# Strong Fear Of Insanity



## Guest (Aug 24, 2004)

Yeah i know, ive been reassured many many many many times, that i am not insane and that i will not go insane, but for some reason i cannot shake the fear.

Its like because of the fact that things seem so strange, that i must be heading down the road of insanity. And yes someone will be like " hey thats just anxiety" it feels weirder than anxiety. I mean if i logically think about it, at this point, i cannot be insane, Would an insane person be able to hold a job? Write verses, Hold normal conversations, Have rational feelings? Probably not, RIGHT???????????

During my last therapy visit, my therapist was asking me a number of questions based around the subject of Sociopathic ( word?) symptoms and he said that i had none of them. Is being a sociopath the same thing as being insane? The other thing though that secretly bothers me, is the fact that i go see a therapist, yeah it helps, but its just like im hiding this big secret from most people, just like im hiding the whole DP/DR thing from most people. This does bother me, because mostly everyone thinks im fine, because i appear fine, talk fine & around most people act fine.

I just keep thinking that somehow, maybe when im older, that this will start to develope into insanity or dimentia or something like that. Obviously im not feeling normal, im an outside the box thinker when it comes to alot of things & i just feel strange. I just don't understand how things can ever gonna feel right again. Like a few times during arguments with my dad he was like " what are you going crazy?" or " your acting like your ready for the nut house" or " my son is cracking up" Either because of what he said or because of maybe the argument that took place, i sit back & wonder, maybe he's right or maybe what i did or said was infact a sign of going insane, even though if i rationally think about it now, it really wasn't, it was more a sign of depression & stress.

ahhhh im so conflicted & confused

sorry about the long ass post.

Peace


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## Kelson12 (Aug 10, 2004)

S. Brotha,

What up man...as you can see from my most recent post today that I am feeling back down a little bit right now, so I figure I can do more to relate to you right now.
You are not going insane! Trust me. When you feel down like this, you are going to keep questioning if it will get worse and if you will peak at insanity. Well, you won't. I'm nothing close to an expert (like Janine!), but I bet she will tell you, "You are not going insane!".
This will all go away soon, I know it. Just keep maintaining that job, keep working out, keep doing your music, keep watching the things you enjoy, i.e., basketball, football, etc., keep going to concerts, keep schooling me on the underground scene  and you will be fine. Just don't give up!!!!!!!!
I'm always here on email, IM, PM, etc. Holla.

Kelson


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## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

My first year of DP, I was constantly afraid of going insane. I finally learned I wasn't going to crazy. I hadn't seen anything yet. I still have many moments where I think I'm going crazy, but I never do. It's only natural to think that. But, it never happens.


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## JasonFar (Aug 13, 2004)

Breakdowns can last for a while, especially when there's a huge identity crisis going on; for example, someone has become something that, only half a year prior, they so vehemently were disgusted with. That will do one in.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2004)

^ ?????????????????????????


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2004)

a sociopath is a person who basicaly is unable to function within the rules of society..many sociopaths end up spending most of thier lives in jail.. thats the best i can explain it...i feel you on thinking you might be going in sane.. i dont think we really will though.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2004)

SouBrotha, you will be many many exciting things in your life, but insane ain't gonna be one of them.

I had the same fear and listen up: I had that fear for MANY many years. Every single time I thought about it, I was convinced even more that yes, clearly this is the beginning of insanity.

Wrong.

That is part of the obsessive fear/fantasy around most dp experiences. We are convinced we're crazy or about to go crazy.

Wrong.

These symptoms do not "lead" to any form of insanity. The worst they can do is lead to more and more anxiety (as if that's not bad enough!)

I am not crazy, you are not crazy - and you are no crazier than me. And never will be.

The fear of insanity is part of the symptom.

Trust me. I am 100 per cent, or maybe 110 per cent POSITIVE. Not a shred of doubt. And not a shred of doubt in your psychiatrist either, I'm sure.

Peace,
Jnizzle (with that name, at 50 years old, do I sound like a good person to be telling you you're not crazy? LOL)


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## kenc127 (Aug 10, 2004)

> Its like because of the fact that things seem so strange, that i must be heading down the road of insanity. And yes someone will be like " hey thats just anxiety" it feels weirder than anxiety. I mean if i logically think about it, at this point, i cannot be insane, Would an insane person be able to hold a job? Write verses, Hold normal conversations, Have rational feelings? Probably not, RIGHT???????????


Did you get up? Did you shower? Did you go to work? Did you interact with people? Did you eat 3 meals? If your answer is yes to these questions, then you're living life well. Hang in there SB.


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2004)

Ken, your right man & my answer is yes to all of those questions so i guess im not insane, i dunno.

Jannine lol, i don't know what i would do witout your reassuring posts. Thanks, & yes i do find it ok & " normal" that your are a 50 year old women with the alias ( in which i gave you lol) of Janizzle, lol, im laughing as i type this.

You can call me Soul Brizzle if you want lol

Its all in fun, i bet theres a few people cringing as they read this, well i got one thing to say, CRINGE ON, CUZ AINT NUTHIN CHANGIN MANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG! haha

if im not crazy or insane, im definietly wacky!


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Hi SoulBrotha - I wanna add my reply here, cuz nobody else happened to say one 'magic trick' here in this thread... I mean the questioning itself: "Am I going insane?" is a strong sign that you are NOT going insane. I may proudly say 'been there, done that', as I have suffered two psychosises in my recent past. All I could say I never came to think about that question, while I was in psychosis - instead I happened to be busy with thinking that I'm the center of my own universe, seeking mythical Signs on my surroundings and thinking/feeling that I have a telepathic real-time connection with a person from far future. I never happened to question my condition, I was right and the all those other people around me were wrong! In my own opinion I was perfectly healthy and those thoughts/feelings I was experiencing were true without questioning. I have met other people too, who have recovered from psychosis and also they have admitted that during psychosis, when one is REALLY occupied with insane thoughts, one NEVER questions her/his condition. So if you are asking yourself "Am I going crazy?" I think it is the strongest indication that you aren't. 8)


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2004)

Im sorry that you had to go through that Ninnu & im glad your over it, I guess it makes me feel better than someone who actually experienced insanity is telling me what im feeling is not insanity, it also kind of scares me.

Ninu if you don't mind me asking, how did your psychosis come about??


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

SoulBrotha, you're welcome to ask any questions about my mental breakdown, I don't mind...

A couple of years ago, when I went psychotic for the first time, I think it was launched by PTSD and huge stress levels - in the end I couldn't do more than go out drinking or sit beside my computer staying online dulling my senses. First I experienced some flashback memories due to one unfortunate night, when my former boyfriend beat me in the center of Finland's capital Helsinki and left me there wandering alone. Then I started feeling Signs on my surroundings, and thought the universe sends me them - i.e. magical thinking...and too much Jungian literature. :wink: Finally while I was in a very bad condition I started feeling those telepathic thoughts, which I thought were from one guy from the future - I remember having lots of long mental conversations with him. I never questioned my experiences, I felt those things so clearly and vividly, that it never came to my mind that I might be insane.

Once I was drinking in a bar I guess I finally was fed up cuz of my miserable condition (I also was severely depressed at the same time) and I started throwing things and shouting "I wanna go to the mental hospital, please call the police". I don't know exactly what happened, I was told that at the police station. There was a nice psychiatrist at the police station, who helped me to go to a mental ward - there I happened to get good meds, which finally lifted me out of psychosis and depression.

I thank for my life for that, because since I started the medication and the meds finally kicked in, I haven't had any s*icidal thoughts, nor bizarre ideation. Although, about a year ago I started experiencing extrapyramidal side effects due to the neurolept I was on, and I was so scared bc of those side effects that I went cold turkey. Of course it wasn't very wise, because I went psychotic again cuz of the withdrawal. Luckily I was prescribed a better antipsychotic, and it lifted me out of my self-illusions also that time.

Well - sometimes - especially while intoxicated with alcohol or cannabis (yeah don't try this at home...) I have come to ponder about my psychotic experiences in a kind of 'intellectual' way. It is kinda fun, because nobody is capable to say, what I have experienced - i.e. the mental connection with the dude from the future - can be insane ideation only. Of course there is a small possibility that those things I experienced may have been true too - who knows? I won't say anything, but I just keep in mind that one can play with those questions, but better not trust them altogether at the same time. It is like having an agnostic mind - there might or mightn't be a God, but one never can know for sure... 8)


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2004)

jesus that sounds rough, its times like this, where i wish i was ignorant to all of this stuff & just lived as a normal happy person.

Its not possible for a psychotic break to occur after DP/DR is it? Doesn't the psychosis usually come first?


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## peacedove (Aug 15, 2004)

Ninnu... would you mind telling me what meds they put you on that helped you out? I'd like to know, cuz I think I've been pretty close to a psychotic breakdown and I'd like to know how to get out of it if I'm ever in one


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## kenc127 (Aug 10, 2004)

Wow Ninnu, I too am really sorry that you went through that. But I'm really glad that you got on some good meds and pulled away from those thoughts. And thanks for telling us that when psychosis sets in, you don't really know its happening. I got some relief from that. Take care of yourself.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

peacedove said:


> Ninnu... would you mind telling me what meds they put you on that helped you out?


When I had my first psychosis I was prescribed antidepressant Remeron (mirtazapin) 30 mg and Peratsin (perphenazine), but I don't remember the dose of Peratsin anymore. Since I started experiencing extrapyramidal side effects cuz of Peratsin and I went psychotic again cuz of going cold turkey, I was prescribed antipsychotic Zyprexa (olanzapine) 10 mg. Currently I'm on Remeron 30 mg and Zyprexa 10 mg - all I could say about this med combination is that it has been very good for me, as I can function perfectly normally cuz of it: I can study full-time, have my creative hobbies etc. If you are interested, you may read more of me in the story section - I have put there a short story about how I became DPed and how does it affect me.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

SoulBrotha said:


> Its not possible for a psychotic break to occur after DP/DR is it? Doesn't the psychosis usually come first?


For me DP/DR has been the first symptom of a mental disorder in my life - when I started experiencing DP/DR for the first time, I was 14-yr-old and never had tried any drugs/alcohol, nor I was feeling any other mental symptoms (e.g. depression,anxiety). So I guess my case is primary depersonalization. All the other stuff I have experienced afterwards. First I became depressed, and after having a very bad relationship I got PTSD, which led me into psychosis diagnosed Borderline in the mental hospital. Now I can proudly say I have conquered all of those conditions except DP/DR and I guess what doesn't kill me, just makes me stronger. I don't know will I ever get rid of DP/DR, but I do my best not to become bothered cuz of it.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2004)

Hi,

I am glad that you are doing well despite your case history.

I would like to ask you is Remeron an antidepressant?

You say that you were diagnosed Borderline although you talk about having had a psychosis. Weren't you diagnosed psychotic?
Is borderline the same as psychosis (that would confuse me cause I always thought borderline is another disorder and psychosis is considered a mental illness rather than a disorder, but I really don't know how to use the terms anymore)?


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Hi I - yes, Remeron is an antidepressant, although it doesn't belong to the famous group of SSRIs. Unfortunately I hardly remember anything about the pharmacokinetics of mirtazapin though, as I am quite lazy getting to know that stuff about prescribed drugs. I just tend to ask my boyfriend (or MD) about that stuff, cuz he is more interested in pharmacological facts - and after hearing the detailed information I often just forget the stuff... 

About BPD, I think here in Finland it is considered more a category where those patients are put, who do have symptoms of psychosis, but whose condition isn't that severe they could be labeled as Schizophrenic. Actually if Borderline is considered as a distinctive disorder, I think the diagnosis about my case might be a bit wrong, cuz I feel my psychotic breakdown was fueled by PTSD and it was "only" an acute condition, which was quickly recovered after I started taking the proper medication. But I see the mental ward I was in was quite crowded and therefore I got to discuss with the psychiatrist only twice. Thus he made the diagnosis only referring to those two short discussions - that's why I am aware that my diagnosis mightn't have been exactly accurate.

By the way, I want to say my thanks to all of you here in this thread, who have been sympathetic toward me and those things I have experienced some years ago. I am used to belittle my experiences and although I have been through quite a lot of stuff, I don't usually think it has been rough (although I do remember how bad I felt in my past). I hope my case may give some hope to others who are feeling miserable at the moment - there is always light in the end of the tunnel.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2004)

Hey thanks for the nice reply!

I remember that I once read that Borderline PD was considered a disorder in between neurosis and psychosis ( hence borderline, that means at the border of psychosis).

But the same article said that nowadays it is not so clear anymore what borderline indeed is. I personally have given it up to look for definitions of the various terms used in psychiatry, there seems to be too much babble around. Everyone of the professionals sees it differently.

I just know that I have DPD and a strong fear of going crazy, furthermore anxiety and panic (wears off these days). I mean, that's more than I ever wanted to know, and I guess I am a bit hypochondriac due to the anxiety.
I am just trying to get a grip on my life.

A doctor prescribed me zyprexa for th DP cause I refused to take an ssri and he refused to give me a sedative which I originally wanted.
I have never taken a pill of the zyprexa and I never will but it does help me with the anxiety cause when I am dped and I think I am going crazy I think that if I am losing it I can take the zyprexa and that option calms me down, you know.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2004)

I strongly believe that I'm going crazy...I've suffered from DP/DR since I was 16, now I'm 24. DP/DR feelings are very intense, but I don't have them 24/7 all the time, in fact I've had months without them in the past. In my case, I think DP/DR is stress related. I suffer from severe anxiety, it feels as I'm having a panic attack that just doesn't go away. The biggest fear that bothers me ALL THE TIME is the fear of schizofrenia/psychosis. That is THE scariest thing that could ever happen for me. I'm constantly reading about schizofrenia/psychosis and I seriously believe that I'm insane or going to be one soon... I know every symptom of those illnesses by heart. I'm really obsessive about the fear of going crazy. Nothing seems to reassure me and I'm worrying so much that I can't concentrate on anything else anymore. At work I read articles on the internet about schizofrenia instead of working...

Ninnu: I hope this question isn't too personal, but I have to ask: please tell me, what were the first symptoms of psychosis for you? Can anxiety lead to psychosis? I've been having these really weird "thoughts" lately that are scary and very hard to explain...for example I'm afraid that I'll start to see horrible things, like in horror movies. People without eyes etc. I don't actually SEE anything exept in my mind. But I get scared very easely, for example I'm terrified of knives. Then I have this bothering "feeling" (or image) that a knive is cutting my throat. I try NOT to think about it, but the thought keeps coming. I just can't control it. Sometimes the image is so vivid, that I have to hold my hand against my throat to prevent the "knive" from cutting it... and there's more. It's really hard to talk to people because I keep having these terrible visual images of knives stabbing their eyes. And I'm also afraid that a person's face will suddenly change to something horrible. So Ninnu (and everyone else), could these thoughts/images be the first symptoms of psychosis/schizofrenia? I don't actually see anything, but I'm scared I will someday... I'm so worried about this I can't sleep... can ANYONE relate?

Sorry about the long post,

H


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2004)

H2: you are describing CLASSIC anxiety and obsessiveness. It is no way linked to psychosis. I know those crazy fears and how you seem to be possessed or something. It's pure thought, pure terror - and is usually a reflection of some OTHER area where you are too controlled (and secretly wanting to let go). This will not lead to insanity. no way. If you've had massive fears like this for months, and have NOT induced a psychosis, you never will. A long period of enduring such thoughts and fears is the largest piece of evidence to psychiatrists that the person is INCAPABLE of having a psychotic break (as in, it would have already happened - LONG ago if you've been living like this).

I wrote a thread for you guys about the word "Borderline" under the Other Mental Illnesses Forum - trying to help explain some of the different uses that word can have in the field.

Peace,
Janine


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Hello H24, you're welcome to ask me anything related to my mental struggle toward a more peaceful life - it is OK for me. Have you seen Janine's post about schitzophrenia and depersonalization? I think it is a good description for anybody fearing insanity. I think what you're experiencing are just obsessive thoughts, which are scary though - I think they aren't the first sign of insanity, far from that. It seems human mind is capable of doing dirty tricks to oneself - I guess the more one is afraid of scary, obsessive thoughts (or any kind of obsessions) the more they will disturb the person who is experiencing them. But you may keep in mind they are just thoughts, and thoughts alone cannot lead to seeing/hearing scary things. You might tell yourself every time you're experiencing those thoughts that you won't listen to them, they cannot disturb you - in the end, they are just thoughts. I think Janine or somebody else here in this forum may be better than I giving you some good tools, which would help with obsessive thoughts...?

You asked how did my psychosis start - I must admit that it didn't have anything to do with obsessive thoughts or the fear of insanity. I have been interested in shamanism, lucid dreams and mind-altering drugs for a long time, because I am a person who would like to experience visions, i.e. hallucinations. Unfortunately I was and still am inable to do shamanic journeys with the aid of monotonous drum beat and that's why I became interested in psychedelics like LSD and psilocybine mushrooms. Although I had experimented with psychedelics before I got the psychosis, I think they were not the direct cause behind my mental breakdown, as I have never been very "visionary" person indeed. Even on LSD, although it is pretty mind-blowing experience intellectually, I have never seen any real hallucinations, I only have seen mild visual distortions like fractal patterns on my surroundings etc. Also I hadn't used any psychedelics for ages before I got my psychotic episode.

In autumn 2000 I started my second year at the university and had pretty rough time emotionally, as I guess at that time I was in the kind of mental condition that my mind thought it is the time to start retrieving the lost memories of one fateful night I had experienced year 1998. In spring 1998 I was beaten by my ex-boyfriend in the city centre of Helsinki - after beating he left me wandering alone there. I had just moved to Helsinki and thus the city was foreign to me, which intensified the painful experience, as I didn't know where to go after my ex-boyfriend left me alone - I had and still do have blackouts about that night. During that incident I was intoxicated with alcohol, but not that much it should have caused me any blackouts. In autumn 2000 my PTSD started with a couple of flashback memories that retrieved some episodes, which may (or may not?) have happened to me during that fateful night. I was pretty scared and devastated cuz of those flashbacks, as they weren't nice at all - indeed I still use to doubt the validity of some of those returned memories, as they aren't pleasant at all, far from that. So PTSD rised my stress levels to the top, and I guess this was the cause of my psychosis.

In the beginning I started feeling mythically, seeing signs in my surroundings and my ability to create associations heightened - it was like when I was watching my surroundings or hearing people discussing with each other in my nearhood, I kept seeing the words I heard or things I saw as special signs, which I imagined were the way the universe was communicating with me. I really felt like some magically thinking primordial hunter-gatherer who thinks the bird that is flying on the sky is the sign from the gods... My ability to create associations heightened and when reading any text, the words were "glittering" with different meanings. After that I started feeling touch hallucinations, like spiders crawling on my skin and spider web penetrating into the place in my forehead that also could be called "the third eye". Also while sitting beside the computer, I experienced heat under my feet and felt something knocking under my chair. I thought they were demons, but the "guy from the future" with whom I thought having real-time mental conversations tried to tell me they are just "earth energies" or something like that, which are drawn to me because I think about them and thus give them power. I never was afraid of what I experienced but once, when I experienced that all of my safety boundaries were attacked and some "black energy" tried to consume me - during that experience I felt physical pain especially in my eyes, which I thought as the weakest spot in me and I feared I was going blind because of the "attack". I never did though, but I was quite deep in mythical thinking and I thought I had special parapsychological skills, e.g. telepathy and a skill to know what other people are thinking cuz of the signs I thought receiving from the universe. You could say this girl was pretty deep in her metaphysical New Age thinking, i.e. crazy!

When I finally sought and found help for my mental breakdown, I never told about those weird things I was experiencing to any psychiatrist, as I was aware how they would react because of them. Instead I told a lot about my flashback memories and kept the other stuff as my secret. The psychiatrists made the diagnosis due to how I behaved and how I told them about my condition - my speech was pretty incoherent, and when I started from one thing, I ended up telling them another thing. One could say I was rambling pretty much and as I told them about my visionary and smell flashback memories, I guess they came to the conclusion I was borderline. Indeed no other mental health care worker than my personal physician at Finnish Student Health Service never diagnosed I had PTSD, although I, the patient, personally knew about the syndrome cuz I had read pretty much psychiatric literature in my past. That's why I think the public psychiatry sucks here in Finland, as no psychiatrist at the mental hospital thought my flashback memories were even true, although even I had difficulties to believe in them! Instead the psychiatrist of the mental ward tried to indicate me that I am just so sensitive that I may have created a false memory in order to seek validity for the pain I felt inside. (No need to state that it felt just terrible.)

The worst and the strongest flashback memory I had experienced was me taken into a car by many drunken youngsters and being raped there on the back seat. Other flashbacks were much milder, e.g. a tear drop that falls to the lcd creen of my cell phone. My ex-boyfriend remembers two phonecalls he called me after he left me alone - in the first one I had told him everything was fine and I am going home. During another one of them I had been screaming to the phone "Det are inte sant, det ?r inte sant", which is Swedish and means "It is not true" - during that phonecall my ex-boyfriend heard drunken male noise at the backround before the phone went dead. I have no memory of those phonecalls. Because of my flashback memories and those phonecalls, I think it really can be possible that what I had experienced as flashbacks might have been true, though cuz of the painfulness I keep telling to myself even now that the worst flashback has never been true. Still I hated and still hate when somebody else tries to tell me it is not valid, maybe because deeply inside I really have experienced it - who knows? (Personally I do not wish to know it, and hope the flashback memories never return anymore.)

After starting the medication at the mental ward I finally started becoming more coherent and the touch hallucinations and mental associations (those "signs") ceased. It took about two months and I already was able to study again! As I had been drinking and dulling my senses beside my computer during the whole autumn term, I was very busy with my studies during the spring term at school. I also was finally, after 12 years' time, got rid of any trace of depression and that's why I could be so productive at the university. Since then I have learned to highly value usual everyday life and its simple pleasures - I am happy if I pass a course at school or am able to invent some new by-plot to my scifi comic story, or have accomplished another new drawing. One never knows how precious everyday life is - even with DP/DR - before one experiences something, that devastates it and makes one invalid of feeling anything else than pain. That's why I think any positive feeling/thought, albeit a small and fragile one, is like a sun beam in one's life, illuminating one within with joy. I guess the most important thing in the recovery process is not only the plunge into fear and pain, but also ability to see the positive things that surround us, and giving them the power to lighten up one's life also amidst of pain and misery. Or that's how I see it...


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Oh, Janine has already replied to you (H24) while I was writing the story of my psychosis and PTSD breakdown. I think she is absolutely right about obsessive thoughts - I have nothing to add to her post...


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2004)

Ninnu, that is an amazing account of your trip into psychosis. My mother was schizophrenic and so I know how it was to be around her when she had breaks and to talk with her afterwards. Your ability to describe your experiences is really remarkable.

I hope you write about it all, whether in a book or in your sciFi stories in some way. You have a very good communication style and again, your memory of the things you experience is quite something.

Thanks for that post. It was fascinating to me.

Peace,
Janine


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2004)

Thank you Ninnu and Janine for your amazing posts! I really admire you both: you've suffered so much and still you have been able to leave the bad things behind and enjoy life again. You give me so much hope (and everyone else here too, I guess).

I (now) believe that my thought really are an example of obsessive thoughts. I just wasn't sure if they could lead into psychosis or not. Now I know better. Feelings of DP/DR started about four months ago (I've had many periods of them in the past so this wasn't the first time) and they have been more intense than ever before. For example I've never really suffered from DP until now, only DR, and it has increased my anxiety a lot. Maybe it's because I've quit taking Klonopin about three months ago (too quickly...I got off of K in 7 weeks - I took it 3mg/day - and suffered from terrible withdrawal symptoms). Ever since my anxiety has gotten worse and worse. I've had these obsessive thoughts only for few weeks and they've made me really afraid. I'm a terrible case, I know, but I STILL have a few worries...please be patient with me.

Because I haven't had these obsessions for months, how can I be sure they're just obsessive thoughts and will not lead into psychosis? As Ninnu wrote, her stress levels were very high before her trip into psychosis...so are mine. But I have been very very stressed for months. Obsessive thoughts are quite new. I've also been extremely stressed in the past because of DR, especially when I didn't know what I was experiencing. And it didn't lead into psychosis. This time I'm worried because of these new symptoms: DP and obsessive thoughts. I feels as everything is getting worse and I'm afraid what's next...well, you know what I'm afraid the most.

I also have another question which doesn't bother me much, but I'm curious about it. Does anyone have these very rapid images of different places, for example for childhood surroundings? Are they flasbacks? For me, they are not bad in any way...I would just like to know, what they are and what is causing them. They also occur whenever and wherever they want, I'm not actually thinking about them. I might look at tv and suddenly have this rapid, vivid image of my grandmothers kitchen. The image also includes a very real feeling... or athmosphere, so it's not just a visual thought. They come and they go. It's almost like when you smell something and that smell makes you remember something. In this case the memories just come without explanation and go away fast. Sometimes they bother me a bit, if I get them constantly. Then they prevent me from concentrating on things I'm doing/thinking. I don't remember having them before DP/DR, so I'm wondering if they could be related somehow.

Thank you for reading. I feel like I'm a real pain in the butt, but I have to ask these questions...I've been worrying about them so long that I just have to get them out. I hope you understand. I've been visiting this forum a lot (and the one prior this new one) but I've never wrote anything until now. IMO this place is so amazing and comforting.

H


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Hi Janine - thanks for your nice reply! Indeed I already have created two characters to my scifi comic story, who suffer from painful past experiences. Another one of them has been raped, and commits s*icide in the end of her by-plot, and the other one is a former tribesmember who becomes a street kid and a prostitute, finally ending up having PTSD with flashback memories. Well, still none of my characters do have a psychotic break in the same way I have experienced it, so maybe I could write a book of my mental struggle someday, when I have accomplished my studies and been working for some years - and when I will be much older and wiser than I am currently. If I ever think of writing my experiences, I guess I would do it in a fictional way, as I hardly have skills to do it in any other way. Let's see... :?:

Hi H24, I may relate to how miserable you must feel because of your scary, obsessive thoughts. I remember when I read ghost stories as a young child - after reading the book I was afraid of seeing scary visions every night. It wasn't at all plesant, but still I never saw any scary looking ghosts, however I was terrified cuz of the possibility about seeing them. You may keep in mind that thoughts alone cannot hurt you, in the end they are just thoughts.

You also might tell about your obsessive thoughts to a good psychiatrist and see, if you could get some antipsychotic for help. I don't mean that you should take any pill, but only having the meds around as a "safety blanket" to you - i.e. if you are afraid of beginning to see visions, you always can take a pill that prevents seeing them, if that happened (which I personally don't think it would happen to you though) - may give you some calm. However, I am aware that antipsychotics do have side effects, as I have noticed some of dpselfhelp-forum members have been on antipsychotics and have felt more detached from their surroundings on meds, for example. Indeed I am not any expert in the med thing, so you may ask somebody else - e.g. Janine - about that option.

I personally would be fond of seeing visions in my everyday life, but mostly have been able to see only mild visual distortions on cannabis or on LSD - and without drugs just hypnagogic visions while being in a half-dreamy state on the bed in the evenings. Unfortunately I seem not to be any kind of visionary person, and there are only two times I have experienced any "real hallucinations" in my life (I forgot to tell that in my previous post of PTSD psychosis).

The first time I was on LSD and MDMA (Ecstasy) with my nowadays boyfriend and his friend on an island near Helsinki. I walked to the sea shore and sat down in the nearhood of a rock wall. There I felt I wanna start chanting like Sami people (the indigenous people in North Scandinavia) or Native Americans do, and when I started chanting alone, I began to see images patterning the rock wall. The images were like ancient rock wall paintings here in Scandinavia and I felt very moved cuz of them - the experience felt sacred for me and I felt like being in the womb of Mother Nature.

Another "real hallucination" I experienced while going asleep some years ago, I was not on any drugs at that time. One of the hypnagogic visions I saw felt very intensive and I opened my eyes bc of amazement - and the vision continued, while I was keeping my eyes open. I saw a wooden gate, which slowly opened and then I experienced a "tour" in a beautiful garden with lots of gentle sunlight and green Finnish trees. I think the vision lasted about five minutes in length, and it stopped when the "camera started zooming out" of the garden and the wooden gate was closed slowly. I wanted to see more, but instead I just saw the gate closing several times.

That garden vision, like the one of dancing rock wall paintings, was definitely an experience that I will remember the rest of my life, and would like to see more of them - however since the garden vision I haven't seen anything like it. Indeed at the moment, when I am on antipsychotic Zyprexa 10 mg, I am quite inable to see even those hypnagogic visions before going to sleep, but it doesn't bother me, as I know I'll probably start seeing them again, when it will be the time I can slowly stop my medication.

About my flashback memories; I never experienced them as "really being there" like the PTSD Vietnam veteran in the action movie Rambo I - instead I got them as smell hallucinations or as hypnagogic visions before going to sleep. As I seem to be able to experience also real hallucinations (the vision of the garden) in rare occasions, it is curious that my mind didn't show me the stuff from the night 1998 in the same way during my PTSD breakdown. I guess human psyche can be also gentle toward oneself, and that's why I never saw the flashback memories like exactly being there again. Instead I got those memories as smells (e.g. the smell of car tire + drunken breath + male sweat) and I think it was like that because it was a gentler way of doing the memory retrieval for me. I am very grateful for that, and maybe I should give thanks for the universe for how my psyche is built up.

That's why I'm pretty sure you too needn't worry about going crazy, as you have already experienced those mental images of pleasant memories - instead of those scary thoughts you are afraid of seeing! I think that is a very strong indication that your psyche won't ever send you any scary visions, although you have experienced obsessive thoughts about them... What I am trying to say, it is that if one sees visions, they in no way needn't be negative visions. And I guess you know that, as also you have experienced those mental images/memories while awake sometimes.

So I guess you may feel peaceful about this thing - you likely will never see any scary things, though your obsessive thoughts are like that. Thoughts alone doesn't lead to psychosis, it is the overall condition of your psyche that "decides" that - for me it needed PTSD memory retrieval & severe depression, and the stress burden bc of the flashback memories was really, really huge. I think you are in no way in the similar spot in your life at the moment... As Janine said, you probably would have already seen those visions you are afraid of, if your psyche were in that kind of condition. Instead what you have experienced are nice mental images - and I think that's why you may feel calm about this. Your psyche seems not to be your enemy, after all.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

H24 said:


> I also have another question which doesn't bother me much, but I'm curious about it. Does anyone have these very rapid images of different places, for example for childhood surroundings? Are they flasbacks? --- I don't remember having them before DP/DR, so I'm wondering if they could be related somehow.


I'd like to offer one thought (or rather a guess) that came to my mind - might those "mental image memories" you have experienced be some kind of way your psyche is trying to connect you with reality again? I don't know, but if you keep seeing pleasant things from your childhood for example, they might give you concrete memories/feelings of those situations, in which you yet wasn't experiencing DP? This was just a guess... :?:


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## kenc127 (Aug 10, 2004)

yes H24 I get that too. I get kind of like a deja vu feeling or a really powerful memory of my childhood; sometimes they come in floods. If it bothers you that usually means there is an emotional connection to the memory or "childhood setting". What I have found to work for this is to determine the type of emotion involved when it occurs. In other words, does it make me anxious, upset, happy, sad, etc. If its good emotion I just try to enjoy it as a passed memory. If its bad or makes me feel uncomfortable I try to think of it as my mind's way of purging itself of the hurt caused by the memory, and then grieve it, cry it out, scream it out whatever. Anything that helps you address the emotion caused by the memory or 'image' is good. I got this REALLY bad when my DP first started. I actually felt that I was living my childhood over again. What I later found is that I locked up so many painful events inside, that they started to resurface when I least expected them too. But if they don't bother you, then enjoy them as something out of the ordinary that connects you to your past. Crazy life. I went off the psychological deep end just now, but I hope this helps.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Hi kenc127 - oh no, me too wanna experience my childhood memories in that way! Well, no kidding, indeed that kind of retrieval of childhood memories might be beneficial to me too, as I have experienced many painful things as a child due to my mother's many years' period as an alcoholic. But OK... I realize my psyche is like it is, and it keeps giving me only hypnagogic visions. And those visions that have occurred most frequently are not related in any way to real memories; the difference from the flashbacks lies in their empty content - they don't include any strong memory/emotion like the PTSD flashbacks did to me. I have a weird mind, mostly it just entertains me without any important stuff - and gives truthful glimpses only on very rare occasions... *sigh*


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## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

I'm going to have to agree with Janine here and say, quit worrying about DP/DR turning into schizophrenia or other sort of psychosis. The simple fact that you fear that is a testament to your sanity. I admit I've been guilty of that as well. There have been a few times where my DP has been so bad, I felt like I was going to jump out of my skin and absolutely lose it. But, you know what, it never happens and things get better. If you've ever read literature about DP disorder and panic disorder, you'll find one of their defining characteristics is the fear of going crazy. So, the fear of going crazy is sanity pure and simple.

Ninnu, in your case, you were so young when you first got DP, the possibility of psychosis could probably not be ruled out. How old were you when you first got Borderline Personality Disorder? If you are 24 or 25 years old, the chances are if you have schizophrenia, you probably would have had some sort of psychotic experience by now. There are exceptions of course. Even if you're 20 or 21, you can probably breathe a sigh of relief. Some people develop schizophrenia because hallucinogenic drugs like LSD and mushrooms trigger a latent gene. If you have DP anyway, you shouldn't be doing those anway. So, if you're still worried and want to protect yourself, the best thing you can do is to lay off all substances which disturb your brain chemistry, which is just about any drug.


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## peacedove (Aug 15, 2004)

Gimpy, my first DP experience was when I was six years old. Are you saying that I have a greater chance of developing schizophrenia now? I've always been afraid that I either had schizophrenia (before I found out my unreality symptoms were DP) or would develop it... maybe it progressing from my DP or some other reason. So I read up a bit on schizophrenia and it said that women usually get it as children or in their mid to late twenties which freaks me out cuz I'm 22.


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## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

Sorry if I freaked you out. That's not what I'm saying at all. First of all, your DP is not going to develop into shizophrenia. That's almost like saying your Parkinson's disease could develop into Alzheimer's disease or something. They are both neurological diseases and somewhat related, but you're not going to get one or the other if you don't carry the gene for them. The chances are very slim. If you've made it 22 years of your life without schizophrenia, you've probably made it. You are no greater risk for developing schizphrenia than a depressed but otherwise normal person.

I need to stop giving advice. The only reason I mentioned drugs is that some people can carry the gene for schizophrenia but it may not surface until triggered by drugs.


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## peacedove (Aug 15, 2004)

Ninnu... you say "I have been interested in shamanism, lucid dreams and mind-altering drugs for a long time, because I am a person who would like to experience visions". (I don't know how to do that quote thing you guys do) Anyway... have you ever heard of a book called "The Art of Dreaming" by Carlos Castaneda? Your talk about that black energy trying to consume you and "the guy from the future" telling you they are just "earth energies" which are drawn to you because you think about them and thus give them power remind me of the book. Carlos Castaneda is an anthropologist who had an apprenticeship with a Mexican Yaqui Indian sorcerer, don Juan Matus, and this book is about this apprenticeship. The black energy was called an inorganic being and "the guy from the future" I think would be the "dreaming emissary".

Now if this is the type of stuff that was apart of your having a breakdown then please don't read it, but I don't know I just figured I'd ask. I actually stopped reading it cuz I was brought up Christian and my uncle basically told me if I messed with this stuff I'd go to hell..... the energies and third eye and what not. But I think I might finish the book. I am very interested in lucid dreaming cuz I've had some lucid dreams. One was where I knew I was sleeping but I couldn't wake up, and in my dream I would walk around my house, go to my bed and tell myself to wake up, and I'd "wake up" but then would realize I was still dreaming and I kept "waking up" in this dream until finally I woke up for real somehow. Very scary. And you mention one of your dreams that turned into a vision and the "camera started zooming out" at the end that's exactly what happened to me during a dream but I stayed asleep with my eyes closed I think. It was like a camera zooming in and out and my mom kept bothering me, waking me up, and I was able to go back to the camera and zoom in... ok I'll shut up I'm probably boring you.

But I just thought I'd mention this cuz I saw some relations to what you were saying and what it says in the book. By the way... what is a "hypnagogic vision"?


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## peacedove (Aug 15, 2004)

Thank you gimpy... don't stop giving advice I'm just kind of a hypochondriac, thank you for clarifying I feel better now.


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2004)

Just wanted to say THANK YOU for everyone! Having these kind of obsessions is really awful, as you might know. It helps to know I'm not alone with these thoughts and that it's possible to get rid of them in time (as some of you have).

I've been reading a book called The Anxiety & Phobia Workbook by Edmund J. Bourne and I've learned a lot about my unconcious beliefs and things that increase my anxiety. I've also learned that this DP/DR is a SYMPTOM (or it is for me) and I should focus on my core beliefs etc. to relieve my anxiety. That way DP/DR & obsessive thoughts might also go away and if they don't, I should try to learn how to live with them...

One thing I read from the book that made me feel a little bit better was the explanation of WHY I feel this way. I've been trying to find out the core reason for my feelings of DP/DR, anxiety etc. for YEARS. And the truth is, there is no ONE but SEVERAL reasons. At least this is the truth in my case. First of all, I have a personality that is prone to anxiety. Some people just get anxious more easely than others and I happen to be one of them. This is the biological factor. I might still feel ok, if I didn't have the kind of childhood I had. If my parents had loved me unconditionally, I might have developed into a "normal" person. Instead, I'm trying to please everyone because I fear they wont except me and I also demand too much from my self as did my parents. Then I also have this negative self talk, negative beliefs etc. that affect the way I feel/behave. And finally, add huge amount of enduring stress and the perfect mix for anxiety & DP/DR is there. I believe that in my case, I developed DP/DR because of all these previous factors. And I want to believe that if I learn to change little by little my unconcious way of thinking, my anxiety will lift and hopefully DP/DR will lift too. For me, the book that I mentioned, has really opened my eyes. I can't spend the rest of my life crying why me and not do anything. I also can't wait that someone will rescue me and make me feel well. The answer lies within me and only I can help my self. At least I have to try and if I don't succeed, only then I can cry my eyes out.


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2004)

wow "the scream" is so freaky, I guess the girl or whatever on the painting faces death or something. Really spooky.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Hi gimpy - yes, I was very young (14 years) when I started experiencing DP/DR, but it didn't include any other symptoms; only the feeling like being asleep or being inside invisible icy walls. Indeed I had never even seen hypnagogic visions while waiting for sleep in bed, before I started experimenting psychedelics. When I suffered my PTSD breakdown I was 25 years (year 2000), and had never experienced anything like that before the break. Well, I had sometimes felt those short episodes of "heightened ability to create associations", but those experiences were in no way comparable to the psychosis, as I didn't think them as any sign from the universe, nor did they ever happen while I was not on drugs. I don't think that I should be afraid of schizophrenia, as I have experienced only two psychotic episodes, the first one because of enourmous stress due to PTSD, and the second one because of sudden withdrawal of antipsychotic.

Both of those episodes were got in control with antipsychotics and with my current medication, antipsychotic Zyprexa and antidepressant Remeron, I can study full-time and live normal everyday life. I also am pretty sure that someday in the future I can live life without meds, just like my boyfriend is living now. He has also suffered a psychotic break before I met him, and he thinks his psychosis was triggered by one dose of amphetamine (nobody should ever try that drug!), daily use of cannabis (not very wise either) and huge amount of stress. However, at the moment my boyfriend is not on any antipsychotic - he hasn't used them for ages - but still he can live normal everyday life without difficulties, though he has a somewhat stressful job. So one psychosis experienced doesn't necessarily mean schizophrenia - in no way. For schizophrenia one "needs" the kind of psyche that cannot handle stress without shattering, I guess - that means the psychosis is likely to occur under any stressful situation and the person hardly has any other coping mechanisms for stress. Or that's how I see it, but I am not an expert.

I'm aware that the regular use of psychedelic drugs may lead to psychological problems - I know quite many people who have suffered psychosis because of them - but for developing psychosis cuz of drug use one needs the genetic tendency or just irresponsible use of psychedelics. That's why currently I have used MDMA (Ecstasy) only once in a summer for self-therapy, and cannabis once in a month - sometimes twice in a month, though quite seldom. Last time I ate LSD and psilocybine mushrooms (both alone, of coz not combined together!) was 1999, when I was watching total sun eclipse at Ozora, Hungary - still I feel it is not time to try them again. I don't want to use drugs more often, as I notice too regular use may lead to problems - for example depression, or even psychosis. That's why I don't recommend the use of psychedelics or other recreational drugs for anyone, as I am aware one may have a chance of developing problems cuz of drug use.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Hello peacedove, yes - some years ago I have read some books by Carlos Castaneda. Though at that time I was not yet interested in hallucinogens, so I found the books a bit too peculiar and hardly understood their content. Well, nowadays I have heard quite many people recommending Castaneda's books, so I'll give them a second try and borrow that book you mentioned from the library. I believe in the Jungian concept of collective mythic unconscious, so it would be great to find some things I experienced during my PTSD psychosis also in the book! I'll say I'm already interested! 

I also have experienced lucid dreams sometimes, though not so often I would like to. Last time it was summer 2002, when I saw a very powerful lucid dream - I think it could be called a shamanic journey, because in that dream I met several spirit helpers who tried to help me with my current life issues. After that I also have exprienced a couple of lucid dreams, but they have been more dreamy-like, so I don't think they may have the credit to be called a shamanic journey. The most fascinating thing in "shamanic lucid dreams" I have experienced is their mythic symbol content, the dreams are always full of beautiful symbolic imagery. That's why I would be delighted to see that kind of dreams more often, but it seems my psyche doesn't send me them but only occasionally. I have sometimes pondered it may be like that, because I need time to digest the dream content before experiencing a new dream. Dunno...

About hypnagogic visions - they are hallucinations, which one experiences before going to sleep in a bed. Here's the quote of one definition I found online: _"Hypnagogic hallucinations are dream-like experiences that occur during the transition (passage) from wakefulness to sleep, whereas hypnopompic hallucinations are those that occur during the transition from sleep to wakefulness. These hallucinations (distorted sensations or perceptions) may involve hearing, vision, touch, balance, or movement."_ The hypnagogic visions I have seen have usually been sceneries, but sometimes I have seen people in them - once I saw an image of my littlebrother's room. My littlebrother was sitting beside his computer and my littlesister was watching television, sitting on my littlebrother's bed. After that vision I thought to call my littlebrother and sister and ask where they are, but I didn't have the courage for that. When I told about the vision to my mother she was fascinated and insisted that I should phonecall them next time I see something like that - wow, if I was clairvoyant? Well, I don't think so but maybe I could have the courage to find out next time I see something alike... 8)


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