# The Answer/Cure (9 years trapped)



## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

Hello,

My name is Trés Calhoun. I first developed severe DPD/DRD after I experienced a panic attack while high from marijuana. That was in 2011. From the moment I woke up until 9 years later I experienced constant dissociation with only a total of maybe 3 minutes worth of "moments of clarity" throughout.
I will try to condense everything I know into the shortest format for you. Please understand that I know what I am talking about. I am currently a Psych Rehab Counselor and go to college for Substance Abuse Counseling (before you stop reading this is applicable to all you non-drug users too)! In my free time I study this subject because too many people are silently suffering from this torturous disorder.

1. How you got depersonalization/derealization does not matter, the problem is still the same. The problem is a learned poor coping mechanism in response to chronic trauma. Usually this trauma will be apparent (physical/sexual/emotional abuse) or not so apparent (neglect and/or nutritional deficiency). Some people fight against trauma, some people flee from trauma, you learned to freeze in the face of it. To endure the trauma and dissociate through it. So why do some people dissociate through it and then stop dissociating after the trauma is gone while you're stuck like this?

2. Because dissociation is natural but chronic trauma is not. So simply put, your dissociation hasn't stopped because the trauma hasn't stopped. So first look outside yourself. Do you see any trauma? Anxiety? Isolation (neglect)? Abuse? Bullying? Lost love? Okay, now look inward. See any trauma? Do you eat the correct amount of calories for your body weight consistently? Do you keep your blood sugars stable with fiber/rich whole grains? Do you eat enough protein for the amino acids that make neurotransmitters? Do you have all your vitamins and minerals consistently?
Something that blew my mind is that the body cant tell wether you're doing something to it intentionally or not. So if you're depressed and lack the nutrients to experience hunger then you wont eat all day but your body doesnt know that this is a choice you're making. So if you dont see trauma that you can address outside yourself with a therapist or better coping strategies then the answer is: YOU'RE NOT FOCUSED ENOUGH ON TAKING CARE OF YOURSELF INSIDE.
A few years back I watched a great YouTube video that talked about dissociation and animals. Unfortunately I couldn't find it for this post. The video basically said when a deer is being chased by a predator it has an immediate fight or flight response. It will run for its life (because deer dont tend to fight back or freeze when chased) so it will have anxiety. The neurotransmitter epinephrine aka addrenaline will be used from the adrenal glands and the deer will get a boost of "high alert" to get away from the predator. But what happens when the deer runs out of adrenaline and the predator is still chasing it (chronic trauma)? The deer's body prepares itself for unimaginable pain and suffering from being torn apart by dissociating. Dissociating is your body helping to protect you from yourself or your environment putting it at chronic risk of death. If you feel scared by that idea look at it like this: The lifestyle you've been leading has convinced your body it's heading towards death (it is, but not like...immediate death. More like 20-40 years from now) and that it should prepare for that. So you're body is trying to help you. SO HOW DO WE FIX DEPERSONALIZATION/DEREALIZATION?

3. Convince your body that you're okay and definitely not dying. How do you do that? Eat enough, get your vitamins and minerals, if you have chronic anxiety address your electrolytes (you probably need potassium or magnesium even if a blood test says your fine because they're stored in your bone not your blood), sleep enough consistently, be social, workout, etc.

4. So why does most of the advice you've heard NOT work? Because people find what they were missing in their lives and parade it around as the solution. That was what THEY were missing. You're missing your own nutrients. You're own social interactions. Your own healthy coping mechanisms. So yeah for Tom his solution was solving his generalized anxiety and high glutamate wheras you might be something completely different.

5. My general advice (adjust this on a case by case basis) Take a whole food multivitamin for vitamins and minerals. If it doesnt contain enough magnesium get magnesium oxide too. Vitamins and minerals work synergistically meaning together. So taking one here and there isn't going to help. Take fish oil or krill oil for improved neurotransmission. Increase protein (just eat meat, dont do any powders, even the healthy vegan ones) for the amino acids that are building blocks of neurotransmitters. If you have anxiety whole grains and dark leafy greens will get you tons of magnesium and coconut water will get you potassium. If you need immediate relief try smoking or making tea from hemp flower (not marijuana with THC) especially an indica dominant strain. Or if you fear that try hemp milk from a grocery store. I promise you will not fee more dissociated. But if you dont trust my word then even green tea or matcha will help because of the L-Theanine content.

Again, my name is Trés Calhoun. I wish you the best and please feel free to reach out with questions.


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## NoDevils (6 mo ago)

Unusually insightful. I want to add two things. First, people should get as much of their nutrients as possible from healthy food that is suitable to their personal digestive system. Second, looking inward to nurture self and heal trauma can be difficult because it requires acknowledgement of self and of trauma. It's important to balance introspection with some sense of involvement in physical reality and social communities, something that is sorely missing in the modern world. People turn to drugs, usually harmful recreational or helpful psychopharmacological, because their relationship with society is missing something.


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## dpdrhaver184 (2 mo ago)

How did you fix your DP/DR? What was the problem for you? And was your recovery gradual or sudden?

Also, how did you come to the conclusion that diet matters so much when fixing DP/DR? Based on your logic I don't see why it would matter too much.
Chronic trauma is not normal now and was not normal when we were evolving. So it makes sense that it may contribute to DP/DR.

But poor nutrition is very normal now and was even more normal when we were evolving. Eating a stable amount of calories every day is a modern invention that wasn't part of the environment we grew up in. Our bodies are adapted to deal with food, vitamin, and mineral shortages. Hardly anyone in the past got all of their vitamins and minerals consistently.
Also, I thought "keeping your blood sugar stable" involves eating every couple of hours. Yet intermittent fasting is said to have huge neurological benefits.
So why wouldn't everyone in the past have had DP/DR?

I'm not saying food doesn't matter and you should eat like shit, but I don't know why you think eating in a way we are not evolved to eat would help solve DP/DR.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

NoDevils said:


> Unusually insightful. I want to add two things. First, people should get as much of their nutrients as possible from healthy food that is suitable to their personal digestive system. Second, looking inward to nurture self and heal trauma can be difficult because it requires acknowledgement of self and of trauma. It's important to balance introspection with some sense of involvement in physical reality and social communities, something that is sorely missing in the modern world. People turn to drugs, usually harmful recreational or helpful psychopharmacological, because their relationship with society is missing something.


No Devils,

I agree thoroughly with that first part. I spent so much money and time on supplements because I wanted a quicker and more potent fix. Unfortunately this is a flawed mindset. You need slow, natural, constant diet. The second part I agree with too however personally I prioritize the chemical/biological over the outward physical only because it's harder to develop healthy habits when your chemicals aren't right. But overall Im glad to see other people have found the same solution.

Thank you


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

dpdrhaver184 said:


> How did you fix your DP/DR? What was the problem for you? And was your recovery gradual or sudden?
> 
> Also, how did you come to the conclusion that diet matters so much when fixing DP/DR? Based on your logic I don't see why it would matter too much.
> Chronic trauma is not normal now and was not normal when we were evolving. So it makes sense that it may contribute to DP/DR.
> ...


DpDrHaver184,

I welcome your healthy skepticism, I am running errands so I may answer this kind of poorly but i'll try to address everything. Intermittent fasting is great, yes, I recommend eating two meals. One at 12pm and one at 8pm and nothing the rest of the time but it's not too beneficial too dpd/drd. Healthy eating involves consuming complex carbs that contain more fiber. Fiber is broken down more slowly and keeps your blood sugar stable for much much longer than the alternative.

Mine was a gradual dissapation. Again, dissociation is natural so even on a good day it's never entirely gone. Most people just arent aware of the sensation nor are they constantly checking for it. It ebs and flows. The goal is just decreasing it (like anxiety). My fix was utilizing all of the things I suggested towards the end of my post. I was physically, emotionally, sexually abused and rarely ate or ate a ton of bad foods. Rarely worked out, had insomnia....I mean I was asking for it.
How did I come to the conclusion that diet mattered so much? Not listening to word of mouth anecdotes but rather the .edu and .org and journal articles. Plus im very interested in medicine/nutrition so I was just lucky. I refused to spend my life this way. I got married, lost my older brother, and had a child all while not feeling real. I refused to die that way too.

Sorry, gotta go but i'll answer more soon.


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## NoDevils (6 mo ago)

Tres said:


> No Devils,
> 
> I agree thoroughly with that first part. I spent so much money and time on supplements because I wanted a quicker and more potent fix. Unfortunately this is a flawed mindset. You need slow, natural, constant diet. The second part I agree with too however personally I prioritize the chemical/biological over the outward physical only because it's harder to develop healthy habits when your chemicals aren't right. But overall Im glad to see other people have found the same solution.
> 
> Thank you


I agree the neurobiological aspect is huge. I'd never advise someone to simply act as if they don't have a mental illness one hundred percent of the time. I was more so thinking from a social justice perspective there are people who are alienated and need to find some point of contact with society that's helpful to them. The relationship between social health and neurobiological health is probably interrelated, like if I got threatened with eviction tomorrow my biological systems would be upset.


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## Aridity (Jun 12, 2011)

While I also hugely believe in a having a clean diet is very important, it never cured my condition. I believe I practiced a very strict diet of healthy foods, and not consuming any alcohol nor drugs. Supplements at least a few thousands euros spend, every Magnesium out there I still take Magnesium Citrate almost every night don't even know why. I do still have to much stressors and unresolved trauma but I can't resolve the trauma because of the Dissociation so yeah what now.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

Aridity said:


> While I also hugely believe in a having a clean diet is very important, it never cured my condition. I believe I practiced a very strict diet of healthy foods, and not consuming any alcohol nor drugs. Supplements at least a few thousands euros spend, every Magnesium out there I still take Magnesium Citrate almost every night don't even know why. I do still have to much stressors and unresolved trauma but I can't resolve the trauma because of the Dissociation so yeah what now.


Hello Aridity, 

Again, I welcome criticism. Truth that has not been criticized is only a hypothesis. 
In my experience people with this disorder sometimes go down the dietary route but aren't typically well-read on what a healthy diet actually is. For instance, you could eat healthy things and still have an overall poor diet due to a lack of diversity, valuing supplements over caloric food, aimless/goal-less dieting, undereating/overeating, etc. So my question in return is: What do you mean you were eating healthy?


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

NoDevils said:


> I agree the neurobiological aspect is huge. I'd never advise someone to simply act as if they don't have a mental illness one hundred percent of the time. I was more so thinking from a social justice perspective there are people who are alienated and need to find some point of contact with society that's helpful to them. The relationship between social health and neurobiological health is probably interrelated, like if I got threatened with eviction tomorrow my biological systems would be upset.


Hello again NoDevils,

Oh yeah, for sure. One of my favorite lecturers, Dr. Gabor Maté talks about that correlation specifically as it relates to addiction very often. They are intertwined without a doubt. I just see the first loose string as the biological is all. 

We are conscious but I feel like recently as a society we've really neglected our humanity. It's almost as if the technology has many people trying to transcend flesh and bone preemptively. Idk.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

Hello,

I also just want to address this preemptively: I understand that there are a lot of people claiming various cures on this website ranging from medical to integrative to psychological to dietary, however, this is the one singular solution. The magic pill doesn't exist. The answer is boring, requires consistent effort, and takes a while to work. This also explains why there are so many different "answers". Dpd/Drd is the symptom of an overall unhealthy lifestyle.

I can't lie, I used to be bitter when all the people used to criticize the solution claiming to have "tried it". But I understand, it's scary to realize that you need to change a lot of fundamental lifestyle habits. I also have a newfound understanding since getting into substance abuse counseling with an emphasis in nutritional intervention of how completely undereducated people are when it comes to nutrition alone let alone nutrition's correlation to mental health and addiction. So most people half-ass it or think they're doing it right when in reality they're just preventing other people's recovery by spreading misinformation.

Unfortunately, it's time to grow up. The era of being ignorant is over. Get sun, get sleep, exercise, eat, be social, etc. Do what a human does and you'll feel like a human is supposed to.


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## Aridity (Jun 12, 2011)

Tres said:


> Hello Aridity,
> 
> Again, I welcome criticism. Truth that has not been criticized is only a hypothesis.
> In my experience people with this disorder sometimes go down the dietary route but aren't typically well-read on what a healthy diet actually is. For instance, you could eat healthy things and still have an overall poor diet due to a lack of diversity, valuing supplements over caloric food, aimless/goal-less dieting, undereating/overeating, etc. So my question in return is: What do you mean you were eating healthy?


Trust me I was eating healthy, a well varied diet of proteins greens and fruits. No sugar, no sweets soda no cigarettes no alcohol no drugs. 5/6 times a week working out. Lots of water. It did help but never cured my DP/DR, I think a big factor of my dpdr staying this bad is my phone addiction 9/10 hours a day on it.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

Aridity said:


> Trust me I was eating healthy, a well varied diet of proteins greens and fruits. No sugar, no sweets soda no cigarettes no alcohol no drugs. 5/6 times a week working out. Lots of water. It did help but never cured my DP/DR, I think a big factor of my dpdr staying this bad is my phone addiction 9/10 hours a day on it.


Hello Aridity,

I doubt that phone use has much more to do with DPD/DRD than being a bad habit that reenforces the poor coping response to trauma. A lot of the population is "addicted" to their smart phones without DPD/DRD. Water isn't really helpful unless you're dehydrated, I mean it's good to drink instead of sugary drinks but it's not really an important factor. In fact too much can deplete your electrolytes. I'm more focused on what specific issues you were trying to solve dietarily and the logic behind the dietary choices you made.


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## Dragoon909 (2 mo ago)

Tres,

May I ask: How bad was your derealization?

Just explain it the best you can.
I'm curious to know.

Thanks.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

Hey Dragoon909,

Im so mad at myself because I literally just deleted my old post that detailed this. Anyways, here's the shortened version (note, at the time I was experiencing intermingled symptoms of nutritional deficiency and anxiety as well): 


A dulling of colors
A lack of spatial understanding (for instance, inside and outside felt the same somehow)
A feeling that I was my internal monologue while my physical body was on autopilot
A general feeling of disconnect from everything
A feeling that I was in a movie simply based on visual perception
"Visual Snow"
A fear of sleep, repetition, and losing control mentally


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## Aridity (Jun 12, 2011)

Tres said:


> Hello Aridity,
> 
> I doubt that phone use has much more to do with DPD/DRD than being a bad habit that reenforces the poor coping response to trauma. A lot of the population is "addicted" to their smart phones without DPD/DRD. Water isn't really helpful unless you're dehydrated, I mean it's good to drink instead of sugary drinks but it's not really an important factor. In fact too much can deplete your electrolytes. I'm more focused on what specific issues you were trying to solve dietarily and the logic behind the dietary choices you made.


Well caring good for your body is supposed to be good for your mental health, so basically I quit all rubbish in order to help my mental health. Anxiety etc, but I think I need a different approach, and I do think the phone usage is fucking my dopamine up so yeah not giving my brain the rest it needs, keeping the dpdr alive.


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## Dragoon909 (2 mo ago)

Tres said:


> Hey Dragoon909,
> 
> Im so mad at myself because I literally just deleted my old post that detailed this. Anyways, here's the shortened version (note, at the time I was experiencing intermingled symptoms of nutritional deficiency and anxiety as well):
> 
> ...


I have all those symptoms.

I sometimes can go outside, and it feels the same.

Kinda like the sky is a "ceiling"...


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

Tres said:


> Hey Dragoon909,
> 
> Im so mad at myself because I literally just deleted my old post that detailed this. Anyways, here's the shortened version (note, at the time I was experiencing intermingled symptoms of nutritional deficiency and anxiety as well):
> 
> ...


Given that you had symptoms of nutritional deficiency and that your solution involves things around food, it sounds like the source of your problem was that you had particularly poor eating habits and/or poor knowledge about nutrition. It's good there is a lot of information about this around, and it's great that it could help you recover.


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## Dragoon909 (2 mo ago)

Before I got the derealization, which was caused by stress and a full day of anxiety--I ate poorly. I will admit! 
A pot of coffee a day, sodas, sweets and I did have the occasional healthy dinner. 

My derealization also brought on tinnitus and a few other symptoms. 

I have been eating better lately, but no changes much in the derealization. 

I can't drink coffee right now either because of anxiety.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

Aridity said:


> Well caring good for your body is supposed to be good for your mental health, so basically I quit all rubbish in order to help my mental health. Anxiety etc, but I think I need a different approach, and I do think the phone usage is fucking my dopamine up so yeah not giving my brain the rest it needs, keeping the dpdr alive.


Hello Aridity, 

Yeah, phones certainly don't help with dopamine detoxing but they're not really exacerbating dopamine issues either. It's more like the mechanism by which you cope with poor dopamine levels. As you've likely heard before a much more immediate solution would be the amino acid L-Tyrosine at around 250-350mg along with a multivitamin to help convert that Tyrosine into Dopamine. 

I will say that I think you most likely could benefit from a more targeted approach. Personally, for all my clients I always recommend a whole food multivitamin as the foundational layer. Then I usually tell them to calculate their macronutrients based on body weight so we can get a stable protein intake that will help to restore missing neurotransmitters. But I don't recommend protein powders since raising any neurotransmitter level beyond where it should be can cause imbalance. We're looking for perfect balance. Then I usually say fish or krill oil for omega 3's that help with nuerotransmission. And sometimes a shelf stable probiotic just to stimulate healthy appetite cravings. Simple. Linear. Weaponized regemin. 

Then for diet you should be consuming all your calories, fats, carbs, protein, and fiber every day. No under-eating. Fasting is okay to do but it's not really a priority and should not exceed a full day. Whole grain bread and pasta, wild rice, quinoa are the heavier carbs that are healthy. Throw out that white flour, potatoes, white rice, normal pasta, and white bread. Other than that.......all the stuff you know to do. Lean meats, extra virgin olive oil, healthy fats, fruits and veggies.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

Trith said:


> Given that you had symptoms of nutritional deficiency and that your solution involves things around food, it sounds like the source of your problem was that you had particularly poor eating habits and/or poor knowledge about nutrition. It's good there is a lot of information about this around, and it's great that it could help you recover.


Hello Trith, 

Actually it was more than that. I had to change who I was as a person from the ground up (lifestyle changes and self actualization). But yeah, in this thread I'm definitely hyperfocused on the nutritional aspect because it's the most immediate correlation plus usually people have a harder time understanding its involvement in the disorder.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

Dragoon909 said:


> Before I got the derealization, which was caused by stress and a full day of anxiety--I ate poorly. I will admit!
> A pot of coffee a day, sodas, sweets and I did have the occasional healthy dinner.
> 
> My derealization also brought on tinnitus and a few other symptoms.
> ...


Hello again, 

So eating healthy requires a very specific guidelines most important of which are: Watch your calories and macronutrients. Get a little journal and track everything. It's annoying and time consuming but it's life-changing on its own. Then include your whole food multivitamin and fish oil for an extra boost. 

As far as anxiety goes: If you experience high anxiety the solution is magnesium and/or potassium. Eat a bowl of spinach and drink a little coconut water every night and it'll go away within a week or two tops. You can replace the spinach with a magnesium supplement but potassium supplements are dangerous. 
In the meantime you can smoke a few puffs of an indica-strain hemp, drink a cup of hemp milk, or try matcha/green tea as an alternative. 
If you have a panic attack I'd recommend chugging a glass of water to thin the blood immediately in order to lower the blood pressure and stop the throbbing heart sensation, then following it with one of the above options.


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

Still, a lot of this doesn't make sense, I think. Anxiety is not a useless reaction. It's purpose is to protect from something that is perceived as a danger. If people stopped being anxious as soon as they ate spinach and coconut water, they would constantly end up in bad situations or get killed.
Also we won't make anxiety disappear in all the world by giving spinach and coconut water to people. I don't believe that people who fear for their lives in Ukraine should simply drink coconut water to feel better. Yet you say you are sure this is the one solution and anxiety should be gone in one or two weeks, without even knowing about the cause of that anxiety.

You also talk about the fact that DPDR would be a protection mechanism in preparation for death. But natural selection favors characteristics that help living things pass their genes. Once you are going to die you have no chance to pass your genes, so there is no reason why natural selection would favor something that is useless from an evolutionary perspective. It is far more likely that DPDR helps people to not be impeded by their emotions and keep thinking and making rational decisions so as to maximize their chances of saving their lives, not to prepare for death.

And it doesn't have to be chronic at all. Plenty of people have DPDR as a result of a single bad trip, it happens immediately or the next day. Some people who have been involved in accidents report that they were out of their body when they reacted, they were witnessing their thoughts, it felt like they were not the ones making decisions, they did not feel afraid but purely rational. Dissociation does not have to happen after anything chronic.

Also, I am curious, why did you delete all your previous posts on this forum?


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## leminaseri (Jul 1, 2020)

Trith said:


> Still, a lot of this doesn't make sense, I think. Anxiety is not a useless reaction. It's purpose is to protect from something that is perceived as a danger. If people stopped being anxious as soon as they ate spinach and coconut water, they would constantly end up in bad situations or get killed.
> Also we won't make anxiety disappear in all the world by giving spinach and coconut water to people. I don't believe that people who fear for their lives in Ukraine should simply drink coconut water to feel better. Yet you say you are sure this is the one solution and anxiety should be gone in one or two weeks, without even knowing about the cause of that anxiety.
> 
> You also talk about the fact that DPDR would be a protection mechanism in preparation for death. But natural selection favors characteristics that help living things pass their genes. Once you are going to die you have no chance to pass your genes, so there is no reason why natural selection would favor something that is useless from an evolutionary perspective. It is far more likely that DPDR helps people to not be impeded by their emotions and keep thinking and making rational decisions so as to maximize their chances of saving their lives, not to prepare for death.
> ...


you need to differentiate hardly between anxiety in itself and why your body or mind perceives anxiety. when he or me, or anything else talks about getting rid of anxiety we dont talk about the entire emotional mechanism. its not about having zero anxiety as you gave the instance with we got in bad situations. sometimes if you have pathological anxiety it can give you a horrible experience. and the best instance i can give here is the fear of going crazy or losing control. if you preach that loud and attack him for him saying you need to solve your anxiety, can you answer me why people feels that theyre going crazy? did you ever researched what gluten can do to people who are hypothyroid? so you really think its just nutrition man this guy thinks he figured out the truth and therefore you are angry at him. but sorry, his opinions have to me much much more value than yours, because while he got cured after 9 years, is the only same thing i always hear from you „i have dpdr constantly for 22 years and nothing helped. my anxiety got better with time but my dpdr stayed the same“ this is not even helpful if you ask me? really. 

second, if you think that people gets dpdr just from the drugs youre completely wrong. as someone who got once dpdr due to a bad trip with drugs, my life seemed til to that point to become very senseless and empty. i had have suffered over a very long time bullying and emotional neglect. weed just triggered it it wasnt the cause.


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## Peter (Jun 25, 2018)

> i had have suffered over a very long time bullying and emotional neglect. weed just triggered it it wasnt the cause.


So, people endure bullying for *years* or even *decades* and they never get depersonalization throughout this time. Then they take cannabis *once* and get depersonalization for the remainder of their life.

But still the cause is bullying, but not cannabis...?


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## coolwhip27 (Mar 14, 2015)

Peter said:


> So, people endure bullying for *years* or even *decades* and they never get depersonalization throughout this time. Then they take cannabis *once* and get depersonalization for the remainder of their life.
> 
> But still the cause is bullying, but not cannabis...?


Wow, your stupid argument proves nothing besides your own ignorance. The mind can become damaged, and smoking weed can bring all that damage to the forefront and consequently break it (detachment). Your argument ignores all of that, as if the mind cant become unhealthy over time. As if the mind has nothing to do with it! Lol, I hope I don’t see another fuck dumb comment like this.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

Trith said:


> Still, a lot of this doesn't make sense, I think. Anxiety is not a useless reaction. It's purpose is to protect from something that is perceived as a danger. If people stopped being anxious as soon as they ate spinach and coconut water, they would constantly end up in bad situations or get killed.
> Also we won't make anxiety disappear in all the world by giving spinach and coconut water to people. I don't believe that people who fear for their lives in Ukraine should simply drink coconut water to feel better. Yet you say you are sure this is the one solution and anxiety should be gone in one or two weeks, without even knowing about the cause of that anxiety.
> 
> You also talk about the fact that DPDR would be a protection mechanism in preparation for death. But natural selection favors characteristics that help living things pass their genes. Once you are going to die you have no chance to pass your genes, so there is no reason why natural selection would favor something that is useless from an evolutionary perspective. It is far more likely that DPDR helps people to not be impeded by their emotions and keep thinking and making rational decisions so as to maximize their chances of saving their lives, not to prepare for death.
> ...


Hello again,
Uh, we are obviously referring to anxiety that is unwanted/a symptom rather than natural and helpful anxiety. So my spinach and coconut water response still stands. 
Secondly, I know that as well. Because as I just explained, dissociation and dissociative disorder are two separate things. Same as anxiety and anxiety disorder. 
I gotta say, your responses are turning from healthy discussion and evaluation into some strange and aimless interrogation. You have me repeating my answers as well. I can't walk the dogs with you. I gave you plenty, im not going to endlessly explain these things to you so take what I say and crack open a book. 

My older posts included trauma and bad memories.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

leminaseri said:


> you need to differentiate hardly between anxiety in itself and why your body or mind perceives anxiety. when he or me, or anything else talks about getting rid of anxiety we dont talk about the entire emotional mechanism. its not about having zero anxiety as you gave the instance with we got in bad situations. sometimes if you have pathological anxiety it can give you a horrible experience. and the best instance i can give here is the fear of going crazy or losing control. if you preach that loud and attack him for him saying you need to solve your anxiety, can you answer me why people feels that theyre going crazy? did you ever researched what gluten can do to people who are hypothyroid? so you really think its just nutrition man this guy thinks he figured out the truth and therefore you are angry at him. but sorry, his opinions have to me much much more value than yours, because while he got cured after 9 years, is the only same thing i always hear from you „i have dpdr constantly for 22 years and nothing helped. my anxiety got better with time but my dpdr stayed the same“ this is not even helpful if you ask me? really.
> 
> second, if you think that people gets dpdr just from the drugs youre completely wrong. as someone who got once dpdr due to a bad trip with drugs, my life seemed til to that point to become very senseless and empty. i had have suffered over a very long time bullying and emotional neglect. weed just triggered it it wasnt the cause.


Hello Leminaseri,

I appreciate your input, it saved me a lot of time explaining it to Trith. I know that this is the answer, factually. So poke as many respectful holes or ask as many respectful questions as you want. 
Working with clients with co-occurring mental health and substance use issues I consider a merging of the mind and body to be step 1 in fixing people. No point in talking about healthy lifestyles and coping mechanisms if your intentions and actions/mind and body don't match


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

Peter said:


> So, people endure bullying for *years* or even *decades* and they never get depersonalization throughout this time. Then they take cannabis *once* and get depersonalization for the remainder of their life.
> 
> But still the cause is bullying, but not cannabis...?


Hello Peter,

So again, the onset mechanism isn't really important for recovery other than knowing what to avoid. We're focused on the internal environment that makes one person interact with that onset mechanism and walk away fine and another develop dissociation disorder. 
To which the answer is that for some people their reaction is to freeze in the face of trauma. So if trauma is chronic so is the freezing. Same with fight or flight. If a person who's reaction is to fight has chronic trauma they usually end up becoming generally violent towards stressors. And people who's reaction is flight who encounters chronic trauma are more likely to be jittery and avoid encounters with the stressors altogether.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

Peter said:


> So, people endure bullying for *years* or even *decades* and they never get depersonalization throughout this time. Then they take cannabis *once* and get depersonalization for the remainder of their life.
> 
> But still the cause is bullying, but not cannabis...?


Sorry Peter,

I knew I had forgotten something. Also, yes, marijuana is categorized as a dissociative drug and would therefore expose a person to intense and long-lasting dissociation. Chemically, constant use would train a person's brain and neurotransmitters to dissociate. 
That being said, my onset was from marijuana and honestly I tend to occasionally smoke indica hemp flower now because THC has downsides and the sativa heavy strain of hemp flower can be mildly dissociative. I used to use alcohol to feel more present but it sucked because the dissociation would subside a little but I was still drunk so I couldn't fully enjoy the relief.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

coolwhip27 said:


> Wow, your stupid argument proves nothing besides your own ignorance. The mind can become damaged, and smoking weed can bring all that damage to the forefront and consequently break it (detachment). Your argument ignores all of that, as if the mind cant become unhealthy over time. As if the mind has nothing to do with it! Lol, I hope I don’t see another fuck dumb comment like this.


Hey Coolwhip27,

I actually just read a really good book about how physical and dietary trauma can cause very measurable damage to the brain. Let me see if I can link a picture to the book.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

coolwhip27 said:


> Wow, your stupid argument proves nothing besides your own ignorance. The mind can become damaged, and smoking weed can bring all that damage to the forefront and consequently break it (detachment). Your argument ignores all of that, as if the mind cant become unhealthy over time. As if the mind has nothing to do with it! Lol, I hope I don’t see another fuck dumb comment like this.


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

Tres said:


> Hello again,
> Uh, we are obviously referring to anxiety that is unwanted/a symptom rather than natural and helpful anxiety. So my spinach and coconut water response still stands.
> Secondly, I know that as well. Because as I just explained, dissociation and dissociative disorder are two separate things. Same as anxiety and anxiety disorder.
> I gotta say, your responses are turning from healthy discussion and evaluation into some strange and aimless interrogation. You have me repeating my answers as well. I can't walk the dogs with you. I gave you plenty, im not going to endlessly explain these things to you so take what I say and crack open a book.
> ...


But please do walk the dogs with me. If through education, my parents teach me the fear of Hispanic people, for example, because they are racist. Would you consider this natural/healthy anxiety? And if my parents teach me to be afraid to swim in a beach that actually has lots of sharks, would you consider this natural/healthy anxiety?

Just to make sure, I totally understand that deficiencies can make someone more prone to anxiety or make anxiety stronger, and that magnesium can help reduce anxiety in some cases and to a certain extent. But that's not what you are saying. You are saying that "unhealthy" anxiety is always cured by taking magnesium, or that magnesium deficiency is the only one cause of unhealthy anxiety. I think we are slowly drifting from "Magnesium is the only one cure to anxiety", to "magnesium is the only solution to anxiety, but only if that anxiety is caused by magnesium deficiency, otherwise the solution is something else". Which is very different and kind of obvious.

And for your information, when you delete a post only the original post is deleted, all the thread below remains. This is how we can know that in a post that you deleted in the "treatment options" (so not really about trauma, right?) the thread was nearly closed because you were acting arrogant and could not take any criticism:



















Or you say this kind of thing here :



Tres said:


> Unfortunately, it's time to grow up. The era of being ignorant is over. Get sun, get sleep, exercise, eat, be social, etc. Do what a human does and you'll feel like a human is supposed to.


I think it is fair I answer to you in this mildly harsh way. You are basically saying that everybody here is a child that needs to grow up and an ignorant, and that you are here to deliver THE only one solution. Maybe some people like to be talked to that way, but personally this enters in conflict with my dignity.



Tres said:


> I also just want to address this preemptively: I understand that there are a lot of people claiming various cures on this website ranging from medical to integrative to psychological to dietary, however, this is the one singular solution.
> [...]
> I can't lie, I used to be bitter when all the people used to criticize the solution claiming to have "tried it".
> [...]
> So most people half-ass it or think they're doing it right when in reality they're just preventing other people's recovery by spreading misinformation.


So, it is THE one solution. And if it doesn't work on some people it's because they didn't try hard enough, obviously, otherwise it would mean that sometimes you are wrong, which seems to be totally out of consideration. So if you are right, we are going to see many people in the forum get cured thanks to your advice in the next weeks or months. Which is great for them. And all the others that are going to remain will be those who don't try hard enough, or those who criticize without reading the books. All the lazy idiots like me basically.


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## leminaseri (Jul 1, 2020)

Trith said:


> And all the others that are going to remain will be those who don't try hard enough, or those who criticize without reading the books. All the lazy idiots like me basically.


did you ever consider that this might be true, without eventually getting offended by this? sorry, this is nothing against you and i dont mean you personally. but im sure a lot of people who comes to the internet and say „i have dpdr for 50 years“ might fit in this category you said about.


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## Peter (Jun 25, 2018)

coolwhip27 said:


> Wow, your stupid argument proves nothing besides your own ignorance. The mind can become damaged, and smoking weed can bring all that damage to the forefront and consequently break it (detachment).


I would call my argument applied ockham's razor. Isn't it more likely that cannabis causes depersonalization all by itself, independent from any bullying that might have happened previously? Especially considering that cannabis apparently can induce depersonalization disorder in people without pre-existing bullying?



Trith said:


> I think it is fair I answer to you in this mildly harsh way. You are basically saying that everybody here is a child that needs to grow up and an ignorant, and that you are here to deliver THE only one solution. Maybe some people like to be talked to that way, but personally this enters in conflict with my dignity.
> 
> [...]
> 
> So, it is THE one solution. And if it doesn't work on some people it's because they didn't try hard enough, obviously, otherwise it would mean that sometimes you are wrong, which seems to be totally out of consideration. So if you are right, we are going to see many people in the forum get cured thanks to your advice in the next weeks or months. Which is great for them. And all the others that are going to remain will be those who don't try hard enough, or those who criticize without reading the books. All the lazy idiots like me basically.


He is a typical recovery nazi, he ticks every box. People like him are the bane of the depersonalization community and one of the main reasons, why depersonalization disorder is ignored.



leminaseri said:


> did you ever consider that this might be true, without eventually getting offended by this? sorry, this is nothing against you and i dont mean you personally. but im sure a lot of people who comes to the internet and say „i have dpdr for 50 years“ might fit in this category you said about.


Always blaming the victim, right? And you cried out for having been bullied at school.


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## NoDevils (6 mo ago)

Abuse and cannabis use are both correlated with depersonalization. Cannabis is more directly correlated with depersonalization when it immediately and obviously triggers an episode.

Connecting nutrition to psychological health has been in vogue. It's hard to overstate the importance of eating healthily but we shouldn't fall into the trap of assuming everyone's mental troubles are the same. I'm astonished sleep quality and social-emotional health are on the fringes of popular mental health discussion but that's capitalism for you. Then there's the classic psychotherapeutic approach of what are your relationships like, what is your relationship with yourself like, etc. Eating healthily is a straightforward and effective way to be good to yourself.


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

leminaseri said:


> did you ever consider that this might be true, without eventually getting offended by this? sorry, this is nothing against you and i dont mean you personally. but im sure a lot of people who comes to the internet and say „i have dpdr for 50 years“ might fit in this category you said about.


I understand you are sincere. I believe DPDR is bad enough that everybody would try their best to get rid of it. I don't think anyone would have a problem with putting energy into recovery, just given how much DPDR can make us obsess about DPDR, but the main problem is to find in which direction to go. I think I'm quite ok with any advice from people who have recovered or not, as long as the arrogance is put the side and as long as it does not sound absurd. Every piece of information, even small, can be useful. But I have spent a lot of time running in every direction, thinking I had found the cure and spending all my energy in everything. So much so that I actually think it is kind of part of my disease. I don't think I have ever had a problem of hope or energy or options to try, but maybe one with compass. 
For me it's actually continuing this cycle of being deluded in every direction without enough skepticism that would be synonymous of hopelessness. If I try 100 things without a compass, I can always say maybe the solution was somewhere there but I missed it because I didn't try it fully because I was busy with the other 99 options. But I can say this about each of these 100 options and as you say I might still be there in 50 years with regrets. I believe more in using criticism and taking the time to find which options deserve time. Anyway, I don't think that saying "throw away what you are doing and now do this", is healthy or helpful, especially without giving real arguments, or good reasons other than "trust me bro", which to me seems to be his theme here.


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

Peter said:


> He is a typical recovery nazi, he ticks every box. People like him are the bane of the depersonalization community and one of the main reasons, why depersonalization disorder is ignored.


I totally approve of the term. (Edit: I'm removing the rest because I don't want to risk sidetracking even more and I should reduce my involvement in all this)


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## leminaseri (Jul 1, 2020)

Peter said:


> I would call my argument applied ockham's razor. Isn't it more likely that cannabis causes depersonalization all by itself, independent from any bullying that might have happened previously? Especially considering that cannabis apparently can induce depersonalization disorder in people without pre-existing bullying?


if we take YOUR „ockhams razor“ to account, everyone who got a schizophrenic father must become schizophrenic also…. which is…..not the case. so there need to happen psychological factors to trigger the psychotic episodes. so no. take the ockhams razor and go on.



Peter said:


> He is a typical recovery nazi, he ticks every box. People like him are the bane of the depersonalization community and one of the main reasons, why depersonalization disorder is ignored.


no. my effort to ignore this illness since january 2020 and despite doing everything (full time working in spite of everything. going to parties in spite of everything. doing all of my hobbies in spite of everything. even if it didnt make fun or joy. even if i was anhedonic.) contributed that i got A LOT better. i choosed for me since the first day or my relapse that i will live with this probably forever. i took a big decision and said „no it wont break me“ and i reached a lot of personal achievements. the latter in the end gave me the stressless environment why i could feel alleviating of my symptoms. im not cured or something and i dont claim to find any secret truths about this. but from my personal experience this helped me to first of all cope with the symptoms and second push them to the background so other positive aspects of life can take over.




Peter said:


> Always blaming the victim, right? And you cried out for having been bullied at school.


what did i say that you pull this conclusion? did i said to trith that he is weak or dumb or anything? no. did i offended anybody personally on my last post? no. did i ever offend people personally in the past? yes (unreal uk and lot of others). but do i admit that it was wrong and unkind from me? yes.

okay now, the last thing. we see wheelchairbounded people at the paralympics winning gold medals, and we see others who kills themselves because they think their life is over. so where is now exactly the victim blaming, if i say that it was a wrong thing that he killed himself, because life would be possible anyway? nowhere.


Trith said:


> I believe DPDR is bad enough that everybody would try their best to get rid of it. I don't think anyone would have a problem with putting energy into recovery, just given how much DPDR can make us obsess about DPDR, but the main problem is to find in which direction to go.


no. no no no no. i could give you so many instances where people dont give the smallest fuck about how bad their circumstances are and they still continue to choose the suffering. your analogy is completely wrong. you can talk about this with any philosopher on any topic in the history, they would say the same.


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

leminaseri said:


> no. no no no no. i could give you so many instances where people dont give the smallest fuck about how bad their circumstances are and they still continue to choose the suffering. your analogy is completely wrong. you can talk about this with any philosopher on any topic in the history, they would say the same.


I don't know, or perhaps it's just a different way of looking at the same problem. Perhaps you would say that they think they want to heal but their behavior shows that they don't because they don't do the right things. I would rather say that they want to heal, because they say so, and they do the wrong things because it's a problem of direction. In general my impression is that a good therapist would discuss rationally about directions and why this over that, and doesn't just push people or try to "motivate" them.
Anyway, in DPDR, the usualy problem is that we spend all our time thinking about it, and usually we think about getting rid of it, right?

Not everybody believes as you say. I think what I am saying here is in line with dialectic behavioral therapy, that puts emphasis on validation of the principle of the patterns (which is different from encouraging) and, then only, correction of patterns (e.g. fear is not a pointless weakness but is originally a useful protection mechanism that sometimes fails, suicidal ideation comes from a need of feeling better, and that energy can be appreciated and redirected toward therapy). It is also in line with some buddhist philosophies.


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## NoDevils (6 mo ago)

Trith said:


> I understand you are sincere. I believe DPDR is bad enough that everybody would try their best to get rid of it. I don't think anyone would have a problem with putting energy into recovery, just given how much DPDR can make us obsess about DPDR, but the main problem is to find in which direction to go. I think I'm quite ok with any advice from people who have recovered or not, as long as the arrogance is put the side and as long as it does not sound absurd. Every piece of information, even small, can be useful. But I have spent a lot of time running in every direction, thinking I had found the cure and spending all my energy in everything. So much so that I actually think it is kind of part of my disease. I don't think I have ever had a problem of hope or energy or options to try, but maybe one with compass.
> For me it's actually continuing this cycle of being deluded in every direction without enough skepticism that would be synonymous of hopelessness. If I try 100 things without a compass, I can always say maybe the solution was somewhere there but I missed it because I didn't try it fully because I was busy with the other 99 options. But I can say this about each of these 100 options and as you say I might still be there in 50 years with regrets. I believe more in using criticism and taking the time to find which options deserve time. Anyway, I don't think that saying "throw away what you are doing and now do this", is healthy or helpful, especially without giving real arguments, or good reasons other than "trust me bro", which to me seems to be his theme here.


What about just being depersonalized, acceptance? That's the easiest and most surefire option. I understand depersonalization can make social situations awkward. In extreme cases it can make driving dangerous. But so far you haven't been complaining about being disabled, rather you're complaining about not liking the feeling or experience of depersonalization. I can't say I enjoy having a weird brain but I've come to accept. Normal brains are also slightly overrated due to stigma against mental illness.


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## Peter (Jun 25, 2018)

leminaseri said:


> if we take YOUR „ockhams razor“ to account, everyone who got a schizophrenic father must become schizophrenic also…. which is…..not the case.


Yes. I think the chance for getting schizophrenia if one parent got it is only around 10%. One reason might be genetic, because the genes might not have been passed down by the father. However the chance is still not 100% if you have an identical twin with schizophrenia, it's "just" 50%. So there might be other factors at play that determine whether someone gets schizophrenia or not and these factors are necessarily not genetic, meaning they are related to the environment.



leminaseri said:


> so there need to happen psychological factors to trigger the psychotic episodes. so no. take the ockhams razor and go on.


However you make a mistake a this point, by believing that psychological or psychosocial factors are the only environmental factors that might affect the chance for getting schizophrenia. For example biological factors like pollution, infections and nutritional deficencies during early life might play a role, too. See also: The environment and susceptibility to schizophrenia - PMC (nih.gov)



> no. my effort to ignore this illness since january 2020 and despite doing everything (full time working in spite of everything. going to parties in spite of everything. doing all of my hobbies in spite of everything. even if it didnt make fun or joy. even if i was anhedonic.) contributed that i got A LOT better. i choosed for me since the first day or my relapse that i will live with this probably forever. i took a big decision and said „no it wont break me“ and i reached a lot of personal achievements. the latter in the end gave me the stressless environment why i could feel alleviating of my symptoms. im not cured or something and i dont claim to find any secret truths about this. but from my personal experience this helped me to first of all cope with the symptoms and second push them to the background so other positive aspects of life can take over.


I tried this as well on a more limited scale, but since none of my symptoms changed even a tiny bit, I came to the conclusion, that any attempt to live a "normal life", even if successful, would just amount to living a lie. Life without feelings and especially with anhedonia and without real motivation is just nothing, it's all going through motion, an endless chore. Personal achievements are only of very limited value if you cannot enjoy them. It's like money: Only worth something, if you can spend it. Add to this that due to lack of motivation you need to put much more effort into everything and normal life won't hold much attraction.

I still see your point, but I interpret it differently. You may have convinced yourself to not let depersonalization break you, but you also gave up the dream of a real normal life. In a way the depersonalization won...



leminaseri said:


> okay now, the last thing. we see wheelchairbounded people at the paralympics winning gold medals, and we see others who kills themselves because they think their life is over. so where is now exactly the victim blaming, if i say that it was a wrong thing that he killed himself, because life would be possible anyway? nowhere.


People at the paralympics are a very selective subset of all people with disability, who obviously cannot serve as a representative of all people with disability. In a huge set of people subjected to highly adversive conditions you will always find a small subset of people who will thrive nonetheless. One reason might be that they have other strengths that help them to be more resilient in the face of disability. Think for example about Stephan Hawking. He was paralyzed, but also a genius, which allowed him to be professor at Cambridge. But what if he would not have been a genius? Then he probably would have spent the remainder of his life in a nursing home... or killed himself.

Personally after witnessing on the internet the stories of many horrible medical conditions that do not lead to death, but into a remainder of a life consisting of decades of endless torment, into a literal fate worse than death, it's hard for me to believe, that there are people, who still deny that suicide can be a solution for intractable medical problems. I agree that people should not be pressured against their own will into suicide, but claiming that it was "wrong" would account to a minimization of a huge range of severe mental and physical disorders.



Trith said:


> I understand you are sincere. I believe DPDR is bad enough that everybody would try their best to get rid of it. I don't think anyone would have a problem with putting energy into recovery, just given how much DPDR can make us obsess about DPDR, but the main problem is to find in which direction to go. I think I'm quite ok with any advice from people who have recovered or not, as long as the arrogance is put the side and as long as it does not sound absurd. Every piece of information, even small, can be useful. But I have spent a lot of time running in every direction, thinking I had found the cure and spending all my energy in everything. So much so that I actually think it is kind of part of my disease. I don't think I have ever had a problem of hope or energy or options to try, but maybe one with compass.
> For me it's actually continuing this cycle of being deluded in every direction without enough skepticism that would be synonymous of hopelessness. If I try 100 things without a compass, I can always say maybe the solution was somewhere there but I missed it because I didn't try it fully because I was busy with the other 99 options. But I can say this about each of these 100 options and as you say I might still be there in 50 years with regrets. I believe more in using criticism and taking the time to find which options deserve time. Anyway, I don't think that saying "throw away what you are doing and now do this", is healthy or helpful, especially without giving real arguments, or good reasons other than "trust me bro", which to me seems to be his theme here.


In my opinion the core error that people commit is to search for a solution by looking inward instead of looking at external sources causing the problem, of which the main one is psychiatrists ignoring depersonalization. Recovery nazis leech off this tendency and promote it. For example did you ever notice how many of them tell people to avoid depersonalization forums? It's to prevent sufferers from organizing themselves.



> Anyway, in DPDR, the usualy problem is that we spend all our time thinking about it, and usually we think about getting rid of it, right?


As I said, the problem isn't the thinking itself, but the fact that it's not channeled into the right direction. It should not be "What can we change in our life, to get cured?", but rather "What could we do against psychiatry, to make them take depersonalization seriously?".



> Normal brains are also slightly overrated due to stigma against mental illness.


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## NoDevils (6 mo ago)

Peter said:


> Yes. I think the chance for getting schizophrenia if one parent got it is only around 10%. One reason might be genetic, because the genes might not have been passed down by the father. However the chance is still not 100% if you have an identical twin with schizophrenia, it's "just" 50%. So there might be other factors at play that determine whether someone gets schizophrenia or not and these factors are necessarily not genetic, meaning they are related to the environment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're a paranoid asshole and I'm tired of your passive aggression and incessant toxicity. I hope you do at least something in your life other than shit on people on a forum that is supposed to be for support. If people want to commiserate about their symptoms that's all well and good but what you're doing is something else entirely. People with your hostile and doomer attitude make the Internet a cess. The only person responsible for yourself is you. Psychiatrists are not withholding some special treatment that will cure you of mental illness and you know it. They're also not concerted against you to make your life bad. I made an account here to counter 1.) disinformation and 2.) people like you who are here to tell sufferers they're stupid and not going to get better. Plenty of sufferers get better so stop projecting.


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## NoDevils (6 mo ago)

Also, you seem to think you're uncovering dark mysteries and conspiracies because you noticed psychiatrists are dismissive of depersonalization. They're dismissive of it because there's no proven pharmacological treatments, unless you count treating comorbid disorders and referring patients to talk therapy. Widespread awareness of this disorder seems to be fairly new. It's good suffers are making noise and engaging in activism in the world. Someone tell me if I'm wrong but I don't think the psychiatrists we see in hospitals or private practices are on the cutting edge of research into new medications. Nobody here is a "recovery Nazi" who doesn't want there to be more depersonalization research clinics, funding for existing clinics, and research into new compounds that might be used as psychiatric medications. Every patient and practitioner wants that except for a few outliers.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

Trith said:


> But please do walk the dogs with me. If through education, my parents teach me the fear of Hispanic people, for example, because they are racist. Would you consider this natural/healthy anxiety? And if my parents teach me to be afraid to swim in a beach that actually has lots of sharks, would you consider this natural/healthy anxiety?
> 
> Just to make sure, I totally understand that deficiencies can make someone more prone to anxiety or make anxiety stronger, and that magnesium can help reduce anxiety in some cases and to a certain extent. But that's not what you are saying. You are saying that "unhealthy" anxiety is always cured by taking magnesium, or that magnesium deficiency is the only one cause of unhealthy anxiety. I think we are slowly drifting from "Magnesium is the only one cure to anxiety", to "magnesium is the only solution to anxiety, but only if that anxiety is caused by magnesium deficiency, otherwise the solution is something else". Which is very different and kind of obvious.
> 
> ...


Hello again Trith,

I think it would help me to respond more thoroughly to your questions if you didn't make them so obtuse. To answer your hispanic/sharks question: There are three forms of anxiety in my opinion in terms of how they are solved. You have 1. Healthy anxiety (anxiety that keeps you from putting yourself in harms way) 2. Unhealthy anxiety caused by a physical scenario (a learned fear of hispanic people or a bully) 3. Unhealthy anxiety with "no apparent cause" aka anxiety disorders (which I propose as being caused by magnesium/potassium issues and/or adrenal issues). It's that simple. 

As far as my "incriminating" older posts from 4-10 years ago are concerned I had trouble with responding angrily to criticism. I have since worked on that. Anger doesn't make a truth less true but it does cause people to stop listening to reason so i've since worked on it. 

I understand I can say things in a stand-offish way when dealing with criticism and you have the right to dislike that. But I am not living my life for your approval of the way I say things. I talk like this to everyone partly because im still working on my tone and partly because ignorance annoys me. Facts are what help in mental health. Not ignorance.


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## NoDevils (6 mo ago)

Tres said:


> Hello again Trith,
> 
> I think it would help me to respond more thoroughly to your questions if you didn't make them so obtuse. To answer your hispanic/sharks question: There are three forms of anxiety in my opinion in terms of how they are solved. You have 1. Healthy anxiety (anxiety that keeps you from putting yourself in harms way) 2. Unhealthy anxiety caused by a physical scenario (a learned fear of hispanic people or a bully) 3. Unhealthy anxiety with "no apparent cause" aka anxiety disorders (which I propose as being caused by magnesium/potassium issues and/or adrenal issues). It's that simple.
> 
> ...


You're putting forward an idea that all endogenous anxiety is due to nutritional deficiencies or "adrenal issues" and Trith doesn't agree.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

Also, 

I honestly lost track of the conversation with all these little "side arguments". So I apologize for not reading the last like 5-8 posts but I assumed they didn't have much to do with the main topic. However, if I missed something that you wanted me to discuss please let me know. 

I think there is some confusion here. I am advocating for an overall healthy diet, a personalized supplement regimen, and once you have done that consistently enough for the dissociation to lessen or even entirely dissipate to then deal with any lifestyle/environmental factors followed by therapy. 

I am not gatekeeping the solution by saying my answer is correct. I am saying EVERYONE on here is correct but they're breaking the solution apart into what works for them. The solution is to address the diet, nutrients, lifestyle/environment, AND trauma. The answer is generally taking care of yourself for long enough that the feeling stops. Then to ensure that you dont get it again, continue being healthy, avoid dissociative drugs, and then practice responding to stress in a healthier way.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

NoDevils said:


> You're putting forward an idea that all endogenous anxiety is due to nutritional deficiencies or "adrenal issues" and Trith doesn't agree.


Hello NoDevils,

Oh, I must've misunderstood them then. Well it's their right to disagree. I know it to be a fact based on studying the biology but if they have a better theory im all ears.


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## NoDevils (6 mo ago)

Tres said:


> Hello NoDevils,
> 
> Oh, I must've misunderstood them then. Well it's their right to disagree. I know it to be a fact based on studying the biology but if they have a better theory im all ears.


It's most likely endogenous mental disorders are caused by a variety of problems. Nutrition could be a contributing factor. If schizophrenia for example was caused by one "bad" gene or one missing nutrient that would perhaps be nice and make life a lot easier for millions of people.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

Hello Everyone,

Actually, I thought about it and I get why this conversation is triggering me. 11 years ago I developed dpd/drd and two years ago I finally resolved it, but I was SO terrified 11 years ago. I thought I had schizophrenia. I thought I wouldn't feel real ever again. And I desperately scoured the internet for just ONE person who had taken the time to look at the facts, fix themselves, and explain what mechanism was wrong with me. So two years after figuring all of this out myself by putting in the years of time and using myself as a human guinea pig I decided to turn around despite never wanting to see this site again just to provide what I never got. 
And now here I am defending my tone. I mean...if you disagree just say that and move on. I'm trying to convince you for your sake, not mine. But I think you've given up and got so used to poking holes. Unfortunately, there are no holes to poke in this which is why you've moved on to trying to discredit me as a person. I did the research. The actual research. It's clear as day. It's why the solutions are all different.

It would be a genuine tragedy if you didn't get better all because you were too busy thinking of a rebuttal to take the time to hear me.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

NoDevils said:


> It's most likely endogenous mental disorders are caused by a variety of problems. Nutrition could be a contributing factor. If schizophrenia for example was caused by one "bad" gene or one missing nutrient that would perhaps be nice and make life a lot easier for millions of people.


Hello NoDevils,

So, one thing that I find very important to say is that just because the solution is dietary/nutritional does not mean that I think the problem is a deficiency. Just as a doctor who prescribes medicine does not consider the problem to be a medicine deficiency. The human body is a biological machine with only so many components. I am saying these people have a neurotransmitter issue because their body has an imbalance. The cause of the imbalance could be emotional, due to a disorder, or caused by poor diet/nutrition but the answer is the same. 

Doctors use these same solutions but manipulate these neurotransmitters using medicine. I am talking about the same tactics using a different (more biologically compatible) weapon.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)




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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)




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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

Hello Everyone,

So for anyone that hasn't been turned off by how I have presented the information here are my resource books for helping clients with mental health issues. I would highly recommend the last two: "Prescription for Dietary Wellness" and "The Science of Nutrition" as well as "Natural Highs".


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## NoDevils (6 mo ago)

Tres said:


> Hello NoDevils,
> 
> So, one thing that I find very important to say is that just because the solution is dietary/nutritional does not mean that I think the problem is a deficiency. Just as a doctor who prescribes medicine does not consider the problem to be a medicine deficiency. The human body is a biological machine with only so many components. I am saying these people have a neurotransmitter issue because their body has an imbalance. The cause of the imbalance could be emotional, due to a disorder, or caused by poor diet/nutrition but the answer is the same.
> 
> Doctors use these same solutions but manipulate these neurotransmitters using medicine. I am talking about the same tactics using a different (more biologically compatible) weapon.


Ah. You're talking about nutritional psychiatry. I don't know much about it but many health practitioners are endorsing it. The emphasis has largely been on reducing inflammation and promoting a healthy gut microbiome. This is also an issue of social inequities because cheap foods tend to cause more inflammation. That being said, most people stand to make healthier choices, especially low income people and minors.









Nutritional psychiatry: Your brain on food - Harvard Health


...




www.health.harvard.edu





Low FODMAP foods don't necessarily seem expensive. This article has good things to say.









Try a FODMAPs diet to manage irritable bowel syndrome - Harvard Health


...




www.health.harvard.edu





All alternative fields have a plethora of bogus claims but the idea that a person can make themselves happier and more functional by eating better sounds reasonable.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

Hello NoDevils,

Exactly! Nutritional psychiatry. Im familiar with the term but just forget to use it because it's new to me as a term. Yeah, microbiome, neuroinflammation, neurogensis, and neuroplasticity. All that stuff. 

I can say it's definitely possible to make cheap dietary changes that are beneficial however to fully immerse yourself can be a little more expensive and a lot more time consuming. 

The easiest and cheapest beneficial changes are eating the correct amount of protein for your body weight, only eating whole grain bread/pasta and wild rice/quinoa, and eating homemade meals instead of packaged food as often as possible. 

That book I referenced earlier is an AMAZING resource because this man took brain scans of people's blood flow before and after and there is physical betterment as a result of reducing neuroinflammation and supplementation/diet.


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## Peter (Jun 25, 2018)

NoDevils said:


> You're a paranoid asshole


...and you don't have arguments.



NoDevils said:


> and I'm tired of your passive aggression and incessant toxicity.


The word "toxic" is meant to describe certain types of substances, not people. By using the word "toxic" on people, you are dehumanizing them.



NoDevils said:


> I hope you do at least something in your life other than shit on people on a forum that is supposed to be for support. If people want to commiserate about their symptoms that's all well and good but what you're doing is something else entirely. People with your hostile and doomer attitude make the Internet a cess.


Nobody forces you to go into the internet or on forums. There are lots of forums and Facebook groups, where only "positive" posts are permitted, many of them run by recovery nazis, where you can enjoy a place devoid of criticism and freedom of speech. Maybe they better suit your needs than this forum.



NoDevils said:


> The only person responsible for yourself is you. Psychiatrists are not withholding some special treatment that will cure you of mental illness and you know it.


The act of not giving depersonalization disorder the attention it deserves leads to research yielding new treatments not being conducted, which is equal to withholding treatments (of the future) from sufferers. In addition even existing treatments are often very hard to get for sufferers. I have read many reports of people outside the United States who really had problems obtaining treatments like lamotrigine and naltrexone. In Germany a shady psychosomatic even made a guideline for depersonalization disorder, where lamotrigine and naltrexone where effectively denied, while the psychotherapeutic treatment he put into place as first-line therapy lacks empirical and theoretical support.



NoDevils said:


> They're also not concerted against you to make your life bad.


Can you even exclude this possibility after all that happened in chronic fatigue syndrome?



NoDevils said:


> I made an account here to counter 1.) disinformation and 2.) people like you who are here to tell sufferers they're stupid and not going to get better.


Which you do by calling people toxic, assholes, paranoid... not very convincing. 



NoDevils said:


> Plenty of sufferers get better so stop projecting.


Do you even know what projecting is?



> Also, you seem to think you're uncovering dark mysteries and conspiracies because you noticed psychiatrists are dismissive of depersonalization.


Sounds like a baseless claim intended to paint me as some kind of conpiracy theorist.



NoDevils said:


> They're dismissive of it because there's no proven pharmacological treatments, unless you count treating comorbid disorders and referring patients to talk therapy.


Modern psychiatry started in the 1800s. Medication for mental disorders did not really happen until around the 1940s, although opioids and barbiturates were in some places somewhat in use before that, but not really systematically. How do you explain that most mental disorders were already known and attempted to be treated, although none had a pre-existing pharmacological treatment?



NoDevils said:


> Widespread awareness of this disorder seems to be fairly new. It's good suffers are making noise and engaging in activism in the world.


I do not see any signs that there is much more awareness of the disorder than there was 20 years ago. People are also not really making noise or engaging in activism. There is just Unreal UK, but it's not really doing that much. And don't talk about IDS, which was basically dead on arrival.



NoDevils said:


> Someone tell me if I'm wrong but I don't think the psychiatrists we see in hospitals or private practices are on the cutting edge of research into new medications.


At least concerning depersonalization this is correct, since *there is almost no research on depersonalization disorder*.



NoDevils said:


> Every patient and practitioner wants that except for a few outliers.


Except Harris Harrington, Shaun O' Connor, Swamy G, Jordan Hardgraves, ...


----------



## NoDevils (6 mo ago)

Tres said:


> Hello NoDevils,
> 
> Exactly! Nutritional psychiatry. Im familiar with the term but just forget to use it because it's new to me as a term. Yeah, microbiome, neuroinflammation, neurogensis, and neuroplasticity. All that stuff.
> 
> ...


I wasn't getting adequate protein because I was poor and had a neglectful family. I was physically weak and tired all the time until I made the decision to intentionally consume recommended levels of protein. Being able to receive food stamps while attending college has also been helpful. My body composition has changed for the better and my appetite is more consistent. When I don't consume adequate protein and fat I feel tired and bad.

I'm not a huge fan of bread/pasta but I agree whole grain is preferable and better for satiety. The brown rice and quinoa are where it's at. I've heard good things about whole cut oats, not those instant packet shits. I used to eat about 700 calories of quinoa and brown rice in the morning. I had stable energy and satiety for like nine hours. That's how food is supposed to make you feel.

This desire for satiety and wellbeing is part of the push for the carnivore diet but it's important to emphasize there are plant based ways to be healthy too if intelligent choices are made. I eat plants and meat, for the record.

I was listening to a podcast which mentioned it's important not to have an ethno-centric approach like "Medetteranialn" and instead focus on acquiring the specific nutrients, like you said about adequate protein.


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## NoDevils (6 mo ago)

Peter said:


> ...and you don't have arguments.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll ignore the asinine beginning of your post and address the latter half. My purpose is not to convince you personally of anything when you're being stubborn as a brick wall.

It makes sense that naltrexone wouldn't be widely approved because it wasn't proven very much to be effective. In a small trial we could get improvement with sugar pills. The fact of the matter is both patients and psychiatrists would benefit from having a pharmacological solution to depersonalization, so there's no conspiracy to suppress treatment of the disorder.

There has been research into depersonalization treatment and it hasn't been stellar compared to more generalist treatment. If you think the depersonalized community is suffering from a political or funding issue then go make a change in the world instead of trolling people who mostly agree with you online. Go confront the psychiatric associations or make noise about how there needs to be more funding for psychopharmacology. I'm sorry the world isn't perfect, man.


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## Phantasm (Jul 16, 2017)

Peter, you need to get a life, and that's saying something coming from me. It's incredible the amount of toxic self-important spew you've managed to write in under two hours.


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## coolwhip27 (Mar 14, 2015)

Peter said:


> I would call my argument applied ockham's razor. Isn't it more likely that cannabis causes depersonalization all by itself, independent from any bullying that might have happened previously? Especially considering that cannabis apparently can induce depersonalization disorder in people without pre-existing bullying?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can call your argument any fancy name you want. You’re _wrong_. But you’re a troll and I can tell. Bullying doesnt have to be the only possible benefactor to having a damaged brain. So why are you comparing just bullying and weed, rather than mind trauma and weed. It’s BOTH. Wake the fuck up. Not only are you spewing stupid but you’re also using your stupidness to invalidate others trauma.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

NoDevils said:


> I wasn't getting adequate protein because I was poor and had a neglectful family. I was physically weak and tired all the time until I made the decision to intentionally consume recommended levels of protein. Being able to receive food stamps while attending college has also been helpful. My body composition has changed for the better and my appetite is more consistent. When I don't consume adequate protein and fat I feel tired and bad.
> 
> I'm not a huge fan of bread/pasta but I agree whole grain is preferable and better for satiety. The brown rice and quinoa are where it's at. I've heard good things about whole cut oats, not those instant packet shits. I used to eat about 700 calories of quinoa and brown rice in the morning. I had stable energy and satiety for like nine hours. That's how food is supposed to make you feel.
> 
> ...


Hello NoDevils,

Have you tried a whole food multi? If you are trying that much and still depersonalized then a whole food multi would be all you're missing to activate the amino acids and turn them into the proper neurotransmitters


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## NoDevils (6 mo ago)

Tres said:


> Hello NoDevils,
> 
> Have you tried a whole food multi? If you are trying that much and still depersonalized then a whole food multi would be all you're missing to activate the amino acids and turn them into the proper neurotransmitters


My diet has backslid for various reasons mostly involving time and money but I remain focused on diet.

My current experience with depersonalization isn't so bad. The first year or two was remarkably bad. Based on what I see around me I'm above average at functioning with anxiety. I've come a long way because I used to consume mental health resources like crazy and always be in new, absurd situations. When you have anxiety for decades there's no choice but to sink or swim. There's also some funniness like how does one know if they've gotten rid of persistent, low level depersonalization or just gotten used to it? Considering all the problems of this world I'm simply happy to be alive and making progress in my pursuits.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

NoDevils said:


> My diet has backslid for various reasons mostly involving time and money but I remain focused on diet.
> 
> My current experience with depersonalization isn't so bad. The first year or two was remarkably bad. Based on what I see around me I'm above average at functioning with anxiety. I've come a long way because I used to consume mental health resources like crazy and always be in new, absurd situations. When you have anxiety for decades there's no choice but to sink or swim. There's also some funniness like how does one know if they've gotten rid of persistent, low level depersonalization or just gotten used to it? Considering all the problems of this world I'm simply happy to be alive and making progress in my pursuits.


Hello NoDevils,

Sorry, ive been drinking before answering this question and the last few. Based on your response i'd say you're basically out. Once you start questioning it's about stress and coping


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## NoDevils (6 mo ago)

Tres said:


> Hello NoDevils,
> 
> Sorry, ive been drinking before answering this question and the last few. Based on your response i'd say you're basically out. Once you start questioning it's about stress and coping


No problem. "Once you start questioning it's about stress and coping"?


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

Hello NoDevils, 

Yeah I didn't realize how controversial that statement was. What ai was saying is that you personally are at the point of stress and coping


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

NoDevils said:


> What about just being depersonalized, acceptance? That's the easiest and most surefire option. I understand depersonalization can make social situations awkward. In extreme cases it can make driving dangerous. But so far you haven't been complaining about being disabled, rather you're complaining about not liking the feeling or experience of depersonalization. I can't say I enjoy having a weird brain but I've come to accept. Normal brains are also slightly overrated due to stigma against mental illness.


Yes, I was about to say that. In general I have accepted having a weird brain too, and that does bring relief. But I do agree that self improvement is almost always on my mind, even if not always about DPDR.
Acceptance of all this is a very big objective that might require even more complicated strategies for people like me, and perhaps it is hard to define as well. But as far as recovery obsessions are concerned, I thought one thing I could try could be to just commit to taking a break from trying to recover from anything in my mind and daily life for a defined duration just to see if it helps, and it might, and then maybe renew it.


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## coolwhip27 (Mar 14, 2015)

Trith said:


> Yes, I was about to say that. In general I have accepted having a weird brain too, and that does bring relief. But I do agree that self improvement is almost always on my mind, even if not always about DPDR.
> Acceptance of all this is a very big objective that might require even more complicated strategies for people like me, and perhaps it is hard to define as well. But as far as recovery obsessions are concerned, I thought one thing I could try could be to just commit to taking a break from trying to recover from anything in my mind and daily life for a defined duration just to see if it helps, and it might, and then maybe renew it.


You should. Doing that is literally putting aside the same thing that drives dpdr. Because having both dp and the obsession with recovering from it only logically must be linked together, since everything your thinking about and who you are cannot really be separated. It’s so paradoxical, to accept yourself without doing it for the sake of changing. Because at the same time, once you do accept, you’re free! Or should I say, once you are in a state of acceptance.


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## Peter (Jun 25, 2018)

NoDevils said:


> I'll ignore the asinine beginning of your post and address the latter half. My purpose is not to convince you personally of anything when you're being stubborn as a brick wall.


If you do not have any convincing arguments, you should not attempt to hide your inaptitude by blaming, or to use your term, projecting, it on others.



NoDevils said:


> It makes sense that naltrexone wouldn't be widely approved because it wasn't proven very much to be effective.


It's still one of the few drugs with some evidence behind it. So why shouldn't it be used? After all psychotherapy is propagated although it has far less evidence.



NoDevils said:


> The fact of the matter is both patients and psychiatrists would benefit from having a pharmacological solution to depersonalization, so there's no conspiracy to suppress treatment of the disorder.


In his guideline Matthias Michal discourages the use of lamotrigine and naltrexone. The effect of this is that health insurance will not cover off-label treatments with lamotrigine and naltrexone for depersonalization disorder. Wouldn't you agree that this is an obstacle for sufferers seeking pharmacological treatment for depersonalization disorder at least in Germany?

At the same time his intended first-line treatment is psychodynamic longterm-psychotherapy, although there is almost zero evidence that it works for depersonalization disorder (and much of anything else) and no theoretical reason to believe that it does.

In a recent book he even said "Drug treatment for depersonalization disorder currently does not exist". Considering that there is at least some evidence for drug treatments and none for psychotherapy, wouldn't you agree that he is outright lying and attempting to suppress pharmacological treatments for depersonalization disorder?

In my opinion the situation shows some parallels to chronic fatigue syndrome, where even you cannot deny, that psychiatrists took every measure into their hand in order to prevent sufferers from getting a treatment that works and instead pushed their own non-effective and even harmful psychotherapeutic treatments for their own gain.

So, as I pointed out, at least in Germany there is a "conspiracy" of sorts going on with the intention of denying sufferers pharmacological treatments in order to make cash with (likely) useless psychotherapy. Of course this isn't the main reason why the situation for people with depersonalization is the way it is. It is still a fairly new development and most of the situation can still be explained using Hanlon's razor ("Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity ").

But as I see it, the current condition is evolving, but into the direction of malice. I already gave this example in another thread: In the book 7 Shrinks: 60 Years in an Undiagnosed Altered State the author spent more than *half a million dollars* for the treatment of her depersonalization disorder without any treatment improving her symptoms. This is an extreme example, but it shows how much money can be made with depersonalization *even without actually treating it*. And just like recovery nazis did, there are some immoral professionals discovering depersonalization disorder for their own gain.



NoDevils said:


> There has been research into depersonalization treatment and it hasn't been stellar compared to more generalist treatment.


This is quite an understatement when looking at objective numbers.

For example in the year 2022 there were according to Pubmed 4397 publications with the terms "schizophrenia" or "psychosis" in the title. In comparison there were *just 22 publications* with "depersonalization" or "depersonalisation" in the title. At least according to this measure there was about a 200-fold more research activity on schizophrenia.



NoDevils said:


> f you think the depersonalized community is suffering from a political or funding issue then go make a change in the world instead of trolling people who mostly agree with you online.


I'm not trolling anyone. You are just not able or willing to deal with opinions contrary to your own and blaming others for it.



coolwhip27 said:


> You can call your argument any fancy name you want. You’re _wrong_. But you’re a troll and I can tell. Bullying doesnt have to be the only possible benefactor to having a damaged brain. So why are you comparing just bullying and weed, rather than mind trauma and weed. It’s BOTH. Wake the fuck up. Not only are you spewing stupid but you’re also using your stupidness to invalidate others trauma.


Whether you call it bullying or more generally trauma doesn't change anything about the argument. Even if we consider that cannabis-induced depersonalization disorder only strikes at already "damaged brains", then how do you know the damage is coming from trauma or other psychosocial stressors? What about genetic factors? Or other environmental factors as I pointed out above in regards to schizophrenia?

And if we consider that cannabis was the sole offender, wouldn't you invalidate the role of cannabis, which in turn could promote more people taking it and turn more of them getting depersonalization? Aren't you invalidating people who did not experience trauma earlier in life, but still got depersonalization disorder from Cannabis? Then why do you think you have a right not to be invalidated, while they do not?


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## NoDevils (6 mo ago)

Peter said:


> If you do not have any convincing arguments, you should not attempt to hide your inaptitude by blaming, or to use your term, projecting, it on others.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're the one who's inept if you think five to ten patients reporting improvement in a study that wasn't official and double blind is evidence. Your narcissism seems to prevent you from learning or realizing anything. You're actually writing too much for me to read considering the vitriolic attitude and low quality of your replies. I'm wondering you can have a single thought on this matter that isn't paranoid, an insult, or overestimating your own competence. Even a mod has come out to say you're behaving like an asshole and need to get a life. I'm here to tell you that you don't know what the hell you're talking about. You've stolen a thread about nutritional psychiatry to pick a hopeless fight with multiple people and accuse us of being in a conspiracy with Harris Harrington. You're the one behaving like a nazi.


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## Peter (Jun 25, 2018)

NoDevils said:


> You're the one who's inept if you think five to ten patients reporting improvement in a study that wasn't official and double blind is evidence.


What is an "official" study? And why do you think that everything below being double-blind is not evidence? At least the medical community thinks otherwise, since it differentiates between various levels of evidence: Hierarchy of evidence. In clinical practice the level of evidence for the treatment, the risks, the effects of the disorder and alternatives are determinants for prescribing an off-label treatment. Risks for naltrexone are low, there are no alternatives in many cases and there is no point in waiting for a better study to show up, because this will probably take decades. Under these conditions the risk-benefit-ratio seems to be on the side of the treatment. For example assuming that 5 of 10 people benefited in the study and making the very conservative estimation that it only truly worked in 1 of 10, treating 10 people with naltrexone would save one person from a fate worse than death, while the other 9 would not be worse than before, but just possibly experience a few weeks of discomfort from the side-effects of naltrexone.

Apart from that psychotherapy studies can in almost all cases not be conducted in a double-blind way. By your logic it would be impossible to gain "evidence" for psychotherapy.



NoDevils said:


> Your narcissism seems to prevent you from learning or realizing anything.


That's today's discussion culture for some people, when they disagree with another person. First they call them "toxic". Then they use the trendy word "narcissistic".



NoDevils said:


> You're actually writing too much for me to read considering the vitriolic attitude and low quality of your replies.


My posts still seem to be really triggering (to use a trendy word myself) you, right?



NoDevils said:


> I'm wondering you can have a single thought on this matter that isn't paranoid, an insult, or overestimating your own competence.


I think the crown of insulters on this thread clearly belongs to you. Moreover I do not see where I overestimated my "competence", since you haven't been good at pointing out anything in this regard.

It's also somewhat striking how you are taking a pathologizing and diagnozing position towards my opinions. First paranoid, then narcissism.



NoDevils said:


> Even a mod has come out to say you're behaving like an asshole and need to get a life.


Which amounts to nothing more than argumentum ad verecundiam on your behalf. Moreover your posts contained a much higher number of insults, so they must be objectively more "assholish" than mine. It seems you do not like my opinion and that I'm willing and free to express it, so you want to get rid of me and the sentence "get a life" hides your true intention in a played caring attitude, as if it was better for me to keep my mouth shut, which in reality it isn't.



NoDevils said:


> I'm here to tell you that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.


Which isn't very convincing without giving compelling reasons.



NoDevils said:


> You've stolen a thread about nutritional psychiatry to pick a hopeless fight with multiple people and accuse us of being in a conspiracy with Harris Harrington.


So, that's my career on this thread. Toxic, paranoid, narcissistic and now a thief.

Stealing means: There is an object. You have it, I do not. I do something. Then you do not have it anymore, but I do. But the matter of fact is that the thread and it's contents have been fully accessible for both of us and anybody else on this forum and nothing I did changed anything about this. So "stealing" can't apply here.

Could you also point me to the post, where I accused you or anyone else of a "conspiracy" with "Harris Harrington"?



NoDevils said:


> You're the one behaving like a nazi.


Why?


----------



## NoDevils (6 mo ago)

Peter said:


> Why?


Because you're a deluded, dysfunctional, and not a very good dude. You stay up until the wee hours of the morning slinging garbage at people who mostly agree with you, crying about naltrexone and how society is concerting its effort to keep this magical cure from you. We're also monopolizing someone else's thread. Come to the United States and you can get your naltrexone. You'll also learn a few lessons about courtesy and personal responsibility. I'm not sure about the market in Germany. Can you buy naltrexone if you have income? By asking you this question or proposing a solution I'm feeding into the nonsense that it's a magical cure.

It's true we need more funding for psychopharma research and depersonalization is a neglected syndrome. Everyone here should be able to acknowledge that.


----------



## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

Hello NoDevils and Peter, 

I skipped the argument but I heard "naltrexone". This was actually something I had really wanted to try but never really put forth the effort to get. It seems like a decent chemical solution as well. The idea in my head being that if dpd/drd is a protective mechanism against trauma that by introducing a medicine which blocks therapeutic chemicals that you would be chemically forced to face the trauma and bad feelings rather than dissociate. I mean, I don't know factually but it seems like it would be worth a try for someone who doesn't want to put in all the work to fix it "properly". 

Anyways, this comment section is littered with all the same sludge as the other posts i've come across and it's really disheartening. This is supposed to be a space to compare notes and resolve a horrific disorder that we've all had to/have to face...and instead due to ego it all ends up the same. I mean, are you capable of self-actualizing and realizing that this is damaging and probably the reason some people don't access the help they desperately need? The answers and theories are buried under miles of word vomit.


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## NoDevils (6 mo ago)

Rescinded this post because I got naltrexone and lamotrigine mixed up.


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## Peter (Jun 25, 2018)

NoDevils said:


> Because you're a deluded, dysfunctional, and not a very good dude.


So the list of your diagnoses based on my posts on a forum gets longer and longer. Toxic (whatever that means), paranoid, narcissistic and now delusional and dysfunctional. The latter is even correct, but that's a trait I'm sharing with most people with severe mental illness, including the majority of this forum. The term "not a very good dude" is more problematic, because it's an entirely subjective value judgement.



NoDevils said:


> You stay up until the wee hours of the morning slinging garbage at people who mostly agree with you


I possibly have a sleep disorder, that still has to be determined, for which I'm getting a sleep study in a few months. Thanks for your understanding.

If my posts are garbage in your opinion and all people agree with my opinion, how is this consistent with my posts being "garbage"? Wouldn't this mean that the people are stupid, since they agree to "garbage"? Aren't you doing at this point what you accused me of, claiming people on this forum to be stupid?



NoDevils said:


> crying about naltrexone


I would hardly call this "crying".



NoDevils said:


> how society is concerting its effort to keep this magical cure from you.


Here I think opposing views are at play that I already alluded to. Many people with depersonalization disorder believe that recovery comes from altering something internal in themselves, almost like in some kind of religion that repentance in the form of "acceptance" or "living a normal life" takes you to heaven. Recovery nazis exploit this tendency by selling some kind of roadmap. In my opinion there is no reason to condone this ideology. There is neither evidence nor a plausible reason to believe that you could recover from depersonalization disorder by "accepting it away". In my opinion this ideology is a belief in a "magical cure".

I came to the view that the "road to recovery" is outside of us, just like for most medical problems. Attention and research are the way to go and in order to make them happen, sufferers need to put pressure on society in order for depersonalization disorder to be taken seriously. Calling this "road to recovery" is probably a bit of an overstatement, because it's not very secure, whether it will be successful to influence society in a desirable way and whether it works out in your own lifetime, but it could still help others, which would still amount to something better than nothing, since personally I don't want anyone to have to spent his life with depersonalization disorder or any other mental disorder causing anhedonia or emotional numbness. What I propose is in fact the opposite of a "magical cure". It's not magical, since it's actually plausible that it could work and there is a high chance, that for many it's not a cure. It may push the cure backwards in time, but possibly still too late.

I also still think that we cannot acquit society taking an active role in keeping treatments away from sufferers. Michal is a professor, so in Germany he is likely a state official. So Michal acts in the name of the society, which appointed him and pays him for his actions to wirthhold pharmacological treatments from sufferers. These are not a "magical cure", but for the lucky people who respond to them, they can be a life savior.



NoDevils said:


> You'll also learn a few lessons about courtesy and personal responsibility.


Personal responsibility is overstated, since we all live in a tightly interconnected society, where we all influence each other. Our lives are ruled by many outside forces we cannot influence like intelligence, looks, parents, socioeconomic status and susceptibility to diseases, which are rolled at birth and exert a strong influence throughout life. But I guess we have different cultural values at this point. Based on Hofstede's model Germany is much less individualistic than the United States.

And if I would select a country for learning about courtesy, then I would rather visit my thai friend.



NoDevils said:


> I'm not sure about the market in Germany. Can you buy naltrexone if you have income?


You can buy everything... illegally. But you can also obtain a private prescription from your doctor, which means insurance won't cover it. And that's a problem, because Naltrexone is expensive, unless low dose Naltrexone works for you.

By the way: I already tried Naltrexone years ago. Did not work for me.



NoDevils said:


> By asking you this question or proposing a solution I'm feeding into the nonsense that it's a magical cure.


Nobody other than you claimed that Naltrexone was a cure. Even if it puts the symptoms into remission it stops working once it is discontinued, so it cannot be a cure.



Tres said:


> The idea in my head being that if dpd/drd is a protective mechanism against trauma that by introducing a medicine which blocks therapeutic chemicals that you would be chemically forced to face the trauma and bad feelings rather than dissociate.


There isn't really good evidence or theoretical reasoning to believe that depersonalization is a "protective mechanism".



NoDevils said:


> The theory behind Naltrexone is that it blocks the dissociative effects of Ketamine and should therefore be able to treat depersonalization disorder.


You got thas wrong. That's the idea behind lamotrigine.



NoDevils said:


> A large share of physicians regret going into medicine and have hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loan debt, not that we should feel bad for them or anything but now you understand their incentives.


Luckily we don't have this problem in Germany, because studying at university is mostly free.


----------



## NoDevils (6 mo ago)

Peter said:


> So the list of your diagnoses based on my posts on a forum gets longer and longer. Toxic (whatever that means), paranoid, narcissistic and now delusional and dysfunctional. The latter is even correct, but that's a trait I'm sharing with most people with severe mental illness, including the majority of this forum. The term "not a very good dude" is more problematic, because it's an entirely subjective value judgement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm skipping right over the parts of your posts that are bullshit. Thanks for issuing the correction about lamotrigine. I can't even take the groceries in your bitchass is arguing with me so frequently so I'm gonna have to conclude this conversation.


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## Peter (Jun 25, 2018)

NoDevils said:


> I'm skipping right over the parts of your posts that are bullshit.


I expected no less.


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## NoDevils (6 mo ago)

Peter said:


> I expected no less.


Why are you even going on about how Harris Harrington and Tres are depriving you of drugs like lamotrigine and naltrexone if you tried them and they didn't work?

My point about responsibility is when nobody has a magic cure to help you and research into your problem is not funded you shouldn't give up on life and indiscriminately blame everyone for your problems. People here have talked crap on UK Unreal but at least they're doing something. If you think you could run a better organization then go ahead.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

Hello NoDevils, 

Yeah I literally agreed with this dummy and he still felt compelled to argue the one part of my response he didn't agree with. He's obviously one of those people that just feels the compulsion to argue whilst bringing nothing substantial to the table. That's why I haven't been interacting with him much but yeah i'm definitely ignoring him now. And we both know he'll keep increasing the intensity, addressing things quote by quote, and accusing us of "not being able to handle his tough critique" but we both know he's just being annoying and not making much sense.

Anyways, NoDevils i'm interested in hearing more about your story. Are you still experiencing dissociation? What have you tried? etc


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## NoDevils (6 mo ago)

Tres said:


> Hello NoDevils,
> 
> Yeah I literally agreed with this dummy and he still felt compelled to argue the one part of my response he didn't agree with. He's obviously one of those people that just feels the compulsion to argue whilst bringing nothing substantial to the table. That's why I haven't been interacting with him much but yeah i'm definitely ignoring him now. And we both know he'll keep increasing the intensity, addressing things quote by quote, and accusing us of "not being able to handle his tough critique" but we both know he's just being annoying and not making much sense.
> 
> Anyways, NoDevils i'm interested in hearing more about your story. Are you still experiencing dissociation? What have you tried? etc


I think the way depersonalization presents in myself is very typical. There are lots of statistical correlations with depersonalization such as trauma, emotional mistreatment in childhood, recreational drug use, drug abuse, comorbid mental disorders like mood disorders, anxiety, and in some cases psychosis. It's also worth noting these problems are prevalent in the general population. Without getting too personal about myself I have several of these problems.

There's often an event that sparks depersonalization, perhaps a psychological 'decompensation' or a bad drug trip. Sometimes chronic depersonalization appears "out of nowhere," but most of the time it's elicited by a substance or stressful event. Some people report their depersonalization was brought on or worsened by alcohol, which shows how all recreational drugs are capable of having adverse affects.

When the depersonalization becomes chronic it usually accompanies anxious rumination. People are confused and upset why they feel depersonalized. They might have obsessive rumination about anxieties and perceived philosophical problems. Obsessive thinking tends to make anxiety worse and more unbearable. As we saw in this thread, people can become obsessed with trying to resolve depersonalization. Their search for an answer to depersonalization often involves, ironically, neglect of the physical and psychological contributors to it. In other cases people make social connections, learn things about themselves through introspection, and are able to find useful tools in overcoming the syndrome.

Many depersonalized people report a degree of disability. Some of their disability is caused by depersonalization and some of it is not. They correlate depersonalization with feelings of tiredness, detachment, and not feeling appropriate emotions in situations. They might complain that objects like flowers and trees no longer illicit feelings of beauty, or that they feel no obvious emotions towards loved ones.

Prognosis varies but most chronically depersonalized people have some alleviation of their symptoms, especially over the course of months and years. Others report their symptoms stay the same or worsen with time. Most people can function with this syndrome but it can be a struggle. Many don't want to try or lack the appropriate social support to try. Operating machinery can be dangerous depending on the type of depersonalization you have.

I think I've just described myself and the majority of people with depersonalization. Of course these are generalizations and they might be wrong. If you want to know more from a clinical perspective you should read Depersonalization: A Neglected Syndrome. I'm not an expert but the book seems pretty thorough. It could be triggering for sufferers to read because it's not told from the perspective of a sufferer.

I agree with Coolwhip that one of the best cures for depersonalization is acceptance. The irony is that this is no cure. You may have depersonalization for the rest of your life. When you're having anxiety or depersonalization it might be a good idea to submit to the feeling. That's assuming you're physically well and psychologically stable enough to have quality of life.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

NoDevils said:


> I think the way depersonalization presents in myself is very typical. There are lots of statistical correlations with depersonalization such as trauma, emotional mistreatment in childhood, recreational drug use, drug abuse, comorbid mental disorders like mood disorders, anxiety, and in some cases psychosis. It's also worth noting these problems are prevalent in the general population. Without getting too personal about myself I have several of these problems.
> 
> There's often an event that sparks depersonalization, perhaps a psychological 'decompensation' or a bad drug trip. Sometimes chronic depersonalization appears "out of nowhere," but most of the time it's elicited by a substance or stressful event. Some people report their depersonalization was brought on or worsened by alcohol, which shows how all recreational drugs are capable of having adverse affects.
> 
> ...


Hello NoDevils,

I can relate to everything you've just said and appreciate that you took the time to write it all out. I personally check the box for almost everything that leads to dpd/drd: Physical, psychological, and sexual abuse; got jumped 6 times; highly stressed due to adhd symptoms in high school, chronic black mold exposure, and had nutrient deficiencies that resulted in my hair falling out and some other issues. 
I came from a somewhat financially stable household but idk....I thought I was invincible. Regularly smoking weed using book pages as wraps. Smoked nutmeg. Even tried huffing paint a few times. 
One day I just got tired of asking God and life "why me?" and decided "I am not going to be one of those people that just falls off because life dealt me bad cards". And I still think that way. I'd sooner beg, steal, or anything else than be a victim. Especially with dpd/drd. Life wants to take away it's beauty from me? The vibrancy? Nah, that can be for someone else. Not me.


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## NoDevils (6 mo ago)

Tres said:


> Hello NoDevils,
> 
> I can relate to everything you've just said and appreciate that you took the time to write it all out. I personally check the box for almost everything that leads to dpd/drd: Physical, psychological, and sexual abuse; got jumped 6 times; highly stressed due to adhd symptoms in high school, chronic black mold exposure, and had nutrient deficiencies that resulted in my hair falling out and some other issues.
> I came from a somewhat financially stable household but idk....I thought I was invincible. Regularly smoking weed using book pages as wraps. Smoked nutmeg. Even tried huffing paint a few times.
> One day I just got tired of asking God and life "why me?" and decided "I am not going to be one of those people that just falls off because life dealt me bad cards". And I still think that way. I'd sooner beg, steal, or anything else than be a victim. Especially with dpd/drd. Life wants to take away it's beauty from me? The vibrancy? Nah, that can be for someone else. Not me.


Agreed. Life is a bitch. There's beauty in living in spite of pain. Sometimes in moments of weakness I think why do people rescue animals rather than putting them to sleep, but then I realize that's my darkness and those people are making the world a more beautiful place. The only sensible choice is to continue to live. I feel bad for people with severe dementia like in Alzheimers. They made a choice to live. They could've committed suicide like Robin Williams who had a rare form of multiple sclerosis. I respect Robin Williams' choice as well.


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

Hello NoDevils,

I understand that point of view. There are so many reasons people sink rather than swim and I can respect it. I think the one thing that my time having depersonalization taught me is that we can talk about suffering endlessly (I mean there are countless words, phrases, books, movies, music all which detail the quality of suffering) or we can just move from the "why" to the "how do I fix it". Too many people are stuck in that first stage. Some people get accustomed to wearing their suffering as a personality or an excuse. It's really a cases by case basis in my eyes but I guess my point is that I find it very interesting how we all respond to trauma and suffering differently even though many of our experiences are likely very similar.


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## jcamarini (7 mo ago)

Tres said:


> Hello,
> 
> My name is Trés Calhoun. I first developed severe DPD/DRD after I experienced a panic attack while high from marijuana. That was in 2011. From the moment I woke up until 9 years later I experienced constant dissociation with only a total of maybe 3 minutes worth of "moments of clarity" throughout.
> I will try to condense everything I know into the shortest format for you. Please understand that I know what I am talking about. I am currently a Psych Rehab Counselor and go to college for Substance Abuse Counseling (before you stop reading this is applicable to all you non-drug users too)! In my free time I study this subject because too many people are silently suffering from this torturous disorder.
> ...


Hello!! i don't know if someone share this yet, but I think this is the video of the deer dissociating




A Somatic Expierecing practitioner shared it to me and talked about Freeze response


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## Tres (Nov 7, 2011)

Hello jcamarini,

Thank you! I appreciate you for providing that video. It is not the exact video but the concept is the same.


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

jcamarini said:


> Hello!! i don't know if someone share this yet, but I think this is the video of the deer dissociating
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It seems to be a freeze response, perhaps a bit like those fainting goats. But I don't believe in TRE personally. Adrenaline can make people/animals shake (the point is to be ready for physical effort, with a fast beating heart in order to start running), or, perhaps as in this case they can shake as they are regaining partial control of their body after having gone limp. A bit in the same way as someone who slowly goes unconscious (during hypoglycemia, or vasovagal syncope, they sometimes have little convulsions). I don't think there is any evidence that this helps "releasing trauma", but the story that "humans have forgotten their true essence and we have to imitate nature to find it because nature works better than us" sells a lot of books. Apparently (ex) there is no scientific (peer reviewed) evidence that TRE works so far.
I think it's part of a culture where "humans = bad", "nature = good", that has probably infused our culture, that is probably related to the idea of original sin, and that is a very big part of the new age culture, where humans are perverting their good "natural origin" and going back to it should be a good thing. It is a story that is everywhere nowadays, and it is very easy to believe it ("natural" products cannot be bad, humans are more violent / cruel than animals (totally not true obviously), paleo regime is healthier, living like hunters will turn you into an alpha male beast... if it involves going back to our "origins", we can easily think it must be true, just because it fits that storyline that we are fed with)


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