# I recovered



## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

So can you.

My hypothosis on DP/DR.

1 After studying all of the papers I have been able to get over the years, my dealings with other sufferers and my own experience I strongly believe the conclusions being drawn and the research being carried out has not been and is not going in the right direction.

The symptoms of DP/DR and associated symptoms such as anxiety need to be viewed and treated separately. My hypothesis is as follows:

The point of transition from a normal state of thinking to DP/DR is caused by a micro seizure (possibly a one off occurrence in some cases) that opens a new neural pathway for processing information. This micro seizure covers all aspects of pre conditions that cause the micro seizure, whether the individual was anxious, stressed, meditating, taking drugs or had no other external trigger is of no consequence this is what has occurred.

The intensity of the resulting DP/DR is dependant on the strength of attachment to the new neural pathway in relation to the strength of attachment to the old one. DP/DR with or without anxiety is of no consequence they are totally separate conditions, the anxiety may have been pre existing and the trigger for the micro seizure, a very strong attachment to the new neural pathway will result in chronic DP/DR. In this case no anxiety or other emotions will be present at all although the individual will likely be concerned or troubled. In the recurring DP/DR (recurring micro seizures) in episodes the individual will be prone to high levels of anxiety. The anxiety caused originally by a fear of returning to or deeper into DP/DR...the anxiety disorder may then manifest into a number of different forms as is well documented in anxiety disorders.

DP/DR needs to be classified into two groups; chronic where no anxiety is present, with anxiety (by itself can not be chronic in definition). The treatments for these two groups need to be very different. In the case of chronic the individual needs to strengthen the attachment to the original neural pathway....drugs are likely to be not greatly effective although some may indirectly give the individual enough of a lift to re make this connection (I have done this and seen others manage this in many simple ways). In the case of recurring/periodic DP/DR with or without anxiety the drugs being tested such as Lamotrogine and Clonazepam have a high chance of success in preventing further micro seizures and therefore further episodes of DP/DR, Clonazepam in particular is likely to be effective in anxiety symptoms.

Happy to hear any comments.

Also happy to reply by PM etc

Good luck all, I did it so can you

JJ


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## never_giving_up (Jun 23, 2010)

JJ70 said:


> So can you.
> 
> My hypothosis on DP/DR.
> 
> ...


Hi there!

Some very interesting ideas. I have highlighted some text above that I would love for you to elaborate on. When you say "new neural pathway" are you suggesting that the sum total of our conscious experience with DP/DR is the result of just one neural pathway? I have to admit that I have little idea about how consciousness works so if you could refer me some sources (or just briefly explain yourself) that would be great.

With this theory in mind, how exactly did you weaken the DP/DR neural pathway and get back into the old one? Had never thought of it being like a micro seizure but the idea is very interesting nonetheless.


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

Neural pathways and cannabis (common trigger for DP/DR).

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/11/2924432.htm

More on neural pathways

http://www.whatisneuroplasticity.com/pathways.php

http://www.neuralpathwayrestructuring.com/home.html

Bit on seizures

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WDT-4GPW6JX-2&_user=10&_coverDate=09%2F30%2F2005&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=ca282c287abd1e0983f7a27eae133d33&searchtype=a

And how I strengthened my link with the old neural pathway.

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/24300-i-recovered-mostly/

Loads of good journals out there too, I'm not currently a paid up member of a lot of these sites.

Note on micro seizures everyone has them.

Note on the two manin drugs used in DP/DR both used in treatment of epilepsy, also note these drugs have been successful in treating people who have episodes of DP/DR...stops the micro seizure occuring.

Note these drugs have been far less successful in those with chronic DP/DR...seizure has already happened and thoughts already being channeled through a new neural pathway.

JJ


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## never_giving_up (Jun 23, 2010)

How is the idea of micro seizures actually useful for us in curing our DP/DR?

If there aren't any specific studies backing up this theory then I am not willing to accept it as true. I am extremely wary about how I understand this disorder because when I first experienced the symptoms (without knowing about DP/DR) I created my own mythology to understand it that caused me a lot more problems.


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> How is the idea of micro seizures actually useful for us in curing our DP/DR?


Very useful, it means that the use of lamotrogine, clonazepam etc could be very useful for those who have episodes and not chronic. It also means this is not very useful in those who are chronic. See my link on how I beat chronic DP/DR.



> If there aren't any specific studies backing up this theory then I am not willing to accept it as true. I am extremely wary about how I understand this disorder because when I first experienced the symptoms (without knowing about DP/DR) I created my own mythology to understand it that caused me a lot more problems.


Totally know where you are comming from been there.

Note I have a science degree and say this is a Hypothosis. I can't think of a single Journal I have read that this does not fit with. I can't think of anyones description of developing DP/DR that this does not fit with. Also when you are thinking of seizures don't regard this in terms of a grand mall seizure..just a mental switch like deja vu. Also the lack of research into this makes the current medical studies "very very weak indead".

Also all the my threads on this are positive and won't lead anyone to a lot more problems.

I wish you well, I've been there

JJ


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## never_giving_up (Jun 23, 2010)

JJ70 said:


> Very useful, it means that the use of lamotrogine, clonazepam etc could be very useful for those who have episodes and not chronic. It also means this is not very useful in those who are chronic. See my link on how I beat chronic DP/DR.
> 
> Totally know where you are comming from been there.
> 
> ...


If you're really confident about your theory you should write a paper on it and get in touch with some researchers. Would be good to see it investigated further.


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2010)

Nevergivingup asks some important questions.

JJ, your theory here, as long as it works for you is great, but I think there is a misuse of the existing literature and existing definitions in neurology. I have thought on and off that my DP/DR might be "some form of seizure activity" -- but being *STUCK IN AN AURA of a seizure.* But the more research I have done on auras they are not really the same as a DP episode or my chronic DP/DR.

I looked around and it is noted that "micro-seizures" aren't discussed much in the literature. A Google and a look at PubMed verified that. I would also say, it is not a real scientific term as it would get confused with "complex partial seizures" or "petit mal" seizures, or TLE (temporal lobe epilepsy).

Problems:
And this may be out of order, sorry:

1. The DSM -V in progress is already deeming DP/DR SECONDARY to certain psychiatric/neurological disorders *AND a separate disorder unto itself* -- that is a disorder than can be comorbid with other disorders. No one psychiatric patient is known to have really ONE disorder. If something is amiss in the brain it affects so many interacting functions it would be virtually impossible to not affect others. And never_giving_up actually made a similar point.

2. Because anticonvulsants help many here (myself included) that doesn't mean that we have some form of epilepsy. Medications for one disorder are used to help many other disorders. Lamictal, Neurontin and Effexor for example are used to help with hot flashes in menopause that are unbearable. So a woman taking Lamcital is taking it for a hot flash.

Also, anticonvulsants have a major anxiolytic effect/anti-anxiety. They are helping (in seizure patients) calm a "storm of activity" that can result in "absenses" to grand mal seizures.

From the article I read which goes back to 1976 indicating it is WAY out of date ... micro-seizures seem to be very early warning signs for someone who will ultimately develop full blown EPILEPSY.

Abstract in full:

*Neurol Neurochir Pol. 1976 Mar-Apr;10(2):121-5.
[Early diagnosis and prevention of severe forms of epilepsy]*

[Article in Polish]

*Boldyriew AI.*
Abstract

_*"Early diagnosis and treatment are the basis of prevention of severe forms of epilepsy.*_

In order to determine the beginning of the process the author studied 400 cases in which the duration of epilepsy ranged from several weeks to 3 years. The investigations demonstrated that epilepsy develops in subjects presenting certain premorbid symptoms and signs.

The "epileptic process" develops frequently as a result of past infections and craniocerebral injuries followed by residual neurological signs and cerebrasthenia.

Seizure attacks, if no additional releasing factors are present, are preceded by various clinically weakly expressed seizure phenomena. They include peculiar,very vivid dreams, sudden awakenings with partly obnubilated consciouness and a feeling of fear, abortive psychomotor and other seizure. The "microseizures" include also myoclonic twitches preceding sleep and during sleep, auras, brief viscerovegatative attacks, opercular symptoms, symptoms of dream-like states, twitches of isolated muscles without consciousness disturbances.

In 44% of cases asthenic symptoms were present in connection with microseizures. They served as background for development long-standing irritative foci manifesting themselves clinically with sluggishness of thinking and affect and compulsive features. Presence of these microseizures may suggest epilepsy long before appearance of typical seizures and may be an indication to beginning of treatment which may prevent the development of severe epilepsy. The syndrome of seizure-like microsymptoms makes it possible to recognize the prodromal stage of epilepsy and to change our views on its sudden onset."

PMID: 1264328 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Publication Types, MeSH Terms
Publication Types:


Microseizure, even in this out of date article, is in quotation marks. Again it is not a medical term as far as I can tell. It seems the definition is the prodromal phase that can warn of severe epilepsy is developing in an individual.

*One can have epilepsy and experience DP/DR in the AURA before the seizure begins, but not always, and it ceases afterwards. I know several people with seizures who have no clue what I talk about when I discuss my DP/DR.*

_*Research into this basically requires a medical research degree. At least M.D., then neurology, etc.*_

The top researcher, and individual I respect the most has compiled and created a ton of literature on DP/DR and there is no mention of "microseizure" as a cause, though a seizure theory can't be ruled out I suppose, but does not seem to be the case.

See: *Depersonalization: A New Look At A Neglected Syndrome* by Maricio Sierra, M.D., Ph.D. who has ton a few decades of research into DP/DR and studied existing literature going back to 1898 when it was first described by Ludovic Dugas. The book came out in 2009, and from the books out there, it is THE definitive book on DP/DR out there -- it is a Medical Textbook. My medical resident/psychiatrist is in training with an M.D. -- he plans (sadly) to go into research, but I also have a great therapist for coping. He read it and was very impressed and learned a lot from it. Other doctors at the university have been made aware of it through my therapist.

Also, see the work of *V.S. Ramachandran, M.D., Ph.D.*, a neurologist who has studied altered states of consciousness for years. He has written *Phantoms in the Brain* (about Phantom Limb experiences) and A *Brief Tour of Human Consciousness* which does address DP/DR briefly along with Cotards and Capgras syndromes (which are rare) but have some interesting clues into DP/DR.

You really need to read both books, especially Dr. Sierra's which is a Medical Text Book dedicatd SOLELY to DP. And it is as up to date as you can get. I try to only look at articles/books dated 2010/2009. And now with 2011 coming, I want articles dated 2010/2011.

I believe neurology will be the solution to understanding our disorder as well as in finding treatments/cures.

But DP/DR shows up in so many other ways -- brain tumor, head trauma, stroke, epilepsy, most mental illnesses, Borderline Personality Disorder, etc., etc. I feel your theory is indeed very speculative.

But I like your thinking. And I am glad you are well.


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2010)

And yes, I understand this is a theory, but it is eclipsed by other advanced theories. And DP/DR is still poorly understood. I do believe it is neurological -- no doubt. But so is deja-vu, and there is no real explanation for that either.


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> I looked around and it is noted that "micro-seizures" aren't discussed much in the literature.


Yes, i just used this as a simplified term, what I was referring too is a type of petit mal. Deja Vu is not proven to be a petit mall but is generally accepted.

Note: I am not claiming a strong relation to epilepsy, everybody has seizures - this does not make you epileptic.

Yes Auras are not the same as DP....agin I'm pushing an epileptic connection, although epilepsy is one of many things that can trigger DP/DR.

Current research is extremely flawed.

My hypothosis fits with all the papers you have listed. It was a detailed reply and I will reply to it in more detail later.

JJ


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2010)

JJ70 said:


> Deja Vu is not proven to be a petit mall but is generally accepted.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


I look forward to the more detailed reply.

1. Also, could you clarify the sentence about Deja-vu ... I have not seen it correlated with any type of seizure disorder, but I may be wrong. It was thought to be a visual perception "trick of the mind and of memory" but blind people have deja vu, so I'm not sure what you are saying.

2. I agree that research into DP is frequently flawed, yet on the other hand, there is a tremendous amount of astonishing research done in neurology that is bringing more and more to light on all mental illness.

3. You note papers, and I only listed one, and one terribly out of date. I'm curious if you have read Sierra's book or Ramachandran's books. Sierra is looking at both psychiatry and neurology, Ramachandran sees things purely through the eye of neurology.

The "fight/flight" concept of DP/DR makes far more sense to me -- especially as someone who has DP/DR probably closely related to chronic abuse since childhood, but for all I know I could have been born this way and had the bad luck of having a crazy family as well.

Bottom line is DP/DR is a perceptual distortion which can be recreated during mandatory surgeries on individuals -- the one way we can get into the brain. Certain areas in the brain are stimulated and an individual can have all sorts of odd sensations. They feel someone is lying underneath them on the operating table. They feel their "Self" has moved a foot to the left. Full out of body experiences have been recreated. DP/DR has been created, or experienced by individuals with brain tumors.

Those who have had DP/DR induced by certain Rx medications ... the strange one is minocycline? I always forget -- an anti-acne med ... do not continue to have DP/DR when the medication is removed. The same is true with so many people who have panic attacks or smoke pot and experience DP/DR. We have some predisposition to dissociate ... and this "ability"/curse I say goes on a spectrum in the entire world population.

It serves a positive purpose in survival, just as anxiety does, but it can go awry.

At any rate ... there is so much that is unknown about the BRAIN. It is so difficult to study as it is locked inside our skulls, and any research on humans is too risky unless it is mandatory. And of course animals cannot speak of their experiences. This wouldn't indicate flaws, it would indicate we still don't have the tools to properly study the brain, and it is the most complex organ in the body.

And the concept of "consciousness" which is really a HUGE part of DP/DR ... well that is a mystery that perhaps can never be fully understood. So we have an extraordinary strange experience with DP/DR, AND it is generated in the most difficult organ to research. But I have faith in coming decades of research.

In the meantime, your response to Klonopin is wonderful. It has been my miracle drug. I'm also on Lamictal. My DP/DR, though chronic is more stabilized than it ever was, though it takes the joy out of my life. My anxiety is worse, my depression is worse. And I have had various brain tests over the years and at no time does an EEG show any abnormal brain activity. But fMRIs on DP/DR patients (and I haven't had that) show clear malfunctions or "differences" in the brains of those w/DP/DR and those without.

Cheers


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2010)

JJ, see my PM to you. Also, here is an analysis from 2003 -- too old for me







-- of individuals with no mental illness or epilepsy to experience deja-vu. As I noted in my PM, I don't think we can summarily say that DP/DR is some form of eleptiform syndrome. IT COULD be, but I don't know anymore. My worst episodes ... I KNOW it is neurological. I suppose it could be "defined" as seizure activity, but I doubt it. It could be EEGs etc. can't read the low level, or no level of activity. But my DP is chronic. Non stop 24/7, 365 days a year, even in my dreams. It can get worse when I am under stress, and these days that's a lot of situations.

Interesting article on Deja Vu:

*J Nerv Ment Dis. 2003 Apr;191(4):242-7.
Demographic and psychological features of déjà vu experiences in a nonclinical Japanese population.*

Adachi N, Adachi T, Kimura M, Akanuma N, Takekawa Y, Kato M.
Adachi Mental Clinic, Kitano 7-5-12, Kiyota, Sapporo, Japan 004-0867.
Abstract

The authors investigated the frequency and correlates of déjà vu experiences in 386 healthy adult volunteers recruited from several areas in Japan.

Déjà vu experiences and related experiences were evaluated using the Inventory of Déjà vu Experiences Assessment. Déjà vu experiences were observed by 294 (76.2%) of the 386 participants.

Persons who experienced déjà vu were younger and more educated than persons who had not experienced it. There were no differences in the frequency of déjà vu experiences based on sex, hand preference, or area of residence.

Subsequent factor analysis associated déjà vu with precognitive dreams and remembering dreams as dream- and memory-related factors rather than with the dissociation-related factors of depersonalization, derealization, jamais vu, and daydreams or with mental activity-related factors such as paranormal quality and travel frequency. Results suggest that déjà vu experiences are associated with good memory function.

PMID: 12695735 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Again, in this normal population, deja vu is not associated with seizure activity, but cognition, age and education ... interesting. But I agree, people WITH epilepsy can experience deja vu. Also, in these healthy individuals deja vu experiences ARE NOT ASSOCIATED with dissociation which is interesting.

Your theory has been postulated in re: those WITH epilepsy. I don't know that we can go the other way around and say those with DP/DR have "small seizures".

And as noted, I have never seen my medication as a cure. It improves my quality of life, which is rather ... well I am not a happy person. But I have issues of abuse, abandonment, etc. and very poor coping skills that were hurt in childhood.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2010)

What makes me feel positive about research is that it is conducted worldwide. I think there is a concept that only some Western countries are studying mental illness. But I know China doesn't even believe in mental illness which is really disgusting to me -- doctors in China don't go into psychiatry as it is believed to be a "false bourgeois construct." Meantime mentally ill Chinese are locked in their homes for years. But it exists in every population on Earth, and there are researchers everywhere looking into all of these syndromes.

Abstracts show up from around the world. I really feel good about that. And anyone trying to sort this out is AOK in my book. This is just my POV from my own experience and my own research into all mental illness. I am no expert. I have to depend on experts I trust. They are out there. Some are tough to find.

I look forward to your response. Take your time.

And again my website http://www.dreamchild.net

For me, my coping skills were destroyed in childhood. It is amazing to me sometimes how much I have accomplished in spite of this -- both the abuse and the damned DP/DR in particular.


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

I have read your website in full today, it is extremely good. My hypothosis still fits in with everything you have written. Particularly the stuff on anxiety/panic......I have stated in my hypothosis that anxiety/panic or no anxiety/panic is not relevant in having DP/DR although this is a horrendous condition that I have also had to overcome.

Note by not relevant I mean that it has to be considered seperately, either as a trigger for DP/DR or a commonly co-existing condition. I believe strongly when considered as a co-existing condition this is usually caused by a short DP/DR episode or a deeper DP/DR episode when this happens you panic, panic attacks left untreated develop into general anxiety disorder.....which is horribe to say the least. (I have more on this).

Please also note although I reffer to seizures opening new neural pathways (or simply processing the information you would normally process through a different channel....or to put even more simply starting to think in a very different way...I am not proposing epilepsy as the cause.

Also do not cling to my comments on deja vu this was just meant as an example that just about everybody has seizures not just epileptics...I should have used a less controversial example such as myoclonic jerks (an involutary jerk/twitch of the leg etc).

I do not relate being in the state of DP/DR to that of seizure activity.....I would put forward a further hypothosis that when in DP/DR an EEG would show less activity in general.

I am still working on my answer in full for you. You gave a very large academic reply (with regards to a general forum reply) to my thread which requires a large answer.

Get well all.

JJ


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2010)

Don't worry about getting a full report on here. Ouch I have a hang nail on my thumb and it hurts. I digress. This statement from the IoP DP Research Unit page sort of puts things in perspective.

One thing I believe is that, in my case, having DP/DR as a very young person and not being acknowledged or comforted when I asked for help, set the stage for this to become chronic. Yes, it may have changed my brain in some way ... even the structures of certain areas of my brain. And because of brain plasticity we know there are some ways to "work around" malfunctioning or broken pathways.

Anyone who can fight to do that, and I think that is possible with CBT, in early stages of the illness definitely, and with vigilance to try to "let the feelings pass" when they sweep over you .. that can help.

Here are the existing theories on the IoP Site:

"There are many theories about what causes depersonalisation. It might be induced by overwhelming anxiety or an early traumatic event. In these circumstances, becoming detached from one's body may seem a useful means of coping, but in some people, the depersonalisation then may become autonomous and a chronic disorder. Neurological theories include a disruption in the parts of the brain that integrate incoming sensory information with our internal representation of the Self (the temporal lobes). A specific part of the temporal lobe, the amygdala, which is responsible for processing emotion, may be crucial.

Two of the Unit's completed studies using functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI) have shown significant differences in the way people who experience DPD and the way healthy controls process emotional stimuli and remember emotional words.

The Unit's research has also shown that people with DPD have a low skin conductance response to unpleasant stimuli: this suggests an inhibitory mechanism on emotional processing. Skin conductance is when the skin momentarily becomes a better conductor of electricity because external or internal stimuli are physiologically arousing and help create an emotional response: measuring arousal is an important component of measuring emotion.

Other studies of people with DPD have found evidence of disrupted feelings of empathy for others; differences in heart rates; and differences in levels of hormones that deal with stress.

There is not yet evidence-based treatment for depersonalisation. Over the years, in-depth psychotherapy, electroconvulsive treatment, antipsychotic medication and antidepressants have all been tested. Two of the Unit's recent studies have yielded promising results that are being further investigated: these involved Cognitive Behaviour Therapy and, in another trial, participants took lamotrigine, an anti-convulsant medication."

Interesting with me... I have too much empathy (with people in real life), lose my boundaries with others, then feel I shouldn't express what I need. So my experience of this is different. I would like to have been in some of these studies, but I believe you must be off all medications, and of course, I'm never close enough to a study.


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## never_giving_up (Jun 23, 2010)

Great site Oracle!


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## cris24333 (Oct 30, 2010)

so you have to start thinking like you used to and not depersonalized way
?


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## Jayden (Feb 9, 2011)

I'm glad you recovered but you need to come back and tell us "how" you recovered. You didn't really elaborate on that.

Please get back to us!

- Jayden


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