# Is God's Will being done on earth?



## LOSTONE

http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/200 ... cle_01.htm

I just thought some of you might want to read this.

Let me know what you think "only if you read the whole thing".


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## flipwilson

Well what ive usually been taught is that we have free will, and we also have the devil who the bible says is the ruler of this world. So i dont think everything is Gods will. This doesnt discount the fact that God is obviously allowing these things to take place, but if he didnt then wed never know evil thus never knowing good, basically wed be puppets.

God would rather not see these take place but thats what free will does. The Bible does talk about trials though, so i believe some things are allowed to happen to make us stronger. Sorry i dont know my bible all too well but i believe there is a part where Christ talks about pain being allowed to show the strength of God, to glorify his strength.


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## CECIL

The universe/god doesn't care about you personally. Every experience can be positive if you learn and grow from it. Everyone has the freedom to create their own lives and the universe/god doesn't judge you for it.


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## LOSTONE

flipwilson it seems like you have a pretty good idea about why God allows us to go through so much pain.

I have to point out though that it is surly not pleasing to God at all what we are dealing with here. It actually hurts God to have to see us going through this.

Genesis 6:5-7
5 Consequently Jehovah saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time. 6 And Jehovah felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart. 7 So Jehovah said: ?I am going to wipe men whom I have created off the surface of the ground, from man to domestic animal, to moving animal and to flying creature of the heavens, because I do regret that I have made them.?

That was back before the flood of Noah's day. Notice that is says that God was hurt at his heart because of the badness on the earth. It is obviously painful for him to have to watch what is going on here. We are his creation and it is not his desire for us to suffer.

Here is some good reading to help you understand why suffering is allowed.

http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/200 ... cle_01.htm
http://www.watchtower.org/library/g/200 ... cle_01.htm
http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/200 ... cle_01.htm
http://www.watchtower.org/library/dg/article_06.htm

Understanding why God allows suffering is probably the hardest thing to grasp because there is so much evil going on in this world. None of the evil going on in this world is a result of anything God has done though. 
This is what the bible says about God.

De 32:3-5
3 For I shall declare the name of Jehovah.
Do YOU attribute greatness to our God!

4 The Rock, perfect is his activity,
For all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice;
Righteous and upright is he.

5 They have acted ruinously on their own part;
They are not his children, the defect is their own.
A generation crooked and twisted!

Humanity has went down this path on it's own. We have disregarded our creator and this is the result of our actions. God is allowing these things to happen because we are proving that none of God's creations were created with the ability to rule over themselves.

The situation we are in is something like a classroom. 
Imagen being in a classroom and while the teacher is trying to teach the class a student gets up and says that the teacher is wrong. What could the teacher do? The teacher could toss the student out of the class but how would that prove that the teacher was correct and that the student was wrong? The teacher would have to give the student a chance to prove that he was right. That way everyone would be able to see the results of that student's teaching for themselves.

God is not ruling this world. 
He has given up authority of this world to Satan. 
Just in the same way that a teacher would let a student try to prove the teacher wrong. Jehovah God is allowing Satan the devil to rule over this world so that all can see the bad results of leaving God. So that for the rest of eternity God's right to rule over creation will never be called into question again.

1 John 5:19
We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one.



> The universe/god doesn't care about you personally. Every experience can be positive if you learn and grow from it. Everyone has the freedom to create their own lives and the universe/god doesn't judge you for it.


CECIL what you said may be your own opinion but I just want to show you that it is not what the bible teaches.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ??As I am alive,? is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ?I take delight, not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living. Turn back, turn back from YOUR bad ways, for why is it that YOU should die, O house of Israel???

Isaiah 57:15
For this is what the High and Lofty One, who is residing forever and whose name is holy, has said: ?In the height and in the holy place is where I reside, also with the one crushed and lowly in spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly ones and to revive the heart of the ones being crushed.

2Ti 2:19
For all that, the solid foundation of God stays standing, having this seal: ?Jehovah knows those who belong to him,? and: ?Let everyone naming the name of Jehovah renounce unrighteousness.?

Mt 10:29,30
29 Do not two sparrows sell for a coin of small value? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without YOUR Father?s [knowledge]. 30 But the very hairs of YOUR head are all numbered. 31 Therefore have no fear: YOU are worth more than many sparrows.

There are actually many religious teachers out in the world that would even agree with you CECIL. There are many people teaching that God does not really care about people but this is not a bible teaching.


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## CECIL

LOSTONE said:


> CECIL what you said may be your own opinion but I just want to show you that it is not what the bible teaches.


Yes it is my opinion based on my direct experience of God. Nevermind, carry on guys 

*Slowly exits thread*


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## LOSTONE

> Yes it is my opinion based on my direct experience of God. Nevermind, carry on guys Wink
> 
> *Slowly exits thread*


LOL
:lol:

CECIL there are different God's you know.

If God is being mean to you then maybe you need to find a new one. :wink:


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## Guest

So christians accept there is more Gods?
How can this be

again no debate just tryin to undersand the religion ive kept most distance from


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## LOSTONE

True Christians should accept that there are other God's because the bible speaks of other Gods very often.

Ex 12:12
And I must pass through the land of Egypt on this night and strike every firstborn in the land of Egypt, from man to beast; and *on all the gods of Egypt* I shall execute judgments. *I am Jehovah.*

Bold's added by myself.

Ex 20:2-5
2 ?I am Jehovah your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves. 3 You must not have any other gods against my face.

4 ?You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. 5 You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion

Judges 2:17-19
17 And even to their judges they did not listen, but they had immoral intercourse with other gods and went bowing down to them. They quickly turned aside from the way in which their forefathers had walked by obeying the commandments of Jehovah. They did not do like that. 18 And when Jehovah did raise up judges for them, Jehovah proved to be with the judge, and he saved them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for Jehovah would feel regret over their groaning because of their oppressors and those who were shoving them around.

19 And it occurred that when the judge died they would turn around and act more ruinously than their fathers by walking after other gods to serve them and bow down to them. They did not refrain from their practices and their stubborn behavior.

1Co 8:5,6
5 For even though there are those who are called ?gods,? whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many ?gods? and many ?lords,? 6 there is actually to us one God the Father

The bible also speaks of the "God of this system of things"
2Co 4:4
among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

That scripture notes two different Gods. There is the God of this system of things and then there is the other God who is the creator of the universe.

The God that the bible is usually speaking about is "Jehovah"
Jehovah is the most well known English translation of the name of the creator of the universe.

That name can be found in about every single translation of the bible at these scriptures.

Ps 83:18 
8 That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,
You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

Ex 6:3
And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but as respects my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to them.

Isaiah 12:2
2 Look! God is my salvation. I shall trust and be in no dread; for Jah Jehovah is my strength and [my] might, and he came to be the salvation of me.?

Isaiah 26:4
4 Trust in Jehovah, YOU people, for all times, for in Jah Jehovah is the Rock of times indefinite.

The name of God actually was wrote in the bible about 7,000 times but it was later removed and replaced with the title "Lord" because of fear of using God's name. Most bible translations have left in the translation of Jehovah's name in those 4 scriptures I listed above.

So yes there are other God's but the bible teaches that there is only one true God, the creator of the universe and other living beings. His name is Jehovah.

Isaiah 42:8
?I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.

I will leave this post with this last scripture.

Joshua 24:15
Now if it is bad in YOUR eyes to serve Jehovah, choose for yourselves today whom YOU will serve, whether the gods that YOUR forefathers who were on the other side of the River served or the gods of the Am?or?ites in whose land YOU are dwelling. But as for me and my household, we shall serve Jehovah.?

Jehovah God's people have always acknowledged other God's. They just do not worship any other God's besides Jehovah because he is the only true God that is worthy of our worship.


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## Guest

really love that book huh

So Krishna Shiva Brahman Allah etc is real?


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## LOSTONE

> So Krishna Shiva Brahman Allah etc is real?


They are real in the sense that people are worshiping them.

I do not believe that any of those Gods are living beings though.

The bible uses the title God to refer to anything or anyone that is being worshiped.

Yet the bible teaches that there is only one true God.


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## LOSTONE

> really love that book huh


I don't like to teach or learn opinions.

If I am talking about the God of the bible then I will use Scriptures from the bible to back up everything that I say.

This is what Jehovah's Witnesses have always done for me whenever they teach me anything about the bible.

If I am talking about other subjects then I try to use sources that would be appropriate for that subject matter.

I don't like to base my beliefs upon opinions.

Although it could be said that it is my opinion that the bible is inspired by God. I have backed my opinions up with facts so that the bases of my beliefs are all based upon evidence and accurate knowledge.


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## Guest

so why tthe fuck are these people having kids when they deny them birthday christmas evee etc.

abuse as hell poor kids growing up guilty of puberty etc personally i wannna bitchslap Jehovas Wtiness when they come to my door

If God gave me any evidence of his existence / creationism Id be a worshipper immedialy but al he shows me is crazyy suffering so eiher he dont give a fuc is incompitent or just sadistic

And dont tell me to speak to God ive tried no response and IF he answers wha abou to schizos who claim God told them to kill someone has they really heard God or delusion


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## dizzy

If I'm incorrect or jumping on the Jehova bashing band wagon---please forgive. But.....don't Witnesses believe that there are "reservations" in "heaven" for only so many souls; those who do the most work on Earth to earn their spot. If I'm not completely incorrect----doesn't that then mean that you are NOT really interested in helping your fellow man---you are working to save yourself. Hence the smiling, pushy, regurgative,long-windedness. 
I haven't read the bible in a few years but; here's a crazy thought...."God created man in His own image". 
"HIS"---refering to MAN, not God. i.e. God(whatever that energy is)gave man the ability to create himself in any way he so chooses.
I think the bible may have alot of profound and helpful information but it has been and continues to be grotesquely misinterpreted and shoveled to the masses.
The people on this forum (i assume) want real answers------not blind BS! Trying to swollow BS is probably why most of the people on this site feel so "not-right". I don't mean to sound hostile---I've tried the religion thing too----felt more like abuse than love.


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## Guest

emotiions evolved from evolution so if here is a God he can neither be good/bad love/hate etc


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## CECIL

LOSTONE said:


> CECIL there are different God's you know.


God isn't being mean to me, its just that my views differ from yours. Therefore I can't keep posting in this thread without debating and this isn't the debate section.

So keep it up and good luck


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## LOSTONE

> so why tthe flower* are these people having kids when they deny them birthday christmas evee etc.
> 
> abuse as hell poor kids growing up guilty of puberty etc personally i wannna bitchslap Jehovas Wtiness when they come to my door
> 
> If God gave me any evidence of his existence / creationism Id be a worshipper immedialy but al he shows me is crazyy suffering so eiher he dont give a fuc is incompitent or just sadistic
> 
> And dont tell me to speak to God ive tried no response and IF he answers wha abou to schizos who claim God told them to kill someone has they really heard God or delusion


If you ever talk to any of the Jehovah's Witness children then your opinions about how they are raised will probably change. These children in general are loved more then any other children on earth. Jehovah's Witness parents love their children each and every day of the year. The children are not forced into the religion in the same way children of other religions are forced to get baptized at birth. Jehovah's Witness children are shown the truth of the bible and then the choice of getting baptized is up to them.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not need any one special day in order to let their children know that they love them.

If you want to better understand why Christmas is not observed by Jehovah's Witnesses then you should look up the history of Christmas and think about the hypocrisy of that holiday. Christmas spirit and the Christmas holiday are supposed to all about Jesus birth. IF you do not believe in Jesus then why are you observing the holiday? If you do believe in Jesus then you should know that Jesus was not born in December! Actually the bible does not say when Jesus was born exactly. It only gives us clues that let us know it is very unlikely that Jesus was born in December.

The real history of Christmas is a pagan one. It was a grafting of the roman holiday Saturnalia with the Christian faith. The Romans did this in order to get the people under control. They wanted to be able to get everyone Christian/Pagan's to be observing the same holidays so there would not be divisions among the people of Rome.

Down through history Christmas has become even more messed up year after year and gaining more and more pagan values and traditions.

It is not up to Jehovah's Witnesses to defend their not observing the holiday. It is up to everyone else to provide a reason for observing the holiday. If you are not religious then why are you observing a pagan holiday that obviously have a great deal to do with religion? If you are religious then way are you observing a pagan holiday that has nothing to do with your religion at all?

The answer to why people observe Christmas is simply because of tradition. Most people do not give any thought to the things that they do. Jehovah's Witnesses think about everything that they do because they do not wish to displease their God.

Christmas is a pagan religious holiday and anyone that takes the bible seriously would not be observing Christmas.

When it comes to Birthdays the bible does not clearly say that it is a sin to observe a birthday. But what the bible does say about birthdays gives us an idea of how God must view them. There are only two birthdays noted in the bible. Both of them resulted in someone having their head chopped off as the birthday gift.

Gen 40:20-22
20 Now on the third day it turned out to be Phar?aoh?s birthday, and he proceeded to make a feast for all his servants and to lift up the head of the chief of the cupbearers and the head of the chief of the bakers in the midst of his servants. 21 Accordingly he returned the chief of the cupbearers to his post of cupbearer, and he continued to give the cup into Phar?aoh?s hand. 22 But the chief of the bakers he hung up

Matt 14:6-11
6 But when Herod?s birthday was being celebrated the daughter of He?ro?di?as danced at it and pleased Herod so much 7 that he promised with an oath to give her whatever she asked. 8 Then she, under her mother?s coaching, said: ?Give me here upon a platter the head of John the Baptist.? 9 Grieved though he was, the king out of regard for his oaths and for those reclining with him commanded it to be given; 10 and he sent and had John beheaded in the prison. 11 And his head was brought on a platter and given to the maiden, and she brought it to her mother.

That is all the bible says about birthdays. But if you wish to look up the history of Birthday observation and tradition then you will find that much of the history of birthday observation is also from paganism.

I could go on and talk about each and every holiday that people are observing but there is no point in doing that. What is important to Jehovah's Witnesses is what is wrote down in the bible. There is only one day that the bible tells us to keep observing every year. 
That day was Nissan 14th or April 12th 
Luke 22:19
19 Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: ?This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.?

There are no other days in the bible that we are told to observe.

Again I will say that Jehovah's Witness parents do not need a special day to let their children know that they are loved and cared for.


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## LOSTONE

To answer the question about who will be going to heaven and who will be living on the earth I will simply show you what the bible says.

The bible makes it very clear.

Re 7:4
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:

Re 14:1-3
1 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.

Re 20:6
Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.

Re 5:9,10
9 And they sing a new song, saying: ?You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.?

So the people that will be going to heaven have an exact number that is 144,000. If you read at Re 7:5-8 then you will see this number broken down. This shows that this number is not simply a figurative number but it is a literal 144,000 individuals that will be ruling as kings over the earth.

It is not the hope of most all Jehovah's Witnesses to ever be living in Heaven. The teaching that everyone is either going to goto heaven or hell when they die is not a teaching that comes from the bible.

In addition to the 144,000 the bible speaks of a great crowd of people that will be living here on this earth forever.

Re 7:9,10
9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: ?Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.?

Re 7:13-17
13 And in response one of the elders said to me: ?These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?? 14 So right away I said to him: ?My lord, you are the one that knows.? And he said to me: ?These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.?

It is very clear that these people will be living on the earth.

Psalms 37:29
The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it.

Isaiah 45:18
For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: ?I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.

It is the hope of most Jehovah's Witnesses that they will be able to enjoy life on a paradise earth forever.

Re 2:7
Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations: To him that conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.?


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## LOSTONE

> If I'm not completely incorrect----doesn't that then mean that you are NOT really interested in helping your fellow man---you are working to save yourself. Hence the smiling, pushy, regurgative,long-windedness.


Dizzy it is very clear in the minds of most Jehovah's Witnesses that you can not fool Jehovah God.

If anyone has the attitude that you noted above, then Jehovah's Witnesses believe that God is well aware if it.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that God is aware of everything and every inclination of the heart.

1Samuel 16:7
But Jehovah said to Samuel: ?Do not look at his appearance and at the height of his stature, for I have rejected him. For not the way man sees [is the way God sees], because mere man sees what appears to the eyes; but as for Jehovah, he sees what the heart is.?

Jeremiah 11:20
But Jehovah of armies is judging with righteousness; he is examining the kidneys and the heart. O may I see your vengeance on them, for it is to you that I have revealed my case at law.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that God can be fooled. 
The objective of Jehovah's Witnesses is to preach the good news of God's Kingdom. Not only so that they might save themselves but so that they might save anyone listening to the good message about God's Kingdom.

A Jehovah's Witness lifestyle is a lifestyle of self sacrifice. 
AS I said before, there is not one single Jehovah's Witness in the world that is getting paid for the work that they are doing. It is all voluntary. Even those on the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses do not receive a pay check. There is no way you can possibly attribute selfishness to the preaching work that they are doing around the world.

Many Witnesses have even lost their lives in order to bring the good news of God's Kingdom to hostile lands. They do this out of love for their neighbor and out of love for God. It has nothing to do with selfishness.


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## Guest

Bu its like Jesus was born on May 23th not December 24th so its all fuckedup either way. If he even exised if he came o earh now hed be labled schizophrenic and bipolar.

I know people growin up Jehovas Winess 2 of them became drug addics 2 became black metal lovers who beat christians for fun.
Cant blame em tho

I rather hang out with suicide bombers than Jehovas their simply dangerous and crazy.
Sorry man all hope is lost for u the book has eaten out ur brains

I guess Ill go to hel for being nice but denyin o believe in GOD


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## LOSTONE

> I guess Ill go to hel for being nice but denyin o believe in GOD


God knows everything about you. If you truly are a good person then maybe you will have a chance to live in paradise. Maybe not, that is up to God to decide.

I am not in a position to judge anyone, all I can do is learn about what the bible teaches and pass that information onto other people.

According to the bible we do not even have the right to be judging ourselves. I can not say for sure that I will be saved or that I will be destroyed.



> I know people growin up Jehovas Winess 2 of them became drug addics 2 became black metal lovers who beat christians for fun.
> Cant blame em tho


If that is true then I would be pretty sure that both of those people are probably no longer Jehovah's Witnesses. Jehovah's Witnesses do not make it hard for people to leave the religion. Actually if people are not sticking to the teachings of the bible and they are going against the bible's teachings then they are disfellowshipped.

Ephesians 5:3-5
3 Let fornication and uncleanness of every sort or greediness not even be mentioned among YOU, just as it befits holy people; 4 neither shameful conduct nor foolish talking nor obscene jesting, things which are not becoming, but rather the giving of thanks. 5 For YOU know this, recognizing it for yourselves, that no fornicator or unclean person or greedy person?which means being an idolater?has any inheritance in the kingdom of the Christ and of God.

1Co 5:11
But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.



> I rather hang out with suicide bombers than Jehovas their simply dangerous and crazy.


MentallyIll that is your choice but personally I would rather spend my time with people that are loving and peaceful.



> Sorry man all hope is lost for u the book has eaten out ur brains


I am not sure what hope you are talking about.

If you are talking about the hope that I may become evil and join the world in it's shame and its blood shedding revolt against God then the answer is yes all hope is lost for me and for many of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I would rather live then to die.

I would rather love then to hate.

I have seen what the world has to offer. I have lived through all sorts of hell during my lifetime. I see there is no hope for this world except for the hope found in the bible.

So yes I will admit that the hope for me ever turning back to the world and happily joining the bloody rebellion against God is gone. I will never again take any part in rebellion against Jehovah God.


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## Guest

I can accept this bt no supernatural soul or spirit or after life


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## Rozanne

If you left your body you would believe...but it doesn't matter anyway. Whether you beleive or not...is incidental. I don't know if I believe in the afterlife but I believe in the spirit in this life.


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## Guest

yeah the body can hallucinate no doubt in reality u never leave shit tho
i dont get why people as probles with NDE OBE being "products" of the braiin
when schizos clearly hear voices, see aliens, and aCid heads fly throuh keyholes etc


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## LOSTONE

> but I believe in the spirit in this life.


That is good enough really.

Much of the ideas out there about the "afterlife" are ideas that do not come from the bible. Much of it is just wishful thinking. Or in the case of those religions that say you can never truly die but you only either goto hell or heaven when you die, they are simply trying to put fear into people with graphic images of hell and overly wonderful ideas of heaven.

The bible does not say anywhere that we own a soul or that we have a soul.
It says that we are souls. We are living beings. That is what the word soul means. It basically just means a living being. That is what the Hebrew and Greek words mean that were translated into the word soul.

The idea of us owning something more then what we are is not a teaching from the bible. It is just mens teaching. The bible makes it very clear that we can die and that many people do die all the time. And it says that in that day that you die, you simply return to the ground because the ground is where you came from. From dust to dust.

Ge 3:19
In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.?

According to the bible, that is what happens when you die.

If anyone is teaching you anything different then they are teaching lies.

God is able to bring us back to life and he is able to keep us living if he wants to, but the legacy we have from Adam and Eve is that all of us right now are facing death and that simply means we will return to the ground that we were taken out of.


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## Guest

Deleted..whatever!!!!!!!


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## LOSTONE

Spirit I know a lot of people that think the way you think about the subject of religion.

I remember talking to Martinelv on here about "Truth" because he kept saying there was no real "Truth"

I don't want to go into this very much so I will keep it simple.

There is one reality that we live in. There are many beliefs that people have made up in order to understand this reality and to feel better about their own life or to have a purpose in life or whatever. Religion has even been used many times as a form of entertainment.

But what is really important to remember is that their can only be 1 truth.

There is no such thing as 2 or more truths. There are an endless number of opinions out there and there is an endless number of possibilities but in reality there can only be one single truth.

From our perspective it is easy to believe in just about any possibility. God exists, God don't exist, God is a trinity, God is a single entity, God is evil, God is holy, some people even believe that a volcano is a God. Many people make their own God's out of wood or stone. They know that it is simply wood and stone but they still worship the images that they make for themselves.

The fact is though is that their is only one true history of our universe. Our beliefs are many but the truth is only 1. 
I have thought very deeply and long and hard about the subject and I realize now that no matter what we believe and put our faith into, the truth is the truth and it will always be the truth. Everything else is only lies. In that sense there truly are different God's in this world. Not all things that are worshiped are the same. Some people worship money for example. I also know a man that has called "women" his God, he admits that freely. So it is clear to me anyway that there are different God's and not all of them are the same. Even the God of the bible is worshiped in different ways and therefore those people are actually worshiping a totally different God. Some people believe that their God thinks it is OK to fight in wars. Many people think that their God is actually with them in war and fighting along side with them for their country! My belief about my God Jehovah is that my God is a hater of violence and he does not want his people to be fighting in wars at all.

So I can not say for myself that my God Jehovah is anything like any other Gods. I can not believe that my God and a God of violence have anything to do with each other. It is like saying that "Light" is the same as "Darkness". One God can be very different from the next and they do not all lead into the same direction.

Now everyone on earth may disagree with me about the truth about God but people can not tell me that they worship the same God that I worship if they are not actually paying attention to my God and obeying him.

There are teachings of peace and there are teachings of violence. These teachings are not the same. They are actually directly opposed to each other, they only look the same on the surface because the teachings of violence almost always mask themselves under a veil that looks like peace. If you take a close look into different teachings though then you will find that some of them are very different from others. And therefor the God that is being worshiped is not the same.

Spirit you may want to think about the God Molech that was worshiped back in bible times. The biggest act of worship that people would perform toward this God was to hand over their children to Molech and burn them in the fire of Molech! In the bible it says that this act of worship is something that would not ever even come up into the heart of Jehovah. The bible actually says that Jehovah punished the Israelites for making these child sacrifices toward Molech. That happened when Babylon devastated Jerusalem in 587 BC. Obviously the God Jehovah and the God Molech are very different God's and in reality they are totally opposed from each other.

Same goes for the teaching or "God" of evolution and the God Jehovah.
They are totally opposed and they do not lead to the same end.

There is only one truth about where we came from and where we are going. That is true even though there are millions of different beliefs about what that truth is.

Spirit I would be happy just to see that you understand that their are very clear differences in the many different God's that people put their faith in. 
They are not just different names for the same reality.

There is one reality, I agree with you about that. 
But I do not agree that all beliefs are the same reality or just different aspects of the same reality. There can only be one truth. Everything else besides that truth is nothing more then flat out lies.



> The christians idea of the devil is other religions idea of ignorance.


Either the devil is a real person or he is not. 
Either the devil is the ruler of this world or he is not.

There can only be one truth. 
The devil can not exist at the same time he does not exist. 
It would be a paradox to say that the Devil exists at the same time he does not exist.

Either he does exist and all teachings that he don't exist are lies, or he does not exist and all teachings about the Devils existence are lies.

To sum up my point.

One truth there is about reality (whatever you want to believe that is), and many, many, many lies there are in this world about reality.

Eventually, all the lies will be gone. 
One way or another. 
Then the truth will not be questioned.


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## LOSTONE

Personally all my ideas and opinions about God and about Jesus and about life and the reality of this world come directly from the bible.

For these reasons

1. The bible prophecies are unlike any of man made prophecies, they give exact dates and names and details of events and also they have all come true.

2. The bible was wrote over a span of 1,500 years by many different writers but all the books of the bible show complete unification and they are actually complementary toward each other. This is something that would be impossible for humans to achieve without the aid of God.

3. The bible makes complete sense to me. It answers all of my questions and leaves me doubtless about who God is and why this world is so messed up. It shows us that God is perfect and very loving while at the same time it shows us why so much suffering exists on this earth right now. It also gives us a great deal of hope for our future.

4. The bible has proven to be historically accurate on every single account. Many times being prophetically historically accurate as in the case with the city of Tyre, Babylon, Edom and many other places including even the overthrow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

5. The bible has proven to be scientifically accurate and actually even prophetic in it's scientific knowledge at times. For example Isaiah 40:22 There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth.
At the time when that was wrote, most people believed that the earth was flat. I think Isaiah was alone in saying that the earth was spherical. So that scripture is both prophetic in a way and also scientifically accurate.

One of the biggest reasons for myself is because I have seen the power of the bible with my own eyes. I know of a group of people who follow the bible teachings very closely and they have been able to create a very unified society of peace and love that has spread across the entire Earth. It has even spread into the most remote islands of this earth and in my eyes it is just another fulfillment of bible prophecy, Mt 24:14

There are also other reasons but I won't get into them.

In my eyes, the bible proves itself to be the word of God simply by its message.

It is up to all of us as individuals though to make up our own path in life. In the end we will all see the truth about God and the truth about ourselves. It will be unavoidable.

We humans only live for a short number of years and then we are gone. I think it is wise to search for the truth about God and the truth about our existence more then anything else because it is the only thing that is going to matter in the end.


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## CECIL

I should know better than to do this, but I'm bored so I think I'll stir up some controversy 



LOSTONE said:


> Personally all my ideas and opinions about God and about Jesus and about life and the reality of this world come directly from the bible.


Translation: I'm too afraid to form my own ideas and opinions, so I copy straight from a book.



> 1. The bible prophecies are unlike any of man made prophecies, they give exact dates and names and details of events and also they have all come true.


This is one time where I'd like you to provide a quote from the bible, replete with exact dates, names and details of something that it foretold. Good luck.



> 2. The bible was wrote over a span of 1,500 years by many different writers but all the books of the bible show complete unification and they are actually complementary toward each other. This is something that would be impossible for humans to achieve without the aid of God.


Clearly you've never read a compilation of short stories with similar themes, or a series of novels by the same author set in the same world. Also, what about all the books that were written by different people and NOT put into the bible? (e.g. Gospel of Thomas). Why weren't they put in? Could it be because they told a slightly different story? How is it possible that the disciples of Jesus could tell his story differently? Could it be because each disciple had a different interpretation of the same person? Wait, maybe its not God's word at all but written by humans? hmmmm....



> 4. The bible has proven to be historically accurate on every single account. Many times being prophetically historically accurate as in the case with the city of Tyre, Babylon, Edom and many other places including even the overthrow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.


No, its proven historically accurate on a few of the events and places it talks about. A whole lot of it is not. For example, when does the bible say that the great flood happened? When does the bible talk about Dinosaurs? When does it talk about the ice ages? etc. etc.



> 5. The bible has proven to be scientifically accurate and actually even prophetic in it's scientific knowledge at times. For example Isaiah 40:22 There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth.
> At the time when that was wrote, most people believed that the earth was flat. I think Isaiah was alone in saying that the earth was spherical. So that scripture is both prophetic in a way and also scientifically accurate.


Clutching at straws. Isaiah may have meant a flat circle - the passage doesn't say spherical at all. Or perhaps (GASP!) he was talking metaphorically. Please feel free to list any other supposed prophetic scientific knowledge.



> One of the biggest reasons for myself is because I have seen the power of the bible with my own eyes. I know of a group of people who follow the bible teachings very closely and they have been able to create a very unified society of peace and love that has spread across the entire Earth. It has even spread into the most remote islands of this earth and in my eyes it is just another fulfillment of bible prophecy, Mt 24:14


Oh really? Where is this peaceful society that has spread across the earth  Is it the U.S., who constantly invade other countries in the name of god and country to kill innocent people? Or is it missionaries who waltz into a remote island community and demand they change their (already peaceful) ways to live in fear of a God they've never even heard of?



> It is up to all of us as individuals though to make up our own path in life. In the end we will all see the truth about God and the truth about ourselves. It will be unavoidable.


With this I agree 

Sorry LOSTONE, I usually don't argue against religious Zealouts because its more productive to smash your head against a wall, but I was feeling bored. Honestly, you can believe what you want and I will too - just keep a critical eye on your beliefs.


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## LOSTONE

> Translation: I'm too afraid to form my own ideas and opinions, so I copy straight from a book.


No my belief is that the bible is the word of God and so that is exactly how I treat it. I believe that because I have studied for years, searching for the truth.



> Clearly you've never read a compilation of short stories with similar themes, or a series of novels by the same author set in the same world. Also, what about all the books that were written by different people and NOT put into the bible? (e.g. Gospel of Thomas). Why weren't they put in? Could it be because they told a slightly different story? How is it possible that the disciples of Jesus could tell his story differently? Could it be because each disciple had a different interpretation of the same person? Wait, maybe its not God's word at all but written by humans? hmmmm...


You will find the answers for all your questions if you look for them.
I stopped asking those kinds of questions after about having thousands of my questions like that answered in a way to prove to me that the bible is the word of God and that the Jehovah's Witnesses are God's people. New questions will always pop up. I am still looking into things myself. The point is though is that I am seeking the answers to these questions rather then just using the questions as an excuse to turn my back on God. If you look for answers then you will find the answers that you are looking for. The real question is "what are you looking for", excuses, truth, God or what? You don't need to answer that, its just something to think about.



> No, its proven historically accurate on a few of the events and places it talks about. A whole lot of it is not. For example, when does the bible say that the great flood happened? When does the bible talk about Dinosaurs? When does it talk about the ice ages? etc. etc.


Actually the bible does tell us when the great flood happened. The fact that the bible does not tell us every single detail about history does not prove it wrong. The bible would be insanely large if it told us about everything. The bible only gives us the information that we need. What it does give us has been back up. It has never been proven wrong on even one single account.



> Clutching at straws. Isaiah may have meant a flat circle - the passage doesn't say spherical at all. Or perhaps (GASP!) he was talking metaphorically. Please feel free to list any other supposed prophetic scientific knowledge.


No the actual Hebrew word that he used does in fact mean a spherical shape. That is not clutching at straws. There are other scriptures that talk about the sphere of the earth being hung upon nothing, meaning that it is self suspending. Men of the ancient world would have thought that to be an impossibility but the facts about the earth are well preserved in the bible as well known truth today.



> This is one time where I'd like you to provide a quote from the bible, replete with exact dates, names and details of something that it foretold. Good luck.


I will make up another post for that.



> Oh really? Where is this peaceful society that has spread across the earth  Is it the U.S., who constantly invade other countries in the name of god and country to kill innocent people? Or is it missionaries who waltz into a remote island community and demand they change their (already peaceful) ways to live in fear of a God they've never even heard of?


http://www.watchtower.org/languages.htm
http://www.watchtower.org/e/jt/index.ht ... cle_07.htm

This peaceful society exists in all nations. 
It is already worldwide. 
Jehovah's worldwide organization of people are already peacefully waiting for Jehovah's intervention in the events of this world.



> Sorry LOSTONE, I usually don't argue against religious Zealouts because its more productive to smash your head against a wall, but I was feeling bored. Honestly, you can believe what you want and I will too - just keep a critical eye on your beliefs.


Personally I am not arguing.

I am hoping that maybe you will learn something from me. 
Maybe not, but I believe that the information from the bible is life saving information and for that reason I have the desire to inform everyone I possibly can about the bible.

You are right that there is no point in arguing and that is why I do not argue. I am just telling you what I know.


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## CECIL

> If you look for answers then you will find the answers that you are looking for. The real question is "what are you looking for", excuses, truth, God or what? You don't need to answer that, its just something to think about.


I'm not looking for anything. I've already found my answer, and that is to talk directly to 'God'. Personally. Every day. No need for a middle man or an instruction manual - half the fun is finding out through personal experience.



> No the actual Hebrew word that he used does in fact mean a spherical shape. That is not clutching at straws. There are other scriptures that talk about the sphere of the earth being hung upon nothing, meaning that it is self suspending. Men of the ancient world would have thought that to be an impossibility but the facts about the earth are well preserved in the bible as well known truth today.


I stand corrected. Incidentally, from what I understand a whole lot got lost when the bible was translated from Hebrew (which is a language that talks in metaphor) into english (Which is a literal language).



> This peaceful society exists in all nations.
> It is already worldwide.
> Jehovah's worldwide organization of people are already peacefully waiting for Jehovah's intervention in the events of this world.


Correct me if I am wrong, but is one of the fundamental beliefs of Jehova's Witnesses that there is only 144,000 "places" in heaven? And that only the highest "ranking" within the religion are eligible for those places?



> I believe that the information from the bible is life saving


No-one's life needs saving, we're doing just fine at the moment


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## LOSTONE

Some prophecies

Jesus being born in the line of David. 
Jesus being the one put on Davids throne.

Ps 132:11
Jehovah has sworn to David,
Truly he will not draw back from it:
?Of the fruitage of your belly
I shall set on your throne.

Isaiah 9:7
To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.

Micah 5:2
?And you, O Beth?le?hem Eph?ra?thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.

Dates of the events of Jesus.
The weeks are weeks of years. Using the bible rule of 1 day being equal to one year. This pinpoints the date of Jesus anointment to the position of the Christ. 
Messiah in Hebrew means Christ in Greek. 
This was wrote while the nation of Israel was still captive in Babylon.

Daniel 9:25,27
25 And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times.

Jesus would arrive riding upon an ass.
Zech 9:9
9 ?Be very joyful, O daughter of Zion. Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem. Look! Your king himself comes to you. He is righteous, yes, saved; humble, and riding upon an ass, even upon a full-grown animal the son of a she-ass.

Seed of Abraham blessed.
This being fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Gen 22:15-18
15 And Jehovah?s angel proceeded to call to Abraham the second time out of the heavens 16 and to say: ??By myself I do swear,? is the utterance of Jehovah, ?that by reason of the fact that you have done this thing and you have not withheld your son, your only one, 17 I shall surely bless you and I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand that are on the seashore; and your seed will take possession of the gate of his enemies. 18 And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice.??

Jesus pierced for our sins. Literal fulfillment at Mt 27:49; John 19:34,37; Rev 1:7

Isaiah 53:5
But he was being pierced for our transgression; he was being crushed for our errors. The chastisement meant for our peace was upon him, and because of his wounds there has been a healing for us.

Destruction of Babylon; gates of Babylon to be left open; Medes and Persians to conquer under King Cyrus. Babylon never again to be inhabited.

Isaiah 13:17-22
17 ?Here I am arousing against them the Medes, who account silver itself as nothing and who, as respects gold, take no delight in it. 18 And [their] bows will dash even young men to pieces. And the fruitage of the belly they will not pity; for sons their eye will not feel sorry. 19 And Babylon, the decoration of kingdoms, the beauty of the pride of the Chal?de?ans, must become as when God overthrew Sod?om and Go?mor?rah. 20 She will never be inhabited, nor will she reside for generation after generation. And there the Arab will not pitch his tent, and no shepherds will let [their flocks] lie down there. 21 And there the haunters of waterless regions will certainly lie down, and their houses must be filled with eagle owls. And there the ostriches must reside, and goat-shaped demons themselves will go skipping about there. 22 And jackals must howl in her dwelling towers, and the big snake will be in the palaces of exquisite delight. And the season for her is near to come, and her days themselves will not be postponed.?

Isaiah 45:1-3
1 This is what Jehovah has said to his anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have taken hold of, to subdue before him nations, so that I may ungird even the hips of kings; to open before him the two-leaved doors, so that even the gates will not be shut: 2 ?Before you I myself shall go, and the swells of land I shall straighten out. The copper doors I shall break in pieces, and the iron bars I shall cut down. 3 And I will give you the treasures in the darkness and the hidden treasures in the concealment places, in order that you may know that I am Jehovah, the One calling [you] by your name, the God of Israel.

Jer. 50:35-46
35 ?There is a sword against the Chal?de?ans,? is the utterance of Jehovah, ?and against the inhabitants of Babylon and against her princes and against her wise ones. 36 There is a sword against the empty talkers, and they will certainly act foolishly. There is a sword against her mighty men, and they will actually become terrified. 37 There is a sword against their horses and against their war chariots and against all the mixed company that are in the midst of her, and they will certainly become women. There is a sword against her treasures, and they will actually be plundered. 38 There is a devastation upon her waters, and they must be dried up. For it is a land of graven images, and because of [their] frightful visions they keep acting crazy. 39 Therefore the haunters of waterless regions will dwell with the howling animals, and in her the ostriches must dwell; and she will nevermore be dwelt in, nor will she reside for generation after generation.?

40 ?Just as with God?s overthrow of Sod?om and of Go?mor?rah and of her neighbor [towns],? is the utterance of Jehovah, ?no man will dwell there, nor will the son of mankind reside in her as an alien.

41 ?Look! A people is coming in from the north; and a great nation and grand kings themselves will be roused up from the remotest parts of the earth. 42 Bow and javelin they handle. They are cruel and will show no mercy. The sound of them is like the sea that is boisterous, and upon horses they will ride; set in array as one man for war against you, O daughter of Babylon.

43 ?The king of Babylon has heard the report about them, and his hands have dropped down. There is distress! Severe pains have seized hold of him, just like a woman giving birth.

44 ?Look! Someone will come up just like a lion from the proud [thickets] along the Jordan to the durable abiding place, but in a moment I shall make them run away from her. And the one who is chosen I shall appoint over her. For who is like me, and who will challenge me, and who, now, is the shepherd that can stand before me? 45 Therefore hear, O men, the counsel of Jehovah that he has formulated against Babylon and his thoughts that he has thought out against the land of the Chal?de?ans. Surely the little ones of the flock will be dragged about. Surely on account of them he will cause their abiding place to be desolated. 46 At the sound [when] Babylon has been seized, the earth will certainly be set rocking, and among the nations an outcry itself be heard.?

Jer. 51:37-43
7 And Babylon must become piles of stones, the lair of jackals, an object of astonishment and something to whistle at, without an inhabitant. 38 All together they will roar just like maned young lions. They will certainly growl like the whelps of lions.?

39 ?When they are heated I shall set their banquets and I will make them drunk, in order that they may exult; and they must sleep an indefinitely lasting sleep, from which they will not wake up,? is the utterance of Jehovah. 40 ?I shall bring them down like male sheep to the slaughtering, like rams along with the he-goats.?

41 ?O how She?shach has been captured, and how the Praise of the whole earth gets to be seized! How Babylon has become a mere object of astonishment among the nations! 42 The sea has come up even over Babylon. By the multitude of its waves she has been covered. 43 Her cities have become an object of astonishment, a waterless land and a desert plain. As a land, in them no man will dwell, and through them no son of mankind will pass.

City of Tyre to be destroyed by Chaldeans under Nebuchadnezzar.

Isaiah 23:1,8,13,14
1 The pronouncement of Tyre: Howl, YOU ships of Tar?shish! for it has been despoiled from [being] a port, from [being a place] to enter in. From the land of Kit?tim it has been revealed to them

8 Who is it that has given this counsel against Tyre, the bestower of crowns, whose merchants were princes, whose tradesmen were the honorable ones of the earth?

13 Look! The land of the Chal?de?ans. This is the people?As?syr?i?a did not prove to be [the one]?they founded her for the desert haunters. They have erected their siege towers; they have stripped bare her dwelling towers; one has set her as a crumbling ruin.

14 Howl, YOU ships of Tar?shish, for YOUR stronghold has been despoiled.

Ezekiel 26:4,7-12
And they will certainly bring the walls of Tyre to ruin and tear down her towers, and I will scrape her dust away from her and make her a shining, bare surface of a crag.

7 ?For this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ?Here I am bringing against Tyre Neb?u?chad?rez?zar the king of Babylon from the north, a king of kings, with horses and war chariots and cavalrymen and a congregation, even a multitudinous people. 8 Your dependent towns in the field he will kill even with the sword, and he must make against you a siege wall and throw up against you a siege rampart and raise up against you a large shield; 9 and the strike of his attack engine he will direct against your walls, and your towers he will pull down, with his swords. 10 Owing to the heaving mass of his horses their dust will cover you. Owing to the sound of cavalryman and wheel and war chariot your walls will rock, when he comes in through your gates, as in the cases of entering into a city opened by breaches. 11 With the hoofs of his horses he will trample down all your streets. Your people he will kill even with the sword, and to the earth your own pillars of strength will go down. 12 And they will certainly spoil your resources and plunder your sales goods, and tear down your walls, and your desirable houses they will pull down. And your stones and your woodwork and your dust they will place in the very midst of the water.?

That was actually very amazing detail because the city of Tyre was actually tossed into the midst of the water in order to build a causeway so that the island of Tyre could also be demolished.

There are literally hundreds of other prophecies that I know about.

Many having to do with the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the destruction of Jerusalem and also the pure worship that is taking place now.

I could go on to list hundreds. I don't have the time to list all of them though.

Really if you want to learn more about the bible then you should start a bible study with the Jehovah's Witnesses. They will teach you all you want to know about prophecy. They have many books about it. Books that explain Daniels prophecy and Isiah's prophecy also Revelation's prophecies and other books that cover a broad range of different prophecies. All of this reading material is free of charge from the Watchtower society. All you have to do is ask. Call up the Jehovah's Witnesses and tell them you are interested in knowing more about bible prophecy and they will do all that they can to help you.


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## LOSTONE

> Correct me if I am wrong, but is one of the fundamental beliefs of Jehova's Witnesses that there is only 144,000 "places" in heaven? And that only the highest "ranking" within the religion are eligible for those places?


That is what the bible says.

The bible calls them the little flock.

*Lu 12:32
?Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.
*
There is also another great crowd that the bible speaks about. 
*Re 7:9
9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.*

The bible shows that these groups of people are different.

Humans were created to live on this earth. This is where humans are supposed to be. The position of kingship in heaven is granted only to a very select few.

*Re 14:1-3
1 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.*

There are many other scriptures that talk about the Great crowd and the Little flock. The bible shows us that there will be a very great number of people worshiping Jehovah in the last days and those people will be allowed to live forever on this earth. The Little flock will be given a special position in Heaven and they will have a position above even the angles.

If you want I can give you all the scriptures to explain this to you but right now I am very tired. I just got done with those prophecy scriptures and now I am beat.

Let me know if you want me to explain this further with scripture and I will tomorrow.


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## LOSTONE

> No-one's life needs saving, we're doing just fine at the moment


Thats not true.

All humans are dieing.

That is the payment for our sins.

Jehovah God has provided us with a hope for life though.

We simply have to accept his gift.


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## CECIL

I don't want you to explain it further. I just find it strange that even if you follow your religion's teachings to the letter, you still won't be given a place in heaven. Seems kind of counter productive to me /shrug

And what I said about not needing saving is because I believe we all already have eternal life regardless of what we do here on earth (Yes, even if you are a "sinner"). If that's true then "finding the path of Jehova" simply means realising your own innate divinity and connection to the infinite 

Btw, I have met Jehova's Witnesses before and personally I found the religion to be one of the most restrictive I've come across. No offense but that lifestyle just doesn't sit right with me.

But to each their own.


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## LOSTONE

Humans were not made for Heaven.

We were made for the earth and the earth was made for us.

This is where we belong.

The position in Heaven has been granted to a few people for a reason.

I can understand why you would view the Jehovah's Witnesses as being restrictive.

In this world people basically feel that they should be able to do whatever they please. Even if their choices cause great harm to themselves or others. People like to do bad things and for this reason, the true God is hated by most people.

In reality, Jehovah is not restrictive at all. He is the one allowing us to rebel against him. He is leaving the choice up to us and he is even letting us experiment with our own self rule.

Eventually it will be very clear to everyone why Jehovah's sovereignty should never be questioned. As the bible says at De 32:4, Jehovah is perfect, all his ways are justice. Going against Jehovah is vanity and eventually everyone will realize this fact.

*De 32:4
The Rock, perfect is his activity,
For all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice;
Righteous and upright is he. *

*Psalms 19:7-10
7 The law of Jehovah is perfect, bringing back the soul.
The reminder of Jehovah is trustworthy, making the inexperienced one wise.

8 The orders from Jehovah are upright, causing the heart to rejoice;
The commandment of Jehovah is clean, making the eyes shine.

9 The fear of Jehovah is pure, standing forever.
The judicial decisions of Jehovah are true; they have proved altogether righteous.

10 They are more to be desired than gold, yes, than much refined gold;
And sweeter than honey and the flowing honey of the combs. *

The truth about Jehovah God has not restricted me, it has set me free. 
The feeling of being restricted is a perspective. 
Personally I do not feel restricted at all from Jehovah God. 
I am happy and thankful to know the truth and to know that the truth is perfect.

I know I do not deserve anything from God but he has given to me anyway. Even while I am sinning against him, I find him helping me to correct my own ways so that I may not ruin myself entirely and bring myself to destruction.

My motivation to serve Jehovah God is a motivation of love. 
I am not in dread of Jehovah and I am not in dread of the Jehovah's Witnesses. I Love Jehovah and I love all of his servants. This is not because of restriction but it is because of the undeserved kindness and love that has been shown toward me by God and by God's servants.

Jehovah is not restrictive. 
He is the one who gave us the gift of free will in the first place. 
It is up to us to decide for ourselves if we want to obey Jehovah or not. 
He does not force us to obey him, even though it is in his power to do so.


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## CECIL

LOSTONE said:


> In reality, Jehovah is not restrictive at all. He is the one allowing us to rebel against him. He is leaving the choice up to us and he is even letting us experiment with our own self rule.
> 
> Jehovah is not restrictive.
> He is the one who gave us the gift of free will in the first place.
> It is up to us to decide for ourselves if we want to obey Jehovah or not.
> He does not force us to obey him, even though it is in his power to do so.


With this I partially agree, but for different reasons. I feel that "god" has given humans free will for a reason. "God" has "created" humans (or more accurately, we have created ourselves) as the first race to be able to experience ourselves as seperate in this universe.

In other words, we are the first to be able to voluntarily sever our connection to the universe. Because if you are intimately aware that we are all connected, then what you do to someone else, you do to yourself. If that's the case, then we could not experiment with our "dark side". But we've been given the opportunity to do so.

True freedom is being able to, at a moment's notice, slaughter in cold blood your entire family and everyone they know. Under one provision: That you are willing to accept the responsibility for it and any consequences that come from it. Its not a matter of being "evil" if you do this, because the universe/"god" doesn't work in duality, only humans do. Every action is neutral in the universe, Humans are the ones that assign value judgements.

Now, that's not to say I think everyone should go on a killing spree, but I am saying that if you are truely free then you won't punish yourself for having "negative" emotions and negative thoughts. The energy you hold is what Jung called Libido. You can do whatever you want with that energy and everything is a valid creation of your own. The only thing that matters is what you do with that energy - create or destroy. Both are valid options, both furthers your evolution but in different ways.

Here's where I kind of agree with you: If "god" gave us free will, then there must be a reason. The reason is that through our experimentation with creation as seperate entities, we eventually remember our connection to the all. Then we see ourselves as simultaneously seperate entities as well as connected to everything. Then we retain our free will to do whatever we please as well as an empathic connection which makes us unlikely to harm other people or ourselves.

There's one thing in the bible I agree with, which is that "God" is creating us in "His" own image. That is a very powerful metaphor. Through our evolution we are learning to be, literally, Gods.

But we don't need to bow and scrape to serve "god". God is simultaneously creating us and creating "himself" at the same time, through our subjective experience. In a very real sense, we are equals.



> Eventually it will be very clear to everyone why Jehovah's sovereignty should never be questioned. As the bible says at De 32:4, Jehovah is perfect, all his ways are justice. Going against Jehovah is vanity and eventually everyone will realize this fact.


If "God" didn't want to be questioned then "he" wouldn't have allowed us to. In a way, "god" is a trickster. "He" sent humans down this path of self discovery so that we could become Gods ourselves (Eat from the tree of knowledge).

So yeah, I agree with some of what you are saying, but in a different way


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## LOSTONE

> True freedom is being able to, at a moment's notice, slaughter in cold blood your entire family and everyone they know.


Yes that is true.

That is actually the freedom that we have been given.

Sadly many people do choose to go murder and kill their fellow human brothers and sisters.

War has been with us since the beginning and it keeps just getting worse and worse. God has very seldom had any intervention into our actions here.

God did not give us freedom so that we could carry on in destroying ourselves though. He gave us freedom so that we could freely choose to serve him out of love. The freedom we have is the same freedom that Jesus Christ has. Jesus however is using his freedom to show his love toward Jehovah God.

You spoke about the tree of the knowledge of good and bad. It is good to remember that God had warned Adam and Eve that if they ate from that tree then they would die. This is not something pleasing to God. God did not create us simply so that we could destroy ourselves. This is why we are suffering now.

God has allowed a rebellion to take place for a reason. It is not so that we could become God's ourselves. We are learning the knowledge of good and bad but this is not exactly a good thing for us. Before we only had a knowledge of what was good. Now we also know about the bad. Personally I would rather not know about the bad because the bad is not something desirable for me.

Once Adam and Eve ate from that tree then everything had been changed. God's relationship with the entire human race changed. We are now learning the bad results from going against God.

What God wants for us is for us to be able to enjoy everlasting life on a paradise earth. This is why he created us in the first place. Because of our revolt and our sin, our lives are now depending upon Jesus death.

*Ro 6:23
For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.*

So God has given us the freedom to go against him but what has this resulted in? It has resulted in a great deal of pain and torment for all of us. It has also resulted in the death of Jehovah's dear son Jesus Christ. This is our knowledge of the bad. You may think that murder is not such a bad thing but I am sure that when you are personally experiencing a horrible event such as the murder of a loved family member then it will be very clear to you why murder is wrong. Or for example Fornication. If you were raised without a father because of the fornication of your mother and father then you probably have felt the pain from the bad actions of your parents.

God's law is perfect. It is for our protection. He made us and he knows what is best for us. He has given us the ability to go against him but it is still stupidity and vanity to actually go against God. Eventually God will not allow rebellion. We will always have free will but after the issues of this world have been settled then God will never again allow these same issues to be brought up again. Everyone will already know the bad results that rebellion produces. Anyone in the future who rebells against God will be quickly destroyed.

For now God is only allowing this rebellion to take place because he letting us try to prove a point. Satan has challenged God and God is allowing Satan to prove his point. God is allowing this because he knows Satan's challenge will fail. When Satan's challenge does fail completely as it has been failing, then it will be very clear to everyone that Jehovah not only has the power to rule the universe but he also has the right. Jehovah could force us right now to serve him but that is not his desire. He will not take away our free will. He knows that a great number of humans will be serving him freely, he does not need to force us. However, anyone who continues to go against God will eventually be dealt with and judged by God.

Remember the bible says that the wages sin pays is death.
That payment will be paid by all of us. 
Some of us may have our payment paid by Jesus Christ. 
The rest of us will have to pay that payment with our own lives because of our continued rebellion against God.

Our free will is a wonderful gift. 
The bible says that God made us in his image because of our free will. 
Our free will is what gives us the ability to display the quality of love.
The problem with this earth now is that most people are using their free will to go against God. This I believe is very unwise and counterproductive.

I personally do not let myself create my own religion for myself anymore. I do not let myself simply reason things out for myself. I pray to God for guidance and I study the bible on a daily bases so that I can better understand how I should be living my life. This is a free choice that I am making for myself simply because I want to do what is right. I am fully aware that I was created and I want to be doing things that is pleasing to my creator.

Since God does not force people to serve him, there is no reason for me to have any desire to force anyone to follow God either. The people who are trying to get people to serve God out of force do not even know who God is.

My only desire is that maybe I will be able to help someone understand who God is so that maybe they will turn back to God on their own.

Aggression is not a tactic of God's people. 
God's people are aggressive in the preaching work but they are not aggressive towards any person. They simply do their best to get out and spread the truth about God's Kingdom because they know that it is a life saving information that comes from the bible.

The motivation is based upon love. Love for Jehovah God and love toward our fellow human brothers and sisters here on this earth.

If people do not want to know what the bible says and people do not want to hear about God's Kingdom then those people are left in peace.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that only Jehovah God has the right to judge anyone including Satan the Devil. So the only focus that Jehovah's servants have is to provide the accurate information to people in order to save lives.

We can all believe whatever we want.

I would suggest to everyone to keep searching for the truth though, it is a matter of life and death.


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## Guest

LOSTONE, let me ask you a question. Do you think you would have the same beliefs if you were born in China, or Iraq?
We believe what we are brought up to believe. We could have any number of beliefs, depending on where we were born and raised don't you think?
What does this tell us?


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## LOSTONE

I was not born in China.

The bible does talk about this issue though.

God judges righteously. He does not compare us to each other and he is able to take all things into account when judging us.

He knows the circumstances of a man in China or N. Korea just as well as he knows my circumstances.

The bible does not say that you must know the truth about God in order for God to show you mercy.

That is not the point of the bible.

The point of the bible is so that sinners would be able to know the truth so that they could change their lifestyle and repent and turn back to God.

There are many different beliefs and religions but their is only one truth. There is one truth and there are many lies. It is that simple.

According to the bible, it is God's desire to give a warning to the entire earth, to all nations and islands of the sea before any judgment is brought upon this earth.

This is why Jehovah's Witnesses are preaching around the world right now. In the remotest parts of the earth they are preaching the good news of God's Kingdom. The remotest islands are hearing about Jehovah God and Jehovah's Kingdom and also yes even China!

Just so you know, I was not raised a Jehovah's Witness. I was not even raised a Christian. I was not even raised to believe in God. I found Jehovah God on my own. I did this by praying to God and begging him for an entire night to let me know if he does exists and if he does then I was asking him to let me know who his people are so that I could be able to serve him the way he wants me to.

In that very night, my prayer was answered enough so that I knew God does exists and that he did hear me. Not long after that I started studying with the Jehovah's Witnesses, those being the only people on earth who would be willing to personally study the bible with me at my own home.

So my own beliefs have changed. 
This is possible for people in America, China, Japan, Iraq, South Africa or anywhere else.

Some people may not ever have the ability to learn the truth about the bible. God is aware of these things though. He judges everyone with righteousness.

It would be very presumptuous for us to think that we know better then God. All I know is what God has given to me and I am doing the best that I can with that. That is all God expects from any of us. He does not require more from us then what we are able to give. He does not expect perfection from any of us because he knows we are imperfect. He does not expect someone who does not know the truth to be able to live up to the truth.

This is why the bible says that we should not be judging each other.
I do not judge people that live in China. All I can do is try to teach those people what I know about the bible. I leave all the judgments for God.

I will not quit speaking the truth though. Even if it is upsetting to some people. I know what the truth is and I am not going to keep it to myself. That would be like keeping a life boat all for yourself while you watch other people drown in the ocean, people you could be saving.

The knowledge of the bible is not something to be afraid of or to be angry about. It is simply an offer of God's love. You can accept it or turn away from it. That choice is up to you. The offer is pretty amazing though if you think about it. It is an offer of everlasting life on a paradise earth. I think it is a good offer to consider.



> Do you think you would have the same beliefs if you were born in China, or Iraq?


That is really hard to answer because I would not be me if I would have been born over there. If I were me though then I would have to say yes my beliefs would be exactly the same.

I believe that the bible is the word of God and I believe that the Jehovah's Witnesses are God's people for a reason. It is not because I have been brainwashed. It is because I have found a true peace, love and unity amongst the Jehovah's Witnesses that no other organization or group of people anywhere are able to display. I look at this world and I see a great hypocrisy, it exists in every religion I have looked at and it also exists in politics. People preach peace and display evil and hatred with their actions.

The bible preaches peace and love and the Jehovah's Witnesses display this with their actions.

So if there is some area on this earth that is still not being preached to about God's Kingdom then I pray that soon those areas will be hearing the good news just the same as everywhere else.

As far as I know, the entire earth has already been preached to by the Jehovah's Witnesses though.

Information is even available online for Chinese speaking people.

Chinese, Simplified
http://watchtower.org/chs/index.html

Chinese, Traditional
http://watchtower.org/ch/index.html

And here are 310 other languages that are available online.
http://watchtower.org/languages.htm

All information coming from Jehovah God is now made available to everyone on planet earth.

A Witness for Jehovah God will be given to the entire earth before Judgment day so do not worry about that.

*Mt 24:14
And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.*

If you want to help the Chinese then first you would have to help yourself. If you ever decide to start up a bible study yourself then you can do so here.

https://watch002.securesites.net/contact/submit.htm

I am sure you will find that the people who are sent to study with you will be very happy to be able to teach you about the bible.


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## Guest

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## Guest

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## Guest

Deleted...whatevert!!!!!!!!!!!


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## CECIL

Amen spirit 

I think this concept of duality is especially important for people with DP, because we tend to see things in very black and white, either or ways. Good vs Bad, Black vs White etc don't really exist, they are just creations of the mind.


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## LOSTONE

Spirit I understand what you are saying but personally I believe that the only truth is what is found in the bible and I believe that the Jehovah's Witnesses are God's people.

I can see proof for myself in the actions of the Jehovah's Witnesses of what things the bible says.

For me it is very clear. God tells us what to do and not the other way around. 
In the same way that a parent tells a child what to do rather then a child telling a parent what to do.

We don't need to figure out who God is for ourselves because he has already told us everything we need to know. That is what I believe. I believe that God is the one revealing himself to us, we are not the ones finding him out but he is the one revealing himself to us. This is why I look to the bible and study the bible and religions for answers, rather then just thinking about things on myself. I beg God all the time to guide me into the right direction and he keeps leading me to the same place, the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I am happy that you guys are spiritual even though your beliefs are different from mine.

I will be praying for you guys, unless that offends you somehow.


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## Guest

Deleted...whatever!!!!!!!


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## Guest

LOSTONE... you just seem to be quotes from a book... and not yourself.


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## Pablo

Emulated Puppet}eer said:


> LOSTONE... you just seem to be quotes from a book... and not yourself.


"Nail on head"


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## LOSTONE

> LOSTONE... you just seem to be quotes from a book... and not yourself.


I am myself.

I found the truth about God on my own.

Why should I be so presumptuous so as to twist God's words and make them into my own?

Now that I know the truth.
I will speak only the truth about God and nothing else.

I do not lie about God. Or make up my own ideas about God.
God is able to speak for himself. 
*And he has already spoken. *
God's command is to spread the truth that he has already given to us. 
It is a sin to make up and spread lies. So I don't do that. 
I only say what I know to be the truth about God and nothing else.

Spirit I think you are fooling yourself by telling yourself that you do not need prayer. Maybe some people need prayers more then you do. Maybe I myself even need a prayer more then you but I don't think there is any human on earth who is perfect.

According to the bible even the perfect man Jesus was praying all the time when he was here on earth. So I think the rest of us all need many prayers, no matter who we are.

Don't worry though, I will pray for the children. 
And I will continue to pray for God's Kingdom to come so that their may be an end to this nightmare version of Earth.


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## Rozanne

What is the truth and how do you know it is truthful. I suppose I've been inspired by Nietsche on that. I am very weary of calling anything the truth but somethings feel good. Certainty feels good but is it the truth


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## Pablo

"The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

As soon as you are certain about anything then all thinking and intelligence stops. I found that when I was younger I was sure about a lot of things then the more I found out and learned about life the more uncertain I became because the more you learn the more questions are opened up. I have learned that the only certainty in life is change which is why Buddhists say you need a warriors attitude to facing up to life because if you want to face up to reality you have to fully embrace uncertainty and insecurity without illusions like concrete opinions about anything.


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## Guest

LOSTONE said:


> I am myself.


If your belief is solid, you?re a carbon copy? but then we could debate what ?yourself/myself? actually is.



LOSTONE said:


> Why should I be so presumptuous so as to twist God's words and make them into my own?


Whether you twist the ?lords? words or not is irrelevant? the point is you believe not in yourself but what has been written in a book stated to be ?god?s? words. That?s fine.



LOSTONE said:


> Now that I know the truth.
> I will speak only the truth about God and nothing else.


What you have is not the ?truth?? you have a faith in what you ?believe? to be the truth; which once again is fine.



LOSTONE said:


> I do not lie about God. Or make up my own ideas about God.
> God is able to speak for himself.
> And he has already spoken.
> God's command is to spread the truth that he has already given to us.
> It is a sin to make up and spread lies. So I don't do that.
> I only say what I know to be the truth about God and nothing else.


Lie or state the ?truth? about god? all in all the so called facts can not be confirmed any how? allow your faith to believe what ever it wishes too? ?Each to their own?.

No he has not spoken any words because in order for him to have spoken such words? would have needed him to have first existed.

?God?s command?? You follow what has not been confirmed? I wish I had the ability to have such faith in a subject? it might give me meaning to live.

So with the bible being unconfirmed, it?s some what a sin in it?s self?

What you know is what you read from a book.

Its fine? it gives you something I seek? although my faith is strong within it?s self? I will not be fooled? although to many people I am already one. Judge all they like? I will see the truth with either the eyes I have at the moment? or my spirit eyes.

Darren.


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## LOSTONE

> What is the truth and how do you know it is truthful.


The truth is simply what has actually happened and what is actually taking place.

For example if you are speeding on the highway and you get pulled over and tell the cop that you were not speeding then that is a lie. The truth is what actually happened.

The way you know what is truthful is by learning about the facts. 
Some subjects are very simple. Some are more complicated.

The facts are always there though, you just have to look.



> I am very weary of calling anything the truth


That is actually a good thing.

You should not accept any teaching about God unless you look into matters for yourself and prove to yourself that what you are being told is the truth and not a lie.

Learning takes time. I have been studying the bible and religion and even opposing views for 10 years and I am not even baptized yet. Some people move quicker and some slower but what really matters is that you prove to yourself that what you believe is the truth and not just opinions of different men.

Jehovah's Witnesses are all expected to know all the basic teachings of the bible before they get baptized. You can not dedicate yourself to God if you do not know who he really is or what he really wants from us.



> "The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."


That is true to some extent but those intelligent people who are full of doubt must eventually ride themselves of that doubt or their intelligence means nothing. They are less then those who have no intelligence because they have not used their doubt as a motivation to learn!
If you are doubtful then that should be a motivational factor for you to learn more and not to just be apathetic and do nothing.

Wise men and women are doubtful at first but they are wise enough to use that doubt for something positive and they spend their time searching out to find the truth. Then eventually when they find the truth and they have proven the truth to themselves, then their doubt should be gone. IF their doubt continues past the point of proof then they are not wise but rather they are stupid for not paying attention to their own knowledge.

Knowledge and wisdom are two different things. There are many people in this world who have a great deal of knowledge but who are also very unwise and stupid about how they use their knowledge.



> As soon as you are certain about anything then all thinking and intelligence stops.


That is not true at all. 
If you were doubtful about everything even after knowing the truth then you would be a worthless human being. 
If you continue to doubt that 1+1=2 after having that proven to you then you are never going to be able to be any good with math.

It is the same with everything. 
If you are still doubtful after knowing the truth about something then you are worthless and good for nothing.



> What you have is not the ?truth?? you have a faith in what you ?believe? to be the truth; which once again is fine.


I do know the truth about God and it has been confirmed to me over and over and over again. I have proven the truth to myself many times. I have searched into everything for myself and proven the facts to myself.

I would be a fool to continue doubting Jehovah God after knowing the truth about him and about his Kingdom.



> ?God?s command?? You follow what has not been confirmed


As I said, it has been confirmed.



> So with the bible being unconfirmed, it?s some what a sin in it?s self?


The bible has been confirmed and it continues to be confirmed by the actions of the Jehovah's Witnesses. There is more then enough proof that backs up the bible. And the proof continues to build each day. Eventually not long from now, nobody will be doubting the truth. Lies will be done away will and so will all doubt. There will only be truth.


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## Guest

If it was the "truth" we'd all be expected to follow it.



> Eventually not long from now, nobody will be doubting the truth


Seems you place your ego apon this book/your so called truth.

Can you turn me? Or am I too far gone Lostone?


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## LOSTONE

> If it was the "truth" we'd all be expected to follow it.


We are.

God does not negotiate with humans.

He does listen to our prayers and take our feelings and thoughts into consideration. He has even spared a whole city "Zoar" from destruction just because Lot was afraid to go into exile into the mountains when Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, Lot prayed to God and God listened to Lot and spared Zoar from destruction.

God is very humble and willing to listen, he does not negotiate though. 
When he says for us to abstain from blood, then that means we should abstain from blood. When he says that we should not be fornicating, then we should not be fornicating.

God does expect us to listen to him and obey his commands, although he is aware of our imperfection and our history. He knows we will all make mistakes. And he is willing to forgive all of us if we would just turn back toward him and repent from our sins against him.

He has provided payment for our sins himself. All we need to do is accept that payment and follow the teachings of Jesus. If God sees that we are striving to do what is right then he may have mercy on us and apply Jesus sacrifice toward our sins.

It is up to Jehovah to decide who will be judged with the mercy of Jesus blood, and also who will be judged without the mercy of Jesus blood meaning their everlasting destruction.



> Seems you place your ego apon this book/your so called truth.


If I have any ego left at all then it is very small indeed.
I am a very humble man. Humility is my main quality I think. 
The bible is not my book. It is Jehovah's book. If anyone places their pride upon the bible then it would be Jehovah God, because he is the author of the bible. Many men wrote down their own personal feelings and thoughts into the bible but all the those writings were inspired by God. The scriptures can be crossed referenced to prove this.



> Can you turn me? Or am I too far gone Lostone?


I can not turn you. If I were to turn you or force you to believe the same as myself then that would be more like manipulation. I do not desire to manipulate anyone because I know that is not the desire of my God Jehovah. He only wants for people to be informed about the good news of his kingdom. It is up to you to make up your own mind about what you want to do with your life. According to the bible, anyone that is alive should be able to make the choice to turn back to God and keep living.

The Israelites once felt that they were doomed because of the massive amount of sin that was upon their heads. They were telling themselves these exact words "our revolts and our sins are upon us and in them we are rotting away, how, then, shall we keep living?" It makes sense why they felt that way because their sins were very great. Notice what God said to those people though. These words apply toward everyone on earth now!

*Ezekiel 33:10,11
10 ?Now as regards you, O son of man, say to the house of Israel, ?Thus YOU people have said: ?Because our revolts and our sins are upon us and in them we are rotting away, how, then, shall we keep living??? 11 Say to them, ??As I am alive,? is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ?I take delight, not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living. Turn back, turn back from YOUR bad ways, for why is it that YOU should die, O house of Israel??? *

So Emulated Puppet}eer the question that you asked me can only be answered by you yourself.

It is up to you what you want to do. 
If you want to learn more about who Jehovah is and what his Kingdom is going to accomplish here on this earth then that is your choice. It would also be your choice for you to someday dedicate yourself to Jehovah God.

Or you could choose to just forget all about the bible and about Jehovah or even about any religion. You are totally free to do whatever you want to do.

For now, we are not living under the Kingdom of God. We are not being ruled by God. So if you do not want to serve God or live in his Kingdom then that is your choice. Eventually God's Kingdom will remove all human governments though and there will only be Jehovah's Kingdom. So anyone who does not want to be a part of God's Kingdom will no longer be around to take part in anything good or anything bad.

Emulated Puppet}eer
God does not expect you to just jump out of your chair and display complete loyalty toward him tonight. He knows your situation, he knows everything about you. All he wants you to do is to take the steeps to save yourself. The first steep being simply taking some time to study the bible. Maybe taking some time out to humbly pray to God and ask him to guide you in the right direction.

It is up to you though. 
Whatever you want, that is what you should search for.

I personally want peace and I only see this being a reality in God's Kingdom. This is why I desire to tell other people about this Kingdom because it is the only hope that I can find on this earth. Jehovah's Kingdom is the only lasting good that I have found and it is truly perfect.

The news about the perfect Kingdom of Jehovah God is not something you should just throw away quickly because you are skeptical. An offer as wonderful as everlasting life on a paradise earth should be investigated. I think it would be wise for everyone to search things out extensively because their is a great deal to gain from knowing the truth about God. And there is nothing to lose.

Please at least search things out for yourselves. If you are skeptical about the bible then search and study it. That is the only way you can know for sure if the bible is a book of lies or if it is inspired by God.

The bible is a book that has been translated into over 2,000 languages. There is no other book on earth that even comes close to being printed in as many languages or having as many copies as the bible. I think that makes the book a qualify for a good read simply because of that.

But if there is any one part of the bible I would suggest reading then it would be Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. At lest after reading these books, you may have a better idea of why Jehovah's Witnesses call their preaching work the "Good News". Jehovah's Witnesses preach that Jesus is the King of God's Kingdom and if you read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John then you will get a very good idea of who Jesus is. Also you will get a better understanding about who Jehovah God is since Jesus came to us in the image of his father Jehovah God.

If you want to read the bible then you can do that here.
http://watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm

And here is a list of 310 different languages if you do not read English well. http://www.watchtower.org/languages.htm


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## CECIL

I've said it before and I'll say it again: You can talk to God/The universe directly and in person each and every day of the week. AND YOU CAN GET A RESPONSE. No need for the middle man. No need to read an instruction manual. Just talk directly to god.

All you need to do is know the language 

As for intelligence and doubt. I can definately see where you are coming from, because supposedly by "finding God" you don't need to question your beliefs anymore. You have found the one truth, the only truth and nothing but the truth.

But when an ideology turns you AWAY from critical thinking and doubt, you've just gotta be skeptical (LOL). Doubt is a healthy thing. You are right - if you have doubt then it drives you to learn, to test your ideas. If you ever stop doubting then you stop learning and growing. You become stagnant.

Did you know that believing you are stupid is a good thing? Many of the visionaries throughout time have believed they were stupid (e.g. Einstein). The doubt is what made them push forward and create.

But pretty much what you are saying is: "All you need to know is the bible and nothing else. If you know that then nothing else matters". Its too shallow for me :roll: Sure, humans can't understand everything in the universe, its simply way too large. But its the wonder, the mystery that drives us on. The joy in discovering, learning and growing. If you just put a road block in the way and say "Everything past here is only for God to know, go home now people", then you just stifle that drive.

And furthermore, if God was to tell you not to push on further, you just know he's pulling your leg. Just like with the forbidden fruit in the garden of eden - The apple = knowledge and God wanted us to eat. There was no original sin, it was all a prank so that we could learn about the universe


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## LOSTONE

Cecil I think that you have mistaken me a little and also my religion.



> But pretty much what you are saying is: "All you need to know is the bible and nothing else. If you know that then nothing else matters".


I never said that and neither does the bible or my religion.

In fact I will show you a scripture that contradicts that and shows why simply knowing what the bible says is not enough.

*James 2:19
You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.*

Obviously Satan and the Demons know the truth. They were perfect servants of God at one point in time. Satan was even called "beautiful" once, probably being an angel of some authority.

I am sure Satan and the Demons know the bible word for word. This does not change their position though, they are still enemies of God.

Also I think it is good to be very careful about where you put your beliefs. I do not think it is wise for people to just blindly follow any teaching. 
But doubts should not make you apathetic toward God. It should motivate you to search for the truth with all your heart. It should motivate you to search more and more since it is obvious there are more lies in this world then their is honesty and truth.

The bible also ask only that you search for God.
It does not ask for you to follow any teaching blindly.

*Pr 2:3-6
3 if, moreover, you call out for understanding itself and you give forth your voice for discernment itself, 4 if you keep seeking for it as for silver, and as for hid treasures you keep searching for it, 5 in that case you will understand the fear of Jehovah, and you will find the very knowledge of God. 6 For Jehovah himself gives wisdom; out of his mouth there are knowledge and discernment. *

*Isaiah 55:6-9
6 Search for Jehovah, YOU people, while he may be found. Call to him while he proves to be near. 7 Let the wicked man leave his way, and the harmful man his thoughts; and let him return to Jehovah, who will have mercy upon him, and to our God, for he will forgive in a large way.

8 ?For the thoughts of YOU people are not my thoughts, nor are my ways YOUR ways,? is the utterance of Jehovah. 9 ?For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than YOUR ways, and my thoughts than YOUR thoughts.*

The bible itself basically says for us to be skeptical about things.
*1 John 4:1
Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world. *

*Mt 7:15,16
15 ?Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep?s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them.*

*Mt 24:11
And many false prophets will arise and mislead many;*

*2 Pe 2:1-3
1 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. 2 Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. 3 Also, with covetousness they will exploit YOU with counterfeit words. But as for them, the judgment from of old is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering. *

The bibles advise is to stay awake and keep your senses. To pray for understanding and knowledge and truth. To search for truth as if you were searching for treasure.

Doubts should be a motivation to learn. Doubts about God should motivate you to start a bible study. How are those doubts going to be dealt with by turning your back on God? Or by ignoring the bible?

IT is not good to continue doubting because that means that you have not used your doubts as a motivation to search for answers. If you did search for answers and found them, then you would no longer have any reason for doubting. Doubts are good at first but if they continue and you remain apathetic because of those doubts then those doubts will prove to be very destructive.

Doubts are only good if they are put to use. If you use those doubts to expand your knowledge and thus eliminate those doubts in a positive way with knowledge and wisdom and understanding. Letting doubts create an apathetic mindset is not wise, and it does not show any proof of intelligence.

If you are searching for God but you doubt him then you need to search harder.

If you are searching to disprove God and you doubt God then what difference does anything make to you anyway? The truth could hit you right in your forehead and it would only make you angry and miserable.

Doubts are not a good thing in themselves. They need to be used in the right way to be of any benefit to you.


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## CECIL

LOSTONE said:


> The bible itself basically says for us to be skeptical about things.


Does it tell you to be skeptical of the bible? I would wager not. "Question everything...except for me, because I am perfect". Sure...

The point of doubt is that you can never be sure. Even if something feels absolutely right to you, you can still have doubt and that's healthy. Strength and courage come from doing what you believe even if you doubt it.

Doubt also means that our positions can be changed. If you no longer have any doubt then you are no longer open to change. No idea or belief should go unchallenged.


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## LOSTONE

Well Paul did actually commend people for looking into the things he was teaching them and for searching things out to know for sure if what they were being told was in fact the truth.

The bible does not go against itself. It would be pretty contradicting to say that the bible is inspired by God but then for that same book to say that you should be skeptical of the bible. That would be absurd.

The bible teaches that searching for knowledge is a good thing. Therefore it is wise to search out the facts of the bible. This is because if you do question the bible but then search for the answers to those questions, then you will see that the bible is indeed inspired by God.

Questions should be followed by answers though. If you are not searching for answers then what good does it do you to be skeptical about anything?

There are places in the bible where people are even asking God questions. They are showing what may seem to be doubts but rather then turning away from God, these people turn towards God for answers. That is what makes the difference.

*For example Habakkuk 1:2-4 
2 How long, O Jehovah, must I cry for help, and you do not hear? [How long] shall I call to you for aid from violence, and you do not save? 3 Why is it that you make me see what is hurtful, and you keep looking upon mere trouble? And [why] are despoiling and violence in front of me, and [why] does quarreling occur, and [why] is strife carried?

4 Therefore law grows numb, and justice never goes forth. Because the wicked one is surrounding the righteous one, for that reason justice goes forth crooked.

*

God did not punish Habakkuk for asking those questions but rather he answered those questions and also had the questions and answers wrote down in the bible for all to see.

God is humble enough to deal with doubtful humans. 
We should not continue to be doubtful after knowing the facts though.

For example. If you were with Mosses when God split the red sea, would you later doubt God's power? Some actually did. After seeing God's display of power many times, many of the Hebrews were still doubting God and complaining toward God. God was humble and dealt with these doubtful humans and he continued to provide for them. Later though many of those same Hebrews actually turned on God and made up false Gods for themselves so that they could go back into Egypt as slaves!

Those people took doubting way to far!

Once the truth has been shown to you then there should be no more doubts. It is simple stupidity to continue doubting what has already been proven to you.



> The point of doubt is that you can never be sure.


You can be sure, you only choose not to be.



> Even if something feels absolutely right to you, you can still have doubt and that's healthy.


It is not healthy if your doubts go against your own knowledge. Or if your doubts prevent you from searching out answers for your questions.



> Strength and courage come from doing what you believe even if you doubt it.


I disagree. 
Confusion creates fear and fear leads to cowardice.
Knowing the truth and being fully assured of that truth is what gives you strength and courage.

Nobody can have courage when following a leader who they have doubts about.

If you are going into battle and your general is a man whom you have many doubts about then you likely will find yourself feeling like a bit of a coward.

If you have a general or King whom you have unshakable faith in then you will be able to have strength and courage.



> Doubt also means that our positions can be changed. If you no longer have any doubt then you are no longer open to change.


If you know what the truth is then why should you change?

If you know that 1+1=2 then why should you doubt that maybe 1+1 actually may = 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 1,000?

If you doubted that way about everything then you would be unable to do anything. You would not even be able to live. Imagen doubting the point in eating? Imagen doubting sleep? Imagen doubting the need to use the bathroom?

When you have to ease nature do you doubt it?
Do you doubt your hunger?
Do you doubt your thirst?
Obviously not or you would not be alive.

Doubting God is like doubting your thirst.
Eventually you will become dehydrated and die, even though you may never realize your need for a drink of water, the lack of water will still kill you.



> No idea or belief should go unchallenged.


Then why not challenge your need for water?
Stop drinking any form of liquid and I assure you that you will die very quickly.

Yes it is wise to question what sort of liquid you drink, and to pay close attention to the color of water. If the water is black then it would be wise to not drink it. But just because some water is black does not mean that it is wise to quit drinking all liquids.

Yes you should search things out for yourself. You should make sure that the water you are drinking is pure. The same goes with religion. You should be sure that it is pure. You should be sure that you are being told the truth about things and you should make sure that your religions and/or your beliefs are not tainted.

There comes a point where you need to just drink the water though. IF you do not drink then you will surly die.

The same goes with God. If you do not search for him and drink down the truth about him as if it were a water of life then eventually you will die.

Yes their are many tainted wells of water in this world just as there are many tainted religions.

There also are wells of pure water in this world just as there is pure religion.

You may want to think about this.

How vital is Water to your health?
How wise would it be to doubt the fact that water is vital to your survival?
I assure you that paying attention to your creator is more vital to your survival then water is.

If all you can find is tainted water then that is all the more reason you need to search for clean water. 
Same goes with religion.

If all you find is just more to doubt about then you should search even harder for pure water. Pure truth.

You can keep doubting all that you want but reality will not change for your doubts. Reality is what it is. If you doubt something that is vital for life then you will end up dead. It's that simple.

Again, I am not saying that you should just follow the first teaching or religion that crosses your path but you should search for the most pure and clean religion you can find. You should pray to God and ask him to guide you. You should search for God as if your life depended on it because your life does depend upon it.

I can not say for sure who will be spared from this world but I know that your chances improve greatly if you are obeying Jehovah God.

Don't doubt God's power. 
His power is visible and it is all around you. It is visible in the things he has created.

Men may lie about things all the time but you should not doubt the creator of the universe.

I know from experience. I have doubted God before. It leads to nowhere. Doubting your own creator is worse then doubting your need to drink water.


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## AllmindnoBrain

"The apple = knowledge and God wanted us to eat. There was no original sin, it was all a prank so that we could learn about the universe "-Cecil

I like that.


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## LOSTONE

Jehovah God is not evil.

He does not play pranks on his creations.

God did not create the entire universe and give us free will just so he could play pranks on us.


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## CECIL

Even God has a sense of humour - just look at the Platypus


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## LOSTONE

> Even God has a sense of humour - just look at the Platypus Razz


Yes well I would have to agree that God probably does have a sense of humor because we have a sense of humor.

Although the bible makes it clear that God does not try us with evil things.

It also points out that God's thoughts are higher then our thoughts and that God has no need to lie to his creations.

You can have a good sense of humor and be good at the same time.

You don't have to play pranks on people in order to have a sense of humor. 
The people that have to hurt others or play pranks on others in order to enjoy themselves are very sick.

It does not seem logical that God would spend so much time creating the entire universe and then create all the lifeforms on earth just so he could play pranks on humans and torment people.

God created us so we could enjoy life. 
If we would listen to God and obey him then we would all be able to enjoy life the way we were meant to enjoy life.

The problem is that people have turned their back on God and this entire world is rebelling against it's own creator. Since this world is rebelling against God, it does not make much sense to turn back to God and blame him for the bad effects of our own actions.

There is a saying that says "you can't have your cake and eat it to"
This world is rebelling against God, so how is it that this world is also blaming God for our problems?

God warned us, we sinned against him anyway. Now we are suffering the consequences. We can not blame God for this. Well we can but it is very stupid to do so.

Jehovah God is your creator. 
It is simple wisdom to pay attention to him. 
If he wanted to then he could force you to obey him.

He leaves the choice up to you though. He will never force you to do anything. If you do not like God's offer then you do not have to accept it.

Don't forget this though.

Jehovah God actually cares so much for you that he sent his only begotten son to his death, just in order to save your life. 
Jehovah has already paid for your sins. 
He paid for our sins while we were all still sinning against him.

He made that payment by sending his only begotten son Jesus Christ to his tormenting death so that our sins would be covered over.

If God is willing to go through such great lengths to save us while we are sinning against him then don't you think that it is wise to at least spend some of your time to learn more about who Jehovah God is?

Maybe you have doubts. Maybe not. 
I don't know. 
If you are unsure of your own beliefs then I beg you to take a closer look at the bible because I know that Jehovah is in fact God almighty. His power has been proven to me over and over again and it will be proven to anyone who is honestly searching for him.


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## CECIL

I didn't say the whole thing is a prank, I said that that particular METAPHORICAL event was a prank.

God told Adam and Eve not to eat the apple. But it was a test if you will, because he really wanted us to eat from the tree of knowledge. Because eating from the tree of knowledge is how we would become gods ourselves.

IMO, all conscious energy that is more evolved than ourselves (i.e. God) is tasked with helping other energy achieve the same level of consciousness. That means that God wants us to evolve to the same point as him.


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## LOSTONE

> God told Adam and Eve not to eat the apple. But it was a test if you will, because he really wanted us to eat from the tree of knowledge. Because eating from the tree of knowledge is how we would become gods ourselves.


I wonder how well you actually know the bible.

What you just said is almost exactly what Satan said back in the garden of Eden.

He basically said that if we were to eat from the tree of the Knowledge of good and bad that it would make us equal to God.

Obviously this has proved to be a lie.

All we have accomplished by going against God is the destruction of ourselves and of our planet.

God warned Adam and Eve that eating from that tree would kill them. And it did kill them and it also is killing all of their offspring. We are still suffering the effects of their actions. We are not God's. We would not even be in existence if it were not for God's abundant mercy he has shown toward us.

We have ruined ourselves and our planet that we are living on.

We have defiled ourselves. We have not improved anything.

We have ruined ourselves and this Earth, so how is it that we have become anything like God?

Yes we know what bad means now. 
Personally I would rather not know anything about this badness. The lesson was extremely painful.

And what was the lesson?
What should we have learned from eating from the tree of the knowledge?

That is that we should listen to and obey our creator because he obviously knows what is best for us.

I don't have a lot of hope for anyone who has not figured that out by now.


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## Guest

.


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## LOSTONE

> And in a way by going up on that cross that is exactly what jesus did.


Actually if you read up some history then you will learn that Jesus did not die on a cross. He died on a stake or a tree. The Roman Crucifiction actually just nailed people either to a tree or a stake, the cross was introduced to religion from other religious icons that had nothing to do with the Roman Cricifiction. 
Some bible translations say the word "Cross" but the actual word in Greek means "torture stake".



> lostone wrote
> I found the truth about God on my own.
> -------------------------------
> But you havent because you claim you will not look for yourself but trust only the bible.
> Also throughout history big changes have been made to the bible and the christian doctrine,what we have now in terms of the bible bareley resembles the real doctrine of jesus christ.So are you saying your beleifs that you are so cock sure of would have changed because ?man? changed the bible.


Actually I have looked on my own already. 
The conclusion I have came to after 10 years of searching is that the bible is the word of God.

Yes the bible has been changed a little in different translations. But we do actually have original copies that go as far back as 200 BC! So we have original copies that are dated to be wrote before the entire bible was even complete! If you study the bible and you seriously search for the truth then it is not that hard to find. Yes the bible has been changed in some translations but everything can be cross referenced with original copies from the Hebrew and Greek scrolls that we have.



> I don?t think you should go praying for people if they have sincerely asked you not to because it may interfere with their spiritual practice,surley you can appreiciate that.


Yeah don't worry about that. 
I was just trying to get you to pray for yourself. 
I don't know how you pray but I would suggest that maybe you pray from your heart for guidance. I think that is the most important thing for us to pray for.



> Ten people could whitness the same event but each may perceive it differently yet the same thing happened,but each acount would still be true.


So if one man says that a light is green and another man says that a light is red then that means that the light is green and red at the same time? This type of thinking would be very confusing for cops. People do lie, you may like to think that people are perfect and that their is no such thing as a lie but I don't think that would be a wise thing to believe in this world. From my perspective there seems to be many more lies in this world then their is truth.



> God doesn?t create imperfection


I agree.



> he is not aware of himself as imperfect, an awareness of perfection can only be created by a perception imperfection,and god is neither.


I am not sure what your saying here. God is neither perfect or imperfect?

Personally I consider Jehovah God to be the standard of perfection.



> there you find forgivness which is mercy,which is gods only judgement.


So are you saying that you believe that God condones the bad things that are taking place on this earth? I believe God is very merciful but I do not believe that God is merciful to the point of being ignorant of wrongdoing and being ignorant of wrongdoers who are not repenting of their ways. 
I personally believe that the historical lessons of the bible are all very real. Historians have proven many of those accounts to have been literal events. God's power is not limited to mercy but it is his desire to show mercy to whoever is seeking that mercy from him.



> That is just ego talking-.?Oh im so humble,?my ego is dying??im so good? its rubbish.
> It never occurs to a saint that they are humble or good or even a saint.Because they have completely transcended ego,knowing it was never real-its not dying.


If you do not know what humble means then I must assume you are retarded. If saints do not know what it means then I must assume that they are retarded. Knowing what humility is does not have anything to do with your own personal ego. My perception of myself being humble does however there is no way for you to know for sure if my words are true or not unless you know who I am as a person. The reason I say that my ego must be very small is simply because I do not get upset to much when people try to attack my ego. I also personally know that I always try to put other people above myself. If this means that I am egotistical then maybe I am retarded. As far as I know though, humility means lowly.

Maybe I am not seeing the truth about myself, that is a possibility I guess but I figure that my actions speak louder then words anyway. I am not my own judge and I realize this so when I say that I am humble I am trying to say even this in a humble manor, knowing that I am not even my own judge. When I say that I am humble I am aware that I am simply stating my perception of myself and I realize my perception is possibly flawed somewhat as it is for everyone. I do believe that I am humble but I would not ever say that it is a fact that I am humble, if I were to say that then I think that would be proof of extreme haughtiness and ignorance on my part.



> How the hell can you say as a christian that we are not being ruled by god!


This is where the confusion begins. There are to many "so called Christians" who do not even know what the bible teaches. That is simply amazing to me. How can anyone consider themselves to be a Christian and not know what the bible teaches? I do not even consider myself a Christian since I am not baptized but still I know that the bible does in fact clearly teach the exact opposite of what most so called Christians are preaching.

I will show you the scriptures if you don't believe me.

*1 John 5:19
We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one.

Words of Jesus Christ
John 14:30
I shall not speak much with YOU anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me

John 18:36
Jesus answered: ?My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews.

Jesus speaking about himself and his apostles.
John 17:16
They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.

Also

James 4:4
Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.

{And mostly, this scripture points out who truly is ruling this earth. This ruler was even able to tempt Jesus Christ by offering the entire world of kingdoms to Jesus after Jesus was baptized and came back from the wilderness.

Take note of what Jesus reply was to this tempting offer. }

Mt 4:8-10
8 Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, 9 and he said to him: ?All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.? 10 Then Jesus said to him: ?Go away, Satan! For it is written, ?It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.??*

If Satan the Devil did not actually own these Kingdoms then Jesus would have pointed that out and told Satan that they were not his to give. It is obvious by Jesus reply that indeed Satan the Devil is the true ruler of this world right now.

We are living inside a rebellion against Jehovah God our creator. 
That is a very clear teaching of the bible. And it is why Jesus death is so important for anyone who does not wish to be a part of this rebellion.



> Honestly.That perfect kingdom is right here now already.


If that is what you want to believe then that is fine. I will not argue with you about that. That is an opinion and all I can say is that in my opinion, this world is not a world of perfect kingdoms. I won't get into detail about that though, I don't see the point.



> Just talk directly to god.


Personally I don't view myself as Jehovah God's master. 
I view him as my God who is instructing me and possibly showing me mercy.

I do speak to my God in prayer but I don't speak at him. I don't tell him what to do. I strive always to be doing what he tells me to do. I know what he wants me to do by reading the bible and praying for guidance.



> This isn?t true ive read several accounts where it says god sent temptation to the saints to test them.And actually from personal experience I would have to disagree with that statement.


I don't know what your talking about so I can not reply to this. I can show you what the bible says though.

*James 1:13
When under trial, let no one say: ?I am being tried by God.? For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.*



> We are neither unequal to god or equal to him,we are not different from god nor the same as god because to say either is imcomplete.If we say we are the same as him then differentation would also be being implied and need to be true for us to have the illusion of samness.,both are mind made,not truth.


I don't even understand what you are trying to say here. 
Personally I view Jehovah God as our creator. He is the creator of everything else that exists. That is what I believe. 
I am not sure if I understand your view of God but it don't make a lot of difference to me. I know who my God is. My God is Jehovah.


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## FightingDepression

LOSTONE said:


> God warned Adam and Eve that eating from that tree would kill them. And it did kill them and it also is killing all of their offspring. We are still suffering the effects of their actions. We are not God's. We would not even be in existence if it were not for God's abundant mercy he has shown toward us.


Actually if I remember correctly, he said they will die instantly.
900 something years isn't instantly.

And let's be correct, they wouldn't have offsprings without eating from the tree, that was one of the punishes he gave once he threw them out of haven.

Btw, I will never figure out why the genesis of the jewish and christian bible is different.. it's supposed to be the same god, the story seems almost the same.. but so many things changed it's just not the same anymore.


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## LOSTONE

FightingDepression

I am not sure where you are getting your information.

The bible does not say that Adam and Eve would die instantly.

It just says that they would die, and they did die.

The bible also shows that God had a purpose for Adam and Eve and that purpose did not change after they had sinned.

That purpose was for Adam and Eve to fill the earth and subdue it and build it into a paradise.

This is still God's purpose for Adam and Eve's offspring and for this earth.

Jehovah God himself has provided the means needed for making this possible despite the sin of Adam and Eve.



> Btw, I will never figure out why the genesis of the jewish and christian bible is different.. it's supposed to be the same god, the story seems almost the same.. but so many things changed it's just not the same anymore.


I don't know about what differences you are talking about. We have many original scrolls that date all the way back to 200 BC so any changes are well known about. For example the change in the King James bible where they have taken the name of God out of the bible almost 7,000 times, only leaving the name Jehovah in that translation in just 4 scriptures.

Yes there are changes but they are easy to spot because we have many different original copies of the books of the bible that date back to basically the time when they were first penned. Also it is true that some of the real meaning of words may get distorted a little when it is translated into different languages. This is why Jehovah's Witnesses often explain what the original Greek and Hebrew words literally meant to those people who spoke those languages when the books of the bible were first wrote.

So if you are diligently searching for the truth of what the bibles teachings are then it is not really that hard to find. Besides, God knows who his people are, he knows us better then he knows himself. IF he sees that someone has the right heart condition and is searching for him then Jehovah God himself will guide that person into the right direction and reveal himself.



> And let's be correct, they wouldn't have offsprings without eating from the tree, that was one of the punishes he gave once he threw them out of haven.


Again, you may want to source your information because I do not know what you are talking about. I am sure that what you said here does not come from the bible. I have never even heard anyone say that before. If you have a source for your information then please provide it for me.


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## FightingDepression

Sources = the jewish bible.

I didn't really read much of the christian version.

But many things seems to be different, especially in the first chapters.

I don't know any site to show them, easiest thing to do will be read the first chapter or something and you'll notice the diffrences.


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## LOSTONE

To be honest, I know more about the Quran then I know about the Talmud but I always thought that the Genesis account in the Talmud came from the same source as the Genesis account in all of the bible translations.

I don't know that much about the modern Jewish religion but if you read the bible then things may become more clear for you.

Since the beginning of the nation of Israel started way back in the days of Israel himself, the Hebrew people were expecting a Messiah or Christ to arrive. They knew the exact dates of his arrival and they knew extensive details about his life. Many of these very specific details were down in writing almost 1,000 years BC. So when Jesus Christ arrived there should have been no reason for the Jews to question the identity of Jesus Christ. There were more prophecies about Jesus Christ then there were about anything else.

The messiah arrived and the Jews put him to death. As far as I know, the Jews are still denying Jesus and they are still waiting for their messiah who has already came and went. If you read the bible then it becomes much more clear why there are differences. Israel killed their own King and now they are continuing to deny him.

This is why the preaching work spread out of Israel so quickly after Jesus death. Israel broke their covenant with God and with Jesus death that law covenant was done away with and is not recognized by God anymore. God has made a new covenant based upon Jesus sacrifice. This new covenant is made not just with the Abraham's seed but it is made with everyone from all nations who are displaying faith in Jesus sacrifice and getting baptized in his name, dedicating themselves to Jehovah God.

*Acts 15:14
Sym?e?on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. *

*Isaiah 2:2-4
2 And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. 3 And many peoples will certainly go and say: ?Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.? For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. 4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.*

I would just like to point out that the prophecy above has not been accomplished by the modern nation of Israel or by the modern Jewish religion. 
The only people I know who have beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears, who are not lifting up sword nation against nation but rather are completely united in a bond of love and peace, these people are the Jehovah's Witnesses. They are the only people I know who are worthy of glorifying God's holy name.

As far as I know, Isaiah is one of the Jewish prophets to this day, they still consider him a prophet as far as I know. What they do not realize is that his prophecy at Isaiah 2:2-4 has already came true, the Jehovah's Witnesses have fulfilled this prophecy on a worldwide scale.

Also notice the prophecy at 
*Genesis 22:15-18
15 And Jehovah?s angel proceeded to call to Abraham the second time out of the heavens 16 and to say: ??By myself I do swear,? is the utterance of Jehovah, ?that by reason of the fact that you have done this thing and you have not withheld your son, your only one, 17 I shall surely bless you and I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand that are on the seashore; and your seed will take possession of the gate of his enemies. 18 And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice.?? *

Jehovah said that to Abraham because Abraham was willing to give up his only son to Jehovah God as a sacrifice. This display of faith was blessed and Jehovah prevented Abraham from sacrificing his son and then Jehovah sent his own son as a sacrifice for our sins. That man was Jesus Christ.

Notice how it says that all nations of the earth will bless themselves due to Abraham's faith. This has already happened. Throughout the entire earth there are millions of faithful followers of Jesus Christ who are blessing themselves on the blood of Abraham's seed, Abraham's seed being the Christ.

So if you really search things out then you will notice that the Jewish religion has went against itself in a way by killing their own King and Savior. So the only way that the Jews would be able to continue their ways at all would be for them to change and twist the truth about things in order to make it look as if Jesus was not the Christ.

There are also changes within some of the so called Christian religions. Many false teachings and many evil things have been introduced over the years. The truth has remained intact though. We now have original copies of the old scriptures that date to the same time period of when those scriptures were first wrote down. These copies we now have help to back up the truths of the bible in a major way. They make all lies and changes very clear and visible because if any changes were made then those copies would be different from the original. The most well known scriptures we have from the time period before Jesus birth was the Dead Sea scrolls. Those back up all the prophecies about Jesus and show that many details about Jesus life was indeed down in writing before Jesus was ever even born.

FightingDepression if you want to read the copy of the bible that I have then you can find it here. 
http://watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm

That is where I get my quotes from.

That bible translation seems to be the most accurate. Although there are others that are wrote in almost the same style as the NWT also. One of the things I like about the meetings I goto with the Jehovah's Witnesses is that they often quote from different bible translations so that we can get a better idea of the true meaning that the bible writers were trying to convey. Sometimes they even explain the literal translation from the original Greek and Hebrew words. Going to these meetings has helped me understand the bible in a way that I never thought possible.

I am glad that I have paid attention to what is stated at Hebrews 10:25 and I have not been forsaking the gathering of God's people. They have helped me a great deal to understand the bible better. It is almost impossible to understand things completely without help.

We just have to be careful who we choose to get our help from.

Personally I get the most help from Jehovah God himself. I would not be alive if he were not supporting me, I know this for a fact. I am not enduring my life on my own power, that would be impossible.


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## FightingDepression

Seems to me to people are just trying to make excuses on greater beings to explain why things happen.

And when they conflict with their belief, they just make an excuse how Satan cause that.

I don't see how people burning, kids starving to death and/or being slaughtered (it still happens nowdays) is God's will or how God is helping them.

And if you say that he's helping them in the afterlife or something stupid like that which goes with blind faith.. we have no reason to talk.

Knock it off, why believe in a greater being and drop your own power insteads of actually working to do the difference? "Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer"

You can quote things from the bible all day long to claim that God's will is being done, but when it only proves that someone said about 2000 years ago that God will "is always being done" without actually proving that it's being done.

If the great omnipotent God is so all power-full all knowing, he should have known everything before it started.

God should also be able to correct everything in a split of a second.

"It ain't the parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand."

If my fate is to go to hell and burn for enternity because I actually try to help people while God is just sitting ignoring everything that he created (IF God actually exists) then so be it! I can't just stand aside and watch people die and suffer.


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## LOSTONE

> I don't see how people burning, kids starving to death and/or being slaughtered (it still happens nowdays) is God's will or how God is helping them.


The bible does not say that those things are God's will.

What it actually says is that those are the types of things that is going to bring God's wrath.

*De 32:4,5
4 The Rock, perfect is his activity,
For all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice;
Righteous and upright is he.

5 They have acted ruinously on their own part;
They are not his children, the defect is their own.
A generation crooked and twisted! *

It is understandable to wonder about the evils of this world but you should not be quick to blame God for the evil actions that he himself is not responsible for. The bible fully explains why these terrible things are taking place and it also explains what God has done and what God is going to do about the situation we are now living in.

Remember, the bible makes it very clear. Jehovah God is not the ruler of this world right now. This is Satan's world, this world is a reflection of Satan the Devil, not Jehovah God.

Jehovah's day is coming very soon though and when that day comes then Satan and all of Satan's followers will be brought to ruin. Then Jehovah God will give the earth over to the victims of this world and the meek and the humble will find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace!

Read Psalms chapter 94

*1 O God of acts of vengeance, Jehovah,
O God of acts of vengeance, beam forth!

2 Raise yourself up, O Judge of the earth.
Bring back a retribution upon the haughty ones.

3 How long are the wicked, O Jehovah,
How long are the wicked themselves going to exult?

4 They keep bubbling forth, they keep speaking unrestrained;
All the practicers of what is hurtful keep bragging about themselves.

5 Your people, O Jehovah, they keep crushing,
And your inheritance they keep afflicting.

6 The widow and the alien resident they kill,
And the fatherless boys they murder.

7 And they keep saying: ?Jah does not see;
And the God of Jacob does not understand [it].?

8 Understand, YOU who are unreasoning among the people;
And as for YOU stupid ones, when will YOU have any insight?

9 The One planting the ear, can he not hear?
Or the One forming the eye, can he not look?

10 The One correcting the nations, can he not reprove,
Even the One teaching men knowledge?

11 Jehovah is knowing the thoughts of men, that they are as an exhalation.

12 Happy is the able-bodied man whom you correct, O Jah,
And whom you teach out of your own law,

13 To give him quietness from days of calamity,
Until for the wicked one a pit is excavated.

14 For Jehovah will not forsake his people,
Nor will he leave his own inheritance.

15 For judicial decision will return even to righteousness,
And all the upright in heart will follow it.

16 Who will rise up for me against the evildoers?
Who will take his stand for me against the practicers of hurtfulness?

17 Unless Jehovah had been of assistance to me,
In a little while my soul would have resided in silence.

18 When I said: ?My foot will certainly move unsteadily,?
Your own loving-kindness, O Jehovah, kept sustaining me.

19 When my disquieting thoughts became many inside of me,
Your own consolations began to fondle my soul.

20 Will the throne causing adversities be allied with you
While it is framing trouble by decree?

21 They make sharp attacks on the soul of the righteous one
And pronounce wicked even the blood of the innocent one.

22 But Jehovah will become a secure height for me,
And my God the rock of my refuge.

23 And he will turn back upon them their hurtfulness
And will silence them with their own calamity.
Jehovah our God will silence them. *

Also Psalms 37
*1 Do not show yourself heated up because of the evildoers.
Do not be envious of those doing unrighteousness.

2 For like grass they will speedily wither,
And like green new grass they will fade away.

3 Trust in Jehovah and do good;
Reside in the earth, and deal with faithfulness.

4 Also take exquisite delight in Jehovah,
And he will give you the requests of your heart.

5 Roll upon Jehovah your way,
And rely upon him, and he himself will act.

6 And he will certainly bring forth your righteousness as the light itself,
And your justice as the midday.

7 Keep silent before Jehovah
And wait longingly for him.
Do not show yourself heated up at anyone making his way successful,
At the man carrying out [his] ideas.

8 Let anger alone and leave rage;
Do not show yourself heated up only to do evil.

9 For evildoers themselves will be cut off,
But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth.

10 And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more;
And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be.

11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

12 The wicked one is plotting against the righteous one,
And at him he is grinding his teeth.

13 Jehovah himself will laugh at him,
For he certainly sees that his day will come.

14 The wicked ones have drawn a sword itself and have bent their bow,
To cause the afflicted and poor one to fall,
To slaughter those who are upright in [their] way.

15 Their own sword will enter into their heart,
And their own bows will be broken.

16 Better is the little of the righteous one
Than the abundance of the many wicked ones.

17 For the very arms of the wicked ones will be broken,
But Jehovah will be supporting the righteous ones.

18 Jehovah is aware of the days of the faultless ones,
And their very inheritance will continue even to time indefinite.

19 They will not be ashamed in the time of calamity,
And in the days of famine they will be satisfied.

20 For the wicked themselves will perish,
And the enemies of Jehovah will be like the preciousness of pastures;
They must come to their end. In smoke they must come to their end.

21 The wicked one is borrowing and does not pay back,
But the righteous one is showing favor and is making gifts.

22 For those being blessed by him will themselves possess the earth,
But those upon whom evil is called by him will be cut off.

23 By Jehovah the very steps of an able-bodied man have been made ready,
And in his way He takes delight.

24 Although he may fall, he will not be hurled down,
For Jehovah is supporting his hand.

25 A young man I used to be, I have also grown old,
And yet I have not seen anyone righteous left entirely,
Nor his offspring looking for bread.

26 All day long he is showing favor and lending,
And so his offspring are in line for a blessing.

27 Turn away from what is bad and do what is good,
And so reside to time indefinite.

28 For Jehovah is a lover of justice,
And he will not leave his loyal ones.
To time indefinite they will certainly be guarded;
But as for the offspring of the wicked ones, they will indeed be cut off.

29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it.

30 The mouth of the righteous is the one that utters wisdom in an undertone,
And his is the tongue that speaks justly.

31 The law of his God is in his heart;
His steps will not wobble.

32 The wicked one is keeping on the watch for the righteous
And is seeking to put him to death.

33 As for Jehovah, he will not leave him to the hand of that one,
And he will not pronounce him wicked when he is being judged.

34 Hope in Jehovah and keep his way,
And he will exalt you to take possession of the earth.
When the wicked ones are cut off, you will see [it].

35 I have seen the wicked a tyrant
And spreading himself as a luxuriant [tree] in native soil.

36 And yet he proceeded to pass away, and there he was not;
And I kept seeking him, and he was not found.

37 Watch the blameless one and keep the upright one in sight,
For the future of [that] man will be peaceful.

38 But the transgressors themselves will certainly be annihilated together;
The future of wicked people will indeed be cut off.

39 And the salvation of the righteous ones is from Jehovah;
He is their fortress in the time of distress.

40 And Jehovah will help them and provide them with escape.
He will provide them with escape from wicked people and save them,
Because they have taken refuge in him. *

No lasting harm can come to any of Jehovah's people!

Jehovah's day of judgment will come very soon. 
After that day of judgment then this world will be transformed into a paradise and Jehovah will bring back all the innocent victims of this world.
Jehovah will resurrect a countless number of people from death. Those people will reside upon this earth forever while living under Jehovah's perfect Kingdom arrangement.

The days of lawlessness and chaos will be quickly brought to an end!

It is unwise to blame Jehovah God for the evil things that you yourself are doing and to blame Jehovah God for the evil things that other humans and demons are doing. It is very unwise to do this and then at the same time say that you do not care to listen to the holy teachings and the holy and peaceful ways of Jehovah.

The bible says that Jehovah is slow to anger and abundant in loving kindness but I assure all of you that Jehovah's day of anger is going to eventually come!

Again, it is very unwise to continue to blame Jehovah God for our problems while continuing to sin against him.

We have no real power against our creator. 
Anyone who does not desire to live in God's Kingdom will not be living there. Jehovah leaves the choice up to us.

As I said before.
We are not currently living in the Kingdom of God. 
We are living in a rebellion against God's Kingdom. 
If we want to be able to live in God's perfect Kingdom and continue to live forever upon this earth and take part in transforming this earth into a paradise then we need to turn back to Jehovah God and learn about his ways and apply his teachings to our life.

The choice is ours.

It does not make sense to me why Jehovah's offer of everlasting life on a paradise earth is so upsetting to so many people?

In reality it is not Jehovah who is bringing destruction upon anyone. It is the wicked who are bringing about their own destruction themselves. You can not blame Jehovah God for anything.


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## LOSTONE

Also I want to make it clear that Jehovah's will is not taking place upon this earth right now.

It is to some extent because there are some people who are striving to obey Jehovah God but most of humanity is rebelling against God right now.

If Jehovah's will was taking place then Jesus Christ would not have told us to pray for God's will to take place upon the earth as it is taking place in heaven.

*Mt 6:10
10 Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.*

Also the issue about "hell" was brought up and I just would like to point out that most of what is preached about hell from false religions are all false teachings. The teaching from the bible is very clear about death.

*Ec 9:5,6
5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.*

If you want to learn more about hell then read these articles.

They explain the truth about hell and about death based upon honest bible teachings.

Should You Be Afraid of Death?
http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/200 ... cle_01.htm

What Has Happened to Hellfire?
http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/200 ... cle_01.htm

God does not get joy out of tormenting people, he has made this very clear. He does not even enjoy having to destroy wicked people so why would he enjoy tormenting them?

*Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ??As I am alive,? is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ?I take delight, not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living. Turn back, turn back from YOUR bad ways, for why is it that YOU should die
*


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## CECIL

FightingDepression said:


> I don't see how people burning, kids starving to death and/or being slaughtered (it still happens nowdays) is God's will or how God is helping them.


IMO this is our free will, choosing to continue doing this. Which is valid and its a learning experience for those involved.



> "Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer"


Very well said 



> God should also be able to correct everything in a split of a second.


But doesn't need to, because everything is unfolding exactly how it should be  We are all already perfect!


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## LOSTONE

> We are all already perfect!


So "Willy Pete", "Depleted Uranium" and "Nuclear bombs" are just part of our perfection.

Personally I have a very different opinion.

My opinion that this world is very messed up was formed before I ever read the bible.

The bible only confirms what I see with my eyes and what I hear with my ears each day I am living in this world.


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## FightingDepression

The world is indeed messed up.
Humans have a habbit to mess things up.

But I don't see how the bible can be true, especially if you are trying to take it word for word.
And if the bible is not to be taken word for word then god can't be more than just a spiritual way and not a real entity.


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## Guest

Deleted.


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## Guest

Vicious Circles.


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## Guest

.


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## Guest

Attacking/debating each other?s beliefs causes insecurities, which causes a long circle which only ends when one sheds tears.



> ?im just freindly debating?


Do not justify yourself alone? we?re all together on this.



> ?As lostone said earlier im just glad that we are all "religious" people.?


If you?re able to locate where he quoted this, would you please quote it?

Cheers.

))) Hugs (((


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## LOSTONE

> LOSTONE WROTE
> I am not sure what your saying here. God is neither perfect or imperfect?
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> MY REPLY
> You never will because ?I? am not saying anything,and im just transcending everything you say.


Spirit if you believe that you are transcending everything that I say then I don't see the point in trying to talk to you anymore.

Spirit
Emulated Puppet}eer

And to everyone else.

I don't consider myself as taking part in a debate.

I am simply speaking the truth about Jehovah God and I am trying to get anyone who is reading this to think about things for themselves.



> Well if you came up here and looked down instead of looking up from down there????..we see things from a different perspective


Spirit I will never let myself become a haughty man ever again, or at least I don't plan to. I remind myself each day of the fact that I am dust because I know that in reality that is what I am. I do not look down upon anything or anyone. I am only looking up, always toward my God who is Jehovah.



> The way you view things lostone makes me ask you,do you ever think to yourself we are able to do these things because god created us in the first place of corse you don?t of corse you don?t blame it on god neither do I.-you don?t turn away from him then,but neither do you blame him.Where do you stand on that,actually I don?t even wanna hear the answar -not If its from the bible and I have nothing against the bible I just wondered on your reasoning.


If you don't want to know about the truth about Jehovah God then that is fine. I am not going to explain my reasoning to you though because my reasoning is based upon the truth about our creator, so if you don't want to know the truth about our creator, or if you are just going to transcend my words anyway then I am not going to waste my time in speaking to you anymore. There are other people I can talk to that may want to learn something. If anyone does want to know what the truth is about Jehovah God and about our situation here on this earth then they can contact me vie email or PM.

I have posted a lot here in the past few weeks and I have explained many things already on this forum. If anyone seriously and honestly wants to know more about the bible then they can contact me and I will be happy to answer any questions.



> LOSTONE WROTE
> The bible only confirms what I see with my eyes and what I hear with my ears each day I am living in this world.
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> I SAY-that?s because you view things from greed hatred or delusion grasping at this or that,that?s the world you live in.


Spirit, I just want you to know that I would never make such judgments about you or about your beliefs. Actually it would be against my own beliefs to do so.

Personally I try to never judge others and I do not judge others beliefs. 
I only seek to let other people know what the truth is. It is my belief that the information in the bible is a life saving information and I seek to share this information with others in order to save lives. 
If you are considering me to be doing this out of greed, hatred or because I am delusional then I am not going to speak anymore on here. Maybe others want to know more about the truths found in the bible, if anyone does want to know more about the truth found in the bible then feel free to contact me.

I have reached a point on here where I think it is time for me to stop speaking now about the truth. So I will stop and focus my attention somewhere else.


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## LOSTONE

> But I don't see how the bible can be true, especially if you are trying to take it word for word.


Why?

You don't need to answer that, it is just something to think about.

What bothers you about the bible?

Much of what is thought to be bible teachings are actually lies.

For example the teaching about hell being totally literal. 
That teaching obviously being false when you examen scripture.

Or the teaching that God kills people to take them to be up in heaven with him. That is another obvious lie.

Or maybe the teachings about this world bothers you. 
Most religions do not even realize that Jehovah God is not the ruler of this world. He is almighty and all powerful but this world we are living in is operating a rebellion against God. This is very clear when you read the bible but the lies of false religion make this truth very hard to understand.

FightingDepression the truth is that most of what is preached about the bible are all lies. If you study the bible itself and you pray to God and search for him with an honest heart then eventually you will understand the truth of the bible.



> And if the bible is not to be taken word for word then god can't be more than just a spiritual way and not a real entity.


Jehovah God does exist and he has millions of dedicated servants all over the entire world right now who are sanctifying his holy name. 
The scriptures in the bible are all beneficial and they all have a point but the entire bible is not totally literal. If it was all to be taken entirely literal then the bible would be contradicting itself on some issues. The bible does not contradict itself! Some things in the bible are symbolic, even some things spoken about Jehovah God himself are said in a symbolic way. For example what is said at De 32:4 where Jehovah God is called "The Rock"
Jehovah is not literally a Rock, that is obviously symbolic.

Although there are many scriptures that are very literal. For example the scripture at Isaiah 2:4
*4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.*

That is a literal prophecy that has already been fulfilled by the Jehovah's Witnesses.

So you may want to think about the possibility that maybe you can not see how the bible can be true simply because you do not fully understand the bible yet. It is a possibility don't you think?

Maybe if you studied the bible with people who are actually following bible teachings then those people would be able to help you understand that the bible is in fact the inspired word of Jehovah God.

If you want to study the bible and know more about it then you can start a free home bible study with Jehovah's Witnesses by contacting them here.
https://watch002.securesites.net/contact/submit.htm

God will never force anyone to do anything. 
He does make us all responsible for our own actions though. 
What you do is your choice, just remember that you are the one who will be responsible for whatever choices you make during your life.


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## LOSTONE

Ok I am going to leave here now for awhile.

As I said, I have posted a lot of information on here the past few weeks.

I will keep checking my Private messages and my email but I am not going to drag these threads out anymore then what I already have.


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## FightingDepression

So... do you really believe the universe was created about 6k years ago?
And do you really believe a great flood wiped the earth and left only Noah and whoever was on the arc alive?


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## LOSTONE

> So... do you really believe the universe was created about 6k years ago?


No, because the bible does not say that anywhere.
The bible only gives us a good history of humanity, it does that by giving us a detailed genealogy. The bible says nothing about the age of the earth though.



> And do you really believe a great flood wiped the earth and left only Noah and whoever was on the arc alive?


Yes the biblical account about this is very clear. 
Also science backs the story up because of the fact that over 80% of the earth has been covered by sedimentary rock!

There are some things in the bible such as the flood of Noah's day and the splitting of the Red sea by Mosses that are hard for us to understand. It is not hard to understand though if you realize who was behind these events. Jehovah God is the creator of the entire universe. Covering the earth with a global flood or splitting the Red Sea is not a very complicated task for the creator of the entire universe.

If you were to study the bible and learn about the accuracy and perfect track record of biblical accounts then you would have more faith in what the bible says. There are thousands of historical accounts in the bible that could have been proven wrong but never have been. Actually proven history has always backed up the bible and never once went against the bible when speaking about facts. So I am sure if we had all the facts about the flood then it would be very clear that the bible was very accurate about that account just as it is about all other historical accounts that are not even disputed anymore.

Here is some more interesting information about the flood if you want to read it.

Why Was An
Ancient World
Destroyed?
http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/200 ... cle_01.htm


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## Guest

LOSTONE said:


> Spirit
> Emulated Puppet}eer
> 
> And to everyone else.
> 
> I don't consider myself as taking part in a debate.
> 
> I am simply speaking the truth about Jehovah God and I am trying to get anyone who is reading this to think about things for themselves.





> preach: (PERSUADE)
> to try to persuade other people to believe in a particular belief or follow a particular way of life.


Ok so you?re not ?debating? anything? you?re ?just? kindly trying to persuade us about ?truth? (Which hasn?t been confirmed, that?s why it?s called a ?faith?) by preaching towards us? that?s fine, although I will follow my own path.


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## FightingDepression

The bible does give you the age of the universe.
It says God created the world in 6 days, 7th was rest.
It gives you the ages of the "first men" on earth.
You can count it to get the date of creation (some bishop did so)

A quick google site gives a site that might explain it (didn't dig into that site)
http://www.albatrus.org/english/theolog ... _earth.htm

And btw, science does not prove the flood and actually, there is hardly evidence for it.


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## Guest

FightingDepression said:


> It says God created the world in 6 days, 7th was rest.


Not to be rude... but that statment is laughtable towards me "Each to their own.com".

Thanks for bringing it up FD.


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## Pablo

LOSTONE said:


> .
> Spirit
> Emulated Puppet}eer
> 
> And to everyone else.
> 
> I don't consider myself as taking part in a debate.
> 
> I am simply speaking the truth about Jehovah God and I am trying to get anyone who is reading this to think about things for themselves.


You are in the *Debate* section of the site


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## LOSTONE

> You are in the Debate section of the site


That is true.

If the word debate is being used in the sense of a simple discussion of questions and answers then I would have no problem with taking part in a debate.

I do not like the idea of taking part in a contest though. When I speak about God then I will only speak about the things that I already know are the truth. I will not argue in the form of a contest.

According to my own beliefs, this world is mostly against the truth (since the world is currently being ruled by the original lier and resister against Jehovah God) and therefore I would have a hard time winning a contest of truth here.

All I can do is speak about what things I know about and that is what I have done.

I am not contesting with anyone. I am simply speaking the truth.

I can see that this thread is sort of turning into a contest because of some of the things that have been said. I don't desire to argue or win a contest of words. 
That is not why I posted here.


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## Guest

Truth from the eye of the beholder? your truth is not ?our? truth? and that is ?point?. *Feels like a winner*... Can I have a golden star please?


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## LOSTONE

FightingDepression The word "Day" that is used to describe the days of creation can also be translated into the word "age".

The word in Hebrew was not always used to describe a 24 hour day from sunrise to sunset. The word was often used to describe a period of time.

If you look up the word that was translated into "day" and read up about it's true meaning then you will realize that 7 days are simply 7 periods of time, each being distinctive from each other.

This is even more evident by pointing out that the 7th day has not even ended yet!

FightingDepression

If you have any other questions then please ask them vie PM.

I am willing to answer questions and I am willing to talk about things but as I said, I do not want to get into a contest with people. I am not looking to win an argument.


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## Pablo

A debate doesnt have to be a contest it can be a mutual exchange of ideas where all parties learn from one anothers views and opinions..... but seeing that you believe that there is nothing for you to learn from anybody else I guess there is no point in continuing.

My view is that if you really did know the "truth" Lostone then you would be living a blisssful life with perfect mental health and the last thing you would be doing is spending time preaching on this site and suffering from mental difficulties like dp/dr.


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## LOSTONE

> your truth is not ?our? truth


Yes I agree.

That is why I do not desire to take part in a contest.

*1 John 5:19
We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one.*

I am already aware that most of this world disagrees with me about what is the truth. That is why I realize it is pointless for me to argue or get into any sort of contest about things.

I am not looking for an argument to contest with people who choose not to listen to the voice of Jehovah God and his son Jesus Christ.

I just wanted to share what I know about the bible. 
I know I can not force anyone to believe what I believe and I will not try. I simply want to let people know what the bible says and what the truth is about the bible so that anyone who is searching for Jehovah God may be able to find him.

I am only speaking here for the benefit for anyone who wishes to listen to Jehovah God. 
*John 10:26-28
26 But YOU do not believe, because YOU are none of my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 And I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means ever be destroyed, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.*

Yes I am aware we do not believe in the same things. 
Yes it does make me happy that I know the truth but according to the truth, this world is still being ruled by Jehovah God's adversary and therefore DP/DR sadly is still a reality for me. I do believe that Jehovah God has the ability to heal all my ailments though. I also believe that Jehovah God has the ability to grant me everlasting life if he chooses. Currently I believe I am living in a world that is at enmity with Jehovah God and Jehovah's people. So for now I may have to suffer some things because of what is taking place here.

This reality does not change my joy for knowing the truth. I am very happy that I know who Jehovah God is. And I will be overjoyed once I get baptized and I dedicate myself to Jehovah God.


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## Pablo

LOSTONE said:


> I am only speaking here for the benefit for anyone who wishes to listen to Jehovah God.
> *1 John 10:26-28
> 26 But YOU do not believe, because YOU are none of my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 And I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means ever be destroyed, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.*


I imagine it makes you feel special and secure believing this and believing that you are following the only true path, which must be a nice feeling ......... but one day you will realise that it is just an illusion by your mind to make you feel safe in a hostile world.


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## LOSTONE

> but one day you will realise that it is just an illusion by your mind to make you feel safe in a hostile world.


Actually my acceptance of this truth is making me a target for God's enemies here.

Just as Jesus Christ was persecuted, I believe I will also be persecuted if I follow down his path.

But yes it does make me happy to know the truth about Jehovah and to be serving him. Although it does not make me entirely safe here, I know what I am doing is what is right.

*Mt 5:11
?Happy are YOU when people reproach YOU and persecute YOU and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against YOU for my sake.*

It is very clear to me that following Jesus Christ is not an easy lifestyle.

*Luke 21:12
?But before all these things people will lay their hands upon YOU and persecute YOU, delivering YOU up to the synagogues and prisons, YOU being haled before kings and governors for the sake of my name.

Luke 21:16,17
16 Moreover, YOU will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of YOU to death; 17 and YOU will be objects of hatred by all people because of my name.

Mt 16:24,25
24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: ?If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and continually follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it.
*

Although I know that my acceptance of this truth is also going to bring to me the same type of persecution that Jesus endured, I am happy to be able to endure that persecution because I know I am doing what is right, and I know that I am pleasing my creator and my God Jehovah by remaining loyal to him and continuing to speak the truth in the face of such persecution, even to my death if that is what must take place.


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## Guest

Pablo said:


> I imagine it makes you feel special and secure believing this and believing that you are following the only true path


Must also be lonely... no wonder he seeks people who relate.


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## CECIL

LOSTONE said:


> Just as Jesus Christ was persecuted, I believe I will also be persecuted if I follow down his path.


Ah man, we don't need any more martyrs 

"Come down, get off your fucking cross. We need the fucking space, to nail the next fool martyr!" - Tool, Eulogy.


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## Guest

.Deleted...whatever!!!!!!!!!


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## Guest

:roll:

Unholy scripture


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## Guest

*deleted*


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## LOSTONE

Spirit you never offending me and I am not wanting to leave this thread/forum simply because of anything you said.

Jehovah's Witnesses usually preach in a very organized way. I am not a Jehovah's Witness and I think I go to far sometimes myself in the way that I try to get my point across. I am realizing more and more how important it is for me to do things the right way. Getting into debates online about the subject of religion is something that I know is against what the point of the bible is. The bible teaches that Jehovah God is a God of peace and order and I know that it brings no honer or glory to his name if I am arguing with people about the bible or religion.

I was just talking to someone to day about how motivated I am to teach others about the bible and I know that the internet forums is not really the right place to be doing that. I am going to start going out in the ministry and focus my zeal towards a direction that is more positive. 
Forms are just to messy to be talking about God because there are to many people giving to many different views.

As I said before Spirit, my only intentions are for the benefit of others, that includes you. I am just not doing things the right way myself. I need to go out and talk to people in person about these things. I have been letting DP/DR hold me back for a long time but I am not going to let DP/DR be an issue for me anymore. Jehovah God is far more important to me then DP/DR is anyway.



> Actually my acceptance of this truth is making me a target for God's enemies here.
> 
> Just as Jesus Christ was persecuted, I believe I will also be persecuted if I follow down his path.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> I feel the same way myself,allways have .
> I am not one of gods enemys and now you are judging.


No actually I was not even directing that comment toward you Spirit. 
I made that comment because of what Pablo said



> but one day you will realise that it is just an illusion by your mind to make you feel safe in a hostile world.


I was trying to point out that my faith is not just made up so that I can feel safe or good in a hostile world.

And Spirit I don't remember ever calling you a retard. 
I think you were misunderstanding what I said.
I was not even trying to imply that you were retarded. I could have probably been much more tactful in the way that I was speaking but I assure you that I was not judging you.

I am sorry if I upset you though. Even if it is not justifiable for you to be upset, I am sorry anyway. Either way, I don't like to see people get upset at all when talking about God. I know that is not what God wants. Jehovah God is a God of peace and I don't like to think that maybe somehow I am not reflecting that quality very well while talking about Jehovah. So either way, I am sorry if you got upset about anything. It was not my intention to upset or offend anyone. I just want other people to know what I know about the bible.


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## LOSTONE

> Ah man, we don't need any more martyrs


If I die serving Jehovah God then I would not consider myself a martyr.

I would only consider myself loyal to my creator.

The word martyr has been confused over the years anyway.

Originally the word only meant to give a Witness to the truth.

Now it has more to do with death and suffering. I don't like the idea of considering myself a martyr, even if I do die loyal to Jehovah.

I would be content with Jehovah simply considering me to be a loyal Jehovah's Witness when I die.

My hope is that maybe the end of this system of things will come before my time and then maybe I will never have to die at all. 
I am not counting on that though. I just think it would be nice.


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## Guest

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## Guest

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## LOSTONE

> DOWN WITH THE STYSTEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil


Yeah thats one way to say it.

Jehovah's Witnesses usually say something more like *"Jehovah, let your Kingdom come! Let your will take place on earth as it is in heaven!"*

Basically it means the same thing though.


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## Guest

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## LOSTONE

It is hard to leave a thread when it is sending you emails each time someone replies to it.

I guess we need to disable the notify selection. 

Spirit I would just like to say that I actually agree with you in a sense about what you said. God's will is taking place on the earth in a way right now.

Nothing is taking place that God is not allowing. If God were not to allow it then it would not happen.

According to my beliefs though, most people are not doing what God says and eventually these people will be done away with.

That is why the bible says that a warning will go out to the entire earth in the last days because God desires for everyone to know about him and to turn back to him.

I do not agree that God's will is taking place completely because of the wrongs being done here.



> There are people on this earth now who are fufilling the will of god


Yes I do agree with that.

I do not believe that most people are doing God's will though, that is why I can not say that God's will is being fully carried out here on this earth right now.

Now I am being forced to leave here. No matter if I am getting emails or not. I have no more time to talk on the internet.

I just got a new job and I should be starting to go out in the ministry as an unbaptized publisher next week so I will have to say goodbye to all of you.



Hope everyone is all healed up if I ever visit this place again. And I hope that this website becomes very empty simply because everyone has found better things to do with their time rather then to talk about DP/DR on the internet every day.

Take care.


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## Guest

> I just got a new job


Good on you, hope everything goes well.


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## Guest

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