# For anyone with fear of psychosis/schizophrenia etc.!



## Guest (Nov 2, 2004)

Good news today...I went to the psychiatrist and told her my irrational thoughts and fear of schizophrenia...she said some interesting things about psychosis:

1- I've not a "psychotic structure". Janine was right when she was saying that neurosis and psychosis were like structures set in stone in our childhood.

2- She has never seen a psychotic "auto-diagnosing" himself, usually the first ones that see there's something wrong are his parents. The only insight a psychotic can have is when he/she has hallucinations, and he/she knows that, for example, "it can't be possible to see gnomes dancing on the table"....in fact, that is not full fledged psychosis, but sort of intermediate condition.

3- Psychotic people, unless they take meds and manage their disorder, have a hard time describing exactly how they feel and what is happening to them, I've read many of your symptoms and it seems to me that all of you are very capable to say "I feel like this" or "I fear that" or "I obsess about this" etc...

4- When I'm REALLY occupied with something else (dancing at the disco, for example) I don't think about crazy thoughts, or I don't care even if I think them. Psychosis is not something that you can simply push away by distracting yourself. The same goes with dp...distraction is one of the keys. I know, if you're like me, you'll even obsess about "What if this evening I'll not be able to distract myself?"... and you'll probably be successful in doing that, BUT this is another proof that yours is just obsessiveness, not psychosis.

5- I've a job, a girlfriend and I study at the university...for a psychotic, without meds, it's impossible to do well with these things.

6-Dp/dr is extremely common in anxiety disorders, and when is associated with psychosis, dp/dr appears when the psychotic has already lost insight and contact with reality.

She has extensive experience (20 years) with both neurotic and psychotic people so her advice is very reliable...hope this helps, guys 

P.S. I still have that fear...I mean, after 2 years, it can't go away in one day...but I'm a bit more positive! :wink:


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2004)

After like 10 months of this, and much reassurance, i still have a fear of going insane. Its like im waiting for the day when a psychotic break occurs and i completely loose it.

it really sucks


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2004)

I can top that Soul Brotha, after 15 yrs of it, and remember I AM THE ONE WHO SAID THAT STUFF MENTIONED ABOVE< LOL and I knew that stuff AT THE TIME, but I still thought I was going insane!!! I thought it 10 yrs into it with the same conviction I had the first day I ever felt dp.

Part of the illness, part of the symptom itself when dp is coupled with obsessive neurosis is that we always feel like we about to lose total control (lose control of our minds).

I do understand.

Peace,
Janine


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2004)

It is my understanding that although one may not be regarded as being a "psychotic" it is possible for some people to have psychotic breaks with reality at times. I was once diagnosed with having a schizophrenic reaction during a particularly stressful period. So while it might not be accurate to describe someone as being a psychotic I do believe that it is possible for non psychotics to experience temporary psychotic breaks with "reality". Just like i would imagine that so called "normal people" might develope "neurotic" symptoms under certain circumstances.

just my opinion though
john


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## Snowy (Aug 10, 2004)

yea, i'm not really scared of psychosis anymore. At the start i was...but i've had dp over 3 yrs now ( i know its not a long time compared to some, but for me it is) , and its getting old.......its still as annoying as hell, and shlts me to tears...but im not really scared of it anymore.....just last night i was lying in bed and felt like i was losing my mind going to go insane, but i just laughed at how irratated i was and kicked the bed a few times, tried to cry and then just fell asleep....but i wasnt scared of it at all..... its just starting to really piss me off...i feel like punching myself in the head most days...but i dont...cos then i will probably obsess over giving myself brain damage...but what can ya do...... its weird, because just a few months ago i was still shit scared of it and sweating and clenching my fists...now when i get really bad, i just get down........ im pissed of at how i cant enjoy myself anymore.... nothing feels good....cant look forward to anything cos ive always got this dp in the background ......im sick of going outside at night and feeling like im inside still...looking around and everything looks dreamy...... i know im mentally ill and need work, but every psych ive ever been to has no fucking clue about me...cos i go in there and act like im fine...when inside im screaming...i just cant let it out.....cos i dont know how to....i hate me...im such a wanker......


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## falling_free (Nov 3, 2004)

Ive had a fear of having scitzophenia for a long time now as I feel so disconnected and ungrounded from realtiy that I fear going insane, an example of how disconnected and ungrounded I feel is that I will be wlaking back from somewehre but I won't have any sense of where I am and what could have been me walking for 20 minutes feels like ive been walikng for hours and hours, and I also have delsions of granduer and thoughts enter my head all the time like I am an important figure in the universe and then i opveranaylze these thoughts and go to the very deepest level of my mind at all times, its like i cant relax and have a clear mind I always have to be thinking about my self and every one else at the deepst levels of human couciousness, One thing tht I bear in mind though was that when I was one a pycsh war a few months ago i actually met people who were scitophenic and they actually believed any unusual or unreasnable thougths that entered their minds and im preety sure they heard voices and saw things, like for example this one man I knew there thought that the ward was an alien spaceship and he had loads of synthsisers and a lightshow in his room, I tryed to reason with him that these things could not possibly be true, but he was so wound up in his own delusion that he would not believe my line of reasoning no matter how unlikely his ideas were, and I don't have these sympons of hearing voices and seeing things (though i have had halluinations while on drugs) but I still worry unnecceserally


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2004)

First of all, sorry if this post is a bit long.

Soulbrotha, I think I understand how do you feel...you know, for me dp started when I read about it in the symptoms of many mental illness...I've this stupid thing of imagining all symptoms and try to have them; in fact, my dp is very low and not very time consuming, if I have to picture my current situation, it would be: 20% dp, 80% stupid thoughts + fear of going crazy. 
In these 2 years, I've talked with 4 psychiatrists, my mother (a doctor) and my aunt (counselor), my uncle (another doctor)...all of them are 200% sure I don't have psychosis nor I'm going to have it...but, of course, I've still this fear X__X
I'm sure you'll be fine, I've read many of your posts and you don't really seem a person who is going crazy, you're just a neurotic like me. Hang on.

Janine, I'm sorry you had to go like this for 15 years, I've been 2 years into this hell and I know what it means analysing everything you think or do. There are times where I'm 99% OCD and dp free...they last a day, or even a week...in these times I feel so strong that I could change the world, and I think "This is it, I'm going to be fine forever!"...then obsessions return, and I think "This is it, I'm going to be bad forever!" :roll: 
In this period, I've noticed a thing: I've thoughts more devastating and fearful of the others I had before, but I've also more times where I feel well...it's like my obsessiveness has grown is strenght and intensity, but decreased in quantity...do you think it's a good or a bad thing?

John_59, I've never had a psychotic break so I can't say if what you say it's true or not...what I can say (just my opinion, of course) is that what we call "mental illness" is a mysterious thing and many doctors prefer to simplify things with manuals like DSMIV, when we all know that every human being is different.
I remember my uncle told me that when he was young (23-24 years old), he went trough a period of 3 years where he had a sort of religious delirium: he spent his time painting crosses and holy simbols on the walls and praying of not being possessed by a demon...he's never been admitted to a hospital. Today, he has 58 years old, is a famous doctor, he's married with three sons and he's happy.

Snowy, I have a similar thing like the one you explain in your post: inside myself I feel like crap, outside I'm the very opposite...when I hang on with friends, I'm brilliant, nice and so on...also when I go to the psychiatrists, well...the first times, she even thought that I was joking with her because she saw me so "happy" and nice that she said "You really don't seem an obsessive guy". I don't know why I do this...when I'm out for work, study or friends, I'm the person I was 2 years ago...the moment I return home, I become an obsessive guy again :?


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Tau, good post but there were some inaccuracies. I could say I know it for sure, as I have had a psychotic break in my past. Although your psychiatrist surely has had a many years' career treating mentally ill, I'm pretty sure she never has experienced any psychotic stuff personally. So some things she has said to you aren't exactly true, at least when it comes to my case.



Tau said:


> 3- Psychotic people, unless they take meds and manage their disorder, have a hard time describing exactly how they feel and what is happening to them, I've read many of your symptoms and it seems to me that all of you are very capable to say "I feel like this" or "I fear that" or "I obsess about this" etc...


I could say right away that's bullshit. Even during the psychotic break I was constantly analysing my experience. For example when I had a phonecall with my boyfriend, and happened to look my face in the mirror, I suddenly saw that a half of my face changed into my boyfriend's image. I was amazed of that visual change in the mirror, at the same time chatting with my boyfriend in the phone, quietly thinking (not telling him): "Wow, I'd like to know how the human brain can create that kind of illusions! This is very interesting, I'd like to see more." Indeed I loved to see/smell/feel the illusionary stuff I did, as I couldn't do that while being not psychotic.

That didn't make me nonpsychotic though, as I gave divine meanings to the stuff I experienced. For example I thought I had a mental connection with one dude from the future, and I wanted to believe he was real, as the experience felt so profound and strong. I felt the universe had given us (me and the dude from the future) that connection. But at the same time I was having the telepathic connection with him I was busy analysing it: "How can I send him mental messages, how does it work? What if I'm just imagining his presence and he is just my alter? Even if he is my alter only, he is still real and I could say this is really interesting. I wanna experience more of this, I wanna know how the human brain can work like this..."

But - what I consider as the strongest indication of psychosis, is the fact that while being psychotic, the psychotic person doesn't understand there's anything wrong in hir mental condition. And the people who notice there is something wrong are usually other people, who know the psychotic person well. The psychotic experience is such deep and strong, that it is very hard not to believe in it. So your psychiatrist is definitely right when she told you this:



Tau said:


> 2- She has never seen a psychotic "auto-diagnosing" himself, usually the first ones that see there's something wrong are his parents. The only insight a psychotic can have is when he/she has hallucinations, and he/she knows that, for example, "it can't be possible to see gnomes dancing on the table"....in fact, that is not full fledged psychosis, but sort of intermediate condition.


By the way, I agree with John. Even a normal person may experience a psychotic break, when having an enourmous amount of stress. Psychosis doesn't necessarily mean schizophrenia or other severe mental illness. My boyfriend has experienced psychosis in his past like me, and he hasn't taken antipsychotics for ages, and yet he is just fine, with no trace of psychotic ideation. I am still eating antipsychotics, but I do it because I don't want to stop my medication while I'm studying - reading for exams and passing them are stress enough for me at the moment, I don't want to experience any symptoms of withdrawal right now. That's why I have thought to quit my medication slowly step by step, after I have accomplished my studies and have found work in the near future.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2004)

Hi Ninnu, i'm sorry you had a psychotic break and please, excuse me if I have written something inaccurate :-(
I explained myself point n.3 badly, what I really meant is that, when you're in a psychotic phase, you don't say for example "I feel like my hands are not my own", instead you say "My hands are not my own", and you're sure of it...I mean, my psych said to me that is the capacity to correctly analyzing things that goes away when you're psychotic.
Your post is very interesting indeed...as I write in my post above, my uncle too experienced a sort of psychosis, and now he's fine, healthy and even rich...I really don't know what to think...psychosis scares me very much, but in these days I'm thinking about the true meaning of it, since I've read an article about a different view of psychosis for some people...what if for someone is not an illness, but more of... an experience? I really don't know.
Uh, and sorry if my English is a bit confused...I'm only 1/12 English...for 11/12, I'm Italian


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Tau said:


> I remember my uncle told me that when he was young (23-24 years old), he went trough a period of 3 years where he had a sort of religious delirium: he spent his time painting crosses and holy simbols on the walls and praying of not being possessed by a demon...he's never been admitted to a hospital. Today, he has 58 years old, is a famous doctor, he's married with three sons and he's happy.


Hi Tau - you happened to post a second time while I was writing mine... What you say above, I feel it might be also relieving. Even psychosis isn't necessarily a dead end, as one can recover and be fine the rest of one's life, never experiencing psychosis again. Personally I do not fear psychosis at all, as I have experienced it and recovered. Indeed if I had enough spare time in a safe place I'd like to stop my medication cold turkey for some time, and experience psychosis bc of withdrawal. It is an experience that can be also very beautiful and interesting, for me it was like living inside a fairytale, being the heroine of the tale. That's why I would like to experience psychosis one again, though I'm aware can't do it as long as I have to live in this world as a responsible person, paying the rent and passing exams etc.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Tau said:


> I explained myself point n.3 badly, what I really meant is that, when you're in a psychotic phase, you don't say for example "I feel like my hands are not my own", instead you say "My hands are not my own", and you're sure of it...I mean, my psych said to me that is the capacity to correctly analyzing things that goes away when you're psychotic.


Oh, now I guess what your psych might have meant. As you have already told in your other post, everyone is unique and thus the experiences are unique. So I guess the psychotic person who is very deep in hir psychosis may really feel like that, i.e. think that the hands aren't hir own and be sure of it. I guess my psychosis wasn't that deep/bad, and that's why I could analyse everything I experienced. Actually I never told any psych about the mental connection with the guy from the future while I was psychotic, as I was aware they would consider that kind of ideation psychotic. Instead I only told about the stuff I thought safe, e.g. depression, PTSD flashbacks etc... I'm glad the psychiatrist of the mental ward still could see I had psychotic symptoms, and thus prescribed me the right meds. I have read the medical opinion the psych wrote of me, and due to it I'm aware he noticed I was having psychosis, cuz my speech was pretty incoherent at that time - i.e. when I was telling him one thing, I ended up telling another thing and had great difficulties concentrating on things.



Tau said:


> Your post is very interesting indeed...as I write in my post above, my uncle too experienced a sort of psychosis, and now he's fine, healthy and even rich...I really don't know what to think...psychosis scares me very much, but in these days I'm thinking about the true meaning of it, since I've read an article about a different view of psychosis for some people...what if for someone is not an illness, but more of... an experience? I really don't know.


What I could say, for me the psychotic break was more an experience than an illness - though I really couldn't study nor do other responsibilities while being psychotic. By the way, if you're interested in the creative/mythic side of psychosis, I may recommend one book. It is written by Jungian psychiatrist John Weir Perry, the name of the book is The Far Side of Madness. If you're interested, here an url, in which there is an interview of J.W. Perry:

http://www.global-vision.org/interview/perry.html

And - I think your English is very good, me too am not a native speaker, cuz I am a Finnish person.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2004)

ok, well now im lost.... i mean i know when people have psychosis they don't question it yet some retain some extent of insight....e.g during hallucinations....i guess it depends on the person and the extent of the psychosis...since i got into dp/dr ive wondered what the f happened to me....i know i wont be 100% blah blah but sometimes i do wonder whether i have somekinda psychosis...i have this other side...like a presence that follows me round..makes me paranoid...lotsa deja vu....i have seizures too...im not sure whether theyre psychogenic or TLE which makes everything more confusing...am waiting for some eeg results but i just feel like everythings going on and im there but im not there...sometimes im not there at all.....


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## falling_free (Nov 3, 2004)

> i have this other side...like a presence that follows me round..makes me paranoid...lotsa deja vu


I experience exactly the same kind of feeling, I often feel like there is some malignent force following me round, i mean I don't see this force but I kind of sometimes feel this horrible vibe and if I close my eyes I can just imagine a bogeyman near me, preety freaky and makes me uncomfartable. The force ultimatilly feels like its sucking my energy and makes me miserable , paranoid and makes me feel empty.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2004)

Hey Ninnu

Thanks for posting that great url about John Perry et al. I had the good fortune of doing Jungian based dream analysis for a while with a therapists who had been involved with Dr Perry at the Diabasis project. He was very knowledgeable about Jungian Philosophy and made one feel completely at ease,as though the symptoms that i was experiencing were completely understandable as expressions of Psyche in her "transformational movement" in my life.

Right now i am reading "The Holotropic Mind" by Stanislav Grof another fascinating perspective. My Jungian therapist used to say ( he moved out of the area) that he felt that involvement with the medical model should be ones last recourse. A sentiment i basically agree with as well.

Thanks again for posting that link.

John


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Hi John - thanks for thanks  I'm happy you found the url useful. Oh, you have a Jungian therapist, I wish I could afford that too... Sometimes I have thought, what might have happened if Finnish mental health care system was different, while I had the psychotic break. I mean, if there could have been a chance to join some Diabasis style project, might it have been possible that I could have recovered wholly; and got rid of DR too...?

I don't know, but I really see the current mainstream psychiatry kind of archaic and denying, when it comes to the human psyche and its functions - i.e. psychosis is considered only as a harmful and destructive illness that must be put in control with the aid of antipsychotics. I think it is sad, as there really could be a different approach toward the psychotic states of mind and the recovery process - J.W. Perry's Diabasis project during the 1970s has shown that already, let alone R.D. Laing's project in 1960s. And still the mainstream psychiatry is as it is, in denial with meds, meds, meds... :?

I got the chance to go to talk therapy in Espoonlahti psychiatric clinic, but I don't know how beneficial it may be for me. I doubt its beneficiality because I'm aware the therapist I got considers psychosis as a severe mental illness, which needs many years' (or even the rest of one's life) antipsychotic medication. I know one possibly doesn't need that long medication period, as my boyfriend has used antipsychotics just for a short period, while he suffered from paranoid thoughts/delusions. He stopped taking the meds after he started feeling better, and hasn't taken antipsychotics for ages now, and still has been perfectly healthy. That's why me too have thought to stop my medication slowly, since I will get my studies accomplished (hopefully in the next two years).

It is sad that the therapist considers the psychosis only as a mental illness, and not a natural way of recovery for the human psyche, as I wished to talk/ponder about my psychotic break with someone with a broader perspective (i.e. with Jungian approach). It would be nice to find reasons behind my delusional thoughts, which I had during my psychotic break - for example how and why I happened to experience certain kind of thoughts/hallucinations. It would be so nice to discuss those things with a person, who would have a backround in Jungian/transpersonal psychology. But Finland is a small country and the help one can get without paying a lot of money may not be the quality one would like to have, and I have to accept that.

So - I'll try this talk therapy and see if it is helpful or not, as I don't know about it yet... Indeed I shouldn't be so gloomy in the first place, as the therapy hasn't even started yet - at the moment I only have got the message that I am allowed to get into the therapy. :wink:


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2004)

Hi again Ninnu

Basically I agree with everything you said here.

I was very lucky to have found the Jungian therapist. He wasn't a "licensed therapist" by the way. He had a University degree in Philosophy. He told me that when he was certain he wanted to be a therapist he was confronted with two choices. Spend money for school expenses or spend the same money for undergoing a Jungian analysis. He chose the latter.

He had a lot of "hands on experience" working with psychotics and others experiencing an altered state. As I have mentioned previously in an earlier post among his clients were several "licensed therapists".

Becasue he was "unlicensed" he wasn't bound by the same restrictions regarding payment for the therapy sessions. For instance, in my case I paid for my sessions by doing gardening and lanscape work for him around his house. It was about a two and a half to one exchange in time spent. I mean that if we had a one hour session I would do two and a half hours of work for him. Often I would pay part of the session in cash and work off the rest. He charged fifty dollars an hour, (very reasonable) the last time I looked shrinks are charging like $100 dollars an hour or more! And often all they want to do is prescribe meds. They don't believe in the existence of the psyche and think all altered states are do to chemical imbalances etc.

Also another really great thing about our sessions was that he would make a tape recording of our sessions and give me a copy to keep for repeated listening at home. I learned alot by listening to these tapes over and over.

I think that studying on ones own can also have great therapeutic value.

I once took a afternoon class in keeping a "spiritual journal" which also helped me in my inward self explorations.

There is a medical clinic in my area which is supported by various government grants and state medical insurance covering those with low income where I see a general practioner periodically. Recently he told me that they had recieved a grant to cover the cost of paying for a "cognitive therapist" he said that if I wanted I could
see her for a certain number of sessions.

As I am trying to wean myself off of Xanax or at least reduce my intake and break free of habituation, I felt that some instruction in various relaxation techniques might be helpful. Well anyway I saw her yesterday but the sessions are only one half hour long so we spent the whole time just talking but next time she said that we will go over a variety of different types of techniques, visualization, body scanning for tension etc. So although she may not be all I would desire in a therapist I feel she may have something to offer me to improve the quality of my life.

So maybe you'll find that your therapist may prove helpful on some level or another.

The CT I will seeing is a "Certified Licensed Social Worker" sometimes a social worker may know as much as many therapists and not cost nearly as much.

With kind regards
john


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2004)

Ninnu

I reread your last post and realized yu were thinking I was seeing a Jungian Therapist currently. Well no I am not It has been several years (about five ) since I visted with him. Unfortunately he moved to the other side of the country. 
Want to know the really sad part? well once in a "negative transference rage" (?) I threw all the tapes we had made together into the wood stove. All were destroyed but one which I didn't grab because I didn't know it was still in the tape player. It is really too bad for listening to many of these sessions was like opening a window into my own unconcious and beyond.

oh well


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