# Death



## Guest (Nov 18, 2004)

For many, many years, I have been consumed with the thought of psychological death. Insanity. Certain I have been heading towards that inevitable conclusion. DP/DR, along with anxiety at a level most people couldn't deal with for 20 seconds, let alone all these years.........

Lately I have been forced to think about the other kind of death. Reminded, I guess, that at some point I will actually die. 
Family history, cholesterol levels setting record highs, becoming older, Dreamer getting me started on cigarettes.......all of these things may finally be coming to roost as it were. Had some tests done yesterday, which led to more tests being scheduled. Maybe nothing will show up, but the fact is - I have been reminded. Reminded that one of these days the game will be up.

I do not think I am afraid to die. Not in the physical sense. What has me worried is the thought of dying like "this". DP'ed.
Maybe it's because I was raised Catholic, but for some reason I am utterly terrified that if I die while still DP'ed, I will spend the rest of eternity like this. Suspended between sane and not - forever. 
In hell.

I have been thinking more and more about this as the testing on my heart continues. I am also remembering when the whole DP ride started for me. Shortly after I "died" (car accident, heart stopped for awhile, etc.)
I continue to become more DP'ed, wondering if there is a bottom at all to this plummet.

I can't help but think there is a clue here for me. That somehow I should be able to plainly see why I became DP in the first place. 
I will in fact die one day. Is that what is causing me to be like this? The knowledge, rammed home by the car accident - that I do not have ultimate control? Did I put myself in such a precarious position, psychologically, to avoid facing the spector of physical death? Logically I understand that I do not have complete control over things and that I will die, make mistakes, etc. etc. 
Yet somehow there is a part of me that refuses to accept that. 
Is that why I am DP?

I wish I could stop thinking about death, psychological or otherwise.


----------



## Guest (Nov 18, 2004)

It was certainly a morbid obsession of mine for most of my life

(pausing to HOWL at your off-handed comment above..."and once Dreamer got me started on cigarettes.." LOL.....yes, she got ME started on them, too...now that you mention it...hmmm..."

See, if I was your therapist, I'd say something like this: it seems to me, Mr. sc, that you have been symbolically living in Purgatory since your "death" after the car accident. So...the only "places" left to enter would be heaven or hell. Can you follow your thoughts on that one?

Love,
me


----------



## Guest (Nov 18, 2004)

Hey SC
I was brought up catholic too & these are the types of thoughts I can't get out of my head either. I sometimes wonder if this is Hell or maybe purgatory & then some days it can be heaven. :?

I often wonder if I am here for a reason then what reason is that? Surely if I had a master he would guide me to my purpose.

If there is nothing but just this existence then that scares me too cause I think shit, what have I done with my life!

SC, do you think you are going to hell?


----------



## Magneto (Sep 18, 2004)

Before I even get going, this isn't in any way an attempt to start discussion on the existence of "higher powers". I am mainly concerned with death 

I was also raised Catholic, but decided on my own that there is no God, no heaven or hell etc. The reason I respond to this post is because I am extremely afraid of death as well, and have been since the first day I experienced DP/DR. I remember thinking "wow, I sure hope this isn't permanent". Lo and behold, almost 3 years later...  Like Charger, I ask myself 100 times a day "what have I done with/to my life".

If you don't believe in God, you are also, in my mind, not privy to beliefs such as "this is happening for a reason", "there is a plan for me", destiny, fate etc.

My question is, what is someone in my situation to think?


----------



## Guest (Nov 18, 2004)

Thank you for the responses. Although I guess I shouldn't have put in the bit about being raised Catholic 
:shock: 
My point is - I am being confronted with the possibility of a heart attack. That in itself doesn't particularly scare me. What spooks me, terrifies me.........is the thought of dying while still DP. As if - if I don't figure my way out of this mess before I die, I will have to spend whatever kind of afterlife there may or may not be.............stuck like this. 
THAT really, really scares me.


----------



## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Okay, I'm putting my thoughts on this. My thought is...if there is an afterlife, you will not be "stuck" like this.

Unfortunately a lot of religions include "scare tactics" to keep the serfs in line. My thinking is a God, an Entity, Madame of the Universe and Cosmos would not think of such a negative energy thought.

So, even casually speaking, you need to "mental floss" (Jimmy Buffett) some of those ideas out of your head. Why? Because it's driving you crazy and it doesn't make any kind of sense. Also, because I said so. 

Now, bad thoughts about dying stuck like this - *BE GONE*.

sc, please try to rest in the thought that the last thing that is going to be included in death is DP/DR. There are really a lot of other good theories going around about the afterlife. You might as well give them all a good fighting chance. :wink:

Oh yeah, mark me as scared about it too, just not the way you are! :shock:  :? :?:

Please exit this way :arrow:


----------



## Guest (Nov 18, 2004)

Sc,

Hi,

I am raised very Catholic too, and I was afraid most of the time by catholic rules, Hell, etc. But I still believe there is a God, so I have faith that when you are dead, you don't suffer. Suffering = DP, illness, etc. So I don't worry about that. I am sure the God (or name it like you want it too) help dead people, so I am sure I will not stay like that in the other world. I am very spiritual, and I know many aren't.

What is bugging me is how to stop DP in THIS world! (lol) 

Cynthia xxx


----------



## Guest (Nov 18, 2004)

I'm right there with you Cynthia=)
I'm Catholic as well but I think that it is actually helping me. It gives me some hope that maybe God will look out for me. Also, it's helpful since I am beginning to think that maybe I should let it go and give up control and self-monitoring since God will protect me and have his/her plans for me regardless of what I'm doing.

Does this make sense?


----------



## Kelson12 (Aug 10, 2004)

I'm more concerned that I will never ever get to enjoy my life here on earth. Right now I have little if any hope. 
I too am catholic...does anyone see a trend here??  I go to church every week and pray for God to bring me out of this drudgery and horrible feeling. :?

Take care.

Kelson


----------



## Guest (Nov 18, 2004)

You want is funny here?

When I was 12, I had DP one year long, and I didn't know what was happening.... I just said I didn't feel there. And I was crying each single day to God to get me out of this crap... every single day....

Then one day, I just began to be pretty busy at school, and people (my family) stopped to ask me : how are you today?? And I cotinued my school, had very good grades, had fun with friends... and.... it went away w/o knowing it. It just went away... I didn't woke up one day and said : wow it's OK! I FORGOT what it was. I forgot to take care of my Dp feeling. I must have put focus outward, I don't know.

The problem is : we aren't that naive, we are too much aware of this illness... we should think like a child and just forget for a while... maybe it could help us!

Cynthia xxx


----------



## Guest (Nov 18, 2004)

One connection re the Catholic background and dp is this: Catholicism teaches children from VERY young that "thoughts are things" - those kids are taught that not only are actions bad, but thoughts themselves can be bad.

Any religion that makes someone believe they must confess/apologize for thoughts is very likely to turn out some pretty neurotic people.

When children grow up examining their own thinking, they're already looking too far inward. We are responsible for what we DO, that can be good or bad, etc. But thoughts are only thoughts. If we feel like we need to monitor them, we're just a neurotic symptom waiting to happen.


----------



## Kelson12 (Aug 10, 2004)

Janine,

I know I have PMed you before about this...but did you ever think that you were going to change your way of thinking? Because right now, I don't understand how I am gonna get any better, ever. I just don't understand how my thinking is gonna change. No, I am not seeing a doctor right now, but am working on getting back in with one. But how am I gonna change my thinking process? I just don't get it!

Kelson


----------



## Guest (Nov 18, 2004)

Oh, good God, no....I NEVER thought I'd change a damn thing, lol...seriously.

I went into every doctor's office with one agenda: make these bad feelings stop. If you have to, medicate me. Just keep me cogent enough that I can still be halfway intelligent, lol....

DO ANYTHING TO ME to fix me. But you do it. I'm the patient and I'll just show up and describe it all to you in gorey detail until you finally get it, and DO something.

That was my plan and I was very diligent.

However, it doens't work. lol

Shop. The only advice I can give you is SHOP for a therapist until you find somebody you think you MIGHT remotely be able to trust one day. You won't trust him/her at first regardless..but look for anything, a glimmer, a look, a shared moment of connection, SOMEthing that makes you think maybe this person can really hear me well enough that I'll finally be willing to listen to mySELF in his presence.

Peace,
J


----------



## Guest (Nov 18, 2004)

Theres only one thing in life thats certain, and that is Death. I sometimes worry and think about it, but its really not worth it. Right now i have my physical health which im thankful for. Im really trying to eat healthier to and of course I work out. I think as long as I stay in good physical health i can overcome this thing. As far as " mental death" or insanity, I STILL to this day worry about that, like I wonder if a " psychotic break" can still occur. Ive been reassured so many times that this will not happen, but its like i can't fully believe it.

Im technically a catholic to and was raised a catholic. However neither me nor my parents have attended church willingly in like 3 or 4 years now. When i was in High School i had to go to a mass every now and than, but i mostly just zoned out and didn't pay much attention. Im not really an athiest, i believe that theres some higher power im just not certain of what that exactly is. I still pray sometimes and hope that one day my prayers will be answered.

I dunno though


----------



## Guest (Nov 18, 2004)

Hi sc

Well I can relate to this fear also. It is a fear, for me at least, of dying disconnected from my sense of self. It is even more frightening than "normal death" because the "me" is not even there to experience it. It is lost, mis placed somewhere, and with death it seems as though my connection to myself may be lost forever.

I have read in Haryy Guntrips excellent book Schizoid Phenomena, Obeject Realtions And The Self, that some people when they break free of the depersonalization condition will committ suicide so as to die with their sense of self intact. (not recommended BTW)

But I beleive it is important to keep in mind that our sense of "self" is simply a function of the "ego" and the ego is not the totality of the self. I try to often remind myself of this as well.

Jung believed, as I recall, that the ego was simply an appendage of the "self". And anyway I don't believe that the part of us that survives death is the "biographical ego" of our mundane existence, rather our true self is that spark of the Divine that animates our Being with Life and Conciousness. I believe it is that which transcends death.

Also I have read that there are disembodied spirits all around us and sometimes when we have experiences like your near death experience or when we undergo antesthesia for surgery, they will try and push our spirit out of our body to inhabit it. And even though they might not succeed in completely taking over our bodies they may nevertheless dislocate our normal connection to our "egoic" sense of self .

I read a book a while back about a woman therapist/exorcist who when all else failed in treating depersoanlization and other dissociative phenomena would perform an exorcism and in many cases the patients would be healed.

She stated that she didn't necessarily believe that her clients were actually "possessed" as she couldn't prove it in the "scientific sense" but some did seem to improve or be healed and therefore she would perform the ceremony.

john


----------



## gizmo (Aug 21, 2004)

no offense if you are Catholic, but purgatory is not in the bible.


----------



## Guest (Nov 19, 2004)

What an interesting thread.

I think that our spirit leaves our body so therefore the physical body including the brain is left behind which means no more illness. But whether we go to heaven or some other place or get reincarnated, who knows.

I didn't know purgatory wasn't in the bible. I thought that was what Holy Souls days was all about. Praying for the people stuck in purgatory - thats a catholic day.

SC you are just thinking way too much. Try & just take each thing as it comes.

Janine, I agree with you about the whole thought/catholic connection. I remember learning in primary school that its not ok to even think bad thoughts about someone let alone act on them. When you are child you believe that & by the time you are an adult is ingrained into your psyche. Its not until you fall ill & learn about the way the brain works that you realise that its a load of crap.


----------



## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Just wanted to point out that purgatory IS in the bible. Its in the book of Maccabees. This book was removed from the Torah after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, because it deals with a Jewish insurrection against foreign occupiers. The Jews were very politically savvy...I do, however, agree with Janine that watching one's thoughts is NOT a very good idea for obsessives....I'm Catholic as well, and to be honest, I think that many people dont have the capacity to watch their thoughts like the obsessive, anxious, hyper-intelligent people here. I'm one of five children, and other than my brother, who also has an anxiety disorder and is very intelligent, these teachings really dont bother anyone else in my family. I know because I've spoken to them about it. To be honest, I dont think its a teaching against individual thoughts- rather, its about controlling your desires, which ultimately motivate our actions. You cant have hate in your heart without eventually acting on it, the same with lust. In any case, I think its more about the spirit of the law rather than the letter- something many obsessive people have trouble grasping because in the end, its all about control. I know- that was me.

SC, your current state of mind has absolutely no bearing on your state of mind in the afterlife. I had this same thought when I was severely DP'ed, but no matter how you slice it, its not likely. If you are made of organic matter- which you are- when your (malfunctional) brain ceases firing electrical signals, well, thats it. If you dont have an afterlife, thats the end. If you do, well, no brain, no misfiring neurons, no DP. According to Catholic theology, the soul is imbued with all of the powers of the mind, but uses the body to "interface" with the world, so to speak. So you'll experience whatever your reward is with crystal clarity. If you've sown good things thats what you'll reap. Sown evil....well, I'm sure you havent. But this is a good time of life to figure out what you really believe in, and where you're headed. But don't worry about a DPed afterlife- if there IS mental illness after death, I have no doubt there are psychiatrists as well. Oh, wait, I think thats Hell....

Peace
Homeskooled


----------



## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

"But don't worry about a DPed afterlife- if there IS mental illness after death, I have no doubt there are psychiatrists as well. Oh, wait, I think thats Hell.... "

heeheehee...great humor where humor is needed.

Thanks, Homeskooled.

terri*


----------



## Guest (Nov 19, 2004)

I am not really interested in this topic, but since I am bored ( as so often),
I will give my two cents on it.

I don't understand why people care about an afterlife.
If there is an afterlife, we will find out soon enough.
If there isn't, we will never find anything.

I personally don't even want to find out about death, because all I want is live here in this world.

Besides it is very unlikely that mental symptoms could be carried over on the other side, because if there is an other side, it is different from what we have here.

So I guess all we have here is not something we will find when dead physically.

Since we aren't aware of the other world, it must be different.

Also, if we continue to live after our physical death, I don't understand how DP can exist then since we obviously won't have a body anymore, so there isn't anything we could feel detached from.

I personally think that you, sc, don't feel connected to this world to such an extent that you ultimately relate to an other dimension, which is inevitably the death issue.
If you could relate to the here and now you would not be interested in an other life (or life after death) cause you would not want to have anything else but the life you have now, and that is a physical one. 
Since you don't have a life, you worry about this non-life, and no life is death. But the worry is not brought to a halt arriving at the thought of death. It goes on like "but does the non-life (DP) exist in death? After Death? Always? Ever?"

It is the same with all those people who constantly dream about spending their imagined holidays on a tropical island. If they were satisfied with their lives, they would not want to escape to other places. They would want to live their lives instead of wanting to escape.

And even if satisfied people wanted to fly to a tropical island, they would not consider it a substitute, but rather an extension to their lives. That's just the opposite.

I don't intend to give any advice here because I don't have a clue myself, but , sc, I would say that you should focus on what you have instead of worrying about unreal things that you don't have.


----------



## DM (Aug 12, 2004)

Do not know if it will help you by any chance, but with me: I got DP/DR when I lost faith in total control.

Once I lost faith DP came as a sudden blanket to calm down the total panick of not being in control of my life. I remember it very well...Scary - and suddenly it was gone - erased by DP!

So maybe yes - maybe your crash was also a clash between your rationality and your feelings. Between immortality and the sudden awareness that you are fragile....

I personally lived (before I got DP) with a true American standard that a man is capable of controlling his own destiny...Well...Not totally true actually.... 

However, after the horror I learned in psychotherapy that the more confidence I gained, the less DP-ed I felt. Sounds academically very plausible by the way!

Hope this will help you and that your tests will show that you are healthy as a fish (Dutch saying :lol: )


----------



## Guest (Nov 19, 2004)

Academically, logically - yes, it sounds very plausible. And a direct response to the question I originally posed. Thank you


However.......I am stuck. Stuck in a (self-imposed?) purgatory of sorts, unable to move one way or the other. How can I, through long-term talk therapy.......become unstuck? DP/anxiety creates such an absolute triage state of mind, such an imminent 'Oh my God" type of thought pattern - it is difficult to consider sticking it out through years of slow motion talk therapy. My state of mind demands help - now. I am on the verge of dying - now. 
Yes, I have been this way for many years and haven't lost it yet (I don't think anyway), but still - every single minute seems like it will be my last. I often wonder how I would be had I been in therapy this whole time. Better, less DP'ed? I don't know. And I don't know how to pursue it in the future. Because I need help. Now.

Thanks everybody for your responses...........


----------



## Kelson12 (Aug 10, 2004)

SC,

I need help NOW too...but like Janine said, it is just a matter of clicking with the right person. When you find the right therapist, he/she will bring you out of your misery. Of course, with plenty of effort from your self! 
You know I am feeling horrible, as bad as I sounded yesterday in the chat. And still feel exactly the same. So I am right there with you. One foot over the edge with the other leg wobbling to hold me up. Least you don't have to sit through class tonight and tomorrow! Take care.

Kelsom


----------



## kenc127 (Aug 10, 2004)

Hey sc,

I think something like traumatic injury, such as what you experienced, always causes us to focus on our own mortality. Personally, and you didn't ask my opinion but I'll solicit it anyway =p, you are in good shape if you're shedding light on your health issues now. If there is a problem, then surely it can be addressed whether by surgery, medication or whatever. I know what you mean when you talk about this reasoning that death is getting closer. It plagues my mind at times. I once heard that "I'm going to die soon" type thinking is a result of PTSD. Anyway, hang in there dude.


----------



## kenc127 (Aug 10, 2004)

Double post.


----------



## DM (Aug 12, 2004)

Therapy doesn't always mean endless talking sessions...

I was put in a kind of Big Brother setting. Although talking was permitted in analysis sessions, 90% of the time it was a social experiment.

While cooking, while walking in the garden...

Every morning after breakfast 30 people gathered in a hall - and all the staff (at least 8 mind-fucking professionals). For 1 1/2 hour everybody was just put to the test - they knew everything about you, so they knew exactly what to tell in the group to break you (me in this case). And this was just the beginning of every single day...And everybody laughed at my DP...

Can tell you a lot more plausible explanations - however - once I was fed up, and told myself that death and insanity was a better state than DP/DR it started to disappear.

To do is to live. That's what I have learned.

DP is a dreamlike state of not doing. Of dreaming away things I should do but of which I am too afraid of doing. Tomorrow everything will be different. Not wanting to see things. Rationalizing away feelings.

Sounds very simple - I had the fortune to live in Holland in which institutions like this exist and are paid by insurance. But hell - most of the work I did in the real world. And psycho-babble - it works for delusions, but most of the work is work - in the field.


----------



## Guest (Nov 19, 2004)

Des,

I just wanted to say that it was a brilliant post... especially the following quote:

"To do is to live. That's what I have learned.

DP is a dreamlike state of not doing. Of dreaming away things I should do but of which I am too afraid of doing. Tomorrow everything will be different. Not wanting to see things. Rationalizing away feelings. "

You give me not only hope but also motivation.


----------



## Guest (Nov 19, 2004)

Just as clarification, and in hopes of getting more opinions........I "do".
Somehow throughout this whole screwed up ride, I have managed to do everything else too. Finished school, started a career, started another career, became a parent, bought houses, go on vacation in the summer, mow the lawn on Saturdays, have pets, etc. From the outside I appear to be a living a completely normal life. 
DP has not prevented me from having an apparently successful life.
I do not understand how I have managed to continue "doing", but I also don't have any reason to think that will change. The Life part of living is easy. 
What I am NOT doing is experiencing this so called so Life. Instead, I am only half present, if that. Going through the motions, successfully, all while stuck somewhere between sane and not. 
I have not let DP/anxiety keep me from living life. It has, however, kept me from being here while it is going on.


----------



## Inflammed (Aug 10, 2004)

Intersting topic...

My worst fear regarding death is that I would still feel DP/DR even dead...like in my after life...I'm afraid that even my soul is broken and will suffer by only being, like in this life.

Well...thats me =)

Thats why sometimes I only wish to be an animal and when I'll die, it would be the end of everything...nothing after.


----------



## Guest (Nov 20, 2004)

Woody Allen said,he's not afraid to die,he just doesn't want to be there when it happens.
Maybe that's what I'm trying to do........not be here so I won't have to experience death because I'm not really here!

I don't understand the concept of a spirit........can't touch it,feel it,see it?
where does this spirit reside?if it's to leave our body?

Personally as an ex catholic I liked the idea of confession.You could play up all week confess to the priest,say a few prayers and all was forgiven.Left with a clean slate until the next time...........too easy.

The Buddhists insist that our thoughts indeed have power.If this is the case ,I'll be going around and around that karmic wheel for eternity.

Terri,I applaud your sense of humour in dealing with such a delicate and morbid subject.
Actually why do they keep saying it's morbid.......it's like it's a given that it won't be any fun.

Sorry sc,I can't help you.
If I were a betting type,I'd put my money on there being no dp in the after life.I'd put my money on no after life too.
Which always makes me ask,"what's it all about then"?

:? oh Lord I wish I was a still a catholic or a something,I need a road map
but I can't read maps.I don't want to be one of those lost souls,like Nicole Kidman in the movie "The Others" :shock: 
:shock:


----------

