# Debate between myself and founder of Anxietycentre.com



## simonlebon (Apr 13, 2015)

For anyone that's interested here is a forum debate I had on anxietycentre.com between the founder, Jim Folk and myself (simonlebon). There are a few other posts in there, but the founder himself does come in to the debate.

I struggled with severe anxiety and depersonalization (still am to a much lesser degree) for almost a year before ending up in a hospital. I followed the anxietycentre methodology which is that anxiety can be fully conquered in all cases simply by relaxing the body and by less "anxious" thinking. That there is no biological "cause" for anxiety and that also it is not inherited. They are very much anti-medication, because if it's not biological at all, then who needs meds?

Well, fortunately for meds AND therapy, I am in a much better place now. Not 100% recovered, but not suicidal and miserable every single day. So in order to help any other people on that site who are beating themselves up for not being "strong" enough to over come this illness, I decided to post my experience and also challenge his assertion that there is no genetic link to anxiety/depression, which pretty much anyone in the medical community will tell you that it is, including NIH, NAMI and Cleveland Clinic. They may not have the genes mapped out completely , but they have done studies and some genes have been found that do contribute to anxiety/depression.

FYI: My very last comment was deleted from the thread shortly after for being "disrespectful". They also have locked the thread so no one else can add to it, and asked me not to start any further posts on the topic of genetics and anxiety until they can add "more information about it to their site". At least they kept it up, for now.

Enjoy.

*Genetics of anxiety and depression*

by *simonlebon* » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:50 pm

I learned a lot from this site and I think Jim does a good job in what he does, but I disagree with him when he said there is *NO* biological or hereditary cause of anxiety depression. The science just doesn't back that up. And my personal experience and the experience of others I know who have anxiety/depression/bipolar etc. who have parents etc. who have also had these same issues.

I think as time goes on and science learns more about our genetics etc. they will become more definite in the hereditary link. But just logically when you look at a human being, how would it logically make sense that the brain is the one part of the body that we don't inherit tendencies (or biological form) from? So, we can inherit blue eyes, but we can't inherit an inability to create enough serotonin etc in the brain to be happy? That just doesn't make sense. Every single cell in our body is inherited from our parents. And this is not a perfect world and we are not born with perfect genes.

Think of two people who go to war. Both of them have a fine upbringing, no abuse etc. etc. One of them develops PTSD and the other doesn't. The only logical explanation is genetics and that one person has a biological tendency toward anxiety/fear etc.

Behavior and how we were raised is *part* of how we get anxiety disorder, but it's not the whole story. It's called "nature and nurture". Jim is discounting the "nature" aspect completely by saying it's not inherited. I think it's very burdensome to tell everyone that comes to this site that their anxiety is *SOLELY* caused by their behavior and the way they think. That's a lot to put on someone, and it's just not true. If that were true, people like myself who are helped immensely and are able to regain their lives by taking a pill or two every day (that helps their brain chemistry), wouldn't get help from it. I didn't change my way of thinking. I took a pill.. and BAM! I feel better! MIllions and millions of people are out there living their lives because of these medications. The medications ALLOW THEM TO NOT WORRY! Because if your serotonin levels are in the gutter (again.. BIOLOGICAL!), you are going to worry more and think more fearfully!

So, it's both. Do what you can with your thoughts and behaviors, but it's not black and white. Life isn't black and white. And black and white thinking is actually a cognitive distortion. So , saying flat out "anxiety is only caused by worry"... that sounds a lot like black-and-white/all-or-nothing thinking to me. It's more complicated. There are shades of gray.

I'll continue with all the great things I've learned on this site, but I'll also continue taking my medications which have allowed me to make tons of progress in my recovery. In fact, the only reason I ended up on this site was because of that part of me, that prideful, perfectionist part of me, that thought I didn't need my medications anymore and tapered off. It was completely biological. I wasn't sitting around worrying about anything. I wasn't a worrier at all. Not until I got off my meds!

Here's an article that just came out this week on a study. 
"Scientists identify genes connected to wellbeing, depression and neuroticism"
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 100008.htm

Peace!

*simonlebon*

Posts: 35

Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:09 pm


 
Top​
·

·

*Re: Genetics of anxiety and depression*

by *teecee* » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:39 pm

This is a huge topic. Even the top mental health professionals argue about this all the time. I'm not sure i agree. It's a bit of a chicken and egg thing. I believe the most common cause of anxiety and depression is stress. I have had a good, normally happy and productive life, but at various times during extremely stressful times I've succumbed to anxiety and got depressed because of it. I believe everyone has their breaking point. For me it was not one major stress that sent me into anxiety disorder, but three to four years of relentless small stressors without relief that weakened me to the point where I became exhausted and felt that I had no way to solve my problems.

I think stress causes chemical changes in our body - too much adrenaline and cortisol, which plays havoc with other hormones and neurotransmitters, not just serotonin. Alcohol can help you stop worrying and lift your mood, so can valium and pain killers, but these all effect different transmitters. So the serotonin theory is very simplistic. There is even an anti-depressant now that reduces serotonin and people feel less depressed,

I have no family history that I know of with mental health problems. My parents were happy and productive and my brothers are all fine. As for serotonin, I tried pills and they made me worse. My initial experience was when I went to the doctor in 1990 with chest pains, sleeplessness and anxious thinking. He put me on Prozac and one morning I woke up to depersonalisation and intense panic. It was that experience that made me frightened of my symptoms. Anti-depressants had a key role in causing my anxiety disorder. I have tried other meds with similar side-effects. Yet an hour with a counsellor who can reassure you that you are not going crazy instantly lifts my mood.

I notice that when I rest, look after myself, try to be productive and contain my worries - my mood lifts. If I had a chemical imbalance, I wouldn't be able to change how I feel by changing how I think. If we can be reactive to our environment, it shows that we are not slaves to our biology.

The other problem I have with medication is that it tells us that we have something wrong with us, that we can't overcome by ourselves. This has the potential to turn us into victims and make us even more demoralised. I suspect some people are biologically low in serotonin, I spoke to my doctor about this. He told me that such people are depressed all of their lives, they don't normally present with anxiety - they have nothing to be anxious about because they believe their life is over. Their thinking is not so much "What if" thinking. Their symptoms are sleeping all day long, huge appetites and constant suicidal thinking. He said these people are a very small minority, the majority of people he sees present with what he calls anxious-depression. People like this are highly anxious, constantly obsessed with the state they find themselves in and very worried about what their symptoms mean and about the future. Because their lives are in so much chaos and they can't see a way out, they become depressed. Who wouldn't? He says that their problem is usually cortisol and adrenaline. He also believes that lifestyle changes are the best way to manage anxious-dperession.

It's so confusing as to what causes our suffering - and it seems really important to us to find out why. We get caught up in the cycle of worrying about our 'disorder' 24/7 not realising that our worrying is what is keeping the cycle going. Trust me if I could handle meds, I'd take them, so I have no problem with doing whatever you can to help you through a tough time. Ultimately though the only thing that can help us is are ourselves.

teecee

Top​
*Re: Genetics of anxiety and depression*

by *simonlebon* » Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:33 am

Yes, again it's not black-and-white at all. But my point is that for at least *some* of us, there is a biologically inherited component. For others, like you, it could have been completely circumstantial events that lead you to your breaking point. But for others who have a genetic predisposition to anxiety, those circumstances don't need to be near as many or frequent or severe to throw them into severe anxiety and panic and despair. So, we are all different... genetically! Someone like Jim (who I don't know if he has a family history of mental illness or not), was able to pick himself up and endure this crap over years and years, but that doesn't mean everyone can do that. Because we are all different! Some of us are not as "strong" as others. We all have different characters, that are also influenced by genetics. That is the brutal reality of life.

I play guitar. Steve Vai is one of the greatest guitar players there is. If Steve Vai created a website that said.. "Hey, I was able to become an amazing guitar virtuoso, you can do it too!". Is that realistic? No, because he has a natural, born, genetic talent to be able to play the way he does and all of the other factors it took for him to be able to get to that point of mastering his craft. How is mastering anxiety/depression any different? It's not. It's a skill that also involves how that person is genetically made up that allows them to be able to get to that point. It's not as simple as "do all this stuff I did and you will see the same results". Maybe for some, but definitely not for all. I am proof because I followed the AC method and worked with an AC counselor for about 7 months (after already suffering derealization for 4 months, so 11 months total suffering) and ended up suicidal and in a hospital. The doctors said.. guess what.. "you gotta do what you gotta do, and if that means taking meds, that's what you do". That's why they make the medications. If everyone was strong enough to overcome this stuff without meds, the huge need, market and track history of effectiveness of the meds wouldn't exist. And yes yes, not EVERY person is going to be helped by them, but the majority are helped by them. Millions of people take them. If they didn't work, those millions of people wouldn't take them.

And the bottom line is we are not all strong enough to get out of anxiety hell ourselves. AC teaches a black-and-white, everyone can do this without meds. So , by telling everyone that, what happens when that person feels like they have done everything they can do for months and months and are still feeling horrible? They start to look at themselves as a failure. They aren't strong enough. And all of that leads to self condemnation and despair. You've failed because you should be strong enough to do this, but it's not working. It can actually become very self destructive. I went through it. Because the bottom line is that some of us are not strong enough to turn the titantic ship of our brain chemicals and nervous system that are out of whack due to environmental and genetic factors. Factors that we can maybe help *some*, but not enough to still be able to lead a good life. When sh*t hits the fan we should all be drawing every possible resource we can to get better. And if after a period of time of reaching your breaking (give up) point , which is DIFFERENT for everyone, and you are in despair and can't see a way out, I believe you are only hurting yourself by not at least trying medication. It's a matter of self compassion. By denying yourself any relief and looking at meds as meaning you lost or weren't strong enough, that's in a way very sadistic. Give yourself a break. You are only human, and in this life you aren't going to be able to get through every situation on your own without any help. We are all in this together and we need each other, and medicine is a part of humanity created for humanity. It's not the evil thing that it is sometimes made out to be. End the stigma. The heart, the brain, the liver... they are all organs. We need to end the stigma that the brain is somehow some magical organ that cannot be biologically "ill".

You are dependent on air. You are dependent on food. I am dependent on contact lenses/glasses to see. Diabetic people are dependent on insulin. WE LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE WE ARE DEPENDENT ON ALL KINDS OF STUFF!!! Accept that!

I love this guy Douglas Bloch on youtube. He's been through major depression etc. for years and years ,been hospitalized many times. He has been through the worst of the worst. In this video he talks about antidepressant and about his experience with them. It's very realistic. They actually didn't work for him, but he recognizes how they have helped so many others. That's a REALISTIC view of life. He talks about that feeling of "I don't want to be dependent on medication". It's perfect. So true.






*simonlebon*

Posts: 35

Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:09 pm


 
​
*Re: Genetics of anxiety and depression*

by *tecee* » Sat Apr 30, 2016 7:13 pm

Hi Simon
Please don't get me wrong, I don't believe there is anything weak about taking meds if they work for you. I would take them in the drop of a hat if I could tolerate the side-effects. If there's a medication that can ease your symptoms then refusing to take it is not brave, but masochistic. Unfortunately for me, anytime I tried these meds I felt worse, my anxiety symptoms increased. I think what I was saying is that I believe to truly recover and have an anxiety-free life, we need to work on our belief systems and our thinking. And I think Jim is very correct here. I notice when I am not worrying, my anxiety decreases. When I am not worrying my depression goes away. So I have recognised that my problem is my worry and I need to overcome that. I know by changing my thinking I can effect my body chemistry. By reducing my stress and taking control of the things in my life that I have been avoiding I can feel better. So it shows me that my thinking is the problem. Is body chemistry causing my negative, fearful thinking - or is my negative thinking causing my body symptoms? I don't know, but the only thing I can do that helps me is challenging the way I think. When we are caught up in depression or anxiety we catastrophise every situation. I really believe that we can overcome our issues by acting the opposite way to what our anxiety and depression wants us to act. It takes time though and lots of patience and many seeming failures. Lots of people have been helped by meds, lots of people have been helped by therapy. Lots of people have been helped by changing their lifestyles, lots of people have been helped by spirituality. In my case, I believe that my anxiety and depression is a result of fearful thinking patterns that I developed as a kid in a very abusive school situation. It had nothing to do with my family, they had no idea about how my teachers were treating me. Over the years I developed the idea that the world is dangerous if you don't follow the rules. I know that this is untrue intellectually, but my brain has been programmed to believe that making mistakes can lead to punishment. As an adult I overcame this, but at times of exhaustion, stress and weakness, the old fears sneak through the cracks. I can't see how medication can cure my childhood experiences, but I can see how a better understanding of the false messages that I received as a kid can eventually help me deprogram this unhealthy belief system. If meds can help you through a rough patch, by all means do what you need to do, but I really believe that it is more helpful to see them as tools in the battle, just like rest, exercise, diet and sleep. The real battle is overcoming the habits and behaviours that lead us into the anxiety trap. 
Interesting topic.
Cheers

tecee

Top​
·

·

·

*Re: Genetics of anxiety and depression*

by *simonlebon* » Sun May 01, 2016 3:19 pm

I agree that meds are a tool in the toolbox and not the sole answer to recovery, but I believe for many people (maybe not you), that they are a crucial tool for recovery. And I just feel like AC does not teach that. It teaches many many many good things, but then unfortunately tries to steer people away from this valuable and possibly life saving tool. That was my point of this entire thread, and if you know much about AC, it's true. Maybe not in your case, but in my case, and I'm sure others who have passed through this site.

Peace!

*simonlebon*

Posts: 35

Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:09 pm


 
​
*Re: Genetics of anxiety and depression*

by *jimfolk* » Wed May 04, 2016 11:29 am

Hi simonlebon,

I understand your comments and confusion on this issue. Anxiety disorder can seem like an out of control animal, which can make it seem like it is beyond our control and biologically or genetically caused. But I assure you, it isn't. There is no biological or genetic basis for anxiety disorder. In fact, the 'chemical imbalance' theory was put to rest in 2011. That's why drug manufacturers don't market their anti-anxiety and depression products that way any longer...because it never was true. Many independent studies had proven the 'chemical imbalance' notion false.

As for a genetic cause, there is no 'anxiety gene.' Research has shown that genes don't cause thinking patterns. Anxiety is all about thinking in an apprehensive manner. Thinking in an apprehensive manner is a choice, which can be changed through practice. Genes don't decide what we think, we do.

Furthermore, the study of epigenetics has shown that behavior influences gene expression rather than the other way around. Numerous researchers have come forward and proven that "DNA is not destiny." Again, if anxiety disorder was caused by genes, coaching/therapy wouldn't help&#8230;yet it does. In fact, CBT has recently been determined as the 'Gold Standard' for anxiety disorder resolution. If anxiety disorder was caused by a biological problem or genes, CBT would be ineffective.

Yes, medication can help reduce anxious thinking for some people. But so can a number of things, such as alcohol, going for a walk in the country, deep relaxation, talking with a friend, and so on. But this doesn't mean anxiety is caused by low alcohol levels, lack of walking, not relaxing enough, or not spending enough time with friends. The point is, anything that can help a person distract himself from anxious thinking will work...which proves anxiety is caused by thinking apprehensively and not by anything else.

We aren't advocates of medication because medication doesn't solve the behavior problem. That is the work we must do. The other concern we have with medication is the long-term adverse effects. Only now is research highlighting the long-term ill effects of anti-anxiety and antidepressant medications. Since anxiety is caused by apprehensive thinking, that is the area that needs to be addressed. Taking something to help reduce anxious thinking doesn't solve the behavioral problem.

This is not to say that making healthy behavioral change is easy or quick. It often isn't. But all of us can do this work with the right information, help, and support.

We don't frown upon those who take medication. We understand that anxious behavior and hyperstimulation can be a very difficult mix. And, without healthy coping skills, medication can seem like the only option. But, to overcome anxiety disorder for good, doing the right work is required. And again, all of us can do this work. That's why we emphasize it&#8230;so that people can eliminate issues with anxiety for good. And that is our goal- to help people accomplish that as we have!

NOTE: A recent study by Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine found that psychotherapy for depressed rats shows genes aren't destiny.

"The environment can modify a genetic predisposition to depression," said lead study investigator Eva Redei, a professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine. "If someone has a strong history of depression in her family and is afraid she or her future children will develop depression, our study is reassuring. It suggests that even with a high predisposition for depression, psychotherapy or behavioral activation therapy can alleviate it."

*jimfolk*

Site Admin

Posts: 552

Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:39 pm


 
Top​
·

·

·

*Re: Genetics of anxiety and depression*

by *simonlebon* » Thu May 05, 2016 9:42 pm

Jim,
Again, I appreciate what you do here and I have learned a lot on the site. I have learned a lot from many different places, including doctors, and have come to the realization that for some people, anxietycentre "skills" are simply one tool in the toolkit, not the single answer to recovery.

I do agree someone who is just experiencing anxiety for the first time would be wise and fortunate to find this site to help calm them and learn coping skills etc. But my point here is that for many people, these techniques alone may not get them where they need to go. They didn't for me. I may just be one person speaking out here, but I am a person, and I lived it. I practiced skills diligently for months and ended up wanting to end my life because I was so miserable. So what would you say to that situation? I think in your quest to help people, your rigidity may at the same time be doing some harm.

The facts are that after 11 months of dealing with anxiety (which turned into depression), I became suicidal and ended up in a hospital. Myself, along with many other people in that hospital (that I have become friends with) were given medications, along with therapy and the *two of them together* allowed us to find our way out of the hospital and out of suicidality. So either your method of treatment is not universal enough to work for everyone, or I "did something wrong" or "wasn't strong enough". It can't be both. You see, unless you can concede that CBT (behavior) alone won't work for EVERY case, you have no other position than to put the blame on the patient/member of your site.

And as far as the negative repercussions of medications, that applies to just about every medication for every illness in the world. Hardly any come without negatives. You weigh the pros and the cons. For me, not being so miserable that I wanted to kill myself was a pretty big pro.

On the genetic issue, the study you posted actually contradicts your statement that "There is no biological or genetic basis for anxiety disorder". That study is completely about genetics and how they predisposed some rats , GENETICALLY , for depression. This is the study you cited says: "When rats*genetically bred for depression* received the equivalent of rat "psychotherapy," their depressed behavior was alleviated." - See more at:http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2016/03/psychiatry-depressed-rats-nature-nurture.html

How can they "genetically breed rats for depression" if there is no genetic link? Yes, I agree genes are not destiny, but they certainly are a factor, and the study you cited proves that. They genetically bred rats for depression. And with the complexity of the genes involved (they know it's not one single gene), someone could have a lesser or a greater genetic predisposition.

All reputable sources of science out there will say anxiety is a COMBINATION of genetics and environment. Just like it does for depression, bipolar, schizophrenia etc.

*Cleveland Clinic*
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/services/neurological_institute/center-for-behavioral-health/disease-conditions/hic-anxiety-disorders
"Studies also have shown that anxiety disorders run in families, which means that they can be inherited from one or both parents, like hair or eye color. In addition, certain environmental factors-such as a trauma or significant event-might trigger an anxiety disorder in people who have an inherited susceptibility to developing the disorder."

*NIH (National Institutes of Health)*
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/anxiety-disorders/index.shtml
"Researchers are finding that genetic and environmental factors, frequently in interaction with one another, are risk factors for anxiety disorders."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181683/
"Anxiety disorders belong to the category of complex diseases for which intense research efforts are focused on the identification of genetic susceptibility factors. Emerging tools and technologies for genetic analysis will provide the groundwork for an advanced stage of gene identification and functional studies in anxiety and related disorders. More than 1.4 million single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) have been identified in the human genome. This collection should allow the initiation of genome-wide linkage disequilibrium mapping of genes influencing anxiety in the human population. The duplication of part of chromosome 15 is probably a major genetic factor of susceptibility for panic and phobic disorders, and its identification may have important implications for psychiatry and health."

*NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness)*
https://www.nami.org/Learn-More/Mental-Health-Conditions/Anxiety-Disorders
Scientists believe that many factors combine to cause anxiety disorders:
• Genetics. Some families will have a higher than average numbers of members experiencing anxiety issues, and studies support the evidence that anxiety disorders run in families. This can be a factor in someone developing an anxiety disorder.
• Environment. A stressful or traumatic event such as abuse, death of a loved one, violence or prolonged illness is often linked to the development of an anxiety disorder.

Those are just a few. There are many more out there. I would akin the stance that "There is no genetic link to anxiety" to the "There is no human link to global warming" argument. 99 out of 100 experts in each of those areas would disagree with those assertions. Hopefully at some point you will choose to update the site with the latest scientific evidence, and somehow take a more comprehensive stance on the treatment of anxiety disorder to help those suffering with this horrible condition, whether that's better nutrition, CBT or medications. All used in combination if necessary. It's what has worked for me. I just firmly believe the "anxiety is simply caused by worry" is far too simplistic of a stance to take on such a complex disorder, in complex people, with complex lives, pasts and genes.

Respectfully

*simonlebon*

Posts: 35

Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:09 pm


 
Top​
·

·

*Re: Genetics of anxiety and depression*

by *jimfolk* » Fri May 06, 2016 6:02 am

Hi simonlebon,

Thank you for your comments and candor.

Five years ago, you would have found almost all medical and mental health sources say that anxiety and depression were caused by a 'chemical imbalance' in the brain. You could have also found many, many sources citing research supporting that theory. Why? Because that was being taught in medical and mental health education at that time. Was the theory actually true? No.

From 1987 until 2011, when the theory was officially put to rest, we refuted that theory as we knew it wasn't true (independent research and practical evidence disproved it long before it was officially debunked).

This same principle applies to the 'genetic' cause theory. If you notice, all of those who claim genes play a role are only speculating, as they did with the chemical imbalance theory.

Let's look at the links you posted:

"Studies also have shown that anxiety disorders run in families, which means that they can be inherited from one or both parents, like hair or eye color." - Cleveland Clinic

This statement is a supposition based on circumstantial evidence. There is no research that proves genes are the link. In fact, research done on identical twins disproves this claim, as identical twins experience vastly different medical and mental health outcomes. If genes did play a role, BOTH identical twins should experience the same outcomes, but they don't. Why? Behavior determines gene expression and not the other way around.

The reason anxiety runs in families is due to learned behavior passed on from an anxious parent(s) and not because of a genetic link. In this example, the researchers arrived at the wrong conclusion, most often because they don't understand the root cause of anxiety - behavior - so they are trying to find a biological or genetic one.

"Researchers are finding that genetic and environmental factors, frequently in interaction with one another, are risk factors for anxiety disorders." - NIH

There is no research that proves genes cause anxiety. This again is speculation. Sure, genetic expression can respond to anxious behavior, but genes don't cause anxious thinking. We do. It's a learned behavior.

"Anxiety disorders belong to the category of complex diseases for which intense research efforts are focused on the identification of genetic susceptibility factors." - NCBI

"Complex diseases!" Really!? Anxiety isn't a disease. But here again, sure, there is ongoing research to try to understand anxiety from a biological standpoint. But as your quote shows, they are trying to find the genetic link and not that they have found one. You'll see over the next five years that through the study of epigenetics, these types of notions will be disproven. Behavior causes gene expression and not the other way around.

"Genetics. Some families will have a higher than average numbers of members experiencing anxiety issues, and studies support the evidence that anxiety disorders run in families." - NAMI

Again, this is a circumstantial conclusion, not hard science. As I mentioned, anxiety runs in families not because of genes, but because of learned behavior passed down from an anxious parent(s).

Of course our genes are going to respond to how we behave. But genes don't cause anxious thinking. Their expression can respond to it, however.

Just as how the chemical imbalance theory was debunked, the genetic cause for anxiety will be debunked as well, since it isn't true.

As for the research that shows genes aren't destiny, keep in mind their research is done on animals, then interpretations are made. There are many ways scientists can stimulate certain types of behavior in animals, but that doesn't mean those ways are the cause. For example, injecting an animal with a high dose of cortisol can cause an anxious reaction, but that doesn't mean cortisol is the root cause of anxious behavior.

As for why we can suffer so much with anxiety, and why it seems stubborn to turn around, we are going to be addressing this in detail shortly. This will also explain why medication can work for some people. But medication is not a cure, since there isn't a biological or genetic cause for anxious thinking. Anxious thinking is a behavior. It's only when we change the behavior will we experience lasting results.

As for the genetic link, we also have an article coming that will explain this further.

In the meantime, here are a few things to consider:
• Since environment can cause the development of issues with anxiety, that disproves the genetic cause.
• Since we can overcome issues with anxiety merely by replacing unhealthy behavior with healthy behavior, that disproves a genetic or biological cause. If anxiety was caused by genes, the only way to eliminate it would be to have a genetic transplant.
• Since CBT has been deemed the 'Gold Standard' for anxiety disorder resolution, and not gene replacement therapy, that also disproves the genetic cause theory.

While there are many sources that claim the genetic link theory, there is no anxiety gene! All claims are based on speculation, not fact. Until these sources recognize the true cause of anxiety disorder, they will continue to look for biological and genetic ones and make assertions accordingly.

In time, however, the truth will become commonplace, as was the case with the chemical imbalance theory. In the meantime, one needs to take the 'genetic cause theory' and any allusions to it with a grain of salt.

Jim

*jimfolk*

Site Admin

Posts: 552

Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:39 pm


 
Top​
*Re: Genetics of anxiety and depression*

by *simonlebon* » Fri May 06, 2016 5:31 pm

Jim,
I appreciate your replies as well. It's an interesting, and very important topic.
I think this article in psychology today sums up our differences very well.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/saving-normal/201604/what-you-need-know-about-the-genetics-mental-disorders

The biological reductionists act like the secret of psychiatric disorders is written in the genetic code. They are "mindless"- dismissing the crucial role of environment in how our brain develops and of psychology and social context in how it functions.

The environmental reductionists go to the opposite "brainless" extreme-arguing that a psychiatric disorder is a direct reflection of life stresses and dismissing the crucial role of biological vulnerability, particularly for the severe mental disorders.

The point here is that it can be BOTH! You are an environmental reductionist, on the side of "dismissing the crucial role of biological vulnerability". I am saying it can be both, which is what 99% of every expert in the field out there will tell you, and all of my previous citings back up. And again, I have to comment on the irony that you teach against anxious thinking, or *congnitive distortions* (negative filter, catastrophizing, fortune telling), and at the same time your argument is very much exemplifying the cognitive distortion of "black-or-white thinking". The world isn't black and white. There are many shades of gray. And anxiety disorder is definitely no exception. That's the reality.

I don't see how the genetic debate can go much further, because you are basically brushing aside research by NIH, NAMI etc. the most authoritative groups in mental health, as nonsense, or of no value because they have not found a 100% cause of anxiety from a genetic standpoint. There is no 100% proof of God either, but plenty of people seem to believe in Him. I agree the truth will become commonplace in time as more of the research that has already been done pointing to a genetic link becomes only greater and more detailed than it already is now.

On the chemical imbalance issue. Do I have this correct? By "put to rest" you are referencing one article ("Psychiatry's New Brain-Mind and the Legend of the Chemical Imbalance"), in one journal (Psychiatric Times) by one professor (Ronald Pies) back in 2011? I hardly think that one doctor's article can put an entire theory to rest. That's a pretty weak amount of evidence you use to back up a very bold claim. It's not even a study.

Also, if anyone hasn't taken the time to look into AC.com's supporting evidence, here it is below. You will also notice that within this article Dr Pies does mention a genetic link (not in anxiety specifically, but other mental illnesses). Again, ironic.
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/blogs/psychiatry-new-brain-mind-and-legend-chemical-imbalance

Dr Pies also makes this statement in the article, which contradicts your approach:

In short, we cannot afford to view our patients' afflictions in the balkanized terms of "mental" vs. "physical", "mind" vs. "body", "psyche" vs. "soma". *Neither can we afford the luxury of supposing that only one type of treatment-medication or psychotherapy*-will be effective for the illnesses we treat. On the contrary, the best available evidence suggests that each modality, or their synergistic combination, may be effective.

Finally, you didn't address my personal situation of ending up in the hospital and then finding my way out of suicidality through the combination of medication AND therapy (see Dr Pies above!). By side stepping that, it seems you are validating that you hold no other position than to put the blame on myself that I did not follow your techniques well enough, or long enough to find recovery? That is the glaring problem here with your stance and how you sell AnxietyCentre. It puts all of the weight on the sufferer, because there's only one way to recovery. They either do this "right or wrong". And if they diligently try it your way and don't find recovery, but instead despair, how can they look at themselves as anything but a failure? Because anxiety is just all in our thinking and completely in our control. But you know as well as I do that so many things in this life are not in our control. And we many times need outside help to get through. Whether that be through other people, or medications, etc.

I thank you Jim for the content on your site. I think you mean well. But cognitive techniques are just one piece in the puzzle of recovery for many of us. For others, it's not enough. And unfortunately there are some big assumptions being made on your part which are definitely not supported by the medical community, or the major mental health associations out there and their research. Some of those assertions caused me a lot of unnecessary suffering and confusion.

My hope is that my experience will help anyone else out there who has been on this site struggling with this disorder for months or years and are tired of carrying the immense weight that they are solely responsible for overcoming this disorder with no medical help (because according to AC.com anxiety is never a medical/biological illness) Stop black-and-white thinking. Stop trapping yourself. Stop persecuting yourself. Taking medication for an anxiety disorder is no different than taking medication for diabetes or chronic migraine headaches. It doesn't make you weak. You can find relief. You can get your life back. Your way to recovery and the cause of your illness, like anything else in life, is not black and white.

*simonlebon*

Posts: 35

Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:09 pm


 
Top​
·

·

*Re: Genetics of anxiety and depression*

by *Laura68* » Fri May 06, 2016 9:25 pm

Simonlebon, I just want to say, that you are soooo wrong. If you would spend all this precious time reading the Bible instead of "researches" of mental illness, you wouldn't be so confused. I don't know if you are Christian or any other believe, but I will ask God to help you. When I first time found this website in 2008, I was suicidal. The only difference was that I didn't want to take any medication. I chose to tolerate and suffer as long as I needed to recover. I chose to what to believe. I was in good shape for six years, but then I relapsed in 2014. My choice was AC again. It takes long time to recover, but it works every time. Thank God for this website. I am so against medication! I am a business woman and I see so many of my clients take different pills and how it affects them physically and mentally. We have a choice. Please, chose the healthy one. I don't know your age, but don't ruin your health with those horrible drugs. 
Sorry for the clumsy English, it is my third language. Don't think that I am limited, uneducated person. I have two master degrees. I am happy and content, but I do suffer from my learned behavior. I am still working on my underlying factors( so many of them). I think, if you still keep writing such a big posts and trying to convince Jim that he is wrong, then you still have a hope to get well without medication. I will pray for you, I really will. 
Love & God bless!

*Laura68*

Posts: 56

Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:47 am


 
Top​
*Re: Genetics of anxiety and depression*

by *jimfolk* » Fri May 06, 2016 10:33 pm

Hi simonlebon,

Once again I appreciate your comments and candor.

I understand why you believe anxiety disorder could be both, but it isn't. Not only have we personally experienced and overcome anxiety disorder ourselves, but we've also worked with enough people over the years to ascertain the exact cause of anxiety disorder and depression. There is no mystery to its cause, and it isn't biological or genetic.

As I mentioned, identical twin studies have disproven the genetic link notion.

"I hardly think that one doctor's article can put an entire theory to rest."

His published admission did end the 'chemical imbalance' theory. Shortly after that publication, ALL pharmaceutical companies dropped their promotion of the chemical imbalance theory. Additionally, they admitted that the chemical imbalance theory was to be used as a metaphor only and never intended to be taken as a true cause. So indeed, Dr. Pies's publication ended the chemical imbalance notion once and for all (not to mention the mountain of independent research that disproved the theory).

To be clear, we've never stated that all mental illnesses are caused by behavior alone. Our comments are for anxiety and depression, not for more serious mental illnesses.

"Finally, you didn't address my personal situation of ending up in the hospital and then finding my way out of suicidality through the combination of medication AND therapy (see Dr Pies above!)."

As for your specific situation, I could explain it to you, but we are going to be addressing this in upcoming additions to our materials. I believe once you have a better understanding of why this happens, it will make more sense to you.

This is not to say that behaving anxiously or in a pessimistic manner doesn't cause biological consequences, such as hyperstimulation and its adverse effects on the body and altered gene expression. We've been saying this all along. But correlation is not causation. And this is also not to say that the results of overly stressful, anxious, and/or pessimistic behavior can't be profound. They can be. But again, anxiety and depression are not caused by a biological or genetic problem. They are caused by styles of unhealthy behavior.

The good news is that all of these negative changes can be reversed when a person makes behavioral change!

I appreciate your passion on this subject. But I assure you, anxiety disorder and depression (and many others) are not caused by a biological or genetic problem. This is why CBT is the Gold Standard for anxiety and depression resolution and medication isn't.

"Your way to recovery and the cause of your illness, like anything else in life, is not black and white."

Actually, it is black and white. While medication can diminish symptoms for some people, it doesn't eliminate issues with anxiety. That in itself demonstrates that unless a person deals with their anxious behaviors, anxiety will persist no matter the drugs taken.

We don't believe people are weak for taking medication to stabilize things. Since an overly stimulated body can present a significant challenge, it's understandable to want relief. And if a person is having difficulty containing when the body is overly reactive, it's natural to want help until things stabilize. Sometimes it takes a number of tries before we get the hang of containing and passive acceptance, especially when the body is behaving like a wild animal (due to hyperstimulation's adverse effects, not because anxiety is caused by a biological or genetic problem). As I said, we'll be explaining this in detail in upcoming additions to our materials.

Until you have a better understanding of this, I suggest we put this discussion on hold.

Jim

*jimfolk*

Site Admin

Posts: 552

Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:39 pm


 

*Re: Genetics of anxiety and depression*

by *simonlebon* » Sat May 07, 2016 11:55 am

Jim,

I will look forward to your "upcoming writings" and I really do hope that you will be able to back up your assertions with actual studies and evidence. More than a single article/statement by a single doctor.

Laura- I will pray also for you that you are able to use your own mind for your own research and not simply take the words of one person or one website as gospel. Btw. Science/thinking/medicine and God are not mutually exclusive. God gave us brains to use. You should not chastise someone for using theirs.

Thanks


----------



## Zed (Jul 25, 2015)

Interesting discussion.. I'm going with Jim on this though.

The way I look at this is... life's a bitch sometimes. Everyone, no matter what their genetic makeup is will have awful periods in their lives where they'll be depressed or overly anxious. Think of how we are when a loved one dies or when a child is severely ill or when an earthquake wipes out their town? Life's just plain shit sometimes, and whether you've got all the associated genes or not, there's going to be periods when we feel awful.

Whilst going through those inevitable tough times, we've got a choice - which route are we going to take to feel better? Do we take some pills, or 'work' through it (whether it's talking to family, friends, counsellors or therapists etc), or do we stick a gun in our mouths or we could choose to stick a needle in our arm? Whilst all of these can 'work', at least by working through the issues that feed the depression or anxiety, and resolving them, we're building the emotional strength that's required for the next tough time - and there WILL be a next time, don't worry about that!. We need to grow emotionally to cope with what life throws at us. Avoiding problems doesn't solve them and it doesn't grow mental strength either. We stagnate.


----------



## Xerei (Feb 17, 2010)

tl;dr


----------



## simonlebon (Apr 13, 2015)

Zed said:


> Interesting discussion.. I'm going with Jim on this though.
> 
> The way I look at this is... life's a bitch sometimes. Everyone, no matter what their genetic makeup is will have awful periods in their lives where they'll be depressed or overly anxious. Think of how we are when a loved one dies or when a child is severely ill or when an earthquake wipes out their town? Life's just plain shit sometimes, and whether you've got all the associated genes or not, there's going to be periods when we feel awful.


Zed, no surprise at all that you are going with Jim, because you are anti-medication, an enviornmental-reductionist, and it supports your position. I totally get that. And you have the right to your opinion, like JIm. Albeit, an opinion that isn't supported by the latest science and experts in the field.

But what you describe here with "situational distrubances" that everyone can go through doesn't really argue against my point at all. Of course regardless of genes life can suck at times, but what I am saying is that you can be genetically LESS able to "work through it" without extra help. No good doctor gives someone a vial of pills and then says this will solve all of your problems. It's the combination of the two , therapy and medicine that is the gold standard out there for anxiety disorders and depression. Your example here is very black-and-white. Like Jim. Anxiey/depression is ALL THE SAME...just work through it and EVERYBODY CAN DO IT without meds if they REALLY want to! So naive. And so much a position that continues on the stigma of mental illness.

I've been where you're at in your stance on meds, but you haven't been where I'm at (yet). I don't know what your family genetic makeup is or your family history of mental illness, so maybe you can get through this without meds. But everyone has their breaking point (again, probably something to do with genes as well), and when shit hits the fan, it actually takes MORE courage to admit you aren't strong enough, that you need some different form of help to get through what you are going through. So please don't give me the whole everyone who takes meds is just hiding from their problems and can't possible also be "working" through their problems at the same time. Again, black-or-white thinking. Cognitive distortion alert!!!

But back to my main point on this entire thread. Genetics. If you disagree that genetics don't play a part, then you are simply against all of the latest science and experts in the field. They all agree genetics play a part. NIH, NAMI, Mayo Clinic, Cleveland Clinic, I could go on and on. So if you want to keep denying the fact that some people have LESS of an ability to get through anxiety/depression than others, and more of a predisposition (probably most of us on this board), then go ahead, but you are on the wrong side of the science. I'm going with the experts in the field, and most importantly doing WHATEVER it takes to get better, regardless of my own ego and pride, which is the source of someone refusing to take meds in the midst of great pain and suffering.

Peace !


----------



## Zed (Jul 25, 2015)

Autonomic Space Monkey said:


> Anxiety is one of the sypmtoms of Seasonal Affective Disorder, which is not a psychological disorder. Anxiety is a symptom of Dysautononia, which is a disorder of the ANS (Autonomic Nervous System), & is obviously not psychological either. There are also other non-psychological ailments that can cause anxiety.Therefore anxiety is not always caused by thoughts, fact. Anyone who believes that it is always caused by thoughts is plain & simply ignorant, & as a sufferer of both of the aforementioned conditions, I have absolutely no time for these narrow minded morons.


Anxiety is anxiety. Period. Now I suppose you're going to tell me there're different types of anxiety?

Sorry to be the first to inform you but, anxiety's a natural part of life and it always has been, and it always will be...

If we keep listening to all the 'experts' in the field, I don't think there'll be one of us on this earth who hasn't got some kind of disorder. They're even labelling natural emotions as some kind of disorder these days.

If you have no time for 'these narrow minded morons'.. find something else to do.


----------



## Zed (Jul 25, 2015)

simonlebon said:


> Zed, no surprise at all that you are going with Jim, because you are anti-medication, an enviornmental-reductionist, and it supports your position. I totally get that. And you have the right to your opinion, like JIm. Albeit, an opinion that isn't supported by the latest science and experts in the field.
> 
> But what you describe here with "situational distrubances" that everyone can go through doesn't really argue against my point at all. Of course regardless of genes life can suck at times, but what I am saying is that you can be genetically LESS able to "work through it" without extra help. No good doctor gives someone a vial of pills and then says this will solve all of your problems. It's the combination of the two , therapy and medicine that is the gold standard out there for anxiety disorders and depression. Your example here is very black-and-white. Like Jim. Anxiey/depression is ALL THE SAME...just work through it and EVERYBODY CAN DO IT without meds if they REALLY want to! So naive. And so much a position that continues on the stigma of mental illness.
> 
> ...


Speaking of black and white... Where did you get this idea I'm anti medication? I'm not anti medication at all. I believe meds have their place and I've used meds myself. You just read a whole lot of BS into what I said. You've obviously only put this thread up to argue your point - which obviously not everyone agrees with. Get used to it.. not everyone's going to agree with you. Life's like that.

And again.. I don't disagree genetics plays a part in this. Show me where I said that? Or where I even alluded to that? How can we have a civilised discussion if you read all this into what was actually said?

And because I supposedly said 'genetics doesn't play a part in this' (which I didn't), you feel the right to accuse me of 'simply being against the latest science and experts in the field'. Well there's a beautiful piece of black and white thinking if I ever saw one! Your whole last paragraph is a joke and is irrelevant to anything I said. In fact a whole lot of your post is not relevant to anything to said...

And you have the audacity to accuse me of cognitive distortion! Mumma Mia!

Here's a little hint... read what people actually write before you start responding.

Before I used to take my aviation exams, we were always reminded of 3 important things,

RTFQ - Read The Fucking Question!

UTFQ - Understand The Fucking Question!

ATFQ - Answer The Fucking Question!

Maybe you should try that one day before you respond to posts..


----------



## simonlebon (Apr 13, 2015)

My entire post on AC.com was that genetics play a part in anxiety. I posted this entire thread and your EXACT response was "I'm going to go with Jim on this". Ummmmm..... Wtf? If you are "going to go with Jim".... you are saying *THERE IS NO GENETIC LINK*. Follow your own advice and read the post! I won't flip out and go dramatic like you did with all the profanity to try and make a point. So before you say you are "with" someone, you better know what THAT person is saying. Jim says *THERE IS NO GENETIC LINK*. What part of that don't you understand?

And you continue to contradict yourself. Your exact statement:

"Do we take some pills, or 'work' through it (whether it's talking to family, friends, counsellors or therapists etc), or do we stick a gun in our mouths or we could choose to stick a needle in our arm?"

If that isn't anti-medication , what is? Wow. That's sure a funny way of saying you are ok with medication. You can either take pill OR work. WTF is that? That's a big fat "OR". As if both can't be true at the same time. Figure out what the hell you believe and start writing it in plain english instead of being slippery/slimey and saying different shit in every other post. At least I'm consistent.


----------



## Alex617 (Sep 23, 2015)

Anyone who says there is no biological factor here is an idiot. It's already been shown that stress can lead to expression of new genes that cause depression and anxiety in mice and humans. Brain imaging and dissection in suicide victims shows consistent abnormalities. People who are perfectly healthy can develop severe mood disorder and personality changes with brain damage. Heck one of the earliest study of psychology involved a patient who had a steel rod shot through his skull. He went from being a nice and patient person to having an explosive temper and lack of inhibition. Myself I have been the guinea pig of enough self experimentation with drugs (legal and not so legal) to know how mood can be altered biochemically.

I also have a shit load of experience with Buddhism, CBT, understanding how thoughts affect basically everything in your life. Except there's fuck all you can do if you wake up and for whatever reason you are locked in to an anxious or depressive state. You can choose how to REACT to these states using your thoughts, but you can't actually magically think away anxiety and depression. No serious meditator/buddhist/therapist would tell you otherwise.

You must look in to both thinking patterns AND the biochemical aspect. We are after all biological creatures, our thoughts ARE biochemical reactions. Think of our bodies as hardware and our mind as software, if any of of these is malfunctioning then the system will not run smoothly.


----------



## simonlebon (Apr 13, 2015)

Exactamundo!!! But in the end, AnxietyCentre caters to the person who has found themselves "trapped" in their anxiety and freaked out, and at the same time wants to hear that they can get out of it all without any medicine, and that there is no genetics involved... so "you just need to relax and think happy thoughts and it will alllllllllll be better". Hell, that's what attracted me so much to it! But when as you said , you are "locked" in that anxious state that you are BIOLOGICALLY trapped in, then it starts to get ugly. Because you have bought into this idea that you can get over it without meds. I went through hell to find the truth of it all and realize that recovery for me took BOTH the thinking/cbt and the medical help. Just super annoying to me that anxietycentre pushes this model as fact. I learned a lot from them, but it came at a heavy price, because I had bought into some things that just aren't true.


----------



## simonlebon (Apr 13, 2015)

This is huge when celebrities come out and speak truth, helping to end the stigma!

http://www.etonline.com/news/188251_kristen_bell_reveals_longtime_battle_with_anxiety_and_depression/


----------



## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

^^as if that entitled cunt who's had everything in her life given to her on a platter by being a good looking girl knows what real, crippling anxiety feels like


----------



## Allez (Apr 10, 2013)

Anxiety has more than one cause.

Some anxiety comes from dysfunctions that do not correct their selves (think type 1 diabetes and other genetic diseases). The person cannot help this without external resources (like diabetes patients need insulin). This is a case where medication will be useful.

Some other causes of anxieties can be helped with stress reduction, CBT, change in environment, eating better (you are what you eat), sleeping better etc.

Some are a combination of both. The problem is: How can you tell what the cause of your anxiety is? What current test is there, that will be able to tell you the cause of it? Will they eventually have a test that says "oh look, they have that set of genes that makes them overly anxious."

Unrelated to OP, but relevant to anxiety in general:

Another thing to add is the underestimation of being persistent. You cannot give up on things so quickly. You need to see them through to full manifestation. Imagine if a tree seedling gave up upon seeing all of the other fully matured trees around it. It's roots would never be deep, and would easily be blown away by the slightest wind.

On the other hand, if you have a diseased seedling from the start, and no matter the effort, the tree is bound to be shitty... it's kind of fucked (as far as being a healthy tree). That is the harsh reality of life, and coming to terms with that mentally and emotionally can be difficult for some, considering a lot of parents shelter their children from way the world actually is.

To feel anxiety sometimes is part of the normal human experience and should not be averted at all costs (hard lesson learned).


----------



## CharlieFreak (Nov 19, 2012)

Midnight said:


> ^^as if that entitled cunt who's had everything in her life given to her on a platter by being a good looking girl knows what real, crippling anxiety feels like


I hear you, but imagine having that type of life, and realize that you spent every minute basing your self esteem on validation. I bet she struggles a lot. If she had no support, she might be a mess. It's pretty sad to me.


----------



## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

CharlieFreak said:


> I hear you, but imagine having that type of life, and realize that you spent every minute basing your self esteem on validation. I bet she struggles a lot. If she had no support, she might be a mess. It's pretty sad to me.


I couldn't give less of a fuck. Being an attractive woman in this day and age is like living life on god mode. It's the white-knight part of you that's thinking that.

You'd be better of saving your sympathy on people who are ugly / disfigured / impoverished / suffering injustice. The biggest worry on that girls mind is choosing her next male model boyfriend.


----------



## simonlebon (Apr 13, 2015)

Midnight said:


> ^^as if that entitled cunt who's had everything in her life given to her on a platter by being a good looking girl knows what real, crippling anxiety feels like


Regardless, you have to give her credit for having the guts to come out and talk about something that so many people try to hide. I'm not going to think less of her just because she's had success in her life.


----------



## simonlebon (Apr 13, 2015)

Carl said:


> Some are a combination of both. The problem is: How can you tell what the cause of your anxiety is? What current test is there, that will be able to tell you the cause of it? Will they eventually have a test that says "oh look, they have that set of genes that makes them overly anxious."


 Hopefully someday! I think medicine is going to be more and more personalized as time goes on. At least it should be because we are all so unique. Of course there is no current test to say "you have xyz" genes. Well, I take that back. I did actually get my DNA through 23andme. You can download your raw DNA after you sign up and do the saliva. Then you take that file and you can go online and there are multiple places that will give you your methylation MTHFR genetic results and mutations. I have the COMT mutation, which has been linked to a lower overall tolerance to stress (higher anxiety).

This is just ONE SNP though. There are probably hundreds or thousands could be linked to anxiety. It's a "complex" disorder.


----------



## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

simonlebon said:


> Regardless, you have to give her credit for having the guts to come out and talk about something that so many people try to hide. I'm not going to think less of her just because she's had success in her life.


0 credit. You think telling people you have anxiety is in some way an achievement? Just lol, I tell total strangers I have bad anxiety on a regular basis.

Anxiety is shit but it is causal, I don't buy that it comes out of nowhere. Mine is caused by facial disfigurement. Hers? No idea. But it's nothing to be ashamed of regardless.


----------



## Allez (Apr 10, 2013)

I read folinic acid can be helpful with methylation disorders.

Might be worth experimenting with, it's not very expensive and available online.

http://www.emed.com.au/anxiety-and-the-mthfr-gene/

They might as well call the 'mthfr' gene the motherfucker gene.

"Folinic acid is far from a cure-all, people with a double mutation may need to take vitamin B12 in combination with folinic acid for a more noticeable effect as there may be other pathway disorders that need to be addressed."

"Deficiencies of B6 and zinc are associated with a wide range of emotional and psychiatric problems. Nervousness, extreme irritability, anxiety, depression, short-term memory problems and explosive anger have all been linked to pyroluria.

A large percentage of patients with psychiatric disorders such as schizophrenia exhibit high levels of pyrroles. Alcoholics and emotionally disturbed children also tend to have an abnormally high pyrrole count."


----------



## Allez (Apr 10, 2013)

"Pyroluria is managed in part by restoring vitamin B6 and zinc.

The type of replacement therapy is very important as both nutrients must be provided in an efficiently absorbed form.

Vitamin B6 is available in several forms. The activated form of B6 is the most effective as the body does not have to convert it, making it more bioavailable. This activated B6 can be found in Thorne P-5-P (activated B6) supplement.

A zinc liquid is the most bioavailable and will be absorbed the quickest. Zinc liquid drink can be used to replenish zinc levels.

Other nutrients may assist in pyroluria include:

*Manganese* - This vital nutrient is depleted when zinc is taken at the high levels necessary for treating pyroluria. Manganese is necessary for the metabolism of certain proteins; it is also important to joint development and neurotransmitter production.

*Magnesium* - Taking B6 in large amounts can deplete magnesium levels; adding magnesium can reduce irritability and hypersensitivity to light and sound.

*Niacin (Vitamin B3) *- This nutrient is necessary for the production of tryptophan, which in turn is necessary for the production of serotonin. Taking niacinamide helps to speed the pyroluria recovery process.

*Vitamin C *and* Pantothenic Acid* - These nutrients help to rebuild adrenal glands that have been exhausted from coping with the ongoing tension caused by pyroluria; taking them alongside zinc and B6 allows Pyrolurics to overcome the weakness and fatigue they often feel.

Food sources and nutritional supplements containing copper should be avoided as they can decrease the absorption of zinc."


----------



## simonlebon (Apr 13, 2015)

Lots of stuff can be "helpful" with methylation. Unfortunately you can experiment with all kinds of supplements and still not get where you need to go. I tried it. I actually saw a naturopathic dr who tried to help me before I ended up in the hospital. Too little, too late. That's when you have to pull out the big guns and just take the meds!

I did the pyroluria test thing as well. I did about every friggin test out there. Probably some truth to all that and some pseudoscience. We are so far behind on really understanding the brain and neurochemistry.



Midnight said:


> 0 credit. You think telling people you have anxiety is in some way an achievement? Just lol, I tell total strangers I have bad anxiety on a regular basis.
> 
> Anxiety is shit but it is causal, I don't buy that it comes out of nowhere. Mine is caused by facial disfigurement. Hers? No idea. But it's nothing to be ashamed of regardless.


You're also not a celebrity coming out in front of the entire world and millions of people and being judged/knocked by angry people on a dp/dr forum  Just a LITTLE different. Not saying it's an "achievement", but it's real and it's honest. Certainly nothing to dog her about. And people who do this do help the stigma aspect of mental illness. Not sure how you don't understand that, but whatever.


----------



## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

simonlebon said:


> Lots of stuff can be "helpful" with methylation. Unfortunately you can experiment with all kinds of supplements and still not get where you need to go. I tried it. I actually saw a naturopathic dr who tried to help me before I ended up in the hospital. Too little, too late. That's when you have to pull out the big guns and just take the meds!
> 
> I did the pyroluria test thing as well. I did about every friggin test out there. Probably some truth to all that and some pseudoscience. We are so far behind on really understanding the brain and neurochemistry.
> 
> You're also not a celebrity coming out in front of the entire world and millions of people and being judged/knocked by angry people on a dp/dr forum  Just a LITTLE different. Not saying it's an "achievement", but it's real and it's honest. Certainly nothing to dog her about. And people who do this do help the stigma aspect of mental illness. Not sure how you don't understand that, but whatever.


You are a whiteknight, of course you would say that.


----------



## Allez (Apr 10, 2013)

What supplements did you try and for how long?


----------



## Slinky (May 12, 2016)

tl:dr

You are making your DP worse


----------



## simonlebon (Apr 13, 2015)

Carl said:


> What supplements did you try and for how long?


I still take D3, magnesium, fish oil and multivitamin. I will stick with those long term.

Others I did were Hydroxy B12, Probiotics, Phosphatildylserene, DHEA, Tribulus, NAC... there were probably more. I did all of those for several months.


----------



## dddad;kndal; (Dec 17, 2021)

Lets talk about 20 of the most common and maybe a little bit surprising symptoms of physical anxiety. A lot of people think that anxiety is all in our heads that it’s just worry and doesn’t necessarily have an effect on our bodies. And yeah, that can be true in some cases, and the worry can be a really big piece of things, but the physical symptoms can also be significant, and I think people sometimes underestimate how significant the physical symptoms can be. So this article is not medical advice. This is just meant for educational purposes


----------

