# Personal karma, group karma and world karma



## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Karma (how you think, feel act, what you say, how much you destroy, or whether you create) is said to work on many levels, from personal, to relationship, to family.....local, national, cultural, racial, religious....and finally HUMANITY's karma...

It is useful I find to see the causes of personal karma in the universal principles of ego enslavement, but clearly to work through karma there can only be individuals...ie. people who consent or dissent in one way or another.

In Buddhism it is said that Bodhisattvas, that is people who have a mind of generousity towards all living beings, either seek liberation for theirselves or will continually incarnate (if you believe in reincarnation....) until the last person has been "freed" from their karmic imprint, and found the liberation of Nibbana.

Now.....I just wondered whether self-liberation, ie. that doesn't use liberation for a collective purpose, is really possible. In the sense that "abandonment" of others spirituality....isn't that bad karma? I mean, put another way. If we are part of the collective and therefore share in the karma of the collective, in order to work towards improving our own karma, which is tied up in the collective, we necessarily must involve ourselves with others?

I mean.....for instance, even if you heal all the karma from your present relationships...you go through all your family and friends and try to heal the knots....what then. You are still part of the human race and have to accept that the causes for all the human problems: prostitution, child-abuse, murder, stealing sweets from the corner shop etc.....are somehow related to one through the collective unconsciousness? And the collective conscious.

Therefore how is it possible to improve on oneself? If you are automatically related to others through karma, national, cultural and global....is it possible to be karmically free???

Spirit....Cecil...?..you guys have been really quite lately....


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

What's your understanding of karma?

I don't have a very good understanding of it, but it seems similar to the idea of energetic debt. i.e. Tying up your energy in ways which draw on you or drain you in some way and that you have to "repay" at a later stage.

From what I understand, if you heal all of your personal karma (by breaking down your energetic connections) then it will become personal choice what you do from there.

Some people decide to use their personal empowerment to help others attain the same. Energy constantly evolves and eventually gets to the stage where it cannot evolve further without becoming a teacher of sorts - helping other energy evolve to the same "level".

That's what I'd like to do if/when I reach that stage anyway.

I guess we all share responsibility for how our planet and our species turns out. I think as long as you have compassion, you won't abandon other people spiritually. It just means you can be detached in the sense you are not personally tied to their outcomes.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Hi...

I don't want to make an embarassment of myself, but the way I think of karma is very hap-hazzard at the moment. I basically think of it as a here and now thing, all the blocks, ties, corruptions etc. I imagine a karma free person as full of grace....of being free, in the sense of having liberated Essential Beingness.

I also think of karma as being the emotional and feeling energies of each world, religion, race....in that way even television programmes have karma. Even people's names have karma. If they generate thought-feeling complexes on being heard.

In that way I find it hard to imagine being karma free unless it is a world-wide choice of renouncing the past and moving into the present.

---

I try to heal relationships with better communication and speaking from the heart. It appears that in order to be free from karma in the first-place you've got to respect the autonomy of others. Therefore in order to HEAL karma relationships, it isn't as if you can force it. You do your side of the story....equation....deal....then see what happens. It appears that the very act of resolving your side can make openings depending on the consciousness and essential soul availability of the other person.

So someone who lives as Essence will always open theirself to love and expressions....to kindness and respect.

People who are semi-conscious will sometimes open theirself to love and expressions of kindness with gratitude.

And those living a hellish experience will be totally unavailable to acts of kindness.

--

To me....karma free living means being open to love no matter where it finds its source. At the same time as allowing love, wherever it find its destination. It is the pure flow of consciousenss from one soul to the next, uninterrupted by discontinuity of agenda-self....towards peace, love and all that is good.

Love from Roz!


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

I think that the only thing we can really start to understand is how our own personal karma is running our own lives, there is very little we can do for other people and society until we have resolved our own issues. I suppose it is impossible to be totally free from the karma of the world but I expect by the time that we have dealt with our own karma then by that stage we would have learned not to be attached or overly affected by other karma so it damages us too much, then I suppose you have the choice of either going to live in a cave like a hermit, move to a monestary or go out into the world and do your best to try to heal it, which is why we should hold the genuine spiritual teachers in such high regard because they could easily have gone off to live their days in perfect seclusion but they chose to dedicate their energy to helping other people sometimes to the detriment of their own lives.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

I know it may seem obvious....but I don't think any personal measure of karma could be accurate. Only God or some higher thing could possibly know what is going on in each individual. So it is a mystery.

I'd like to know how to feel free, that is the main reason I want to know about karma to be honest with you. And I want to know how to be more compassionate....I believe it is the only way forward. What I notice is that...understanding group karma is useful to me individually, but I am clearly powerless to do anything about it, other than to accept it in myself....which itself is a very big step. That means accepting my biology and the way I act as directly linked to violence like hiroshima and aushwitz.

For instance, the group karma is like original sin. It's like a all the things inside the psychology which seeks to destroy if it means to personally gain. How can one stamp it out? Also....even if I did, I would still have to accept those demons in the world at large. I just wonder how man-kind can get out of this mess of destroying himself....and justifying all the wrong.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

I think the only way to prevent evil is to make yourself more conscious of your own dark side and take responsibility for it. A persons violent destructive nature is only usually very dangerous when it is in the dark of the unconscious, when you are conscious of it then you can channel it in other ways, but the majority of people dont see things this way, instead of looking inwards most generations of people project their dark side onto another group of people, for example at one time it was the Jews then the communists and now currently it is the Muslims who are the "enemy" who we can channel all our hatred and fear towards.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

...I think you have convinced me Pablo. Definately need to work on myself more and stop thinking about how it fits into the collective. If I need an "excuse" to help me accept my darkness, by all means I will remind myself of the fall. But no more than that. It isn't serving me to look at the "sins of society" it always causes anxiety.

After looking at interconnectivity a bit, I realise that life is truely out of ones control as a worldwide process of life, bubbling away on the world's surface, and beyond.

If I obsess over it....it will kill me. I need to take time out and just confront my own little demons without delay.

One of those "demons" is ungroundedness. For a change I try and change it for myself and my own wellbeing. I realise that I have been misled by certain texts which cite compassion as the only reason to do anything.

I wish others well, but I must find internal compassion, or be forever consigned to a personal guilt trip I put on myself about the state of the world....and how can I help the actions of those I'm interrelated with. It's necessary to focus only on the self's actions and what lies within as the solution to my spiritual path....i can't go on thinking about the bigger picture. But i realise that now. I had to plunge the depths of that method to see it truely is a dead end.

Thankyou....thankyou for helping me see this a bit better!


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

My view is that the most compassionate thing you can do to heal the world is to work to understand and heal yourself, which may sound a bit like a contradiction but the way I see it is that every child is born more or less pure and is born into a family and a society which then gives conditions them and transfers their issues and neurosis on them, so for example a form of self hatred may have been passed down from parent to child through the generations for hundreds of years and nobody in the family had been able to break the cycle, which is your family karma. On top of your family karma you have the issues of society so in the Christian cultures we repress our anger and sexuality as well as many other issues like negative self image, which is our society karma.

So if we can overcome our family karma and our society karma then we have achieved something outstanding with our lives and just our presence in the world is what will help heal it and if you can deal with that karma then you have achieved a great deal more then any of your previous generations ever did, you may even be healing hundred year old wounds. But the problem is that you dont get any praise or riches for attempting to deal with this karma, infact people in your family and friends may even resent you for it and it is probably the most difficult work to attempt and most people probably fail, but my view is that doing this may be the only thing truely ever worth attempting in your whole life.

I too was misled by all the people preaching compassion, what I now know is that emotional honesty is far more important than compassion, I think compassion will just flow when all of your issues are sorted out and there is no point trying to be compassionate if you are scared or raging inside because at some level people can sense how you are truely feeling anyway and it puts people at far more ease if you are true to your feelings rather than trying to be a way which a scripture or society has told you to be.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

...oh yeah.....I've been obsessed with compassion and has got me no where. I completely agree that honesty is the first step in ANY relationship. It is necessary to go from a place of honesty. I think compassion in many of its forms is inherently dissociated....don't ask me how I worked that out, but I think a lot of compassion involves what they call "emotional effort".

Emotional effort, trying to make youself have feelings for things, changing your feelings to fit it.....just generally showing compassion all hours of the day when you are actually really wanting to go home and sit with a lemsip.

....is known to cause emotional burnout in doctors, and interestingly, especially so in psychiatrists. They have to deal with patient suicide for a start. If people thought it was "ok" for doctors to be only mildly interested then doctors could get on with it more effectively. But there isn't enough "love" in the population. People go to the doctors to sit and chat to someone who cares. Well I do anyway. Maybe it's just me?

I've heard that karma is also about taking responsibility for things you can't change....and suffering for it. Like attachment.

As for processing societal karma, I have a head-start now because my partner is Asperger and when I confess all my neuroses to him....he just comes from a place where that isn't even a consideration. These karmas, anxieties about how one looks and or whether one looks ok naked (can you believe we have that anxiety? I doubt the ancients cared much about that and just got on with it)...need to be confessed at some point to someone.

I've been confessing things about my relationships and my neuroses, but not through a therapist. And it is enlightening to see how much time one actually spends worrying about things like breast-size, hair....how one compares to sisters.....whether one's cellulite is acceptable or not. Etc.

I'm not an apologist for being unattractive, but truely, there are more important things to think about from the perspect of actually being me, that is the woman inside. Like: am I enjoying my life. Do I really want to spend my time trying to be attractive when I could just accept myself as I am, hairy legs and all....and just get on with the act of Living?

Why do I think of myself as a function of other peoples' enjoyments? Why? When did I start doing that?

Perhaps I write too much of myself on here, but generally I find a lot of my karma is tied up in gender issues about how I am expected to act, or think and feel about myself. I would like to get away from a world where all people care about is how people appear on the external most surface. But the truth is that I am perpetuating the matter with my own anxieties. That is how it works. Women and men perpetuate sexual karma. It is thought that it is often women who raise their boys to be "big and strong....you must eat your greens etc". When it is a ligitmate manifestation of beingness to come into the world transexual, androgyne or just a bit effeminate.

All of this is personal and society based karma. For many people it is family karma as well....i know girls who were openly and constantly compared to their sisters in the beauty stakes, and it fucked them up to think they were a function of how long they had grown their hair, or who had the most pretty ballet shoes.

Don't men lie to themselves and think that women don't suffer for their appetites. Women walk in shoes that hurt their feet and back....women have to stand on spikes because they must have a gap between themselves and the earth. Women are not permitted to be women anymore but idealised fantasies of virginal sex....that has nothing to do with the vitality or destruction of mother earth.

Don't get me started. It would be interesting to see other "karmas" come up on this thread.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Well in energetic terms what you are describing as karma are all of your attachments to the world and the people, objects and places in it. i.e. What you have to do, what you have responsibility for, what's expected of you, what people need from you (and vice versa), what you believe you owe for the deeds you've done and the deeds your ancestors have done.

But all of those are just connections which "pull" on your own energy and keep it confined in a little box. There's no way you can break down all of that karma on a social or global level. The quickest and easiest way to break down that karma is to sidestep it. Sort of unhooking yourself from it. i.e. breaking down its connections within you.

From there you can choose how you want to affect the world but you don't have any "debt" or karma one way or the other.

Another important note is that you can't bare the burden for what our race has done in the past. We can take on some of the responsibility for it but if we blame ourselves its just another cycle of self abuse that we create for ourselves.

I think we can just see our species' history as a testing ground for new ideas. We can learn from our social and global past just as we can learn from our own personal past.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Hey...
I've been confused about karma for a long time. I've decided to stop trying to change my karma but to improve in meditation. It is said that, with a clear head and a silent mind that one act more considerately. So I need to clear my head and stop filling it with fears about personal and collective karma.

I notice that even thinking about collective karma causes me a great deal of personal anxiety about who I am and whether I will ever be loved in spite of ignorance/wrecklessness.

At Quakers, people talk about recognising that one is forgiven, ie of accepting peace. If one can feel can feel remorseful, forgiven and reformed, then surely their contribution to others could improve. I admit that I still feel I am not "saved". I still feel like a bull in a chinashop. And I don't really know what to do about it.

The people I know who aren't wreckless but are more considered don't act from autonomous need.....they are more considered in how they speak and act. They perhaps don't have the same tastes as others, or practise some form of self-discipline like getting up early in the morning and meditating.

I feel, on some level, that those people are "better" than me because I don't do that. And therefore that they are more deserving of God's love. Even though love is love, and is meant to be unconditional.

These judgements aren't serving me, and the karma way of looking at things does seem to make one accountable for everything bad that has ever happened.

In Kadampa Buddhism they even say that being ugly is the result of previously aquired karma. ....

A lot of the karma stuff is depressing. Although I see the virtue of being a nice person, of being kind, patience, caring and open....I don't really see the use of this karmic anxiety.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2008)

I apologize.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

"I honor the place in you in which the entire Universe dwells, I honor the place in you which is of Love, Integrity, Wisdom and Peace, When you are in that place in you, and I am in that place in me, we are One."

Namaste...


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2008)

I like a car which gets me from A to B.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2008)

Yeah, I agree Darren, although I don't borrow my ma's car anymore, I brought one of my own.
She's a beaut, and there is a bumper sticker on the back that say's "Honk if you like peace and quite"


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2008)

Aww you don't love your mum's car any longer? =( It's gonna go rusty and die =*( then you'll die cos your heart will become cold through the guilt... =*( then the whole world will blow up and will all turn to energy... =*( but that's ok because then will all be together =q *Bang head on desk till sense comes back*... lol.

"Honk if you like peace and quite?" lol; me likes =D


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Rozanne said:


> I feel, on some level, that those people are "better" than me because I don't do that. And therefore that they are more deserving of God's love. Even though love is love, and is meant to be unconditional.


I can relate to this. Its another form of comparing yourself to other people. For me its like "If I was really serious about this, I would be practicing X every day like person Y does".



> A lot of the karma stuff is depressing. Although I see the virtue of being a nice person, of being kind, patience, caring and open....I don't really see the use of this karmic anxiety.


I agree. I don't agree with the idea of Karma, or at least not my understanding of Karma. Really Karma is just another belief pattern. The belief that "I have done wrong, I must suffer". Its another form of judgement and non-forgiveness.

Instead I choose to see everything as a learning experience. Anything "bad" I do I can feel remorseful for, apologise for but I don't have to atone for it. That's the theory at least


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

I believe in dharma. I don't know about karma....maybe it was analogy they used to motivate people to take responsibility for their actions?


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

In the body meditations I do the whole purpose is that you enter your body and experience you own karma on a sensual level. I have personally experienced it in different forms but mainly as tensions and pains and as dark dense clouds of energy in my body which obstruct pure consciousness. This isnt how very many people would describe karma but i think that is just because they haven't been given the right exercises to really experience their own personal karma for themselves in their own body. I dont believe that karma is an invisible force out there in the world, it is energy within your own body which shapes just about everything you do and think and the only way to ever be completely free is to find a way to purify yourself so only pure consciousness is left.


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## Thomas Rymer (Jan 4, 2008)

I do not believe in karma myself, although we might be in agreement over some of the matters in other terms.

But do you understand karma? As someone from an individualistic society, you might be at a disadvantage, since the concepts of karma came from more collective societies. Going on this I would like to bring forth the following idea.

As part of the human race and other categorisations you have certain rights, duties and obligations to fulfil and perform. You are a part of the greater whole and by fulfilling your part you help fulfil the karma of the whole.

Whatever karma is to better understand collective (and perhaps personal karma) you might have to learn how to broaden your identity to include a more collective point of view.

As I said it is not my belief and I haven't delved into karma for quite some years and have forgotten most of it. But perhaps it might start something nonetheless.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Hi...
I have a very similar view on clearing the body Pablo. I recognise the internal darkness as related to ethics. There is a quote in the New Testament where Jesus says: if the eyes are good the body is filled with light. The people I know who carry considerable inner blocks (like my mother and certain friends) ....usually have a habitual way of seeing the world which sort of destroys their ability to fulfill their potential for peace. And this manifests in the body. I am clearing blocks at the moment using meditation on consciousness and awareness of blocks as areas of "density". That seems to be extremely effective. Personally, I carry most of my density right on the top of my head and this manifests and physical pains and pressures. The clearing started spontaneously about 5 years ago and has accelerated since. Nowadays, I often feel things "clearing" in situations like sending s text message to someone I know and wishing them peace....someone I may have previously "wanted" something from.

A lot of my blocks have lifted from speaking openly with my boyfriend about things. But funnily enough, there is one thing which really helps, I'm sure other's would think was "hocus pocus"....and its bathing with crystals. For some reason, it appears that crystals can energetically invigorate water and this energy can filter through the etheric and mental field of the body to clear emotional crap. It is an on-going process, and by its very nature, the blocks are often held "out of view", until the time to clear them comes. Then you think....gosh, I have so much density around my shoulders....it's like my big sister is pushing down on them. I need to clear that. And fundamentally, having a technique of meditation like Eckhart Tolle's entering the moment, or Raja Yoga....seems to work to bring the spaciousness around the blocks so they disolve not through a method of hatred/rejection...but through recognising the field of peace underneath. Eye-contact meditation also causes a lot of resurgence of blocks and anxiety.

I only recently learned that having a clear mind and practising allowance is the best form of compassion! So meditation is my root now, as with dealing with attachments, according to what Tolle has said about "personal story" and victimhood.

Karma of the collective kind....I assess more by behavior/attitudes, but what I'm coming to realise is that while it is useful to find out about common human problems (sex, drugs, ego, thinking I'm special etc) my real problem is attachment to stuff and making it a "problem" as if things shouldn't be as they are right now.

Slowly slowly, I'm turning around to the theory of the evolution of consciousness, and in that way it makes sense that things which are a problem now may not be as menacing in 50yrs. Or that things we were attached to 50 ago aren't so much a problem now (like gender expression).

I may be disadvantaged as a Westerner. They have done scientific tests which demonstrate the way the minds of people in East and West work differently in relation to form....but I think the essential rules of life are the same everywhere on this planet. It's up to me to change my mind and see interconnectivity and try to see myself in relation to context. Easterners do this easily, but it doesn't necessary prevent family problems or the like. If they have a female baby, they'll kill it in certain circumstances and that doesn't appear to be a process of acceptance. East and West have relative virtues and truths inherent in it. I don't like to think of my nationality as a limiting factor in spiritual growth although it is undeniable that culturally it is very important...and psychically it is very important. I reckon there are similar problems in the East in a different form.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Thomas Rymer said:


> Whatever karma is to better understand collective (and perhaps personal karma) you might have to learn how to broaden your identity to include a more collective point of view.


Certainly being an egotist/excessively individual has caused my ego great problems in life and relationships. I'm now trying to bridge the gap, but doing it in such a way which doesn't create more attachments is quite difficult...

One of the problems I've had is that I've always been a massively inverted ego....complete self-denial, constant complaining and unfulfillment....complete rejection of the norm....and refusal to join in. There were certain areas where I had positive ego, like mental abilities and psychology, but in my body/feelings, I've always been an invert with an inferiority complex which is hard to shift. The assumption that I will not be liked, ....or just feeling myself to not exist, having a massive hole in my core as if I didn't have a personality.

In a sense, I knew that identification with others on the level of alcohol and "being a student"....ie. joing in with the "collective mind" would cause me further unconsciousness.

This is explained by something Jung wrote about minds of groups, and how a small group will generally have an emergent mind which is "higher"....and a larger group (like a football crowd) will generally have an emergent mind which is MORE ANIMAL.

Now, looked at in this respect, observing the whole human race is a cataloge of nasty human survival which more often than not destroys its surroundings and the people in it. (unless they are included in the agenda of survival).

So identification with the context cannot come from a person point of view of "how do I fit in" to this human ego climate. If it did, the resultant personal mind would be lowered and there would be no chance of personal peace or integrity (unless you happen to be in a community who are always peaceful).

I....don't know where I'm going but anyway. More thoughts and considerations about life!

Perhaps I should go off and do something real...


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Due to the things written above about collective psyche, it is thought that any age of enlightenment or higher collective consciousness would have to start from a place of individual internal transformation. The lifting up of human rights and freedoms, but also just "awareness" of psychological problems, physical limitations and the frustrations of this existance, so that we can stop blowing each other up in order to try and satisfy our on-going agenda of suvival (power instinct).

...what is deeply ironic is that addressing the issue of consciousness is pro-life, and supports life on all levels. It could enable people to change diet and other things without being dragged down by repetitive issues of shame. And effect how people regard possessions and the acruition of more and more wealth "just in case".

The difference is that the survival would be for the whole planet and not just the good-looking, intelligent or capable people. It would be planetary consciousness.

The way I see it....if we don't give African's food, using a plethora of justifications, we don't want those people to exist. And if we don't include others for whatever reasons, we don't want those people to exist either....

It's the 1000 likes and dislikes. Yet we have all come into existance here and that is more special than any politcal hierarchies of power....or human judgment.

I know it's hard to live up to...but if we don't think globally, how can there be a future?

It's taking from one hand and giving to the other.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

In my experience the darkness and blocks in the body aren't as much to do with ethics on the more normal sense of the word but more to do with the residue of emotions/energy that was left behind when you have denied being your true self and denied the truth of what occurred in the past, so for example if you hold in expressing yourself honestly in a situation then whatever you denied will create a burden of information in your body where the denied experience is stored. For most people they are denied their true essence almost from birth so this karmic burden starts to accumulate almost straight away (also possibly from former lives but im not sure about this one). I think when Jesus talks about ethics he is talking about being true to your 'self'.

For me I have blocks mostly in my jaw, left of neck and left knee, all of which has helped me work out what my chief psychological issues are about because the jaw concerns anger, the neck emotional expression, the left side the softer emotions and im still trying to figure out what the knee block is all about. I think there are two ways to deal with the blocks either dissolve the blocks by letting them go in meditation or express the issues/energy which is held in the blocks out in the world. Many meditation teachers say that pure meditation is the only way to really deal with the issues at the deep karmic level they begin but I think working out the energy of the karma in the real world also works, so either way you have to let it go or work your way through it.

I agree with what you say about east and west, there are advantages and disadvantages to both and neither can really say they represent the better way of doing things but to get the best out of both worlds is what I am looking at. But what is important is seeing that us here in the west have unique problems due to our judo/christian karma which dont exist in the east so we have to deal with these problems first before we can really apply the knowledge of the east to us, which is why the guru Osho would always work with the energies of anger and sex with his western students but prescibe zen meditation to his eastern ones as each era and culture has its unique hangups and karmic problems.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Osho may have spoken truth but I believe things have moved on now. He said that women should do spiritual work through the path of lovingkindness and through meditation....

This is just a side issue I thought I'd mention, but this kinda stuff comes up again and again. Personally I find my ego entrapments resent a lot of the gender roles/sexual behavior lessons.....I want meditation not more anxiety.

I saw a site of a bloke recently who got into the Alexander Technique to shift long-term patterns in his body. He did laying down therapy every day for a week, around 12 hours a day! This shifted a block he had in his neck.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Your childhood sounds incredibly hard Rozanne, I think dealing with childhood wounding is probably the hardest thing anybody deals with in their lives and healing yourself is probably the most compassionate thing you could do for the whole world. Correct me if I am speaking out of turn but I get the impression from your posts that you have have a great deal more fundamental self awareness and sensitivity than the other people in your family, perhaps that is your original karma you were born with, but it could mean that you are more easily wounded but also you have far more potential in terms of healing and spiritual awareness and spiritual development. They say the greatest healers are wounded healers the ones who had to deal with and overcome the greatest obstacles.

Again tell me to go jump if I am speaking out of line but I get the impression from what you say about still not being able to deal with going back to your childhood environment that what you need is not to focus exclusively on the 'higher' spiritual life but you need to regain your own fundamental personal power. Perhaps I am just projecting from my own personal experience but when I fell into my own personal crisis I got heavily into spiritual traditions which focus on peace and compassion so I studied all the main teachings and gurus, but after a few years I realised that what I needed was to regain my own personal strength and power. The problem was that I initially thought this conclusion contradicted the spiritual traditions I was studying which focused on non egotistical ideas, but I soon realised that infact the power I was looking to reclaim was not some self centred ego strength but the power and energy I was born with and is my right to have. Without your personal power it is incredibly difficult to say NO in the way Erkhart Tolle describes, but I have discovered that this is exactly what is required to reclaim your self esteem and have enough strength to be compassionate.

How to reclaim your personal power is difficult but what I have found to work is a process called recapitulation. You may have heard me or Cecil talk about it a few times before but it is quite a simple shamanic purification technique originating from the Toltecs of Mexico which is designed to draw back all your energy from people and situations where it has been lost in your life, many regard it as the cornerstone of all Shamanic work and from my own personal experience it has helped me feel much more strong and secure in my relationships with people and I feel much more capable to say no and stick up for myself even though I have only been doing it a few months. Also where it has been particularly useful is in giving the negative energy of people like my mother and brother back to them and untangling myself from the issues they inflicted upon me when I was too young to defend myself properly.

Sorry this post is slightly off topic and I dont want to force anybody onto the same path as me as I realise that everybody has to find their own way but I just thought I would bring up the issue of personal power because it seemed relevant. If you are interested check out: http://www.shamanscave.com/articles/the_recapitulation


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Good to hear you've been having success with it Pablo 

By the way you guys are explaining Karma and clearing it from your body its very similar to the idea of energetic connections and clearing them through recapitulation. Really all of these practices are talking about the same thing just from a different perspective and as always, it doesn't matter which method works for you, just as long as you find one that works.

I'm really interested in the methods you are using to become aware of the energy in your body and how you clear it. Could you explain it or give me a link or some such?

I must admit that I am shockingly out of touch with my body. This is probably partially to do with the physical wound I sustained at a young age but also about trying to retreat into my own head in the face of difficult times while I was growing up and feeling unable to deal with it at the time.

I am aware of blocked energy especially in my neck and shoulders. I think like Pablo said the neck is to do with expression of energy, which I have a lot of problems with. Still in social situations I hold myself back from saying what's on my mind. Some of that is due to fear because I am still wary about talking about spirituality with people I don't know well.

The blocks in my shoulders are undoubtedly because of the responsibilities I take on that aren't mine and the burden that I believe I have to carry. I am becoming more and more aware that I am a very sensitive and empathic person to the point where I can 'see' other people's energy and I take it on as my own.

Recently after all of this drama I have been feeling down because of what OTHER people are doing. As though I have to solve their problems in order for me to feel ok. I've even been avoiding my supposed group of friends because I'm finding all of THEIR energies and interconnections and drama and bullshit too overwhelming. Blargh, how frustrating :/

Sorry that turned into more of a rant than I'd hoped for 

P.S. Pablo, as for your knee - the left side of the body is spiritual/intuitional/feminine as I'm sure you know. If my memory serves me well I think the knee is about humility. i.e. Metaphorically, bending the knee to bow or kneel before someone/something. So possibly something to do with emotional/spiritual humility?


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

CECIL said:


> I'm really interested in the methods you are using to become aware of the energy in your body and how you clear it. Could you explain it or give me a link or some such?


I've been writing extensive blogs on meditation and energy on Facebook today. If you would like to read it, please PM. It took quite a lot of time for it to settle in that I was writing openly about chakras and meditation on what is a "social site", but I'm at one with that now. (thanks to EFT)

I keep reminding myself that unless I am true about myself and my real interests - healing practises and meditation - relationships won't be completely honest. There is no reason why I should hide my interests in subtle awareness and spiritual healing.

You didn't speak out of turn Pablo. It is true that I although I am feeling better about this existance - I still have attachments like my mum, my hair, how many friends I have and whether I'm in a job I love. What people think of me etc.

I do think it is important to continue to heal those things though. As for my mother, recognising that the spiritual reality is she is an equal, I hope will help me. This evening particularly, something has shifted. It is undeniable that peace is increasing, and continuing to blame someone who has given me all the challenges I needed to become aware of energies....doesn't make sense. She is also suffering to a strong degree and is very trapped in her pain. I hope she is liberated from all of that.

With regard to physical appearance, I got in touch with a spiritual counsellor called Peter Sumner, who has a spiritual blog site called The Seer. He responded in detail to my problem and directly me to a deeper understanding of the teachings of Tolle and others. It will still be an on-going issue, but I think there is real meaning in those quotes and he helped me to detangle some mental concepts. Basically, he explained that the beauty, creativity and intelligence which really matters is actually all in the non-dual essense and that form temporarily reflects this beauty but always goes eventually. This helped me because I have come to recognise that there really is a beauty beyond form and it is more precious to me and my well-being than any sexual relationship or physical form I might take. Not to say that sex and life doesn't matter. But I am happy to be alive and that does matter more than how many hairs there are on my head. I need to feel fulfilled and happy above all and hopefully that will keep my body more healthy than it has been previously.

Social issues...... I realise the shame embarassment and other judgements of being different is more of a problem than anything. I'm now using EFT to try to deal with social anxieties which have nothing to do with being friendship or enjoying peoples' company.

I definately want to be an energetic/spiritual healer now I realise that it is what I find meaningful. This has been an idea for a few months but I knew it was necessary to be healed from ungroundedness/fear of life before I did it. Afterall, I cannot help people feel better if I have problems that haven't been met.

The derealisation improved a lot with my decision to give up unnecessary astral interests, and also through address fear/anxiety.

Learning how to be in the now almost instantaneously gets rid of the derealisation. So I am confident that with practise, Presence, and fulfillment can be a way of life, and I have nothing to fear.

....thankyou so much for being there to chat with over the last 2 years. It has helped me a lot in my journey. I wish you the best in your expression of life.

Om shanti


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

CECIL said:


> I'm really interested in the methods you are using to become aware of the energy in your body and how you clear it. Could you explain it or give me a link or some such?


My attitudes are:

Avoid trying to add. It is not necessary to add anything. Just recognise what is there. Once blocks have been dissolved light shines through. Someone who is spiritually experienced or empowered with soul-consciousness can heal you with peace energy. Until you have found those higher frequency spiritual energies and come out of astral energies I recommend trying to expose yourself as much as possible to pure love and consciousness - light of pure bliss.

There are two things which are essential to the dissolution of blocks. 1) awareness 2) love.

If you sit with your eyes closed and go into the clouds which seem to be clouding consciousness, or the blocks, something miraculous with happen - they dissappear. Just going into the negativity is enough to dissolve it. If you are in need of love awareness, use self-forgiveness affirmations to remind yourself that your core energy is love and that clouds only cover this.



> I must admit that I am shockingly out of touch with my body.


Just accept that. Some of us don't have a normal body-ego identification. That doesn't have to mean being totally ungrounded. Actually it is blessing because if you then find soul-consciousness it will be especially liberating. Grounding doesn't have to mean complete ego-id with body-consciousness and attachments. It can also mean just being in the Here and Now, and having clarity of senses.

Those are my thoughts on what you said.

As well as that, I've found the following helpful:

Bowel detox - happened quite by accident but caused massive shift in energy of bowels. Came from eating too many seeds! Not recommended for the faint-hearted. Apparently colonics are meant to be very good for the body-consciousness.

Crystal baths - very energetically purifying and beautiful expression of self-care. Candles, essential oils, followed by sensual massage with partner if possible.

Self-forgiveness practises. Brings a lot to the awareness about past, and helps destroy false ego also. Also enhances heart energies and love within relationships in a practical way. It helps change old patterns of destruction.

Eye-contact meditation with loving person is also very conductive to letting anxieties and blocks go. It can be disturbing as they come up but at some point you get a breakthrough of love-consciousness and peace, while being with another person. Turning the lights down a little bit and music might help to feel more comfortable, as well as sitting at slight distance, and remembering that eye-contact needn't take much effort.

Spiritual counselling
Being able to speak truthfully with someone who will listen and have compassion is very powerful. I say "spiritual" because there is a schism in psychological practise, really, and that is whether it is done from the point of view of spiritual development, or worldly attachment. Whether one considers self spiritual or not, having a counsellor who is suited to your path helps. My psychotherapist was addament that I must believe I am my body. This is true on the physical level but goes against my fundamental experience of myself as spirit, so I was a very disappointing patient for her, and my anxiety increased under her care, not decreased. It just wasn't suited to me. There are counsellors, like Pete Sumner, who are rooted in spiritual. And that for some people may be more conductive to growth. Not to say that a normal psychotherapy is bad, but it can cause a lot of friction between patient and therapist if the existential paradigm is different.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

CECIL said:


> I'm really interested in the methods you are using to become aware of the energy in your body and how you clear it. Could you explain it or give me a link or some such?


I use a method called Chaoyi Fanhuan Qigong http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yap_Soon-Yeong who is a full time energy healer, so the best way is to learn from him as he travels around the world teaching, I even think he went to Australia last year. But you can also learn it from books, which is the way I learned.

There two meditation techniques I use: a sitting and a standing one. for the sitting one all you have to do is sit on a stool and lightly place your attention on the lower part of your body/arse, then every time your mind wanders bring it back to the lower body. With the standing one you stand with feet shoulder width apart, hands facing the body but about a foot away from it at the level of your hips, bend your knees slightly and bring your consciousness into your body, then keep bringing it back when it wanders.

What is different about these techniques from other Buddhist/Taoist techniques is that after a while when you have got used to what you are doing you start to lose control of your body slightly in that your body starts to make cathartic movements, your arms and legs jerk about and if you really let go you start to make expressive noises and sounds, all of which is a way of the primordial intelligence of your body releasing energy and tension, there is no mind involved in any of it and is actually quite funny to watch. I recommend it and it fits in and compliments the Shamanic stuff very well I find.



> P.S. Pablo, as for your knee - the left side of the body is spiritual/intuitional/feminine as I'm sure you know. If my memory serves me well I think the knee is about humility. i.e. Metaphorically, bending the knee to bow or kneel before someone/something. So possibly something to do with emotional/spiritual humility?


That is interesting, I do have a problem with letting other people help me as I always want to do things on my own in my own way, thanks I shall investigate this further.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Pablo said:


> > P.S. Pablo, as for your knee - the left side of the body is spiritual/intuitional/feminine as I'm sure you know. If my memory serves me well I think the knee is about humility. i.e. Metaphorically, bending the knee to bow or kneel before someone/something. So possibly something to do with emotional/spiritual humility?
> 
> 
> That is interesting, I do have a problem with letting other people help me as I always want to do things on my own in my own way, thanks I shall investigate this further.


It's good to have that internal awareness that you have the innate wisdom to intuit your own path, at your own pace and in your own way, but recogising where people come into your path and why is also meaningful.

Someone who shows you their art is a servant to your needs in many ways. We all expressed different talents and trade our goods in one way or another. Of course claim back power, and don't prostrate in shame, but in acceptance of higher power, when the person is worthy of your trust (which you ascertain through intuition) and is offering something in the dual universe which is valuble for you. As a friend says: if the universe is trying to give you something, don't say no.

I think it is good to be able to submit, not in shame, but in trust. If I go to a medical doctor, I trust that - in medical terms - he knows what he is doing. That is a choice, I'm convinced that recognising people's gifts is the one true path, even if that person's expertise is in "your area". Recognising what is good....is good. If the person is trustworthy, they won't be making you prostrate in humiliation. And even if they do, sometimes that is a lesson worthy of experience too.

Power issues.....self-empowerment.

I would interpret knee issues in two ways. First bones and skeletal structure is meant to represent "father". So someone with a good composure may have had a strong father, and someone with a scatty physical appearance may be lacking internalisation of male element. Flesh and soft-tissue issues are mother (re: obesity in america is overcompensation of female element in male world).

Second - knee issues
Animal, moving fast (survival), being "flexible". - some thoughts on legs in general.

Unilateral problems - imbalance
If you had blocks in both knees that would have been different.

What are your parents like?

-----

My own alignements and interpretations:

I have a very soft body which isn't very well integrated, the structure of bones and muscle tone isn't strong. I see this as a lack of structure/masculine support. It isn't just a physical thing, but quite "psychological". Sometimes I am quite clumsy and cack-handed and fall up and down stairs regularly. Rather than hating myself for this, I find it quite funny!

Ankles - both blocked
Lack of grace and care of feet, need for DEEPER connection to earth.

Neck - thrust slighty foward
Trying to hard to get what I want, need to recentre in core and Beingness. Thinking too much. Too mentally absorbed.

Shoulders and chest - opening out a lot more since doing self-forgiveness. All started to crunch back into realignment. I believe the chest/rib-cage alignment issues had a lot to do with "Being normal" and honesty of heart.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Thanks I'll check those out when I get a chance.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Rozanne said:


> I would interpret knee issues in two ways. First bones and skeletal structure is meant to represent "father". So someone with a good composure may have had a strong father, and someone with a scatty physical appearance may be lacking internalisation of male element. Flesh and soft-tissue issues are mother (re: obesity in america is overcompensation of female element in male world).
> 
> Second - knee issues
> Animal, moving fast (survival), being "flexible". - some thoughts on legs in general.
> ...


The thing is that my right knee is fine and has no blocks at all, infact the whole right side seems to be ok, its only the left side where the blocks seem to be. In terms of how I am like my parents my Dad is completely work obsessed to the degree that he doesn't trust anybody to do anything for him so he likes to be completely self reliant, which is a trait which has rubbed off on me unfortunately, and my mum is very repressed in terms of anger an insecurity which has also rubbed off on me, but I dont want to talk about this too much on a public site or it could cause grief.

I agree with what you say about the neck and shoulders, that is where a lot of problems show up, if your neck is ducked or forward and shoulders slightly hunched that is classic defensive posture. I have this quite a bit.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

I don't think it's ideal to write on the net about personal stuff, like "family honour". However, I'd rather be honest than have false relationships (if I write on here I assume that family will read it and am ready to talk about stuff). That is a condition of all my relationships although it is a hard path and not many people like it.

IMHO, workaholism and insecurity are very common issues. It's not the fact that your parents are human that is the problem, I guess, but that they may have "hurt you". And writing about that is hurtful to them, especially since they may not have wanted to hear it directly. So it doubly reflects on their attitude. It would be nice if you could address it with them but it takes a lot of confidence. Their egos may not want to hear that you have suffered due to their habits.

I have been protecting egos all my life, including my own(!), and basically, I've had enough of it. It hurts but I know I have to at least try to hear the shit people reflect back about my ego. It's challenging but it is the only way to grow, sadly.

With regards your parents...perhaps you could say to them: I'm Xyrs old now, I have made the decision to not work as hard as you Dad. It just isn't me. Oh, and I'm not gonna repress anger anymore GEDDITT....

Only joking!


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2008)

:roll:


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Thanks....
Roz


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2008)

I did it out of respect for us both.


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2008)

Last edited by Im still the same person on Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:22 pm; edited 1,000,000 times in total


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2008)

Deleted


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2008)

Im still the same person said:


> Last edited by Im still the same person on Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:22 pm; edited 1,000,000 times in total


Whow... 1,000,000 times? lol


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Yeah I was impressed with that million edits, lol.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Are you secretly hiding "special powers" Greg? Must have good karma... :lol:


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Rozanne said:


> Are you secretly hiding "special powers" Greg? Must have good karma... :lol:


Yep, he is one of the Heroes and his super power is he can make a website reload and press the submit button again really, really quickly....WITH HIS MIND!!!


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Rozanne said:


> I don't think it's ideal to write on the net about personal stuff, like "family honour". However, I'd rather be honest than have false relationships (if I write on here I assume that family will read it and am ready to talk about stuff). That is a condition of all my relationships although it is a hard path and not many people like it.
> 
> IMHO, workaholism and insecurity are very common issues. It's not the fact that your parents are human that is the problem, I guess, but that they may have "hurt you". And writing about that is hurtful to them, especially since they may not have wanted to hear it directly. So it doubly reflects on their attitude. It would be nice if you could address it with them but it takes a lot of confidence. Their egos may not want to hear that you have suffered due to their habits.
> 
> ...


I have been protecting egos all my life too and i've had enough, although I wish I came to this conclusion when I was a child because all that protecting has damaged me far more than I ever imagined it would, especially holding in anger.

In a way I still have a false relationship with my family in that they dont ever talk about anything that is wrong and seem convinced that the problems I am having have nothing to do with them and the way I have been treated :roll: . It feels like I have been given the role of wastebin for the whole families negativity and a dumping ground for emotional problems, but I sometimes wonder if I took this role on willingly and agreed to it on some level. I suppose I just did what I thought was best to survive. But the thing is that they see no connection to the way I am and themselves even though I got all my problems directly from them, so in a way they are in far more denial of reality than I am even though im the one who is disfunctional. I often think im the only one who is sane even though in the world im the least functional out of all of them, but at least im not completely blind to what is going on internally and atleast I have a desire to tackle my problems head on rather than go on ignoring them.

The fact is that my parents wouldn't be able to take it if I was completely honest all the time about how I was feeling about things and they wouldn't admitt anything I said was true, so im on my own really, there is nothing I can do to get them to hear me until they have dealt with their own emotional issues, because our issues are the same really so there is no way of them hearing me until they have faced up to themselves. I did try one time to communicate directly with them but it changed nothing and the next time I saw them they acted like I hadn't said anything like I was just in a bad mood or something. So I have faced up to the fact that there is nothing they can do to help me anymore because I am dealing with all the psychological shite which they didn't have the courage to face upto in themselves, so in reality there is nothing they can do without healing themselves first. But what really gets at me is that im looked upon as the one who is 'ill' the 'black sheep' and the one who is made to feel like im some sort of freak but in reality im the only one honest enough to try to deal with the negative energy and issues which have been passed down in our family, perhaps that is my karma? who knows.


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2008)

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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

It's just the darkness of unconsciousness....

Based on similar but not exactly the same experiences my advise would be to:

Draw out the boundaries/conditions of the relationship from your side 
Be consistent with them about your expectations - don't be afraid to speak out about your feelings. Have the courage to be blunt when necessary, make sure they know that the relationship is conditional and you don't do stuff for them "for free" just because they are your parents.

Try to deal with your attachment issues:

- attachment to what your parents think of you
- attachment to whether they are helping you
- attachment to their value systems
- attachment to their input in your dp issues.

Your emotional life is definately in your own hands now. Have you heard of EFT? Very effective for dispersing negative emotional patterns. (self-denial, taking too much responsibility etc).


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

I can relate to everything you said about your family Pablo because mine is quite similar. Whenever I was depressed as a kid it was always "You just need to eat healthy and excercise more and you'll feel better!" from my Dad. That's his answer to everything, even though I could see HIM doing that stuff and STILL being depressed.

My mum was always more of a rose coloured glasses kind of woman, in that she tried to focus on crystals and poems about loving people etc. Nothing wrong in that per se, but when you are denying negative emotions it becomes a problem.

As I began to unravel myself I talked to them about how I was getting therapy and began to ask questions about my past. They became really defensive and hurt because they thought I was blaming them for what happened. I wasn't really, I just wanted to get to the bottom of things.

Anyway, more recently they still get upset about that sort of stuff, but I've actually said to them something along the lines of "Look, I'm not blaming anyone for how badly I feel. You have issues just like everyone else and I've taken on some of those issues over the years. I'm trying to heal those issues now and I need some honest information from you". My sister tells them things like "You've done a great job raising us, but its time for you to let go and let us be our own people. You've given us all the tools and lessons we need to live".

Its a difficult balancing act. As you heal more of your own issues the same issues in your parents become even more apparent. Because you've changed and they haven't, they still have those little energetic "hooks" that try to drag you back into the pattern. It becomes frustrating because you want to be your own person, but you still love your parents and feel some sort of obligation to them. In time you'll be able to be yourself though, so keep plugging away


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Yeah...that's the key issue - letting the child develop their own voice/self/directions in life, free from obligation to the past.

And even the most well meaning or effective parents are bound to hinder their child if they think the child should immitate their values.

I suppose my circumstances were more extreme than most because I never had any blessings to be true to myself. It was a very "serious" process I had to go through to say "no" to what was happening. I just accepted that it would have to involve some form of abandonment issues coming up.

I still feel somewhat like I'm not completely fulfilling myself. Self-denial has been a bad habit, something I was taught was the only way, really.

Even though my mum gave me blessings to be fulfilled yesterday for the first time in my life, I recognise that I still cannot be dependant on even that. She is going through her own process of psychological regeneration, and the focus of my life needs to be away from that, no matter how promising she appears to be. I am not going to be a slave even to her opening out. It was as life willed. Finally, Life allowed for her to let go of some crap. But I must not let that be my focus. Especially when I need to develop myself.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

I am definately redrawing boundaries in my relationships, well trying to anyway and I am trying to deal with whatever attachment issues I have, it is difficult though because whatever intentions I have to be different my parents are still in my head even though I dont live with them or even see them much anymore, all their judgement, criticism, rejections and controls are lodged in my head. call it the superego or internal judge or whatever, getting rid of that or even loosening its power is very difficult. I have done a lot of EFT in the past and it did help with some stuff but I got to a stage where I felt i had tapped just about everything I could think of and I still wasn't well so I looked for other methods of unlearning like the Recapitulation which I am hoping will take me that bit deeper into the problems.

I really get what you are saying Cecil about the hooks trying to drag you back into a pattern, I especially felt this over Christmas as I still felt it very difficult to be emotionally honest with my parents even though I promised myself I would be, so I suppose I am still protecting them because I can see that they are already full of guilt and self judgement so they would only see my problems as me blaming them. The problem is that I do blame them to some extent, not for having the problems but for never having the courage to try to deal with them, but that doesn't mean that I dont love them, but I doubt they could see that, they would only see the blame and feel the guilt around it and feel like I was attacking them.

I really hope the practices I am doing will eventually sort all this out, they say the recap takes two years so I hope by then I will be a fully functioning member of society, whether it really works to the level that they say it does I dont know but I hope so.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2008)

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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Thankyou Spirit, 
I believe there is something in this and will reconsider the meaning of the Boddhisatva path again as I do feel a bit stuck at the moment.
R


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

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