# What makes more sense to you?



## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

You see a person. How did this person come into being?

a) Did they suddenly appear into existence out of thin air, fully clothed with working organs, bone structure, senses, etc. ?

b) Were they created by egg fertilization from an act of two living beings?


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

They're not really there; they are a product of my mind and my mind alone.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

egodeath said:


> They're not really there; they are a product of my mind and my mind alone.


I knew I could count on you.


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## SistA HazeL (Aug 10, 2008)

egodeath said:


> They're not really there; they are a product of my mind and my mind alone.


Exactly!


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## peachy (Feb 9, 2008)

hmmm i give in to what the world tells me and say B, cause i'm certainly not gettin there on my own.


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## gill (Jul 1, 2010)

Well then, I hope people continuously look at me or I won't exist.


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

Conjurus said:


> You see a person. How did this person come into being?
> 
> a ) Did they suddenly appear into existence out of thin air, fully clothed with working organs, bone structure, senses, etc. ?
> 
> b ) Were they created by egg fertilization from an act of two living beings?


Depends on how ugly they are.

This reminds me (a true story), once I got talking to an old sheep herder. Somehow we started talking about the bible. He said he didn't believe it because the ark couldn't hold very many animals. However he figures the real truth is: one third of mankind was created by god, another third came from apes, and the last third came from outer-space.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2011)

Visual Dude said:


> Depends on how ugly they are.
> 
> This reminds me (a true story), once I got talking to an old sheep herder. Somehow we started talking about the bible. He said he didn't believe it because the ark couldn't hold very many animals. However he figures the real truth is: one third of mankind was created by god, another third came from apes, and the last third came from outer-space.


That's actually possible. If you consider "Gods" as Advanced Sentient Beings ("Aliens") who "created" (through genetic science) humans, from apish ancestors. And then there might be other human races in the galaxy/universe who migrated here with their spaceships ("Ancient Astronauts").









Just think about it, if Aliens can fly around in Space, just imagine how advanced their Genetic Science must be. I mean look, we humans can barely go to the moon, but we can clone animals already. It's entirely possible, if you just open your mind a little, then you'll clearly see what is potential.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2011)

Oh, and God creates through the means of evolution.


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## never_giving_up (Jun 23, 2010)

egodeath said:


> They're not really there; they are a product of my mind and my mind alone.


When you say 'not really there' what do you mean?

Are you saying that the matter doesn't exist?

I'm just thinking it doesn't really make sense what you're saying because for your ego and mind to exist you need matter to exist first. Like you can't have a mind without the existence of matter.

Like if I put my head under a steamroller then I would become unconscious. I would not be able to think any more because the configuration of matter that allows me to contemplate such scenarios would be all out of place.

It's the whole "does a tree make a noise" thing. Like, even though you weren't conscious before you were born does that mean that your parents didn't have sex? Does reality exist beyond your conscious mind?

I believe so. I think it's kind of grandiose to think otherwise.


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

egodeath said:


> They're not really there; they are a product of my mind and my mind alone.


Maybe a little egocentric? &#8230; please don't forget about me - I don't what to die


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## Mushishi (May 31, 2010)

You guys are insane.


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## girlie (Apr 1, 2010)

Visual Dude said:


> Maybe a little egocentric? &#8230; please don't forget about me - I don't what to die


No, not a trace of egocentrism detected - this is about the famous branch of philosophy called solipsism. BTW, there is a pretty impressive article of solipsism in Wikipedia, sometimes that online encyclopedia really surprises you in a very positive way!


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

girlie said:


> No, not a trace of egocentrism detected - this is about the famous branch of philosophy called solipsism. BTW, there is a pretty impressive article of solipsism in Wikipedia, sometimes that online encyclopedia really surprises you in a very positive way!


Solipsism almost sounds like DP/DR. It is too abstract for my gray matter.

Am very pragmatic and much more in the direction of empiricism. It would seem that our sensory perceptions and experiences shape our view. It is true that the views are distorted/biased - simply from abnormal experiences and/or isolation. Or even if 'normal' and healthy.

True knowledge probably exists but our perspectives, experiences, and limited existence make this a process/journey rather than an absolute/goal that can be completed. Nevertheless, this shouldn't be disturbing. Good mental/emotional health involves being able to enjoy the moment (flower, sunset, friendship, pizza, &#8230 without undo concern about tomorrow.


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

Mushishi said:


> You guys are insane.


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## girlie (Apr 1, 2010)

Visual Dude said:


> Solipsism almost sounds like DP/DR. It is too abstract for my gray matter.
> 
> Am very pragmatic and much more in the direction of empiricism. It would seem that our sensory perceptions and experiences shape our view. It is true that the views are distorted/biased - simply from abnormal experiences and/or isolation. Or even if 'normal' and healthy.
> 
> True knowledge probably exists but our perspectives, experiences, and limited existence make this a process/journey rather than an absolute/goal that can be completed. Nevertheless, this shouldn't be disturbing. Good mental/emotional health involves being able to enjoy the moment (flower, sunset, friendship, pizza, &#8230 without undo concern about tomorrow.


I have experienced intense solipsism only once on nitrous oxide. And it was a truly frightening experience, only my consciousness existed, and time was like only one ticking clock, everything in myself, the past, present and future combined together with utter hopelessness, frozen terror and apathy. It was a strange trip, as normally on nitrous oxide I have felt the universe wondrous and full of life. However, that experience of solipsism was totally lifeless, just grey, cold, unemotional raw existence, and one. Only one existed, not many, now even zero, which might have been a happy escape from that experience to the Buddhist void. Just only raw one, without hope. Thus I don't recommend experiencing solipsism to anyone, if you other guys would get it like I did.

What you tell in your post, you speak wisely. What you say, that would be truly healthy life. Unfortunately, when being afraid one cannot enjoy anything really. My derealization 24/7 is the outcome I am afraid of practically everything, especially deep inside I cannot trust anyone. Let's see if I someday would slowly begin to trust, if not in people, then at least in the nature of existence, the universe, or multiverse if that physical theory is true. As the existence is not false, it is always true. It can hurt you, or help you, everything is depending on natural laws. Thus in principle I should have nothing to fear. But tell it to my emotional side! That won't listen to the voice of reason, never does









I believe there is absolute truth, which is the whole existence and non-existence together, and if it would be sentient (which noone, but perhaps that "thing" itself, may know), that core of all existence which binds everything and nothing together, it would certainly be able to explain itself with physical formulas. At least this is what I believe. Other people have different beliefs. Why then am I afraid, when I believe there is absolute truth? It is so irrational to fear in that case, but well, emotions tend to be irrational. It is just so sad, I wish I could be more rational with my feelings.


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## Mushishi (May 31, 2010)

Insanity.


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## girlie (Apr 1, 2010)

Mushishi said:


> Insanity.


Oh thank you Mushishi, you are always so friendly, wise and helpful with your minimalistic oneliners.


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

girlie said:


> I have experienced intense solipsism only once on nitrous oxide. And it was a truly frightening experience, only my consciousness existed, and time was like only one ticking clock, everything in myself, the past, present and future combined together with utter hopelessness, frozen terror and apathy. It was a strange trip, as normally on nitrous oxide I have felt the universe wondrous and full of life. However, that experience of solipsism was totally lifeless, just grey, cold, unemotional raw existence, and one. Only one existed, not many, now even zero, which might have been a happy escape from that experience to the Buddhist void. Just only raw one, without hope. Thus I don't recommend experiencing solipsism to anyone, if you other guys would get it like I did.
> 
> What you tell in your post, you speak wisely. What you say, that would be truly healthy life. Unfortunately, when being afraid one cannot enjoy anything really. My derealization 24/7 is the outcome I am afraid of practically everything, especially deep inside I cannot trust anyone. Let's see if I someday would slowly begin to trust, if not in people, then at least in the nature of existence, the universe, or multiverse if that physical theory is true. As the existence is not false, it is always true. It can hurt you, or help you, everything is depending on natural laws. Thus in principle I should have nothing to fear. But tell it to my emotional side! That won't listen to the voice of reason, never does
> 
> ...


*utter hopelessness, frozen terror and apathy* - this is the message instilled in my youth. Perhaps this is what some experienced in concentration camps. Behind it is pure anguish and agony. This stuff drives distrust. As an adult the rational mind can dismiss such things and put them in proper context. But when emotional pain has been buried in layer after layer of shielding, it doesn't yield to reason. Unfortunately it hasn't made a pearl either. More like an onion - peeling each layer off with tears.

Saw a movie last week. A science fiction which was too close to reality for some called _Never Let Me Go_. It isn't a happy movie but it is important. (Won't explain what I mean since it could spoil the plot for any who wish to see it.) But for me it hit very deep and vibrates inside on the above theme.

*being afraid one cannot enjoy anything really* - this is so true. I don't know where you are in your journey but many start with anger and rage.

*I cannot trust anyone* - trust is something that people must earn. But it is good to give the benefit of the doubt and excuse imperfections. And to realize that you can trust yourself and largely protect yourself. Whatever happened it negatively affects how you view yourself - this is a key area to correct. Here is a movie with a happy ending - _I Am David_. Particularly note Sophie's words near the end.

Never give up hope. Know that as you sort stuff out, life gets better. It just isn't a straight line - more of a seismograph. The more friends and people on your side - it is like dampeners to soften the blows and steady the waves &#8230; hang on tight when the needle dips down. In time your emotional side will listen to the voice of reason more and more and give relief.


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## Another Name (Mar 18, 2011)

Visual Dude said:


> Maybe a little egocentric? &#8230; please don't forget about me - I don't what to die


I think of you daily. Are 5 minutes of life per day enough?


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## girlie (Apr 1, 2010)

Hi Visual Dude,

you speak always so wisely







I will try to reply you this weekend, been feeling low for a week or so (indeed about 3-3,5 weeks, but at least this latest week without any alcohol and benzo abuse). Actually today evening I planned to knock my brains out with red wine, but luckily my boyfriend called me and forbid me doing anything stupid. We went to the shopping centre together and thus I was even literally unable to buy any alcohol. I know I was very lucky today, thanks belong to my dear boyfriend. Just should find some way of coping better with these traumatic past memories I have began receiving from inside lately. My main method seems to be not listening to my inside people at all, if they are in pain. I just shut my ears from their cries and that it what makes me feel low, depressed and anxious, which isn't any wonder. AND today I was near to begin another insane drinking period, being even close to it.

I know I need help, and I should trust I am already getting it - from my boyfriend, from you truly amazing guys here in dpselfhelp, from other amazing guys at one DID forum I am in - and from my new psychiatrist, who is exceptionally familiar with trauma and dissociative disorders and whom I found via ISSTD site. I finally have a psychiatrist, who is a real specialist, thus really I should trust I am getting help, finally...


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## Mushishi (May 31, 2010)

girlie said:


> Oh thank you Mushishi, you are always so friendly, wise and helpful with your minimalistic oneliners.


Most definitely.


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