# Why I don't understand Christianity



## invisible.ink (Feb 2, 2007)

The Bible claims that God is all loving. It also claims that God is a jealous God. Yet the Bible tells us that love is not jealous (from Psalms I believe but I do not have a Bible to give you the exact passage). Therefore, if love is not jealous how can we reconcile the fact that God is all loving yet also jealous?

God created Satan. Satan is evil. For God to have created anything it must have existed in some form within himself, even if only as a thought. How could God be all loving yet have created evil?

We are given free will to choose whether or not to believe in and accept God. If we do not, we will be banished into a firy pit for all eternity. Does the punishment fit the crime? I don't think so. We are given 80 or so years to learn and ponder all that is to be learned and pondered. It is not nearly enough time to merit an eternity of reward or an eternity of damnation.
It seems that all life exists merely to cater to God's ego. To worship him. It makes Him seem like a lonely child lording over an anthill. If we don't worship him we go to hell. How is that unconditional love? It isn't. He loves us and rewards us only on the condition that we praise Him or whatever.

If you look at Hinduism or certain Pagan and New Age religions you see a spiritual journey: many physicial and/or spiritual incarnations to learn and grow and eventually re-merge with the source of life or become an enlightened being. No punishment is eternal because you are given the chance to redeem yourself. That is the point of life.
In a Christian world the point of life is to cater to the every whim of a jealous, wrathful and proud God only to be sentenced to torment of an unfathomable length of time if you fail to do so in the short time you have in the material body.

I would love to hear a Christian viewpoint on my thoughts. Don't hesitate to reply if you subscribe to a faith other than Christianity as I would love to hear your thoughts as well. I will keep an open mind.


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## guitarman (Dec 11, 2008)

invisible.ink said:


> The Bible claims that God is all loving. It also claims that God is a jealous God. Yet the Bible tells us that love is not jealous (from Psalms I believe but I do not have a Bible to give you the exact passage). Therefore, if love is not jealous how can we reconcile the fact that God is all loving yet also jealous?
> 
> God created Satan. Satan is evil. For God to have created anything it must have existed in some form within himself, even if only as a thought. How could God be all loving yet have created evil?
> 
> ...


We have all fallen short of the glory of God. God knows we can never measure up. We will never be good enough. As our loving father he sent his son to die on the cross for our sins. He basically gave us a free pass. All we have to do is accept it. We can all be down that path to hell, right on the very door step of hell it self. And if we reach a hand to God through Jesus Christ, we will be saved.


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## guitarman (Dec 11, 2008)

VinCi said:


> *Here's a list of a few contradictions in the bible:*
> 
> GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
> GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.
> ...


It would be quite exhausting to go through your post and pick apart your logic so I won't even try. Of course, I'm sure you'll use that as further ammunition against Christianity but that's ok. It is quite easy to go to specific parts of the Bible and make a case regarding chronologically based passages and other perceived inaccuracies. Many cults are built by using the same methods. To truly understand the Bible it takes a life time of study and prayer. Even then its a faith that can only be realized by opening your heart to God and allowing the Holy Spirit to touch you. When that happens you'll know in your heart that every word of the Bible is true. Until that happens you can't possibly understand.


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## invisible.ink (Feb 2, 2007)

guitarman- You skirted around my first question. I asked how we reconcile the fact that God is all loving and also jealous at the same time? Your answer makes no sense in the context of the question.
Also, you answer as though Satan created evil. I know that he was once an angel. I know the story of the fall. That is not what I asked.
If there was nothing before God, then God must have created everything. Evil would be included in that everything. So would free will. God created free will and he created the concept of evil because he created everything. For God to have created evil it must have been a part of him in some form, making God imperfect and infallible, which contradicts the very esssence of the Christian God, does it not?
ETA: I'm going to answer my own question here. If God created everything then he must also set the parameters of what is perfection. Therefore, he could have evil in him and still be perfect. Interesting paradox.
And Vinci, I'm going to ask you to please be respectful of others' opinions in my thread. Debate does not mean be rude and condescending. Also, could you cite the source of your first post?


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## guitarman (Dec 11, 2008)

invisible.ink said:


> guitarman- You skirted around my first question. I asked how we reconcile the fact that God is all loving and also jealous at the same time? Your answer makes no sense in the context of the question.
> Also, you answer as though Satan created evil. I know that he was once an angel. I know the story of the fall. That is not what I asked.
> If there was nothing before God, then God must have created everything. Evil would be included in that everything. So would free will. God created free will and he created the concept of evil because he created everything. For God to have created evil it must have been a part of him in some form, making God imperfect and infallible, which contradicts the very esssence of the Christian God, does it not?
> And Vinci, I'm going to ask you to please be respectful of others' opinions in my thread. Debate does not mean be rude and condescending. Also, could you cite the source of your first post?


I didn't skirt around anything. I answered using my opinions and what I understand. I may not be the most eloquent and educated to ask these questions of. Your questions are of a very deep and complex nature. I answered with my opinions. You ask for opinions then you don't like the answers. I may not have the answers to the universe as most likely know one does but I gave you my thoughts. So, are you looking for absolutes or opinions and thoughts?


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## guitarman (Dec 11, 2008)

VinCi said:


> Oh you just going to ignore that God sucks so bad that his on manual to everything is filledwith over 100 contradictions?
> lol...
> I use LOGIC, check a definition of it and you'll see I'm not lying.
> However your "believe blindly and you shall see" is another STRAIGHT UP contradiction.
> ...


This is why you'll have a hard time ever believing in your heart. Yes there is logic that will not make sense to us from the Bible. For example Jesus is always thought of as harmony and love yet some passages contradict his nature:

1. (Matthew 10:34) - "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35"For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36and a man?s enemies will be the members of his household."
2. (Luke 12:51) - "Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; 52for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two, and two against three..."
3. (Luke 22:36) - "And He said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one."

Years ago when I got in to IT and was learning about Operating system architecture there were some logics that I had a hard time getting my head wrapped around. Such as, "The boot files need to be on the system partition and the system files need to be on the boot partition". The concept seems quite a contradiction but when you understand it makes perfect sense.

I may not have enough time on earth to understand every contradiction in the Bible but I know its not the Bible, its me.


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## invisible.ink (Feb 2, 2007)

guitarman said:


> invisible.ink said:
> 
> 
> > The Bible claims that God is all loving. It also claims that God is a jealous God. Yet the Bible tells us that love is not jealous (from Psalms I believe but I do not have a Bible to give you the exact passage). Therefore, if love is not jealous how can we reconcile the fact that God is all loving yet also jealous?
> ...


This is the answer you gave to the question I asked. Basically you gave me the definition of jealousy. It's not that I didn't _like_ your answer, guitarman, it's that you did not answer the question. It makes no sense.


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## guitarman (Dec 11, 2008)

invisible.ink said:
 

> guitarman said:
> 
> 
> > invisible.ink said:
> ...


If you believe that God is our creator, we are to love Him. When we put other idols or gods before him that's a no no. Is that truly jealousy? If so, is this type of jealousy to be a negative to the character of God? I think you are taking the word "Jealousy" as a negative such as an over jealous boy friend that practices destructive behavior out of jealousy towards his girl friend. If a man were to step out and cheat on his wife would the wife's reaction to divorce him and throw him to the curb constitute justified jealousy? Should this jealousy be a mark on her character?


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## invisible.ink (Feb 2, 2007)

guitarman said:


> If you believe that God is our creator, we are to love Him. When we put other idols or gods before him that's a no no. Is that truly jealousy? If so, is this type of jealousy to be a negative to the character of God? I think you are taking the word "Jealousy" as a negative such as an over jealous boy friend that practices destructive behavior out of jealousy towards his girl friend. If a man were to step out and cheat on his wife would the wife's reaction to divorce him and throw him to the curb constitute justified jealousy? Should this jealousy be a mark on her character?


This is the kind of answser I was looking for and you raise some very good points, guitarman. This is a bit of a bad analogy but our parents are also our creators in a sense (in every sense if someone is an atheist, I consider myself agnostic). Should we automatically love them? What if they neglect us or cause us harm? Loving someone simply because they created you makes no sense. Personally, I have never had a prayer answered. Not once. I have never felt God's "presence" nor any other god or goddess. Should I love a God I'm not even sure exists? This is why I'm incredibly skeptical despite the fact that I've spent most of my life trying to latch on to some kind of belief system. But that's a different story. Me and my damn tangents. lol


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## invisible.ink (Feb 2, 2007)

VinCi said:


> http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html


Thanks.


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## Anla (May 1, 2007)

Many people think that Jesus's life and message have been perverted. Margaret Starbird writes about being a faithful daughter of the Church and trying to debunk the heresy of HOLY BLOOD, HOLY GRAIL. But after her own exhaustive research, she decided that there is a chasm between the discoveries of modern Bible scholars and the version of Christianity taught from the pulpits of Churches. She finds that Jesus was a Davidic king and his bride, Mary Magdalen is the lost feminine of Christianity. Many writers in Europe concur.
Check out http://www.sambloodroyal.com
The site is in Europe, and is full of info about the real story. Mary Magdalen gives the story meaning for all of us.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

Christianity is not meant to be _understood_. God is complex to the point that to understand God, one would have to be God. God is either uncaring, or caring in a way that does not make sense to humans. The Bible cannot be taken literally; in order to serve God one must surpass words, especially those written by different humans in different times who were attempting to understand the world around them. I am not a Christian. I can't help you with faith. But if you choose to believe, you have to accept that faith is blind. Rationalizing God and the Bible will only turn you atheist.


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## SistA HazeL (Aug 10, 2008)

I agree with egodeath. Christianity is not meant to be understood though however, it's meant to be lived. Christianity is a lifestyle not really a religion. If you see it in a religious context then that's when wars start lol. No one can live the Christian way of life perfectly but by faith and the grace of God we can. That is why Jesus came to earth to be an example of God's love.

_*No one's ever seen or heard anything like this,
Never so much as imagined anything quite like it?
What God has arranged for those who love him.
But you've seen and heard it because God by his Spirit has brought it all out into the open before you. *_

We can go on about questions such as "If God loves us so much why does he allow suffering?" That's a pretty deep question. 
I was thinking about that question one day and a thought came to my mind. It seemed like one of the right answers to that question.

This what came to my mind -

_The reason why God allows suffering is to humble us_

wow!! peace like a river flowed through me.

Since this is a debate section, you can disagree but don't be an idiot like Vinci. lol


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## guitarman (Dec 11, 2008)

egodeath said:


> Christianity is not meant to be _understood_. God is complex to the point that to understand God, one would have to be God. God is either uncaring, or caring in a way that does not make sense to humans. The Bible cannot be taken literally; in order to serve God one must surpass words, especially those written by different humans in different times who were attempting to understand the world around them. I am not a Christian. I can't help you with faith. But if you choose to believe, you have to accept that faith is blind. Rationalizing God and the Bible will only turn you atheist.


The problem in the old testament was that people could not understand God. They tried to live up to Gods standards but that is impossible for us. So that we could understand God he sent his Son to teach us and to die for our sins. The understanding of God is in Jesus Christ. Whenever I have seen people in the past fighting and getting hung up about controversial matters such as speaking in tongues or what you should and shouldn't do, I always say that all that stuff doesn't matter nearly as much as the simple message of Jesus Christ.


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## SistA HazeL (Aug 10, 2008)

guitarman said:


> The problem in the old testament was that people could not understand God. They tried to live up to Gods standards but that is impossible for us. So that we could understand God he sent his Son to teach us and to die for our sins. *The understanding of God is in Jesus Christ*. Whenever I have seen people in the past fighting and getting hung up about controversial matters such as speaking in tongues or what you should and shouldn't do, I always say that *all that stuff doesn't matter nearly as much as the simple message of Jesus Christ.*


Amen to that bro!


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## guitarman (Dec 11, 2008)

SistA HazeL said:


> We can go on about questions such as "If God loves us so much why does he allow suffering?" That's a pretty deep question.
> I was thinking about that question one day and a thought came to my mind. It seemed like one of the right answers to that question.
> 
> This what came to my mind -
> ...


Since suffering is pretty much a result of our own doing, I look at it this way. In order for God to not allow suffering, he'd have to not allow us to do what we do. Pollute the earth, eat things that are harmful to our body, I could go on all day. But if He were to do that he'd be taking away our free will. If he does that he may as well force us to worship him and do what he decrees. But He doesn't want our love that way. He wants us to love Him of our own free will.


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## invisible.ink (Feb 2, 2007)

Thank you for all the replies. 
I was a Christian at one point in my life. I consider myself agnostic now. I don't know if I'll ever return to my faith but as of right now I doubt it. 
Ach. I'd answer your posts more in depth but I'm so DP'ed and sleep deprived that I can't think straight. :lol: (As I laugh I realize it is not funny. Woe is me.  )


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

guitarman said:


> SistA HazeL said:
> 
> 
> > We can go on about questions such as "If God loves us so much why does he allow suffering?" That's a pretty deep question.
> ...


Or maybe Epicurus was right and God doesn't care.
We must consider the possibility that we are forsaken children.
And, by the way, Vinci is gone.


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## SistA HazeL (Aug 10, 2008)

mmmkay :shock: 8)


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## guitarman (Dec 11, 2008)

egodeath said:


> Or maybe Epicurus was right and God doesn't care.
> We must consider the possibility that we are forsaken children.


All we have to go on is the text that we are supplied. The Bible gives us no indication that God doesn't care.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

guitarman said:


> egodeath said:
> 
> 
> > Or maybe Epicurus was right and God doesn't care.
> ...


But the world does. Ever help starving children plow their fields in rural South Africa? They pray to God, too. Six million Jews--God's chosen people--were exterminated and, not only did God turn a blind eye, but the God-fearing people of the good ol' U.S. of A didn't care much, either. If God does care, He has a fu-cked up way of showing it. Perhaps He has a divine plan. Perhaps he is testing all of us. Perhaps he wants us to eradicate ourselves of apathy before He will intervene in human affairs. Believe what you want. It won't change the absurdity and indifference that pervades this universe. If there is a God, he laid down the natural law and left this place long ago.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

egodeath said:


> guitarman said:
> 
> 
> > egodeath said:
> ...


That's pretty much how I look at it, except he'll come back eventually.


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

Yup. Dont take this the wrong way, im generally a nice guy.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

And the only rebuttle is: God is testing us.
Testing us for what?
Who the fuuck knows? Only He does.
Fuuck it, right?


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## SistA HazeL (Aug 10, 2008)

The only thing you can test God on is tithing.

Yep that's what He said.


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## Alter (Jan 26, 2009)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: @ tithing
no offense
tried it
went broke


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## drawynitsed (Dec 14, 2008)

You can't use tithing as a test. You're not suppose to expect anything out of it. It's suppose to be a gift to God and the church to 1.help the church keep it's doors open and 2. help the church reach out to other people through missons, programs, and other mediums. You shouldn't be looking at it as a way to get anything back.


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