# I’m on my last rope



## retrobot (12 mo ago)

yeah, in 3 months I’ve been hospitalised at least 15 times, I have been to the psych-ward once for a few days… I was going okay for a week now I’m back in my bed unable to function, eat, or even shit… my grandparents put a bucket in my room so I could urinate in it because I’m scared that if I leave my room somehow I will forget everything, lose my mind and be back in the hospital…

I have tendencies to keep calling the ambulance to assure myself that they’re real and if I don’t call them I question if I was ever in the hospital and I fear going there because of all the noise, lights and people + I have fantasies about how I would call them and image the scene.

I have come to a conclusion that I am somewhat psychotic in the head.

I don’t see myself getting any further with this.


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## Debora17 (Oct 4, 2021)

retrobot said:


> yeah, in 3 months I’ve been hospitalised at least 15 times, I have been to the psych-ward once for a few days… I was going okay for a week now I’m back in my bed unable to function, eat, or even shit… my grandparents put a bucket in my room so I could urinate in it because I’m scared that if I leave my room somehow I will forget everything, lose my mind and be back in the hospital…
> 
> I have tendencies to keep calling the ambulance to assure myself that they’re real and if I don’t call them I question if I was ever in the hospital and I fear going there because of all the noise, lights and people + I have fantasies about how I would call them and image the scene.
> 
> ...


Please have hope and endure. I was too on my last rope and didn't know what to do six months ago, felt like nothing was real, I slept most of the time and as soon as i woke up i wanted to sleep again but somehow (I really didn't have hope then, I don't know how it got better but it did). I feel like living again. I still do have episodes like darkened vision, like brightness had gone off but I ignore them and they go away. Everything starts and ends in your mind, you just have to trick your mind (sorry If I sound like a mainstream emotional speaker). But really, I went from no emotions and reactions to anything at all, to yelling on the street 3 hours ago XD.


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## retrobot (12 mo ago)

Debora17 said:


> Please have hope and endure. I was too on my last rope and didn't know what to do six months ago, felt like nothing was real, I slept most of the time and as soon as i woke up i wanted to sleep again but somehow (I really didn't have hope then, I don't know how it got better but it did). I feel like living again. I still do have episodes like darkened vision, like brightness had gone off but I ignore them and they go away. Everything starts and ends in your mind, you just have to trick your mind (sorry If I sound like a mainstream emotional speaker). But really, I went from no emotions and reactions to anything at all, to yelling on the street 3 hours ago XD.


I’m so jealous…ugh have a blast!


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## coolwhip27 (Mar 14, 2015)

My honest advice would to be for you to ignore how you are doing in your mind and think of some actual positives that exist in your life. Things that have nothing to do with your mind but that you have to be thankful for.


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## retrobot (12 mo ago)

coolwhip27 said:


> My honest advice would to be for you to ignore how you are doing in your mind and think of some actual positives that exist in your life. Things that have nothing to do with your mind but that you have to be thankful for.


I understand where you’re coming from, although I can’t view anything as positive even though it is, it’s like my perception has altered to everything.

When you can’t feel nothing except pure terror how can you revert to optimism or be grateful.

I’m not pure ungrateful, I understand there are less fortunate people and beyond my mind there are actually people in a worse mental state, but one thing I’ve learned is that my basic cognitive ability to reflect on those is not there… so goodbye to ‘me’


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## coolwhip27 (Mar 14, 2015)

retrobot said:


> I understand where you’re coming from, although I can’t view anything as positive even though it is, it’s like my perception has altered to everything.
> 
> When you can’t feel nothing except pure terror how can you revert to optimism or be grateful.
> 
> I’m not pure ungrateful, I understand there are less fortunate people and beyond my mind there are actually people in a worse mental state, but one thing I’ve learned is that my basic cognitive ability to reflect on those is not there… so goodbye to ‘me’


i completely understand. You can’t be grateful in the mind state you’re in. But because this is all thought based problems you’re dealing with, if you DECIDED to be grateful, it could flip your thoughts upside down (in agood way)


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## ThoughtOnFire (Feb 10, 2015)




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## coolwhip27 (Mar 14, 2015)

ThoughtOnFire said:


>


I never invalidated his or anyone’s pain here so if your comment is aimed at me then your analogy is just plain wrong. Plus the flu isn’t a mind problem.


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## ThoughtOnFire (Feb 10, 2015)

It was not aimed at you.


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## coolwhip27 (Mar 14, 2015)

ThoughtOnFire said:


> It was not aimed at you.


Sorry. Please forgive me I’m having a tough time being a better person but I’m working on it. Good day to you
Also, I like the meme.


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## leminaseri (Jul 1, 2020)

ThoughtOnFire said:


>


well you can indeed ignore the flu and you will be much more in peace than ruminating about your flu


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## leminaseri (Jul 1, 2020)

ThoughtOnFire said:


> It was not aimed at you.


why do you lie? it couldnt be aimed at someone else. otherwise it would be utterly off-topic


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## retrobot (12 mo ago)

leminaseri said:


> why do you lie? it couldnt be aimed at someone else. otherwise it would be utterly off-topic


Was thinking the same… TOF is a odd one


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## ThoughtOnFire (Feb 10, 2015)

leminaseri said:


> why do you lie? it couldnt be aimed at someone else. otherwise it would be utterly off-topic


It wasn't directed as an attack. It just came to mind, so I shared it. I happen to agree with coolwhip's approach.


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

In the one hand it's true that some of these advices can be useful and it would be a pity to not give them if they can help someone, and on the other hand I understand what ThoughtOnFire's comic strip is saying, when you get a piece of advice that is impossible to apply in your situation this can feel invalidating. I think it's a tricky question. 
What is for sure invalidation is to have the other person say they cannot apply it and pretend you know better than them what they should or can do.

I think I have often have conflicts here around this question. 

Saying "you should do that" or "you can do that" means that you assume you have some control over the situation. This is a good way to fight feelings of powerlessness that can feed depression. 

But in the other hand, thinking that you are in control and witnessing again and again that you still don't get the results you want can also increase feelings of dispair, because you keep thinking that _you_ are the only solution and apparently _you_ are not enough. For this problem, feeling that you are not in control can help reaching acceptance, which is kind of the end of the grieving process, and is also said to help with DPDR.

I don't think the good solution is either control or no control, but each person meets different obstacles on their way and the solution can be different depending on the obstacles. And two persons meeting an obstacle that looks the same don't necessarily need the same solution. If being in control has worked for me for years, that doesn't necessarily mean that every person I meet on my way should learn from me because it will solve their problem too. From my own experience, I have been in total control for years. Every problem I met I thought I would solve it with my mind by finding a special trick because I thought I thought deeper than others, and maybe it worked more or less for a big portion of my life. And even if it was not ideal I was doing it with such a force that I was still getting some result, or at least I thought so. But in DPDR I met an exception, because I think that controlling mind was then part of the problem because it did make me obsess about DPDR, but still it was the only thing I could do because it was the only muscle I had ever trained.

Anyway, even if some piece of advice is good, how you say it also matters. If you give a potential solution to someone, it can sound like you share some hope with them, or it can sound like "here is a potential solution, and I know for sure it works, so if it doesn't work in your case then you must be doing it wrong so it's your fault if you are where you are now". This is textbook invalidation, and I have read that literally many times on the forum. A lot of pep talks aim at making people feel they are in control if they just push harder, but it doesn't help if thinking you are in control is part of the problem.

And even if you share some hope with someone, it is so easy to use that to not listen to them because you are afraid of your own powerlessness or something like that. I think validating someone means you make them more comfortable with their present situation, which is often a first condition before any advice can be received. And very often no advice is necessary because people have already heard all the advice they need but just need to be accepted for where they are before they can move on. Sometimes 15 people not accepting where you are and trying to make you move push you further into depression, and one person accepting where you are allows you to move on.


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

coolwhip27 said:


> I never invalidated his or anyone’s pain here so if your comment is aimed at me then your analogy is just plain wrong. Plus the flu isn’t a mind problem.


For this I'm not sure it necessarily makes a big difference. It's not because it is in our mind that it is necessarily easier to fix. 
If it is actually very difficult to fix, and you erroneously tell someone that it should be easier than it actually is, then it's invalidating in my opinion.


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## coolwhip27 (Mar 14, 2015)

Trith said:


> For this I'm not sure it necessarily makes a big difference. It's not because it is in our mind that it is necessarily easier to fix.
> If it is actually very difficult to fix, and you erroneously tell someone that it should be easier than it actually is, then it's invalidating in my opinion.


No It’s not necessarily easier I agree, but the 2 cannot be compared. On the one hand (the mind), the problem is you. Neuroticness, deranged, disorder. On the other hand (the flu), the problem is your body. Not controllable like the mind. I suffer from detachment immensely everyday, and even though I don’t blame myself I know it is a matter of me having the cure. If I was strong, i would just up up and away.


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

coolwhip27 said:


> No It’s not necessarily easier I agree, but the 2 cannot be compared. On the one hand (the mind), the problem is you. Neuroticness, deranged, disorder. On the other hand (the flu), the problem is your body. Not controllable like the mind. I suffer from detachment immensely everyday, and even though I don’t blame myself I know it is a matter of me having the cure. If I was strong, i would just up up and away.


So this is exactly what I mean and this is what the drawing means. It's exactly on point. It's not because it's in the mind that it is virtual and you necessarily have control over it. And it doesn't mean that if you cannot solve the problem you are not strong. Telling this to someone who has a mental disorder can be really hurtful.

You could say the same about your body. Your body is you too, it's a very DPDR thing to say the opposite, and to some extent you can also say that "if you were strong" you could deadlift 200 kg. But sometimes you can't even if you want to. And maybe some people have disabilities and will never be able to deadlift 200 kg in their lives and they have to find their own way of solving the problem (That analogy is not so good), and some will never solve the problem. The point of the drawing is to say that we are not all the same in our minds at any time and the problem with the mind is that the problems you can have are invisible to others. But this doesn't mean you can make them disappear. They are problems that can be as real as the problems you have with your body.

I have a little mood disorder and when I was in my twenties I had multiple mood switches in one month and they could be very strong. And I knew at that time I had a mood disorder, and I knew my mind was just tricking me. When I had a depressive episode it could last something around one week, and I thought my life was over, I had suicidal thoughts, and I really believe them, it was very hard. But still, before the episode started I could feel it coming. I knew what it was, I thought "it's just brain chemistry", "it's an illusion, I went through this countless times and I know it is not true", "i know exactly what is going to happen in a few minutes and I need to get prepared and not believe what my mind is going to tell me". And then I felt it coming, I could fight it for one minute, but not more, i was not in control anymore in less than one minute and I promise it wasn't a matter of strength. one minute was almost impossible and there was no chance I could fight this for a while week. When my mind had decided I was going to have a depressive episode there was nothing I could do (or very little), even if I had experience about it and I know what it was. "Knowing" about it was not helping. And if you have never been through that you can think you have control over it and others have control too.
But if your brain doesn't produce enough let's say serotonin, you cannot produce it through wishful thinking, and it will definitely have important consequences on how you function. If you think the mind can do everything you are the one being tricked by that illusion.
That's like drinking a bottle of vodka and thinking you can "not be drunk" if you try hard enough because it's all in your mind. Just like you cannot make ethanol disappear from your body through wishful thinking, you cannot make THC disappear, just like you cannot necessarily fix your brain into producing the right amount of serotonin or dopamine. And you brain cannot function properly without those. Our mind needs a functioning physical brain to function properly. Not that you cannot find any solutions or workarounds to some extent, but it's not like our thoughts are in a virtual ether, completely detached from our bodies and brain chemistry.


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## leminaseri (Jul 1, 2020)

Trith said:


> So this is exactly what I mean and this is what the drawing means. It's exactly on point. It's not because it's in the mind that it is virtual and you necessarily have control over it. And it doesn't mean that if you cannot solve the problem you are not strong. Telling this to someone who has a mental disorder can be really hurtful.
> 
> You could say the same about your body. Your body is you too, it's a very DPDR thing to say the opposite, and to some extent you can also say that "if you were strong" you could deadlift 200 kg. But sometimes you can't even if you want to. And maybe some people have disabilities and will never be able to deadlift 200 kg in their lives and they have to find their own way of solving the problem (That analogy is not so good), and some will never solve the problem. The point of the drawing is to say that we are not all the same in our minds at any time and the problem with the mind is that the problems you can have are invisible to others. But this doesn't mean you can make them disappear. They are problems that can be as real as the problems you have with your body.
> 
> ...


i think we have to separate between dpdr and other mental illness. i said this once already, but bipolar disorder or schizophrenia dont have a high rate of spontaneous recovery as dpdr. so this implies me that dpdr in special have very much to do with beliefs and thinking style. you can not put all mental illness together. some people get panic attacks from drugs but when the drug is out of the blood everything goes back to normal while other people become dpd afterwards. i was living in a drug community, all my friends did drugs. when they had panic attacks or paranoia i asked them how they could stay so calm the next day as if it never happened. the answer was always „i just didnt ruminate, i knew it was just the effect of the drug


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## coolwhip27 (Mar 14, 2015)

Trith said:


> So this is exactly what I mean and this is what the drawing means. It's exactly on point. It's not because it's in the mind that it is virtual and you necessarily have control over it. And it doesn't mean that if you cannot solve the problem you are not strong. Telling this to someone who has a mental disorder can be really hurtful.
> 
> You could say the same about your body. Your body is you too, it's a very DPDR thing to say the opposite, and to some extent you can also say that "if you were strong" you could deadlift 200 kg. But sometimes you can't even if you want to. And maybe some people have disabilities and will never be able to deadlift 200 kg in their lives and they have to find their own way of solving the problem (That analogy is not so good), and some will never solve the problem. The point of the drawing is to say that we are not all the same in our minds at any time and the problem with the mind is that the problems you can have are invisible to others. But this doesn't mean you can make them disappear. They are problems that can be as real as the problems you have with your body.
> 
> ...


It seems like you have some sort of weird obsession about our “choice” or “non-choice” regarding our suffering. Forget about this whole idea of brain chemistry and throw it out the damn window because what you actually have here is your own thought projecting an image. The image that you are creating with thought is of an outside influence that you have no control over (brain chemistry). In reality our minds are self contained and the only way out of your suffering is through the same mind. You are really bothering me with this bullshit about how we have no choice. You’re in denial of actual facts. Basically you’re saying that our brain chemistry is taking us on a predestined thought trip.

You said that you could feel that the mood swing was going to come, but perhaps the preparing for it is what made it appear in your mind. No, we may not create certain thoughts or feelings willingly with a disorder but it isn’t about willpower, it’s about insight.


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## coolwhip27 (Mar 14, 2015)

And you may not understand this because of your thought but a mental disorder isn’t a permanent label placed on us like a curse. Sometimes I get detached and sometimes I don’t. But I know that what is deciding that is how well I am doing. Replace “I am” with “my mind is”. It’s the same thing.


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

leminaseri said:


> i think we have to separate between dpdr and other mental illness. i said this once already, but bipolar disorder or schizophrenia dont have a high rate of spontaneous recovery as dpdr. so this implies me that dpdr in special have very much to do with beliefs and thinking style. you can not put all mental illness together. some people get panic attacks from drugs but when the drug is out of the blood everything goes back to normal while other people become dpd afterwards. i was living in a drug community, all my friends did drugs. when they had panic attacks or paranoia i asked them how they could stay so calm the next day as if it never happened. the answer was always „i just didnt ruminate, i knew it was just the effect of the drug


But I'm not sure the fact it can often go away on its own is really relevant. Depression also sometimes goes away on its own, and sometimes it doesn't. My mood disorder did go away on its own to a large extent, even if it's not typical. I am without treatment and I haven't had a depressive episode for years, when when I was in my 20's it was strong ups and downs non-stop. I have a friend who has schizophrenia and used to have a strong treatment, and now he is nearly without any treatment and he is relatively fine. (anecdotal evidence, but still, to me it means that it's not really relevant). And physical wounds to the body also sometimes heal on their own and sometimes they don't completely, and willpower has usually nothing to do with it. So I don't see why that link would necessarily be there too when we talk about the mind.


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## leminaseri (Jul 1, 2020)

Trith said:


> But I'm not sure the fact it can often go away on its own is really relevant. Depression also sometimes goes away on its own, and sometimes it doesn't. My mood disorder did go away on its own to a large extent, even if it's not typical. I am without treatment and I haven't had a depressive episode for years, when when I was in my 20's it was strong ups and downs non-stop. I have a friend who has schizophrenia and used to have a strong treatment, and now he is nearly without any treatment and he is relatively fine. (anecdotal evidence, but still, to me it means that it's not really relevant). And physical wounds to the body also sometimes heal on their own and sometimes they don't completely, and willpower has usually nothing to do with it. So I don't see why that link would necessarily be there too when we talk about the mind.


why dont you respond to the other part of my reply? because you can not explain it right?


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

coolwhip27 said:


> It seems like you have some sort of weird obsession about our “choice” or “non-choice” regarding our suffering. Forget about this whole idea of brain chemistry and throw it out the damn window because what you actually have here is your own thought projecting an image. The image that you are creating with thought is of an outside influence that you have no control over (brain chemistry). In reality our minds are self contained and the only way out of your suffering is through the same mind. You are really bothering me with this bullshit about how we have no choice. You’re in denial of actual facts. Basically you’re saying that our brain chemistry is taking us on a predestined thought trip.
> 
> You said that you could feel that the mood swing was going to come, but perhaps the preparing for it is what made it appear in your mind. No, we may not create certain thoughts or feelings willingly with a disorder but it isn’t about willpower, it’s about insight.


No, you are the one having a weird obsession about the fact that it is only thought and the we can make it if we really want it. I am not saying that insight is useless, I do think it is useful. What I am saying here is that you say it is only insight and I am saying that you don't know this for a fact. You are the one making affirmations and I am the one saying we should have more doubt than that and not tell people what they have or don't have.
You are the one saying that we can conquer everything through strength, insight, control. Yes, all these things are useful as I said, but they are not the solution to every problem. In Alcoholics Anonymous for example (and it's just an example), they say "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference". They don't say "grant me the courage to change everything". That doesn't mean you have to give up and be depressed, that means that sometimes the best solution can come only if you give up on some things. They have 12 steps that are tools for recovery from addiction, and the first three are just about accepting that trying to change some things did not work until then, and they are the ground for the remaining 9 steps. The thing is, people who arrive in these meetings are totally depressed and they destroyed themselves precisely because they kept fighting as they did. A lot of them, if not the majority, have been told that to go forward in life you had to be strong, that if it doesn't work you just need to push harder, that everything is possible and if you don't make it it's your fault, that if you have negative emotions you are weak, and so on... a lot of them don't have tools to handle negative emotions and think that if they give up on the smallest thing then they will be weak for ever, complain all the time and so on. The truth is, it is _because_ they think like that that they end up depressed. They think it's the solution but its the problem. Not that courage is not important, but it's not the only solution to every problem. Sometimes you have to acknowledge that you can't solve a problem, and that _IS_ the beginning of the solution.
And I am not saying that brain chemistry is taking us on a predestinated thought trip. I do think that insight is important. I am defending the idea that B exists, and that doesn't mean I am defending the idea that A doesn't exist. If I say that we are not in control of everything in our minds that doesn't mean I think we are in control of nothing. If I am saying that diesel cars exist that doesn't mean I am denying that gasoline cars exist as well. If I am saying that dogs are nice, that doesn't mean I think cats are evil. This is absurd.
Insight is very important, otherwise going to a psychologist would be useless and I don't know why I would be paying for two complementary psychologists at the same time now. Last months I had 9 appointments with different therapists in order to find some with whom it works. I do not say nor think that insight is not important and if this is what you understand I am saying then you need to read again. And if I didn't think insight was important I wouldn't be talking here. All we are doing now is exchanging insight. Everything I am saying here_ is_ insight.
What I am saying is that we are in control of some things in our minds but we don't have absolute power. Brain chemistry does affect everything. When we talk about brain chemistry we mean neurotransmitters. Absolutely every communication between neurons works with neurotransmitters, this is how synapses work. Everything in our brains is brain chemistry including our insights. If our brain chemistry is malfunctionning, our insights will be malfunctionning.
Everything I am saying is insight as well. Perhaps you could say that the trick is to stop thinking a mental trick will help us, and move on. To stop pushing against a wall and open your eyes because maybe there is a door right next to you. But if you are too afraid to stop pushing you will never find it. If it's time to tell the other person's truth, as you are doing with me, then perhaps you are too afraid of your own negative emotions, for good or bad reasons, and your running away from them at all cost with self generated hope is what is keeping you dissociated, who knows?

And no, I don't think mood disorders are caused just by expecting to have a mood disorder. People who have a manic episode and start running naked in the street or jump by the window because they think they can fly are not lacking insight about the fact tha humans can't fly. They can't control it through insight, otherwise knowing about gravity would be enough to save them. And between people who are just a little depressed and people who are completely delirious there is a whole range of possible experiences and at some point insight is certainly not enough. And you don't know where I did stand in this range so you can't know if I could have prevented or not with insight.
Maybe expectation plays a role in many things, but if you think that this is just how mood disorders work then maybe you have found the cure to mood disorders. Just by thinking for 20 seconds about Trith's comment on an anonymous forum you debunked decades of research by generations of specialists who have done years of study on that topic. Or, you are going full Dunning-Kruger.


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

leminaseri said:


> why dont you respond to the other part of my reply? because you can not explain it right?


What I think about it I already wrote it here: Feeling bad again- can anyone relate to these thoughts?



Trith said:


> So some people feel that they are depressed because they now see the world for what it is. Some people who fall into DP feel like they feel like this because they have realized something about the world or about their mind, and some people feel they are cured because they understood something about DPDR. So I think there is also some tendency sometimes to take credit for these changes of state. It’s weird to me that so many people come to the forum thinking they have found “the cure” and want to tell every one what they should do, and often with a kind of authoritarian tone, in my opinion, as if they are sharing a kind of realization. And I find it weird because very often they credit different techniques or therapies that have never been proven to be efficient. I do think people recover but maybe not for reasons that are obvious or reasons that they understand. (By the way, one can notice that even for depression it doesn’t work this way. I have rarely seen someone who recovered from depression telling every one how to do to get out of it, they rather offer support and understanding, knowing that everybody’s path is different)


As I said, this kind of insight is indeed very important because it helps to take some distance with respect to the problem and question our own impression. This is kind of the target of CBT, to question our habitual reactions. So yes, cool, it works well for many problems including anxiety and panic attacks and DPDR for many people and perhaps for everyone to some extent (edit: and as a matter of fact I am starting to work with a therapist who does CBT because I do think it can help me to some extent, and that extent I want to have it). But what I am saying is that if you see someone who is suffering you cannot assume this is the solution to every problem and paste it on them, and tell them that if it didn't work it's because they did it wrong. Just because it felt like this worked for you or this person for one (big or small) problem in their life, doesn't mean it will solve every problem for everyone or every one of your problems in the future. Some people probably do it wrong indeed, but you need to consider that you don't know everything and maybe for some people it's not enough. (And nobody will die if you do that, the result is just that you will respect more what they say and where they are at)

My mood disorder went away for the most part. When it does come back a little, I do feel like I can have some distance with it and that helps me a lot. But I don't start thinking I have found the cure for mood disorders in general. If it came back to what I had in my 20's I would be gone and my insights would probably help but it would definitely not solve the problem at all. Just as it happened for you when you relapsed in DPDR the second time. This is how I explain it.


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## coolwhip27 (Mar 14, 2015)

Trith said:


> No, you are the one having a weird obsession about the fact that it is only thought and the we can make it if we really want it. I am not saying that insight is useless, I do think it is useful. What I am saying here is that you say it is only insight and I am saying that you don't know this for a fact. You are the one making affirmations and I am the one saying we should have more doubt than that and not tell people what they have or don't have.
> You are the one saying that we can conquer everything through strength, insight, control. Yes, all these things are useful as I said, but they are not the solution to every problem. In Alcoholics Anonymous for example (and it's just an example), they say "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference". They don't say "grant me the courage to change everything". That doesn't mean you have to give up and be depressed, that means that sometimes the best solution can come only if you give up on some things. They have 12 steps that are tools for recovery from addiction, and the first three are just about accepting that trying to change some things did not work until then, and they are the ground for the remaining 9 steps. The thing is, people who arrive in these meetings are totally depressed and they destroyed themselves precisely because they kept fighting as they did. A lot of them, if not the majority, have been told that to go forward in life you had to be strong, that if it doesn't work you just need to push harder, that everything is possible and if you don't make it it's your fault, that if you have negative emotions you are weak, and so on... a lot of them don't have tools to handle negative emotions and think that if they give up on the smallest thing then they will be weak for ever, complain all the time and so on. The truth is, it is _because_ they think like that that they end up depressed. They think it's the solution but its the problem. Not that courage is not important, but it's not the only solution to every problem. Sometimes you have to acknowledge that you can't solve a problem, and that _IS_ the beginning of the solution.
> And I am not saying that brain chemistry is taking us on a predestinated thought trip. I do think that insight is important. I am defending the idea that B exists, and that doesn't mean I am defending the idea that A doesn't exist. If I say that we are not in control of everything in our minds that doesn't mean I think we are in control of nothing. If I am saying that diesel cars exist that doesn't mean I am denying that gasoline cars exist as well. If I am saying that dogs are nice, that doesn't mean I think cats are evil. This is absurd.
> Insight is very important, otherwise going to a psychologist would be useless and I don't know why I would be paying for two complementary psychologists at the same time now. Last months I had 9 appointments with different therapists in order to find some with whom it works. I do not say nor think that insight is not important and if this is what you understand I am saying then you need to read again. And if I didn't think insight was important I wouldn't be talking here. All we are doing now is exchanging insight. Everything I am saying here_ is_ insight.
> ...


It’s not about changing everything in your mind. I’m not saying that if you just decide to be ok then you can be. But the mind has the potential to look at its own thought and discover why it is suffering. Suffering without any external influence falls into the depersonalization category. If it has anything to do with thoughts, anxiety ocd etc then it can be cured by you. Saying that I don’t know this for a fact means nothing. I know this for a fact because I have observed it. I am not talking about any kind of insight that you are telling me. Not logical insight that is looking at the brain from an outside perspective. It is naturally illogical to look at the brain from the outside which is exactly what you’re doing by even mentioning the concept of brain-chemistry, as if it has any importance on the matter of the ability to change. It is illogical because as you do examine concepts of the brain through your brain, the actual perception of yours is changing as you do. Read that carefully. I am talking about self-exclusive insight into your own thought that only you can dive into, not me. The mind works all in one. It’s not thoughts, brain chemistry as a division. There is no division.

Also, when Alcoholics Anonymous announces that phrase, they are talking about serious life problems, not issues wih thoughts without any external affect.


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## leminaseri (Jul 1, 2020)

Trith said:


> What I think about it I already wrote it here: Feeling bad again- can anyone relate to these thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


okay just one question. can we necessarily say that everyone can have the same mental strengthness? isnt it possible that people who recover from dpdr are indeed stronger than those who dont? 

do you want to know my opinion? its an attitude thing. while some people become a billionaire and very successfull in their business-life although they did the same (effort) work as someone who works at subway for 12 $/h, latter will just have 2000 dollar per month to pay their flat and food.


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

coolwhip27 said:


> It’s not about changing everything in your mind. I’m not saying that if you just decide to be ok then you can be. But the mind has the potential to look at its own thought and discover why it is suffering. Suffering without any external influence falls into the depersonalization category. If it has anything to do with thoughts, anxiety ocd etc then it can be cured by you. Saying that I don’t know this for a fact means nothing. I know this for a fact because I have observed it. I am not talking about any kind of insight that you are telling me. Not logical insight that is looking at the brain from an outside perspective. It is naturally illogical to look at the brain from the outside which is exactly what you’re doing by even mentioning the concept of brain-chemistry, as if it has any importance on the matter of the ability to change. It is illogical because as you do examine concepts of the brain through your brain, the actual perception of yours is changing as you do. Read that carefully. I am talking about self-exclusive insight into your own thought that only you can dive into, not me. The mind works all in one. It’s not thoughts, brain chemistry as a division. There is no division.
> 
> Also, when Alcoholics Anonymous announces that phrase, they are talking about serious life problems, not issues wih thoughts without any external affect.


Wait, what have you observed and know for a fact? That sometimes you can cure your mind with your own mind? If it's what you mean then it isn't what I am talking about, I said several times that I agree that it is sometimes the case and I am actually counting on it when I go see a therapist. What we were discussing is if sometimes this could _not_ be enough. If you are talking about examples where it is enough then that doesn't bring anything new, I already know that sometimes it's enough. If someone argues that some birds are red, you cannot prove him wrong by bringing white birds. You can prove him wrong if he said that all birds are red, then yes, if you bring five white birds then he is wrong. But I never said that psychology cannot cure DPDR. Again it's very different to say that psychology can cure DPDR and saying that psychology can always cure DPDR.
And I don't really know what you want to say when you say that observing yourself has an effect on your mind. I don't see how it's connected to what we are talking about. I'm saying that in many cases it seems you can't fix yourself with your own thoughts, and I don't see why you should necessarily be able to do that in the case of DPDR. I am not saying that you can't, and I am not saying that you can, it is you who are saying that you always can ultimately, and I don't think you have good reasons to assume that. And if you don't know, humility would require that you respect someone who can't and not assume they are doing something wrong, which is what this comic strip is about.

And AA is all about the mind, about thoughts, decision making and insight. About knowing that if you drink a first glass, will you be able to not drink a second, a third, a fourth, and so on...In principle if we could always fix our minds with our minds we could always make the perfect decision. Some can around alcohol (for example), and some can't, and they start to recover when they admit that. But anyway, if someone keeps telling them that they are weak for not being able to drink like everybody else it's not helping at all.


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

leminaseri said:


> okay just one question. can we necessarily say that everyone can have the same mental strengthness? isnt it possible that people who recover from dpdr are indeed stronger than those who dont?
> 
> do you want to know my opinion? its an attitude thing. while some people become a billionaire and very successfull in their business-life although they did the same (effort) work as someone who works at subway for 12 $/h, latter will just have 2000 dollar per month to pay their flat and food.


Indeed, personally I do think that different people have different abilities in different domains. I am not sure if this could be simplified to a "strength", but maybe yes, at least I would say some people are better at managing their emotions, for example, just like some people are better at maths. I am reluctant to call it strength and weakness though even if it could still be correct. I would say that someone who is not so good at maths but works twice as hard to reach the average level is a strong person, for example. Or someone who knows they are really bad at maths but don't let it ruin their confidence and just move to something they are better at and surround themselves with people who have complementary qualities. This is also a good attitude thing in my opinion.
A lot of successful people also say they were just at the right place at the right moment and it was just luck. I know some really successful people in scientific research, for example, and their biggest qualities (the people I know) is first that they are smart and second that they are very sociable and can surround themselves with the right people. And they were like that all along, it was part of their personality. I don't think we can all be like that, and really that's fine with me.

(edit: but I don't think that the ability to fight depression or DPDR is (only) an innate ability. Maybe it depends on their current situation too, on their past, on the cause of it, and so on)


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## coolwhip27 (Mar 14, 2015)

Trith said:


> Wait, what have you observed and know for a fact? That sometimes you can cure your mind with your own mind? If it's what you mean then it isn't what I am talking about, I said several times that I agree that it is sometimes the case and I am actually counting on it when I go see a therapist. What we were discussing is if sometimes this could _not_ be enough. If you are talking about examples where it is enough then that doesn't bring anything new, I already know that sometimes it's enough. If someone argues that some birds are red, you cannot prove him wrong by bringing white birds. You can prove him wrong if he said that all birds are red, then yes, if you bring five white birds then he is wrong. But I never said that psychology cannot cure DPDR. Again it's very different to say that psychology can cure DPDR and saying that psychology can always cure DPDR.
> And I don't really know what you want to say when you say that observing yourself has an effect on your mind. I don't see how it's connected to what we are talking about. I'm saying that in many cases it seems you can't fix yourself with your own thoughts, and I don't see why you should necessarily be able to do that in the case of DPDR. I am not saying that you can't, and I am not saying that you can, it is you who are saying that you always can ultimately, and I don't think you have good reasons to assume that. And if you don't know, humility would require that you respect someone who can't and not assume they are doing something wrong, which is what this comic strip is about.
> 
> And AA is all about the mind, about thoughts, decision making and insight. About knowing that if you drink a first glass, will you be able to not drink a second, a third, a fourth, and so on...In principle if we could always fix our minds with our minds we could always make the perfect decision. Some can around alcohol (for example), and some can't, and they start to recover when they admit that. But anyway, if someone keeps telling them that they are weak for not being able to drink like everybody else it's not helping at all.


Your quibbling about whether or not it is enough or not enough is pointless. What is so important here? Your fighting for some peoples right to have an excuse to be miserable or what? Detachment and depersonalization becomes chronic because of your own negative thought patterns, nothing else. This is what we are talking about right? Logically that means we have the ability to change it because thought patterns are manipulatable. Stop saying “oh we don’t know that”, yes we certainly know that. You’re in a major minority here. Also there is no “weakness” with all this. Stop putting words in my mouth, that was not my point. It’s insight, it’s the mind learning about itself to be able to stop producing its own negative thoughts. that IS ALL IM SAYING. Yes it is enough when it comes to depersonalization. Now stop talking about birds


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

coolwhip27 said:


> Your quibbling about whether or not it is enough or not enough is pointless. What is so important here? Your fighting for some peoples right to have an excuse to be miserable or what? Detachment and depersonalization becomes chronic because of your own negative thought patterns, nothing else. This is what we are talking about right? Logically that means we have the ability to change it because thought patterns are manipulatable. Stop saying “oh we don’t know that”, yes we certainly know that. You’re in a major minority here. Also there is no “weakness” with all this. Stop putting words in my mouth, that was not my point. It’s insight, it’s the mind learning about itself to be able to stop producing its own negative thoughts. that IS ALL IM SAYING. Yes it is enough when it comes to depersonalization. Now stop talking about birds


I have to talk about birds because you don't seem to understand basic logic. You say that it's always produced by negative thoughts, but that's your theory, not mine. My DR kept going all the same for years at the same level whether I had lots of negative thoughts or not at all. We were talking about invalidation and this is what you are doing. You take your own experience and the experience of some people who fit your theory and you diagnose me and tell me what my problem is, and if I disagree based on my observation you tell me that I am misunderstanding myself and that you are right and I should do what you say and if I don't recover it's because I am not obeying you and your theory. Such arrogance. Has anyone ever talked like that to you? Did you understand how stupid it is when I was the one doing it to you in my previous comment? But if I tell you that I don't have negative thoughts correlated with DPDR or if I show you testimonies of people who recover without talking about negative thoughts you will tell me that they probably still had negative thoughts without realizing it just to fit your theory. It's just what you did by imagining that even mood disorders were fitting your theory of thoughts making problems appear. And even if it was the case sometimes, I am just saying you don't know and you should stop pretending to know and telling people how their mind works.
And that's not an excuse to feel miserable, I kept explaining it many times but you still don't get it. Read about the different stages of grief for example. Acceptance that the person is gone and will never come back is not what makes people miserable, acceptance is the last stage of grief, where people start getting better. All the others are about refusing that the person is gone. I am not saying here that this has anything to do with DPDR, I am saying that accepting you can't do anything doesn't necessarily mean you will feel miserable. And I am not saying that some people actually can't do anything about their problems, I am saying that you could consider that maybe you don't know better than everyone. It's accepting that you don't know.
I am not fighting for the right to be miserable. DPDR aside, acceptance is not the cure of every problem on earth of course, but it is a solution to so many problems, and if you don't get this you are not in minority on this forum but you are in minority in the whole world. People who finally accept someone's death don't feel miserable, they _stop_ feeling miserable precisely. Did it ever happen to you? A sibling of mine had depression with strong suicidal thoughts and everybody was giving them advice and was trying to "motivate" them by giving them kicks in the butt as i am sure you would do and it was just making it worse and making them go deeper in depression because they were invalidated (and this is what that comic strip is about). People were telling them that if they felt bad it was because they wanted to feel bad and liked it, just like you are telling me I want to find excuses to feel miserable. Or they told them that "if they just did this or that it would work", as if they were too stupid to have thought about it. But instead I was there and listened and understood what they were saying without telling them they felt bad because they were doing it wrong or I don't know what, and this is what made them feel better. They litterally told me I saved their lives with that. And it's the same with my example about AA, they talk about accepting loss of control and that they can't do what they have tried to do just with their own mind. All my progresses in therapy so far (not necessarily about DPDR but also about DPDR) are thanks to accepting what I feel and self-validating. That doesn't make me feel miserable. What made me feel miserable was when I was trying to reject part of myself because I refused it. Now that I accept not to change these things, I accept to integrate them and now I feel better. For me, DPDR obsessions are always about adding more stuff, more tricks, more fixing, more control over my mind. For me acceptance is not another trick that is added on top of the problem. Acceptance is not a tool that is used to fight something, it's the opposite. Acceptance means actually accepting. Wait, there are so many recovery stories that are about acceptance and there you are telling me that if I accept a problem it's just because I want to feel miserable...
And i am not saying it's only a one way problem. As I said above, different tools can be necessary for different people, different problems and different times. There are definitely people who feel miserable because they believe that for sure there is no possible recovery for them, and maybe they need a different tool, maybe you can help them.
And again and again and again, I am not saying that DPDR for sure can't be fixed for some people, I am just talking about not pretending you know otherwise. Whether it's about DPDR or depression or schizophrenia or anything. I am not saying we need to accept that for sure DPDR can't be fixed for some people, because just like _you don't know_ if it can always be fixed, _I don't know_ if there is any case that can't be fixed. Maybe your solution is to keep fighting until you make it, _I don't know_, but don't pretend you know for all others as if it's going to do them any good.

And that's right, you didn't talk about weakness. It was a misinterpretation on my part.


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## coolwhip27 (Mar 14, 2015)

Trith said:


> I have to talk about birds because you don't seem to understand basic logic. You say that it's always produced by negative thoughts, but that's your theory, not mine. My DR kept going all the same for years at the same level whether I had lots of negative thoughts or not at all. We were talking about invalidation and this is what you are doing. You take your own experience and the experience of some people who fit your theory and you diagnose me and tell me what my problem is, and if I disagree based on my observation you tell me that I am misunderstanding myself and that you are right and I should do what you say and if I don't recover it's because I am not obeying you and your theory. Such arrogance. Has anyone ever talked like that to you? Did you understand how stupid it is when I was the one doing it to you in my previous comment? But if I tell you that I don't have negative thoughts correlated with DPDR or if I show you testimonies of people who recover without talking about negative thoughts you will tell me that they probably still had negative thoughts without realizing it just to fit your theory. It's just what you did by imagining that even mood disorders were fitting your theory of thoughts making problems appear. And even if it was the case sometimes, I am just saying you don't know and you should stop pretending to know and telling people how their mind works.
> And that's not an excuse to feel miserable, I kept explaining it many times but you still don't get it. Read about the different stages of grief for example. Acceptance that the person is gone and will never come back is not what makes people miserable, acceptance is the last stage of grief, where people start getting better. All the others are about refusing that the person is gone. I am not saying here that this has anything to do with DPDR, I am saying that accepting you can't do anything doesn't necessarily mean you will feel miserable. And I am not saying that some people actually can't do anything about their problems, I am saying that you could consider that maybe you don't know better than everyone. It's accepting that you don't know.
> I am not fighting for the right to be miserable. DPDR aside, acceptance is not the cure of every problem on earth of course, but it is a solution to so many problems, and if you don't get this you are not in minority on this forum but you are in minority in the whole world. People who finally accept someone's death don't feel miserable, they _stop_ feeling miserable precisely. Did it ever happen to you? A sibling of mine had depression with strong suicidal thoughts and everybody was giving her advice and was trying to "motivate" them by giving them kicks in the butt as i am sure you would do and it was just making it worse and making them go deeper in depression because they were invalidated (and this is what that comic strip is about). People were telling them that if they felt bad it was because they wanted to feel bad and liked it, just like you are telling me I want to find excuses to feel miserable. Or they told them that "if they just did this or that it would work", as if they were too stupid to have thought about it. But instead I was there and listened and understood what they were saying without telling them they felt bad because they were doing it wrong or I don't know what, and this is what made them feel better. They litterally told me I saved their lives with that. And it's the same with my example about AA, they talk about accepting loss of control and that they can't do what they have tried to do just with their own mind. All my progresses in therapy so far (not necessarily about DPDR but also about DPDR) are thanks to accepting what I feel and self-validating. That doesn't make me feel miserable. What made me feel miserable was when I was trying to reject part of myself because I refused it. Now that I accept not to change these things, I accept to integrate them and now I feel better. For me, DPDR obsessions are always about adding more stuff, more tricks, more fixing, more control over my mind. For me acceptance is not another trick that is added on top of the problem. Acceptance is not a tool that is used to fight something, it's the opposite. Acceptance means actually accepting. Wait, there are so many recovery stories that are about acceptance and there you are telling me that if I accept a problem it's just because I want to feel miserable...
> And i am not saying it's only a one way problem. As I said above, different tools can be necessary for different people, different problems and different times. There are definitely people who feel miserable because they believe that for sure there is no possible recovery for them, and maybe they need a different tool, maybe you can help them.
> ...


Sorry but I’m not reading more than half of your 300 page essay. Did I say acceptance is the solution to every problem? I have reminded you numerous times, we are talking about a problem that has NOTHING to do with “real life” problems. I am talking about irrational thought, not Alcoholics Anonymous. I’m talking about detachment and anxiety and suffering for no reason, not about your sibling dying. But go ahead, try to validate a false premise because it benefits your own insecurity with your problem. Reality doesn’t care about your feelings, and Im not going to let you get away with spreading misinformation. I’m also not invalidating anybody, that’s gone to your head because you’re obsessed with that notion. 

Here’s what you’re telling me you disagree with;
Minds that have disorders such as depersonalization have the ability find their way out of their suffering. Now, you’re looking at that with a negative connotation. That’s your own fault. I see it as a positive connotation because it means I have a chance. It also enables me to find my way because I know the path is lit before me. Stop making this more complicated than it is.


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

And you are the one looking at "accepting powerlessness" with a negative connotation, so what? (That's a rethorical question)
Also did I say you thought acceptance was the solution to every problem? What are you talking about? It looks to me like you are rather thinking the opposite. Is this a typo? Where did this come from?
And now alcoholics anonymous are about real life problems and DPDR is not. What is this about now... Alcoholics anonymous is constantly about emotions and irrational thoughts. Do you know about this topic or are you making things up? Or do you mean that alcoholics are all supposed to have real life traumas and DPDR is never related to trauma? I'm not even sure I want to know what belief this is about. Or is it "real life" because it involves potentially using their arm to pick the glass?
And you call this "suffering for no reason". Wow... But also that's not invalidation. Yes, for sure it's not.
I hope that was short enough for you to read. But anyway, that's all for me.


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## coolwhip27 (Mar 14, 2015)

Ok, focus on what I said about the alcoholics thing and nothing else. Fail to understand my central point. 
Btw, accepting powerlessness is the equivalent to thinking you’ll stay miserable. So, “so what” is a very dumb question
Its not about suffering for no reason, it’s about suffering from things only in your mind. You’re twisting my words into your own negative meaning. It has nothing to do with invalidation. Good god


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## leminaseri (Jul 1, 2020)

coolwhip27 said:


> Ok, focus on what I said about the alcoholics thing and nothing else. Fail to understand my central point.


he/she is doing this all the time seriously


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## coolwhip27 (Mar 14, 2015)

@Trith Let’s make peace. I agree with you in that not always can someone see their way out of the dark. I am powerless to the extent that my neurocircuits are my limiter. I still believe that potential is always alive. I don’t think we actually disagree, your point is understood.


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## Disturbed (4 mo ago)

retrobot said:


> yeah, in 3 months I’ve been hospitalised at least 15 times, I have been to the psych-ward once for a few days… I was going okay for a week now I’m back in my bed unable to function, eat, or even shit… my grandparents put a bucket in my room so I could urinate in it because I’m scared that if I leave my room somehow I will forget everything, lose my mind and be back in the hospital…
> 
> I have tendencies to keep calling the ambulance to assure myself that they’re real and if I don’t call them I question if I was ever in the hospital and I fear going there because of all the noise, lights and people + I have fantasies about how I would call them and image the scene.
> 
> ...


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