# Why does not God just stop our dp?



## yoyo

Why does not God stop our dp? What a great and fundamental question. Many of us have wondered why God does not do anything about it. The frustration caused by the fact that we do not always understand the way by which God operates lead us to believe that He simply does not exist or that He exists, but only as a crual and unfair God.

Let me suggest an explanation to that question. We suppose now that God exists. God is necessary, by its nature, perfect. It means that He has a perfect knowledge of natural law, which He masters. The law is subordinate to Him. God has the power to command the elements of the nature, and the elements "obey". However, God does not have the power to make a law or rule over a law that would create any kind of injustice. God is not allowed (I can not find a better word than allowed, but the term allow is not exactly the word that fits here) to do something that would make Him imperfect, something that would reduce Him to a lower state of glory than the state which He occupies. Why? God can not cease to be God. It is the reason why we should trust Him before anything else.

One thing that God could do is to stop our dp. He Has the power to do it. But He would not do it and will not do it. Why? As I said, this mesure would make Him imperfect, which is not " allowed" according to the law, which He masters and that same law that He must enforce in order to maintain justice. How does it come that such a mesure as curing all of us would make Him unjust? The answer is quite simple. We have all our free agency, the possibility to choose. Sometimes, we make right choices, but sometime we make wrong choices. We have control over our own choices, but we do not have control over others choices. If someone choose to do a wrong/bad thing, it could affect other people, which regularly happen. For instance, a person may choose to drive a car while he/she is drunk. He/she exposes others to danger. Sometimes, it leads that someone get hurt. The victim gets then a trial because of someone elses bad conduct (bad choice). God can not all the time and instantly repair damage caused by our bad choices. If He did that, we would loose our free agency, which God can not allow, because it is essential to happiness. However, God can help us through our trials and give the necessary help in order to overcome it. Trials are essential in order to get knowledge and experience. They are not fun, but fortunately essential. Pain is essential in order to understand what joy is. This is called the law of opposition.


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## wei ji

It sounds like the book of Job - no matter what god put him through he wouldn't give up his faith. And that we have free will. It's a great post! and I understand better now.

however, there's just one thing I don't understand. If we have free will and the ability to make our own judgments where's the "justice" in making bad one's that will only hurt other people? Isn't it unjust and cruel to allow someone to intentionally or unintentionally maim another simply because he has free will?

And isn't it taking the free will from another person when the victim has been attacked? It wasn't the victim's will to be attacked or was it?

And what is meant by justice?


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## yoyo

Wei ji wrote: Isn't it unjust and cruel to allow someone to intentionally or unintentionally maim another simply because he has free will?

Hi wei ji, you have raised good questions that deserve good answers. The question above is already answered in my topic. You just don?t seem to catch it. Let me help you here by being more clear.

The answer is no. God is not unjust by allowing people to intentionnally or unintentionnaly maim another simply because they have their free will. Why? Because God does not interfere in our free will. If God would interfere, then we would be forced to choose a path that we sometime do not want to choose. God does not force anyone to choose the right. He gives us the choice to choose beetween god and evil. Of course, He wants us to choose the right. Happiness is based on free will. Nobody can be happy by being forced to choose, no matter if the choice we intend to make is a good or bad one. I would be very unhappy if I had no free will, if God would control my life. I need to take decisions for my own life. It is the only way to develop and progress as a human being. God would never take it away from us. He loves us.

Next question? What is justice?

There is surely many definitions of justice. The definition that a choose is this one: That which conforms to the mind and will of God and is righteous and proper before him is just. Justice carries a connotation of righteousness, fairness, impartiality. It embraces the principle and practice of just dealing, of conformity to a course of perfect rectitude of adherence to a standard of complete integrity.


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## Martinelv

Genius. :roll:


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## CECIL

Perhaps God won't stop your DP because he wants you do find the strength to do it yourself. Sadly I think God is out for the count on this one - its up to you. And yes, you CAN do it, before you ask


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## wei ji

Which brings me to the next question - if we're choosing between right and wrong, how come is it that all religious activists* say that they are doing the right thing by god? -which means that all acts whether beneficial or in detriment to other's would be just...

is it [possible to do the "right" thing, as what is right one minute can be wrong the next.

And you say that God cannot interfere with our free will - but - hasn't he already done that simply by allowing a victim to be present in the situation - and taken the victim's free will away instead - which would be fate, then the person who did the act would not have acted off of free will but by fate instead. There's no way that he could have acted out of free will, if the other party is fated to be attacked - either that or it was their free will to be attacked... which is a very unjust god or god wishes harm on all of us - which is considered evil or simply that god doesn't care enough about his people to protect them as is the problem with samaleins - incorrect spelling

and is it possible to ever know what God wants?By what measure do we judge morality? For what is considered moral four hundred years ago is now considered to have been wrong and evil... (yet it's the same religion and the same doctrine)

if we don't know what god wants of us then we might as well have anarchy because justice won't rule in court rooms...

and moreover perhaps if we have free will then there is no such thing as right or wrong action - but just actions - which means god wants us to do what the heck we want..

* for want of a better expression


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## yoyo

Wei ji, you need to read my topic again. You do not seem to understand the point of it. I hope that I am not hurting your feelings, but I need to be clear here.

You said:

Which brings me to the next question - if we're choosing between right and wrong, how come is it that all religious activists* say that they are doing the right thing by god? -which means that all acts whether beneficial or in detriment to other's would be just...

Some religious activists try to legitimate some actions in the name of God. It does not make the actions more right (if they are wrong) just because it has been made in the name of God. In fact, God does not approve this manner of working. The kingdom of God on earth does not take part of politics or philosophy of men.

You wrote:
is it [possible to do the "right" thing, as what is right one minute can be wrong the next.

Of course it is possible. You seem to refere to the notion of relativism. There is nothing wrong with relativism. IT is a fact. We can not deny that what was wrong for 2000 years ago is accepted by the society today. The moral of men changes. It is not everlasting. But the moral of God is everlasting and eternal. His moral is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. To steal for 2000 years ago is, in Gods eyes, as wrong today as it was then. The fact that human kind has relatives values and morals does not change that fact. Relativism does not in any ways prove that God does not exist or that there is no absolute and everlastning moral, a moral that is above all relative morals. I do not see any contradictions here.

God does not interfere with our free will. I have already explained why. It implies that God will "tolerate or allow", not accept, that someone gets hurt. It is very easy to get frustrated and accuse God for all the pain in the world. God is not the cause of all pain, but MEN is. We have our free will, and God can not take it away. It is false to say that God is unfair and crual because He does not care enough to protect us. GOD PROTECTS US. He gives us instructions to follow i order to guide us and protect us from danger of all kind. These instructions are what we call the Holy scriptures, the word of God. These scriptures guidelines that are of great value. That leads me to answer your next question: and is it possible to ever know what God wants?

Yes, it is of course possible. As you well said: if we don't know what god wants of us then we might as well have anarchy because justice won't rule in court rooms... I totally agree here. It is the reason why God still speak to men through His prophets. I can now anticipate your next question: But how do we know if a prophet comes from God or is a false prophet? Lets us take that question, later if you want.

Well, Wei ji, you have great questions. I have been thinking a lot about those questions in my life ( I am though only 28) and I found great and logical answers only through faith in God. Faith is of course a very controversial subject.


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## wei ji

No you're not hurting my feelings Yoyo.

Thanks for the information


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## CECIL

wei ji said:


> Which brings me to the next question - if we're choosing between right and wrong, how come is it that all religious activists* say that they are doing the right thing by god?


Because those religious activists don't want to take responsibility for their own actions. Instead they must put themselves beyond scrutiny and blame by assigning their motives to a higher and infallible power.



wei ji said:


> And you say that God cannot interfere with our free will - but - hasn't he already done that simply by allowing a victim to be present in the situation - and taken the victim's free will away instead - which would be fate, then the person who did the act would not have acted off of free will but by fate instead


There are no victims, ever. Everything that happens happens by energetic agreements on levels not everyone understands. If something happens to you and you feel victimised then it is because you want the world to feel sorry for you. You want the world to have pity on you. This way you can hide from your own personal responsibility and sense of creational power. If you can blame someone else then you don't have to accept responsibility and look at yourself for the reason why. You don't have to change yourself so that it doesn't happen again.

You create your own life, your own reality. Everything that happens to you is of your own doing for your own experience and chance to learn and evolve. If you accept this responsibility then you begin to learn the reasons why your life has turned out how it has. You begin to unwind your expectations on the world and become more free, more empowered.


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## gizmo

Yes, we do have a free will, but one day God will make everything right- God is just.But whoever repents and turns to Him will be made righteous- and will not be punished, because He took the punishment we deserved.God is good.The devil is the one who does all these bad things to us.We allow him to destroy our lives , and a lot of the time it is because we allow him access into our lives and we don't even recognize it..the Bible says he goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. he comes not but to kill, steal, and destroy.Jesus came that we might have life, and that more abundantly.


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## The Wraith

I think that blaming God for Earthly ailments is the easiest coping mechanism that there is. I mean, if their is a God, I don't think that he or she would beset this sort of psychological plague on us. Unless this "God" was vein enough to cripple us on purpose to add another puppet to his congregation. Asking God to take it away would be like asking an innocent person to plead guilty to a crime they didn't commit just to put the comunitys mind at rest. Not to sound harsh or, faithless. I was just being hypothetical.

I don't think that dp is a weakness. I believe it is a frieghtening evolution of the psyche. I believe everything we have is a gift, a lot of us just have toys that we don't know how to play with properly yet. So, don't think of having dp/dr, or any type of ailment as a curse or something that God did. Just accept it, and do your best to overcome the obstacle and prove to yourself and everyone else how strong you are.


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## humptydumpty25

yeah ive wondered before, why wont he do anything? i cant tell how many times ive tried to pray-beg god to help me even just a little bit. but im sorry to say of course no response. i think god is great at healing certain individuals of certain physical ailments. but when its psychological , no. my lifetime experience has shown me that he is not going to do anything at all,. actually what i have wondered on a few occassions is moments of feeling very abandoned and let down by god. he sits back and just watches your life go down the tubes. well that is my case. i didnt get any warnings from anywhere that drugs and more drugs where not the answer and about the serious dangers and how they can destroy your life completely beyond hope. i was just 100% in the dark. but i was started on drugs when i was a child ........not so much blaming god but thinking what a pathetic life, what a pathetic fate. i had one parent but this parent was completely absent emotionally. she did nothing to protect me from the drugs and the doctors who were so anxious to push as much drugs into me as possible. so u can say i was on my own.

its sad when people get together and bring a child into the world and then totally abandon it and lead it into destructiveness. and what is stranger is that this was only the case for me. with my sister who is 3 years younger my mom was always scared to give her any drugs but at the same time dragging me to every psych she could find to put me on more and more drugs.

but let me tell u the truth, u want to know about god? in this world, these Drugs are god. at least that is how they are treated. i cant say anything in any way critical in relation to their drugs to anyone without being laughed at. they say u just want to blame everything on a bottle of harmless pills instead of taking personal responsibility. and the doctors look at me like ive got three heads and go on and on about the millions of people worldwide who these drugs are helping. i think the truth is that a lot of people THINK these drugs are helping them. but actually the majority are being seriously harmed by them although they dont realize it. and cynical as it may sound i do not believe that the doctors and the pharmaceutical cos will ever be held responsible. its easier and much more effacious to blame the victim.

but dont forget its illegal to try to commit suicide! we dont want to lose any taxpaying-drug takers !!!! its big business. money rules


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## CECIL

Humpty Dumpty fell off the wall. All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty together again.

What they didn't realise was that Humpty didn't need to be put together again - he didn't need to be fixed. Humpty had undergone a change and although he no longer conformed to the king's ideas of what an egg should be, he was now more free and more evolved 

(http://www.greylodge.org/occultreview/ glor_012/Undoing_Yourself_Eris.pdf - Link for above argument).



humptydumpty25 said:


> yeah ive wondered before, why wont he do anything? i cant tell how many times ive tried to pray-beg god to help me even just a little bit. but im sorry to say of course no response. i think god is great at healing certain individuals of certain physical ailments. but when its psychological , no. my lifetime experience has shown me that he is not going to do anything at all,. actually what i have wondered on a few occassions is moments of feeling very abandoned and let down by god. he sits back and just watches your life go down the tubes. well that is my case.


Again I put forward my argument that "God" is not helping you because he wants you to help yourself. You have all the knowledge and all the tools to work through and heal your own psychological issues. If God stepped in to save us every time we were hurt how much would we learn? On the other hand, if we do it ourselves, then like a child learning how to tie his own shoelaces we are more able to take care of ourselves. We become more empowered and more evolved.



> i didnt get any warnings from anywhere that drugs and more drugs where not the answer and about the serious dangers and how they can destroy your life completely beyond hope. i was just 100% in the dark. but i was started on drugs when i was a child ........not so much blaming god but thinking what a pathetic life, what a pathetic fate. i had one parent but this parent was completely absent emotionally. she did nothing to protect me from the drugs and the doctors who were so anxious to push as much drugs into me as possible. so u can say i was on my own.


That's a pretty nasty situation. My only advice is that your future doesn't have to be like your past. You do have the power to create a new life for yourself if you so choose.



> but let me tell u the truth, u want to know about god? in this world, these Drugs are god. at least that is how they are treated. i cant say anything in any way critical in relation to their drugs to anyone without being laughed at. they say u just want to blame everything on a bottle of harmless pills instead of taking personal responsibility. and the doctors look at me like ive got three heads and go on and on about the millions of people worldwide who these drugs are helping. i think the truth is that a lot of people THINK these drugs are helping them. but actually the majority are being seriously harmed by them although they dont realize it. and cynical as it may sound i do not believe that the doctors and the pharmaceutical cos will ever be held responsible. its easier and much more effacious to blame the victim.
> 
> but dont forget its illegal to try to commit suicide! we dont want to lose any taxpaying-drug takers !!!! its big business. money rules


Totally agree with this. Everyone is so quick to label themselves and other people "broken", "ill" or "abnormal" and then take the bandaid approach, which is to take medication for it. The aim of this medication IS NOT to make you better, its to bring you back within the range of normal for our society. Furthermore the effects only last as long as you take the drugs, unless you are simultaneously doing other work on the issues.

Anti-depressants, anti-psychotics and so on devalue the experience that you are having. If you are psychotic or if you are depressed there's a damn good reason for it, ALWAYS. By learning about those issues and working through them, not only do you heal those issues within yourself, you then learn how to use them as gifts rather than burdens. You become more self-empowered and a less controllable.

This is also a big reason they don't want to stop selling you drugs - no-one wants free-thinkers running around. Free-thinkers are dangerous. They think for themselves!! They challenge the status quo and if there's enough of them they change the way entire social/economical/governmental systems work.

At the moment in our world, everyone is so afraid of a change that is now just around the corner. They are all holding tightly to their ideals for fear that if they don't, some cataclysmic event will occur that will completely destroy all life on earth, or plunge us into anarchy. This can't be further from the truth - what we are going through now is merely a CHANGE, which WILL see old values crumbling. It doesn't mean the world will end, it just means that people are starting to see it a different way and that old ideologies (like religions so far, for example) are becoming obsolete.

/rant


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## Martinelv

I know I'm talking to the converted here, but in answer to the original question, has anyone ever considered that there might not be a god/s? And if that were the case then, shock horror, you would have to take responsibility for your own actions, health, etc.

In this day and age, it seems that fewer and fewer people take responsibilty for their actions. They 'surrender', to faith, or to whoever or they want to think is to blame for whatever. It's a shame.

Just a thought.


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## CECIL

Totally agree Martin, which is what I was saying in my posts. In the end it doesn't really matter if you believe in God or not, more if you are willing to stand up and take charge of your life and responsibility for your own actions and circumstances.

If you blame anything external for your situation, if you deny responsibility and refuse to accept your own part in your life then you will never heal.


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## freesong

I dont agree at all. Belief in God and His Son is the only way out ultimately of anything. Faith steps like A.A. can help until we realize the Truth as well as any other religion. With regard to other religions, Jesus made provision for those who have never heard the Truth. He said they would be judged by their conscience. Lots of false religions and gods out there. What is your false god, your it, that keeps you stuck. What is your solution to get the God shaped vacuum filled? Intelligence, sex, romance, cigarettes, drugs, money, fame, etc? Have any of these things made you happy? Maybe for a bit but ultimately how do you feel? An orgasm feels really good but much more fulfillment comes from loving Jesus. This was my worst habit. Sex!!!! I was addicted. I had opened my fathers pornography as a little girl and that was Pandoras box. My father had ultimately opened that door so he is paying even more. When we sin, we hurt ourselves. I went from pornography to sex outside of marriage to rebellion to marrying an unbeliever to divorce to another worse unbeliever to divorce again to acting like him. (lawless) to a bottom of hell called DP. I am coming out by praying, praising and feeding on His Word. I am coming out by faith and obedience=love. I also recommend A.A. or Al-anon steps but in this way........

God grant me the SERENITY to accept the things I cannot change; COURAGE to change the things I can; and WISDOM to know the difference. (Where does wisdom come from?)

Living one day at a time; enjoying one moment at a time; accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking , as He did, this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it:

Trusting that He will make all things right if I surrender to His will:

That I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with Him forever in the next. Amen

Another from Ireland:

God take and receive my liberty, my memory, my understanding and will, all that I am and have He has given me

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time Enjoying one moment at a time Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace Taking, as He did, this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it.

Trusting that He will make all things right if I surrender to his will That I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy in the next. Amen


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## freesong

YOU are powerless. Takes willingness, obedience, trust and love. Takes cooperation but not self-will. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not unto your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge Him and He shall make your steps straight. He is the teacher and healer and finisher of our faith. Try to create a star. :shock: With humility and love from the strongest willed person I know previously. freesong ( He works in mysterious ways) Trust and walk. God bless!!!!!


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## Martinelv

Yeah yeah yeah. God. Who? Which one? Why your one? Anyone seen him/them/her?

It doesn't matter how many times I hear someone preach about the 'lord', or Homeskooled going into incredible detail regarding an ancient text written by scared and oppressed people, many years after the death of a person who may or may not have even existed, and if he did, was without a shadow of a doubt, Schizophrenic, I still can't put into words the total futility of what you are all barking on about.

It's, it's, just beyond....I can't even think of the word to describe the incredible futility of it all.


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## Epiphany

I really wish I had even half the faith that some of you have in this God people keep talking about.

If "God" exists in the form that some of you describe, why on earth would you wonder why "he" doesn't stop your DP?

Why should "he"??? If "he" isn't willing/able to stop poverty, hunger, disease etc don't you feel slightly sheepish/selfish asking why "he" doesn't fix your problem? 
If I were "him" I would say..."here are your choices...deal with it yourself, or get in line behind the billions of others who have more pressing issues".

Sorry. I am trying to come to terms with exactly what it is I do believe in and just can't quite fathom the amount of faith others have in what appears like an incredibly inconsistent and flawed being / entity / force.


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## freesong

I think God is right there if you will just reach out and trust Him. Maybe ask Him to reveal Himself to you. It is all about Faith. It is impossible to find Him without it. It is a leap, like jumping off a cliff but what does it hurt to just believe that He really does exist???? Why are we all running from perfect love? HE is the only ONE who can fill the void in your life. I believe that DP is a gift to get us to focus on that fact. He loves us!!! He does not want us to suffer and knows what we need. Seek and ye shall find. This is a promise!!!!! Has anyone noticed that those who have started getting better were just continuing to push themselves and not let this condition have control over them.? They were walking through this with faith and that is how we were designed to work. God's grace and mercy is new every morning. We are not gods but we are made in His image. We are amazing creatures who, when we realize how much we are truly loved , can accomplish even greater works than He did. He said that. He is God and we are His children and as we trust and obey, we can move mountains. If you don't know love yet, then you have not met Jesus. May you find Him now!!!! In the name of Jesus I pray for all of us, freesong


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## bobbi

In a wired ironic way I think my DP/DR was a blessing from God. It was my way of coping with my pain as a child. I could of turned to drugs, drinking, sex, or overeating. That would of damaged me more. Now I am beginning to be ready to face my emotions and reality. But before I wasn't ready...DR/DP kept my sanity...sort of 
Because of DR/DP I never wanted to do drugs....I feel out of it all the time anyway..I thought WHY MAKE IT WORSE??? Yuck!
Bobbi


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## Sojourner

I heartily agree with freesong, yoyo, gizmo, and a few others. God *does* heal us and can heal us. But there is just one leetle, teeny-weeny, condition: we have to ask. He will help us in ways we cannot even imagine. He will give us *literally* the strength to do what we all know we must do -- each of us in our unique circumstances. This is part of the way that many people have come to know God, incidentally. They hit the bottom of the pit and call out, "Is there anybody up there?" And what do you know! There 
is Someone who has the power to get through our concrete skulls, our unwarranted notions of self-sufficiency, and our totally absurd rantings that we have no need of any "god."

Martin, please don't yell at me, but he's not out there, he's in your heart. You know him. I know you do. Stop running from him. The Hound of Heaven will not let you go.

Blessings to all,

Soj


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## Homeskooled

> Yeah yeah yeah. God. Who? Which one? Why your one? Anyone seen him/them/her?
> 
> It doesn't matter how many times I hear someone preach about the 'lord', or Homeskooled going into incredible detail regarding an ancient text written by scared and oppressed people, many years after the death of a person who may or may not have even existed, and if he did, was without a shadow of a doubt, Schizophrenic, I still can't put into words the total futility of what you are all barking on about.
> 
> It's, it's, just beyond....I can't even think of the word to describe the incredible futility of it all.


Wow. I cant beleive I missed this. Martin, dont make me come out there. And you think the religious are bad - how many unsubstantiated suppositions did you just make? Holy Canoley Batman - you just questioned the veracity of not one, but several ancient historical documents. Even if you think that the Josephus Flavius text was later edited, there is an unquestioned reference to Christ later on in the text that noone ever knows enough about for it to crop up in debates. Well, until now. One against the archaeological community. Then you diagnosed somebody who lived eons ago with a mental illness that He really doesnt fit - I cant find any proof of reality testing not being intact ie, hearing voices, seeing things. If he actually did not perform miracles, then perhaps you could label Christ as an extreme narcisist, but that _would_ be the pot calling the kettle black, now wouldnt it? Lastly, I just cant put into words the futility of what you are always barking on about. It's, it's just beyond...I cant even think of the word to describe the incredible futility of it all....



> Martin, please don't yell at me, but he's not out there, he's in your heart. You know him. I know you do. Stop running from him. The Hound of Heaven will not let you go.


I love it when people can combine good spirituality with a really great knowledge of writing. The Hound of Heaven....more power to you, Sojourner. And sorry, Martin, but I just had to prick at you in this post. Sometimes I just need a good debate. That being said, there are alot of people on here that care about you, and Sojourner's last paragraph says how we feel very elegantly...I know you dont think that inner peace is possible, but _give_ it a chance...

Peace
Homeskooled


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## terri*

How I wish I could surrender my soul;
Shed the clothes that become my skin;
See the liar that burns within my needing.
How I wish I'd chosen darkness from cold.
How I wish I had screamed out loud,
Instead I've found no meaning.

I guess it's time I run far, far away; find comfort in pain,
All pleasure's the same: it just keeps me from trouble.
Hides my true shape, like Dorian Gray.
I've heard what they say, but I'm not here for trouble.
It's more than just words: it's just tears and rain.

How I wish I could walk through the doors of my mind;
Hold memory close at hand,
Help me understand the years.
*How I wish I could choose between Heaven and Hell.
How I wish I would save my soul.
I'm so cold from fear.*

I guess it's time I run far, far away; find comfort in pain,
All pleasure's the same: it just keeps me from trouble.
Hides my true shape, like Dorian Gray.
I've heard what they say, but I'm not here for trouble.
Far, far away; find comfort in pain.
All pleasure's the same: it just keeps me from trouble.
It's more than just words: it's just tears and rain
(James Blunt)

*********************

This song has reminded me of you, Martin, since I first heard it.
Try not to work yourself into a fit because people care about you.
No, you don't need inner peace, but boy are you someone that could 
use it.

Oopsy, I think your head just did a 360. :shock:

:wink:

t*


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## JAG

There's no evidence of any god


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## CECIL

Bravo, what a well thought-out argument....replete with logical fallacies :roll:

Seriously, if you are going to argue about god from a logical point of view (stupid in the first place) at least make sure your logic is sound. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


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