# B12 deficiency



## mrt (Dec 10, 2011)

I'm pretty sure a fairly large percent of us are going to have a B12 deficiency. I also have a low blood platelet count, which can also be a sign of B12 deficiency and my doctor refused to test me! (because the cells themselves weren't enlarged)

It turns out that may be a good thing, as the standard B12 serum test not only has the lower end of 'normal' set very low (110 ng/1) but is not a true reflection of usable B12. 'Inactive' B12, unusable for your body can count for up to 80% of this reading. So, even if you've been tested, you could still have a deficiency! And if you fall into this category, you really need injections to resolve it.

I've ordered a private 'Active' B12 blood test, I'm actually hoping its low as would provide an answer to all this. I'll update again once I have the results,

I happened across this story...

"I felt I was stuck in a dream, or underwater" "I felt drunk without having had a drink" "I feel as though I'm 20 seconds behind"

http://www.mamamia.com.au/symptoms-of-vitamin-b12-deficiency/

Here's a (very long) list of possible symptoms..


Tinnitus
Tremor
Paresthesia - numbness, tingling and pain
Confusion / disorientation
Weakness of legs, arms, trunk
Impaired vibration - position sense
Abnormal reflexes
Unsteady or abnormal gait / falls
Ataxia (Neurological disorder affecting balance, coordination and speech)
Balance problems
Difficulty walking
Dizziness
Restless legs
Visual disturbances / decreased-blurred vision / damage of optic nerve
Forgetfulness, memory loss
Dementia / intellectual deterioration
Impotence
Paralysis
Impaired fine motor coordination
Muscular spasticity
Bladder or bowel incontinence
Impaired pain perception
Nocturnal cramping
Disturbance in taste and smell
Optic atrophy
 Neuropsychiatric 

Confusion/disorientation
Psychosis
Post natal depression
Hallucinations
Memory loss
Delusion
Depression
Suicidal ideation
Mania
Anxiety
Paranoia
Irritability
Apathy
Personality changes
Inappropriate sexual behaviour
Violent/aggressive behaviour
Schizophrenic symptoms
Sleep disturbances
Insomnia
Changes in taste, smell, vision, and sensory/motor function which can be mistaken for psychiatric problems
 Haematological signs and symptoms

Anaemia
Macrocytosis (large red blood cells)
Hyper segmented neutrophils
Generalised weakness, fatigue
Breathlessness
Pallor / jaundice
Chronic fatigue
 Vascular Problems

Orthostatic hypotension/ Postural hypotension (low blood pressure when standing, which can cause fainting and falls)
Postural orthostatic tachycardia
palpitations
Occlusive vascular disorder
Transient ischemic attacks (TIAs, or 'mini stroke')
Cerebral vascular accident (CVA or 'stroke')
Myocardial infarction ('heart attack')
DVT - Deep vein thrombosis (blood clot to the leg or arm)
PE - Pulmonary embolism
 Female

Infertility
Recurrent miscarriage
Abnormal PAP smears
Intrauterine growth retardation
 Male

Infertility
Impotence
Low sperm motility
Low sperm count
 Gastrointestinal - signs and risk factors

Loss of appetite/weight loss or anorexia
Epigastric pain (poor digestion, bloated feeling after eating small or normal sized meals)
IBS - Irritable bowel syndrome
Constipation
GERD - Gastric reflux disease - ulcers / mouth ulcers
Giardiasis
Pancreatitis, pancreatic exorine insufficiency
Decreased stomach acid
Gastropareisis
Helicobactor pylori infection
SIBO Small intestinal bacterial overgrowth
Gastrectomy (partial or complete) - bariatric surgery
Illeal resection (partial or complete)
Malabsorption syndromes - Crohn's disease, coeliac disease etc)
Liver disease
Diphyllobothrium latum (fish tapeworm)
 Additional Signs and Symptoms

Dry cracked corners of the mouth
Premature greying
Glossitis - swollen / sore tongue, geographic tongue
Fainting/light headedness
Osteoporosis
Fractures
Suppressed activity of osteoblasts (cells that build bone)
Symptoms mimicking Parkinson's and MS
Nominal aphasia - difficulty recalling names or words
Radiculopathy - chronic pain disorder
Increased susceptibility to infections
Poor wound healing
Malnutrition
Enlarged spleen (splenomegaly)
Enlarged liver (hepatomegaly)
Skin hyper pigmentation or hypo pigmentation
Poor antibody production following vaccines
MTHFR Gene mutation


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## Chicane (Oct 8, 2015)

I was just reading about B12 deficiency the other day, where one woman was talking about a long list of unexplained symptoms she had that resembled the ones we experience with DP. They progressively got worse, with doctors having no answers. She dealt with this for 20 years before discovering she had a B12 deficiency, and recovered completely once she started getting shots for it. I wish this explained my own symptoms, but I was tested and only had a slight vitamin D deficiency. Still, from what I've read, some of the ranges that are considered 'normal' are pretty off. I also wonder if someone could show as being within the normal range while having absorption problems or something along those lines.


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## mrt (Dec 10, 2011)

Chicane said:


> 'normal' are pretty off. I also wonder if someone could show as being within the normal range while having absorption problems or something along those lines.


Yep, seems you can. Do you know it it was a serum B12, or an active (HoloTc or Holotranscobalamin) test you had?


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## mrt (Dec 10, 2011)

A GP called Dr Chandry had started treating anyone under 300 ng/l (well up into the 'normal' range) if they had fatigue/neurological symptoms with success for people with fatigue, ms and depression.

There's a short BBC piece about him here. Unfortunately he was banned from continuing the treatments.


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## Chicane (Oct 8, 2015)

Good stuff mrt. Not sure of the test I had, but this thread has convinced me to try B12 sublingual drops (far better absorption rates than pills from what I understand). I started yesterday, it's 20,000% the daily recommended amount. Hopefully there's an improvement, I'll update over time.


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## mrt (Dec 10, 2011)

Chicane said:


> Good stuff mrt. Not sure of the test I had, but this thread has convinced me to try B12 sublingual drops (far better absorption rates than pills from what I understand). I started yesterday, it's 20,000% the daily recommended amount. Hopefully there's an improvement, I'll update over time.


Fingers crossed.


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## Phocus (Feb 8, 2017)

I was terrible yesterday after my DR being x10 worse but then I took some B12 pills and today I'm feeling x50 better. I'm going to keep taking them to see how I do with them and if they keep helping me. It's worth a try for anyone thinking about taking them.


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## mind.divided (Jul 2, 2015)

It's especially common for vegetarians to have a b12 deficiency


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## Phocus (Feb 8, 2017)

mind.divided said:


> It's especially common for vegetarians to have a b12 deficiency


I'm actually from a vegetarian based household, my mother is a vegetarian and I was a full on vegetarian till about a year ago so I rarely eat meat unless she's cooking it for guests . I've had anemia before whilst I was a vegetarian which is why I started eating meat again. I'm going to try to get my mother to start cooking me more b12 rich foods and I'll take supplements too and see if it affects my DR.


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## mrt (Dec 10, 2011)

I got my results back, they were at the bottom end of normal. Did anyone have much luck continuing to take it?


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## Chicane (Oct 8, 2015)

mrt said:


> I got my results back, they were at the bottom end of normal. Did anyone have much luck continuing to take it?


Glad you got some results you can work with. I've been taking the sublingual drops since we started discussing it earlier in the thread, but not feeling any better so far. I'm not sure if it's just unlikely that this is the cause for any of my symptoms, or if I just need to give it more time.


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## mrt (Dec 10, 2011)

Chicane said:


> Glad you got some results you can work with. I've been taking the sublingual drops since we started discussing it earlier in the thread, but not feeling any better so far. I'm not sure if it's just unlikely that this is the cause for any of my symptoms, or if I just need to give it more time.


Still early days, starting mine too. Would be nice if it was that simple.


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## Pondererer (May 18, 2016)

Please keep us updated


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Have people been on the methylcobalamin version? This is the natural form found in the body and most easily absorbed. Cyanocobalamin is the synthetic version and most commonly found in b-vit tablets as its cheap but not very well absorbed. Hence the 1000's of percent you see on the label. Also as the name sounds, I think cyanocobalamin contains cyanide... but in tiny harmless amounts. But still an inefficient form of the vitamin. Looked into the methyl version a while ago but never took the jump. Have a constant knot in my stomach and the dp issues started with severe abdo pain/symptoms... worth a shot for me I guess amongst the various other things


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## mrt (Dec 10, 2011)

Broken said:


> Have people been on the methylcobalamin version? ...


Yep. I actually got a call from Dr Chandy, who now runs http://www.b12d.org/. He was extremely friendly and a lot more interested in my problems than my own doctor. He recommended self injecting Hydroxycobalamine (he's not able to prescribe it). Although the sublingual tablets work for some, they dont work for a lot of people with B12 deficiencies. Theres a more detailed post about it form the B12 research group <a>here https://b12researchgroup.wordpress.com/warning-about-the-use-of-b12-sublingual-tablets/</a>

Here's a snippet...

"Research shows, and that is also our clinical experience, that hydroxocobalamin i.m. (or deep s.c.) injections are the most proven superior treatment in B12 deficiency, certainly with neurological and psychological symptoms. Hydroxocobalamin facilitates both pathways (conversion to methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin) and it works in a more natural way. There are pathways in the complex metabolism/conversion to active forms that we (& the clinical chemists who we work with) do not know yet and which we therefore deliberately do not want to skip."

The only problem is, I can barely get myself to take a vitamin tablet, due to anxiety about medication. Let alone injecting something I'd need to buy off the internet. I wish my own doctor was more interested in my problems.


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## eddy1886 (Oct 11, 2012)

B vitamins for the nervous system (Anxiety)

D vitamins for mood (Depression) Its very common where I am from to have a D deficiency because of the lack of regular sunshine...In fact Ireland apparently has one of the highest rates of S A D in Europe....I know i definitely have it.....Winter is pretty nasty for me...


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## mrt (Dec 10, 2011)

I found out I have a D deficiency, no depression though. I'm sort of reverse SAD, I much prefer the dark cold months.


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## mrt (Dec 10, 2011)

So, after much messing about I finally got my standard B12 results. I am officially deficient! (113 pmol/L)

Back to the doctors (who refused to test me) next week, hopefully will make me progress. I've been advised not to take any B12 supplements until its been confirmed and started treatment.


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Wow interesting.. I've started taking methylcobalamin supplements. Silly %RDA though. Wish I had got mine tested before really.. I have been noticing a very positive change in my general well being. But also been on mirtazapine for 10 days. I'm sceptical it's the B12 for me but who knows. Good news for you though! Well done on finding it out


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Call me a skeptic but I don't think theres any merit to any of these vitamin-based treatments / theories. I had a shitty diet lacking in good micronutrients during my teen years, smoked weed regularly and took ecstacy - never had depersonalisation.

Sorry to rain on anyones parade but I think the reasons are far deeper. There are millions of people (possibly billions) living unhealthy lifestyles lacking in proper nutrition yet a fraction of them are truly depersonalized.


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Yep you're a sceptic as am I though, it's a good thing. I've often come to that conclusion, only to find on the forum the next week somebody else finding relief from taking a mineral/vitamin. I think you're right, and it's unlikely to be the cause.. but in some cases it actually is. And in others it provides some relief. For me recently I have found decent sleep to be of greatest help, and only medication (mirtazapine) has provided that. No supplement will do that for me, and it's shown me how actually god awful my sleep has been since dp and even years before that.

Takeaway message? Everybody's dp is different, which is why (sometimes) it makes it so hard to treat or find relief. But for most Yeh, it's emotional/psychological and they deny that prioritising the supplement route over that. For me it's not overly difficult to pursue both simultaneously.. which is what I'm now doing. B12 and zinc and other crap lol but as I say sleep for me, and I dont doubt a lot of other DP'ers has been crucial to progress. For someone else exercise. Another, meditation? (Although good luck discussing that here). Case in point- remain open minded ALWAYS. I found myself in the 'anti-medication' brigade, much to my detriment


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## mrt (Dec 10, 2011)

Midnight said:


> Call me a skeptic but I don't think theres any merit to any of these vitamin-based treatments / theories. I had a shitty diet lacking in good micronutrients during my teen years, smoked weed regularly and took ecstacy - never had depersonalisation.
> 
> Sorry to rain on anyones parade but I think the reasons are far deeper. There are millions of people (possibly billions) living unhealthy lifestyles lacking in proper nutrition yet a fraction of them are truly depersonalized.


Hi Midnight,

Everyone's different, and its certainly not going to be the cause for everybody. If you look at the original post, someone had symptoms very like mine, was B12 deficient and recovered from injections.

If you go through the recovery stories you'll find a lot of people recovered from supplements alone. If you look at my summary of the ones I've been through here

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1S25mBtZ5tstnCmhCSNwMB5lp49IcRbVo4Lr5bkeYPCE/pubhtml

you'll find B12/Complex, Magnesium and Omega 3 are mentioned by people fully, or largely recovered more than any one medicine.

B12 and Vit D deficiencies, both of which I have have, are proven to be causes of mood and psychological problems.

If you have a look at the work of Dr Julia Rucklidge, Prof Bonnie Kapla and others you'll find they have had success in treating a number of psychological issues such as PTSD, anxiety and schizophrenia using high dose broad spectrum Multi Vit/Minerals. Theres a good talk/lecture here






Their success rate is around 80%, to make some kind of improvement. A higher than medication.

Gut health/microbiome health also has proven links to pschological issues, which D3 supplementaion has been proven to improve

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4875045/

Take it all with a pinch of salt by all means, but you certainly can't dismiss it outright.


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Yeh exactly. I would say the lion's share of DPD is emotional/psychological, but there's such a vast array of symptoms and differences between people here that potentially the diagnosis could be wrong. BUT be very very honest with yourself. I denied for many years I ever had anxiety because my understanding was 'I dont blush, sweat, or get shaky so I CANT have that'. It took a long time to realise I had anxiety and depression for many years.

I have recently found some relief from Mirtazapine which lowers cortisol and is a super powerful anti-histamine. Having a very interesting private discussion with someone currently about high histamine levels. I fit a LOT of the high histamine level symptoms being: no fillings, don't feel the cold, light sleeper, perfectionist. I'm also taking that with a pinch of salt but will see what happens.

I have also been taking the fibre B-GOS in my tea in the morning.. could be lowering cortisol and histamine. And gut bacteria could have been my main cause. I say 'cause' loosely, psychological distress was the cause.. but therapy didn't cure me. Not that I'm anti therapy, I just never had a good therapist


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Interesting... I have methyl version of b12 at 2,500% RDA (or around that). And the other day I had insomnia so bad I didn't sleep one second the entire night. That has not happened for a LONG time.. thanks for the advice.. will be cutting that down to once a fortnight


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## mrt (Dec 10, 2011)

For countries where they do the sublingual B12 rather than injections for deficiency they do 1000 mcg per day


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## mrt (Dec 10, 2011)

Broken said:


> I have also been taking the fibre B-GOS in my tea in the morning..


I have some too. Do you think its made much of a difference, or too hard to tell with other stuff?


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Hmm I really don't know. The first week seemed amazing but it then faded.. also I was taking a tonne of coconut oil in those first few days which I now attribute the relaxed feeling I had to. There's no doubt it works though attributed nd increases bdnf, decreases cortisol, increases serotonin etc

I see the gut and brain as one thing, both ends affected by depression/other mood disorders. You can target one end or both. But by targeting the brain I mean meds. Mirtazapine has been a game changer for me and I think it's because it lowers cortisol AND histamine levels. I'm strongly pursuing the idea I have high histamine levels now. And also want to test my dna for the methyl gene (mthr.. or something). Either way- mirtz acted as an anti histamine which gave me decent deep sleep which I think is healing my brain. As for b-gos, the many beneficial benefits it has for the cheap price and ease of adding it to my morning tea? I think I will take it for life tbh


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## coconutoilsdotcom (Jul 12, 2017)

This is very interesting and helpful article, I am new to this thread and looking around for coconut oil benefits.


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## coconutoilsdotcom (Jul 12, 2017)

I am really interested to the topic since my son has been suffering from lack of B12 and I am finding this topic helpful, is coconut oil also helpful to cure this?


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Probably won't affect b12 levels.. Soz I went off on a tangent there. Have started the coconut oil again though and again am getting relaxation in the gut (which faded after I stopped and became tense and numb again). Coconut oil kills bad bacteria/fungus in the gut which is one possibility.. more likely is that the medium chain fatty acids in it are turned into ketones straight away. Ketosis makes the body/brain turn more glutamate into gaba. The kefir I've been taking also increases gaba in the gut and gaba receptors in the brain


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## anniephantom (Jan 17, 2018)

Did taking B12 improve anyone's vision or cognitive abilities?


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