# Something to think about.



## LOSTONE

In a world like this world that we live in, maybe DP/DR is not so bad of a thing to have.

Just look at this. 

There are far bigger issues that we should be talking about besides DP/DR.

We should all be demanding the truth from our governments about world affairs and we should all be demanding peace. Instead of demanding peace from those that we put into power, we cower in fear and we deny our own existence in order to avoid the reality that we ourselves are creating by our inaction.

Just something to think about.

Think about all the millions of people starving to death around the world and think about all the people being killed for no reason in unjust wars for the lust of power of the sick and twisted rulers of this world.

Does DP/DR matter at all?

It is just an excuse to avoid reality but reality is here and it is going to affect all of us no matter if we are avoiding reality or fighting to change it.

At least if we we do something with ourselves then we will be happy to know that we did not just allow this world to go down the drain. We at least took a stand for something and did something with our lives.

Stop complaining about DP/DR and stop complaining about your lot in life and do something to change the world that you live in!

Something that I have realized that has cured my DP/DR is that there is a bigger world out there then what is just in my own head and there are bigger issues in the world then my own paranoia and personal fears.

People are dieing!!

We should not just sit around and accept this horrible world that we were born into. We should get up and fight to our deaths to make this a better world.

DP/DR can be used in a very powerful way if you get the mastery over it. I realize that now.

DP/DR is what you make it to be.

It can either be a curse or a blessing.

It all depends on how it is used.

And it depends on your ability to face up to reality and accept whatever is making you cower in fear.. Once you accept your fears and face them then they have no power over you anymore. Once you face DP/DR and you do not fear it and you do not fear living with it for the rest of your life then you can use it for your own will. Most people on here have handed the power of their lives over to their fears, that is very clear to me. It is what I myself did many years ago.

If you look at your fears and you accept them and do not fear them but face them down then your fears will actually turn into assets for you and your weaknesses will turn into power and might and there is no end to the good things that you can accomplish in this world.

It is the same for all of us.

There is a very simple reason that we all have DP/DR.

This world is seriously messed up!

The cure for DP/DR is in taking action to change what we are avoiding. Stop avoiding your fears and stop avoiding reality and start doing something to change it and your Dp/Dr will turn into your very best friend and asset.

It has for me.

I realize now that DP/DR is not a curse unless I make it a curse. I do not any longer view it as a curse, I am fully convinced it can be used as the greatest blessing.

I hope that everyone on this site will wake up soon and realize that the reality that they live in is of their own making.

It is set in stone!

There are people who are planning on killing all of you soon.

Just look up the Georgia Guidestones and you will see what I am talking about.

There is no time to sit around and complain about nothing anymore.

Take action in your life and change the world you live in. If not then do not complain about your situation in life. What can any of us expect from this world and from life if we are not fighting with all our effort for the very best for ourselves? If we spend all our time complaining to ourselves about our lot in life then what good can we expect?

We all must take action.

What action each of us personally takes is up to the individual but it is clear to me that we must take action and do something different then what we have all been doing. If we do not change our behavior then things will only continue to get worse and worse, that is set in stone also.

Just something to think about.


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## Guest

I know ur not the sharpest knife, but man this is just a conspiracy theory LOL dont share this crap man..


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## 17545

Okay, we're all going to die, so having DP/DR for the last years of our lives is a good thing?

Where's the logic?


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## LOSTONE

I did not say we *"are"* going to die.

And I did not say that *DP/DR "is"* a good thing.

It is up to us.

Thats what I believe anyway.

I believe that we humans are responsible for our own actions and or inaction.


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## LOSTONE

Copeful if something is set in *"literal stone granite writing"* then how is it that you are able to deny it's existence?

You don't need to answer.

I already know the answer.

The answer would just be some good information for yourself if you ever figure it out.


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## Guest

Ima go out n write "there are neon green unicorns in lostones ass" WHO ARE YOU TO DENY ITS EXISTANC. Logic?


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## LOSTONE

Copeful If you set up a stone monument and wrote something on it, I would not deny that you wrote something on a stone monument.

Just as I can not deny that you have stated that you believe in Green Unicorns. Those are your words. They may be the words of a crazy person but I will not deny that you have spoken them. They are your words, not mine.

Say whatever you want to say.

I will not deny the words you speak just because you are denying the words of others that is even set in stone.

You are the one that is in denial, that does not have anything to do with me and it does not have anything to do with logic either.

Green unicorns do not exist but that fact does not mean that I would be able to convince someone that is crazy that green unicorns do not exist.

I do not deny that you speak about green unicorns and believe in them simply because I do not believe in green unicorns.

My question to you was a question for you to ask yourself. I do not need the answer because I already know the answer. You may want to think to yourself a little about how you can so easily deny things that exist and are set in stone but then turn around and talk about green unicorns.

This is exactly the mentality that causes bad DP/DR.

Rather then being able to observe things and learn and speak as an intelligent adult, many people would rather cause themselves to go insane and even go so far as to believe in green unicorns before they would accept reality. It is a sad fact of reality but I do accept it because it is the truth.

If you disagree with something or you do not like something then that is fine. Speak your opinion and explain yourself so that others may benefit from any wisdom that you may have. But if you simply outright deny any thought or idea or solid fact that is against your own fantasy reality then you will never escape your own personal never never land.


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## LOSTONE

Here is another so called "conspiracy theory" for you Copeful.

It is called the U.S. Bill of Rights.

They are not set in stone like the Georgia Guidestones but for a long time many people had a great deal of faith in the U.S. Bill of Rights.

Those rights are gone now. Does that mean that the idea behind the U.S. Bill of Rights is a conspiracy?

Then that must also mean that the United States Constitution is also a conspiracy.

I won't state any opinion about politics or anything.

I am only stating facts.

*Using your own logic Copeful, the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights are both conspiracies.*

My thoughts about DP/DR is that most people are actually aware of the facts of reality but they do not want to accept reality, so that is why DP/DR exists.

I think DP/DR is based in fear and I think that it is a result of letting fear become your master.

I have noticed a great deal of fear in many of the people on this forum and that is why many people here are acting up all the time and getting into arguments about pointless things.

Unless everyone is willing to deal with their fears then many of those fears are going to become realities.

There are more important issues that we should be talking about and thinking about rather then DP/DR.

Worldwide it seems that humanity is all wound up getting overly upset about pointlessness and this leaves the important issues unattended at our own peril.

I am not going to get into a pointless argument.

I just wanted to post something to get people thinking.

Goodbye.


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## Pablo

Man you cant take that seriously, they even made spelling mistakes on the guidestones :lol: . You say 'set in stone' like that is something important, any bunch of nuts can go and do a few engravings and it looks like they did.


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## Cam

LOL @ the stones


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## Guest

?People are dieing!!?

I?ve witness people ?on the internet? dieing, being murdered, torn apart, executed. I?m not in denial of these matters happening, I?ve never under looked them? back in 2003 I force myself to ?watch? these negativities because other?s around me never took a second to think about other?s sorrow, they just don?t have the time, ability or they just don?t see ?the point? (What good comes of dwelling on these matters?). How many women/men do you think are being raped every second of our life time? Need I make you aware as to how I got my own DR/DP?

?Does DP/DR matter at all??

I received my own DP/DR due to me dwelling on these matters? or at lease they increased it to overwhelming levels. So yes, DP/DR does matter because it shields you from the truth you didn?t want to forsake, because you?re only moments away from either braking down, or going insane.

Another reason for me witnessing them was because? I was that numb, I needed something sickening to force myself to feel, only to learn that I would slowly adapt to them.






?Delusional?... reminds me of ?Scientology?? the people who are going to save us from ?this? are only doing it because it gives them relevance to their own life. They believe they are heroes, so they also are blame for this delusional belief.

?Each to their own?? although it?s unfair to make anxious people even more anxious.


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## Guest

:roll:

I just got to say lostone, this IS a joke? you are not serious when you respond me? 
You are aware u make less sense than a schizophrenic trying to prove why the green goblings are running after him and that they shrink into warhammers when others look at them?


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## Ludovico

*Lay off the peyote*, lostone.


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## Cam

> *Lay off the peyote, lostone*


LMAO Ludovico, thanks man 8)


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## CECIL

LOSTONE said:


> We should all be demanding the truth from our governments about world affairs and we should all be demanding peace. Instead of demanding peace from those that we put into power, we cower in fear and we deny our own existence in order to avoid the reality that we ourselves are creating by our inaction.


Well said 

What are those stones? Just some random stuff people carved or what?


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## Guest

Those stones can be summed up in 1 word "bullshit".
And it really frightenes me more that humanity has so low critical thinking skill than it frightenes me that this world is full of crazy killers.

This is nothin but a conspiracy theory, honestly.


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## LOSTONE

> What are those stones? Just some random stuff people carved or what?


CECIL that is the most I expect from anyone.

Just that people face up to reality and question it.

Maybe those stones mean nothing. Maybe they mean everything.

There are many issues that deserve more attention then DP/DR.

Sadly many people do not want to even spend a moment to consider any possibilities outside of their own comfort zone of reality that they have made for themselves. This is why so many people are trapped with DP/DR. Because the thought patterns of many people just keeps going around and around and always ending up in exactly the same place. Because the fear of questioning your own beliefs and your own ideas about reality are to scary to consider.

People believe in Ghosts and Aliens and Bigfoot without even a small crumb of evidence. Yet other things that are very clear and standing 16ft high etched in granite, are things that are dismissed from the mind immediately. And these are things called a conspiracy. All I want to know is why? Why is it so easy for people to dismiss reality and then also so easy for people to make up a false reality and then complain about their own false reality?

I can not prove anything to anyone who would not accept any proof given about some specific issue.

With DP/DR there is no way any doctor or any medication could possibly heal the victim unless the DP/DR sufferer is willing to come out of their shell themselves. It is the same with everything. Nobody can force a belief onto anyone else and nobody can really brainwash anyone else. Everything that is believed in and everything that is known in this world is a result of peoples own desires.

From my point of view it seems that most peoples desires is simply an avoidance of pain and an avoidance of whatever causes fear in them.

This is what bothers me. Maybe I am wrong about everything but it seems that most doctors agree with the idea that almost all mental illness is in some way connected with fear. 
So my only hope is that people will toss fear out the window and start facing things and stop avoiding things. I hope that people will ask questions that they have avoided all their lives and I hope that people will question even their own beliefs and their own reality because I personally believe that most people on this earth are living in their own personal fantasy world inside their own head.

For many people, their fantasy actually is based in fear and even causes fear so that it is more like a prison then a "good" fantasy that would be enjoyable to live in.

I am aware of the possibility that I am wrong about everything that I think I know about the world I live in. My only hope is that everyone else will find the same awareness, that others will become aware of their own limitations. Then with that awareness they will go out and start questioning everything and searching with all their might to find out for themselves what the truth is. Maybe because of our limitations, it may be impossible for us to know what really is the truth. But I assure all of you that if you make it a lifestyle to avoid even questioning your own fantasy then it is almost guaranteed that everything you think and believe in during your life is going to be wrong. This is because there are people in this world who understand human thinking and human behavior very well and they are doing everything possible to manipulate others for their own selfish advantage.

If we just sit and allow ourselves to be manipulated without even questioning what our own beliefs and ideas are then there is no hope for any of us.

Cecil at least you asked the question



> What are those stones? Just some random stuff people carved or what?


It makes me very, very happy simply to know that you asked about something rather then quickly dismissing a thought.

Maybe those stones are just "random stuff".

My point for posting this was not to make a point about the "NEW WORLD ORDER" . I already basically knew what the reaction to this post would be before I put it up. I was only hoping to make a point about the way people with DP/DR think.

My point is to try and show people the flaw with their own way of thinking about things. The flaw is that out of everyone that posed here, the only person that asked for more information was CECIL.

CECIL you probably already have your own beliefs yourself and that is fine. I am not against beliefs. I have beliefs myself. What I am against is the mindset that we should all dismiss any information that goes against our beliefs as if that information is not real. This is contributing to a lie. It is a way of thinking that amounts to lying to ourselves.

My beliefs might be wrong about everything but I try not to dismiss information that goes against what I believe because I realize that by doing this thing I am making it almost impossible for myself to really know the truth about anything.

If you have a mindset that makes you quickly dismiss information before even considering it at all, then I don't think there is any hope for you to ever be cured of DP/DR because your thought patterns are stuck.

I think a lot of people around here have been telling themselves that there is no cure for DP/DR. This is an example of what I am talking about. If you believe that there is no cure for DP/DR then their probably won't be one for you. If you believe that their is a cure then you are probably already finding your way out of DP/DR. If you believe their may be a cure then their is hope for you.

At the very least, we should let ourselves be open up to other possibilities, rather then just only accepting information that backs up our own personal reality.

If people do not even consider possibilities in reality that spark fear in their minds then these people will always be a slave to fear.

This is why I think so many people have DP/DR these days. It is because people are allowing themselves to become a slave to their fears and to their own fantasy.

CECIL I hope maybe you understand what I am trying to say here.

My point is that maybe my own beliefs are all wrong. Maybe I am crazy.

But you are all very unwise if you do not even consider what things I might have to say simply because it makes you feel uneasy.

If you did consider ideas that are disturbing to you then you would find peace in disproving those ideas or in proving them. One way or another you would have peace of mind in knowing for sure about your own beliefs and your own perception of things.

My thought about DP/DR is that it is simply an avoidance problem. 
I have come to that conclusion after spending time in this site reading the things people have to say around here. People complain about the same things over and over and over and over again but most people around here will never listen to any advise at all or take into consideration that they themselves are causing their own nightmare. I think I understand why now. And I also understand myself much better from spending time on this site reading and thinking about what others have to say here.

CECIL you might think I am insane but I have hope for you because at least I can see that you open yourself up to another possibility. 
The possibility that maybe I have something important to say even though it might be disturbing information.

As far as the NWO goes, I don't really care that much.

I have my own religious beliefs that God will not allow this earth to be ruined anyway.

I do consider other ideas though even if they may be disturbing to think about. 
This allows my knowledge about things to grow.

This way I know that if something that goes against my own beliefs and my own personal understanding of things then it will not be to much of a shock to me and I will be able to deal with it and not force myself into DP/DR land or even further into complete schizophrenia.

Rather then saying things like "Lay off the peyote, lostone".

People should be asking questions or giving out information that would clear up any doubts or any contradiction thoughts. This is called *"Dialog"*. And I have come to realize that people with DP/DR have a very serious problem with *"Dialog"*

I understand why now and this understanding has helped me to rid myself of DP/DR. I realize what DP/DR is now and I realize my own power over it. It is the same for everyone here I think. DP/DR is a personal prison that each individual sets up for themselves to ward off outside disturbances. The way out of DP/DR is to deal with those things that bother you "whatever those things are" and then move on with your life.

Just think about the way that people talk to each other around here on this site. It is not normal communication or behavior most of the time. At least I don't consider it to be normal. I have watched a lot of pointless arguments arise here and I have even been in the middle of some of them. I don't think that most other forums have these kinds of issues.

I think people act up around here and resort to saying things like "Lay off the peyote, lostone" and people resort to name calling because that is all that is available. It is just a defence mechanism, or as the dictionary says *"An unconscious process that tries to reduce the anxiety associated with instinctive desires"*

I personally believe that if those anxieties were dealt with in a healthy way then this unconscious process would no longer be needed. DP/DR would no longer be needed!

Thats what I believe anyway.

And since I don't smoke peyote, I have a good feeling that my ideas are probably pretty close to the truth.

By the way, yes I do believe that DP/DR is a bad thing.

But how did you people get DP/DR in the first place?
I know how I got it before.

It is something to think about. The thought pattern that brought you people to DP/DR is the same thought that keeps you stuck there.

Thought patterns have to change or DP/DR will never go away.

My first few post are not really that important. Each individual issue we face in this life is not necessarily important at all in itself. What is important is that we face these issues and not avoid them.

Whatever the issue may be.


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## Guest

Why is it everytime I read one of your post it flashes me back to how homework felt in high school? 
Ever considered becoming a journalist or something?



LOSTONE said:


> People believe in Ghosts and Aliens and Bigfoot without even a small crumb of evidence. Yet other things that are very clear and standing 16ft high etched in granite, are things that are dismissed from the mind immediately. And these are things called a conspiracy. All I want to know is why? Why is it so easy for people to dismiss reality and then also so easy for people to make up a false reality and then complain about their own false reality?


Man, how the fuck did you do in logic at school?

Listen, believing in ghosts are retarded, aliens are up for discussion in scientific terms but as for visiting earth? hell motherfucking no.
Big foot? Thats a myth like Santa Claus noone seriously believes that?
Have you seen 16 ft advertisement lies screaming ? "EAT THIS PILL AND ALL UR WRINKLES DISSAPEAR PLUS YOULL LOSE 80 pounds in 80 hours ".
Size means truth? whutthefuck is that about?
With your logic, you should be a atheist, cause atheist made the BIGGEST DISCOVERIES IN HUMAN HISTORY
The next thing i must adress:
Here you are, Mr I believe in Sky daddy and complain about people makin up shit about reality. Wtf

Wheres ur evidence for Mr YAWEH? NO WHERE BUT UR STUPID FUCKIN WORTHLESS BOOK called TEH BIBLE.

Listen man, great topic, it was a much missed laughter but helll man, think for a second next time and maybe you can be in on the laughing sharing conspiracies, join a skeptic forum, practice critical thinking and maybe you lose your religion to and can join reality with the rest of sane humans

Another thing; while its true MANY disorders in mental health is anxiety related, serious ones aren't.
A schio might think his god, no fear, doesn't make him sane

Kind of like you, do you fear God? I dno, but he doesnt exist so, hows that delusion rooted in fear? Fear of death ? maybe your onto something... hmmm

Anyway, fuck this conspiracy shit man.


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## LOSTONE

Copeful your question about crazy people is a good one.

The reason your example can still be fear related is because the illness can be sparked by fear. Also the fear of what is "REAL" is continuously stronger then the fear of what is not "real", for whatever reason. With more serious illnesses I don't believe that fear is the only issue but I think it is a very big one.

Copeful you actually help to prove my point with the way that you act.

Maybe my beliefs are wrong but my point is that you do not even consider them. This I believe is because of fear. And I believe that this is why you seem to be so upset. I have seen a lot of people get really upset about their beliefs and I understand why know. People get upset and throw a fit but at the same time they do not consider any contradicting information at all. This I think is because of your own personal fear of losing your own beliefs or your own personal reality that you "choose" to believe in.

Personally if someone has something to say that is against the bible then I would not dismiss it without at least considering the information and trying to justify how I can continue on in my beliefs with this new information. I do not just throw the contradiction out of my mind as if it does not exist. This is because I am not afraid of losing my beliefs if they are actually wrong.

This is why I actually enjoy "real" dialog with other people. Even if those people have contradicting views from my own. This dialog helps me to grow in my own knowledge about things.

I am aware that there is not much dialog that ever takes place on this forum though and I am trying to point out why. Personally I think it is because of fear. The fear that maybe your own reality is a false one and your own beliefs and your own ideas are all wrong. The fear is so strong in people around here that dialog with many people here is not even possible.


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## Guest

CECIL x six times? You like that name don?t you LOSTONE. Perhaps CECIL was too ignorant to use the resources you gave out to find out the answer for himself, he ?simply? asked others to explain it for him. And one of the thousands of reasons he may have wanted others to explain for him, could have been due to lack of his own time.



LOSTONE said:


> But you are all very unwise if you do not even consider what things I might have to say simply because it makes you feel uneasy.


Would seem some one has allowed their ego to get the better of them, you?re more then welcome to believe your thoughts and ?feelings? are ?that? wise, that others ?should? take them in, yet I see that as a brain washing technique.

Why so clingy to CECIL, LOSTONE? don?t you have anything/any one else to hold on to?


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## Guest

Copeful... you remind me of Chris Tucker... bless ya *Thumbs up* :lol:


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## Guest

Why wont god heal amputees man? wtf?
People praise him for healing their skincancer but he cant help people who blew up their legs for him in war? where the fuck do u reason that?

You claim you would atleast consider the arguement critically and openminded even if its against ur beliefs to see if u could justify holding ur belief?

What about physics? jesus cant have walked on water, but there a thing goes off in ur head "but he's god, he defy laws of physics" I ask: "WHERE HAVE USEEN THIS? MENTION ONE TIME U HAVE EVER SEEN LAWS OF PHYSICS BEING BENT? N E V E R.. So where u get this shit from?

The byebel, why? cause you were suicidal, deseperate for hope, desperate for meaning in life. (Which i by no means make fun of don't get me wrong) 
This is a serious situation u found urself placed in, desperate times, make humans do stupid things (like comiting suicide) luckily, you found something that helped you, if that was the bible, great.
If the bible saved ur life, thats great, don't get me wrong.
Though, I could say the same a bout, hmm Lord Of the Rings, think of a kid, wanting to die, then he reads Lotr and finds out he loves reading and hope in the world, doesn't kill himself, doesn't mean the story was real...

Listen, if u need to believe in flying pink unicorns to live, thats sad, but i wont kill ur beliefs, I feel its like taking santa claus away from a orphan...
I cannot do that


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## LOSTONE

> Why so clingy to CECIL


Actually me and CECIL disagree about many things.

I think he has actually disagreed with me about almost everything I have ever posted.

The answer about those stones is actually that nobody knows.

The person who put them up was an anonymous man that gave a fake name.

So in this case, the conclusion you come to about the meaning is really up to you.

Your conclusion about the stones is not really what is important though.

If you looked up information about them yourself then thats good. 
Or if you just ignored this entire post all together then thats fine also.

But why get upset and say things like "Lay off the peyote"?

Did I do something wrong?

All I did was put up an idea and some information about something.

If you believe in something and you have ideas you want to express then express them and explain why.

Usually the only expression I see around here is an expression of fear.

Again, I realize I could very well be completely wrong about everything.

You might want to consider my opinion anyway.

If your not afraid to consider my opinions then there is no reason to get upset.


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## LOSTONE

Copeful I don't want to talk about religion on here.

I have already posed hours of information on here about the subject.

That was one subject that CECIL did not agree with me on.

I do not avoid contradicting thoughts about the bible though.

I would not ever have been able to build up any faith in the bible if I did not deal with those contradiction ideas.

Personally I still deal with my own personal contradicting ideas and I don't let myself just dismiss them because they go against what I want to believe. I do what I can to prove myself right or wrong so that I myself can be sure of myself and not be in fear.

I realize I am limited and I accept this fact and this is why I am not living in fear.

I don't want this topic to get transformed, I don't have the time.

I will not just quickly dismiss your opinions about God Copeful and I don't have time to repost all the information that I have already posted on this forum before.

I just wanted to get people thinking about something other then the same old same old that people are always expressing around here.


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## Guest

You cling to disapproval or one of thousands other negativities.

I personally believe the odds are strong that he?ll disagree with you there, and a friendship could possible bond.

My conclusion of the words carved into the stones is that they do not exist; I would focus only on the stones, not on the nonsense written upon them.

Is there something wrong with receiving negative feedback?

I become upset out of considerate for you, because you?re feeding on nonsense that will only reinforce your disorder? drink as much as you desire of it? I seek to drink from the glass of reality.


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## Guest

Man "lay off the peyote" was probably a joke from his side.
Like someone comes a long screaming "JESUS SAVED ME" you say: "dude lay off the ecstasy".

U didnt put out information, you put out crap, pure stinking old crap, who wants that on a forum?
I hand you the toilet paper man...

Some people on here could get set off by that shit, inconsiderate of you, a fucking sin is what it is, dont you believe in doomsday either way? shouldnt you be cheering with a cross "YEYE GODS WRATH STRIKES!", you say "LETS IGNORE DPDR AND ADD PARANOIA INSTEAD"

ofcourse people got problems with it man, seriously....

w
t
f


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## Guest

Gees... how can you not like Copeful? He's da shit!


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## LOSTONE

> Is there something wrong with receiving negative feedback?


No.

That is part of what a dialog is between two people.

Thats not what I have a problem with.

And thats not what I think causes DP/DR.



> You cling to disapproval or one of thousands other negativities.


I am not sure why you said that.



> My conclusion of the words carved into the stones is that they do not exist


Those words do exist.

Maybe they do not mean anything but those words do exist.

If I knew that someone honestly believed in Santa then I would not try to prove them wrong simply by telling them that they are crazy or that they are believing in a conspiracy or that Santa does not exist.

What I would do is get the historical information on Santa's creation and prove to the person when and where the idea about Santa came from. I could even explain why Santa is believed to wear a "Red" coat rather then a "blue" one. Then by given this person real information, it would be up to that person to either accept the information or dismiss it.

My point is that most people around here are the types that would only always dismiss truthful information that goes against their own ideas. I think that this has a lot to do with DP/DR.

But that is just my opinion.


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## Guest

ohhhhhhhh, 
http://www.humantruth.info
http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com

read those two sites and come back atheist, if u don't come back atheist, u didn't read, thus u disproved urself and should never open your mouth again unless it's a standup comedy show or daily chat about everyday shit...


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## LOSTONE

> LETS IGNORE DPDR AND ADD PARANOIA INSTEAD


DP/DR is paranoia.

It is basically the same thing.

Or it is the effect of paranoia, the effect of the paranoia of fear.

The result of being in fear of fear itself.

Thats my opinion.

Obviously many people disagree with me about a lot of things here.

That does not bother me though.

I am no longer bothered by that. I don't let it bother me and I don't let fear bother me anymore. This is why I don't waste my time complaining about DP/DR on this website anymore. Because I don't have it anymore.


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## Guest

DPDR is not paranoia, paranoia means thinking people is out to get you.
DPDR is thinking people dont exist and not even u self exist.
Theres a difference, your a racist ain't you? ever since OJ was suspect?
You make such lame statements it doesnt even make sense, is fearing a robber with a gun aimed at you paranoia?

Anyway, your cured? good for you, howcome u come back here to share crap?

share this with your witnesses, they'll probably buy into it, ask them to donate 500$ dollar each too and you'll stop it, then bail off, and you'll make a fortune


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## LOSTONE

Copeful since you persist in talking about religion.

I will only say that the bible does not say that God will be healing anyone here now.

It actually says "Woe" to the earth because the Devil has come down to you in great anger.

*Re 12:12
On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.?*

It also says that the Devil is the one who actually rules this world.

*1 John 5:19
We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one.*

So the fact that people are in pain and misery here on this earth is actually a fact that backs up what the bible says.

That is the only point I am going to make about the bible or religion on here anymore.

I don't have time to talk about this forever.

As I said, I have already posted a great deal of information on the subject of religion here. If you want then you can look up my posts and read about what I have had to say about the subject.

I have to go now.


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## Guest

LOSTONE said:


> Is there something wrong with receiving negative feedback?
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> That is part of what a dialog is between two people.
> 
> Thats not what I have a problem with.
> 
> And thats not what I think causes DP/DR.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You cling to disapproval or one of thousands other negativities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am not sure why you said that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My conclusion of the words carved into the stones is that they do not exist
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those words do exist.
> 
> Maybe they do not mean anything but those words do exist.
Click to expand...

Then you haven?t done anything wrong LOSTONE.

If you?re no sure, you have an opinion? wish to share?

They exist within people?s memories, although I will forsake them in mine when this thread closes.


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## Guest

1: LOSTONE 6:66

"Thou shalt all' die mafackahz, government conspiring methlabs in thy basement wit Al Queda"

Dude i didnt even read ur post when I saw u started quoting that book again.


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## Ludovico

The Peyote joke was a _joke_. Copeful, surely you can find some humour or at least irony in this fact:

You posted a conspiracy theory thread on a forum full of mentally ill people.


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## Guest

Yeah man definately, its fun as hell, ecspecially the fact he doesn't understand it's a issue.

Also funny how he says the stone blocks must be true and validates it by refering to big foot oO?


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## LOSTONE

You guys miss my point completely.


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## Guest

Please give us directions, because the ones you have given out are illegible to me.


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## Ludovico

Whoops I meant to put 'Lostone' not 'Copeful' in that post up there. Still got my point across though, I think.


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## LOSTONE

Emulated Puppet}eer I can't just come out and say things strait out on this site anymore.

I have done that in the past and so have many others. It don't work.

People have to find their own way.

I don't think anyone can be told the cure to DP/DR.

I think it has to be figured out by the person who has it.

All I was trying to do is to get people around here to see something about themselves.

I already had a good idea about how this thread would turn out because I have been visiting this forum for a long time.

Threads like this always end up the same way.

I am just trying to get people to think about why?

Who do people get so upset so quickly around here?

Why are conflicting opinions so disturbing to people who suffer from DP/DR?

It is something to think about.

Why are people with DP/DR so defensive and sensitive?

These are things that I have thought about a lot in the past and thinking about these questions has helped me deal with my own DP/DR.

We all have different opinions around here and we all have different ideas and beliefs but we also all have something in common.

It is the things that we have in common here that I have spent a lot of time thinking about. There are people here that I have really not liked and there are people here who have upset me but I realize that these people have the same illness as myself and what I see wrong with the people around me here is actually just a reflection of my own flaws.

This is why I am trying to get people to think about why they are so uptight.

Why would a real conspiracy only cause people to get upset rather then causing people to express themselves in a way so that others could benefit?

No matter if what I posed was a conspiracy or not, thats not important. What is important is the reaction. It is a reaction that I expected. Not a reaction that I would expect while talking to normal people but surely a reaction I expected here. So why? Why should I always expect a negative reaction around here for any idea I might post unless that idea is extremely positive and politically correct for everyone?

I think it is because of fear.

My fear is what caused my DP/DR and I think fear is the cause for just about everyones illness. Doctors seem to agree with this thought so it is something to think about.

What is it that makes a thought or an idea so terrible?

I think it is that if any thought or idea is in conflict with the reality you believe in, then it is hurtful to your own identity and for this reason it is feared. That fear is what causes DP/DR I think.

I think that in order to ride ourselves of DP/DR, these fears must be faced. Meaning that everyone needs to accept fearful things as being real. Even if these things might actually be just a lie or a bad idea. They should be accepted as being real.

For example if you are afraid of the idea of God then I would suggest reading the bible and learning about religions because this will actually help you to deal with that fear. This way you will truly know either that God is a lie or that God is in fact in existence. Then you will know the truth for yourself and you will not feel the need so much to prove your beliefs to others because your fear will be gone.

I think people fear all kinds of things. Actually I think people around here are in fear of almost everything that is a threat to their own identity and this is why it is almost impossible to have a real conversation with anyone around here.

Ideas and opinions are shot down so quickly around here that most people with any good information about DP/DR have already left this site a long time ago.

This is because a lot of people with DP/DR do not even want a cure. They say that they do but their own identity has actually attached to DP/DR and now the fear has transformed into a fear not of DP/DR but a fear of being normal.

I don't know.

Maybe I am wrong.

It is something to think about though.

I mean what would it be like around here if everyone assumed that everyone else knew more then they did? Just think about what it would be like here if we all viewed ourselves as being the lowest in knowledge and the lowest in wisdom.

We would probably all be a lot better off I think.

I don't think this is ever going to be the case around here though because I think people with DP/DR have way to much fear built up to even consider any other reality except for the one they are believing in. This is why it seems like there are so many self proclaimed geniuses around here I think. It is a defense against an attack on personal identity. DP/DR I think is a defense against other things that actually cause more fear then DP/DR itself.

So I think that in order to rid ourselves of DP/DR, we must face our fears.

For myself, if my belief is in the bible and most of my identity and what I relate with is in the bible and in that belief then I will face my fear of everything that is contradicting the bible. I can only do this by accepting other ideas and looking into them to see if they have any credence at all.

I used some info about something relating to the NWO conspiracy for a reason.

I don't care that much about what is going on in politics because according to my religion I should not even speak out about political opinions. My religious belief is that the only Kingdom and the only politics I should be speaking about is the Kingdom of Jehovah God. So I don't really care about the politics of the U.S.A.

I would like to point out though how quickly my post was shot down as being irrelavant though. And it was not ignored but rather people were very vocal about expressing their view of something in this thread not even being in existence.

I would guess that none of the people in this thread know much about politics or about current laws. I would even guess that most of the people on here do not have much information to share about the NWO for good or bad. If people did have information then that would have probably been posted.

For example like we were talking about Santa Claus before.

Well if I felt the desire to post a comment toward someone who put up a thread expressing a belief in Santa then I would post a link like this one http://www.the-north-pole.com/history/index.htm that shows the history of Santa. This way I am at least giving someone some useful information.

Nobody in this thread gave any useful information to go against the idea I stated in the first post. Why?

My post was not ignored. Actually it seems to have sparked some controversy maybe.

My point is that I think this is what is wrong with people who have DP/DR.

I think it is all about fear. Fear of anything that is a threat to your own identity and your own beliefs.

It is pretty clear to me because of the behavior of people around here.

The behavior of people on this site is notably different then the behavior of people on other forums and it is notably different from the people I see in the world every day.

I think the reason for this is because people with DP/DR are all living in fear and I am just trying to point this out.

Maybe I sparked fear by doing this, maybe this is why people get upset. But the fear is not mine, and I did not create it, I only brought it to the surface.


----------



## LOSTONE

Yeah Ludovico.

I understand people around here are mentally ill.

Thats actually what I am trying to point out.

At the same time people around here complain about their illness they are holding a belief that their is nothing wrong with them.

It is called doublethink.

It is this way of thinking that causes DP/DR.

"To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies ? all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth."

I believe that this doublethink only exists and is only possible because of "fear".

I have been told that those stones do not exists when they clearly do.

Copeful asked questions raising doubt about the bible and then when those questions were answered he quickly dismissed the answer as if the answer did not exist.

This is doublethink. It is a common reaction of people these days and it is why people are so easily scammed and manipulated. It is because your own mind is lying to you and you do not even care because that lie is like a protective wall that protects you. Unless you are all able to let down that protective wall then you are signing your life over to DP/DR.

It is not the things causing fear that cause people to go insane. It is that those insane people let themselves continue living in fear.

If I post something upsetting to people that have a mental illness it is not my fault that these people become upset. I can not force this upon people. It comes from within the individual. If someone gets overly upset about some opposing viewpoint or some idea that is disturbing to their own conscious then this is their own problem. This is not because of the idea or the viewpoint but it is because of the fear of the one listening to the idea.

Even facts are often responded to by outright aggression and facts are often treated as if they are not facts. Why?

This is because even facts can spark fear in people and facts can be a threat to someones own identity or their own beliefs that they choose to believe. More often then not, people would rather accept a lie then to face their fears and accept the truth about things.

I am not saying that I am above this way of thinking. I am saying that this is the messed up way of thinking that causes DP/DR. That if you let yourself live in fear and you can not face your fears then you will never get out of your own personal prison because you are the very one who made the prison that you are living in.

So if someone says something that bothers you or makes you feel uneasy, or you find yourself in a situation that makes you feel uneasy, don't be so quick to avoid the bad feeling. Don't be so quick to avoid a idea or situation that may seem scary or bad to you. Maybe it is a situation or an idea that really should be avoided but just don't be so quick to jump to conclusions.

When you continue to trash any information or anything in reality that goes against your own personal reality then you may be living out your entire life inside of a lie and not even know it. For some people that lie is very painful and even tormenting but the fear of losing the lie is even more powerful then sticking to the lie.

If you open yourself up and you do not allow yourself to fear any thought or idea or situation then I do not think there is any room for DP/DR to exist.

Face every situation in life with the mindset that you are open to any possibility and that no possibility is fearful to you, do this and I think Dp/Dr will vanish.

I am not saying to not believe in anything. As I said, I have my own beliefs. I do not fear other beliefs or ideas though as many people around here obviously do. I do not fear other beliefs or ideas and for that reason I have no need to dismiss them or treat them as if they were not real. 
Thus I eliminate the need for doublethink and DP/DR.

I think that even when the cure for DP/DR is given to many people they usually deny it as if it does not exist. This is because I think many people are in such great fear that even if DP/DR is very tormenting to them, they do not truly desire to be cured of DP/DR because they fear the loss of it. They fear what life would be like without DP/DR more then the DP/DR itself.

So my suggestion is for everyone is to take a good look in the mirror and ask yourselves if you are living a lie. Ask yourself if you have let fear control you so well that you have assigned your life and all that you are (your entire identity) over to a lie.

Ask yourself is DP/DR even something that is real?
Or is it just a figment of your imagination?

Ask yourself, am I believing in everything that is not true and dismissing everything that is truth simply because it is comfortable to my own identity? Am I making up my own realty as I go along in life or am I actually perceiving reality in an honest and fearless way?

If we can not deal with an idea from the bible or some idea on some stone then how could we ever possibly question our very own identity or our own ways of thinking?

Unless we are able to *fearlessly question things* and look for answers even if they do not seem right to us then we will always be stuck in a virtual prison inside our own minds. A prison that we have made for ourselves.

DP/DR is a self created illusion of the mind.

An illusion made up out of fear. Get rid of the fear and the illusion will vanish.

If you do not believe in God then you should still not have any reason to fear the belief in God.

If you do not believe that our own government may turn into a Nazi style government or worse then you should have no reason to fear the idea that maybe the US government is turning into a dictatorship.

If you have no fear then you can prove conflicting views and ideas wrong. You can do this because you are able to think about facts and real issues rather then losing your cool and resorting to name calling and outbursts of emotions.

To say that DP/DR is an illness that causes people to lose their emotions is a lie. It is obvious that people around here are extremely emotional. I think these emotions and these fears are the very cause of DP/DR.

I do not think we should allow ourselves to fear anything anymore.

None of us should allow ourselves to fear any idea or anything at all because it is this fear that can do more damage then anything else.

Maybe my ideas are all wrong.

I don't understand why they should be feared though. If you really know I am wrong and you don't want to waste time to prove me wrong then just avoid the topic. If you know I am wrong about something and you can prove it then do that!
*I have nothing against someone proving me wrong. I am not afraid.*


----------



## Pablo

Lostone I think you have a point about fear and about people fearing to challenge their belief systems, I think that relates to dp a lot, but what that has to do with those stones I dont know.

I was open to the ideas written on those stones and didnt ask any questions to you because I read the link which you provided, which I assume most other people interested did too, and I wasnt convinced that they represent anything other than a crock of shite. There were even spelling mistakes on the stones.

To be honest there are much better ways to expand your mind and change your thinking than to read about some stones some bloke put on a hill, there are far more strange things happening in the world than that.


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## Guest

I used to fear the thought there is no extra divine meaning with life, although i was a agnostic all my life, I hadnt made up my mind, when it came upon me we are just lucky to ever be born and live then die. First felt like wowwww, but really it makes NO difference.

If anyone is afraid of being challeneged it is LOSTONE, but he has been so brainwashed, Jesus himself could come and say the bible was wrong and he still wouldn't believe it.


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## Rozanne

Copeful said:


> I hadnt made up my mind, when it came upon me we are just lucky to ever be born and live then die. First felt like wowwww, but really it makes NO difference.


Ya see, to me that is a divine revelation. A friend of mine's brother killed himself and I wondered how his family, especially his mother, could ever recover from it. It then occurred to me that if one could accept the nature of life, ie. life, death, illness, inadequacy, jealousy and everything else in between, just as it is, and live with peace....that state of acceptance would itself be a divine relationship. Perhaps I'm wrong, but in any case, it sounds a nice to state to exist in, one open to love and capable of accepting adversity, in ones own life and others. Perhaps that is peace, and it is an angelic state ie. a little closer to God than how one lived before.


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## Guest

Why do you need God? Like , whats the difference? Ill tell you the differene, since god doesnt exist, life is 10x more important and we should question before we kill each other, cause theres no coming bak.
If your a christian, why not just kill someone? they go to a better place? so u'd be doing them a favour, so you see....

faith = retarded


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## LOSTONE

Pablo you have a good point but what do people spend their time thinking about and what do people spend their time doing?

If there are more important things to talk about then Britny Spears or the Georgia Guidestones then why are we not talking about these things?



> To be honest there are much better ways to expand your mind and change your thinking than to read about some stones some bloke put on a hill, there are far more strange things happening in the world than that.


Yes their are.

There are very real things taking place now. 
Not just ideas but real things that are taking place that will affect everyone and nobody seems to care.

Why?

Why are we not talking about these things?

I think it is because humanity has been turned into one massive cowardice.

I think it is because of the confusion we are surrounded by and this confusion creates fear and apathy. For that reason I think most people are only concerned with issues that are not any threat at all to their own personal fantasy world.

I put this up because I feel that most people are allowing their existence on earth to mean nothing.

People look for the meaning of life and never find it and tell themselves there is no meaning. The meaning to life is whatever meaning each living creature puts into their own life.

So lets all agree that these stones mean nothing.

What about everything else. What about all the other issues?
What about the fact that the USA is using chemical weapons on innocent civilians in Iraq? What about the fact that the USA has spread depleted uranium (Toxic Waste) all over the planet?

Yes these are issues that people would think we should not talk about and these are issues that don't sit well with any of us. Issues we don't want to face.

These are obviously issues that mentally ill people should not even talk about because the issues themselves only cause more craziness amongst crazy people.

Well I do not believe that.

I personally believe that the avoidance of what is important is exactly why so many people live in fear. I think it is why so many people are miserable.

Because we are all aware of the issues and deep down we all know the truth about the world we live in, but we have been conned into doing nothing. We have been conned into sitting around all day complaining about our own apathy and our DP/DR while the whole world falls apart around us.

And most people I think have lost the understanding that the power to change the world exists inside their own heads. I think people have lost the understanding that their own mental health is a matter of their own personal choices.

Rather then talking about any meaningful issues, I think that people are in fear to even bring these issues up anymore.

Maybe I am wrong but I hold myself and all other human beings personally responsible for the situation that I am finding myself in. The world is messed up and I blame all of you as well as myself for messing it up.

I think it is sad that we are not talking about the things that really matter anymore. I believe that the generations of humans that lived on this earth before us were much braver and much more active and happier human beings. Even in the dark ages, I think people were happier then they are now. Because I think people are actually living in more fear now then they were during the dark ages.

I think that the key to being mentally healthy and the key for happiness is to face our fears and start talking about things that we feel powerless against.

Whatever the issue is. There are many issues to talk about.

I don't feel that we are giving enough attention toward any of them.

Personally I believe that humanity is becoming way to apathetic about everything and it really makes me sad.

I don't visit dpselfhelp much anymore at all because I don't want to fill my mind with this kind of information anymore. 
The continuous complaining about life and complaining about "I don't feel real" and whatever else.

I am trying to face my own fears and move on with my life. I just stopped by to try and get people thinking abound here. To try and get people thinking about why they are on dpselfhelp in the first place.

Maybe it is because you are all avoiding something more important.

I know that is why I came onto this site.

I let DP/DR mean more to me then what was causing it.

Thats why I lived in a mental prison for 10 years.

Maybe my issues are not your issues but it is clear that everyone here does have issues. Whatever those issues are, those are the issues that should be dealt with. Even if those issues seem overwhelming. Even if those issues seem far more powerful then you will ever be. At least if you are doing your best to face your challenges and you take them head on then I don't think there is any reason to fear. I think fear is just the result of inaction.

I don't know, these are just my thoughts.

Personally it makes me happy just to change the subject matter around here a little. I just wanted to get people thinking, even if I only accomplished getting people to think that I am insane. At least I am not on here complaining about not being able to feel that I exist.


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## Guest

"atleast im not on here complaining i dont feel i exist" this forum IS designed for that disorder u know....

Ill go easy on you man, listen, fuck those stonerocks...
U gotta learn critical thinking, buying into conspiracies can be easy, I admit a few years ago the 9/11 conspiracy theories had my mind goin for awhile, made me question it. Cause u never know what the corrupt government is up to, but bitch please.
It's conspiracies, keep a lil sense while reading it.

Another thing: if the government was gon kill so many people, they'd hide it like u said, true, therefore they wrote it on 16ft fuckin stone rocks? HOW FUCKIN MUCH CRACK THEY HAND U IN CHURCH MAN?

dude..
fuck...
im out of words...

read the dictionary if u want more im sure ur selective mind will find a hidden message in their , like the BIBLE CODE, u prolly believe in that too eh?


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## CECIL

Actually the reason I asked instead of researching myself was because I was lazy 

Lostone you have a point about fear and about people questioning themselves. We do all need to question ourselves and our beliefs. Its human nature to become restricted to one set of belief patterns and to blatantly reject anything that doesn't fit (See: Copeful's posts). I must admit its kind of surprising to see this thread from you after the endless debates we had a while back, lol. I guess Copeful is PE#1 now days 



> Another thing: if the government was gon kill so many people, they'd hide it like u said, true, therefore they wrote it on 16ft flower* stone rocks? HOW flower* MUCH CRACK THEY HAND U IN CHURCH MAN?


Its called Plausible Deniability. Now if anyone accuses the government of planning this they can say "Oh you believe that hoo-ha some random guy put on 16 ft rocks? Lol, you are stupid. Why would we allow that if that's what we were REALLY planning?". Same thing with the X-files. If anyone accuses the government of splicing human and alien DNA they can just say "LOL! You saw that on TV. You must be insane". I'm not saying these things are true but its another depth to the whole conspiracy theory thing.

Anyway, it doesn't matter really. Conspiracies and paranoia just spiral around and around, we'll never really know the truth until our Governments have enough balls to tell us what they are doing and what they have planned for us. I don't see that happening though.

At the end of the day, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they were plotting to kill us all. But it doesn't bother me anymore. Its a possibility just like any other, but MY intent will not get caught up in it. Eventually people aren't going to need governments to tell them what to do anymore. On that day, we'll be free to govern ourselves and silly secret-mongers like the US Presidents going back through the ages will be out of a job.


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## LOSTONE

Copeful maybe a thought or idea or "conspiracy" is wrong but that does not mean that they don't exist.

People have thoughts and ideas for a reason and those thoughts and ideas should not be ignored.

Take your views about religion for example.

Obviously you do not want to hear about anything God has to say. You do not even want to know what people believe God is saying.

You ask questions to raise doubt in yourself and then turn away from the answers to your own questions.

Why?

Obviously you do not ask questions in order to get an answer because if you were doing that then you would acknowledge the answers when they are given.

You asked before about a question considering God but then say that you will not listen or accept anything quoted from the bible. So how would God possibly answer you? You have shut your own mind down and made it impossible even for the creator of the universe to set matters right with you. Think about that.

Maybe their is no creator, maybe their is no God and maybe their is no conspiracy but if their is then it is obvious that you have eliminated any hope of your knowing about it. Because you have made yourself impregnable to any ideas in conflict with your own personal reality.

I am not saying that Religious people are right or wrong and I am not saying that people who believe in conspiracies are right or wrong. Those are not the points I am trying to make in this thread. I am trying to make a much harder point that is even harder for people to accept. The point is that most people have built of a wall of fear around themselves and do not even care to think about any other possible reality other then the one they choose to believe in. Facts do not even matter anymore. People do not care about facts. People are driven on emotions and the only emotion I see in people anymore seems to be fear.

Those stones may not have been put in place by someone who really has the ability and desire to carry out the thought on those stones. Yet still the thought is there. It is wrote down in stone.

Just think about how much of a different situation it would be if those stones said something about killing the president or something like that. I am sure those stones would have been given much attention and even torn down if they said something like that on them, regardless of who put them up or why. So why should these stones and the idea on these stones be overlooked when what they actually say is that not just one man should die but rather *5.5 billion men should die!*

Should it matter to us who put these stones up and why?

Think about it.

Even if the person was only putting up an idea that he could not carry out, it is a very serious idea. Just like the idea of killing the president would be taken seriously, so also should the idea of taking over the world and killing most of humanity. In case you are not aware of the facts of history, there have already been many men who have put the words of those stones into action. Hitler, Napoleon, Alexander and Julius Cesar just to name a few of the most famous men.

I do not care if everyone in this world comes to the wrong conclusions about everything. I just wish that at the very least, people would start caring about important issues and stop hiding in fear.

The issue about religion for example is one I take very seriously.

There is really nothing more important then the truth about God.

No matter what the truth is. I don't think there is a more important subject.

Personally I am happy to spend my entire life searching out the truth about God so that I do not get this life wrong.

Maybe I will end up being wrong anyway but at the very least, I am going to do everything in my power not to be wrong. In order to do this, I have accepted every possibility as being possible and I have spent years studying mens knowledge about things and also the bible. I did not do this with a preconceived idea of the truth but I did it with an open mind knowing that I know nothing. Always praying to a God I am unsure of and asking him that if he is there then he will guide me into the right direction. Remaining humble before the powers of the universe as I am aware that the knowledge and wisdom I have is very limited when put next to the expanse of the universe.

Copeful all I am saying is that we should not make pre judgments and have preconceived ideas about everything. We should not let our fear dictate the truth of our own reality because if we do then our reality is probably not in line with what really is reality. And that in the end may lead to something very, very bad.

With the subject of religion it may mean losing out on eternal life.

Personally I don't see the point in risking so much just in order to feel comfortable.

And in reality I believe that the mindset that we should all do and think what is most immediately pleasing is really a very stupid mindset to have.
Because this is a mindset that actually leads to pain and death rather then it leading to anything good.

One thing I find myself very afraid of is public speaking. I think about how bad I would freak out and it is really a tormenting thought. For this very reason I am going to force myself to start giving public talks, because I know this is what I must do in order to face my fear.

If you catch yourself fearing any idea, thought or action then it is not the right thing to do if you run away from that fear. The fear should be confronted.

If you fear the belief in God then you should force yourself to think about the possibility of God's existence and force yourself to see things from other peoples point of view. You should not run away from the thought and you should not strike the thought down as if it were some sort of monster attacking you.

Unless that thought is really a direct threat against your life or something like that.

And just to remind you. Although those stones may mean nothing, they are a direct threat on the lives of billions of people. So why is it ignored?

Why are not people demanding that those stones be torn down?

Personally I believe it is because of fear, because deep down people fear that those words actually do mean something.

And the reason people get so upset about religion is because of fear. Religious people are in great fear that maybe there is no God and for this reason they lash our against any opposing views. In the same way, non religious people lash out against religious views because they fear that maybe their is actually a God who is indeed going to punish them for their sins.

Maybe I am wrong about this.

Maybe everyone does actually know everything.

Maybe all the people on earth are all right. Maybe that is why everyone is so sure of themselves. I do not see how that could be possible though.

How could God exist and not exist at the same time?

Obviously one idea is wrong and the other is right!

So why can't we all learn from each other and grow in knowledge and wisdom about things?

I think it is because we are all living in fear and this fear is what causes many people to become mentally ill.

Thats my personal opinion hopefully the people reading this might think at lest a little about what I am saying here before they disregard my words as being meaningless. Thats all I hope for.


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## LOSTONE

> I must admit its kind of surprising to see this thread from you after the endless debates we had a while back


Yeah well I think I have had a lot of insights into my own illness.

Even when I am telling myself that I am cured and that I am fine, I realize a lot of times that my own words are just words of denial and words I am speaking to myself in order to lie to myself and hide in fear.

The more I think about this, the more I realize that everyone seems to be doing the same thing.

The more upset people are about their professed beliefs the more doubt I think they have in them. That is what I think I am finding out about myself and everyone around me.

I think that this bad mentality of fear has made it possible for higher powers to actually take advantage of us in many different ways. 
Whoever those higher powers are. The Media, Salesmen, the Pope, Politicians. I think they are all taking advantage of people in one way or another and they are able to do this because people are living in fear.

If people really did not fear these stones then people would not be overly sure that they have any meaning or that they don't have any meaning at all. Just to let you all know, these stones are actually a tourist destination now and I find that very odd and interesting. Why is it a tourist destination? Why do people react the way they do about things like this?

Why not just tear the stones down? Actually according to US law, I believe that what is stated on these stones would amount to Treason. Free speech has limits. For example, someone making threats to bomb a plane or to kill the president, obviously these kinds of things are taken seriously.

So why are these stones omitted as not even being in existence?

It is because of fear I think.

Personally I don't care that much anymore at all about these stones or about politics because my own belief in God is becoming very firm I think.

But I do wish that people would stop living in fear and at least talk about things that should matter to them.

I used to care a great deal about these things but I don't as much anymore.

I do still care about the thought that others do not care though. 
It still bothers me that so many people seem to be so apathetic while at the same time being so openly outspoken about their own beliefs.


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## Guest

its not that I dont want to hear what god has to say, its more i dont believ egod said it


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## LOSTONE

Copeful my point is that I don't see you simply as someone who does not believe in God. I see you as someone who does not want to believe in God. 
I see you as someone who may actually be in fear that God might actually exist.

I could be wrong but this is my opinion.

That you don't just not believe in God but you are actually in fear of the thought that God might actually exist.

My opinion is based simply on the fact that you yourself asked a question that raises doubt and then avoided the answer as if the answer were your worst nightmare.

This is something I have seen over and over and over again and it is something I have thought a lot about.

Why do people ask questions and then pretend that the answer to their questions does not even exist?

I think I understand now.

I think that just about everyone on earth is living in a prison of fear and they can't even admit that fact to themselves.

I think admitting the truth to ourselves about who we really are is the most mentally healthy thing we can possibly do. That way our delusions about ourselves can come to an end.


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## Guest

why should I fear gods existance?
IF there was a god, it would not be ur god


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## LOSTONE

> why should I fear gods existance?
> IF there was a god, it would not be ur god


Thanks for helping to make my point.

:wink:

Do you know who my God is?

Do you know what my God is doing?

Do you know what my God has done?

Regardless of the fact of my God's existence or his nonexistence, do you even know my God?

How can you be so sure that my God is not indeed God almighty (if there is a God almighty) when you do not even believe in God and you do not seem to know who my God is at all?

Just to let you know a little about my beliefs.

I do not believe in a literal hell where God torments people. 
I do not believe that God has preplanned our destruction or our pain.
I do not believe that God enjoys watching the pain or suffering of anyone of his creations. 
I do not believe that God wants his people to be fighting in wars and killing each other. 
I do not believe that God wants his people to take part in the corrupt politics of this world at all. 
I believe God is against murder.
I believe God planes to end all suffering soon and also to do away with death and even bring back to life those who are already dead. 
I believe God is the personification of love.

So why are you so sure that if their is a God that God is not my God?

Have I done some injustice to lead you to believe that my beliefs are evil?

As far as I know, I have told you nothing bad about my God and I have done nor said nothing bad to you, so why are you so sure that my God is not indeed God almighty?

This is my whole point Copeful.

Think about what your own professed belief is. 
How can you believe in what you do not even know?

If you do not believe in God then you obviously do not know him and for that reason it would be impossible for you to tell others who is God and who is not God because you said yourself that you do not believe in God.

Copeful I don't want to get into a deep religious debate here.

I am only trying to make a point about fear. 
I am trying to make a point about why we all believe what we believe and why we say what we say.

And also why we avoid some things.

It is just something to think about.

I admit I am not God and I do not really know you so these are just ideas.

My opinion is that maybe you believe what you believe because of your fear of opposing beliefs. My opinion is that your thoughts and beliefs may have more to do with fear then facts.

I think this is the way many people are. Even maybe many people of my own religion. I can't say for sure but I feel that I am onto something here.

I have noticed a very great deal of fear in myself and I think that this same fear exists in almost everyone and this fear is what dictates much of what people say and do.


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## Guest

huk logic....

praise spaghetti monster! all pastafarians raise to arms


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## Pablo

I see fear in everyone, most people on this planet still live by the law of the jungle and are still in primative survival mode, modern "society" covers this up but just see what happens when there is a crisis like the hurricane in New Orleans or when there is a war, people turn very quickly into savages where their only concern is their own survival.

But it is plainly obvious to me by looking at history that the main religions are not an answer to this undercurrent of fear that exists. I see God as one of the main reasons why people dont confront their fear, God is like opium giving people a comfort blanket to hold on to when they cant explain things about the world and keeps people unconscious of their fear so they can never deal with it.


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## LOSTONE

Pablo I actually agree with you about religion.

And I agree that the bible has been used to prey on peoples fear to a great degree over the years.

I could go on and on talking about the hypocrisy I am aware of in different religions and I could go on and on talking about the corruption in many different religions.

The biggest flaw I think that exists in almost all religions is that almost everyone on earth who is religious is also willing to goto war and kill their fellow believers. Strangely even almost all religions based upon the teachings of Jesus are like this. Some people say they follow Jesus yet they are the very same people who are responsible for some of the most horrible things that have taken place on this earth.

Something to take note of though is that this was all predicted in the bible. Jesus even said that many men would come saying they are the Christ and they would be misleading people. He also spoke of false prophets and warned over and over about being mislead by religious leaders who come preaching about Jesus. *Even the religious leaders of Jesus day were the very people responsible for killing Jesus. *

I do agree that there is probably a very large number of people who only have faith in God because of their fear. It can go both ways.



> God is like opium giving people a comfort blanket to hold on to when they cant explain things about the world and keeps people unconscious of their fear so they can never deal with it.


Yes I agree this is true for most people.

This is why so many religious people are so very confused when something bad happens to them. They usually assume that God is angry at them and that is why this bad thing is taking place. For example when New Orleans was hit by the hurricane, I seen many religious leaders saying that it was because the city was a sinful city and that God was upset with New Orleans.

People are also told that when their loved ones die that they go into heaven and they are actually better off. They are told even that God had taken their loved ones because he wanted them in heaven.

These teachings actually have nothing to do with the bible or God. They do not come from God, these teachings do not even exist in the very inspired writings that these religious teachers say they get their information from.

Even if God does not exist, the corruption of men should not be a reason to convince us of God's non existence. And it should not even be a reason for doubt because why should we believe that the acts and teachings of men are a reflection of the truth about God?

For true followers of what the bible teaches, believing in God and following the teachings of Jesus Christ is not something that I would consider an avoidance of fear. In reality it would take a great deal of courage to follow Jesus teachings in an honest way.

Most people are not following Jesus teaching though.
This is why the bible warns about the "wolves in sheep's clothing"

So the corruption and lies of men should not be a reason to tell yourself you have proof that God does not exist. Actually the fact that the bible has been used in corrupt ways and that their are many lies being told about God is something that only backs up what the bible says. If you learned more about the bible then you would probably be surprised about just how much the bible talks about this. And you may be surprised to find out how very different the bibles message is from the message of many religions.

Faith in God for many religious people is simply a protective blanket to cover over their fear, this is obvious. But there are people all over the world who put their faith into action and even put their life on the line for their beliefs. That is what real faith is. Real faith takes courage. No matter what you place you faith into. Real faith is not about avoiding fear but it is about confronting fear.

Jesus even said that in order to follow him you would have to pick up a "torture stake". He said that for a reason. Serving God is supposed to involve action, there are commands that Jesus gave to his followers for them to follow. These commands are mostly overlooked by almost all the religions that claim to follow Jesus teachings. This is because these religions do not want to teach anything that may make people leave their church. For most religions I believe that the religious leaders are only concerned with their own power and wealth, and this is why fear is used as a weapon against many religious people.

I don't think that any of this is in conflict with the bible or with the idea that the creator of the universe exists and is preparing to end the rebellion taking place here now.

My personal belief is that fear is used as an excuse for people on both sides of the religious spectrum. As I said, I think there are probably a number of people even in my own religion who are only there because of fear. I believe that when these peoples faith is put to the test then they will no longer be a part of my religion though.

The bible itself even says that true followers of Jesus can not be living in fear.

*1John 4:18
There is no fear in love, but perfect love throws fear outside, because fear exercises a restraint. Indeed, he that is under fear has not been made perfect in love. *

The two greatest commandments that Jesus pointed out are both about "love" and for this reason it is impossible to serve God in an acceptable way if you are living in fear.

So corruption and fear are not things that come from the teachings of the bible. They are things that come from the twisted teaching of men.

This does not disprove God or prove him to be.

The issue of God's existence actually has nothing to do with any of this.

According to the bible and according to my own belief, fear has nothing to do with an honest belief in God.

The belief in God should arise simply from observing his creations.

*Ro 1:18-23
18 For God?s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who are suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way, 19 because what may be known about God is manifest among them, for God made it manifest to them. 20 For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world?s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable; 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God nor did they thank him, but they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their unintelligent heart became darkened. 22 Although asserting they were wise, they became foolish 23 and turned the glory of the incorruptible God into something like the image of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed creatures and creeping things.

*

Yes I agree fear is used to con people into believing in God but many of these people do not exercise real faith in God and much of what these people say is hypocrisy and lies.

The true followers of Jesus are not living in fear and that is not their motivation for serving God. I have personally become well aware of this myself because my own fear is what directs me away from my religion and not towards it. So I know that fear is not even my own motivation because it motivates me into the opposite direction from my religion.

Personally the reason I wish to follow Jesus is because I think that it is the only right thing to do with my life. I believe that the creator of the universe deserves our respect and our obedience. Even if I knew eternal life was not possible for me and that their is nothing good at all that I may ever have myself. I would still do what I can in order to follow Jesus because I can not see any better way of life. And I do not see any more honest path in life or any more honest belief then the belief I find in the people of my religion.

So maybe even I am still living in fear, but if I am then that fear is what is preventing me from getting baptized and not what is driving me towards it.

This is why I am forcing myself into an all out war against fear.

Personally I think fear is probably the biggest problem in the world right now for everyone. And I think it plays a very big part in what causes DP/DR.

I think we should all take a look at our own motivations and always make sure that our beliefs and our values and our very identity is not being shaped and molded by our fears. No matter what our beliefs are.

I think fear is an issue for everyone, religious or non religious.

I don't see fear as proof of God's non existence though.

For me it has become very clear that a creator does exist. 
Not because of fear but simply because I realize that the creations of God are things that required an intelligent creator in order to come into existence. The miracles of God's creations are all around us and as the bible says, the evidence of God's power is so overwhelming that it is inexcusable for any of us to lack a belief in the one who created these things. I don't believe that because of fear but I believe it because the power of the things God made are all around me and I can not deny the existence of God's creations.

Not everyone has faith in God for the same reason though.
And not everyone is avoiding God for the same reason.

Fear does not control everyone but I think it controls a great number of people and I think it has grown into toxic levels in some people. I also think it is the most important aspect of what DP/DR is all about. That is why I think we all need to make war with our fears and fight against our fears with all our might.

I know I do, or I will find myself never truly following my own professed beliefs. I admit this. It is my goal to continue taking action against my own fears and I hope that everyone else will start doing the same thing.


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## Guest

"other religions" sure, ur religion is perfect?

dude, ur so brainwashed its ac tually a lil sad


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## Pablo

Lostone you still think that the problem is just reading and interpreting the Bible in the wrong way but that is obviously a load of shite, how does reading the bible in any way whether the right way or wrong way get rid of the destructive emotions which cause violence and war. Reading a book does nothing to deal with the dark side of humanity because it provides no method to deal with the destructive emotions, it just says dont have them, dont be violent, dont sin, sorry but this does not work FACT, they exist whether we like them or not and the bible does nothing to change that no matter how you read it or try to live your life by it. Reading is just a cogntitive exercise, it cannot transform the inner you no matter how hard you try to be different.

I have read your favourite Watchtower site and its advice for problem emotions is just to "control them", which is just childish elementary advice which does no good in the long run. People would be far better off reading about psychotherapy than the bible because at least psychotherapy has a method, the bible is useless without methods to help people and it is obvious the only method they have is prayer and it is obvious that it does not work.


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## Guest

Copeful... just kick god in the balls if he exists *nods*.


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## Guest

.


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## Guest

spirit, I do not know about your boyfriend, but listen to this:

the 5.5 billion is a very KNOWN conspiracy, could it by any chance be that he had read it and his schizophrenia went nuts on it?


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## Guest

.


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## CECIL

People on this planet definately live in fear. IMO, like I've said on here before, I agree with Pablo in that when shit hits the fan, people revert to our base animal instincts. The problem is that these instincts are no longer relevant. The people hit by that hurricane didn't have to go ape shit and start looting the town. They could have banded together and come up with a plan for how to get by. They could have forged a strong community in which everyone helped everyone out, rationed food, built shelter and taken care of each other. I'm sure there were many people there that did that but most of what we heard about were the people that gave into fear and ego, doing whatever was in their own best interest to the detriment of others.

Compassion and empathy is the key. If you have empathy, then whatever you do to another living being you do to yourself. You can FEEL the pain you cause them. Therefore there's no need for a set of external morals ("Don't do that or I'll fucking spank you!"), you are only guided by what feels right to you. People wouldn't hurt other people if we could connect to them empathically.

Fear. I'll tell you what I am most afraid of. My own power. I am terrified that everything I say on this site is true. If it is true, then I have no place to hide anymore. I can no longer tell myself lies about why I can't do this or that. Can no longer hide away from my responsibility in this world and pretend that I'm hopeless and worthless. If its all true, then I have to stand up and claim control over my life and make the changes I've always wanted to.

Changes are hard to make and they are big changes that will change my entire life. But I don't want to be afraid anymore.

People ARE ruled by fear. The fear of change, fear of death, fear of not being able to survive. But for as long as we live in fear and are just struggling to survive, we'll never start LIVING.

I want to LIVE!


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## LOSTONE

> The people hit by that hurricane didn't have to go ape shit and start looting the town. They could have banded together and come up with a plan for how to get by. They could have forged a strong community in which everyone helped everyone out, rationed food, built shelter and taken care of each other. I'm sure there were many people there that did that but most of what we heard about were the people that gave into fear and ego, doing whatever was in their own best interest to the detriment of others.


Yeah and why should we believe that people are not responsible for their actions?

Why should we expect something bad rather then something good?

Spirit the ideas your BF spoke about have been around a long time. What he said about going up to live in the mountains is probably from the bible. Jesus told the Jews to flee to the mountains and that is a pretty well known scripture.

Pablo I don't want to get into a debate with you about God.

If you have indeed read the Watchtower site that I posted before then I am happy about that. It shows me that you at least maybe put in some effort to answer your own questions.



> Lostone you still think that the problem is just reading and interpreting the Bible in the wrong way


Yes well don't confuse why I said what I have said. 
The problem indeed is that the bible's message is twisted and abused. So also the faith of many people is abused.

But that is just one problem. 
That is the problem if a misunderstanding of what the bible truly stands for.

Many people think of God as being evil because of the false teachings about the bible. So these people tell themselves that God does not exist simply because the only God they ever hear about is an evil God. This is very understandable to me because when I was younger, the only God I knew about was an evil God. My own nephew once told me that I was going to burn in hell because I did not know for sure if Jesus was the son of God! Honestly I would never serve my nephews God even if I were to find out that his God were indeed God almighty. Simply because his God is very evil in my eyes.

So I think that the lies being told about the bible is indeed a very big problem and a calamity. Even if God did not exist, what would be worse to lie about then to be lying about God?



> how does reading the bible in any way whether the right way or wrong way get rid of the destructive emotions which cause violence and war.


Because the bible makes it clear why people have these emotions and the bible also shows us what we should be doing with these emotions. 
"HOW" is not even what is most important. What is important is the fact that the bible does get rid of the destructive nature of people. This has been proven by the men and women who are following the bibles teachings. To come to a good understanding of "how" the bible can change your life, you must read the bible and apply what it says into your life. You can not fully understand how the bible can change your life if you do not ever actually follow what the bible says. This is not something that can be proven to you, it is something you must prove to yourself. But if you are not looking for the proof then you will likely never find it.



> Reading a book does nothing to deal with the dark side of humanity because it provides no method to deal with the destructive emotions, it just says dont have them, dont be violent, dont sin, sorry but this does not work FACT


Actually the proven fact is that it does work. 
As I have said before, there is a group of people who are following Jesus teachings who no longer take part in war or any destruction upon the earth. So these very people are the ones who have helped to prove the bible is indeed the word of God. This has been possible because their is a method. The bible gives a very clear method for attaining to righteousness in God's eyes. And this method is so simple that it works for anyone who applies it into their lives.



> Reading is just a cogntitive exercise, it cannot transform the inner you no matter how hard you try to be different.


As I said, millions of people have already proven that the bible does transform the inner you, if you apply the bibles teaching into your life.

All sorts of men and women from all the most distant parts of the earth have already changed their lives and accepted the teachings of the bible as being the inspired word of God. These people no longer take part in war and they no longer take part in violence and they no longer take any part in speaking lies. So the fact is that the bible does transform people.

Pablo you can argue the points of the bible and you can argue about the idea of God and you can argue the points about everything else. 
But it is very clear that there are millions of people who are actually following the bibles teaching and that these people have indeed made drastic changes in their own lives. So no matter what you want to believe about the bible, the power of the bible can not be avoided. It is very clear what the power of the bible is. It is very clear that it is not simply a cognitive exercise.

If that was the truth then I doubt that the bible would have been translated into over 2,000 languages, and I doubt that the bible would be viewed as the inspired word of God by millions of people. Even if the idea of God is something almost impossible for you to consider, the bible should not be ignored. There is no other book that is anything like it on earth.

Yes the bible has been used for evil means and yes it has been used as a weapon of fear against many people.

But I think that we should all look past the corruption of humans and look past our own fear and take an honest look at every important issue we face in our lives. Personally I believe that everlasting life is a possibility and it is something that people throw away much to quickly.

Maybe it is not a possibility but if not then you still have nothing to lose if you do look for everlasting life.

Most people have no hope in anything. Most people are accepting that their life means nothing and that there is no point in taking anything seriously. This is my opinion about a lot of people anyway.

Personally I think that we should at least look for something better before putting all of our faith into nothingness and death.

We should not fear the unknown. 
I personally do not fear death anymore and I have considered the possibility that maybe there is no point to life at all. I have considered that maybe the only point to life is death. I have not been in fear to consider this. But I am also not in fear to consider other things either.

There are things that I get stuck on and there are things that I find myself in fear of and there are things that I know cause my DP/DR. 
These are the things that I face and these are the things I know I must accept and not be running away from.

I think everyone should do the same.

Pablo I don't know if you have faced your fears or not. I don't know what you know or who you are. I am just suggesting that maybe everyone on here is still living in fear and that is why they are here on dpselfhelp. And maybe this is also why people are so outspoken about things.

I accept that this could be a possibility even for myself. As I said, I don't believe that I am above anyone here. I only believe that I am striving to better myself.

The Ideas that I have posted here are ideas that I myself might not be fully convinced about. Maybe that is why I posed these ideas here. Maybe it is because I want to see what the response of others would be.

Pablo when it comes to the bible, it seems that much of what people say against the bible is based on information that does not even come from the bible. This is the only reason I say that the biggest problem for most people being accept God is that most of what is said about God are all lies.

For example, one thing that people always talk about is "hell". Many people view the teaching about hell as a teaching that is evil. If God burns people alive forever in eternal hellfire then obviously this is something that would not site well with many people. What I like to point out though is that these thoughts are not even correct to have because the bible does not even teach that God torments people in a literal hellfire. There are also many other false teaching that people consider is a proof that God must not exist. All I want to point out is that many of these teachings are not from the bible. And many of the corrupt actions of religions are actually in direct conflict with what the bible says.

So just don't let lies and corruption be the dictator in your beliefs. 
We should push ourselves to find better reasons for ourselves to have a belief in something.

We should not let fear or lies or evil or anything else be the dictator in our beliefs or our motives.

I don't want to say for sure that anyone here is doing this, if I have done that then I am sorry. I just think that maybe we are all doing this. Maybe we have all let ourselves become pawns in life for others who are manipulating our very identities. It's just a thought. This is something I try to consider even when reading the bible. I believe that if the bible is false then this mindset will help me to see that. And I also believe that if the bible is indeed the word of God then this fearless mindset will also help me to build an even more unshakable faith in the bible because I will be able to prove my own doubts to myself as being true or false.

I am sick of DP/DR and I am sick of fear.

For a long time I could only think about ending my own life because of not being able to face things. I am not going to let that be a possibility for myself. I have grown to hate my fear and to hate what I have let DP/DR and my fears and anxieties do to me. Even if I find that my fear and DP/DR would never go away, I will not allow myself to hide from them. I will face up to whatever monster comes my way and I will not even complain about it anymore. I will not let myself become a pawn or a slave to outside influences. I may choose to do the will of another. I may choose to do the will of God but it will be my choice. I will not allow myself to be controlled.

To many of us have been living this way for to long. 
I think we all need to take back control of even our own minds. 
We all need to wake up and realize that we have placed ourselves in a prison and we need to break out of it before it is to late.

Spirit you seem to think that maybe I am not such a nice person.

Maybe that is true.

Personally though I think that the pampering method of therapy that most doctors give to people is the worst thing that they could do. I think it is why my sister is in her 30's now and still she is going into the hospital every year for cutting herself up.

I do not think it is healthy for people to continue to live in a fantasy world. Because when these people are faced with reality then they are unable to deal with it and their trauma only becomes that much worse.

This is why I think we should not baby ourselves anymore. For the same reason that it is not good for others to baby us. And for the same reason it is not good to spoil children. Because reality does not sit well with the fantasy world that most of us are living in.


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## LOSTONE

> Fear. I'll tell you what I am most afraid of. My own power. I am terrified that everything I say on this site is true. If it is true, then I have no place to hide anymore. I can no longer tell myself lies about why I can't do this or that. Can no longer hide away from my responsibility in this world and pretend that I'm hopeless and worthless. If its all true, then I have to stand up and claim control over my life and make the changes I've always wanted to.


See CECIL I think it is pretty clear that you are letting fear hold you back.

You probably don't just fear your own power but you probably know the truth about your own power and this is why it probably terrifies you so much.

I have noticed the same fear in myself. And I have let myself hide under my own fear. I have found the cure for DP/DR here on this very site and came to a clear realization of how much power I actually have over my own life, but the fear does not just go away. The fear actually becomes worse if you are able to see things more clearly and there is no hiding place. So I think the only thing we can do is just to face up to our fears and force ourselves to deal with it. I won't suggest that it is easy to do this. I am only saying that we "MUST" do it.


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## CECIL

Yep, I agree whole heartedly with that 

It sounds like you've gained some real conviction over the last months and that's awesome to see. I hope you can continue knocking down your walls


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## LOSTONE

> It sounds like you've gained some real conviction over the last months and that's awesome to see.


I have come to the realization that soon we will no longer have the luxury of being in fear or of letting DP/DR control our lives.

Personally I am really starting to realize that it is a matter of life and death for myself.

I do believe in everlasting life and I believe that everlasting life is a reality for many people. I believe this for many reasons that would take me a long time to list.

But even if everlasting life were not a possibility, what is the point in living in fear? Personally I am beginning to realize that living in fear is almost the same as being dead. It is the biggest reason that I have felt for a very long time that I am dead.

So I think that in order to even have any moment at all where I am able to feel alive and have any peace of mind in my own existence, I realize that my own fear must be destroyed completely.

I have let fear ruin my life and this has made me very angry. 
I used to direct that anger outward but I am not going to do that anymore. I am going to direct almost all my anger toward my fear in order to eliminate it.

I don't think we should live in denial and pretend there is nothing to fear in life. This is not healthy and this is why I think it is actually good to point out what things we do fear in life. Government corruption or whatever. There are many things that people are actually living in fear of while at the same time denying that they are in fear.

We should not avoid these fears and we should not pretend that they do not exist. We should deal with them and force ourselves to face our fears because if we don't then we will always be a slave to our fears and we will always be a slave to DP/DR.


----------



## CECIL

Amen, brother 

Congratulations, you've reached the turning point: Heal or Die 

I choose to live 8)


----------



## Pablo

LOSTONE said:


> Because the bible makes it clear why people have these emotions and the bible also shows us what we should be doing with these emotions.
> "HOW" is not even what is most important. What is important is the fact that the bible does get rid of the destructive nature of people. This has been proven by the men and women who are following the bibles teachings. To come to a good understanding of "how" the bible can change your life, you must read the bible and apply what it says into your life. You can not fully understand how the bible can change your life if you do not ever actually follow what the bible says. This is not something that can be proven to you, it is something you must prove to yourself. But if you are not looking for the proof then you will likely never find it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reading a book does nothing to deal with the dark side of humanity because it provides no method to deal with the destructive emotions, it just says dont have them, dont be violent, dont sin, sorry but this does not work FACT
> 
> 
> 
> Actually the proven fact is that it does work.
> As I have said before, there is a group of people who are following Jesus teachings who no longer take part in war or any destruction upon the earth. So these very people are the ones who have helped to prove the bible is indeed the word of God. This has been possible because their is a method. The bible gives a very clear method for attaining to righteousness in God's eyes. And this method is so simple that it works for anyone who applies it into their lives.
Click to expand...

You cant seriously think that the Jehovas are any better at dealing with the dark side of humanity than most other religious groups, there is as big a peodophile problem within the Jehovas as the Catholic church, this is because they dont offer a practical method of transformation apart from scripture.


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## LOSTONE

There is not a pedo problem with Jehovah's Witnesses.

I have spent a lot of time reading about the issue because of something I seen on TV a long time ago.

They started bashing JW's because of what was going on with Catholics.

The issue was not that their are a lot of pedos who are JW's but people were saying that the Watchtower society does not report the cases of abusers.

If you really knew anything about the religion then you would realize how far this is from the truth.

Not only are cases reported but anyone with a record of any type of sexual crime at all are never allowed to have any responsibility in any congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Unlike other religious organizations who are all mostly unorganized, Jehovah's Witnesses keep track of what is going on within their own religion. So if a man in one part of the world commits some serious sin and is removed from a congregation then he will be unable to goto any other congregation of JW's on earth and find a welcome.

So JW's do not have a problem.

From my point of view their organization should be the standard for how the whole world operates. People may still do bad things sometimes because of their own personal choice but if the whole world was operated by the Watchtower society then Pedos would have no place to hide on the earth.

Pablo there are many people who say a lot of lies about the Watchtower society because they themselves have been removed for some reason. Usually the reason does have something to do with some sexual sin.

Personally this is not even the most important issue for me anyway. The most important issue is if the Witnesses as a society are obeying Jehovah God or not. From my years of studying, I have come to the conclusion that the only organization on earth who is obeying the God who inspired the holy bible is the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Sinners have existed from the beginning of human history. 
That is the whole point of the bible.

People make their own choices. Some people make the wrong ones.

I assure you though that the Watchtower society does not hide pedos. If the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses has no other option then they will even disfellowship an entire congregation in order to eliminate corruption and sin.

But this does not mean that the door is completely closed to people who are repentant of their sins. Jehovah's Witnesses never turn away anyone who shows that they are repentant, no matter what sin the person has done. The Witnesses never shield anyone from punishment for a crime though and they do not hide pedos.



> his is because they dont offer a practical method of transformation apart from scripture.


Scripture is actually a practical method of transformation. And it also shows how to keep congregations clean. The problem again with most religions is that the bible is not actually followed.

If you really want to know and understand a religion then goto the religion to learn about it. If you goto Satan to learn about Jehovah God then what do you think he will tell you?

I am not saying that people should be blinded but just think about it. If all your information is coming from people who hate Jehovah's Witnesses then do you think you will ever really know the truth about who Jehovah's Witnesses really are?

Personally I do not let anything get in my way of knowing who God is or knowing who his people are. People say things and I do the research to find out the truth. I don't just accept peoples words as truth because I am aware that lies are much more common in this world then the truth is.

Pablo my high view of Witnesses is based upon the bible. It is because everything I know about Jehovah's Witnesses is completely in line with what the bible says. That is what means more then anything to me personally.

I don't even care if everyone on earth turns away from God and I am the only one left. Even if I am sinning myself, I can not speak lies about God. I know the truth and so that is all I will speak about God. I will say what I know is true.

That is how convinced I am about Jehovah God.


----------



## Pablo

BBC Panorama investigation into peadophilia:

"The Jehovah's Witnesses organisation keeps a sex offenders register that nobody outside the church is allowed to see. Bill Bowen, who has spent his lifetime as a Jehovah's Witness and nearly twenty years as an elder, says the organisation covers up abuse by keeping this database secret.

His sources indicate there are *23,720 abusers on the list* - who are protected by the system.

"They [the Jehovah's Witnesses] do not want people to know that they have this problem", he tells Panorama.

"And by covering it up they just hurt one person. By letting it out, then they hurt the image of the church."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/p ... 119903.stm

Im sure you will say that these are just lies by disgruntled ex members but how about all these from this site http://www.rickross.com/groups/witness.html

Child sex abuse activist Anderson interviewed on national TV show on church allegations
Jehovah's Witness elder gets three years for sexual exploitation
Man escapes jail for sex attacks
Jehovah's Witnesses settle sex abuse cases, group says
Suit claims years of abuse by father
Jehovah's Witness elder charged with sex assault of girl, 8
Elder gets two years probation for molesting 12-year-old girl
Former elder guilty of sex assault
Ex-elder can't control sex urges
Diary leads to sex assault charge
Man protests Jehovah's Witness teachings
Ruling offers new basis for suits against churches
Child abuse cases allege Jehovah's Witness cover-up
Church faces abuse complaints
Was church legally bound to report child abuse?
Divining Liability
Religious sect faces slew of molest cases
Group renews charge that Jehovah's Witnesses indifferent to sexual abuse
Lawsuits allege abuse
Annandale church isn't liable in abuse suit
News in brief from California's North Coast
Silent Lambs conference to confront child abuse
Fifth man alleges sexual abuse at Placer congregation
Jehovah's Witness elder abused girl
Woman who won $5,000 in a sex abuse suit against church must pay legal costs
Lawsuit filed against Jehovah's Witnesses Church
Abuse Suits Point at Jehovah's Witnesses
Defendant responds to sexual abuse allegations
Jehovah's Witnesses asking woman to pay legal costs in sexual abuse lawsuit
Judge awards woman $5K in civil suit against Jehovah's Witnesses
Judge: Elders not required to report abuse
Elder charged with sexual abuse
Trial jury clears elder
Hearing slated for suit against church
Another Church Sex Scandal
East Providence man pleads guilty to sexual assault charges
Judge: Sisters may pursue church case
Sexual Abuse and The Jehovah's Witness Faith
Abuse lawsuit brings forth new allegations
Trial ordered for Jehovah's elder
Transcript of CBC Fifth Estate Program on Abuse in Jehovah's Witnesses
Jehovah's Witnesses under fire for abuse
Ex-church elder linked to molest
A Biography of Mike Moss
Witnesses to Pain
Minister Charged With Sex Crimes
Suit charges church coverup
Abuse claims raised against religious group
Banned church member sues Jehovah's Witnesses
Excommunicated Jehovah's Witnesses speak out on church's handling of child abuse
Elders erred in abuse case, court told
Jehovah's Witness abuse trial nears end
Colleagues concealed sex abuse to protect 'clean image' of Witnesses: elder
Church made her cover up sexual abuse, woman says
Former Jehovah's Witness weeps as she describes abuse at hands of father
'Silentlambs' speak out about sex abuse
Sexual Abuse Allegations Within Jehovah's Witness Denomination
Storm in the hall
Woman sues church
Connie Chung Interview
Man vows to appeal Witnesses' expulsion
Bowen learns of disfellowship
Bowen observes hearing from afar
Jehovah's Witnesses accused of building 'paedophile paradise'
Minnesota women file lawsuit against Jehovah's Witnesses
Witness To Shame
Child abuse with the Jehovah's Witnesses
Sect demands biblical proof
Expose on Jehovah Witnesses Pedophile Cover-Up
A battle rises within Jehovah's Witnesses
Another church facing charges of sexual abuse
Jehovah's Witnesses downplay sex abuse, women say
Whistleblower could lose her church, family
Jehovah's Witnesses Kick Out Couple
Jehovah's Witnesses face sex scandal
Four Facing Jehovah Ouster
Man loses bid to sue Jehovah's Witnesses over sexual abuse
Jail for Jehovah's Witness
Jehovah's Witnesses congregation in Othello sued in sex abuse case
More Sexual Abuse Suits Against Jehovah's Witnesses Will Follow, Predicts Ex-Church Elder & Legal Expert
Elder resigns, protests faith's policy on abuse charges
Molestation victim, parents think church elders let them down
Judge blasts church over sex offences

You can make as many excuses as you like Lostone, maybe all these people are lying but it appears clear to me that there is serious peodo problem within the witnesses, some people have even described the way they deal with the problems as a "peodophile paradise" because it is dealt with internally.

The Witnesses are just as sick at the Catholic church because reading the bible isnt enough to help people deal with their sexual problems and negative emotions.


----------



## Guest

*Adds fuel to the "unholy" fire*... *Throws a wiki article in*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Cath ... buse_cases

Whooo I like this one:



> *Payments to victims*
> 
> Some have alleged that Church members paid off victims of child abuse, either in settlement of compensation claims, or in order to prevent them reporting to the police. In the mid-1990s, Archbishop (later Cardinal) Connell of Dublin lent money to a priest who had abused altar boy Andrew Madden; this money was used to pay compensation to Madden and to prevent him from reporting the abuse to the police. Connell later claimed never to have paid money to a victim, insisting that he had simply lent money to a priest who independently used the money to pay off his victim.


Why does the term; Blood money come to mind?

Another "wiki" for ya's:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_money_%28term%29



> Blood money is, colloquially, the reward for betraying a criminal to justice.


They can't wash the blood off their palms... so the just fuse each palm together to hide the evidence.

Tutt tutt.

I love Religion, and it would seem Religion loves young boys and girls? bless our lord; amen.


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## LOSTONE

Pablo as I said, peoples choices are their own choices.

The reason the Witnesses keep track of sex offenders is for the reason I posted above. It is for a protection. To protect children. The law does not require them to have this list. *And to add to that, there is no organization or even law enforcement agency on earth that knows who all the sex offenders are in the entire world.* Jehovah's Witnesses do know who all the convicted sex offenders are who are members, no matter where on earth they live! Again this is to protect children. Jehovah's Witnesses should be praised for their efforts.

I do not have first hand knowledge of how things work at Bethel but I know why Jehovah's Witnesses keep tabs on sex offenders. This is not something they have to do. It is something they choose to do in order to make sure that the proper congregations are notified about someone who has been convicted of a sex crime.

Just think about that.

There are sex offenders working in schools with children. There are sex offenders working in different parts of law enforcement. There are even sex offenders who are leaders of their church!

Jehovah's Witnesses keep track of all sex offenders in order to let their congregation members know about these people. Also as I said before, these people are forever unable to have any sort of responsibility at all in any congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses on earth.

*If the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses wanted to hide their sex offenders then their would be no sex offender list.* It's that simple. 
According to the bible, it would be wrong for Jehovah's Witnesses to turn away sex offenders and to say that they are unwelcome when these people show repentance. Jehovah's Witnesses do everything possible to keep each and every congregation clean. I am very aware of this.

Again, people make their own choices but I assure you that if someone is making wrong choices and sinning against God then they will be removed from the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. 
Jehovah's Witnesses care more about remaining clean before the sight of Jehovah then they care about anything else.

Also keep in mind that this list has nothing to do with law enforcement. Jehovah's Witnesses are not a law enforcement agency. They have no obligation to hand out their own records, besides the law enforcement agencies have their own records of who has been convicted of a crime.

I do not know if you think it would be better for the Witnesses to turn a blind eye to Sex offenders or not. Personally I believe that the most righteous thing to do is to keep a list of sex offenders and those who have been accused of a sex offense, so that people will be able to be warned if their is even a slight potential threat in a congregation to know about. The fact that this list exist is proof of the good intentions of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Think about it Pablo.

What would you do if you were running an organization.

Most organizations do nothing.

Do you think that the boy and girl scouts keep a list on sex offenders?

Obviously what the Governing body is doing by keeping a list is a good thing and not a bad thing.

This is my point about how things get twisted around and about how lies are formed.

Truth is twisted so far that it is turned into the exact opposite of truth.

Pablo if you are going to even know the truth about anything then you need to get both sides of the story about things. If you really want to know the truth about this then you should write to the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses and they will explain all of this in detail to you if you want. They are not obligated to say anything but I am sure they would be happy to explain why they keep a list if you asked them nicely.


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## Pablo

Bible based Christian religions like the Catholic church and the Jehovas Witnesses create guilt around sex so practitioners of these religions repress their healthy natural sexual urges into their subconscious and when a drive is repressed it is now in the dark of the psyche, but the drive still exists and needs some sort of expression so it comes out in unhealthy perverted ways like paedophilia, which explains why there are so many paedos in these religions.

When Jesus associated evil with darkness he was talking about the darkness of the unconscious mind in my opinion.


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## Pablo

LOSTONE said:


> *If the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses wanted to hide their sex offenders then their would be no sex offender list.* It's that simple.


Maybe they want to contain the problem so it doesn't get to the media and damage the reputation of the church and maybe they want to keep it out of the courts so it doesn't cost them any money. Their reasons could be completely self serving.


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## LOSTONE

> Maybe they want to contain the problem so it doesn't get to the media and damage the reputation of the church and maybe they want to keep it out of the courts so it doesn't cost them any money.


Then why create a list?

I already know Pablo.

I have all the facts about this because I have looked into it myself a long time ago.

If they were hiding something then they would not spend the time to make up a list of convicted sex offenders. And there is nothing that is being hidden from the courts, I am sure of this. If someone commits a crime then it will be reported and that person will most likely no longer be a Jehovah's Witness.


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## LOSTONE

> Their reasons could be completely self serving.


Well actually their reasons are for Jehovah God.


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## LOSTONE

> Bible based Christian religions like the Catholic church and the Jehovas Witnesses create guilt around sex so practitioners of these religions repress their healthy natural sexual urges into their subconscious and when a drive is repressed it is now in the dark of the psyche, but the drive still exists and needs some sort of expression so it comes out in unhealthy perverted ways like paedophilia, which explains why there are so many paedos in these religions.


Jehovah's Witnesses do not take oaths of celibacy.
Most Jehovah's Witnesses who are adult age are married and have sexual relations with their spouse.

So, I don't know what your talking about.


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## Guest

Focus on one side of the coin, and that side happens to be the shiny side which blinds you of the truth.


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## Pablo

Reported to the courts :lol: did you read that Panorama link I gave,

"Action can only be taken within the congregation if there are two witnesses to a crime or a confession from the accused.

And if a member of the congregation is suspected or even convicted of child abuse, this fact is kept secret."

The girl in the article was abused and followed the jehovas protocol and reported it to her elders *who did nothing* but send her back home to be abused again, *"the police were the last to know"*

"Bowen, as a concerned elder, rang the legal desk and asked for advice on how he should handle a suspected case of abuse in his congregation.
The advice was:
"You just ask him again: 'Now is there anything to this?' If he says 'no', then I would walk away from it...

"Leave it for Jehovah. He'll bring it out."

Yeah leave it for Jehova. The list is to try to contain the chronic problem they have without involving the proper authorities so they can deal with it internally and as a result they put children at risk for the sake of reputations.


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## Pablo

LOSTONE said:


> Jehovah's Witnesses do not take oaths of celibacy.
> Most Jehovah's Witnesses who are adult age are married and have sexual relations with their spouse.
> 
> So, I don't know what your talking about.


Im not talking about oaths of celibacy im talking about the guilt created around sex by Bible teachings and Christian culture, guilt about sexual urges before marriage or self sex sexual urges, masterbation, or even childhood sexuality, the Bible creates guilt about all that, which only leads to repression and evil.

If you dont know what I am talking about you should read the basic ideas of Freud.


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## Guest

It?s ironic that they assume all of their members are sincere to their beliefs? Seems like an excellent mask for a paedophile to ware, that being a mask of ?faith?? or could it be? that their needs are not met in their religion and they must ?express? them selves in cruel ways? possible a mix of both.


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## Pablo

"The Jehovah's Witnesses are now reeling from a series of scandals worldwide and allegations that its *self-styled Child Protection Policy does nothing but protect abusers and fails to ensure allegations of abuse are reported to the authorities.*

According to its critics, child abusers within the organisation are protected by its strict biblical laws and the threat that any member disregarding the advice of elders by going to the police faces the prospect of being denounced and cast out of the congregation"
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... _n12578016


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## LOSTONE

> Im not talking about oaths of celibacy im talking about the guilt created around sex by Bible teachings and Christian culture, guilt about sexual urges before marriage or self sex sexual urges, masterbation, or even childhood sexuality, the Bible creates guilt about all that, which only leads to repression and evil.


I understand what you think.

Personally it is very clear to me why God demands that people do not act on sexual desires until they are married. Sex is not just a past time. It is an act of reproduction. An act that brings new life into this world. These new lives should be respected and loved just as any other life is.

If sexual urges is something you have learned to control then your also unlikely to do things like rape someone or molest a child. Obviously you consider these thing to be bad. So why do you disagree when the bible says these things are bad? The bible teaches that we should "control ourselves". The bible also teaches that "we should be accountable for our own actions". If you are not sinning yourself then you have no reason to feel guilt.

This is a matter of opinion I think Pablo.

Your opinion and my opinion are obviously different. 
You seem to think that maybe we should be able to make up our own minds about things. I believe that this is the entire problem with the world we live in. I believe that we humans were not designed to live our lives separated from God's wisdom and blessing.

That I think is a matter of opinion. My opinion is that all of God's ways are perfect.

I agree with what is recorded at DE 324,5

*4 The Rock, perfect is his activity,
For all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice;
Righteous and upright is he.

5 They have acted ruinously on their own part;
They are not his children, the defect is their own.
A generation crooked and twisted! *

Being in agreement with these scriptures or being in disagreement is your own choice and opinion.

Personally I think that if everyone were to actually follow the bible's teachings then this world would already be a paradise.

There would be no sex crimes. There would be no unwanted babies. There would be no wars. There would be no theft. There would be no lies. There would be no hurtfulness at all in any way shape or form.

That is my opinion.

I don't see the point in going on debating opinions though. 
If you view Jehovah's words as something bad then that does not bother me. It is your opinion and it makes no difference in my life.

I would like to change your opinion because I believe it is a matter of life or death for you. Your opinion is up to you though. God does not force his love upon people if they do not want it and so I see no reason to press the issue.



> t?s ironic that they assume all of their members are sincere to their beliefs


They don't assume anything. 
If someone is sinning then that person is removed from the congregation. 
That is far more then most secular organizations would do.

How many CEO's know who all the convicted sex offenders are who work for their company?

What seems to be expected is perfection from each individual who calls themselves a Jehovah's Witness.

According to the bible, everyone now living on earth is imperfect.

It does not make sense to me that people say that someone or some organization is bad or wrong for improving themselves.

It seems that at the same time you are against the idea of Jehovah's Witnesses trying to live a righteous lifestyle, you also seem to be against them because each member is not completely perfect.

No Jehovah's Witness will ever tell you that they are perfect. 
No Jehovah's Witness will even say that the Society is perfect.

What they will tell you is that perfection is their goal and that they believe that eventually Jehovah God will make perfection a real possibility for them.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not hide people who molest children.

If you want to believe that they do then it is your choice.

As I said before, I believe what DE 32:4,5 says and if you look at verse 5 then you will see what I believe about people who blame God or who blame God's organization for their own sins.

*They have acted ruinously on their own part;
They are not his children, the defect is their own.
A generation crooked and twisted*

So my belief is that the reason people do bad things is very simple. 
"They have acted ruinously on their own part"
"The defect is their own"

That is what I believe about anyone who is going against God.

This includes people who may have been baptized Jehovah's Witnesses for 60 years.

Even Satan was once a servant of Jehovah and indeed he was also once "perfect". He chose his own path, he chose to go against Jehovah.

Jehovah is not the one to blame for sin.
The organization of Jehovah's Witnesses is not to blame for sin.

But those are my beliefs.

You can believe whatever you want.

Again I will tell you that my belief is based upon the bible because I believe that if everyone followed the bibles teachings then this earth would be a paradise.

And I trust the society of Jehovah's Witnesses because they are the only group of people I know who are actually following the bibles teachings as a whole.

If you want to disagree with me that that is fine.

I will not speak anything more about this though. 
If you really want to know the truth then you can contact the Watchtower society vie this website https://watch002.securesites.net/contact/submit.htm

If you wish to write the Watchtower society to get information in order to know the truth then you can find the proper address here http://www.watchtower.org/e/how_to_contact_us.htm

The choice is yours.


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## Pablo

Yeah because the Watchtower organization is really going to give me the truth :roll:

You are just exactly the same as every other relgious fundamentalist in the world: 
- My religion and view is the correct one and yours isn't 
- The problems of the world are because of people not following the rules of my religion 
- I am right and you are wrong and I will do all I can to make you see things the way I see them

If I went to speak to an islamic mentallist about this they would just repeat what you say just replacing Jehova for Allah. Do you not think that the world needs to evolve from this sort of juvenile thinking.

I will tell you why the Witnesses are a complete joke :
They been preaching disaster and the end of the world for hundreds of years but we are still here. 
They would rather people die than allow them to have blood transfusions.
They preach love and peace then aggressively knock on peoples doors and invade peoples homes , which makes them hypocrites of the highest order
They protect peodophiles for the sake of their reputation.


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## Guest

LOSTONE said:


> They don't assume anything.


No, they put their trust in ?gods? hands? they denial responsibly; ?What will be will be?, because it?s their lord?s will.



LOSTONE said:


> If someone is sinning then that person is removed from the congregation. That is far more then most secular organizations would do.


Far less, the ?sinner? would have their balls removed? if they aren?t taken into police protection fast enough, which is a suitable punishment. Women who abuse are fewer, although they still do? beats me what would happen to them in a ?secular organization?, some times forgiveness should not be handed out.



LOSTONE said:


> How many CEO's know who all the convicted sex offenders are who work for their company?


What?s relevant about other CEO?s from seculars organizations? If CRB checks are needed in the company, the ?pedo? won?t get their foot through the door, I know because I needed to show my ?Clean? CRB at the place I volunteer. All places of Religion ?should? have CRB checks because they deal with vulnerable people, people who could be taken advantage of.


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## Rozanne

Religious organisation, at least the larger ones, often do have measures in place to protect children these days. I couldn't give you the literature but it wouldn't surprise me if it was legislated by law (in the UK) that there must be a liason officer in each church to deal with such matters.

I'm not an apologist for any religious community by the way.


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## LOSTONE

> Yeah because the Watchtower organization is really going to give me the truth Rolling Eyes


Pablo what gives you the impression that you will be told lies by contacting the Watchtower society?

I have listened to you. I have listened to many people about many things. I have also considered many things that go against what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe.

How can you know who is lying to you if your entire life is spent listening to the same source of information?

Just something to think about.

This is really what my whole point about fear is.

Many people like to have beliefs and like to form opinions but also do not like to hear anything that is in opposition to what they believe or what they have an opinion about. I believe this is due to fear. The fear that maybe their beliefs and opinions are wrong. This I think is a very powerful fear and I think that it is even a threat to ones own identity if they let it be.

That is my opinion and don't really have anything much to do with my own religious beliefs. It's just the reason I think people do not like to have more knowledge then what is needed to firm up their own beliefs.


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## LOSTONE

Rozanne what you spoke about has been in place with Jehovah's Witnesses since the beginning of their organization.

Nobody is called a liason officer but there are many different positions of authority in each congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. Authority is shared by many different elders in each congregation and they are all watched over by District and Circuit overseers. This way if one person or even an entire congregation starts to do things that are wrong then these ones can be dealt with and removed if need be.


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## LOSTONE

> What?s relevant about other CEO?s from seculars organizations? If CRB checks are needed in the company, the ?pedo? won?t get their foot through the door, I know because I needed to show my ?Clean? CRB at the place I volunteer. All places of Religion ?should? have CRB checks because they deal with vulnerable people, people who could be taken advantage of.


Yes and this is why the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses thinks it is wise to keep track of these people who have done harmful things to children.

As I said.

If a child molester gets baptized as a Jehovah's Witness and starts attending meetings at any congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses then this congregation will be informed about it. The elders will be told about the situation and anyone who needs to know will also know. The media is not considered to be in need of this information. And the police would never ask for this information because that would not even be legal. Law enforcement has their own records on these people anyway.


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## LOSTONE

Emulated Puppet}eer

I don't think you have any idea how many people have actually been convicted of Sex crimes. You would probably be very surprised to know.

Here is a website where you can see how many people have actually been convicted, sent to jail and then released from jail for these crimes.

http://www.sexoffender.com/state.html

Those are just lists of the convicted.

The amount of actual sex offenders is probably about 10 times that amount because of the fear that many victims have for speaking out about abuse.

So it is obvious that society does not go vigilante on all these people or none of these people would still be alive. In reality most people and most companies never even think about this unless it is brought to their attention.

So why is it a bad thing that Jehovah's Witnesses like to keep people informed about people who have a record of sex crimes?

I do not understand how this is a bad thing.

My opinion is that Jehovah's Witnesses are doing their best to give everyone a chance to be repentant of their sins while also protecting possible victims from crime.

That is my opinion based upon the facts that I know.

If you don't believe what I have told you then thats your choice.

As I said, if anyone here wants more information then you can contact the Watchtower society about this.


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## Guest

> Lostone quote;Many people like to have beliefs and like to form opinions but also do not like to hear anything that is in opposition to what they believe or what they have an opinion about. I believe this is due to fear. The fear that maybe their beliefs and opinions are wrong. This I think is a very powerful fear and I think that it is even a threat to ones own identity if they let it be.


No Lostone this is your problem.
Saying that because somone disbeleives you is a bit like what a cult member would say whilst trying to brainwash a possible target.

The world would not be a paradise if everyone followed the bible.The world would be full of guilt riden,repressed people whos repression would come out in more destructive ways BECAUSE they wouldnt have to take responsibility for it,they could blame it on "god".They sacrifice animals to god in the bible this causes huge amounts of suffering for all beings.

Christianity is so far removed from what christ origionaly taught or the origional teachings such as "the laughing jesus" it does little better than to resemble some distorted cult.

I clearly disagree with you Lostone ,not because of fear but because I have and am entitled to my own opinion,and my identity is mine and not yours.Get it?

Spirit.


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## LOSTONE

Spirit my point about fear is not about disagreement.

It is about not even considering any other possibility other then what you want to believe.

If your opinion of the bible is a bad one then I will not say that your opinion is right or wrong.

Your choices and your opinions and beliefs are up to you to decide on.

But if you form an opinion or a belief while only observing one half of the information then this is what I would call "self brainwashing"

Lies are usually easier to believe in then the truth because it often takes effort to find the truth about something. So my point is that if you are turning away from some source of information then you are probably missing out on something.

For example.

Lets say that God was put on trial by a jury and charged with being not real. Also lets say that the bible and the Jehovah's Witnesses are on trial also. In a just court of law, God, the bible and the Jehovah's Witnesses would all be given a chance to explain their side of the story and provide any relevant information to back up their defense.

My point is that I think that out of fear that the defense might win, the prosecutors of this world have made pre-judgments about everything. And so anything that the "defense" has to say is ignored because judgment has already been cast and the entire trial is a farce.

This is the way I view many things in this world.

People just do not even want to hear about anything that goes against their own chosen beliefs. This is how it seems to me anyway.

Someone says something horrible, accusing some group of people as being a child molesters paradise and then those same people do not even care to hear what these accused people have to say in their defense.

My opinion about this is that it is very wrong to be making accusations and speaking out about your beliefs if you do not even look at all the facts yourself. Personally if I had not already reviewed all the facts about these subjects then I would not be speaking anything about them. This is because I do not like the thought that I myself am spreading lies unwittingly.

For example, in the matter of child abuse of Jehovah's Witnesses. I have spent weeks looking over this information because of a show I seen on TV a long time ago. I read many accusations on the internet and I also talked to Jehovah's Witnesses about this and listened to their side of the story. After learning about everything the accusers were saying and everything the defense was saying, I concluded that the accusers were mostly all speaking lies in a way to slander good people. I did not reach this conclusion until I let myself hear both sides of the story so that I could really know the truth. This is not a light issue where I would let myself just keep going on in my own desired beliefs. The thought of unjustly accusing God or God's people of some wrongdoing is to much for me to bear. Also the thought of unwittingly aiding a child molester is to much for me to bear. This is why I spent the needed time to hear both sides of the story about this.

I did not let myself fear losing my beliefs. Rather if I am going to fear then I choose to fear believing in something that is a lie.

Maybe I have come to the wrong conclusion about things but at least I have given the "prosecution" and "defense" due consideration before casting judgment.



> No Lostone this is your problem.
> Saying that because somone disbeleives you is a bit like what a cult member would say whilst trying to brainwash a possible target.


Spirit I have no problem with people being in disagreement with me.

I speak about fear because I believe this is the reason people do not care to look at any information in opposition to their own desired beliefs.

Spirit I have already looked at opposition and given opposition to my beliefs a lot of thought. But rather then jumping to conclusions about things I look up the information for myself to find out what the truth really is. I don't see other people doing this. I offer information and people disregard it. I offer facts and it is viewed as something that does not exist. This is what I would like to point out.

Just one example out of hundreds that I have ran across here on dpselfhelp.

Pablo said this.



> Yeah because the Watchtower organization is really going to give me the truth Rolling Eyes


This is a pre-judgment.

If you make accusations against someone then you should be willing to hear their defense if you truly want to know the truth.

Again it does not matter to me what other people think.

If everyone on earth dies because of their own choices then that has nothing to do with me. Other peoples beliefs will not effect the choices I make in my life.

So why do I care?
I care for the sake of others.

I would just like to point out to people that their beliefs are not really based upon knowledge because most people are not even looking at any information at all that goes against their own desired beliefs.


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## LOSTONE

Imagen Spirit if I started telling people that you were a child molester?

Or Imagen if I were to start telling people that you did not exist?

Wouldn't you feel that it were odd that nobody cared to listen to you and hear what you have to say in your own defense?

Wouldn't you think it were odd if people just assumed that I was speaking the truth when saying that you do not exist?

Then these people never even acknowledge your words because they do not believe that your words exist?

Don't you think that would be odd?

And then when people do finally listen to you, they only do so in order to tell you that you are brainwashing them.

I am not the one spitting out accusations Spirit.

I am speaking in Jehovah's defense.


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## Pablo

LOSTONE said:


> People just do not even want to hear about anything that goes against their own chosen beliefs. This is how it seems to me anyway.


A touch ironic dont you think



> Someone says something horrible, accusing some group of people as being a child molesters paradise and then those same people do not even care to hear what these accused people have to say in their defense.


In your head you think that just because somebody hasn't come to the same conclusions as you that they haven't seen both sides of the argument, which is just presumptious on your part. Personally I listened to everything you had to say in defence as im sure everybody else did and came to my own conclusions.



> The thought of unjustly accusing God or God's people of some wrongdoing is to much for me to bear.


We are all God's people im afraid, not just your superior group



> But rather then jumping to conclusions about things I look up the information for myself to find out what the truth really is. *I don't see other people doing this. I offer information and people disregard it. I offer facts and it is viewed as something that does not exist.*


It is just your arrogance that assumes that other people cant think for themselves do their own research and come to their own conclusions given the evidence. How do you know other people dont do this? you just assume other people dont because they dont come so the same conclusions as you, it is just your arrogant position that your conclusions are the only viable conclusions to arrive at given the evidence - it's just plain arrogance on your part



> Just one example out of hundreds that I have ran across here on dpselfhelp.
> 
> Pablo said this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah because the Watchtower organization is really going to give me the truth Rolling Eyes
> 
> 
> 
> This is a pre-judgment.
> .
Click to expand...

I wouldn't trust the watchtower society at all because they will say whatever just to cover their own backs, what the point in me listening to their pre-packaged media spiel, I believe this because I have a basic understanding of human nature and the way the world works and I have to use my intelligence and judgement in order to choose which lines of information are worth pursuing. You cant get the truth from people who have their own self interest at heart, you have to get it from alternative means.

You seem to think that just because I am not coming to the same conclusions as you that I am not listening to your defence, but I am listening and still coming to different conclusions. Your defence just isn't convincing enough im afraid.


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## LOSTONE

Pablo if you do not look at the information given then how do you know if that information is conclusive or not?

You spoke about my arrogance and then went further to speak about knowing which lines of information are worth pursuing.

This is what is ironic. And this is what I do not understand.

I do not understand how someone could make a serious accusation about child molestation and then say that it is arrogant to ask that person to ask the accused what they have to say for themselves. Answering that they themselves already know what information is accurate and what information is false before they even have all the information.

This is my only request, that people spend the time to contact the Watchtower society if they have something bad to say about the Watchtower society. And that people spend the time to actually read the bible if they have something bad to say about the bible.

Maybe that is a lot to ask but I personally think that it is not a lot to ask considering the accusations that people are willing to speak about.


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## Pablo

I already know what the Watchtower has to say for itself, they say they are trying to protect people, that is their argument but I dont believe them because of all the other evidence, they are hardly likely to come out and say they are protecting peodos for the sake of their reputation are they even if it is true, so what purpose does it serve me contacting them to get a repeat of the argument.

The Watchtower official defence of these charges are mentioned in the articles which I posted, there are quotes from the official press officer so I already know their stance, so there is no point me contacting them to get a repeat is there, I already have both sides of the argument.


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## Guest

LOSTONE said:


> Imagen Spirit if I started telling people that you were a child molester?
> 
> Or Imagen if I were to start telling people that you did not exist?
> 
> Wouldn't you feel that it were odd that nobody cared to listen to you and hear what you have to say in your own defense?
> 
> Wouldn't you think it were odd if people just assumed that I was speaking the truth when saying that you do not exist?
> 
> Then these people never even acknowledge your words because they do not believe that your words exist?
> 
> Don't you think that would be odd?
> 
> And then when people do finally listen to you, they only do so in order to tell you that you are brainwashing them.
> 
> I am not the one spitting out accusations Spirit.
> 
> I am speaking in Jehovah's defense.


Lostone no I did not say that you were brainwashing people,I said that your defence sounded like what somone would say who was trying to brainwash someone,in fact I said it sounds "something like",I did not say ,you were brainwashing people.
Actually I wqouldnt care if someone acused me of those things because I would know that they were not true.The thing is all of your defecnce arguments seem to be retorical and full of projection.
If I was acused of those things wouldnt you find it odd if in my defence I pulled out the perfection of wisdom text and started quoting it to the jury!
It seems somehow you have distorted the argument here.I never had a problem with you defending your religion.I dont remember anyone here acuseing you of being a child molester nor saying that you do not exist,how can you use those examples to defend your defence argument when those arguments were not what you were defending.
And as pablo said in other ways,you are now insulting peoples intellegence.I do own a bible and I do understand it.But again I do not agree with all of it.

Heres a peice of buddhist scripture that seems fiting here;If a man is in disagrement with you,let him be do not argue back,he will soon find his own error.Thats the nature of reality.

Spirit.


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## Pablo

Ok I dont think I should post any more for a while, all I initially wanted to show is that there is nothing special about the Jehovas in that they have the same problems and issues as the other Churches, I think I may have taken things a bit far because I dont believe that they are any better or worse than any other group and I dont mean to insult anybody so I apoligise if I have caused any offence.


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## LOSTONE

I don't consider myself or my personal beliefs to be on trial.

I don't assume to be a prophet of God or to know everything about God.

This is the reason I quote from the bible.

I also have not said on here that I am a Christian or that I am a Jehovah's Witness, this is why I have given information on how to contact Jehovah's Witnesses if anyone wants to hear their defense because I am not a Jehovah's Witness and as far as I know, nobody else around here is either.

Pablo from my understanding, most all Jehovah's Witnesses would not be to bothered by people making accusations against them. Or even by more serious things. Most of these people try to take on the attitude that Jesus had towards the religious leaders who falsely accused him and put him to death. What you should consider when speaking about any religious matter is that you may possibly be speaking against God. Even if you don't believe in God, you may want to consider the possibility and think about it a little. Maybe you already have, I don't know. I just want to remind you that there may be much more to consider here then just peoples feelings.

By the way, I just want to clear up what the word Christan means.

This is from the Dictionary.com website

Chris?tian /ˈkrɪstʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kris-chuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
?adjective
1.	of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.
2.	of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country.
3.	of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades.
4.	exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity.
5.	decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial.
6.	human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn't Christian.
?noun
7.	a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
8.	a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian.
9.	a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren.
10.	the hero of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress.
11.	a male given name.

So to say that Jesus Christ was not a Christian does not even make sense.

And I have said before that even I believe that many so called "Christian religions" are not actually following Jesus teachings. Some of these teachings were very simple for example the two greatest commandments found in the bible are commandments from Jesus.

*Mt 22:36-40
36 ?Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?? 37 He said to him: ??You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.? 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ?You must love your neighbor as yourself.? 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.?
*

If these two basic teachings were followed then we would not have seen all the bloodshed that some so called "Christian religions" have helped to promote. It is pretty clear to me anyway that if you are loving your neighbor then you are not murdering your neighbor.

So I do agree that most so called "Christian religions" are not actually "Christian" but it does not make sense to me to say that Jesus Christ was not a Christian because he is Jesus Christ. His name is what the word Christian comes from. And it does not make sense to me to say that all Christians are now bad because some Christians do not actually follow the teachings of Jesus. I also do not understand when Jesus became a Buddhist.

I don't really care about that though. 
Any connection you have with the thought of Jesus being Buddhist is something I am not going to get into. This is because I have no information on where this teaching or thought comes from. All I know is that it has nothing to do with the bible.

According to the Holy bible that has been translated in over 2,000 languages, Jesus Christ was and still is a servant of Jehovah God.

And since the bible is the book that I believe is inspired by God, this is what I am going to believe myself.

Spirit I do not know that much about the Buddhist religion. I know a bit about Islam and I understand their views and understanding of who Jesus is.

When I speak about Jesus or when I speak about what I believe or about what the Jehovah's Witnesses teach then I am speaking about what the Bible says. I am not speaking about the Islam or Buddhist faith or teachings. I am speaking about what the bible says. That is why I quote from the bible.



> t seems somehow you have distorted the argument here.I never had a problem with you defending your religion.I dont remember anyone here acuseing you of being a child molester nor saying that you do not exist,how can you use those examples to defend your defence argument when those arguments were not what you were defending.
> And as pablo said in other ways,you are now insulting peoples intellegence.I do own a bible and I do understand it.But again I do not agree with all of it.


Spirit I don't know how I have insulted anyones intelligence, if you feel that way then it might have more to do with your own perceptions then it has to do with my motivations or actions or words.

What you said about distorting an argument does not make sense. I never said that anyone accused me of anything. I don't know where you are getting this from, If you can find a quote then please show me so I can see it. The Jehovah's Witnesses have been accused of some wrongdoing and many people say often that God does not exist. These are accusations and my point was about these accusations and not about some accusation made toward me. So I am not sure why you said that you "don't remember anyone here accusing you of being a child molester nor saying that you do not exist".

I never said this was about me and I never said this was about you. What I was asking was for you to put yourself in the position of the Jehovah's Witnesses or Jehovah God considering the accusations being made.

I was asking a hypothetical question. A question that I was hoping would maybe raise some empathy for the accused. I don't know how I was insulting you or anyone else by doing this.

Anyway as I said, I don't take anything personal about religion or even about my beliefs.

And there is not much point in me wasting my time if nobody is listening to me anyway.

Spirit I do not believe that people will find their own error if I simply "let them be". I believe in the bible and the bible makes it pretty clear to me that many people will continue in their error until their death. But there are scriptures in the bible that make me think I should stop speaking here.

I did not even get on dpselfhelp to talk about religion. 
I think the only reason this subject was brought up is because of my sig line. And it is very hard for me to not say anything when I see others talking about this subject.

I think that the biggest thing I probably need to get in my head is proper timing of things. There is a time and a place for everything and I don't think this is the right time or place. Even when I first got on dpselfhelp I thought it was odd that their was a spiritual section here on a mental illness website.

I think that many people who are ill are the very people who need spiritual support but I don't think that this is the proper place for that support. And so I find myself wondering what I am even still doing here talking about God. My time would be better spent in the proper place doing things at the proper time.

I think the reason I say anything here is because of what I have been through with DP/DR. 
After living through what I have been through I feel more for people around here then I do for most other people. And I care more about people with DP/DR then I do for most other people in the world. But I also realize that not everyone here even has DP/DR and not everyone here has dealt with DP/DR to the extent that I have.

Anyway I just unchecked the "notify" icon so I won't know anymore if someone replies to this. I don't want to spend anymore time on here.

If anyone really cares to continue this conversation with me then send me an email.


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## comfortably numb

Pablo said:


> Bible based Christian religions like the Catholic church and the Jehovas Witnesses create guilt around sex so practitioners of these religions repress their healthy natural sexual urges into their subconscious and when a drive is repressed it is now in the dark of the psyche, but the drive still exists and needs some sort of expression so it comes out in unhealthy perverted ways like paedophilia, which explains why there are so many paedos in these religions.
> 
> When Jesus associated evil with darkness he was talking about the darkness of the unconscious mind in my opinion.


 Well i don't know if thats the reason why there where so many perverts in the church i think it had alot to do with easy access to children and the fact that these people where trusted members of society so they wouldnt dare molest a child. Or so thats the way people thought for years thus pedophiles operated with immunity for a long goddamn time.

It was only when people stopped covering up for churches and religious leaders that all these dirty little secrets came out. Well more like atrocities in my book and yes it happens in just about every religion why would the jehovahs witness crowd be any different? Perverts come in all religions.

One thing we can thank god for is that alot more people question religion now and just don't follow it mindlessly. So these types of mass criminality shouldnt go on now. Atleast for very long without getting busted.

Also religion repressing sex is just stupid and repressing sex is always a bad thing. It's plain unhealthy. Sex is normal and guess what we where meant to get it on so why repress it and throw guilt into it? The less it's repressed and the more people just start accepting that sex is normal and a good thing and stop feeling guilty about it the better off we will all be.

I met a person (now a good friend of mine) who was a member of a well known very radical protestant religion until she was about 19 or 20 and her head was so full of religious shit it wasn't even funny. She grew up believing sex was bad and only for procreation, all other religions are evil, and basically any form of fun was evil as well.

She was all messed up and confused for awile after she got out of that and into the modern century but shes doing good now. She left when she realized that what she had been taught was basically just shit. How anyone could live like that for that long is beyond me though.


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## Guest

/


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## LOSTONE

> If you choose to leave here again,hopefully that is your own decision.I hope you are not leaving here just because people have disagreements with you.


No disagreements don't really bother me that much.

The biggest reason I need to stay away from here is because of time.

The next reason is because of misunderstandings.

Internet forums seem to only be a black hole for time. Thats all I think any internet forum amounts to if you get into serious subjects.

Anyway spirit, I do not feel bad toward any individual and never will. I have even sent letters of forgiveness and apology to some people who have done a lot to ruin my entire life.

I don't take things very personally anymore at all and I do not fear death or anything else anymore. I have finally accepted whatever reality falls upon me as being totally real. Still I am a very serious minded person and this personality can cause problems when I am speaking online with people. It would be hard for me to explain what I mean by "serious minded" but if you knew me in person then you would probably not have to ask.


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## Guest

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## LOSTONE

> I love what you say about having sent letters of forgiveness to people who have done alot to ruin your life,thats a very noble quality,and its also a big part of healing,its wonderfull when you can come to a place of acceptance and forgiveness.


There was a time when I seriously hated a lot of people. I even felt a great deal of hate toward God at one time.

It was not an easy lesson for me to learn but I have learned the pointlessness in feeling badly toward anyone.

Even if someone were to be tormenting me for years and years for some reason. I realize that letting myself become overwhelmed with hate and bad feelings would just make the pain worse anyway. It is always better to seek out a way to feel love for others even if they are doing horrible things to you.

Thats what my experience in life has lead me to believe anyway.


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## Guest

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## Pablo

I dont know, for me personaly I have spent the last few years learning how to be angry because if you let people walk all over you it benefits nobody in the long run, I have learned that the hard way. Anger is your friend, you shouldn't let it rule your life but it has a very healthy purpose and it is often the best thing for all concerned to let your anger out.


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## Guest

Gees this thread got over whelming for me... sounds like everything had settled down which is a winner


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## Guest

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