# Most of you are fighting a hopeless cause



## Guest (Sep 8, 2005)

(I do write good titles, don't I? grin grin)

But there is some truth in that title, because most of us have hopeless *goals*. We are stubborn and we are determined and we are desperate. And we will fail.

We WANT to finally get to the point where we can edge right up to the "OH MY GOD!" moment of abject terror - that moment where we feel each time 'this is it! I am really honestly going to lose control of myself in two seconds!!!!" - and be able to REALIZE in that moment that despite how it feels, we will be okay. *We want to master it.*

We want to be able to FEEL like we're right on the edge of total insanity and then TURN IT AROUND and be able to say 'now I understand...yes, that was only a thought and now I am in control of myself.."

That is how we WANT to recover. We want to master it.

However, that is not ever going to be possible.

NEVER.

Not ever.

Not today, or tomorrow or next year.

NOt with the "right meds' or the "right person" or the right attitude.

THAT IS NOT HOW THE MIND WORKS.

What you are chasing after is as ridiculous as if you were to say 'I want to heal my depression by realizing I don't need to be so SAD when I'm depressed."

IF you're IN it, you're IN IT. If you are having a massive anxiety surge, there is NO way, NOTHING you can say to yourself will make you able to turn it OFF at will. Nor will you be able to convince yourself to not be afraid of the terror!

You will HEAL when you stop GOING there in the first place.

You guys are too focused on trying to STOP the horrible feelings once they are flying full force. You can't. If it ever seems like you DO, it's an illusion. They were just abating anyway and you fooled yourself into thinking you "did it"

You cannot "have" a panic attack without PANICKING!

You cannot "have" feelings of unreality without feeling highly unreal.

You cannot "have" a loss of sense of self without being very freaked out by it!

So how do you stop yourself from getting to those horrible peaks and surges? You stop focusing on your own symptoms. you stop LOOKING at yourself like you're under a microscope. Naturally, you will still have anxiety and ruminating thoughts and dp and dr and all kinds of awful mind states for awhile - *but you can FEEL the states and still not focus straight into the eye of them.*

You keep yourself stuck EVERY SINGLE time you turn your focus inward - every single time you try to WIN in the battle over these mind states. It's not a Jedi battle where you can fight them head on. *You defeat them by starvation, not by direct contact.*If you turn your attention away, as much as humanly possible and yes, it is VERY hard - every single time you want to monitor yourself, every time you want to "check in" on yourself and observe closer and try to figure out why you're feeling this way, etc.....TURN AWAY from those powerful urges to self-investigate, then you will begin to recover. And if you can KEEP doing it, you will recover.

Will you stay recovered? I have no idea. Personally, I can't imagine how you could unless you do some indepth work on yourself in therapy and learn more about yourself and learn to really LOOK at reality and you and your place in it.....but that is the long and very time-consuming work ahead. That's how people STOP having breakdowns, and stop falling back into the pit.

But to climb out of the pit? STOP OBSERVING THE PIT.

_*Stop trying to win the battle, and instead, win the war.*_

Love ya,
Janine
p.s. and I was just like the "we" I describe above. I spent nearly 15 yrs. trying to do it my way. And what a sad waste of time.


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## Imagine (Oct 24, 2004)

Thank you for that, J.


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## SillyPutty (Mar 29, 2005)

Say someone decided to go through the therapy and whatever was neccessry to work it out so they don't ever return to the pit again, will you have to explore the pit in therapy? So that may make it worse in the beginning right?


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

I'm not who you probably want an answer from, but I'll offer one anyway, Silly:

Maybe, but not necessarily. With good therapy, you're likely to feel better immediately when you relieve the pressure of those bottled up unconscious feelings that are likely causing your misery. The "DP" is (1) the buried feelings trying to get out, and (2) your plugging the crater of the volcano so that they are kept inside, where the pressure builds and builds and builds and builds.

In therapy, you let out the feelings slowly and relieve the pressure. As a result, the pressure should reduce.

The pain of what you don't want to face may be great, but it's usually not the monster your unconscious wants you to believe it is.

The cure is NOT worse than the disease.


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## SillyPutty (Mar 29, 2005)

Thanks, well said.


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## MrMortgage (Aug 26, 2005)

Well said! Just like the Linden Method!


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2005)

There is alot more to it than letting your feelings out. Trust me, I was a master at venting my emotions all over the walls, lol.

Some of the most useful changes/insights that can arise in therapy involve areas where we stay stuck. We're not stupid - we can listen to someone say "you MUST focus outward to get over the DP!" and we certainly comprehend that advice. But we don't WANT to do it. And that part of self who KEEPS us stuck, the stubborn part that is getting something (or is searching for something) by continuing to do the SAME THINGS in the SAME WAY must be faced and understood.

It's not easy work. But if we keep repeating ways of being, trying, acting, coping that clearly are not working, then there are reasons. Human beings are not just simple souls who need direction. You could be given the Rules to the Universe and Happiness in a damn scroll, dropped at your feet by an angel, and you would STILL be pulled like a ten ton magnet towards doing OTHER things, in the ways you've always done them.

We do not want to change.

We SAY we do, we THINK we do - we truly believe that we woudl do ANYthing to get over our symptoms. But we're not that simple and straight forward.

Every human has a myriad of agendas and motives and reasons for being - and sometimes those collide with each other within the same person. Do the "best" ones win? Nope. The STRONGEST ones win, and strong usually means oldest, most hidden, most misunderstood and most linked to feelings and thoughts about ourselves that we don't want to deal with.

That is the "meat" of the Depth Therapies. Change is slow and very hard won. WHEN it works, and very often it doesn't, it is a victory of self over self - we have managed to battle our own worst enemy, laden with poor defense mechanisms from years gone by. But the prize is soverignty over our own minds.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2005)

you can never master something you dont fully understand

I have been DP/DR free for the past few days.... mainly cause i did so much reseach about dissociative disorders, i pretty much had no choice but to relate my symptoms to techniques to overcome them

To master this, is to understand it.


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## Mipmunk (Oct 28, 2004)

but I know why I got DP, the self defence protect mechanism protecting me from what happened to my cat. But now it won't switch off, and I don't know how to switch it off?

Mip
x


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## Universal (May 30, 2005)

I think we need alot more insight, suggestions and guidance to properly be led into the path of recovery. If it would be as easy as some of you suggest, none of us would be here. Indeed we are all suffering primarily because DP/DR is NOT as certain as some of the other illnesses. It's a fairly changeable and unpredictable phenomenon, with each having different symptoms and complications and so forth. IF there was only that magic key that would unlock our troubled minds, I would do anything to obtain it. But there isn't. I remember once I did come out of DP, but now I am in it again. It's a bitch. It's a bitch to try and cure with simple techniques like CBT or Hope And Help For Your Nerves by Claire Weekes. These work, but they by no means signal a victory over this unpredictable monster. To slay the monster there has to be alot of work done, most likely with a caring, understanding professional who is willing to work with you.

just my 2 cents


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2005)

your right it isnt as easy as i make it out to be...

But i also think nobody listens to me.... i might as well just stop giving advice cause i really dont wanna help people that dont want my help


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

Good post. And welcome back. Those of you who read that advice and are thinking "hmm...that makes sense" really need to *actually* listen to it, and implement what it says. The woman's right.

However (disclaimer) I disagree that we all _need_ therapy. I don't think that's necessarily true, and believing it is often sets up the kind of mindset that says "well I might as well not bother to do this, I still need years of therapy to be able to etc. etc."

What you need is _change_. Change in the way you think, the way you realize what you're doing and why you're really doing it (self-realization, unsurprisingly, tends to help depersonalization), change in lifestyle and so on.

SOME of us need therapy, as a result of some deep-seated issues or traumas that have occurred. Many of us, however, don't.


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

I'm starting to think that CBT techniques are also applicable, in addition to depth work.


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

It depends who you believe, I guess.

All this "focusing outward" stuff is really a form of CBT. It's changing your thought patterns to change the way you feel.

The difference seems to be that some people, Janine being one, believe that there needs to be more than that - that you need some therapy to uncover the deep-seated causes of your symptoms. Others think that it's JUST the thoughts and behaviour patterns bringing on the symptoms, and that by changing those, you can eliminate the beast.

I'm not sure who's right. But I think that for at least SOME people, the latter alone suffices.


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

I just don't understand how avoiding and turning away our thoughts is gonna help. I understand how it helps dp. But what should someone like me do, a panic attack sufferer? I hear from one end to fight the panic attacks head on to erase the fear, but yet that makes the dp worse. So I have dp that causes panic attacks. So how to I avoid the dp, while facing my fear of the panic attacks at the same time? Nobody seems to have an answer for this. I've been "tuning out" and avoiding the panic and dp for three years and I'm still in the same place I was three years ago. I always have that constant fear in the back of my head. I'm stuck in an idle stage of just getting along by trying to not think about the dp when it hits. It's just frustrating that I don't know how to fight the panic attacks and dp when the cures for each are on two completely opposite ends.


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

enngirl5,

Who told you to FIGHT the panic? That's the very thing that perpetuates it.

Read _Hope and Help for Your Nerves_.

The key is *not *to fight panic but to allow it to come and then let it go.

Where did you get the idea that you could fight panic successfully? That's like pouring gasoline on a fire.


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## peaceboy23 (May 25, 2005)

Thanks for a great post again, janine. The times that I'm able to focus outward it's the best i feel. I kind of think of DP like a bully, as I've mentioned before. DP is like a big, mean, ugly, scary bully. It is there and it towers over us, calling us names, taunting us. However, like a bully, the best way to get past dp is to ignore it. It's hard, and a lot of times we want to confront it, thinking that's the best way to get rid of the bully, but really it just pisses him off more. Sometimes when we ignore the bully, he harasses us even more, but eventually he gives up and goes away. The bully relies on our reactions to him to continue his bullying. Ignore him, push him to the side and walk on past him, and you'll get better. Mind you, I still confront the bully most of the time, but I know the tactics to get past him, I just need to put it into action more. (I do love metaphors, can you tell). 8)


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2005)

Actually, I mostly agree with MonkeyDust there. I don't believe anyone NEEDS therapy (well, except maybe Martin, grin grin). There are always unique reasons, life situations, drug experiences, etc. that may have precipitated a person's DP experience - and for some people, resolving that particular trauma might be enough to prevent relapsing into mental symptoms down the line.

However, and yes, I am not a doctor, not even a therapist *quite yet (still in school), I cannot for the life of me see how anyone like ME, who had all kinds of murrmerings of distress all her life and then finally broke down totally, slowly pieced herself sort of back together, limped along, had another breakdown, then another - I don't see how a person like that could ever truly achieve freedom of mental torment without going to the root of the pain. I could be wrong. As Monkeyman said, CHANGE is needed. And that I agree with totally.

But I still maintain, despite those who disagree with me, these symptoms are for the most part created from self-lies, massive primitive defenses and from patterns of compulsions to repeat past unacknowledged pain. Most people who live with mental symptoms most of their lives do not know themselves welll - and the symptoms are the cost.

J


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## Kelson12 (Aug 10, 2004)

JanineBaker said:


> Actually, I mostly agree with MonkeyDust there. I don't believe anyone NEEDS therapy (well, except maybe Martin, grin grin). There are always unique reasons, life situations, drug experiences, etc. that may have precipitated a person's DP experience - and for some people, resolving that particular trauma might be enough to prevent relapsing into mental symptoms down the line.
> 
> However, and yes, I am not a doctor, not even a therapist *quite yet (still in school), I cannot for the life of me see how anyone like ME, who had all kinds of murrmerings of distress all her life and then finally broke down totally, slowly pieced herself sort of back together, limped along, had another breakdown, then another - I don't see how a person like that could ever truly achieve freedom of mental torment without going to the root of the pain. I could be wrong. As Monkeyman said, CHANGE is needed. And that I agree with totally.
> 
> ...


But how do we get to know ourselves??? How do I figure out what deep down pain is causing this??? How do I discover those self-lies, primitive defenses, etc. I understand that the symptoms are the cost of these things....but if I don't know what the self-lies, etc. are how do I confront them????


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

Sojourner,

I don't mean fight the panic. I mean face the panic. You say we need to let the panic happen and wash over us. Yet Janine says to turn away from the dp as soon as it hits. Ignore it. So how can I "let" the panic heppen, and ignore the dp at the same time? I desperately need answers to this.


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

A line from a favourite film of mine, War Games

'Strange game...the only way to win, is not to play'


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

enngirl,

It's confusing, I know, because we each get panic and DP at different times, but we agree they are connected.

I don't think Janine is saying "turn away" as much as she is saying "turn toward." When DP strikes, _turn toward _something other than how you feel.

The same thing holds for panic, don't run from it and don't _face _it, but *float by it on your way toward something other than the fear*. If you spend the $6 to buy Claire Weekes' book, _Hope and Help for Your Nerves_, you will not be sorry, and you will have a resource at your fingertips that you will treasure. She gives you more of the background and a wonderful reassurance. I highly recommend the book.

Does this help? I urge you to get that book. Amazon has it.


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

You always help sojourner. You always get what I'm asking. Thanks. I'll go get that book. Add it to my collection of panic attack books, :wink: .


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

Glad to hear it! :lol:

Keep in mind that the book was written in 1969. It is recommended by physicians worldwide.

Because of its age, you may find things sound a bit outdated in parts, but that should only add a bit of charm to it!

This is also a book suitable for family members.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2005)

kelson12 said:


> JanineBaker said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, I mostly agree with MonkeyDust there. I don't believe anyone NEEDS therapy (well, except maybe Martin, grin grin). There are always unique reasons, life situations, drug experiences, etc. that may have precipitated a person's DP experience - and for some people, resolving that particular trauma might be enough to prevent relapsing into mental symptoms down the line.
> ...


im thinking therapy, but i could be wrong?


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2005)

Wow. I had a panic attack earlier today, and I tried to pull out of it as it was happening. Needless to say, that didn't work.

Janine's first post was like a ray of light parting clouds. Your brain can't feel panic without being affected by the chemicals that produce that feeling, and if the chemicals are there, you can't pull out of it. Same with anxiety, and depression. An important realization for me.


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

here's an analogy:

are you the kind of person that says "I'm NOT going to [leave the house, get a job, achieve this or that goal, make friends] until the dp is gone!"

--------------

now imagine sitting in your room as a teenager when your first loser girl/boyfriend dumps you and you are saying "IM NOT LEAVING THIS ROOM UNTIL THEY COME BACK!"

wow, that would be, like, totally irrational. because you could be in there for a long time, miss out on a lot of hot dates, and...you would be slave to the whims of another person.

that person would control you wouldn't they?

----

so when you say you're not going to do this or that or you're not going to have fun until the dp is GONE, you're totally giving your control to an irrational force, that, like the boy or girlfriend, you have no control over and may never do what you will it to.

-----

maybe your dp is an analogy for your real life situations, where you REFUSE to do [this thing that thing] until the people around you change, until your enemies apologize or your lovers come back or what have you.

and maybe if you worked on THOSe attitudes, you Would see a difference in your dp. you maybe really really would.!

-------

oh, and with the above analogy between Dp'd you and the heartbroken teenager, don't you see the irrational reasoning there? by giving dp the power you're basically saying that "sitting here in the house will lead to a result of cure." now how do you figure? Or "If i can think it through enough i can beat it" sounds a bit magical there. have you ever been able to think your way out of a common cold? you would probably be miserable trying. That's actually the thing making you miserable, btw. Not the DP itself but the attempt to figure it out and cure it.

i get really miserable over past situations if i sit and THINK about them and analyze them. But when i go out to new places and meet people, i forget about those situations for long periods of time until they're way less important. same kind of principle.


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

Good to see you, person3. I've missed you. :lol:


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

It's the same thing with an ex boyfriend or girlfriend. As long as you randomly call them and see them, you're never gonna get over them. Everytime you see their face or hear their voice, all those feelings come back full force. But if you stop seeing them and talking to them, you start to forget them. You forget all those feelings, what they felt like, looked like, smelled like, how you felt with them. As time goes by, the pain becomes less and less until there is none anymore. I learned this trick a long time ago. It's a shame I can't learn it with the dp.


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## rainboteers (Apr 5, 2005)

person3 said:


> here's an analogy:
> 
> are you the kind of person that says "I'm NOT going to [leave the house, get a job, achieve this or that goal, make friends] until the dp is gone


oh wow this exactly my problem... I don't want to live my life or get back to it if it feels like this... yet I realize part of getting well is doing just that... getting back to my life...


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

rainboteers-

do you think THAT many people, dp'd or not, want to live their life? most people don't. but they do it anyway.


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## rainboteers (Apr 5, 2005)

Person3,
Well I can only speak for myself, but before this happened I was very involved in and enjoyed living my life very much.

Now I feel so disconnected and depressed... I have basically went on strike thinking well if this is how I have to live then just forget it.

A childish and ineffective way at dealing with this I am aware, and I'm working on changing it.


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

what caused your dp?


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

was just about to ask that myself


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## jake (Jul 12, 2005)

I know the question was to rainboteers, but the more I ask myself this question......hmm. It really seems I have had some form of space-out, unreal, unhappy, trying to "fight" to get thru life "normally"..ALL my life. Only difference is that at some point I knew these things had names---depression, anxiety, depersonalizaion, fear, self-doubt, self-loathing...


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## rainboteers (Apr 5, 2005)

Okay I will try and explain the best I can. Bear with me if this is confusing. I suppose it was a combination of things. I experienced something traumatic that I don't feel comfortable discussing. I was under a great deal of stress (which was my own fault). I took way to many hours in school, had a lot going on in my life and I was just stretched way to thin.

I have previously been through quite a bit of medical issues. I was diagnosed with psuedo tumor cerebri after a looooong time of feeling horrible and not knowing what was wrong with me.

After the trauma I was pretty depressed but I was getting through it. I went to the dr. for an appointment because I had been having a lot of headaches. After listening to my symptoms the dr. said I think you have an anxiety disorder. Well that was the last straw for me. I thought omg DISORDER. I can not go through anything esle. Trauma, medical issues, not a disorder too.

A few days later I was in class and I was thinking about what the dr. had said and I thought oh great watch me start having panic attacks. Then immediately I had one. :roll: Then I had more.

After a few panic attacks and just not dealing with the trauma properly everything started to feel really different to me. I looked in the mirror and felt like I was looking at a stranger. I couldnt connect with my own memories. Looking at pictures was odd as I felt like a different person. Like someone I no longer recognized. My friends and family felt distant and I couldnt connect with them either. I thought for sure I was losing my mind and I got extremely depressed. I have improved a little bit since it started but I'm still pretty miserable.


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 9?v=glance

Read this book.


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## Da'Burgh (Apr 25, 2005)

stop plugging that book geez


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

Why? It's a good book that might help people.


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## w_connelly (Dec 20, 2004)

In that book does it mention anything worth noting in the feeling of unreality section?


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## M A R S (Jun 24, 2005)

w_connelly said:


> In that book does it mention anything worth noting in the feeling of unreality section?


? X2


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

w_connelly said:


> In that book does it mention anything worth noting in the feeling of unreality section?


pp. 120-126, 137


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## w_connelly (Dec 20, 2004)

I know that the section is there, i'm just wondering if there were any main points that she has written within the section worth mentioning?


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

The entire book is chock full of nothing but worthwhile content. If you pay the exorbitant amount of money they're asking for this book you will be making a big mistake by reading only that section. In fact, you might as well not part with such a huge sum of money if that's your plan. But find some other schmo to spoon-feed you. :lol:


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## M A R S (Jun 24, 2005)

Sojourner said:


> The entire book is chock full of nothing but worthwhile content. If you pay the exorbitant amount of money they're asking for this book you will be making a big mistake by reading only that section. In fact, you might as well not part with such a huge sum of money if that's your plan. But find some other schmo to spoon-feed you. :lol:


ZAAAANg!


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

You betcha... 8)


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

person3 said:


> do you think THAT many people, dp'd or not, want to live their life? most people don't. but they do it anyway.


 :shock:

I do. And I still find great joy sometimes in the smallest things. DP/DR chronic for 31 years. Episodic for the 15 years before. Despite a lot of Hell, I think about it, and I wouldn't change a million rich experiences I've had.

My mantra: We are all unique!
Best,
Old Dreamer, pushing 47 8)


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## peacedove (Aug 15, 2004)

w_connelly said:


> In that book does it mention anything worth noting in the feeling of unreality section?


I have this book and I remembered being really happy that it even mentioned unreality... but then I was disappointed in how little it said about it.

I don't even know if I finished this book, but I might just go pull it out of the garage and read it again since it's being recommended so much.

Actually I think I recommended it also in the past... god my memory is really getting bad.


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## *Alex (Sep 27, 2004)

Bump...Just in case some people didnt read this. Everyone should read it and put it in their own words on MS Word and then put it into practice.


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