# Saw a DP/DR specialist today



## Freddy_Fred (Mar 4, 2015)

I was quite surprised with my DP specialist visit. Not sure how to feel about it to be honest. She said that my sudden DP/DR is a result of a lifetime of untreated depression and stress. She said this last stressful semester of school accompanied with the holiday rush was the straw that broke the camel's back. For a long time, I deemed my "problems" and "depression" as minimal bumps in the road. Its her opinion that they weren't. To my disappointment, she said I need to be medicated while this is going on 

I feel defeated. I never thought in my life that I would need medication. I'm soo scared and paranoid of SSRI's.

I find it hard to believe that depression and stress is the root of all this.


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## Tanith (May 29, 2008)

It's possible, though I should highlight that it's not the same for everyone.

For me depression is certainly a factor but due to the dissociation caused by DP I don't feel it to anywhere near the same degree as I would if I didn't have DP. In my case this condition has sort of acted like a defence mechanism & over time it's been easy to underplay the things it's been preventing me from feeling since I'm not feeling those emotions.

It is possible that when the DP symptoms reduce, the potential negative emotions a 'normal' person experiences could hit you like a ton of bricks due to how powerful emotions feel when compared to how they feel to someone with DP. It takes a lot to adjust back into that and to then cope once you do (so I've heard).


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## Freddy_Fred (Mar 4, 2015)

Yes. My current symptoms do not apply to everyone. It was her concern that I'm so distraught and emotional about the way I'm feeling. She wants to put a band aid on the depression so that life can be a bit more bearable while I try to recover. I asked her," i wasn't THIS devastated and sad before DP set in. How can depression cause all of this? She explained that I have to try to alleviate my sadness and dark thoughts regardless if I wasn't feeling like this before DP.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2015)

Well the thing is&#8230; you don't have to take any medication you don't want to, it's completely up to you NOT the specialist.

I went down this path with a psychiatrist who prescribed SSRI's and anti psychotics and to be honest they made me feel far worse than I was to start with. So much the disappointment of the specialist, I stopped. I saw this psych every week for 2 years and though I did make some very good ground understanding and coping with the myriad of symptoms i decided in the end I much preferred to seek out a psychologist so as not to have medication pushed on me all the time, and I've never looked back.

Freddy_Fred.. why don't you say to the specialist you don't want to rush into this and take medication just yet? Ask for some other options. Try other options. See what they say. You'll notice a lot of people here react very badly to SSRI's (and their DPD skyrockets), they really don't seem like a great first option. And besides, most people I know who are on SSRI's are depressed as hell anyway.

Therapy should be the first treatment option for dissociative disorders imo, and a decent amount so you can evaluate how it's going before jumping on the psyche drug 'campaign'.

You'll find a lot of people here have severe depression and anxiety when this disorder first hits them, and like you, many people also have dp/dr 24/7 so you're not alone on that one.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2015)

elliott said:


> If you don't want to take them, don't. The recent evidence for the efficacy of SSRIs in both depression and DPD paints a grim picture. In the worst case, new studies are finding SSRIs no more effective than placebo for depression. It amazes me that these things are still being prescribed in huge quantities despite a plethora of potential side-effects and underwhelming evidence to support their use.
> 
> The only reason I have agreed to take an SSRI is for a combination therapy with lamotrigine, which has been shown to be effective in many cases.
> 
> It's far more likely that your DP is rooted in depression and stress than it being spontaneous. Although such cases do exist - much to the discomfort of the dogmatic anxiety hypothesis crowd - they're not particularly common. Usually there is a trigger and depression and stress are good ones.


They are still being prescribed because they also act as an anxiolytic and mitigate OCD symptoms for some.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2015)

elliott said:


> I'm well aware of their indication for panic disorders and OCD. That doesn't explain their continued use for depression, which was my primary complaint. Of course, Dr Sierra also concludes in his psychiatric textbook that SSRIs are not indicated in the treatment of DP.
> 
> I think it's either naive or disingenuous to assume that doctors and psychiatrists actually think about that shit. GPs are still handing out SSRIs like candy for depression under the dubious impression that it will help. The last two psychiatrists I went to see about DP wanted to prescribe SSRIs on the basis that it was a primary treatment. They didn't know any better. They expected my DP symptoms to improve as a direct result of the SSRIs, which was just never going to happen, especially given my diagnosis of primary DPD.
> 
> ...


The goal with SSRI's was never to reduce depersonalization directly, this has been been known for awhile. They became an alternative to benzodiazepines in combating underlying anxiety contributing to symptoms.

I've seen them help many in my 9 years on this site. Typically what happens is people experience the initial side effects and discontinue the medication before any beneficial effects can happen.


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## NoFluxes (Oct 26, 2014)

SSRI's chemically change your brain long term, I wouldn't stay on them longer than 3 months tops, they really mess with you in other ways as well, some cause sexual dysfunction too, the benefits don't outway the negatives, I'm bipolar and antidepressants nearly ruined my life, pulled me out of deep depression one time only, and now I'm on lamotrigine only, which I plan to stop taking after DP subsides. I wish you the best of luck, and I believe in you and myself that recovery is possible, for some it's harder naturally, I get that.

DP won't be treated by SSRI's, it will change your mindset though, as you don't feel as miserable if they do work, if you can live your life in better ways and stop fearing depersonalization or derealization, and stop feeding it with thoughts, you will recover, we all have our own pace though, mine has been going on for almost 9 months now. Mine was drug induced panic attacks, near death experience... I am seeing some improvements with time and I will love life for what it is when I get my emotions and feelings back.

Peace.

-Chris "Fluxes"


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2015)

SSRI's are meant to be a long term medication. The chemical changes they are making are chemical imbalances that are being adjusted for the needs of serotonin levels.


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## NoFluxes (Oct 26, 2014)

elliott said:


> I'm sorry you had a bad experience with SSRIs but be careful not to spread misinformation. 3 months is barely long enough for SSRIs to reach their full potential effect in some people. Yeah, they mess with my sex drive too but it's a reversible process and if the drug contributes to my recovery, that's a sacrifice I'm prepared to make. Let each individual weigh up the benefits and drawbacks for themselves.
> 
> Regarding the "long term changes": like every other psychiatric medication, SSRIs do cause reversible neurochemical changes (in the case of SSRIs, I would guess takes the form of either serotonin receptor downregulation or decreased release of serotonin). Of course, if you plan to stay on them indefinitely, it doesn't really matter. If it's a particular concern to anyone, it's possible to taper very slowly in a process that will cause the changes to start reversing almost imperceptibly . You should always taper off of SSRIs anyway to avoid the horrible discontinuation syndrome that occurs in withdrawal.
> 
> They're generally a pretty safe, if not particularly effective, group of medications.


That's exactly what I was talking about with the downregulation, the receptors can take a bit to go back to their previous state. There aren't full benefits for me, rather rapid cycling for me, I'm bipolar it isn't meant for me, taking a mood stabilizer like Lamotrigine does well enough. My DP may have improved from Lamotrigine as well, but what I can tell you is that there are a lot of natural ways to treat both anxiety and depression without medication as well. I've tried it all. Fish oil is probably the best thing out there, it won't cure anything but it gives a mood lift and is healthy for your body. It's your choice, but I refuse to take meds that I don't actually need, in the end it's all in your mind, we have chemical imbalances though I understand that very well, but they may not be permanent either, you're talking to a guy who did some hard ass drugs and is recovering. Everything is a long healing process including DP/DR.


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

I am 56 and have been on an SSRI for more than 15 years. I take it for clinical depression. I have friends my age and older who take these medications and have for decades. They don't work for everyone -- treatment resistant ... but for many, they are lifesavers. It is a risk benefit ... you lose your job, your social life, and could commit suicide without them or other antidepressants -- I have been on many other types of ADs before SSRIs were even on the market. I was not helped by any of them.

MAO inhibiters, Imipramine, etc. Drugs that were common when I grew up. The SSRIs I believe showed up in the 1980s. I first saw a psychiatrist in the 1970s when I was 16. Klonopin had come out one year before I started seeing a psychiatrist. It was market strictly as an anticonvulsant. I wish I had been able to take it in 1975. Who knows how my life might have improved. IDK. My DP/DR would get better and worse. Now it is chronic.

SSRIs make a differece -- or I should say they did for me. I also have a friend with OCD -- BAD OCD. She started Zoloft whenever that came out after trying other SSRIs ... she has been on that since age 30. She will never go off of it as when she does her OCD gets TERRIBLE, and I mean TERRIBLE.

I also find it notable that I have been on an anti-cancer medication for 4 years which is known to cause depression in individuals. It is not uncommon. Certain SSRIs can help -- others interfere with the workings of the anti-cancer med. I was already on Celexa when I took Tamoxifen (the cancer med) which I was to stay on for 5 years. I was sick of the side effects and recently stopped it. Risk/benefit.

What is incredible is that I am LESS depressed OFF of the Tamoxifen. It is very subtle. After two months I feel "different" -- I have more motivation, I am less sad, and I have been suicidal a few times over the past 4 years as well. Suicidal feelings I had for the past 6 months are gone. (And I have been close to suicide 3 times in my life.)

*At any rate, what is unfortunate is that an SSRI is NOT what should be used for bipolar depression. It is known (by psychiatrists who have any brains) that an SSRI can trigger serious depression or mania in someone with bipolar. If a doctor sees only depression, does not get a family history, a good history from a patient, he/she may mistakenly prescribe the SSRI and cause a mess. I consider that malpractice ... but that is another story.*

True, an SSRI serves specific purposes, such as helping with anxiety/OCD and indeed with depression -- but not in ALL people.
A mood stabilizer -- originally Lithium and now many others -- Depakote, Neurontin, Lamictal are the drugs of choice for bipolar -- and there are quite a few types of bipolar -- some individuals are more depresed, others more manic, others cycle back and forth, etc. -- each case is unique. And bipolar again is NOT clinical depression.

Also, Dr. Daphne Simeon did a very long study (too long IMHO) on Prozac and DP/DR. She found no help for DP/DR. Dr. Sierra has always gone in other directions. His Klono-Combo theory and Lamictal theory has saved my life. Klonopin combined with an SSRI (Celexa ... I couldn't tolerate Prozac and a few others) and Lamictal have saved my life.

No person here will necessrily respons to ANY medication in the same way. The problem is there is no specific medication known to treat DP/DR. It is trial and error. Also, I am in DBT therapy, have a support group (depression and anxiety), and include exercise, yoga and other things which in combination help all of my symptoms. However I am not "cured."

It would seem all disorders have the ability to "go into remission" and are not necessarily cured.

One promising thing in research is that blood tests are being used to determine the best kind of anti-depressant for some people, and genetic testing can also help with figuring how to treat other psychiatric disorders.

*No one has ever said that an SSRI is the proper treatment for DP/DR, but as someone else said -- it HAS helped people here on the board -- why, I have no idea.*

Also, as noted by many here, no one can force ANY medication on you. If they make a misdiagnosis -- well that is inexcusable. However many medications (though imperfect) do keep people functioning, and again improve quality of life. Nothing is guaranteed re: any physical illness anymore than psychiatric illnesses which are FAR less understood.


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

I have been on Klonopin 6mg/day since 1987. It still works. My brain isn't fried. I know if I ever go off of it my DP/DR could go through the roof. But that means I would go back to the chronic condition I had for 25 years BEFORE I TRIED IT. It was the ONLY thing that helped me. Medicine has changed in certain ways over the past 50 years, and not much in other ways.

It is risk/benefit, quality of life, and my choice. No one forced me to take any medication I have ever had. Even pain medication after surgery. If I REALLY need it, I'll take it.

Some people can not take aspirin as they are allergic to it.

When I last had surgery, I had a morphine drip I never used. I never used the Oxycodone I was prescribed. I tried the high level Acetominophin or something, and it made me puke. I lived with the pain. THAT was easier than living with severe DP/DR.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2015)

FreddyFred.. maybe you want to check out this video before you jump into the psych meds. It's always good to get the other side of the story.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2015)

I'd much rather take his word on psych medication than some pseudo intellectual. He's got the facts and decades of experience in the field. He's done a lot of work in the field of dissociation as well.

If it's a case of his word against yours? Well, I know where I'm turning.

You've got a lot to learn about this world my friend.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2015)

So what've we got.. studies where certain drugs MAY indicate improvements. Research using 11 patients, 7 patients, 32 patients, handful here, handful there&#8230; Hmm??

There're so many variabilities in peoples everyday dissociation levels which can't be taken into account during the studies. So many different things can trigger patients from one day to the next which aren't taken into account. Basically this research is kinda useless. It's been going on for decades and they're still at square one by the looks. Lets not mention the fact that research can be easily skewed to give the results they want. As Colin Ross said also "and we don't even get to see the studies that show where the research is inconclusive."

Don't bother with getting me the complete research documents. I wouldn't waste my time reading them anyway. It's all too inconclusive and uncertain. I wouldn't put too much faith in where the scientists are up to presently.


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

Zed,

The real terrifying bit is Colin Ross is again someone I knew in the 1980s. He was a President and member of the ISSMPD.l I saw two psychiatrists who were members of that group ... Stephen Marmer and Richard Lowenstein. The ISSMPD was originally very psychoanalytically oriented. It is now less so and for many reasons, but one serious problem the group had -- Colin Ross was among a number of said doctors who was sued for malpractice in creating multiple alter personalities and false memories which patients had to be treated for or recanted.

The man does not have a great reputation. Both Marmer and Loewenstein did prescribe medications as well as provide psychoanalysis which costs a fortune. He also went to medical school when breakthroughs in psychiatry and neurology were in their infancy.

Both Marmer (long term psychoanalyst I saw in L.A.) and Loewenstein gave me medication. Lowenstein gave me Klonopin which saved my life.

Ross and the ISSMPD was under fire for a long time, and MPD no longer exists. Multiple Personality Disorder is now called DID -- dissociative identity disorder, which still isn't fully understood. I would go as far to say, the mistakes made creating false memories and multiple personalities stole away decades of research into DP and DR which got lumped into the dissociative disorder diagnostic category along with MPD.

I was actually a member of the ISSMPD in Los Angeles and attended lectures. I rejected the concept of MPD as did many other doctors after "The Decade of the Brain" which was 1990-2000, after the Genome Project was being completed.

It is your right to believe or not believe in medication. However, I suggest not only you read more current medical literature, but to meet individuals whose lives have been saved by psychiatric medication -- particularly those with psychotic disorders -- the "Big Disorders" -- bipolar, schizophrenia, and schizoaffective disorder. If you spoke to an individual who had such a disorder you would see meds have improved the quality of many lives.

Psychicatric meds are clealy imperfect. But see an individual who is severely ill on and off his/her meds. It is like night and day.

I won't go on about this. But it is a choice to even go to a psychiatrist. Many never get to see one as they are so sick or have no money to go. Mental health insurance is awful. No one is dragging anyone off the street to be drugged. It is when a person is a danger to self or others they can get "some help." 72 hours in a hospital -- if they are lucky to find a bed these days -- then back out on the street.

We have to use a holistic approach, but I agree with King Elliot re: where you get your information. There are a few members of the ISSD-T I respect. Many I find to be charlatans. They also prohibited clients from becoming active members in the group. I could no longer get their publications or attend meetings.

Thank God I was never diagnosed with MPD. Dr. Ross helped destroy many lives. I am not lying.
Too tired to go into further detail.


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

THis is the endless battle between the Freudian school and the medical contingent. Freud had many interesting theories, but many have been tossed as medicine and neurological research has advanced. It IS now 2016. Ross is in his 70s? So he came from an old school of thought.

You may choose your side. I have been on both sides of this story -- treated by psychoanalysis and by meds. I can say one thing -- the medical/neurological model certainly puts the FMS and MPD models to shame. A bad time in the history of psychiatry.


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_A._Ross

Wow, I found him in Wikipedia. I wouldn't see this man if you paid me.

Sorry to be crabby as well, but this group disappointed me so much. Loewenstein however saved my life in 1987 by giving me Klonopin which he had found helped patients with DP/DR. The usefulness of Klonopin and Lamictal (anticonvulsants) has been borne out in Dr. Marucio Sierra's research over the past 3 decades.


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

Also, there is no doctor who will say psychiatry "cures" any mental illness. Mental illness is seen as something that can go into remission and then return. Severity also varies from individual to individual.

The usual story is someone feels much better on a psychiatric med -- their symptoms more under conrol, then they go off and fall into a serious pit. These days here in the US we no longer have mental institutions. That started in the 1960s. They were emptied out as they were horrible places. NOW, anyone can refuse treatment. Then end result here in the US is the LA County Jail is the largest "mental institution" in the US.

No one can get help.

Read books by individuals who have serious mental illness, and how they got better ...
Kay Redfield Jamison -- Dr. of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins -- bipolar

Elyn Sacks -- a leading attorney -- schizoprhenia

I have a list of many other books by individuals who have been treated for serious mental illness with meds, therapy and other means and have very successful lives. I know of others who do not respond to treatment. They are homeless, in jail, or dead.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2015)

Don't try and make me out as some sort of looser or lost cause matey. B/c those, I am not. And I'm not the one here suffering from dpd either&#8230; whereas you are.

Baseless scaremongering? Really? So you think people (like Dr Colin Ross) who stand up against psychiatry and psych medication are scaremongering? Yeah right&#8230; I'd like to hear you deconstruct the arguments he put forward for a start. And me? I'm scaremongering too yeah? Like, I've got no experience and I don't know anything? And yet anything you say with your trusty 'research article' data is the be-all-to end all.. Give me a break mate. You've just started your journey here.. I'm almost at the top of this mountain and enjoying the view.

So I'm spreading misinformation? Same as above really.. You have no worthy legs to stand on. You're plucking 'facts' and figures out of any article which suits your agenda. Anyone can do that. I could sit here and pull up a hundred articles that put question marks all over the b/s science investigating dissociative disorders that you're bringing up. But I just couldn't be bothered and besides I've got better things to do. With a bit of luck, you'll end up finding out what's really happening in the world of mental health recovery. What I'd like to see is the data from the people who've recovered, b/c that's gonna make a lot more sense and be far more helpful than some of the 'stabbing in the dark' clinical studies that are going on.. But where are they? Nowhere.. and for a very good reason.

So who's really spreading the 'misinformation' anyway? Me? Colin Ross? All the other people with lived experience of dissociative disorders who've worked their way through to recovery and vow never to go anywhere near the mental health system again (and there's plenty of us believe me)?&#8230; Or, is the misinformation being spread by the medical system itself? You figure it out. I already have. I've been there, done that. I've seen first hand the overmedicating, lack of help and the lies imbedded in the m/h system and I've made up my mind from experience of having been within that system, and from the experience of lived recovery.

I know you're suffering horribly from this disorder (I can tell) and I know what it's like to feel so desperate for something to help. Here's an idea fro you. Have a look outside the mental health/medical system for some answers. Hell, we all know that 'they' can't really help at this stage&#8230;. b/c, as 'they' keep telling us 'there are no known treatments for dpd'&#8230;

You can try and derail what I say anytime you like. People'll start to see you have no answers for anything anyway.. and that's boring.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2015)

*Dreamer* said:


> Also, there is no doctor who will say psychiatry "cures" any mental illness. Mental illness is seen as something that can go into remission and then return. Severity also varies from individual to individual.


Isn't it amazing that the psychiatrists say "there are no cures for any mental illness" (how convenient for them).

They also tell us 'there are no known treatments for dpd'.

They're both lies.

Have a guess why 'they' would want to lie to us? I'll give you a hint&#8230; ((they make a LOT of money))

So have they really got your best intentions in mind?



*Dreamer* said:


> The usual story is someone feels much better on a psychiatric med -- their symptoms more under conrol, then they go off and fall into a serious pit. These days here in the US we no longer have mental institutions. That started in the 1960s. They were emptied out as they were horrible places. NOW, anyone can refuse treatment. Then end result here in the US is the LA County Jail is the largest "mental institution" in the US.
> 
> No one can get help.


I got help. And it wasn't from the mental health dept.

What hope have people got of recovery, from a system that holds no or very little hope for their patients?

Dreamer.. You share a lot of your story, so I'll share some of mine.

I spent a lot of my life at the extreme end of the dissociative scale (about 45 years) but I coped surprising well. Though it all became unstuck one night and I was basically dragged into an ED by the police after threatening to set myself on fire. I was so out of control in life and so friggin' dissociative. I obviously needed desperate help. I was so close to killing myself through my 'misadventures', and often covered in blood from self harm.... So, thanks to my visit to the hospital, I was an official psychiatric patient.

I stuck with the hospitals 'help' and the psychiatrist they sent me to. I spent 2 years in their 'intensive care'. Basically they wanted me to fry my brains on meds for the rest of my life (entry in psychiatrist assessment - 'recommend medicating for life'). I saw all my records through freedom of information and knew they really had NO IDEA on what I was suffering from. Not one of them picked up on the fact that I had DID (even though I told them that's what I had!). They didn't even suspect PTSD after 2 years either, and that was plain as day to anyone with any sort of training. The ONLY thing they ever offered me was meds and some shit therapy.

That's just not good enough. The hospital system was not helpful at all! They made me worse&#8230; My story is not uncommon at all. You don't have to look to hard to see a psych ward full of people drugged to the eyeballs and almost completely without hope.

The day I started to recover was the day I stopped the psych meds and walked away from the 'system' (and all the 'science' behind it). I worked hard, and found a great psychologist with tons of experience and spent years going once a week to therapy. I don't really suffer from dpd type symptoms anymore. I was overwhelmed for years, but not anymore. Sometimes it'll pop up, but not often. I've learnt to self heal b/c that's what one of my goals in therapy has been all along. That's a no-brainer.

Like someone said to me one day 'it's not what's wrong with you, it's what happened to make you like this'. Wise words. There's nothing 'wrong' with me anyway. There never was.

So of course I have no faith in the 'science' based medical system. They couldn't help me then, and they can't help me now. They can't help people with dpd recover either (at least that's what they continue to tell me). They can't help a lot of people with severe mental illnesses&#8230; unless of course people call 'help' or even 'a good quality of life', being on psyche meds for the rest of their lives. Some people are ok with that&#8230; I'm not. And I'll try and talk people out of going down that path every day of the week b/c there is a far healthier and more productive alternative.


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

> You're one of those irrational tree-hugging homeopathic anti-vaccine evolution-is-just-a-theory science-hating accept-my-conveniently-unfalsifiable-hypothesis-is-a-legitimate-school-of-thought-or-die lot and I hate your kind.


I could not have said it better.

At the moment I am reading a lot about dissociation, and there seems to be a lot of controversity about dissociative idendity disorder and the dissociative disorders as a whole. I've not finished reading, but my impression is, that the critics have the better arguments, while the dissociation-researchers arguments are often questionable. I would not trust anyone who works in the field of the dissociative disorders.


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## jvh18 (Feb 8, 2013)

Obviously no one is going to discredit the benefits of anti-psych meds for people with Schizophrenia etc. but look at the name of the board here, pretty sure it's not for them. This is about dp/dr...

Science and peer reviewed articles and all this might give you reassurance but what does it really mean? That a bureaucracy with regimented process is making a study. As a society we cling to the professionals in every field, we think that the top scientists understand it all, but it's not true. The brain is he most complex organic material on Earth and no matter how cutting edge we are right now, we don't have the answers, at least to most of the questions. Plain and simple.

Look at cancer. There are experts who know a crap load but at the end of the day, they really do not know much at all. People are dying every day in the masses while docs best option is to poison he body in the hope some cAncer cells will die?


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## jvh18 (Feb 8, 2013)

Anyone that is offering "relief" from dp/dr symptoms I don't take seriously. Sure t can make you function better, however there is a 100% "cure" where it's all gone, I've experience if. To strive for covering the symptoms and masking the problem as opposed to going for 100% elimination is gross/disingenuous and a waste of time. At the same time, we must realize we are all different people. Psychiatry tries to use words to label different diagnoses in the hope of a one stop shop to fix an illness. Nothing is that cut and dry. There are different levels of dissociation, that's why a scientific study like that is inherently flawed. How much can you learn from a percentage? What does 70% improvement even mean, there are so many other factors there for me to not trust that information. Further, if you haven't experienced dissaciation or worked with it for years you shouldn't be doing studies. Not sure but something tells me the researchers aren't informed enough. Haven't most of us tried to express our symptoms to other people and some have not been able to understand at all?

That is what is wrong with Western culture and I'm a proud "hippie" "treehugger". As a society we are grossly out of touch because everything is about $$. We need to question everything more and critically look at the issues surrounding medicine psychiatry etc.

If you don't have society bombarding you with ads every day saying we need to look a certain way, dress a certain way, act a certain way, drink, be successful, make a lot of money. If we spent less time online and more time outside with nature. If we took accountability, recognized our shortcomings and consciously worked to become better people instead of taking a pill in hopes hat it does.

What do big pharmaceutical companies care about, they see the world through the lens of the haves and have nots. They want to be the haves and people unhappy with their lives are easy targets. If you don't see this of at least are open to the possibility you need to think more critically and not take everything at face value.


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## jvh18 (Feb 8, 2013)

I'm just talking from my experience. Dp/dr is a different type of phenomenon, in my opinion, that doesn't necessarily fit well with how medical field treats illnesses. Why is that? Because it's something that is so unknown to most people and the medical field, we don't know how to treat it effectively. It's not a condition with, like schizophrenia with manifest symptoms that express themselves and which can be objectively successfully treated (like hallucinations etc).

Don't get me started on cancer. Do you homework, many patients don't even respond to chemotherapy. Chemo works very well with some cancers but not with others. When looking to advance, you have to look at the bigger picture, and that's what is happening now with injections of the HIV virus which has been a successful treatment so far, but like everything is being halted by the FDA so it won't be widely available for at least two years while thousands will die in that span. My little sister passed away from cancer. Oncologists never know all of he answers and they always toe the line between half a politician and half a doctor. That's not to discredit the work they do, but I am simply raising the point that sometimes we need to look somewhere else for answers or treatment.

Dude, you calling me a kook for expressing a different opinion than yours is not necessary. I agree, maybe some of these treatments help people out. But personally I've experienced what 100% recovery feels like and it doesn't just have to be about making you comfortable. To find permanent relief let's be more ambitious than that.


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

jvh18 said:


> I'm just talking from my experience. Dp/dr is a different type of phenomenon, in my opinion, that doesn't necessarily fit well with how medical field treats illnesses. Why is that? Because it's something that is so unknown to most people and the medical field, we don't know how to treat it effectively. It's not a condition with, like schizophrenia with manifest symptoms that express themselves and which can be objectively successfully treated (like hallucinations etc).
> 
> Don't get me started on cancer. Do you homework, many patients don't even respond to chemotherapy. Chemo works very well with some cancers but not with others. When looking to advance, you have to look at the bigger picture, and that's what is happening now with injections of the HIV virus which has been a successful treatment so far, but like everything is being halted by the FDA so it won't be widely available for at least two years while thousands will die in that span. My little sister passed away from cancer. Oncologists never know all of he answers and they always toe the line between half a politician and half a doctor. That's not to discredit the work they do, but I am simply raising the point that sometimes we need to look somewhere else for answers or treatment.
> 
> Dude, you calling me a kook for expressing a different opinion than yours is not necessary. I agree, maybe some of these treatments help people out. But personally I've experienced what 100% recovery feels like and it doesn't just have to be about making you comfortable. To find permanent relief let's be more ambitious than that.


Well, I think we're all still missing the point here.
*1. Don't get ME started on cancer ... I am a four year and 7 month survivor of breast cancer. My aunt died of breast cancer in 1974. 
In 2010 when I got breast cancer there were SO many more advanced diagnostic tools, chemotherapy, surgical procedures ... I am far from alone in surviving cancer treatment.
And no doctor will EVER tell me I am "cured" -- I am "in remission." In 1974, my aunt had about 2 choices for chemotherapy. Nowadays they tailor it to your type of cancer, gender, weight, age, etc.
I have many friends (because I am older) who are cancer survivors.
And also, NO ONE forced me to do anything. I could have refused surgery, chemo, everything. I did not have reconstruction (which is not a "boob job") as I did not want to spend another 2 years healing from that.

Shame on you for your ignorance about cancer.*

2. I have said 5 billion times, DP/DR IS known to good psychiatrists and to neurologists. DP/DR can be created in someone using electrical stimulation during brain surgery when one must stay awake.

DP/DR occurs in migraine, epilsepsy, stroke, severe head trauma, taking certain antibiotics, taking other types of medications. We also know here that it can be triggered by Rec Drugs.

3. Because something is not fully understood does NOT mean that in the future there will be no cure, but the brain is so complex and difficult to analyze it is the most difficult to treat. And as I always say, AIDS has been around a long time ... there is no vaccine, but there is a vast improvement in terms of medical treatment that extends lives for decades. In the 1970s and 1980s that was a death sentence.

NO psychiatric disorder is the same for anyone. We are all individuals. Treatments of all kinds can be beneficial. Also rejecting treatment is an option. Many seriously ill individuals of all types do not respond to treatment at all and are disabled for life. Others respond very well to various forms of treatment.

Oh, re: my cancer. In 2004 ... only 6 years before my cancer diagnosis ..a new genetic test was developed. The oncotype. My tumor was sent to a lab and its genetic components were analyzed. That helped reveal the TYPE of cancer and what meds would best treat it. Meds could be targeted specifically for that cancer.

Please don't talk about what you don't know. And please understand that ALL of us have a different experience and a different way to recovery.

Also, I see a therapist more than a psychiatrist. I could refuse all of my psychiatric medication. The cost for a visit without insurnace is $400 which many people can't afford. The price for psychoanalysis is not even covered on insurance and said doctors charge ridicuous prices for treatment. I would guess that Colin Ross charges $400 a session.

Also, I read further about Colin Roas. He does publish for the American Psychiatric Association journal and is now researching anti-psycotic medication.

There are also a ton of reputable personal stories out there to read. And again, some are success stories, others not, and that would be true for EVERY illness there is.

This argument is ridiculous.


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

Every single person here should exhchange information without bashing someone else. We all find our own way.


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

King Elliott said:


> I wasn't going to reply to you but your calm and considered response made me rethink so thanks for that. I'm sorry for the kook comment.
> 
> Regarding your first paragraph, I would argue that none of it matters. If someone takes a medication and sees some subjective improvement, I would happily declare that a success. Are you aware of the very promising research into opiate receptor antagonists etc.? I think we are reaching a turning point where the psychiatric institution will start to be able to treat DP effectively in a large percentage of people. Having said that, none of it is a replacement for working on the psychological components of DP.
> 
> Peace.


And this makes sense. Also, no one said that therapy is useless, but it is not known to help in many cases. Medication doesn't help in many cases. Take a holistic path and say what works.


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## Freddy_Fred (Mar 4, 2015)

It was not my intention to spark up such a heated debate with my post. The extreme depression and dark thoughts are a result of the changes DP has caused in my life. Obviously. I still don't understand how, from one moment to the next, I lost my sense of self and DP completely changed my perception on the things I once loved and enjoyed. I don't get how thinking about violence and crude humor completely makes me shut down and cry. I don't get why I feel mentally and physically feeble to the point of being bed bound. Again, all this happened within minutes three months ago and it hasn't stopped.

Sorry for the complaining, but all of these symptoms and unanswered questions have been hard to deal with . Anyone who knows me would say I was a stand up guy before this happened. I'm sure the 50mg of Zoloft won't make DP go away, but if it can make the dark, horrible thoughts go away, I might consider it. This is coming from a alcohol and drug free, not even take an aspirin type of guy.


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## jvh18 (Feb 8, 2013)

*Dreamer* said:


> Every single person here should exhchange information without bashing someone else. We all find our own way.


Look, I COMPLETELY agree with you. If I came across as being aggressive its just because I'm passionate.

But you said this right after calling me ignorant and discrediting my own experience with cancer in my family...

You also criticize my arguments. I wasn't aware that this is an argument where one person will win and the other will lose, although you frame it as so. I am expressing my opinions because they are what I believe, I'm not trying to prop up a certain view point or win anything; this is just how I see the world. I agree we all find our own way, but this forum is a great tool because we do have something big in common. Its something that unifies all of us.



*Dreamer* said:


> Well, I think we're all still missing the point here.
> *1. Don't get ME started on cancer ... I am a four year and 7 month survivor of breast cancer. My aunt died of breast cancer in 1974.
> In 2010 when I got breast cancer there were SO many more advanced diagnostic tools, chemotherapy, surgical procedures ... I am far from alone in surviving cancer treatment.
> And no doctor will EVER tell me I am "cured" -- I am "in remission." In 1974, my aunt had about 2 choices for chemotherapy. Nowadays they tailor it to your type of cancer, gender, weight, age, etc.
> ...


Dealing with childhood cancer in my family and having it dominate 3 years of my life made me pretty informed, actually. But it is still just my experience and fully accept I do not know everything. But I know some things because I'm fairly intelligent and I have first hand experience in my life. I know it seems that I made generalizations in my post but you've all gotta stop taking everything so literally. I was just using it to make a point, because of course traditional cancer treatment works for many people.

I commend you for the courage and have the utmost of respect for you for dealing with cancer alongside mental health stuff, which I'm sure was very very hard. All I can speak about is a rare form of childhood bone cancer called osteo-sarcoma that effected my sister. Since you have much experience with cancer, you know that every cancer is very very different in how it is treated and with the success rate of drugs. What happened to my sister was she was treated with 4-5 different regiments of chemo with no effectiveness as they ravaged her body, they weren't effective in killing cancer cells. Oncologists have different regiments of chemo programs; if one doesn't work they go the next one.

Chemotherapy works for many many people and I never said I think it's horrible, but for some cancers it does not work. And even so it is the only treatment option available so people still use it, and of course there is the chance that it will still work. Maybe its left me bitter but I guess this is getting off topic.

My argument is simply to use cancer and other diseases to show sometimes doctors do not have the answers all the time. They are fallible people. You guys took my words too literally. I think it's still important to do research studies, but, doesn't poring over research material about DP/DR and trying to get at the root of what it is SOMETIMES make things worse? I fully believe people that completely identify with something like DP/DR CAN (not saying always) make it worse on themselves, because you start to make excuses about the position you're in. We all like to latch on to disorders or things wrong with us because it is likely true, but sometimes thinking of them as concrete illnesses (because the DSM said so) is counterproductive. All I'm saying is that if I tell myself I'm depressed, I tell myself I have Dp/Dr and research studies have said there is no known cure yet, that this language doesn't make ME feel any better. Everyone reacts to this differently, but that's my personal view on what helps me cope at the moment.

The fact is that Dp/Dr isn't cancer or aids. Very very far from it. And I feel like you should know this. While it has messed up so much in my life, it won't kill you. In my opinion, its a little dangerous clumping them together..


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

> The price for psychoanalysis is not even covered on insurance and said doctors charge ridicuous prices for treatment.


I can understand this, because psychoanalysis is pseudo-scientific and there is inconclusive evidence for it's efficacy.



> I think you'll be surprised just how many people will be helped by medication once selective kappa opiate receptor antagonists


We will see, because next year ALKS-5461 might become availabe.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2015)

TDX said:


> I can understand this, because psychoanalysis is pseudo-scientific and there is inconclusive evidence for it's efficacy.


Yeah right.. psychoanalysis is pseudo science.

The benefits of eating organic food - pseudo science

The benefits of drinking clean water - pseudo science

Chinese medicine - pseudo science

Homeopathic medicine - pseudo science

Herbal medicine - pseudo science

Meditation - pseudo science

Osteopathy - pseudo science

Intuition - pseudo science

and the list goes on and on&#8230;.

What you fail to recognise is millions of people throughout the world benefit from 'pseudo science' everyday. How can you possibly discount something b/c science hasn't yet gotten around to proving the efficacy of different treatments used worldwide for sometimes centuries? How arrogant.

Open you eyes. You've been fed lies.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2015)

I hope you are feeling better today than you have. I had DP/DR for several years and I have been free of this mental monster for just as long. And if it makes you feel any better- I did it all without any medications. It will probably never get worse than how you are feeling right now. You will have your good days, your bad days, and your really really bad days...but you will remain the same, strong person throughout it all. When that day finally comes and you realize you are no longer suffering from DP or DR, you will find that nothing about you has changed- at least not the good things! I was always a fun, outgoing and humorous person. The DP/DR took a toll on the best parts of my personality when it came about. My biggest fear was that, even if I overcome this, my life would never be the same. UNTRUE! If anything, I am happier now than I have ever been before. And yes, all without meds. You don't need em! If you'd like you can read my older post about how I was able to overcome DP/DR...lots of little tips and advice you can use here and there that will ultimately help you...even just a little bit...sometimes even a brief break from this can give you the hope and strength you need to carry on. Please do not think you are alone in this, and please do not for a second think that without SSRIs you cannot overcome this. Because you can, and you will. Much hope, encouragement, and love to you xoxo


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

*JVH18,* Very sorry. I read a portion of what you had written higher up the thread (quoted by someone else). I'm very sorry about your sister -- I didn't even see that. EDIT: I also know that some cancers are very agressive. My friend's husband died 2 years ago from cancer at age 52 ... some strange cancer that was known to have a very poor outcome. It was also difficult to diagnose. He did everything to stay alive for his family. Even experimental trials.

I don't know how, but he lived 3 more years when they thought he would live 3 months.
Cancer in children is so sad and so terrible.

It is also a passionate topic for me.

But I don't like extremes in either direction. I believe in a holistic approach, full well knowing that not everyone has the same outcome with ANY illness.
And if anything I prefer researchers to doctors ... they are two different groups of people. There is a huge effort in research of all kinds. And believe me, I don't believe in every researcher and have fired plenty of doctors -- all kinds.

I also don't "worship" the pharmaceutical companies ...

Well, bottom line, I have had a lot of physical and emotional problems in my life. Because of medicine I am indeed still alive. I could swear to you that a psychiatric medicine -- Klonopin -- AND THAT IS ONLY IN MY CASE -- kept me from suicide. And in my case, proper screening and treatment has kept me alive after a cancer diagnosis.

Even with being ecouraged by my doctors about the cancer none of them can say I won't get it again in the future -- even a different type. I simply have to live with that. Life is not fair. Humans are fallible. There ARE good professionals and bad in every profession in this world.

I use medication, excercise, diet, sleep, yoga, music, therapy, group therapy, volunteering, writing, taking classes, art ... I use all of these things to have a higher quality of life. I don't depend on any one thing. And I mainly have to live in the present. You don't know what will happen in the future. No one does.

I have to have a degree of faith as well as a degree of skepticism in any topic.

Also, *Freddy*, this is not your fault at all. These wild discussions do get out of hand. Sometimes I can't leave them alone.

I only wish that all of us have good lives and that one day none of have DP or any other condition that is so frightening and painful.
And I have knee jerk reactions here. I'm sorry.

Too tired to go on with this discussion!


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## jvh18 (Feb 8, 2013)

@dreamer

Thanks for the reply! Think I've just been having a rough day and kind of on an anti-corporate bend as of late which has made me agitated at big pharma/corporations/politicians and everything else haha. Even knowing dp won't kill you it still may be the most frustrating thing in the world, especially when you just get if because we all want answers and to get our lives back right away. The lack of straight forward answers and the confusing conflicting theories are just plain frustrating, because if you want to get better it's almost like, where do you turn as some theories to recover even contradict themselves.

I agree that even meds won't cure anything alone and meds along with the proper mindset along with relaxation exercise etc. is necessary.

Also sorry to op for derailing this thread but I think it just strikes a chord with many people because we can relate with wanting to find the best avenue to "recover".


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## Guest (May 2, 2015)

smellie said:


> You do realise that homeopathy is labelled psuedo-scientific because double-blind placebo-controlled studies have repeatedly shown homeopathic "medicine" to be utterly worthless, right?
> 
> The benefits of meditiation, on the other hand, actually are backed up by evidence so it doesn't deserve the label.
> 
> You don't appear to have done any research before posting this. I suppose that's consistent with your general approach to novel ideas though.


Read this and then shut up with your nonsense please.

http://www.homeopathyoz.org/images/news/Open_response_letter_by_AHA_to_NHMRC.pdf


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