# My worst trait.........



## Guest (Feb 18, 2005)

....was in the subject line of an e-mail I recently received. I won't read the e-message (for reasons detailed below), but it got me to thinking about my own worst traits. 
I figure everyone has pretty much the same personality traits - there really is nothing new under the sun. It's the degree to and manner in which those traits are expressed that make us the unique individuals we are. As far as what is a "worst trait", well, that's more in the eye of the beholder than anything else. Everyone is different, and everything is relative. For instance, I have typically been attracted to bitchy women. What one person may see as a flaw, another may see as a strength.

So, with those disclaimers, here are some "worst flaws" of mine, as seen through my eyes.......

I tend to dress like I did when in high school. Always have. Jeans, t-shirt and a pair of white Nikes are, to me, good enough for pretty much any occasion. People around me know when summer has arrived, as I reduce that wardrobe to simply jeans and tennies. Actually this is a "worst trait" mostly to my wife. She has recently purchased me my first suit, foolishly believing I will ever actually wear it.

I am always, always late for work. Sometimes a few minutes sometimes a couple of hours. My reasons for my tardiness vary from sleeping in too late to simply being bored. I don't even know how I manage to stay employed.

I tend to think I am much smarter than I actually am. I don't recall being this way before the DP hit, but I am most definitely this way now. Again, there is nothing new under the sun here. There's enough narcissim in this group to choke an entire herd of elephants. I may take things to the extreme in this area, however. Also, I tend to expect others to be pretty much perfect. Doesn't take a Board certified shrink to see all I'm doing is transferring my own hopelesssly high expectations of myself onto others.

I have the gift of being able to rationalize most any type of behaviour. Again, everyone does this to some degree, I just think I do it a bit more than average. This particular trait tends to land me in trouble from time to time.

I tend to............."play" with people. Although that word makes it sound worse than it is (he rationalizes). This is something I've always done, with a marked increase since becoming DP. Each of you, in your own way, will attempt to "sound out" another person. Try to find out what they've got, both in positive and negative terms. You try to get to know them, in part because you don't like to be surprised later. This behaviour is most evident in romantic situations, but applies to a lesser degree in most any interaction between human critters. 
I do the same, but again, maybe a bit (alot) more than average. And to be completely honest, I make a game out of it sometimes. And sometimes it is a serious game. Since becoming DP, I do not like being surprised. By anything - or anybody. When first meeting someone, I begin the process of determining if they are able to hurt me, help me, etc. I have a real need to find out their strengths, and weaknesses. All so I am not surprised later. All part of the pathetic control issues I have. 
And it is typically very easy to do. Just apply the right amount of pressure in the right area........and you can pretty much find out what a person is made of. The approach I use is different for different people, and it can be interesting. My problem, or my "worst trait" I guess, is that I tend to take things too far in this area. I seem to enjoy exposing people. I play them, as if they are a puppet and I the marionette. Pulling strings pushing buttons to get them to do what I want them to do. Sometimes I do this for a specific purpose - I have been playing one particular person for over seven years now, because knowing her caused me pain. I am trying to get back at her, simple as that. Pulling strings, pushing buttons. Getting her to react the way I want her to react. 
I am disgusted with myself for it. 
Recently I have done something similar here. Though disappointed with how easy it was - I caused another member to react EXACTLY the way I wanted them to react. Pulled the strings just right. Cause I'm quite good at it. 
A pitiful little triumph for sc........

Some people are harder to play than others, though it doesn't seem to be a matter of relative intelligence. More..........how able they are to hide their flaws. Or how willing maybe. The person I just referenced - clearly above average intelligence, yet gave up their secrets quite easily.

Another "worst trait" - when first meeting someone I start from the position that I can trust them completely, then start subtracting from that. Once I start exposing their flaws, THEIR worst traits, that level of trust diminishes. And I can never seem to get it back up to perfect trust again. Basically put - you are my friend until you screw me. Once that happens, we can no longer be friends. Whether or not it was me who caused you to show your hand doesn't matter.

I do not enjoy conflict. And, in fact, will go to great lengths to avoid it. I am afraid of finality. Ending of relationships, etc. The "My Worst Trait" e-mail will go unread. It comes from a person who I have tried my best not to play. A person with definite flaws, someone I could have been having a blast with as far as pulling strings, just for the challenge if nothing else.........but also someone whom I have needed to hold above that. Needed to think they are above "worst traits." 
Everybody needs a hero I guess.

As usual I am wandering. DP you know. I think this post belongs in the main discussion forum, however. While I honestly believe much of the reason I am screwed up came from dying in a car accident, at least some of the reason I am in this mess is because of personality traits, and how those have played into things. 
It think I'll stop here. If it goes anywhere I may chime back in. Time to go back to work now though............


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

And so the book opens a little more. In revealing the good, bad and ugly you lay yourself open for a barrage of thoughts and opinions. I consider this a strong, brave move.

Is this in some way cathartic for you ?

Does being so poignant change anything for you ?

Why the desire to expose what you perceive ( and some really are :wink: ) as your "worst flaws ?

You're wandering and I'm wondering...DP/DR you know.

Very interesting, sc.
terri*


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

I share a few of those too, I guess.

I definitely have to "know" a bit before I'll start to properly "get to know" them. I have to know how they "work" before I'll be willing to talk to them confidently.

I probably talk about myself too much - this is especially bad since I have an incredibly boring life at the moment.

I tend to paradoxically think I'm somehow "better" than a lot of people while maintaning that they're a lot "better" than me. I guess it depends on what area I'm looking at. For example, I might consider someone "better" in certain respects, yet at the back of my mind feel I have the kind of profound understanding that makes me realise the traditional definitions of "better" are meaningless - and hence belive that therefore, I am the best! lol 

I find myself criticising people for traits that I actually dislike in myself. And I find myself trying to rationalize criticism by saying "such and such does this or that", when in reality I'm just probably envious of them.

I can "play to a crowd" a lot. I don't really abide by a set of core principles and will never really argue my case; I'l rather "go along" with stuff and accept the practices of whoever I'm with almost unquestionably.

I like to think I can "work out" people, although I wouldn't say I "play with them" as such.

I rarely "let my hair down" - I'm probably way too reserved. And I'm far too cautious for my own good.

And I'm dead boring. 8)

I guess that's the only "bad" traits I have that come to mind; although there's doubtless many more. I don't know if these lend themselves to DP or not.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2005)

I don't consider this thread particularly brave terri (and your *), nor do I feel I am leaving myself open for any kind of barrage. I assume most people reading this will either see something of themselves in it, or not be interested enough to respond. 
If I had any purpose, it was to explain myself to a couple of people in particular. One of whom will respond in one way or another, and the other who will not. 
I don't feel I'm getting any cathartic benefit though, and I'd like to hope I could be a at least a little more poignant in print  
No..........just me, babbling away. One thing I forgot to add - I do this, this playing, both as a survival kind of thing (never be surprised again), as well as simple distraction. Sometimes if I can see how other people are messed up, it makes me feel less bad about myself somehow. 
That's part of what keeps me playing with the ex................


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Well, I consider it brave. JMHO

I asked the questions not to irritate but because I was genuinely interested. I feel as if I irritated you.

Apologies. 

terri


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

p.s. I really like that word poignant. Hard to say. Kind of like filet mignon.


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Oh yeah, plus, if we're talking about worse traits... I am

dependant
overly sensitive
passive/aggressive
i was told last night, on this site, i was an uneducated idiot...now *there's* a bad trait for you !
honest
believing
trustworthy

and believe you me, all of these can give you problems.

So there you have it.
terri*


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2005)

whoa.. you're like... it sounds like.... family? Man.. all of you.. you're like the brothers/sisters i never really got. So stoked if only to observe you people. Its like being locked in a room with myself, where myself is multiplexed to study myself. Like a choir. I wonder what it would be like if we all hung out. I hang out with a guy who i know has DP (i refuse to tell him because its funny to hear him say the things ive said to myself, and i refuse to tell myself that our friendship is a disease) and like.. we have so much fun its rediculous. We get fucked up and talk about the philosophical implications of reality.. haha.. its awesome. We should seriously have a yearly meet or something, if only to see what happens when you put this much benign narcisism in one room. So awesome. We could have transparent everythings. hehe.

eDfGr33n
"stoked!!!!"


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2005)

Terri*, that is so terrible. I always found you to be a VERy well-educated idiot (much like myself)

My worst traits mostly cluster around control issues. I get shy, scared, and very self-destructive when I feel out of control. When/if someone hurts me, or rejects me...I run. And the most pathetic thing is that I run from EVERYone - even from poor good souls who did nothing to me.

And then I have to try to clean it all up.

And it makes me feel very very bad.

I tend to take things out on the wrong people.

There.
confessional 101.

Love to all you idiots,
J


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Ohhh, me too! me too! me too! I'm so bad at the control issue stuff that I forgot to recognize it.

That is a very bad trait. It comes hidden in forms I never knew one could hide it in.

Anybody for dinner? We're having steak!

ohhh, and humble pie. :wink:

terri*


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2005)

I've always like the word "conundrum." Poignant is O.K. too I guess. 
And of course you didn't irritate me terri (you uneducated idiot). I am DP - it takes lots and lots to make me feel irritated, or anything else for that matter. 
And I'm in for dinner. Get a big group together though - I want lots of opportunities to play with people you know (it's so, so easy. I have a permanent sore spot on the right side of my rib cage due to my wife's elbow hitting me there so often when we're out with people. "You're playing again, knock it off! Smart, AND bitchy. Just the way I like 'em)


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2005)

My worse traits....

1. I am so stubborn.... trouble to liscen to what people really say. I tend to keep my opinion.

2. Feel always inferior to all people in the world. They all seem more smart than me, more... ALL : I always feel stupid, idiot, not able to work like a normal person. That makes me shy and I have trouble to integrate in a new group (at work, example). I always think they think I am so annoying, or stupid, or etc. I prefer to be alone than confront people.

3. I am obsessive (about Internet, DP/DR, myself). It's obvious.

4. I have a tentencie to big depression... like nothing can be better, I'll always stay like that. I always need reassurance, from anyone, and psys, docs, etc.

5. I am so perfectionnist I can't accept to be just OK. If I feel I will fail in an activity, or make a fool of myself, I don't do it.

6. I am afraid of ALL!  Illness, meds, etc.

That is all, for now !

Cyn xxx


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

I might start a thread encouraging people to list there best traits...but until then...

My worst traits

Like Janine, if anyone rejects me then I too run. In order to show them exactly what they're missing, to make them feel bad and see that they want me really! Infuriating for my boyfriend

Talk too much

Hate authority and react very badly at being told what to do. I Know what's best for me, even if I'm not doing it, so please don't point out that I'm ignoring what I already know....etc

Hate criticism, again, especially if people point out what I already know to be true

Hate not being the best at a sport or skill. Would rather be the worst than in the middle. Can't bear to be beaten at arm wrestling by another girl, nearly broke my friends arm last night trying to win

Have deep seated belief that I will only be happy with my body if I am thin

I really could go on


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## kenc127 (Aug 10, 2004)

Nice post sc.



> There's enough narcissim in this group to choke an entire herd of elephants


Agreed.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2005)

That I can cut people, when they hurt me, out of my life in an instant.
It takes me quite some work to NOT do it eventually (when I decide I do wanna keep them).

I think thats my worst. :shock:


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2005)

Terri I'm so surprised somebody here would actually say this to you.
If said to me........not so surprised because I am uneducated in a formal sense and I can be such an idiot.
The person who said this to you is an even bigger idiot.


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

I can be quite loud and bombastic 

(btw sorry if I offended anyone, that was not the original intent of what I was trying to say. But that's all overwith...so...sorry.)


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Hey Ken ! Saw this in the paper and thought about your comment.

EDF...this is your worst family/best family ever !

Shelly...yeah, that they would actually *say* it to me. :lol:

Just thought you guys, especially you SC, might get a kick out of the Garfield thing.


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## kenc127 (Aug 10, 2004)

LOL. Thanks Terri.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2005)

At the risk of narcissistic injury that I will be ridiculed for psychoanalyzing a cartoon, lol....I do want to add one valid point here to my fellow ego maniacs.

Garfield is using VERY healthy narcissism. WHile it's FUNNY, and we may recognize ourselves sometimes, lol...there is nothing at all wrong with G's use of delusion up there. He's making the best of a curious situation. A paranoid would assume he was being stared at as a target. A depressed person might assume he was being stared at in silent criticism. An anxiety patient might think "oh, he's noticing I look strange..maybe something is wrong!"

The narcissist is ONLY creating problems for himself when he loses perspective. If he can turn in his Garfield-way, a neutral situation into an ego boost, so be it. BUT...if he then NEEDS confirmation daily that he is indeed "stare-worthy" that's when he's asking for trouble.

Balance. All about balance and perspective. Two things that many people with narcissistic disturbances are not good at.

Okay. Done now.
LOL,
J


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2005)

exactly Terri,it's one thing to think it but to actually say it to your cyber face.......well that's another.
Ok,now I'm confused did I some how call person a "bigger idiot",my apologies if I did :?:

As for the cartoon,my very last assumption would be that somebody is staring at me because they think I'm stare worthy.
I'd most likely run the full of gament from spinach in my teeth,to nutter on the loose who has strong resentment toward blonde women who remind them of mummy dearest.

In fact in reality there is a strong suspicion that I have a stalker.
This odd ball seems to have an interest in me.I'm convinced he has a mother thing going on,even though I doubt that I'd be in the age range possible to be his mother.
He's creepy and I can't figure out what the hell he wants.I'm afraid to confront him.
The other day he whispered something as I walked by.

Sc,thanks for being honest but honestly I feel nervous when I know people play mind games.I'm not saying I never have,don't make a career out of it though.
Understand wanting to avoid conflict,it's big on my list too,not that I always manage it.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2005)

"bombastic" is a pretty cool word, too.

Shelly - I am relentlessly honest. I have to be. Truth, what is real...........is something I consider extremely important. May be the only thing keeping me sane. My "worst trait" of playing with people may or may not be any more or less than what most other people do. Everyone does it to one degree or another. I see it happening all around me, including here. It may be that I am simply more aware of it. 
Regardless, it is not a trait I am particularly proud of.

edit - turns out it's not true. Honesty is NOT always the best policy. Sometimes you get punished for it. 
In the interest of decency, and strength of character, I think I'll stick with it though. Better to sink knowing you're doing the right thing, than to swim with lies. Hopefully that is a legacy I will pass on to my boys. Make the world just a little bit better place than it would be otherwise.........


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2005)

Want to add something to what Ive said here, because it didnt sit right with me:



> That I can cut people, when they hurt me, out of my life in an instant.
> It takes me quite some work to NOT do it eventually (when I decide I do wanna keep them).
> 
> I think thats my worst.


Im not the kind of person to cut out people when there is no reason, even if there is only little bit of hurt or things go wrong or other stuff. Im flexible.
But when someone hurts me over and over again (like happened with two people in my life), I cut them out forgood. And I realize thats healthy behavior, not a bad trait. Just wanted to put a bit of perspective here  
I (can) take a lot from people (mostly I take too much at my own expense), but not when they mess around or fuck around or play with my honesty, good nature and intentions and love/care on more than one occasion. If they do, they are out! Ive learned that lesson.

Sc in all honesty, I dont like people playing games, or have some hidden agenda in trying to push my buttons to see if I can be trusted or can be played in order for the other to find some gratification or for whatever purpose. I CAN be trusted and feel no need to proove it or be subject to other peoples insecurities who cannot deal with their own issues.
Your post is very honest.

Wanted to clarify.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2005)

Wendy be honest,you can be so tough, one wrong word and it's off with your head lol it's ok my good Dutch friend has learnt to accept my cheeky Aussie humour.
It's true Wendy is so wonderfully patient ,it's a lovely trait.

Sc,honesty has got me into hot water more than once.
I've learnt it's ok to try and be honest with yourself but not always with others.
I'm still learning to bite my tongue and I have not always gained from opening up about myself to others.In fact there have been times I've found that my honesty has been used against me.
I have often not gained from telling somebody what my real thoughts are.
It's like that line from the movie a few good men,"they can't handle the truth" .lol
This is just my experience.I've found that there is often a fine line when it comes to being honest.
I guess what we call honesty can sometimes be our perceptions.The truth can come in different shapes and sizes.
A wise man once said "it's only a lie if you believe it is" lol that was 
George Costanza...........ok a neurotic man.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2005)

"George Costanza". Still more favorite words of mine. I consider his character one of my heros.

This thing has had nearly 400 reads in just two days. However, and I'm sure this is my fault due to choice of semantics - nobody seems to be getting my point. 
As mentioned, it was directed at two people in particular. Things have gone pretty much as predicted there. But nobody else seems to understand what I'm trying to say. 
Maybe it's my use of the word "play", and how I play with people. Perhaps I should have used a different word, although for me that one works. I "play people" to figure out who they are. Sometimes I go farther than other times. 
Another way to say it is that I........do what I can to understand another person. To "suss them out."
Somebody here mentioned mind games. That, to me, is a much less favorable way of putting it, but probably means the same thing.

My point here is this - we all have faults, things about ourselves that we don't like. The number of possible faults is limited, in that people are people. Things then become a matter of degree. 
So, and using different words, one of my "faults" is the desire to understand other people. To suss them out. To get them to show their hand, for the single purpose of not being surprised by this person later. I want to know who they really are. Like I said earlier, this has become more evident to me since becoming DP. 
On the other hand, many, many things have become more evident to me since I became DP. Many faults. That's due to my constant introspection - I am much more aware of some things now than I was before. 
Everybody, every single person out there, plays "mind games", depending on how you define the term. Whether I play people more than anyone else, I don't know. What I do know is that, since becoming more aware of doing it myself I have also become more aware of others doing it. And I like I said, it happens everywhere - definitely including here. 
You put a bunch of passive-agressive types together, people who almost by definition play with others, and you've got all sort of games going on. I'll even admit I get some kind of perverse pleasure out of watching some of you do it with each other. 
THAT is why I started this post. By admitting to people that I play games, I was hoping to start others thinking they may in fact do the same thing. 
The person who can look in the mirror and honestly believe they do not "play games" as I define the phrase is, to me, one of two things: 1) a rather accomplished liar, or 2) not human. 
Because it is human nature to do our best to understand our fellow inhabitants. Not only is it in our nature, it is one of our strongest, most basic needs.

Also, and (honestly) trying my best not to be repetitive - I am relentlessly, hopelessly honest. I drive people away from me in real life due to this particular trait. Sure, "honesty" can take as many forms as "truth", but bottom line is I just about drive people nuts being both so honest, and open (yes, this immediately brings up the question as to how I've managed to stay married, but that's for a different thread.....)

terri" mentioned something about it being brave for me to be open enough to even start this thread. Courageous I think she said. 
After thinking about it I guess I would agree, to some extent. That extent being the point at which courage, and masochism begin to blur into a single concept. Which can happen very quickly at times I've found.

Anyway.........my point with the original post - the game I was playing if you'd rather, was to find out a little more about a couple of people in particular. Find out a little more about who they are. The way I did that was to admit to playing games, to see if either of them are strong enough, courageous enough to admit to the same. 
I was successful in that goal.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2005)

Sc,Mr Honesty to a fault,no point in being secretive now.......who are these two unsuspecting people who admitted to this trait of mind games.

I doubt if it was me,as we don't communicate often.
Besides if you wanted to know if I played mind games,why not just ask.
As I said yes,I've done it.I don't put a lot of energy into it and it's not a big part of who I am.
I think must people would say pretty much the same........yes?

Maybe you are good at being honest,what about being direct.
I don't know,I'm not a major player but isn't it easier to just ask?doesn't mean you will always get your answer I will admit.

Oh well Sc,each to their own,I'm just avoiding doing my banking.

by the way if it sounds like I think I was one of the people,I realise I'm not ............if you know what I mean?just using myself as an example
I'm very dp'd lately and for some reason my brain gets extra mushy


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2005)

> Maybe you are good at being honest,what about being direct.


out of the mouths of Aussie oragutans, lol..(Ms. Shelly). Brilliant.

We're ALL likely to exhibit parts of ourselves here that is somewhat reminiscent of group therapy - sometimes I've had other members (even the illusive Mr. sc) see things in me that are SO accurate other friends of mine have missed.

This is a fantastic forum not only for dp sharing, but to really have ourselves SEEN in some odd internet kind of way....yet in many ways, it can be highly useful.

I like this group so much....and I respect nearly all of you (please don't now start PMing me asking if you're one of the ones I don't respect, lol)

Insecurity, thy name is human.

LOve,
J


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

sooo, now i know...sc is talking behind my back and playing games with my oh so fragile ego and Janine doesn't respect me. ( Yes, this was kiddingly written. )

Yes, Shell is quite the brillant Aussie orangutan...mushy brain and all.

Wendy, I am like you are about the repeated hurts. It took me a long time to come to the conclusion that cutting toxic people out of your life is an okay thing to do. At least you and I think it's okay. :wink:


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Interesting SC. I too have recently gone through a period of introspection...coming to terms with some home truths about myself. But hey...life is too short to worry.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Hi sc - I reread your posts in this thread, and am still unsure what do you exactly mean by playing people/mind games. If I have understood it right, you mean by it purposefully acting in certain ways (e.g. saying certain things) toward the other person in order to know, how the person will react in response. Trying to get that other person show one's flaws in that kind of way sounds like manipulation to me (sorry, I don't want to sound offensive in any way, but can't find a better word to describe it).

Does it not lead to untrue connection with the other person, I think it does? I mean that by trying to get that other person to react in certain ways, for me it feels like that one doesn't interact with her/him being simply oneself, but rather is like a scientist doing a psychological experiment with a guinea pig. In that way I feel the connection with the other person can't be honest, as the player isn't truly oneself in that situation, trying really to connect with the other person, but is just playing games with her/him in order to see how she/he would react. I can't see it as honesty at all.

However, I am a person who dislikes all social games, indeed I have never even learned to play them well, as I can't see the point. Would it not be easier to get to know the other person by simply being oneself, as truly as possible, I mean trying to really connect/communicate/interact with that other person - and by doing that one could learn to know who she/he is, naturally without games? One will nevertheless learn to know the person and her/his flaws, but it may take some time. But in that way building trust toward her/him might be a lot easier, as one learns to be only oneself with the other person without the shameful secret of playing with her/him. At least that's how I believe it to be.

I hope you won't consider my questions and thoughts disrespectful. I just don't like playing games, and prefer avoiding them indeed. If I would know someone had been playing with me like that, I would feel hurt. I believe I would find it very hard to trust that person again - perhaps never, as I couldn't know whether she/he would start playing with me again. Could you clarify what do you mean by playing people, sc - if I have understood your thoughts wrong, please try to explain to me what you meant.

(I guess there probably are people who play mind games in Finland too, so I can't say that I don't understand the point just because I am a Finn. Maybe it is just because I am me, who has never learned what's the point in doing that. And saying this - I believe I'm honest, not a liar, and still human too. Maybe I just didn't understand what you meant by playing people, but for me it sounds like deliberate manipulation. :shock


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2005)

Janine, you say:



> sometimes I've had other members see things in me that are SO accurate other friends of mine have missed.


I think that just happened here with me:



> Wendy be honest,you can be so tough, one wrong word and it's off with your head lol it's ok my good Dutch friend has learnt to accept my cheeky Aussie humour.
> It's true Wendy is so wonderfully patient ,it's a lovely trait.


LOLOL. Its TRUE! Took me a long time to accept this aspect from myself. And Shelly, thanks for reminding me. Im amazed you see it, I thought I kept it hidden very well :? lol



> I just don't like playing games, and prefer avoiding them indeed. If I would know someone had been playing with me like that, I would feel hurt. I believe I would find it very hard to trust that person again - perhaps never, as I couldn't know whether she/he would start playing with me again.


Ninnu, its my WORST WORST WORST fear that people will do this with me.



> I guess there probably are people who play mind games in Finland too, so I can't say that I don't understand the point just because I am a Finn.


Also in Holland people play mind games. That was just too funny you said that.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2005)

Yep, Wendy, I totally hear you, lol...it's amazing what we can learn about Self without ever even laying eyes on these people!

Ninnu and sc: I think it's important for anyone to be able to admit if/when they've been manipulative.....that honesty is vital. But I do agree that it is NOT a good way to be - for anyone concerned.

The sad part is that when folks do it, they do so because of massive fear of rejection - it's a way of striking first, fooling before BEING fooled, etc...it always comes from a dark place of pain.

I am not manipulative in the mind game sense...I hate it, used to be somewhat that way DECADES ago, but I no longer need it or tolerate it. I DO however, have an intense social facade, can charm the pants off most people...but I am not pretending to be something other than "on" in the star sort of way. I try too hard, that's one game I play...I do so much more than I'd need to do. Then I'm enraged if I don't get my way, lol.

To honesty. IF it's intended as communication, not more manipulation.

Love,
J


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Wendy said:


> Ninnu, its my WORST WORST WORST fear that people will do this with me.


I may be lucky or then people in Finland really are more direct and honest than some other nationalities, cuz I have never experienced being played (thank God). Or perhaps it is not the question of being lucky at all, but rather me having this kind of personality - hating even social games; e.g. flirting just for the sake of it, without really meaning anything * - have always naturally been drawn to "like-minded" people. Even the violent ex-boyfriend of mine, who is the worst of all people I have ever met, was never manipulative. He could be really nasty toward me, afterwards being sorry for his behaviour, but I believe he was totally honest when he said he was sorry - he just repeated the same cycle of abuse cuz he didn't have the strength to cut it.



Wendy said:


> Also in Holland people play mind games. That was just too funny you said that.


You're welcome!  By the way, because of the fact that I have never met any grown-up Finn playing mind games and bc of another fact that I have never ** played games with anyone else I cannot say, whether any players of mind games exist or not in Finland. However, just because I haven't met one doesn't necessarily mean they are non-existent. So I decided to not mention my nationality as the reason for my character...

* Well, flirting is pretty alien to Finns anyway. I guess Finns are generally quite direct and honest, and if they can't say something in order to not hurt someone, they do not say anything. Thus flirting is considered as a way of cheating.

** Except in my early childhood somewhere under the age 10, when I was too little and stupid, I used to cheat my littlebrother to join me in an "icecream eating competition". My poor littlebrother devoured his icecream as fast as he could, of course - after that I started enjoying my icecream, eating it veeeeery sloooowly in front of my littlebrother, showing him how heavenly tasty it is. Fortunately my brother learned his lesson soon, and refused to join in the contest since that. However - he has mentioned while we have been chatting about our childhood time, that he used the same trick with our littlesister later... Small children can be soooo stupid and cruel sometimes! :wink:


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2005)

I would like to thank sc again for bringing such an interesting and useful topic to our attention even if in the process you have copped some flack.
Now who's manipulating who? lol............no really no mind games here,I'm not bright enough.

As for Janine's social facade according to my main source of information on communication,Dr Phil,lol.
He says everybody wears a social mask.........everybody.
I know I do,even though it may seem unnecessary I even wear it here sometimes.
I went to a party the other night and noticed that the wealthy wife hostess(ex international flight attendant).
I'd seen the same smile and polite attitude every time I'd been to a gathering there.
It was like she was back doing her old job but dressed in versace.
I wondered what the real person was really like and wished I could have an opportunity to find out...........I'd puke if she really is that nice.

I also wore my mask to the ball.I tried extra hard to be agreeable,even told one man I liked Rhubarb pie too :roll:

I have a retail fashion shop,talk about a mask and manipulation........ladies if you don't already know it,shop assistants do not care if your ass looks big,they are just trying to reach a target.
Not entirely true,sometimes caring happens,not to divas though.Oh it's a cold,cruel world.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

JanineBaker said:


> I DO however, have an intense social facade, can charm the pants off most people...but I am not pretending to be something other than "on" in the star sort of way.


Oh I wish I could do the same! The uni will arrange an excursion to two pulp mills of Finland in the near future, and I will go to see the mills too - and I'm already afraid that I won't have noone to talk to during the excursion, cuz somehow I have difficulties in joining in a strange company. I'm really not very social at all, and that is a drawback in those kind of situations - at uni I use to talk to those students only, who start chatting with me first. Yet I am not shy, it is not because of that - I just find the small talk part too difficult. If there was a shop, which would sell social skills, I'd go there and buy some indeed.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2005)

Remember people - this is a "worst traits" thread. Also remember, I'm not at all sure I do the "playing" thing any more than anyone else. I have simply become more aware of it since becoming DP, don't consider it a good thing, and have to watch myself to avoid it.

Ninnu, you provide an example, though not the most obvious, of what I'm trying to discuss in this thead. You had a response earlier up where you were typing about how you think playing mind games is not a good thing. By the way you were saying it, I felt you were taking time to choose your words carefully. Rather than saying.......well gee clay, I think it's total bullshit that you would play games with people, you toned it down, you adapted your response to better fit the way the thread was going. That, to me, is an example of adapting to, and trying to fit in to a social situation. Essential for effective communication. 
Is that part of the game playing I'm discussing? Yes. 
A more extreme example would be what I have been doing with my ex-girlfriend. Knowing this woman has just about destroyed me. I can't directly blame her - I was the fool that fell in love. However, I feel she lied to me, over and over and over again. I also think she purposely, maliciously tried to cause me pain. Human nature, human weakness caused me to want to strike back. To defend myself. I have been purposely messing with her for just that purpose. To strike back. As I said much earlier in this thread - I am disgusted with myself for doing it.

Then there are the infinite shades of grey between those two extremes. I firmly believe that everyone here, and anywhere else, will, at times, use psychological game playing to their advantage. Whether it's batting your eyes to attract the guy at the end of the bar, or sucking up to your boss to get that raise; being extra nice to someone in the hopes they like you, to being extra nice to someone in the hopes they don't hurt you; pretending you enjoy being with your mother-in-law just to please your wife (something else I have to be good at), to fending off your sister-in-law (who is playing bigtime games with her sister); laughing and joking with someone you don't like just because your friend does, to smiling sweetly at the bratty neighbor kid; posing questions, presenting scenarious......sounding out a potential lover in order to find out more about them..............everybody does it. 
I understand that I will continue to do that sort of thing. As a human, and as magnified by my experience of DP, I have a need to know who people are, and what they are might do. Not everyone is forthcoming - in fact nobody is TOTALLY forthcoming, and in order to truly know someone, sometimes you need to take a more roundabout way. Oh, and before i forget - somebody mentioned flirting. An obvious game, and one which I will happily admit to engaging in. Even at my age, a little harmless flirting is fun. I'm constantly doing it here with Janine, for instance. Sure, she rarely dignifies it with a response, but I will continue on until she asks me to stop - or I have achieved my goal 

On the other hand, I also am aware that I am capable of doing it - whether you want to call it playing, manipulating, whatever- consciously, to harm another person. And I do not like that about myself. That's why I think it's my worst trait. But sorry, I just can't get myself to believe that I'm the only one who's ever done it.

Maybe someone should start a "BEST traits" thread. If for no other reason than to allow me a chance to pull myself up out of the mud.

edited by sc - took out an unnecessary reference to something Ninnu brought up in a different thread.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2005)

> Even at my age, a little harmless flirting is fun. I'm constantly doing it here with Janine, for instance. Sure, she rarely dignifies it with a response, but I will continue on until she asks me to stop - or I have achieved my goal


dump that ex girlfriend who doesn't appreciate you, and I'll take you places Klonopin has only hinted at.

:lol: :lol: 8)


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2005)

first real smile of the day. Thanks JB


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Haha....that was really funny. I dont think I've ever seen Janine respond like that to you, Sc. I think she's jealous.

I can relate to your problem of messing with people and finding their weaknesses, well, just for the heck of it. Honestly, I think its a power trip for intelligent people with too much time on their hands. I havent had a whole lot lately, so that kind of helped me to give it up. But you ARE backpedaling quite a bit in your threads, here, Sc. You've spent a good bit of time in the last day or so writing rationalizations for your behaviors and rebuttals to, well, yourself. Denial aint just a river in Egypt. :wink: Dont worry about what the people on here think about you. I know you do alot. But dont. Maybe you think thats the only way you really matter, since, after all, you dont exist in your own mind. Well, in the end, your the person who has to live with Clay. So convince yourself that you exist so you can stop convincing others that you have the right to. Later!

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2005)

thanks for the comments HS. It does seem I have been backpedaling a bit........... Although, and to continue my rationalization (also something I listed as a "worst trait), I'd like to think it's been more in an attempt to clear up the semantics than anything else. I wish I wouldn't have used the phrase "play with people." I think I include much more in that than some others do. 
I appreciate your candor regarding doing it simply because you can. 
I do as well. And (here comes Mr. Rationalization again) so do lots and lots of other people. 
Again, this is something that's become more apparent to me since I've been DP, and likely mostly because I have become so introspective. I notice all sorts of things about myself now that I didn't before. I didn't know I was attracted to older women before the DP hit, for instance (hi Janine). A shame I didn't know earlier really, because at my age women, or men for that matter older than me are becoming much less numerous.


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## enigma (Feb 18, 2005)

My obnoxious _overusage of italics_.

Okay, so it does get worse than that.

But it's definitely not for the overly sensitive or faint of heart.

So I'll just keep the content here light...gentle.....delicate.........I'm not even going to swat that _fly_.

e


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

sc said:


> Rather than saying.......well gee clay, I think it's total bullshit that you would play games with people, you toned it down, you adapted your response to better fit the way the thread was going. That, to me, is an example of adapting to, and trying to fit in to a social situation. Essential for effective communication.
> Is that part of the game playing I'm discussing? Yes.


Thanks, sc - your example of game playing (my post) clarified a lot to me. I didn't know you meant by playing games e.g. adaptation to social situations too. However, in my words - I wouldn't call it playing, but just trying to connect with the other person without trying to seek harm.

For example - there is one friend of mine, who is very quick at getting angry, if something doesn't go in the way she has expected. I found it out myself, when we were felting hair ribbons at her apartment (the other times I had just witnessed when she had become mad at her boyfriend). I happened to drip some water drops on the floor, and she started shouting at me that she hasn't invited me to come felting at her apartment just so I could mess up every place there.

I was surprised and shocked bc of her reaction (IMO overreaction), and since that I have been very careful in her company. Actually I have started avoiding her a bit, bc I feel I have to be so cautious that I hardly can relax at all in her presence. But I feel I'm still myself in her company, though with only a part of me. However, I don't consider it playing, but just as a way of trying to avoid disagreement.

But about using/not using the word "playing" while describing that kind of adaptive behaviour - I guess it may be the question of semantics indeed.

About mind games - I just remembered I have taken part in them though in my previous post I said I have never played them. In my last summer job I had the kind of boss, who started complaining to me for everything I did, without any reason. She stopped doing that when I finally lost my temper and yelled her that I do my work as well as I can, and there is no reason to complain about the quality of my work. (Well, soon after the lady boss stopped teasing me, she took another person to bully.) But - I couldn't be myself at all in her company, as she wasn't herself either. She was always smiling at me since I lost my temper, but I'm pretty sure her smile was just a facade without any true meaning. Thus I decided to just pretend politeness in her presence to avoid further harm. IMO what I did in my summer job, could have been called game playing, as I didn't even try to be myself in her presence. I had to be a smiling facade in order to keep my job - and it felt so burdening, that I swear I will never go to work in that place again.



sc said:


> Not everyone is forthcoming - in fact nobody is TOTALLY forthcoming, and in order to truly know someone, sometimes you need to take a more roundabout way.


About that roundabout way, what you described in your first post - THAT still sounds like some form of manipulation to me, if you meant by it deliberately acting in a certain way in order to find out how the other person will react in response. I believe one *will* learn to know what kind of person the other one is well enough by simply communicating with her/him too, without hidden tricks. Of course it will take time, but what the heck, I guess we are not running out of time soon yet (at least I guess the end of the world isn't too near).

For example - I learned that one of my friends can be made angry very easily by accidentally dripping some water drops on her floor, which I didn't know earlier.  Seriously speaking though, I'm pretty sure I hardly know her yet, and I guess will never learn to know her very well. But an idea of me purposefully trying to "test" her in order to get her revealing some secrets of herself so I could see if she could be trusted, I couldn't do that. I can't see the point of doing that. I would feel like a manipulator. Rather I am content of the relationship like it is, and let the time decide if the person will become a good, trusted friend of mine or not. Or that's how I see it.

(Well, I could say I have only two very good friends - i.e. who I can really trust that they are and will be my friends "forever" - and I have met both of them since we were 9 y/o. So I may be a bit too antisocial to say anything about learning to know others...)



sc said:


> Oh, and before i forget - somebody mentioned flirting. An obvious game, and one which I will happily admit to engaging in. Even at my age, a little harmless flirting is fun.


It was me. About flirting, it is pretty uncommon practise in Finland. When I said it can be considered as a way of cheating here, I do not want to mean by it that I would hate all the people who use to flirt. It is just one of the cultural differencies I think. If I remember it right, flirting is very common in Latin America - according to one interview of a South American woman living in Finland. In the interview she said she felt Finnish culture very odd, and hardly felt herself being a woman here first, because Finnish men do not flirt at all, not with words, neither with any other way. I guess she must have considered Finnish men being ill-mannered in the beginning, but didn't say that in the interview though.

A small cultural truth: If a Finnish man says that the woman is beautiful, he either has fallen in love with her, or is just trying to get under her skirt. For me knowing this is practical and convenient - in that way the woman will know for sure if the man is really interested in her (in one or in the other of those two alternative ways). Indeed - if somebody would be flirting with me, I would think about those two options at once. It would never even come to my mind that the person would have been just playing an innocent game with me. But OK, this is enough of Finnish culture this time, before you will start thinking that I'm a way too much into ethnology. :wink:


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2005)

> A small cultural truth: If a Finnish man says that the woman is beautiful, he either has fallen in love with her, or is just trying to get under her skirt.


whether or not this matters diminishes with age. Eventually, you're just flattered and don't think much beyond it. LOL


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2005)

To Janine:

:wink: :wink: :wink:

LOL

(just grant me my daily portion of fun and flirts, sorry couldnt leave it  )


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2005)

Wendy wrote


> just grant me my daily portion of fun and flirts


Well, there you have the Middle Aged Woman's daily creed.

LOL right back!
Love,
J


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