# Depersonalization and Meditation



## Guest (Aug 5, 2012)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2191357

"From a review of the literature on meditation and depersonalization and interviews conducted with six meditators, this study concludes that: 1) meditation can cause depersonalization and derealization; 2) the meanings in the mind of the meditator regarding the experience of depersonalization will determine to a great extent whether anxiety is present as part of the experience; 3) there need not be any significant anxiety or impairment in social or occupational functioning as a result of depersonalization; 4) a depersonalized state can become an apparently permanent mode of functioning; 5) patients with Depersonalization Disorder may be treated through a process of symbolic healing--that is, changing the meanings associated with depersonalization in the mind of the patient, thereby reducing anxiety and functional impairment; 6) panic/anxiety may be caused by depersonalization if catastrophic interpretations of depersonalization are present."


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## kaitlynf (Jun 25, 2012)

Native said:


> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2191357
> 
> "From a review of the literature on meditation and depersonalization and interviews conducted with six meditators, this study concludes that: 1) meditation can cause depersonalization and derealization; 2) the meanings in the mind of the meditator regarding the experience of depersonalization will determine to a great extent whether anxiety is present as part of the experience; 3) there need not be any significant anxiety or impairment in social or occupational functioning as a result of depersonalization; 4) a depersonalized state can become an apparently permanent mode of functioning; 5) patients with Depersonalization Disorder may be treated through a process of symbolic healing--that is, changing the meanings associated with depersonalization in the mind of the patient, thereby reducing anxiety and functional impairment; 6) panic/anxiety may be caused by depersonalization if catastrophic interpretations of depersonalization are present."


i dont like number 4.


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2012)

fuck eckhart tolle


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## Fabricio (Dec 22, 2010)

bigdickmcgee said:


> fuck eckhart tolle


eckhart tolle is just one more of us (one depersonalized more)


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## Shapiro (Nov 7, 2011)

This has been a huge corner stone in my recovery. Changing our associations to the dp changes the dp. Depending on how you look at look at it dp can be a gift, a curse, or simply a state of consciousness. Our internal representation of events is what gives them meaning. Meditation helped me to dissolve the negative associations to dp. Ironically, at the time I started becoming comfortable with the dp it started to go away. Funny how stuff like that works. Anyway, interesting post.


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Intrepid Shapiro said:


> This has been a huge corner stone in my recovery. Changing our associations to the dp changes the dp. Depending on how you look at look at it dp can be a gift, a curse, or simply a state of consciousness. Our internal representation of events is what gives them meaning. Meditation helped me to dissolve the negative associations to dp. Ironically, at the time I started becoming comfortable with the dp it started to go away. Funny how stuff like that works. Anyway, interesting post.


So it's gone now is it?

I got depersonalization through a particularly poignant session of meditation where my sense of self seemed to disappear.

Meditation is NOT healthy and should not be recommended to anyone. Anyone who says otherwise has neither the experience nor the intellect required to make such a claim.


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## Shapiro (Nov 7, 2011)

Midnight said:


> So it's gone now is it?
> 
> I got depersonalization through a particularly poignant session of meditation where my sense of self seemed to disappear.
> 
> Meditation is NOT healthy and should not be recommended to anyone. Anyone who says otherwise has neither the experience nor the intellect required to make such a claim.


Not quite. I've gone from 24/7 for 8 years, to minor episodes. I'm sorry you had such a negative experience. You may notice in my post I said it helps "me". I didn't say it would beneficial for everyone. I also mentioned that it was changing the feelings associated with the dp that helped to dissolve it, which meditation helped me to do. But certainly this can be done without mediation. As for it not being healthy, the benefits of mediation are well established and documented. I can understand your strong feelings on this point, but to say its unhealthy and recommending it indicates a lack of intellect or experience is unfair and inaccurate. Everyone is different and will respond/react differently to any given situation. Some people do find it aggravates their dp, or in your case causes it. Thanks for your insight. That is an important point to raise when discussing dp and meditation.


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2012)

Midnight said:


> So it's gone now is it?
> 
> I got depersonalization through a particularly poignant session of meditation where my sense of self seemed to disappear.
> 
> Meditation is NOT healthy and should not be recommended to anyone. Anyone who says otherwise has neither the experience nor the intellect required to make such a claim.


That's also quite a claim to make! Unfair and innacurate is a diplomatic way of putting it. I respect that you had a bad experience that turned you off meditation, and feelings of losing awareness of body and self can occur, but meditation is a blanket term that can mean many things, at least on the surface, but it's all about the quality of the state your in, as such experiences tend not to be disturbing and can be liberating in the deeper states; indeed disturbance may not even be possible due to the quality of those states, because of the physiological changes that are characteristed by them. 
Even if you were to do nothing else, regularly accessing those states resets and recharges you in a profound way. When we are locked into an emergency state of stress and anxiety we become exhausted. Maintaining this condition requires a huge amount of energy. Our bodys can start to shut down non essential systems, leading to depression and loss of cognitive function. When activated we can swing from high anxiety to numb, dissociated sensation. We are living on the edge of our nerves. You only have to read around these boards to see how thinnly stretched, on the end of their tethers, and just plain exhausted people are.
The mind and body naturally recover, but only when we can get out the way long enough to allow them to. These deeper states are healing states, and until I was able to access them regularly, no matter how much progress I had made processing issues, I was always on the edge of burnout. That made processing even harder and I would be in a vicious circle. Many will be familiar with brain wave states, and they are a convenient way to catagorise meditative quality. The surface, thinking, logical state is characteristed by Beta waves. In chronic cases this may include endless ruminating and racing thoughts. Using the imagination, by taking our time to use all our senses in our minds, we activate Alpha waves - the bridge to the subconcious. We then deepen into Theta. After that is Delta, which is usually deep sleep.
A simple formula is first physically relax, then imagine a scene using all your senses to activate Alpha, then go on a journey where you are moving through, in and around your imagined scene to deepen to Theta. Use your senses to make it a real as possible and get as involved in it as you can. 
You may think that it can't be that simple, but keeping it simple is the best way. It really doesn't matter what you imagine. It's state, not content that is important. Make it something that will engage you (your subconscious mind is you, and if you find something boring, so will it). And be patient. And by that I mean when you are actually doing it, I dont mean you have to practice for weeks before expecting changes. Be patient today. You will know when your state has changed because it's quality is different. Your mind may still and your body relax as you let go into the experience.
This sounds easy, and should be, but for us the hard part is the surface disturbance. For that I find it best to spend some time with a mindful process, where you completely accept how you are feeling at that time. You cannot be conflicted when you are accepting everything and not fighting yourself. I allow for a "felt sense", which is where I allow all my thoughts and feelings to just merge together into an overall, amorphous blob of the totality of how I am feeling at that moment, ignoring all detail, and just sit with that until I settle. This is useful so you are not snatching at all the details of your thoughts and feelings, which gets you no-where. I often say that personal integration is what recovery is all about, and that illness is the confusion of being diffused and scattered. In the deeper states we can come back together, rest and heal.
Hope this helps.


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Phantasm said:


> That's also quite a claim to make! Unfair and innacurate is a diplomatic way of putting it. I respect that you had a bad experience that turned you off meditation, and feelings of losing awareness of body and self can occur, but meditation is a blanket term that can mean many things, at least on the surface, but it's all about the quality of the state your in, as such experiences tend not to be disturbing and can be liberating in the deeper states; indeed disturbance may not even be possible due to the quality of those states, because of the physiological changes that are characteristed by them.
> Even if you were to do nothing else, regularly accessing those states resets and recharges you in a profound way. When we are locked into an emergency state of stress and anxiety we become exhausted. Maintaining this condition requires a huge amount of energy. Our bodys can start to shut down non essential systems, leading to depression and loss of cognitive function. When activated we can swing from high anxiety to numb, dissociated sensation. We are living on the edge of our nerves. You only have to read around these boards to see how thinnly stretched, on the end of their tethers, and just plain exhausted people are.
> The mind and body naturally recover, but only when we can get out the way long enough to allow them to. These deeper states are healing states, and until I was able to access them regularly, no matter how much progress I had made processing issues, I was always on the edge of burnout. That made processing even harder and I would be in a vicious circle. Many will be familiar with brain wave states, and they are a convenient way to catagorise meditative quality. The surface, thinking, logical state is characteristed by Beta waves. In chronic cases this may include endless ruminating and racing thoughts. Using the imagination, by taking our time to use all our senses in our minds, we activate Alpha waves - the bridge to the subconcious. We then deepen into Theta. After that is Delta, which is usually deep sleep.
> A simple formula is first physically relax, then imagine a scene using all your senses to activate Alpha, then go on a journey where you are moving through, in and around your imagined scene to deepen to Theta. Use your senses to make it a real as possible and get as involved in it as you can.
> ...


That's not really meditation in it's truest form. That sounds like projection, which isn't meditation.

Though meditation may have a ton of different meanings, true meditation is self-inquiry. Real meditation, as was described by the great sages like Ramana Maharshi, was discovering the root of the 'I' thought. Turns out it vanishes when you look enough. Not good.

I am rarely confident about anything, but one thing that I will say is that meditation can cause terrible side effects. People can use it as a crutch to prevent dealing with emotional pain and there are thousands of people out there doing just that.

Real meditation is almost nihilistic and is not 'beneficial' in the egoic sense. It is NOT, (contrary to what people may believe), a self-improvement tool.

Just be careful.


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Intrepid Shapiro said:


> Not quite. I've gone from 24/7 for 8 years, to minor episodes. I'm sorry you had such a negative experience. You may notice in my post I said it helps "me". I didn't say it would beneficial for everyone. I also mentioned that it was changing the feelings associated with the dp that helped to dissolve it, which meditation helped me to do. But certainly this can be done without mediation. As for it not being healthy, the benefits of mediation are well established and documented. I can understand your strong feelings on this point, but to say its unhealthy and recommending it indicates a lack of intellect or experience is unfair and inaccurate. Everyone is different and will respond/react differently to any given situation. Some people do find it aggravates their dp, or in your case causes it. Thanks for your insight. That is an important point to raise when discussing dp and meditation.


Can you please explain your process of meditation and how it helped with depersonalization or derealization?

Thanks. I'm very interest in what exactly you mean when you say meditation.


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## Shapiro (Nov 7, 2011)

Midnight said:


> Can you please explain your process of meditation and how it helped with depersonalization or derealization?
> 
> Thanks. I'm very interest in what exactly you mean when you say meditation.


Certainly. When I say meditation I also mean mindfulness. The two go hand in hand, meditation acts as training and a reset for mindfulness. During formal meditation practice I simply concentrate on my breathing. Other times I do guided meditation. Thoughts do arise, with a non-judgmental awareness I allow them to pass without attaching meaning to them. For me it's time to simply "be" without analyzing my environment through my own personal filter. Just accepting everything as is. In "real time" it's a beneficial skill because I can consciously observe my thoughts and their place of origin. Much of dp persists based on fear, its common this fear comes from pre-conditioned reactions that are entirely unnecessary. With mindfulness I can break out of auto pilot and respond to the situation at hand without falling victim to outdated cycles. I disagree that meditation is nihilistic. It encourages accepting all aspects of life, including the ego. Nothing in existence is denied, it's presented in its true form free of our internal representation. Fear, taking things personally, jealousy, hate comes from our ego making judgment calls based on our perception versus reality. Honoring your ego, along with all elements of yourself is an integral part of the process. Many of the great sages had the benefit of living in seclusion. I found the vanishing of "I" very comforting. When I stopped defining myself by my job, my roles, my appearance and so on, I found a freedom to truly be myself. However seclusion for most of us is unrealistic. I made an urban adaption in accepting the "I" as part of the human experience, while understanding these elements as transient. There are days I still struggle. Like any recovery it's a process, there are no quick fixes. Choosing a recovery path is very personal. One's salvation can be another's destruction. I could argue that feeding the ego is an emotional crutch and in itself nihilistic, but I see the truth in both our statements. The answer comes down to personal experience, perception and preferences. Your points are justifiable and do much to dissolve the romance surrounding meditation and illuminate the darker side some will experience. Thanks, passion and critical thinking seems to be a rare trait these days.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2012)

[quote name='Midnight' timestamp='1344793857' post='262673']
That's not really meditation in it's truest form. That sounds like projection, which isn't meditation.

Though meditation may have a ton of different meanings, true meditation is self-inquiry. Real meditation, as was described by the great sages like Ramana Maharshi, was discovering the root of the 'I' thought. Turns out it vanishes when you look enough. Not good.

I am rarely confident about anything, but one thing that I will say is that meditation can cause terrible side effects. People can use it as a crutch to prevent dealing with emotional pain and there are thousands of people out there doing just that.

Real meditation is almost nihilistic and is not 'beneficial' in the egoic sense. It is NOT, (contrary to what people may believe), a self-improvement tool.

Just be careful.

I'm abit dubious of your use of terms like "real" or "true meditation". That sounds to me like the kind of thing different schools would say arguing semantics. You seem to be defining "real meditation" on the topic used, but that is just content, and again I would say that it is state, not content that defines the quality or nature of the meditative experience, and therefor whether or not you are really meditating at all. Whether you are contemplating the root of "I" or thinking about what to have for lunch, unless it is used as a point of focus that deepens concentration and state, you are really only thinking. In fact, that is usually the real purpose of the subject matter chosen, to deepen state to where they realise that the question is actually meaningless, just a artificial concept and not a living experience. but anything can be used for that. You could picture a duck playing tennis, if you wanted to. Maybe it satisfies the ego of the student to give them some high concept to ponder on until they realise it is just words. I also don't always think that trauma or mental disturbance in general is taken into account very often in teaching meditation, which can lead to confusion. I also suspect that in many teachings it is already assumed that the student will be able to deepen state and have a basic grounding. So your note of caution is a valid one. When people are disturbed they should not be ruminating on metaphysical matters or such-like that will only disturb them. Because state defines the quality of experience, if you are in a troubled surface state, it is not very surprising if your experience proves troubling. That is why I gave simple, safe instructions for deepening state, and did not dwell on philosophical matters, as that is all someone need concern themselves with if they are looking to recover from mental health issues. truly relaxing and letting go into a deeper state is soothing, like being wrapped in a warm blanket. Once there, it is very difficult to be disturbed by anything. Once you are familiar with doing this, it is then a personal choice as to whether or not you want to look at deeper existential questions, but, funnily enough, you tend to find with deeper states that most of these questions just dissolve by themselves.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Nihilism is one of the potential dangers of meditation, which is why you need to follow the Middle Way and do other practices like generating compassion and doing charity to avoid "falling into the pit of the void"

For someone with DP you are better off doing something like Tai Chi or standing meditation (Zhan Zhuang) as it will bring your awareness more into your body where your emotions are located


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

But coming back to the original post by Native I think it makes a good point about our minds perception of the events which happen to us, it is our thinking and beliefs about things which causes most of our persistant suffering rather than the actual events of our lives. Meditation can help challenge that thinking but there are other safer methods like the work of Byron Katie.


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## steelydan (Nov 23, 2012)

So lets get this straight. I've heard about and experienced increased DP/DR during mediatation but I've also heard about the positive effects of meditation in terms of its healing potential, specifically towards stress induced conditions like DP/DR. So is meditation good or bad? Worthwhile or potentially just another contributor to DP/DR. Need to get to the crux of the issue here


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## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Midnight said:


> That's not really meditation in it's truest form. That sounds like projection, which isn't meditation.
> 
> Though meditation may have a ton of different meanings, true meditation is self-inquiry. Real meditation, as was described by the great sages like Ramana Maharshi, was discovering the root of the 'I' thought. Turns out it vanishes when you look enough. Not good.
> 
> ...


I agree true meditation is self inquiry aka Jnana Yoga. Can meditation cause terrible side effects... yes lulz. I disagree that meditation is bad though, depersonalization is part of the process. I originally experienced EXTREME DP/DR from meditating.


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2012)

IMO dr/dp [not simply existential] does not go well with meditation. I believe breathing exercises will help. Trying to get on a higher plane is a mistake because you can't even make total sense of the plane you are on.


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

sunyata samsara said:


> I agree true meditation is self inquiry aka Jnana Yoga. Can meditation cause terrible side effects... yes lulz. I disagree that meditation is bad though, depersonalization is part of the process. I originally experienced EXTREME DP/DR from meditating.


What 'process' is it part of?

I meditated, I became depersonalized, 2 YEARS AGO.... that's not a 'process' because nothing has changed.....


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Susto said:


> what makes you belive that? just out of curiosity...


From what I've seen on this forum among others, it appears that many people think of meditation as merely putting attention onto your breathing - in a very very very basic form, this is what it is, but real meditation is not a self-help technique or self-improvement exercise, it's a removal of self entirely. You see, real meditation means discovering the nature of oneself as the observer of phenomena, that one is formless consciousness at the root. It's not about 'feeling better' - which is what 99% of people think meditation is.

Read some of the stories of Ramana Maharshi for instance among other gurus. They experienced something called samadhi which is an altered state of consciousness. These states of meditation were so deep that they felt like they had no body. There are stories of sages who died because of this, they just didn't breathe anymore because they went 'beyond the body' so to speak.

People experience complete personality changes and complete transformations, sometimes forgetting their own names and taking new ones, all through meditation.

And people REALLY think that it can be good for someone who ALREADY feels detached? Your stupider than you think if you believe so.


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## Guest (Nov 25, 2012)

There is a big difference between losing your ego, and dissociation.
You have to start with yourself "in your body" first before you want to venture any farther.
Hence, meditation with dr/dp has a whole different goal. And is somewhat ineffective for seeking out higher intrinsic levels.


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2012)

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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> 1) meditation can cause depersonalization and derealization;


As someone who has recovered from chronic DP/DR (for a long time now) and has worked with and supported others for over a decade, I can say that meditation is a fairly common trigger for DP/DR.



> 3) there need not be any significant anxiety or impairment in social or occupational functioning as a result of depersonalization;


When DP/DR is chronic to the extreme there are no feelings of anxiety. However in personal experience and in every other case I have met - "or impairment in social or occupational functioning as a result of depersonalization;" this bit is not entirely true, no impairment in social or occupational functioning would tend to be only something observed by others; the chronic DP/DR sufferer is going through hell which does affect their functioning in these areas; although it might not be obvious to observers.



> 4) a depersonalized state can become an apparently permanent mode of functioning;





> i dont like number 4.


I've never known anybody who has never recovered, although this statement is almost certainly true. I have also known people who have suffered for very long periods of time.

However DP/DR; although tough and horrendous, is very beatable. Try not to dwell on it!


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## peanut butter (Nov 9, 2012)

Why does your idea of recovery sound more like a coping strategy?
You sure that the recovered ones haven't just forgotten how was it to live normally and now consider DP to be normal?


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2013)

Native said:


> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2191357
> 
> "From a review of the literature on meditation and depersonalization and interviews conducted with six meditators, this study concludes that: 1) meditation can cause depersonalization and derealization;


If it causes DP/DR, it´s not real meditation. Real meditation can help DP/DR go away for sure, I´ve tried it myself.


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> If it causes DP/DR, it´s not real meditation. Real meditation can help DP/DR go away for sure, I´ve tried it myself.


Sorry Odysseus, many things can trigger DP/DR and this is definitely one of them. I won't argue over the paradox that it can help too. But it is100% one of the major triggers....maybe people do it wrong (I don't know); but it is 100% one of the things that can trigger DP/DR...a pretty common one too.


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> true recovery from DPD is rare, but very possible


Susto, I have so much time for you, but recovery is common and achievable.



> and again the myth that meditation causes DPD


And again, I have so much respect for you as you are often the voice of reason on this forum. I don't say "meditation causes DP/DR" but is a very common trigger (possibly the third after anxiety and drugs)....I have personal experience on this one and a couple of decades talking to others. It is also one of the triggers medicine and science has a reasonable (I say reasonable compared to their poor understanding of this condition) understanding and evidence of.

Reply to my PM mate (I'm not full of shit honestly)


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

odysseus said:


> If it causes DP/DR, it´s not real meditation. Real meditation can help DP/DR go away for sure, I´ve tried it myself.


No. Sorry, but just no.

If it makes it go away, then why are you posting here?

Meditation can mean many things, but true meditation is nothing to do with 'feeling better'. The sages of the world who sought awakening didn't seek awakening to 'feel better'.

Meditation that is used by people in Western society as a health benefit is still a FORM of meditation, but it isn't 'real' in the sense that it is still just a desire to 'feel better'.

Real meditation is a quest for self-realisation, not improving your breathing or getting rid of anxiety. There is a clear difference and those of you defending it likely have little experience with it.

Read below for more information.

http://www.swamij.com/frawley-self-inquiry.htm


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2013)

Midnight said:


> So it's gone now is it?
> 
> I got depersonalization through a particularly poignant session of meditation where my sense of self seemed to disappear.
> 
> Meditation is NOT healthy and should not be recommended to anyone. Anyone who says otherwise has neither the experience nor the intellect required to make such a claim.


I used to meditate, under guidance of a teacher, and it was actually one of the most wonderful activities I ever did. It removed my panic attacks from my life and I just had to thank my teacher for it, as others on the class didn't seem to click with it, yet it was a godsend for me.
So I think it's fair to say that what works for some, may not work for others, but don't forget that it works for some.

Of course I think that you *can* meditate incorrectly and then it can cause harm. When I meditated it was a combination of breathing techniques and visualisations. Pretty gentle (but wonderful) stuff.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2013)

Susto said:


> true recovery from DPD is rare, but very possible
> 
> and again the myth that meditation causes DPD


Where is this evidence for it being rare?

Think of all the people who have come and gone from the forum... There must be thousands of success stories in that bunch of folk alone.


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

I can't believe that anyone would deny that meditation could cause chronic constant depersonalization. I am living fucking proof!

I wasn't depersonalised.

Then I meditated deeply and had a panic attack

Now I am constantly depersonalised.

Barely anyone who meditates has had panic attacks like these because barely anyone who meditates actually DOES self-inquiry and goes into DEEP meditation.

If you were to actually do it, as the gurus and sages of history have instructed to do it, you would most likely experience exactly what I have experienced, depending on the kind of person you are and the kind of mind you have.


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> I wasn't depersonalised.
> 
> Then I meditated deeply and had a panic attack
> 
> Now I am constantly depersonalised.


As I said, one of the most common causes and well documented. Just because you mediate doesn't mean you will get DP/DR but it's a fairly common trigger for sufferers, many go instantly into Chronic DP/DR without any anxiety or panic. Still on the upside most I have spoken to have recovered.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2013)

Midnight said:


> I can't believe that anyone would deny that meditation could cause chronic constant depersonalization. I am living fucking proof!
> 
> I wasn't depersonalised.
> 
> ...


Midnight, I respect your view, and that it may have triggered some problems, but I'll speak frankly if you don't mind, without intention of causing offence:

Even just going into deep relaxation can trigger a panic attack in some people, when there is fear just below the surface. It maybe the fear of letting go. That if we relinquish control, bad things will happen -a kind of magical thinking. We have to keep a grip, a hold, or it all falls apart. A fear cycle can then begin or one we already had and touched on is reinforced. Letting go is very powerful, and can be intense when there is trapped levels of distress there, but just below those are deeper levels of peace and relief.

Doing this wasn't really any different to me, because I was so traumatised anyway, there wasn't a lot more fear could do, as I was living it anyway. I appreciate this may have given me an advantage because there wasn't often much contrast to affect me.

I do think that when you talk about self-inquiry and going deep you are confusing things. I suspect you meditated, started to hit a deeper state while still conscious enough to freak yourself out with conscious abstract philosophising, panicked and spent your time since trying to stay above that fear. Although not in meditation, that's kinda like what I did with reality itself. Self inquiry is a "doing" in conscious states that blocks going deep. When you go deep it's more like a happening. Things seem to unfold themselves, and I believe that's because the mind is designed to naturally unkink blocks and resolve problems, when it is allowed to do so. Deeper states, and I accept they are not always easy to access when we are troubled, it takes patience when we are doing it, can be freaky at first, like a dragon thrashing around off the chain (force of imagination/subconscious), but that is countered by the deeper state, that affects true physiological changes and protects you like a warm cocoon.

So you discern between what is real meditation and what isn't, but I say all paths lead to the same place: You. And that the difference is only on the scattered surface.

Confusion comes from ideas about emptiness and being nothing, but these are just ways of explaining something that a depressed mind will interpret badly. Trying to consciously force such concepts in meditation is not going to help, because another way of putting it is "clarity" "space" "peace" "awareness". The absence of disturbance not being "emptiness" but feeling completely and radiantly present.

So yeah, I've rambled on abit too long, but that's why I talked about meditations using imagination to deepen state and relax rather than trying to plough yourself crazy with "self-inquiry". It's an experience, not an idea.


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> Midnight, I respect your view, and that it may have triggered some problems, but I'll speak frankly if you don't mind, without intention of causing offence:
> 
> Even just going into deep relaxation can trigger a panic attack in some people, when there is fear just below the surface. It maybe the fear of letting go.


Many people, have had their DP/DR triggered by meditation without any panic attack. I'm not saying meditation is a bad thing but their are many many cases where it has triggered DP/DR.....so have a lot other things just using smoking pot for one small example. Maybe they got the meditation wrong, I truly don't know...but the fact remains many cases of DP/DR have been triggered through meditating.

And for anybody reading I wouldn't spend too much time focusing on what caused your DP/DR but on recovering from it. This was one the the main things that helped my recovery and I know this is true of many others who have recovered too.


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

JJ70 said:


> As I said, one of the most common causes and well documented. Just because you mediate doesn't mean you will get DP/DR but it's a fairly common trigger for sufferers, many go instantly into Chronic DP/DR without any anxiety or panic. Still on the upside most I have spoken to have recovered.


Indeed. So presumably I now have to pay you to find out how they did recover? :?


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> Indeed. So presumably I now have to pay you to find out how they did recover? :?


Harsh; I never refer to any paid publications I'm associated with, of which there is one. It is also "not for profit" and includes ongoing contact via email (not to the standard we would like as this is voluntary...do the math it does not even cover expenses). Most of what is there we also give away for free, check my posts here and elsewhere.

Any difficulties or issues PM me, I don't post on here or elsewhere for any other reason than to help.

JJ


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## Haumea (Jul 11, 2009)

I'm sorry, there is no One True Meditation. This is just an opinion of someone convinced by something in the absence of wider knowledge, not some established truth.

Two popular types of meditation in the West are mantra meditation (such as TM) and mindfulness meditation (such as body scan meditation.) There does seem to be evidence that mantra meditation can trigger DP (especially considering that those who are likely to begin practice are already stressed out and predisposed to it) but there isn't much evidence that mindfulness causes DP.

And it's pretty clear why: one type is literally dissociative - it takes focus off the body and being present; the other maintains focus on the body and being present. Two opposing mechanisms are involved.


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## Guest (Feb 6, 2013)

I do think I've covered all these things in my posts on this thread, so feel I'd just be repeating myself.

It can sound mysterious, but it's no different to different levels of being awake or asleep, it's just the level of awareness you apply to it.

All the surface details are no more significant than the sheep you count, it's the state they induce.

Being deeply relaxed, at peace, starting to dream, but being aware of it, may well be all you need to do. Sweet dreams


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Well, it is my first hand experience, so that's all I have to go on. I still doubt whether many people on this website have had real experience of meditation, tbh.

I definitely had problems with low self-esteem and anxiety / depressive tendencies beforehand, but I never experienced depersonalisation BEFORE meditation. I know that for a 100% FACT. I actually got a PM earlier from a lady whose husband also started experiencing this after a meditation retreat.... so there you go.

When I was meditating alot, I went through some of the darkest stuff imaginable, it was horrible... constant panic... staying up all night, constant fight or flight activated, feeling like my brain had been reset and that I was a child again... I was unable to speak for around 2 days after the biggest panic attack, it felt like my mind had just melted or something. I still cant socialize because of all of this.


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## JackDanielß (Nov 28, 2012)

Midnight said:


> Well, it is my first hand experience, so that's all I have to go on. I still doubt whether many people on this website have had real experience of meditation, tbh.
> 
> *I definitely had problems with low self-esteem and anxiety / depressive tendencies beforehand*, but I never experienced depersonalisation BEFORE meditation.


I think this clears enough. 
You focus too much on dissociaton. It's just a little add to the top to known problems.


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

JackDanielß said:


> I think this clears enough.
> You focus too much on dissociaton. It's just a little add to the top to known problems.


No, the only time I focus fully on dissociation is when I'm typing a reply such as now. It's a HUGE add to known problems. How do you deal with something so bizarre that most people can barely describe? It's like, I can't describe what I'm feeling. It's something like a numbness, but with anger and fear underneath it, but it is neither of those emotions. There's not even a word in the English language to describe some of the symptoms.

My other issues feel like nothing compared to this.



Fearless said:


> Meditation is known to increase emotional awareness. You slow down your thought processes, so what's repressed, can come to the surface.
> 
> You are using this meditation-causes-DP theory as an excuse, so you have a reason to not face your fears. That's what I think.
> 
> " I still cant socialize because of all of this. " You are using the wrong words. It's not you can't, but you don't dare. It's not the same.


I face my fears every day. I have a fear of socializing but I am forced to do it every single day. I also experience bizarre social paralysis in massive groups of people, but I still do it every day when I get on the tube in London and go to work or college. Do these things not count?


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> But you know, noone can take the idea from you, that depersonalization is caused by meditation. It's your right to believe this. You don't have to change this opinion.


Fearless, I don't think you made your point clearly in the quote above.

Meditation does not cause DP/DR, but it is one of many things that can trigger DP/DR in many people, I know this for sure.

JJ


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> How do you deal with something so bizarre that most people can barely describe? It's like, I can't describe what I'm feeling. It's something like a numbness, but with anger and fear underneath it, but it is neither of those emotions. There's not even a word in the English language to describe some of the symptoms.
> 
> My other issues feel like nothing compared to this.


This is pretty standard for DP/DR sufferers to feel like this. One of the keys to recovery though is to start focusing on other things ...this can be pretty challenging at first.



> I face my fears every day. I have a fear of socializing but I am forced to do it every single day. I also experience bizarre social paralysis in massive groups of people, but I still do it every day when I get on the tube in London and go to work or college. Do these things not count?


This counts huge, you are doing a lot of positive things.

JJ


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> I never wrote that meditation or weed can't trigger DP.


Yes I know, I just highlighted it because your quote would not have been clear to a number of people reading.



> it'd be good if everybody would understand the difference between a TRIGGER and a CAUSE.


Yes this would be good, it would be better still if people took their focus away from either and focused on recovery.


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

hahah


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## Haumea (Jul 11, 2009)

> I have a fear of socializing but I am forced to do it every single day.


I betcha 50 GBP you partake in some sort of avoidant behavior while being "forced" to socialize.

Because you said it yourself: "forced." You're probably doing the bare minimum to manage the fear that people around you will think you're bonkers.

But you don't enjoy it. And you don't enjoy it not because of DP but because of all the underlying issues that are unresolved. DP is just a complex distraction.

And this is why I don't take kindly to the "DP: it just happens" theory. 'Cause it's burying your head in the sand.


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Haumea said:


> I betcha 50 GBP you partake in some sort of avoidant behavior while being "forced" to socialize.
> 
> Because you said it yourself: "forced." You're probably doing the bare minimum to manage the fear that people around you will think you're bonkers.
> 
> ...


You would win 50 quid. I don't know what the underlying issues are, that's the problem, I can't remember, my early life seems like a total blur now.... so it's pretty hard to tell what caused me to have these issues.


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> You would win 50 quid. I don't know what the underlying issues are, that's the problem, I can't remember, my early life seems like a total blur now.... so it's pretty hard to tell what caused me to have these issues.


@ Midnight, no point in thinking to deeply about this stuff, it will cause more harm than good in most cases.

You tried meditation, it triggered DP/DR, thinking about how you got it isn't really going to help, what you do now is what will help. Most people have to work at recovery not wait to wake up one day and it will be magically be gone (although some lucky ones do just get better over time).

Not everybody who gets DP/DR has past trauma issues either, deal with the issues you have now....act don't dwell on them.

You can get better.

JJ


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Fearless said:


> the fact that you didn't even respond to my post which explained this, tells a lot about you.


Nah I actually read your post and thought it was very interesting, but I was busy at the time so didn't have time to write a lengthier reply so just chose Haumeas instead.....


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## Mousie (Nov 1, 2012)

JJ70 said:


> As I said, one of the most common causes and well documented. Just because you mediate doesn't mean you will get DP/DR but it's a fairly common trigger for sufferers, many go instantly into Chronic DP/DR without any anxiety or panic. Still on the upside most I have spoken to have recovered.


When you say well documented, can you please point me to some sources or posts? My husband's DP was caused by meditation and he struggles with the idea that because his onset was spiritual in nature, that his case is very unique and that he needs to keep searching for some kind of spiritual teacher of healer. He also feels at times that what he has may not be DP at all and that leads to much panic and fear. If I could find some literature linking DP and meditation or even better a success story from someone who had DP from meditation and is now recovered, I know that it would help him immensely. All of my research has come up dry on this topic.
Many thanks in advance )


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

@Mousie probably best to PM me on this one.



> that because his onset was spiritual in nature, that his case is very unique and that he needs to keep searching for some kind of spiritual teacher of healer


Nope he's not unique. I've been fully recovered for decades and meditation was what triggered my DP/DR. He can get better and its very very unlikely a spiritual healer will do this.


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

@ Fearless you speak some of the most sense on this forum. Try to remember though a lot of people of different ages and backgrounds and levels of knowledge on the subject come on here. A lot of people will post on here who have had the condition for years not even known the name of the condition or that anyone else has had it because they have never come across it before.

Although what you say above is probably true; this woman has come on here knowing very little and just needs to help her husband......who is suffering from an awful condition (you have experience of this....be gentle).

You know as well as I do that meditation does not cause DP/DR, but you also know as well as I do it can trigger it.

Sometimes your "tough love" is needed, but sometimes also think about those who are only trying to find out about this awful condition for the first time (and the condition is not well known). Mousie has more than likely been looking all over the internet to try and help her husband and has probably even struggled to find a name for the condition never mind the documents she is looking for (we both know these documents won't help her husband get better but at least he'll know he's not alone and at least give him the chance of finding the right way to recover.)

No disrespect intended, like I say you speak some of the most sense on here. I'm just asking for a little thought.

JJ


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Fearless said:


> yes and no. yes, because it shows willingness to do something and courage. but Midnight. you're facing symptoms. fear of socializing.... come on.
> 
> I guess when you get into a room where there are 6 people talking, laughing, having a conversation, etc.. you start to experience tension and panic-like feelings. but you consciously decide to still go there. it's cool. you also get on the tube. it's cool.
> 
> ...


Yes, clearly social anxiety is not a root cause, but *I don't know what the root cause is *and that's the whole point. Before I experienced the panic attack I felt like I had an identity, and now I don't feel like I have anything, but I don't know why. My entire world flipped upside down in a single week.

Now, on the one hand you say that emotional abuse is the root of the problem, and I have watched Harrington's program and found that some of what he said applied to me, I.e. certain personality traits, so it seems plausible, but on the other hand, I just can't remember a great deal of emotional abuse from my childhood.

I read your blog and what you wrote about your Father etc, and I can see why having experiences like that may have affected you, but then I look at my own Father and I just can't see it, because he never did anything like that to me...I know you say it can be very subtle.. but I just don't see it, though I am looking for it.

I spoke to my parents recently about the way I've disliked myself since my late teens, my self-loathing & low self-esteem etc. My dad said 'you've got no reason to hate yourself, you have everything going for you in life, you are handsome, good at communicating, funny and intelligent'. When I asked them about my early life they told me that there was no lack of love and that they have always cared about me more than anything else and that all they want is for me to be happy.

Do these sound like the words of emotionally abusive parents?

Nah.

But I guess you will tell me that it doesn't matter what they say, they must have abused me somehow, or you will say that I didn't even read what you wrote properly or something. It is like talking to a brick wall with you for some reason, perhaps it is a nationality thing. No offense.


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Fearless said:


> Haha, go to a prison, and ask inmates whether they are guilty or not. You will find out that 95% of convicted felons are innoccent victims of the evil authorities.
> 
> Of course it doesn't matter what they say. What do you think, what is my father's own opinion about himself as a father? That he is perfect. When he divorced with my mother, it was my mother's fault, when his second bride left him, it was her fault, when the third did, it was her, when he kicked me out of his house, that was MY fault, when my grandmother tells him that she is soo depressed because of his alcoholism, then it is my grandmother who is at fault.
> 
> ...


I'm not talking about your Father though am I? That sounds like a lot of shit to go through, my Mum & dad have stuck together and admit they are not perfect. I never got kicked out of my house.. I had an alcoholic Uncle which was a sad story but he was never a big part of my life.

Fearless, what about your writing do I not 'get'? Please be honest.


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Well, let me ask you, do you think shyness and low self-esteem always comes from the parents?


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## Haumea (Jul 11, 2009)

Midnight,

You have to understand that Harris Harrington's (via Daphne Simeon et al.) definition of emotional abuse is veeeeeery broad.

Neglect = emotional abuse, undermining the child's confidence by always doing things for him = emotional abuse, even parental conflict in front of the child = emotional abuse.

I know e.g. that my story isn't anywhere near as gruesome as fearless's, but there was definitely neglect at an early age. We lived in the former Soviet Union and my parents would leave me alone at age 5 to go wait in line for produce. Now, did I care at the time? Did I raise a fuss? Nope. I just played with children's records till they came home.

However it ingrained escapism as a mode of being. In addition, my parents used to fight in front of me, and I would similarly zone out into fantasyland as an escape.

Are these the things you think of when emotional abuse comes to mind? If not, then reconsider, because it can be extremely subtle and doesn't always involve calling the child a piece of shit, or something.


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## fraginfo (Feb 7, 2013)

Hello, I practise mindfulness which is a form of meditation, I totally assert that it helps me a lot with my dr. It helps me accepting the world as it is and also my emotions which are the source of my derealization.

Fraginfo


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> Hello, I practise mindfulness which is a form of meditation, I totally assert that it helps me a lot with my dr. It helps me accepting the world as it is and also my emotions which are the source of my derealization.
> 
> Fraginfo


Fraginfo, I'm am pretty sure meditation is beneficial for many many people. However the fact remains that meditation is a common trigger for DP/DR in many people.


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## fraginfo (Feb 7, 2013)

I practise mindfulness and it helps me a lot with acceptance. I feel better now although still in derealization. it helps me keep my thoughts on the present.

bye

Fraginfo


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## fraginfo (Feb 7, 2013)

Sorry, I didn't find my message again, so I typed it a second time


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Fearless said:


> So to me, Midnight, what you say, that you're intelligent, handsome, have good skills, having a great family, great life, BUT having one of the most terrible emotional disorders, typically sounds like a person in denial. Doesn't fit.


There is a lot of replies so il just pick this one, thanks.

I personally don't say those things, but that's what my parents say *they* see. I have always had a low opinion on myself, (I don't think I'm handsome for example) but despite this I've had an interesting life and travelled the world practically by myself for 6 months, *so I've always had confidence in certain things*, but never *SELF*-confidence, if that makes sense.

Strangely, when they talk about me being a success in life, it makes me very uncomfortable, I don't like talking about myself in a positive way. Not sure why.

My family life is certainly not perfect, my Mother used to describe my Father as being like stone when they went through a rough patch in their marriage because he was working in the City (Financial district) in London and was making alot of money for the first time in his life. They were distant at the time.

My Mum had similar issues to me in her life, she described feeling like her voice wasn't her own when she was a teenager at about 17/18 years old. She said she only began to feel happy when she got her first job and moved to Paris.

You have to understand Fearless that I have never had to even consider the term 'emotional abuse' before in my life. I'd never even thought about it until you spoke about it, so I'm still coming round to the idea


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

IM MALE ffs ha


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

btw saying my parents might not love each other is over stepping the mark and out of order, cos even you will admit you don't know anything about them.

My Dad would be able to cope without my Mother, he wouldn't become an alcoholic, I'm positive of that. He's strong and resourceful. I don't really want to think about it to be honest, what a twisted thought.

They are very loving towards one another... they always were until a few years ago when he wasn't emotionally available. But they are NOT alcoholic... there is no history of alcoholism in my family.

I think this is about ME, not my parents...


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## JackDanielß (Nov 28, 2012)

> I don't really want to think about it to be honest, what a twisted thought.

Doesn't that tell you enough? I mean, if you were confident about your parents not being codependent, it wouldn't bother you because you'd be sure, wouldn't you?

Just saying...


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Fearless said:


> One more thing. It is not like, you are a confident, emotionally grown up and mentally healthy individual, you try meditation, and you end up in DP. It just doesn't work like that. You can't just fuck yourself up by meditating. What is meditation basically? Closing your eyes and focus on your breath? you really think that's so dangerous?
> 
> In the far east, millions of monks are meditating the living shit out of themselves, and they are fucking stable and peaceful individuals. You think you went "deeper" than them?


*No no no!!! *

*FFS this is what I've tried to explain to people.*

*Focusing on your breath isn't real meditation. That's just what self-help teachers push as a way to relax yourself. *

It is like talking to a brick wall with you people sometimes. Honestly, none of you have a fucking clue about what meditation is yet you are so quick to defend it, it's completely moronic.

*If you go into DEEP meditation, you lose a sense of the world and your body and mind entirely. It's called Samadhi. Look it up. While it can be incredibly blissful, it also what most people would call complete depersonalisation, in a nutshell. *

*None of you have a single fucking clue about meditation besides the 'feel good' aspect of it which is peddled by the media. *

I swear because it's so frustrating trying to communicate this point to you people


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2013)

I've been meditating for 20+ years. Don't tell me about meditating, fool.

I was meditating when you were sucking on your mama's teet.


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## JackDanielß (Nov 28, 2012)

Forget the fucking meditation Midnight, you were into spirituality because you had your own problems already before meditation.


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## Haumea (Jul 11, 2009)

Midnight,

I think you said you've seen Harrington's program?

There's a video on Family Systems that you'd be well-advised to watch again. It's not always about alcoholism per se. There are patterns which mimic alcoholism (such as workaholism, e.g.) or other dysfunctional patterns which can predispose the child to DP.

The point of all this is not to "blame" your parents. Shit happens. Your parents are human, and it takes an extraordinary amount of wisdom (or luck) in life not to screw up your child in some way. Sometimes the child is quite different personality-wise from the parents and experiences disappoinment in them and shares blame for their inadequacies, which contributes to lowered self-esteem.

The point of all this is to shine a light on the psychological processes which are holding you back.


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Fearless said:


> it's easier to believe that you're the victim of some spiritual mumbo jumbo than to face your real life fears.
> 
> I was in the same boat.


Spiritual 'mumbo jumbo'?

Fearless, I appreciate the advice but self-inquiry is not 'spiritual mumbo jumbo'.. please.. you may know alot about emotional abuse and how it affects people, but you have absolutely no knowledge of inquiry, like most on this forum.

Though I am not denying that I had problems before hand, i had panic attacks on weed previously, though they were terrible I still didn't become depersonalized after them, ive always also been very shy and introverted but that became even more so when I was a teen.


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Susto -

My teacher is enlightened, and you don't meditate on purpose in order to feel detached, it happens by itself whether you want it to or not.

The shit I experienced through meditation was as real as anyone elses experience, be it negative or positive and I'm fucked up now, I only became fucked up in *this way*

*AFTER it, NOT BEFORE it. *

*BUT*

I am willing to try and understand what you are all saying, and I'll stop talking about it, though you should atleast admit that none of you have any idea about what I experienced because you said yourself that you don't understand it.


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

I actually spoke to him via Skype and he told me what had happened to me was rare, but things do 'come up' due to meditation, so it is the meditation which causes the DP/DR to appear, whether any of you believe it or not. The meditation is the mechanism by which the dream like state arises. 100%. But having said that, the things that 'come up' are probably what you are speaking of, i.e. repressed fears.

Fearless, I still don't understand why you are being so sensitive. One minute you are leaving the forum, then within a few days you are back again like you never even said it, then one minute your offering advice but as soon as someone challenges you you tell them to enjoy their suffering...??? What gives?


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> so it is the meditation which causes the DP/DR


Don't know how many times I have to say this but meditation can trigger DP/DR. However recovering usually has very little to do with what caused it.

@Midnight, for your own sake, just concentrate on recovery.

All the best.

JJ


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

JJ70 said:


> Don't know how many times I have to say this but meditation can trigger DP/DR. However recovering usually has very little to do with what caused it.
> 
> @Midnight, for your own sake, just concentrate on recovery.
> 
> ...


Ok, I will drop it in this thread, cheers


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Wouldnt say i had serious pain to be honest... it was more pain about life circumstances like not getting laid and being at the wrong university at the time. I was never properly depressed, I've just always been glass half-empty about everything.

Only now after DP do I know what REAL suffering is. But whatever


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## JackDanielß (Nov 28, 2012)

Basically what you say, is that you somehow went deeper than those REAL monks in Tibet?


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> Basically what you say, is that you somehow went deeper than those REAL monks in Tibet?


@Jack, it doesn't matter; I've spoken to so many people who have DP/DR triggered my meditation I've lost count. I can even send you professional medical and academic info on it if you wish.

The point is meditation is one of many triggers for DP/DR and getting better doesn't usually involve focusing on what triggered DP/DR but recovering from it.

JJ


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> Jack means that if meditation is the cause (not trigger, CAUSE) of DP, why those monks in Tibet aren't here on DPSELFHELP? I think they have internet


Well I think its time to drop this one now, I think it has to be obvious to everyone that:

a) If meditation, smoking weed etc. causes DP/DR then everyone who has meditated or smoked weed would have DP/DR

b) Too many people have reportedly had their state of DP/DR triggered by meditating, smoking weed etc. for this to be doubted.

JJ


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## hennessy (Apr 2, 2008)

Meditation and weed don't cause dp/dr DIRECTLY. It's caused by the fear and anxiety which these both can cause because they take out what's inside you, you can reach to your subconscious when meditating. So meditation is the cure for the ones who want to face their problems, not for the ones who are escaping them.


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> Meditation and weed don't cause dp/dr DIRECTLY. It's caused by the fear and anxiety which these both can cause because they take out what's inside you, you can reach to your subconscious when meditating. So meditation is the cure for the ones who want to face their problems, not for the ones who are escaping them.


Hennessy, I've talked to too many people who's anxiety came after DP/DR was triggered for this to be fully true, I also spoke to a fair number of people who developed chronic DP/DR (no anxiety prior or after).

There seems to be little doubt that anxiety can trigger DP/DR, there is also overwhelming evidence that DP/DR can be triggered by many many things not just anxiety.


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

hennessy said:


> Meditation and weed don't cause dp/dr DIRECTLY. It's caused by the fear and anxiety which these both can cause because they take out what's inside you, you can reach to your subconscious when meditating. So meditation is the cure for the ones who want to face their problems, not for the ones who are escaping them.


have you ever actually meditated properly or are you just pulling this out of nowhere though?


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

In my experience focusing on the cause is not generally helpful for recovery anyway.


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## hennessy (Apr 2, 2008)

Yes, I actually have meditated before. I was also taking NLP lessons which I was getting in different states of mind when practicing. Obviously you did something wrong or had some serious problems in your subconscious or else I can not see anyone who is having a panic attack while they are meditating, they are completely opposite. Why were you meditating in the first place if you did not know what it was? Clearly your meditation definition was different from what it actually is and you got shocked when you saw where it can lead you.

MOST of the dr/dp cases are caused by anxiety btw.

Weed -> anxiety/panic attack -> dp/dr

Trauma -> anxiety/panic attack -> dp/dr

Please keep in mind that I did not say ALL cases of dp/dr are caused by anxiety.

It's a defence mechanism and you try to rationalise it in so many negative ways that at the end of the day you just get stuck in a worse state than you could be if you left it all alone in the first place. Stop overanalysing. Do your research. Look at the posts that actually makes sense and that are actually positive. And go live your life.

Recovery is COMMON.


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> Weed -> anxiety/panic attack -> dp/dr


In at least of 50% of cases I have talked to it went Weed >DP/DR>panic attack.......DP/DR flicking in can scare the shit out of you. In most cases when people recovering have minor relapses it is very common to feel DP/DR then panic because it scares the shit out of you to think your going to go back there.

If DR/DR is a defence mechanism (quite possible), its one where the brain fucks up, DP/DR is quite different from shock which is commonly regarded as a defence mechanism.

I've spoken to many people who have developed DP/DR from no panic or anxiety and with no identifiable trigger at all.

Many, many things can trigger DP/DR.



> Recovery is COMMON.


 In my experience this is true, it also seems to be reflected in medical research. It's usually quicker and easier when you start to focus on recovery and not your DP/DR....just my experience, you can take or leave.


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## hennessy (Apr 2, 2008)

Of course. I know it. That's what made me mostly cured. Focusing on real life and "real" problems without any questioning of reality. I know it sounds difficult but it's definetely possible. I just came here to be helpful, I have a bad flu and I'm staying home for 2 days.


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## branl (May 21, 2010)

I dont meditate, but I do try mindfulness. I dont know if there the same?

Being in the moment

I practice laying down and listen to noises around me, every single noise I focus with quick attention from cars, to clocks anything.

then the other type of mindfulness is conentrating on my breathing.

these are the ones I practice.


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> Focusing on real life and "real" problems without any questioning of reality. I know it sounds difficult but it's definetely possible.


A simplification, but this is pretty much how I recovered and most others I know of (some people actually do seem to just get better as a natural recovery), took a while and I had to work at it.


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## peanut butter (Nov 9, 2012)

Which differs from spirituality how?


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## Will_95 (Aug 23, 2013)

I know different people have different opinions, but which meditation would you consider the best for a sense of well-being and reduced anxiety?

I went to this sort of meeting to discuss transcendental meditation as i'm a fan of David Lynch, but the woman teaching it really freaked me out, and it seemed a bit culty


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## Ruhtra (Aug 14, 2013)

> 4) a depersonalized state can become an apparently permanent mode of functioning


Oh dear.


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

For the love of god dont do transcendental 
Meditation. Deep meditation will fuck you over. Noone on this forum wants to hear it though


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## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

Midnight said:


> For the love of god dont do transcendental
> Meditation. Deep meditation will fuck you over. Noone on this forum wants to hear it though


What the fuck is transcendental meditation lol I've heard it but how does it differ from normal meditation ?


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## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

Fearless said:


> I started to play basketball before I got DP, maybe it's basketball which is the problem.


Lol


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

You know, I could go on and on about meditation for hours, probably days even, especially the harm it causes, but don't take my word for it. If you are interested, read Suzanne Segal's book 'Collision with the Infinite' and some of her first hand experiences of living at meditation retreats and seeing people lose the plot after sitting for hours and hours and hours in deep contemplation.


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## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

Midnight said:


> You know, I could go on and on about meditation for hours, probably days even, especially the harm it causes, but don't take my word for it. If you are interested, read Suzanne Segal's book 'Collision with the Infinite' and some of her first hand experiences of living at meditation retreats and seeing people lose the plot after sitting for hours and hours and hours in deep contemplation.


I can totally see how they would....anyone who meditates for that long is bound to go insane lol


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

At the end of the day, I can only speak from personal experience. I never found meditation to help me much anyway. It never touched the core emotional issues I had and my own self-doubt, etc.

The only difference it made was that it made me more detached from everything internally. If you want that, so be it, but don't say you haven't been warned if you are reading this and want to meditate deeply. Do your homework.


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Susto said:


> I have contacted some members here who recovered from DP through meditation, violetgirl is one of them, check her feedback on how mindfullness helped her heal from trauma and the DP/DR/OCD related to it.
> 
> I find intriguing how you guys make so much assumptions of how deep meditation will lead to psychosis and other terrible stuff if you dont have any real experience with it. For my part the times when I was abble to go a little deeper than normal it was insightful experiences with positive outcomes. I do fear uncovering the veils of my perception, but will not let it hold me back. IMO this negative imagined picture that you built around meditation is keeping you from great discoveries and a much better life


Thats just an unfounded opinion. I have plenty of personal experience, rooted in reality. I used to be Big into spirituality. You know this..


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Susto said:


> I feel you.. its a hollow place down here.. just dont give it up, defeated.. standing as if your lost.. waiting for the end.. dont give up mate.. reality is an illusion, look to that which is looking.. you been told the path.. you been living in the lip of insanity, wanting to know reasons.. you knock in a door, the door opens.. you been knocking from the inside


I like that Rumi quote.

Atm, I feel like DP/DR is something to be handled seperately to everything else, especially spirituality. I think DP/DR is there to teach us something.

It's made me look inside myself alot, notice patterns and behaviours and strengths and weaknesses, so for the moment I'm leaving meditation aside and taking a look at the issues that I was trying to use meditation as a crutch against.

I appreciate your support mate.


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