# Neurofeedback



## thy (Oct 7, 2015)

I've read a number of promising stories for this treatment (see below). It kind of seems too good to be true though. Interested to hear more stories if there are any out there from people who have tried it. If you have tried it, successful or not, please post.

Its been shown to have some success in treating PTSD (see below).

Ch 19 of The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van der Kolk gives a pretty good introduction to it.

I also emailed the guy in the first youtube video I posted here, Carl Shames, a neurofeedback therapist, to ask if he thought it was worth trying neurofeedback to help with DP. His response:

"I can't make promises but I think it's definitely worth a try. Although you aren't experiencing anxiety, depersonalization is generally considered to be a reaction to some serious stress on the system - neurofeedback should be able to have a significant impact on this. I would expect some sign of results within 5 sessions."

So, worth a try it seems!

*About the treatment: *

https://www.eeginfo.com/what-is-neurofeedback.jsp











*Promising stories for DPDR:*

https://books.google...zation&f=false (see case 3: EEG Neurofeedback and Reembodying a Self - a Case Study of Depersonalisation)

http://www.depersonalization.info/story_of_sheryl.htm

http://www.enhance-neurofeedback.com.au/testimonials.html (see case 3)

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/30518-dp-and-psychiatric-treatment-article/ (evidently rightwrong99 has found it useful)

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/31204-attachment-theoy/ (" ")

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/50258-i-have-recovered-there-is-hope/ (seems to have helped this person in their recovery)

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/22937-neurofeedback-help-emg/

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=10320.20 (see top post)

http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl?post=/babble/20130205/msgs/1037968.html (do a keyword search for "neurofeedback". case here where neurofeedback seems to have helped someone who experienced brain fog for 7 years)

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/7484-neurofeedback-results/ (relatively promising)

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/5428-what-do-you-do-to-decrease-feelings-of-dpdr/

*Neurofeedback, in combination with group therapy, used to successfully treat 11 DID patients:*

http://brainresourcecenter.com/relevantresearch/research/DissociativeDisorders/(2-4)4.pdf

*Neurofeedback for PTSD:*

http://www.readcube.com/articles/10.1111%2Facps.12229?r3_referer=wol&tracking_action=preview_click&show_checkout=1&purchase_referrer=onlinelibrary.wiley.com&purchase_site_license=LICENSE_DENIED

http://ptsd-treatment.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/PTSD_Neurofeedback_Studypdf.pdf

http://www.schulich.uwo.ca/schulichhome/articles/2013/12/03/neurofeedback-tunes-key-brain-networks-improving-subjective-well-being-in-ptsd-





 (pretty cool video)

*Also of interest:*

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1512.09133.pdf

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1301.4689.pdf

*Other threads on DPSH related to neurofeedback:*

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/34417-neurofeedback/

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/43305-eegneurofeedback-testing-could-be-key-here/

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52871-neurofeedback/

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/15009-neurofeedbackbiofeedback/


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

It has been shown that biofeedback does not work for DPD.


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## thy (Oct 7, 2015)

TDX said:


> It has been shown that biofeedback does not work for DPD.


Any citations?

What about the above stories?


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## tomenko (Jun 9, 2015)

hey ThyRuy

I found this:

https://books.google.it/books?id=zRN0AwAAQBAJ&pg=PT76&lpg=PT76&dq=neurofeedback+and+depersonalization&source=bl&ots=Rmvgi_EcfO&sig=tnRVFyV9fNguXo3CZwSxlbpiqs8&hl=it&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjKt5vzr8DJAhXKWxQKHXirB64Q6AEIZjAJ#v=onepage&q=neurofeedback%20and%20depersonalization&f=false

look for "Neurofeedback and Reembodying a Self. A case study of Depersonalization".

And this: http://www.amazon.com/Neurofeedback-Treatment-Developmental-Trauma-Fear-Driven/dp/0393707865/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1449171445&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=neurofeedback+in+treating+developmental+trauma

I also spoke with a girl recovered who told me neurofeedback helps her a lot.

And here and there i read too some positive feedbacks about it, but i don't know if it's really effective and efficient or not.

Maybe i will try and tell you


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## thy (Oct 7, 2015)

tomenko said:


> hey ThyRuy
> 
> I found this:
> 
> ...


Both those books you have cited look fascinating, particularity the section in the first link. Have you read that book? Or just did a google and it came up? Thats a pretty amazing case study.

Id love to try this also. I am pretty sure its not available here on the NHS in the UK. I wonder how much it costs?

Why not more interest in this topic?


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## tomenko (Jun 9, 2015)

google it..btw i would like to read them, expecially the ones of Van der volk.

for what i've read i think neurofeedback it's pretty expensive, but i don't know how much is it precisely.

Who knows..: probably the recovery stories people you listed before have the same reembodiment experience.

I don't know where are you in the uk but i think there are clinics doing it.


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15299732.2011.606742


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## thy (Oct 7, 2015)

TDX said:


> http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15299732.2011.606742


Isn't electrodermal biofeedback different to neurofeedback? My DP brain is too lazy to properly research if there is a difference.


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## tomenko (Jun 9, 2015)

King Elliott said:


> Yeah, skin conductance is frequently used in DP studies but it has no real connection to neurofeedback as I understand it (e.g. using qEEGs).


I agree. Neurofeedback and electrodermal biofeedback are different.


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## luctor et emergo (May 22, 2015)

Neurofeedback could word IMO. The theory behind this treatment is valid. Putting it in therapeutical practice is a different story altogether. In 2010 I underwent almost 40 sessions = 30 hours of neurofeedback. The results... nothing significant. Like Elliott mentioned in his TMS thread, most practicioners are amateurs. There is currently no solid protocol behind neurofeedback and treating dpd, drd. If you have acces to it, try it. 
It did me no harm and if I ever get the chance to do a second round I'm in. But not before doing research into what neurofeedback approach has the biggest chance to change something for the better in the brain waves. For example reduced beta wave activity in the frontal lobe.

Still have to post the results (qEEG) in the psychiatric treatments topic. Will do.


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## thy (Oct 7, 2015)

luctor et emergo said:


> Neurofeedback could word IMO. The theory behind this treatment is valid. Putting it in therapeutical practice is a different story altogether. In 2010 I underwent almost 40 sessions = 30 hours of neurofeedback. The results... nothing significant. Like Elliott mentioned in his TMS thread, most practicioners are amateurs. There is currently no solid protocol behind neurofeedback and treating dpd, drd. If you have acces to it, try it.
> It did me no harm and if I ever get the chance to do a second round I'm in. But not before doing research into what neurofeedback approach has the biggest chance to change something for the better in the brain waves. For example reduced beta wave activity in the frontal lobe.
> 
> Still have to post the results (qEEG) in the psychiatric treatments topic. Will do.


So you think with better research into this and better practical application it could be successful?

What do you believe went wrong in your case? How much did you pay?


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## tomenko (Jun 9, 2015)

Hey thyRuy (i don't know why but i cannot send you PM, so i post here these info's),

in addition to neurofeedback, i've also found an interesting technique called TRE (here some info's: http://www.bercelifoundation.org/s/1340/aff_2_interior.aspx?sid=1340&gid=1&pgid=403

and http://www.traumareleaseexercises.com.au/tre-info/neurogenic-tremors/)which has shown good outcomes for helping people suffering from trauma-stress-anxious related disorders.

Does anybody of you guys know anything about it, or even tried it?

@Luctor: i don't know if the neurofeedback change something permanently in the mind waves balance (even if it seems it does, probably thanks to neuroplasticity of the brain), but if you go on this link (http://tremore-neurogeno.blogspot.it/) you find an image that shows that during these neurogenic tremors the alpha wawes (the one of physical well-being, happiness and self awareness) are increased. I don't know about the beta wavers. Btw the small legend is in american/english so you can understand.

IMO, even if i just started reading, TRE and Neurofeedback could be further efficient techniques to cure dp/dr (at least the one related to trauma, which i think they are the more), if combined with others aspects (psychotherapy,etc.) in an integrated and systemic (mind-brain-body) therapy.

We will see. 

p.s. Here another document/trial about TRE (neurogenic tremors): http://traumaprevention.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Revised-disssertation-for-publication.pdf


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## tomenko (Jun 9, 2015)

thyRUY said:


> So you think with better research into this and better practical application it could be successful?
> 
> What do you believe went wrong in your case? How much did you pay?


Neurofeedback is harmless for what i've read (kind of neurobiological training - not a neurochemical one).

In this case, the worst could happen is to spend money without seeing any particular effects..

In italy, one session of NF it's like 80 euro/1 Hour and TRE is 100 euro/1.5 hour

Found this about england:

http://www.braintrainuk.com/

http://www.brainworksneurotherapy.com/


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## thy (Oct 7, 2015)

tomenko said:


> Hey thyRuy (i don't know why but i cannot send you PM, so i post here these info's),
> 
> in addition to neurofeedback, i've also found an interesting technique called TRE (here some info's: http://www.bercelifoundation.org/s/1340/aff_2_interior.aspx?sid=1340&gid=1&pgid=403
> 
> ...


Thanks tomenko, Ill check out these links, looks interesting!


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## luctor et emergo (May 22, 2015)

thyRUY said:


> So you think with better research into this and better practical application it could be successful?
> 
> What do you believe went wrong in your case? How much did you pay?


My pc is damaged so I can't look up the findings of the neurofeedback administrator + questionares + qEEG results... hopefully this year, apologies.

Nothing went wrong perse, the settings just didn't provoke a reaction. Multiple approaches were tried. Maybe the frequency of the sessions (2 hours back to back) once every 2 weeks) wasn't enough. This is speculatation though. There was no protocol for treating my dpd, drd symptons, as I was the first. In short: my treatment was a shot in the dark.

The costs: the Netherlands were a pretty good country in the health insurance department. At the time in 2010 the treatment didn't have any additional costs.

Neurofeedback has proven to be effective with various disorders like adhd. Alas dpd and drd are again overlooked in this treatment form.


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## thy (Oct 7, 2015)

luctor et emergo said:


> Alas dpd and drd are again overlooked in this treatment form.


yeah this seems to be a theme


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## Bedinus80 (Nov 14, 2015)

Hi!

I started biofeedback/neurofeedback just now. The first session was a test about my brain. Very interesting, that my EEG didn't show a little anxiety at all!!! By the way, my DP/DR is because of severe anxety and panic, so it is really interesting. The therapyst said it means that it is a learned habit (I can't explain better, my native language is not english), my brain works well.

Only one thing was a little bit higher than normal: the SMR/theta waves. It means that I am not 100% "awake". I asked her if the dp/dr could this be and she said yes. So now we are working on this. Today it was my first real therapy and I had to focus on films and animations. 

To be honest, I don't know what happened, but my dp/dr decreased a lot (from 9/10 to 2/10) in the past weeks without any reasons os therapies/meds (before the neurofeedback). So I don't know if this neurofeedback how effective would be if I was in a so deep state than earlier.


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## 58779 (Jan 7, 2016)

Interesting about that theta waves thing. I feel more at sleepy than constant panic or anxiety. Maybe I am more asleep too.


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## Fatoush (Jan 15, 2016)

Tdx how long have you had this disorder? Does it affect your thoughts?


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## thy (Oct 7, 2015)

Bedinus80 said:


> To be honest, I don't know what happened, but my dp/dr decreased a lot (from 9/10 to 2/10) in the past weeks without any reasons os therapies/meds (before the neurofeedback). So I don't know if this neurofeedback how effective would be if I was in a so deep state than earlier.


Thanks for your update, would be interesting if you could let us know how it goes as your treatment progresses.

Your DP decreased from 9/10 to 2/10 before you started the neurofeedback?


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## Bedinus80 (Nov 14, 2015)

the_nomad said:


> Interesting about that theta waves thing. I feel more at sleepy than constant panic or anxiety. Maybe I am more asleep too.


Yes it is really interesting. And when I was doing the tasks in front of the monitor (I had to concentrate on moving things or a film), I get better and better results after each task.


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## Bedinus80 (Nov 14, 2015)

Fatoush said:


> Tdx how long have you had this disorder? Does it affect your thoughts?


I have this disorder third time in my life now. First of all, I have to say that my DP/DR is because of severe anxiety and panic attacks. I was 19, when it first hit me, after app. a month of anxiety, I get a 6/10 DR without DP. I was terrified, I thought I was going crazy. I did nothing and it went away after app. 10 months. The second episode happened when I was 25. I felt anxiety a lot, than one day I terrible panic attack hit me. It was not a heart-attack like panic. I felt I was going to die or disappearing just in that moment, the world became 2 dimensional and I was waiting for the end of my life. And of course it happened again and again, than I stucked in a terrible DP/DR state (10/10). I did't get any medicine, I was in hell for 2-3 months but after I get a little better. After 6 months I was quite normal again and I was really OK after a year.

And now I am 35, last august I started to feel anxiety again. I started to thinking about those terrible panic attacks, I was so afraid to have them again, that of course it happened. And of course the whole thing started again, terrible panic attacks, 0/24 terrible anxiety and DP/DR (9/10) again. From september to december I felt I was on another place, nor here in the Earth.

Honestly, I started CBT and neurofeedback, but what really helped me is a little dose of xanax (0,25) occasionally (2-3 times a week). Xanax helped me to calm down and get out from my house, go socialize, go to work again. I was focusing on other things, real life things, and my DP/DR is much better now. Of course I have bad days, but I can say it is only 2/10now. Sometimes I feel totally normal. My anxiety is much better now, the only thing is that I am still afraid of those panic attacks. That's why I have still anxiety and DP/DR.


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## Bedinus80 (Nov 14, 2015)

thy said:


> Thanks for your update, would be interesting if you could let us know how it goes as your treatment progresses.
> 
> Your DP decreased from 9/10 to 2/10 before you started the neurofeedback?


I will write about the results and the treatment progresses!

Yes, my DP/DR decreased before neurofeedback. I have written above my story, that my DP/DR is purely based on anxiety/panic. If my anxiety level low, I am almost DP/DR free (sometimes total free).


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## thy (Oct 7, 2015)

I spoke to a guy on the phone today from http://www.brainworksneurotherapy.com

He said they have had people with DPD before and he thought they could help me. He said 70% of their clients either had PTSD symptoms or shutdown/freeze symptoms. Seriously considering trying this, though it would probably be a £2k experiment.


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## simonlebon (Apr 13, 2015)

I went in for the evaluation today. It was really interesting. I was there almost 2 1/2 hours. The guys was very thorough and helpful. He went through my whole history (he's a psychologist Phd) and then hooked me up to the machine. He did sensors on the back of the head and then up the center, and then on the temporal lobes.

My results he said were pretty consistent with what I had told him about having dp/dr and just a history of anxiety. He said I'm definitely NOT ADD.  More like the opposite. It's the very busy brain, very much ruminating, inward focusing. He could also tell that I was easily thrown off or upset by the small inconveniences... waiting in line at the store, in traffic... all very true. General impatience. Control. He nailed several things just by looking at my brain waves. Was pretty cool.

He actually has a waiting list for patients to start actual sessions (this was an eval), and has 4 other people working for him, so apparently this business is doing well. He said he thought everything I was doing with diet/exercise/relation was all good. He thought this treatment (maybe 10 sessions?) Could give my brain the extra bump it needs to get to recovery faster. So I may try it.

Low power = hopefully this means my brain is in "healing" mode.. it's not using it's full power. Could be recouping.

High frequency = what power I do have, I'm overthinking, ruminating, trying to "figure things out", hyperstimlated

High Alpha = anxiety/depression

Here were his exact comments:

Your brain mapping was characterized by low power, high frequency and excess alpha. Low power could be related to brain healing, trauma or metabolic issues. High frequency indicates an overactive brain associated with over arousal; this is seen in your high beta, especially in the left temporal. Excess alpha throughout could indicate an internal focus as well as some anxiety issues. Overall, much of what we observed is consistent with your presenting complaints.


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## thy (Oct 7, 2015)

simonlebon said:


> I went in for the evaluation today. It was really interesting. I was there almost 2 1/2 hours. The guys was very thorough and helpful. He went through my whole history (he's a psychologist Phd) and then hooked me up to the machine. He did sensors on the back of the head and then up the center, and then on the temporal lobes.
> 
> My results he said were pretty consistent with what I had told him about having dp/dr and just a history of anxiety. He said I'm definitely NOT ADD.  More like the opposite. It's the very busy brain, very much ruminating, inward focusing. He could also tell that I was easily thrown off or upset by the small inconveniences... waiting in line at the store, in traffic... all very true. General impatience. Control. He nailed several things just by looking at my brain waves. Was pretty cool.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the update. Where are you doing this? If you go ahead, would be good to hear how it goes.

Also, to any admins, would be good to move this thread from the Discussion section to the Treatment Options section. Im not sure how to do this? Although neurofeedback isnt a cure all, it certainly seems to be something that may be helpful, at least in combination with other treatments.


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## simonlebon (Apr 13, 2015)

Yeah , I will update if I end up getting treatments. This is in the Kansas City area.


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## thy (Oct 7, 2015)

Foolishly or not, I'm starting this in a month, 6 sessions to start, more after that if it does anything. I'll report back also.


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## Bedinus80 (Nov 14, 2015)

Hi all!

I had my 7th neurofeedback session today. My results are better and better. And I can say, that I feel more focused. I can concentrate much better, I can pay more attention on things. During neurofeedback therapy your brain learns how to work correctly. I think I started to feel this "way of focusing", I can develop this feeling when I want it. E.g. when I am thinking about bad things, I just focus that way on another thing and it works.

Anyway, this therapy is not a miracle and I think it is not enough for DP/DR/anxiety/depression on its own. I have anxious, or more DPd days or hours as well, but with other therapies (CBT etc.) it IS very efficient.


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## thy (Oct 7, 2015)

My qEEG results for anyone that's interested.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/299599357/Thy-Report-QEEG


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## 58779 (Jan 7, 2016)

What does your results mean? There are many thick red lines in z scored coherence, so you have more activity in beta waves? I am only now looking at what neurofeedback is and don't know the language and only know little about what each wave intensity means.


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## thy (Oct 7, 2015)

the_nomad said:


> What does your results mean? There are many thick red lines in z scored coherence, so you have more activity in beta waves? I am only now looking at what neurofeedback is and don't know the language and only know little about what each wave intensity means.


Im still figuring it out  would have been nice if they provided some interpretation of the results, but apparently not.

I think the red part, indicating overactivity, on pages 12,13 is located at the right prefrontal cortex. I think over activity in this area is thought to inhibit parts of the limbic system associated with emotional processing.


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## hennessy (Apr 2, 2008)

thy said:


> Im still figuring it out  would have been nice if they provided some interpretation of the results, but apparently not.
> 
> I think the red part, indicating overactivity, on pages 12,13 is located at the right prefrontal cortex. I think over activity in this area is thought to inhibit parts of the limbic system associated with emotional processing.


Have you started it?


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## thy (Oct 7, 2015)

had 3 sessions so far, no noticeable changes in my symptoms yet.


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## Fatoush (Jan 15, 2016)

Cool


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## thy (Oct 7, 2015)

The place where I am doing this is here http://www.braintrainuk.com

I had my qEEG done here http://www.brainworksneurotherapy.combut was put off actually having the neurofeedback therapy there for various reasons.

The type of neurofeedback I am doing is called endogenous (infra low frequency) neurofeedback. This is different from QEEG guided neurofeedback. See question 9 here for more info http://www.braintrainuk.com/top-10-questions/

After 4 sessions, I haven't noticed any changes in my symptoms yet. Maybe I am doing the wrong type of neurofeedback therapy and should be doing QEEG guided therapy, maybe neurofeedback doesn't work for DP, or maybe I haven't had enough sessions yet. I'll report back at session 10.


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## luctor et emergo (May 22, 2015)

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53255-finally-a-sort-of-laymans-interpretation-of-a-qeeg/

So I started this new thread about the interretation of a qEEG.

But since qEEG results are relevant for this topic as well... please watch:


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## thy (Oct 7, 2015)

After 10 sessions of this I haven't seen any noticeable changes in my symptoms. Possibly a very very slight improvement in DR, but nothing to shout about. This type of neurofeedback certainly didn't help me. If some research was done that found there was a specific protocol that worked for DP I might consider trying it again.

In hindsight it might have been better to do EEG guided NF.


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## ClassicBeautyBelle (Oct 14, 2016)

This specific neurofeedback is called 4-channel multi variate coherence training.

It has brought back some of my emotion and I can laugh again. I really want to help others out because we have all suffered enough. If you do try it out tell me your experience. My doctor specifically trains the frontal lobe, temporal lobes, and some part of the parietal lobe.There is a special protocol that she does that focuses on the areas that cause DP and DR.

So I would like it if we could spread the word so other people can get help. I don't want anyone to get stuck in the dark.

Hello everyone, my doctor just got back with me about the kind of neurofeedback I am using. It's called 4-channel multi variate coherence training. It trains both amplitude (strength) of frequencies as well as the connectivity (communication) between sites of the receptors (electrodes). This kind of neurofeedback is Qeeg based and only available with Eeger equipment right now. But amplitude only or other Qeeg based training can also be helpful and can be done on most FDA approved Eeg equipment. If you guys want to find a practioner you can search s provider on this site: Eeg education or research. For more information on this type of neurofeedback you can visit http://integratedneu...nceservices.com. I hope I've helped provide enough information so you can find someone who practices this.

Neurofeedback has provided miracles. Just today I did a session and can see a bit more depth to what I'm seeing. More colorful and sharp. Of course it's not 100% cleared yet but it's getting better and better folks. I think I may be have found a successful treatment option. And I've had DP and DR for 3 years 24/7. And I had very severe DP and DR. Please try this new neurofeedback, you can search for a provider online like I just provided.


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