# Jung's letter on depression



## Rozanne

Jung's Letter on Depression

Dear N.,

I am sorry you are so miserable. "Depression'" means literally "being forced downwards." This can happen even when you don't consciously have any feeling at all of being "on top"! So I wouldn't dismiss this hypothesis out of hand.

If I had to live in a foreign country, I would seek out one or two people who seemed amiable and would make myself useful to them, so that libido came to me from outside, even though in a somewhat primitive form, say of a dog wagging its tail.

I would raise animals and plants and find joy in their thriving. I would surround myself with beauty - no matter how primitive and artless - objects, colours, sounds. I would eat and drink well.

When the darkness grows denser, I would penetrate to its very core and ground, and would not rest until amid the pain a light appeared to me, for in excessu affectus [in an excess of affect or passion] Nature reverses herself.

I would turn in rage against myself and with the heat of my rage I would melt my lead. I would renounce everything and engage in the lowest activities should my depression drive me to violence. I would wrestle with the dark angel until he dislocated my hip. For he is also the light and the blue sky which he withholds from me.

Anyway that is what I would do. What others would do is another question, which I cannot answer. But for you too there is an instinct either to back out of it or to go down to the depths. But no half-measures or half-heartedness.

A letter by C. G. Jung written on 9 March 1959, C.G. Jung, Letters, p. 492-493

Taken from: http://www.bemyastrologer.com/jungs_let ... ssion.html


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## brandon is not taken

Angel_Ariel said:


> If I had to live in a foreign country, I would seek out one or two people who seemed amiable and would make myself useful to them, so that libido came to me from outside, even though in a somewhat primitive form, say of a dog wagging its tail.


Excuse me if I am wrong, but did jung just say....

"I will find two nice people to serve, so my sexual desires would be a dog wagging its tail"

??? wtf is he talking about???


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## LOSTONE

> I would seek out one or two people who seemed amiable and would make myself useful to them, so that libido came to me from outside, even though in a somewhat primitive form, say of a dog wagging its tail.


That sounds pretty messed up.

I don't understand this letter.



> I would renounce everything and engage in the lowest activities should my depression drive me to violence. I would wrestle with the dark angel until he dislocated my hip. For he is also the light and the blue sky which he withholds from me.


It looks like he took that "dislocated my hip" thing from an old bible account and applied it to depression. I say that because he said "dark angel", in the bible account the angel was actually a good angel, a servant of God.

How is depression the light and the blue sky?

And why does he say he would renounce everything and engage in the lowest activities???????

That sounds totally backwards!!

I am confused. :?


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## Pablo

Angel_Ariel said:


> If I had to live in a foreign country, I would seek out one or two people who seemed amiable and would make myself useful to them, so that libido came to me from outside, even though in a somewhat primitive form, say of a dog wagging its tail.


I think when he is talking about libido I think he is talking about the source of energy or passion for life not simply sexual libido, so he is saying when you fall into depression find a source of usefulness and connection outside of yourself to keep a connection to reality no matter how primative that connection might be.



> When the darkness grows denser, I would penetrate to its very core and ground, and would not rest until amid the pain a light appeared to me, for in excessu affectus [in an excess of affect or passion] Nature reverses herself.
> 
> I would turn in rage against myself and with the heat of my rage I would melt my lead. I would renounce everything and engage in the lowest activities should my depression drive me to violence. I would wrestle with the dark angel until he dislocated my hip. For he is also the light and the blue sky which he withholds from me.


I think he is talking about embracing the depression and not resisting it (which I think is good spiritual advice) he is talking about facing his demons and staring his fears straight in the face. "melt my lead" is an alchemical term used to describe the dissolution of psychologcal barriers to embrace the depression full on so that its energy can be assimilated into a healthier more whole psyche once it has passed.

He says the dark angel is also the light and the blue sky because the dark angel is part of his consciousness so if he can wrestle with it and conquer it rather than run away its energy will be assimilated into his mind once the depression has passed so he will come out of it healther than when he went in. So depression can be the light and the blue sky because it is an opportunity for growth and an opporttunity to become more whole, but only if you go to its depths will you grow, half measures wont work.

Thats my understanding anyway. Interesting letter though


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## brandon is not taken

"Libido in its common usage means sexual desire; however, more technical definitions, such as those found in the work of Carl Jung, are more general, referring to libido as the free creative?or psychic?energy an individual has to put toward personal development, or individuation."

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libido

Ok, now it makes a little bit more sence.... I still dont get it though.


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## LOSTONE

Pablo I think you have a good idea of what he was talking about.

It just sounds messed up if you don't really have a good idea of what he means.

Your explanation makes sense and it makes it sound much better to me now.

LOL.

Sometimes things just get taken the wrong way.


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## Pollyanna 3098

I think it is an inspiring letter. I don't think I will try to break it down, I will just take from it the feeling it gave me.

3098


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## Rozanne

Lol, I didn't expect the letter to create such a foroar, but yeah, it has some nooks and crannies.

The most surprising bit, to be honest was about the rage turned in. It seemed strange because people often say that "depression is anger turned in". I've been questioning this a lot lately cos I wanted to ascertain if that really was the common emotional cause of depression.


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## severed

Did Jung ever suffer from depression? I have been depressed, and I can tell you that at that point in time I could barely get myself to do mundane daily activities, let alone do things for other people. There was no passion during that time, no anger, no frustration, no energy or drive to make emotions. Just complete darkness.


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## Rozanne

He was all for self-knowledge, empowerment and finding personal meaning in life. Therefore his writings could appear trite to many. But in theory, his advice is built on a solid understanding of the mind.


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## Cam

Some of Jung's theories were questionable at best, but I agree with his advice in this case. He didnt say it would be easy :wink:

BB


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## Rozanne

Yeah...I can see why Jung's theories would be rejected by the mainstream, frankly what he suggests is way beyond what is considered normal. But slowly I've been taken over to his attitude. At the very least I think his purpose was sincere, which was to find a spiritual meaning for man's existance. That is a totally different kind of psychology, really.


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## Rozanne

Angel_Ariel said:


> If I had to live in a foreign country, I would seek out one or two people who seemed amiable and would make myself useful to them, so that libido came to me from outside, even though in a somewhat primitive form, say of a dog wagging its tail.


I think his emphasis is on service rather than taking responsibility. I'm sorry...not meaning to be argumentative at all, just reading over again.


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## Cam

I have to admit Jung's theory of synchronicity grabbed my attention, I have read a lot of his writings and found them interesting, but synchronicity, I definitely found the most interesting.


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## AllmindnoBrain

I find a lot of carl jungs work very fascinating, this excerpt definitely confused me a bit also. I agree with what pablo was saying, but to add to it is he saying in some way you have two ways to defeat the depression, either take it head on and let it swallow you whole and almost exaggerate the feeling and succumb to its power and maybe that will snap you out of it because it will become so extreme or something. Or you can ignore it and be extremely positive, indulge yourself in lifes joys and try to focus on other people and hope that the depression will then be replaced/reversed. I say this because these were two ways i approached depression, sometimes i was very positive or sometimes i just gave in and allowed myself to dissapear into darkness, i dont know though. It says the depression is withholding the light and the blue sky not that it is it.


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## Rozanne

Hi...
It's interesting you interpreted the dark angel as the depression itself. I had been wondering what he meant by this dark angel. I assumed it meant some sort of mental block, or anxiety which brings the depression. But it does make more sense to interpret the dark angel as the depression itself I guess.


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## nicon

Pretty sure somewhere I heard that Jung did suffer depression for a period, along with Psychosis for a period.

Thinking back to my depression. It was tied up with Narcissm. I wanted to be perfect in all ways for admiration etc, but my perception was that I was no good at all. Extreems again black/white good/bad.

Trying to stop judging things that way.

saw this:

It says the depression is withholding the light and the blue sky not that it is it.

that spoke to me that its all perception, formed through life experience, a way of learning to interpret how life should be, and what it actually is.


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## Rozanne

nicon said:


> Thinking back to my depression. It was tied up with Narcissm. I wanted to be perfect in all ways for admiration etc, but my perception was that I was no good at all.
> 
> Trying to stop judging things that way.


Hi Nicon,
It helps to see a glimmer of light in ordinary interactions. Lately the thing which has spured me on the most is looking in books or listening to people's words and really seeing there are other people who have feelings thoughts and struggles just the same as I do. Before, wanting to meet expectations divided me from people, not realising that there could be people out there who cared more about how I felt in my soul, than whether I "met up" to their standards. 
R


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## nicon

Hi again



> Lately the thing which has spured me on the most is looking in books or listening to people's words and really seeing there are other people who have feelings thoughts and struggles just the same as I do


Yea this is so true, I would say for everyone.

I can say through lots of therapy and self help that I rarely suffer anxiety, and very very little DP. my life however still has troubles, worries and sadness. It also has joy, happyness, and humor.

I remeber some of the things that I used to think about as a kid

"ok if I could get better grades this year, and my Nan was cured of deafness, and I was more handsome, and slim, and got everyone to like me then I would feel good, I would feel complete"

its a delusion, really is

I think its great that you have come to that conclusion Angel, it is progress for your mental health and something to be proud of.

I dont think it can ever be your fault that you have tryed so hard to please people and meet up to their expectations.

I think, and please correct me if I am wrong that you may have tried to do this because you feared rejection, and thought that being the perfect person would eternaly prevent rejection.

I know that my fear of rejection came from young experiences from adults, and over time I have found that to be a delusion too.

also:



> Before, wanting to meet expectations divided me from people


that rings true, being closer to people includes them seeing your faults and hang ups, along with your talents, your positives, and you seeing theirs.

Also I would add that the way you treat yourself, is often the way you, unwittingly treat others - if you feel I am not good, and to be good I need to be perfect, then you will feel the same about others, and that stops bonds, conections etc fomring - those bonds I beleive are good for our mental health.

The realisations you have had, I beleive, over time are going to start improving your mental health.

thanks
Nicon


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## Rozanne

Thanks Nicon...
To be honest I just know this is the golden rule. It's funny because one of my favorite things was to think I was treating people right all the time etc etc. I mean, it's only when I realised how hurtful it was that I had negative expactations of others that something started to click. I realised that by expecting others to judge me superficially I was sort of insulting their evolution and ability to love, their insight. I'm sure there are people who do judge on superficials, but I believe underneath is an innate understanding that these things don't create self-worth. I feel much better, and am probably starting to treat people with a real compassion...and more confidence, than before, but relationships are always going to be hard for me in the real world because of my succeptibility towards self-rejection when I'm not good enough for others.
But I'm starting to learn to look less at people rejecting me, or parts of me. Even if they do, just accept it as an aversion, and remember that God accepts me whole, probably doesn't even see me as a bundle of flaws and human inadequacies, but a spirit or soul, inhabiting a limited body which has numerous scars.


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## AllmindnoBrain

nicon said:


> Also I would add that the way you treat yourself, is often the way you, unwittingly treat others - if you feel I am not good, and to be good I need to be perfect, then you will feel the same about others, and that stops bonds, conections etc fomring - those bonds I beleive are good for our mental health.
> 
> Nicon


I recently realized i am this way, i put very high expectations on myself and am very hard on myself, i was this exact way with my ex-girlfriend, always analyzing her and pointing out flaws and expected perfection from her which wasnt fair to her, I would like to add she was a crazy bitch though.


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## Pollyanna 3098

> I would like to add she was a crazy bitch though.


LOL :lol:


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## CECIL

I loved this letter when I first read it a few years ago 

Jung's ideas are all about embracing the "shadow". In this case, the metaphor of the dark angel is used. Jung definately had issues of his own (why else do people study psychology?). He wrote about a dream he once had where he was drowning. His therapist appeared in the dream and kicked him under the water, yelling to him "Through, not out!".

In other words, most people get into emotional trouble and we all assume that the only way is OUT. To run away, to not feel that way anymore. But if you do that, you just suppress whatever it is you are hiding from and it gets bigger. It stalks you through every waking moment.

Instead, Jung's idea is to dive right into that water, or face the Dark Angel head on. To go into it completely and find out what's actually buried down there. The actual pain we experience when we do this is much less that we thought. That's because most of what we expect to feel is due to fear. The actual event is much smaller and insignificant compared to the fear we've built up around it.

So, face the Dark Angel and release that energy, like Pablo said. Then you realise that the Dark Angel was actually the love, light and "blue sky" that you couldn't see before. Because if you suppress your negative emotions, you suppress ALL your emotions.

When you choose to learn and grow from each experience, embracing the pain and taking it in stride, you become a more whole person. Rather than recoiling in fear and not living your life, you can live life to the fullest at each and every moment.


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## Guest

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## hotrille

Yeah, I really like this letter, about finding a passion to go on (i.e. serving other people, being a help to them) or just seeking help or amiability (like a dog wagging it's tail for affection)... Eat and drink well... Yeah, finding pleasures, I mean why not, you're depressed anyway so why not go and have a million cheeseburgers. lol. (I'm not promoting cheeseburgers in any way or form, by the way.) Anyway, depression is so multi-faceted so I guess there can be "good" to be gleaned from this (as Jung says the 'dark angel' is also the 'light')...Or at least in trying to get out, we utilize some parts of ourselves that lead to self-awareness, or some strengths we've never had before.


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## CECIL

hotrille said:


> Or at least in trying to get out


Through, not out


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