# Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment



## Martinelv

Yeah, but everything is bad for you. Everything. What's your point? We all die in the end.


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## Scattered

Interesting.



Martinelv said:


> Yeah, but everything is bad for you. Everything. What's your point? We all die in the end.


Perhaps, the point is to evaluate our lifestyles and where we are heading as a society/civilization before we destroy ourselves emotionally and physically. Or we could just go back to watching TV, getting drunk, and popping benzos.


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## Martinelv

Oh yeah? That's rich coming from you - oh Mr everything is sh*t. I'd like to hear your suggestions for a better society.


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## Scattered

I'm sensing some hostility. 

The suggestions are somewhat implied in the post if you had read it completely. Its our need for continual progress that creates a situation where the destruction of our environment becomes common place. This mindset of endless forward progress also create artificial environments that affect us emotionally. Endless reams of information and media further inhibit our ability of experiencing positive emotion.

It's really just a matter of taking stock of where we are, recognizing what we are doing to ourselves, and changing our views of technology as the saviour of society. Create renewable energy, and discourage indiscriminate consumption and waste. This will never happen and is not simple. Thats fine, nature will humble us through natural processes resulting from our destruction of the environment. And if nature is slow to react, then war may do the same.

This is a situation where we drastically change, or the consequences will be a situation where the earth picks up the slack and sends us back into the stone age where we will have to subscribe to different beliefs about sustainable living. Like I said, most people believe the way we live is good and perfectly fine and live in denial about the effect that modern society is having on the world and on us as emotional beings.


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## MrMortgage

Scattered said:


> I'm sensing some hostility.
> 
> The suggestions are somewhat implied in the post if you had read it completely. Its our need for continual progress that creates a situation where the destruction of our environment becomes common place. This mindset of endless forward progress also create artificial environments that affect us emotionally. Endless reams of information and media further inhibit our ability of experiencing positive emotion.
> 
> It's really just a matter of taking stock of where we are, recognizing what we are doing to ourselves, and changing our views of technology as the saviour of society. Create renewable energy, and discourage indiscriminate consumption and waste. This will never happen and is not simple. Thats fine, nature will humble us through natural processes resulting from our destruction of the environment. And if nature is slow to react, then war may do the same.
> 
> This is a situation where we drastically change, or the consequences will be a situation where the earth picks up the slack and sends us back into the stone age where we will have to subscribe to different beliefs about sustainable living. Like I said, most people believe the way we live is good and perfectly fine and live in denial about the effect that modern society is having on the world and on us as emotional beings.


So true scattered! ^^^^^^ I see the world as a spinning top, that spins at a wobble. The faster we turn, the worse the wobble becomes! The more obvious the wobble is!


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## Scattered

The world wobbles either because of its natural tendency to do so or because of our actions and the effect we have on it. There are some natural things we can't avoid, however, there are many unnatural variables that have been introduced at the advent of modern industrial society. So I personally don't view this as a doomsday scenario, I view it as a potential one if we don't change our lives to some extent. Like everything else, its a choice.


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## sleepingbeauty

very very interesting. but its not so scientific as it is common sense. the effects are everywhere. im very in tune/connected to this truth. its called 'waking up'. and once you truly awaken, you see how you have lived your life as an utter hippocrate. you have a dog that you hug and a child that you love but you eat cows and chicken and pigs without thought or remorse. you care about the environment, and make contributions to the world wildlife fund, yet you feel perfectly comfortable owning more than one Mcmansion that sit on endangered habitats. you are right the capitolist mindset is one of disconnect. disconnect from emotion, disconnect from reality. if its not right in my face then it cant be happening. see no evil speak no evil hear no evil. thats how we view wars, the food we eat, the way we treat each other, the way we treat ourselves. i cant see how this pint of hagendaz is clogging my arteries and shortening my life, so it must not be happening. its so silly and sad. how come we are so willing to turn away from the truth?? because the truth hurts?? yes!!!

but the truth will set you free. i feel better than ive ever felt. and thats the truth. my eyes are open now and i refuse to shut them anymore. i refuse to deny my impact on this world.


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## Martinelv

> I'm sensing some hostility


No F*****g hostility here mate ! :wink:

I just want you, once, just once, to make a positive suggestion about how, perhaps, just perhaps, we could make our lives a little more bareable, despite the world being a pile of crap, other than indulging your misey. I will pay you $5 if you succeed.


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## bright23

"Intelligence is the biggest cause/ source of destruction in this world.

[In fact Intelligence is the only cause of destruction in this world other than natural causes]

MENTAL WORK IS INJURIOUS TO THE MIND AND PLANET."

...truly hysterical, no seriously, this made my day. I agree, I would have been far better of born as a vegetable.

Perhaps a cabbage?

NO! PARSNIP!


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## sleepingbeauty

the point could have been made without the sarcasm. but i do see your point bright23 and its a good one.

i also disagree with that portion of this post. intelligence does not distroy. stupidity, the opposite of intelligence does that. sure you can argue that intelligent minds split the atom. but if those minds were truly thoughtful and intelligent they wouldnt have gone there in the first place. thats the state of the world at the moment. completely misguided and stupid. "im so smart because i just discovered a brand new way to kill things!"

not so smart if you ask me. :roll:


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## Scattered

And the problem is that people disagree about what is intelligent and what is not intelligent.

Objectively, it took alot of intelligence to create the atom bomb, the automobile, the computer, and all other features of modern society. It took a great deal of intelligence to then implement these ideas. Regardless of whether or not they have negative effects, they do require intelligence.

I disagree with the point that all intelligence leads to destruction. But there is a point to be made that many things which we consider to be the product of immense intelligence, lead to death, destruction, or ultimately living conditions that are not as positive as we may have first believed.


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## Martinelv

> or ultimately living conditions that are not as positive as we may have first believed.


Explain. Positive by who's standards?


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## sleepingbeauty

BRAVO!!

YES THAT IS EXACTLY THE TRUTH. EVERYTHING YOU SAY.

by thinking positive you are talking about turning a blind eye to truth. turning off reality because it is painful and makes us confront our own hipocracy. hipocracy MUST END. complacency MUST END. greed and envy MUST END. dissociation MUST END! there is no alternative. if we continue on this path there will be nothing left to give our children. we have become so arrogant that we have dismissed the future completely. there is no future. not for us or for the one who gives us life, The Gaia. she will have to cleanse and start over from scratch. call it the end times, but thats where we are headed and it has nothing to do with a spiritual realm. its all about the REAL. its called our REALITY. its great to think positive when you are sitting in a pit filled with sh!t but that does nothing to improve your situation. youre still sitting in the pit of sh!t. it takes confrontation of the situation, accepting that you are indeed in a predicament, accepting your own personal responsibility, and making the nescisary effort to fix the situation. its called personal responsibility. no one wants to take responsibility for their actions anymore. they want to pass the buck. pretend that their impact doesnt count somehow. thats bullsh!t. your impact is HUGE. i will post some real statistics that explain further about this personal impact another time cause its way past my bedtime.

great post shushil. ROCK ON. 8)


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## widescreened

very true.this happened in pre industrial society on the easter island in the pacific.there,rival tribes ended up cutting down all the trees in order to transport stone dieties to the beaches in a form of anscestor worship.it turned into a massive competition that went out of control.rivalry grew between the clans to see who could build the most monuments.as a result,all the trees were cut down,the soil washed away,and the descendents either starved or drowned trying to escape the island.this was a mere 300 years ago.it wasnt industrial society,but it shows how harmful the human ego can be


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## Martinelv

To sum up - 'true' intelligence is self-defeating. We can't help ourselves.

The percieved 'curse' of industrialised society is nonsense. Reactionary cultural rubbish. Our 'curse' began as soon as we crawled out of the swap and started becoming self-aware.

People in Afria and religious communities don't cause harm to our planet. Rubbish. They would if they had the chance or inclination. Don't fool yourself into thinking that primitive people are to be admired because they don't pump CO2 into the atmosphere.

We are all in the same boat. As long as we have a brain, we are all as culpable as each other.


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## Scattered

While I admire your nihilism, I have to disagree...somewhat. Yes, less technologically advanced cultures would probably be as inclined to destroy the world if they were in a position to do so. The point is that they aren't. Their life style, and it all depends on what culture we're talking about, is generally more in harmony with their physical environment. They depend on their immediate surroundings for survival and as such do minimal damage to it. This is more a question of practicality rather than motivation. They are to be looked at as a model not because they are supreme examples of morality, but because the constraints of their lifestyle FORCE them to do less damage. And thats fine.

The end result we want is not one of transcending basic human motivations and inclinations, but a lifetsyle that suppresses our inner need to self-destruct.


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## Martinelv

> They are to be looked at as a model not because they are supreme examples of morality, but because the constraints of their lifestyle FORCE them to do less damage.


You've hit the nail on the head. "Constraints". If we plucked them from their forest huts and gave them a generation or two to purge themselves of their 'primitive' ways, they would be exactly the same as you and me.

I guess your suggestion is that we, like Tyler in fight club, should revert to an more simple age, a more simple time, when we respect each other and the resources available to us. I'm not as positive about this as you are. Our progress as a species is unstoppable...and sooner or later we will reap the 'terrible' benefits. And then, perhaps, we shall have to revert to living of the earth. But I doubt, really doubt if that will ever happen. Consumerism, capitalism, the weakinging of morality, the ceaseless motivation for 'more, relentless greed...all are unique to our species...and it's increasing at a shocking speed.

Look around you. Depression or not - we are really quite evil creatures. Even the smallest child knows we are the most dangerous animal on the planet. We're even quite nasty to look at - skinny, defenceless hairless apes. We torture animals, we treat oter species, at best, as curios, we rape the planet without a seconds thought, and justify this by our feelings of love and the fact that we build (concreting over a nice field or park) nice buildings. Art, music, ocassional acts of selfless kindness, yes - lovely. But who enjoys them apart from us.....nobody, nothing. We are the epitome of selfishness, and we can't help it. Nothing we can do about it. That's why we are doomed.

But I, as a selfish man, don't give a damn.


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## Homeskooled

Honestly, I think the world is at a turning point. Look at what you've written, Sushil Yadav. Would someone have written that during the Industrial Revolution of Great Britain? I think not. Would they have written it in 1940's America? Fast forward. The outcry is so great around the world to clean up our mistakes where we can and prevent them in the future regarding our environment, that who knows? You may find that your pessimism is feeding the very mindset you hate. As self-aware creatures, we have an ability that no other animal has, although you may lump us in as the most harmful of all. We have the ability to analyze and change our behavior. And the ability to do this *only* comes with intelligence. To be very specific, with a well-developed pre-frontal cortex, which is something that no other species has. People without a well-developed one tend to be thoughtless. The more one thinks, the more you weigh things other people say, such as your post.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Scattered

I'm not some idealist that thinks we are just going to stop to live the way we are living. There's far too much money and power involved in the scheme of things for society as a whole to just jump ship and revert back to primitive tribes. This is going to happen as a result of rampant greedd that leads to the destruction of our current way of life and FORCES us to live more sustainably. Once that happens, I think we have a chance. But as the system is now, I don't believe there is much chance for reform.


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## Martinelv

I agree with both of you (note the time and date!), but I don't share your optimism Homeskooled, and I'm wary of saying that we are at a 'turning point'. People have said that throughout the ages. I think the only thing that would unite us as a people is something terribly dramatic like Nuclear war, or (don't laugh) the discovery of alien life. Homey - we've had these marvelous brains for milleniums...and it's just getting worse...

But I do agree somewhat with Scattered has to say. Unless there is some miraculous change of attitude (for a start - seperating church and state would be a good thing), and everyone stop being so relentlessly selfish etc, but I don't think we are capable of that. Our very nature and our short life span where we try and cram as much experience into as possible precludes this. It's not really our fault, we can't help ourselves, we just do without regard (except for tree-huggers and the small minority of environmentalists) for anything else. Much like cancer.

But, I repeat, I don't care. I am a cancer cell amoung billions of other cancer cells. I'll just get carried along with the ride.


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## Homeskooled

Well, maybe I _am _too optimistic, but you know what? I really do think that humanity learns from its mistakes. Change, for better and worse in our species, happens slowly over time. My thinking on these subjects usually goes over a span of hundreds of years, maybe 2 or 3 thousand. But really, we've been around a LOT longer than that - how long we dont yet know. We've changed a great deal, and society has changed a great deal. We really DO solve more international problems with diplomacy now than we used. We really ARE more aware of the global impact of our actions, because for the first time in history, we are globally connected. Unless I had access to the State Department or a News Wire Service, there was no way in heck I could know what is happening over in China on a daily basis in 1990. But in 1995, ala the Internet, I can talk to Japanese fisherman on a daily basis or Alaskan loggers. When looking back on history and comparing it to the present day, many historians and anthropologists make the mistake of comparing our country's present day mistakes and the US's eventual fall to previous empires. Also when they speak of the disintegration of the United Kingdom's economy, status, etc....Yes, Rome fell, never to rise again. But the rise of other countries after that were largely based on their exploration of new land, aquiring of it, building of an empire. The world was finally completely mapped out only this century. Where do we go from here? Everyone and everywhere is accounted for, discovered, and populations are tabulated and indexed. How far now can a single country rise or fall? Ultimately, we are now ALL interdependent on each country's rise and fall. Whether we like it or not, we are a global community, able to affect global change and global committments precisely because we are intelligent enough to map out the world, to think up telecommunications, or even have the scientific know-how to measure our own pollution. We are at a point in history where all bets are off, because what we have achieved has never been acheived before. Yes, you can find some parallels in the rise and fall of the British empire, the Spanish Empire, the Roman empire, or the Greeks before them. But like it or not, we are swimming in completely new historical waters. I think that we are far better off now than we were 2000 years ago, even from an ethical standpoint. If you gave the Romans factories or nuclear weapons, just how responsible do you think they'd be? Would they have an EPA? A UN? Yeah right. No, we've come along way. I'm just trying to say that where we go from here is anyone's guess. My guess is that humanity will continue to slowly improve itself.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Martinelv

> I really do think that humanity learns from its mistakes


I understand what you are saying, but Romans didn't have the Nuclear bomb. They had the equivalent for their time, slings and arrows, rape and murder without the risk of retribution. I don't think we've learned by out mistakes at all. I don't neccessarily think we are getting 'worse', we've just found more ingenious ways to kill ourselves and everything around us.

How can we have learnt by our mistakes if we've populated the world to the brink of extinction, succeded in polluting the atmosphere, developed ways of destroying the fish stocks, destroying our habit and indigenous cultures...etc etc, all in the blink of the chronological eye. A trade agreement between two previously hostile countries is all well and good, but what good is that? More produce, more slave labour, more alienation of other countries. The point is that the more 'intelligent' we become, the more damage we inflict. The mistakes we have made - how many of them, if any, have we even begun to rectify? And let's just say that one day we do decide to sort this mess out, how much longer do you think we've got before we all dissolve into a hole of our own making?


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## Homeskooled

> understand what you are saying, but Romans didn't have the Nuclear bomb. They had the equivalent for their time, slings and arrows, rape and murder without the risk of retribution.


My point exactly. Lets focus on the phrase you used, "without the risk of retribution". They certainly didn't have the nuclear bomb, and what they did use, they used *because they had no fear of retribution*. If they had had nuclear weapons, they would have decimated their foes with it, without conscience. If Russia had been their offending foe, it would no longer exist. They would not have formed a North Atlantic Treaty Organization to protect other countries (not within their empire) who were without nuclear weapons.

Population is precisely one of the things we share in common with the animal kingdom. Its governed solely by instinct and the drive to keep the race alive. In this way, animals too are cancerous. Things that dwindle their populations are things which dwindle ours - disease, infighting, aggressors.



> how much longer do you think we've got before we all dissolve into a hole of our own making?


Quite a long time, provided we dont instantaneously annihilate ourselves with a superweapon (nuclear, neutrino, etc....). Like most procrastinators, its only when a deadline approaches with dire consequences that we will try our hardest, use the most of our talents, and do the most good in the most efficient way. But until that time comes, we also get the friendly reminders that procrastinators receive, and the pangs of conscience which make us heed those warnings.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Scattered

As an interconnected society this simply means that instead of one country destroying itself while the rest survives, one country destroys itself and the rest fall as well. We have agreed to be more civilized because it benefits us. Rape and pillage is a very now type of thing. Its here today and gone tomorrow; when some other conqueror tries to throw you off your pedestal. We're far too advanced for childish things like this anymore. We prefer to milk people dry over a long period of time. Don't treat the workers like slaves, causing them to die. Pump them full of medicine so they can toil their entire lifetime and ensure the cycle of greed and hypocrisy continues.


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## Homeskooled

Dear Scattered, 


> As an interconnected society this simply means that instead of one country destroying itself while the rest survives, one country destroys itself and the rest fall as well.


Yes, that is mostly true. It means that it is in everyone's best interest to help his neighbor.



> We have agreed to be more civilized because it benefits us.


 What's wrong with that? Thats the whole point of most of my theological debates - what is good for us and what is right are really the same thing. Evil is inefficient, destructive, unfullfilling, and ultimately, unsustainable.



> Don't treat the workers like slaves, causing them to die. Pump them full of medicine so they can toil their entire lifetime and ensure the cycle of greed and hypocrisy continues.


My, you make Martin's cynisim look like a Christmas morning. Most companies are looking for ways to _fire_ employees who have poor health records. They find that their health insurance premiums are lower and the workers they have are more productive. Ethical? No. But I think most workers _wish_ that their company would pump them full of medicines so that they could "toil their entire lifetime". Half the workers I know still dont get health insurance. And if you want to get technical, people who retire die sooner than those who do not "toil their entire lifetime". Staying active and working does alot of good psychologically and physically for senior citizens, or even those of us who are young. There are those who no longer can work from debilitating diseases in their later years, but disease does not have to be the norm for aging. I met a man going door to door with my campaign who almost knew as much medicine as I do. He was taking antioxidants, exercising, and making his doctor give him hormone replacements. I thought he was about 52-53. He was 86. And his wife was alot younger than him. I hope I can take care of myself that well when I'm his age, but it gives me, and even you _Scattered_, a reason to remain optimistic.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Scattered

I think you're taking my statement, which was poorly worded, a bit too literally. I'm simply saying that the difference between then and now is one of organization. We live in an organized society that is a vast improvement over anything that we may have seen in the past. However, just because society itself advances does not mean that basic intentions advance. The intentions are the same but the way these basic motivations are gone about is much different. Instead of mass chaos, we have relative peace and order. The advantage that this affords is one where greed and corruption occur behind the scenes while there is a relatively content populous thats willing to put up with it for the security that a stable society provides. This isn't a virtue. This is that same rape and pillage taken down and notch but extended into the indefinate future whereas in the past kingdoms were made and lost over a relatively short time.

Its like saying, sure we wont f*ck you over right here and now, but we'll institutionalize a system that does the same thing over a long period of time, and we'll smile politely as we do so.

This doesn't really have to be cynicism. Its just a way of seeing at the world that doesn't look towards the best intentions of those who are involved in decision-making, leadership, and business. There are still real consequences of this behavior. To say, "Oh but look how far we've come" is a nice way of glossing over facets of our society that continue to destroy this planet and take advantage of the people on the lower end of the totem pole.


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## Homeskooled

But it could also be a way of pointing out that improvements _do_ occur, eventhough they take a long time to be accepted by society, and that with hard work, those "facets" of society can be changed too.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## bright23

Yes. Destroy your computer.

Oh...er...that would mean (pause)...


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## sleepingbeauty

i think youre missing the point bright 23. you think sushil is saying to turn back the clock. of course thats impossible. sushil is talking about learning from the past and building a better future. computers will be a part of that future yes, but better, more energy efficient, and without all the unnessisary bells and whistles. living simply doesnt mean living in a cave. we have progressed so much since living in caves yes, but i think along the way we lost the plot. we got greedy and forgot about everything else. we forgot how to MALAMA (take care, love, protect) our exisitance. that being our air, earth, water, spirit. we started to care about the pointless and the unnessisary. i dont see computers as pointless and unnessisary, at least, not at this time in history, because we need them to get these messages out. the message that sushil is sharing must be heard. im so grateful for the internet and the ability we now have to communicate globally.


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## Guest

I didn't bother to read the entire thread, so excuse me if my thoughts are unoriginal.

Anyway, I feel industrialized society and western society in general strips the individual of their individuality in pursuit of "progress". The individual is always sacraficed for the "good" of the whole. Those who don't conform are often outcast and shunned for their "different" views towards the world. At the same time, there exists extreme selfishness and greed. Even though this does involve the economic improvement of individuals, they actually lose their individuality by seeking such "common" dreams. Sometimes I lose faith in society and humans in general.

Sorry for my ranting, I don't know exactly where I'm going here.


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## Scattered

Preindustrial society does the same exact thing. It strips people of their individuality because the contributions of every member is recognized as being necessary for the survival of the whole. A person isn't really recognized as an individual, he is identified moreso as a member of a particular family group or kinship system. Conformity is necessary for survival.

By contrast industrial society is far more individualized. A person is expected to support himself and rise through the ranks. Old methods of reciprocity are rarely recognized and as a result there is far less focus on community. There's much more competition in this system, a person is not only allowed but encouraged to step on those below him in order to rise to the top.

I think there's an inherent sort of confusion when we speak of conformity and individuality. I think industrial society is dehumanizing and this is the main problem. Conformity isn't always a bad thing and individuality isn't always a good thing.


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## CECIL

Older societies viewed the group or tribe as more important than the individual. The individual's needs would be sacrificed for the good of the tribe.

Then we started rebelling against this idea and the individual became more important than the tribe or group.

More recently we've adopted both ideas. That the individual is more important than the group AND the group is more important than the individual. We find ourselves in a very sticky situation and its led to a lot of letigious BS, a lot of corruption and general not a pleasant place to live. For example the CO of a massive company may want to persue a new career path but they are not allowed to just let the company die. Nothing is allowed to end in our society - companies, people's live etc.

The next step is to mediate this divide. The individual is just as important as the group. This means that if the individual's desires are in line with their group's then everything runs smoothly. If not then the individual can leave with no shame. If this means closing down a company and pissing off shareholders then so be it.

And to answer the question of "What can we do to better our world?" I'd like to quite the late, great, Reverend Bill Hicks  :

"It all comes down to a choice between love and fear. In the eyes of fear we should bolt our doors and carry weapons. In the eyes of love we should take the entire arms budget for the U.S. - trillions of dollars a year -and use it to feed, cloth and educate the world - not one person excluded - which it would many times over".


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## ledganteast

sushil yadav has a profound way of simplifying huge ideas,as someone with a modern mindset [short attention span] I commend that.

I agree with most of what he says,one only has to look at the effects of colonialism in parts of Africa/other countries etc to see the damage of industrial society.

Perfect example: My grandfather [who was white] lived in an african village & was the first to introduce goods/services [corruption] to this area.

Suddenly people who *had survived thousands of years *without candy,sugar,flour etc became dependant on these things and he created a *livelihood from their dependance*.

He was also paid to take local men to the mines and the women became domestic workers.You can see him as the perfect * metaphor *for the advance of "western industrial society"

Suddenly the people there [the amapondo] had completely different *values* ,it is not about *constraint* or inaccess to 'progress' as an earlier poster said but that primitive people have always had completely different and saner *values* than ours.

I think the only thing that has really really changed in the last 200-300 years to us as humans has been*what we value*,industrial society has altered our* values*.

Where once the amapondo lived off the land and had a rich tradition and lifestyle that *sustained them physically and spiritually *for *thousands of years * [as we did] in a flash it was destroyed by a switch to our new *values*.

They are now either crimimals hijacking luxury cars,murdering people,in severe states of poverty,ridden with aids, or in university aspiring to have a mansion in gauteng and to aquire as much crap as possible with a strong enough security system to sustain it.

We like them came to value things like science,intelligence,material goods,money,power,perfection,speed,progress so the actions of our society reflect that.

I think our values will eventually be replaced by new ones depending on how bad things turn out.


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## ledganteast

Homeskooled said:


> We have the ability to analyze and change our behavior. And the ability to do this *only* comes with intelligence. The more one thinks, the more you weigh things other people say, such as your post.


It is due to *wisdom* not intelligence that we are able to learn from our mistakes and change our behaviours,unfortunately our society worships *intelligence and not wisdom*.

I also agree completely with the statement that 
*Intelligence is the biggest cause /source of destruction in this world. *

sushil yadav's whole essay could be summed up in the quote:

*"if there is any peace it will come through being not knowing"*


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## ledganteast

sushil_yadav said:


> *Lifestyle of Mass Destruction. *
> 
> Development and Sustainability are opposites.
> Development and Sustainability are contradictory.
> 
> Sustainable Living is associated with consuming less ? being satisfied with a simple and frugal life.
> Development is associated with never ending desires ? always wanting more.
> 
> The term Sustainable Development is like the terms
> 
> Stationary Walk.
> Silent Talk.
> Wakeful Sleep.
> Dark Sun
> Gentle Torture.
> Dry Rain.
> Peaceful War.
> 
> sushil_yadav


What Genuis!
having never cared nor paid attention to enviromental issues this has opened my eyes.


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## Neko

I have to say, on certain points I agree with a lot of what some of you are saying.

Our society today has many areas which are self-harmful. Materialism, self-obsession, disregard for the blessing we obtain through nature, etc.

However, I'm kind of confused by the viewpoint that our technology and scientific development is harmful to humanity. You seem to be glossing over a lot of humanity's history. Suffering and destruction are NOT unique occurances for this recent period of time. People have been f**king things over for their own benefits since the beginning of recorded history. Virtually every civilization has brutally murdered or conquered some other people or chopped down some forest or misused some river for their own wants.

Now that we have devised and utilized technology to create an industrialized society, we're just f**king things over at a faster pace. Some people have always had a priority to make themselves wealthy just as many people put subsistance as their priority. It's just that there is way more garbage to collect. These are deep desires of humans that you can never get rid of--part of our [sinful] natures.

But you know what? We're also using that same aforementioned technology to reverse some of these effects and to benefit humanity as a whole.

Years ago, life expectancy was down in many places to the fourties. People were dying of bacterial/viral illnesses as well as chronic ones. Sanitation was terrible. Poor diet and lack of medicine took a great toll and undoubtedly caused great human suffering. Today? Life expectancies in the sixties to eighties and above.

I don't know about you, but I'm pretty happy about the fact that I'm able to survive in spite of my diabetes, which I would be dead from if I were living with a rustic, indiginous tribe somewhere without the industrial society keeping me alive.

Am I selfish for wanting to live? Maybe. But I'm fairly sure the rest of humanity wants to live, too.

Another thing we have that we didn't in the dawn of the industrial era is awareness. We're waking up to the fact that our rivers are polluted, that our animals need protecting, that there are people suffering in other places. The fact the we know and realize this is a very important first step to restoring nature. Compared to the technology of even fifty years ago, ours is cleaner, more renewable, and I have no doubt that in years to come it will only improve. We're trying to preserve habitat for buffalo instead of shooting them by the truckloads.

However, we are only human. We can only do so much at one time. We've already messed up a lot of things...but we also have the abilities to do so much more.

I always thought of myself as a pessimist, but reading this thread makes me feel like Susie Sunshine. I don't know how concise anything I have said is...I'm kind of rambling all over the place. If anyone can make sense of what I have just written, kudos.


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## CECIL

Society is getting larger and teh rate at which everything changes is accelerating. We can only accelerate for so long before we hit a wall.

We are fast approaching this turning point and its not so far away. There really are two choices:

1. We continue to destroy ourselves and our planet (fear). In this case we reach a cataclysmic end and our civilisation crumbles upon itself.

2. We begin to re-engineer our social values, placing a larger emphasis on emotional values. We balance intelligence, wisdom, emotion and intuition. We sort out what actually matters and what is just "eye-candy" (hint: Celebrities, money, new cars, sales, marketing are eye-candy) and begin to cultivate the things that matter.

We let our old social mode crumble as a new one emerges from the rubble.

(Also see my last post for the fear vs love argument).


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## Dreamer

Original poster was a bot.
Said bot deleted. This was an old debate.
Locked so original bot doesn't return.
Had links to .... ?


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