# sense of self



## voidofform (Jan 31, 2005)

hi, i'm not dp/dr myself, but i am really trying to understand it.

though i did get myself into a state when i was really stressed and having a bad reaction to SSRIs, where i felt the whole world was a movie, and that i didn't trust myself, because i felt i no longer had no emotional stake in my life since the SSRIs were turning every emotion i felt into anxiety, including hunger for some odd reason. anyway i cold turkeyed off them (not so nice), and fixed some stressors in my life and life went on. (was this some mild form of dp?)

anyway, i'm really confused by the term "sense of self", and in particular the descriptions of those suffering from dp as having lost theirs. i've struggled for ages trying to pin down what "self" is, and what i've settled on, is that self is my thoughts and my awareness.

what i've also noticed is that when i get really engrossed in a project or a movie or whatever - my sense of self and time and independant thought disappears. i lose myself in the flow. of course i only notice that i lost myself when i find myself again. and its a wonderful feeling, being at one with something interesting, and is infact probably the characterisation of hapiness for me.

which is where i'm somewhat confused about dp. if i understand it correctly, the dp state seems like a hyperawareness of self, growing more and more distorted and distrusted by the constant focus in the same way that words once stared at long enough look as if they aren't spelt correctly, or are even recognisable. please correct me if i'm on the wrong track here.

is the described loss of self, perhaps better described as a sense of loss of familarity of self, than an actual loss of self, since at least by my definition of "self" a loss wouldn't be noticable, due to no "self" left to observe the loss?

hope i'm not asking a too stupid question.


----------



## ret (Aug 10, 2004)

Why are you trying to understand it if you don't have it yourself?

Just curious...

To answer your question, it's really hard to describe I'm not eloquent enough to at the moment sorry (too much much crap going on in my head). Someone else will answer your question.


----------



## voidofform (Jan 31, 2005)

- trying to make sense of my own little experience (above)

- in see my own traits reflected very strongly in many of the people in this place (abstract, introspective, obsessive, perfectionist, somewhat narcissistic). i wonder why, if i'm so similar, just why i'm not dp'd right now. i wonder what is so different about my approach to life or physiology or whatever.

- i like to help if i can.

- intelluctual interest. the human psyche is one of my fav subjects to lose myself in.

- boredom - stuck in bed for 14 hours per day for medical reasons.


----------



## Guest (Feb 13, 2005)

Well with me, my consciousness is fully intact, I am thinking and fully aware of my thoughts. But, I'll look at my hands and it is like they aren't a part of me. My emotions seem distant, like I can't actually remember what it is to be happy or sad, what they feel like. It will be a beautiful day, and I know that it is a beautiful day, but I can't feel it.

You know what, it's damn hard to describe. I can think, but the things that make me myself (emotions, spontaneous thinking, even my own body) seem distant. You can look in a mirror, and it's like you are looking at someone else.

oh, I don't know


----------



## Guest (Feb 13, 2005)

for me its my sense of reality is bad like things look very foggy and its like being in a dream state of mind with an overly conscious mind


----------



## bat (Aug 18, 2004)

it's like you're totally aware of the planet you stand on and the meaningless eternity surrounding it. at the same time you're totally lost in it as thats where you are standing. it's heightened awareness of the meaningless of everything and the nothingness of self i suppose coupled with intense fear and awareness that there is no escape from this even in(especially in) death. 
because it's so intense and all consuming i find it difficult to convey it to people. when in a bad state i say to the people i love that it's like a bad acid trip that i'm scared isn't going to end


----------



## gem (Aug 10, 2004)

I do not believe any question is stupid. I have a question for you. You mentioned you are in for many hours due to medical reasons, usually when one is ill they will go to a place where they can be with others who have an illness like the one they have, why would you pick here? It is okay of, I just wondered why.

gem.


----------



## voidofform (Jan 31, 2005)

i still go to the relevent forums if i need technical information. but no other reason. only anxiety and depression lies down the path of dwelling there. i found to my detriment that focussing on one's insolvable problems is the recipe for depression.

focussing outwards may be the answer for you, it certainly is the answer for me.

i guess i originally got here through looking for a way to escape my own head. quickly enough i found out that DP is the opposite of the pleasant mental holiday that i first imagined it to be, but i'm still fascinated to be here. i am learning so much about myself.

another probably silly question: is there anyone here who sees any value in being DP'd?

(thanks for putting up with me btw)


----------



## Guest (Feb 14, 2005)

voidofform said:


> another probably silly question: is there anyone here who sees any value in being DP'd?


well, my gut reaction is to scream "NO!", but it's actually quite funny. I used to be a very, very over the top shy person, but I've actually improved in social situations. At first I was terrified of meeting up with people after DP set in, but after visiting an old friend, DP for some odd reason made it so easy to stop obsessively ruminating over whether i'll seem stupid if i say one thing or another. Talking crap came easier.

And, while I'm slowly crawling my way back to normality (very, very slowly), I find I'm actually learning quite alot about myself, my mind, etc. I've had to learn to slow down and to relax. I had anxiety before, but I always ignored it (even though it was uncomfortable). DP has made me stop and look at myself, and just say "fucking calm down will you? life is not a race, etc".

But don't get me wrong, DP is fucking horrible and one of the worst things that has ever happened to me, but these are the few positives I've found.


----------



## jft (Jan 10, 2005)

Void. You are right in your situation, whatever your fourteen hours is about, and ours, in that looking outward is the key.

In terms of self it is almost a true irony in that the very busy who can never slow down find solice and "self" in focusing inward at "self" retreats, and we here find a need to focus outward and keep busy.

I do not know why this is. Something has gone awry with us. But I agree that the times when "I am in the flow" as you put it is when I am most connected to life. I am not even remotely thinking about "self" when in this mode...I am jsut experiencing life.

I do not know how to define self, even though I took two courses in it at university. But I do know that I would bet my Chevy truck that my pioneer great grandparents with no education and no time on their hands had a better sense of it than me.

jft


----------



## voidofform (Jan 31, 2005)

i had a semi lucid dream this afternoon, where i dreamed i purposely brought dp and seconds later dr on myself. its almost as if part of me is willing this to happen.

its as if my brain wants "out" bigtime one way or another.

i know intellectually that this isn't the right way to do it. this is the road to hell.

i shouldn't be here.

moth to the flame.


----------



## Depersonalized (Feb 11, 2005)

voidofform
I can see some value of being in a DP state, it uncovers the sweet dellusion of life you privously had. It's like getting connected to an endless flow of information which we are unable to comprehened.

What if DP is real and life isn't ? What if we could just accept DP as a normal function of our brain at a different level? There can be a lot of *what ifs*, thats another thing I hate about DP

DP might be also an introduction to the post mortem world, if such exists.


----------



## Guest (Feb 17, 2005)

Depersonalized said:


> voidofform
> I can see some value of being in a DP state, it uncovers the sweet dellusion of life you privously had. It's like getting connected to an endless flow of information which we are unable to comprehened.
> 
> What if DP is real and life isn't ? What if we could just accept DP as a normal function of our brain at a different level? There can be a lot of *what ifs*, thats another thing I hate about DP
> ...


I actually have that view. I've calmed my DP to the point where I accept it as my life and I don't expect it to be ever otherwise. I can see straight through people to the core of their intentions, straight into their personalities and I find everyone predictable after minimal observation. I find that DP has many of these benefits as long as you don't drive yourself insane over it, or even lose confidence that DP doesn't make you insane. After finding out today that I'm a narcissist because I have DP, I went a little crazy for an hour or so accepting it, mainly because I have told myself through the mask that I am absolutely not someone who is full of himself. But hey, it all pays off in the end. I can use my deeper insight for the good of others, warn people about the results of their actions, give people advice. It's not such a horrible thing.


----------



## Guest (Feb 17, 2005)

> I can see straight through people to the core of their intentions, straight into their personalities and I find everyone predictable after minimal observation.


You are definitly a narcisist.


----------



## voidofform (Jan 31, 2005)

musashi, it doesn't sound like a very stable acceptance. on one hand you admit to it, but on the other you still see yourself as superhuman. maybe a small amount of pride over your perceptive skills is justified, but like mr utah indicates, your manner seems a touch overinflated.

the thing with narcissism is that it's insidious, you can't see it when your in it. if you could see it, it wouldn't be a _false_ ego after all.

the reaction i had when i found out about narcissism, and saw myself mirrored in the description, was to be sent reeling, i totally overreacted and throw the baby out with the bath water. i could no longer have any self esteem, because i couldn't trust that any positive self judgement had any basis in reality. these days i have recovered a bit of self esteem. i still don't quite know how much of my current level of self esteem is justified or not, but it seems not totally out of control now.

i see it as yet another symptom of black and white thinking. a sense of self that is either ALL good or else its ALL bad. the healthy way i think of dealing with it is to strive for a balance, remembering that everyone is a combination of strengths and weaknesses.


----------



## Guest (Feb 17, 2005)

Voidofform: same thing happened to me... realised I was markedly narcissistic and BOOM, my entire belief structure came tumbling down.

On the one hand it was good, because I can see I was an unbelievable asshole (I had so many intellectual justifications for my superiority which I would throw out to anybody who would listen) and I can see that now.

I was so opinionated but wrong about almost everything. Now I can see that, it's hard to build myself up from scratch as a better person.

I also have a lot of difficulty believing in myself and my ability to make correct decisions.

After this I found myself in a high stress situation where very weighty decisions had to be made. Decisions I could not bring myself to make. Self doubt and anxiety ran amok and then...

...HELLO DEPERSONALISATION.


----------



## Guest (Feb 17, 2005)

voidofform said:


> musashi, it doesn't sound like a very stable acceptance. on one hand you admit to it, but on the other you still see yourself as superhuman. maybe a small amount of pride over your perceptive skills is justified, but like mr utah indicates, your manner seems a touch overinflated.
> 
> the thing with narcissism is that it's insidious, you can't see it when your in it. if you could see it, it wouldn't be a _false_ ego after all.
> 
> ...


It's actually quite a passive acceptance. I don't really think about it until I put myself up to the task of making sense of it. Eh what can I say, I like to be optimistic, and if this horrible thing isn't killing me, it may as well be helping me in a way I should be appreciative of.

You say I can't see it when I'm in narcisism... but having DP, I always see myself as an outside observer, so I recognize it very easily. Often times, this makes me come off as a hypocrit to people. But then again, I usually do consider myself to have a false ego because I don't exactly know who I'm defending when I get insulted.

I was very upset with myself today after finding about the narcissism factor, I was panicked for about an hour, thinking about how terrible I must be to be the way I am, to pray every night to God only for him to help me and no one else because I can help others if he helps me out of this first. It really sucked to find out about my own self-absorbance, how my entire perspective of reality is based off how I wish to be perceived by others and how I wish only the best for myself. It's a powerful thing to find out that one is not perfect, which I am not claiming I am, but once again, I like to be optimistic.

Yeah, black and white thinking is a little on the dangerous side, but it gets things done at least, I think. I thought my whole life was just some unique growing of awareness, growing of understanding. When I started off questioning reality once I got depression for a few years at first, I was highly cynical. Then once DP set in, I had an entire new perspective on the world which I considered higher than the prior. And then there's still that urging inside me to not stop until I understand everything I possibly can, something which will likely be the end of me. In learning about the very concept of DP, that was just the applied string theory for my situation, it united everything I had experienced and allowed me to express it in my thinking in a direct way. But I don't consciously think with words too often, so over-thought isn't the case, but it used to be. I'm passive with DP and I just see the world with a whole new set of sunglasses glued to my head.

But you know what, I'm just 16, what do I know. I have a whole life ahead of me, and that's that. A life I'll be too busy trying to understand than trying to live.

* My extreme optimisim comes from my insecurity about being a narcissist- a sort of coping mechanism, because negativity will make me throw a fit about my situation.


----------



## Guest (Feb 18, 2005)

Well, for me, my experience was like this: it's as if my personality had split into two entities, my "Self" which was my consciousness, my "train of thought", if you will, and my "self" which was something subordinate, running on a kind of auto-pilot, not under my direct control, kind of doing its own thing.

I don't know if that helps you, just thought I'd share.


----------



## kenc127 (Aug 10, 2004)

clouds

you described that well. I followed the same pattern, and here I am. 
I have an idea of how to begin to rebuild a less narcissistic self, but I'm am seeing no progress, and it just totally upsets me every time I think about it. I know Rome wasn't built in a day, but still. Seeing some progress would still be nice.

Ken


----------



## voidofform (Jan 31, 2005)

hmmm, i think i can guess the problem.

you (and me) are still looking for perfection. rebuilding the perfect self. its still a denial of reality. nobody can be perfect.

anyway one can never quite know if ones self image is true or false, i think because there just isn't an objective set of rules. everyone you talk to will give you a different opinion anyway of exactly how they see you. i used to drive myself crazy wondering how narcissistic i was being, because i couldn't objectively measure it at all.

how about rebuilding an imperfect self? accepting that its ok to be a little bit but not too narcissistic? even perhaps seeing some benefits and well as downsides to being a bit narcissistic. after all we all know how rough it is to live with rock bottom self esteem, and how confidence in a person, even if it is a touch inflated is a very admirable trait.

in the end is it all about being loved/accepted though? perhaps we need to convince ourselves that one doesn't need to be perfect to be loved.... (perhaps go focus your amazing powers of observation onto finding real world examples of people loving imperfect people?)

my 2c


----------



## voidofform (Jan 31, 2005)

jstewnyc, yes, thank you. that helps me understand a bit better.

is this basically a rejection of "self", a disavowing of sorts? sort of a psychological washing your hands of something you ("Self") can't stand to touch/experience/take responsibility for anymore?

issues of extreme self-distrust, self-loathing or fear force ones psyche to distance itSelf from itself?


----------



## Guest (Feb 18, 2005)

That's an intriguing way of looking at it, and it would explain a lot... rejection of the self, when the self is too much to deal with...

as for building myself up, I'm actually feeling good about it, while remaining humble... I'm planning on doing volunteering in Kenya (something for myself in the form of travel, but also directing my efforts outwards by helping others)... It's tough, but I'm learning balance.


----------



## kenc127 (Aug 10, 2004)

While I loathe each and every minute of this difficulty, I refuse to believe that I will emerge on the other side worse off. I think this difficulty we all face will somehow make us stronger emotionally and mentally; we need to go through this, not around it. Although going through it feels like we are just losing years off of our lives and feels like insanity and straightjackets are just around the corner. Feelings are very misleading, and this illness embodies that truth.


----------

