# this is why we have dp



## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

This is what too much dopamine does-
Disorientation and/or confusion
Anxiety, severe paranoia, and/or panic attacks
Hypervigilance or increased sensitivity to perceptual stimuli, accompanied by significantly increased threat detection
Hypomania or full-blown mania
Derealization and/or depersonalization
Hallucinations and/or delusions
Thought disorder or disorganized thinking
Cognitive and memory impairment potentially to the point of retrograde or anterograde amnesia
Delirium and/or insanity
Myoclonus or involuntary and intense muscle twitching
Hyperreflexia or overresponsive/overreactive reflexes
Syncope or fainting or loss of consciousness
Seizures or convulsions
Neurotoxicity or brain damage
Coma and/or death

This is what too little serotonin does-
Depressed
Nervous/anxious
Worrier
Fears/phobias
Negative/pessimistic
Irritable/impatient/edgy
Obsessive compulsive tendency
Think about the same things over & over again
Self destructive, masochistic or suicidal thoughts/plans
Low self esteem/confidence
Anger/rage/explosive behavior/assaultive
Sleep problems/light sleeper
Crave sugar/carbohydrates/alcohol/marijuana
Use these substances to improve mood & relax
Feel worse in and dislike dark weather
Chronic pain (e.g. headaches, backaches, fibromyalgia)
PMS
Antidepressants or 5-HTP improve mood
Family history of depression/anxiety/OCD/eating disorders

the treatment that danny and i have been pushing like illegal drugs, safely, and naturally raises serotonin levels, which in turn regulates dopamine levels, thus correcting the imbalance, thus ending DP.


----------



## Rein (Apr 29, 2008)

Than what do you think about St John's wort?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_John%27s_wort


----------



## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

i'll have to look into it further, to see how much could help, and how much could hurt.


----------



## York (Feb 26, 2008)

St. Johns worth should never be taken if you take other medication as it lessens the effect of certain meds.

And Tommygunz, I'm sorry, but what you say, just isn't the truth... Wouldn't we all wish it was that simple.


----------



## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

anny, i understand your skepticism, but what i have said about dopamine and serotonin, is not only the truth, but it is scientific fact. everything i have posted so far has been taken from well established neuroscience journals and published clinical testing articles. none of this was based on their theories, it was all based on their results. everything pertaining to what i have posted, is based on the results they have proven.
however always keeping on open mind, i want to hear your argument against my theory.


----------



## edward_morden (Oct 12, 2009)

I have a question.. if everything is dependent on these seretonin and dopamin... how could it be that I did so many psychoactive journeys (mushrooms etc.) during depersonalisation but I always returned to the same irreal state of mind? That makes no sense (Mushrooms etc. even weed also creates huge differences in your seretonin and dopamin so why do it always return to the state of before?)

Besides.. if its stated in well established neuroscience journals that too much dopamin causes Derealization and/or depersonalization, why didnt anybody suggest these supplements to Derealization and/or depersonalization-sick people?
Makes no sense to me.


----------



## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

Well edward, Part of the answer to that could be that most research (I am excluding the great work that NODID etc do) is funded or in someway connected to the big pharmaceutical-companies. They wouldnt want research that rendered their poisionous antidepressants/antipsychotics obsolete. Although it?s hardly a secret that there are alternatives to their stuff. Dont qoute me on this but im pretty sure it has been proven that Excercise and healthy food and changed thinking/behavioral patterns is superior to say for example Prozac against "classical" depression.


----------



## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

edward_morden said:


> I have a question.. if everything is dependent on these seretonin and dopamin... how could it be that I did so many psychoactive journeys (mushrooms etc.) during depersonalisation but I always returned to the same irreal state of mind? That makes no sense (Mushrooms etc. even weed also creates huge differences in your seretonin and dopamin so why do it always return to the state of before?)


Because a massive shock to your serotonin system probably wouldn't be therapeutic.
And why would you keep using psychedelics after developing DP/DR?


----------



## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

Tommygunz said:


> This is what too much dopamine does-
> Disorientation and/or confusion
> Anxiety, severe paranoia, and/or panic attacks
> Hypervigilance or increased sensitivity to perceptual stimuli, accompanied by significantly increased threat detection
> ...


Can you cite the research implicating dopamine and serotonin in DP?
And why do you think raising serotonin with supplements would be more effective than using SSRI's?


----------



## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

yeah i'll have to hunt it down again, but ssri's have the ability to mimic dopamine receptors and stimulate dopamine activity, whereas raising serotonin levels naturally has the potential to regulate dopamine levels.


----------



## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

Egodeath wouldnt you rather boost your serotonin naturally (Hell, tryptophane which turns into serotonin is in turkey) if you had the possibility rather than take a pill that messes with your receptors in all kinds of ways.


----------



## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine_r ... _inhibitor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin
http://www.mcmanweb.com/dopamine.html
http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/c ... deficiency

here a few links that got me headed in the direction im on.


----------



## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

Inzom said:


> Egodeath wouldnt you rather boost your serotonin naturally (Hell, tryptophane which turns into serotonin is in turkey) if you had the possibility rather than take a pill that messes with your receptors in all kinds of ways.


Not necessarily. By "naturally" you mean ingesting a bunch of substances that are hard to find in quantity in nature, but are conveniently available in pill form courtesy of GNC. And "supplements" don't need to be approved by the FDA. It might be preferable in this case, it might not. If Tommygunz is right, then it probably would.


----------



## jfromaz (Mar 23, 2009)

I think this explains why bupropin (wellbutrin) made me significantly worse... quoted; _Wellbutrin is a Selective Dopamine Reuptake Inhibitor, which means that wellbutrin makes more dopamine available to the receptors in the brain._
Wellbutrin obviously works best for people who are dopamine deficient, which I don't think that is the case for people with DP/DR, at least I know it wasn't the case for me, as wellbutrin increased my anxiety levels tenfold.

I'm starting prozac today, based on the 30 seconds worth of google research I just did... quote; _Animal studies indicate that Prozac can suppress dopamine activity_

..and obviously increases serotonin levels, as we all know is responsible for_ mood, emotion,_ sleep and appetite..

I think it will help me, subtly, to make me feel more like myself again.


----------



## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

Notsure said:


> I think this explains why bupropin (wellbutrin) made me significantly worse... quoted; _Wellbutrin is a Selective Dopamine Reuptake Inhibitor, which means that wellbutrin makes more dopamine available to the receptors in the brain._
> Wellbutrin obviously works best for people who are dopamine deficient, which I don't think that is the case for people with DP/DR, at least I know it wasn't the case for me, as wellbutrin increased my anxiety levels tenfold.
> 
> I'm starting prozac today, based on the 30 seconds worth of google research I just did... quote; _Animal studies indicate that Prozac can suppress dopamine activity_
> ...


Hold on everyone. I'm not trying to knock anyone's theories, but you should probably wait for a study to come out before deciding that high dopamine + low serotonin = depersonalization and adjusting your pharmacological regimens accordingly.


----------



## jfromaz (Mar 23, 2009)

Very true, sorry, I truthfully don't know all that much factual information about DP/DR for sure, that's what makes it so damn frustrating, I was just kind of brainstorming, and the role of serotonin in regards to DP/DR sounded promising, but I truthfully have NO IDEA, I hate how confusing DP/DR is..

On the other hand, I just read this piece of information concerning DP/DR and serotonin, but as with everything on the internet, you can't be sure of it's origin/factuality 
_Induction of depersonalization by the serotonin agonist meta-chlorophenylpiperazine.
Psychiatry Res. 1995 Sep 29;58(2):161-4.
Sixty-seven subjects, including normal volunteers and patients with obsessive-compulsive disorder, social phobia, and borderline personality disorder, received ratings of depersonalization after double-blind, placebo-controlled challenges with the partial serotonin agonist meta-chlorophenylpiperazine (m-CPP). Challenge with m-CPP induced depersonalization significantly more than did placebo. Subjects who became depersonalized did not differ in age, sex, or diagnosis from those who did not experience depersonalization. There was a significant correlation between the induction of depersonalization and increase in panic, but not nervousness, anxiety, sadness, depression, or drowsiness. *This report suggests that serotonergic dysregulation may in part underlie depersonalization.* _ quoted from "http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:V0_3qZmtKSQJ:www.neurotransmitter.net/depersonalization.html+serotonin+depersonalization&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us"

Also, read something else concerning the efficiency of fluoxetine in the treatment of DP/DR, basically goes against everything I said, but I still have hope in my personal case of it, and again.. what I said about information on the internet...
quoted from the same site; _Simeon D, Guralnik O, Schmeidler J, Knutelska M
Fluoxetine therapy in depersonalisation disorder: randomised controlled trial.
Br J Psychiatry. 2004 Jul;18531-6.
BACKGROUND: Despite anecdotal reports that serotonin reuptake inhibitors may improve depersonalisation, there is no proven efficacious treatment for depersonalisation disorder. AIMS: To investigate the efficacy of fluoxetine in the treatment of depersonalisation disorder. METHOD: Fifty-four people who met DSM-IV criteria for depersonalisation disorder were recruited through newspaper advertisements, and 50 were randomised to a 10-week, double-blind trial of fluoxetine 10-60 mg/day or placebo. Primary outcome measures were the Dissociative Experiences Scale-Depersonalisation Factor, the Depersonalization Severity Scale and the Clinical Global Impression-Improvement (CGI-I) scale. RESULTS: Intention-to-treat analysis revealed that fluoxetine (mean dosage 48 mg/day) was not superior to placebo except for a clinically minimal but statistically significantly greater improvement in CGI-I score in the fluoxetine group prior to covarying for anxiety and depression (2.9 v. 3.6). Depersonalisation was significantly more likely to improve if comorbid anxiety disorder improved. CONCLUSIONS: Fluoxetine was not efficacious in treating depersonalisation disorder, despite the commonly reported clinical use of serotonin reuptake inhibitors for this condition._


----------



## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

Yeah, and I haven't seen many conclusive studies on dopamine at all. Sure, dopamine is of concern in schizophrenia, but people with DP aren't schizophrenic, so the connection between dopamine and DP is arbitrary.


----------



## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

however, people with schizophrenia are often depersonalized.


----------



## Guest (Oct 17, 2009)

tommygunz,

Are you saying that along with your depersonalization and all of your other symptoms, you feel heightened awareness, sensory stimulation, and hypervigilance? To me that seems completely contradictory. Those are some of the key traits that I have lost, and seem directly related with depersonalization in that one is clouded/veiled, and walking clumsily through a fog.


----------



## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

not simply heightened, overstimulated. for example bright fluorescent lighting increases my anxiety, and in some degree hurts my eyes.


----------



## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

Mjlenczewsk said:


> tommygunz,
> 
> Are you saying that along with your depersonalization and all of your other symptoms, you feel heightened awareness, sensory stimulation, and hypervigilance? To me that seems completely contradictory. Those are some of the key traits that I have lost, and seem directly related with depersonalization in that one is clouded/veiled, and walking clumsily through a fog.


DP/DR definitely goes with heightened awareness (I've heard it called meta-awareness and meta-cognition clinically), and overstimulation.

But, Tommygunz, the assumption that schizophrenia <=> DP/DR is a two way street isn't logically sound.


----------



## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

egodeath said:


> Mjlenczewsk said:
> 
> 
> > tommygunz,
> ...


i agree completely, while having DP won't lead to schizophrenia, a common occurrence in schizophrenia is DP.


----------



## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

Tommygunz said:


> i agree completely, while having DP won't lead to schizophrenia, a common occurrence in schizophrenia is DP.


And so, you can't conclude that dopamine is the link. It could be the traumatic experience of persecutory delusions, hyperactivity of the frontal lobe, or any number of other features of schizophrenia that leads to dissociative experiences. And it's hard to distinguish between the psychotic symptoms of schizophrenia and the dissociative ones, if they're there at all (research shows that they probably are).

And now that I'm done playing devil's advocate, how is your regimen going? I really hope you can get someone to do a controlled study on this.


----------



## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

it's goin good, i can feel the few remaining kinks that DP left behind starting to lift, so i'm pretty excited about that. also, i believe if enough people report therapeutic benefit from this, Dr. sierra may see what he can do about getting it into a clinical trial.


----------



## hd83 (Jan 10, 2006)

DON'T TAKE ST. JOHN'S WORT!!! I took that shit for 3 months and it F*CKED me up bad for 6 months (3 months while I was on it and another 3 months it took to get out of my system). I swear I felt like the most schizophrenic person on the earth. DON'T TAKE IT!!!


----------



## BusyBee (Aug 7, 2010)

Tommygunz said:


> i'll have to look into it further, to see how much could help, and how much could hurt.


So does it work?


----------



## outlaw (May 20, 2010)

I don't understand why theres a debate going on about this. Try it! Someone is telling you what helped them and what they believe could possibly help you. If it doesn't work it was worth the try. Every attempt at every possible solution is worth it! If you're too skeptical than don't try it.


----------



## BusyBee (Aug 7, 2010)

egodeath said:


> DP/DR definitely goes with heightened awareness (I've heard it called meta-awareness and meta-cognition clinically), and overstimulation.
> 
> But, Tommygunz, the assumption that schizophrenia <=> DP/DR is a two way street isn't logically sound.


Yes Ive also noticed that despite feeling detached from the world, things appear sharper. Like the light reflecting off of everything is 'stark' rather than soft. Very disoriantating. Must be part of DP.


----------

