# God?



## peacedove

I was brought up Christian. Always believed I was Christian... even when I got my DP as a child and it wouldn't go away. I prayed for "my problem" to go away, but it didn't. When I was in third grade, I asked my teacher "Why did God create the world if he knew there would be so much pain and suffering?" She thought for a minute and said "Well have you ever had the fun of making something out of clay and didn't want anyone to destroy it?..." And she just kinda trailed off. What kind of answer is that?!

I've been to church, I've been preached to by an uncle that's in prison now for incest with his adopted daughter, my cousin. And I tried to believe it, I tried to read the Bible. But I just don't get it. If God is all-powerful.... why didn't he create everything perfect... or at least better. And I've been told well it's beyond our comprehension that's where faith comes in... you just have to believe. But how can anyone NOT doubt that there's a God?

Is this life really a gift? Did Jesus really die for my sins so that I could go to Heaven? And what sins??? I didn't ask for this. I didn't ask to be here. The way I see it we're all innocent, even if Jesus didn't die for us how could we be held accountable for these sins? We were created to make sins... I don't understand this free will crap. What is free? I am in a trap. I live and do what I do to get by.

The Bible says drinking to the point of intoxication is a sin. How can it be a sin if when you're not drinking you're in complete terror? How can you be sent to Hell for that? How could a loving God send any of his "children" to Hell??? And this whole Satan thing.... didn't God create Satan....? He was an angel but got kicked out cuz he disagreed with God or something? I don't get it.

I don't get any of this. And you know what... I still pray, even though I'm not so sure anymore. I pray He'll give me a sign or something. What does He want from me?! I will do anything for some peace! But He won't show me.... I'm lost. And does it really count.... believing in God just cuz you're scared, just cuz you have to believe in something? I feel doomed no matter what. I just want the pain to stop. God... is that too much to ask?


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## Guest

I don't think this whole "god trip" you're on is working. Just become atheist like me and you'll never have to worry about any of that crap anymore.


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## Phill

I agree with Zig. You won't have to worry about all of it anymore.....that is until you die. I've been a Christian for 14 years and i don't understand most of these questions completely either. God says in the bible that we'll prosper and be blessed and a host of other nice things, but He also says
that in this world we will have troubles and trials and tribulation!!! 
(what's that supposed to mean?) 
I've found it's so much easier to believe than not to.
There is no doubt that he will help you and give you peace. Don't give up praying no matter how you feel. Sounds religious but it's also very true that if you Seek Him with ALL you're heart, you will indeed find him. I reckon if i never had dp/dr I wouldn't be here today. Would have ended my life long ago. Having dp/dr, OCD, Tourette's syndrome and anxiety that brought me to the brink of true insanity caused me to seek him with all my heart. Because i just had a knowing that there was no other way. I found him and you can too. And it's not so much what He wants from me, it's what He has for us. The gift of everlasting heavenly bliss, dp/dr free, no more shit mental problems. Free forever...! Please no one take this as "preaching" , I'm simply telling you what has happened to me and many others. Simple truth.


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## falling_free

For me god is just the force that we all came from, that being all the intellgent and other beings in the universe with couciousness, even the universe itself, I don't believe that this god takes a form really, I belive it more like the taoist belief that everything came from one force or orginal point, anyway I think that the trational chrsitan belief that we go to hell for are sins is counterproducitve and just makes people more guilt ridden than they should be about their life, cos I mean some sins are fun and we should'nt all be hungup about whats going to happen in the next life because of my actions in this one etc etc. Also something thats always baffeled me about the story of creation is that no dinosurs were mentioned, I mean no one can posssibly dispute that dinosurs exsisted, yet still many people believe that we all came from 1 man and 1 women who lived in a big happy garden and then the nasty snake came along with knowledge (who wouldn't want knowledge?) and made us all sinful, It just sounds like the sort of story a five year old would make up. I mean I still repect whatever people want to believe but It doesn't mean I have to beleive it.


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## peacedove

Phill, what exactly does "seek him with all your heart" entail?? Cuz I've been praying for years and still have not found him.


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## Phill

Peacedove, It entails putting aside all your dissappointments, broken dreams, frustrations and confusion, and all the hypocrisy you may have seen. Example, (your uncle). And believing that the state we're in is truly as the bible says. To acknowledge ourselves as sinners and that we have a need for forgiveness. Believing this, not concerning ones self of how we became like this, but accepting that that is the reality. Believing that Jesus
is who He says He is, that He really did die on the cross and rise from the grave for your sins. If we're interested in the God of the bible we must agree with what it says about us. If you see yourself as innocent then you might as well forget about Jesus and His power to save you from hell and get you to heaven. But if you want the absolute assurance of sins forgiven and going to heaven when you die, go Jesus' way, because every other way is a dead end road, full of emptiness. 
To sum up what you must do is very simple:

1. Admit your a sinner.
2. Be willing to turn from your sins.
3. Believe Jesus died for your sins and rose from the grave.
4. Through sincere prayer, ask him to forgive your sins and come into and control your life by His spirit.

This is what seeking Him with your whole heart entails. 
God didn't say "TRY", He said "BELIEVE". 
Anyway, having done this, your greatest need as a human being will be met. Then focusing on other needs like healing can take place.

Enough said for now, hope this helps.

Take Care, Phill.l


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## shazada (jonathan)

phill, what religion are you? christian yes I know, but like catholic, protestant... ?????


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## gizmo

amen to what Phill said.


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## peacedove

Well, I admit I'm a sinner.... but God created me a sinner. Why did God create one tree that Adam and Eve couldn't eat from.... the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Why did he create the serpent that enticed Eve to eat the apple? Doesn't God know everything... he's all-powerful right? So why?? Feel free to tell me to shut up and join a Bible study at any time. :?


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## Phill

Why would God place a tree in the garden and forbid adam to eat from it? Why would God give us a choice if He already knows what we're going to choose? Why did He create angels and then humans with a capability for evil? I know you've heard the answer of free will and if there was no choice we'd all be robots and our obedience to God would be hollow.
I hope that you're not relying on me to answer your questions! LOL LOL LOL!!! Although there have been some good theories that i'd heard to questions like this none have really been satisfiying. As i said before, I believe on focusing on the answers i do have, what i can do rather than what i can't do. What about this one....Where did God come from? And who created Him if He was created? Our minds must just be so small and minute, little pea brains, comp[ared to Gods'.


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## peacedove

Thanks Phill for all your replies. I started reading the Bible again recently. I've never actually read the entire thing before and I decided I should start with Genesis and go all the way to Revelation. But I got stuck on those questions and now I don't seem to be able to go on with it. God just seems very cruel to me.

I'm stuck on #2. I admit I'm a sinner... but how can I be willing to turn from my sins if God's the one who made me a sinner in the first place? I don't expect you to answer don't worry. I'm just pondering things.


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## Guest

For many, the only thing getting them through this is their faith in god...but what is getting me through this is my total apathy towards god and the afterlife. I am agnostic, therefore I do not think very hard about god and the afterlife and this tends to put me at ease. What gives me hardcore anxiety however, is trying to justify why I should give a crap for sustaining this lifeless body any longer.


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## Guest

One of the most fascinating and controversial subjects of all the manifestations of humanity. The God thing. Is not it interesting how it may seem that most (not all) of the themes of a lot of religions all over the world are so similar? How so many religions seem to think that their God, or Gods are the only ones, and that their religion is the only correct one? Look at what this really demonstrates about humanity (asking not stating). How many times throughout history have people searched for some great truth for things they could not understand? Personal belief. If there was any one sacrament, that should be something all people have a right to cherish and enjoy, maybe faith should be one, and could be one provided that there was enough discipline to honor those that believe differently from one another. Hence, would it be reasonable to assume there is no one absolute correct belief system? However, that is a different subject. I feel, therefore I am.


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## Byrde

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## Sojourner

peacedove said:


> Well, I admit I'm a sinner.... but God created me a sinner. Why did God create one tree that Adam and Eve couldn't eat from.... the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Why did he create the serpent that enticed Eve to eat the apple? Doesn't God know everything... he's all-powerful right? So why?? Feel free to tell me to shut up and join a Bible study at any time. :?


He gave us free will so we could have the joy of choosing Him over ourselves.

The scene in the Garden is the same scene we each face every day of our lives -- the choice of whether we will obey God and do what is right or disobey God and do what is pleasing to us in a world without God.

I truly believe that each person who has ever lived knows deep inside somewhere that there is indeed an Elusive Lover who loves him or her with a passion beyond all understanding.

I was an atheist/agnostic until I was 35, but I always felt that there was "something going on" in the universe that was just beyond reach.

Anyway, what critics and condemners of religious belief do not know -- and have difficulty accepting even when they are told -- is that belief in God is not primarily based on the acceptance of principles or ideas, but rather the relationship with a real Person. It is a hard concept to get one's head around -- I know, because I was an unbeliever for a long time. I know what the world looks like without God. I know what religious talk sounds like to a person who doesn't believe. I was one for a very long time. But underneath my experience, in the crevices and spaces of perceived reality, there was always a Presence. What it was I never knew.

Once, and this is so ironic, my mother, who was a devout atheist and never missed an opportunity to make fun of people who believed in God, particularly in our mainly Jewish city, one day took my older sister and me one Sunday afternoon to a place called "The Spanish Monastery." This place was literally a Spanish monastery from the 12th century that William Randolph Hearst had purchased in the Twenties. For various reasons, it didn't get reassembled until the early Fifties. It must have been 1956 or so when my atheist mother took my sister and I to this "tourist attraction."

It was there, in that place, that I had my second transcendental religious experience, where God became quite real to me, although I didn't believe in any "God" and the experience was just a very tangible sense of being touched by "Something" that was unexplainable but very real and very smart. My first experience had been at age 4 at a pre-kindergarten place I went to. A child who grows up without any religion in the home, however, just internalizes these isolated experiences and doesn't really understand what they relate to or mean on any level. Twenty years later, after college, some kind of quest began, and I was 35 before coming to faith. The whole process probably took 15 years or more.

My point being, as I said, that I know what the "no God" mind is like. It's really no different from the mind that believes in God. I happen to think that the same sense of there being "Something" -- something quite beautiful and loving -- exists in all people, but that sometimes people are afraid of admitting it.

Knowing t hat "Something" is the thing that brings us the joy that God wants us to have and is the reason for God's giving us free choice.

It's the joy of coming HOME to a place we've never been and cannot conceive of but that occurs somewhere within us where we are called by name.

All believers know is that the Hebrew scriptures and the Christian scriptures help illuminate what is happening to that person at the hands of the "Something".

Utter mystery, utter beauty, utter love, we are permitted to freely pursue the love that beckons us, or leave it and go our way. Either road that we choose is fine with God. He won't stop calling us and giving us the opportunity to pursue the "Something" within us that we've developed both a love and a hate relationship with.

We are all the same! There are not "spiritual" people and then "unspiritual" people. We are of the same family and we share the same human traits. The primary one is that we have the "receiver" within which we can "receive" God. He is closer to us than we are to ourselves.

I am rambling. Why? Well, I've been going through old threads in the Spirituality forum and making comments when I see something interesting. Maybe it IS possible for me to talk about God and yet not drive other people crazy. Maybe, but I'm not sure.

Your question, peacedove, attracted my attention because... well, I don't know why, but it did. I hope you don't mind it being resurrected, as it were.


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## Guest

sooner or later people will realize there is no god.

I mean, whats so wrong believing were here through scientific means, and not that some "guy" that we have no proof of that even exists created us?

Im pretty sure my mom and dad created me and theirs them, and so on and so on.... theres pretty solid evidence that we came from primates.... and whats wrong with it if we did? Were obviously still higher creatures from them even if god created us or not (and thats assuming he exists)

And to all creationists out there.... one word.... Dinorsaurs


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## blackwinded

my question is not so much if god is all powerful, then why did he create all this pain and suffering, but if god is all powerful, then why do we supposedly go to hell for things like, commiting suicide if we are extreamly depressed, or simply if we dont "accept" jesus. If he is all powerful, then doesn't he have the power to bring us to heaven and not let satin or whoever take us to hell"?

And i'm sick of it when christians tell me...it is my choice if want to go to hell or not..it is my choice if i want to accept jesus or not. First of all, i dont think that is really true... I don't see myself as ever being able to look at something so black and white, i don't think i could ever willingly change my views on how i feel about religion...second of all, why would anyone desersve to go to hell, just because they question the existance of god or disagree with certain things that the bible says? No one deserves to suffer for eternity for having their own beliefs/opinions and questioning thinngs! isn't this what we are taught in life?

The bible makes god sound like a dictator...like Sadam Housain "If you don't do it my way, then you suffer...you die!"

I hope i dont offend anyone by this, but the bible makes it sound like god is quite the evil one: if we "dont accept jesus and believe in him", then we burn in hell for eternity!?? It's not right or fair in any way. It actually goes against much of what the bible says itself! It's like it all contradicts itself!!!!! Actually, i've recently come to believe that the bible is just a big puzzle book of lies and jokes and contradictions.

I'm not an athiest, but i'm not any organized religion. I believe that anything is possible, because no one knows what happens when we die. The bible may very well be true (but i hope it isn't!), but i still think it is a bunch of BS!

So many people look at is so black and white--like there either is a god, or their isn't. It doesn't make any sense to me. I prefer to keep an open mind about everything, especially since no one really knows what happens when you die...anything could be possible.

-becka


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## JaoDP123

The Bible has been modified over the centuries to impliment certain ruler's visions. This change is evident today when one realizes the plethora of different versions of the bible we see today. This occurs when people disagree with the bible or construe different meaning from it and alter it's contents. It happens to a lesser effect today because there are many other bibles to cross check each other and notice discrepancies. However, back in ancient times a ruler could change the bible with relative ease, passing off his aldultered bible to the sheepish peasants. This is not to say that the bible is false, because the events coincide with history all to accurately to pass up as lies, and because i have never seen so much valuable wisdom in one source, truely something of divine origins. Use your intuition and conscience when reading the bible to extrapolate the truths and know that some questions are answered in ways humans cannot comprehend.


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## Sojourner

Most of the differences in the Bible have to do with:

- The Catholic and Protestant canon.

- The language from which it was translated.

--------------

There have been no changes that were not grounded in translation issues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_translations


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## MrMortgage

The Gospel is very cut and dry! God is not all about saving, love, healing, "make me rich", ice cream.

God can be good and evil. He's the one that makes sick, he's the one that makes well.

Too many people put all there faith in presciption drugs, money, government, other humans. If science was sooo great, if man is so great then why are we here? Why are we still suffering?

This is all God's plan... People need to look to him for help... He gets pissed if you dont.

Some people have the ears to hear "my sheep know my voice..." Sorry to say but God isn't gonna take all of us. I'm a true believer, but I never say I'm going to heaven because I might not.

God never promised it would be easy...he only promised it would be worth it.

The word of God is offensive... People only want to hear good things, they dont want to hear things that go against what man has brought them to believe is just.

Jesus is coming... some say 2012, the bible code says 2012, the myan calender say 2012. That would be great, but the bible also say no one know when the father will come but the father soooooo.....


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## peacedove

2012? Never heard that one before.

I'm still struggling with my God issues. I want to believe... Oh I'm just so confused, nevermind.


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## Guest

the reason people suffer is because man sinned against god . before that there was no suffering


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## falling_free

peacedove said:


> 2012? Never heard that one before.
> 
> I'm still struggling with my God issues. I want to believe... Oh I'm just so confused, nevermind.


2012 is supposadlly according to the mayans the end of time/the start of a new cycle or whatever.

and also 2012 is the date for the end of time wave zero, a theroy of terrence mckennas

-

Novelty Theory has a few basic tenets:

That the universe is a living system with a teleological attractor at the end of time that drives the increase and conservation of complexity in material forms. 
That novelty and complexity increase over time, despite repeated set-backs, in a process similar to punctuated equilibrium in biology. 
That the human brain represents the pinnacle of complex organization in the known universe to date. 
That fluctuations in novelty over time are self-similar at different scales. Thus the rise and fall of the Roman Empire might be resonant with the life of a family within a single generation, or with an individual's day at work. 
That as the complexity and sophistication of human thought and culture increase, universal novelty approaches a Koch curve of infinite exponential growth. 
That in the time immediately prior to, and during this omega point of infinite novelty, anything and everything conceivable to the human imagination will occur simultaneously. 
That the date of this historical endpoint is December 21, 2012, the end of the long count of the Mayan calendar. (A less common interpretation puts the end date of the Mayan calendar at December 23, 2012, but McKenna used the more common solstice date.) 
This End of History was to be the final manifestation of The Eschaton, which McKenna characterized as a sort of strange attractor towards which the evolution of the universe developed.

His predictions for this transcendent event were wide ranging and varied, depending on his audience. At times he conjectured that it would be the moment at which the mass of humanity would, by means of some technology, become mentally conjoined in a great collective. At others he speculated that this was to be the moment in which time travel became a reality. Another was the birth of self-conscious artificial intelligence. Another was a global UFO visitation. Occasionally he even expressed doubt as to whether anything at all would happen. However, McKenna claimed that there was no contradiction between these scenarios, as they might all happen simultaneously.

I don't subscribe to the whole 2012 legend, but still would be preety cool to witness the end of time.


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## peacedove

radikall777 said:


> the reason people suffer is because man sinned against god . before that there was no suffering


But god created us sinners. He didn't create us perfect cuz if we were perfect we never would have sinned at all.


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## peacedove

> I don't subscribe to the whole 2012 legend, but still would be preety cool to witness the end of time.


Oh my god are you serious? Just reading that almost put me in a panic attack. It's thoughts like those that caused my DP I think. (The end of time, infinity, etc.)[/quote]


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## falling_free

peacedove said:


> I don't subscribe to the whole 2012 legend, but still would be preety cool to witness the end of time.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh my god are you serious? Just reading that almost put me in a panic attack. It's thoughts like those that caused my DP I think. (The end of time, infinity, etc.
Click to expand...

Yeh, I wouldnt't really be bothered if time suppossadly ended in 2012.

Anyway it's just supposed to be a jump up to the 5th dimension or a new form of time or something, as I say I don't really know that much about it or believe.


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## Martinelv

> But god created us sinners. He didn't create us perfect cuz if we were perfect we never would have sinned at all


Reading this, my brain went into shutdown due to a gargantuan rage overload. I need it explained in simple terms, and one that doesn't make me want to empty my guts through my ears.


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## peacedove

What?


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## Martinelv

> What?


My thoughts exactly.


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