# What actually causes DP?



## Justinian585 (Dec 4, 2012)

I don't mean what triggers it, because we all know that by now. I mean, what in the body actually causes DP? Some say it's a natural response to anxiety. Some say it's a chemical imbalance. Some say it's something spiritual. What's the truth? Help me understand this. I'm confused. It just seems to be so strange and misunderstood, even by professionals.


----------



## GroupHug (Jul 6, 2012)

woops.


----------



## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Susto said:


> This is already very deep and subtle, you have no idea. These people just are not aware they have suffered, they are in DENIAL, that's why they are DPd now.
> 
> I'm 100% sure
> 
> ...


Sorry Susto but that's really not true.

Today I was doing work with a therapist and went through practically my whole life. We couldn't find any significant emotional abuse.

The only shit I went through was from other so called 'friends', but even then - most of this stuff is completely normal. There are loads of kids who grow up and don't experience depersonalisation despite a traumatic childhood. It's going to be tough for you and Fearless to admit this but your solution isn't a one size fits all solution.


----------



## konstantine02 (Mar 12, 2009)

Susto said:


> I don't know what you understand by traumatic childhood.
> 
> My childhood was great is most of it, no one would say I suffered emotional abuse. Only me, in my intimacy, knew what I was hidding. And until a few months ago I had not even considered it to have caused so much pain to myself.
> 
> You have no idea how subtle attitudes of a parent can cause a giant impact in a sensitive child. this-shit-is-complex


I am currently learning what is meant by "trauma" and Susto hit the nail on the head. I have a therapist who is familiar/studies/focuses on dissociative disorders and we have been working on trauma therapy. For myself, I have a very traumatic past, I have things I can pinpoint and be like, whoa this affected me such and such way. However, those things AREN'T actually causing the full blown DP episode. Emotional abuse doesn't have to be a verbal attack like "oh you're stupid kid, you suck, blah blah." It's subtle little things that people with our attachment style (disorganized) or in other words...a more sensitive way of taking things in...react. My whole life I spent time sugarcoating the idea that my mom was a great single parent and yadda yadda and blamed my emotional issues on a missing father figure. In reality, yes the missing father thing is quite traumatic, but my relationship with my mom has led me to this DPed point in my life. For instance, my mom would flip her shit, or I would know what would make her mad...maybe I didn't put the dishes away, or I jumped on a piece of furniture, or whatever, and when she chewed me out (like most parents would) my reaction was to hide in my room, cry, be depressed, whatever and would eventually repress the feelings I felt about myself and who I was because of my sensitivity to the way she would bring things up. So no she wasn't telling me to fuck off or I was a horrible kid, but just the way she reacted to things, made me have a disorganized response, thus leading to these repressed emotions I didn't know I had. You really have to look beyond the surface, even if it's just minuscule things and see how it really affected you. Once you scratch the surface and release these feelings, you will begin to heal. You just need to figure out a way to really sit down and focus and figure out what led you to the repressed/defense mechanism/DP, etc.


----------



## Justinian585 (Dec 4, 2012)

As I've been recovering, I'm starting to think that this DP/DR stuff is simply all in our heads. I'm beginning to realize that it's just overthinking. Haven't we all had moments where we are occupied and almost forget that we even have DP for a few minutes? Even a few hours? People who have recovered completely always point out distraction as the key. Why do you think that is? Because you have to force yourself not to dwell on depersonalization. All it is seems to be overthinking about your physical being, whether it be mental health or whatever. You feel disconnected because you are absorbed in your thoughts and not your surroundings like you were before. Personally, I only get the visual symptoms that people describe when I _think_ I have them. I can literally make myself feel DP stronger just by concentrating on it. For example, if I stare at the wall and tell myself it's moving, I will begin to feel weird. If I stare off into space and look directly ahead but focus on my hand, I can feel that out of body thing. That's how I proved to myself that DP is ALL in your head. You simply have to change the way you think, which I understand is hard but it can be done very quickly if you keep a positive mindset and take steps to improve your life outside of just curing DP. I encourage everyone to keep doing the things they love. Stay away from drugs and alcohol, at least for now. That shit is poison and is how many of us got DP in the first place. I truly feel like I'm 3/4 of the way there just by believing in recovery, keeping a positive mindset and living healthier....


----------



## Justinian585 (Dec 4, 2012)

Susto said:


> if you are so convinced of the truth, why do you create this topic anyway?
> 
> In the end all you doing is looking for reassurance and trying to find a easy cure.
> 
> Been there, done that.


To help others maybe? Sure, some of it is reassurance on my part, but no that's not why I created this topic. I was interested to see if there was an actual medical explanation that could tell me DP's effects on the brain. Apparently that is not something available right now.

And your last sentence is precisely why the people who have recovered completely have told me to leave this site. You are giving negative implications that people on this site who are hitting rock bottom don't need to read right now. This site is shit for those people. That's how people get trapped in negative thoughts, which makes DP 10x worse.


----------



## Guest (Jan 5, 2013)

One of the best books on the research into this illess is *Depersonalization: A New Look At A Neglected Syndrome* by Dr. Mauricio Sierra who is probably the top individual researching DP/DR for the past 20+ years. It is a medical textbook, not a self-help book.

There is no clear answer as to the cause. But as with all science/medicine/neurology, etc. time reveals greater understanding.

I will repeat again, but it gets tiresome. DP/DR can occur in the following:
1. Epilepsy

2. Migraine

3. Stroke

4. Serious head trauma from a horrific automobile accident or other serious trauma to the skull/brain.

5. Ingestion of various medications including antibiotics, withdrawal from antidepressants (when the individual had NO DP/DR to begin with), and of course ingestion of various rec drugs, even COFFEE.

6. Then in terms of specifically "psychiatric" terms -- and that is STILL neurology -- panic is a major factor, anxiety, etc. Also, there seems to be a correlation between certain VERBAL abuse and "gaslighting" that can lead to this as it causes increased confusion and anxiety in a child and can alter brain circuitry (and I'm saying this is LAYPERSON terms).

@2% of the world population is believed to have CHRONIC DPD or DP that causes major interference with social and occupational functioning. The rest have episodes that go into remission and can return in times of stress, or in times of NO stress. Some respond excellently to medicaitons and the DP/DR go away. For some it simply fades away with time for no good reason.

Temperament, genetics, environment -- many things can be cited as a cause, but these theories do not fit every case.

Consider this: Deja-Vu. MANY people have experienced this ... a good % of the population in the world. It is not understood at all, and generally never poses a long term problem. It is a PERCEPTUAL DISTORTION -- a bit of a glitch -- that resolves itself. However, with deja vu, there is a very small group of people who get STUCK in Deja Vu. Why? It is not understood. And this includes individuals who are blind. Individuals who are blind can experience DP/DR as well.

And I always find it fascinating, but there is (to the best of anyone's knowledge) a case of an individual born blind who also develops schizoprhenia. So whatever genetic defect that caused the blindness actually "protects" the individual from schzophrenia.

Also, MANY people, including my psychiatrist and my therapist, have experienced depersonalization when very exhausted, under stress, traveling across many time zones. My therapist never has found the experience unpleasant. My psychiatrist HAS found it unpleasant. He knows exactly what I'm talking about and is astounded that it doesn't go away for me. Ever.

Also, re: abuse .... there are many schools of thought, but the psychoanalytic camp (which is older -- Freudian, etc.) tends to clash with the psychiatric camp, which clashes with the neurology camp.

I KNOW I came from abuse. Serious verbal abuse and neglect. I have not forgotten any of it. Therapy helped me see that I am not "the evil seed" I was told I was, and that I was actually the sane one in my "family" -- just a mother and father. In my case chronicity is attributed to my temperament (sensitive), the TYPE of abuse, the LENGTH of abuse, NO SUPPORT system ... and these things can alter brain pathways and ways of reacting to things.

Most people remember abuse, bad things. Many do not wish to THINK about it or discuss it. There is a 50 year old man in my depression group who still describes severe physical abuse at the hands of his father as "those physical events." He STILL finds it difficult to think about it, talk about it, and he has even said, "I don't like to talk ill of the dead." He is a spiritual man. His abusive father was a minister. On top of ALL of that he does not have DP. He does however suffer from major depression.

Last, many who have DP/DR (and this is true in my case) may have numerous relatives who have other mental illnesses. There can be a tendency to inherit a variety of problems. My father was a hoarder/clutterer -- extremely anxious. My mother was probably Borderline or Narcissist and had brief episodes of psychosis. My extended family (Aunt I knew, and cousins) have/had -- depression, schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder.

This is very complicated. And no all doctors aren't "stupid." OMG. On the other hand I've run into a lot of unsavory doctors of ALL kinds.

This is a big mystery. Just as the brain and consciousness itseslf is a mystery.


----------



## Guest (Jan 5, 2013)

Yes, tl:dr what can I say, lol?


----------



## RichUK (Oct 6, 2011)

Happiness, sadness, anger, fear bascally all emotions are psychological and physiological. You think and feel and at the same time chemicals in the brain and body change. With some people the change is greater than others. So some people will experience emotions stronger than others. From what I have read everyone can experience DP/DR if exposed to fear or other stresses. So it seems that DP/DR are normal reactions caused by psychological and physiological changes.


----------



## Guest (Jan 5, 2013)

Susto said:


> psychiatry stopped evolving since Jung ("_It is now just about fifty years since I became convinced, through practical experience, that schizophrenic disturbances could be treated and cured by psychological means. I found that, with respect to the treatment, the schizophrenic patient behaves no differently from the neurotic_"). Nowadays is a soulless market to make money from disturbed people
> 
> "mental illnessess" are not genetically inherited, they are emotionally passed from generation to generation


Susto, it is very unfortunate that you believe this. Research into genetics and epigenetics has proven that certain individuals inherit mental illness, or I'd rather say "brain disorders" ... bipolar and depression run in families. And for example bipolar may run for generations, yet skip some individuals but strike a good bit of a family. Schizophrenia is a known medical disorder.

If you choose to inform yourself you will find this is a fact.
I know this from extensive study and reading. I know this from interacting with mentally ill individuals on a regular basis as an advocate and as a patient. I don't have just DP/DR, I was anxious and depressed since I was a child. I was diagnosed with all three when I was 15 in 1975.

Visit my website for my story which includes resources, books, links, a blog, etc. http://www.dreamchild.net

Also, I am currently studying Public Health (it will take me another 50 years, but I hope to obtain a Master's in that.) In coursework, today, at leading universities/hospitals/research facilities there is NO debate on the medical nature of most mental illness.

See, Mental Health America, National Alliance on Mental Illness, The World Health Organization, etc., etc.

And it's interesting that you completely ignore the fact that DP/DR episodes occur during seizure auras, migraine auras, and stroke. Read Jill Bolte Taylor's book, "My Stroke of Insight" -- a neuroscientist who had a stroke wherein she describes to a "t" a horrific epsiode of DP/DR. She was not mentally ill in any way before the stroke, nor is she now. She is virtually fully recovered. Never had DP before, hasn't had it since. She spent months unable to MOVE or remember things.

Many have no knowledge of brain disorders. I meet every Thursday with my support group of individuals who have lived life-long with brain disorders. You would never know who they are (save one individual is rather manic a lot of the time -- bipolar) as they keep their illness a secret. Not everyone in my group was abused. Some came from loving supportive families.

Ignorance is bliss. And the internet is certainly a lousy way to learn about any topic.
I have a Bachelors degree from the 1980s wherein I took some psychology courses and was also required to go to one of the last State Mental Hospitals in this state. I interacted with mentally ill individuals there for a month -- part of my coursework. I have an MA in film. I wish to get an MA in Public Health and am trying, though it is difficult, to be involved in the production of documentaries on mental illness. Or perhaps public service announcements.

This does not mean that TALK THERAPY or CBT or DBT is not Critical in helping ANYONE.

You must understand what is called the Stres-Diathesis model. Many factors come together to create "the perfect storm." In your assessment you would attribute post-partum depression, Tourette's syndrome, Alzheimer's, etc. to how one was raised. Much of psychiatry as the years progress will be subsumed under neurology, but the treatments will be tailored to individuals. And these treatments will be more advanced. But this will be some 50 years in the future, IDK. No one seems to have taken a high school course in biology or anatomy to understand the brain. I have also taken college level courses in molecular cell biology.

Also, Freud. He may have been very intelligent and is "the father of psychiatry" but he was also abusive to his female patients, FORCING them to claim they experienced abuse, then he switched his theory to ALL women experiened the Oedipus Complex. However he also said that in the future, psychiatric disorders would be explained in medical terms. He was first a doctor. Medicine in his time had no understanding of genetics, epigenetics, brain funtion on complex machines such as CAT, PET, fMRI, SPECT, etc.

Educate yourself. And also check out Active Minds. Young people on Uni campus' reaching out to uni students on the brink of suicide due to brain disorders they are ashamed to seek help for.

http://www.activeminds.org

I am astounded at the ignorance re: all of the sciences. Some people still don't believe we have landed on the moon, not to mention that we have traveled in outer space. It is indeed a hopeless discussion if someone refussees to read, study, interact with others, and learn from experts. There are debates in science, all the answers are not known, but that is true about most areas of study, not just medicine.


----------



## Guest (Jan 5, 2013)

You do know there was a time when individuals were convinced the world was flat. If you quoted them today it would obviously be completely irrelevant. We have much to learn from Freud and Jung and many other scientists of the past. But much of we know about physics ... all of the sciences is out of date the moment it is published. We will never stop learning new things. I wish your mind was more open.

Also, individuals with DP/DR don't necessarily have higher intelligence. It strikes all manner of individuals regardless of race, creed, intelligence, social status, rich/poor, etc.


----------



## Ame Chan (Nov 16, 2010)

I read a while ago that when the brain gets anxious, it goes really fast and once it reaches its maximum anxiety and it gets too much, the brain slows down in other aspects to make up for it, and the time it takes to process information (reality) gets a delay. That's what makes the DP


----------



## Guest (Jan 5, 2013)

Susto said:


> yet, as you have so much studied, they cant definitively PROVE that schizophrenia is a "medical disorder". they can't prove anything. I think it's utter bullshit and waste of time.
> 
> As for stroke/seizures etc, I don't believe it's exactly the same as DPd, just can't be.
> 
> ...


Very unfortunate that you chooe to remain ignorant. It is proven that schizophrenia is a brain disorder, just as is autism and schizoaffective, and other disorders -- this does not take away the concept of individuality or soul or an ability to contribute to society. What does this have to do with captialism. Is Parkinson's not a brain disorder? I also am a cancer survivor. I am called a survivor as there is no cure.


----------



## Guest (Jan 5, 2013)

Look at Jill Bolte Taylor's book, you can get it out of the library ... read the Chapter "The Morning of the Stroke" ... I think you would have a clearer understanding. My sense is you will never read the book or any excellent book on neurology, particularly by the best neurologists Oliver Sacks and V.S. Ramachandran.

Education has gone to Hell in this country as well. Chapter 4, Page 37, *My Stroke of Insight.* It is a wonderful insightful work re: the brain as well. An easy read, as are Sacks and Ramachandran. And I also believe in Mindfullness. I study Thich Nhat Hahn's work on Zen Buddhism so I look at Eastern and Western medicine. I have a doctor friend who is an M.D. Western trained physcian with specialized training in coronary artery disease. But he is also an expert in acupuncture. He used to practice on his friends including me, lol! He has a very balanced view ... the limits of both forms of medicine. And he is also a very spiritual man and approaches his patients holistically. It took him 35 years of study, and he continues to study both Western and Eastern medicine.

When you have read up on these topics, or taken a college level class, maybe some of this will sink in.


----------



## Guest (Jan 5, 2013)

I have given endless links to resources on this site that no one reads -- often because they are honestly too lazy to take a look. Take an abnormal psych class at a college/uni.

Go to http://www.nami.org to get general information on brain disorders. Go to http://www.bringchange2mind.org

Go to PubMed and Google Scholar to find articles up the wazoo on current research. Read CURRENT articles from peer reviewed journals. If you choose to remain ignorant, and are completely unaware of this FACT, I just give up.

Also, as I said, look around my site. I have books, links, information, articles.

Carry on. I can't do research for you. I have posted information on this site endlessly, and blogged about it. The main response is "TLR" ... well, good luck going to university or learning a trade. You need to READ, you need to learn from real experience. There is no greater teacher than experience, going into the trenches, learning from others. What a waste. Our stupid education system at work as well. Not the same at my private school, and my university. Such a damned pity.


----------



## tnasty2 (Aug 12, 2012)

I don't understand why chronic dp is not much much more common if emotional abuse and disorganized attachment are the primary causes.


----------



## adado113 (Dec 28, 2012)

In my case, I don't understand the notion that this is some how deeply rooted in psychological trauma resulting from relationships growing up. My parents/family are gentle, caring people. The only real emotional abuse I've ever experienced has been the abuse I've inflicted on myself via depression and anxiety/being too hard on myself. I also have Lyme disease, which I know often causes dp feelings, and I've also. Isn't this more of a case to case thing?


----------



## Guest (Jan 5, 2013)

http://www.dreamchild.net/Advocate/Advocate/links.html Read the links on my website. NARSAD is also valuable. The PubMed link is also a source of medical/research articles. Plug in schizophrenia and you will find THOUSANDS of articles on brain research. I can't print them out here! And again, when I do, I get attacked for being too detailed in a resonse. Well, I can't summarize a 200 page book in three words either!


----------



## Guest (Jan 5, 2013)

Susto said:


> Dreamer, I have looked at countless articles about schizophrenia, and all I see is that there are evidences of brain abnormality, but the *CAUSES* of them are still unclear


CAUSE is unclear. Yes. But that doesn't mean they haven't found these are MEDICAL/NEUROLOGICAL DISORDERS. You are also not thinking like a student. However, if a brain is significanly mal-formed, and this is shown on any number of scans ... you absolutely cannot tell me that there is no reason for the disorder. If you look at the brain of an individual with schizoprhenia there are differences in the very grey matter as it shows up on various machines, just as you can see when someone is having a seizure an EEG machine can register it. My mother had Alzheimers. Both her CAT scan, AND an EEG was able to see brain degeneration.

You simply don't have an open mind. And you haven't researched. And I don't believe you have read medical articles or looked at any of my links. Quite obviousl.

Also, there are CHILDREN BORN WITH SCHIZOPHRENIA. It might help if you a PARENT of a child with a brain disorder.

Done.


----------



## Guest (Jan 5, 2013)

Well, as far as I'm concerned, anyone who doesn't understand the concept "perceptual distorition" -- which includes jamais vu and deja vu ... yes, it's a hopeless discussion. I'm discussing schizophrenia as it is so CLEARLY proven to be medical that if someone doesn't believe that, then they may as well not believe that the earth rotates on it's own axis -- the sun does not orbit the earth.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed
I simply plugged in "schizophrenia causes" and came up with over 35,000 articles. Here is ONE. This is from a journal on Molecular Biology, and simply the abstract. I'd gather you don't subscribe to full PubMed articles.

There are also TONS of autobiographies coming out by individuals who have battled with schizoprhenia. A great one is by Elyn Saks who happens to be an attorney and a professor of law who was considered a hopeless case. It is called "The Center Cannot Hold." She has been assisted by medication and therapy, but cannot function without her medication. My first boyfriend in college, a wonderful man I wanted to marry, developed schizoprhenia. His mother also had schizophrenia. That risk is already known. Also, there can be twins born into the same familly -- one can develop schizophrenia and the other never develops schizophrenia or any other mental illness. I know a woman who has no mental illness who has two brothers who have schizophrenia. One lives in a group home, the other on the street.

*Expert Rev Mol Med.* _*2011 Jul 28*_;13:e25. doi: 10.1017/S1462399411001955.
_*Progress in defining the biological causes of schizophrenia.*_
_Pickard B._

Source
Strathclyde Institute of Pharmacy and Biomedical Sciences (SIPBS), University of Strathclyde, Glasgow, UK.
[email protected]

Abstract
Schizophrenia is a common mental illness resulting from a complex interplay of genetic and environmental risk factors. Establishing its primary molecular and cellular aetiopathologies has proved difficult. However, this is a vital step towards the rational development of useful disease biomarkers and new therapeutic strategies.

The advent and large-scale application of genomic, transcriptomic, proteomic and metabolomic technologies are generating data sets required to achieve this goal. This discovery phase, typified by its objective and hypothesis-free approach, is described in the first part of the review.

*The accumulating biological information, when viewed as a whole, reveals a number of biological process and subcellular locations that contribute to schizophrenia causation. The data also show that each technique targets different aspects of central nervous system function in the disease state.*

In the second part of the review, key schizophrenia candidate genes are discussed more fully.

Two higher-order processes - adult neurogenesis and inflammation - that appear to have pathological relevance are also described in detail. Finally, three areas where progress would have a large impact on schizophrenia biology are discussed: deducing the causes of schizophrenia in the individual, explaining the phenomenon of cross-disorder risk factors, and distinguishing causative disease factors from those that are reactive or compensatory.
PMID:
21794196
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Also, DP/DR come with other mental disorders. Nothing exists in a vacuum.

We do not know what causes many cancers though in some cases risk factors can be determined,  and yet we know it is a medical disorder. Also, if you have brain cancer your personality can change, if you have dementia your personality can change, if you are struck seriously in the head your personality can change -- so psychiatry, psychology and neurology are all one. AIDS was first believed only to occur in gay men and was associated with "poppers" -- it was later found to be an immune disorder transferred through blood products. AIDS was a death sentence in the 1980s. It is now treatable and many can live years. When a child and blood transfusion patients of all sexes and ages developed AIDS (used to be called GRID), someone finally stood up and took notice.

Whoever said that a friend who had schizophrenia was an idiot, is ... and I don't like to say this .... a true idiot.


----------



## Guest (Jan 5, 2013)

*National Institute of Mental Health -- "What Causes Schizophrenia"*
http://www.nimh.nih....zophrenia.shtml

What causes schizophrenia?
Experts think schizophrenia is caused by several factors.

*"Genes and environment.* Scientists have long known that *schizophrenia runs in families. The illness occurs in 1 percent of the general population, but it occurs in 10 percent of people who have a first-degree relative with the disorder, such as a parent, brother, or sister. People who have second-degree relatives (aunts, uncles, grandparents, or cousins) with the disease also develop schizophrenia more often than the general population. The risk is highest for an identical twin of a person with schizophrenia. He or she has a 40 to 65 percent chance of developing the disorder.15*

We inherit our genes from both parents. Scientists believe several genes are associated with an increased risk of schizophrenia, but that no gene causes the disease by itself.16 In fact, recent research has found that *people with schizophrenia tend to have higher rates of rare genetic mutations. These genetic differences involve hundreds of different genes and probably disrupt brain development.17*

Other recent studies suggest that schizophrenia may result in part when a certain gene that is key to making important brain chemicals malfunctions. This problem may affect the part of the brain involved in developing higher functioning skills.18 Research into this gene is ongoing, so it is not yet possible to use the genetic information to predict who will develop the disease.

Despite this, tests that scan a person's genes can be bought without a prescription or a health professional's advice. Ads for the tests suggest that with a saliva sample, a company can determine if a client is at risk for developing specific diseases, including schizophrenia. However, scientists don't yet know all of the gene variations that contribute to schizophrenia. Those that are known raise the risk only by very small amounts. Therefore, these "genome scans" are unlikely to provide a complete picture of a person's risk for developing a mental disorder like schizophrenia.
In addition, it probably takes more than genes to cause the disorder. *Scientists think interactions between genes and the environment are necessary for schizophrenia to develop. Many environmental factors may be involved, such as exposure to viruses or malnutrition before birth, problems during birth, and other not yet known psychosocial factors.*

*Scientists are learning more about brain chemistry and its link to schizophrenia.*
Different brain chemistry and structure. Scientists think that an imbalance in the complex, interrelated chemical reactions of the brain involving the neurotransmitters dopamine and glutamate, and possibly others, plays a role in schizophrenia. Neurotransmitters are substances that allow brain cells to communicate with each other. Scientists are learning more about brain chemistry and its link to schizophrenia.

Also, in small ways the brains of people with schizophrenia look different than those of healthy people. For example, fluid-filled cavities at the center of the brain, called ventricles, are larger in some people with schizophrenia. The brains of people with the illness also tend to have less gray matter, and some areas of the brain may have less or more activity.

Studies of brain tissue after death also have revealed differences in the brains of people with schizophrenia. Scientists found small changes in the distribution or characteristics of brain cells that likely occurred before birth.3 Some experts think problems during brain development before birth may lead to faulty connections.

The problem may not show up in a person until puberty. The brain undergoes major changes during puberty, and these changes could trigger psychotic symptoms. Scientists have learned a lot about schizophrenia, but more research is needed to help explain how it develops.
Scientists have learned a lot about schizophrenia, but more research is needed to help explain how it develops."

--------------------------------------
This is written in very simple layperson terms. Really talk with someone who has schizophrenia, who hallucinates, who cannot think logically -- some have great insight, others do not. If you do not have the heart to step into someone else's shoes, there is no hope.

And no, I am not refusing to accept responsibility, but there are indeed individuals with chronic DP/DR who have never been abused. I also never took a rec drug in my life. I also have clinical depression, GAD and chronic DP/DR. I am still ME underneath all this crap and am still working through things in therapy. Don't be insulting.

I'm so tired of this place.
No communication. No sense of THINKING. I originally believed my condition was solely caused by my abuse. I have come to see it may be a combination of a medical disorder AND abuse, or I may have ended up being a resilient kid with NO illness whatsoever.


----------



## inferentialpolice (Nov 26, 2012)

I think the discussion would be helped if it were restricted to the following:

1) People for whom DP and dissociative symptoms exists after other organic and behavioral causes are excluded. EG, symptoms that can't in the particular person's case be explained by physical disease (for example brain lesions), stroke, injury,) or which occurs only DURING use of drugs or alcohol.
2) People for whom their Schizophrenia symptoms improve when treated with dissociation informed therapy. (A good example are the significant number of schiz diagnosed folks whose symptoms improve following the Hearing Voices protocol of treatment, which is really just dissociative disorder therapy) Studies do point to a meaningful percentage general outpatient Schiz population being incorrectly diagnosed and who instead are really dissociative disordered, even higher for the inpatient population.

BY restricting the cases being discussed here to those that meet 1 and 2 above, I believe there can be more general agreement on probable "cause".


----------



## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Well when I was younger I routinely hit my head on things, but thats pretty normal and I didn't get DP till I was 19 anyway.


----------



## RichUK (Oct 6, 2011)

What do you mean looking at my hand?


----------



## Guest (Jan 6, 2013)

Huggy Bear said:


> To think that DP is a medical disorder like a stroke or a heart attack is demented. After all, DP can appear and disappear again within a split second. In my case, I know that my DP is purely due to psychological, i.e. environmental factors.
> 
> *Maybe I have a genetic predisposition to dissociate because of mental stress. But so what? Without the negative external stimulus, DP would not have been triggered in the first place.*


Dementia is a medical disorder, lol. So I am demented then. How lovely.

You just described the scenario -- predisposition and enviornmental factors. Stress-Diathesis that is the model for all medical illness.

Example:
1. Individual smokes cigarettes all his life -- develops lung cancer *[clear causality]*
2. Individual smokes cigarettes all his life -- NEVER develops lung cancer *[environmental toxin seems to have no cause in such a case]*
3. Individual NEVER smokes cigarettes all his life -- DEVELOPS lung cancer *[clear genetic predisposition or exposure to another toxin]*
4. Individual NEVER smokes cigarettes all his life -- NEVER develops lung cancer *[fortuanate individual, lol]*

And the fact that DP/DR can come and go would be best defined as remission, and in some cases a full cure. Many illnesses go into remission and return -- polio, cancer, as examples. You are using MY logic.

I believe I had a genetic predisposition to dissociate -- and note, this is on a scale ... say 1-10. Maybe I have a higher or lower predisposition to dissociation than you do. Then add stress of all types -- abuse, a bad drug experience, an ANTIBIOTIC (this is documented). The end result is DP/DR that is either mild to severe, interferes more or less with life, is chronic or comes and goes, etc. Many individuals obviously have NO predisposition to dissociate under stress. And they don't. Many people don't know what the Hell DP/DR is.

Also, chronic anxiety can indeed change the neural pathways in the brain. It is reinforcing. And some have more control than others. Some have better support systems. I had NO family, only the abuse and neglect from that family. Love and support can often make things easier, sometimes it cannot help at all.

Finally, there ARE individuals on this board or who have come and gone, who had NO discernable cause for their chronic DP/DR. NONE. And the argument here then is that "there had to be abuse that the individual isn't facing." That is NOT TRUE.

The fear we all have, about many things, is that we have more control than not over the cards we are dealt. What we can do if we have DP/DR is find ALL the tools we can use to make ourselves feel better. Many different methods can help. For me, medication, therapy, DBT, working, yoga and such have all helped. But it is a long journey.

The thing with schizophrenia I use as a very clear proven example of a strong biological basis to what we call a "mental illness." I would call it a neurological illness. Bipolar is also known to run rampant in families. Also another good autobiography about bipolar is "An Unquiet Mind" by Kaye Redfield Jamison, about her lifelong experience with bipolar. She is not cured. She CONTROLS her illness, she is not cured, and must be aware of when she is getting a new episode of mania or falling into depression and seek help, or see what she is doing to make things worse (not sleeping enough, etc.)

This is also true with AIDS. Some individuals (a small group) contracted HIV and have never shown signs of AIDS. These individuals are a rarity and are studied to find a potential AIDS cure. They have some ability to fight off the virus -- something we do not understand. Also, individuals with AIDS these days CONTROL their illness. Without their medication they become sick again. But their immune systems are supressed.

Science has yet to figure out why a very small percentage of the population is IMMUNE to AIDS even if they are infected with the HI virus. There is an answer somewhere, it just hasn't been figured. 

We are actually talking about the same thing. I think the worst thing is to have a problem with one's brain function. This frightens people. But it shouldn't keep us from trying to understand the full picture. And why does the percentage of chronic DP/DR remain relatively constant worldwide (as studied in developed countries)? Statistics also illustrate the potential any one individual has for developing a particular illness. If we account for ALL individuals who are abused who DON'T have DP/DR ... we have to understand WHY?

Life is full of stress, for all people.
And it is my POV, which I could also back up, but don't have the time, that "repression of emotions or memories" is not true. Despite my DP/DR I HAVE emotions. I cry -- a lot. I laugh. Some days are better than others. But my personality is also one of a more negative thinker. I have been that way since a child -- as far back as I can recall I saw sadness in life and felt hopeless about things -- as far back as I can recall. It is WORK for me to improve my attitude. For me, the best way is practice, getting a sane POV from my therapist, etc.

Also, to prove medicine has changed, both of my parents were doctors. My father a surgeon who died in 1990 was stunned when he witnessed heart transplants. When he went to Harvard medical school in the 1930s that would have been considered IMPOSSIBLE. Also, most individuals with lung cancer died then -- I think 50%. He operated on them. Chemotherapy used to kill people. Survival from many cancers is MUCH improved since then as well.


----------



## Guest (Jan 6, 2013)

I just wish people here would take some courses (good courses) on the workings of the brain, the mind, consciousness. And I wish people here would reach out and obsesrve and speak with individuals who have other mental illnesses or "brain disorders" to understand how complex we are as humans. And to have a heart. To have empathy. To work towards solutions. I wish for this every day.


----------



## Guest (Jan 6, 2013)

And thank you Susto for your comment. So we can amicably agree to disagree.


----------



## Linguos (Jan 12, 2012)

Funny story. Of all the people who have overcome DP and can supply a systematic reason why, those systems always conform. My symptoms remained unchained for 4.5 years until about 6 months ago when I began to follow the proposed system of these peoples beginning with Harris Harrington, and you know what? Diminishing DP!

Is it possible that all this naysaying is just a coping mechanism? That remains to be seen. I've certainly seen some defensiveness so far.


----------



## Guest (Jan 6, 2013)

Huggy Bear said:


> 1) Since you believe that a genetic basis is required for DP, how does it work when the DP disappears all of a sudden? Does a gene switch itself on/off within a split second? Pretty unrealistic... If there is a genetic component, then it remains stable and isn't important per se, because the DP is switched on/off by environmental factors (even unconscious ones).
> 
> 2) Just because certain mental illnesses run in families, doesn't prove at all that genetics play a role. Toxic communication patterns can be sufficient to create sick minds.
> 
> ...


Well, you have your POV I have mine. But I am placed on the defensive. No matter what I present it isn't true. And Oliver Sacks is not pop psych. He is a neurologist. His directs his books to the lay public to make neurology accessible to the average person. Same with V.S. Ramachandran.

1. Genetic basis. There are things called epigenes which turn genes on and off. There are many studies in mice, cats, dogs, lower primates where a gene can literally be turned on and off like a light switch. An anixious mouse can become a calm mouse with minor gentic alteration. Also, DP/DR that come and go are just like the symptoms of bipolar. One can have long periods of stability and health, then after years have another episode. This is true of many genetic medical disorders.

Also, mental illness is documented in animals -- most fascinating is in primates.

2. You have missed the point of the genetic studies entirely. You simply don't understand what I have posted.

3. Believe what you will. I have been in treatment since I was 15 and I am 54. I know myself. Don't tell me what I "don't know about myself." You seem quite confiedent in your POV, why am I not entitled to be confident in mine? I AM better than I was when I was younger. It has taken years of effort.

4. I don't claim to know more than everyone else, I am trying to educate people who know NOTHING. They have no point of view or their POV is so incorrect it astonishes me. I'd gather if I finish my degree in psych and public health you wouldn't believe me either.

I am not deluded. My job is to educate people. My job is to help reduce the stigma surrounding brain disorders.
If you were "lucky enough to get out of DP before" that is great. We are different. Some people respond better to any number of approaches re: treatment. I do not tell you, "Well, you're obviously caught in DP again because you aren't trying to get well." I would not say that to a single person on this board. No one.

This is like liberals and conservatives discussing why their POV is better or worse. Pointless.

I have a passion re: learning. I study music and art and history and politics. I read literature. I love films, discussing and debating them. I am fascinated by human behavior. If I didn't have DP/DR and spoke of these things in the same way, you wouldn't say I'm deluding myself. You are then likewise "defensive" -- you simply defend your own POV. What stuns me are claims that are PROVEN to be untrue and based on no facts whatsoever.


----------



## Guest (Jan 6, 2013)

Fearless said:


> did you guys know that codependency is highly related to DP, and codependent people tend to have an urgent need to convince others? lol


Dearest Fearless,
I noticed your kind comment here before logging in. Codependency is not highly related to DP at all. You have your facts wrong on that one. You do not understand the concept of codependency.

Call me what you will. One thing I am not is codependent. I have and always have been a very INDEPENDENT person. I realize my desire to explain things is a need to have my mother hear me, which she never did or could. I also have a desire to be liked and loved. I never felt loved until much later in my life, and never felt loved by my parents -- they did not love me. I have had to face that. I do not miss them, I have had to face that and it is extremely painful. So I have worked hard, my entire life to work through many of these thngs. I have more understanding what I thought was "normal" was NOT normal. That I was not the "evil seed" my mother said I was. And though my father wanted a boy, not a girl, I have to accept that. His charming best friend informed me of that.

I have worked through plenty of shit.
God forbid I have been involved with advocacy for some 25+ years. Over that time, my opinions have evolved, changed.
I also am wasting my time discussing this with individuals who ... if you are calling me defensive .. are equally defensive.

We agree to disagree. What I find unnacceptable is insulting people instead of discussing issues.

I absolutely cannot sleep thinking about the ignorance in this world. So I write. I do my part to educate. If no one pays attention, well, I tried. Ah, yes, I am a writer and have a tremendous flow of thoughts and ideas. Sue me. I can write a damned good resesarch paper and have written many.


----------



## RichUK (Oct 6, 2011)

JUst a little point a friend of mine suffered horrible childhood abuse but has never had DP


----------



## RichUK (Oct 6, 2011)

Well if someone suffers horrible childhood abuse and does get DP then someone else suffers horrible childhood abuse and does thats pretty good evidence to say that people have a predisposition. My childhood was amazing I was happy no issues what so ever but I still developed DR


----------



## Guest (Jan 7, 2013)

Susto, I thank you again for being kind in this discussion. In your case, you may very well come out of this with never having DP/DR again in your life and I hope that is true. I NEVER said this is "brain damage" I am simply saying that environment, such as stress/abuse can cause changes in brain circuitry etc. They have recently developed a blood test in depressed individuals -- still in the research stage. Individuals even at risk for depression may be diagnosed through a blood test and other methods.

*What people are missing here is that I am not tied to the idea that I will never get better. But it may take much longer for me, and that is the case for others. * I HAVE gotten better over time. I have been in many forms of therapy including psychoanalysis for some time which included a psychoanalysit/MD who based a good bit of his theories on Bowlby sp? I left home to go to University, and later to move across the country, so I have found different psychiatrists/therapists.

No one has ever found "hidden memories" that I am not facing. The key to most of my therapy has been to come to terms with my abuse, not berate myself endlessly, see I was the SANE person in my "family." I am STILL working. What has helped me most is DBT, mindfulness, activities. As I have said 5,000 times, I have worked, gotten a BA and MA and am seeking a second MA in Public Health. I am married. I have friends. I socialize. I am in a depression support group where every person there (up to a man age 70 is STILL fighting with depression/anxiety and is a recovering alcoholic). I admisre him very much. He also happens to be a retired therapist!

*Bottom line, as I say on my website -- my experience is only my OWN, it does not reflect that of any other person here. Outcomes are all different and I suspect those who have drug induced may have a clearly differently outcome from chronic abuse. And mine was severe.*

And whoever suggested I have no "life experience" well -- I am 54. I have lived an amazing life, despite all of this. And I will say for the BILLIONTH time I personally KNOW individuals with a variety of mental illnesses, and have since becoming involved in mental health advocacy. I have also met over 20 people in person who have DP/DR, if not more. THEY ALL HAVE A DIFFERENT STORY, and many WERE NOT ABUSED. That is more life experience than the bulk of individuals on the board regardless of age. I have friends who are doctors, I have friends who have mental illness, I have friends whose children have mental illness. Individuals write to me on my site about their own struggles.

I am not denying my abuse! How silly to say that. Of course it is a factor. But some individuals with the SAME abuse do not get DP/DR. I know a good number of abuse victims who may have many social problems, depression, etc. But they are not in denial about the abuse. I have seen in some sensitive people that death of a parent at an early age may have been a factor. But I know many who lost their parents at the same ages and do not have any mental health problems.

In my situation I see predisposition to dissociate (I am a sensitive artistic person) and 2 parents (one who abandoned me early on) who did not help me. I have no extended family either. No one, save some cousins I am not close with -- we are of a huge age difference and did not grow up together as my mother did not want that interaction.

I tell MY story. You can take it or leave it. It is one experience. Mine. Everyone here also has their own story.

Again, I would never tell one person here that they have not tried to get well, or to cope. Also, I am familiar with Harrington and Amen. Their POVs are often similar to the therapy I have already received directly and professionally. If they work for others here, great. Try whatever you feel will make you better. Also, you are all younger. As I've said, I was alone with this for 40 years or so, BEFORE more knowledge by therapists/doctors. BEFORE the internet. I was absolutely stunned to find this site. For decades I thought I was the only person on earth with this illness.

There were no books on the topic, there was not easy access to any information or support.

I do not have DP/DR by choice. I am working as best I can to live each day to the fullest despite this. And as I SAID, I am better than I was when I was a teen and in highschool. For years it was AWFUL. I am mainly more depressed at what I have lost -- mainly having a child. THAT is depressing.

I can't/won't defend myself any more.


----------



## Guest (Jan 7, 2013)

Oh, re: independence. I was always LEFT to be independent, to take care of myself since I was a little girl. My mother wouldn't even take me to the dentist! I would take a taxi at age 10! When we traveled I occupied myself -- and this is worldwide travel, even to the Orient and Africa.

It was beaten into me that I was useless and should take care of myself. That was both good and bad.

But my mother's money bought the best education anyone could have. That saved my life.

I blame the parents of many young people here, who dont, even in a kind way, discipline, teach manners, and most importantly teach their children a need to LEARN, to enjoy learning ... and most of all compassion.

But why am I compassionate. Why do I care for others when my mother never cared for me? I think it was my given personality, DESPITE what I grew up with.

I don't care what anyone thinks. I am here mainly to post information now. My site is there to help. My advoacy is to help others.


----------



## Guest (Jan 7, 2013)

Susto said:


> god I feel deep sadness sometimes...


So do I. Many, many days. I only ask that no one give up hope. I have had long periods of complete hopelessness, despair, but if I wait ... if I simply drag along for 24 more hours, or 48 ... for some reason I come back to a better frame of mind. Without any support such as this board for years, I planned suicide (three times in my life), but I did not do it. I hope everyone here hangs on. FInd the smallest bit of hope you can find. The tiniest and cling to it with all your might. Even minute by minute.

Also recently what has helped me very much -- an Art class, and a depression support group. Both offer support, social interaction with no pressure and are distracting and very helpful. I also plan to get a kitten. Kitten shopping, and even pup shopping ... I look forward to that.


----------



## mipmunk40 (Nov 13, 2012)

I wasn't emotionally abused in any way as a child, but bad mental health problems run on my mum's side of the family. I have had DP numerous times, the first time I got depression and days later, DP triggered off. I had many episodes where I worried and worried and worried over something and it ate away at me, until suddenly the click went in my head and the DP triggered off again. For years now I have made sure I don't get too overwhelmed or upset or traumatized, especially when my cat, Georgey died in 2011, I cried for him but knew if I really got too devastated my DP would kick in. Sadly in September 2012 I got depression again and 3 days later the DP kicked in. It is now January 2013 and I still have DP. DP kicks in thinking it can protect you for your suffering, but then it hangs around longer than necessary, it is a self defence mechanism gone wrong and it seems we are all predisposed to getting it. I am proof that it isn't always to do with a traumatic childhood. I had a great upbringing, I think it is just because mental health problems are rife on my mum's side of the family and hence why I suffer too.


----------



## JackDanielß (Nov 28, 2012)

mipmunk40 said:


> I wasn't emotionally abused in any way as a child


Keep telling that to yourself until you've really read into it and see how vast concept it is.


----------



## mipmunk40 (Nov 13, 2012)

JackDanielß said:


> Keep telling that to yourself until you've really read into it and see how vast concept it is.


eh?


----------



## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Some time ago psychiatrists went through a period of convincing their patients that they went through abuse as a child. I can't remember what continent but I'm guessing America. Alot of the patients in therapy couldn't remember any abuse, but were convinced through being beaten into submission by the persuasiveness of the therapist. It's all online. People were so convinced that they filed lawsuits against their family members because they believed they had been sexually / physically abused but just 'couldn't remember' ......... Some time later the lawsuits were turned onto the therapist.

Fearless is doing exactly what they did, by saying that we should look into our pasts and try and understand why we behave the way we do. 
For some people, who really did go through emotional abuse, this may be a necessary path, but for others, no matter how many times you tell them to remember their abuse, they can't. You know why? COS IT DIDN'T FUCKING HAPPEN...

Your asking people to try and realize that they were abused, when they weren't!

No one has an ideal childhood because no one has perfect parents, yet so few people know about depersonalisation. Don't you see? Your argument doesn't add up.


----------



## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

I'm only qualifying emotional abuse by the standards of Harris Harrington, who talks alot about alcoholic parents etc. I thought you shared the same opinion? Evidently not.


----------



## Guest (Jan 8, 2013)

Midnight said:


> Some time ago psychiatrists went through a period of convincing their patients that they went through abuse as a child. I can't remember what continent but I'm guessing America. Alot of the patients in therapy couldn't remember any abuse, but were convinced through being beaten into submission by the persuasiveness of the therapist. It's all online. People were so convinced that they filed lawsuits against their family members because they believed they had been sexually / physically abused but just 'couldn't remember' ......... Some time later the lawsuits were turned onto the therapist.
> 
> Fearless is doing exactly what they did, by saying that we should look into our pasts and try and understand why we behave the way we do.
> For some people, who really did go through emotional abuse, this may be a necessary path, but for others, no matter how many times you tell them to remember their abuse, they can't. You know why? COS IT DIDN'T FUCKING HAPPEN...
> ...


Midnight, this is another area of research I followed for years as a member of the ISSMPD not the ISSD-T. They had to change their name from "Multiple Personality Disorder" to "Dissociative Identity Disorder." I was actually treated by two founding members of the group, but Cornelia Wilbur who "treated" Shirley Mason ("Sybil") established the organization. In a span of years, from say the late 1800s there were perhaps 2 records of individuals with say "two personalities." I believe by the 1980s there were 40,000 cases in the US alone.

History went with media: Jekyl and Hyde, to "The 3 Faces of Eve" to "Sybil" ... this led to a proliferation of therapists who created false memories. This is no more forgivable than doctors who throw medication at patients. Equally destructive.

I became aware of a change in POV even when being treated by my own psychoanalyst. He could have gone with MPD with me, but he didn't. His diagnosis was also Depersonalization, Anxiety, Depression. His colleague was the first person to give me Klonopin which was the first drug that helped me. That SAME doctor (who gave me the medication) was sued by a number of patients as "false memories" were created in them, and alter personalities upwards of 100 different personalitites.

This was also during the 80s/90s when "Satanic Ritual Abuse" was found rampant. The bulk of these cases ONLY occurred in North America. That brought much suspicion. Many lives were ruined by doctors I KNEW, who tried to "make you remember" things that weren't there. Many studies illustrate how easy it is to plant a memory. This is the same way innocent individuals admit to murder when they didn't. They are beaten down, the just agree. Children do this as well. They say, "OK, OK, so and so did this!" -- they just want to be left alone.

It became clear in many cases in California. Rabbits had been sacrificed in front of children, etc. -- so the police/FBI tore up an entire school ground looking for rabbit bones and found none -- they found NOTHING anywhere -- any bit of evidence of what had been claimed -- acutally COACHED by therapists. Children got on the bandwagon saying, "Oh yes, Mr. Buckey (one man whose life was destroyed) took me up in a spaceship and while we flew around the town he touched me. Then we came back to Earth and had candy."









"Sybil Exposed" -- a recent book illustrates that Dr. Wilbur drugged Shirley Mason, gave her electroshock, and made her say she had alters. There is evidence of all of this in tape recordings, notes, etc. Other doctors who saw her (one in particular forgot his name) said they would ask, "How are you doing today Shirley?" and she would say, "Well, whom do you want me to be today?" And the doctor would be taken aback and say, "What do you mean?" She'd say, "Dr. Wilbur like me to be different people. It's supposed to help me. She told me so." I mentioned before that Freud was notorious for demanding his female "hysterics" to reveal sexual abuse they had experienced when they hadn't. Often they wanted to please him, or became frightened by his demands. He was not a happy camper himself. He may have been something of a genius, but was rather cruel, and a coke addict to boot.

This is not to say child abuse doesn't occur. It occurs at an alarming rate. Sexual, physical and verbal. But children remember. They deal with it in different ways.

I confronted one of my doctors when the Satanic Abuse cases came out. He said, "some mistakes were made in treatment." NO S**T. They settled their lawsuits, and many patients had to be "deprogrammed." Some doctors never practiced again. Some had good intentions, some -- I don't know.

I believe there is some repression in some people. To a degree, but it is more a refusal to examine the issue as it is too humiliating or painful. They have not forgotten, they simply wish to forget, and they can't.

And indeed -- all parents are imperfect. Those who love the most do the best. But not all children who are raised properly end up without psychological problems or mental illness. And not all kids who are abused end up seriously limited.

And as the opening line of Anna Karenina states, and this isn't 100% correct, "All happy families are alike. All unhappy families are unhappy in their own way."

*I would like to ask -- and perhaps I've missed this somewhere in all of this -- what is it that I am not facing? If Fearless is reading this, what is it you found you were not facing? I'm not sure you've ever explained that. Or anyone else here. Curious as to what you think I'm hiding from myeslf? I'm honestly curious. I have plenty of issue to deal with and am doing so now. I also do not ask for pity and continue to go about my life as best I can. I have accomplished MANY things in spite of this.*

Both of my parents were mentally ill. I have many mentally ill people in my family. Both of my parents were doctors -- so someone with severe problems can still live a life, not asking for pity -- my mother despised anyone she felt was "weak" and never wanted to be seen as "weak" she was TOUGH. My sick family members have had full lives, though they might not have been happy. My youngest cousins are the ones suffering, especially one who has schizophrenia, and another who is schizoaffective. Both have been hospitalized multiple times. Both have been suicidal. Both have been violent. If the phone rang and someone told me they were dead from suicide or had seriously injured someone else (and most mentally people are NOT violent) it would be very painful, but not a surprise. Actually one older cousin destroyed his mother's apartment after she died. He turned it into a shrine as well. He proceed to beat up his best friend who was trying to calm him down -- that was the only way they could get him to the hospital. He's doing a bit better now -- parnoid most of the time however.

I also had a friend I still miss who killed herself in 2004. She had serious problems and had no health insurance. Though she was 46 or so at the time I could remember back to times in college when her actions foreshadowed her death. It all made sense in hindsight, though it has taken me years to work through that.

*Compassion. Have compassion. And no one really has all the answers here. We can offer our own successes and failures. That is all.*


----------



## Guest (Jan 8, 2013)

Yes, tl:dr Why I'm writing my book. Then I'll be done yakking, LOL. I do talk a lot as well. It is my nature. I have many thoughts running around my head, just dying to come out. That is who I am.


----------



## Guest (Jan 8, 2013)

Just for fun -- here are some repressed memories. Check out the Men in Black ... watch for the dancing alien.

"We are the Men in Black,
Galaxy defenders,
We are the Men in Black,
Don't let you remember."






Hope this works ...


----------



## Guest (Jan 8, 2013)

Huggy Bear said:


> PS: Since I am co-dependent and want to convince others, here is a bit more food for thought...
> 
> http://www.bioedge.o...s_article/8643/
> http://www.noveltech...les/pdf/167.pdf
> ...


I tend towards biological reductionism, but it does not explain everything. I agree with you. We are mind/body/enviornment and that's what makes each of us unique. I have never said otherwise.


----------



## Guest (Jan 8, 2013)

Also, we may never understand why we have consciousness. That is probably impossible to ever figure out by science or any other means.


----------



## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

Midnight

I have read your posts and it would appear to me that you were emotionally NEGLECTED and you say your mother was always anxious and depressed so therefore she would have been emotionally smothering on you and extremely intrusive not to mention she would have made you responsible for her feelins this is ALL emotional abuse people who can't handle there emotions, parents who turn to there kids for emotional support, parents who invalidate and ignore a child's views, feelings. Even when a parent doesn't acknowledge you when you ask for something or go to them in need that is emotional abuse... I think you guys should stop insulting fearless he knows exactly what he is saying and he got out of it ... Every case of DP no matter what the abuse or trigger is the way out is exactly the same in ALL cases


----------



## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

Dreamer

I admire you for still living a normal life and I really feel for you having this disorder many years ago when there was absolutely no information on it.

The whole "perceptual distortion" is due to the dissociation from yourself it's acting as a mask to cover your true self which is in fact your emotional self... Have u ever considered inner child work? Susto is right in the fact that you have to accept and integrate all parts of urself to heal from this, would you say that you ever show ur vulnerable self to ppl? Have u ever expressed ur feelings and or even paid attention to ur feelings? Do u ignore them, neglect them or pretend they are not there? How u treat urself and ur feelings is a mirror on how u were treated by ur mother you do to yourself what she did to u and u can change this by doing inner child work daily and consistently it means repatriating yourself


----------



## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

Vortimi the brains pathways for emotional processing, planning and emotional mirroring is within the first 3 stages of development

If your father was not there that means u never formed an "emotional connection with your dad"


----------



## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

The reason I never looked to anyone for emotional support is because I felt like a burden that is the root feeling I have in me "not feeling wanted" "burden" my parents were always calling me the selfish one and treated me like the problem child

It's nowonder I find it hard to turn to ppl when I'm in need


----------



## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

Vortimi could it be u were disgusted by ur grandfather because u did not have a dad?


----------



## Guest (Jan 8, 2013)

missjess said:


> Dreamer
> 
> I admire you for still living a normal life and I really feel for you having this disorder many years ago when there was absolutely no information on it.
> 
> The whole "perceptual distortion" is due to the dissociation from yourself it's acting as a mask to cover your true self which is in fact your emotional self... Have u ever considered inner child work? Susto is right in the fact that you have to accept and integrate all parts of urself to heal from this, would you say that you ever show ur vulnerable self to ppl? Have u ever expressed ur feelings and or even paid attention to ur feelings? Do u ignore them, neglect them or pretend they are not there? How u treat urself and ur feelings is a mirror on how u were treated by ur mother you do to yourself what she did to u and u can change this by doing inner child work daily and consistently it means repatriating yourself


MissJess,
I appreciate your comments. I have to say that since I first saw a psychiatrist in 1975, I have worked on all of these issues. I indeed have learned over time to do many of these things. I was "sworn to a life of secrecy" by my mother -- she was a psychiatrist and was disgusted that I had problems (that affected school, etc.).

Thing is I always show my vulnerable self. When I "came out" fully and told my story on my website I said, "The Hell with it ... this is the truth ... this is what happened to me."

I have a lot of dear friends I've known for years with whom I have shared similar war stories. I always open up first, then they open up. I was always that way since a kid. I have gone through tremendous rage, grief, confusion, etc., etc., in working out my relationship with my parents. In the 1970s, seeing a psychiatrist really meant seeing a psychoanalyst who was an MD.

Over time, when I was ready to kill myself near age 30, one doctor who worked for the ISSD-T (then ISSMPD) said, "We have been having some success with our DP/DR inpatients on Klonopin." Well, that saved my life that time. But I had been working 15 years, alone, before that on "inner child work".

To this day, when I see my therapist, and I see myself seeing things in "black and white", or am beating myself up, she asks me, "Whose voice is that?" And I am reminded it is my mother's voice, etc.

Not explaining this well, but, yes, I have worked very hard. What has made things more difficult for me is that my parents were much older than I when I was born and were professionals (doctors) and "Gods" ... even though yes, they had serious issues of their own. I took care of my father's illness/death/burial on my own in 1990. My mother developed Alzheimer's and died in 2001. I made it a point to spend time with them (they hadn't spoken to each other for years) as there was no one else to help them -- they had no friends.

I made an effort when both were dying to talk to them as much as I could. I grieved, I was angry, but I wanted to be with them when they died.

I guess what I'm trying to say is
1. Yes, I have done all sorts of work. From the 1970s to the 1990s it was more focused on the psychoanalytic school. Then one med saved me and I continued (and am still) working in therapy. I see a therapist every 2 weeks and go to a depression group every week.
2. I see two things wrong with me -- the abuse, and my predisposed personality. It has been recognized by every doctor, therapist, and individual I have shared this with. The work is to help me find an inner peace ... this is too simplistic ... and I have said, I have gotten BETTER. I don't thnk existential thoughts, I speak my opinion (as you can see, lol) when in the past I would have said nothing.

Too tired now, to go into detail.

I guess, the cornball statement to all of this is we are all a "work in progress." And for those of us who have been through sick childhoods have a lot of work to do. I hear a lot of things here that are very much like my life -- basically being completely ignored by one's parent. I don't feel I had parents. Serioulsy, I consider I was raised by my private school. And that is not a substitute for love. My parents did not love me and I have to work on that EVERY DAY.

As a matter of fact I am running out the door to see my therapist.

I guess, what hurts me here, is the implication that in all these years I haven't worked my ass off to get better. I is VERY DIFFICULT. Despite severe anxiety, DP/DR etc. I have performed and been a singer ... those were ways I could express my pain without being "me." But I feel deep sadness and rage and even happiness sometimes and am able to share that.

I just find it difficult to hear, when no therapist I have ever had has said, that I am not "working" to get better. We progress at our own pace.
I will say again, in my depression group, the ages range from about 40 - 71. Every person in that group is struggling with depression, anxiety, and SOME members were abused (seriously abused), and some were NOT. No one would say, to the group organizer (who is 71), "H, you really haven't tried much your whole life to get better have you?"

That isn't how it works.

Sadly becaues of this infernal internet we can't really know each other. I am overly sensitive to what Fearless says as it would be the words of my mother. "Idiot! You aren't doing what you're supposed to be doing." So I suppoed that sting hits just the right spot. It is why I put him on ignore.

At any rate. I'm tired today. But it hurts me very much for someone to say I am not trying to be well. If I am anything, I'm a masochist for listening to it.
Lesson learned. And there are more to come.
D


----------



## Guest (Jan 8, 2013)

Susto said:


> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dreamer this shows after years of therapy you still have not resolved your emotional issues! this shows EXACTLY the traits in you that arise from emotional abuse and can cause DP!! You still feel inside you the pain and fear from your past, and once you resolve this you are cured!!


Thanks a lot. I really don't care to visit here anymore because of this. I just saw my psychiatrist. I meantioned these comments to him, as I have to my therapist. He said such comments serve no useful purpoes and he would never say them to ANY patient. Yes, I am still dealing with feeling hurt, with beating myself up. But I am doing SO much better than when I was a child, a teen, a young adult. I have to work on completely ignoring such attacks.

Every person must deal with a multitude of issues -- in their own time. Honestly, if I all of this goes away, I would only post to say so. I have nothing more to contribute to this forum.

This means all of us who have had this life-long are weak, useless individuals. I will not put up with that. I know people who are 60 who have had DP/DR their entire lives. They have accomplished more than those especially who attack others.
I see *my* masochism here.
If you read my website you will see I talk about abuse and everything in between.
The nastiest thing anyone has ever said to anyone with any issue is "you're not trying enough." As you all get older you will see this. This is how a cruel parent would talk to a child. I find that very interesting.

I look forward to a year of more projects, more growth. And God help me no other surprises with my health.
Advocacy, art class, writing, reading, a kitten or pup.
My only regret is if I stay away from here I won't be helping Rev as much.


----------



## Guest (Jan 8, 2013)

Vortimi said:


> To be honest, Fearless also reminds me of my mother, by having very dominant personality, which I am afraid of.


I would say Fearless isn't helping anyone -- just IMHO -- the kindness and support that used to be on this board is gone. He is toxic. You remove yourself from toxic people. I left my parents, I work with scars I had since childhood. If anything, if I am a masochist, he plays sadist to my masochism.

I will say, if Fearless, or anyone else who has this "tough love" helps anyone, that's great. But it doesn't work on everyone. You tailor treatment/therapy to individuals, not in generalizations. Fearless is as arrogant as you make me out to be, I see that now.

One big goal in my life was to NOT be my mother or father. I am neither. I am my own person. I have fully succeeded in that.

So be it, but he has a lot of HIS own issues to sort out. Nothing like anyone in my support group. Many who have lived their entire lives with varous emotional problems. We encourage each other's accomplishments. We don't attack when someone falls down and picks themself up again. Really sad.

Fearless, if you're cured, why are you here? I'm always curious about that. But I don't give a s**t anymore.


----------



## JackDanielß (Nov 28, 2012)

Welcome to the 2013 hun.


----------



## inferentialpolice (Nov 26, 2012)

Dreamer, I asked this somewhere in a prior topic but I'm guessing that you missed it:

Dreamer, Have you ever been assessed for a dissociative disorder further along the spectrum than straight-up DP? One of the problems I see with DP-oriented books is the fact that DP is one of the constituent symptoms of some greater dissociative disorders, and unless the symptoms are assessed beyond the presence of DP, the greater dissociative disorder is missed. If you have been diagnosed as DP, yet are still struggling for years with continued symptoms, perhaps it is time to consider if one of the other dissociative disorders are in play? The idea is that treating dissociative disorders beyond DP have extra bags of techniques which may bring meaningful changes in symptoms.

THanks for your contributions to this site -- I hope you don't give up on these forums.


----------



## xxmdogxx (Jun 26, 2012)

TENSION its just tension one word anyone that says anything different is full of shit


----------



## thminn (Jul 30, 2012)

fearless

I think it would be wiser to admit that predisposition plays a role in dp.
There are a lot of people who have a horrible childhood and do a lot of shit to themselves due to that and still dont develop dp.

STILL THIS KEEPS NO ONE FROM HEALING IF THEY DO THE RIGHT THINGS, and there you are right, harrington hits the nail on the head (you and Harrington and books from Alice Miller and Karen Horney brought me on the right track)

But you keep talking to the people on the board like they KNOW and just dont cause they are not brave enough.

I think its wrong to call people on here cowards cause they DONT KNOW what they are NOT DOING, cause if they really KNEW,they would get angry at the right persons and stop punishing themselves for what they experienced.
and I dont think that its wrong because it makes you a mean person but because you got something valuable to say and by telling it this way ( HOW not WHAT)
you make them angry and they stop listening to you while it would shorten their suffering if they did.


----------



## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

Dreamer

How come I recovered once with inner child work? It took me literally 2 months of solid hard work and it involved daily work, not shaming myself ever and accepting myself unconditionally, paying attention to my needs and feelings and acting on them no matter what, it meant confronting my boss about my own needs (who was very much like my controlling angry father) you got to face dominant ppl ... U got to accept every aspect of yourself you say you don't want to be like ur mother or father well that is rejecting the very aspect in you that has dominance and angression ... What you are afraid of about other ppl you have actually rejected those aspects in yourself. You need to actually recondition yourself because you have been conditioned by your parents to be fearfull and obedient you need to change your conditioning etc and it does take a shit load of work how do I know this well I got our of DP myself.

Inferentialpolice

The only severe dissociative disorder is multiple personality disorder and even then I have heard of ppl fully integrating and becoming whole again... You could say I have dissociative identity disorder because I am dissociated from my true self and living as an inauthentic person (total opposite as my true nature) it is always possible to heal tho


----------



## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

Thminn

Disorganized attachment is why we developed DP and not others ... Personality has nothing to do with it in my younger years I was so confident and I had no problem with standing up for myself and asserting ppl, I was actually a leader .. I was also a very sensitive person but was told by my dad that I was to sensitive and naive etc so I learnt to cover it up coz I didn't want to appear "weak"


----------



## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

Vortimi

I can say with confidence that you need to be away from your family if you want to heal this, once you heal you can see them and feel more comfortable around them when you are strong enough to repel the abuse and neglect... I recovered BUT I was not strong enough even tho I had learnt to say no to people and could stand up for myself again ... My enmeshment pattern I have with my mum was very strong and I don't know about it until I moved in so yeah pretty much the work that I had done reversed itself because I reverted into the abused neglected child again


----------



## thminn (Jul 30, 2012)

Cut the first two lines of what I wrote out.

But:
Man you really get pissed easily.
And you seem to stop reading as soon as theres critique.

If you had read what I wrote youd see that I did follow the stuff you told me.and that it is getting me out of this shit. I still dont get the whole picture bute I got the pieces and Im putting them together.

"What you guys do is supporting each other in your dysfunctional thinking."
this is bullshit.
Im not saying that people are not responible to change their condition.I also think that there is no way out If they dont take responsibility.

All Im saying is that in order to take action you need to emotionally understand what hast been done to you and the things that resulted from that and if you dont understand you cant take action. If you did not understand youre not YET a coward.but by calling them things like this you make them go away when they should listen.

Its like calling someone a coward for not beeing able to speak french if he never had contact with that language.


----------



## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Fearless said:


> it's another post which sounds very logical, but the fact is that you have no idea what I'm talkin about. you don't even know what you are disagreeing. it's clear from your post. you all have to understand, that I'm NOT interested in debate. I'm here to help who accepts it. you disagree? ignore me, and follow ideas you like more.
> 
> but I don't need your opinion,* I'm no longer looking for *explanation and cure.
> 
> ...


what are you on about??? I'm not even giving people advice...

I wouldn't want people to listen to me - I have no answer for DP/DR, I'm still experiencing it, so I don't give advice to others.

All I'm saying is, not everyone who develops DP had a bad childhood. That's the entire extent of my argument, and you are disagreeing, which is fine, except it's frustrating that you can't seem to admit that your theory might not apply to every person on this forum.

I wish so much that what your saying would work for me, but it won't, because there is no abuse to uncover.


----------



## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

Vortimi

Your inner child is your inner self ... People with DP are cut off from there inner selves hence you feel cut off from the world ... People who have toxic shame (which is being rejected and unloved by ur parents for ur entire being not just behaviour) don't trust there feelings and there bodies mainly because growing up you were shamed and abandoned for having human instincts and needs so what happens is you leaner to ignore them and don't act on them because emotional abuse brain washes you into believing you cannot trust yourself ... Think about this when u have a question to ask do u ever aka yourself first or do u doubt it and need to confirm with other ppl? Ppl with DP need other ppl to tell them things first and if its ok before taking action this is the result of emotional abuse


----------



## thminn (Jul 30, 2012)

because I dont want to ignore you.you help me understand what is going on and I am glad that you do help the people on here.
thats why.

I am only saying its a fucking tragedy if there are people on here that are fucking hope and helpless dont listen to you because of THE WAY you tell them what you know.

but yah I know you dont give a shit.


----------



## thminn (Jul 30, 2012)

Fearless said:


> you guys are not far from making me leave this forum.
> 
> I run a business, have a lot of projects, have friends, got money, make music for TV shows, I live at my own crib, I have lot of better things to do than trying to help stubborn and disrespectful people.


for gods sake dont.
this forum needs you.
I was just trying to make a point but its not worth it.


----------



## JackDanielß (Nov 28, 2012)

Midnight said:


> what are you on about??? I'm not even giving people advice...
> 
> not everyone who develops DP had a bad childhood.


Do explain, is this fact based on actual research, or just your own little personal experience in middle of vast ocean that is thousands and thousands of DP'd people with bad childhood?


----------



## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

JackDanielß said:


> you don't even read my posts.
> 
> for the last time:
> 
> ...


Well, clearly people are talking about bad childhoods... but ok pal.


----------



## JackDanielß (Nov 28, 2012)

Bye


----------



## tnasty2 (Aug 12, 2012)

I still have no idea how having dp constitutes anyone as being a coward?


----------



## Guest (Jan 9, 2013)

inferentialpolice said:


> Dreamer, I asked this somewhere in a prior topic but I'm guessing that you missed it:
> 
> Dreamer, Have you ever been assessed for a dissociative disorder further along the spectrum than straight-up DP? One of the problems I see with DP-oriented books is the fact that DP is one of the constituent symptoms of some greater dissociative disorders, and unless the symptoms are assessed beyond the presence of DP, the greater dissociative disorder is missed. If you have been diagnosed as DP, yet are still struggling for years with continued symptoms, perhaps it is time to consider if one of the other dissociative disorders are in play? The idea is that treating dissociative disorders beyond DP have extra bags of techniques which may bring meaningful changes in symptoms.
> 
> THanks for your contributions to this site -- I hope you don't give up on these forums.


Dear Inferential,
Thanks for this comment. This is what I see as something constructive in a discussion.

There is a misconception that all I have done is read books about DP/DR. I have to reiterate that though I had DP/DR (I called it "feeling weird") as far back as 4 or 5 (and I know it was that age as it was on a trip with my mother and I still have the passport) I started getting help after begging my mother at the age of 16 ... (I get the dates mixed up as my birthday is in December).

From seeing that first doctor in 1975 then seeing numerous other specialists my diagnosis has never changed. DPD, anxiety, depression. Most of my doctors/therapists have attributed it to my sensitive personality combined with a crazy family (my mother and me, and my absent father.) (I saw other doctors as I moved from home to university, then from univeresity to California where I lived 16 years). I then moved back to my home state.

I am writing about my journey through the mental health system (which in a sense started with my mother the MD psychiatrist who said there was nothing wrong with me, though she knew there was -- she was disgusted with me). It never changed over the years (psychoanalysts, psychiatrists, even anesthesiologists! and GPs!). From psychoanalysis (which was the focus of my treatment from 1975 until around 1990). Psychiatry (due to many changes from psychoanalytic views to more predisposition/medical views) moved towards a more medical model. After getting meds that gave me much relief, but no cure (which I never expected), I have focused on CBT and DBT. Meditiation, Mindfulness, and yoga. I focus on not catastrophizing about small issues -- finding balance.

Intersting, is that despite my drops into depression, I have less anxiety overall, and my DP/DR stay at a constant level ... even in my dreams. I have been through a lot of stress (breast cancer in 2010) and the DP/DR didn't get worse, mainly my depression did. And I also gained a new perspective on life.

Believe me, the higest level of treatment and diagnosis re: dissociation was with the founding members of the ISSMPD (now the ISSD-T) when I was in LA. Dr. Lowenstien -- an expert, and another doctor whose name I won't mention. Neither experts in dissociation saw more than DP/DR. The other levels of DP/DR are:
1. Dissociate Fugue
2. Dissociative Amnesia
3. DP/DR
4. DID (formerly MPD)
5. And Dissositive Disorder NOS

(This is from many sources including Marlene Steinberg which whom I have been in touch with briefly by email.)
Fugue, Amnesia and DID are very rare. Not otherwise specified is vague. I fit the DPD diagnosis completely, and have from 1975 - the present.

Any self-destructive traits I have I continue to work on in therapy. Over the years I have made great progress re: understanding my mother in particular, the damage she did, and the damage my father did (leaving physically and socially). I can only say, beating up on myself, and still trying to be a "good girl" for my mother ... I'm starting to work through that, big time. Part of it is her death in 2001.

I used to have nightmares EVERY night of fighting with her. I would be yelling and my husband would have to wake me up. Thoses dreams have faded. She is a rather neutral figure now. My father is rarely in my dreams as he was rarely in my life.

Bottom line, as I have seen in others, different trauma (and the personality of the individual it happens to), requires many approaches. I have found Eastern medicine (yoga, meditaion, mindfulness) very helpful now. I don't think I could have used thoes things even 10 years ago.

SO, FWIW, I think I have made tremendous progress over the years. And research I do is not just on DP/DR, it is in all mental illness, to help others who have anything from OCD to schizophrenia to depression, etc. I like working with young people. If I had the resources young people have today, improvements may have come more quickly. I will never know.

Meantime, the irony is my DP/DR remain at a base level now. My anxiety is at a relatively base level. I am dealing more with depression these days.

Right now, I see however, that it is healthier for me to not be on the site. In years past, there was much more sharing and interaction. Later I posted information, links, resources. So what you see me post now, is not what I was posting when I first joined the original board.

I only say for the last time, that everyone here, I pray (and I'm not a spiritual person) will get better. Most of you have this forum at a very early age. I had no contact with other DPrs since I was 40 something. Makes a difference. Also, I still think that drug onset though similar may not be the same as abuse onset, IDK. But I am one person here who had abuse only. I have never taken a rec drug. So my story has no variable in that sense.

We all have unique experiences and unique POVs. As I see here, information that is exchanged with kindness and empathy, goes much further than attacks. That is true of everything in life. This is why children are damaged -- they are hurt by cruelty, they are not supported by love. And the number of such children worldwide is MASSIVE. The end result can be depression, anxiety, difficulting interacting with others, having healthy relationships, and sometimes dissociative symptoms.

Again, we are all unique.
I need to take a break from here as the comaraderie that existed in the past is no longer here. My site is still up for anyone who wants to read MY story, which is different from the situation of others. And if I ever get my book published it will be out there.

What is astounding is that the first book (we know of) written by a DP/DR sufferer was Henri Amiel in the late 1800s. There was no word "depersonalization" then. The doctor who studied it, used his definition -- Amiel said he could only describe it as being depersonalized. "Journal Intime" ... his private journal. It may be available on amazon, etc. but is expensive now.

Thanks to all the good people, those who have compassion.
I apologize for getting angry sometimes. I get angry with my therapist too! But I am able to express everything to her now. I've been able to do that now with doctors/therapists more than when I was a young girl.

Bottom line, you guys are not alone.
Peace and Peace of Mind.


----------



## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

dreamer, do you know how hard it is for people with dp/dr to concentrate? Can barely read past the first paragraph, might be worth condensing your posts a bit


----------



## JackDanielß (Nov 28, 2012)

Meditation makes magic.


----------



## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

How so?


----------



## Fluffy_bunny (Sep 19, 2012)

Um...meditation actually led to me becoming chronically depersonalized...it doesn't make sense that Susto and JackDaniel are advocating it when one of the primary reasons to meditate are for the dissociative effects lol. If you keep meditating you will no doubt become MORE dissociated. Sounds like you two don't have a lot of experience meditating and don't know what you are talking about.

Btw Midnight I've read a lot of your posts and how you acquired depersonalization and what you have been going through. Your experience has a lot of similarities to mine...and I feel for you. I've been dealing with this for about seven months with a few breaks here and there.


----------



## Fluffy_bunny (Sep 19, 2012)

Well the way I meditated was to either focus on one thing like a body sensation or to just relax and let my thoughts disappear until I entered an altered DISSOCIATED state of mind, doesn't seem too complicated to me. In your opinion what is meditation? I would think in most forms of meditation dissociation is the desired result. Anyways, multiple people on this site have become chronically depersonalized through meditation, do a search or two.........One of the primary reasons to meditate is for the dissociative effects. It probably has a lot to do with the supposed benefits of meditation. Meditation isn't inherently bad, and obviously can be helpful for many people probably in small amounts, but too much can lead to chronic dissociative states in my experience and recommending it to people who are already dissociated doesn't make sense unless you are talking about a different kind of meditation, maybe mindfulness?


----------



## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Yeah, thank god someone else is saying this and not just me.

People all over this forum are so fucking stubborn about meditation and get so defensive if you point out the fact that the AIM of REAL meditation is to become detached from the mind & body.

I meditated to escape my emotions, & damn did it work... It was the most effective tool for detaching myself from my personality ever! And it's stayed that way ever since!* For 2 years...*

I became chronically depersonalised through meditation. It's a fact. No one can tell me otherwise. That's why I strongly advocate AVOIDING meditation entirely.

I've asked people to read about 'Samadhi' and other meditative states whereby people *forgot *they even had a body or mind.

Susto, do you actually know anything about meditation? Have you read any literature on the subject or read the works of gurus like Nisargadatta Maharaj?


----------



## Fluffy_bunny (Sep 19, 2012)

Agree with everything you said Midnight and if you have the time to chat I would appreciate it. If anything my best guess of the cure to depersonalization is to do everything OPPOSITE of meditation lol.


----------



## Fluffy_bunny (Sep 19, 2012)

Are you recovered Susto? and also I would be extremely interested to hear your opinions about meditation. I'll admit I could be wrong and maybe the real reason this happened to me is not because of meditation though from what I experienced I don't believe that to be the case.


----------



## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

No Susto, it's YOU that doesn't understand, I can guarantee that. I've spent countless hours in meditation, spoken to gurus all over the world, read countless books, done self-inquiry, the works basically. I am much more knowledgeable than you in this area. Trust me









Meditation in it's superficial form - the 'lite' version, is advocated by new age teachers. Meditation in it's real form is annihilation of the 'I', psychologically speaking.

Either way it's likely to do more harm than good.


----------



## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Johnagan said:


> Agree with everything you said Midnight and if you have the time to chat I would appreciate it. If anything my best guess of the cure to depersonalization is to do everything OPPOSITE of meditation lol.


Ok, shoot me a PM whenever man


----------



## ph10 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hey - I've gotta say that I agree with Justinian on this one. DP/DR, as a chronic disorder, is an obsessive state of mind. The disorder is a combination of mental hyperconsciousness, a.k.a being intensely fucking aware of every single thought that passes through your head and why it's there, and the wikipedia definition of DP as a symptom.

Depersonalization, the symptom: It consists of a feeling of watching oneself act, while having no control over a situation.[sup][1][/sup] Subjects feel they have changed, and the world has become vague, dreamlike, less real, or lacking in significance. - Wikipedia

This sensation, itself, happens to everyone during times of high stress, anxiety or simply thinking about existence. It is NORMAL and a part of the human existence. The people who then attain it as a chronic disorder are those who think harder than most about life in general. Those who are either more aware, more intelligent, or more introspective, "catch" this symptom and obsess over it until it goes away - except it doesn't. The sensation of DP feeds off of the existential thoughts and anxiety that it creates. Hence, my hypothesis is that depersonalization occurs in the "over thinkers' of people because we immediately expect some greater danger or greater meaning from this NORMAL sensation, therefore triggering anxiety and then more DP.
The abuse component, however, makes perfect sense. People who have had abusive childhoods or disorganized attachments in the past are more susceptible because, simply put, they are more likely to be anxious people, doubters, or simply introspective and contemplative toward all subjects, especially what goes on in their head. However, this can happen to ANYONE: I've always been a very thoughtful person, and have frequently had episodes where I "tuned out" from the outside world simply because my own mind was powerful enough to absorb itself in it's own creative ideas. I take this as a blessing - I wrote a 350 page novel at age 11, have composed over 300 songs on 4 instruments, and have now written 6 full-length movie scripts - and I'm 14 years old. I have had no abuse or difficult past whatsoever, and before DP I was an incredibly happy, thoughtful and also extroverted person. My DP was triggered my having some vivid dreams, and then waking up and wondering if my dreams had been real and my life had been the dream. Most people wonder that as some point, but those who tend to obsess (people with abusive pasts, or simply contemplative people in general) fear the worst from that thought. They consider, not only the great sadness this could produce if it was true, but that this might mean schizophrenia or some other serious brain problem. I GUARANTEE that if I had simply distracted myself that morning after I woke up from those dreams that I would not have severe DP/DR 2 months later. But because I ruminated on it for too long, it has become my default mindset, and my normal one feels like a brief relief that I instead must savor.
But not EVERYONE who's had abuse is going to develop this disorder. Not only that, but not EVERYONE who's had DP has some buried past of abuse that they have disassociated from.


----------



## Fluffy_bunny (Sep 19, 2012)

Depersonalization is just chronic dissociation isn't it? Being stuck in that state of mind. The one thing that all of us have in common is dissociation everything else seems to be conjecture. Some got this through abuse, some through drugs, meditation, anxiety, etc. I do think that there has to be something keeping this thing going though no matter how you acquire it, probably just fear, obsession of some sort or a perceived danger. Btw ph10nc, I watched that video you put up and I think you are spot on with most of your conclusions, you have given some of the best advice on this site imo.


----------



## Guest (Jan 9, 2013)

Darn, I just lost what I was posting.

There is indeed a connection between DP/DR and meditation. And again, like drug use, or abuse, it seems to be related to the individual's temperament or given predisposition. This article is from 1990, and I'm too tired today to look up more current articles but they are out there. There used to be a support forum called "Trance Net" I believe which I also can't find. An actual support board for those who developed serious limiting DP/DR from meditation. Note there are many types of meditation. What I do is simply release negative thoughts. I keep my eyes open. Breathe. Do my yoga and play music and count. If I close my eyes the DP/DR get worse.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2191357

_Psychiatry. 1990 May;53(2):158-68._
Depersonalization and meditation.
Castillo RJ.

Source
Department of Anthropology, Harvard University.

Abstract
From a review of the literature on meditation and depersonalization and interviews conducted with six meditators, this study concludes that:
1) meditation can cause depersonalization and derealization;
2) the meanings in the mind of the meditator regarding the experience of depersonalization will determine to a great extent whether anxiety is present as part of the experience;
3) there need not be any significant anxiety or impairment in social or occupational functioning as a result of depersonalization;
4) a depersonalized state can become an apparently permanent mode of functioning;
5) patients with Depersonalization Disorder may be treated through a process of symbolic healing--that is, changing the meanings associated with depersonalization in the mind of the patient, thereby reducing anxiety and functional impairment;
6) panic/anxiety may be caused by depersonalization if catastrophic interpretations of depersonalization are present.

PMID:
2191357
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Sort of chicken or egg I suppose. But from what I hear of drug trips, some are never affected by them and don't develop DP/DR. A good many of people who are abused in a variety of ways never develop DP/DR. Many who meditate never develop DP/DR.

I see the goal of Zen Buddhism (Thich Nhat Hahn) as merely clearing the mind of negative thoughts -- letting them pass. Seeing we are all humble beings, part of the world. The concept frees us from clinging to material things to make us happy. Peace is within us. Very basic.

I think "trancendental meditation" is what is implicated most in DP/DR, though I'm not expert on this.

My two cents. A medical study. And there is a support group somewhere for individuals who have gotten "stuck" in DP/DR from meditating. Will look for it.


----------



## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Susto said:


> how much confusion being spread on this forum... I promise to come back one day and clarify my point. byebye for now


you don't know jack about meditation, trust me.


----------



## tnasty2 (Aug 12, 2012)

In response to phonic, I used to believe that looking inward and becoming aware of the feeling was the reason behind dp, and that this was down to a lot of introspection and intelligence but it is completely correlated to abuse. The reason you become aware of it is because you feel fear in yourself when you feel fear (disorganized attachment) other people get the same feelings however they let themselves feel that way. Through emotional abuse you are "taught" that feeling that way isn't correct. It's like imagine being nervous around someone you like, that is fine, that is normal, now imagine everyone makes fun of you for feelin nervous. Next time you'll examine the feeling of nervous or reject it. So now when you feel fear and try to find security you feel fear again, resulting in dp.


----------



## JackDanielß (Nov 28, 2012)

So, there are many theories why meditation DOES NOT cause DP, what's Midnight your theory why it causes?
Because all I hear is that MEDITATION CAUSES DP. No reasons yet provided.


----------



## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

Tnasty2

You are spot on ... Shame based parenting conditions you to disconnect from your natural feelings and instincts through abandonment and punishment so eventually you come to live in your head and how you know your whole identity has become shame based is when u feel a feeling or need to reach out and u feel shame instead of security and comfort ... I have reason to believe that people with DP got so incredibly disconnected from there true selves hence DP and I think that most of our true selves are naturally highly emotional that's why we don't "feel right" because a huge part of us got conditioned out of us by our parents and even society


----------



## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

JackDanielß said:


> midnight, you have had a bad experience with it and now you are dooming it. I don't trust you, I don't agree with you, and you don't have to trust me. let's stay like this.
> 
> honestly, this is very childish of you. I'm here if you want a more serious discussion, not just jiberjaber that meditation is all bad. The way I view meditation might not even be the same way as you view it. this is a very wide subject


I have no idea what you mean when you talk about meditation, but most people just mean remaining as the detached observer of the mind and it's various activity and also observing the body. 

Meditation is not really a 'wide' subject. Most gurus advocate a direct path, i.e. self-inquiry (you can google it). 

I am on this website because of a night when I meditated and I became cut off from my mind, personality, emotions etc. The effect was immediately followed by a strong panic attack, then another several days later, so It's not 'jiberjaber' you absolute tool. 

Read the story of Ramana Maharshi, or Nisargadatta Maharaj

Here's a quote from the latter:-

_"As you watch your mind, you discover your self as the watcher. When you stand motionless, only watching, you discover your self as the light behind the watcher. The source of light is dark, unknown is the source of knowledge. That source alone is. Go back to that source and abide there."_

Another quote:-

_"By giving attention to your living, feeling and thinking, you free yourself from them and go *beyond* them. *Your personality dissolves* and only the witness remains. Then you go beyond the witness. Do not ask how it happens. Just search within yourself"_


----------



## Bjorn (Nov 8, 2012)

For me taking too many drugs plain and simple







Tripped off my balls... now picking up the pieces have only just started walking straight! Is it worth it fuck no


----------



## JackDanielß (Nov 28, 2012)

Can you answer WHY it causes?
Forget my opinion about the thing, just focus on the WHY?
Edit: By that I mean not some citation by a nuthead spiritualist/guru. I mean SCIENCE.


----------



## tnasty2 (Aug 12, 2012)

Meditation can trigger dp obviously not cause it. You are trained to be at peace by dissociating from your feelings. If you meditate enough this dissociation gets piled onto the all the other feelings you didn't allow yourself to feel through your life which causes your body to react by making you depersonalize. Not hard to understand. Had you not meditated you could have had dp triggered by something else.


----------



## JackDanielß (Nov 28, 2012)

tnasty2 said:


> Meditation can trigger dp obviously not cause it. You are trained to be at peace by dissociating from your feelings. If you meditate enough this dissociation gets piled onto the all the other feelings you didn't allow yourself to feel through your life which causes your body to react by making you depersonalize. Not hard to understand. Had you not meditated you could have had dp triggered by something else.


Exactly! That was what I was trying to explain somehow.
Believing that Meditation "causes" DP differs from religions by nothing.
That's why "warning about dangers of meditation" is bullshit. Might as well go warn people about the danger of getting pregnant by watching porn.


----------



## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Well, when I looked inwardly during meditation, I encountered a void. I was trying to find myself, but instead I was faced with darkness, just a void of emptiness and nothingness. This shocked me. It traumatised me at the time. I clearly wasn't ready for it, yet continued anyway. I felt like I had no stable identity anymore.

So I guess the WHY would be - meditation makes you realise the emptiness of yourself, which causes you to become detached - hence DP. Maybe it also brings up emotions which are too difficult to handle, I'm not sure.


----------



## mipmunk40 (Nov 13, 2012)

It is ironic really, how the switch to turn on the DP can go so easily, yet the switch for turning the DP off is extremely difficult if not impossible .....


----------



## mipmunk40 (Nov 13, 2012)

yes I see what you mean, I can just remember 3 and a half months ago, how the switch went in my head turning the DP on, yet all this time on, I still wait for that switch to go off again!!


----------



## JackDanielß (Nov 28, 2012)

I guess it's the age of internet why many people want simple cures.
Think about it.
"How to lose weight without excercise"
"How to get ripped fast"
"How to make money fast"
Everything is about speed and minimal work. I guess considering how we can get anything from the internet with few clicks, in interferes with our thinking too.


----------



## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

Susto

Your right on the money there DP is repressed feelings and a major one is repressed aspects of yourself!!! These rejected aspects in yourself get mirrored to you in your relationships with others. I've had my dominant aggressive/ willpower aspect of me mirrored to me many of times through my bfs and female friends.


----------



## Haumea (Jul 11, 2009)

> Your right on the money there DP is repressed feelings and a major one is repressed aspects of yourself!!! These rejected aspects in yourself get mirrored to you in your relationships with others. *I've had my dominant aggressive/ willpower aspect of me mirrored to me many of times through my bfs and female friends.*


I believe that's called _projective identification_. Two aspects of you are in opposition, and you play out one while experiencing the second through others. So you want to give each of these aspects equal time, so to speak.


----------



## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

Haumea

That's exactly right and that's what people who are not "whole" do when seeking out relationships they are looking for the part of them that they lost


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2013)

Fearless said:


> did you guys know that codependency is highly related to DP, and codependent people tend to have an urgent need to convince others? lol





Fearless said:


> you guys are not far from making me leave this forum.
> 
> I run a business, have a lot of projects, have friends, got money, make music for TV shows, I live at my own crib, I have lot of better things to do than trying to help stubborn and disrespectful people.


Hmm. 



Huggy Bear said:


> Just to come back to this article that I mentioned above: http://summerschool2...ating_organ.pdf
> 
> On page 8/9 he writes:
> 
> ...


Yeah. It also makes me believe that DP born from an anxious state is actually quite natural. When we are fleeing or fighting, we have to dissociate ourselves otherwise there would be an over-stimulation of the senses and we'd be in a mental mess. In emergency, high-anxiety situations, DP gives us tunnel vision, making us focus on the threat entirely in order to help us save ourselves, so if you perceive your body or the way you feel to be the threat (instead of an outside source like a predator), then you become very conscious of it and yourself, which exacerbates the fear, the depersonalised feeling, and the cycle continues.


----------

