# The biggest idiots in the world are...



## lostsoul (Aug 25, 2006)

doctors and psychiatrists!! I am begging and begging for some relaxation and/or sleeping pills till I get my own supply from an online pharmacy. They just don't care. They prefer to give huge amounts of those pills to people that are just depressed then to someone who is going through hell. I got some Xanax more then a week ago, they gave a stunning .25 mg.. wow! It was meant for 10 days, I finished it in 3 because .25 mg is useless!
I'm soooooo fed up with doctors and psychiatrists. Today again I tried to get some clonazepam. The doctor is too busy. The psychiatrist is having a holiday, the other one too. GREAT! They can relax, they can sleep! They don't f*cking care. I HATE this f*cked up society!

Pff... I'm getting more and more angry about everything every day. I'm soooo annoyed by everything... I just want 8 MG of clonazepam per day! But nooooooo.... they say 4 MG is enough to drown a horse. So they don't give anything at all instead.

I am sooo sooo much better with clonazepam. I can ENJOY life a bit. I can SLEEP a bit. If they would have just given the 8 MG of clonazepam two years ago as I asked I would have enjoyed the last 2 years. Me and my ex-girlfriend would still have been together. I wouldn't have lost my friends.

THANK YOU, YOU BRILLIANT DOCTORS!

P.S. Sorry for the negativity guys, I just have to bread out my frustrations now and then because I'm going insane, I can't take it anymore.


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## Guest (May 5, 2008)

I'm only on .50mg of Clonazepam and it's enough for me. I haven't needed to increase it yet either. We're all different... some of us need a high dose... and some of us don't.

If you wanna express your anger... go and set all their cars on fire


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## lostsoul (Aug 25, 2006)

Aah.. I thought you took 8 mg per day for two years and got down to 4 mg / day now, I read that somewhere, but I must have confused you with someone else..


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## lostsoul (Aug 25, 2006)

Ah, found it, it was a user called diacetyl who took 6 mg (not 8 mg) klonopin a day. I will get my shipment in 5 days, that is if it comes thru the customs


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## Guest (May 5, 2008)

Comfortably numb and Cloverstone are on High doses of it. PM them to talk about it.


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## lostsoul (Aug 25, 2006)

Thanks bro


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## Guest (May 5, 2008)

Yesh. My doc is trying to get me to come off it again... which is pee'in me off. I will try too after my hoilday, although after i've withdrawn, if I have any brain fog again... I won't be a happy puppy!


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## lostsoul (Aug 25, 2006)

I never saw an unhappy puppy in my life!! You owe me a pic then!


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## Guest (May 5, 2008)

I don't have time to PM, but I have been on 6mg a day for 21 years. Yes, first was given a smaller Rx in 1987 and IT DID NOTHING FOR ME -- didn't even calm my anxiety -- untill we got to 8mg. After about 6 weeks at 8mg I felt some relief for the first time in my life ... I was near 30. We pulled it back to 6mg. Below that, the DP/DR kept coming back.

I don't care if I'm on this the rest of my life. My life was not liveable before Klonopin. This doctor and others since have seen I NEED it. My level of anxiety is SO high, I recently had the old peoples' colonoscopy and endoscopy ... I have IBS as well related to anxiety for the love of God. I was terrified of dissociating from the "tranquilizer" ... the doctor was very careful to titrate it. I felt more "detached" during the procedure, but the doctor was STUNNED that I didn't fall asleep.

He didn't believe me until I told him everything that went on during the procedure. I had a tube stuck down my throat and was miserable and gagging away. He was singing "She's a Brick House", I heard him discussing things with the nurse, etc.

It is known that if you take an antipsychotic, say the old tranquilizers such as Haldol, the non-psychotic individual will fall over like the dead. However, schizophrenics can tolerate HUGE amounts and sometimes still be uncontrollable.

In MY case at least, I do NOT respond to medications much at all. No negative or positive side effects, it's WEIRD. But it shows that my metabolism/brain/whatever is DIFFERENT.

I have never taken MORE than my 6mg a day, EVER. I never abuse it. I take it 2mg in the a.m. and 4mg in p.m.

And yes, most psychiatrists are idiots. As noted, I have been to a neurologist for another concern, and the neurologist immediately knew what DP/DR was. My shrink a medical resident says there is little info on DP/DR save it can be a secondary symptom to a lot of things. No big focus on it. And this is at a high powered university teaching hospital.

To HELL with these people. I've never not been diagnosed properly, but the crazy theories and treatments I've been given over the years really tick me off.

OK, end of rant.
Cheers.
D


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## lostsoul (Aug 25, 2006)

I have to share this with you guys  I was sooooo desperate of getting some meds (I will get some in 5-6 days, but even that is too long for me) that I searched for days on the internet to find some meds in the netherlands. Today I found a dutch site that offers valium, very expensive but what the heck. You had a few different options to pay. One was by phone. So all I had to do to get valium was call a paid number for 15 minutes and I got an email an hour later saying the shipment is on its way  yeeeeeeh.. hopefully i will get some tomorrow.. although valium is not my first choice, better then nothing for the moment..


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## Ludovico (Feb 9, 2007)

Maybe medical doctors are hesitant to give you these drugs because they know of their powerful addictive potential and would prefer you try some other methods first.


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## Guest (May 6, 2008)

Ludovico said:


> Maybe medical doctors are hesitant to give you these drugs because they know of their powerful addictive potential and would prefer you try some other methods first.


Yes, this is absolutely true. Also, when I got Klonopin it had only been on the market as an anti-seizure medicatoin since 1975. I wish I'd gotten it then, at age 15. Might have changed my long term situation dramatically. I will never know.

One thing however. Before Klonopin (actually I'm on generic clonazepam and it works just the same, or I notice no difference). Also, I was 28 I think when given the Klonopin by a doctor from the ISSD-T (formerly at the time the ISSMPD). He said, and he was an expert in dissociation and truama at the time, "We've had some success with Klonopin" with people like you.

Meaning, I was, at the time, ready to die. I didn't want to die, I didn't even feel alive anyway. My career, everything was gone.

Before that time, I'd tried Valium, Xanax, Ativan, and something else. NONE OF THEM DID ANYTHING. NOTHING. One time I was so frustrated -- and I don't recommend this, I think I took about 10 pills of one of these (must have been low mg) to go to sleep and IT DID NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING.

There is a clear difference between the common benzos such as Valium (they are shorter acting and one might be tempted to take more when the effects wear off). Klonopin as I understand it, has a half-life of about 12 hours. If I miss a dose, or even like an idiot (ONCE) run out. I have gone several days with no change.

My profile fits severe GAD and chronic severe 24/7 DP/DR since age 4/5. It got worse as time went on. I was failing math in 3rd grade. SO I keep emphasizing this, that my situation is and was very serious. I am eligible for disability, but don't have it as I am married and have too much income. That's fair. I have good health insurance through my husband.

What I have noticed over the years on this board ... and Andy's before it ... are young people. More and more young people with drug induced DP/DR. I would say the average age on the other Board when I joined in 1999 might have been upper 20s, now we have very young people. There's more communication about this.

BUT, doctors are afraid of giving benzos (addictive drugs, yes) to young people. If I were 20 today with the exact same history, I don't know if it would be easy or difficult to get the meds I'm on. But I have also been very fortunate to see excellent doctors. (Even though a good many were idiots).

I also am concerned about mail-order things like Valium. There is something "different" about Klonopin. I've written this so many times. And my belief is that Valium would be more abused than Klonopin. As noted I have NEVER abused Klonopin.

I am also on Celexa 40mg for depression and 200 Lamictal for mood problems (a LOT better) and that helps the DP/DR a bit more. But I am far from cured.

Good luck,
D


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## Guest (May 6, 2008)

Forgot to say. I get emails to my website. Daily, STILL and it has been up there since 2000. I see more and more emails from young people -- age 13 where this came on suddenly for no reason, also age 48 where it came on suddenly when they were 45!

I don't understand this. But I do get so many emails. It is VERY sad.

People will say, and it makes my hair stand on end, "You are ME." "Your story is exactly the same as mine." "My symptoms are exactly like yours." And scarier, "Your mother and my mother could have been twins."

I do not understand these things.

Just remember we are all individuals. This can be debilitating or not so bad. Chronic or come and go. Some have great family/friend support, others do not.

We are all unique.

Love,
Really,
D - no one should have a mental illness/or perceptual disorder whatever you want to call this. You need your freakin' brain more than anything else.


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## Guest (May 6, 2008)

Last thing....

It does matter what doctor you see and what TYPE of doctor.

A Family Doctor or General Practitioner may feel uncomfortable prescribing any psychiatric medication unless you have a psychiatrist you see regularly.

Because I am part of "The University Health System" ... everyone knows everyone. So my GP, or my gastroenterologist could refill my existing medictations. Any of them. However, you should go to a psychiatrist, M.D. psychiatrist, not a psychologist, not an MA, MSW, etc. And go to several. But print out as much info as you can.

They will be insulted that you did research. If they can't take it .. and you are able to ... try to find another doctor. And I know it is NOT easy. Best for me recently is I don't go to any therapy at all. Haven't for quite a while. I see a new resident (they rotate -- psychiatric residents) and they last about 2 years and I get a new one. I TEACH THEM about DP/DR.

But I'm older. I have been through this my whole life. I really feel for the younger people here who have no clue what to do. I know how scared I was since a child.... until someone said, "I know what you have." But then the guy told me (at age 15)-- "DP is incurable." That was a real confidence booster.

God DAMN these people.
There are still some shrinks out there ... I'd like to kick them where the sun don't shine.


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## Guest (May 6, 2008)

You miss a bit Dreamer... lol (Joke).


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

are Klonopin and Clonzepam the same thing?


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## lostsoul (Aug 25, 2006)

Ludovico said:


> Maybe medical doctors are hesitant to give you these drugs because they know of their powerful addictive potential and would prefer you try some other methods first.


I know its highly addictive, but I prefer being addicted to something then being in this state...


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Dreamer* said:


> no one should have a mental illness/or perceptual disorder whatever you want to call this. You need your freakin' brain more than anything else.


...no one's arms should be blown off in war zones...still doesn't stop it! No parents should hate their children. No one should bully anyone else. But they do. It is the world! It's full of shit.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

edit


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## Guest (May 8, 2008)

Rozanne said:


> Dreamer* said:
> 
> 
> > no one should have a mental illness/or perceptual disorder whatever you want to call this. You need your freakin' brain more than anything else.
> ...


Dear Roz,

What I mean by this is ... well firstly to not compare the atrocities of life in general to this. But I know people who have had all sorts of illnesses for example, but they are not mentally ill. With a HEALTHY MIND they are able to cope with illnesses such as cancer (I know two people personally), a stroke of sorts -- too difficult to explain (cousin), severe injuries in an auto accident that left a friend without the use of one leg, etc. NONE of these people are mentally ill. They use/used their healthy minds to combat the physical illnesses.

Also, not every abused child gets anxiety, DP/DR. Some are extremely resilient. And there are a small number of individuals who get BPD having a perfectly normal childhood. My contention is (also seeing my mother waste away for 10 years from Alzheimer's, where any memory of her life disappeared) the MIND are one's "bootstraps" ... one can "pull one's self up by one's bootstraps" and rise from adversity generally when one does not have a million strange perceptual distortions.

You can't compare misery, but I imagine as I get older... well I know, I'm 49, things are going to go wrong with my body. I may get breast cancer, I may have a serious injury, I could develop Alzheimer's myself, have a stroke. I see my functioning, and fighting those challenges WHICH ARE INEVITABLE as being a billion times more difficult that if I were healthy.

I know mentally health people who are also physically ill. My first boyfriend, schizoprhenic, broke his back in a bike accident. Well, among other things he has no health insurance. He also has diabetes from his meds. Last I spoke with him he was losing it, again. He is close to my age. He has a wonderful attitude considering, but I felt when he phoned on New Year's Eve 2007 (very surprised to hear from him), he was saying goodbye. He has family, but he can't handle this anymore. He is tired. And he has worked like a demon. Very creative, and never able to achieve what I saw years ago in college.

Without your brain working, how can one truly have a normal life. I'm saying in the main. It is just my opinion. But loss of brain function or distortion thereof does not help when one is faced with any disaster, health, loss of a partner, loss of a friend. These things start happening more and more when you get older, and I'm not old.

One can have psychological problems (I have those) and work on those. The perceptual problems are what really take a bite out of my life.

All I'm saying.

I would never compare the general shit in the world ... suffering is suffering.

I wish you could understand what I'm saying.
And I try every day to "live a normal life" -- but it is far from normal. And I'm bone weary.

Take Care,
D


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## donlatt (May 8, 2008)

If this were any other forum, I'd say 'smoke some weed before bed'.


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## flipwilson (Aug 19, 2006)

i'm in no way judging ones decisions for meds, and i know everybody responds differently, but lostsoul if you havent exhausted other methods i would use this med as a last resort...but then again i know the hell first hand, and i understand the relief you seek.

KLONOPIN - (Clonazepam, Rivotril, Rivatri)

side effects and withdrawal symptoms

KLONOPIN is a highly potent anticonvulsant, anti-anxiety and muscle relaxant medication that is part of the benzodiazepine class of drugs. KLONOPIN also has a secondary effect on the neurotransmitter Serotonin. KLONOPIN is chemically related to hapten, a molecule that elicits an immune response when it has a protein carrier. One well-known example of hapten is urshiol, or the toxin found in poison ivy. *KLONOPIN also decreases the processes in the cerebral cortex - the portion of the brain that is responsible for perception, memory and will. *

*KLONOPIN, like all benzodiazepines, alters the sleep architecture by reducing the amounts of restorative Rapid Eye Movement (REM) sleep and increasing the non-restorative sleep patterns.* This can result in daytime drowsiness and poor cognitive function. KLONOPIN also depresses the tone of respiratory muscles, leading to sleep apnea.

A combination benzodiazepine and antiepileptic drug such as KLONOPIN should not be abruptly discontinued, but rather withdrawn through a slow and gradual dose reduction. Rapid or abrupt discontinuation can produce severe withdrawal symptoms and may even induce a seizure.

KLONOPIN depletes the body of essential vitamins, minerals, Melatonin and Glutathione (the body?s master antioxidant). Melatonin is critical for normal sleep patterns and Glutathione is essential for a healthy immune system and the detoxification process. Low Glutathione levels are associated with immune and liver dysfunction, cardiac disease and premature aging.

Benzodiazepines deplete approximately 50% of the Glutathione from the white blood cells within five hours, and these cells defend our body from infection and foreign material. Anticonvulsants also deplete Glutathione from the blood plasma. This may explain why prolonged use of benzodiazepines can severely compromise our health. Dr. Jimmy Gutman describes Glutathione as ?Food for the Immune System.? Replenishing the body of critical Glutathione levels not only improves immune function, but also allows the body to detoxify naturally.


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## Guest (May 9, 2008)

Be VERY CAREFUL with that valium......ALLWAYS listen to to the professionals [and yes I know alot of them are total pricks]
but they are cautious for *very good reason*.Self medicating is dangerous for all sorts of reasons,if you had a reaction to valium[lets hope you dont] but say you did ,noone would know what you were taking........you could have an accident and need surgury-noone would know that you were on benzos...or there could be something in your medical history that suggests that you shouldnt take it,and your doc would know that information.These drugs are called prescription drugs for good reason ,they are NOT sweets.I dont mean to scare monger here but Ive been down that road and it was hell,coming off valium when youre addicted is hell absolute hell and it makes DP DR much much worse afterwards and infact in me they caused severe derealization ,I only had dp untill the doc put me on tamazapam because I beged him to,soon as I stoped it I was so bad they said I was bordering on peupural psychosis-psychotic post natal depression...I know youre desperate and being desperate we take risks with our own health etc....but just please be careful wont you,at least inform your doctor that you are taking them.

Spirit.

I think the most stupid annoying people are people who have those plastic flowers in their houses...I hate it ...WHY WHY WHY.. :?


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## Guest (May 10, 2008)

Ah this is where I read this.

Agree. If you have any medical condition and are on any medication, if you wear glasses or contact lenses, etc. I advice getting what I wear all the time -- a Medic Alert bracelet. You can get a chain, a sportsband, etc. You buy the chain, and then it costs just $20 Yankee bucks a year to renew your membership.

You get an ID number and fill out all of your medical history. If you are in an accident, or cannot speak for yourself, paramedics/cops, etc. can phone a hotline that is answered by trained R.N.s (registered nurses).

This is in the US, but I am CERTAIN they have these everywhere. Also you can put your info on a flash drive and attach it to your keys. Get it in PC form. I tried to fill one out on my MAC and it wouldn't work. They'll have MAC compatible soon.

See: http://www.medicalert.org The site explains better what I'm talking about. I also have a sticker on my car window. The police notice that too. I have a card in my wallet! If you have a metal plate in your head or a pacemaker, DEFINITELY get one, LOL.

It is also tax deductible as a medical expense. It's worth it, it's your life. Also, you can put your doctor, emergency contacts... they keep everything online, and they answer 24/7.


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## Guest (May 10, 2008)

HAH, they have now gone international! Ya'll are set.
YOU MUST get this if you are on meds. Doesn't matter what they're for.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

> A combination benzodiazepine and antiepileptic drug such as KLONOPIN should not be abruptly discontinued, but rather withdrawn through a slow and gradual dose reduction. Rapid or abrupt discontinuation can produce severe withdrawal symptoms and may even induce a seizure.
> 
> KLONOPIN depletes the body of essential vitamins, minerals, Melatonin and Glutathione (the body?s master antioxidant). Melatonin is critical for normal sleep patterns and Glutathione is essential for a healthy immune system and the detoxification process. Low Glutathione levels are associated with immune and liver dysfunction, cardiac disease and premature aging.
> 
> Benzodiazepines deplete approximately 50% of the Glutathione from the white blood cells within five hours, and these cells defend our body from infection and foreign material. Anticonvulsants also deplete Glutathione from the blood plasma. This may explain why prolonged use of benzodiazepines can severely compromise our health. Dr. Jimmy Gutman describes Glutathione as ?Food for the Immune System.? Replenishing the body of critical Glutathione levels not only improves immune function, but also allows the body to detoxify naturally.


Benzodiazepines don't actually do any of this. They don't deplete your body of vtamins or minerals and they don't harm your immune system. In fact they are about the most benign drugs on your body that you can get. Ibuprofen and other OTC painkillers are actually much harder on your body then benzodiazepines.

A few benzos mainly chlordiazpoxide can cause liver damage. But clonazepam certainly doesn't and is one of the safest benzos on the market.

Clonazepam also is not a combination benzodiazepine and anti-convulsant. All benzos have some anti-convulsant activity but clonazepam has stronger anti-convulsant then most. It like all benzodiazepines should be withdrawan gradually to avoid withdrawal symptoms. But due to it's long half life it's generally easier to withdraw from then shorter acting benzos.

Ive been on clonazepam for a year and a half now and my health certainly has not suffered any.


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## PPPP (Nov 26, 2006)

Spirit said:


> I think the most stupid annoying people are people who have those plastic flowers in their houses...I hate it ...WHY WHY WHY.. :?


AMEN SISTER!


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

I have about 13 doctors I would like to kick in the nuts. :roll: :?  :mrgreen:


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