# DPD v enlightenment



## Guest (Dec 12, 2010)

DPD is not Enlightenment.

There are two ways of expressing the same thing.

Positive and negative.

Positive: fill yourself with compassion
Negative: empty yourself of ego

If you fill yourself with compassion for others, you shrink your ego and become more aware.
If you empty yourself of selfishness you open yourself to others.

Both take you out of yourself and increase awareness.

Depersonalisation is closing yourself off, like a mirror curving in on itself. No wonder it's terrifying.
To be alone, and watching your reflection of aloneness.

Enlightenment is relinquishing yourself so you can be fully aware, experiencing life as it happens. Being empty so all life fills you.


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## Onibla (Nov 9, 2010)

DPD is closing yourself off. Enlightenment is opening yourself up.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

I think people can get glimpses of wisdom in these states, for example you can realise things like you are not your emotions and you are not your body which makes people think they are on to something important with dpd, but the problem is that doesn't mean you should repress and ignore your emotions and your body. Most spiritual training involves witnessing your experience including all your emotions in it's entirety and opening up to it not repressing it or trying to control it. Even if you are not aware that you are repressing yourself consciously if you don't feel your emotions and dont feel alive that means at some subconscious level you are resisting experiences and emotions, which means that you are trying to control reality and control is the fundamental grasping of the ego, and if the ego still has that much power you are not enlightened or in some sort of wisdom state.


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## jd99034 (Dec 2, 2008)

Phantasm said:


> DPD is not Enlightenment.
> 
> There are two ways of expressing the same thing.
> 
> ...


How do you know DPD is not enlightenment? Obviously that is your opinion, which is fine- But such a blanket statement like that warrants a response. I like to think of enlightenment as a process, possibly quite painful one for some of us. For all we know, this experience is happening to us because we need it to. We need to see ourselves and the world in a different way. It sure is scary to feel like you are not yourself, or that everything around you isn't as real as you once thought. It's not normal because something has changed and we remember how it used to be. If we were always like this, then we wouldn't know anything was different.

Perhaps it's some kind of lesson we can't grasp with our current ways of looking at the world, ourselves and universe, but if we knew for sure that we were not really who we think we are, what would that mean? Could it be possible that this is in fact a dream, so to speak? Or is this just delusional thinking because we are mentally Ill?

Depending on your view of that enlightenment means, would it be incorrect to assume that the intense sensation of being separated from your self as you used to know it was not an enlightening process? Even if it was extremely unpleasant?

There is so much talk about everyone being one and that our experience here is somewhat of an illusion. More people are waking up to the true nature of reality every day, that to me it seems there might be something to it. After all, where there's smoke, there's fire.

Not too sound too new-age here, but there is so information out there saying that we are in a time of great change and transformation. Could this be part of it? Look at the "100 monkey" study. It basically proves that living things are connected on an unseen level, and when one major leap or shift happens, it moves to every one on the planet in a short period of time regardless of if they know whats happening to them or how.

edit: perhaps this belongs in the debate section


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

jd:
That's a long post - my head hurts!

I know that my comment was abit full-on and sounds arrogant - as you say, a blanket statement.
But I made it out of concern that a young DP sufferer might sink into the mist, thinking it insight.
It is not.
Yesterday I stood in the bus station.
The freezing air cut my fingers as I smoked my cigarette, the traffic roared, the workmen drilled, the people milled, gossiped and shouted.
I felt like bursting out laughing for a few beautiful moments when I forgot myself and my "Headgaurd" (the imploded head view I watch life through) was gone.
It was all almost "clear" and alomost "real".


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## jd99034 (Dec 2, 2008)

Phantasm said:


> jd:
> That's a long post - my head hurts!
> 
> I know that my comment was abit full-on and sounds arrogant - as you say, a blanket statement.
> ...


I understand your concern. I was a young person, 14 actually, when DP first reared it's ugly head into my reality at full force.

I had to leave school temporarily as I dealt with what was happening to me, as many here do. The thought that it was some sort of insightful spiritual awakening was the last thing on my mind. It was only after I experienced what a complete scam and racket mainstream psycho-pharmacology was that I began looking for different answers.

One thing led to another, years went by, I got better, I got worse. life just happened in a way that it wouldn't have happened otherwise. I can look back and see how living with chronic DP affected every choice I made, and what resulted from those choices. I became a very introspective person and took an interest in many different things during my continuing search for answers. I started to ask why more and more, at first only trying to figure out things about myself. But that "asking why" did't go away. I suddenly had questions about things that "normal people," just don't think or worry about. What good is going through life without wonder, with your head pointed at the ground? To me, that's more robotic than the feeling DP or DR gives you.

12 years later I look at the person have become, the horrible experiences I have had, the views I have acquired, and I wouldn't change a thing.

You talk about "positive" and "negative" in your post. I think it's important to remember, (for the young DP sufferers that you're concerned about) that the negative experiences are what are really important. Without them, the positive ones wouldn't mean anything. They are what you learn the most from. (Provided, it is usually in retrospect.) You need that polarity to give the opposite its value.

I think back to how much "self-awareness" I possessed before the DP. Literally, none at all. I had no self-awareness. Because of DP I became hyper-aware, hyper-conscious, hypersensitive... It changed me. Change isn't always pleasant. In fact, most of us if given the chance will always resist it and do everything in our power to avoid it.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

I think that dp creates a crisis in that a lot of the things and beliefs which gave life stability and concreteness have crumbled so it's like we are floating through life and in a way there is a certain truth in that because in reality nothing is fixed and there is no security and everything is in flux. What we have had is a shift in perception so that we see that way that we used to view life is not a fixed fact and that is a very scary realisation. The Shamans call this a change in the "assemblage point" and sometimes use drugs to purposely create this change, which is why it is common for Cannabis to cause this. The thing is this change in perception and this realisation is not enlightenment as such it is just the first step or the first shock which can propel you on the path to find what is real and what is meaningful, if you think that what you have realised is the ultimate truth then you have fallen at the first hurdle in my opinion.

It's like in the Matrix but instead of a choice we have by accident taken the red pill and realised much of what makes up "normal" life is not as solid or as real as most people realise, but it scares us and involves a lot of suffering so we want to go back and take the blue pill and go back to the security of our old lives and perceptions, buf that wish to go back just causes us more suffering which is why people say the only option is to accept and learn to live with it.


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## jd99034 (Dec 2, 2008)

Nice, I like what you said about the matrix. Also what I have learned is that I know basically next to nothing, never mind some ultimate truth. But it has started me on a search and changed the way I question things is what I'm saying.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

jd99034 said:


> Nice, I like what you said about the matrix. Also what I have learned is that I know basically next to nothing, never mind some ultimate truth. But it has started me on a search and changed the way I question things is what I'm saying.


Wasnt it Socrates who said that the only true knowledge is to know that you know nothing?
We are seekers.


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## jd99034 (Dec 2, 2008)

Phantasm said:


> Wasnt it Socrates who said that the only true knowledge is to know that you know nothing?
> We are seekers.


Very well put.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2010)

http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html

Chapter 1 of the Tao Te Ching:

(Bold/Italics Added for Emphasis)

"*1*

The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

_*Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.*_"

Another way of saying Darkness in translation is "Unknown". So that goes with what you guys are saying here. Unknown Within Unknown is The Gateway to All Understanding.


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## Michaek (May 17, 2010)

"If you want to become full, 
first let yourself become empty...
When the ancient Masters said, 
"If you want to become whole, 
then first let yourself be broken," 
they weren't using empty words. 
All who do this will be made complete"

-Lao Tzu, "Tao Te Ching"

We must realize ourselves and the universe as nothing before we can realize it as something

..something being what?

Something being magnificence, all-knowing, all powerfull, pure love.

Some call this enlightenment.

"DP" is the first step to enlightenment.


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## natebookd (Jan 2, 2011)

Or we are just mentally ill and religions, even if from a culture you were not born into is just made up BS.


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## Clark (Jan 18, 2011)

Pablo said:


> I think that dp creates a crisis in that a lot of the things and beliefs which gave life stability and concreteness have crumbled so it's like we are floating through life and in a way there is a certain truth in that because in reality nothing is fixed and there is no security and everything is in flux. What we have had is a shift in perception so that we see that way that we used to view life is not a fixed fact and that is a very scary realisation. The Shamans call this a change in the "assemblage point" and sometimes use drugs to purposely create this change, which is why it is common for Cannabis to cause this. The thing is this change in perception and this realisation is not enlightenment as such it is just the first step or the first shock which can propel you on the path to find what is real and what is meaningful, if you think that what you have realised is the ultimate truth then you have fallen at the first hurdle in my opinion.
> 
> It's like in the Matrix but instead of a choice we have by accident taken the red pill and realised much of what makes up "normal" life is not as solid or as real as most people realise, but it scares us and involves a lot of suffering so we want to go back and take the blue pill and go back to the security of our old lives and perceptions, buf that wish to go back just causes us more suffering which is why people say the only option is to accept and learn to live with it.


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## Felicity (Feb 7, 2011)

Enlightenment is usually attained through meditation, particularly meditation that focuses on peace and love. Meditation, therefore, could bring about not only a loss of ego, but a simultaneous gain of activity in the parts of the brain associated with positive feelings. 
It could be that DP happens so fast, through drugs or due to stress, that the ego just slips away, with no other part of the brain developed enough to "take over" for it. The result would be that DP leaves the mind truly blank, while "enlightenment" is more like remodeling it to function more harmoniously. Just a theory


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2011)

Felicity said:


> Enlightenment is usually attained through meditation, particularly meditation that focuses on peace and love. Meditation, therefore, could bring about not only a loss of ego, but a simultaneous gain of activity in the parts of the brain associated with positive feelings.
> It could be that DP happens so fast, through drugs or due to stress, that the ego just slips away, with no other part of the brain developed enough to "take over" for it. The result would be that DP leaves the mind truly blank, while "enlightenment" is more like remodeling it to function more harmoniously. Just a theory


I can really relate to this theory.


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2011)

Difference between enlightenment and DP?

DP exists, enlightenment doesn't.

"Enlightenment" is what? A monk in tibet sitting all day long?

Living present is a great thing, but it's not some condition like DP. You're present because you WANT to be present, but you're in DP because there's something you need to resolve. It's more outside your conscious choice.


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## She_Can't_Fix_Herself (Jul 11, 2011)

Pablo said:


> I think that dp creates a crisis in that a lot of the things and beliefs which gave life stability and concreteness have crumbled so it's like we are floating through life and in a way there is a certain truth in that because in reality nothing is fixed and there is no security and everything is in flux. What we have had is a shift in perception so that we see that way that we used to view life is not a fixed fact and that is a very scary realisation. The Shamans call this a change in the "assemblage point" and sometimes use drugs to purposely create this change, which is why it is common for Cannabis to cause this. The thing is this change in perception and this realisation is not enlightenment as such it is just the first step or the first shock which can propel you on the path to find what is real and what is meaningful, if you think that what you have realised is the ultimate truth then you have fallen at the first hurdle in my opinion.
> 
> It's like in the Matrix but instead of a choice we have by accident taken the red pill and realised much of what makes up "normal" life is not as solid or as real as most people realise, but it scares us and involves a lot of suffering so we want to go back and take the blue pill and go back to the security of our old lives and perceptions, buf that wish to go back just causes us more suffering which is why people say the only option is to accept and learn to live with it.


wow


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## BobbyG (Mar 3, 2012)

Pablo said:


> I think people can get glimpses of wisdom in these states, for example you can realise things like you are not your emotions and you are not your body which makes people think they are on to something important with dpd, but the problem is that doesn't mean you should repress and ignore your emotions and your body. Most spiritual training involves witnessing your experience including all your emotions in it's entirety and opening up to it not repressing it or trying to control it. Even if you are not aware that you are repressing yourself consciously if you don't feel your emotions and dont feel alive that means at some subconscious level you are resisting experiences and emotions, which means that you are trying to control reality and control is the fundamental grasping of the ego, and if the ego still has that much power you are not enlightened or in some sort of wisdom state.


 Enlightment is not the RECOGNITION of NO-SELF or NOTHINGNESS. It is the realization of your connection with GOD (child of God) and your individuality/unity with the Creator (God).


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## orca (Nov 21, 2011)

I like this thread, a lot of good views and points.. 
I know that I still can find peace in DP/DR to a certain extent because after all it's put me through I Am thankful for it all, it's changed me,

Its made me realise how toxic my ego has been.
I now see why I should never judge anyone for any reason and that the best thing for me is to be mindful and love and accept everything.
I sort of feel it was no accident in obtaining DP, and because I was really on a bad track before hand dp it has now given me a positive insight into life.

For me I see this as being a possible first step to "enlightenment"


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## kate_edwin (Aug 9, 2009)

No dp is not enlightenment. Blanket statement or not, not opinion. It just isn't. Many people
say bad things that happen to them were a step towards finding themselves or enlightenment or whatever but that doesn't make the bad thing a part of it, the road is not the destination or the journey, it's just a fork in the road


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## Montezuma2Tripoli (Jan 15, 2012)

orca said:


> I like this thread, a lot of good views and points..
> I know that I still can find peace in DP/DR to a certain extent because after all it's put me through I Am thankful for it all, it's changed me,
> 
> Its made me realise how toxic my ego has been.
> ...


I think that was one of the beautiful things about dp for me. However, the problem with this is that I became almost too compassionate to the point of becoming passive. I'm curious to see though if the many meaningful lessons we obtain during dp are carried back with us into our healthy states once dp subsides.


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## aquabella (Sep 16, 2011)

Thank you for conveying so many thoughts and feelings I have had with my own experience of DP/DR; I came to this community to reach out and try to convey a similar message. I assume this to be a place where I can feel safe, fully expressed and related to, amidst the occasional turmoil in my brain. I assume we should all have these gifts upon becoming a part of this community--most of all, if in a moment of a downward spiral.

For those effectively in the 'hell' of DP or in a moment of downward spiral, please consider acting 'as-if' with as much awareness as you can muster. The 'act-as-if' tool has helped me out quite a bunch. It's not a simple task to motivate into, but gets easier with practice. Don't dwell on the perceived importance of whether you FEEL anything or not, acting 'as-if' you ARE safe, fully expressed and related to, in this moment, now, is what's important.

Acting 'as-if' could be a useful tool; and at the very least, help you to get through (the moment) by helping you to break the state of self-perpetuating negative indulgences (ie. abuse of self, others, sex and/or drugs). It's the whole principal of "commit the action and the mind will follow." Resisting the urge to check back in with your DP/DR and KEEP BRINGING YOURSELF BACK to acting 'as-if' can be a useful tool to help you through these most effed up of moments. This process is self-correcting in that: with diligence and positive commitment, relief will come.

The whole idea of trying to commit our thoughts/minds (and not the action) to something is pretty redundant to us DP/DR, esp. when the thoughts become self-indulgent/self-destructive. I'd like to believe that we are all here to help ourselves and each other not just to be understanding of one another, but to challenge one another toward our best possible outcome - RECOVERY! I challenge you to take heart and act 'as-if' your best possible outcome WILL happen for you

I am willing to do almost anything to beat the negative obstacles of this DP/DR sucker, even it that means I must submit to it. And I have!

I admit that I DO have days that I'm unsure of going into a situation, but part of the task of being developmentally 'right' with myself is to act with assured-ness, anyway, AND DIVE INTO THE EXPERIENCE!! I find that I lose track of my DP within minutes and find that hours go by ACTUALLY enjoying myself. One of my favorite quotes by Joseph Campbell is "If you are falling, prepare to dive".

With the 'Act-as-if" concept in mind, here's something that could be well-aligned with your principle. I wrote this for my new, not yet publicized, blog a while ago about developmental stages of development. 
------------------
There is a lot of misinformation and confusion about DP/DR and its possible relationship to spiritual and/or religious development. There are numerous developmental theories that have been created, identified with and practiced: psychological/cognitive, social/moral, and spirituality/religion. Most, if not all, of them describe and identify a stage of or state in development that epitomizes, even embodies, the DP/DR experience.

This post is strictly an unbiased look at these developmental stages and their states where DP/DR is present. I have done a lot of research on DP/DR in hopes to find relief from my own DP/DR struggles. I don't advocate, condone or align my self any one theory or philosophy, but have found some comfort and a more playful attitude toward reality discovering the similarities between them and the mythos within them all. The discovery of connection may well be what is helping me on my way to recovery.

To use an example of one of the such possible theories, I have chosen to contrast Depersonalization with relationship to Buddhist states and stages toward attaining enlightenment.

*States - Termed 'Jhana' in Buddhism - loosely translated, means: 
condition/conditions/conditioning, where you are "at" in mind and/or body--state of being, area of concentration, learning/training/, task or practice, perceived experience (non judgmental feelings/emotions), concentration, acceptance vs. resistance levels of a situation, meditation. Jhanas are neither good or bad and can be used as tools for self-reflection.

Different states (Jhanas) can be eased into or quickly 'triggered' in ANY stage and at any time. Jhanas are temporary - distortions in conceptual time and space; temporal momentum interruption - and unfixed, meaning more than one Jhana can be experienced at a time and more than one person can share the same state individually and/or with one another even if the internal/external conditions which triggered them are very different.

Where, when, how, and why a certain Jhana is experienced depends on where our awareness is concentrated: internal/external environment. The intensity of the Jhana largely depends on the level of ease vs. difficulty with and acceptance vs. resistance of the lessons being learned in the current Nana.

**Stages - Termed 'Nana' in Buddhism - loosely translated, means: 
'knowledge of', insight, conviction and wisdom. A Nana is a marking point or turning point of spiritual transition (or cognitive development). Once a stage (Nana) is completed it becomes embodied knowledge and you will not back slide into an earlier (or lower) stage.

Think: you 'know' how to ride a bike, tie your shoes, recite the alphabet - There is no longer a need to concentrate on or practice doing - you just DO it. There are approx. 16 Nanas -- Nanas 1 through 4
are the lower Nanas and are considered stages of Self 'awakening'/Knowledge of Being Self as Self and is the process of becoming aware of spirituality (the Divine) as we awaken to and gain 
knowledge of our identifications of Self. Whereas the highers Nanas, 5 through 15, are considered to be spiritually awakened stages - practitioners in these stages assert well-defined, working or functioning assumptions in a philosophy, opinion or spiritual belief and is the process of becoming spiritually 'enlightened'.

The long, sometimes difficult, even downright frustrating (this is a state/jhana) process of enlightenment ends at the completion of the 15th Nana where "Nirvana" is attained. The 16 Nana IS "enlightenment"; enlightenment is "IS-ness" embodied and is more of a perpetual state of being than it is a stage of development.

Here's two great links on the stages:

http://www.interactivebuddha.com/Nanas% ... ablep1.pdf
http://www.buddhanet.net/knowledg.htm

I'm going to make a bold statement...Depersonalization is NOT spiritual enlightenment! It is not even defined as a stage (Nana) of enlightenment. According to many sects of Buddhism, the initial 
experiences of the DP/DR state (jhana) are short in length (minutes to days/weeks) and sometimes fleeting; they begin to occur in the 2nd Nana (the stage of cause and effect); yet are still temporary. After the 2nd stage, when you have embodied the lesson of 'cause and effect' and learn to take personal responsibility for EVERYTHING in life that your 'self' creates, the 3rd Nana comes in to challenge that lesson with the Three Characteristics: impermanence, suffering,and no-self (very DP/DR, No?).

The 3rd nana is characterized by the words deconstruction and de-condition. The DP/DR moments are long (weeks, months years), seems like a permanent condition, as the moments are chronic and are not fleeting. In the 3rd Nana the DP/DR Jhana, too, is EXTREMELY dark, cryptic, and lonely--BUT WORSE, because there doesn't seem to be an end to it! But, IMHO, this is the lesson--Learning to 'let go' of your previous mental construct and its conditioning.

Up until this point all of what you "know" about the universe is your sensory input and has been polar in opposition (good/bad, right/wrong, black/white, male/female). With (the state of) DP/DR messing up your sensory input (emotions, feelings, sense of self, etc...) you are forced to learn to know the universe as it is in itself (for example: do you "know" the apple is sweet and juicy? No... but you are inclined to ASSUME it is).

Nothing is 'personal' in DP, so you are forced into learning how to "know" a thing without interpreting, judging, labeling, identifying or picking it apart; you simply see, touch, taste, smell, hear (and to some - intuit) without judgement and without emotion.

When you 'feel' neither good or bad about something or indifferent about it, you are at the beginning of passing through the 3rd Nana--this is the experience of non-duality (be mindful that indifference is NOT apathy; apathy is a negative state of feeling, is depression and NOT DP).

At the very base, this Nana teaches realignment with the deepest of instinct and sense recognition (gut feelings): away from/toward, repel/propel, repulse/impulse, safety/risk. This may be a lesson to learn to have more trust in or belief in our self from a physiological perspective (remember...in DP/DR emotions and feelings no longer exist; or seem to - this is psychological). These lessons start with 'self' and in progression extends to the universe upon entering into the 4th Nana.

This Nana is called the Arising and Passing Away of things (AP for short), as impermanence and fleeting experiences become more and more apparent in a 'factual' way rather than in its previously futile way. The build up to 'letting go' of the futility is the most difficult, frustrating and tumultuous to persevere in. It can take months to many years to pass through the 4th Nana and is surpassed in what is "the AP Event".

Perceived by many to be nearly impossible to get through and has been described as: like a nervous breakdown, psychotic break, drastic shift in consciousness, etc. This is also known as "The Dark Night of the Soul" (see St. John of the Cross, see below); many seekers who've passed through this point would encourage the dark night experience if they had only knew what it was.

According to Shinzen Young, "This phenomenon, within the Buddhist tradition, is sometimes referred to as 'falling into the Pit of the Void.' It entails an authentic and irreversible insight into Emptiness and No Self. What makes it problematic is that the person interprets it as a bad trip. Instead of being empowering and fulfilling, the way Buddhist literature claims it will be, it turns into the opposite. In a sense, it's Enlightenment's Evil Twin. This is serious but still manageable through intensive, perhaps daily, guidance under a competent and knowledgeable teacher. In some cases it takes months or even years to fully metabolize, but the results are almost always highly positive."

More from Shinzen Young explaining the dark night:
http://shinzenyoung.blogspot.com/2011/1 ... night.html

A great podcast (and transcript) describing the dark night:
http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2011/09/bg ... t-project/

In most sects of Buddhism, it is not custom to teach the stages of development, as higher stages are a complete mystery to those in lower stages of development and the path is slightly different for everyone. Enlightenment can NOT be a goal, but a journey to. You can 'know' where you've come from and have an idea of where your destination ends (in enlightenment), but you must carve your path IN THE MOMENT while in/on the journey. The lessons become knowledge at self reflection and many moments of introspection (or meditation)--you can not learn from a past moment if consumed with ideals of the future.

If you align with Buddhist philosophy, a negative experience of DP could very well be an inability to cope with emptiness, non-duality, and no-self introduced at the beginning of the 3rd Nana. It could also be that you are lost and in the 'thicke' of the dark night at the end of the 4th Nana. The experience will only gets worse if not dealt with an air of knowing that: THIS, TOO, SHALL PASS!! It is much easier to navigate the dark night with a knowledgeable mentor, coach or friend.

With some relief and clarity on the other side of the AP Event and the dark night, the letting go of [email protected]#$% enables the 'Stream Winner'(one who surpasses these seemingly negative events) is now welcomed, or pulled into, the stream; entering into the natural and REAL 'flow' of life. This is "stream entry" at the 5th Nana and is considered in Buddhism to be the first (real) stage toward spiritual enlightenment and often mistaken for enlightenment in itself.

At this point, a Buddhist practitioner will cease to reincarnate into lower life forms (plants/animals) and will reincarnate only into human form, so the divine spirit may continue it's journey to Nirvana. From this point, a common experience is the recognition that 'self' and spirit are Divine and experiences of 'one-ness' with ALL things (even non-existence) is persistent. It is estimated that only a small percentage of the worlds population even get this far, let alone any farther (at least in this life-according to reincarnation).

From stages 3 to 5, DP/DR is a common state. Some pass through these stages in months and others it may take decades. What is important, is just to know that DP/DR is a 'state of being'. The sooner we let go of what was and stop being nostalgic for our 'conditional' past, the sooner we can embrace and even indulge in what IS.

Because polarity in constructs are deconstructed in later stages, those who claim any 'path' (Buddhism or any other developmental growth path) as evil or wrong is still, quite possibly, struggling with passing the 2nd or dealing with the 3rd Nana (this is where most people get stuck). In later stages, judgement and polarity become irrelevant in self dialogue.

If Buddhism is 'your thing', I can not stress this enough --- It is IMPORTANT to have a guide, prior path walker, teacher (master), who knows his/her stuff and can effectively communicate the 'path' to you and help you to positively (or non-judgmentally) interpret the meaning within your journey (this is where the Theory of Positive Integration by Kazimierz Dąbrowski was really helpful--see below). Don't dismiss anything all willy-nilly without asking the questions: who? what? when? where? why? and most importantly HOW--ie. How might this this path (course of action) affect me? How do these states/stages affect me/others? How do I get through the hard parts? How do I reach out when I need help?

If Buddhism doesn't work for you....fine...move on! Stop lingering on what doesn't work and get to finding something that does. 1) Find a path (developmental theory) that makes sense to you and act-as-if you KNOW where you are in its' stages. 2) Align yourself with that path and work it as long as it works for you. 3) Move forward on the path when the lesson/s have been revealed to you (when you KNOW something). 4) Find the connections that exist in ALL of it. 5) Stay on the path as long as it makes sense, otherwise...MOVE ON to another theory.

Other theoretical stages of growth to consider:

**St. John of the Cross
"Dark Night of the Soul" (Spanish: La noche oscura del alma) is the title of a poem written by 16th-century Spanish poet and Roman Catholic mystic Saint John of the Cross.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_night_of_the_soul

His poem narrates the journey of the soul from its bodily home to its union with God. The journey occurs during the night, which represents the hardships and difficulties the soul meets in detachment from the world and reaching the light of the union with the Creator. There are 
several steps in this night, which are related in successive stanzas. The main idea of the poem can be seen as the painful experience that people endure as they seek to grow in spiritual maturity and union with God. The poem is divided into two books that reflect the two phases of the dark night. The first is a purification of the senses. The second and more intense of the two stages is that of the purification of the spirit, which is the less common of the two. 'Dark Night of the Soul' also describes the ten steps on the ladder of mystical love, which was previously described by Saint Thomas Aquinas and also in part by Aristotle.

**Kazimierz Dąbrowski
Theory of Positive Disintegration (TPD) - Theoretical framework of personality development which views psychological tension and anxiety as necessary for growth. These "disintegrative" processes are therefore seen as "positive," whereas people who fail to go through positive disintegration may remain for their entire lives in a state of "primary integration." Advancing into disintegration and into the higher levels of development is predicated on having developmental potential, including overexcitabilities and above-average reactions to stimuli.
2.1 Level I: Primary Integration
2.2 Level II: Unilevel Disintegration
2.3 Level III: Spontaneous Multilevel Disintegration
2.4 Level IV: Directed Multilevel Disintegration
2.5 Level V: Secondary Integration

FOR MORE ON POSITIVE DISINTIGRATION:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_ ... ntegration

**Wittenberg
identifies five metaphysic characteristics
1. A self image crisis, the person alternates between responding to superego demands (parental/authority) and adhering to one's ego- ideal.
2. Brief states of depersonalization, a person experiences a loss of identity. Accompanied by series of disembodiment, isolation and estrangement.
3. End of role playing. Reality sets in. Often accompanied by depression.
4. Awareness of time continuity. The sense of time passage become more acute. It includes developing the ability to allocate and utilize time in one's activities, plans or defenses.
5. Search for a partner. the young adult chooses a love object for 'permanent affiliation.'

**Erik Erikson 
Devoted his research to defining the eight stages of life. Young adulthood, according to this model, falls in the sixth stage, "intimacy vs. isolation." The developing person up until that time has been 
forming his identity. There is a lack of feeling of self- sameness over time, which is important for the sense of identity, is fractured at many points of development. The fragmentation of the sense of self is common during the acute stages like stage 6. This stage can only occur after the person has successfully completed the other 5 stages and often, chronology of age is not the most important consideration-maturity is.

**Robert White 
Is an important theorist who did extensive clinical research with young adults. He identifies five "growth trends" of young adult development: 
(1) stabilizing of ego identity or feeling confident within the newly found identity and not as apt to succumb to outside pressures
(2) freeing of personal relationships in terms of dealing with problems in the "present," they are thus able to become more sensitive to another person because they are less tied with their personal history
(3) deepening of interests and the enjoyment of life which shapes a person over time and is "tied to both competence and commitment
(4) humanizing of values distinguishing "between abstract morality of adolescence and the more functional morality of young adulthood" 
(5) expansion of caring the stage of the "growth trend" 
This theory is closely related to Erikson's idea of "generativity"

**Carl Jung
Recommends getting in touch with ones 'Anima/Animus' (alternate gender identity) as much as possible. Otherwise depersonalization, heightened anxiety, tension, and agitation can take over. If not dealt with correctly, the Shadow self will have difficulty in reconciling itself with the world. Introverted types are more adversely affected and would benefit most from psychotherapy, as they are more likely to repress than express.

Others developmental stages to look up:

Maslow's hierarchy of needs
Ken Wilber on development of self
Kohlberg's stages of moral development
Loevinger's stages of ego development
Piaget's theory of cognitive development
Neo-Piagetian theories of cognitive development
Psychosexual development
Model of Hierarchical Complexity
Sociocultural evolution (cultural development)
Fowler's stages of faith development
Stages of Team development
Spiral Dynamics social growth development
"Mystical Love" described by Saint Thomas Aquinas (also in part by Aristotle)
Freud - oral,anal, phallic - growth related to sexual instinct
More...More...More...Just look!!!

Sending explosive potential joy...

aquabella is on tw @lonidoddi

******Questions, comments and clarifications welcome*******

Peace and all that jazz...


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## Matthew (May 21, 2012)

kate_edwin said:


> No dp is not enlightenment. Blanket statement or not, not opinion. It just isn't. Many people
> say bad things that happen to them were a step towards finding themselves or enlightenment or whatever but that doesn't make the bad thing a part of it, the road is not the destination or the journey, it's just a fork in the road


Enlightenment has nothing to do with 'good' and 'bad' feelings, that is pop-spirituality. Enlightenment is the unveiling of truth.

There is no ultimate state of enlightenment. There are however plenty of people who proclaim this idea to upkeep their 'enlightened identity' and 'spiritual and intellectual superiority'. There are also those who are addicted to euphoric feelings as an addict is addicted to heroin. Both of these examples are defence mechanisms against facing the truth.

There is only a spiritual journey full of many different states, stages and experiences. Waking up has always been known as an often frightening transformative process full of periods of dissolution and fear (and often sheer terror), and also periods of deep insight and elation.

"Enlightenment isn't about imaging figures of light, but about making the darkness conscious" - Carl Jung.


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## Matthew (May 21, 2012)

*delete double post*


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

I can talk with some confidence about the inter-connected nature of spiritual practices and depersonalization as that is exactly what led me into this state which I've been living with for ages.

There is a connection, I just don't know what yet. Please let me know if anyone finds out.


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## kpaiva (Dec 17, 2010)

Phantasm said:


> DPD is not Enlightenment.
> 
> There are two ways of expressing the same thing.
> 
> ...


When explained like that, you can actually see that they are (from this view) very different. Enlightenment is removing the ego, while DPD is (in a sense) being trapped by it.


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## kpaiva (Dec 17, 2010)

Midnight said:


> I can talk with some confidence about the inter-connected nature of spiritual practices and depersonalization as that is exactly what led me into this state which I've been living with for ages.
> 
> There is a connection, I just don't know what yet. Please let me know if anyone finds out.


I agree with you on this. I'd love to start a message conversation with you.


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