# Styles of prayer



## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

I guess this is an almost embarassingly personal section, but does anyone have any good prayers? My favorite one is for clearing space, it feels very positive, and seems to have brought me some inner peace since I started doing it. I ask for all negativity/energies to be removed from my room and the house (taken into the light of God).

When I write things like this I always think of unreligious folk I know and how they would think I was a nutcase. But it's powerfully positive, and is second nature. It seems to make me _feel_ much better as well. A strong wish for peace has made me think differently about things. I just thought I'd share that for those interested.

Yours truely


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## severed (Jun 11, 2007)

I'm very curious about everything religious and spiritual... Do you have a religion? Do you have a "script" when your praying for peace, or is more of a freestlye thing?

I want to find peace with God, so I'd love to know all the little details about your prayer.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Personally I don't pray but your prayer seems very simple, powerful and to the point. It doesn't surprise me that it makes you feel better and makes your room feel safer.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

I can only really talk about experiences. If you go to a Quaker's Meeting you may be able to feel the light. I've learned to connect to it via the Friends in some respects. The atmosphere is extremely positive; uplifting, healing. Sometimes it helps to have the experience of another lead to you a place. It's probably the quickest way of "proving" to yourself there is such thing as light, and that it can be received from another person/people, in the process of meditation on a loving source. Then it is a journey of embarking on a discovery of the light that shines within you whether you can see it or not.
...I believe the psychological body is important. It is a form of opening up to something else. I have only really started on that process, but by far the most fun way is to invent prayers and discover the healing benefits on request. It's probably the difference between a personal prayer and something which doesn't feel like it belongs to you.

By focussing on the heart, love can be felt. As you open up, more connection can be made to yourself, other people and the subtle light. And that is the real aim of meditation in a way...finding a centre in the havoc, finding some calm.

If I want peaceful abiding, I focus on the earth and maternal connection in bed. Just mentally reciting a few words to oneself can bring about great changes for the positive.

As I said "Mother will provide" yesterday when worrying about getting a job, my depersonalisation faded away...it's not uncommon. The words you think, the things you believe, can open to close you to a force of higher good. Or connect you back to the maternal love: acceptance and tranquil abiding.

...light is there, for sure, it's just a case of finding it.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

And all you have to do to find it is stop looking and realise its already inside you


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## suz (Mar 26, 2007)

CECIL said:


> And all you have to do to find it is stop looking and realise its already inside you


Well said 8)


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

I am not qualified to talk about light. I believe in it but believe there is always more to improve. I also tell myself a lot of affirmations that focus on the unconditional, but I believe the message may have been mixed with something of the physical world because sometimes I find it counteractive to virtue...

I believe you need to uncover what is found in yourself, so to speak. Even though you are lovable and the source is unconditional....I almost think the opening up to the source requires something. Perhaps the spirit is always shining but we are not aware of it...the eye must turn to something to appreciate it. Or something has to be done, thought or said to unobscure it, even if it is only surrendering.

I was into such New Age idealism as Conversations with God.....which may have some truth in it, but doesn't explain the relationship between the spiritual and reality very well.

It's taking much of my therapy and thoughts to try and work out a relationship between the two; being connected and conforming with the external way of doing things.

What are your thoughts on this? It isn't only a political thing, but from the spiritual point of view, I believe it is good to think there is always more, there are always ways of self-actualising more.

The good news is that you always have something to do....and doing isn't always acknoweldging the light, but increasing it in relationships and removing the obstructions to letting it be shared.


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## severed (Jun 11, 2007)

I think everything your saying is all very interesting and worth exploring. Are you religious, or do you do your own thing Rozanne?

I know my problem is that I don't feel connected to reality, don't feel it to believe in it, and that has therefore left my spirituality kind of crippled. I know it can be improved upon, if not fixed, but it's going to take some work.

God and I had a pretty bad "falling out", and I know that religion is not meant for me, but the most at peace I've felt with the idea of a creator is when I'm at my cabin, calm and away from the "chaos" of the city, and enjoying the beauty of nature. Or when I was in the centuries old churches in England, that was a powerful expiernce for me.

I agree with what you say about therapy and improving the mind. I'm going to have to think a few days and maybe try out what you're saying before I can form an opinion on it.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

I'm a person?

Does that count? It seems a pretty religious experience!

I'm being a tease 

I've been trying to write this for hours, literally. What am I?


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2007)

A person with out an ID... although no one has an solid "ID" because every one changes. During your search for "yourself"; you're continually changing... and so you'll never find "you". Settle down and be "human".

That be ?25 pounds; wam bam spank you mam :wink:


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

That I couldn't write down my identity doesn't mean I don't have one....it means I couldn't write it.


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2007)

*Deleted*


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2007)

Emulated Puppet}eer said:


> Every one has an Identity... although yours is far from simple because you?ve made matters complicated for yourself "bless"...(although this isn?t by choice)? as you write down your ID... it has already changed because you focus so much on the details which change with ease.
> 
> You cure is to "Edited" *Puppy eyes*


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Emulated Puppet}eer said:


> A person with out an ID... although no one has an solid "ID" because every one changes. During your search for "yourself"; you're continually changing... and so you'll never find "you". Settle down and be "human".
> 
> That be ?25 pounds; wam bam spank you mam :wink:


Are you a secret Buddhist Darren? To be honest I do agree with you that being too concerned with mentally working definate concrete ideas about yourself or God is very difficult because you and your ideas are in a constant flux.


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2007)

I'm DOG... and dyslexic :wink:


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2007)

Rozanne"... All i'm gonna say is at the moment (meaning i'll carry on talking later on =P) is "Male Submission".


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Your DOG, what does that mean? you are a dog woof woof


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2007)

Teehee... you haven't clicked on...


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## falling_free (Nov 3, 2004)

Its god spelled backwards


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2007)

*Claps*... I like clever people *Gives falling_free a merit*


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

I get it now  dont I feel stupid,

Still it would be better if you thought you were a dog


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## falling_free (Nov 3, 2004)

Emulated Puppet}eer said:


> *Claps*... I like clever people *Gives falling_free a merit*


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2007)

My nickname isn?t Em Pup for nothing =P


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2007)

falling_free said:


>


Hahha... you.da.man! *Thumbs up*


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Sorry but I don't know what you are talking about....

Darren, I have to admit that I suffer from some identity alteration because I have low level depersonalisation most of the time. This shifts to extreme experiences of having no "identification", only being myself, when I am feeling overly spiritual - which is most of the time of late.

It isn't a character flaw to have no identity I don't think. It is character flaw to have no personality IMHO. I used to lack personality - for some reason it was inhibited by my background. I always felt that being anything in particular was frowned upon by my mother as some form of acting...that I could not hide mysef in any way shape or form. That I was not allowed to be myself.

As I have grown older and taken great breaths of inspiration from inidividuals who seemsomewhat "self-actualised" to me...I have began to grow in myself.

On this point, I completely agree with Jung that the personality must grow to meet its object....that the mind must accommadate or go out to meet it, in order to really be at one with it.

I have some very strong beliefs. Mainly in the kundalini and in the negative effects of negative actions on the personality.

It may be a misguided value system but in any case it is one I hold.

So to others I may have no identity but I would identify myself as:

An INFP, a sensitive person who gets bored easily, someone who agrees with a lot of what Jung wrote but not everything....someone who needs to have friends that are religious or innerly aware in some way....someone who is keen on analysis....

People often say I am complicated. It always surprised me that they thought that, mainly because I used to suppress myself in interactions with others in order to not appear complicated.

In actual fact I am just a big introvert who finds it hard to be aware of anything else other than what is happening in my mind/body at any particular moment in time. It would make me seem a little strange on complicated but always made sense to myself....because I couldn't avoid it. It is part of who I am.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Like others have said, you can't define yourself. To define yourself would be to contain it, limit it. But we are limitless beings and can't be contained.

So, who am I? I AM. That is all 

As for the Spiritual vs Reality idea - its a tough one. The idea that I personally follow is to turn everything upside down. For example, the doctrines of our current society are that the physical comes first. Body arose from evolution, the mind eventually developed out of the body and then our concept of god evolved out of the mind.

Turn it upside down.

The mind is only a reflection of the spirit. The body is a reflection of the mind. The physical is a shadow of a higher "plane" or "dimension" of reality, which is made up of only pure energy of various types and frequencies. Or in other words, all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration.

So what does that mean? That our physical bodies are only "protrusions" down into 3D space from the rest of our energy, which doesn't abide by the rules and limits of 3D space. Any pathology originates in the spirit/energy and if not healed will manifest as a physical illness. In some cases it will kill your physical body.

It also means that "reality" is highly changeable. And that "If you know the words the world is made of, you can make of it whatever you will" (Terrence McKenna).


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

CECIL said:


> Like others have said, you can't define yourself. To define yourself would be to contain it, limit it. But we are limitless beings and can't be contained.
> 
> So, who am I? I AM. That is all
> 
> ...


I also believe words are powerful and the explanation about limitlessness is true I believe. But not limitless in the way our limited minds construe. I guess I believe the physical world is limited but that beyond it there are no limits.

It's funny because limitlessness to me meets infinite depth, as opposed to infinite expansion...but it's a topic we can toy with if you have any suggestions on the nature of the spirit!


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

~Rozanne~ said:


> On this point, I completely agree with Jung that the personality must grow to meet its object....that the mind must accommadate or go out to meet it, in order to really be at one with it.


My opinion is that there is no such thing as personal growth as such, well not in the sense that you can add something to yourself from the outside, what I mean is that what most people see as personal growth is actually just people realising who and what they already are underneath. For example in my own personal life I have felt the biggest shifts when I have realised certain beliefs or feelings about myself were false, like I always used to think that it was bad to get angry so I would suppress my anger, but now I have recalimed my ability to get angry by dropping that belief, some people may say that I have grown but in reality I have just realised an aspect of myself that was always there. Underneath we have the potential to be 100% whole and complete and the ability to realise that is not about gaining anything or growing, it is about dropping what you already have which is limiting you, its about letting go of your conditioning which restricts you.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

I agree with you Pablo though I still think that everyone's energy is constantly evolving and learning new things.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Hm.

It makes me think of an experiment in school where we got cells from the skin of an onion - submerged it in salt water so the water left the cell and it collapsed. The cell membrane would separate from the wall. (I think)

Anyway, the point of what I'm trying to say is that the emotional life can be expanded to fill the whole of the body as it should, instead of a small space. To me a reduction in the personality is feeling as though you have no personal space.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Yep, personal space is a big one. Many things can "Squash" us and our emotions and over time I think we learn to do those things to ourself through a number of methods (thought patterns etc). That's pretty much how I see depression and DP


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

_Totally_...though for me it was as though mum had demanded my space to such an extent that I was (for some unknown reason) not inclined to fight for it. As well as that we just connected on a mental level, me and mum. In that way, we really got along...almost abnormally.

I now see things in terms of dual and non-dual levels of existance. So the earth, and all things separate are about space - and it's good to have some - and the non-dual are the: whoa, we are all one....isn't it great.

I strongly believe in reinforcing and developing in the personality, to counteract this way of living, this depersonalisation.....this alienation from reality and all things worth enjoying on the basic level. It's so nice to have learned this.

Can't believe it took me so long:

understanding vs. knowledge

Let the two be complementary.

It's so blindingly obvious. Now I know knowledge is a an issue...I see it as an opportunity. And I can see what knowledge does for people....I want to be like those undividuals who care about learning things...and not only concepts.

I wonder what one can do by only understanding and not knowing? Or what one can do by knowing but not ever understanding?... at some deep level they are both the same thing?

What is this thing called knowledge, that sees objects and discontinuity?...and understanding, which sees patters and continuity? What separates the two?

And where do they unite? I want to know! I want to meditate on it.


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## Anla (May 1, 2007)

Before dr, I was really able to feel the presence of God. Especially when I sang songs about God.

Now I feel nothing. I keep going to church, say prayers, etc.

But I feel nothing.

Anyone else have this experience? What do you think?

Anla


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

Anla

I don't feel anything either usually.

It makes things very hard for me. I can't connect with people, I can't connect with nature, I can't connect with myself and it is extremely hard for me to connect with God.

I am however very set in my belief of who God is and who his people are.

Even though I at times don't feel like there is anything that exists at all, I force myself to look for answers to life's big questions. I force myself because I realize that although my feelings are shot and I can not connect with anything, I realize that this is an amazing world and I do value being here even though it may be extremely painful for me most of the time.

Don't put to much thought into your detachment. DP/DR really does not have anything to do with God. It is just a messed up condition we have.



> I was really able to feel the presence of God


Just remember, feeling God is not what is important anyway. 
Many people "feel" God and many people believe that they are serving God, many of these very people are also going to be destroyed.

Mt 7:21-23
21 ?Not everyone saying to me, ?Lord, Lord,? will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ?Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?? 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.

(Self righteousness, powerful works, prophesy, expelling demons and proclaiming that you are saved for accepting Jesus into your hear or "feeling" the power of God are not things that will save anyone from death.)

These are Jesus own words.

?Not everyone saying to me, ?Lord, Lord,? will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. "

So don't get to upset about not being able to feel things right. That is not what is important.

All that matters to God is that we observe his commandments and keep doing his will and not just our own will. God will take care of everything else in his own time.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2007)

Why pray when ist proven it got absolutely NO EFFECT


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> Why pray when ist proven it got absolutely NO EFFECT


Prayer is not simply us commanding God to do our bidding.

There are prayers that God does not even listen to.

John 9:31
We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is God-fearing and does his will, he listens to this one.

Our prayers toward God are a way for us to express our feelings and our thoughts to him. It is also a way for us to get to be closer to God, knowing that he is interested in us as individuals.

Prayers should always be in line with God's will and they should always be done in a humble manor. It is not God's responsibility to listen to us and give in to our demands. He listens to our prayers because it is his own desire to do so.

The bible shows us how we should be praying to God. Jesus gave us a model example for our prayers found at Mt 6:9-13

9 ?YOU must pray, then, this way:

??Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10 Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth. 11 Give us today our bread for this day; 12 and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And do not bring us into temptation, but deliver us from the wicked one.?

The first thing Jesus prayed for was for the sanctification of God's name. Sadly many people do not even know what God's name is. Learning God's name then would be a good first step to take if you want to be serious about your prayers. That way you will know who's name it is that is needing to be sanctified.

Jesus next spoke of God's Kingdom. He prayed for God's Kingdom to come and for God's will to take place here on earth just as it is taking place in heaven. This shows us that right now God's will is not being done here on this earth. Notice these first two things that Jesus prayed for were both about God and his Kingdom. This shows unselfishness on Jesus behalf and it is an example for us to follow when we are praying to God.

Jesus went on to ask that God give us our bread for "this day". Note that Jesus did not ask God for all the bread of the earth. He simply asked for enough bread for "this day". This shows us that we should probably not be asking God for more then we are needing at the present time.

As long as prayers to God are done in the right manor and with the right heart condition then God is sure to be listening to those prayers. This does not mean that God is going to be answering all of our prayers right when we want him to though. 
Ec 3:1,2
1 For everything there is an appointed time, even a time for every affair under the heavens: 2 a time for birth and a time to die; a time to plant and a time to uproot what was planted;

God has his own time and his own way for taking care of things.
God's will is going to take place here on this earth but for now we must all be patient and wait for God's own time for doing things.

So the main point in prayer is to draw closer to God.

God already knows what things we need and he knows what things we desire. Prayer does not offer any extra information to God that he does not already have. It is simply one of the ways that we show our respect toward him and our love for him. Giving him the time of day to express ourselves toward him and let him know how we feel. It is a form of worship.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Actually that's not true MentallyIll - I think there've been scientific studies done that show prayer/positive thinking has a positive effect on a person.

Understanding and knowledge are interesting subjects. Until recently I believed that knowledge was power and that you could potentially understand everything in a logical manner. But you can't. There's always mystery, always something there that we can't quite grasp. Yet we continue living our lives (hopefully) in the face of that and we learn by experience. We have faith that the sun will come up the next day, that our heart will beat one more time and that we'll take another breath, even if we aren't quite sure why.

Knowledge, i.e. learning things can be important. But its also a bit of an ego game. We try to learn as much as possible, try to understand as much as possible, to gain control over the universe. But we can never have that sort of control.

We are also very stuck in a 3D view of how knowledge works. I've spoken about this before so bare with me  We think that the only things we can know are what we have learned, what we can "hold" in our brains. But that's not the case - all knowledge in the universe is accessible to us because everything is connected. So really, you don't need to hold anything inside you, you can just access it on a whim. You'll never be able to hold the entire universe's knowledge inside your head, its just too large and bizzarre. That's the theory anyway, I'm not quite there yet


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Your God sounds conditional, Lostone. I believe in something quite the opposite: that God is a source of love, not meeting administrative needs. So feeling is really what I think it is about.

How could a person think they had a spirit unless they felt it were the case...healing is about feeling also, as the resolution of suffering. If you had no feelings you wouldn't need to be healed. Even the absence of feelings, for a human being is a feeling, of something being missing.

I mean, I do agree that conduct is important, but somehow I think that is easier when you have the use of feelings, as feelings are the source of values and moral life for most people (via guilt).

A prayer means something to me if I feel there has been a connection made. By making a connection I believe I am able to know the commandments as a physical fact - in my body- as opposed to a belief system...so feelings I believe are important.

If a person had evil intentions but did good things....would they be doing something meaningful or correct? Intention, for me, is related to feeling.

I don't know if I am making much sense but you should take a closer look at feelings as a source of guidance, not only an adversary of objective morals.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

Angel_Ariel

I am not sure what exactly I said that made you think I am against all feelings but I think maybe you misunderstood me a little.

I have no problem with feelings. Love is a feeling but it also has a lot to do with principle. There is more to it then just feelings. That is why even if someones emotions get messed up they are still able to display love for something or someone. If you look up the meaning of the Greek word "Agape" then you will see that the Greeks also had a wider view of love then just simple attachment or emotional feeling. They actually had more then one word for Love because they saw that there are different types of love. Such as the difference in the type of love a man and wife would share and the type of love that a human would be able to feel toward God.



> A prayer means something to me if I feel there has been a connection made


That is understandable and I think I would agree that it is also pleasing to God that your true feelings go along with your words and actions. It is not God's objective to force people to do things against their will. He created us out of love and that is all he is really asking back from us. Just that we show him our love for him as he has shown his love for us.



> Your God sounds conditional, Lostone


Yes that is true that my God is conditional but I do not see how that is a bad thing. I would not see how it would be good (for example) if God continued to give Satan everything that he wants and to answer every request that Satan makes toward God. That would be going far beyond love, that would be crossing the line into lawlessness and chaos and since my God is holy he would never be able to aid lawlessness and disorder. Therefore anyone that is continuing on in lawlessness and disorder and not even displaying a serious desire to repent is probably not going to find God answering any of their prayers.

Your belief that God is a source of love is not in contradiction to what I believe. The bible actually says that God is not only a source of love but he is love. *1 John 4:8 He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love. *

Being able to connect with God and feel good about your beliefs is a good thing. What is more important though is taking in knowledge about who God is and about what God is doing and what he wants us to be doing. That way we can live a life that is pleasing to God. 
John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

This knowledge teaches us that the greatest commandment is that we have love for God and for our neighbor. 
Matthew 22:36-40
36 ?Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?? 37 He said to him: ??You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.? 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ?You must love your neighbor as yourself.? 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.?

So yes it is very important to understand what love is and to display love toward God and toward our fellow human beings.

This love is based upon accurate knowledge of things though. It would be unwise to just walk blindly through life following whatever makes us feel good. We should all make a very active search for truth and for what is good and holy.

Simply feeling that you are going to live forever does not necessarily mean that you will be living forever according to the bible. Those feelings need to also be in line with actions. And the best way to get your actions in line with God's will is to learn about what God's will is for us.

If you truly do love God unselfishly then you will be motivated to understand him better anyway, and your desire to learn about him should motivate you to take action.

Angel_Ariel God is indeed Love and that is why he has provided us with the bible so that we would have the knowledge needed to keep living and be able to enjoy life and grow in our love for God. If you truly believe in God and love him, then I suggest that you do everything you can in order to learn about him. The best way to do this is by reading the bible and studying it each day.

Always keep searching out the truth about God as if you were searching for hidden treasure and you will have no doubts about who God is or about how he wants you to be living your life!

Pr 2:4,5
4 if you keep seeking for it as for silver, and as for hid treasures you keep searching for it, 5 in that case you will understand the fear of Jehovah, and you will find the very knowledge of God



> you should take a closer look at feelings as a source of guidance


Yes feelings are a source of guidance and if those feelings are in the right place then I would expect those feelings to lead you to study the bible. Feelings do guide our heart and knowledge also guides our heart. If your feelings are guiding you toward what is good and holy then I would guess that you feelings are guiding you to the bible's teachings.

God knows who his people are and if you are one of his people Angel_Ariel then I am sure that he will be helping you along with where your feelings and where your heart leads you. That is what I believe and that is what the bible teaches. God is very active in helping his people get to know exactly who he is and who his people are. That is what I believe.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2007)

Positive thinking yeah got nothin to do wit super natural.
Bein depressed/negative is strainin the body all natural.
Either im very smart or you guys simply retarded.

THERE IS NO GOD OK try this for 2 weeks pray to your pillow for things then compare to when u pray to ur god EXACT same results

Man in 500 years from now people will laugh so bad of religion and superstitiuon

Its wlike we now laugh of witches lucky horse shoes etc man humanity is so stupid i get depressed

How the fuck an love be God when love is a emotion felt by humans/animals

WAKE UP the world IS FUCKED either God made us gave a fuck n forgot us or he NEVER existed

How can it be that 90% of US is Christian 10% atheist yet, 75% of US prisoners is Christians and only 0.2% atheist

DP/DR is escape from reality NONE of u will ever recover cause u cant handle reality. Cause ofcourse facin REALITY is HAAARDand I m strugglin HARD WITH IT HAAAARD but if u just face ur wishful fantasy ur screwed

If u cant be satisfied with bein so INCREDIBY lucky to have been borned(u cant be lucky to be bornd if ur believin in God cause then it was intended)
If u cant be happy with urself and ur lief is purpose and meanin enough but u NEED some fantasy retardedness U WILL NOT RECOVER simple as that ull always be dissatisfied

I mean the world is 5k years old COMEON WTF ur brain is a screwup in evolution if u can fall for that

I tried REALL Y hard the God delusio praed and prayed to get well so I Could see people as real again so I could love them(prolly the most honest prayer possible) yet nothin.. after 6months of surpressin logic evidence fact and rationality I became a atheist again

I mea listen to that idiot LOSTONE "i think gays is bad because the bible says so" WTF how retarded and fukedup can u become..STILL HE CLAIMS TO THINK FOR HIMSELF LOL and dont tell me Im offensive, sayin gays is bad based on some 2k year old book IS OFFENSIVE

why do I care?

cause reliigion is the root of all evil:

Kids fearin hell ad get emotionally mentall scared from childhood feelin guilty scared etc cause their parents is delusional and not fit to be parents
people killin theselves and others screamin JIHAD
Cause planes fly into buildins 
Cause Bush claim God told him to invade Iraq

cause more peoples been killed in the name of God than anythin
Cause its offensive to women homosexuals and atheists
Atheist are not considered citizins in US apparently accordin to Bush cause its a nation under God eventho the foundin fathers of US wasnt christian LOL
Cause they force their delusion on the next eneration and reeject scientific facts causin evolution to stand still

ofcousre LOSTONE Will quote his savior book without even readin what it says to try to defend himself dont even bother if u support hatin ays for no reason and killin in the nameof "GOD"(love) i dont want to talk to u
if i wanna disagree with the bible ill just read it and wipe my ass with it u got no soul u cant argue cause ur just a robot reepeatin old doctorine


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

MentallyIll all I want to say is that I agree that much of what has happened in the name of religion has been bad.

Usually though, religion is not actually the real reason that wars are started. Wars are started more often because of greed and lust for power then for any other reason. Religion is usually just an excuse or a way for political leaders to get the population motivated to goto war.

As for my own religion.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not murder people, if any Jehovah's Witness does murder anyone then they would be disfellowshipped. It is against the bible and against my religion to take part in any war or to join any political movement or join any army. Jehovah's Witnesses are dedicated and devoted to Jehovah God alone. The only kingdom that Jehovah's Witnesses will be fighting for is the kingdom of God, and they do this simply by going door to door and informing people about that kingdom just as Jesus has told us to do.

And the bible's teachings about death is that death is no more then the common grave. 
Ec 9:10
All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She?ol, the place to which you are going.

It is not the teaching of the bible or of my religion that God tortures people in a literal hellfire for all eternity.

MentallyIll I am not sure why you are calling me names but it is not very mature.

I am sort of wondering actually how old you are and what country you are in? You have insulted my intelligence a number of times, all the while I have been having a very hard time reading your posts because of your bad grammar. I figure either English is not your first language or you are just a child. If you are a child then I forgive you for the name calling but if you are a teen or an adult then I would suggest that you don't resort to name calling for your own benefit. It looks better on your part if you are able to hold a conversation without resorting to name calling.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2007)

Im 19 and no english is not my language and my eyboard is messedup so its hard to type some of the letters get stuck.

Just answer me this:

Why are gays bad WHY without referiun to the Bible WHY is it sinful to be born gay


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> Why are gays bad WHY without referiun to the Bible WHY is it sinful to be born gay


I will not quote you scripture if you don't want me to but I will just say that the bible's viewpoint of sinning against God has nothing to do with feeling attracted toward other members of the same sex.

*The sin is committed only when the act of homosexuality is preformed.*
It is also a sin to commit fornication. So it is not just male/male and female/female sex that is wrong according to the bible but it is all sex that is taking place outside of the marriage arrangement. I could go into much more detail about what the bible says about all this but I will spare you that.

One of the reasons it is wrong is because of the obvious use for sex. Sex is an act that allows us to create new life. This is not able to happen in a homosexual relationship. Therefore if everyone were to turn gay, there would be no more human beings on planet earth!

There are other reasons also though like the spreading of different diseases. And also the social impact that homosexuality has on people.

The thing is though MentallyIll is that if you do believe in God then you have to view everything differently.

Really without God, as I said before, there is really no point in any of us saying what is right or what is wrong. Everything that we are doing here on this earth basically has no point anyway if we are all doomed to death and there is no real meaning to our existence. Without God, everyone will simply decide for themselves what they like best and then become outspoken about their way of lifestyle. The problem with this is that each individuals lifestyle may conflict with the lifestyles of other people. So who is really able to set the standards for everyone in order that the rights of one person do not cross the rights of another?

Human leaders have shown us that rather then making things more peaceful and less conflicting they have made things very bloody and conflicting. In every place around this world their is violence because of conflicting values and conflicting ideas about how we should all be living out our lives. So without God's guidance we have all proven to ourselves that humans are not able to rule over themselves very well. Bloodshed, violence and chaos is all we have really accomplished over the years, and I am pretty positive things here on earth are about to get way more bloody.

If there comes to be a day in your life when you start to wonder to yourself if there may actually be a creator watching over you then you will realize that anyone with the power to create the universe would also have the power to know what is best for all of us.

True Christians are not gay bashers and they are not homophobics. In reality some true Christians have committed homosexual acts themselves in the past. Becoming a true Christian has nothing to do with self righteousness. It simply means that you are aware of who God is. That he is the creator of the universe and that he knows what is best for us.

Sex is not that big of an issue when it is compared to everlasting life. People that have once been gay have the ability to change and eventually live in a paradise earth where they will be able to enjoy things the way things were meant to be enjoyed. 
The bible does not say that you must have sex with women. If you don't want to marry a women then that is fine. All the bible says is that men should not be having sexual relations with other men and women should not be having sexual relations with other women.

I think that it is obvious that homosexuality is against the natural way of things. If men were supposed to be sleeping with men then men should be able to impregnate other men. That is just not the way things are though.

MentallyIll if you really do not believe in God then you should not worry about what religious people think about homosexuality. It should not matter to you. At least my beliefs should not matter to you because I am no threat to any homosexual. Jehovah's Witnesses are instructed from the bible to develop love for everyone and that includes homosexuals. "Love of neighbor" includes all other human beings on earth. So if you do not believe in my God then don't worry about the things that I say.

If there is some part of you that does wonder about God though then I suggest you think about the power that God would have and think about the wisdom that God would have to be able to create this universe.

Think to yourself, if there is a God then wouldn't he know what is best for us all? Would he not know what is good for his own creations?

I take my guidance from him not just because his message is a message of peace but because I have no doubts about his existence.

I do not go around trying to make gay people feel guilty about their choices in life but I simply do my best to conform my own life with bible teachings. Jesus made it very clear that he came to this earth to save "sinners". He did not die so that he could make those "sinners" feel guilty about anything. He came here simply to give us a hope for life. I would not really be following Jesus example if I were to ever look down on anyone for anything. So I always do my best to be humble about things. But I will not lie to people about what the bible says because that is not a loving or helpful thing for me to do to anyone.

I try to inform people about the bibles teaching because I am motivated by love to try and inform people that there is a hope for the future. There is a hope for something better then what we are all now experiencing. Everyone is messed up one way or another but that is not the way things are always going to be.

This was a pretty long post but the question you asked me is not a question I want to give a quick and short answer to. I don't want there to be any confusion about my beliefs.

If you want to know a little more about my beliefs concerning homosexuality then you might want to read this. http://www.watchtower.org/library/g/200 ... cle_01.htm

MentallyIll I am sorry for saying that about your grammar, if English is not your first language then you are doing just fine.

19 is not really adult in my eyes and I hope you will grow out of the name calling business someday. It makes you look bad to have to resort to name calling. Thats something I figured out a long time ago. When I was your age I was very angry toward God and I said many things that I regret a great deal now. I used to blame God for everything and at times I even felt great hate toward him, even while believing that he was very real. There were times when I really believed that God was evil and I have given that idea a lot of thought. 
It was the Jehovah's Witnesses who have helped me understand that God is not evil though. After many years of studying with them I am just now starting to feel like I really want to get baptized and dedicate my life to God.

It is possible that as you grow older your views and beliefs may change. Maybe not, but I would advise that if you do not believe in God you might want to at least be as respectful as possible toward religion in general because as I said, your views and beliefs may change in time. 
For a long time I felt as if I had committed the unforgivable sin myself and it has taken me a long time to get over my bad feelings about some of the horrible things I have done and said in my past.

If you don't believe in God then you should probably just leave the subject of religion alone. That's just my advise. If you are unsure or if you have doubts then you should do more listening and think things through with an open mindset. It seems to me that you are not totally atheist but that you actually have a lot of anger built up toward God. If you were totally atheist then I would not think that you would get so upset about the subject of religion.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2007)

LOSTONE said:


> > Why are gays bad WHY without referiun to the Bible WHY is it sinful to be born gay
> 
> 
> One of the reasons it is wrong is because of the obvious use for sex. Sex is an act that allows us to create new life. This is not able to happen in a homosexual relationship. Therefore if everyone were to turn gay, there would be no more human beings on planet earth!
> ...


True homosexuality are a "defect" or whatever in evolution but in human sense it doesn't matter at all.

Actually your arguement is supporting evolution and denyin christianity if christianity is true only LOVE for eachother matter NOT sexual preference.

A side note: IF EVERYONE was hetrosexuals two negative things would happen; we'd e even MORE over populated and there would be less girls to go around for me;P

The other thing you said: I UNDERSTAND it feels like "oh there is no God so if I wanted to I an just kill whoever I like to cause I won't get no eternal punishment or judgeement.
Now I firmly believe I could kill anyone EVEN a priest and not get no judgement at death.
So why don't I? First well, WHY THE FUCK would I kill a fellow human being. Secondly: we still got prisons. Thirdly: I could not live with myself as a killer.
Now how do I and 50% of the world who is atheist/agnostic perform this miracle of morality without a deity?

Logic, common sense, respect... How can you explain
that ive always had manners, morals, empathy compassion while blaspheming against God.

If the only reason you dont walk around being a serialkiller because u fear God ur obviously LESS moral and nice than me.

If God will judge me for makin up my own mind ad utilizing my freewill: FUCK HIM.

Tell me ow is it that 90% of US is christian and theres 1 in 8 thats ****/lesbian? Does this mean 14% of christians are gay? yeah
Do they live in celibacy? Hahaha hell no. Will they go to hell Cause GOD created them gay? remember "ur created in Gods image" so clearly he has a gayside to him

Personally I believe religion was invented to control humanity, they were indimidated by freethinkers and figured out how to scare people to death.

I grew up ast because my dad was a drugaddict who went throuh occasional Drug induced psychosis and was never around. My mom was too busy and had to raise my 2 sisters at the same time. So obviously I had to figure everything out myself.
My mom is a freethinker who believe there is somethin to the universe that science can't define but she leans towards the reincarnation karma/dharma doctorine.
So did my dad, but none o them ever even thought about teaching it to me and let me find out what I wanted to place faith in myself. THANK "GOD" FOR THAT.
I was agnostic all my life...

I was hit with existential crisis and sought out deeper understandin meaning and hope.
I tried HAARD, I was told by guru's i was having enlightenment experiences, moksha/salvation. I just felt insane and said fuck it when I cried out to god for help and just got worse.
Then I started thinkin rational and read books like "the God part of the brain" and see how this shit can be in our DNA past down from our anchestors(from millions of years ago).

This is my personal philosophy:
The difference of us and anials is that we can think freely because of language, we can ask questions, we are free'd from our instincts.
We can chose based on logic and not just pure survival/lust.
We can set goals and plan, which makes us different and we are so AWARE of our environment, we can study the beauty.
Another thing is that we are so AWARE of our own death, ofcourse our ego's think we DESERVE an afterlife so we cameup with myth of Gods.
First it was simple "THE SUN IS THE GOD" then as humans evolved, so did the myths.

Ever since kindergarden Ive been against authorities and denied to follow anyone, I stopped doing homework at age 11 and quit paying attention to anything other than girls in school, I felt what I was taught was boring. 
Am I stupid? No, I would not say that, all my english, all my knowledge is SELF LEARNED I don't need anyone to teah me shit and least of all to tell me how to live my own life.

To you I'm probably a satanic ignorant sinful humanbeing, to mysel Im a freethinking naturalborn leader, NOT follower.

My way of life has involved mistakes like everyone, lots of them, but I learn from every experience.

To me this is rational and understandable, I feel LUCKY to have this journey in existance on planet Earth, Im not goin to "sell my soul" to be a slave to some invisible deity we got NO NONE ZERO NADA NOT EVEN ONE evidence of.
To me DEATH is final, so hell yeah I'll enjoy it 'til the end and when I die I won't regret the way I've lived life.
If Jesus magically appears on Earth and split a ocean in half or fly or somethin supernatural I'll reconsider but until then, I have to laugh at religion cause in my eyes it's ridiculous waste of life - no offense.

So will I o to hell? in your eyes, yeah, in a hindu's , no Ill be reincarnated with karmic merit but as I do nothin wrong, it won't be such a bad merit. To a evolutionist I'll die and nothin will happen and I'll makesure as much as possible happens BEFORE that.

I pointed out the reasons why I hate religion in my last post so I wont do that again.
What I notice is that most christians has selective view on the bible and the way they lead their lives now a days, while before everyone followed the bible as te receipe to life which proves oe thin HUMANS ARE MOVING ON and religion will be nothing more than a myth in a few centuries

I got no anger towards something I have decided to believe does not exist ut look around what religion does throuh OBJECTIVE perspective and ull understand why I have so much anger towards the DELUSION RELIGION

If there was a God I'd love him. but there isnt so I place my love towards things that DO exist: ANIMALS AND HUMANS


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## joepert (Aug 16, 2006)

God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?

_Friedrich Nietzsche_

My favorite philosopher <3


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## falling_free (Nov 3, 2004)

I thought we wern't meant to debate in this section about religion if we disagree with the views expressed in the posts??? ie disagree with relgious belief

This is clearly taking place in this thread......


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> So will I o to hell?


That is not a question I am in a position to answer.

All I can do is show you what the bible says.

Ro 6:23
For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.

Death is a reality to all of us. It is an act of undeserved kindness on God's part that he has provided his son as a payment for our error. This is the only way anyone will be able to continue living.

So my belief is that we are all in the same boat. We are all sinners and deserving of death according to God's law. It is up to God to apply Jesus ransom toward whomever he chooses.

God is able to take all things into account. Therefore he is able to judge people with full knowledge of the facts of each individuals motives and situation in life.



> Logic, common sense, respect


MentallyIll who is setting the standards for "logic, common sense and respect"?

The logic and common sense of one man can very easily cross the logic and common sense of another man. It happens all the time, every day of the week.

The way things go here for humans is that whoever has the most power is the one that is usually forcing their own ideas upon everyone else. The standard for logic on this planet usually comes from the most ruthless and illogical human beings on earth. And their logic is forced upon everyone else. 
The logic of God is not forced onto anyone by God. It is a choice he leaves up to us.



> To you I'm probably a satanic ignorant sinful humanbeing, to mysel Im a freethinking naturalborn leader, NOT follower.


No I don't view you that way at all.

But I do consider you a follower. You are following many others who went in your direction before you. And I do believe there will be more people going your direction in the future. It is actually a bible prophecy that before Judgment day we will all be witnesses to the destruction of most all religion.

Re 18:2-5
2 And he cried out with a strong voice, saying: ?She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, and she has become a dwelling place of demons and a lurking place of every unclean exhalation and a lurking place of every unclean and hated bird! 3 For because of the wine of the anger of her fornication all the nations have fallen [victim], and the kings of the earth committed fornication with her, and the traveling merchants of the earth became rich due to the power of her shameless luxury.?

4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: ?Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind.

Re 18:21
And a strong angel lifted up a stone like a great millstone and hurled it into the sea, saying: ?Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again.

Re 18:23,24
23 and no light of a lamp will ever shine in you again, and no voice of a bridegroom and of a bride will ever be heard in you again; because your traveling merchants were the top-ranking men of the earth, for by your spiritistic practice all the nations were misled. 24 Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.?

Babylon was the center of false worship in bible times so Babylon the Great is a symbol for all false teachings and false worship that has been taking place here on earth today.

The bible makes it clear that most of what is taking place with the religions of the world are not pleasing to God at all. And not all religions that profess to be following Jesus are actually doing so. You can not group all religions together because there can only be one single truth. Either God does exist or he does not. Either one teaching is correct about God or another teaching is correct about God.

The teachings of my own religion are all teachings of peace and they have never been anything other then teachings of peace. My religion has literally gotten millions of people around the world to beat their swords into plowshares and to quit learning war.

Don't group all religions together as if they are all the same because not all religious are the same.

For example, the things that the Catholics are doing has nothing to do with what the Jehovah's Witnesses are doing. They are both completely different religions. It is true that both religions profess that the bible is the word of God but the difference is that one religion is following the teachings of the bible and another is not.

I agree with you MentallyIll that it will not be long before all of humanity is united under the same set of beliefs. The only difference in our beliefs about that is just the details about how that will happen.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> I thought we wern't meant to debate in this section about religion if we disagree with the views expressed in the posts??? ie disagree with relgious belief


I don't see how debate is going to be prevented here.

Unless everyone is in agreement about their beliefs then I do not see how people can be supporting each other about spirituality without debating about it.

It is my desire to only give support but my support that I would give will never be viewed as support to many people. For someone that does not believe in God, the things I say may be more offensive then supporting and vise versa.

debate seems a little unavoidable but it is not really something I am please to take part in.

I think I will try to drop all of the spiritual threads I have been posting in. 
I have made my beliefs clear I think. If I am unable to support anyone here because my beliefs are in conflict with the beliefs of other people then I will leave.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

MentallyIll said:


> Positive thinking yeah got nothin to do wit super natural.
> Bein depressed/negative is strainin the body all natural.
> Either im very smart or you guys simply retarded.


With all due respect, what's your problem?


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

LOSTONE said:


> I don't see how debate is going to be prevented here.


Debate per se isn't a bad thing. I mean, if we debate amongst ourselves and learn something or change our outlook in some positive way, I think that is a good thing. Religious ideas should be tested. The only thing I'm against is the destructive kind of debate that doesn't wish to get anywhere or learn anything.

If we are trying to help each other, I don't see the problem with arguing a little bit to get to some profound internal truth. Good can come out of bad I believe.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

LOSTONE said:


> If I am unable to support anyone here because my beliefs are in conflict with the beliefs of other people then I will leave.


Dear Lostone, 
I don't agree with everything you say but I like to think there is humanity beyond having to agree on everything. I would like to read your opinion and it may change my outlook. I have been thinking about what you said about feelings and actions and how this applies to me. So don't think you need to be fully understood to have a good/challenging effect on others spiritual outlooks. Realistically, your view point IS challenging, but that is not always a bad thing either. I saw a quote the other day which said:

Christ wasn't only a comforter of the afflicted he was an afflicter of the comfortable.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2007)

*LOSTONE* it does seem as if you?re always behind the bible? as if the sincere ?you? isn?t to be seen. ?Each to their own?. You're a interesting guy in my eyes... do you beleive everything has only existed for ten thousand years yourself though?


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> Debate per se isn't a bad thing. I mean, if we debate amongst ourselves and learn something or change our outlook in some positive way, I think that is a good thing. Religious ideas should be tested. The only thing I'm against is the destructive kind of debate that doesn't wish to get anywhere or learn anything.
> 
> If we are trying to help each other, I don't see the problem with arguing a little bit to get to some profound internal truth. Good can come out of bad I believe.


I basically agree with you Angel_Ariel.

I would just like to add that if the idea behind a debate is really seriously so that something can be learned then there will be no real debate. Questions will be asked and answers will be given.

I don't really like the idea of debating about the bible or about God's existence.

Honestly I don't think I would even be here talking about this subject on this forum if I were baptized. If I wanted to really preach the right way then this is not exactly the way that I would go about doing that. Dpselfhelp is not really a good place to be preaching to people on an open forum.

If anyone is looking for answers about God then I can assure you that the Watchtower society has provided a huge amount of free information that will help people to understand the bible. Some of the books that they have wrote are all about creation and they also talk about the evolution theory. Much of this is talked about in the book "Is There a Creator Who Cares About You?"

It is not really my aim to debate any subject about God. I have already spent years studying the subject of religion and I have no doubts at all about what is the truth anymore. So I am not really here to learn anything new. I am only here to try and help people understand what the bible actually says and what I believe in. If people do not agree with me and only want to make me look bad because they do not like what I say then I have no reason to desire to argue my point with anyone. My only desire is to answer any questions that might be raised about the subject so that anyone out there that is serious about learning about God will be able to find some answers to their questions.

If I see a debate get to out of hand about religion then I will drop the subject. I try to apply the bible's advise at Matthew 7:6

?Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw YOUR pearls before swine, that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip YOU open.

So if I start to feel like I am dealing with the type person that is only going to trample on my words and "rip me open" then I don't try to force my beliefs onto that person. I just move on and go try to talk to someone else.



> If we are trying to help each other


To try and sum up my point I will just say that I am not posting here so that we may be able to help each other. I am posting here so that I may be able to help you or anyone else. I have been over the different topics about religion so many times in my head and thought so hard about the things wrote in the bible that there is no doubt in my mind about anything anymore. I will listen closely to what other people say to me so that I can understand where that person is coming from but I no longer care to waste my time looking to much into other points of view. I have already done all that.

I already know all the basic beliefs of all the major religions in the world and I understand the theory of evolution very well. You won't see me asking very many questions about religion around here. I am simply here to try to inform other people of the things I know about.



> Realistically, your view point IS challenging


Yes I am very aware of that.



> I saw a quote the other day which said:
> 
> Christ wasn't only a comforter of the afflicted he was an afflicter of the comfortable.


These are Jesus own words.

Luke 12:51-53
51 Do YOU imagine I came to give peace on the earth? No, indeed, I tell YOU, but rather division. 52 For from now on there will be five in one house divided, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against [her] mother, mother-in-law against [her] daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against [her] mother-in-law.?

Also

Matthew 10:35-39
35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a young wife against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man?s enemies will be persons of his own household. 37 He that has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and he that has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me. 39 He that finds his soul will lose it, and he that loses his soul for my sake will find it.

It is not really Jesus fault or wish that there are divisions or that many people in this world would be stumbled at his words and seek to kill him and his followers. But it is just a reality that the perfect message that Jesus brought to this world has caused divisions and has caused many people to stumble.

Anyone being able to understand the loving message of God is expected to follow that message. That means putting God ahead of all other things. If family members, friends or the entire world is against you because you are serving God then you are expected to continue serving God no matter what happens. It would be hypocritical if you were to serve God only when it is convenient and advantageous for you to do so. Like the man "Job" we are all expected to serve God and remain loyal to him no matter what happens.

So personally I do not care if my points are challenging. I am speaking the truth and that is all I care about.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> LOSTONE it does seem as if you?re always behind the bible?


I believe that the bible is the word of God.

So the bible is what my beliefs are.

Many religions like to teach opinions but my religion likes to teach about the bible.

Since my belief is that the bible is the word of God. I will use the word of God to show people who God is and what his teachings are for us. It would not be right for me to be making up opinions about what is right and wrong since I have already put my faith into the bible.

By showing you what the bible says I am indeed showing you what my own beliefs are. So if I am hiding then I am not hiding behind anything other then my own beliefs.



> You're a interesting guy in my eyes


I am very different from most of the people in this world but I am not really sure if I am very interesting. 
LOL.



> do you beleive everything has only existed for ten thousand years yourself though?


No.

And thats not what the bible teaches. There is no scripture in the bible anywhere that says anything like that. I would go into detail about why that teaching got spread around but thats not really important. What matters is that the teaching that the bible says the earth is only 6,000 or 10,000 years old is simply a lie. The bible does not say that anywhere.

The bible gives us a pretty clear history for the human race but the bible does not go into details about the history of the earth or the history of the universe. What it says about the history of the earth and the history of the universe is very short and simple. Basically it only just says that Jehovah God was the creator of all those things. It does not say a whole lot more then that.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

Here is a link to a page that shows just a few of the publications I was talking about in my post above.

http://watchtower.org/e/publications/index.htm

All of those and many others are made available free of charge for anyone that wants to own a copy.

If anyone wants to get any of those publications then you can contact the Jehovah's Witnesses with this link. https://watch002.securesites.net/contact/submit.htm

If you wish to read that website in another language then you can find a list of languages here. http://watchtower.org/languages.htm

When they goto your house you can ask them for a copy of any of those books and they will be happy to get a copy for you.

If anyone is really interested in learning more about the bible then I would suggest contacting the Witnesses and starting up a free home bible study.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Learning isn't only about the text of the bible though is it? I think one sometimes needs to know how to apply it. I don't know anything about the Bible and I take it as a blessing that you are here and are able to quote things so effortlessly.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

LOSTONE said:


> If I see a debate get to out of hand about religion then I will drop the subject. I try to apply the bible's advise at Matthew 7:6
> 
> ?Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw YOUR pearls before swine, that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip YOU open.


I believe in having faith in people then they are less likely to act like dogs.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

LOSTONE said:


> I am however very set in my belief of who God is and who his people are.


What do you think God is?


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Dear Lostone, 
I like the fixedness of your moral viewpoint...that there is such thing as "right". Just believing in that would make me feel so much better. That's probably where I trip up. I think about the way I would feel if I lived by these words. And that is probably what propels a lot of people. So rather than disowning that fact, I admit it; how I feel does matter and I want to live right. I would feel bad if I died and felt life had been wasted. For me, there has to be a purpose....I believe in the spirit and I believe in virtue. But...

Honestly, what puts me off the Watchtower ideas...and many others, is this concept of damnation. I believe I will suffer if I what I do has a bad effect on others, but not that by default I am going to hell and I must redeem myself. I could imaging an after life in keeping with what I did wrong, perhaps, but not some massively disproportionate punishment. I'll tell you why that is. When I was growing up, I was by default treated like a pig, and through that experience I came to believe that the belief was incorrect and that my soul was good. Maybe that is arrogant? I believe it would be a sin against a God if I did not believe this, in actual fact, because I would be causing myself and others to suffer further, though my actions. Beliefs about ourselves are powerful as well as actions. So anyway, those are my 2 cents on why I'm not joining the Jehovah Witnesses and why I am also perplexed that you go on calling yourself Lost even when you are keenly religious.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> Learning isn't only about the text of the bible though is it?


No but the greatest way that anyone can get to know God better is by reading the bible. That is his letter to us. His way of letting us know what is going on. We will not be able to learn more about God from any other place then from the bible.

It is wise though to consider other information rather then just closing yourself off to all knowledge that does not come from the bible.

The Watchtower society does it's best to inform all of the Jehovah's Witnesses around the world about many of the different points of views that people have in this world. That way when the Witnesses are out preaching to people they will have a better understanding of what other people believe in so that they can somehow find some common ground to talk about.

For all the Jehovah's Witnesses there is an abundance of information that is actually a little overwhelming sometimes. If you are a Jehovah's Witness then you will probably never be feeling that you are in a short supply of information. Around the world Jehovah's Witnesses hold 5 meetings each week, and the message is exactly the same all every single Kingdom Hall around the world. Every week, every Jehovah's Witness around the world studies the exact same Watchtower that is printed in order to help people understand the bible better. There is also a lot of secular information in the Watchtower publication so there is really an overwhelming amount of info for all Witnesses to learn about.



> I think one sometimes needs to know how to apply it.


That is the biggest point in studying the bible often and with the right people. Once you find the people that are living their lives in line with bible teachings then those are the people that will best be able to help you apply the bible's teaching into your life.

You will be able to know what people are actually living in line with bible teachings by observing something very simple.

John 13:34-35
34 I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. 35 By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.?

So unless you find people displaying love for one another then you have not found Jesus disciples. Once you find Jesus disciples then they will be able to help you a great deal with understanding the bible and learning how to apply the bible to your life.

The bible also makes it clear to us what love really is. There is much more to it then simply feeling close toward someone.

1Co 13:4-7
4 Love is long-suffering and kind. Love is not jealous, it does not brag, does not get puffed up, 5 does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. 6 It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

John 15:13
No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends.



> I don't know anything about the Bible and I take it as a blessing that you are here and are able to quote things so effortlessly.


Actually it does take effort for me to find all the information in the bible that I am looking for. I have a lot of help though. I have an entire library of information on my computer that I got from the Witnesses for free. I also have a book called "reasoning from the Scriptures" that helps me a great deal to find the scriptures in the bible that answer any specific questions. It does take me time to look the stuff up though. My memory does not work to well anymore, I can remember the scriptures in my mind but I can not remember where all of them are in the bible, so it does take me time to look them up.



> Nevertheless this is a conversational board and short snippets are probably more useful to people than the long posts.


Sorry, I am doing my best to keep things short and simple. Ever since I got DP/DR it has been very hard for me to keep things short and simple. My mind is way overactive for that.



> I mean, it is a religious document open to interpretation


Actually no it's not. 
That is the idea that makes people think it is OK for there to be many different religions and different paths to the same God.

The bible is very clear about how we should be serving God and living our lives. It is not open to interpretation. Either the bibles teaching is being followed or not. I will not disagree that the bible is being interpreted differently by different people but my point is that the bible is not open to interpretation. Most "interpretations" are simply lies that are not actually backed up by anything the bible says. When it comes to serious issues in the bible, the bible is always very, very clear.

For example.
1Co 10:14
Therefore, my beloved ones, flee from idolatry.

That is a very clear bible teaching. 
The bible says that Idolatry is wrong, over and over again.

But what will you find in many religions?




































Those are very clearly Idols that are used in worship. There are hundreds of examples of idol worship in this world.

Is this because the bible is not clear about the teaching that Idolatry is wrong?

No.
The bible is very clear about it's teachings.

It says "flee from idolatry".

It also says this. 
Matthew 4:10
Then Jesus said to him: ?Go away, Satan! For it is written, ?It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.

So it should be clear that any confusion that has been created about what the bible teaches is all based upon lies. The bible is always very clear about how we should be worshiping God and how we should be living our lives.

Here is more information about Idolatry if you want to learn more.
http://watchtower.org/e/20050508a/article_01.htm

The bible leaves out any room for interpretation. 
It makes it very clear as to what is right and what is wrong.

Sorry again Angel_Ariel if I am making my posts to long and complicated.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> Honestly, what puts me off the Watchtower ideas...and many others, is this concept of damnation. I believe I will suffer if I what I do has a bad effect on others, but not that by default I am going to hell and I must redeem myself. I could imaging an after life in keeping with what I did wrong, perhaps, but not some massively disproportionate punishment. I'll tell you why that is. When I was growing up, I was by default treated like a pig, and through that experience I came to believe that the belief was incorrect and that my soul was good. Maybe that is arrogant? I believe it would be a sin against a God if I did not believe this, in actual fact, because I would be causing myself and others to suffer further, though my actions. Beliefs about ourselves are powerful as well as actions. So anyway, those are my 2 cents on why I'm not joining the Jehovah Witnesses and why I am also perplexed that you go on calling yourself Lost even when you are keenly religious.


I named myself "lost" because of the way I often feel in this world. I feel as if I have gotten lost in this universe and landed myself on bizzaro world or something.

I am not really sure what you mean when you use the word damnation but I think your problem is that you just don't know what the Jehovah's Witnesses teach about death.

The bible says that their is no knowledge or wisdom or anything else in death, "hell", "sheol" or "gehenna". The bible also says that when you die, you simply go back to the ground. From dust to dust, from dust you are and to dust you will return.

The bible talks figuratively about a burning hellfire but it also talks about tossing hell into another hellfire. The fire is a symbol of destruction and it is very fitting because there is not anything that survives a very intense fire. The bible talks about tossing "Hell" into the "Lake of fire" because that shows the destruction of Hell itself. That will mean the end of death. The "lake of fire" will destroy death itself so that nobody will ever have to worry about dieing ever again and at that point, everyone that is dead will lose the possibility of being brought back to life. Their destruction will be eternal at that point.

The bible also points out very clearly that death is the payment for our sins. 
Ro 6:23
For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.

After we are dead then there is nothing more that is required as payment for our sins.

It is not pleasing to God to torment people.

The bible says that God is love. 
The teaching that God torments people for an eternity is in conflict with what the bible says.

Here is a little more info about hell and about the history of the false teachings dealing with hell.
Pg 1 http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/200 ... cle_01.htm
Pg 2 http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/200 ... cle_02.htm


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> What do you think God is?


De 10:17
For Jehovah YOUR God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the God great, mighty and fear-inspiring, who treats none with partiality nor accepts a bribe,

Psalms 83:18
That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,
You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

Re 19:6
And I heard what was as a voice of a great crowd and as a sound of many waters and as a sound of heavy thunders. They said: ?Praise Jah, YOU people, because Jehovah our God, the Almighty, has begun to rule as king.

Re 4:8
And as for the four living creatures, each one of them respectively has six wings; round about and underneath they are full of eyes. And they have no rest day and night as they say: ?Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is coming.?

Mark 12:29
Jesus answered: ?The first is, ?Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah

Isaiah 40:28,29
28 Have you not come to know or have you not heard? Jehovah, the Creator of the extremities of the earth, is a God to time indefinite. He does not tire out or grow weary. There is no searching out of his understanding. 29 He is giving to the tired one power; and to the one without dynamic energy he makes full might abound.

Jeremiah 10:10-16
10 But Jehovah is in truth God. He is the living God and the King to time indefinite. Because of his indignation the earth will rock, and no nations will hold up under his denunciation. 11 This is what YOU men will say to them: ?The gods that did not make the very heavens and the earth are the ones who will perish from the earth and from under these heavens.? 12 He is the Maker of the earth by his power, the One firmly establishing the productive land by his wisdom, and the One who by his understanding stretched out the heavens. 13 At [his] voice there is a giving by him of a turmoil of waters in the heavens, and he causes vapors to ascend from the extremity of the earth. He has made even sluices for the rain, and he brings forth the wind from his storehouses.

14 Every man has behaved so unreasoningly as not to know. Every metalworker will certainly feel shame because of the carved image; for his molten image is a falsehood, and there is no spirit in them. 15 They are vanity, a work of mockery. In the time of their being given attention they will perish.

16 The Share of Jacob is not like these things, for he is the Former of everything, and Israel is the staff of his inheritance. Jehovah of armies is his name.

De 32:3,4
3 For I shall declare the name of Jehovah.
Do YOU attribute greatness to our God!

4 The Rock, perfect is his activity,
For all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice;
Righteous and upright is he.

Sorry but I could keep going on and on answering this question.

If you want to really get to know who God is then you should read the book called "draw close to Jehovah". You can get a free copy of that book at any Kingdom Hall or from any Jehovah's Witness. That book goes into great detail explaining just about everything you might want to know about God.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2007)

Angel_Ariel said:


> MentallyIll said:
> 
> 
> > Positive thinking yeah got nothin to do wit super natural.
> ...


My biggest problem is people spreadin FALSE HOPE
GET THE IRONY IF YOU DONT UNDERSTAND COMMON SENSE UR LOST

Another thing LOSTONE who sets the logic? Well i f you hit me, I know thatll hurt so from I was 3 years old I understood that principle, whats hurts for me, hurts for you.
Bein a asshole wont give you loads of friends either... 
Treat people like you want to be treated, persoally this was clear to me at age 7 or somethin, many of u was maybe dropped on yuor head as babies and needed GOD to teach this I dno

And no, I dont follow shit, I made up my own mind, I was thauht GOD was allmighty ruler of the universe and many of my friends and teachers meant the same, as a youn kid I ffigured fuck this retarded bellief I dont answer to a cartoon character

If ANYONE wants to understand the delusion and problems with religion and faith

Watch these GREAT documentaries and tell me HOW THE FUCK you ignore the obvious:

*Root of All Evil?: The Virus of Faith*

Dare to watch these and tell me is religion so good, ad see how easy gatherings in churches just get HYPED UP so think GOD almighty is touchin u. ITS ALL PSYCHOLOGIAL
Religious eople is like drugaddicts/drunks CONSTANTLY in denial.
Even if all the priests in the word said "well its all a scam "GOD DOES OT EXIST" you'd still follow.
Actually theres been done tests on this with false Gurus and preachers even after their made up God is exposed the people still believe
Just look at scientology LOL

Now that you have lost your faith yo might be feeling down, supid and betrayed, but don't its NOW that REAL life starts

Have a laugh at the delusion with George Carlin:

*George Carlin on religion*


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> but don't its NOW that REAL life starts


What real life?

In your own words you are a dead man.

What life?

Your eventuality is death and you are happy with that. That is the reality you have made up for yourself. So I believe that you are the one that is living in a bit of a delusion. You are saying that your eternity is going to be death but you believe that your eternal death is "real life"

This is backwards and delusional thinking.

If you believe that there is no God and you are set in your ways then there is not point in me arguing that point with you.

I do hope you realize that the life you are living is a total unreality though because very soon you will be dead and everything you are doing right now will mean nothing for the rest of eternity. I can understand why you seem to be such an angry person. Watching you accept death as your reality and then turn around and tell people that you are living the "real life" makes me feel very sad for you.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2007)

How is facin reality delusion.
WE OT NO MOTHERFUCIN EVIDENCE OF A AFTERLIFE

Your memories, personality, consciousness (YOU) IS IN YOUR PHYSICAL BRAIN, when it dIES YOU CEEASE TO EXIST - deal with it.
There is o eternnity what the fck makes yo so important you got eternal life

Atheist understand you got ONESHOT at life, USE IT. at the end of yor life l die and become nothinand have dedicated yor life to aa fantasy

Show me a shred of evidence of the afterlife : NOOOOOOOOOOONE

NDE : brain hallucinating proven scientifially 3232 times
Speakin to the dead : HAHA fraud


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> Show me a shred of evidence of the afterlife


The same evidence that proves that you exist now is the evidence that I would use to prove you can continue existing.

The proof that life is possible for you is self evident.

You are living.

The power that created your life in the first place is the same power that can bring you back to life once you have died. You are living the proof.

The power of God is proven to you each day that you are alive. You simply do not wish to pay attention to that proof. You ask me for proof and I simply show you yourself. You yourself are the proof. You did not just pop into existence all of a sudden. You are here because of God's creative power. Your proof is beating inside your chest all day long. Why is it that you do not find it hard to believe that your heart is not going to suddenly stop beating? Why are you able to go on living and enjoying life and not needing to worry all the time that each heartbeat will be your last one? Think about that. You put faith into God's power all the time, you simply choose not to put faith in God himself.

Eventually if you keep going on telling yourself that there is no God then there will be no God for you and your heart will stop beating one day and you will not find God coming to your rescue to restart that heart.

Your eventuality will be death so why do you care to waist any time at all talking about religion or God or anything like that if you really believe that your eventuality is death?

Your reality and belief is nothing. It is death, darkness and a great void that will never end. So why are you wasting your time on a spirituality support thread? The only thing I can think is that your own beliefs make you very angry and so you take that anger out on anyone that is putting their faith in God.

If your faith is in death then how can you possibly be of help to anyone here?

There is much more to life then death. Us humans were made for a reason. We were made so that we could live life and enjoy being alive. If you are going to put your faith in death then I do not even see the point in eating or breathing or anything like that. I would just go outside and dig myself a hole to lay in for the rest of eternity. There is not much point in doing anything else if your logic is death. Thats just how I would feel if I believed that death is the outcome and eternity for the entire human race.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2007)

livin proof OF evolution nothin else
Who made me? MY MOOM

NO MIRACLE

o wat yo want ur wastin ur short spark of consiousness

You are obviously retarded

Who said I put faith in death thats the opposite of what I said.
If know death is the end, WHAT DOES THAT SAY: LIVE EVERYDAY TO THE FULLEST DONT COUNT ON ANOTHER LIFE.

And what death is not void for eternity, there wont be a you to experience world oes on, or consciousness cease to exist so there wont be an consciosness to experience void


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> livin proof OF evolution nothin else


People do not evolve out of nothing.

That is a simple scientific fact.

Nothing is nothing and it will always be nothing because it is nothing.

Where did the universe and the humans and all this stuff come from?

Think about it.

Nothing is the only thing that can evolve out of nothing, it is that simple.

If you do not understand that then I don't see the point in paying anymore attention toward you at all.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2007)

No one said it evolved out of nothin you remind me of that jerk wannaabe christian Haggard

you obviously dont kow ANYTHING about evolution so you cant argue.
I gave you 3 great documentaries who tae a closer look, their entertaining wheter you believe or not.

You dont dare to watc cause itll tear your bible apart

and yeah by the way im sorry if Im offensive but my life and DP/DR has made me this way

still i blieve death is the end and if it was me or my girl or anyone I loved as high Id sacriefice my life for theirs any second a christian doin the same isnt noble he's just oin to heaven either way while an atheist doin somethin like that really loves

and christians sick as fuck or dyin I would never argue with cause I wouldnt tae away their hopes of bettter days

and talkin to chritsians about evolution remind me of arguin with cops on cannabis its a dead end they WONT listen no matter what


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## Anla (May 1, 2007)

that keeps me here.

People have had visions and written about them. They say, and it makes sense to me:

God creates the spirits, the souls. We all have free will. We decide what our mission will be. We come to earth to fulfill that mission. After our mission is fulfilled, we are able to return to be with God.

When we are with God, we are in God's light and warmth. We are sharing that light and warmth with those around us.

So, as much as we stay with God here on earth, we stay in the light and warmth, and share that with those around us.

When we move away from God, or others around us move away from God, the cold and darkness messes up our lives.

I got into a situation where the cold and darkness messed my life up horribly. But I did not die, so I will stay here and try to fulfill my chosen mission. And I will continue to try to live in God's light and warmth, even though I no longer feel it.

Jabez's prayer--In Chronicles: God, bless me indeed. Increase my territory for you. Keep your hand on me. Keep me from evil. Help me to do no harm. And I add, And please keep evil away from me.
Amen

Anla


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> No one said it evolved out of nothin


MentallyIll You can't believe in God and not believe in God at the same time.

Either EVERYTHING (including all the natural laws of the universe) evolved out of NOTHING, or God created everything.

It takes "blind faith" to believe that this universe just all of a sudden evolved out of nothing. That is really a very creepy idea to me. And I often wonder why other beings and planets and matter and new laws of the universe are not popping up all around us all the time because of this God called "evolution out of nothing" What makes this God of evolution so orderly? I would expect much more chaos from such a God.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2007)

and to give u another example from a tiny seed comes a whole fuckn tree why cant the universe have started the same way?

LOOK at humanity we have not evolved? 
We used to live in caves using sticks n stones to light fire ad hunt animals
to day we live in luxurie buildings hundreds of feet in the air, get food from a store, etc

ur a stupid retard if ur ignoring that fact..

While you deny science u use it 24/7 365/year

Just answer me this: if God wast real, would you still waste ur life obeying the delusion?

Seems to me that u suffer from this: 
with no divine - beauty is suddenly ugly
with no soul - people is worthless to you
with no God - you want to be a pedophile serial killer
with no Afterlife - you want to end this one
with no bible - logic and morals dont exist to you

true why am I arguin retards

NO ONE SAID IT EVOLVED OUT OF NOTHIN READ ABOUT BIGBANG THEORY PLEASE


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

MentallyIll

:?:

Whatever


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2007)

you are a stupid motherfucker seriously

who won this arguement? id say me cause I can argue U ANT DO SHIT u just quote a 2000 year old book written by someone who claimed they were God.

You are not a good human eing when u need a god to stay away from being a crazy serial killin asshole

Think of it like this:

GOD vs EVOLUTIOON

GOD gives us NO evidence , HES ALL POWERFUL if he wanted us to believe he could with ONE MOTHERFUKN ACTION like writin the whole bible in fire in the ocean without oil or anythin else
Turn the sky green , reinarnate as Jesus and heal all illnesses
BUT HE DONT

Evolution CONSTANTLY proves itself

whos to trust, anyone NON brainwashed above age 5 would say evolution

and since u claim to be a openminded freethinker:

What would convince you of evolution?

For me to believe in God all I need is ONE evidence


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> For me to believe in God all I need is ONE evidence


1. The entire universe and everything in it.

And to respond to everything else you just said.

All I can say is.

LOL LOL LOL :lol:

I am not arguing about anything. So if you were arguing then I guess you have won the argument. I am simply trying to teach someone something.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2007)

ur borin how can u say "EVERYTHIN IN IT" when EVERYTHIN IN IT points away from a God


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