# MY THEORY IN FULL! slightly revised



## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

removed. to view current post click here. http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/18746-read-this-if-you-want-to-recover/


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## backagain (Aug 8, 2009)

I've been looking into this but I think there is much more to it. I believe I had a dopamine/serotonin imbalance in the first place before I ever had my first panic attack that led to depersonalization/derealization. There was a biochemical reaction that had to have happened unique to the experience of depersonalization/derealization. Neurochemicals are like messages that keep transforming into other messages creating, delivering, effecting, transforming.

I like your ideas and I think they work but I think it's too soon to close the book on it. There is still something else to be known, don't stop now keep looking


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## edward_morden (Oct 12, 2009)

Tommygunz said:


> among the professional opinions that have favored my theory and treatment,(one of whom being Dr. Mauricio Sierra-Siegert)


Who are the other professionals? Could you please tell use what other professional opinions favored your theory and treatment?



Tommygunz said:


> naturally you would correct the imbalance, now serotonin, among all of it's wonderful qualities, has one particularly useful one in our case, THE ABILITY TO NATURALLY AND SAFELY REGULATE DOPAMINE!


So if dopamin is able to naturally and safely regulate dopamine, what is able to naturally and safely regulate serotonin? I mean, what tells your body during depersonalization to generate now less serotonin?

Science knows already so many years that decreased serotonin creates anxiety, depression, etc.. and increased dopamine hallucinations, delusions etc. but still they couldn't cure depression, anxiety or schizophrenia whatever. Why do you believe that you could now stop depersonalization with exactly the same failed approach? 
It helped you a bit. It decreased your anxiety. Thats good but even wikipedia tells me that it can do that but nothing more. 
You have to find what is naturally controlling serotonin to really make the different. 
Besides the problem is that you are just reading what other people discovered. Dont you think that these people who discovered that serotonin controlls your anxiety, mood whatever have not already thought of using vitamins etc. to increase it for e.g. depressive people?

I had to laugh about your sources^^... The knowledge which is contained in them knows every 8 grader^^ 
Besides its strange that you claim its "your" theory. You just found something out what is a very common knowledge. Nothing more.

Besides.. I got some of the ingredients but I have a important question. How much should I take every day? Like 500mg choline everyday???
and 1,000mg inositol? Thats like 10 capsules of my choline and inositol everyday. I guess I should get 500mg capsules instead of 200mg and 100mgs?

Where did you get your information about the dosage from? I mean why 500mg choline etc? Is that like the regular dosage in america or is there any other logic behind it?


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

well to start i called it my theory because it is my approach to DP, the doses are experimental, but are based on a balance of the RDA and upper intake level. and wikipedia was not my main source, just where i got started, it would take me a very long time to to track down all links and articles again. as far as other professional, Dr. Dean Crossgrove (my doctor), claymore spoke to his doctor about it and his doctor thought he should try it, and the big one was the pharmacist where i work, Darren, 20 years experience as a pharmacist, and 8 years experience with pharmaceutical testing.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2009)

Tommygunz said:


> well to start i called it my theory because it is my approach to DP, the doses are experimental, but are based on a balance of the RDA and upper intake level. and wikipedia was not my main source, just where i got started, it would take me a very long time to to track down all links and articles again. as far as other professional, Dr. Dean Crossgrove (my doctor), claymore spoke to his doctor about it and his doctor thought he should try it, and the big one was the pharmacist where i work, Darren, 20 years experience as a pharmacist, and 8 years experience with pharmaceutical testing.


Have you not saved your references then? :/

edward_morden - I think the theory here is that supplementing serotonin precursors (Remember kids, serotonin and dopamine themselves cannot cross the blood-brain barrier) alone is not the problem its that with most things that increase serotonin, dopamine is also increased - the ideal effect would be to either increase serotonin and have no effect on dopamine, or to increase serotonin and slightly down-regulate/decrease dopamine.


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

thank you for getting it, the intent is to raise serotonin without even touching dopamine. once the serotonin is restored it will do what is needed with dopamine to recreate an even balance.  and no unfortunately i wasn't intending on this going so far so it never occurred to me to track my progress, until i had gone too far to backtrack. you know i had to keep my momentum going. but these links, will get anyone interested going in the same direction that i went.


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

Tommygunz said:


> THE INGREDIENTS - to start
> choline - 500 mg
> inositol - 1,000 mg - 2,000 mg
> 5 HTP - 50 mg - 100 mg
> ...


Do you take each of these once a day?


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2009)

Tommygunz said:


> thank you for getting it, the intent is to raise serotonin without even touching dopamine. once the serotonin is restored it will do what is needed with dopamine to recreate an even balance.  and no unfortunately i wasn't intending on this going so far so it never occurred to me to track my progress, until i had gone too far to backtrack. you know i had to keep my momentum going. but these links, will get anyone interested going in the same direction that i went.


yeah gotcha  its easy to get lost in a maze of link to link to links. Good trick is to right click open in new tab, then you keep your original page 

Did you notice the link with dopamine being released along with adrenaline/epinephrine and noradrenaline/norepinephrine (and in fact being a precursor to these) in the fight or flight response? I think this must be another key link


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

surfingisfun001 said:


> Tommygunz said:
> 
> 
> > THE INGREDIENTS - to start
> ...


yes i also take a calcium, magneium, vitamin D complex. containing 100% of the RDA of each.


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## JoCZker (Jul 31, 2009)

Thank you for your work. I had some questions but mostly i figured it out. So i have just one question. I am on antidepresive medicine. Do you think that it can be problem when taking this vitamins? I know your not doctor, but still.


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## Absentis (Jul 10, 2007)

Neurotransmitter imbalances are unfalsifiable. There's no way to test if people have the imbalances that you hypothesize exist in people with dp/dr.

It's a shame really.


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2009)

Absentis said:


> Neurotransmitter imbalances are unfalsifiable. There's no way to test if people have the imbalances that you hypothesize exist in people with dp/dr.
> 
> It's a shame really.


No, you can't confirm if there is an imbalance but you can tell yourself if a supplement is making you feel better, bar placebo but even placebo is better than nothing


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## backagain (Aug 8, 2009)

Absentis said:


> Neurotransmitter imbalances are unfalsifiable. There's no way to test if people have the imbalances that you hypothesize exist in people with dp/dr.
> 
> It's a shame really.


On the contrary, there are plenty of people who have tested their own hypothesized neurotransmitter imbalances. We do that all the time by trying all these anti-depressants, anti - psychotics, anti- convulsants etc. Except we require the knowledge of a professional who has been taught a certain way. When we become our own psychologists and psychiatrists then we can tune in to what our own nervous system is telling us. Each and every transmitter has it's own job. Each one of these types of medicines either inhibit (antagonize) or release (agonize) either selective or non-selectively a wide range of neurotransmitters. That's why they have so many different medications on the market. With respect to each person's unique brain chemistry the drugs will either help, have no action , or make things worst. Everyone is UNIQUE.

Those are the clues we can use to determine the levels of our own neurotransmitters and the biochemical reactions that occur. By researching and studying the biochemical actions of the drugs and our psychological/physiological responses we CAN have the ability to find what it is that's going on. By accepting the reality of what's going on and taking the steps needed to get better, nothing will change sitting on your ass and thinking negative thoughts. It takes determination, positive balance and effort, what you reap is what you sew.

We are not just flesh and bone, Your nervous system is your reality, ignoring that part of reality and _assuming_ other factors are at fault is relatively unwise. Look around you is there someone out there that's gonna help you ? We have to help ourselves first then help each other, by using our own minds and bodies to find the answers to feeling the way we want to feel. The alternative is a dependence on an imaginary separate self to take hold of our lives and guide us in the right direction which is completely irrational wishful thinking. It's time to evolve


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## goldengirlz (Sep 16, 2008)

tommygunz,

I keep meaning to ask you...what are (or were) your symptoms of DP/DR. I know you say this vitamin treatment has really significantly helped reduce your symptoms. But as everyone experiences DP/DR a little different, I'm just wondering what's improved. Can you list what your problems were? And then say which ones have been alleviated?

thanks


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## rob35235 (Feb 21, 2009)

K, so I'm looking at this http://www.walgreens.com/store/store/pr ... viewHeader

Ingredients:
Nutrition Facts
Serving Size : 1 dropperful
Serving per Container : 59

Amount Per Serving % Daily value*
Riboflavin (as 2.25 mg flavin mononucleotide [coenzymated])1.7mg 100.0 
Niacin (as Niacinamide)20.0mg 100.0 
Vitamin B-6 (as Pyridoxine Hydrochloride)2.0mg 100.0 
Vitamin B12 (as Cyanocobalamin)1.2mg 20000.0 
Pantothenic Acid (as Dexpanthenol)30.0mg 300.0

This appears to have the..
B2 (riboflavin)
B3 (niacin)
B5 (patothenic acid) 
B6
B12
...all covered. What does this leave off? Also, why the hell is the B12 in 20,000% daily recommended dosage and the others 100-300?


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

goldengirlz
my DR was overall stronger than my DP, although they did trade places from time to time. my DR was a lack of awareness of my surroundings, like if i closed my eyes i couldn't find my way around my apartment. distortion of vision as though there was an invisible barrier ON my eyes and overall physical stimulation was dull. my DP was a loss of identity in a sense, like my soul was screaming "I'M STILL IN HERE" but no one could here it, including me. the scariest moments we're when i noticed my internal monolog but couldn't recognize it, and couldn't recognize what was catching myself not recognize it. i lost familiarity with my immediate family, like i didn't know how to act like myself around them, for months couldn't look my girlfriend in the eyes because when i did i felt like i never really knew her. i lost all sense of time for a while, the whole day could go by and feel like ten minutes and eternity at the same time. i also high social anxiety, and obsessive repeat thoughts, like spending the whole day thinking "what is wrong with me", those word went through my mind more in ten minutes than they do in most peoples whole lives.
as a whole every symptom has either improved a lot or gone away completely, for example i don't have DP at all now, but am still battling with DR. it is mainly present when tired, hungry or at work (which my work is an anxiety and stress breeding ground). as far as going about my day in my free time, i feel great. keep in mind, i am only in my fourth week of this treatment so i would be a medical miracle if everything was totally better already, but at the same time i have come to think of DP/DR as something i used to have. also i reached a plateau in my treatment around week three, which is what got me searching for more, i could sense that i was missing something, which is what got me to add 5 HTP. while everything was increasing serotonin activity, i still needed to produce more serotonin. in the last week my DR has shown more signs of coming to a close, so at the moment i am waiting to see how far this will go, but the more research i do, the more confident i am.
i am also recommending the book "THE CRAVING BRAIN" (second addition) for anyone who wants a deeper understanding of why we have this disorder. while the book is directed at addiction, it completely describes every cause for every as aspect that attributes to DP/DR, and the funny thing is that was not it's intention.


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

rob35235 said:


> K, so I'm looking at this http://www.walgreens.com/store/store/pr ... viewHeader
> 
> Ingredients:
> Nutrition Facts
> ...


sweet, thats what i have. there is no tolerable upper intake on B12 so whatever you don't use you will just pee out. you should also get B9 (folic acid) and B1 (thiamine), separately is fine. any other questions just PM me so i can answer you more directly.


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## peachy (Feb 9, 2008)

i'm gonna try all of these supplements as soon as i get the money. although i'm gonna add vitamin D as our poor souls in michigan are probably already lacking the D we need. as a side note, those of you living in cold, gray places, vitamin D supplements are a savior since your body does not produce vitamin d nor can you get it from very many foods. mostly just from sunlight (or the supplement).


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## OZ3 (Jun 1, 2009)

it seems like it would be quite a chore to get all of those supplements, and pretty expensive.


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## Ludovico (Feb 9, 2007)

While I commend you for effort, I think it's important to realize the intricate nature of the things you're dealing in. Neurology, Psychology, Pharmacology, Psychiatry etc are all fantastically complicated and continually developing branches of science and medicine. A sizable portion of the world's greatest minds work in these fields every day - undergrads, PhD's, research scientists, medical doctors - and the complex interactions in the human brain still remain largely a mystery to modern science. Even those companies who dedicate literally hundreds of billions of dollars into researching these things still don't understand them fully. Many of the most successful medications have unknown or little understood methods of action.. they work, and their benefits outweigh their risks - so we use them.

While you're intentions are definitely honorable (and you should be commended), it's important to realize that these matters are likely far above a single persons realm of understanding - especially when your references are largely online and therefore difficult to substantiate. It's difficult to show what good (or harm) you'd be doing to yourself by engaging in self medication like this. I'm not saying you're going to overdose on vitamin B12.. but we really don't fully understand the implications of these hormone/vitamin cocktails. I know this condition makes it's victims desperate for an answer, but proceed with great caution and trepidation.


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

i appreciate what you have to say, i have been very apprehensive about posting this so publicly. i decided to do it because through referencing against reference, everything was in agreement, and the potential benefit, dramatically outweighed the potential risk. i know my reference list is bleak and kind of a joke, it was intended to only offer a starting point. while it seems as though wikipedia was my source, it certainly was not. most of my research was done at my public library, and taken from psychology and neuroscience books. my current favorite is "THE CRAVING BRAIN", it explains and supports my theory in full, which is funny because i drew this all up before i even started reading it. yes this is dangerous and mysterious territory, but if we don't start doing something for ourselves......., then we are simply waiting for someone else to do it for us.

if i am going to be a member of the DP community, then i am going to be a member of the part that is doing something about it. :wink:


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## LadyT (Oct 19, 2009)

watch it with inositol...I used to work at a health food store and it is commonly bought and used to cut into cociaine.
If one has panic attacks, one should avoid inositol.
not to say that it might help other issues...for me, I have enough panic.
and I do take Vit by IV and IM and have for many years...
however have been thrown off tx lately, and that could def be contributing to how I feel now.


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

LadyT said:


> watch it with inositol...I used to work at a health food store and it is commonly bought and used to cut into cociaine.
> If one has panic attacks, one should avoid inositol.


Even if certain drug dealers use it to cut their blow, the supplement companies make their money and the coke heads get some bodily supplementation. :mrgreen: What is the reason to avoid inositol if one has panic attacks?


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

actually, i thought this was interesting. many studies have concluded therapeutic benefit towards panic disorder from inositol. :?


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## goldengirlz (Sep 16, 2008)

wow, tommygunz, you and I share a very similar experience. I could totally relate to most of your symptoms. Which gives me some hope that perhaps following your treatment plan will give me relief too.

I'm almost afraid to ask, how long did it take for it to start to work? I've been taking the vitamins for about 3 days now and nothing earth-shattering yet. I have noticed a little sharpening of things in my vision, but it doesn't always last. But when it's there, it's like, "Whoah! that's different!"

I will keep you posted if this works for me. I think people are being overly-cautious about the vitamin thing. Hell, my docs don't bat an eye at putting me on antidepressant while BREASTFEEDING. I think we should give Tommygunz a break for sharing with us something he tried that worked for him. If I found something that worked for me, I would come back to these message boards and shout it from the mountaintop. So I say give him a break and not treat him like he's a hack-researcher. This is information from a fellow sufferer and not an expert.

-gg


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

HA, throughout this process i have probably used the words "whoa, thats different" numerous times. ya know it's a little shaky at first, you can't really tell which direction things are going, but then you look back on how you felt 2 weeks ago and say, "wow, have i really come this far already". i don't know if you saw my most recent post but, my vision (which is one of my only remaining symptoms) fully corrected for the first time for about ten minutes straight tonight. that is probably the biggest single event i have felt since all of this started six months ago, i was so excited i called my mom.


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## Claymore (Jun 13, 2009)

LadyT said:


> watch it with inositol...I used to work at a health food store and it is commonly bought and used to cut into cociaine.


My Dad told me he used to do that when I told him I was taking this stuff. :lol:


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## Constantine (Apr 8, 2009)

imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=73284dbe325f47bf0358f698e0a7ec3b&showtopic=20483&st=0&p=224981&#entry224981

I don't have enough posts under my belt to provide functional link a link so just copy paste that.

Interesting discussion regarding 5-htp


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

"Due to the conversion of 5-HTP into serotonin by the liver, there is a significant risk of heart valve disease from serotonin's effect on the heart.[34][35] In Europe, 5-HTP is prescribed with carbidopa to prevent the conversion of 5-HTP into serotonin until it reaches the brain.[36]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptophan#Dietary_sources

5-HTP remains (according to wikipedia atleast) a prescription-drug in Europe, which would explain why the person at the healthstore did not know about it and later after investigating could not order it for me. This leads me to think that Tryptophan would be preferable to 5-HTP, if the 5-HTP is not combined with this "carbidopa" thing. Then again, isnt Tryptophan turned into 5-HTP, or is it the other way around. Im confused.

"5-Hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP; Oxitriptan) is a naturally occurring amino acid, a precursor to the neurotransmitter serotonin and an intermediate in tryptophan metabolism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-Hydroxytryptophan


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## backagain (Aug 8, 2009)

Inzom said:


> "Due to the conversion of 5-HTP into serotonin by the liver, there is a significant risk of heart valve disease from serotonin's effect on the heart.[34][35] In Europe, 5-HTP is prescribed with carbidopa to prevent the conversion of 5-HTP into serotonin until it reaches the brain.[36]"
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptophan#Dietary_sources
> 
> ...


You're right i mentioned this in the other thread, 5-htp has a relatively short duration and effect in comparison to supps like

tryptophan and also Rhodeola Rosea which I think are better sources for supplemental serotonin boosting. The heart thing is what bothers me too, it's not good for the heart.

And the synthesis goes like this tryptophan ---> 5htp ---> Serotonin


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

well you make a good point. however the problem with regular old tryptophan is it's poor absorption. it is generally blocked out by neutral amino acids. with this form of treatment inositol alone would render tryptophan useless. and as far as heart health goes, 5 HTP will not be used long enough to have adverse affect on it. the 5 HTP is intended to be used only until recovery is obtained. the B vitamins are the only lifelong commitment in this, and that is only to maintain homeostasis once bio-balance balance is achieved.


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

Thank you guys for taking the time to do all this and for answering my questions. I lack the motivation/energy/reality-perception/memory/logical thinking (I?m a mess right now) to do it properly myself.

What about this qoute from the person nicknamed "ikaros" from this thread http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php? ... ntry225045

"Tyrosine and phenylalanine are suppose to reduce derealization feelings. In fact I immediately started taking tyrosine when the abovementioned freakshow started to get out of hand, I recovered in 1,5 days."

I?m so confused about what to take. I am only on Clonazepam (Klonopin) right now. I suffer from bad memory, dpd/dr, generally "slow thinking", bad logical thinking, my verbal skills are worse than ever (i struggle to find words when talking etc) And I wasnt always this bad and some of the stuff didnt exist at all. I dont want to sound arrogant but I?ve always been known to be intelligent and have an excellent vocabulary and be a fast learner etc.

The only thing I?m completely sure of is (when I can find it) sublingual B-complex and maybe Inositol. But it seems like I need something to boost my Serotonine and Dopamine levels. And antidepressants are out of the question, I was on them for 7-8 years and just quit 2-3 months ago and that was a very good decision. I think they have done more harm than good.


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## backagain (Aug 8, 2009)

Tommygunz said:


> well you make a good point. however the problem with regular old tryptophan is it's poor absorption. it is generally blocked out by neutral amino acids. with this form of treatment inositol alone would render tryptophan useless. and as far as heart health goes, 5 HTP will not be used long enough to have adverse affect on it. the 5 HTP is intended to be used only until recovery is obtained. the B vitamins are the only lifelong commitment in this, and that is only to maintain homeostasis once bio-balance balance is achieved.


Hmm ... interesting stuff there Tommy

what can I say i hope you're right


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

Inzom said:


> But it seems like I need something to boost my Serotonine and Dopamine levels. And antidepressants are out of the question, I was on them for 7-8 years and just quit 2-3 months ago and that was a very good decision. I think they have done more harm than good.


you could look into supplementing with levodopa (l-dopa) if you feel you need more dopamine.


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

I dont KNOW if i need more dopamine. Hell I dont know anything except for how I "feel". I guess my best bet is to try your list, altho im gonna start with lower dosages except with the B-complex. Is the list at the top of this thread still the most current/relevant one? You are refering to some thread in your signature.


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## Constantine (Apr 8, 2009)

I've had a theory that low serotonin and high dopamine levels are responsible for my DR (I can't relate to DP symptoms). I find the DR state to be quite similar to being high, and we all now what chemical is responsible for that "spaced out" feeling. I feel more DRed after I've been around people smoking cannabis, normally the next day. In my opinion, dopamine is dominating our brains due to a lack of serotonin, so I'm not sure that increasing dopamine levels is a good idea, as tommy said, keeping dopamine level stable until you have enough serotonin to restore the balance. I also always feel better on sunny days (which is rare in the UK), serotoin production is related to the amount of sunlight that one receives.

I am not saying that this is absolutely correct, but there is a pattern here. I am definitely going to try this complex out as soon as I run the doses by my doctor. Thank you Tommygunz.


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

your welcome, and if your doctor suggests higher doses of inositol let me know. i have been wanting to increase inositol exponentially but quite frankly haven't had the balls to do it without a doctors supervision.


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

Yeah thanks again Tommygunz.


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

WOOHOO!!! 200th post!!! :lol: :mrgreen: :lol:


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## JoCZker (Jul 31, 2009)

As i said before, thanks for your work. But i am thinking about it more and more and there is one thing i dont get. If serotin is key to everything, why antidepresives arent miraculous cure as thay rise level of serotonin? Dont get me wrong, i admire your work. Its just that i think this is quite strange. If its that simple that we need many serotonin, why antidepresives arent mostly effective?


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

Because antidepressants are not pure serotonin. They are poison with tons of other shit in them. Infact I dont think they contain serotonin at all, they just "regulate" the levels of serotonin in the brain. And the way they do this is highly questionable/questioned, and not understood. And generally ineffective.


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

JoCZker said:


> As i said before, thanks for your work. But i am thinking about it more and more and there is one thing i dont get. If serotin is key to everything, why antidepresives arent miraculous cure as thay rise level of serotonin? Dont get me wrong, i admire your work. Its just that i think this is quite strange. If its that simple that we need many serotonin, why antidepresives arent mostly effective?


there is more to the picture, i am doing a self experiment right now that i think will be the finishing touch. i'll post on it in a few days once i know how this is gonna work. i am very excited and more confident in this than anything else so far. i am gonna take a few things out of the formula and put a few things in. this might be the end of DP/DR for many of us.


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