# maybe this is real.



## lucid (Jan 29, 2009)

you never think that all this is just not a disorder and things are really like this. just that some group of people named normal people cant see it. and only people who are in a advanced mental level can feel it and see it. maybe is true maybe all this that we call world is just a hallucination a dream a imagination. created by the human mind maybe we do not think with our minds and our minds think us. maybe a blind man is not blind because he can see his surroundings. maybe we are blind cause our surroundings are blinding us. why we see the whole world with our eyes but we can only see ourselves when we look in a mirror. why we have this body why we stop and think why the world is so colorful. what are colors just a feature that the human mind have and if it is like that what is hiding behind that colors maybe the true morph of the world. maybe we really opened the doors of perception that are inside our minds. and we cannot deal with it. and we want the lie back cause is more comfortable and easy. normal is just an illusion created by the masses by the routine by the structure of the perfect family. maybe what psychiatry' calls psychotic is the true human/animal state of mind or just part of it. why indian mantra masters stay in a mountain half of their life to feel like us to feel that ego death to feel the truth. to feel free from the basic human thought of life. and enter a state thats forbidden for us not forbidden by the government or doctors no we forbid it from our minds cause it don't let us ''function'' ''normally''. how is a perfect state of neurotransmitters chemistry . it does not exist so how we can call our perception imperfect or altered when we really don't know what causes this or what is this. i mean some people believe in god but some say is a massive delusion created by the fear of dead. what if insanity aka mentally ill is like this maybe is a massive delusion created by the fear of going crazy or staying alone with this thoughts. so we cannot let this idea evolve cause we take meds and all kind off stuff that take the lies and the illusion back. maybe i am wrong maybe i am crazy maybe i am to high maybe just maybe............................


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## lucid (Jan 29, 2009)

i know that i had to find a philosophy forum to post this but ive seen that some people here got a very open mind and i just wanna try to share this thoughts with all of u to see what you think and to see if this logic really have some sense..my main language is not english so sorry if i got some misspellings.(=


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

I wouldn't venture down that road. This is a mental illness, and a terrifying one at that. Nothing more. This is a VERY common thought for people that have DP/DR.

From the book 'Unraveling': "Unspeakable thoughts that might sound familiar: ... I am gaining secret enlightenment. There are truths about life that I see too clearly, as if it is more than I can handle. This breakdown brought insights and rather than being signs of illness, my distorted feelings are an awakening. Fearing I'm not strong enough to deal with the awareness, I feel excited and terrified that I may have a special destiny".

Sound familiar?

It goes on: " Part of the explanation is that I was feeding the power of those symptoms every day by harboring bizarre fantasies. What if madness is just too much insight into a reality we're afraid to confront? And with those magical beliefs egging me on, each episode mounted. Believing in magical thoughts will prolong illness. "

Reality is what it once seemed. There is no enlightenment or anything else. You just have to work to get back involved in life and feeling real again. That is the only answer.


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## lucid (Jan 29, 2009)

it sounds really familiar i got to admit. but how someone can get in normal life without knowing what created life. and how we are really supposed to think and feel. eventually i will get tired of thinking like this cause i wont be able to put all the pieces together. and i will try to get out of my mind and get into normal life as u say. but in some way or another i know the pieces fit.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

I ask myself that question each time I have a breakdown. But I have gotten better in the past and when you 'get into' normal life, the questions just seem less important. Don't get me wrong - they are still there, but they were always there before the breakdown as well.

Some things are just beyond our grasp. I have always been an existential thinker. When i'm feeling better, the questions just seem less earth-shattering.


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## lucid (Jan 29, 2009)

thats true cause right now this ideas are just consuming me in a extreme way but i got nothing else to do so i got more time to think about this. i think i got to find something that distract' me like a job or going back to school cause i just stay in home 24/7 and maybe thats why i got all this weird thoughts. and ether way as u say the ideas will always be there no matter what. but i got to admit that i feel better when i don't use all my mental energy to think about this and use it more to feel happy cause 1 thing i know for sure is that happiness does exist cause is an emotion and a feeling. i know this idea will vanish in the lapse of today or this week. i know that what ur saying is truth cause it happens to me 2 when my social life is active i just give less importance to this ideas.(=


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## peachy (Feb 9, 2008)

i've always had problems with this. it's hard being philosophy major and balancing a dissociative disorder that throws you into existential crises almost everyday. for a while, it made me feel happy to be in that state of madness where all i could see anymore was the philosophy behind my thoughts, no longer the disorder. it felt good to not think i was the messed up one for once, that i was seeing more than everybody else. but the truth is, it was just as alienating. and it was just as disordered, if not more. i would go weeks where i would think i was experiencing some "secret enlightenment" that i hadn't even been seeking and then flip a 180 a week later and be back at this forum wondering how to get out of this mess. :roll: how to balance it i dunno. i just know the only relief i've been able to feel are those weeks where i was wrapped in maddening philosophical thoughts. but that's not going to get you out of this state. never will. and so i drop out of college and proceed.


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## lucid (Jan 29, 2009)

yeah its kinda how i feel right now i am not a philosophy student but since i got memory i always question ''life'' in every way. but i am really thinking that i am seen something that the masses are not seen. i wanna share this with u peach since u are experienced in this topic. ok her it goes. derealization have this symptom where you cannot see things in a solid structure. you see things divided in little particles. when i see this teleportation comes to my mind now i know this a little ''power rangers'' silly is other way to say it. this is not philosophy i like to call this metaphysic. teleportation is based and created on the idea that what forms our body and all our surroundings are little atoms that we cannot see and if we look for a way to dived the atoms in our body really fast we can travel or pass solid structures. derealization gave me the ability not just to think in this but to see it i cannot cross walls i am not delusional still. but i can think and imagine it better than anyone who study this subject and have a ''healthy'' perception. ah and i read nishe/ freud/ aldous huxley /aristoteles /platon/ ect since i am 11 years old. and right know even that i wish that my dp/dr go away i got to admit to myself that i can understand their ideas better than ever. and i think that most existential philosophers see dp/dr symptoms as a gift more than a disorder. and i hope that if i do get better i still save in my mind this ideas. i know the teleportation thing is nuts but if u have dr i think you understand what i am saying.(=


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

That's all very buddhist.

Reminds me of what Kerouac said in _the Dharma Bums_:

"You'll be sorry some day. Why don't you ever understand what I'm trying to tell you: it's with your six senses that you're fooled into believing not only that you have six senses, but that you contact an actual outside world with them. If it wasn't for your eyes, you wouldn't see me. If it wasn't for your ears, you wouldn't hear that airplane. If it wasn't for your nose, you wouldn't smell the midnight mint. If it wasn't for your tongue taster, you wouldn't taste the difference between A and B. If it wasn't for your body, you wouldn't feel Princess. There is no me, no airplane, no mind, no Princess, no nothing, you for krissakes do you want to go on being fooled every damn minute of your life?" (Kerouac, 24)

I find it all interesting and very true on a deep level, but it's hard to live a life that way. No matter how convinced you are, you can't combat reality. It's there, whether you like it or not. There are people who try to escape. They're labeled psychotic. At the end of the day, you have to do what is most comfortable and most functional, and depersonalization definitely does _not_ make living easier.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2009)

lucid said:


> why indian mantra masters stay in a mountain half of their life to feel like us to feel that ego death to feel the truth. to feel free from the basic human thought of life. and enter a state thats forbidden for us not forbidden by the government or doctors no we forbid it from our minds cause it don't let us ''function'' ''normally''.


No, the states achieved in meditation, I can promise you, are nothing like Depersonalisation. Dhyana is not some dead state of non being or nothingness, not at all, it is full yet indefinable. And at the end of the day reality is just reality again...the "states" are superficial.
When the ego is slayed by spiritual practices, we don't feel bad, we feel better.

I agree on some level though, and I haven't read all of the posts, but some of what society terms unnatural or mentally ill can be spiritual. Unfortunately even in this day and age people are locked up in mental psych secure units for certain spiritual beliefs, even if those beliefs cause themselves no stress or harm to others. In fact Human rights deal with these cases daily.

I don't think this thread should be in the main forum, I'm not sure where it should be though, possibly the debate section.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2009)

What is real ?

reality is different for everyone, we create our own reality but the system forces their reality upon us.

So what is real ? it's different for everyone, for me dp/dr is real. For others it is not

think about it, do you believe everyone lives in the same reality ?


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2009)

Yes and no.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

There is one reality. There are multiple perceptions of it.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2009)

Conjurus said:


> There is one reality. There are multiple perceptions of it.


Or there is multiple realities/universes but only one mind perceiving them.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

Or we're a colony of sea monkeys in a huge fish tank!


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

I want a cigarette.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2009)

I used to think we were just a microcosmic universe that is no bigger than a grain of sand in the corner of someone elses bigger universe...I still do actually.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

My friend thinks Odin shat us out into existence. He really does.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

Odin? Has he been reading Neil Gaiman?


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

He's nordic.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

makes sense.


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## lucid (Jan 29, 2009)

yeah when i posted this i was like fuck i had to put it in other place but then it comes to my mind when i read some reply's that this is ''personal symptom'' or ''daily life'' with dp/dr. but spirit you got alloooot more time here than i do so if you think this bother other people i can delete it  odin who is odin he was a magician of the german culture or something right. and is funny that you said that spirit i used to think things allot alike like that. i really don't now how people can live normal average life's when they don't know why they are here or why they have that body that their using. and i never read a buddhism book or met someone who practice it in their daily life. and thats why this is interesting maybe we have some deep state of mind that can be appreciated by other cultures. why call things like this disorders or mental illness why not (states of mind) thats what i am trying to say. cause i really don,t wanna take drugs to get out of this i think it was drugs that get me in this mess in the first place. and if i look it as a illness cause if i look it like that i will need the use of chemics to heal. and i don't want that. :roll: cause from what i am gonna heal from a ''feeling'' from an idea'' cause thats what this is.


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## lucid (Jan 29, 2009)

and i know i am kind of making a fool of myself to telling this nonsense to people who have more experience in this than me but i always been a fan on telling people exactly what i am thinking and feeling at the moment(=


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## Dick (Nov 22, 2007)

lucid said:


> and i know i am kind of making a fool of myself to telling this nonsense to people who have more experience in this than me but i always been a fan on telling people exactly what i am thinking and feeling at the moment(=


Nah dude, its great.

I think its very interesting that we all come to such similar conclusions, (or at least have the same ideas). For example:
"I am gaining secret enlightenment. There are truths about life that I see too clearly, as if it is more than I can handle. This breakdown brought insights and rather than being signs of illness, my distorted feelings are an awakening. Fearing I'm not strong enough to deal with the awareness, I feel excited and terrified that I may have a special destiny".

I have thought this exact thing. Is that not very odd? Surely a mere sensory disturbance would not to cause all of us to think the almost identical things? It makes me feel that there is more to DP than just emotional/sensory disruption.

Like I've said in other posts I believe that it involves something "spiritual". That there is some problem with the communicating of the physical mind state to the subjective awareness- which I think is separate, whether it is actually non physical and survives after death I haven't decided yet.

I reckon this is why there are some similarities to the meditative state of pure awareness. During DP some of the links (between mind state and awareness) are cut, or at least severely f.ucked with, where as when done properly there is a smooth transition away from the connections and then back again. Sort of like opening an egg carefully with a spoon to get at the yoke compared with stomping on it... you do get to see the yoke but its mixed with egg shell and splattered all over the place. Probably mixed with some dirt too. :? .


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2009)

lucid said:


> yeah when i posted this i was like flower* i had to put it in other place but then it comes to my mind when i read some reply's that this is ''personal symptom'' or ''daily life'' with dp/dr. but spirit you got alloooot more time here than i do so if you think this bother other people i can delete it  odin who is odin he was a magician of the german culture or something right. and is funny that you said that spirit i used to think things allot alike like that. i really don't now how people can live normal average life's when they don't know why they are here or why they have that body that their using. and i never read a buddhism book or met someone who practice it in their daily life. and thats why this is interesting maybe we have some deep state of mind that can be appreciated by other cultures. why call things like this disorders or mental illness why not (states of mind) thats what i am trying to say. cause i really don,t wanna take drugs to get out of this i think it was drugs that get me in this mess in the first place. and if i look it as a illness cause if i look it like that i will need the use of chemics to heal. and i don't want that. :roll: cause from what i am gonna heal from a ''feeling'' from an idea'' cause thats what this is.


No, no need to delete it at all, it was simply in the wrong forum section, that is all.
It doesn't bother me at all, it may bother some people simply because thinking about these things scares them to death and we don't want that now, do we? That's why we have different sections on the forum, so that those who choose not to read about these topics out of fear don't have to, they simply avoid this section of the forum.

I am a practicing buddhist, have been for many years now, that's why I stated that the states achieved in dhyana (deep meditation) are nothing like Depersonalisation. Sure there are mind states that many people discount and label as psychotic etc..when they are not. I actually partly agree with you in a lot of ways. I think it is the labels such as Depression, Psychosis, Personality disorders, DID, OCD..etc that add more concern and fear to these things. People think they are bad or wrong to feel the way they do which only adds to their fear and mental distress. The labels just put individuals into boxes and don't take into account a persons uniqueness or totality, their full potential. It's almost as if the person becomes the label and nothing else. The labels do not define individuals. The stigma attached to mental illness is caused by that kind of ignorance. Because they are called "mental illnesses", it is deemed wrong to feel a particular way and generally unaccepted by society which leads to further feelings of isolation and desperation. We are human beings, it is not wrong to feel a certain way, to cope a certain way, to experience certain things. Peoples feelings are never WRONG. It's not wrong or bad to feel sad etc...Its human. One of the necessities to healing is to know that it is okay to feel the way we do, that we are not bad because of it. To look past the labels and stigmas. To have self compassion and self acceptance.

Of course, it's your personal choice if you choose not to take medications, as it is your personal choice how you choose to view yourself in relation to your mental state..

BUT Depersonalisation is not a deep and secret mental state of enlightenment, it is not, that's the only thing I argue against. As a spiritual person I have my feet firmly on the ground. It is a illness in the sense that it causes Dis-ease and a lot of distress and impairs daily functioning. A lot of enlightened masters have never ever experienced Depersonalisation.



lucid said:


> and i know i am kind of making a fool of myself to telling this nonsense to people who have more experience in this than me but i always been a fan on telling people exactly what i am thinking and feeling at the moment(=


Not at all, it's very interesting, you're not a fool.


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## flat (Jun 18, 2006)

"Peoples feelings are never WRONG. It's not wrong or bad to feel sad etc...Its human"

I think you are talking about two different "wrongs" here. Yes everything we experience is part of being human so therefore it's natural. It's not "wrong" if it's programmed into us. But on the other hand, if it causes distress to us and others then that is another type of "wrong" because we judge it to be bad and leads us to look for relief from it.

I can never understand the connection between a higher power or consciousness and things that are bad, or disease. It boils down to just how disease came to be. Naturally our dp is bad and nobody wants it. But why is it there? It had to be created. Everything in this universe had to be created and it wasn't by us lowly humans. An example...for christianity, the devil came to be as a result of "free choice" by a particular angel who felt envious of god and challenged him. Well, who gave this angel (lucifer or "light bearer") free choice in the first place? Obviously his creator. And what made him feel badly about his master (god)? Emotions? Who gave him emotions? Especially negative ones? Lucifer didn't create himself so that only leaves god (again). That's my point...you can reduce everything...good or bad...down to the creator. So whoever created this universe or universal consciousness also threw in dp and dr and other diseases as part and parcel of creation. The only question is...why? Who the hell needs disease? It only creates suffering and makes for an imperfect creation.


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## Guest (Feb 6, 2009)

flat said:


> I think you are talking about two different "wrongs" here. Yes everything we experience is part of being human so therefore it's natural. It's not "wrong" if it's programmed into us. But on the other hand, if it causes distress to us and others then that is another type of "wrong" because we judge it to be bad and leads us to look for relief from it.


Feelings cause us distress because WE can't accept them as being human. We aren't programmed to feel anything, we are human, what an odd thing to say. I am talking about ALL feelings. Don't tell me what I am talking about, you are talking about two kinds of wrong and that's your opinion, I was not.

NOBODY punishes us except for ourselves. There is no external God.

I'll pass on the rest.


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## lucid (Jan 29, 2009)

totally true spirit you know that there's a large amount of teenagers with ''mental illness'' that commit suicide because of this labels. they get to stressed out cause they think that they are going crazy and that life is never going 2 be the same again and they simply pull the plug on themselves. you see the (smoking can be harmful for your health) label in the cigarette boxes. i think that psychiatry have to come with this label ( psychiatry may harm your health) and i am not kidding i am serious i believe in the antipsychiatry. and i think that in every contract you make with a psychologist or psychiatrist in the paper have a big waring saying. (PSYCHIATRY KILLS). (PSYCHIATRY CAN GET YOU PARANOID) (PSYCHIATRY MAY HARM YOUR HEALTH) i think that psychiatry can only exist with schizophrenia. and other extreme states of mind that need that particular help. its like medication you wont give morphine to someone with a headache. and flat i understand you i think that ur a very spiritual person in bible terms and thats why your believes of dp molds out like that. i am an existentialist but i respect everyone else's believes and i can live with everyone in peace. dick it is very interesting almost weird how e all come to very similar conclusions about why we are feeling like this.


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## Dick (Nov 22, 2007)

flat said:


> The only question is...why? Who the hell needs disease? It only creates suffering and makes for an imperfect creation.


You could ask that about a million things


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## Alter (Jan 26, 2009)

Spirit said:


> There is no external God.


so certain you are


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## flat (Jun 18, 2006)

Sorry spirit, I didn't mean to sound dictatorial, I was just trying to clarify things that I thought you were confusing. Like this statement:

"We aren't programmed to feel anything, we are human, what an odd thing to say. I am talking about ALL feelings."

I think we ARE programmed for a lot of feelings. The sexual drive is brought on by our hormone explosion during our teenage years and continues not because we need it to survive, like oxygen, but because it's an inborn urge to reproduce and keep our species going. Lonliness is also something we normally try to avoid because we need people to interact with. It's called the herding instinct that is common in animals. Again it's not that we need it to survive. Ditto for love. So why do we feel all these "unnecessary" emotions? If being human has certain characteristics that we all share then doesn't that sound like we all came from the same mold so to speak? But you're right that we have control over these feelings so it's not like we're running on an automatic program...but these feelings do appear on their own and we do what we want with them.

Except for worry and fear of death. Have you ever tried NOT to worry about something or someone that's very important to you? It's impossible. Or NOT running away from a hungry tiger chasing you? Well the tiger thing isn't too common in canada :mrgreen:

I'm not really all that familiar with buddhism but if there is no "external" god that exists as a separate entity from us then this "internal" all encompassing consciousness must have created this universe, itself, and everything that we experience. If we created our own problems then we must be like gods ourselves. For creating things like dp and other diseases is not something the devine consciousness would want to do...or maybe even couldn't do if it was against it's nature.

I hate having all this power


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## lucid (Jan 29, 2009)

maybe not power but we get to see things very different in comparison to how people see it and still be sane enough to talk about it. and i think that is about us to make a choice and decide how we feel about our dp/dr. i was not making a statement when i started this thread i was just sharing an argument. "delusion""= a well structured idea) ''perspective''= a point of view) ''argument''= a process of reasoning or a controversy made up of rational proofs)


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2009)

flat said:


> Sorry spirit, I didn't mean to sound dictatorial, I was just trying to clarify things that I thought you were confusing. Like this statement:
> 
> "We aren't programmed to feel anything, we are human, what an odd thing to say. I am talking about ALL feelings."
> 
> ...


I think that you think that I am confused simply because your opinion is different to mine. I mean it's fine to state your opinion but to tell others what it is that you think they're thinking because of something that you're thinking is not okay for me when I wasn't even thinking it in the first place. Simply just state what it is that you are thinking.
I respect your opinions, please feel free to disagree with mine, but please respect them for what they are.

Of course sexual feelings etc are natural, BUT still some people can't accept their own sexual feelings or other feelings that are perfectly natural, So again, I WAS talking about ALL feelings, whether or not we are programmed to feel them is totally irrelevant to my original point, it had nothing to do with it. Sorry but I'm not sure what point you was trying to make.

I simply think we need to learn to accept our natural feelings and not view them as wrong whether or not we are programmed to feel them or not, doesn't matter.

I'm not going into a debate that will take this off-topic either, but I must say that I prefer the word responsibility rather than "power". Yes human beings have the power to screw up their life-if that's what power is, then you can keep it.

Human beings have a personal responsibility to themselves and others rather than blaming it on an external source, God doesn't even have to come into it. What does it matter who created everything? When human beings simply want to screw it up and abuse it. At the end of the day, it's all just a bunch of opinions, big wig, lets move on.


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## flat (Jun 18, 2006)

Aha! I think I figured this out. I was taking your statements waaaay too literal. For example when you said this:

"Feelings cause us distress because WE can't accept them as being human."

Now I see that what you meant is the pain of feeling alienated because of our disease. Like a stigma being attached to it. I thought our society got over most stigmas like mental illness and homosexuality. But I could be wrong.

Anyway I was just talking about the distress caused by the symptoms of a particular disease...whether it being the physical pain of a migraine or the emotional pain of depression....and that has nothing to do with accepting it as being human.

That's the trouble with message boards. Sometimes you get the wrong impression of the original intent of the poster, unlike a face to face conversation.

"big wig"...that sounds so very british lol


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2009)

flat said:


> That's the trouble with message boards. Sometimes you get the wrong impression of the original intent of the poster, unlike a face to face conversation.
> 
> "big wig"...that sounds so very british lol


Yep, Amen.

I am British yeah, so it would sound British. :wink:


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2009)

Makes sence no LOL


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2009)

Im still the same person said:


> Makes sence no LOL


You know that thing where people are talking to you and you just can't seem to process what they're saying....YEAH that.


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## lucid (Jan 29, 2009)

what do you mean)=


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2009)

lucid said:


> what do you mean)=


 :mrgreen:


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## diagnosedindigo (Feb 10, 2009)

who needs disease? who did this to us? who kills them selves? the answer should always be the same.
your own brain gave you this "ideal" new mentality. You did this yourself in one way or another. and no i dont believe suicides are because of labels but because they realize there was no hope offered to them because they wouldn't have any for themselves. the key is in you. whilst it can open the doors to salvation, it's double edged. 
would you really appreciate all you had if you did not have hell to go through to get there?


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## lucid (Jan 29, 2009)

allot of people commit suicide because of mentally ill labels. i am sure the percentage is higher among teenagers. maybe is because the symptoms the they have, mood swings, hallucinations, depression, yes i am sure is cause they feel like crap and they cannot find hope anywhere . but trust me the idea that they are legally insane in front of society help allot.


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## diagnosedindigo (Feb 10, 2009)

i disagree that they don't kill themselves because of what they are labeled, we're all labeled with something, stoner, punk, prep, insane, white collar. they don't fit in to other areas, but they fit in where they are. besides, i think they have a lot more going on in their head than reputation.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2009)

diagnosedindigo said:


> no i dont believe suicides are because of labels but because they realize there was no hope offered to them because they wouldn't have any for themselves. the key is in you.


People do kill themselves through the _added _ fear of being labeled with a "mental illness", not just because of having a "mental illness". The label does nothing to help and does make matters worse. I agree that we hold our own answers, absolutely, only ourselves at the end of the day can give up on us and choose to end our life, nobody makes us do that.


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## diagnosedindigo (Feb 10, 2009)

what a finely executed statement. now i can see a little into the arguement.


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## newuser20 (Feb 25, 2009)

I see what you're saying.
its far off, but theres wisdom to what you are saying.
you're writing my thoughts.


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## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

You are dead on i assure you.


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