# the real bible



## widescreened

whenever anyone is quoting form the bible,i wonder do they realize or question its true origins.the bible was not discovered in its current format in one thick book.the bible is a collection of scrolls and parchments written by gnostics living before and at the time of jesus.what most people dont account for is the fact that many scrolls were purposfully ommitted or destroyed by the roman spindoctors and many lie in the vaults of the vatican unread by the masses.why?also,what of the writings that have been lost,yet to be discovered or simply those writings that got blown away in the desert or decomposed in the ground.it seem to me a foolish thing indeed to believe what people want us to believe when evidence and facts can be so easily manipulated.


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## Martinelv

Absolutely. But just one small thing:



> at the time of jesus


None of the bible was written by anyone who lived at the same time as Jesus. I think the earliest was St Pauls ramblings, and that was sixty after Jesus's supposed death. It's like me doing a biography of someone who may or may not have lived sixty years ago, and all I know about him is whispered myths and legends.


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## SillyPutty

What?
All four gospels, Mathew,Mark, Luke and John are all first hand accounts, eye witnesses.


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## Martinelv

They were not written by the individuals concerned though. They were written by tens of other people, a long time after their death. There is absolutely no contemporary evidence whatsoever.


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## Homeskooled

Martin, I dont think that is an entirely tenable position to have. We dont know that they _were_ written by eyewitnesses, and we dont know that they _werent_. Most of the hullabaloo is based on the Synoptic problem - the fact that Mathew, Mark, and Luke look as if they have been copied off one another. But it seems to be lost to most people that the fourth Gospel is not only told as an eyewitness account - in a way that the other three do not - but that its author is the only one of the Apostle's to not have been martyred. I beleive he was exiled to the Isle of Patmos until 80 something AD, at which point he died. If you read it, you will even note more than a touch of egotism from St. John, as he refers to the Apostle John not as "john" but as "the disciple Jesus loved". It was also probably from malnutrition and the isolation of being marooned that he wrote his trippy bestseller called "Revelations". Most people dont realize he was the author of that, and Martin, that sentence is the closest you'll ever find me coming to blasphemy, so enjoy it while you can.

Lastly, the Synoptic problem has numerous explanations, none of which seem to invalidate their authenticity. Luke, according to tradition, was *not* an eyewitness to begin with, so it lays to rest whether this is a new development. He was, according to tradition, a man of letters and a physican who traveled around Israel, Palestine, and Turkey, speaking to eyewitnesses like Mary and the remaining apostles, and I have no doubt, copying other sources. This leaves the unexplained similarities between Mark and Mathew. Into this gap can be fitted the two document hypothesis, which I wont go into, because like most theories, it relies on incomplete facts. It is very possible that these two Gospels were only named after the apostles who formed the original source materials. It is also very possible that Mathew seems to have a very accurate Greek translation of Hebrew, because the Apostle Mathew did indeed write it in his own language and either translated it himself or was translated by a Greek follower. Perhaps they are derived from an account given by Peter to Mathew and a compilation of Christ's sayings (the two source document theory). We'll never know for sure, and since almost all of the theories leave room for reliable source material for the Gospels, it isnt necessarily a problem.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## falling_free

Its all probably mystery school sun worship anyway (velied in symbolgy) made up by the ancient secret mystery schools

jesus -Sun of god

jesus is just our version of horus the egypitan sun god

satan is just an update of Set the adversaery of horus


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## falling_free

Egyptian ankh









Christian cross

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_Christianity

http://www.africawithin.com/black_histo ... ter10.html


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## Martinelv

Perhaps Homeskooled, but even that is up for scholarly debate. But either way, wouldn't you agree that it's a remarkably tenuous, weak and unsubstantiated starting point?


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## Guest

Interesting topic which I've been thinking about lately. I can't fathom why people have chosen the Bible as the authority on human behaviour. It was written by people, not God, it's been so edited and altered over its lifetime, BY HUMANS, and it's cryptic and contradictory, yet it's raised to the loftiest position a book could ever be. There are thousands of other meaningful documents on the same subject - Jesus or God trying to advise humans - many of them in the vatican, unread and untranslated, but they're ignored. Edmond Szekely translated some of them from Aramaic about 90 years ago and published them and established a foundation for this cause. The primary edition of his translations, entitled, "The Essene Gospel of Peace", which quotes Jesus as givng very simple advice to sick people, is still sold for the cost of ONE DOLLAR, so that anyone can afford it. He was a much wiser man from his study of original (don't remember how close in time to life of Jesus ) scrolls than most of our present-day Christians. And he strove to live according to the principles described in those scrolls. It's one of my favourite books, but it's hardly acknowledged.Talk about willful ignorance and clinging to the "acceptable". Go figure.


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## Guest

Another book that I stumbled upon a little while back was "Jesus-the lost years." It talks about Jesus's life age 13-30, and that there are documents that show he travelled all the way to China. According to this book--Jesus stayed in many monastaries, mastered many eastern spiritual practices, and was very fond of the eastern people. You have to read the book to read the evidence. An interesting find; it sort of displaces the theory that all buddhists and hindus are going to hell.


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## Sojourner

What seems to be forgotten in this discussion is (1) the Hebrew scriptures are up to 5,700 years old, and (2) the New Testament books are those that were actually USED in the liturgies of the Early Church. The Church as a community of faith decided what books were authentic, and personally, I think they had the right to make that decision.


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## falling_free

IT all comes from the mystery school snake cults
IT all comes from the mystery school snake cults
IT all comes from the mystery school snake cults

:lol:

Jesus - the christian version of horus (sun god saviour)

Set - also known as Set - an - Satan (your typical evil guy)


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## Guest

Hello widescreened
I'm a christian and I hear what your saying but I believe in the bible because I believe in Jesus as my personal savior, And thats why I believe the bible is acurate, I have the holly spirit and I can feel him when I pray it say's in the bible His spirit bearith wittness with my spirit ( the children of God) I can't remember where I read it but I will look it up for ya if ya want? Well I know he's real because I feel his presants and It says in the bible to have faith, so I believe in the bible to be accurate Now I do believe if I was God I would get the bible RIGHT! because that's so important, He knew what he was doing and he new the end results, God is all knowing so he would not make a mistake! He just wouldn't go wrong,
Well I don't know how to use this spell check on this site so excuse my terrible spelling! Thanks for listening,
Rebecca


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## MrMortgage

Hahaha, non-believers, LOL so concerned with proving us wrong. Get with it or get over it, you choose.

Heres my issue, we wouldnt of known about Jesus if it wasnt for the bible. We wouldnt of known of his teachings, and about his father (God) without the bible.

So if you dont believe what the bible says, you might as well throw away the whole Jesus thing right? Forget God and forget Jesus because if you dont believe what the bible teaches then certainly you dont believe in Jesus, because the bible explains who Jesus was and what he did.

That's like reading a math book and only learning one mathematical formula, and throwing the rest away because you dont agree with it. Then you find out that, that one math formula you did learn doesnt make sense with out learning the rest of the math formulas.

You cant put God in a box and make him what you want him to be, he is not a product.


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## CECIL

"People have asked me recently what I thought about women priests. I just say 'Hell, that's just priests of 2 different sexes I won't listen to. Look, I appreciate your quaint traditions and superstitions, but I happen to be an enlightened beings who deals directly with the source of life, so I don't really have a need for the middle-men' " - Paraphrased from Bill Hicks.

That said, the bible reflects the over-arching metaphors that humanity has been struggling with for the last 2000 years (Sin, needing a saviour, having to exist within certain guildines and adhere to certain behaviours to be worthy of love). As we reach a time where these metaphors no longer serve us people are starting to remember the true nature of "spirit" or whatever you want to call it.

Jesus was a person. If Jesus could obtain god's infinite love then so can you - and there's no criteria you have to fill to deserve it. The truth is that "god" (or whatever name you chose to give it...) loves every one of us. There's absolutely nothing you can do to change that.

This is essentially what the Gnostics were on about.

The idea of Satan or whatever name you choose to give is traditionally the guardian/master of a supposed dark underworld. We have been taught to fear this underworld as evil and taboo. However, it is only by confronting this underworld and discovering its truths (See - Emerald Tablets of Thoth) that we learn of our true nature.

This is why the bible was put out in its current form. If you want to control people you can't have them running around knowing they are free and can never be controlled by an authority. You can't have them re-establishing a link to their own personal spirituality. So as time passes the controlling hold of this dogma starts to lose its power...


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## MrMortgage

CECIL said:


> "People have asked me recently what I thought about women priests. I just say 'Hell, that's just priests of 2 different sexes I won't listen to. Look, I appreciate your quaint traditions and superstitions, but I happen to be an enlightened beings who deals directly with the source of life, so I don't really have a need for the middle-men' " - Paraphrased from Bill Hicks.
> 
> That said, the bible reflects the over-arching metaphors that humanity has been struggling with for the last 2000 years (Sin, needing a saviour, having to exist within certain guildines and adhere to certain behaviours to be worthy of love). As we reach a time where these metaphors no longer serve us people are starting to remember the true nature of "spirit" or whatever you want to call it.
> 
> Jesus was a person. If Jesus could obtain god's infinite love then so can you - and there's no criteria you have to fill to deserve it. The truth is that "god" (or whatever name you chose to give it...) loves every one of us. There's absolutely nothing you can do to change that.
> 
> This is essentially what the Gnostics were on about.
> 
> The idea of Satan or whatever name you choose to give is traditionally the guardian/master of a supposed dark underworld. We have been taught to fear this underworld as evil and taboo. However, it is only by confronting this underworld and discovering its truths (See - Emerald Tablets of Thoth) that we learn of our true nature.
> 
> This is why the bible was put out in its current form. If you want to control people you can't have them running around knowing they are free and can never be controlled by an authority. You can't have them re-establishing a link to their own personal spirituality. So as time passes the controlling hold of this dogma starts to lose its power...


Here is an example of someone trying to explain the bible that knows nothing about it.


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## ComplicatedFool

"So if you dont believe what the bible says, you might as well throw away the whole Jesus thing right? Forget God and forget Jesus because if you dont believe what the bible teaches then certainly you dont believe in Jesus, because the bible explains who Jesus was and what he did. "

Other than the Bible is a TALE of a name called Yeshua. In the ancient times, literature was symbolical..not factual. So if Jesus walked on water, it meant he didn't really walk on the waters, it meants he was an amzing guy. Besides, why should I believe in the Bible, I believe in what I believe. No book or organization needs to tell me in what to believe.


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## MrMortgage

You are a complicated fool! And I got a secret for ya, your the type of person that God is looking for. I'm a complicated fool myself. God is still using me. You wonder why in the bible that God doesnt pick the most educated people to do great things with. He rarley used rich people with power.

Remember, this isnt our garden we live in, this is God's garden, we just work here.


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## CECIL

From the bible, God didn't pick rich and educated people to do his work because the rich and educated people were romans, who at the time did not believe in the christian god and/or Jesus and had a nasty habit of murdering anyone who did. The people god chose were the poor and un-educated, the people in need of a little faith since they were being oppressed so horribly. That in no way means that educated people have no idea what they are talking about, so please don't use logical fallacies to discredit the arguments of educated people.

Sadly the original message of the bible has now been turned around (read: not only rewritten countless times but CHANGED from what it originally said) and instead of being a liberating force like originally intended, is used to control us.


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## freesong

You are right to name yourself as you have complicated fool. Until you can create yourself or the universe which is and was a miracle. ( His first one or ones) then you are being foolish. I am not meaning to be cruel because I too have been and probably will be foolish because I am human in the unrestored area of me that He is overcoming in me. You are complicated because you were created by God but you are being foolish because you are not believing in your own Father or Creator. You are putting your hands over your eyes to block out his light and love. Why????????? But, only a fool says in his heart, there is no God. :shock:


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## Martinelv

> so concerned with proving us wrong.


 :lol:

I love that. Love it. Do you not realise that the burdon of proof is upon YOU to prove that you're god exists? Ah....the irony. Us heathens can do and say what we like, because we are not trying to prove anything.


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## terri*

> Us heathens can do and say what we like, because we are not trying to prove anything.


Granted.

But why, oh why, do you (and your evil followers :lol: ) feel a need to push "us" poor, ignorant believers into proving it to you. I think I can say this with pretty much assurance... that I am correct...Noone would ever try to convert you. By God, even the most lowly of mental beings should know you're unconvertable. :lol:

I thought people got on ships years ago, knowing they may be killed on the way, to get to another country to practice religious freedom and get away from, from...you know...people like you, my sweet. 8) Which may
not be exactly right, but it's in there somewhere.

Now, I'm off to the Euphoria. Tah. ( or is it ta ? )


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## freesong

Why are we all running from Perfect Love ?He said, I am the way, the truth and the Life, NO ONE goes to the Father but by Me. He didn't say that because He was cruel or wanted to leave anyone out. He said it because it was TRUE> He is the only "enlightened one" for lack of a better definition who really knew God because He was His Son and was with Him from the beginning. Here is another book to read if you are at all interested in the truth behind all of these insinuations from the dark side. Remember, Josh McDowell, Evidence that demands a Verdict Vol. 1 and 2. Mere Christianity C.S. Lewis and now., "The Case For Faith" by Lee Strobel. Have you ever heard of Norman Geisler? Geisler, a prodigious and award-winning author, has written co-authored , or edited more than fifty books. Some of them include: When skeptics ask, When critics ask, When cultists ask. Please don't confuse religion- Man's way to God with relationship God's way to man= Jesus. There is no other way including through a church. It is not on the backs of the popes and elders. They may be used for a while but it is actually by complete Faith and abandonment to Perfect Love= Jesus. He said, You will find Me when you seek me with ALL your heart. Seek and you shall find. Study to show yourself approved. He is Faithful. He is Worthy to be loved. He is waiting for you to forgive others and yourself and learn to accept His yoke of gentle peaceful love. It comes with a price, death to the things of this world and when there is death, there appears to be some suffering but when you finally let go........ He inhabits the Praises of His people.  God bless, freesong


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## Martinelv

> But why, oh why, do you (and your evil followers ) feel a need to push "us" poor, ignorant believers into proving it to you.


Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....

I think it is perfectly reasonable to ask for proof when someone is blabbering on about something for which there is no (none/zip/ditto) proof about. If someone came on here and started talking about their pet Zebra, called Peter, who is orange and can fly, wouldn't you ask for a litte, just a tiny piece of proof before accepting it? Do you cross the road without looking? Because that is what the religious, in effect, are doing.

I can't remember how many times I've said this. I am NOT trying to 'convert' (that is completely the wrong word because..) anyone to Atheism, because.......DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP BREATH, atheism is.......drum roll.......a............lack............of....................theism. A-THEISM. LACK-OF-THEISM. THAT'S ALL! NOTHING ELSE!!

Regarding freedom of religion, I'm all for it!! I have absolutely no problem with an individuals personal faith, be it Christian (whatever flavour), Islam (whatever flavour), Hindu, Shintu, Paganism.....whatever. I don't care. I'm happy for them. Perhaps even a little jealous. I care about a person's individual faith about as much as I do about their sex lives, whether they are into S&M, leather, gay, bi, tooting poppers and gimp masks. Who cares? It's none of my business.

So I'm sorry if you feel 'pushed', but....oh forget it. I'm losing the will to live. But I still love you Terri*.


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## terri*

My dear, you simply must stop getting yourself worked into such a lather. Now go lie down and think pretty thoughts.

( Now what I really don't believe is your not caring about the S&M and leather stuff. :lol: )

And I know -



> atheism is.......drum roll.......a............lack............of....................theism. A-THEISM. LACK-OF-THEISM.


Okay, so, kiss, kiss.


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## terri*

I was just about to start vacuuming and thought about needing to
tell you to try putting a cool, wet cloth to your head. It may keep 
those veins on your forehead from bulging so.



> I'm losing the will to live.


Mustn't say...even in jest. Negative energy. Not good for you.

Now, I'm off to be the mere housewife that I am.

terri*


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## Martinelv

It's just a figure of speech my love. Worry ye not.

And I'm sure there is nothing 'mere' about being a housewife.

Martin.x


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## Epiphany

It's funny you know...ever since we first started having scripture / religious studies in primary school (from around the age of 8 or so) I have always thought of the bible as a book written about a giant game of chinese whispers. I have never been able to shake that analogy.

When guys go on a fishing trip and come back telling everyone about the size of the humungous fish they caught, the size of that fish and the dramatics of the story fluctuate greatly...in the space of a few hours that fish has gone from being thiiiiiisssssss big to thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiisssssssssssssssss bigggggggggg.

How is it that so many of you have complete faith in the stories we collectively know as the bible without recognising the possibility that these little tales have become so grandious due to the telling and retelling over the many many many years since all these "events" took place?

I just have never been able to get my head around the fact that it is all supposed to be "real".

Sure, the bible is a great bit of light weekend reading, and hey if you want to read something that will give you nightmares for weeks on end then please, everyone, read the Book of Revelations. Perhaps the most frightening account of "armageddon" you could ever hope to lay your eyes on.

Homeskooled...I know you mentioned in one of your posts who it was who wrote Revelations (sorry, I'll have to admit I'm too lazy to go back and find out who it was). Perhaps he should have laid off the opium for a while. Crazyness...he rivals Stephen King's horror novels with some of that stuff. It makes God sound like Hitler!!!

I am not trying to force my beliefs (or lack thereof) onto anyone...I have no desire to convince someone they are "wrong" as I am not convinced myself that I am "right".

In fact I am in a way jealous of the levels of faith that some of you have. It would be comforting to believe so strongly in something you "know" within yourself to be "real". I've never been able to reach that level of total conviction. :?


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## terri*

> I think it is perfectly reasonable to ask for proof when someone is blabbering on about something for which there is no (none/zip/ditto) proof about.


But this _is_ the Religious section of the board where it seems to me
people should be able to come and talk about their "pie in the sky", silly,
fable believing ideas without someone who doesn't believe in this nonsense coming down and having episodic hissy fits about the whole
dadgum thing. ( I hit the period key real hard at the end of that long
rambly sentence. :? ) I just don't understand that.

Hey, did I ever tell you my husband is an athiest? Yep. You want to know
something funny, but kind of sad? I had never been around anyone that didn't believe. Never even thought to ask him the question.
Can you believe I lived at one point in a world so small? 
Well, I'm sure you can, :lol: 
but I can't believe that about myself all these years later

I do want to say that I believe in the gest of the Bible. That it is comprised of stories told around some truths. That there are tales within The Tale. I am not of any certain religion, though I have been in the past.
My beliefs do not necessarily stand me in good steed with other religious 
people. But that's okay with me, too. I'm okay with the fact someone believes or they don't believe.

So basically...
I just believe. And on _that_ I stand strong.

That all being said, I leave the religious section to the religious and the non-believers. It's always interesting to come to this section and read everyone's thoughts.

terri*


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## Martinelv

> But this is the Religious section of the board where it seems to me
> people should be able to come and talk about their "pie in the sky", silly,
> fable believing ideas without someone who doesn't believe in this nonsense coming down and having episodic hissy fits about the whole
> dadgum thing.


Quite true Terri*. They can say whatever they want. But you seem to have forgotten that this is also a mental health forum. And mental health problems and religion, as is born out time and time again, do not mix.

Do I not have the right to disagree? Ask for clarification? Besides, if someone has an utterly unshakable faith, what does it matter to them what I say?

I'm not stupid. I know that because I am an Atheist, and because of my character, I do understand my intentions.


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## terri*

> I'm not stupid.


Who said you were??? I'll smack 'em down! :twisted:

Good Lord, Martini, I hope I didn't get you all rattled.

And I certainly didn't mean to imply anything about your 
character...except for the fact that you certainly are one.

:roll:

Holy Smokes, you're such a fussy little thing. 8)

But yet, but yet...you remain adorable.

I leave you with all your rights intact.

terri.x


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## terri*

hit the damn button twice :?


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## terri*

refreshed and hit the damn button a third time.


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## Martinelv

:roll:

Technology + Women / Sciattica Ridden Ass = Disaster.

How is your rear? I haven't asked in a while.

No, you didn't get me rattled. In fact, I forgot I was talking to you. I just go 'off on one', as you know.

Martin.x


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## terri*

How very kind of you to mention my *.

I find injections and darvocet keep me
at a very tolerable pain level. Unfortunately,
they tend to make me post too much in the 
religious section. :shock:

Drugs...just say no. :lol:


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## sunyata samsara

SillyPutty said:


> What?
> 
> All four gospels, Mathew,Mark, Luke and John are all first hand accounts, eye witnesses.


lol no

its funny i know more about your religion than you and im an atheist. lulz


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