# Buddhism and Depersonalization.



## Floating Tears (Jul 27, 2009)

I found this on google "The Buddhist Blog: Buddhism and Depersonalization." while seaching... looks like an interesting read. I can't post links yet but just google for "Buddhism and Depersonalization.".


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## backagain (Aug 8, 2009)

I have heard that buddhists actually strive for the depersonalized derealized state of mind.. They see it as some sort of intermediary state towards enlightenment.

I can see it the same way, but the people who get dp/dr aren't usually aware of this, they got to be that way in one way or another but not by using the steps the buddha shows and So they are completely bewildered by the experience as it is one that they did not strive for _consciously_ and is in stark contrast to the reality that they have been brought up and conditioned to believe. This is the battle that most dp/dr sufferers are fighting. They want to go _back_ to the way things _were_ before dp/dr but it is not wise to want to go back to the beginning as it will only lead you back where you started, to the beginning of the tunnel. In the midst of the darkness of the mind tunnel, we are surrounded by all kinds of illusions that blind us and hold us back from ever breaking through our *minds darkness*. The _fear inside_ of us* keeps us* and we become trapped in the endless darkness of our mind's insecurity, governed by our own illusioned thoughts, emotions, behaviors, closed in views, etc. That we hold onto to preserve the existence we know through the ego identity we have developed in this period of time and within the confines of our social structure.

We must seek the awareness that leads us through the tunnel, the self less awareness, compassion, understanding of existence and we must find something to believe in other than our selfish egotistical existence of self and it's own self preserving ways. You must go through the tunnel of darkness and come out through the other side to find the light of truth of being inside. Each mental tunnel is unique to the person and synonymous with his/her own judgements outward/inward reflecting illusions back and forth to preserve continuation of the ego and it's desires for fulfillment that blind us from gaining glimpses of the ultimate reality of life.

Have you ever gone through a dark tunnel ? For example when I was a young kid, I would find myself roaming through a sewer wash where there was no light just trash,darkness, graffiti, and no visible outcome of what was to be, there was only a tunnel of darkness ahead. During the encounter with the tunnel you are uncertain, insecure, fearful and all these question marks in your mind keep you from stepping forward into the uncertainty of the dark tunnel. There you contemplate if you should go through to see what becomes of it or stand before it in wonder of what could be. You either succumb to the perils of the mind or you overcome the fear in search of a greater answer. The mental *fear within the self arises from the perception of the unknown darkness of the tunnel of what the tunnel may bring which reflects only the unknown darkness within our own mind.* You come to either fight these uncertain contemplations of existence or you stay in the boundary limit of "self" preserving state of mind. If you take the steps forward through the tunnel of darkness with each step into darkness comes more uncertainty, further distancing yourself from your previous place of comfort of not knowing and moving onto the answer of knowing. So as I step through, I become selfless, distancing myself from the illusions of the mind and moving forward with the power of the wonder of what is to be. A trip through a dark tunnel of unknown outcome is in itself a trip that defies the rules of the self governed mind. The *darkness* is *blinding* but the _question_ is still there as I hold on to the faith of _wonder_ and what is to become of the tunnel, halfway through the tunnel you are caught in between 2 self made realities, the reality of a previous self and the reality of a new self. When you decide to keep moving into the new self you take with you the self made reality of the previous self and until you reach the light at the end of the tunnel, you cannot begin to reflect on the judgments of that previous self. So When your eyes finally reach the end of the tunnel and the light at the end of the tunnel reaches your eyes,. You are given a new meaning, an answer to the fears that blinded you. A refreshing vision of the world on the other side of that tunnel. The sense of self is replenished with the shining light of knowing, the spirit is strengthened to move ahead and in my own personal belief it means God is happy for you. The God in us all

What is it that keeps us moving ahead, is it not the wonder of what will be ? Have we lost the wonder that drives us to go on ? Are we stopped in our tracks by our self made realities of what is and what is not. Are we trapped between the beginning and end of a dark tunnel of mind. Can we accept ourselves and move on to what the Buddha was trying to teach us. It's up to us as individuals to find our way in this world, it's up to us set our own paths and hold onto the faith that leads us to our destination. It's up to you to know what is right for you. But do you know who you really are ? Behind all the fascades that we reflect in the mirror, behind all the illusions that we reflect off each other, behind the meanings we infer from the judgments of others, Behind what we believe is key to our survival, behind all that there is a real person inside. One with no rules, no boundaries, no attachments, the eternal being within.


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## DownTheRabbitHole (May 30, 2009)

good post backagain, id say that was worth a thread of its own, some deep shizzles! and almost inspiring in some sense to me personally.


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## backagain (Aug 8, 2009)

Sorry I went off on a tagent hope u understand


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2009)

Interesting Floating Tears. This is something I'm researching and writing a short article on. Started to do this on my blog and it's gotten to long.

At any rate: the link: http://thebuddhistblog.blogspot.com/200 ... ation.html



the author of the blog said:


> This all said, I have found Buddhism to be like another psychiatrist who has a tried and true prescription for emotional stress--meditation.
> 
> When I find myself outside looking in and feel it really interfering with my day or lasting longer than usual I have watered the seeds of good habit energy enough to feel some doer inside that body move for me to get on the meditation cushion. So when I start breathing and concentrate upon that I feel my body and mind return together in union. The breathing is like a gentle guide helping me return to the reality of oneness much like someone helping a person with dementia return to a place of security and peace.
> 
> *[/i]Another good habit that I've developed to help connect me back to my body and present moment is to touch the ground from time to time while meditating as the Buddha did. It helps me feel something tangible that anchors me back into the experience of being.*[/i] I have also found it helpful to wear a strand of prayer beads or mala around my wrist at all times because it is another physical touch object that brings me back to the present moment. It is comforting to feel a fabricated object touch my skin because it helps me remember that my body is in fact real. It also reminds me at the same time of the teachings of Buddha to remind me that I what I'm experiencing is a delusion which sometimes helps me return to myself.


The author has an interesting POV, and a good attitude.

I my studies of Buddhism which are basically Zen Buddhist writings of Thich Nhat Hahn, I find that DP/DR are the exact opposite of enlightenment. I have worked in DBT to "return from this dream" and ground myself in certain Buddhist practice. BEING IN THE MOMENT, BEING MINDFUL. BEING PRESENT. BEING IN THE REAL WORLD. NOT TRAPPED IN MY MIND, OR TRAPPED BY THE FEARS MY MIND GENERATES.

There used to be an old website called Trancenet that was around to help people who medidated themselves INTO DP and needed help getting out. I think this person has it figured more logically. DP/DR are not enlightenment. DP/DR are not "being in the moment." We can however use Buddhist techniques to "ground" ourselves as this individual does. I do some of the same things.

I do yoga and consciously count in my head why doing certain repetitions or holding a pose. The counting is the only way I can "empty my mind" of negative intrusive thoughts or worries. When I have felt horrible DP/DR I touch familiar fabrics ... so strange that person says that ... to "bring me down to earth" to feel a part of existence.

I still think people misunderstand DP/DR for being enlightenment. In my humble opinion, what I've read, what I've FELT, it is not. Also, it's interesting however, in Suzanne Segal's "Collision With The Infinite" -- she found comfort in interpreting her DP/DR as a spiritual journey/experience. Ultimately however, it did not give her much comfort.

I think the key is to see using "Core Mindfulness Skills" are helpful in reducing anxiety which subsequently reduce DP/DR. This along with proper sleep, diet, exercise, relaxation techniques, BRING US BACK. That is the simplicity of the Buddhism I follow. And I follow it in a very narrow way. (Dialectical Behavioral Therapy training). FInd "Wise Mind" if you're flipping out. Move from the far ends of being overly rational or overly emotional and move towards the "Grey" area which is the melding of both extremes.

This centers and calms.

I think this goes in the religious discussion section though. Oops.
I bookmarked that Blog.
Very interesting.
I have to find that Trancenet site. People recovering from "trying to lose themselves" -- and they do ... certainly if they are predisposed to doing so. The mind amazes me.
Cheers,
D


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2009)

Well, I can't find Trancenet now. I haven't seen it in years actually. But there can be a negative effect ... and I've experienced it myself of focusing INWARDS. My goals are not so much meditation but to allow negative thoughts "pass through" ... leaving the mind "empty" ...well it can never be empty or we'd be dead. :shock:

Anyway, I usually find what I find incorrect statements that DP/DR are what are the goals of the Buddhist, and so far this is not true. The words SEEM the same but aren't. For instance, living in the present, one does not stress -- worry about the future, worry about the past, but only the task at hand. DP/DR keep me from feeling that, being in the present. And I can't "force myself" to feel in the present, so I have to use techniques to calm the mind.

*"I long to accomplish a great and noble task, but it is my chief duty to accomplish small tasks as if they were great and noble. We have to learn to live happily in the present moment, touch the peace and joy that are available now."*

*Our mental being is not to "transcend" THIS WORLD, it is to be COMPLETELY A PART OF IT ... which DP/DR takes us from.* I can attest to that from a horrible experience this week where I prayed to God I wouldn't kill someone in my car as my DP/DR got so bad, a red light started to lose its meaning. I knew I wasn't supposed to feel that way, but that's how I felt, how everything looked. Nothing was familiar/recognizable on a street a few miles from my apartment. I had to find a parking lot to "collect myself." If I'd remained a mess for much longer (about an hour total) I would have phoned 9-1-1 and had an ambulance take me to a hospital -- no lying. I was at that time in my car "a danger to myself and to others."

Glad I slowly came back to the "normal DP" I have. And that was by repeating, "This is just a bad DP/DR episode caused by sleep deprivation, emotional stress, too much coffee, some confusion on the freeway (I got lost for a short distance), etc." I had to say. Red light means stop. Press brake. Bank is near store. Store is near parking lot. Stop car in parking lot. I feel bad for X reasons. This will pass. I was using "wise mind" ... in the past I would have become completely terrified, and I hate to think what might have happened.

And this was not a panic attack, I had no panic attack before this. This was a hideous "wave" of BAD DP/DR that came over me "out of the blue" ... unfortunately on a freeway off-ramp. (But I could figure WHY it happened, but had no control over it save to think as logically as possible.) The individual in the blog is trying to "get grounded" in the same way. As I call it, "Seek the familiar."

My GOD, the worst DP/DR I've had in 4 or 5 years. At this point I'll take the daily dose I have thank you.

Cheers,
D


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## Sleepwalker (Dec 4, 2008)

Glad you pulled through, Dreamer.  You're very resourseful


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

Thank you sleepwalker,

As far as I'm concerned, I have come a significant way in terms of talking myself down from a HORRIBLE wave. I'm actually proud of myself. If this had happened even 5 years ago, I would have been in bed for a week out of terror. Mind you, I did not drive my car for several days after this happened, but realized I'd have to get back into the stupid thing eventually. Was low on food stuffs and printer ink.

It is true, if you get socked in the head to TRY, little by little to find Earth again.

I'm still not a happy camper, but I am here.

Take Care, ALL of you.
Know your limits.
Know your strengths.
D


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## FoXS (Nov 4, 2009)

hello everyone, 
i think there is a grave difference between buddhism / meditation and DR/DP.

- the buddhists, monks and the meditating person WANTS to feel the extension of the consciuousness, the release of the self, the out-of-body-experience. they know what will happen, what the effect will be and how to deal with it. 
- WE are FORCED to feel this, we CAN NOT handle it and we DON'T want it to last!

so this is why we can not see an advantage in this condition.


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## berlake (Nov 16, 2009)

I just wanted to add (in case anyone is still interested in this subject!) that I think one needs to be careful when equating DP with spiritual practices or aspirations. My reason for saying this is born of personal experience and quite alot of research, but please accept that I'm obviously not "enlightened" or "Self-Realized"....

Buddhism in particular is liable to cause some problems when viewing DP in its philosophical context. Buddha seemed to teach the doctrine of "Anatman" or "Annatta" as a central principal in his Path. There seem to be many refernces to his assertion that everything is empty of inherent self-nature or essence, including "self". However, he is also quoted as stating that he was NOT teaching a doctrine of annihilation or nihilism, and that the goal of meditation was to reach the "Unconditioned" - or THAT about which nothing can be said.... Ultimately, then, even the Universal Self of the Advaita Vedanta is placed in a subordinate postion to the Ground of Being (I'm aware that Buddhism predates the Advaita Vedanta).

Now, it is easy to assume that DP resembles the process of detachment that the Buddha prescribed, and, indeed, it fits well with the Atma Vidya of Shankara - the process whereby one gradually dissociates oneself from all objects within his or her awareness, including one's thoughts and feeling and, eventually, body. BUT, what is maintained trhoughout this process is SELF CONSCIOUSNESS. So, one's awareness of one's self - or one's sense of Being - is never let go of (at least not until it is transcended - but that's way beyond Self, rather than being in opposition to it). And this would appear to me to indicate something almost the reverse of DP, as DP seems to accentuate awareness of the CONTENTS of one's consciousness, i.e., one's thoughts and one's external environment. The reason things seem so empty and meaningless with DP is because the external world IS empty and meningless wihtout a self present to give it meaning. It is precisely because one has somehow become alarmingly detached from one's actual self that life seems so barren and unreal - not to mention existentially empty. Psychotherapies which credit the self with some existence aim at re-establishing one's identity with this self after deconstructing the fragmented and failing construct which has been utilised to protect oneself from the slings and arrows of chilhood and adolescence. The re-identification of oneself as Oneself is a type of Self Realization, though the latter term should probably be reserved for Realization of onself as the Universal Self - as the inverse of the objective universe; the meaning, value, love and life which creatively projects the objects we've come to mistakenly identify with....

The primary reason I feel it is dangerous to confuse DP with any discipline which encourages "no self" is that it is my personal experience that a deep sense of guilt, pain, self-blame, self-hatred and judgement are at the heart of my DP symptoms, and it's all too easy to utilise these spiritual instructions and philosophies in a negative way AGAINST ONESELF, only serving to strengthen the feelings of unreality and awful, crushing nihilism. Detachment is described in some writings as being a joyous practice, as it involves liberating the self from its confines and its delusions. It usually involves valuing others as highly as oneself, if not more highly, as it is recognised that each person (indeed, each thing) shares the same Self.....

I hope that makes some sense and helps, perhaps, to disentangle the positive from the negative


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## DownTheRabbitHole (May 30, 2009)

great post dude, i understand, and i have now adapted some of my views. thanks


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## FoXS (Nov 4, 2009)

berlake said:


> So, one's awareness of one's self - or one's sense of Being - is never let go of (at least not until it is transcended - but that's way beyond Self, rather than being in opposition to it). And this would appear to me to indicate something almost the reverse of DP, as DP seems to accentuate awareness of the CONTENTS of one's consciousness


that is what I sad, isn't it?


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## berlake (Nov 16, 2009)

Apologies if I'm reiterating anything already posted. I'm not plagiarising, just writing out my understanding as concisely as I can (God knows I could go on....). If someone else has reached the same conclusion, then that's great news, because it means there's less likelihood that I'm crazy!


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## champignon (Nov 21, 2009)

Just a few thoughts from someone fairly new to both Buddhism and the _concept_ of dp/dr (not the experience/perception, which I've had for as long as I can remember). Nothing completely original, I'm sure...

To me, the Buddhist concept of awakening and dp/dr are not in opposition, but are not the same, either. There's not supposed to be a linear goal in Buddhism, but for lack of a better metaphor, it's kind of like, if you have dp/dr, you get to skip a grade or two or go to college early in Buddhism.

I was just part of a Zen reading group that read Eckhart Tolle's "The Power of Now," interpreting it from a Zen perspective. I found the book very annoying and frustrating, and finally a friend pointed out to me that of course I found it annoying---in large part, it is written to convince people who had never experienced dp/dr that the world and their selves as they think they know them are illusions/facades. This is old news to me because the only perspective I ever remember having is one of dp/dr, but I finally got it that people without dp/dr are really blown away and amazed by this and to them it seems like a huge breakthrough... if it occurs in some supportive spiritual context.

As mentioned above and many other places, I get that if you suddenly get thrown into this realization without wanting it, it can be terrifying and devastating. For this reason, I feel lucky that mild baseline dp/dr is all I've ever known. Though, I've always sensed I had a "weird" perspective on things and I've had many, many dp/dr spikes which left me afraid I was going crazy (and once got me involuntarily hospitalized).

That realization of the falseness of self and "reality" is just what it is, and it is a necessary step toward reaching an awakened state. If we interpret it as causing us to be _disconnected_ from "reality"---as a loss of something real---then we experience it as dp/dr *disorder* with all the foregrounding/believing our own mind chatter. Buddhism says that you can't lose something that is an illusion because it was never there in the first place. Discarding the illusion of self/other, light/dark, real/unreal, and all dualities is the way to experience a sense of utter connectedness with everything---awakening. However you perceive or experience the world, you are able to let it flow through you, without getting caught up in what is the "right, normal" way to see it because you know that every way of seeing it is incomplete and inaccurate. If it seems like everything is going flat and I'm losing depth perception, if it seems like layers of fake Halloween cobweb are getting stretched between me and everything else, that doesn't mean it is *really* happening any more than my dreams *really* happen---just something in the way my brain is processing sensory input is shifting. The experience is no more unreal than "normal reality," which is just another processing setting.

So, from a Buddhist perspective, the only reason someone experiences dp/dr perception of the world as a disorder/problem is because that person is clinging/attached to having some other perception of the world. If you let go of the idea that you *should* perceive things in a certain manner, you just experience things as you experience them in a given moment without judging---i.e. you become mindfully aware. The blog author wrote about mindful grounding of self in the present physical moment and sensations, which helps because it brings you back to experiencing without judgment.

Letting go of the having some specific perception of the world is no simple thing, and is known by lots of names.... ego death, shamanic initiation, hero's journey, etc. It always involves some image of enveloping darkness, burning, death, or dismemberment. This is because it is terrifying to let go of everything you think you know before you can see what will come next. It feels like choosing to plummet through an infinite void.

And now I think I realize that I just said exactly what *backagain* said above, in some different words. Oops.

Anyway, I guess the take home point is that even if you experience dp/dr perceptions before ever hearing a word about Buddhism, undertaking a study of Buddhist ideas (without about what certain words mean---Buddhist ideas are difficult to verbalize ever, and English does not have words for many of the ideas, so words with common meanings get used in different ways) and practicing meditation and mindfulness can be helpful in coming to peace with those perceptions, rather than clinging in an endless cycle of anxious rumination about them and desire to go back to seeing the world as you did before.

dp/dr does not equal awakening. You still have to do the practices of mindfulness, meditation, etc. and go through the experience of full ego death to come to a place of being present, calm, and compassionate rather than freaking out about it. I'm at the point now where I'm just as likely to feel calm about it as I am to freak out. I sat zazen for 40 minutes meditating through what I would have ordinarily experienced as a full-on panic attack, just reminding myself that the shaking, heart pounding, chest tightening, feeling choked, and ragged breath were body sensations and not symptoms warning me I was about to die. And I didn't die! I think that was the turning point for me in convincing myself that maybe the Buddhists were on to something...

But, like I said above, apparently some people try really hard all their lives to get their head around the idea that what they think is definite reality is not any definite reality at all. dp/dr puts you ahead of the curve in Buddhism in that sense, but usually it also means you bring a lot of other baggage/issues/problems to your practice that you need to burn through.

The other thing about the Buddhist idea of awakening or enlightenment that I think is often misunderstood, and that is unlike dp/dr perception, is that you do not become awakened and then stay that way. Every single moment we have the choice of whether or not to wake up. It's when someone chooses to wake up in every moment that they are said to "be" awakened.


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## champignon (Nov 21, 2009)

oops, originally double posted due to server blip


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2010)

.


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## tikobird (Feb 26, 2008)

Dreamer* said:


> Well, I can't find Trancenet now. I haven't seen it in years actually. But there can be a negative effect ... and I've experienced it myself of focusing INWARDS. My goals are not so much meditation but to allow negative thoughts "pass through" ... leaving the mind "empty" ...well it can never be empty or we'd be dead.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## tikobird (Feb 26, 2008)

Dreamer* said:


> Interesting Floating Tears. This is something I'm researching and writing a short article on. Started to do this on my blog and it's gotten to long.
> 
> At any rate: the link: http://thebuddhistblog.blogspot.com/200 ... ation.html
> 
> ...


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## tikobird (Feb 26, 2008)

Dreamer* said:


> Interesting Floating Tears. This is something I'm researching and writing a short article on. Started to do this on my blog and it's gotten to long.
> 
> At any rate: the link: http://thebuddhistblog.blogspot.com/200 ... ation.html
> 
> ...


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Buddhism is a method to open up to the world and to yourself to face it head on with all it's sufferings without contracting or running away. DP on the other hand is anxiety and stress based and anxiety/stress is all about one part of you trying to control or dominate another part, in other words it is ego based contraction to the world and to yourself. There are perhaps some drives similar between DP and Buddhism in that in both the person is trying to understand the world around them but with DP the person is trying to only use the analytical mind to do so, while Buddhism is about dropping or quieting the mind so you perceive the world more directly without the mind creating a filter between you and what you are perceiving.


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## Mushishi (May 31, 2010)

I've been able to live in the Now more so than I did before DP/DR. However, the whole disorder itself seems to have changed. Maybe it's the meds. Can't say for sure, though. I don't get stressed or anxious with my DP/DR. The only main thing that's bothering me now is light sensitivity and visual snow, and I still get the "fishbowl" effect. But, not as bad as it used to be.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2010)

Pablo said:


> Buddhism is a method to open up to the world and to yourself to face it head on with all it's sufferings without contracting or running away. DP on the other hand is anxiety and stress based and anxiety/stress is all about one part of you trying to control or dominate another part, in other words it is ego based contraction to the world and to yourself. There are perhaps some drives similar between DP and Buddhism in that in both the person is trying to understand the world around them but with DP the person is trying to only use the analytical mind to do so, while Buddhism is about dropping or quieting the mind so you perceive the world more directly without the mind creating a filter between you and what you are perceiving.


hey all... check this link out.... it mentions Buddhism and DP..

http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Becoming_a_Buddhist_by_Madawela_Punnaji

look under THE VALUE OF CALMNESS

and also the last box at the very end of the page... you wont be sorry!


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

ellatree said:


> hey all... check this link out.... it mentions Buddhism and DP..
> 
> http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Becoming_a_Buddhist_by_Madawela_Punnaji
> 
> ...


I think there is a big difference between depersonalization mentioned on that site and what people experience here. When a Buddhist experiences depersonalization their emotions and body are just as real as the world around them but they see their essential nature as impermanent and not self, whereas the people here live almost totally in their head which means that on some level they are rejecting their emotions and body. If we here really knew deep down our emotions and body were not self we wouldn't feel any need to reject them we could just observe them with mindfulness, so my advice is don't mistake DP as some sort of enlightened state, the ultimate truth is that you can't find a self but that doesn't mean we really understand that deep in our being because if we did we would completely relax and transcend suffering.


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## babybowrain (Aug 24, 2010)

I just wanted to add, years ago a little before dp/dr/around that time I used to meditate, and after meditation I would open my eyes and it would be sunset, and the colours looked so beautiful, I hardly experience that sort of thing anymore. Everything would feel extra nostalgic and kitchy and amazing and I'd feel love for everthing, although sometimes I'd feel intense anger or depression.


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## babybowrain (Aug 24, 2010)

Dreamer* said:


> Well, I can't find Trancenet now. I haven't seen it in years actually. But there can be a negative effect ... and I've experienced it myself of focusing INWARDS. My goals are not so much meditation but to allow negative thoughts "pass through" ... leaving the mind "empty" ...well it can never be empty or we'd be dead.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dreamer, is this it? trancenet.net


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