# Is suicide justified



## AllmindnoBrain

Is suicide justified, if so then when do you think it is? I feel sometimes that i have done all that i can to feel better and rise above the dp/dr/ocd and negative thinking and nothing changes and if it does it is only shortlived. I am aware that this is the only life we have and i believe that nothing more comes after death, but i do think that suicide is a logical solution for some people. I feel at this point i bring more sadness to peoples lives than joy and my own life just isnt worth living anymore. I honestly feel that suicide is the logical conclusion to my life because my problems never dissolve, i am constantly haunted by them and i think i am too engraved in my way of thinking and percieving the world to change, even when i try so hard to. It is that little bit of hope that keeps me stuck here suffering, because i feel like what if it gets better someday. I have no reason to believe this anymore, it is just my survival gene giving me this false hope to keep me alive, i truely believe that i was never meant to be here anyway. I have nothing to give but my negative outlook that brings down other people, as im probably doing right now. You can say its selfish of me to do it, because i would be harming my family and maybe my friends, but then cant you say its selfish of them all these years to have kept me here. I just dont think i have the proper tools to survive, i simply am not the fittest. So I ask you sincerely, when is suicide justified?


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## Dreamer

Moving to General Mental Health Discussion.

Volatile topic, but it certainly deserves being freely debated.


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## Pablo

If you are thinking of suicide then you shouldnt trust your logical rational conclusions about your life. Ultimately your suicide will cause more suffering for other people than almost anything you do while you are alive.


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## EverDream

Hi,

I can really relate to everything you wrote. It's seems like something I could wrote myself, espeicaly last year. I truly understand your pain. I can understand why you feel like giving up. I mean, life is so hard for all of us. It's just so UNREAL (double meaning haha). Unfair.

I hate when people say, espeicaly those that can't understand your pain, that you are selfish, that you have to live for your family, etc. It's not fair saying it. It's your life, it's your pain.

I think you should give yourself another chance but make it different this time. Maybe it's weird but when I was deep in your situation, I told myself "I don't care anymore, I'm me, not me, feel, don't feel. I'll just try living. After all, I can kill myself anytime I want. It's allways there, I can always do it. So why now? I have to try again"

It's truly a battle. But you have to admit that there are also some nice things on life. There are people you love, people who care for you. That's amazing. Maybe you should even talk to them and tell them how much you love them, and that you are going to try again for you and also from them.

There must be more than this. I'm sure you'll get better. Don't give up yet. Take the time. Try again.

And we are here for you.

EverDream.


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## AllmindnoBrain

Part of me doesnt even want to make an attempt to get better, because everytime i reach a high i always fall down harder than the previous time, and it really hurts. I know life can be great, thats what bothers me so much, i feel like a child in a candy store with no money, i can see all the great things one can experience but cant take part in it, i have to suffer being an observer. Sometimes the thought of suicide makes me feel somewhat better, just knowing that if all else fails there is an ultimate "solution" I can take part in. The sad thing is (well all of this is), i dont think i love anyone, but i really want to.


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## coco33

My thoughts on suicide - I believe that people who commit suicide are *NOT* selfish but just couldn't bare the pain any longer. Mental pain is so much worse than any physical pain...though i think people who have never experienced mental pain will never understand that.

I just wish that people who committed suicide would have got help sooner because i do believe that everyone can be helped out of the mental pain they are in. There were times when i thought i couldn't stand the pain any longer and thought suicide was my only option, but in the end i always got better and was glad i never went through with it.

You will get better and you must not let your irrational thoughts convince you otherwise.....You have the tools to get through this. You are strong and not weak because you are fighting this every day. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. I promise you. It just doesnt look that way to you at the moment because your thoughts are confused.


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## CECIL

Suicide is a valid choice. That said, I don't think its the best option. There's always room to move and to heal. Life will never put you in situations that you can't deal with, you just have to find your own inner strength to do it.

Just set the intent to heal, the universe will do the rest


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## hotrille

HUGS ((((everyone))), I understand what you're all saying, and certainly suicide is an option (albeit a very sad one), but if someone were to contemplate suicide, I would much more prefer them to consider life and not death, even if I feel like I'm at my wits end and can't seem go on.


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## chris51

It's not the answer for anyone. It' a selfish act. I get it, the constant pain the feeling good part and then it's taking away from you. It's a roller coaster ride and some of life isn't fun. But look around ALOT of people have up and downs. I think we, people with DP, dwell on the thought, way too long. But god gave you this gift of life and who are you to take it from him. ALso, try real hard and focus on getting better. Be you. Live in the moment. Even with the downs. You never now what is around the corner.


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## coco33

I have to disagree with you Chris, i don't think a person can be considered selfish for reaching a point in their life where pain is so unbearable that they cannot go on. Its not fair to say they are selfish when I'm sure they thought about the loved ones they would leave behind and the hurt it would cause.....A tormented mind is agony in the extreme and although i wish these people got help before considering suicide i believe that they just couldn't take anymore.

*BTW - I am not saying suicide is the way out, i believe therapy and drugs WILL help you get better and live a relatively normal full-filling life.*


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## AllmindnoBrain

chris51 said:


> But god gave you this gift of life and who are you to take it from him.


If he gave me a gift and the free will to make a decision on ending it, then i am allowed to do so. Ill give him my receipt on meeting him, and ill buy another 'gift'. think about what you just said, because it makes no sense. Some higher being *gave* me life? that means i was already in existence somewhere floating around and then he decided to put me on earth to live, correct? If not this then he created me from scratch making me the equivalent of a fucking doll manufactured in a factory in wyoming. If this is the case then i am nothing but a slave to this superior being that created this body that i call me. I dont think theres any stronger way of demonstrating the existence of ones free will by suicide. It astonishes me that in this day and age with the amount of knowledge humans have and the enormous advances we have made scientifically and technologically that there still exists believers in god. I will make a bet in another 200 years or less not one person will believe in god anymore, the idea of god will dissapear.


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## PPPP

I can understand why people do it. I don't think it's justified though.
It's understandable but not justified.

There's always another way out. There's_ always_ something else you can try first before you resort to that.


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## Guest

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## kabus

people whom i love and who love me arent worth going on with this life. I dont think i love anyone and never will. people who love me (i dont think its me whom they love, only they consider that its me) are also meaningless. when they see my dead body they will percieve it as me but for me it was already detached from my soul long time ago, the body they will see did not belong to me. my mom says you are the prettiest girl among the girls i see along the day, she wants to make me feel better but it doesnt help in fact makes me worse not to own that body.


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## Guest

kabus said:


> people whom i love and who love me arent worth going on with this life. I dont think i love anyone and never will. people who love me (i dont think its me whom they love, only they consider that its me) are also meaningless. when they see my dead body they will percieve it as me but for me it was already detached from my soul long time ago, the body they will see did not belong to me. my mom says you are the prettiest girl among the girls i see along the day, she wants to make me feel better but it doesnt help in fact makes me worse not to own that body.


Connects have been made between loved ones with you, although your connection with them is so long? it dies down before it reaches your heart? this is because your soul and mind have distanced them selves in order to keep you safe from your past pain? or what ever triggered your DR/DP. My own connection has become closer and closer together ever since I started meds, I have close to no brain fog any longer which has limited my DR. I deserve love? and I ?will? have it within this life I have been given? I will not be denied was it rightfully mine!

You are with out hope, this is the reason for your post? In order to find hope, you must first believe in yourself? but to believe in yourself? the love you can not find from others, or give? it must be found from within yourself first; You need to love yourself for who you are regardless of your past? this is easy and rich for me to state with out knowing you, so please correctly my wrong assumptions of you, because I will be wrong, and so I wish to be placed right by you.

You mother states your pretty because she is proud of you, have you ever sensed the emotions of being proud of some one? I can remember it? and it is beautiful, and so? you aren?t just beautiful on the outside, you?re beautiful from within. Your mother?s pride comes from loving you, she cares for ?you?? the person who wears a mask? please allow her the day to see the ?you? with out the mask? she gave birth to you? she deserves this?

You owned your body from a distance while your autopilot takes control for you. You can move your own body as and like you wish? you have control over it, although if you have brain fog? you might feel as if you?re delaying in time with mind and soul? they are out of sync? yet even if they are out of sync, they are still connected? they are still part of you? you still have a warm heart which one day will warm other people?s hearts? You will become better? and when you do, you?ll be a better person for it.

You?re only at the beginning? don?t be so keen to lose track so quickly. We will help you and others get back onto track? we sympathize with you.

Take care and welcome to the board.

Darren.x


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## Adem

its never justified, its a straight ticket to hell, God will test you only with as much as you can handle, its up to you to stay strong and continue on and keep your faith and you can beat any obstacle that comes your way

Never, never, never give up. - Winston Churchill


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## Adem

i posted the same message twice, sorry


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## Guest

Emulated Puppet}eer said:


> Connects have been made between loved ones with you, although your connection with them is so long? it dies down before it reaches your heart? this is because your soul and mind have distanced them selves in order to keep you safe from your past pain? or what ever triggered your DR/DP. My own connection has become closer and closer together ever since I started meds, I have close to no brain fog any longer which has limited my DR. I deserve love? and I ?will? have it within this life I have been given? I will not be denied was it rightfully mine!
> 
> You are with out hope, this is the reason for your post? In order to find hope, you must first believe in yourself? but to believe in yourself? the love you can not find from others, or give? it must be found from within yourself first; You need to love yourself for who you are regardless of your past? this is easy and rich for me to state with out knowing you, so please correctly my wrong assumptions of you, because I will be wrong, and so I wish to be placed right by you.
> 
> You mother states your pretty because she is proud of you, have you ever sensed the emotions of being proud of some one? I can remember it? and it is beautiful, and so? you aren?t just beautiful on the outside, you?re beautiful from within. Your mother?s pride comes from loving you, she cares for ?you?? the person who wears a mask? please allow her the day to see the ?you? with out the mask? she gave birth to you? she deserves this?
> 
> You owned your body from a distance while your autopilot takes control for you. You can move your own body as and like you wish? you have control over it, although if you have brain fog? you might feel as if you?re delaying in time with mind and soul? they are out of sync? yet even if they are out of sync, they are still connected? they are still part of you? you still have a warm heart which one day will warm other people?s hearts? You will become better? and when you do, you?ll be a better person for it.
> 
> You?re only at the beginning? don?t be so keen to lose track so quickly. We will help you and others get back onto track? we sympathize with you.
> 
> Take care and welcome to the board.
> 
> Darren.x


^ check that out... that's the real me =) I'm MR nice when people listen to me.


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## Guest

Oh but look... they didn't reply to my effects... why the hell do I even bother? or migth I say... why "did" I bother? :x

Do the math.


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## Conjurus

I definately know how it feels to seriously consider suicide. I've attempted it one time before and failed because I didnt understand how to do it properly. It was a school night and I took 20 800mg pills of Ibprufen. I left a note letting my mom know not to bother waking me because I was dead. Well I woke up throwing up and got sick, but I was fine. My mother cried and cried and cried when she found out what I had attempted to do. She blamed herself and it was just awful. I realized then what it would do to my family.

Eventually I felt better. I didnt want suicide anymore. I had plans, I had things I wanted to do. Then later on again, I slipped into wanting to commit suicide. It got very very bad. I realized that I had two little brothers that looked up to me and loved me and how much it could destroy them if I did something to myself. I went to a tattoo parlor and got their names on my arms in japanese lettering as a permanent reminder of who cared for me. Every time I had suicidal thoughts I looked down at my arms and remembered. I could not give up. I had to go on- for them.

As of right now Im feeling great. I feel more alive and real than ever but just a couple days ago I felt horrible and depressed. I could feel awful tomorrow, but I will not give up. I believe it's all in my head and I will control it. I will be the one that decides how I feel. I will not let myself give up.

Don't give up.


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## doctor61

no to suicide.fight it, win it, live life.


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## invisible.ink

I haven't read all of the replies, nor do I plan to. Just wanted to add my own view.
I think suicide being "justified" or not is completely irrelevant. Would you ask if someone if someone dying from cancer was justifiable? No, you would not. Suicide is a symptom, the _final_ though not inevitable symptom, of a very serious mental illness.
My uncle John committed suicide on January 19, 2006. Then my best friend, Shane, committed suicide on September 20, 2007. A lot of "well meaning" individuals made comments to me that seriously bothered me. Things like "He was being selfish" or "People who commit suicide deserve to die".
If you are in so much pain that you would rather DIE, which goes against every survival instinct in you, than live one more moment, then you are not in a state of mind to think of how your actions will affect others. That's the key there. People who kill themselves _are not in their right mind_. I'm not saying they're "nuts" or "insane" or whatever, they're just not in a healthy state of mind. A healthy mind would do everything to prevent death, not the reverse.
/rant


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## AllmindnoBrain

I dont agree. I think there have been many cases where a person makes the logical and lucid decision to leave the theater before the credits roll. Not every person who has commited suicide was unwell in the mind, a lot of people do have the ability to think it through and make an informed CHOICE. If suicide isn't an inevitable symptom of a mental illenss as you say then there are people who are sick who make the decision to not go through with it, which people with cancer don't have the fortune of making that decision. Many people still have control over what they do.


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## invisible.ink

I'm not saying that people who commit suicide have no free will and by default do not make the choice. Of course, they make the choice. But just as you can make a choice when you're drunk to do something doesn't mean it's a choice you'd make if you were sober (bad analogy, I know but you get the gist).
And generally people in that frame of mind do think it through, A LOT. My friend's suicide was intricately planned. He gave away all of his possessions beforehand (something that should've been a warning sign but he only gifted me one item and I didn't find out about the rest until afterwards), sold his Xbox 360 to fund the gun and then drove 50 miles away to do it under a bridge in a town in the next state. But he still was seriously and dangerously depressed. 
If you've ever been depressed you can understand that you become obsessed with certain things. Death, life, love or lack thereof. You think about them all the time, ruminating. He was obsessed with suicide like many others in that state of mind. Just because you THINK it through does not mean that it is a healthy and "normal" thought process or that you have 100% control of your thoughts.
When I was depressed I thought I had a brain tumor and lung cancer for no reason! I wasn't thinking straight. It made sense in my mind at the time but looking back what the hell was I thinking, y'know? It sounds crazy to me now.


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## stephanie3

i absolutely do not think suicide is justified in a dp/dr/ocd situation!!! you are right this is our only life!!! we should never take that for granted no matter how much it seems hopeless there seriously is a light at the end of the tunnel! i really dont know how bad yours is but i really think some cbtherapy can help... have you tried ALL of your options? from any and all meds to talking to a phycologist i mean seriously suicide will cause more bad than good.. not to you of course but think about your family and friends im sure it'll devistate them. your life is worth living so PLEASE dont do anything rash talk to someone anyone just get some help!!

you said you dont believe in any type of after life but i do and if you commit suicide you're going to end up in a worse place and way than you are now!!!!!!!!!


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## AllmindnoBrain

stephanie3 said:


> suicide will cause more bad than good.. not to you of course but think about your family and friends im sure it'll devistate them. your life is worth living so PLEASE dont do anything rash talk to someone anyone just get some help!!
> 
> you said you dont believe in any type of after life but i do and if you commit suicide you're going to end up in a worse place and way than you are now!!!!!!!!!


I dont think that you should continue on living if you are in a state of unbearable chronic despair just not to upset your family and friends. I haven't and i probably never will do the deed because of the uncertainty of my future, I have no way of knowing how my life is going to turn out. I could be content and complacent with my life some time down the line and it is this undeniable possibility that has kept me here through the difficult times.

You honestly believe that you will end up in hell if you commit suicide? If there is a hell then that means there is a god, which if it exists wouldn't allow for anybody to be punished for ETERNITY for acts they commited in the by comparison very brief time they journey'd the earth. A belief in hell is for people who lack self-restraint and need to have the prospect of eternal punishment in order to continue on a righteous path. I dont need that fear to abide by a moral code. There lies the dilemma though, with out hell how can their be heaven otherwise why shouldn't everybody off themselves so that they can be in a happy place for eternity. The concept of heaven and hell /afterlife just don't make sense to me.


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## Conjurus

AllmindnoBrain said:


> stephanie3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> suicide will cause more bad than good.. not to you of course but think about your family and friends im sure it'll devistate them. your life is worth living so PLEASE dont do anything rash talk to someone anyone just get some help!!
> 
> you said you dont believe in any type of after life but i do and if you commit suicide you're going to end up in a worse place and way than you are now!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> I dont think that you should continue on living if you are in a state of unbearable chronic despair just not to upset your family and friends. I haven't and i probably never will do the deed because of the uncertainty of my future, I have no way of knowing how my life is going to turn out. I could be content and complacent with my life some time down the line and it is this undeniable possibility that has kept me here through the difficult times.
> 
> You honestly believe that you will end up in hell if you commit suicide? If there is a hell then that means there is a god, which if it exists wouldn't allow for anybody to be punished for ETERNITY for acts they commited in the by comparison very brief time they journey'd the earth. A belief in hell is for people who lack self-restraint and need to have the prospect of eternal punishment in order to continue on a righteous path. I dont need that fear to abide by a moral code. There lies the dilemma though, with out hell how can their be heaven otherwise why shouldn't everybody off themselves so that they can be in a happy place for eternity. The concept of heaven and hell /afterlife just don't make sense to me.
Click to expand...

I am a Christian but the concept of eternal punishment in hell just seems too harsh. I think something must have got lost in translation... anyway I also believe that if you are saved there's nothing you can do to send you to hell, including suicide. As a Christian, if I kill myself yes I'd go to heaven- as to why I dont- well for one thing I do believe it's a sin, but more importantly I just love my family too much and I know it'd hurt them.


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## invisible.ink

I have to agree with allmindnobrain and Conjurus. If there is a God and he is all loving like the Bible claims, wouldn't he be more compassionate towards someone with a mental illness that they couldn't control? Someone who was in deep emotional pain? Why would he send them to hell for all eternity because of that? But that's a question for the spirituality debate forum.


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## stephanie3

i think its fine that we all have a diferent outlook and have different beliefs, but conjurus i truely AM a christian and i dont know any christian that doesnt believe that if you commit suicide you dont go to hell!! yes its true that if you believe in God and are saved there's a place for you in heaven and sins are forgiven but suicide is a mortal sin and how can you be forgiven if you'rs not truely sorry? that being said... i really dont think this is that right forum to debate this.

oh ya one more thing, so are you all basically saying its perfectly fine for this person to kill them selves? without even offering any advice to them? you're more worried about what i'm saying when in all actuality you should be telling them to seek help, thats what these forums are for right?!?!?!?


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## Conjurus

I dont really want to debate anymore...I've got my fill in the evolution debates. I've always thought that if someone believes something there's a slim chance anything you say to them will change their mind- I believe that even more so now. Not only that but what's the point? Let people believe what they want- it's their life, their decision.

Look at page 2 of this topic stephanie- I am trying to help this person. Im definately not trying to tell them to commit suicide. Life can be really harsh sometimes, but there are answers. There is hope. There is more.

I know it may not seem like it now, but I've been there. I was 100% completely sure I wanted no part of life anymore... but now I know I wouldnt want it any other way. I have so much going for me now. I weathered the storm. I made it. You can make it through this- we're here for you.

*hugs*


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## Guest

Conjurus said:


> the concept of eternal punishment in hell just seems too harsh. I think something must have got lost in translation....


I often say it is possible that some of the bible was translated wrongly and so it could be misinterpreted, I have never heard a christian say the same thing. Of course I do not mean any disrespect to christians, but it was refreshing to hear a christian say what you have said.


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## Conjurus

Spirit said:


> Conjurus said:
> 
> 
> 
> the concept of eternal punishment in hell just seems too harsh. I think something must have got lost in translation....
> 
> 
> 
> I often say it is possible that some of the bible was translated wrongly and so it could be misinterpreted, I have never heard a christian say the same thing. Of course I do not mean any disrespect to christians, but it was refreshing to hear a christian say what you have said.
Click to expand...

Im not sure that there is another Christian that looks at things the way I do Lynsey


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## Guest

Conjurus said:


> Im not sure that there is another Christian that looks at things the way I do Lynsey


Well that just shows that we are all different and that we can not put people in boxes.  
So this is still on topic I will say, I agree that God, whatever our definition is..and I have said this before.....A loving God would not send anyone to hell. It doesnt make sence. Personally I think it is personal responsibility , you should live for you because you deserve the chance of finding a happy life. When we only live out of fear of going to hell etc...It keeps us perpetually unhappy and unsatisfied within ourselves. You have to find self love-its not wrong to do that.


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## SistA HazeL

Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell


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## Rein

SistA HazeL said:


> Read this:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell


ey i`m already there


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## hurricane12

suicide isnt the answer. i felt sucidal before i regret it because my suicidal thoughts made me put myself in danger 
and now im stuck with this dp/dr crap when i could of been living a normal life. all i can say is that you dont know what happens after you die you could be worse off so why take the chance. and even attempting or thinking about it will put you in a worser place then you are now. i really dont think it matters whether its justified or not but what matters is do you really want to gamble your life away death is something u cant take back. and we may have only one life so why not live that life and go with the flow. who knows one day things will be back to normal and youll be glad you didnt do it.


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## Guest

stephanie3 said:


> oh ya one more thing, so are you all basically saying its perfectly fine for this person to kill them selves? without even offering any advice to them?


Nobody from the forum can truly help a suicidal person. That is not what the forum is for. The only thing we can do for a suicidal person is encourage them to get the appropriate help. Its unfortunate sure, but we arent responsible if somebody chooses to take their life. I believe the site admin does not wish for suicide to be discussed on the forum, I used to disagree with that, but now I can see it is sensible. Thats just the way it is.


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## Anla

I believe that each of us have a creative purpose for our existence here. So then our bodies are here for that purpose. So we discover our unique self, our creative purpose, and attempt to share it.
If we are in pain, we can seek help.
But if we choose to remove ourself from here, we also remove our own creative self. 
So we can instead choose to seek help and attempt to share our unique selves.
Life has been very messed up for me for 10 years now, but I am still hanging around trying to share my creativity. I am teaching hs sped students to read, spell, and write. Some of them choose to work hard and learn a lot. Guess I will stay here.


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## Guest

Conjurus said:


> Im not sure that there is another Christian that looks at things the way I do Lynsey


I DO. I think that once you ask Jesus into your heart, HES IN THERE AND HES NOT LEAVING, Although I do not condone suicide even though ive thought about it, I believe that if you truly think you can't take it anymore, and you are scared and your saved and Jesus lives inside you, I dont think you will go to Hell. But cry out to him FIRST, and if he dosen't respond and you snap and cant take it anymore and you commit the unthinkable, I dont believe you will go to hell.People can only endure SOOO much. Although after you do it and you see Jesus, I think hed say come'on, you could have held on, I gave you the strengh to, that wasnt neccesary. And to the person who started this thread here are a couple of vids that my give you some hope. :wink:










 

Hang in there and PLEASE DONT give up, you have a HUGE purpose, PLEASE believe that, ill pray for you friend. Jesus loves you VERY much even if you don't believe in him, and he dosent want to see you give up, you have the power like all of us to persevere. :wink:


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## Deja_vu_256

What's ONE life of hell??? who knows, you might make it out better than ever. I am willing to spend my life_ trying_ to get better, even if their is a small chance of success. i can remember one specific day that my head was turning and turning (as it had almost everyday for years). i was trying to make sense of everything - could i ever get better? i didn't even know what i was fighting for, i feel no joy, no pleasure, no duty (even though i have quite the pile up), no hope. i wasn't contemplating suicide, but i was trying desperately to figure out a logical reason for my to keep going.

i saw no meaning in anything. - whats the meaning of life?

have children? - for what? inflict pain, suffering? or perhaps because the world needs more people (ha ha)

i see no meaning in people, in life, in anything! i've spent years trying to find meaning... i've spent years suffering, not always knowing up from down (or myself from pickle)

but i know that all these things SHOULD matter. because everyone else says so? no. dumb reason. It's because that is the only good possibility. if life is precious and meaningful like everyone else feels that it is, then that's incredible.

it's kinda like Pascal's wager, which ever we choose, we might be out of luck, but believing that it does matter is our ONLY CHANCE TO HAVE A GOOD OUTCOME

so one day i decided that sure i've suffered more than i can bare, but if it really dosn't matter than why not hold out till the end of my life? if it all still sucks and nothing ever got better, so what, i'm gunna die sooner or later. That was my settlement, stick around and deal with it because i'll get to die one day anyways... and for some damn reason, that was a load off my shoulders... i felt a little better...

now that i decided that, i don't really have to worry anymore, because i'll accepted a life of hell (if i have too) - and who knows, maybe this view will help me recover because i don't have to worry about as much anymore

If i recover, my reward will be more than i could ever imagine. the gift we all have is a real chance at a FULL RECOVERY. Why give that up? i know i don't have alot of energy for anything, but i'm gunna try and help everyone i can while i'm here too...


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## Ayato

Perfectly justified. It's your body, your life. Life isn't inherently precious in my opinion. It's neither good nor bad. Personally I don't do it because the pros outweight the cons. And i'll have plenty of time for nonexistence later.


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## Guest

I believe that this should be a right and a choice that we have. Never in my entire life have I truly wanted to die, until recently. Granted, I haven't given myself enough time or explored enough treatments to justify saying that I absolutely will never get better. But the point is that I now understand people who want to die. I now see that it is actually illegal to take your own life and that many life insurance companies will not give your family your benefits if you kill yourself. That seems so wrong. I know that this is going to sound horrible but I think people with terminal illnesses actually have an advantage over us. If they decide that they are just tired of being sick and tired of fighting, they can just let their bodies do the work and they die. But for people with mental disease, we do not actually have something that is life threatening. We are forced to live daily with the hell inside of our minds and have no choice for a way out. If we do everything possible, try every medication and therapy and we still find no relief and are truly tortured, I think that we should be able to make the choice to end our lives. True, we could just go and do it anyways, if we really really wanted to but then that would leave our relatives or friends or whoever is close to us with thousands of dollars of medical and funeral expenses to pay.


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## darkth

^I agree, legally it should be a right and a choice we have, since it is impossible to have the same concerning being created. While others should have a say in people's (allleged) right in creating new lives, no one should have a say in my right to die. If you think it has a purpose to you, you are being a selfish prick and infringing on my natural rights.

@tinyfairypeople: anyone can let their bodies do the work and die, it's just harder for comparatively healthy people because they'll have to starve to death, have organ failure and somehow avoid being "saved" by the health systems in the process. In I can't say how long, I'm either going to choose a cause, give an ultimatum to an agent/exploiter/whatever and when my cause hasn't been respected, starve myself to death; or I'm going to apply(?) for euthanasia with my state on the basis of the DPD. It's utterly ironic: my entire (mature thinking) life I have wanted to die but I never had a 'valid' reason or I had more important responsabilities. Since I have the disorder, I haven't been suicidal at all, although I have all the reasons to and I have given up on my responsibilities. I say go dig a hole in a forest and you get urself an eco-burial; or go to the desert and let the scavengers eat you after/as you die.


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## Harleystreet

how could u say that?

Harely Street Psychotherapist


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## darkth

How could who say what Harleystreet?


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## Ivan Hawk

Depends on the culture.

I believe in few rare cases where immediate death is extremely close and will be extremely painful for a very long time with no options left whatsoever - going out in a dream would definitely save that pain.

Or if someone is dying on life support and is still conscious to say they didn't want life support so they pull the plug themself (insistent!) , it's debatable if that's even suicide or choice of a natural speed of death when death was already in the process of occurring but was merely delayed.


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## m&m

When I was 10, my father took his life. As far as we know, there was nothing wrong with him, no signs, not even a message of intent. If there was something wrong with him, his choice was not a rational decision, I don't label this right or wrong, just a tragedy, as such something to be avoided. Who can really know the trauma occurring within someone's mind?

I actually worked with a man who shot himself, sat working next to him for several months just before he did it. I don't recall any signs that he was suffering. He never said he wanted to die or that he wanted to kill himself.

I also knew a woman who after her husband death, pined away, depending on how you look at it, slow suicide. She probably died because she stopped taking care of herself.

Suicide manifest itself in may ways.

However, I say choose life. There's no turning back from death. (as my barber says, "if I don't cut it short enough now I can cut more off later, but I can't put it back on after I cut it off.) Live another day with us. My father's death still affects me 40 years later.

PS: No, I don't believe in hellfire or purgatory.


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## m&m

Conjurus said:


> I am a Christian but the concept of eternal punishment in hell just seems too harsh. I think something must have got lost in translation...


The old English word hell comes from helan, and means to cover or conceal. Similar words coming from the same root have a similar meaning.
No fire here.


http://atheistblogger.com/2008/11/30/what-the-bible-really-teaches-about-hell/


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## Guest

m&m said:


> The old English word hell comes from helan, and means to cover or conceal. Similar words coming from the same root have a similar meaning.
> No fire here.
> 
> 
> http://atheistblogger.com/2008/11/30/what-the-bible-really-teaches-about-hell/


The bible was written in hebrew, aramaic, and greek.

I don't think that the literal translation of the original words apply. The original translation applies to the words used for hell which basically all boil down to grave or underworld. I think you have to look at the specific description of hell in the bible to find out if it is a firey pit of torture.

"Matthew 18:9
And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell."

Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

James 3:6
The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 20:15
If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


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## Guest

suicide is painless, it brings on many changes. no but seriously, suicide is always justified. its your own life.


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## Variable Pitch

When is suicide justified? When its a medicly proven fact that thers abosulutely, positively no way the individual in question can lead any sort of quality or reasonably independant life such as terminal cancer, can't live with massive support of sophitiscated machinery, vegetable level of brain activity or dire situations such as those where the person would rather go out with a bit of dignity than subject their loved ones to watching them waste away to a drooling shell of what they used to be. Now having said that, I assume what your REALLY looking for is validation that your suicidal acts and desires are justified: The short answer is No. I hope to tell you and show you with words why.

It's not because life is a gift or God punishes those that take their own life or reasoning along those lines. You don't belive that from what I gather from your posts. It only makes a person feeling bad feel worse for thinking it in the first damn place. I don't believe that myself either. I don't know why intelligent life is here personally, still looking into the facts of evolution versus creation, and there is logical conclusions for both. But thats a bit beside the point. The point is that your situation is NOT written on the wall, is NOT 100% uncurable and if you can hold out long enough the odds of you finding a calm in this storm have no where to go but up. I know because I was in a similar situation as yourself. I had no hope for any sort of future for myself, spent literally months holed up in the dark confines of my own room sleeping roughly 15 hours a day and absolutely convinced, CONVINCED in my heart that their was no hope for me, no love on this earth for a fat, depressed, introverted broken young adult who grew up learning firsthand and fast that the only person who can help you is yourself, and to trust another to your private world is to only invite pain when they leave or betray you trust. And they most assuradly will leave or betray your trust. For years I felt like this. And on a few occasions, I tried to end my existance. But I never was succsesfull (obviously I guess, eh?). I think there was some small part of me that still held on to hope that things can get better, no matter how much I told myself that to hope is to lie to yourslef. That there was some small part of me that stayed my hand of those last few sleeping pills, or that one little kink in the hose leading from my car to the passanger side window. Or the utility knife against flesh. And you know what? Despite what I thought, I kept slogging through the half-life that comes with a bad hand at happiness and gradually, imperceptibly slowly as I matured those feelings lessened and lessened.

Is life perfect now? Hell no. I still have small steps backward into the morass of negative thought and inactivity and small panick that comes with a condition like this. I still have a hard time trusting and getting close to the people I find around me. Still unsure if I'll every find a woman who can see me underneath the layers of black humor and defences I've bulit up over the years. Got years of shifting from one job to another every few months that I'm gonna have to lie through my teeth about to get solid, regular employemnet. But that's not really important to me right now. Pretty sure I can handle that because despite everything I grew up around, despite all the crap that's been storming around inside my skull for years whispering dark thoughts I am getting better at this whole living thing. It took a massive amount of time, but for the first time since I was six and I watched my dad waste to cancer and my mom waste to food and alchohol I know what its like to be happy again, to have a bit of energy, to want the company of others and feel the burden of depression and a thousand other worries and fears lift a little. To go back to school and try to better myself for a future. It's really, really nice. So when your at the bottom and got some fight left in ya, there's no where else to go but up, eh? I hope you read this. If every single other self indulgent post I've made on this site comes to nothing for anoyone, I won't care if this one can keep one sad bastard from making the same mistake I almost did on multiple occasions. Because something like this isn't incurable, no matter how much you might feel like it is. The mind is a very stubborn animal. : )


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## insaticiable

Efus Pitch said:


> When is suicide justified? When its a medicly proven fact that thers abosulutely, positively no way the individual in question can lead any sort of quality or reasonably independant life such as terminal cancer, can't live with massive support of sophitiscated machinery, vegetable level of brain activity or dire situations such as those where the person would rather go out with a bit of dignity than subject their loved ones to watching them waste away to a drooling shell of what they used to be. Now having said that, I assume what your REALLY looking for is validation that your suicidal acts and desires are justified: The short answer is No. I hope to tell you and show you with words why.
> 
> It's not because life is a gift or God punishes those that take their own life or reasoning along those lines. You don't belive that from what I gather from your posts. It only makes a person feeling bad feel worse for thinking it in the first damn place. I don't believe that myself either. I don't know why intelligent life is here personally, still looking into the facts of evolution versus creation, and there is logical conclusions for both. But thats a bit beside the point. The point is that your situation is NOT written on the wall, is NOT 100% uncurable and if you can hold out long enough the odds of you finding a calm in this storm have no where to go but up. I know because I was in a similar situation as yourself. I had no hope for any sort of future for myself, spent literally months holed up in the dark confines of my own room sleeping roughly 15 hours a day and absolutely convinced, CONVINCED in my heart that their was no hope for me, no love on this earth for a fat, depressed, introverted broken young adult who grew up learning firsthand and fast that the only person who can help you is yourself, and to trust another to your private world is to only invite pain when they leave or betray you trust. And they most assuradly will leave or betray your trust. For years I felt like this. And on a few occasions, I tried to end my existance. But I never was succsesfull (obviously I guess, eh?). I think there was some small part of me that still held on to hope that things can get better, no matter how much I told myself that to hope is to lie to yourslef. That there was some small part of me that stayed my hand of those last few sleeping pills, or that one little kink in the hose leading from my car to the passanger side window. Or the utility knife against flesh. And you know what? Despite what I thought, I kept slogging through the half-life that comes with a bad hand at happiness and gradually, imperceptibly slowly as I matured those feelings lessened and lessened.
> 
> Is life perfect now? Hell no. I still have small steps backward into the morass of negative thought and inactivity and small panick that comes with a condition like this. I still have a hard time trusting and getting close to the people I find around me. Still unsure if I'll every find a woman who can see me underneath the layers of black humor and defences I've bulit up over the years. Got years of shifting from one job to another every few months that I'm gonna have to lie through my teeth about to get solid, regular employemnet. But that's not really important to me right now. Pretty sure I can handle that because despite everything I grew up around, despite all the crap that's been storming around inside my skull for years whispering dark thoughts I am getting better at this whole living thing. It took a massive amount of time, but for the first time since I was six and I watched my dad waste to cancer and my mom waste to food and alchohol I know what its like to be happy again, to have a bit of energy, to want the company of others and feel the burden of depression and a thousand other worries and fears lift a little. To go back to school and try to better myself for a future. It's really, really nice. So when your at the bottom and got some fight left in ya, there's no where else to go but up, eh? I hope you read this. If every single other self indulgent post I've made on this site comes to nothing for anoyone, I won't care if this one can keep one sad bastard from making the same mistake I almost did on multiple occasions. Because something like this isn't incurable, no matter how much you might feel like it is. The mind is a very stubborn animal. : )


*sigh* Wow...just wow. I really didnt think id be able to read this whole thing, as my head is ridiculously foggy and my vision is blurry too atm, but I am so glad I did. Usually when I read hopeful, uplifting posts on here they don't quite hit home, but reading this tonight...and im not lying when i say this...truly inspired me. maybe because it came straight from the heart, that's what I gather. Happy I read this.


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## hanniballexster

AllmindnoBrain said:


> Is suicide justified, if so then when do you think it is? I feel sometimes that i have done all that i can to feel better and rise above the dp/dr/ocd and negative thinking and nothing changes and if it does it is only shortlived. I am aware that this is the only life we have and i believe that nothing more comes after death, but i do think that suicide is a logical solution for some people. I feel at this point i bring more sadness to peoples lives than joy and my own life just isnt worth living anymore. I honestly feel that suicide is the logical conclusion to my life because my problems never dissolve, i am constantly haunted by them and i think i am too engraved in my way of thinking and percieving the world to change, even when i try so hard to. It is that little bit of hope that keeps me stuck here suffering, because i feel like what if it gets better someday. I have no reason to believe this anymore, it is just my survival gene giving me this false hope to keep me alive, i truely believe that i was never meant to be here anyway. I have nothing to give but my negative outlook that brings down other people, as im probably doing right now. You can say its selfish of me to do it, because i would be harming my family and maybe my friends, but then cant you say its selfish of them all these years to have kept me here. I just dont think i have the proper tools to survive, i simply am not the fittest. So I ask you sincerely, when is suicide justified?


Hello Allmindnobrain (btw, I think you must certainly have a brain!) Did you know that Dp and DR used to be mainly associated with philosophers who thought too deeply- Sartre called it "the filth", William James called it "The Sick Soul", etc...

Is suicide justifiable? My personal opinion is that every human is capable of suicide (I am not sure if its a "right" as such, because the whole issue of "rights" seems to only come up in conversations about human beings, as if we are removed from the natural world and aren't animals- we are animals- kingdom animalia).

I am agnostic, I'll tell you that right off the bat. By that, I mean that I don't follow the rules and rites of any one religion and I have no way of knowing whether or not there is a God, an afterlife, whether free will or fate is in chare (or a combination of both), etc.... however, in my gut, I believe in souls and I also believe on faith in reincarnation. I can't explain WHY I do, I just do.

For me, thinking about the possibility that we are on a journey, that we have a soul and an afterlife and are here on Earth to learn lessons has helped me put some of the harder stuff in my life in perspective, its given me a sense of peace (even if I am wrong, and ultimately we don't have a soul and we just die, that sense of peace is something I consider positive). With my Dr I became more interested in near-death experiences and reading about past life experiences documented in young children, as well as in movies regarding reincarnation like "Audrey Rose".

This is probably the only life you will live as YOU (again, who knows? I don't), with your exact personality type and genetic makeup. But what if there is an eternal you, something infinitely wiser? What if learning to deal with DP is a lesson you're supposed to learn? I am not trying to scare you out of suicide, just pose questions you may not have considered.

The thing I have learned about life, if I have have learned anything, is that its unpredictable. My DR came on over night, with no warning. It might leave just as suddenly and inexplicably, and believe me, I have been severely depressed and thought morbid thoughts before. But something is keeping you fighting and asking these questions... there is a strength in you, incredible strength.

Sometimes my way of responding to something someone writes is to give them an example of something from my own life. In my own life, I have almost died many times (not by suicide, by accidents, near misses, enough of them-)- I am talking extremely close calls. So close that I still find it hard to believe I am still here sometimes (one time I was almost hit by a semi truck when I was riding my bike as a teenager, another time a semi almost hit me again because it ran a red light and it left the dirt from its door on my jacket. I've had at least 10 REALLY close calls like that and it makes me wonder- how can those ALL be coincidences?

Depression is really hard (that's an understatement). But depression is also a medical illness that distorts logical thinking and impairs your thinking. You wouldn't drive drunk (I hope), because your judgment is impaired, right? Suicide is the end of THIS life, its a very serious matter. Morally, i think its neutral, I don't believe people who kill themselves go to Hell, but it is serious. I think everyone can agree on that.

if there is even 1 chance in 100000000000000 that this might go, that you might get through it and recover, than suicide is illogical because suicide is permanent. I realize you don't want to suffer anymore and feel at your wit's end. I hope you are getting some sort of help for your depression (I've even read that extreme refractory depression can cause Depersonalization and Derealization).

Another thing to consider is how fast medical technology is progressing. Less than 50 years ago Cancer was considered a death sentence. Almost no one survived it. Now, a lot of people recover, even from advanced, metatastic cancers. Medical technology and knowledge is growing right now at a tremendous rate. Think about all the technological advancements that have occured since, say, 1968. We ventured into outer space, set foot on the moon, developed air craft than can travel faster than the speed of sound... those are some non-medical examples, but medicine is advancing right NOW at a faster rate than at any other point in history. Who knows? In 5 months someone might discover exactly what part of the brain controls DP/DR and find a cure for it. An actual, working cure. it might be in a year, or 2, or longer. But you don't know.

If you give up after all youu have suffered through already, than all your suffering, from the way I look at it, was for no reason. But if you hang on and get better (even if you never are fully cured, even if you get significantly better and ENJOY life MOST of the time) think of how great that will be!

Please don't give up. You may be depressed, and yes, it hurts to see loved ones depressed, but most depressed people think that other people would be "better off without them" because they, themselves feel so low. I don't know you or your friends or your family so I can't say I know for 100%, but the odds are your friends and loved ones really care and love you, even if they might not know how to help you or what to say.

I'm a stranger and the fact that you exist, that you wrote this, that you are so down... I want to inspire you to hold on! You are inherently valuable and an intrinsic part of the universe. Without you, the universe would be incomplete- that's why you exist! You were MEANT to exist.

Please get help for your depression. I know you probably know the drill about phoning 911 or getting emergency help in a crisis, but its a cliche because its true. You can never take back suicide. Ever. Is suicide justified? I don't know how to answer that. You have every right to your emotions. You have every right to feel as bad as you do, to be this low. The horrible thing about depression is that, like cancer, it feeds on itself. You can spiral down and down in it until you feel like there is no light left, maybe even convince yourself there never was any light to begin with. But there is light (hope)- utter black despair like yours can't exist on its own- darkness would cease to be darkness without light, without that juxtaposition.

Likewise, you feeling so bad, so awful, so depressed is PROOF of how alive you are, of how capable you are of feeling, eventually, all the beauty and joy life has as well. You've done so well and been so strong to make it so far and not give up and reach out for help.

But as to your original question, is it justified? I think that's a philosophical question, something that can never be answered with our limited, finite minds and experiences. The universe is infinite which, to me, implies there are infinite possibilities.

I don;t know how to end this response because 3 years ago I was as low as you and nothing pulled me out of it. I wasn't in the black hole yeet (death) I was in the event horizon, being sucked in. I survived (obviously) and on my bad days I wonder why I struggle so hard but always, always inside of me I KNOW I HAVE to. That its the purpose of life itself.

As long as you are alive, there is hope. There is no hope for the dead.

Please take care of yourself. <3 Alex

P.S. You might think hope is ultimately leading you to suffer more. Maybe try thinking of it differently if you can... suffering is its wn thing. Hope, true hope, by definition, is supposed to ultimately give you a sense of peace on some level. Maybe you're not feeling hope, but ambivalence? I don't think its just evolution trying to keep you here because the purpose of evolution truly is to weed out the weakest animals- survival of the fittest. You have depression, severe depression, which is a disease, but you are actively fighting it. That's not weak. That's maybe the hardest thing to do in life (one of the hardest things for sure!)

Yes, also, if your friends and loved ones were keeping you around because they would miss you and they weren't thinking of you, I agree, that would be selfish. In some parts of the world (even some parts of the US) medical euthanasia is avaailable for those that are basically guaranteed to die. I think if your loved ones are keeping you around its not because they are being selfish but because maybe they see a strength in you, and a future for you, that you can't see right now.


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