# Refuting Solipsism and Other Metaphysical Claims (Extreme Trigger Warning)



## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

On the most basic explanation of Solipsism, the premise of it basically entails that you cannot be sure if the people around you are conscious because you are only capable of verifying your conscious experience rather than someone else's due to the fact that you cannot hack into the mind of others.

At first sight, this appears very disturbingly possible. But when you really think about the entire problem of this theory, it begins to dissipate and only offers a hint of truth about our world.

Solipsism is a product of language. If you were a caveman, with little intelligence to postulate the complexity of a rock, let alone existence, you obviously wouldn't know what Solipsism was. You wouldn't even be able to utilize a language to translate this idea. And this is where the theory begins to fall apart.

In order for Solipsism to work, it needs a language. Language is a product of the human mind. A newborn baby does not automatically know how to speak English or Japanese. It simply cries and makes noises to translate its mood. Therefore this is a clear indication that Solipsism is not the case and other minds, do in fact, exist independently of yours.

If you're still not convinced: let's do some abstract thinking. Say I'm the Solipsist.

If I were a Solipsist, and only I truly existed, while everyone else is merely a figment of my overactive imagination / Wouldn't I need some sort of blueprint/model for me to construct them and discover a way to sustain them? Say I am literally all there is, all there ever will be, how could I have possibly thought up an entire civilization with its inherent features? How could I have known what a human with 2 arms and 2 legs was, had I not seen one? Let alone an entire Universe along with all of its contents? I can't. I need a preexisting mental concept to have an idea of something before being able to successfully replicate it. From a Solipsist POV, I can also argue something like, "I was experimenting until I found a way to create these things", but that's impossible, because how can I translate something I never seen/heard of?

This is why Solipsism just doesn't work. At best, it just tries to test our beliefs and encourages us to become a bit more open minded about the world. The fact that we have grown so much to make up such philosophies negates the possibility of them being true. It's just a way for us to test our limits. The premise of every philosophy is questionable.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

Thank you very much Solomon! I hope this post will put to sleep some issues people have with it. I especially know how much of an emotional burden it could be.


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## yosemitedome (Aug 1, 2013)

Good post. I actually haven't freaked out and been down the solipsism road, touch wood. I even did a little test on my mate the other day. I can't remember the context of the discourse but I saw an opportunity to slip the idea into our conversation, we were talking about some wacked out philosoohical schtuff. He just said 'yeah, interesting', and that was it.

Funny how a feeling can make you obsess about harmless things.


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## Kinda-Confused (Nov 18, 2013)

I think of Solipsism in almost the exact same way. It can also be hard for people to accept they're not different and are bound by the same rules as everybody else. I'm constantly lost in my own daydreams for example.


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## Partinobodycular (Nov 18, 2013)

Jurgen said:


> On the most basic explanation of Solipsism, the premise of it basically entails that you cannot be sure if the people around you are conscious because you are only capable of verifying your conscious experience rather than someone else's due to the fact that you cannot hack into the mind of others.
> 
> At first sight, this appears very disturbingly possible. But when you really think about the entire problem of this theory, it begins to dissipate and only offers a hint of truth about our world.
> 
> ...


As a solipsist I find it quite amusing the arguments that people come up with to try to refute it. There are NO logical arguments against solipsism, and all attempts to construct them are ultimately futile.

The OP is a perfect example of an overly simplistic line of reasoning. Jurgen is no doubt perfectly happy with believing that all of the complex structures of our reality evolved over time from some initial starting condition. Be it the Big Bang or some other such origin. Or perhaps Jurgen believes that God created the world, whole and complete, with language and cultures, and all manner of complex systems. In which case any arguments against solipsism can also be effectively applied to God as well. Where did God get the idea of language?

But I assume that Jurgen believes that the world as we know it evolved from some primordial condition. He believes that reality as we know it emerged over time, from pre-elementary particles, to matter, to stars, to planets, to life, to animals, to intelligence, and finally to to us, with our language, and culture, and technology, and philosophy. He believes that all of our complex structures evolved over time, that the world as we know it did not arise whole and complete. He believes that all of this "stuff" gave rise to consciousness. Gave rise to us.

But he seems to conveniently disregard the possibility that the exact opposite may be true. That it was consciousness that evolved, and it was consciousness that gave rise to all of this stuff. In solipsism there is no need for language to have popped into existence whole and complete. Perhaps it simply evolved, as consciousness evolved. Perhaps what emerged from those pre-elemnetary particles wasn't matter and planets at all, but simply consciousness. Maybe those pre-elementary particles gave rise to patterns, and those patterns gave rise to structure, and those structures gave rise to consciousness, and consciousness gave rise to what we percieve to be reality. Perchance all of this "stuff" is simply consciousness's way of giving itself context, of explaining what it is, and where it came from. Maybe the need for context was so overwhelming, that consciousness gave rise to us. For without us, what am I, other than alone? It is just as likely that it was consciousness that evolved and gave rise to us, as it is that we evolved and gave rise to it.

A solipsist simply accepts that all that can be known for certain, is that "I AM". This one simple truth is all that any of us can ever know. People assume that such a philosophy would make a man egotistical, but the opposite is true. It makes a man humble, for just as the world may be nothing without me, I am certainly nothing without it. All of my greatest attributes, of compassion, and empathy, and mercy, and humility, and perseverance, and forgiveness, I owe to the struggles and hardships of life. Reality may be an illusion, but life is not, it is all that any of us have. If I am real, than my life is real, for it is what defines me. Solipsism doesn't make a man a God. It makes him alone. And the only thing that breaks the solitude, is life. Even with all of its suffering and sorrow, there is nothing more precious than life. Perhaps it goes on, and perhaps it doesn't, but right here and right now, it is all that any of us have to keep from being alone. Solipsism doesn't belittle the importance of life, and others, it treasures them. All of them.

Perhaps the complexities of life evolved simply because consciousness cannot bear to be alone. It must give itself context. You can disregard, and disparage solipsism if you wish, but you cannot refute it.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

Partinobodycular said:


> As a solipsist I find it quite amusing the arguments that people come up with to try to refute it. There are NO logical arguments against solipsism, and all attempts to construct them are ultimately futile.
> The OP is a perfect example of an overly simplistic line of reasoning. Jurgen is no doubt perfectly happy with believing that all of the complex structures of our reality evolved over time from some initial starting condition. Be it the Big Bang or some other such origin. Or perhaps Jurgen believes that God created the world, whole and complete, with language and cultures, and all manner of complex systems. In which case any arguments against solipsism can also be effectively applied to God as well. Where did God get the idea of language?
> But I assume that Jurgen believes that the world as we know it evolved from some primordial condition. He believes that reality as we know it emerged over time, from pre-elementary particles, to matter, to stars, to planets, to life, to animals, to intelligence, and finally to to us, with our language, and culture, and technology, and philosophy. He believes that all of our complex structures evolved over time, that the world as we know it did not arise whole and complete. He believes that all of this "stuff" gave rise to consciousness. Gave rise to us.
> But he seems to conveniently disregard the possibility that the exact opposite may be true. That it was consciousness that evolved, and it was consciousness that gave rise to all of this stuff. In solipsism there is no need for language to have popped into existence whole and complete. Perhaps it simply evolved, as consciousness evolved. Perhaps what emerged from those pre-elemnetary particles wasn't matter and planets at all, but simply consciousness. Maybe those pre-elementary particles gave rise to patterns, and those patterns gave rise to structure, and those structures gave rise to consciousness, and consciousness gave rise to what we percieve to be reality. Perchance all of this "stuff" is simply consciousness's way of giving itself context, of explaining what it is, and where it came from. Maybe the need for context was so overwhelming, that consciousness gave rise to us. For without us, what am I, other than alone? It is just as likely that it was consciousness that evolved and gave rise to us, as it is that we evolved and gave rise to it.
> ...


Sure I'll consider the possibility of your claim to be true, however: How can you make such an astounding claim when the greatest thinkers of all time, let alone you, cannot even define consciousness? It is widely accepted that this phenomenon of "consciousness" occurs in the brain based on natural philosophy, and a Solipsist wouldn't consider himself a Solipsist if he cannot translate this notion through language. There are some valid points in your post but unfortunately it is all theoretical and cannot be tested, which momentarily renders it null until we have better resources to experiment those claims.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

In addition, you must bear the burden of proof to explain how something like consciousness, which we yet do not understand, can evolve by itself without the support of biology. Our body decays until we die and apparently afterward our "consciousness" will cease to exist. If something so powerful can sustain a whole universe along with all of its contents, then it can bypass something such as death. Please provide your explanation.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

Just another thing, as I'd like to further clarify on my explanation of why Solipsism only offers perhaps a hint of truth, is this:

How can 'nothing' give rise to 'something'? Ultimately, it seems, you classify consciousness as some sort of entity, or a circuit for which we human beings can experience ourselves. This would mean that consciousness must have had an origin from which it could have evolved as naturally as humans do within its confinement. It implies that "consciousness" has some sort of function which allows to give rise to the human experience, and it seems you also associate "consciousness" with a human emotion. How can "consciousness" be lonely, when it is a human emotion? Loneliness is the cause of realizing that you are alone due to an absence. How can "nothing" realize it's lonely unless there was some kind of reflective consciousness? Just doesn't make make sense. It would then be reasonable to say that we are part of a Universal consciousness, but alone? I don't think so.


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## gasspanicc (Mar 21, 2012)

lol solipism is incoherant and retarted imo, i mean if u shoot urself, u or prick urself with a needle, u think u dont feel that LOL! seriously its just an imagination going FWEFWEFWEWEF, which is all pure OCD is lol


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

I just don't like some of the arrogance associated with it. There's a lot of but's that fall in the theory.
"I'm a Solipsist, BUT ... I'm vulnerable to pain and the laws of the universe."
"I'm a Solipsist, BUT ... I need language to translate this notion."
"I'm a Solipsist, BUT ... I'm limited."

Consciousness is the basis for the Universe, but it's unreasonable to say that others don't exist. Reality IS, an illusion. It is OUR illusion, and I'm perfectly fine with that.


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## yosemitedome (Aug 1, 2013)

I'm a solipsist BUT... did you create me or did I create you? Mexican stand-off!


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## yosemitedome (Aug 1, 2013)

The truth of the matter is. It is theoretically impossible to prove or disprove something beyond all doubt, impossible. This is the logical fallacy SO many weak theories rely upon; 'you can't prove it doesn't exist so therefore it does'. All we can rely upon is the OVERWHELMING evidence that is presented to us as human beings. Gravity is 'just a theory' but I do not see people walking off buildings to test it's validity. It is SO OVERWHELMINGLY LIKELY that it exists, so therefore we adhere to its guidelines.

You can't prove that aliens are not controlling us right now via remote advanced technology, infiltrated into our minds at birth. Heck, maybe they created us as a little social experiment to see how we fair. Maybe we are in a huge biodome, and there is another lifeform watching us right now, and we are the size of ants in comparison to them. Shit, maybe ants were put on this earth as a clue to this anomaly, and only DP'd people realise this.

Just because you can't disprove something, doesn't mean it exists.


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## Hosscat (Oct 23, 2012)

I know these arguments are right, but for some reason it wont stick. I guess because anxiety makes the irrational seem possible. But it bothers me that the anxiety is getting much better and these thoughts are still bothering me.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

Hosscat said:


> I know these arguments are right, but for some reason it wont stick. I guess because anxiety makes the irrational seem possible. But it bothers me that the anxiety is getting much better and these thoughts are still bothering me.


Hossocat, maybe you just need to shuffle through your emotional baggage to really understand why Solipsism bothers you so much. I have the same problem, and I won't deny it's solely the reason why I persist my efforts on attempting to refute this idea. Perhaps you don't receive much attention from your loved ones as much as you'd like, or you feel lonely, or maybe it's something else entirely that you are suppressing. I can come up with tons of reasons why Solipsism is refutable and even though the arguments would appear logically tight and sound, even by actual philosophers (who don't take this idea seriously, by the way) this still won't resolve your feeling of discontent. It isn't Solipsism that bothers you, it's something else that tells you something about yourself. Sure enough, you are not alone in this feeling. The feeling to me occurs right below my heart in the upper center region of my stomach. It feels hollow and in pain whenever I think "Solipsism" is irrefutable, and get the rush of thoughts about my family whom I love dearly. As if someone is trying to take them away from me. It's so painful. But Solipsism isn't the problem. They exist. I exist, and so does everyone else. If it makes you feel any better, I am the only true Solipsist here, and no matter what you say, is a futile attempt to try and deceive me into thinking that I'm not the only true Solipsist. And it won't work. Because you are a figment of my imagination.


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## Partinobodycular (Nov 18, 2013)

Hosscat said:


> I know these arguments are right, but for some reason it wont stick. I guess because anxiety makes the irrational seem possible. But it bothers me that the anxiety is getting much better and these thoughts are still bothering me.


There is no way to refute the philosophy of solipsism, but neither is there a need to fear it. For as surely as you are real, the world is real. Who is to know, which of you will inevitably pass away.

But even if you doubt the integrity of the world around you, there are some things that you know to be real, your hopes, your joy, your anger, your sorrow, your love, and yes, even your fears are real. You cannot hold them in your hands, or measure them on a scale, but none-the-less they are real. These are the things that define you, and these things are born of this world. It may indeed be that everything around you is nothing but an illusion, there is no way to be certain. But that does not make them any less precious. If this world were but an illusion it would not make your pain any easier, or your emotions any lesser. The experiences of this world are the things that make you...you. There is no such thing as I am real and they are not. If you are real, they are real, for it's this world and this life that has made you what you are. Do not think that you have made them, any more than they have made you. All of your hopes, all of your dreams, all of your sorrows and all of your fears are born of this life and of this world. You and they are inseparable. You and they are one. It is because of them that you laugh, and you dream, and you cry. This world and this life are a very precious thing. Do not fear that they may not be real. For if you cry, they are real, and if you love, they are real. Everything of lasting value that you possess, was born of them. The authenticity of this world is evidenced in you.

All that you have, this world has given you, that makes it a very precious thing. Do not fear its existence, treasure it, embrace it, and cherish it. For life is indeed a wondrous and glorious gift. Know how fleeting it is, and go forth and live it to the fullest. Be afraid if you must, but be brave if you can, for of such bravery is born a contented soul. Who is to say if this world is a reflection of you, or you are a reflection of it, but perhaps by changing one, you can change the other.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

Partinobodycular said:


> There is no way to refute the philosophy of solipsism, but neither is there a need to fear it. For as surely as you are real, the world is real. Who is to know, which of you will inevitably pass away.
> 
> But even if you doubt the integrity of the world around you, there are some things that you know to be real, your hopes, your joy, your anger, your sorrow, your love, and yes, even your fears are real. You cannot hold them in your hands, or measure them on a scale, but none-the-less they are real. These are the things that define you, and these things are born of this world. It may indeed be that everything around you is nothing but an illusion, there is no way to be certain. But that does not make them any less precious. If this world were but an illusion it would not make your pain any easier, or your emotions any lesser. The experiences of this world are the things that make you...you. There is no such thing as I am real and they are not. If you are real, they are real, for it's this world and this life that has made you what you are. Do not think that you have made them, any more than they have made you. All of your hopes, all of your dreams, all of your sorrows and all of your fears are born of this life and of this world. You and they are inseparable. You and they are one. It is because of them that you laugh, and you dream, and you cry. This world and this life are a very precious thing. Do not fear that they may not be real. For if you cry, they are real, and if you love, they are real. Everything of lasting value that you possess, was born of them. The authenticity of this world is evidenced in you.
> All that you have, this world has given you, that makes it a very precious thing. Do not fear its existence, treasure it, embrace it, and cherish it. For life is indeed a wondrous and glorious gift. Know how fleeting it is, and go forth and live it to the fullest. Be afraid if you must, but be brave if you can, for of such bravery is born a contented soul. Who is to say if this world is a reflection of you, or you are a reflection of it, but perhaps by changing one, you can change the other.


Just stop.


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## hennessy (Apr 2, 2008)

Jurgen said:


> Just stop.


Why are you asking him to stop? You are not Solipsist. You are constantly trying to disprove solupsism but like you have said before, it's not about the Solupsism itself, it's about your ocd and anxiety. There are millions of possibilities out there and you go and stick to a one which is not considered "valuable" by any philosophers anyways. Focus on healing yourself, not disproving soluptism and than the idea will look stupid. I've experienced this.


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## hennessy (Apr 2, 2008)

hennessy said:


> Why are you asking him to stop? You are not a Solipsist. You are constantly trying to disprove solupsism but like you have said before, it's not about the Solupsism itself, it's about your ocd and anxiety. There are millions of possibilities out there and you go and stick to a one which is not considered "valuable" by any philosophers anyways. Focus on healing yourself, not disproving soluptism and than the idea will look stupid. I've experienced this.


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