# Dilemma#1



## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

I know you won't believe this, but it's true. These kind of things happen to me. So disregarging the possibility that I'm full of s**t (I know it's hard), reason with me....

I was sleeping on the train this morning, with one of my christmas prezzies...a book called 'The God Delusion' by my hero, Richard Dawkins, on the table in front of me, and I was rather rudely awoken (kicked in the shins) by the conductor who said..."Sir, that book might cause offense...would you mind putting it away?"

In normal circumstances, lets say - if I were awake, I would have caused an almighty scene - but seeing as I was a bit dopey and half awake, I just grunted and put the book in my ruck-sack. It was only when I got to Cambridge, woke up, and realised the ramifications of what he had said, that the fires of my indignation (ney - astonishment) were stoked. I stalked off to the 'complaints' (see 'Customer Services) office, and said I wanted to make a complaint. The poor little thing in the glass booth listened to my increasingly (I remember, with shame - that I was shrieking towards the end) hysterical rant (she was about 17, wearing a thin smile and a pink paper christmas hat) and said she didn't really know what I was complaining about. I smiled my best smile (she was rather attractive, and I can't help myself - even if she were a judge proclaiming the death sentence on me, I'm sure I'd wink and run my tongue over my lips!) and said I'd not waste her time, and send off a letter.

So...the question is, before I start writing my letter, what do you think I should ask for in compensation? I mean, apart from the physical assualt A thousand? Ten thousand? Is there a limit of freedom of........er, reading what you like? As a radical Atheist, I am not prone to killing people or burning down buildings that belong to people of faith like the religious do, so what do I do? Are words enough? A pamphlet campain perhaps?

As you can see, it's hard being an atheist. We don't have it in us to murder people for our non-belief. And that's a shame. Can you imagine if atheists were as blinkered and (permanently) furious as the religous? Dear lord/s. What a fire that would be. Good job us atheists recognise the futility of it all.

Still, they are going to get one HELL of a angry letter.! Whoa!

Perhaps the neo-cons and the Islamic world would be more effectual if they wrote steaming, self rightous letters of complaint, rather than firing laser guided missiles down a chimney or strapping dynamite to themselves and walking into a diner. It's just a thought.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Or you could let it slide and take it as a lesson to stand up for your beliefs next time.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

I'd love to Cecil, I really would. But unfortunately I am not prone to sitting back and getting shafted by the continuing howling gale of religiosity and political (ethical?) correctness. I mean, can you imagine the uproar if someone dared to tell someone to put their bible/koran/torah away? I tell you, it would cause front page news.

I was in London over New Year, and I was sorely tempted to say something to a Jew who was sitting opposite me, on the tube, reading the torah, nodding his head like a parrot and muttering under his breath, but I'm not offended by it, and my girlfriend (also an atheist) dislikes a scene, but I did think about it for the sake of balance.


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Well, I'm actually not on the conductor's side. I'm on your side and the Jew reading his Torah, actually. Didnt ever think you'd be lumped in with the religious as one seeking "freedom of expression", did you? But that, in fact, is why the Puritan's came to America. It seems to me, and it may just be me, but it seems to me that the United Kingdom is slowly becoming the spitting image of the Orwellian "utopia" of 1984. In every way. From what I recall, there is no public smoking any more in pubs or restaurants. The right to bear firearms have been revoked. They now have a board which decides which advertisements are "good" (can the state make such a judgement?) for children to see with their telelvision programming. Last week they decided that cheese is decidedly unhealthy, and that it could no longer be advertised with Barney or Teletubbies or whatever it is that British children watch. Our own Constitution was, in my opinion, simply a reinforcing of the original Magna Carta. Restating that people should be free to govern themselves. It also protects the English from themselves, who, in the name of "propriety" have always tended to legislate that which they aught not, and to try to "rectify" and "control" that which people must rectify on their own, either through a monarchy or now through the parliament. And at first, these things always start out well. Make firearms illegal. Great. It sounds very well intentioned. But rest assured, people who need them will find them on the black market. It certainly hasnt stopped the new Jack the Ripper. And law-abiding citizens wont have any line of defense when Big Brother decides to attach "penalties" to smoking, having atheist or theist books, and eating cheese. It sounds funny, doesnt it? But some of the greatest atrocities against man have started out from a misunderstood sense of propriety. The burning of the ancient library of Alexandria. The defacing of Hagia Sophia in Constantinople. The destruction of native cultures by the British and by Missionaries. The burning of books by the Nazis. The Cultural Revolution of Mao. Communism. They all seek to control or eradicate something they see as "wrong". We're adults, and we're not here to control each other. We can help or give our opinions, but God is the only one who can guide our lives or truly know whether what we are doing is good for us. NOT men. Martin, if I were you, I'd not write a letter. Just do the same thing next time, and then defend yourself. But do so with patience. If your right, you should be able to defend yourself without bile. Just anger makes you feel better afterwards, not worse. As for the wonderful Jew reading his Torah - well, you should join him next time. A very venerable practice, and he has alot of courage to do so on the "tube".

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Wow, I was thinking this myself, and as usual Homeskooled can articulate all of this far better than I.

Bottom line, Britain is Socialist, hence it has MORE governmental intervention in domestic affairs than the US and less choice in the matter.

By GOD, Homeskooled, you hit the nail on the head.

AMEN.
(Sorry Martin, but he's correct, err, sorry Home, except for God, I simply don't agree with that, but I agree with everything else. But I do like the way you incorporate your Faith into this Home. And that is your right.)

"Farenheit 451" (Ray Bradbury -- Michael Moore stole that as well) is that the correct temperature? -- "the temperature at which books burn." If you believe in the freedom to express atheism, so does someone have the freedom to worship as they choose. Tit (sorry) for tat. LOL, one of my favorite Brit expressions is "tits up", LOLOLOLOLOL.

I must say, I DO prefer one thing about England. Billboard advertising on the side of the road is UGLY. Your government decides when and where someone can place a billboard. Your landscapes are far more beautiful and unsullied than here in the US. Also note that in Canada, driving from Detroit to Toronto.

But we debate that at the civilian level. Your government has made that decision for you. And yes, we carry on endlessly; should there be prayer in school?, is abortion a woman's right? stem cell research... should The Ten Commandments be in public areas? Should we swear on the Bible in Court? These battles never end. But the Federal Government should NOT decide these things.

At least we decide things at State levels - and many States have different laws, down to the speed limit on the freeway. None of this is an easy battle. Who says whom is correct? A conductor in the US would not say that to you on a subway, or tube, or if he/she did that would be totally unnaceptable. If anything, you might get beaten up by one of the other passengers, LOL.

If you were carrying a suspicious ticking briefcase, I would hope to God an official would intervene however .........

Ah, life ain't easy.
Man I'm depressed again, and this is my only outlet for keeping myself occupied. I HATE that, but I enjoy the debates down here.
Love,
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Martinelv said:


> I'd love to Cecil, I really would. But unfortunately I am not prone to sitting back and getting shafted by the continuing howling gale of religiosity and political (ethical?) correctness. I mean, can you imagine the uproar if someone dared to tell someone to put their bible/koran/torah away? I tell you, it would cause front page news.
> 
> I was in London over New Year, and I was sorely tempted to say something to a Jew who was sitting opposite me, on the tube, reading the torah, nodding his head like a parrot and muttering under his breath, but I'm not offended by it, and my girlfriend (also an atheist) dislikes a scene, but I did think about it for the sake of balance.


"I was in London over New Year, and I was sorely tempted to say something to a Jew who was sitting opposite me, on the tube, reading the torah, *nodding his head like a parrot and muttering under his breath."
*

Martin, that is racist and insulting. It scares me a tad. Last time I was on the tube, I thanked the Lord that I was wearing a long black trench like winter coat. I fit in with every single person on their way to work, all with their heads buried in their morniing news. But I wasn't complaining. It was a pleasant quiet ride that I would prefer to the chaos in NYC.

I felt had I been wearing a different color and if I spoke I'd be thrown off at the next stop.

I'm not saying there is total conformity, but it was rather a disquieting site. Personally I PERFER the courtesy and cleanliness of the tube, or at least on the long ride I had, also the ride I had from Heathrow to Harlow which is SO HANDY. I LOVE the tube. But I felt I had to especially behave myself. Be civil or someone would give me the evil eye. Or of course call me a boistrous, idiotic American, which we indeed are, LOL.

We haven't figured "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" ... I adhere to that rule when traveling. It's a matter of courtesy. Your comment about the Jewish man who really wasn't disturbing you by sticking a knife to your throat and demanding your wristwatch is ... sad.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> Martin, that is racist and insulting.


Pardon? How on Earth is that racist? He _was_ sitting there nodding his head like a Parrot, muttering under his breath. How else should I describe it? How politically correct do you want me to be? I'm no holocaust denier! I didn't call him a filthy jewish pig! It is because of the religious implications? If so, then defend my right, ten-thousand fold, of taking the piss. Because that's all I'm doing. God/s fobid that anyone else has had slightly sarky _thoughts_ about women in Burkha's, Rastafarians and their multi-coloured dream hats, hordes of Japanese tourists - swarming around London as one giggling Borg-like collective, burly gay German men slapping each others tonsils with their tongues, large-hipped women of Africa origin taking up three seats, screaming Italian bambinos running up and down the platform while their gleeful parents watch on - expecting everyone else to adore their life-threatening tantrums, Indians with 'Don't Freak, I'm A Sheik' written on their turbans.....no, never. The thought police might get us!

I can't believe I'm getting blasted for pointing out the total inconsistency of all this. I was just snoozing on a train, with a book on my lap, and I got kicked in the shins and told to put it away, in case it might 'offend' someone! And then I get a bollocking for getting upset about it! Perish the thought! Perhaps if us Atheists flew some planes into a building or started blowing up trains, then we might get some attention. But no, we just mind out own business and STILL get the rough end of the stick. The hypocrisy is breathtaking. I find it quite revealing that when atheists stir themselves from their apathetic slumber and dare to raise their voices slightly (as when the 'Incitement to Religious Hatred' bill was introduced, some mild mannered, respected comedians, literary figures and intellectuals got a bit stroppy - rightly saying that this bill was a thinly veiled (no pun intended) attempt to force us to respect religion, and not to poke fun - no 'Life of Brian', for instance) we are told, loudly, to 'get off our high horses'!!!!! All they did was get a bit miffed. And politely too. I can't remember them stoning any theatres (as some Hindu's did recently when a Hindu woman had a play running that highlighted the despicable plight of women in religously fundamental societies), urging their breathren to nuke Denmark (as some Moslems recently did, when a cartoon appeared in a Danish newspaper, gently mocking 'the prophet'), or as this very day the Christian 'centre' coallition (what the hell is that?) are *marching* on Westminster because the government has dared to suggest the Homosexuals should have equal rights and not be discriminated against when it comes to business. And you should read the fuming, shrieking letters that dominate the papers when the high priest (pun intended) of Atheism, my hero, the great Professor Richard Dawkins, points out the dreadful harm caused by religion, apart from the fact that his books regularly top the charts.



> it seems to me that the United Kingdom is slowly becoming the spitting image of the Orwellian "utopia" of 1984. In every way. From what I recall, there is no public smoking any more in pubs or restaurants. The right to bear firearms have been revoked. They now have a board which decides which advertisements are "good" (can the state make such a judgement?) for children to see with their telelvision programming. Last week they decided that cheese is decidedly unhealthy, and that it could no longer be advertised with Barney or Teletubbies or whatever it is that British children watch.


Perhaps, yes - compared to our euopean neighbours anyway, who, especially our Latin friends, gleefully disregard petty rules and regulatons. Yes, smoking will soon be banned in pubs and restaurants (July I think). Which, for health reasons, is a good thing. Of course, as a smoker myself, I'm a bit miffed about it; not just because I'll have to stand outside in the rain for a ***, but because I'm opposed to blanket bans on anything. I'll also passionately for the right of the individual to pour whatever s**t into his/her body. It's nobodies business but their own. If non-smokers want to go to a pub or restaurant that is exclusively non-smoking - then great, there are already hundreds of them about. We don't force them to inhale our deadly fumes - despite what they say. And as far as I know, we have never had the 'right' to bear firearms. And thank gods/ for that. Otherwise we'd end up like the states. It has often amused/bemused me, when I've been over to the states, that you are unable to have a cigarette without being hissed and spat at and virtually cast out as a social paraiah (I remember being in Thousand Oaks, CA, and was informed that it was illegal to smoke within 100 yards of a populated building - which meant that I spent many a happy 5 minutes in the middle of the desert, puffing away on my tab - not to mention that I had to get a DNA analysis to prove that I was over 21 to get a beer), but you are positively encouraged to bristle with an armoury that would put the Marines to shame. Bizarre! But yes, the stealthy growth of the 'nanny-state' is quite nauseating - to most Brits I expect, except those 'middle-englanders' who believe the hysteria and shocking lies they read in the tabloids. Saying that, it doesn't interfere with our lives on a day to day basis, so I won't be writing any letters of protest; well, until it does impact on my life. But I'm so apatheic in this regard, I doubt that I'll get upset unless it gets to the point where we have electronic tags inserted into our brains. We are tracked steathily anyway - mobile phones, CCTV, Sat-Nav, Credit Cards transactions - so unless you're doing something wrong - who cares. I don't. One thing that has stirred my cockles recently, is the governments plan to put all our medical records on a central database; the intention being (I think) to be able to 'monitor' (sigh) people who are potentionally dangerous - i.e, the mentally ill/drug users/alcoholics/people with harmful transmittable diseases (i.e - AIDS)...etc. I think that's waaaaaay off base. It's almost akin to sticking a yellow star of david on a jew, wouldn't you agree? Still, us mentally ill alcoholics are able to opt out of this scheme! Yipeee! If the mental health services in this s**thole weren't so, well, s**t, then we wouldn't have potentially dangerous mentally ill people roaming the streets, and wouldn't have to hunt them down like rabid dogs.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Ah, Hell, Martin. I'm not one to be politically correct, I find that bullshit. And yes, racist was an exaggeration sp!?.

But the way you described that man was ... crude. Unnecessary I guess.

I saw, don't puke, "Wife Swap", the other night. Absolutely ludicrous program, but when I'm depressed and miserable I have to switch on the worst program for distraction.

A mother from a very religious Christian family was exchanged with a woman from a very "free thinking" atheist home. The requirements for the game are simply to learn something from the other family/mother.

Well, there was tremendous rigidity in both homes, but I found it interesting that in the "very tolerant" atheist household the father and the children treated the visiting religious woman with no respect or courtesy, even though they believe in "free thinking." The other woman, though certain she was in "the devil's house" was courteous. So were her children to the "free thinking" mother.

I didn't agree with either lifestyle. It was extreme, and the greatest damage in both families was to the children. However, the children in the freethinking household threw the Bibles on the floor and insulted the religious woman. That isn't tolerance.

I believe freedom for you, and for the Jewish dude and whomever.

I'm sorry I was bitchy as I'm crabby.

But the last thing I am is politically correct, I'm not a feminist (that was in some other thread), and it simply sounded crass, the way you put the description of the man performing a ritual that wasn't bothering anyone except you.

I don't understand the conductor. Perhaps it was a personal beef he had.

Oh, everyone makes everything so simplistic, when it isn't. We are all a group of floundering individuals.

I'm just saying, if you expect to be respected for your atheism, don't preach ... as you accuse others of preaching. You could have said, "There was a Christian man, praying quietly to himself, or reading quietly from the Bible."

Wow, we are so different here despite the infernal DP.

I'm not PC, I hate PC!!!!!

D
And yes Martin, you are capable, as you admit in another post, of being infinitely cruel. Insensitive. Racist was the wrong word.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> However, the children in the freethinking household threw the Bibles on the floor and insulted the religious woman. That isn't tolerance


Yes, I do that all the time. :roll: Do you perhaps the program had an agenda? I damn all atheists who that kind of thing. If continues to feed the image that us atheists are bigoted as the religious. Anyhow, 'Wife Swap' always pushes together the extremes of both ends of the spectrum. I mean, that's the whole idea behind it. I've only ever watched it once - when they swapped the mother of a family of 10 free-loading, social security scum, with a posh, upper-class snob. You can imagine the carnage.



> I believe freedom for you, and for the Jewish dude and whomever.


So do I. I also believe in freedom of thought and expression.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

> So do I. I also believe in freedom of thought and expression


Yes, you are free to express yourself, of course. But sometimes it does become as ... just unnacceptable as those children throwing the Bibles on the floor.

The show definitely has an agenda. As much ludicrous conflict as possible. Of course. But it was real. Those families are indeed examples of REAL families ... extreme though they may be. I hate that show, because I think, "Oh Dear God, no wonder the world is such a disaster." THERE ARE such people.

As noted many times here, it isn't usually what someone says, it's HOW they say it.

That show is HORRIBLE. LOL. But terribly disturbing. So is "Super Nanny". Families really know how to screw up their kids. I still say it's a miracle that society functions as well as it does.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Tell me about it. There's something rather gruesome about watching this kind of TV. I rarely make it all the way through a program.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Martinelv said:


> I'd love to Cecil, I really would. But unfortunately I am not prone to sitting back and getting shafted by the continuing howling gale of religiosity and political (ethical?) correctness. I mean, can you imagine the uproar if someone dared to tell someone to put their bible/koran/torah away? I tell you, it would cause front page news.


Hence why I said stand up for your beliefs next time. If someone is going to be offended that's their problem, not yours. You have the right to read whatever you like.

But as for the situation that already passed, you can't change it so there's not much point getting angry over it.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

I haven't got any 'beliefs' Cecil!

But yes, you're right. However if it happens happen, there will be blood! I'll let it go this time though. Well, sort of. I've finished the book but I'm going to deliberately leave it out on trains, buses, and outsides mosques and churches. Perhaps I'll get arrested for religious antagonism; ah yes, a martyr for the atheistic cause. Of course, there isn't an atheistic 'cause', but there you go.


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

Martinelv said:


> I haven't got any 'beliefs' Cecil!


Well, certainly you believe that you should be "permitted" to read whatever you'd damn well like on a subway.

I can understand you momentarily getting caught up in the rush though, and almost forgetting to be outraged. The same thing happened to me once with this animal rights activist. He was heckling me on the street for money while i walked by and I told him I was busy and didn't have time to listen to his schpeel (I really way, not that that should be an issue...but in this case, I was late for a class). I went to get a coffee just before my class and on the way back he was like, "Oh yeah...real busy I see," as if I had just popped off to get a coffee and was leisurely walking around aimlessly on the street. I said something snippy to him like, "Yeah, I'm on my way to a class now. Is that all right?" But I should have been far more outraged. I mean, if someone wants to ask me for something, that's fine, but if I'm busy, I'm busy. I'm not obliged to explain why I'm too busy to listen to someone's manifesto. In retrospect, I should have told the little weasel to burn in hell and that I was rushing by so I could get home to beat my dog senseless. Alas, we Canadians are far too polite.

Anyway...I can't believe I missed this thread. Martin, I am completely on your side in this one. That's an outrage. You should be able to read whatever you like, say whatever you like, and think whatever you like. I'm getting all vicariously worked up now just rereading your long rant. I think that's totally disgusting.

And for the record, this...



> I was in London over New Year, and I was sorely tempted to say something to a Jew who was sitting opposite me, on the tube, reading the torah, nodding his head like a parrot and muttering under his breath, but I'm not offended by it, and my girlfriend (also an atheist) dislikes a scene, but I did think about it for the sake of balance.


...isn't racist in the least.

s.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

> And for the record, this...
> 
> Quote:
> I was in London over New Year, and I was sorely tempted to say something to a Jew who was sitting opposite me, on the tube, reading the torah, nodding his head like a parrot and muttering under his breath, but I'm not offended by it, and my girlfriend (also an atheist) dislikes a scene, but I did think about it for the sake of balance.
> ...


OMG I'll never live this down. I take that back. I was flustered. And Martin you DO believe in things. You have a way of looking at life, and that includes atheism.

I guess I do feel often you are like those children tossing the Bible on the floor. We can disagree, but for God's sake, there still has to be tolerance. Tolerance is tolerance. In theory the faithful should be tolerant of your atheism and vice versa, but it never seems to work out.

I'm sorry. OY.
D


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