# Ketamine



## Dreamland (Jun 1, 2005)

Have any of you all looked up Ketamine on line and its effects on the mind and perception? Some of the effects sound similar to depersonalization/derealization to a degree so perhaps something is affecting the same neurotransmitters in DP sufferers.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2007)

Dreamland said:


> Have any of you all looked up Ketamine on line and its effects on the mind and perception? Some of the effects sound similar to depersonalization/derealization to a degree so perhaps something is affecting the same neurotransmitters in DP sufferers.


Thanks for sharing, this is the time of info i'm interested in =)


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2007)

Ketamine is a dissociative. Dissociation = dp

alot of drugs and act as a dissociative. mushrooms for example, altough mushrooms are classified as a psychedelic, they can overwhelm the sense of self and it can lead to dissociation state.


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## FloatingRoberto (Dec 6, 2006)

Add PCP to the list, also an dissociative narcotic.

A fun fact you can try is pinch yourself when dp and when you're ok and feel the difference


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

Ketamine is a nmda antagonist like pcp like dxm like nitrous and the big bad boy mk-801. But you wont find the last one outside of a research lab.

Mk-801 is the most pure nmda receptor antagonist and that's why it's unpleasant i think. There is no dopamine agonism or anything to make it pleasant. All there other dissociatives act on other receptor's. Here's an experience report of mk-801 or dizocilpine http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=10737

The nmda receptor is what is responsible for the dissociative effect's of these drug's and i would have to say that dreamland's theory is not a bad one at all. If there was ever a group of drug's similar to dp/dr the dissociatives would be it. Except for the fact that most people find dissociatives pleasant. I have never tried ketamine (i will when i get the chance) but i love nitrous and kind of like dxm. Dxm is very hit or miss.

True dp/dr could be a result of a dysfunction in the nmda receptor. It's as good a theory as anything else really. Here's a good article on wiki about the nmda receptor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NMDA_receptor . It's complicated stuff and i have a hard time making sense of it. All the other receptor's are easy to understand compared to this bastard.


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## Dreamland (Jun 1, 2005)

What I find interesting about Ketamine experience, aside from the disassociative state of mind, is the fact that some users claim that it distorts their sense of motion in the sense that they can only experience fragments--their conscience can't really keep up or something to that effect. I find that DP also has a motion related dysfunction, since it affects me more when I'm cycling, walking, running, or anything that involves paying attention to a moving background. Movie theaters and dark-enclosed simulated amusement park rides used to do a number on me as well. Whenever you sit still in a static environment DP is not all that bad; it gets bad when you have to process a lot of dynamic visual stimuli....make sense?


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## goo goo (Aug 31, 2006)

Yea makes sense to me Dreamland, as i also have the same problem. I find that its like drunk vision, but less severe.


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## flat (Jun 18, 2006)

So if a drug, like ketamine, didn't cause an impairment to the nmda receptors in our brain (which may be causing our dp)... then what is? And all of the receptors all at once? Constantly? What could be causing it?


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## FloatingRoberto (Dec 6, 2006)

Very very interesting Dreamland. 
So dp is caused by too low activity of the NMDA-receptors, just like ketamine pcp etc... inhibit it's effects.

To get a break of your DP you can thus use a NMDA-agonist, like NMDA or a combination of Glutamate & Glycine.

The latter are the easy ones to come by, Glutamate = flavour enhancer E621 (MSG)/ve tsin
http://kruidenwinkel.net/kruiden-specer ... =2d&page=1

Glycine is just a food supplement you can find on the net.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/s:Nutritional ... pe=Glycine

p.s. Links are for show, not for encouragement to buy, itll make things probably worse.

And some relations between the glutamates and autism like behaviour are suggested by the following site ( saying it's bad ). It's hard to admit, but some properties of DP have common ground with autism. Like problems with talking and connecting with other people for example and the lack of vividness a normal person shows.
Nevertheless there's not much you can do with these substances since it's all guessing.
Maybe nmda causes temporary relief to make things worse afterwards. Ketamine like dissociatives might give you worse DP for a while, but give your neurons a break and chance to regrow (or not? ).

http://www.autismanswer.com/articles/ya ... rsing.html

Behaviour is a safer way to influence m, no worries and structural efforts to start learning and have a good time might just stimulate these systems ( like the GABA for learning ) enough to let them grow while not overstressing them. A psychological recovery therapy as you will.

Just like physiotherapy after for example a stretched ligament. You don't want to start running like a madman, but you do have to exercise carefully.

Anyways, if anyone can correct my assumptions you are soo welcome, but for now it's desperate housewives time!


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## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

I haven't read the whole post, cuz I'm "working", but thought this might be relevant...

Dr. Simeon ran trials with Seromycin a couple of years ago (when I was at Mt. Sinai) the idea being the K connection, similarity in symptoms to dp/dr or whatever...Seromycin is an nmda agonist, opposite of ketamine. none of us guinea pigs at the time felt ANY improvement, but it was as good a guess as any.

IMO, dp/dr is not that close to being on Ketamine. Either way that theory's been tested already.


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## Dreamland (Jun 1, 2005)

Interesting Rula.......I thought that perhaps my theory was indeed a shot in the dark but plausible nonetheless, right? Perhaps Ketamine produces a differnt form of disaccociation in the sense that it calms you down at the same time. For example, I've heard people complain about the drug (Versed) that they administer prior to surgery because it makes you loopy and out-of-it, but my experience was positive duing my outpatient surgey last year; defintely numbing and detached but pleasant at the same time, and I was apprehensive because of my DP past.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

Seromycin is actually used as a antibiotic in treating TB and goddamn it look's nasty. The side effect profile is a horror show. It definatly sound's like the opposite of ketamine. It's a partial nmda agonist and has been tested as a treatment for schizophrenia and has shown mixed result's and high drop out rates.

I dont think it will ever hit the market as a treatment for mental illness. I personally would not touch the stuff with a 10 foot pole by the look of how rough it is. It's a proconvulsant for one thing and can cause increased anxiety and restlessness.

Id have to say some of the strangest drug experiences i ever had in my life happened under the influence of dxm. It was somewhat like the dissociation you get from dp/dr only a million times stronger. Like feeling disconected from different parts of my body and such.

Ive actually used dxm in medium doses for some severe pain i had and it was totally strange. The pain was still there and i could feel it exactly the same as before i took the drug but it didnt hurt one bit. The pain simply did not register as being hurtful.

Thats the only way i can describe it. It's totally different from morphine and other painkillers which actually take the pain away.

Ketamine is used alot in treating neuropathic pain which traditional painkiller's dont work that well against. I guess that's why.

Also dreamland your right about ketamine calming you down. Most people who i know who have taken it have never felt scared during the experience at all. The only ones that did where the ones that ended up putting themselves in the k-hole.

Versed (midazolam) by the way is just another benzodiazepine. It's just a very sedating one that causes alot of memory loss. They use it in minor outpatient surgeries so the patient doesent actually remember the pain afterwards. Well they dont remember it as much atleast and it relaxes them.


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## Dreamland (Jun 1, 2005)

Speaking of TB drugs, did you know that Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors(Nardil,Parnate,Marplan) were initially developed for TB back in the 1950's? They were useless but doctors noticed that a lot of patients began to feel better emotionally, hence their application as a treatment for depression(atypical).


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2007)

oh boy, dxm... my highest dose was 1,250mg. No wonder I have DP. :lol:


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## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

Dreamland said:


> I thought that perhaps my theory was indeed a shot in the dark but plausible nonetheless, right? Perhaps Ketamine produces a differnt form of disaccociation in the sense that it calms you down at the same time.


It's absolutely plausible, that's why Dr. Simeon tested it. 
To me though I feel like well, lots of drugs are dissociative and their effects can be described using the same words and they might *sound* similar to a dp/dr experience...but that doesn't at all mean they're hitting the same part of the brain or the same neurotransmitters. At the time at mt Sinai they also tested a med that acts as the reverse of LSD (Periactin)...a Ketamine high and an LSD high while both dissociative, are not the same. Those researchers never had dp/dr and probably never been on any of these drugs either, not knocking them for trying, just stating a fact. Their guesses are as good as yours Dreamland 

btw Numb, a k-hole is not so bad at all, no panic, no fear...just a very truly comfortably numb (ha!) relaxed, giddy, floaty feeling. Where even though you're completely out of body, feel paralyzed and might even think you're dead, still I don't know a single person who ever freaked, you can't, the k is too calming...but drugs are bad! mmk?

-rula


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## FloatingRoberto (Dec 6, 2006)

Psilocybic said:


> oh boy, dxm... my highest dose was 1,250mg. No wonder I have DP. :lol:


It might be a wild guess, but looking at your name I believe you do paddo's regulary too 

Dang, I wouldnt wanna be a neuron in your brain


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2007)

FloatingRoberto said:


> Psilocybic said:
> 
> 
> > oh boy, dxm... my highest dose was 1,250mg. No wonder I have DP. :lol:
> ...


I pick pounds every summer...

Well, I thought of it like this, if my neurons were already born crazy, might as well, eh?


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2007)

rula said:


> Dreamland said:
> 
> 
> > I thought that perhaps my theory was indeed a shot in the dark but plausible nonetheless, right? Perhaps Ketamine produces a differnt form of disaccociation in the sense that it calms you down at the same time.
> ...


People get freaked out because your imagination in the k-hole is 10x your normal sober living imagination. Because your brain shuts off the outside world, your imagination skyrockets.

People have talked to god in k-holes, alien abductions, ect ect... lots of vivid hallucinations. That's why it scares people I believe.


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## Dreamland (Jun 1, 2005)

I read that DXM is found in antitussant meds. How do you obtain a purified form of DXM and how is it ingested?


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2007)

Dreamland said:


> I read that DXM is found in antitussant meds. How do you obtain a purified form of DXM and how is it ingested?


You should really ask yourself why first.

There's two ways, but I'm not going to tell you how.

Cough syrup extraction.

Chemical suppliers, or research chemicals.

Gonna have to do the work yourself it you really want to. And remember ask yourself why. :?:


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## Dreamland (Jun 1, 2005)

I would never take that stuff.....ever! I hardly drink beer. I was just reading that it's found in cough medicine and that some people drink the cough medicine to get high....now that's messed up.


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## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

Dreamland said:


> I would never take that stuff.....ever! I hardly drink beer. I was just reading that it's found in cough medicine and that some people drink the cough medicine to get high....now that's messed up.


yep...I was down south recently and I paid $300 big ones (for someone else) for a bottle of the famous cough syrup with codeine that everyone down there gets high on...it was fun watching other ppl trip on it, but I thought it was "the poor man's high" AND DJ Screw died from this stuff!!


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

rula said:


> yep...I was down south recently and I paid $300 big ones (for someone else) for a bottle of the famous cough syrup with codeine that everyone down there gets high on...it was fun watching other ppl trip on it, but I thought it was "the poor man's high" AND DJ Screw died from this stuff!!


 $300 buck's for codeine syrup what a goddamn rip off. For one thing codeine is pretty goddamn weak and it would be alot easier to take the stuff in pill's. You would be alot better off just getting the codeine phosphate pills with nothing else in them.

For $300 you could get a shitload of oxycontin, morphine or even a few gram's of heroin. No way would i pay $300 for codeine.

Oh and dreamland about the dxm all you have to do is get a product with nothing else in it besides dxm. Robotussin gell cap's are a good choice.


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## Dreamland (Jun 1, 2005)

Three hundred dollars...???????? GOOD LAWD...thas alotta money!!!!!! How about I give you fitty cent for gelcaps!!!..Lawd have mercy...


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

Dreamland said:


> Three hundred dollars...???????? GOOD LAWD...thas alotta money!!!!!! How about I give you fitty cent for gelcaps!!!..Lawd have mercy...


 Lol ya it's about the same thing. Codeine is one of the weakest opiates around no way is it worth $300. I like codeine but it takes alot to get high on the stuff if you have a tolerance and it has more side effect's then most other opiates.

And by the way trip is the wrong word to use for codeine. It's just an opiate and doesent make you hallucinate or anything. It just relaxes you and put's you in a kind of blissfull mood.


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## Dreamland (Jun 1, 2005)

An opiate is more of an analgesic as opposed to a psychotropic med.


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## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

LOL...well it's DXM with codeine, mixed with your favorite liquor, and u do definitely hallucinate...that bottle goes for less than $50 w/a script. totally nuts...but ya know the whole thing down south (Houston) about drinking cough syrup and making "Chopped 'n Screwed" music? well they wanted to feel what it's like to drink the same stuff the big rappers down there were drinking, errr, even at $60 a drink!

oh and I'M the one with mental problems? :lol:


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

Mixing dxm with codeine is stupid in high doses. It's great to get rid of a cough but that's about it.

For one thing dxm inhibit's the enzyme that metabolizes codeine into morphine when taken in above medical doses thus blocking most of the effect's of the codeine.

Codeine in doses of about 100mg's or so will also block the same enzyme that metabolizes dextromethorphan into dextrophan. Dextrophan is what is responsible for dextromethorphan's dissociative effect's. Without this you will just get the effect's of the sigma receptor which is by all account's a horror trip.

Codeine and dxm also produce histamine release so combining the 2 will most likely make you want to scratch your skin off.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2007)

comfortably numb said:


> Mixing dxm with codeine is stupid in high doses. It's great to get rid of a cough but that's about it.
> 
> For one thing dxm inhibit's the enzyme that metabolizes codeine into morphine when taken in above medical doses thus blocking most of the effect's of the codeine.
> 
> ...


Are you sure about this information? I've read up on dxm and opiates and dxm is supposed to "reverse" opiate tolerance and make opiates more potent. Mabye that's just with codeine though.

And I might be defuncted but I've heard of robo itch but never experienced it before.


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## Dreamland (Jun 1, 2005)

I suggest Rula, Comfortably Numb, and Psilosybic engage in an "Ultimate DXM Codeine Challenge" to be conducted in the "octagon" like in a Ultimate Fight setting. I will be in charge of the pay-per-view arrangements........


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

> [quote="Psilocybic Are you sure about this information? I've read up on dxm and opiates and dxm is supposed to "reverse" opiate tolerance and make opiates more potent. Mabye that's just with codeine though.
> 
> And I might be defuncted but I've heard of robo itch but never experienced it before.


Ya im sure. Dextromethorphan inhibit's the cyp2d6 enzyme that metabolizes codeine into morphine. Codeine also inhibit's the cyp2d6 enzyme that metabolizes dextromethorphan into dextrophan.

Dxm does reverse opiate tolerance all nmda antagonist's do i think. But it's actually it's metabolite dextrophan (dxo for short) that is responsible for the nmda antagonism. If you inhibit that enzyme you wont get much if any nmda antagonism or the dissociative effect's.

So if you take a cyp2d6 inhibitor like codeine before you take the dxm you wont reverse or prevent opiate tolerance.

Alot of drug's inhibit the cyp2d6 enzyme actually. All the ssri's are strong inhibitor's of that enzyme as well as wellbutrin. Wellbutrin doesent actually use the cyp2d6 enzyme it just inhibit's it.

I havent really gotten the robo itch either. But ive never taken dxm in high doses. Ive only taken moderate doses of the stuff.


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## davinizi (Mar 9, 2016)

I came across the use of ketamine injections in psychiatry (Ketamine Treatment Centers is proudly combatting major depression, bipolar depression, postpartum depression, PTSD, OCD, anxiety, fibromyalgia, CRPS, and chronic pain one patient at a time! ), so I searched this forum to see if it was already known here. Apparently it has been mentioned already 10 years ago. :mrgreen:

Since I see something interesting mentioned in this thread about NMDA receptor that can be related to dissociation, I started googling on that term and found some more interesting stuff on *How to Reverse the Negative Side Effects of Marijuana which is also interesting knowing the fact that many people on here have marijuana induced DP, so this may be very well related to the effect it has on the *NMDA receptor:

Cannabinoid Receptor Antagonists are still not yet on the public market but are being trialed for obesity as CB1 receptors use the naturally produced Cannabinoid Anandamide for hunger. Natural antagonists are still available.

Other alternatives look at NMDA receptor antagonism as an effective method to reduce the rate of tolerance. This method is one of the most successful for benzo and meth withdrawl. NMDA receptors greatly improve the brain to form memories (long term memory similar to learning when young).

And here an interesting study on *Growing evidence for glutamate abnormalities in schizophrenia support the development of novel antipsychotic agents targeting this system.* Early studies investigating modulation of the glutamate system using glycine, D-serine and sarcosine in patients with schizophrenia have demonstrated significant effects, particularly on negative symptoms, conventionally thought to be refractory to antipsychotic drug treatment.

...

There has been much *speculation about how glutamate and dopamine may be related in schizophrenia,* and whether glutamate or dopamine might be more 'upstream' in the illness. Olney and Farber hypothesized that glutamatergic changes might be related to a primary dopaminergic abnormality [Olney and Farber, 1995], whereas others have suggested that abnormalities in glutamate transmission or NMDA receptor function could drive changes in dopamine [Stone et al. 2007; Coyle, 2006; Harrison and Weinberger, 2005]. A plausible animal model of schizophrenia suggests that increased glutamate efferents from hippocampus may drive increased dopamine neuron responsivity [Lodge and Grace, 2006] (Figure 5). In support of this hypothesis, lower levels of hippocampal glutamate (p*otentially driving increased hippocampal outputs through reduced stimulation of GABA interneurons)* are associated with increased striatal [18F]DOPA uptake (a marker of presynaptic dopamine function) in individuals with an ARMS but not in healthy volunteers [Stone et al. 2010a]. The fact that this relationship was found in ARMS subjects and not in controls suggests GABA intereneurons in individuals with an ARMS may be more sensitive to presynaptic glutamate levels, possibly due to lower hippocampal NMDA receptor expression [Pilowsky et al. 2006] (Figure 5). Drugs targeting glutamatergic transmission might help to normalize these deficits and have additional downstream effects on normalising dopamine neuron activity.

...

Several studies have investigated the effect of *drugs which increase NMDA receptor function *via the NMDA receptor glycine site: either increasing synaptic glycine levels by inhibiting type 1 glycine transporters (GlyT1) and preventing reuptake of synaptic glycine (sarcosine), or by acting as agonists at the glycineB modulatory site (*glycine and D-serine*).

...

*Lamotrigine, a drug which inhibits glutamate release,* has been investigated as an adjunctive treatment in schizophrenia. Lamotrigine has been shown to reverse positive, negative and cognitive symptoms associated with *ketamine* administration in healthy volunteers [Hosak and Libiger, 2002], and to reverse ketamine-associated changes in brain function measured using fMRI [Deakin et al. 2008]. A recent meta-analysis suggests that lamotrigine, in contrast to drugs acting through glycine enhancement of NMDA receptor function, is effective as an add-on medication for patients who are only partially responsive to clozapine, although effects were relatively modest [Tiihonen et al. 2009].

...

*Cannabidiol (CBD), a constituent of cannabis, may also have a modulatory effect on glutamatergic transmission*, as it has been shown to inhibit ketamine and MK-801-induced effects in animal models [Long et al. 2006; Moreira and Guimaraes, 2005], and in humans [Hallak et al. 2011]. *Cannabis users with detectable levels of both CBD and delta-9 tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) in hair samples reported a lower incidence of schizophrenia-like symptoms than those in whom THC alone was detected *[Morgan and Curran, 2008]. Furthermore, acute intoxication with cannabis containing low CBD led to impairments in recall, whereas high CBD cannabis did not induce any cognitive deficits [Morgan et al. 2010]. *CBD has been shown to have the opposite effect to THC* on neural activation measured using fMRI during an emotional processing task and a verbal memory task [Bhattacharyya et al. 2010; Fusar-Poli et al. 2009], and pretreatment with CBD significantly attenuates the psychotogenic effects of THC [Bhattacharyya et al. 2010; Karniol et al. 1974]. Preliminary work suggests that CBD is effective as an antipsychotic in patients with schizophrenia [Zuardi et al. 2006], although it had no additional beneficial effect in a small open-label study of clozapine-resistant patients [Zuardi et al. 2006].

The mechanism of action of CBD has not yet been elucidated completely. It has been demonstrated that CBD antagonizes the inhibitory effect of endocannabinoids and THC on GABA and glutamate transmission, mediated via CB1 receptors [Godino Mdel et al. 2007; Neu et al. 2007]. Given the *hypothesized mechanism of ketamine action on GABA and glutamate systems, it is possible that the enhancement of GABA-A function is its primary mode of action in reducing ketamine-induced effects* (Figure 6). However, a CB1 antagonist was not found to be effective in patients with schizophrenia [Meltzer et al. 2004], and there is growing evidence that some of the beneficial effects of CBD, like minocycline, may be mediated via inhibition of p38 MAP kinase [El-Remessy et al. 2008; Esposito et al. 2006].

...

Conclusions

Novel drugs targeting glutamate transmission have shown considerable promise in the treatment of schizophrenia. Current evidence supports their use as adjunctive agents in individuals who fail to respond to conventional dopaminergic antipsychotic drugs, and preliminary data suggests that they are also efficacious as monotherapy. There are currently a large number of glutamatergic compounds in development, with a great deal of excitement about their potential as novel therapeutic agents in schizophrenia. It seems likely that the next wave of drugs for schizophrenia will target this system.


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

register said:


> oh boy, dxm... my highest dose was 1,250mg. No wonder I have DP. :lol:


I've done more and It didn't cause my DP but it is well known to! I also read people who have came back from DXM DP from doing it daily for years. This in no way meant to say keep taking that. Road to nowhere, I'll not even scare you, just know that people have came out the other side. I even read a guy who has Psychosis mixing it and Salvia, which I can imagine would be a mind bending experience, took him 4 years but he bounced back, he did however do a lot to get back


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