# CURE



## DM (Aug 12, 2004)

DP/DR = a symptom

neglecting:
your true feelings hence self-actualization

THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE DOING!

Focusing on the symptom gets you further away from THE PROBLEM.

The SYMPTOM becomes the problem...

And you start to think that DP/DR is the problem...And you moan about:

fluorescent lights
fast moving objects
buildings crashing on you
melting with yourself
anxiety
etc
etc
You have a problem. And it is not DP. It is anxiety.

Anxious to flee - anxious to kill. You are a rabbit caught in a light. Trembling with fear - rationalizing away the sensations. You see the guy with the gun and light. A normal rabbit would run! And what we are doing is thinking about that bloody light...

CURE: GET A LIFE!

And run...SOMEWHERE!

:wink:


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2005)

Easier said than done.


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

he knows...he's recovered

and he's right

it takes a while

but get a fuck ing life, to put it nicely 8)

actually i am gonna bring up something he (des) said a long time ago: do the things you're most afraid to do (ask your crush out, confront someone you have been resenting, ask for something, travel to another city, etc).

not only will you have more FUN in doing these things you fear, you also will forget about your SYMPTOMS. and you will be on the way to recovery.


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2005)

*Hola gang...
Always remember...if you cant change your situation, change your attitude. This you can control!

I wish you all well.

TONY*


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

and if you can't beat a grizzly bear...

uh..

wait..

that's not even a saying

i'm really glad there are no bear---- AAAAAGH IM BEING ATTACKED


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## orangeaid (Jun 24, 2005)

as much as dp/dr is a bitch and a half, it also makes some things seem easy.

Regular things that I used to be nervous of I laugh at and I say if i can get through dp/dr this is a joke. Basically going through such a terrify experience makes other things seem very easy.


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## LISA NICHOLS (Sep 3, 2005)

i totally disagree with you about its just anxiety how can it be when all im doing is sitting reading, watching television, even having a nice relaxing bath i aint anxious at all

i know what anxiety is believe me i feel anxious because of the dp/dr when i dont have the dp/dr i feel on top of the world!!!!!!


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## Tom Servo (Sep 19, 2005)

Des said:


> DP/DR = a symptom
> 
> neglecting:
> your true feelings hence self-actualization
> ...


"Depersonalization disorder appears to be a distinct psychiatric disorder, not just a part of anxiety, depression, borderline personality, or some other psychiatric condition, Daphne Simeon, M.D., an associate professor of psychiatry at Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York City and another of the few researchers scrutinizing depersonalization, told Psychiatric News."

Wow. Apparently she doesn't know what she's talking about.


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

But there's a difference between depersonalization disorder and depersonalization as a symptom. Dp Disorder is pretty rare from what I can tell, and I'm also of the idea that the majority of dp/dr is anxiety related. Good thread and fighting the anxiety is as far as I can see the main way out of all of this.


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## kchendrix (Feb 28, 2005)

I think he is right and sometimes now when I am feeling close to normal , the fear kicks in, what Am I so afraid of that I would choose to be disconnected like this, Anxiety brought all of this on... So I should do what I fear instead of making it a bigger monster.

I believe that in some aspects we choose to remain like this and suffer because it is easier the living. It doesn't feel as good, but you don't feel much of anything like this.

I know someones is going to be pissed off when I say I wonder if we choose to remain stuck.... but I do wonder if on some level we will ourselves to stay this way instead of letting go and going for the ride called life....


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## jft (Jan 10, 2005)

There sure does seem to be that relationship somewhere with anxiety and dr/dp. But I too have spent many years working on my anxiety. Four therapists, all long term, could not help me touch thedp/dr. All four worked directy with anxiety, and some others (psychotherapsits) efforts worked with childhood issues, self esteeme etc. I tried all known anxiety reduction techniques such as flooding, exposure, habituation, biofeedback, relaxation techniues, orthomolecular vitamin therapy, vigorous excercise, diets, cbt, rational emotive therapy, became deepely spiritual for five years.. I tried msot of the antidepressants and all the benzoes and even some atypical antipsychotics. And yes I even went out and got a life many times over, thank you. But the short of it is that anxiety was addressed and reduced. General well being increased. But dp/dr was never touched. I also quit focusing on symptoms years ago. I do not dwell on symptoms. I still have dr/dp and it comes with no triggers.

I do not doubt anyone who makes claims like the above posts and am happy things have gotten better for them. But at same time, it behooves me to understand why it is so tenacious here for so many when some like me have covered all those bases along time ago. Dp/dr is a separate entity for me. It may at one time been more closely linked dynamically to anxiety and obsession, who knows, but now it is its own beast regardless. I do not know how to understand any differently,
jft


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

I have to say as a 15 year ( give or take, at this point I try not to "celebrate" the anniversary :? )survivor of DR, I have to agree with Tom and JFT. I no longer suffer any undue anxiety from all my prior behavior patterns...

"Focusing on the symptom gets you further away from THE PROBLEM.

The SYMPTOM becomes the problem...

And you start to think that DP/DR is the problem...And you moan about:

fluorescent lights 
fast moving objects 
buildings crashing on you 
melting with yourself 
anxiety 
etc 
etc

You have a problem. And it is not DP. It is anxiety.

Anxious to flee - anxious to kill. You are a rabbit caught in a light. Trembling with fear - rationalizing away the sensations. You see the guy with the gun and light. A normal rabbit would run! And what we are doing is thinking about that bloody light... "

Been there, did it, stopped.

I do have a life... a pretty big one, actually. I suffer bouts of anxiety only when they are going to do something like give me a spinal epidural ( :shock: scared me bad! ) and other normal times when anxiety is to be expected.

And yet, and yet I say, I tell you my world "looks" the same way it has all those moons ago. I have DR. I do not have anxiety.

I do agree for those that have not come to some kind of "peace" with the beast, that all the things that are recommended to calm anxiety/dp/dr down are exactly what works. I just can't agree on the which came first, the chicken or the egg, issue.

So that is how it is for me. I hope for all those who are suffering badly at this point, they can someday at least reach peace, if not complete cure.

Most sincerely,
terri
SBC Solidarity


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## Tom Servo (Sep 19, 2005)

I have fairly normal anxiety levels, I'm rarely depressed, and I have a life that I really enjoy. I also have DPD. I found the thread annoying if not downright insulting. If you cure a DPD person of all their anxiety, you'll have an anxiety-free person with DPD. Even in the realm of a DP/DR forum, DPD is misunderstood. Amazing.

From http://www.onlineparadigm.com/archives/233-SP03_BD.pdf :

"The prevalence of *DPD in the general population is notknown, but it is probably more common than its usual label
as a ?rare? disorder implies. Indirect estimates suggest 1 or
2 percent prevalence, not unlike schizophrenia or bipolardisorder*, yet DPD is rarely diagnosed. There are probably
several factors that figure into the underdiagnosis of the
condition. Limited familiarity on the part of many
clinicians; a patient tendency to be reluctant about
symptom disclosure due to fear of not being understood,
sounding ?crazy? or a difficulty in putting depersonalization
experiences into words; and a *tendency of clinicians to
diagnose depersonalization as a variant of ?depression? or
?anxiety? ? even when the diagnosis of a distinct condition
is clearly warranted." *

"[The first depersonalization experience ] can be after a
prolonged period of severe stress and adjustment efforts or
after a traumatic event with the initial episode of another
mental condition such as panic disorder or depression. However,* when these resolve the depersonalization continues."*


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## LISA NICHOLS (Sep 3, 2005)

this is the thing everyone says its cause by stress i have had it since i were 5/6 what kind of stress can a 5/6 year old have to trigger these off?????? i had a happy childhood from what i can remember


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## Tom Servo (Sep 19, 2005)

LISA NICHOLS said:


> this is the thing everyone says its cause by stress i have had it since i were 5/6 what kind of stress can a 5/6 year old have to trigger these off?????? i had a happy childhood from what i can remember


Monsters under the bed! That's about all I can remember worrying about at that age. Oh, and getting a tetanus shot. I hated those.

5 or 6? You've had this since you were 5 or 6?


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

> "[The first depersonalization experience ] can be after a
> prolonged period of severe stress and adjustment efforts or
> after a traumatic event with the initial episode of another
> mental condition such as panic disorder or depression. However, when these resolve the depersonalization continues."


that's not necessarily true. some people have recovered here when they resolved their underlying issues.

sure beats discussing symptoms all day...


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## bright23 (Jun 6, 2005)

Discussing symptoms is really easy, no work required there.

Following some of your suggestions Person3, "asking crush out..." that is the WORK. And many people here are not yet putting work into their own recovery. So they remain sick.

Many of us who have recovered fully from DP/DR did it kicking and screaming all the way through. But in the end, WE HAD TO CHANGE SOME THINGS IN OUR LIVES. Different things for each of us, but it always had to do with the parts of ourselves we had neglected and covered over that continued to keep HAUNTING us until we faced them.

And once we began facing those unwanted and distasteful parts of ourselves, our lives very gradually improved.

ASK ANY RECOVERED PERSON HERE. IT NEVER WAS THE RIGHT COMBINATION OF DRUGS THAT SOLVED ALL OF OUR PROBLEMS. IT BEGAN WHEN WE TOOK ON FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUR OWN RECOVERY.


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

actually when you combine ecstacy and coke you get a massive---

oh wait nevermind

that's not productive is it

well during my dp career i had a lot more fun combining various street drugs than combining prescriptions, i guess because none of that stuff was going to cure me.

but god damn, guys. i could be the AUTHORITY on dpd here. I could have done research on every man, woman, child, and abortion (*) in search of more info on dee pee dee. I could publish papers. I could tell you that you couldn't cure dp without curing the anxiety or that the anxiety and the dp are unrelated or that you put the lime in the coconut and drink it all up and ASKDGIJHAIOWENASIDGDS IT DOESNT MATTER!

But good ol' kicking and screaming...

I'll tell you...For a year or two I lived in an awful blur of hell. Where things were "stabilized". Not super bad and not great at all. I went through many days in half-existence, laid low, got a bit of fun, logged hours on the internet...still had DP, drugs helped the symptoms a little...progress? barely.

I didn't do any WORK on my self. I didn't know HOW to do any work on myself. I didn't know WHAT THE HELL TO DO. I would have posted the same, two or three years ago, to Des, with something like "you are a daft bastard who obviously doesn't know dpd and all the scholarly research involved in it etc etc"

But for me to tell the truth to some of the men and women in my life whom I was manipulating? For me to admit to A LOT of lies? For me to do things that scared the crap out of me? I didn't do it. I didn't know that was a solution.

Two/three years ago, I still thought that once i got outta DP jail, i'd go right back to trying to date a certain guy and go right back to some college major I was in for the wrong reasons (basically ones of narcissistic nature), and that I would SHOW all those people who thought i was crazy, i'd show them when i became successful and healthy, and I would go right back to getting the hell out of town and going to the coast to complete my dreams.

And I really hate that I keep harping on Mr Des, but a little post of his put a big dent in my plans, and probably saved my life. (Janine had many a wonderful post as well, but i wouldn't really understand what she was saying [except for blah blah blah don't self monitor blah blah KIDDING JANINE  ] until this guy came along, and i really wish the old board wasn't gone because Jewels posts helped me very much as well)

he basically said things like "do what you're afraid of"
"be honest, tell people how you REALLY feel instead of being an actor"

and really, it wasn't Des's words; people in all SORTS of recovery programs say that stuff every day. But no one ever brought it to the attention of the DP'd folk.

and he said something about how your world would become beautiful and scary.

and i really thought about this one. a few months later, after reading a book about honesty, i started really implementing this stuff.

my time was up. i had to start telling people how i felt. i had to start doing things like saying NO when I didn't want to do something they asked me to. I had to learn to tell people why i was upset instead of just avoiding them (i'm still stuck on stuff like this, don't get me wrong). i had to play less control games and realize that my manipulations didn't work. i had to actually leave the house to go out into the world and possibly make a FOOL out of myself. I had to take risks, like play in a group sport i wasn't good at (instead of hanging out with a bunch of people i KNEW i could impress). I had to live some of the dreams i always had in my head (like singing in public and taking an acting class.) I had to LIVE this life, because there was no end to the amount of time DP would stay if i waited for its departure before i started living again.

all that started a year and a half ago, give or take.

how was that last year and a half, compared to the years before that of hellish but predictable complacence?

well, honestly, the last year and a half has been the absolute worst hell ever. I have had bouts of the bloodiest of bloodiest anxiety, e-mails to trusted friends of "I AM REALLY GONNA KILL MYSELF THIS TIME LIFE WILL NEVER GET BETTER AAAAAGH!", I have had MASSIVE dissapointments, sick relationships, horrifying family fights, prescription drug abuse, my world turned upside down every five minutes, emails to a certain DP board member with message titles such as "HELP HELP HELP", "PLEEEEEEEEEEEASE HELP" and "AAAAGH HELP!"

I have had times of curling up on the cold bathroom floor at school, crashing out on random couches, fits of screaming, crying rage in the hands of well-meaning strangers, xanax induced twilight tranquility a few hours later, misfortune upon misfortune upon misfortune and EVERY DAY A GOD DAMNED BLOODY PANIC THAT HURT LIKE A MOTHER FUCK ER

so, do i regret it?

no. I am thankful for it with every fiber of my being. I didn't realize how MUCH i would be kicking and screaming. YES, life has been SO, INCREDIBLY scary, like Des promised in that post...

but it has been beautiful too, like he said.

I believe, i HOPE, that i have started to make some of the first REAL friends I have ever had. I have accomplished SO many different things I really couldn't count them all. I met a ton of new friends, teachers, and other great people. I have had some of the craziest experiences...I got out feelings to people that I kept inside me for half a decade...i got to sing in public 8)

I learned about myself.

I became more trusting of myself (well, at least a tiny bit)

I started to see (and break away, hopefully it will last) from many of the sick relationships i was in and I have become more keen at spotting new ones before they get far

I have started to set boundaries.

I have accepted some really lame psychobabble terms like "setting boundaries".

I have gotten to know my family better.

I have done so many things i was afraid of, and i had fun at them. i became a better dancer, a better listener (well, a TINY bit), and hopefully a better friend.

I actually ask people how THEY are. sometimes.

and you know what? last night i went out to a party that held NO expectatiosn for me, that held NO chance of meeting a guy or being recognized for whatever greatness I feel I have, just a party with people I used to cast off as completely boring.

and last night i had fun.

i feel that little change has been like a deliverance from the depths of hell. the depths of my own hell.

that subtle, TINY, change took a year and a half of the most gut wrenching horrors outside of DP itself (i was not cured from DP at all, but these horrors were different).

That little change cost my family hundreds of dollars in therapy (although therapy is not where I healed anyway), as well as hundreds of dollars on some pretty interesting medical procedures ( the lighter one being a crowdsurfing accident because I drunkenly decided that I needed to confront my fear of crowdsurfing 8) got dropped on my tailbone, dang)

that little change cost most of my entire way of life.

that little change cost me an incredible amount of heartache and tears, mostly over my own expectations and delusions.

but that change represented a glimpse into REALITY, where i was a small part of a bigger world and not in my own fantasy world.

yes. kicking and screaming. it has been catastrophic. but it has also been so much fun, even in those catastrophic moments, even in the drug induced craziness, even in the bad breakups it has been SO MUCH MORE INCREDIBLY AMAZING THAN SITTING AT THE GOD DAMNED COMPUTER PROVING TO PEOPLE THAT DPD COULD ONLY BE CURED IN SUCH AND SUCH WAY AND THAT WHOEVER OBJECTED TO THAT IDEA, RECOVERED OR NOT, WAS MEAN WRONG AND INSENSITIVE AND GOD DAMNIT I WOULD RATHER BE RIGHT THAN BE HAPPY!

(but do acutal work to change myself? naaaaaaaaah, don't need to do that. I'll just wait for a cure.)

slowly clawing and scratching for the slightest scraps of change, rising and falling on the way, taking some risks and learning, although hellish, has also been the ride of my life, has taken me to places physically and mentally i would have NEVER imagined years ago...

so. if you want to sit here and worry about the definition of DP and what the good doctors of the world say, great. you have a master's thesis.

but if you want this stuff to have any benefit for your SELF, you're gonna have to forget about ALL of that shit and start doing things that you would never imagine doing.

the things you fear most.

anything else would be suicide.

*phrase lovingly stolen from someone who saved me when i was responsible and killed me when i wasn't


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## Tom Servo (Sep 19, 2005)

"...SITTING AT THE GOD DAMNED COMPUTER PROVING TO PEOPLE THAT DPD COULD ONLY 
BE CURED IN SUCH AND SUCH WAY AND THAT WHOEVER OBJECTED
TO THAT IDEA, RECOVERED OR NOT, WAS MEAN WRONG AND 
INSENSITIVE AND GOD DAMNIT I WOULD RATHER BE RIGHT THAN 
BE HAPPY!"

You got that right! Like in that original post in which that guy made the pronouncement that:

" DP/DR = a symptom 
neglecting: your true feelings hence self-actualization 
THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE DOING! 
CURE: GET A LIFE!"


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## LISA NICHOLS (Sep 3, 2005)

yeah dont get me wrong i dont wallow in self pity and spend alll my life watching all the topics on this forum lol 

i do force myself to go out god if i didnt i would be a hermit believe me!!

ok fair enough i may freak out nine times outta ten and likely to pay for it the next day or so but at least i got out !!!!!


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

This is my fact.

The first time I had DR, I had no idea what it was. I just saw a GP off and on for 1 year while he put me thru a battery of every test he could think of. She "sees" funny? hmmm...opthomologist. No. Well how about a CT scan. No. Well how about some bloodwork. On and on and on. Nothing was ever solved. I did like every person here and drove myself crazier wondering what it was I was dying of, why did I see those floaters, why did I look funny in the mirror, why did everything look wierd? I lived for year sobbing on the couch and like someone else said the other day, on the bathroom floor.

Then, as my story goes, I was driving over to a friend's house and boom!, it just lifted. The damn stuff just lifted. Everything looked right. I felt right.

And I continued that way, without all these ideas we offer people ( which I firmly believe in to relieve the anxiety and to learn how to cope and hope that they will eventually "cure" me.), to live a happy existance for about 3 years when BOOM!, it hit again. This time, with therapy, meds, thinking outward, the whole damn nine yards I can assure you, I have remained with DR for around 15 years.

That is my fact. That is "the mess that is me". Please do not belittle me in to feeling as if I have not done enough to get out of this hell.

All the facts can work. They also can not.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2005)

I believe that DP/DR are symptoms of Anxiety, Depression, Stress, DRUG ABUSE, and things of that nature.

just having DP/DR with nothing else is very very very rare from what ive been told and have read.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Tom Servo said:


> I have fairly normal anxiety levels, I'm rarely depressed, and I have a life that I really enjoy. I also have DPD. I found the thread annoying if not downright insulting. If you cure a DPD person of all their anxiety, you'll have an anxiety-free person with DPD. Even in the realm of a DP/DR forum, DPD is misunderstood. Amazing.
> 
> From http://www.onlineparadigm.com/archives/233-SP03_BD.pdf :
> 
> ...


Interesting discussion which I missed somehow. I agree with feeling insulted, though in my case I DO have depression, my anxiety (low level GAD) keeps humming along and these things have been dogging me my whole life... pushing the ol' 47 years :shock:

I think that in many cases... I know such people... if a primary condition is treated, secondary DP/DR symptoms go away. I also find that the true definition of Primary DP/DR doesn't make sense, and the IoP has found it to be rare as I understand it.

My sense is, I'll use my case only, the ability to dissociate is an unfortunate "gift." For those of us who slip into this abyss in the course of another illness, it may be more difficult to climb out of it. I see it as very "conditioned" in my case.

This is the Million Dollar question, but my sense is that DP/DR is indeed secondary to other disorders, HOWEVER, it is indeed insulting to say, "Go on, get a life" and the symptoms will go away.

The years I pushed myself the hardest to "get a life" and I accomplished a LOT, were sheer torture. And as Tom and Terri have noted, one can have a full life and still have this infernal DP/DR for YEARS.

We are all unique.
Sorry rambling a bit here.
D :shock: 8)


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

terri said:


> That is my fact. That is "the mess that is me". Please do not belittle me in to feeling as if I have not done enough to get out of this hell.


*And terri's experience is equally valid. And it always mystifies me how these symptoms/disorders have lives of their OWN. There are strange onsets, remissions, returns of the symptom with a vengeance for no particular reason, etc.

I firmly believe, whatever DP/DR ... primary or secondary ... they are a neurological blip/malfunction whatever. One cannot "will this away" by "getting a life."*

After having this crap for years myself, granted with a different set of circumstances, I have no doubt in my mind that this is a medical condition.

We each do the best we can with it.

"Get a Life" is indeed the most insulting comment. :roll:

Sigh.
D


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## bright23 (Jun 6, 2005)

Thanks for your last post Person3, I can see its coming from a very deep and honest place.


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

ugh i was in a weird mood when i wrote it, i woke up today about to apologize for sounding about as sane as Howard dean :O

Terri, I hope I wasn't invalidating you...it wasn't really directed to you at all.


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Hi Person3,

I've been ruminating ( :lol: ) about my post, which was directed at the whole thread, and I would like to change my wording from don't belittle me to I felt belittled.

Noone can make us feel a way but ourselves...I think I heard my shrink say something like that somewhere along the lines. Anyway, I do take responsibilty for my mental reaction to the written word.

But...I still agree with myself on the rest. :lol:


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## DM (Aug 12, 2004)

?!

People, relax. I am here sometimes. Wrote something down last week and I see there are some emotional reactions (allergies) to this text. I am simply trying to help. I am not here for help or to make others feel miserable.

I am simply telling my story and with some people (still around here) I feel very emotionally connected...

Well...

I was instituationalized for a bloody year with DP/DR symptoms (some 13 years ago). My symptoms were that harsh that I was put immediately into a hospital as the doctors were thinking that I was psychotic. I was put on Haldol, Fevarin and other stuff (mixtures of anti-psychotics and anti-depressants).

After a couple of months (once they concluded that I was sane and had _simply_ DP/DR) I was put into a clinic to get intense psychotherapy 24/7 (for a year!).

And I freaked out when the 'staff' told me exactly the same thing as I have written down here. Fo a whole year I was told that nothing was wrong with me! And I felt like shit! Can you believe me? Well, you guys can!

I was very angry with everybody. They all told me (day in, day out) that:
I was okay
Nothing wrong with you chap
You do not need any pills 
You will not get any prescription medication (and they did it)
You are a cheat
You are manipulative person
Just do it
Live you life
Enjoy your life
Stop moaning
etc. etc.

Then I said to myself that the worst thing that could happen to me was to become psychotic - I was living in a hell and what the hell..Becoming psychotic sounded like paradise. Not knowing that I was DP'ed sounded like heaven.

And because I was angry with my situation and did not care anymore about the bloody symptom I started to live. Felt like I was on LSD while walking the mall, or cycling, or driving, or speaking to others.

I melted with my environment (people, buildings) and with myself (when I touched myself it was a goofy melting feeling). I did not feel any anxiety, except for the anxiety for DP! I was not anxious! Told myself...

Once I entered the ring and said to myself to hell with everything and everyone (I was really pissed off AND DESPERATE) and started to behave sometimes as an asshole and sometimes as a saint things started to change. In my environment and within me. And with DP. Really strange. Within four months time I was able to walk the streets again, go into a mall, dancing etc. The more I did those things, however, the more I felt that I was missing something. I enrolled again in university and started to fill up the _emotional_ voids in my life. Scary stuff. Axiety. I avoided many things because I was scared. And DP/DR was a result. And starting doing it again...I was living again.

I was always living up to expectations - I was the perfect student. I had everything under control - in my head. I made so many stupid mistakes - mostly beacause I was so self-centered and hedonostic. I avoided everything - everything which made me really happy (once I felt it).

When I say GET A LIFE - I say GET A LIFE = YOUR LIFE. It was not my intention to insult anyone. Get your life - get it back. There is no DP which will stop you - if you beat that monster.

Anxiety - yes, it is a blanket. I covers up fear. It gives you an excuse to live a self-constructed rational life. DP gets a problem in the end, as DP becomes the problem. Because you have DP there are things you are not able to do...And you start avoiding it - and you start to feed (by this) the monster creating DP.

Mount Sinai? Oh yes - causally there is a change in brain chemistry. Of course! Tell yourself that you wil die in 10 years time. Start to believe it - your psychical system will respond accordingly. Your psychological system will react accordingly. And probably (bets are much less than 1) that you will die in ten years time. Change in brain chemistry - absolutely! When you drink a sixpack there is also a change in brain chemistry...But is it the hand or the brain causing it?

I think that DP/DR is a symptom caused by genetical and psychological factors. Like alcoholism.

Is it an illness or something you can control? If you believe it is an illness go on and fight for recognition! If you believe it is something you can control - try to beat it...

I chose the second option. And it worked for me.


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## jft (Jan 10, 2005)

I again say that I am thrilled that folks like person and bright have found their way out. But I too feel like Terri in that after reading your posts I am being implored to view myself like a sloth and an ignoramus for my lack of effort and misguided direction, which is light years from the truth.

I do not think you can generalize from a success story or two or ten to the whole of the world. If so then MT. Sinai and London would have us all doing cartwheels. A couple posts above made for great undergraduate idealistic psychology theme papers. I would have given an A+ to them. ( I do not say this to be mean, I jsut remember writing alot of these myself in school and realized later in life just how idelaistic I was). But lets not be so arrogant as to assume our formulas apply to the world. They worked great for you, and this is wonderful. And they are very therapeutic for anybody, dp people or not. In fact they are the core of Rational Emotive Therapy (Albert Ellis) which has helped thousands.

What I am saying is that you guys wrote great stuff. And all humans should look into those RET principles. And there is nothing wrong in espousing your views in hope others can be helped. It can do nothing but help people of all sorts. But people like Terri and I have been there and done that. And we still suffer from dp/dr. And yes we are still talking about symptoms. But we do not need any mroe guilt.

jft


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## bright23 (Jun 6, 2005)

Thanks for sharing, keep coming back!


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## Tom Servo (Sep 19, 2005)

Hey, wait a minute! DES... D.E.S. Daphne E. Simeon!!!! I think I see what's going on here Dr. Simeon. And you would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for these meddling kids.


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

Tom, you deserve a Scooby Snack. :lol:


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## Tom Servo (Sep 19, 2005)

sleepingbeauty said:


> Tom, you deserve a Scooby Snack. :lol:


Rank rou!


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## Kerio (Sep 13, 2004)

Dreamer said:


> After having this crap for years myself, granted with a different set of circumstances, I have no doubt in my mind that this is a medical condition.
> 
> We each do the best we can with it.
> 
> ...


I have to say I totally agree with Dreamer on this. I mean, Des, I agree about the "Get out there and get it done" mindset, but to say that just living our life will cure it is bollocks. It doesn't apply to everyone. I got DP at 12, and I topped my class in elementary school even with it. Then I went up to High School, was in a debate, played basketball, was in the military band, got several awards for essays, and went up to Junior College, joined the basketball team, aced my General paper and did well in most other subjects, found myself the best friend ever, and then went on to be conscripted into the Army (Which was hell) for 2.5 years. Started working, and have done so for 3 years (without keeping the same job for more than a year partly because of DP, partly because of my own immature psychological development I suppose). And now, I've signed up for a diploma and a direct honors degree and starting work on getting a future instead of just a life.

But now, 14 years later, I still feel exactly the same as I did 14 years ago. The same blurriness, the same 'second-hand' feelings, the grainy quality of life which makes being in a flower field feel like I'm just staring at a picture. I have loads of interesting experiences, and loads of bad experiences, and I definitely agree with getting out there to live life, even if it scares you - but to say it's caused by not living life is just not true. I didn't wallow in my self-pity or think that I needed to cure DP at 12 years old - I didn't even know what the hell was happening to me, much less the medical term. I only discovered it last year.

Don't do the equivalent of seeing a barbarian on a boat and setting the entire boat on fire, because there may be other people on board as well. We all do our best, like Dreamer said.


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## DM (Aug 12, 2004)

I believe that DP/DR is a biological phenomenon triggered by psychological factors.

I tried very hard to convince others that it was purely biological. That I was ill.

And I was very wrong in MY case. Fortunately, because it was psychological I could reverse the proces. I was able to control it. I lost my despair and my feeling that I was delivered to the will of the Gods.

If you believe that in your case no psychological factors triggered your DP/DR then you should not feel offended by my words as I am talking solely to people who think (or know or are open to the suggestion) they have psychologically induced DP/DR. I do not know anything about DP/DR as an illness on its own and I find it very hard to imagine that something like that exists. But, that?s me?I have seen dozens of people with DP/DR telling me the same (and I was one of them) and they all concluded (for some it took a couple of months and for some years and years) that it was something out-of-their-control. That feeling of not being in control feeds anxiety even more and hence DP/DR.

If you have biological DP/DR you should go to a neurologist for a full check-up. The tests will show anomalities in your neurological household. And there are very good meds (for example anti-epileptics) which calm down neurological malfunctions. And before you get angry with me again: I am honest here - I had all the check-ups myself and once everything physical was excluded I had to accept that it had to be something else.


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## bright23 (Jun 6, 2005)

The larger issue here, is that we each have our own individual history, and everybody's symptoms are a little bit different. And here we are trying to communicate with each other, and give each other advice.

It's impossible to say anything of substance, or helpful by holding everybody's hand at the same time.

If you've had DP/DR for 15 years straight, I'm sorry, that's terrible, but understand there's many people here who's symptomology is more responsive to something more along the lines of, "go out and do what you fear most."

If this advice makes you feel more guilty JFT, well then, that's really your problem. If you want to shoot our metheod "let's not assume our formulas apply to the world..." well, these formulas WORK for many, not all. They're just suggestions, take it or leave it.

Try to get outside of yourself for a bit, there's a lot of people here that need help, and I don't see where your pessimistic attitude is contributing anything helpful to the newcomer.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

bright23 said:


> *The larger issue here, is that we each have our own individual history, and everybody's symptoms are a little bit different.* And here we are trying to communicate with each other, and give each other advice.
> 
> It's impossible to say anything of substance, or helpful by holding everybody's hand at the same time.
> 
> ...


"A little bit different."????? Some of us have VASTLY different experiences here.

So those of us who have chronic DP/DR, who also need to get advice on coping from OTHERS with the same problem, shouldn't post because it's too "negative"? I've found that to be the case.

I'm not feeling sorry for myself for having this my whole life, but making *a blanket statement* that is apparently addressed to everyone, is different from saying, "Hey, in my case, which is X, this really helped."

I often feel I shouldn't post about my experience because of this. I do anyway, but I always say, "This is MY experience".



Des said:


> If you have biological DP/DR you should go to a neurologist for a full check-up. The tests will show anomalities in your neurological household. And there are very good meds (for example anti-epileptics) which calm down neurological malfunctions. And before you get angry with me again: I am honest here - I had all the check-ups myself and once everything physical was excluded I had to accept that it had to be something else.


Des, I've had my "neurological household" inspected since I was 15 and I'm now nearly 47, LOL, which means I was born in 1958 when neurology/neruopsychiatry was really in its infancy.

There ARE tests that show the neurological activity of DP/DR in the brain as well as many other mental illnesses. Not seeing something on an EEG or CAT scan does not mean that there won't be more advanced means of seeing this phenomena on machines that haven't been built yet.

SPECT and fMRI/MRI are expensive. They are used more for looking for aneurysms/brain tumors, etc. But MRIs, fMRIs and SPECT DO show variations in the brains of those w/DP/DR as well as those with other mental illness. There are also changes visible in those who have HPPD.

Here goes my example again. They have been working to cure AIDS, find a vaccine against ONE virus, the HIV virus since the early 1980s. I was in college then. There is still no cure, no vaccine and AIDS is decimating certain areas of the world.

Doesn't mean one day they won't figure it out. But that was some 26 years ago when they first started looking into AIDs. Trying to understand where it CAME from.

The brain is infinintely complex. Far more complex from ONE little virus, and they can't figure that virus out!

It is painful when you make a *general comment about YOUR experience when each of us has a unique experience.*

There are a number of "longtimers" here. We are allowed to say our piece as well. I don't say, "I never got cured and so no one else here will!" I never say that. I'm merely telling my own experience. I research the medical/neurological aspects of this all the time.

Read any number of current books/publications. Research into altered states of consciousness are on the rise. And what are the folks at the IoP and Mt. Sinai doing? Have they made up the fact that there could be a medical component to this.

And yes, I'm on meds. There is NO ONE MED that "cures" DP.

Oh, no reason to argue this.
We all have the right to speak our minds here. Some of us have had this for years. Others yes will return to reality. Those of us who *might not, or haven't yet* need to share our experiences with each other as well.

D


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

So, yes, yes... some felt it was a blanket statement...others didn't or didn't mean for it to...ping pong, then your gone, Leon. I do understand the in's and outs of this thread. I think both sides made their points. Talk is good, huh? 

So hey, last night, while thinking of this thread, two Beatle songs came to mind..."Whatever gets you thru the night, it's alright, it's alright..." and then, for some strange reason..."Everybody's got something to hide except for me and my monkey." Go figure. :roll:

( I do wonder about the monkey song. :? )


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## DM (Aug 12, 2004)

> So hey, last night, while thinking of this thread, two Beatle songs came to mind..."Whatever gets you thru the night, it's alright, it's alright..." and then, for some strange reason..."Everybody's got something to hide except for me and my monkey."


Terri is right. Two schools of thought playing ping-pong. I rest my case.

*.*


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Heyyyyyyyyy!!! I rested our/my case first! :lol:

Actually, Dreamer did when she said there was no reason to argue this.

We play well with others here...sometimes. :wink:


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## LISA NICHOLS (Sep 3, 2005)

well said dreamer !!!!!!!!


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## jft (Jan 10, 2005)

I need to apologize for my comment on the "idealistic undergraduate theme paper" in my above post.. It bothered me l today that I stuck that in my post last night. A theme that reoccurs with me when I am weak is that when I feel insulted personally I pull out the grenade and throw it in passive anger. That is mostly what that comment was about. I sensed one post above maybe had the same dynamic directed towards me. It is amazing to me how many interpersonal confrontations, including lovers quarrels, have this dynamic to them. It is silly for me after all these years to still do this. The grenade rarely has anything to do with the issue at hand. So I apologize.

I think Dreamer and Terri and whoever else above summed up the thread well. All of us have something good to say. Lets keep saying it, and in a continued attitude of support, no matter where we are at in our struggle.
jft


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## bright23 (Jun 6, 2005)

Likewise, my last response came from a sore place JFT. We have THAT in common.

I think Dreamer's suggestion of always qualifying personal experience in recovery with "This has been my experience, it might or might not work for you" is very helpful, and could have saved us from this whole misunderstanding. I'm going to incorporate it into my future posts.


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

give me another five days and i'll apologize

(female problems)


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

P3, *that* is funny. :lol:

Oh, and we'll wait. :?

(Seriously kidding)

 
t*


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

So is DES really Dr. Simeon, someone associated with the Mt. Sinai program, or was that a joke.

Sojourner, who is a bit slow today (to match the gray and weeping skies, but who isn't weeping herself)


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

jesus fuck ing christ sojourner, nothing is wrong with your damn face! you have no excuse to isloate in your damn house!

and NO they were joking...Dr Simeon never had dp/dr, not the same person


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## Da'Burgh (Apr 25, 2005)

LISA NICHOLS said:


> i totally disagree with you about its just anxiety how can it be when all im doing is sitting reading, watching television, even having a nice relaxing bath i aint anxious at all
> 
> i know what anxiety is believe me i feel anxious because of the dp/dr when i dont have the dp/dr i feel on top of the world!!!!!!


The dp is masking your anxiety. Also, it's kind of like dp is an anxiety "hangover". Your mind was put into a dissociative state. I needs to work it's way out. Eliminate anxiety completely, and you have your cure.


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## bright23 (Jun 6, 2005)

"Eliminate anxiety completely..."

Don't think this is humanly possible or really desirable. Is "reduce anxiety to a manageable level" more of what you mean?


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## Da'Burgh (Apr 25, 2005)

I'd say it's desirable, but probably not possible. Anxieties happen all the time, it's just how you learn to react to them. You get what I'm saying though. Lower that anxiety. The dp will go away. I've almost gotten rid of it, I know you can too.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2005)

As I was reading through this thread from beginning to end, I came upon a post by Des which said she believed dp is a biological phenomenon triggered by psychological factors. That's along the lines of what I was thinking.I have known for a few years that mine is largely psychological. A few times I have said to myself, "I could just pitch everything and go to France" and allowed myself a short fantasy of freedom from both money worries and lifelong sense of being an outcast. Most of the times I really embraced these fantasies or when I convinced myself I had nothing to lose if I did what I wanted, my dp dropped sharply, but was always shortlived. Responsibility means more than my freedom right now. 
I want to say more, but my brain is shutting down. Where else could I say that and have it understood? BG


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## DM (Aug 12, 2004)

> I could just pitch everything and go to France" and allowed myself a short fantasy of freedom from both money worries and lifelong sense of being an outcast.Most of the times I really embraced these fantasies or when I convinced myself I had nothing to lose if I did what I wanted, my dp dropped sharply, but was always shortlived. Responsibility means more than my freedom right now.


Beachgirl, exactly the same with me. On the old board I have written comments in which I hailed to listen personal feelings and by that spontaneous action, to be impulsive etc. as tools which can help in psychologically induced DP/DR. That is why I am using the metaphor of the scared rabbit all the time. That is (in my humble opinion) DP/DR. Scared to do what a normal person with normal emotional responses would do.

Every time I felt that everything was actually my choice, that I was in the drivers seat the DP poofed away. Within seconds. In the beginning very short (couple of minutes) but by gaining confidence in the power of will and simply doing things my rationality disapproved of BUT my feelings were telling me that that was the correct thing to do DP/DR faded until it disappeared. It still returns though. But in my case it is a signal that I am doing (or making a choice) the real me would never do or would choose. I know the trigger and I accept the fact that it is symptom.

Person3 once described this process as self-actualization. Yes. For people with trauma this is also the case. They are stuck with mental blocks and fears which makes it fairly impossible to lead the live as they would do without it. Be yourself. It is a hard process in which you have to become very honest to yourself AND the world around you. That is very scary and a lot of things will change.

"I could just pitch everything and go to France"

You can. If it is a fantasy (that little voice in your head screaming that it IS a fantasy nothing will happen), if you believe in it and prove that voice that it is not a fantasy but a determination, regardless of the consequences - DP fades. I did it the hard way - I actually sold all my furniture and went to London from Holland. And returned. But I did it. And gained confidence. As beachgirl wrote if you can feel freedom (of choice, of your life) DP melts. It is a glass jar which we put over ourselves as (rational) protection. It is a result of functioning instead of living. A symptom which can become a cause as well (because it limits our belief in our capacities even more). For some it may serve as an excuse as well to not do anything.

This is what Janine describes as the mousetrap. The process in which the symptom takes over the cause and in the mind of the beholder becomes THE CAUSE.

Disclaimer: I believe in psychologically induced DP/DR, I do believe in biological reactions and I AM NOT DAPHNE E. SIMEON. :lol:


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## DM (Aug 12, 2004)

An overlooked thread in Regaining Reality (with the intellectual approval of the honourable Ms Baker :wink: ):

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=945

Thnx to Person3 (praise to her dedication) a thread from the old board:

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=361

I have expressed all my opinions, remedy's and regaining reality tricks in this thread. Cannot share more with you guys :lol:

Please ignore the posts from the excluded Ghost which can be found all over the place here in this forum.


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## Kelson12 (Aug 10, 2004)

Des said:


> An overlooked thread in Regaining Reality (with the intellectual approval of the honourable Ms Baker :wink: ):
> 
> http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=945
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info Des. It is all so true. I just don't know what feelings to comfront and what feelings to act upon and when and how.


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## LISA NICHOLS (Sep 3, 2005)

yeah thanks for info!!! too!!!


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