# Question about science and dissociative disorders



## Guest (Jun 12, 2014)

At this moment in time&#8230;. What has the scientific community offered in regards to treating dissociative disorders? Any thoughts?

I know they have a medical definition of what the dissociative disorders are, and there's a lot of research going on&#8230; but how has science actually helped people recover from the dissociative disorders?

I'd like to leave the future hopes of science out of this discussion, b/c who really knows what's going to happen and when?

Be great to hear your views&#8230; thanks.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2014)

The scientific community has given us tools that doctors use to test for, and diagnose dissociative disorders.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

I think that the best thing for disassociative disorders is extensive psychotherapy.

While medicine does a fair job at reducing the symptoms associated with disassociative disorders, psychotherapy would help restore the missing link between the person and their body which in turn could possibly reduce symptoms altogether without antidepressants


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2014)

Doesn't look like the world of science has got too much to offer people suffering from dissociative disorders&#8230;.

Maybe it's time to look beyond science?


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

Again, why eliminate any possiblity in treating any disorder (I don't care what it is)? You treat the entire person. You come to it with a holistic approach. Science serves a critical purpose, and so does therapy and other approaches.

I've said this before and I have to say it again, coming up on 4 years a cancer survivor.

1. Science re: cancer research improved my chance of survival from everything to early detection, genetic analysis of my tumor, seeing if I had the mutated breast cancer gene (I don't). A test of the genetic makeup of my tumor which only was put into use 10 years ago in 2004 -- helped my oncologist analyze the cancer to determine its agressiveness. Because it was determined it was not an aggressive cancer I was spared chemotherapy.

Chemotherapy can kill you.

2. In terms of dealing with this psychologically. It was terrifying. Devastating. But I was also offered services of many kinds to help me cope through the entire process. I NEEDED a support group with other cancer patients. We talked about everything from relationships after cancer, to diet and exercise. We were given nutritional instruction. I was encouraged to go to yoga, meditate, reduce stress.

Also, medications you must take (I have one I must take for 5 years) can *cause* depression. Some people who have never experienced depression in their lives are stunned that such feelings of hopelessness and despair can exist. When given an antidepressant they are much improved. Without it, a good number of individuals diagnosed with cancer have committed suicide unecessarily.

*It is clear that treating the entire patient, body and mind often yields a better outcome and improves quality of life.*

This is true of DP/DR as it is of AIDS.

I am still not sure why there is a need to eliminate science from the equation, any more than it is to eliminate Faith if someone has religious faith. Use every tool you can. And there is more and more reserach into DP/DR, but it is not considered one of the major mental illnesses -- schizophrenia, bipolar, clinical depression -- all of which completely disable individuals, keep them from working, having relationships, and ending up in hospitals, jails, or homeless. Or they hurt themselves or others.

I wish some people here would be open to reading some books on the brain that I have posted numerous times:

1. V.S. Ramachandran's "A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness"/"Phantoms in the Brain"
2. Oliver Sacks' "The Man Who Mistook HIs Wife For a Hat"/"Hallucinations"
3. Rick Hanson's "Buddha's Brain"

These are case studies of individuals with various neurological brain disorders. . They illustrate how complex the brain is, and again, how one must consider the entire human being even in treating a life threatening neurological illness.

There is no reason to eliminate one approach or another. Find the path that works best for you.

I have found everything from meds, psychotherapy, group therapy, exercise, improving my diet -- more healthy eating, using supplements, buddhist mindfulness, yoga and my own version of meditation to help me. The combination is what has helped me, not one thing alone.

I was abused. But there is also much mental illness in my family -- including both of my parents.
Nature/Nurture. No doctor will tell you that these can be separated. My psychiatrist acknowledges my own personal predispositions as well as the abuse I endured. She is very aware of how both contributed to the way I am today -- yet underneath all of the problems, I still have me. I have never lost myself.

Life is a journey. Life is growing and learning. Being open to all possibilities.

I wish some people here could interact with others in a group support setting. One for ANY illness, for emotinal issues, or alcoholics anonymous for that matter. Listen to what has worked for others, try it if you wish, or not. Don't close any doors.

Use what works for you and don't judge another's approach. How is someone else's approach hurting YOU particularly? Or anyone else? No one is forcing any approach down anyone's throat. That is what I don't understand re: eliminating one thing over another. Educate yourself and find your best treatment plan -- make your own choices..


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

And I hate to correct someone ... but it is di-sso-ciative disorder, not dis-ASSO-ciative disorder.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2014)

Thanks Dreamer, but I really wanted to get some feedback on just 'the science world and the dissociative disorders'.


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

Oh, I'm not quite clear what you mean. In other words what type of research is ongoing now?


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

As an example of the extensive research going on ... I just plugged in depersonalization derealization disorder into Pubmed. Ignoring the random "burnout" titles -- the layperson referference to depersonalization in the workplace -- I came up with @600 medical research articles.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=depersonalization+derealization+disorder&cmd=DetailsSearch

Dr. Mauricio Sierra's book "Depersonalization: A New Look At A Neglected Syndrome" is the most comprehensive, and the first medical textbook on DP/DR. It is packed with research.

Here is also a brief research history I put together on my website:

http://www.dreamchild.net/DPD%20History/dpdhistory.html

(The beginnings of research were in the 1800s) ...

It is interesting that before Freud, DP/DR was seen early on by the French as a neurological disorder. Freud viewed it as a defense mechanism. He also experienced it himself.


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

PS, when looking at PubMed, look to the right side of each page. There are articles associated with the topic. So a main search leads to other searches and you can bookmark the articles of interst to you. The research goes back in time generally with the end of the list being older articles (1960s/1970s). Always best to review various current articles. 2012-2014 as research is out of date by the time it goes to press. All medical research.

Nite.


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2014)

Thanks Dreamer.. I'm just spending time reading some articles.

That's really interesting about Freud calling DP/DR a defence mechanism. Right on the money from what I've been told! And that was sooo long ago too&#8230;


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

*Dreamer* said:


> Again, why eliminate any possiblity in treating any disorder (I don't care what it is)? You treat the entire person. You come to it with a holistic approach. Science serves a critical purpose, and so does therapy and other approaches.
> 
> I've said this before and I have to say it again, coming up on 4 years a cancer survivor.
> 
> ...


.... I wasn't trying to shove my opinion down anyone's throat ...


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

Jurgen said:


> .... I wasn't trying to shove my opinion down anyone's throat ...


I didn't say you were. Perhaps I was responding broadly. As I said, using all tools available to us makes most sense to me.
Not arguing, just stating my POV.

Also, I think there is a misconception that research will immediately yield a cure ... for anything. This isn't true. There are so many medical disorders with decades of research that have not been figured out.

With many medical disorders in this day and age, management and improved quality of life and extension of life are the fruits of scientific research. There is no cure for diabetes, cancer, AIDS, Parkinsons, Arthritis, COPD ... it goes on and on. But science as brought us a long way in diagnosis, treatment and longevity -- living with these problems. The same with mental issues.

There is no cure for any mental disorder I'm aware of. No medication has ever been touted as a cure.
I just seem to come across that misconception a lot.

Cheers.


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2014)

There's a lot of research there. I don't think I read anything that wasn't based on trialling medication? Over the years I've read quite a few articles like those.. and they don't seem to offer much hope. The figures are generally seem pretty low when it comes to improvement of patients. That seems very odd to me b/c there's also a lot of therapists out there who successfully treat people with DD's.

Years ago a psychiatrist told me, there is no medication that can help reduce dissociation. I took that as the truth, b/c she'd specialised in treating people with DD's for over 20 years.. So that left me wondering.. What has the science based community done that helps treat people right here right now?

Dreamer about the AIDS virus. The virus is killed on contact with lemon juice. An Australian professor discovered this about 10 years ago. I saw an interview with him back then.. After this discovery his funding was removed. As he said "you can't put a patent on a lemon. There's no money in it" Say no more. Here's an article on him.

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/enoughrope/transcripts/s832834.htm


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

Dr B said:


> Lots of drugs, treatments and meds can induce or suppress dissociation. Psychiatrists are not necessarily scientists and so will not necessarily be aware of the advancements in brain science. These are NOT cures. They manipulate the background state of the brain and have impact on experience.
> 
> The old 'science is only in it for the money' line is boring, tiresome and untrue. Drug companies do not represent all of science.


Agree. *No one has EVER said there are cures for mental illness (with medication or anything else) *and psychiatrists are indeed not researchers. Also, there are many articles about the use of DBT, CBT, and many other options besides medication in those posted articles.

*And re: the US cost of health care IN GENERAL* is due to a problem with 3rd party insurance. Not just medication but procedures and supplies are way over-priced for reasons I won't go into.

I have had surgery where (if you will excuse me) I was billed $15 for a feminine product. Could not bring my own into the hospital. On the other hand all the medicaitons I'm on now are generic (no longer under patents) and cost about $1.50 for a 90 day supply. Many companies also assist with medication costs if an individual's income is low/they are on disability, etc.

Hopefully Obamacare and a gradual move to the Canadian system will help thngs out, but technology has advanced so much, the population lives so much longer, and so many other factors there are serious problems in the West save certain more homogeneous countries such as Sweden. Mental health care here in the US and other Western countries overall is not covered much at all. This is the greatest travesty of all countries. Mental health care is at the bottom

*Re: AIDS. There are medical studies on citrus juice in Pubmed -- it is encouraged in third world countries as a PREVENTIVE measure, not curative.*

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1609406/



> "HIV infection is the greatest health crisis in human history. It continues to spread unchecked among the poor in the developing world because we have failed to design simple preventative methods that are available and affordable to those living on under $2 a day."
> 
> Philos Trans R Soc Lond B Biol Sci. May 29, 2006; 361(1469): 811-820.
> Published online Feb 3, 2006. doi: 10.1098/rstb.2005.1781
> ...


-----------------------------------
As far as Freud is concerned, he died in 1939. That is a long time back. He was a neurologist. Many of his theories still seem to stand up, but not in terms of many disorders such as the treatment of schizoprhenia, bipolar, clinical depression, etc., etc., etc. Oddly enough he even stated that the Id, Ego, and Superego might have neurological underpinnings in the brain that would be discovered in the future.

Also, the word hysteria came from the concept that women with "nervous troubles" had a wandering uterus. Obviously that is not only insulting but complete garbage.
-----------------------------------
I have had psychoanalysis (in the 1980s). I have also had many other forms of therapy. But Klonopin in 1987 saved me from killing myself, and was given to me by a psychiatrist who is a member of the ISSMPD (at the time) now the ISSD-T. He knew what DP/DR were. He noted he had seen success in using Klonopin (clonazepam) and recommended it for me.

Again. In my case I have not eliminated any possiblity. What anyone does is anyone's choice -- and that is true of any procedure any doctor performs on you from surgery to medication for arthritis.
-----------------------------------
The internet is a wonderful thing, and also full of a LOT of misinformation. Also, I was not able to begin to understand medical articles, or even Scientific American without schooling in Chemistry, Biology and even Physics in High School and at the college level (and that was back in the 1980s and much of what I learned is out of date -- hence I do continuing education). Same with psychology where in one class I was assigned one semester to visiting the last inmates at Ypsi State Hospital (the women's ward) which was shut down shortly after I graduated and moved out of state -- not sure when. These women were seriously ill and had nowhere else to go. (The males in my class visited the men's ward.)

We were each assigned to spend time 3 hours a week with one woman. Without that institution, they would have been homeless or dead. I'm no fan of institutions, but in the US the largest "mental institution" is now the LA County Jail which offers no mental health services. The US and many contries have dropped the ball on this issue and hundreds of thousands of people never get any help -- ever.


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

Also, we know that AIDS is transmitted by the sharing of blood. The preventive measures use by two men (with citrus) probably are not going to be as effective as using a condom. Using dirty needles for drug use -- won't work. For those who got AIDS through blood transfusions ... this is AFTER the fact. We are talking about prevention not a cure.

But research continues. I was a college student when I first became aware of AIDS. I knew of many young people who died from it by the age of 30. Nowadays many are living a long time with it -- with medications that were developed by research. And how in the world does one think the HIV virus was implicated in AIDS (originally called GRID -- Gay Related Immune Deficiency -- oops) -- scientific research!


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2014)

Andrea44 said:


> lol Yes, a lemon or orange isn't going to cut it in terms of prevention.


If you'd bothered to read the article about what this professor uncovered.. Lemons WERE 'cutting it' in terms of prevention. He found dramatically lower rates of HIV infection in Laos, even though countries around Laos had high rates of infection. The women in Laos had traditionally used lemon juice in douce's after sex as a form birth control not realising it was killing the aids virus on contact..

I simply relayed what he said. There's no talk about a 'cure', just how lemons did have a preventative quality.


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2014)

Dr B said:


> Lots of drugs, treatments and meds can induce or suppress dissociation. Psychiatrists are not necessarily scientists and so will not necessarily be aware of the advancements in brain science. These are NOT cures. They manipulate the background state of the brain and have impact on experience.
> 
> The old 'science is only in it for the money' line is boring, tiresome and untrue. Drug companies do not represent all of science.


I don't know why everyones talking about 'cures'.. That's not what I said anywhere on this thread. I've talked about treating people and helping them heal from dissociative disorders and I've asked where has the research helped?

The fact that my ex psychiatrist is not a scientist, doesn't really mean anything as far as I can see in this discussion. Sure, she may not have been completely up to date with research, but she surely was 'right up there' with advancements in treatment and medication (lack of). Twice a year she flew halfway around the globe heading to conferences, often conferences dedicated to dissociation. I saw her for 2 years all up.

There's something missing in this puzzle of treating DD''s as far as I can see.. Bucket loads of research have been carried out for decades (if not a century), so no doubt there's a good understanding of what it is and where it comes from.. but what good has any of that been when it comes to actually treating people? Like I said, there ARE therapists out there who have a very good working knowledge of working with people to heal their DD's.. Why aren't they the 'go to' healers instead of the poorly informed self confessed 'experts'?

I think one thing this forum needs is a database with a list of specialist therapists for DD's. Therapy should be seen as the first line of treatment to begin if people are experiencing overwhelming dissociation, but it's often not even talked about. I know meds have a place, but they don't heal people from DD's. Therapy can.

I wish someone could tell me why are the docs, GP's and psychiatrists and hospitals very often are poorly informed and make poor choices in treatment plans when there's been so much research done for so long? I don't think you can deny that's happening. I read it all too often on this site alone and have experienced it time and time again on my healing journey.. In fact if and when need to talk to medical folk about what's going on for me, if I detect they have very little idea about what I'm talking about, I end the conversation asap and will rarely take their 'advice'.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not anti science at all (take note Andrea).. I'm very wary sometimes though particularly with medical science, and to me, there's nothing wrong with that. When I hear things like Professor Roger Short (lemon- aids virus article) saying "my funding has been cut".. For sure I'm going wonder why, and ask questions. I think that's a healthy thing to do.


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

Philos said:


> Don't get me wrong here. I'm not anti science at all (take note Andrea).. I'm very wary sometimes though particularly with medical science, and to me, there's nothing wrong with that. When I hear things like Professor Roger Short (lemon- aids virus article) saying "my funding has been cut".. For sure I'm going wonder why, and ask questions. I think that's a healthy thing to do.


Philos from the link you gave:

Andrew Denton: "Extraordinary. I'm going to ask a question without notice here - how much government funding do you get?"

Roger Short: "None."

*Short's funding wasn't "cut", he never got any.* Why, I don't know. Much research funding for EVERYTHING is turned down, for a lot of reasons. As I noted in the PubMed article, lemon for AIDS prevention, IS obvioulsy funded as have been many other studies. As Dr. B. noted, you seem to imply that there is something nefarious going on here. A reason to "stop research" into alternative approaches (in this case in AIDS prevention/control) because of "Big Pharma." I responded to that.

Roger Short did not get attention, but others did.

The other statement re: why is nothing going on with DP research... or perhaps why hasn't it yielded anything yet after all this time ... many reasons I'm too tired to go into, but one of the most obvious is that this is true of all brain disorders. Really major advances in brain research have been dependent on the advancement of technology, on post-mortem examination of sick and healthy brains, on the Genome project.

I guess I'll step out of this discussion. Research is going on. It is going to take a lot of time to understand ALL OF THE BRAIN. It takes decades to understand medicine. For example, I have IBS (I have so damned many problems I could scream). I saw my doctor today. A new medication has come out ... just in the past few years for treating this. But for example, he doesn't want me to go on the medication as it is stystemic vs. working on diet ... there is a special diet I will be trying (very controlled and strict). As far as my breast cancer, an Oncotype test to analyze the agression of my cancer was not developed until 2004. If I had cancer one year before that, I would not have had the opportunity to have that analysis done and would have had to have chemotherapy.

Cancer has existed (in humans and animals) for ... forever. Researchers slowly develop understanding, sometimes through trial and error.

If cancer and AIDS are difficult to treat, how can the brain be solved so simply? Also the internet (which really didn't get going until the mid 1990s) has helped with sharing of information. If you lived when there was no internet, FAX machines, personal computers, cell phones, etc. ... well, things were a bit more difficult to accomplish.

Things take time. People disagree on the approach to something.
Bottom line, it does sound as if you are anti-science. It's OK if you are, but for example, I personally am trying to get speakers to talk to a wider audience of professionals about DP. Yes, it is on the back burner. This very website, and the many people here who have made videos, shared their experiences, etc. are changing awareness about DP/DR right now.

Have to go to sleep.
You seem to imply there is some conspiracy, or some stupidity, or IDK what that is keeping DP treatment from the average person.

I have written about some of the stumbling blocks. I'd have to find an old post.

Yes, more can be done ... but do you understand all of the other mental disorders that are considered more serious? That have a greater impact on society -- job loss, disability, crime, homelessnesss, medical costs, etc., etc. Also dissociative disorders have been looked down upon due to conroversy over MPD for example, which is now DID for a reason. Tired. Too long of a story. Many have also argued that Freud took psychiatry back 50 years with a number of his theories. I will agree it threw the mental health field into two divided camps -- psychoanalytic vs. more neurologically oriented, but we also know the best approach is combining both psychological and neurological.

If professionals don't agree on theories ...well that's the start of the problem. And this occurs in politics, and all other fields of study.

Nite.


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

Note the resistence in the West to Eastern approaches, such as accupuncture and meditation. People from different cultures have different views of illness. The end result can be a lot of dead ends before people are willing to open their minds. Accupuncture has been approved in the US for pain control for ... IDK 20 years? or 15 years? yet you are more likely to be given a pill for pain than accupuncture. Yes, it's easier. That's what an insurance company will pay for, or there aren't enough accupuncturists around, or not enough good ones, etc., etc. SO many reasons. Not just simple ones.


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## Guest (Jun 21, 2014)

Dr B said:


> Philios
> 
> Because you have, repeatedly on this site and you constantly attack science for not 'curing' DPD. I've had these conversations with you.
> 
> ...


Dr B.. what a load of rot. Don't assume you know these things about me. You know very little about me. I've had a high functioning DID system longer than you've been on the planet. Time to get off your high horse, open the other eye and listen for a change. Personally I'm (and I'd say many others here) are tired of your attitude of 'well, let's deconstruct your arguments'.. Ever thought of trying to be constructive instead? I guess when you've got nothing constructive to say the easiest path is to attempt to discredit everyone else.. Can't hide behind that though.. b/c I can still see you.

Looks like you've got very little to offer anyone here and you say you're a trained psychologist? Hmm?? This constant tirade of "well prove it then, where are the published journals, articles, research".. ohhh yawn yawn yawn.. Your branch of science has basically nothing to offer dissociative people except a couple of poorly worded questionnaires and a bunch of meds that give people more problems than they started out with..

I'd love for you to spout your garbage in front of the trained DID therapists I hang out with.. I could do with a laugh&#8230;.

You have a superiority complex&#8230; deal with it.


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## Guest (Jun 21, 2014)

*Dreamer* said:


> Philos from the link you gave:
> 
> Andrew Denton: "Extraordinary. I'm going to ask a question without notice here - how much government funding do you get?"
> 
> ...


Dreamer.. just getting back to Roger Short.. In the original interview I saw probably 10 years ago he talked about his funding quite a bit. He was funded all the way through his work with the AIDS virus research until he announced his findings. It was then that his fundings were cut. I know in the Andrew Denton interview it comes across as he never got any funding, but his work was funded (by the government I think?)

I don't think he was trying to give the impression that lemons were the cure all.. he only got as far as he did before the funding stopped, then he couldn't carry on anymore. Looks like he just got to the point of proving the lemons had played a big part in prevention.

Anyway.. It looks like his research has been picked up by others and they've run with it.. so that's good. It'd be interesting to see what they're up to nowadays with the lemons.


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2014)

Dr B said:


> My god, you have actually managed to spend your entire post saying nothing. I dont have or need a superiority complex to deconstruct your arguments, and for the record, you never dealt with mine above.
> 
> I've known your agenda since I came here. It's not helpful or useful to the community at large. That chip on your shoulder is yours....


Low level Freemasons&#8230;.. You're the most pathetic of all.


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