# Mental vs physical



## hotrille

Please excuse me for this very gloomy thought, though it seems bad enough comparing one person's misfortune to another person's misfortune... A lot of the times thouh, it seems our misfortunes are really problems that scale a lot bigger than of those people in the normal, everyday world experience. With that said, I feel like having a physical illness is much more preferable to me than having a mental illness. What I thought was that maybe a physical illness would be easier to take care of and "cure" rather than a mental illness...

But after fleshing this post out, I realize that there are some plusses to having a mental illness versus a physical illness. For one, you are not in bodily pain and don't have to take pain medication. Secondily, you are not paralyzed or have lost your limbs or anysort. Also don't have to change your diet (unless you happen to be overweight lol) or modify the your physical environment to deal with illness. Thirdly, it does not ultimately lead to death (well, I go back and forth on that one because of the potential crisis situation). On the whole though, i think that mental illness robs a person of happiness more often than not. And I don't know the purpose behind people having mental illnesses. I don't know, it could be worse. One thing I've heard though is that mental illness is highly treatable, something to think about considering many of the 'incurable' physical illnesses out there. Anyway, I hope I don't sound too crazy, weird and wacky.


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## CECIL

There's really no boundary between physical and mental, though our society likes to put one there. In general mental illness carries much more stigma because you can't physically see it.

For example if you see someone has no legs you know they have a disability. But how can you know someone is depressed? Perhaps they are just acting that way?

But personally the idea of having a disability didn't sit well with me, so I changed the way I looked at my experience and its helped me to heal.


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## Dreamer

hotrille said:


> Please excuse me for this very gloomy thought, though it seems bad enough comparing one person's misfortune to another person's misfortune... A lot of the times thouh, it seems our misfortunes are really problems that scale a lot bigger than of those people in the normal, everyday world experience. With that said, I feel like having a physical illness is much more preferable to me than having a mental illness. What I thought was that maybe a physical illness would be easier to take care of and "cure" rather than a mental illness...
> 
> But after fleshing this post out, I realize that there are some plusses to having a mental illness versus a physical illness. For one, you are not in bodily pain and don't have to take pain medication. Secondily, you are not paralyzed or have lost your limbs or anysort. Also don't have to change your diet (unless you happen to be overweight lol) or modify the your physical environment to deal with illness. Thirdly, it does not ultimately lead to death (well, I go back and forth on that one because of the potential crisis situation). On the whole though, i think that mental illness robs a person of happiness more often than not. And I don't know the purpose behind people having mental illnesses. I don't know, it could be worse. One thing I've heard though is that mental illness is highly treatable, something to think about considering many of the 'incurable' physical illnesses out there. Anyway, I hope I don't sound too crazy, weird and wacky.


Dear hotrille,

(I always think of "Through the Looking Glass" or The Jabberwocky sp? when I see your name -- "'Twas brillig and the slithey toves, did gire and gimble ....") I have no clue why :?

But I digress, forgive,

You make an important observation, one cannot compare anyone's illness to another, but I, being upset this weekend over someone's mental illness and suffering am back on my horse as a mental health advocate.

1. *A mental illness is a physical illness in the brain.* I won't argue DP/DR as an illness per se (I believe it is a symptom), but we know for certain that schizoprhenia, autism, bipolar, depression, and many other mental illnesses are brain disorders.

*Bottom line NO ONE can debate that schizoprhenia and bipolar at minimum aren't MEDICAL/NEUROLOGICAL disorders. And yet they are low on the research list.*

To me that is more horrific than anything else. The brain is the seat of the Self, it is how we deal with what life throws at us, it regulates everything from our breathing to our sexual desires. When the brain fails on us, it is the most important organ failing.

2. As for not having bodily pain, some have severe somatized pain that is real, but that cannot compare I suppose to most horrible pain disorders, however, those with bipolar, schizophrenia and *those with serious brain disorders DO need medication or they cannot function socially or occupationally.*

They are seen as weak, useless, freaks, when it is their brains that have failed them. Also a disorder such as schizophrenia easily shows brain damage on a number of scans. The size of the ventricles in the brain are of not normal size, etc. *If you look up schizophrenia it is indeed a neurological disorder that affects all aspects of what makes us human, and there is no cure.*

There are remissions, there are recurrences. Some function far better than others -- almost near normal. Others -- well when you see the "crazy" woman on the street corner pushing her shopping cart filled with garbage -- she probably has a brain disorder that has never been treated, or cannot be treated -- she doesn't respond to the treatments available.

3. The mentally ill DO change their diets (if you are on an MAOI you must eliminate all fermented foods), you gain weight on anti-psychotic medication and must be especially careful about diabetes and other physical problems.

I personally have eliminated caffeine, alcohol, and take no rec drugs and never have. I miss caffeine the most. Sigh. Also, I need to be careful about mixing my anxiety/DP meds with regular stuff. I have back problems, and I'm scared of NSAIDS, but sometimes I really need them. I don't like being on my psych meds either, but I wouldn't be able to function without them.

4. You may not have a paralyzed limb, but you may have a paralyzed brain. A Self that cannot participate in the world in any fashion.

And environment must be changed. Stress managed as stress can set off serious episodes of mania, or psychosis, or depression, or anxiety.

5. *And yes, mental disorders can lead to death -- so can the medications that are used to treat them which is true of many other medical disorders.* Either a person is uncapable of caring for him/herself and dies on the street. Many mentally ill are in prisons where they are attacked and brutalized by other inmates. Some are mistakenly killed by police (though there is more and more police training re: dealing with this)

*And ultimately, mental illness can be lethal as one gives up and commits suicide.*

Mental illnesses (and again, I will not argue about DP/DR, I have my own theories) are disorders of the BRAIN. How is it we see that all other organs, other organ systems can "get sick", "malfunction", but this isn't true of the brain?

We believe in stroke, serious trauma, Alzheimer's, but we don't see how destructive schizoprhenia is, how debilitating anxiety can be? How these things ruin lives in their own way, destroy famlies, etc.

I just had to say this again, getting in touch with someone very dear to me who is very ill but is doing better right now; up and down his entire life. He has several mental illnesses -- many variants of a hodge podge -- and his mother was schizophrenic, yet as far as I'm concerned he is far braver and more productive than I am. He fights just as hard as anyone with a physical illness (and he has a few of those too, we're getting older).

I just suppose ... one could say ... what is the worst situation you see yourself in -- that is your private prison? And we can't compare illnesses, but understanding of the brain is far on the horizon. I can't answer the question, but I'd trade DP/DR for a lot of other NON brain-related disorders, I'll put it that way, although I don't want my mother's Alzheimer's.

I don't want to take away hope. But we have to see the fact that mental illness is serious, yet it isn't taken seriously.

*No one in this world should suffer. But we all do, in one way or another. And there are a few who seem to go through life "care-free". Maybe they do, I don't know. It's interesting how many "happy" people have some skeleton in the closet, some illness, a sick relative, a genetic disorder.*

IMHO,
D

See http://www.nami.org
National Alliance on Mental Illness

(Dreamer's spam as I'm tired of the X rated video spam in this section, lol) 8) :?


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## Dreamer

Interesting Cecil,
We both posted at the same time. Personally, I was relieved when I got a diagnoses of DP. I thought I was the only person in the world like this, and I'd been that way for years.

For me, THAT gives me a sense of control.

And I feel less alone.

*Whatever gives us strength and a positive outlook -- it doesn't matter as long as it works.*

Cheers,
D


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## CECIL

Yeah I must admit its relieving to know that you're not alone.



> Bottom line NO ONE can debate that schizoprhenia aren't MEDICAL/NEUROLOGICAL disorders.


I can, but you probably don't want to hear it


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## Dreamer

CECIL said:


> Yeah I must admit its relieving to know that you're not alone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bottom line NO ONE can debate that schizoprhenia aren't MEDICAL/NEUROLOGICAL disorders.
> 
> 
> 
> I can, but you probably don't want to hear it
Click to expand...

OY, I imagine you could debate this Cecil, but you would be dead wrong. If you have done the research I have (and I am no expert), from Medical Journals and books, and uni studies, you would see. And I mean years of research. I have been (in the 1980s) to one of the last few State Hospitals where the sickest of the sick had no other place to go.

*But more importantly you must spend time with people with various mental illness. Not just one meeting, or two, but interact many times, in various situations.

There is undeniable proof that schizoprhenia and bipolar are both medical illnesses. There is no way you can prove otherwise. Individuals suffering from these illnesses would tell you so themselves -- and not because someone told them so -- family members often had to get them help as they didn't know what was happening to them.*

If you site someone like Thomas Szasz sp? and other anti-psychiatry mavericks you are barking up an uninformed tree. And certain parts of the internet are full of garbage. Also, I'm furious at the likes of the great Hollywood Scientology gang who are completely anti-psychiatry.

A doctor can be an idiot (I don't like psychiatrists) -- that doesn't mean an illness doesn't exist. But why would a seriously mentally ill individual be hospitalized? It is the most difficult thing in the world here in the U.S. to get a bed on a psych ward. Disability stinks. Are these people "faking" their problems -- hallucinations, disorganized thinking, inability to communicate properly?

There are individuals here w/DP/DR who have been hospitalized. This doesn't mean they're "crazy" -- God I HATE that word -- it means they need help getting stabilized. What was wrong with John Nash in "A Beautiful Mind" -- have you read the book? Not just seen the film?

*I still think the most important thing that would prove to you BEYOND THE SLIGHTEST DOUBT OR MISINFORMATION is to interact with someone who is seriously mentally ill.

These individuals will speak for themselves as well, about the horror of their illnesses, the horror of trying to get help in a mental health system that doesn't see their illness worth treating.

Not acknowledging the damage done by this illness alone is simply creating more barriers to research of the brain (though schizophrenia is top priority); and any research leads to understanding of the healthy brain.*

STRESS CAN SET OFF A DOWNWARD SLIDE IN A MENTALLY ILL INDIVIDUAL, YES. ENVIORNMENT CAN PLAY A PART, BUT THIS IS TRUE OF ANY ILLNESS. THE DEATH OF A SPOUSE OR CHILD CAN PRECIPITATE DEPRESSION (REACTIVE)WHICH CAN EVOLVE INTO ENDOGENOUS DEPRESSION. DRUGS CAN PRECIPIATE MANY MENTAL ILLNESSES. (THEY ARE EXTERNAL STRESSORS AS WELL.)

I would listen to your arguement sp!? but have indeed already clearly made up my mind on this one. Step into the shoes of someone with such an illness, and you will change your tune.

Only people who could step into OUR shoes (and can't) can understand the Hell of severe DP/DR.

And again recall that all medical conditions come on a spectrum, and also many have better coping mechanisms than others, more social support systems.

My sense is that you simply do not have enough personal experience with this. And that is fine. But I speak from years of knowledge and trying to destroy misconceptions.

You can try CECIL, but you'll never convince me. But you can try. 8) My guess is you've never had a parent, family member, child, friend who has a serious mental illness. Or you do, and don't see it. Many schizoprhenics and those with other mental illnesses look "perfectly normal" as do we. They are not freaks, they have brain disorders which are not visible to the naked eye in many cases.

*One question: What is wrong with someone who is talking to him/herself, completely paranoid, living on the street, afraid of food you might offer as it is "contaminated", who prefers living near a dumpster, has ignored personal hygiene, who is frightened by you, etc., etc., etc. What is wrong with that person?

Lack of will to pull him/herself together? That is a sad lack of empathy for a very sick person.

And again, how is the brain exempt from getting sick? I cannot understand this logic. We know tumors and stroke can change personality. We know serious injuries to certain parts of the brain can change function in all ways.*

Cheers and Sigh - end of lecture 8),
D


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## Dreamer

Ah, and if I get comfort knowing I am not alone, and never knew there was a name for my problems including severe panic/anxiety/depression. Why? How did I have these symptoms as a child? How would a child know how to "pretend to be ill". I didn't read these things in a book at age 5.

Sigh.


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## CECIL

Once again you misunderstand me Dreamer, but that's ok 

I'm definately not saying that mental illness isn't an issue, because it is. And I whole heartedly agree that people who say things like "You are just making it up" or "its all in your head, snap out of it" are ill informed. Don't even get me started on Scientology :roll:

You are right that I haven't had much contact with mentally ill people. Although I have had a mental illness myself (Depression and DP). When I was diagnosed it was like a smack in the stomach. I had a hard time accepting that I actually did have a problem. But I eventually did, and it helped me at first because I could identify with the problem and start to take steps to heal it.

However, I eventually realised that this label - "Mentally Ill" - did not serve me. I realised that I could carry it around with me for the rest of my life and let it define who I was. I realised that day to day I would use it as a reason not to get out of bed, or not go to uni or to not go and see my friends. I realised that the longer I believed there was something wrong with me, the longer I would be paralysing myself.

So, with the help of a therapist as well as taking on board a lot of spiritual beliefs, I began to change my perspective of the world. Instead of saying "There's something wrong with me", I began to realise that "There is nothing wrong with me, there never was and there never will be".

Now don't take that statement wrong. It doesn't imply that I was making it all up inside my head or anything like that. What it means is that there's nothing wrong with being "mentally ill" - that there's causes behind it, that its a VALID experience and that its ok for your mental/emotional state to not fit into what society defines as normal. It means acknowledging that there is a problem but having faith in being able to solve that problem.

This is true for all "mental illnesses". Basically, I don't like the term at all because it implies there is something wrong with someone. Well, there's not. A schizophrenic in a hospital is having a really fucking bad time, no doubt. But I don't see that as a sickness and I sure as hell don't think it makes them any less of a person. I believe that pasting labels on people just makes things worse. I see that person in a hospital in bad shape and in need of help.

I also don't like the terms "hallucination" and "hearing voices" etc. They all imply that the person is simply fucked in the head and "seeing things that aren't there". I very much take Jung's approach, which is to acknowledge that person's experience as REAL. Because to them it is very much real. They aren't seeing things that aren't there, they have just somehow shifted their awareness to be sensitive to other energies and don't know how to process that.

Now here's the kicker (And also the part when I admit I am insane  ). I'm taking courses in Shamanism at the moment. In many ways it can be described as "A controlled decent into madness". Basically, we are learning to 'see' things outside of normal perception and awareness. If you went to a doctor and told them about these things, they'd probably lock you up.

However, the point is that these kinds of experiences are only negative if they negatively impact your life. In my case, they are a positive force. In the case of a Schizophrenic, they are negatively impacting their life. But only because they don't know what the fuck is going on. Sit them down and teach them about what's happening and how to regain some control and you might get different results. Personally I don't think trying to "make them normal" by giving them drugs is going to do any good. And the longer they cling to the idea that they "should" be thinking a certain way and "shouldn't" be doing this and that, the longer they will stay "sick".



> OY, I imagine you could debate this Cecil, but you would be dead wrong. If you have done the research I have (and I am no expert), from Medical Journals and books, and uni studies, you would see. And I mean years of research. I have been (in the 1980s) to one of the last few State Hospitals where the sickest of the sick had no other place to go.


I admire your dedication to this Dreamer, I really do. The thing is, all of those medical journals etc are coming from the perspective that we are broken people. That we somehow need to be "Fixed" so that we can be "normal". Honestly, fuck that. I have problems, yes. But I can heal my wounds. All of the people that write those books and studies also have problems to some extent, yet according to science all of those problems can be watered down to some fault in the brain.



> But more importantly you must spend time with people with various mental illness. Not just one meeting, or two, but interact many times, in various situations.


That's something I would like to do, but probably not until I could handle it better, since I am still not fully healed myself.



> There is undeniable proof that schizoprhenia and bipolar are both medical illnesses. There is no way you can prove otherwise.


Medical and scientific proof proves that the medical and scientific definition is correct. Can you see the logical fallacy here? They start with a definition of "normal" (Normal thoughts, normal levels of chemicals in the brain etc). Then they define "Ill" - "Anything that exists outside of 'normal'". They then set out to prove that people with mental illnesses do not fit into that category of "normal". Then this is offered as proof that people with mental illnesses are somehow broken and/or damaged. It just doesn't sit well with me.

I know how the scientific method works, having been a part of it (Did an Honours thesis and a Degree at University). Well, apart from the fact that you can't prove anything in science (I'll let that one slide  ), its all a matter of definition and perspective. If you come from the perspective that anything outside of the average means sickness, then sure you'll prove that. But if you get rid of those definitions that really don't serve us and just accept people at face value, you can probe deeper into what it actually means.



> A doctor can be an idiot (I don't like psychiatrists) -- that doesn't mean an illness doesn't exist. But why would a seriously mentally ill individual be hospitalized? It is the most difficult thing in the world here in the U.S. to get a bed on a psych ward. Disability stinks. Are these people "faking" their problems -- hallucinations, disorganized thinking, inability to communicate properly?


Nope, not faking at all. And yes, they definately need care and help. Its completely shit that people can go without help when in that state  I think it all stems from a lack of understanding about the things the people are going through.



> There are individuals here w/DP/DR who have been hospitalized. This doesn't mean they're "crazy" -- God I HATE that word -- it means they need help getting stabilized. What was wrong with John Nash in "A Beautiful Mind" -- have you read the book? Not just seen the film?


Neither actually. Yeah I'm not a fan of the word either. I've learned to take it as a joke now. Really all "Crazy" means is that you lie outside "normal", so fuck it. Being crazy is much more fun and being true to myself as well 



> Not acknowledging the damage done by this illness alone is simply creating more barriers to research of the brain (though schizophrenia is top priority); and any research leads to understanding of the healthy brain.[/b]


I do agree that we must acknowledge what's going in and that turning a blind eye isn't helping anyone. However I no longer put much faith in science. I see "mental illnesses" as MENTAL and EMOTIONAL dis-ease and therefore not something you can solve by slicing up a brain. How about actually talking to these people and seeing what's causing so much fear and pain in them?



> I would listen to your arguement sp!? but have indeed already clearly made up my mind on this one. Step into the shoes of someone with such an illness, and you will change your tune.


Always so quick to assume what I mean Dreamer  Its ok if you've made up your mind, I'm not here to try to persuade you, just to give you another perspective on the issue. If you choose to ignore me, that's fine.



> Only people who could step into OUR shoes (and can't) can understand the Hell of severe DP/DR.


Which makes us the perfect people to learn about these issues. BUT, you can't heal other people if you are bleeding on them. Heal yourself first.



> My sense is that you simply do not have enough personal experience with this. And that is fine. But I speak from years of knowledge and trying to destroy misconceptions.


I have personal experience with Depression and DP. I'm not sure how severe mine was compared to yours, but that doesn't really matter. All that matters is we've had similar experiences and so we can at least relate to each other there. I also like to destroy misconceptions and personally I find the idea of "mental illness" a big misconception. Simply by changing the way we look at things can open up a massive space and give us room to move. If you carry around the belief that there's something wrong with you and that you need to be fixed, you have nowhere to move. If you take on the notion that you are experiencing difficult times but that's ok and you can move through it, you suddenly have some breathing room. That's the idea.



> *One question: What is wrong with someone who is talking to him/herself, completely paranoid, living on the street, afraid of food you might offer as it is "contaminated", who prefers living near a dumpster, has ignored personal hygiene, who is frightened by you, etc., etc., etc. What is wrong with that person?*


*

Abolutely nothing. There's nothing wrong with them. However, they obviously have a lot of things going on for them. There's a lot of fear, anxiety, pain. I'm sure they'd have some amazing stories to tell about their life. I'm sure they are one of the most courageous people in the world to have gone through all of that and still have the will to live. But most of all, that person can change their life if they want to and if they are shown the way.

/rant
Hopefully it doesn't sound too crazy for you Dreamer *


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## CECIL

Dreamer said:


> Ah, and if I get comfort knowing I am not alone, and never knew there was a name for my problems including severe panic/anxiety/depression. Why? How did I have these symptoms as a child? How would a child know how to "pretend to be ill". I didn't read these things in a book at age 5.
> 
> Sigh.


There's no way you could fake it at that age. I don't know your past, but I'm guessing there were problems in your life at that age. Or since you mentoned it, possibly a mentally ill parent?


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## Dreamer

Quote:


Dreamer said:


> One question: What is wrong with someone who is talking to him/herself, completely paranoid, living on the street, afraid of food you might offer as it is "contaminated", who prefers living near a dumpster, has ignored personal hygiene, who is frightened by you, etc., etc., etc. What is wrong with that person?


CECIL'S RESPONSE:
"Abolutely nothing. There's nothing wrong with them. However, they obviously have a lot of things going on for them. There's a lot of fear, anxiety, pain. I'm sure they'd have some amazing stories to tell about their life. I'm sure they are one of the most courageous people in the world to have gone through all of that and still have the will to live. But most of all, that person can change their life if they want to and if they are shown the way."

Ah, Cecil we have to agree to disagree. I see you have a positive attitude and good intentions in what you are saying, but what you have said above -- that such a person (seriously mentally ill) can change their life if they want to, etc.....

A seriously ill person CAN be given life skills to help them cope, but their level of functioning is frequently far below what most "healthy" people are capable of. This would be like saying that someone with enough encouragement could overcome congestive heart failure if they tried hard enough.

There ARE coping skills, ways of living with ANY disability, not just a mental illness, but this doesn't mean the individual is CURED.

1. Mental illness existed before psychiatrists did. So have physical illnesses. I'm too tired to site a myriad of examples.

2. "Normality", yes, can be culturally defined and interpreted, yet this does not change the fact that a person can be ill. Yes in some cultures mental illness might be interpreted as a gift -- as it is grossly misunderstood.

*3. Again, the most important part of this equation is in meeting with and talking with individuals with various mental illnesses. This isn't "labeling" any more than we say, "this person has diabetes" or "this person has fibromatosis" sp?*

4. There have been extensive studies on the brains of mentally ill people. There have been POST-MORTEM examinations. If you care to donate your brain, Harvard will be happy to have it! I swear to you.

*Harvard Tissue Brain Resource Center, McLean Hospital*
http://www.brainbank.mclean.org

5. There are many mental health professionals who themselves are mentally ill. Believe it or not. This is not new news. That being so would imply that an individual who is fascinated by the workings of his/her own mind and the minds of others is "wallowing" or "perpetuating" his/her illness.

This is not true. Many have "come through to the other side", far more functioning, but note, the "eccentric person" you may meet at work, someone's "strange uncle" maybe someone undiagnosed.

*Again, what I can't understand is why one cannot believe a brain can malfunction.*

*And one more time, if you haven't met someone who is seriously ill, you cannot understand. Voices are HEARD, as real VOICES. Some people who aren't psychotic have this problem. Scientists are trying to figure out why. Deaf people sometimes hear things. Blind people sometimes "see things". The brain is amazing. Born blind individuals experience deja-vu. That is astounding to me. Individuals born without arms, CAN FEEL THOSE ARMS, feel a phantom limb, when they never had one to begin with.*

And I am healed enough to be able to research this without making myself "worse." My fascination with neurology and advocacy gives me purpose.

And yes, both of my parents were mentally ill -- but they were both physicians. One can have the appearance of normality and not be happy or healthy. My story is on my website.

And this may seem strange, but animals have mental illness as well, as well as physical deformities, etc.

Ah, I don't want to go on. The most important thing is to have long term interaction with someone who is schizophrenic, or bipolar, has severe OCD. Most look back on their childhoods and see they always "felt different".

I understand the places where we are miscommunicating, and I don't mean to sound defensive. Perhaps it comes across that way. But just as you are convinced of your beliefs, for now I am convinced of mine.

Did you know a certain type of strep throat causes symptoms of OCD in children? I could give you a million examples of such things, and the theories on why these happened.

But mental illness isn't a product of modern society, it is as old as mankind itself. Some fare far better than others. And neurolgical disorders involve emotion, cognition, communication, thought processing, interpretation of incoming stimuli, etc.

I don't think it is fair to say I should "heal myself" before helping others. This is a healing process for me. Hell, I'm 48, and still on my life path.

Peace,
D


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## CECIL

I think its mostly a matter of perspective and terminology.

I don't believe a brain can "malfunction", but I believe that different brains work in different ways. See the difference? One implies the brain is "broken" and needs to be "fixed", one accepts the different functioning as ok and tries to find a way to live a full life in spite of it.

Personally I feel that most mental illnesses can be healed (NOT "cured") but I only have my own experience to go on there. Some of the people I've met have worked with Mentally Ill people and helped them fully heal (e.g. Schizophrenics). Note that healing doesn't mean stopping those voices and images. Those "hallucinations" are real and always will be - its more a matter of how you look at it and how you use that expanded awareness.



> 1. Mental illness existed before psychiatrists did. So have physical illnesses. I'm too tired to site a myriad of examples.


No. The "mind" has only existed for a few hundred years (Since modern psychiatry was invented). Before that people were too busy to become mentally ill, and if you couldn't work you died. "Mental illness" is a label that's only existed for so long. Perhaps a matter of semantics though.



> 2. "Normality", yes, can be culturally defined and interpreted, yet this does not change the fact that a person can be ill. Yes in some cultures mental illness might be interpreted as a gift -- as it is grossly misunderstood.


See, I think all illness is a gift. Actually, I believe that illness whether physical, mental or emotional have inherent meanings for each individual and specific purposes. i.e. That there are direct causes for it (energetic in nature) and that the wounds can be healed. In that sense, all illness is an opportunity for learning, growth and change - even one that results in death.

Meh, anyway, just throwing some ideas out there. Keep up the good work


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## Dreamer

> No. The "mind" has only existed for a few hundred years (Since modern psychiatry was invented). Before that people were too busy to become mentally ill, and if you couldn't work you died. "Mental illness" is a label that's only existed for so long. Perhaps a matter of semantics though.


Ah, CECIL, CECIL, CECIL 8)

Sometimes I think we are talking about the same thing and other times I don't.

But briefly:

http://www.bipolarworld.net/Bipolar%20D ... aroah.html

*Mark Gold, M.D.
History of Mental Illness*

(Just a snippet - there are excellent books on the topic, but just some background)

*"Some four thousand years ago, the ancient Egyptians did not differentiate between mental and physical illnesses; they believed that despite their manifestations, all diseases had physical causes. They thought the heart was responsible for mental symptoms. Hippocrates and the early Greeks believed as well that all illness resulted from a biological malfunction; in the case of depression, from an excess of"black bile."

The ancients may have been off the.mark as to specific causes, but their non pejorative view of mental suffering and their search for medical causes were right on track.*

As history progressed, however, the "mind" view of mental illness came to predominate, and with it the conviction that the victim was to blame. Possession by evil spirits, moral weakness, and other such "explanations" made a stigma of mental illness and placed the responsibility for a cure on the resulting outcasts themselves. The most apparently ill were chained to walls in institutions such as the infamous Bedlam, where the rest of society could forget they existed.

In our Supposedly more humane era, we have freed the mentally ill from institutions and, instead of providing Continuing care, have left them to fend for themselves. Forced to be aware of them, we disdain the crazies out there and wish they would get it together and behave themselves; down deep, we really believe that if they had the strength of character, they would straighten out.

The stigma of illness of the mind is all-pervasive. If we or members of our families experience mental illness, the shame may prevent us from seeking available help or even from following the doctor's advice. Physicians often fail at effecting a cure because patients resist taking the prescribed medication."

*(The writing in this is pretty poor here, but it gets my point across.)

But I still don't understand this.*

1. A broken leg can be operated on and HEALED. Yes. And for all intents and purposes be completely functional for the rest of one's life.

2. One can have a heart attack, get treated with medications, and be functional.

In both cases there is the potential for a weakness in the leg, or the heart may have been damaged physically during the heart attack.

3. If one's brain suffers a stroke, there is PHYSICAL DAMAGE, that expresses itself in an inability to move, speak, remember things. Even personality can be changed.

I think we discussed this before, but I do see us as more a product of our grey matter. A lot of people don't like me for that. However, we are more than that. In the Harvard brain project last I heard they have dissected thousands of brains. NO TWO ARE ALIKE. HEALTHY BRAINS. They are like fingerprints or snowflakes.

But one can look at certain damaged brains and see clear malformations that go far beyond the norm. It would be like looking at a crack in a bone on an X-RAY. That is a MEDICAL PROBLEM. It would be seeing that a diabetic's pancreas DOES NOT WORK, and a person has to take insulin to make up for the fact that it doesn't work AT ALL.

*At any rate. Freud didn't invent mental illness. And personally I'm way back with the Egyptians. -- I even walk like one *

That isn't to say that environment -- from in utero, to how one is raised, to life stressors -- doesn't affect outcome.

I wish to God you would meet some mentally ill people, both highly functioning, and not functioning so well. I wouldn't need to explain anything. And again, talk with them, be with them, interact with them, live with them.

Then you might understand -- a little more. And also, believe me, I find the psychiatric profession full of a lot of idiots. There are many good practicing doctors and therapists out there, but many poor ones. But you could say the same for surgeons (say who leave surgical instruments in someone's body, OMG, or internal medicine doctors who completely misdiagnose someone and they die.) :shock:

Life is dicey. I vote that it's most difficult if your brain isn't workin' right. But what do I know?

Again, we disagree, but S'OK. 8)


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## Dreamer

I am surprised at that statement that psychiatry invented mental illness. Yipes, you are also then implying that mental illness does not affect all people around the world, regardless of race, culture, income, etc.

IT DOES.

MEDICAL ILLNESSES AFFECT EVERYONE ... and sadly, yes, where there is NO treatment it is more likely the weak die. But CHIMPS have been observed to be mentally ill! Other animals exhibit all kinds of behavior that is not constructive, can be destructive to themselves or to their community.

And there are many causes.

Illness exists in all species and has since critters were walkin' the earth. A gagillion years!


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## CECIL

Dreamer said:


> Illness exists in all species and has since critters were walkin' the earth. A gagillion years!


But they never called it "mental illness". As far as I understand it the concept of the mind has only been around for a few hundred years. Another example of how we are still evolving  But anyway, it was mostly a point about semantics so I guess it doesn't have much relevance.



> Some four thousand years ago, the ancient Egyptians did not differentiate between mental and physical illnesses; they believed that despite their manifestations, all diseases had physical causes. They thought the heart was responsible for mental symptoms.


Again, as far as I understand it (I'm no history scholar by any means), they didn't have any concept of mind back then. Hence explaining mental/emotion symptoms in physical terms. Its interesting actually, because it demonstrates how our awareness as a race has grown over time.



> 1. A broken leg can be operated on and HEALED. Yes. And for all intents and purposes be completely functional for the rest of one's life...


Yep. And IMO mental/emotional damage can be healed energetically.



> But one can look at certain damaged brains and see clear malformations that go far beyond the norm. It would be like looking at a crack in a bone on an X-RAY. That is a MEDICAL PROBLEM. It would be seeing that a diabetic's pancreas DOES NOT WORK, and a person has to take insulin to make up for the fact that it doesn't work AT ALL.


By "damaged brains" are we talking about people who've had strokes, suffered head trauma or something like that? Or are you talking about people with Mental Illness not caused by physical trauma to the brain? I'm inclined to agree that physical trauma to the brain can cause a lot of problems, but I'm skeptical about the idea that all people with mental illness have "malfunctioning" brains.



> I wish to God you would meet some mentally ill people, both highly functioning, and not functioning so well. I wouldn't need to explain anything. And again, talk with them, be with them, interact with them, live with them. Then you might understand -- a little more.


Like I mentioned earlier, technically the people teaching me about Shamanism would probably be labelled as Schizophrenic. Because they "see things that aren't there". But you can discount that if you want.

Honestly my goal is to be a healer myself and part of doing that will be having contact with mentally ill people. I look forward to that, but I know that I am not ready for it yet (at least not in that capacity). But I am taking steps towards it, so I have to be patient for now. Besides that I don't know any seriously mentally ill people - unless you count all the people who put on a suit and tie in an effort to make money every day 

But on the other hand, even though my parents have never been diagnosed or anything, I'm willing to put a wager on my Dad at least having depression. After all, I didn't learn how to be this way from nowhere


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## Dreamer

CECIL said:


> y "damaged brains" are we talking about people who've had strokes, suffered head trauma or something like that? *Or are you talking about people with Mental Illness not caused by physical trauma to the brain?* I'm inclined to agree that physical trauma to the brain can cause a lot of problems, but I'm skeptical about the idea that all people with mental illness have "malfunctioning" brains.


Suffice it to say, and I will stick with schizphrenia, yes, MENTAL ILLNESS, shows up in problems visible in brain post-mortems and various scans, etc. Also in fMRIs, etc.

The brains of schizophrenic individuals have larger ventricles and differences in the hippocampus. I also just read that they have found a potential gene connected with a predisposition to schizophrenia.

CECIL, we come from a different POV on this, but if you reread the comment about Egypt, if you see the history of early cultures including Biblical times -- those who exhibited the traditional signs/symptoms of mental illness (and I will use the obvious outward signs) -- were treated differently from others, and depending on medicine of the time were treated differently.

In Medival Times ... I'd have to double check my history on this -- if you read the article -- were thought to be possessed by demons. Individuals had holes bored in thier skulls to "release evil spirits" causing them to "act oddly". As noted, in Bedlam, those with PSYCHIATRIC MENTAL ILLNESSES were chained to walls.

I can't reeiterate all sorts of history here. Whatever you call it -- a disturbed mind, a mental ilness, extremely odd and destructive behavior, it has existed forever. You are now simply ignoring that? I don't know.

Egypt was not a primitive culture. There is evidence that the class of craftsmen who designed the temples were given health service! There is evidence of surgical procedures.

And as noted a million times the Ancient Greeks divided up "PERSONALITY' into the "Four Humors" -- look up "The Four Humours" and you will see that culture divided individuals up into personality types, some more prone to emotional/mental conditions.

Choleric
Phlegmatic
Sanguine
and 
MELANCHOLIC -- this would be depression. This is where we get the word melancholy!

The ancient Greeks were fascinated by the mind.

I can't go on with this debate as we are on such different paths. But for the bazillionth time, you will learn NOTHING, if you don't interact with truly mentally ill people. And if you are a healer as you say, how can you learn about healing without seeing those you will heal? This is like someone learning to be a surgeon without ever learning to operate on someone.

OY. I'm sorry, we simply don't see eye to eye on this. But I did find spam in the forum again, lol.

Cheers,
D


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## Dreamer

Ah CECIL,
I can't do all the work for you either. I'm so ... non functional these days.

See images of schizoprhenic brains vs. non-schizoprhenic brains in brain scans.



















Damn the good one is copyrighted. JUST READ ABOUT IT. You are making statements without information.

One of these might not stay up here as it is copyrighted.

Look up schizophrenia on Google! Look it up on PubMed. 1 in 100 individuals have schizophrenia. Some can be high functioning. Most are not. Many are on disability. There are treatments, there are no cures. Research is ongoing into understanding this.

Why would research scientists be looking for treatment for something that doesn't exist?

This is like saying the symptom of anxiety isn't caused by a normal fight/flight mechanism that is built in to all creatures for a matter of survival.

Cheers.
D


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## Dreamer

http://www.schizophrenia.com/research/schiz.brain.htm
I don't have the time to put up all the images.

*Mapping Brain Tissue Loss in Adolescents with Schizophrenia.

This map reveals the 3-dimensional profile of gray matter loss in the brains of teenagers with early-onset schizophrenia, with a region of greatest loss in the temporal and frontal brain regions that control memory, hearing, motor functions, and attention.*

Using novel image analysis algorithms, dramatic reductions in the profiles of gray matter were detected, based on a database of 96 images from schizophrenic patients scanned repeatedly with MRI. The parallel extraction of anatomical models from all patients in the image database required 60 CPU hours, when running in parallel on an SGI RealityMonster with 32 internal CPUs. [Image by Paul Thompson, Christine Vidal, Judy Rapoport, and Arthur Toga].

Volume of interest (VOI) superimposed over 3 orthagonal slices of the averaged schizophrenic brain

This is a technique used to compare the volume of different areas of the normal control brain to a brain that has schizophrenia. Note the volume is simply a sphere with 60mm radius centered halfway between the midline decussations of the anterior and posterior commissures.

Image 4. Cortical surface variability maps. Variability maps of cortical surface and sulcal anatomy in normal controls (n = 28; 15 males) and schizophrenic patients (n =25; 15 males) showing the both hemispheres. The color bar indicates patterns of variability in each group as the root mean square magnitude of displacement vectors from each point in the surface meshes.

Image 5. Asymmetry maps

Asymmetry maps were created in each group as defined by Sex and Diagnosis (NC = normal controls, SZ = schizophrenic patients). Sulcal mesh averages for each hemisphere were subtracted from a reflected version of the same structure in the other hemisphere to create displacement vectors. These maps 
represent in color the magnitude of average asymmetry in sulcal anatomy between the two hemispheres.

Image 6. 3D average surface representation and variability maps of the lateral ventricles

Variability maps are similar in both groups with highest variability in the posterior horns (NC = normal controls, SZ = schizophrenic patients). Increases in LH ventricle length and volume were determined. The color bar encodes the root mean square magnitude of variability in millimeters.

Image 7. Displacements of the lateral ventricles and corpus callosum

Displacement maps show the magnitude of displacement (mm) between schizophrenic patients and normal controls as represented by the color bar for the lateral ventricles and corpus callosum. A significant vertical displacement of the lateral ventricles in schizophrenic patients reflects a bilateral increase in ventricular volume, and corresponds to the displacement of the corpus callosum.

Image 8. Cortical surface variability maps.

Variability maps viewed from the front showing cortical surface variability in the four groups defined by sex and diagnosis.

Additional pictures and images of brains with schizophrenia can be viewed at http://www.loni.ucla.edu/

*CECIL, take a look at the images. Read the research! And again, it may seem difficult, but I go to support meetings where I meet many individuals with many mental illnesses. They don't bite!*


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## CECIL

Dreamer said:


> Suffice it to say, and I will stick with schizphrenia, yes, MENTAL ILLNESS, shows up in problems visible in brain post-mortems and various scans, etc. Also in fMRIs, etc.
> 
> The brains of schizophrenic individuals have larger ventricles and differences in the hippocampus. I also just read that they have found a potential gene connected with a predisposition to schizophrenia.


Definately interesting. Still, I find it hard to equate differences in the brain to malfunction. Honestly we know a fair bit about how the brain works, but we're only scratching the surface so far. Also, again it comes down to "normal" vs "abnormal". I prefer just to see difference. There's no doubt that Schizophrenics have a different perception of reality to you and I. My point mainly is that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Its just different.

Yes, I acknowledge that mentall illness affects a person's abilitiy to live a full and healthy life, but I maintain that "full and healthy" can mean different things for different people. For example, one idea is that Schizophrenics are merely untrained energy workers. i.e. Somehow their perception of reality has shifted so that they are sensitive to different aspects of realities than most people. Yes, this can manifest as physical "symptoms" too, such as brain structure, since mental/emotion/physical are just different layers of energy.

It isn't at all surprising that when people fall ill like this they become dysfunctional. That's because our society currently has no framework to accomodate these people. We have no understanding. I admire science for trying to understand but I feel they are going the wrong way about it (besides being built from the ground up to be unable to help people in that condition). Instead of actually trying to understand and work with these people, medical studies are done to see how to "fix" them - i.e. Shift their perception back to being "normal". That's why I have a problem with it. Why do we have to shift their perception back? Why can't we teach them to use that perception for useful things? (and there are many).

Personally I think that a lot of the dysfunction comes down to not knowing what the fuck is going on, believing that they are somehow "not right in the head" and that they are supposed to be living differently. That's a massive amount of fear and self hate for someone to take on. They don't call it paranoia for no reason.



> In Medival Times ... I'd have to double check my history on this -- if you read the article -- were thought to be possessed by demons. Individuals had holes bored in thier skulls to "release evil spirits" causing them to "act oddly". As noted, in Bedlam, those with PSYCHIATRIC MENTAL ILLNESSES were chained to walls.


There's no doubt that mentally ill people are and have been treated like shit over the years. They used to burn people like me at the stake, so I'm glad I'm at least able to make crazy posts like this on the internet 



> I can't reeiterate all sorts of history here. Whatever you call it -- a disturbed mind, a mental ilness, extremely odd and destructive behavior, it has existed forever. You are now simply ignoring that? I don't know.


No I'm not ignoring that, I was just arguing semantics. Nevermind, it isn't really relevant. YES, people from all times have experienced mental/emotional problems. Its just that in the time periods they existed the awareness of people in general was not the same as it is now. In some cultures in ancient times if someone was Schizophrenic, they were trained as the tribal Shaman or Witch Doctor. They were generally an outcast of the tribe, but they served a valuable purpose to that tribe. In other cultures they were exluded entirely or even killed for the way they were. I'm of the mind now that there is a place in our society - in fact that we desperately need people like this to be shown how to use their gifts in a meaningful way.



> I can't go on with this debate as we are on such different paths. But for the bazillionth time, you will learn NOTHING, if you don't interact with truly mentally ill people. And if you are a healer as you say, how can you learn about healing without seeing those you will heal? This is like someone learning to be a surgeon without ever learning to operate on someone.


No, I'm not a healer YET. I am learning to be one. I have started the journey but it is going to take a while. Honestly, I'm not ready within myself to meet a lot of mentally ill people. It would be very irresponsible of me to try to take them on and try to help them. Please just accept that. I assure you I won't be slicing anyone up after watching a few TV shows about it 8)

So yes, you can say I have no experience, which is mostly true. However you do continually discount my personal experience with my own illness. A lot of what I'm saying here is what has personally worked for me and you can't discount that. The rest are just ideas, which you can discount if you want.

Its always apparent that our intent is quite similar (i.e. To heal ourselves and help other people to heal as well). Just different perspectives, which is fine


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## G Force

Dear All,

I'm new to this site and don't mean to offend anyone's experiences. But as someone who has been in the medical and mental health fields for 30 years, I want to see that you are getting truth in regards to your conditions.

First, the so-called research showing brain dysfunctions by MRIs and such has never given any conclusive evidence that the changes that they saw are CAUSING Schizophrenia or Depression. How could this be? Have you been MRI'd or CT scanned for a diagnosis? No...because a medical person knows that those scans are not conclusive. Most of the studies where done on people who had been on psychotropics. It is a known fact, by the pharmaceutical studies, that psychotropics damage the brain and cause a 20% shrinkage in long-term users. So, to say that there is now evidence of a structural reason for mental illnesses is just untrue.

The actual pharmaceutical studies raw data claiming chemical imbalances have also been torpedo'd. ALL the studies showed that the current SSRIs had no more effect than placebo. NONE OF THEM.

All of this can be verified for yourself in the book "America Fooled" by Dr. Timothy Scott, Psychology Professor.

Now, why I say this is that if you go giving in to the "it's mental" theory, you are doing yourself an injustice. What happens when people get labeled for a mental disorder is they stop looking for other causes for their symptoms. I can tell you that at least 65% of you out there have a physical illness, undisclosed or undiagnosed, causing you the sypmtoms you feel on a daily basis. So for many of you I would offer that you get with a good MD and do some thorough testing for physical causes like infections, hormone fluctuations, thyroid and adrenal gland dysfunctions, diabetes, nutritional deficiencies, and allergies to name a few.

I'm not interested in making anyone feel worse with bad news. I am interested in letting people know that there is something that can be done about your "illness". It's real, I don't have a doubt about that. But if you treat it incorrectly, you won't get the results you want. Happiness is attainable and I am opening that discussion up to anyone specifically if they want to dialog about it.

Most Respectfully,

G Force


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## Dreamer

G Force, I can't believe you've been in the medical profession and are aware of the consensus that schizoprhenia is a medical disorder. I won't even get into other ones.

I can't reread the article I put up, but there are many where the scans done are BEFORE medication. Note it does say the scans here were done on teen, early presenting schizoprhenia.

Ah, I don't want to argue this.

It is a medial condition.

And for the sake of simplicity, I'll keep it to schizoprhenia, though it is clear other mental illnesses are clearly medical in nature. ENVIORNMENT can CHANGE the brain, yes, and set off a predisposition, but there is clear evidence schizophrenia is medical. It could be caused by a virus in utero, one of the theories out there now.

Too tired to discuss this. God I'm crawling today.
D

*G Force, what is your medical specialty? What kind of patients do you treat? If you were a neurologist you would not be saying this, and if you were in neurological research you would not be saying this.*


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## PPPP

G force, can I ask if you have DP and if so have you found the cause yet?



G Force said:


> Now, why I say this is that if you go giving in to the "it's mental" theory, you are doing yourself an injustice. What happens when people get labeled for a mental disorder is they stop looking for other causes for their symptoms. I can tell you that at least 65% of you out there have a physical illness, undisclosed or undiagnosed, causing you the sypmtoms you feel on a daily basis. So for many of you I would offer that you get with a good MD and do some thorough testing for physical causes like infections, hormone fluctuations, thyroid and adrenal gland dysfunctions, diabetes, nutritional deficiencies, and allergies to name a few.


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## CECIL

Thanks for the info G Force but I must agree with Layla - its a good idea to rule things out but DP is a condition that thrives on obsessing over something being physically wrong with you, so there has to come a point where you stop looking.


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## G Force

Dear All,

I can understand your questioning my credentials and my information. This is not an easy subject to talk about with "ruffling feathers". I offer these quotes from Neurologist, Psychaitrist and MDs:

?Most studies are now sponsored, designed and analyzed, in addition to being efficiently written, by pharmaceutical companies.? ? British Journal of Psychiatry (2003)

?By 1970 Ashcroft had concluded that , whatever was wrong in depression, it was not lowered serotonin. More sensitive studies and shown no lowering of serotonin. Indeed, no abnormality of serotonin in depression has ever been demonstrated.? Dr. David Healy MD, PhD Neuroscience regarding Dr. George Ashcroft first studies on serotonin levels in the brain of depressed people.

?Americans are convinced that the origins of mental illnesses are to be found in biology, when, despite more than three decades of research, there is still no proof?The absence of any well-defined physical causation is reflected in the absence of any laboratory tests for psychiatric diagnoses-much in contrast to diabetes and many other physical disorders ? Charles E. Dean, MD, Psychiatrist

?At the present time there is no proof that biology causes schizophrenia, bipolar mood disorder, or any other functional mental disorder.? ? Colin A. Ross, MD, Psychiatrist.

?I am constantly amazed by how many patients who come to see me believe or want to believe that their difficulties are biologic and can be relieved by a pill. This is despite the fact that modern psychiatry has yet to convincingly prove the genetic/biologic cause of any single mental illness.? ? David Kaiser, MD, psychiatrist

?There are no studies which take frequent functional MRIs (fMRIs) or PET scans of healthy subjects and then, based on changes in brain chemistry, predict that person A will become depressed, person B will become schizophrenic and person C will begin stealing pencils.? ?Why do advertisements ignore this most basic simple fact? Because those ads are paid for by drug companies that want you to believe that your brain chemistry may be messed up and that taking their $150 per month pills will fix your problem.? ? Dr. Timothy Scott, book ?America Fooled?.

?The whole genetics of schizophrenia rests on this house of cards (the Danish Adoption Study, 1975). What hocus-pocus!?It discredits psychiatry that these studies have been used to prove the opposite of what they really show and that the public has been consciously propagandized with misleading information?. ? Dr. Peter Breggin, MD psychiatrist.

Let's continue the discussion....

G Force


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## PPPP

You didn't answer either my question or Dreamer's 

As far as I know all anyone can say about DP/DR at this point is 'we don't know for sure'. 
We need more studies and we need more information.
We don't just know enough yet.
I do know that some folks are cured by taking psych meds. I also know that they don't do a thing for others.
Someday maybe they'll have it all figured out what causes this and how to cure it.


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## Dreamer

G Force, 
No you didn't say what your qualifications are, but I noted you cited articles from the 1970s. There has been a helluva lot of advances in all medicine since the 1970s.

I can only say again, there is a group of therapists, etc., who still cling to the idea that schizoprhenia is not medical. Their POV is crushed by overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

If you go to PubMed and plug in CURRENT journals you will see those you've cited are WAAAAAY out of date. Some of the doctors as well are either misquoted or have a very set POV they won't let go of.

IMHO.
D


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## Dreamer

Also, before there were proper drugs to treat mental illness, or even pharmaceutical companies there were asylums. They date back throughout history.

I will just have to say we disagree.

And I don't understand why you won't say what your credentials are. That only takes away from your credibility.


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## CECIL

It is a sad fact, however, that a lot of research is paid for by drug companies, who can and do make sure those studies support the drugs they are making, or turf the study out on its ass.


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## Dreamer

CECIL said:


> It is a sad fact, however, that a lot of research is paid for by drug companies, who can and do make sure those studies support the drugs they are making, or turf the study out on its ass.


*This is not always true. Reasearch funding at Mt. Sinai is VERY hard to get -- perhaps if there were a promising drug there WOULD be more research. One must apply for grants. Much research is grant funded or with donations from wealthy philanthropists.*

Pharmaceutical companies target physicians, yes. In terms of pushing new products.

But think of this. Pharmaceutical companies are competing with each other. That drive creates a real push for research scientists to push for understanding all illnesses.

True they do charge a lot for medication, but it is true research is terribly expensive, and yes, the medication pays for some of that. But think that ALL medical illnesses are being funded in one way or another. Heart disease, breast cancer, etc. But there are requests for donations from regular citizens, many who are affected by diseases in some ways.

Researchers themselves WANT to help people.

I agree however that the COST of medication is ridiculous, especially for the elderly who can't live with out heart/blood pressure medication, etc.

It's a double-edged sword.

Not that I love pharmaceutical companies in the least. I'm not defending them, but I'm saying, a good deal of research has to be funded by government grants, and those are SO difficult to get.

Sadly, business is business, in every field.

D


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