# A psychologist's perspective on depersonalization - "From Intellectualization to Depersonalization: A Spectrum"



## GroupHug

http://www.afterpsychotherapy.com/intellectualization-depersonalization/

Thoughts?


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## Guest

The way he described feeling like just a set of eyes is exactly the way I feel most of the time. And I do often feel like that I'm trying to escape myself, but that's impossible, so depersonalizing is the next best thing.

Excellent read, thanks for finding this~!

I'm going to show this article to my psychologist I do believe. The first thing I asked him was if he knew anything about DP, and he said no so I quickly moved on, but I feel this can give him a good sense of what it's like for me, and likely why it's occurring.


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## CindyinMontana

Interesting article, thanks for the post. I especially got a lot out of the comments posted below it.


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## GroupHug

Antimony said:


> The way he described feeling like just a set of eyes is exactly the way I feel most of the time. And I do often feel like that I'm trying to escape myself, but that's impossible, so depersonalizing is the next best thing.
> 
> Excellent read, thanks for finding this~!
> 
> I'm going to show this article to my psychologist I do believe. The first thing I asked him was if he knew anything about DP, and he said no so I quickly moved on, but I feel this can give him a good sense of what it's like for me, and likely why it's occurring.


I'm glad I was of some service. I wish you well.



CindyinMontana said:


> Interesting article, thanks for the post. I especially got a lot out of the comments posted below it.


It's a very insightful blog. I think there's a lot of other articles on there that can offer a different perspective on issues to people with DP.


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## CindyinMontana

Someone on here the other day posted this and I would highly recommend it. http://nothingworks.weebly.com/ Be prepared because it's more like a little book in length but I really got a TON out of it. Would love to hear your opinions on it as well. One of the better resources I have seen posted on here.


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## wise

Fearless said:


> haven't read it fully, but this is right on point: " that what defense mechanisms essentially do is divert _attention_ away from sources of pain so that we no longer notice them."
> 
> this is almost the same as dissociation, running away from problems, repressing emotions, cowardice.
> 
> If you're a coward, that's one problem. If you're a coward AND very intelligent, you're fucked, because you'll create so good and logical sounding excuses that you'll believe them.


Coward is such a god awful judgemental label to use, especially since you have no idea what people have gone through on here, some of which have even endured years of childhood sexual abuse. It's really unfair for you to come on here and throw around your labels in some kind of twisted attempt to stimulate people into recovery.


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## GroupHug

edited.


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## wise

GroupHug said:


> Fearless is abrasive (and I don't mean to use that as a pejorative). You're not going to change that. That's his approach. Just accept that.


We don't need any more self-loathing on here. I won't accept the unacceptable. But if he helps you, good on you.


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## GroupHug

.,,


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## peanut butter

wise said:


> *We don't need any more self-loathing on here.* I won't accept the unacceptable. But if he helps you, good on you.


That's funny, but apparently we do seem to need all the "help me pls " x 90000 and other countless self pitying victim threads.


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## wise

mmrrlla said:


> That's funny, but apparently we do seem to need all the "help me pls " x 90000 and other countless self pitying victim threads.


Two wrongs don't make a right. Self pity may not be the best thing but neither is going around telling people they are cowards and lazy for not being able to completely eliminate their dp. DP is the result of being victimized in life so why shame people for expressing that if they have a need to express that?


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## GroupHug

edited.


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## Guest

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## Guest

I feel like you're misinterpreting the article. What I gathered from it is that DP is functionally a defense mechanism against ones emotional, or internal traumas. Normally when something is threatening a person the flight/fight mechanisms kick in and in physically traumatic events it's effective and can play out normally; the threat is a very real tangible thing. Problems arise when you have the flight/fight mechanism reacting to either nonexistent or non-tangible threats.With a panic attack your body, and the person experiencing it, are 100% convinced something in the environment is going to kill them, but they can't find it and thus can't escape it. With emotional trauma your feelings become a threat, even ones you might not recognize. If there is a lot of shame about who you are or intense self loathing, or just powerful emotions that you can't handle, your body is going to see these as a threat to your well being, it doesn't understand their just emotions and can't hurt you; it gets worse if you suppress your feelings because that just confirms them as a threat. Point is, as the emotional issues build and intensify, your body starts to see yourself and all of those dangerous feelings as the threat to it, and it starts trying to escape its self, which is impossible.

So if your in a situation where your body believes it desperately needs to escape it's self and the emotions it's going to do the closest thing possible and depersonalize. With depersonalization people report feeling emotionally numb, having brain fog, a hard time thinking or concentrating, and not recognizing their body as their own on a conscious level, but most importantly feeling cut off from their sense of self. All of these things are ways the body is escaping the self and emotions that the body sees as a threat.

Further, DP's ability to distract you isn't about pulling you out of and making you unaware of horrible situations, it's about pulling you out of your self and away from your emotions. Like I said, DP dose not deal with external threats, since your surgery and the anesthetist are external it has no need to intensify. This why people with cancer can develop PSTD, because the cancer is a tangible external threat which is what PTSD is meant to defend against. They likely wouldn't develop DP because their is no need to escape themselves on an emotional level and emotions are what DP defends against.

You also mentions suffering from depression, and depressions function is to let you know that something in your life isn't working and that you need to take a time out away from other people and distractions and figure out what the problem is and how to fix it. If you treat depression as the problem that needs to be fix, you'll just end up going around in circles, the same thing applies to anxiety and DP, these are all natural responses to issues in our life and they won't stop until those issues are resolved.

Lastly, just understanding that you've suffered abuse doesn't mean anything unless you fix what that abuse broke.


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## Guest

I wasn't trying to call you lazy, I was just trying to make the point that anxiety, depression and DP are all natural processes and they come about for a reason and those reasons need to be fixed before any of them will clear up for good, which is the case 95% of the time. A lot of people on here talk about all 3 like they're some sort of disease that came out of nowhere to ruin their lives, but if they understood themselves and their situations better the path that lead to anxiety, depression and DP would be fairly clear.


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## Guest

Dreamer... give this a try.

Throw away your textbooks, your computer, and your intellect.

And 'feel' your way through.

Cos that's what we've gotta learn here.

How do you 'feel' about what I just said?

P


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## AlexFromPT

Dreamer, you seem to be very intelligent.

Whenever I see your posts here they are very well structured and equally well written, so, my question to you is:

You have this strange and debilitating condition that you are trying to get rid of.
Someone gives you a possible solution and what do you do? You don't even bother "trying" it. Why is that?

Try it! Give it a chance! It won't make matters worse. Aren't you tired of being dissociated?

When I watched Harringtons program it didnt make ANY sense at first. I basically kept it in my computer and procrastinated. Why? Because I didnt now for sure If the program would led me to recoverl AND because it was a shitload of work. HARD work. DP is a cosy place. We sure dont like being dissociated, but would we like to face our pains? Hell no. DP is safe, cosy and our choice. Our intelligence basically interprets it in a harmful way, thus creating loads of other problems.

In the past couple of months Ive been working with the said program and Im definitely improving. Along with some people here Im sure. Also, Im getting more active on these boards and I could not notice the TONS of similarities we, DP sufferers, have.

All of us experienced emotional abuse in different flavors.

Almost all of us might have experienced severe trauma.

We have the habit of repressing our emotions.

We all have some degree of perfectionism/codependency/enmeshment/disease to please/you name it.

We are all creative and intelligent.

There are way more Im sure.

I dont mean to start a debate with you. Just read this and reflect upon it. I wont answer you If you reply with your classic deflective posts. But I respect your choice nonetheless and I also respect you for what you have gone through.

Think about it.


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## Guest

Dreamer.. I have no doubt you're highly intelligent. But you seem stuck in thinking you're incurable (even your therapist has alluded to that). I think people here are honestly just trying to help you shift from that defeated mindset. We're just trying to help. Gosh, some of the posts in this topic are so enlightening. Really good stuff, thanks for sharing ppl's!

You're actually not that much older than me. I'm about to crack a half a century and have been highly dissociative for about 47 years. At 3 years of age 'I'd' already learnt how to leave my body to get away from traumatic/highly stressful events . So.. you're not talking to someone who's new to this by any means. I had no treatment for 44 years.

I suppose I should have said, throw away your intellect, computer and textbooks for just a little while. Sorry, but I didn't meant throw them away for ever.

I thought it was interesting you answered my question about how you 'feel' (about what I'd written) with a thought, and not a feeling at all. To 'disagree' isn't a feeling. I was expecting you to write something like "I'm angry about what you've written!"

Am I right to think you don't believe there's any cure for your dp/dr?

P


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## GroupHug

> ? re: "intercourse .... "


sperm is involved and then a child is born


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## Guest

Dreamer* said:


> The key is I have never seen the DP/DR as a "protective mechanism" of any kind. When I was a child, or now. I thought that therapy would make it go away. Until I found others on the internet when I was forty I thought I was the only one in the world that had it.


Do you still believe dp/dr is not a protective mechanism of our minds? If not, can I ask why you don't believe that?


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## GroupHug

One of his better ideas imho was in his perspective on cocaine.


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## Guest

Something important to remember is that everything behind the fight/flight response is 100s of millions of years old, while human levels of mental complexity have only been around for only several hundred thousand at least. Considering the pace evolution moves at, that's nearly enough time for something as ingrained as flight/fight to adapt. To put that in perspective the parts of are brain that control flight/fight are found in lizards.

Point is, the flight/fight mechanism for nearly all of it's existence only had to respond to physical and external threats. In practice what it's really responding to are stress and fear. Flight/fight is blind and stupid, it dose not consider what is CAUSING the stress and fear because that would take precious seconds needed for survival. It gets the signals of stress and fear and reacts in the only way it can. For a lizard, the only things that really cause it any sort of stress are predators, or juts things that are physically harmful to it and that's what flight/fight has evolved to handle.

Now lets get back to humans; we still have the same flight/fight mechanism the lizard has, but now we're demanding that it deal with things other than predators or that are even a threat to our lives. Like I said flight/fight is blind and stupid so it treats a person stressing out over a test the same way it would if that person we're looking into the eyes of a venomous snake. Flight/fight doesn't get the stress signals and then take the time to consider what's causing them is a harmless test; it gets the stress signals and jumps straight into survival mode. If flight/fight evolved to take the time to contemplate the details of what's causing stress it would waist precious seconds that an organism needs to survive, so anything that did do that was killed off and booted out of the gene pool. Right now in human we do need the ability for are flight/fight to distinguish between something life threatening and benign, but that ability simply hasn't had enough time to evolve yet.

You said you don't believe psychological conflicts can't cause the kind of stress needed to trigger DP which is at the extreme end and a part of fight/flight, but they can, simply because the flight/fight mechanism can't distinguish between the constant stress these conflicts generate and a genuine threat to the person feeling that stress. Now consider this scenario, you have a lot pf complex emotional/psychological issues swirling around in your head whether your consciously thinking about them or not. This is generating constant stress on some level or another, and your flight/fight is blindly responding to that stress by doing the only thing it can; it makes you anxious, it makes you depressed, it gives you panic attacks and turns all of this directionless fear and anxiety onto normally harmless questions about the universe and existence. It's telling you to run away (anxiety), it's telling you to fight, (I've seen people mention feeling intense anger), and it's telling you to hide or play dead and not make sound (depression). But of course the problem is inside you, and flight/fight is telling you to run from, hide from or fight the source of your stress. That source is you and the complex mind that makes you human, that is something you can not run from, something you cannot physically fight and something that you can never hide from. When flight/fight gets the message that there is nothing you can do about the stress, it dose the last thing it can to survive which is to depersonalize.

Now imagine our little lizard is in the mouth of a hawk and very wounded, it can't escape and the situation is hopeless, but death doesn't have to be horrible. The lizard goes into something of a trance, and escapes the stress and pain in it's body the only way it can; by disassociating from its body. It can't run from the predator or it's wounds, but at least it can run from the feelings and death won't be so bad. But if that lizards lucky and the hawk drops it by mistake it will still be in that trance state which keeps it from feeling the full extent of the pain so it will be able to escape a little bit easier. We are dissociating from emotional pain and stress the same way the lizard is from physical pain and stress. Like the lizard can't escape he hawk and it's wounds we can't escape ourselves and are emotional issues so are stupid, blind flight/fight response reacts as if death is imminent and we dissociate.






This video explains this process in more detail, and I'd recommend everyone who reads this watched it once at least.

Short version: Emotional stress causes DP because it's a source of constant stress that the flight/fight mechanism can't distinguish from something that's physically life threatening so it triggers it's last survival measure which is to disassociate as an attempt to escape something that truly inescapable.


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## Guest

Dreamer* said:


> Semantics here. As I said, I never saw DP/DR (now or even as a child) as protecting me from something "in my subconscious" some "unresolved conflict buried beneath the surface."
> 
> I have said before. Dissociation of many kinds is seen as a survival mechanism. There is a difference between the word "protect" and "survive." That is when faced with a dangerous situation one's body prepares to "fight" or "flee" ... the only two choices to avoid death. This is what animals do.
> 
> We know that in extreme stress individuals become overstimulated, go into fight/flight, adrenaline kicks in, etc. These are GOOD things to help the individual focus on survival. If you are being attacked by a lion blood actually goes to your brain, away from your limbs, your digestion is bypassed. You may bleed less, you think more clearly, and may vomit after you have (hopefully escaped) as your body was trying to survive the lion attack.
> 
> If we have an anxiety disorder (which I know I have -- when not DP/DR I was still an anxious kid) ... this mechanim isn't working correctly. It is OVER compensating. As I've said many times, it is like a blown fuse on a circuit breaker.
> 
> I could go into neurology, or the Hythothalamus Pituitary Adrenal Axis, or Lord knows what they keep finding, but:
> 
> Excessive stress (of any kind -- *but not "psychic conflict" I don't buy that*) + predisposition to "blow the circuit" = abnormal stress response which could be an extended panic attack or extreme DP/DR or chronic DP/DR. I don't know more than any researcher, so the whole theory could be dumped tomorrow. But it makes sense to me. On the other hand, there are quite a few people on this board who do not have excessive anxiety but who have DP/DR. I have had other DPers say that I am a zillion times more anxious than they are.
> 
> I believe DP/DR is some sort of neurological/physiological event ... caused by stress. It is a normal human/animal reaction that has malfunctioned IF it stays around and is disabling and limiting. It may be a temporary protective mechanism in that it is intended to help us be hyperfocused, detached, and prepare to defend ourselves, run, hide, "play dead" , etc.
> 
> But the main point. I do not believe, I simply don't, from interacting with other mentally ill people, from knowing myself, working in therapy, and from research, that we have what Freud described as this elaborate "unconscous" mind. That's so vague, so much like "a rabbit hole." A therapist could keep you in treatment for 50 years claiming "you haven't quite sorted everything out YET."
> 
> Impossible really to type this out. It is best to talk about this in person. I was at a depression meeting tonight. It is so wonderful to have time to bounce ideas off of one another about why we might be feeling/reacting a certain way to something. FInd a shared experience. Get a tool someone else used to cope. THAT is what is of value to me. That and my meds. And in my group I'd say 6 out of 8 are on meds. 2 used to self medicate with alcohol and are recovering alcoholics. Nothing comes in a vacuum.
> 
> AND .............. we are all infinitely complex and unique, we are all infinitely complex and unique, we are all infinitely complex and unique, we are all infinitely complex and unique, we are all infinitely complex and unique, we are all infinitely complex and unique ........ can't say it enough.


Oookay... Let's rephrase that Simple question...

Do you believe (right here right now) DP/DR is a protective mechanism of our mind, to protect ourselves?

No if's, no buts..... ONE WORD.. YES or NO?


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## Guest

Fearless said:


> She can't write less than 1000 words LOL


Hmmm...?? Maybe this time we can get a one word answer?


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## DP boy

the meds are probly counter productive at this point can you not agree dreamer that dp is mainly a result of ur thoughts it is a thought disorder tht is very reminesent of ocd in the way it takes over the mind . I agree with fearless tht it is a shield we put up but i think there other factors at play like low dopimine and a stressed adrenal system will in any case cause depression dp sysmptoms.


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## GroupHug

Fearless said:


> *Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit!!!!!* Cras id cursus nulla, eu elementum purus. Suspendisse potenti. Integer tincidunt convallis ante, sit amet congue velit. Fusce pharetra ipsum ante, in imperdiet felis placerat eu. Phasellus adipiscing diam a nulla laoreet, vel interdum urna porttitor. Proin nec nisi euismod, porttitor sapien ac, placerat lacus.
> 
> *Mauris auctor dictum lectus quis imperdiet. Aliquam sed mi sapien. LOREM IPSUM DOLOR SIT!! Nullam imperdiet quis ligula a laoreet. Integer et elementum purus. In suscipit imperdiet urna eget imperdiet.*
> 
> Quisque tristique placerat ligula vitae vulputate. Donec hendrerit, nulla vel faucibus congue, quam massa rutrum sem, vitae vulputate magna libero non mauris. Integer sodales ligula ligula, ac commodo urna rhoncus eget. Donec tristique eros id faucibus ultricies. Nunc elementum lacus vitae sagittis feugiat. Vestibulum ante ipsum primis in faucibus orci luctus et ultrices posuere cubilia Curae; Nulla tincidunt nisi in faucibus fermentum. Vivamus rhoncus vel ante id auctor. Proin consequat neque eget quam porta, eu consectetur purus convallis. >>>>>>>>>*Suspendisse convallis dui ligula, sed tincidunt orci varius a.*
> 
> Morbi id magna arcu. Sed molestie luctus risus eget interdum. Vestibulum sed sem quis felis luctus sagittis quis id nunc. In hac habitasse platea dictumst. Donec eget tortor consectetur, imperdiet velit quis, tincidunt mi. Nunc eros velit, ornare non vulputate eu, ornare at orci. Donec eget nisi sed urna vestibulum feugiat. *Cum sociis natoque penatibus et magnis dis parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus. Quisque laoreet orci eget odio posuere gravida. Cras semper nisi quis augue dapibus fringilla vitae id eros. Vivamus nec aliquet lacus*. Cras eu eros a augue commodo congue ac ac elit. Praesent nisi velit, sollicitudin ac lacus eget, ornare euismod sem. Sed non facilisis velit.
> 
> *In non cursus elit. Cras nulla urna, viverra ac felis id, commodo sollicitudin ipsum.* Fusce molestie in tortor ac tincidunt. Pellentesque quis pretium eros. Pellentesque dapibus diam a velit faucibus, sed elementum nisi mollis. Etiam placerat ante magna, vitae tristique nulla condimentum nec. Duis hendrerit dictum dolor. Curabitur ut rhoncus sapien.​​*>>>>Suspendisse bibendum nunc purus, dictum tristique mi volutpat at. Integer consequat quis magna a aliquam. Fusce faucibus ut elit vitae aliquet.<<<<*​^^^^^^^^^​


Translation -



> We will be sure to post a comment!!!!! Tomorrow that no course, the element of pure football. Contact. Embedded developers typically before, this is a normal game. Our immigration before it, in the real estate financing market dramatically. Please use the storage facilities, or sometimes more feasible. Add to it only from the site content, wind and smart to invest lakes.
> 
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> 
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> 
> More great pictures. But sometimes a mourning School. Contact salad Preview mourning arrows that now. In this post. In addition, development and a metal plate, a person is willing to hairstyle, cosmetics, my dear. Now wants to ride, play football, not ideal, at least one million jobs. Unfortunately, we only talented but overall programming. This helps us prevent automated submissions evenpages, a ridiculous mouse will be born. Each hotel bills reserved pregnant. Unless one is always playing catch tomorrow's life, this is reality. EPA emissions control. Tomorrow's economy from the big advantage and Loan industry. We want to save, diving and swimming pool maintenance, investment salad recipes. But not easy to achieve.
> 
> Not in the course of the competition. To-morrow there is no budget, and bio-lucky this, please very automated. All rights of torment and discomfort in the trademark. More price value. Reducing diesel bus from tourism, but only soft element. Front of a large asteroid to hit, nor is the sauce of life there is no tank. Our company has been planning. About Textile sector.
> 
> Search >>>> okay now, but here it goes, my. Some who follow your shelter from the driving. Welcome to China's economic throat. <<<<
> ^ ^ _ ^ ^ _ ^ ^ _ ^ ^ _ ^


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## AlexFromPT

Lorem Ipsum is a tool designers use to fill bodies of text, Im sure Fearless was making a joke using it, it doesn't need translation lol


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## GroupHug

oh, I've never heard of that.


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## Guest

"3. Hence, DP/DR is either a healthy/brief way to protect oureslves after certain threats (and that would be seeing the WTC being hit -- many involved, and othes simply watching felt "this is a movie, this is a dream" "I ran down 12 flights of stairs and didn't even feel my feet touch the ground" ... "I ran from the crashed plane. I have no idea how I ran one mile away and got to this point, I just started running."

(I'm not sure how to quote a part of a post .___.)

Any way, the DP/DR response is going to persist so long as the source of stress and danger dose. The reason why what you described above resulted in a brief DP/DR response is because the threat was both obvious and it created a situation where running was viable option. More than likely the DP/DR ended for these people when they were out of danger because the source of stress is gone. My point is about flight/fight responding to emotional stress in flawed way because it hasn't evolved yet to handle. The reason DP/DR lasts for so long in people dealing with emotional stress is because the emotions are something they can never escape like a collapsing building would be, so the. DP/DR is not going to go away so long as the emotional stress stays because that is the very thing that's causing it to trigger.

Second point, when you talk about trauma in your life it strikes me that your focused on the traumatic events themselves. I've seen you talk about all the terrible things that you've been through, but I don't believe I've seen you discuss how they might have impacted your core beliefs about your self. You said you dealt with child abuse, but the memories of that occurring are not what's causing you stress now. What's causing you stress now is how that abuse effected your core beliefs about you in a negative way, as well as the way you interact with and view he world and others. So odds are, there is not some other traumatic event you haven't found out about yet, but you may not realize or understand how the ones you know about have been impacting you through out your life.

An example of a way that childhood abuse has a lasting negative impact on ones sense of self is toxic shame.

Here's an article about it: http://www.forhealing.org/shame.html


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## Guest

GroupHug said:


> oh, I've never heard of that.


Yeah I use it in web design. Still, I can't believe I've gone this long without translating it. Funny stuff. xD


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## GroupHug

Fearless said:


> With your posts, you're simply proving the emotional abuse theory.


In what way?


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## GroupHug

boners


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## Guest

Then I'll make my final point that I find it hard to believe your depressed, anxious and DP largely as the result of a genetic predisposition when you can list off several reasons why you would be depressed, anxious and DP. I don't think that all mental issues are purely psychological, but I would not put it past people to give genetics more credit than it it deserves in some cases. Simply put, if someone without a doubt had a solid upbringing and thus no obvious reasons to be depressed or anxious, then I would believe something is medically wrong with them.

This is clearly a matter of nature versus nurture as far as our debate goes; You're nature, I'm nurture, so it's going be difficult for one of us to change the others opinion. Doesn't mean I'm not going to try though XD


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## GroupHug

I think a person would be happier thinking in terms of the psychological rather than biological when it comes to mental health. Just an opinion.


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## Guest

Thanks for replying Dreamer

I'm really shocked at what you wrote and I'm sorry you see ur conditions this way, I really am.

As I said previously, I've been very dissociative for most of my life as well. One thing i learnt a few years back is that the dissociative response is a learned thing. When we're young we learnt to dissociate to escape threatening situations and or overwhelming emotions. That learnt method served us well, but as we grew older it was no longer required b/c the threats had passed. However we still continue to use dissociation to escape from perceived threats and difficult emotions. ie.. we're 'hard wired' to respond in this way. And as you said, it's now a maladaptive response and causes great anxiety in our lives.

The aim of therapy is to 'rewire' our brains. The neuro plasticity of the human mind is an amazing thing and quite possible even in older people, and has been proven many times.

I'm wondering how your therapist sees your conditions (dp/dr, anxiety and depression)? Do they give you hope that you can overcome these illnesses?

Sure, Freud had some interesting theories.. but we've come a LONG way since then, especially our understanding of dissociation.

When people talk about the flight or fight instinct... don't forget there's also the 'freeze' instinct in there as well


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## Guest

Dreamer* said:


> *MY QUESTION, out of curiousity.*
> 
> *And I have a question -- not knowing me at all, what is it that is hidden in my unconscous that I haven't faced -- can you hazard a guess -- perhaps having read my site, but never meeting me in person??? I have dealt with a lot of ugly stuff and of realizing I basically had no parents, that my mother was mentally ill and abusive, etc. It has taken years to feel good about myself psychologically. And I am still a work in progress? What is your theory on what I am "repressing" or not acknowledging that is keeping my DP/DR here. What are others doing? Also, why insist that those who have a postitive childhood must STILL be repressing some horrible unknown conflict and that is the reason they don't get "cured."?*


I'm sorry but I don't have any idea what's hidden away inside of you, and I never, ever said anything about repressed memories.

I wouldn't even pretend I could answer this question.

Silly question time... what's POV?


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## Guest

You keep going back to saying things about how we're asking you to find some hidden abuse and then have some sort of realization and miraculously recover as a result, but that's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that getting out of DP is a matter of fixing what the trauma and difficulties in your life have damaged. So as far as I'm concerned, if someone can understand any flawed ways of thinking and operating they have that's hurting them, they can correct those and recover without needing to know what caused them in the first place. Freeing your self of these flawed ways of thinking is certainly going to take a while, but that's only because by the time we recognize them they have become highly ingrained into our day to day functioning; they are a bad habit we don't even notice.

In my case I've always had serious issues with chronic shame and codependency which I've only recently recognized, but just noticing them has done little for me. I need to free myself from those bad habits before I can feel any relief. That's just a part of it.

I feel like the most important thing to do is clean up the way you view yourself by stopping all of the flawed ways of thinking that the trauma through out your life has left you with. It looks like your placing a lot of your effort into coping with and trying to control the way these flaws make you feel which is the depression and anxiety, but that's like taking pain killers for a broken leg.

It sounds like you've found some things that are empowering to you and make you feel more secure with your self, and I believe those are things that will help you recover the most because they are the feelings that will start to override negative thought patterns and poor self image which are a product of emotional trauma.


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## DP boy

Fearless said:


> I can not understand with a sane mind that some of you can actually believe that you are not responsibility for your own freakin' thoughts. Thinking that your own thoughts are results of some chemistry stuff is the ultimate way of irresponsibility. You can not get any more victim than that.


i KNOW im responsible its all connected the thoughts cause the chemistry the chemistry causes the thought do u not agree fearless


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## Guest

Antimony said:


> You keep going back to saying things about how we're asking you to find some hidden abuse and then have some sort of realization and miraculously recover as a result, but that's not what I'm saying.
> 
> What I'm saying is that getting out of DP is a matter of fixing what the trauma and difficulties in your life have damaged. So as far as I'm concerned, if someone can understand any flawed ways of thinking and operating they have that's hurting them, they can correct those and recover without needing to know what caused them in the first place. Freeing your self of these flawed ways of thinking is certainly going to take a while, but that's only because by the time we recognize them they have become highly ingrained into our day to day functioning; they are a bad habit we don't even notice.
> 
> In my case I've always had serious issues with chronic shame and codependency which I've only recently recognized, but just noticing them has done little for me. I need to free myself from those bad habits before I can feel any relief. That's just a part of it.
> 
> I feel like the most important thing to do is clean up the way you view yourself by stopping all of the flawed ways of thinking that the trauma through out your life has left you with. It looks like your placing a lot of your effort into coping with and trying to control the way these flaws make you feel which is the depression and anxiety, but that's like taking pain killers for a broken leg.
> 
> It sounds like you've found some things that are empowering to you and make you feel more secure with your self, and I believe those are things that will help you recover the most because they are the feelings that will start to override negative thought patterns and poor self image which are a product of emotional trauma.


Beautiful words my friend. So, so true.

P


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## Guest

Dreamer* said:


> Point of View, LOL.
> 
> I'm just curious if individuals here say "I'm not trying various things" only reading books, or using my intellect, what is it that I am NOT doing, when I keep saying I'm doing what you're doing? LOL. Or I'd gather I am. This is why the internet is so crazy. We aren't talking about the same things. We can't carry a conversation and see body language and hear inflections in our voices.
> 
> IDK. I don't believe ... that I am not "digging down" to find some "reason unknown to me" that once revealed will make the DP/DR go away. That makes no sense to me. What would that be? That I was sexually abused? That I saw something that I can't recall? That I haven't come to terms that my mother didn't love me? I have to a great extent come to deal with that. That I ... what? That isn't what I talk with with my therapist. We talk about controlling fears, thoughts, anxiety, ways to feel better -- including exercises, nutrition, etc., etc. A holistic approach.
> 
> I've spent hours dealing with my feelings about my parents, etc. SO many topics have gotten sorted out ... again over years. And I believe the journey is life long. When you hit 50 you have other things going on in your life. More challenges. You understand this. There is no end to the challenges in life.
> 
> I mainly uses DIalectical Behavioral Therapy. I guess if you wish you can GOogle it. I won't carry on.
> 
> Nite.


Let it go... after years of trauma therapy. You need to let you're past, be your past. Put the trauma in 'the graveyard' and move on...

Don't get stuck in your past. Be here. Right now. In the present. And use all those incredible tools you have, to guide you to peace and harmony.

Maybe find a good therapist. And be wary of pharmaceutical medication that blocks your ability to access your deep self/selves and feelings.

You're an incredibly intelligent person, without a doubt.

But please, let the past go. It's ok to talk about it when you feel the need to heal, but try not to let it (trauma) run present your life.

I'm sorry if that sounds simplistic, or if I'm standing on some pedestal and telling you what to do. I'm sorry if I come across like that. Maybe it's b/c I care? i care about people that have been hard done by. And I'd sincerely like to help if I could.

P


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## Guest

Fearless said:


> Philo, letting go of trauma and emotional abuse doesn't happen like that. It's not about, "ok, let's stop thinking about it and concentrate on the present". Because you have a zillions of habits and beliefs in you, caused by that trauma or emotional abuse, which you don't even know about. And those habits and beliefs will keep operating in you, regardless of you think about the trauma or not.





Fearless said:


> Philo, letting go of trauma and emotional abuse doesn't happen like that. It's not about, "ok, let's stop thinking about it and concentrate on the present". Because you have a zillions of habits and beliefs in you, caused by that trauma or emotional abuse, which you don't even know about. And those habits and beliefs will keep operating in you, regardless of you think about the trauma or not.


Ohh no.. I'm not trying to say it's as easy as writing a few words down. Not for one minute.

It's about slowly working to change those bad habits and beliefs (dissociation being one of them) with the help of good therapy (and tons of work outside therapy) and taking good care of your body.

Sometimes it's true we'll never remember everything that happened, but if we 'listen' to our bodies and minds, we'll at least have an insight into what we need to work towards to feel good/content in our lives. Memories help a great deal, but they're not essential in healing. Insight into how you are feeling now IS essential though.

I don't know...?? That's that's my take on it. Could be wrong. Tell me what you think. I'm all ears..


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## wise

Dreamer* said:


> ? re: "intercourse .... "
> 
> I have a problem with the mechanism diverting attention from the source of pain. Never once, since my childhood, has DP/DR served to do this. I have been fully aware of abuse. I have continued to remain anxious. I have continued to remain depressed. The DP/DR is the worst symptom.
> 
> It does not help me in the least.
> 
> What has helped deal with all symptoms is indeed distraction, that is implementing CBT (which I didn't get until later in life) to help me ignore negative thoughts in my head. I no longer allow existential thoughts to bother me ... if anything I avoid them. I am more able to be myself -- completely myself -- because it is useless to pretend that I don't have any limitations.
> 
> I also have a full range of motions when the DP/DR isn't terrible. But when it is I am terrified. I cry, I laugh, I socialize. Many people do not even understand how I could feel depressed as I can rise to the occasion in many situatoins.
> 
> All I can say is if the DP/DR were GONE, I would function a heckuva lot better, and more likely would be performing, teaching, who knows.
> 
> I see (in me) the DP/DR being an extension of severe anxiety (which I always seem to have had) -- certainly made worse by my dysfunctional family -- it is again, like an extreme "Fight/Flight" reaction that goes WAY overboard.
> 
> Time has also helped with this.
> 
> You would think that when I was diagnosed with cancer I would have gone full out DP/DR to "protect" myself from the thought of my own mortality. Didn't happen. The DP/DR have stayed the same. Some indivdiuals (men and women) when they hear a diagnosis of cancer they have PTSD, or Accute Stress reactions. Others commit suicide as the treatments are just about as bad as the risk of death.
> 
> DP/DR has NEVER diverted attention from any challenge in my life, including the death of my parents, suicide of a friend, death of friends, and other losses in my life, and also terrifying experiences.
> 
> And again, I recall all of my abuse. I have a rather strong memory -- and I wrote a lot -- kept journals.
> 
> I have more surgery coming up. I am not more DP/DR. I mainly get concerned of anesthesia making it worse.
> 
> Just MY experience.


I think most of us on here have become fully aware of the fact that chronic abuse does this, and abuse will trigger fight flight and when it happens often enough then the psyche thinks it's best to remain in a numb state because it perceives the environment to be hard to deal with mentally. So you can be aware of the fact that you are in a chronically abusive environment but unless you make serious changes to challenge mentally what is being thrown at you, or even your own abusive thoughts, you'll automatically feel threatened by it and go into dp. It's never been about deep dark secrets that a psychoanalyst needs to get to, it's more about confronting what is 'touchy' for you and dealing with it so someone's abuse or your own harsh inner critic no longer have any charge.


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## Guest

You'll have to forgive me for thinking your being sarcastic, much as I hope you're not.


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## GroupHug

You don't need to ask for forgiveness, she laid it on thick.


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## Guest

Fearless said:


> Rigid people break.


 Eventually.... lol


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## wise

If we had gone through acute traumas like molestation or war we would have developed PTSD and DID but we didn't, we have DP..The body somaticizes when scary thoughts enter our head as proven by Freud and that's why the key to feeling physically integrated is to acknowledge and not neglect the abuse we are exposed to by choosing to always discredit what is being said or the irrational thoughts our mind has created.


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Dreamer* said:


> Haven't broken yet. I'm tough, creative, intelligent and keep pushing on. Wanted to kill myself at 30. I'm still here.
> 
> Curious as to why no one bothers any other person here who has had DP/DR for 30+ years. Why do I scare you so much?
> 
> Again, why not go on Facebook and not hide behind a fake name and avatar? Very easy.
> 
> And as usual, ignorance is bliss.
> 
> Also Freud always said he believed his diagnoses would be found to have a medical cause. He was first a medical doctor. Mot of his psychological theories have been tossed.


Dreamer, in no way was I referring to 'breaking' meaning suicide. It was in reference to Fearless's comment about changing your opinion (of Dp).

I don't have a Facebook account and I'm certainly not hiding behind a faceless avatar. And I'm not ignorant.

The fact that I'm not ignorant about dissociative disorders is a big part of the reason why I cope ok, not always, but mostly.

Freud's work is very outdated and as you say, that's why most of his psychological theories have been tossed. He's hardly worth a mention in this day and age with regards to DD's.

I'm not scared by you. There's no reason why I should be either. Though I do worry that some of the younger people on this site, with less knowledge and experience in DD's will read some of your posts and become very depressed in thinking that they are diseased/disordered/ defective for life. This is not so.

People here need encouragement, knowledge and support. Myself included. Not useless mumbo jumbo about every mental disorder on the planet. That can actually be quite damaging and distressing to some.

Cheers.. Phil


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## wise

Dreamer* said:


> This site originally used to be full of constructive information and debates which had some basis in research and PERSONAL experience with others with DP and other issues. The original group was older, more educated, and/or more open to adult debate.
> 
> These statements are false.
> 
> Freud has also been generally discredited save by small groups hanging onto the psychoanalytic model of all mental lllness. I just say my therapist today, and she was stunned by some of the comments I have received here. She couldn't understand the thinking processes. She was truly stunned. She has practiced for 25 years.
> 
> I wish some of you were on Facebok - showed your faces. How can you judge anyone without having met them? Even FB is useless to judge someone's character. So many good people have left here it is a crying shame.
> 
> I know tl:dr


Dreamer,
I'm sorry but Freud is not totally irrelevant. I read about Freud and Anno O in college maybe you should read up on that. It's a case study of hysteria aka somatization which is what dissociation is, physical symptoms fueled by mental anguish. I wasn't referring to the Oedipus and Electra complex theories that he is so famous for, those theories these days are quite obviously the butt of jokes.


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## wise

Dreamer* said:


> This site originally used to be full of constructive information and debates which had some basis in research and PERSONAL experience with others with DP and other issues. The original group was older, more educated, and/or more open to adult debate.
> 
> These statements are false.
> 
> Freud has also been generally discredited save by small groups hanging onto the psychoanalytic model of all mental lllness. I just say my therapist today, and she was stunned by some of the comments I have received here. She couldn't understand the thinking processes. She was truly stunned. She has practiced for 25 years.
> 
> I wish some of you were on Facebok - showed your faces. How can you judge anyone without having met them? Even FB is useless to judge someone's character. So many good people have left here it is a crying shame.
> 
> I know tl:dr


Dreamer,
I'm sorry but Freud is not totally irrelevant. I read about Freud and Anno O in college maybe you should read up on that. It's a case study of hysteria aka somatization which is what dissociation is, physical symptoms fueled by mental angst. I wasn't referring to the Oedipus and Electra complex theories that he is so famous for, those theories these days are quite obviously the butt of jokes. At the end of the day Dreamer, we all just want a permanent cure for our dp and to get that we need to get to the bottom of what is keeping it going. I wouldn't take what is being said on here personally because everyone on here myself included don't know you from a hole in the wall. I agree that some have more tact than others and clearly that's a maturity issue. Also, you can't, as I've come to realize, expect kid gloves from people that have dp because they've been abused in their lives. I've come to realize that most abused people become abusive and bitter themselves so the way they say things isn't going to always be tactful. It's been my experience and for that reason I always try and make a conscious effort to treat people as I would want to be treated. My advice to you is to not rely on your social worker for validation and answers, she/he can't possibly know more than you do about dp. The hard work has to be done by you and you already know what it entails. DP isn't so much a mental illness as it is a calling to live in the present and enjoy the time we have on this planet.


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## Guest

Simply put, the reason people are so inclined to debate and argue with you is because out of all the people on here who have suffered 30+ years, your one of very few that makes regular posts and actually gives an opinion. The rest of them seldom say anything beyond confirming they had this for a decade or more when someone else mentions having it for so long. If their are some who are more vocal, they don't make a point of how long they've been suffering.

I've tried to talk to another 30+ year sufferer and they made it very clear they weren't even listening to anything I said. The guy was talking about everything being hopeless so I tried to offer him a new perspective that he might not have considered. He mentioned his dissociating stared when he was 5, so I presented the childhood trauma/abuse theory and gave him some articles; he wrote it all off as "false hope" and never read a word of any of it as far as I could tell. The next day he made a post detailing a broken family life with parents he said only stayed together because of their 6 or 7 children and fought constantly in front of them.


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## Guest

I wasn't trying to say they we're all like that, I just wanted you to know I have talked to others who have suffered long term. I just talked to another long term individual today and she was far more open to discussion. You commented on her post actually, she was the one with epilepsy. I'm not sure if you found the information since you didn't mention it, but she was also physically abused by family members and sexually assaulted, but I don't want to talk about her to much when she's not here to speak for her self.

I feel like people who developed DP at a very young age, or just a while ago, are at the biggest disadvantage as far as recovery is concerned. One of the reasons being they wouldn't have had access to the internet to gain any sort of understanding of what they we're dealing with; I've seen people who had no idea what was going on for over 20 years until they came across this site. I'd bet that for a lot of long term sufferer having access to a site like this in the first year of DP would of made a huge difference because they would have known what was wrong, that they weren't alone and that recovery is a possibility right from the start. It's not surprising to see people loose hope after battling with it for so long, like the first guy I was telling you about.

Secondly, people who slip into DP at a young age are simply going to have to deal with it longer by default, because it will take several years before they'll really have the capacity to help themselves by truly understanding the condition, or just being able to find the right information. With that, at a young age the brain and mind are very dynamic and who knows how they would develop in response to the constant DP state.

The longer someone has DP with or without knowing what it is, the harder recovery becomes.


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## wise

Antimony said:


> You keep going back to saying things about how we're asking you to find some hidden abuse and then have some sort of realization and miraculously recover as a result, but that's not what I'm saying.
> 
> What I'm saying is that getting out of DP is a matter of fixing what the trauma and difficulties in your life have damaged. So as far as I'm concerned, if someone can understand any flawed ways of thinking and operating they have that's hurting them, they can correct those and recover without needing to know what caused them in the first place. Freeing your self of these flawed ways of thinking is certainly going to take a while, but that's only because by the time we recognize them they have become highly ingrained into our day to day functioning; they are a bad habit we don't even notice.
> 
> In my case I've always had serious issues with chronic shame and codependency which I've only recently recognized, but just noticing them has done little for me. I need to free myself from those bad habits before I can feel any relief. That's just a part of it.
> 
> I feel like the most important thing to do is clean up the way you view yourself by stopping all of the flawed ways of thinking that the trauma through out your life has left you with. It looks like your placing a lot of your effort into coping with and trying to control the way these flaws make you feel which is the depression and anxiety, but that's like taking pain killers for a broken leg.
> 
> It sounds like you've found some things that are empowering to you and make you feel more secure with your self, and I believe those are things that will help you recover the most because they are the feelings that will start to override negative thought patterns and poor self image which are a product of emotional trauma.


Really well put!


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## wise

Dreamer* said:


> Antimony, your quote double posted then deleted.
> A question for you again, may I ask how old you are and when your DP started? (Sorry if I missed that somewhere.)
> My response to your post:
> 
> -------------------
> OK, fair enough. I have had a very difficult time myself, as my DP/DR started as far back as I can recall. Age 4 or 5. On and off. Then slowly became chronic. So, I have had episodes of DP/DR since around 1963, got a diagnosis in 1975 and was told I was incurable (then my mother, a psychiatrist became disgusted that she had a defective daughter) -- there was also very little literature on the topic, and even when I knew the word for it I found little information. I had no access to the internet or any other person with DP/DR until I was around 42.
> 
> I would hope that you would consider my situation regarding that. I am doing far better now than I was in my 20s, 30s and 40s. I'm even doing better than I was when I was 50 and I'm now 54. And during all of those years, I have still accomplished a lot.
> 
> I had zero support growing up and no knowledge essentially for 35 years. No love. No parents for all intents and purposes, no extended family, no siblings. My private school saved my life.
> 
> You said:
> 
> I guess all I want is a tad of credit for that. Nothing more. I certainly fall into that category.
> 
> My website and everything I do re: mental health advocacy has to do with getting the word out about DP/DR. My personal experience, info re: drug related experiences, and ending stigma for those with depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, etc.
> 
> As far as the individual with epilepsy. I had no specific comment but was curious about that person's diagnosis of a seizure disorder. I am confused by her diagnosis. That does not mean abuse hasn't factored into her situation.
> 
> DP has also been discussed as being some "low level" epilepsy, of being "stuck in the aura." There are many theories.
> 
> As long as we can discuss things like this, fair enough. Having another theory does not necessarily mean one is completely opposed to another theory. And life experience factors in. Again, I am 54 years old and have in essense had DPD, anxiety and depression for 50 years. And I am not alone in that.
> 
> I know that I get stung when I am told I'm "not trying enough" -- which comes mainly from Fearless and others I have blocked or no longer respond to. That is my mother talking ... she is long gone ... since 2001, my father died in 1990. And her influence in my life has faded. But I was nothing but dirt to her. I am finally realizing I am a good person. As the mantra goes in a group I'm in, "I have enough, I do enough, I AM enough." All individuals have worth. And that is a Buddhist POV.
> 
> I can see how both my environement and my given predisposition have contributed to who I am. Both. And every one of us here copes in his or her own way. As long as no one is harming someone else, I just figue we should get along. I get angry and defensive -- and yes, I know where that comes from. From my past -- which I am working on.
> 
> Cheers.


Dreamer,
I think your mother projected all of her crap/shame onto you and that in combination with neglect/ emotional abandonment created the Perfect storm for your dp. It's cliche but the best advice anyone can give you is to just live your life.


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## Guest

I'm 21 and I've had DP for about 5 or 6 months.


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## Guest

GroupHug said:


> http://www.afterpsychotherapy.com/intellectualization-depersonalization/
> 
> Thoughts?


Now that's interesting.


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## Jamby

Philo said:


> Oookay... Let's rephrase that Simple question...
> 
> Do you believe (right here right now) DP/DR is a protective mechanism of our mind, to protect ourselves?
> 
> No if's, no buts..... ONE WORD.. YES or NO?


It is kinda interesting that nobody want to answer. My answer is yes.

This is simply another insight into this disorder and in my opinion is spot on. Why is this opinion so offensive to some people? This nature versus nurture argument is counterproductive. The lack of respect people show for each other on this forum doesn't help anyone. The last thing we need around here are trolls whose only function seems to be swooping in and mocking someone else's opinion. Do we have moderators on this site?


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## Guest

Too long, DON'T read.

The answer is more complicated than "Yes" or "No" ... and many individuals do not respect or even consider anything more complex than "one specific answer or theory." Indeed we cannot share points of view without being attacked.

Also the term "defense mechanism" is used all over the place and can be interpreted in many ways.

Here I describe myself:

1. An individual starts out with a particular predispotion towards being more sensitive, being more anxious by nature, tending towards dissociation, etc. Many people here do not believe in my point of view on this and attack me. But it is simply my theory gleaned from 54 years of this crap.

2. Then, if faced with endless abuse of one form or another (and in studies of DP it tends to be EMOTIONAL/VERBAL abuse has more of an impact developing DP for some reason), such an overly sensitive individual is constantly stressed. One is indeed in "fight/flight" mode much of the time.

3. Being endlessly in fight/flight mode, can literally affect brain circuitry. That is, various parts of the brain are so overstiumlated they can "rewire" etc. So meds, therapy, whatever tools one uses to get better means you are indeed trying to rewire your brain, and it is a difficult task.

As for myself, having DP/DR at age 4 or 5, that was not initially scary but a sort of fantasy world for an only child, yes, I was "escaping." But when it started to interfere with my functioning in school, with friends, with my lfe, it was then something healthy people don't have to deal with. It is simply not part of the activity of a normal healthy brain.

So, if I say I have worked 40 years using all manner of techniques (including going on with my life) that doesn't count for some reason. I am "lazy." But I read Philo stating "It has taken me 40 years to come to certain understandings about myself."

Because I have a slightly more biological view of this, I get kicked to the ground. And also, I have been repeatedly attacked for "not gettting to the root of my problems." That couldn't be further from the truth. To be told that is painful.

Finally my feelings of DP/DR and my experience with it are not exactly the same as anyone else here:

1. I was NEVER afraid of going crazy, or "getting schizophrenia."

2. I have overcome my exiatential thinking -- I can read existential philosophy and I don't get afraid or more DP.

3. I am better re: my DP/DR now at 54 than I was when I was 15-30 -- some of my darkest days, when I had suicide planned down to the last detail. And in those days I had no internet access, not to mention coming across SO many people with this. I thought I was completely alone.

4. I am stronger in my sence of self and worth.

So, in some, I have been able to retrain my brain.

I have also noted that animals, and dogs are an excellent example, that have been beaten and abused often cannot recover. THEIR learned helplessness which is where the term came from in the 1900s, is again a rewiring, that over time can be changed to a degree, or in some dogs or other animals can never be repaired. If that is so, the concept of "being a coward" or "being lazy" would be the identical attack my mother showered upon me day after day after day after day. And I KNOW that.

So some people here, attack me in the exact same way my mother would. I was worthless if I got a B+ on a test in 3rd grade. I was "evil" if I broke one of my own toys. I was "lazy" if I didn't do well in a piano recital. I know these things, I remember these things.

If people have no respect for someone else's point of view here, and literally abuse others in an IDENTICAL manner to the abuse they received. Wny even offer a comment? Why even express one's experience?

In my caes, my belief on what happened to me:

A given sensitive personality -- I was BORN with it ----> I was an only child of my older parents who neglected and abused me -----> I was in constant fight/flight mode waiting to be attacked and/or thrown out of the house ----> the constant fight/flight mode resulted in literal changes in my brain ----> I have been working my entire life to come back from that. And I never had a chance to work things out with my parents. They were not part of my life in any constructive way, and they are both deceased. My father and mother were gone from my life when I was 32.

I only ask for respect from people here. Any many seem incapable of offering it. As has been noted, the tight knit group of people that started this group is gone. And I know there are very good and sensitive young people here, but many are so immature and rude -- in a way I never would have been had I found a site like this when I was 15.

Also, I cannot agree with individuals who do not understand that anything from social anxiety disorder, to panic attacks to depression, to bipolar, to post-partum depression, to schizoprhenia do not have a medical neurological component. I forgot to mention we have MORE than really what are "primitive" scans ... we have post-mortem brain autopsies that SHOW the difference between healthy and unhealthy brains. Even twin brains are examined. These are analyzed against healthy brains.

Science has gone out the window in this day and age. And that is unfortunate.

And I cannot agree with the entire discussion posed in the article here. I can agree with some of it. But it is only part of the picture.

And for all I know, like other friends of mine who have been abused in similar ways -- some were tough as Hell, had some support in their lives, and were not as severely affected as I was.

We are all unique.

And yea, I know TLR -- did anyone here really read that entire article? I doubt it.


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