# How could you determine if you have a personality disorder?



## ashgray2 (May 5, 2009)

How could you determine if you have a personality disorder?

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## Guest (May 5, 2009)

You can't, you see a psychiatrist and they can.


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## York (Feb 26, 2008)

What's a personality disorder?


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

york said:


> What's a personality disorder?


It's what it sounds like, but I don't really 'believe' in them if that makes any sense. Psychiatrists have made attempts to group people of similar 'abnormal' personalities into categories. I'm sure you've heard of a few - Borderline, Narcissistic, Schizoid, etc.

They are thought to be very difficult to treat - and for obvious reasons IMO. They are a person's personality with is a part of them as opposed to a disorder.


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## York (Feb 26, 2008)

I thought that might be it. I agree, that just seems wrong.. In that case one should think "everyone" has a personality disorder, even if I get the fact that some of those are extreme types of personalities. It's the term in it self I find so disturbing I think,
they should really consider calling it something else.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

ashgray2 said:


> How could you determine if you have a personality disorder?


I'd say if you feel like something's wrong with you, then you have a personality disorder.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

Conjurus said:


> ashgray2 said:
> 
> 
> > How could you determine if you have a personality disorder?
> ...


Quite often the opposite. Disorders of the personality are just that - supposed disorders in the very essence of what makes up a person. Not saying that a person with a personality disorder is incapable of seeing differences between themselves and others, but your average borderline, narcissist, sociopath, etc. does not notice anything wrong because it is who they are.

And Anne - I agree with you, i'm perfectly fine with labelling mental health conditions, but to label somebody with a personality disorder says "There is something wrong with who you are".


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## Guest (May 6, 2009)

Matt said:


> Disorders of the personality are just that - supposed disorders in the very essence of what makes up a person. Not saying that a person with a personality disorder is incapable of seeing differences between themselves and others, but your average borderline, narcissist, sociopath, etc. does not notice anything wrong because it is who they are


Matt seems to have rather insightful answers. :mrgreen:

The key, as always, is if there is a DISORDER it hinders social and occupational functioning and/or infuriates those involved with such a person ... well, same thing.
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*My mother, a psychiatrist, had a borderline patient who stalked her, me and our housekeeper.*
Borderline definitely exists. If you want an example, brief, my mother was a psychiatrist in the 1960s/70s/and some of the 80s. She had a number of borderline patients, but one in particular became Hell on earth to her and to our "family." (Family was my mother, and our housekeeper). This woman, "fell in love/hate" with my mother (my mother found this woman was seeing multiple psychiatrists simultaneously and said she could not treat her -- that is a legal reason to terminate a psychiatric relationship).

Sent nude pictures of herself (and I mean 500 cards at least. She assaulted her ... huggged her, forced herself into my mother's office. Called our house repeatedly and hung up. When she received a restraining order stalked her, (and me and the housekeeper), BROKE INTO OUR HOUSE, then began to post negative things about my mother's ability to practice medicine at the hospitals she worked at, etc. The typical, "I HATE you, don't leave me." Situation. Bottom line, the woman never left us alone. When I put my mother in a Nursing home in 1992, this woman followed me there. I had police/sheriffs remove her from there at least once. The woman was a stalker who saw things completely in black and white ("you love me, or you hate me, and hence I hate you.) 20 some odd years of stalking.

Believe me, this woman scared the SHIT out of me, and the housekeeper, and we were on a first name basis with our police department who found her lurking around our house all the time.
----------------------------------------------------
This is not a "normal personality" -- this is something seriously wrong. Ironically this woman had a TWIN who did not have this.

Here is the Merck Link to Personalities Disorders. I think on one hand it has expanded far too much over the years along with a number of other disorders, and those who are truly ill do not always get proper treatment. To this day, I would not care to run into this woman. In some 30 odd years she never changed.

http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec15/ch201/ch201a.html <------- Complete Definition and LIst of Personality Disorders. Borderline, Narcissistic clearly exist. OJ Simpson would be an example of someone with a Personality Disorder -- and completely oblivious to it. He is a wife batterer, a murderer, a thief, etc., but Oh, yes, we should forgive him as he was a great football player. :roll:

From Merck:


> Personality disorders are pervasive, inflexible, and stable patterns of behavior that cause significant distress or functional impairment. Ten distinct personality disorders have been identified and grouped into 3 clusters. All are believed to be caused by a combination of genetic and environmental factors. Diagnosis is clinical. Treatment is with psychotherapy and sometimes drug therapy.
> 
> Personality traits are patterns of thinking, perceiving, reacting, and relating that are relatively stable over time and in various situations. Personality traits are usually evident from late adolescence or early adulthood, and although many traits persist throughout much of life, some fade with aging and some can be modified.
> 
> ...


EDIT: on my cousin. Schizoaffective is not a personality disorder. I believe schizoid is. Sorry.
AND, these characteristics can be on a scale of severity, however to be diagnosed with this, one would have significant IMPAIRMENT. Also, read Sam Vaknin (Google him) on his own Narcissistic Personality Disorder. He is a therapist, very much aware of his own problems.

*Also, as noted: No one here can diagnose him/herself. You need to be seen for SEVERAL sessions, not just one. I also believe in filling out certain personality tests such as the MMPI. Any diagnostician needs to "get to know you" a bit before diagnosing. And self-diagnosis is very destructive.*

There may be TOO MANY personality disorders in the DSM now. But the major ones exist. Many criminals/sociopaths/antisocial personalities are in prisons having committed heinous crimes. Rehabilitation is highly unlikely. Read "A Father's Story" by Lionel Dahmer ... Jeffrey Dahmer's father. Something was seriously wrong with Jeffrey Dahmer (serial killer), but you can't tie it down to any specific mental illness. He literally had NO EMPATHY. It was completely lacking. Very few emotions at all. If anything, he sort of had NO personality. He was almost INHUMAN as many serial killers are.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

Matt210 said:


> Conjurus said:
> 
> 
> > ashgray2 said:
> ...


Hmn, I don't think I'm completely wrong. If you always think there's something wrong with you, like in your head, and you can't figure it out, chances are something is wrong.


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## Guest (May 7, 2009)

Conjurus said:


> Hmn, I don't think I'm completely wrong. If you always think there's something wrong with you, like in your head, and you can't figure it out, chances are something is wrong.


 :? Conjurus, did you read the story of the individual w/BPD who stalked my mother? And again, how would you define someone like OJ Simpson -- he would never seek help -- he thinks he has done nothing wrong, but he was a destructive individual and petty criminal his whole life. Or a serial killer? (I'm using EXTREME examples) Such people has a very poor sense of insight into themselves. There are many people in this world who do not ask, "What is wrong with me?" -- individuals with certain personality disorders might seem eccentric, or downright disruptive and may NEVER seek treatment ... *they may be miserable, but tend to blame it on OTHERS. They can't let go of being "wronged" or rejected, when others normally go on with their lives, etc.*

Those who SEEK treatment (such as people here, even on a forum) are more likely have AWARENESS/INSIGHT and wish to "feel better." Also, healthy people have normal "different personalities" and not everyone gets along with everyone else, but someone with a disorder of personality has some serious problems.

Again, think of someone such as a serial killer, or even a pedophile (these people don't seem to be able to be rehabilitated). Serial killers are shown to have unusual personality traits from childhood. Profilers note: "the deadly triad" -- and this means that all three of these things occur early on in childhood and don't bode well: killing animals (perhaps starting with torturing bugs to killing the family dog or cat), setting fires, bedwetting beyond a certain age. These children also may never show anger, or show horrible anger. These qualities are often missed or overlooked by parents, especially when a child is "especially good" and hides these destructive behaviors.

Look at least at the extreme example. Such individuals rarely can be changed, have difficulty fitting into society, have extreme difficulty in relationships and on the job. Yet, they don't necessarily seek help. Often someone else recommends they get help, or they enter the criminal justice system where help is FORCED upon them. And change is still virtually impossible.

I think that in these cases ... the "disorder" is locked into the personality ... that is you can barely separate the two. Whereas say those of us here w/anxiety, DP, depression, etc. HAVE these problems/symptoms, but have personalities that allow us to participate in society in a positive way.

There is a reason for different categories. Normal "individuality" is not a disordered personality.

I know.
tl;dr
Learned that one on another board, LOL. :?


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

Hah, you guys are misunderstanding me. I'm not disagreeing with you. I know there are many people who won't know they have a disorder, but all I'm saying is that for instance, those who have dp- we know something is wrong. We can tell something isn't right and we seek out help and find out what it is. Those who are depressed all the time could figure out something might be wrong with them to be causing it and seek out help. Those who look in the mirror and say, "I'm fat" and then force themselves to throw up have a problem. They think there's something wrong with them- they think "I'm fat" and they have a problem. If you have a low self esteem and think you're worthless or would be better off thinking you didn't exist- this means you think something is wrong with you, so again you probably have a disorder.

No, not everyone will think there's something wrong, but that doesn't mean what I said isn't right. Those who do think something is wrong might be able to know just from that that they have a disorder.

For example. I'm not saying all A's are B's. I'm saying some A's are B's. This doesn't mean some A's can't be C's. You get it?


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## Guest (May 7, 2009)

I once had all of the symptoms of borderline persomality D and the diagnosis even though it turned out i was more complicated... Depression and severe anxiety are a horid part of bpd, its obvious something is wrong but it can be that its the destructive behaviours that bring the person to various services attention including the police service, rather than the psychological symptoms. Dreamer you realy stigmatised bpd with your post-it gets enough of that.


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## Guest (May 7, 2009)

Spirit said:


> I once had all of the symptoms of borderline persomality D and the diagnosis even though it turned out i was more complicated... Depression and severe anxiety are a horid part of bpd, its obvious something is wrong but it can be that its the destructive behaviours that bring the person to various services attention including the police service, rather than the psychological symptoms. Dreamer you realy stigmatised bpd with your post-it gets enough of that.


Ah Spirit, crap, I'm sorry.  I was using a REAL example with my mother's patient; that was not ALL of her patients over years of practice! It was ONE who tortured my mother. And oddly enough, my mother may have been Borderline. I have also attended a wonderful seminar on BPD at the NAMI Convention (2006) where suffers WHO DID GET BETTER AFTER MUCH TREATMENT (inpatient which is TERRIBLY expensive) admitted to acting in these same ways. Getting so angry at therapists they would throw chairs at them! The story with my mother's patient is real. It was a very serious case, but it happened. If I could prove it to you I would. Evidence was retained as part of the restraining order as well as documents (court records long filed away).

But the Dr..... Crabtree! had a very positive outlook re: BPD patients. And noted great success in his program. I'll find the link.

Of COURSE everyone's different. I have said with myself that I had Borderline Traits that w/DBT and Lamictal (a mood stabilizer) have decreased significantly ... say in my 40s -- my HUSBAND noticed the difference. I would get very angry, too angry at the stupidist things, put people on pedestals. Not express my true opinions, then blow up. I do not have BPD, but Borderline traits. I have so many different things going on it's ridiculous. Some OC traits (not OCD), GAD, Panic attacks, DP/DR, episodes of depression. That patient of my mother -- that is a dramatic example to illustrate the seriousness of BPD ... the REALITY of it.

I said, I am using EXTREME examples as it seems people weren't understanding the point. Also, OJ Simpson, I don't know what his story is. I'd say who knows, Anti-Social, Narcissistic. Men tend to be NPD, vs. women who tend to be BPD. Also serial killers don't have BPD, God knows what is wrong with them.

I am only supporting my POV with FACTS, links, not speculation.

And my biggest concern here is SELF-DIAGNOSIS. So many people do that. And if anything, from this conference, and Dr. Crabtree's work, he showed that individuals with BPD were not "bad people", but people who hurt terribly BUT COULD BE HELPED. It was a huge step forward in educating doctors and family members.

I'll find the link to his treatment facility. Somewhere, in this infernal computer.

I'm sorry. I hate self-diagnosis. And I don't think one person here has only ONE problem. Statistics show that if one has an anxiety disorder of one type, they most likely have yet another anxiety disorder.

And as far as I know, serial killers generally come from very abusive homes, but so do many other people. What kicks them over the edge is their personality early in childhood. As I see it, a very fixed way of dealing with trauma. And yet others ... there is no clear explanation.

I'm sorry. I am speaking the truth. And you KNOW I am very much anti-stigma. I HATE it when people use the word "schizo."

Also, people don't read my posts, as they are far too long.
Sorry. :|
I am talking facts, and backing them up with actual links.
Also, we have discussed that BPD could very well be later called "mood dysregulation" which is on the bipolar spectrum.


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## Guest (May 7, 2009)

http://www.projecttransition.com/pages/program.php

Project Transition
Programs offered, including BPD treatment. And remember Marsha Linehan's brilliant work on DBT (based on Thich Nhat Hahn's Buddhist principles) -- SHE is speaking of the success with her treatment in BPD (it was created for BPD) at the NAMI Convention in SF this year. I'd KILL to go listen to her workshop. Crabtree does not dismiss individuals w/BPD. He is a teddy bear! And he really helps people.

*What are the history and mission of Project Transition (PT)?

We were founded 23 years ago by Loren Crabtree, MD and Paul Keisling, MSW. The concept of PT evolved in response to years of working with young adults in a private psychiatric hospital. Many of these men and women experienced repeated cycles of complex, debilitating difficulties:*

* Emotional crises and multiple hospitalizations
* Substance abuse problems (experienced by over half of the persons)
* Multiple, failed medication regimens
* Shrinking social networks
* Intensifying (or ruptured) dependencies on family members
* Struggles with living independently, working, and having fun
* Erosion of self-esteem and personal hope
* A withering of energy, will, and motivation
* Health risks, including poor diet and sedentary lifestyle.

I met this man, and attended a 2 hour? workshop he gave -- I wanted a model workshop for a DP workshop I'd like to do one day. The focus was BPD. Oh, crap I forgot the link. EDIT: now it's up.

EDIT:


Spirit said:


> but it can be that its the destructive behaviours that bring the person to various services attention including the police service, rather than the psychological symptoms. Dreamer you realy stigmatised bpd with your post-it gets enough of that.


AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHH, I said that in an earlier post! That is how the individual gets treatment. They frequently do not seek help, but their actions cause them to be forced by others to seek help. :?


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## Guest (May 7, 2009)

My God LOL.....I think you missed what I was saying. I do believe you about your mothers patient, I'm not one to call people liars Dreamer, I don't understand your reaction to this.

I used to be very destructive, I raged, I screamed, I threw things, I took shed loads of drugs and drink to cope...I knew something was wrong but didn't know what-I had every bpd trait apart from being promiscuous although I did takes risks in that area.What happens with Bpd people is that they get stuck at childhood during the personality development stages. A borderline reacts as they do to situations with the black and white, all or nothing thinking patterns that has a child has....They can't help it, you wouldn't call a child bad for being a child, a borderline is simply behaving and reacting the ways they do to survive. For example I wasn't allowed to be dependent or indepentant, so I would constantly swing between the two...All or nothing, I hate you-don't leave me, all consuming love or total hatred....just like a child does...

Borderlines know something is wrong, the low moods, the anxiety, the feeling like your emotions are literally poisoning you, feeling like you literally have to leave your body because the emotions are so strong and unbearable they feel they will kill you-dissociation...but they don't see that their ways of surviving are wrong because that's all they know...they couldn't get past those behaviors, they weren't allowed to because of childhood abuse, controlling parents who are equally abandoning-no middle way, it creates a paradox, a dead end that borderlines gets stuck in and that is partly why they always literally feel cornered by people, trapped by life..literally...and so they react only how they know.

I don't need to links to back anything up...I have first hand experience. And although these behaviors-the cluster of traits that make up bpd are the persons personality, they are by no means static, they can be changed. It takes years of work, but it IS possible. I now have no traits of bpd....but I still have other dissociative stuff going on which I'm working on...People get too caught up in the labels of certain disorders.

I think everyone here was being black and white about this  Conjurus-jesse wasn't wrong, noone was wrong or right. It's not necessarily that those with bpd don't know something is wrong, it can be that they have no alternatives and do not know quite what is right, they have no healthy coping mechanisms and so react with anger and testing-push pulling to establish their place in reality and control situations.-like a cornered scared animal-they just react to survive mostly, and that goes for the abuse they suffer also-they think it's normal until they are shown differently.

I have nothing else to say on this subject, these silly forum debates don't really go anywhere and we all get tied up in mis-communication..


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## Guest (May 7, 2009)

Spirit said:


> I think everyone here was being black and white about this Conjurus-jesse wasn't wrong, noone was wrong or right. It's not necessarily that those with bpd don't know something is wrong, it can be that they have no alternatives and do not know quite what is right, they have no healthy coping mechanisms and so react with anger and testing-push pulling to establish their place in reality and control situations.-like a cornered scared animal-they just react to survive mostly, and that goes for the abuse they suffer also-they think it's normal until they are shown differently.


Yes, I agree completely with this. I had no intention of perpetuating a stereotype. If anything, I swear to you, at the NAMI Convention, Crabtree's lecture, this was a major breakthrough in stigma-busting. Yes, in the past, individuals with BPD were literally "passed around" from shrink to shrink ... I heard that from my mother, and I've heard it from therapists today. Nowadays, there is greater understanding, and Linehan's work (and Crabtree, etc.) has proven there are better treatment methods that help a therapist work without frustration -- and there is a belief that this particular personality disorder is responsive to treatment far more so than others.

See, my thing ... as always ... always has been wanting to be understood. And I guess that's what I'm doing, carrying on with links, maps and charts. :lol: No intent to do harm.
Truce?
D 8)


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

Eh, I still think I have a good point. :wink:


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## Guest (May 8, 2009)

Dreamer* said:


> See, my thing ... as always ... always has been wanting to be understood. And I guess that's what I'm doing, carrying on with links, maps and charts. :lol: No intent to do harm.
> Truce?
> D 8)


I understand the need to be understood 8) , I used to debate to the death...Lol, Sure, truce :mrgreen: .


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## daisymay (Oct 4, 2009)

Hiya everyone. Sorry if this post misses points or repeats - I'm not focussed enough to read all the threads. Just wanted to add my 2 cents (and I'm new so sorry in advance if I break any conventions). 
I was dx bpd 28 yrs ago and have fought accepting this dx for years. Now I am re-dx complex PTSD. I am the same person I ever was, but what I can accept now is that what happened to me is now emphasised and so the ways I used to cope with my childhood are just that, not that my personality is maimed and so that is what I am - a maimed and stigmatised person, but that others maimed me and that I can now feel more trust to deal with my issues because although I "fit" most of the DPD list of symptoms I have never displayed or acted out the things people believe, in our general culture, or have heard of about "people with personality disorders" often do, ie doing mean things. I am not free of prejudice myself, even though I am a survivor, and I don't like this about myself, but sometimes it's just common sense, or at least self protection, or it's just I am a product of our present social culture same as anyone else. I also have been dx ADD, but feel the damage I received psychologically also contributed, and that maybe these symptoms (disorganisation, muddle, forgetting and losing things and not able to cope well with stress, ie can't concentrate and make mistakes that can cause big problems - ie forgetting to record meds people I recently at work was looking after had taken) are part of my emotional condition, not just damage psychoneurally, ie if I progress emotionally, maybe I can progress with my LD (learning difficulties). I worked for 2 years as an English teacher in VIth form college, so the myth if you have an LD you are not academically bright is another I find hard to deal with - confusing, as sorry if I seem to be show-offy to say so, but I have an IQ of 147, apparently. I feel like Marvin the Paranoid Android sometimes - from Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy - "Brain as big as a planet and all I can do is open this door!" (Sorry to fellow geeks if this is a really bad misquote!) At the moment I'm not working, but if I pluck up the courage to go on incapacity (sorry to US members if they don't recognise this term - incapacity benefit in UK is what you can get if they believe you are incapacitated enough physically or mentally not to be able to work). I'm scared though because I've lied all my working life on health questionnaires and said I've never suffered any mental health issues. And if I want to work again in a satisfying job apart from just doing cleaning jobs I may not be able to as they will know from my official paperwork. Sorry, I'm rambling, but hope some of my points are relevant to your discussion. 
Anyway, a big  to everyone on these boards and solidarity to all of us in this often very hard and difficult world (also in my case to those who may have kids and desperate to keep going for them!) Daisymayxxx


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