# CURED in 2 days



## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

I'm free from depersonalisation. I did The Work, in the last two days....and it's completely cured me from depersonalisation, the world now looks real and I feel real.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2008)

Thats great what did you do?


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Congratulations, What work do you mean?


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2008)

I looked through Rozanne's old posts I think she means this http://www.thework.com/thework.asp


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

well it was so easy, a little painful, but easy. it's called "The Work", by a pragmatic spiritual teacher called Byron Katie. Here are some further links:

http://www.thework.com/index.asp - her official site - lots of very good videos highly recommended

Videos on youtube of Byron Katie:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=byron+katie&search_type=

It really works. You'll have to find out about it yourself, but basically she had an enlightenment experience then realised that believing our thoughts was the cause of all suffering, our thoughts disagree with reality. She says "confusion is the only suffering in this world"> see for yourself!


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2008)

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## Guest (Apr 16, 2008)

Well done.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

I have the derealisation mainly in the evening. I am a bit derealised tonight, but feeling much more energetic physically. The Works is a tool I'm gonna use in the future. Although her slogan "who would you be without your story" also scares the shit out of me! Who would I be! No one! I wouldn't be me! Don't know if I'm ready for that yet haha...it's almost too liberating for words...Byron Katie is said to be enlightened in some way, but I still wonder about her and whether enlightenment, true enlightenment, permanent, really exists....

Spirit, when you decided to follow the Buddhist path, or recognised your nature as Buddhist, were you convinced enlightenment did exist as an actual phenomenon?? I'm dipping and diving over what I think about enlightenment. I want to believe it is true, but my conceptual mind can't align enlightenment with not knowing what the purpose of existance was in the first place. This mystery causes me a lot of distress. The way Byron Katie is putting it across, the purpose of life is to live, to be happy and equal...is that enlightenment. Could one get properly enlightened through this method, do you think? I wonder, anyway.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2008)

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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

thankyou, blessings as well, love.


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2008)

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## Guest (Apr 18, 2008)

Great to hear you are recovered, I've read the work shti before, to me , it's general, it's common sense and self reflection, nice it worked wonders on you

As for if enlightenment exist: no.
It's been done extensive research into this topic by neuroscientists, psychologists and alike.
Tests show that what happens in the brain when people feel "one" with the universe is that "self conscious" part of the brain shuts down, almost identical to some drugs. So it's all an illusion.
Many of the "sages", the most famous ones like, Jiddu Krishnamurti and Mariachi suffered eplepsy.
A follower who was taught by them in person, UG Krishnamurti, pursued the enlightenment for 12 years and figured out it was all bullshit.
Crap, and turned atheist.

Now you may ask; "whats the dangers of a little mystery and "excitment" in the daily life? why do you bother so much?"
Cause I care, first issue is the major ones:
The dangers is side effects like DP/DR, Psychosis etc. not to mention how stupid, empty and failure you'll feel after so many years wasted on chasing a thing that never existed in the first place except in your own mind.
Then there's the money and health issue, so many BILLION DOLLARS are used on scamartists, be it astrologiests, hypnosis, dream interpretation, faithhealers psychics, mediums, homopathy, acupuncture, crystal healing, soul cleansing, soul retrivial, shamanism, religious donations +++++ and all the methods, books (The Secret, The Moses Code and 1000 others). Now keep in mind, all the money spent on this, is BULLSHIT, NONE OF IT EXIST OR IS PROVEN, ACTUALLY ITS DISPROVEN, AGAIN AND AGAIN.
Now "why care? it's our money" yea sure, it's your life too, I would gladly stand by and witness you jumping from the bridge crying "THERES NO POINT TO LIFE" without trying to talk you out of it". Wouldn't that make me guilty ? In a sense yes, so therefore I care.

Then you got the health issue: people who because of religious belief think doctors are evil, or that BIG PHARMA is dangerous (sure, many drugs are bad, veeery bad, but scientific methods ALWAYS beat voodoo, cause atleast there's SOME effect, the voodoo has NONE effect...

I could go on and on, my basic point is: the cure is within you, step the fuck outta your shell...
if you want life back, stay the fuck away from pseudophilosophy and TAKE YOUR LIFE BACK.

Visualize this disorder as a thief (kinda like all those con artists I listed above who steal your money) except this disorder steals your mind and life.
Take it abck, say fuck it, and go outside.
Live life, now summer's around the corner, enjoy it for once....

"yadayadaydaydayda" I KNOW its the most repeated saying on thsi forum, but it is because the only way people ever cure, is by letting go and taking their life back...

Buddhist teach a lot of good things, but their rejection of realism is dangerous, I would say, way more dangerous than islam.

Also for more on thsi subject:


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2008)

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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

....ok, The Work, is a way of questioning the mind. It is, therefore, a method, and no different to logic or CBT, so I'll write about it here!> I do feel more clear since doing it. As far as I can see, if some of these clouds shifting, is anything like knowing the ineffible quality of life, underneath my ego, then there is nothing about it which involves rejection, of any kind whatsoever, other than the letting go of thoughts. I've been using it to challenge thoughts about my body. Since I was about 4, I believed my body was weaker than others. The Work is just saying "is it true". And by saying, well I don't really know, my soul opens a little to its existance.....if Buddhism is anything like this, it isn't against realism at all, but embraces it. Because all of the thoughts, all the theories, of science, in themselves, are not real. Even science itself professes itself to only be "the creation of models". Hence, lack of realism. Science is the map, mapping out the territory, it isn't the territory. The whole point of Buddhism/Zen/Work is to get rid of the maps and be your life, and hence, to be real. And in so doing, you realise that all the maps in your mind create separation, fragmentation of reality, instead of embracing the continuum, which by the way, is provable through mathematic models, duh....Fuzzy Thinking, Fuzzy Philosophy...how do you distinguish between pseudo-philosophy and philosophy??? You probably can't! What makes philosophy philosophy? It's all ideas and logic...there are no rules other than that you arguments can stand up to other people's. But in philosophy you can more or less say anything you want. As Neitzsche said, when he argued it through with people, eventually he would find that each man had a secret indulgence in thinking, a secret MOTIVE or agenda, which supported his logic. He used to say something to the effect of "here comes out the ass and it's so beautiful!" refering to some custom of displaying an animal or something.

So even famous philosophers can have, on analysis, a root philosophy which cannot be completely proven, but for which they are strangely fond. The difference between that, and Buddhism, is that Buddhist approach can actually be tested, in the "lab of the soul". If you find it liberates you from suffering, it liberates you from suffering! I don't really care what part of my brain is shutting off, whatever it was, it needed to be switched off!

As I read recently, a man say of 12 step program "some people say that you get brain-washed in the 12 step program....well my brain NEEDED a good clean!".


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2008)

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## Guest (Apr 18, 2008)

Hey Spirit.

I think I'm doing a little better, you know, taken the first steps on the long stairway to sanity.
Lately I been pushing myself outside a lot, travelled long distances, stayed with friends in other big cities with hundreds of thousands of people.
Trying to do some self dicipline, partying a lot, concerts, making music, exercising, eating.
Yet I got a long way to go. Nice of you to ask
Actually, last night I dreamt of my exgirlfriend, wokeup and felt this intense feeling, you knwo how you feel when inlove, it's the first time experiencing emotion in godknows howlong(hedoesntexistno).
Anyway, it dissapeared once I became fully awake again, that's the sad part.
but atleast it let me feeeeel emotions, I started questioning if I had ever had emotions after being numb for so long and having my mom tell me "OFCOURSE U FEEL EMOTIONS EVERYONE DO, YOU JSUT FOOL URSELF".
It was like what you guys would call a spiritual experience and I'd call a experience full of life, cause emotions is the colors of life.
Eventhough me and my ex isn't together just feeling the FEEELING of love towards her was so great.
Now I just hope oneday I'll feeeel these emotions 24/7 again.

How you doing these days?

I think the reason everyone saw me as the "devil" on here was because at the time I'm so frustrated over shit.
I'm not here to disrespect any of your waste of money, it's your choice, just do yourself this favour: research the topic in SCIENTIFIC and SKEPTICAL discussions, these people has NOTHING to gain from investigating the claims made by voodoo wowooooooo scamartists.
They do it from the good of their heart to try to regain sanity in society.

sure science is flawed, I often hear quantum mechanics is misused "there is no spoon", "there exist multiple universes" blablabla.
this is bullshit, sure you got the Many Worlds Interpretation, Copenhagen (observer dependant reality) but there is so many flaws, trust me i've studied these topics for the last 4-5months and had daily contact with the top of the field, even people who had conversations with einstein at young age and John Stewart Bell and other famous people in physics.

I myself believe in Bohmian interpretation of quantum mechanics, cause it restores classical physics from the sciencefiction voodoo shit that violates theorems and inequalities.

Anyway thats a whole different topic.

What I meant by Buddhism rejecting metaphysical realism is that it states mind is all, metaphysical realism and perceptual realism states the mind is nothing but physical and the world exist COMPLETELY without it.
There is a real world that we interact with directly with our senses.

Buddhism rejects this. That was my statement.

And so I'm not misunderstood, I'm not a crazy narcissitic materialistic non"spiritual" being.
For me, the sunset is a spiritual feeling, music is like being "one with god" or whatever you'd call it, love is, sex is.
I just don't claim there's anything MAGICAL behind it. it's all natural, and there is no god, doesn't take any joy out of joy, joy still exist

And as for contact with Mark, sorry, I think he went mad on me, I just pointed out he was way too paranoid when he started telling me his grandmother wanted to have him killed and he could see it in her eyes and believed he could control people with his thoughts from distance. All signs of serious delusions.
I didnt mean to insult him, hopefully he's at a institute or atleast under healthcare.
I cared for him, then he disrepsected me in ways no decent or even just rational being would ever do and I said fuck him.
wish him all the best though


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Spirit said:


> I just want to clarify that I would not call or class "The work" as Buddhist.Im glad it worked for you Rozanne trully I am,it makes me happy when others are progressing well ,but I dont like it when so called spiritual teachers take a combined handfull of basic psychology and cirtain religious concepts and coin it as some special technique that is "theirs" to teach.
> Secondly if she is so against non aversion to anything ,then why get rid of thoughts,buddhism teaches-non alteration of thoughts-leaving them in themselves with clear pristine awareness ,which is non atachment and non aversion so that we can see their real nature.
> Spirit.


Byron Katie doesn't teach being rid of thoughts, only not believing in them. Its helps me to feel open, so I am assuming a little of my true nature, or a truer nature is becoming more conscious, although, as you say this isn't the Buddhist Path....I just draw a link between the philosophies because I see this as reducing mental attachment, or questioning it.


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2008)

This is indeed just about ready to be moved to the spiritual forum, but I had to respond.

I discussed Buddhism, DBT, etc. as I have tried to practice it. Zen, and the followings of Thich Nhat Hanh particularly.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14992

Copeful, you said:


> Buddhist teach a lot of good things, but their rejection of realism is dangerous, I would say, way more dangerous than islam.


I don't know where you get "rejection of realism" -- I don't even know what that means really.

Buddhism practice as I practice it (and I'm very bad at it) is LIVING IN THE PRESENT (THAT IS ENLIGHTENMENT). That's it. In an incredibly simple nutshell. We try not to dwell in the Past, try not to fear/contemplate the Future and what horrors may come.

Also, clearing the mind only means to kick out negativity. Kick out thoughts of analyzing one's self. Kick fears out of one's head. It is WORK. Those who achieve this completely, well I would call it enlightenment. THAT NONE OF US ARE SUPERIOR TO ANYTHING ELSE IN THIS WORLD, THAT LIFE IS FLEETING. WE EACH MAKE OUR SIMPLE CONTRIBUTION. IT IS THAT SELFLESS UNDERSTANDING -- NOT DENYING REALITY -- THAT IS KEY.

Also, there is a need to "de-clutter our lives." To worry less about possessions. Things like that are meaningless. We try to control, to "hold on" to things like wealth, power, ideologies, self-destructive behavior. We strive to let these things go. For years, for me it has been a desperate need to be famous in one way or another, else I'm a total failure. My healthy friends can't even comprehend that concept.

*I could say that I have a number of healthy friends, many actually, who are successful and happy ... in their late 40s and 50s ... who well, I could say they ARE enlightened in this manner. Life throws crap at you. They know that, but they take it as it comes. They don't sweat stuff as we do. But this is our nature. I'm not talking about people who don't give a hoot about anything, I'm talking about people who go to work every day, do the best they can, take care of and love their families, engage in positive social activities. I know many such people from full-time Moms who volunteer for things, to doctors, to some famous people you may know. And I also know people who live extremely simple lives, with very simple jobs who live this way as well.*

They have been hit with tragedy -- no one is exempt. But they take it in stride, don't dwell on it, they take one day at a time.

It isn't easy for those who've come from dysfunctonal homes, or have a mental illness. But this type of thinking can help any type of sick person as well as a healthy person who is stressed out, etc.

I don't see this as a cure all (though Rozanne I'm glad it is helping you) by a mile. I don't see any ONE thing as a cure all for ANYTHING.

*As I put in the other section (Alternative Therapies), Hanh says, and I think this is the key:

"I long to accomplish a great and noble task, but it is my chief duty to accomplish small tasks as if they were great and noble. We have to learn to live happily in the present moment, to touch the peace and joy that are available now."*

If that isn't a way to get through this DP/DR garbage, or cancer, or the death of a child, or loss of a job, I don't know what is.

*Also, Buddhism is not theistic, and to equate it with Islam is ... well that's like comparing a cow with a mango, LOL. Completely off the beam there, I'm sorry. Islam is a tremendous integration of religion and ritual, spiritual THEISTIC belief in Allah (Buddhism is NOT theistic), and an integration of the religoius/spiritual into social and politcal life. Fundamentalist Muslims are those of concern. And extremists of any type of religion -- and that includes politics, faith, etc. is what is dangerous. Buddhism would be the complete OPPOSITE of most of this. And for instance, I have no problem with the Mormon faith, though it is a tad strange, but FUNDAMENTALIST MORMONS who are polygamists and marry girls of 13 -- well that bothers me.*

I can't see how you can see these two things as remotely similar. What is interesting is recently Tibetan monks are protesting the Olympics because Tibet has been taken over by China. The Dalai Lama who was tossed out of Tibet years ago does not agree with type of activity, a mixture of the religious/ NOT SPIRITUAL and politics. In theory a true Buddhist will not integrate "lamasary and state". We attempt to separate Church and State. Islam is far more integration of Mosque and State -- though Muslim women are trying hard to change some of this, their theoretical "station" in life as dictated by Islam.

At any rate. As I always say, what works for anyone with this miserable affliction or any pain life dishes out, bless 'em.

I seriously don't know how you could compare Islam with Buddhism! And I have nothing against Islam!

Cheers at any rate.
Just had to have my say.
D


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2008)

PS: The Buddhist -- as I understand this through Thich Nhat Hanh -- strives to FIND reality, not eliminate it. Clearing the mind is to be 100% in touch with one's body, nature, life. Being mindful means paying 100% to each task and not give in to distraction.

When meditating the goal is to see all the nutball thoughts running through your head, and IGNORE them. To find peace in a silent mind that is always judging, analyzing, criticizing, planning.

The Buddhist is a-political. The Islamic Fundamentalist is invested in politics. I would find it highly unlikely that a Buddhist would "preach Buddhism", the Dalai Lama does not encourage people to follow that difficult path but to find comfort in its simplicity. It isn't like someone of an evangelical Christian Church. But if people blow themselves up in the name of Allah -- that is a far different kettle of fish!

Books by Hanh:

The Miracle of Mindfulness
No Death, No Fear
Living Buddha, Living Christ (no this is philosophical, but Christ, not Christianity has similar concepts)

He's written TONS more.

And I could scream. The Dalai Lama is in my Uni town as I type. I couldn't get a ticket! Sold out in about 2 seconds. This is in concert with Earth Day coming up. And no, I'm not a hippie, LOL. But I see the value in this thought. Its value in terms of my health and well-being, though again it takes WORK, and not many can achieve a pure, clear head like this, and DP/DR make it extremely difficult as we are "disconnected from our Selves/the world" we are NOT CONNECTED.

Well, if this needs to go the the spiritual forum at this point I understand! But it is an important topic as it is used in Dialectical Behavioral Therapy which was created for Borderline Personality Disorder. I have had 4 months of intestive DBT ... at my University, which is extremely medically oriented.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

I know you have been in therapy for years S, but before you throw the baby out with the bath water, try looking at The Work, it works....fast. Very fast.

Cure is a silly/absolute word. But I am more aware of my body and feel less attached to the usual things, that's got to be good....I believe this could be a great method alongside usually spiritual practises, because it helps throw out some of the mental clutter, or reduce its effect on one's behavior.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2008)

Rozanne said:


> I know you have been in therapy for years S, but before you throw the baby out with the bath water, try looking at The Work, it works....fast. Very fast.
> 
> Cure is a silly/absolute word. But I am more aware of my body and feel less attached to the usual things, that's got to be good....I believe this could be a great method alongside usually spiritual practises, because it helps throw out some of the mental clutter, or reduce its effect on one's behavior.


First of all *Copeful*, I don't think you read my post. Buddhism is NOT spiritual. Spiritual implies FAITH IN A DEITY, religion is a philosophy, a set of rules at how to approach life. Routine is religion. I won't explain this further as if you don't understand I will lose my mind, LOL. But that is OK. :mrgreen:

*Dear Rozanne,*

*I did have a look and honestly, it is virtually identical to Marsha Linehan's work, only she has studied DBT/Buddhism in BPD patients for nearly 20+ years.

Also, I don't go to therapy anymore. I have learned skills over time. I use CBT and some Buddhist practice, healthy living, my meds, exercise, whatever I can, being active in whatever I can. I am writing and am prepping to be a literacy tutor and ESL teacher.

I can only say, each person is unique, you know my mantra, no pun intended. I find the work of DBT to be very difficult. The Dalai Lama here has spoken (was in the paper), and as noted before, never claims these peace of mind comes easily -- even to a monk!*

Here's the info on Dialectical Behavioral Therapy which at U.ofM. is used for many things from stress management on the staff, to treatment of outpatients, to use in the hospital with cancer patients. Staff who share this information have to be trained in it themselves. I took DBT in 2003/4 I believe. 4 month intensive program. After that, we were on our own to put it to work. Like eating healthy, exercising, it takes discipline.

Also, my health insurance covered this, as it was conducted by two ACSW-IIs -- second tier Clinical Social Workers.

*"Dialectical Behavior Therapy is based on a bio-social theory of borderline personality disorder. [Marsha] Linehan hypothesises that the disorder is a consequence of an emotionally vulnerable individual growing up within a particular set of environmental circumstances which she refers to as the 'Invalidating Environment'."

The four month program addresses:

Core mindfulness skills.
Interpersonal effectiveness skills.
Emotion modulation skills.
Distress tolerance skills.

DBT is actually based on simple Buddhist principles delineated by Zen master Thich Nhat Hahn, and put to great scientific scrutiny by Marsha Linehan. See the link below to read about this in depth:*

http://www.priory.com/dbt.htm

BUT PLEASE NOTE, IF YOUR THERAPY WORKED FOR YOU, THAT IS EXCELLENT. I BELIEVE I HAVE TAKEN SOMETHING VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL AT A UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL. THERE WERE MANY ILL PEOPLE IN THE GROUP OF ABOUT 15? WE GOT OUT OF IT WHAT WE COULD. IT HELPED ME AND I AM NOT BPD, THOUGH I HAVE SOME TRAITS.

What is difficult for me is I have GAD, DP/DR, and depression. I don't respond much to meds, or only partially. What really beat me down was early psychiatrists of the 1970s who recognized DP immediately said my case was "incurable." I didn't find the options I have NOW until around the age of 40. It is very hard work, FOR ME.

Cheers,
D 8)


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2008)

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## Guest (Apr 20, 2008)

*Also for Copeful*

Buddhism consists of the following, and this is VERY simplistic.

There are "Four Noble Truths"

1. Life means suffering
2. The origin of suffering means attachment
3. The cessation of suffering is attainable
4. The path to cessation of suffering:
" ... a gradual path to self-improvement ... the middle way between the extremes of excessive self-indulgence
(hedonism) and excessive self-mortification (asceticism), and it leads to the end of the cycle of rebirth."

I do not take these words literally in every sense. Linehan, as noted above compressed them into mood regulation skills. I suffer from, and many here have "self-mortification" or self-hatred. I am in that category. I simple terms "we beat ourselves up", we become frightened, we try to control things we cannot control, we live in the past, we are weighted down by the negative in our lives. This helps one find balance. BUT IT DOES NOT GUARANTEE ANYTHING MORE THAN YOGA WOULD in terms of stress reduction, focus, etc. And you must work at it. There's nothing "magic" about it.

The Eightfold Path

1. Right View Wisdom
2. Right Intention
3. Right Speech Ethical Conduct
4. Right Action
5. Right Livelihood
6. Right Effort Mental Development
7. Right Mindfulness
8. Right Concentration

*Unless you read more detailed explanations of what this means, I can't explain it, you have to read a book.

There is a good one for the layperson called "Buddhism Without Beliefs" by Stephen Bachelor.

THIS IS NOT SPIRITUAL, IT IS RITUAL PRACTICE, just like saying "I exercise religiously on the bike every day from 8-9am before I do anything else." It is merely a discipline, like CBT.

Marsh Linehan culled the most important aspects of this ... see above ... and applied them to a version of CBT.

It has been empiracally and scientificall tested. University of Washington.*

This is not a cure all either. NOTHING is a cure-all for anything.
Say a friend of mine, very dear, has OCD. It is a serious battle. He NEVER has experienced DP/DR, but I know of another friend w/OCD who DID. And her OCD centered around "religous rituals." Totally illogical intrusive thoughts.

I really can't argue my point anymore. It is what has worked best over all these years, it is hard work, like getting yourself to exercise. It is simply a way of approaching how you think.

*Coperful, DBT/CBT is NOT spiritual. Buddhism is NOT spiritual. A Christian or a Jew or a Muslim could apply these techniques by calling for strenght from their "higher power", but I can also call from what inner strenght I have. It's in there, it's just hard to find. I am not a spiritual person. And I'm not a slave to Buddhism. Has a monk ever come up to you to recruit you into a monastery? Has a Buddhist ever made you feel guilty for "not believing". It is a very private practice.*

Sigh. Is all I can say.

*WHATEVER FLOATS ONE'S BOAT.
And I'm glad Rozanne of your very positive experience. I'm proud of you.
No one here can judge another's experienc or their way out. No one.*

Peace,
D
I don't know how to convey that if you don't read about it.
And again to compare it to ISLAM of all things indicates, and I hate to say this, you know little of either, AND I AM NO EXPERT ON WORLD RELIGIONS. BUT I DO READ ABOUT THEM.[/B]


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2008)

> For me, the sunset is a spiritual feeling, music is like being "one with god" or whatever you'd call it, love is, sex is.
> I just don't claim there's anything MAGICAL behind it. it's all natural,


That would be the goal of what I'm pursuing!

Spirit and I posted at the same time.
Buddhist thought in a nutshell. And "god" can be anything, not Christ, Allah, Y-Weh, etc. It is any "higher power", even a "higher power" such as communion with nature.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2008)

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## Guest (Apr 20, 2008)

Can I have a shoulder massage please?


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2008)

*And Spirit, you made an excellent comment. Buddhism is indeed a religion of the heart. I am into Zen Buddhism, there is also Tibetan, and I can never think of the third prominent one, lol. Mahayana?

Your HEART, the power of living, is your CORE. What you strive is to find simplicity in the simple love of life, not the intrusive thoughts in your head. Spot on Spirit!*

There are a number of Temples here, but there is a place here called "Jewel Heart" -- this is very OLD uni town like Berkeley, been around since 1815, etc. and has weathered the changes in the 1960s which brought a lot of Eastern thought here. I used to resist Eastern thought. At any rate, "Jewel Heart" isn't even a Temple! It is a gathering place for reading, discussions, and for meditation, etc. I have found Tibetan Buddhism too complicated. There are sects of this as there are sects of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc., etc.

One can take the tenets of many religions, SPIRITUAL AND NON-SPIRITUAL, SPIRITUAL DOES NOT MEAN RELIGION, I can't say that enough. And "organized religion" means something else.

No one is forcing this practice on anyone.

And it isn't MAGIC. OMG, a cow and a mango.

Here's a Koan for you. "Does a dog have a Buddha nature?" Unless you read about this way of thinking you can't understand my question.

One can be RELIGOUS and NOT SPIRITUAL. I can't say that enough.

Communism which bans spiritual practice, is a religion. ATHEISM is a non-spiritual religion.
I can prove it. :mrgreen:


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2008)

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## Guest (Apr 20, 2008)

Spirit that's IT.

And these different sects may or not be more spiritual.

Spot on with Zen. I take it as PRACTICE, not something spiritual, and yet it connects with some "higher power" as you interpret it. In Tibetan Buddhism I got so confused with a billion symbols, all sorts of stuff that turned me off.

Zen goes right to the core.

Also, ah crap now I forgot what I was going to say ... oh yes!

*When I say, "pushing thoughts out of one's mind" -- that is the more aggressive stance I have to use, and I do so with distraction. In theory while meditating or if you have your thoughts more "under control", they should flow past, like a stream, you simply observe them as thoughts, nothing more, nothing less, and let them float away.*

And yes, Spirit, read that link on Linehan's work. It is highly respected as an enhanced CBT, and particularly for individuals who have had severely dysfunctional backgrounds. Um, that would be me. 8)

*I really think, we are ALL talking about the same thing! It's a matter of what key pieces you apply, just the core practices as in CBT.*


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