# I asked my girlfriend to marry me!



## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

And do you know what, I'm not sure if I meant it. And she said yes.

This is the same old story with me. Don't get me wrong - my current girlfriend is, without exception (and I mean this) the most caring, generous, stable, kind women I have ever met. The sex is good, everything is good. And, when I think about her, I couldn't ask for anything more. She's highly intelligent, witty....but....I dunno. I don't know why I asked her. Really, I don't.

Actuallly, do know what, I think I do know. Because she has been so perfect, despite me thinking this with my last marriage, I actually think she is.

I think I am an emotional vacuum. And as a consequence, I enjoy the drama of provoking it. I recognise this. Should I go through with it? I do love her, as much as I can love anyone. And I don't want to use her as an sounding board for my reckless need for emotional turmoil. Or do I? Am I a bad man?

There are two things I am certain of in life. My mother's love for me, and the extraordinary fact that women fall in love with me. That's not being being headed, but it just happens. Perhaps it happens because I evoke and, indeed, need such intensity from a relationship, that they and myself get caught in the maelstrom.

S**t. At least life isn't boring. But it's not fair on them, I know this. I guess it all stems from my rooted idea of romantic tragedy. It's like my fiction. It seems I am unintentionally creating emotional drama for my own selfish needs.

For christ's sake, she doesn't even know I have leukemia!


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> For christ's sake, she doesn't even know I have leukemia


Thats messed up Martinelv.

All I can say is that if a girl told me about something that serious after we were already talking about getting married then I would get very upset.

You should tell her before your relationship gets more serious.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> Thats messed up Martinelv.


Yes, yes it is.

At least I know when I messed up? :wink:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Martinelv said:


> > Thats messed up Martinelv.
> 
> 
> Yes, yes it is.
> ...


LOL.

Dear Martin,
Almost missed this one for the damned conspiracy thread.

At any rate, you know the answer to this. I fear you do thrive on chaos. Though I really don't know you at all.

Bottom line the fact this woman doesn't know you've been seriously ill ... well, one way or another she won't be pleased when she finds out.

I don't need to say a damned thing. You already know everything anyone is going to say to you.

OMG. It sounds so cornball, but the key thing is communication ultimately. Honesty. Agreed upon goals. Good sex (God I miss it). :?

Marriage is "more" than any other relationship, even living together. More expectations ... you know this crap, you've already been married once.

Well, this took me by surprise, lol.

Martin, for the love of God, if you don't look after yourself, think of this wonderful woman you talk about.

Cheers,
D
The cranky old witch. With no apologies. 8)


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## Hopefull (Dec 1, 2006)

Hello martin
Congratulations, I think?
You have to be honest with her, you can not hide something like that from her, when she finds out she will think you don't trust her.
And just imagine if one day she finds you on this site and reads all of your posts.
She will then see that you have told thousands of other people, but not her.

TELL HER!
Bailee


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## Milan (May 29, 2005)

> my current girlfriend is, without exception (and I mean this) the most caring, generous, stable, kind women I have ever met. The sex is good, everything is good. And, when I think about her, I couldn't ask for anything more. She's highly intelligent, witty...


Of course - she's Aussie!! 8)

Seriously Martin, don't fuck with peoples emotions for your own gains....very unfair. It's a pity you're so open and honest with the faceless, anonymous people on this forum and not to her. Respect, honesty and friendship make for a happy, stable relationships. Ask your mum....she will tell you.

Sounds like you've been pretty content these last couple of months with her so be a good bloke and treat her well.

Sincerely, I hope it works out for you two


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

> It's a pity you're so open and honest with the faceless, anonymous people on this forum and not to her. Respect, honesty and friendship make for a happy, stable relationships.


So true! And many of us here are like this. You're usually pretty damn honest with us Martin and we still love you so of course she will too. More so if you're honest with her because she will more deeply know the real you. But I stand by what I've always said that you need to quit playing games with women. Learn to live life and have happiness without all the crazy ups and downs. It's actually quite peaceful when you finally get off the rollercoaster.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Yes, I know, I know. Sorry.

I'll talk to her. Once I've plucked up the courage and learnt how to be a man about things.

Still, I'll keep myself occupied by digging a new space under the patio - next to all my ex-wives.

DISCLAIMER#768764.2897 - I have never killed anyone. I say this because there is a serial killer roaming around these parts of England at the moment.


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## Axel19 (Aug 11, 2004)

Fuk it!! Marry her!!! But learn to become a better person for her first. Make it work this time. This is the best reason you'll ever have to stop being a git.


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## Milan (May 29, 2005)

> I say this because there is a serial killer roaming around these parts of England at the moment.


Heard this on the news last night. Scary shit!! I actually thought of you, Martin, when the report came on......not 'cause I think you're the serial killer, (well I hope not) but 'cause you're from that area.



> This is the best reason you'll ever have to stop being a git.


 :lol:

....and that's whay the poms and aussies get along so well - straight to the point!!


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## Epiphany (Apr 28, 2006)

> ....and that's whay the poms and aussies get along so well - straight to the point!!


I'll second that!!!

Lovely Axel...tell us how you _really_ feel why not?

Wow Martin...wow!!! What can any of us say to that? Congratulations...we think? Would love to say I'm happy for you but haven't really got the feel yet that you are happy for yourself.

How did you propose? Were you just looking for another sock or was it the whole down-on-bended knee shebang? If she is serious in her acceptance then she should be able to handle you telling her about your illness...after all it's in sickness and health isn't it?

Why have you not told her about your leukaemia by the way? What stopped you? Have you told her about the dp and your countless scans and checks for all your mental health stuff? There is more stigma associated with a mental illness than a physiological one so I don't quite understand. You certainly need to tell her before much longer though...I can't quite relate to your reluctance...just sit her down and spill it all, right down to the reason you didn't want to tell her. You'll feel so much better and I would bet she won't react half as negatively as you are assuming she will...give her the benefit of the doubt.

Let us know if you are going ahead with it all so we can congratulate you with more confidence.

Take care...


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Oh I don't know. I don't understand my psychopathology at all. I've asked, at the latest count, five women to marry me. And I only really, I think (I really don't know!) meant it once - to my ex-wife. Why do they always say 'yes'? I'm not an Alpha-male, I'm unpredictable, moody...

You know what, it's almost as if I am doing a bit of ego chest thumping. Yes, that's what it is. Perhaps I don't think I'm worthy (which of course, I do - at least on the surface), or some other self-pitying s**t like that. Or perhaps I am just a wicked ba****d. But I don't prescribe to that either. I'm concieted enough to know that I'm kind and caring to women, except for when I play my mind games. I just don't think of the consequences. Actually I do. Hmm. Don't get me wrong - I'm fully aware of the magnitude of asking someone to marry you, and even though this girl is really quite lovely, kind, caring, everything I wanted....well, perhaps for a start I don't want to get married (I'm not sure about that either), and whether I love her. And if I don't, does that matter?

Anyway, I'm up to my neck in the s**t already. She's told her parents and friends and the happy news has gone around the world three hundred times. Oh dear christ.

You know - perhaps I will tell her that I have Leukemia and Psychological disturbances. My evil sides hopes that she will run off screaming but, as is the nature of loving, kind women, I doubt it.

I am bad.


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## Crystal (Dec 13, 2006)

No, you are not bad person, you say it as a joke, but I think you really believe it. I can feel that, and yes I have read a few of your posts, Sure that hardly qualifies as knowing you, but I just get the feeling you are a good soul, you continually question that don't you.
what is it about love that worries you so.
You have so much to offer, amazing insight.
we all have flaws, they don't make us any less lovable, they make us more human.
I know, you are probably throwing your head back laughing, but let me end this post with a quote by Gandhi, and I am sorry if I seem to pointed.

" A coward is incapable of exhibiting love; its is the prerogative of the brave."

Open your heart to your lovely lady, she will love you all the more for it.

crystal xxx


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

That's very kind of you.

Thing is, and I guess everyone has this puzzle, I don't know (watch as I burp out a cliche) what love is. I think I did, with my ex-wife, but apparently not. Sure, I get butterflies when I meet someone new, but the effect quickly fades, and even if they are the most wonderful person, I get bored very, very quickly. Which is when I start to do stupid things, perhaps, to liven it up - like asking them to marry me. At least that's safer than snooting up half a ton of Bolivian marching power and....well, other things I used to do.

Insight is a funny thing. I occassionally have insight into other people's problems, but not my own. I guess that's the way of things. Even though I don't know (although I think the major suspect is boredom) why I do things I might regret, I realise the consequences of them - or rather, I recognise them but don't, at the point of inception, give a damn.

I know who I am. I can be incredibly kind and spectacually cruel, in equal measure. They fight for control over each other, continually, there is no respite (which is perhaps why I am prone to recklessness and anxiety - with all that turmoil churning away in my grey mush), no peace, and unless I am totally occupied - or perhaps, enraptured is the better word, by something or someone, then boredom sets in and my cruelty boils to the surface. It's utterly childish, petty, unfair, and I recognise this. But what to do? What to do. Perhaps I enjoy being a man of raging contradictions. Yes, I think that has something to do with it. I mean, who wants to be 'normal' (mental illness excluded, of course). But I think I need to be savagely different...not just someone who jumps on board a particular sub-culture or whatever.

Sigh. Oh well. We'll see.


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## Crystal (Dec 13, 2006)

Hello Martin

If I may, Do not try and solve the puzzle, give yourself over to it, and see where it leads you, we need a little mystery in our lives or they will become boring.
You mentioned that you get bored very easily, can I turn that over and ask you what excites you in the beginning, what is it that changes, or should I ask, who is it that changes?
You say you start to do stupid things and can be quite cruel.
I will surmise that you are testing her level of commitment/love toward you, before you totally give yourself over to her.
you fight for control over your emotions, yes, control is very comfortable and love can be very unpredictable, but you are going to have to move out of your comfort zone and embrace the mystery. 
I feel your idea of love is something that is going to cost you dearly, I don't mean in a monetary sense, but emotionally, you reflect that in your signature, sure its a gag, but something made you choose it.

Crystal xx


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'giving myself' to the mystery. Do you mean the mystery of love? In that case, I'm afraid it's no mystery to me. It's quite simple, well, my idea of love anyway. It's is a deep feeling of attachment that you cannot elucidate or put into words, bone warming sentimentality, complete trust...etc. I have these feelings, but as I've said - they are fleeting. I am always looking for _more_, so to speak. No the religiously inclined deem that this is because of a supposed spiritual void, because I am an atheist, but I dismiss that with the, well, I won't say contempt, but I dismiss it anyway.

As for figuring out my psychopathology - well, I don't think I can explain it any further than I have before. But you're right, I don't give a damn. I haven't got time. And in the end, so questions just don't have answers. Or at least, happy answers.

I'm not afraid of love, no more than the next man or woman. As far as I know, I've never been cheated on, never been dumped, so I have no experience of the crushing sense of betrayal that it brings - or so I've heard.


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## Crystal (Dec 13, 2006)

Well martin, we all want to know, are you going to marry her?

Crystal


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## Hopefull (Dec 1, 2006)

Are you saying that you don't love her anymore?

You haven't told her yet have you.

I am going to give you some of Crystals advise and say, " You will get many different opinions from people, but only you know how you are feeling, so just go with your gut instinct.

Bailee


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

Is this the same girlfriend you asked to marry you as a "joke" a while back? Because I was assuming it is, but I read your post again and was thinking maybe it's a different one.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Martinelv said:


> And do you know what, I'm not sure if I meant it. (


Just like I have hoped that people close to me don't come to this website and see me raving about them not doing the washing up or what have you...or my sexual fantasies and awful poetry...I hope your girlfriend doesn't read this.

My thoughts are:

The person you marry shouldn't qualify by being "perfect" that overlooks the whole point of marriage. The point is to love and accept someone as they are, and recognise their vulnerabilities and imperfections...IMHO

I'm surprised you haven't told her about your Leukemia, even if it's not going to strike you down next week, your not telling her seems funny to me. Like, this evening I have been chuntering on to a friend of mine who approached me a couple of weeks ago (in a way I didn't want him to approach me!) because he didn't tell me he had a kid back home. I've been trying to explain to him that being economical with the truth is as good as lying in some circumstances.

Men! Maybe you think differently.


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## Pollyanna 3098 (Dec 12, 2006)

AH, Yes perfection, its one of the biggest illusions of humanity, some of us have let that illusion go, but others seem to spend the whole lifetime chasing the illusive beast.

My opinion is just a generalization, its not aimed at anyone.

Cheers 3098


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> Is this the same girlfriend you asked to marry you as a "joke" a while back?


Yes it is. :? The australian one. I 'joked' again yesterday that I didn't want to marry her anymore because we had just lost the ashes. I said it dead-pan, to see how she would react. She laughed.

You know what, I do love her - as much as I can love anyone. It's true, it's pointless looking for the 'perfect' one, especially if you're someone like me who finds fault in everyone. But she's gorgeous. She hasn't got a nasty bone in her body. She is a gentle spirit, and I need that. I liken her to a warm current in ice-cold river. And I told her that yesterday. Which went down rather well. And she 'needs' me.....for what, I don't know and can't fathom. I know I'm a monster in the sack, but that can't be my only asset. 8) Can it? I think I'm a bit scared because, although we've had a fantastic time since we met, whenever I've 'got serious' with a women - and that includes living with them, I start to get itchy feet and do something stupid, and I lose them. I just need to grow up I think. Bit late at 35.

The 'thinking' regarding why I don't tell her about my leukemia is...well, cowardice probably. But it won't really make any difference to our lives together. I don't even think about it, and when I do, I just regard it as something like a cold that I'll never get rid of. But we'll see. She is off home to Oz for Christmas today, so I'll have time to think about it. Get my 'story' straight. Sigh.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Martinelv said:


> She is off home to Oz for Christmas today, so I'll have time to think about it. Get my 'story' straight. Sigh.


That's the problem with lying.

Anyway, Martin, I have to admit something. This story has totally made me realise why I have underlyingly disliked you: you act out life.

Now I have been thinking about this, and doing some practical assignments too on the subject, and I have come to the conclusion that this probably means you are a basically happy person. For if you cannot act, if you are always boring and honest, then where is the fun in that? Somewhere hidden in acting is a truthfullness, something unconditional that doesn't care for the facts. You love her, she loves you, say you don't want to ruin it with droning on about your leukaemia but would rather have fun -------surely that is a good thing?

As it happens, you may be amused to know my ex first chatted me up by droning on about his having lymphoma. It was love at first sight up until he opened his mouth.

Maybe you could brouch the subject by joking about leukaemia...you never know, she might land some jestful facts about her life on you too. As long as you are happy to get as good as you give, I don't see the problem.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

You dislike me? Well then, you'll be pleased to know that you have been taken off the list. The hareem list. Actually, thinking about it, and seeing as you like to put all considerations into practise, I might keep you on the list - just out of spite. 



> you are a basically happy person


Ha. This made me laugh. At my core, yes - I am a happy chappy. But over the years I have become deeply unhappy, deeply anxious, deeply..well, disturbed. Smothering my happy core is a terrible moat of anger. Anger at what, I don't know, but I could nake some educated guesses. This is what makes me a bad man.

But you know, you are right. I do 'act out life'. Life is a game to me. Or rather, because I know my time is limited, I do whatever I can to supress my rage and squeeze out as much happyness of my life. Whether you believe it or not, I am not naturally cruel, and I never deliberatly hurt anyone. I just don't think of the consequences of my actions. And of course that needs to change. Whether it will or not, I don't know.



> Maybe you could brouch the subject by joking about leukaemia


At the risk of taking you seriously, how on earth do you joke about leukemia? I'm going to think long and hard about it, because I can usually dream up some joke (usually sarcasm) about most things, but I'm stumped. Perhaps the conversation will go like this:

"Hi Honey, I'm home."
"Hello darling, have a good day."
"Yes thanks. Actually, I had a great laugh."
"Really? What about?"
"Well, I was thinking about people with leukemia, and how funny it is."
"Pardon?"
"Well, you know, their hair falling out, all those painful ulcers, chemotherapy and stuff. Ha ha."
"What? How can you say that? Didn't your friend die of leukemia?"
"Yes, he did. Ha ha. Left behind a wife and a daughter. Ha ha."
"Are you serious?"
"Of course. I'm always serious. I've been laughing so much my stomach hurts."
"Martin, I know you have a dark side, but, really, that's sick."
"Ha ha ha ha. I know. But you've got to look at the funny side of it."
"I, I...I can't see anything funny about it."
"Can't you? Well, this might change your mind. I've got leukemia too!"
"What?"
"LOL. Yeah, isn't that ironic? Oh my giddy aunt."

Na, I'll have to think about it.


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

Martinelv said:


> At the risk of taking you seriously, how on earth do you joke about leukemia? I'm going to think long and hard about it, because I can usually dream up some joke (usually sarcasm) about most things, but I'm stumped. Perhaps the conversation will go like this:
> 
> "Hi Honey, I'm home."
> "Hello darling, have a good day."
> ...


 :lol: :lol: :lol: Oh God, that had me in hysterics! It really did. I think MS just meant for you to make light of it so as to alleviate any kind of confusion she might feel in your revealing this to her at such a late stage in your relationship. I don't think she meant it like it's something to be laughed about. But in any case, that was one humourous little bit of dialogue.

Martin, you sir, are an artist. And what makes you the adorable little scamp you are, is that you are the type of person that revels in the emotional rollercoasters that you yourself help to create. People like you, and me for that matter...people with desperately irrational egos that rove about like wildfire, constantly unsatisfied...bored and debaucherous. People like that can't have it both ways. You either submit yourself to your art...your pleasure...your hedonistic delights and to hell with anyone in your path. Or you reform yourself. Pluck a nice little wife out of the garden, procreate, and secure a dreadfully boring job making reports on Excel spreadsheets. Do you think you can have it both ways? Have you been able to in the past? I think not. I don't presume to know all there is to know about you either, but I can only deduce that since you are like myself in many ways, and since I can envisage the kind of situation you've gotten yourself into right now, I can somewhat objectively hypothesize what will happen if you go on like this.

I mean...you know, i'd love to fall in love too. And I hope that if I did it would be with someone like you describe. A shore that I can dock at when the waters get too rough. But this is idealized. The type of woman that you're in love with probably doesn't just want to be your shore. She wants to sail around the world with you. But do you think she'd allow you to indulge yourself with every change of the wind...when your sails carry you to other ports and...oh to hell with this metaphor! God, they're really only good for a sentence or two, aren't they? I'm sure you know what I mean.

I wish the best for you, Martin. And I hope you can make it work. And it isn't that I doubt that you're capable of juggling both lifestyles. It's just that I doubt that i'd be able to do it. But then, i'm not the one in love. And love can make one do some crazy things. Compromising, for example. Who knows...maybe one matures or something. I re-read Tropic of Cancer a few weeks ago and fell in love with that book in a way I never did before. And this time, I decided to read Anais Nin's pseudo-biography of her relationship with Henry Miller at that time in Paris, right after I'd finished T.O.C. What amazed me most about the differences in these books (besides the fact that there was an almost incalculable discrepancy in the writing talent of the two...Miller weaved poetry while Nin scribbled naughty little school girl missives), was how they were almost inversely correlational with each other. Is that the right phrase? What i mean is, Miller was the hedonistic artist at heart and he tried to mould himself into the rock. Whereas Nin was the rock and tried to mould herself into the artist. This isn't to take anything away from either of them. We are who we are. And while we can all change ourselves to a certain extent, I wonder if we can ever really change our nature. I think we more fully reward ourselves if we embrace our destiny rather than try to create a new one.

As for the leukemia. Just tell her. I really wouldn't think it would be a big deal at all other than possibly score you some sympathy points with her. I mean, it's not like you're revealing to her that you're a serial killer or something. :wink:

s.

p.s. Oh yeah, and congratulations!


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Sebastian, 
I am living out the mudane life vs artistic life dilemma. It's so funny that you should write about that, it is something I struggle with every day. My mind wishes to be released, to fly around remote places in the world in a light aircraft. Instead, I work at a multinational insurance company doing the more basic and repetitive of admin tasks....and I am not particularly efficient at that type of work either. If only I could be a "worker" I'd have the potential to earn a lot. But when I am work, I am intrigued by the content of the notes, always looking for funny things on forms like "Occupation: small child" things that keep me amused and boyant through the uneventful day. I use my 5 minute breaks from the screen to let some more poetry flow out of me. It's usually rubbish, as work isn't the best place to write poetry...I think routine and grey offices knock creativity out of people. I have a laugh, but it is almost weird that a person should be so mentally stimulated and amused in a place like that (I'm getting a bit of a reputation).

The man who has been sitting next to me is like a computer. Clearly intelligent and in a job not proportional to his gifts, I wonder how he can go into that place, day in day out, year after year. But the truth is that though very clever, he just suits the type of work that requires sheer effort and no thought. He is obsessed with efficiency and productivity, would rather go a whole day improving his productivity than share a joke with me. And there I am thinking "it's only Norwich Union, why do you care about this admin?" My friend, J, is the same - very clever but for some reason quite content going into such a predictiable job day in day out...forever and a day...she's cares about being efficient - her productivity is always about 30% better than mine. God, the list goes on. There are so many people who could put their intelligence to better use. Why do they care about NU? Why don't they get computers and machines to do the work instead of human beings. I find it abusive that a person should have to sit at a desk for 7 hours a day looking at a computer screen. The small talk is torturous too!

Give me the manics, the eccentrics, the thinkers, actors, egotists, mis-fits, aristicrats, rebels, special people any day.

I only have 2 weeks left of Norwich Union! Yea. I got through 8 months of monkey tasks and got through it. What have I learned? I can do that work, but it doesn't come naturally. And I don't want to spend my life in an office. And that I can learn to like ordinary people - they must be extraordinary to be able to do such boring jobs.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Hello Sir.

Yes, I can seem to find something to take the piss out of in almost every kind of tragedy. It truely is a talent. If my body wasn't held together by bones, tissue and rage, I'd fall to pieces. I have the emotional integrity of a house stuck together with spit. But still, I can't seem to find a light-hearted way of breaking the fact I have Leukemia to my girlfriend. I'm stumped - and I would be open to suggestions. I understand that she might be 'hurt' by the fact that I have been keeping it from her - but you must also understand that I view my Leukemia with as much angst as I do an ingrowing toenail. It's highly improbable that it will do me any serious damage before my rapidly increasing uptake of ciggies and booze will. That's my view point - but I can imagine the uproar, tears, soul searching, pleading to go through chemo...etc if I did tell her. So what's the point? I don't want to know, and indeed, don't care if she has webbed feet (she hasn't - but if she did, it would be grounds for a pre-marriage-divorce, if there is such a thing. And I wonder, how would that be covered in Marriage Counseling. Anway..) or something that has absolutely no negative effect on our lives together.

Yes my dear Sebastian, it does seem we are the same. Proper 'Adults' usually refer to us as boys in a mans body. There is some truth in that I think. But, true to form, I don't care. In fact, I stick my fingers in my ears and go 'NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NOT LISTENING', when any adult, sensible decisions have to be made. I don't know why I, or we, are like this. I can absolutely relate to what you say however - I feel like I am being torn apart sometimes; my job bores me so much that I want to cry, and I have to consciously (almost every heartbeat) restrain myself from running out of the building and screaming at the absurdity of having to do this for a 'living'. Ha! A living. What is that? I'm not sure anymore. I think it's _existing_, with a little sugar coating on top. But more often than not, my particular cake is peppered with pidgeon sh*t. But apparently that's meant to be good luck. I can't imagine anything more unlucky than to be shat on by some flying vermin.

Yes, life is a brick hard, self-rising cake, tasteless and without any flavour, except for the breathtakingly vapid moments of pleasure. And there moments of 'pleasure' are either moments that are _supposed_ to be pleasurable - like sex, or writing a good paragraph, or whatever, but are just dull little snippets of 'slightly not-sh*t', or booze crazed acts of random conquest, which leave you deflated, poor, guilt ridden and possibly diseased. And even these moments, my last bastian of hope, these very last glimmers of pleasure - seem to be fading. What next? I don't know. If I wasn't such a coward, I'd start taking heroin or something. Ego you say? Perhaps so. I often think I actually deserve some weird existential, er, transendental pleaure that other mortals to not experience. There is absolutely no qualifcation for this whatsoever. I am extraordinarily ordinary, and perhaps that's the problem. I hate being ordinary. I despise, sneer and mock the silly trivialities that send 'other' people into rapture. I feel like a child that has seen and done too much, too soon, and wants more, more, MORE, MORE. I catch myself thinking, at certain times where I should be weeping with joy - such as standing on a sandstone balcony overlooking the Egyptian desert at sunset, glancing around to see my ex-wife lying naked in the half-light of dusk, and thinking - 'Crap. It's all crap.' What kind of mindset is that? If there is a god and I did manage to sneak into heaven and eternal bliss, I'm sure I'd get bored of that before the big-man had even managed to say 'Welcome sinner.' You're right - it's the turmoil, the tornado, the tempest of uncertainty that is the only thing that gets my blood pumping. What a way to live, eh? Sometimes, in bollock-crushingly boring moments, I deliberately stop taking my Klonopin so I can put myself through the torment of withdrawal, and stand in my garden shaking with terror, screaming and defying the dark, taunting it - until I can take it no more, and enjoy the blissful relief of a dose that would stun an elephant.

You want to know something really morbid? Before I discovered I had leukemia I would actually wish for some terminal illness (painless, symptom-less of course), so that I could sell everything I own and bugger off to Thailand and live out my few remaining days in a crack haze, being 'attended to' by eunuchs and lady-boys. How stunningly selfish is that? Now that I do have a terminal illness, lady-f**k-luck has decided that my terminal illness is about as terminal as life itself. How annoying. And you know what, I am almost absolutely certain (as certain as a chest-thumping, pretend alpha-male coward) that if my parents were not alive, I would do just that. Stick two fingers up to the bank manager and everyone else, and run away to some foreign land for, let's say, a totally hedonistic life for as long as my money would allow. Then a shot-gun to the head and eternal nothingness. How can you tranqualise, drug, or medicate for a thought process like that? Is it delusional? Does everyone have these kind of whimsys?

I dunno.

But, let's look on the bright side. There is always tomorrow, and with that, hope. I stand under trees infested with pidgeons, every lunchtime.


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## Guest (Dec 27, 2006)

Yes, now I understand

G.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Whoa, Martin, whoa. I am only now beginning to get an glimpse of who you are.

Your existential angst is overwhelming. It reverberates from your paragraph like an army of drum bands on a promenade.

Bang bang bang, bang bang bang, brupti brupti brupti brup, bang bang bang; bang bang bang, bang bang bang, bruppupti brup bruppupti brup, bang bang bang.

It's all the banging in the background. I'm hearing you.


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## Cam (Dec 13, 2006)

*I hope you feel better soon man.*


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> I am only now beginning to get an glimpse of who you are


Really? Damn. I'm a open book. A book of blood, so to speak. As soon as I'm opened, I'm red.



> Your existential angst is overwhelming


Perhaps. But I cope with it. I manage. The shame of it all is that there are, incredibly, people who love and care for me, even now - and they are the ones who have to cope with the trail of carnage I leave behind. I am a bastard, I know this, but not such a bastard that I don't try and repair the damage. But it's like putting a plaster on a dam.....and it makes me wonder; even people who are your blood, your loved ones - or ones who have professed their love....is it only words? Is there a breaking point for everyone?

Perhaps that what I'm unconsciously trying to find out. And I think I know the answer....and when I do, I'll be a lonely, miserable man, sitting in a rocking chair, surrounded by empty gin bottles, rejected manuscipts, cursing everything and everone.

The only thing that will save someone like myself, and Sebastian, is either stupendous luck and/or talent. And the two are, unfortunately, interchangable and equally fickle.


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## Hopefull (Dec 1, 2006)

Martin,

Do you think you should post when you are high?

I nearly blacked out when I read your post, the monitor looked as if it was sliding off the desk!

Bailee


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

My god/s woman, you're psychic! I am in fact smashed out of my brains. How did you know that?

Actually, I'm not. I'm biblically hungover. To me, in effect, it's the same thing.


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## Hopefull (Dec 1, 2006)

Martin,

They may be words, but they do mean something dammit! these people bloody well care about you, get that into your stubborn head.
I think you see them as just words because you use them like an artist uses a paintbrush, they are just a tool to you.

Bailee


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

My God, Marty (Do people call you that ever? If so, do you like it/hate it/or are you totally indifferent to it? I know this man named Marty. Biggest idiot I've ever met. Well...biggest idiot I've ever met and have had intermittent contact with in any case as he's step-related to me....true story, he came into my house once, and was passing by my bedroom for some reason or another and saw a painting above my bed. "Nice painting", he observed somewhat absently. "Thanks," I replied, secretly wishing him dead. After evidentally arriving at the conclusion in his tiny little head that his feigned interest was too meagre, he decided to summon up a little more. "Hmm...so who did that painting anyway?" he asked...boredom swimming through his veins. "Monet," I replied, wishing for a piano to come crashing through my roof and pancake him into nothing. "Oh, Monet? Nice. An original?" I began to chuckle mildly at what could only have been a substandard but perfectly normal and ironic joke, only to see no trace of humour on his face. Not so much as a hint of sarcasm. He was being serious and I just couldn't bear to respond. Yes, Marty...I have a one hundred million dollar original Monet above my bed. I just don't have the heart to sell it.)

Anyway, I think i'll continue with just using Martin if that's all the same to you.

Okay...Martin...damnit, you paint such a gorgeous picture of misery. It would be quite something, I should think, to actually know you on a personal level, as I'm curious if you adopt a veneer of levity and light-heartedness when in social contact with others. And then maybe you come here, cloaked in relative anonymity, and pour out the worst of you. I really hope so. Because I would hate to think (as banal as this sounds), that someone as clever and talented as yourself would be quite as miserable as he lets on. I'm not going to sit here and pontificate about how you should be happy, how you're fortunate with having multiple women love you, having a loving family, having been blessed with a wicked imagination and vast reserves of barely tapped talent...how you're not so insane as to not be able to pull down a respectable sum of money every year, boring though your job might be...how you're blessed with a white, English upbringing, most probably middle-class, at least...etc, etc.

I know it isn't all that convincing to compare your situation to that of others (for example, starving babies in Africa...my personal favourite). I mean, we all have our own hells and they're all relative only to themselves. But I think what the major problem here for you is, and probably the reason why, for the most part, I'm not nearly as depressed as you profess to be...is that I believe in God, and you don't. I know, I know...One can't just decide to believe one day and then everything becomes rosy. I'm not saying, "Hey, you should believe in God. Everything would be fine then!" I'm just observing that that seems to be the void that you're implying. Everything hedonistic has started to bore you. And you probably wouldn't be satisfied, in any significant sense, by moving to some obscure Indonesian island either. What you're missing is the mystery of God. The idea of something greater than the boring wastelands of terra firma.

I know you can't choose to believe really. Or rather, I know that someone with your intelligence doesn't just say, "You know, that's true. I think i'll start being a Christian for awhile and see how that works." But, really, that does seem to be the problem.

I could be way off base. Maybe I've been reading too many Homeskooled posts. But when I read what you just wrote, it sounded so painful (beautifully written pain, mind you), and you just sound like you're really lacking something meaningful in your life.

Anyway, I wish you the best. As for the leukemia and her being angry at your not trusting her with this information before...well, that's when you tell her that it's only because you feel so close to her now that you can reveal this to her. And how you want to start your engagement off without secrects...be true from the get-go. That sort of thing. I'm sure you've already thought through all this hundreds of times. In any case, good luck, and please keep us updated.

s.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

I have an idea Martin, though it is a bit crazy.

You should use your Mod privilages and print off all the posts you have ever written on this site and give them to your girlfriend to read.

If you still want to marry each other then you can have some confidence in your relationship being true.

I don't know, it's just an idea...


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## Epiphany (Apr 28, 2006)

> You should use your Mod privilages and print off all the posts you have ever written on this site and give them to your girlfriend to read.
> 
> If you still want to marry each other then you can have some confidence in your relationship being true.


GOD NO!!!! That would be disastrous. I am a firm believer that some people should just never know what is in Pandora's Box (or each person's own personal equivalent)...how could you expect your partner to understand things about yourself that you don't even understand. There are some areas better left untouched, even with the person you wish to end your days with. There are things that to discuss with your partner would create giant tsunamis where there should only be ripples...I found this out the hard way. Sometimes those dark corners of your mind are better left unexplored by others.



> But I think what the major problem here for you is, and probably the reason why, for the most part, I'm not nearly as depressed as you profess to be...is that I believe in God, and you don't.


You know seb, I would once have said this statement is ridiculous but I now will concede there could be some truth in this. I can't imagine ever changing my beliefs about god etc, but I can see how if you don't have that sense of a higher being who cares a fig about you or anything at all...if you don't feel that all-encompassing love from some superior entity then the world could seem more lonely and depressing. Not having any faith that there is someone up there who cares what happens to you does give a sense of aloneness..takes the magic out of it. But even if that is the problem, this observation doesn't make a lick of difference to those without faith...for that reason alone I wish I had just a little.



> and it makes me wonder; even people who are your blood, your loved ones - or ones who have professed their love....is it only words? Is there a breaking point for everyone?


I have wondered this on and off myself for years...in those moments when you question too much...detach too easily...moments of selfishness when you query your own importance and that of everyone else...at times like these it makes life feel like nothing more than a never-ending board game. I thought having a baby would make me question these things even more but I can honestly say that I have finally found my purpose...as simplistic as it sounds, it doesn't matter why I am here other than to have brought this wonderful little miracle into the world. 
Perhaps the answer to your question lies more in the nature of dp. I get the impression it is not an "everyone" question...when I have broached topics of a similar nature with friends etc I have been met with a sea of blank faces and quizzical looks...on this forum though I'm sure if that very question were posted as a topic it would end up pages long. Boils right back down to nothing more than a good old dose of existential angst.



> I often think I actually deserve some weird existential, er, transendental pleaure that other mortals to not experience. There is absolutely no qualifcation for this whatsoever. I am extraordinarily ordinary, and perhaps that's the problem. I hate being ordinary.


Ha...hilarious isn't it...that you refer to yourself as ordinary when you are so obviously blessed with such extraordinary talent. Isn't it odd how egotism and feelings of inferiority can co-exist? Such an oxymoron!!! I can relate to all you have said here...what I really don't understand is why, if we hate being ordinary, do we choose to stay that way...when we know we have the potential, the talent, the intelligence to be much much more, why do we not ever strive to achieve that?...or is that just the ego talking? :wink:

Anyway, like I said...since having my kid I feel as though I have finally discovered what life is all about...this is it...to create more life. Why??? Who gives a crap why...when you hold your little creation in your arms for the first time the why is no longer important...suddenly why "I" am here is such a boring question...I am here for this little being...this little part of me that is more important to me than anything in else in this universe. I am finally happy to just be ordinary.

Anyway...said my bit...contributed bugger all...I'm done now.
Hope everyone had a wonderful Xmas and is enjoying the New Year.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Interesting replies - and I thank you (and cringe with humility and embarassement) when you say I am intelligent/floating in a sea of barely untapped talent etc. Can I just get that one out of the way first? OK - I know I'm not stupid. But then again, I know that I am no more intelligent than then next person (actually - working in Cambridge, in an office where almost everyone is an Oxbridge Phd in Applied Mathematics, and I am - and I'm being honest, no false modesty here, probably clincally retarded when it comes to mental arithmetic, you feel rather dim; as you can imagine). I feel fraudulent that I have somehow managed to work in an industry for 10 years, do well at it, without actually knowing what the hell I am doing. I look back and think - 'How did I manage to convince everyone that I was doing a good job?'. For instance - I've just come back to work, and I've got to do something which my qualifications say that I should be able to do with my eyes closed, but I've just read the emails and feel prickly with panic. It's like reading arabic! And because of my acute sense of intellectual embarrassement, I doubt that I'll ask someone how to do it, and just mumble my way through it - or rather, just put it off until it all crashes around my head. Yes, that's what I'll do! I may, I say _may_ have a mild talent for writing fiction, but what does that add up to? Not even a tin of beans. Being mildly talented isn't enough for me. I want to be the best, lauded, praised for my literary genuis - which I know I am utterly incapable of. It's a simple fact. I am average, despite what you may think. And when I call myself average, I still feel that I am elevating myself a little higher than I should be. If I ever get published then, perhaps, I will be more comfortable with myself. Perhaps. As it's really the only thing that I can do moderatly well and actually enjoy. Which leads me on to the 'God' question.

If it weren't you Sebastian, with your sincere intentions and _my_ sincere admiration/respect for you and your intelligence (Which shines - by the way. When I think of you, and this is in a completley un-homoerotic way, despite what you'd like to think , I hear a the sound of tuning forking begin twanged under water ) I would insert a big fat 'SIGH' before I said anything, which probably would elucidate what I felt about it far better than any word I could type.

Sebastian - this 'God' that you think I am missing; you have come to this conclusion because you have logically deduced that I am dissatisfied/bored with hedonistic pleasures. OK, let's think about that. Firstly; the assumption is that hedonistic pleasures are all that matters to me and without them my life is not worth living. But hang on, we'd better make sure that when we talk about 'hedonistic pleasures'. I think you get the impression that unless I am in a constant booze haze, surrounded by gorgeous women, that I'm two minutes away from hanging from a rope. I guess I haven't done much to dismiss this - because I keep banging on about how these two things, in particular, drag me out of morbid rumination and anxiety. But it's not true. I am happiest, if am honest, when I am gently writing some fiction, on my own, or lying in bed, reading a good book and having a cup of camomile tea. The problem is that when my attention fades, or I get frustrated because my fiction is going knowhere, or I can't instantly understand what the book is about, I get angry - frustrated, and THEN I whip myself up in a frenzy and decide, in my infinate wisdow, that getting smashed out of my brains or bullshitting some women in a club will make it all better. Which it does, for a bit. So you see, it has nothing to do with a void; or rather a 'God' shaped hole in my head that has to be filled with 'Spirit' to make me happy. Not at all. Besides the fact, as you correctly state, that I consider 'God' as an unpleasant fiction, in whatever form, at best (or worst). At worst (or best) and more usually, a utterly meaningless term. Really, you _have _to understand this from my point of view. When someone says; 'You are unhappy because you don't believe in god/don't have faith', I read it, nod my head (or rather, shake it) and hear....'The arm of an orangutan is useful as a boomerang.' Really, I mean that. It's not that I don't understand the 'concept' of the 'God/s' (whichever one/s you are alluding to), but because I am utterly, utterly (more than my name is Martin) convinced that there is no 'God', or 'Spirit', or whatever this mystical stuff is that will magically make me happy, does not exist. It's not that, perhaps (as long as it isn't the evil god, jealous, bloodthirsty god of the Christian old testament, or the slightly more persuasive and moral, yet dreamily insane sermons of Jesus, or the similarly harsh yet loving god of the Koran, or the quasi-god of Buddhism) that I wouldn't want it, but to me it's an absolutely insane concept.

Some questions don't have answers Sebastian. Just ask your child in Africa. It's a simple fact. A fact that we, as evoluntionary quagmires (or rather, the creepy concept that our 'intelligence' is _perversely_ intelligent compared to other creatures) expect every question, every torment, to have an answer. And when people cannot accept this, or somehow fix it or come to terms with it, they fall back on one of three things. Accepting their 'lot' in life, suicide, or embracing religion. Since I am unable (physically, mentally, emotionally) to embrace 'religion' or 'open my heart....to......xyx', it leaves the other two. I've tried suicide, failed, and realised the complete selfishness of it; not just to my family, but to myself - because (again - as you stated) I am blessed in a way, a relative way, and I can squeeze some pleasure out of life. So that's not an option either, anymore, although the thought is always lurking at the back of my mind. So it leaves only one alternative. Get on with it. Which I am, and which I will do until the day I die. That's enough for me. Unfortunately, it is my friends here on the board who get the rough end of the stick. Yes - I accept it, and yes (as you alluded to Sebastian), I (most of the time) present a facade of reasonableness, so you, my friends, are the ones who become burdoned with the green stink that lurks beneath my very thin veneer of 'happyness'.

Interestingly, and Epiphany mentioned this, I think the word 'responsibility' might have some impact on my life. If I ever did have children, and I do want them (for reasons I don't understand - and yes, I can all hear you shrieking with horror at the prospect of my seed bringing forth an innocent child, to be confronted with a parent like me!), I have an inkling, and this again might seem blindingly obvious, that instead of being completely absorbed with me, me, me, me, me, me, I might instead be complelled (at least - dear christ, I hope so) to concentrate all my energies on that child.

But I don't want to bring a child into the world when I am so unpredictable. I'm not stupid enough to think that a child is a sticking plaster for my psychological wounds. Not at all. That would be idiotic and unfair to the child. I'll start with someone less dramatic. Perhaps a cactus. Then I will progress onto maybe, er, a Hampster, then a dog. If none of them die a horrible death, or become depressed/savage maniacs, then I might take the leap and have a child.



> Boils right back down to nothing more than a good old dose of existential angst


Yes, it does, in a way. I despair at the quite breathtaking insanity of religion. I really do. I makes me wonder what the hell is going on. I despair at politics. I despair at cruelty. I despair at my own ineptness. I despair at greed. I despair at the fundamental nature of human beings, and the really quite nasty pieces of work we 'collectively' are. But that's not really the heart of the matter. If I were a more 'balanced' (perhaps the word is ignorant, or liberally apathetic?) person, I could ignore it all, and just get on with my life (and those close to me) instead of ruining it every six months. I am close to believing, but not understanding, what is at the root of my 'problems.' It is anger. And no - before you say it, it is not anger or disappointment with life in general - it is, yawn, anger at some things that my father/sister have done. I've intellectually dissected them, but - as my mother, friends, and almost everyone who is close to me has said, I've got to let go. That is my challange. And I have no idea where to start, and......I don't know it I can....or want to. Some things are unforgivable, but again - I miss the point. What does it matter to me to anymore? I'm only hurting myself by hanging on to the rage.

So you see Seb, I haven't got a god-shaped hole in my head that needs to be filled with 'him/her/it/them'. I'm just scarred, wounded - and have compounded this scarring by feeding it my rage. I just need to be healed. And it's my repsonsibility to find out how I do that.



> and it makes me wonder; even people who are your blood, your loved ones - or ones who have professed their love....is it only words? Is there a breaking point for everyone?


Dear god, how I've wondered about that as well. What is at the root of love? Does anyone truely love enough? In my case, honestly, if it wasn't for my mother I would be dead. Simple as that. But how long could I carry on being a twat, and have her saving me? Is paternal care eternal?



> I replied, wishing for a piano to come crashing through my roof and pancake him into nothing. "Oh, Monet? Nice. An original?"


 :lol: 

Sebastian - let me give you a little bit of advice if I may. Unlike me, I'd wager that you are someone, due to your integrity, who is unable to change, chameleon -like, to suit/humour the stupidity or idiosyncrasies of people around you. I do it all the time. It makes life easier, and calms the rage. It's been an evolutionary wont with me, because otherwise I'd probably be in jail for murder. Wanton ignorance really doesn't bother me - but wanton, deliberate rudeness does. God how I hate that. Oh, and people eating like pigs. Sometimes I sit on the train listening to someone thirty feet away eating a packet of crisps or whatever, making an ear shattering, grunting, gurgling, lip-smacking thunder like a f******g pregnant sow snorting cocaine and think of the most horrendous, hideous tortures I could make them endure. It's like nails down a blackboard. KILL!

Ahem.

Oh, and no - strangely nobody has ever called me Marty, not that I can remember. I don't mind it though. It's either Martin, Marts, Mart, or bastard.


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

Martin, Marty, Mart, Bastard...whatever...

I will have to remind you that if you do marry her that means you're not supposed to have sex with anyone else 

You know what? Why don't you just marry her? You already asked her, the whole world already knows, why don't you just do something different this time and marry her? You might learn about caring for someone else, emotional growth, committment (you can't be out ODing on prescriptions for the hell of it when you have to answer to a wife), and it seems like she might have a few things to teach you.

I'd say do it. Obviously you make her happy, so it's no loss to her to be tied down with you.

But maybe set the date for a year or so from now, so you get a lot more time to get to know her, to really be comfortable with her, and to decide your compatibility.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

I'm torn Person3. I've just spent another fantastic weekend with this fantastic woman, and to be honest, I'm not afraid of marrying her - put simply; I'm afraid of myself. I'm afraid of the quite despicable emotional cruelty that I am blithey capable of.

A potential marriage to this women, if I were sane/not a git/not a child in an adult's body (delete as applicable, or not, as the case may be) would be bliss....I'm sure of it. But unfortunately, I am all of the above, however hard I try not to be.

I get, on average, about six text messages a day from her saying how wonderful I am, how caring, how much she loves me.....it's astonishing. I am a facade! A caricture of myself. How can someone love that? I'm not being self-piting, it's the truth. Maybe it's some kind of evil subconscious experiement on my part, eh? Because, despite what yo feminists might think, I don't deliberatly manipulate anyone.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2007)

Well if it means anything to you, you're my favourite Mod )Man hug... pats your back ect...( =)


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Right back at ya sweet cheeks!


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2007)

Martinelv said:


> Right back at ya sweet cheeks!


Aww bless ya ... any time baby


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

You know, I wish I were gay. I really do. I'd be pushing the 200 mark, easy.

And yes, oh lord, how proud I would be.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2007)

Martinelv said:


> You know, I wish I were gay. I really do. I'd be pushing the 200 mark, easy.
> 
> And yes, oh lord, how proud I would be.


Life be sooooooooo easy... wouldn't it? (Thinks of world with out "Snakes with tits* *big sigh*...............................................................................................................................................................
........................................................................
........................................................................
................................
................................
...............................................................
..............................................................
.................................................................
.......................................................................................................................

*breaths some air before he dies*... .. .

Gay and proud... but you'd be riddled like no other, and you'd be a carrier of every STD going... BONUS! 

I... I... i. ... I would ... want you to be my first Martinelv *puppy eyes* 

HAVE IT!


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## Epiphany (Apr 28, 2006)

> I am a facade! A caricture of myself. How can someone love that? I'm not being self-piting, it's the truth. Maybe it's some kind of evil subconscious experiement on my part, eh? Because, despite what yo feminists might think, I don't deliberatly manipulate anyone.


You know Martin, if I sit there and think too much about myself, my life etc, I feel the same way. I have mentioned in the past that it feels a lot like "The Truman Show" but I've just realised that it's more like Truman with a twist...instead of being the only one who doesn't know my whole life is phoney I feel like the only one who does know!!! Based on that reasoning it makes sense that you would feel as though you are manipulating people as you feel they don't know who you really are. I believe you don't deliberately manipulate anyone...I am positive you are capable and at times perhaps may do, but I don't think you set out to do so. What's more is I'd put money on the fact that 98% of the people in your life don't feel as though you have manipulated them in any way (largely due to the charm that is Martin)...am I right? Which only adds insult to injury making you feel even more devious. 
Ok...I could be way off...perhaps I'm only describing myself here...maybe I'm just attempting to manipulate you all to make this post about me. :twisted:

My point is that can it really be considered manipulating if the person doesn't believe they have been?


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2007)

Martin, I understand your girlfriend adores you if you put on your very charming mask. Who wouldnt worship the ground you walk on, if the only side of you you show is that side, that side that is almost -too-good-to-be-true for your woman? She falls for that, many women fall for that and you know that very well.
But as you say, it is fake, it is a charade. When are you gonna tell your gf it IS a charade (before you getting married to her and your charade will inevitably start falling apart and she will feel conned). She will be very desillusioned if not, heartbroken.
You afraid she will walk away if you start showing some other less pleasant sides of you to her? I guess, otherwise, you wouldnt need a charade.

Please do talk about all this with her. You have shown here, and continue to show, you are very honest. Let her share in that as well.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2007)

*Epiphany wrote:*


> My point is that can it really be considered manipulating if the person doesn't believe they have been?


Yes. Whether manipulation is intentional or not doesnt make a difference to the fact it is manipulation. Even if the person doesnt believe they have been. And if they havent been, they could at least ask why would someone else think they were manipulative. Because if they are open to look at it, most probably, if they had been manipulative, they are willing to look if that was the case and correct. If they are not open to look at it, then it is almost a guarantee they HAVE been manipulative.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Right, first thing's first Martin: you are worthy of a relationship.

So don't put yourself down, I am sure you aren't nearly as evil as you think you are. And say you have done things which have been manipulative or foolish....well I expect you did them because you felt you couldn't fulfill your needs any other way.

Look, rather than worrying about this, why don't you:

Tell your girlfriend you aren't ready for marriage yet, you want to develop a deep and long-lasting relationship before you even think of it.

Then:

Just be nice to her, the way you think she should be treated, without going over the top in any way. Just buy her small flowers and put her old receipts in the bin...do a bit of washing up, and go a few weeks without trying to wow her. I bet your relationship will stay more than intact and it may make you feel less manipulative.

You can but try.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2007)

miss_starling said:


> Look, rather than worrying about this, why don't you:
> 
> Tell your girlfriend you aren't ready for marriage yet, you want to develop a deep and long-lasting relationship before you even think of it.
> 
> ...


Great advice 8)


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## widescreened (Jun 22, 2005)

Martin, you are supposed to be a moderator, a role model and an inspiration for others, especially newbies to this forum. On the one hand you say you are 'cured' of dp/dr. You encourage people to do this and do that and avoid doing other things and ways of thinking. Then you go and post this crass nonsense. Its ridiculous. You actively draw attention towords yourself and then push people away when you have lured them in. Lured isnt too strong a word either. You are deliberate in your designs and you know it. So its time you got yourself a life and stopped being so selfish.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

What? A role model? Christ no. I've never pretended to be, or would I want to be. And since when does the remit of a Moderator suddenly become a role model? I've never pretended to be a role model.

Yes, I am cured of DR/DP, and yes - I put my points of view regarding recovery across. And yes - I put long whining posts on here about my precarious emotional state. And? If you don't want to read it, don't read it.



> You actively draw attention towords yourself and then push people away when you have lured them in. Lured isnt too strong a word either. You are deliberate in your designs and you know it


I've never denied any of this.

And I have got a life, thanks. What has that got to do with anything?


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

To be honest, I think this is a good little spot to write something that is in my mind:

This isn't just a dissociation forum, it's a depression, borderline, anxiety, OCD forum.

And if emotional instability and attention seeking are associated to DP also, so be it, let us all write about that.

Reading about Martin's life has helped me put another piece in the puzzle. With respect to your feelings Martin, you mention a lot of the things which come part and parcel with personal instability, for instance difficulty sticking to one job, seeking stimulation from drugs, erratic relationship patterns and a desire for the unattainable. And being a moderator doesn't suddening ingrain you with character. Oh if only that were true, then all you'd have to do in life would be to secure the odd interview with impressive institutions and everything else would work itself out. And people with these character traits are often perfectly good at getting through interviews. As you say somewhere on the board, you can get ridiculously intelligent people to think you are also ridiculously intelligent through using charm. And I am sure you are intelligent too. But crucially if you use charm as opposed to sheer hard work to get yourself through, it can only add to that sense of being a fraud. Again, something I relate to.
I think just about the only time I feel I am being really true to myself is when I write poetry, so it is probably fitting that the I write dis-jointedly.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Thanks Miss Starling.



> you mention a lot of the things which come part and parcel with personal instability, for instance difficulty sticking to one job, seeking stimulation from drugs, erratic relationship patterns and a desire for the unattainable


Yep - that sums me up pretty well. I know who I am, but not why I am like I am. I don't hide from any aspects of my personality.



> it can only add to that sense of being a fraud.


Oh yes, absolutely. I feel like a terrible fraud. Whether I am or not, I don't know. I definately 'big-up' myself, so to speak, to get into jobs that really, I think, are a couple of notches up the ladder from my ability. To be honest, I'm in the wrong field. But I've being doing it for so long, that I can't imagine making a living out of anything else. As with yourself, the only time I feel at peace, and genuinely happy with what I've produced, is when I'm writing. Of course, I'm furiously frustrated that I can't get published - but one must keep trying. And I will.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Martinelv said:


> Yep - that sums me up pretty well. I know who I am, but not why I am like I am. I don't hide from any aspects of my personality.


That is the other thing about the problem though, isn't it? One is constantly aware of there being something lacking?


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2007)

widescreened said:


> You actively draw attention towords yourself and then push people away when you have lured them in. Lured isnt too strong a word either. You are deliberate in your designs and you know it.


*Martin wrote:*


> I've never denied any of this.


Martin, what you are actually admitting is that (also) on this board you use people for your own needs of attention, drama etc.
Good to get that confirmed. How does it feel for you using people? Does it feel good?


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> One is constantly aware of there being something lacking?


Abso-bloody-lutely.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2007)

Wendy said:


> widescreened said:
> 
> 
> > You actively draw attention towords yourself and then push people away when you have lured them in. Lured isnt too strong a word either. You are deliberate in your designs and you know it.
> ...


In case you just missed my post to you (sorry, I just dont like users).


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

:roll: Sigh.



> Martin, what you are actually admitting is that (also) on this board you use people for your own needs of attention, drama etc.
> Good to get that confirmed. How does it feel for you using people? Does it feel good?


Yes it does, and no it doesn't. It's taken me years to be this satanically evil Wendy. Bloody hard work I can tell you.


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## widescreened (Jun 22, 2005)

Martin, you still seem driven in being controvertial. This is fine, provided its not at other peoples expense. Being clever all the time doesnt make life more interesting, it makes it more complicated and needlessly so.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

I wish to god I'd never started this post. If I knew it was going to turn into a character assassination then I'd never have bothered.

Perhaps you're right Widescreened. There's nothing worse than having a boring life.


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## widescreened (Jun 22, 2005)

You can have a stable life, and keep it interesting at the same time.

As for character assasination, I dont intend to do that to anyone. When you see a less savory character trait of your own in another person, the reflex is to jump to criticism, which I have done in this thread. noone is perfect, but we all have to try harder to go beyond the angst, frustration, rather than to let anger get the better of us and give in to duplicity and self destruction.

Give yourself and this woman a chance this time. You could surprize yourself and actually be content with her if you do this.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

*DISCLAIMER: Everything I have write is from my own experience of being me. If it doesn't apply to you, don't take it personally. I could just be projecting my shit onto you.*

Within the drama of it, I think there is a genuine desire to be a good person. I think underlyingly you are, but there is a lot of distraction, probably because you don't have a fully developed "character" (ie ability to get what you want out of life in a completely orthodox way), so you keep striving for the next buzz.

And to be honest I think you have to make entertainment out of your life if you want to crack the code of developing character, indeed just to live with lacking it. I admit you have probably betrayed your girlfriend a bit by some of the things you have written on the site, but I suspect that the reason you wrote them was to work out how to be the best boyfriend for her. Maybe you thought that by writing about your dishonesty you could get other people to say Oh no! Martin! How could you....in an attempt to motivate yourself to keep in line, or just as self-punishment.

That's the problem when you have ego probs, you are inclined to rely on other people to guage what is right and wrong because you lack the necessary discipline and boundaries yourself. And lacking character makes one feel so pathetic inside you then wish for people to attack you for being so shit.

Just because I feel bad now for saying that:

*DISCLAIMER: Everything I have write is from my own experience of being me. If it doesn't apply to you, don't take it personally. I could just be projecting my shit onto you.*


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

Martinelv said:


> Interesting replies - and I thank you (and cringe with humility and embarassement) when you say I am intelligent/floating in a sea of barely untapped talent etc.





Martinelv said:


> I may, I say _may_ have a mild talent for writing fiction, but what does that add up to? Not even a tin of beans. Being mildly talented isn't enough for me. I want to be the best, lauded, praised for my literary genuis - which I know I am utterly incapable of. It's a simple fact. I am average, despite what you may think. And when I call myself average, I still feel that I am elevating myself a little higher than I should be.


I would never say something to someone, especially a friend, along the lines of "floating in a sea of barely tapped talent" without being quite confident in it's validity. What you have to realize here, Martin, and this is totally off-topic and probably not of interest to anyone else...is that you are _well_ above average in your creative writing abilities. And the only reason I would think that you would think that you wouldn't be as talented as you are is because you're comparing your writing with that stale, banal drivel dribbling out of the pens of your so-called "literary leaders" of today. I am bored to death with today's writers. Or, I should say, I'm bored to death with the celebrated writers of today. It's just all so forced and polished. I love the writers who rove wildly and lash out with their imagination. Stodgy, symbolic, metaphorical crap bores the bejeesus out of me. And you write the way I like. I mean, I know that's totally subjective and what not. But that's what I like. And I wouldn't say that I thought you had enormous reservoirs of untapped talent if I didn't truly believe so. It seeths forth from your posts on here, especially the ones that aren't actually writings of yours.

I mean, this is all beside the point and what not, but I think it's silly that you relegate your writing to being "average". And it's a shame. Writers like yourself have the distinct possibility of really hitting your stride. You have to find a story that embodies your style and that really hits home with you and it could then burst forth from you with volcanic force. I suppose you think that it's presumptuous of me to assume that you haven't already had tortured nights of creative frenzy where you'd exhausted every morsel of story-telling talent rattling about in your soul. Maybe you think you've already told "your story"; have felt that surge of passion and that certainty that this is "your story", the one you were meant to write, and in the end just felt emptied and spent, and used up and finished. Maybe your literary orgasm sputtered and dripped like a leaky faucet where once you thought the clouds would burst. But, I don't think that's true. I can read between the lines and I love what you write. And I think one day you'll find your stride (God, how trite is that comment), and everyone else will see what I'm barely glimpsing right now.

And that's silly, too. I don't like to sound like i'm judging your writing or your style or anything like that. You've written a lot more than me, i'm sure. And you've probably defined your style more coherently than I have. Your stories certainly have more structure than mine. I don't like sounding like i'm saying to you: "Well, Martin, what you should really do is this..." because I have no business saying that. What I'm saying, or trying to say in a million sentences because I'm too cowardly to knock it down to one...is that, Your writing has a lot of potential. You just need to find your story. There...how's that for hokey condescension. You know, i don't know why everytime i write something to someone that's supposed to be helpful I end up tripping over myself and spluttering out inanities that i'm not even sure make sense. Look...bottom line. I'll try it again. I don't presume to know what it's like in your shoes, Martin. But I like reading what you write. Whether they're posts on here or stories of yours. And I get the feeling that one day you could write something that would surpass reactions of mere enjoyment and reflection. You could write something incredible. I think your story is yet to come.

And now...to God!



Martin said:


> Sebastian - this 'God' that you think I am missing; you have come to this conclusion because you have logically deduced that I am dissatisfied/bored with hedonistic pleasures. OK, let's think about that. Firstly; the assumption is that hedonistic pleasures are all that matters to me and without them my life is not worth living. But hang on, we'd better make sure that when we talk about 'hedonistic pleasures'. I think you get the impression that unless I am in a constant booze haze, surrounded by gorgeous women, that I'm two minutes away from hanging from a rope. I guess I haven't done much to dismiss this - because I keep banging on about how these two things, in particular, drag me out of morbid rumination and anxiety. But it's not true. I am happiest, if am honest, when I am gently writing some fiction, on my own, or lying in bed, reading a good book and having a cup of camomile tea. The problem is that when my attention fades, or I get frustrated because my fiction is going knowhere, or I can't instantly understand what the book is about, I get angry - frustrated, and THEN I whip myself up in a frenzy and decide, in my infinate wisdow, that getting smashed out of my brains or bullshitting some women in a club will make it all better. Which it does, for a bit. So you see, it has nothing to do with a void; or rather a 'God' shaped hole in my head that has to be filled with 'Spirit' to make me happy. Not at all. Besides the fact, as you correctly state, that I consider 'God' as an unpleasant fiction, in whatever form, at best (or worst). At worst (or best) and more usually, a utterly meaningless term. Really, you _have _to understand this from my point of view. When someone says; 'You are unhappy because you don't believe in god/don't have faith', I read it, nod my head (or rather, shake it) and hear....'The arm of an orangutan is useful as a boomerang.' Really, I mean that. It's not that I don't understand the 'concept' of the 'God/s' (whichever one/s you are alluding to), but because I am utterly, utterly (more than my name is Martin) convinced that there is no 'God', or 'Spirit', or whatever this mystical stuff is that will magically make me happy, does not exist. It's not that, perhaps (as long as it isn't the evil god, jealous, bloodthirsty god of the Christian old testament, or the slightly more persuasive and moral, yet dreamily insane sermons of Jesus, or the similarly harsh yet loving god of the Koran, or the quasi-god of Buddhism) that I wouldn't want it, but to me it's an absolutely insane concept.


Okay. Listen. I get it. You're an atheist. You've thought it through. You understand the notions...you get, at least, the concept of why all those silly little religious wars are fought...you fully comprehend that there are some people who really do believe that some sort of supernatural phantom exists somewhere, sometime, someplace beyond human cognizance, and you think it's foolish and pointless and what not. And that's all cool. I get that you get that I get that you get it. And arguing about any kind of theology, while cerebrally stimulating, is really, little more than intellectual masturbation. That's right, all you word-pouncing fundamental lunatics out there! I said that your discussions are little more than intellectual masturbation!!!

The fact that in your quote above you had to qualify, and have to in virtually every post that you make on this subject, that you aren't necessarily talking about one deity or another...and that your qualifications even take into account that vague agnostic God which floats somewhere beyond the realm of taxonomic definition...all just really show how futile the whole process of discussing such things really is. This is one of the reasons why I rarely post in the Spirituality section. I mean, I love reading some of the postings. Some of the ideas and some of the exchanges are extremely stimulating in an intellectual way. And some of the things, particularly that Homeskooled posts (and I stress, not ALL of the things...but some) really do hit home on other levels as well. But for me, the Spirituality section is all about debate...argument logistics...refutations and rhetoric. It's interesting and I enjoy reading how others feel as well. But no one is going to find any truth in there. I don't think. Semantics and God just don't mix well.

See...I actually wrote a whole long thing about this and was going to post it here about a year ago under a title called "Anarchy on Trial". I was sending it to you, Martin, to respond to something you had said in the Spirituality section. Alas, what I wrote really worked for me and I decided to put it in my book instead. So...umm...you know, when that comes out, maybe that will help clear things up a little more.

This is the way I currently understand things. There are three different types of intelligences.

There is the mind which you use to process ideas, calculate your dinner tip, manoeuvre your king out of check.

Then there's the intuitive one. Kind of a hybrid of the other two. With this we fall in love, ravenously devour a work of art, or find ourselves captured in the lyrical beauty of our favourite song.

Then there's the spiritual intelligence. With this, one _knows_ God. It's this that inspires courage, altruism, and which is weaved into the wild tapestry of individual destiny.

You can't rationally debate, with empiricism and logic, the existence of God in the same way you would weigh the evidence at a murder trial. These are totally separate things. I myself am far more confident in my Spiritual Intelligence than I am in my Logical one. And I don't mean that in a flippant kind of disingenuous way. I really mean that. I have an inalienable belief in destiny and God that no logic could ever touch. I have faith in the intangible more than I do in what is generally considered "real". This is all just a crazy bit of madness, after all.

I understand how you find it impossible to accept certain things. I can totally see where you're coming from. I just feel something much greater and I always have, even when I thought there was nothing...if that makes any sense. I'm not going to end this by chastizing you for being an atheist or give a little pouty "I wish you could see the world through my eyes" or something like that. And I'm not going to say something repulsively politically correct like, "Well, to each our own!  Yay!!!! Everybody wins!!! Let's get ice cream!" Because I don't believe that.

What I will say, my dear friend, is that I wish you a good evening.

Oh yeah, and have fun in hell, sinner!!! :twisted:

s.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> Just because I feel bad now for saying that


Don't feel bad Miss Starling (fly fly fly, fly fly fly)...what you said is true. I am a bastard, not proud of it, but either unwilling or unable to do anything about it. Perhaps I prefer the guilt.

Sebastian - regarding my writing; thank you once again. Perhaps it's my morbid peroccupation with failure and depression that prevents me from thinking that I'll ever get any of my stuff published. I dunno. I have one completed novel, proof read and ready for the publishing agents, but something it stopping me. One day I'll pick it up, read it, and feel so frustrated at how crap it is, how juvenille the writing seems, too many adverbs, too....well, you get the idea, and the next day I'll pick it up, read it again, and feel a glow of egotistical satisfaction of biblical proportions and perpare my Booker Prize winning speech. I think the problem is that I've spent so long writing it, enjoyed writing it (it wasn't a teeth-gnashingly arduous chore, unlike almost everything else I have written), and can't see how I could write anything better. So I'm nervous; the chips are down. I don't see how I could/will be able to pick myself up if my opus is turned down. But we'll see. Nothing to lose except the threads of my sanity I guess.

As for god...



> And arguing about any kind of theology, while cerebrally stimulating, is really, little more than intellectual masturbation


Absolutely. But, T'WAS YOU WHO BROUGHT THE 'GOD' WORD UP!! Grrrr.. :wink: I find you guilty. How do you plead? Remember, god is watching.


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