# Free will



## 3ean (Aug 14, 2014)

"possible trigger" I'm practically recovered from DP but hanging on to this one last philosophical obsession. As an artist, the answer is deeply important to me. Do we have free will or not? Most evidence suggest that we don't while experience suggests that is it at least an illusion. What is everyone's take on it or how do deal with not thinking about such a personal issue.


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## Wendy (Aug 7, 2013)

That question will be asked for centuries and centuries, but no one can either validate or invalidate, for there's no sure way to know.

I think the reason is that we need to look at "free will" as something that's not so spiritual and more environmental. There are always things in your path that will stop you from what you want to do; mental illness, physical illnesses, personality traits, et cetera. However, (and I assume that you're looking at this question spiritually) there's really nothing setting us on a predetermined path and there's nothing pulling the strings behind the curtain. You can run down the street completely naked, you could punch a brick wall, you could wave your arms around and sing as loud as you can. There's nothing stopping you there.

Free will, in a spiritual sense, is there for you. You can do whatever you want with your body and whatever path you take will determine your future.

Free will, in a more realistic and less spiritual sense, is not so much so. As certain environments, dangers, threats, and the world change around you, you honestly cannot do certain things because of that.


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## 3ean (Aug 14, 2014)

Hey Solomon. I agree with you and really have almost no issues with more spiritual notions of destiny or fate but I'm really struggling with the ideas of determinism. In a deterministic universe, or a random or probabilistic universe there is no room for free will. Like ALL of your thoughts, feeling choices, ideas, outputs etc. are not in your control whatsoever. 0%


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## Anonymity (Jul 8, 2013)

Some people have complete free will and some people dont. It all depends on the circumstances.

For example, the DP sufferers that have learned helplessness have free will that is enchained. They cannot have free will to a full extent without being able to overcome learned helplessness first.

It's all related to context, as what does the will need to be free from to be considered free will.

In spirituality, free will becomes too deep to really understand.


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## 3ean (Aug 14, 2014)

Causality. Causality states that you had no choice in writing that comment. It is not hard to grasp but look up and understand the determinist perspective. It seems like all of our choices and beliefs are merely caused by past external factors. we have NO free will under this very plausible concept.


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## Wendy (Aug 7, 2013)

What you're looking for will never come to you.

You seem very, very adamant about this standpoint and no matter what information is passed to you that contradicts your argument, you'll find any possible way to counter-act it. If you're so frightened by this new obsession, then you should not look for evidence that contradicts it (although "free will" can neither be invalidated or validated, like I said prior) and find ways to stop the thinking and worry about it. You're never going to get the answer you want, the *absolute* negative that shows that free will is present or not - you won't think your way out of this, so stop the obsession instead of the philosophy.


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## 3ean (Aug 14, 2014)

Solomon agreed. Just there are to very different ways to live your life depending on what you believe. How should I live my life when both options are equally valid?


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## Wendy (Aug 7, 2013)

3ean said:


> Solomon agreed. Just there are to very different ways to live your life depending on what you believe. How should I live my life when both options are equally valid?


Try not to care as much.

I couldn't tell you how many times I sat at home trying to think my way out of an existential crisis, part of that was even the free will argument you're stating. Sometimes you just can't give a damn about these things; even though they're frightening, you can't do anything about the way things are set-up, so there's really no point in debating the thoughts in your head. Also, if both are equally valid, then why not go with the one that makes you feel the best? They're both equally correct, so you're not really picking the wrong answer.


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## 3ean (Aug 14, 2014)

One FEELS right while the other SEEMS right. Just like DP we learn that our feelings are usually not correct. No I know you are right I just think this one is going to haunt me for a bit. Because in the end one of them is correct. I guess there's really no point living your life not believing in free will. I remember I used to be ok with the fact I didnt have free will, before DP but now its scaring the shit out of me.


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## 3ean (Aug 14, 2014)

And Solomon what other existential crisis trumps this one? Isn't this kind of the big one?


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## Wendy (Aug 7, 2013)

3ean said:


> One FEELS right while the other SEEMS right. Just like DP we learn that our feelings are usually not correct. No I know you are right I just think this one is going to haunt me for a bit. Because in the end one of them is correct. I guess there's really no point living your life not believing in free will. I remember I used to be ok with the fact I didnt have free will, before DP but now its scaring the shit out of me.


There's a quote that I read a long time ago, it helped me a bit, not sure if it would benefit you. It was on the subject of some outlandish philosophy that ended up scaring a bunch of people, she wrote:

"I know that whatever I think up in my head is not real because I haven't programmed my imagination to be any form of reality." - I think she meant that, you could kill yourself with all these thoughts and obsessions, but in the end you're only making them up in your imagination, which could be way outside of what truly happens in the end. There's unlimited possibilities at the end of our life, just because a bunch of people debate the topic of "free will" doesn't mean that it's even remotely true to the ending of our existence.

Anything can become an existential crisis - because the crisis is only an obsession of thought and you can obsess over, quite literally, everything.


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## Pyrite (Mar 25, 2014)

3ean said:


> Causality. Causality states that you had no choice in writing that comment. It is not hard to grasp but look up and understand the determinist perspective. It seems like all of our choices and beliefs are merely caused by past external factors. we have NO free will under this very plausible concept.


we have free will, but we allow are will to be heavily influenced by our surroundings and the goings on in our lives.

It's in our nature for are will to be largely dictated by cause and effect because 100%no-strings free will would be utterly worthless. It would be nothing but spontaneous pointless action with no bearing on reality, experience or desire.

We have enough free will decide our actions, but they will always have a cause behind them.

I suppose it doesn't bother me because this system works fine, and true free will has no desirable qualities, beyond having some vague concept of freedom surrounding it, and people hate the idea of any of their freedoms being stifled.


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## 3ean (Aug 14, 2014)

Pyrite if you were to follow your argument to a logical conclusion you would agree that your thoughts, ideas, personality, the way you dress, beliefs etc. are all products of your environment and you had NO control over them. "You" are merely an observer of your life. edit: solomon thats a good quote, thanks.


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## Pyrite (Mar 25, 2014)

3ean said:


> Pyrite if you were to follow your argument to a logical conclusion you would agree that your thoughts, ideas, personality, the way you dress, beliefs etc. are all products of your environment and you had NO control over them. "You" are merely an observer of your life. edit: solomon thats a good quote, thanks.


I have control, I decided what to do based on the situation, the situation dose not MAKE me take certain actions.

If I'm getting chased by wolves in the woods and come to a fork in the road, which one I take is entirely up to my free will, or I could use my free will to turn and try and fight, or let myself be killed. I could even use my free will to pointlessly recite poetry for no reason , and then get eaten.

Point is, we have free will, but how we CHOOSE to use it is INFLUENCED by the environment.


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## 3ean (Aug 14, 2014)

Pyrite, you are arguing that some element of your mind or body exists outside of the laws of physics. All of that brain processing is dictated by physical laws. Those laws state that the position of every particle in your brain was there because of the position of them a second ago etc etc. Your choice to run one way or another is not "yours" it is the result of your brain, which is just as much a physical object as a rock. It follows the exact same laws, meaning that any free will is an illusion.


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## Pyrite (Mar 25, 2014)

3ean said:


> Pyrite, you are arguing that some element of your mind or body exists outside of the laws of physics. All of that brain processing is dictated by physical laws. Those laws state that the position of every particle in your brain was there because of the position of them a second ago etc etc. Your choice to run one way or another is not "yours" it is the result of your brain, which is just as much a physical object as a rock. It follows the exact same laws, meaning that any free will is an illusion.


Which is why this is such a grey subject, there is no definitive yes or no answer.

Who says the laws of physics don't accommodate for freedom of choice? We don't have anywhere near a complete understanding of how every aspect of reality works, and the will of living beings is one those mysteries.

Even if it is an illusion, then it's the most amazing illusion ever conceived by reality, and recognizing it for that won't change anything about you unless you let it. The mechanics are all still the same, you just glimpsed at the machine behind them.

When it comes to spotting illusions there are two broad ways people react: They accept the illusion and continue to enjoy the magicians work for what it is and don't let the weirs get in the way of their good time, or people loose their ability to ever enjoy the act again because they will perpetually be looking for the mirrors and wires, all the while bemoaning how there is no real magic in the world.


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## 3ean (Aug 14, 2014)

Agree with you completely. However its speculation past that point. I think the main problem I have with it right now, is that I can't exactly enjoy life fully due to lingering DP and I may or may not have any control over anything. Thats a rough position to be in. I'll just wait out the last bit of DP and reassess the situation. If you were told its an illusion would you sit back and try to enjoy it?


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## Pyrite (Mar 25, 2014)

3ean said:


> Agree with you completely. However its speculation past that point. I think the main problem I have with it right now, is that I can't exactly enjoy life fully due to lingering DP and I may or may not have any control over anything. Thats a rough position to be in. I'll just wait out the last bit of DP and reassess the situation. If you were told its an illusion would you sit back and try to enjoy it?


Of course I would still enjoy life. A lot for the things people do for fun are simply them becoming immersed in some kind of illusion. If it's an enjoyable illusion then I'll enjoy it just as much as I did before I saw through it. In order to enjoy any illusion you have to let go of your disbelief.


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## sebseb (Sep 15, 2014)

3ean said:


> Agree with you completely. However its speculation past that point. I think the main problem I have with it right now, is that I can't exactly enjoy life fully due to lingering DP and I may or may not have any control over anything. Thats a rough position to be in. I'll just wait out the last bit of DP and reassess the situation. If you were told its an illusion would you sit back and try to enjoy it?


3ean, I have been feeling what you guys call "Depersonalization/Deralization" for a few months and one of the thoughts/feelings that has been scaring the SHIT out of me the most is EXACTLY the one you are trying to solve here with this post. I have debated it with my pshychanalist and elder people and no one seems to give me 100% proof we have the free will you and me want. The thing is, I feel EXACTLY like you do: before we had DP, we could've thought about this but lol, it was "only one more philosophical question" that wouldn't destroy the amusement we had with our own personality. So, now, with DP, we obsess on that rumination and therefore we get very anxious and bored because it FEELS BORING that causality exists (this is, that our brain is a montaneous amount of circuits that dictate every thought, movement, etc... we have). BIG DIFFERENCE: when we are out of the "dp/dr" cloud we don't give a shit about this issue, just because in that "normal" state of perception we are INSIDE OUR PERSONALITY (therefore: we ARE LIVING OUR OWN SELF WITH PLAINNESS) and when we are on dp/dr we feel like we are OUTSIDE OUR PERSONALITY (therefore: we feel we aren't living our ow self, but instead OBSERVING OUR THOUGHTS, MOVEMENTS, ETC happening like mechanically). Why do you think the main complain of DPers is the feeling that they are automathons, or they feel like they live on auto-pilot like if they weren't the authors of their movements, speech, thoughts etc?

My belief now is that it is a matter of time. Dont try to answer it, just dont interact with that thought. I tried it and I have forgotten about it for a few weeks and in that matter everything went back to normal, but yesteday I remembered it again and I though "Shit noooooo...this issue again". If you think well, in DP states you could ruminate about a lot of stuff and that rumination would kill the fun you can have out of the world and yourself. (for example, you can't tell if God exists or not. And knowing if it exists or not changes the way you act right?). So don't break your head on this, I understand EXACTLY what you feel again. This is my opinion, tho. I think I am still dped but there are some questions that don't have to be answered now man, and I know it kills the joy you should take from being alive but it only does, in my opinion, because you are obsessing about it. DISTRACT yourself with someting and in a few days it's gone.

This is only my opinion,

big hug and get well

SS


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## 3ean (Aug 14, 2014)

Sebseb,

It sounds like we are on the EXACT same page. Instead of trying to solve it, I just gave up completely and forgot about it. Now I don't care and everything is great. Thanks for hte great response and I hope you recover soon.


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## sebseb (Sep 15, 2014)

3ean said:


> Sebseb,
> 
> It sounds like we are on the EXACT same page. Instead of trying to solve it, I just gave up completely and forgot about it. Now I don't care and everything is great. Thanks for hte great response and I hope you recover soon.


NICE! Are you 100% dp recovered? hug


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## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

Why wud u even ruminate about such an issue ? Of course u have free will ...it's upto you whether u use it or not! It's not even a question to obsess over...it's just something u just "do" ....perhaps ur parents, teachers brainwashed u into thinking u have no will of ur own but it's complete and utter bullshit. How do u think people create there lives !? Free will....


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## 3ean (Aug 14, 2014)

Missjess, I respect your view point and on the surface it is obvious that we do have free will. However, if you keep thinking about the idea on a scientific and logical level you will understand the paradox that is the free will issue. Socially, we have free will. Scientifically however.. I would suggest you look into it. And Sebseb, yeah you could say so. this whole dp thing is just a joke man.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2014)

Sometimes I think, you don't know what free will is, until you haven't got it.

To me, and example of not having free will would be 3 girls imprisoned for 10 years in Cleveland by that monster Ariel Castro. They didn't have free will.

Or the Monarch slaves. They didn't have free will either..

Just some thoughts..


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## 3ean (Aug 14, 2014)

yeah Zed that's a fantastic point. Look I'm not arguing against free will, I just think its an interesting discussion. If they don't have free will, then what do we have? Good point.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2014)

^^ Yeah I think it's interesting too and I'm not looking to argue with anyone either... I don't have enough understanding of the concept of 'free will' to add much though. I find it incredibly confusing to tell the truth. The concept of free will is something I've discussed with therapists every now and again but more often than not, I don't understand and I just sit there blank. I never had free will when I grew up, every aspect of my life was highly controlled.

If you don't have free will then what do you have?? Hmm.. Imprisonment?


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## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

3ean said:


> Missjess, I respect your view point and on the surface it is obvious that we do have free will. However, if you keep thinking about the idea on a scientific and logical level you will understand the paradox that is the free will issue. Socially, we have free will. Scientifically however.. I would suggest you look into it. And Sebseb, yeah you could say so. this whole dp thing is just a joke man.


Why would u think so rationally and logically about free will anyway ?? I don't understand this at all ....many of u dpd people just complicate shit that isn't complicated. What is the purpose of overthinking and "philosophising" about free will ? Ul be stuck in an endless fuking thought loop the whole thing is just pointless


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## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

Zed said:


> ^^ Yeah I think it's interesting too and I'm not looking to argue with anyone either... I don't have enough understanding of the concept of 'free will' to add much though. I find it incredibly confusing to tell the truth. The concept of free will is something I've discussed with therapists every now and again but more often than not, I don't understand and I just sit there blank. I never had free will when I grew up, every aspect of my life was highly controlled.
> 
> If you don't have free will then what do you have?? Hmm.. Imprisonment?


That is true....many of us were controlled growing up and especially us who got dp....BUT it's an illusion and once u break free and practice using ur will again u will see that it was always there and u have just given it up Bcoz u were controlled and had to give ur power away when u were younger. The real question is...are u afraid to use ur free will ? I think that's the real problem here


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## 3ean (Aug 14, 2014)

Missjess,

If i expressed to you how motivated and how much I have already accomplished in my young life I think you would understand that I am not afraid to express my free will. Just read one wikipedia article on the free will problem and you will understand the idea.


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## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

I just don't understand why u wud bother to question it and ruminate over this idea tho...what is the point ?? If ur not afraid to express ur will then why wud u even think about it.

Sorry I just don't see the point in philosophical questioning ...I never have.


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## retep (Mar 19, 2013)

The way I approach the idea of free will is that I can touch a hot stove as many times as I want but the outcome will almost always be burned skin. The outcome of this effects my freedom because there is a consequence or outcome to every action. I know the example of the stove is extremely simplistic, but it illustrates to me at least, that free-will is relative and in relationship to everything and everyone else.

If I had complete free will there would be no negative consequence because I would be able to choose the outcome.


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## botchbloc (Dec 1, 2014)

You are free within the confines of the laws of the universe- you are human, you cannot fly. You can build an airplane, and fly in the airplane. *Should* you build an airplane? There's your free will.


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