# (IMPORTANT!) DP/DR treatment with phenazepam



## Hiwhy (Feb 9, 2012)

Hello to everybody!

I would like to post a translated part from scientific article by russian prof. Yuri Nuller. It is about DP/DR treatment using phenazepam
You can find full article (unfortunately in Russian only) here.
The method described below greatly improved my condition and I think I cured for now (while antidepressants, psychoterapeutists were not able to help me).

If you would like to know more about "Diazepam test", or some other from this part of article, you should try to translate the original article, or order the translation.
But this part of article contains all information for therapy.
So if you sure that you have DP/DR, you can start a therapy, described below. The successs of therapy is depends *on how long* you had DP/DR before you started the therapy.
As I know in most european countries and in USA, phenazepam is not considered as narcotic or prescribed medication, you can just order it online on some sites (google it!).
But be careful with dosage.
Effective dosage is different for everyone. For me it was quite big - 20 mg/daily. But for someone it could be 2 mg/daily, you understand what I mean.
You will need *exactly* phenazepam, other benzodiazepines has no such good effect on threating DP/DR, or do not have it at all.
And disclaimer: if you will decide to try this therapy - you are doing it *at your own risk*.
One note:Don not ever mix phenazepam (or any othe benxodiazepines) with alcohol! It could be very dangerous.
However, what I can add, the theuraputic index of phenazepam is big enough, according to information that I found on many sites.
This therapy is successfully used now in Russia.
Here you can find a link to a Saint-Petersburg's cathedra of psyhiatry and narcology, so you can reach them and ask a question, but I not sure about their English knowledge.
Unfortunately prof. Nuller died at 2003. His work and research was continued by prof. Vladimir Tochilov from the same cathedra.

Please distribute this unic info at all DP/DR-related resources and/or share with people who have thie problem. It can really help.

So, here is the text:

*Depersonalization therapy.* Depersonalization is characterized by high therapeutic resistance: in overwhelming majority of cases treatment with antidepressants and neuroleptics (antipsychotics) renders no effect. If quite massive depersonalization appears against the background of other psychic illness - depression or schizophrenia, the therapy usually prescribed at these disturbances also appears ineffective. Only after depersonalization reduction these diseases yield to treatment with traditional agents. Appearing from time to time individual reports about successful application of some antidepressants and neuroleptics further were not confirmed. Part of these cases may be explained by the fact that depersonalization, which appeared within some or other psychic disturbance did not play dominant role in syndrome structure, and underlying disease therapy led to reduction of syndrome depersonalization component. However, such observations were few, and applied psychotropic preparations had significant anxiolytic effect: Insidon or Larivon from antidepressants group, and Clozapine (Azaleptin), antipsychotic preparation with powerful anxiolytic and sedative effect.
Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) is not effective in depersonalization treatment, and in such patient it more often than in endogenous depression patients leads to side effects, at first place to memory disturbances. This is obviously caused by the fact that depersonalization patients often present with organic brain pathology.
Various psychotherapeutic methods also appear inefficient.
Until present the only effective depersonalization treatment is benzodiazepine tranquilizers. Such therapy is usually started with diazepine test, and its positive result, on the one hand, indicates good prognosis, and on the other hand is signal for treatment start.
From benzodiazepine group preparations Phenazepam and Diazepam are used. Phenazepam is used in high (4 - 8 mg) and very high in specific cases up to 20 mg daily doses (max. daily dosage that was used - 36 mg.). Diazepam is applied intravenously as 30 - 40 mg a day. Such high doses are caused by the fact that depersonalization patients are resistant not only to benzodiazepines therapeutic action, but also to their side effects. Thus one patient with severe depersonalization tolerated without side effects (muscles relaxation, somnolence) Diazepam in the dose 75 mg intravenous, and other patients did not demonstrate side effects during intake of Phenazepam 15 - 10 mg per os. Interesting to note that after depersonalization reduction the preparation side effects present themselves at the same or lower preparation doses.

*Therapy method.* As stated above, the most optimal is to start treatment with diazepam test on the same, or start therapy the next day. Phenazepam starting dose is 3-4 mg taken 2 or 3 times daily.) In case depersonalization is not reduced completely or there is no abrupt and significant improvement, the dose is elevated by 1-2 mg daily every 2-3 days until depersonalization symptoms would not completely disappear, or decrease considerably (by 75-80% by depersonalization scale). Therapeutic doses may be as high as 5-10 mg daily, and in certain cases even higher. After the complete therapeutic effect is achieved the same preparation dose should be maintained minimum 7 days, and then it should be gradually reduced by 1-2 mg every 3-4 days. In case of even insignificant worsening the dose should be escalated to the previous level, or more, and only after depersonalization manifestations disappear again, and patient condition remains stable for 7-10 days Phenazepam dose may be cautiously decreased again - by 1 mg every 4 days. If against the background of depersonalization symptoms absence the patient would present with sleep disturbances and/or anxiety, tranquilizers intake should not be stopped. In sleep disturbances Phenazepam may be substituted by Nitrazepam 5-10 mg at bedtime.
In cases of acute depersonalization, which appeared relatively recently (several weeks or 2-3 months), accompanied by anxiety and mental anguish feeling, positive effect of Phenazepam therapy was noted in approximately 75% of patients; at that depersonalization symptoms completely disappeared in 40% of cases. In prolonged months-long and long-term depersonalization conditions Phenazepam therapy was less effective: positive effect was achieved only in 40% of patients, and complete depersonalization reduction was noted only in individual cases.
Frequent argument against prolonged use of high doses of benzodiazepine tranquilizers is threat of drug dependence formation. However in spite of months-long application of high Phenazepam doses depersonalization patient did not demonstrate narcotic dependence. Some patients feared preparation abolition afraid of depersonalization relapse, but in case of preparation abolition there was no abstinence.
Besides Phenazepam positive therapeutic effect in depersonalization syndrome provides benzodiazepine preparation Lorazepam (Temesta). Diazepam (Valium, Seduxen, Sibazone), is less suitable for depersonalization course treatment: its main advantage - rapid effect in intravenous administration can not be used for long time, because the preparation solution in case of frequent injections may induce veins obliteration. Additionally, due to more strong Diazepam relaxing effect comparing to Phenazepam doses of equally efficiency there is considerable danger of drug dependence development.


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2012)

deezington said:


> lmao are you serious phenazepam is fucking sketchy its a research chemical, meaning it hasnt even really been studied for human usage. Also good luck trying to eyeball 2mg , need a mg scale or else you might end up naked in someones backyard.


*Again, why beat up on someone who has a study on DP/DR. It also illustrates that there is research into DP/DR in countries other than the US and the UK. Research is ongoing worldwide and I have seen a number of articles on DP research in Russia. Also you didn't read the article. This is a trail on human beings. [ I also saw this was available for purchase (unfortunately as it is not controlled) on the internet.*
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"Phenazepam is a benzodiazepine drug, which was developed in the Soviet Union and now produced in Russia and some CIS countries. Phenazepam is used in the treatment of neurological disorders such as epilepsy, alcohol withdrawal syndrome and insomnia. It can be used as a premedication before surgery as it augments the effects of anesthetics and reduces anxiety.

An average phenazepam dosage is 0.5 mg 2-3 times daily. The maximum daily dosage must not exceed 10 mg. 1 mg of phenazepam is thought to be equivalent to 10 mg of diazepam. [Valium]
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Yes it seems to be available in Russia, but is a controlled substance. The point is it is yet another benzodiazepine like Valium, Xanax, Ativan, etc. I am on 6mg/day of Klonopin/clonazepam and have been for years -- never abused it, and it was the first med that EVER touched the DP/DR.

I take Lamictal as well, 200mg/day.

What I find interesting is how much these individuals with DP/DR could tolerate. I am the same way. A friend tried 1mg of my Klonopin once to see how it would work. He fell asleep in about 10 minutes.

I have also had surgical procedures when I was given IV sedation and it wasn't enough. I could recall everything that happened during the procedure to the doctor's amazement. It was also quite uncomfortable.

As the OP noted, this dose would need to be taken with extreme caution.

Of course, I would wish to see the study duplicated numerous times in the US and UK and other countries. It seems to have been conducted in other countries that split from the former Soviet Union.

*Research is research. I have had this for the bulk of 53 years. I have a degree of "quality of life" -- but nothing near my true potential, education, career training, etc. More power to research worldwide into DP/DR. Something might actually help me before I die. It would be nice if it happened tomorrow. Meantime I do everything else to do the best I can.
*


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2012)

It is also interesting to note ... and this keeps coming up repeatedly ... that benzos (Klonopin in particular was market in 1975 for this very purpose) can be used to control seizures, either in the short or long run.
Lamictal, Neurontin, Depakote, etc. are also anticonvulsants that some here have responded to. Not saying we have epilepsy, but it is interesting that many people I know have found relief or some relief with Klonopin SPECIFICALLY, and I know one 62 year old friend who found great success with Neurontin. *The DP is GONE. He is still a very anxious person.*


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## Hiwhy (Feb 9, 2012)

deezington said:


> lmao are you serious phenazepam is fucking sketchy its a research chemical, meaning it hasnt even really been studied for human usage. Also good luck trying to eyeball 2mg , need a mg scale or else you might end up naked in someones backyard.


Phenazepam is used for over 30 years in USSR and in ex-USSR countries. It can be prescribed here by doctor.
Here is the picture of phenazepam pack that coul be bought in regular farmacy here:








It now well known outside ex-USSR zone because it was developed in USSR in 70s in the Cold War period.

According to many psichiatrists that I talked with, phenazepam much less toxic and addictive than well-known diazepam for example.

For me phenazepam made great job - he returned me into my normal state, when antidepressants, antypsychotics, psychoterapy - all that was not able to help me.
If you wish you can translate whole article and read about some statistics and more interesting things. More information on this subject can be found here also (in Russian too). But you can always order a translation.
Now I do not have much money to translate whole articles. So I translated most important part and posted it here. You're free to translate whole articles and reat it.

I gave you a key. If you wish - you can try it. If you don't - you don't. It's your life. It's up to you.


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## Hiwhy (Feb 9, 2012)

I would also like to mention, that phenazepam is a little bit different from other benzos. I dont know the mechanism, but it can remove DP/DR completely, not for some period only.
Some scientifists put this drug between anxiolitics and antypsichotics. Maybe this is an answer.
But as it written in the article, sometimes very high dosage is needed for a successful treatment.


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## shellofme (Feb 1, 2012)

I would also like to add that benzos are NOT meant to be used long term (longer than 1 month) in any circumstance because they downregulate your GABBA receptors every time you take them along with building a tolerance and dependence on them. In the long run they cause more problems than the original one they are used for. Extended periods of benzo use damage the brain and can take a VERY long time to repair. I know first hand about this effect as I GOT DP FROM A BENZO that I discontinued too quickly!


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## Hiwhy (Feb 9, 2012)

shellofme said:


> I would also like to add that benzos are NOT meant to be used long term (longer than 1 month) in any circumstance because they downregulate your GABBA receptors every time you take them along with building a tolerance and dependence on them. In the long run they cause more problems than the original one they are used for. Extended periods of benzo use damage the brain and can take a VERY long time to repair. I know first hand about this effect as I GOT DP FROM A BENZO that I discontinued too quickly!


It depends on particular benzodiazepine type.
Main thing - you should not cancel benzos rapidly, you need to take lower and lower dosage, as it described in the article that I posted, for example.

I was more than 4 month on phenazepam (due to slow descent from high dosage). AFter that I totally inspected my brain and whole health. It is OK


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## kate_edwin (Aug 9, 2009)

That is *not* something anyone should just buy over the Internet and dose themselves. That needs to be prescribed by a dr, even if you buy it online. Benzos should not be used kong term unless you've got seizures. Nowhere in there did it say how many patients were in the trial, 45, even 75% of a dozen people may mean absolutely nothing. If it's a benzo it's probably illegal, in the us, might want to look into that before trying to find it. But no one should ever try that kind of thing without *close* dr supervision. And that's just one study


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## Hiwhy (Feb 9, 2012)

kate_edwin said:


> That is *not* something anyone should just buy over the Internet and dose themselves. That needs to be prescribed by a dr, even if you buy it online. Benzos should not be used kong term unless you've got seizures. Nowhere in there did it say how many patients were in the trial, 45, even 75% of a dozen people may mean absolutely nothing. If it's a benzo it's probably illegal, in the us, might want to look into that before trying to find it. But no one should ever try that kind of thing without *close* dr supervision. And that's just one study


Phenzepam seems to be legal in US.

I live in Ukraine.
It is very hard to get a prescription for any benzo here (not like in Russia) due to stupid laws. But I found the way to get phenazepam.
I performed phenazepam therapy by myself, without any doctor. And I cured. And everything around me changed from first pill. But to get the full effect I had to go to much higher dosage.
In a few months after that I talked to one of our most reputable psyhiatrist and told him about my story.
He said that I did right.
That's it. About me.

I wrote all that I could.
As I told it is your life and it is up to you.

Now I unsubscribe from this topic.
Hope this topic will help someone. If not - I did a try at least.

Bye!


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## kate_edwin (Aug 9, 2009)

thts great that it works for you, but thats a really really bad idea.


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## shellofme (Feb 1, 2012)

Hiwhy said:


> It depends on particular benzodiazepine type.
> Main thing - you should not cancel benzos rapidly, you need to take lower and lower dosage, as it described in the article that I posted, for example.
> 
> I was more than 4 month on phenazepam (due to slow descent from high dosage). AFter that I totally inspected my brain and whole health. It is OK


That's bullshit as all benzos work the same way on the same recpetors, please go back to school!


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2012)

1. I'm not a chemist, but *within any class of drugs there will be slightly different molecular configurations.*
2. As for myself, Klonopin, because it has a long half-life in the body is a "maintenance dose." I take 2mg, 3 times a day. I never take more, and never take less. It's what works the best for me to help the bad DP/DR. I have a "bearable" (no such thing really) level.

I have taken Xanax, Valium, and Ativan in the past. Valium -- I could take a very high dose and it wouldn't even make me calm. Like sugar pills. I don't have major panic as I did when I was younger, but I have a stash of 20 1mg Xanax now that lasts ONE YEAR. For "dire emergencies." I hate how it feels. It knocks me hard ... unlike the Klonopin ... makes me sleepy, groggy, and actually sometimes makes the DP/DR worse, but it lessens anxiety in panic.

*This particular drug Phenazepam is NOT marketed in the U.S. * I believe it is only prescribed/used in Russia and other former Soviet countries. But it has been used there for years.

*Finally, I do not advocate buying any drug off of the internet, I don't care what it is*. If it isn't prescribed by a doctor and sent to me from a pharmacy I'd be afraid to take it. However, everyone is entitled to take risks. I'm 53 and figure, if I'm 65 and still DP (and still here) I may very well try a number of things, or by then, there will be options.

There are a variety of differences in EVERY class of drug. Prozac is not exactly like Zoloft is not exactly like Celexa, etc., etc., etc. There are different heart medications. Different cholesterol drugs work in similar ways but are not exactly the same. Same with anticonvulsants. Name a drug class -- they all have variations. I suppose however you could say insulin is insulin, etc.

Going to school means having a doctorate in Chemistry. For some good background on ALL meds go to http://www.rxlist.com It is a US site. You will notice this drug does NOT come up. It is neither prescribed nor used in the US. There could be any number of reasons for this including marketing, or an agreement with Russia.


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## rob (Aug 22, 2004)

Has anyone tried thes stuff yet and, if so, what was the outcome?


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## Hiwhy (Feb 9, 2012)

I called prof. Vladimir Tochilov (favorite student of Yuri Nuller) recently. His advice on decreasing dosage after therapy to prevent recidive:

When you will start to decrease dosage (if your dosage was big - start it when you have ~10-12mg daily dosage of phenazepam), start taking cymbalta or Venlafaxine - start with 75 mg per day and than quickly to 150 mg per day - as prof. Vladimir Tochilov (favorite student of Yuri Nuller) adviced me on phone call. This will prevent possible recidive of DP.
Then continue to slowly decrease phenazepam dosage, and then - go out from Cymbalta or Venlafaxine.

Mr. Tochilov told me that only those two antidepressants will be useful here.

And rememeber - you are doing it at your own risk. I *really believe* that it will help you as it helped me, but you are doing *at you own risk*.

And one more - don't ever cancel phenazepam (like any other benzo) *abruptly* - this may worsten your condition and lead to many very0very bad thigs (pls. read about benzodiazepines widthdrawal syndrome in wikipedia).
And one more more! Do not ever mix it with *alcohol*!


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