# Oi!



## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Where has everyone gone? Homeskooled? Sebastian?

God forbid that you are well and have decided never to come back to this board. 8)


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Dear Martin, 
I know, I know. Your afraid your the only one left without a life. Well, fear not. Just kidding. I have one, but I still like to stop by. I try to limit my time, because it can sometimes be a bit morbid here , for the obvious reason that many people on here are depressed, but its an addiction and a bit of a guilty pleasure.

I havent had the internet for weeks now, as I've been traveling across the United States. My trip was covered on the news because I was seeking clean air to find health for myself, and a control group for my book. I ended up staying in Kalispell, Montana for 3-4 weeks, then traveling south through Salt Lake City (very pristine city), Las Vegas (suprisingly good air quality), and ending my trip on the Pacific Ocean, in Santa Barbara. There I checked out Santa Barbara Westmont, a christian college which is on the same road as Oprah Winfrey and Gene Hackman's house, but I found the kids there to be too priveliged and much shallower than my fellow students at the Franciscan University of Steubenville. I felt that God had told me to transfer to an evangelical school, because while there is truth in Catholicism, its purposes have been usurped by loads and loads of legalism, and God despises that. I still use the Sacraments, but I stay away from the Catholic/pharaseeical view of God. I beleive God uses whatever churches will listen to him, and that the most important thing to Him is that we _trust_ Him, and feel secure in Him to provide for us and our happiness. This means having a relationship, and evangelicals excel at this. Its true that they tend towards the superstitious because they have almost no cohesive train of logical thought about God, but I dont think I'll be suffering from that.

Last time I saw my parents before I left for Montana, they had called the cops on myself for allowing my girlfreind to sleep in my car outside their home, rather than allowing her to stay at a homeless shelter. Such an incredible shame. I dont think I'll be seeing them much anymore - they spoke to me on the phone, and even invited me to my Mother's birthday! What's a birthday except a celebration that someone is in your life? Somehow I dont feel that I should be celebrating my parent's presence in my life at this time....maybe for a long time. I had many, many adventures in Montana, but the most harrowing occurred just before I arrived back in Ohio. My ticket left a bus station from Bozeman, Montana, but I needed a ride from Kalispell to there. So friend of mine in Kalispell told me her boyfriend could take me. Great. Now, I usually spend time around loads of people that society would call "rejects", "lower-class", and even "dangerous" and most certainly "poor" - but I always find out that these people are mislabeled and misjudged. This was probably the most evil man I have ever met, period. His girlfreind had told me that he was going to jail for life, but that he had been unfairly pinned with his latest crime. For the record, I've never heard anyone say that they actually "did" something they go to jail for - its almost always denial, so my ears pricked up. But supposedly it was just a barfight, and it was his third violent offence, so the three-strikes law was taking effect, and his most lenient sentencing would have to be 25 years. Well, I had six hours in the car with this man, and it was seven hours too many. Evidently the DA had trumped up his barfight charge from a misdemeanor to a felony for good reason - he's been a contract killer for years. He's a drug middleman, who runs drugs from cartels to drug dealers. He doesnt do the dirty work of selling himself. He then shoots those who have a negative balance, and is hired for hits. Supposedly his record is flawless, and he's only 30. He's also incredibly unhappy, lonely, and probably possessed. He said he has memory lapses where he is incredibly violent. His dark path in life stems from his being disowned by his alcoholic stepfather after his mother died when he was something like 18. After this he made his first drug run, made lots of cash, and his only ethics became the code of theives - sheild your fellow criminals from harm, dont snitch, kill snitches, rule people with fear, be evil to those who are evil to you, be nice to people who are nice to you - unless they get in your way or have something you want. He absolutely hates the government, so we railed on bureacracy together for a while. I even helped the man load his truck with his belongings when we got to Bozeman, and when he angrily said he should kill the guys who turned him in, I told him not to , for his and their own sake. He doesnt need any more of this darkness in his soul. I seemed to calm him a bit. Of course, he begged my last 35 dollars off of me for gas at the end, which felt really exploitive, and I hear he went back to be with his girlfreind in Kalispell, and complained to her family that I only paid him 10 dollars! Honestly, it just goes to show that true masculinity and boldness are of God. If you have to lie to people about a guy like me just to get sympathy, you are more insecure and childish than you are willing to admit, even if you are a hitman. Still, I wish him spiritual healing.

As for you and your psychic gift, Martin, you already know that something is going on which doesnt fit logically into your Life Hypothesis. You continually say that the burden of proof is on people to disprove something which has evidence behind it. For instance, because you do not beleive that the existence of things is ample proof that God exists, but rather only evidence that _things _exist, the burden of proof is the religious to come up with proof of the Divine's existence. Now, Kant would disagree with you, and God is much too ever-present and large to give proof of - He makes his attribute known through things, but he only speaks to us in our hearts, when we know how to listen in silence. Proving his own existence has no hold on Him - he isnt concerned with this in the least. He is far too busy helping those who claim they need proof, in subtle ways that they refuse to see, and not-so-subtle ways that they rationlize away. But He's always around, working like a patient Father, not angry or miffed at yours or anyone's lack of beleif, but I think, rather, sometimes very amused and many times very concerned about how lost you feel. He wants everyone's life to come to complete fulfillment and fruition. You now have proof that you know things that cannot be known through normal channels or communication or deductive reasoning. You have evidence of something surpassing the natural, for which there are ancient and tested explanations. Because there are large bodies of oral and written testimony, across cultures, also speaking of your experiences, the burden of proof is now on YOU to produce evidence that ghosts, souls, and the spiritual do not exist. You need to honestly apply your reasoning to yourself now.

You do not like to entertain this notion, for the obvious reason that it scares you. This knowledge threatens to annhilate a part of you, or so you think. Rather, it can bring life to an area of yourself that _you_ have attempted to annhilate. You can actually receive wisdom, love, and direction from God. You can, of course, also be drawn towards the occult, the spiritual forces arrayed against life. Your gift is neither good nor bad - it is simply that, a gift, freely given. You dont see things that arent there, but rather things that ARE there that others are not so finely attuned to - but that most human beings intrinsically assume do exist. I happen to have a gift. I can sense people's hearts when I am near them - where the good is in them, where the bad is, how much evil there is, how dangerous the person is. Because of this, and the fact that I am also an acute observer of faces, I can tell what people are feeling long before they tell me. I also know psychological types, and this also helps me to gauge the character and behaviour of people within seconds of meeting them. When I enter rooms, I can sometimes sense good or evil, but ALWAYS when I am around people. I can tell you from personal experience, and from knowing exorcists, that rooms get exceedingly cold when evil is in a room, whether it is in a person or it is there from something which happened there ages ago. The convict who I rode with made rooms exceedingly cold when he was in them. Two houses I have been in with disturbances would also get routinely cold when the disturbances occurred. I have seen people healed of physical ailments simply from people praying over them about spiritual problems. I have, myself, felt things leave me during prayers sessions, and immediately my headaches, stomachaches, and liver pains would get better. I am beginning to think that all physical illness has a spiritual component, period. If you want your leukemia to improve Martin, conduct a simple experiment. Go to your local Catholic Church and sit in front of the tabernacle for an hour, preferrably during exposition of the blessed sacrament. Either way is fine, though. Sit up front, where you can look at it, and speak to God. I dont care what you say. Just give him your attention. I guarantee you that you wont be able to adequately explain why you'll feel _physically_ better when you leave, but you will. The longer you sit there, the better. If you can stand it for 2 or 3 hours, do that. Tell God how much your life sucks, make up arguments for why religion is stupid, why He doesnt exist - He doesnt care. Prayer is not the act of speaking flowery language to God that we dont mean. Meanwhile, he'll be tinkering away at you, making you feel healthier and happier very slowly. My health gets dramatically better every time I do this. I just sit. I dont pray. Sometimes I do. I just sit, say hi, talk, ask for things, and wait for healings. Thats it. Its incredibly low key. Things will leave me - the feeling is like large weights being lifted from my liver or my head. Sometimes it feelings like something weighing me down will physically be lifted from my shoulders, and I'll snap up in my seat. My pains always stop...its like I'm leaving things behind me when I leave. Its at once subtle and dramatic. I dont care how crappy the Catholic Church's understanding of God is - He's in Communion, the Eucharist. But you dont need to receive Him - just sit in front of Him. If you pass up this opportunity- which is completely free, mind you, and takes absolutely no committment or work - to get rid of your anxiety and leukemia, well, your crazy.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

i asked after you when you went awol martin, now damn well ask after me!!!!

ah narcissism!


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Homeskooled said:


> I am beginning to think that all physical illness has a spiritual component, period.


Agreed 

Spiritual, emotional and mental problems all eventually filter down through the layers and manifest in the physical body. Find out what the illness means and you find the way to heal from it.

This will definately be foreign to you Martin, since you seem bent on denying meaning. But if you're willing, you may find some answers 

P.S. I am jealous of your gift


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Bloody hell. I thought I had an eventful life Homeskooled. And, incidently, I am currently engaged in a new one - I have a got a well paid job in Cambridge, as a Senior QA Engineer, with a nice bunch of people, and a delightful (despite being Australian!) girlfriend. Travelling is a bit of a pain, two hours on the train, each way, for the princely sum of 97 pounds a week. But hopefully I'll be moving down here soon. It's a great city, and I know it well. I spent six years here working for a bio-tech company before I left for Amsterdam and my slow self-implosion.

Sorry to hear about your trouble with your parents. My psychological welfare is almost entirely dependent on my fantastic mother. However, I have severed contact with my sister, who, incidently, is a born again 'christian', of some demonination that I cannot fathom. The reason being that, unbeknown to me, she has been in contact with my psychopathic father for at least 10 years. She has 'forgiven' him for ruining our lives as a child. But she won't forgive me for being a psychological mess. It's a disgusting weakness apparently. Her hypocrisy is incredible. She had an abortion in her teenage years, but according to her religious doctrination, she will be forgiven by her god, but unfortunately the unborn child has to go to hell, or at least purgatory. She is comfortable with that. Astonishing. It makes me feel physically sick, literally. I've also got a bit of a problem with my mothers partner. Although he is generally a decent man, the way he talks to my mother (last night he told her to f-off) fills me with unspeakable rage. It's just how my father spoke to her. I manage not to say anything - for my mothers sake, but it's extremely difficult to restrain myself. At these times he's a loutish oaf, and because I love my mother more than life itself, I shake with murderous rage. But what can I do? Nothing. Anyway...



> As for you and your psychic gift, Martin, you already know that something is going on which doesnt fit logically into your Life Hypothesis


Not really. First off, I don't believe it is 'psychic' at all, in any way paranormal. As I've said before, I just think it is something we don't understand yet - much the same as we thought that lightening was the wrath of god in ancient times. Now we know better. I don't know what it is, but, I don't jump to paranormal conclusions. Why should I? Because I know, as far as one can, that there is no afterlife, spirits, ghosts, I assign it to my 'don't know' pile, and try and make some quasi-educated guesses. I think that it is probably a combination of hightened perception, good guess work, or some subliminal mumbo-jumbo that I pick up on. But it doesn't bother me. I don't fear it, just because I don't know the cause of it.



> Now, Kant would disagree with you, and God is much too ever-present and large to give proof of


Really? I thought all six of Kant's 'proofs' have been refuted. The clearest explaination of this that I've found, it not in a dusty old book on philosophy, but in a novel by Mikhail Bulgakov (The Master and the Margarta). In anycase, Kant's conclusions have been ground into dust by such intellectual luminaries such as Hume. But, as is our differing wonts, we choose to agree with those philosophers that fit our belief systems, whether you like it or not. I myself am rather dubious of any philosophical proof, because in almost all cases (except, perhaps, mathematical philosophy) they can be countered by another. Still, I'm more of an adherent to existential philosophy, such as Satre and Camus.



> He makes his attribute known through things, but he only speaks to us in our hearts,


You see, this is what I don't understand. You say the words, I hear it, but it means nothing. You are starting from a consenus that 'he' exists. And that 'he' makes his 'attributes' known through 'things'. In our 'hearts'?. This is very appealing, but I thought the heart was a muscle that pumps blood around the body. The same heart that almost every living creature on the planet has. An organ that has evolved through natural selection. Or are you alluding to a metaphysical heart? Sorry, but before I even begin to contemplate this, you have to flesh out what exactly you mean. Otherwise, it's just words and an appeal to sentimentality. And I can see that coming a mile off. I've been bombarded by such religious whimsy all my life, and it just strengthens my belief that it is just that - whimsy.



> Because there are large bodies of oral and written testimony, across cultures, also speaking of your experiences, the burden of proof is now on YOU to produce evidence that ghosts, souls, and the spiritual do not exist. You need to honestly apply your reasoning to yourself now


The burdon of proof is on me? How do you figure that one? This large body of oral and written testimony that you speak of - is it the same testimony that we read in Sunday Newspaper magazines, such as 'My dead husband makes love to me every night - SHOCK!'. Testimony written by people who experience the same thing as I do, but, for their own personal reasons, jump to paranormal conclusions. No way. There are a thousand and one possible, natural reasons for these seemingly paranormal experiences. Perhaps they are caused by a cluster of different things, much like Schizophrenia is thought to be a combination of several mental disorders, and not a single disease. Much less romantic, and much less appealing to intellectual vanity or sentimentality, but as sure as black is black, nothing, NEVER, has been proved to be paranormal in nature. So, the burdon of proof is back on those who ascribe to paranormal conclusions. It's an intellectual cop-out and a real shame. Thankfully, more and more people are (even if they keep their faith) are recognising the, frankly, absurdity of paranormal 'explainations'.



> You do not like to entertain this notion, for the obvious reason that it scares you


You see, here we go again. You have just reinforced my belief regarding the indication of religious belief - fear. It is the religous who are afraid, of things that they think are incomprehensible, so they wrap themselves in a warm shroud of religion. It's human nature - or rather, a disappointing reminent of cave man mentality that has hung around like a soiled diaper on the human mind. A tiny scar on our intellectual contentment. Much like congenital herpes. I am not afraid of my 'psychic' ability, for the reasons I stated above. I am not afraid of the possibilty of there being a god, because I simply don't believe it. It's not that, neccessarily, that I don't want to, but to me it's as reasonable to me as a flying bananna. This is a blunt, tired old tool Homeskooled, that the religious use to bash away at us non-believers. And frankly, it's laughable.



> I can tell you from personal experience, and from knowing exorcists, that rooms get exceedingly cold when evil is in a room, whether it is in a person or it is there from something which happened there ages ago. The convict who I rode with made rooms exceedingly cold when he was in them.


Interesting. So why do you, again, automatically assume that these experiences are paranormal in nature? Why not psychological? These experiences can be induced by any manner of biological mechanism - epilepsy, for example. I'm not saying that you are not finely tuned to a persons psychological aura, in fact, most people are to one degree or another, but why the instictive jump into the paranormal cess-pit?



> If you want your leukemia to improve Martin, conduct a simple experiment. Go to your local Catholic Church and sit in front of the tabernacle for an hour, preferrably during exposition of the blessed sacrament


Now that's just silly. At the risk of repeating myself, there is absolutely no evidence, whatsoever, that religous intevention can help with any form of psychologial or biological complaint. None. I'm not, however, completely disregarding the concept of mind over matter in such cases, but it certainly hasn't anything to do with your god. And it's dangerous talk. Not to me, because it washes off me like water off a ducks back, but to those who are psychologically vunerable, it gives them false hope, and deters them from real, scientific, medical help. Dangerous words, and this is yet another reason why I believe that religion has no place here.



> Meanwhile, he'll be tinkering away at you, making you feel healthier and happier very slowly


Why me? A miserable sinner, yet comfortable enough to enjoy the luxury of prayer. Why doesn't he help the poor and starving instead? I think the answer to that is because those who pray and recover, are comfortable and wealthy enough to afford that luxury, while still having access to conventional medical help. I thought the meek are going to inherit the earth? A quick flick through the newspapers, a trip to Dafur, will counsel otherwise.


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Dear Martin, 
Well, that sounds lovely! Really, Cambridge IS a nice city from everything I read. Great intellectuals there. I hope to go for a semester to Oxford sometime. A buddy of mine was a Rhodes scholar, and while I'm not going to apply for something as prestigous or snobby, I may make it over there. Traveling sounds awfully time consuming and expensive. I think they say that the English have the longest commutes in the world. I ran into some Londoners while on my layover in Las Vegas, in which I caught the Lance Burton Magic Show. I was thinking of visiting London in my travels, but you guys are considered the most expensive city on earth.....how did London end up there? I'd figure somewhere with an outlandish form of government or incredible inflation, like Moscow. But nope, according to a huge human resource consulting firm, its London.



> Sorry to hear about your trouble with your parents.


I know, so am I. I have this feeling that God wants me to forgive, and so I'm working on that. My mind is a bit like a steel trap, though - I remember everything people do/say, good or bad, so its easy for me to keep a sort of subconscious grudge for long periods of time. Your Mom sounds like a lovely person, but drawn to men with the same character traits. They all sound like they have a false 'machismo' that they think being a man is about. Those are the only men I find talking like that to women. As for your sister, you should pity her. Because of the incredibly strong bond which nature has fashioned between a woman and her born or unborn child - and this bond is both natural and spiritual, as all bonds in life are - the people who suffer most from an abortion are usually the mothers, if you disclude the baby itself. The hormones have all done their job in preparing a woman to be a mother - the bones change, the skin becomes more elastic, oxytocin bonds them more to their husband and their unborn. When this is ripped asunder, it doesnt matter what one _beleives_ about abortion. A feeling of indescribable loss often overwhelms the woman, coupled with guilt. Its called post-abortion syndrome, and it can play with a woman's mind for years. I've seen eighty year old women, who had abortions in the 50's, still crippled by guilt and a sense of loss. We see this too with miscarriages, although without as much guilt. And guilt is one of the devil's old standby tools, as you correctly assumed when you said how you despise fear. So does God. To ease their pain, many women sink into deep depressions. Some fall into abusive relationships with men, because they dont beleive they deserve better. Perhaps this is why she talks to your father. And some of them gravitate towards fundamentalist religion with its quick and many times skewed answers. Yes, I'm sure God has forgiven her. I dont think he wants her to feel guilty or suffer. No, I'm sure her child is with God, feeling the same way. No, I dont think the child is suffering because it is unbaptised. Even John the Baptist said one would come after him who would baptise in the Spirit rather than water. God is bound by, but not to, his sacraments. He honors them, but can work in whatever manner His Love sees necessary to ease pain and save souls. Especially the pain of your sister and the soul of her child. In my own opinion, God depises the theological "limitations" we ascribe to Him. When you see your sister, instead of seeing her skewed views and poor relationship choices, try to possibly see the pain behind them. Poor choices almost always stem from pain. At least she has found a way to forgive herself, however imperfect it may be. Forgive her and look beyond these things, and in time you may just find that she comes around, and you've both learned something about the nature of Love, forgiveness, and the uselessness of fear and guilt.



> Not really. First off, I don't believe it is 'psychic' at all, in any way paranormal. As I've said before, I just think it is something we don't understand yet - much the same as we thought that lightening was the wrath of god in ancient times. Now we know better. I don't know what it is, but, I don't jump to paranormal conclusions. Why should I? Because I know, as far as one can, that there is no afterlife, spirits, ghosts, I assign it to my 'don't know' pile, and try and make some quasi-educated guesses. I think that it is probably a combination of hightened perception, good guess work, or some subliminal mumbo-jumbo that I pick up on. But it doesn't bother me. I don't fear it, just because I don't know the cause of it.


Martin, throw out your preconceived notion that I am trying to "talk you out" of being an atheist. I'm not. I'm commisserating with another comment you yourself made in a different post, same day, that these sorts of things are making you increasingly uncomfortable because they may force you look at possibilities about the existence of the afterlife/spirits that you are afraid to see (and I also beleive you used the word afraid, although my computer is too slow to go back to your thread and check). Heightened perception doesnt tell you one iota about things that happened ages ago, and from the sounds of the cold room, are _still_ happening. You claim to be scientific about this, but you arent, because you are ruling out certain possibilities due to extreme prejudice. If you want to be scientific, you have to entertain all possibilities, not the ones you like, or you'll be guilty of the same cherry-picking you accuse the religious of.



> Really? I thought all six of Kant's 'proofs' have been refuted. The clearest explaination of this that I've found, it not in a dusty old book on philosophy, but in a novel by Mikhail Bulgakov (The Master and the Margarta). In anycase, Kant's conclusions have been ground into dust by such intellectual luminaries such as Hume. But, as is our differing wonts, we choose to agree with those philosophers that fit our belief systems, whether you like it or not. I myself am rather dubious of any philosophical proof, because in almost all cases (except, perhaps, mathematical philosophy) they can be countered by another. Still, I'm more of an adherent to existential philosophy, such as Satre and Camus.


No proof is ever truly "refuted" in philosophy - you know this, Martin. This is why I, too, look at theology and philosophy as akin to mental masturbation. You run alot, but you never really arrive anywhere. Its not very scientific, because you dont really put anything to the test in reality. Which is why, of course, I'm always challenging you to put things to the test. No, I dont think its dangerous to tell you to try something that I've seen work. And no, I dont think my posts will anytime soon, be encouraging people NOT to seek medical help for, well, anything. I've actually been accused of being too clinical and too pro-med from time to time, and thats not the case at all. Rather I am for _integration_ of all aspects of the human character and the exclusion of none. It would seem a pity to me to have a mind like I do and not suggest plausible medical therapies, and it would also seem a pity to me to have a heart like I do and not point out that inner pain can cause that for which we seek medical therapies. Anger has been linked to heart disease, stroke, high blood pressure, and cancer in studies. Why not treat your anger, Martin, by going to the source of peace? Peace. When was the last time you basked in that? But if it would make you comfortable, for the good of everyone on this website, I will now issue a disclaimer : Before sitting in front of the Blessed Sacrament at your local Catholic Church, be sure to check with your service provider for any contraindications with medicines you may be taking or conditions you may have. Sitting in front of the Blessed Sacrament has been known to cause severe drowsiness, a feeling of lightness, and possible peace. As a general rule, people suffering from knee pain and general arthritis should not kneel, and men suffering from nagging partners should always consult them before attending. Use only as directed.



> You see, this is what I don't understand. You say the words, I hear it, but it means nothing. You are starting from a consenus that 'he' exists. And that 'he' makes his 'attributes' known through 'things'. In our 'hearts'?. This is very appealing, but I thought the heart was a muscle that pumps blood around the body. The same heart that almost every living creature on the planet has. An organ that has evolved through natural selection. Or are you alluding to a metaphysical heart? Sorry, but before I even begin to contemplate this, you have to flesh out what exactly you mean. Otherwise, it's just words and an appeal to sentimentality. And I can see that coming a mile off. I've been bombarded by such religious whimsy all my life, and it just strengthens my belief that it is just that - whimsy.


Yes, yes I am. You are starting from a consensus that "He" does not exist. Great. Does this prove anything? Were we all expecting something else? Do our personal opinions have anything to do with reality? I talk as if "He" exists, because evidence in my life is irrefutable. I obviously get healed alot when I'm prayed over. I get healthier when even I pray. When I have no money, its given to me. When I have no food, so is that. Look at my signature below my posts. Its the way I survive, including on cross-country trips. And these are just "cookies". Little miracles that arent necessary for my beleif, because I've gotten something far more difficult to put your finger on, or bottle, or even prove to someone that you have. I've received "peace beyond human understanding" and wisdom from God, when I've been deep in prayer. They've come to me when I havent known what to do, and I've felt chaotic inside. Health has come when I've been sick. These things didnt come from me, because all I can produce is chaos. They came from something greater than me that is filled with Love. This is where my posts come from, not from philosophy or "appeals to sentimentality". And you know me better than that, Martin. I am probably the most clinical human you are ever going to run across.

As for the "heart" of which I speak, I'm not looking at the body morphologically, as parts of an exterior, material, labeled machine. I'm looking at the body in the way Freudians do. There is no lobe of the brain labeled "ego". Its a function of many parts working together. So is the "heart". When I speak of the heart, I'm talking of the place inside you that is untouched by thoughts, and untouched by emotion. These are like waves in the ocean, and most people spend their entire lives on top of the ocean, complaining about the sea when their wave is on an downswing, and loving the sea as they ride the wave's upswing. But beneath them is hundred's of miles of water, and the further down you explore, the stiller the water is. The mind and emotions are the storms (both good and bad) that occur on the surface. But always, beneath all of that, is a quiet place where man and God meet. If you can learn to find it, you can survive the insanity of the surface. Its funny, when your touched by God there, it feels as if it IS somewhere around your gut, your breastbone. It will feel like your mind shuts down, and something settles on your head, and rests near your heart. I'm sure this is why the ancients ascribed spiritual significance to the heart. There is always truth in these things. Some of this experience occurs in the "spirit" of a human being, whatever part of us it is that seperates from us upon death, that you sense in rooms where people lived long, long ago. But there is also a component in the brain, I have no doubt. So I dont speak morphologically but rather functionally.



> Interesting. So why do you, again, automatically assume that these experiences are paranormal in nature? Why not psychological? These experiences can be induced by any manner of biological mechanism - epilepsy, for example. I'm not saying that you are not finely tuned to a persons psychological aura, in fact, most people are to one degree or another, but why the instictive jump into the paranormal cess-pit?


I can only speak from personal experience, and I just tend to notice that rooms get cold when there's evil there. Its not particularly important, because we really shouldnt give evil the time of day, but I just tend to notice that. As for the convict, it might just be a coinicidence. LOTS of rooms are cold in Montana this time of year, for obvious reasons.



> Now that's just silly. At the risk of repeating myself, there is absolutely no evidence, whatsoever, that religous intevention can help with any form of psychologial or biological complaint.


Well, if anyone was going to do a study on this, I guess it would be me. Really. Dont tempt me, man. The Blessed Sacrament is in every major city, and unimportant city, and every country in the world, because it fills some sort of need. As Indian medicine men would say, its "strong medicine". Oh, and there have been studies which linked psychological wholeness to intercessory prayer (which isnt what I'm talking about - praying oneself can be much more effective). Unsurprisingly, it was questioned by atheists _because_ it used psychological wholeness as a marker of health. Well shame on whoever thought that psychological wholeness is a scientific marker of health. Sheesh. Before you know it, these religious types will have depression classified as an illness....Other studies had mixed results. More people lived, more people died, etc....But none used praying oneself, and most importantly, just sitting before God waiting to be healed. That I'm aware of, no study has ever been conducted of the healing quality of the Blessed Sacrament. Not that one should need a study before one goes out and tries things. You dont wait for studies to try milk thistle for your liver. Only personal experience and ancedotal evidence spur you on to recommend Klonopin to others for DP. 
There isnt one conclusive study that says living your life will help DP to go away. But you still recommend it, and rightly so. So dont begrudge me the use of my personal experience and anecdotal evidence in recommending sitting in front of the Blessed Sacrament. You dont have anything to lose. Dont wait for a study. Regard it like you do all the other things you try without evidence. Throw caution, fear, and prejudice to the winds.



> Why doesn't he help the poor and starving instead?


I can once again tell you, from personal experience and anecdotal evidence, that he certainly helps the poor. I certainly qualify, as I recently stayed in a homeless shelter. I can also tell you that God provides for the hungry, and not just through charities, as the cynical may think. If you throw your trust recklessly on God, he pulls through. Why then do people die from other men's greed? Well, they die because of man and in spite of God. When we are truly needy for an example of why God doesnt care, we, who have never been to Africa, always throw it up as proof. See, innocent people dying of starvation. There isnt any excuse for why they are hungry or homeless - they arent alcoholics or drug addicts. But by doing this, we give proof of just how cynical we are, and we fall into the classical European mistake perpetrated on Africans - we use them for our purposes. We live our comfortable, well fed lives, and pull them up as proof that God doesnt exist when it suits our arguments or our fancy. But ask an African if they beleive in God - ask a starving African - and you find that faith is alive and well in Africa. And Joy. Their Masses are bright and beautiful, and strong, and teeming with people. So are their evangelical churches. And their Muslim Mosques. Why should we use starvation as an excuse to believe that God doesnt exist, when they themselves have hope? How , if these people pray to Him , do these thing happen to them? Well, for one, because of us. We, the Europeans, raped, pillage, colonized, and degraded that continent. We ground them into poverty, used them as slaves, and "own" their only sources of wealth. Diamond mines are not owned by Africans, although Africa has the richest deposits. Gold mines are not owned by Africans, although Africa has the richest depsosits. We provide their warlords with weapons that only Europeans have the technology to make. In Rwanda, the French assisted with the genocide. In the Sudan I am sure there is probably more European/French political agendas once again behind the civil war. Ethiopia, whose weather patterns have for centuries caused episodic drought, could easily be sent famine releif, if it werent for the fact that we really dont care, and war once again plays into the destruction of lives and supply deliveries. No, what is a wonder is not that God lets anyone die in Africa, but rather that everyone has not already died. People live because of God and in spite of man. Our free will is a terrible thing. We are allowed to make our bed and sleep in it, but God's mercy tempers it and our terrible mistakes. The travesties occuring in African arent proof that Africans dont love God, trust in Him, or receive His help. They are proof that WE dont love God, trust in Him, or receive his help. Starvation of the body is not the greatest suffering on earth. Starvation of the soul, of the human spirit, is.We have no wisdom, no love. When we Europeans do, we may just end up doing more good than harm in Africa, rather than what we currently do - cause problems and then throw temporary releif at them. And we may find out, as Mother Teresa of Calcutta said, that "God has no hands but ours".

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Hiya.

Yeah, Cambridge is a nice place. It's not quite as snobby and pretentious as Oxford, and a lot greener, but it's rather lacking in, let's say, new development. Trinity college basically owns Cambridge, and they block any new building proposals - especially if it's designated for any form of entertainment, such as Bars, Cinema's, Clubs, that sort of thing. So unless you are a student and a member of their secret champagne spanking societies, it's pretty lacking in stuff for the 'yoof'. Still, there are some fantastic, atmospheric pubs - such as The Eagle, above which Crick and Watson stayed when they discovered the double helix nature of DNA. Almost all the pubs in the centre (and it's a small city) have a history of learning attached to them.

You are absolutely right about the cost and time of transport in this country. Our rail network, when it's working, apart from being catastrophically expensive, is overwealming London-centric. So if you're lucky enough to live on a line that goes to or from London, then no problems, but if you dare to try and travel east or west, then except journeys of nightmarish complexity. A journey of perhaps 50 miles can take hours! And the cost of our public transport is a scandal. I really have no idea why this is the case. The strength of sterling, which I think it just about the strongest in the world at the moment, is no excuse. Economics aren't my strong point!

I don't want to reply to your post, regarding religion and the paranormal. Don't get me wrong, I've read it, as always, with great interest, but we just cannot agree, and we've been through it all before. As much as my repostes sound illogical and nonsensical to you, yours do to me, in this regard (and probably in this regard _only_). I respect your opinions, but catagorically do not agree with them. And please, believe me, it's not because of some kind of fear on my part even though I've said, as you've pointed out, that my experiences with 'psychic' phenomena have caused me to question some aspects of my non-belief system - these concerns (not fears) have been safely stowed away, and in anycase, I'm proud enough to say that when something that I do not understand and might possibly be in conflict with my world view, I am at least honest enough to ponder other possibilites, but again - the more I think about them, the more reasonable it seems to be anthing other than paranormal. I can't precisely say what, but unless someone shows me otherwise, and I experience it, it goes in the 'don't know what it is yet' pile. I am comfortable with not knowing. In fact, I am excited by it.



> As for your sister, you should pity her


I do, in a way. She is my sister after all. But I don't pity her for her actions, done in the name of her religion. Not at all. I'm furious at her. I am furious that she can 'forgive' my father, who to anyone with half a brain-cell is a classic case of an organised sociopath, yet cannot forgive other member of her family, my mother and myself included, for petty, minor misdemenours. I pity the fact that she is physically unwell (polycystic ovaries), grossly overweight, etc, but she has everything she has ever wanted. A reliable, loving husband, two fantastic children, a lovely home....etc.



> No proof is ever truly "refuted" in philosophy - you know this, Martin. This is why I, too, look at theology and philosophy as akin to mental masturbation.


This is true, but as a consequence, they become nothing much more than speculation. And I agree, your analogy with mental masturbation is spot on. But I find it curious that you stridently adhere to the mental masturbation of Aquinas, and so forth. I'm almost tempted to ask if mental masturbation in the Catholic church is as forbidden as the physical type! :wink: And if so, does the holy see forbid contraception for it? Oh hang on, I forget - they do. It's called the bible. 8) Sorry, couldn't resist.

Back to the psychic thing. I had a tarot reading yesterday, and my specific question was 'Am I really psychic?'. The answer was a resounding 'yes', which I didn't find suprising really. However I shut down when she said that she could see 'spirit' around me. I asked her how I should develop this 'gift', and she said that I didn't have to, I already had it. Really, my underlying question was 'how can I make money out of it'. Strangely for an atheist, I have moral doubts about 'charging' people for psychic readings, or whatever. I'm troubled that people, clairvouants or whatever, make money out of other peoples concerns. I say this because I don't think my 'powers' are exactly what people want to hear. Because I sometimes feel 'bad' things about people, living or dead, and they don't want to hear it. I've had experience of this. And I can't in full conscience lie to them, especially if they are paying for it. Anyway, I'm going to start up a website and see. I'm in the process of gathering recommedations and testimonials from the various people that I've encountered. Perhaps, if anyone does actually want to hear what I've got to say, then I'll just charge any travelling expenses.

Tee hee. An atheist, working in Computers, who moonlights as a sensitive/psychic. Dear me. No wonder I'm so troubled. :roll:

I think the thing is, to be honest, that I feel a creeping sense of age. Yes yes, I know I'm only 35, but compound this with leaukemia and my desperate, grabbing need for 'more' (albeit, somewhat tempered by Klonopin), I am desperate for new experiences, or rather, working for a living in something that I enjoy. I mean, really enjoy. I know this is what almost everyone wants out of life, but I just hope that my mild talents in writing fiction, or something else, can change my direction in life. Again, we'll see.


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Dear Martin, 


> I do, in a way. She is my sister after all. But I don't pity her for her actions, done in the name of her religion. Not at all. I'm furious at her. I am furious that she can 'forgive' my father, who to anyone with half a brain-cell is a classic case of an organised sociopath, yet cannot forgive other member of her family, my mother and myself included, for petty, minor misdemenours. I pity the fact that she is physically unwell (polycystic ovaries), grossly overweight, etc, but she has everything she has ever wanted. A reliable, loving husband, two fantastic children, a lovely home....etc.


Yes, it sounds like she is still suffering alot many years later. I wouldnt be surprised if she struggles with depression, and polycystic ovaries may or may not also be related. After an abortion the risk of breast cancer increases due to the natural hormone cycle being terminated. I wouldnt be surprised though, Martin, if both of you struggle with mental health issues. Only God can really take away your fury, but try to love her. Beleive me, I know its tough from my own family experience, but right or wrong doesnt matter - eventually someone has to turn the other cheek and end the cycle of emotional violence. Its certainly not a judgment call on my part saying any of her actions are noble or that they are your fault, but rather saying that you probably have great influence on your family and any goodness done by you will have far-reaching effects on everyone. I tend, as well, even though I am on the "outs" in my family, to be the trendsetter, the one who sets the tone for interactions. My girlfriend pointed this out, but even people who dont quote unquote "like me" still look up to me. Its an odd position to be in, my friend.



> This is true, but as a consequence, they become nothing much more than speculation. And I agree, your analogy with mental masturbation is spot on. But I find it curious that you stridently adhere to the mental masturbation of Aquinas, and so forth. I'm almost tempted to ask if mental masturbation in the Catholic church is as forbidden as the physical type! And if so, does the holy see forbid contraception for it? Oh hang on, I forget - they do. It's called the bible. Sorry, couldn't resist.


This was very witty, and I agree with most of it, Martin. I dont actually like Aquinas, I simply quote the passages that I DO like. He has absolutely no 'heart' - no mysticism in his writings. He was foolish enough to think he could capture the attributes of God on paper. No, mental mastubation is quite alive and well in the Catholic Church. It seems to be something we exceed all other religions in, actually. If it wasnt for the sacraments, I wouldnt stay here. Philosophy has no answers - its just a good way to confuse someone who has questions. Theology, on the other hand, can be quite damaging. Because God is far too large for any one human to ever get a handle on, the best way to know Him is through prayer. He reveals what each person needs to know. In the end, God is all about you. Not a Church, not your Mom, not your sister - he has things he wants each of us to hear individually. Unfortunately, if you look for Him in theology, your looking in the wrong place. The Summa Theologica was never completed by Aquinas, because God supposedly stopped its writing. Actually, this I absolutely agree with. Aquinas had a vision, and in it he saw that all of his writings were "like so much straw in the mouth of God". It seems that in the vision, God was devouring his writings as if they were straw. After that, he could not complete. Some say he was stricken with something. I think he wished to treat in volume four, virtue, as the previous had dealt greatly with sin. In other words, he was going to try to encapsulate God and virtue in words. It cant be done. It will all fall short.

As for the Bible, you should know this Martin, but us Catholics dont use it hardly at all. Thats one of the reasons evangelicals hate us so much. We've sort of scientifically, historically,and archeologically critiqued it, then taken teachings from it. I've read alot of the biblical research, which is I guess, why I cant take your railings against it very seriously. First of all, Catholics dont take it too seriously, but secondly, when we do, we're sort of scientific about it. When I say contextualize it, I dont mean with some subjective criteria I use, but I actually mean contextualize with the latest archeological/hermeneutic/historical data out there about the way it was written, by whom, about what. I think it is filled with human flaws that exactly reflect when and by whom it was written. That being said, it does in essence encapsulate salvation history (the history of first the Jews, good and bad, and then early Christianity) and so it is priceless. But we Catholics just dont view it as the Protestants do, and very few Catholics use it. If we do, we're really well studied in its context, so I think this is kind of why railings against the Bible dont really offend me. I understand it too well, and I'm not a literalist with it, as I dont really think people should be. It wasnt written to be taken literally most of the time. Other parts of it, like Leviticus, that were meant to be taken literally, are basically a code of hygiene for the Chosen People that kept them alive while the people around them were dying of parasite born diseases (such as from pork, lizards, and other unclean desert animals) , germs, and STDs. This is why you'll find loads of laws about staying away from women while they are menstruating and giving birth, and for several days afterwards. Anything having to do with communicable bodily fluids gets the first known quarantine in the book of Leviticus. Its genius, and if you dont beleive in divine inspiration, I dont know who the heck came up with these rules, because it ensured that they outlasted the pagan tribes around them. But attacking the Bible doesnt really attack the heart of my faith, or Catholicism (which is , sadly, based largely on theology and philosophy), for that matter, so I sometimes even find it amusing that your more Bible-based in your rantings than I am. :wink:



> Back to the psychic thing. I had a tarot reading yesterday, and my specific question was 'Am I really psychic?'. The answer was a resounding 'yes', which I didn't find suprising really. However I shut down when she said that she could see 'spirit' around me. I asked her how I should develop this 'gift', and she said that I didn't have to, I already had it. Really, my underlying question was 'how can I make money out of it'. Strangely for an atheist, I have moral doubts about 'charging' people for psychic readings, or whatever. I'm troubled that people, clairvouants or whatever, make money out of other peoples concerns. I say this because I don't think my 'powers' are exactly what people want to hear. Because I sometimes feel 'bad' things about people, living or dead, and they don't want to hear it. I've had experience of this. And I can't in full conscience lie to them, especially if they are paying for it. Anyway, I'm going to start up a website and see. I'm in the process of gathering recommedations and testimonials from the various people that I've encountered. Perhaps, if anyone does actually want to hear what I've got to say, then I'll just charge any travelling expenses.
> 
> Tee hee. An atheist, working in Computers, who moonlights as a sensitive/psychic. Dear me. No wonder I'm so troubled.


You realize that if you look up the word "oxymoron" in the 2006 Oxford English dictionary, the definition is "Martin Horton". Yeah, you've got conflicting personality traits.....Gonna have to explore more forks in the road than you want to, probably. Personally, I'd stay away from Tarot readings. Like I've stated before, I know that the spiritual exists. That means both good and evil. Tarot, is to mean, incredibly fallible, and prone towards the "bad" sort of divination. The same with oijua, or however the heck you spell it. And I dont really beleive that charging for it is probably the way to....it somehow seems "dirty". This is why I think "fortune-tellers" also tend towards the dark side.....Only God truly knows the future (which is different than your gift of sensing presence or past things) and many of them claim to have knowledge for a price. Stay towards what your gut tells you is noble, Martin, and pray a little that you use your gift for what it is intended for. Whatever the reason is that you have it, if you use it for that purpose, you will find greatness and fulfillment in it. If you dont use it for the God-given reason that you were given it, it will only drag you down and be cheapened. Pray a little. Ask and you shall receive.

As for your stories, send your short ones to a magazine. You will gain exposure quickly, which is what you need, because ones like Fish heads and Ambrosia are real gems. I have to go to Mass now, but I'll write more later.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

Martinelv said:


> Where has everyone gone? Homeskooled? Sebastian?
> 
> God forbid that you are well and have decided never to come back to this board. 8)


Actually, I was just lurking in the shadows...desperately waiting for someone to start a thread inquiring where I had been...all the while, marking the empty days that passed by carving a frequency chart at strategic locations on my skin, and of course, wallowing in an ocean of tears.

The rest of this thread looks interesting actually. Interesting and long. And unfortunately, i can't stay on here for very long right now.

I'll be resuming my regular forum viewing/posting habits in a few weeks. And i'll talk to you fine people then.

Mysteriously yours,

s.


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