# Should DP really be Classified as an illness?



## greatnavad (Feb 23, 2006)

Should Dp be Classified as an ILLNESS?
I mean, I have had DP for best of my life,
I never knew who I AM , dont know the purpose of this life,
what it all means etc etc..
sometimes i have panic attacks taking me to the brink of nothingness..

BUT otherwise, it OK... i mean, its not an everyday every moment Disablity for the normal functioning of life,
we can do JOBS, contribute to society etc etc.

IMHO DP is not an ILLNESS at all...just a mild condition which can be ignored and adapted to.(incurable of course)
Just wonder if Attaching ILLNESS Tag to it puts it in same league as schizophrenia, amnesia, MPD etc etc...


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## Jack30 (Apr 27, 2006)

I lean toward your opinion. DR/DP seems to be linked to some underlying disorder or condition in just about every case I've encountered on this board...whether that individual realizes it or not. It's like classifying "sneeze" as an illness.

But then again, the brain is an unfathomably complex organ. WTF do I know?


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## Methusala (Dec 22, 2005)

Frankly I am stunned that anyone who has read this board would consider DP to not be an illness. Have you not noticed that there are frequent posts here about suicidal thoughts because of DP? Are you unaware that DP is a DSM-IV disorder that has many research papers on it? Besides the research done by Steinberg and Simeon showing DP to have many ways of starting and levels of severity, many daily posts on this board have shown that also. Please don't dismiss other peoples suffering, struggle and very reality because you all think DP is a big joke or something.

M


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

greatnavad said:


> Should Dp be Classified as an ILLNESS?
> I mean, I have had DP for best of my life,
> I never knew who I AM , dont know the purpose of this life,
> what it all means etc etc..
> ...


I'm also a tad :shock: at this.

I'm glad that for you this isn't an everyday moment. For me it is. Chronic DP and DR 24/7, 24 hours a day, even in my dreams. I have had this most of my life, and I'm almost 48. No drug onset.

I have GAD, mood dysregulation, clinical depression, and have been suicidal twice in my life.

We have this on a spectrum. Some here have milder versions, others have episodic DP/DR, or one or the other.

I have fought and fought with this. I have accomplished a lot in my life. I have a BA and MA. Worked in TV/Film in Hollywood. But by age 26 or so I was burnt out from fighting.

Also, I didn't have the same therapy, meds available in those early years. And I have a severely dysfunctional background. You can have a look at my website (sorry if things are missing I'm updating some HTML and it's killing me.)

Every illness is on a spectrum. Everyone here is unique.

*If something is disabling socially and occupationally, which it is for quite a few here -- some are on disability and it is not easy to get on disability. Some have been hospitalized for short periods. -- EDIT: It IS and ILLNESS!*

And even though you are fortunate enough to have this on and off, and find yourself OK in between episodes, that's great. But at the deepest Hell of your experience, imagine if it never went away.

Are you functional during very bad episodes?

Imagine those folks here who have your bad episodes much of the time. This affects work, friendships, intimacy, even the most basic activities of daily life.

IMHO and from my experience, reading this board, and meeting many mentally ill folks through NAMI meetings.

Unfortunately if we don't acknowledge this as some "malfunction", a degreee of pathology, research into this will remain paltry, and those suffering badly will not get help.

Best,
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

greatnavad said:


> BUT otherwise, it OK... i mean, its not an everyday every moment Disablity for the normal functioning of life,
> we can do JOBS, contribute to society etc etc.


You also used the word "mild" for yourself. That's great. Again, you're on a spectrum. And perhaps your coping skills are better. For me and many others here the perceptual distortions are not "mild". And I also have depression and severe anxiety with it.

But also, I contribute to society. So do many seriously mentally ill people who have crawled out of some serious holes.

I may not have the life I wanted, but I'm doing the best with what I have.

Again, great this is not a big deal for you. But I guess I would ask, why do you need support here, and/or have you sought medical help? If so that would indicate the experience has been disturbing to you at some point.

"Healthy" people to not seek help if they aren't experiencing something that is interfering with their life -- be it epilepsy, a broken leg, a heart attack, or mental illness which interferes with perception/cognition, etc.

Again, everyone here is unique.

Are you on meds? Have you ever been?
Each life story is different as well.

Best,
D


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## greatnavad (Feb 23, 2006)

The issue in My opinion really needs a debate.

There are many questions unanswered with DP

1. what are the symptoms, thier severity with respect to DP?

From various sources, the concensus of opinion says its all about loss of self or distortion of the same.
Now there are many people who seek refuge in DP after every kind of silly symptoms like eye palpitations, higher heart beat, lumps in throat..
forgive me if i am really Naive, but where do these physical symptoms come in to picture with regards to loss of self?...

I seriously believe that there are a lot of people on the internet,who believe that are DP just becos they have some weird unrelated symptoms(usually after doing drugs or couple of drinks).
While its ALL right to seek help , but it truly distorts the picture of what really is DP and how many REAL DPED guys are out there...

2.with regards to DP as illness, i appreciate the severity of symptoms in some people. I too was in serious holes and have gotten out of it thanks to forums like these.
But having said that, IS DP a REAL , SERIOUS ILLNESS in league with schizophrenia, MPD etc?
IT could be , but in most cases it isnt.

Firstly, most of the symptoms are related to Depression,anxiety and other things which are hardly SERIOUS illness.

Secondly, we have certain CONTROL over these symptoms.
I mean, DESPITE what many people say, we CAN, and have POWER to reduce or INCREASE the severity of this illness.
Obsessive thinking , loneliness, use of alcohol and drugs can seriously Fck us up.
on the other hand , indulging in work and life can make it lesser,
ALSO, it is well recognized that most DPers Adapt , having made subtle changes in outlook , to life and living.
Consider it with SCHIZOs, who have NO CONTROL over thier illness. THEY have symptoms which are beyond thier CONTROL. its only medical intervention which can save them.
its similiar with MPD.

DP requires a subtle alteration , and is traditionally considered low risk to SUICIDES.

Again, i respect sufferers, and welcome DP's Research on a serious scale, but many questions need to answered.


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2006)

I may have put this in another forum but i'm not sure, but i quote my psychiatrist who knows more then most other psychs about dp who tells me, The mind isn't a real thing, when a neurologist looks at a brain he can't point and say and there's the mind, There is a chemical imbalance that causes us to feel dp, so in the real meaning of the word, DP is just as big of an illness as cancer. You may not feel that way only having it episodally, but technically it is very much so an illness


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

greatnavad said:


> The issue in My opinion really needs a debate.
> 
> There are many questions unanswered with DP


I'm wired up and can't sleep so I'll have more of my 2 cents. Now it's 5 cents. 8)



> 1. what are the symptoms, thier severity with respect to DP?
> 
> From various sources, the concensus of opinion says its all about loss of self or distortion of the same.
> Now there are many people who seek refuge in DP after every kind of silly symptoms like eye palpitations, higher heart beat, lumps in throat..
> ...


This all has to do with a million questions that have been posed about DP. You have to read some books on dissociation and Dr. Simeon's new book, "Feeling Unreal: Depersonalization Disorder and the Loss of the Self" There are two research centers on DP, one in NYC and one at the IoP in London. See the links section.

Firstly, DP can be a secondary symptom -- a symptom that comes with probably all mental illnesses and some personality disorders. Nothing exists in a vacuum. In all of these cases the DP can be a major problem or not so big an isssue in relation to the overall picture.

But for some people, and I take myself, when I was a kid, I didn't even know how seriously depressed and anxious I was, and yes over observant, a hypochondriac, etc. I was most debilitated by the HELLISH DP/DR I would get.

As a young girl I'd hate to take a shower as I couldn't feel the difference between my skin and the water. Or go to bed as I couldn't feel the difference between where the sheets left off and the skin began. I'm talking about being 12 years old. NO DRUGS. I started having these feelings from 4/5 as I recall.

*There are also people, but I believe the number is rare, who have ONLY DP/DR and have distress over it, but are not anxious or depressed per se. They are also suffering.*

So firstly whether or not one has other symptoms, DP/DR can be extremely horrible in and of itself, and as I said diminish quality of life, and inability to function socially or occupationally.



> 2.with regards to DP as illness, i appreciate the severity of symptoms in some people. I too was in serious holes and have gotten out of it thanks to forums like these.
> But having said that, IS DP a REAL , SERIOUS ILLNESS in league with schizophrenia, MPD etc?
> IT could be , but in most cases it isnt.


I can't respond to your whole post. But how do you measure "seriousness of illness". I know some people with schizophrenia who function better than I do. There are famous individuals with bipolar and depression and panic and OCD who fight with their illnesses and suffer in silence. Some do better others don't.

Also, I had a best friend w/OCD, depression who killed herself. You would have never known there was anything wrong with her unless you knew her very well, and she kept very much to herself.

How can you measure which is worse? Is cancer worse than Parkinson's? Is AIDS worse than arthritis? Some people function better with these illnesses and others don't. Doesn't mean they aren't ill.

Also, DP is found to occur in epilepsy (during the aura), in brain tumors, and in trauma to the head.

I visited a neurologist for a tremor in my hands and asked him about DP. He knew exactly what it was. He had five patients with it. Brain tumors, and car accident victims.

If you know what deja-vu is ... have you experienced it? Well if you have, it's a normal little brain glitch -- that has been analyzed and explained as something to do with memory and cognition in the brain. But there are a rare few who have PERMANENT deja-vu.

Well, you'd say, "What's the big deal?" Imagine living in a perpetual perceptual distortion 24/7 for the rest of your life. I read an article of a man who had chronic deja-vu (don't know what happened, head injury or something) and he couldn't stand it. He wanted to kill himself. This was in Japan. Don't know what happened to him.

Mental illnesses and Physical Illnesses are both burdens we all have to bear. Both can be more or less serious. That doesn't mean if they aren't that debilitating the person isn't ill.

Again, a diabetic can get along just fine if he/she takes insulin. You'd never know the person was ill. They live a normal life ... with some exceptions. Same with mental illness. Some cope better than others.

You are simplifying the complexity of the brain and the complexity of DPD.

And I'm not sure what your point is. There is far more research into the major mental illnesses anyway. Are you saying we shouldn't be researching DP?
*
And again, why do you seek support here? You seem to feel you don't need it. And bless you if you don't. But many others here have serious problems and need the support here. You seem to be saying we're all overreacting. You need to study neurology to understand that DP that is more than transient, that sticks around, that affects one's ability to work and love is an illness.

We aren't competing over who has the worst illness. And some people do better with coping, therapy, meds than others. That's true of all phsyical illnesses.*

Is it worse that Christopher Reeve died from breaking his neck, that Ed Bradley just passed away from leukemia, that Michael J. Fox has Parkinson's, that William Styron had suicidal depression, that Arthur Ashe died of AIDS from a blood transfusion, that someone has DP from a braiin tumor, or from something we don't yet understand.

How do you compare these things. You can't.
We're just trying to be supportive of each other here.

Best,
D
Boy I am all hopped up and cannot sleep. :evil:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Errr double post.

Thing is. There is indeed DP/DR that exist on their own and are disabling in one way or another. There is also DP/DR that comes with or is comorbid with a bunch of other mental/neurological disorders.

You aren't giving the brain enough credit for its tremendous complexity.

You also imply, as some do, that we're all making a big deal out of nothing.

Even among schizophrenics ... and I've met a number ... some can function very well, and others can barely function -- on their meds.

I have no doubt in my mind that DP/DR are neurological in origin, just as are other mental illnesses. It can be more or less severe, chronic or episodic, responsive to meds or not, response to therapy or not.

I'm still curious navad why you are here, on a support forum, if you don't feel you or (many of us?) have nothing wrong with us. Can you explain?

Many here are new to DP. Are young. I'm an old lady 8) -- my illness has changed over the years. I don't have the same worries, but I still have the perceptual distortion. I have learned to live within my limitations. I know others who've had this their entire lives, have children, jobs. It doesn't mean they aren't miserable.

It's like arthritis -- one day you can get up and dance, another day you can't get out of bed for the pain.

OK, boring TV now I guess.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

One last thing. The diagnosis MPD no longer exists ... or "Multiple Personality Disorder". It is now called DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder. They're still trying to figure that one out.

Many people don't believe it exists.

That is rather sad to see someone with SOMETHING going on, but we don't understand what. I think it will be figured out ultimately. You consider it very serious, and yet you use a word that no longer exists. Doctors have a bit more understanding and have already relabled it as DID.


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## greatnavad (Feb 23, 2006)

Hello Dreamer Madam,
How you doin? 

1. I have never said we shouldnt support each other on this forum..In fact , thats the reason why i am here. i usually check out the Newbies Forum and try and help them in same way that i was helped when i thought the world was gonna end.
When i didnt even know what this shit was, the people at MSN chat room, people like ron, Richard calmed me down saying this was dealable shit, all we have to do was stop obessing over it and it will pass, we can return back to life.
And it did happen.
You are suggesting a very morose and bleak picture of DP which shouldnt be so.

WHICH brings us to the million dollar question , what is DP in itself and what is DP along with a myriad of symptoms(which even homer couldnt have conjured up).

Check out this http://www.depersonalization.info/overview.html 
(i know, being as knowledgeable as u are , you should already be aware of)
It clearly talks about DP's Symptoms, But it is NEVER as BLEAK as you are making it out to be.
QUOTE : 
" In time, depersonalized people can make some accommodations to the condition, Janiger says. They know it won't kill them or make them insane. It isn't a progressive illness. It may constitute a subtle alteration of perception. It's more like adjusting to a pair of glasses that makes everything appear upside down. Eventually one may find ways of adapting."

This is a view that is taught in many other chat rooms as well.
Of course, drugs help.
PURE DP is related to SELF,SELF and SELF only.

Despite your HIGHLY EDUCATED post, I believe you have overlooked one important POINT.
HUMAN brain's Ability to adapt.
I beleive that Human brain eventually drags You(whatever you are ) out of shitholes, and enables you to survive.
This is similiar with DP , when i was in throes of DP , i had no interest in lfie, no movies, no gals, no parties, i had to contemplate what this all meant.
of course, with advice of numerous forums on internet(among them being the msn Chatroom), i was able to snap out of it.
Of course, i have never cured of my condition, i still dont connect to my self, and feel like pure hell when i enter those THOUGH QUAGMIRES...

BUT, we eventually adapt, forget, and move on....
I still cant reconcile my self to fact that some of us may have it 24/7 for decades without a reprieve of anykind.

Maybe this is a case when we get tooo old to get our minds OFF the bloody illness and all we do is THINK.

please forgive if iam sounding indifferent or arrogant.
I too am a sufferer and let there be doubt in that.


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## flowingly (Aug 28, 2005)

if you do not consider it an illness, what are you doing on this site?

i suffer from dr 24/7. i'm gone. i'm beyond help. i'm not suicial..because i'm so far past dr that i'm in some new place. if you lived even one hour in my shoes, you'd realize how f**kin stupid your question is. pardon my swearing, but your post is simply ridiculous.

if you're just trying to be technical, let's look at the word "illness"

webster dictionary describes "illness" as "an unhealthy condition of body or mind." please...try to convince me that dr or dp otherwise.

if "disorder" is the word you're looking for, please seek a dictionary. it is defined as "to disturb the regular or normal functions of." again, you're welcome to try to convince me otherwise.

if you do not suffer as i do from my dr, and it appears clearly that you do not, please do not trivialize others' pain.


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## greatnavad (Feb 23, 2006)

Flowingly,
I apologize if u felt hurt,
but i reckon you should have read my last post.
I dont talk on this subject as a naive outsider.
I have been through this shit since years, have gone through the darkest times you can imagine.

I only wanted to start an educated debate.
I wanted to acess the point that DP isnt Illness, it can also be state of mind. a state of mind which even has a spiritual angle.


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## PAXIS (Aug 12, 2006)

Wow.. making a thread like this here of all places, way to piss everyone off.


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2006)

> it can also be state of mind. a state of mind which even has a spiritual angle.


The mind isn't real damnit!


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

*I agree with someone else who said this is an odd topic to have on a support forum. Also, why is it bad to be knowledgeable? I have to apologize for research? I try to educate people about Mental Illness of all kinds. You take away from the work of thousands of people the world over doing the same thing and even more thousands researching. So I'm a freak for being interested in the brain. Excuse me! Jeez.:roll:

If it were a cancer forum, there would be positive experiences and negative ones. I happen to have chronic DP/DR. I'm simply telling my story. THIS IS NOT EVERYONE'S STORY Some people have very postive stories. This is why I rarely get to express MY experience as I get attacked. I don't ask for support here, and I need it, but I get the whole "You're so negative, Dreamer" crap.

If I had incurable cancer, would you say the same thing. I have been told since the age of 15 that MY particular DP is not as responsive to treatment than other forms. That has been the universal response to my diagnosis. I didn't make that up! But I feel better than I did as a child and through my 30s. That's progress.*

Here's a current article about DP. It appears to be cognitive and perceptual. Why the Hell would they be researching it if it's nothing. Do you know how difficult it is to get money for research. No it doesn't all come from drug companies. You need grants. It's more difficult to get a grant for mental health disorders than just about any other.

*Fine, go to another forum that is more positive, or don't read MY posts. There are very positive people here with successful outcomes as well. I'm only talking about MY experience. Is anyone who writes about their own experience, truthfully, being negative. There is a book out called "Wasted" about a woman with chronic anorexia/bulimia that nearly killed her. Is she not ill? Is she indulging in her illness? Is her research a waste of time? It is only HER experiece.*
------------------------------------------------------------
*I found this quotation fascinating from the NYTimes re: a young girl with a billion mental problems, and the reason behind it is the brain is the center of everything in our bodies, we can't examine it properly, only during brain surgeries. The brain controls how you BREATHE, why you have sexual feelings, why you can see and hear, and why you have dreams, why you have perceptual problems, mood problems, cognitive problems, etc., etc.

Again, remember, AIDS has taken 25 years of research, and there is no cure ... they may be heading that way. There is no vaccine against HIV. 25 years! I always bring that up. ONE LITTLE VIRUS. Top of the research list. No one can figure the damned thing.*
------------------------------------------------------------------
Quotation in today's NYTimes
"Psychiatry has made great strides in helping kids manage mental illness, particularly moderate conditions, but the system of diagnosis is still 200 to 300 years behind other branches of medicine."
DR. E. JANE COSTELLO, a professor of psychiatry at Duke University.

No KIDDING. You can't go dissecting the brain until a person is dead, and can't see it the same way save in operations when someone is alive. Also, we use animal models, primate models. Did you know primates can become mentally ill? Anxous, depressed, etc. We can't ask them if they have DP, lol.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Article: I suppose these people are wasting their time.

* Psychiatry Res. 2006 Nov 3; [Epub ahead of print] Links
Emotional memory in depersonalization disorder: A functional MRI study.

Medford N, 
Brierley B, 
Brammer M, 
Bullmore ET, 
David AS, 
Phillips ML.
Division of Psychological Medicine, P.O. Box 68, Institute of Psychiatry, DeCrespigny Park, London SE5 8AF, UK.*

"This study examines emotional memory effects in primary depersonalization disorder (DPD). A core complaint of DPD sufferers is the dulling of emotional responses, and previous work has shown that, in response to aversive stimuli, DPD patients do not show activation of brain regions involved in normal emotional processing.

We hypothesized that DPD sufferers would not show the normal emotional enhancement of memory, and that they would not show activation of brain regions concerned with emotional processing during encoding and recognition of emotional verbal material.

Using fMRI, 10 DPD patients were compared with an age-matched healthy control group while performing a test of emotional verbal memory, comprising one encoding and two recognition memory tasks.

 DPD patients showed significantly enhanced recognition for overtly emotive words, but did not show enhancement of memory for neutral words encoded in an emotive context.

In addition, patients did not show activation of emotional processing areas during encoding, and exhibited no substantial difference in their neural responses to emotional and neutral material in the encoding and emotional word recognition tasks.

 This study provides further evidence that patients with DPD do not process emotionally salient material in the same way as healthy controls, in accordance with their subjective descriptions of reduced or absent emotional responses.
PMID: 17085021 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

*Related Links/Articles*
Depersonalization disorder: thinking without feeling.[Psychiatry Res. 2001]
(we know this one article already)

Differential amygdala activation during emotional decision and recognition memory tasks using unpleasant words: an fMRI study.[Neuropsychologia. 2001]

Emotional context during encoding of neutral items modulates brain activation not only during encoding but also during recognition.[Neuroimage. 2005]

Emotional memory: separating content and context.[Psychiatry Res. 2005]
Corticolimbic blood flow during nontraumatic emotional processing in posttraumatic stress disorder.[Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2006]
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*Sorry I've ruined your day, navad. You HAVE hurt a lot of people here. You haven't hurt me, you just tick me off. You have no empathy. I can't take a lack of empathy in someone.

Go to the other more positive forums. You don't have to attack people here. Also there is section ON THIS FORUM about recovery. No one is forcing you to read "negative posts" and again that is MY experience, not everyone elses.*

D :roll: 
I'm done with this. It is a useless debate. Especially since I'm "Ms. Hopeless Genius" ??????? OMG. Go figure. Per a cognitive test I had in the 1980s my IQ is 80 ... below average. My DP/DR interfere with my ability to concentrate. That's a cognitive disability I have no control over.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

If you take the definition of illness from the dictionary then DP in effect could be classified as an illness. To say it is a disease is fairly strong words, all about semantics i guess. I dont believe it is incurable as greatnavad said though I do agree with some of the other things he discussed.

ill?ness (lns) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "illness" [P]
n.

1. Poor health resulting from disease of body or mind; sickness.


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## greatnavad (Feb 23, 2006)

> To say it is a disease is fairly strong words, all about semantics i guess.


That was the point i was trying to encourage a debate on around here..


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

greatnavad said:


> > To say it is a disease is fairly strong words, all about semantics i guess.
> 
> 
> That was the point i was trying to encourage a debate on around here..


Yeah thats what I interpreted from your post, but other people can get a bit touchy when they read other things into it.


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2006)

I do think this is an issue of semantics. Not sure.

Schizophrenia is an illness (organic), like bi-polar is.

MPD (DID) and amnesia are disorders (psychological).
I myself categorize DP as a disorder, on a continuum of severity. Others may categorize it as an illness.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

greatnavad said:


> Firstly, most of the symptoms are related to Depression,anxiety and other things which are hardly SERIOUS illness.


 You dont think depression is a serious illness? Youve got to be fukkin kidding me. If you think depression is not a serious illness the obviously you have never had major depression.

If you think depression is not a serious illness then why do thousand's of people kill themselves every year because of it. Ive come close to it a few times myself.

And for the record yes i do think dp/dr is a illness. I had crippling dp/dr and anxiety for most of my life. For awile i couldnt function at all. Granted mine mostly seemed to be due to my anxiety.

But other people on here (such as dreamer) seem to have a more pure and harder to treat form of dp/dr.


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2006)

Numb i really wanna no why you haven't gone to med school haha, you know more then most doctors i've talked 2.


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## Jane (Aug 14, 2006)

> Check out this http://www.depersonalization.info/overview.html
> (i know, being as knowledgeable as u are , you should already be aware of)
> It clearly talks about DP's Symptoms, But it is NEVER as BLEAK as you are making it out to be.
> QUOTE :
> ...


I have to agree with you there. I think there are three types of DP, psychosomatic, seconday to another illness such as epilepsy and neurobiological - HOWEVER, I'm willing to bet that pure neurobiological DP effects less than 1% of the people on this forum, and that those with the condition - there is a case study I've read of one such person who underwent PET scans that showed significant metabolic changes in his brain - do NOT worry about losing their 'self'. 'Self' is not a medical term, it is philosophical. DP, in terms of the feeling of 'losing your self', is just a FEELING. There is no medical research on 'loss of self', 'self' falls under a spiritual category. There aren't medical illnesses that crossover with spiritual or philosophical ideas. Now, before anybody attacks me, I'll let you know I've done research. Epilepsy can cause 'spiritual awakenings' as can schizophrenia and many other illnesses, however, you cannot compare 'loss of self' to any medical disorder - there is NO science behind spirituality. Perhaps this is why there is little research about DP, because people are so intent on the mystical side of the symptom, or the supposed spirital connections, that no doctor will look at the symptom seriously. If any doctor came to this board and read a few of the posts, she'd most likely believe that the majority of posters are simply complainers. Again, I don't wish to make anybody angry with this comment - I KNOW how DP feels. I've BEEN through it, spiritual musings and all. And guess what? The time I started to break away from it was the time I got DISTRACTED and FOCUSED on more useful things. The majority of the posts here are REALLY downers, and when I read them while I had the symptom of DP, I was SURE I'd never get 'back' to 'reality'. I got sucked in to a lot of whining and a lot of b-shit. There are some EXTREMELY helpful posts on this site, and some VERY INTELLIGENT individuals here - however - sometimes all of the 'knowledge' is too much of a good thing. It's called WALLOWING, people. My hypochondria is at its worse when I read about illnesses - it's as if I'm reminding myself that I must be 'ill'. I think that's what this site does for many, unfortunately. Pins a label on perfectly normal feelings. I know for one that I'd have been better off without this site, most likely recovered in half the time. 
Dreamer - I recognize the severity of your symptoms, however, I believe you spend far too much time dwelling on mental illness. You are extremely well-informed, and all of your posts are highly articulate - which makes me believe that you have far more 'cognitive abilities' than you say you do. People who have difficulty concentrating don't write up gigantic posts full of research and facts. They can't concentrate that long. I've caught you in some posts saying things that contradict your earlier posts - I do recall reading once that you were in fact nearly back in 'reality' when you were with a friend. However, if I am wrong, please don't be offended.

A lot of people on this site post that they 'have no feelings', except despair or anxiety. Well I hate to say it, but those are emotions too. Pure, neurobiological DP, comes without anxiety or depression - the metabolic changes in the brain make it this way. That's science, that's not lack of self or loss of reality. 
A lot of this is anxiety, people. It's anxiety, depression. It's PHILOSOPHY. 
This is a very real symptom. It occurs in all types of illnesses, from epilepsy to anxiety. 
People adapt because they have to if they want to survive. Dreamer, sometimes I wonder how you could be 'trying so hard' to overcome DP if much of what you do is - take no offence - wallow in it. Post about it, read about it, think think think about it. It seems to me you are extremely intelligent and have accomplished huge things in your life. However, your DP is a self-fufilling prophecy - you've created a website and everything. If you were cured, suddenly that label, that 'self' would disappear, and because you've spent - what have you said, 33 years? - as a DP-'Sufferer', could you honestly see a full life for yourself without it? If you can't, I think that's the dilema. As cancer patients have to deal with as well, you AREN'T the disease, the disease is a PART of your life. DP - the symptom, the illness, the thought, whatever you want to call it - is a PART of life. No need to get suicidal over it - and trust me, I did feel this way in the past over it, particularly after reading depressing posts on this site about how 'chronic' and 'difficult to treat' this symptom is. I'm over that now, I made the changes I should have long ago. Once one understands the difference between science and philosophy, it gets a little easier.



> This is why I rarely get to express MY experience as I get attacked. I don't ask for support here, and I need it, but I get the whole "You're so negative, Dreamer" crap.


That's a lie. You have a whole website about your story. I've seen you post on here with 'rants' that beg for support. You say a lot of things that beg for sympathy from readers. Everybody does, that's what a site like this is for, I suppose. Just don't say you don't do it. You DO.

I'm quite interested in seeing how you turn your story into a book, and if it would be strictly factual or an autobiography or what, and when you plan to publish it.



> That was the point i was trying to encourage a debate on around here..


I see nothing wrong with that at all. If one doesn't agree, one doesn't have to read or post in this section.



> There is a book out called "Wasted" about a woman with chronic anorexia/bulimia that nearly killed her. Is she not ill? Is she indulging in her illness? Is her research a waste of time? It is only HER experiece


Did she spend hours on sites like these? Did she refuse to get better, did she resist treatment, doctors, common sense?

I've read on the Iop site that there is development of CBT specifically for DP symptoms underway. I think if DP were ONLY a NEUROBIOLOGICAL illness, it'd be pretty hard to overcome with CBT. Think of panic disorder - there are two components, thought and biology. There is indeed physical changes in the brain of a pd sufferer - however, it is the thoughts that must change their nature to interpret the symptoms in a different fashion. CBT seems to help in some 90% of pd cases, so I've read. That's thought and science right there, folks. No philosophy, no 'chronic' about it.

As I said, I think there are three types of DP: psychosomatic, seconday to another illness such as epilepsy and neurobiological. I don't believe this is ONLY neurobiological, as Dreamer states.

]


> One last thing. The diagnosis MPD no longer exists ... or "Multiple Personality Disorder". It is now called DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder. They're still trying to figure that one out.
> 
> Many people don't believe it exists.


I've never met anyone who thinks it doesn't exist. I've met people who are uninformed about mental illnesses, but never those who don't believe in this particular one (DID).



> I'm done with this. It is a useless debate. Especially since I'm "Ms. Hopeless Genius" ??????? OMG. Go figure. Per a cognitive test I had in the 1980s my IQ is 80 ... below average. My DP/DR interfere with my ability to concentrate. That's a cognitive disability I have no control over.


You seem rather intelligent to me. You seem to have control over cognitive ability when posting on this site, when making your own site.

Unfortunately, for a self-help site, there are a lot of people who don't want to help themselves.
Sorry to any I offend, just realize that opinions are opinions, but there ARE certain facts that you can't argue with. I see no problems in this thread. I see problems in how offended people get about something they read on an Internet website.


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## Methusala (Dec 22, 2005)

Jane, your sadistic attack on Dreamer and apparently most users of this site is beneath contempt. You may like to get your kicks out of attacking people with mental illness but it won't go unchallenged here. Your obvious message of hatred will fail completely.

M


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2006)

Bottom line, the creators of this website did not spend their time nor their money for debates, they spent it so that sufferes of this disorder could cope and realize there were others out there with this problem. This post should not have been done in the first place, we dont need to have debates on whether this is an illness or not. Personally i think that anyone who has this couldn't see it as anything but an illness. However, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but this is not the place to start a debate. We're not on crossfire here, we're on dpselfhelp.com. Thank you, and good day


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Though I won't dignify most of what you said Jane, or whomever says I'm "wallowing" in my illness ....

I said:
There is a book out called "Wasted" about a woman with chronic anorexia/bulimia that nearly killed her. Is she not ill? Is she indulging in her illness? Is her research a waste of time? It is only HER experiece

Jane you said:
"Did she spend hours on sites like these? Did she refuse to get better, did she resist treatment, doctors, common sense?"

1. You may not realize this, but I am 47. There was no internet when I grew up. I didn't get on the internet until I was 42? I had no one to talk about re: this except therapists who had no answers. As far as I knew I was among about 4 people on earth with this disorder.

2. Someone with anorexia has to fight with it their whole life. Karen Carpenter, singer of "The Carpenters" died at age 30 from starving to death from anorexia. She was bright and talented and couldn't stop binging and purging despite all the medical help in the world.

3. Tracey Gold -- young actress, now in her 30s I believe. She is still fighting it. Anorexia is another illness people like you "don't get."

"Well why doesn't that idiot women just eat? WTF is wrong with her. Pull yourself together bitch." -- well, it doesn't work that way.

I won't justify the rest of your comments as the bulk of them are absurd.

I told you the IQ test revealed my IQ at the time was 80. I know I am intelligent. I have to work harder is all. But you don't think I work at all. I only wallow.

4. Minor lack of knowledge again. Read Ramachandran and other neurologists re: being able to observe spirituality in the brain indeed. Ramachandran, psychiatrist and neurologist has found that in some of his seizure patients, he is conflicted re: helping them. He had one patient who had so many seizures a day he could barely do anything else.

He also had a massive "spiritual awakening" when these seizures started.

Ramachandran knew from past surgeries to help such people that they lost their spirituality, or rather these major grandiose experiences that gave them so much pleasure and comfort, when he performed surgery to stop the seizures.

With this young man he felt he would take away something beautiful while taking away something that was killing him.

Ignorance is bliss.

I work hard every day, at other things. I have fought my way through yeras without the help of anyone, including an internet. Psychiatrists and meds and pushing on my own.

I won't dignify a lack of empathy. That's all that's wrong with you, Jane.

Let's see, I sing, I play piano, I quilt, I know HTML, I have acted in theatre and film, I have produced theatre and film, I have built a website. My book is an autobiography. I have horrible days, and yes, "brief moments" when I feel better. Brief, "moments of clarity". I haven't had one for three years. I had one four years ago.

Don't take my words out of context.
Don't belittle me or others here.

Done, there is no changing someone who thinks the way you do. Again, lack of knowledge is a dangerous thing. And a mind is a terrible thing to waste, eh?

Love y'all,
Dreamer the Wallowing, Pitiful, Faker, with the low IQ 
[/quote]


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## Jane (Aug 14, 2006)

> You may like to get your kicks out of attacking people with mental illness but it won't go unchallenged here. Your obvious message of hatred will fail completely.


??? Wow, I'm quite sorry if I seem to be the 'full of hatred type'. I'm not exactly sure where this comes from - I really don't believe I've said anything to express hatred at all, nor do I see why I would post some sort of 'message of hatred' on this board. It's not as if I don't have a complete understanding of what it means to be 'mentally ill', and I'm not sure why I would wish to 'attack' those that are - I have better things to do with my time. However, I've seen a trend in the way posts work on this site. A lot of people do work to change their lives around, and one can see in the attitude of their posts that they are indeed getting better, and this site is doing the good job it intends to. And then some users seem to go in circles, posting the same complaints every day. 
That's just an observation. This thread is just full of opinions. Nobody should get angry over what is being said. I'm very sorry I've made people angry. I suppose I'll just quit posting then, or at least only post in neutral threads, as I'd rather not upset people who are in various degrees of mental anguish. I'm extremely surprised at the hostility these threads can bring up - to me this just seemed like an innocent topic, like any of the others. Pardon my huge mistake.



> Anorexia is another illness people like you "don't get.


I am extremely offended by this. My close friend has had to deal with anorexia. If you want to know, I've experienced and dealt with many 'mental illnesses'. 'People like me' GET it. Trust me. I have my own psychiatrist, I take Zoloft. I've done plenty of research in the area of psychiarty and psychology. I am one of the least ignorant people when it comes to mental illnesses - I know about them, first-hand or otherwise. You assume just because I criticise this site, I am 'one of them' - those revered mentally healthy people. I've read the book you mentioned. I know the illnesses.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

http://www.amazon.com/Wasted-Anorexia-B ... F8&s=books

*Wasted: A Memoir of Anorexia and Bulimia*
By Marya Hornbacher

Another wallower.

Read it.
Read "A Tour of Human Consciousness" and "Phantoms in the Brain" by V.S. Ramachandran. Those books take me longer to read because of my concentration problems. I also did badly in school but my musical talents got me into university where I failed out one year. I fought to get back in and get my MA.

Give me fucking break, and read a fucking book every so often, maybe even a magazine article or a newspaper. When I grew up reading was required, TV was not an option. No internet and I used a typewriter.

I survived. I'm still here.
Sorry for ranting, to all the others here I respect very deeply.

Thank you.
Now I'm done


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## greatnavad (Feb 23, 2006)

Jane, There is no Point in talking to people who dont appreciate a debate.

BUT, Lets not get personal here becos we all are suffering here it wont make things any better.
Couple of points i totally agree on with you

1.Some people actually read thousands of books on this illness, do lot of research yet overlook a basic fact that DP preys on fear and cyclic thoughts.
The best way to combat DP is to forget about DP.
Now this was an advice i recived from other chat rooms and on implementing it, needless to say, i HAVE been back to normal.
This is fundamental difference b/w DP and other mental illnesses.
You cant forget about schizhophrenia and get better.

Having said that we are all entitled to RANTS here in times of crisis, but overdoing wouldnt be good to anyone.

2.we have to recognize that DP's Severity has a whole range of symptoms, ranging from mild to severe.
However, it is my belief that PURE DP of the "SELFLESS" kind is largely dealable thing, provided you have the right advice and guidance.
Now this is borne out by my own experience.
HOW DR changes this (if DR exists with DP) is alltogether another question.

3.I have nothing against this site, I believe its Doing excellent job already, But onus has to change from a degree of "WELCOME TO HELL, LETS ROCK AND ROLL" TO "CALM DOWN CHAPS, we have been through it , its gonna get better". This is SOOO important when ur new to this thing.
I have seen the "INTRODUCE YOURSELF" posts.
ITs like "We can safely say you have DP. PERIOD.".
Its like saying " you have AIDS.PERIOD"

4. DP has a LOT (EVERYONE WILL wanna kill me for this) to DO WITH OBESSING. REading on it, thinking about it and giving it undue importance will only make things worse.

5. There is a Definately SPIRITUAL ANGLE TO PURE DP.
read buddha and he says(2500 years ago) " what is self but a fleeting moment, its is the constant stream of thoughts , what we have just thought , NO MORE".
OF course, what came first DP or Sprituality , is a chicken and egg question.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

I think you have some very valid points Jane, as well as greatnavad too about the obsessing bit.


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## maccapretz (Jun 12, 2006)

damn i saw this topic n i thought what the hell?

how the hell can this not be an illness, its like not even exisiting, u cant go to jobs, u cant live a normal life, man i didnt read all the replies to this topic but i was just really upset reading the first couple, and didnt want to continue, i hope one day this illness is recognised and i believe it will be, and when it is everyone who doesnt suffer will feel some sort of empathy towards those who do. i if i could have one day of freedom, i would chose that over anything.


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## maccapretz (Jun 12, 2006)

argh u come here for support, i read this site all the time id ont post much but i feel comfort, now after this i feel nothing here i feel what i do with my friends around me who dont care. this isnt want this is meant to be.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2006)

It's not up to any of you to decide, leave it to professional doctors. You all should be worrying about how to help yourselves get better instead of wondering about small crap like the classification of depersonalization. It's all crap get to work


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