# DP is enlightenment



## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

A student once told his teacher "I want to be enlightened." The Zen Master responded "Why? You might not like it."

I just read Profound Buddhism for the 4th time today and it blew my mind more than ever and im sure your head would explode if you read it. It talks constantly of emptiness of mind which yall talk about. Here are some quotes from the book...

"Solitary Buddhas" consider that the individual is inherently empty of existence," p32

"In the Vehicle of bodhisattva, the individual and the external world are seen as entirely lacking of existence in themselves. They are empty." p32

People on here complain about not experiencing emotions anymore... "we recognize the result of meditation when emotions decrease." p52

"let the mind rest in emptiness" p60

"We see that ordinary beings, not perceiving this emptiness, think in terms of "me" and "I exist." This mistake makes them accept all phenomena as real, and they experience all kind of sufferings." p73-74

"All phenomena are only a projection of the mind, lacking any reality in themselves" p90

"According to the Buddha, phenomena are neither true nor false." p96

The first two quotes from the book i posted means according to Theravada Buddhism experiencing the self as empty is enlightenment aka DP. Mahayana Buddhists say that experiencing emptiness of self and all phenomena is a higher enlightenment known as the superior vision aka DP+DR. There is still one higher form of Buddhism based on the Tantras and i assume their version of enlightenment is the highest, i once heard it described as the union of emptiness and bliss. Im not claiming DP is the highest enlightenment but it certainly appears to be enlightenment depending on what you consider enlightenment.

To all of you who talk about experiencing fear all the time. In Hinduism the oldest religion on Earth they have a term for god called Bhairava which usually gets interpreted as consciousness which is right but also has another definition which is Terror. There is a book called Vijnana Bhairava best book ever and they translate it as Divine Consciousness but it can also be translated to Divine Knowledge of Terror. Its an ancient book of 112 ways to realize god or ultimate reality.

Does any of this sound familiar?


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2011)

sunyata samsara said:


> A student once told his teacher "I want to be enlightened." The Zen Master responded "Why? You might not like it."
> 
> I just read Profound Buddhism for the 4th time today and it blew my mind more than ever and im sure your head would explode if you read it. It talks constantly of emptiness of mind which yall talk about. Here are some quotes from the book...
> 
> ...


i def agree with you. There is such a depth to this dp... and around my teens i discovered the similarities between it and the eastern teachings in meditation. I got dp at 7 when i looked in the mirror and asked 'who am i'? .. and around the age of 23 I was led into a meditation by a meditation instructor who made me repeatedly say ' Who am i?' over and over.. in my head i was thinking.. ok.. i know where this is gonna get me. LOL I believe that the ego fears Dp because once Dp'd the ego has nothing to tell it what it is... It just is ... and so the fear we feel is not having something to call our own... nor to identify with. It is def an ego-less state.

I read a book by Bernadette Roberts..called 'the experience of no-self'. My teacher from school has known Bernadette for 28 years and so we spoke about her deep spiritual experiences and with depersonalization. She said that we must cherish the Ego because it is a gift for use to experience reality in this dimension.. to experience joy, sensations, love.. etc. But for some like us and her.. we have something to learn from.. from Dp.. there is a reason why it is in our life.. and only we can find that answer for ourselves..

I also came across this video on Alchemy... this man channels info and in it he describes the process of Alchemy. And to me again it sounds like Dp.. 'emptying the self'..






also.. from some of my own experiences I have found Dp is an important step we must take to move into experiencing the FULLNESS that we are. Not.. just knowing.. but experiencing it. In a sense it is like sacrificing the self in order to experience All that is.. and this is after the empty state of Dp.

It is one thing to *know* we are one with all and a whole other to *experience* it.


----------



## TheGame (Feb 1, 2011)

Hey!

Interesting observation. However there is no truth in what is said here. It is basically misunderstanding the word of the buddha.

What buddha meant by emptiness of the mind was a mind freed from thoughtforms. GAD and DP are similar in that you tend to have "thoughtblocks" however these are not enlightened states of mind it is a state of fear of the unknown and uncertainty about ones identity. when you are enlightened you realize that your true essence identity cannot be named or described in terms of how our mind likes to put a label on it. it can only be known. 
And DP is a state of not knowing or beeing aware of oneself and therefore not enlightenment. It is merely a state of hightened awareness of your surroundings and it is in no way healthy. (i know this is just an interesting pondering or a thought that is written above but it still needs correction so that individuals with a loss of self does not believe that they have become jesus...)

As for the experience of DP some have claimed that it is or can be a philosophic state of mind but it is involuntary and provoked by a tired and unrested brain. that in and of itself does not refute that it is indeed through an "enlightened" or higher knowledgebased filter we with DP see the world. But it is again ultimately derived from being controlled by our minds and that cannot be described as an enlightened state of beeing.

So then what is an enlightened state of beeing?

Enlightenment comes only when we are aware of ourselves as living organisms (not to be confused with the self-awareness in DP)and aware of others as creatures of this earth and not merely pawns in a game or units in a military experiment (?) enlightenment is when we know that we are and that is all the knowledge we need. The knowledge that I AM is enough and therefore refutes the above stated because DP is basically an inflated EGO that thinks that it can control outer circumstance when the fact is that that cannot be done. (i have myself had a really hard time with this one)

Enlightenment is also a state of acceptance of what is. Witch definately conflicts with all that DP is and how it manifests itself. DP/DR is a nonacceptive state of mind that wishes to change or control/manipulate outer circumstance as a compensation for the loss of enjoyment of beeing. 
When you are content in the moment is when you get a glimpse of enlightenment. Not when you try hard as hell all day to rid yourself of unreality.

Please people, realise that this state has nothing to do with godliness or beeing enlightened. It is disease (DIS-EASE) and should be treated as such.
but ofcourse everyone is entitled to their choice in the matter. I have also pondered over things in this state and i still do. But i try to instead calm down as alot of the thoughts that we have in this state induce further anxiety and dread.


----------



## gill (Jul 1, 2010)

People experiencing DP are have concern over their self, how they feel. If it was a loss of self, then why would any of us care how we feel, or how our perception is different?

And what The Game said....

edit

Just wanted to add, of course, we can all learn a lot from going through this. I have been 'enlightened' with more wisdom. But I don't think the learning really ever ends, don't feel like I've reached any ultimate state....


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2011)

gill said:


> People experiencing DP are preoccupied with a concern over their self, how they feel. If it was a loss of self, then why would any of us care how we feel, or how our perception is different?
> 
> And what The Game said....
> 
> ...


Gill.. do you ever wonder if this isn't the ultimate state.. but a necessary step in experiencing a more expanded state of awareness?

i have experienced a very profound state of unity.. and i believe i owe it to DP for allowing me to detach from illusion. After having DP for over 15 years i experienced the bliss. I no longer have DP.. but strong blissful experiences from time to time. I can tap into DP depth if I meditate on it. But the blissful states are just so much more powerful and i believe it is because of my experiences with Dp. Course, this is me and i cannot speak for anyone.I am just sharing my own experiences with you.. and how I know that DP was a very important stepping stone.

Do you believe that on some level of your existence that you wanted to experience DP for any reason?


----------



## gill (Jul 1, 2010)

ellatree said:


> Gill.. do you ever wonder if this isn't the ultimate state.. but a necessary step in experiencing a more expanded state of awareness?
> 
> i have experienced a very profound state of unity.. and i believe i owe it to DP for allowing me to detach from illusion. After having DP for over 15 years i experienced the bliss. I no longer have DP.. but strong blissful experiences from time to time. I can tap into DP depth if I meditate on it. But the blissful states are just so much more powerful and i believe it is because of my experiences with Dp. Course, this is me and i cannot speak for anyone.I am just sharing my own experiences with you.. and how I know that DP was a very important stepping stone.
> 
> Do you believe that on some level of your existence that you wanted to experience DP for any reason?


Well, I'd say that my awareness has been expanded. It see it as expanding through any intense experiences though.


----------



## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

The Game sums it up pretty well DP is the opposite of enlightenment

I have studied Buddhism a fair bit over the last few years and when they say things don't exist they don't mean that in the literal sense rather they mean things don't exist independently, they rely on causes and conditions to exist; and if everything relies on causes and conditions to exist then where does it start and end? the universe is all just one big continually changing flux of energies and we are part of that process. All the energies and the forms they take like our bodies exist it's just they are continually changing and not fixed and if something is always changing where are "you" within that?

So in Buddhism your body still exist, your mind still exists, your emotions and thoughts still exist, it's just they are dependent on causes and conditions so they are not separate from a process. In no way would Buddhism make you emotionless as you would still feel sadness and pain etc, it's just that you end your resistance to those sorts of emotions and know they will pass so they come and go more easily.

If you don't feel your emotions then on some level you are resisting and repressing them, while Buddhist enlightenment is the end of all resistance and repression, so it is is the opposite of dp.


----------



## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

A simple test to see of you are enlightened in the Buddhist sense:

Sit down and relax with your spine straight, close our eyes and start to count your in and out breath from one to ten, when you get to ten go back to one, keep your breath as your anchor and put some of your attention on your thoughts and feelings.

If you then try to hold on to the pleasurable states and try to push away the negative ones you are not enlightened, simple.

If you can consistently let go of the pleasurable states just as easily as the negative and accept the negative just as easily as the positive then you are probably enlightened


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2011)

gill said:


> Well, I'd say that my awareness has been expanded. It see it as expanding through any intense experiences though. I mean, we all go through unique experiences ultimately so will have different perceptions of things. Look at the people who landed one the moon, I'm sure that changed their perception of the world a lot.
> 
> As far as wanting to experience it. Well, one of the main things that lead to this was taking psychedelic drugs. So yeah, I'd say I did have a desire to experience altered states. I'd say that the psychedelic drug experiences had some aspects of DP in them, but they were different in a lot of ways. I tend to be thinking negatively and inwardly when DPed, but the opposite on LSD.
> 
> ...


ok, so I can def imagine why you don't feel Dp is at all positive or a stepping stone to a state of enlightenment... because you got it after taking LSD.. I have tried LSD and remember some scary moments but not like DP.. it was more 'fun' i suppose and amusing...

well i got dp while contemplating the self.. so.. i do believe it has to do with self-detachment.. an emptying of the self. As the moment i asked ' who am i'.. i suddenly shifted into a state of detachment where i felt i was truly not the girl in the mirror... I was something way beyond it.. and that moment forward I learned that I was more than what I thought i was..

I can see why people who get it from drugs see it as a disorder.. it's as if you guys have accelerated your self awareness in such a quick moment... maybe too quickly.. and now you all only wish to be grounded again. I had a difficult time accepting it also though because i didn't have anything to blame of why i got it.. other than the thought i was contemplating right before i got it. But no drugs.. nor any stress or accident which caused it...

either way.. i feel that we all describe the same Dp.. the same detachment, the same pain that comes with it...


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2011)

Pablo said:


> The Game sums it up pretty well DP is the opposite of enlightenment
> 
> I have studied Buddhism a fair bit over the last few years and when they say things don't exist they don't mean that in the literal sense rather they mean things don't exist independently, they rely on causes and conditions to exist; and if everything relies on causes and conditions to exist then where does it start and end? the universe is all just one big continually changing flux of energies and we are part of that process. All the energies and the forms they take like our bodies exist it's just they are continually changing and not fixed and if something is always changing where are "you" within that?
> 
> ...


Hey Pablo









well.. do you think that maybe Dp is a stepping stone to enlightenment but not enlightenment itself?

Like for example in the Christian context.... you have to sacrifice self in order to reawaken to your self as Spirit.

Could it be possible that DP is the sacrifice? And the DIFFICULT stage towards rebirth?

In my case I see it as so because of how I got Dp... when i was 7 from self contemplation.


----------



## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

ellatree said:


> Hey Pablo
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Heya, I try not to generalise too much as each persons case is individual but dp could be a stepping stone for some people by expanding their awareness out of normal perception so they see that their previous view is not the only view or reality that can exist for them, which then opens their mind to wider possibilities, which then puts them on the search for what's real, it has done this for me. For some people I guess the shock of realising who they are isn't fixed could put you into a dp state before awakening, but I see that as very rare. But the thing is those altered states of perception are meant to be short lived and temporary, for example St John of the Cross famously had a dark night of the soul, just one night, well people here have been having dark months, years and decades of the soul and they are not awakening from it.

I can only speak from my own perspective and for me it was a loss of individuation, but it was more a regression back in time rather than a progression, a regression to a time when I was trying to individuate myself from my mother and family as the old way I tried to individuate myself failed and collapsed. It could be that this going back in time to when I wasn't individuated means that I can rebuild myself with more of me included this time so I can rebuild a more healthy me so it could be a sort of soul retrieval process. I guess if im honest I don't really know as personally I have had only a partial collapse of my ego which I have resisted and has left me fractured I haven't fully gone through the process yet, I don't know what will come out the other side of a total collapse or even if I will get there.


----------



## Guest (Feb 23, 2011)

I don't think DP/DR is any kind of enlightenment. Though I do know from personal experience, that it does force one to question existence and to overcome fear/etc. I've learned many life lessons while being DP'd. Though is that because of the DP/DR or is that just because Life has continued to teach me through experience in spite of the DP/DR?


----------



## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

I see the point only I don't imagine enlightenment comes with anxiety, obsessive compulsive thought patterns, or extreme fatigue.


----------



## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

I'm pretty sure DP is the exact opposite of enlightenment.


----------



## snow storm (Aug 10, 2010)

With dp comes awareness and I have made some realizations I don't think I could have made if it wasn't for the dp. It comes at a high price though. If or hopefully when I get through this process I will be a stronger individual who would like to inspire other people to trust themselves more and open up to who they are on the inside.


----------



## Fluke93 (Nov 2, 2010)

nirvana said:


> I'm pretty sure DP is the exact opposite of enlightenment.


I was thinking the same..


----------



## Guest (Feb 23, 2011)

I think everyone here is right in their own way.. at their own level of understanding

why do you all suppose that some people get dp after meditating? or after enlightening states?

Could it be possible that it is a stage one has to go through? or just a fragmentation of soul.. so therefore its like experiencing both sides of the coin a type of realization but a hell at the same time..

here is this guy who got it after Zen meditation..

*'I recently suffered my first episode of depersonalization which lasted for about a month. Prior to entering this mental state I had started to practice Zen meditation, which might have contributed to my change in perception. Now that I feel better again I am hesitant to resume this meditation practice as I would hate to suffer another episode of depersonalization. Can depersonalization be related to Buddhist enlightenment or are they two completely different states of being. According to Buddhist beliefs the state of enlightenment is characterized by the loss of a persons ego, which is exactly what I experienced during my episode of depersonalization. It is difficult for me to view depersonalization as an enlightened state, yet I am forced to wonder if my experience was actually the desired effect of meditation. It is my belief that depersonalization might be a positive experience if it occurs in a religious context, but terrible if it occurs otherwise.' * -http://www.depersonalization.info/expert3.html

Here is another.. and she writes..

* If the person has induced derealisation deliberately and in a controlled way, (I.e. through meditation or drug usage), then the experience can be one of detached calmness and enlightenment.Repetition can elicit depersonalisation, for instance; meditation involving repeating a mantra or concentrating on an object, certain kinds of dancing, and even Yoga. Some research conducted into depersonalisation has apparently used these activities to cue episodes of derealisation. Consequently, people who practice repetitive rituals and meditation in order to achieve 'enlightenment' or 'cosmic ecstasy', may actually be triggering depersonalisation as opposed to transcending an Earthly paradise.

I have spent a lot of time with mediators and have myself participated in meditation retreats. I know I have certainly experienced these so-called "enlightened" moments. It certainly never crossed my mind to interpret them as anything other than positive. But in retrospect, the experiences were not completely unrelated to what I am experiencing now. The difference is context and interpretation.

I'm not assuming that all experienced states of altered consciousness by practitioners of meditation are in fact simply depersonalization. That would be grossly presumptuous. But I have no doubt that it is sometimes the case.*
-http://bipolarblast.wordpress.com/2008/06/12/the-second-installmentdpdr-part-two/


----------



## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

When someone has an ego breakdown what can emerge from the wreckage is just a healthier more complete sense of self, there are thousands of accounts of people having mental breakdowns and recovering but very few of them talk about becoming enlightened afterwards, rather it is a healing of their ego. That's not to say it doesn't happen and dp cant be part of a spiritual emergency, they even put spiritual emergency in the latest DSM-IV so it now has "official" recognition in the psychiatric community, so these things do happen, but from what I can see it is rare.


----------



## Guest (Mar 18, 2011)

Who says enlightenment is a wholly 'positive' state? That's the ego fracturing the oneness of all things. Making a judgment that immediately makes it separate. DP is quite the enlightened state. Enlightenment does not equal happy. It equals stillness, center. DP scared the shit out of me at times, but it was only in relation to society, which is entirely illusion.

Christ, just look at the first line in this post. 
A student once told his teacher "I want to be enlightened." The Zen Master responded "Why? You might not like it."

Enlightenment is a word. Words are not facts. Fact is also a word. Eternal life through death is probably closer to enlightenment. The inability to be aware.


----------



## Guest (Mar 18, 2011)

All in all, great post Sunyata.


----------



## TheGame (Feb 1, 2011)

Enlightenment is nothing more than the realization that "I AM" prior to I am "this" or i am "that" And it is finding the your core essence identity free from thought forms and external forms. Identification with the mind witch seems to be predominant in DP-sufferers is NOT enlightenment.


----------



## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

In no way does being enlightened mean that you wont experience your emotions, rather it means you wont be identified with your emotions, yet they will still flow. If you don't feel emotions it means you are contracted; if you are contracted (unless you have a gun against your head or something) it means you are defending against ego attacks and if you are defended it means you are still attached and believe in a fixed independent ego, which means you are not enlightened.


----------



## gill (Jul 1, 2010)

To anyone in general...
You know, abrupt klonopin withdrawal causes depersonalization. I suppose then, if the whole world took a bunch of klono for a few weeks then quit cold turkey, most people would enter a state of enlightenment, 'higher awareness'.

I suppose a response to this might be: Well, that's a different type of depersonalization.

No, there's not multiple types. There's one definition. If that definition doesn't seem to fit your experience very well, then you ever just think the plain and simple; that you're not experiencing dp? Maybe something similar in ways, but if it doesn't fit the definition, instead of trying to redefine dp, maybe there's a more appropriate term out there for the experience?


----------



## Mushishi (May 31, 2010)

> The road to enlightenment is hell.


In my opinion... Enlightenment is just symptoms of evolution...


----------



## Guest (Mar 20, 2011)

You either are nuts or you will go nuts


----------



## girlie (Apr 1, 2010)

--


----------



## Guest (Mar 22, 2011)

sunyata samsara said:


> A student once told his teacher "I want to be enlightened." The Zen Master responded "Why? You might not like it."
> 
> I just read Profound Buddhism for the 4th time today and it blew my mind more than ever and im sure your head would explode if you read it. It talks constantly of emptiness of mind which yall talk about. Here are some quotes from the book...
> 
> ...


I'm glad if other people find dp enlightening, and I wish all those people well.

Personally, the more I learn, the more I realise I am backward compared to "norms" who simply live their lives.
I am playing catch up. Just to be able to engage in the ordinary things people take for granted.

Ive dropped my narcissism, and now i am just a person with a wobbly sence of reality.

I just want to go out, travel, make friends, have lovers, and have good times like anyone else.

but i'm hindered by my "enlightenment".

I hope its easier for you than it is for me.


----------



## Guest (Mar 22, 2011)

Forgive the gloomy post, but I have recently been pondering that, far from enlightenment, dp is a step back.
like you have to progress just to get to the starting line.
Sorry if that's not very supportive, but Im here to learn.


----------



## girlie (Apr 1, 2010)

--


----------



## Guest (Mar 22, 2011)

girlie said:


> I think I understand you so well - I feel dp/dr only as a defence mechanism, which activates cuz of some fear/anxiety. For me the cause is my deep fear and distrust toward the world and its people. Better to stay safe inside an iceberg apart from everyone, than be truly alive and happy in a truly alive and real world, when anyone may stab you with a dagger on your back anytime. I lack of the innermost basic security (if that is the right concept for what I am feeling.) This is how I stay dp'ed/dr'ed. Cuz I don't trust people. Of course I may trust them with a tiny bit of my consciousness, the one with which I am interacting with people and the world, but inside... There is nothing else but fear and distrust. Well I guess there is no need to tell that these problems of mine have the source in my early childhood.
> 
> I would never call dr/dp enlightenment, rather it is something on the contrary imho. For me enlightenment is the sense of total security, being one with the world and its creatures. I believe that enlightenment the grown up people try to find so eagerly, is something they have just lost during their journey into maturity. EVERY non-traumatized young child is enlightened. Even a traumatized child can be enlightened, when he or she is feeling safe. For me it was being alone in nature and it was really pure ecstasy, to be one with the nature, the trees, the meadows, the butterflies, picking the wild strawberries... It is a pity so many people tend to lose that skill to be truly present in the now when they grow up, be them depersonalized or not. It is really sad, I think.


I could not put it more perfectly, or agree with you more completely.


----------



## resonantblue (Mar 15, 2011)

I just found this really interesting video on this topic:
http://enlightenmentward.wordpress.com/2009/12/06/depersonalization-vs-enlightenment/


----------



## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

resonantblue said:


> I just found this really interesting video on this topic:
> http://enlightenmentward.wordpress.com/2009/12/06/depersonalization-vs-enlightenment/


Thanks that is really interesting, he says the Buddha talked about DP/DR directly in the Pali Sutras which he called "falling into the pit of the void" which was the opposite of enlightenment, i'm going to look more into this


----------



## Mushishi (May 31, 2010)

It's not the opposite. Just an alteration. Eckhart Tolle described symptoms of DP before he felt his new state of being of which felt connected to a sort of so called 'enlightenment'. When I first got over my DP, I entered a contented state of being for 6 months, then I smoked pot and DP started all over again. I'm hoping to get back to those places again.


----------



## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

Mushishi said:


> Eckhart Tolle described symptoms of DP before he felt his new state of being of which felt connected to a sort of so called 'enlightenment'.


Where did you hear that?


----------



## Guest (Apr 10, 2011)

Eckhart Tolle had severe depression. I don't think he had DP, but he probably did have massive anxiety. Actually right before he became "enlightened", he woke up in the night having a huge panic attack.


----------



## violetgirl (Apr 11, 2011)

surfingisfun001 said:


> I'm pretty sure DP is the exact opposite of enlightenment.


This is the truth.

As a recovered DPDer, I can 100% guarantee you that DPD is in no way shape of form enlightening. It's torture, a mental condition, it shuts you off from the world completely until you are totally locked inside you own brain.

It's not a spiritual journey, it's the DPD playing tricks on your. You are seaching for a positive reason for the hell you are in, and this is an easy way to explain it away.

Please, for the sake of your sanity don't attach any form of religion or spirituality to DPD. You will never recover if you go down this road.


----------



## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

violetgirl said:


> This is the truth.
> 
> As a recovered DPDer, I can 100% guarantee you that DPD is in no way shape of form enlightening. It's torture, a mental condition, it shuts you off from the world completely until you are totally locked inside you own brain.
> 
> ...


It's all relative. 'All' including the concept of enlightenment.


----------



## TheGame (Feb 1, 2011)

i agree with violetgirl on this one.

There is nothing in it besides getting to know your fears and anxieties witch will all wist away once youve recovered. The one thing you will have benefited from going trough it is a feeling of knowing oneself better. witch is probably the best gift anybody could ever have been given.

I look at DP not as an illness nor a disorder but a wakeup call. A wakeupcall to how we even when we are well take everything for granted in life and how the ego really manifests in our dayily lives without us knowing that it really affects every aspect of our life.

It will have been an important lesson for everyone that if you dont take care of yourself, your relationsships and your life, you'll end up eventually staring down at depression anxiety and an existential crisis beyond measure.

I will have gotten to know myself trough this and im sure most of you who are suffering from DP will have had a better understanding aswell.

From this you might experience slight glimpses of enlightenement and eventually may be enlightened but i am sure that when you get back to the swing of things again. You will be exactly the same person you where before with a few exceptions. You will love more, live more and give only to those you think deserve it. I am also pretty sure that you will have realized that enlightenment isnt really needed to feel good in one's own skin. Just health.


----------



## violetgirl (Apr 11, 2011)

TheGame said:


> i agree with violetgirl on this one.
> 
> There is nothing in it besides getting to know your fears and anxieties witch will all wist away once youve recovered. The one thing you will have benefited from going trough it is a feeling of knowing oneself better. witch is probably the best gift anybody could ever have been given.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry I just can't agree with this. I know it helps you to think about DPD in this way to gain some control over it, but you're playing further into the DPD mindset.
Since recovering from DPD, I am a completely different person. I didn't learn anything about myself in the hellish years I had DPD, not one thing, I was too detached and my thought process was disordered. I cannot think of one positive thing I learned from DPD.
I appreciate the little things more since recovering, but I was like that before I got ill.


----------



## TheGame (Feb 1, 2011)

well as i have talked to alot of people here our experiences are different. and some learn the lessons others dont. And sure as i said you might just recover and be exactly the person you where before getting it. But as i also stated i think you WILL think twice after suffering that extra little bit over small things after going trough such a horrifying experience. But then again we are ALL very different and some people become more thankful for what they have. its not an absolute rule ofcourse.

I have found that i change alot of the Co-dependent behaviour that i used to have. I feel more mature in a way. and i also look upon the DP as a learning experience. Learning whats important in life. is it the ruminating or is it the actual living? is it sitting home alone and doing nothing about your fears in life or is it about putting yourself out there and facing up to your demons and crush them with the light of your conciousness?

I will have learned lots because i insist on sitting with every emotion, fear and disturbance or unreal feeling. I will have learned alot.

that it hasnt tought you anything scares me a bit...you went trough extreme fear and dissociation and learned nothing?


----------



## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

violetgirl said:


> I'm sorry I just can't agree with this. I know it helps you to think about DPD in this way to gain some control over it, but you're playing further into the DPD mindset.
> Since recovering from DPD, I am a completely different person. I didn't learn anything about myself in the hellish years I had DPD, not one thing, I was too detached and my thought process was disordered. I cannot think of one positive thing I learned from DPD.
> I appreciate the little things more since recovering, but I was like that before I got ill.


You wrote in another other post that you gained insight into the way you were treated as a child and learned to see how unhealthy some aspects were, isn't that an insight into truth which dp forced you to see? if it wasn't for the suffering of dp perhaps you would still be living in the unreality of your family dynamic, so the suffering drove you to break free didn't it? so the illness of dp had meaning and purpose no? Perhaps i'm wrong but from my perspective that is a huge amount you learned about yourself and perhaps a form of enlightenment or at least a readjustment towards truth, some people go to the grave in their 90's never having faced up to such things.


----------



## TheGame (Feb 1, 2011)

Pablo said:


> You wrote in another other post that you gained insight into the way you were treated as a child and learned to see how unhealthy some aspects were, isn't that an insight into truth which dp forced you to see? if it wasn't for the suffering of dp perhaps you would still be living in the unreality of your family dynamic, so the suffering drove you to break free didn't it? so the illness of dp had meaning and purpose no? Perhaps i'm wrong but from my perspective that is a huge amount you learned about yourself and perhaps a form of enlightenment or at least a readjustment towards truth, some people go to the grave in their 90's never having faced up to such things.


Love this stuff. 
I mean for a person to have gained NOTHING from such suffering would require a great deal of blindness. And as the above poster says most people never get to go trough anything of this magnitude. and i think i WILL keep looking at this as a wakeupcall in alot of areas where have lived unhealthily without giving it much thought as i was always a very energetic and harmoneus person. but with one big issue. mature boundary function!


----------



## Mlags45 (Apr 30, 2010)

violetgirl said:


> I'm sorry I just can't agree with this. I know it helps you to think about DPD in this way to gain some control over it, but you're playing further into the DPD mindset.
> Since recovering from DPD, I am a completely different person. I didn't learn anything about myself in the hellish years I had DPD, not one thing, I was too detached and my thought process was disordered. I cannot think of one positive thing I learned from DPD.
> I appreciate the little things more since recovering, but I was like that before I got ill.


That's just you tho. You're taking your experience with depersonalization and saying that everyone else has to experience the way you did, which is kind of childish. I can guarantee you I've learned a lot about myself, the universe, spirituality. If I never had gotten this I wouldn't have gotten into all the things I did to try to understand myself and the world better. Before this depersonalization I was just going along with life, kind of one foot in life one foot out of it. Depersonalization throws you completely into life and you feel isolated, confused and in despair. It forces you to change your perceptions of life/way of thinking which in the end will most definitely benefit you in life. If you don't think you're a stronger person for going through this and getting out the other side then I guess your experience was not that intense.


----------



## Mlags45 (Apr 30, 2010)

Mushishi said:


> In my opinion... Enlightenment is just symptoms of evolution...


Enlightenment doesn't just happen to you and it has nothing to do with evolution. It takes a lifetime to become enlightened, not a panic attack from smoking weed.


----------



## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Mlags45 said:


> Enlightenment doesn't just happen to you and it has nothing to do with evolution. It takes a lifetime to become enlightened, not a panic attack from smoking weed.


Enlightenment does just happen to you and it has everything to do with evolution. It takes a moment to become enlightened, weed is the sacrament in the oldest religion on Earth called Shaivism. The reason its the sacrament is because it causes pratyahara (sense withdrawal), it is said in the Bhagavad Gita "Pratyahara is the secret to enlightenment."


----------



## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

sunyata samsara said:


> Enlightenment does just happen to you and it has everything to do with evolution. It takes a moment to become enlightened, weed is the sacrament in the oldest religion on Earth called Shaivism. The reason its the sacrament is because it causes pratyahara (sense withdrawal), it is said in the Bhagavad Gita "Pratyahara is the secret to enlightenment."


-11 bahahahaha

u mad?

Looks like yall are afraid of the truth round here.


----------



## violetgirl (Apr 11, 2011)

Mlags45 said:


> That's just you tho. You're taking your experience with depersonalization and saying that everyone else has to experience the way you did, which is kind of childish. I can guarantee you I've learned a lot about myself, the universe, spirituality. If I never had gotten this I wouldn't have gotten into all the things I did to try to understand myself and the world better. Before this depersonalization I was just going along with life, kind of one foot in life one foot out of it. Depersonalization throws you completely into life and you feel isolated, confused and in despair. It forces you to change your perceptions of life/way of thinking which in the end will most definitely benefit you in life. If you don't think you're a stronger person for going through this and getting out the other side then I guess your experience was not that intense.


I went to hell and back with this bullshit, you've got no right to call me childish or saying that my experience wasn't that intense. I'm still now dealing with the effects of having DPD, and the shock of coming back to reality, so maybe my anger is clouding my judgement and i'm not thinking clearly.

I had DP for 20 years. Chronically. 
I spent a lot of time in mental hospitals, suicide attempts, I was an alcoholic. I did horrenous things to myself to prove I was 'real'. Self-harm, poisoning myself.
Maybe short term DP can teach you stuff. My life was OK before it, it didn't teach me anything at all

I just think it's dangerous to romanticise DPD, it's a mental illness, or condition whatever you want to call it. I just want people to not make the same mistakes as I did. Ruminating about DPD and believing it has some kind of purpose is just feeding it, imo. And probably doens't help people who are still in DPD mode. Maybe for some it's a wake-up call, but from what I can see on this forum, is a load of people who are suffering.

Fuck, i just don't know what to think any more.


----------



## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

sunyata samsara said:


> -11 bahahahaha
> 
> u mad?
> 
> Looks like yall are afraid of the truth round here.


People have a huge variation of what they feel is true. As for Shaivism, Buddhism, etc &#8230; I could never make sense of them so cannot venture to evaluate your weed statements. But these are not the types of enlightenment I desire.

DP is like a tornado - a handful of people chase them with great enthrallment but most view them as terribly destructive things, something to dread.

You choose to enjoy your DP. But many here suffer so badly that it just adds to their hurt to hear someone say they like it. Have you ever explored liking it less? (an enlightenment challenge?)


----------



## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Visual Dude said:


> People have a huge variation of what they feel is true. As for Shaivism, Buddhism, etc &#8230; I could never make sense of them so cannot venture to evaluate your weed statements. But these are not the types of enlightenment I desire.
> 
> DP is like a tornado - a handful of people chase them with great enthrallment but most view them as terribly destructive things, something to dread.
> 
> You choose to enjoy your DP. But many here suffer so badly that it just adds to their hurt to hear someone say they like it. Have you ever explored liking it less? (an enlightenment challenge?)


The weed statement is 100% true i assure you.

I wished DP caused me so much terror like most on here. The First Noble Truth in Buddhism is existence is dukkha (suffering). What people dont understand is if you experience the terror enough, you embrace it and intensify it, get absorbed in it it will be experienced as bliss. All experience is like that, i know this for a fact.

I dont enjoy it its just my life ive been like this so long its normal to me lulz and just doesnt bother me. I did notice half the people i met last night could sense it and had a negative response and i heard a girl say as i walked by that guy really creeps me out. lol But the other half had very positive reactions to me.


----------



## Abraxas (Apr 23, 2011)

Brother, Sunyata. You are a seeker of light, you are a seeker of truth. As such, I respect your views. We are all seeking for truth here. When truth is hurled at lie, lie crumbles down and truth prevails. Enlightenment is Absolute Truth, Absolute Knowing. It is the realization of Truth.

By you stating that DP is enlightenment you are assuring that Suffering is Absolute, that Fear is Absolute, that hopelessness is Absolute, that these things are True. How can a state of pain be Absolute truth, absolute Light (En-Light-enment). To be enlightened is to be in the Light, to Know Light through Gnosis, direct experience of God/The-One/Monad/Mind/Godhead or however you like to call that which is All and One and permeates all living beings. That which is Boundless, infinite, unconditional, that which is absolute, Absolute GOOD, as in no error, Absolute Law, absolute Knowing.

About the Buddhist concept of Anatta (No-Self), I wrote this thread just now. 
http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/27187-the-buddhist-lie/

There i posted some really good articles about the misconception and misinterpretation of this word.
Anatta does not mean No-Self, it is an adjective, not a noun, and in the suttras it is used to point out to those things Self is not, Soul is not, Anatta, not-self. There is never a doctrine of no-soul, but one of that which Soul is not! Buddha says: Find refuge in no other than Self.

Now, there is, in my view, a difference between Self and self (person). self is lesser vehicle, is impermanent, is like a mask. In DP, you lose that mask. You are in the desert. The void. But this state is not enlightenment. This is a stage of great suffering and test. Enlightenment is about finding Self. To find the Light of Self, the unmoved mover, the dreamer, the seeker. To deny Self is to deny subjectivity, which is nothing less than ridiculous in my opinion. It is like a man who rides a horse around the world, looking for horses, and as he finds none, he concludes that horses dont exist. Enlightenment is like a sanke biting its tale and becoming Self-aware. Enlightenment is about mind (citta in buddhas words), gathering itself in that which is True, in the Light, in Self (atta).

To deny Self is spiritual suicide, it is nihilism, annihilationism, of which Buddha had to say: 'Nihilists go to terrible hell, from darkness to darkness'.

If you want to get mystical about DP, why dont you look up at something more akin to your culture and language. you do not, DO NOT understand buddhism or Hinduism. But you can try and seek wisdom and guidance in Alchemy, in Gnosticism, in Neoplatonism. This is spirituality and mysticism for the Western Mind. The East is far too subtle for our minds to comprehend and misunderstanding doctrine is very likely to occur. I sincerely ask you to re-consider your view, or at least to withold this kind of comments because ,unknowingly, you may do more harm than good, as there are people here who are doing their best to find their Self, to go home, to feel safe, to feel good.

Even, even if what you say is true, if Self was ilusion... What do you think is the difference between a man who spends all his life saving money to buy say a nice house, and suddenly someone steals this money away from him. Then, as he wanders the streets, pennyless, in great sorrow, he is approached by Guru Sunyata, who, with a big grin on his face assures him: Brother, this is GOOD. Look at all the scriptures here that say that living a humble life is good. Look at all the masters that have abandoned material wealth, you should be happy. This is really the way to enlightenment, to freedom. Whats the difference between that, and a man who WILFULLY, out of a conscious intention, DECIDES to let go of money, to let go of earthly attachments, and moves to the forest to live as an ascetic, to live the humble life. The difference is Wisdom.

in DP, your SOUL is stolen from you. It is a loss, you do not give it away. you do not let go of Self, it is taken from you. it is a loss. it is no spiritual growth, it is not the result of insight and wisdom. You have to BE yourSELF before you decide that it is GOOD to let go of SELF, out of WISDOM GAINED BY EXPERIENCE, not out of reading a book of what some guys said it is right to do, some thousand years ago. Buddha himself said that Nirvana is the product of Gnosis gained by experience, not by accepting scripture.

you may know that Self is ilusion and is best to let go of, by reading scripture and trusting these people, or even if it 'makes sense' to you, but you will never *Know* that Self is ilusion and is best to let go of, until you fully comprehend nature of Self. For that, you need to explore Self, to have Self, to seek refuge in Self. If then you See, through direct insight and experience, that Self is best to be dealt away with, that refuge can not be found in Self, THEN, you let go of Self and embrace this so called nothingness you talk about.

Where is the no-thing in YOU contemplating emptiness? Where is nothingness in a subjective experience? what about the Subject? surely that which is observing is some-thing









Surely Knowlege (Gnosis) of this something is a most valuable gift, far beyond annihilation and oblivion.

May all beings be happy









Love,
Abraxas


----------



## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Abraxas said:


> Brother, Sunyata. You are a seeker of light, you are a seeker of truth. As such, I respect your views. We are all seeking for truth here. When truth is hurled at lie, lie crumbles down and truth prevails. Enlightenment is Absolute Truth, Absolute Knowing. It is the realization of Truth.
> 
> By you stating that DP is enlightenment you are assuring that Suffering is Absolute, that Fear is Absolute, that hopelessness is Absolute, that these things are True. How can a state of pain be Absolute truth, absolute Light (En-Light-enment). To be enlightened is to be in the Light, to Know Light through Gnosis, direct experience of God/The-One/Monad/Mind/Godhead or however you like to call that which is All and One and permeates all living beings. That which is Boundless, infinite, unconditional, that which is absolute, Absolute GOOD, as in no error, Absolute Law, absolute Knowing.
> 
> ...


DP is not enlightenment im saying DP can be considered enlightenment depending on your definition of enlightenment.

I assure you i do understand Buddhism and Hinduism.

I never said Self is illusion but self is illusion yes i know the difference. Buddha never denied Self he denied self im sure you know what im talking about. Self with a capital S is the same as not self because its not really a self it is pure consciousness beyond even terms like existence and non existence.

Nothingness is consciousness, they are one and the same. Consciousness is not a thing it is what produces things, all things are impermanent but consciousness is not, it is not a thing. Buddhism is confusing and can be misunderstood i know its happened to me too lulz. Example Buddhism lists consciousness as one of the five skandhas which needs to be seen for the unreality that it is which is misleading because they mean limited consciousness not unfiltered pure absolute or whatever you want to call it consciousness which is the only thing that exists.


----------



## Abraxas (Apr 23, 2011)

sunyata samsara said:


> DP is not enlightenment im saying DP can be considered enlightenment depending on your definition of enlightenment.
> 
> I assure you i do understand Buddhism and Hinduism.
> 
> ...


hi brother, haha well our exchange seems to be a bit nicer and civilized on this thread.









yes. Self and self. So you agree Buddhism is very confusing. Do you also agree, that people with DP are in a state that would make such readings on Buddhism even more confusing?
Do you also agree that (if it is that you even know what DP is, are you/were you a sufferer?) the DP state is not self-less. There is still a sense of I (self), even though personality/identification with past/plot is gone. then allow this people to recover a healthy sense of self, in place for this one which is full of pain and suffering. DP is definitely NOT the way to Enlightenment. What other definition of Enlightenment than being In the Light? DP = great darkness. Annihilationism is heresy by Buddha, nihilism is heresy by Buddha, he said himself: Nihilists go to terrible hell, from darkness to darkness. look it up. You here, are unknowingly encouraging or suggesting the Annihilationist way. That is the LAST THING PEOPLE WITH DP HAVE TO HEAR. You are giving FALSE direction. Do you realize the consequences of your words? Do you do this to help? to shed some light? or just to prove a point at the expense of others suffering, just to bask on your knowledge.
what IS YOUR INTENTION with these posts? do you really think this things you are saying will HELP people here? By the reputation you are getting it seems, and i might be wrong, that people here either do not understand or do not appreciate or agree with your view. Either way, it seems that you are not shedding any Light here, but frankly and I hope you dont take it personal, you are just displaying your Intelligence and knowledge with an intention that is most motivated by pride than by compassion.

You are adding confusion. I urge you to stop. If you do want to continue a philosophical/metaphysical exchange, i would really like that, as I am interested in your world-view and always appreciate wisdom and new ideas.

This is my email: [email protected]

Peace
Abraxas


----------



## Abraxas (Apr 23, 2011)

sunyata samsara said:


> The weed statement is 100% true i assure you.
> 
> I wished DP caused me so much terror like most on here. The First Noble Truth in Buddhism is existence is dukkha (suffering). What people dont understand is if you experience the terror enough, you embrace it and intensify it, get absorbed in it it will be experienced as bliss. All experience is like that, i know this for a fact.
> 
> I dont enjoy it its just my life ive been like this so long its normal to me lulz and just doesnt bother me. I did notice half the people i met last night could sense it and had a negative response and i heard a girl say as i walked by that guy really creeps me out. lol But the other half had very positive reactions to me.


brother Stop giving false directions. Dukkha is NOT suffering. It is more like un-ease, not-perfect. DP is a bit more than un-ease, it is full-blown pain. Though according to Buddhist doctrine, an elevated state of being (say joy, happiness, elation, or simply being relaxed, like a healthy individual), is also dukkha. But within the supposed all-pervadingness of Dukkha, DP is HELL compared to being healthy, so stop selling it as something good when the opposite is true.

About the ''if you experience the terror enough, you embrace it and intensify it, get absorbed in it it will be experienced as bliss.'' Did that happen to you?
Do you know what really happened? You overloaded your left Amygdala with Pain and Fear and it just simply f**king fried, channeling all that electrical flow to the left Amygdala which caused your state of bliss. Your emotionlessness is the result of a fried amygdala. Now you could go out and suggest people to remove their right amygdala as a way to enlightenment.!

i say this with my even holding idealist beliefs, do not take it literally im just trying to make a point here: Fear is not the way to enlightenment, suffering is not the way to enlightenment. Love is the way to enlightenment. you seem to lack it. 
if you are on a train towards annihilation of Self, may you rest in peace in oblivion, but stop dragging people with you, people here want to be, they want to know Love.

if i am wrong, and you are full of compassion as Buddha was (maybe love doesnt qualify as an emotion to you? and you are full of self-less love although you are emotionless?),then i do apologize, but to be honest your words do not seem to come from the heart but from your... left fronto-temporal lobe?







its just a fancy play on words, which is confusing and not helpful.

anyway bro, im actually sorry im kind of playing with you, im sure you are good and wise in your own way, but still, please stop misguiding people with your views.

Peace
Abraxas


----------



## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

sunyata samsara said:


> The weed statement is 100% true i assure you.
> 
> I wished DP caused me so much terror like most on here. The First Noble Truth in Buddhism is existence is dukkha (suffering). What people dont understand is if you experience the terror enough, you embrace it and intensify it, get absorbed in it it will be experienced as bliss. All experience is like that, i know this for a fact.
> 
> I dont enjoy it its just my life ive been like this so long its normal to me lulz and just doesnt bother me. I did notice half the people i met last night could sense it and had a negative response and i heard a girl say as i walked by that guy really creeps me out. lol But the other half had very positive reactions to me.


*&#8230;if you experience the terror enough, you embrace it and intensify it, get absorbed in it it will be experienced as bliss.*

This statement is revealing. It is 'classical' abuse conditioning. It is a survival technique. When I was abused as a child, it was so bad I had to start enjoying it to survive &#8230; there was no choice &#8230; but now I am free and have choice and no longer enjoy such pain &#8230; the ability to do so saved my life, but it is just a tool - and one I hope never to have to use again.

Perhaps it is fine that you have learned to focus energy and feel a sort of bliss. But while you say you enjoy the DP stuff, you do not seem to be truly happy. It is almost like you are trapped in your pain and this is how you survive. As you don't enjoy it, why not consider another way.


----------



## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Abraxas said:


> hi brother, haha well our exchange seems to be a bit nicer and civilized on this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Buddhism is hella confusing. I love it cause its the ultimate riddle and understanding of that riddle brings enlightenment.


----------



## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Abraxas said:


> brother Stop giving false directions. Dukkha is NOT suffering. It is more like un-ease, not-perfect. DP is a bit more than un-ease, it is full-blown pain. Though according to Buddhist doctrine, an elevated state of being (say joy, happiness, elation, or simply being relaxed, like a healthy individual), is also dukkha. But within the supposed all-pervadingness of Dukkha, DP is HELL compared to being healthy, so stop selling it as something good when the opposite is true.
> 
> About the ''if you experience the terror enough, you embrace it and intensify it, get absorbed in it it will be experienced as bliss.'' Did that happen to you?
> Do you know what really happened? You overloaded your left Amygdala with Pain and Fear and it just simply f**king fried, channeling all that electrical flow to the left Amygdala which caused your state of bliss. Your emotionlessness is the result of a fried amygdala. Now you could go out and suggest people to remove their right amygdala as a way to enlightenment.!
> ...


Dukkha means unsatisfactory.

Yes it happenes to me, when i embrace any experience and try to dive into it completely. I only used that as an example any sensation can be used in place of terror.

Love is a way to enlightenment, probably the best.

Im no Buddha it takes me hours a meditation and then maybe i get possessed by love but i have DP so of course im an emotional retard.

I am a Buddhist, Buddhism has no view you are the one saying Buddhism is wrong, how can it be Buddhism has no views to be wrong about. The beginning and end of Buddhism is Right View which mean no view.


----------



## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Visual Dude said:


> *&#8230;if you experience the terror enough, you embrace it and intensify it, get absorbed in it it will be experienced as bliss.*
> 
> This statement is revealing. It is 'classical' abuse conditioning. It is a survival technique. When I was abused as a child, it was so bad I had to start enjoying it to survive &#8230; there was no choice &#8230; but now I am free and have choice and no longer enjoy such pain &#8230; the ability to do so saved my life, but it is just a tool - and one I hope never to have to use again.
> 
> Perhaps it is fine that you have learned to focus energy and feel a sort of bliss. But while you say you enjoy the DP stuff, you do not seem to be truly happy. It is almost like you are trapped in your pain and this is how you survive. As you don't enjoy it, why not consider another way.


I only used terror as an example it can be any experience.


----------



## Abraxas (Apr 23, 2011)

oh, i didnt read that about you being abused as a child. I am sorry. But anyway, that amygdala thing i didnt make it up, check it out:

you will like this.

Enlightenment & the Brain

I did not say that Buddhism is wrong, only that Modern Buddhism is not what Buddha orgininally taught.


----------



## Abraxas (Apr 23, 2011)

sunyata samsara said:


> Im no Buddha it takes me hours a meditation and then maybe i get possessed by love but i have DP so of course im an emotional retard.












It is ok to value love more than knowledge. At least I do. I rather not know and feel love, than know and feel empty/neutral.


----------



## violetgirl (Apr 11, 2011)

Pablo said:


> You wrote in another other post that you gained insight into the way you were treated as a child and learned to see how unhealthy some aspects were, isn't that an insight into truth which dp forced you to see? if it wasn't for the suffering of dp perhaps you would still be living in the unreality of your family dynamic, so the suffering drove you to break free didn't it? so the illness of dp had meaning and purpose no? Perhaps i'm wrong but from my perspective that is a huge amount you learned about yourself and perhaps a form of enlightenment or at least a readjustment towards truth, some people go to the grave in their 90's never having faced up to such things.


I can't look at my DP as some kind of learning experience, because if I attach anything remotely positive to it, it comes back. So I have to keep hating it, to keep it away. 
I had it for most of my life, not as a short term condition, so my experiences are different from a lot of people on here, which I've only just started to realise.

Lots of people have 'wake up' calls, car accidents, cancer, death in the family etc, doesn't mean it's a good thing. Just that people try to put a positive spin on it, to make sense of it.

Saying DP is enlightenment, is just going to make people worse, and feeds into the DP, and the rumination.

I'm just saying this, because as a recovered DPer, I just don't want people making the same mistakes I did when I had it. I'm not being malicious or anything.


----------



## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

violetgirl said:


> I can't look at my DP as some kind of learning experience, because if I attach anything remotely positive to it, it comes back. So I have to keep hating it, to keep it away.
> I had it for most of my life, not as a short term condition, so my experiences are different from a lot of people on here, which I've only just started to realise.
> 
> Lots of people have 'wake up' calls, car accidents, cancer, death in the family etc, doesn't mean it's a good thing. Just that people try to put a positive spin on it, to make sense of it.
> ...


I like your post









It is also interesting that *if I attach anything remotely positive to it, it comes back.*

This is not so with me, but the only positives I have felt are, not the condition, but things learned about neuro-physiology and broad emotional healing. (am an odd duck)

Keep up the progress


----------



## Guest (May 19, 2011)

Abraxas said:


> *in DP, your SOUL is stolen from you*. It is a loss, you do not give it away. you do not let go of Self, it is taken from you. it is a loss. it is no spiritual growth, it is not the result of insight and wisdom. You have to *BE yourSELF before you decide that it is GOOD to let go of SELF*, out of *WISDOM GAINED BY EXPERIENCE*, not out of reading a book of what some guys said it is right to do, some thousand years ago. Buddha himself said that Nirvana is the product of Gnosis gained by experience, not by accepting scripture.


agree.


----------



## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

violetgirl said:


> I can't look at my DP as some kind of learning experience, because if I attach anything remotely positive to it, it comes back. So I have to keep hating it, to keep it away.
> I had it for most of my life, not as a short term condition, so my experiences are different from a lot of people on here, which I've only just started to realise.


They say whatever you resist persists, I have found hating dp makes it worse and keeps it in my life not the other way around, not that I follow my own advice as I still resist my problems all the time which is probably why I still have them, although I can't speak for everyone of course whatever works for the individual is good.



> Lots of people have 'wake up' calls, car accidents, cancer, death in the family etc, doesn't mean it's a good thing. Just that people try to put a positive spin on it, to make sense of it.
> 
> Saying DP is enlightenment, is just going to make people worse, and feeds into the DP, and the rumination.
> 
> I'm just saying this, because as a recovered DPer, I just don't want people making the same mistakes I did when I had it. I'm not being malicious or anything.


The positive perspective is just as valid a perspective as any other, in balance I think it is best to take all perspectives you can into account otherwise negative events can become overwhelming, that's not denying reality or putting spin on anything rather it is opening up to a wider less limited reality of the situation, you don't discount the negative effects of trauma and events in any way rather you just widen your perspective.

Not that i'm trying to deny your experience on things or criticise how you deal with things, this is just the way I see it


----------



## violetgirl (Apr 11, 2011)

Visual Dude said:


> I like your post
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks.
I think trying to work out my DP on this forum, was a bad idea. Not because of anyone else's fault, but because I'm not ready to process it all, engaging in discussions that are triggering me off.

Yeah, if I start to think of DP as anything but a bad thing, it comes back and tricks me into believing that DP is real etc. Such a mindfuck! So that's probaly why I should stay away from any of these types of discussions lol

I'm still DP-free, so I'm working on gettin well again, although it's been hard.


----------



## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

violetgirl said:


> Thanks.
> I think trying to work out my DP on this forum, was a bad idea. Not because of anyone else's fault, but because I'm not ready to process it all, engaging in discussions that are triggering me off.
> 
> Yeah, if I start to think of DP as anything but a bad thing, it comes back and tricks me into believing that DP is real etc. Such a mindfuck! So that's probaly why I should stay away from any of these types of discussions lol
> ...


Don't feel bad. You are really doing well. It isn't necessary to process the views of everyone - just your own.

It isn't necessary to find good in a bad experience because some may do so.

Finding peace and enjoyable things that you can do now and the next day will aid you more than anything.


----------



## violetgirl (Apr 11, 2011)

Visual Dude said:


> Don't feel bad. You are really doing well. It isn't necessary to process the views of everyone - just your own.
> 
> It isn't necessary to find good in a bad experience because some may do so.
> 
> Finding peace and enjoyable things that you can do now and the next day will aid you more than anything.


Yeah, you're totally right.

I think that's it for me, I had this thing for so long, and I've been searching for some meaning or something to it all, and I just can't find it. I guess I was just unlucky.

It's kind of a shock to go from living a life where DP/ OCD was almost like my religion, thinking everything had a meaning and it ruling my life. To total nothingness, everything just happens, I just am etc. A complete turn around!


----------



## geronimo88 (May 16, 2011)

> DP is enlightenment


Some people say the same thing about depression. If either group is right, enlightenment is overrated.


----------



## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

Enlightenment is being more conscious. DP is being less conscious.


----------



## lil P nut (May 7, 2011)

Many people who are trying to become "enlightened" or awakened run into depersonalization along the way. Many people say if you accept the dp and what is happening in the mooment, the symptoms will soon subside and you will be clearer and more focused than ever.


----------



## Guest (Jun 4, 2011)

violetgirl said:


> Lots of people have 'wake up' calls, car accidents, cancer, death in the family etc, doesn't mean it's a good thing. Just that people try to put a positive spin on it, to make sense of it.


if you're a negative person, nothing is a good thing. people who 'try to put a positive spin on it' maybe realized something you haven't.

but there's NOTHING, absoluetly NOTHING in this world that a negative person couldn't turn into some "problem" or look at it from a negative and depressing perspective.

but it's not the world that's depressing, it's the person. everybody sees the world through themselves.


----------



## violetgirl (Apr 11, 2011)

Lowrey said:


> if you're a negative person, nothing is a good thing. people who 'try to put a positive spin on it' maybe realized something you haven't.
> 
> but there's NOTHING, absoluetly NOTHING in this world that a negative person couldn't turn into some "problem" or look at it from a negative and depressing perspective.
> 
> but it's not the world that's depressing, it's the person. everybody sees the world through themselves.


No, the difference that i'm making is this.

Saying that DP in itself is enlightenment is wrong. And thinking it gives you some special insight is playing into the DP/ OCD mentallity loops about religon, why are we here etc. It will only get worse. DP in itself is not a nice thing to have.

After having DP, you will no doubt get some kind of enlightenment, as people usually do after having horrible events. Which is fine and normal. You have to be come to sort of enlightenment to recover, it goes hand in hand. Recovering from it, you will be enlightened, actually having it, you are not. There's a difference.

But posting on a forum that the condition people have is 'enlightenment', where people are still suffering with DP, and coming up with all sorts of things to understand how they feel, is irresponsible, and doesn't help at all. And saying DP in iteslf is enlightenment and gives them some kind of special insight into the world, is not true. As many people on here have said, DP is the opposite. It cuts you off, and you go into yourself.

I'm not a negative person, just realistic.


----------



## Guest (Jun 4, 2011)

violetgirl said:


> No, the difference that i'm making is this.
> 
> Saying that DP in itself is enlightenment is wrong. And thinking it gives you some special insight is playing into the DP/ OCD mentallity loops about religon, why are we here etc. It will only get worse. DP in itself is not a nice thing to have.
> 
> ...


I may didn't understand you correctly. I don't think DP is anything near enlightenment.

But I'm 100% sure it has a meaning. It's a wake up call.

But it's not enlightenment (whatever that means).

It's a chance where you can "wake up" and set yourself free. It forces you to work on yourself and face your fears.


----------



## violetgirl (Apr 11, 2011)

Lowrey said:


> I may didn't understand you correctly. I don't think DP is anything near enlightenment.
> 
> But I'm 100% sure it has a meaning. It's a wake up call.
> 
> ...


No worries.

Yeah i agree with you totally. You have to like get some kind of enlightenment to get rid of DP and you will feel really differenly afterwards.

I think the difference is though, between long term DP and short term DP. I had it for most of my life, but short term for sure, it would change you. Gives you a sign that something is up.


----------



## cris24333 (Oct 30, 2010)

is there a difference from this dp and enlightenment cuz dp is something wrong with our brain. more vivid dreams, no emotions, sleep paralysis


----------



## Guest (Jun 13, 2011)

Visual Dude said:


> People have a huge variation of what they feel is true. As for Shaivism, Buddhism, etc &#8230; I could never make sense of them so cannot venture to evaluate your weed statements. But these are not the types of enlightenment I desire.
> 
> DP is like a tornado - a handful of people chase them with great enthrallment but most view them as terribly destructive things, something to dread.
> 
> You choose to enjoy your DP. But many here suffer so badly that it just adds to their hurt to hear someone say they like it. Have you ever explored liking it less? (an enlightenment challenge?)


Yer such a silly buns Visual Dude. Well, we are all silly buns. Sunyata is maybe just a bit cooler of a silly buns.

Derp de derrr.


----------



## abc1i7849 (Jun 17, 2011)

Personally, I don't really think Depersonalization/Derealization is 'enlightenment'.

It seems like DP/DR blocks out emotions and that a more 'enlightened' person would be able to deal with the emotions rather than block them out. I'm not sure, though, because dp/dr still kind of confuses me.


----------



## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

ItCouldBeRobots said:


> Yer such a silly buns Visual Dude. Well, we are all silly buns. Sunyata is maybe just a bit cooler of a silly buns.
> 
> Derp de derrr.


You caught me









Just can't help trying to tempt Sunyata to just try the dark side ... (if only just a taste) ... hiss, hiss, hisssss... Just FEEL the anger in your veins, FEEL the POWER! ...










Confessions of an assassin, my real portrait


----------



## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Visual said:


> You caught me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who says im not on the dark side?

I have only one tattoo and its the symbol for the left hand path over my heart. Which is also an esoteric Buddhist symbol for nirvana which makes you think since Buddhism considers itself the middle path.


----------



## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

sunyata samsara said:


> Who says im not on the dark side?
> 
> I have only one tattoo and its the symbol for the left hand path over my heart. Which is also an esoteric Buddhist symbol for nirvana which makes you think since Buddhism considers itself the middle path.


They say the grass is greener on the other side [ but who are 'they' ]

Which side is darker?

Humm &#8230; *Buddhism considers itself the middle path* &#8230; does that mean Buddhism is grey?









Oh oh ... Sorry friend, but I just ran out of cookies. Take care


----------



## gill (Jul 1, 2010)

"DP is enlightenment"

Okay. Welp, enlightenment really blows then..... hehe


----------



## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Visual said:


> They say the grass is greener on the other side [ but who are 'they' ]
> 
> Which side is darker?
> 
> ...


The left hand path is considered darker because they practice all spiritual practices not just the ones that are socially acceptable in your culture.

The exoteric meaning of the middle path is that it avoids the extremes of the left hand and right hand paths. The esoteric meaning is it represents the sushumna aka the spine where you channel energy into your brain causing enlightenment.

I cant has no cookies?


----------



## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

sunyata samsara said:


> The left hand path is considered darker because they practice all spiritual practices not just the ones that are socially acceptable in your culture.
> 
> The exoteric meaning of the middle path is that it avoids the extremes of the left hand and right hand paths. The esoteric meaning is it represents the sushumna aka the spine where you channel energy into your brain causing enlightenment.
> 
> I cant has no cookies?


*The left hand path is considered darker&#8230;*

So &#8230; greyer?









Is this part of the caste system?










*&#8230; it avoids the extremes&#8230;*

So these guys do the socially acceptable stuff plus a little bit more? And the 'right handers' only do the socially acceptable stuff?

Or is it the middle do just the socially acceptable stuff and the right do almost nothing?

What would be examples of socially unacceptable Buddhist spiritual practice?

*I cant has no cookies?*

OK, hears ya go - sum getz reals happiez with dez hears browneez


----------



## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Visual said:


> *The left hand path is considered darker&#8230;*
> 
> So &#8230; greyer?
> 
> ...


You could call it greyer, it depends how extreme left hand path we are talking about. A good example of a practice is smoking weed while meditating which is equivalent to a bodybuilder using steroids. Then theres really extreme practices like the Aghoris who eat the dead in rituals and always eat and drink out of a human skull. Middle path just mean they dont go to the extremes of torturing themselves for spiritual gain. An example of extreme right hand path would be a guy who holds one arm in the air for a dozen years.

I use to smoke weed and meditate that would be considered an unacceptable Buddhist practice. Buddhism was designed to be able to exist in any culture. Cannabis is the sacrament in the left hand path.


----------



## snow storm (Aug 10, 2010)

violetgirl said:


> After having DP, you will no doubt get some kind of enlightenment, as people usually do after having horrible events. Which is fine and normal. You have to be come to sort of enlightenment to recover, it goes hand in hand. Recovering from it, you will be enlightened, actually having it, you are not. There's a difference.


This is exactly what it feels like to me.


----------



## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

sunyata samsara said:


> You could call it greyer, it depends how extreme left hand path we are talking about. A good example of a practice is smoking weed while meditating which is equivalent to a bodybuilder using steroids. Then theres really extreme practices like the Aghoris who eat the dead in rituals and always eat and drink out of a human skull. Middle path just mean they dont go to the extremes of torturing themselves for spiritual gain. An example of extreme right hand path would be a guy who holds one arm in the air for a dozen years.
> 
> I use to smoke weed and meditate that would be considered an unacceptable Buddhist practice. Buddhism was designed to be able to exist in any culture. Cannabis is the sacrament in the left hand path.


Yeah but what the Buddha said was that the left and right hand paths don't lead to the end of suffering, only the middle way does, and he practised various forms of extreme practises for many years and they didn't get him anywhere, so if you believe that the Buddha was correct then that means that using Cannabis as a sacrament will only lead to more suffering.


----------



## Abraxas (Apr 23, 2011)

Fuck the Buddha. He was a racist, cold, detached egotistical fuck who abandoned his newborn child and wife, looked down upon black people calling them 'demons', and said women where stupid and would never attain enlightenment.

Regardless, to everyone here being confused about Self-No Self, what i say might sound naive, but: let go of the burden of enlightenment. Everytime you think 'I should enlight', or ponder about enlightenment and feel sorry for your state of 'ignorance', you are actually moving away from enlightenment (if there really is such a thing) at a very fast speed.
You carry the rock of enlightenment, it is such a burden, always wishing for perfection and never satisfied with your self.

or to seek oblivion, no-self. that is sick. if you want to end your pain then you let go of fear. only fear keeps you in pain. Fear of self and fear of samsara (compared to Nirvana) is what fucks your mind. fear to err, fear of trodding the wrong path.

and behold, the Buddha shows you his scriptures. why would he lie, he is so noble! i shall put an end to myself! i shall go against my hearts desires! I will carry the burden of enlightenment and look down at life with contempt. for i am 'wise', for I follow the Enlightened One, the aryan path!

Also, sunyata, by the way, recently I had some conversations on the phone with a Buddhist scholar and he said that the practice that you once told me about (actively detaching from senses) is 'metaphysical suicide', and Buddha stayed away from such currents as he knew it way ucchevada heresy, annihilationism/nihilism.

the difference is sublime but quite revealing: In Buddhism, one detaches from sense perceptions (and apparently from self) not actively, but as a direct and natural result of wisdom and insight. When you actively try to detach from senses (or self), you are not doing so out of wisdom/insight, what you are doing is self-mortification, to go against what you desire. Never did the Buddha say: go against desires, extinguish desires. But desires are naturally extinguished as a by-product of wisdom and insight. What you have here is people _reading _ about 'truth', 'trusting' that it is truth (without seeing it for themselves), and doing that which in those who See is a natural product of having seen. What you do then is a superficial and fruitless imitation that leads to more suffering and ignorance.

its like a person who achieves a state of bliss and euphoria, and out of that rush/flow of energy he paints a beautiful painting. Then a man, wishing to achieve that same state of bliss, does his best to copy that painting, to paint that same picture, making sure he uses same colours, etc. By actively detaching from senses/self you are trying to reverse-engineer the truth that buddha discovered. which is stupid and fruitless to say the least.
peace


----------



## TheGame (Feb 1, 2011)

Dp is as another person on here said. enlightenments dark brother. The ego's darkest hour. 
Some psychotics are considered wise men. because of their extreme thoughts and distorted realities they come to "insights" akin to enlightened thinking. Only the difference beeing that is because of their broken and chaotic brains. enlightened brains are the most beautiful brains on this planet. And function the best of all brains ever scanned.

The oposite beeing psychotic brains. witch are broken and destroyed. Thats why psychotic people live 40% shorter lives than the normal population. In most cases that is. enlightened zen buddhists are said to age the most gracefull on this planet.


----------



## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Pablo said:


> Yeah but what the Buddha said was that the left and right hand paths don't lead to the end of suffering, only the middle way does, and he practised various forms of extreme practises for many years and they didn't get him anywhere, so if you believe that the Buddha was correct then that means that using Cannabis as a sacrament will only lead to more suffering.


Just like others Buddha taught what worked for him. There are stories that Buddha took Cannabis every day for 6 years until enlightenment, its just not known in the mainstream. Buddha was a Sadhu the holy men who renounce everything and live in the wilderness doing nothing but smoking weed and meditating.


----------



## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Abraxas said:


> Fuck the Buddha. He was a racist, cold, detached egotistical fuck who abandoned his newborn child and wife, looked down upon black people calling them 'demons', and said women where stupid and would never attain enlightenment.
> 
> Regardless, to everyone here being confused about Self-No Self, what i say might sound naive, but: let go of the burden of enlightenment. Everytime you think 'I should enlight', or ponder about enlightenment and feel sorry for your state of 'ignorance', you are actually moving away from enlightenment (if there really is such a thing) at a very fast speed.
> You carry the rock of enlightenment, it is such a burden, always wishing for perfection and never satisfied with your self.
> ...


I feel sorry for that Buddhist scholar, he obviously doesnt know enlightenment.


----------



## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

Could it be that some people are experiencing DP/DR because they are in between an ego state of mind and Oneness with all that is?


----------



## Mario (Oct 26, 2009)

It´s very hard for me to accept the idea of DP being some kind of enlightment.

What kind of enlighment causes you so much suffering,so much pain,so much dissociation...so much darkness!
The only enlightment i can see here,is the strengh that we are all having for so many years fighting against this thing that even the devil rejected.

Much better days, is what i honestly wish to you all ,my DP friends.

Mario


----------



## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

sunyata samsara said:


> Just like others Buddha taught what worked for him. There are stories that Buddha took Cannabis every day for 6 years until enlightenment, its just not known in the mainstream. Buddha was a Sadhu the holy men who renounce everything and live in the wilderness doing nothing but smoking weed and meditating.


Where did he get the money to live like that? Or did he grow the stuff along with vegetables?


----------



## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Visual said:


> Where did he get the money to live like that? Or did he grow the stuff along with vegetables?


Buddha was from northern India and it grows wild out there. All sadhu's use cannabis.


----------



## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

surfingisfun001 said:


> Could it be that some people are experiencing DP/DR because they are in between an ego state of mind and Oneness with all that is?


I think so.


----------



## resonantblue (Mar 15, 2011)

surfingisfun001 said:


> Could it be that some people are experiencing DP/DR because they are in between an ego state of mind and Oneness with all that is?


yes, I have been thinkings along the same lines lately, especially since many people who meditate or children who stare in mirror experience brief episodes of DP. For some reason, I feel like I will be completely transformed when I "cure" my DP. I also at times feel like the DP is my ego's reaction to what it perceives as being "crushed by its own insignificance"- in other words, that the realization of Oneness, is for the ego, intolerable, hence DP and anxiety in an attempt to fight it


----------



## Guest (Jul 25, 2011)

surfingisfun001 said:


> Could it be that some people are experiencing DP/DR because they are in between an ego state of mind and Oneness with all that is?


the "onness with all is" state just doesn't exist. "enlightenment" is nothing more than any moment you're not wasted in thought, and just "be".

there's no superhuman state. so you can't be between this and that.

DP/DR is NOT anything "enlightenment", accept it and close this stupid thread.


----------



## violetgirl (Apr 11, 2011)

Lowrey said:


> the "onness with all is" state just doesn't exist. "enlightenment" is nothing more than any moment you're not wasted in thought, and just "be".
> 
> there's no superhuman state. so you can't be between this and that.
> 
> DP/DR is NOT anything "enlightenment", accept it and close this stupid thread.


I know that people are looking for a reason for DP and possibly avoiding painful feelings. I'm not mocking people who want to believe this, because DP does play tricks on you.

But really, threads like these are such a bad idea, it doesn't help people progress or get the help they need. DP/ DR is an emotional problem, nothing religious or spiritual.


----------



## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

Well, I don't think DP is enlightenment - but why close the thread?

Several people on this forum say they got DPed from deep meditation. Some after being told they are going to hell.

There can be benefits to thinking about philosophies as long as one doesn't obsess.

From a 'psychological' point, stability of emotions depends on becoming grounded. If there are serious concerns about a particular philosophy, then one should address their concern. Otherwise the uncertainty just feeds fear/anxiety.

It is also important to realize that not having all the answers now is ok. Knowledge is a growing process as you experience more things though time - this is true of everyone.

Learning to be at peace within oneself while continuing to explore life is vital.

Achieving this takes time and effort just like physical exercise or learning a skill. And gaining balance is like learning to ride a bicycle.

DP may not be enlightenment, but it can be _enlightening_ - forcing one to reevaluate their life, learn to live with DP, and figure out how to get well - [ to quote *foghat*, "_I've had dp for years and never saw any improvement until this past year when I proactively searched for and worked a plan toward recovery._" ]

Hey, I don't agree with *sunyata samsara*, (and have even tried to bribe him with cookies) - but let the thread roll on.


----------



## Abraxas (Apr 23, 2011)

edit: I deleted my post because it was too vague and a bit clumsy.

I elaborated on my view on discoursive thought here, if anyone is interested







:

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28457-four-demons/


----------



## blah421 (Jul 18, 2009)

DP is delusion


----------



## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

blah421 said:


> DP is delusion


No, it is much more _illusion_, though DP/DR is very real

_"A thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses"_

_"an erroneous mental representation"_

_"An illusion is a distortion of the senses, revealing how the brain normally organizes and interprets sensory stimulation."_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion

_"A deceptive appearance or impression"_

_"Perceptions created in the visual system and brain that differ from the "objective" environment as measured by physical instruments."_

_"a false perception; the mistaking of something for what is not."_

_"perceptual experiences, through the senses, that are not true representations of the physical event"_


----------



## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Quote from the Buddha: "Nirvana as a nightmare of daytime."

http://www.ashidakim...buddhaszen.html


----------



## Guest (Oct 16, 2012)

I think like any issues encountered in life, it is an opportunity for personalizing and for realizing areas in life that were once lacking.
We all must face obstacles and overcome them in order to grow as individuals in the world.


----------



## Abraxas (Apr 23, 2011)

sunyata samsara said:


> Quote from the Buddha: "Nirvana as a nightmare of daytime."
> 
> http://www.ashidakim...buddhaszen.html


lol sunyata, you still arguing for this??? been some time man


----------



## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Hells yeah bruh.



sunyata samsara said:


> Quote from the Buddha: "Nirvana as a nightmare of daytime."
> 
> http://www.ashidakim...buddhaszen.html


Read the last paragraph in red, its a poem from an enlightened being about the highest level of enlightenment. The link is to the 7 States of Turya aka enlightenment. I think DP/DR is similar to the 3rd and 4th states of turya.

http://universalshaivafellowship.org/usf/teachings_01ch16.html


----------



## xxmdogxx (Jun 26, 2012)

sunyata samsara said:


> A student once told his teacher "I want to be enlightened." The Zen Master responded "Why? You might not like it."
> 
> I just read Profound Buddhism for the 4th time today and it blew my mind more than ever and im sure your head would explode if you read it. It talks constantly of emptiness of mind which yall talk about. Here are some quotes from the book...
> 
> ...


See I don't know how ANYBODY can derive spirituality from having DP or DR it doesn't make any sense and if you still can get DP DR from this experience than you just don't have it that bad period. There is nothing spiritual about this, maybe psychedelic but not spiritual . Email me if anyone wants to talk. [email protected]


----------



## aquabella (Sep 16, 2011)

There is a lot of misinformation and confusion about DP/DR and its possible relationship to spiritual and/or religious development. There are numerous developmental theories that have been created, identified with and practiced: psychological/cognitive, social/moral, and spirituality/religion. Most, if not all, of them describe and identify a stage of or state in development that epitomizes, even embodies, the DP/DR experience.

This post is strictly an unbiased look at these developmental stages and their states where DP/DR is present. I have done a lot of research on DP/DR in hopes to find relief from my own DP/DR struggles. I don't advocate, condone or align my self any one theory or philosophy, but have found some comfort and a more playful attitude toward reality discovering the similarities between them and the mythos within them all. The discovery of connection may well be what has helped me on my way toward complete recovery.

To use an example of one of the such possible theories, I have chosen to contrast Depersonalization with relationship to Buddhist states and stages toward attaining enlightenment.

*States - Termed 'Jhana' in Buddhism - loosely translated, means: 
condition/conditions/conditioning, where you are "at" in mind and/or body--state of being, area of concentration, learning/training/, task or practice, perceived experience (non judgmental feelings/emotions), concentration, acceptance vs. resistance levels of a situation, meditation. Jhanas are neither good or bad and can be used as tools for self-reflection.

Different states (Jhanas) can be eased into or quickly 'triggered' in ANY stage and at any time. Jhanas are temporary - distortions in conceptual time and space; temporal momentum interruption - and unfixed, meaning more than one Jhana can be experienced at a time and more than one person can share the same state individually and/or with one another even if the internal/external conditions which triggered them are very different.

Where, when, how, and why a certain Jhana is experienced depends on where our awareness is concentrated: internal/external environment. The intensity of the Jhana largely depends on the level of ease vs. difficulty with and acceptance vs. resistance of the lessons being learned in the current Nana.

**Stages - Termed 'Nana' in Buddhism - loosely translated, means: 
'knowledge of', insight, conviction and wisdom. A Nana is a marking point or turning point of spiritual transition (or cognitive development). Once a stage (Nana) is completed it becomes embodied knowledge and you will not back slide into an earlier (or lower) stage.

Think: you 'know' how to ride a bike, tie your shoes, recite the alphabet - There is no longer a need to concentrate on or practice doing - you just DO it. There are approx. 16 Nanas -- Nanas 1 through 4
are the lower Nanas and are considered stages of Self 'awakening'/Knowledge of Being Self as Self and is the process of becoming aware of spirituality (the Divine) as we awaken to and gain 
knowledge of our identifications of Self. Whereas the highers Nanas, 5 through 15, are considered to be spiritually awakened stages - practitioners in these stages assert well-defined, working or functioning assumptions in a philosophy, opinion or spiritual belief and is the process of becoming spiritually 'enlightened'.

The long, sometimes difficult, even downright frustrating (this is a state/jhana) process of enlightenment ends at the completion of the 15th Nana where "Nirvana" is attained. The 16 Nana IS "enlightenment"; enlightenment is "IS-ness" embodied and is more of a perpetual state of being than it is a stage of development.

Here's a great link on the stages:
http://www.buddhanet.net/knowledg.htm

I'm going to make a bold statement...Depersonalization is NOT spiritual enlightenment! It is not even defined as a stage (Nana) of enlightenment. According to many sects of Buddhism, the initial 
experiences of the DP/DR state (jhana) are short in length (minutes to days/weeks) and sometimes fleeting; they begin to occur in the 2nd Nana (the stage of cause and effect); yet are still temporary. After the 2nd stage, when you have embodied the lesson of 'cause and effect' and learn to take personal responsibility for EVERYTHING in life that your 'self' creates, the 3rd Nana comes in to challenge that lesson with the Three Characteristics: impermanence, suffering,and no-self (very DP/DR, No?).

The 3rd nana is characterized by the words deconstruction and de-condition. The DP/DR moments are long (weeks, months years), seems like a permanent condition, as the moments are chronic and are not fleeting. In the 3rd Nana the DP/DR Jhana, too, is EXTREMELY dark, cryptic, and lonely--BUT WORSE, because there doesn't seem to be an end to it! But, IMHO, this is the lesson--Learning to 'let go' of your previous mental construct and its conditioning.

Up until this point all of what you "know" about the universe is your sensory input and has been polar in opposition (good/bad, right/wrong, black/white, male/female). With (the state of) DP/DR messing up your sensory input (emotions, feelings, sense of self, etc...) you are forced to learn to know the universe as it is in itself (for example: do you "know" the apple is sweet and juicy? No... but you are inclined to ASSUME it is).

Nothing is 'personal' in DP, so you are forced into learning how to "know" a thing without interpreting, judging, labeling, identifying or picking it apart; you simply see, touch, taste, smell, hear (and to some - intuit) without judgement and without emotion.

When you 'feel' neither good or bad about something or indifferent about it, you are at the beginning of passing through the 3rd Nana--this is the experience of non-duality (be mindful that indifference is NOT apathy; apathy is a negative state of feeling, is depression and NOT DP).

At the very base, this Nana teaches realignment with the deepest of instinct and sense recognition (gut feelings): away from/toward, repel/propel, repulse/impulse, safety/risk. This may be a lesson to learn to have more trust in or belief in our self from a physiological perspective (remember...in DP/DR emotions and feelings no longer exist; or seem to - this is psychological). These lessons start with 'self' and in progression extends to the universe upon entering into the 4th Nana.

This Nana is called the Arising and Passing Away of things (AP for short), as impermanence and fleeting experiences become more and more apparent in a 'factual' way rather than in its previously futile way. The build up to 'letting go' of the futility is the most difficult, frustrating and tumultuous to persevere in. It can take months to many years to pass through the 4th Nana and is surpassed in what is "the AP Event".

Perceived by many to be nearly impossible to get through and has been described as: like a nervous breakdown, psychotic break, drastic shift in consciousness, etc. This is also known as "The Dark Night of the Soul" (see St. John of the Cross, see below); many seekers who've passed through this point would encourage the dark night experience if they had only knew what it was.

According to Shinzen Young, "This phenomenon, within the Buddhist tradition, is sometimes referred to as 'falling into the Pit of the Void.' It entails an authentic and irreversible insight into Emptiness and No Self. What makes it problematic is that the person interprets it as a bad trip. Instead of being empowering and fulfilling, the way Buddhist literature claims it will be, it turns into the opposite. In a sense, it's Enlightenment's Evil Twin. This is serious but still manageable through intensive, perhaps daily, guidance under a competent and knowledgeable teacher. In some cases it takes months or even years to fully metabolize, but the results are almost always highly positive."

More from Shinzen Young explaining the dark night search at
http://shinzenyoung.blogspot.com

A great podcast (and transcript) describing the dark night you can search on:
http://www.buddhistgeeks.com

In most sects of Buddhism, it is not custom to teach the stages of development, as higher stages are a complete mystery to those in lower stages of development and the path is slightly different for everyone. Enlightenment can NOT be a goal, but a journey to. You can 'know' where you've come from and have an idea of where your destination ends (in enlightenment), but you must carve your path IN THE MOMENT while in/on the journey. The lessons become knowledge at self reflection and many moments of introspection (or meditation)--you can not learn from a past moment if consumed with ideals of the future.

If you align with Buddhist philosophy, a negative experience of DP could very well be an inability to cope with emptiness, non-duality, and no-self introduced at the beginning of the 3rd Nana. It could also be that you are lost and in the 'thicke' of the dark night at the end of the 4th Nana. The experience will only gets worse if not dealt with an air of knowing that: THIS, TOO, SHALL PASS!! It is much easier to navigate the dark night with a knowledgeable mentor, coach or friend.

With some relief and clarity on the other side of the AP Event and the dark night, the letting go of [email protected]#$% enables the 'Stream Winner'(one who surpasses these seemingly negative events) is now welcomed, or pulled into, the stream; entering into the natural and REAL 'flow' of life. This is "stream entry" at the 5th Nana and is considered in Buddhism to be the first (real) stage toward spiritual enlightenment and often mistaken for enlightenment in itself.

At this point, a Buddhist practitioner will cease to reincarnate into lower life forms (plants/animals) and will reincarnate only into human form, so the divine spirit may continue it's journey to Nirvana. From this point, a common experience is the recognition that 'self' and spirit are Divine and experiences of 'one-ness' with ALL things (even non-existence) is persistent. It is estimated that only a small percentage of the worlds population even get this far, let alone any farther (at least in this life-according to reincarnation).

From stages 3 to 5, DP/DR is a common state. Some pass through these stages in months and others it may take decades. What is important, is just to know that DP/DR is a 'state of being'. The sooner we let go of what was and stop being nostalgic for our 'conditional' past, the sooner we can embrace and even indulge in what IS.

Because polarity in constructs are deconstructed in later stages, those who claim any 'path' (Buddhism or any other developmental growth path) as evil or wrong is still, quite possibly, struggling with passing the 2nd or dealing with the 3rd Nana (this is where most people get stuck). In later stages, judgement and polarity become irrelevant in self dialogue.

If Buddhism is 'your thing', I can not stress this enough --- It is IMPORTANT to have a guide, prior path walker, teacher (master), who knows his/her stuff and can effectively communicate the 'path' to you and help you to positively (or non-judgmentally) interpret the meaning within your journey (this is where the Theory of Positive Integration by Kazimierz Dąbrowski was really helpful--see below). Don't dismiss anything all willy-nilly without asking the questions: who? what? when? where? why? and most importantly HOW--ie. How might this this path (course of action) affect me? How do these states/stages affect me/others? How do I get through the hard parts? How do I reach out when I need help?

If Buddhism doesn't work for you....fine...move on! Stop lingering on what doesn't work and get to finding something that does. 1) Find a path (developmental theory) that makes sense to you and act-as-if you KNOW where you are in its' stages. 2) Align yourself with that path and work it as long as it works for you. 3) Move forward on the path when the lesson/s have been revealed to you (when you KNOW something). 4) Find the connections that exist in ALL of it. 5) Stay on the path as long as it makes sense, otherwise...MOVE ON to another theory.

Other theoretical stages of growth to consider:

**St. John of the Cross
"Dark Night of the Soul" (Spanish: La noche oscura del alma) is the title of a poem written by 16th-century Spanish poet and Roman Catholic mystic Saint John of the Cross.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_night_of_the_soul

His poem narrates the journey of the soul from its bodily home to its union with God. The journey occurs during the night, which represents the hardships and difficulties the soul meets in detachment from the world and reaching the light of the union with the Creator. There are 
several steps in this night, which are related in successive stanzas. The main idea of the poem can be seen as the painful experience that people endure as they seek to grow in spiritual maturity and union with God. The poem is divided into two books that reflect the two phases of the dark night. The first is a purification of the senses. The second and more intense of the two stages is that of the purification of the spirit, which is the less common of the two. 'Dark Night of the Soul' also describes the ten steps on the ladder of mystical love, which was previously described by Saint Thomas Aquinas and also in part by Aristotle.

**Kazimierz Dąbrowski
Theory of Positive Disintegration (TPD) - Theoretical framework of personality development which views psychological tension and anxiety as necessary for growth. These "disintegrative" processes are therefore seen as "positive," whereas people who fail to go through positive disintegration may remain for their entire lives in a state of "primary integration." Advancing into disintegration and into the higher levels of development is predicated on having developmental potential, including overexcitabilities and above-average reactions to stimuli.
2.1 Level I: Primary Integration
2.2 Level II: Unilevel Disintegration
2.3 Level III: Spontaneous Multilevel Disintegration
2.4 Level IV: Directed Multilevel Disintegration
2.5 Level V: Secondary Integration

FOR MORE ON POSITIVE DISINTIGRATION find in Wikipedia.

**Wittenberg
identifies five metaphysic characteristics
1. A self image crisis, the person alternates between responding to superego demands (parental/authority) and adhering to one's ego- ideal.
2. Brief states of depersonalization, a person experiences a loss of identity. Accompanied by series of disembodiment, isolation and estrangement.
3. End of role playing. Reality sets in. Often accompanied by depression.
4. Awareness of time continuity. The sense of time passage become more acute. It includes developing the ability to allocate and utilize time in one's activities, plans or defenses.
5. Search for a partner. the young adult chooses a love object for 'permanent affiliation.'

**Erik Erikson 
Devoted his research to defining the eight stages of life. Young adulthood, according to this model, falls in the sixth stage, "intimacy vs. isolation." The developing person up until that time has been 
forming his identity. There is a lack of feeling of self- sameness over time, which is important for the sense of identity, is fractured at many points of development. The fragmentation of the sense of self is common during the acute stages like stage 6. This stage can only occur after the person has successfully completed the other 5 stages and often, chronology of age is not the most important consideration-maturity is.

**Robert White 
Is an important theorist who did extensive clinical research with young adults. He identifies five "growth trends" of young adult development: 
(1) stabilizing of ego identity or feeling confident within the newly found identity and not as apt to succumb to outside pressures
(2) freeing of personal relationships in terms of dealing with problems in the "present," they are thus able to become more sensitive to another person because they are less tied with their personal history
(3) deepening of interests and the enjoyment of life which shapes a person over time and is "tied to both competence and commitment
(4) humanizing of values distinguishing "between abstract morality of adolescence and the more functional morality of young adulthood" 
(5) expansion of caring the stage of the "growth trend" 
This theory is closely related to Erikson's idea of "generativity"

**Carl Jung
Recommends getting in touch with ones 'Anima/Animus' (alternate gender identity) as much as possible. Otherwise depersonalization, heightened anxiety, tension, and agitation can take over. If not dealt with correctly, the Shadow self will have difficulty in reconciling itself with the world. Introverted types are more adversely affected and would benefit most from psychotherapy, as they are more likely to repress than express.

Others developmental stages to look up:

Maslow's hierarchy of needs
Ken Wilber on development of self
Kohlberg's stages of moral development
Loevinger's stages of ego development
Piaget's theory of cognitive development
Neo-Piagetian theories of cognitive development
Psychosexual development
Model of Hierarchical Complexity
Sociocultural evolution (cultural development)
Fowler's stages of faith development
Stages of Team development
Spiral Dynamics social growth development
"Mystical Love" described by Saint Thomas Aquinas (also in part by Aristotle)
Freud - oral,anal, phallic - growth related to sexual instinct
More...More...More...Just look!!!

Sending explosive potential joy...

aquabella is on tw @lonidoddi

******Questions, comments and clarifications welcome*******

Peace and all that jazz...-

Aquabella


----------

