# Imaginary friend syndrome



## Guest

I've always seen the connection between kids being alone making up fantasies/imaginairy friends.
How come grown up's do the same? Do we feel lonely on Earth?
Ofcourse DP/DR is differnet it forces a delusional loneliness onto you, but what about normal grown ups, they drop santa claus, toothfairy, peterpan and superman, but have troubles losing God. Why is this


----------



## Pablo

Because God is the ultimate comfort blanket for those people who dont want to grow up and face the harsh realities of life


----------



## Guest

But I mean, reality is just as harsh.
I mean ur beliefs does nothing, reality dont give a shit.
People still die, get ill etc.
Isn't it time HELLO ITS YEAR 2007 for society to WAKEUP, get rational and work for the better of humanity not go backwards?
I don't mean this in any respectful way...

I understand the fantasy / wishful thinking that you'll see your loved ones again when you die etc. things happen for a reason bullshit gives comfort to people.
What I mean is like, fact is you will NEVER see them again, and 40-50% of the Earth eralize this and they are no worse off than those who think the opposite.
I think it's healthier to face reality, maybe then less wars etc.
It's easy to start a war and killing someone when you believe they'll live on in heaven or whatever.
I'm sick of the whining of terrorism, fuc kthat shit, ok so terrorist killed 3000 in US buhu, wtf Bush has sent tentimes that to die in Iraq over nothing...

I mean seriously, religion is the worst disease in this world ;\


----------



## CECIL

If society becomes even more rational then we'll end up destroying ourselves. Coincidentally, DP/Depression is a state where you favour the rational over the intuitional and get sick.

You, me and the rest of the world needs to find a balance between the two to be healthy.

Also, we don't need to face up to reality. We need to realise that we create our own realities and change it accordingly.


----------



## Guest

No and no, if the society becomes more rational (follow atheist principles) there will be no more wars.
Ofcourse there will still be fuckedup people but the whole world would change dramatically for the better FINALLY.
In 200 years religion will be like those who believed in witches etc before.
Yea we "create" our own reality, in our minds, but REALITY is never affected.
Don't say you buy into the Delusion of Attraction do you? 
I watched those two retarded funniest comedies called The Secret & What The Bleep Do We Know.
LOL, funny thing is that they were JUST disproven by a leading quantum physicst, our minds has ZERO SAP NADA effect on reality/world around us.
So yeah I say take responsibility for your own life but dont buy into LoA and believe u can fly. LOL

and no, God was created by man not the other way around and yes... it's still just a fairytale.
Your body DNA/genes knows this, deep down you do to. EVERYONE is born atheist, we have zero belief in God, as we grow up hearing fairytales like the God, santa claus, toothfairy etc. we become agnostic and confused, as we grow older, we lose santa claus toothfairy god and other fantasies, atleast we're meant to, those who do not become religious weak robots.

and no, your newagey cosmic consciousness bullshit religion is no better than the christian one, both has NOTHING to do with reality.

Consciousness is complexity of the 100 billion neurons in your brain firing off, fuck some of em up and you got serious problems.

I know I sound disrespectful, I understand this, but seriously if your above 14 it's time to start growing up and face reality, ecspecially if you want out of this disorder .


----------



## Pablo

Religion isnt the only cause of war, fear and egostism are the main causes of it so only by eradicating these two factors which are interlinked will war ever be reduced or eliminated. Atheism is all well and good and is more mature than unexamined culturally conditioned religious beliefs, but many people take it too far and start to build a world view upon it disconnecting you from certain truths and crucial information about us and the world around us which many spiritual traditions provide.

The way I see it is that 99% of the population are still living in a competitive survival state, very few people live in a state of love and compassion because their whole lives and their whole being is directed by family and social conditioning which often clashes with their "Self" and natural instincts so just about everybody is in a state of disintegration and at war with themselves with conflicting drives and desires, which means they live in fear and egotism.

Atheism doesn't provide an antidote to this problem, it does help to reduce negative religious conditioning but does nothing to help heal or integrate people which is what is required if we want to actually live a life not based around fear and survival. New age beliefs like "The Secret" dont help in this regard either because it ignores the "shadow" and is often just another mask for egotism, but certain spiritual traditions which embrace the whole of a person can help to heal us.


----------



## Guest

You sound like youve read too much "David Hawkins Level of consciousness" lol there is no levels of consciousness like guilt shame love peace bliss enlightenment. Lol

Humanism/Naturalism deals with this http://www.naturalism.org explains very well why we should be compassionate.
Most atheist are better people than christians... maybe because there is more christians and thats why it's easier to see the bad in those I dno.
Fact of the matter is:

"If your only moral because you fear judgement, we're a sad flock indeed" or whtever einstein said, true shit. and he was atheistic


----------



## Pablo

Copeful said:


> You sound like youve read too much "David Hawkins Level of consciousness" lol there is no levels of consciousness like guilt shame love peace bliss enlightenment. Lol


I dont know about enlightenment but surely it is obvious that some people live with more happyness, more love and more enjoyment then others? surely that is the most obvious thing in the world for people like us who have mental struggles.


----------



## Guest

Well your God you should know it Funny how ur stuck in a disease when your god, u suck What I always suspected, glad to finally be able to talk to you god, why dont u answer my prayer oh almight creator or reality?


----------



## Pablo

I dont know why you keep saying that I am god, I have never said that, I just want people to respect their subjective reality because I know not doing this causes DP.

But if by calling me God makes you feel better about not being able to argue without coming across as a complete moron then go ahead, just dont expect me to be bothered about about it.


----------



## Guest

How am I the moron here ? I got all the evidence u got nothing?

Listen, I GOT NOTHING AGAINST humans with religious beliefs, I got something against the RELIGIOUS BELIEF.
Same as I got NOTHING against crack/heroine addicts, but I got something against crack/heroine. get my drift?


----------



## Pablo

What evidence


----------



## Guest

For the world being natural, all evidence we got is that the world is antural and objective...

The burden of proof lies upon those who makes outrageous claims not on us


----------



## Pablo

I dont know who you are arguing with I dont believe in God and I never said I did but unlike you I dont put my complete faith in science to explain the world either. Im interested in health and psychogical integration, that is all I have been arguing for.


----------



## CECIL

Copeful said:


> No and no, if the society becomes more rational (follow atheist principles) there will be no more wars.


Bullshit. The more rational we become the more we deny our emotions and our empathy with fellow humans. That means we are more likely to fuck over our fellow humans to increase our material wealth. That means we are more likely to have wars.

Although I must concede that many wars are based on fear, which is an emotion, so in that case you may be right. However, what would be the point of living if we were all emotionless robots working as accountants? *Shudder*



> In 200 years religion will be like those who believed in witches etc before.


Those people are alive and well today, thanks for asking  Finally getting a chance to practice our arts without an angry mob putting a flame to us too.



> Yea we "create" our own reality, in our minds, but REALITY is never affected.


Yes it is. But seeing is not believing, believing is seeing. You have to believe it first before you will see proof. Since you have obviously shut yourself off to that proof, it won't come for you. But that's fine, because your reality is as valid as mine and if you don't want to change it, its your choice.



> Don't say you buy into the Delusion of Attraction do you?


Delusion of attraction? I'm guessing you mean the principles of harmonic resonance and "Like attracts like" since you mentioned The Secret. Yes I do partially agree with those principles, but they aren't the whole story.



> LOL, funny thing is that they were JUST disproven by a leading quantum physicst, our minds has ZERO SAP NADA effect on reality/world around us.


I don't see a link. Also, if quantum physics is learning anything, its that spiritual ideas are closer to the truth than we initially though. e.g. Holographic universe, all matter is connected.



> and no, God was created by man not the other way around


Its actually both simultaneously 



> and no, your newagey cosmic consciousness bullshit religion is no better than the christian one, both has NOTHING to do with reality.


ORLY? So how come I can intentionally shape my reality from day to day?



> I know I sound disrespectful, I understand this, but seriously if your above 14 it's time to start growing up and face reality, ecspecially if you want out of this disorder .


Got news for you buddy. Ever since I was 14 I've been investigating both sides of this argument. As a hint, one side only led to more pain and greater disconnection from the universe. The other led to love, peace and understanding. Guess which was which


----------



## Guest

Trust me you do not create ur reality, ur perception and faith of it yes. Reality remains intact, if u chose to focus on only red things ull NOTICE more red things, and NOOOOOOO news for you it was not Delusion of Attraction no such fuckin retarded thing exist.

Yes facing reality can be harsh cause death is involved and ur imaginary friends must go bye bye but instead u got real people nature and everything u can love...

Uve gone delusional


----------



## Guest

.


----------



## Guest

Copeful, if no one can influence reality, why do you keep trying to influence ours...?


----------



## Guest

ITS NOT CHANGING REALITY IN ANY SENSE, OK YES i can move my body, communicate my opinions THROUGH PHYSICAL ACTIONS.
"yours" u claim a reality? selfish egomeganomaliac god wannabes stfu n grow up.


----------



## Guest

Copeful why don't you just f*ck off and let the door hit you on the way out "bint!" :wink: :lol:


----------



## CECIL

Copeful said:


> ITS NOT CHANGING REALITY IN ANY SENSE, OK YES i can move my body, communicate my opinions THROUGH PHYSICAL ACTIONS.
> "yours" u claim a reality? selfish egomeganomaliac god wannabes stfu n grow up.


Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

I used to work in a shitty fast food job. I believed that that was all I was worth. But when I changed that belief, my reality changed. I started to believe I was worth more than that, so I quit that job. Then I became unemployed for ~6 months. During that time I was still changing those belief patterns about myself. After a while, I decided to create a job for myself, so I projected intent out into the universe and I found the job I am currently in (Youth Work), which is teaching me a lot about myself and giving me a lot of useful skills that I can use in the future.

Now you may argue that all of this was merely chance and physical occurences. However, no matter how you argue, my reality changed from that point to this point. Back then I was worthless and barely deserved a fast food job. Now my reality is that I have worth and deserve to be moving forward with my life and learning new things. See how my reality changed?

Back 10 years ago I believed that drugs were evil and would only ever lead people to self destruction. Then my beliefs changed and I eventually tried drugs. Now I realise that while they can lead to self destruction if abused, their use can also have positive effects on people. See how my reality changed again? Drugs went from being an "evil" force to being tools for self exploration.

One "symptom" of DP is that you tend to view the world in very black and white. It sounds to me as though you are still stuck in that dichotomy. "Reality can only either be objective or subjective! God can either be real or not real! I can only be my own seperate entity or connected with everyone else!". That's black and white thinking. The truth is those dichotomies don't exist and in fact both sides can be true simultaneously.

Similarly, our individual and unique realities can be both individual to us as well as shared/co-created by the rest of humanity. It doesn't have to be either/or. That's why people can change their beliefs, which results in their reality changing, which results in changes occuring in their life.

And this is important: Every single person has different beliefs, but ever single person's beliefs are true. That means every single person's reality is valid but different from the next. Now if you think in black and white, that can't possibly be true, there has to be some external objective reality and some people are just wrong. But no-one is wrong, everyone's beliefs are true for them and everyone's reality is valid for them. But everyone has the potential to change their reality if they want to, including you


----------



## Guest

.


----------



## CECIL

lol thanks. I'm ok with words but I can tell you know what you're talking about and I fully agree


----------



## Guest

LOL thanks :lol:


----------



## Makuren

Great work guys, CECIL your explaination moved me entirely. Especially with "Every single person has different beliefs, but ever single person's beliefs are true." I had to reread it to grasp its meaning and it does ring true in this world. Human beings have many beliefs and each belief is true in certain contexts. Some beliefs can also be compared and integrated with others. A universal truth is: "There is no such thing as right and wrong" explains this. There is not a single belief that is "wrong" and there is no single belief that is "right". It all depends on how the person internalizes it and defines it for themselves. That is why everyone has a large variety of beliefs often conflicting with others. For them those beliefs are right while others are wrong. It's the belief that there is a "right" and there is a "wrong" that makes us think and act that way.

Copeful,

Science is a belief system all it's own that is HIGHLY ACCEPTED BY SOCIETY. It is the reason why it is as prevelent as religion. Hell, I could even say that it can be a religion in of itself. Thousands of people follow its procedures, and rules religiously in hopes for answers. Religion does the same thing, they take the procedures and rules in hopes for answers. I'm a university undergraduate and I can say for a fact that science can only go so far, just like religion. It is far too narrow for it to take the full picture. It is like science is a flashlight that can only light up a portion of the huge room that is life. To think objectively all the time and control for confounds and other variables will make the scientist able to make predictions in his or her study to interpret the results however it sacrificed external validity. External validty means that the study can be generalized to the population under study. There are flaws in science as there are flaws in religion. So always keep a critical mind when looking at scientific studies and "evidence". Research findings are not "law". If one researcher proves that a theory is wrong you should not accept it as fact but question it. Stand back and ask "Whoa wait a minute, They need to duplicate the study to see if they get similar results." Theories try to explain and prodict behavior and concequences. ALL THEORIES HAVE FLAWS and many of them are often removed and replaced. Even findings that were influencial for decades can be thrown out and seen as a load of garbage when more research is done and new findings come to light by using different procedures under different scenarios. Hell Freud's psychoanalytic and psychosexual approaches were dominate in the western culture for decades and now they're a bunch of balony.

My point here is to keep an open mind when it comes to challanging beliefs and that the belief in science is as flawed as religion and other controversial theories out there such as the law of attraction. (The law of attraction is also existant in my reality and in many others because we have let it in to our belief systems with an open mind and tested it out for ourselves. For example: I had non stop worry and anxiety and I always dreaded on these thoughts. All I recieved even when going through therapy was the same symtoms over and over. Without knowing it at the time that law of attraction existed it still had an impact on my life. It gave me what I was putting out. Now I've changed significantly and I am improving! This is another example about why beliefs are true, all beliefs are true under certain cercumstances and contexts even if they are NOT in your awareness.)

Well this is my 2 cents guys.


----------



## Pablo

Im very unsure about the law of attraction and "The Secret", sure it makes sense that you attract a certain energy to you so if you are angry you attract angry situations and people, similarly if you are loving you attract love, but how to get in the postive states is the tricky part and I dont think this has a huge amount to do with simply making yourself think postive happy thoughts all the time and only focusing on the postive using your will power. 
I think that a more balanced view is far more healthy than simply concentrating on the things you want to attract because both the laws of physics and taoism says that there is an equal opposite reaction to what you do, so in psychological terms if you guide your life by "The Secret" you will create a huge amount of "shadow" in your life which you wont be conscious of, so guiding your life by these sorts of new age ideas can actually lead to more repression and less consciousness, which is the opposite of where people want to go and is just an extension of the sort of neurotic thought which keeps us in misery.


----------



## Guest

.


----------



## Guest

.


----------



## CECIL

Yep you've got it Makuren  Its a bit hard to get your "head" around, or rather get your head out of the way, but it relieves a lot of the pressure when you can see how it works. Suddenly its ok to not believe the same thing as the next guy. And anyone telling you that you are stupid for believing something just gets the volume turned down big time, because "That's your belief and that's fine, but I am entitlied to my own beliefs as well and they are both right".

Pablo I think you are right about The Secret. On one hand concentrating on something positive is basically an act of intent, so if you put enough intent out into the world you will achieve your result. But what you said about the Shadow is also true. Without first removing all of your "negative" intents, or more to the point still living in the positive/negative duality, you repress your energy more.

Those "negative" intents or beliefs about yourself will act oppositely to your positive goals. So basically you'll have to pour so much energy into creating what you want and then maintain that energy drain just so it doesn't fall apart again right before your eyes. That's something that no-one can keep up for long. In other words, The Secret I think sort of sets people up for failure. Its on the right track and its great to see mainstream society starting to believe in this stuff, but its not the whole story.

The idea behind creating Shamanically is to retrieve all of those old intents and beliefs that are holding you back and dragging you down and then use the retrieved energy in the most efficient way to set your intent and create what you want using the least amount of energy possible. Its both fun and tricky, hehe.


----------



## Pablo

Im still struggling with the concept of what shamanic Intent actualy is, it troubles me a lot because it gets talked about a lot in my teachings and readings and seems to be almost the most important aspect of the whole teachings and I cant seem to properly grasp it :? 
It has to be different from normal intention and will power but when I try to apply what I consider as intent into my practice it seems to stress me out so it cant be right, I guess I will get it the more I get into the teachings but it worries me that I am missing such a crucial aspect and I am wasting my time without it. i suppose it is something I am going to have to work out for myself though.


----------



## CECIL

What's your current understanding of intent Pablo? Its both a simple and complex topic and I'm not sure I can explain it very well :roll:

The most simple explanation I can give is that it is an energy that you project out into the world in order to accomplish a certain goal.

These articles might give you some more ideas about it, though a lot of what I've learned came from the classes themselves.

http://shamanscave.com/articles/percept ... t_and_will

http://shamanscave.com/articles/percept ... _of_intent

P.S. Thanks for starting this thread Copeful, it lead to some meaningful conversation afterall


----------



## Pablo

I guess my understanding of intent is just wanting something to happen or willing something to happen so a change is made, but those articles do make things a little clearer thanks. 
I think the problem is that I was confusing intent with a sort of mental imagining or willing a bit like visualisation, perhaps using my rational mind too much without a body connection to the energy of intent itself. I guess the issue I have is that at some level I have a lot of competing and conflicting intents all at war with each other which is why I am so confused and stressed and I need to let go of as many of those as possible like untangling a ball of string so I just have one definate pure intent which I can use for what I want rather than spending all my energy in conflict with myself. But it is something that I should actualy experience and do rather than just think about before I can really say that I know what I am talking about.


----------



## Pollyanna 3098

Pablo said:


> I guess the issue I have is that at some level I have a lot of competing and conflicting intents all at war with each other which is why I am so confused and stressed and I need to let go of as many of those as possible like untangling a ball of string so I just have one definate pure intent which I can use for what I want rather than spending all my energy in conflict with myself.


WOW, What you have said here really made me sit up and think Pablo, it is exactly what my problem is. I look around at all of the paintings and drawings I have done and I can see the conflict as plain as day.
Thank you Pablo, your post was somewhat of a revelation to me.


----------



## CECIL

Visualisation is a valid way of setting intent. And yes I can really relate to what you are saying about conflicting intents and the ball of string. That's the whole idea of the recap - that you slowly unravel that ball of string and reclaim all of your energy. Then, like you say, you can focus all of your energy into one, single intent that's very powerful.

Don't worry, I don't really know what I'm talking about either, though I have a small amount of experience with this - mostly just passing on second hand information


----------



## christodenisto2

Hello all,

My immediate reaction upon reading this thread is to take a deep breath, and try to think hard about what to say.

Cecil and Spirit, you both seem to be so sure of yourself. You both seem to be convinced that we are all connected, that the law of attraction exists, that 'believing is seeing', that we can shape our reality through intent, that truth is subjective. Spirit, you have written that it is "perfectly obvious" that we create our reality with our mind. Cecil, you have written that "if you put enough intent out into the world you will achieve your result"

But I think anyone that is truly honest with themselves about the nature of the world and of the nature of suffering is not so easily comforted by sweeping and unprovable mystical ideas such as these.

My mum developed breast cancer earlier this year. She is a naturally optimistic person, is usually cheery, never dwells on the negative, rarely if ever contemplates negative thoughts, is giving and supportive. 
And yet she developed breast cancer and could have died because of it.
Anyone who says my mum 'attracted' her cancer by putting out a negative intent, or having a negative 'vibration', has frankly never met my mother, and is being worse than ignorant - they are being closed minded. They are investing in an unprovable, feel-good belief, 'we create our reality through intent' , without subjecting it to critical analysis and reflection.

Critical analysis reveals that some people with massive intent do NOT achieve what they intend in life. I just heard on the radio of a young Australian man yesterday who died of skin cancer, despite the fact that he unwaveringly believed that he would make it through, right up until the moment of his death.

This is the reality. I didn't choose it. It is not just my subjective reality. 
It is fact that many of us find ourselves in a reality we cannot completely control. This is often DESPITE our subconscious beliefs, despite our thinking, despite our actions.

I agree that if we focus on the positive, we are more likely to perceive things as positive, are more likely to act positively and we will therefore more likely achieve what we intend to achive. But I don't resort to mystical beliefs (like we shape objective reality with our mind) in order to explain that. Cecil, I read your thread about how your change in thinking eventually changed the realities of your life. But you needn't use the law of attraction to explain this - just basic psychology.

Spirit, you have written that it is perfectly obvious that you create your reality with your mind. It don't see it as obvious. I don't see it as obvious at all that six million jews died in the holocaust because they created their reality through their mind. That is the logical extension of law of attraction thinking, and the problem here is that that leads to blaming victims for their suffering, rather than understanding how tenuous a claim we ALL have to life and health.

The other point I wish to make is about Cecil's comment that "every single person's belief is true". IE that truth is completely subjective. It doesn't take a 10 year old child to realise that this is simply false. Some people (is the Iranian president one of them ?) have claimed that the holocaust never happened. I have personally been to the gas chambers at Auschwitz. I cannot be 100% certain of anything, but I can be close enough to certain that the holocaust did happen, that holocaust deniers are simply wrong, and that objective facts DO exist, REGARDLESS of whether everyone subjectively beliefs them or not.

The thing that I noticed in this thread is that everyone lambasted Copeful for being narrow minded and immature - I agree that Copeful is very narrow minded about the spiritual realm and a little aggressive - yet some of you seem to be EQUALLY narrow-minded in your unwillingness to contemplate ideas other than your own.

The reason there is a thread like this is that the facts of the universe are very difficult to tease out, there do seem to be nuances, contradictions and things we can't rationally explain, and rejecting the comments of people like Copeful is failing to realise that.

by the way, Emulated Puppeteer told Copeful to "f*ck off", and he should be ashamed of himself for making such a statement.

OK,

Christodenisto

.


----------



## Guest

EXACTLY.

Its clear you shape your "life view" with your mind.
You have a subjective experience of OBJECTIVE NON CHANGING REALITY.
Those who buy into law of attraction; WHY FOR THE LOVE OF MOTHERFUCKING CHRIST ISNT THE EARTH FLAT?

EVERYONE, I MEAN _E_V_E_R_Y_ human back in the ay believed this, yet investigation (objective reality) showed it self.
AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN!

Im all for positive thinking, but dont be so positive you'll be stupid enough to ignore the negative and nto eal with it.
Theres already cancer patients who has died from watching The secret and qutiting chemotherapy


----------



## CECIL

christodenisto2 said:


> My mum developed breast cancer earlier this year. She is a naturally optimistic person, is usually cheery, never dwells on the negative, rarely if ever contemplates negative thoughts, is giving and supportive.
> And yet she developed breast cancer and could have died because of it.
> Anyone who says my mum 'attracted' her cancer by putting out a negative intent, or having a negative 'vibration', has frankly never met my mother, and is being worse than ignorant - they are being closed minded. They are investing in an unprovable, feel-good belief, 'we create our reality through intent' , without subjecting it to critical analysis and reflection.


I'm sorry to hear about your mother's suffering, but glad to hear that she is doing well now. You sort of misunderstood what I was saying. You are definately free to dismiss what I am saying if you choose to. Your mother didn't attract cancer to her because she had a negative intent or a negative vibration.

From a Spiritual perspective, no "illness" or dis-ease is a negative thing - they all have personal meaning to us and we create them on a subconscious level in order to bring change about in our life. Even if we die from it, we learned something on some level (But of course you have to believe that death is not an end for this to make sense). The idea behind Breast Cancer is that it can mean different things depending on the details. I can't speak for your mother because I have never met her, but the two ideas are as follows:

Left Breast - Feminine, intuitional side. Cancer in this breast may have to do with the woman's unfulfilment of her feminine side. e.g. In women who do not have children but secretly yearn to.

Right Breast - Masculine, rational side. Cancer in this breast may have to do with a woman not fulfilling her desire to have a career and achieve outside of a woman's stereotypical gender role (i.e. staying at home and raising a family).

I'm no expert by any means but those are two ideas about Breast Cancer. Does any of that feel relevant for your mother? Did your mother make any changes in her life as a result of the cancer? You don't have to answer if you don't want to.



> Critical analysis reveals that some people with massive intent do NOT achieve what they intend in life. I just heard on the radio of a young Australian man yesterday who died of skin cancer, despite the fact that he unwaveringly believed that he would make it through, right up until the moment of his death.


This is true. Sometimes the reason we develop a disease is to die from it. Everyone has to die somehow, its a fact of life. However, my belief is that even through death we learn and our energy changes. It is also possible that the young man didn't REALLY believe he'd make it. Perhaps he was putting on a brave face and denying the fact he was dying. Noone will ever know now. This is one problem with our society at the moment. People deny things and put on a brave face and we are taught to take that at face value, but that may not have been the case. Of course, perhaps he did believe he would live but his subconscious intent to die was stronger, I don't know.



> I agree that if we focus on the positive, we are more likely to perceive things as positive, are more likely to act positively and we will therefore more likely achieve what we intend to achive. But I don't resort to mystical beliefs (like we shape objective reality with our mind) in order to explain that. Cecil, I read your thread about how your change in thinking eventually changed the realities of your life. But you needn't use the law of attraction to explain this - just basic psychology.


True, though its all interlinked and I also skimmed over a lot of the details and experiences which were spiritual in nature. A lot of my early changes actually came about because of reading Carl Jung, a psychologist 



> Spirit, you have written that it is perfectly obvious that you create your reality with your mind. It don't see it as obvious. I don't see it as obvious at all that six million jews died in the holocaust because they created their reality through their mind. That is the logical extension of law of attraction thinking, and the problem here is that that leads to blaming victims for their suffering, rather than understanding how tenuous a claim we ALL have to life and health.


And we've Godwined the thread  The idea of "Victims" and "Blame" are the first things that go out the window when you embrace a spiritual perspective. The belief here is that everyone creates their reality and for a reason. Now, I don't know exactly why those people chose to experience that, but there was a reason and on some level they created it for themselves. The idea behind creating your reality is that you take responsibility (not blame) for your creations and learn from anything that you create that you don't like.



> The other point I wish to make is about Cecil's comment that "every single person's belief is true". IE that truth is completely subjective. It doesn't take a 10 year old child to realise that this is simply false. Some people (is the Iranian president one of them ?) have claimed that the holocaust never happened. I have personally been to the gas chambers at Auschwitz. I cannot be 100% certain of anything, but I can be close enough to certain that the holocaust did happen, that holocaust deniers are simply wrong, and that objective facts DO exist, REGARDLESS of whether everyone subjectively beliefs them or not.


Its an interesting example. Again, perhaps the Iranian president is simply in denial? Its possible. But consider another example - people who live in the African Rainforest and have never met anyone outside their own tribe KNOW with 100% certainty that their Rain God provides rain for the trees to grow. Yet we know with 100% certainty that the heat from the sun causes water to evaporate, rise into the air, cool and then fall as rain. Which is true?

People take different views on the same occurrences. I'm 100% sure you could find some Nazi sympathisers out there right now that think Hitler was completely justified in his actions. To those people that is their reality. To a Holocaust denier, for whatever reason (I don't know), their reality is that there never was a Holocaust. I don't know enough about the reason behind that belief to understand it, but I'd wager that denial plays a part.



> The reason there is a thread like this is that the facts of the universe are very difficult to tease out, there do seem to be nuances, contradictions and things we can't rationally explain, and rejecting the comments of people like Copeful is failing to realise that.


I don't reject his ideas - they are valid for him and yours are for you. I don't have all the answers nor will I ever. I may look back at my posts in 5 years and think I was an idiot. People change, ideas and beliefs change. Its all a learning process 



> by the way, Emulated Puppeteer told Copeful to "f*ck off", and he should be ashamed of himself for making such a statement.


Likewise, Copeful constantly tells us that we are psychotic and that we shouldn't be coming here. It doesn't bother me at all, honestly, but it is quite disrespectful.

Thanks for the conversation


----------



## Guest

.


----------



## Guest

My only observation, and I didn't read this entire thread, but Copeful, why are you so darned angry? You're angry at everything and everybody.
Curious.

Also, religion has been around since the dawn of man, all over the world.

Live and let live.
Sigh.


----------

