# More on Focus Outward, tough love version



## Guest (Sep 21, 2004)

Just to clarify re Focus Outward, and the dangers of observing self.

When somebody has a physical pain, it might also help to not focus right ON the injured area - the notion of "distract yourself" is probably good advice. The more we sit and stare at the throbbing body part, the more we are conscious of the pain.

But...that is not what I'm saying with DP.

If you have a busted foot, the foot is going to heal whether you "focus on it" or not. It is going to heal at exactly the same RATE whether you focus on it or not. You can sit there and stare at your foot 24/7, or you can do everything in your power to not think about it, and it will heal at exactly the same rate.

With DP, the self-monitoring STOPS the healing.

This is not "oh, you'll feel better if you're not focused on it" like with the foot.

Depersonalization, derealization (dissociative altered states of consciousness) THRIVE on self-observation. They blossom, flourish and pulsate under the direct light of self-monitoring.

I do not say "do everything you can to NOT focus on yourself" just to help you get through the day a little easier. Every time you indulge in lenthy self-observation, you are solidifying the DP symptoms. Casting them in cement. Grinding them into your Self.

Trust me. With careful self-observation, never waivering, you can keep this symptom with you for life.

Peace,
J


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2004)

Just to clarify re Focus Outward, and the dangers of observing self.

When somebody has a physical pain, it might also help to not focus right ON the injured area - the notion of "distract yourself" is probably good advice. The more we sit and stare at the throbbing body part, the more we are conscious of the pain.

But...that is not what I'm saying with DP.

If you have a busted foot, the foot is going to heal whether you "focus on it" or not. It is going to heal at exactly the same RATE whether you focus on it or not. You can sit there and stare at your foot 24/7, or you can do everything in your power to not think about it, and it will heal at exactly the same rate.

With DP, the self-monitoring STOPS the healing.

This is not "oh, you'll feel better if you're not focused on it" like with the foot.

Depersonalization, derealization (dissociative altered states of consciousness) THRIVE on self-observation. They blossom, flourish and pulsate under the direct light of self-monitoring.

I do not say "do everything you can to NOT focus on yourself" just to help you get through the day a little easier. Every time you indulge in lenthy self-observation, you are solidifying the DP symptoms. Casting them in cement. Grinding them into your Self.

Trust me. With careful self-observation, never waivering, you can keep this symptom with you for life.

Peace,
J


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2004)

thanks janine for that post.

I understand that self-observation in the main problem with Dp, but how can we convince ourselves it's only self-observation who keeps us terribly like that? And how to focus outward more than 5 sec.? Very hard, because after focusing outward (I talk for me, example, I enjoy a TV show, or enjoy a movie, a show), I return to my "reality", and seem to have hours passed by, I feel more detached, like I returned to my life and feel more dissociated.

Thanks a lot

Cyn xxx


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2004)

thanks janine for that post.

I understand that self-observation in the main problem with Dp, but how can we convince ourselves it's only self-observation who keeps us terribly like that? And how to focus outward more than 5 sec.? Very hard, because after focusing outward (I talk for me, example, I enjoy a TV show, or enjoy a movie, a show), I return to my "reality", and seem to have hours passed by, I feel more detached, like I returned to my life and feel more dissociated.

Thanks a lot

Cyn xxx


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2004)

Keep trying.

Everyone finds their own method, way, etc.

I don't have any quick suggestions. It's hard. Feels nearly impossible.

You will fail every time you try it. But...you will also succeed even if it's for only five minutes.

Keep trying.

And then keep trying more.

And more.

It might take MONTHS of every ounce of your energy - it is one of the hardest thing you will ever do.

And the thing you "win" at the end is your mind back.

Peace,
Janine


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2004)

Keep trying.

Everyone finds their own method, way, etc.

I don't have any quick suggestions. It's hard. Feels nearly impossible.

You will fail every time you try it. But...you will also succeed even if it's for only five minutes.

Keep trying.

And then keep trying more.

And more.

It might take MONTHS of every ounce of your energy - it is one of the hardest thing you will ever do.

And the thing you "win" at the end is your mind back.

Peace,
Janine


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## shadowness (Sep 12, 2004)

thank you for that post...

things for me are getting harder and harder but i am so desperate to feel normal again...

reading that just helps think straight again.


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## shadowness (Sep 12, 2004)

thank you for that post...

things for me are getting harder and harder but i am so desperate to feel normal again...

reading that just helps think straight again.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2004)

explain this to me

Today, i go to class, i drive there, park the car, get out of the car & begin to walk to the building, out of NOWHERE & i mean nowhere feelings of weirdness just strike me. I get a little headache & things justappear weird. I feel very uncomfortable. So i go inside, go to the cafeteria, sit down and than suddenly anxiety sets in. For no reason i might add, i wasn't consciouslly anxious about anything prior to going to class. When i get to class the anxiety stays for most of the class & i guess what i would call Derealization is pretty intense.

Why is this?? I wasn't focusing inward until i started feeling weirder.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2004)

explain this to me

Today, i go to class, i drive there, park the car, get out of the car & begin to walk to the building, out of NOWHERE & i mean nowhere feelings of weirdness just strike me. I get a little headache & things justappear weird. I feel very uncomfortable. So i go inside, go to the cafeteria, sit down and than suddenly anxiety sets in. For no reason i might add, i wasn't consciouslly anxious about anything prior to going to class. When i get to class the anxiety stays for most of the class & i guess what i would call Derealization is pretty intense.

Why is this?? I wasn't focusing inward until i started feeling weirder.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2004)

Hi Bro,

Maybe just the idea of going in class makes you anxious without consciously knowing it? Or maybe you "know" you will feel this way (bad) in class, so your mind sets up to feel that way everytime?

I say that because I have too this problem, but in shopping centers (lol), it's like a pattern and Dp seems to coming out of nowhere, but it may be our mind playing tricks on us!

Hang on,

Cyn


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2004)

Hi Bro,

Maybe just the idea of going in class makes you anxious without consciously knowing it? Or maybe you "know" you will feel this way (bad) in class, so your mind sets up to feel that way everytime?

I say that because I have too this problem, but in shopping centers (lol), it's like a pattern and Dp seems to coming out of nowhere, but it may be our mind playing tricks on us!

Hang on,

Cyn


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## grant_r (Aug 25, 2004)

Ms. Baker-Freud said:


> Trust me. With careful self-observation, never waivering, you can keep this symptom with you for life.


AHHHHHHHHHHHH! That's a scary thought. But yes, Janine, I agree all the way. This is a great post- thank you.

-Grant with an "R"

Subliminal message: read Janine's books. She isn't paying me for this advert-isement.


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## grant_r (Aug 25, 2004)

Ms. Baker-Freud said:


> Trust me. With careful self-observation, never waivering, you can keep this symptom with you for life.


AHHHHHHHHHHHH! That's a scary thought. But yes, Janine, I agree all the way. This is a great post- thank you.

-Grant with an "R"

Subliminal message: read Janine's books. She isn't paying me for this advert-isement.


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## grant_r (Aug 25, 2004)

You're quite welcome, Ms. Baker-Freud.

-G


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## grant_r (Aug 25, 2004)

You're quite welcome, Ms. Baker-Freud.

-G


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2004)

For me it was the only way out. Your post reminded me of a way I used to think about 'it' 
A way I thought of resisting the urge to think ones way out was to use the analogy that if you had a scab over a wound and you kept on picking it, it would never get better. 
You could in theory keep a sore going forever if you kept a constant picking up. No matter how itchy, irritating, sore it is you have to resist picking at it. We know in the end that's what we have to do and that's how it heals. 
There have been times as Ive said before that I would be back sucked into DP land again. For me it is always secondary to anxiety and depression. But once the DP hits it seems this is me gone this time. 
But each time and Ive had a few relapses over the years the way out is always the same. Takes time as Janine says. My last relapse was 3 years ago and it took me 12 months to get to the point where if I get that DP kind of feeling thinking, I can just let the urge go in a few seconds. It still tricks me for a second or two. The hardest thing is to start and have any faith that it will work. Sometimes it was so hard I would think ' oh go for it ...thinking mull away' it was impossible to resist. But those fleeting moments of freedom would be the success I would build on. I still take a half dose of paxil (not sure what the equivalent dosage is as paxil is called something different here in Aus) I have no idea if its now just a placebo dose but I suspect not. I don't think I could have done this without meds.

I really get how hard it is. How desperately it seems one has to think ones way out. How weird and wacky you feel. I can still feel a bit wacky at times but I know it will pass. If you are wanting never to feel strange again it simply isn't going to happen. If you are looking never to have a weird thought again it ain't going to happen. Its being able to have whatever weird thought /feeling occur and not engage in a dialogue with yourself about it.
Love Deb


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2004)

For me it was the only way out. Your post reminded me of a way I used to think about 'it' 
A way I thought of resisting the urge to think ones way out was to use the analogy that if you had a scab over a wound and you kept on picking it, it would never get better. 
You could in theory keep a sore going forever if you kept a constant picking up. No matter how itchy, irritating, sore it is you have to resist picking at it. We know in the end that's what we have to do and that's how it heals. 
There have been times as Ive said before that I would be back sucked into DP land again. For me it is always secondary to anxiety and depression. But once the DP hits it seems this is me gone this time. 
But each time and Ive had a few relapses over the years the way out is always the same. Takes time as Janine says. My last relapse was 3 years ago and it took me 12 months to get to the point where if I get that DP kind of feeling thinking, I can just let the urge go in a few seconds. It still tricks me for a second or two. The hardest thing is to start and have any faith that it will work. Sometimes it was so hard I would think ' oh go for it ...thinking mull away' it was impossible to resist. But those fleeting moments of freedom would be the success I would build on. I still take a half dose of paxil (not sure what the equivalent dosage is as paxil is called something different here in Aus) I have no idea if its now just a placebo dose but I suspect not. I don't think I could have done this without meds.

I really get how hard it is. How desperately it seems one has to think ones way out. How weird and wacky you feel. I can still feel a bit wacky at times but I know it will pass. If you are wanting never to feel strange again it simply isn't going to happen. If you are looking never to have a weird thought again it ain't going to happen. Its being able to have whatever weird thought /feeling occur and not engage in a dialogue with yourself about it.
Love Deb


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## Blake (Aug 10, 2004)

its such a catch-22. janine/board, i 1000% believe you are correct. focus outward and you will destroy dp.

its like trying to read an eye chart correctly with drunk goggles on. the ability to focus is just what i don't have. FRUSTRATION!

i want to participate in my life, try to produce things, interact with people...so i can have something to flip over to when my brain starts to watch itself, so i can say " hey brain, sorry but ive got other things to think about"...but i cant rebuild because the glove fits so well, so to speak. my brain slides into automation before i can replace the thought.

blah, bad night.. thought-provoking post as always janine.

cognitive-behavioral therapy is the only thing i can think of to help break this cycle. re-train the brain.

blake


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## Blake (Aug 10, 2004)

its such a catch-22. janine/board, i 1000% believe you are correct. focus outward and you will destroy dp.

its like trying to read an eye chart correctly with drunk goggles on. the ability to focus is just what i don't have. FRUSTRATION!

i want to participate in my life, try to produce things, interact with people...so i can have something to flip over to when my brain starts to watch itself, so i can say " hey brain, sorry but ive got other things to think about"...but i cant rebuild because the glove fits so well, so to speak. my brain slides into automation before i can replace the thought.

blah, bad night.. thought-provoking post as always janine.

cognitive-behavioral therapy is the only thing i can think of to help break this cycle. re-train the brain.

blake


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## nemesis (Aug 10, 2004)

I've never felt more connected and filled with joy than the moment (and subsequent 30 minutes) after receiving a clean bill of health when MRI tests had shown that I'd had no organic reason behind my disassociation. It was then the realization hit me that my problems were caused by a cycle of self monitoring and related anxiety.

Well that should have been the end of DP, but it wasn?t. I feel like I'm in control when I?m monitoring, regardless of whether the act of monitoring is causing the symptoms which perpetuate it. Letting go of the monitoring would be like letting go of the wheel, allowing the vehicle to choose its own path - most probably off into the woods and into a tree.

I know this wouldn?t be the case, but letting go brings with it what I perceived to be a large element of risk. There?s a rickety old bridge between my current existence - a place of solitude, and the land of the connected and 'normal'.

Stepping out of my unbearable but well known environment could both plunge me into a world where I am falling and thrashing without control, or it could also be the first step to recovery and my ticket out of this madness.

Why is it so hard to let go. I have never befriended depersonalization, fog and confusion but it?s the only thing I?ve known over the last 9 years.


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## nemesis (Aug 10, 2004)

I've never felt more connected and filled with joy than the moment (and subsequent 30 minutes) after receiving a clean bill of health when MRI tests had shown that I'd had no organic reason behind my disassociation. It was then the realization hit me that my problems were caused by a cycle of self monitoring and related anxiety.

Well that should have been the end of DP, but it wasn?t. I feel like I'm in control when I?m monitoring, regardless of whether the act of monitoring is causing the symptoms which perpetuate it. Letting go of the monitoring would be like letting go of the wheel, allowing the vehicle to choose its own path - most probably off into the woods and into a tree.

I know this wouldn?t be the case, but letting go brings with it what I perceived to be a large element of risk. There?s a rickety old bridge between my current existence - a place of solitude, and the land of the connected and 'normal'.

Stepping out of my unbearable but well known environment could both plunge me into a world where I am falling and thrashing without control, or it could also be the first step to recovery and my ticket out of this madness.

Why is it so hard to let go. I have never befriended depersonalization, fog and confusion but it?s the only thing I?ve known over the last 9 years.


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## rob (Aug 22, 2004)

look - we only started self-monitoring BECAUSE we got dp - therefore self-monitoring is not the cause of dp, merely a symptom

I mean, I never used to monitor my perceptions until this cataclysmic (sp?) change came over them when my dp started

dp/dr is an illness - when we are ill it is only natural that we monitor ourselves to see if we're getting better - usually with an illness (like flu say) the symptoms gradually subside until that occasion when we monitor our condition and suddenly realise we're well again - hey my cold is gone - yippee

once the condition is gone, so the need to self-monitor goes with it..

I think people who are cured of their dp probably have no idea why it went away but notice that they no longer need to monitor their mental state so much and, seeking an explanation for their cure (and possibly the illness itself) wrongly attribute their reduced need for self-monitoring as the cause of their well-being

we're just ill - shit happens and for a lucky few shit goes away of its own accord

rob xxx


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## rob (Aug 22, 2004)

look - we only started self-monitoring BECAUSE we got dp - therefore self-monitoring is not the cause of dp, merely a symptom

I mean, I never used to monitor my perceptions until this cataclysmic (sp?) change came over them when my dp started

dp/dr is an illness - when we are ill it is only natural that we monitor ourselves to see if we're getting better - usually with an illness (like flu say) the symptoms gradually subside until that occasion when we monitor our condition and suddenly realise we're well again - hey my cold is gone - yippee

once the condition is gone, so the need to self-monitor goes with it..

I think people who are cured of their dp probably have no idea why it went away but notice that they no longer need to monitor their mental state so much and, seeking an explanation for their cure (and possibly the illness itself) wrongly attribute their reduced need for self-monitoring as the cause of their well-being

we're just ill - shit happens and for a lucky few shit goes away of its own accord

rob xxx


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2004)

I prefer to think that it's an illness caused by too much stress/anxiety/self-observation.

It's positive.

It can be cured.

Cyn xxx


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2004)

I prefer to think that it's an illness caused by too much stress/anxiety/self-observation.

It's positive.

It can be cured.

Cyn xxx


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2004)

I?m not saying that people can CURE themselves by focusing outward.

But...I promise that you can KEEP your dp by continuing to self-monitor.

Peace,
J

p.s. And Rob my love, I know precisely what was sourcing my dp...took a long time to find it, but once I did, similar thoughts/actions would almost produce DP on demand! Different for everyone, of course.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2004)

I?m not saying that people can CURE themselves by focusing outward.

But...I promise that you can KEEP your dp by continuing to self-monitor.

Peace,
J

p.s. And Rob my love, I know precisely what was sourcing my dp...took a long time to find it, but once I did, similar thoughts/actions would almost produce DP on demand! Different for everyone, of course.


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## rob (Aug 22, 2004)

Janine, I take your point.

It would really help me if you could tell me in precise terms what the source of your dp was - not because I'm nosey (although I AM curious) but because I want to know the sort of thing I should be looking out for.

love

rob xxx


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## rob (Aug 22, 2004)

Janine, I take your point.

It would really help me if you could tell me in precise terms what the source of your dp was - not because I'm nosey (although I AM curious) but because I want to know the sort of thing I should be looking out for.

love

rob xxx


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## grant_r (Aug 25, 2004)

I tried this "catching myself when I think about myself" thing today, but it's SO HARD! I know it's working, because I'm already optomistic about it and more positive overall, but it'll take a long time to learn how to distract myself, especially during boring classes. I know it'll work though. I have confidence, and that's half the battle right there.

-Grant with an "R" :wink:


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## grant_r (Aug 25, 2004)

I tried this "catching myself when I think about myself" thing today, but it's SO HARD! I know it's working, because I'm already optomistic about it and more positive overall, but it'll take a long time to learn how to distract myself, especially during boring classes. I know it'll work though. I have confidence, and that's half the battle right there.

-Grant with an "R" :wink:


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2004)

My derealization was brought about by a huge panic attack. Zoloft and the occasional Xanex helped me to get back on track. After I calmed down a bit, I was able to work on distracting myself and cognitive behavior.

I agree that the dr wasn't caused by self observation, but when I forced myself to get on with my life, go for walks and breath the fresh air and repeat possitive affermations, it was extreamly helpful and gave me relief. I believed early on, through therapy, that this was very treatable and being a post partum illness, figured it was going to eventually fade away. IT DID!!!

I feel like I could trigger a panic and derealization if I wanted. (like, right!) I still have to fight the self monitering. I still have limitations. I can't drink caffeine. I need a lot of good sleep. I need to not got too overwhelmed with things. I need to say "no". I still need to take Zoloft.

I'm telling you, I was a really bad case! When this hit me with a ton of bricks, I couldn't eat, sleep...nothing! I was truely a mess and had to care for a new baby! My dh was home for 2 weeks and took care of me and then I HAD to get it together, for the sake of the newborn and my other two kids. It was the hardest thing I've ever went through!

It was like baby steps. One day I got out of bed and made scrambled eggs. (my brain felt scrambled!) I could hardly focus long enough to complete a task. Even just trying to remember what I was doing long enough to get butter, or an egg. Frustrating!!! But I was determined!

I was to afraid to venture to far but did go out on the porch for daily breaths of fresh air and the healing enviroment of the outdoors. (We live in amongst the trees so it's very green and inviting). I eventually was able to go for walks. It felt wierd, as everything does when you are suffering with derealization, but I was told this would help so I did it. I felt horrible so I would just repeat "I am getting better" over and over, so to not keep thinking about how awful I felt.cv

I also quit eating any and all sugar. I've stayed far from this today and have cravings beyond belief. But I was so desperate to get relief that I would have done anything!!! (you know I was sick if I stopped eating sugar!)

Rob, I wish there was an easy answer. Gawd, how I wish. But I do think that Janice is hitting a really good point here. I know when I though I wasn't going to get better and started ruminating about it over and over, questioning endlessly, I would feel much worse. Then, I might have a therapy appt. and my therapist was so upbeat about my prognosise, I would leave feeling 50% better!!! Therapy was very healing for me!!!

Carla


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2004)

My derealization was brought about by a huge panic attack. Zoloft and the occasional Xanex helped me to get back on track. After I calmed down a bit, I was able to work on distracting myself and cognitive behavior.

I agree that the dr wasn't caused by self observation, but when I forced myself to get on with my life, go for walks and breath the fresh air and repeat possitive affermations, it was extreamly helpful and gave me relief. I believed early on, through therapy, that this was very treatable and being a post partum illness, figured it was going to eventually fade away. IT DID!!!

I feel like I could trigger a panic and derealization if I wanted. (like, right!) I still have to fight the self monitering. I still have limitations. I can't drink caffeine. I need a lot of good sleep. I need to not got too overwhelmed with things. I need to say "no". I still need to take Zoloft.

I'm telling you, I was a really bad case! When this hit me with a ton of bricks, I couldn't eat, sleep...nothing! I was truely a mess and had to care for a new baby! My dh was home for 2 weeks and took care of me and then I HAD to get it together, for the sake of the newborn and my other two kids. It was the hardest thing I've ever went through!

It was like baby steps. One day I got out of bed and made scrambled eggs. (my brain felt scrambled!) I could hardly focus long enough to complete a task. Even just trying to remember what I was doing long enough to get butter, or an egg. Frustrating!!! But I was determined!

I was to afraid to venture to far but did go out on the porch for daily breaths of fresh air and the healing enviroment of the outdoors. (We live in amongst the trees so it's very green and inviting). I eventually was able to go for walks. It felt wierd, as everything does when you are suffering with derealization, but I was told this would help so I did it. I felt horrible so I would just repeat "I am getting better" over and over, so to not keep thinking about how awful I felt.cv

I also quit eating any and all sugar. I've stayed far from this today and have cravings beyond belief. But I was so desperate to get relief that I would have done anything!!! (you know I was sick if I stopped eating sugar!)

Rob, I wish there was an easy answer. Gawd, how I wish. But I do think that Janice is hitting a really good point here. I know when I though I wasn't going to get better and started ruminating about it over and over, questioning endlessly, I would feel much worse. Then, I might have a therapy appt. and my therapist was so upbeat about my prognosise, I would leave feeling 50% better!!! Therapy was very healing for me!!!

Carla


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2004)

I just re-read and there are so many type-0s. I meant to say that I have STRAYED far from not eating sweets. In other words, I've been a sweet tooth junkie these days!!! I'm not sure why but I'm worse than ever and have really gained alot of weight. But, I have my mind and that is more important by far!!!

Carla


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2004)

I just re-read and there are so many type-0s. I meant to say that I have STRAYED far from not eating sweets. In other words, I've been a sweet tooth junkie these days!!! I'm not sure why but I'm worse than ever and have really gained alot of weight. But, I have my mind and that is more important by far!!!

Carla


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## DM (Aug 12, 2004)

Hi Janine, thnx for the good work! Anyway - can you tell me one thing. Although I have beaten DP/DR and I completely agree with everything what you say - I still have slight DR and raging thoughts in the morning.

It takes me an hour of watching news, calling other people etc. etc. All the 'focus outwards techniques' to get grounded. Why is it so hard in the mornings? Did (or do) you have the same? Do you have a morning ritual?

Thnx for your advice in advance :wink:


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## DM (Aug 12, 2004)

Hi Janine, thnx for the good work! Anyway - can you tell me one thing. Although I have beaten DP/DR and I completely agree with everything what you say - I still have slight DR and raging thoughts in the morning.

It takes me an hour of watching news, calling other people etc. etc. All the 'focus outwards techniques' to get grounded. Why is it so hard in the mornings? Did (or do) you have the same? Do you have a morning ritual?

Thnx for your advice in advance :wink:


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