# Drugs, cause or the trigger? (Oh and regrets)



## veredavid (May 6, 2007)

I read that a lot of of the "DP/DR users" (-: onset was under the influence of one drug or another.
For me its the same, first time was LSD mixed with some pot, (seems so silly now), now this was 7 years ago, it came ant went later without drugs.
I dont know if it even makes a difference but I keep on wondering if the drugs are the creator of this state or just the trigger of something already buried inside. 
So I'd love the hear how you think of the role drugs plays in our state.

It seems that if I tend to believe the drugs were the trigger its easier for me, (you know its not my fault, its good that it surfaced) but if I think of drugs as the sole cause... I run in blame circle of how I messed up my life, how there is no cure for this, etc...

Your thoughts are appreciated (-:


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## 17545 (Feb 14, 2007)

es.


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## brandon is not taken (Mar 29, 2007)

I mostly agree with tigersuit, under most circumstances drugs are a trigger. But some times they can be a cause, after long term heavy use.


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## 17545 (Feb 14, 2007)

r.


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## Guest (May 9, 2007)

A trigger is a cause.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

It's a trigger not a cause. I mean millions of people around the world every year take psychedelic drugs such as LSD, psilocybin and MDMA multiple times but they never have any problems with these drugs. Hell psilocybin even helped my dp/dr when i was on it and sometimes for days after. Maybe it's because that i was born with dp/dr and brain fog that im abit different but who the hell knows.

Anyway i think there's already a fault somewhere in the brain. What is the fault we don't know. But if these drug's actually caused dp/dr everyone i ever went to high school with would have dp/dr now.


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## Guest (May 9, 2007)

Drugs are just not worth the gamble. If you pull the trigger, you caused it to happen... if you hadn?t had pull the trigger, it wouldn't have happened... simple as: "The trigger is a cause".

Just be aware the trigger is that of a Russian roulette?s revolver.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

Id have to disagree with you darren for me atleast they where well worth the gamble. I had a hell of a time when i was on drug's and i will include alcohol in there as well. I think my life is better now for having tried psychedelics, pot and dare i even say alcohol even though the last one nearly killed me in the end.

Most drug's arent as dangerous as they are made out to be and psychedelics especially arent. Psychedelics are as about as safe a group of drugs as your going to get. Just because some people on this board got their dp/dr from them doesent mean that they actually cause dp/dr.

This is a dp/dr board afterall and it hardly represents the general population. So no they are not like russian roulette at all in my view.


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## Guest (May 9, 2007)

=O! you?re disagreeing with Darren?! =I!

Yeah that?s fair enough? again we go back to the quote ?each to their own?, I?ve try weed and coke and neither do it for me (well weed really chilled me out once, which was splendid!), so at the moment I don?t rate drugs as being worth while, though If I were to take LSD and enjoy it, I would agree with you, although I don?t want to risk it =).

I had a chat with a nurse who was on a placement at the place I volunteer, I told her that I had tried weed and then she went on and on about how many ?victims? have gone into ?ward 36? due to drugs? you gotta see it to believe it.

Our views may be different, although I respect yours because ?you.are.da.man? I know you know a awful lot about meds and drugs? so there?s going to be some truth to what you say =).


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

Aww thanks darren that last part made me feel all warm and fuzzy.

Anyway ya coke is shit by just about everyones standards except those poor cokeheads and weed is not for everyone. A large percentage of people just do not like the effects it gives. I like weed but only under certain circumstances and i havent smoked it in years now actually. Mainly because the quality has gone down alot.

Alot of people end up in hospitals and rehab due to drugs but id have to say i have seen more people have bad reactions and make total wrecks of their lives due to alcohol then to any illegal drug. The only drug ive ever done anything stupid on or freaked out on was alcohol. The stuff damn near killed me. But for all that i don't regret using it because i had alot of good times. It's just at the end the bad started to far outweigh the good.

As for illegal drug's ive never had a problem with them. Especially psychedelics i always loved those.


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## Guest (May 9, 2007)

Aww your welcome pal )Gay hugs(? lol

You do have a point when it comes to alcohol; people forget you can OD on the stuff and gain yourself a nice bit of alcohol poisoning. Which I?m sure thousands of people die every year due to it (unlucky). There should be set limits on alcohol although people wouldn?t like that idea because they need to ease their ?stress? and this is the main root problem? people are over worked and over stressed so it?s no wonder they turn to drugs *sniff_sniff*? teehee =P


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## 17545 (Feb 14, 2007)

m.


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## flipwilson (Aug 19, 2006)

This is an excerpt from Daphne Simeons book Feeling Unreal regarding drugs as triggers or cause.(pg209)

"This is a tricky question, since a trigger is not the same as a cause. We now know enough to say that, without doubt, use of particular drugs triggers the onset of DPD in a substantial portion of people. We also know that typically onl certain drugs can do this-marijuana, hallucinogens, ecstasy, and ketamine being the main culprits. We also know, of course, that the large majority of people who use these drugs do not ever become depersonalized even if they have "bad trips" and experience great fear and anxiety during the intoxication. So, for some people with DP, drug use seems to be a necessary, but not sufficient, factor for its onset. Two more caveats come to mind regarding both the "necessary," and the not-sufficient. Although a drug may have been the necessary ingredient for the onset of a particular Dp episode, this does not mean that the same person may not have become DPD later on in their lives, without using drugs, for some other reason.

..some people with drug-induced dp have great trouble overcoming the guilt and regret over their drug use and the sense that they brought on their own misfortune in a way that could have been easily avoided. Yet, we have seen some people with dp, especially those who get it in a serial episodes and in between are free of it, who can have one episode triggered by a drug and another episode triggered by something different, like severe stress."

To further this point, i have a cousin who has done every drug you could think of many times over including the same joint that put me into this state, that same joint was only my second drug experience ever. Hes fine, Im not. As cruel as that irony is it shows that drugs dont cause anything, its more whats inside of us that is triggered by the drug.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

[One] said:


> We actually watched a video on LSD in drug class and they did tests that showed LSD caused brain damage to this one guy. They compared his brain with someone who didn't use LSD.


 That was in drug class and there not going to tell you that guess what guys? There isint a single shred of evidence to show that LSD causes brain damage. That is a fact. LSD has not been shown to cause any type of brain damage at all.

You would have to be pretty goddamn gullible to believe what they tell you in drug class of all places. They feed you all sorts of propaganda. You might as well get your info from freevibe.com. I used to go on that site for a good laugh but now it just pisses me off because they think some people are stupid enough to believe that shit.

Then again if people are that stupid who the hell cares about them.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

[One] said:


> No they didn't say that, the video I watched did. It is a video from the 90's or something. I think NBC news did a special on it. The guy did LSD about 500 times he said and they did scans of his brain and compared them. Then the guy said that there is evidence that LSD causes brain damage.


 500 times is abit much and you are asking for HPPD if you do LSD that many times. Jesus i don't think even Jim Morrison did that much acid although Tim leary more then certainly did that much and more.

NBC does specials on alot of things and so do alot of the other big networks but alot of it is just fear mongering. They whip up hysteria about a certain drug then show a goddamn brain scan that they got from god knows where to say this is what happens when you take this drug.

I remember when MDMA first hit it big in north america the media came out with so much bullshit about it that it wasent even funny. They said that it could put holes in your brain, was horribly addictive, is often cut with heroin and etc, etc. But now suddenly MDMA isint so bad in fact it's being studied for use in treating post traumatic stress disorder among other things.

But the fact remains there is not one shred of scientific evidence saying that LSD causes brain damage.


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## veredavid (May 6, 2007)

[quote name="flipwilson"]This is an excerpt from Daphne Simeons book Feeling Unreal regarding drugs as triggers or cause.(pg209)
*
Thank you so much for sending this*, I needed to read it. 
My next step is to order the book...


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

[One] said:


> If someone does it 500 times and has brain damage then any amount of times is possible brain damage, it just won't be as noticeable.


 There still is no scientific evidence that doing it 500 times will cause brain damage of any kind. There simply is no hard evidence to back up the claim that LSD at any dose taken as many times as you want causes brain damage at all.

And saying that if a person takes LSD 500 times and has brain damage and another person who takes it any amount of times will get brain damage does not make any since. It's like saying that a person who has a few beer's every now and then will have brain damage like a person who drink's a 24 pack a day. It's flawed logic.


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## 17545 (Feb 14, 2007)

a.


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## suz (Mar 26, 2007)

Tigersuit said:


> comfortably numb said:
> 
> 
> > But now suddenly MDMA isint so bad in fact it's being studied for use in treating post traumatic stress disorder among other things.
> ...


Don't do it. It can really mess with you, especially the sledging. It's like A*DP. Nooooooooooooooooo. : )


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

Trying ecstasy while you have dp/dr is probley a bad idea i wouldnt recomend it. If you don't have dp/dr though there's really not much harm in it.

Ive been meaning to do some myself but there's nobody around now that i want to try E with. E is not a drug you do on your own you really have to have someone else tripping with you. All psychedelics are like that really there no good unless you have someone to trip with.


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## suz (Mar 26, 2007)

comfortably numb said:


> If you don't have dp/dr though there's really not much harm in it.


I don't want to sound like a preacher but we have to be real, there is harm because you just don't know for sure what will be in the pill you buy. An almost-cousin of mine died after taking an ecstacy tablet, it was laced with something nasty.

I know people are going to take drugs regardless but just make sure that anything you buy is from someone you trust.

*motherlyness over*


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## Guest (May 11, 2007)

comfortably numb said:


> If you don't have dp/dr though there's really not much harm in it.


Truly foolish.


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## 17545 (Feb 14, 2007)

= :wink:


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

[One] said:


> You are unbelievable.


 You wouldnt believe how unbelievable i am. But atleast im not someone who believes in all the garbage that programs like DARE and all the other crap that they try to scare you with in school and on the TV. I make up my own goddamn mind on subjects such as this and thats it.

The fact is that pure MDMA is pretty goddamn safe and if you don't have dp/dr there really is no harm in trying it. Now an occasional person gets a bad E pill laced with something horrible like PMA or some other poison but this is very rare.

What suz said is true as well it's a big help to know the dealer your getting the stuff off. Of course this would not be a problem if MDMA was legalized and sold in a regulated way but with some closed minded jerks around that isint gonna happen for awile atleast. Although people are finally opening there eyes abit to that fact.

I think if MDMA and most other drugs where legalized they would cause a hell of alot less problems then alcohol.


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## Jack30 (Apr 27, 2006)

This is all so ridiculous.

DARE and all that "crap." God forbid we try to keep kids from doing drugs.

C-Numb...You insult human intelligence. No drug is "safe." Period. Sure, someone can get away with experimenting. But, for instance, there are a million heroin addicts in the U.S. alone who got away with nothing. They're utterly f*cked.


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## Guest (May 11, 2007)

Why are you obsessing about the cause of 'it all'. Don't you see how you are screwing yourself...

Eric


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

Jack30 said:


> This is all so ridiculous.
> 
> DARE and all that "crap." God forbid we try to keep kids from doing drugs.
> 
> C-Numb...You insult human intelligence. No drug is "safe." Period. Sure, someone can get away with experimenting. But, for instance, there are a million heroin addicts in the U.S. alone who got away with nothing. They're utterly f*cked.


 I wouldnt encourage a kid to use drugs at all but i would tell them the truth about drugs. Feeding them lies like we have been doing for years has obviously not helped so why not try the truth for a change?

The way these programs work it basically says that all drugs are just as harmful as the next. When in fact thats complete bullshit and the kids find out sooner or later anyway. Once they find out that pot and magic mushrooms or E wasent as bad as it was made out to be they sometimes think hey i guess meth and crack isint so bad either.

If they think they are being lied to about one thing why wouldnt they think they are being lied to about all the rest? I think it's a total insult to human intelligence to think people will swallow the bullshit that programs like DARE and all the rest feed them. They do more harm then good.


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## Guest (May 11, 2007)

If you think E and pot aren't dangerous. You have some seriously screwed up logic.

I hope you change your views, soon.

Eric


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

jesusmyangsthasabodycount said:


> If you think E and pot aren't dangerous. You have some seriously screwed up logic.
> 
> I hope you change your views, soon.
> 
> Eric


 I wont change my views as they are my own and i am entitled to them just as you are entitled to yours.

No drug is completly safe but as far as dangerous drugs go E and pot are at the bottom of the list of dangerous drugs. Scientists agree as well so im not alone.

I smoked pot for about 7 or 8 years on and off. I never suffered any negative effects from it whatsoever. In fact it seemed to help my dp/dr and it certainly helped my brain fog but i was born with all this so my case may be different.

There are many people on this site who developed dp/dr after taking these drugs but it was bound to happen anyway really. The drugs only acted as a catalyst to something that was already waiting to happen.


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## suz (Mar 26, 2007)

Your logic on this subject really is a bit skewed cn; you normally speak a lot of sense but I find it very difficult to agree with anything you've said in this thread.

Do you accept that alcohol is harmful? And cigarettes? Personally I think they should all be within the same sort of category.

'Handle With Extreme Caution' should do it.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

suz said:


> Your logic on this subject really is a bit skewed cn; you normally speak a lot of sense but I find it very difficult to agree with anything you've said in this thread.
> 
> Do you accept that alcohol is harmful? And cigarettes? Personally I think they should all be within the same sort of category.
> 
> 'Handle With Extreme Caution' should do it.


 Well i speak whats on my mind so that may be why it seems abit skewed. Ive always given my own opinion on matters and i never really care who agrees with me and who doesent. Thats just me i guess.

I do accept that alcohol is harmful as it damn near killed me over the course of about 3 years. Id personally rate it as a worse addiction then heroin. I was a total drunk and at my worst i was downing atleast a bottle of whiskey a day or a 12 pack of beer. Sometimes both. I don't regret my experiences with alcohol though because inspite of all that i had a hell of a time too. But i know i can never go back to it.

As for cigarettes they are killing me as we speak. It's been one drug thats been a total bitch to kick the cravings just will not stop. I was quit for years and i still went back to the stupid things. On top of all that smoking does not get you high now what kind of a evil drug is that?

So ya id definatly rate alcohol and cigarettes as about the worst of the bunch.


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## Jack30 (Apr 27, 2006)

C-Numb...Yes, your opinion is your opinion.

But honestly. What would you expect DARE to do? The truth. Sure. Pot is less dangerous than crack. You think they don't make that very clear, albeit not explicitly, in programs like DARE? When DARE shares stories about people who have overdosed on or died from a laundry list of drugs, is it not well-implied that these substances are particularly dangerous?

We are talking about delivering a MESSAGE to kids. We are talking about kids who still believe in Santa Claus here. And you spew this subjective nonsense about the truth?

All the truth a child needs is that drugs can kill you.


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## 17545 (Feb 14, 2007)

e?


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## suz (Mar 26, 2007)

comfortably numb: I just want to make sure that you know I wasn't 'digging' at you then. You really do make a lot of sense to me most of the time.

Doesn't mean we'll see eye to eye on every subject though. Got to agree though; cigarettes are PROVEN to kill, so why the feck are they legal?! Makes noooo sense! : )


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## 17545 (Feb 14, 2007)

L!


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## suz (Mar 26, 2007)

Tigersuit said:


> Lots of legal things are proven to kill:
> 
> Cars
> Skydiving
> ...


Don't get me wrong; I agree. The world is a fooked up place.


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## 17545 (Feb 14, 2007)

[qll?


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## suz (Mar 26, 2007)

Jee(z) you're so 'Americana'. It's criminalise, not 'ze' 

And yeah, maybe they should, then no one would know what to do at 'high school' (which I'm sure is your college??)

They should criminalise swimming to; just in case you drown...

There has to be risk in life, as long as it's 'informed risk' then I think it's ok. I guess that's fair enough.


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## 17545 (Feb 14, 2007)

ly.


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## suz (Mar 26, 2007)

*shakes hands with Tigersuit* : )

I also believe that football should be criminalised over here, seeing as my team is very likely to be relegated on Sunday, boo.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

suz said:


> comfortably numb: I just want to make sure that you know I wasn't 'digging' at you then. You really do make a lot of sense to me most of the time.


 Ya i know you werent digging at me so don't worry about it. Basically all i was saying that people should be allowed to make up their own minds about things such as this and be told the risk of doing drugs. If they still want to do them fine. They should be told the truth too and not propaganda and lies.

I fully know the risks im taking when i take a certain drug or smoke a cigarette but i still do it mainly because i want to and that's that. It's my choice and noone elses.



> There has to be risk in life, as long as it's 'informed risk' then I think it's ok. I guess that's fair enough.


 I couldnt have said that one better myself.


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## Guest (May 12, 2007)

[One] said:


> All of these deaths would mostly be accidents and murder...


Amen.


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## closetome (Nov 16, 2006)

comfortably numb said:


> Trying ecstasy while you have dp/dr is probley a bad idea i wouldnt recomend it. If you don't have dp/dr though there's really not much harm in it.


How can you say that? I did E for the first time and it sent my brain raicing into a psychosis. Your brain can actually an have alergic reaction to E....

And timohty leary is boring! In all his interviews i've seen he never says anything interesting.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

closetome said:


> How can you say that? I did E for the first time and it sent my brain raicing into a psychosis. Your brain can actually an have alergic reaction to E....
> 
> And timohty leary is boring! In all his interviews i've seen he never says anything interesting.


 Now did you have a bad trip which can happen on E but is uncommon or a real psychotic break? There is a major difference between the two. One is just unpleasant the other can be potentially dangerous.

Ive only known one guy to have a lasting psychosis from a psychedelic and it happened after taking about 32 hit's of high powered LSD. Even he was alright eventually. Ive never heard of it happening with E though anything is possible. Ive freaked out and had what could only be described as total madness on alcohol for godsakes. Ive seen more people loose it on booze then on any drug but that doesent mean a few beers is gonna hurt someone.

Also your brain is unable to be allergic to E as there is no histamine released inside the brain itself. Your brain releases the histamine to your body. Anyway as far as i can tell histamine release does not occur with pure MDMA. If you get a pill that has alot of DXM in it then hell ya you can itch like a bastard.



> All of these deaths would mostly be accidents and murder...


 Doesent really matter does it there still dead arent they? Besides most drug deaths are accidents as well if you really wanna argue about it.


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## 17545 (Feb 14, 2007)

[qu.


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## Guest (May 12, 2007)

Pity you're wrong:

http://www.urban75.com/Drugs/drugdeath.html



Tigersuit said:


> [One] said:
> 
> 
> > There is a difference between getting in a car accident and dying and taking drugs and dying.
> ...


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## Guest (May 12, 2007)

honestly, who cares. let the drugees do the drugs. more drugs for them, less for me. more toxins in their body. less for me.

blind wino.

Eric


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## 17545 (Feb 14, 2007)

id.


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## Guest (May 12, 2007)

what a stupid argument. yeah, and how many peoples lives have been ruined because of a single "bad trip' from LSD? What is the cost of all of this human misery. Is it worse than death? one could argue.......most certainly so.

Eric


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## 17545 (Feb 14, 2007)

k.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

You can't OD on tryptamine psychedelics at all. This is the catagory that LSD and magic mushrooms fall under. The LD50 is so high that it's just impossible to OD on.

You can OD on phenethylamine type psychedelics such as MDMA but deaths due to pure MDMA are very rare indeed. I think i read a report that you have a better chance of dying of taking a aspirin pill.

Also i don't see much difference between dying playing football, boxing, hockey, any other sport or even driving a car and overdosing accidentally on drugs. Everybody knows they have to take risks in life. Life is one big risk your gonna die eventually theres no escaping it.

It would be a pretty goddamn boring life anyway if you didnt take some risks.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

jesusmyangsthasabodycount said:


> what a stupid argument. yeah, and how many peoples lives have been ruined because of a single "bad trip' from LSD? What is the cost of all of this human misery. Is it worse than death? one could argue.......most certainly so.
> 
> Eric


 There havent been all that many peoples lives ruined by a bad trip. Ive had bad trips sure there scary but there not dangerous. Alot more peoples lives have been ruined by alcohol and it generally has a worse effect on people then LSD or any other psychedelic.

Your more likely to go nuts on alcohol then psychedelics. I have never seen anyone in my life get violent under the influence of LSD, magic mushrooms, mescaline or ecstasy. I have never gotten violent under the influence of a psychedelic either but ive ended up in the back of more then a few cop cars due to alcohol and so have alot of people i know. This does not even take into account all the murders commited by people who where drunk or all the people killed by drunk drivers.

But i still don't think alcohol should be outlawed just because me and a few other people tend to get violent under the influence of it. That would just be stupid. As stupid as the drug laws actually.


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## widescreened (Jun 22, 2005)

This is a crazy thread, or it has turned crazy.
Hppd online is an excellent resource for going into the specifics of drug enduced dp/dr. 
there will always be well argued sides to this arguement, and never a clear emphatic right or wrong side. Trigger or cause, there is a way out.
Im inclined to side with the trigger side of the debate.


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## 17545 (Feb 14, 2007)

ck.


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## Guest (May 13, 2007)

We love a drug argument don't we :lol:

Greg


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## 17545 (Feb 14, 2007)

[quote na.


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## Guest (May 13, 2007)

I am getting severe dejavu :shock:


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## 17545 (Feb 14, 2007)

Im still the same person said:


> I am getting severe dejavu :shock:


Haha, yeah.


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## jonnyfiasco (Apr 20, 2007)

Deja vu. Haha. Live healthily and health will come is all I say. Don't and prepare to accept the consequences.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

[One] said:


> jonnyfiasco said:
> 
> 
> > Live healthily and health will come is all I say. Don't and prepare to accept the consequences.
> ...


 What makes illegal drug's more dangerous then legal drugs? Alot of legal pharmaceutical drugs are more dangerous then illegal drugs. Not to mention alcohol and cigarettes.

And since when is the government so concerned about our health anyway? The only reason these drugs are illegal is because the DEA and alot of police inforcement agencies would be out of a job if they where made legal.

I don't know why i even bother arguing with ONE because he will never change his mind (such as it is) and i sure as hell will never change mine.


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## Guest (May 13, 2007)

comfortably numb said:


> The only reason these drugs are illegal is because the DEA and alot of police inforcement agencies would be out of a job if they where made legal.


What a load of bull shite. lol


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## Guest (May 13, 2007)

comfortably numb said:


> The only reason these drugs are illegal is because the DEA and a lot of police inforcement agencies would be out of a job if they where made legal.


ROFLOL :lol: Cheers for that, I needed a laugh.

Greg


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## 17545 (Feb 14, 2007)

Cops are a serious waste of taxpayers money.


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## jonnyfiasco (Apr 20, 2007)

Tigersuit said:


> Cops are a serious waste of taxpayers money.


Only people who take drugs would make a ridiculous statement like that!........ :wink:


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## 17545 (Feb 14, 2007)

hit.


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## jonnyfiasco (Apr 20, 2007)

I agree. But your living 500 years in the future. You could say the same with anything that is wrong in the world.

As for one time a cop helped me. Well i picked up a hot cop in a bar once and she helped me get my end away.....


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## Guest (May 14, 2007)

Tigersuit said:


> Cops are lazy, useless pieces of shit.


They are sound over in the UK (Derbyshire area) seems you get the shit end of the stick pal. With out them? there would be no law or control? do da math.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

Over here the cops never help anybody. While there writing a parking ticket or arresting someone for having a bag of weed on them some punk who robs an old person gets off scot free.

The cops are a waste of money and it's no wonder that nobody over here trusts them or likes them. All they seem to do is harass innocent people and let the guilty go free. They don't care about helping people all they care about is making themselves look good. For the most part they are more corrupt then the criminals. Atleast criminals dont pretend to be upstanding members of the community.

Where i grew up you never called the cops ever. If you had a problem with someone you settled it yourself.

And yes if they even legalized weed alot of law enforcement agencies would not be able to justify there existence or they would atleast have to lay off a hell of alot of staff. They have to justify to the taxpayers why they have all that money coming in from the government somehow.



> As for one time a cop helped me. Well i picked up a hot cop in a bar once and she helped me get my end away.....


 Ya id love to bang a hot cop chick. I actually wouldnt mind having handcuffs on me then for once in my life lol.


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