# I cannot believe I am back here again..



## googleeyes (Apr 25, 2012)

So, most of you won't remember me. I was last active here in 2009, under a username I have long since forgotten.

I honestly thought I would never return, the circular thinking of this forum is not exactly beneficial to recovery. But here I am:

I managed to make it out of the dr/dp hell after nearly 3 years. I contribute this largely to healthy living and lexapro.

My remaining symptoms were only dizziness and some weird visual things. My thinking was that the SSRI I had been on for the last 4 years was making these symptoms worse. So I came off.

It's been a hellish withdrawal filled ride for the last month, but I finally made it though the sweats, the fevers, the crying spells, and the sickness. And now here I am, back in dp/dr land.

I have no idea what to do. I no longer have the coping mechanisms for this, nor do I have the time to wait this out. Is it the return of some anxiety that is causing this, or was the SSRI balancing my brain in some way, and now I have teetered back into dp/dr.

I've read that I can't go back on lexapro once I quit because it wont work properly. I am freaking out right now, I can't do this again. It's so hard. I just want to end it, if this is what my life will be.

What can I do?!


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## googleeyes (Apr 25, 2012)

Fearless,

To expand on that, do you believe I masked the anxiety or did I mask it by artificially changing my neurotransmitters. Both perhaps irrelevant.

If acting like everything is OK and continuing on with your life is masking it than I don't know what to do. The drug was just a crutch.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2013)

There is NO medication that 'cures' dissociative disorders...

P


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## googleeyes (Apr 25, 2012)

Fearless said:


> Hah, you continued your life without understanding how did you got into DP/DR in the first place. It was only a matter of time before you relapsed.
> 
> When we don't learn from our mistakes, we will do them again.


I got DP/DR after having MDMA one night that spiralled into a 6-hour panic attack. However, I have no early childhood abuse or the like to think of. Reading your blog I'm having trouble applying it to my case as I don't have the traumatic memories to go back to. The moving past, and accepting is what I did to get through it in the first place. I by no means took a drug to just cover it up.



Philo said:


> There is NO medication that 'cures' dissociative disorders...
> 
> P


No, but it is a common theme to take something to help you get back on your feet, enabling you to get out and do things. Once you can go out, socialize and be with friends without a second thought to dp/dr, I would consider that cured.


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## peanut butter (Nov 9, 2012)

I find it funny that people actually think you can have DP just like that after living a life with no problems. (= I have no trauma or abuse history )
Why do you want to believe that you lived happily until DP?

How in the hell could you even accept that a thing like DP would just suddenly come to your life ( which, by you, had no problems before DP at all ) and stay chronic. It sounds even worse than cancer.

I see it like this, if somebody would truly live happily, confident and stable without any problems in history and would someday get DP, he'd most likely consider suicide. Why? Because it's no fucking possible. But people with abuse know something is wrong and have gotten used to shitty quality of life from childhood.

Even in the science community it is known that DP is caused by emotional abuse.

But some just want to be selfish and think that such thing exists.


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## googleeyes (Apr 25, 2012)

mmrrlla,

I'm having trouble understanding your post, but I'll take a stab at it.

I accepted the dp/dr as something that was part of me, instead of trying to fight it. I think you are underestimating the average person's will to stay alive. People do not commit suicide so easily.

DP is not very well established in the science community. There are many conflicting views concerning chronic dp/dr. Emotional issues may be one cause but it is not a catch-all.

This forum has a very different vibe than I recall, but I guess it's a new generation of users.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2013)

googleeyes said:


> No, but it is a common theme to take something to help you get back on your feet, enabling you to get out and do things. Once you can go out, socialize and be with friends without a second thought to dp/dr, I would consider that cured.


I wouldn't say 'that's cured'. Not for one second. That's just fooling yourself.

I could go out and fill my nostrils with high grade coke and have 'the best night out ever and feel fantastic!' I wouldn't say I'm cured though.


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## googleeyes (Apr 25, 2012)

Don't be so arrogant. No one would try to argue that their life was perfect before dp/dr hit them. But I am saying, that I don't have any terrible memories that I can recall. None.

I have been to psychologists and psychiatrists, in fact, I have been to probably every professional you can think of. None of these professionals were able to dig up any ghosts from my past.

Now ignoring your slightly rude sarcasm: Do you believe that it is impossible to enter a state of dp/dr without having previously experienced childhood trauma of some flavour?


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2013)

googleeyes said:


> Don't be so arrogant. No one would try to argue that their life was perfect before dp/dr hit them. But I am saying, that I don't have any terrible memories that I can recall. None.
> 
> I have been to psychologists and psychiatrists, in fact, I have been to probably every professional you can think of. None of these professionals were able to dig up any ghosts from my past.
> 
> Now ignoring your slightly rude sarcasm: Do you believe that it is impossible to enter a state of dp/dr without having previously experienced childhood trauma of some flavour?


Without appearing rude or arrogant.. can I just ask a question or two?

Did the psychiatrists or psychologists you saw, ever have any insight into why you may have dp/dr?

Out of all the professionals/experts you saw.. apart from the prescriptions they may have offered, did they help or offer help in any other way?


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## googleeyes (Apr 25, 2012)

Philo said:


> Without appearing rude or arrogant.. can I just ask a question or two?
> 
> Did the psychiatrists or psychologists you saw, ever have any insight into why you my have dp/dr?
> 
> Out of all the professionals/experts you saw.. apart from the prescriptions they may have offered, did they help or offer help in any other way?


Yes, I had one psychologist attempt to dig into why I had dp/dr. Although, looking into people's pasts rarely helps the person out. (Which is why modern day psychs no longer do this) Finding the cause of something often does nothing to help the present.

As far as insight goes, it is widely believed that dp/dr persists in the anxious state. So my drug use was the trigger, my anxiety now the cause.

Despite what this forum might think, I've been around the block a few times. I've been exposed to dp/dr for a long time and have explored everything under the sun. Believe it or not, everything Fearless says can be found in a variety of books concerning coping with stress and anxiety.


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## googleeyes (Apr 25, 2012)

The regiment usually goes something like this:

-accept you have dp and it is temporary

-learn to relax and live with it

-go out and socialize

-dont let it stop you from doing anything

-dont think about it

-get involved in your life

-re-imerge a beautiful butterfly


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## googleeyes (Apr 25, 2012)

Fearless, you can hardly compose a sentence without your toxic condescending attitude gleaming through. I simply asked a question, you replied with a blog. Upon reading your blog I voiced my concern at not having experienced any trauma that I am aware of.

Instead of addressing my concerns, you laughed it off and carried on your merry way. You are seeing the world through the narrow scope of a child. You experienced dp/dr, you found your cause and proceeded to get better.

Now, only someone truly inexperienced would believe that their strategy would completely and uniformly work for every other sufferer. And only a fool would dismiss every other cause. But I believe that fool is you.

Perhaps you would be wise to learn from me? I've suffered longer, been recovered longer, and have been apart of these forums much longer.

A word to anyone taking Fearless's advice as gospel:

It is only one piece of the puzzle, even he has not yet realized this.

And, just because you may feel respect for someone, do not let them walk all over you, or make you feel insignificant.

I have been going through some of his posts, and the language he uses coupled with his superiority complex do not make him a good leader.

Just because he acts like what he says is correct, does not make it so.


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## googleeyes (Apr 25, 2012)

Fearless said:


> I may not know everything, but I do know, that I have recovered more than a year ago, and haven't relapsed for one day since. You are in DP, but you are


This, is exactly what you know. You have recovered and know the means *you* used to get there. This is not an excuse to shut down other peoples opinions under the guise of helping them. I've watched many other people recover, both with, and without the use of medication. Not all of them followed one path, so don't attempt to put them there.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2013)

googleeyes said:


> The regiment usually goes something like this:
> 
> -accept you have dp and it is temporary
> 
> ...


The problem is people do all of that only to re-enter their normal life with exactly the same issues that brought on DP in the first place; so they relapse over and over again. These emotional issues are far from easy to pick up on and most people deny having them, and just going to various psychs doesn't mean much, because they can only work with what's shown to them. So if you have no awareness of your issues then, neither will they; it's be like going to the doctor and expecting a full diagnosis from a headache.

Understanding peoples past is very important because it changes how whatever issues they have might be treated. If three people come in with headaches and no effort is made to look into the potential causes then all three will be sent away with a few pain killers. The reality is one has chronic migraines another took a hammer to the head and the third had a brain tumor, the headache was a symptom of a larger issue. Anxiety, depression and even DP/DR are also very often symptoms of other issues in peoples live; which is why people struggle with them over and over again.

Any way, it takes a lot of research and personnel reflection to find the emotional issues that cause DP/DR, or even the anxiety leading up to it; a psych simply can't do it for you.


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## googleeyes (Apr 25, 2012)

Fearless said:


> I attempt what I want to attempt, if you don't like what I say use the ignore feature on the site and ignore my posts. What you do is fooling yourself and escaping into masking your problems with meds, and I will tell my opinion about it anytime I feel like I need to.


Dear Fearless,

You have failed to back up any of your claims or refute any of mine. You have now turned to the childish banter of "I attempt what I want to attempt."

If you are unable, or lack the capacity to participate in debate, I suggest you refrain from posting. You are making yourself look bad and losing whatever little credibility you had.


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## googleeyes (Apr 25, 2012)

Antimony said:


> The problem is people do all of that only to re-enter their normal life with exactly the same issues that brought on DP in the first place; so they relapse over and over again. These emotional issues are far from easy to pick up on and most people deny having them, and just going to various psychs doesn't mean much, because they can only work with what's shown to them. So if you have no awareness of your issues then, neither will they; it's be like going to the doctor and expecting a full diagnosis from a headache.
> 
> Understanding peoples past is very important because it changes how whatever issues they have might be treated. If three people come in with headaches and no effort is made to look into the potential causes then all three will be sent away with a few pain killers. The reality is one has chronic migraines another took a hammer to the head and the third had a brain tumor, the headache was a symptom of a larger issue. Anxiety, depression and even DP/DR are also very often symptoms of other issues in peoples live; which is why people struggle with them over and over again.
> 
> Any way, it takes a lot of research and personnel reflection to find the emotional issues that cause DP/DR, or even the anxiety leading up to it; a psych simply can't do it for you.


But what if I don't fit that criteria. Drawing from your analogy of a headache: Just as one person's dp/dr might be caused from deep seated emotional issues; another's may be caused by a head injury, a drug, or a traumatic event.

For the first year that I had dp/dr, I considered everything that had ever happened in my life. There was no issue that stood out. I had just taken mdma one day and BAM, I felt like this.

I believe that for myself and many others, the event that triggered the dp/dr was the sole cause. It is now perpetuating itself in the anxious mind. The sheer anxiety of the event was enough to put me in this state, any additional child abuse was not necessary.

I think you are leading a lot of people to needlessly comb through their past looking for abuse, that may not be there. There is a famous book by Claire Weekes called hope and help for your nerves. It goes into detail what you guys are doing here and why it may not be helpful.


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## L.Z. (Oct 15, 2012)

I think you are leading a lot of people to needlessly comb through their past looking for abuse, that may not be there.

TRUE THAT


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2013)

I'm asking people to get a better understanding of themselves by looking at their past so they can improve their emotional health; there's no such thing as improving yourself for nothing. The truth is that most people live their life with a lot of emotional issues purely because they never had an outside perspective to tell them that some of the ways they see themselves, act and feel are unhealthy. I'm not asking people to look for trauma and abuse that might not exist, I'm asking them to look for unhealthy trends in their life, and that takes a solid understanding of emotional health that most people lack; it's an extensive learning experience. Pushing people to do this is important because most simply won't, not because it would be useless to them, but because they are ignorant of how it will help.

I hardly consider this needless because if a person dose it well, it can only benefit them. People recommenced diet and exercise full well knowing that they do nothing to directly combat DP/DR, but that they simply improve a persons overall health making recovery significantly easier.


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## BenElger (Feb 8, 2012)

I don't think there is a problem with your ''theory'' Fearless and I think people would genuinely listen to you if you were a bit nicer. I think it's the way you put it across. It looks to me every time you post that you are fed up of helping people, you come across as very rude. Maybe if you want people to listen to you or take your advice and take you more seriously (which you clearly do or you wouldn't still be here trying to help), you should work on your attitude and stop acting like everyone should already know all these things. It seems that as soon as someone questions you, you get all defensive.

That's just my opinion but you probably wont take it on board.


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

This is a good thread. Im in the same boat as googleyes as I cant find any memories of a traumatic nature, so what now? I have unhealthy
emotional tendencies but I cant link it to my parents, its just something thats happened to me because im very negative and skeptical about life.

I appreciate the fact that you are trying to tell Fearless that you dont fit his criteria OP, but he simply wont listen.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2013)

L.Z. said:


> I think you are leading a lot of people to needlessly comb through their past looking for abuse, that may not be there.
> 
> TRUE THAT


Something Freud did, and many in the psychoanalytic school. They quite enjoy keeping you for long periods of time -- years -- to suck money out of you -- psychoanalysis is extrmely expensive and often not covered by insurance. I have a rather dim view of psychoanalysis, but other forms of talk therapy, supportive, CBT, DBT, etc. can be very helpful.

DEALING with what you know was a abuse is different from trying to find some "hidden abuse" you are completely unaware of. In experiements uni students have been "convinced" something happened to them -- say "be abandoned in a department store" (with their parents in on the experiment.) Ultimately the students believed what was a completley made up story. Memory is an entirely different branch of psychology/psychiatry/neurology. It's rather dicey to play with memory. A good way to jerk someone around.

This is also what therapists did in the 1980s and 1990s -- convincing children they had been molested in Satanic Ritual abuses. The children got so fed up with the questions they said, "Yeah, sure, I was touched on my wee wee by Miss. X in a spaceship." Individuals have been convinced they murdered someone when they didn't, or admit to things as they simply want a 12 year interrogation to end. Torture is a great way to do this as well. Someone will admit to anything if forced to admit it.

There have been many scandals re: creation of false "alter personalities" -- digging up traumas that didn't occur which subsequently destroyed families. These doctors were sued.

Freud insisted his female patients MUST have been molested (when they came in for anxiety or depression). When they insisted they weren't he MADE them admit to it. They either wished to please him, or were terrorized by him. Freud later changed his theory to a generalized problem -- the Oedipus and Elektra complexes.

There are grains of truth in Freud, such as projection, reaction-formation, transference, etc. But these occur in all relationships.

However, if psychoanalysis works for someone -- great.

To each his own.
But the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.


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## infinite loop (Jun 4, 2013)

I can understand both sides of the argument. I know a lot of people have drug-induced DP, which may be the singular cause of their onset. At the same time, it's entirely possible that either a) the drug use unmasked an underlying anxiety disorder which triggered it (that the person may have dealt with their whole life on a smaller scale), or b) that the drug use itself was a subconscious escape from problems they had yet to address.

I feel like I understand the cause of mine. I've always been an anxious, self conscious person and something health-related triggered mine, which led to a downward spiral. But it's still because of me, my anxious personality and my own negative thinking. I think that may be what Fearless is trying to get across; regardless of whether or not drugs actually triggered it, there was an underlying personal thing that allowed it to take root, whether it was anxiety, depression, or something else.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2013)

There is so much emotionally manipulative material here it's jaw-dropping. Let's take a closer look.



Fearless said:


> Ah, or maybe I should pay them, right? Maybe I should beg them to read a blog where I wrote 50+ posts, by doing very hard work, spending long nights on putting my hard-earned knowledge into words so people can have it on one place *FOR FREE*, right?
> 
> --translation. "Look at all I do for you. You're so ungrateful."
> 
> ...


That stuff's pretty obvious, but this is the worst of all:



selig said:


> Becoming offended over a persons' approach is another indication of not taking ownership over your own emotions and ability to regulate your self-esteem. Indulging in your sense of low self-worth because you simply cannot allow your ego to be threatened is going to hold you back in recovery. Learn to live humility and listen with your mind and not your issues.
> 
> --translation: "Your feelings about being mistreated are your fault. I invalidate your feelings."


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Fearless said:


> Umm, when I talk about abuse that the sufferer is not aware of, I'm not talking about "repressed memories", even though that did happen to me with several traumatic memories. And it was not a therapist who convinced me, it was my grandmother who told me that my father hit me when she got into an argument with him and I tried to defend her (My father PROHIBITED me to think of him as anything than a good father, so I had to "ignore" those events). This is how our mind works. If you look at your father as good and all-loving, your brain wants to make sense of things, and it'll filter out everything that doesn't fit into that image. Children who grow up in dysfunctional families actually blame themselves for the problem, and they feel guilty, start being a perfectionist, etc.. Because accepting that their parents are just fucked up, would overwhelm the child. So it instead blames itself, and get some illusionary control back that way.
> 
> But when I talk about stuff like "hidden abuse", I simply talk about the fact that guys who come here and tell me that I should shut up because they haven't been through emotional abuse, don't even know what emotional abuse is, and on top of that, this is the usual mindset for abused people. Emotional abuse is when you are CONVINCED that the way they treat you is NORMAL, and the abuse is sold to you as something you DESERVE.
> 
> No parent holds a banner saying "THIS IS EMOTIONAL ABUSE, MY DAUGTHER, I'M A BAD PARENT" while emotionally abusing their children.


At the end of the day mate, you are just a bit of a prick in your posts, and you can't take it when people point that out to you. You genuinely can't see it.

Your stock response of 'if you don't like it, ignore me' or 'I am doing this for you for free' or whatever else you do is just a defense mechanism you use to shut down potential debate about your theories or whatever theory you are representing.

You don't have to be like that, you know it as well as I do. I love reading some of your blog posts and the links you point to because I've learnt quite alot about myself in a superficial way (because alot of it doesn't apply to me), BUT your attitude is out of order.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2013)

You replied to me twice, Selig, which suggests that you were offended. Let me give you some advice:



selig said:


> Becoming offended over a persons' approach is another indication of not taking ownership over your own emotions and ability to regulate your self-esteem. Indulging in your sense of low self-worth because you simply cannot allow your ego to be threatened is going to hold you back in recovery. Learn to live humility and listen with your mind and not your issues.


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## Funky Buddha (Apr 12, 2013)

Okay, I'm going to be honest about what I truly think. I think that Fearless has some good advice about looking into your past to try and resolve any bad memorys to relieve the anxiety thus relieving the DP / DR. BUT, do you think that people who have DP / DR caused by drugs would actually not benefit at all from looking into your past memorys, in fact it might make it worse.

If you have anxiety and you look into your memorys then you will end up causing more anxiety anyway. For everytime you try and find a cure for DP / DR what you're really doing is thinking about it, all the time which is not going to resolve your DP / DR. If you're thinking about your DP / DR it's not going to go away.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

I think DP varies differently from person to person and there is really no general fix that can be applied to regulate and permanately fix the issue. It is largely dependent on the persons personality and how they have disassociated. One should not insist it is caused by some form of emotional abuse although that could be the cause in many cases. We are all unique in our own way and have our own ways of operating. The only thing we are capable of doing is understanding what DP/DR is; it is up for the person to understand how he/she has triggered it. It can range from intense emotional abuse, truamatic events, to something very simple which causes anxiety and thus leads to DP. There really is no way of knowing unless you are the other person.


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## Swansea (Jun 11, 2013)

I believe people can absolutely get DP solely from an organic brain disorder like anxiety and or depression. I think it is totally arrogant and insensitive to force everyone into the box of "DP is caused by abuse". There is never one size fits all. Life is a journey, everyone is unique, and you have to figure out what works for you and DP is no different than everything else in life. I mean the equation of this is even flawed. People say stress and childhood trauma or trauma in general cause DP. One of the things that can be a great cause of trauma is in fact anxiety, depression, or some other organic brain disorder. I do think its rare for people to have brain disorders that arent caused by some sort of trauma BUT it does exist. People are absolutely born with 'chemical imbalances' as much as someone is born with diabetes.

Now with that said I still believe that some of the Harris Harrington exercises and fearless's blog can help mostly anyone. It is all about creating a firmer sense of Self so you don't float out into dissociation.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

I really dislike witnesssing such negativity flying and being spewed on this board between people who do not agree with each other. Yes, Fearless may appear arrogant, but under the right circumstances. He did dedicate time to write TONS of helpful advice for those who are suffering and nobody should really feel inclined to bash him because of this. In the end, he is attempting to help people understand what this disorder is and how to cooperate with it. To an extent, I agree that Lepraxo WAS masking the dudes symptoms because no DRUG can cure a disassociation disorder except ultimately worsen it once you stop using it. Many people also try to distort their understanding of what DP when in fact it is VERY simple. There is a reason why countless people on this planet do not once experience it. This is why I tend to side with what Fearless says. When you say "I haven't experienced any traumatic events" NO, perhaps you haven't, but I bet that you have a history of suppressed emotions, things you weren't happy about, things you got depressed about. There are many factors which inevitably lead to this sort of mentality. Do not bash Fearless because he is attempting to simplify and assist resolving an issue you perceive to be very complex and beyond your understanding. Because if that were true you never would've had DP in the first place


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## Swansea (Jun 11, 2013)

Jurgen said:


> I really dislike witnesssing such negativity flying and being spewed on this board between people who do not agree with each other. Yes, Fearless may appear arrogant, but under the right circumstances. He did dedicate time to write TONS of helpful advice for those who are suffering and nobody should really feel inclined to bash him because of this. In the end, he is attempting to help people understand what this disorder is and how to cooperate with it. To an extent, I agree that Lepraxo WAS masking the dudes symptoms because no DRUG can cure a disassociation disorder except ultimately worsen it once you stop using it. Many people also try to distort their understanding of what DP when in fact it is VERY simple. There is a reason why countless people on this planet do not once experience it. This is why I tend to side with what Fearless says. When you say "I haven't experienced any traumatic events" NO, perhaps you haven't, but I bet that you have a history of suppressed emotions, things you weren't happy about, things you got depressed about. There are many factors which inevitably lead to this sort of mentality. Do not bash Fearless because he is attempting to simplify and assist resolving an issue you perceive to be very complex and beyond your understanding. Because if that were true you never would've had DP in the first place


I don't know. What about the idea that he was experiencing anxiety provoked depersonalization and the lexapro calmed down the anxiety thus making the DP go away ? Is this really totally unfeasible? I would tell the author of this post to go back on a medication if that helped him while working with a therapist and doing some of harris harrington exercises and fearless's blog. I do not believe that taking meditation negates real healing. I think you can use medication as a tool while at the same time searching and healing the source and gaining better tools of functioning.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

>What about the idea that he was experiencing anxiety provoked depersonalization and the lexapro calmed down the anxiety thus making the DP go away

Anxiety that causes DP should never under any circumstances unless you are literally going to take your life should be treated with any kind of medication because in the end you are going to cease the meditation and begin withdrawing. This is why I REFUSE to take medication because I know the feeling is ultimately a placebo and the moment I stop using it I will once again return to my original state.


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## Swansea (Jun 11, 2013)

Jurgen said:


> >What about the idea that he was experiencing anxiety provoked depersonalization and the lexapro calmed down the anxiety thus making the DP go away
> 
> Anxiety that causes DP should never under any circumstances unless you are literally going to take your life should be treated with any kind of medication because in the end you are going to cease the meditation and begin withdrawing. This is why I REFUSE to take medication because I know the feeling is ultimately a placebo and the moment I stop using it I will once again return to my original sta


I disagree. I was on zoloft in 2006 for depression and depersonalization and it took the depression and depersonalization right away. I started going to yoga and exercising regularly then went off the meds with no withdrawel symptoms. I lasted for 4 + years DP/ and depression free without mediation. Then I took mdma one night and slipped back into DP/ depression which is where I am now.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

And why do you feel depressed/depersonalized? What has triggered this incessant "feeling"? What part of taking MDMA cause you to disassociate?


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## Swansea (Jun 11, 2013)

I believe the mdma provoked an organic brain chemical imbalance. When I was eating healthy, doing yoga, taking care of my body it was under wraps but taking a drug provoked me to get unbalanced again. I believe I was born with a chemical imbalance of depression/anxiety. Most of my family and siblings also deal with some sort of depression/anxiety. do you believe there is no such thing as an organic brain disorder? Currently I am trying to get back to a balanced state without medication. I have been completely sober for 6 months and have been avidly exercising, eating healthy, and taking supplements. So far the DP is not budging this time.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

An organic brain disorder? What do you classify as an "organic brain disorder" exactly? Do people who feel sadness, anxiousness, fear, insensitivity, also hoard this brain disorder? There are countless people who feel sad, anxious, fearful, insensitive, who do not experience and cannot correlate their feelings with DP/DR. If that's the case; everyone can have DP/DR, and this brain disorder you speak of is universal. So therefore; you and everyone else in the world has this problem. But not entirely. Because not everyone experiences DP/DR. Especially your family, I'm sure, who are completely foreign to this feeling. I believe it relates to hypersensitivity and what your subconscious perceives as a threat. I have done MDMA after suffering from chronic depersonalization and was not subject to it afterward. I in fact did it 3 more times on seperate occasions without disassociating. But of course, experiences vary and are not the same for everyone


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2013)

Jurgen said:


> I really dislike witnesssing such negativity flying and being spewed on this board between people who do not agree with each other. Yes, Fearless may appear arrogant, but under the right circumstances. He did dedicate time to write TONS of helpful advice for those who are suffering and nobody should really feel inclined to bash him because of this. In the end, he is attempting to help people understand what this disorder is and how to cooperate with it. To an extent, I agree that Lepraxo WAS masking the dudes symptoms because no DRUG can cure a disassociation disorder except ultimately worsen it once you stop using it. Many people also try to distort their understanding of what DP when in fact it is VERY simple. There is a reason why countless people on this planet do not once experience it. This is why I tend to side with what Fearless says. When you say "I haven't experienced any traumatic events" NO, perhaps you haven't, but I bet that you have a history of suppressed emotions, things you weren't happy about, things you got depressed about. There are many factors which inevitably lead to this sort of mentality. Do not bash Fearless because he is attempting to simplify and assist resolving an issue you perceive to be very complex and beyond your understanding. Because if that were true you never would've had DP in the first place


He shoots down and invalidates everyone around him -which is what abusers do - but you complain about anyone being negative about him. You don't see that what he is doing is dangerous. You don't hear from the vulnerable people he has bullied off the site or into relapse. I have.

But I guess they are just collateral damage.



selig said:


> Some people devote their time to helping others for no benefit. It's called selflessness and empathy.


Amazing, I can't believe you're saying that with a straight face. He is a narcissist with no empathy whatsoever. He uses this site as a narc supply. With so many co-dependant people to feed on, he couldn't stay away if he wanted to. It is entirely self-serving.

You just don't see it, do you.

You assisted him in setting an abusive trap for someone, whereby he attacked and you shut off that person's right to reply. That is core abuse and he does it all the time. See how he brings out a cruel streak in his followers (see the sneering tone of Jurgen's comments above to Swansea.) What does that tell you? Open your eyes. Shame you turned to the dark side.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

Phantasm said:


> He shoots down and invalidates everyone around him -which is what abusers do - but you complain about anyone being negative about him. You don't see that what he is doing is dangerous. You don't hear from the vulnerable people he has bullied off the site or into relapse. I have.
> But I guess they are just collateral damage.
> 
> Amazing, I can't believe you're saying that with a straight face. He is a narcissist with no empathy whatsoever. He uses this site as a narc supply. With so many co-dependant people to feed on, he couldn't stay away if he wanted to. It is entirely self-serving.
> ...


Excuse me but, you can have a "tone" over the Internet? Really? What if behind this computer screen, I'm perfectly composed, happily exchanging my thoughts in a non-sneering manner, and merely attempting to deconstruct something someone finds unsettling? If I wanted to be mean, I could've insulted her and invalidated her information. But in the end, I said, "experiences vary". And wouldn't you feel annoyed if you wasted countless nights working on such information for people to grasp but just refuse to because it's easier to suffer than to take responsibility? Please.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

.


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## googleeyes (Apr 25, 2012)

I appreciate everyone's insight into this issue, and I think that we have learned (and knew) that not everyone agrees on the same aspects of depersonalization. This is quite alright, and I wouldn't have it any other way. That being said, there is some definite aggression and "ganging up" that should not be present here. 
Most people here are under a lot of stress and these heated debates are not beneficial. If you read through the first few posts in this thread, you will quickly pick up on the fact that I was being attacked and condescend to for my differing opinion.

If people feel like this is not a healthy environment, I will happily recreate this forum under a new domain.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

^ I recommend do. This thread got way out of hand.


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## googleeyes (Apr 25, 2012)

As for fearless doing this in selflessness, I would have to disagree. He is doing this for the followers and praise. He feeds off of people needing him and despises those who differ in opinion. Don't believe me? 
Read through his posts very carefully. Do you get the vibe of someone out to love and help everyone? No, his posts are judgemental, hate-filled, and without research.
No one who is truly wise and selfless parades around in such a childish matter.

Is he a bad person? Absolutely not! He is just misguided and inexperienced.


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## Funky Buddha (Apr 12, 2013)

Swansea said:


> I disagree. I was on zoloft in 2006 for depression and depersonalization and it took the depression and depersonalization right away. I started going to yoga and exercising regularly then went off the meds with no withdrawel symptoms. I lasted for 4 + years DP/ and depression free without mediation. Then I took mdma one night and slipped back into DP/ depression which is where I am now.


Zoloft didn't work for me either, I think it's down to the person. Like when I took it I had anxiety because I didn't know how the tablet would effect me thus cauing even more anxiety, making DP / DR worse. You probably went back into DP / DR after MDMA because you were worrying about how the drug will effect you cuing anxiety again.


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## branl (May 21, 2010)

googleeyes said:


> Fearless,
> 
> To expand on that, do you believe I masked the anxiety or did I mask it by artificially changing my neurotransmitters. Both perhaps irrelevant.
> 
> If acting like everything is OK and continuing on with your life is masking it than I don't know what to do. The drug was just a crutch.


I had the same problem, I was taking Citalopram plus lamitcal for 6 years. Last year I came off them, only after time have I relised I am back to square one. Infact I would say I was worse. people say my dp is actually worse now. But they did take the edge off things alot..lamitcal for a life saver while on it.


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## branl (May 21, 2010)

Fearless said:


> You haven't recovered, just masked the symptoms with lexapro, and acted like everything is okay.
> 
> Check my blog, you may find useful info there.


fearless, would you say then, that if someone had something to do in life, ie had to get were they wanted to do, and denied it by not letting it bother the person could that be a cause of dp? Say, you felt inferior not having a job, or your own money, but deep down you were scared about doing that, ie going back into work, or study , could that course dp? the fear of not thinking your good enough to work, or fear of thinking yor not capabale of learning or smart enough to complete a course? ie lots of dboubts.?


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## googleeyes (Apr 25, 2012)

Branl, 
What you are referring to is what many people face everyday. Is this enough to cause dp? No. But with the right predisposition and level of anxiety, it could facilitate dp. Dp can arise from chronic fear, anything that creates this scenario can create dp. I would discourage you from asking why, why, why? And instead focus on what causes you fear and how you can overcome those obstacles.


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## googleeyes (Apr 25, 2012)

Fearless said:


> yes, it can be very serious challenge that you'll dissociate from, and hit that treshold, due to your predispositions. but like I've said it's not that simple. you need to know what disorganized attachment means, the victim-persecutor-rescuer states, you need to realize how they operate in you, codependency, enmeshment, etc..
> 
> When you feel those doubts, inadequacy, etc.. depending on your intelligence, mental skills, etc.. you may do 20-30 "feedbacks" in your head in a second. You need to understand and recognize these mental habits, because those cognitive distortions are what creating these overwhelming feelings.


This is genuinely true.


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## googleeyes (Apr 25, 2012)

Fearless said:


> You are geuinely burning yourself to ashes.


I'm sorry, excuse me? I am doing quite fine actually. I was agreeing with your input. 
Do you feel threatened fearless? It would be shame if everyone realized you have no idea what you are talking about. How many years did you say you spent studying the mind and the complexities of childhood?


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## Funky Buddha (Apr 12, 2013)

What do you do if your DP / DR isn't caused by anxiety caused by your family, rather it was caused by your school life? I mean, it isn't something you can go to and confrount is it ? How would you overcome something like that.


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## googleeyes (Apr 25, 2012)

Kieran, 
I would ask myself, in what way is my school life causing dp/dr? It is absolutely something you could confront. 
I can't give you the steps you should take to overcome is because I don't have enough detail. Is your school life causing you anxiety or discomfort in some way?


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## sunshinita (Aug 13, 2013)

I agree with Swansea,I think some people are just born with chemical imbalance. I have been anxious all my life about all sorts of things,so was my sister. Anxiety runs in the family,I have had strong OCD (which doesn't bother me anymore because I found a way to live with it). I had dp before,it was caused by a panic disorder,today my dp is caused by the same thing.My parents were always loving,I have great friends too,I also don't think I have been abused. The one and only thing I experienced that was close to 'abuse ' is bad relationships with men but I NEVER EVER thought that I deserved to be treated like that.I have a lot of female friends who went through the same thing but they don't have underlying anxiety which can cause DP. Both times I got DP was 3-4 months after breakups but that's just because my anxiety and depression got worse not because I was traumatized. So what? I knew I didn't deserve to be treated badly, I knew I was suffering,it made me more anxious and depressed and it slowly led to panic attacks and then DP.So?? I realize that I was experiencing stress but after realizing all of this my dp is still here?? Knowing that you are traumatised and realizing it doesn't make the DP go away. And yes,I agree medication just mask the problem. I was on medication last time,my DP went away.,I stopped taking medication and 6 months later I am here again.But what's wrong with masking the problems when you have anxiety for life in your brain and there is no other explanation. The only thing that keeps me from taking medication again is because I gained weight from it,that's the one and only reason I am not taking it right now,but if my DP doesn't go away in the next month or two I will take it again.You can overanalyze,search for traumas and abuse and you will find it because EVERY person on the planet has emotional issues but I strongly believe that if you don't have underlying anxiety ( or brain imbalance) you won't get dp.


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## Funky Buddha (Apr 12, 2013)

googleeyes said:


> Kieran,
> I would ask myself, in what way is my school life causing dp/dr? It is absolutely something you could confront.
> I can't give you the steps you should take to overcome is because I don't have enough detail. Is your school life causing you anxiety or discomfort in some way?


Yeah it's causing a lot of discomfort, I haven't been to school for three years now because I left but I still think about all the negativity that I used to get from some of the people. It was a mixture of physical and verbal abuse.

The people where horrible because they were always smug and had to have a group of people around them in which only curtain people can be part of, then you get some that push you out and give you a bad reputation which lowered my self confidence down further.

At this stage, I felt mentally low and always got bullied by two or three kids, e.g. By stabbing pins in me when unexpected, saying hurtful words, stabbing pens in me, slapping me when I walked throught the door, pouring water on my chair in the middle of class etc... You get the point!

So, as you know I haven't really met many good people in my life, and I gave up hope for a while till I went to college and met some nice people and felt better after the two years. Only met two people though. Still, I feel quite anxious still around people and find it hard to know what to say in some situations. I don't know why but I think it might be because I'm thinking of the anxiety rather than what to say! But it gets quite awkward depending on the person.

My family and upbringing doesn't really show my personality either. I find my family rather irritating which causes a lot of stress because I just want to be away from them, not forever though. They cause trouble always thinking people are against them.

I don't understand it though, because when I was in year three everything was okay, then I kept getting told off all the time and hated life, I used to get into trouble all the time in year two as well. All I remember is being dragged out the classroom screaming, I know I wasn't so shy as I am now. I became shy when I moves school from year 3.

Do you think it could be because I watched a horror movie when I was little, it was Freddy Kruguer. I remember watching it all the way through when I was 6 and I couldn't sleep for a couple of years because I thought he was real lol


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## Haumea (Jul 11, 2009)

I'm highly skeptical that a single event can cause DP. Drug use can certainly trigger it, because drugs frequently take buried emotional or mental content and bring it into your conscious mind, and if you're not ready to deal with it, you can freak out and dissociate.

I think it is most productive for people in whom drug use triggered DP to look at their psychological health in the year or two prior to that event.

Some questions to ponder:

1) Why did I do drugs in the first place? "Everybody does it"/"Peer pressure" is a weak excuse, as it points to co-dependency/enmeshment issues.

2) Was I experiencing anxiety or depression of some sort?

3) How did I deal with my fears? Did I shrink from life to some "safe place" or did I face them head on?

Answering some of these questions may provide a clue as to how DP originated.

Remember that, ultimately, depersonalization simply means not feeling like a full-fledged person - for whatever reason. If you don't, you will experience the symptoms of unreality. Whatever being a full-fledged person is to you, if you aim at that target and do what it takes to reach it, you will - and DP will be gone.


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

you don't have to have been ABUSED, overtly, to get DP. sometimes we come from families or situations where there are negative character traits that had not been addressed. Some people have had issues with anxiety and dp without any real abuse, just maybe from a family that excercised super controlling behaviors, a lack of abundant love, perfectionism, a general sense of trying to be someone other than who you are...basically anything that is not absoulte love or that keeps a person from really being who they are, can lead a person down the wrong path until DP wakes them up.

but the thing is, there is something that needs to be assesed in your inventory. Are you harboring a secret that is eating you up inside? Do you have fears? How are your relationships? Is there something you've been avoiding in your life that you need to adderss/work on/fix etc? if you ask enough, you will get the answers.


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## Funky Buddha (Apr 12, 2013)

person3 said:


> you don't have to have been ABUSED, overtly, to get DP. sometimes we come from families or situations where there are negative character traits that had not been addressed. Some people have had issues with anxiety and dp without any real abuse, just maybe from a family that excercised super controlling behaviors, a lack of abundant love, perfectionism, a general sense of trying to be someone other than who you are...basically anything that is not absoulte love or that keeps a person from really being who they are, can lead a person down the wrong path until DP wakes them up.
> 
> but the thing is, there is something that needs to be assesed in your inventory. Are you harboring a secret that is eating you up inside? Do you have fears? How are your relationships? Is there something you've been avoiding in your life that you need to adderss/work on/fix etc? if you ask enough, you will get the answers.


Well, I do feel like there is something I'm not sure about inside but, I cannot put my finger on it exactually. Do I have fears, yes. I fear that I'm going to have to put up with my mum my whole life, and that if I get a girlfriend she won't like it or it might put her of altogether.

My mum had meningitis when she was younger, so she cannot really cope on her own and if I move out and anything happens to my nan then she won't be able to support herself so I am dreading what will happen. I don't want her to move in with me if I get a house, just like any other person if you were in my situation.

I also feel lonely because I never really knew my dad, and then one day a guy came along and I initually thought he was my dad because everything he does, says, etc are the things I would do. He has my personality but he won't do the test because he thinks he knows for sure he didn't sleep with my mum 18 years ago. That's really pissing me off, like he's just ditched me.

I feel my personality is restricted in my own house because of my nan, she's always so strict and holds my personality back, I'm never me because if I do show my true self she will just get pissed at me and I dread the worst will happen. New neighbours have just moved in, and I really like one of them but my nan causes trouble with them, she shouts al the time in the house bit recently I've become different, I don't know how but my mental status just feels different.

I have been going throught a lot of symptms because of my neighbours have moved in, for example. Now, I always stay in my bedroom and I have been noticing I have been observing my family a LOT more in the last week, just everything they do makes me feel stressed. Like, they shount up to me from down stares and I'm thinkng, " Why, just why cannot you come upstares and talk to me, you have legs!". I don't even like moving in my house anymore, because I feel like I'm being observed by my neighbours. I cannot even brush my teeth anymore or go downstares and I am getting really depressed lately.

I have been noticing these pains in the back of my head as well, like a sharp shooting pain with multiple tention headaches and I have been waking up earlier and loosing appatite.

To be honest, I wouldn't know how to address them.


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

this is a very difficult way to live.

you know in life, you can do anything you want. you can go be an artist or live in the mountains or meet new people and be happy all the time...but not while you are taking care of everyone else

you aren't keeping anyone alive or well. you're making yourself sick. but you're convinced you are magically keeping them together.

it's terrifying to get out of a dynamic like that...no one you're taking care of is going to let you grow so easily...but you need to address this...i think deep down inside you might want to do your own thing, and you feel stopped by all this caretaking stuff?

these people can probably totally recover from their stuff, but they can only do it if they let you go...


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## Funky Buddha (Apr 12, 2013)

person3 said:


> this is a very difficult way to live.
> 
> you know in life, you can do anything you want. you can go be an artist or live in the mountains or meet new people and be happy all the time...but not while you are taking care of everyone else
> 
> ...


My mum and my step-dad, the person who I think is my dad aren't together. I was talking about if anything happens to my nan, who my mum is living with. If I get a house it would mean I would have no choice but to move my mum in with me because she would have no where else to go to, because she wouldn't be able to support herself after my nan dies.

You are right, deep down I just want to get on with my own life rather than having to look after my mum. But it looks like I don't have a say in the matter. My mum has learning difficulties so she cannot cope without me. Trust lol

To give you an example, she cannot tell the time, she cannot use basic equipment e.g. oven, microwave etc and always relys on my nan to do it for her so she's fucked if anything happens to her, I feel so mean and wouldn't live with myself it I ditched her, but I want to live my own life...


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2013)

selig said:


> I've personally spoke to and helped many people on this site for the past seven years. After awhile you learn there's a fine line between a sugar-coated approach and enabling people. He simply speaks frankly. Some people, in their emotional state, automatically get extremely defensive because of the criticism. This doesn't mean he, or anyone here, should have to tailor make their attitude to serve peoples self esteem.
> 
> If you feel so strongly about him, then start your own extensive blog. He's helped a lot of people around here. The people who complain just can't seem to listen objectively without whining about how 'mean' he is. For an abusive person, he sure has a lot of people vouching for his methods.
> 
> I'm not going to spend anymore time in this thread justifying myself. We have differing views on it, and that's perfectly fine by me. If you want to discuss it any further you can PM me about it instead of the pissing contest this thread has turned into.


I'm not looking to get into a pissing contest with you Selig. I don't dislike you, but I don't agree with you on this. I don't think you can see it. You are still saying that anyone who objects to being abused (in this case by fearless) is "whining."

I already made this point but you went and did it again anyway: this is fundamental to abuse. Everyone suffers traumas in life, but this isn't usually a problem when that trauma is accepted and acknowledged by the people around them. Mental illness occurs when that person is traumatised and their natural justifiable reaction is shut down and denied. Then not only are they hurting, but that hurt has no acknowledgement, and no-where to go but inwards.

The hurt is bad enough, but the real cruelty is invalidating that persons natural reaction to it.

Those natural reactions are emotional truth, and because they are instinctive, usually true. Just because someone tells you you are "whining" does not mean you have not just been attacked. Much worse in fact, a sadist has put you in an emotional pincer, with no-where to turn.

The act is the reality of the situation, not the words said. Take away Harris Harington words -which he uses as a weapon, and anyone can look up for themselves btw -and look at what is actually being done.

So that's the kind of emotional abuse you are helping him with.

But that's ok, because you justify it with another abusive manoeuvre : the old, "for your own good"









You say he must be helping because of all the co-dependants he's ensnared try to please him with praise - looking for validation - and I'm sure he'll give you a pat on the head for being good boys. (Have some pride, man.)

But I'm speaking for the people who daren't object because they know they will be shot down if they do. I know I'm not sticking my neck out because I know a lot of people see it too, but they know they will be attacked if they voice it.

I'm not trying to do the same to you, but recovery requires us to be detectives, to look for the truth, to trust our own gut. I'm laying out some evidence, and people can decide for themselves. It's a note of caution.

This is not a game, but it is to him. See below:



Fearless said:


> just quoting this so I can save it for posterity.


(grandiosity)



Fearless said:


> You are geuinely burning yourself to ashes.


(Immaturity.)


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2013)

Ok, we can leave it at that.


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