# Curing DPD with Ayahuasca



## Abraxas

EDIT (2014): So, two years after I wrote this, I fell into a psychosis. So I can not really say that Ayahuasca cured me. It did seem to help a LOT at the time. Also the experience for me was life changing and Soul-revealing. I think ayahuasca is a gate to the Soul.

However, I did somehow developed a psychosis , after two years of perceiving constant synchronicities. Now I feel almost 100% OK, since I started doing orthomolecular medicine.

I still receive emails of people wanting to try ayahuasca as a possible cure for their DPD, im honestly in no place to answer now. Its completely up to you.

I cured my Depersonalization Disorder mainly through work with Ayahuasca, in Brazil's rainforests. I can not explicitly recommend Ayahuasca, as im not a psychiatrists and this is a *very very powerful *entheogenic, so if you decide to take it, its at your own risk. However, if you make such desicion, I will be happy to answer any further questions you might have and give you some advice on how best to take it, where, how to prepare for it, etc.

Note: Ayahuasca interacts badly with serotonine reuptake inhibitors (SSRI), MAO'I, and some other psychiatric medicines, so look it up before you decide to give it a try.
Also, if you are psychotic or shizofrenic, this is not for you. DPD should be ok (at least it was ok with me, and many people suffering Depression and Anxiety Disorders are healed with it)

Just to make something clear: Ayahuasca is not for everyone. It will take you to places and open some doors that for some are best to keep closed. I believe certain people feel the call of Ayahuasca, others dont. Only go for it if you *really feel its call*.

If you just got DPD, then best to stay away from it, as it is very very intense and powerful, unless of course you really feel its for you. But, if you ve had DPD for say, more than two/three years, and no conventional therapy/medicine is working for you... maybe Ayahuasca is what you are looking for. Still, it has risks, but in my view, with two/three years of suffering with DPD, i d take my chances.

Now, since I got my DPD from psychedelics (LSD, MDMA, 2C-I), I was very skeptical about its healing powers, and quite afraid of it to be honest.

However, I managed to overcome that fear, and I trusted the indigenous people, which have much wisdom and have been using this sacred medicine for thousands of years. I came to a point in which modern medicine (western) was not giving me any answers, so I had to make a leap of faith, and look into a more ancient and forgotten system, shamanism. These people have lived in contact with the Earth for milennia, and have used the plants around them for medical purposes, long before the first medical drug was produced in a western lab. The way they see health and the human being is completely different, instead of seeing it as a machine with clockwork pieces and functions, they see it as a whole.. psyche, body and soul are but one. So instead of looking for the missing neurotransmitter or hormone, they take you on an inner journey to the root of your soul, so that you can perform your own operation inside your mind, and heal yourself.

Also, I found that Ayahuasca is used *legally* in Brazil to treat drug and alcohol addictions!! It is also non-addicting. People never take it regularly. So, its not really your average street-drug. It really is medicine.

(note: Ayahuasca enjoys legal status in many countries, when used for traditional healing ceremonies. You dont even need to come to south america, you can find it in most countries. though south-american makes for an awesome journey which will enhance your inner journey)

So, Im going to try describe ayahuasca and its 'mechanisms' of action through three different looking glasses: Scientific, Psychological, and Spiritual. Then I will write about my own experience with it and how it cured my DPD/DR.

*Scientific:*

What is ayahuasca: It is a brew prepared by mixing two plants: one is a vine called B. caapi. It is found in the Amazon jungle. It takes at least 10 years for the vine to grow to a size that is good for making Ayahuasca. The active components in this vine are harmine, harmaline and tetrahydroharmine. Harmine and harmaline are selective and reversible inhibitors of MAO-A, while tetrahydroharmine is a weak serotonin uptake inhibitor.










The other is a plant called Psychotria viridis. The leafs are used. They contain a molecule called DMT, which is a powerful hallucinogen.










So, what is the purpose of mixing the vine with this plant? Because the inhibition of MAO-A (by harmine and harmaline from the vine) allows DMT to diffuse unmetabolized past the membranes in the stomach and small intestine and eventually get through the blood-brain barrier to activate receptor sites in the brain. Without RIMAs or the MAOI of MAO-A, DMT would be metabolized in the digestive tract and would not have an effect when taken orally.

So far so good. So, what is DMT?










"N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) is a naturally occurring psychedelic compound of the tryptamine family. DMT is found not only in several plants, but also in trace amounts in humans and other mammals, where it is originally derived from the essential amino acid tryptophan, and ultimately produced by the enzyme INMT during normal metabolism. *The natural function of its widespread presence remains undetermined*."

So, why would the human brain produce DMT?
In the seventies, some 'studies' suggested that high DMT levels in blood were an early indication of the devoloping of schizofrenia. However, further evidence and studies de-bunked this myth, and showed that the orignal study was un-scientific and biased.
Still, psychiatrist today still hold on to that belief...

When I went to see the best psychiatris in Argentina, he had these tests done, including DMT levels, which he found were very high in me (the upper limit for normal levels was 0.1 something, and I had 0.9). So he said I was at risk of developing schizofrenia, and he prescribe an anti-psychotic, which I (thanks god) refused to take.

So, I started looking into DMT. And found that many call DMT the 'spiritual-molecule'. Studies suggest at the brain releases a huge amount of DMT twice in lifetime, when we are born, and when we die. After death experiences, in which people report trascending the world and into the spirit world, are said to be caused by the release of DMT.

Some studies not only prove that DMT is not an indicator of schizofrenia, but that it might play a key anxiolityc role.

Here is an article on this: Endogenous psychoactive tryptamines reconsidered: an anxiolytic role for dimethyltryptamine

Now, while the actual physical effect Ayahuasca has on the brain is not known (other than the fact that the effect is caused by DMT), some health benefits are known and accepted by the scientific community: ie, the elimination of *parasites*. Now, you might think parasites only cause a physical impact on your health, but many recent studies show that many psychiatric disorders can be caused by parasites, including candida, worms, etc.

"Its purgative properties are important (known as la purga or "the purge"). The intense vomiting and occasional diarrhea it induces can clear the body of worms and other tropical parasites, and harmala alkaloids themselves have been shown to be anthelmintic. Thus, this action is twofold; a direct action on the parasites by these harmala alkaloids (particularly harmine in ayahuasca) works to kill the parasites, and parasites are expelled through the increased intestinal motility that is caused by these alkaloids."

This is also from wikipedia: "When used for its medicinal purposes ayahuasca affects the human consciousness for less than six hours beginning half an hour after consumption, and peaking after two hours".

So, many people think it lasts for days... it doesnt.

About the psychic aspect, it is known that subjects who take Ayahuasca have an increased level of serotonin and better serotonin uptake than regular and depressed people. Psychiatrists know that depression and anxiety problems are related to low levels of Serotonin. If you do a google search, you will find many articles and accounts on Ayahuasca curing Depression and Anxiety Disorders, without relapse.

*Psychological*

Now, how does Ayahuasca work inside your mind? And why is it helpful for DPD?

Well, while on a physical level Ayahuasca purges you of parasites, this is also true at the psychological level. The purge is also about getting rid of psychological parasites. Complexes and parts in your mind which are sucking psychic energy out of your soul/self, and are foreign to your self. that is, they are not you, they simply disguise themselves as you, in the same way a physical parasite fools the host by tricking the immune system into thinking it is a part of the body. So, things like anxiety, thought-loops, and wrong self-views, have to go away. Ayahuasca takes you to the core of your mind, layer by layer.

Now, the first stages are quite awful. Imagine you have a wound caused by a splinter, which you have not taken care of. It starts rotting, pus accumulates, the wound 'closes' but the splinter stays inside, rotting. Now, if you would suddenly open this wound, a lot of shit would start coming out. This is what happens with Ayahuasca and DP. DPD is a defense mechanism designed to keep that psychological shit/pus at bay, to keep it locked inside the unconscious mind and not let it surface to consciousness due to fear of its contents. But the cost is dear. Better to let it out. So the first couple of times you take Ayahuasca, hell breaks lose. A lot of shit starts gushing out your mind, horrible feelings, sensations, madness, shit... really really grotesque. This is also due to the physical effect of ayahuasca, as you kill parasites inside your body, these release tons of toxins into your bloodstream, which cause you to feel horrible. Also these toxins reach the brain and take their toll on your mind.

So... something in you starts to die. You might actually feel that you are dying. This is ok and it is normal. Many people report feeling like they are about to die when taking Ayahuasca.* But no one has ever died due to it.* There is only one case of a very old woman who was diabetic and died during a ceremony.

As the wound is cleansed, you will start going deeper, and ayahuasca will take you to your emotional blockages, and help you release them.

Very briefly, I would say that the mechanism of action of ayahuasca is to release stagnation of psychic energy. First, the shit gushes out, then your emotional blockages are untangled. Things like your femininity if you are a man, come into surface.

As you go deeper, you enter the Spirit world:

*Spiritual*

Now, I will not talk much about this. But just to mention, Ayahuaca will open a door to the trascendental, it will 'correct' your erroneous world-view (materialism, matter, rationality, etc), and show you the other side of the coin. This is key for self-view... one confronts fear of death, and trascends it. Then an alchemical journey begins, and one turns spiritual lead into gold, by a series of steps.

Ayahuasca is called the Vine of the Dead. I think this suits DPD. You are dead. Ayahuasca helps you recover your Soul. In that journey through the Inferno, Purgatory, you come out the other end into Heaven. Ayahuasca takes you on the quest of the Hero. It opens up the doors of Myth. To live the Myth is a healing process on its own.

*My own experience*

I participated in 9 ceremonies, 2 in one summer, and 7 the next summer.

Before the first two ceremonies, I had full-on DPD, i was in real Hell. My experience with Ayahuasca that first summer was amazing, I got a taste of heaven and fully recovered for about three months, after which I had a minor relapse, and realized I had to go deeper in the healing process. So I came back the next summer and did so.. i went really deep and cured myself for good. I really doubt I will ever get DPD or any other mental condition as I have really got to the core of my soul, and learned about my Self. My work is done.

First ceremony: (I realize that my story with ayahuasca is too personal so im gonna really summarize it. anyone who is genuinely interested in trying Ayahuasca can contact me and maybe i ll share some more)

I took two doses. The first made me feel like i was in a dream. I had a feeling of being closer to some distant path, when we used to live in harmony with the earth.
After the second dose, i began feeling very nauseous and the purge started. A lot of shit came out of my mind, my senses, feelings and perceptions were drenched in darkness, in disease, but i knew it was the ayahuasca working on me, and releasing that stuff. it was really disgusting, really unearthly, grotesque, very very intense. I felt insane, very ill, like my soul was ill and disturbed. At some point I had a kind of psychological/spiritual death. I let go. Then came a rebirth, the earth filled me with new life, i felt so much love and peace, like never before. I felt very strong, like a warrior. I felt a very strong connection to Earth, I was filled with joy. After that day, i stopped being a coward and deciced to confront darkness. I stopped identifying with my shadow, with the coward, and began the journey of the hero.

Second Ceremony.

In the second ceremony, i thought i was dying (this time for real, physically), and at that moment of vulnerability, my feminine soul came into surface, and filled me with love and sensuality, happiness and playfulness.. I felt so much love and understanding, i realized the importance of connecting to other people and other living beings, to be one with nature, with life.

One year later, the third ceremony, it helped me find my center, i learned how to trust myself and stop looking out there for help and for advice. I found my own inner master, the center, the axis of the wheel. Darkness could not touch me, I was like a lotus flower in a swamp. I was un-moved by chaos.

The fourth, I learned about being humble, and the path of redemption, the path of christ (metaphorically). i dis-identified with the hero.

The fifth, I learned about abundance and how i am free to choose light instead of darkness, to go where the light is, and simply to ask God or the Universe for anything I sincerely wish for.

Sixth, I learned about the psychological trinity of Father, Mother and Child, and how I am the three at once, i am my own father and mother.

Seventh. After a massive inner struggle in which i almost killed myself, i found the inner child, i found my Self. I dis-identified with the myth, and let go of my past. I forgived myself for the drugs i had taken, and was filled with joy for this new beginning. I think this was the best day of my life. to have found myself after all this darkness.

Eight. I felt so much love for my family, and for the world. I understood that my suffering and my trip through darkness was a necesary stage in my spiritual evolution.

Ninth: I learned a mystery about the metaphysics of the cosmos. I let go of my materialistic belief system (that matter creates mind) and opened my eyes to the spirit world.

Anyway, halfway through this healing process my DPD went away for good. I do not have any DR nor DP symptoms anymore. I am at peace with myself, i enjoy moments of happiness and bliss, i do not worry for almost anything, im not anxious anymore.. i do not fear anything, or at least im not obsessed about anything like i used to. I can concentrate and focus well, i dont have those weird thoughts anymore, and i feel healthier overal, also physically.

Well.. I really think Ayahuasca is the cure you people are looking for.

If anyone wants some advice or more information, you can write me to abraxas17 at hotmail .com

note: I do not sell/serve ayahuasca  , im dont have any interest on this other than helping people out.

Also, this thread i wrote deals with some psychological aspects that will be relevant when working with Ayahuasca.

Peace & Love

Abraxas


----------



## Guest

Interesting, my Dp/Dr was catalyzed by a hallucinogen too.

I would be way too nervous to take something like that...though I would consider a homeopathic preparation of it.


----------



## Abraxas

Lisa32 said:


> Interesting, my Dp/Dr was catalyzed by a hallucinogen too.
> 
> I would be way too nervous to take something like that...though I would consider a homeopathic preparation of it.


hey, to be honest i doubt it would work, the idea is for it to guide you through an inner journey, and you need its full power... plus i dont think they make homeopathic preparations of it.

anyway, i was really scared as well.. i had had very bad trips with LSD, shrooms, etc... the last thing i wanted was another bad trip.. but ayahuasca is different, it felt like medicine, it was the real deal. sometimes to solve these kinds of things you need to confront your fears.


----------



## Guest

I can't confirm that they do make homeopathic preparations of it but they do make it for canabis, LSD, agaricus etc. I thought I saw somewhere that they did a proving on Ayahuasca. Need to get back to you on this.


----------



## Abraxas

Deeza said:


> This would be a risky thing to try if you have dp\dr anxiety etc.. why not just tell people to smoke DMT and not take Ayahuasca which lasts for hours. When you smoke DMT it only lasts for about 15-30mins at the most. Also you would be able to measure out a smaller dose, to first see how that person reacts to the trip, instead of drinking Ayahuasca and going into a full blown psychedelic experience. just my 2 cents on the whole thing...


risky why? did u even read the whole thread, I mentioned Ayahuasca is used for anxiety disorders. and how do you know it would be risky for DPD? have you or anyone you known who has DPD tried it? Im telling you that I had DPD and I cured myself from it with Ayahuasca. Of course this does not mean it will cure you all. But i doubt it is risky. most that could happen you can get a bit scared and continue with your DPD. but you have to confront your fears.
Ayahuasca is only risky if you are psychotic/schizofrenic, or if you are taking SSRI's or MAOI's. Also apparently some foods high in tryptophan should be avoided during the days you take ayahuasca, but personally i doubt this is true.

DMT alone wont help. Ayahuasca is medicine, DMT crystals is a common drug you smoke to have a couple of halucinations. Ayhuasca takes you on an inner journey, it cleans you, it purges you. for this you need the vine.

React to the trip, what do you mean? i mentioned no one dies with it, there is no lethal dose. If that really matters to you, you can take half a dose, or a couple of drops and see how you react. It is much easier than measuring a pure DMT crystal dose... as doses are in the milligram scale (for DMT crystals, 20-40 mg is the average dose.. thats quite hard to measure. The DMT in ayahuasca is very low and diluted, the action comes from the combination of DMT and the vine)


----------



## FacelessJane

I'm hesitant to take it too, although I think it's what I need. I've been avoiding my fears for years, part of the defense mechanism of DP/DR. I'm afraid that I'll be too weak to handle it.


----------



## Abraxas

FacelessJane said:


> I'm hesitant to take it too, although I think it's what I need. I've been avoiding my fears for years, part of the defense mechanism of DP/DR. I'm afraid that I'll be too weak to handle it.


Hi Jane, you are paralyzed by fear because you are identifying with your Shadow, with the Coward archetype. Ayahuasca will help you with this. It might sound very harsh and rough, but the spirit of Ayahuasca is definitely feminine, she's like a mother that will guide you through your process. Ayahuasca shows you the hero in you, so that you stop identifying with the shadow/coward. its a process of alchemy that paralells many mystic beliefs. Fear will take you nowhere. you need to let go of fear and face darkness. you will come out victorious as darkness is not an opposing force to light, it is simply the absence of light. once ayahuasca shows you your inner light, you will have nothing to fear of.

peace


----------



## snow storm

Thanx!. Im gonna read this more thoroughly later. I think it will be my last resort.


----------



## Abraxas

Deeza said:


> This is taken directly from erowid.
> 
> "The main common denominator of ayahuasca brews is the Banisteriopsis caapi vine, which contains monoamine oxidase inhibiting harmala alkaloids. These alkaloids have a sedative effect and may be somewhat visionary at higher doses. However, the primary visions caused by ayahuasca come when Psychotria viridis or other DMT-containing plants are added to the brew."
> 
> Meaning when you take ayahuasca it is the vines that contain DMT and harmala alkaloids which in combination allow the DMT to be active orally, which also in turn makes it last longer. Just as you can take Pharmahuasca which is taking DMT crystals + Harmala in extract form and you basically create the same thing as ayahuasca without need of a brew or the vines etc.


What is the point you are trying to make with this? of course ayahuasca lasts longer, i specified on the thread that it lasts about 5-6 hours. what is wrong with that? 6 hours of healing. if it were for me i d make it last longer.

of course, it could be 6 hours of hell.. no plant or person is going to heal your self for you. Ayahuasca is a tool, you make the operation, you make the desicions. Ayahuasca will guide you, will tell you what to do. if you are too afraid to do so, well... she wont force you. worst thing that can happen, you go back home the same way you arrived, with DPD. But if you give a good fight, if you really want to recover and are willing to make some changes, ayahuasca will not let you down. only you can let yourself down.


----------



## Abraxas

Deeza said:


> "DMT alone wont help. Ayahuasca is medicine, DMT crystals is a common drug you smoke to have a couple of halucinations. Ayhuasca takes you on an inner journey, it cleans you, it purges you. for this you need the vine."
> 
> Ayahuasca is DMT... The point im trying to make is people should not do ayahuasca as it lasts longer and is more intense, thus creating a bad trip. DMT in smokable form would create the same experience, would last shorter, and can be dosed to a specific low dose\high dose etc. In my opinion telling people to take ayahuasca when they have dp\dr and other anxiety issues is like playing russian roulette.


man im not getting you. have you even read what i wrote? Ayahuasca is not DMT! Ayahuasca is a combination of two plants, one of which contains DMT. there are many other alkaloids and active substances in those plants. Plus its not just about taking it, as if you were taking an LSD hit, its about doing an Ayahuasca healing ceremony. you dont take it in your house or at a party...


----------



## Abraxas

Deeza said:


> In my opinion telling people to take ayahuasca when they have dp\dr and other anxiety issues is like playing russian roulette.


first of all im not telling anyone to do it, everyone here has their own free will. Also, really.. sometimes you do need to take a fucking chance man. unless you want to stay in DPD forever. of course, ayahuasca is not the only answer, but that attitude wont take you anywhere.


----------



## Pablo

There are some good vids on Youtube about this, the guy who makes those nature programmes in the UK Bruce Parry filmed himself on this and said it was one of the most difficult but humbling experiences of his life. I looked into it a bit there is an old thread somewhere on this board but cant find it at the moment. Apparently it's been turned into a bit of a tourist industry taking it in some countries and finding a authentic shaman to guide you is difficult these days, I would like to take it but fear it would tip me over the edge into complete insanity


----------



## Abraxas

Deeza said:


> lol dude, I know what im talking about, ive extracted DMT from Mimosa Hositlis root bark. the other alkaloids that are also present are small and have very little to do with the trip, as DMT is the main thing that causes the experience.. the other plant just allows it to be active orally. and I know its not about taking it as some "party drug". DMT isnt a party drug, its more of a reconnection to the earth and your true self, meant to be taking by your self, in a nice setting.. im not doubting the powers of it as I my self have had some truly amazing, positive life changing experiences. I think people should just becareful because ayahuasca lasts long, which could create a panic attack etc. in turn creating more dp\dr..


well.. its like we re trying to discuss about a book one of us hasnt even read. if you had tried ayahuasca you wouldnt be making such comparison (to smoking DMT), as these experiences are very dissimilar.

Of course there are risks. Ayahuasca is very very powerful, and i made that clear. I also said that my first two times with it i went through very difficult experiences, hell actually. in one i purged a lot of darkness and felt fucking insane, and in the next one i thought i was dying. but its part of the process. some day you will have to face your fears, with or without ayahuasca. the thing with ayahuasca is, it takes you to places inside your mind that no other substance or medicine takes you to. and not only that, it also helps you purge and get rid of that darkness and ilness. it really is sacred medicine.


----------



## Abraxas

Deeza said:


> What ever man im not taking it, as I know I would not react to it well. If other people wanna risk it, thats fine by me.


no one is inviting you to take it. but if you dont want to, dont describe it as a risk, because you are changing peoples perception of this healing tool, out of ignorance, as you dont know it. you also dont know you would not react well to it. it is medicine, with risks. the same way SSRIs have risks, and the same way every choice you make in your life has risks.


----------



## babybowrain

I'm sorry but are you also selling it? Previously you were claiming your dp was cured another way..


----------



## Jayden

babybowrain said:


> I'm sorry but are you also selling it? Previously you were claiming your dp was cured another way..


yeah im pretty sure i saw that too


----------



## Surfingisfun001

Who wants to go to South America with me?


----------



## FacelessJane

Abraxas said:


> Hi Jane, you are paralyzed by fear because you are identifying with your Shadow, with the Coward archetype. Ayahuasca will help you with this. It might sound very harsh and rough, but the spirit of Ayahuasca is definitely feminine, she's like a mother that will guide you through your process. Ayahuasca shows you the hero in you, so that you stop identifying with the shadow/coward. its a process of alchemy that paralells many mystic beliefs. Fear will take you nowhere. you need to let go of fear and face darkness. you will come out victorious as darkness is not an opposing force to light, it is simply the absence of light. once ayahuasca shows you your inner light, you will have nothing to fear of.
> 
> peace


I'm working on purging the shadow currently, through communing with nature and consulting native american wisdom/symbolism/'medicine', to strengthen myself. I am trying to release my fear and negativity. It seems like a slow process. Recurring anxiety and lack of awareness creep back in and worry me, but I'm staying patient with myself and the process...

Thanks for your guidance, I truly appreciate it. Peace.


----------



## Abraxas

babybowrain said:


> I'm sorry but are you also selling it? Previously you were claiming your dp was cured another way..


... no, i do not sell ayahuasca. I am just trying to help.

also i do not recommend anyone buying ayahuasca, the best way is to take it with a shaman. most shamans or people serving ayahuasca will at most accept donations, they will never charge. this is not something they do for money.. this thing is sacred, this is real medicine. people who serve ayahuasca devote their life to light, to love, to helping others. (also, i am neither a shaman nor do i serve ayahuasca. and if i ever serve it, i doubt i would charge for it)

well... i claimed my DP was cured by exploring my feminine and dark sides... this is still true. ayahuasca helped me uncover this, but i had been already working with these matters before i took ayahuasca, and also after i took it, and still i am going on with my path. i mentioned my work with ayahausca in my first thread. I also mentioned it here, quite explicitely... top of the list, in my thread about things that made my DP better:

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/27419-things-that-made-mine-better/page__p__230402#entry230402

i didnt go into details with it because first i wanted people here to know me, and to post about other things that helped me with my dp, because i realized that talking about ayahuasca as a first post was not the way to go, as this is quite serious, and i wanted people here to know me before i suggested it as a tool for healing, so that you could see where i was coming from, so that i wasnt such a stranger. There are many things that helped me cure my DPD, ayahuasca is one of them. I wanted to save it for later.. i guess i was trying to avoid comments like these...

i find it a bit insulting, considering i spent quite a while writing this thread and all the others, and my only purpose here in this forum is to help others. but anyway, i know my truth... i know my presence here will not be of much help for some, and might annoy a couple, but im happy knowing that a few might find guidance and will see that i speak the truth and have nothing else to offer.

all the other things i mentioned that helped me cured my dp are also true. Ayahuasca wont cure your DPD, you do the actual healing by accepting yourself for who you are. ayahuasca just shows you were some of the problems are, and helps you purge darkness and stagnated energy. the will-power, the love and the self-acceptance, no medicine will give for you.


----------



## MetalMilitia

Interesting read on Ayahuasca. There is a documentary called DMT, the spirit molecule that I recommend to anyone who is interested in taking that journey. A study was done involving 100 patients I believe, and it was cut short because the experiences the patients were having were far beyond the realm of scientific inquiry. For example, majority of the subjects reported seeing beings of some sort. Not just seeing, but interacting with them. Watch the documentary, as it is covered in it.

I've also read that there is a connection between the pineal gland, death, and DMT. It is thought that when the brain stops functioning, a vast amount of DMT is released from the pineal gland. One idea is that the pineal gland is actually the third eye, as DMT is thought to be responsible for dreams. NDE's are thought to confirm this idea. This is why the NDE patients report tunnels of light and so forth. Others believe that the "death" one experiences during the journey on DMT is actually ego death. Upon passing ego death, the user enters an area called the godhead. I've heard some people describe it as the beginning of the universe, where all consciousness resides. It is supposed to be a place of pure stillness.

I don't pretend to know if any of that is true, as there is no substantial evidence to support it and I've never used DMT. These are all things that I read during my own independent research, as well as what some users have reported.

That being said, there is another way to experience ego death and explore the inner self for those who don't want to take a substance. Isolation tanks nullify all sensory input, which just leaves the brain. The idea is, the brain is a receiver of sorts, and by "turning off" all sensory input, the brain tunes in to different frequencies, thus invoking a trip of some sort. The good thing about isolation tanks, is that it can end whenever you want it to.

Anyway, well done Abraxas. Good information.


----------



## = n

surfingisfun001 said:


> Who wants to go to South America with me?


This thread is very interesting to me. I looked into Ayahuasca a few years ago and was intrigued. It sounds like the kind of thing that could really help me. There's a phyical and also a mental aspect; a psychic unblocking (something i've alwawys felt the need for in recovering).

Did you _really_ do this Abraxas? I don't mean to sound skeptical but you know- it is the internet!

What was the set up like? Where did you take it? Who was with you/around? Did you take it as part of a group, was it in a city or in the jungle? Sorry if you answered all these- i'm in a net cafe and i'm skimming things fast to save money!

surfingisfun001- if i could get more information and do a bit more convincing research i would seriously be willing to go with you to South America (i'd have to save for a few months)!

Here is a person saying he has been cured by a specific concoction (and a lot of mental work himself...)

As far as i'm concerned this is front page news!

Deserves pinning!

And by the way, i really don't think this is the same as DMT, it's a complex mixture, who knows for sure how much the interactions of all the component substances have to do with it?


----------



## recursive

Just to be clear... You all know that you can get non-illegal ayahuasca plants off the internet in pretty much any country, right? I've had an incredible glowing experience with a DMT + MAO Inhibitor mix using Anadenanthera seeds and Syrian Rue.

And while we're on this topic, I would highly recommend researching mescaline, contained in the peyote and San Pedro cacti. The cactus itself is perfectly legal pretty much anywhere, although it might be banned in Australia. For some reason nearly every psychoactive-containing plant is illegal there. Sorry, Australians. Anyway, it is used in many spiritual ceremonies and shamanistic rituals, and has the potential to produce a life-changing experience when done correctly and respectfully!


----------



## violetgirl

Wouldn't this be an extremely bad idea for people with abuse/ trauma induced DPD?

Could it not induce repressed memories/ emotions, and I imagine that would be horiffic if that happened during an intense trip with no psychological support.


----------



## EverDream

violetgirl said:


> Wouldn't this be an extremely bad idea for people with abuse/ trauma induced DPD?
> 
> Could it not induce repressed memories/ emotions, and I imagine that would be horiffic if that happened during an intense trip with no psychological support.


I agree. I don't know too much about Ayahuasca but it seems to me that it can help some and ruin others.


----------



## = n

EverDream said:


> I agree. I don't know too much about Ayahuasca but it seems to me that it can help some and ruin others.


Well no one should be forced to take ayahuasca! If you feel extremely weak and fearful then don't take it! But i'm feeling reasonably mentally strong right now.

But my whole understanding of the experience of this drug is that it helps you (or forces you!) to _face and overcome_ your fears/demons. If you don't want to face or overcome your fears then this isn't for you i'd guess! Personally i'm willing to face terrors to overcome this (i think terror got me here in the first place). I'd still like to hear more from Abraxas though.

I'm not sure ordering stuff from the internet is exactly the same. As i recall, there are typically a lot of things (freshly picked) in the traditional 'ayahuasca' brew. No doubt scientists are pretty good at picking out active ingredients, yet after all- the brain still isn't fully understood (or how interactions between substances affect it); if i was going to go for this i think i'd opt for the full 'jungle experience'!


----------



## Pablo

I'd only do it with a Shaman who knows what they are doing, don;t underestimate the power of the ritual and process involved and the support of someone who has gone through it, it's well known that the impact of drugs are as much to do with set and setting as anything else, this is the most powerful hallucinogen known on the planet so I wouldn't trifle with it. The ritual serves a important purpose and in one documentary I saw they had to go and live alone without sugar or salt in their diet for about a week to purge before they took the drug to make it a clean experience, so I wouldn't order it off the internet or do it with someone who doesn't really know what they are doing.


----------



## peacedove

MetalMilitia said:


> I've also read that there is a connection between the pineal gland, death, and DMT. It is thought that when the brain stops functioning, a vast amount of DMT is released from the pineal gland. One idea is that the pineal gland is actually the third eye, as DMT is thought to be responsible for dreams. NDE's are thought to confirm this idea. This is why the NDE patients report tunnels of light and so forth. Others believe that the "death" one experiences during the journey on DMT is actually ego death. Upon passing ego death, the user enters an area called the godhead. I've heard some people describe it as the beginning of the universe, where all consciousness resides. It is supposed to be a place of pure stillness.


Omg you people are freaking me out. Although I can see where it could be beneficial... "the beginning of the universe" That is my biggest fear. That is how my DP started, when i was 5 or 6 thinking about the beginning of the universe. But then now you see why this scares me so much. Maybe, ideally I'd face my fear and overcome it, but maybe I'll go over the edge, turn psychotic and never come back...


----------



## MetalMilitia

peacedove said:


> Omg you people are freaking me out. Although I can see where it could be beneficial... "the beginning of the universe" That is my biggest fear. That is how my DP started, when i was 5 or 6 thinking about the beginning of the universe. But then now you see why this scares me so much. Maybe, ideally I'd face my fear and overcome it, but maybe I'll go over the edge, turn psychotic and never come back...


I suggest doing a lot of research on DMT before you would make a decision. It is the most potent hallucinogen in existence, at least that anyone is aware of. It is not to be taken lightly, as people have had really bad experiences on it. If you have doubts, then don't do it. But most important, do the research. Many peoples lives have been changed because of it. Here is a link to the documentary I mentioned.


----------



## MetalMilitia

I figure I'll post all of the videos. Makes it easier so you all don't have to try to find it. Hope this is okay.


----------



## MetalMilitia

Parts 4 and 5.


----------



## Abraxas

*Before I start replying to these posts, i want to make something clear:*

*Ayahuasca is very, very powerful. It will knock down some doors that you might unconsciouly be trying to keep closed (but which in my view are causing the DPD). A lot of darkness and disease is going to come gushing out those doors (well at least that is what happened with me) *. Now, it might all go smoothly and bright, but you have to know that there is the possibility of you confronting yourself with overwhelming feelings/perceptions, and states of mind you have never experienced (*specially* if you never experimented with psychedelics). there *is* the possibility of entering a panick attack. however i do not believe this is something bad. fear is ok. you might have to learn how to cope with it, and intead of fighting it.. you let go, surrendering yourself to Nature, ... to trust the Universe or whatever is guiding you, that which is above you. you might take a leap of faith in that moment of chaos, and find order, find courage, find peace, find love, find your self.
this leap, *you* will have to make, nothing is going to do this for you, not even ayahuasca.

this is really not for everyone. this is for those who want to confront their fears, for those who want to stop identifying with the coward and become the hero, for those who genuinely want to regain health. sometimes we are afraid of letting go of DPD, because DPD ´protects you´ from the intensity of life, of being. so this is for those who want to be. who want to get in touch with their feelings, those who want to follow the path of the heart. the path of the heart is difficult because it is not rational, it does not give you straight answers like the mind. and sometimes it hurts, it is difficult. but in my view it is the best path. to think with the heart instead of the mind is my true desire. the mind fools you into perpetual, constant fear and inhibition (DPD), with the excuse of it ´protecting you´from the world, from the ups and downs of life. but it is really ´protecting you´ from your true self, it just makes you avoid yourself, it makes you live a lie. now, truth can be scary. but it is truth, and it will always prevail, sooner or later you will have to accept it and embrace it. so ayahuasca is really for those who want to stop avoiding themselves, and are ready to let go of the fears that are keeping you away from that self.



= n said:


> I'm not sure ordering stuff from the internet is exactly the same. As i recall, there are typically a lot of things (freshly picked) in the traditional 'ayahuasca' brew. No doubt scientists are pretty good at picking out active ingredients, yet after all- the brain still isn't fully understood (or how interactions between substances affect it); if i was going to go for this i think i'd opt for the full 'jungle experience'!


yeah i dont recommend ordering ayahuasca analogues or ayahuasca bottles from the internet. best to do this in nature... it doesnt even need be in the jungle, hills, grasslands, anything will do, so long as you feel comfortable there. but best to be accompanied by a shaman. this is not something to be playing with.. ayahuasca is powerful and sacred. i really felt it has its own spirit, a force which is ancient, and feminine.


----------



## = n

Thank you for your responses Abraxas. It's of interest to me, i'll have to research it further (and start saving money if im really going to South America)


----------



## Abraxas

= n said:


> Thank you for your responses Abraxas. It's of interest to me, i'll have to research it further (and start saving money if im really going to South America)


hey bro no problem. you dont really need to go to south america (its better though, more fun i guess), i know they have places in the UK and in Europe where they serve ayahuasca (they serve it all around the world). do some search on the net.. and try find a place where they do it in nature. i mean, you dont need to take it with a proper indigenous brazilian/peruvian shaman. you can take it with anyone who is experienced.. just avoid taking it by yourself/buying ayahuasca from the net.
also good to take it in very small groups, or maybe just you and the shaman, to avoid social phobia at that state.


----------



## Surfingisfun001

= n ...

it depends on my mental state. if it doesn't get better this year then i'm planning on south america/ayahuasca.

keep in touch.


----------



## violetgirl

Abraxas said:


> well... my view is better to confront those memories and let them go. its only an extremely bad idea for those who are psychotic/schizofrenic and those taking medication.


I really think you're trivialising trauma/ abuse here. It's not as simple as confronting memories and letting them go. 

Say someone who's blocked off abuse memories because they are too traumatic, who is suddenly confronted by them in the middle of a trip, is just gonna 'confront them and let them go'. Just like that? No emotional repurcussions? No anger about it? No regression?


----------



## Guest

Abraxas said:


> *Before I start replying to these posts, i want to make something clear:*
> 
> *Ayahuasca is very, very powerful. It will knock down some doors that you might unconsciouly be trying to keep closed (but which in my view are causing the DPD). A lot of darkness and disease is going to come gushing out those doors (well at least that is what happened with me) *. Now, it might all go smoothly and bright, but you have to know that there is the possibility of you confronting yourself with overwhelming feelings/perceptions, and states of mind you have never experienced (*specially* if you never experimented with psychedelics). there *is* the possibility of entering a panick attack. however i do not believe this is something bad. fear is ok. you might have to learn how to cope with it, and intead of fighting it.. you let go, surrendering yourself to Nature, ... to trust the Universe or whatever is guiding you, that which is above you. you might take a leap of faith in that moment of chaos, and find order, find courage, find peace, find love, find your self.
> this leap, *you* will have to make, nothing is going to do this for you, not even ayahuasca.


I may not agree with everything you're posting (not just in this post), but my 6th or 7th sense tells me you're right on point







I just how they say "resonate" with this.

I smoked some special herbal stuff (not weed I wrote it wrong in my thread), and it lead me to a point where it was really feeling like what you're describing (even thought it was not the substance you talk about). My underlying anxiety/fear/DP - I don't even know what to call it anymore - just became overwhelming, but it felt like it's just as controllable. At the same time, it was EXTREMELY scary.

I still have a little fear about these "spiritual" bs, but it was really strange. An extreme DP/anxiety feeling after smoking, felt like my mind just got fucked by the stuff I smoked, but I was trying to stand on one leg and I did it perfectly. how can that be?

it really felt like the gap was close but I was scared to jump. Jesus I'm being so "spiritual" again









anyway thank you


----------



## Abraxas

violetgirl said:


> I really think you're trivialising trauma/ abuse here. It's not as simple as confronting memories and letting them go.
> 
> Say someone who's blocked off abuse memories because they are too traumatic, who is suddenly confronted by them in the middle of a trip, is just gonna 'confront them and let them go'. Just like that? No emotional repurcussions? No anger about it? No regression?


well maybe it wont happen in one healing ceremony. maybe it will take more. but surely it is better to confront these memories rather than repress them and try dealing with the symptoms that repression causes. i think ayahuasca will show you how to surf through those memories/traumas.. but that is just my guess.. maybe you can do some research on experiences with ayahuasca of people who suffered abuse/trauma.

there is a good database of experiences at www.erowid.org 
here is the one about health benefits
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Ayahuasca_Health_Benefits.shtml

again, ayahuasca really isnt for everyone. it is just for a small group of people that genuinely feel its call.

peace


----------



## Guest

violetgirl said:


> I really think you're trivialising trauma/ abuse here. It's not as simple as confronting memories and letting them go.
> 
> Say someone who's blocked off abuse memories because they are too traumatic, who is suddenly confronted by them in the middle of a trip, is just gonna 'confront them and let them go'. Just like that? No emotional repurcussions? No anger about it? No regression?


I think, when repressed traumas/emotions are so strong that they cause DP/anxiety/panic, there's only two choices : "coping" with it (which means repressing the wake up call of repressed emotions), or facing them. smoking any substance is like speeding up the process.


----------



## violetgirl

Lowrey said:


> I think, when repressed traumas/emotions are so strong that they cause DP/anxiety/panic, there's only two choices : "coping" with it (which means repressing the wake up call of repressed emotions), or facing them. smoking any substance is like speeding up the process.


I totally agree with you there. I recovered from DP, because I faced up to things I was repressing. And having DP was made it twice as hard, because my memory was so patchy. It was a long, slow process, but I got there in the end.
The reason I'm so maybe, suspicious, about this whole thing, is because I had really irresposible therapy, to enduce repressed memories/ emotions, all in one go, and the shock and trauma of it all, triggered a severe psychotic episode. Which got mixed up with some trips I'd taken in the past, making it even more nightmarish. This is why I'm warning people to be careful. The whole thing made my DP/ DR a million times worse.
Maybe this thing is ok for people who are not being the person they want to be etc. But if you're gonna induce memories, quickly, with no support, my personal belief is that it's a bad idea.

If someone was to genuienly freak out during the ceremony, what help is there? Or do they just have to ride it out?


----------



## Guest

violetgirl said:


> I totally agree with you there. I recovered from DP, because I faced up to things I was repressing. And having DP was made it twice as hard, because my memory was so patchy. It was a long, slow process, but I got there in the end.
> The reason I'm so maybe, suspicious, about this whole thing, is because I had really irresposible therapy, to enduce repressed memories/ emotions, all in one go, and the shock and trauma of it all, triggered a severe psychotic episode. Which got mixed up with some trips I'd taken in the past, making it even more nightmarish. This is why I'm warning people to be careful. The whole thing made my DP/ DR a million times worse.
> Maybe this thing is ok for people who are not being the person they want to be etc. But if you're gonna induce memories, quickly, with no support, my personal belief is that it's a bad idea.


agree. but if you really be honest, DP/anxiety/panic is really a harmless thing. in itself, it is an emotion. a terrible one, but doesn't matter how much you suffer, you're healthy and okay. if you think about it, it's really a great way from nature/God to point your attention to yourself. harmless and effective.

while experiencing anxiety/DP, there's no way you'll keep on beating yourself by repressing your true self. it's so unbearable that it leave no room for trying to not deal with it.

of course, maybe it's a bad idea for someone who's not "ready" to face what's deep. but I'm sure that the worst possibility is an extreme panic attack with anxiety aftermath (which is IMO close to the worst experience a human can have), but nothing that's permanently harmful.


----------



## violetgirl

Lowrey said:


> agree. but if you really be honest, DP/anxiety/panic is really a harmless thing. in itself, it is an emotion. a terrible one, but doesn't matter how much you suffer, you're healthy and okay. if you think about it, it's really a great way from nature/God to point your attention to yourself. harmless and effective.
> 
> while experiencing anxiety/DP, there's no way you'll keep on beating yourself by repressing your true self. it's so unbearable that it leave no room for trying to not deal with it.
> 
> of course, maybe it's a bad idea for someone who's not "ready" to face what's deep. but I'm sure that the worst possibility is an extreme panic attack with anxiety aftermath (which is IMO close to the worst experience a human can have), but nothing that's permanently harmful.


I know this sounds stupid, but even though I was expressing outwardly that something was seriously wrong, cutting, DP, depression, anxitey, relationship problems, self-hatred, I had absolutely no idea where it was coming from, I just thought it was 'me'. I dunno if that was denial. 
And having these repressed memories come up, and realising the people who had caused it, were the two people I loved and trusted most in the world, caused the psychosis. I couldn't deal with it, the shock was too much for me.

So I guess, if you're looking to induce memories, knowing that something is 'up' then yeah, it might work. 
I just know I literally went to hell and back, and it made me a lot worse, the DP/ DR, everything.


----------



## Guest

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

There is a tremendous amount of scientific research on Ayahuasca at Pubmed. I suggest anyone considering this to look at the articles. Just go to PubMed and plug in the word.

It would seem that this is indeed DMT. It is stated that "healthy individuals" find various states of enlightenment or enjoyment. The reaction to those with existing emotional disorders/mental health disorders is still being studied.

I avoided ALL recreational drugs including pot since I was young as I thought, "I have already come with an altered state of consciousness, sometimes so terrifying, I can't understand why someone would wish to experience something like it."

Also, we know everyone reacts differently to ALL medications, and that includes pain relievers like Aspirin.

I am also skeptical of repressed memories save in extremely serious cases of abuse. I was abused and I recall everything. It has been found that many don't FORGET but simply don't wish to speak of it. And I would think a hallucinogen could make one hallucinate something that never happened. Therapists have been sued for creating false memories. Many studies have been done on this. Also, memory is a completely separate field of study.(See long term studies by Elizabeth Loftus at U. of Washington).

Someone else stated they were on an MAOI with this drug -- that is apparently a fatal combination. Ayahuasca/DMT increases blood pressure. If you take the two together you could have a stroke. The same is true with St. John's Wort. People forget that many existing medications of all kinds ARE created from natural sources. This is nothing new. My anti-cancer pill was created from the bark of a tree -- chemical variations and synthesis of the original product! Doesn't mean it can have dangerous side effects, but I have no choice re: taking it.

EDIT: Also, forgot to say, that I was on 3 separate MAOI inhibitors. You cannot eat things that are fermented as that will increase your blood pressure to dangerous levels. This is true (per a few articles I just read of those using it in South America) -- you should avoid cheese, wine, fava beans! ... I remember having a very restricted diet. But the MAOI gave me very LOW blood pressure on standing and I would faint. Couldn't stay on it. Did nothing for any of my symptoms -- depression, anxiety or DP/DR.

Anyone experimenting with this SHOULD be supervised. And this purging is vomiting and diarreah SP! The benefit would be for LOCAL people who have parasites from poor sanitation. A healthy individual from a Western country wouldn't have these parasites. It apparently serves a number of medicinal purposes other than in religious ceremonies.

In some studies it indicates some have a "pleasant" experience a more "religious" experience, while some experience panic and dysphoria. <--- DP/DR are dysphoric. They aren't specific about that definition, but you feel "odd" and "uncomfortable" with that oddness.

I have never seen a study indicating this would help DP/DR which in and of itself is a perceptual distortion.

*Again WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT. Personally I wouldn't touch this anymore than I would smoke weed. I don't even smoke cigarettes (I suppose it was lucky I also had asthma as a child.)

At any rate, if you want a TON of studies on this that are scientifically based go to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/ and plug in the word. I think you can make more informed decisions by also studying those articles. *

Researchers still do not know if DP from abuse, or even those who have DP _*without abuse or drugs*_ should be treated in the same manner medically or not.

I do understand wanting to try anything and everything to get rid of DP/DR. I have experimented with so many Rx meds. Since I am better than I was 20 years ago, I don't want to rock the boat. If I went back to the way I felt as a teen, I would again wish to die. It has been THAT bad. I have been completely unable to function at certain times.

Good luck to anyone trying this. It could help some, but I'd think it could cause a catastrophe with some people here. And if some individuals have diagnoses of schizophrenia, bipolar, OCD ... many things ... panic clearly ... I would be very cautious. IMHO. And one should be clean of ALL OTHER DRUGS, Rec and Rx. AND should follow instructions re: diet ... indeed it would be better to experiment with this with organizations who use it for religious purposes, or yeah, go on a vacation -- apparently this is very popular these days. Costly.


----------



## violetgirl

Dreamer* said:


> I am also skeptical of repressed memories save in extremely serious cases of abuse. I was abused and I recall everything. It has been found that many don't FORGET but simply don't wish to speak of it. And I would think a hallucinogen could make one hallucinate something that never happened. Therapists have been sued for creating false memories. Many studies have been done on this. Also, memory is a completely separate field of study.(See long term studies by Elizabeth Loftus at U. of Washington).


In my case, I literally could not remember, I'd blocked it all out. And it turned into self-harm, depression, anxeity etc instead. The DP messed with my memory so much, I could hardly remember anything from my childhood. So there were definite sings that something was wrong, but I never connected the two. My problem was more repressed emotions, I had internalised everything I felt, and could not express it, which is why I self-harmed and got DP.
It's definitely possibly that people block things out and blame themselves, or act out. You remembered everything, some people, like me, didn't remember a thing. We are all different. Just because you remembered everything, doesn't mean it doesn't happen to other people and that repressed memories don't exist. Everybody has different experiences.

'It has been found that many forget' etc. Has been found where? Just because it 'has been found' doesn't make it true. I don't have much faith in psychiatry at the moment, I spent years in and out of doctors offices, and nothing helped me.

Plus, all this talk of 'studies' etc. I never consulted a psychiatric book, study, anything. And I healed myself.


----------



## Abraxas

Lowrey said:


> Maybe this thing is ok for people who are not being the person they want to be etc. But if you're gonna induce memories, quickly, with no support, my personal belief is that it's a bad idea.
> 
> If someone was to genuienly freak out during the ceremony, what help is there? Or do they just have to ride it out?


well, a person with DPD does not sound like one who is being the person he/she wants to be.

the support is given by Mother Earth and the shaman.

there are no guarantees, there are always risks. i am not 'selling' this as a fool-proof, 100% efficient, smooth-ride healing tool. i think this miracle medicine/therapy does not exist, at least not for DPD. Ayahuasca opens the wound and cleans the pus and rotten material... you do the operation. if you are gonna just freeze and panick, and fight its effect.. well, you might regret having taken it. if however, you let go and trust ayahuasca and Mother Earth, i bet you ll be in for a tough but enlightening ride, full of catharsis and healing. but well.. this is my belief. i truly believe Ayahuasca is a gift from Mother Earth, it is true medicine, no way around it. at least that was my experience, I owe Ayahuasca my life. but well.. again, im not selling this, im not a shaman.. im just telling my story with it. maybe you try it and you enter hell, and dont get out. also maybe you are prescribed an antipsychotic by your psychiatrist and you lose your mind with it. but one comes from an ancient indigenous tradition that some say goes back at least 10,000 years. these are people who live in communion with nature, these people have real wisdom. in my opinion western medicine is a fucking fraud, designed to mask the symptoms without addressing the root of the disease, and keeping you hooked to drugs and psychiatrists. but anyway, that is my view.. all im trying to do here is making people with DPD know that ayahuasca is out there. that it exists. and that it cured me. you make your own research and inner work and see wether this is good for you.

peace
Abraxas


----------



## violetgirl

It's interesting you talk about purging, because that's exactly what I did to get better. It was worse than any drug withdrawal I've had.
Nearly everything you describe about your trip, is what I went through, but it was a very slow- and painful, process. Looking at myself, seeing things i really didn't like about myself, realising where my behaviour came from etc. It got a hell of a lot worse, before it got better. I went to hell and back at least 3 times lol. I just can't imagine all that, compressed into a few trips!

The reason the original repressed emotion therapy didn't work, was because I wasn't ready for it. I was still self-harming at that point, and this triggered this off to a dangerous level to the point i almost killed myself.

Only after I started to believe in myself, did the DP go.

What frame of mind would you have to be in to do this? I mean, would you have to have at least some positivity and belief in yourself? Is it like a regular trip, that if you go in feeling bad, you're likely to have a 'bad one'?


----------



## Abraxas

Hi Dreamer, thanks for your input. I disagree with some things you said though, i hope you dont mind me commenting on them



Dreamer* said:


> indeed it would be better to experiment with this with organizations who use it for religious purposes, or yeah, go on a vacation -- apparently this is very popular these days. Costly.


It is really not costly. most true shamans do it for free. you just need to pay for your flight and maybe a bag of rice for donation.

Peace
Abraxas


----------



## Guest

violetgirl said:


> In my case, I literally could not remember, I'd blocked it all out. And it turned into self-harm, depression, anxeity etc instead. The DP messed with my memory so much, I could hardly remember anything from my childhood. So there were definite sings that something was wrong, but I never connected the two. My problem was more repressed emotions, I had internalised everything I felt, and could not express it, which is why I self-harmed and got DP.
> It's definitely possibly that people block things out and blame themselves, or act out. You remembered everything, some people, like me, didn't remember a thing. We are all different. Just because you remembered everything, doesn't mean it doesn't happen to other people and that repressed memories don't exist. Everybody has different experiences.
> 
> 'It has been found that many forget' etc. Has been found where? Just because it 'has been found' doesn't make it true. I don't have much faith in psychiatry at the moment, I spent years in and out of doctors offices, and nothing helped me.
> 
> Plus, all this talk of 'studies' etc. I never consulted a psychiatric book, study, anything. And I healed myself.


*Violetgirl,* I always say everyone is unique. It's just that my studies in neurology/psychology, etc., also asking doctors, attending seminars, have led me to believe that IN GENERAL (and I am not alone in this), there is overreporting and over-diagnosis of repressed memories. The height of that occurred during the 1980s when satanic ritual abuse at day care centers in the US suddenly went through the roof -- the major cases which sent many to prison were proven false.

The McMartin PreSchool Case is one famous example. Also a suit at Sheppard Pratt wherein a doctor had created one hundred personalities in a patient. She got sicker and had to be "deprogrammed." Ultimately this is why MPD was changed to DID, and there is a better understanding that this could be associated with BPD/mood dysregulation, etc.

I have no doubt that many DO suppress memories, but it is more complicated than that. Memory is extremely complicated.

And yes, your experience is very different from mine and anyone else's here. No offense intended. And I also was concerned that taking a hallucinogen can play with your mind -- obviously. If one has been gaslighted as I was (that my mother would tell me my feelings weren't real, and that the feelings and intentions of others weren't real; she also claimed my father abused me by "pushing me down in my crib" -- but she said a load of crazy things -- my father was out of the house when she claimed such things happened. She admitted being a liar, etc., found it amusing. This would not be a good drug *for me.*
------------------------------------
*Abraxas,* I just dug out an old book I studied, *The Chemistry of Mind Altering Drugs: History, Pharmacology and Cultural Context* by Daniel M. Perrine ... it is already out of date (1996) but has five excellent pages on a variety of ways to synthesize DMT ... other plants are named and other cultures. You might be interested in it. Some of the chemistry is beyond me (if you've taken High School chem and maybe one level of molecular biology it isn't that big a deal -- the cultural information is fascinating.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
In PubMed I found this interesting article. Bottom line, we're starting from Timothy Leary's experiments with LSD in the 1960s ... hallucinogens are fascinating as they can mimic a lot of mental illnesses -- psychotic episodes, etc. My mother was a psychiatrist in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. Many of the the ER calls that came at 2am in the inpatient ward were the inability of staff to determine if someone was mentally ill or on a rec drug.

This is why I agree that one should experiment with this with the supervision of individuals who know EXACTLY what they're doing.

_*Pharmacol Ther.*_ 2004 May;102(2):111-29.
Clinical investigations of the therapeutic potential of ayahuasca: rationale and regulatory challenges.
McKenna DJ.

Source
Center for Spirituality and Healing, Academic Health Center, University of Minnesota, C592 Mayo Memorial Building, Mayo Mail Code 505, 420 Delaware Street Southeast, Minneapolis, MN 55455, USA. [email protected]
Abstract

"Ayahuasca is a hallucinogenic beverage that is prominent in the ethnomedicine and shamanism of indigenous Amazonian tribes. Its unique pharmacology *depends on the oral activity of the hallucinogen, N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT)*, which results from inhibition of monoamine oxidase (MAO) by beta-carboline alkaloids.

MAO is the enzyme that normally degrades DMT in the liver and gut.

Ayahuasca has long been integrated into mestizo folk medicine in the northwest Amazon. In Brazil, it is used as a sacrament by several syncretic churches. Some of these organizations have incorporated in the United States. The recreational and religious use of ayahuasca in the United States, as well as "ayahuasca tourism" in the Amazon, is increasing.

The current legal status of ayahuasca or its source plants in the United States is unclear, although DMT is a Schedule I controlled substance. One ayahuasca church has received favorable rulings in 2 federal courts in response to its petition to the Department of Justice for the right to use ayahuasca under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act.
*
A biomedical study of one of the churches, the Uñiao do Vegetal (UDV), indicated that ayahuasca may have therapeutic applications for the treatment of alcoholism, substance abuse, and possibly other disorders. Clinical studies conducted in Spain have demonstrated that ayahuasca can be used safely in normal healthy adults, but have done little to clarify its potential therapeutic uses.*

Because of ayahuasca's ill-defined legal status and variable botanical and chemical composition, clinical investigations in the United States, ideally under an approved Investigational New Drug (IND) protocol, are complicated by both regulatory and methodological issues. This article provides an overview of ayahuasca and discusses some of the challenges that must be overcome before it can be clinically investigated in the United States."

PMID:
15163593
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Publication Types, MeSH Terms, Substances
LinkOut - more resources
-------------------------------
YES, everyone is unique. I would simply research this IN DEPTH if one were to experiment with it. Some of the descriptions are that one does "lose one's SELF" in a "pleasant way" and "becomes one with something greater." If I lost my Self ... well, I already feel that is the DP/DR.

And I will say for me. CBT and simply talk therapy/coping has been VERY helpful to me. I have far fewer horrific episodes as I have to a great extent trained my mind to "not freak out" when I have them. I let negative thoughts "pass by." Etc. I have improved considerably over the years from that, but it was kick started with two anti-convulsants. It is when the DP/DR come on STRONG and I can't find anything that set it off I become frightened mainly of being stuck in that state. Life is "relatively bearable" in my chronic state. But I would give everything I have to not be chronically DP/DR.

One day at a time.


----------



## Abraxas

j4mtj said:


> Not having any experience with hallucinogens, but have had terrifying nightmares, is this what a bad trip is like? If so, I wouldn't want to ever put myself into a situation where that would even be a possibility.


with DPD one could say you are already living in a never ending nightmare. In my experience life with DP is the true bad trip.

but yeah... it is likely that you will face those nightmares with ayahuasca. monsters might appear, sick halucinations, evil spirits, you will feel nauseus, paranoid, in a state of full panick, you will confront yourself with death, with mental plastic, with the disease that has been forced on your mind by this sick sick society, you will feel fucking insane, you will vomit your fucking guts out, you will see the devil, you will feel like the lowest worm, the coward that you are, you will know that reality is darkness, pure chaos, non-sense, disease, corruption, you will see the true Nightmare that is to be alive and to be sick and insane, to be trapped in matter, in your grotesque body, you will be paralyzed by overwhelming fear.
and _then_, when you have nothing else to lose, when you have hit rock bottom and are hopeless... then you might make a leap of faith, you might switch from being the coward, to being the hero, at least once in your lifetime, you will find courage inside you. you might find courage to surrender to the Universe, to let yourself go, to surrender to that which is above you. and suddenly you might find order within that chaos, you might find redemption, humility. You might find love. You might find your Self. and through the looking-glass of love, you will see that where you thought there was darkness, there was always light, were you saw chaos, there was always order, were you saw meaninglessness, there was always Intention, where you saw uglyness there was always beauty. And the nightmare will turn into the sweetest of dreams, and you would have regained your lost soul. 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
note: if you have suffered abuse as a child, i guess replace 'coward' by 'victim'. I know in these cases it must be harder and tougher. But my advice is to try let go of identification with the victim, and try to heal yourself with self love. easier said than done though, but it must be possible.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

then the coward-hero duality will be gone, you will find a compromise. but with DPD you are truly the coward, and you need the hero to get you out of that pathetic state.

of course, maybe you never get to do this leap. maybe by taking ayahuasca you descend into the deepest hell and never come out of it. 
or maybe you experience no darkness and go straight into heaven,without having to go through the purgatory.

in my view, any of these three possibilities is better than staying with DPD for life. if you descend into a lower hell, then well.. at least you gave it a go and faced that darkness, at least you gave your best, you didnt fall without a fight.

of course, there are other therapies and healing tools, and i guess many people here recovered from DPD without ayahuasca. this is just my story. ayahuasca is for those who want to grab the bull by its horns. you want to find the root of your disease? then ayahausca is for you. it will take you there, one way ticket. what you do once you get there, its up to you.







hehe this is perfect for a movie! 'The hero descends into darkness and faces his Shadow... One sacred vine. One trip. One chance. Will he rescue his Soul?! Coming soon!









hehe what i mean, and sorry for the drama... is that wether it is with ayahuasca, or with any other healing tool, or crucial desicions, like accepting your sexuality, or simply accepting yourself... you should really try to stop postponing these changes. you should really try to face the matter at hands and cultivate your will so that you get out of the hole that is DPD once and for all. there is no magic solution, no one is going to rescue your self other than you. you have to be your own hero. stop looking out there, and take a chance. make desicions. make changes. try to gather your mind, to pull your shit together, to pierce through the mental fog and to focus. you have to *focus*. No one is going to wake you up from this nightmare other than yourself. *trust yourself*. have faith. you are the hero of your story. Go for it. Go after your soul. Fight for it. Fight for your health. Fight for your right to be, and to be happy and at ease. Fuck DPD, fuck disease. Get your shit together and give it a good fight. There is *nothing* that your will can not achieve, there is no obstacle your will can not overcome. Cultivate your willpower. Will is all. Will drives the dream. Take the wheel.

One Dream. One wheel. Will she take it? Coming soon!
















anyway, i d like to kind of apologize, i tend to get out the more rough side of me but i genuinely just want to help... and in my experience, sometimes its good to really toughen up to be able to take control of the situation. complaining and feeling down is not going to do anything for you. stop identifying with the coward and be your own hero. you can do it. I believe in all of you. In you there is a light that knows the way. trust that light, trust that instinct. follow your instincts. what feels right for you? there is an inner wisdom that already knows how to go through this. Let go of fears. Love is the light. Faith is the road. Trust life. Trust your story. Trust the plot. Be yourself, accept yourself, love yourself. Be patient, persevere. If you fall down you get up again and keep walking. Because you know, deep down, that the light is at the other end. Dont be afraid to go where you think that light is. There is no offense taken by anyone if you decide to leave DPD behind, to leave suffering behind. Just make that leap of faith. let go of the past and embrace a new beginning. who do you want to be? be that person, and simply dont look down, your shadow will always walk by your side. the larger you become, the larger your shadow. but it is just your shadow, it can not hurt you nor stop you, it just tricks you into identifying with it, with those fears, with that negative self-view.

anyway, to sum up i believe recovering from DPD is about re-discovering the inner child, the true Self. Is about regaining your original innocence, is about finding your inner light, and about letting go of the fear of that light's shadow. you fear your own greatness, your own brightness, because it casts a shadow. and you look at that shadow and you become obsessed with it, and soon you forget the light which is casting it in the first place. and when you find refuge in that light, nothing can move you, you are like a lotus flower in a swamp, un-touched by its currents. to find refuge in Self is true enlightenment. To be the Child is to be enlightened.

Much love,
Abraxas


----------



## Guest

> I really think you're trivialising trauma/ abuse here. It's not as simple as confronting memories and letting them go.


I also agree with violetgirl on this statement. And if you want to consider extreme trauma look at military personnel with PTSD who commit suicide as they cannot tolerate their symptoms. The US has lost a frightening number of Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans to suicide. The statistics are staggering.

Also, when someone talks of abuse or trauma, one isn't talking about having a bad drug trip, one is talking about years of being verbally or physically abused and how that damages coping mechanisms.

Think of animals that are abused. Many dogs that are up for adoption must be put down. If you beat, scream at, neglect a dog for enough time it will become submissive, or terrified ... military dogs get PTSD. (Check the Military Service Dog Registry), etc.


----------



## violetgirl

Dreamer* said:


> I also agree with violetgirl on this statement. And if you want to consider extreme trauma look at military personnel with PTSD who commit suicide as they cannot tolerate their symptoms. The US has lost a frightening number of Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans to suicide. The statistics are staggering.
> 
> Also, when someone talks of abuse or trauma, one isn't talking about having a bad drug trip, one is talking about years of being verbally or physically abused and how that damages coping mechanisms.
> 
> Think of animals that are abused. Many dogs that are up for adoption must be put down. If you beat, scream at, neglect a dog for enough time it will become submissive, or terrified ... military dogs get PTSD. (Check the Military Service Dog Registry), etc.


I think if you went into it with a strong head, knowing what you might see, that could prepare you for it.

With me, the DPD numbed me and made me forget a lot of things, which i was nowhere near ready to see or feel. I had been self-harming since the age of 12, it was all i knew. I will say, what happened made me feel amazing for a while, just letting go and crying out all the emotions was amazing. But, the emotional aftermath was intense, and i could not handle it so i ended up with psychosis. In all fairness, i was heading that way anyways, and this pushed me over the edge. Plus my self-harming tendencies took over and nearly killed me. So that was a really dangerous and stupid thing for me to have done, considering my self-harm, which is why the therapist was so irresponsible.

Maybe I was too quick to judge. As soon as I see someone saying about facing your memories/ emotions head on like that, it just takes me back to my horrendous experience. But i had loads of problems besides the DPD, my case was extreme.

I guess if you feel ready, like Abraxas did, it couldn't hurt to try? Maybe if you don't have underlying tendencies to psychosis, or self-destruction, it could be ok to do?


----------



## violetgirl

j4mtj said:


> Thanks, yes I know this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is what its all about, no matter how we recover from DP.


That's pretty much it,
I stripped my personality down, got rid of as much crap as I could, then started to rebuild myself, the DP just went. It wasn't an easy process, I went throguh a very scary time of now knowing who I was,, worse than when I had DP. It felt like i was being reborn.


----------



## Guest

Abraxas said:


> with DPD one could say you are already living in a never ending nightmare. In my experience life with DP is the true bad trip.


that's what's up. there's nothing to lose in DP.


----------



## = n

Dreamer* said:


> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/
> 
> There is a tremendous amount of scientific research on Ayahuasca at Pubmed. I suggest anyone considering this to look at the articles. Just go to PubMed and plug in the word.
> 
> It would seem that this is indeed DMT. It is stated that "healthy individuals" find various states of enlightenment or enjoyment. The reaction to those with existing emotional disorders/mental health disorders is still being studied.
> 
> I avoided ALL recreational drugs including pot since I was young as I thought, "I have already come with an altered state of consciousness, sometimes so terrifying, I can't understand why someone would wish to experience something like it."
> 
> Also, we know everyone reacts differently to ALL medications, and that includes pain relievers like Aspirin.
> 
> I am also skeptical of repressed memories save in extremely serious cases of abuse. I was abused and I recall everything. It has been found that many don't FORGET but simply don't wish to speak of it. And I would think a hallucinogen could make one hallucinate something that never happened. Therapists have been sued for creating false memories. Many studies have been done on this. Also, memory is a completely separate field of study.(See long term studies by Elizabeth Loftus at U. of Washington).
> 
> Someone else stated they were on an MAOI with this drug -- that is apparently a fatal combination. Ayahuasca/DMT increases blood pressure. If you take the two together you could have a stroke. The same is true with St. John's Wort. People forget that many existing medications of all kinds ARE created from natural sources. This is nothing new. My anti-cancer pill was created from the bark of a tree -- chemical variations and synthesis of the original product! Doesn't mean it can have dangerous side effects, but I have no choice re: taking it.
> 
> EDIT: Also, forgot to say, that I was on 3 separate MAOI inhibitors. You cannot eat things that are fermented as that will increase your blood pressure to dangerous levels. This is true (per a few articles I just read of those using it in South America) -- you should avoid cheese, wine, fava beans! ... I remember having a very restricted diet. But the MAOI gave me very LOW blood pressure on standing and I would faint. Couldn't stay on it. Did nothing for any of my symptoms -- depression, anxiety or DP/DR.
> 
> Anyone experimenting with this SHOULD be supervised. And this purging is vomiting and diarreah SP! The benefit would be for LOCAL people who have parasites from poor sanitation. A healthy individual from a Western country wouldn't have these parasites. It apparently serves a number of medicinal purposes other than in religious ceremonies.
> 
> In some studies it indicates some have a "pleasant" experience a more "religious" experience, while some experience panic and dysphoria. <--- DP/DR are dysphoric. They aren't specific about that definition, but you feel "odd" and "uncomfortable" with that oddness.
> 
> I have never seen a study indicating this would help DP/DR which in and of itself is a perceptual distortion.
> 
> *Again WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT. Personally I wouldn't touch this anymore than I would smoke weed. I don't even smoke cigarettes (I suppose it was lucky I also had asthma as a child.)
> 
> At any rate, if you want a TON of studies on this that are scientifically based go to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/ and plug in the word. I think you can make more informed decisions by also studying those articles. *
> 
> Researchers still do not know if DP from abuse, or even those who have DP _*without abuse or drugs*_ should be treated in the same manner medically or not.
> 
> I do understand wanting to try anything and everything to get rid of DP/DR. I have experimented with so many Rx meds. Since I am better than I was 20 years ago, I don't want to rock the boat. If I went back to the way I felt as a teen, I would again wish to die. It has been THAT bad. I have been completely unable to function at certain times.
> 
> Good luck to anyone trying this. It could help some, but I'd think it could cause a catastrophe with some people here. And if some individuals have diagnoses of schizophrenia, bipolar, OCD ... many things ... panic clearly ... I would be very cautious. IMHO. And one should be clean of ALL OTHER DRUGS, Rec and Rx. AND should follow instructions re: diet ... indeed it would be better to experiment with this with organizations who use it for religious purposes, or yeah, go on a vacation -- apparently this is very popular these days. Costly.


Thanks for your input Dreamer, this is precisely the kind of research i would certainly do before going on a trip to, or in, the jungle.

I expect we can all agree, ayahuasca isn't for everyone, we all have our own trips to make towards recovery. But perhaps, it _might_ be a positive step for some of us at a certain stage. Abraxas account of ayahuasca helping his recovery seems plausible to me. I'll really consider this- though it is scary!


----------



## Abraxas

= n said:


> Abraxas account of ayahuasca helping his recovery seems plausible to me. I'll really consider this- though it is scary!


hey, ayahuasca can be scary sometimes, but just to make clear i was exaggerating this on my other post, idea was to make the point that even if ayahuasca shows you hell, ie you enter a panick attack with hallucinations, it could still prove to be something good.. you could make an important change in that state, a leap of faith, you may find courage there and begin to face your fears. of course, ayahuasca will show you things that you might rather not see, but sometimes this is necesary for the healing process, one has to face these inner demons.


----------



## Guest

Well after all this, I have learned more about the use of hallucinogens, however, I swear to you, though this might help someone else, I would not risk the progress I've made in well, my 52 years of life.

But, I Googled retreats. Here's one in Peru. Interesting is it mentions a 12 Step Program, and as noted in other articles I've skimmed, there seems to be a desire for individuals to come for addiction problems.

http://www.ayahuascaretreats.org/index.htm

But whatever works. Go for it.


----------



## Pablo

I have been thinking about doing this , maybe a trip to Peru would be good but the problem is doing it many times as I wouldn't be able to afford repeated trips so I'm not sure a one off trip would be enough. I guess to get the most out of it you have to be prepared to go insane or even die so I have to decide if I'm at that point yet.


----------



## Abraxas

Dreamer* said:


> I have been thinking about doing this , maybe a trip to Peru would be good but the problem is doing it many times as I wouldn't be able to afford repeated trips so I'm not sure a one off trip would be enough. I guess to get the most out of it you have to be prepared to go insane or even die so I have to decide if I'm at that point yet.


hey man.. i think ideally you would stay for about one month in nature, and maybe take at least 5 healing ceremonies with ayahuasca (nine would be better). In my opinion that experience will be enough to get rid of DPD for good. By the second ceremony most of your symptoms should be gone. the rest will be to really get to the root of all your dis-ease, to really find your inner self, to make sure you dont have a relapse.
I really doubt you will go insane, people with DPD have a very strong mind, that is why it never progresses on to schizophrenia/psychosis. And dying is really out of the question. though some people are confronted by some kind of spiritual death, nobody ever dies (physically). There was only *one* case of a very old woman who was diabetic and proper died during one ceremony. But trust me, you wont die with ayahuasca. Your mental parasites will die.


----------



## Surfingisfun001

Pablo said:


> I have been thinking about doing this , maybe a trip to Peru would be good but the problem is doing it many times as I wouldn't be able to afford repeated trips so I'm not sure a one off trip would be enough. I guess to get the most out of it you have to be prepared to go insane or even die so I have to decide if I'm at that point yet.


If you seriously consider going and would like a traveling partner let me know as this is something I am seriously considering.


----------



## Guest

I don't think the people with DPD is anywhere near the way of going crazy. I know I been to extreme cases of DP/Anxiety, and I'm still here, not only functioning, but being more productive than I was BEFORE having a panic attack, making money, doing things I want to do, being totally myself, even when I feel I'm not.

my "performance" in life hasn't decreased 1% from DP. (only in one area, and I guess that's what can be connected to DP).

so, I guarantee that nobody having DP will go crazy. If you smoke something, or do Ayahuasca (I don't have any knowledge about it), the worst thing that can happen is to experience an attack (which is of course terrible), but I don't think you should fear of doing permanent damage.

And there's no "spiritual death" / "ego death" that is not intentional. So fearing it is a false fear also. You can only experience ego death by your conscious, free will, and you can always go back to anything you ever been. There's no "personality dying", it only feels like it.


----------



## Pablo

What do you think would happen if you took Ayahuasca and then resisted the experience and never let go into it? I ask because that was the problem when I took ecstasy I couldn't help but try to control the experience out of fear of being too vulnerable and undefended rather than relax into it, so do you think the Ayahuasca would be so powerful to override any attempts of your mind to control it ?


----------



## Abraxas

Lowrey said:


> What do you think would happen if you took Ayahuasca and then resisted the experience and never let go into it? I ask because that was the problem when I took ecstasy I couldn't help but try to control the experience out of fear of being too vulnerable and undefended rather than relax into it, so do you think the Ayahuasca would be so powerful to override any attempts of your mind to control it ?


I think life is so powerful that it will eventually override your mind's attempt to control it. Maybe DPD is a result of you trying to be in control of everything. Maybe it is good that you lose control.

But well, if this is a worry for you, then, there are ways in which you can reduce the chances of a paralyzing panic attack. Best to take it with few people, in an open space, at night. It is really good if you are free to walk around the 'temple', go into the woods, if you feel like being alone (this is a must for me when i purge, i really really dont want anyone to be around me). anyway, there are some other important things that i can share with you, if you are really interested in taking ayahuasca, we can start a private conversation and i will do my best to get you psychologically prepared for it.

peace


----------



## Guest

Pablo said:


> What do you think would happen if you took Ayahuasca and then resisted the experience and never let go into it? I ask because that was the problem when I took ecstasy I couldn't help but try to control the experience out of fear of being too vulnerable and undefended rather than relax into it, so do you think the Ayahuasca would be so powerful to override any attempts of your mind to control it ?


if I think about my battle with against panic attacks, the main thing is courage, fearlessness and to understand that you can not get hurt in any way during these things like panic/dp. DOES NOT MATTER HOW INTENSIVE THEY ARE. I had faith in this, I didn't fear to go into a panic attack, deeply, facing it. And that was my last one.

So I mean it may be the same with X and Aya.

When I had this experience with herbal stuff (about 5x stronger than weed), it just confirmed it. It was extreme, and still I didn't get hurt.


----------



## gill

Anyone who considers taking this should realize they're taking a risk. I used to believe psychedelic drugs were harmless. That was until 6 years ago when I developed HPPD. Just saying, if someone already has DP, then your nerves have already been over-simulated. Maybe try a light serotonin booster first, like 5-htp , my two cents....


----------



## Abraxas

gill said:


> Anyone who considers taking this should realize they're taking a risk. I used to believe psychedelic drugs were harmless. That was until 6 years ago when I developed HPPD. Just saying, if someone already has DP, then your nerves have already been over-simulated. Maybe try a light serotonin booster first, like 5-htp , my two cents....


its true, psychedelic drugs are not harmless.. I got my DPD from psychedelics. But well, in my experience Ayahuasca is not like the others. First of all it is natural, ie it comes from nature, its not synthetic like LSD, ecstacy, etc. Also, DMT is naturally produced in our brain by the pineal gland, so it is not foreign to our body, making it an even natural psychedelic. 
but yeah, ayahuasca will give you quite a ride, if you have never experienced with psychedelics and are not used to altered states of consciousness it will be very very intense. still think it would be good. but obviously, there are risks, i can not tell you 100% that it will heal you, it just healed me.
but again, i also think there are risks when you take SSRI's or any other 'legal' drugs. And these drugs are also psychedelic in the sense that they alter your mind-state, they play with your brain chemistry. Another advantage of Ayahuasca is that you dont need to take it regularly like most psychiatric medications (which have side-reactions, withdrawal issues, tolerance, etc), you just need to take a couple of ceremonies.

and again, of course there is a risk, but ayahuasca is not just a risk, it is a medicine, with risks. because when you say it like this, it sounds like there is nothing that you could gain, and a lot that you could lose, when this is actually the opposite with ayahuasca. you have nothing to lose becasue DPD is hell already, and you have a lot to gain because it could solve your DPD, you could find yourself again. but anyway, i respect your view.

I insist, this is a powerful substance, there are no guarantees, and it has risks. but in my view this is no different than any other medicine or intervention, there are always risks. nothing is 100% fool-proof, and if you re waiting for some scientist to find the exact neuron that has gone wrong in DPD, which can be corrected by a simple, no-side-effects, risk-free pill.. then... good luck with that. Of course, if *you just got DPD*, i dont think ayahuasca is for you. But if you had it for more than two/three years... and no conventional therapy/medicine has worked for you... maybe its time to do something radical... maybe ayahuasca really is what you are looking for.


----------



## Guest

Abraxas said:


> Yeah, Ayahuasca is used legally in Brazil and in Holland to treat alcoholism and drug addictions. Stuff like this shines light onto the fact that Ayahuasca isnt just a drug, it is really medicine. It is non-addictive, non-toxic (neither to the body nor brain), and you build up no tolerance to it. It is really a gift from Mother Earth, and the indigenous people of South America have known this for millenia.
> 
> I really doubt you will go insane, people with DPD have a very strong mind, that is why it never progresses on to schizophrenia/psychosis. And dying is really out of the question. though some people are confronted by some kind of spiritual death, nobody ever dies (physically). There was only *one* case of a very old woman who was diabetic and proper died during one ceremony. But trust me, you wont die with ayahuasca. Your mental parasites will die.


I have to debate these points and can get articles from Pubmed. And again, this is because I feel very sus about this. I will say, if my cancer came back and I had absolutely NOTHING to lose, maybe something like this would be on my bucket list. And I'll say, in the future, these hallucinogens will be further considered in the treatment of psychiatric illnesses, or in the UNDERSTANDING of psychotic illnesses.

1. *Drug and Medicine are the same word. * As noted, most psychiatric meds and many other drugs for a zillion different illnesses have been SYNTHESIZED from natural discoveries in nature. Molecular configuration of everything on this earth has many similarities. Classes of "RX Drugs" or "RX Medicine" still fall into the main categories of *Hallucinogen, Stimulants, Anti-Psychotics, and Depressants -- rec or otherwise -- say Ketamine, a dissociative is used in anesthesiology.* Ayahuasca is a hallucinogen as is LSD, Psylocibin, , Mesclaline, and even Atropine (used in eye drops I believe).

The difference between Rx and Rec drugs is, an Rx drug's purpose is to TREAT a specific medical condition -- and that doesn't mean it will work, it can have negative side effects, but in the main improves quality of life. It is regulated and has been scientifically researched on both animals and humans. It is controlled by legal standards of preparation. For instance, if you buy weed or LSD or X on the street, you don't really know what you're getting. Cocaine can be cut with flour. If there is a STANDARD in certain countries, which I have noted is being discussed, and as you noted has been legalized in the Netherlands, etc. -- yes, that's great. It's like weed being accepted as being seen as a means of pain control and is legalized.

If you look at pot though, in the main, most people use it for recreation as they do alcohol. Alcohol is a DRUG, and was used as a medicine in the past ... for amputations in wars, and is also an anticeptic. Nowadays, you don't want to perform surgery by giving a patient alcohol.

*All of the RX drugs we use have improved on nature is all.*

*Also, a side note on anesthesia. My anesthesiologist for my mastectomy knew I had a risk of further dissociation, DP/DR from the anesthesia, and said, "We will take care of you if this happens." He also said, "What we use now is even different from what we used last year. We have patients with schizoprhenia going into surgery who do very well."*

*Everything on this Earth is indeed from this Earth. There is nothing that isn't made of certain chemical configurations that exist in plants, animals, etc., etc.*

2. *Several articles indicated it is not known when these ceremonies and the medicinal use of Ayahuasca was first used. One can guess.* The Amazon has plants you wouldn't find in the US or Africa or Europe or Asia, etc. Each area of the earth has medicinal plants, etc. But yes, we know that ancient civilations from thousands of years ago used various forms of drugs/medicines to either treat illness, or to obtain "spiritual enlightenment."

3. *If one has a PREDISPOSITION to develop a psychotic disorder, studies show that taking rec drugs can precipitate a first episode. ESPECIALLY IN YOUNG PEOPLE AT THE AGE WHEN THESE BREAKS ARE MOST COMMON.* This is noted in Britain with Skunk, particularly when the combo of THC and cannabinoids? are not in the right combination. One makes you very happy, the other causes psychotic reactions, even in mentally healthy individuals who have been screened in tests.

As I said, this stuff could be on my bucket list. But it would be if I knew I were dying, or were so miserable I couldn't live anymore. I have IMPROVED over the years. I have been suicidal but I am not right now. It also could be helpful to some, I can't answer that. I would not try it as I feel strongly it would make me worse -- and that includes weed. I wouldn't take any mind-altering substance that I haven't discussed with a doctor about, have been observed while taking (regular visits, etc.)

*Again that is my choice. And everyone is different. That's why I said Aspirin is a drug it is a medicine, but some people can get a horrible allergic reaction to it. It is known children should avoid aspirin as it can cause Reyes Syndrome? Forgot. And that is a simple compound. EVERYONE IS UNIQUE IN THEIR RESPONSE TO ANY MEDICATION OR DRUG. Alcohol and weed are considered both medicinal (wine is found to be an antioxidants, helpful for the heart) and recreational, and they can be abused.*


----------



## Guest

Had to just add this.

My real vice that makes me more DP, more anxious sometimes, and makes my heart race sometimes..... coffee. I drink no other source of caffeine. I don't drink soda (Coke -- which actually when first manufactured HAD COCAINE in it, why it's called COKE!) -- Coca Cola. And chocolate is being considered medicinal/a drug as it has anti-oxidant properties. But if you eat too much chocolate well, you get obese!
Also, if I drink an excess of alcohol -- one gin and tonic say, my DP/DR FLY threw the roof. Haven't had hard liquor in years. Both drugs and medicines.

But I drink coffee -- 2 cups in the am. I LOVE GOOD COFFEE. I DON'T NEED IT. It is "medicinal" that is it is a stimulant. It is made from a bean. Most people don't need to drink coffee. In a sense it recreational, but the stimulant effect could be considered medicinal.*My one vice which does make me more jumpy (increases anxiety) is caffeine).*

I don't know how to give a better example of a "natural drug" than coffee. It is medicine, it is a drug. It is a stimulant.

It comes under the category of ... don't quote me ... Methylanthines sp? Damn, I wish I were a research scientist in neurology. This stuff is fascinating, but I have a shitty memory.


----------



## Abraxas

What point are you trying to make? that thousands of years of experience and health benefits with the use of ayahuasca by indigenous people do not compare to western 'scientific' tests done with say, an SSRI, which have been around for what, 30 years? that SSRI's are 'safer' because they have been studied by western scientists on animals and humans, in a 'controlled' way? In the same way that say, Prozac was supposed to be so good in curing depression (as these scientific studies had shown), making it the first blockbuster drug in the world... but recently new studies show that it has no benefit over a placebo? Do you really think these scientific studies are controlled and un-biased? the only interest in western medicine is money. They design some fucked up molecule (which *is not * found in nature), test it on a couple of rats, then a few humans, manipulate the statistics and make it look like it works. Maybe it does, but many times it doesnt. On the other hand, here you have a thousands year old culture which has been using Ayahuasca for healing purposes for millenia, but somehow this is just 'anecdotal' in the eyes of the western scientist, as no 'controlled' scientific studies have been done on it. Of course, they dont do these studies, as there is no money involved in medicine that grows naturally.

Really, in my view western science is ridiculous, specially when it is applied to health. and even so when it is applied to mental health. They try to be objective when objectivity is simply impossible, as one can not deny the subject that is observing the object in the first place. DPD is a problem with the subject, not the object. You will spend aeons trying to find a neuron/neurotransmitter gone wrong in DPD. DPD has no rational cause, as subject is irrational. May i suggest, by reading your posts i see that you are very fond on the scientific approach, may i suggest that this compulsive holding on to rationality might be what is preventing you in achieving full recovery. really, when you look at the philosophy of science you start realizing that it is built on axioms which are simply untrue, or incomplete. rationality is what keeps us imprisioned and away from our feelings, from our inner life, from our self. DPD is the 'triumph' of the rational mind over the soul.

Anyway, whats Rec? recreational? If so, i dont think ayahuasca is Rec. I dont think it is something you would take just to trip/have fun, like LSD, ketamine, X, etc. It is medicine. The fact that it hasnt been studied by western science does not mean it is not medicine and that is does not improve quality of life.
Also, drug is not the same word as medicine. Some drugs are not medicine. While crack/heroin are drugs, they are not medicine. Ayahuasca is both a drug and medicine. SSRI's, antipsychotics, benzos, etc, are drugs, and well, in my view not really medicine. Medicine for me is something that solves the root of the problem. Western drugs just mask the root by relieving the symptoms, and keep us hooked into buying them. 'All of the RX drugs we use have improved on nature is all' .... that statment is untrue. I dont see any improvement, i think we used to be much more healthy when we were in communion with nature and used its plants/herbs to heal ourselves. Pills are fake and will not heal you, because those who designed it did not intend them for that purpose, because they are part of the very same system (belief-system) that is making us ill, ie: Rationality, science, reductionism, causalism, determinism.

Ayahuasca is the product of something irrational: Nature. when you take ayahuasca, you feel the spirit of the earth. you see primordial images, you remember your roots. You stop seeing with the mind and start seeing with the heart. It awakens you to that which is beyond rationality. we all fear the irrational. but sometimes too much rationality results in repression, in isolation, in paranoia, in emptiness, in DPD. Ayahuasca or not, my view is that anyone wishing to recover from DPD will have to deep their toes into the ocean of the Irrational. Of couse, you might go insane, but i think nobody here will, just because of everyone's firm grip in rationality. There is no need in abandoning the rational mind, but one has to find a balance. So, at one end, you have pure Rationality resulting in DPD, at the other end you have pure Irrationality resulting in madness. Both extremes result in disease. Its up to you to find a balance.


----------



## Guest

We agreed to disagree some time back, I'm just interested in science, I always have. My parents were doctors, my mother was a psychiatrist. I am also not a person of Faith. My mother was an atheist.

What I am is a product of both my Nature and by my Environment and I don't have to apologize for it.

I tried to explain Rec means recreational -- taken for a purpose no other than to get high. And certain cultures take certain drugs to find enlightenment, and enhance connection to the spiritual. In those cases, you can't describe drugs taken for these purposes as medicinal, but they are still drugs. Using LSD to find "the doors of perception" is not required for survival. It is a choice. The same could be said for having a spiritual experience on Ketamine, etc.

Of course heroin is not MEDICINAL, but many people *self-medicate* to ease problems, so the drug is not prescribed. *I was making a point that things existing in nature have ALWAYS been used for various purposes ... recreational use, medicine, and for spiritual enlightenment. And it has been found that certain substances Rx and Rec, need to be controlled -- that would be weed and alcohol mainly now for example. Or benzos. And other meds interact poorly with others or with diet. As noted, because both Ayahuasca and MAOIs can cause serious problems if taken together -- can cause fatal rise in blood pressure, and a diet must be observed when taking BOTH ... Ayahuasca is not going to have that on the label. You DO need a shaman to guide you in its use. It can be deadly, and damaging as any other DRUG. I can't write a thesis paper, I'm typing fast and can't correct every sentence.*

I believe this experience could be very beneficial. But regardless, you and I disagree on the nature of what DP is. Even I suppose on what the nature of brain disorders are.

I am having fun researching. I love learning.

Also, I have a friend who is trained in Western medicine, M.D., but who practices both Eastern and Western medicine. I was a practice pin cushion for him when he was learning acupuncture. We talked for a long time about if acupuncture could help my DP/DR, depression, anxiety. In his later years of experience, all he is using it for is pain control. He has had no luck using it for other purposes. He as a member of whatever society of Eastern Medicines there are.

I would not claim that ANY drug on the face of the Earth can cure everything. And that is true of any of the four main classes of PSYCHOACTIVE drugs.

In those classes of drugs are:

1. Rx meds that are regulated and that will list all the side effects you could have, and what NOT to take with them. Ayahuasca ONE DAY may very well be used worldwide for many purposes. AT THIS TIME, I AM CONCERNED ABOUT ITS USE IN INDIVIDUALS W/DP/DR, and many here are self-diagnosed. They could have other problems (as I do such as clinical depression.)

*EDIT:* 2. Purely recreational, serving no really purpose, you don't need heroin, you don't need X, ,but they are DRUGS, and I would see them as *self-medication -- frequently self-medication of mental illness -- "Dual Diagnosis"* and they are drugs that are addicting and destroy one's life.

3. Some drugs are both Recreational and Medicinal. I believe one needs to know what one is dealing with before you dive into anything.

Ayahuasca, like many other drugs/medicines has certainly existed as long as all of the other classes of drugs we have. And I could post a pie-chart of these drugs from my Chem book. But I am not a chemist.

*I guess, what is difficult for me, is you make this sound so easy. If it worked for you that is great. But in researching it, I find it dangerous for me, and am concerned about others here. I am providing studies done that even anthropologists would do -- and have done with these tribes.*

I'm trying to back up my statements with research.
*Ayahuasca would not have been made legal in the Netherlands, and allowed in certain churches (see another article up higher) had they not been observed and tested. The Netherlands may be liberal re: drugs, but it is a Western country that wanted to look further into a substance before legalizing it.* Note in many articles, researchers observe the population that uses Ayahuasca over time. Children and adults. You're correct, it doesn't seem to be addicting (see articles on PubMed), it seems like a promising drug for certain purposes right now (addiction is one), and we also know it IS used primarily for this spiritual cleansing. *But hallucinogens are used by many people -- many young people -- and many come to this Board with DP because of using hallucinogens, or simply using pot. You yourself said hallucinogen gave you DP ... you were lucky taking it again got you out of it.*

Seeing as I had this come on at an extremely early age, I would not care to mess with it anymore other than the therapy I am in, the CBT I work on. Lifestyle, etc.

Risk/benefit, for all of us.

*Do what works. I guess that is all that matters.*
I'll stop posting about it.
S'OK. I've had fun researching it.
It's on my bucket list. I don't think you are understanding my point. All *Psychoactive* medicines/drugs are offshoots and crossover of other of the four classes of drugs. Anti-psychotics are truly no different from those marketed 50 years ago, and that irritates me.

And please don't tell me antidepressants are placebos as I am on one and I need it. Many would be dead without them.

*Also, I personally would rather have my medication (recreational, spiritual, or Rx) produced in a laboratory and regulated vs. cooked up in someone's basement. I would also be less likely to try something in Peru. I have BEEN to Peru myself and years back, as today, you have to be careful about the water in an upscale hotel.*

*NO ONE knows/understands how the brain works. It is extremely complex. And using drugs/medicines on the brain bring unknown results as well. ANY DRUG -- long or short term. Medicinal/Recreational/Spiritual -- however you wish to define it.*

Peace.
Sandy


----------



## Abraxas

hi Dreamer..

sorry if i keep arguing back, but:

i insist, holding a materialistic belief system, in which you believe object (matter/brain) creates subject (self), may well be one of the root causes of your DP. Science is so limiting, as you close yourself to emotions and mindstates and experiences that could never be explained by mere neurochemistry. And that view is reflected on your claim 'I am not a person of Faith'. how do you expect getting through DP without faith? I think it *is* a test of faith. Still you hold on to materialism and hope for some pill to 'correct' your brain chemistry, as if Subject had anything to do with chemistry or physics. And you justify your view by claiming it to be heredited from parents/environment. Well, you are never too late when it comes to correcting your world-view. After all, world-view is what defines subjective experience of Self. If your Self-view is gone wrong (DP), then maybe its time to let go of pre-conceived notions of what reality is. If you like science so much (I do as well), may i suggest reading some books on Philosophy of Science. Cause sometimes we take it for granted, without knowing what are the axioms and premises science is built upon, and what kind of knowledge can and could ever be derived from the scientific method.

About ayahuasca:

Again, i feel you are simply fearmongering _'It can be deadly'_. No, it cant. I mentioned many times before that there are no reports of people dying with ayahuasca (exept for that elderly woman who had diabetes). Of corse, you have to take precautions with your diet, but its really not that dangerous.

Ayahuasca is not Acupuncture, neither it is a form of Eastern medicine, as it is from South America.

You say you are providing studies to back your arguments... i dont see them. Id love to though, i am interested in them. I ll look some up and post as well. I ve seen a couple about ayahuasca being used for alcoholism and depression.

I really doubt that we have 'improved on nature' when it comes to medicine. I think pills will never heal someone as they are part of the same system (socio,polito,economical and beleif- system) that is making everyone ill.

Also, ayahuasca is boiled for many many hours, so i dont think it would have any harmful bacteria. And it is definitely not cooked in 'someones basement'. It is cooked in the jungle, in the middle of nature, open air, away from machines and disease.

But well, it is clear that you dont want to take ayahuasca, and have many reasons for it. I respect that. But you seem to be trying to hold everyone back on this just because you yourself are weary to try it.

I think ayahuasca is the perfect option for those struggling with DP for many years, who have not had good progress with medication and therapies. Maybe for these cases, where the materialistic world-view is not doing much to end this pain, it is wise to look into the other side of the reality coin: spirituality. Ayahuasca is the gate to this world. that is my view, and i am done discussing it, as i have no need to defend Ayahuasca or the south american natives. i ve gone weary of this forum too, i d like to help but i realize that this is not possible, as everyone needs to fight their own fight, and find their selves on their own. I think my job here is done, making people know that the vine of the dead exists, and that it cured my DPD.

So anyway, it was really nice meeting some people here, i ve made a few friends. I might post a couple more times if needed, and then ananyone wishing to contact me, this is my email abraxas17 at hotmail dot com.

Peace & love
Abraxas


----------



## Jayden

How does Ayahuasca treat DP? (I'm not being a dick, I'm actually interested)

Is it a hallucinogenic? cause if it is then I wouldn't touch that shit with a 10 foot poll.


----------



## Guest

Abraxas, 
I am not a fear monger. And I hate to say this but science has existed for as long as these tribes have.

I made a point in another section, in light of this discussion, that there are limited number of elements on earth as delineated by the periodic table. What's there, that's it. Everything MADE on this Earth is already here. It would seem we have messed with radioactive materials, but if you look at the periodic table, no matter what H20 is hydrogen and oxygen. Two of a whole series of elements. That's all ANYONE has to work with.

These elements AS WHAT MAKE US UP are all a part of the Earth, and the universe, unless someone finds out otherwise.

Any drug that exits comes from nature. Human beings come from nature. I have posted a link to PubMed re: the scientific articles on this drug, and I have posted some. I'd be here all night if I didn't give links, vs. writing every bit (of the little I understand about chemistry.)

And what in the world does this have to do with being materialistic? I have no clue where that came from.

Here is a pie chart of the four psychoactive drug classes. It is FINITE. It is based on existing elements in nature.










*Here is the periodic table of elements -- Ayahuasca is made up of these elements. Prescription drugs are made of these elements. There is no "magic" in an indigenous tribe's DRUGS. I think what is important is the work DONE in the ceremony, which would be the equivalent to therapy.*

Periodic Table:










You still somehow indicate that I am resisting getting better as I believe in looking at something scientifically. Well, how do you explain individuals all over the world who are from different cultures, with different beliefs who have DP/DR and other mental illnesses. Again, if you read Dr. Sierra's book, this seems to occur (CHRONIC DP/DR) in @1-2% of the world's population. One in four individuals in this WORLD is affected at some time with a mental disorder. Anxiety, Post-partum depression, psychosis, dementia, tourette's, etc, etc, etc.

This is merely a debate. I don't know why it is so personal to you. I am expressing my concern. You are not just saying, "Hey, this helped me" you are saying to ME at least, "You are really resisting getting better for looking at this in a different way."

No, I have dealt with this for 52 years. I am always open to new ideas. This ritual sounds fascinating. But I see young people today go into their parent's medicine cabinet, or go under the sink and get cleansers, or sniff paint fumes, etc. All of that is dangerous. But we also know that certain drugs cause hallucinations, dissociative experiences, etc. I am concerned about young people on this board.

I am far from alone in coming at this from a scientific/neurological perspecitve. You are far from alone in rejecting "Western" medicine. Those words are meaningless however, as humanity all over the world has it's own indigenous medicines that ultimately developed into more effective treatments over the years. What of China? What of the Inuit tribes. I could go on and on, but I don't think it will make a difference.

I'm not saying this is going to kill anyone, I'm saying "Buyer beware." I'd say the same thing about weed. Many here have had DP for 10 years from a joint. THEY HAD A PREDISPOSITION. You don't know what you're messing with. Rx drugs can cause DP/DR as well!

We don't understand DP/DR well enough.

Cheers,
D


----------



## Guest

_*Pharmacol Ther. 2004 May;102(2):111-29.*_
Clinical investigations of the therapeutic potential of ayahuasca: rationale and regulatory challenges.
McKenna DJ.

Source
Center for Spirituality and Healing, Academic Health Center, University of Minnesota, C592 Mayo Memorial Building, Mayo Mail Code 505, 420 Delaware Street Southeast, Minneapolis, MN 55455, USA. [email protected]
Abstract

*"Ayahuasca is a hallucinogenic beverage that is prominent in the ethnomedicine and shamanism of indigenous Amazonian tribes. Its unique pharmacology depends on the oral activity of the hallucinogen, N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT), which results from inhibition of monoamine oxidase (MAO) by beta-carboline alkaloids.

MAO is the enzyme that normally degrades DMT in the liver and gut."

EDIT: the rest of the article is back in this thread somewhere.*

*So are these individuals in Minnesota who are with a Center For Spirituality and Healing, related to the Mayo Clinic mistaken, foolish, too influenced by the West? in their scientific research? They are researching the THERAPEUTIC POTENTIAL of the drug. They are scientists who want to see how this can be used .... I would like to have them do further research. It would make me feel more comfortable. But as with the work they are doing there are researchers all over the world looking into MANY things to treat illness and disorders and to PREVENT them. What is wrong with this group? They are Western Scientists.*

And no, I am not a supporter of Big Pharma. Most of the drugs used today are the same as they were 50 years ago with a new name tacked onto them when they turn generic. That is unscrupulous. I HATE that. There is positive and negative about EVERYTHING IN THIS LIFE. If 52 years has taught me anything it would be that.


----------



## Guest

THought I added this somewhere, can't find it.

*The word science only means knowledge.* Why are people so afraid of science. Not everyone is Dr. Frankenstein. There are a lot of them out there, but in the main they are good people. One woman who used to be on the board, WITH DP, is now herself a neuroscientist, Ph.D. at Cambridge.

A scientific method is a specific way of achieving knowledge follow specific steps to confirm results.


----------



## Guest

Abraxas, Dreamer is the kind of person who believes only what the old newtonist science says. She doesn't believe in anything besides molecules reacting with each other. These type of people can't do anything with things like "soul" or "God", or "faith", or "impression", or "intiution". I feel sorry for people like them (no offense). Maybe it is part of the reason why she's suffering for so long.

They live in a world where love, desire, passion, fear, anxiety and ambition are only protein-molecules, determined by DNA and strict chemistry.

You talk about an inner journey, a personality growth, and she talks about molecules, periodic table, and studies. This argument will never end.


----------



## Pablo

I agree science will never find a universal pill for dp simply because each persons brain, neurochemical balance, life and experiences are completely unique to them so you would need a completely unique pill for each individual person and even then you are only treating the symptom of a problem not the cause.

I don't believe ayshuasca is a universal magic pill either, but I have been looking into it a fair bit and it could possibly help me confront things but it looks like finding a good place to do it is difficult as it has turned into big business in Peru with some places charging up to $2000 for 10 days, there are places much cheaper I'm sure but it's hard to know if they are safe or reputable. Also just about everyone involved claims they are a real shaman but I doubt they all are as being a shaman is a gift either given to you or passed down through your family so not all of them can be genuine, but the Internet is full of disinformation now there is big money involved so it's hard to find reliable information.

I have decided that if I loose my job or it becomes too stressful over the next few weeks I will go and risk it


----------



## Guest

They'll never find a pill that can remove a childhood trauma from your soul, or make you resolve it. Anybody who believes in it is really "mentally ill".


----------



## Abraxas

Dreamer* said:


> And what in the world does this have to do with being materialistic? I have no clue where that came from.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism

"In philosophy, the theory of materialism holds that the only thing that exists is matter; that all things are composed of material and all phenomena (including consciousness) are the result of material interactions."


----------



## Pablo

It is pretty interesting researching into the healing power of natural medicine, I was reading about how the plant Ibogaine has been used to treat drug addicts and in some cases just one single dose of the plant was enough to cure addicts permanently when years of western therapies and rehab had no effect. On the BBC you can watch the wildlife presenter Bruce Parry take it in a tribe ceremony and he says the plant shows you how all your actions affect other people but you see it from their perspective and he says just one night on taking it has had a profound effect on his life even many years later.


----------



## baking_pineapple

Taking ayahuasca doesn't sound too much different than my experiences on pscilocybin, the active ingredient in hallucinogenic mushrooms. So if you are looking for an experience that will purge your soul of its toxins, look no further than your closest psychedelic neo-hippie friend, a pasture full of cow manure, or if you're feeling especially industrious you can grow your own. Honestly, everything I've heard about Ayahuasca from this thread makes it hard to discriminate it from any other entheogen--mushrooms, mescaline, and even weed included. Now, I'm not really trying to knock these experiences since if I had to make a top ten of my most otherworldly, soul-realizing experiences, they would definitely all include mushrooms. However, I find that with these drugs there always is a trade-off. For me, being able to experience the limitless euporia, emotional purity, verbal fluity, and omniscience of the mushrooms for a period of 6-8 hours was followed by an equally intense immersion within nothingness, a feeling of presence stripped of all being, devoid of all life and joy. It's almost like I became dependent on mushrooms to experience life in all it's fullness... I became a sleeper cell going through the empty motions of day-to-day life, appearance without substance, merely waiting till I was magically reawakened by another ethereal chemical of Life.

Based on such highly disturbing, soul-numbing experiences with entheogens, I would strongly recommend that people don't try this drug.


----------



## Guest

Lowrey said:


> Abraxas, Dreamer is the kind of person who believes only what the old newtonist science says. She doesn't believe in anything besides molecules reacting with each other. These type of people can't do anything with things like "soul" or "God", or "faith", or "impression", or "intiution". I feel sorry for people like them (no offense). Maybe it is part of the reason why she's suffering for so long.
> 
> They live in a world where love, desire, passion, fear, anxiety and ambition are only protein-molecules, determined by DNA and strict chemistry.
> 
> You talk about an inner journey, a personality growth, and she talks about molecules, periodic table, and studies. This argument will never end.


"They." "She" "Dreamer" -- you talk about me in the third person like I am an object. Truly cruel for someone so spiritually enlightened by the gentle indigenous tribes of the Amazon. I wonder if they would welcome you back.

You have no idea who I am. How passionate I am. How much I can cry, how much I can laugh. How strong I am, how weak I am. I would never judge you for your beliefs. We can debate. Intelligent people debate all the time. You know nothing about me. I am also very much into Zen Buddhism. I have many beliefs, I am expressing my opinion here. I am concerned about so many young people experimenting with all kinds of drugs that could hurt them or make them worse.

I don't think you understand that whatever has made me who I am is both Nature and Nurture. I had some bad luck with both. Why attack me for the crap I grew up with? I'm doing damned well considering.

I resent that you imply I have never tried to get better. But I have to live with that.
I have not attacked you directly in any way. Or Abraxas. If I have, I apologize. I do not want to be that kind of person. But I am not perfect.

I would never talk this way of either of you.

The old saw is: "Great minds discuss ideas. *Small minds gossip about others*."

You show no respect. That is not admirable. But you are only words on a screen.
And though I want to be loved by everyone as I never was loved, I know I don't need your love or acceptance.
That's a huge step for me.
We all grow in our own time.
And for me. I have cancer now. And I don't know how much longer I could live. Years, or not so many years. I take one day at a time. And yes, as I said, if I don't want treatment anymore, I might try anything, many more risky things. THEN I have nothing to lose. NOW I have the progress I have made from an abusive childhood that I would never trade for anything.

*Shame on you for judging ANYONE here. If you have Faith, you would know, in the end NONE of us know what all of this is about, and I always have a spot for the concept of a higher power. Others here get EMPATHY ... it seems I'm not deserving as I talk about my own research. So much for your sensitivity. If you are "enlightened" by any spiritual experience, or by some faith, you would have understanding for others. I don't see it. Doesn't some spiritual enlightenment imply that you should be accepting of all others in the world? That never seems to work out does it?*


----------



## Abraxas

baking_pineapple said:


> "They." "She" "Dreamer" -- you talk about me in the third person like I am an object. Truly cruel for someone so spiritually enlightened by the gentle indigenous tribes of the Amazon. I wonder if they would welcome you back.


just to make sure.. it's Lowrey who wrote that message, not I. unless Lowrey also took healing ceremonies with the gentle indigenous tribes of the Amazon









anyway, hope you took no offense with my messeges. was nice arguing with you, take care.

Peace
Abraxas


----------



## Guest

Dreamer* said:


> "They." "She" "Dreamer" -- you talk about me in the third person like I am an object. Truly cruel for someone so spiritually enlightened by the gentle indigenous tribes of the Amazon. I wonder if they would welcome you back
> ....
> 
> *Shame on you for judging ANYONE here. If you have Faith, you would know, in the end NONE of us know what all of this is about, and I always have a spot for the concept of a higher power. Others here get EMPATHY ... it seems I'm not deserving as I talk about my own research. So much for your sensitivity. If you are "enlightened" by any spiritual experience, or by some faith, you would have understanding for others. I don't see it. Doesn't some spiritual enlightenment imply that you should be accepting of all others in the world? That never seems to work out does it?*


first of all, I don't know since when "she" or a name like "Dreamer" can refer to an object.

secondly, I didn't judge you in any way, I said you're looking at things from a materialistic, scientific, newtonist way, and Abraxas is talking about a journey of the soul.

where's the judgement?

and I never even see Ayahusca, and never been to see no tribes I don't know what you're talking about.


----------



## Visual

*And for me. I have cancer now. And I don't know how much longer I could live. Years, or not so many years. I take one day at a time. And yes, as I said, if I don't want treatment anymore, I might try anything, many more risky things. THEN I have nothing to lose. NOW I have the progress I have made from an abusive childhood that I would never trade for anything.*

Dreamer, are you saying that you are not in remission right now? So sorry to hear this.

*They live in a world where love, desire, passion, fear, anxiety and ambition are only protein-molecules, determined by DNA and strict chemistry.

You talk about an inner journey, a personality growth, and she talks about molecules, periodic table, and studies.*

This talk sounds like a common conflict often between religious and non-religious people regarding the idea of there being a 'Creator'. Shifting the 'mystery' of life to, 'who created the creator'.










Really, is life cheapened by the possibility that we are protein-molecules? Is this less precious? It neither 'proves' or disregards the existence of God.

Or must our body be relegated to being a 'container'? And the preciousness of life is something 'immortal' within? Freud said that humans don't believe in their own death - so we are inclined to want something beyond what we see with our eyes.

Curiously, the belief that we are just 'containers' has lead some to suicide in hope of a better second chance. And others to readily justify war or murder.

Whether one is a 'materialist' or otherwise - life IS beautiful and precious.

As for science: the smallest thing used to be molecules &#8230; then atoms &#8230; then electrons, protons and neutrons &#8230; then quark held together by gluons (and a realization that matter is just 'condensed and organized' energy)&#8230; Knowledge will grow.

As for neuro-biology: The 'material world' of chemicals affects ones consciousness. TBI or stroke can change a persons personality. Clearly we cannot discount the known 'material' world that is part of our construction. The mind can be strong but cannot circumvent our 'construction' anymore that belief can enable us to leap tall buildings.










Hey, it is good to have a strong healthy ego. But lets not get carried away.

Does this leave us without hope? Of course not - there are zillions of things to try and keep trying. As for Ayahuasca as a cure (the actual topic)? Many 'recreational' drugs may be useful in low doses and with careful control.

As for trusting shamans - how are they truly superior than any other religious leader? Already some have joined big business ($2000 a pop). There are fine people to be found everywhere. There are also a lot of people who like power, prestige and money.

Just be careful.

Whatever you choose to do, at least learn to have some fun. Anything to bring a smile, a flash of joy. Rebuild those neuro-networks (whether they are just 'material' or not). Find a good joke, keep giving hugs (even if you can't feel them), practice creative expression, hang with friends&#8230; And this cost nothing ($$$)

Best to you all&#8230;


----------



## Guest

*Dear Visual thank you for your kindness,*

*Lowrey*, *I was addressing the post to both you and Abraxas *-- who constantly claims, well both of you do, that I have not tried to get better which is a terribly cruel thing to say, and you say it to many on the board. And if you don't know by now, if you were sitting in a room and two people didn'tspeak directly to you and referred to you in the third person, "He" "She" "Lowrey" that is an insult. *Unbelievable that you don't know that. I know very well you know it is insulting and hurtful.* If you have something to say to someone and they are there to "hear" it -- in writing or in person, you would refer to the person by name. Not discuss me as though I am not here and am an object. It stings for me as my mother treated me as an object -- all of my life.

It would be like me right here saying to Visual, "Lowery is such and such, don't listen to him." "Abraxas doesn't know what he's talking about." KNOWING you will read it. KNOWING I AM DISCUSSING YOU, BUT THAT YOU WILL READ IT. It is a mark of narcissism, a show of superiority. I don't do that -- and always apologize if I have done that in the past.

I am sorry the post was not clear, but it was hurtful to me. *You do not understand the damage that was done to me EMOTIONALLY in my life. And I don't have a family. I really never had parents, I have no siblings, I feel very alone.

However, you are constantly attacking people here to "get over it" -- not just me. But I'm not coming here with these comments which come from newbies to all of this. I am no longer afraid. I don't have panic attacks. I don't dwell on the existential. My DP/DR has "moved in as an unwelcome guest and I get NO relief, no "opening to reality" -- NEVER. If I say that to people, yes, it can frighten many, but it is the TRUTH.

Instead, I come to make my contribution which is my research. But I also find I can come here (and I also have friends with DP in real life) who understand, even without my talking about it.*

Also, I thought when you first said materialist you were speaking in the sense of economics ... that is I value possessions more than the average person. I have never considered myself a materialist in the Wikipedia article and my life is simple. I'd gather I have fewer unnecessary possessions than the average person ... it makes life easier to declutter and focus on LIFE and LIVING.

*IN TERMS OF MENTAL ILLNESSES -- yes, I look to neurology-- I have seen too much working with mentally ill people to see the ravages of many illnesses that are obviously neurological and have been proven to be so. NO ONE UNDERSTANDS ENOUGH ABOUT DP TO FULLY UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON, but you don't look at the other side. And I am far from alone in that POV, including many highly respected researchers. And I have been again CONCERNED ABOUT THE YOUNG PEOPLE HERE, SELF-DIAGNOSED, AND TAKING DRUGS THAT COULD MAKE THEM WORSE OR HURT THEM.

I have taken the time to STUDY Ayahuasca -- I find it fascinating, have you taken one moment to read ANYTHING related to what I'm talking about, or have read ANY book I have referred to including EDIT: Dr. Mauricio Sierra, M.D, Ph.D. London, which is the DEFINITIVE text at the moment on DP? He explores all of these possiblities. He has no definitive understanding of DP and has worked on this for DECADES.*

I have found help with medication, but I have also found great help in therapy -- talk therapy, CBT, DBT. And I hold back nothing. I have to work at what was truly damaging to me. And I clearly see the integration of psychology vs. neurology. And there are many who interpret DP as a spiritual experience, as Buddhist enlightenment. There are others here who are Christian who find great comfort in their Faith. There are many here of different beliefs.

The Zen Buddhism I study is at this time strictly the words of Thich Nhat Hanh ... one book "No Death, No Fear." Another "The Miracle of Mindfulness." In these books he is not one to believe in a deity, but believes WE are all ONE of a greater whole, that each person has value, and that our purpose is to be the BEST WE CAN BE, that we aren't competing with others, or seeking fame, but doing the best we can do as OURSELVES, be it sweeping floors, or working in a factory, or being a professor, or a doctor. THAT is of comfort to me.

You don't understand me in the least. You haven't spoken to me in person. And your attitude here is one of attacking, both you and Abraxas ... your way or no way.

*And thank you Visual.* I'm OK right now, but they scare the HELL out of you when they give you more tests. And no doctor EVER says, "You are cancer free" and "we must follow this" "you need more tests" "we see thus and such" and you are always a survivor ... I will get through this, but it always gives one a different perspective on life and yes, how precious it is. I am not one year free since my mastectomy, and I have a battery of tests in a few weeks other than a mammogram as they are concerned about certain blood levels, etc. That's all I'll say.

BUT I WILL SAY. HAVING A BRAIN DISORDER -- and again, I don't have just DP, I have clinical depression and anxiety, but the DP is worse -- but having a Brain Disorder is WORSE than the fear of cancer. That is saying a lot.

I imagine if the cancer took me five years from now *Abraxas, and Lowrey, you will no doubt say I didn't try hard enough to get better.* That is YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM ... your religion so to speak.

*As everyone says -- find your own path and don't judge others. As the Bible says, "Judge not, lest you be judged." Yes I have studied the Bible at length.*

I hope everyone here returns to reality, 100%, and stays that way for the rest of his her life. And if they can't, may they have the best life possible.

*"Be kind, for everyone is fighting a hard battle." - PLATO*


----------



## Abraxas

Pablo said:


> I don't believe ayshuasca is a universal magic pill either, but I have been looking into it a fair bit and it could possibly help me confront things but it looks like finding a good place to do it is difficult as it has turned into big business in Peru with some places charging up to $2000 for 10 days, there are places much cheaper I'm sure but it's hard to know if they are safe or reputable. Also just about everyone involved claims they are a real shaman but I doubt they all are as being a shaman is a gift either given to you or passed down through your family so not all of them can be genuine, but the Internet is full of disinformation now there is big money involved so it's hard to find reliable information.
> 
> I have decided that if I loose my job or it becomes too stressful over the next few weeks I will go and risk it


True, there are many fake shamans and people taking advantage of this sacred medicine and turning it into big bussiness. Those retreats you find on the internet are specially designed for well, people who look for shamans on the internet. If you think about it, a proper indigenous shaman will never advertise his healing on the net.
It seems that Peru specially is full of these expensive retreats. My guess is though, if you travel to Iquitos, you are very likely to find a good shaman just by asking the locals.
I dont know much about ayahuasca in Peru cause i took my ceremonies in Brazil. I ve been to two different towns (one up the amazons, one near Brasilia) and i can vouch for those places.. Also know a few friends that have told me about their possitive experiences in other towns, specially in the Amazons, say near the triple frontier with Peru and Bolivia. Anyway, anyone interested in travelling to south america to partake in an ayahuasca healing ceremony can email me and i ll try to be of help. These places I know do not charge any money, they just accept donations (if its a proper shaman in an indigenous tribe, a bag of rice would do, if its a more town-ish shaman maybe you can donate about 20Reais (10 dollars), and never more than 50. Also, they serve ayahuasca all around the world. Tehre is this church called Santo Daime that has churches/temples all around the world, including USA/UK, etc. Just do some research. The 'problem' with Daime is that it is Christian and they will have you sing hours on end about jesus in portuguese, while under the effect of ayahuasca. But there are many other 'churches'/schools, some of which are much more free in that sense (of religion/cult).


----------



## Abraxas

Visual dude, just to add something, there seems to be, like you say, a 'fight' between Atheists and Creationists. In my view to deny the spiritual and hold that there is nothing else than matter, that is, that matter creates mind, is absurd, as Object could never create the Subject that is experiencing the Object in the first place. Now, this does not imply that this Subject was willingly *created * by some self-consciouss God. So maybe the answer is somewhere outside this duality, and neither of these parts are right. Still, to deny Subject over Object is a very limiting belief-system in my opinion, and may be one of the factors contributing to DPD. Having said this, I still believe Ayahuasca will work regardless of your belief-system.. you might think of it as opening the spiritual world to you, or you might think of DMT and MAOI's interacting with your neurons and the vine killing parasites and cleansing your body, etc. The important think is wellbeing. DPD is hell, wether it is caused by some neurons gone wrong or by a spiritual dark-night of the soul. And medicine is medicine, regardless of what it is made of. I believe and know through experience that Ayahuasca is real medicine. Of course it might not work with everyone, but knowing DPD first-hand, after say, 3 years of suffering in this desert, really, you have nothing to lose and in my opinion is more than worth trying. But again, that is my opinion, and I respect those who would rather stay away from it, it obviously has its dangers, very much like undergoing a heart operation has its dangers. There is no medicine without risks. With ayahuasca, i know for sure no one ever dies with it. And only psychotics or schizofrenics might 'lose it' with it. And we know DPD sufferers have a firm grip on reality, in spite of their obsessive questioning and doubting it and themselves. All in all, i think DPD patients have a very strong mind, they re just afraid of feelings and of fear itself. I think worst case scenario you can have a bad trip and go home the way you arrived, with DPD. best case scenario: you go back home being yourself again, or if you ve had DPD early since childhood, you might experience for the first time what it is to be, to be connect to feelings, to life, to love. really, i believe ayahuasca helps you regain your soul, or at least it helped me.

and well, thats that, i really dont have anything else to add here

peace
Abraxas


----------



## nuncle

Without reading through this whole thread to see if this was already stated overtly, I can say DO NOT ingest ayahuasca while trying to cure your DP/DR - it is how I got mine. The effect of the substance is extremely volatile creating profoundly euphoric/spiritual experiences for some and profoundly terrifying and panic provoking experiences for others. The substance drastically alters your sense of self, which is not something conducive to curing DP/DR. It is also referred to as the 'vine of souls' or 'vine of death' because of the ego death like experience that can and will most likely occur. Also, please don't be allured by the spiritual context - whilst shamans and indigenous traditions use this routinely in certain areas of the amazon, your brain is still subject to the laws of science and those sensitive to bad experiences (dep/anxiety etc.) have a higher incidence of the experience going awry.


----------



## Pablo

nuncle said:


> Without reading through this whole thread to see if this was already stated overtly, I can say DO NOT ingest ayahuasca while trying to cure your DP/DR - it is how I got mine. The effect of the substance is extremely volatile creating profoundly euphoric/spiritual experiences for some and profoundly terrifying and panic provoking experiences for others. The substance drastically alters your sense of self, which is not something conducive to curing DP/DR. It is also referred to as the 'vine of souls' or 'vine of death' because of the ego death like experience that can and will most likely occur. Also, please don't be allured by the spiritual context - whilst shamans and indigenous traditions use this routinely in certain areas of the amazon, your brain is still subject to the laws of science and those sensitive to bad experiences (dep/anxiety etc.) have a higher incidence of the experience going awry.


Please explain more about how ayahuasca gave you dp? Where did you take it? What country and what setting? What were your experiences? How did it cause dp for you? Are you sure it was caused by ayahuasca?

I have been trawling the Internet for weeks and you are the first person I have found out of thousands to say it has caused long term negative problems so I'd be very interested to know more about your experience


----------



## gill

Abraxas said:


> you might think of it as opening the spiritual world to you, or you might think of DMT and MAOI's interacting with your neurons and the vine killing parasites and cleansing your body, etc. The important think is wellbeing. DPD is hell, wether it is caused by some neurons gone wrong or by a spiritual dark-night of the soul....
> peace
> Abraxas


Agreed.

I think DP could be seen as physical, mental, or spiritual, depending on the context it's being looked at. The more important question to me is what actually works in resolving it. Because, even if I was somehow given the absolute truth as to what DP is, my first question would still be, ok, and how the hell do I resolve it?


----------



## Abraxas

nuncle said:


> Without reading through this whole thread to see if this was already stated overtly, I can say DO NOT ingest ayahuasca while trying to cure your DP/DR - it is how I got mine. The effect of the substance is extremely volatile creating profoundly euphoric/spiritual experiences for some and profoundly terrifying and panic provoking experiences for others. The substance drastically alters your sense of self, which is not something conducive to curing DP/DR. It is also referred to as the 'vine of souls' or 'vine of death' because of the ego death like experience that can and will most likely occur. Also, please don't be allured by the spiritual context - whilst shamans and indigenous traditions use this routinely in certain areas of the amazon, your brain is still subject to the laws of science and those sensitive to bad experiences (dep/anxiety etc.) have a higher incidence of the experience going awry.


 bro i think you re talking shit. You are saying you got DPD *from* *Ayahuasca*? or from other psychedelics like LSD? I didnt experience ego death with it and none of my friends did. I know many people who tried ayahuasca and none of them experienced this ego-death you talk about, so definitely you are wrong when you claim "the ego death like experience can and will most likely occur".

Also 'The substance drastically alters your sense of self, which is not something conducive to curing DP/DR.' are you serious? people with DPD obviously have a fucked up sense of self in the first place, of course you re going to need something that changes this wrong self-view if you want to heal.
I agree though with what you say that people with anxiety disorders have more chances of experiencing a bad trip. in my view this 'purgatory' is necesary for healing. all that shit needs to come out... of course you re gona experience 'hell' when you see it gushing out your mind. but well, to keep blocking it deep inside = DPD.

i said i had nothing else to add here but then you write this kind of post... if you make such a bold claim, could you at least have the decency to elaborate a bit on your story and justify your argument? cause like this it seems you re trying to disqualify a whole thread and many posts i ve written just by writting a couple of gloomy phrases out of nowhere.


----------



## Abraxas

Dreamer* said:


> *Lowrey*, *I was addressing the post to both you and Abraxas *-- who constantly claims, well both of you do, that I have not tried to get better which is a terribly cruel thing to say, and you say it to many on the board.
> 
> I imagine if the cancer took me five years from now *Abraxas, and Lowrey, you will no doubt say I didn't try hard enough to get better.* That is YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM ... your religion so to speak.


i think i overlooked this.

Dreamer, i doubt that i have made such claim. Can you please quote this as i ve been through my posts and can not find this. I also doubt i would ever say this kind of things. I only suggested, and i think thats the word i used 'may i suggest', that the materialistic belief system (that in which one holds that matter creates mind, that the subjective experience of self/consciousness is a product of brain chemistry, etc) may be one of the root causes of your DPD or one of the factors that is preventing you from reaching complete recovery, as this belief-system is, in my view, very limiting when it comes to self-view, and specially when trying to overcome DPD, as one goes out in a search for a missing neurotransmitter/hormone, etc (which apparently is never to be found), and in doing so one becomes a 'victim' of the laws of nature/causality/environment, and overlooks the power of healing that can come from will, the power of mind over matter. Also in my experience, thinking too much about evolution, physics, neurochemistry, etc, really constricted my self view and i would close my mind to experiences that are considered 'supernatural', or even i would close myself to feelings in general as i thought 'oh thats just some hormones, a product of evolution, nothing genuine!'. In my case, western science played a key role in triggering my DPD.

If however what i wrote sounded like i was implynig that you are somehow weak or you have not been 'trying hard enough', i sincerely apologize. I know first hand what it feels to try your best and it still not being enough.

Peace

ps, also when you say Science means knowledge (due to its etymology), may i remind you this is just a word and does not really mean that science = knowledge. The scientific method is one of the many ways that one can reach knowledge. however, questions like *what* *kind* of knowlege is and could ever be achieved through this particular method ,and mainly, wether this method and this knowledge applies and is relevant to matters of Subjective experience, ie Consciousness/mind/self, are always overlooked in the western world, and we assume that science is the only way to Gnosis/knowlege, when this is far from truth. Gnosis of Self/Subject can never be attained by knowledge of phenomena/matter/Object. That is, observing the 'laws' of nature will never shed much light on the Subject that is observing the laws of nature in the first place.


----------



## Guest

I found this article fascinating. I'm only contributing this as a sample of research into the use of hallucinogens for medicinal purposes. It is a very long article, but covers all aspects of how to SAFELY experiment with psychedelics on humans (an older term) IN A CONTROLLED RESEARCH SETTING and who might be at risk of having a negative outcome.

I have copied a few paragraphs. The article is ... 17 pages long and you should go to the link -- a great article to read regarding this thread:
Darn, now I have to go back and find the link, LOL.
Check this out, it is well worth reading in understanding the pros and cons of such drugs.
From this page, you can find a TON of links in the columns to all sorts of these herbal remedies and direct references to ayahuasca, etc.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3056407/?tool=pmcentrez

_*J Psychopharmacol. 2008 August; 22(6): 603-620.*_
Published online 2008 July 1. doi: 10.1177/0269881108093587.

PMCID: PMC3056407
NIHMSID: NIHMS256719
Copyright notice and Disclaimer
*Human Hallucinogen Research: Guidelines for Safety*
_Matthew W. Johnson,1 William A. Richards,2 and Roland R. Griffiths1,3
_1
Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine
2Johns Hopkins Bayview Medical Center
3Department of Neuroscience, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine

"There has recently been a renewal of human research with classical hallucinogens (psychedelics). This paper first briefly discusses the unique history of human hallucinogen research, and then reviews the risks of hallucinogen administration and safeguards for minimizing these risks. Although hallucinogens are relatively safe physiologically and are not considered drugs of dependence, their administration involves unique psychological risks. The most likely risk is overwhelming distress during drug action ("bad trip"), which could lead to potentially dangerous behavior such as leaving the study site. Less common are prolonged psychoses triggered by hallucinogens.

*Safeguards against these risks include the exclusion of volunteers with personal or family history of psychotic disorders or other severe psychiatric disorders, establishing trust and rapport between session monitors and volunteer before the session, careful volunteer preparation, a safe physical session environment, and interpersonal support from at least two study monitors during the session.*

Investigators should probe for the relatively rare hallucinogen persisting perception disorder in follow up contact. Persisting adverse reactions are rare when research is conducted along these guidelines. Incautious research may jeopardize participant safety and future research. However, carefully conducted research may inform the treatment of psychiatric disorders, and may lead to advances in basic science."

_*Keywords:*_ hallucinogens, psychedelics, entheogens, psilocybin, LSD, DMT, mescaline, 5-HT2A agonists, safety guidelines, adverse reactions, human research

.......

After a decades-long period of dormancy in response to the sensationalism surrounding the nonmedical use of hallucinogens during the 1960's, human hallucinogen research has resumed in the United States and Europe, and is now beginning to address a variety of important basic research questions as well as potential therapeutic applications (Nichols, 2004).

In light of the unusual history of restriction on human research with this class of compounds, it is critical for investigators to implement appropriate and conservative safeguards. With such safeguards this class of compounds can be studied safely in humans.

Careless research that lacks attention to the unique risk profile of hallucinogens may not only endanger the safety and well-being of the research participants, but may also jeopardize future human research with these scientifically fascinating compounds.

On the other hand, carefully conducted research that respects hallucinogens' unique and often powerful psychological effects may potentially inform the treatment of various psychiatric disorders, as well as lead to *significant advances in our understanding of perception, cognition, behavior, the psychology of religion, and the biological underpinnings of consciousness.*


..............

_*"Depending on the nature of the study, it may be appropriate to exclude those with other psychiatric disorders as well."*_ 
Unless the research study is designed to specifically address a question relevant to a specific psychiatric disorder, our advice is to select a population that is psychiatrically healthy. This strategy is warranted because the effects of hallucinogens may potentially interact with various psychiatric disorders. Furthermore, including volunteers with psychiatric disorders may increase the chances that symptoms from such disorders may inadvertently be misattributed to hallucinogen action.

For example, our recent studies with healthy volunteers have excluded volunteers with a current or a recent past history (e.g., within the last 5 years) of alcohol or drug dependence (excluding caffeine and nicotine) or *major depression*, and volunteers with current obsessive-compulsive disorder, dysthymic disorder, *panic disorder, dissociative disorder*, anorexia nervosa, or bulimia nervosa."

........

Excellent article with the history of this research, many charts, notes on the use of various plants, their names, the uses in an indigenous culture, etc. I plugged in "Ayahuasca" and did a broad search for full articles. Again, Ayahusasca comes up as having properties similar to MAOIs and DMT.


----------



## Guest

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pmc&cmd=DetailsSearch&term=ayahuasca&save_search=true&log$=activity

Search results on ayahuasca specifically.
There are photos, EEG mappings, etc.
Also a note that if the US patents this, South Americans will be charged for it.
It is also noted that ayahuasca vacations are frequently not a good idea as they may be "tourist traps" and you will not be "observed" by real shamans, etc.


----------



## Abraxas

well that would be ridiculous, as south american natives have been using ayahuasca for millenia... another example of the insanity of the western world.

i doubt they could ever patent it though, i think they already tried and were ruled out in court.


----------



## Guest

Abraxas said:


> well that would be ridiculous, as south american natives have been using ayahuasca for millenia... another example of the insanity of the western world.
> 
> i doubt they could ever patent it though, i think they already tried and were ruled out in court.


*Why would that be ridiculous? What I am trying to convey to you is MANY drugs we use today, not just psychiatric, ARE MADE FROM EXISTING PLANTS THAT HAVE BEEN USED BY INDIGENOUS SOCIETIES -- the history of medicine and use of remedies goes back to Ancient EGYPT -- similar compounds were found to help illness THEN* -- we use controlled versions of the same remedies frequently because treatment in an emergency setting requires immediate results -- treatment for a heart attack (a blood thinner) is warfarin essentially -- used to kill rats, make them bleed to death -- better to control the amount per individual, standards that INCREASE potential of living. Why not look at the Ayahuasa article. It has a great deal of information on direct research ON TRIBAL GROUPS that are still around today.

Just for simplicity's sake, aspirin again, was a Native American Indian folk remedy. I have to double check that -- no look at the history of the Bayer aspirin company . Ultimately it was marketed. The medication I TAKE FOR CANCER is based on a discovery that came from some bark of a tree somewhere.

I keep emphasizing the point that there are a finite number of elements on the Earth. Plants have always provided individuals with medicinal and religious experiences. The indigenous people of these areas are frequently near large cities. But they have no access to traditional medical treatment and use shamans and herbal supplements. Applications for Ayahuasca are lengthy and are used for just about everything.

*You say I resist looking at the spiritual. Again I have done further research, and am really interested that this resurgence of research into these drugs (and Ayahuasca IS A DRUG that is used for medicinal or spiritual practice) ... why do you resist even looking at the research into Ayahuasca? I'm not saying anything (scientific research) is THE answer but you're going to have to accept the fact that it goes on the world over.
*
We wish to preserve the Rain Forests, the oceans, as they are full of remedies that could help in ALL illnesses.

The NETHERLANDS agreed to make Ayahuasca legal after RESEARCH wherein the government deemed it safe in certain uses, again as I understand it addiction -- I believe though the government has CONTROLLED it for safety's sake. If it is controlled and mass marketed people will be charged for it. And as I said, unscrupulous people in Peru in particular are charging a fortune for "Spiritual Healing Vacations" which bring the indigenous people money to live on. It is how the world works ... if anything the locals should be compensated. There are fewer and fewer indigenous people/tribes on Earth. Western society has encroached on many places. I was interested in studying anthropology in the late 1980s. I was told by a professor where I took courses that finding a purely untouched civilization is EXTREMELY difficult.

Also, even if medicine is controlled it can ultimately be found on the black market. Illegal production -- some of which may be terribly unsafe -- such as meth labs in people's basements, will also pop up. NOTHING NEW.

I would actually be fascinated -- seriously -- to hear of your visit to Brazil, how you got there, how you communicated with the locals, as the languages are Spanish, Portuguese, and tribal. Where did you stay? How did you GET to certain locations? Could you write in more detail of the entire logistics of your trip. I'm very interested, since it was not a "Retreat" of some sort. And when did you go? I really would appreciate that, and I'm being quite sincere. Will you share some of these specifics with us?


----------



## Guest

I didn't make this up. If you look at the Ayahuasca research page -- it has a photo of a soothsayer taking Ayahuasca from a shell -- the caption reads

*"An Andean soothsayer inhales hallucinogenic ayahuasca from a shell: if the United States succeeds in patenting the ayahuasca plant, many South Americans will have to pay for it."*
I find that rather sad -- and I would think that locals should be compensated for this, either with money, food, free medical care -- who knows. But this is how Western drugs are discovered. There is nothing new under the sun. The only elements we truly mess with are radioactive. And I think they just added two more to the periodic table.

These are FACTS. This information is true. I didn't make it up, discover any of it, I'm simply reading about it. That's how one learns about anything. Study. Please look at the Ayahuasca link. I have learned a lot from it ... truly ... things I never knew save my vague memories of the work in the 1960s. This is an ENTIRE field of study in and of itself.

*Many medications you may take today for the simplest thing as a cold, or allergy, or eye drops, started out as "home remedies." *

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1129076/figure/FN0x9734c38.0x9c65138/

PLEASE JUST LOOK AT ONE PHOTO AND THE LINK TO AYAHUASCA. Research into these things started in the 1960s. "The drug culture of hippies." I was a kid during that time, but I was aware of it. I know individuals who in uni at that time experimented with many of these drugs. Most found them disturbing. Others enjoyed them.


----------



## Guest

h0e1r1e6t1i8c8 said:


> This thread is full of misinformation and misguided advice. N,N-Dimethyltryptamin (DMT) is a very interesting molecule because it is so powerful and hence potentially very dangerous. MAOIs needed to prevent enzymes from breaking down oral DMT too quickly are very powerful as well with side effects that can be fatal. Contrary to what was said earlier in this thread, MAOIs have psychoactive effects all by themselves. Simply put, MAOIs effectively raise levels of serotonin, norepinephrine, epinephrine, phenethylamines, dopamine, and other monoamine neurotransmitters.
> 
> N,N-Dimethyltryptamin binds non-selectively (binds/'is active at' to several) to serotonin receptors, adrenergic , dopamine, sigma, and others. Administration of the drug elevates levels of cortisol (the stress hormone) as well as the hormone prolactin which triggers a release of the 'love' hormone oxytocin that is largely responsible for the warm and therapeutic effect of DMT. Serotonin, adrenergic, and sigma receptors are all suspected to be involved in depersonalization disorder. DMT is arguably the most potent hallucinogenic drug and the mechanism behind what causes the hallucinations is unknown, but it is for certain different than other hallucinogens such as LSD or psilocybin.
> 
> In short, DMT/Ayahuasca *induces*/_"causes"_ symptoms of depersonalization. It does not cure depersonalization disorder. If anyone wishes to find this out the hard way, do your homework (outside of this thread) and be safe. Do not combine DMT with any other drugs and obey the dietary restrictions of MAOIs if necessary. The effects/trip of DMT are short lasting, but the depersonalization hangover lasts for hours to several days or so a little bird told me.


Thank you. Amen. And I rest my case. I don't think individuals on this Board should be messing with this stuff. I am concerned with young people in particular. Who knows what this does to a developing brain of a teen or young adult.


----------



## Pablo

Just watched this documentary again which someone posted here ages ago,

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x39tss_ayahuasca-the-snake-and-i-english-1_travel

It's not a bad documentary and there is a docu film about it I watched last week called Metamorphisis which is also pretty good. Now I have to see if I can build up the courage to go try it


----------



## Soul Seeker

How can you say that it doesn't cure depersonalization when it worked for Abraxas?


----------



## Guest

it doesn't make sense to keep this thread going

Abraxas posted his personal experience with Ayahusca, and wrote down several times that it is no joke, so only do that if you really want to do it. You read it, you try it or you don't.

but since then, the thread is a senseless fight between people who believe in only the materialistic, scientific, newtonist world, and people who believe in soul.

Dreamer, doesn't matter how many pages you write, you either believe in 5-HT2A agonists, researches, and that you're a chemical machine, or you believe that you have a soul and you need to deal with your feelings on that level. 13245 pages and studies won't resolve this contradiction. The link you posted only proves that there are other people who think like you. Nothing more. Psychiatric studies are so ridiculous sometimes that I literally laugh after reading it.

DP/anxiety is a very, very hard fight, but believing that you're the victim of the chemistry of your brain makes it a hopeless one too.


----------



## Guest

Soul Seeker said:


> How can you say that it doesn't cure depersonalization when it worked for Abraxas?


As I understand it, and Abraxas will have to forgive me if I'm wrong, Abraxas GOT DP from this and cured it from this. He is ONE individual on this board who was apparently successful with this.

I just watched the first part of Pablo's documentary. Again, it is a retreat ... nine months of hard work aside from the use of the plant. And the focus seems to be on helping with ADDICTION, although one individual has Social Anxiety.

*There is drug induced DP/DR and NON drug induced. We don't understand why some people have non drug-induced. I am one. Why do some people have a frightening experience on this drug and others don't?*

You can't take the experience of ONE person and generalize from it. Also, why do some people here say they got DP from weed and yet weed sometimes makes them feel better?

Also, say in my experience where this started in childhood, why was it not frightening then? Why does alcohol make DP/DR HORRIBLE for me? And why do I have DP/DR 24/7, 365 days a year, even in my dreams. Some here say they feel REALITY in dreams. Why are some here cured by anti-convulsants?

Abraxas will have to speak for himself, but WE ARE ALL UNIQUE. And in ALL of medicine, some individuals respond well to all types of drugs for different things. SOme cannot tolerate certain prescription drugs, others can. Others can die from a prescription drug.

*WE ARE ALL UNIQUE, AND ONE PERSON'S EXPERIENCE CANNOT STAND FOR EVERYONE.* ALSO, I DON'T KNOW IF ABRAXAS WAS OFFICIALLY DIAGNOSED WITH DPD. HE HAS TO EXPLAIN THAT. I STILL WANT TO HEAR OF HIS EXPERIENCE. THE FIRST TIME HE TOOK THIS, AND THE TIME HE WAS CURED. I'M REALLY FASCINATED BY THIS, BUT PERSONALLY WOULD NEVER RISK THIS. I REALIZE MANY HERE WHO TAKE RECREATIONAL DRUGS OF ALL TYPES -- I SIMPLY WOULD NOT DO THIS, HEARING EXPERIENCES OVER THE YEARS FROM FRIENDS. MOST OF MY FRIENDS IN COLLEGE WOULD NEVER TRY SOMETHING LIKE THIS, MENTALLY HEALTHY OR NOT.

If someone has a drug related onset and was not anxious or prone to dissociate, the response in a second attempt may bring them out of it.

We DON'T understand DP/DR, and moreso, we don't understand the differences and similarities of drug induced vs. trauma or non drug induced or those who get DP for absolutely no reason at all.

I could also say, many have had abuse like mine and never developed ANY mental illness. WHY? My experience doesn't speak for anyone else's but myself.


----------



## Guest

Lowrey said:


> it doesn't make sense to keep this thread going
> 
> Abraxas posted his personal experience with Ayahusca, and wrote down several times that it is no joke, so only do that if you really want to do it. You read it, you try it or you don't.
> 
> but since then, the thread is a senseless fight between people who believe in only the materialistic, scientific, newtonist world, and people who believe in soul.
> 
> Dreamer, doesn't matter how many pages you write, you either believe in 5-HT2A agonists, researches, and that you're a chemical machine, or you believe that you have a soul and you need to deal with your feelings on that level. 13245 pages and studies won't resolve this contradiction. The link you posted only proves that there are other people who think like you. Nothing more. Psychiatric studies are so ridiculous sometimes that I literally laugh after reading it.
> 
> DP/anxiety is a very, very hard fight, but believing that you're the victim of the chemistry of your brain makes it a hopeless one too.
> 
> You simply don't care to much for me for one reason or another. Fine. I can't do anything about it. And am now going out to go grocery shopping. Have a fine day.


Well, then all the important research going on around the world is garbage. I don't believe that. Also be thankful for Western medicine that has existed for centuries and given us a foundation for medicine which extends life. Individuals in Ancient times lived to be 30 or 40. Life expectancy these days can be 90. That's good and bad. Many of these indigenous people or those who live in poverty have very short lifespans.

*And showing research into this does not indicate I believe we are all strictly the product of our brains.

You DO know that a great number of scientists and doctors are people of Faith, be it Christian, Hindi, Muslim, Shinto, etc.? Are you unaware of this? And if you don't wish to read this thread, don't. And you can also place me on "Ignore" and won't see any of my posts." I find this a fascinating discussion and I'm learning a lot from it. Hey, I can do what I want to, and what in God's name is wrong with studying about something?*


----------



## Soul Seeker

Please, let's all keep this a civil discussion. No need for yelling.

This thread should be kept open. Clearly a lot of members here find it very interesting. While it has shifted from just being about ayahuasca, discussing the nature of DPD is important.


----------



## Abraxas

h0e1r1e6t1i8c8 said:


> On the other side of the coin, how can you say that it doesn't cause depersonalization when others say it has?


who said it causes DPD? can you post the article that says Ayahuasca causes Depersonalization Disorder please?

or are you refering to nuncle? who also threw in two phrases and tried to disqualify this whole thread without even backing up his argument, im still waiting for his reply, im quite sure he was refering to other psychedelics. 
.

And Dreamer... really, whats with this argument about 'the elements', i frankly dont care what ayahuasca is made of. im still interested in research about its effects. if you find any, please post them. i ve heard many times it is used to treat drug addictions, and there are reports of it even curing cancer. but well, western science will never make serious investigations on ayahuasca.. why? cause they cant patent it*, ie *no money*. And you say that western medicine 'betters' this indigenous drugs and controls them. well, they will never be able to do that, because the healing power of Ayahuasca does not come from some magical molecule, it comes from its effect, the cure is in the trip, in the experience. its not like marihuana, now they are trying to find THC analogues to treat some conditions without the psychedelic effects of THC. They wont get anywhere using this approach with Ayahuasca, as the trip it takes you through and the visions you have are exactly what heals you in the first place. of course, they will never understand this and they might even perform scans on the shamans brain while he s under the effect and say shit like 'ooh it looks like the fronto-parietal lobe is being activated as we can see here by this fucking spikes on a screen'







, while the shaman might be seeing an Archetypical, Primordial image of the Mother Goddess, nurturing him and giving him healing.

*They already tried patenting it but they were ruled out in court. And yes, it was very ridiculous that they tried to patent it, ridiculous and arrogant, because these indigenous people have been using Ayahuasca for more than 2000 years (some say 10,000), and there comes a couple of fat bussinesmen, and patent it, then go to South america, show these natives a piece of paper with a fat politician's signature, and charge them money for serving Ayahuasca?!?!?! that is the definition of ridiculous.

Here is some info on the Ayahuasca Patent Case
http://www.ciel.org/Biodiversity/ayahuascapatentcase.html

wow it looks like after over-ruling it, the fat greedy bussinesman pulled some strings and managed to patent it... anyway, the patent has now expired, thanks GOD and the SACRED SPIRITS OF THE AMAZONS WHO ARE MUCH BETTER THAN SCIENCE! hahaha







im kiddin. but really, wtf, shame on that guy.. that really goes on to show the arrogance of the modern world.

"Under the law, a patent applied for before 1995 expires 17 years from the date of its original issuance. The "ayahuasca patent" expired on June 17, 2003. It cannot be renewed."

Anyway, if you want to bring science into the table, i respect it (I have a Biochemistry university degree myself)... but post the actual information/study before you start making claims (specially h0e1r1e6t1i8c). All the research i ve seen only throws possitive light on ayahuasca and its therapeutic effects.. so really i dont know where u guys are getting your info. so please, post a link to the original article.

Peace
Abraxas


----------



## Guest

Abraxas, you said:


> Anyway, if you want to bring science into the table, i respect it (I have a Biochemistry university degree myself)... but post the actual information/study before you start making claims (specially h0e1r1e6t1i8c). All the research i ve seen only throws possitive light on ayahuasca and its therapeutic effects.. so really i dont know where u guys are getting your info. so please, post a link to the original article.


1. I have a bit of a problem with this and can only take you at your word. If you had a degree in Biochemistry you would understand the points I'm trying to make. And why, if you have such disdain for Western Science would you get a degree in Biochem? I'm curious.
Regardless:

2. I have given ample links to some wonderful information on the study of Ayahuasca and other hallucinogens wherein Western medicine see POSITIVE uses for these drugs -- for psychiatric disorders, movement disorders (Parkinson's), etc.

Pablo posted an excellent video which I've watched part of on the entire experience.

*But the bottom line to all of this, is I have YET to come across any article, journal reference, etc. that states this cures DP. If anything in the study at Johns Hopkins it notes that to be cautious in testing the effects of these drugs (Ayhuasca included) they eliminate individuals with specific psychiatric disorders including Dissociative Disorders, Panic, etc.*

3. * But Abraxas I am still curious about your experience in Brazil. I seriously want to hear about it. How you got there, with whom, how you set it up, how long you stayed, where you stayed, etc.*

Also, I don't intend to "yell" when I put things in red or highlight them in other ways. If someone isn't going to read the whole thing, I try to call attention to certain points. Sorry.


----------



## Pablo

You can't say it can cure dp or not because it is completely down the the individual and where they are at in themselves individually.

If you have someone who has suffered for many years who is willing to face up to all the darkness in their soul, who is willing to face up to deep suffering without running away, even willing to face up to their own death then taking something like ayahuasca may be the catalyst which allows them to let go of their problems and recover.

But on the other hand if you give someone ayahuasca who is trying to avoid their own suffering, someone who believes they can completely control their lives and the universe with their own mind, someone who still believes in the power of their own ego then it may end up just making things worse, it could cause dp in someone like that I expect as they will resist it.

From what I can see it creates a battle in you between what's in you trying to come to the surface and your own ego which tries to regain supremacy, so I think you need to be in a place within yourself where you are prepared to really let go for it to help. One mans medicine is another mans poison, and you can't necessarily rely on someone else or a study to tell you what is your own medicine or poison as they don't know where you are in yourself.

You can read all about the brain neurotransmitters etc which is all good but the experience is so much about the set and setting while diving into your subconscious mind, so the songs and icaros of the shaman and his help and protection are crucial for a positive resolution from the experience it seems. If you just get high on your own with ayahuasca then it could damage you if you panic as you have no guide out, but if you have a shaman to guide you to bring to to the present moment with his songs and drumming and reassure you when you are freaking out then it can guide you through it with a healing resolution.


----------



## Guest

Dreamer* said:


> *But the bottom line to all of this, is I have YET to come across any article, journal reference, etc. that states this cures DP.[/i]*


then this thread is what?


----------



## Abraxas

h0e1r1e6t1i8c8 said:


> _Nothing_ was said to convey the two paragraphs were in support of said conclusion. Strawman logical fallacy.
> 
> i dont know wether i should take you seriously or not.
> you said: *In short*, DMT/Ayahuasca induces/"causes" symptoms of depersonalization. It does not cure depersonalization disorder. That 'IN SHORT' implies that you were drawing a conclusion from what you have previously written, or that you were summarizing what you have exposedon the previous paragraphs. when nothing you said there could ever get you to that conclusion.
> 
> 'Strawman logical fallacy.'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol
> 
> Well aware. What does that fact have to do with what I said about possible fatal interactions? If you'd read my previous post I already mentioned the dietary restriction and I don't see the point of elaborating on the details of MAOI-tryptamine interaction, but I said what I did because the neurotransmitter elevating effect MAOIs have on some individuals is dangerous in itself. A very real risk for a hypertensive crisis is not fear mongering.
> 
> You didnt say 'fatal *interactions*' you just said fatal. which taken out of context means death and is fear mongering. It is quite simple to avoid the few foods that interact badly with ayahuasca so this is really not a problem.
> 
> Not all mind altering substances cause dissociation. I never stated it causes DPD so again you should revisit what I had said.
> 
> 'DMT/Ayahuasca induces/"causes" symptoms of depersonalization. It does not cure depersonalization disorder.' the way you phrased this makes it look like you re implying that not only it does not cure dpd, it causes it (or its symptoms)
> 
> DMT does has no effect on systems that ketamine and salvia divinorum can influence. DMT in part has the same actions as LSD, MDMA, and 2C-I. Just FYI.
> 
> I dont give a fuck, why are you even talking about this now? it looks like you know ABC biochem and you re just trying to show off without really adding anything to the thread.
> 
> Gee, in this thread? Need any more proof? Read the reviews for a product and you might find the vast majority to be negative, but that does not mean the majority of people aren't satisfied with the product. I've already read enough personal experiences to know that some mediums have mostly positive anecdotes while others have the opposite.
> 
> what proof are you talking about? no one here shared his/her experience with ayahuasca.
> 
> 'Read the reviews for a product and you might find the vast majority to be negative, but that does not mean the majority of people aren't satisfied with the product.'. sorry this makes no sense.
> 
> Nothing I said was copied and pasted nor did I claim the source of my information came from a little bird.
> 
> 
> 'The effects/trip of DMT are short lasting, but the depersonalization hangover lasts for hours to several days or so *a little bird told me*.'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't. Can you post an article that says Ayahuasca *cures* Depersonalization Disorder or do you not hold yourself to the same standards you demand from others?
> 
> No i cant post an article that says ayahuasca cures DPD because there is no article stating that anything ever cures DPD. I am just sharing my anecdotal experience with ayahuasca curing *my* DPD. So of course, if it cured my DPD, it can cure DPD. However, if you claim it can not cure it, like you did, (somehow ignoring the whole point of this thread: ie, it can because it did for me), it would be nice if you backed up such claim.


----------



## Abraxas

Dreamer* said:


> *But the bottom line to all of this, is I have YET to come across any article, journal reference, etc. that states this cures DP. If anything in the study at Johns Hopkins it notes that to be cautious in testing the effects of these drugs (Ayhuasca included) they eliminate individuals with specific psychiatric disorders including Dissociative Disorders, Panic, etc.*


True, you wont find an article that states ayahuasca cures DP. But you will also not find any article stating that _anything_ ever cures DPD. Because if such article existed, then i guess this forum wouldnt even exist. its called dp*selfhelp* because of that, because psychiatry simply does not know how to handle this condition, and you are on your own, you have to help yourself, and look outside the box. so really, what is this non-sense about pie charts, statistics and articles. we already know that there is no known cure for DPD.

regardless, i think this discussion has gone way further than what i had intended. My only reason for posting this thread was to let people with DPD know that Ayahuasca exists, and that it helped *me* cure *my* *DPD*. I never said it will work for everyone, and i made it quite clear that ayahuasca is very very strong and powerful, and not for everyone. Of course it has its risks. I described how you can go through moments of hell/bad trips with it. Maybe you take it and like me, it helps you overcome DPD. maybe you take it and you go fucking insane, how would i know. So really people, do your own research, do some risk-analysis, maybe if you ve been with DPD for so long and tried many therapies and medications unsuccesfuly, maybe you want to give it a shot. maybe not. just trust your heart, if you feel its call, dont be afraid. if you dont, be wise and stay away from it.
and that really is all.

I hope some have found this thread useful/interesting, sorry if at times i might seem a bit arrogant with what i say, i guess its because i get frustuated, but honestly my only intention here in the forum is to help, i just wanted to share my possitive experience with you guys, i know what DPD feels like, and i know its hard to say the least. i hoped i could shed some light on this.. i owe ayahuasca much, but of course i can not guarantee its the best choice for everyone, i can only speak for myself.

if anyone is still interested in this medicine, and wants to hear more about it, where best to take it, how to take it, how to prepare for it, what to expect, etc, you can email me. dont send a private message here cause im probably gonna take some time off the forum.

I hope you all get better soon

much love
Abraxas


----------



## Abraxas

i never said you claimed DP can not be cured. i think you are the one with poor reading comprehension.

also, true, it makes me feel that way, and that is what i was talking about, that the way you phrased those sentences made it subjectively look like you were implying that.

and really... who shared their anecdote about ayahuasca not being helpful for DPD? no one here tried ayahuasca as far as i know other than me. so, how can you share an anecdote about ayahuasca not helping your DPD if you didnt even try it.

man are you for real or are you just being a dick?
i did not say some one is hiding the cure for DPD. i just said that there is no known cure so far.

'Your thirst for understanding of reasoning seems reflective of your supposed curiosity of ayahuasca.'








wow. my thirst for understanding of reasoning.... seems reflective of my supposed curiosity of ayahuasca.... sorry i might be a bit slow but this really doesnt seem to make any sense. lets break it down:

my thirst for understanding of reasoning...
my thirst (my desire) for understanding (to understand) of reasoning (reason). I desire to understand reason. I wish to know how to reason? how do you know this is of my interest? are you psychic? or are you simply implying that my arguments are incoherent and therefore i do not 'know' reasoning, but wish to?

seems reflective of my supposed curiosity of ayahuasca...

My desire to understand reason seems reflective of my 'supposed' _curiosity_ of ayahausca.

so... what you are trying to say, in a quite weird way to say the least, is that my trying ayahuasca was a consequence of my desire to understand reason?
i wanted to understand REASON, so i became curious of AYAHUASCA? oh wait, i think is the other way round ,right? cause A is reflective of B, not B of A, so... My curiosity for ayahuasca triggered a desire to understand reasoning? I tried ayahuasca, had a spiritual experience, and that made me 'thirsty' for understanding how to reason, i got back home and immediately i started solving logical puzzles and searching wikipedia for logical fallacies and other nuances related to building arguments, like... the straw-man fallacy?









wow. this is a mind-fuck. not only that, but even my curiosity is under scrutiny. 'supposed'. so, wait:

My desire to understand reason seems reflective of my (fake) curiosity of ayahuasca.

brilliant. i think it is clear that the only fallacy here is *you*.









peace
Abraxas


----------



## Abraxas

h0e1r1e6t1i8c8 said:


> Anyway, you're beyond hope. Enjoy inducing DP and then "curing" it as the effects of the drug fade.
> 
> If anyone needs more reasons to avoid ayahuasca(DMT); it is a highly controlled substance in most countries, it tastes foul, nobody has ever called vomiting from alcohol a spiritual experience-purging, and you almost certainly will not be able take an accurately measured dose. Don't take this crackpot's word as gospel or the bird's, but do look into what the bird shared.










hmm my young padawan, you had to resort to insulting me in order to make your point stronger.

well, depending what you are vomiting. if you re vomiting dead parasites which ayahuasca has killed, then yeah, maybe its not 'spiritual', but definitely its healthy, at least its not comparable to vomiting due to alcohol poisoning. When ayahuasca kills parasites in your body, they release toxins, making you feel nauseous and initiating a vomiting reflex. its called Herxheimer Reaction (yeah you love those fancy words right?







).

yeah like a substance being legal or not is such a good indicator of it being good/bad.... cause well, our governments love us so much right? they only care about our health









you dont need to accurately measure a dose, as there is no overdose ,but if this troubles you, you can take a couple of drops (regular dose being say, 1/4 of a teacup), and work up from there.

so well, it seems you have more google-searching to do.

also, really man whats with this bird thing?







is that like your alter-ego personality??

'Don't take this crackpot's word as gospel or the bird's, _but do look into what *the bird *shared_.' fuck thats like, taken out of a movie, you're The Biiird (pronounced in a very smooth french-like voice and like, moving your right-hand, palm facing down, slowly and smoothly sideways and reaching out(in a kind of 45 degree angle) as you pronounce it, at about the height of your clavicles), you re that character who's very mysterious and warns the protagonist about some important shit but uses riddles and fancy words, like he's slipping in the real deal and he's cool about it, he's talking about the issue but keeping it cool, you know. bewaaare Mr. Blue, he's up to somethin. I can tell, listen to The Biiird, two black gooses and one raw turnip, the blak cat's searching, you will find it beneath the silver sphinx.







cool. im adding you as a friend









love
Abraxas


----------



## Guest

Hmmm, so you guys get to be friends and I'm the old bitchy lady? LOL.

Vomiting got me to thinking about something, and Abraxas, the point I've been trying to make all along.

One thing, I wish you had been more clear that you were angry with PSYCHIATRY and not "Westerrn Medicine" or the scientific method specifically. I have a lot of problems with psychiatry and psychiatric medications, and no, NO psychiatric medication, NONE are cures. I will say, however, that in Dr. Mauricio Sierra's medical textbook I keep pushing, *Depersonalization: A New Look At a Neglected Syndrome*, he discusses ALL theories he has encountered over the past 20+ years. Case studies in history, his own patients, his own research, that of others ... there ARE medications that seem to be more effective than others.

But there is no psychiatric disorder really that has a CURE ... and I mean schizophrenia, bipolar, OCD, etc. The brain is too complex. We don't know enough. But consider, we have also not found a vaccine for AIDS, diabetics must give themselves insulin to live, etc. So there are many physical and psychiatric problems we have NO CURE for. One usually uses the expression IN REMISSION or CONTROLLED.

I'd say one can be cured by antibiotics of various things such as strep throat, etc. But if you have a heart attack, you aren't "cured", you "recover", etc. CURE I think is more specific to certain illnesses vs. others. You can "FIX" a broken foot and it will get pretty much back to normal, but later in life you might have arthritis in it as a result of the break, etc. But I can personally vouch for the broken foot. Too many examples.

Anyway, my point all along here has been:
1. In my research, I found that Ayahuasca/DMT (and that comes up as the same though I understand there is the MAOI factor involved in metabolizing this plant) is NOT recommended for people with DP/DR. And I posted an article on the research guidelines for using ayahuasca that hopefully WILL help individual's with certain psychiatric problems -- but in that case, ADDICTION, seems to be the #1. use for those who visit these retreats and in the Netherlands. It is also used in a spiritual sense. I understand you connect mind/spiritual in a way different from the way I do.

I am not someone who will say here that DP is "enlightenment." Many say this. Or that mental illness of any kind is "enlightenment" although it gives many people a different way of seeing the world and many BECAUSE of this, can lend new insight into the world -- Temple Grandin (autism), Elyn Saks (schizoprhenia), John Nash (schizoprhenia), Ted Turner (bipolar) and about a zillion famous artists, musicians, writers, poets. We ALL have something to offer. But some can't take the suffering. And of all things, this dude from Counting Crows whose name I just forgot (DP/DR) and Harris Goldberg (producer/writer) who made "NUMB" ABOUT DP.

2. I have also been trying to say that the molecular configurations of PLANTS or "herbal remedies" and many drugs we take BY PRESCRIPTION, or over the counter are THE SAME. First to come was the plant, then the configuration is replicated (I'm making this VERY simplified) for mass marketing, and control of the quality and amount of the substance. This is why St. John's Wort should not be taken WITH an SSRI ... both are acting in the same way. MAOIs and Ayahuasca should not be taken together. Only a medical doctor or a shaman would know this. Also, diet is important. You can't eat fermented items with MAOIs and hence Ayahuasca.

I remember I took once one horrible time as a kid when I had accidently ingested something poisonous. My mother was a doctor and knew what to do, and we went to the pharmacy and got IPECAC which INDUCES VOMITING, the purpose being to remove the poison from my stomach ASAP before it could enter my bloodstream.

Info on that ....

1: the dried rhizome and roots of either of two tropical American plants (Cephaelis acuminata and C. ipecacuanha) of the madder family used especially as *a source of emetine;* also : either of these plants

2: an emetic and expectorant drug that *contains emetine and is prepared from ipecac especially *as a syrup for use in treating accidental poisoning
See ipecac defined for kids »

*ip·e·cac also ipe·ca·cu·a·nha
Origin of IPECAC*
*Portuguese ipecacuanha, from Tupi i̵pekakwánʸa, from i̵péka duck + akwánʸa penis
First Known Use: 1682*

The Rx DRUG is essentially the PLANT DRUG ... same thing ... made easy to administer the correct dose and manufactured so you know what you are getting. My mother wasn't going to go looking for this crazy plant in 1970 or whenever, she found it at the drugstore, gave it to me and I puked my guts out and got the poison out of my digestive tract BEFORE it entered my bloodstream.
-------------------
The point:
1. Here is an example of yet another South American plant (Portuguese is a Brazilian language, and don't ask me why it means duck penis, honest to GOD! LOL.) that is used to induce VOMITING. It is an "herbal remedy" -- but the same compound can be found in your pharmacy. It's the SAME THING. It is a drug/medicine/plant. Based on the basic elements that exist on this Earth ... elements in the periodic table. And subsequently the chemical compounds built from them.

2. As noted, this medicine/plant/drug to induce vomiting came into being as Ipecac first used "in the Western world" I'd gather in 1682. No doubt, someone had found that plant centuries before.

-------------------
Finally:
1. We know your DP WENT AWAY when you went through an Ayahuasca CEREMONY. And in a sense it finally struck me again, that both the PREPARATION FOR, THE CEREMONY ITSELF, AND WORKING THROUGH THE EXPERIENCE IS AS IMPORTANT AS THE AYAHUASCA ITSELF.

2. You can match this with the fact that in psychiatry the ideal situation ... and I'm speaking SPECIFICALLY about psychiatry ... and making no judgement that it is GOOD OR BAD ... is if you were given medications and also given GUIDANCE, CBT, THERAPY, etc. by a psychiatrist/therapist.

In both cases you are in a safe surrounding. In both cases, NOT EVERYONE WILL RESPOND IN THE SAME MANNER.
*h0e1r1e6t1i8c8*, this is what I mean by "everyone is unique." At the Harvard Brain Bank, all the brains autopsied so far have been noted to be "like snowflakes or fingerprints" -- not one completely identical. And likewise, humans are very similar obviously, and yet our responses to treatment, medication VARY. Someone can respond immediately to a drug, someone else can have a horrible reaction, another feels nothing.

*I never intended this to be an argument pro or anti-psychiatry, or an argument against spirtual faith, etc. I had only a few goals:*
- Understand more about Ayahuasca
- Make MY personal point that I feel it is unwise for individuals on this board to look to this treatment, THOUGH THEY HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO DO SO, as many do not have proper diagnoses.
*Which leads me to my last very important question. And again forgive me if you said this.
Were you officially diagnosed by any professional as having DP/DR? Did anyone say you had HPPD? Did you have any anxiety disorder or any other condition BEFORE you ingested the drugs that brought on your DP/DR? And I really wish you would tell about your adventures in Brazil!*

And I wish you would look at some of the articles I posted. The 17 page one is fascinating and has many GOOD things to say about Ayahuasca.


----------



## Totally DP'D

If spiritual experiences can be chemically induced (by Ayahuasca, any other plant, or synthetic chemical) then surely it is not unreasonable to say that spiritual experiences, and consciousness itself are simply emergent properties of our very complex brains? I'm not saying that this is definitely the case, but the fact that chemicals modulate neurotransmitters in the brain and cause detectable changes in consiousness e.g. Alcohol, SSRIs , LSD etc surely means that consciousness and therefore spitituality are 'just' functions of material brains.


----------



## = n

Totally DP said:


> If spiritual experiences can be chemically induced (by Ayahuasca, any other plant, or synthetic chemical) then surely it is not unreasonable to say that spiritual experiences, and consciousness itself are simply emergent properties of our very complex brains? I'm not saying that this is definitely the case, but the fact that chemicals modulate neurotransmitters in the brain and cause detectable changes in consiousness e.g. Alcohol, SSRIs , LSD etc surely means that consciousness and therefore spitituality are 'just' functions of material brains.


Yes, that's fine by me. Except your 'just' and your 'simply' suggests that they are thereby less profound. Which they are not. To me there is nothing more enchanted than the physical stuff of the universe. A spiritual realm made of quarks, muons, synapses, galaxies.

There is a strange kind of undercurrent in western materialism that 'true reality' is to be found in the ultimate debasement of things.

Emergent properties of our complex material brains can_ even _give rise to consciousness and spiritual experiences. Molecules give rise to Mozart. Astonishing!


----------



## Totally DP'D

That's why I put 'just' in quotes. I actually find it astonishing and incredible that matter can give rise to consciousness. That doesn't mean it isn't true though. The whole universe seems to built on the property of emergence.

For example: Physics->Chemistry->Biology->Evolution->Consciousness->Mozart in an ascending ladder of emergence. Absolutely fascinating.

I'm currently reading some books by Susan Blackmore on consciousness. Also going to buy 'The Ego Tunnel' by Thomas Metzinger

I'm an electronics engineer by trade, so I'm also investigating neural networks.


----------



## Brando2600




----------



## Soul Seeker

= n said:


> There is a strange kind of undercurrent in western materialism that 'true reality' is to be found in the ultimate debasement of things.


Very well put. I totally agree.


----------



## Guest

Totally DP said:


> If spiritual experiences can be chemically induced (by Ayahuasca, any other plant, or synthetic chemical) then surely it is not unreasonable to say that spiritual experiences, and consciousness itself are simply emergent properties of our very complex brains? I'm not saying that this is definitely the case, but the fact that chemicals modulate neurotransmitters in the brain and cause detectable changes in consiousness e.g. Alcohol, SSRIs , LSD etc surely means that consciousness and therefore spitituality are 'just' functions of material brains.


I think that the whole science about our brain is right in a way, but it looks at it from the wrong perspective. It has a blurry understanding about what is cause and what is cause and what is effect. I think that low serotonin level f.e. is not the cause of let's say depression, it's the effect of depression. Alcohol is not CAUSING you to feel good, it has an effect on your brain and you CHOOSE to feel good.

the bottom line is whether you believe in FREE WILL or not. if you don't believe in free will, then what can help you?


----------



## Visual

*Vomiting got me to thinking about something*

Some of life's best insights come during our greatest indignations &#8230;

*&#8230; that chemicals modulate neurotransmitters in the brain and cause detectable changes in consiousness &#8230;consciousness and therefore spirituality are 'just' functions of material brains*

Depends on how one defines 'spirituality', but yea, you're right.

Consciousness for humans is electro-chemical. We are exotic 'dust' - and there is no shame in it. Nor should it lessen life's 'wonders'. Regardless of religious persuasion/non-persuasion.

*There is a strange kind of undercurrent in western materialism that 'true reality' is to be found in the ultimate debasement of things.*

Perhaps the 'grass is greener on the other side' - dissatisfaction with life as defined as 'material' so the answer must be part of a non-material mystery. Or perhaps I didn't understand a word you wrote

*the bottom line is whether you believe in FREE WILL or not. if you don't believe in free will, then what can help you?*

Definitely have free will (otherwise what is the point of playing this game - lets party our brains out).

Perhaps it is just a language/culture thing that makes you sound somewhat dogmatic about the power of the mind.

*Brando*, love your artwork (and music). You should save it to a site the hangs around a while (really miss my 'old fart, pull my finger' portrait).

As for this thread, *Curing DPD with Ayahuasca*,

*Abraxes* feels he got his brain reset from Ayahuasca (cured)

*nuncle*, on the other hand, feels he got DPed from Ayahuasca

One mans medicine is another man's poison.

There is one member here [who may step forward if he wishes] who felt that DP was brought on by weed. So he smoked a whole lot several time to see if it would fix it. Now he hears voices and sees things and has to take anti-psychotics.

In the end, lots of experiences here, lots of ideas, lots of things tried, plenty of philosophy. All we can do is share and try to grow.

Wow - all this use of big words and strange phrases. I think in reading this thread I might have popped a neural synaptic connection somewhere&#8230; Just don't know if it was a physical synapses, a spiritual synapses, some cosmic synapses, a blasphemic aberration, or just total mind meltdown. Definitely not an orgasm (anyone sneeze?)

Peace brothers &#8230;


----------



## Pablo

Visual Dude said:


> *nuncle*, on the other hand, feels he got DPed from Ayahuasca


Until he replies with more details I don't believe it gave him dp, he just sort of threw that comment in without going into any more specifics and hasn't replied when asked for more info


----------



## Guest

Visual Dude said:


> *the bottom line is whether you believe in FREE WILL or not. if you don't believe in free will, then what can help you?*
> 
> Definitely have free will (otherwise what is the point of playing this game - lets party our brains out).
> 
> Perhaps it is just a language/culture thing that makes you sound somewhat dogmatic about the power of the mind.


if you believe in free will and fight, you will be okay. I guarantee.

if you don't, well, you're stupid.

peace and all the best


----------



## Guest

Lowrey said:


> I think that the whole science about our brain is right in a way, but it looks at it from the wrong perspective. It has a blurry understanding about what is cause and what is cause and what is effect. I think that low serotonin level f.e. is not the cause of let's say depression, it's the effect of depression. Alcohol is not CAUSING you to feel good, it has an effect on your brain and you CHOOSE to feel good.
> 
> the bottom line is whether you believe in FREE WILL or not. if you don't believe in free will, then what can help you?


*First of all VisualDude thanks for the ROFLMAO over my vomit comment, LOLOLOLOLOL.*

And Lowrey, it would seem your comments fall more in the realm of psychoanalysis, and though Freud believed strictly in talk therapy (as do his proteges) HE believed there was a biological underpinning for mental illness IN THE BRAIN. It wasn't "hysteria" -- a "wandering uterus" (THAT is not of one's free will! LOL, and quite insulting to women.)-- but ultimately something gone awry in the brain.

And you mention Free Will. This again denies the concept that the brain can malfunction. I claim this is illogical, as *the brain can fail to malfunction in so many ways that affect us why eliminate psychiatric disorders? I can state for a fact that many physical illnesses can CAUSE changes in personality. A STROKE can change a person's personality, a head trauma.* ... my mother was a perfect example with Alzheimer's. At a certain stage she became paranoid in the exact same manner as any paranoid psychiatric patient. Her brain and EEG were compared twice, 1990 and 1992, and there was clear degeneration of her brain tissue and at the time the brain had degenerated enough she became psychotic. This phase changed after her brain further deteriorated. If you saw the deterioration of an Alzheimer's patient -- and we know this is a medical disorder -- I don't think you would see cause and effect much more clearly.

Same if you saw someone with suicidal depression. *How do you "make" yourself depressed, or for that matter MAKE yourself have post-partum depression?* We are back to the days when an exorcism in the Church would release Satan and cure epilepsy.

Also, Free Will ... does one have free will to overcome ANY disease of any part of the body? One can have as strong an attitude as possible. But in the end the trajectory of any illness, like AIDS, is dictated by the BODY.

*I see this POV as one reflecting fear. That is the worst thing to lose is our SELF to a mental illness. Look at how many people here fear schizoprhenia -- but they can't WILL themselves into schizophrenia. Why? It is a MEDICAL ILLNESS.* And why are mental illnesses still stigmatized? Because of these very concepts -- that the brain does not get ill. That someone has the WILL to get better from OCD, or depression, or even schizophrneia by SHEER FORCE OF WILL. If you have encountered such sick individuals you wouldn't say that.

It is the same as saying a diabetic has Free Will to make his/her pancreas work properly.

Why do we not see the brain as another organ. If every other organ in the body can fail in one way or another, or malfunction ... did the individual CAUSE the change him/herself? Why then do we ultimately die? Things slowly wear out.

Whoever said there is nothing LESS mysterious and miraculous about the brain if we look at it this way is spot on. *Visual Dude *as said this numerous times. There is a balance between faith and medicine. We can't always find it, but I have said, there are plenty of doctors and scientists who have SPIRITUAL faith. Yet they still treat brain disorders as they would any MEDICAL disorder.

Still, because of the "Free Will" concept, the largest mental institution in the US is the LA County Jail. No one gives a hoot about the mentally ill. They are still considered "trash." There is not enough money for individuals to get treatment. They have three places to go, the streets, jail for petty crimes, or die.


----------



## Guest

Lowrey said:


> if you believe in free will and fight, you will be okay. I guarantee.
> 
> if you don't, well, you're stupid.
> 
> peace and all the best


We wrote at the same time. To say "you're stupid" if you don't believe in Free Will, well that's not particularly constructive.
Why couldn't you free yourself of your own DP/DR? Why did it take so long?
And it is your tone of debate. If you disagree is it really necessary to say someone of the opposite POV is stupid?


----------



## Guest

Dreamer* said:


> We wrote at the same time. To say "you're stupid" if you don't believe in Free Will, well that's not particularly constructive.
> Why couldn't you free yourself of your own DP/DR? Why did it take so long?
> And it is your tone of debate. If you disagree is it really necessary to say someone of the opposite POV is stupid?


if you don't believe in free will, instead you believe in "brain malfunction", I will not waste one more minute for responding to you. I just can't comment anything more.

yes it IS stupid imo sorry.

when I mean free will, I don't say you can pop out of DP only because you "willing" to do it. that's not how free will works. you won't be a millionare just by "willing" to be one either, but that doesn't mean you don't have free will.

why I mention free will is, if you believe that emotional "illnesses" are caused by some chemical imbalances and brain problems, that belief, if you think about it more deeply, leads to the conclusion that EVERYTHING you do, think and feel is caused by molecules reacting to each other, which means you don't believe in free will. chemical reactions will have the same result everytime, there's no place for free will there.

but if you realize that you have free will, that leads to the conclusion that you free will is what changes your brain chemistry, and not the other way around.

but if you can't realize that you have free will, you're just stupid imo. I can't find a better word.


----------



## Guest

Lowrey said:


> but if you can't realize that you have free will, you're just stupid imo. I can't find a better word.


Well, the debate of Free Will has been going on for centuries. And it can be a constructive debate or a food fight. You turn it into a food fight.
Are you literally saying that someone with schizophrenia for example can WILL it ON themselves or WILL it away?

You can simply say, "This is my POV." Not be a bully on a playground and say "You're stupid."

We agree to disagree.

As noted, I don't see your having any type of career in diplomacy, lol.

Fine, I'm stupid. So are millions of others who merely question the concept. Do you believe God controls all of our actions? I don't in THAT debate. Hence I believe in Free Will. Things aren't as simple as you make them sound.

Cheers.


----------



## Visual

*if you believe that emotional "illnesses" are caused by some chemical imbalances and brain problems, that belief, if you think about it more deeply, leads to the conclusion that EVERYTHING you do, think and feel is caused by molecules reacting to each other, which means you don't believe in free will. chemical reactions will have the same result everytime, there's no place for free will there.*

One _might_ conclude that. Have you ever found yourself repeating a story or argument?

*but if you realize that you have free will, that leads to the conclusion that you free will is what changes your brain chemistry, and not the other way around.*

It works both ways actually.

*if you believe in free will and fight, you will be okay. I guarantee.*

I agree with fighting it (actively working for a solution). Curious, some on the forum say that they start to get better once they 'accept' it.

I get tired and rest but I'll grow until I'm dead!

*but if you can't realize that you have free will, you're just stupid imo. I can't find a better word.*

'Learned helplessness' is very common and at the heart of much depression. Fatalistic viewpoints can freeze a person. Governments, employers, abusers, etc. have made use of techniques to bind people this way for their own selfish interest.

_stupid_ (adjective)

1. Lacking intelligence or common sense 
2. Dazed and unable to think clearly
3. Used to express exasperation or boredom

#2 is quite common with DP.

However, due to several reasons (bad 'programming', pride, dignity), calling a person stupid doesn't help them.

So all you need to do is get a vocabulary builder and social studies book and work on finding words that motivate in a positive way. Remember, people are carrying a lot of negativity. And just like electrons on a power line, negative repels negative.


----------



## gill

DP is involuntary. Just like our hearts beating. The only free-will, is how we decide to act in response to it.


----------



## gill

This thread is getting confusing....
Taking drugs led to my DP. So drugs caused it. But, I chose to take the drugs, so I caused it. But maybe the choice to take them was based on an involuntary feeling created by some noodles I ate that night. Noodles caused my DP....

Huh?
This disintegration of ideas towards some absolute truth or cause just gets confusing.

In my experience, why not examine it for what it is now, then try things which may help based on that current understanding, and if those things work or don't, then I feel I know something about DP, pragmatically ...


----------



## Pablo

h0e1r1e6t1i8c8 said:


> What sort of details would you require to believe someone that DMT induces DP? If you wanted to ask my pet bird questions about DMT inducing DP, I'll translate for you.


I would like to know a lot of details about set and setting and how they think it caused dp, many drugs cause temporary altered states which may happen if you give a bird a drug, but the bird wouldn't stay in that state unless they were severely frightened or stressed out when on it. The whole healing potential of these sorts of drugs is that they bring your barriers down so in a sense you go temporarily insane or psychotic, which allows you to face up to whats inside of you and thereby removing the tension of trying to keep it out of consciousness, so to say they are bad because they cause those states just means you don't understand how they potentially heal.


----------



## baking_pineapple

Just ordered mimosa hostilis and banisteriopsis caapi, the two active ingredients in ayahuasca. Don't have the money to go to Peru, so going to try to brew it myself and see how it goes. Any advice?


----------



## Soul Seeker

baking_pineapple said:


> Just ordered mimosa hostilis and banisteriopsis caapi, the two active ingredients in ayahuasca. Don't have the money to go to Peru, so going to try to brew it myself and see how it goes. Any advice?


I wouldn't do it, I think half the effectiveness is in the ceremony. I guess at least use a trip-sitter?


----------



## Abraxas

baking_pineapple said:


> Just ordered mimosa hostilis and banisteriopsis caapi, the two active ingredients in ayahuasca. Don't have the money to go to Peru, so going to try to brew it myself and see how it goes. Any advice?


man i really dont recommend you take that stuff.

thats not ayahuasca. ayahuasca is a tea/brew which takes many hours or even days to prepare, and its done in a given alchemical way. its not just mixing the two plants together, plus ayahuasca is caapi plus p. viridis, not mimosa. really, you need the real deal and you need to be guided by a shaman, or at least having it served to you by someone who has experience with ayahuasca. really, dont do it, it could go horribly wrong. you dont need to go to peru, just look it up im sure they serve ayahuasca almost everywhere... where you from???

but really, i recommend you dont take that stuff you bought off the web. unless of course you really feel thats what you should do, then... have a nice trip








email me if you need some further advice

love
abraxas


----------



## Abraxas

just to share my view on this matter/spirit duality.

I do not deny that taking a substance like say, ayahuasca, alters one's mindstate. also, if you get hit on your head and damage say, the fronto-temporal lobe, you re in for a drastic change in your mind. 
but, what is ayahuasca or the brain made of anyway? you call it matter... but, what is matter? is it really just some solid, impersonal, objective, 'real', fixed, object? modern science (quantum physics, etc) show it really is not. Then quantum experiments have been revealing the important connection between experiment and observer, how the act of observation changes the observed system, that 'matter' acts differently according wether you are observing it or not.

thats one thing to consider... we think of matter as billiard balls colliding together and determining our world through causality/determinism/probability. but when you get to the core of it, to the quantum scale, it just 'vanishes', it stops being so real, scientists notice that they really do not have a reality of their own, a reality indepnedent of the act of observation, of the act of us measuring it. Subject and Object can not be separated. To talk about Object without Subject has no meaning.

So, what or who is this Subject? could it really be just a random result of matter (object) colliding together, and giving rise to an observer, which looks back at this matter that gave it birth?

or, could it be that the Observer is the 'real' thing, and matter is just a transitory subjective phenomena that this observer experiences/perceives when 'asking certain questions' about that which it is observing. ie, you have a chair right? and you know nothing of this chair, it just appears to you. you can touch it, smell it, taste it, move it around and hear the sounds it makes, or simply see its form. then, you get a massive microscope (made of apparently the same stuff, which you can only perceive through these senses) and by looking through it you manage to 'see' its 'building blocks', or deduce that they are there as a result of experimentation. but really, all there is is perception. and though. you perceive something, then you think about what you are perceiving and you derive conclusions, and build your world-view. but that chair can be 'denied'. that is, you could at least consider the possibility that it is not real, ie, it could be an ilusion, a mirrage.
however, you can never deny the reality of the observer! that which is observing, the Subject. hence, one could then come to believe that Subject is more 'real' than object.

now, this subject learns that he can not deny its existence, as experience is subjective. now, he takes this other 'object' (which he also can only perceive through the senses), this object is ayahuasca. He ingests this object, this composite arrangement of perceptions that he labels ayahuasca. now, as he does so in time it coincides that his/her mind-state changes. then he establishes a causality. 'ingesting' this object, alters my mind. good. this however is not a proof that object comes before subject, because what changes are the mind *contents*, not the subject. so, how could mind contents (inner images, thoughts, feelings, etc) be altered by an object? two options: the object is made of solid, 'real' matter, and the mind contents are also made of 'matter', hence the plausible interaction.
or: objects are mande of 'mind' contents too. objects are 'condensed' thoughts, condensed intentions, condensed images, precipitates from the Mind. in this view, the only real thing is Subject, intention, will, Mind. mind's contents, including perception of objects (chair, ayahuasca), are precipitates, condensed intentions, that what is intended.

in this view, you are in control. you are not to be a victim of objects (matter), but you realize Will is above and beyond object, that Subject is unmovable, and that will is the charioteer, the true master of one's destiny. there is nothing, nothing that will can not overcome. the only limits are set by our imagination. also, imagination is what can and will eventually set you free *imagination is the key.*

i d like to share something i 'received' while i was having a spiritual experience in brazil:

Happiness is the fruit of a vision. 

cultivate your will and you are bound to overcome DPD or any other obstacle in life. trust yourself. you are the child hero.


----------



## Abraxas

Regardless, you can know everything there is to know about matter, about evolution, about the universe, but still you would not know anything about your Self. Information is not knowledge, knowledge is not wisdom. We seek for 'the stuff', for the building blocks, when we should be seeking the Seeker. One day the snake will bite its own tail and become self-aware.

You are the light-bearer (subject), and you shine that light (Intellect, will) unto matter (object) and foolishly you believe that the light is contained in the object, and you go on to claim that the object gave birth to the light, and to the bearer. Its like watching an image, and thinking the image gave birth to vision itself.

I ll read some quantum physics if you read some Plato.

peace


----------



## Guest

Ah what the heck, I'll add some more, but yes, this is getting confusing and way off track.

Abraxas, it was my understanding that your main complaint is psychiatry, or more specific the "Western" study of the brain.

You said you don't have a problem with the scientific method. However, I found this interesting quotation from Carl Sagan. Yes, he was an atheist, but a man of passion, seeking out "the unseen" in space. He found the world amazing and wonderful, but, well you said to study Plato ... his is one of many ways of viewing the world. And it is neither better or worse than other perspectives, it just IS.

Carl Sagan said of Plato:
"Science and mathematics were to be removed from the hands of the merchants and the artisans. This tendency found its most effective advocate in a follower of Pythagoras named Plato." and: "He (Plato) believed that ideas were far more real than the natural world. He advised the astronomers not to waste their time observing the stars and planets. It was better, he believed, just to think about them. Plato expressed hostility to observation and experiment. He taught contempt for the real world and disdain for the practical application of scientific knowledge. Plato's followers succeeded in extinguishing the light of science and experiment that had been kindled by Democritus and the other Ionians."[58][59]

There is an ebb and flow through out history. We believed the world was flat until science proved otherwise. We thought those with epilepsy were held by demons and needed exorcisms until we started to understand the brain.

There has to be a middle ground. One can be a scientist and have faith in any number of theologies or concepts of the world.
As many have said, you can have both.
*I see this as an argument now of the meaning of life. That is something for individuals to sort out for themselves. And I see that as the ultimate unanswerable question. But each of us here have to pursue our lives with some foundation of some sort. It determines what actions we feel are most appropriate to take in our daily lives. Our personal "religions", our political bias', etc. dictate in a sense how we approach what I believe to be most real, and again as was noted before -- the actual physical world itself. The tree does fall in the forest, and it disturbs the air, even if there is no one/nothing to see/hear it. That gives me comfort.*
I enjoy the Ayahuasca debate though.

*But again, for the last time ... Abraxas, could you share with us your experience in Brazil. I want to know how you found where to go, who guided you, whom you went with, how long was your visit, how long was the ceremony, etc. Or will you explain why you won't talk about it. The examples of the "tourist retreats" do not sound like the experience you had. PLEASE. I really am interested!*


----------



## Pablo

Is anyone else thinking of going to Peru or Brazil to try it? pm me


----------



## Visual

*I see this as an argument now of the meaning of life&#8230;*


----------



## baking_pineapple

Here's a pretty basic question that I think has been largely neglected up to this point: How and why would ayahuasca cure DP? Well, I do think it's possible, at least temporarily, for this to happen and if you're willing to indulge my ingenuous musings, here's my theory&#8230;

For many of us who view life from the top-down (that is, as higher order rationality searching for a more basic communion with life), the entheogenic experience functions as a substitute for something that should have already naturally occurred between us and our environments. That is, a social integration, the fusion between us and a nuclear tribal unit, a blurring of the lines between self and other.

How could we lose such a basic connection with life? Probably because some experience within our environment disrupted our ability to naturally communicate with life, that is it fucked with our biological language, the emotions. When this happened, we lost connection with the life force, the divine Goddess and became relegated to an abstract/detached/depersonalized sphere of life-i.e., the life of the mind and its vast repository of constructs and deductions. As another natural, inevitable result we became eviscerated of the thing that sustains the well-being of mind in the first place, the body (which in its most pure, phenomenological expressions of emotion constitutes our "spiritual essence").

To elaborate, it is likely that the body, the feminine source from and by which the mind developed, was reactively repelled as we found that it contradicted the truths that our reality was forcing us to accept. We begin to look on this body, our spiritual nexus, as the deceiver, as the thing that was keeping us from living in artificial harmony with the world-as-others-have-created-it (e.g., "It is this great sorrow, this all-encompassing sense of wrongness, of moral disgust, this pure longing to love, be loved, and do good on others that needs to be changed or repressed as I am too weak and too dependent to do anything about the depravity of these others"). Of course, none of this occurred consciously; and thus we did not realize the lurid absurdity of rejecting the biological certainty of emotions and our natural imperative to fight for them just for the sake of being able to more completely submit to a fallen world.

If we were moral, rational beings (who recognized that our universal spiritual imperative consists in recreating a natural state of abundance, an indelible engram from our time spent in sublime anoesis within the womb) then we would have recognized our mistake. However, sad as it is, morality or rationality is not very high up on the hierarchy of evolutionary needs; rather, we are driven by inveterate programming that tells us there is a scarcity of resources and ergo we must withdrawal from others since they are potential competitors. This, even more mournfully, precludes us from the realization that they, like us, are nothing more than cells of a greater organic body. Thus, essentially we become a body divided against itself, arbitrarily attacking parts for the sake of advancing others. Instead of pooling the offerings of each unique, discrete component that constitutes our essence, we isolate ourselves to the point of disintegration and illness.

From my experience, true knowledge and health is something only granted to those organisms that find themselves part of an organic, interconnected, and self-sustaining support network. As a part of such a network, the most basic, eminent feeling they experience is all-encompassing warmth, supported to the extent that their consciousness exists as nothing more than an intersubjective derivative. If this is the case, they will find their desires to be indistinguishable from the desires of the group, and their lives will come to peacefully and inevitably unfold within the parameters of an irrefutable "swarm" logic.

This is the natural state many organisms are born into and remain in for their entire existence, for example fungus, plants, and ants. Humans, on the other hand, must develop within a proper social framework to experience themselves as interconnected beings&#8230;.. for many of us, though, through some sociobiological disruption or another, we find ourselves in a state of permanent disconnection from our environment and thus experience unreality. I believe that experiences on mushrooms, ayahuasca, and a host of other naturally occurring enetheogens bring us into communion with that particular organism's experience of life---one of consummate communality and interconnectedness. This would explain the therapeutic benefits of such experiences, as it essentially helps to regain our lost sense of oneness with the earth and ultimately reconstitutes our personality into one of a serene interconnected being functioning in perfect harmony with its parts. However, depending on how long we have been disconnected from our human source, we may grow dependent on these substances for sustaining this basic sense of connectedness with life. This may not be good.


----------



## Guest

baking_pineapple said:


> From my experience, true knowledge and health is something only granted to those organisms that find themselves part of an organic, interconnected, and self-sustaining support network. As a part of such a network, the most basic, eminent feeling they experience is all-encompassing warmth, supported to the extent that their consciousness exists as nothing more than an intersubjective derivative. *If this is the case, they will find their desires to be indistinguishable from the desires of the group, and their lives will come to peacefully and inevitably unfold within the parameters of an irrefutable "swarm" logic.*
> 
> This is the natural state many organisms are born into and remain in for their entire existence, for example fungus, plants, and ants. Humans, on the other hand, must develop within a proper social framework to experience themselves as interconnected beings&#8230;.. for many of us, though, through some sociobiological disruption or another, we find ourselves in a state of permanent disconnection from our environment and thus experience unreality. I believe that experiences on mushrooms, ayahuasca, and a host of other naturally occurring enetheogens bring us into communion with that particular organism's experience of life---one of consummate communality and interconnectedness. This would explain the therapeutic benefits of such experiences, as it essentially helps to regain our lost sense of oneness with the earth and ultimately reconstitutes our personality into one of a serene interconnected being functioning in perfect harmony with its parts. However, depending on how long we have been disconnected from our human source, we may grow dependent on these substances for sustaining this basic sense of connectedness with life. This may not be good.


Dear baking_pineapple,

That is quite an eloquent post. I like it, though I may not *at this time* connect with it. I am more curious about these alternatives, but still do not wish to mess with them, as the more I study them, the more concerned I get that I PERSONALLY would do very poorly taking any recreational drug.

My biggest problem is this is that the MAJORITY of human beings DO NOT experience chronic DP/DR (some just short episodes) that are debilitating as they are to many on this board. Said individuals also come from such divergent cultures I have to ask what culture has achieved this type of unity with the Earth?

I found a list of "the most peaceful" cultures somewhere around here, but even within those groups there is tension, the need to express individuality, etc.

Also, there are many of faith in this world, and about 16% without any spiritual connection, and most do not have DP/DR. I KNOW such people. I know people of Faith, one form or another, and individuals who WORK THE LAND -- I have a friend who works a farm and she has tremendous anxiety, etc. She had it since childhood. But working in isolation with only her husband and being with animals has given her more peace, but (she is now 60) no relief from chronic anxiety.

I agree, we benefit greatly from connectedness with the Earth, and it would seem that modern society has certainly taken that away from us -- save if we make conscious choices to go out into nature. But again, *not every person is plagued by the thoughts we have here on the board -- they have NO CLUE what we are talking about.* And I personally cannot begin to find a connectedness with Nature -- really anymore -- but even as a child I was so sad that I could not enjoy the outdoors which was what kids my age did all the time. I grew up in the 1960s/70s when all we did was play outdoors together. Interacted with nature on a regular basis. No computers, cell phones, not a billion stations on TV. And think of generations past before the industrial revolution.

IDK, this whole discussion should be placed in the alternative medicine or spiritual section I guess.

BUT, I do believe there is a change in the way Western medicine is looking at these drugs. But drugs, the majority, come directly from nature. The oldest drugs -- Opium and alcohol. There is a swing back to studying the potential of hallucinogens to help individuals with many psychiatric disorders. But it is challenging. It can be dangerous as are all drug trials. Drugs are toxic. (I was reading about this last night). Primary protocol in Western medicine is to determine toxicity -- and this means understanding how these drugs work (as best as possible) and what the negative side-effects are. Every drug out there has the potential to kill someone.

At any rate, I really like what you wrote, and how you wrote it. A good bit of it makes sense. But even in cultures we see "closer to the Earth" have suffering, physical and mental.

*We all have to do the best we can with every challenge.
And again, whatever path it takes out of this DP/DR, I say go for it.

*


----------



## Guest

And Visual. ROFLMAO -- again.


----------



## Visual

Dreamer* said:


> And Visual. ROFLMAO -- again.


You are welcome.

All the 'expanding' philosophies reminds one of the importance of getting back to basics&#8230;


----------



## Abraxas

just to post a quick reply to Dreamer and Pineapple (i ll try to come back later and make a proper one):

I did already recount about my experience with ayahuasca, including where i went to, with whom, how was the setting, etc (in one post where i was replying someone who asked me wether it was for real, cant remember who or where, i ll look it up), and how it helped me cure my DPD (first post).

To sum up, i think ayahuasca can cure DPD because it purges a lot of blocked psychic energy which is kind of rotten and is being blocked by DPD (so as not to allow it to come into conssciousness - DPD being a defense mechanism so as to defend ego from this psychic content). This stuck psychic energy could be due to emotional blocks/trauma, or due to bad trips with psychedelics, or simply as a result of our very sick environment (city life), we get psychologically contaminated/polluted by our artificial, ill environment which detaches us from nature and from our true selves.

Dreamer: Plato is just the founder of idealism. of course his view is not perfect or absolutely true. I just suggested him to read some Plato simply because it is the other side of the coin (materialism/physicalism being one side). Personally i do believe ideas to be more 'real' than the forms (objects) they assume in this world. I find it absurd that matter/objects could come up with ideas such as Justice and Freedom.

however, and if Plato really claimed what you quoted, i do not agree with him on this point. I do believe it is wise to observe phenomena (objects, planets, etc), but because they 'remind us' of that which antecedes them, that which antecedes phenomena/forms: Ideas, Mind. Observing the universe and its beauty brings us closer to that which is 'responsible for it', ie the Mind. To observe a beautiful flower reminds us of the ideal of Beauty, and we are able to rise above form and commune with the immortal realm of ideas, of mind, of nous. anyway, i do believe in a Godhead, and in the One, in the unborn and ineffable, I believe in the Archons and i believe in the Child God, i believe in the holy spirit which has descended unto darkness, and i believe in its capacity for redemption and for yoking with the pleroma/godhead by realizing its true nature. of course, this are just beliefs, and i only have them cause they help me live a more happy life, and i feel closer to something real. it might be naive in the eyes of science, but in my eyes maybe science is naive, to look for Subject in object. still, i agree, there is no true worldview.. there are just some which cause dis-ease, and some which bring peace of mind. im just trying to say, choose wisely.


----------



## Guest

Abraxas said:


> To sum up, i think ayahuasca can cure DPD because it purges a lot of blocked psychic energy which is kind of rotten and is being blocked by DPD (so as not to allow it to come into conssciousness - DPD being a defense mechanism so as to defend ego from this psychic content).


I have no logical explanation why, but if I listen to my intiution, it sounds TRUE.


----------



## snow storm

Pablo said:


> Is anyone else thinking of going to Peru or Brazil to try it? pm me


I'll join you in a couple of years from now if Im still stuck in the same situation...


----------



## TheStarter

Ok bottom line,

Who's gonna volunteer to take this ?


----------



## baking_pineapple

baking_pineapple said:


> Just ordered mimosa hostilis and banisteriopsis caapi, the two active ingredients in ayahuasca. Don't have the money to go to Peru, so going to try to brew it myself and see how it goes. Any advice?


Hey... just in case anybody was waiting for an update, wanted to let you know you that I received the supplies but didn't take it due to its potentially fatal interaction with the SSRIs I'm taking (something called "serotonin syndrome"). Looking for one of my friends to be a surrogate tripper for me though, so I'll let you know how that goes if it happens. I guess personally i'll just stick to mushrooms, which have been called the "jesters" of the entheogen family (as compared to ayahuasca, the "mother") but whatever, I am partial to a good laugh, especially when it involves poking holes at universal human failings.

Also, just google "ayahuasca forums" if you want a ton of more information on practically everything about the drug. Stop asking/challenging abraxas; he's done everything one person can do to supply quality info about what it's like, why you should/shouldn't take it, etc.


----------



## violetgirl

Just to add to this conversation

I saw this film years ago, and should have added it to the conversation. 
A young autistic boy was really helped by Shamans in Mongolia





http://www.shamanportal.org/article_details.php?id=719


----------



## Pablo

violetgirl said:


> Just to add to this conversation
> 
> I saw this film years ago, and should have added it to the conversation.
> A young autistic boy was really helped by Shamans in Mongolia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.shamanportal.org/article_details.php?id=719


I watched this yesterday, thanks I thought it was quite good, I think the whole focus of the family on healing him and an acceptance that his "illness" was as much to do with the family and parents as it was to do with the boy must have helped a great deal. I feel in my case anyway I am blamed as the "ill" one of the family and my problems are mine alone and nothing do to with anyone else, which makes healing very difficult from this isolated place.

I am still thinking of going to Peru to try ayahuasca, I have done a bit of research into centres and found a few which might be ok and am trying to organise a few weeks off work and see if I have enough courage to go through with it alone. Will update if I do go.


----------



## violetgirl

Pablo said:


> I watched this yesterday, thanks I thought it was quite good, I think the whole focus of the family on healing him and an acceptance that his "illness" was as much to do with the family and parents as it was to do with the boy must have helped a great deal. I feel in my case anyway I am blamed as the "ill" one of the family and my problems are mine alone and nothing do to with anyone else, which makes healing very difficult from this isolated place.
> 
> I am still thinking of going to Peru to try ayahuasca, I have done a bit of research into centres and found a few which might be ok and am trying to organise a few weeks off work and see if I have enough courage to go through with it alone. Will update if I do go.


Are there not places in the UK?
I found this
http://www.ayahuasca.me.uk/

What Abraxas describes, his healing process with this, is pretty much what I went though. Purging 'bad' stuff, facing up to things etc. Just that this method is a lot quicker and sounds very intense.

Did you watch the whole film? I was crying by the end. Just the way 'difference' is treated in those cultures is light years ahead of us. And I most definitely believe their healing is just as valid as western medicine. Something happened with those shamans, that helped 'unlock' him in some way.


----------



## Pablo

violetgirl said:


> Are there not places in the UK?
> I found this
> http://www.ayahuasca.me.uk/
> 
> What Abraxas describes, his healing process with this, is pretty much what I went though. Purging 'bad' stuff, facing up to things etc. Just that this method is a lot quicker and sounds very intense.
> 
> Did you watch the whole film? I was crying by the end. Just the way 'difference' is treated in those cultures is light years ahead of us. And I most definitely believe their healing is just as valid as western medicine. Something happened with those shamans, that helped 'unlock' him in some way.


Yeah I watched it all, it was quite heart warming, clearly the kid trusted the Shaman as he couldn't bare to be parted from him and for an autistic kid that is quite something to be like that with a complete stranger, so something was clearly going on. I was interesting what they said about how in traditional cultures if a person had gone through a long illness or psychological problem that would often mean that they were being called to become a Shaman themselves as they were more sensitive people, which made me think that could have been the destiny for many people here in a different time and culture, but instead we are stigmatised rather than cherished.


----------



## violetgirl

Pablo said:


> Yeah I watched it all, it was quite heart warming, clearly the kid trusted the Shaman as he couldn't bare to be parted from him and for an autistic kid that is quite something to be like that with a complete stranger, so something was clearly going on. I was interesting what they said about how in traditional cultures if a person had gone through a long illness or psychological problem that would often mean that they were being called to become a Shaman themselves as they were more sensitive people, which made me think that could have been the destiny for many people here in a different time and culture, but instead we are stigmatised rather than cherished.


I was crying at the part when he was saying 'more Shamans' it was so cute! You'd think the whole ceremony and the drums would freak him out, but obviously something had happened. And yeah, for an autistic child to want that, it's amazing. And when the shaman held his hand to say goodbye. Also, at the last healing, when the boy just sat happily on his knee, a stranger, and how comfortable he was.

I wonder how Rowan is now, if he's improved even more


----------



## Abraxas

Pablo said:


> I watched this yesterday, thanks I thought it was quite good, I think the whole focus of the family on healing him and an acceptance that his "illness" was as much to do with the family and parents as it was to do with the boy must have helped a great deal. I feel in my case anyway I am blamed as the "ill" one of the family and my problems are mine alone and nothing do to with anyone else, which makes healing very difficult from this isolated place.
> 
> I am still thinking of going to Peru to try ayahuasca, I have done a bit of research into centres and found a few which might be ok and am trying to organise a few weeks off work and see if I have enough courage to go through with it alone. Will update if I do go.


way to go bro! if you re feeling its call then trust your instinct, be corageous. And dont worry about going alone i met many people who were on their own and taking ceremonies.
Also, did you try check for places at the US? no need to go to peru/brazil, although maybe it would be better. definitely you should take it in nature. And if you go to Peru, then maybe for the first week you can go to the beach, do some surfin or just relax, so you adapt a bit to the change (of weather, country, culture, language, etc).. just chill at the beach and really try to disconnect (no phone, no calls from family, etc), and be silent... and dont eat meat and dont take alcohol nor have sex for at least that week. then travel to the jungle/mountain or wherever it is you decide to take the ceremony.

If you re too afraid of ayahuasca you can tell the shaman to give you a small dose so that you can see what effect it has on your body, and then take the proper ceremony the next day, or something like that. the first times you might feel nauseaus, this is normal as ayahuasca kills many parasites/harmful bacteria and as they die they release toxins which get into the bloodstream and fuck you up, but its part of the cleaning process. first ayahuasca will clean your body, and purge your mind from 'mental plastic' we get from city life, then it will take you deep inside and work with your feelings/emotions, and finally if you go on it will open you up to the spiritual world, so that fears of death, disease etc will go (or at least obsessions about same). Trust the vine!







really, trust these indigenous people, they know much about nature and health. let mother earth heal you through ayahuasca.

oh and baking-pineapple, glad you didnt take that stuff, specially because of the SSRIs!
just a reminder to everyone Ayahuasca has fatal interactions with psychiatric medications specially SSRI's and MAOI's! so, avoid taking ayahuasca it if you are taking any of these medications.


----------



## jakethelittle

Hi Abraxas,

I've had DP for about a year, and I'm probably one of the few people who didn't get it from drugs. It was from an accumulation of years of stress, aspergers, social anxiety, losing faith in god, never having a girlfriend, and ptsd from my mom's attempted suicide. There is a lot of demons inside my head I'm having a hard time dealing with. I'm 27 years old but physically & mentally I feel like I'm 18. I've been reading about ayauascha for some time & have been very curious about how it might help me. I would be very interested in getting into contact with a spirit world, if there is such a thing, & I realize that ayauascha is not a toy, that it's serious business. Someone like me though would never just jump into something willy nilly, and it took me until I was 24 too even try a hit of pot. My main problem is because of depression, I haven't really been able to focus on what it is I want out of life, and I don't have a job or money to pay to go to South America or somewhere that has a place where I can be with a Shaman to help me out, although that might change soon. You did mention that it is possible to do it in the states. Is that at all legal, and I live in The San Francisco Bay Area, and I could imagine finding someone around here who could help me out. I don't want to get in trouble doing something illegal, but at the same time, somethings got to give. I'm tired of the existential thoughts that keep me from enjoying life. Before my DP, I was able to make some light of life, even knowing about all the horrible shit that happens in it. In a sense I'm lucky to be an American, & I don't really mind living in a capitalistic society, In fact I prefer it, I just can't stand the rat race, and the yuppie ideals I see in modern culture (People living in nice homes watching tv shows about other nice houses, are you fucking kidding me?) Overpopulation, genetic illness, natural disasters, religious dogma, wondering what in the fuck is the point of all this. I used to have a great sense of humor about everything, but then what I call "Mr. Serious" came and entered my brain and told me that "No, it's not funny, people are dying, you should be ashamed of yourself". That's really what I want back, is my sense of humor, get over my fear of death, and perhaps hopefully, earn a sense of pride in what my abilities are.

One more question I have is I am a bit worried about is not the spiritual aspect, but the religious aspect of it. I don't know much about it right now, but it seems to me some ceremonies put emphasis on religious figures like Jesus & Mother Mary, and I turned my back on Christianity some time ago. I think the idea that someone had to die on a cross so God would forgive us of our sins really disgusts me. Is that a factor in all, some, or most ceremonies?

Thanks for telling us about your experince Abraxas. It's given me a glimpse of hope.


----------



## Guest

Abraxas said:


> just a reminder to everyone Ayahuasca has fatal interactions with psychiatric medications specially SSRI's and MAOI's! so, avoid taking ayahuasca it if you are taking any of these medications.


*Great that Abraxas emphasizes this. You need to be physically fit and prepared a few months before you do this correctly.*

I did a search on Google of us ayahuasca ceremonies ... California seems to be a good location, but I couldn't find specific places, but there are a LOT of things to look into here:

http://www.google.com/search?q=us+ayahuasca+ceremonies&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a

(Hope that works)
----------------------------
Also:

http://boingboing.net/2008/02/05/rise-of-ayahuasca-ce.html

"In Peru, ayahuasca ceremonies are so common that the nation's tourism bureau tracks the number of visitors seeking the sacred brew. But no one needs to travel to Peru to experience ayahuasca in 2008. A community, shepherded by ayahuasca shamans, has begun to emerge in the United States. It initially established itself in New Mexico. And now--in an act of psychedelic entrepreneurship and under the aegis of his spiritual and religious society, *Aurora Bahá--Truenos is bringing the ayahuasca ceremony to Southern California."*

-------------------------------------

http://www.biopark.org/peru/sqcleansing-01.html

"If you are taking prescription medication (including antibiotics), are subject to high blood pressure, have a heart condition, or are under treatment for any health condition, consult your physician about the use of temporary monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOI).

Medical consultation is especially important if you are taking Prozac, Paxil, Welbrutin, Effexor, Zoloft or other antidepressants affecting serotonin levels, i.e.serotonin selectie re-uptake inhibitors (SSRI). These medications generally require a period of up to six weeks to completely clear the system and must be reduced gradually. Some may clear the system in a shorter period of time. We recommend you consult your physician about the risks of taking a monoamine oxidase inhibitor in conjunction with your medication.

Non-prescription medications such as antihistamines, dietary aids, amphetamines and derivatives, and some natural herbal medicines, i.e. those containing ephedrine, high levels of caffeine or other stimulants, or fermented alcoholic beverages may also cause adverse reactions. We recommend that you discontinue all such medications, drugs, and herbs for at least one week prior to and following work with Ayahuasca."

-------------------------------------------

I am reading "The Horse Boy" right now, where a young boy with autism is taken by his father to Mongolia and Siberia to visit a number of shamans and to ride horses and goats and reindeer. It's very fascinating. What seems most important is the ENVIRONMENT. *You need a group of knowledgeable individuals, and I would say you should go with a friend or more people.* (This seemed to help Rowan, The Horse Boy -- and he did not take Ayahuasca!)

Also, if you look at some of these sites for Peruvian or Brazilian retreats, many have become "tourist attractions" -- STING went! One price for a ceremony I think was $1,500. And I think you need three. This does not count lodging and airfare, guides, etc. BUT, these special retreats are full of ritual and support.
But beware of "tourist traps" -- this has been a growing business over the past 20 years it seems.

In a certain sense, I am more able to understand this. I would be terrified to take the Ayahuasca, but in "The Horse Boy" *I can see that an intense MONTH of travel, being in very primitive conditions, being with shamans, riding horses, can be wonderful for anyone. I have been to both the Galapagos (2 weeks) and on Safari (3 weeks) as a young girl. I felt like DP shit, but it was wonderful to engage the animals and a very small team of tour guides. It was an excellent distraction, and I didn't have to spend time with my mother, but have a more personal experience (even though we went together). Swimming with a fur seal is therapeutic for anyone!*

*Jakethelittle:* You make an interesting point: 
This really is SPIRITUAL, it is the religion of these different areas, Shamanism and a belief in different Gods and spirits and animals of* nature ... in Mongolia you get spit in the face with Vodka in a ceremony -- drink/eat reindeer guts and feces! And I liken it to those who have a great Christian Faith, and believe in the power of prayer. In a strange way, this ceremony is like an exorcism.* And yes, as I understand it, Christianity has crept into many of these groups ... much of the world is Westernized in one way or another.

I have said, this sort of thing could be on my "something to do before I die" but I'm 52 -- I see risk IMHO, for individuals with any health disorder and that would include anxiety disorders, etc. It is said this helps depression, but again you have to go off all of your meds before you engage in the ceremony. If you have seizures, I don't think I would risk this.

You are putting your body through a LOT. And DON'T DRINK THE LOCAL WATER!

IMHO: I would go with a support system, wherever you go, have a complete physical and follow the dietary rules and medication rules BEFORE ... you must be 6 weeks off of SSRIs, etc.


----------



## Soul Seeker

Horse Boy is amazing, isn't it? If one doesn't see how a shaman could help cure DP/DR, they should watch Horse Boy, or read the book.


----------



## violetgirl

Soul Seeker said:


> Horse Boy is amazing, isn't it? If one doesn't see how a shaman could help cure DP/DR, they should watch Horse Boy, or read the book.


I know! I saw it years ago when it first came out, it's an amazing film. I wouldn't say the cured him, as thereis no cure for autism. But they 'unlocked' him so he could function to the best of his abilities.


----------



## Abraxas

jakethelittle said:


> Hi Abraxas,
> 
> I've had DP for about a year, and I'm probably one of the few people who didn't get it from drugs. It was from an accumulation of years of stress, aspergers, social anxiety, losing faith in god, never having a girlfriend, and ptsd from my mom's attempted suicide. There is a lot of demons inside my head I'm having a hard time dealing with. I'm 27 years old but physically & mentally I feel like I'm 18. I've been reading about ayauascha for some time & have been very curious about how it might help me. I would be very interested in getting into contact with a spirit world, if there is such a thing, & I realize that ayauascha is not a toy, that it's serious business. Someone like me though would never just jump into something willy nilly, and it took me until I was 24 too even try a hit of pot. My main problem is because of depression, I haven't really been able to focus on what it is I want out of life, and I don't have a job or money to pay to go to South America or somewhere that has a place where I can be with a Shaman to help me out, although that might change soon. You did mention that it is possible to do it in the states. Is that at all legal, and I live in The San Francisco Bay Area, and I could imagine finding someone around here who could help me out. I don't want to get in trouble doing something illegal, but at the same time, somethings got to give. I'm tired of the existential thoughts that keep me from enjoying life. Before my DP, I was able to make some light of life, even knowing about all the horrible shit that happens in it. In a sense I'm lucky to be an American, & I don't really mind living in a capitalistic society, In fact I prefer it, I just can't stand the rat race, and the yuppie ideals I see in modern culture (People living in nice homes watching tv shows about other nice houses, are you fucking kidding me?) Overpopulation, genetic illness, natural disasters, religious dogma, wondering what in the fuck is the point of all this. I used to have a great sense of humor about everything, but then what I call "Mr. Serious" came and entered my brain and told me that "No, it's not funny, people are dying, you should be ashamed of yourself". That's really what I want back, is my sense of humor, get over my fear of death, and perhaps hopefully, earn a sense of pride in what my abilities are.
> 
> One more question I have is I am a bit worried about is not the spiritual aspect, but the religious aspect of it. I don't know much about it right now, but it seems to me some ceremonies put emphasis on religious figures like Jesus & Mother Mary, and I turned my back on Christianity some time ago. I think the idea that someone had to die on a cross so God would forgive us of our sins really disgusts me. Is that a factor in all, some, or most ceremonies?
> 
> Thanks for telling us about your experince Abraxas. It's given me a glimpse of hope.


hey man. all the ceremonies I attended were not religious. I just call them 'ceremonies' because there is a certain aura of divinity or sacredness around them. Once you take ayahuasca you will understand why there is so much respect being paid to it, shamans treat is as a force, a feminine spirit. Also the life of tribal people, people of the earth, is a constant ceremony, it is ritualized. When they drink water they dont just do it cause they are thirsty, but they Know what water is and means, and they thank the Earth for it, etc. so in that sense, it is a healing ceremony, because you dont just take it at your home on your own, before catching the bus to work, and hope it will cure your disease as you go about your daily life in the materialistic world (like with western psychiatric meds). The way you go about it with ayahuasca is special, they light a fire place, play some music, its in nature, the shaman might do some chanting, and the 'aura' that is created is one of a ceremony, its not just a casual meeting at the bar for a couple of beers. But most of these places are free of religion, except one called Santo Daime, which focuses on christianity. And while some shamans might mention some spirit or god or whatever it is they believe in, they dont enforce than on you, just think/feel he is summoning good energy, good vibes, and if they mention the Virgin mary, whatever, they are summoning that which is pure, noble, untouched. 
And about christianity.. .well, they problem might be you are taking things too literally (as the church does, and most christians). there are gnostic/mystic interpretations on christianity (Gnosticism) and judaism (Kabbalah). The idea is to find christ/god within, and the sacrifice of christ on the cross, it might have some metaphysical explanation, a metaphor. anyway, that you have grown displeased with christianity (as the church portrays it) does not mean that you have to turn to the opposite end of materialism/atheism, which leads to nihilism which leads to depression/despair/DP. find a middle ground. 
Ayahuasca is not regulated in the States as far as i know.
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ayahuasca/ayahuasca_law.shtml
there are many places in California where they serve ayahuasca.

but anyway, if you do take ayahuasca, forget this deal about the spirit world. thats just a metaphor, it will just open a door to your inner self. nevermind gods, spirits, energies, chakras, christ, those are all names and metaphors for things you find inside when you go within.

to go within you have to let go of shame and guilt. you are not responsible for the world's current affairs, you are not to blame for anyones suffering, including your suffering. suffering results out of ignorance, ignorance is first cause, there is no original sin, no fall from grace. we all start being ignorant of ourselves and of God/nature/love, and as a result we blindly hurt ourselves and others. but there is no shame in having done so, and no guilt for having commited an offence or a neglect, simply because these 'offences' were just the direct result of ignorance. 
and how best to help and change the world? by changing yourself. how do you expect to help people around you who are drowning, if you are also cast on the river and barely breathing. best to get safe to ground, and from there help other people. otherwise its like the naked person trying to cloth the poor. the only way this madness in the world can stop is by wisdom. wisdom of what? wisdom of self, wisdom of light, wisdom of love, to see behind the ilusions and the fake personalities/masks that we have built in order to fit in this sick society. once you find the inner child, then you are truly blameless and at peace, and those who see the light in you will awaken to their own.

so, your only responsibility now is with yourself. your only responsibility now is to regain health, to find yourself, to cleanse the doors of perception and to cleanse your heart so that you will let go of shame, guilt and fear, and walk towards wherever you feel the light is, no offense taken by anyone if you decide to leave suffering behind. enough, you have suffered enough. suffering was the result of ignorance, not your fault. so you accept your pain and let it go, and cultivate the courage needed to face your demons and your weaknesses and work towards your ideal of happiness.

ayahuasca is just a tool that worked for me, its a tool that helped me clean my body and mind, so that i could start new, so that i could let go of irrational fears and negative thought patterns. so that i would open up to the light of love. then its up to you, ayahuasca shows you the road, then _you_ have to tread it.

just trust your heart, really, the mind is no good for existential issues. mind thinks in concepts, and associates them and uses logic to find coherence between different concepts, like I, God, society, what should i do, blah blah. just words devoid of essence. concepts devoid of meaning. the territory is not the map. mind builds maps, models of reality and concepts of what you are and what you are not. and the worst part is that these concepts are not even your invention, they're just fed into your mind by society, which as we all can see is quite disfunctional and sick. so, really, stop thinking, focus on your feelings, there is a higher wisdom in the heart, the heart is both an organ of perception and another form of consciousness within yourself. heart thinks in whole, with intuition, it sees the whole picture, but it cannot tell you about it in words, you have to learn its language, learn how to understand it, and most of all, learn how to trust it, above and beyond mind and rationality. set yourself free from the 'Serious guy', thats just mind, mind disguising itself as you, and you fall for it and believe that that is you ,that you are worry, that you are anxiety, that you are weak, that you are hopeless. so, be silent,tell your mind to shut the fuck up and listen to that which Knows, that which is wise, wisdom being above knowledge and certainly above information (that thing which mind works with). there is something in you that already knows the way, that already knows how to surf through this darkness. the heart is the light bearer, the light is love, love shows the way, with love where you saw a dead end you see steps, a stairway. follow the stairway, trust that it will take you to your Self. be patient, be wise, but most of all be corageous. cultivate your will, there is nothing that you can not overcome. breath, walk, feel your body, feel the sun on your skin, try to remember, to recollect, how it used to be. and follow that intuition, follow that higher wisdom.

peace


----------



## Abraxas

jakethelittle said:


> Hi Abraxas,
> 
> I've had DP for about a year, and I'm probably one of the few people who didn't get it from drugs. It was from an accumulation of years of stress, aspergers, social anxiety, losing faith in god, never having a girlfriend, and ptsd from my mom's attempted suicide. There is a lot of demons inside my head I'm having a hard time dealing with. I'm 27 years old but physically & mentally I feel like I'm 18. I've been reading about ayauascha for some time & have been very curious about how it might help me. I would be very interested in getting into contact with a spirit world, if there is such a thing, & I realize that ayauascha is not a toy, that it's serious business. Someone like me though would never just jump into something willy nilly, and it took me until I was 24 too even try a hit of pot. My main problem is because of depression, I haven't really been able to focus on what it is I want out of life, and I don't have a job or money to pay to go to South America or somewhere that has a place where I can be with a Shaman to help me out, although that might change soon. You did mention that it is possible to do it in the states. Is that at all legal, and I live in The San Francisco Bay Area, and I could imagine finding someone around here who could help me out. I don't want to get in trouble doing something illegal, but at the same time, somethings got to give. I'm tired of the existential thoughts that keep me from enjoying life. Before my DP, I was able to make some light of life, even knowing about all the horrible shit that happens in it. In a sense I'm lucky to be an American, & I don't really mind living in a capitalistic society, In fact I prefer it, I just can't stand the rat race, and the yuppie ideals I see in modern culture (People living in nice homes watching tv shows about other nice houses, are you fucking kidding me?) Overpopulation, genetic illness, natural disasters, religious dogma, wondering what in the fuck is the point of all this. I used to have a great sense of humor about everything, but then what I call "Mr. Serious" came and entered my brain and told me that "No, it's not funny, people are dying, you should be ashamed of yourself". That's really what I want back, is my sense of humor, get over my fear of death, and perhaps hopefully, earn a sense of pride in what my abilities are.
> 
> One more question I have is I am a bit worried about is not the spiritual aspect, but the religious aspect of it. I don't know much about it right now, but it seems to me some ceremonies put emphasis on religious figures like Jesus & Mother Mary, and I turned my back on Christianity some time ago. I think the idea that someone had to die on a cross so God would forgive us of our sins really disgusts me. Is that a factor in all, some, or most ceremonies?
> 
> Thanks for telling us about your experince Abraxas. It's given me a glimpse of hope.


hey man. all the ceremonies I attended were not religious. I just call them 'ceremonies' because there is a certain aura of divinity or sacredness around them. Once you take ayahuasca you will understand why there is so much respect being paid to it, shamans treat is as a force, a feminine spirit. Also the life of tribal people, people of the earth, is a constant ceremony, it is ritualized. When they drink water they dont just do it cause they are thirsty, but they Know what water is and means, and they thank the Earth for it, etc. so in that sense, it is a healing ceremony, because you dont just take it at your home on your own, before catching the bus to work, and hope it will cure your disease as you go about your daily life in the materialistic world (like with western psychiatric meds). The way you go about it with ayahuasca is special, they light a fire place, play some music, its in nature, the shaman might do some chanting, and the 'aura' that is created is one of a ceremony, its not just a casual meeting at the bar for a couple of beers. But most of these places are free of religion, except one called Santo Daime, which focuses on christianity. And while some shamans might mention some spirit or god or whatever it is they believe in, they dont enforce than on you, just think/feel he is summoning good energy, good vibes, and if they mention the Virgin mary, whatever, they are summoning that which is pure, noble, untouched.

And about christianity.. .well, they problem might be you are taking things too literally (as the church does, and most christians). there are gnostic/mystic interpretations on christianity (Gnosticism) and judaism (Kabbalah). The idea is to find christ/god within, and the sacrifice of christ on the cross, it might have some metaphysical explanation, a metaphor. anyway, that you have grown displeased with christianity (as the church portrays it) does not mean that you have to turn to the opposite end of materialism/atheism, which leads to nihilism which leads to depression/despair/DP. find a middle ground. 
Ayahuasca is not regulated in the States as far as i know.

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ayahuasca/ayahuasca_law.shtml
there are many places in California where they serve ayahuasca.

but anyway, if you do take ayahuasca, forget this deal about the spirit world. thats just a metaphor, it will just open a door to your inner self. nevermind gods, spirits, energies, chakras, christ, those are all names and metaphors for things you find inside when you go within.

to go within you have to let go of shame and guilt. you are not responsible for the world's current affairs, you are not to blame for anyones suffering, including your suffering. suffering results out of ignorance, ignorance is first cause, there is no original sin, no fall from grace. we all start being ignorant of ourselves and of God/nature/love, and as a result we blindly hurt ourselves and others. but there is no shame in having done so, and no guilt for having commited an offence or a neglect, simply because these 'offences' were just the direct result of ignorance. 
and how best to help and change the world? by changing yourself. how do you expect to help people around you who are drowning, if you are also cast on the river and barely breathing. best to get safe to ground, and from there help other people. otherwise its like the naked person trying to cloth the poor. the only way this madness in the world can stop is by wisdom. wisdom of what? wisdom of self, wisdom of light, wisdom of love, to see behind the ilusions and the fake personalities/masks that we have built in order to fit in this sick society. once you find the inner child, then you are truly blameless and at peace, and those who see the light in you will awaken to their own.

so, your only responsibility now is with yourself. your only responsibility now is to regain health, to find yourself, to cleanse the doors of perception and to cleanse your heart so that you will let go of shame, guilt and fear, and walk towards wherever you feel the light is, no offense taken by anyone if you decide to leave suffering behind. enough, you have suffered enough. suffering was the result of ignorance, not your fault. so you accept your pain and let it go, and cultivate the courage needed to face your demons and your weaknesses and work towards your ideal of happiness.

ayahuasca is just a tool that worked for me, its a tool that helped me clean my body and mind, so that i could start new, so that i could let go of irrational fears and negative thought patterns. so that i would open up to the light of love. then its up to you, ayahuasca shows you the road, then _you_ have to tread it.

just trust your heart, really, the mind is no good for existential issues. mind thinks in concepts, and associates them and uses logic to find coherence between different concepts, like I, God, society, what should i do, blah blah. just words devoid of essence. concepts devoid of meaning. the territory is not the map. mind builds maps, models of reality and concepts of what you are and what you are not. and the worst part is that these concepts are not even your own, they're just fed into your mind by society, which as we all can see is quite disfunctional and sick. so, really, stop thinking, focus on your feelings, there is a higher wisdom in the heart, the heart is both an organ of perception and another form of consciousness within yourself. heart thinks in whole, with intuition, it sees the whole picture, but it cannot tell you about it in words, you have to learn its language, learn how to understand it, and most of all, learn how to trust it, above and beyond mind and rationality. set yourself free from the 'Serious guy', thats just mind, mind disguising itself as you, and you fall for it and believe that that is you ,that you are worry, that you are anxiety, that you are weak, that you are hopeless. so, be silent,tell your mind to shut the fuck up and listen to that which Knows, that which is wise, wisdom being above knowledge and certainly above information (that thing which mind works with). there is something in you that already knows the way, that already knows how to surf through this darkness. the heart is the light bearer, the light is love, love shows the way, with love where you saw a dead end you see steps, a stairway. follow the stairway, trust that it will take you to your Self. be patient, be wise, but most of all be corageous. cultivate your will, there is nothing that you can not overcome. breath, walk, feel your body, feel the sun on your skin, try to remember, to recollect, how it used to be. and follow that intuition, follow that higher wisdom.

peace

ps. just to elaborate on the way mind works and how it tricks us into anxiety, depression, dpd, etc.

Again, mind works with symbols. symbols are concepts that represent some'thing' which is really not a thing since it is experienced subjectively. The mind associates this symbols with the memory of that subjective experience. For example, some one gives you a hug. what is a hug? there is no objective 'hug'. the experience of a hug is subjective, complex, organic, undivisible. However, we try to objectify it and reduce it to a symbol, in this case a word. Words are the worst types of symbols. For a round object, a good symbol would be a circle drawn on a page. A poor symbol would be the word 'circle'. The mind then uses rationality and logic, which works in a linear manner. A + B = C, if A not B, then blah blah. And uses that logic with symbols, in this case with words. The circle is round. good. it makes sense, mind is happy, and it does not cause you anxiety, nor nothing.
Now, when you start using symbols for things which are less familiar, less concrete and basic, such as 'I', 'God', 'Love', 'Others', the representation starts distancing itself from the thing its representing, so that in the end you have a series of concepts totally devoid of essence/experience. why? because you dont know what Self means, you dont know what God means. You have no SUBJECTIVE experience of these 'things' (which are not things but organic, whole, complex nous/essence which can not be divided, hence they can not be rationalized! ration = portion, to divide), so then you are working with 'empty symbols', concepts devoid/detached/bare from that which they represent, ie the subjective experience. You get= mind trying to put together a bunch of concepts which are devoid of meaning (or have a distorted, partial, or totally deluded meaning, since you have no actual, genuine experience of them), using linear logic, and trying to come up with a solution, trying to make sense of it, trying to make the argument/logical loop close, to understand. Of course, it fails, miserably. as it fails, and since you identify with this thinking process, you become anxious, you become obsessed, you spend countless hours trying to work it out, and slowly you stop experiencing reality subjectively, you stop looking out there, and inflex your mind on itself. the result = you turn into a robot.
It gets even worse when the memory of the things your mind starts associating to symbols/words, starts to get encoded in language itself, 'round, blue, etc' instead of the subjective mental image of a blue sphere. so you get concepts within concepts, etc, until the map your mind has built is so far from the actual experiences that you start living in a fake, empty world of concepts and words stripped of essence, experience.

so, how do you go about it: you shut the fuck up, realize that rationality and discursive thought are pointless, that they only work to solve maths problems when you go to the shop and buy some nice apples and the old lady gives you 50cents back instead of 70cents. and you tell your mind, hey, now its your time to shine: what is 5 dollars minus 4.30? well, 5 - 4 = 1, 1 - 0.30 = 0.7, that bitch is fucking you up!! thanks mind! i love you. now go back to being quiet please. then you go on, you breath, you walk on your two feet, you *observe* reality, *subjectively*, you see and learn to observe that which is beyond words, that which words stand for, the actual experience!!!! you note how it makes you feel, how blue makes you feel, how that car is shining and maybe it reminds you of some abstract far memory which you dont obsess about you just let it float around, and then you take a deep breath, and you allow yourself to enjoy that, then you start feeling vulnerable, you accept it, then you feel some hope, yo welcome it, then you feel you have to sit and watch that tree which you just happen to like and find beautiful, you sit down, you try to be possitive, you remember about some wrong they did to you, or you feel ashamed or guilty for something, you accept it and then you let it go, you just take a deep exhalation and as you exhale you let all that emotional burden go. then you stand up, you feel playful, you jump from tile to tile, people watch you, you dont care, you call your friend and you say, hey lets meet i want to share something with you, and you try to be genuine about how you feel, and know its ok to be in need of help, and to be vulnerable and not to be perfect, to be humble and to set your defenses down, to just really let go, let go of thinking, or rationality, and just trust your heart, be ok with loving in the dark, to love yourself even though you still dont know who you are, to love life and people even though you dont know what reality is and who these people are. are they real? is it all a dream? who cares. say, i watch powerpuff girls and i love say, buttercup. who cares, why do you need to Know in order to love? why not try to Love in order to Know. when you stop using the mind and start using feelings/intuition as your center of self, you start seeing things that you couldnt see before, the heart is really an organ of perception, its a looking-glass which allows you to see and understand things from a different perspective, a more wholer one.

Otherwise you have something like this going on. '5 - 4.30 = 0.7 , oh, thats wrong, its 70, not 50. Why did she do that? ok nevermind shes just old. im growing old. im growing? a plant. old. who am I? why am i walking now and why do i have hands. oh no, my hands are weird. why am i talking to myself. Hello? hello? who are you? are you me? am I, I? hello? uh, that man is weird he looked at me, what is he thinking, does he also think about these things?. (you see some garbage on the ground) oh thats disgusting, society is sick. im sick. where is God, everything is going to hell. i lost my faith, im to blame. its my fault. oh no i forgot to buy grapes. what do i eat for anyway, i dont even know who am i but still i eat food and sit on the table as if i knew what i was doing, i wish i was back to being normal, i hate dp, why is this happening to me. lets see.. why... why, i smoked that joint, cannabis is a psychoactive, neurons... yeah it fucked my neurons, i wish i didnt. but my psychiatrist says.. oh , tomorrow im gonna tell him.. what am i thinking firs i need to finish that assignment, the appointment is on thursday anyway. tomorrow, yeah tomorrow i will solve this out, oh god this is so bad what am i going to do this is hell im so anxious, who am i kidding im totally lost.. why am i anxious, should i try ayahuasca, where is god? maybe yoga.. uh but reality should be ok why am i suffering why is it that im alive, if the big bang started, and evolution, then i must be able to survive and be ok unless of course there is something wrong in my brain, but what if God exists and this is a test oh fuck then what should i do... etc, etc,, etc............

ie, hell.

mind = useful for maths, not getting robbed by an old lady in a shop, planning a party or a trip, etc
heart = useful for *Being*
lungs = useful for breathing
etc

its really a lot more simpler than what you imagine. air is air, legs are legs, love is love, the unknown is mysterious and its ok to not know. so shhhhhhhhhhh mind, its all good my love, if you stop rambling i ll let you solve a puzzle when we get home. muah muah --> you kissing your mind







. and then you hug yourself and all is good







, mind and heart together working as a team.










peace
abraxas


----------



## Guest

Just wanted to say, in reading "The Horse Boy" and looking into shamanism which exists in different forms worldwide, it is considered a religion. And it requires FAITH to reap the spiritual benefits, just as it requires Faith to believe Christ is your savior, or YAWH, or Allah are who guide you.

From "The Horse Boy" -- they meet MANY shamans along the way. Those who are genuine speak of a pantheon of spirits and gods. You must show respect to these Gods to receive healing. I haven't seen the film, but the book goes into great deal.

Strange to say, a shaman is like a priest in a church. He/she is a "conduit" to the "spirit world" and guides one re: "bad or good energy" one has in one's body. There are many rituals ... as you would see in ANY religion ... and these are done in groups, where there is support and shared faith.

From Wikipedia which doesn't do this justice and is too long:

"Shamanism is an anthropological term referencing a range of beliefs and practices regarding communication with the spiritual world.[2] In areas where indigenous shamanism still thrives, there is a clear divide between "lay" people (who participate in and practice shamanic belief and tradition) and the professionals or specialists themselves. A lay practitioner of shamanism is not awarded any special title, as this is the norm within traditional societies. A shamanic professional, who is a highly-trained and very often spiritually selected individual, is sometimes known as a shaman[not in citation given](play /ˈʃɑːmən/ shah-mən or /ˈʃeɪmən/ shay-mən).[3]

*Shamanism encompasses the belief that shamans are intermediaries or messengers between the human world and the spirit worlds. *Shamans are said to treat ailments/illness by mending the soul. Alleviating traumas affecting the soul/spirit restores the physical body of the individual to balance and wholeness. *The shaman also enters supernatural realms or dimensions to obtain solutions to problems afflicting the community. Shamans may visit other worlds/dimensions to bring guidance to misguided souls and to ameliorate illnesses of the human soul caused by foreign elements. The shaman operates primarily within the spiritual world, which in turn affects the human world. The restoration of balance results in the elimination of the ailment.[4]*

-----------------------
What strikes me about "The Horse Boy", and he is not cured of his autism, is that he is truly surrounded by love and by an extraordinary, GRUELING journey. He is accompanied by his parents, a film crew, a guide and the guide's son (a young boy who befriends him). The guide is a translator and explains what is wrong with Rowan (the boy) and the shaman as rituals and medicinals and rituals. *But every single person who goes on this journey encourages Rowan. NOT JUST THE SHAMANS who accept his out of control behavior.* He loves animals and rides horses and sees many animals and is bombarded with stimulation that is at times extremely difficult to take, and at other times more comforting to him.

His parents also pray for him. His mother is a Buddhist. Both of them pray to the spirits and Gods of various tribal religions. I have to say, I believe that is very important. And it is a leap of Faith one does not necessarily have to completely accept.

But if you think of it, any religion requires a leap of Faith that one is being guided by a "higher power." Shamanism and tribal religions are no different.


----------



## Guest

Note 6% of religions are indigenous and tribal.

The problem is, Christianity has been spread far and wide. I don't know if there is any "pure religion" ... I think most importantly is that if you "let go of control" let go of Free Will in any of these situations, let go to a "higher power" whatever that is, you can believe IN the power for its healing purposes, or for guidance.

Why do Muslims and Christians pray and honor God, and perform rituals, and have holidays and celebrations, days of atonement, etc. These things are reflected in indigenous religions.

What I thought was amazing was on the Horse Boy's journey, he cannot have a bowel movement over a toilet. He soils his pants, over and over and over and has never been toilet trained that way, no matter what his parents do. The father asks, "If only THIS could be solved." Well, one night when they encourage him for the billionth time to do this, ALL of the crew, the parents, friends, guide, etc. squat down, and Rowan squats down with them.

NOWHERE are you going to find this happening in most autistic schools in the West. Everyone, even Rowan's young friend helps. This UNITY, and unity under adversity, helps Rowan as much as one Shaman who says that this will happen. The faith of Rowan's father help move Rowan to another level of quality of life.

I definitely would go on such a journey -- anywhere in the wilderness -- with like-minded people. Rowan ingests only some small amount of reindeer milk? most of which he tosses away as it tastes awful. It is the TOTAL EXPERIENCE as I gather it. Just like seeing "John of God" -- Google him, etc. A friend of mine did that to help his DP. It didn't help, but he met some fascinating people and made a wonderful documentary about it.

EDIT: I would not do a drug related ceremony. But I have a friend who lives in New Mexico very close to the Mexican border. She trains horses herself. She would consider her religion "spiritual" and based on Native Indian tradition which respects all of nature and humanity. Her closeness with her animals is healing. She also goes to sweat lodges and on retreats. But again she lives in a very accepting community, a WESTERN community, where there is more of a community spirit as it is a VERY small town ... 3 hundred people, and individuals who are Hispanic who bring in their own religion, Christianity usually. GROUP acceptance. And spending a lot of time in nature seem to soothe ALL people.


----------



## Soul Seeker

Yes, unfortunately he's not cured of his autism. However, after the shaman performed a ritual on Rowan (the autistic boy), he said tomorrow he will no longer defecate in his pants, and that over 3 years his autism will improve. And he was right.

The next day, Rowan intentionally "went to the bathroom", and started playing with other children, when before he would cling to his parents.

Seeing that experience, I got a better understanding of how a shaman could cure DP. Autism is a physical problem with structural differences in the brain (Rowan was born premature), so a shaman can only do so much, but DP is totally in our minds.


----------



## violetgirl

Soul Seeker said:


> Yes, unfortunately he's not cured of his autism. However, after the shaman performed a ritual on Rowan (the autistic boy), he said tomorrow he will no longer defecate in his pants, and that over 3 years his autism will improve. And he was right.
> 
> The next day, Rowan intentionally "went to the bathroom", and started playing with other children, when before he would cling to his parents.
> 
> Seeing that experience, I got a better understanding of how a shaman could cure DP. Autism is a physical problem, so a shaman can only do so much, but DP is totally in our minds.


That was pretty amazing. That he had an 'intentional poo' as they called it, almost immediately. I loved the part when he suddenly started to play with the other kids.

I did some research, and according to his Dad, Rowan's tantruming has decreased dramatically, and he's going to the toilet properly, and is making more friends, this is a few years on. So the effects seem to be permanent.


----------



## Guest

There is something else I meant to say (then I'll stop) but I've learned a lot from all of this.

Think of healing ceremonies in Christianity. There is a huge group with Faith. There is a "laying on of hands." There can be a "casting out of the devil." Etc. I find these things difficult to watch and don't buy all of it, but who knows?

There are also individuals here on the forum -- we all have our own path -- who regularly pray for strength, and find a healing path through God -- Christ, the God of Israel, Allah, or other belief systems. Mindfulness in the Buddhist tradition, and this is the basis for dialectical behavioral therapy and radical acceptance which is what I work on -- and it is difficult to work on. I do not see Buddha as a God however. And there are a million offshoots of Buddhism who have multiple Gods, etc.

Also, what is interesting is in the Christian Faith, one drinks wine "the blood of Christ" and takes a communion wafer "the body of Christ."

I say, whatever floats your boat, but in these indigenous ceremonies, be prepared, very prepared for a lot of punishment to your body from the drugs. And "detox" BEFORE. Go off of your meds if you can, all of them. *I'd say 2 months before hand. EVERYTHING, prescribed and recreational. I am being cautious, but this is recommended by many of these sites, not just me. As for myself, I have medications I cannot discontinue (that are not mental health related), and it would be dangerous for me to do this (I asked my oncologist about this.)*


----------



## Pablo

Abraxas said:


> way to go bro! if you re feeling its call then trust your instinct, be corageous. And dont worry about going alone i met many people who were on their own and taking ceremonies.
> Also, did you try check for places at the US? no need to go to peru/brazil, although maybe it would be better. definitely you should take it in nature. And if you go to Peru, then maybe for the first week you can go to the beach, do some surfin or just relax, so you adapt a bit to the change (of weather, country, culture, language, etc).. just chill at the beach and really try to disconnect (no phone, no calls from family, etc), and be silent... and dont eat meat and dont take alcohol nor have sex for at least that week. then travel to the jungle/mountain or wherever it is you decide to take the ceremony.
> 
> If you re too afraid of ayahuasca you can tell the shaman to give you a small dose so that you can see what effect it has on your body, and then take the proper ceremony the next day, or something like that. the first times you might feel nauseaus, this is normal as ayahuasca kills many parasites/harmful bacteria and as they die they release toxins which get into the bloodstream and fuck you up, but its part of the cleaning process. first ayahuasca will clean your body, and purge your mind from 'mental plastic' we get from city life, then it will take you deep inside and work with your feelings/emotions, and finally if you go on it will open you up to the spiritual world, so that fears of death, disease etc will go (or at least obsessions about same). Trust the vine!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> really, trust these indigenous people, they know much about nature and health. let mother earth heal you through ayahuasca.


I would like to do a long trip and relax before hand but I am finding it hard to get many weeks off work, perhaps I should just quit my job as it doesn't help me get better at all but that is a big risk. After doing a fair bit of research and watching loads of videos on it I think I would like to do it with a very experienced shaman from a legit lineage in Peru as they will help guide you if you freak out, doing it with an inexperienced shaman could be a risk imo. In a sense what I am most worried about is being in a group dynamic on my own as I am not very good in groups and I don't know if I will be able to open up, the actual going into the dark parts of my mind and puking/shitting myself I am not so worried about.

@Jackthelittle there are many vids on Youtube which can give you an example. One good movie about it is called Metamorphasis 



 I imagine to some it might look demonic what goes on in these ceremonies so I think it helps to have an open mind and some experience in self work or self development type stuff before you take it so you don;t get too freaked out


----------



## Pablo

On a similar note to Horse Boy there is another documentary called "Dolphin Boy" which isn't about Shamanism as such but about a boy who gets severe PTSD who is helped to recover through Dolphin Therapy. It is pretty harrowing so I wouldn't watch if you are feeling sensitive, it will probably make you cry or upset.

"When Morad was suspected of trying to seduce a girl, her relatives kidnapped and brutally tortured him. The attack was so brutal, and the emotional scars so deep, that Morad, suffering from severe post-traumatic stress disorder, disconnected himself from the world around him.

When doctors tell his father that dolphin-assisted therapy is the last option to prevent Morad being committed to a psychiatric institution, his father knows what he has to do.

He sells everything, and leaves his job and family to move to Dolphin Reef on the Red Sea, vowing not to return unless the boy achieves full recovery.

This is the tale of a parent's patient and tender love, and the friendship between a teenage boy and the group of dolphins intended to help him heal."






Not sure if it only works in UK Youtube, hope not


----------



## Abraxas

Dreamer* said:


> Just wanted to say, in reading "The Horse Boy" and looking into shamanism which exists in different forms worldwide, it is considered a religion. And it requires FAITH to reap the spiritual benefits, just as it requires Faith to believe Christ is your savior, or YAWH, or Allah are who guide you.
> 
> From "The Horse Boy" -- they meet MANY shamans along the way. Those who are genuine speak of a pantheon of spirits and gods. You must show respect to these Gods to receive healing. I haven't seen the film, but the book goes into great deal.
> But if you think of it, any religion requires a leap of Faith that one is being guided by a "higher power." Shamanism and tribal religions are no different.


I completely disagree. you do not need to have faith other than faith in yourself when healing with ayahuasca. i did not 'show respect' to any god or 'pantheon of spirits' during these ceremonies. I did not see any spirit actually, nor was i talked about any.

the places i went to were completely religion free. i also met many shamans on my trip and none of them told me about any god nor spirit. they just try to guide your mind through music, chanting, invoking different energies, etc, but you dont have to believe in anything actually, so long as you believe in yourself and in the possibility of healing to occur. (its definitely its not a placebo though, but well, you do need to have some willpower, ayahuasca wont do everything for you)

i can not see how you can compare faith in Christ, YAWH, Allah etc with faith in ... shamanism? what do you mean, faith in what, the shaman? he s just a regular guy and none of them claim to be divine in any way, at least not more divine than any other human being.

and if it is the case that the shaman says, in the middle of the ceremony: ''Oh please, Abuluntah, Great spirit of the canyon, please come and bless this Dreamer. ''







and he starts doing weird dances... then you just say whatever, and go on with your inner work. he definitely wont make you bow nor pray to Abuluntah.


----------



## Pablo

I don't think the healing in "The Horse Boy" required any faith either, well the parents had to have some belief to make the trip at all but Rowan didn't even really understand what was going on and I doubt he really understood what a Shaman really was except someone who dressed up funny, so I don't think faith played a significant role.


----------



## Guest

Well, you may disagree, but this is my understanding of the "religion of Shamanism." Rowan's father Rupert always kept saying, "Should we go to this lake and have Rowan in it -- I am skeptical" -- and yet he wanted to please whatever "spirits" were present. The shaman talked about something in Kristin, his wife -- a "dark force" which might have been her schizoprhenic? grandmother -- my memory stinks. But the real shamans had prayers and rituals.

EDIT: *The parents were given certain physical experiences -- being hit by a whip like thing (that caused welts and serious pain), Rowan received more gentle versions of these things. It was felt that family dynamics contributed to Rowan's illness, though the Shaman made no promises of a cure. As noted, ... well there were a number of Shamans they visited before Ghoste who seemed to help the most. But the parents BROUGHT there son for healing, and even the wife felt she had some "dark forces" in her that were released. And it was thought that she had encountered dark forces during Rowan's pregnancy, and had to wash her entire body, well waist down -- EVERYTHING -- to do a cleansing ritual.*

What I said seems most important is a group effort of support. And what can I say, my friend who follows Native American Indian religion prays to certain "entitites"/"deities."

Indigenous religions are so varied.

If you don't understand what I'm saying it doesn't matter. I am simply interested in researching this. And in Mongolia/Siberia/Africa and many other places where true shamans exist they pray, they call upon spirits, they please "Gods" -- wish I could find the section on my Kindle but I'd have to type it out.

Abraxas, as always, your experience may be different. But it is interesting as now I am saying it is the EXPERIENCE and you are saying it's the drug! I'm confused now, as I'm supposed to be the "Big Pharma" pusher, LOL.

The key to Rowan's healing seemed to be acceptance of his behavior in a wilderness environment where he could migle freely with animals. The shamans and locals accepted him unconditionally. I was also encouraging people to go with a friend, or loved one to feel this sense of community spirit. THE LOCATION seems important ... be it in the mountains in New Mexico, the steppes of Siberia, a wide open landscape in the UK somewhere -- a moor.

Rowan (in THAT story) ingested nothing. I am speaking of my reaction to "The Horse Boy." And looking further into Shamanism which is indeed considered a religion.

Faith in higher powers is really a UNIVERSAL experience. We "let our fears go" to the higher powers, help them guide us. One shaman spoke at length about many Gods. The shaman is a "conduit" to Gods/spirits, however you want to define them. Both parents prayed, participated in many rituals, and performed rituals on their child. (Rubbing him with herbs/lotions ... no clue what was in all of it.) And it was expected they eat every inch of a reindeer to benefit from the healing power OF the reindeer.

Well, we just agree to disagree. Interesting is I have a friend who is prof of Folklore/Mythology who is working on a documentary about shamanism this summer. I'll get more info from him. But he has spent 30 years studying this topic going back centuries. Meantime, I'm looking for a really good book on shamanism. And of course I can't write out the book. You have to read it, or "The Horse Boy" is also a documentary.

EDIT: Rowan's father and mother were representing the boy, they brought him to be healed. They had to take a huge leap to make this incredibly difficult journey. It sounded impossibly rough. I couldn't manage it.

And they mentioned something, there was a difference between being "healed" and "cured." A better quality of life, and continuously improving.


----------



## Soul Seeker

Are you sure he ingested nothing? In the movie they are shown trying to get him to drink what appears to be shamanic medicine, calling it "water"; however, it's not clear if he drank it or not.


----------



## Guest

The Shaman does NOT claim to have "the power." The shaman, like a priest or any other "Holy Person" is a CONDUIT TO HIGHER POWERS.

I am saying there are parallels to this in EVERY religion to one degree or another. I don't see how this is a problem.

*If the shaman is "only a man" and not someone "special or chosen -- as is indicated one shaman said Rowan might have been selected to BE a shaman" then why even go to a "ceremony" -- go through ritual. Just take the stuff at home. You don't need to spend a fortune on air travel, lodgings, food, paying the shaman, etc.*

We have to agree to disagree then. And now I'm confused.

If you read about world Mythology and Religions they all have many similarities. Read the brief Wikipedia summary I posted.


----------



## Guest

Soul Seeker said:


> Are you sure he ingested nothing? In the movie they are shown trying to get him to drink what appears to be shamanic medicine, calling it "water"; however, it's not clear if he drank it or not.


There was something he was supposed to drink, but after one taste (and these things tasted awful everywhere they went) Rowan threw (and that is a quote) the bowl away. The Shaman then said, "Well, it is a good sign that it landed face up vs. face down" or something ... Rowan just took one taste and threw the thing.

The parents drank all sorts of things. And ate pretty astonishing stuff.

Also, as one might expect in Russia. Everyone was always drinking Vodka!


----------



## Guest

PS, I would LOVE to swim with a dolphin!

From Wikipedia again:

"Shamanism is an anthropological term referencing a range of beliefs and practices regarding communication with the spiritual world.[2] In areas where indigenous shamanism still thrives, there is a clear divide between "lay" people (who participate in and practice shamanic belief and tradition) and the professionals or specialists themselves. A lay practitioner of shamanism is not awarded any special title, as this is the norm within traditional societies. A shamanic professional, who is a highly-trained and very often spiritually selected individual, is sometimes known as a shaman[not in citation given](play /ˈʃɑːmən/ shah-mən or /ˈʃeɪmən/ shay-mən).[3]
*
Shamanism encompasses the belief that shamans are intermediaries or messengers between the human world and the spirit worlds. Shamans are said to treat ailments/illness by mending the soul. Alleviating traumas affecting the soul/spirit restores the physical body of the individual to balance and wholeness. The shaman also enters supernatural realms or dimensions to obtain solutions to problems afflicting the community. Shamans may visit other worlds/dimensions to bring guidance to misguided souls and to ameliorate illnesses of the human soul caused by foreign elements. The shaman operates primarily within the spiritual world, which in turn affects the human world. The restoration of balance results in the elimination of the ailment.[4]*


----------



## Guest

anyone who does this, thinking it will cure there dp\dr is a complete idiot. taking hallucinogens will only give you more DP, especially with ayahuasca which primarily DMT, which is the most powerful hallucinogen known to man.


----------



## jakethelittle

Abraxas,

You probably mentioned it already, but can you tell me specifically where you had your ceremony at?


----------



## Abraxas

*Dreamer:*

While there are shamans/places that will have some religious belief system and may talk about it or even pray/chant (like in Santo Daime), I remind you i mentioned that my ceremonies were 100% religion-free, and there are many, many places where they serve ayahuasca without any cultish/religious tone to it, specially in Brazil. My shaman never ever talked about any spirit nor god, and if he did, i would just take it as a metaphor, like "People of the rocks, please grant us grounding and strength", etc. whatever, i did not need to have faith in "the People of the Rocks" for my healing process to be succesful. i did not give a fuck about the people of the rocks, i just thought: ok, im going to need grounding, say grounding on breath, or whatever you like to do to stay focused and aware.

It is definitely not the same thing to take ayahuasca on your own at home, and taking it with a shaman in nature. well.. first of all, nature is very very important. the setting is key when you go on a trip with any entheogen. bad settings can result in bad trips. Nature is a good setting, there is fresh air, open space, silence, green trees. you can set up a fire, not worry about neighbours and play some drums, etc.

Then, why the shaman? why do you visit the psychiatrist when you are on medication? because he knows about that which he is prescribing to you. if you have certain symptom, he might say: oh lets lower the dose, or lets add this other shit to it. 
With the shaman its the same. He knows ayahuasca. he knows its effects, he s probably seen many many things, and is prepared to help you and to guide you through the trip. now, this does not mean that you have to have faith in his belief system, you just need to have faith in him, not that he is supernatural in any way, simply, you trust his wisdom, you trust that he is wise, that he Knows, that he is a person of the earth, that he communes with nature, that he can "see" things that you might be blind to see at this stage of your life. But it is really no different than trusting and having faith in your psychologist or psychiatrist, or any person who is offering help to you. shamans are there to offer help, they serve ayahuasca because for them it is true medicine and everyone has the right to access its healing powers. true shamans do not charge any money, they do it for free. now, they might believe in certain spirits, goddesses, etc.. so what? its not like they re gonna have you kill a goat and drink its blood.









*D33za*:

well are you implying that i am an idiot? because i took ayahuasca hoping it would help with my dpd. And it did, im fully recovered. of course it is not the only thing which helped me, but really i would not be where i am if it wasnt for ayahuasca. also, its not like you take ayahausca and you sit down and then magically you are cured, like with psychiatric meds. It takes you on an inner journey where you are confronted with fears, obstacles, etc, its like a tool, but you have to perform the operation, you have to make the leap, you have to become the hero of your journey and let go of the fears and negative/wrong views that are making you ill. As a helping bonus, the vine helps you purge darkness and blocked emotions, and kills all the parasites in you, which has a very possitive impact on both physical and mental health. so there, thats what it does, it opens the wound, and cleans all the pus and rotten shit which was stuck/blocked inside (when this happens, you will feel horribly bad, everything is drenched in death and disease, but its normal its part of the cleaning process, as all these repressed rotten psychic content is surfacing to your conscious mind on one hand, and the parasites which are being killed release toxins into the bloodstream which take a toll on your body and well, also your brain, but its temporal and there is no permanent damage, you just have to take it in and wait for it to go away, your body will handle the toxins in time). then when the dirt goes away, you see clearly: oh, this is what i am afraid of. this is what caused this wound in the first place, and what was preventing it from healing. this is the fear that is taking control of my life. this is what im hiding behind, this is my mask, this is my shadow... and this is my true self. am i going to let it shine forth or am i going to keep burying it under dirt?

of course, you dont need ayahuasca for this, im guessing there are many ways, inner work is what you need, ayahuasca is just one tool. do what is best for you, just stop avoiding your self. at least thats what my DPD was about, obsessive fear about my own existence, about my own light, about the intensity of love and life. experiences migh differ though, this is just my story... if you do not coincide with my views or suggestions that is your right, but dont go about calling people who do idiots, i think anyone who is willing to try this after how i described it is very corageous. of course, it could make the DPD worse, i can not guarantee anything, and knowing first hand how intense ayahuasca is, i can see how it could go wrong for someone. but well, i made it clear that ayahuasca is a very powerful tool and not to be played with.

if the cure for DPD was so simple then i guess we wouldnt all be here on this forum. and me personally, after say, 5 years of DPD i would have danced around a pack of hyenas bathed in zebra blood and kicking them around as I invoke the "Daimon of the Urungu Grasslands"







in a mad chant... if that meant i had the slighliest chance of overcoming my dp. and even if i make it im still in the middle of fucking nowhere, lost in the savannah and bound to die but at least i will have a few days of being myself again. and maybe i can make out with a lizard or somethin. so really... ayahuasca is for people who like to kiss reptiles in the desert. i think that pretty much sums it up and no further discussion is necessary.


----------



## Guest

Good grief Abraxas. You're so CRABBY. And you still haven't told us all the experience. I want to hear the details or the post where you spoke of it. Everyone keeps asking. I want a STORY. I already read a book on a Mongolian experience, I'd like to hear yours!:

1. When/where exactly did you go?
2. Who went with you?
3. How did you get there?
4. What were the rituals like, etc.

And I said, I think regardless, that people going for DP/DR or brain disorder issues should go with a loved one or friend FOR SUPPORT. Nature and support go with it all.

There are so many types of shamanism all over the world, I know that.

I've put up the research I've done so far.
I've said, the shaman is a guide who is anything from a therapist to a priest.
Shamanism I found is probably the basis for all religions around the world, and it is mentioned actually that the concept of "the body and the blood of christ" come from some early ingestion of animals/plants with "spirit powers" etc.










Peace.
Also, Abraxas ... suddenly came to my old brain ... was that in Siddhartha? or something else by Hesse?
And cheers.


----------



## gaddis

Dreamer* said:


> Good grief Abraxas. You're so CRABBY. And you still haven't told us all the experience. I want to hear the details or the post where you spoke of it. Everyone keeps asking. I want a STORY. I already read a book on a Mongolian experience, I'd like to hear yours!:
> 
> 1. When/where exactly did you go?
> 2. Who went with you?
> 3. How did you get there?
> 4. What were the rituals like, etc.
> 
> And I said, I think regardless, that people going for DP/DR or brain disorder issues should go with a loved one or friend FOR SUPPORT. Nature and support go with it all.
> 
> There are so many types of shamanism all over the world, I know that.
> 
> I've put up the research I've done so far.
> I've said, the shaman is a guide who is anything from a therapist to a priest.
> Shamanism I found is probably the basis for all religions around the world, and it is mentioned actually that the concept of "the body and the blood of christ" come from some early ingestion of animals/plants with "spirit powers" etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peace.
> Also, Abraxas ... suddenly came to my old brain ... was that in Siddhartha? or something else by Hesse?
> And cheers.


Demian


----------



## Guest

gaddis said:


> Demian


Yes! Thanks! Wow, I read that years ago ...

"The bird fights its way out of the egg. The egg is the world. Who would be born must destroy a world. The bird flies to God. That God's name is Abraxas."
-Max Demian

I may reread that and Siddhartha, as I recall Demian had me confused as a teenager.


----------



## Abraxas

Addiecat said:


> wow I'm so glad I found this! My mum and her partner are, would you believe, shamans!... They devote their lives to making this medicine and going around australia holding circles for people that need healing, My mum and her partner have been telling me it's time to do it with them and that i need it to get better... But I'm so scared of it.. I'm a person who freaks out from drugs and i avoid them completely so i guess i'm scared that it will make me worse in the long run? i don't know.. maybe i should suck it up and just do it?


hi addiecat, thats amazing!! i wish my parents were shamans







. do they use ayahuasca? and/or other power plants?

do you have DPD? well i d definitely recommend you try ayahuasca then, specially if your own parents are the shamans!! Really dont be scared of it, it really has its own wisdom that guides you through the trip. you might go through some tough moments but you will know that it is all necesary and part of the healing process. im also quite freaked out with drugs in general, specially LSD, i d never do it again. but ayahuasca is on a whole different level. If anything goes wrong you know you have your parents there to give you support and to guide you. Once you take ayahuasca all you really need to do is to open up and trust mother earth, really just let go and trust its healing power. and if you feel nauseaus and sick (both physically and mentally) and feel like you need to purge, you just go on your own to some place, get it out of your system, and then come back to wherever the light is (fireplace, your parents, etc), dont stay there in the darkness. 
well im guessing your parents will have much more to say than me. but from my experience, knowing how much good it did to me, i d definitely say you should give it a try.


----------



## Abraxas

jakethelittle said:


> Good grief Abraxas. You're so CRABBY.


how am i crabby?!








muah!


----------



## Guest

Thanks *Abraxas*, if you wrote about them here you can simply give the links and not rewrite everything. I suppose I could search your posts.

Also *Addiecat*, if your Mom is a shaman, could you describe the type of ceremony she does .. she and her partner? And are you are saying there are many with DP who no longer have DP from working with your mother? Why haven't you tried this?


----------



## jakethelittle

Abraxas,

Hopefully your still willing to answer some more questions about Ayauascha, and I thank you for the input you've already put into it.

I'm curious about the ego-death aspect of it, because basically, DP is like a never ending ego death, and most people I have read about who take psychadelics for serious spiritual matters talk about losing their egos as a goal, and of course what I want more than anything to get my sense of ego FUCKING BACK!!!!


----------



## Wissel

I think the idea is to destroy your ego properly, so that you rebuild it in a way that is more harmonious. If you suffer a permanent ego fugue state it means the process surely isn't complete. Many psychedelic experiences talk about an ego-death process which you return to in the place you left off the last time. I certainly find that with my psychedelic experiences... even with marijuana.



jakethelittle said:


> Abraxas,
> 
> Hopefully your still willing to answer some more questions about Ayauascha, and I thank you for the input you've already put into it.
> 
> I'm curious about the ego-death aspect of it, because basically, DP is like a never ending ego death, and most people I have read about who take psychadelics for serious spiritual matters talk about losing their egos as a goal, and of course what I want more than anything to get my sense of ego FUCKING BACK!!!!


----------



## baking_pineapple

Posting a link that some of you may find interesting. Don't be turned off by the scientific ass-kissing (that is, validating everything he says ad absurdum) and the introdutory droll as his discussion of existential intelligence and its relation to entheogeon use is fascinating.


----------



## baking_pineapple

oh yeah, may need this: http://www.4shared.com/document/zdJtNpKY/11990980-Kenneth-Tupper-Entheo.html


----------



## Guest

http://news.vineofthesoul.com/post/782877530/kenneth-tupper-ayahuasca-and-psychedelics-use

It would seem someone produced a documentary re: this guy's ideas.

As noted, Western medicine back in the 1960s (Timothy Leary, et al.) saw connections between altered states created by LSD and other psychoactive drugs and the symptoms of mental illness. The drug culture that subsequently emerged put all of this underground. Anthropologists have been studying the use of such drugs for some time.

I do believe these drugs can give us insight into how the brain works, but as I've always said, modern medicines and rec drugs come from plant sources.

Current research has found Ayahuasca may be helpful in addiction. (Alcohol I believe, maybe other things.) Symptoms from these drugs mimic schizoprhenia, psychosis, etc. If one can understand the effect of these drugs on the brain, that is extremely helpful.

I have no clue what to make of the effects of said drugs. I've said many times, I would never try this stuff unless I were on my death bed. That is simply my choice. These things affect people very differently.

I also question the concept that this opens our minds ... I recently saw a special on individuals who have "near death experiences" -- I can't explain them, but my theory is there is indeed some hard wired reactions to dying and they vary by culture. It is not surprising that the themes (Christ and angels vs. seeing another type of "heaven") are different per culture.

Also, I am ever amazed at individuals with neurological disorders who have religious experiences, and that OBE can be created by stimulated by the brain in certain areas. All sorts of perceptual distortions.

I think there is promise in research into these drugs, but people constantly forget that many drugs used today were inspired by plants and old remedies -- the earliest being Opium (from the poppy) and alcohol (these are "natural drugs". There are only so many elements on Earth. There is no "magic" as I see it.

I say go for any neurological research to find answers. But as always the brain is so infinitely complex, I truly don't know if we will ever understand consciousness or even the afterlife, etc.

As noted, no, I am not spiritual, but as far as MY experience with DP/DR is concerned I wouldn't treat it with a hallucinogen ... I'd probably jump off a cliff. But that is MY POV. Using this as a jumping board for all manner of treatments is great. But that is why we want to maintain the oceans and the rainforests. Plants and animals (sea creatures and such) produce toxins and other things that prove medicinal ... to treat physical illnesses as well has help us understand neurological disorders.


----------



## Edis

Hi I have researched this quite a lot and believe you is it possible to send me some information on this.
I also like your post on meditation which is ace for anxiety

Regards Mark


----------



## Pablo

So I should probably do an update, last month I went to Peru for about two weeks to try Ayahuasca to try to get a cure, there is also another member here who went too called pwcinema but unfortunately our times didn't match up so he went a few weeks before me, although we kept in touch a bit with our progress. I could probably write a whole essay about this trip but I am unsure if I should write my full story as I doubt many people would have it as rough as me so my experiences may not be the best indicator as to what to expect, basically the Ayahuasca magnifies all your fears 100% so it can be a very rough ride so I would only recommend it to people who are prepared to face that.

At the end of it I don't feel cured but I do feel that there are cracks in the walls of my problems, I feel personal interactions are a bit easier and my emotions are flowing a bit better and things generally seem clearer even weeks after I coming back, although I still have a long way to go, perhaps with more time I could have made more progress as I only had two weeks but I couldn't afford to stay longer, maybe the cracks will bring it all down in the end time will tell. Hopefully pwcinema will update his story when he can but I think he is still in Peru as for him it sounds like it has been completely transformative as he is still out there working with it to further his healing. I see how Ayahuasca can help cure many problems, it forces you to face and let go of your fears and for many people it even forces you to face your own death, at one point I thought I had put myself in a permanent state of insanity for life which if you can imagine is a pretty stressful place to go to, but I survived and feel all the better for it, but it also puts you in touch with your real inner goodness which can be like rediscovering yourself or coming home. It's still not something I would recommend for everyone with psychological problems as it is pretty extreme medicine but if you feel called and ready for it then it could help.

Thanks to Abraxas for making this thread otherwise I probably would never have gone at all.


----------



## kate_edwin

Please please talk to a psychiatrist or psychopharmacologist who is experincd wih this substance befoee you try it. It has Maoi properties, those interact with many drugs, suppliments and many foods. They suggest a full 2 weeks off oher things when starting a rx maoi so I'd take the same precautions with this. Either research it yourself or have Someone who knows about medicine/ brain chemicals etc. And talk to people, in person not just in a chatroom who's tried it before. And even though it's not a medical substance, please be under a dr s direct supervison


----------



## Soul Seeker

You will never get to do ayahuasca under a doctor's supervision, unless you find some kind of rare research program, and in that case you probably wouldn't get access to a shaman (in all likelihood, somebody much more qualified to administer ayahuasca than a doctor).


----------



## Kestner

It's 2013 now, almost 2 years since someone posted anything to this mind-boggling thread...

Has anyone else here, who suffers/suffered from DP, and tried ayahuasca, can share their story?

After 13 miserable years of DP, I think it's time for some radical measures!


----------



## Pmz623

would this sound like a good idea for someone has DP from MDMA/ketamine "overdose".

Ive been debating whether my DP is an anxiety thing, because my anxiety is so distant lately. My biggest symptoms are loss of my spark in life (no real excitability), memory, loss of cognition(feeling a bit dumber). Im not sure if the drugs I took actually caused a physical shift of my brain that really just needs to heal. Over the past month, ive actually been feeling alot better, though I feel like there is a massive emotional blockage thats holding me back from feeling real empathy and joy and real sadness. I cant even cry when I want to. My vision is stilled F-ed up as well.

My DP isnt from one experiance, I got it breifly for a few days after the same drug combination, but had no idea what it was, I just knew I didnt feel right and it subsided a few days later and I felt perfectly normal. Then 3 weeks later, I ate alot of Molly(~a gram of strong molly) and blew K over the weekend. This triggered a really bad brain fog, which lead me to realize that something was wrong when I tried to work the next monday, when I felt like I couldnt think clearly (no DP at this point) i started freaking out leading to really bad anxiety. I think it took about 2 days for actual DP to really set in. This is why I feel like I fucked up my brain. I read alot of people do drugs and wake up the next day with DP. This wasnt my case. I was actually pretty happy the next day besides feeling a bit stupid, but I was cool with that because I knew I rolled hard the night before and it was a expected side effect for about a day. Though, this never went away there for anxiety, there for Dp.

Ive take mushrooms in the past and had nothing but amazing experiances and felt like I could handle the trip pretty well. Ive also take LSD and loved that as well.

So I guess does it sound like this might good for me.

Its been 7 months now. And the fact that Im getting better, and slowely feeling closer to my self each week, I might not even want to consider this till a few months from now. I feel like even in 2 months things will get alot better. Many people report not feeling better after such a time, but I am, so the real question, I guess im on the right track and I should just wait it out.

Regardless Im still interested in this trip and would like to experiment after the DP is long and gone


----------



## Kestner

Pmz623 said:


> Its been 7 months now. And the fact that Im getting better, and slowely feeling closer to my self each week, I might not even want to consider this till a few months from now. I feel like even in 2 months things will get alot better. Many people report not feeling better after such a time, but I am, so the real question, I guess im on the right track and I should just wait it out.


As long as you feel you're getting better I think it's better just to let nature do it's thing.

IMO, ayahuasca should be a last resort kinda thing.


----------



## planet

ayahuasca would be the last thing I would do before going insane


----------



## Abraxas

Just to update on this: I had a psychosis a year ago (two years after I posted this for the first time)

I dont know if it is in any way connected to my taking Ayahuasca. Ayahuasca did seem to help me a lot at the time, and it was probably the best experience in my life, its soul-revealing.

But well, I am in no position to advice anyone to take it. Its really up to you.

Now im doing orthomolecular medicine and its been 3 months now since I have no DP nor psychotic symptoms, I feel like i felt back before all went wrong 7 years ago

Take care and hope you all get better... keep trying, dont give up, dont accept this as your reality. Take a chance and do something alternative.

love,

Ab.


----------



## Wacko

I know that orthomolecular medicine corrects imbalances but how are you using this type of medicine? What type of imbalances have you identified with this approach? It seems very interesting since everyone has some type of a disbalance that can be corrected once identified.


----------



## Disruption

im very interested in this i feel i always wanted to do aya even before my dp/dr started...now i have it for 1 1/2 year and it seems as im stuck at some point of recovery...i guess i will wait another 1 1/2 year while doing everything i can to help myself and if i still have dp/dr i will do aya to try if mother ayahuasca can show me the right path to inner peace...

btw. my dp/dr was triggered by an overdose of mushrooms...


----------



## Aire

Lately I've been interested in what the sublime feels like, and you're describing to me a sort of opening of the wound to unpour your subconscious plaque build-up, so to speak, and I have been after that in a less psychoactive sort of way. Say, an intensive physical and mental exercise in the bowels of nature. Some rainforest adventure or mountain trek with beautiful oversights and an abandoning of the past and all of that. So that, the effects that you described in a more acute manner (sort of un-correlated emotions being ripped out of you in each ceremony) would find their equivalent in the healthy, natural stress I would put my body under.

The sublime: something so novel and surreal and it peels off a protective layer or two. I want to experience that without psychoactives. Based on your experience, would you say this is a good line of thinking?


----------



## Abraxas

Guys Im thinking about deleting this thread, I still get emails about people wanting to try ayahuasca, and I really dont feel, right now in this moment of my life, that Ayahuasca is the way to go.

Anyone here has actually tried ayahuasca after reading this? what were your experiences? i d like to know and make a conscious/informed decision about deleting the thread or leaving it like this for informational purposes.


----------



## Disruption

Abraxas said:


> Guys Im thinking about deleting this thread, I still get emails about people wanting to try ayahuasca, and I really dont feel, right now in this moment of my life, that Ayahuasca is the way to go.
> 
> Anyone here has actually tried ayahuasca after reading this? what were your experiences? i d like to know and make a conscious/informed decision about deleting the thread or leaving it like this for informational purposes.


i still didnt try aya so i cant give a report...but did it help you?


----------



## TDX

> i d like to know and make a conscious/informed decision about deleting the thread or leaving it like this for informational purposes.


Let it remain alive.


----------



## AMUNT

Abraxas said:


> Just to update on this: I had a psychosis a year ago (two years after I posted this for the first time)
> 
> I dont know if it is in any way connected to my taking Ayahuasca. Ayahuasca did seem to help me a lot at the time, and it was probably the best experience in my life, its soul-revealing.
> 
> But well, I am in no position to advice anyone to take it. Its really up to you.
> 
> Now im doing orthomolecular medicine and its been 3 months now since I have no DP nor psychotic symptoms, I feel like i felt back before all went wrong 7 years ago
> 
> Take care and hope you all get better... keep trying, dont give up, dont accept this as your reality. Take a chance and do something alternative.
> 
> love,
> 
> Ab.


I have heard many say you only get Psychosis from Psychadelic drugs if you are predisposed to in the first place, dont know what to make of it


----------



## Disruption

i think about taking it but im afraid to get a mega strong panic attack that lasts for hours since my dp/dr started when i was on an overdose of mushrooms where i experienced the strongest panic attack i could think of..thats what kept me away from aya cuse i dont even dare to try mushrooms or lsd again



AMUNT said:


> I have heard many say you only get Psychosis from Psychadelic drugs if you are predisposed to in the first place, dont know what to make of it


you cant get psychosis from psychs if you dont even have the predisposition....dp/dr doesnt mean psychosis so what are you afraid of


----------



## Abraxas

Disruption said:


> you cant get psychosis from psychs if you dont even have the predisposition....dp/dr doesnt mean psychosis so what are you afraid of


Well, I got a psychosis about two years after I developed DP/DR. Maybe they were two separate, unrelated conditions. But maybe there is a link so be careful.


----------



## Kestner

Abraxas said:


> Guys Im thinking about deleting this thread, I still get emails about people wanting to try ayahuasca, and I really dont feel, right now in this moment of my life, that Ayahuasca is the way to go.
> 
> Anyone here has actually tried ayahuasca after reading this? what were your experiences? i d like to know and make a conscious/informed decision about deleting the thread or leaving it like this for informational purposes.


Hey Abraxas

I've taken Ayahuasca around 50 times since your first account you published here on 2011.

It's an incredible deep healing tool to confront yourself with your innermost issues, and there lies the possibility of a cure.

As you know it's a peeling process, not a magic pill solution.

Please keep this thread on, for people to get informed about this miraculous plant (a 2-plant combination actually).

Love to all


----------



## apoplexy

TDX said:


> Let it remain alive.


Why? Surely using ayahuasca as a "treatment option" is absurdly dangerous. This is like the 100th story I've heard of someone using DMT, ayahuasca, ibogaine, etc and breaking into psychosis.

In my opinion, you need to have rocks in your head to consider such substances "promising treatment options."


----------

