# SPOOKY STUFF... psychic psycho



## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

i wasnt sure what forum this would fit best in.. maybe spiritual but i guess this is an ok place.

i picked up gav from the airport last night and later we had dinner then decided to take a walk downtown. it was around 10 pm... and since it was easter sunday the place was a ghosttown... well.. as far as regular humans go. for some reason there were a surprising number of wierdos and crackheads and creeps walking around. gav and i didnt say much to each other while on the walk.. just holding hands while gav smoked a ciggy. we passed alot of wierdos that harassed us a bit but we didnt say anything just kept walking, when up ahead of us came this guy. certianly not your average joe. young guy about maybe 20 years old... all dirty with his clothes all torn and he was talking to himself out loud. definately schitzo but the scary part was that he was walking exactly like something out of THE RING or NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD.

i was like HOLY SH!T. :shock: but we both put our heads down and kept walking. but then he wouldnt let us pass. he was laughing and talking to himself and staring at us. we had to snake around the guy and as we did his talking got louder and scarier but we kept going faster this time... and when we got about 30 feet from the guy he shouted "GAVIN!!"

we both froze in our feet and turned around and he was staring at us and smiling this insane smile and he yelled again "GAVIN!!!!!"

then he started coming after us!! we took off and eventually lost him but needless to say we were both really shaken. there is NO WAY that he could have known gavs name. we tried to figure out any way that he could have known it.. gav checked for his wallet.. it was there. he wasnt at the resturant or around us at any other time.. and i hadnt spoken gavs name at all that night not even at the airport cause we call each other by pet names of course not by our real names. there is NO WAY he could have known gavs name at all.

personally... i believe in demons. i believe there is alot of sh!t that cant be explained. i believe that (and im sure most will dissagree especially in here) schitsofrenics talk to ghosts and demons and other phenoms that we cant see. if anyone knows anything about necro and the paranormal.. then they can understand what im getting at. gav doenst believe in it and hes very logical.. but he was more shaken than i was. he tried to make every heads or tails out of the situation but always came up short. there was nothing that could explain it. :shock:


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2005)

Maybe he overheard you call gavin by his name, anyways that is some fucked up shit.


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## enigma (Feb 18, 2005)

Maybe he's a member and recognized Gavin from his avatar.

e


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2005)

hahahaha


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

Nah.....

My first immediate thought is that perhaps this man recognized your partner from several years ago, he might have known him once; I'm sure if it was dark and the man was a mess Gavin may not have recognized him back.

To posit that because of scenarios such as this "demons" or "spirits" must somehow speak to the mentally ill is to have one thought too many.

EDIT: Also check out the principle of Occam's razor. By that, it's much more plausible that the guy had seen or heard your partner elsewhere than that he can communicate with demons or spirits.


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

i highly doubt the guy was from england or knew gav from somewhere else. that is even more unlikely than a bird pooping the name gavin on his forhead. :roll: mind you i live in hawaii. an entire planet away from england. and it is very unlikely that this dude was in brighton recently and gav didnt know this guy at all. trust me we worked out every other option. im sticking to my story the way it is. there is NO WAY he could know it.


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

If Moses lived nowadays, no doubt he would be put away for saying a bush spoke to him. I beleive in schizophrenia as a physical brain disease. But I also beleive in the supernatural. I put in an earlier post that talking in dead languages and having access to hidden knowledge that they could not possibly know are signs in the Catholic Church of demonic possession. If these can be ruled in, and other diagnosises can be ruled out, I'd get a priest for that man before I'd give him Risperdal. Or maybe both at the same time. But the exorcist for pittsburgh beleives very strongly that while many of the mentally ill need a doctor, some need spirtuall intervention. This is why he always works closely with psychiatrists to differentiate the two. If a psychiatrist is weirded out then you KNOW someone's got problems. Pretty weird Sleeping.

Reminds me of a story the exorcist told....a woman came to him and said that she thought her mother was possessed. At odd times she would howl and scream and utter profanities. She was worried about her mom, and sprinkled her with holy water one day. Her mom started screaming "It burns! It burns!" Needless to say, it freaked the daughter out beyond belief. I thought that the exorcist's reply was pretty smart. He told her to take the holy water bottle ( they usually have a cross on them and a very distinctive look so that anybody who glances at the bottle knows it has holy water) and empty out all of the holy water, replacing it with tap water. Then go over to her mother's house and sprinkle her with it. The woman did just what he said, went over her mother's house, and sprinkled her with tap water from the distinctive looking holy water bottle. The mother again screamed "It burns! It burns!". Her mother wasnt possessed - she just wanted more attention from her daughter. Exorcist priests have an interesting job. Its really interesting to note that once a year, all of the Catholic priests who are exorcists have a conference in a 
European city. This year its Warsaw. I cant imagine how cool, surreal, and creepy that conference is. Anyways, maybe you should try sprinkling the dude with holy water, Sleeping. Or tap water from a holy water bottle!

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Weird shit happens all the time, well, to me anyway. Not quite that spooky, but weird nontheless.

I wouldn't dare to offer an explanation....although it's plausable that this madman did overhear you calling Gavin by name. It's not something you'd remember is it. What you should remember, however, is that when we can't find 'reasonable' explanations we automatically jump to supernatural conclusions, when there (almost certainly) is an explanation.

Martinelv Corp (tm) - always ready to put the brakes on romantic notions of the supernatural. :twisted:


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2005)

Actually the dude who was acting all psychic and psycho was me. I decided to come spy on you guys and make sure you two were cooperating. I will also be attending your wedding. I'll try not to walk like a zombie and have conversations with the little piggies in the sky while you two are walking down the aisle.

That is some mega cool shiznit yo. I, like you, believe in the paranormal and demon possession. Then again, if you can take LSD and throw your brain chemistry out of wack to the point where you see flying elephants then maybe it's nothing but a fucked up brain that causes all of those things. I do believe in psychic powers though and this guy definetly sounds like he had a sixth sense. There is no other way to explain it unless you happened to call out Gavin's name and he overheard you?


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> There is no other way to explain it


Why ?

Do you think thunder is the anger of the gods? :wink:


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2005)

If the guy isn't from england, hadn't come in contact with Sb and Gavin earlier in the evening or hadn't overheard SB saying Gav's name then how else do you explain it? Pure luck? The name Gavin is rare to nonexistent in Hawaii(my guess anyways.) The chances of guessing it are one in a million. I would be hard pressed to find any other explanation. I personally do believe that psychic senses do exist in some. I am somewhere in the middle with demon possession and the paranormal.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

I don't pretend to know how to explain it. We can make educated guesses, but that's all.

Ah, ignore me. I bore myself. Yes, it was the fairies.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2005)

Educated guesses! Yes, true!

God exists Martin and he loves you very much! Get on your knees and beg for forgiveness!


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## Axel19 (Aug 11, 2004)

What's weird is that last night I had a dream about zombies in which I had to use garden tools to kill them (again). It was fun.
The only logical explanation is he died, gained omniscience in heaven including learning Gavin's name, only to be reincarnated by ancient Hawaiin voodoo rituals. Actually isn't voodoo Haitian, well I'm sure Hawaiians have their own brand. My dream fortells darkness, that these zombies mean us harm and we must take up arms aginst them.

By the way, what state of decay was he in?


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2005)

It was Pure Narcotic, but he was being controlled from afar by me via the microchips I implanted in his brain.


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## Sunshine Spirit (Feb 22, 2005)

Sleeping Beauty, I believe you!

I believe you should always listen to your gut feeling and that we can sense things, if something's not quite right.

I've never dabbled in anything spooky. On the contrary - my father was a lay preacher for seventeen years. But after Lance's brother was murdered, *many* spooky things started happening to me.

I went to a meeting at a local Spiritual Church, trying to make sense of it all. That evening, they had a clairvoyant there. She was really lovely, middle-aged lady and said *nothing* negative - she simply wanted to prove to the world that our loved ones are always around us. She spoke to at least half a dozen people in the audience. She didn't speak to me, but while she was talking, she mentioned her dog, and a name - *Sheeba *- popped into my mind. It was strong and as clear as anything!

Afterwards, as some of us had tea and biscuits, I asked her what her dog's name was and she said, "Sheeba."!

She answered my questions about Lance's brother, and told me that I was what they would call 'sensitive'. On our way home, Lance wondered why the clairvoyant hadn't seem surprised or impressed. I said that I imagined something so trivial as what I had to say, would mean nothing to a genuine clairvoyant.

It happened to me *again*, just last week. I was sat on a bench in the fields near my home, when a man cycled past. Then an Alsation came trotting along, and stopped to sniff a tree. I suddenly had an overwhelming urge to call him over to me, so that I could stroke him. The name, Sam, was clear in my head. But just as I was about to shout his name, a woman came cycling along, and as she passed me, she called, "Sam!" and he trotted on after the couple.

I know sceptics would say that Sam is a very common name for a dog, but Sheeba's not. If anything, I would say that Sheeba is a name for a cat. After all, there's even a cat food called 'Sheeba'.

Anyway, Sleeping Beauty, I reckon that either;-

1. Gav's name popped into that young guy's head in the same way as it did for me. He was also suffering from a mental illness.

2. He *wasn't* talking and laughing to himself: he was chatting to his evil boogeymen friends!!!

*SPOOKY.........* :shock:


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> God exists Martin and he loves you very much! Get on your knees and beg for forgiveness!


I get on my knees for nobody. Well, except perhaps for you, darling.


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

I think it's funny how so many people are willing to disregard the notion of the "supernatural" on the sole premise that it is something that science can't, as yet, explain. Even when no other explanations present themselves. SB has already said that they she didn't call Gavin by name. I'm sure they would have jumped on this as the first likely explanation of how this bizarre man knew his name. I'm sure they would have exhaustively examined every possible verbal exchange they had, in the hopes of gleaning a "Gavin" or a "Gav" or some derivation thereof, just to set their minds at ease.

The principles of quantum physics, and thus the dictates of science, and hence the tenets of rational thought, are as follows:

1. Anything is possible. Given infinite time, a sparrow could fly unimpeded through a 50 foot thick concrete wall.

2. Particles (electrons for example), literally "know" whether people are watching them or not and can make decisions based on this knowledge. Macrosize and extrapolate this idea using the laws of statistics and it opens up a whole new world of thought.

3. A particle can create itself by borrowing the energy from an equation and then pay the energy back to the equation so that it can borrow it in the first place.

Make sense? Sound logical? Well, neither does some guy knowing Gavin's name out of the blue.

I'm all for scepticism...nay, even cynicism. But when there is no other explanation...look further. That's why maxims like Occam's Razor are often misused. When reducing toward a conclusion from a plurality of possibilities, the possibilities that have not yet been discovered are inevitably discarded. There is still so much we don't know.

s.


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

*By all means* search for a way to explain this by supernatural means. If you can *prove* it, then I, for one, may well believe you.

Until then, half-baked theories about "spirits and demons" which have a sum total of *no* conclusive evidence cannot be expected to be treated seriously.

I am not saying that categorically they are impossible, not at all - but it requires argument and evidence to support any such viewpoint, neither of which have been or can as yet be presented by anyone making supernatural claims.

The same was true for quantum physics. It remains so now.


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

Monkeydust said:


> I am not saying that categorically they are impossible, not at all - but it requires argument and evidence to support any such viewpoint, neither of which have been or can as yet be presented by anyone making supernatural claims.


I agree. But people do categorically say that it's impossible, whereby i see a "supernatural" (supernatural in this case meaning, "all that science does not yet know") explanation as the most probable. And it's all about probability.

The fact of the matter is that our ability to empirically test _everything_ is hindered by the infancy of our apparati. We haven't the ability yet, to test for things like this, because neither the theory, nor the technology are there yet.

It would be like cavemen testing for radio waves. We need to evolve...but in that evolution we, as a species should, at the very least, realize that we know very very little.

s.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2005)

The problem is not that the supernatural is IMPOSSIBLE - clearly you're correct, Sebastian, there may very well be all kinds of "explanations" that are not logical according to the laws of physics as we know them.

The problem is that people don't just take oddness (or the supernatural) and say "well, well....it's quite something, true?" and then go on their merry way. The mind, and particularly the minds of obsessional types, wants answers. In attempts to UNdo the unknown, we create bizarre delusional "reasons" for the anomaly - and we really screw ourselves in terms of mental health.

Delusions are built, not as the unexplained, but from neurotic desperate efforts to NOT leave things unexplained. To counter-act the reality which is that we humans know very little, we weave tapestries of intricate and disturbing details - little Twilight Zone episodes - that answer the "Why?" to the supernatural doings we encounter.

Note too, please...nobody's delusions revolve around "well, that is so odd. Must be this explanation (and then weave a story that has NOTHING to do with them!). We always 'write' fantasy explanations that have us as the centre du universe. To counteract the unknown (and our narcissistic annihilation terrors) we end up with a delusion that revolves around US - and then we take more meds and have more sleepless nights, terrified of some future revelation that was only born from the panic of a small child who is not sure who he/she is in this world of very dangerous others.

Peace,
Janine


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

Oh and another thing........

_Even if_ we were to accept that there are "spirits and demons" about, the view that schizophrenics in some way communicate with these is demonstrably false.

This is due to te fact that in nearly all schizophrenic cases (except, apparently, in this one), the voices are unable to tell them information the person doesn't know - in fact, I've heard a technique schizophrenics learn in therapy in order to get the voices to "shut up" is to ask them to tell them something they don't already know.

The view given at the beginning of this thread would require the admission that only that one man spoke to "spirits" and all other schizophrenics do not. This doesn't seem very plausible.

But, anyway, Janine is right. Just because we don't understand something, doesn't mean "fantastic" explanations are there to be found. That's just our minds playing tricks on us.


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## Sunshine Spirit (Feb 22, 2005)

Sorry folks, I shouldn't have said that 'the bloke' *wasn't* talking to himself, but instead was chatting to evil boogeymen. I *was *only joking, so as to give a more spooky atmosphere to this thread. Still, it was very immature of me. :roll: I also shouldn't have said I believed the bloke must have been suffering from a mental illness.

My brother suffers from Schizophrenia. I believe the voices come from within him and that they're a part of his 'whole' self.

I know I often come across as a 'know it all', but I honestly don't mean to sound like that. I often write and say silly things without thinking. Impulsive and scatty - that's me!

However, I *do* still think it's possible that the bloke knew Gavin's name, simply because the name had 'entered' his mind, in the same way as it had happened with me.

'How' the names entered my mind is obviously unexplained, and I have no desire to try to analyse 'why' they did. I learnt a long time ago, that it's a waste of time and energy, trying to understand something which is beyond my comprehension.

Nowadays, if the unexplained happens, I usually think, "So what?", accept it as a bizzare part of my conscious exsistence, and carry on with life.


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## enigma (Feb 18, 2005)

I've experienced a number of utterly inexplicable coincidences in my 'life' (as doubtless _everyone_ has).

But I've never read anything into them beyond that.

e


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Sebsastian, friend, dare I comment on your post ? Because if you're going to demolish my argument using one of thoses esquisite flowing repostes of yours, then I'm not going to say anyfing, because you make me sound stupid. And I'll stomp off in a terrible huff.

Anywho;



> I think it's funny how so many people are willing to disregard the notion of the "supernatural" on the sole premise that it is something that science can't, as yet, explain


First, why is it funny ? Anyway, secondly, what we are dismissing is appeals to something that has absolutely no basis in consensual and recognised reality. We dismiss it in the same way as we do, as adults, Father Christmas. It is less-than-idle-speculation-based-on-tabloid-paranormal-cultural-wonts. Something deep inside me desperatly would love it to be Goblins or whatever, but I can't see any reason for it to be so. Never in the history of paranormal investigations has anything 'spooky' been proved to be other than selective induction (noting the hits, ignoring the misses), illusion, misunderstanding or fraud. I, however, find it funny that people have to put their hands over their mouths when they say 'science' or 'reason'. They seem to think they are dirty words - it's all Genetic Modification, Nuclear Bombs or forcing Beagles to smoke cigarettes in the name of research. Yet I doubt they'd so so ready to dismiss the laws of gravity as they were about to fall off a bridge, or submit to conventional medicine to the realm of quackery when they discover they have appendicitus.



> I'm sure they would have exhaustively examined every possible verbal exchange they had


Doubtful. Do you remember how many times you've broke wind today ? Do you remember how many times you've used the word 'purple' ? And, in the heat of the moment, I doubt if SB or Gav remember exactly what they said. I'd put my money on either of them saying something like...'Come on SB/Gavin, let's get out of his way'. Isn't that more sensible than appeals to the fairies ? Unromantic, I know, which is why it's frequently ignored. And lest we forget, our brains are hard-wired to latch onto coincidences and forget the mundane. A good example, for me, was a couple of nights ago when reading Da Quincey's ravaging of Coleridge (I'm a pompus t.w.a.t, I know. Incidently - did you know that T.W.A.T is short for The War Against Terror ?  ) , when three times in a row I looked at the clock at 11 minutes past the hour. Has that got to do with something supernatural ? Spooky, yes. Unexplicable, I doubt it.



> 1. Anything is possible. Given infinite time, a sparrow could fly unimpeded through a 50 foot thick concrete wall


This, to paraphrase Homeskooled, is Pop-Quantum Theory, and you are talking about two different things anyway. While Quantum theory indicates that anything 'may' be possible (at the quantum level) it doesn't mean that it 'is' possible if, and this is this is important, the universe existed for an infinate length of time (oh, hang on, you said that), but which accoring to current cosmology, it certainly won't, or has not. If this were the case, we'd see mountains spontaneously disappearing (as is 'possible') or you'd slip through the pavement (which is possible - like your Sparrow - but not because of Quantum Theory - because of the fact that atoms are mostly space, and it is only because of the (strong and weak) nuclear and magnetic forces repel each other that this doesn't happen.) But we don't see these things. We see weeping statues, 'evidence' of telepathy and black cats. So when something 'spooky' happens, the more educated (or desperate) like to attribute it to Quantum Theory. I doubt many Quantum Physicists would agree. Either that, or like everyone who's shipped out to Thailand on the sub-culture boat, it's got something to do with a strange blending of Quantum Theory and Buddhism.



> Particles (electrons for example), literally "know" whether people are watching them or not and can make decisions based on this knowledge


You're talking about the Uncertinty Principle here, yes ? If so, what you have said is a human emotive. Sub-atomic particles do not 'know' whether they we looking at them - rather, the direct act of observation (human or not) interferes with their action. So rather than thinking of them as particles or waves, we think of them as fuzzy clouds. Confuses the hell out of me, coz I'm not a not one of the three quarks for muster Mark.

But I agree with you, yet - and this is my most important point I think, while Quantum Theory *is* almost too incredible to believe, the consequences of this theory can be touched, seen, verified, used....televisions, silicon chips, microwaves. And that's believable enough for me.

Despite my plundering of all things mystical, I don't think I am as creatively barren as people might imagine - the souless, unmagical atheist that I am. Life, the universe and everything has enough to light a fire under the arse of my imagination.



> But when there is no other explanation...look further.


What do you mean by 'further' ? :wink: As I understand it, modern science doesn't understand how a Bee can actually fly. By studying it's anatomy and the way their wings beat it seems that's it's physically impossible. Yet they fly, the bastards. How is that possible ?


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2005)

*Zounds! You guys are all wrong!*

I have an explanation for y'all! Gavin looks like a Gavin, doesn't he? I just sort of assume every British guy is named Gavin or Nigel, so if I saw a guy I suspected of being British, I might just call him Gavin, or maybe Nigel jokingly. We pick up on all kinds of subconscious cues...we might be aware of more information than we're flat-out given.

***case closed. solved by me, detective***


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2005)

'course, I've had experiences that can be called paranormal before (i.e. seeing visions from the future in my dreams, etc., but they are all unproveable and could possibly be explained by my subconscious psychosis, or otherwise explain my madness.

*By the way, can anyone guess my name? No fair if you already know. Get it in three tries and prove my point.*


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## agentcooper (Mar 10, 2005)

1. Mike
2. Derek
3. Brian

how'd i do?

now guess mine....just kidding, it would be nearly impossible to guess mine.


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## Axel19 (Aug 11, 2004)

Ok just two things I wanted to say.
Firstly Sb and Gavin's experience was, to put it in a phrase, very cool. Regrdless of trying to explain it away, seeing a zombie like apparition stumbling around a deserted part of town late at night is cool. But then when this already terrifying creature seems to display some sort of supernatural powers, the experience becomes unforgetable. I reckon it will be one of those quirky memories that the two of them share forever.

Secondly, I'd probably agree with Martin, that we only have to look to nature to be awe struck. I don't see the point in trying to make reality out to be more than it is, when what it already is, is remarkable. I'm not saying that's what you guys are doing with this. But I don't like this attitude I see a great deal with the pseudo Buddhist types, who think there is something wrong with the reality we experience most of the time. Just read ALdous Huxley 'Doors of Perception', sorry to sum up a so called classic in a sarcastic sentence, but the guy could hardly articulate what was happening to him, because it was, after all, just a crazy meaningless drug trip. 
Also science isn't something bespeceled old men do in laboratries deep under ground. The empirical method is essential to all of us, and we employ in everythign we do. It allows us to have the most meaningful experiences of all, anemly those with other people. The nest time you find yourself delighted to _see_ a loved one, you are employing the scientific method. The scientific method is integrated into our biology whether we like it or not.


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

Martinelv said:


> > I think it's funny how so many people are willing to disregard the notion of the "supernatural" on the sole premise that it is something that science can't, as yet, explain
> 
> 
> First, why is it funny ?


Well, i meant funny as in odd, not as in ha-ha.



> Never in the history of paranormal investigations has anything 'spooky' been proved to be other than selective induction (noting the hits, ignoring the misses), illusion, misunderstanding or fraud.


First of all, are you really such an expert in this field to make this claim, Martin? And secondly, if it were "proved", wouldn't it then move out of that field and into that of recognized science, and only then wouldn't it be subjected to "proper scientific" study? I mean, that's where this stuff comes from. It's the very definition of paranormal. Not scientifically explainable, according to Webster's dictionary. If science wasn't a malleable edifice, we'd still be buying condos at the "edge of the earth", for a place closest to the sun. Or cowering in fear of Zeus when lighting flew from the sky. And as for those kooks who preached these ideas in the first place...only then would they be lauded as visionaries.

Question: What's the difference between genius and insanity?

Answer: A few centuries.

Genetic engeneering, probing the brain to elicit predictible responses, cloning, space travel, radio waves, television waves, microwaves, atom bombs, the predictions of certain natural phenomenon. These are all things that would have been thought of as wacky, had you brought them up over some mutton and mead back in the good ol' days while sitting around the funeral pyre.

It reminds me of the story of that priest or whatever he was during that battle way back when, when he told everyone that if they didn't stop the fighting he would unleash his God-like powers at a certain time the next day. Everyone laughed at him, until he turned the sky black in mid-day, and sent everyone running back to their caves in fright. He wasn't magic. He just accurately predicted a solar eclipse.

How can we, in our scientific infancy, proclaim to know what's possible and what's impossible?

I mean, i agree...i believe in the scientific method. It's tried and true. But outside experiment lie things we simply can't test because we don't know how to test them yet. We are not the Gods we think we are.



> > 1. Anything is possible. Given infinite time, a sparrow could fly unimpeded through a 50 foot thick concrete wall
> 
> 
> This, to paraphrase Homeskooled, is Pop-Quantum Theory, and you are talking about two different things anyway. While Quantum theory indicates that anything 'may' be possible (at the quantum level) it doesn't mean that it 'is' possible if, and this is this is important, the universe existed for an infinate length of time (oh, hang on, you said that), but which accoring to current cosmology, it certainly won't, or has not.


In Quantum Theory, as it stands today, everything eventually will happen. There is no "maybe" about it. It is simply a question of probability and time. And it isn't just on the quantum level, although granted the odds are astronomically more likely that say, a photon will tunnel through a concentrated gravitational mass, as opposed to an entire living thing (the sparrow, for instance), having the unfathomably unlikely fortune of flying through a concrete wall.

In fact, there is the many-worlds theory which postulates that absolutely everything that can happen, will happen, as the infinite amount of bifurcations take reality on an endless roller-coaster ride through space. And so, temporally or spatially, all is possible in this universe...or multi-verse, or whatever the hell it's called.

Now, what this has to do with the price of bread in Mexico or, more pressingly, the whole gav/sb encounter with that man, is that in a world such as this, where anything WILL happen, we should not relegate ourselves to the position that only things we know about can happen, and everything else is phooey. Quite frankly, such ideas are pure Newtonian in their terrestrial arrogance.



> If this were the case, we'd see mountains spontaneously disappearing (as is 'possible') or you'd slip through the pavement (which is possible


Dammit Martin, quit thinking like a human! If you close your eyes do you know for certain that the world still exists? Where does the world go when you sleep? Prove to me that it still exists when you're off in La La Land, having anal sex with 800 lbs. gorillas or whatever it is you do in your dreams. One has to think outside of the box.

For example, if you did "slip through the pavement", where do you think you'd go? You certainly wouldn't be on here typing about it, and so by de facto logic, we can clearly say that none of us has slipped through pavement. But that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. People go missing all the time. Maybe this is what the problem is. Maybe there's a mass of people slipping through the pavement and we should inform some sort of international body about it. Perhaps that's why there's always a single shoe laying by the side of the road. It's always seemed absurd to me that people would constantly be chucking shoes out the window while driving. And why only one? What good is the other shoe going to do if the other one is laying at the side of the road? Unless you're totally unconcerned with how silly you'll look having two different shoes that don't even match. But i'd imagine the proportion of people who would be unconcerned with such fashion faux pas would be drastically lower than the amount of shoes i've seen by the side of the road. And so, maybe they are slipping through the pavement.



> > Particles (electrons for example), literally "know" whether people are watching them or not and can make decisions based on this knowledge
> 
> 
> You're talking about the Uncertinty Principle here, yes ? If so, what you have said is a human emotive. Sub-atomic particles do not 'know' whether they we looking at them - rather, the direct act of observation (human or not) interferes with their action.


You are mistaken, my dear Martin. Sub-atomic particles DO know whether we are looking at them. Or at least they exhibit the same tendencies that a cognizant entity would exhibit. I'm not speaking about the Uncertainty relation. That restricts our ability to measure both momentum and position, and you're right in the sense that this hinders our ability to accurately monitor these things, as they are fundamentally unreconcilable given their sub-Planck like length. However, tests can and have been conducted on electrons which infers their actions from various experiments, and time and time again, it shows that the wave function collapses once the "world at large" knows about their decisions.

To put this more clearly, this means that sub-atomic particles act as though they are waves until they are measured, and then they become particles. This is really a mind-boggling revelation, in that it shows how tenuous our reality really is. In fact, i find it oddly comforting to know that the cold, bleak world that some people try to paint, is actually bubbling with mystery, and we are simply unable to comprehend it because the harder we look, the murkier the water becomes. I also find the fact that ANYTHING is possible quite comforting as i've always found eternity a rather unsettling idea. The idea of something lasting forever. But if time is no object...if we were to die and become energy trapped in a black swirling mass of gravity...trapped in a neutron star...trapped even by the weight of the universe itself...there is still an absolute certainty that one day, somewhere, somehow, we will free ourselves.

Anyway, i'm getting enormously off-topic. If anyone is interested in all this, i'd highly recommend John Gribben's Search of Schrodinger's Cat for reading or downloading Richard Feynman's UCLA lectures on quantum theory. That particular book by Gribben is written for the layman so it's quite lucid and easy to follow. The Feynman lectures are entertaining but a little more in depth. Also, the University of Colorado has a great physics web site, and actually lets you do experiments online through flash or java or whatever the hell utility they use.

Now, just to clarify things. I'm not saying that this whole incident most certainly did happen through some sort of cosmic quackery. I'm just saying that we never really know. Anything is possible. And i'm also aware of the extreme unlikelihood of all the examples i mentioned above, and that all things being equal, a Newtonian universe is precisely the kind we live in day-to-day, and for all intents and purpose, Relativity, Quantum Physics, and the multi-dimensions of String Theory, are all things i don't have to worry a whole lot about. I realize that 99 times out of a hundred, at the very _least[/], a person will be delusional rather than prophetic...lucky, rather than destined...crazy rather than genius. But we shouldn't be too hasty. There's much more to this world than meets the eye.

s._


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2005)

I have no problem with Feynman tossing these ideas around his head. He, a man married three times, dad to one kid, adopted dad to another, musician and visual artist, developer of massive projects in science, including the key to the Shuttle disaster, is not using his ideas about quantum physics as an excuse not to live. A true eccentric in many many ways, but he's not holed up in a house afraid to live and afraid to die.

But when I see patients who suffer hideously from what they consider "TRUTH" found in supernatural doings, I have to question the real purpose of those thoughts. To me, it's not about insight or even existential musings. We suffer from mythic delusions when we are so troubled that we've lost SELF inside ideas.

Peace,
Janine


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## Axel19 (Aug 11, 2004)

What Janine just said is so true.
However I would like to add one more point to this whole quantum discussion, even though it has nothing to do with telepathic zombies. Physicists tend to hope that the universe is finite. What they hope is that the universe is finite, and will come to an end one day. Effectively what this means is that one day we will have the 'big crunch', which is kinda' the opposite of the big bang. After the big crunch the universe will begin again, and we will all repeat our lives again, and again, infinitely. I just thought that was quite interesting, even though it may not necessarily turn out to be the case.
However, I must say, quantum theory no longer interests me. I think if there were intelligent life forms that lived at the quantum level, and were used to quantum mechanics, particles acting like waves, uncertainty over the position and velocity of a particle etc. I think that if these beings existed and knew about our macroscopic level, that obeyed the laws of Newtonian mechanics, then they would be very envious of us. I know that sounds silly, but what I mean is that when one realises that things don't have to be a certain way, that indeed quantum sized particles can randomly appear out of nothing and so on, then one finds the whole thing to be rather uninteresting. It is in our macroscpoic world that the really fascinating things occur.
Lastly, I read all of those popular science books, did the first year of a degree in physics and I eventually discovered that whatever these scientific crack pots were on about it held little significance for me as a mortal, and I'd be better off doing a degree I was actually interested in.
Mathematics, science, logic these are only ways of decribing reality in a way that is meaningful, however reality will always be the same.


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## Axel19 (Aug 11, 2004)

I just saw Privateer's explanation and it is probably the best.



> Zounds! You guys are all wrong!
> 
> I have an explanation for y'all! Gavin looks like a Gavin, doesn't he? I just sort of assume every British guy is named Gavin or Nigel, so if I saw a guy I suspected of being British, I might just call him Gavin, or maybe Nigel jokingly. We pick up on all kinds of subconscious cues...we might be aware of more information than we're flat-out given.
> 
> ***case closed. solved by me, detective***


The mind/brain does a whole lot of stuff uncounsciously. This crazy guy, with all sorts of weird and disjointed thoughts running through his head probably knew a Gavin who looked like the dpselfhelp Gavin, and mistook him for Gavin. Or perhaps Gavin was wearing a tee shirt that this other Gavin also once wore, and this crazy guy, in his craziness, took this to mean that it was the Gavin he knew. I remember Gavin had a beard in the last pic I saw of him, perhaps this other guy knew a Gavin with a beard.....and well you get the point. 
I think Privateer's explanation solves the case.


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## falling_free (Nov 3, 2004)

EUREKA etc etc


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Sebastian, you could at least make a spelling mistake, or a tiny little grammatical error. Is that asking too much ?



> First of all, are you really such an expert in this field to make this claim, Martin?


I don't have to be an expert, because I'm not the person making the claim. As far as I know, and as far as I'm sure that there is no invisible leprechaun under my bed, no paranormal phenomena has every stood up to scrutiny. Ever. Of course, I expect that's because, as I hear on a regular basis, that paranormal phenomena doesn't 'work' in a strictly controlled environment. Yawn. Even Homeskooled, in our debate regarding clairvoyance, has rationally explained seemingly miraculous events as mere illusion.



> And secondly, if it were "proved", wouldn't it then move out of that field and into that of recognized science


Yes, it would. Well, at least it would be moved from the 'paranormal' arena to the 'supernatural' one.



> Genetic engeneering, probing the brain to elicit predictible responses, cloning, space travel, radio waves, television waves, microwaves, atom bombs, the predictions of certain natural phenomenon. These are all things that would have been thought of as wacky, had you brought them up over some mutton and mead back in the good ol' days while sitting around the funeral pyre.


I entirely agree. I know what you're saying...keep an open mind...the paranormal, because of the 'weirdness' of Quantum Theory, may have some basis in reality. Sure. Maybe. But isn't it curious that paranormal claims are almost exclusively based on very human hopes, fears, desires. Spirits, aliens, god/s, clairvoyance, astrology, telepathy, numerology..As the saintly Richard Dawkins suggest...'sure, keep an open mind, but not such an open mind that our brains fall out'. I'm going to have that quote on my gravestone...unless I die in an manner where my skull is torn open and my brains *do* actually fall out. I'm not that insensitive, although it would be a final and delicious act of irony on my part.



> In Quantum Theory, as it stands today, everything eventually will happen


I'm not sure that's quite true, even supposing that the universe will exist for an infinite period of time. My understanding is that the Copenhagen interpretation of uncertainty does not entirely do away with certain deterministic rules. Again - I say, it may be possible for anything to happen, but as you say, isn't it stupendously more likely that this 'possibility' will manifest itself in a 'charmed' quark turning into a 'strange' quark, rather than the sparrow flying through a brick wall ? At least in the lifetime of our universe.

In my own strange way, I have been equally culpable of twisting what little I know of Quantum Theory to suit my own emotional needs. When my close friend died, last year, of Leukaemia, I pondered over the 'all possible worlds' idea so loved by Star Trek and science fiction fans, to suppose that given enough people, and given enough time, me and him would meet again. A sort of quantum-reincarnation if you like. I know, and did at the time, that it's poppy-cock, but I stand guilty as charged.



> Dammit Martin, quit thinking like a human! If you close your eyes do you know for certain that the world still exists?


If a bear shits in the woods and nobody is there to tread in it, is the pope catholic ? No, I cannot be certain that when I close my eyes that the world ceases to exist, but until the day that happens, I won't worry about it and continue to live in the consensual reality that we all live in. What point are you trying to make ?



> this means that sub-atomic particles act as though they are waves until they are measured, and then they become particles. This is really a mind-boggling revelation


Yes, the wave/particle duality certainly is a puzzle - to put it mildly. But again, as I understand it, it is more of an aspect of quantum theory than reality - or rather the inability of anything (ie. us and our paricle accelerators) to measure them with any certainty. But yet - it's still only a puzzle..a very young puzzle...and who's to say they won't figure it out ?


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

Martinelv said:


> As the saintly Richard Dawkins suggest...'sure, keep an open mind, but not such an open mind that our brains fall out'. I'm going to have that quote on my gravestone...unless I die in an manner where my skull is torn open and my brains *do* actually fall out. I'm not that insensitive, although it would be a final and delicious act of irony on my part.


Now, that would be funny. But not quite as funny as having in my will that when i die, my body must be thrown to the sharks while everyone stands around watching them rip me to shreds. I mean, i suppose it would be quite horrible for my loved ones, but it would almost be worth it just to hear them say, "God, what a lunatic this guy was."

s.


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## = n (Nov 17, 2004)

More, encore!

I find this thread most amusing but due to having sadly neglected my studies of quantum physics or indeed Jungian interpretations of coincidence (beyond knowing that he has some) i feel sadly unqualified to contribute  .

I dont think its paranormal but its certainly a freakish event. I remember when it happened to me as a kid it was because my Dad had embarassingly painted my name on the underside of my shoes, so when i walked people could read it  :wink: ). As anyone in the UK whos watched Derren Browns shows will know, the mind can be extremely suggestible and is open to all kinds of subconscious influences. So its a mystery yes, but i am seeing unwarranted jumping in the direction of conclusions.

Supernatural explanations can be seen as just an attempt to explain things away. It might take courage, but whats more mysterious and magical than saying 'we dont know'?


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Don't worry =n, I'm not qualified to speak with authority on any matter. I only have a thin veneer of intelligence, below which is a seething mass of idiocy.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2005)

What's funny is that I was sitting down for lunch today and I was eating, and I look up and see this guy sitting at the table across from me. I don't know this guy and as far as I know I've never seen him before and he winks at me and says, "what's up" and calls me by name. Now this guy's gotta be like 50, gray hair, Fu Man Chu mustache, tattoos...I'm pretty sure I didn't go to High school with him or anything and yet he knows my name.

Certainly weird but not neccesarily paranormal.

True story by the way.

I do technically have one of the most common names in America, but still...


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

Privateer said:


> I do technically have one of the most common names in America, but still...


Nonsense! I can't think of a single person i know named "Privateer".


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2005)

Good one, Sebastian


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## agentcooper (Mar 10, 2005)

but seriously...did i guess your name right? check on page 2.


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