# theory on the next generation



## DutchMark (Aug 10, 2004)

A friend of mine who also suffers from severe DP for several years now, has been to a astral projection specialist guy person whatever. Because this friend also sometimes sees astral things. He explained the DP to him and this guy said he thinks that there is some sort of evolution in the human mind taking place wich is resulting in more and more "DP like" symptoms. The new generation is developing a higher self conciousnes and a better understandig of "being alive". This could also be the reason why THC can bring it on the front, it's just that we are not able to handle it because we find ourselfs lost in our own mind.
I think he maybe has a point there what do you people think of this :?:


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2004)

this is odd as I was considering _this very possibility _the other day... basically something along the lines that people vulnerable to DP actually have an evolutionary "jump" in there genetic makeup. That we have characteristics that are "premature" and can't be realized in the present state of humanity and thus make us suffer, but that will eventually be advantageous in the future...

I started thinking this after hearing an interview on the radio with a geneticist who was asked if he thought homosexuality was genetic. He replied that he did believe it was, but that the genes that cause homosexuality today, in a different environment, thousands of years ago, might have come out (no pun intended) as a greater skill at hunting... or beadwork... or whatever. So it got me to thinking: perhaps the genes that give us or make us vulnerable to DP/DR are just showing up in the wrong era of human history, and that, in a different age, these genes might allow a person some benefit, or evince themselves in a different manner. Perhaps an ability for telepathy or precognition, or something we can't fathom yet.

:idea:


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2004)

bullshit


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

I think somebodies been dropping acid.


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## JasonFar (Aug 13, 2004)

I think DutchMark's words are perfectly logical and accurate, not concerning DP... I think we as a species (maybe not collectively) are gaining a larger consciousness/intelligence (whatever that implies exactly; I've got my picture of it which may or not compare to others'), and therefore dissociation as a symptom, is more prominent in today's culture/society than before. Especially when we live in such isolated times engulfed with technology, dehumanizing advertising and all that wonderful jazz... It's much easier to lose your sense of Self in a society where Ultimate Self (again, whatever that means... me likey buzz words) is hardly something obtained by most. It's much easier to spin out of control, especially when the "roots" which a lot of us aren't supplied with are pulled out from under the rug.

I understand SB and DakotaJoe's posts, because when in misery of depression/anxiety/loss of Self it seems superfulous and, well, utterly ridiculous to see dissociation and all its relative terms and symptoms as some sort of enlightenment, but I think there is "some" truth to it, angering as that may be.

~Jason


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## JasonFar (Aug 13, 2004)

Also, I believe it was the philosopher Hegel who's fundamental worldview was that as Human's progressed (or maybe it was even the Universe), they would, along the course of their evolution, come to "know themselves", or "itself" in the case of the Universe. This, in his view (don't mark my words), was the state in which we were to reach eventually, a full and total knowing of oneself... We're just a dot on that infinite line of evolution.

WHO KNOWS. 

~Jason


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2004)

SoulBrotha said:


> bullshit


HaHaHa

I know I'm annoying...

I think my Mum, my Brother, and my Auntie Majella NEED dp desperately...
Expose the hell out of them, THROW THEM deep into humanity... scare the weaklings to DEATH.

I'd love to show people my SELFLESS reality... and watch them... subordinate.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2004)

*OI*

Humility... God's trying to trigger HUMILITY.

We've lost our humility and awareness of the autonomy of others.
Humility is seen as defectiveness, and awareness of autonomy of others, is seen as putting your defences down...

I think dp/dr is felt by those born with empathy though...
All mental states start in emotions, dont they???

I think dp/dr respects human life better.
It's closer to human-ness because it puts you under a microscope...
Dunno. My head's in deep shock...


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2004)

amlangela said:


> Hey, life and being and existing IS STRANGE
> 
> I will never say that is bullshit, allthough I am not behind you in this. But I think life is strange enough to agree with this.


A belli dancer...

Life is strange enough, to agree, that we could be DPing as a grand plan.
:|

We were apes, and soon we'll be DP DR to get us closer to God and have more UNDERSTANDING of being alive - wow, understatement there, boy...
If psychic ability is READING ENERGY, we must be close.
Shock does that to ya


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Drivel. Absolute drivel. Another sickening example of the pushers of psuedo-cosmic-reality garbage onto the vunerable.

My old friend Jason tells us to keep an open mind.....why ? For what purpose ? Black is black, an apple is an apple, DR/DP is a fucking illness for christs sake. This dreamy speculation (AT BEST) is very dangerous for the mentally ill.....very.


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## DutchMark (Aug 10, 2004)

Martinelv said:


> Drivel. Absolute drivel. Another sickening example of the pushers of psuedo-cosmic-reality garbage onto the vunerable.


Well, i'm sorry :shock:

I don't like it when people throw each others believes with the garbage, I'd thought this might be a enjoyable topic but you're reaction is just an example of extreme black/white thinking. It's not that everything has to be taken that seriously!


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## Beth (Sep 27, 2004)

Hmmm...I think it's a dangerous way to think. Several times, when I've felt almost better I've felt myself sort of pushing myself back into it, to see if it's still there, because it does feel like some kind of insight, something you don't completely want to lose. But actually I know do completely want to lose it, and I think you've got to really want to, to get anywhere close to real life again. But I see the temptation. Without believing in anything mystical/spiritual/religious at all, I've still been trying to rationalise this into an enlightenment of some kind. Well, it is related to feelings that religious and spiritual people have felt, and written about, but that doesn't make everything they said true, or the state of mind desirable.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

DutchMark said:


> Well, i'm sorry :shock:
> 
> I don't like it when people throw each others believes with the garbage, I'd thought this might be a enjoyable topic but you're reaction is just an example of extreme black/white thinking. It's not that everything has to be taken that seriously!


Don't be sorry, I enjoyed this discussion. If somebody thinks thoughts like this are dangerous and/or bullshit, it is just her/his opinion. By the way, I see a point in this way of thinking, but regarding psychotic states of mind. In many indigenous cultures their belief system is shamanism. People who become visionary shamans, use to be called by spirits - and bc of that they must go through an emotional turmoil, which is called the shaman's sickness. It is a kind of psychosis, which the neophyte experiences and finally conquers it and has a total recovery - since then s/he has learned to master her/his visionary skills and can act as a shaman.

In this current modern culture there is a collective denial toward any visionary states of mind, which can be seen both in the opinions regarding psychosis (just a destructive mental illness) and psychoactive drugs (which are illegal). Yet there have been at least two psychiatric studies by doctors R.D. Laing and J.W. Perry, which showed one can recover totally after a psychotic period. Those studies showed that psychosis is rather a way to heal from traumatic experiences and an unhealthy state of mind than just a final plunge into insanity. However, the mainstream psychiatry hardly embraces the scientific results of those studies done in 60's and 70's, and I find it weird. I guess it is because this current western society is in denial toward nonordinary states of mind.

I think this is a sad situation, because in this way many people are doomed to take antipsychotic medication even for the rest of their lives and never have the chance to fully recover. If psychiatry could find another view toward these kind of psychological/spiritual experiences, it might be beneficial for the mental health of lots of people. (Well, these are just my little opinions, hopefully nobody will become annoyed bc of them.)


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

I'm sorry too DutchMark. It's just that I feel very passionately about the subject. I'm not getting at you, just the people who write that sort of crap.

Black and white thinking, OK. I stand convicted. In the same way that I think in black and white terms about, say, cancer. Is cancer another evolutionary step forward ? Should we keep an open mind ? Would you go up to someone on a cancer word and say..'Well, maybe your cancer is the lizard god from the planets zargos zapping your with his mind rays so to create another organ'. ? Or perhaps a paeodophile...think up some bilge to enourage him to molest more children ? It's the same thing. DR/DP is an illness, FULL STOP, you know it, I know it, everone on this board knows it, and the WORST, the absolute worst thing for suffers, who - incidently, have obsessional rumination on life, the universe and everything because of their SYMPTOMS, to be reeled in by some meaningless rot by someone who wants to promote their 'theory' ?

Psychiatric wards are full of previously vunerable people who have been sucked into 'alternative theories' (mainstream religion being the most common one !) about the nature of mental illness. You should go and see them. It's not a pretty sight.

I had a friend who, after being visited by a 'spiritual healer', was persuaded by her to give up his conventional treatment for leaukemia and indulge in crystal therapy or some such bollocks. He died. False hope. And don't get the impression I'm a whore of conventional medicine, because I'm not, but I'd like to see the stats of the amount of people who've been helped by chemotherapy and those who've been advised by some nut-case with a sticky idea. Really, I'd like to know...and not from those ever-so reliable stats we get pumped down our throats in Sunday newspaper magazines. You know the type of rag I'm talking about...the same magazines that say Hitler is living in a cave on the moon.

Enough of this shit, and we won't need any other outside influence to whip up our madness.[/u]


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Martinelv said:


> In the same way that I think in black and white terms about, say, cancer. Is cancer another evolutionary step forward ? -- DR/DP is an illness


I agree with you. But while we are suffering, it is sometimes fun to think about weird theories :wink: However, it is sad that sometimes people see these kinds of things too seriously and get in trouble, i.e. New Age thinkers in the mental wards. But instead of embracing the curious idea of some evolutionary step in the collective unconscious, I think this way of thinking could be seen like this:

The society, in which we are living, is alienated from nature and I see this individualistic lifestyle in crowded cities with strict time-tables etc. highly artificial, which gives quite a lot of stress to each one of us. That's why I think it is no wonder why some people develop DP/DR and/or other psychological problems, as one must cope with the stressful reality of modern society every day. (At least I think this may be one reason why I'm experiencing DR.) Instead of an evolutionary step I see DP/DR as a coping mechanism for stress/trauma that some people use instinctually. That kind of people may be more sensitive in some ways than an "average person" (sorry for this concept, I hate it too but I couldn't find a better one) is. So instead of the evolutionary thinking, it might be the question of sensitivity.

The same with the shamans in indigenous cultures - those people are in some ways more sensitive than the other members in their society, and that's why they feel called by spirits and go through the visionary psychosis, i.e. the shaman's sickness. I think people who experience psychotic states of mind in this culture might benefit from some cultural evolution in the society around them - I mean if there would be more understanding toward the mechanisms of human psyche, people experiencing acute psychosis could go through their healing processes - i.e. the "shaman's sickness" - in a safe environment or something like that. Who knows, maybe it might be true in the future?

So I didn't take this question of evolution in a literal sense, but rather metaphorically. I'm pretty sure anyone with psychological problems, may them be psychosis/dissociative disorders/anxiety/etc. would benefit from more humane culture. This is the evolutionary step for me, a step from this highly rational/individualistic society to more sensitive and human friendly culture. OK, these are my little thoughts... Anyone agree/disagree? :roll:


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

<Duplicate>


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

I agree with you to a certain degree - that DP/DR is a defence mechanism, a natural reaction to stress. The problem is when people get 'stuck' in the fear cycle, and DR/DP becomes a problem in itself.

However, we have to be cautious with the R.D. Laing approach of mental illness being a sane reaction to an insane world. If that were the case, then we'd all being going mad. And by who's standards is the world insane ? Regardless, I'm sure that there would still be mentally ill people in the most perfect of worlds, but yes, you're right - it's a question of sensitivity. And I don't think we should be sucked into the premise that 'western', with all it's stresses and strains, is more likely to induce mental illness. It's far more complicated than that, and I think that the reason we notice more people with mental illness in our culture is because: a.) Information - everyone knows everything about everyone. b.) We expect it to be treated. I'd be mightily suprised is there wasn't any schizophrenics in isolated pygmy tribes in the congo. It's a human condition.

Perhaps, as I've postulated from time to time, that 'true' intelligence is self-defeating...unable to cope with the demands of our curiosity. Think about it - we're getting better and better at fucking everything up, like a tumor eating away it's host. Dolphins, while intelligent, aren't screwing up the oceans. Perhaps, like a dying star that has exhausted it's fuel, human 'intelligence' will reach a point where we will all go insane....

But then again, some people learn to not give a damn, others wrap themselves in religion, others drugs, and the less fortunate develop DR/DP..


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2004)

I agree with Martin (which always scares me, :wink: )

I had the same kinds of thoughts during the depth of my symptoms... I constantly questioned if maybe I was "onto" something powerful, something beyond the average human's insights, etc....very "Celestine Prophecy"

It's a lie.

It's an illusion born from the state of BEING mentally ill. And yes, it can be very dangerous to wallow in those thoughts because they take you even farther away from the real world, and they make you more isolated than you already are - albeit, in the delusion this time that you are BETTER than average, not "defective."

That's how it usually comes about, too. We feel so terribly inadequate because we're not able to function in the real world, so our narcissisism creates a "happy delusion" to soothe us. What if we are really BETTER than those ordinary humans? What if we are Special or Chosen for something more profound that all those ordinary people can not discern?

They, the ordinary, care about love and work and doing something creative and forming something meaningful...all things we can't do. So it can be very tempting to believe our own concoctions that lure us with feelings of superiority rather than defect.

It's the spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down. But it's dangerous.

Keep your focus OUTward onto the real world. Trust me.

Peace,
Janine


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2004)

> Drivel. Absolute drivel. Another sickening example of the pushers of psuedo-cosmic-reality garbage onto the vunerable.
> 
> My old friend Jason tells us to keep an open mind.....why ? For what purpose ? Black is black, an apple is an apple, DR/DP is a f--- illness for christs sake. This dreamy speculation (AT BEST) is very dangerous for the mentally ill.....very.


*Drivel.*


> my little opinions





> 'Well, maybe your cancer is the lizard god from the planets zargos zapping your with his mind rays so to create another organ'


Hitler living in a cave on the moon, martinelv, is what you say about your friend with leaukemia true?
Does narcissism mean self love? You need a narcissistic delusion when you're REALLY depressed, or else you die.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Yep, entirely true. He was probably going to die anyway, as his type of leaukemia had only a 10% survival rate beyond a year, but that bastard just had to speed it along a little with her pious vomit, and gave false hope to his wife, his eight year old daughter, and most of her friends. I hope she sleeps well at night.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2004)

Martinelv said:


> Yep, entirely true. He was probably going to die anyway, as his type of leaukemia had only a 10% survival rate beyond a year, but that bastard just had to speed it along a little with her pious vomit, and gave false hope to his wife, his eight year old daughter, and most of her friends. I hope she sleeps well at night.


It's amazing the command people THINK they have over the super-natural...
It's like, tell pious lady to STEP BACK and acknowledge whether her power over spiritualism extends to cancer of the blood... hmm...
Yeah, I wave my HAND and cancer of the blood goes away...

I'm autistic martin. I'm an idiot... I can think. Cant DO, though.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

It's ok when it's harmless fun, like astrology or whatever, but when it affects peoples lives it makes me furious. And even more furious, if that's possible, that people actually believe it.

I wept like I've never wept before at his funeral. A terrible waste, the poor sod. Of course, I got smashed out of my brains at the wake and would rage on about religion to anyone who'd listen. Probably not the best of times to vent my spleen, but there you go.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

JanineBaker said:


> -- maybe I was "onto" something powerful, something beyond the average human's insights, etc....very "Celestine Prophecy"
> 
> It's a lie.
> 
> It's an illusion born from the state of BEING mentally ill.


I agree with you. Indeed in my late teens I had the attitude: "I know everything better than other people", as I had little self-confidence at that time. I guess that kind of thoughts rise from very low self-esteem - one needs to feel somehow better than others, if deep inside one feels being nothing/a loser...



JanineBaker said:


> What if we are really BETTER than those ordinary humans? What if we are Special or Chosen for something more profound that all those ordinary people can not discern?


Oh no, I shouldn't have chosen the word "average" but I didn't find a better one. I didn't mean people with psychological problems are better than others, nor special/chosen. But I think psychological problems may have something to do with sensitivity. If one is sensitive and suffers trauma, s/he may be more likely to develop some psychological problem than a person who isn't that sensitive. The one who isn't that sensitive (and I really don't mean insensitive here!) may be more skillful enduring the stress with "normal" coping mechanisms, and that's why doesn't develop mental problems ever.

(OK, I am not sure did I explain this any better now, but I tried though - sorry for my English.)

And Martin, I don't swallow the viewpoints of R.D. Laing altogether, as I see this Western society surely is a lot better (i.e. not so violent, with less serious epidemics etc.) than e.g. Medieval society. But there is a point in Laing's and Perry's thinking in my opinion. It is true that psychosis isn't necessary a dead end and just a destructive mental illness but rather a healing process for some people. However, there are also people who never recover fully from psychosis, and with those people antipsychotic meds are needed - J.W Perry has stated that too.

And I agree, it is noticed that also in shamanic indigenous cultures there are those people, who are considered to be "lunatics"; those who never recover. But in those cultures there are also people who become shamans - who have experienced psychosis (the shaman's sickness) and recovered. That's why I see it important that psychosis would be regarded with a wider perspective also here in this so-called modern society - I'm sure some people might benefit from it...


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Several reasons I don't buy this theory:

1. I have never found it enlightening in the least. I had it as a child and have it at nearly 46, chronic, non-stop. DP/DR have only hindered living a full life. I never saw it as anything more or less than an illness, a bad adaptation to dysfunction in my family, just as I see my depression and anxiety.

2. Mentall illness has existed since time immemorial sp? There are records of it dating back thousands of years. If DP/DR accompanies most if not all the major mental illnesses, well it has to have existed ... I don't know how long.

3. Jane Goodall's work with chimps at Gombe... how many years now, I've forgotten, witnesses "mental illness" or pathology in chimps who have an amazing social order. They also exhibit altruism. They also have been observed warring over territory. Goodall said had she not observed these creatures over such a long period of time she would have missed things she never imagined.

One example of mental illness in a chimp was of a female chimp who was always "off" somehow, didn't properly integrate into the group, and later stole the babies from other chimp mothers, and if I'm not mistaken, cannibalized them. That is not a proper adaptation for survival. Said chimp influenced her own daughter's behavior, but it wasn't clear that the daughter was ill. But her being raised by a chimp who deviated far from the norm didn't help her.

4. Ludovig Dugas (I hope that's correct) coined the term depersonalization in the late 1800s/early 1900s, at the turn of the century, and it had to have existed before that.

5. I can see that as an adaptation to this miserable state, some might see it as enlightenment. I have no problem with that if it makes this more bearable. But I see our preoccupation with "Self" as the result of "damage" to the sense of Self. The human mind is always seeking answers, and many cope with a more spiritual concept of this.

6. This fight/flight response is noted in many animals. "Deer in the headlights syndrome if you will, like going on "auto-pilot" during a horrible auto-accidnt. It is an adaptation that is clearly a survival mechanism. And it is a mechanism that can fail.

The brain can "get sick" as any other organ in the body can "malfunction". Making the brain better ... well there are many roads to this.

Meantime, I see this as nothing but torture. But I keep plodding along.

Also, I DO NOT see Buddhist enlightenment for example, as the same thing as what we are experiencing. There may be certain parallels, but I'm certain that is a completely different experience described in "layman's terms". Yes, an altered state of consciousness during medidation perhaps, but not something that destroys functioning, but merely clears the mind of unnecessary garbage, and allows the human to function better in an overwhelming world.

Best,
D


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Dreamer said:


> Several reasons I don't buy this theory


What theory? Was that something I wrote?

In that possible case: about shamanism I recommend books

Mircea Eliade: Shamanism - Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy
Joan Halifax: Shaman - The Wounded Healer

...and about Jungian psychiatrist Perry's views:

John Weir Perry: The Far Side of Madness

Sorry, I don't have more interest in this discussion, if people don't know anything about shamanism and/or Dr. Perry's approach to visionary psychosis. I am a coward, I escape possible flame wars.

In the case you didn't mean my posts - I must apologize, Dreamer... I may be just too sensitive regarding this stuff :wink:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Also, re: shamanism, etc.

This only shows there are different ways that the mentally ill are treated in different cultures. They are mentally ill, but some cultures see this as a "gift."

Other cultures past and present have also seen mental illness as demonic possession, etc. Today in Japan, the mentally ill are seen as a horrible embarassment to a family. Only recently have the Japanese started to chip away at centuries of stigma.

Also, many cultures seek "enlightenment" through the ingestion of psychogenic, hallucinogenic drugs, etc. I don't see that as "enlightenment".

Again this is all IMHO.

Best,
D


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Dreamer said:


> Also, re: shamanism, etc.
> 
> This only shows there are different ways that the mentally ill are treated in different cultures. They are mentally ill, but some cultures see this as a "gift."


Yes, that's partly true. But shamans aren't mentally ill, but only during their sickness - they are people who have learned to control their visionary states of mind. And what I think is most important - due to the knowledge antropologists have gained by studying shamanic cultures, people can recover from psychosis, without any medication. It is knowledge that should be needed also in our society, in my opinion.



Dreamer said:


> Also, many cultures seek "enlightenment" through the ingestion of psychogenic, hallucinogenic drugs, etc. I don't see that as "enlightenment".


I guess enlightenment must be a very personal experience, whatever it may mean. For me, "enlightenment" would mean the disappearance of DR...


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

ninnu said:


> In the case you didn't mean my posts - I must apologize, Dreamer... I may be just too sensitive regarding this stuff


Dear Ninnu,
Pleae don't take my POV as the truth. It's simply my POV. No attack on anyone, and I could be dead wrong.

I am referring to the original post that DP is a form of evolution to another, "higher" level of consciousness or knowledge. I just don't see it that way.

I did study shamanism as part of a few Anthropology classes (as my occupation being a "perpetual student", LOL). I found it fascinating that mental illness is indeed viewed as both good and bad in different cultures old and new.

To the best of my understanding, the mentally ill individual who is looked up to in a society certainly fares better as said individual is cared for, admired. I haven't read that the individual recovers from psychosis in such an environment. But the care of such an individual is important to his/her coping and functioning... said people aren't marginalized but given an important role in society. That's wonderful. They aren't stigmatized as in so many other cultures.

Best,
D
Sorry, I'm having trouble posting. We posted at the same time.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Hi Dreamer, yeah this kind of communication is difficult - both bc of the delay (posting at the same time) and bc of the appearance of words, that don't give any chance to see the facial expressions etc. By the way, if you're interested in this subject, I recommend those three books. IMO they are very insightful.


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## DutchMark (Aug 10, 2004)

well, i saw a point in the theory, it's not that I believe it, but on the other hand i'm like "yeah, why not?" 
there are some mistakes made in this discussion
1. cancer is a bad example, the human conciousness is something that is alway evoluting (spelled right?) it took over 3 milion years to become the creatures we are today, knowing that we live and having a self-conciousness, this evolution never stops its still going on I think
2. The theory doesn't said it was enlightening 
There have been animals walking around with a non-funcitonal eye because it was still evoluting ( :?: ) so it's more like we are on the way of becomming more and more aware of reality. but it just takes time to finish it of.
3. This theory could be right not even considering the possibilty it has something to do with DP or other mental ilnesess


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2004)

> It's ok when it's harmless fun, like astrology or whatever, but when it affects peoples lives it makes me furious. And even more furious, if that's possible, that people actually believe it.
> 
> I wept like I've never wept before at his funeral. A terrible waste, the poor sod. Of course, I got smashed out of my brains at the wake and would rage on about religion to anyone who'd listen. Probably not the best of times to vent my spleen, but there you go.


I feel so stupid.

I think I notice a drop in tone in your writing...

My IQ is 66, my IQ is 30.

I'm really dumb, but I feel sad when I get treated as someone with the lights out. It makes me want to die.

I actually notice, that people on this forum arn't as HURTFUL as those in the general public. The stingy, personality disorder, bitter anger found on all other internet forums, the cognitive shallowness the twisted reasoning and beliefs... markedly absent. I cant tell if it's strong, clever moderation... or a state of mind in general related to the reality testing in DP/DR.

The hurtfulness found in the general public sweeps into null and void FOR SOME REASON here. I am aware that my ability to impinge on others fell away when I was 5.


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## nayashi (Sep 4, 2004)

after scanning the replies, i have to say that i agree and disagree.

considering my DP/DR has no specific cause, you may be right, but i don't exactly think that it's an evolutionary thing, i think it's how we live. at least in America, (as you can tell by how i put my location), i extremely dislike this country because the government runs the country with fear, and fear, i believe, is another reason why DP/DR occurs. (obtaining DP/DR because of abuse is out of fear, am i wrong? if you did not fear the situation, you would not have felt the need to dissociate.)

i guess i'd have to think about a little while.

oh man, i'm going to get so much beatin' with a stick because of this...


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2004)

nayashi said:


> after scanning the replies, i have to say that i agree and disagree.
> 
> considering my DP/DR has no specific cause, you may be right, but i don't exactly think that it's an evolutionary thing, i think it's how we live. at least in America, (as you can tell by how i put my location), i extremely dislike this country because the government runs the country with fear, and fear, i believe, is another reason why DP/DR occurs. (obtaining DP/DR because of abuse is out of fear, am i wrong? if you did not fear the situation, you would not have felt the need to dissociate.)
> 
> ...


Why? Because you think the United States SUCKS.

You're right... everyone AVOIDS fear y'know... duh. We ALL have our ways... _Everyone_ HATES fear. People with long-term severe anxiety, have a high "fear" threshold... PERHAPS!
(*I'm no DOCTOR, dont quote me on anything... loo-loo-loo*)


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

All my life I have kind of believed in higher meanings and signs from whoever is in charge up there - the Celestine Prophecy - although written with the intellect of a goldfish - was a fascinating idea - aliens - ufos - psychic phenomena etc etc - whether schizophrenics have actually been given some gift to see things we can't - whether dp is actually a higher sense of awareness etc etc
However, letting 'go' of some of my more inflexible and limiting 'beliefs' has helped me no end.

I think what Janine is saying is that if you are ill, these things mean nothing, apart from a crutch or a way of protecting yourself by telling yourself that the world is really a wonderful place with such magic and beauty but in reality it just isn't. Obsessions and delusions relating to anything that's come up in this thread are very typical of the mentally ill. It's interesting because it is not just 'us' - we are not the only people doing it, the whole world believes in this kind of stuff - everybody wants there to be 'more to it' - I want to believe in 'true love' or life after death, everybody feels as though they have a 'calling' to be something or someone - all this kind of stuff. Basically, we live in a world that is so confusing to us, we will never understand it and know everything about it, and the only way for us to make any sense of it all is to shove it into black and white categories - things we can understand and not be afraid of - to give us meaning. To validate our existence - otherwise - what is the point - we have been given the intelligence and self awareness to question it- wouldn't it be cruel to just leave it there?

I don't want to believe that there isn't something that makes all this worthwhile. When I read the words astral projection in the first post, I was hooked. But because I am not suffering with dp at the moment, it is an enjoyable rumination, not one that screws with my sense of self and confuses the hell out of me. I can take it or leave it. Without a sense of perspective, it really is dangerous ground to be going over when you are dp'd.


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2004)

Yep, G-funk makes great sense.

I love fantasy and personally, there's only one thing wrong with believing in magical "happily ever afters' or guardian angels, etc....

The catch is that we can't believe in angels without also starting to believe in demons.

We can't believe in wonderous magical fairies in the twilight without soon starting to believe in monsters and demonic possession.

Choosing REALITY, to live in, think in, and believe in is what can help you center and re-establish a strong sense of self. You can't just pick and choose WHICH magical forces you like. The evil harpies are just waiting for you buy into such ideas, and they will descend full force in the night.

(just to clarify: I don't mean there are REAL evil harpies, grin...I mean the 'evil harpies' inside everyone's aggressive imagination)

Toast to reality,
Janine


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2004)

JanineBaker said:


> Yep, G-funk makes great sense.
> 
> I love fantasy and personally, there's only one thing wrong with believing in magical "happily ever afters' or guardian angels, etc....
> 
> ...


When I was in the Psychiatric unit, I was more "in touch" than when I came out. I went in there "Green", and came out a raving loony... I only developed SUICIDAL IDEATION after being in the hospital. I was the type who didn't consider suicide AT ALL, until I was put in a room with a highly impulsive suicidal girl, who attempted OVER & OVER ("Voices are telling me to kill myself!") and She talked about it non-stop too. I tried 4 times when I was dis-charged. I'd never even THOUGHT about it before then... My fourth attempt had me committed again...
I'm totally aware that exposure to suicidal people MADE me consider it/try it.



g-funk said:


> I don't want to believe that there isn't something that makes all this worthwhile. When I read the 'words' astral projection in the first post, I was hooked. But because I am not suffering with dp at the moment, it is an enjoyable rumination, not one that screws with my sense of self and confuses the hell out of me. I can take it or leave it. Without a sense of perspective, it really is dangerous ground to be going over when you are dp'd.


That is why they say that people seek out Psychics when they're "at the end of the line"... and then the Psychic FAILS them, but temporarily wraps them up in a warm blanket... The devestation when you're vulnerable can be deep... It happened to me. You "know" that satan exists.


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

oops


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

:?


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

theres nothing wrong with this type of thinking dutch. im about as deep a thinker as it gets and i always keep my mind open to anything.. negative or positive because thats the only way you LEARN.

on the other hand for those like us who are having a really hard time dealing with our PHYSICAL REALITY ie... "mentally ill", and our lives are a wreck then of course these ideas should not be given priority. the point im trying to make is your priority is always your health.

right now for me my health is my numero uno priority. but that doenst mean ive given up on romantisism. in fact.. i think its only made those thoughts much clearer and more defined. cause now i understand that in order to really achieve any sort of enlightenment... you have to come to understand the self. and by that i mean you dont have to throw away your physical self.. you embrace that. you aknowledge your flaws, accept them as a part of who you are right now... and then make the neccisary changes.

first you start out small. like make little changes on the things you are habitually doing wrong in your life and that are having a negative impact on your life ie health. like your daily ritual and eating habits. try to maintain focus on that. cause that is your priority... and the romanic thinking takes a backseat. from there you work your way up. its like a progressive graph. but the graph doesnt go up in a strait line... its a squiggly line with all kinds of twists and turns but you never ever go back to square one. why? because you are learning. even though you may think youve fallen off the horse completely.. that is never the case. you HAVE made progress. slow and tedious as it may seem. and before you know it.. you will be well enough that your romantic ideas can take more priority in your life. you will be able to apply them to your life without it having a negative impact on your health.

thats the goal. but if your life is f#cked up at the moment then these thoughts should not be dominating your reality. you need to learn how to crawl before you learn how to fly.


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

yeah I'm not giving up on romanticism, but I'm opting for what I know is definitely reality first. And anything else is a bonus. When you get over the negative side of magical thinking and you have a more realisitc view on the world, I'm hoping its possible to retain that eternal optimism and love of nature and romance and spiritualness etc because it can't all be due to being 'ill' surely? Wonder whether we'd have interesting, intellectual/spiritual debates if we were mentally 'sound'...what came first, the chicken or the egg? If I had a penny (or cent) for every time I said that...


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2004)

g-funk said:


> yeah I'm not giving up on romanticism, but I'm opting for what I know is definitely reality first. And anything else is a bonus. When you get over the negative side of magical thinking and you have a more realisitc view on the world, I'm hoping its possible to retain that eternal optimism and love of nature and romance and spiritualness etc because it can't all be due to being 'ill' surely? Wonder whether we'd have interesting, intellectual/spiritual debates if we were mentally 'sound'...what came first, the chicken or the egg? If I had a penny (or cent) for every time I said that...


My magical thinking is MORE mad than any other thing I manifestt...

Romanticism makes you "tolerant", patient, accepting..Get ready to be _VERY_ hurt!

"Lovely" thinking can equate with madness in some peoples eyes, and "vulnerability" ripe for punishment, in otherz


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

> Romanticism makes you "tolerant", patient, accepting..Get ready to be VERY hurt!


i dont agree with this at all. not all deep thinking romantics are marshmallows.. and not all romantic ideas make you into a marshmallow. and if you end up being a target for a good mindfuck than you obviously didnt do your homework ie.. look at both sides of the coin thoroughly before presenting these ideas to anyone or applying them to your life. being prepared for the worst and accepting the possibility of failure in every situation is vital. a good defense is just as important as a good offence. and to have both at the same time is what we call WISDOM.

meditate on this young grasshopper.


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2004)

His body position is making Him access left brain I think.
Making it easier for Him to block out other peoples' energies and stay grounded.

My energy is falling out EVERYWHERE (Especially emotion)

His body position is quite subtle, but the clenched right fist, Open left palm, eyes 45 degrees off centre to the right, eyes slightly "lifted" 30 degrees above horozontal. Very subtle.
I'm quite good at looking at things. I'm very retarded.

His subtle body position would centre His energy to block out the deviant energy of others.

(He's protecting His solar plexus too.. knees up)

He'd be CRUISING after that positioning...

I didn't need to meditate.. anyone ever WONDER what happens when you lose your analytical thought for 21 years??? You get a little observant.


sleepingbeauty said:


> Quote:
> Romanticism makes you "tolerant", patient, accepting..Get ready to be VERY hurt!
> 
> i dont agree with this at all. not all deep thinking romantics are marshmallows.. and not all romantic ideas make you into a marshmallow. and if you end up being a target for a good mindfuck than you obviously didnt do your homework ie.. look at both sides of the coin thoroughly before presenting these ideas to anyone or applying them to your life. being prepared for the worst and accepting the possibility of failure in every situation is vital. a good defense is just as important as a good offence. and to have both at the same time is what we call WISDOM.


I'm a marshmallow *SECRET!!!* I was born one, it's my weakness. My family KNOW it too. I'm a spongecake.

*and if you end up being a target for a good mindfuck than you obviously didnt do your homework ie.. look at both sides of the coin thoroughly before presenting these ideas to anyone or applying them to your life. being prepared for the worst and accepting the possibility of failure in every situation is vital. a good defense is just as important as a good offence.*
Hm-Hm. You're not clever enough to combat my ma...
I'm not _either.._

You're all so CLEVER! Try to "defend" yourself (Psychically) against me'ol'Ma! (You wouldn't be able to do it)


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2004)

Um.

Is that asian picture a "movie still"?

Did you "set me up" to look like an _IDIOT_ (again)?

Wow...What a "new" feeling...


Can you NOT use references to "Popular culture"???
I dont have a TV, I have no FRIENDS & I dont socialise,
So I cant "keep up" with things.
I'm not EDUCATED either (seriously).
The people I talk to "fool me" because I'm Autistic, so they'll never GIVE me any free information.

Do whatever you like


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2004)

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content









I'll just comfort myself with the familiar.

I'm starting to look TOO CLOSE to the screen, I'm missing judgement calls.

 No-one knows what it's like in my head.
I'm starting to lose A BIT TOO MUCH paranoia, I think...I'm getting a TAD too wofty (Anyone notice, I'm TRYING to shut off my "emotional behaviour", stupid sb keeps confusing me, so She keeps triggering it, stupid bitch


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2004)

If I had an analytical dialogue, would I be posting so much PERSONAL INFORMATION on the screen?

Do people in cults, who get their analytical thought HAMMERED go "blank" when they lose it? Or...
Do they "get it back"???

Or do they "replace" it with a NEW way of analyzing, or?

Umm.

When I get my analytical thought back one day, will I have a brain heamorrhage when I read this forum?


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Honestly, sometimes....if it wasn't so bloody tragic it would be funny, but it isn't, so I'm not laughing.

Some of you...listen to yourselves, please. A bunch of clinically ill, mentall ill people raving about quasi-mystical beliefs in relation to their DP. Keep our minds open ? Sure, but not so much that our brains fall out. Shamanism, psychotic imaging....lovely. When I read this kind of stuff on this forum my arsehole puckers up like a camels bum in a sandstorm. This isn't just me and my usual anti-anything ranting, it's from experience. I've lived around Schizophrenics all my life (my parents worked on Psychiatric wards) and if you left a tape recorder there for a day, what you'd hear wouldn't be much different from what is being said here.

You are skating on the thinnest of thin ice, people, I mean it. Trust me. There is a width of a gnats wing between this kind of 'speculation' and insanity.

OK, let's pretend that psychosis and neurosis are sane reactions to an insane world. They aren't, but let's pretend anyway. So what ? Am I missing something ? You'd put a plaster on a paper cut... you wouldn't gouge it out with a spoon....


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

Then that makes the whole world bonkers cos it sure isn't just us 'nuts' who have conversations like this. I've had these discussions with people who haven't ever come close to any form of mental illness. Everyday, 'normal' people entertain 'delusions' in the form of conspiracy theories etc. Read that link that Dreamer posted to that new psych mag. and the story called 'Secret Powers Everywhere'. It's very similar to our discussion.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Oh my, I couldn't care less - but it seems someone should read the books I recommended before expressing his ideas regarding the subject (schizophrenia, shamanism). And I'm out of this thread, as this has happened even before, in another forum. I'm definitely bored.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

No it doesn't G-Funk ! There is a big difference between 'healthy' adults entertaining some whimsy about whether the moon landings were faked or not, and a discussion on a mental health forum about DR/DP being somekind of enlightenment, or whatever the latest 'theory' is.

But OK, if these books say so then it must be true. Just like the bible.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Martinelv said:


> But OK, if these books say so then it must be true. Just like the bible.


Nope, I just wish you would educate yourself a bit before you start expressing your ideas about shamanism in general/Perry's viewpoints about schizophrenia. I am ready to discuss with you after you have done your education project. Comparing the books I listed to the bible shows me that you aren't interested enough to have a healthy debate, but the only thing you seem to be interested in is the flame war.


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## rob (Aug 22, 2004)

Maybe having a mental illness (or maybe even any experience far from the norm) affords you insights that you might otherwise not have had?

Ebeneezer G


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

I'm not trying to start a war at all. I'm not saying I'm bored with the discussion (because someone dares to disagree), or telling people that they are uneducated ! I'm offering my opinion.

Uneducated ? If you say so. Perhaps you're right. There isn't much in this world that I am certain of. But I tell you one thing, if you'd believe the latest shit to join the ranks of the million and one other crack-pot books polluting the 'Mind and Spirit' section of book shops, rather than listen to people who have lived and experienced this terrible ILLNESS, and other psychiatric problems, and recovered without indulging in quasi-mystical sludge, then so be it.


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

Ok, there is a big difference between healthy people discussing these things and the people on this forum using these ideas in an unhealthy way. I agree. I agree that it isn't healthy to obsess over these things, especially if your dp is of an existentialist nature as it will only make you feel worse. But the people on this forum aren't necessarily skating dangerously close to psychosis just because they are discussing such things.

Our 'reality testing' is intact, so although it feels like it, if you are not psychotic then you don't actual beliveve the crazy thoughts we torture ourselves with. All it does is make your dp a hundred times worse, not push you into psychosis. In effect, our reality testing is the same as everyone else who ponders over whether we landed on the moon or not, whether AIDS is man-made, whether the military use psychics to seek out the position of the enemy during war, whether we really are the only life form in the universe or whether we can contact the dead.

I just wanted to say that people can have spiritual or mystical debates, even if they suffer from a mental illness and not necessarily be delusional or psychotic.

I wasn't really discussing beliefs with regards to my dp, though I have thought about it, but then realised that it wasn't getting me anywhere and that I would quite happily settle for treating like it were nothing more than an illness. I would be interested to read Ninnu's books that she recommends. But only when it's safe to go back in the water, so to speak!

I'm sure my Avatar tells you more about my opinion than this post anyway...


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Martinelv said:


> I'm not trying to start a war at all. I'm not saying I'm bored with the discussion (because someone dares to disagree), or telling people that they are uneducated ! I'm offering my opinion.


It is just you express your opinions without knowing anything about the subject, and that makes me bored. What else could I do? Opinions without any background knowledge on the subject are nothing else than opinions without any background knowlegde on the subject. I basically agree with you regarding the New Age sh*t manuals, but if you throw your opinion about J. Halifax's, M. Eliade's and J. W. Perry's books without even reading them, what I can I do? Certainly cannot discuss with you.


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2004)

Ninnu said:


> Martinelv said:
> 
> 
> > But OK, if these books say so then it must be true. Just like the bible.
> ...


..Education project.. 

Aliens ARE _real_..Dont cha know.. Psychics are HIGHLY ATTUNED "special people" (remote viewing, all that), and conspiracy theories help da "truth" get out there dont cha know..

Anyone dare to "define" Schizophrenia for me? (I'm a schizophrenic) *waits*
(Clever Doctors, clever) 

I'm not reading any of your BOOKS, nunnoo, I cant be bothered. I'm too busy watching the ALIENS land in my backyard, as the TV "talks" to me, and as the CIA peep through my window..
I'll get to all that LATER, after I've taken over the Govt. in my STOLEN ARMY TANK..


:shock: "What was THAT, Hectorr?? Nunnoo is a secret Govt agent who has TOP PRIORITY ACCESS to my _"file"_..O, we'd better watch out for Her spiritual transgressions then."

As a SCHIZO I now need to go isolate myself (socially), and withdraw emotionally. See you's tomorrow.
And, as a BORDERLINE PERSONALITY DISORDER, I hope you're all aware that I'M in control here (and that none of the rest of you are in control) and that IF YOU TAKE MY CONTROL AWAY I'll harm myself.
And, as a PARANOID PSYCHOSES Martinelv *IF YOU DONT STOP TALKING TO ME LIKE I'M A MONG I'LL PERSONALLY MURDER YOU* (Lame ass)

And, as an ASPERGER SYNDROME "Wat? Who? Did something happen?"


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

What ? Who ? Where ? When ? Why ?


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2004)

Martinelv said:


> What ? Who ? Where ? When ? Why ?


It's called acting moronic.


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## GavinD (Aug 10, 2004)

Ghost, congratulations on being mentally ill...you're clearly very proud of the fact. And thank you for reminding me why I stopped coming to this board, even though I used to find it helpful and reassuring.

Look, if you're 'with it' enough to be able to operate a computer then you're also with it enough to make sensible contributions to this board, rather than the rambling cryptic nonsense and unprovoked attacks you're coming out with right now....

...and if you're NOT capable of making sense or behaving like a rational adult then I suggest to you that you seek proper medical help rather than help from a website, as something like this is never going to be enough to provide you with the answers or help you seek.

Not only is it completely unhelpful to you, but it is also infuriating to those other people on this site who, don't forget, are suffering just as you are.


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## Beth (Sep 27, 2004)

I think the one thing that must be most unhelpful to someone who feels failed by her family and doctors is being told off on a forum that is supposed to be a support to people with problems. Are you only allowed to post here if you have JUST dp/dr, not that in combination with anything else?


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## GavinD (Aug 10, 2004)

Of course not Beth, most of do have something else as well. But is it right for other people who are suffering as much as Ghost to have to put up with irrational, unprovoked attacks? While I hope Ghost gets the help she needs, I also feel that other people on this site should feel at ease in getting the help they need without being attacked or bamboozled with cryptic points. After all, lots of people on here are very sensetive and therefore very vulnerable to such attacks.

g


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2004)

damnit i cant believe Mary Jane did this to me that stupid bitch after all we've been through !


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2004)

GavinD said:


> Ghost, congratulations on being mentally ill...you're clearly very proud of the fact. And thank you for reminding me why I stopped coming to this board, even though I used to find it helpful and reassuring.
> 
> Look, if you're 'with it' enough to be able to operate a computer then you're also with it enough to make sensible contributions to this board, rather than the rambling cryptic nonsense and unprovoked attacks you're coming out with right now....
> 
> ...


What would "you" do if someone "sp.ok.e" t.o y.ou, l.ike. t.hat.?


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2004)

GavinD said:


> Of course not Beth, most of do have something else as well. But is it right for other people who are suffering as much as Ghost to have to put up with irrational, unprovoked attacks? While I hope Ghost gets the help she needs, I also feel that other people on this site should feel at ease in getting the help they need without being attacked or bamboozled with cryptic points. After all, lots of people on here are very sensetive and therefore very vulnerable to such attacks.
> 
> g


How sensitive.


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