# Discussion re: Diagnosis, formerly Soulbro's "Brain Sca



## Guest (Sep 16, 2004)

Ok, i just got back from seeing my therapist, and i guess every once in a while him and about 10 other therapists or so get together and have meetings where they all present a case of one of their clients and give each other insight and advice and opinions etc.... Well at his last meeting he presented my case.

I guess the other therapists presented the idea of that i could have smoked PCP without knowing it and thats why im feeling like this, the whole seizure thing was brought up &they had another idea/suggestion which is that i should look into getting a brain scan done. I asked him what would be the purpose of that and he said that it would be just to make sure their is nothing physically wrong with my brain, such as a lack of blood flow, or clotting ( anxiety trigger!), unwanted pressure etc.... He called my psych and presented the idea but he hasn't gotten back to him and he suggested that when i go see him that i inquire about it as well. The thing is i had an EEG done already, and although it did show one abnormality its signifigance was unclear and from what ive been told doesn't seem like its anything serious. Does anyone here think its a good idea to get a brain scan done, even though ive already had an EEG done? I mean is there still a possibility that this ISN'T psychological.

I also mentioned to him that when i was 5, i hit my head on concrete & was knocked unconscious and that if he thinks that could be playing a role in all of this and he said yes. And i was like well why would it effect me now 13 & 14 years later? He said it could effect you because if any damage was done or anything was disturbed that during my teenage years the brain begins to expand and grow and that while doing that any problem it may have caused, i could be feeling now?

I feel like im back at the drawing board once again, after like 9 months of this shit, i still don't have any definite answers. Im just feeling anxious and depressed right now. I guess im gonna look into getting a brain scan done. The thing i can't understand about there being something physically wrong with me though, is that, if that was the case, like say i had a blood clot, after 9 months wouldn't i be like dead by now??? Actually its been longer than 9 months, Just 9 months of me knowing i have a problem, or if there was any other physical problem, wouldn't i be effected it by it alot more severly?????? I mean shit, i can bench press like 330 pounds and military press near 500, if i had a physical problem, wouldn't i be incapable of doing these things????

things are beginning not to make sense anymore, or maybe once again im over analyzing the situation.

ughh i dunno


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2004)

Ok, i just got back from seeing my therapist, and i guess every once in a while him and about 10 other therapists or so get together and have meetings where they all present a case of one of their clients and give each other insight and advice and opinions etc.... Well at his last meeting he presented my case.

I guess the other therapists presented the idea of that i could have smoked PCP without knowing it and thats why im feeling like this, the whole seizure thing was brought up &they had another idea/suggestion which is that i should look into getting a brain scan done. I asked him what would be the purpose of that and he said that it would be just to make sure their is nothing physically wrong with my brain, such as a lack of blood flow, or clotting ( anxiety trigger!), unwanted pressure etc.... He called my psych and presented the idea but he hasn't gotten back to him and he suggested that when i go see him that i inquire about it as well. The thing is i had an EEG done already, and although it did show one abnormality its signifigance was unclear and from what ive been told doesn't seem like its anything serious. Does anyone here think its a good idea to get a brain scan done, even though ive already had an EEG done? I mean is there still a possibility that this ISN'T psychological.

I also mentioned to him that when i was 5, i hit my head on concrete & was knocked unconscious and that if he thinks that could be playing a role in all of this and he said yes. And i was like well why would it effect me now 13 & 14 years later? He said it could effect you because if any damage was done or anything was disturbed that during my teenage years the brain begins to expand and grow and that while doing that any problem it may have caused, i could be feeling now?

I feel like im back at the drawing board once again, after like 9 months of this shit, i still don't have any definite answers. Im just feeling anxious and depressed right now. I guess im gonna look into getting a brain scan done. The thing i can't understand about there being something physically wrong with me though, is that, if that was the case, like say i had a blood clot, after 9 months wouldn't i be like dead by now??? Actually its been longer than 9 months, Just 9 months of me knowing i have a problem, or if there was any other physical problem, wouldn't i be effected it by it alot more severly?????? I mean shit, i can bench press like 330 pounds and military press near 500, if i had a physical problem, wouldn't i be incapable of doing these things????

things are beginning not to make sense anymore, or maybe once again im over analyzing the situation.

ughh i dunno


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2004)

Also, i really wish that i could find a perfect description of how i feel, so that i could show it to people and they would understand. Even to this day my dad still asks me to describe to him and i really have trouble doing this. The therapist asks me to and i try to give him my best description but its hard for me to describe. I really wish i could have an indepth percise description. But than again i don't even know exactly whats wrong?


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2004)

Also, i really wish that i could find a perfect description of how i feel, so that i could show it to people and they would understand. Even to this day my dad still asks me to describe to him and i really have trouble doing this. The therapist asks me to and i try to give him my best description but its hard for me to describe. I really wish i could have an indepth percise description. But than again i don't even know exactly whats wrong?


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## JasonFar (Aug 13, 2004)

You're just obsessing and the longer you obsess like that the longer you will have to be in this state. Your therapist, or your dad, knowing "how you feel" will solve absolutely nothing; them knowing you feel "like shit" opposed to "unreal and in an alien environment" doesn't make a bit of difference.

I think it's safe to say that whatever the Therapist says or doesn't say, your symptoms are all related to anxiety and depression. He's probably just going along with you with all these "could it be this, could it be that (hit my head when I was 5) because you want such definite answers and the bottom line here is there isn't any.

I think the best thing for you to do is not to get the brain scan, and/or worry about it. Concentrate on getting another job. With a job (crappy or not) and some school on your hands you won't have as much time to fill your head with crap and go in circles.


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## JasonFar (Aug 13, 2004)

You're just obsessing and the longer you obsess like that the longer you will have to be in this state. Your therapist, or your dad, knowing "how you feel" will solve absolutely nothing; them knowing you feel "like shit" opposed to "unreal and in an alien environment" doesn't make a bit of difference.

I think it's safe to say that whatever the Therapist says or doesn't say, your symptoms are all related to anxiety and depression. He's probably just going along with you with all these "could it be this, could it be that (hit my head when I was 5) because you want such definite answers and the bottom line here is there isn't any.

I think the best thing for you to do is not to get the brain scan, and/or worry about it. Concentrate on getting another job. With a job (crappy or not) and some school on your hands you won't have as much time to fill your head with crap and go in circles.


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## JasonFar (Aug 13, 2004)

By the way, I find the image of a bunch of T's around a table, looking at your case.... All dumbfounded one stares blankly in to space............................... PCP? The other T's all look at each other for a second, then are like, "OK, sure." "Yeah, that's a good guess."

Heheh. It's kinda bogus. You would think virtually everyone of them would just say "ANXIETY. SUBSTANCE ABUSE. LIFE TRANSITION."

................................PCP? "Sure, why not?"

:twisted: :lol:


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## JasonFar (Aug 13, 2004)

By the way, I find the image of a bunch of T's around a table, looking at your case.... All dumbfounded one stares blankly in to space............................... PCP? The other T's all look at each other for a second, then are like, "OK, sure." "Yeah, that's a good guess."

Heheh. It's kinda bogus. You would think virtually everyone of them would just say "ANXIETY. SUBSTANCE ABUSE. LIFE TRANSITION."

................................PCP? "Sure, why not?"

:twisted: :lol:


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2004)

^ i know what your saying Jason,but i think he suggested a brain scan to rule out any possibility of any actual physical problems that could be causing this within my brain. I dunno man im no doctor, im just going by what people are telling me and suggesting to me.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2004)

^ i know what your saying Jason,but i think he suggested a brain scan to rule out any possibility of any actual physical problems that could be causing this within my brain. I dunno man im no doctor, im just going by what people are telling me and suggesting to me.


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## JAG (Aug 31, 2004)

howdy sooooul bro

Dont worry about it. Just get the tests done. Put yourself in your doctor's shoes. A patient comes in with DP/DR symptoms. So you think to yourself he probably has chronic DP. However, you think, I better make sure that I rule out any physical problems.

Many years ago I went to a neurologist because I was getting migraines. The first thing he did was schedule me for a brain scan and EEG. It's common practice. The test itself is nothing to get worried about. It doesn't hurt or anything.


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## JAG (Aug 31, 2004)

howdy sooooul bro

Dont worry about it. Just get the tests done. Put yourself in your doctor's shoes. A patient comes in with DP/DR symptoms. So you think to yourself he probably has chronic DP. However, you think, I better make sure that I rule out any physical problems.

Many years ago I went to a neurologist because I was getting migraines. The first thing he did was schedule me for a brain scan and EEG. It's common practice. The test itself is nothing to get worried about. It doesn't hurt or anything.


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## peacedove (Aug 15, 2004)

I think it should be required that everyone who sees a psychiatrist get a brain scan, PET scan, EEG or whatever done to make sure what the problem is... before they put us all on crazy meds. Just my opinion, then maybe they could know what to give us right off the bat instead of using us as guinea pigs and draining our bank accounts while doing it... "ok so that's not workin for ya here try this one and come back next month and tell me about it...". But anyways, I think it wouldn't hurt to get the tests done. Maybe it'll even make you feel better? If you don't get them done you might spend your whole life wondering about it.


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## peacedove (Aug 15, 2004)

I think it should be required that everyone who sees a psychiatrist get a brain scan, PET scan, EEG or whatever done to make sure what the problem is... before they put us all on crazy meds. Just my opinion, then maybe they could know what to give us right off the bat instead of using us as guinea pigs and draining our bank accounts while doing it... "ok so that's not workin for ya here try this one and come back next month and tell me about it...". But anyways, I think it wouldn't hurt to get the tests done. Maybe it'll even make you feel better? If you don't get them done you might spend your whole life wondering about it.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

OIY! ACH!
Dear Soulbro,
I agree you are driving yourself crazy with obsessing, but I also feel you've got too many cooks in the kitchen.

I feel one should get a full workup with the best psychiatrist one can find. Get as many tests are as deemed necessary. But for example, a GOOD M.D. psychiatrist will be able to tell a psychiatric from a neurological disorder. There have been misdiagnoses where TLE for example was mistaken for a psychiatric disorder or vice versa, but all of this speculating will drive you nuts.

And yeah, it ticks me off that there is a round table discussion by a gang who've never SEEN you or SPOKEN with you. Yes, I understand someone seeking a "second opinion", but if the doctor, is this the psychologist, now I forgot, can't seem to pin something down...

OH THIS REALLY TICKS ME OFF.

I'm not mad at you bro, I'm angry with incompetence and ignorance about DP. If/when I get my act together, I want to speak to medical students, psychiatrists, psychologists (through NAMI work) about DP. I've been VERY lucky with doctors and diagnoses overall. But some of the stories here make me want to scream.

*If tests are recommended, yes go for it. If anything for peace of mind. And a proper diagnosis, which at this point... well I can't understand why no one understands DP. I'm still back at the psychologist who coined the new term "Derealment" for you. OH SHOOT US ALL!*

Best,
Crabby D :shock:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

OIY! ACH!
Dear Soulbro,
I agree you are driving yourself crazy with obsessing, but I also feel you've got too many cooks in the kitchen.

I feel one should get a full workup with the best psychiatrist one can find. Get as many tests are as deemed necessary. But for example, a GOOD M.D. psychiatrist will be able to tell a psychiatric from a neurological disorder. There have been misdiagnoses where TLE for example was mistaken for a psychiatric disorder or vice versa, but all of this speculating will drive you nuts.

And yeah, it ticks me off that there is a round table discussion by a gang who've never SEEN you or SPOKEN with you. Yes, I understand someone seeking a "second opinion", but if the doctor, is this the psychologist, now I forgot, can't seem to pin something down...

OH THIS REALLY TICKS ME OFF.

I'm not mad at you bro, I'm angry with incompetence and ignorance about DP. If/when I get my act together, I want to speak to medical students, psychiatrists, psychologists (through NAMI work) about DP. I've been VERY lucky with doctors and diagnoses overall. But some of the stories here make me want to scream.

*If tests are recommended, yes go for it. If anything for peace of mind. And a proper diagnosis, which at this point... well I can't understand why no one understands DP. I'm still back at the psychologist who coined the new term "Derealment" for you. OH SHOOT US ALL!*

Best,
Crabby D :shock:


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2004)

The following is a list of articles (all Psychoanalytic, and I realize not something that will appeal to most folks, I am NOT pushing the psychoanalytic view of DP). My point is this:

Every one of these articles were written between 1937 and 1977. No PCP around then, my dears. And they weren't writing about any brain damage.

DP is very well known within psychoanalytic theories. It is NOT rare. It is NOT new. It is NOT something that is connected to brain damage from drug use.

I only post this to make the point that no matter what ANY idiot doctor tells ANY of you, dp is not "unknown."

Peace,
Janine

Berman, L. (1948). Depersonalization - body ego - genital representation.., Psychoanal. Q., 17:433-452.

Blank, H.R. (1954). Depression, hypomania, and depersonalization., Psychoanal. Q., 23:20-37.

Bonime, W. (1973). Depersonalization as a manifestation of evolving health, J. Amer. Acad. Psychoanal., 1:109-124

Bradlow, P.A. (1973). Depersonalization, ego splitting, non-human fantasy and shame., Int. J. Psychoanal., 54:487-492.

Fast, I., Chethik, M. (1976). Aspects of depersonalization-derealization: child experience.., Int. Rev. Psychoanal., 3:483-490.

Feigenbaum, D. (1937). Depersonalization as a defense mechanism., Psychoanal. Q., 6:4-11.

Frances, A., et al. (1977). Depersonalization: a self-relations perspective., Int. J. Psychoanal., 58:325-332.

Grinberg, L. (1966). Obsessive mechanisms and self-disturbance: depersonalization.., Int. J. Psychoanal., 47:177-183.

Hamilton, J.W. (1975). Depersonalization in the life and writings of Joseph Conrad.., Psychoanal. Q., 44:612-630.

Hunter, R.C.A. (1966). Analysis of episodes of depersonalization in borderline patient.., Int. J. Psychoanal., 47:32-42.

Jacobson, E. (1959). Depersonalization., J. Amer. Psychoanal. Assn., 7:581-610.

Levitan, H.L. (1967). Depersonalization and the dream., Psychoanal. Q., 36:157-171.

Levitan, H.L. (1970). The depersonalization process: sense of reality and unreality.., Psychoanal. Q., 39:449-470.

Lower, R.B. (1971). Depersonalization and the masochistic wish., Psychoanal. Q., 40:584-602.

Lower, R.B. (1972). Affect changes in depersonalization, Psychoanal. Rev., 59:565-577.

Miller, F., Bashkin, E.A. (1974). Depersonalization and self-mutilation., Psychoanal. Q., 43:638-649.

Myers, W.A. (1976). Imaginary companion,fantasy twin,mirror dream;depersonalization.., Psychoanal. Q., 45:503-524.

Oberndorf, C.P. (1934). Depersonalization in relation to erotization of thought., Int. J. Psychoanal., 15:271-295.

Oberndorf, C.P. (1939). On retaining the sense of reality in states of depersonalization., Int. J. Psychoanal., 20:137-147.

Oberndorf, C.P. (1950). The role of anxiety in depersonalization., Int. J. Psychoanal., 31:1-5.

Peto, A. (1955). On so-called 'depersonalization.', Int. J. Psychoanal., 36:379-386.

Renik, O. (1978). The role of attention in depersonalization., Psychoanal. Q., 47:588-605.

Rosenfeld, H. (1947). Analysis of a schizophrenic state with depersonalization., Int. J. Psychoanal., 28:130-139.

Roshco, M. (1967). Perception, denial and depersonalization., J. Amer. Psychoanal. Assn., 15:243-260.

Sarlin, C.N. (1962). Depersonalization and derealization., J. Amer. Psychoanal. Assn., 10:784-804.

Searl, M.N. (1932). A note on depersonalization., Int. J. Psychoanal., 13:329-347.

Shapiro, S.H. (1978). Depersonalization, daydreaming: disturbance sense of reality, Bull. Menninger Clin., 42:307-320.

Stamm, J.L. (1962). Altered ego states allied to depersonalization., J. Amer. Psychoanal. Assn., 10:762-783.

Stewart, W.A., rep. (1964). Panel: Depersonalization., J. Amer. Psychoanal. Assn., 12:171-186.

Stolorow, R.D. (1979). Death anxiety, hypochondriasis, depersonalization: development.., Int. J. Psychoanal., 60:201-214.

Watterson, D.J. (1956). Chlorpromazine, depersonalization, and visual hallucinosis., Bull. Menninger Clin., 20:20-24.

Wittels, F. (1940). Psychology and treatment of depersonalization, Psychoanal. Rev., 27: 57-64.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2004)

The following is a list of articles (all Psychoanalytic, and I realize not something that will appeal to most folks, I am NOT pushing the psychoanalytic view of DP). My point is this:

Every one of these articles were written between 1937 and 1977. No PCP around then, my dears. And they weren't writing about any brain damage.

DP is very well known within psychoanalytic theories. It is NOT rare. It is NOT new. It is NOT something that is connected to brain damage from drug use.

I only post this to make the point that no matter what ANY idiot doctor tells ANY of you, dp is not "unknown."

Peace,
Janine

Berman, L. (1948). Depersonalization - body ego - genital representation.., Psychoanal. Q., 17:433-452.

Blank, H.R. (1954). Depression, hypomania, and depersonalization., Psychoanal. Q., 23:20-37.

Bonime, W. (1973). Depersonalization as a manifestation of evolving health, J. Amer. Acad. Psychoanal., 1:109-124

Bradlow, P.A. (1973). Depersonalization, ego splitting, non-human fantasy and shame., Int. J. Psychoanal., 54:487-492.

Fast, I., Chethik, M. (1976). Aspects of depersonalization-derealization: child experience.., Int. Rev. Psychoanal., 3:483-490.

Feigenbaum, D. (1937). Depersonalization as a defense mechanism., Psychoanal. Q., 6:4-11.

Frances, A., et al. (1977). Depersonalization: a self-relations perspective., Int. J. Psychoanal., 58:325-332.

Grinberg, L. (1966). Obsessive mechanisms and self-disturbance: depersonalization.., Int. J. Psychoanal., 47:177-183.

Hamilton, J.W. (1975). Depersonalization in the life and writings of Joseph Conrad.., Psychoanal. Q., 44:612-630.

Hunter, R.C.A. (1966). Analysis of episodes of depersonalization in borderline patient.., Int. J. Psychoanal., 47:32-42.

Jacobson, E. (1959). Depersonalization., J. Amer. Psychoanal. Assn., 7:581-610.

Levitan, H.L. (1967). Depersonalization and the dream., Psychoanal. Q., 36:157-171.

Levitan, H.L. (1970). The depersonalization process: sense of reality and unreality.., Psychoanal. Q., 39:449-470.

Lower, R.B. (1971). Depersonalization and the masochistic wish., Psychoanal. Q., 40:584-602.

Lower, R.B. (1972). Affect changes in depersonalization, Psychoanal. Rev., 59:565-577.

Miller, F., Bashkin, E.A. (1974). Depersonalization and self-mutilation., Psychoanal. Q., 43:638-649.

Myers, W.A. (1976). Imaginary companion,fantasy twin,mirror dream;depersonalization.., Psychoanal. Q., 45:503-524.

Oberndorf, C.P. (1934). Depersonalization in relation to erotization of thought., Int. J. Psychoanal., 15:271-295.

Oberndorf, C.P. (1939). On retaining the sense of reality in states of depersonalization., Int. J. Psychoanal., 20:137-147.

Oberndorf, C.P. (1950). The role of anxiety in depersonalization., Int. J. Psychoanal., 31:1-5.

Peto, A. (1955). On so-called 'depersonalization.', Int. J. Psychoanal., 36:379-386.

Renik, O. (1978). The role of attention in depersonalization., Psychoanal. Q., 47:588-605.

Rosenfeld, H. (1947). Analysis of a schizophrenic state with depersonalization., Int. J. Psychoanal., 28:130-139.

Roshco, M. (1967). Perception, denial and depersonalization., J. Amer. Psychoanal. Assn., 15:243-260.

Sarlin, C.N. (1962). Depersonalization and derealization., J. Amer. Psychoanal. Assn., 10:784-804.

Searl, M.N. (1932). A note on depersonalization., Int. J. Psychoanal., 13:329-347.

Shapiro, S.H. (1978). Depersonalization, daydreaming: disturbance sense of reality, Bull. Menninger Clin., 42:307-320.

Stamm, J.L. (1962). Altered ego states allied to depersonalization., J. Amer. Psychoanal. Assn., 10:762-783.

Stewart, W.A., rep. (1964). Panel: Depersonalization., J. Amer. Psychoanal. Assn., 12:171-186.

Stolorow, R.D. (1979). Death anxiety, hypochondriasis, depersonalization: development.., Int. J. Psychoanal., 60:201-214.

Watterson, D.J. (1956). Chlorpromazine, depersonalization, and visual hallucinosis., Bull. Menninger Clin., 20:20-24.

Wittels, F. (1940). Psychology and treatment of depersonalization, Psychoanal. Rev., 27: 57-64.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2004)

Ironically enough i JUST hit my head while i was at the gym & of course im worrying/obsessing over it right now as i type this.

I was doing this shoulder exercise on this machine, where you bring the bar down past & behind your head to your shoulders. Well right when i was about to start my second set, i brought the bar down and the fuckin thing snapped i feel back and the bar hit me in the back of my head.

Luckily i wasn't knocked out or anything like that. But i was knocked on my ass & stunned. Now i have a little bump on the back of my head, which i did put frozen blueberries in a ziploc bag ( courtesy of my moms suggestion) but that spot on my head still hurts and of course im worrying about all the horrible things that can happen or could have happened and i just feel very weird.

I just find that very ironic, that earlier today people are telling me to get a brain scan and later on in the same day i actually hit my head.

ughh i can't win

Everytime i get a weird sensation im gonna wonder if its the result of getting hit in the head or just anxiety & obsessiveness.

btw, Dreamer, my therapist is NOT my psychiatrist. They are two seperate people.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2004)

Ironically enough i JUST hit my head while i was at the gym & of course im worrying/obsessing over it right now as i type this.

I was doing this shoulder exercise on this machine, where you bring the bar down past & behind your head to your shoulders. Well right when i was about to start my second set, i brought the bar down and the fuckin thing snapped i feel back and the bar hit me in the back of my head.

Luckily i wasn't knocked out or anything like that. But i was knocked on my ass & stunned. Now i have a little bump on the back of my head, which i did put frozen blueberries in a ziploc bag ( courtesy of my moms suggestion) but that spot on my head still hurts and of course im worrying about all the horrible things that can happen or could have happened and i just feel very weird.

I just find that very ironic, that earlier today people are telling me to get a brain scan and later on in the same day i actually hit my head.

ughh i can't win

Everytime i get a weird sensation im gonna wonder if its the result of getting hit in the head or just anxiety & obsessiveness.

btw, Dreamer, my therapist is NOT my psychiatrist. They are two seperate people.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

Janine, where can I find those articles?
I am very interested to read them.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

Janine, where can I find those articles?
I am very interested to read them.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

> btw, Dreamer, my therapist is NOT my psychiatrist. They are two seperate people.


Dear Bro,

I understand that. The thing is the therapist and the psychiatrist should be on the same page. My psychiatrist (back in Los Angeles -- you need a big city I guess) who evaluated, tested, diagnosed me and prescribed my meds had an ongoing communication with my therapist.

This was how he set up treatment. He was in charge of meds recommendations and the therapist in charge of talk therapy and CBT. They discussed my case on and off. Saw the shrink once a month, the therapist once a week, and I think they spoke once a month or as they felt necessary. It was an excellent combination. And I signed a paper that they could talk with each other.

I'm refering to this group -- I'm gathering they're psychologists -- babbling on about what your diagnosis is ... I just find it inconceivable that there is no consensus. And/or that the psychiatrist and therapist don't have an agreed upon diagnosis for you.

As Janine noted above there is a ton of information about depersonalization in the psychoanalytic community. My psychiatrist in 1975 diagnosed me immediately. I described my symptoms of what I for years had been called "feeling weird" and he said DP. My mother, the vicious psychiatrist had KNOWN about DP herself. I had been describing it for years. I was a humiliation to her and she wanted me to keep quiet about "feeling weird", though she KNEW I had DP/DR. She was trained in psychiatry in the early 1960s. (She was originally an M.D. in internal medicine and went back to study psychiatry.)

The term DP ... and I always forget this, it's on Cavan's UNREAL site I think, was coined in the 1700s, and there is a huge bibliography on the subject -- and yes, interestingly in psychoanalytic literature, trauma related literature. *Wendy, you may want to contact the ISSD, in the links section. They have an extensive bibliography on all dissociative disorders, and they come from a trauma based theory in their practice. Also, to to PubMed and there is a huge collection of articles. Ah, and the IoP/King's College, London website! That's a great place. In the links section.*

But more astonishing is that the Merck Manual of Medical Disorders describes it as the *THIRD* most common psychiatric symptom. It can potentially accompany all of the mental illnesses (but doesn't have to).

I'm really having a difficult time understanding the confusion re: all of this. I'm angry at the medical community and the mental health community as a whole. I just don't understand this.

Take Care,
D :shock:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

> btw, Dreamer, my therapist is NOT my psychiatrist. They are two seperate people.


Dear Bro,

I understand that. The thing is the therapist and the psychiatrist should be on the same page. My psychiatrist (back in Los Angeles -- you need a big city I guess) who evaluated, tested, diagnosed me and prescribed my meds had an ongoing communication with my therapist.

This was how he set up treatment. He was in charge of meds recommendations and the therapist in charge of talk therapy and CBT. They discussed my case on and off. Saw the shrink once a month, the therapist once a week, and I think they spoke once a month or as they felt necessary. It was an excellent combination. And I signed a paper that they could talk with each other.

I'm refering to this group -- I'm gathering they're psychologists -- babbling on about what your diagnosis is ... I just find it inconceivable that there is no consensus. And/or that the psychiatrist and therapist don't have an agreed upon diagnosis for you.

As Janine noted above there is a ton of information about depersonalization in the psychoanalytic community. My psychiatrist in 1975 diagnosed me immediately. I described my symptoms of what I for years had been called "feeling weird" and he said DP. My mother, the vicious psychiatrist had KNOWN about DP herself. I had been describing it for years. I was a humiliation to her and she wanted me to keep quiet about "feeling weird", though she KNEW I had DP/DR. She was trained in psychiatry in the early 1960s. (She was originally an M.D. in internal medicine and went back to study psychiatry.)

The term DP ... and I always forget this, it's on Cavan's UNREAL site I think, was coined in the 1700s, and there is a huge bibliography on the subject -- and yes, interestingly in psychoanalytic literature, trauma related literature. *Wendy, you may want to contact the ISSD, in the links section. They have an extensive bibliography on all dissociative disorders, and they come from a trauma based theory in their practice. Also, to to PubMed and there is a huge collection of articles. Ah, and the IoP/King's College, London website! That's a great place. In the links section.*

But more astonishing is that the Merck Manual of Medical Disorders describes it as the *THIRD* most common psychiatric symptom. It can potentially accompany all of the mental illnesses (but doesn't have to).

I'm really having a difficult time understanding the confusion re: all of this. I'm angry at the medical community and the mental health community as a whole. I just don't understand this.

Take Care,
D :shock:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Excellent list of DP articles from the IoP, Kings College, London site.

http://web1.iop.kcl.ac.uk/IoP/Departments/PsychMed/CNeuPsy/DPU/articles.shtml

Also, I can never remember this, I say the 1700s, it's the 1800s ....

Pre - 1900

*Dugas, Ludovic (1898) 
Un cas de depersonalization. 
Revue Philosophique 45:500-506.*

This guy saw DP over a century ago, and I believe it was Dugas who coined the term. Why can't I remember this? Yes, he did, it's on Andy's original website, and the articles gathered for the IoP were researched in great part by the original members of that site... Andy, Cavan, Alex, Ramon ... good folks. Have left some out undoubtedly.

Janine has quite a collection of articles. And PubMed is

http://www.pubmed.com

Simply search for depersonalization and you'll find a ton of articles.

Best,
D :shock:
Edited: 12:01 a.m.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Excellent list of DP articles from the IoP, Kings College, London site.

http://web1.iop.kcl.ac.uk/IoP/Departments/PsychMed/CNeuPsy/DPU/articles.shtml

Also, I can never remember this, I say the 1700s, it's the 1800s ....

Pre - 1900

*Dugas, Ludovic (1898) 
Un cas de depersonalization. 
Revue Philosophique 45:500-506.*

This guy saw DP over a century ago, and I believe it was Dugas who coined the term. Why can't I remember this? Yes, he did, it's on Andy's original website, and the articles gathered for the IoP were researched in great part by the original members of that site... Andy, Cavan, Alex, Ramon ... good folks. Have left some out undoubtedly.

Janine has quite a collection of articles. And PubMed is

http://www.pubmed.com

Simply search for depersonalization and you'll find a ton of articles.

Best,
D :shock:
Edited: 12:01 a.m.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

Dreamer thats understandable

Actually im from a big city, well pretty big anyways

And my therapist knows my psychiatrist & he told me today that he called him and left him a message. The thing with my psych is that he is VERY hard to get into contact with. When you call you usually get his voicemail or an answering service. I take it hes a busy guy because he's also a professor at a very well reguarded ivy league school here. But again, noone, not one DOCTOR, has said to me " yes you have DEPERSONALIZATION OR DEREALIZATION" which is WHY i always question whether or not i really have it. Matter of fact my dad even faxed info over to my psych about DP/DR & some info he got from Daphene Simean.

I feel like im running in circles here


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

Dreamer thats understandable

Actually im from a big city, well pretty big anyways

And my therapist knows my psychiatrist & he told me today that he called him and left him a message. The thing with my psych is that he is VERY hard to get into contact with. When you call you usually get his voicemail or an answering service. I take it hes a busy guy because he's also a professor at a very well reguarded ivy league school here. But again, noone, not one DOCTOR, has said to me " yes you have DEPERSONALIZATION OR DEREALIZATION" which is WHY i always question whether or not i really have it. Matter of fact my dad even faxed info over to my psych about DP/DR & some info he got from Daphene Simean.

I feel like im running in circles here


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Bro,
What university? My best psychiatrists were associated w/excellent Universities w/excellent Medical Schools.

And the shrink in 1975 had trained in Detroit, my hometown, and studied at Wayne State U. School of Medicine. I just don't get it.

University of Michigan
U.C.L.A.

Best,
D :shock:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Bro,
What university? My best psychiatrists were associated w/excellent Universities w/excellent Medical Schools.

And the shrink in 1975 had trained in Detroit, my hometown, and studied at Wayne State U. School of Medicine. I just don't get it.

University of Michigan
U.C.L.A.

Best,
D :shock:


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

Wendy, actually those are OLD articles, so I suspect the only way to get them is the library. The journals are Psychoanalytic Quarterly, the Americal Journal of Psychoanalysis, International Journal of Psychoanalysis, etc. (the titles are abbreviated, but that should be enough to get you started). I don't have them online, or in any computer form. But Dreamer's suggestions are excellent. The info is out there for anyone interested in analytic sources/theories.

Soul Bro and his "derealment" team, grin. See, as much as I agree with Dreamer that we should all be mortified at how this is being handled for poor SoulB, we also need to remember that therapists/psychiatrists are primarily people.

As such, they are NOT the caretakers we wish they were. The team of 10 of them having meetings is not about how to solve the world's mental problems. They're networking. They're trying to impress each other and form bonds that can help them in their careers. One of them is probably studying (or has grant money for) PCP induced symptoms, so he/she suggests that possibility for this "case" - your therapist, eager to keep this colleague on his team, agrees to pursue that avenue.

NOwhere in any of that does it actually mean that ANY of them think this is what is happening with you. They are exploring possible links for their own reasons, and if they help someone in the process, great. But they are usually looking at the larger picture - the FIELD itself - before they look at a particular patient.

The therapist who mentioned PCP might also be looking for as much data on brain scans and dissociation as he can find. So your therapist might be helping this fellow out by asking you to volunteer for brain scanning - they can use your data in connection with other similar cases, etc...

Do not assume "oh, this is what all those guys think I have"

Nope.

You presented some anxiety/obsesssive and dissociative symptoms and they had a meeting and talked about drug use, youth today, possible brain injury linking to early head trauma, the connection between PCP/trauma inducing rec drugs and dissociation, and the comparison amongst different patients's brain scan results. THAT was the conversation...not a conversation about SoulBrother.

Make sense?
I know it sounds cold, but it's reality.

Peace,
Janine


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

Wendy, actually those are OLD articles, so I suspect the only way to get them is the library. The journals are Psychoanalytic Quarterly, the Americal Journal of Psychoanalysis, International Journal of Psychoanalysis, etc. (the titles are abbreviated, but that should be enough to get you started). I don't have them online, or in any computer form. But Dreamer's suggestions are excellent. The info is out there for anyone interested in analytic sources/theories.

Soul Bro and his "derealment" team, grin. See, as much as I agree with Dreamer that we should all be mortified at how this is being handled for poor SoulB, we also need to remember that therapists/psychiatrists are primarily people.

As such, they are NOT the caretakers we wish they were. The team of 10 of them having meetings is not about how to solve the world's mental problems. They're networking. They're trying to impress each other and form bonds that can help them in their careers. One of them is probably studying (or has grant money for) PCP induced symptoms, so he/she suggests that possibility for this "case" - your therapist, eager to keep this colleague on his team, agrees to pursue that avenue.

NOwhere in any of that does it actually mean that ANY of them think this is what is happening with you. They are exploring possible links for their own reasons, and if they help someone in the process, great. But they are usually looking at the larger picture - the FIELD itself - before they look at a particular patient.

The therapist who mentioned PCP might also be looking for as much data on brain scans and dissociation as he can find. So your therapist might be helping this fellow out by asking you to volunteer for brain scanning - they can use your data in connection with other similar cases, etc...

Do not assume "oh, this is what all those guys think I have"

Nope.

You presented some anxiety/obsesssive and dissociative symptoms and they had a meeting and talked about drug use, youth today, possible brain injury linking to early head trauma, the connection between PCP/trauma inducing rec drugs and dissociation, and the comparison amongst different patients's brain scan results. THAT was the conversation...not a conversation about SoulBrother.

Make sense?
I know it sounds cold, but it's reality.

Peace,
Janine


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## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

I had an MRI brain scan done, and everything came out fine. I don't think DP, especially for people with drug induced DP is psychological. It's psychiatric. A lot of DP/DR is psychological but much of that happens after the psychiatric, chemical imbalances set in. The DPers who are more of existentialists may be entirely psychological but what do I know.

Brain scans really only find neurological problems like seizures, migraines, alzheimer's, etc. An MRI will basically show that everything is anatomically correct with your brain, that blood flow is normal, and there's no sort of brain damage/trauma. Chances are they won't find anything. Go ahead and do it to rule out possiblities, if you can afford it.

What meds are you on, BTW, Soul? No offense, but you spend a lot of time on this board.


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## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

I had an MRI brain scan done, and everything came out fine. I don't think DP, especially for people with drug induced DP is psychological. It's psychiatric. A lot of DP/DR is psychological but much of that happens after the psychiatric, chemical imbalances set in. The DPers who are more of existentialists may be entirely psychological but what do I know.

Brain scans really only find neurological problems like seizures, migraines, alzheimer's, etc. An MRI will basically show that everything is anatomically correct with your brain, that blood flow is normal, and there's no sort of brain damage/trauma. Chances are they won't find anything. Go ahead and do it to rule out possiblities, if you can afford it.

What meds are you on, BTW, Soul? No offense, but you spend a lot of time on this board.


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## JasonFar (Aug 13, 2004)

See, here's the thing.

Go read SoulBrotha's story in the stories section. It doesn't take any sort of genius to see the cause/effect there, the fact that he had a huge substance abuse and personality problems, the warning signs, the crescendoing effect that ultimately was the "breakdown". That SoulBrotha got (and is) as sick as he is is no mystery folks; he COULD have hit his head when he was 5, SURE... BUT, it just doesn't seem relevant, because there was never (and isn't going to be) a magical, one day awakening moment that he gets out of his anxiety/DP/etc. He was an addict, pure and simple. I was too. People go their whole lives in Alcoholics (and various other) Anonymous programs to cope with their addiction and underlying emotional issues. It would be absurd and fantastical to think that those several years of abuse to himself and the consequential changes to his Life could be something physical... It's possible, but just leave that out of the picture, replace SoulBrotha with "Anonymous patient A", and anyone would tell you there are deep psychological issues that will take much work to get at.

Do you go against the docs advice and NOT get a brainscan? I dunno. All I'm saying is that while it's good to rule out certain things, your case is too indictive of heavy psychological reasons, and you're probably just wasting money. I am 99.9% sure nothing will pop up on the brain scan that will lead to anything conclusive (or productive, for that matter). You're just obsessing.

Again, my advice stands, get a job if you can. I know it can be tough, though I recall your last job one of your friends hooked you up? Maybe you can do that again. I was in those shoes once, looking for various reasons all over, and the time would have been much better off spent (even miserably) doing something semi-productive, or at least mind-consuming, with my time.


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## JasonFar (Aug 13, 2004)

See, here's the thing.

Go read SoulBrotha's story in the stories section. It doesn't take any sort of genius to see the cause/effect there, the fact that he had a huge substance abuse and personality problems, the warning signs, the crescendoing effect that ultimately was the "breakdown". That SoulBrotha got (and is) as sick as he is is no mystery folks; he COULD have hit his head when he was 5, SURE... BUT, it just doesn't seem relevant, because there was never (and isn't going to be) a magical, one day awakening moment that he gets out of his anxiety/DP/etc. He was an addict, pure and simple. I was too. People go their whole lives in Alcoholics (and various other) Anonymous programs to cope with their addiction and underlying emotional issues. It would be absurd and fantastical to think that those several years of abuse to himself and the consequential changes to his Life could be something physical... It's possible, but just leave that out of the picture, replace SoulBrotha with "Anonymous patient A", and anyone would tell you there are deep psychological issues that will take much work to get at.

Do you go against the docs advice and NOT get a brainscan? I dunno. All I'm saying is that while it's good to rule out certain things, your case is too indictive of heavy psychological reasons, and you're probably just wasting money. I am 99.9% sure nothing will pop up on the brain scan that will lead to anything conclusive (or productive, for that matter). You're just obsessing.

Again, my advice stands, get a job if you can. I know it can be tough, though I recall your last job one of your friends hooked you up? Maybe you can do that again. I was in those shoes once, looking for various reasons all over, and the time would have been much better off spent (even miserably) doing something semi-productive, or at least mind-consuming, with my time.


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## JasonFar (Aug 13, 2004)

Also, Janine, Dreamer,

Don't you find it a little striking that they can't just (alone or as a group) say what I've been saying; for crying out loud, you could just draw out a map with crayons of the last two years of SB's Life (yellow for the magical highs and black for the utter darkness that followed), and it would be "near" impossible to go off anything but "psychological/personality disorders/neurotic tendencies" and all that fancy stuff. Maybe SoulBrotha hasn't explained to his Therapist thoroughly enough, but I'd imagine the guy has a decent enough idea by now...

The only thing I can think of is they are SO perplexed by SB's symptoms that they figure it goes beyond the mere rational reasonings behind his illnesses. But DP is symptomatic of anxiety, depression, and dissociation. These are professionals here... they must know of these symptoms. They're basic textbook. So why are they making him chase his tail? Even if he's doing it without their help, stepping in with some smackdown -- "you're symptoms are merely the result of blah blah blah" -- would be more honest, truthful, and BENEFICIAL than sending him to get more freaking tests done.


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## JasonFar (Aug 13, 2004)

Also, Janine, Dreamer,

Don't you find it a little striking that they can't just (alone or as a group) say what I've been saying; for crying out loud, you could just draw out a map with crayons of the last two years of SB's Life (yellow for the magical highs and black for the utter darkness that followed), and it would be "near" impossible to go off anything but "psychological/personality disorders/neurotic tendencies" and all that fancy stuff. Maybe SoulBrotha hasn't explained to his Therapist thoroughly enough, but I'd imagine the guy has a decent enough idea by now...

The only thing I can think of is they are SO perplexed by SB's symptoms that they figure it goes beyond the mere rational reasonings behind his illnesses. But DP is symptomatic of anxiety, depression, and dissociation. These are professionals here... they must know of these symptoms. They're basic textbook. So why are they making him chase his tail? Even if he's doing it without their help, stepping in with some smackdown -- "you're symptoms are merely the result of blah blah blah" -- would be more honest, truthful, and BENEFICIAL than sending him to get more freaking tests done.


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

I can't believe that being the third most common psychiatric symptom, we know so little. Or rather, the professionals know so little. I read on a research site that the latest research showed that it fitted more into the neuroses section alongside anxiety and depression, rather than in with the dissociative disorders. I think this was because the sample of people used had it as a symptom of anxiety/disorder rather than direct result of trauma. I really cant remember where i read it, it was very interesting as it was about Primary dp/dp as a disorder/dp as a symtpom etc. It must be a difficult one to classify.

I guess at the end of the day, we put our faith in doctors but they are only human. I admit, I go to the dotor expecting to be given a cure, but they can only do that, if you can tell them, to a certain extent, what is wrong with you. That is, without information from us, they won't know where to start. Which is why dp must be so difficult for them to diagnose. I've read billions of different symptoms on this site, all within dp, nobody able to describe it exactly how it feels, so it must be very difficult to pinpoint the how and why of it all.


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

I can't believe that being the third most common psychiatric symptom, we know so little. Or rather, the professionals know so little. I read on a research site that the latest research showed that it fitted more into the neuroses section alongside anxiety and depression, rather than in with the dissociative disorders. I think this was because the sample of people used had it as a symptom of anxiety/disorder rather than direct result of trauma. I really cant remember where i read it, it was very interesting as it was about Primary dp/dp as a disorder/dp as a symtpom etc. It must be a difficult one to classify.

I guess at the end of the day, we put our faith in doctors but they are only human. I admit, I go to the dotor expecting to be given a cure, but they can only do that, if you can tell them, to a certain extent, what is wrong with you. That is, without information from us, they won't know where to start. Which is why dp must be so difficult for them to diagnose. I've read billions of different symptoms on this site, all within dp, nobody able to describe it exactly how it feels, so it must be very difficult to pinpoint the how and why of it all.


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## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

That third most common psychiatric symptom is a bunch of crap. Sure, everyone you ask will probably say they have felt an 'out of body' experience, be it through drugs, waking up in the middle night as if in a dream, or whatever. It's like asking a person if they have ever had a nervous tick, jerk, or spasm. Everybody has. Does that mean they have a nervous system problem. No. Why worry about it? When they have a seizure you know something is terribly wrong. When you first experience 'real' DP, you know something is wrong. It isn't something that last two or three seconds and you just laugh it off. Something is wrong, and you fear it.

The actual number of people with DP disorder, who experience DR as well, who have completely screwed up sensory perception, 2D vision, and the 'brain fog' that keeps you from remembering your name, is very small. Otherwise, there would be a lot more research on it.


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## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

That third most common psychiatric symptom is a bunch of crap. Sure, everyone you ask will probably say they have felt an 'out of body' experience, be it through drugs, waking up in the middle night as if in a dream, or whatever. It's like asking a person if they have ever had a nervous tick, jerk, or spasm. Everybody has. Does that mean they have a nervous system problem. No. Why worry about it? When they have a seizure you know something is terribly wrong. When you first experience 'real' DP, you know something is wrong. It isn't something that last two or three seconds and you just laugh it off. Something is wrong, and you fear it.

The actual number of people with DP disorder, who experience DR as well, who have completely screwed up sensory perception, 2D vision, and the 'brain fog' that keeps you from remembering your name, is very small. Otherwise, there would be a lot more research on it.


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

I agree that the number of people with symptoms as severe as you describe is probably small. However, i would hazard a guess at the number of people that display some if not all of the symptoms, is much greater than that of those with a well-defined, researched illness such as schizophrenia. It is possible to hide dp, unless severe, so many people probably go untreated, don't go to the doctors out of fear, coupled with the fact they can't describe it and most doctors don't know that much about it, I reckon there must be so many people who have dp to some degree and not know. Infact I was just looking on Amazon at a book called 'Stranger in the Mirror - Dissociation -The Hidden Epidemic'. It sounded interesting, and implies that many people experience it than we estimate. Awareness makes people step forward. 
I agree that because the number of seriously affected individuals is small, the pressure isn't on to find a cure. Especially as those less affected can appear to carry on life unhindered.


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

I agree that the number of people with symptoms as severe as you describe is probably small. However, i would hazard a guess at the number of people that display some if not all of the symptoms, is much greater than that of those with a well-defined, researched illness such as schizophrenia. It is possible to hide dp, unless severe, so many people probably go untreated, don't go to the doctors out of fear, coupled with the fact they can't describe it and most doctors don't know that much about it, I reckon there must be so many people who have dp to some degree and not know. Infact I was just looking on Amazon at a book called 'Stranger in the Mirror - Dissociation -The Hidden Epidemic'. It sounded interesting, and implies that many people experience it than we estimate. Awareness makes people step forward. 
I agree that because the number of seriously affected individuals is small, the pressure isn't on to find a cure. Especially as those less affected can appear to carry on life unhindered.


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## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

I don't think you can really have DP and not know something's wrong. I know tons of people who are naturally 'out of touch with reality.' Not for a second would I say the have DP. They are just naturally aloof. It's the way their brain works.

I guess every time anybody loses focus and concentrate, they have ADD. Gimme a f'n break. I'm not trying to be abrasive here, but DP is a term that can be thrown around too loosely.


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## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

I don't think you can really have DP and not know something's wrong. I know tons of people who are naturally 'out of touch with reality.' Not for a second would I say the have DP. They are just naturally aloof. It's the way their brain works.

I guess every time anybody loses focus and concentrate, they have ADD. Gimme a f'n break. I'm not trying to be abrasive here, but DP is a term that can be thrown around too loosely.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

JasonFar said:


> Also, Janine, Dreamer,
> 
> Don't you find it a little striking that they can't just (alone or as a group) say what I've been saying; for crying out loud, you could just draw out a map with crayons of the last two years of SB's Life (yellow for the magical highs and black for the utter darkness that followed), and it would be "near" impossible to go off anything but "psychological/personality disorders/neurotic tendencies" and all that fancy stuff. Maybe SoulBrotha hasn't explained to his Therapist thoroughly enough, but I'd imagine the guy has a decent enough idea by now...
> 
> The only thing I can think of is they are SO perplexed by SB's symptoms that they figure it goes beyond the mere rational reasonings behind his illnesses. But DP is symptomatic of anxiety, depression, and dissociation. These are professionals here... they must know of these symptoms. They're basic textbook. So why are they making him chase his tail? Even if he's doing it without their help, stepping in with some smackdown -- "you're symptoms are merely the result of blah blah blah" -- would be more honest, truthful, and BENEFICIAL than sending him to get more freaking tests done.


Yup, I have to agree. And this is why I am completely perplexed by the lack of a clear diagnosis and treatment plan after all this time. We here can't diagnose SoulBro officially, but yes, for crying out loud, LOL, he should have some working diagnosis by now!

As I always say, and as E. Fuller Torrey, M.D. has said, you need the diagnosis, first (granted he is an expert in schizophrenia), THEN you can take some clealy directed action.

I just guess I'm lucky, and have been in the past.

I could give a diagnosis here, but I won't.

I realize we can't pidgeonhole people, yet you have to have a place to start. After all of these years, from 1975 on, every psychiatrist I've seen has said, "Oh yeah, DP". They also recognized depression and anxiety.

The current diagnosis I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder (which granted, I don't believe existed in 1975, but what I got after extensive RE-testing in 1994), fits me pretty much to a "t".

I believe in neurological underpinnings of all DP, but I see the psychological factors in play as well. But yes, for crying out loud, if that psychiatrist doesn't answer his phone ... well ...

Bro, you shouldn't be chasing your tail.

In Peace,
Crabby D :shock:

And bro, no, not your head being hit, now or in the past.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

JasonFar said:


> Also, Janine, Dreamer,
> 
> Don't you find it a little striking that they can't just (alone or as a group) say what I've been saying; for crying out loud, you could just draw out a map with crayons of the last two years of SB's Life (yellow for the magical highs and black for the utter darkness that followed), and it would be "near" impossible to go off anything but "psychological/personality disorders/neurotic tendencies" and all that fancy stuff. Maybe SoulBrotha hasn't explained to his Therapist thoroughly enough, but I'd imagine the guy has a decent enough idea by now...
> 
> The only thing I can think of is they are SO perplexed by SB's symptoms that they figure it goes beyond the mere rational reasonings behind his illnesses. But DP is symptomatic of anxiety, depression, and dissociation. These are professionals here... they must know of these symptoms. They're basic textbook. So why are they making him chase his tail? Even if he's doing it without their help, stepping in with some smackdown -- "you're symptoms are merely the result of blah blah blah" -- would be more honest, truthful, and BENEFICIAL than sending him to get more freaking tests done.


Yup, I have to agree. And this is why I am completely perplexed by the lack of a clear diagnosis and treatment plan after all this time. We here can't diagnose SoulBro officially, but yes, for crying out loud, LOL, he should have some working diagnosis by now!

As I always say, and as E. Fuller Torrey, M.D. has said, you need the diagnosis, first (granted he is an expert in schizophrenia), THEN you can take some clealy directed action.

I just guess I'm lucky, and have been in the past.

I could give a diagnosis here, but I won't.

I realize we can't pidgeonhole people, yet you have to have a place to start. After all of these years, from 1975 on, every psychiatrist I've seen has said, "Oh yeah, DP". They also recognized depression and anxiety.

The current diagnosis I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder (which granted, I don't believe existed in 1975, but what I got after extensive RE-testing in 1994), fits me pretty much to a "t".

I believe in neurological underpinnings of all DP, but I see the psychological factors in play as well. But yes, for crying out loud, if that psychiatrist doesn't answer his phone ... well ...

Bro, you shouldn't be chasing your tail.

In Peace,
Crabby D :shock:

And bro, no, not your head being hit, now or in the past.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

Yes, yes and yes.

Hell, I don't care - I'll give a diagnosis to Soul Brotha (it might be the only one the poor guy ever GETS)

Generalized Anxiety Disorder/Obsessive features, dissociative features. Onset from rec drug use that provoked depersonalization, leading to self-monitoring and chronic self-obsession/hypochrondriasis. Possibly related HPPD visual disturbances that are aggravated by chronic anxiety.

The non-doctor is now leaving the building.

grin,
J


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

Yes, yes and yes.

Hell, I don't care - I'll give a diagnosis to Soul Brotha (it might be the only one the poor guy ever GETS)

Generalized Anxiety Disorder/Obsessive features, dissociative features. Onset from rec drug use that provoked depersonalization, leading to self-monitoring and chronic self-obsession/hypochrondriasis. Possibly related HPPD visual disturbances that are aggravated by chronic anxiety.

The non-doctor is now leaving the building.

grin,
J


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Dear Gimpy,
Re what you said below. DP/DR can come with EVERY psychiatric disorder, i.e. as a part of a constellation of symptoms. It IS common. It frequently lifts when the MAIN illness is treated. OCD, Bipolar, Depression, Panic Attacks.

The problem is DP/DR are poorly understood. And those of us whose PRIMARY COMPLAINT is DP/DR (I have depression and anxiety too, but DP is the most disabling) are in a slightly different group.

There IS research into DP/DR ... PRIMARY DP/DR (the ONLY symptom) is rare ... per Mauricio Sierra's work at the IoP. To the best of my understanding those who have ONLY DP/DR w/no anxiety, etc., etc. are rare, but he studies them to understand the mechanism of the symptoms.

People with brain tumors and TLE and other clearly neurological disorders ALSO have DP/DR.

I have a friend who has OCD. She had serious DP/DR along with it when she would panic. When the OCD was treated the DP/DR went away. My psychiatrist in L.A. was working with Bipolar patients. Many of them had DP/DR. If he controlled the bipolar, the DP frequently went away. There are articles on schizophrenics with DP/DR. Etc., etc., etc. Borderline Personality Disorder patients are known to have severe but shorter episodes of it.

So reasearch into ALL mental illness = research into DP/DR as it is that common.

We are oddballs in a sense ... those of us with chronic DP/DR (that would be me, 24/7) who has only partially responded to medication. And I don't have PRIMARY DP ... which is a very specific diagnosis ... I have GAD, and the DP/DR is most disabling of all of my other symptoms, so my doctor is treating my GAD, and trying to hit DP/DR which can be more resistant to treatment.

Researchers aren't clear on HOW DP/DR comes about in the brain. That doesn't mean it isn't common as it accompanies so many psychiatric/neurological illnesses.

Best,
D



> That third most common psychiatric symptom is a bunch of crap. Sure, everyone you ask will probably say they have felt an 'out of body' experience, be it through drugs, waking up in the middle night as if in a dream, or whatever. It's like asking a person if they have ever had a nervous tick, jerk, or spasm. Everybody has. Does that mean they have a nervous system problem. No. Why worry about it? When they have a seizure you know something is terribly wrong. When you first experience 'real' DP, you know something is wrong. It isn't something that last two or three seconds and you just laugh it off. Something is wrong, and you fear it.
> 
> The actual number of people with DP disorder, who experience DR as well, who have completely screwed up sensory perception, 2D vision, and the 'brain fog' that keeps you from remembering your name, is very small. Otherwise, there would be a lot more research on it.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Dear Gimpy,
Re what you said below. DP/DR can come with EVERY psychiatric disorder, i.e. as a part of a constellation of symptoms. It IS common. It frequently lifts when the MAIN illness is treated. OCD, Bipolar, Depression, Panic Attacks.

The problem is DP/DR are poorly understood. And those of us whose PRIMARY COMPLAINT is DP/DR (I have depression and anxiety too, but DP is the most disabling) are in a slightly different group.

There IS research into DP/DR ... PRIMARY DP/DR (the ONLY symptom) is rare ... per Mauricio Sierra's work at the IoP. To the best of my understanding those who have ONLY DP/DR w/no anxiety, etc., etc. are rare, but he studies them to understand the mechanism of the symptoms.

People with brain tumors and TLE and other clearly neurological disorders ALSO have DP/DR.

I have a friend who has OCD. She had serious DP/DR along with it when she would panic. When the OCD was treated the DP/DR went away. My psychiatrist in L.A. was working with Bipolar patients. Many of them had DP/DR. If he controlled the bipolar, the DP frequently went away. There are articles on schizophrenics with DP/DR. Etc., etc., etc. Borderline Personality Disorder patients are known to have severe but shorter episodes of it.

So reasearch into ALL mental illness = research into DP/DR as it is that common.

We are oddballs in a sense ... those of us with chronic DP/DR (that would be me, 24/7) who has only partially responded to medication. And I don't have PRIMARY DP ... which is a very specific diagnosis ... I have GAD, and the DP/DR is most disabling of all of my other symptoms, so my doctor is treating my GAD, and trying to hit DP/DR which can be more resistant to treatment.

Researchers aren't clear on HOW DP/DR comes about in the brain. That doesn't mean it isn't common as it accompanies so many psychiatric/neurological illnesses.

Best,
D



> That third most common psychiatric symptom is a bunch of crap. Sure, everyone you ask will probably say they have felt an 'out of body' experience, be it through drugs, waking up in the middle night as if in a dream, or whatever. It's like asking a person if they have ever had a nervous tick, jerk, or spasm. Everybody has. Does that mean they have a nervous system problem. No. Why worry about it? When they have a seizure you know something is terribly wrong. When you first experience 'real' DP, you know something is wrong. It isn't something that last two or three seconds and you just laugh it off. Something is wrong, and you fear it.
> 
> The actual number of people with DP disorder, who experience DR as well, who have completely screwed up sensory perception, 2D vision, and the 'brain fog' that keeps you from remembering your name, is very small. Otherwise, there would be a lot more research on it.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

LOL Janine! :shock: 
AMEN.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

LOL Janine! :shock: 
AMEN.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

PS, direct research into our DP/DR, folks here on the board who are able to function to one degree or another -- work, have a family -- and aren't psychotic is not the primary focus of research as:

1. Schizoprhenia
2. Depression
3. Bipolar

and I'm sure I left something else out, can result in hospitalization of patients, an inability for the individual to function at all, homelessness, erratic behavior in public.

We are relatively "normal" here compared to "The Major Mental Illnesses". There is less direct funding into it. However those studying all manner of psychiatric and neurological anomalies are running into DP.

Neurology is a place where understanding the complexities of the mind may very well lead to a greater understanding of DP/DR.

DP is out there, it just isn't a priority, as it is seen as part of a larger disorder.

Best,
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

PS, direct research into our DP/DR, folks here on the board who are able to function to one degree or another -- work, have a family -- and aren't psychotic is not the primary focus of research as:

1. Schizoprhenia
2. Depression
3. Bipolar

and I'm sure I left something else out, can result in hospitalization of patients, an inability for the individual to function at all, homelessness, erratic behavior in public.

We are relatively "normal" here compared to "The Major Mental Illnesses". There is less direct funding into it. However those studying all manner of psychiatric and neurological anomalies are running into DP.

Neurology is a place where understanding the complexities of the mind may very well lead to a greater understanding of DP/DR.

DP is out there, it just isn't a priority, as it is seen as part of a larger disorder.

Best,
D


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## GavinD (Aug 10, 2004)

I cannot believe that anyone on this board could try and dissuade someone from getting a test done. What on earth is there to lose from persuing every avenue? Yes, it could well be that soulbrotha's problems are entirely psychological, but that doesn't mean that just coz it more than likely is he has to make that assumption. personally i want EVERY test imaginable to find out exactly what is wrong with me. A) Because I want a chance to be cured and B) It would be great if doctors discovered some possible biological cause for DP. It is wrong for anyone to assume that it's written in stone that this is purely a psychological illness. Read my story in the stories section and you'll see that it aint necessarily so. Yes I agree that SoulBrotha has enough to worry about without adding new obsessions to the pile...but my answer to that is that he doesnt jump to any conclusions about the outcome of tests, but just sees it as a process of elimination.

There is nothing to lose soulbrotha and nothing to worry about. Have the scan done. Some people here may assume the test will be futile because they've already made their minds up that DP is purely psychological. As far as I'm concerned the only thing that is futile is making assumptions about things that are not yet fully understood.

g


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## GavinD (Aug 10, 2004)

I cannot believe that anyone on this board could try and dissuade someone from getting a test done. What on earth is there to lose from persuing every avenue? Yes, it could well be that soulbrotha's problems are entirely psychological, but that doesn't mean that just coz it more than likely is he has to make that assumption. personally i want EVERY test imaginable to find out exactly what is wrong with me. A) Because I want a chance to be cured and B) It would be great if doctors discovered some possible biological cause for DP. It is wrong for anyone to assume that it's written in stone that this is purely a psychological illness. Read my story in the stories section and you'll see that it aint necessarily so. Yes I agree that SoulBrotha has enough to worry about without adding new obsessions to the pile...but my answer to that is that he doesnt jump to any conclusions about the outcome of tests, but just sees it as a process of elimination.

There is nothing to lose soulbrotha and nothing to worry about. Have the scan done. Some people here may assume the test will be futile because they've already made their minds up that DP is purely psychological. As far as I'm concerned the only thing that is futile is making assumptions about things that are not yet fully understood.

g


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

Good post Gavin & i agree. I want to make sure that there is infact nothing wrong with my brain that isn't psychological and a brain scan i guess will clear that up.

Janine, thanks for the diagnosis, if infact all of this is strictly psychological than i probably have to agree with your diagnosis because it does make sense. Id just have to throw some depression in there as well.

Gimpy, im currently taking Klonopin & am weining off of Respirdal. I am also considering taking Paxil but i dunno whats gonna happen with that. Also you say " i spend alot of time on this board", Alot of people spend alot of time on this board. Matter of fact I used to spend more time on this board before than i do now. If you noticed for about a month period ( last month)i spent little time on this board, because i had a job & all of my close friends were still here. Well two of them moved to Florida and the other one is a full time student at college so if i see him at all it will be on weekends, if he comes back to the city. Sure i have other " friends" but actually they are probably more like associates and thats cuz alot of them still smoke & sell, & drink & do all the shit that i no longer do . All im doing right now is taking 4 courses & looking for a job and trying to get my life together which seems almost impossible. And yeah i do have the most posts i think, but thats cuz i often post in the THATS LIFE section of the site, where there is alot of continous posting.

Dreamer you make some good points like always, and i agree is hould get some sort of solid diagnosis. BTW, i believe my psychiatrist is a professor at Brown University.

Jason, " your bluntness is always so appreciated", Why is that you think i have a personality disorder??? What exactly is a personality disorder??? I don't pretend to be other people or have other identities so how is that i have this personality disorder that you speak of?? Also id like to clear this up, i was NOT addicted to MARIJUANA. There were periods of time where i went weeks, or even a few months without smoking and i was fine. I smoked because A. everyone around me was doing it, it was a social thing to do & i made friends & some money by doing so. B. Because for a time it was a stress reliaver and did take me away from the stress, anxiety, & depression that i was feeling, but like they say too much of a good thing is actually bad, and i think thats what happened in my case. I started to abuse it ( well not technically) didn't face my actual problems, and here i am today a full fledged mess.

I think that tehre is a 99 % chance, that i will get the Brain Scan done and who knows what will happen from there.

Peace


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

Good post Gavin & i agree. I want to make sure that there is infact nothing wrong with my brain that isn't psychological and a brain scan i guess will clear that up.

Janine, thanks for the diagnosis, if infact all of this is strictly psychological than i probably have to agree with your diagnosis because it does make sense. Id just have to throw some depression in there as well.

Gimpy, im currently taking Klonopin & am weining off of Respirdal. I am also considering taking Paxil but i dunno whats gonna happen with that. Also you say " i spend alot of time on this board", Alot of people spend alot of time on this board. Matter of fact I used to spend more time on this board before than i do now. If you noticed for about a month period ( last month)i spent little time on this board, because i had a job & all of my close friends were still here. Well two of them moved to Florida and the other one is a full time student at college so if i see him at all it will be on weekends, if he comes back to the city. Sure i have other " friends" but actually they are probably more like associates and thats cuz alot of them still smoke & sell, & drink & do all the shit that i no longer do . All im doing right now is taking 4 courses & looking for a job and trying to get my life together which seems almost impossible. And yeah i do have the most posts i think, but thats cuz i often post in the THATS LIFE section of the site, where there is alot of continous posting.

Dreamer you make some good points like always, and i agree is hould get some sort of solid diagnosis. BTW, i believe my psychiatrist is a professor at Brown University.

Jason, " your bluntness is always so appreciated", Why is that you think i have a personality disorder??? What exactly is a personality disorder??? I don't pretend to be other people or have other identities so how is that i have this personality disorder that you speak of?? Also id like to clear this up, i was NOT addicted to MARIJUANA. There were periods of time where i went weeks, or even a few months without smoking and i was fine. I smoked because A. everyone around me was doing it, it was a social thing to do & i made friends & some money by doing so. B. Because for a time it was a stress reliaver and did take me away from the stress, anxiety, & depression that i was feeling, but like they say too much of a good thing is actually bad, and i think thats what happened in my case. I started to abuse it ( well not technically) didn't face my actual problems, and here i am today a full fledged mess.

I think that tehre is a 99 % chance, that i will get the Brain Scan done and who knows what will happen from there.

Peace


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## JasonFar (Aug 13, 2004)

> As far as I'm concerned the only thing that is futile is making assumptions about things that are not yet fully understood.


Gavin,

I never once stated that DP is always the result of psychological reasons. Never. So don't go talking out of your bootay, acting as if we are declaring DP and everything in its very vaguest form to be traced to only one set of causes. I know (and do keep in memory) that there are cases like yours which (going by YOUR words) have no basis in any sort of case/effect or previous psychological problems. I do fully think that one can merely have avoided "symptoms" for many years, masking them, and the subsequent breakdown can therein BRING OUT the horde of new symptoms via DP and the like, but I'm not going to say this is the case for everyone, and you certainly seem to believe that you had no prior psychological distress or anything remotely resembling anxiety/depression/all that jazz. That being said, the evidence is high elsewhere. This board clearly points out people with an infinite range of psychiatric issues that underline their DP and anxiety symptoms. When people have "mental breakdowns", the symptoms are oh-so similar to those you see described here everyday -- unreality, loss of Self, utter petrification, yada yada yada.

SoulBrotha could get the test done, and he probably will. All I'm saying is this -- it's a waste of money, time, and hope. Be I so bold? I be. But I do hope to be proved wrong. But that won't be the case. Again, I need not bring back the diagram, and how clear cut the case seems to be. Even if we were to find a massive tumor in SoulBrotha's brain, he's STILL dealing with the subsequent results of mass drug abuse, an awkward and undirected step into young adulthood, academic confusion, etc etc. He's dealing with the undealt with thoughts, emotions, and symptoms that might have sprung up during his adolescence, but were pushed back down.

No, the question that I pose here, is "is there any way to fasten recovery from such a breakdown". I don't think it neccessarily implies that because he's being hit so hard over the head with reality, that he need suffer years on end to start to figure it out and get back to health. I guess that's where meds come in, and other forms of medicinal therapy. Clearly though Klonopin and other meds haven't seemed to work, so it's sort of a grey area there.

SoulBrotha when I say personality problems I don't neccessarily mean a personality disorder. One, I'm going off the behavior that you exhibited here for quite a while, but I mean, I think merely the amount of pot you did smoke (which you've cited several times) would imply personality problems; inability to cope with reailty, school, family, etc -- whether consciously aware of this fact or not. I mean, just the other day you stated you couldn't get up in front of the class to speak, which are signs of social anxiety and the subsequent avoidance (avoidant personality traits) by dropping the class. But anyway, I don't mean "personality disorder", just traits and symptoms that were indicators of the eventual DP/breakdown to come.


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## JasonFar (Aug 13, 2004)

> As far as I'm concerned the only thing that is futile is making assumptions about things that are not yet fully understood.


Gavin,

I never once stated that DP is always the result of psychological reasons. Never. So don't go talking out of your bootay, acting as if we are declaring DP and everything in its very vaguest form to be traced to only one set of causes. I know (and do keep in memory) that there are cases like yours which (going by YOUR words) have no basis in any sort of case/effect or previous psychological problems. I do fully think that one can merely have avoided "symptoms" for many years, masking them, and the subsequent breakdown can therein BRING OUT the horde of new symptoms via DP and the like, but I'm not going to say this is the case for everyone, and you certainly seem to believe that you had no prior psychological distress or anything remotely resembling anxiety/depression/all that jazz. That being said, the evidence is high elsewhere. This board clearly points out people with an infinite range of psychiatric issues that underline their DP and anxiety symptoms. When people have "mental breakdowns", the symptoms are oh-so similar to those you see described here everyday -- unreality, loss of Self, utter petrification, yada yada yada.

SoulBrotha could get the test done, and he probably will. All I'm saying is this -- it's a waste of money, time, and hope. Be I so bold? I be. But I do hope to be proved wrong. But that won't be the case. Again, I need not bring back the diagram, and how clear cut the case seems to be. Even if we were to find a massive tumor in SoulBrotha's brain, he's STILL dealing with the subsequent results of mass drug abuse, an awkward and undirected step into young adulthood, academic confusion, etc etc. He's dealing with the undealt with thoughts, emotions, and symptoms that might have sprung up during his adolescence, but were pushed back down.

No, the question that I pose here, is "is there any way to fasten recovery from such a breakdown". I don't think it neccessarily implies that because he's being hit so hard over the head with reality, that he need suffer years on end to start to figure it out and get back to health. I guess that's where meds come in, and other forms of medicinal therapy. Clearly though Klonopin and other meds haven't seemed to work, so it's sort of a grey area there.

SoulBrotha when I say personality problems I don't neccessarily mean a personality disorder. One, I'm going off the behavior that you exhibited here for quite a while, but I mean, I think merely the amount of pot you did smoke (which you've cited several times) would imply personality problems; inability to cope with reailty, school, family, etc -- whether consciously aware of this fact or not. I mean, just the other day you stated you couldn't get up in front of the class to speak, which are signs of social anxiety and the subsequent avoidance (avoidant personality traits) by dropping the class. But anyway, I don't mean "personality disorder", just traits and symptoms that were indicators of the eventual DP/breakdown to come.


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## JasonFar (Aug 13, 2004)

Ahs,

I also understand that SoulBrotha is probably a lot more dumbfounded than his respective psychiatrist(s). He's still, to be general about it, in a very shocked state, mentally and probably physiologically; he (theory) still can't believe how he got here, is completely overwhelmed by his sewer mental state, and all of the above. I'm sure, then, that his Therapist and whomever else has briefly gone over his case, have a pretty clear idea as to what exactly is going on here (they _have to_). That said, there is the objective knowledge of the Therapist, and what the patient knows (and wants to know, or is willing to know) about himself. I guess they can't just splurge on the details, because it might cause even more of a shock to SB's system.

At one point, for about a month, I obsessed pretty intensely on the idea that I too had screwed up my brain chemistry from marijuana. Not smoking it habitually, but I thought that cataclysmic experience I had that brought on panic and all that heavenly paranoia, existential squanderings, etc, might have readjusted my brain for the worse. The "only" answer my therapist ever gave me was "I'm not a doctor, but pot is like 16x more powerful than it was in the 60's, and it can often be laced with something." With that he implied (according to what I got from it) that a brain scan probably wouldn't hurt, and that possible physical damage shouldn't be left out of the equation. I believe he said these things because -- 1) he couldn't do anything about my obsessing that something "physical" (re: permanent) might be wrong and 2) he genuinely didn't know what effects marijuana this day in age might have, and was left guessing as to what the potential harmful effects really could be. At any rate, the obsessing stopped for me after a few more weeks, and waalaa, I'm here aren't I? *

Oh, and Dreamer, I never got an official diagnosis either. My therapist never believed in the importance of one. I did obsess and demand one for quite a while, but he claimed that was not of importance. Looking back I can only thank him for that (at least it got me around concentrating on the "label" opposed to getting better with my Life), but I think a diagnosis can be both helpful and not. In SB's particular case, I was not going for a diagnosis; I don't think it will accomplish anything, especially since there are so many wild symptoms running about.

* I realize I probably have an undetected brain hemridge that is waiting to implode. One day I'll probably spontaneously combust.


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## JasonFar (Aug 13, 2004)

Ahs,

I also understand that SoulBrotha is probably a lot more dumbfounded than his respective psychiatrist(s). He's still, to be general about it, in a very shocked state, mentally and probably physiologically; he (theory) still can't believe how he got here, is completely overwhelmed by his sewer mental state, and all of the above. I'm sure, then, that his Therapist and whomever else has briefly gone over his case, have a pretty clear idea as to what exactly is going on here (they _have to_). That said, there is the objective knowledge of the Therapist, and what the patient knows (and wants to know, or is willing to know) about himself. I guess they can't just splurge on the details, because it might cause even more of a shock to SB's system.

At one point, for about a month, I obsessed pretty intensely on the idea that I too had screwed up my brain chemistry from marijuana. Not smoking it habitually, but I thought that cataclysmic experience I had that brought on panic and all that heavenly paranoia, existential squanderings, etc, might have readjusted my brain for the worse. The "only" answer my therapist ever gave me was "I'm not a doctor, but pot is like 16x more powerful than it was in the 60's, and it can often be laced with something." With that he implied (according to what I got from it) that a brain scan probably wouldn't hurt, and that possible physical damage shouldn't be left out of the equation. I believe he said these things because -- 1) he couldn't do anything about my obsessing that something "physical" (re: permanent) might be wrong and 2) he genuinely didn't know what effects marijuana this day in age might have, and was left guessing as to what the potential harmful effects really could be. At any rate, the obsessing stopped for me after a few more weeks, and waalaa, I'm here aren't I? *

Oh, and Dreamer, I never got an official diagnosis either. My therapist never believed in the importance of one. I did obsess and demand one for quite a while, but he claimed that was not of importance. Looking back I can only thank him for that (at least it got me around concentrating on the "label" opposed to getting better with my Life), but I think a diagnosis can be both helpful and not. In SB's particular case, I was not going for a diagnosis; I don't think it will accomplish anything, especially since there are so many wild symptoms running about.

* I realize I probably have an undetected brain hemridge that is waiting to implode. One day I'll probably spontaneously combust.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Dear Gavin,
I hope you haven't gotten the impression that I'm dissuading anyone from getting all the tests necessary to rule out any cause. And I am of the scientific/biological camp who believes that DP/DR, however it came about, is a biological disorder. I'm of the belief it is the fight/flight response gone awry. Won't repeat myself further.

I've had a CAT, and EEG, bloodwork, and an extensive personality inventory, interviews, IQ testing, etc., etc. My doctor in Los Angeles, the best who is a psychopharmacologist, VERY biologically oriented, gave me the full treatment. It took him 6 two-hour session to come to a diagnosis as I have biological and psychological problems -- messed up family.

I also have a sense that drug-induced DP can be a differnet breed of cat than non-drug induced (which is what I have), but I think seeing as how there is a great similarity in our symptoms we had this predisposition under that stress. There also seems to be a common background with many of us which stems from various anxiety disorders -- anxiety we had as children.

Perhaps you aren't referring to me, but I wanted to clarify this.

Also, Bro, I know Brown is a top Ivy-League school, but I don't know that it has an outstanding Medical School. I could be wrong. I didn't even know it had a medical school. I'll Google it.

Bro, if you don't get satisfaction from these folks, and you can afford it, I'd go somewhere even more prominent on the West Coast. Go see Daphne Simeon in New York even!

It's excellent that your father is so active in pursuing answers. He is taking this seriously, and he should.

But again, don't make this "guessing game" everyone seems to be playing as another thing to worry about.

Good Luck in all of this.
Best,
D :shock:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Dear Gavin,
I hope you haven't gotten the impression that I'm dissuading anyone from getting all the tests necessary to rule out any cause. And I am of the scientific/biological camp who believes that DP/DR, however it came about, is a biological disorder. I'm of the belief it is the fight/flight response gone awry. Won't repeat myself further.

I've had a CAT, and EEG, bloodwork, and an extensive personality inventory, interviews, IQ testing, etc., etc. My doctor in Los Angeles, the best who is a psychopharmacologist, VERY biologically oriented, gave me the full treatment. It took him 6 two-hour session to come to a diagnosis as I have biological and psychological problems -- messed up family.

I also have a sense that drug-induced DP can be a differnet breed of cat than non-drug induced (which is what I have), but I think seeing as how there is a great similarity in our symptoms we had this predisposition under that stress. There also seems to be a common background with many of us which stems from various anxiety disorders -- anxiety we had as children.

Perhaps you aren't referring to me, but I wanted to clarify this.

Also, Bro, I know Brown is a top Ivy-League school, but I don't know that it has an outstanding Medical School. I could be wrong. I didn't even know it had a medical school. I'll Google it.

Bro, if you don't get satisfaction from these folks, and you can afford it, I'd go somewhere even more prominent on the West Coast. Go see Daphne Simeon in New York even!

It's excellent that your father is so active in pursuing answers. He is taking this seriously, and he should.

But again, don't make this "guessing game" everyone seems to be playing as another thing to worry about.

Good Luck in all of this.
Best,
D :shock:


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

Dreamer i was actually considering going to New York & to Mt.Sinai to go to the DP/DR clinic, but when my dad called, they said that you have to be off of all meds in order for them to be able to test you and eveluate you i guess.

And yes, Brown does have a medical school, i know this for a fact. Actually they are affiliated with the Mental Hospital here, which is one of the top 30 in the country. http://www.butler.org ( thats where my first psychiatrist worked) the place is HUGE, its like a college campus.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

Dreamer i was actually considering going to New York & to Mt.Sinai to go to the DP/DR clinic, but when my dad called, they said that you have to be off of all meds in order for them to be able to test you and eveluate you i guess.

And yes, Brown does have a medical school, i know this for a fact. Actually they are affiliated with the Mental Hospital here, which is one of the top 30 in the country. http://www.butler.org ( thats where my first psychiatrist worked) the place is HUGE, its like a college campus.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

As someone who, after all this time is still searching for the cause, the reason I am so messed up.............I say have the scan, the tests, the whole nine yards. Aside from the potential monetary hit I can't see that it would do any harm. On the other hand, and as somebody who has had lots and lots of scans, tests, etc., bottom line is - it is extremely unlikely anything out of the ordinary will show up. The tools used are simply too primitive yet to identify anything but relatively significant issues. And if you had "brain damage" that showed up on some scan, you would almost certainly be expierencing symptoms beyond what you've told us about.

I fully understand his desire to find the "reason." Lord knows I have spent years trying to have somebody tell me what is wrong with me. Tell me so I could believe it. Instead I spend my time switching from one theory to another, all while realizing none can be proved one way or the other. 
Also.............what if something should show up on the scan? Some damage, tumor, etc. significant enough to be picked up by the equipment? Bro - it's not like they can open your head up, put on a bandaid and call it good. Even though I sometimes wish a doctor could point to a test and say, "aha!", most of the time I hope they can't. At least if it is of purely psychological origin there may be a chance I can find my way out.

Get the test Bro-man. Let us know the results. Then try your best to believe it................


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

As someone who, after all this time is still searching for the cause, the reason I am so messed up.............I say have the scan, the tests, the whole nine yards. Aside from the potential monetary hit I can't see that it would do any harm. On the other hand, and as somebody who has had lots and lots of scans, tests, etc., bottom line is - it is extremely unlikely anything out of the ordinary will show up. The tools used are simply too primitive yet to identify anything but relatively significant issues. And if you had "brain damage" that showed up on some scan, you would almost certainly be expierencing symptoms beyond what you've told us about.

I fully understand his desire to find the "reason." Lord knows I have spent years trying to have somebody tell me what is wrong with me. Tell me so I could believe it. Instead I spend my time switching from one theory to another, all while realizing none can be proved one way or the other. 
Also.............what if something should show up on the scan? Some damage, tumor, etc. significant enough to be picked up by the equipment? Bro - it's not like they can open your head up, put on a bandaid and call it good. Even though I sometimes wish a doctor could point to a test and say, "aha!", most of the time I hope they can't. At least if it is of purely psychological origin there may be a chance I can find my way out.

Get the test Bro-man. Let us know the results. Then try your best to believe it................


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

well after the first few months of this, i didn't really worry about tumors or anything like that because again, if i had a brain tumor id have symptoms of it and by now id probably be in alot worse physical shape, or dead. I don't have any symptoms of one, infact is DP/DR a symptom of a brain tumor?? And also if i had one, the EEG would have picked up on something, or even my eye doctor, because i actually found out eye doctors are often the first people to discover tumors. I don't know what to think anymore, as i explained earlier now im just worrying about hitting my head yesterday at the gym and that it has caused further problems. I know its irrational, but i can't help it. Well i can, but its hard.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

well after the first few months of this, i didn't really worry about tumors or anything like that because again, if i had a brain tumor id have symptoms of it and by now id probably be in alot worse physical shape, or dead. I don't have any symptoms of one, infact is DP/DR a symptom of a brain tumor?? And also if i had one, the EEG would have picked up on something, or even my eye doctor, because i actually found out eye doctors are often the first people to discover tumors. I don't know what to think anymore, as i explained earlier now im just worrying about hitting my head yesterday at the gym and that it has caused further problems. I know its irrational, but i can't help it. Well i can, but its hard.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

If you want to have the brain scan, have the darn brain scan. But....I know that most folks here have a very confused idea of what a "brain scan" is actually going to show.

If you had a tumor (which you do NOT, lol...no, you have no symptoms of a tumor at all), then that would show up. Probably. Not necessarily though.

If you had major brain damage, a lesion, an actual SOMEthing physically on the surface of your cerebral cortex, that might show up. Maybe but not necessarily.

That's about it, folks. That's what "brain scans" can detect.

I think people get so excited by the CONCEPT of "looking inside the brain and seeing precisely what is amiss" that they project their fantasies/hopes and say "oh, yes, you MUST have a scan and find out for sure what it is!"

There is NO test, none, nada that can tell us what the vast majority (the HUGELY vast majority) of mental symptoms are about.

The reason to have a brain scan is to search for additional data to confirm an already logical hypothesis/diagnosis. The symptoms SoulBro has do not point to brain tumors or lesions, so I personally do not think it's a well-reasoned choice.

That said, have the scan. Won't hurt ya. But....and this is my only reason for being so emphatic: the more energy and effort and time you spend going down very remote tunnels, the less energy and effort you have to spend on what could really be getting you well (which is: push yourself back into life, find SOME way to stop the self-monitoring, such as CBT therapy, or your own will power, and keep talking about the stuff in your life, your fears, you hopes, your anger, etc...with a good therapist. Also experiment with medications in search of something to remove your intense anxiety and obsessional thinking).

Peace,
Janine


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

If you want to have the brain scan, have the darn brain scan. But....I know that most folks here have a very confused idea of what a "brain scan" is actually going to show.

If you had a tumor (which you do NOT, lol...no, you have no symptoms of a tumor at all), then that would show up. Probably. Not necessarily though.

If you had major brain damage, a lesion, an actual SOMEthing physically on the surface of your cerebral cortex, that might show up. Maybe but not necessarily.

That's about it, folks. That's what "brain scans" can detect.

I think people get so excited by the CONCEPT of "looking inside the brain and seeing precisely what is amiss" that they project their fantasies/hopes and say "oh, yes, you MUST have a scan and find out for sure what it is!"

There is NO test, none, nada that can tell us what the vast majority (the HUGELY vast majority) of mental symptoms are about.

The reason to have a brain scan is to search for additional data to confirm an already logical hypothesis/diagnosis. The symptoms SoulBro has do not point to brain tumors or lesions, so I personally do not think it's a well-reasoned choice.

That said, have the scan. Won't hurt ya. But....and this is my only reason for being so emphatic: the more energy and effort and time you spend going down very remote tunnels, the less energy and effort you have to spend on what could really be getting you well (which is: push yourself back into life, find SOME way to stop the self-monitoring, such as CBT therapy, or your own will power, and keep talking about the stuff in your life, your fears, you hopes, your anger, etc...with a good therapist. Also experiment with medications in search of something to remove your intense anxiety and obsessional thinking).

Peace,
Janine


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

^ Janine, wouldn't the EEG have picked up anything such as a brain tumor or the other thing you mentioned?


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

^ Janine, wouldn't the EEG have picked up anything such as a brain tumor or the other thing you mentioned?


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

Let the record show that me and Janine (sorta) said the same thing.

It's official. I have read too many of her posts.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

Let the record show that me and Janine (sorta) said the same thing.

It's official. I have read too many of her posts.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

LOL, SC....yep, it's too true. We're becoming ONE organism. dpcult, grin grin

SoulBro, YES! That is my point! LOL.....the eeg would have shown something that would have made the doctor want further information. That further information would be sought by the scan. It's not a logical avenue at this point.

Also, go back to the other psych's idea about PCP. Now come on, I'm not young and street, grin...but I would KNOW if I'd been given PCP. Do you think you accidentally ingested PCP and then didn't realize something was horribly wrong?

If you had experienced a horror trip, if you had THOUGHT you'd been given angel dust....then that theory might be worth discussing. There was, however, no evidence from your story that you had even a remote thought that you ingested PCP.

Logic.

Logic is our friend, grin

Love,
JB


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

LOL, SC....yep, it's too true. We're becoming ONE organism. dpcult, grin grin

SoulBro, YES! That is my point! LOL.....the eeg would have shown something that would have made the doctor want further information. That further information would be sought by the scan. It's not a logical avenue at this point.

Also, go back to the other psych's idea about PCP. Now come on, I'm not young and street, grin...but I would KNOW if I'd been given PCP. Do you think you accidentally ingested PCP and then didn't realize something was horribly wrong?

If you had experienced a horror trip, if you had THOUGHT you'd been given angel dust....then that theory might be worth discussing. There was, however, no evidence from your story that you had even a remote thought that you ingested PCP.

Logic.

Logic is our friend, grin

Love,
JB


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

SC you said:


> I fully understand his desire to find the "reason." Lord knows I have spent years trying to have somebody tell me what is wrong with me. Tell me so I could believe it. Instead I spend my time switching from one theory to another, all while realizing none can be proved one way or the other.


I'm a bit confused by this SC, and I've asked you about this before, too many times, forgive.

*Regardless of whether a doctor understands the mechanism, THE CAUSE, THE ORIGIN of an illness, a doctor can eliminate things and come to some logical diagnosis. The diagnosis is based upon the elimination of certain illnesses, and by the fact that many others 100s who have paraded through his/her office or a hospital, have shown up with the same group of symptoms.*

The treatment is in debate with DP/DR. But for me, I know that when I KNEW that's what I had there were some treatment options. Granted nothing helped until certain medications were available, but when they were available, I tried them and some worked, gave me a better quality of life.

Again, I always use this example... AIDS. This is my millionth time.

1. Some 25 years after the beginning of some heavy duty investigation and research into AIDS (originally GRID -- Gay Related Immune Deficiency, that was incorrect but that's how it first looked to doctors) NO cure, NO vaccination, NO understanding as to why a few people have HIV but don't develop AIDS, *there is a far greater understanding of how it is spread, and there are medications that can improve quality of life, and even extend the lives of those with AIDS. There is no cure, but it can be controlled.*

2. *We don't understand that little virus, but we can DIAGNOSE, we know what we are dealing with, we know how one can get it, transmit it, NOT get it. And the brain is far more complex than one little vicious virus.*

It isn't a perfect metaphor/analogy whatever, but w/DP/DR, anxiety we can know what it ISN'T. We can also be relatively certain about diagnosing mental illnesses. They fall on a spectrum, and there is always the "Not Otherwise Specified" category, but in the main, we have something to work with.

Someone has bipolar or they don't. Has schizophrenia (and there are many types that can be noted -- paranoid, hepephrenia, catatonic, etc.) or doesn't. They have OCD or they don't -- contamination version, hoarder/clutterer, checking type, etc.

If you look at the vast combination of illnesses, a constellation that appear in AIDS, it is astounding (various things from a skin cancer, to thrush, to a certain type of pneumonia, etc., etc.).

But there IS a pattern, and now a bloodtest can confirm that if the doctor believes the pattern indicates AIDS. And those who are asymptomatic who engage in risky behaviors should have their blood tested and will find if they are HIV positive or not and to act accordingly.

*With DP/DR a well trained M.D.psychiatrist can pretty quickly (within several sessions -- with my first doctor, 1 session or 2):

1. Rule out epilepsy and brain tumors, even by observation (or if one is suspicious of these can order neurological testing)

2. Note if one is psychotic or not

3. And generally diagnose someone with relative accuracy

and then find a plan of action after several more sessions.*

I have seen 5 main psychiatrists in my day (long term) starting in 1975. The change in psychiatrists was due to moving out of state, and in one case realizing the therapy was getting me nowhere.

Every single one of these different psychiatrists, including the first one, saw or affirmed the presense of DP/DR. When the first one gave me that word, I ran home to my mother's psychiatric texts, found it, read a case study and said, "OH MY GOD THAT'S ME. THAT IS THE FEELING I HAVE."

They also all saw anxiety and depression.

They never saw psychosis of any kind, OCD, bipolar, a personality disorder, epilepsy (I had an EEG in @1980), a tumor (CAT scan in @1980) ... went through the DSM-IV in their heads and from their training and they saw I had none of the illnesses in there save chronic DP/DR, anxiety, and depression.

They then had a basis for a treatment plan which included medication and talk therapy and later CBT.

There are a limited number of choices really in psychiatric illness. There is a spectrum within these illnesses, each patient can be unique, have different severity, different responses to treatment, etc. But if you look in the DSM-IV (the latest version which is now 10 years old) you can see what you DON'T have and what you DO have.

*Perhaps this seems too simple. But for me, once I knew what diagnosis I had I felt tremendous relief, even though there is no specific treatment for my DP/DR. There has been help for my depression and anxiety.*

ACH, I'm rambling, and have spent too much time here today, but psychiatric diagnosis is really far from voodoo. But one needs a good well-trained M.D. psychiatrist and you can get a clear picture and treatment plan. Whether the cause is known, or the treatment is effective is moot. At least you know what you've got.

It is highly unlikely, if not impossible, that anyone here has any illness that is not described or "labeled" in the DSM-IV, or the Merck Manual, or the ICD-9 ... the latter, an International Classification of Diseases, and I think they are on Number 9 now, so don't quote me.

Well, end of lecture. If I had a severe headache that lasted several days, I would go to a hospital, and they could rule out potential aneurysm or stroke, brain tumor, etc. and find the proper treatment. The treatment might not be effective. Why this came upon me might not be clear, but the diagnosis would then help the doctor treat the condition in the proper way.

OH, HELL. I've been spending too much time in this thread.
Forgive.
End of lecture.
Dreamer has left the building.
Take Care,
D :shock:


----------



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

SC you said:


> I fully understand his desire to find the "reason." Lord knows I have spent years trying to have somebody tell me what is wrong with me. Tell me so I could believe it. Instead I spend my time switching from one theory to another, all while realizing none can be proved one way or the other.


I'm a bit confused by this SC, and I've asked you about this before, too many times, forgive.

*Regardless of whether a doctor understands the mechanism, THE CAUSE, THE ORIGIN of an illness, a doctor can eliminate things and come to some logical diagnosis. The diagnosis is based upon the elimination of certain illnesses, and by the fact that many others 100s who have paraded through his/her office or a hospital, have shown up with the same group of symptoms.*

The treatment is in debate with DP/DR. But for me, I know that when I KNEW that's what I had there were some treatment options. Granted nothing helped until certain medications were available, but when they were available, I tried them and some worked, gave me a better quality of life.

Again, I always use this example... AIDS. This is my millionth time.

1. Some 25 years after the beginning of some heavy duty investigation and research into AIDS (originally GRID -- Gay Related Immune Deficiency, that was incorrect but that's how it first looked to doctors) NO cure, NO vaccination, NO understanding as to why a few people have HIV but don't develop AIDS, *there is a far greater understanding of how it is spread, and there are medications that can improve quality of life, and even extend the lives of those with AIDS. There is no cure, but it can be controlled.*

2. *We don't understand that little virus, but we can DIAGNOSE, we know what we are dealing with, we know how one can get it, transmit it, NOT get it. And the brain is far more complex than one little vicious virus.*

It isn't a perfect metaphor/analogy whatever, but w/DP/DR, anxiety we can know what it ISN'T. We can also be relatively certain about diagnosing mental illnesses. They fall on a spectrum, and there is always the "Not Otherwise Specified" category, but in the main, we have something to work with.

Someone has bipolar or they don't. Has schizophrenia (and there are many types that can be noted -- paranoid, hepephrenia, catatonic, etc.) or doesn't. They have OCD or they don't -- contamination version, hoarder/clutterer, checking type, etc.

If you look at the vast combination of illnesses, a constellation that appear in AIDS, it is astounding (various things from a skin cancer, to thrush, to a certain type of pneumonia, etc., etc.).

But there IS a pattern, and now a bloodtest can confirm that if the doctor believes the pattern indicates AIDS. And those who are asymptomatic who engage in risky behaviors should have their blood tested and will find if they are HIV positive or not and to act accordingly.

*With DP/DR a well trained M.D.psychiatrist can pretty quickly (within several sessions -- with my first doctor, 1 session or 2):

1. Rule out epilepsy and brain tumors, even by observation (or if one is suspicious of these can order neurological testing)

2. Note if one is psychotic or not

3. And generally diagnose someone with relative accuracy

and then find a plan of action after several more sessions.*

I have seen 5 main psychiatrists in my day (long term) starting in 1975. The change in psychiatrists was due to moving out of state, and in one case realizing the therapy was getting me nowhere.

Every single one of these different psychiatrists, including the first one, saw or affirmed the presense of DP/DR. When the first one gave me that word, I ran home to my mother's psychiatric texts, found it, read a case study and said, "OH MY GOD THAT'S ME. THAT IS THE FEELING I HAVE."

They also all saw anxiety and depression.

They never saw psychosis of any kind, OCD, bipolar, a personality disorder, epilepsy (I had an EEG in @1980), a tumor (CAT scan in @1980) ... went through the DSM-IV in their heads and from their training and they saw I had none of the illnesses in there save chronic DP/DR, anxiety, and depression.

They then had a basis for a treatment plan which included medication and talk therapy and later CBT.

There are a limited number of choices really in psychiatric illness. There is a spectrum within these illnesses, each patient can be unique, have different severity, different responses to treatment, etc. But if you look in the DSM-IV (the latest version which is now 10 years old) you can see what you DON'T have and what you DO have.

*Perhaps this seems too simple. But for me, once I knew what diagnosis I had I felt tremendous relief, even though there is no specific treatment for my DP/DR. There has been help for my depression and anxiety.*

ACH, I'm rambling, and have spent too much time here today, but psychiatric diagnosis is really far from voodoo. But one needs a good well-trained M.D. psychiatrist and you can get a clear picture and treatment plan. Whether the cause is known, or the treatment is effective is moot. At least you know what you've got.

It is highly unlikely, if not impossible, that anyone here has any illness that is not described or "labeled" in the DSM-IV, or the Merck Manual, or the ICD-9 ... the latter, an International Classification of Diseases, and I think they are on Number 9 now, so don't quote me.

Well, end of lecture. If I had a severe headache that lasted several days, I would go to a hospital, and they could rule out potential aneurysm or stroke, brain tumor, etc. and find the proper treatment. The treatment might not be effective. Why this came upon me might not be clear, but the diagnosis would then help the doctor treat the condition in the proper way.

OH, HELL. I've been spending too much time in this thread.
Forgive.
End of lecture.
Dreamer has left the building.
Take Care,
D :shock:


----------



## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

I cannot let this go, lol...(can you spell Obsessive Personality? lol)

Dreamer is 100 per cent correct.

When I came up with my little diagnosis of Soul Bro, it might sound like I'm just saying what I say because I believe in analtyic theory, etc. and that to me everything is anxiety/obsessions, or hypochondria.

The reality is that those people, who HAVE those problems, are the ones I am attracted to - so yes, I end up saying "this is what you have" because I've sort of adopted them.

A diagnosis is made based on techniques and skilled observations. Doctors don't just say "oh, you feel jittery, you must be anxious" or "you think you're very ill, you must be a hypochondriac"

The doctor is listening for the personality inherent WITHIN the mind that is exhibiting those symptoms. I KNOW SoulBro, as many of us do, because we have "observed" him here. We know he tends to obsess something horrible. And we know that when/if anyone writes the word "tumor" or "brainwave blockage" that in a few minutes he will be posting asking how he can know if that is what he has or not - (there is no such thing as Brainwave Blockage, grin....I just didn't want to offer anything else as bait to the poor soul)

We listen carefully to him and we observe how his mind works. We hear that he plays basketball and lifts weights and that he sometimes has an increase in dp when he's just had an argument with his father. We listen to WHEN he feels most anxious and how he vacillates in mood, from one day wanting to die to the next feeling like maybe he is really understanding his symptoms.

We listen to the types of thoughts/fantasies he has about himself. We hear his grand dreams and hopes and how furious he gets when he thinks he is limited. We listen to his rage. We listen to his appreciation for anyone who treats him respectfully. We listen to how well he blends in with his street bros, grin...and then, we listen to very different ways he can talk and be....and realize that he "adopts" a kind of image depending on where and how he needs to fit in. We listen to his history and his admission that he has always had secret obsessive thoughts. And we listen to how willing he is to try anything the doctors suggest. And from ALL THAT, we determine what is the likely cause of his symptoms.

Diagnosing is not voodoo as Dreamer said. It is highly logical, but it does take LOOKING at the entire person and asking the right questions.

Okay. Joining Dreamer now in the parking lot.

LOL,
J


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

I cannot let this go, lol...(can you spell Obsessive Personality? lol)

Dreamer is 100 per cent correct.

When I came up with my little diagnosis of Soul Bro, it might sound like I'm just saying what I say because I believe in analtyic theory, etc. and that to me everything is anxiety/obsessions, or hypochondria.

The reality is that those people, who HAVE those problems, are the ones I am attracted to - so yes, I end up saying "this is what you have" because I've sort of adopted them.

A diagnosis is made based on techniques and skilled observations. Doctors don't just say "oh, you feel jittery, you must be anxious" or "you think you're very ill, you must be a hypochondriac"

The doctor is listening for the personality inherent WITHIN the mind that is exhibiting those symptoms. I KNOW SoulBro, as many of us do, because we have "observed" him here. We know he tends to obsess something horrible. And we know that when/if anyone writes the word "tumor" or "brainwave blockage" that in a few minutes he will be posting asking how he can know if that is what he has or not - (there is no such thing as Brainwave Blockage, grin....I just didn't want to offer anything else as bait to the poor soul)

We listen carefully to him and we observe how his mind works. We hear that he plays basketball and lifts weights and that he sometimes has an increase in dp when he's just had an argument with his father. We listen to WHEN he feels most anxious and how he vacillates in mood, from one day wanting to die to the next feeling like maybe he is really understanding his symptoms.

We listen to the types of thoughts/fantasies he has about himself. We hear his grand dreams and hopes and how furious he gets when he thinks he is limited. We listen to his rage. We listen to his appreciation for anyone who treats him respectfully. We listen to how well he blends in with his street bros, grin...and then, we listen to very different ways he can talk and be....and realize that he "adopts" a kind of image depending on where and how he needs to fit in. We listen to his history and his admission that he has always had secret obsessive thoughts. And we listen to how willing he is to try anything the doctors suggest. And from ALL THAT, we determine what is the likely cause of his symptoms.

Diagnosing is not voodoo as Dreamer said. It is highly logical, but it does take LOOKING at the entire person and asking the right questions.

Okay. Joining Dreamer now in the parking lot.

LOL,
J


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

I never voluntarily smoked PCP and i never felt like i was tripping or hallucinating when high EXCEPT for one time, two years ago.

This was during my junior year of high school, i was selling weed at the time, mainly Hydro, which is a very potent form of marijuana. Well this kid called me up and wanted to buy some, and he offered to " spark me up" meaning, he would let me smoke with him. I had smoked this very kind of marijuana before so i knew how it would make me feel. Well we decided to smoke it out of a Bowl ( almost like a pipe) so theres no way it could have been laced. After we smoked it, i just started to feel soooooo weird, like i was very very high. The other kid who i had smoked it with, did NOT have the same reaction. Im not really sure if i hallucinated, i remember telling him that i thought i saw something in the road. I really don't know if i had a hallucination or not. I was high for a while, but the thing was, if it was infact PCP, wouldn't the other kid who i smoked with had some type of hallucination or very strange effect. I mean i know kids who have smoked PCP, matter of fact i remember one kid, started punching car windows because he wa so out of it. Im guessing i just had a very strange reaction to this very potent marijuana that i had. And a few days later i was fine, feeling normal, & my perception was back to normal. I probably should have quit all together after the day, but of course like an idiot, i didn't. It was definietly the weirdest high that i have ever had. But again Marijuana is a mild hallucinagenic so im guessing it can give you MILD hallucinations? Am i correct here??

I told all of this to my therapist & he was like " well the marijuana could have been laced when it was being treated" but if that was the case the person i got it from ( who also smoked it) and people i sold it to, would have hallucinated right?

btw, my THERAPIST/PSYCHOLOGIST is NOT the same person as my Psychiatrist.

Peace


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

I never voluntarily smoked PCP and i never felt like i was tripping or hallucinating when high EXCEPT for one time, two years ago.

This was during my junior year of high school, i was selling weed at the time, mainly Hydro, which is a very potent form of marijuana. Well this kid called me up and wanted to buy some, and he offered to " spark me up" meaning, he would let me smoke with him. I had smoked this very kind of marijuana before so i knew how it would make me feel. Well we decided to smoke it out of a Bowl ( almost like a pipe) so theres no way it could have been laced. After we smoked it, i just started to feel soooooo weird, like i was very very high. The other kid who i had smoked it with, did NOT have the same reaction. Im not really sure if i hallucinated, i remember telling him that i thought i saw something in the road. I really don't know if i had a hallucination or not. I was high for a while, but the thing was, if it was infact PCP, wouldn't the other kid who i smoked with had some type of hallucination or very strange effect. I mean i know kids who have smoked PCP, matter of fact i remember one kid, started punching car windows because he wa so out of it. Im guessing i just had a very strange reaction to this very potent marijuana that i had. And a few days later i was fine, feeling normal, & my perception was back to normal. I probably should have quit all together after the day, but of course like an idiot, i didn't. It was definietly the weirdest high that i have ever had. But again Marijuana is a mild hallucinagenic so im guessing it can give you MILD hallucinations? Am i correct here??

I told all of this to my therapist & he was like " well the marijuana could have been laced when it was being treated" but if that was the case the person i got it from ( who also smoked it) and people i sold it to, would have hallucinated right?

btw, my THERAPIST/PSYCHOLOGIST is NOT the same person as my Psychiatrist.

Peace


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

Yep, of course. If it was laced, it was laced to everyone who smoked it.

Also, listen...as much anger as you have, if you had smoked PCP, you would have removed someone's head and thrown it through a storefront. lol

It is NOT what happened.

Peace,
J


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

Yep, of course. If it was laced, it was laced to everyone who smoked it.

Also, listen...as much anger as you have, if you had smoked PCP, you would have removed someone's head and thrown it through a storefront. lol

It is NOT what happened.

Peace,
J


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

Hey Janine, Can we all have a brief diagnosis from yourself, based on what you know of us, just to make sure we're on the right forum?! I appreciate it might take a while but it's not like you have loads of people emailing or pm'ing you all day every day...

Just kidding! :lol:

But feel free to diagnose me anyday... :wink:


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

Hey Janine, Can we all have a brief diagnosis from yourself, based on what you know of us, just to make sure we're on the right forum?! I appreciate it might take a while but it's not like you have loads of people emailing or pm'ing you all day every day...

Just kidding! :lol:

But feel free to diagnose me anyday... :wink:


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2004)

Dear G-funk: sure. no problem. Clearly your diagnosis is that you have a Death Wish.

:twisted: 
LOL,
J


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2004)

Dear G-funk: sure. no problem. Clearly your diagnosis is that you have a Death Wish.

:twisted: 
LOL,
J


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## GavinD (Aug 10, 2004)

Sorry Dreamer, I shouldn't have been so vague. I was thinking of what Jasonfar was saying, not you.


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## GavinD (Aug 10, 2004)

Sorry Dreamer, I shouldn't have been so vague. I was thinking of what Jasonfar was saying, not you.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2004)

Dreamer and Janine, much thanks!


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2004)

Dreamer and Janine, much thanks!


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## JAG (Aug 31, 2004)

Quote from Soul Bro: "not one DOCTOR, has said to me " yes you have DEPERSONALIZATION OR DEREALIZATION" which is WHY i always question whether or not i really have it. "

Completely understandable. I went undiagnosed for 22 years, and I probably would have remained for longer if I hadn't had the Internet to find out for myself.
First of all I think the medical community should ask the right questions. People with undiagnosed depersonalization usually feel like they're going crazy and are afraid to tell doctors all their symptoms.
I find it strange that it is SO common yet I never knew other people were having the same symptoms as me. I was convinced I was completely alone in the world. Had I met the right doctor it probably would have saved me years of unnecessary suffering.
Afterall, in just a year and a half since I found out about DP I can tell I've improved tremendously and that improvement was from knowing what it was and what its cause was. Just that knowledge alone has made me feel a lot better. In fact it has dispelled my biggest fear which was the fear of losing reality completely.


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## JAG (Aug 31, 2004)

Quote from Soul Bro: "not one DOCTOR, has said to me " yes you have DEPERSONALIZATION OR DEREALIZATION" which is WHY i always question whether or not i really have it. "

Completely understandable. I went undiagnosed for 22 years, and I probably would have remained for longer if I hadn't had the Internet to find out for myself.
First of all I think the medical community should ask the right questions. People with undiagnosed depersonalization usually feel like they're going crazy and are afraid to tell doctors all their symptoms.
I find it strange that it is SO common yet I never knew other people were having the same symptoms as me. I was convinced I was completely alone in the world. Had I met the right doctor it probably would have saved me years of unnecessary suffering.
Afterall, in just a year and a half since I found out about DP I can tell I've improved tremendously and that improvement was from knowing what it was and what its cause was. Just that knowledge alone has made me feel a lot better. In fact it has dispelled my biggest fear which was the fear of losing reality completely.


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## john_henry (Sep 22, 2004)

janine,
No pcp from 1937 to 1977?? Where did you get that info? I was givin a joint laced with pcp in 1982 and never did come down from the high. Over the years it has got worse. I work from home now and only go out about once a week. I call this dp/dr but really it's just a permanent pcp high. Kinda like your dream state only the head feeling is worse. I do find that there is a fine line between a drug induced disorder and mental problems. I can assure you though that with some of us it is a chemical disorder and a mystery. 
Well i'm new here and my story is long and tiring to tell. My post on hppd.com will give you an idea of what is wrong with me if anybody cares to look.


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## john_henry (Sep 22, 2004)

janine,
No pcp from 1937 to 1977?? Where did you get that info? I was givin a joint laced with pcp in 1982 and never did come down from the high. Over the years it has got worse. I work from home now and only go out about once a week. I call this dp/dr but really it's just a permanent pcp high. Kinda like your dream state only the head feeling is worse. I do find that there is a fine line between a drug induced disorder and mental problems. I can assure you though that with some of us it is a chemical disorder and a mystery. 
Well i'm new here and my story is long and tiring to tell. My post on hppd.com will give you an idea of what is wrong with me if anybody cares to look.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Dear Janine,
No eye-poking,  but John Henry's post got me to researching. Pulled out the old "Chemistry of Mind Altering Drugs" -- a bible everyone should have. Well, for those of us obsessed with understanding the mind.

*"Earliest studies of the effects of PCP (Phencyclidine) on humanes, which date to 1958* [sigh, year of my birth 46 years ago], reported that this action was unlike any other known anesthetic. Although it produced complete analgesia, the patients were still awake, with eyes open. Soon after, if was noticed that transient psychotic states often developed in the post-operative period....."

*Research into the drug fizzled until 1962, but it was later marketed by Parke-Davis as Sernyl as an anesthetic which was again withdrawn from the market. It was reintroduced as a veterinary anesthetic, which has largely been replaced by ketamine.*

*It was in the 1970s that it became a street drug.*

Symptoms include:

"Body image changes"
"Estrangement"
"Disorganization of though"
"Negativism and hostility"
"Drowsiness and apathy"
"Inebriation and euponria."

See page 334 for detailed info.

Also, I was going to say that hallucinogens have been in existence since the dawn of man. Opiates in particular used to induce religious trances.

For some of us, any of these dissociative drugs, can open a common door to DP/DR or worse.

Just for clarification.
The research demon 
L,
D :shock:

*The Chemistry of Mind Altering Drugs: History, Pharmacology, and Cultural Context*
Daniel M. Perrine
(c) 1996
The American Chemical Society


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Dear Janine,
No eye-poking,  but John Henry's post got me to researching. Pulled out the old "Chemistry of Mind Altering Drugs" -- a bible everyone should have. Well, for those of us obsessed with understanding the mind.

*"Earliest studies of the effects of PCP (Phencyclidine) on humanes, which date to 1958* [sigh, year of my birth 46 years ago], reported that this action was unlike any other known anesthetic. Although it produced complete analgesia, the patients were still awake, with eyes open. Soon after, if was noticed that transient psychotic states often developed in the post-operative period....."

*Research into the drug fizzled until 1962, but it was later marketed by Parke-Davis as Sernyl as an anesthetic which was again withdrawn from the market. It was reintroduced as a veterinary anesthetic, which has largely been replaced by ketamine.*

*It was in the 1970s that it became a street drug.*

Symptoms include:

"Body image changes"
"Estrangement"
"Disorganization of though"
"Negativism and hostility"
"Drowsiness and apathy"
"Inebriation and euponria."

See page 334 for detailed info.

Also, I was going to say that hallucinogens have been in existence since the dawn of man. Opiates in particular used to induce religious trances.

For some of us, any of these dissociative drugs, can open a common door to DP/DR or worse.

Just for clarification.
The research demon 
L,
D :shock:

*The Chemistry of Mind Altering Drugs: History, Pharmacology, and Cultural Context*
Daniel M. Perrine
(c) 1996
The American Chemical Society


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2004)

I'm having a BUSY crazy day at work...but will chime in briefly to say "you're right!" to the hairball and John.

I actually sort of knew somewhere in back of my (old) brain that PCP had been around a very long time, but I think what I meant was that the ?street use? or availability wouldn?t have been the same back pre 1970.

Peace,
J
p.s. mostly posting so folks won't wonder where I am today, just swamped!


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2004)

I'm having a BUSY crazy day at work...but will chime in briefly to say "you're right!" to the hairball and John.

I actually sort of knew somewhere in back of my (old) brain that PCP had been around a very long time, but I think what I meant was that the ?street use? or availability wouldn?t have been the same back pre 1970.

Peace,
J
p.s. mostly posting so folks won't wonder where I am today, just swamped!


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