# A case series of 223 patients with depersonalization-derealization syndrome



## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12888-016-0908-4


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## luctor et emergo (May 22, 2015)

Great find again TDX.

This may point to an increased
genetic vulnerability of the DDS group on the
one hand and on the other hand to an increased environmental
risk of being exposed to parents with anxiety
disorders [39]

Spot on!

In Germany, a first step towards the
improvement of DDS care may constitute the implementation
of the guideline recommendations for the diagnosis
and treatment of the depersonalization-derealization
syndrome, which have been recently published by the
Association of the Scientific Medical Societies in
Germany [42].

What can we expect from this intention?


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

> What can we expect from this intention?


These guideline recommendations are crap. You cannot read them, because they're in german. But here some of the bad aspects:

-Michal wants to reserve medication only for "individual cases" or "exceptional cases", which are not specified. That means he wants that most patients don't get the choice to try medications.

-The clinical trials and case reports are reported in a distorted way to make medication seem worse than it is. For example for the Naloxeone trial he only reports that 3 patients had a remission. He doesn't tell the reader that another 7 had a significant improvement. Or in the section about benzodiazepines he says about both case reports that there was only a short-term improvement with Clonazepam, although in both cases the improvement lasted for a minimum of some months.

-He wants doctors to tell patients that DPD is "a treatable disorder" and that "the treatment of choice is psychotherapy".

-He promotes (psychodynamic) long-term-psychotherapy, based on crappy psychoanalytic "theories", as the treatment of choice.

Michal is evil. Some of his publications are useful, but they are much less useful than Simeons, Medfords or even Sierras. He does his research with the wrong motivation. His intention is to promote psychodynamic psychotherapy. That's clear when you (could) read his book.


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## luctor et emergo (May 22, 2015)

TDX said:


> These guideline recommendations are crap. You cannot read them, because they're in german. But here some of the bad aspects:


So we can throw this guidelines in the garbage-bin, shame.

I can read German as I am from the Netherlands where you have German lessons in highschool.

Far from perfect but hey, can you read Dutch? ;-)


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

> I can read German as I am from the Netherlands where you have German lessons in highschool.


Well then, here it is:

http://www.awmf.org/uploads/tx_szleitlinien/051-030l_S2k_Depersonalisations_Derealisationssyndrom_2014-09.pdf



> Far from perfect but hey, can you read Dutch?


Not really although I notice some similarities.


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## mariehurst39 (Aug 13, 2016)

What were they ultimately looking to prove with this study?


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

I think it is mainly exploratory research, that helps to build hypotheses.


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

> Although his research into the neurobiology of DP has been good


I do not share your opinion about his neurobiological research. It's mainly intended to push psychoanalytic non-sense. Look into "Striking Discrepancy of Anomalous Body Experiences with Normal Interoceptive Accuracy in Depersonalization-Derealization Disorder". There he says:

*"Thus, the discrepancy between intact interoceptive accuracy and narratives of disembodiment may reflect difficulties of DPD patients to integrate their actual visceral and body perceptions into a schema of their selves or as Paul Schilder worded it succinctly for persons with DPD: 'the individual does not acknowledge himself as a personality'"*

In "Depersonalization disorder: disconnection of cognitive evaluation from autonomic responses to emotional stimuli" you will find something similar:

*"In conclusion, our findings have important implications for psychotherapeutic approaches: [...] the DPD patient needs special help to increase his conscious awareness for bodily signals, and to recognize and evaluate his affective reactions properly, or to reword Paul Schilder (1939) 'to acknowledge himself as a personality'"*

So the results of both studies: The patients must acknowledge themselves as a personality in the sense of the psychoanalyst Paul Schilder, who is often praised by Michal ("one of the masterminds in DP-DR-research"). There is just another neurobiological study by him, where he looked at hypnotically induced DP. We did not learn much of significance from all these publications.

Recently he was promoted to a full professor. In my opinion his achievements do NOT justify this. If you could read his book "Depersonalisation und Derealisation: Die Entfremdung überwinden" (means: DP and DR: Overcoming the enstrangement) you would notice how much his thinking lacks substance. I think Sierra and Simeon were not full professors, but they deserved it much more than Michal. I guess Michal was lucky and had the opportunity to build networks, that helped him to gain his current position.

If you knew his book and what he tells the media about us, you would notice how bad he is. Michal is to DP, what Simon Wessely is to CFS. Maybe I will translate some quotes by him and post them here. In the german forum some people met him and many said that he is arrogant and cold. That does not surprise me.



> Very disappointing considering that his department is by far the most active in DP research right now.


Elaine Hunter seems to be no better. The user thy visited her and told me about it, and I was really terrified by such imcompetence, although it doesn't surprise me, because I read her book. Maybe he tells you if you write him a private message, or he posts it here.



> I guess we shouldn't be expecting any medication trials from his lot then.


Yes, that's sad, because in my opinion there are several medications that should be tested in open trials.


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## Alex617 (Sep 23, 2015)

TDX said:


> These guideline recommendations are crap. You cannot read them, because they're in german. But here some of the bad aspects:
> 
> -Michal wants to reserve medication only for "individual cases" or "exceptional cases", which are not specified. That means he wants that most patients don't get the choice to try medications.
> 
> ...


Except he's totally correct, initial treatment should be based on psychotherapy as many people can get remission this way. You call him evil because his work doesn't specifically cater to your needs, that's not how science works.


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

> Except he's totally correct, initial treatment should be based on psychotherapy as many people can get remission this way.


No, this is totally incorrect. There is no evidence that psychotherapy cures a substantial proportion of people. Michal cannot go to the public and tell everyone that DP is easily curable. Nobody who reads this, would take DP seriously. There isn't even a credible approach for the treatment of DPD and on this forum almost everyone had psychotherapy, but only a minority reported anti-depersonalisative effects.



> You call him evil because his work doesn't specifically cater to your needs, that's not how science works.


No, he is evil, because he lies to the public that DP is easily treatable and rules that most people with DP should not get medication, although there is evidence for it's effectiveness, while there is almost none for psychotherapy.


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## Alex617 (Sep 23, 2015)

TDX said:


> No, this is totally incorrect. There is no evidence that psychotherapy cures a substantial proportion of people. Michal cannot go to the public and tell everyone that DP is easily curable. Nobody who reads this, would take DP seriously. There isn't even a credible approach for the treatment of DPD and on this forum almost everyone had psychotherapy, but only a minority reported anti-depersonalisative effects.
> 
> No, he is evil, because he lies to the public that DP is easily treatable and rules that most people with DP should not get medication, although there is evidence for it's effectiveness, while there is almost none for psychotherapy.


Wait, you said he said it was treatable, treatable =/= easily curable. I'm sure you already know, treatable is what they call major depressive disorder, in that it won't go away but you can use medicine and therapy to 'treat' it to a more manageable level.

If you think that dp/dr can't be at least treated then I have to say you are wrong. You seem the be the only poster here absolutely convinced that nothing can be done for this condition, I don't think drugs can do much to treat such deeply ingrained pessimism.

I'll also add, the field of psychotropic drugs is in its infancy, we have very little understanding of how they work and mental illness medication is literally throwing darts in a dark room and not understanding how they stick to the board. They shouldn't be used as a first line of treatment. That goes for every mental illness, we have an epidemic of overprescription because doctors are script happy and that's why many people are minimizing mental illness.

Notice also how many people here recovered due to their own lifestyle/perspective changes vs those who used drugs. You have to at least have some understanding of how dp/dr works on a pathological level before you start talking about drug treatments. I'm someone who benefited from drugs, good old anti-anxiety medication and testosterone injections, but I considered myself 70% better with time and lifestyle changes.


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## Alex617 (Sep 23, 2015)

But how much of that do you think stems from incompetent therapists not understanding of their condition or state of anxiety? My first attempt at therapy ended up with a panic attack because the guy was a total twat who grilled me for my sleep habits, when I really needed someone who understood just how deep in shit I was. My second therapist couldn't understand me at all, I was talking about Cartesian doubt and not knowing if my thoughts were objectively real, nonsense that no 4 year degree therapist can take on. But I found two that got me, they had an existential mode of therapy, meaning I could discuss my nihilistic/solipsistic thoughts, weird ideas and intense fears that were driving my dp/dr. Many benefits of therapy are implicit, meaning it's not what you do, it's the very act of spending time with another person and opening up your anxieties about life, this reduction of mental load can be a god send.

I totally get the fear regarding treatment cuts, but if I recall from my psychology studies the empirical data will be used to consider further options. Meaning, if patients do not respond, they will have to reconsider treatment options. At the very least its being considered as an illness, I'm honestly not even sure dp/dr is listed anywhere in public psychiatry here, it's a fringe condition very few therapists are even aware of. Saying it can be treatable can work as a good placebo booster for those who are told "you can get better", it's important to have a belief in the possibility of recovery. The thing is people who are increasingly intelligent and skeptical such as you and TDX don't react to the placebo effect.

This in some way reminds me of a massive thread on depressionforums on the treatment of anhedonia, a very intelligent poster kept it going for over 120 pages trying every possible combination of drugs available to treat his lack of pleasure, and I mean every possible drug, nootropic, treatment including ECT. If I recall, he eventually came to the conclusion that his mindset was part of the problem, as you can't expect drugs to give you a certain effect like it was some kind of equation, i.e drug a + b = happiness. Emotions don't quite function that way.

I still strongly hold to the idea that dp/dr is the cause of intense anxiety disorder (hence the benzo alleviation), stemming from more abstract fears that the brain becomes overworked from, like an overclocked computer that heats up and starts to get wonky. The effects can stay for a longtime, self-perpetuating even after the subject becomes numb to their anxiety. However, I am totally open to accepting that I had what you describe as secondary dp/dr, I certainly don't want to minimize your experience just because I had remission using my own methods.


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## eddy1886 (Oct 11, 2012)

is absolutely right in the previous post....

It basically comes down to the level of suffering....This is why I myself am an advocate of medicine...Because it eased what I can only describe as DP in the most extreme form.....I was living in absolute hell...I simply could not function at any level....And medicine gave me huge relief...

I always put it this way when it comes to mental health issues....There are people who can manage to function at a reasonable level but still suffer with mental ill health...Then there are those who practically cannot move from their bed as a result of their mental ill health....There is a huge difference in the two forms...

I strongly believe that the chronic (extreme) form of DP is at its heart an imbalance of chemicals in the brain which can only be addressed with medicines...

Now if youve suffered from DP and therapy fixed you thats awesome....Just do not dismiss the fact that medicines can be very helpful to alot of people with DP....

It was said above...."Do any of the anti medicine advocates on here think that all the chronic form sufferers of DP on here didnt try the therapy route first?" They all did...It just didnt work...In fact for some like me it made us worse....The only other route after tharapy failed was medicine....The suffering was simply too much to not try medicine....

To be honest....We all want one thing...A cure for this crazy, awful, horrendous, life altering condition....So why dont we all just agree to disagree...What works for one doesnt work for another....Its an individual thing....

The other point I want to note as regards therapy is this....For alot of people on here the root cause of their DP remains a mystery....I think thats why therapy fails for these people....I actually really envy those who have discovered the source of their DP....I mean how can you fix something if you dont even know what broke it in the first place?????

I think all of us on here (me included) need to stop dismissing each others treatment methods and to start promoting (especially for all the younger newbies) in a positive way what works for each of us in our battle against this thing....The one thing a newbie on here needs is some kind of hope....If there is no hope there is absolutley nothing else left for us....Just be careful guys (and im talking to the long term members here) that newbies on here are reading all this stuff and they may be driven away by negativity.....Where else are they gonna go after here......

We are dealing with young peoples lives here!


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## Alex617 (Sep 23, 2015)

Thank you for the informational response. I agree with most of what you said, and I always suspect there is a neurochemical aspect to this because I always perceived it as something going on in my brain that wasn't properly interpreting reality around me, hence all the questioning of objective reality. My conclusion of course being the overclocked brain analogy but that's of course purely intuition, not scientific by any means.

My case for pro-therapy isn't based on the belief that it can be cured using this method. You see I had 4 years of treatment resistant depression, anxiety and existential issues to address on top of my dp/dr. At no stage did I believe that I could ever be normal again. My philosophy is based on Viktor Frankl, a concentration camp survivor who talked in depth about how it's our reaction to suffering that is most important. So I have this brain that is prone to panic attacks, creating immense unexplained suffering and dp/dr, what do I do? Suffering is inevitable, should I just kill myself? I chose to accept that recovery may be out of reach, not meaning I will give up, meaning I will make the most of what I have, what I can do in the relatively short time I have here. I believe this is ultimately what left room for the remission that followed, and where therapy can be useful in teaching us coping skills.

It's really my battle with depression that shapes this outlook. Years I tried to cure it with lifestyle changes, therapy, drugs, fringe treatments etc. Nothing worked, was it perhaps this that kept me in a kind of loop? I forgot what normal is, but normal to me is not thinking about these things 24/7, constantly monitoring your mood state and being destroyed when you have a bad day that brings you back to square one. Mental illness is a kind of conundrum to me, the line between pure illness and self-entrapment becomes blurred over time. That's why I never bothered to say "I will cure my dp/dr 100%", I promised myself to live in spite of it and embrace my shitty circumstances. I doubt I would be here if I haven't made that choice, this is why I find TDX's negative outlook to be as much of a problem as his condition. We simply can't fix all our problems but we can have some say in how we react to them.

Thankfully, I kept pursuing treatment without any expectations. I did some rather extreme things such as injecting myself with steroids but they eventually worked, at the very least I have a very positive outlook today in spite of my skeptical and cynical nature. Also fuck drugs, I know for a fact years of using cannabis, LSD and other forms of psychadelics left a mark on my psyche that makes life more difficult than it needs to be, but the irony being that the introspection and self-awareness I got from it allow me to deal with these issues a little better than the average person. If I developed mental illness just living my regular life I might have been more tempted to give in to my darkest realizations.


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

> TDX believes that therapists are just waiting for you to turn your back so they can stick a pen deep into the side of your neck. [...] Even though I lean heavily towards TDX's side of the argument on almost every issue, I can see that both of them are extremists in their own way.


Wait a second. This is absolutely *false*. I acknowledge that psychotherapy *can* work for several mental disorders. *But* there is nothing to suggest that DP is a disorder that is responsive to psychotherapy in a substantial number of people with DP. I'm no extemist and I stress that I'm certainly no "Anti-Zed". I'm just inclined to the truth and want to find it rationally.

I also do not believe that "that therapists are just waiting for you to turn your back so they can stick a pen deep into the side of your neck". I'm more realistic in the sense that I believe that psychotherapists are no more respectable than the pharma industry. But this doesn't mean that there are no useful therapists.



> Plenty of people on here have secondary DP and a lot of them will be able to make progress in their recoveries by making lifestyle changes, reducing stress, tackling any physical health problems and - yes - going to a therapist. After all, psychotherapy can be used to treat a lot of the conditions that cause DP.


You have no evidence that many on this forum have secondary DP. Secondary DP is defined as DP that occurs exclusively as part of another mental disorder.

EXAMPLES:

-A person with panic disorder has DP during a panic attack, but not when it's over.

-A person with agoraphobia has DP when the anxiety get's severe, but only then.

-Someone with Temporal Lobe Epilepsy has DP only during the seizure.

-A person with PTSD has DP when he is reminded to his trauma, but not all day.

-A person with Borderline Personality Disorder has DP when he dissociates during his emotional rollercoaster.

-A person with depression got DP after the depression started and it goes away when the depression is over or responds to treatment. But this case is more complicated.

-A person who took drugs and gets DP during the intoxication, but does not stay when the substance left the body.

If someone has DP all the time, it is much more likely to be DPD and not secondary DP, so the majority on this forum should not have secondary DP. I'm also still collecting data of Andys Forum and there was almost nobody who clearly had secondary DP.

You are also about to step into the "it's only a symptom"-trap. Even when DP is caused by another metal disorder, this does not mean that it can be regarded as secondary DP that goes away if the disorder, that caused it, is treated. I think in this regard DP resembles Catatonia, that can appear in several mental disorders, but requires special treatment.



> When you have DP without any obvious cause, what do you do? You can't use psychotherapy effectively. What would you even talk about? "Oh, yeah, I got this DP thing while I was meditating one day and it sucks". I've been there because I also have idiopathic primary DP. I mean, I got it while I was doing a ton of drugs for a long time and it was obviously physically stressing my body out. But that knowledge doesn't lead to any useful psychological answers. I can't simply reverse that process. For TDX and I, our answers lie in finding out exactly what's going on in our brains (structurally, chemically etc.) and attempting to fix any problems. That is the reason for our hyper-focus on psychiatric solutions and the psychiatry of DP.


In my case it's not idiopathic, but was caused by severe stress among other things. But even if there is such a cause, this does not mean that the disorder can be explained psychologically. I quit university and I'm always sitting home, because it's hard for me to be interested in anything and do something actively for a longer time. My life is without any apparent stress, so the cause is resolved, but my emotional numbness and blank mind are *always* there. They didn't change in any way and do not depend on my behaviour or cognitions, which makes CBT useless and CBT-based psychotherapy is the only credible psychotherapy. Apart from that I'm already having psychotherapy since 1 year and it's apparent that my therapist doesn't have a clue how to help me.

I was in a clinic and spent some time in the depression group. In group therapy many of the people complained about things like they are lonely or don't have any friends and so on. Or my sister-in-law has depression and it gets worse during bad life-events. For example when her baby was dead, after she gave birth to it, she had the urge to kill herself. In these cases there is interaction between the disorder and the behaviour and cognitions of the patients. *This* are the people who can benefit from psychotherapy.

I am not anti-psychotherapy, but I realized that it's not the secret weapon, like many therapists want us to believe. It often does not really address the cause, just like medication doesn't do it, too. Both are able to change around in the brain to correct certain problems, but not necessarily by treating the cause. It's just like spectacle lens, which allow you to see normally, but do not treat the cause, which is abnormal length of your eye. They only differ on which layer of abstraction they operate.

In the same manner the psychosis-inducing excessive dopamine will still flow when D2-receptors are blocked by antipsychotics. Or Dialectical Behavioural Therapy does not treat the cause of Borderline Personality Disorder, but gives the patients tools to cope with their emotional rollercoaster. Or CBT for tinnitus can work for some people, by making them able to reduce their automatic reaction to noise and so ignore the tinnitus. But the "hardware problem" is not resolved.

Even in mental disorders, where psychotherapy is proven to work, there is a substantial number of people who remain treatment-resistant. For example in OCD 40% are resistant to standard psychotherapy AND medication.

I do not dismiss psychtherapy, but I came to the conclusion that it is not useful for the majority of people. There is no really convincing concept for a psychotherapy against DPD. The only approach that comes close to that is Elaine Hunters approach, but it has it's problems, too, and it's effectivess seems to be fairly limited.



> This in some way reminds me of a massive thread on depressionforums on the treatment of anhedonia, a very intelligent poster kept it going for over 120 pages trying every possible combination of drugs available to treat his lack of pleasure, and I mean every possible drug, nootropic, treatment including ECT. If I recall, he eventually came to the conclusion that his mindset was part of the problem, as you can't expect drugs to give you a certain effect like it was some kind of equation, i.e drug a + b = happiness. Emotions don't quite function that way.


I know this thread, because I read the whole thing. In my opinion Trevor became somewhat delusional after his failure with ECT, because he wasn't able to find a solution. And in my opinion Trevor isn't as intelligent, as he thinks. For example he said somewhere that engeneering students forget the maths they are taught in the first semesters and that even math students do so, too. Well, I was a math student and I can tell you that this totally wrong. Even if he was very intelligent this doesn't imply that he is right. You should also note, that almost all people in the thread reported that their symptoms were unchanged, although some had years of psychotherapy. Concerning the sense of life I can mostly identify myself with the user handsup, who also is completly numb and blank minded... and maybe dead by now.


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

The problem: Trevor said that they forget it *while they were still studying*. After having completed the degree is a different story. I must admit that my knowledge is buried after having done almost nothing for 2 years, but I'm able to ressurect it.



> Annoyingly, many of my classmates intentionally forgot everything they learnt because they were just doing a tough degree at a top uni to prove that they could go into investment banking or some other financial shitfest.


Reminds me to the poeple at my university, who sell all their book after they got their degree. I would never do that.



> thanks for being so kind as to define it for me btw; as if I didn't know what the term I use all the time actually means


I did this, because I rarely see poeple who present their symptoms in such a way, as they are in the examples. They are more likely to be in forums for their superordinate disorder.


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

By the way: What is your next station on our road to sunset? At the moment I'm fluoxetining my Lamotrigine, but I think it won't do the trick.


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

> I don't think the research community has done this enough because I've observed a lot of patterns and predictors for positive/negative prognoses by doing it. Chronic, heavy drug use seems to lead to more treatment-refractory primary DPD while people who experience DP after an isolated incident of cannabis use seem to recover quite often and quickly.


That's a significant problem. We know nothing for certain about the normal course of DPD and what predicts spontanous recovery. We only know that it is chronic for most people who register on this site or show up in clinics. Only longitudinal studies over several years could answer this question, but the DPRU won't to it, because it's dead. Maybe Michal does it and shows that he has at least some use, but I doubt it.



> The literature completely fails to make this distinction though with even people like Sierra lumping drug-induced DP into one monolithic category and then effectively discarding it. Of course, they also haven't studied outcomes much either..


I see it also this way. Drug-induced DPD may superfically not differ in terms of symptom presentation, but the underlying mechanisms may be different, than DPD in other contexts. This could mean that some treatments for non-drug DPD, will not work for drug-induced DPD and vice versa. In my collection I record for each user if the DPD was caused by a drug (including precription drugs) or psychotherapy-like treatments (like Meditation or hypnosis), to figure out if some treatments are superior to others depending on which drug induced the disorder, or if it was non-drug induced. For example people with Cannabis-induced DP might be resistant to Lamotrigine, while people with LSD-induced DPD could respond to anti-HPPD-treatments.

Another problem is that we do not know if there are certain subtypes of DPD. The symptoms seem to be quite variable, which is strikingly apparent in terms of racing thoughts and the blank mind. This could have implications for course and treatment. Some time ago I thought about applying the SCI-DER (or something homebrewn) on members and then use a clustering algorithm on the result vectors. But I'm not sure if this is the proper way to do this. There were a few attempts of subtyping by Stoerring, Ackner and Sedman (not sure), but they relied on associated symptoms like anxiety, depression and so on, which made them bullshitty.



> I haven't sold a single one of my uni books. I was always one of those students who bought the entire reading list plus extras that interested me. My CS/EE/maths bookshelf has more than 100 books on it. Cost me a minor fortune. In more recent years,


I also have quite some books, but the number is far below yours. The reason may be, because I found the material by the professor sufficient most of the time. Advanced math books are no easy stuff, especially if you try to solve the exercises. I also own Knuths Art of Computer Programming and Concrete Mathematics, but during my studies I never had the time to read them completely.



> I've obviously been adding medical textbooks to my collection as well. My book collection is one of my most prized collections. If there was a fire at my house, it would be one of the things I would miss the most, second only to my collection of computers and hard drives.


I think I'm going to (illegally) download some psychology book. Medical books would be better, but you are already reading them, so it would expand our collective knowledge more if I concentrate on the other part.



> Yes, I disagree that most students forget the fundamentals while studying their course. That's stupid. On most engineering courses, the stuff you learn in first year is used for the entire 3/4/5 years. If you forget it, you fail.


To ensure that this does not happen we had an intermediate examination after the first 4 semesters. It consisted of 3 oral examinations of all important courses of the first 2 years. If you fail in one of them 3 times, you are not only kicked out of university, but you are also banned from ever studying this subject again in Germany.


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

> You might as well use this wasted time we call DP and make it a little less wasteful.


If nothing works, no new research comes up and we don't kill ourselves, we have plenty of time, practically the eternity. It's good to know that we are not immortal.


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## Alex617 (Sep 23, 2015)

That's a very astute observation, panic attacks certainly triggered and kept my dp/dr going. I remember to this day my first panic attack, a kind of surreal darkness takes over that you simply can't handle. A few days later I was in another world. If I recall correctly, the breaking point was studying for an exam, I had several nights of insomnia and overloaded myself with caffeine.

I am not versed on secondary vs primary dp/dr. My knowledge is purely anecdotal, dp/dr in most literature is associated with anxiety disorders. How would one even develop dp/dr spontaneously? Do they wake up one day feeling off? Nearly every story I read here discusses drug use as a precursor, and the rest where they simply come asking for symptom validation without giving much background.

I'm also in the camp where I forget most of my education as soon as I finish an exam. I do biomedicine, lots of physiology and chemistry stuff that requires rote learning. I cram and forget, I can retain facts that mean something to me, not what's part of the criteria. I don't think that relates to intellect in any meaningful way. Then again, the heart of our education is practical application, you never forget those skills.

I also never bought a single textbook and those that do are seen as suckers who wasted their money. You use like 10% of them during the course and you can get all the information you need from the internet, PDF and a library. I bought one economics textbook that I read front to back but for pre-med they're 3,000 pages and cover topics far beyond the scope.


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## Alex617 (Sep 23, 2015)

Fair point, I think it's absolutely fantastic to be that passionate about something, and I don't think it's ever too late to pursue that PhD. Even if you don't go to Cambridge, school prestige isn't the end all be all (I fell for this trap though, I only applied to one college, the #1 ranked in my country without even considering if it was the right one for me). I'm kind of an anti-academic, for me school just served a purpose which was to become a qualified doctor. The ironic thing though, I would spend countless hours researching topics on my own volition that carried me through, just had to get better at writing formal reports and using proper citations everywhere. I would probably die in a research based profession, I want to deal with patients.

I'd like to add, while I'm not disagreeing that there might be a primary dp/dr cause, intense relaxation, meditation and intense exercise all served as triggers for me. I might go against the grain here, but I would actually recommend sufferers stay away from meditation, perhaps indefinitely. Feelings of derealization are actually seen as a common aspect of deep meditation. Intense exercise is still something I'm very careful with, things still get wonky if I try to go all out as I used to, but I'm getting better at dealing with it.

It's certainty saddens me to hear that some people suffer like this, and all I can really do at this point is offer my sympathy and advice on how to function within the storm, until we find enough treatment options to satisfy most people. I also totally agree with what you said to TDX, I believe that putting this tragedy in to a meaningful narrative can ultimately lead to progress that we would never consider otherwise. I would never for example have excelled in my pharmacology units if I didn't have an interest in researching compounds for treatment resistant depression.

**I'd like to add for the benefit of anyone reading this, if you have a very obvious cause for your dp/dr such as a panic attack and you find your symptoms get worse when you are anxious, with even the briefest moments of reprieve otherwise, you probably don't fit the criteria for idiopathic dp/dr**


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

> It may also be telling that benzodiazepines reduce DP in about half of all cases.


I'm still collecting, but it appears like your estimation is again a bit too high. Clonazeapm or Clonazepam+SSRI might have a success rate of 20 to 25%. Other benzos like Diazepam, Alprazolam and Lorazepam are much less effective.


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

> Where are these numbers coming from? I'm using a sort of average of all the data (retrospective and primary) that I used in the Psychiatric MT.


I'm reading Andys Forum and collecting all statments about a treatment that a user tried and assigned a rating to them, based on all statements.



> Obviously modulating GABA receptors has an indirect effect on glutamate so it's possible that this explains some cases but I doubt it's a significant percentage.


If Clonazepam is really more effective than other benzos, it wouldn't be that easy, because they are all anxiolytic and modulating GABA in a similar way if Wikipedia is right.


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## Alex617 (Sep 23, 2015)

TDX said:


> I'm still collecting, but it appears like your estimation is again a bit too high. Clonazeapm or Clonazepam+SSRI might have a success rate of 20 to 25%. Other benzos like Diazepam, Alprazolam and Lorazepam are much less effective.


What statistical inference do you have that you can say only 20-25% might have success? Also, why do you say the other class of benzodiazepines are less effective? Is it because clonazepam is mentioned more frequently, most likely because it's the most commonly prescribed benzo next to diazepam? Clonazepam has unique binding profile that makes it stand out in treatment of seizures, but I'm interested to hear your reasoning.

And of course the elephant in the room, if this is linked to GABA dysregulation, wouldn't that point towards the pathophysiology of anxiety disorder that shares these similar patterns?

I hope that the basis for all this discussion isn't forum posts. As the two most intelligent people on the forum I think you should know how unscientific that method is. Relying on subjective personal accounts provides no usable information whatsoever.


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## Meticulous (Jul 30, 2013)

There is a cure.. It's inside of your heads.


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

> Could you share your personal data with me at some point please? You seem to be sitting on a goldmine of original analyses from secondary sources.


When I'm finished with Andys Forum I will publish the results and the raw data on the forum.



> What statistical inference do you have that you can say only 20-25% might have success?


This is the proportion of treatment attempts which I rated with 2 (= significant improvement) or 3 (= strong improvement). I only gave numeric ratings if the user explicitely specified what the medication did to his DP (like "My DP got better", "It worked for my DP") or if he described the effects on his symptoms (like "I feel more real") , or if something like that is apparent from the context. Statements like "I got better", but did not tell what improved and did not have a context that suggests an anti/pro-DP-effect where NOT sufficient.

Otherwise the rating "?" (= unknown) was used, which was mostly replaced with 0 in a following step. This rests on the premise, that if users, who do not explicitely state that the DP symptoms got better, didn't have an effect on DP at all. This might result in a high specifity, but a somewhat lower sensivity for genuine treatment effects. So my numbers should be regarded more as lower bound, so they might not reveal the true success rate, but they might be useful to identify treatments that stand out.



> Also, why do you say the other class of benzodiazepines are less effective? Is it because clonazepam is mentioned more frequently, most likely because it's the most commonly prescribed benzo next to diazepam?


It was indeed the "favourite" benzo in this forum, but the other were also used by a high number of people.



> I hope that the basis for all this discussion isn't forum posts. As the two most intelligent people on the forum I think you should know how unscientific that method is. Relying on subjective personal accounts provides no usable information whatsoever.


I defined some criteria for rating of treatment experiences, but at the end there is a significant subjective component, among other methodological problems. But I'm not first one who tried to make use of forum posts:

http://www.mentalhealth.freeuk.com/acta.pdf

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1517/14728222.2016.1125884



> if something has effects, it can have side-effects. People have this perception that psychological treatment (and especially meditation) can only possibly be beneficial. But it's just not true. My mantra about side-efects applies to psychotherapeutic modalities as well as psychiatric treatment. Some people on here have been properly fucked up by therapy. And then there's the whole "false memory syndrome" controversy related to trauma therapy in particular. If something is guaranteed to be side-effect free, it doesn't work. Simple as that. I have yet to find a single counterexample.


That's another problem, that is often ignored, but some people seem to believe that psychotherapy can cure every mental illness, can solve all problems and bring world peace.


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## azteca2 (Apr 8, 2016)

TDX, isn't your DP atypical like mine? Without any of the out of body or strange symptoms like that. Early next year I'm going to get an mri just to see on the off chance there is some degenerative process in my brain. I might get a neural antibody spinal fluid test after that on the off chance something autoimmune related is effecting my brain. If these don't work and getting TMS doesn't work, I don't see many other options. I wonder if a doctor in a third world country would consider performing DBS off the books if paid in cash. If I could turn on the dopamine neurons in my brain I know I would feel a lot better


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## azteca2 (Apr 8, 2016)

Yeah unfortunately it does but if u get anxiety I think they could pull it out if u asked and they would stop the test. For me, my anxiety is only rare but this numb/foggy mental state is practically constant. Unless I use some kind of drug to elevate my dopamine flow. And DBS in America is such a selective process to get into a clinical trial. They do it on lab rats all the time tho lol. If I could somehow find a surgeon to do it, I would go for it .


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

> Shit. I was offered a GABAA and NMDA antibody test. I forgot it had to be taken via spinal tap. Suddenly I'm much less interested.


There was a study where they found that people with schizophrenia were much more likely to have anti-NMDA antibodys than comparison groups. In my opinion such a study should also be done with people with DPD, especially the ones who respond to Lamotrigine.



> I wonder if a doctor in a third world country would consider performing DBS off the books if paid in cash. If I could turn on the dopamine neurons in my brain I know I would feel a lot better


The question is if there is a 3rd world country where they do this. The other problem is where to stimulate.


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## azteca2 (Apr 8, 2016)

There's a study where they stimulated the ventral tegmental area, the cells that make dopamine. Also they have done this with optogenetics in rats


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

Have you tried blocking the kappa-opioid-receptor? It's supposed to have the effect of unblocking dopamine release.


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## azteca2 (Apr 8, 2016)

I havent


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## Zed (Jul 25, 2015)

King Elliott said:


> TDX is basically the anti-Zed. These guys are the most extreme representatives of their viewpoints that you'll find on this forum.
> 
> TDX believes that therapists are just waiting for you to turn your back so they can stick a pen deep into the side of your neck. Zed believes that medication will make you kill your family and your dog and then maybe yourself (if you're lucky).
> 
> Even though I lean heavily towards TDX's side of the argument on almost every issue, I can see that both of them are extremists in their own way.


Who do you think you are?? Labelling me an extremist and all the other crap you just wrote! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I suppose I'll have to spell it out to you again - hopefully you comprehend what I say this time. I"M NOT OPPOSED TO MEDICATION, I'M OPPOSED TO PSYCHIATRY. Medication has it's place if used correctly. I used medication correctly - I used it through the hardest times and then stopped when I didn't need it anymore.

Don't lie to people ok!

Who's the extremist? The person who doesn't believe anything unless it's been 'proven' by a peer reviewed empirical research - or someone who has an open mind and will try anything within reason? YOU are the person who has in the past who has told us only a fool would believe something that's not scientifically proven. Even if there's a chance it may help your recovery - you wouldn't advise trying anything that hasn't been proven. Well mate I've gotta say that that's about the most extreme attitude you'll find on this forum. And it's very narrow minded as well obviously. And why we're at it, let's talk natural treatments shall we? Over the years you seem to have summed up just about every natural treatment as being useless, and again I'd doubt you've tried much at all.

I have used many different modalities to aid my recovery. Many of which you mock with your snide remarks - eg, your snide comment about homeopathy the other day. Well let me ask you a question Elliott. Have you ever personally tried homeopathic remedies? Or are you basing your 'expert' opinion on something you read on the internet?

You're not an expert on this disorder. You've buried yourself in research that is entirely useless in aiding your recovery. You appear to not have any insight into any of the mental health issues you suffer from - yet you claim to be the expert who knows more about this disorder than most psychiatrists. Pheww... Give us a break.

You constantly claim talk therapy has little or no value in aiding recovery of DPD. Based your very limited experience with this type of therapy I find it hard to believe you can make any claims at all. It's a well known fact that therapy can take years - you most certainly have not spent years working on issues in therapy. If you had, you'd have a different opinion than you do that's for sure. I honestly don't think you realise how important it is to see a therapist who has the no-how and proper training when dealing with these issues. I would have thought an expert would be telling people that constantly?

You said .. 'TDX has treatment-refractory primary DPD'. I've noticed a few people have claimed to have this. When I told my therapist about this new term, she just laughed and said 'yeah and it was probably coined by the same person who coined the term 'chemical imbalance'. How can anyone know they have treatment refractory DPD? It's probably another term coined by some pharmaceutical company rep with the intention selling more drugs. Put fear in the people and you have them by the balls. Fear = more drugs. Simple.

Watch what you say Elliott. You're not the expert around here - far from it.


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## Alex617 (Sep 23, 2015)

King Elliott said:


> Thanks mate.
> 
> I can understand that. I'll be working behind the scenes on new models and cures and you'll be using them (hopefully!). So what's your current status then? How far did you get down the path of becoming a doctor? Are you still doing it? I had no idea that that was your aim. I'm impressed. And I also apologise for including explanations of terminology like "idiopathic" in my messages to you. For the overwhelming majority of people on here, they're helpful and/or necessary but I didn't realise you were one of us.
> 
> ...


Haha exactly. Research is what's driving the progress, and doctors simply apply that in a practical manner. I would suggest everyone who isn't cut out for either line of work to buy shares in companies who do the research they want done, people have to realize profit is the motivation of most major institutions and that's why dp/dr is only now getting noticed, with so many reports of it, it becomes more profitable. My current status is on leave, as it has for almost a year. It really pains me to see my schoolmates doing medicine all around the world, some of which I tutored, while I just sit here collecting moss. But I don't regret the decision, pursuing such a line of work requires you to be at your absolute best, until just about 2 months ago I was functioning at 10-20% capacity.

I also agree on your sentiment that anything we do can have unwanted results. When I hear people say something like "just meditate and eat gluten free and all your problems will improve", while it might be true, it's extremely arrogant to assume what works for you will work for everyone else. I mentioned a story earlier about how my first therapist put me in a bad place, so I agree that 'therapy' as a general recommendation is relatively meaningless. Finding the right person/s to help you is more important, and it doesn't have to be a therapist, anyone who can be there for you in a time of crisis is important.

I do understand the challenges involved in getting any data for this condition. There really isn't much information out there. Frankly, I wonder if we have any established methodology for properly researching it. I mean how do you set guidelines for a condition that has so many symptoms and so much overlapping with depression, anxiety, dissociation etc? Even with neurobiology, I remember in one of my modules we were taught that it's incredibly difficult to establish what a 'healthy' brain looks like in contrast to one that has a mental illness. So while we have evidence that say, a depressed persons brain has atrophy of the hypothalamus, we must take such evidence with a good degree of skepticism. Establishing baselines for a what a brain looks like relative to one with dp/dr would be even more difficult.

Not impossible however. And based on my own experiences with dp/dr I would ultimately conclude it will take several modes of treatment to get results suitable for everyone. Just because of how this condition affects many aspects of personal wellbeing. I can't understate the important of having the correct perspective, for example if I was to tell two people that they have 5 years left to live they could have completely different reactions. While one could use that as a motivator for living life to the fullest, the other could choose to end their life the very next day due to despair. Perspective is truly everything in life.



TDX said:


> When I'm finished with Andys Forum I will publish the results and the raw data on the forum.
> 
> This is the proportion of treatment attempts which I rated with 2 (= significant improvement) or 3 (= strong improvement). I only gave numeric ratings if the user explicitely specified what the medication did to his DP (like "My DP got better", "It worked for my DP") or if he described the effects on his symptoms (like "I feel more real") , or if something like that is apparent from the context. Statements like "I got better", but did not tell what improved and did not have a context that suggests an anti/pro-DP-effect where NOT sufficient.
> 
> ...


I'm happy to hear that you understand that while having some useful function, the results can't possibly provide an objective picture of what's going on with dp/dr as whole. My reasoning is:

1. The results will always be skewed, because forum posters meet three criteria: a ) English speaking b ) Currently in a state of suffering and c ) Have access to technology that can lead them to this forum.

2. You have a vested interest in the results. The more a person desires an outcome the more room there is for biases to emerge.

3. There is just an incredible amount of noise. My example, I had a benzo addiction back in 2012 after a major surgery. Meaning, if I take a benzo today I will not get the same effects as somebody else, I would describe my tolerance as permanent. We also have to consider that people here may be on various forms of medication which may interact with each other.

4. Age, ethnicity, sex, all important to removing noise from data. Much of this information isn't available through just forum posts.

5. There is absolutely no way to identify placebo or nocebo. If someone believes that hypnotism will improve their symptoms then it very well may.

There's many others, I couldn't get too technical because it's been like 5 years since I did statistics and I honestly forgot. But you get the point, it's important to take all of this with the same importance as we take our instincts.


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## Alex617 (Sep 23, 2015)

Zed said:


> Who do you think you are?? Labelling me an extremist and all the other crap you just wrote! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I suppose I'll have to spell it out to you again - hopefully you comprehend what I say this time. I"M NOT OPPOSED TO MEDICATION, I'M OPPOSED TO PSYCHIATRY. Medication has it's place if used correctly. I used medication correctly - I used it through the hardest times and then stopped when I didn't need it anymore.
> 
> Don't lie to people ok!
> 
> ...


Psychiatry is the profession of giving out medication, so how can you be opposed to that but not opposed to medicine?

Perhaps because they strictly rely on empirical evidence that you don't like them? It's important to understand that anything that works, can be proven with the scientific method, I am in the camp where I agree that it's fine to try things that aren't currently researched yet, but I can also understand why someone who tried countless treatments is becoming more reliant on the empirical evidence, it simply saves time and stops you from getting your hopes crushed if you aren't as extremely open minded.

By the way, homeopathy is complete bunk. I'm sorry, but diluting anything by 6X will remove the chance for any interaction it can have with your receptors. It's pure mysticism, a total fallacy.

I do agree with you on the therapy though, I honestly think everyone should have talk therapy without any expectations. It's the act of talking to another person, sharing your struggles and having someone listen to you that can have such a universally positive effect on your life. I don't suggest anyone suffers alone, mental illness *is *associated with suicide and no one should be isolated with it.


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

> 1. The results will always be skewed, because forum posters meet three criteria: a ) English speaking b ) Currently in a state of suffering and c ) Have access to technology that can lead them to this forum.


Yes, but at least a study of the DPRU suggests that this is not a severe problem:

http://journals.lww.com/jonmd/Abstract/2000/11000/Depersonalization_in_Cyberspace.7.aspx

"We explored the possibility of carrying out clinical research on the Internet. To do so, we compared psychometric and demographic variables between two groups of sufferers of depersonalization disorder, one recruited via the Internet, the other from outpatients attending the Depersonalization Research Unit. No differences were found in demographics or features of depersonalization. Those seen in the clinic were, however, significantly more depressed. We then explored the answers to several questions posted on a depersonalization bulletin board by a second group of Internet users. Useful information on symptoms, precipitants, and treatment was gained. It is concluded that the Internet could become a valuable tool in clinical psychiatric research."



> 2. You have a vested interest in the results. The more a person desires an outcome the more room there is for biases to emerge.


I have an interest in gaining results, but not WHAT results. I've not evaluated all data yet, but it looks like it contradicts some assumptions that I previously made. But of course, bias cannot be ruled out.



> 3. There is just an incredible amount of noise. My example, I had a benzo addiction back in 2012 after a major surgery. Meaning, if I take a benzo today I will not get the same effects as somebody else, I would describe my tolerance as permanent. We also have to consider that people here may be on various forms of medication which may interact with each other.


I tried to adresss this, by rating combinations.



> There's many others, I couldn't get too technical because it's been like 5 years since I did statistics and I honestly forgot. But you get the point, it's important to take all of this with the same importance as we take our instincts.


Look into the paper of Langguth et al that I provided. He says many other problems that cannot be eliminated, but I am aware of them. The data is not intended to PROVE that a certrain treatment is working (retrospective data cannot do this), but to identify treatments that COULD be working. Like Langguth says, the intention is to draw a bridge from animal research (or in the case of DP: No research) to clinical trials.



> 2. You should've been banned a long time ago for your behaviour towards other members of this site. You're in no position to take any kind of moral high-ground or stance of indignation.
> 
> 3. Don't threaten me. Compared to some of the things you've said to people on here in your time, what I said was laughable.
> 
> You're only ever one disgusting PM away from being banned. Nobody wants to ban you (not even me), which is the only reason you've survived this long despite the reports I've personally received in the last year.


That's true. Should I ever start collecting data on dpselfhelp.com I could also collect every statement that shows Zeds misconduct. This would yield much material.

An example not so long ago:

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/54714-psychiatry-is-a-fraud-is-all-about-control/


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## thy (Oct 7, 2015)

And this is why its good to have Elliott back. Threads worth reading!



King Elliott said:


> I think people on this forum tend to overlook the crucial distinction between secondary DP and primary DP/DPD far too often. I don't think it means a whole lot to talk about psychotherapy in the context of primary DPD because DPD would seem to be a neuropsychiatric condition.


You can say this again!


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## thy (Oct 7, 2015)

King Elliott said:


> I've seen this story so many times: "I smoked a bunch of weed one night then a month later I had a panic attack and got DP". I can't think of a single plausible mechanism for this delayed response but I've seen it too many times to label it a coincidence.


Does the fact that people report this necessarily mean there is any causal link between the two?

Unless you are talking about people that literally just have a panic attack out of nowhere a month after smoking weed, and this isn't something they usually experience. That would be very weird and suggest the drug had some kind of causal link.

Even then I would have thought it was the drug that just exacerbated pre existing anxiety or caused anxiety, which then meant a panic attack was more likely at a later time. Is this particularly mysterious?


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## Alex617 (Sep 23, 2015)

thy said:


> Does the fact that people report this necessarily mean there is any causal link between the two?
> 
> Unless you are talking about people that literally just have a panic attack out of nowhere a month after smoking weed, and this isn't something they usually experience. That would be very weird and suggest the drug had some kind of causal link.
> 
> Even then I would have thought it was the drug that just exacerbated pre existing anxiety or caused anxiety, which then meant a panic attack was more likely at a later time. Is this particularly mysterious?


n=1 but my panic attack that triggered my dp/dr occurred several days after I had a joint that put me in a weird place. It was the first of its kind I ever experienced, and as I recall, I was half asleep and it just hit me.


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## TDX (Jul 12, 2014)

I'm still hoping that they find a way to save ALKS-5461. At the moment I'm on Lamotrigine 400 mg/day and Fluoxetine 40 mg/day (going up to 60 mg/day), but I suppose that it's not going to work. I'm only increasing it to this dosage to make sure that I can be sure that the famous Lamotrigine+SSRI combination is not the right thing.


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## Zed (Jul 25, 2015)

Alex617 said:


> Psychiatry is the profession of giving out medication, so how can you be opposed to that but not opposed to medicine?


There's more to psychiatry than handing out medication. Who's responsible for diagnosing? Who runs the psych units the hospitals? Who writes the DSM? What profession is it telling us that normal human experiences are disorders?



Alex617 said:


> By the way, homeopathy is complete bunk. I'm sorry, but diluting anything by 6X will remove the chance for any interaction it can have with your receptors. It's pure mysticism, a total fallacy.


Ha. You have no idea. Another one of these 'experts' who've never tried homeopathy, yet know everything about it. Prove to us you're right.

1. Yeah mate a REALLY obvious joke. With a small kernel of truth... haha. Well here's a small kernel of truth for you....

2. The reason I haven't been banned is because there are no grounds to ban me. If that day ever comes, so be it.

Unfortunately for you I AM in a position to take the high ground here. I've been successfully recovering from a much more serious dissociative disorder than DP/DR for years now mainly through the use of natural treatments. I have over 6 years experience talking to experts almost weekly. And yes I've used mostly NATURAL TREATMENTS - the types which you are opposed to. So anyone reading this - know that there are plenty of natural harmless treatments and methods available for combatting a dissociative disorder and it's symptoms, which obviously should be explored before anything else.

I will always take a stance of indignation against someone who lies to us. I'll pick you up on another lie you've been spreading here soon...

3. Fill us all in on the so called disgusting PM's I've sent here. And don't try and weasel out of this saying 'what I said to you was laughable'. What you said was based on lies and a direct attack on my character. If you think you can call anyone an extremist and get away with it - you're living in a fantasy.

And mate you ought to see the amount of PM's I get from members asking 'who the hell is this guy'? Who does he think he is? He hasn't recovered one bit (in fact he continues to deteriorate) and he tells us all HE'S the expert WTF?? I'm not the only one who see through this guise. Like I said - you are NOT the expert here, so stop inferring that you are. We've had true experts come onto this site over the years and they've all left soon after for the simple reason that there is far too much of an emphasis on medication than actual healing. They never last very long do they? From the several I've spoken to over the last 5 or 6 years via PM's - they really couldn't be bothered dealing with such belligerent fools.

If you can't handle someone who disagrees with your approach of 'first off go seek a psychiatrist and get onto medication' then you're in the wrong place - move onto a forum strictly for psychiatrists. This is exactly what your approach is, and I see it almost every time you log onto this site. You sit there and steer every person you can looking for advice straight into using psych meds without even recommending they try the other less harmful treatments first. What kind of a person would recommend seeking out the most harmful treatments first? Only a person with an agenda obviously. Which pharmaceutical company is it that you work for? I see exactly how you work this place and the people here...

You hardly responded to anything I said on my last post. So I'll say it again so more people see the truth - You are not the expert around here. You know a ton of theoretical garbage which obviously doesn't help you recover one bit and is not going to help anyone else. You install a false sense of security in people by making them believe you know more than most about this disorder - the sad truth is, you actually know very little, and your 'results' speak for themselves.


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## Zed (Jul 25, 2015)

This is nothing but a lie. It a shame you have to lower yourself to this degree Elliott in an effort to try and make yourself look superior. I have never suggested anyone kill themselves in a PM nor a post and I would never do that. No staff has EVER said I have. If this was true obviously I would have been permanently banned a long time ago.. it's clearly it's a false statement. You're plainly trying to discredit me because I pose a threat to the way you wish this forum to operate..

On the subject of lies.... Elliott when you joined this forum a 2 years ago you told us all you were a university drop-out unable to complete your studies due to overwhelming DP. I read just the other day a post where you now state you in fact not only gained your degree (in engineering science of some kind?) you also have your MASTERS. OHH come on... Some of us have very good memories - well and truly good enough to remember what you said only 2 years ago.

Why is it you have to bolster your reputation with lies?


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