# A Big Thank-you



## Guest

to all religious people here, Christian and non-Christian, who try to live their faith graciously and don't use it to pummel others.

THANK YOU!


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## MrMortgage

* YES AND FOR ALL THE NON-RELIGOUS PEOPLE WHO DONT PUT DOWN OTHERS AND ATTACK OTHERS FOR KNOWING THE TRUTH! A BIG THANK YOU TOO.*


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## MrMortgage

Look at this girl here! Dividing people into groups now. Putting down others and raising up some. Good grief man.


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## boohoo

And look at this naughty boy who insists his own religion is the truth.

Mr Mortgage dear, my religion is one of the most socially unaccepted in my country, unlike Christianity which seems to gain status. I'm a New Age Spiritualist incase you're wondering. I've put up with a lot of shit due to my beliefs - yet I don't discuss my religion or argue it. I was brought up not to discuss religion, or politics, not that I know anything about politics. And I can see why people are advised against going on about religion. It causes a divide. I have much respect for others, even if they believe in God. But I don't have as much respect for those who try to force their own religion onto others.
Not that anyone gives a fuck about what I think, but you see what I mean.
Wow, I'm just purrrrfect!!! Yeah baby yeah


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## Guest

Without wishing to offend anyone - why the hell would I need religion in order to live graciously?

I have morals, and an (overactive) sense of guilt.

I answer to myself, not some big beardy in the sky throwing lightening about...


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## MrMortgage

:lol:


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## Homeskooled

Dear Mrmole, 
I just wanted to throw something in here. Its not a question of "wanting" religion. If you're looking at it from that point of view, whether your a beleiver or an atheist, then you're missing the point. What you need to be asking is "Is it real?" and "What is the truth?". You cant go wrong with those questions from a scientific standpoint or from my own, as a Roman Catholic. If your starting from a blank slate, you dont really know if you "want" the truth or not. You just have to seek it out. And I know truth about the afterlife and things we cant see is difficult to ascertain to say the least, which is why there is so much divide over it. But eventually, its part of the human condition to want an answer. Someone on here, I dont know if it was Sebastian or Scattered, said that intuition and the truth are not the same thing. Quantum physics is against our intuition, and yet it is true. So there will be aspects of the truth that you probably wont like, just as there are aspects of the "real" world we all hate. But these are the way that things exist, and some of them you cant change. So I would just be prepared, if I was seeking out spiritual truth, to come up against some pretty hard realities and some pretty non-pc truths. That being said, I admire MrMortgage for being unapologetic about his beleifs, and I agree with his attitude that you cant take whatever "truths" you like and combine them, and expect them to be spiritual realities. The "other world", if it exists, is not just AS real as this one, it will make this one look pale in comparison. CS Lewis explained how this life seems so unfulfilling and happiness is so fleeting because what we seek cant be found here. Here there are only reflections of what will truly make us happy.

But I also want to say, Mrmortgage, that while I admire your zeal, I dont agree with many of your points from a theological perspective. I can see what you were saying in your last post about male/female household responsiblities.....and although I think there are natural roles, it isnt necessarily black and white, and St. Paul can be interpreted in many different ways in that passage. Secondly, I dont believe that you need to "take Christ as you personal Lord and Saviour" to get to heaven. It definitely helps. But the Catholic faith had a similar teaching to Born Again Fundamentalism in the olden days. Its policy was "No salvation outside of the Church". This is still true to this day, but the Pope back in 1972 wrote an encyclical describing how *anyone* who cooperated with God's grace in their life, to the best of their ability (whether they be Hindu, Muslim, Animalist, etc...) was cooperating with the Church, and Christ, and thus could merit salvation. The existence of a higher plane is black and white, but the beauty of having a personal God, rather than an animal god/stone idol god, is that he can, as a PERSON, understand people's personal situations. This is, in any event, my current grasp of the theology at work.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## MrMortgage

Homeskooled said:


> Dear Mrmole,
> I just wanted to throw something in here. Its not a question of "wanting" religion. If you're looking at it from that point of view, whether your a beleiver or an atheist, then you're missing the point. What you need to be asking is "Is it real?" and "What is the truth?". You cant go wrong with those questions from a scientific standpoint or from my own, as a Roman Catholic. If your starting from a blank slate, you dont really know if you "want" the truth or not. You just have to seek it out. And I know truth about the afterlife and things we cant see is difficult to ascertain to say the least, which is why there is so much divide over it. But eventually, its part of the human condition to want an answer. Someone on here, I dont know if it was Sebastian or Scattered, said that intuition and the truth are not the same thing. Quantum physics is against our intuition, and yet it is true. So there will be aspects of the truth that you probably wont like, just as there are aspects of the "real" world we all hate. But these are the way that things exist, and some of them you cant change. So I would just be prepared, if I was seeking out spiritual truth, to come up against some pretty hard realities and some pretty non-pc truths. That being said, I admire MrMortgage for being unapologetic about his beleifs, and I agree with his attitude that you cant take whatever "truths" you like and combine them, and expect them to be spiritual realities. The "other world", if it exists, is not just AS real as this one, it will make this one look pale in comparison. CS Lewis explained how this life seems so unfulfilling and happiness is so fleeting because what we seek cant be found here. Here there are only reflections of what will truly make us happy.
> 
> But I also want to say, Mrmortgage, that while I admire your zeal, I dont agree with many of your points from a theological perspective. I can see what you were saying in your last post about male/female household responsiblities.....and although I think there are natural roles, it isnt necessarily black and white, and St. Paul can be interpreted in many different ways in that passage. Secondly, I dont believe that you need to "take Christ as you personal Lord and Saviour" to get to heaven. It definitely helps. But the Catholic faith had a similar teaching to Born Again Fundamentalism in the olden days. Its policy was "No salvation outside of the Church". This is still true to this day, but the Pope back in 1972 wrote an encyclical describing how *anyone* who cooperated with God's grace in their life, to the best of their ability (whether they be Hindu, Muslim, Animalist, etc...) was cooperating with the Church, and Christ, and thus could merit salvation. The existence of a higher plane is black and white, but the beauty of having a personal God, rather than an animal god/stone idol god, is that he can, as a PERSON, understand people's personal situations. This is, in any event, my current grasp of the theology at work.
> 
> Peace
> Homeskooled


Nice points Homeskooled! I will say one thing, The church (christian/catholic) has done one thing for sure and that is "drop the ball". Someone has to pick it up.


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## gizmo

This is for Homeschooled.The bible says that the only way to God is through Jesus.So either you believe the bible or you don't, regardless of what the pope says.I am sorry if this offends you, but the pope is just a person, like you and me.


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## MrMortgage

gizmo said:


> This is for Homeschooled.The bible says that the only way to God is through Jesus.So either you believe the bible or you don't, regardless of what the pope says.I am sorry if this offends you, but the pope is just a person, like you and me.


NICE GIZMO!!! NAILED IT! Wow, to be honest, if any huge organized religion is designed to control the masses its the catholic church.

IT SEEMS EVERYTIME A CHURCH GETS HUGE, CATHOLIC OR CHRISTIAN, THEY LOSE THEIR BALLS TO SPEAK THE TRUTH. THEY WANT TO TRY AND PLEASE EVERYONE, AND THIS IS WRONG MAN.

THE WORD OF GOD IS OFFENSIVE AND IT IS A TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT TYPE OF THING. YOU CANT SIT THERE AND MOLD GOD THE WAY YOU WANT HIM TO BE, ITS THE OTHER WAY AROUND, HE MOLDS US TO WHAT HE WANT US TO BE.

THE BIBLE SAYS, IN GENERAL A QUARTER OF THE PEOPLE ARE GOING. THE STORY IS IN MARK 4: 1-20


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## MrMortgage

boohoo said:


> And look at this naughty boy who insists his own religion is the truth.
> 
> Mr Mortgage dear, my religion is one of the most socially unaccepted in my country, unlike Christianity which seems to gain status. I'm a New Age Spiritualist incase you're wondering. I've put up with a lot of silly* due to my beliefs - yet I don't discuss my religion or argue it. I was brought up not to discuss religion, or politics, not that I know anything about politics. And I can see why people are advised against going on about religion. It causes a divide. I have much respect for others, even if they believe in God. But I don't have as much respect for those who try to force their own religion onto others.
> Not that anyone gives a flower* about what I think, but you see what I mean.
> Wow, I'm just purrrrfect!!! Yeah baby yeah


I have respect for them, but think about it this way, Its funny, the people that dont study the bible have the most shit to talk about the bible, and the people that do just keep their mouths shut.


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## MrMortgage

1 Corinthians 14

34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.

35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

36 Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?

37 If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.

38 If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.

How many other ways can you take this?


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## MrMortgage

To me this is not offensive. But women these days think that they have something to prove, to make themselves equal.

Dude where is all this pride coming from, relax, no body is putting you down, but putting you in your place. There is a difference. Everybody plays there own roles, and I could not play the part of a women in alot of things in life because I'm not able to, women are so much better at it. We all have are place, the problem lies in people wanting to be there own boss, and the sooner you find out your not your own and your Gods you will be happier.

HAS ANYONE SEEN THAT MOVIE "ALONG CAME POLLY"

"BE LIKE THE HIPPO"

"THE HIPPO WANTED TO BE LIKE THE ZEBRA, SO HE PUT A STRIPE ON HIS SKIN, BUT EVERYONE KNEW HE WAS A HIPPO, AS SOON AS HE STOPPED BEING SOMETHING HE'S NOT AND JUST LET HIM SELF BE THE HIPPO THAT HE WAS HE WAS MORE HAPPY IN LIFE. HAPPY IN LIFE BEING A HIPPO"


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## sleepingbeauty

MrMortgage said:


> Its funny, the people that dont study the bible have the most silly* to talk about the bible, and the people that do just keep their mouths shut.


oh riiiiiiiiight. so whens the day mr'CAPSLOCK'mortgage stops flapping his gums?

:roll:

:lol:

:roll:


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## MrMortgage

sleepingbeauty said:


> MrMortgage said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its funny, the people that dont study the bible have the most silly* to talk about the bible, and the people that do just keep their mouths shut.
> 
> 
> 
> oh riiiiiiiiight. so whens the day mr'CAPSLOCK'mortgage stops flapping his gums?
> 
> :roll:
> 
> :lol:
> 
> :roll:
Click to expand...

 8)


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## ret

"I'm cured baby! Thank you Jesus! I owe it all to God."

"Our remedies oft in ourselves do lie,
Which we ascribe to heaven"


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## MrMortgage

At the opening of this play, the main figures are pondering the deaths of two people who were important in their lives. Bertram has lost his father; Helena has lost hers. Helena is in love with Bertram and bemoans the various disruptions to their lives. The death of Bertram's father has called him away to Paris to serve the ailing king of France. Helena is a not of the correct social pedigree for Bertram, the son of a Count, and at the end of this scene, she exchanges sexually explicit words with Parolles, a friend and follower of Bertram. With her second soliloquy, quoted in part here, she says she will take matters into her own hands now, and pursue her love of Bertram, against all odds. This rejection of fate echoes the famous lines in Julius Caesar-"The fault?.is not in our stars,?..But in ourselves?".

Dont try to out think me boy. LOL


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## widescreened

i think if you read every single word of the bible and apply them literally,we would all have executed each other by next thursday.you are not supposed to eat shellfish,you are put to death for swearing etc etc.do you see my point about being careful of accepting things in the bible as being the absolute truth.im not on a spite mission,or out to get anyone,just to put the point across that you can be a good person and know the difference between right and wrong as a humanist.there are some wonderful things written in the bible.the book of psalms is very inspiring.whats wrong with being careful?the bible was edited.it wasent discovered lying in the desert in its present form.why accept its organization as absolute truth?men edited it then,whats wrong with doing your own selection today?what about the gospels that were left out because it didnt fit in with what the spin doctors wanted the public to know?what about human fallibility in writing the bible?its too big an ask for me to sit on my hands and say nothing when all the above issues are unanswered.


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## rainboteers

MrMortgage said:


> To me this is not offensive. But women these days think that they have something to prove, to make themselves equal.
> 
> Dude where is all this pride coming from, relax, no body is putting you down, but putting you in your place. There is a difference.


 :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: holy shit... do words even exist. i agree with widescreened and you must understand that during the time period when the bible was written, women were treated worse than slaves. of course it would say that stuff. women have had to fight just to be treated DECENTLY in the the past. it was a sad sad situation. maybe it makes you feel better about yourself that women were treated so badly in the bible, due to your past, but i find this disgusting.


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## rainboteers

yeah yeah what i wrote was damn mean, but im not apologizing. its people with this mindset that end up treating others very badly and then justifying it with the bible, and dont give me that bull that you are just the innocent messanger.

if i recall correctly that stuff about women being quiet, submissive, and asking their husbands was a letter written by one i think paul about how HE thought the church should be. if it was paul he didnt even SEE jesus in the flesh. JESUS didnt write or say it. *man* wrote the flucking bible.


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## MrMortgage

rainboteers said:


> yeah yeah what i wrote was damn mean, but im not apologizing. its people with this mindset that end up treating others very badly and then justifying it with the bible, and dont give me that bull that you are just the innocent messanger.
> 
> if i recall correctly that stuff about women being quiet, submissive, and asking their husbands was a letter written by one i think paul about how HE thought the church should be. if it was paul he didnt even SEE jesus in the flesh. JESUS didnt write or say it. *man* wrote the flucking bible.


Here's a perfect example. Taking what I say totally out of context. Trying to bring up past issues in someones life to to justify what they are saying.

:wink:


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## rainboteers

nvm... not worth it.


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## MrMortgage

rainboteers said:


> nvm... not worth it.


Ya, nevermind rain, dont get your panties in a twist. :wink:


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## Homeskooled

Dear Mrmortgage, 
You have to learn to contextualize your studies of the Bible. For instance, truth doesnt change. Customs do. Liturgy is just the application of spiritual truth, and it can and will change as time goes on. You cant worship as the apostles did, simply becuase we dont know quite how they worshipped. At the time, it wasnt proper for a woman to speak in Church. You may also note that Paul quoted the "Law". This was the Torah, the Old Covenant, which was replaced. What St. Paul says about liturgy is and was up for debate. For instance, St. Peter and St. Paul disagreed on whether the Old Law should still be applied. Can you tell me what they were disagreeing on?

And anything based on the old law is now null and void - can you tell me under what circumstances this was revealed? It has something to do with food....

If it wasnt proper at the time for a woman to speak in Church, fine. But what St. Paul says was disagreed with by other apostles and anything based on the Old Law seems to have been made null and void by the subsequent vision over........well, your gonna have to look it up. But lets say for argument's sake, that St. Paul's words are inflexible. I beleive he was the one to say that all of the appearances of the Law (such as a woman keeping her mouth shut) were like a cymbal clanging if they "had not love." The essence of the passage is respect for god. Without that, silence means nothing. In the Eastern churches, kneeling in church is an insult. People bow. Why is that? Because in the East, people look at kneeling for Christ to be mocking him, just as the soldiers mocked him on their knees when they placed a crown of thorns on his head. Ways to show respect will always change, as will ways we worship.

Now the divide between Liturgical Law and Dogma (which all Christians hold to some extent) is that the one is a Church law and is changeable (made by man), the other is Divine Truth ( a fact that cant be changed). For instance , Dogma - Christ is both God and Man. Liturgical law - Christ is to be worshipped on Sundays. Lets try another. Dogma - Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory are the three places which exist after death. 
Liturgical Law - To get to Heaven, go to Church on Sundays (among other things). Liturgical law is changing- it shows us how to implent what is supposed to be in our hearts all along. Dogma is the divine reality, the divine "fact" on which the implementation is based.

Lastly, your Biblical interpretations also reflect the Bibles you read. For instance, any version based on King James will be lacking Maccabees, which gives references King james disagreed with. Maccabees was found in the pre 70 AD Torah. Try reading the Vulgate, or the Douay-Rheims. NIV is even worse than the King James. Its a more "hip", dumbed down translation.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## MrMortgage

Heres the problem, as soon as I say something that goes against the grain, I get attacked. Many of you are taking my words way out of order. The point to all this is, we all have are own roles, and whenever any race, gender, or person for that matter are put in a certain place, they might not find desireable they feel bad and angry.

What I like to do is bring out scriptures in the bible that are never taught, becuase most churches run away from them. Why do they run away? Well, a perfect example is in these two topics we been going around for the past week. It causes people to disagree.

The problem with what I'm talking about is not the topic, but the history that follows the topic, the majority of cults and freaky things like that speak of things that I speak of, so I am automatically in that catagory and cast out in to the see of rejection.

It wont matter how I bring the information. In this case, like I said before, I'm just the messanger, if the bible was all about love and peace you would see me typing nothing but love and peace. But it isnt all about that, in fact, did you know that Jesus spoke more about hell in the bible then he did about heaven, did you know that there are more curses in the bible then there are blessings.

Yet all everyone ever wants to talk about is the blessings. Funny :roll:

I'm comfortable with my past, and I'll tell you guys something, I'm not proud of it, but for some reason I'm here, and I'm in church all the time studying the bible. I dont try to walk around like my shit dont stink, because I'll tell you what, it probably stinks worst then most of yours.


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## MrMortgage

Homeskooled said:


> Dear Mrmortgage,
> You have to learn to contextualize your studies of the Bible. For instance, truth doesnt change. Customs do. Liturgy is just the application of spiritual truth, and it can and will change as time goes on. You cant worship as the apostles did, simply becuase we dont know quite how they worshipped. At the time, it wasnt proper for a woman to speak in Church. You may also note that Paul quoted the "Law". This was the Torah, the Old Covenant, which was replaced. What St. Paul says about liturgy is and was up for debate. For instance, St. Peter and St. Paul disagreed on whether the Old Law should still be applied. Can you tell me what they were disagreeing on?
> 
> And anything based on the old law is now null and void - can you tell me under what circumstances this was revealed? It has something to do with food....
> 
> If it wasnt proper at the time for a woman to speak in Church, fine. But what St. Paul says was disagreed with by other apostles and anything based on the Old Law seems to have been made null and void by the subsequent vision over........well, your gonna have to look it up. But lets say for argument's sake, that St. Paul's words are inflexible. I beleive he was the one to say that all of the appearances of the Law (such as a woman keeping her mouth shut) were like a cymbal clanging if they "had not love." The essence of the passage is respect for god. Without that, silence means nothing. In the Eastern churches, kneeling in church is an insult. People bow. Why is that? Because in the East, people look at kneeling for Christ to be mocking him, just as the soldiers mocked him on their knees when they placed a crown of thorns on his head. Ways to show respect will always change, as will ways we worship.
> 
> Now the divide between Liturgical Law and Dogma (which all Christians hold to some extent) is that the one is a Church law and is changeable (made by man), the other is Divine Truth ( a fact that cant be changed). For instance , Dogma - Christ is both God and Man. Liturgical law - Christ is to be worshipped on Sundays. Lets try another. Dogma - Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory are the three places which exist after death.
> Liturgical Law - To get to Heaven, go to Church on Sundays (among other things). Liturgical law is changing- it shows us how to implent what is supposed to be in our hearts all along. Dogma is the divine reality, the divine "fact" on which the implementation is based.
> 
> Lastly, your Biblical interpretations also reflect the Bibles you read. For instance, any version based on King James will be lacking Maccabees, which gives references King james disagreed with. Maccabees was found in the pre 70 AD Torah. Try reading the Vulgate, or the Douay-Rheims. NIV is even worse than the King James. Its a more "hip", dumbed down translation.
> 
> Peace
> Homeskooled


I respect you a lot homeskooled! I can tell you know a lot about the word, and your not just talking out of your ass, the fact that youre talking about the Maccabees tells me a lot. The church I go to reads out of the Maccabees sometimes because theres are a lot of history in there that connects things together and helps you understand the bible better.

Would it suprise you that I've only been in church for 10 months? The church I go to gets down man, and are motto is "no religious nonsense here"

The reason i'm learning so fast is because of the Church I go to and I thank God for that all the time. There is only 2 ways to get knowledge that fast, God or satan, and I choose believe its God.

I'll tell you something Homeskooled, I come out raw when I should be feeding some of these people "milk" because they cant take the meat and patatoes I throw at them, I should hold my tounge sometimes, but I'm only human, and I get fed up with the way the word of God has been changed to please the world.

It just makes me sick, to be talking about love, love, peace peace, when knowing I'm only telling half the story.

You know for a fact that, if I came out talking about how loving God is, and how women are better then men (FOR THE RECORD I NEVER SAID MEN ARE BETTER THEN WOMEN, BUT FOR SOME REASON THAT'S HOW SOME OF YOU TOOK IT) I would of got nothing but a pat on the back from all of you, and I dont want a pat on the back from any of you, I want it from God.


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## sleepingbeauty

yep mortgage. 10 months and you already know more about the 'word' then i do. screw the fact that i went to christian school, church on sunday, thursday night youth group, wednesday night bible study, and 8TH period bible class where all we did was memorize scripture. ohhhhh and lets not forget! 4 years of intellicunt design 'science' class. :wink:

your ten months completely eclipses my 17 years of evangelical exile no doubt about that! :roll:


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## MrMortgage

sleepingbeauty said:


> yep mortgage. 10 months and you already know more about the 'word' then i do. screw the fact that i went to christian school, church on sunday, thursday night youth group, wednesday night bible study, and 8TH period bible class where all we did was memorize scripture. ohhhhh and lets not forget! 4 years of intellicunt design 'science' class. :wink:
> 
> your ten months completely eclipses my 17 years of evangelical exile no doubt about that! :roll:


Do you know how many people have been in church for 20 years? I have talked to pastors of churches, and I showed them my understandings, They tried to argue, I showed them the scriptures, and they couldnt say much LOL.

I'll tell you what, how come you are not a serious Christian, or Catholic then? All that great knowledge you've learned should have you praising the Lord right?

Maybe someone wasnt taught right, and needs to drop all that pride and get back in the word and not blame God for things that didnt go your way. :roll:


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## dalailama15

Some of us used to think that to be ?Christian,? in behavior, was to be compassionate, to treat others as one would like to be treated, to be kind, decent and loving. We were apparently wrong. God is not very nice. Just a few examples:

HE KILLED A MAN WHO REFUSED TO IMPREGNATE HIS WIDOWED SISTER-IN-LAW: Gen. 38:8-10 says, "Then Judah said to Onan, 'Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother.' But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his seed on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked in the Lord's sight; so he put him to death also."

HE DEMANDED 16,000 VIRGINS BE GIVEN TO SOLDIERS AS WAR PLUNDER AND 32 BE SET ASIDE FOR HIMSELF: Num. 31:31-40 says, "Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the Lord commanded Moses. The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 72,000 cattle, 61,000 donkeys and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.... And the half, the portion of those who had gone out to war, was....16,000 people, of which the tribute for the Lord was 32."

HE DEGRADES HANDICAPPED PEOPLE: In Lev. 21:16-23 God said to Moses, "Say to Aaron: 'For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; no man with a crippled foot or hand, or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the Lord by fire. He has a defect.... because of this defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary...." (Lev. 21:16:23).

HE SUPPORTS HUMAN SACRIFICE: Ex. 22:29-30 says, "Do not hold back offerings from your granaries or your vats. You must give me the firstborn of your sons. Do the same with your cattle and your sheep. Let them stay with their mothers for 7 days, but give them to me on the 8th day." And Lev. 27:28-29 says, "Nothing that a man owns and devotes to the Lord--whether man or animal or family land--may be sold or redeemed; everything so devoted is most holy to the Lord. No person devoted to destruction may be ransomed; he must be put to death." He also permitted human sacrifice according to Ezek. 20:26, which says, "I let them become defiled through their gifts--the sacrifice of every firstborn--that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the Lord."

HE ORDERS CANNIBALISM: Lev. 26:29 says, "Ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughter shall ye eat." Jer. 19:9 says, "I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another's flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives." Ezek. 5:10 says, "In your midst fathers will eat their children, and children will eat their fathers. I will inflict punishment on you and will scatter all your survivors to the winds." Isaiah 49:26 says, "I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh; they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine...."

HE SPREADS DUNG ON FACES: "Behold I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts...." (Mal. 2:3).

When the creator of the universe spreads dung on your face. . . well, it can?t get much worse than that.

(Quotes from Biblical Errancy: http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/ )


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## MrMortgage

dalailama15 said:


> Some of us used to think that to be ?Christian,? in behavior, was to be compassionate, to treat others as one would like to be treated, to be kind, decent and loving. We were apparently wrong. God is not very nice. Just a few examples:
> 
> HE KILLED A MAN WHO REFUSED TO IMPREGNATE HIS WIDOWED SISTER-IN-LAW: Gen. 38:8-10 says, "Then Judah said to Onan, 'Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother.' But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his seed on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked in the Lord's sight; so he put him to death also."
> 
> HE DEMANDED 16,000 VIRGINS BE GIVEN TO SOLDIERS AS WAR PLUNDER AND 32 BE SET ASIDE FOR HIMSELF: Num. 31:31-40 says, "Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the Lord commanded Moses. The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 72,000 cattle, 61,000 donkeys and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.... And the half, the portion of those who had gone out to war, was....16,000 people, of which the tribute for the Lord was 32."
> 
> HE DEGRADES HANDICAPPED PEOPLE: In Lev. 21:16-23 God said to Moses, "Say to Aaron: 'For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; no man with a crippled foot or hand, or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the Lord by fire. He has a defect.... because of this defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary...." (Lev. 21:16:23).
> 
> HE SUPPORTS HUMAN SACRIFICE: Ex. 22:29-30 says, "Do not hold back offerings from your granaries or your vats. You must give me the firstborn of your sons. Do the same with your cattle and your sheep. Let them stay with their mothers for 7 days, but give them to me on the 8th day." And Lev. 27:28-29 says, "Nothing that a man owns and devotes to the Lord--whether man or animal or family land--may be sold or redeemed; everything so devoted is most holy to the Lord. No person devoted to destruction may be ransomed; he must be put to death." He also permitted human sacrifice according to Ezek. 20:26, which says, "I let them become defiled through their gifts--the sacrifice of every firstborn--that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the Lord."
> 
> HE ORDERS CANNIBALISM: Lev. 26:29 says, "Ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughter shall ye eat." Jer. 19:9 says, "I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another's flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives." Ezek. 5:10 says, "In your midst fathers will eat their children, and children will eat their fathers. I will inflict punishment on you and will scatter all your survivors to the winds." Isaiah 49:26 says, "I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh; they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine...."
> 
> HE SPREADS DUNG ON FACES: "Behold I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts...." (Mal. 2:3).
> 
> When the creator of the universe spreads dung on your face. . . well, it can?t get much worse than that.
> 
> (From Biblical Errancy: http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/ )


I love this guy!!! I understand what your saying is not in favor of the Christian religion, but God did these things to certain people in the bible because they didnt do as they were told.

Remember, God didnt get pissed just to get pissed, he always had reasons. But he does have mercy.

To be loved and feared is hard to do, and God has accomplished that.


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## sleepingbeauty

well mortgage, ill tell you why i turned away from jesus! because i finally found the one true god, and i aint goin back sucka!!!










i know you wont even begin to understand my reasons for turning away from organized christianity, because its extremely complicated and ive noticed your attention span is limited and the explination is really long, but i will try to sum it up for you as best i can.

youre wasting your time mortgage. and your life. you dont need a spaghetti monster, or a book written by schisophrenics to tell you right from wrong. give yourself some f#cking credit man!


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## peacedove

Since everyone here seems so knowledgable about the Bible...

How can God punish us for being sinners when he's the one who made us sinners?

And please don't say we have free will... cuz I never asked to be here in the first place.

I don't get it. I've studied the Bible in youth groups and bible studies... I still don't get it. I don't know as much as some of you though... maybe I had bad teachers. Maybe I'm just evil.

What's up with all the contradictions in the bible?

Is God loving or hateful? Seems like Jesus was loving... I guess the rest of the trinity is hate. So I guess I'll just follow Jesus then, cuz I don't like mean people. Haha. Just kidding. I'm just lost and seems I always will be.


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## Guest

peacedove, what about the origins of the bible? It all started when people in absolute power voted amongst themselves for a common rule book they could all refer to and the Bible ( meaning book) became the accepted one.
There are other and much better (unadulterated) manuscripts about the same thing. They are logical and rational, and though written with some figurative wording, still much more accessable than the current bible, and frankly, the ones I've read make me feel good, unlike the bible which gets me shaking my head in disgust and disbelief. Most people in churches now are blind and they're frantically leading other blind people. They all refer to the bible as the word - sure, but it's the word VOTED in by a group of religious leaders, all human, all fallible and likely, all power-hungry. (Why would they be any different than most of history's leaders?)
What about the Essene Gospel of Peace, translated directly from the original aramaic, the langage Jesus was supposed to have spoken, only about 80 years ago? The scroll was one of many untranslated scrolls housed in the Vatican Library and translated by a young Catholic student, who was given the honour of using the Vatican library for about a year.
After he did the translation, he was so inspired by its words and message, (just as he had been deeply moved by St Francis of Assisi, a truly kind, gentle, selfless man) that he spent most of the rest of his life trying to establish a commune to carry out the dictates of the Essene Gospel of Peace. 
I have most the volumes of the Essene Gospel of Peace and I love them. My bible is only used for reference, and very rarely at that. "The word of God"? - not to me, God would never talk such convoluted crap and would never do the things he is purported to do in the bible. Men wrote the bible, not God, and those men didn't understand God any better than most people do these days.
Anyone truly interested in saving their soul or living a decent life would take the time to read and consider other philosophies and religions. They wouldn't scream frantically like B actors in a bad Hollywood film and spend all their energy protecting a book written by men only as ill-informed as themselves.
Sorry if this offends anyone, this is (part of) my opinion.


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## MrMortgage

peacedove said:


> Since everyone here seems so knowledgable about the Bible...
> 
> How can God punish us for being sinners when he's the one who made us sinners?
> 
> And please don't say we have free will... cuz I never asked to be here in the first place.
> 
> I don't get it. I've studied the Bible in youth groups and bible studies... I still don't get it. I don't know as much as some of you though... maybe I had bad teachers. Maybe I'm just evil.
> 
> What's up with all the contradictions in the bible?
> 
> Is God loving or hateful? Seems like Jesus was loving... I guess the rest of the trinity is hate. So I guess I'll just follow Jesus then, cuz I don't like mean people. Haha. Just kidding. I'm just lost and seems I always will be.


Jesus loves, but he gets pissed to, for example, when he went into the temple and kicked over the money changers tables for making money off the lord. He called people names in the bible. Stuff like that.

That's a good question you asked about being here, and why, because you didnt ask to be born. Well you dont know if you didnt ask to be born, what if God was going to throw you in hell for something bad you did to him and you said "oh God put me on earth with no memory of this conversation and heaven and I will prove to my heart is good!" And he said okay and put you on earth for a test. You dont know this.

I think God made us for his pleasure, I think he needed to feel like a God so he made us, maybe he was lonley. Anyway, point is, that is the way it is, and you cant change it. When in Rome do as the Romans!


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## MrMortgage

Oh, and so you know, the bible does not contradict itself. People read one scripture and then they read another and find that in one it said it was bad to do this thing, but in another it said it was okay. People didnt bother to read the whole chapter or book or bible to find why it was okay for some to do this and some not to.

The bible is simple, man has made it difficult.


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## sleepingbeauty

MrMortgage said:


> That's a good question you asked about being here, and why, because you didnt ask to be born. Well you dont know if you didnt ask to be born, what if God was going to throw you in hell for something bad you did to him and you said "oh God put me on earth with no memory of this conversation and heaven and I will prove to my heart is good!" And he said okay and put you on earth for a test. You dont know this.


you see!!!!! thats why i say, god is a big pasta pirate floating on 2 inflatable meaty balls. and whos to say im wrong? according to you mr'10monthsbornagainsothatmakesmeabibleexpert'mortgage, YOU JUST DONT KNOW. it could be anything ANYTHING!

so please for the love of all that is TRUE and REAL and IMPORTANT because it is TRUE and REAL and you KNOW exists so that makes it all the more HOLY and WORTHY of your undying love and devotion and protection, why do you put so much of your time and self into made-up make-believe? i think its a very valid question and please dont give me any more land of make-believe answers. give me something solid to hold onto. something FACTUAL and not horseshit.

because honestly, whatever any of us here, mods or not, believe, if its not based in actual fact, then by definition its made up. the definition of made up is 'make believe' and the more crude definition of make believe is horseshit. edit me and lace me with confection all you want. im just here calling a spade a spade. and if what i say is so offensive to the christian legion, then what about all the crud mortgage spews about women? why does he continue to get away with that?? ohhh.. because its in the bible right? well, we who believe in REALITY know the bible for what it is and that is horseshit and if the christian legion doesnt want to hear fact based opinion then why should we have to endure their baloney??

honestly i really want to know.


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## MrMortgage

sleepingbeauty said:


> MrMortgage said:
> 
> 
> 
> and if what i say is so offensive to the christian legion, then what about all the crud mortgage spews about women? why does he continue to get away with that?? ohhh.. because its in the bible right?
Click to expand...

Oh god, I dont get away with it, I get attacked by you, agentcooper, beachgirl, and julie on a regular basis. I never seen anyone put your views down, maybe accept me, but that's about it.

Stop being mad at the world.

And my views on women are not my own, it is what the bible says. I have no place to change the bible around so that I'm accepted by everyone. If the bible said men submit to your wives and sit down in church and listen to the women preach the word of God, I would. And I would be preaching it the same way I preach now.

Nobody has the right to change a religion to make it fit their needs. If you dont believe in what it stands for then you dont have to listen or read the bible and go to church.

Everyone needs to stop changing the bible and Gods word so that they will feel more comfortable with it. It is what it is, and it really is on a take it for leave it basis.

What did Jesus say, he said "my sheep know my voice" and if people dont accept the word of God Jesus tells us to "shake the dust off our sandles and keep walking".


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## sleepingbeauty

> so please for the love of all that is TRUE and REAL and IMPORTANT because it is TRUE and REAL and you KNOW exists so that makes it all the more HOLY and WORTHY of your undying love and devotion and protection, why do you put so much of your time and self into made-up make-believe?


you still havent answered my question. why are you skirting the issue homez?


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## agentcooper

MrMortgage said:


> Oh god, I dont get away with it, I get attacked by you, agentcooper, beachgirl, and julie on a regular basis. I never seen anyone put your views down, maybe accept me, but that's about it.


um...i don't think i've ever attacked you *personally*. i have definately attacked your view points on certain issues but i believe that is different. maybe you've taken some of the things i've said as personal attacks?...but if so, you need to be a little less sensitive.


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## Homeskooled

Yes, actually Mrmortgage, there is a difference, and I think agentcooper has been very even-handed with you. Honestly, if I didnt know better, I'd think she likes you....her being one of your groupies and all. :wink: :roll: (I'm really gonna get it now)

Peace
Homeskooled


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## agentcooper

Homeskooled said:


> Yes, actually Mrmortgage, there is a difference, and I think agentcooper has been very even-handed with you. Honestly, if I didnt know better, I'd think she likes you....her being one of your groupies and all. :wink: :roll: (I'm really gonna get it now)
> 
> Peace
> Homeskooled


why i OUGHTA!!! (i'm shaking my fist at you, homeskooled):wink: groupie, never...but i do think mr.mortgage is generally a good natured guy...his intentions are good, he just needs to learn how to even his opinions out.


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## Homeskooled

Oh no you DIIDNNNT! (I'm doing the right-left head shake). There'll be no fist-shaking at any of the moderators, young lady. :wink: Seriously, I agree with your comment there. Oh, and Sleepy, *anytime* you insult *anyone's* *anything* using words not used in polite conversation *in bold print* *(and depending on its usage, even if it isnt) it will be moderated. That includes the Koran, Buddha, Gaia, Spiderman, John Lennon, etc....I'm all for healthy debate, and honestly, even unhealthy debate, since as Coop called it, they're "juicy", get lots of readers, and I know you love them too. But keep your comments within reasonable limits. If mortgage makes the same comment about ladies, I'll jump on it sooner than I'd edit anything religious. Everyone gets lots of latitude in these threads, and I'm not for changing that anytime soon.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## MrMortgage

agentcooper said:


> MrMortgage said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh god, I dont get away with it, I get attacked by you, agentcooper, beachgirl, and julie on a regular basis. I never seen anyone put your views down, maybe accept me, but that's about it.
> 
> 
> 
> um...i don't think i've ever attacked you *personally*. i have definately attacked your view points on certain issues but i believe that is different. maybe you've taken some of the things i've said as personal attacks?...but if so, you need to be a little less sensitive.
Click to expand...

Oh to be honest with you agent your comments dont bother me at all, neither does everyone elses. I didnt get hurt, I was just using examples so that sleeping beauty would stop thinking everyone hates her.

I know deep down inside you have a big crush on me, but we will keep that between you and me. :wink: LOL just kidding, dont "attack me personally" LOL jk :lol:


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