# DP is ego death



## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

"Ego-death" is a state preceding enlightenment. It is what some sages refer to as "dark night of the soul". The symptoms are in accordance with what many people experience in this state. It is commonly confusion, dismay, disassociation.

You disassociate when your ego (self-identity) becomes bruised. Your perception of your former life becomes a distortion, a phantasm of the past. You try to adjust to the former perception preceding DP but it no longer works.

This perception of the world feels outdated. You no longer refuse to be a part of the "lower levels".

"Enlightenment" and "recovery" is kind of like shedding snakeskin. You need to let go of that outdated perception.


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## kelly326 (Dec 10, 2013)

This is exactly how I feel!! Awesome post!!!!


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## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

Cihan said:


> So being sexually abused is what enlightens you ?


That's just awfull I'm so sorry to hear that 

And no of course it doesn't enlighten u !!


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## Haumea (Jul 11, 2009)

DPD is nothing like enlightenment. People with DPD have limited, reduced or nonexistent control over their negative thoughts, bad feelings and fears. Enlightened people are able to control all of these, but may also experience detachment from their physical body as the "spirit" becomes liberated from the constraints of flesh.

That's the key difference as far as enlightenment vs. non-enlightenment - *non-identification with the contents of the mind*. DPD is strongly identifying with all the negative or scary contents of the mind.


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## Pyrite (Mar 25, 2014)

DP it's self is not the enlightenment; DP is the signal that something is seriously wrong in your life and that you need to repair and better yourself. that's where the enlightenment comes in, when you've moved past and fixed whatever those issues were.


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## Linguos (Jan 12, 2012)

The dark night of Buddhism, in my understanding, refers to the cycle of jhanas, being the 3rd of 4. These are broken down into 16 nyanas that must be progressively attained by some method, for example vipassana. After attaining the 2nd jhana, or especially after the completion of the first path, stream entry, an individual tends to cycle through jhanas in non-meditative states 24/7. However, getting stuck in the 3rd is typical. At that point one cycles from the first nyana up to the highest one attained all day, meaning they're stuck in the dark night, or the dissolution of the self. It's different than depersonalization, although some theorize that enlightenment is similar to depersonalization without the presence of anxiety. That being said, there are two main ideas of enlightenment in Buddhism itself. The other being hyper-present and aware of the ever present, unchanging witness behind the eyes. This one involves no jhanas, and reminds me of a pure consciousness experience. Not that that has bearing on the OP.

If you're interested in experimenting with this read Daniel Ingram's free ebook.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

Buddhism tossed aside for a moment,

Let's get something straight here

I am not a sage. I am not a mystic. Although I am promoting these ideas because I think it could benefit others as it has benefitted me, you need to take some things with a grain of salt.

If you *do not* agree with anything I am saying, please don't feel discouraged. DP does not have to be about "enlightenment", "emptiness", "non-duality", or any of these things I am telling you about.

I am not trying to tell you that this is the only method of recovering set in stone. It's an interesting way to recover, indeed, but the way people recover varies on their own subjective experiences with DP. It could be as simple as using common sense that might lead you to recovery.

Spiritual talks can get a little messy.

I am not trying to give anyone false information that may form disarray in your life.


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## MissySS1 (Jan 12, 2014)

I completely agree with this...


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## Haumea (Jul 11, 2009)

LesMiserables,

Actually with Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy they are pretty much acknowledging that the spiritual path (or at least spiritual techniques) are the way out of neurosis.

But the key issue is...who's controlling whom? Are your thoughts controlling you, or are you controlling your thoughts?


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

Haumea said:


> LesMiserables,
> 
> Actually with Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy they are pretty much acknowledging that the spiritual path (or at least spiritual techniques) are the way out of neurosis.
> 
> But the key issue is...who's controlling whom? Are your thoughts controlling you, or are you controlling your thoughts?


You are the thoughts and then you become the silence. You are awareness behind awareness, like a thousand mirrors.


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## Linguos (Jan 12, 2012)

I've been thinking a lot lately how ironic it is that normal people seek the equanimity of enlightenment, while the DP'ed hope the same methods make them normal. You never know what you already have till it's gone.


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## marry1985 (Dec 1, 2013)

One could perceive dp as enlightenment if it helps. But as long as dp is associated with depression and a sort of fucked life (I am talking about me here), unfortunately there s no enlightmenment I can see. I think this approach can be usefull to those who can accept dp in their life. I still can t belive this is happening to me and I do hope I will have my personality back, and my memories, and my feelings. Hm, so many hopes right?


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

It isn't just about enlightenment

The whole purpose of it is to better you, otherwise you should not follow it. It's about reconstructing yourself.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

Linguos said:


> I've been thinking a lot lately how ironic it is that normal people seek the equanimity of enlightenment, while the DP'ed hope the same methods make them normal. You never know what you already have till it's gone.


Hehe


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## Linguos (Jan 12, 2012)

Les Misérables said:


> You are the thoughts and then you become the silence. You are awareness behind awareness, like a thousand mirrors.


Not to get spiritual.. but deep in my existentially ridden phase of DP I followed the instructions of that aforementioned book. And as outlandish as it likely sounds to you all I did indeed experience the jhanas exactly as described, and it wasn't a placebo because I was meditating tons prior to the book, and it was the stumbling into the 2nd jhana like a bag of bricks that floored me and prompted immediate Googling. This led down a load road of vipassana until I found that book. In the 4th jhana you lose all perception of everything, nearly all of the self, only a modicum remains until it flickers out and you hit stream entry. You feel like infinity with no body, ego, or anything. It's impossible to describe, but if you felt it that question you asked becomes answered. It is what it is.

I know this is all besides the point. Again. Just a monumental interest of mine..


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## Linguos (Jan 12, 2012)

I meamt to include Haumea's quote too..


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

I don't meditate.

I don't want to become infinity, have no body, those sorts.

I just want to have a normal life.

Infinity is just a human estimation.


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## Linguos (Jan 12, 2012)

Nah, it's just a surreal altered state of consciousness. Anyways DP'ed people on average probably can't meditate properly, or let everything go, too obsessive.

Same with being in the moment. "Have I been present? ...So so, okay, keep it up. ...Focus on the outside. Good. Wait I've been measuring how much I haven't been measuring the whole time haven't I? Crap, well, stop. Wait don't be hard on yourself, trying to get better. .... .... Doing good, things are finally looking good. Hitting new heights here. ... WTF, why am I suddenly derealizing so badly? I've been doing so well for 10 minutes. Oh, I was zoning out and sinking inward... Sooo it's not just inner dialogue I need to avoid, I need to stay focused on the outer world steadfastly. Ugh all this DR made me tired, now I'm yawning. How am I going to handle work tomorrow if I can't handle a 10 minute walk?! It's just the anxiety talking. Don't let it control you.. oh man, I guess I really gave my hopes up, I thought I figured it out. I really am going to have to live with this. But I already accepted that completely... didn't I? Wait, you know not to try to figure it out, it's just a tired mind and this stuff is tiring it more, be in the moment. Ugh... "


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2014)

Linguos said:


> Nah, it's just a surreal altered state of consciousness. Anyways DP'ed people on average probably can't meditate properly, or let everything go, too obsessive.
> 
> Same with being in the moment. "Have I been present? ...So so, okay, keep it up. ...Focus on the outside. Good. Wait I've been measuring how much I haven't been measuring the whole time haven't I? Crap, well, stop. Wait don't be hard on yourself, trying to get better. .... .... Doing good, things are finally looking good. Hitting new heights here. ... WTF, why am I suddenly derealizing so badly? I've been doing so well for 10 minutes. Oh, I was zoning out and sinking inward... Sooo it's not just inner dialogue I need to avoid, I need to stay focused on the outer world steadfastly. Ugh all this DR made me tired, now I'm yawning. How am I going to handle work tomorrow if I can't handle a 10 minute walk?! It's just the anxiety talking. Don't let it control you.. oh man, I guess I really gave my hopes up, I thought I figured it out. I really am going to have to live with this. But I already accepted that completely... didn't I? Wait, you know not to try to figure it out, it's just a tired mind and this stuff is tiring it more, be in the moment. Ugh... "


Haha...you just wrote my daily mind chatter narrative word for word.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

Linguos said:


> Nah, it's just a surreal altered state of consciousness. Anyways DP'ed people on average probably can't meditate properly, or let everything go, too obsessive.
> Same with being in the moment. "Have I been present? ...So so, okay, keep it up. ...Focus on the outside. Good. Wait I've been measuring how much I haven't been measuring the whole time haven't I? Crap, well, stop. Wait don't be hard on yourself, trying to get better. .... .... Doing good, things are finally looking good. Hitting new heights here. ... WTF, why am I suddenly derealizing so badly? I've been doing so well for 10 minutes. Oh, I was zoning out and sinking inward... Sooo it's not just inner dialogue I need to avoid, I need to stay focused on the outer world steadfastly. Ugh all this DR made me tired, now I'm yawning. How am I going to handle work tomorrow if I can't handle a 10 minute walk?! It's just the anxiety talking. Don't let it control you.. oh man, I guess I really gave my hopes up, I thought I figured it out. I really am going to have to live with this. But I already accepted that completely... didn't I? Wait, you know not to try to figure it out, it's just a tired mind and this stuff is tiring it more, be in the moment. Ugh... "


The ego. *laughs*


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## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

Cihan said:


> I wasn't sexually abused, that was just an example.
> Sorry about the misunderstanding.


Well I'm glad to hear u were not!

There is some ppl on here that have gone thru that unfortunately


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## Haumea (Jul 11, 2009)

There is no "normal" life. What is "normal"? An average level of dissatisfaction and attachment?

You want stability of consciousness, but that doesn't exist. Evolve or devolve are the only options.

Good metaphor for the thousand mirrors. I think of it as many nested dreams. You wake out of dream number 1 into dream number 2...and so on. Like Inception.

The whole reason you (and I believe many of us) have DP is to attain this understanding - just as you wish to leave DP behind, you'll wish to go to a higher level in due time.


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## fieldsmatt31 (Dec 16, 2009)

i used to have this "dp" stuff. the main thing that i remember is that i didn't know who i was and i was traumatized with fear by this question, who am i?

trying to be somebody. trying to act like somebody. trying to talk like somebody. so very stressful to worry about being a person !!

the feelings of dp went away gradually as i learned and practiced meditation, when i could relax, as i became healthy.

being comfortable, eating healthy, meditation, meditation, and mediation were for me very important in dispelling this terrible confusion and the feelings of dp accosiated with it.

the feeling of dp went away gradually and sometimes instantly. pretty much the way clouds behave in the sky. for a while it was back and forth. oh i feel depersonalized today. oh today i don't. but y is that?

now there is absolutely no feelings of dp. that seems forever ago.

but i still don't know who i am, because im not a person at all. that is a misunderstanding, kinda like a fantasy or a dillusion. more like a fantasy that you sincerilly believe in and are attached to.

don't be a concept of your self. find out, existentially, with total honesty what it is that you are. hence, meditation. you will find there is nothing you can identify with, except nothing itself.


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## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

I believe dp is the opposite end of enlightenment...I think I got it in order to evolve spiritually. The only way out of dp is by expressing ur emotions right...so once u do that u become enlightened and what used to bother u no longer does..u now vibrate at the highest level and life only just begins 

Well that's how I felt when I was dp free for a while


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## Guest (May 16, 2014)

i exactly know what you mean. How did you get rid of DP in the first place? How come it's harder to get enlightned the second time?



missjess said:


> I believe dp is the opposite end of enlightenment...I think I got it in order to evolve spiritually. The only way out of dp is by expressing ur emotions right...so once u do that u become enlightened and what used to bother u no longer does..u now vibrate at the highest level and life only just begins
> 
> Well that's how I felt when I was dp free for a while


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## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

Well I worked with an amazing counselor and we slowly changed my conditioning and childhood beliefs, faced my social fears, learned to love myself.

Well now I just feel different I'll give u an example, I found a new job and was going to attempt to recover again but when I went into the job I felt bored, I felt zero fear when I should have and I dunno I just felt all around burnt out.

When I had dp the first time I would get waves of anxiety and shit when I would dive into something I feared...but not anymore and I guess I developed anhedonia too. Nothing felt good anymore and I just couldn't connect and I just got over the entire thing,


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## Riah (Feb 17, 2014)

I remember before I had DP, my boyfriend mentioned that he wanted to experience ego death by taking hallucinogens. I had no idea what it meant.

Then months later, after I had been experiencing depersonalization, and particularly one bad episode, he said that I had been essentially experiencing ego death; I could lose the feeling of what the sense of "I" or "myself" was, or lose the feeling of what I even was.


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## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

Tell ur bf not to mess around with hallucinogens some of them can rlly mess u up


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## Riah (Feb 17, 2014)

missjess said:


> Tell ur bf not to mess around with hallucinogens some of them can rlly mess u up


Yeah, we're educated about them now.


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

Well, I shouldn't have come and looked at the forum this morning, lol.

A few comments.
No, DP/DR is not enlightenment. And enlightenment is completely misunderstood. Someone around here has to read Thich Nhat Hahn's "The Miracle of Mindfulness" or look into the goals of Dialectical Behavioral Therapy. Also, Rick Hanson "Buddha's Brain" is fascinating (the neuroscience of buddhist thought) or "Just One Thing" a wonderful little workbook to focus on exercises to help you with ... perhaps just one issue.

Tackle the small things. Day by day, minute by minute.

I also find it very difficult to meditate w/DP/DR -- I don't like to close my eyes -- I feel more disengaged so I look around the room, listen to music. But meditation is used by EVERYONE ... businessmen, athletes, etc. Everyone has yammering negative voices. Some people more than others. But we are always worrying/analyzing to one degree or another. Those of us here with anxiety/depression, etc. do so more until it interferes with life.

Those who are "experts" at meditation allow negative thoughts, and even comments from other people, or negative events, pass ... as that is what life is. You acknowledge the negative -- it is a part of everyone's life -- realize it will pass and live in the present. It serves no purpose to keep beating yourself up (the yakking voice in your head). It serves absolutely No purpose.

What meditation helps with is you try to find small parts in your day to simply let negative thoughts "pass through your mind" ... simply focus on breathing (I focus on counting my breathes or counting the length of a yoga stretch -- say a count of 30). You find that you can TO A DEGREE calm these thoughts -- or I should say, have fewer of them.

*And I find it troubling that SUBJECT headings "state facts" or that's what it sounds like.

I have no idea why people here don't say, "Could DP be Ego Death" vs. "DP IS Ego Death."*

No one has determined what is going on in our brains with DP/DR. There are a million theories.

My approach is use the tools that are most effective to you, that speak to you, in helping you get well.

No one hear has all the answers. No one. I include myself.

Well, I'm going to have fun today. I'm going to a one year old's birthday party. And here is meditation -- I made him his card. I drew a silly picture and I went to the craft store and got glitter pens for a buck. I spent a good bit of time decorating the card. There were moments I was "in the Present" -- not analyzing "is this good enough" ... my DP/DR didn't go away ... but this gave me some positive feelings.

Just look for scraps of joy in life. That's what everyone is doing. It is far more difficult if you have DP/DR or any brain issue.

IMHO


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## Spinachroll (May 20, 2014)

Haumea said:


> DPD is nothing like enlightenment. People with DPD have limited, reduced or nonexistent control over their negative thoughts, bad feelings and fears. Enlightened people are able to control all of these, but may also experience detachment from their physical body as the "spirit" becomes liberated from the constraints of flesh.
> 
> That's the key difference as far as enlightenment vs. non-enlightenment - *non-identification with the contents of the mind*. DPD is strongly identifying with all the negative or scary contents of the mind.


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## Spinachroll (May 20, 2014)

Jurgen said:


> "Ego-death" is a state preceding enlightenment. It is what some sages refer to as "dark night of the soul". The symptoms are in accordance with what many people experience in this state. It is commonly confusion, dismay, disassociation.
> 
> You disassociate when your ego (self-identity) becomes bruised. Your perception of your former life becomes a distortion, a phantasm of the past. You try to adjust to the former perception preceding DP but it no longer works.
> 
> ...


Maybe you dissasociate from yourself in one level or another, but if DP was triggered by for example intense suicidal depression like me, there's really no bliss about the thoughts. It's wierd because if I would write down my symtoms many of them would sound like a spiritual enlightenment, but I know it's not, maybe a little bit in some way but for the most part it's really not. Also some of my symtoms would still sound very bad (suicidal anxiety depression). My identity has become very threatened, but I can't do anything about feeling suicidal about it. It's not enlightenment. It's a bit hard to explain.


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## Spinachroll (May 20, 2014)

fieldsmatt31 said:


> i used to have this "dp" stuff. the main thing that i remember is that i didn't know who i was and i was traumatized with fear by this question, who am i?
> 
> trying to be somebody. trying to act like somebody. trying to talk like somebody. so very stressful to worry about being a person !!
> 
> ...


Being somebody is supposed to be fun. It's the fun part of life. But if it can't be fun anymore I guess you drop it.


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## jonobe (Jun 20, 2014)

I have enjoyed reading this post.

I don't think, however, you can generalise that recovery is like shedding a skin. It's easy to say and believe these things as a kind of 'truth' that have to be followed or acknowledged, but people are more complex than that. Emotions can run deep and just to 'shed' a layer will not necessarily integrate you as a person. It could also be a case of denial of the very emotions you need to integrate and come to terms with.

Your beliefs may help you (I hope they do), and you may believe they help others (they may do), but I would be wary of ever accepting an external 'truth' or 'belief' that makes everything better. Getting better is difficult and can be a tough path to climb. It is not a simple philosophy or sound-bite that will make you better, it is about becoming more in touch with who you are, what you feel (including the feeling of emptiness) in the here and now and acknowledging your vulnerabilities, frailties and fears as well as your courage, determination and will to recover.

But then, that's my take. We all have our own paths to tread.


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## jonobe (Jun 20, 2014)

Spinachroll said:


> Being somebody is supposed to be fun. It's the fun part of life. But if it can't be fun anymore I guess you drop it.


No, when it stops being fun is when it gets serious. And sometimes getting serious is a good thing and you need to do it and you're worth it. Fun times WILL come back, believe me.

We're often told life 'should' be fun - no, life is not one-dimensional, life has many moods. And we need these moods to be full human beings.

Good luck.


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