# Borderline...feel like I'm going to lose my mind...



## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

So, in one of my more pathetic instances of desperation in a Chapters book store a few weeks ago, i had the misfortune of settling on a real clunker of a book discussing borderline personality disorder. The book is truly awful, and i'm actually thinking of taking it back to the store and saying that i'd like to exchange it for something less sleep-inducing, but i'd probably only get a blank stare and awkward smiles, so i assume i'll just end up burning it in my back yard while giggling maniacally, as i'm wont to do, especially in these dark days just following the dreaded winter solstice.

Anyway, i won't mention the name of the book, lest my acrimonious lambasting plummets the clearly intellectually-challenged author into a set of deep ruminating despair, for which i would feel mildly responsible. But the book itself is dull...boring...pointless...pedantic...and just stupid.

But the point of this thread...my question...is this: What the hell is Borderline Personality Disorder, and is this what we have? Is DP considered a subsidiary of this? How does it all fit in? Or is this just another attempt by the hapless psychological community at throwing vague symptoms together with other vague symptoms into a collective category and assigning, quite randomly i'm sure, some sensationalistic sounding title or another, so they can all make more and more money while managing to avoid any real work and keeping their hands clean of guilt and responsibility with pusillanimous references to ethical vows and dubious laudatory certificates...oh, i don't know...i probably don't mean half of what i just said. It's just...many people are adept at sympathy, pity, and empathy...many more can memorize various psychological tenets, dogmas, categorizations...but how many can actually HELP? Isn't that the point? Isn't that what a "doctor" is supposed to do? But they don't help. The only people they help are brain-dead, drooling morons who are having marital trouble and spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of their time to uncover the fact that they need to "communicate". Wow. What a profession. They're like sooth sayers or something.

Anyway, sorry about the outburst...most of that isn't true. I'm just feeling frustrated. What i want to know is if anyone knows anything about this borderline personality disorder, and how it relates to dp/anxiety and the like.

Thanks,

s.


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Hey Sebastian,

I dont know and I dont want to know anything about all that bpd crap. Like most of the psychological "diseases" Im sure its just conjured up and given a title so they can sell more drugs to treat it. It sounds to me like you have the field of psychiatry figured out.


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

Meet somebody one day with bpd and you'll KNOW what it is. lol. It's very very real.


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

dakotajo said:


> Hey Sebastian,
> 
> I dont know and I dont want to know anything about all that bpd crap. Like most of the psychological "diseases" Im sure its just conjured up and given a title so they can sell more drugs to treat it. It sounds to me like you have the field of psychiatry figured out.


hey joe...

well, i wouldn't want to lump all of psychiatry into that category. I mean, i think we've come a long way since the days of drilling holes in the head and leeches and all that...i mean, my uncle is schizophrenic and while he's totally incapicated with the amount of drugs they pump into him, he was a raving nut without them. While i'm sure he's not thrilled with the way his life has turned out (no fault of his own, i might add), at least the drugs have provided him with some sense of reprieve from the demons that plague him. And bi-polars, despite what some people said on that other thread (i shant name names, but it was flippantly referred to as mild mood swings or something of that ilk), and who clearly, have never known or been around a bi-polar patient...definitely need the medication.

I just hate it when i go to see a psychologist/therapist/hypnotist or what have you, and they sit there...so ostentatioiusly approachable...the smugness betrayed in the way their head tweaks to one side, suggesting concern...or the way their eyes widen to intimate empathy...the intermittently appropriate hmms and huhhs slipping out of their lips and past their pensively placed fingers. They're as transparent as the ether...these emotional pimps...lost and without a clue...biding time each session and throwing rice on walls to see what sticks.

Like i said...for the idiotic, they're great. They're incredibly adept at pointing out the obvious...like the fumbling fool who comes in complaining of stress from his job...and after a million sessions, the "doctor" suggests that maybe he should take a vacation and not take work so seriously when he comes back. What a breakthrough!

For us though...us categorical misfits...who can possibly hope to help...words give comfort...pills give pleasure...but who has the patience, intelligence, ability, experience, and wisdom to help us? No one. They're confused little shepards looking for the right sheep.

s.


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

I look at psychiatry nowadays with their electroshock treatments and their anti-psychotic drugs which both are speculated to do irreversible brain damage and I wonder have we come a long way? Some of the current day techniques seem just as barbaric and ridiculous as drilling a hole in a persons head to release demons.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2005)

Good post Sebastian, everytime I read one of your posts I learn about 20 new words lol, which is obviously a beneficial thing, but anyways as far as Borderline Personality Disorder, im not exactly sure of its medical definition. I know that Multiple Personality Disorder is when a person will actually act out a different persona without even consciously being aware of it. BPD isn't severe in that sense, I think it may have to do with trying to maybe act like others to fit in because one might no be comfortable with their own self?? Something along those lines

Heres a link http://www.palace.net/~llama/psych/bpd.html that contains alot of medical jargon and bullshit.

it probably is bullshit, just so these greedy fucks can sell more medication and make more money.

I dunno

Im sure Janine will write a few paragraphs on the subject in response to this post so just wait for that.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

From the Merck Manual of Mental Disorders which is in the links section of this site. Why am I here posting this? IT EXISTS.

*"Borderline personality:* Persons with this personality disorder--predominantly women--are unstable in their self-image, mood, behavior, and interpersonal relationships. This personality disorder becomes evident in early adult years, but it tends to become milder or to stabilize with age. Such persons believe they were deprived of adequate care during their childhood and consequently feel empty, angry, and entitled to nurturance. As a result, they are relentless seekers of care. This personality disorder is by far the most common type seen in psychiatric and all other types of health care services.

When persons with a borderline personality feel cared for, they appear like lonely waifs, who seek help for depression, substance abuse, eating disorders, and past mistreatments. However, when they fear the loss of the caring person, their mood shifts dramatically and is frequently expressed as inappropriate and intense anger. The shift in mood is accompanied by extreme changes in their view of the world, themselves, and others--from black to white, from hated to loved, or vice versa (see splitting in Table 191-1). Their view is never neutral. When they feel abandoned (ie, all alone), they dissociate or become desperately impulsive. At times, their concept of reality is so poor that they have brief episodes of psychotic thinking, such as paranoid ideas and hallucinations.

Such persons have far more dramatic and intense interpersonal relationships than those with cluster A personality disorders. Their thought processes are disturbed more than those of persons with an antisocial personality, and aggression is more often turned against the self. They are more angry, more impulsive, and more confused about identity than those with a histrionic personality. They tend to evoke intense, initially nurturant responses in caretakers. But after repeated crises, vague unfounded complaints, and failures to comply with therapeutic recommendations, caretakers--including the physician--often become very frustrated with them and view them as help-rejecting complainers. Splitting, acting out, hypochondriasis, and projection are common coping mechanisms (see Table 191-1)."

More in a mo.....


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

I am currently in Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, though I'm not Borderline, but I grew up in a seriously invalidating environment. I have had certain borderline characteristics. Included in Borderline, which is an out-of-date term -- the new one proposed by Linehan is "Dyslimbia" (dysregulation in the limbic system) -- are severe episodes of depersonalization.

I don't know the diagnoses of the other people in my group, but we have similar characteristics from coming from severely dysfunctional backgrounds.

http://www.priory.com/dbt.htm

DBT which has been proven effective in clinical trials for at least 10+ years at University of Washington... and I think Marsha Linehan is now at Columbia University -- is based on Buddhist principles. Yes East meets West.

There are the four modules:

Mindfulness
Interpersonal Effectiveness Skills
Distress Tolerance
Emotion Module Skills

This is purely coping techniques. I need these as psychologically I see things in extremes of black or white, completely negative, or completely perfect. The goal is to work towards the center the "grey" area.

Thesis -------- Antithesis ------->Goal = Synthesis (Middle Ground) derived from Hegel and Marx Dialectical observations on society and economy.

Emotional Mind -------- WISE MIND ---------------- Rational Mind
Buddhist -- the goal is to achieve "wise mind" though it is impossible to achieve all the time. One tries to move towards the center.

Black--------------GREY ------------------White

I am gaining tremendous insight into myself through these very difficult to apply skills. 4 months of Mondays. I just started Mindfulness.

This is at University of Michigan Neuropsychiatric.

I have a psychiatrist I see once a week for my meds. And two ACSWs lead the groups. There is even a woman in the group who has had a head injury and subsequent impulse control problems. OCD patients, etc., etc., etc.

Not dredging up the past. Living in the present and coping.
I don't expect this to eliminate my DP/DR, chronic, but it is helping me control my racing thoughts, etc. Highly recommended if you can find a large uni that is familiar with this.

It is very similar to CBT, with the Buddhist concepts that the patient cannot fail in therapy, and that learning is a lifelong process.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

The old-fashioned term meant "on the borderline between psychosis and neurosis" -- this is found to be both innacurate and stigmatizing.

As noted, further research into neurology reveals disruption in the limbic system of such individuals which can possibly be caused by continued stress on a more sensitive individual.

Joe, you will be happy to know that fits in with your fight/flight theory.

All of this is not bullshit. You have to actually READ medical journals, look up words you don't understand, take courses. I was the daughter of two doctors, one a psychiatrist -- who yes was a vicious woman. But to be a medical doctor one never stops studying, taking courses. None of us here understand even the tip of the iceburg of the human mind.

Another reason why I am thrilled to have Daphne Simeon's book coming out. Do you understand that that book will bring MORE ATTENTION TO OUR PROBLEM. HAVE MORE PSYCHIATRISTS INFORMED ABOUT IT. ISN'T THAT WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO?


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

DSM-IV Definition of BPD

A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in (5).

A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. This is called "splitting."

Following is a definition of splitting from the book I Hate You, Don't Leave Me by Jerry Kreisman, M.D. From page 10:

The world of a BP, like that of a child, is split into heroes and villains. A child emotionally, the BP cannot tolerate human inconsistencies and ambiguities; he cannot reconcile anther is good and bad qualities into a constant coherent understanding of another person. At any particular moment, one is either Good or EVIL. There is no in-between; no gray area....people are idolized one day; totally devalued and dismissed the next.

Normal people are ambivalent and can experience two contradictory states atone time; BPs shift back and forth, entirely unaware of one feeling state while in the other.

When the idealized person finally disappoints (as we all do, sooner or later) the borderline must drastically restructure his one-dimensional conceptionalization. Either the idol is banished to the dungeon, or the borderline banishes himself in other to preserve the all-good image of the other person.

Splitting is intended to shield the BP from a barrage of contradictory feelings and images and from the anxiety of trying to reconcile those images. But splitting often achieves the opposite effect. The frays in the BP's personality become rips, and the sense of his own identity and the identity of others shifts even more dramatically and frequently.

Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.

Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in (5).

Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior.

Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).

Chronic feelings of emptiness.

Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).

Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.

Dissociation is the state in which, on some level or another, one becomes somewhat removed from "reality," whether this be daydreaming, performing actions without being fully connected to their performance ("running on automatic"), or other, more disconnected actions. It is the opposite of "association" and involves the lack of association, usually of one's identity, with the rest of the world.

There is no "pure" BPD; it coexists with other illnesses. These are the most common. BPD may coexist with:

Post traumatic stress disorder

Mood disorders

Panic/anxiety disorders

Substance abuse (54% of BPs also have a problem with substance abuse)

Gender identity disorder

Attention deficit disorder

Eating disorders

Multiple personality disorder

Obsessive-compulsive disorder

Statistics about BPD

BPs comprise:

2% of the general population

10% of all mental health outpatients

20% of psychiatric inpatients

75% of those diagnosed are women

75% have been physically or sexually abused


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

I know people can say, "oh well this can be anybody." and people will jump in wondering if they are borderline, but bpd is a very distinct illness, and probably often misdiagnosed in people that really don't have it. But for those that are borderline there's no mistaking it. I know people like to cry borderline b/c my best friend does, but she doesn't have it. It's one of those things you can't really understand unless you have it or know someone that does. Just like any other mental illness. Many people still claim depression and schitzophrenia and anxiety aren't real. Many claim benzo withdrawal isn't real. People just can't understand things they have never seen or witnessed before. Oh well. One of lifes little joys we have to get used to. :roll: Btw, I don't have bpd.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Yup, the Enneagirl has it PEGGED -- (edit, didn't mean to say she's Borderline!) but she knows what she's talking about. The DSM-IV has far better descriptions than the Merck Manual. But the Merck Manual is easily available online.

Also note the DSM-IV, the "Bible" for psychiatric diagnoses came out in 1994, and is 10 years out of date, or more if you consider how long it takes to put it together.


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

> The old-fashioned term meant "on the borderline between psychosis and neurosis" -- this is found to be both innacurate and stigmatizing.


I agree. My best friend once read this which is one reason why she thinks she is borderline. She also saw "Girl Interrupted" one to many times, lol.


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

If Im not mistaken My first crazy shrink included bpd as one of my many mental diseases. The next one told I was either schizoid or bipolar. Man, did that freak me out. My current doctor tells me I dont have any of thoses diseases and I probably just have brain damage from drinking too much beer.


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

Dreamer said:


> From the Merck Manual of Mental Disorders which is in the links section of this site. Why am I here posting this? IT EXISTS.
> 
> *"Borderline personality:* Persons with this personality disorder--predominantly women--are unstable in their self-image, mood, behavior, and interpersonal relationships. This personality disorder becomes evident in early adult years, but it tends to become milder or to stabilize with age. Such persons believe they were deprived of adequate care during their childhood and consequently feel empty, angry, and entitled to nurturance. As a result, they are relentless seekers of care. This personality disorder is by far the most common type seen in psychiatric and all other types of health care services.
> 
> ...


i can relate a little too well to this. more than id really like to admit. :? (most of what is written there is the reason my life has been biting me in the ass lately.. my moods are all over the place and im very paranoid and when i do i turn into this raving bitch out of nowhere. my moods are constantly shifting.. they can shift in mid conversation. i dunno though. wierd.)


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

thanks for the info dreamer and enngirl...

i hate to be predictible, but that truly does describe me as well. I mean, i'm sooo black and white in my thinking...and with relationships...i've ended friendships and relationships over absolute trifles...i'm the prince of melodrama in that sense. I really do have a very emotionally needy side to me. I mean, if i don't feel that people are devoted to me 100% of the time, day and night, i feel hugely resentful. I constantly need attention showered on me, and i constantly need to be reassured that people love me. It's exhausting even for me, to keep up with my rapacious desire to feel loved. I'm not sure where it all stemmed from with myself, but it's such a terrible personality trait. And it really does hurt relationships. Most women i date find me irresistably charming and fabulously captivating at first...but my _constant_ need to be the center of attention and my constant need for them to reaffirm that they care about me/love me/like me, or what have you, is enough to drive anyone away.

Now, i have a question...what is the difference between DP and BPD? I mean, obviously DP comes with a lot of extra baggage that BPD doesn't seem to have (ie. the "dreaminess" feeling, emotional deadness, etc.), but is BPD just a subsection of DP, administering our emotions?

Thanks kids,

s.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2005)

When I first heard the term boderline personality disorder...I thought,here we go.What's this?it sounds like a person that sort of has a personality but didn't quiet make it.

I decided best to check it out on the internet.I found heaps of information and support groups.
I discovered that there are several personality disorders.
Borderline
Schizoid
Anti social
Parananoid
Narcissistic
Avoidant
Dependent
Obsessive/Compulsive

There are actually a few others,I can't recall them.

What happened was whilst reading about each type,one in particular resonated rather loudly wth me.I came to see I have an avoidant personality disorder.
I think that this is the way it happens.
You will quickly recognise your particular set of traits and start nodding your head with aha,aha...........that's me!

Naturally to what degree you might have a personality disorder is like any other condition,anywhere from mild to extreme.
It appears that some of us might have two personality disorders.
For eg the people on a avoidant group also think it sometimes crosses over with schizoid personality.

One guy wrote a book claiming that all personality types are narcissitic in nature?I guess he would say that as he has a narcissistic personality.

I suppose one could claim that they have a persoanlity disorder or simply say they have certain personality traits that hinder their life and relationships with others.

Unless you are going to seek treatment for a particular personality disorder IMO it's pretty much up to the individual how much of the concept they choose to accept.
Nothing is black and white.
Just as I share dp/dr with people here,I'm still an individual in other ways,I have some things in common but certainly not all.

I can well understand that some people don't like tags or labels.
It's possible it might add to their low self esteem.
I don't have a problem with it........I figure what's one more going to hurt lol
I've found it helpful by getting to know myself and seeing the areas I could work on.
I also feel a sense of relief as people do here in identifying with others who share my afflication.

Just my opinion,cheers Shelly


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2005)

> If Im not mistaken My first crazy shrink included bpd as one of my many mental diseases. The next one told I was either schizoid or bipolar. Man, did that freak me out. My current doctor tells me I dont have any of thoses diseases and I probably just have brain damage from drinking too much beer.


Now I understand why you think all doctors all idiots and meds are poison and all is evil!!!!!!! A doctor finally told you all this was caused by a simple brain damage caused by too much beer, so it's not your fault, it's a brain damage. Hun? You aren't mentally disturbed, you just have neurological damage. it's so releasing, so relaxing to hear that, isn't it? It neurological, not psychological. So you aren't implied in your therapy, because it's beer who caused that. Pfew. You ARE normal. Gob bless ya. It's the third doctor who is right, 100 % right, and other are pure crazy schrinks.

Believe me I understand your thinking now. But I understand too that NO DOC have a pure and clear diagnosis, it doesn't mean it's the right one. But if you are OK with it, fine. If it cured you, fine!!!!!!!

But don't bother others who believes that maybe mental distress exists for REAL.

My apologies, I had to tell it.

Cynthia


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Cynthia,

I dont try to bother anybody. If people here cant accept the fact that what I write is my opinion and not be bothered by it then thats too bad. I know people have mental problems. Theres no doubt about that. I just dont believe in the way they single out a certain set of mental symptoms and call it a "disease" just so they can prescribe a certain flavor pill. I also dont like they way they market their "diseases". I think the whole mental health system along with the drug companies have gotten completely out of hand.

Joe


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

Bpd is a personality disorder. Dp is a symptom that often goes along with it. Many people that have bpd were severely physically or mentally abused as children. Severely. So the only thing I can figure is the trauma causes them to develop dissociation problems. You can find a lot of info on bpd online. Dissociation (ie. dr and dp) is only one problem of the bpd. They also have extreme mood swings, black/white thinking (they love you one minute and despise you the next), money/drug/alcohol problems, they're very hard to live with because they themselves are often physically and mentally abusive to their loved ones. People with depersonalization don't necessarily have these traits unless they have another disorder. http://www.mhsanctuary.com/borderline/
Sebastian, just because you're sensitive and melodramatic, needy, "The Starving Artist", doesn't mean you have bpd. I say if things are going ok with you, quit reading about personality disorders and move on with things. Take care sebastian.


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

enngirl5 said:


> Sebastian, just because you're sensitive and melodramatic, needy, "The Starving Artist", doesn't mean you have bpd. I say if things are going ok with you, quit reading about personality disorders and move on with things. Take care sebastian.


But things are pretty far from okay these days enngirl...my 2005 resolution is that i absolutely have to find out just what the hell is wrong with me. I mean, there has to be some kind of answer...am i just drifting out here all alone or something. It doesn't make any sense. You'll find a lot of posts like this one from me in the coming weeks. I WANT to understand more about all of this, rather than just accepting the fact that i'm mired in some incomprehensible mental disorder.

Thanks again,

s.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Dear Sebastian,
Sorry I'm such a crab these days. Some bad things have happened in my life in the past month.

One thing. The men (there are two guys who come every meeting) in my DBT group have impulse control issues. Men are far less likely to have Borderline -- again illustrates the differences between men and women -- our brains our different, our ways of reacting are different.

Both men have been substance abusers. One heroin (he must be 56 at least), the other alcohol. I don't know their diagnoses, we don't talk about that, or our problems, just situations where we apply our coping techniques.

These men are the kind who get so enraged, they might beat their wives, or get fired from a job for attacking a coworker, etc. You'd NEVER know it. Both men are very articulate. One is a mechanic, another works in a plant of some sort. One man says, his anger doesn't grow slowly, it is like a light switch. He can be calm one moment and enraged the next. But these men have insight into their problems and are making a concerted effort to control their moods. I don't know if they are medicated or not.

At any rate, women with BPD have DP as a *symptom* of BPD. I don't know enough about men w/BPD -- haven't seen much written about it. The women also cut themselves, as they either can't feel their bodies, or they do this out of self-loathing or to get attention. Also someone with BPD may threaten suicide to "punish" someone, or attempt it, or actually commit suicide out of desperation. This is not a simple disorder to treat either.

Re: DP. My sense is that in most cases, per many studies, it is PART of another disorder. I.E. I have anxiety and depression. DP is part of those illnesses, one symptom that came WITH the anxiety in particular. Why it is chronic 24/7 for me, I don't know.

All the mental illnesses, and I believe Borderline Personality can have DP with them. Someone who is bipolar, OCD, depressed, post-partum depressed, panic disorder, GAD, etc., etc. can have DP as *part of a group of symptoms that make up that diagnosis*.

Again, if you study the DSM-IV as I have (over the years -- it's 800 pages long) -- though I am far from an expert, and if you have worked with the mentally ill -- as I have as a volunteer, you will see the reasoning behind the categorization of mental illness. Having a diagnosis assists in treatment.

I.E. giving an SSRI to someone who is bipolar can cause mania. An incorrect DIAGNOSIS can cause havoc. That doesn't mean the individual isn't bipolar, it means the doctor didn't do a thorough enough evaluation and didn't see the manic side of the individual. A mood stabilizer would have been the correct med.

Also, no one can be pidgeonholed specifically. *ALL MENTAL ILLNESES OCCUR ON A SPECTRUM FROM LESS TO SEVERE TO VERY SEVERE. Regardless someone seeks help as their illness is affecting their social or occupational functioning.* Psychiatrists don't pull people off the street to give them medication. Those of us here are seeking help as we feel "odd" can't function fully, etc.

Pure, Primary DP seems to be rare. DP ONLY with no other symptoms such as anxiety, etc. Sierra has found such people to have brain tumors. Stimulation of certain areas of the brain can bring on DP, OBE, etc.

He is trying to understand the "pure" DP. Reason: then he might understand DP in all mental illness.

Dr. Simeon's patients apparently have many mental illnesses that come with DP. This is her study, though someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Forgive my crabbines.

*And Joe, before pharmaceutical companies, back in ancient Greece, mental illnesses were recognized. People were categorized with four basic personality types -- Melancholic, Phlegmatic, Choleric, and Sanguine. I think. LOL. Melancholic is obvious -- depression was recognized thousands of years ago.*

And doctors have been around a long time, even in ancient Egypt. And anybody remember Hippocrates?

End of lecture,
L,
D

P.S. someone save this. I can't write it again, LOL.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

P.S. Shelly, and Enneagirl, and who else, has a very good handle on this. No one person fits fully into a specific category. They may have say 4 out of 7 symptoms indicative of a specific illness. If they don't meet the minimum criteria, there must be a closer re-evaluation.

I think of my mother who had Alzheimer's. Took her 10 years to die from it in a Nursing Home, like Ronald Reagan. You'd think that would be "easy" to diagnose, but it wasn't. It wasn't diagnosed until her death. Why?

Alzheimer's which is a very specific deterioration of the brain and nervous system is usually diagnosed these days by process of elimination. When I got my mother into a hospital after she failed a full neurological exam, she didn't even know where she was and it was a hospital she'd worked in before, etc. But for 2 weeks she was examined on a locked ward.

She was checked for B12 deficiency, for a brain tumor, for multi-infarct dementia (little strokes), all sorts of other possible illnesses. One by one these were ruled out. The final diagnosis "Organic Brain Syndrome" -- why? Because her deterioration, the mode of deterioration and length of her becoming more incapacitated... .the evolution of her decline... was the final proof of Alzheimer's.

If Alzheimer's is still in part a process of elimination, consider the complexity of diagnosing mental illness. In some cases, you might not believe it, certain mental illnesses are far easier to diagnose. My husband was diagnosed with OCD by an excellent doctor in about 2 sessions. He had been misdiagnosed with "dysthimia" for about 40 years. Why? His psychologists/doctors never asked him the right questions.

Yes, there is medical incompetence. But mental illness exists, always has, and let's hope one day excellent treatment and cures are more and more common.

Peace,
D


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2005)

Excellent stuff here from Dreamer and Eneagram (I NEVER get your name right, and when I'm trying to type it, there is no way to LOOK at how you spell it, lol) and Shelly.

One distinction, Sebastian to remember:
The personality disorders (like BPD, that list above that SHelly found) are not symptoms, but Clusters of types of behavior and thinking. They are literally PERSONALITY types, but "disordered" because the coping skills they rely on are very archaic, and something didn't go well in development of the personality and its way of dealing with the world.

DP, and anxiety and depression and obsessiveness are Symptoms. They're not things that describe the basic Person (or their personality structure) but experiences the person has that are highly disturbing.

We go to the doctor complaining about our symptoms - they are the things we want to get RID of.

The personality disorders feel "correct" to the person who has one. They don't think "what is wrong with me that I'm so black and white in my thinking?" Instead, they say "ANYBODY would be black and white in thoughts if they lived the life I've had!" The Personality Disorder is Intrinsic to the person himself...it IS him.

Along with certain kinds of personality types (and personality disorders) come certain symptoms. It's not that one "CAUSES" the other, but they just tend to be there. For those who ascribe to the psychological model, those symptoms are the result of faulty defenses that those particular personality types tend to use.

Hope that sort of clarifies.

Love,
Janine
p.s. and Sebastian, within the scope of personality problems, you'd fall into the Narcissistic area much more than Borderline. (I know him very well, guys, this isn't just "wild diagnosis" lol)


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

I understand Sebastian. I just don't like to worry people when I start rambling about mental disorders because I don't want to make people on this board worry that there's something irreparably wrong with them. Because there's not. But we (the majorty of us on this board) are so damn sensitive and worry about everything and we're like sponges when it comes to hearing about physical and mental problems. So I try to keep my mouth shut in these discussions. But I figure if I'm gonna be an internet and psychology addict I should share my wealth of information with others, lol.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2005)

OK DJoe,

Sorry if I offend you. Sometimes I get upset, I am human, I think :shock:

No offense.

Cynthia


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

What is Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)?

A borderline writes:
"Being a borderline feels like eternal hell. Nothing less. Pain, anger, confusion, hurt, never knowing how I'm gonna feel from one minute to the next. Hurting because I hurt those who I love. Feeling misunderstood. Analyzing everything. Nothing gives me pleasure. Once in a great while I will get "too happy" and then anxious because of that. Then I self-medicate with alcohol. Then I physically hurt myself. Then I feel guilty because of that. Shame. Wanting to die but not being able to kill myself because I'd feel too much guilt for those I'd hurt, and then feeling angry about that so I cut myself or O.D. to make all the feelings go away. Stress!"

Therapists use a book called "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual" (DSM) to make mental health diagnoses. They've outlined nine traits that borderlines seem to have in common; the presence of five or more of them may indicate BPD.

However, please note the following:

Everyone has all these traits to a certain extent. Especially teenagers. These traits must be long-standing (lasting years) and persistent. And they must be intense.

Be very careful about diagnosing yourself or others. In fact, don't do it. Top researchers guide patients through several days of testing before they make a diagnosis. Don't make your own diagnosis on the basis of a WWW site or a book!

Many people who have BPD also have other concerns, such as depression, eating disorders, substance abuse ? even multiple personality disorder or attention deficit disorder. It can be difficult to isolate what is BPD and what might be something else. Again, you need to talk to a qualified professional.

DSM-IV Definition of BPD

A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in (5).

A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. This is called "splitting."

Following is a definition of splitting from the book I Hate You, Don't Leave Me by Jerry Kreisman, M.D. From page 10:

The world of a BP, like that of a child, is split into heroes and villains. A child emotionally, the BP cannot tolerate human inconsistencies and ambiguities; he cannot reconcile anther is good and bad qualities into a constant coherent understanding of another person. At any particular moment, one is either Good or EVIL. There is no in-between; no gray area....people are idolized one day; totally devalued and dismissed the next.

Normal people are ambivalent and can experience two contradictory states atone time; BPs shift back and forth, entirely unaware of one feeling state while in the other.

When the idealized person finally disappoints (as we all do, sooner or later) the borderline must drastically restructure his one-dimensional conceptionalization. Either the idol is banished to the dungeon, or the borderline banishes himself in other to preserve the all-good image of the other person.

Splitting is intended to shield the BP from a barrage of contradictory feelings and images and from the anxiety of trying to reconcile those images. But splitting often achieves the opposite effect. The frays in the BP's personality become rips, and the sense of his own identity and the identity of others shifts even more dramatically and frequently.

Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.

Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in (5).

Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior.

Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).

Chronic feelings of emptiness.

Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).

Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.

Dissociation is the state in which, on some level or another, one becomes somewhat removed from "reality," whether this be daydreaming, performing actions without being fully connected to their performance ("running on automatic"), or other, more disconnected actions. It is the opposite of "association" and involves the lack of association, usually of one's identity, with the rest of the world.

There is no "pure" BPD; it coexists with other illnesses. These are the most common. BPD may coexist with:

Post traumatic stress disorder

Mood disorders

Panic/anxiety disorders

Substance abuse (54% of BPs also have a problem with substance abuse)

Gender identity disorder

Attention deficit disorder

Eating disorders

Multiple personality disorder

Obsessive-compulsive disorder

Statistics about BPD

BPs comprise:

2% of the general population

10% of all mental health outpatients

20% of psychiatric inpatients

75% of those diagnosed are women

75% have been physically or sexually abused

thats me.

so now what?


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2005)

I have been diagnosed with BPD and with Complex PTSD with dissociative features (DP/DR).
I cant say Im happy with it. 

Sleepy, Ive always had the idea you have BPD.
There is special treatment for it.


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

> I dont know and I dont want to know anything about all that bpd crap. Like most of the psychological "diseases" Im sure its just conjured up and given a title so they can sell more drugs to treat it. It sounds to me like you have the field of psychiatry figured out.


Haha Dakota Joe, BPD is considered untreatable and there are no medicines available for BPD. The closest thing would be medication for Depression or Bi-Polar disorder. But there is no conncetion between "hey you have BPD" and a certain group of drugs.


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

BTW what I mean by untreatable guys is NOT that it's hopeless. Its that there are no medications for BPD specifically. BPD is very complicated and requires psychotherapeutic intervention. If the person is able to psychologically understand his extreme thinking, b & w thinking, etc, and change it, he could likely recover...

BTW I don't notice any REAL BPD tendencies in any of you guys as exhibited on this board, so don't go looking up stuff you don't need to look up.

You can, however, LEARN from the symptom set of BPD (black and white thinking, perfectionism, etc)...by realizing that you may have some of those symptoms and that actually contributes to your DP and does not mean you have BPD. So instead of trying to diagnose yourself because you find you think in black and white, see what you can do to CHANGE the black and white thinking...talk to a therapist.


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

sleeping beauty,
I think your avatar has BPD! :shock:


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2005)

Just want to say that I was not trying to diagnose myself of anything.
I thought I had quiet enough issues.
For a very long time I realised there was something different about me,something that caused me a lot of pain.
I had described how I felt to several psychologists over the years but nobody gave it a name.One guy thought I was talking about shyness.

When I read about the avoidant personality it all clicked,I knew it was me,I knew it was what had been bothering me for so long.
I read other people's stories and thoughts.Many of them sounded like me.
I discovered that it's accepted that most avoidants had a childhood experience with abandonment just as I did.
This alone maybe not be the cause but I could see how I and others in my family fit the picture.

I have no idea weather it's a good idea for people to self diagnose.
I'm completely satisfied that I have worked it out correctly,although not at all satisfied to know the truth.
As for BPD I wouldn't know how to diagnose another person.
I do recognsise many of the symptoms in a close relative.This was recently mentioned to me by a psychiatrist after a dramatic episode.

Cheers Shelly


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2005)

find myself in much agreement with Dakota as i have little respect for most psychiatrists that I have met. I think that most of them simply follow "formulas" they were taught in diagnosing and trying to pidgeon hole a person in some particular category and then they give meds based upon where the client is placed within the "mental health spectrum. It is certainly not that in generally those who practice psychiatry actually possess a greater understanding of how the mind works than many other non medical types of people. As I have said before according to statistics that I have read "witch doctors" in more primitive cultures are reputed to have about the same cure ratio as western psychiatrist. I would be very careful about how seriously I would take the advice of a psychiatrist. Especially one who is in bed with the pharmaceutical companies. I know when one is desperate for psychic relief of pain one may become desperate and grasp at any straw that may be passing by.

At least analysts (Freudian) and analytical psychologists (Jungians) have had to undergo their own exploration of their unconcious minds, which in my opinion is of much greater value in their ability to actually understand what people in mental "disease" are experiencing as they have also been willing to address some of the similar issues within their own selfs as the patients do. I know from my readings of Jung that he felt it would be hypocritical of him to try and help someone if he hadn't experienced something similar in his own confrontations with the unconcious, particualrly in regards to the psychoses.

Todays doctors are actually still using the Newtonian mechanistic perspective of what it means to be a human being. And what is the nature of the Psyche. I don't believe most doctors have really much of a clue of how the human mind works so they look toward chemistry to try and explain it.

Well thats is just my opinion. I feel that pharmaceutical companies and many psychiatrists are simply using patients for experimentation. I find the whole medical/pharmaceutiacal paradigm to explain human conciousness to be somewhat horrifying and "icey".

john


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

This is my understanding of the human mind, feel free to correct me- its just my opinion, or way of making it easier to understand.

I imagine us to be like graphic equalizers.

Instead of bass and treble etc, along the bottom is each personality trait/behavioural pattern/thought pattern/defence mechanism. Aswell as positive ones, everybody would have a certain amount of black and white thinking, narcissism, avoidance, and all the other crap traits that make up the human mind. Most people, I guess over half, would rate pretty lowly on the negative ones. If you have faced any kind of psychological 'trauma' then you are likely to rate higher on the negative traits.

'Traumatic situations are events that violate our existing ways of making sense of our reactions, structuring our perceptions of other people's behaviour, and creating a framework for interacting with the world at large. In part, this is determined by our ability to anticipate, protect and know ourselves' (Mc Farlane and de Girolamo)

'A traumatic event whether it be objectively tragic or not, opens in the mind a corridor to the apprehension of our essential helplessness and the possibility of death. A traumatic stressor is overwhelming not because it is colossal - for it may not be to observers - but because it has a certain meaning for the individual' (Martha Stout)

In short, we develop faulty mechanisms in order to cope. These are usually during our developmental stage, though not necessarily, and as we get older, they are less likely to work and cause internal conflict. Or even external conflict. So we develop symptoms. OCD, anxiety, dp, depression and so on. These could be like a graphic equalizer too. We would experience some or all chronically for a long time and sometimes none at all.

I don't know whether diagnoses refers to symptoms or their causes, but I imagine that to make sense of the graphic equalizer (in order to medicate or document or make money :lol: ) if one or several parts of the graphic equalizer goes over a certain point and for a certian amount of time, we give that 'profile' a name. eg Borderline Personality Disorder. Although the symptoms/causes may be prevalent in other 'disorders' too.

Does that make any sense to anyone other than myself?!?!?!

From what I understood from Janine's post on Borderline States in the Other Mental Health section, can borderline not be a term to describe the level of manifestation of a symptom? Did it not originate from the idea that symptoms were either of a neurotic or psychotic nature, but there were some people who operated on a level that fluctuated between both?

I read that it is because (as part of a faulty coping mechanism not unlike splitting or black and white thinking) that those who don't understand their confused or numb feelings and over-the-top emotions, they change the facts. Most people have rational feelings in response to facts, but if your responsive feeling is inappropriate, you may subconsciously change the facts to fit your emotional response. Feelings fit facts versus facts fit feelings. ( A tongue twister for you all to try. Though not in public, you may be sectioned) I guess in extreme cases this may result in psychosis or delusions and hallucinations. So anybody whose symptoms frequently push the boundaries of impulsive or inappropriate behaviour and constant paranoia of being abandonned, may be classed as BPD.

I have seen this behaviour, it definitely exists. I have even heard the words spoken 'something just isn't right, there's like, something driving me all the time, causing me to do these things'.

Which is why people tend not to be responsive to therapy because like Janine says, these traits are intrinsic to the person, it is all they know, so look to blame other people for their behaviour. Extreme disorders quite often affect other people as opposed to the neurotic behaviour we all drive ourselves up the wall with.

It is difficult for any of us to recognise our faulty coping mechanisms because they are part of us, but I would hazard a guess that most of us here aren't 'disordered' to that level, so stand a good chance of recognising what causes our symptoms and dealing with them. Also, since our symptoms bother US, we seek help to get us out of the misery.

I'm sure there are flaws in what I've written and welcome any homework marking by Janine/ Dreamer et al!!!!


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Dear Sleeping Beauty, 
Thats a very well-written, well-worded post. Really, really insightful. I knew several women with borderline personality disorder and a couple doctors who treated it. Interestingly enough, the medical doctor I knew who did rounds in our psych hospital said that you can always tell a borderline from two things: They have a tatoo, and they carry stuffed animals around with them. I just thought I'd add this in to the mix- its not clinical diagnostical materia, but its an interesting observation she made.

Peace, 
Homeskooled

PS- I definitely beleive it exists. Actually, sometimes I think its UNDERdiagnosed. Personality disorders are a more honest approach than some of the medication "fixable" fad diagnoses. We usually admit that they arent curable, and the patient has to work on them. But if you ever meet a borderline, you'll know. They're seductive enough to draw you in, and when you get close enough, they push you away with murderous vengeance.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2005)

> They have a tatoo, and they carry stuffed animals around with them.


Too funny.
I dont have a tatoo and I dont carry around stuffed animals with me.

Also,



> They're seductive enough to draw you in, and when you get close enough, they push you away with murderous vengeance.


Its all very stereotypical Homeskooled. I dont recognize myself in this image. I do know 'them' though. But wanted to say there are 'lighter' versions of the Disorder (as I have). :wink:


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

Homeskooled said:


> But if you ever meet a borderline, you'll know. They're seductive enough to draw you in, and when you get close enough, they push you away with murderous vengeance.


thats me. ask anyone. :?

btw homie i didnt write all that it was a copy paste i got from the very first website i found on bpd. i dont carry around stuffed animals but i have loads of them real ones too lol. and i also have a tat. just one. wow im in trouble lol. :lol:

yea i have this appeal thing about me.. people are drawn to me but when they start grabbing hold i feel like i cant f#cking breathe. i like drawing people to me that part is fun.. but once i do i have no clue what to do with them after that. so i just start being a snappy horrible c#nt. its like.. cant you just dissappear now?? go on shoo!! ok now.. wheres my next victim? its very black widowish. very sociopathic. but im not PURPOSEFULLY trying to hurt anyone. its not a conscious thing at all. its all compulsive. i dont think i could be with anyone that didnt FORCE me to be with them. thats why im lucky i have gav. he doesnt put up with my nonsense.

i am starting to think this bpd thing is worth looking into. also the absence seizures. i see my psychiatrist on monday. well see what transpires from all this.


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Dear Wendy, 
I dont know about the teddy bear/tattoo idea, but I do know that the borderline I knew had a habit of cultivating friendships only to destroy them when her friends didnt live up to her expectations. Everyone gets dissappointed in someone they trust - its a part of life. But the way in which she handled it was different. I think this corresponds to what someone earlier said, that borderlines set up "idols" and later place them in the "dungeon". This doesnt mean that this is the sum total of who she was, or even that this was her defining personality trait. But I would say that this trait is listed in the DSM-IV as a possible symptom. To be honest, you never seemed to me to be borderline...but I do hope that the therapy has been helping you. As a person with the diagnosis, can you define it in a way so as to help me understand it better?

Peace
Homeskooled


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

Well, I have a tattoo and collect cute cuddly animals. Don't carry them around with me, but if staying away from home, may take the favourite one at that time.

I am now going to burn them all and get my tattoo lasered off...

Yeah the thing about putting people on a pedestal and then shooting them down in flames when they disappoint you is so true. It's that 'splitting' thing again - people are never just 'human' ie in that grey area, they are either a god or something on the bottom of your shoe. Again, I think it's something anyone can experience to varying degrees. It's very tiring to be on the other end of it as its so unpredictable.

There is a cycle to it. I can relate to it in that the fact that if a friend disappoints, by not calling for example, in my head I think well that's it, I'm not ever calling them. In fact they are idiots. But this only stays with me very briefly, it never actually affects my relationship with that person, as soon after I regain a balanced view. Soemone who suffers from this to a more extreme level would not be able to regain the balanced view and only when the other person does something to swing themselves back up onto the pedestal, the whole cycle can begin again. It seems that borderlines don't remember the other state of mind, the previous one that loved/loathed and each time are convinced they have the true point of view.

So in essence, is the main underlying cause of this behaviour fear of abandonment?


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2005)

At the risk of encouraging this very horrific sterotyping, I howlingly admit that I have a tatoo and often carried stuffed animals (now I carry a small dog)

LOL,
J

p.s. also, the defense Homeskooled is describing re: idols falling into hated objects at the drop of a hat is called "splitting" in which the patient tends to think in VERY black and white compartments - there are saints and demons, everyone is an extreme. It is a hallmark of BPD, but it also appears as a trait in other personality disorders and also in certain obsessive types or narcissistic types who are much less disturbed.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2005)

G-funk:
I lifted your post here, and made a new thread in the Freudian section called "How the mind works" - your thoughts were so interesting, I decided to make a thread about other people's ideas on how we humans think, etc.


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## dreamcatcher (Sep 23, 2004)

i am with you on this one g-funk.....i am going to have a great big bonfire...get rid of all my cuddly friends and get rid of my pretty butterfly tattoo if they mean i have bpd then to hell with them


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Hey John,

If you are reading this, I thought your last post was excellent. As usual, your posts are always well thought out and well written. Youve got this thing figured out. Im still amazed in our modern world that psychiatry as unprofessional and unscientific as it is, can continue to operate basically unchecked. Theres just too much money being made.

Joe


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

A few paragraphs I liked....

The attitude of psychiatry is that "we have advanced past the old and over-simplistic notion of man having a mind and a body, and that these two things are different." Well yes, actually and factually the MIND and the BODY are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS, with observably different functions and following quite different laws. They do effect each other, exactly how is not currently known, and while there are observable interrelations between the mind, body, and the environment, they each ARE fundamentally unique and different phenomena. Psychiatry would like us to believe "mental" disorders are all "physical" because this fits in nicely with their (ridiculous) theories of genetic and chemical-biophysiological causes for all "mental illness". This ideological slant and shift has led to a very incomplete picture of Man and society.

Issues in the Use of DSM-IV - "DSM-IV is a categorical classification that divides mental disorders into types based on criteria sets with defining features." A major problem with this is the application of modern psychiatric methods consistenty leads to different diagnosis and different treatments for the same patient by different psychiatrists! Why? First, because the supposed disorders have unclear boundaries, are not discrete entities in any actual self-existing true sense (read it here - they admit this), and people with the disorders don't necessarily even have similarities of symptoms and behavior (in their own words). How can anything be called "science" which exists and is practiced so inconcsistently from case to case?

Read first hand for yourself and discover the true nature of psychiatry as a very complicated modern mythology masquerading as "true science". Where else would one find "coffee drinking" (292.9 Caffeine-Related Disorder) turned into a mental illness! Smoking is now classified as a mental illness also! You'll find it under category 305.10 Nicotine Dependence, and 292.0 Nicotine Withdrawal. Yes, smoking does have an addictive aspect. No, drug addiction is not a mental illness! It's simply drug addiction - the physical and mental reaction to drug taking. "Withdrawal" is a physiological reaction to stopping the taking of a drug. It is not a mental illness either! Bur modern psychiatry has defined them, and many others, in such a way.

Of course, the greater the number of "mental illnesses" in the catalog (DSM-IV) justifies more psychiatrists, government involvement and spending, drugging of the public, electric shock, brain surgery and involuntary commitment. It is a self-perpetuating leviathan.

More "disorders" gives us more psychiatrists and increased funding of psychiatry, which then gives us more "disorders", and round and round it goes. Personally, I would like the merry-go-round to stop!


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

The dsm fact or fiction?

Psychiatric Diagnoses are names of "mental diseases", for which no proof exits. Link to Promises Promises Psychiatry is a business built upon a phony system of classifying mental illness which generates hundreds of fictitious psychiatric conditions in order to be able to label just about anyone, send the label in to the insurance company and get money for it. Link to Ridiculous Psychiatric Diagnoses. What is the source of the psychiatric diagnoses (labels) with insurance codes attached? -- The DSM IV (The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual). Using the DSM IV, a psychiatrist need only diagnose the patient with a mental disorder, prescribe a drug and bill the patient?s insurance or Medicaid. The psychiatrist with code book in hand tries DSM labels on the patient as if they were different sizes of apparel until he finds one that either fits the patient?s symptoms or comes close enough to allow him to bill more money.

Paul Genova as associate professor of psychiatry at the University of Vermont makes the following astounding remarks from "Dump the DSM!" in Psychiatric Times April 2003:

"The American Psychiatric Association?s DSM diagnostic system has outlived its usefulness by about two decades. It should be abandoned, not revised. . . . it is time for the arbitrary, legalistic symptom checklists of the DSM to go. . .. The aggregate is an awkward, ponderous, off-putting beast that discredits and diminishes psychiatry and the insight of those who practice it." Consider the fact that your clinical practice is governed by a diagnostic system that:

is a laughingstock for the other medical specialties; 
requires continual apologies to primary care doctors, medical students, residents, and the occasional lawyer or judge; 
most of our thoughtful colleagues privately rail against; 
insists upon rigid categories that often serve only to confuse and misinform patients and their clinical workers (sometimes abetted by televised drug advertising); 
is so intellectually incoherent as to raise eyebrows among the well-educated, critical thinkers in our own psychotherapy clientele; 
persuades the world at large that psychiatry no longer has anything of interest to say about the human condition. 
If it were within your power to do so, wouldn't you get rid of this system?"

At this year?s American Psychiatric Association?s 2004 annual Convention a symposium was held on the topic "DSM-V Classification of Personality Disorders: The White Paper and Beyond"

Dr Thomas A. Widiger, Prof of Psychology at the University of Kentucky was the first speaker. In his opening remarks, Professor Widiger said (translated into ordinary English) that since the introduction of labels for different mental illnesses (called syndromes), they have not been able to discover their cause; that no scientifically measurable test for these syndromes has been found and that studies of patients show they have more than one of these syndromes which contradicts any notion that the syndromes represent anything.

Here is the actual quote:

"In the more than 30 years since the introduction of the finer criteria ... to DSM III, the goal of validating these syndromes and discovering common etiologies has remained elusive. Despite many proposed candidates, not one laboratory marker has been found to be specific in identifying any of the DSM defined syndromes. Epidemiologic and clinical studies have shown extremely high rates of co-morbidity among the disorders undermining the hypothesis that the syndromes represent distinct etiologies.

Further translation: We invented it and now we can?t prove it exists.

Paul McHugh, chairman of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University, said of the profession's vaunted DSM:

"Diagnostic and Statistical Manual" (DSM) has "permitted groups of 'experts' with a bias to propose the existence of conditions without anything more than a definition and a checklist of symptoms. This is just how witches used to be identified." As quoted by John Cloud in Time magazine?s annual 2003 health issue.

Psychiatrist Ron Leifer describes the illogical, idiotic life he was forced to lead:

"Everyone is neurotic. I have no trouble giving out diagnoses. In my office I only see abnormal people. Out of my office, I see only normal people. It's up to me. It's just a joke. This is what I mean by this fraud, this arrogant fraud ... To make some kind of pretension that this is a scientific statement is ... damaging to the culture." - Ron Leifer, psychiatrist, quoted in Cloning of the American Mind, by Beverly Eakman, 1997

Psychiatrist Loren Mosher, resigned from the APA in disgust over the pushing of drugs and said in his letter of resignation,

"Finally, why must the APA pretend to know more than it does? DSM IV [the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, Edition 4] is the fabrication upon which psychiatry seeks acceptance by medicine in general. Insiders know it is more a political than scientific document. ... It is the way to get paid." Loren R. Mosher, M. D., Former Chief of the Center for Studies of Schizophrenia, The National Institute of Mental Health, in his letter of resignation to the APA

A further point often missed even by critics is that the diagnoses are cooked up and voted on by the members of the APA.

"Only in psychiatry is the existence of physical disease determined by APA presidential proclamations, by committee decisions, and even, by a vote of the members of APA, not to mention the courts". - Peter Breggin, Toxic Psychiatry

The bottom line is there is no science behind the mental illnesses foisted upon the public. It is however a system that has benefitted the psychiatrist and the pharmaceuticals because the more mental illness the more drugs are prescribed. As University of Minnesota, Bioethicist, Carl Elliot said in 2001:

"The way to sell drugs is to sell psychiatric illness."


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2005)

Just to add for balance here:

My brilliant psychiatrist earns about 1/5 of what the highly average lawyers I work for make every year.

If someone is very eager for lots of money, I highly suggest a career in law, not medicine.


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Oh theres plenty of shrinks that make big bucks these daze. The drug companies are the ones that are really scoring....


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

JanineBaker said:


> Just to add for balance here:
> My brilliant psychiatrist earns about 1/5 of what the highly average lawyers I work for make every year.
> If someone is very eager for lots of money, I highly suggest a career in law, not medicine.


Also, despite what everyone seems to be saying here. Yes, there are BAD psychiatrists -- absolute idiots. I guess I've just been lucky, but I've lived in areas of teaching hospitals which give all physcians a broader background in all illness.

A psychiatrist's education alone =
1.) 4 years of an undergrad degree with no less than a 3.5 grade average
2.) 4 years of medical school
4.) A residency in the specialty of choice which can range from 3 years to 7 years depending on specialty.
5.) Possible fellowship in an even more specialized area
6.) Board certification
7.) Lifelong required Continuing Medical Education (CME)

My psychiatrist I have right now is completing a residency and he is around 30 years old. He is making less than $40,000/year per a recent glance at the American Psychiatric Association's instructions for application to med schools, etc. The average doctor also works approximately 52 hours a week (this includes on-call for emergencies, etc.)

A psychiatric residency includes working with outpatients (as my psychiatrist is doing with me) as well as working with inpatients.

At any rate, very difficult to make gross generalizations. Though I admit I'm flabbergasted by the misdiagnoses some mention they've gotten. I've said this many times, all of my psychiatrists have recognized what DP was saw my anxiety and depression. Starting back in 1975. And I also see in myself certain borderline traits, though I don't have BPD.

*We are each unique. But each of us probably has a predominant set of symptoms that were unbearable enough to makes us seek help. Again, if there were no illness, there would be no need for doctors of any kind.*

Anyway found an interesting article re: research with monkeys who like BPD individuals have a stressful early development, and are particularly sensitive. (That fits me to a "t")

*Front Biosci. 2005 May 1;10:1-11.*

*The physiology and neurochemistry of self-injurious behavior: a nonhuman primate model.*

*Tiefenbacher S, Novak MA, Lutz CK, Meyer JS.*

Division of Behavioral Biology, New England Primate Research Center, Harvard Medical School, Southborough, MA 01772, USA. [email protected] <[email protected]>

*Self-injurious behavior (SIB) is a serious behavioral condition that afflicts millions of individuals in the United States alone.*

The underlying factors contributing to the development of self-injury in people are poorly understood, and existing treatment strategies for this condition are limited.

A low but persistent percentage of socially reared individually housed rhesus monkeys also spontaneously develop SIB. Data obtained from colony records suggest that the risk of developing SIB in socially reared rhesus monkeys is heightened by adverse early experience and subsequent stress exposure.

The present review summarizes the physiological and neurochemical findings obtained in this nonhuman primate model of SIB, focusing on monoamine neurotransmitters, neuropeptides, and neuroendocrine systems.

*The results indicate that monkeys with SIB exhibit long-lasting disturbances in central and peripheral opioid and stress response systems, which lead to increased levels of anxiety.*

Based on these findings, we propose an integrated developmental-neurochemical hypothesis in which SIB arises from adverse life events in a subset of vulnerable monkeys, is maintained by a persisting dysregulation of several neurochemical and physiological systems, and functions to periodically reduce anxiety when the levels of anxiety become excessive.

Implications of this hypothesis for understanding self-injury in patients with borderline personality disorder and members of the general population are discussed."

PMID: 15576335 [PubMed - in process]


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

DSM: Diagnosing for Money and Power
Summary of the Critique of the DSM 
By: Ofer Zur, Ph.D., and Nola Nordmarken, MFT

Summary of critique of DSM
DSM pathologizes normal behaviors and temperaments
Examples of groups that the DSM is biased against
DSM vs. The Village: An Alternative Inclusive Model
Selected bibliography

This critique of the DSM was inspired by Dr. Paula J. Caplan's 1995 book They say you're crazy: How the world's most powerful psychiatrists decide who's normal (Reading, MA: Addison-Wesley) and her more recent work with co-editor Lisa Cosgrove in their 2004 book Bias in Psychiatric Diagnosis (New York: Jason Aronson). 
Because most undergraduate, graduate and postgraduate courses uncritically present the DSM as an objective scientific document, this summary focuses exclusively on the rarely acknowledged critical view. It neither provides a complete analysis of psychiatric diagnosis nor denies that the DSM, if used cautiously and appropriately, can be useful, nor does it advocate against psychiatric diagnostic.

The primary goal of this web page is to promote critical thinking of psychology and psychiatry by presenting an important, however, rarely acknowledged critique of psychiatric diagnosis.

The following summary is derived primarily from the references at the end of the article.

The DSM has undergone a sociopolitical, economically driven evolution since its inception in 1952 when it emerged as a diagnostic tool for physicians who framed it in the medical model. Emerging from a psychoanalytic perspective, pathology was seen to reside within the individual, resulting in expression through neurotic conflict. Subsequent revisions in 1980 and 1987 evolved toward a more firmly biopsychological perspective. In a response to insurance companies' need for increasing specificity in diagnosis, we saw an increase in the number of available diagnostic labels from 297 in 1994 to 374 in 2000. The current criterion focuses on medication management of behavioral symptomology over psychotherapy. The primary elements that have survived all revisions are the intrapsychic focus and the power of political and economic agendas. Many clinicians are unaware that the DSM is more political than scientific, that there is little agreement among professionals regarding the meaning of vaguely defined terms and that it includes only scant empirical data.

The constructors of the DSM point to the following positive uses for its system of psychiatric diagnostic codes: It is helpful for clinicians and mental health practitioners as they construct treatment plans, especially evidence based treatment plans. It provides a consistent structure and vocabulary for professionals, which helps with communication and collaboration. It facilitates continuity of medical care and collaboration between professionals of varying treatment modalities. It is fundamental to most forms of current medical record keeping. It facilitates unified data collection for survey, pharmacological and other research purposes. It is instrumental for the compilation and retrieval of statistical health information. It simplifies the reporting of unified data to interested third parties, such as the World Health Organization and insurance companies.

Diagnosis of physical problems can be extremely helpful. In principle, psychiatric diagnosis can be helpful as well. Unfortunately, psychiatric labeling has been developed and applied in biased ways and has resulted in more harm than good.

The major concerns regarding the DSM.

Diagnosis of "mental illness" is more an art than a science. DSM-based research has repeatedly shown very poor reliability and, therefore, questionable validity. 
The DSM is more a political document than a scientific one. Decisions regarding inclusion or exclusion of disorders are made by majority vote rather than by indisputable scientific data. 
One telling example is the declassification of homosexuality as a mental disorder. Homosexuality was listed as a mental disorder in the DSM until 1974, when gay activists demonstrated in front of the American Psychiatric Association Convention. The APA's 1974 vote showed 5,854 members supporting and 3,810 opposing the disorder's removal from the manual. At that time, the American Psychiatric Association made headlines by announcing that it had decided homosexuality was no longer a mental illness. Voting on what constitutes mental illness is truly bizarre and, needless to say, is political and unscientific. 
External political pressure can result, apparently, in the inclusion of a diagnostic category. For example, PTSD was included in the DSM-III as a result of massive lobbying on its behalf by Vietnam vets and their supporters. Prior to that, PTSD sufferers were routinely diagnosed with character disorders. 
Due to a deadlock in gender politics, Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder (PMDD) was placed in the Appendix.
Unlike medical diagnoses of broken bones, lung infection or cancer, psychiatric diagnoses are not precise, accurate or objective. While different X-Ray machines, blood tests or scanning devices are likely to yield similar results for the same person, different therapists are less likely to come up with the same diagnosis for the same person. Psychiatric diagnosis is not an exact science. The differences reflect different theoretical orientations of therapists. Diagnosis, in psychotherapy, often depends on the eye of the beholder. 
The DSM is a powerful tool of social control, as its criteria is a primary tool used to judge who is normal or abnormal, sane or insane or who should remain free or be hospitalized against their will. 
Diagnostic inclusion in the DSM is influenced more significantly by the faction currently holding professional political power than by what science reveals. 
Psychoanalysts and psychiatrists, for example, influenced DSM-I predominantly and, thus, neuroticism was included. 
When medicating psychiatrists and pharmacological companies gained the upper hand, neuroticism and neurosis lost attention and anxiety became a primary focus.
The DSM perpetuates the myth that the medical-mechanistic model can simply be applied to psychology and that by precisely identifying and naming the problem, treatment and cure will follow. 
Over the years, as psychology, psychotherapy, psychopharmacology, the DSM, and the culture at large have co-evolved, varying diagnoses have taken center stage. Prior to and during the 1940s, the pre-DSM era, most patients were characterized as hysterics. In the '50s and '60s, the most popular diagnoses tended to be neuroses and anxiety. During the 1980s, Borderline Personality Disorder became one of the most frequently diagnosed disorders, while in the '90s, childhood abuse, eating disorders, Multiple Personality Disorder and PTSD became a predominant focus. Towards the end of the 20th century and the beginning of the 21st century Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, PTSD, Bipolar Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder and Asperger's Syndrome occupy center stage. The question then becomes, to what degree do these historical shifts in diagnostic focus reflect deep evolutionary structural changes in the nature of the psyche, and to what degree do these shifts reflect the ways in which diagnosis in general and the changes in the DSM has been determined by cultural and professional fads, driven by professional self-interest and the business economics of the psychotherapeutic and psychiatric treatment market, rather than by scientific process? While some of the changes are clearly driven by professional and economic forces, such as the increase in the number of available diagnostic labels from 297 in 1994 to 374 in 2000, that evolved in response to insurance companies' need for increased labels during that period, others clearly reflect the evolution of the culture at large. Hysteria, for example, was a phenomenon that, not surprisingly, appeared frequently in the repressed climate of Freudian times. Along the same lines, the proliferation of visual marketing media and the "thin industry" can explain the exponential increase in the number of patients diagnosed with anorexia in the last two decades. 
The DSM tends to pathologize normal behaviors. Existential anxieties, for example, are labeled "Anxiety Disorder". As a result, some kinds of normal and rather healthy anxieties are viewed and treated as mental illness. Similarly, shyness can too easily be seen and treated as "Social Phobia", lasting grief as "Complicated Grief Reaction", spirited and strong willed children as "Oppositional Disorder", fearful minorities as "Paranoid" and those who experience spiritual events as "Delusional". Consequently, many psychotherapists, regardless of their theoretical orientations, tend to follow the DSM as it is in their professional best interest. 
The DSM is primarily driven and controlled by psychiatrists, insurance companies and the psychopharmacological industry. Each group has a direct financial interest in focusing on individual pathology (rather than familial or societal), inevitably leading to medication-based solutions and shorter periods of treatment. The DSM has been referred to as the pharmaceutical companies' "bible," because without its coded diseases there would be no drug trials. Without medications psychiatrists stand to lose their place in the treatment hierarchy, and the DSM would loose its legitimacy as a necessary biological-medical tool. 
The American Psychiatric Association is the most powerful mental health enterprise in the world, and the DSM constitutes a lucrative business for their organization, garnering millions of dollars in revenue (including sales of tapes, videos, study guides, etc.). Their marketing agents enjoy a captive consumer base. The DSM is translated into multiple languages and is the key volume on mental illness that all trainees must learn from, including psychiatrists, other physicians, social workers, psychologists, psychiatric nurses, marriage and family therapists, addiction specialists and psychologists. 
The DSM tends to ignore contextual factors in the development of symptoms and disorders. Some professionals have suggested a replacement of current diagnostic labels with descriptors such as "the consequences of poverty," "the consequences of violence," "the effects of homelessness and racism" or "the damage done by interpersonal discriminatory treatment." The DSM provides an axis on which "psychosocial stressors" can be listed, but in reality, Axes I and II are the focus of diagnosis and treatment. 
The DSM focuses almost exclusively on individual pathology to the dangerous minimization of social and environmental factors such as poverty, racism, sexism, classism, heterosexism, ageism, violence, etc. This limiting focus has serious ramifications:
Therapists, who uncritically follow the DSM medical model, are likely to place undue emphasis on individual emotional problems as causal factors rather than opening to the larger possibility that the individual is symptomatic due to familial, political or societal system dysfunctions. 
Social psychologists call such exclusion of social factors and excessive focus on individual pathology the "fundamental attribution error." 
The focus on individual pathology leads to individual based treatment, suggesting that the DSM markets the concept of individually and biologically based social discomfort.
Drug companies fund, and reap the benefits of, a significant amount of research that is used to advocate new DSM diagnostic categories. Each of these new disorders corresponds to a drug (often new) that the company alleges can cure the symptoms of the diagnosis. 
Many labels in the DSM (e.g., neuroticism, paranoia) have not been supported by valid and reliable research to represent real entities. 
The DSM tends to pathologize several groups whose civil rights have historically been marginalized in the culture at large. The bias is clear in regard to race, social class, age, physical disability, gender and sexual orientation. Symptoms are a call for corrected balance. Rather than labeling the symptoms of a sick society, when appropriate, the client is too often diagnosed and medicated to adapt to the disease of the system. 
DSM pathologizes normal behaviors and temperaments:

Labeling normal behaviors as mental disorders financially and professionally serve psychotherapists of all theoretic orientations. Following are some examples of how the DSM turns normal behaviors and temperaments into mental illness. 
Shyness or normal introversion can be diagnosed as "Social Phobia." 
The individual process of healthy grief might be diagnosed as "Complicated Grief Reaction," if it lasts a tad longer that the amount of time specified in the DSM. 
Healthy, strong willed or active children are often diagnosed as having "Oppositional Disorder." 
Children who are restless, non-compliant or not academically oriented are diagnosed with "ADHD." 
Meaningful and healthy existential angst might be diagnosed as "General Anxiety Disorder" and medicated away. 
Those with feelings of hopelessness and despair related to the burden of social injustice and poverty might be diagnosed with "Depression." 
A person who attributes spiritual meaning to a powerful insight could be diagnosed as "Delusional." 
A woman who is not sexually aroused in relationship to an emotionally disconnected partner could be diagnosed as having "Female Arousal Disorder." 
Feeling jittery and agitated from drinking too much coffee can be diagnosed as "Caffeine Related Disorder." 
People, who for reasons of being abused, stressed, uninspired or who simply choose not to engage in sexual activity, are diagnosed as having "Hypoactive Sexual Desire Disorder (HSDD)," which is described in the DSM-IVTR. This disorder is characterized by a low level or absence of sexual fantasy and desire for sexual activity. The obvious question is, "Who decides what is a low level?" 
"Gender Identity Disorder (GID)" is another culturally biased diagnosis in which any behavior that does not fall within the rigid confines of the narrowly defined and preferred sex roles prescribed by most modern western cultures is pathologized. Consideration of normal developmental phases, playfulness and individuality are often harmfully discounted in this restrictive application of diagnostic criteria. 
Examples of groups that the DSM is biased against:

Pathologizing Women: 
White males have consistently and primarily constituted the dominant group responsible for the development of DSM nosology, deciding which behaviors are to be considered healthy and which unhealthy. Many have pointed out the following specific gender biases: attributes traditionally classified as feminine, such as the tendency to value emotional attachment and interdependence and the tendency to be cautious in expressing disagreement with others, have been codified as personality or other disorders. Conversely, traditional male gender role behaviors, such as autonomy and individualism, are seen as healthy and other behaviors, such as a tendency to view work as more important than relationships, is not codified as a disorder. 
In a clear gender biased approach, which socially stigmatizes women, natural changes in cognition and emotions resulting from normal hormonal variations are codified as Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder (PMDD). PMDD was invented as a diagnostic category even though there is no compelling empirically identified cluster of symptoms identifiable as PMDD, there is no link between symptoms attributed to PMDD and hormonal levels, nor does adjustment of hormonal levels affect the symptoms of PMDD. As with homosexuality, the inclusion of PMDD was decided by political process when its inclusion was decided by vote of the Legislative Assembly of the APA. Interestingly, just as the patent protections were about to run out, Eli Lilly introduced a new trade name, "Sarafem," for the antidepressant Prozac and markets it for treatment of PMDD. 
There are no parallel diagnoses of PMDD for men (e.g., TDDD for "Testosterone Deficiency Dysphoric Disorder"), nor are there gender-neutral categories for dysphoria related to hormonal imbalance. 
Research has shown that clinicians take at face value what male patients say more readily than what female patients say; more readily judge a female patient as being mentally ill than they would a male with the same symptoms; more readily judge women than men to be overly emotional; more readily prescribe mood-altering medication for women than for men; and more readily assume that women are more likely to require ongoing monitoring and treatment than are men. 
Pathologizing lower socio-economic class: 
The DSM ignores the real and valid concerns of lower class members, such as poverty and lack of social power. Reactions to these essential injustices tend to be pathologized and labeled as antisocial, psychotic or paranoid. 
Research has demonstrated that even given similar symptoms, members of the dominant class are more likely to receive a diagnosis of "neurosis," while those of certain racial minorities and lower socio-economic classes are diagnosed as "psychotic." The poor almost always carry the greatest burden of sociopolitical deprivation while receiving the least of what the social system has to offer with regard to treatment. The use of the DSM generally relegates them to diagnoses suggestive of individual interventions that include individual therapy and/or medications. 
Research has shown that psychotherapists are more likely to give a DSM diagnosis (i.e., to claim that the person is suffering from a mental disorder) to clients who are insured by managed care than to those who pay for services "out-of-pocket" and are more likely to be financially affluent. 
Pathologizing geriatric populations: 
The elderly are often isolated and disempowered in our culture. As a result, their understandable reactions of low self-esteem, feelings of hopelessness, helplessness, etc., are often routinely diagnosed as a mental disorder (e.g., depression or organicity). They are medicated rather than viewed as experiencing a normal reaction to social isolation and stress due to valid concerns regarding lack of available basic necessities such as food, shelter and health care. 
Pathologizing ethnic minorities: 
The relationship between power and dominance relative to psychopathology has not been considered in the development of the DSM. 
The emotional impact of social injustice and racial prejudice often results in stress related illness such as the increase in hypertension among African American males, as well as powerful emotional reactions. Yet, those who express appropriate rage and realistic fears due to experiences of chronic de-valuing, harassment and injustice at the hands of police and other authority institutions, are labeled as being paranoid or suffering from impulse control disorders. 
Depression, alcoholism and suicide are rampant in the Native American culture, whose members have experienced violent occupation and colonization by the now dominant society that diagnoses them. 
Characteristics that are normal to ethnic minority cultures have been pathologically viewed through the lenses of the upper class driven DSM. 
Members of many ethnic minority groups avoid contact with mental health systems because they expect their normal cultural conduct to be pathologized. 
Pathologizing children: 
The psychobiological perspective prevalent in DSM diagnosis, coupled with managed care driven pressure for short-term biological based treatment, has had a profound influence on the diagnosis and treatment of children. Results of multiple studies indicate that the use of Ritalin has tripled and the use of anti-depressants has doubled in the treatment of pre-school children during the last decade. The use of psychotropic medications, combined, has tripled in the treatment of all children less than eighteen years of age, during that same period. There is, of course, concern for the self-concept of a person who has been labeled as abnormal before he or she has even entered kindergarten, as is the case with an increasing number of children. 
Few studies have been done to show the effectiveness of anti-depressants in children, nor longitudinal studies monitoring side effects, and none of the SSRIs has been approved by the FDA for use in the treatment of childhood depression. The FDA, in fact, issued a warning in 2004 cautioning treatment professionals and parents to watch children closely for signs of increased depression and suicidality while on SSRI medications. 
As stated, diagnosis and treatment reflects the changing tides of political, economic and social trends. There is considerable controversy regarding the DSM criteria for ADHD which some refer to as a well-defined condition that lends itself to short-term biological intervention, while others express concerns that the diagnostic evolution of criteria resulted from committee consensus rather than as the result of basic scientific process. Some have called ADHD the fad diagnosis of these times, and many consider the great expansion in the population diagnosed to be a function of a cultural and economic phenomenon that goes beyond the objective reality of the diagnosis. Attention Deficit with Hyperactivity, or ADHD, diagnosis is often given without any regard to familial dysfunction and other environmental factors. Stimulant medications for the treatment of ADHD constitutes, by far, the most prescribed medication for pre-schoolers and children under eighteen years of age who are currently being treated with psychotropic medications. 
Pathologizing gays & lesbians: 
Homosexuality is no longer listed by name in the DSM, but therapists can still consider it a Sexual Disorder Not Otherwise Specified. Homosexuality was listed as a mental disorder in the DSM until 1974 when the American Psychiatric Association made headlines by announcing that, as a result of legislative vote by the APA, it had decided homosexuality was no longer a mental illness. The claim that it would be deleted was functionally false because the next DSM included homosexuality with which the patient was not fully comfortable. This could easily be considered a reality based "normal" discomfort for homosexuals growing up in a homophobic culture known for hate crimes against their population. The 2000 DSM-IV still includes "Sexual Dysfunction Not Otherwise Specified" and, similarly, "Paraphilias Not Otherwise Specified," allowing ample room for therapists to justify their personal or religious prejudices and "diagnose" a homosexual as having a mental disorder. 
The DSM has become a tool with which therapists can irresponsibly use their position of authority to distance themselves from their clients by labeling them as having specific mental disorders. As a result, therapists can hide behind a professional fa?ade, avoiding the reality that many clients are simply fellow human beings who are normally suffering from anxieties, sorrows and despairs, primarily related to the multiple imbalances of our modern culture and our endangered and endangering environment. Accordingly, the DSM perpetuates the myth of professionalism and superiority so prevalent among psychotherapists at the expense of those who seek therapists' help. 
Most undergraduate, graduate and postgraduate education neglects critical aspects of training in regard to the complex process of diagnosis. Few programs inform students that DSM diagnostic criteria generally lacks empirical support, that some criteria is the result of political or popularity "voting," that scientific method and evidence has been largely disregarded in its development and that issues such as gender and cultural sensitivity are grossly underrepresented. Ethical diagnosis is dependent upon a contextual understanding of the DSM as well as an individual therapist's values and biases. The current limitations in most training programs make it difficult, if not impossible, for the student or clinician to approach the DSM from a balanced perspective or to employ critical thinking in assessing the impact and utility of the tool. 
In Summary: Diagnostic tools can be very helpful in assisting people in healing and becoming healthier. The DSM is more of a political document then a scientifically based text. The very frame of the DSM is distorted by a primarily intra-psychic-individual focus paired with the relative exclusion of environmental, societal, political and familial concerns. Most clinicians are inadequately trained in its use, and used without the benefit of critical thinking, it can harm more than help. More specifically, the DSM discriminates against women, minorities, the lower class, the elderly, gays and lesbians or anyone who deviates from the values of the, perhaps well-meaning but biased, dominantly upper class white male political contingency that created it. The DSM is constructed predominantly by biological psychiatrists with strong influences from pharmaceutical and managed care companies. As a result, the DSM focuses on individual pathologies that are supposedly "cured" by psychotropic drugs. 
DSM vs. The Village
An Alternative Inclusive Model

The DSM is basically a tool that is designed to differentiate those who are considered healthy or normal from those who are labeled as sick or mentally ill, and there is a behavioral emphasis related to the clients' level of functioning in society. The construction of mental illness is a western cultural artifact, which can be viewed, in contrast, to the more organic and inclusive systems existing in many indigenous cultures.

Following is an example of a culture in which members who characteristically exhibit different and unique (not within the bell curve) behavior are treated in a respectful, holistic manner by the community system.

Here is an alternate view taken from Dr. Zur's experience.

"As a young scientist-limnologist, I spent some time in East Africa in the 70s. While my stated mission was to help several remote villages develop fishponds, I was more fascinated with the sense and structure of the villages. My mission to promote fish soon took second place to my interest in the psychological, sociological and spiritual dynamics of the village. I was swept up by the strong current that flowed through and around this collection of families, joining them in a circle of interdependence, acceptance and mutual support. This current embraced the strong and the weak, the good and the not so good, the healthy and the frail and the so-called normal and the different. And what a plethora of roles were to be found in this small village: the Grouch, grumbling and complaining and annoying everyone; the Clown who joked and mocked and brought laughter to every face, finding the ridiculous in any circumstance, teasing me mercilessly about my odd accent; the Witchdoctor who allowed me to observe him for days on end as he administered to the villagers and conducted the rituals; the Man-who-Talked-to-Trees; the Medium who communicated and interceded with the villagers' ancestors; and the young warriors, self-consciously leaning on their new spears, spending hours beautifying their hair and skin with red mud. Each was a treasured and colorful piece of the mosaic that made up this vital community. And to be sure, there were those who also occupied common basic roles, equivalent to our butcher, baker and candlestick maker. There were villagers who needed to be carried everywhere. There were villagers who needed to be constantly protected from harming themselves. Yet, the traditional village not only tolerated such diversity, they also, in fact, truly embraced and often celebrated the differences, offering a wide network of support for all. The village respected the roles and functions of the village shaman, the fool, the warrior and others who varied from the norm, providing them with food and shelter. Whether strong or frail, healthy or handicapped, each community member was supported physically, emotionally and spiritually. When necessary, special healing rituals focused on the mentally or physically frail."

It is likely that most clinicians entering a village, such as the one described above, with the DSM and a prescription pad under their arm might prescribe anti-depressants and cognitive therapy to the Grouch, calm the Clown down with a little mood stabilizing medication, and relieve the Witchdoctor of his ritualistic behavior with a cocktail of treatments for OCD. The Man-who-Talked-to Trees and the Medium could clearly benefit from an anti-psychotic medication and probably psychiatric hospital incarceration, while the Warriors appear to have some of the distinguishing features of Gender Identity Disorder.

Some would say they might benefit from these interventions, and then again perhaps a combination of approaches would be the ideal. That which may be considered as the most healing aspect of "village treatment" is the way in which the culture supports its different or "abnormal" members in finding their place and role in the village and identity and meaning in their experience. This is central to the definition of therapy and it is what we are most likely to lose if we allow it to be legislated away in favor of cost cutting procedures and an over emphasis on biological intervention.

Many clinicians have found artful ways in which to use the DSM as a tool of communication in service of the clients' ultimate well being. One must maintain caution, however, so that the distilled, conceptual jargon developed, in part, as a response to political, economic and social pressures does not confuse the larger contextual elements of truly helpful diagnosis. Used without benefit of critical, contextual thinking, the DSM can be unwittingly used as a weapon, perpetrating the violence of intolerance upon individuals and groups expressing diversity of many kinds. Diagnosis involves judgment. In the case of the DSM, a largely political piece of work, those holding power judge those who come to the attention of mental health professionals because they seem "different" than others. This document can be seen as a reflection of the "voters" values, biases, social status, privilege and power and as an agent of injustice rather than an empirically supported professional tool used in service of healing.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Also, I do NOT have BPD, though I have certain traits. I am currently in DBT therapy -- Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, first designed for BPD patients. Group therapy, for coping skills. I have certain borderline characteristics as I am indeed an overly sensitive person who came from a seriously "invalidating environment".

http://www.priory.com/dbt.htm

It was initially designed for Borderline Personality Disorder which I do not have, though I have some features, and had more in the past. BPD is linked to an "Invalidating Enviornment" (which is an understatment re: my childhood). It has been found helpful in someone like me who has had "damage" from the past. But it doesn't FOCUS on the past but the present. It is also influence by Buddhism. "Mindfulness".... and has been studied in clinical trials for some years.

*In a nutshell...*

*Dialectical Behaviour Therapy is based on a bio-social theory of borderline personality disorder. Linehan hypothesises that the disorder is a consequence of an emotionally vulnerable individual growing up within a particular set of environmental circumstances which she refers to as the 'Invalidating Environment'.

An 'emotionally vulnerable' person in this sense is someone whose autonomic nervous system reacts excessively to relatively low levels of stress and takes longer than normal to return to baseline once the stress is removed. It is proposed that this is the consequence of a biological diathesis.*

*The term 'Invalidating Environment' refers essentially to a situation in which the personal experiences and responses of the growing child are disqualified or "invalidated" by the significant others in her life.*

The child's personal communications are not accepted as an accurate indication of her true feelings and it is implied that, if they were accurate, then such feelings would not be a valid response to circumstances. Furthermore, an Invalidating Environment is characterised by a tendency to place a high value on self-control and self-reliance.

Possible difficulties in these areas are not acknowledged and it is implied that problem solving should be easy given proper motivation. Any failure on the part of the child to perform to the expected standard is therefore ascribed to lack of motivation or some other negative characteristic of her character. (The feminine pronoun will be used throughout this paper when referring to the patient since the majority of BPD patients are female and Linehan's work has focused on this subgroup).[/b]

http://www.priory.com/dbt.htm

The specific, goal-oriented program is based on four "Modules" lead by an ACSW and supervised by a psychiatrist I will see once a month as well. I also have unlimited to access to said psychiatrist for crises, etc. Phone support, etc.

"There are four primary modes of treatment in DBT :

Individual therapy 
Group skills training 
Telephone contact 
Therapist consultation

Whilst keeping within the overall model, group therapy and other modes of treatment may be added at the discretion of the therapist, providing the targets for that mode are clear and prioritised."
----------------------------------------------------------------

Since I'm not Borderline, I am working only in group with the supervision of a psychiatrist. The full process would include a weekly meeting with an ACSW which I don't need to do. It was determined that this is unnecessary for me at the time (I've had years of therapy already) and don't have all of the issues of treatment compliance, and suicidal tendencies of many with BPD.

The four Modules (one month each of four 1.5 hour sessions) are as follows:

*1. Core mindfulness skills. 
2. Interpersonal effectiveness skills. 
3. Emotion modulation skills. 
4. Distress tolerance skills.*

I can take modules over again, and one can join at any level. I'm starting with Module Four -- Distress and Stress Tolerance -- which is actually very applicable to my life situation at this time.

*The goal is no cure of my DP/DR, but better coping skills, that again I will be augmenting with Yoga at home. This will help with my negative black/white thinking, ruminations on the past, fear of the future, and working on LIVING IN THE PRESENT, one day at a time. (The Buddhist orientation.)*

I am also continuing my meds, and will continue to do so. The psychiatrist I saw for 1 hour recently is happy with my combo and doesn't want to mess with it.

Re: $ again. Surgeons I believe make the highest incomes in the medical profession. And again, this depends on the specialty. See the AMA website for details.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

And, no one said the DSM is perfect, but neither is the International Classification of Diseases used worldwide (all illnesses are included) it is in its ninth or tenth revision now. ICD-9 I think.

As medicine evolves, as understanding of illness evolves, so do diagnoses and treatments.


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

This is off topic but I had to know if the dsm-iv really had this ridiculous disease in it. Here it is..

DSM-IV: Female Sexual Arousal Disorder

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Women with this sexual dysfunction disorder experience inability to achieve or maintain an adequate "lubrication-swelling response of sexual excitement."

Diagnostic criteria for 302.72 Female Sexual Arousal Disorder 
(cautionary statement) 
A. Persistent or recurrent inability to attain, or to maintain until completion of the sexual activity, an adequate lubrication-swelling response of sexual excitement.

B. The disturbance causes marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.

C. The sexual dysfunction is not better accounted for by another Axis I disorder (except another Sexual Dysfunction) and is not due exclusively to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition.

Specify type:

Lifelong Type 
Acquired Type

Specify type:

Generalized Type 
Situational Type

Specify:

Due to Psychological Factors 
Due to Combined Factors

Reprinted with permission from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth Edition. Copyright 1994 American Psychiatric Association


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2005)

Homeskooled, Im an acting-in or as they call it quiet Borderline (or as a friend of mine described: a social Borderline).

I had a talk once with a girl who knows a few Borderline's and when I said to her that I have that as well she went: YOU? But you are not selfish and dramatic and hysterical!! That really made me laugh...LOL.
Goes to show that also in Borderline there are differences and people who are more affected with it or not.

Here's a link on what that exactly is, it also says something about DP:
http://www.aapel.org/bdp/BLborderquietUS.html

About your other question. I have many questions still as well about whats going on with me. Having a diagnosis is one thing, trying to understand myself and what that all means is another.
But I can relate to many Borderline-issues.

I found a link with lots of basic-Borderline information:

http://www.aapel.org/bdp/BLsyntheseUS.html

Maybe that helps.

To have the diagnosis Borderline PD you have to have at least 5 out of the 9 traits. So there's a lot of different possible combinations of these traits.

Wendy :wink:


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2005)

> A psychiatrist's education alone =
> 1.) 4 years of an undergrad degree with no less than a 3.5 grade average
> 2.) 4 years of medical school
> 4.) A residency in the specialty of choice which can range from 3 years to 7 years depending on specialty.
> ...


Damn the fucking fuck.

All that for prescribing prozac?

Ill tell you something: I once went to a psychiatrist in LA and he charged 300 dollars for the first visit, and all he did was prescribing me Paxil which made me slit my arms.

Whats worse, still, is that the prescription was based on a questionnaire that this psychiatrist was conducting reading the questions from a computer screen and having the computer evaluate my answers!
The fucking bitch!!

That's what he does based on so many years of education and training?
Giving out prescriptions using a computer generated questionnaire any fool can make on the fucking internet?

Seems the psychiatric system is even much worse than I thought it was!
I don't even think that those fucking docs believe themselves that their idiotic training is worth even a minute of it!

So many wasted years to an unsubstantial education to shape a psychiatrist whos job it is to make his patients lose even more years by making the patient's condition worse than even the most imaginative pessimist fails to envision?

The fucking bitch!!


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2005)

Something to add. I at times do 'act-out', but thats to learn to become a Normal Borderline. I can never seem to fit a 'normal' category, I always am a deviant (or a deviant of the deviant)..LOL


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2005)

Janine wrote


> We go to the doctor complaining about our symptoms - they are the things we want to get RID of.


I dont think thats healthy. Symptoms are there to counterbalance the underlying imbalance. That is, symptoms are the mechanisms to restore our health. Symptoms are unfortunately perceived as being the illness which is not true since symptoms are what keeps at least the most possible amount of health in a given underlying basement of imbalance.

So it is obvious that getting rid of symptoms means needing other symptoms instead of the ones to get rid of, but since the underlying basement that gives rise to symptoms still exists, this basement has to bring about other symptoms to restore the balance.

Since symptoms occur in the area of the personality or body which is most vulnerable and therefore a predetermined breaking point so to say, it follows that getting rid of these symptoms makes the underlying pathological basement long for another outlet(symptom) which has to take place by disrupting a much stronger area because the former breaking point is not available anymore.

Consequentely, if one successfully gets rid of symptoms, the body or personality has to break in much more indespensible areas ensuring much much greater distress.

Getting rid of symptoms without filling the void it creates is suicide, thats especially the case with psychological symptoms. Symptoms are necessary and should not be abandoned.



> The personality disorders feel "correct" to the person who has one. They don't think "what is wrong with me that I'm so black and white in my thinking?" Instead, they say "ANYBODY would be black and white in thoughts if they lived the life I've had!" The Personality Disorder is Intrinsic to the person himself...it IS him


Thats even true. Black and white thinking might be necessary in those who have had a very damaging life.

One cannot outline psychological behaviours and predetermine if its correct or not.
Saying a certain cognitive pattern is not correct is applying the principle of racism to the processes of the mind.

It is funny that the 'establishment' of psychology presumes that those suffering from so called disorders think their disorder is correct.
Because those patients insisting of being disturbed are considered to have a disorder as well, now in the form of not valuating oneself for example.

It becomes very obvious that empathy, respect and humanity are traits both psychiatry and psychology have yet to learn.


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## revdoc (Jan 2, 2005)

It may be useful to have broad catagories of personality tpes, including ones that lead to messed up behaviour but I don't think the idea of a 'personality disorder' is helpful at all. BPD in particular is a dustbin diagnosis used by lazy psychiatrists for women they find very difficult and don't like. No one should label themselves with a 'personality disorder' - to think like that about yourself is to damage your mind and sprit. 
I should add that many psychiatrists themselves reject the whole idea of these disorders. They're much less commonly diagnosed in Britain than in the US for example.

I wonder what label one might give Jim Carrey's character in 'The Cable Guy'. Or that woman in 'Single White Female'? Can't think of any more at the moment.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

I realize no one is reading what I'm writing, but it keeps me focused as I'm very depressed these days.

Wendy has tried to make the point that borderline personality can come in varying degrees of severity. I have some traits myself. I have had one or two psychiatrists suggest that it was part of my make up -- I exhibit certain symptoms, but the serious cases exhibit self-harm, parasuicidal and suicidal behavior. This brings many to the E.R. sometimes too late.

My mother was a psychiatrist, back in the lat 60's, 1970's, and early 80's. Since that time psychiatry has evolved. I keep repeating this as our understanding of the mind continues to evolve. We DON'T have all the answers now. My mother had a female patient who stalked her for 20+ years who was diagnosed as Borderline. She sent nude pictures of herself to my mother (hundreds of them as well as cards, valentines, baloons, singing telegrams at her office!!!) while simultaneously slandering my mother, libeling my mother. She repeatedly violated restraining orders. She phoned our house repeatedly and would hang up. She said she was in love with my mother, even though she hated her. She followed ME. She would wait in her car outside our house and scared the Hell out of our housekeeper.

This is an extreme example, but she clearly fits the profile.

People who are suffering, who can't work, who can't have relationships, who are hurting their families or themselves have to be treated by someone. That specialty for that is psychiatry. And again, I'm no fan of a good number of psychiatrists or other mental health professionals, but I have gotten important help from a number of them.

Also the group therapy I'm in now -- designed for the borderline -- is effective in many other disorders. And it is group therapy/coping skills. Something I could have used 30 years ago... but it wasn't available. And no medication is prescribed/discussed, though we all have our own therapists.

Here are current salary ranges I found for the Hell of it. Surgeons make the most money. *And doctors (unless some are receiving kickbacks) don't make money off of prescribing medication. The pharmaceutical companies do.* And for me, I need my meds. That's just me. A decision I will have to live with. But I'm doing better with the meds than without. And also, I have never taken a rec drug in my life.

There is also a reason for categorizing ALL illnesses. And the definition of these illnesses will be redifined, and REFINED as time goes on.

DP is a mystery for some reason to many doctors, and in our particular cases, the DP/DR is our most disabling SYMPTOM. It is difficult to describe. This is why again, I look forward to Daphne Simeon's book which will draw further attention to this "orphan illenss" which really isn't an "orphan" -- it comes with all mental illnesses and some neurological ones as well.

In the salary range of psychiatrists, many computer engineers make equal or higher amounts of money, attorneys as Janine mentioned. Businessmen. There is currently a drop in medical school applicants and nursing school applicants as there is a problem dealing with insurance companies, red tape, malpractice insurance, paying for one's office/equipment etc.

There are good doctors and bad doctors in all specialties. If you don't feel comfortable with one doctor, get another opinion, and other. It's worth your time and money.

Salary comparison/per year after training:

-------------Years 1/2 ---- Years >3 ---- Maximum/year

*Psychiatry* $149,000 --- $169,000 --- $238,000

*Surgery - Cardiovascular*
$336,000 --- $515,000 --- $811,000

*Surgery - Neurological*
$354,000 ---- $541,000 ---- $936,000

Plastic Surgery/Cosmetic surgery is also a biggie. And I find that a tad troubling. But it's a person's CHOICE to risk that.

*Survey includes base salaries, net income or hospital guarantees minus expenses January, 2002 - Present

SOURCE: Allied Physicians, Inc., Los Angeles Times and Rand McNally *Updated January, 2004

http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2005)

I read everything you write, oh, Hairball. Granted, you're getting the Recovered person reading it, lol..but it's a rapt audience of one.

Just to clarify: totally understand what Dreamer wrote (and what Wendy meant by different levels of borderline function)

Be aware that if a psychiatrist calls someone a "high level borderline" that might sound bad, but it actually means they are a HIGH FUNCTIONING borderline, and would fit that description of Wendy's on the "quiet borderline" (I've heard that term alot)

A "Low Level" borderline is very disturbed, and would behave more like the patient in Dreamer's mother's horrible example.

Didn't want anyone to be confused if they were ever labeled "High Level BOrderline" and panicked thinking that meant they were the Worst kind! LOL


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2005)

Where did my post go?


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Thank you *Janine* for indulging this hairball 8)

Also *Wendy*, I see posts from you after DJoe's post on female arousal problems, LOL, and then I think before a very long post. Don't think anything is missing there, just buried in long posts (yes many by me).

Wanted to clarify two things.

*In a doctor's residency training*

...various specialties take from 3 to 7 years. I should have said that a psychiatrist would probably have fewer years of residency (a minimum of 3 years) while a neurosurgeon might have 7 years of training. But a psychiatrist has a minimum of 3 years, and then might study a specialty such as geriatric, child/adolescent, etc. (or that might be incorporated into say a 4 year residency, you'd have to ask a doctor).

Also, if a psychiatrist wants to be a psychoanalyst he/she has to take that training as well. Most doctors' lives get going around age 30 something.

*Also Joe re: female arousal problems:*

Think of it this way. If a man is impotent it could be due to physical factors (medicine is finding this is most likely) and/or psychological factors. This would be true of women too. So, after a woman goes to her gynecologist and he finds nothing wrong, he might suggest therapy.

Some women have vaginismus sp? painful intercourse, or pain which even prevents intercourse. I belive in some women this can be psychological.

If a woman can't get aroused sex is painful or impossible. If a man can't get an erection sex is emotionally painful or impossible, etc. That DSM category simply reflects or rather acknowledges that women have sexual problems as well as men.

-----------------------------------------
Finally I was thinking of this... I commend all of the medical personnel in Iraq, in the tsunami disaster area, and other places around the world for their bravery and dediction. Therapists are there as well, as many are suffering from PTSD. I read that a good many are afraid of the water, etc., which has been their livelihood. And the children.... what can I say.

OK, I'm done. Time for dinner and hopefully some mindless television.

Peace,
D

PS, someone correct me if any of my info is incorrect. I was in a research frenzy earlier. :shock:


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2005)

Dreamer I wrote a post to Janine about the HighLevel functioning and DP being more prone to them than to low level functionings. That one has disappeared. I was just interested to know what she thought about that. Thats all. I never had a post just disappear. And I hadnt even seen DJ's post about the arousal.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2005)

I didn't even get to READ it, let alone delete it, lol...

Wendy, this morning I wrote a post and the board crashed on me as I was posting...it must now be in the Twlight Zone. Could that have happened with your post?

I have no clue, but will ask other mods.

L,
J


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Dreamer,

You feel one way and I feel another. I think you realize your not going to convince me of anything. I dont care how much training these quacks have. They could have just as well been trained in ghost hunting. Ive seen enough and experienced enough of modern day psychiatry to realize its unscientific and completely unprofessional. IA joke is what I call it. The problem is this joke can cause people alot of suffering.

I think the main evolution that psychiatry has made is the way theyve neatly organized their conjured up "diseases" in order to make themselves alot of money. They are certainly no closer to proving scientifically the claims that their profession is based on.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2005)

Janine, I dont know what happened.
Im sure it was posted, because I reread it after I posted it, about 20 minutes later. Then later I went back to look again and it was gone.
Sorry. I got paranoid (about REALLY having posted it in the first place at all..lol). :shock:


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## dreamcatcher (Sep 23, 2004)

wendy the same thing happened to me in another thread.....i wrote i posted i read and now its nowhere to be seen :roll:


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

i smell a rat. :x

this has been happening to me more and more lately. hopefully its just glitches and not some overzealous powertripper.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2005)

I vote for overzealous powertripper, because it happens to me a lot and my posts are irritating as crap.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2005)

Dreamer, a while ago I watched a documentary on TV about women
who have orgasms the whole day through. There is an official name for it, but dont know what that is. I had never heard about it, but it exists.
There was one woman, she couldnt be too close to the washing machine when tumbling, otherwise, well, you guess what..LOL. Doing the laundry became torture (apart from the torture that comes with it already..lol).

They dont have any control about it, and its purely physical.
Imagine that, the whole day through. That would drive me nuts.
And with everything that you do, you have to keep in mind WHAT you do to avoid any triggers. Hell.....


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2005)

I am glad to find out that my paranoia about the missing posts is shared by you guys. It seems to be a technical problem?
There have been more technical problems here lately.
Does any of the mods know how this can happen? :?:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Wendy said:


> Dreamer, a while ago I watched a documentary on TV about women
> who have orgasms the whole day through. There is an official name for it, but dont know what that is. I had never heard about it, but it exists.
> There was one woman, she couldnt be too close to the washing machine when tumbling, otherwise, well, you guess what..LOL. Doing the laundry became torture (apart from the torture that comes with it already..lol).
> 
> ...


*Wendy*, LOL, Heck, I wouldn't mind that at ALL! Yee Haww! :shock:

Also, I am innocent re: deleting any posts. I will say though, yes, sometimes when I post it "times out" -- as the Rev said it's what we have to live with now re: the type of server -- and I'll lose a post. Strange though that you saw something and it disappeared.

I cut and paste to notepad just in case something goes awry... don't think anyone is being deleted though.

*Joe*, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm simply making observations and responding to various people. I know we just don't agree... and so it goes. I don't have a lot of love for the mental health profession in general, and as you know that starts with my mother! But my father, gave me some sense of respect for the medical profession, for science, for research. I wish he were still alive to see how much thoracic surgery has changed, not only since he stopped performing surgery, but since he passed away, now almost 15 years ago at 85. My God, he would be 100 years old next year if he were still alive! Big age difference.

He saw a whole different era of medicine. The old fashioned kind. Before health insurance. And when people were more likely to die than not... of all sorts of things. He liked to call himself "The Old Country Doctor". He was a good man. I don't give him enough credit for that.

Well, just my POV.

Peace,
D


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

Wendy said:


> Dreamer, a while ago I watched a documentary on TV about women
> who have orgasms the whole day through. There is an official name for it, but dont know what that is. I had never heard about it, but it exists.


Wendy,

This sounds like an excruciating condition. I couldn't imagine going through an entire day, wrapped up in a kind of ravenously nymphomaniac lust like that. It sounds absolutely horrific. In fact, i'd like to help in any way i can. I don't suppose you know the name of the documentary you watched, or possibly the names and/or phone numbers of these poor unfortunate women.

s.


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2005)

I need to meet this woman. I would barely have to work at it. Just say 'hi' and my work is done. That is low-maintainance at its finest.


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

10% chance of that.

90% chance you will cure her.

:wink:


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2005)

Wow, you suck Sleeping. I hope a volcano erupts in your face.


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## JasonFar (Aug 13, 2004)

Now, Ziggo, that wasn't very nice, you piece of shit!

Jk, you're just a piece of crap.

Heh.

Just KIDDING.

Like you were.

Right?  :twisted:


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2005)

I am going to stab you with the Space Needle (a sorry excuse for a tower in a sorry excuse for a city). Burn Seattle to the ground. blarrrgsggggg 8)


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

a volcano is errupting but its going to go in the toilet. damn kimchee. :x


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

eeeeeeuuuuuuuuuuuwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2005)

gross! :mrgreen:


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

sleepingbeauty said:


> a volcano is errupting but its going to go in the toilet. damn kimchee. :x


...and so ended sebastian's long-standing secret crush on sleeping beauty...


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

why because i take dumps? news flash.. girls do that. and its not made of soft serve strawberry sorbet. another thing.. girls do have body hair. personally i have lots. me and chewbacca come from the same planet. and i also have a brain, and i can even beat you up. i also have gas and BO.

want me to go on?? :lol:


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Hey sb,

If hot women dont poop soft serve strawberry sorbet what do they poop? Maybe cocoa puffs or those little round bunny turds?

I dont think theres any doubt you have brain. Your wit and intelligence are pretty obvious. You never miss a beat. Thanks for the laugh!!


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

dakotajo said:


> Hey sb,
> 
> I dont think theres any doubt you have brain. Your wit and intelligence are pretty obvious. You never miss a beat. Thanks for the laugh!!


Well, well...doesn't take long before other suitors swoop in. Obviously a scat fetishist.



Benzomonkey said:


> and i can even beat you up


well, i don't doubt that. However, i must say that for someone who insults people as often as i do, i'm really quite adept at avoiding confrontation. Whenever someone challenges me to a fight (which, incidentally, happens almost daily), i merely reply: "Well, we can fight if you want, but you'll most likely contract AIDS." Works like a charm.

s.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2005)

You Canadians are quite sly at avoiding confrontation :wink: 
We Americans always have to prove we're tough...

...Otherwise we're secretly afraid that Britain'll colonize us again.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2005)

sleeping beauty your right, but the difference is this

Women With Class, don't make these things public, and actually avoid some of this stuff.

As far as body hair,, ehh, most fine females don't have much & if they do they wax & or shave it off.......

this thread turned disgusting very quickly


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## JasonFar (Aug 13, 2004)

I agree most women won't say stuff like "I just took a dump.", but I'd almost accredit it to their lack of personality than "class". At least Sleeping does it with some pazaa.


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

What's kimchee?


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

What's kimchee?


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

enngirl5 said:


> What's kimchee?


Overrated cured cabbage with spices that koreans eat for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and japanesse eat sparingly.

s.


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

cool. sorry for the double post.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2005)

JasonFar said:


> I agree most women won't say stuff like "I just took a dump.", but I'd almost accredit it to their lack of personality than "class". At least Sleeping does it with some pazaa.


Jason I know girls with personality who don't talk like that, especially around guys. But I work with a girl who doesn't give a fuck, she talks like that all the time & shes cute to, but how she acts is kind of a turn off.


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

ohhhh sb.. you are sooooo f#cking COOL. :lol:

you should know by now that i was not put on this earth to turn you on. i assume since you have so much as you put it "class" (lol whatever that is in your world :roll: ) you shave your pits and wax your legs and carve your pubes into a little heart?

unlike you i dont find nature offensive. if what i say turns you off so much.. why read my posts? you just worry about that stubble on your legs and that bikini rash creeping out your thong and dont worry about me sweetheart. im fine with what god gave me. and i dont mind sharing it. just like you dont mind berating people for not holding your same values (which suck by the way).

ok now you can proceed to 'GO OFF' in your usual chaotic manner blurting out nonsense. :lol:


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2005)

lol

Unlike yourself Sleeping, I am a very clean person. Beard always trimmed and lined up, shower at least once a day, always wear cologne & deoderant, clothes always match etc etc THATS WHAT FEMALES LIKE, AND THATS WHAT I LIKE.

I don't see anything wrong with a fine female taking care of themselves. Obviously your a sloppy mess who doesn't give a fuck, but im sure you don't get hit on very often anyways...

When i see a cute girl, with matching clothes, nice perfume on, hair well done, maybe some jewelery, thats a turn on, as it is for many MALES. Matter of fact most MALES would agree with me.

Sleeping you can continue to be sloppy, and if you do date guys, you probably date those weird indie rock or metal guys, with like faded Motorhead T shirts & Mullets, who wear cut off jean shorts and wear those big sun glasses with dirty Nascar hats. Can't forget the knock off Timberland construction boots, hahaha, aka WHITE TRASH

sloppy sloppy sloppy

your a Hawain girl gone sour


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

SoulBrotha said:


> lol
> 
> Unlike yourself Sleeping, I am a very clean person. Beard always trimmed and lined up, shower at least once a day, always wear cologne & deoderant, clothes always match etc etc THATS WHAT FEMALES LIKE, AND THATS WHAT I LIKE.


i think you meant to say SHE MALES sb. cause now all you need is a rainbow flag and youre set. :wink:


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2005)

I'm similar to SB on this one and I make sure to be groomed and hygeinic at all times. I can't go a full day without a shower and a shave. My ex-girlfriend had some crotch jungle going on and not only did I break up with her for that, i shot her in the face because she had poorly trimmed thicket.


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## Kelson12 (Aug 10, 2004)

Ya'll crack me up....ya'll fighting over some hygiene....haha

The SB battles are the best...SBrothavs. SBeauty

Soul...you and S Beauty should battle rap to end this beef!

Go on 106 & Park for Freestyle Friday!

Hawaii vs. Rock Island. That would be funny. Anyways.

On that note...I vote for good hygiene....holla!


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Why to shave my body hair during wintertime*, as nobody except me and my boyfriend can see it cuz of the heavy clothing? And my boyfriend doesn't care whether I shave my legs/armpits/whatever or don't, so it is my choice only. However, I must say I'd prefer if nature could have made women to grow hair only in the head and the eyebrows... Well, have to say another thing too: if my boyfriend complained about the growth of my body hair, I would start seeking a new boyfriend very soon. I think there are a plenty of more important things to argue in the relationship than the pitiful body hair.

* Indeed I see shaving one's body hair during snowy and cold wintertime pretty useless. I do it only if I wanna feel good, but many times I am so lazy that I feel better not doing it. I also understand the women who never shave their legs even during summertime - I think it is their choice to do that and it doesn't bother me at all, nor does it bother my boyfrend. And if there are those people who don't like seeing natural women, it is their shame. Indeed, to be honest, I'd prefer to stay as far away as I can from people who like to judge women bc of their body hair - I am no object, nor should be any other woman.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2005)

sleepingbeauty , please do not tire your mouth for nothing . he is not worth that.

i am doing fine , but when med's effect passes i feel down . but things have been going all right so far as i expected. tell me the things happening with you please.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2005)

i dont agree with you completely . naturally , in nature you say people with body hair and why shaving it ... i thought that many animals would like to shave their hair if they could . and indeed naturally they took off their body skin or hair and wear new clothes in seasons. and i may agree with you about winter you talk about .
best wishes.


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Can makes an interesting point...You know, just because we are humans and can make choices, doesnt mean that these choices arent governed by instincts. For instance, all animals groom sometime or another. I'm sure that the human shower or bath is a Mother Nature inspired idea and not just a "construct" of society. We have a subconscious need to stay clean and thus healthy. Although most dermatologists believe that showering 1-2 times a week is optimal for skin health. Too many showers washes away your natural oils, I guess....

As for shaving, men have always at least trimmed their beards. But beards, too, outlived their usefulness. During one of Caesar Augustus's battles in the first century, his entire unshaven army was soundly beaten because the enemy simply grabbed them by the beard, and decapitated them. This is why men in the miliatary are still required to be clean shaven. Not only is it hygenic, but it works best in hand to hand combat. So in a way, men have "evolved" past them. As for women, well, I dont think that trimming one's privates matters a whole lot in any practical terms. But shaved legs DO look nice....dont know if there's any practical reason for it, though, unless your a swimmer or track star cutting down on wind resistance....

Homeskooled


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## dreamcatcher (Sep 23, 2004)

women shave purely for vanity reasons.....its each womans choice if and what they shave as long as they are happy with it then there should be no problem....

....personally if i ever get facial hair id be straight to the beauticians for some serious hair removal...LOL....

....men get it so easy......

what woman would wont to look like this...










:lol:


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

dreamcatcher said:


> women shave purely for vanity reasons.....its each womans choice if and what they shave as long as they are happy with it then there should be no problem....


You said the Thing, I mostly agree.  But there's also the reason of feeling comfortable with me regarding shaving the privates - it makes me feel somehow cleaner. And shaving the legs - I just hate the feeling of wind blowing through the hair in my legs, so during summertime I'm pretty sure I would shave my legs even if I lived completely alone in the woods (when not being just too lazy, of coz.)


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2005)

point is, both FEMALES & MALES should be clean and keep up with their hygene. Personally I don't give a fuck what Sleeping Beauty does, or what she thinks or cares about. If she wants to grow a beard, than she should grow a beard, great.

but like I said PEOPLE ARE AGREEING WITH ME.

& who the fuck is CAN???


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

SoulBrotha said:


> point is, both FEMALES & MALES should be clean and keep up with their hygene. Personally I don't give a f--- what Sleeping Beauty does, or what she thinks or cares about. If she wants to grow a beard, than she should grow a beard, great.


I agree with you about the importance of good hygiene. But shaving one's body hair is altogether different thing than having a bath/shower/sauna. I guess noone shaves one's head bald bc of hygiene reasons, and I'm pretty sure the same could be said about other body hair. Shaving one's body hair - whenever it may grow - is connected with the reasons of feeling comfortable and/or vanity only, IMO...


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2005)

hold language .

but i can strongly know who you are from how you talk. be careful and think twice when you take my name into your mouth.


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## GavinD (Aug 10, 2004)

Soulbrotha, you ever call me white trash again and I will come over there to your 'hood' (pah hah ha :lol: ) and stick your brainless chav head up your arse, okay? At least I'm quite happy to be white and don't spend my life pretending to be a black man.

and as for sleepingbeauty, she is MIGHTY FINE just the way nature intended....for a man who likes REAL women and not superficial chav bimbos.

Gav


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Well said, Gavin.  Usually I don't join in these quarrel threads, but I've become tired of SoulBrotha's rudeness. Indeed shaving/not shaving one's body hair has nothing to do with hygiene, and that's why I do not understand at all SoulBrotha's attitude/opinions toward sleepingbeauty...


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

I just can't believe that this whole thread has devolved into this hairy mess. Not that i mind. I'm a bit of a post-count whore, and i love the fact that i've started a thread that may well be heading into the double digits in terms of page count.

As far as all this hygeine tomfoolery is concerned...i consider it a courteous gesture when a woman shaves herself...it certainly wouldn't be the deciding factor in perpetuating or terminating the relationship, but it's like not having bad breath...or not having body odour. There's a certain level of respect a woman must have for my tender sensibilities...and i more than reciprocate by having respect for hers.

In any case, we all float on all right...

s.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2005)

GavinD said:


> Soulbrotha, you ever call me white trash again and I will come over there to your 'hood' (pah hah ha :lol: ) and stick your brainless chav head up your arse, okay? At least I'm quite happy to be white and don't spend my life pretending to be a black man.
> 
> and as for sleepingbeauty, she is MIGHTY FINE just the way nature intended....for a man who likes REAL women and not superficial chav bimbos.
> 
> Gav


lol

yeah come to my HOOD, do it, i don't give a fuck, I don't care what your emotional problems are, you come here, your gonna be leaving with alot more.

" Trying to be black" haha, yet another IGNORANT statement. Thats like me saying all English people are " snobs" or " ****". You don't know me, im not trying to be black at all. HOW CAN YOU BE A COLOR??? I SERIOUSLY WANT AN EXPLANATION FROM YOU GAVIN, EXPLAIN TO ME HOW IM TRYING TO BE LIKE A RACE?? TELL ME.......

You fuckin dumb shit, WHEN YOU GROW UP IN THE FUCKIN CITY, YOUR GONNA BE A PRODUCT OF YOUR ENVIRONMENT, NO MATTER YOUR COLOR. I know ASIAN KIDS who are THUGGED OUT and who will pop one in your fuckin face. Its not about RACE OR COLOR its about WHERE YOUR AT. I didn't one day say hmmmmmmmm " let me try to be black" haha, I am who I am, mainly because of Hip Hop and because of where I live and my friends. Your racist comments are fuckin rediculous, ask ANY of my black, white, spanish etc etc friends if im " trying to be black" and they will laugh in your face.

You just don't get it because your some suburban psuedo indie rock nerd, who will NEVER understand the Hip Hop culture or the Street culture.

I can't believe that theres close minded people on this site, of all places, but I guess IGNORANCE exists everywhere.

if Non Phixion go to England go to one of their shows & tell them that they are " trying to be black" and watch what happens, HAHA,

Ninnu I don't care if you find my comments to be " RUDE" im simply speaking the TRUTH. Ask any man if he likes his females to be clean, and of course he's gonna say yes.

Im a truth speaker, alot of you wanna hide behind DP/DR or whatever your problem is, FUCK THAT, this shit aint life

if Non Phixion go to England go to one of their shows & tell them that they are " trying to be black" and watch what happens, HAHA,


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Now kids.....
I'm locking this, as this is clearly no longer a main forum topic. It may be moved to "That's Life" in a bit.

Sebastian you started a great post.

But it has gotten a little ... hairy? :roll:

Edit:

May open this, or someone else will if the hair-slinging subsides. Also wanted to say that Homeskooled made an interesting point about the biological/anthropological roots of hair on various parts of the body.

Also, odors, and um, the placement of hair on the male and female body attract members of the opposite sex.

Since I will take advantage of having the last word temporarily....

I defy any man to have your hair ripped from your privates with wax or anything else. I refuse to do it, unless I'm in a swimsuit competition. and that ain't gonna' happen.

My God we judge each other so much with out even meeting each other.


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