# Possible Treatment Kappa Agonist?



## 2141zach (Sep 14, 2015)

I decided to make a new thread after suggesting this in another because it seems like it could be a possible cure and possibly spark a discussion that could help us to to get closer to solving this, or at least I can learn something new. My knowledge about how the brain works is very limited so please be patient maybe someone who knows more can add there knowledge to the discussion and help me to understand better if I am incorrect. Many people seem to agree that the Kappa opiate receptor is over active in DP and plays a big role in precipitating the disorder. And it looks like naltrexone has been very helpful in some cases at alleviating symptoms of DP. Suboxone has also been shown to do this as well. The both work I think by blocking the kappa receptor or by acting as a kappa antagonist. But for some the relief of symptoms is temporary which to me makes sense because the kappa will return once the drug leaves. What about using a kappa agonist instead. Using a kappa agonist instead of an antagonist would downregulate kappa activity possibly allieviating DP symptoms long term or even all together. What do you guys think is this completely crazy to think this would work? And if you think it might work what are your suggestions for kappa agonists? So far I know salvia is effective but it may be risky because of its psychedelic effects codiene might be another possible choice.


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## hennessy (Apr 2, 2008)

interesting. please let us know if you have found information.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2016)

I don't really know anything about this/even though ive riddled my brain with benzos I tend not to like to experiment in this way, but that doesn't mean other people can't! Best people to answer this would most likely be TDX or King Elliott, both are well versed in which drugs act upon which part of the brain, best of luck!


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## 2141zach (Sep 14, 2015)

Yes I talked to TDX about it on another thread. This was his response about using salvia which makes sense "This would also be only temporary and we don't know if it's really safe. There were people who got their DPD from Salvia.". However they were using large amounts of salvia to achieve recreational effects im not suggesting using it in that manner. Ive used it before at lower dosages with no real noticeable effects before getting DP so its something to consider. This is where I got the idea

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/26zqro
 also read senorrhythm's reply its very interesting.


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

The kappa-opioid-antagonist ALKS-5461 might become available this year. Because of this there is no need to take a risk with Salvia. If we had the year 2006, where ALKS-5461 was 10 years away, Salvia might have been a treatment of last-resort, but with ALKS-5461 there is really no place for Salvia in the treatment of DPD.


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## 2141zach (Sep 14, 2015)

Yes I will be trying the opiate antagonist first before I try using salvia as a treatment. I am also not recommending anyone else try salvia.


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## 2141zach (Sep 14, 2015)

*I talked to senorrhythm via Reddit pm asking him about using salvia while having DP this was his response:*

"I had written the following 2 years ago around when those experiences happened. In a nutshell, I drank Salvia tea for the first time (I had smoked it for years prior), and it was life-changing in a good way, and then about a week later, I tried it again, and the opposite happened. I think I abused it.

I have tried Salvia tea after this, and it has actually improved my condition, slightly. However, I now look to iboga as the healer for this, as it is a more well-rounded, thorough healing agent, which shares the kappa-opioid agonism that Salvia has.

~~~

I had been abstaining from orgasm as a spiritual practice/for mental and emotional health for a couple months prior. I continued abstaining. My consciousness was becoming incredibly lucid, defined, grounded, and powerful.

Then, in April 2013, I drank Salvia tea for the first time. The afterglow was nothing like I had ever experienced. I felt incredibly balanced, awake, in love with the universe, completely 100% sure of my place and purpose in the universe. My life was far from perfect, but I had a clear vision of the future and the past. The best way I can describe the afterglow is that everything seemed incredibly real. Reality was Here. I had fully arrived into reality.

4 days later, I felt ripe for a mushroom trip, so I did that with a friend. It was the right decision. Incredible lucidity, love, hope, etc. By far the best mushroom trip to date.

4 days after that, I was becoming restless, though still quite happy. I felt like I had tapped into a reality, an energy that was far above what everyone else was used to. The tension between my clarity and the mental habits of others was rising. So that night, I decided to address this uneasiness by asking the Salvia tea for guidance again.

I found myself not really into the experience. It was uneventful and not very insightful. Regardless, I drank the whole cup, wishing to put my consciousness in an innocent-newborn like state.

Then a friend came into my room and talked about some sentimental spiritual thoughts she was having. I tried to be compassionate, but I ended up attempting to dismantle her attachments, akin to the spirit of the Salvia. She left the room, mostly unfazed.

The main effects wore off, and across my hall (I live in a college dorm), my neighbor and his extremely depressed, angry friend were drinking themselves into a punk-music-worshipping frenzy, shouting and banging furniture around, singing at the top of their lungs, carrying a lot of negative energy. The friend, let's call him C, was out of control.

Feeling somewhat serene and able to handle the situation, I knocked on the door. It opened and I began politely asking them to keep it down for my sake. As I was speaking, C was yelling at me, insulting me in many ways. I continued talking, and tried to reason with him. Hah!

He grabbed my hand, stuck a beer in it, shoved me out the door, about 3 feet backwards. I didn't respond, and he slammed the door, further pushing my body out of the room. I think this happened twice. We met a few minutes later in the hall. He was still insulting me, and I deflected his insults, trying to appeal to his good nature, i.e. insulting his propensity for insulting. I walked away.

What happened next is subtle, I think. I tried to cope with it, reminding myself that they were being assholes and it had nothing to do with me personally. I went in my room, waited out their mindless "partying," sat in front of my computer and ate about a half a pound of smoked salmon bits. Most certainly stress-eating. I closed the computer and went to bed.

As I went to bed I marveled at the fact that I had homocidal thoughts. I hated C. He was a jerk, and he knew it, but proceeded to make other people's lives miserable. I wanted him dead. I fantasized about stabbing him in the chest. Then I reminded myself that of course, I would never ever do such a thing, and that he would eventually, perhaps lifetimes from now, see the light. And with that thought, I drifted to sleep.

I woke the next morning, and something was different. The tapestry on my wall hung, lifeless. It stared at me blankly with patterns that could have been any pattern, I didn't give a shit.

I didn't give a shit.

About anything. Anyone. I thought of my mother, and I knew all the facts about our history, but I didn't feel connected to her, or anyone. The bright mind, piercing gaze, and full heart I had up until then had completely vanished. I did not feel excited about anything. I felt mentally stupid and emotionally retarded. I felt like I had become just another human animal. I couldn't cry--I was panicking.

Reality was no longer real to me. I operated my body like a puppet. I went through the motions of school as best I could, but it was extremely difficult to concentrate. Partially because I was terrified that I had done some permanent damage to my consciousness.

A week later, I cried in front of a girl friend who cared(s) much about me. It was quite therapeutic, and grounded me a little, but my mind still felt vacant. Very very vacant.

Weeks passed, then months, and I've felt the same. I keep waiting for a relief moment where my consciousness and reality click back together, but it hasn't happened yet. Sometimes it maybe happens, but then it fades quickly. My face has changed; when I look in the mirror, my eyes look dull, my face blank and sagging. I am 24."

*This was using salvia in most likely a more recreational way instead of taking a smaller dose, at least that is my understanding. This is a possible negative outcome of using salvia. senorrhythm also wanted me to add this which I think is really interesting:*

"I would like to add (or perhaps reiterate) that I believe Salvia is a double-edged sword. It touches our core perception; it touches the place that gets harmed when we experience depersonalization. That means that it can heal it, but also cause it--depends on how it is used. Intentions are extremely important. If we use Salvia to escape, then escape we shall. If we use it to become more present, then we shall become more present. One must check themselves before they use it: "Why am I really using this? What do I want from it?"

I think Salvia is one thing that challenges the Western medical paradigm that substances are cures. You can't just give someone Salvia and expect them to be cured of DP, in the same way that you can't just throw someone MDMA and expect them to be healed of PTSD, or Ayahuasca and depression. Set and setting matter, a LOT. If you'll notice in my story, the Salvia trip that induced my DP featured quite negative personal interactions.

Conversely, the Salvia trip that brought much joy and grounding to my life was from a cup that I had a good friend "bless." It's not to say that the "blessing" itself necessarily causes the healing; rather, it is to say that whatever intention fueled the blessing, affected the trip as well.

Okay, I think I've said my piece. If you include this addendum, you can post it.

-SR"


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## 2141zach (Sep 14, 2015)

I think its also worth saying that part of healing from DP most likely involves processing emotional trauma and medicine alone is probably not the cure for DP


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## 2141zach (Sep 14, 2015)

thyRUY said:


> It BAFFLES me that apparently the THIRD most common mental condition in the world is still trying to be solved by a handful of people on a mental health forum. Seriously, humanity, what a fucking disgrace.


Yes its pretty frustrating but I think its getting more attention now just because so many people are realizing what they actually have. They were probably misdiagnosed in the past or didnt know.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2016)

also @thyRUY, it kinda is a terrible feeling when your own help, actually came here to figure out what im talking about. Talking about my counselor.


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## handshaker (Jan 5, 2016)

2141zach said:


> Yes I will be trying the opiate antagonist first before I try using salvia as a treatment. I am also not recommending anyone else try salvia.


Hi,

What about Tianeptine, this may have some place within this conversation?

"tianeptine is a full agonist at the mu and delta opioid receptors with negligible effect at the kappa opioid receptors"


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

> Tianeptine is the opposite of what we want. The ideal drug is one that only affects kappa receptors.


I tried Tianeptine and it did nothing for me. It even had no side-effects. It was like a placebo.


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## gunstor (Mar 19, 2013)

thy said:


> It BAFFLES me that apparently the THIRD most common mental condition in the world is still trying to be solved by a handful of people on a mental health forum. Seriously, humanity, what a fucking disgrace.


I suspect the major drug companies arent interested in investing millions into trying to produce a fix for Dp - as we have all seen the causes and symptoms are so varied in nature. I have worked for a major american drug company in the past and know full well the risks/time/money goes into getting a drug on the market. The odds are too stacked against finding that 'magic bullet' unfortunately.


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## mind.divided (Jul 2, 2015)

*Salvia activates the kappa opioid receptor = agonist = depersonalization*

*We need a kappa opioid receptor antagonist in order to get rid of depersonalization, like Naloxone.*


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## luctor et emergo (May 22, 2015)

King Elliott said:


> It's entirely reasonable in theory. This theory is harnessed in the use of low dose naltrexone all the time, where the aim is to cause upregulation/sensitisation of mu receptors.


You did try this yourself last year?

Does the same account for low dose Nalmefene, in theory?


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## luctor et emergo (May 22, 2015)

Aha!

Great to read.
Then LDNalmefene will definitely will come before my second attempt to reach 200mg/d.

So how many mg/d is considered a low dose Nalmefene?


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Where did king Elliott go? I have ordered a salvia plant and will be taking sub perceptual doses in order to down regulate kappa receptors. Did anyone try this in the end?


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

> Where did king Elliott go?


He was banned by the Verticalscope regime. You can find him in another depersonalization forum.



> I have ordered a salvia plant and will be taking sub perceptual doses in order to down regulate kappa receptors. Did anyone try this in the end?


I do not really think that it's a good idea to experiment with such a drug.


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## Phantasm (Jul 16, 2017)

TDX said:


> He was banned by the Verticalscope regime. You can find him in another depersonalization forum.
> 
> I do not really think that it's a good idea to experiment with such a drug.


"regime" lol :roll:



Broken said:


> Where did king Elliott go? I have ordered a salvia plant and will be taking sub perceptual doses in order to down regulate kappa receptors. Did anyone try this in the end?


I tried salvia once and it's effects are very depersonalizing. Honestly I wouldn't.


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## freezeup (Oct 1, 2016)

Broken said:


> Where did king Elliott go? I have ordered a salvia plant and will be taking sub perceptual doses in order to down regulate kappa receptors. Did anyone try this in the end?


two out of the four friends that did salvia with me when I was younger ended up getting depersonalized for a short time after taking it. I wouldn't recommend it. It didnt make me depersonalized, but then again back then I was a much different person mentally.


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Appreciate the advice but I will still go ahead.. quidding is meant to be more subtle an effect and I will not be smoking it.. the theory adds up, I expect it to make the DP worse temporarily as agonists do that. But the after effect will be down regulation of k receptors and an 'afterglow'. People use it for depression quite successfully. It will just be one use and if I don't like it or it doesn't help then I won't do it again. But the only thing I tried that helps is lions mane which has a milder k agonist in.. will report back once I have tried it


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## freezeup (Oct 1, 2016)

Broken said:


> Appreciate the advice but I will still go ahead.. quidding is meant to be more subtle an effect and I will not be smoking it.. the theory adds up, I expect it to make the DP worse temporarily as agonists do that. But the after effect will be down regulation of k receptors and an 'afterglow'. People use it for depression quite successfully. It will just be one use and if I don't like it or it doesn't help then I won't do it again. But the only thing I tried that helps is lions mane which has a milder k agonist in.. will report back once I have tried it


how well has lions mane worked? I've always been interested in trying that one.


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

It had some definite acute effect which seemed to fade.. however recently mood is better, concentration, and derealization with things looking far more vividly colourful... sometimes it is like 'wow that grass is really green!' or 'that traffic light is really red'... weird things, but I guess you have to be really present to appreciate them rather than the DP state where things are flat, foggy, faded and just drained of life in a sense. But this was also after psilocybin which supposedly upregulates nerve growth factors gene expression so.. a mixture of lions mane and psilocybin

But in all honesty it would be reductionist to pin this down to just lions mane. I am sure it is part of it. Magic mushrooms which have given me real appreciation and 'open heart' experiences, and from there it is almost as if the brain has an immediate example and is rewiring towards those positive emotions.. I had such empathy and compassion about really fucked up things in my life which was an important experience.

Also meditation has made a positive turn. More geared towards 'listening' to my symptoms as opposed to resisting and fighting them.

And finally I have a good therapist now and am talking more openly about past traumas than I ever have... 'mushrooms' were the last in line in terms of supplements that I tried, but oddly they really help.


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

I am rather intrigued by the salvia.. have just read quite a few accounts of people triggering DPD with it. However they were all SMOKING it and these were 5x-20x strength.. I mean people are idiots. I am unsurprised that it happened. Salvinorin A is known to be the most powerful naturally occurring hallucinogen and some people actually consider it a 'dissociative'. It is a shame these things are illegal because they are unregulated, people are uneducated and know nothing of how to respect or administer these things in a safe way...

I suspect salvia when smoked at these strengths causes a huge overload in kappa receptors that leaves these pathways overactivated, particularly in young developing minds.. not that you would, but if you wanted to give somebody DPD the best way to do it would be give them a huge bong of ridiculous strength salvia. Smoking causes a super quick peak anyway without these ridiculous 50x strength. Some people get away with it and love it, but it is very dangerous.

Having said that, medicinally taking it in sensible doses that are microdoses could prove beneficial. The slight activation with a slow peak caused by quidding with a VERY small amount of the kappa agonist will still downregulate the receptors. I suspect that pathways are actually overactivated with silly large doses that then leaves people with DP. It certainly is a dangerous drug. But even the mazatecs didnt smoke the stuff they chewed it.. that way it slowly gets into the system and doesnt have an aggressive spike that would do damage. Even the guy from VICE did 8 rolls each with 10 LARGE leaves, a huge amount but he had a fantastic trip (watch on youtube).

So, whilst it is dangerous at very large doses and smoked, I really will be taking a tiny dose to feel its effect. People swear it helps their depression this way. I definitely do not want to be tripping on this stuff


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