# Please, no circular logic



## bnnybrkr (Mar 11, 2008)

I believe in God and was raised a Christian. I am now searching for my own truth and have a question for anyone who believes in the Bible.......why? I am curious as to why indivual people believe that the Bible is the word of God. I'm not asking this in a demeaning way at all, for I tend toward believing in the Bible.

I have been turned off by so many of the reasons people give as to why the Bible is the word of God, as they usually use circular reasoning. An example would be that the Bible is the word of God because of its truth, and because God's words are always true then the Bible has to be true. Or the Bible is true because it's the word of God, which I know is true because it was inspired by God. I've found it astounding how many people use this kind of reasoning.

So why do you believe in the Bible? Did you have a certain experience? Have you witnessed a miracle? If you will, please share.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2008)

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## bnnybrkr (Mar 11, 2008)

Spirit, thanks for your insight and sharing your personal experience. I very much agree that we should follow our own intuition, and for me the teachings of Christ as found in the Bible really strike a chord. I also believe in a continual search for truth and being open to new ideas, so I enjoy hearing other's experiences for consideration. Again, thanks for replying.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Its just an other metaphor and nothing more. It has deep meaning and truth in it, yes, but to take it as literally the exact word of god gets so many people into trouble its not funny. How many wars and murders would not have occurred if people came saying "Hey read this book it has really cool ideas - perhaps you will find something useful in it" rather than "Believe in this or we will kill you!"?


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## lalaland (Mar 22, 2008)

Hi bnnybrkr. well i guess the best thing to do if you really want an answer from sources that are reliable would be to look at the historical evidence of the bible because it does actually have it. The bible is made up of 'books' which are first or second hand accounts of what was happening at the time. Some of it is actually first account letters from Christians who were thrown into prison for their belief and the good things they were doing for God and Christ in the new testament, etc. It is important to look at it in context as well. It is a very old book happening in a time that had cultural differences to now such as peoples 'place' in society, although people's personalities, feelings and the way they deal with things emotionally are very much the same. It is not just a metaphor i'm sorry. It is a huge historical insight into the past and into God and His working through people and gives reason to a great deal about human beings today. Most modern bibles are now printed with a commentary or explanations about things that we don't understand today like certain traditions or the meaning of some phrases. the Life Application Bible is a good one for that. So is the NIV- New International Version. http://www.ibs.org/niv/. i would encourage you to seek out one of those and do some personal reading and reflecting in your own time. best thing to do then is find a modern church with welcoming and theologically educated people such as a minister or pastor to help you with any questions coz you'll definitely have some and that's great, because then you can increase your knowledge and understanding. 
Jesus said to Peter "you are the rock on which i shall build my church and the gates of hades will not overcome it." After all the persecution Christians suffered and do still suffer for their faith, 2000 years later the bible is the most owned book on the planet. That's definitely testimony to God's truth.

i have experienced little miracles through prayer and so have many people that I know. My mother was going to do a public singing performance with a wonderful Christian message but she fell terribly sick the day before, and in the morning her throat was so sore she could barely spreak. So a group of the musicians and technicians who were Christians all gathered around her and put a hand on her shoulders and prayed for healing. At that moment she felt a warmth running up her neck and by the end of the prayer her throat was healed. She went on stage and sung perfectly 

I went to church recently and a wife of a man who was very ill came out the front and told us all that her husband had been diagnosed with cancer. he was quite old so they decided against chemo therapy and instead opted for prayer. over the course of the next few months, his family and friends were praying for his healing. each time he went in for a check up, the cancer had become less and less serious. instead of getting worse, it was miraculously getting better. the Dr's couldn't explain it. on his last check up, he was completely healed 8)

God has been there for me emotionally at times. Once my brother really badly upset me and instead of taking it into my own hands i decided to not say anything to my brother and instead talked to God about it. Now it's important to know my brother, never... ever ... apologised for anything. he was bigger and older than me and made sure i knew about it. but this time after i prayed, my brother stopped what he was doing outside and came over to me in the house. he had his hands on hips and was looking down at his feet with a serious look on his face and started saying that he felt like he'd hurt me and he was really sorry. i was astonished! but i knew it was an answer to prayer and out of God's grace i accepted his apology and you know what, i don't even remember what it was about now. i just remember the little miracle.

In my teens i told God I didn' want Him to be apart of my life. In the last few years through prayer my dp is not crippling anymore. I have some social contact, i have a job and i have a therapist. None of that would have happened without Him. I'm inspired by reading other people's stories of faith in the bible. it's called God's word because it is his will for it to be shared so we can know Him and our lives can improve.

I'd like to say that the bible is not a pointing finger and Christianity is not about hell and the threat of death and punishment. let's just take a deep breath and let that go! Jesus said "i have come so that you may have life and life to the full" and he conquered death by rising again three days after he was crucified. it is not about death but about life. i think once we let ourselves find relief in that, the fear and anger towards Christianity goes away because it is not a threat. i'd also like to apologise on behalf of anyone you've met who gave this impression to you, they may have been confused or scared themselves because of being taught the wrong thing or interpreting it wrong for themselves. pray about any uncertainties you have and God will deliver wisdom to you because He said, "seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened." Just have faith.

All the best


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2008)

lalala :arrow:


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## lalaland (Mar 22, 2008)

spirit, in all kindness you did just ignore practically everything i said. i don't know what you're talking about with 'duality'. i don't understand what you mean by the devils domain being an ignorant part of ourselves and i'm not sure what that has to do with the topic. do you mind if i ask where your motivation for all these emotionally charged opinions you have come from? 
yes i did apply for the job and etc but what i'm saying is that i wouldn't have without God answering my prayer. The Lord strengthened me whether you would like to believe that or not. He sets up opportunities for those who ask for Him to do so, then we walk through the door. It's amazing how many coincidences start happening when you pray.

I think you might be confused. Jesus did not 'find god within himself.' Jesus was the Son of God sent to earth in human form. He did not 'find' God the way regular people use that phrase. There is God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit. Think of the word 'God' as their surname! That helps me to wrap my head around it. Out of God's immeasurable love for people He sent His Son Jesus to earth to offer Himself as the ultimate sacrifice for sin so anyone who accepts what Jesus did for them will be forgiven and have eternal life which is what He wants for us all. But no, Jesus can't be compared to anyone else who has ever lived or is living. His coming onto this earth was apart of the plan for the future of human beings as prophesised in the old testament.

I've never tried thinking of God as an ego thing or a potential, I don't understand that and I wouldn't want to. Accepting him as my Creator and loving heavenly Father who wants me to know Him is soooooooo much better.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2008)

la and la.. :arrow:


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## lalaland (Mar 22, 2008)

Spirit, if you are hungry in the stomach then God is not saying to you "but i have nourished you with love" .. he doesn't mean that literally as though it will be a sufficient replacement for food. Of course it's not. Infact Jesus told his disciples to sleep when they were tired because their bodies needed rest, and he filled their empty fishing nets with fish because their bellies were hungry and they needed actual food. He didn't say to them something like - "oh well i know you're hungry but you can be filled with my love" - he gave them actual food. This is good news, spirit! please accept it because no you can't function if you 'keep losing weight like this from hunger'! you're absolutely right! God is not as metaphorical as you might think.

And yes you're right about responsibility, that's what I was saying about the Lord creating opportunity for us but we have to get out of bed that morning and make something of it because He knows it is not best for us if He does everything for us. And yes thoughts like 'have i failed god/is god displeased with my work' will create guilt and self doubt, but Jesus doesn't want you to think those things because He knows that's how we end up feeling and He doesn't want you to!! so please stop!

You can't earn your way into heaven or ever be good enough. You can't. I can't. Nobody ever could. That's why Jesus came, spirit. Jesus was all about sacrificing His life for human kind to take the punishment of sin. Honey, this is the one and actual truth, not my truth, not your truth, THE truth. It's the core reason of His coming, and this is told many times in different books of the bible, and Jesus Himself explains this. Luke chapter 22 verse 19 'And Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is (represents) my body _*given for you*_; do this (eat it) in remembrance of me." 20; In the same way, after the supper he took the cup (a drink), saying, "This cup is (represents) the new covenant in my blood, which is _*poured out for you*_."
John 3:16 - "for God loved the world so much that he gave (to be crucified) His only Son, SO THAT everyone who believes in Him shall not die but have eternal life." There are no grey areas there. That is the explanation behind everything that He did.

Spirit, taking themes of the bible out of context and misinterpreting them is what is making you stressed. I know you haven't said this but I just feel like I should say that God is not in heaven with your resume' putting a tick next to everytime you tried to be 'nourished with truth'. God knew that we couldn't be good enough no matter what we did! He knew that we had fallen away from Him and sin was ruining our lives, so He sent Jesus to lead us back, teach us more about God and draw us closer to Him through the sacrifice that Jesus made, but while it is good to be thankful and try to 'count your blessings' know that humility and good works are not the core of what God wants for us. He wants us to have eternal life with Him by accepting Jesus as our saviour.

As I said, this is not about me and this is not my opinion, this is fact and it's a GOOD one. I can only share it.

And thankyou for writing out of care, I appreciate that. Would you like to talk more about your situation? Do you have a therapist? What was your financial crisis?


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2008)

Now actually you really do misunderstand everything I have said



lalaland said:


> Spirit, if you are hungry in the stomach then God is not saying to you "but i have nourished you with love" .. he doesn't mean that literally as though it will be a sufficient replacement for food. Of course it's not. Infact Jesus told his disciples to sleep when they were tired because their bodies needed rest, and he filled their empty fishing nets with fish because their bellies were hungry and they needed actual food. He didn't say to them something like - "oh well i know you're hungry but you can be filled with my love" - he gave them actual food. This is good news, spirit! please accept it because no you can't function if you 'keep losing weight like this from hunger'! you're absolutely right! God is not as metaphorical as you might think.
> 
> And yes you're right about responsibility, that's what I was saying about the Lord creating opportunity for us but we have to get out of bed that morning and make something of it because He knows it is not best for us if He does everything for us. And yes thoughts like 'have i failed god/is god displeased with my work' will create guilt and self doubt, but Jesus doesn't want you to think those things because He knows that's how we end up feeling and He doesn't want you to!! so please stop!


That was my point ,I dont feel guilty ,because I do not have an unhealthy veiw of "god" I was being metophorical.



> You can't earn your way into heaven or ever be good enough. You can't. I can't. Nobody ever could. That's why Jesus came, spirit. Jesus was all about sacrificing His life for human kind to take the punishment of sin. Honey, this is the one and actual truth, not my truth, not your truth, THE truth. It's the core reason of His coming, and this is told many times in different books of the bible, and Jesus Himself explains this. Luke chapter 22 verse 19 'And Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is (represents) my body _*given for you*_; do this (eat it) in remembrance of me." 20; In the same way, after the supper he took the cup (a drink), saying, "This cup is (represents) the new covenant in my blood, which is _*poured out for you*_."
> John 3:16 - "for God loved the world so much that he gave (to be crucified) His only Son, SO THAT everyone who believes in Him shall not die but have eternal life." There are no grey areas there. That is the explanation behind everything that He did.





> Spirit, taking themes of the bible out of context and misinterpreting them is what is making you stressed. I know you haven't said this but I just feel like I should say that God is not in heaven with your resume' putting a tick next to everytime you tried to be 'nourished with truth'. God knew that we couldn't be good enough no matter what we did! He knew that we had fallen away from Him and sin was ruining our lives, so He sent Jesus to lead us back, teach us more about God and draw us closer to Him through the sacrifice that Jesus made, but while it is good to be thankful and try to 'count your blessings' know that humility and good works are not the core of what God wants for us. He wants us to have eternal life with Him by accepting Jesus as our saviour.


You might not think your good enough and thats exactly the wrong attitude that I was talking about ..its not healthy.We havnt fallen away from anything, again another christian distortion.Sin is not running our lives...God says there is only ONE son of god,,,,There is only one ,there is no heaven or hell ,there is one ,there is no dualitys ,there is one....one truth...no devil.....sin is created when we have an ILLUSION of good and bad or as things not being perfect in gods love....that illusion causes people to sin...Destroy your illusions.To find eternal life you must transcend eternity...you must be willing to sacfifice your "self" your ego motivation...then you find eternal life...you must die to "sin[illusion]" like jesus did or buddha did or many other faiths have and many people have without having read the bible ...etc...Taking them out of context is not making me stressed...listening to ignorance is.



> As I said, this is not about me and this is not my opinion, this is fact and it's a GOOD one. I can only share it.


Typical christian response ..."ITS FACT" It is NOT fact..thats blind faith and its useless...it aint going to "save" you ,when you see that you dont need saving..youll know you already are "saved"



> And thankyou for writing out of care, I appreciate that. Would you like to talk more about your situation? Do you have a therapist? What was your financial crisis?


LOL firstly ,do you have a therapist?,many christians need one in the west because the west is still so unhealthily conditioned by "christiantity" No I dont think talking any longer is a good idea ,we obviously disagree though im ok with that..you start spouting the "its a fact" stuff rather than opening your mind..thats not my problem its yours ,its up to you.

Good day
Spirit.


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## lalaland (Mar 22, 2008)

bnnybrkr, I'm sure there are many local Christians near you that have experienced miracles or have known about them. There is an amazing Christian conference for women called 'the Colour conference' each year in Sydney. Thousands of women attend and there are several guest speakers who take to the stage and share their stories. In the last two years two women have also said that they were diagnosed with cancer but through prayer it was miraculously healed. You don't get cured of cancer by looking within yourself, or sending out signs to the universe, or whatever else.
Personally, I don't know why so many people today *don't* believe in miracles. fair enough if someone hasn't actually heard of any. but when they're happening and we get told about them by the people who experienced them, to me what doesn't make any sense is to argue it or try to use logic to get around it. Dr's couldn't use medicinal logic to explain why these people were healed. It was because of their faith in Jesus. The bible is our source of information about Him and the things that He does for us today are consistent with what it says. 
As far as the history goes i would just encourage you again to talk to people who have been to theological college or a minister etc. even a lot of modern bibles themselves today come with historical information included at the start or at the back or down the bottom of the pages to help us put it in context. best wishes xo


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2008)

You dont have to read the bible to experience miracles,I could tell a few "miracles" I have experienced,but I didnt need to read the bible ,even though I have read it.ALL faiths experience miracles that doesnt make their particular religion is truer than any other.Miracles arent just things of the bible.

Spirit.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

I think "miracle" healings due to faith and prayer can be explained in a different way than the usual reason that God came and somehow with a magical hand took away the cancer or illness, in my opinion it is more likely that peoples illnesses like cancer were being caused by a mind/body imbalance and when a person prays and puts their trust in God then that faith creates a relaxation on the psychological/mind/body level so it creates a leg-go effect which makes a persons ego structures relax, and when a persons ego structures let go a little it creates an opening up of the body so nutrients, blood and energy lifeforce can reach the diseased and cancerous region and the body can heal itself. The miracle is the ability of the body to heal itself if we let it and if God has done anything it is putting that capacity in every human from every faith, I very much doubt he personally intervienes and helps people who are deserving, I can see no evidence for that in the world.


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2008)

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## lalaland (Mar 22, 2008)

On the bright side there is actually a lot of evidence of God's work in the world if you're willing to see it. (and i guess even if you're not.) In Uganda, one of the worst atrocities against humanity - child soldiers- has been rife, terrorising people out of their homes and forcing children into becoming murderers. Last year a woman named Marylin Skinner who has been living in Uganda for many years, asked the hillsong church's 'sisterhood' (which is basically thousands of women who go) in sydney at one of their women's 'colour conference's for help. this year she came back saying "i feel like dancing i'm so excited!" and had this report:

"when you call on Jesus' name things happen...when I had a gun to the back of my head I didn't call my husbands name I called out 'JESUS' and guess what, the gun didn't go off. when there were 25 men trying to break down a simple wooden door to rape me, I called on that name - 'JESUS!' and guess what, they couldn't get through... don't you just love Him? On the way over I was reading Jeremiah 10 verse 5 in the message bible, this is what it says: 'our God is famously great, who can fail to be impressed by Him.' ... Jesus was the greatest revolutionary that ever walked on this planet. He conquered through the incredible power of his great love. For centuries men have tried to wipe out the infulence of Jesus but that love is still as great today as when it was first made known to the human race 2000 years ago....i'm here to let you know revolution is rising in Uganda, a revolution of love, only the love of Jesus can do that. My report thismorning is that the glory of God is beginning to show in Uganda, that is not the story i brought to you last year! laughter is starting to fill the streets of Gulu! Through the sisterhood, injustice is beginning to roll back.... I told you i passionately believe that the local church is the hope of the world, so we started a church in gulu, and 2020 people showed up for the very first service! the people of northern uganda are being confronted with the power and the presence of Jesus Christ, and when Jesus shows up he fixes broken things. He fixes broken people, he fixes broken nations... Gulu's becoming liveable again! A couple of months ago in gulu i was talking to one of our sound technicians and he said 'you don't know this but i was once one of those children who had to walk 10 miles to hide from the soldiers and pray they wouldn't find me afraid every night i would be abducted or killed, but recently when i was in gulu i decided to walk down that same road and to my amazement the children weren't seeking shelter they were seeking the comfort of their own homes - surely God has made a way.' Your prayers have changed the situation there! For 20 years governments tried to stop that war and nothing happened, then suddenly 30 000 women get together in prayer and what happens- everything changes! that's not all. the camps where one and a half million people were forced to live are being bull dozed down not because they want the land but because peace and stability is being returned to uganda! how amazing is that! who can fail to be impressed by our famously great God?!... when you're dealing with jesus you're dealing with incredible greatness. don't forget that... so i stand before you thismorning and i am so excited, encouraged and grateful that you came alongside your sister from uganda... you added a layer to prayer and through your genorosity of your offerings we've just finalised purchase of land in gulu and in two months we will finish building the watoto childrens village! my dear sisters today recieve and experience the amazing grace of jesus deep in your soul... y'know the last 14 years i've been doing everything i can, giving it my best and i'm gonna die doing it and i believe in my lifetime we will rescue 2 million children...i heard God say "marylin, the women, save the mums, restore dignity to these women" because the most wounded in africa are women. so we're going to launch living hope ministries for women...y'know no one did more for vunerable women than Jesus. He changed their status more than anyone on the planet.... thismorning i brought with me a precious daughter from uganda. the glory of God has filled her life,God has restored her- (she says 'praise God...i never met my parents because they both died.. they both had aids, my granmother raised me. she loved Jesus and used to tell me how much He loved me. i became born again when i was 8 years old. my grandother would pray that Jesus would help us. in 2003 men carrying guns came to our hut and abducted me. if you couldnt keep up with the soldiers they would kill you. i used to sing 'my only hope is you Jesus, my only hope is in You.' i now know Jesus brings hope to the hopeless.. i went back to my grandmother. i've learnt that Jesus loves me despite of my past and He accepts me just the way i am. i am so grateful for my aunties all around the world just like you who love me and dont judge or reject me and who have helped me to believe in myself again and i now know i can become something significant in life, i love God and know He has a purpose for my life. i want to thankyou for your good works and your prayers.) I believe Jesus will use her to bring healing and restoration to thousands of children in northern uganda."

Pretty incredible. Her whole speech went for longer hence the '...' here and there but that's the main body of what she was sharing. i hope that helps anyone who's reading this and have been wondering about God to gain a greater understanding of Him a little bit and build on their faith.

God bless


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Yeah but why did God and Jesus let Uganda get into such a mess in the first place, why did they let atrocities and genocide occur, its selective thinking when you blame Jesus for the good parts and not the bad dont you think?


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2008)

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## lalaland (Mar 22, 2008)

Pablo said:


> Yeah but why did God and Jesus let Uganda get into such a mess in the first place, why did they let atrocities and genocide occur, its selective thinking when you blame Jesus for the good parts and not the bad dont you think?


Everybody asks that question. Christians ask that question. You wouldn't have a sense of compassion if you didn't ask that. The answer is in something Marylin explained. She said Jesus' name is great and when you call on it good things happen. WHEN YOU CALL ON IT. Jesus, in all His magnificant power, grace and love leaves it to our disposal. Why? Because God gave humans free choice. And if He didn't, we would all be saying the opposite - 'why won't God give us free choice? what kind of life is this?' Like a parent who loves their child. You can only give them every possible piece of advice and unconditional love to help them in their jounrey of life but you shouldn't stop them from making their own decisions. Parents who do that drive their kids absolutely berserk and eventually the kids hate them. And like a great parent, God gives us every possible piece of advice, direction, prayer, the Bible, everything that He can to help us lead good lives, but without taking away our choice to do things he wouldn't like us to because that's up to us. Throughout history God has not been at fault. Humans have been. God said "love your neighbour and your enemies" but humans make the choice to fight each other in hatred and ignorance. He also acknowledged that there would be enemies in this world of free choice, he didn't say "love your neighbour but not your enemies because they won't exist" they do exist, that's a choice that we make to be enemies of each other. However to make things right again, God offers forgiveness and a clean slate. Anything you ask forgiveness for, He will, because He is greater than mistakes, He is greater than sin. I know we then think, "but how could he forgive THAT person, or THAT sin, it was too horrible!" The truth is if there were things He couldn't forgive, they would be defeating Him, wouldn't they. If God could offer a clean slate to everyone but not murderers, murder would be greater than His love. It's not saying murder is ok. It's not. God tells us not to do it. But when it happens, such as in the case of these child soldiers who are now being raised up in the church under God's plan and guidance to be future leaders of Uganda, God is there to forgive them if they ask for it, and build them up over time to be used for good, instead of evil. So it's not selective thinking to not blame God for bad things, it's totally logical. He doesn't do them. People do. But praising Him for having a love so great that he forgives us afterwards for the things that we do so wrong is justified because we don't deserve it, it is not by our greatness that we are delivered from a life of darkness but through His love, and that's why people say thankyou.


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2008)

God may forgive you, but the stuff about a clean slate ,that's wrong....there will be mercy through Gods "judgement" but it will still have to be balanced karmically...Anything bad that happens to you ,happens because you manifested that situation into your life, yes you couldn't have done that without god holding your hand before you say it..If you murder someone then in a future life you will reap the results...there is two causes to every situation not one...you cant punish one person and not another...blame can be put nowhere with one person...what goes around comes around...and in that Gods judgement is not selfish...Do you think "oh ill just go and be abusive and god will forgive me"...your naiveity astonishes me to be honest.. "god will make it all better" take responsibility for your actions! for gods sake!.,

And before you take personal offence refere here.....http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14788&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=13 and down the page for your post claiming we are insane and my reply........

Spirit.


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## ihavemessedupdreams (Apr 19, 2007)

> Pablo wrote:
> Yeah but why did God and Jesus let Uganda get into such a mess in the first place, why did they let atrocities and genocide occur, its selective thinking when you blame Jesus for the good parts and not the bad dont you think?


you and I and everyone else choose what we want to do and how we treat people thats up to us not god
so god didint let anything become a mess.
and when you call him for help he came and helped fix that mess

thats what i think anyway.

@lalaland who are you and copefull to call people insane? copefull likes to project his insecurities at people thats what that whole post was about
nothing more nothing less

but hes not on this forum anymore so I dont want to talk bad about him or 'behind his back'

@spirit -- did you get my prvt msg?


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

lalaland said:


> Everybody asks that question. Christians ask that question. You wouldn't have a sense of compassion if you didn't ask that. The answer is in something Marylin explained. She said Jesus' name is great and when you call on it good things happen. WHEN YOU CALL ON IT. Jesus, in all His magnificant power, grace and love leaves it to our disposal. Why? Because God gave humans free choice.


The problem with your thinking is that there are so so many people who have called on Jesus and God to help them and their prayers were not answered. Do you think that people who ended up in concentration camps didn't pray to God with all their heart? Do you not think that there are innocent people who called for Jesus's help just before a bomb hit their house? Im sure there are hundreds of people every day who's prayers are not answered and have to suffer and die, if there was any truth to your way of viewing God's power then surely there would be less suffering and problems in the more religious (or more Christian) countries, but that clearly isn't true. God is dead.


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## lalaland (Mar 22, 2008)

Look guys, (ladies, whatever) the bible's nickname is 'the good news' because it is just that. It is the best news any of us could possibly imagine. That we are LOVED, yes- personally, beyond our understanding. That we are forgiven, that Jesus took the greatest punishment for our sin (John 3:16) because God loves us unconditionally and all we have to do is have faith in Him to begin our journey in life with our own Creator. How _great_ is that! I know people try to weigh up logic next to Jesus but the truth is it wasn't logical for Him to die for people that hated Him. It wasn't logical for Him to ask God the Father to forgive those who literally nailed his hands to the cross while he was hanging there because "they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34). Can you ask for a greater display of love? Can you ask yourself if there is something that matters more to your heart than love? Can you imagine a greater God? Obviously some think so but I just want to say it's because of one reason. They don't know Him. This is not an insult, but they just don't know Him, because as Marylin explained, the woman who stood in front of tens of thousands of Christian women and testified to them how their prayers to Jesus are responsible for the miraculous changes happening in Uganda, "who can fail to be impressed by our famously great God!" 8)

Do you think she is a liar? Do you think her eyes that have seen the changes happen were tricking her? Do you think that those children who were forced into becoming soldiers and then let Jesus into their heart and now experience God being _personally_ there for them are not really experiencing Him in the way the bible tells us we do even though they are? - (a good point to the topic of this thread.) Do you think when Marylin said "did you know God still speaks today in an audible voice" and told us what she heard Him say, she was just hearing things or her own voice even though she wasn't speaking? Do you think she would have recieved a personal, audible message from God the father who she dedicates her life to if He didn't know she would know it was Him? People!! Wake up! :shock:  Things are happening in the name of Jesus, the Son of God, and they are all good and great and worth believing in. And if you want to know about him, don't ask a buddhist for example - ask HIM! READ THE BIBLE. (The new testament in particular coz that's where the stories of Him in the world are.) Would you ask a beautician how to put together an engine? Would you ask a plumber to fly a spaceship? They might have done a bit of reading on each of those tasks and know bits and pieces about engines and spaceships but are they qualified?? NO.

It doesn't mean being a Christian that bad things won't happen to you. Look at the hatred that was displayed towards Jesus himself. Infact when you are a Christian there is an active enemy who Jesus spoke about who works against you to try to tear you away from God so yes, they do happen. The African girl who spoke with Marylin said she became a Christian when she was 8. She wasn't kidnapped and had to live a life of a soldiers wife until she was 13. Did she pray that whole time? Yes she did. Was she faithful to Jesus? yes she was. And has God delivered her from her situation? Yes, He did. The point is not that she suffered but that she is now living a free, blessed and healthy life that includes God's will for her. The bible tells us God will not put His children through anything they cannot handle. Does she believe that after everything violent and dark and awful that she went through? Yes she does. 
It doesn't mean being forgiven is to relieve people of taking responsibility for things either. I recently heard the testimony of a man who went to jail. He became a Christian in prison. Did God send an angel then on that day to pull him out of prison and not have to deal with any consequences? No. He still served a sentence. I've been forgiven for things by people but it doesn't mean what I did didn't call for an apology. It did. It just means now that person doesn't hold it against me and I no longer hold it against myself. We can't go through life building up and building up bad "karma" or resentment or grudges- any pyschologist will tell you it's unhealthy and that forgiveness is extremely good for the soul and mental health. Something I know I'm personally dealing with at the moment. It's a challenge, but it's worth it and the world has not seen a greater display of forgiveness than in Jesus Christ.

Take your questions to Him if you really want answers. Close a door and say "Jesus! I wanted to talk to you about ... I don't understand ... why does ... happen?" When you are honest with Him and need to know something he answers you. It may not be in the way that you think, but the bible says "seek and you shall find" (Luke 11:9) in reference to Jesus. That's Gods promise and there are countless stories in the world to show that His word could and can be counted on.

To Spirit, I don't know why you desire so bad to be consistently rude to me. If you are taking things I'm saying the wrong way maybe you could see that as a reflection of what you think of yourself, not what I think. No one called you insane. I don't know why you want to have a personal fight with me after absolutely everything that I have posted. All I can say to you is that I know the one true God to be who He is and I will spend the rest of my life continuing to learn about Him because He has shown Himself to me time and time again. Who are you to argue my personal experiences? Do you think that I made them up? You are ill educated on the truth about Jesus Christ. He is not a siddah or a divine awakened spirit or whatever, he is the Son of God, He said so Himself which is what pinned Him to the cross JUST HOW HE SAID it would, and just when He died and people thought that was the end of Him, He came back to life, just as He said He would, because this was all apart of Gods plan for the world as prophesised in the bible before His time. So please quit with your buddhist or whatever they are theories on Christianity. I'm going to assume in friendliness that maybe no ones told you the truth about Him before. And if they have and you've chosen to ignore it, well. I guess that explains why we're butting heads. yeah?
Of course I am not going to click on the link to your post. Did you not read what I said about not going back there? It is because I am not interested in getting into it. I believe that the person who started the thread was right in what they were saying and considering all the people ganging up on them I decided to show them my support. If you have a problem with that, that is your problem only. That's the last thing I will say to you, in case you haven't noticed, I haven't been speaking to you directly like you have me because I don't want this to be about either of us. This is about everyone who is reading that is staying quiet and may be learning one or two things about Jesus. I am a Christian and it is my right, will and purpose to share the love that God has shared with me. I am only happy and blessed to have the priveledge to do so!

God bless everyone, take care and if you are seeking, don't let anyone stop you. God is greater than anything you will come up against. Never let go of that truth. Phillipians 4:13 says "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me". Just yesterday I discovered things about my past that are causing my derealisation when I'd come to think that this was just the way my mind was and I may have to just accept it. It happened because of prayer. I woke up with the intention of cutting off my support network and instead I had a breakthrough. One that made me get so excited I was giggling, I cannot remember the last time I felt that so deep in my heart. It was awesome.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

You say that it is wrong to argue against your personal experience but then you disrespect everybody elses which is hypocritical. You criticise people for picking and choosing bits they like about spirituality but how do you think they wrote the bible in the first place? they picked and choose those scriptures which they thought most relevant and discarded others and could well have been politically motivated with their choice of scripture, so you come on here and criticise us for doing exactly what you religion is based upon.


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## lalaland (Mar 22, 2008)

Pablo said:


> You say that it is wrong to argue against your personal experience but then you disrespect everybody elses which is hypocritical. You criticise people for picking and choosing bits they like about spirituality but how do you think they wrote the bible in the first place? they picked and choose those scriptures which they thought most relevant and discarded others and could well have been politically motivated with their choice of scripture, so you come on here and criticise us for doing exactly what you religion is based upon.


No it's not hypcocritical. I've only responded to the false statements that people have made about Christianity and if they did it using their beliefs well sorry but if they're wrong they're wrong. Like someone saying something about Jesus being an enlightened spirit like buddah. Sorry but that's not actually true.

And no, the bible does not mix and match different beliefs and roll them into one. I was talking about combining conflicting ideas and trying to prove a point with them when that doesn't make sense. I'm not talking about details. All the times Jesus went to the bathroom or all the conversations He would have had with His mum or whatever aren't mentioned in the bible no. It's not the point. It's the same Jesus.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

lalaland said:


> No it's not hypcocritical. I've only responded to the false statements that people have made about Christianity and if they did it using their beliefs well sorry but if they're wrong they're wrong. Like someone saying something about Jesus being an enlightened spirit like buddah. Sorry but that's not actually true.
> 
> And no, the bible does not mix and match different beliefs and roll them into one. I was talking about combining conflicting ideas and trying to prove a point with them when that doesn't make sense. I'm not talking about details. All the times Jesus went to the bathroom or all the conversations He would have had with His mum or whatever aren't mentioned in the bible no. It's not the point. It's the same Jesus.


How do you know they are wrong about Jesus, you haven't met Jesus all you have is what your mind has picked and chosen about him from the second hand evidence you have been given. and the bits left out of the Bible weren't just irrelevant scriptures often they were the scriptures which encouraged free thinking and personal experience ie the scriptures which took away power from a centralised Church, now I wonder why they were taken out?
All this just reminds me of the saying: "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2008)

...


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## lalaland (Mar 22, 2008)

Hi Pablo, how do I know they are wrong about Jesus? Not because my mind thinks so, no. I wouldn't bother throwing my personal opinions around, everything that I've talked about has current and historical evidence that are consistent with each other. Jesus told the world exactly who He is and what He was doing on earth and who sent Him. He said this in the new testament which is made up of eye witness accounts of His life. In the new testament He made references to the old testament. In Lukes letter Jesus says to his disciples, "all things concerning Me written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." And it was. How could all of that happen if it was a load of balony or there was another reason for it or Jesus was just mistaken? Jesus, mistaken?? After everything that He did, are we kidding?

Good old jo blow from jerusalem didn't just jot down some rubbish story or opinion of some man he saw called Jesus and then handed it in to be included in the bible. It was written by kings and prophets and eye witnesses and teachers of the law who experienced God first hand. It was literally written by scholars who were under an extraudinary tradition of perfecting the art of scrolling. If they made one little mistake the whole scroll would be destroyed. The history of it is actually really interesting and I love it coz it helps God feel more real. And how wonderful is it that He even bothered with something tangible like the bible for us to refer to and didn't just leave us high and dry with nothing but our opinions and theories. I think it's wonderful. He loves us so much.


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## lalaland (Mar 22, 2008)

Well, I feel like my last post about the making of the bible sort of summed up what I was called to say so, I hope that helps  
Are there any other people in this forum who can also answer why they believe in the bible? It's the only reason I kept posting coz people asked extra questions about the bible along the way which is great. But all the extra off topic religious or personal debate stuff i just honestly don't care for because it's not relevant and I think it can get in the way for people who want specific answers to specific questions on the topic. so that's why i'm ignoring it. it's pointless to get into it. One of my favourite parts of the bible is where Jesus is taken to king herod and he doesn't say a word to Him. I love that He just stood there and knew that getting into what herod was talking about was not necessary. Sometimes He threw over tables and got angry, sometimes He preached, sometimes He rescued people from death and disease and then sometimes He did the most by doing nothing. Jesus is so great honestly, I can only encourage everyone to learn more about Him from the source that matters most, the bible. Why believe in the bible? Well that would lead you back through my posts. Happy reading! xx And if there's anyone else who wanted to contribute to why they believe in it I would love to read your story.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

The Bible is a literary opiate that extends the tempting offer of Salvation. The price? You have stop looking for meaning in yourself. Sure, you can twist any religion around to make it seem like it encourages self-exploration, but they usually don't. Organized religions are inherently corrupt because they have to compromise in order to attain unity across members. Unfortunately they're outdated. As a society we now have plenty of ways to impose moral behavior and create order. If you're looking for Truth and you need organized religion, try Buddhism. You won't find It, but you might learn something along the way.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2008)

egodeath said:


> If you're looking for Truth and you need organized religion, try Buddhism. You won't find It, but you might learn something along the way.


Buddhism is not an organised religion,infact its not strictly a religion at all.Infact the word "buddhism" was created by the west for conveinience because in the west we seem have the awful need of putting ourselves in man made conceptual boxes.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

Spirit said:


> egodeath said:
> 
> 
> > If you're looking for Truth and you need organized religion, try Buddhism. You won't find It, but you might learn something along the way.
> ...


Debatable. Buddhism is a diverse collection of teachings and beliefs commonly referred to as a religion, although it is less theological than most. There are Buddhist organizations and schools of thought. Maybe not quite as organized as Christianity, but still organized to some degree. Anyways, my point holds.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2008)

I am a "buddhist" to use the lable here for conveinience.In the west buddhism is considered a religion mostly due to the new age commercial market who increased its popularity with silly notions of what nirvana is and uninformed people.There are no Gods in buddhism.Saying that buddhism is a religion because it has schools of thought and organisations is ridiculous.If that was what defined and made something a religion then in that case groups such as green peace and animal rights and god knows what else...psychiatry,neurology,psychology,permiculture,..ALL schools of thought... would be considered religons.Sure people may say its a practice thats practiced-"religiously"- and that is what defines religion, but so are some friggin hobbies such as cooking, are we gonna make that a religion and pray to the stew guru? The word religion means to re-legion ,buddhism has no notions that things are seperate and need reuniting-in buddhism thats considered a wrong veiw or wrong understanding.You can hold your point and youre entitled to that point but untill youve practiced buddhism in any great depth it doesnt really hold much weight.Ive had this debate before a dozen times and its not one I care to get into again, its simply fruitless.Religion or not thats not important really, the message is basically the same throughout all religions, so lets not let it divide us.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

No, you're missing my point, which is not that Buddhism is a religion. That is secondary. If you want to call Buddhism a hobby, lets call it a hobby. I'm just trying to say the Bible is detrimental to personal spiritual growth.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

Mirraim-Webster's Dictionary defines religion as:

1 a: the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

So, yeah, anything and everything can be a religion. Another testament to the uselessness of words.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

egodeath said:


> No, you're missing my point, which is not that Buddhism is a religion. That is secondary. If you want to call Buddhism a hobby, lets call it a hobby. I'm just trying to say the Bible is detrimental to personal spiritual growth.


Yes apologies I realised your main point wasnt whether buddhism is or is not a religion after I posted but I couldnt return to edit-I think the site went down for a while or something......I dont wish to call buddhism a hobbie ,that wasnt my point either.

Its really not that important.Yes words, as beautiful as they are, do tend to subtract from the nature of things.

Take care.


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## SistA HazeL (Aug 10, 2008)

Spirit said:


> thats why Jesus said HE WAS GOD,the incarnation of god,he had found "god" within himself,christians do tend to turn god into an ego thing or person,whereas god is your highest potential......that potential is infinite and immeasurable and actually where god exists as unbounded and immeasurable love ,thats what god is...though its not just ignorant love....its wise and discerning too.


Sorry I have to disagree with some parts there. Jesus did not find God within himself. He is the son of GOD and came down to earth in human form and never boasted that he is God. I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just telling you what I read in the Bible and other different sources and my understanding of Jesus.

I need to do more reading and research before I go on.

However I do respect yours and other people's views and beliefs about Jesus.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

VinCi said:


> Seriously, you believe a book that's outdated 2000 years.
> Lol, glad we don't look for truth in 2000 year old books in the real world, then we'd still believe earth is flat, never fly, kill all homosexuals, lesbians, mentally retarded, mentally ill, disobidient children (aka: adhd sufferers).
> There'd probably b around 0,1% of the population left, what you are really advocating (unaware ofcourse) is Hitler x 1000


Ironic that you would mention that we'd believe the earth was flat if we only looked to the Bible for truth. The Bible actually taught the Earth was round about 300 years before Aristotle first suggested it in the book _On the Heavens_.

Isaiah 40:22
"It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,..."

The word translated ?circle? here is the Hebrew word chuwg which is also translated ?circuit,? or ?compass? (depending on the context). That is, it indicates something spherical, rounded, or arched?not something that is flat or square.

The Bible also does not teach that we should



> kill all homosexuals, lesbians, mentally retarded, mentally ill, disobidient children (aka: adhd sufferers)


Unless you're talking about the Qur'an.


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## SistA HazeL (Aug 10, 2008)

The Bible is TIMELESS and it is the #1 best-seller.


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## SistA HazeL (Aug 10, 2008)

Luis Pasteur, the inventor of pasteurization is a Christian...

I could name others if I could remember...


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

VinCi said:


> Nope, I talk about the Old Testament.
> Sorry but, Pythagoras was the first to put forth the idea the earth was spherical.
> 
> The Hebrew word Chuwg means a flat-circle.
> ...


My mistake about Aristotle. Pythagoras lived between 580 and 490 bc. The Book of Isaiah was written between 701 and 681 B.C.. This still predates Pythagoras by at least 100 years. I will admit that some of your references could be interpreted as giving a false depiction of the earth, but lets examine them carefully.



> The Hebrew word for a sphere like a ball is *Duwr
> *
> 
> He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball (*Duwr*) into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. (Isaiah 22:18)


1754. duwr, dure; from H1752; a circle, ball or pile:--ball, turn, round about.

This word no more inidicates sphericity than the other word. It's also used by Isaiah here-

Is. 29:3 And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee.

Obviously, the soldiers could not camp in the shape of a sphere around the city! Based on this and other usages, this word appears to be making a statement about a circular pattern rather than giving reference to a given shape.



> _Isaiah 11:12
> 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)
> 
> Revelation 7:1
> ...


_

Some will cite this as evidence of a flat, SQUARE earth - which is a little odd, after it is argued so often that a flat, CIRCULAR earth is in mind! But let's look at this word "corners" --

3671. kanaph, kaw-nawf'; from H3670; an edge or extremity; spec. (of a bird or army) a wing, (of a garment or bed-clothing) a flap, (of the earth) a quarter, (of a building) a pinnacle:-- + bird, border, corner, end, feather [-ed], X flying, + (one an-) other, overspreading, X quarters, skirt, X sort, uttermost part, wing ([-ed]).
"Earth" is our familiar word 'erets, so the same constraints apply as above. But what about "kanaph"? It indicates compass points: Note how it emerges elsewhere --

Gen. 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Ex. 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
The word can also refer to clothes:

1 Sam. 15:27 And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent.
...and in a few places, it is translated "ends". But the reference to "four" kanaph, and the application to wings (of birds, cherubim, etc.), along with reference to the specific nations which the Israelities are to return from in the verse previous (Is. 11:11), make it far more likely exegetically that this word indicates compass points.

We should note, however, one often-cited exception - one used by my pal Kornform:

Job 38:12-3 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; That it might take hold of the ends (kanaph) of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
However, "earth" is again that slippery old 'erets - so one cannot say whether it is indeed meant in a global sense here. (Even so, this is manifestly metaphorical: One does not suppose that this suggests that the light itself actually picked up the earth and snapped it around like a towel! We may suggest that the "end" here might refer to the artificial dividing line between night and day.)

But now to a NT cite:

Rev. 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Once again, it is likely that we are dealing with compass points, owing to the reference to the winds. The word here is:

137. gonia, go-nee'-ah; prob. akin to G1119; an angle:--corner, quarter.
This word is used only 9 times in the NT, and it does refer, for example, to street corners (Matt. 6:5) and to cornerstones (Mark 12:10). But the context, the reference to the "four winds", supports the idea of compass points. (And once again, this is a phrase we STILL use, so we cannot really be that critical!)




Job 38:13
13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Jeremiah 16:19
19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

Click to expand...

In each of these, it is supposed, the author is thinking of opposite ends of a flat earth. Let's look at the key words used among these verses.

The word used for "ends" is:

7097. qatseh, kaw-tseh'; or (neg. only) qetseh, kay'-tseh; from H7096; an extremity (used in a great variety of applications and idioms; comp. H7093):-- X after, border, brim, brink, edge, end, [in-] finite, frontier, outmost coast, quarter, shore, (out-) side, X some, ut (-ter-) most (part).
This word has a broad usage throughout the OT. It can signify the termination of a period of time, or of an action. But let's look exclusively at geographic connotations of some sort.

Gen 23:9 That he may give me the cave of Machpelah, which he hath, which is in the end of his field; for as much money as it is worth he shall give it me for a possession of a buryingplace amongst you.
Gen. 47:21 And as for the people, he removed them to cities from one end of the borders of Egypt even to the other end thereof. (Note: "Borders" here is yet another Hebrew word, gebuwl.)
Ex. 25:18-9 18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end:
Josh. 15:5 And the east border was the salt sea, even unto the end of Jordan. And their border in the north quarter was from the bay of the sea at the uttermost part of Jordan:
1 Sam. 9:27 And as they were going down to the end of the city, Samuel said to Saul, Bid the servant pass on before us, (and he passed on,) but stand thou still a while, that I may show thee the word of God.
Another word used for "end" is this one:

657. 'ephec, eh'-fes; from H656; cessation, i.e. an end (espec. of the earth); often used adv. no further; also (like H6466) the ankle (in the dual), as being the extremity of the leg or foot:--ankle, but (only), end, howbeit, less than nothing, nevertheless (where), no, none (beside), not (any, -withstanding), thing of nought, save (-ing), there, uttermost part, want, without (cause).
This word most commonly is translated "nevertheless" - as in this verse:

Num. 13:28 Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak there.
So we have a fairly strong word here, one that seems to favor the skeptical position. But now let's look at the words which come out as "earth". The first is one that we shall have cause to refer to often:

776. 'erets, eh'-rets; from an unused root prob. mean. to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land):-- X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X nations, way, + wilderness, world.
This is the word used to indicate "earth" in Genesis 1:1 and in later parts of Genesis involving creation and the Flood. So, do we have an earth with ends? The answer is, not necessarily. The word is used over 2500 times in the OT, and elsewhere it is used to indicate a limited space, as in these examples:

Gen. 12:10 And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land.
Gen. 13:7 And there was a strife between the herdmen of Abram's cattle and the herdmen of Lot's cattle: and the Canaanite and the Perizzite dwelled then in the land.
Gen. 20:15 And Abimelech said, Behold, my land is before thee: dwell where it pleaseth thee.
Gen. 42:33 And the man, the lord of the country, said unto us, Hereby shall I know that ye are true men; leave one of your brethren here with me, and take food for the famine of your households, and be gone:
1 Sam. 29:11 So David and his men rose up early to depart in the morning, to return into the land of the Philistines. And the Philistines went up to Jezreel.
2 Sam. 24:6 Then they came to Gilead, and to the land of Tahtimhodshi; and they came to Danjaan, and about to Zidon...
So what can be said here? It is far from clear that any of the original verses cited referring to the "ends" of the "earth" are indicating a flat earth with edges. They might be - but they might not be. Ps. 22:27, for example: "All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD, and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee." This is a reference to peoples rather than geography; physical ends of the earth could hardly "remember" anything! Job 28:24 says, "For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven..." - which might seem like a problem, until we consider the context of the verse:

Destruction and death say, We have heard the fame thereof with our ears. God understandeth the way thereof, and he knoweth the place thereof. For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven; To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure. When he made a decree for the rain, and a way for the lightning of the thunder: Then did he see it, and declare it; he prepared it, yea, and searched it out.
We are obviously dealing with poetry here - not a scientific treatise. So the bottom line: It cannot be absolutely asserted that a flat earth is in view here, in any of these verses. One would have to get into the minds of the writers to know for certain that a flat earth is intended. (We might add 1) that we still use the phrase "ends of the earth" today - so that we can hardly criticize the use of the phrase in the Bible!; 2) This last phrase, at any rate, is a quote of Job - in which case, it may be argued that we are simply being told what he believes!)

Now there is a second word that translates as "earth" in some places -- but it only occurs 38 times in the OT:

8398. tebel, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extens. the globe; by impl. its inhabitants; spec. a partic. land, as Babylonia, Pal.:--habitable part, world.
This is used in the Psalms verse in particular, and here:

1 Sam. 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he hath set the world upon them.
This second word carries the implication of the peoples of the earth rather than any sort of reference to geography. Where it is used it certainly cannot be seen as favoring a flat earth.




Matthew 4:8
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Click to expand...

This verse in Matthew by no means implies a flat earth, nor a monstrous mountain large enough to oversee the earth. Indeed, I have always thought that the trip to the mountain was a cheap psychological ploy by Satan -- indeed, given what we know of the honor and shame dialectic of that social world, it fits as the premise of an "honor challenge" by placing Jesus in a pre-eminent position -- and that the showing of the kingdoms was accomplished by means of projecting images of some sort, as on a computer screen! Indeed, this is suggested by the parallel verse in Luke 4:5 -

The devil led him up to a high place, and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world.
However, as anyone who has climbed mountains knows - and the writer of Matthew surely knew, if he lived in the area around Judea, as Matthew did - the higher up you go, the smaller things down below get, by your perspective. So it seems unlikely that (even if he did believe it a flat earth, personally) Matthew's offering is not compatible with a globe. Note that even on a flat earth, a high mountain would be a very poor place to observe the kingdoms of the world "in their glory." Furthermore, if Matthew was implying that a mountain existed from which all the world was visible, then obviously, the mountain would be visible from all parts of the world, and Matthew's reader's would roll over laughing and throw his book in the garbage! It is ludicrous to suggest that Matthew believed such a mountain existed. (The mountain in question was probably Mt. Quarantania, not far from the site where John probably baptized. It commands an incredible view of the Jordan Valley. Monkeys who further wonder who gave this account seem to forget that Jesus was perfectly capable of doing so after the fact to his disciples.)_


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

VinCi said:


> Conjurus, theres no way I'll read so much bible crap... sorry


Fair enough...it's kind of moot anyway when the real debate is creationism vs evolution...which we'll get to in your new topic. I'm done on the forums for now though. We'll continue it later.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2008)

SistA HazeL said:


> Spirit said:
> 
> 
> > thats why Jesus said HE WAS GOD,the incarnation of god,he had found "god" within himself,christians do tend to turn god into an ego thing or person,whereas god is your highest potential......that potential is infinite and immeasurable and actually where god exists as unbounded and immeasurable love ,thats what god is...though its not just ignorant love....its wise and discerning too.
> ...


No need to say sorry for disagreeing Hazel!  , its cool, sure thats just my take on it and you are entitled to yours also.

Carry on, but please, I dont wish to become a part in this debate.


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2009)

^-^


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