# religous people...



## brandon is not taken

are for the most part totally insane.

I mean they are always talking about demons and angels and forces of good and evil. The stuff i hear them saying and see them typing is really fuking bonkers. How do they believe this stuff?


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## Guest

They need to believe or they "would/might" become insane. It's just an easy root to take when you ask the question "why"; "why are we here and what are we" ect ect... although maybe I should have just sticked to one simple answer... (Believe in one of the thousands of gods) although maybe I?m too smart for that (sorry for blowing my own trumpet).

What gets me is people who don't believe yet they just live a nice simple life... are they totally oblivion to the real deal?


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## suz

I'm not at all reigious but I do sort of believe in Angels. Not in the 'pretty lady in a white gown with wings and a harp' sense.

Just that there is a force of some sort that guides us through our lives.

I'm not bonkers but I'm getting there :wink:


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## Guest

Well of course you believe Suz... I'm your guardian angel 

(Aww i'm so cute aren't I? :twisted: )


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## Pollyanna 3098

you know what really annoys me is when people win something or make a 20 million dollars in business and say "I would like to thank god for making it all possible" I just find that so egotistical.

Like god helped you win millions, he/she thought "yep, I am going to give that person $20,000,000 and just not give a shit about all those starving kids etc etc. Give me a break, PLEASE!

3098


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## suz

Pollyanna 3098 said:


> you know what really annoys me is when people win something or make a 20 million dollars in business and say "I would like to thank god for making it all possible" I just find that so egotistical.
> 
> Like god helped you win millions, he/she thought "yep, I am going to give that person $20,000,000 and just not give a shit about all those starving kids etc etc. Give me a break, PLEASE!
> 
> 3098


*applauds*


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## CECIL

obsessivebrandon said:


> are for the most part totally insane.
> 
> I mean they are always talking about demons and angels and forces of good and evil. The stuff i hear them saying and see them typing is really fuking bonkers. How do they believe this stuff?


They aren't insane. They have their beliefs and you have yours. You have to respect their beliefs and vice versa.

As for the angels/demons thing - most of the world is still stuck in 3 dimensional thought patterns. We still believe in the world of dichotomies - good vs evil, black and white etc. etc. In time those boundaries will degrade


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## dreamingoflife

*obsessivebrandon wrote:

are for the most part totally insane.

I mean they are always talking about demons and angels and forces of good and evil. The stuff i hear them saying and see them typing is really fuking bonkers. How do they believe this stuff*

Not totally true i am religous and I don't go around all day talking about demons and angels I just believe what i what to and let others believe what they want.

People that throw religon in ones face or take it too an extreme sense i kinda wonder what the deal is and they get on my nerves because they make christians look bad when they try to force their beliefs on others.

As far as why do we christains believe this "stuff" as you worded it is just like asking you or anyone else who doesn't why you don't believe in God just something that you feel deep inside and no other person can change we are all Unique right down to our finger prints.

I don't usually participate in topics like this like why we christians believe the way we do because I don't want to seem like i am judging anyone or telling them what they believe is wrong even though i don't agree but I dunno I guess i was in the mood to debate lol 8)


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## Rozanne

Madness is a funny thing
You think you're sane
But it creeps in
Just as you point the finger straight
At others who you simply hate.


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## Rozanne

obsessivebrandon said:


> are for the most part totally insane.
> 
> I mean they are always talking about demons and angels and forces of good and evil. The stuff i hear them saying and see them typing is really fuking bonkers. How do they believe this stuff?


Dear Brandon, 
I don't wish to play devil's advocate (to your religion of normality), but how can you say something is mad without first defining madness? It isn't that I disagree that some people who believe in angels are unwell, but you are tarring everyone with the same brush. And the subject is actually a little more considered than you might give it credit for. People's ideas about angels and the devil are combination between their own psychological archtypes and experiences. If they are ill, then no doubt, it could be extremely odd to see the world in terms of good and bad forces. But if they are at peace and able to dissect everything with logical philosophical argument as well as listen to their intuition....I don't see how that could be considered bonkers necessarily.

It isn't a matter of intelligence or health, whether you believe in God or not. People of all different states of illness, social class, career and field believe in God for various different reasons. Amongst the religious community itself people have different opinions about what Angels are and whether Satan exists.

It makes sense to me that if I feel like a spiritual being (subjective opinion), that there _may_ be some type of self-actualisation process I can involve myself in. If there is such thing as spiritual self-actualisation - ie. that the very concept is not a delusion - then it would make sense that there existed Higher Beings. So that's why I am open to the possibility of Angels.

Rozanne


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## suz

I believe in Angels.

And I believe I'm bonkers.

I don't believe there is a link between the two though.

Blah, ignore me.


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## Rozanne

I believe in angels and I am either hypersane or mental...

The thing is that if you have subtle experiences and you say you are not ill, you will automatically be categorised as mentally ill - if only because you do not think you are ill. Whereas if you go into the doctor's office and spend 30 minutes blahing and sobbing over your being ill, they will say, you are obviously fine!

It's something I am quite interested in. Personally I think the following should be taken into account when judging if someone is ill or not:

- Do they say their outlook is the truth, or are they accepting of ambiguity? For instance, seeing lights and accepting it may be a hullucination without meaning.

- Is the person at peace?

- How much does the person confuse the gross world with the subtle world?

- Is the belief-system paranoid in anyway?

-----

Therefore I have to admit I think believing in negative forces such as devil's is quite unhealthy. I believe in unclean spirits but am reading a book on Satan at the moment, where the author is pretty slow to agree that Satan is a personified being. The idea is that Satan is probably more a corruption of the world....that's my belief anyway. It's more Buddhist. Although Buddhists believe in devils as well. I can't remember what they're called...nevermind.


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## dreamingoflife

*CECIL wrote:*They aren't insane. They have their beliefs and you have yours. You have to respect their beliefs and vice versa.

Well put cecil.


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## CECIL

piRsq. said:


> The thing is that if you have subtle experiences and you say you are not ill, you will automatically be categorised as mentally ill - if only because you do not think you are ill.


Yep that's one thing that sticks in my craw a little bit too. By a psych's definition I am probably completely off my rocker  But "insane" is really just a label given to people who don't fit the "normal" one.

However at some seminars I've been going to recently I've learned that even mental health issues are looked at differently to how I thought. For example, drugs are generally considered a negative factor in someone's life. However you can take drugs occaisionally and be perfectly fine. Its only when they start interfering with other parts of your life that they are considered a problem.

Once again, it all comes down to balance.


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## Rozanne

I am generally against drugs, but agree it isn't black and white.


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## CECIL

It can apply to anything really. If you believe in God, angels and devils then clinically you are delusional. But its only considered a problem if those beliefs have a negative impact on your life. If you were too afraid to go out of your house because Satan might find you, then that would be considered a harmful belief. But if your life is enhanced by loving everyone unconditionally, then that's considered a positive benefit.


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## Guest

*CECIL*, don't you think the same could be said about drugs?


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## Rozanne

CECIL said:


> It can apply to anything really. If you believe in God, angels and devils then clinically you are delusional. But its only considered a problem if those beliefs have a negative impact on your life. If you were too afraid to go out of your house because Satan might find you, then that would be considered a harmful belief. But if your life is enhanced by loving everyone unconditionally, then that's considered a positive benefit.


Loving everyone should be considered delusional...it's definately not normal anyway.

That's the problem with psychiatry and normalcy worship. It throws the baby out with the bath water.


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## CECIL

Darren said:


> *CECIL*, don't you think the same could be said about drugs?


Pretty sure I already said that about drugs.



> Loving everyone should be considered delusional...it's definately not normal anyway.


Yes that's right, which is why I say "Fuck you!" to "normal"


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## Rozanne

I love people but their ideas suck. Sorry but I just cannot stand the world people have created.


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## suz

CECIL said:


> Yes that's right, which is why I say "flower* you!" to "normal"


Ooooh, I think Cecil may 'get me'


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## Guest

CECIL said:


> Pretty sure I already said that about drugs.


Say hello to dyslexia and it's effects on my short term memory :roll:


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## CECIL

Lol that's ok Darren  Personally I have been addicted to drugs before (Only pot though) and it was very hard to stop the habit. They did cause a problem in my life and I could identify that and change it. Now I only smoke occaisionally so they don't cause problems for me at all.



piRsq. said:


> I love people but their ideas suck. Sorry but I just cannot stand the world people have created.


The world is in a pretty crappy place right now, but I feel like it is poised to change in a big way. What helps me is "looking inside" people and trying to find the reasons they are the way they are. If I can understand the reasons they hold those particular beliefs then I can accept them for who they are.

Everything is motivated for love of something. Even Hitler was motivated by love (Love for his country and his ideals), even though some of his actions were very hateful. Sorry to Godwin the thread


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## medo

obsessivebrandon said:


> are for the most part totally insane.
> 
> I mean they are always talking about demons and angels and forces of good and evil. The stuff i hear them saying and see them typing is really fuking bonkers. How do they believe this stuff?


If you've seen what I saw you'd believe in demons too. But if I told ya, you wouldn't believe me.


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## Rozanne

Some people say Hitler was kundalini awoken but I find that hard to believe.

As for what he did.....it wasn't just _some_ of it which was hateful ... :?

I can understand people flying off the handle for - killing in the heat of the moment - but _planning_ the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of people, _building the infrastructure_ necessary to do it and getting ordinary men to torture, enslave and murder Jews every day of the week in another matter altogether.

What really scares me is when you see pictures of those massive red ships they built with the swastikas on the side....a symbol of dominance and power...all in the name of destruction. To think of people designing, creating, crafting those ships....all in the name of evil. It scares the shit out of me what people are capable of, to be honest.


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## Pablo

medo said:


> If you've seen what I saw you'd believe in demons too. But if I told ya, you wouldn't believe me.


Tell us anyway, I like stories about demons


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## Rozanne

I don't believe in demons...then again I really don't want to believe in them. In fact, just writing about it makes me feel negative. I'd rather focus on the positive side of life and existance.


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## CECIL

Demons only have power over you if you are afraid of them. Confront them, look them in the eye and bring them into the light - suddenly they aren't so powerful afterall


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## suz

piRsq. said:


> I can understand people flying off the handle for - killing in the heat of the moment - but _planning_ the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of people, _building the infrastructure_ necessary to do it and getting ordinary men to torture, enslave and murder Jews every day of the week in another matter altogether.


Hitler was obviously a very ill/sick person. I find it hard to believe that he was born a tyrant; therefore I have to wonder what happened in his life to cause him to become the person he did... it must have been something terrible. I sort of pity him in some weird, twisted way. Same with Mr Hussain, what happened to these people?

But on the other side I guess it could be argued that we're not all born filled with sweetness and light. Maybe it's fauly wiring, I just don't know. But I pity the people who hold such awful beliefs, because they are missing out on so much of what makes this world a beautiful place to be.

It's very sad *hugs tyrants all over the world in the hope it will make them lovely*


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## medo

Pablo said:


> medo said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you've seen what I saw you'd believe in demons too. But if I told ya, you wouldn't believe me.
> 
> 
> 
> Tell us anyway, I like stories about demons
Click to expand...

Why do you like those stories when you dont believe in devils? Does it entertain you as watching a cartoon?


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## CECIL

Because its interesting to hear other people's experiences and to try and understand them better.


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## Pablo

medo said:


> Pablo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> medo said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you've seen what I saw you'd believe in demons too. But if I told ya, you wouldn't believe me.
> 
> 
> 
> Tell us anyway, I like stories about demons
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why do you like those stories when you dont believe in devils? Does it entertain you as watching a cartoon?
Click to expand...

I dont believe in devils but none of my views are set in stone that I cant be convinced to think otherwise as I realise I dont understand half the stuff that goes on in the world, I respect other peoples experiences even if they dont make sense to me so someones experiences with devils and demons would be very interesting. Are you going to let us know what happened?


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## Rozanne

I'm quite interested to know now. What's the difference between a devil and an unclean spirit for instance?


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## Martinelv

> They aren't insane. They have their beliefs and you have yours. You have to respect their beliefs and vice versa.


True. They aren't insane; in the same way that sociapaths are not truely insane. Religious people just have a psychopathological virus, and sociopaths have no conscience.

And why do you have to respect their beliefs? Doesn't respect have to be earnt Cecil?


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## Rozanne

How sad....your signature makes my heart pang.

That's what religion's about, not sentimentality: spirit.

I don't believe I have a virus, although if there was a virus that could makes you love God, that would be fantastic.


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## Guest

> I don't believe I have a virus, although if there was a virus that could makes you love God, that would be fantastic.


R, I hear people use the word GOD all the time, I am just curious as to how you see god.

Greg


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## Guest

Don't worry, I just read your post in the (The Blasphemy Challenge) thread.

Greg


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## CECIL

Martinelv said:


> They aren't insane. They have their beliefs and you have yours. You have to respect their beliefs and vice versa.
> 
> 
> 
> True. They aren't insane; in the same way that sociapaths are not truely insane. Religious people just have a psychopathological virus, and sociopaths have no conscience.
> 
> And why do you have to respect their beliefs? Doesn't respect have to be earnt Cecil?
Click to expand...

Well for starters I don't even believe in the term "insane". Or rather, "insane" only means that you don't fit the normal mould that our culture expects you to. Yes, that even goes for Schizophrenics, but that's another story.

Personally I don't feel that respect has to be earned. By default I respect every person I meet. I tend not to be judgemental either. If someone does something I don't agree with, I don't hold it against them but I try to get an understanding of where they are coming from. If the difference isn't reconcilable, I walk away and don't see them anymore, because it doesn't affect me. Pretty simple, really.


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## Rozanne

I see God as:
Indiscriminantly all loving...the source of all things....beyond the mind and conceptualisation...unconditional...and beautiful. I see God as the Buddha-mind however more "positive" than the word emptiness suggests. On that point I find the idea of the Christian "God of Love" as more....positive and helpful. I guess I see the experience of God as knowing the self as the spirit, a sense of purpose in your life and doing good generally, of recognising the Divine as the source of all things...and a reason to love other people without question....

....I try not to transfer idealism onto the world. There is such thing as ill-will. You have to take care of yourself....and try not sacrifice integrity or be slaves to negative philosophies that are either not true or actually designed to take awareness away from the Divine connection that each person potentially has (on this point, I'm sorry but I just don't believe Jesus the teacher was the only way, I see that as a representative point, perhaps his teachings as the only way to God).

I guess this all seems very convenenient...and all I would say to that is that in this conditional world of misery the heart longs for a sense of completeness and that is what drives it in the direction of God. If it weren't for the bad things that happened to us we wouldn't ever formulate the possibility of there being something worth striving for that somehow transcended our current condition. At the very least, God is what the imagination contrives as a universal/power source of good. Even if that is all God is...that is still a pretty powerful concept and you have to wonder if a person could conceive that at all if there were not such a reality out there.

I think love is about:

Connecting to the authentic self
Connecting honestly with others
Connecting to the sense of there being a source of all the life we see about us.

Connection to the Divine...

That's what I think anyway. I don't like to talk about things in the context of a discussion without being able to make a logical point. So I suppose I would say that:

-It's obvious we are all connected in one way or another and share the world.
-The universe is here - Why?! Where did come from?! If perchance there exists something outside of the universe which hasn't form then that is what I would call love...unconditional.

I don't see what the difference is between the carbon atom in myself and in another person...therefore I assume physical matter is somehow "equal"...but that exists is form, with various measures of:

- integrity
- harmony
- wholeness
(to quote Aquinus?)

I guess I see faith as a matter of extrapolation, I admit it.

Not a problem though because I feel so much happier for it.


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## JaoDP123

What I read in this thread are trite atheist talking points. Please contribute something I haven't heard and refuted a thousand times over.


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## Fant?me

lol? Atheism has never been refuted, only challenged. EVOLVE DAMN YOU.


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## Rozanne

The same goes for theism...grow up :lol: Only joking. It's just funny how both sides think they are more evolved than the other.

God is the great unseen, we are merely observing a painting. That is all science is, observation. It says nothing of the process of creation. In that respect, atheism is a little uninspired. If you don't see the creator behind the "things" you aren't likely to see the self behind the fascade.

Evolution is finding the unseen in yourself and experiencing it. Then you get to understand the theology a bit. Not as fact or a substitute for science (the observation of nature) but as logical in a dream-like sense.


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## JaoDP123

~Rozanne~ said:


> If you don't see the creator behind the "things" you aren't likely to see the self behind the fascade.


Quite literally. If the empiricism is the only way in which we look at life we have no choice but to relinquish our sense of self. If science does explain our conscious using sub-atomic and molecular interactions, our free will and concept of self is an illusion. In that case 'we' are nothing but the product of matter set in motion from the beginning, our thought and actions were already pre-destined to happen. This causal determinism does not allow for a free will.

Listen to what Richard Dawkins has to say about freedom of the will, "I am quite prepared to believe that when I think I've taken the decision -- when I FEEL that I, with my own free will, have exercised a free choice, I've decided to do one thing rather than another -- I've decided to immigrate or decided not to immigrate, or to buy this house rather than that house -- it FEELS like free will. But it's perfectly possible that actually my decision to immigrate or not to immigrate was influenced by events in the brains which were influenced by other events, influenced by other events, which fundamentally all have a definite physical cause."


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## Rozanne

Intriguing. I know a man who is a monist theist and also believes in this first cause. If you ask him why he got up this morning, he said the first cause: God!

And Einstein was a determinist...

Interesting. This has renewed my interest in the idea of the logo/Logos that we are mini-creators.

But then I'm getting confused because channelling creatively from another source is in fact a passive experience.

??

Does anyone have an answer to this paradox? It is something I have been thinking about. Being spiritual to some people means more autonomy but also more surrender.

In theory autonomy from the things that usually enslave a person (re: Buddhism, attachments), but then surrender to a higher force.

I'm confused.

Determinism is a horrible thought anyway....how anyone can live like that, I do not know.

Could you not prove to yourself that you had autonomy by doing something out of the blue?!


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## brandon is not taken

Really, how could einstein be anything but a determinist?

If you are a scientist you believe that our universe stays true to physical laws. If the universe is to always follow these laws, there is only one possible outcome.

Here is a limited example. Newtons 1st law of kinematics states an object will travel at contant velocity when not effected by an external force.

Even from that limited example you can see that everything is predetermined from the initial state of the universe. This is prevalent through all scientific disciplines. The initial state determines the final state. To reject this is to reject all of science.


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## brandon is not taken

~Rozanne~ said:


> Could you not prove to yourself that you had autonomy by doing something out of the blue?!


No. Nothing at all. There is no way to prove this. However, it seem plausible to prove determinism (or at least make a strong argument) by showing that proof of personal autonomy is nonexistant.


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## JaoDP123

"God does not play dice" - Einstein was definetly a determinist

I've heard that the Uncertainty Principle combined with the butterfly effect is a real determinism killer though.

I guess we can't predict the speed and location of a particle at the same time or so something in nature is entirely random and can trigger a series of events with random origins. That is my understanding anyhow ...

If the Uncertainty Principle is proved false.... and the world really is just cause and effect.... wtf How could we hold a murderer responsible for something he/she was destined to do? Determinism is a shitty concept to ponder.


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## brandon is not taken

JaoDP123 said:


> I guess we can't predict the speed and location of a particle at the same time or so something in nature is entirely random and can trigger a series of events with random origins. That is my understanding anyhow ...


Nice point. I'll have to think about that a little and post a reply when i get home from school.


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## CECIL

brandon is not taken said:


> Here is a limited example. Newtons 1st law of kinematics states an object will travel at contant velocity when not effected by an external force.


Yet sadly Newton's ideas are far outdated now and have almost no bearing on our life in the current.

Examples to prove my point:
TV exists.
Radio exists.
Nuclear bombs exists (Radiation).

Now I'll give you he may be technically right. But nothing is ever in a vacuum. There's no object that won't be affected by an external source anywhere.


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## brandon is not taken

Umm, newtons laws are not outdated or obsolete whatsoever. I have no idea where you are getting that from. Newtons calculus and physical laws are just as relevant now as they ever were. Of course einstien modified some of his laws with relativistic principles, but newtons laws still hold true.

I dont know how you can say "newtons laws have no bearing on our life" Apparently you never studied science or math?

I also have no idea how your "examples" prove your point at all. The existance of television disproves newtons laws of kinematics???? Please explain that one...


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## Rozanne

I did physics at A-level (and got an A) but admit to not knowing enough to really argue on the subject philosophically.

Wouldn't the random decomposition of atoms show that there is no pattern at some level?

Is tt called Nuclear fission? See I can't even rememeber but I am interested to get my head around it a little bit.

One thing I would like to add here on a philosophical point is that some believe the inner work of gurus is some kind of spiritual equivalent to the work done in labs. It's an interesting concept, and relies on concept of being able to find an internal objective "truth". This is an idea that introverted-feeler type personalities would be more willing to take on because their feelings may appear to follow some causal pattern. (Feeling is a rational function Jung said).

I believe in creativity, for experiential reasons, and in a way I trust my experiences more than intellectual reasoning.

The only thing with trusting experience more is that I can only ever say "I don't know if it is true, however..."

Like Dawkin's says: it* feels *like I can choose.

You say that can't be tested - I guess not.

I have another way of looking at things which has come about since I went to a lecture on Creationism. It isn't that I believe in the traditional creationists view - not at all - but I found it interesting when the lecturer Stu Burgess I think his name was - designer/engineer of space stations - said that in order for there to be a selection of "things" to choose from, the things must have come into existance ie. been created.

It led me to believe there was a force "outside" of the physical world which had some input into its manifestation. From then on I was willing to believe in creativity. Not as a conscious thought out process, but as a random thing. I know it sounds absurd...like saying the rain is caused by a God of rain. But suddenly I saw everything as arising out of something. Although rising out of the earth...the earth doesn't really have a mind. Unless it does of course. 

This is where I have to admit I may have been a bit of a fool. I'm just being honest for the sake of sharing.

It was when I was speaking with a friend of mine that I saw there are many problems with arguing for something other than the physical.

Emotions are an interesting thing to consider in this respect. By using your conscious mind you are able to influence your emotional life - that is acknowledged in the use of CBT. Neuroscentists are willing to concede that therapy has a construct effect on parts of the brain.

Perhaps that is just another form of cause and effect. But the mind seems a bit less material than the body to me. It feels that way. 

Anyway, it's an interesting debate.


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## CECIL

brandon is not taken said:


> Umm, newtons laws are not outdated or obsolete whatsoever. I have no idea where you are getting that from. Newtons calculus and physical laws are just as relevant now as they ever were. Of course einstien modified some of his laws with relativistic principles, but newtons laws still hold true.
> 
> I dont know how you can say "newtons laws have no bearing on our life" Apparently you never studied science or math?
> 
> I also have no idea how your "examples" prove your point at all. The existance of television disproves newtons laws of kinematics???? Please explain that one...


Yes I've studied maths and science. I never did physics past High School though. Still, Newtonian physics is solely concerned with "solid", physical components. Atoms spin around each other and make up molecules. Molecules bump into each other and the world goes around.

As you noted Einstein updated Newton's laws with his own findings. But basically in Newton's time they had little idea that there were non-physical forces that affected the physical (besides gravity I guess). i.e. Waves, fields, radiation.

Television and radio both work on the principle that there are phenomena out there that we as humans aren't able to observe unless we use intruments. That is, radio waves, electronic fields and so forth. So perhaps I should have said that Newton's physics don't tell nearly the whole story and his ideas aren't as relevant to our modern technology as they once were.

Now in high level physics scientists are discovering that the universe is holographic and that everything is connected. This is groundbreaking news for science, but something that spiritual disciplines have known since the dawn of time.

It takes a while for those discoveries to filter down into the general public though, which is why people's mindset is still somewhat stuck in 3D space (i.e. Newtonian physics prevails even now). In the coming years I think we'll see people's awareness expanded further and becoming more aware of phenomena outside of 3D space.


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