# DOPAMINE



## rob35235

As you may know, there is a theory that we high have dopamine levels. How can we lower it significanlty without drugs, or without any weird herbs (which are just as frightening to ingest)


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## flat

I thought it was low dopamine levels. Can you explain how high dopamine might cause dp?


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## PositiveThinking!

flat said:


> I thought it was low dopamine levels. Can you explain how high dopamine might cause dp?


Same o.0


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## guest1234

It's low dopamine levels.

The fight or flight reaction causes a big peak in adrenaline and a drop in dopamine which I think is partially responsible for the DP response. 
What usually happens when you get a shock or a scare is that you get that 'safe' feeling afterwards in your chest when you know everything is ok. This safe feeling is actually physiological as well and is what triggers adrenaline and dopamine to go back to normal levels.

One of my theories with DP is that because we get caught up in the fear of how we feel, we don't get the safe feeling and so dopamine remains low.

It's only when you can lose the fear and stop worrying that you start to get back towards that safe feeling.

This is all my own speculation though so not sure how accurate it is.

Tyrosine and L-DOPA are precursors to dopamine so taking supplements of these might help. Food sources tyrosine include almonds, avocados, bananas, dairy products, lima beans, pumpkin seeds, and sesame seeds.

Foods that are rich in antioxidants such as fruits and vegetables may help protect dopamine-using neurons from free radical damage. I would recommend supplementing with vitamins C, vitamin E, and other antioxidants.


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## comfortably numb

Im not sure about the whole dopamine hypothosis on dp/dr as i havent read enough about it to make a opinion really. I have noticed that dopaminic drugs such as dextroamphetamine and cocaine (good cocaine) take my anxiety away though. I don't get dp/dr anymore atleast not in the true sense. I do feel unreal sometimes but this is due to bipolar disorder which is a complete bitch to treat


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## rob35235

Oh, no no no..it definitely is *high* dopamine... many or most anti psychotics *lower* your dopamine levels. Cannabis and exercise, for example, both raise your dopamine level.


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## voidvoid

I´m confused. Although this thread reminded me that I have some avocadoes in the fridge that I need to eat. Everybody wins.


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## nabber

Yeah, i wish i could figure this one out. I tried an anti psychotic but it knocked me out so I didn't give it much of a chance. Then I read up on dopamine and asked my doctor and he thought it was a good idea to try mirapex (a non-ergoline dopamine agonist).. I didn't give this one much of a chance either, i'm kind of worried about the side effects, but I might try it again. I take adderall "which is thought to work by increasing the amount of dopamine and norepinephrine in the brain" and it's helped me a lot, i've been on 20mg a day for quite a few months and it's still just as potent as day one...

I think I'll pick up my script for mirapex and try it again for atleast a month and let everyone know how I feel..


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## Absentis

I'm sorry if anyone has been mislead or misinformed due to this post. I wish I was a moderator so I could close threads filled with factually incorrect information, like this one. This forum is slowly becoming a cesspool of ignorance, and without knowledgeable moderators to steer its path it's doomed to become the empty shell of a once useful community. (Dreamer, if only we could clone you things wouldn't be so bad.)



rob35235 said:


> Oh, no no no..it definitely is *high* dopamine... many or most anti psychotics *lower* your dopamine levels. Cannabis and exercise, for example, both raise your dopamine level.


Are you serious? I have the feeling that you're trolling this forum because I find it hard to believe that you are presenting this as a legitimate argument.

I've been trying to come up with a metaphor that will display the kind of outlandish statement that is being made about the brain in a readily understandable fashion. Let's substitute car for brain, and oil for dopamine. Let's say there is a "check oil" error message that is emitted from the dashboard of this car. The equivalent to rob35235's "lower dopamine" is the same approach as troubleshooting the problem with the car's oil by draining the oil from the car. "What? You mean without even checking the car for a leak, looking at the engine, asking if we're using the wrong kind of oil, or taking it into a dealership?" "Nah Dude, the problem is with the oil, so if we take it out we'll be fine." I shouldn't need to say this, but I'll say it anyway: You need oil to run a car.

Now if you're thinking to yourself that this analogy makes no sense, then you know what it is like for me to read posts like this one.


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## guest1234

rob35235 said:


> Oh, no no no..it definitely is *high* dopamine... many or most anti psychotics *lower* your dopamine levels. Cannabis and exercise, for example, both raise your dopamine level.


But DP isn't psychosis. So that is irrelevant. If that were the case then antipsychotics would get rid of it. They don't. And cannabis might raise it while you're on it but that will result in base level depletion over time. Plus there are many conflicting theories on whether cannabis use does actually raise dopamine or not (good article here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19539765 )
Besides it is NEVER going to be as simple as 'well X causes Y and Y causes Z therefore X must cause Z' with anything to do with neurotransmitters, receptors and causal effect.

Trust me, I have researched this to the ends of the earth and it's much more likely low dopamine with DP.

Easiest way to illustrate is to give some examples of symptoms of low dopamine levels:

Dopamine depletion is associated with:

· anhedonia (inability to feel pleasure)

· the inability to feel love and sense attachment to another

· a lack of remorse about actions

· distractibility

Sound familiar?


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## Guest

I have been under the impression that Cannabis/THC triggers a release of what dopamine (or serotonin) that you have stored already. Not that it produces more of these...but depletes the system of what was there. That's why, (I've always thought), you either gain tolerance to certain drugs, *or they burn you out.*


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## voidvoid

A psychiatrist I´ve spoken to actually wants me to take this drug for dp/dr Flupentixol also called Depixol and Fluanxol. It is a *typical* first generation anti-psychotic with some supposed antidepressive traits. When he first mentioned this I could not believe what I was hearing. I mean, most people know that antipsychotics lower dopamine and generally lower frontal lobe activity, cognition and perception etc. Any thoughts on this? Am I wrong? I am sure if I took this shit I would go crazy.


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## Surfingisfun001

Why the hell can't doctors check our dopamine, cortisol, etc. levels and figure out what the fuck is wrong with us. Instead it seems like it's... "here try methodithydonticorfluentprozacaside" ! cheers!


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## voidvoid

surfingisfun001 said:


> Why the hell can't doctors check our dopamine, cortisol, etc. levels and figure out what the fuck is wrong with us. Instead it seems like it's... "here try methodithydonticorfluentprozacaside" ! cheers!


Word. I´ll be damned if I´m gonna have to buy one of those testkits for myself that the doctors should already have.


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## guest1234

ThoughtOnFire said:


> I have been under the impression that Cannabis/THC triggers a release of what dopamine (or serotonin) that you have stored already. Not that it produces more of these...but depletes the system of what was there. That's why, (I've always thought), you either gain tolerance to certain drugs, *or they burn you out.*


That's correct - you end up depleted hence low levels. It's like when you do a lot of E/Mdma/coke you end up with depleted serotonin levels because the drug causes increased release of them. Stress also depletes dopamine so it makes a lot of sense that people on here with DP have it because of either drugs or some excess of stress at some point in their lives, or both.

At the end of the day I am no authority on the subject but having a biology degree and nutrition advice certificate and general high interest in the human body made me go down this route of investigation pretty much immediately I got this thing.

Now I am recovered I still retain that interest and remain convinced that low dopamine contributes to DP. In fact I remember a while back discussing this with tommygunz on his thread because he had put that it was high dopamine and then later revised it to low dopamine having researched more thoroughly.


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## comfortably numb

Inzom said:


> A psychiatrist I´ve spoken to actually wants me to take this drug for dp/dr Flupentixol also called Depixol and Fluanxol. It is a *typical* first generation anti-psychotic with some supposed antidepressive traits. When he first mentioned this I could not believe what I was hearing. I mean, most people know that antipsychotics lower dopamine and generally lower frontal lobe activity, cognition and perception etc. Any thoughts on this? Am I wrong? I am sure if I took this shit I would go crazy.


 Personally i wouldnt touch that drug with a 10 foot pole. But thats just me. However unless youve tried the usual atypical anti-psychotics and atleast one of the less harsh typical anti-psychotics such as loxapine i could not in good faith recomend this drug at all.

Also despite what people are saying i am pretty sure there isint a whole lot if any evidence to suggest that cannabis has much of a effect on dopamine at all. Even if it does it certainly does not fit the profile of a dopaminic drug such as cocaine, amphetamines or even alcohol does. It certainly does not cause dopamine depletion like the various amphetamines do as you don't feel like a complete sack of shit or go completely psychotic after giving up cannabis. Not that i think cannabis has any real withdrawal effect to begin with. But thats just my opinion there.

I have said this in the past and i will say it again i don't think dp/dr is caused by 1 neurotransmitter run amok. I don't think it's that simple or there would be alot higher success rates with the medications that are already in use. Depression and other mental illnesses even schizophrenia arent as simple as 1 neurotransmitter not working right so why should dp/dr be any different?

I havent been doing a whole lot of reasearch on the subject lately as ive been too busy with other things to really keep up on this. So take my advice with a grain of salt.


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## rob35235

Absentis said:


> I'm sorry if anyone has been mislead or misinformed due to this post. I wish I was a moderator so I could close threads filled with factually incorrect information, like this one. This forum is slowly becoming a cesspool of ignorance, and without knowledgeable moderators to steer its path it's doomed to become the empty shell of a once useful community. (Dreamer, if only we could clone you things wouldn't be so bad.)
> 
> No, there is no such theory that high levels of dopamine cause dp/dr. There isn't even a credible hypothesis that such a _correlative _relationship exists, much less a _causative _one. (I doubt you even know what theory means, since you blatantly misused the word. Protip: Theory doesn't mean "shit I made up").
> 
> Are you serious? I have the feeling that you're trolling this forum because I find it hard to believe that you are presenting this as a legitimate argument.
> 
> I've been trying to come up with a metaphor that will display the kind of outlandish statement that is being made about the brain in a readily understandable fashion. Let's substitute car for brain, and oil for dopamine. Let's say there is a "check oil" error message that is emitted from the dashboard of this car. The equivalent to rob35235's "lower dopamine" is the same approach as troubleshooting the problem with the car's oil by draining the oil from the car. "What? You mean without even checking the car for a leak, looking at the engine, asking if we're using the wrong kind of oil, or taking it into a dealership?" "Nah Dude, the problem is with the oil, so if we take it out we'll be fine." I shouldn't need to say this, but I'll say it anyway: You need oil to run a car.
> 
> Now if you're thinking to yourself that this analogy makes no sense, then you know what it is like for me to read posts like this one.


Why the FK would I be trolling the forum after 300+ posts? Here is something to ponder:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine_hypothesis_of_schizophrenia

Regardless of what you want to believe, our condition is not certainly dissimilar to schizophrenia...likely we have a higher tolerance to certain chemical imbalances than those who progress into hallucinations. In fact, many schizophrenics or people who end up in pure psychosis begin many years earlier with depersonalzation-like symptoms.


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## Tommygunz

i am certain that the correlation has more to do with low dopamine rather than high dopamine. although it is significantly more complicated than that. my DP came from a dopamine crash after extended partying, lack of sleep and cocaine. so the proof is kinda in the pudding right there. exhausting my existing dopamine supply caused my DP and it took months to rebuild it and get my mind to recognize that it was safe to stop perpetuating DP.

anyways, here's an article i posted a while back where they lowered a guys dopamine intentionally and he exhibited nearly every symptom of DP/DR. pay close attention to the third paragraph and the symptoms and see if they sound familiar.

Subjective Experiences During Dopamine Depletion
A paradigm that induces acute dopamine depletion with the drug alphamethylpara tyrosine (AMPT), a reversible inhibitor of tyrosine hydroxylase, has been used successfully to assess the occupancy of striatal dopamine D2 receptors by endogenous dopamine in vivo (1). Here we describe the dramatic subjective experiences induced by acute dopamine depletion in one healthy volunteer. They included a whole spectrum of psychiatric symptoms and highlighted the contribution of the dopaminergic system to diverse major psychiatric disorders.

In our study, dopamine depletion was achieved by oral administration of 4.5 g AMPT in 25 hours, as described earlier (1). Striatal D2 receptors were assessed at baseline and after acute dopamine depletion by using the bolus/constant infusion [123I]IBZM technique (1). Acquisition, reconstruction, and analysis of the single photon emission computed tomography data were performed as described previously (2).

Mr. A was a healthy, extraverted, very well functioning 21-year-old medical student without even minor psychological difficulties or psychiatric disorders in his family. His Global Assessment of Functioning Scale score was 97. Written informed consent was obtained from Mr. A. We will describe the spontaneous reported subjective experiences after he started the first dose of 750 mg AMPT at t=0 hours (1). After 7 hours, Mr. A felt more distance between himself and his environment. Stimuli had less impact; visual and audible stimuli were less sharp. He experienced a loss of motivation and tiredness. After 18 hours, he had difficulty waking up and increasing tiredness; environmental stimuli seemed dull. He had less fluency of speech. After 20 hours, he felt confused. He felt tense before his appointment and had an urge to check his watch in an obsessive way. After 24 hours, Mr. A had inner restlessness, flight of ideas; his ideas seemed inflicted, and he could not remember them. He felt a loss of control over his ideas. After 28 hours, he felt ashamed, frightened, anxious, and depressed. He was afraid that the situation would continue. At that time, blepharospasm, mask face, and tremor were noted. After 30 hours, he was tired and slept 11 hours. After 42 hours, he had poor concentration. In the next hours, he returned to normal.


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## dreamingoflife

> rob35235:
> many schizophrenics or people who end up in pure psychosis begin many years earlier with depersonalzation-like symptoms.


Just a word of advise and I am in no way trying to argue with anyone on this forum but saying that is probably the worst thing to do on a dr/dp forum considering many have a fear of getting that. I bet at least one person that reads that will flip out and start thinking they are going to get schizophrenia or lose their mind.


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## guest1234

dreamingoflife said:


> Just a word of advise and I am in no way trying to argue with anyone on this forum but saying that is probably the worst thing to do on a dr/dp forum considering many have a fear of getting that. I bet at least one person that reads that will flip out and start thinking they are going to get schizophrenia or lose their mind.


I agree. Not cool.



> Regardless of what you want to believe, our condition is not certainly dissimilar to schizophrenia...likely we have a higher tolerance to certain chemical imbalances than those who progress into hallucinations. In fact, many schizophrenics or people who end up in pure psychosis begin many years earlier with depersonalzation-like symptoms.


As tommygunz said the dopamine pathways in the body are extremely complex. It's not anywhere near as simple as 'well this has some of the same symptoms as this so they must have a similar cause' as it really depends on so many other factors. For example in schizophrenia, problems with dopamine in one pathway may elevate the 'positive' symptoms and problems in another the 'negative' symptoms.

There is also a lot of evidence _against_ the high dopamine theory in schizophrenia. Some studies show that some patients had over 90% of their dopamine receptors blocked by antipsychotic drugs, but showed little reduction in their psychoses. They think that glutamate might have a significant role, maybe more so than dopamine too. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/business/24drug.html?_r=2&ei=5087&em=&en=6a0e8fe7296833ff&ex=1204002000&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin
There is also evidence of a number of functional and structural anomalies in the brains of some people diagnosed with schizophrenia, such as changes in grey matter density in the frontal and temporal lobes. There are multiple causes for psychosis and schizophrenia, including gene mutations and anatomical lesions. Whereas DP is NOT due to any kind of neurodegeneration or problem with brain function or development per se.

I would just be very careful before suggesting otherwise. I don't know of anyone who had DP who has gone on to develop anything more serious. If anything it appears to be the other way around, that people might develop DP after suffering anxiety disorders or depression.


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## Johnny Dep

ThoughtOnFire said:


> I have been under the impression that Cannabis/THC triggers a release of what dopamine (or serotonin) that you have stored already. Not that it produces more of these...but depletes the system of what was there. That's why, (I've always thought), you either gain tolerance to certain drugs, *or they burn you out.*


This sounds closer to a description of what Ecstasy does.


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## Johnny Dep

surfingisfun001 said:


> Why the hell can't doctors check our dopamine, cortisol, etc. levels and figure out what the fuck is wrong with us. Instead it seems like it's... "here try methodithydonticorfluentprozacaside" ! cheers!


I think its because many neurotransmitters do not cross the blood-brain barrier. So taking a blood sample would be useless. They would have to do a spinal tap.


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## Johnny Dep

comfortably numb said:


> I have said this in the past and i will say it again i don't think dp/dr is caused by 1 neurotransmitter run amok. I don't think it's that simple or there would be alot higher success rates with the medications that are already in use. Depression and other mental illnesses even schizophrenia arent as simple as 1 neurotransmitter not working right so why should dp/dr be any different?


This reminds me of something I read today. A researcher who admitted he didn't know what causes DP said he suspected a useful thing to consider in finding the cause is keeping in mind that there is no known "organic disorder" which causes DP. Meaning no one gets a tumor in a certain part of their brain and suddenly they have DP. No physical malfunction is associated with this, according to that researcher.


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## guest1234

Johnny Dep said:


> This reminds me of something I read today. A researcher who admitted he didn't know what causes DP said he suspected a useful thing to consider in finding the cause is keeping in mind that there is no known "organic disorder" which causes DP. Meaning no one gets a tumor in a certain part of their brain and suddenly they have DP. No physical malfunction is associated with this, according to that researcher.


Ties in to my own beliefs frankly. I don't think generally speaking anything physical causes it, although there may be the odd exception. I got rid by following the tried and tested acceptance, distraction, non-avoidance strategy which basically indicates it is behavioural/psychological.

That said, I do believe there can be factors (such as dopamine levels) which can contribute and it certainly doesn't hurt to be generally in good health when dealing with this.


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## Surfingisfun001

I think part of what is so difficult is that there are a number of things which are known to cause symptoms of DP. I tend to think everyone's case is unique. Some people have symptoms of DP from smoking pot or taking psychedelics, others have symptoms of DP from childhood abuse, people have reported DP from Lyme Disease and Celiac aka gluten allergies. Then there are those who have symptoms of DP from anxiety and panic attacks.

I was just looking through my medical file (which is 4 inches thick now) and came across some blood work that showed: low dopamine, low seratonin, low GABA, low cortisol, and low DHEA levels. It was blood work done from a doctor that somehow I didn't end up following through with. There were a few notes he jotted down about which supplements I should take and they were literally identical to the ones Tommygunz listed. I thought that was pretty interesting.

For me DP just happened one day, no panic attack, no prior drug use. I'm starting to believe that for me personally it has something to do with adrenal fatigue caused by pituitary damage as that is what all my current tests are pointing to.


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## Dyna

Hi Surfing is fun-How do you know that youhave damage to your pituitary? Also I asked my GP about checking out cortisol levels and she it was hard to distinguish between good and bad levels?


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## Surfingisfun001

Dyna said:


> Hi Surfing is fun-How do you know that youhave damage to your pituitary? Also I asked my GP about checking out cortisol levels and she it was hard to distinguish between good and bad levels?


The pituitary gland and the adrenals work together to produce cortisol. I've been seeing an endocrinologist who has found out that I have very low cortisol levels and diagnosed me with severe adrinal fatigue. He says the cause is either from damage to the pituitary or a pituitary tumor and I had an MRI done on my pituitary showing there was no tumor. Around the time I got DP I had been boxing a lot and been knocked out a few times so it kind of makes sense.


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## voidvoid

Ther are so many physical factors that can cause or make a difference in DP/DR that I´m having trouble remembering them all, not to mention remembering their names in swedish







some day I´m gonna have to scan the forum and write it all down so I can question my doctors about it and ask for tests. I have had no tests done at all except for the standard bloodwork.

Off the top of my head:

Thyroid
Adrenal Fatigue
Serotonin
Dopamine
Norepinephrine
Cortisol
Gaba
Allergies
Candida
Epilepsy in various forms

What have I forgotten?


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## cris24333

when i get scared i feel like i cant really get scared


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## Aridity

cris24333 said:


> when i get scared i feel like i cant really get scared


What has that to do with this thread? Also,I really really dont know what caused my DP/DR. I just happened one day,I noticed when I stood on my balcony and the world seemed so fucking weird,I thought wtf uhm maybe I have had not to much sunlight,as I basically sat isolated in my room for a very very long time,I didn't eat well and my sleeping habit was very very bad. Maybe my DR/DP has something to do with that? I also had two Migraine attacks with Aural vision,the first one was very sever when the seconde was only aura vision but not really a major headache. but I also dont know if that caused my DR/DP I just totally forgot the day when I got it,and that makes me really desperate as knowing the cause is a vital thing to know. And also the thing that is making me nuts,that every fucking single person on this fucking damn world,says a different thing,I dont know what to believe anymore.


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