# Who do you want to be?



## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

I want to be loving, compassionate, hard-working, creative, healthy, thoughtful, considerate, trustworthy, and also a great piano player and editor/writer.

I want to think less of my own pleasure and comfort than I do of others', more of how I can relieve the suffering of others rather than my own, more of how I can make the world a better place for those who come after me, and less of whether I will ever understand myself.

I want to live so that when it is time for me to die, I can say with Christ, "Lord, into your hands I commend my spirit." But I don't want to say with Christ, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" I want to be more like Christ and less like myself, or rather, I want to become more like Christ, but I am a selfish, miserable beast.

I want to die to myself and live to Christ. But I am too stupid to know how to do that.

Who I want to be is who Christ wants me to be, but I am weak and too selfish sometimes to call out to Him for help.

I want to be she who is not quite so stupid about living for God and not herself. Who is just unstupid to know the real score but too dumb to give up her selfish wants. I guess that's about as stupid as one can get.

Bottom line: I wish I were smarter than I am.


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## bright23 (Jun 6, 2005)

You "don't want to say with Christ, '"My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?'" This confuses me. This is precisely where the gospels show Christ in his most human suffering. Are you saying Christ was wrong for cursing God?

"...I want to become more like Christ, but I am a selfish, miserable beast."
Don't be so hard on yourself... everybody's selfish, it's part of being human... but we're also capable of generosity, compassion and kindness. We can't be one without the other. Its how we choose to act, what we choose to emphasize in our lives. We can de-emphasize selfishness, but that won't prevent it from popping up when and where we least expect it. So we must make peace with our selfishness, like Christ did.

How would being smarter help you?


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

bright23 said:


> You "don't want to say with Christ, '"My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?'" This confuses me. This is precisely where the gospels show Christ in his most human suffering. Are you saying Christ was wrong for cursing God?


I have never heard anyone describe the first verse of Psalm 22, "Why have you forsaken me?" as a "curse" -- an accusation, maybe, if one does not know it is the beginning of a prayer that is the reverse of a curse. See http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm22.htm for the text.

But, putting that aside for the moment, in answer to your question, the reason I don't want to say that to God is because I have experienced the apparent absence of God before many times, and I am a coward. I don't want that experience again. See, I told you I was stupid. 8)

It's really just a sound-byte that in fact is used to support an attitude toward God that is entirely the reverse of what the psalm is actually doing: it is a prayer to God out of the depths of the psalmist's suffering and out of the suffering of Christ. But I am a coward. I want to not suffer that way again.



bright23 said:


> "...I want to become more like Christ, but I am a selfish, miserable beast."
> Don't be so hard on yourself... everybody's selfish, it's part of being human... but we're also capable of generosity, compassion and kindness. We can't be one without the other. Its how we choose to act, what we choose to emphasize in our lives. We can de-emphasize selfishness, but that won't prevent it from popping up when and where we least expect it. So we must make peace with our selfishness, like Christ did.


You are very wise and very kind; I am feeling very guilty, I suppose. But I was the one that said guilt is a beautiful thing -- I and I really do believe it. If I shed tears as I write this, they are tears of joy because I think Christ is breaking through and I am finding how much I have missed him.
Because of my emotional fragility, I have avoided going to Mass for quite a while. I am embarassed because I tend to be so touched that I weep, and I am so socially cut off from anyone there now that I end up feeling more lonely and cut off by the time Mass is over, although the experience of worship is wonderful and more important than is the human contact. But the human contact (or the lack of it) invades my consciousness and I wind up feeling resentful. I know I shouldn't and that is why I don't go to Mass. But I know it's wrong. I have tried to blot out any thoughts of how I used to know a few people there but now even those few are no longer friends. I know: totally meaningless stuff that shouldn't interfere with my relationshp with God, but it does interfere.



bright23 said:


> How would being smarter help you?


I would see the result of doing what feels more comfortable in the moment as not being the thing that is really BEST. Avoiding suffering is not the best choice, but it is what I do. I know theoretically and spiritually that this is true, but I am too stupid to continue to do what I know is best for me even if I have to suffer. Now, that is DUMB. :roll:


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## Phill (Sep 27, 2004)

You sound a little like Paul when he said the good he knows to do he doesn't do. You know the verse.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

I want to be Natalie Portman's bicycle seat. As soon as possible please. Cheers.


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2005)

God


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2005)

Martin,
That was hysterical but who the hell is Natalie Portman. Oh let me guess it is a UK thing LOL.
Kate


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

She's an American actress and Martin is a horny bloke. :lol:


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## enigma (Feb 18, 2005)

e


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## bright23 (Jun 6, 2005)

"...an accusation, maybe, if one does not know it is the beginning of a prayer that is the reverse of a curse."

I don't follow what you're getting at here.

You talk about being a coward like its a bad thing. Humans are cowards sometimes.

I've done the self-flagellation thing for years and I know that it has gotten me nowhere.

God doesn't want us to waste our time getting down on ourselves over our (by nature) weak human nature.


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

Bright23 wrote:

"...an accusation, maybe, if one does not know it is the beginning of a prayer that is the reverse of a curse."

I don't follow what you're getting at here.

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Soj: Christ's words are the words of Psalm 22's first line. If one does not know that that psalm is a hymn of praise in the midst of suffering -- and by no means a curse -- one could still be forgiven, as it were, for thinking those words to be an accusation, which of course they are not.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

You want to be a brain in a jar, Enigma ?

Whatever next ! :lol:


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

bright23 said:


> <snip>
> 
> You talk about being a coward like its a bad thing. Humans are cowards sometimes.


You are critiquing my spontaneous outpouring of feeling and thought. If I do the same thing to others, I am horrified. The subtext is, "Stifle it." You probably don't mean that, but that's the effect of your words on a person who's letting go and speaking in-the-moment -- going through something transient that seeks outward expression. In fact, I highly doubt you mean to rebuke me.



bright23 said:


> I've done the self-flagellation thing for years and I know that it has gotten me nowhere.


Honey bun, I don't "do" the self-flagellation thing. I erupted in spontaneous "song," like an existential operatic lament, that was expression of a single moment's crystallization of feeling. I don't live on a steady diet of such feelings, thank God.



bright23 said:


> God doesn't want us to waste our time getting down on ourselves over our (by nature) weak human nature.


Expressing ourselves in moments of acute feeling -- like an existential operatic lament -- is not a waste of time. I think you agree, but I feel I need to say it anyway.


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## enigma (Feb 18, 2005)

Martinelv said:


> You want to be a brain in a jar, Enigma ?


Oh this is about what you _want_ to be.

My mistake, sorry. 

e


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

Martinelv said:


> You want to be a brain in a jar, Enigma ?
> 
> Whatever next ! :lol:


He's just so...so...cutting edge.


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

Sojourner said:


> I want to live so that when it is time for me to die, I can say with Christ, "Lord, into your hands I commend my spirit." But I don't want to say with Christ, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" I want to be more like Christ and less like myself, or rather, I want to become more like Christ, but I am a selfish, miserable beast.


This was beautifully, and very humanly said. Please pardon the rant i'm about to enter into...it doesn't necessarily have to do with you, and i'm included in those i indict in this:

Why do people constantly attempt to conceive of that which they cannot. I always (and by "always" i mean virtually every week) hear arguments as to why God would or wouldn't have done this or that if he were "real"...i had someone quite close to me actually basing their atheistic argument on the fact that humans had the capicity to produce waste (and i do mean the biological kind). These arguments are inherently specious in the sense that if one assumes that God does exist, the entire opposing argument, with it's reliance on terrestrial tangibles, is doomed to be moot. You can't say, "Oh, if God existed he wouldn't have made us do something so silly looking as taking a crap." Who are these people to presume to know what God would or would not do?

Granted, my argument is entirely convenient for my own postulation. But here's the thing. I don't mind debating the existence of God. I think it should be open to debate. People always chiming in with their "But it's a matter of faith!" jingles seem to think that that's a kind of vampire's crucifix which can stop any debater in their path. It shouldn't be that way. Believe in God. But tell me why you do.

Anyway, back to my point. If you want to argue about the existence of God (please note that in this entire missive i'm using "You" as a hypothetical pronoun, and not directing it to Sojourner....please also note that i've had at least 1.5 litres of wine tonight and am listening to Billy Idol of all people, as i write this...so if it's a little nonsensical, my apologies)...if you want to argue the existence of God, by all means do so, but you have to realize that if God does exist any arguments you make outside the realm of metaphysical science are rendered moot by the fact that i could always counter-argue that that's the way that He wanted it to be. I mean that seriously, you know. It's like this...OK, i'm going to give you an analogy...

You're in a room. You wake up. You look around. Empty. God almighty, where are you? You're in an empty room and you're all alone. And you're crying. Yes, that's right. Crying. You're a mere 5 mins. old. Too young to vote but too old to claim asylum in the womb. And you're crying like a little sissy-boy. How did you get there? Who knows? Who cares? Well, you do, but you soon become accustomed to your dark grey walls, your deep brooding silences, your absence of everything that we, in our world today, take for granted. Your days pass by without word...without contact...without light.

Day after day after day. You aren't so much miserable as you are confused. You see, you have no real reference point. You were spat out of some womb or another into this grey bleak world and you're sitting around checking out the crevices in the flooring, listening to your echo spatter against the walls, wondering what the hell you're going to do with the rest of your time there (which you assume will be forever since you have no conception of death, you being the only one there).

Suddenly, without warning, the top of the roof of the room is pulled off and there are a bunch of self-confident glowering scientists hovering over you. The sky is peeled back and your world is blown to shreds. All those ideas about religion, God, eternity, life, death, are blown out the window. Or whatever constitutes a window in this life and age that you live in. You've been illuminated. You have seen the light.

Bottom line and overall point is this: Question, wonder, and sceptically muse. But don't presume to know. For you can't. No one can. If we could, we'd be Gods. And if we were, i can guarantee you this....we wouldn't be taking craps all over the place.

Anyway, i guess this is a little off-topic. I was compelled to write something because i thought Sojourner's plight sounded similar to my own. Don't worry, my friend...the light is just 300,000 km./s away. I just thought that up. Damn, i'm clever. No but really, sorry if this isn't any help...i know what you mean...know what you're going through. Faith is exceedingly difficult with a disease such as this. But you'll find it again. You really will. It's incredible how things change.

s.


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

god i can't look at your avatar sebastian

it's hilarious tho


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

His avatar is not "Sebastian at computer" but "Sojourner at piano" and I could KILL him for spying on me.


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

Good thoughts, Sebastian -- I don't disagree with anything you said!

If we were smart, though, we'd admire the goodness of "producing waste." The truth is, of course, that it's a feature of all of creation, not just humans, firstly, and secondly, the judgment of something being "silly lookling" is an infantile notion that is truly the effluent of a stunted mind.


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## yesemina (Jul 12, 2005)

It is so weird how much I identify with you people. I mean what really brought me to these forums was the fact that I had a crazy meditation experience and it fired up crazy anxiety. But I read the thoughts of so many here and I completely identify.

But Sojourner, yes, I have this burning desire as well to be smarter than I am. I like who I am, but nothing is ever really good enough. I care more about awareness and intelligence than pretty much anything else. I never considered myself a perfectionist really, except in the enjoyment I get from perfecting my actions and purifying my thoughts. Just from my own beliefs, well - I don't believe in a God, but I consider myself "spiritual," and that with high spiritual knowledge we can get insight into ourselves and the nature of existence and become beings with God-like qualities, just from tapping into our higher consciousness and realizing the greater whole.

I am never "DP-ed" anymore, just anxious, and I HATE being nervous and the obsessive thoughts, it's so uncomfortable.

But, the thing that is keeping me sane, is that like sebastian reaffirmed, I know I can't presume to know. That's a bad habit I've kept myself in for most of my life, as probably most of us have.


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

Yesemina,

I mostly meant "smart enough to ACT on what I already know" -- actually, I don't want to be smarter than I am. Well, that's almost right. I'd like to be able to do enough mathematics to understand modern physics, especially Einstein's theories. But I wonder if that's really related to intelligence and not to the despicable math teachers I had in my lifetime who wanted me to just memorize how to do something without understanding it.

Other than that, I'm smart enough to understand that we have all got ourselves into ONE FINE PICKLE by showing up here. :lol:


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## yesemina (Jul 12, 2005)

> I mostly meant "smart enough to ACT on what I already know" -- actually, I don't want to be smarter than I am. Well, that's almost right. I'd like to be able to do enough mathematics to understand modern physics, especially Einstein's theories. But I wonder if that's really related to intelligence and not to the despicable math teachers I had in my lifetime who wanted me to just memorize how to do something without understanding it.
> 
> Other than that, I'm smart enough to understand that we have all got ourselves into ONE FINE PICKLE by showing up here.


Yeah, being smart enough to ACT on what I know is the biggest part of my desire. A lot of the things I do know, if I could act upon them, would probably make me a much happier person in the long run. I'd like another dose of awareness too, please. Haha.

I hate how a lot of teachers in school do the thinking for you. They give the information, you intake it and spit it out. Woo-hoo. Applying our knowledge can be hard.

I like to show up here now because it almost makes me fantasize about what is going on with me (which right now is not very good). BUT, also because of how much I feel I identify with people, which just draws me right on back.


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

LOL. I know what you mean, Yesemina. Frankly, I think I know why I'm here. I actually find the people here very stimulating, funny, intelligent, and more real than a lot of flesh-and-bloods I know. If you know what I mean....


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## yesemina (Jul 12, 2005)

> Frankly, I think I know why I'm here. I actually find the people here very stimulating, funny, intelligent, and more real than a lot of flesh-and-bloods I know. If you know what I mean...


Yep.


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

Actually, that's pretty funny, isn't it?

I'm here on a _depersonalization _forum, for God's sake, and I find the people here (a forum of folks who think they are screwed out of their ever-lovin' minds) *more real *than some of the flesh-and-bloods I know!!

The _irony _is delicious!

This is so hysterical to me. If these "poor crazies" could only know that this is true, they would come to life and see how beautiful, smart, talented, and valued they really are!


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## yesemina (Jul 12, 2005)

> I'm here on a depersonalization forum, for God's sake, and I find the people here (a forum of folks who think they are screwed out of their ever-lovin' minds) more real than some of the flesh-and-bloods I know!!


I KNOW. The irony is wonderful. I myself have been confused because I want to accept what is happening/what has happened, I don't want to view it as abnormal. I get a strange satisfaction out of everything that has happened in my case.

I love this new awareness that I feel I am starting to embark upon and that I need to delve more into, but my anxiety is now associated with it, unfortunately. So it appears to be that I'll have to wait until I am over the anxiety to be able to explore it again, because the anxiety stemmed from being afraid of what was happening and viewing it the wrong way and then my mind building it up from there. That is my only problem.

Blah.

But I feel there is a lot to be learned here with these states!!


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2005)

i want to be me again..


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