# MDMA therapy?



## wael (Sep 5, 2008)

After several experiences with different medications, i came to the conclusion that a ssri with clonazepam benefits me the most. But still, i feel no affection, no real feelings, numb. The real anxiety/panic and strange depersonalisation/derealisation is quite gone due the meds, but i still feel there is a closed door in my brain that will not open. Even after months of comfortable numb, i cant close the gap. 
Psychotherapy and research was really helpful,and i think i understand why i have this shit, but it is even more frustrating that you know those things that were wrong and destructive, but still can t get the real constructive progress.
Ssri are a part of the solution for me but also blocks me in my progress.

I really want to feel, cry and love. I read about mdma therapy in the late 70/80 and in switserland till 1995. And even at this moment there are discussions about the therapeutic value of mdma/lsd etc.
I also read a lot of personal experiences of people who had a lot of results with pure mdma cristals, and that it was more benifical than years of therapy.
I have no personality disorder, no bipolar or psychotic disorder. Only anxiety resulting in dp/dr. Within a couple of weeks i will try a session with 2 friends, who are informed about my problems and struggles and know me really good. I want to go deep and talk about my feelings, perhaps i can solve some problems/issues that still holds me back. 
Sometimes you have to take a risk in order to benefit. I also discussed it with my psych.
Are there people with any experiences with mdma or xtc (no speed), no induced by it, but after they were dp ed?


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

Fully realizing i'm going to start looking like the anti-drug police on here, but this sounds like a REALLY bad idea.

There may be ongoing research on the therapeutic benefits of it, but there has been research going on about this since the 1970s - if there was something there I think they would have found it by now. The reason they keep researching it is because like any drug that people want to do, it feels so damn good people just don't want to accept the reality that it is bad for you.

You may have an enjoyable experience on the drug, but the comedown from MDMA is horrible - and on top of that if you are already on SSRIs I believe you are at risk of serotonin syndrome which can be life-threatening.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

Matt210 said:


> You may have an enjoyable experience on the drug, but the comedown from MDMA is horrible - and on top of that if you are already on SSRIs I believe you are at risk of serotonin syndrome which can be life-threatening.


I've heard that some places, but most research shows that taking MDMA with an SSRI doesn't have any ill effects. That said, SSRI's usually drastically reduce the effects of MDMA, sometimes to the point where even a recreational dose has no effect. NEVER take MDMA while taking MAOI's.


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## shaolinbomber (Mar 28, 2009)

i highly recommend that you DONT do this. I got DP/DR from mdma. Now grantedi took a large dose but i seriously doubt it will change anything for you. DP/DR researchers seem to think that the disorder stems from abnormal functioning of the serotonin system. MDMA drastically effects and changes that so, again, i think its a bad idea but do what you will.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

shaolinbomber said:


> i highly recommend that you DONT do this. I got DP/DR from mdma. Now grantedi took a large dose but i seriously doubt it will change anything for you. DP/DR researchers seem to think that the disorder stems from abnormal functioning of the serotonin system. MDMA drastically effects and changes that so, again, i think its a bad idea but do what you will.


Agreed. MDMA might help PTSD, but it probably won't be good for DP.


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## wael (Sep 5, 2008)

> DP/DR researchers seem to think that the disorder stems from abnormal functioning of the serotonin system


With respect to all researchers, i really think they haven''t got any concrete idea of how the brain works regarding mental illness. The simple statement about serotonin deficit is more commercial than science.



> MDMA might help PTSD, but it probably won't be good for DP.


What if dp is caused by a trauma. I can pinpoint my onset after a suicide 3 years ago.



> but most research shows that taking MDMA with an SSRI doesn't have any ill effects. That said, SSRI's usually drastically reduce the effects of MDMA, sometimes to the point where even a recreational dose has no effect. NEVER take MDMA while taking MAOI's


That true! The fear of serotonin syndrom is heavly overestimated when ssri are combined with speed/xtc/pure mdma.

I know it is quite a unconventional way of helping yourself, but i think when i have the proper preperation, a good surrounding with friends, and good vitamins/5 htp/ l-tryptofaan to reduce the possible come down.
But he, i sometimes get so fucked up by not feeling real emotions, i really need to do something. I will see and let it know!


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## shaolinbomber (Mar 28, 2009)

How can you disregard what i said about dp/dr being tied to the sertonergic system when thats how i got this? The only drug i did that night was mdma. I went to bed 1 day later, i wake up in this hell. Please argue this point.


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## wael (Sep 5, 2008)

I dont disregard what you said! dp/dr being is probably tied to the sertonergic system, but probably also to other Monoamine neurotransmitters as dopamine, norepinephrine etc and perhaps all kind of other neurons
I was trying to make a point that pharmacutical organisations put it too easy that its just a problem/deficit of sertonine. Everything is much more complicated and interacted.
And it looks certain that your dp is induced by mdma! 
Because my english writing isnt that top notch, sometimes i cant express myself clearly.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

Highly psychoactive drugs are not the way to go if you want to _treat_ DP/DR. Maybe it would help for dealing with traumatic memories, but I feel like it would only have merit for other disorders where connection to reality and unhinged thinking aren't a problem.


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## shaolinbomber (Mar 28, 2009)

im trying to give you some good advice here man. Dont self medicate with mdma. It probably even runs the risk of making your condition worse.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

If you are going to try this try and get MDMA. Not 80% methamphetamine, 10% ephedrine and 10% MDMA. Test the stuff to make sure you know whats in it.

The reason there has been ongoing research into this for so long is because it's so damn hard to research it because of it's schedule 1 status in the US. It has nothing to do with how good it feels. It's the same thing with psilocybin and LSD it's damn near impossible to get a permit to research these drugs. All these drugs could benefit people for various conditions but it's really hard to do research with schedule 1 drugs.

Also taking MDMA with ssri's won't usually result in serotonin syndrome but most of the time it will block the effects of the MDMA.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

MDMA has that status for a reason. I know the U.S. is a little nuts with drugs, but can anyone really say they think its a good idea to treat anything with Acid or Ecstasy? It just defies all logic IMO.

I have heard countless recovery stories in my time on these boards, talking with psychiatrists, doing research on my own, reading books, etc. and in all this time I have never once heard of anyone recovering from using recreational drugs. Some people get to the point where they are able to do recreational drugs without any negative effects, but that is the best case scenario.

Worst case scenario is you join the ranks of thousands and thousands of people who have had their lives altered for the worst from these drugs.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

egodeath said:


> shaolinbomber said:
> 
> 
> > i highly recommend that you DONT do this. I got DP/DR from mdma. Now grantedi took a large dose but i seriously doubt it will change anything for you. DP/DR researchers seem to think that the disorder stems from abnormal functioning of the serotonin system. MDMA drastically effects and changes that so, again, i think its a bad idea but do what you will.
> ...


O rly?


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## wael (Sep 5, 2008)

> If you are going to try this try and get MDMA. Not 80% methamphetamine, 10% ephedrine and 10% MDMA. Test the stuff to make sure you know whats in it.


Yeah of course. Im only interested in MDMA, and i have cristals, no pills. And i will test it, before i use it!


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## shaolinbomber (Mar 28, 2009)

wael said:


> > If you are going to try this try and get MDMA. Not 80% methamphetamine, 10% ephedrine and 10% MDMA. Test the stuff to make sure you know whats in it.
> 
> 
> Yeah of course. Im only interested in MDMA, and i have cristals, no pills. And i will test it, before i use it!


and just so you know, once you've ingested the drug and it takes effect, theres no stopping it until its over with. So if you dont like it or start to panic you're gonna be fucked.


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## wael (Sep 5, 2008)

@shaolin

I appreciate your concerns! Im not sure yet, but i give me safe feeling that i have something to fall back to. I have a bunch of benzo s in my room, but i never use it, except for clonazepam 0.5 mg.
I will see.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

The chances of panicking on MDMA are pretty much zero. It's much gentler then tryptamines like psilocybin and LSD and the stuff hardly counts as a psycxhedelic. It's more of a empathogen then anything else. Also clonazepam or another benzo like diazepam will calm you down if you do happpen to freak out. Ive seen people really wigging out on psilocybin and after 10-20mg's of valium they are fine. I even ruined a good trip i had going when i was younger after taking 10mg's of valium because i didnt know it would slow the trip down.

Most legal drugs are more dangerous then MDMA, psilocybin or LSD.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

comfortably numb said:


> Most legal drugs are more dangerous then MDMA, psilocybin or LSD.


Yeah, but they don't fuck with your sanity the same way. I've only tried MDMA once and there was absolutely nothing bad about it, but I can hardly see its therapeutic potential for DP/DR. The high is not sustainable and prolonged use has too many negative effects.


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## shaolinbomber (Mar 28, 2009)

egodeath said:


> comfortably numb said:
> 
> 
> > Most legal drugs are more dangerous then MDMA, psilocybin or LSD.
> ...


^^ agreed. Everything about MDMA is fake. Once the drug wears off, so does the euphoria and you're back where you were at before, if not worse.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

comfortably numb said:


> Most legal drugs are more dangerous then MDMA, psilocybin or LSD.


That really depends on your definition of dangerous. They may not kill you, but they can screw you up real good. You are one of the smartest guys on here, especially when it comes to drugs - you've got to understand the reasons that MDMA, LSD, etc. are illegal and the drugs that are legal are legal. People didn't just decide that they were going to hate on MDMA. I admit the anti-drug lobby is nuts, and the U.S. is particularly nuts about drugs - but there is a good reason why ecstasy is advised against.

I'm not saying that any drug being illegal necessarily benefits society, all i'm saying is that they've done a decent job in choosing which drugs should and should not be illegal (if any are going to be) except maybe in the case of marijuana, but there are exceptions for marijuana in which it is made legal.

Either way, the original poster seems to have made up their mind and seems to understand the risks - thats about all you can ask for. Hopefully it turns out well for you.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

^^^ Umm you do realize how most or rather all drugs became illegal don't you? Sensationalist media and over reaction by the cops. OMG little johhnny is on E and having fun we have to stop this evil drug! See pretty much it. Alot of other drugs became illegal under analog acts as in if something is even somewhat closely related to methamphetamine for a example it's made illegal even if it's effects are nothing like it.

Alcohol is the national drug and people regard the use of any other drug as bad. Why is this? Ive been in the middle of 1 or 2 alcohol fueled riots where everyone is going at it and smashing up the cops as well (the good old days how i miss em :mrgreen: ) but ive never seen anyone get nasty or violent under the influence of MDMA, psilocybin, LSD or many of the other interesting tryptamines and phenethylamines out there.

Basically what im saying is drug laws make no sense at all.


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## shaolinbomber (Mar 28, 2009)

Alcohol is definitely one of the leading contributers to problems in this country but thats when its abused at serious levels. Shit like LSD, shrooms, MDMA, do not have to be abused to cause problems in individuals. Small doses of any of that shit can alter peoples minds if they aren't ready for it. I was even prepared when i took my dose of MDMA that fucked me up and i still got the shit end of the stick coming out on the other side. I use to think that i was young and invincable before i came down with mild HPPD symptoms and fucking DR. Now i know this is not the case. I wish i would of been smarter than thinking i can do anything without harm being brought on but shit, life sucks then you die.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

Again, i'm not taking sides on whether or not certain drugs should or should not be illegal. I'm undecided on the issue. I'm saying that IF drugs are to be made illegal, they made some very rational choices about which ones should be illegal. Alcohol and Marijuana are two that you could debate - that with the current rational behind making drugs legal/illegal both could be pushed from one category into the other, etc.

You can't be serious if you think MDMA was banned simply because people have fun while on it. It can screw you up really bad, i've seen plenty of evidence of it. Enough to ensure that I will never touch it in my life. It's not even in the same class as alcohol. You seem to be basing your decisions on what kind of social problems they cause. Alcohol is brutal to society - the amount of violence, injury, and death caused by it would be surpassed by few things in the world. But the personal risk in terms of well-being the person from moderate alcohol use to moderate MDMA use aren't even comparable.


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## shaolinbomber (Mar 28, 2009)

Matt210 said:


> Again, i'm not taking sides on whether or not certain drugs should or should not be illegal. I'm undecided on the issue. I'm saying that IF drugs are to be made illegal, they made some very rational choices about which ones should be illegal. Alcohol and Marijuana are two that you could debate - that with the current rational behind making drugs legal/illegal both could be pushed from one category into the other, etc.
> 
> You can't be serious if you think MDMA was banned simply because people have fun while on it. It can screw you up really bad, i've seen plenty of evidence of it. Enough to ensure that I will never touch it in my life. It's not even in the same class as alcohol. You seem to be basing your decisions on what kind of social problems they cause. Alcohol is brutal to society - the amount of violence, injury, and death caused by it would be surpassed by few things in the world. *But the personal risk in terms of well-being the person from moderate alcohol use to moderate MDMA use aren't even comparable*.


spot on matt. I think alot of users of mdma will start to see problems in their late 20's/early 30's and see them continue to worsen as they get older.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

MDMA was a big fucking drug in the gay scene and clubs in the 80's. Thats how it became popular before then it was a little known chemical. But the law makers caught on that people where havin fun with it. It was banned in the US around 85 i think. So ya do the math on that one.

Im drunk now and too lazy too look up dates so im going by memory. I love my alcohol. Way too much  .


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

comfortably numb said:


> MDMA was a big flower* drug in the gay scene and clubs in the 80's. Thats how it became popular before then it was a little known chemical. But the law makers caught on that people where havin fun with it. It was banned in the US around 85 i think. So ya do the math on that one.
> 
> Im drunk now and too lazy too look up dates so im going by memory. I love my alcohol. Way too much  .


I don't doubt that MDMA is usually a fun drug, and that it became popular as a result of this. I also don't doubt that its popularity led to it being banned - it would be difficult to ban a drug you don't know about.

But do you think the government looked at MDMA and said "People are having fun, this must be stopped!" or is it more likely they looked at the therapeutic potentials for MDMA, and then looked at the potential risks and made a decision that way?

Don't get me wrong, i'm sure there were plenty of people with the closed-minded attitude that any drug people were taking recreationally should be banned. I also wouldn't doubt that if MDMA does have roots in the gay club scene, that there would be an aspect of homophobia behind it.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

Matt210 said:


> I don't doubt that MDMA is usually a fun drug, and that it became popular as a result of this. I also don't doubt that its popularity led to it being banned - it would be difficult to ban a drug you don't know about.
> 
> But do you think the government looked at MDMA and said "People are having fun, this must be stopped!" or is it more likely they looked at the therapeutic potentials for MDMA, and then looked at the potential risks and made a decision that way?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, i'm sure there were plenty of people with the closed-minded attitude that any drug people were taking recreationally should be banned. I also wouldn't doubt that if MDMA does have roots in the gay club scene, that there would be an aspect of homophobia behind it.


Knowing Protestant America, would you really be so surprised? It's drug history time!!! Here we go, class, please save any questions for the end of lecture:

On January 16, 1922 the 18th Amendment to the US Constitution was effected and alcohol, America's (and most of the free or not free world's) favorite ingredient, used in drinks such as beer and whiskey among others, became illegal. The powerful influence of temperance societies touting the bad effects of alcohol are usually blamed, and that sounds reasonable, so let's go with that. It wasn't until December 5, 1933 that the 21st Amendment re-legalized the drug. In that time the US had lost something like $500M in tax revenues (1920-30 dollars, of course) and powerful crime organizations like THE MAFIA had made tons selling alcohol on the black market. Does that sound like something that's going on now? (Hint: Pablo Escobar in the 80's, Mexico now.) Well, that little experiment failed because _everyone_ liked alcohol. Then, in 1937 Cannabis was made federally illegal in the U.S. with the passage of the Marijuana Tax Act; many attribute this to a smear campaign run by Andrew Mellon and financial tycoons who stood to gain money from making hemp illegal. There went the possibility of legally enjoying a doobie. On October 24, 1968 LSD and psilocybin was banned after the gadam hippies with their protests against the wars and the guns and their blasphemous free love and whatnot had their Acid Tests and their druggie bullshit...what was I saying? Then there was the DMT ban in 1971...I really don't need to keep going. You get the point. The United States has a bad relationship with drugs. Cigarettes kill more people every year than LSD or Adam (MDMA) ever did and they don't even get you _high_, but they're legal. So I guess my point is: there's no solid criteria that's been developed to decide whether or not a drug is legal. The government doesn't really care if it kills you, they just don't need the subversion and social change that drugs seem to have the potential to cause. The drug lobby is more complicated than that, but MDMA is probably illegal (banned May 31, 1985) because too many people were having too much fun. It got no attention when therapists were experimenting with it as a tool to fix damaged relationships. And there are plenty of other drugs out there that haven't drawn the attention of the conservatives yet (Amanita, Morning Glory, etc). So yes, its popularity definitely led to its being banned but, as for its potential to cause harm, the literature on its ill effects is way too inconclusive to merit a Schedule I status. I do believe it could be useful in controlled settings to treat some disorders (I'm still pretty certain using it to help DPD, especially by yourself, would be a terrible idea), but oh well. C'est la vie.

Any questions, class?


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

Alcohol kills 50 times more people a year than all illegal drugs combined and costs the american people 130 billion dollars a year in damage.


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## shaolinbomber (Mar 28, 2009)

i think enough studies on MDMA have been done to know that its definitely not GOOD for you. I mean shit anyone whos done the drug can tell you that you feel worn out and spacey on a regular come down off of it. So much stress is put on your brain when you roll.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

shaolinbomber said:


> i think enough studies on MDMA have been done to know that its definitely not GOOD for you. I mean shit anyone whos done the drug can tell you that you feel worn out and spacey on a regular come down off of it. So much stress is put on your brain when you roll.


Of course it's not _good_ for you. I can think of few psychoactive substances that are _good_ for you, save very moderate amounts of caffeine or red wine. That's not what it's about, though. What is the justification for allowing alcohol and cigarettes to be legal and classifying MDMA as Schedule I. Is there really "no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States" for MDMA (see current studies with PTSD) or "a lack of accepted safety for use of the drug or other substance under medical supervision"? And is there any currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States for cigarettes or alcohol and doesn't alcohol present a similar "lack of accepted safety for use of the drug or other substance under medical supervision"? How many people die from rolling on E every year? How many people get wasted and wrap their cars around trees or, worse, kill innocents?


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

I guess we'll just call it a difference in opinion. I don't particularly like alcohol either - I understand the damage it causes. But I think we have to be realistic and look at the amount of people using alcohol as compared to MDMA when we are pulling statistics on the damage it causes to society. I also think that those numbers are missing the most important thing: the psychological consequences of taking a drug like MDMA.

As i've said, I drink alcohol from time to time - I would never touch MDMA. You can tell me all you want that is just because of the legal stigma of MDMA, but I can assure you it has absolutely nothing to do with that. I think we are kidding ourselves if we are discussing alcohol as more risky to personal well-being than a drug like MDMA.

I think the only argument that is valid in terms of drug legality issues is that people should be able to make their own decisions about their own well-being. If we are indeed correct that MDMA would cause minimal damage to society and only to the individual that takes it - then you could certainly argue that the individual should have the right to choose to take this risk. I don't necessarily disagree with this, which is why i've said i'm not for or against drugs being legal.


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## shaolinbomber (Mar 28, 2009)

Matt210 said:


> I guess we'll just call it a difference in opinion. I don't particularly like alcohol either - I understand the damage it causes. But I think we have to be realistic and look at the amount of people using alcohol as compared to MDMA when we are pulling statistics on the damage it causes to society. I also think that those numbers are missing the most important thing: the psychological consequences of taking a drug like MDMA.
> 
> As i've said, I drink alcohol from time to time - I would never touch MDMA. You can tell me all you want that is just because of the legal stigma of MDMA, but I can assure you it has absolutely nothing to do with that. I think we are kidding ourselves if we are discussing alcohol as more risky to personal well-being than a drug like MDMA.
> 
> I think the only argument that is valid in terms of drug legality issues is that people should be able to make their own decisions about their own well-being. If we are indeed correct that MDMA would cause minimal damage to society and only to the individual that takes it - then you could certainly argue that the individual should have the right to choose to take this risk. I don't necessarily disagree with this, which is why i've said i'm not for or against drugs being legal.


Yes, people should be allowed to make their own choices, however people (like me) are stupid and over do it alot and cause alot more harm than necessary. THATS WHY MDMA is illegal .Its potential for abuse is so very high and the consequences of abuse of MDMA is MUCH greater on an individuals psyche than alcohol ever would be. It takes YEARS of alcohol abuse to do enough brain damage to be equal to maybe a year or two of MDMA abuse.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm not for legalizing MDMA. I'm just pointing out how f*cked the system is.


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## wael (Sep 5, 2008)

Just to separate the personal from the literature, you can conclude that mdma is interesting for its therapeutical value. Important is set and setting and attitudes toward new experiences. There are risks, especially when the former isnt there.
Here are some (parts) abstracts from recent studies:

Its acute mood effects can be very positive and life enhancing, and the affirmative cognitions engendered during MDMA therapy may well endure afterwards. However, MDMA also has a number of potential anti-therapeutic characteristics. Acutely, it can also intensify negative cognitions, and these may similarly endure over time
Psychotherapists have found that setting, intention, and expectancy are crucial for a positive outcome, but these factors cannot be guaranteed. Post-MDMA, there is a period of neurotransmitter recovery when low moods predominate, and these may exacerbate psychiatric distress. Finally, diathesis?stress models suggest that psychiatric individuals are more prone to acute and chronic abreactions to CNS stimulants such as MDMA (Parrott, 2007)

The therapists' belief was that MDMA inhibited the fear response to a perceived emotional threat, allowing the client to place the emotional sequelae of past experiences into a more realistic perspective in their current emotional lives and relationships. Also the importance of set and setting is evident. (Greer & Tolbert, 1998)

Clinical studies of MDMA have been hindered by the fear of harming participants through MDMA-induced neurotoxicity. However, experimental animal studies and brain imaging studies of recreational Ecstasy users have not evidenced that a therapeutic dose of MDMA would be sufficient to cause long-term serotonergic deficits. Furthermore, the issue of potential neurotoxicity may not be as important as it first seems since certain chemicals have been shown to protect against MDMA-induced neurotoxicity. Although clinical studies conducted thus far have been promising, more research into the effects of MDMA administration in humans is needed before solid conclusions can be made in respect to the possibility of safely using MDMA as an adjunct to therapy. Finally, a clear distinction should be maintained between the recreational and clinical use of MDMA. (Guillot, 2005)

Exposure therapy is known to be an effective treatment for anxiety disorders. Nevertheless, exposure is not used as much as it should be, and instead patients are often given supportive medications such as serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) and benzodiazepines, which may even interfere with the extinction learning that is the aim of treatment. Given that randomized controlled trials are now investigating a few doses of ?3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, ?ecstasy') in combination with psychotherapy for treatment-resistant anxiety disorders, we would like to suggest the following three mechanisms for this potentially important new approach: 1) MDMA increases oxytocin levels, which may strengthen the therapeutic alliance; 2) MDMA increases ventromedial prefrontal activity and decreases amygdala activity, which may improve emotional regulation and decrease avoidance and 3) MDMA increases norepinephrine release and circulating cortisol levels, which may facilitate emotional engagement and enhance extinction of learned fear associations
Thus, MDMA has a combination of pharmacological effects that, in a therapeutic setting, could provide a balance of activating emotions while feeling safe and in control, as described in case reports of MDMA-augmented psychotherapy. Further clinical and preclinical studies of the therapeutic value of MDMA are indicated. (Johansen & Krebs, 2009).

This is just for the people that are interested in the literature. The question to use mdma for personal gain is not evident.

My interest in mdma is perhaps more to get out this fucked up non-feeling state. As 2 great philosophers stated: Live for nothing or die for something (Rambo, J) or Live free or Die hard (McCain, J) :twisted:


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

Matt210 said:


> MDMA has that status for a reason. I know the U.S. is a little nuts with drugs, but can anyone really say they think its a good idea to treat anything with Acid or Ecstasy? It just defies all logic IMO.
> 
> I have heard countless recovery stories in my time on these boards, talking with psychiatrists, doing research on my own, reading books, etc. and in all this time I have never once heard of anyone recovering from using recreational drugs. Some people get to the point where they are able to do recreational drugs without any negative effects, but that is the best case scenario.
> 
> Worst case scenario is you join the ranks of thousands and thousands of people who have had their lives altered for the worst from these drugs.


MDMA use to be used in therapy sessions to treat several different mental problems, just as now several other drugs are prescribed. MDMA was made illegal after the company making them screwed up a batch resulting in Parkinson's disease for many people. I've read countless stories of people having life changing experiences on MDMA. If you buy Ecstasy from Joe Blow down the street you may think you're getting the real deal when just as Comfortably Numb wrote, it could be 10% MDMA, 90% Methamphetamine mixed with god only knows what.

Heroin has a bad rep because it's illegal when there are many pharmaceutical opiate based drugs similar to or even stronger than Heroin and all of a sudden people think nothing of it. I'm sure if the doctor said "Here is your prescription for Heroin" the patient would freak out.

Many people with ADD/ADHD are prescribed Adderall aka speed. People think :shock: speed is dangerous. Well no shit it is, but half the people who think that are probably using it. In the U.S. Methamphetamine is prescribed to people with ADHD and even people who have obesity problems. They don't flinch since it's under brand name "Desoxyn".

Benzodiazepines are just as dangerous or more than certain illegal drugs. Any drug you take you are gambling with, just because you have a prescription for it doesn't make it less dangerous or anything less than a drug.


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## shaolinbomber (Mar 28, 2009)

surfingisfun001 said:


> Matt210 said:
> 
> 
> > MDMA has that status for a reason. I know the U.S. is a little nuts with drugs, but can anyone really say they think its a good idea to treat anything with Acid or Ecstasy? It just defies all logic IMO.
> ...


just fyi, you cannot bind heroin with mdma into pressed pill form. Anyone who says they've gotten heroin based is full of shit or does not know what they're talking about.


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

you're right, i just looked that up. must be a marketing tactic. :?


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## HereIsEverywhere (Dec 22, 2008)

Ok I started reading most of the posts but lost focus when it got very technical, and though I have done a lot of reasearch on the whole drug war matter I'm going to give my opinion.

I've done it twice. The first time I was at the peak of my mental health... ok maybe coming down from the peak but I was still in good spirits. It was amazing, the come down was almost nothing (there was a moment of panic then I smoke some pot and it went away and I gently came down and still felt awesome the next night when I did shrooms... I know. Not super smart but it wasn't a usual occurrence). Anyhow... the 2nd time was awful. It was the same people (its an annual trip with my friends), a different year, my life was more turbulent and I was really depressed a lot and DPed a lot (before I even knew what it was). The trip was just plain bad. There wasn't ever a peak, I was just overwhelmingly sad. And then I slept for 24 hours... and still felt dead. Literally, I could hardly walk. When I thought I was feeling better about 30 or so hours later at least, maybe more like 45, I went to take a shower and I still had my damn bra on I was so out of it!! I had done shrooms the day before, instead of the day after this time, and I actually had some amazing epiphanies on the shrooms but therapy it was not. I probably could have had them having similar (less altered) talks with my friends that night. I dunno, maybe not.

I've lost my point so I'll try to bring it back to something here... Someone above me said the effect are "fake" and just wear off. I don't think that's the case. If it was that could be said about ANY emotions. The truth is we never know what we are "really" feeling, and what is just chemicals, whether it be from inside our bodies or out.

I think... if you want to take it to not be numb, be prepared to not be numb. In my experience it brings out the good and the bad too fast and it is VERY overwhelming. Being numb so long and then suddenly feeling much more than even a normal person is not really a good idea. And that feeling of being overwhelmed could send you into an emotional spiral (which happened with me) and then back to being numb again. It is a very depressing feeling knowing the joys that you are missing AND realizing the sorrows you are avoiding to protect yourself but leads you to losing those joys. Its like a cyclone. Or as I like to call it 'cranial explosions'.

I think you should try to find a way to ease yourself back into things. Slowly bring the emotions to the surface...

ETA: and even with those emotions going nuts, I still think I was DP as all hell throughout it. Which leads me to think its not just about being emotionally numb. Its something deeper. (On shrooms for example I started crying when I didn't feel sad at all and then realized how sad I actually was AFTER I was crying. It was one of the weirdest things I've ever experienced...)


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

HereIsEverywhere said:


> Or as I like to call it 'cranial explosions'.


Oh my God, what have I done?
All I wanted was a little fun.
Got a brain like bubblegum,
Blowing up my cranium.


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## shaolinbomber (Mar 28, 2009)

All MDMA does is give you a fake happiness. If you were sad before you took the drug, then you will be sad when the effects wear off. Its as simple as that.


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## HereIsEverywhere (Dec 22, 2008)

shaolinbomber said:


> All MDMA does is give you a fake happiness. If you were sad before you took the drug, then you will be sad when the effects wear off. Its as simple as that.


I don't know if fake is the right way to put it. Sure it is an artificial boost of serotonin, but bipolar folks and others get random boosts and lulls of serotonin all the time naturally. Is it "fake" if it comes from an imbalance too?

We all have reasons to be happy and reasons to be sad. And some of us just have negative filters (if not going through any special circumstances) and positive filters, and some pretty neutral filters on the world... I don't think the drug boosting your happiness is fake, its just bringing out something that was there. Things you couldn't appreciate before maybe. For example, friends will express how much they love each other (at least my friends). It's not fake, its very true, they just don't normally feel comfortable or compelled enough to say it in such a way.


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## shaolinbomber (Mar 28, 2009)

HereIsEverywhere said:


> shaolinbomber said:
> 
> 
> > All MDMA does is give you a fake happiness. If you were sad before you took the drug, then you will be sad when the effects wear off. Its as simple as that.
> ...


you're right. The drug allows you to express yourself that you wouldn't be able to normally. Just like alcohol. But MDMA has such a major impact on your CNS. YOur brain is not meant to withstand mass amounts of serotonin that MDMA releases.

So mypoint is, the drug gives you a false sense of hope, happiness, euphoria, whatever you want to call it. And once your serotonin has been used up your back to where you were before. Some people even report that they regret things they do while under the influence, which only supports my point even more.


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## HereIsEverywhere (Dec 22, 2008)

shaolinbomber said:


> HereIsEverywhere said:
> 
> 
> > shaolinbomber said:
> ...


I can agree with that. The come down is very depressing. I'm wasn't condoning the use of it at all, just merely making a point.

I didn't regret anything I did but then again I'm used to my brain's rollercoaster of emotions, speaking out too often when the emotional burner is too hot, and then regretting it later. When I'm upset at least. Doing things and saying things that expressed my love for my friends wasn't anything to regret for me, though some might be embarrassed by it later...

For me it was a double edged sword. The first time (the good time) gave me a huge sense of hope. For example, I sang and I wasn't scared or nervous and I thought I sounded beautiful. People have told me a lot that I have a beautiful voice but I'm so nervous, so self-conscious, that I always feel like I sound bad. And the nerves do lead me to sounding bad because a throat doesn't work well tense. So... that night made me realize I have it in me, I just have to harness it. But that realization is also a very sad one. It makes me sad to think I have so much potential (in all things, not just singing, that's not a huge part of my life) that I can't seem to reach.

So yea... its a feeling of hope and sadness. I don't necessarily thing false hope though.


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## shaolinbomber (Mar 28, 2009)

I don't know if fake is the right way to put it. Sure it is an artificial boost of serotonin, but bipolar folks and others get random boosts and lulls of serotonin all the time naturally. Is it "fake" if it comes from an imbalance too?

We all have reasons to be happy and reasons to be sad. And some of us just have negative filters (if not going through any special circumstances) and positive filters, and some pretty neutral filters on the world... I don't think the drug boosting your happiness is fake, its just bringing out something that was there. Things you couldn't appreciate before maybe. For example, friends will express how much they love each other (at least my friends). It's not fake, its very true, they just don't normally feel comfortable or compelled enough to say it in such a way.[/quote]
you're right. The drug allows you to express yourself that you wouldn't be able to normally. Just like alcohol. But MDMA has such a major impact on your CNS. YOur brain is not meant to withstand mass amounts of serotonin that MDMA releases.

So mypoint is, the drug gives you a false sense of hope, happiness, euphoria, whatever you want to call it. And once your serotonin has been used up your back to where you were before. Some people even report that they regret things they do while under the influence, which only supports my point even more.[/quote]

I can agree with that. The come down is very depressing. I'm wasn't condoning the use of it at all, just merely making a point.

I didn't regret anything I did but then again I'm used to my brain's rollercoaster of emotions, speaking out too often when the emotional burner is too hot, and then regretting it later. When I'm upset at least. Doing things and saying things that expressed my love for my friends wasn't anything to regret for me, though some might be embarrassed by it later...

For me it was a double edged sword. The first time (the good time) gave me a huge sense of hope. For example, I sang and I wasn't scared or nervous and I thought I sounded beautiful. People have told me a lot that I have a beautiful voice but I'm so nervous, so self-conscious, that I always feel like I sound bad. And the nerves do lead me to sounding bad because a throat doesn't work well tense. So... that night made me realize I have it in me, I just have to harness it. But that realization is also a very sad one. It makes me sad to think I have so much potential (in all things, not just singing, that's not a huge part of my life) that I can't seem to reach.

So yea... its a feeling of hope and sadness. I don't necessarily thing false hope though.[/quote]

eh, you're kind proving my point even more here.

Its a false hope because you cannot be under the influece of mdma constantly, so once you return to a sober state, you lose that confidence. "Sobre" is a very powerful word. It describes how were meant to be. I believe i was born a shy person. When im under the influence of mood enhancing drugs, the shyness is lifted and i love that, but when it wears off, im back to where i was when i started and the drug had no influence on the way i act sobre. So like i said, its a false hope.


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## HereIsEverywhere (Dec 22, 2008)

ah but that's it. I haven't lost that hope. It's an uphill climb but at least I KNOW that I can be better. I might not attain the level of confidence I had on the drug but I know that it is possible. It is in me. And that gives me hope. The closer I CAN come to the heights, the better.

I'm chugging along. Some people can have that confidence sober, why not me?


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

> The drug allows you to express yourself that you wouldn't be able to normally. Just like alcohol. But MDMA has such a major impact on your CNS. YOur brain is not meant to withstand mass amounts of serotonin that MDMA releases.


 Do you think the human brain is meant to withstand the onslaught of neurotransmitters from alcohol? Ive used some goddamn nasty dirty drugs in my time but alcohol is probably the dirtiest drug i have ever used. As in "dirty" i mean by nailing so many different neurotransmitters in the brain hence why alcohol has such varied effects on people.

It's a direct gaba agonist, dopamine agonist, NMDA receptor antagonist and god knows what else it does. So if you throw secobarbital, dextroamphetamine and PCP together you get something like alcohol. Also this is why absinth (the real stuff) has slightly different effects then other forms of alcohol. It has a chemical in it that acts as a gaba antagonist so you don't get as falling down passed out drunk quite as quick as with other forms of alcohol.

As for the false sense of happines argument how is taking MDMA or any other drug creating a "false" sense of happiness? It effects neurotransmitters in the same way that any other form of happiness is caused by. Well ok it's abit more complicated then that but ya get the drift. You might as well call sex a false sense of happiness.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

I think artificial sense of happiness might be a better term than false, but either way the points is valid. There is nothing real about artificially altering your brain chemistry to evoke certain emotions.

However, for some people their brain chemistry is a little off to begin with and thus artificial happiness actually brings them back closer to 'normal' levels.

I don't think there is any right or wrong answer in this debate. We all have our own opinions on drug use and our own habits of drug use. I personally choose to stay away, and believe this to be the wisest decision for my mental health. All I am an advocate of is that everyone understand all the risks of drug use from a neutral and unbiased source before they use the drug.


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## HereIsEverywhere (Dec 22, 2008)

Matt210 said:


> I think artificial sense of happiness might be a better term than false, but either way the points is valid. There is nothing real about artificially altering your brain chemistry to evoke certain emotions.
> 
> However, for some people their brain chemistry is a little off to begin with and thus artificial happiness actually brings them back closer to 'normal' levels.
> 
> I don't think there is any right or wrong answer in this debate. We all have our own opinions on drug use and our own habits of drug use. I personally choose to stay away, and believe this to be the wisest decision for my mental health. All I am an advocate of is that everyone understand all the risks of drug use from a neutral and unbiased source before they use the drug.


Yes but you use prescription drugs right? MDMA was originally made to be for medicinal use... so were many other drugs in the past that are not considered very dangerous. I think MANY of the drugs being prescribed today are going to be outlawed or at least not prescribed in the future once it is realized how dangerous they are.

I tend to stay away from drugs in general as well. How does my 2 times on E and 4 on shrooms over several years compare to someone that's been on prescription drugs every day for several years? I'd venture to guess my brain is much less harmed...


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

Medicine is always progressing, but this debate will come full circle if I fully answer your question. I think SSRIs and Benzos, etc. are legal for a reason. I think if evidence comes to light that they are harmful like MDMA, they will be made illegal. Thus I believe that making drugs illegal is not done for purely political reasons.

I'm not saying that all psychiatric drugs that are legal will stay that way. I don't like to scare myself thinking about it, but I admit there is potential I am doing harm to myself by using them. I am not going to stay on them for much longer. But some people need them, and I honestly do not believe that anyone could 'need' MDMA. The research just doesn't support it, outside of a few studies with PTSD that I believe are far from conclusive.

I have nothing against MDMA by nature. I would flip my view in a second if evidence supported the benefits outweighing the risks. But I do not believe this will ever happen.


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## HereIsEverywhere (Dec 22, 2008)

understandable. I wasn't trying to argue a case for MDMA though it might have seemed like it. Just saying I have a pretty equal distrust for psychiatric drugs. Even if they aren't harmful to everyone per say, they can be very harmful if given to people under inadequate or wrong diagnosis.


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## shaolinbomber (Mar 28, 2009)

The government studies every kind of chemical thats invented before it makes a decision on its legal status. Matt has it spot on. The government is capable of far more than given credit for. They have the top specialists who perform these studies im sure, yet people are quick to assume they dont know what the fuck they are talking about, all because the drug in question makes them feel good. I used to be one of these people, until MDMA brought me to my knees and the after effects its left me with are still kicking me in the face.


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## HereIsEverywhere (Dec 22, 2008)

shaolinbomber said:


> The government studies every kind of chemical thats invented before it makes a decision on its legal status. Matt has it spot on. The government is capable of far more than given credit for. They have the top specialists who perform these studies im sure, yet people are quick to assume they dont know what the flower* they are talking about, all because the drug in question makes them feel good. I used to be one of these people, until MDMA brought me to my knees and the after effects its left me with are still kicking me in the face.


I'm not debating it, I think MDMA should be illegal. Pot on the other hand... well. If alcohol is legal, it should be too. And we all know how prohibition went...

As far as the government and its testing... anyone has a price. Look up aspartame... that's not even a prescription. It's the artificial sweetener they put in a bunch of diet sodas and in flashy pink packets you can add to drinks yourself. The stuff is really, really, bad for you (and don't even get me started on Splenda) and kids can drink it at the will of their uninformed parents. People gulp it down in bucket loads. And cigarettes? We all know that one. How about it was the government doing LSD trials on military members.

No, I don't think the government is incapable because they outlaw drugs that make you feel good. I think they are incapable because they don't take harmful products off the market if there is enough chance to cover up evidence when being bought out.

The government is full of people. And I generally have a distrust of people and their motives, especially when people with money are interested in the monetary value of their products more than the product being effective.

end hippie rant.


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## Together_again (May 14, 2009)

SWIM first suffered from DR about 15 years ago and I know I shouldn't say this and I don't wish to encourage anyone to go down this route but as SWIM's anxiety became milder and the DR level dropped SWIM used amphetamines and I have to say that it really did work it was the only time SWIM felt normal again, focused and happy. SWIM limited his use to once a week and took a decent sized dose.

SWIM knows it sounds contradictory as amphetamine is known to cause anxiety feelings but for SWIM the opposite happened. SWIM talked to his counsellor about this SWIM remembesr telling her that on Friday nights SWIM went to his island, his island in a sea of misery and SWIM regrouped, refocused and gained enough confidence to carry on through the days till the next visit.

SWIM would never have dared try it when his condition was acute though.

SWIM can also see that this is a very easy way to get yourself hooked on speed, SWIM claims he has excellent will power and managed to not let this happen though for a couple of years SWIM was kind of dependant on it but at the time SWIM felt he had no other choice.

Like I said earlier I am only telling you about SWIM's personal experience out of interest and SWIM would definitely not recommended this to anyone!

I would also like to add that SWIM was an experienced drug user and had been through the whole spectrum of psychoactive substances, mainly LSD, which was the cause of SWIM's anxiety in the first place, after many happy doses SWIM finally went charging through the dark wood and never fully returned, SWIM wouldn't recommend that either unless you have a very resilient mind!

SWIM is free of anxiety (well at that debilitating level) and DR now, the DR went when SWIM learned to control his anxiety.


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## nicolerenee (Jun 18, 2009)

Are you serious?
Did you know that MDMA can CAUSE dr/dp?
Ive done e, and every time i've done it, it makes my dr/dp worse.
Think about it. You're already gone. Why would you want to lose yourself anymore?
When I did it I blacked out very often. It was really fun, and really scary at the same time.
You'll love it in the beginning, but it can ruin your life, and make your anxiety worse.
I mean, sure, try it..but I can almost promise you you'll come out of it more depressed, and with way more anxiety problems.
Also, even weeks and months after you do it, when you exercise, it feels like youre rolling again.


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## wael (Sep 5, 2008)

Yeah im quit serious. I think mdma can have a lot of therapeutic value if the setting is right. Sadly it's a schedule 1 drug, so research is very difficult.
Yeah, you can take mdma and go party or you can try to solve underlying issues/trauma's by talking with friends/family. I so really want to cry or scream, but it is so difficult to resolve dp/dr if you can reach your emotions.
But i just started the discussion, to hear experiences from other members. I have the mdma cristals for a month already, but I haven't had the need or the confidence to use it.


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## nicolerenee (Jun 18, 2009)

your doctor prescribed you the mdma?
thats sooooo crazy.
i believe it could help though.


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

Did you try the MDMA Wael? If so how did it go?


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

Is Together_Again wearing lipstick?


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

I think pure MDMA could be very useful for therapy, but getting E off the street is a bad idea unless you have a test kit which will tell you what's in your roll. Also, if it's for therapeutic purposes then don't be using it for a techno party. The best use would be sitting down, talking with someone close about your life. In that scenario, MDMA could be like 20 years of psychotherapy. This may not be useful for someone who only has dp. It's best for those suffering from PTSD.


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## wael (Sep 5, 2008)

No im to pussy to try!! 
The last half year im doing better, no depression, almost no anxiety, but im still checking in. Im still in my shell and i cant break it!. Fuck it. Im really busy right now, without stressing out. Im on 50 mg of lamotrigine and 0.75mg clona, which activates me without making me anxious. I think it not mine therapeutical dose, maybe its just its side effect thats beneficial for me. If i go up, side effects worsen. Pain in my neck, too much stimulation etc.

Im trying to visit this forum just ones a week nowadays, to weaken this dp institution. Its probably a good thing to admit, but i think im doing too "good" right now to use mdma. But i really want to have a calm, clear feeling, but im still struggling. But i have got something to focus on, my study.


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## Zee Deveel (Aug 3, 2009)

As someone that has done a crap load of MDMA in my time.

I would say that MDMA will only increase your anxiety and feelings of unreality. It's a lot of fun but it messes your head up pretty badly, I can't see that it could possibly help you.

Acid seems like it'd have a better chance of being beneficial, check out some literature on Timothy Leary if you're interested in that. He's a big advocate of using LSD to treat various conditions etc

Personally I'd stay away from the whole lot, my opinion is that your brain needs a rest, drugs are only going to cause more stress.


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## boserer (Jan 22, 2013)

I'd like to add my two cents:

MDMA is scheduled as a class A drug in the UK; it alters the way you think, feel and behave, and essentially acts as a buffer between you, your pain, and your world. I think it can have some positive effects; POSITIVE, if you keep the dose REALLY SMALL.

Why do I say this? First of all, the reason it's scheduled is because it changes behaviour when it's abused. Like all the substances, abusers tend to take it for recreational puposes. You're intending to take it for medicinal purposes, so the same rule applies to MDMA as would to alcohol. You don't go out on a drunken bender if you're using a medicinal amount of alcohol. What you do with alcohol, is take a brandy to sleep when you're sick, because it calms the nervous system. 
Same rules apply. You're not going to get any lasting benefit from taking any substance, whether it's food, medicine, alcohol or drugs, just once. You'd need to apply that medicine over a long period of time, and for certain reasons.

It's also worth noting that MDMA never made it as a pharmaceutical drug due to a legal technicality, ie. that the patent could never be resolved.

My personal opinion of the drug is that it's a blessing, but like most blessings, it is mixed. YOU HAVE to be responsible if you're going to use MDMA, and although it's rarely if ever going to induce a panic attack, it should be treated with respect.

My belief is that it could help lead you towards an emotional breakthrough. My early experience with MDMA was that it was the polar opposite to LSD and more or less 'cured' me of my teenage LSD induced psychosis; allowing me to 'repersonalize' and connect with my own emotions and others, however, on reflection I believe firmly that no drug in itself can help you repersonalize. Life is painful, and creating good relationships with people is the only way to really come to terms with that pain.

From this perspective; be careful not to indulge your own emotions too much by using MDMA, it's a like getting high on your own supply. Building up love and trust is the best way to create stores of serotonin. Taking MDMA releases it - that's all. You're not getting high on the MDMA, you're getting high on chemicals you naturally manufacture, so be careful, and take it in small doses.


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