# determined to find that magic pill



## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

Hello dper's, I would first like to introduce my self my nick name is the sience guy as this is what I was before DP hit me a year ago. I was studying in a class medicine known as nero endocrinology and was in my 5th year of studys. anyways to make a long story short I smoked this "herble blend" of cough cough synthetic cough canibinoids and here I am.

up until now I have only visited this site occasionaly gathering info and seeing people exprience with this disorder.
and seeing what medicines have been tried and that pretty much all have failed.

this is where my journy began as a human guiny pig to find out exactly which chemicals in the brain are responsible for these horrific feelings of unrealty and detachment from ones self and hopefully reverse them.

Ok here we go

first medication I tried and will probably be no suprise to any of you was an ssri. this was given to me 2 weeks after I got this disorder from a psychitrist who thought I had depression even though I had my doubts at the time that this was depression I did not fully discover what this really was until another two weeks sobare with me here.

Ok so from this medicine I can you I got much worse, it literally increasd almost all of my dp/dr symtoms and even gave me extra side effects on top of that so ssri's fot a big no!

Ok so then my real hunt for a cure begen I ended up serching endlessly through all of my books in in school as my studys can relate to this in many different ways. I serched the internet talked to my professors and other neroscientists.

my next medication of choice was arricept. I chose this because I know acetylcholine has alot to do with memory and in many ways dp/dr effects memory. I also know alzhimers patiants commony see in frames. which is a staple mark for many people with this disorder including me. I did a 3 week run with this stuff and had only minor improvment in thinking abilty and this all. so I discontinued and moved on.

Next I read where low dopamine might be the cause of this as there was study done where they removed the dopamine from a guys system by blocking the absortion of tyramine, the conseqent systoms he decribed were very remenisent of dp/dr.

so I got a precription for adderall a big dopamine boosting stimulent, results: I got about a 50% return in my emotions about a 30 to 40% return in my thinking abilty and clarity and about a 10 to 20% improvment in memory recall. down sides is it DIDN'T last! this effect was very short lived about 4 hours or so followed by a big crash where these same things that improved would then get worse by the same degree if not more for a day or two. the trade was not worth it.

However this led me to explore the dopamine rout further with more theriputic medications.
the next I tryed was an maob inhibiter. for those of you who don't know this medication prevents the break down of dopamine in the brain there by alowing it's effects to last longer. I tryed this one for a good solid month with no results at all, I mean literaly nothing, very disapointing considering how adderall worked to some extent and this did nothing.

ok so my serch for a more theriputic replacment to adderall took me to trying Ldopa something that should directly increase the amount of dopamine in my synaptic vesicals. after 3 weeks on this and no improvement I did a final week with ldopa and an maob inhibiter combine. still no results. frustrated at this point I abandend my dopamine theory and moved on.

next up was a thought of inspiration, I remembered that the ssri made me worse so I looked up why that might be and found out that mcpp a seritonin 5ht2c agonist can actually cause dp/dr. seeing this I imedietly thought well maybe I have to much seritonin at that receptor so I took a medication called agomeltine which is a 5ht2c antagonist.
tryed this one out for 3 weeks and all I got was a little energy boost and a cranky mood. no effects on dp/dr at all. ok back to the drawing board.

Next I thought well it was a canibinoid that got me here in the first place why not take something that's the exact oposite, so I got my hands on some rimonabant and tryed that for 3 weeks. with this I expirenced a 50% improvment in my vision in the aspect of I don't see in frames as much as I did. other then this I had no improvments however I can say to this day my vision has remained improved.

at this point I was stumped for awhile and was going thruogh some killer insomnia. So one night I barrowed a few of my room mates clonidine to help me sleep. Big mistake! it made the weird feeling out of time distortions of my DP worse and you know that feeling where your talking to someone but then forget what you just said it made that sytom much worse too! so then I thought well if an a2 agonist does this what about an a2 antagonist. very happy with the results of this one I tried an herbal supplent called rawulscine, this helped tremendesly with that bad out of time feeling and feeling disconeted while talking to someone symtems. I discovered this by accidend but it was cool I must. I have to still take this supplement daily for it to keep working but so far so good and no side effects thus far.

all this made me think if norepinephrine was more at play in helping me with adderall then the dopamine was but then again I did not get improvment in the same symptoms as I did with adderall so I'm not sure.

So now it's been a year and I have tried many things and still no cure although I think I have discovered some things along the way. I wanted to note that I took atleast a month inbetween all medications I tried to make sure there were no overalp in effects and the others had compleatly cleared my system. I am still determined to find that magic pill only right now I'm taking a break for my body and my mind from the meds and digging in really deep into what changes exactly that canibinoids do nerochemicaly in your brain.

If any one would like to help me with my reserch please feel free to do so. and let me know if you have tried any of these medications and have had simmilar results as I have.

even with my back ground I am still confused about many things such as how ssri's have actually helped some people with this when in combo with benzodiazipines. all reserch I have done and the results on my self point to high seritonin being a bad thing for this disorder but maybe I'm missing something.

I will not give up until I atleast find a treatment for this that will make the symtoms go away by atleast 80% this you can count on.


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

*I was studying in a class medicine known as nero endocrinology*

As a side question, have you been studying neuroendocrine tumors such as carcinoids?

*If any one would like to help me with my reserch please feel free to do so. and let me know if you have tried any of these medications and have had simmilar results as I have*

Absolutely! I've been hoping to find people that will experiment. You have the advantage of greater access to medications.

It would be helpful if you would describe your visual symptoms. There is good info in http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/22388-tracerstrailsghosting-getting-bad-at-times/page__p__197587__fromsearch__1#entry197587 and http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/24844-dolly-zoom-and-dizziness/page__p__214063__fromsearch__1#entry214063.

The medications that help me are Sinemet (levodopa), Wellbutrin SR, and Gabapentin. Also benzodiazepines, Selegiline, Requip, and hydrocodone have been useful.

SSRI's are bad news. Also Effexor and Abilify (which is logical considering what does work) I can tolerate Amitriptyline (which is characteristic of people with dopamine insufficiency such as Parkinson's).

Have done quite a lot of alternative stuff, which seems to be important in making the meds work effective. For example, recently started taking lots of MSM and my visual are going through another session of improvement.

Diagnosis:

Toxic Encephalopathy resulting in Derealization Disorder. Started 3 years ago. The above meds work with this. About 75% better now.

Depersonalization Disorder from abuse history. Whole life. The above meds have no effect however higher doses of Gabapentin or Klonopin (which help anxiety) blunt the 'emotional work' that I must proceed with.

Welcome (of course) and look forward to working with you.


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## whatthehell (Jul 27, 2010)

Not to be negative, but if you make your life about getting better and finding a pill to fix your problem, you will have this problem for a LOOOOOOOOONG TIME. all you are doing is making every aspect of your life about fixing this problem. As for adderal, its for adhd or add, unless you try XR capsules you wont find relief for more than a few hours like you said. Also dexedrine is better than adderall because the comedown is not bad at all. It does the same thing. But for someone like me, who has add and some dr feelings, its going to work better because focusing is my actual problem, and thats the intent of taking dexedrine. Please dont make your day to day routine about finding some miracle pill. They help us, but do not cure us. Exercise, eat healthy, stay off this forum looking for answers all day, and remember that this is anxiety/depression and a thought problem.

Big Gulps.


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## gill (Jul 1, 2010)

> I am still confused about many things such as how ssri's have actually helped some people with this when in combo with benzodiazipines.


Keep in mind that people can respond differently to the same med. 

I'll just also add that I've had more benefit when treating the underlying issues which aggravate DP, rather than the DP itself.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

Visual Dude said:


> *I was studying in a class medicine known as nero endocrinology*
> 
> As a side question, have you been studying neuroendocrine tumors such as carcinoids?
> 
> ...


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

whatthehell said:


> Not to be negative, but if you make your life about getting better and finding a pill to fix your problem, you will have this problem for a LOOOOOOOOONG TIME. all you are doing is making every aspect of your life about fixing this problem. As for adderal, its for adhd or add, unless you try XR capsules you wont find relief for more than a few hours like you said. Also dexedrine is better than adderall because the comedown is not bad at all. It does the same thing. But for someone like me, who has add and some dr feelings, its going to work better because focusing is my actual problem, and thats the intent of taking dexedrine. Please dont make your day to day routine about finding some miracle pill. They help us, but do not cure us. Exercise, eat healthy, stay off this forum looking for answers all day, and remember that this is anxiety/depression and a thought problem.
> 
> Big Gulps.


Wow I never thought I would get a reponce like this. actually I have stayed off of this forum for about 10 months. When I first saw it I only used it to learn more about my condition and the medications people have tried and failed from then I went on my own path of discovery and never looked back until now. Honestly I thought this forum was to depressing and to many people writing there sob storys, this was not heathy for me and is why I decided not to join until now. My reason for joining Now though is that I want the help of the people here in coming up with a cure or atleast a treatment that is effective and reliable. for this I need feed back from others. for too long this dissorder has gone unreqanized by the reserch comunity and I want to put an end to it. I have many of my professors helping me as well as nero scientists. This is not something I just want to give up on I want to help my self and the world of people suffering from this.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Maybe looking for a magic pill is one of the symptoms of your anxiety and is infact your problem. 
I say this because I looked for the magic pill for many years but I did it with supplements and alternative methods but it did me no good, you probably think that I was looking in the wrong place but that is not what I learned, I learned that trying to escape from your problem only increases your suffering because you are trying to get away from it, you are rejecting it and fighting it which only creates stress, which is why almost everyone who has recovered says you have to stop fighting and accept it.

Also meds aren't the only ways to change your brain chemicals, getting a hug from a loved one produces more oxycontin than most meds can give you, going for a walk in the woods releases serotonin, regular exercise balances all sorts of chemicals, I have seen studies where meditation has caused permanent brain changes, reduced cortisol levels and normalised brain waves. I have even seen studies where looking after a dog has normalised peoples brain chemicals and one study which showed driving a sports car improved testosterone and assertiveness in people lol, so all I'm saying is you can't ignore the effect your general life has on the chemicals in your brain, everything you do has an effect.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

Pablo said:


> Maybe looking for a magic pill is one of the symptoms of your anxiety and is infact your problem.
> I say this because I looked for the magic pill for many years but I did it with supplements and alternative methods but it did me no good, you probably think that I was looking in the wrong place but that is not what I learned, I learned that trying to escape from your problem only increases your suffering because you are trying to get away from it, you are rejecting it and fighting it which only creates stress, which is why almost everyone who has recovered says you have to stop fighting and accept it.
> 
> Also meds aren't the only ways to change your brain chemicals, getting a hug from a loved one produces more oxycontin than most meds can give you, going for a walk in the woods releases serotonin, regular exercise balances all sorts of chemicals, I have seen studies where meditation has caused permanent brain changes, reduced cortisol levels and normalised brain waves. I have even seen studies where looking after a dog has normalised peoples brain chemicals and one study which showed driving a sports car improved testosterone and assertiveness in people lol, so all I'm saying is you can't ignore the effect your general life has on the chemicals in your brain, everything you do has an effect.


Actually I have no anxiety symtoms, I did for the first month or so when I got this but once I learnd what it was I quickly calmed my self and my anxiety left me. I think what helped me is that I'm a very logical person I know what I'm expierencing is just runaway chemical inbalences and altered brain metabolism, I know that this will pass in time and I know this is just the result of me smoking some stuff that didn't agree with my chemical make up.

This does not make me want to stop from finding out exactly what this imbalence is though, the chemicals responsible, receptors responsible ext. I am a man of science and medicine and I feel I owe it to my self and the world to find something that can take this away for people faster then tradinal therpy.

I agree with you many life style changes can improve your chemical balence in your brain, I got over some pretty bad depression in the past doing just that no medicine at all. But it would seem this disorder is more difficult it apears that it just lingures and goes on despite the fact I do not have any anxity fuling it. I know I'm not the only one that is like this either there's many that say they have calmed there anxity to zero and yet this still persits.

I didn't even have a panic attack from the stuff I smoked, it was just as if some of the effects of the high just never went away you know?

Much investigation is needed on how thc and synthetic canabinoids effects the brain.


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

Scienceguy, when you took ldopa did you by chance administer it with an ldopa decarboxilase inhibitor? If not then the ldopa would have simply converted to dopamine in the peripheral nervous system and have shown no benefit. It requires the inhibitor to reach the CNS before it converts. If you're interested I've done some work in the same area with a more natural approach with exceptional results. There is a post in the alternative remedies and therapies section titled read this if you want to recover. Myself and many others have benefitted anywhere from some improvement to complete recovery from the supplements listed.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

Tommygunz said:


> Scienceguy, when you took ldopa did you by chance administer it with an ldopa decarboxilase inhibitor? If not then the ldopa would have simply converted to dopamine in the peripheral nervous system and have shown no benefit. It requires the inhibitor to reach the CNS before it converts. If you're interested I've done some work in the same area with a more natural approach with exceptional results. There is a post in the alternative remedies and therapies section titled read this if you want to recover. Myself and many others have benefitted anywhere from some improvement to complete recovery from the supplements listed.


Thanks Tommy, Yes I did take carbidopa with it, I see you know alot about some medications and there modes of action and metabolism in the body. perhaps you could help me with my reserch. 
I did see this post awhile ago but I could not make a direct link between any of your suplements and neurochemicals. I do know the vitemin b's play a role in producing certain neurochemicals and peptides, however the average american is not vitmin b deficient, so this should not be the problem. as for ginkobiloba I used to reserch this one as I was somewhat interested in old asian remidies for mental sharpness, kind of help thouse long nights of studying in the college you know. there is however many conflicting studys as to whether this herble supplement really works or not and no direct mechnism of action was discovered as far as I know.


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

Good to know, you should check out the post again though. It has been revised multiple times and has a completely new list of supps and is dramatically more effective than the original formula. It targets both acetylcholine and dopamine directly now. Before it was mainly aimed at serotonin. Fortunately I have expanded my knowledge of psychology and physiology ten fold since the beginning. I would be happy to help you in your search as best I can.


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## UniversalShape1 (Nov 22, 2010)

There is no "magic" pill, you could perform drug trials on yourself using different chemicals to understand your own neuro-chemistry by the reaction it has on your psyche but each individual has his/her own neuro chemistry. The best thing you can do is understand your own specific traits and how you could improve on them rather than let them drag you down. It's each person's road there is no easy way out so don't hold your breath waiting for a magic pill to fly along.


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

*Hydrocodone, now that's an interesting one as I was recently reading that opiate receptor antagonists might be of benfit for this disorder. however hydrocodone is an agonist of I'm not mistaken.*

Hydrocodone is an opioid.

As you continue to study, you will find a repeating theme involving dopamine, GABA, opioid and acetylcholine receptors. These are the major players in perception. These are also heavily affected by nearly all recreational drugs.

*Can you please tell me in detail the benfints from these drugs in treating your symtoms, the levodopa, wellbutrin, selgline ect?*

The full details are quite lengthy and in numerous posts. However&#8230;

Sinemet, Wellbutrin, Requip and Selegiline all help visual symptoms. Sinemet is the strongest (most effective) but Wellbutrin was surprisingly effective but until this month have had problems with dosages greater then 75 mg / day. Sinemet also greatly improves pain response. And all improve sexual performance. Requip was more instructive than practical as visual symptoms shift around according to the amount in the blood - the short half-life is a problem and the XL is too strong. Curiously, Sinemet CR is less effective the regular Sinemet. Also, despite its very short half-life (45 min) is behaves like charging a battery and does not have the 'shifting' problems of the other meds. The effect of taking Sinemet extends several weeks after discontinuing.

Gabapentin treated pain in the peripheral vision, its hypersensitivity to motion, and photophobia. It is useful to reduce the excitotoxicity that is characteristic of all brain injuries.

*I'm glad to hear someone els agree with me about the ssri's I keep getting conflicting data on whether seritonin is bad or good for this. some of my next work will involve gathering a detailed map of where the seritonon receptors are located in the brain and cross referenceing it with the areas of the brain that are high lighted in DP/DR. This will take some time though and a considerable amount of reserch and sources to complete the data, but I believe it is nesasary as since litteraly all of my symtems got worse from an ssri I'm thinking atleast some of the symtoms must get better with the proper antagonists. however I don't want to fly blindy taking just any med much reserch must be done first!*

You will find that there is somewhat a see-saw relationship between dopamine and serotonin - though not directly. Also, some receptor sites respond to both so that if one is occupied with serotonin, there is no room for dopamine. Furthermore, as a rare side-effect, SSRIs can cause Parkinsonism, though not as prominent as with anti-psychotics.

You will find that you can partially compensate for increasing serotonin by increasing dopamine. But this is limited.

*by MSM do you mean methyl sulfonyl methane? If so I thought this was a sulfer compund that was used in treating joint pain, what use could it have in the visual symtoms of DR?*

Yes, yes, and MSM can assist in nerve repair. It is also useful for detoxification.

*Congradualations this is a big Improvment and something to be proud of!*

Thank you for the encouragement.

*By Encephalopathy do you mean of liver? I know much about mental disorders steming from liver dyfuction I can help you alot on this if this is your case.*

No - not the liver. The Brain: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encephalopathy and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_encephalopathy.

Both Western and Eastern medicine know that liver and kidney functions are of prime importance in preventing/managing neurotoxicity. In my case the damage is through the nose, which sadly there is no blood-brain barrier. The toxin probably has something to do with butyl rubber.

Nevertheless, I would be interested in the information you have about mental disorders steming from liver dysfunction.

*I am confused as to what has caused your DP, please explain more.*

By definition, the main cause of Depersonalization Disorder has been a history of child abuse. Of course these days many seem to be getting it from recreational drugs. My case is 'traditional' DP. I was abused when 4 years old. This was followed by significant emotional neglect the remaining years. The unfortunate result is improper emotional development, particularly relationships and intimacy. Also a heightened fear response and a tendency to blame oneself for everything that goes on. This is being resolved by 'emotional' work and medication is not useful for this.

Hope this is helpful.

What were your visual symptoms? motion? contract? depth perception?

Any non-visual symptoms?


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

Pablo said:


> Maybe looking for a magic pill is one of the symptoms of your anxiety and is infact your problem.
> I say this because I looked for the magic pill for many years but I did it with supplements and alternative methods but it did me no good, you probably think that I was looking in the wrong place but that is not what I learned, I learned that trying to escape from your problem only increases your suffering because you are trying to get away from it, you are rejecting it and fighting it which only creates stress, which is why almost everyone who has recovered says you have to stop fighting and accept it.
> 
> Also meds aren't the only ways to change your brain chemicals, getting a hug from a loved one produces more oxycontin than most meds can give you, going for a walk in the woods releases serotonin, regular exercise balances all sorts of chemicals, I have seen studies where meditation has caused permanent brain changes, reduced cortisol levels and normalised brain waves. I have even seen studies where looking after a dog has normalised peoples brain chemicals and one study which showed driving a sports car improved testosterone and assertiveness in people lol, so all I'm saying is you can't ignore the effect your general life has on the chemicals in your brain, everything you do has an effect.


As far as my DP goes - medication are of no value.

As far as my DR goes - it is linked to a specific chemical exposure. It involves metabolic damage which required some heavy duty meds to instigate repair.

I enjoy your posts encouraging a holistic approach. I am certain that in my case the medications would not have been near as useful without all the 'alternative' stuff that I did. Also many other problems from the chemical exposure were resolved by nutrition alone before every trying medication - include peripheral neuropathy.

The body (brain) must have sufficient building material to maintain and repair. Furthermore when there is a problem, the nutrient requirements go through the roof (critical care nutrition). Also the brain must be 'stimulated' in all the ways that we seek to be - such as meditation, hugs, and interacting with the dog. Unless these things are done, it is problematic to get well. We must try to live well to be well.


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## flat (Jun 18, 2006)

My dp was not caused by drugs. It hit me instantly at the peak of a huge emotional panic attack. It has been constant ever since. I've tried an anti-psychotic, older and newer anti-depressants, and a benzodiazepine. Nothing helped. Just lots of unpleasant side effects. Believe it or not the only times my dp/dr abruptly left me was when I just started to get high from smoking pot and when I tried the supplement SAM-e. Unfortunately it was very brief (a few seconds) and I couldn't replicate it again. The pot thing was maybe cuz it started to relax me enuff to let go the dp/dr at that certain point of intoxication, but probably as the high continued it's therapeutic effect was gone. SAM-e increases serotonin but I don't know why it never worked again even though I kept taking it and even increased the dosage.

My last doctor said that maybe I have a mild form of schizophrenia with just the negative symptoms (which is a lot like the symptoms of dp/dr) and no positive symptoms (like paranoia or delusions). It may be, since I have a pretty strange uncle haha. Then again, it could just be treatment resistant depression (which one doctor was treating me for)since I do feel depressed at times but not all the time.

But if you are curious, I found out that certain supplements have helped the negative symptoms of schizophrenia in some medical studies. They are PREGNENOLONE and HUPERAZINE-A. Both can be bought at vitamin stores or in combination with other supplements in health stores. I bought pregnenolone at Vitamin World and the huperazine-A at a Wegman's grocery store in the health section. But to date I have not taken them cuz I am now scared of the potential side effects. On the bottle it warns against taking them if you have high blood pressure, which I do have. I've even taken meds for my blood pressure which I've stopped cuz of the awful side effects and have been trying to lower my blood pressure naturally by losing weight and exercising. But it's still pretty high.

So if you are curious, PLEASE try these two supplements that I have mentioned above if you are curious about them. I am really curious what effect they might have on dp/dr.


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## Dyna (May 13, 2010)

Visual Dude said:


> As far as my DR goes - it is linked to a specific chemical exposure. It involves metabolic damage which required some heavy duty meds to instigate repair.


Hi Visual Dude, Can you tell me more about 'chemical exposure' relating to your DR. I believe my DR was brought on by a single use of weed. And what do you mean re some heavy duty meds t instiagte repair? Thanks, Dyna


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

Dyna said:


> Hi Visual Dude, Can you tell me more about 'chemical exposure' relating to your DR. I believe my DR was brought on by a single use of weed. And what do you mean re some heavy duty meds t instiagte repair? Thanks, Dyna


*Can you tell me more about 'chemical exposure' relating to your DR*

Much is in the topic http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/22388-tracerstrailsghosting-getting-bad-at-times/page__p__197587__fromsearch__1#entry197587

But to be brief, my damage comes from a new building. A lot people that went to the building felt sick but only a couple people have noticeable neurological damage from it.

It is similar to a case the EPA had in the late 1980's. They remodeled/built some buildings and hundreds of people got sick from the carpet - 200 went to the emergency room the first week. In the end a number of people ended up on permanent disability. They studied the problem for two years but couldn't really understand what happened. In the end they banned used of butyl rubber carpet from being used in any of their buildings (but did not ban it from the market).

*heavy duty meds to instigate repair*

I tried natural things for over a year before an herbalist told me to check out dopamine meds. Most medications are strong (thus restricted) and there are always risks involved. Nevertheless they saved my bacon (or are _saving_). Surprising results began within hours (details in above link).

So on this forum every time someone is experiencing visual symptoms similar to mine, I encourage them to check this out use of such medications.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

Hydrocodone is an opioid. Yes I know that it's an opiod but I am confused as to how this could help as I have read sveral study where opiod antagonist as in they block the actions of opiods might actually cure this disorder.

pretty soon I was going to try to get my hands on one called naloxone and give it a shot but if your having good results from taking hydrocodone, I'm going to be werry of trying it.

The full details are quite lengthy and in numerous posts. However&#8230;

Sinemet, Wellbutrin, Requip and Selegiline all help visual symptoms. Sinemet is the strongest (most effective) but Wellbutrin was surprisingly effective but until this month have had problems with dosages greater then 75 mg / day. Sinemet also greatly improves pain response. And all improve sexual performance. Requip was more instructive than practical as visual symptoms shift around according to the amount in the blood - the short half-life is a problem and the XL is too strong. Curiously, Sinemet CR is less effective the regular Sinemet. Also, despite its very short half-life (45 min) is behaves like charging a battery and does not have the 'shifting' problems of the other meds. The effect of taking Sinemet extends several weeks after discontinuing.

Well I did try the Sinemet but with no results good or bad. I could have just been taking water it was so disappointing.

Gabapentin treated pain in the peripheral vision, its hypersensitivity to motion, and photophobia. It is useful to reduce the excitotoxicity that is characteristic of all brain injuries.

expain the pain you have in your periphrial vision more to me, I don't believe I have this symtom.

You will find that there is somewhat a see-saw relationship between dopamine and serotonin - though not directly. Also, some receptor sites respond to both so that if one is occupied with serotonin, there is no room for dopamine. Furthermore, as a rare side-effect, SSRIs can cause Parkinsonism, though not as prominent as with anti-psychotics.

Yes I'm all too aware of that. many complaints with ssri's is even though they may treat a persons depresion in the sense that there sadness goes away they tend to lost there will and drive for life. in essence they become content but have no motivation. Or it takes away there sex drive or both. I was not aware they could cause parkinsinim but it doesn't suprise see as one of my side effects I had while on thouse was shake imared movment in my arms. Luckly all side effects went away after a month of disconuation.

I blame these unwanted side effects primarily on the 5ht2a and 5ht2c receptor types as they are primarily reponsible for seritonin's dopamine lowering effect but there could be other posible sites of action.

You will find that you can partially compensate for increasing serotonin by increasing dopamine. But this is limited.

yes, and MSM can assist in nerve repair. It is also useful for detoxification.

*Congradualations this is a big Improvment and something to be proud of!*

Thank you for the encouragement.

*By Encephalopathy do you mean of liver? I know much about mental disorders steming from liver dyfuction I can help you alot on this if this is your case.*

No - not the liver. The Brain: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encephalopathy and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_encephalopathy.

Both Western and Eastern medicine know that liver and kidney functions are of prime importance in preventing/managing neurotoxicity. In my case the damage is through the nose, which sadly there is no blood-brain barrier. The toxin probably has something to do with butyl rubber.

I know that ruber can have nero toxic effect when it's burning and vapors of it are inhaled but your was not of fire.

Nevertheless, I would be interested in the information you have about mental disorders steming from liver dysfunction.

Well in short the Liver is imortent in clearing all toxins from the body if these toxins build up they can cause MANY problems in the body and the brain this includes depression. decreased focus and mental clerity, symtoms of dementia, ADD, sleep disorders and the list goes on If you want to know the livers role in one of these disorders specifally, just let me know as it can get pretty tachnical and will involve an entirerly new thred devoted to it.

*I am confused as to what has caused your DP, please explain more.*

By definition, the main cause of Depersonalization Disorder has been a history of child abuse. Of course these days many seem to be getting it from recreational drugs. My case is 'traditional' DP. I was abused when 4 years old. This was followed by significant emotional neglect the remaining years. The unfortunate result is improper emotional development, particularly relationships and intimacy. Also a heightened fear response and a tendency to blame oneself for everything that goes on. This is being resolved by 'emotional' work and medication is not useful for this.

Hope this is helpful. Yes this helps my reserch alot thank you.

What were your visual symptoms? motion? contract? depth perception?

I do have a little problem with depth percetion but this has much improved from the begining however my biggest issues now is that I see in frames and flouresent light really bothers me. by seeing in frames I mean I see the world in still frame images instead of fluid montion and my sensitivity to flouresent light I mean when under this type of light this just very strange and surreal.

What are your vision problems specifically and in what aspects are they helped by your medication?

Any non-visual symptoms?

Yes many, I have almost no emotion anymore, it's much harder for me to think or remember things I did just a few hours ago and if something happend a few days ago it's almost imposible for to remember anything. I also have a decreasd awareness of body's location in space at any one given time and places and people I once knew somehow feel Odly unfamiliar to me.

[/quote]


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

Tommygunz said:


> Good to know, you should check out the post again though. It has been revised multiple times and has a completely new list of supps and is dramatically more effective than the original formula. It targets both acetylcholine and dopamine directly now. Before it was mainly aimed at serotonin. Fortunately I have expanded my knowledge of psychology and physiology ten fold since the beginning. I would be happy to help you in your search as best I can.


Very interesting, you have changed your formula from what I saw a few months ago. So what promted you to change it when you said you already cured your self with the old version? Also did you get my PM? I was wondering what reserch led you in the direction that this was dopamine deficiency. 
Also I read your post about this being part of the fight or flight responce but do you really believe that? I mean in the begining of the whole thing perhaps but sertainly not after weeks/months/years. The fight or flight response entails very specifin actions in the body raised heart rate, bloot presure, increast streanth and resperation as well as very specific hormonal changes none of which of these are presant in this disorder. you also say in your post an increasd awareness of the world but if anything I would say this is a decreased awareness of the things around you.


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## TheStarter (Oct 19, 2010)

My mood goes up by reading threads like this, showing that supplements CAN have effect.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

Don Steffa said:


> My mood goes up by reading threads like this, showing that supplements CAN have effect.


Yes there are definetly meds and supplements that can help this it's just a matter of pinning down which ones do. it's my beliefe that this is just a very complex chemical imbalence and will probably require the action of several agonists and antagonists to get that balence just right again. There is hope and I, along with a couple of nero scientists are working on it.


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

scienceguy said:


> Yes there are definetly meds and supplements that can help this it's just a matter of pinning down which ones do. it's my beliefe that this is just a very complex chemical imbalence and will probably require the action of several agonists and antagonists to get that balence just right again. There is hope and I, along with a couple of nero scientists are working on it.


*very complex chemical imbalence and will probably require the action of several agonists and antagonists*

Yes I agree. It will probably be a layered protocol and require tailoring to the individual - which always makes it more difficult for physicians to practice. (Not very 'reductionism')

Still it is possible for you to find a useful methodology. Having yourself as a 'guinea pig' is very helpful toward reaching such a goal.


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

*Hydrocodone* I've used this for migraines - particularly ones caused by trying Effexor. In principle the brain doesn't feel pain but otherwise when it is injured it has the same physiological responses and needs as the body.

*Well I did try the Sinemet but with no results good or bad. I could have just been taking water it was so disappointing.*

It is interesting that you had no response providing 'fuel' for the dopamine pathways. Therefore other mechanisms are involved. What was your trial dosage?

*expain the pain you have in your periphrial vision more to me, I don't believe I have this symtom.*

Please review these topics http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/22388-tracerstrailsghosting-getting-bad-at-times/page__p__197587__fromsearch__1#entry197587 and http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/24844-dolly-zoom-and-dizziness/page__p__214063__fromsearch__1#entry214063.

I realize that these are lengthy but they describe a lot of details about this and other visual symptoms. You will greatly benefit.

*Yes I'm all too aware of that. many complaints with ssri's is even though they may treat a persons depresion in the sense that there sadness goes away they tend to lost there will and drive for life. in essence they become content but have no motivation. Or it takes away there sex drive or both. I was not aware they could cause parkinsinim but it doesn't suprise see as one of my side effects I had while on thouse was shake imared movment in my arms. Luckly all side effects went away after a month of disconuation.*

Serotonin by design is calming and depersonalizing. It is highest at bedtime. Therefore its use in DP would normally be limited to comorbid problems. Still, some here feel it has helped them.

*I know that ruber can have nero toxic effect when it's burning and vapors of it are inhaled but your was not of fire.*

No fire but an Environmental Hygienist told me he has seen these reactions on newly poured cement floors - cement 'cures' for decades but rapidly in the first few weeks. This reaction (with rubber backed carpet) causes neuro-toxic compounds. Of course it could simply have been a defective batch of carpet.

You highlight the dilemma of my life now. It is not just achieving brain repair. It is avoiding further injury. Butyl rubber is a fuel additive in gasoline and diesel. Internal combustion engines burn (fire). I get further brain injury when exposed to motor fumes especially diesel. How does one avoid this in an industrialize country? And how does one make a living when confined to their home? Especially with fatigue that limits hours of productivity?

*Any non-visual symptoms?

Yes many, I have almost no emotion anymore, it's much harder for me to think or remember things I did just a few hours ago and if something happend a few days ago it's almost imposible for to remember anything. I also have a decreasd awareness of body's location in space at any one given time and places and people I once knew somehow feel Odly unfamiliar to me.*

This has been very different for me - almost entirely the 5 senses but not reasoning and feeling. In order of severity it has been: visual problem (contrast, depth, pain, 'low frame rate'), sense of smell reduced, hearing (ringing, pitch perception issues), peripheral nerve damage (finger tips numb on one hand), executive function problems (decision making, confusion), mild tremor (other hand).

The ability to feel emotions did not change. While I fatigue quickly, my thinking and memory are excellent. Perception of time is good. I do have a very low stress tolerance level.

So it is clear that, despite some similar visual symptoms, our conditions are different. Nevertheless, we have lots to learn from each other. For your studies, my condition most closely resembles the model for Parkinsonism from toxic exposure.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

Visual Dude said:


> *very complex chemical imbalence and will probably require the action of several agonists and antagonists*
> 
> Yes I agree. It will probably be a layered protocol and require tailoring to the individual - which always makes it more difficult for physicians to practice. (Not very 'reductionism')
> 
> Still it is possible for you to find a useful methodology. Having yourself as a 'guinea pig' is very helpful toward reaching such a goal.


LOL yes this is true I'll either find the cure or die trying hahaha. but seirusly there are only so many recetors in the brain and narowing it down by brain region makes it less and then you arm your self with the knowlege of what each of these chemicals is supposed to do and you get to the point where it's something that can be achieved. it's still difficult and complicated I know don't get me wrong but giveing it a 6 months to a couple years of reserch depending, I see no reason why this can't be figued out. 
Honestly the problem with all of these mental disorders still persisting today is doctors for one don't step out of there box and try alternative medicines/ suplements and 2 they don't practice individual health care.
forexample, I don't know how many times I've read the guy that was suffering with depression for years and ssris did nothing for him or maybe even made him worse but then he took dopamine raising meds and it was suddenly liffted.
sometimes dr's don't realize that there's different kinds of depression, some seritonin based some dopamine based some a combo of both. And this is something that has been reserched far more then any other mental dissorder and they still get it wrong sometimes. it's ignorence like this that profounds me. 
But yes the cure is out there, this a complicated one but nothing is incurable. My guess is that there would already be a treatment for this that works on some 60 to 70% of the suffers by now if only this disorder was more reconized and reserched.
We will get there though!


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

scienceguy said:


> LOL yes this is true I'll either find the cure or die trying hahaha. but seirusly there are only so many recetors in the brain and narowing it down by brain region makes it less and then you arm your self with the knowlege of what each of these chemicals is supposed to do and you get to the point where it's something that can be achieved. it's still difficult and complicated I know don't get me wrong but giveing it a 6 months to a couple years of reserch depending, I see no reason why this can't be figued out.
> Honestly the problem with all of these mental disorders still persisting today is doctors for one don't step out of there box and try alternative medicines/ suplements and 2 they don't practice individual health care.
> forexample, I don't know how many times I've read the guy that was suffering with depression for years and ssris did nothing for him or maybe even made him worse but then he took dopamine raising meds and it was suddenly liffted.
> sometimes dr's don't realize that there's different kinds of depression, some seritonin based some dopamine based some a combo of both. And this is something that has been reserched far more then any other mental dissorder and they still get it wrong sometimes. it's ignorence like this that profounds me.
> ...


I very much agree. Time, money and fear of lawsuits greatly limits doctors in this country (USA). There is good stuff available but it takes time to find doctors that help. I think a lot of people here can be helped. It is like a combination lock - a sequence - in resolving this. Also, time and good health practices make for repair. Much help came from a 'Master Healer' with accupucture treatment. I cannot say it was just dopamine meds that worked as much was done prior (with varied results)


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

Visual Dude said:


> *Hydrocodone* I've used this for migraines - particularly ones caused by trying Effexor. In principle the brain doesn't feel pain but otherwise when it is injured it has the same physiological responses and needs as the body.
> 
> *Well I did try the Sinemet but with no results good or bad. I could have just been taking water it was so disappointing.*
> 
> ...


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

*moving to the mountains or country side where it's less industrialized.*

I do live rural, which is mandatory. However even going to the grocery store is problematic. Never realized how many diesel vehicles there are - delivery vans, pickups, tractors, 18-wheelers... Also in the 'mountains' there are snowmobiles, ATVs, motor boats, weed-wackers, etc (two-cycle engines). It would be nice to live with the Llamas in South America.

*BDNF*

This is an interesting compound. I have had concerns about the discovery the Gabapentin tends to inhibit the formation of new synapses. I would have thought that brain repair would require new formations. Yet in epilepsy this seems desired. I take it because of excess brain activity (pre-epilepsy?, semi-epilepsy?). I'm down to 600mg/day from 1800mg/day. Probably it will take another year or two if all goes well (the battle all started 4 years ago).

Do you have any particular supplements in mind?


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## shogun (May 15, 2010)

I've been doing a fair bit of research into this aswell and i'm founding out more and more everyday.

I've mainly been focusing on the opioid receptors and NMDA receptors cause the main drugs (dissociatives) that induce DP/DR have an effect on both systems.

A receptor thats been highlighted to me from another member on this board is the kappa opioid receptor. Salvia a strong dissociative drug is known to be a kappa agonist. Other drugs like ketamine, DXM and PCP which are known for their dissociative effects while being NMDA antagonists are also opiod agonists. This falls in line with the naloxone test that was done in russia http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11448093

Just a quick search of thc and opioid and this came up on wikipedia


> In addition, it has been shown that cannabinoids, through an unknown mechanism, activate endogenous opioid pathways involving the μ1 opioid receptor,


I know LSD causes DP aswell but nothing is coming up on that activating the opioid system though.

But the hypothesis about DP being caused by a dysregulation of the bodies opiate system is starting to make more and more sense. It also explains why people with depression and anxiety get DP/DR as one of their symptoms aswell. The body pumps out stress hormones in result to prolonged stress and the endogenous opiate system kicks in.

Now all i need to do is find opiate antagonist supplements to try and see how that goes.


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## gill (Jul 1, 2010)

the best treatment for dp is to find things that help me obsess less about dp, which just perpetuates it and intensifies it.


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

@ scienceguy. After it took so long for me to recover and others only seeing mild improvement I was determined to make it better, stronger and more direct. I was kinda pussyfooting it a little bit in the beginning because I was fairly apprehensive about advocating things to others.

I think in DP that the fight or flight response is triggered and instigates the state of DP. However since most of us are introspective, analytical, philosopher types we focus on the new state of mind and make it our primary landscape. So even though the fight or flight response ends, we have replaced our primary state of mind so the state remains. The reason I say we are hyper aware is because we are so aware we cannot process all of the info our minds are picking up. For example our vision. We are so over aware of our sight that it seems fuzzy, when in reality our brain is so over focused that it is picking up the pixelation in our vision. Thus creating microscopic divisions between pixels that look like a fuzz or invisible wall when looking through our whole field of vision. So even though it seems like our vision is inhibited it's actually over exaggerated. To a point where it's too much to take in.

With the dopamine, I had always suspected it was the culprit but had nothing to back it up accept personal experience until I found a study done where they lowered a mans dopamine and he exhibited nearly every symptom of DP. Even down to minor details like eye twitching and fearing it wouldnt go away. Even simple things like feeling normal when drunk are a giveaway that low dopamine has something to do with it, considering alcohol raises dopamine while drunk and it plumits when you sober up. That's why DP is so much worse after drinking.


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## gill (Jul 1, 2010)

nm


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

mmafighter said:


> I've been doing a fair bit of research into this aswell and i'm founding out more and more everyday.
> 
> I've mainly been focusing on the opioid receptors and NMDA receptors cause the main drugs (dissociatives) that induce DP/DR have an effect on both systems.
> 
> ...


I too have come accross this reserch and believe it MIGHT be the key. I will hopefully be trying naloxone or some other antagonists. good luck finding an "opiate antagonist supplement" though I don't think it exists in nature lol, but I could be wrong.

As for the NMDA this is another interesting one because not only does ketamine, DXM and PCP block this but through unknown pathways so does THC. very very interesting. keep up the reserch!

It's to soon to tell right now but perhaps what is needed is n-methyl-d-aspartate to end this nightmare.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

Tommygunz said:


> @ scienceguy. After it took so long for me to recover and others only seeing mild improvement I was determined to make it better, stronger and more direct. I was kinda pussyfooting it a little bit in the beginning because I was fairly apprehensive about advocating things to others.
> 
> I think in DP that the fight or flight response is triggered and instigates the state of DP. However since most of us are introspective, analytical, philosopher types we focus on the new state of mind and make it our primary landscape. So even though the fight or flight response ends, we have replaced our primary state of mind so the state remains. The reason I say we are hyper aware is because we are so aware we cannot process all of the info our minds are picking up. For example our vision. We are so over aware of our sight that it seems fuzzy, when in reality our brain is so over focused that it is picking up the pixelation in our vision. Thus creating microscopic divisions between pixels that look like a fuzz or invisible wall when looking through our whole field of vision. So even though it seems like our vision is inhibited it's actually over exaggerated. To a point where it's too much to take in.
> 
> ...


I to get a some what improvment when being drunk but I always thought it was more do to the GABA like effects of the alcohol but yes dopamine may also be a player. I just wished I had got better results from my ldopa experment to know for sure. 
Another thing that sugests dopamine is that it's lowered during anxiety and the 5ht2c agonist MCPP has caused DP in people this nasty seritonin receptor is responsible for alot of ssri's side effects and guess what it's main mode action is?.....to reduce dopamine transmision!


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## shogun (May 15, 2010)

gill said:


> the best treatment for dp is to find things that help me obsess about dp, which just perpetuates it and intensifies it.


I believe this a good method, i find my dp/dr is related to my existential obsessions, aswell as obsessions about forming a split personality.

But i'm often times left with a question in my head, do i have dp/dr cause of my obsessions, or do i have my obsessions because i have an unrelenting feeling of DP/DR. The more i suffer from it the more i think the latter.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

mmafighter said:


> I believe this a good method, i find my dp/dr is related to my existential obsessions, aswell as obsessions about forming a split personality.
> 
> But i'm often times left with a question in my head, do i have dp/dr cause of my obsessions, or do i have my obsessions because i have an unrelenting feeling of DP/DR. The more i suffer from it the more i think the latter.


The thing you have to rmember is that DP can exist on it's own with out anything propetuating it. It is in and of it self a mental disorder. This is definetly the case with me as I have no, depression, OCD or anxiety. I used to have anxiety for about the first month or two with this and I have to admit it made my DP worse but I can honestly say I have over come the anxiety 100% but the DP still persits.


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## shogun (May 15, 2010)

scienceguy said:


> The thing you have to rmember is that DP can exist on it's own with out anything propetuating it.


That is so true aswell.

This mind over matter stuff is good for coping but all you're doing is not accepting that something biologically in the brain has gone wrong. Hopefully in the next decade we can isolate the part of the brain and the receptors involved in DP/DR so we can get a cure for this to end needless suffering.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

mmafighter said:


> That is so true aswell.
> 
> This mind over matter stuff is good for coping but all you're doing is not accepting that something biologically in the brain has gone wrong. Hopefully in the next decade we can isolate the part of the brain and the receptors involved in DP/DR so we can get a cure for this to end needless suffering.


That's exactly what I'm working on please, review my post titled "parts of the brain in DP" under the reserch thread, there I will be adding all receptor types known to exist in brain areas that have been high lighted in this dissorder.


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## UniversalShape1 (Nov 22, 2010)

I believe dp/dr is a direct result of highly elevated levels of Norepinephrine and Epinephrine resulting in the minds dissociation from the body and it's environment or whichever it views as a threat from the fight or flight response. Seeing how most people's dp/dr result from Panic Attacks/Marijuana Smoke and suffers usually have had coexisting disorders such as Depression, OCD, Anxiety all of which are connected to low levels of Serotonin. Most people live in this state of anxiety and fear everywhere they go mostly because they haven't fully adapted themselves to their environment and so their body feels as if there is some sort of threat either from a social situation or some irrational fear based thought loops. Anyways in the old days man used to live in the wild and if a bear would come into his cave he would either fight or flee from the external real world threat. Now what if the threat wasn't really real, the threat was just coming from your own irrational mind and from your own body's tension with connecting to these thoughts. This is a panic attack and usually DP/DR gets way worst after panic attacks. You're trying to escape the threat from which their is no escaping because you are the threat and your own mind is feedings feelings of doom, death, insanity etc constantly perpetuating a threat that which only exists in one's own mind.

I believe the reason why people get these panic attacks while using marijuana is because if you have poor serotonin levels which are responsible for feelings of love and accentuating human emotion. Your body is automatically going to produce higher levels of stress/adrenaline/fear to replace your emptiness with some other force. Only thing that closely matches forces with love is hate, doom and despair all common with depression, panic and fear. THC affects the cannabinoid receptor sites cb1 and cb2, at cb1 level it inhibits the release of GABA, an inhibitory neurotransmitter itself which mediates levels of dopamine and neuropinephrine. So what you have is a complete agonist of neuropeniphrine which leads the mind into complete panic then your body releases adrenaline as if you were going to run away from a bear. Instead you're trying to run away from insanity a heart attack and the devil lol.

There must be some sort of chemical reaction during that specific point in a panic attack which shifts the consciousness of the person away from the immediate moment and into a trance like dream state of unreality.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

UniversalShape1 said:


> I believe dp/dr is a direct result of highly elevated levels of Norepinephrine and Epinephrine resulting in the minds dissociation from the body and it's environment or whichever it views as a threat from the fight or flight response. Seeing how most people's dp/dr result from Panic Attacks/Marijuana Smoke and suffers usually have had coexisting disorders such as Depression, OCD, Anxiety all of which are connected to low levels of Serotonin. Most people live in this state of anxiety and fear everywhere they go mostly because they haven't fully adapted themselves to their environment and so their body feels as if there is some sort of threat either from a social situation or some irrational fear based thought loops. Anyways in the old days man used to live in the wild and if a bear would come into his cave he would either fight or flee from the external real world threat. Now what if the threat wasn't really real, the threat was just coming from your own irrational mind and from your own body's tension with connecting to these thoughts. This is a panic attack and usually DP/DR gets way worst after panic attacks. You're trying to escape the threat from which their is no escaping because you are the threat and your own mind is feedings feelings of doom, death, insanity etc constantly perpetuating a threat that which only exists in one's own mind.
> 
> I believe the reason why people get these panic attacks while using marijuana is because if you have poor serotonin levels which are responsible for feelings of love and accentuating human emotion. Your body is automatically going to produce higher levels of stress/adrenaline/fear to replace your emptiness with some other force. Only thing that closely matches forces with love is hate, doom and despair all common with depression, panic and fear. THC affects the cannabinoid receptor sites cb1 and cb2, at cb1 level it inhibits the release of GABA, an inhibitory neurotransmitter itself which mediates levels of dopamine and neuropinephrine. So what you have is a complete agonist of neuropeniphrine which leads the mind into complete panic then your body releases adrenaline as if you were going to run away from a bear. Instead you're trying to run away from insanity a heart attack and the devil lol.
> 
> There must be some sort of chemical reaction during that specific point in a panic attack which shifts the consciousness of the person away from the immediate moment and into a trance like dream state of unreality.


I believe what your saying MIGHT be the underlyning cause and it does make sense. However I have to point out a few things.
1. this disorder has persisted in people that say don't feel any stress or anxiety anymore.
2.it's much more complicated then just noreponephrine, if this was thecase people could just take a norepi bloker and call it a day but unfortunately it's not that simple.
3. I have actually got improvment from adderall and this raises noreponephrine.

So all the while raised norepi and lowered gaba might have got you here in the first place it doesn't mean it's what's keeping you here. There must have been other down stream changes.


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## shogun (May 15, 2010)

scienceguy said:


> That's exactly what I'm working on please, review my post titled "parts of the brain in DP" under the reserch thread, there I will be adding all receptor types known to exist in brain areas that have been high lighted in this dissorder.


Awesome will do



> There must be some sort of chemical reaction during that specific point in a panic attack which shifts the consciousness of the person away from the immediate moment and into a trance like dream state of unreality.


When our bodies stress hormones are triggered it releases endogenous opioids, thats why we get a rush of enodrphins after exercising, cause of the release of adrenaline and cortisol. Regarding THC i posted a quote from wikipedia saying that THC is known to activate the bodies endogenous opioid system through an unknown mechanism which may be why some people get that DP feeling while high.

For all we know that unknown mechanism may be the activation of the HPA axis and adrenalin.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

mmafighter said:


> Awesome will do
> 
> When our bodies stress hormones are triggered it releases endogenous opioids, thats why we get a rush of enodrphins after exercising, cause of the release of adrenaline and cortisol. Regarding THC i posted a quote from wikipedia saying that THC is known to activate the bodies endogenous opioid system through an unknown mechanism which may be why some people get that DP feeling while high.
> 
> For all we know that unknown mechanism may be the activation of the HPA axis and adrenalin.


It's really hard to say that the opioid system is involved or not, on one hand you have that one studdy done in russia which showed it might be possible for the pathogenisis of this disorder but on the other hand no opioid agonist such as morphene or oxycodone has ever caused this disorder in some one to the best of my knowlege.

Further more opioids are suppose to raise dopamine and the reaserch I'm doing along with the reserch of a few others is pointing tords low dopamine being atleast a partial contributer to DP.

Hopefully when I get done mapping the opioid receptor locations in the brain a more clear picture will emerge.


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## UniversalShape1 (Nov 22, 2010)

scienceguy said:


> I believe what your saying MIGHT be the underlyning cause and it does make sense. However I have to point out a few things.
> 1. this disorder has persisted in people that say don't feel any stress or anxiety anymore.
> 2.it's much more complicated then just noreponephrine, if this was thecase people could just take a norepi bloker and call it a day but unfortunately it's not that simple.
> 3. I have actually got improvment from adderall and this raises noreponephrine.
> ...


1.
Well the same mechanism in the brain which activated the dp/dr consciousness must be the same one that deactivates it. So if the threat is still there at some underlying level then it will not deactivate. The stress and anxiety may be gone but what is it replaced with ?

2.
I agree but that's not what I meant, i'm not placing the source of the problem to norepeniphrine, I'm saying the norepeniphrine is what leads up to another chemical reaction or creates a byproduct for a separate kind of imbalance or dysregulation of neurochemistry.

3. I have too, I've taken adderall and seen much improvement in my focus and clarity of thought. But. I do believe that adderall is made up mostly 80 percent dextroamphetamine and only 20 percent levoamphetamine. Dextroamphetamine acts primarily on dopamine while levoamphetamine acts primarily on norepinephrine. I think you can account your positive symptoms mostly to the d-amphetamine preventing the reuptake of dopamine. If you notice after the effects of adderall begin to wear off you start feeling anxiety and fear in your body as well as poor sexual performance and irritability. I believe norepineprhine agonist drugs like Guanfacine cause impotence and decreased sexual desire. Dopamine is also a precursor to norepinephrine.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

UniversalShape1 said:


> 1.
> Well the same mechanism in the brain which activated the dp/dr consciousness must be the same one that deactivates it. So if the threat is still there at some underlying level then it will not deactivate. The stress and anxiety may be gone but what is it replaced with ?
> 
> 2.
> ...


Yea actually I did which I thought was really odd as anxiety is supossed to be a side effect of it while it's in it's full effects not while your coming off and the effects are gone and your just going thrugh a semi kind of withdrawal. I also noticed that DP sysmtoms would get much worse for about a day before returning to baseline. I always owed this to the tempory decrease in dopamine folling the mega spike of the amphetmine but maybe there is more at play maybe like we both said norepinephrine activates down stream pathways. I will look more into this aswell.

it's always diffcult to follow the down stream pathways of a given neurotransmitter as not all have even been discovered yet and once you get past the first the second is that much more confusing. for exaple I know seritonin at the 5ht2c lowers dopamine but at which receptor sites I'm unaware of. further more then dopamine being low trigers either one or more things to be lower or higher but what are they and then what to they go on to do after that? it gets pretty complex and hard to keep track of, But I'll do my best.


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## UniversalShape1 (Nov 22, 2010)

scienceguy said:


> Yea actually I did which I thought was really odd as anxiety is supossed to be a side effect of it while it's in it's full effects not while your coming off and the effects are gone and your just going thrugh a semi kind of withdrawal. I also noticed that DP sysmtoms would get much worse for about a day before returning to baseline. I always owed this to the tempory decrease in dopamine folling the mega spike of the amphetmine but maybe there is more at play maybe like we both said norepinephrine activates down stream pathways. I will look more into this aswell.
> 
> it's always diffcult to follow the down stream pathways of a given neurotransmitter as not all have even been discovered yet and once you get past the first the second is that much more confusing. for exaple I know seritonin at the 5ht2c lowers dopamine but at which receptor sites I'm unaware of. further more then dopamine being low trigers either one or more things to be lower or higher but what are they and then what to they go on to do after that? it gets pretty complex and hard to keep track of, But I'll do my best.


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## shogun (May 15, 2010)

scienceguy said:


> It's really hard to say that the opioid system is involved or not, on one hand you have that one studdy done in russia which showed it might be possible for the pathogenisis of this disorder but on the other hand no opioid agonist such as morphene or oxycodone has ever caused this disorder in some one to the best of my knowlege.
> 
> Further more opioids are suppose to raise dopamine and the reaserch I'm doing along with the reserch of a few others is pointing tords low dopamine being atleast a partial contributer to DP.
> 
> Hopefully when I get done mapping the opioid receptor locations in the brain a more clear picture will emerge.


Yeah the one i'm looking at in particular is the kappa opioid receptor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_Opioid_receptor

I agree it is very paradoxical but thats science isn't it lol

A couple of questions that i have at the moment are

1) what effect does low dopamine levels have on the endogenous opioid system? is there a feed back loop that may cause the body to release more endorphins in response to low dopamine levels to try and raise levels?

2) is there a specific endorphin that causes this? surely not all endorphins are equal and act in different ways on the opioid system, one that i'm looking into is dynorphin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynorphin#Addiction (read the addiction part)it says about dynorphin lowering dopamine levels.

3) it is also interesting about not hearing much stories if at all any about opiate drugs like oxycontin, heroin, morphine etc causing DP/DR, is there a peripheral effect that they aren't triggering that other opioid agonist's trigger that cause feeling of dissociation? Could this be heavily related to the NMDA/glutamate systems??


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

mmafighter said:


> Yeah the one i'm looking at in particular is the kappa opioid receptor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_Opioid_receptor
> 
> I agree it is very paradoxical but thats science isn't it lol
> 
> ...


Wow that's a great find man! I didn't even know there were different kinds of enorphines in the the brain, I just figured it was one type for all receptors and I was a student in this stuff! Well that's good though you learn something everyday.

This looks promising since the k opioid receptor can actually lower dopamine tranmision and even might have negative psycological consequenes as such this could very well go in the whole dopamine theory for this and fit right in.

the only problem is that I know morphine also triggers the k opioid receptor and this does not cause DP in people.


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## UniversalShape1 (Nov 22, 2010)

mmafighter said:


> Yeah the one i'm looking at in particular is the kappa opioid receptor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_Opioid_receptor
> 
> 3) it is also interesting about not hearing much stories if at all any about opiate drugs like oxycontin, heroin, morphine etc causing DP/DR, is there a peripheral effect that they aren't triggering that other opioid agonist's trigger that cause feeling of dissociation? Could this be heavily related to the NMDA/glutamate systems??


I know that salvinorin a the main psychoactive in salvia affects the kappa opioid receptors, i've tried salvia on a number of occasions and it's not really comparable with dp/dr.

those opiates don't really have psychoactive effects by the way, those drugs u listed are pain killers


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

UniversalShape1 said:


> I know that salvinorin a the main psychoactive in salvia affects the kappa opioid receptors, i've tried salvia on a number of occasions and it's not really comparable with dp/dr.
> 
> those opiates don't really have psychoactive effects by the way, those drugs u listed are pain killers


Ok so you've actually have tried a k opiate agonist then. What's the difference between your subjective expience on it and the DP/DR dissorder you have now?


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## shogun (May 15, 2010)

UniversalShape1 said:


> I know that salvinorin a the main psychoactive in salvia affects the kappa opioid receptors, i've tried salvia on a number of occasions and it's not really comparable with dp/dr.
> 
> those opiates don't really have psychoactive effects by the way, those drugs u listed are pain killers


Yeah i listed them because they act on the opiate system and there is no psychoactive effects that anyone has reported. As i asked in my question is there a peripheral effect that they aren't triggering which can be the difference in what causes DP/DR and what doesn't.

A lot of other dissociative drugs are NMDA antagonists but are also opioid agonists, the NMDA and glutamate system has been hypothesized to play a part in schizophrenia and other hallucinogenic drugs which makes me wonder if the dissociative states that you get in drugs like ketamine and PCP are via a secondary action on the kappa opioid receptors and the hallucinogenic effects are via the other pathway.

Can you also elaborate on your experience with salvia? would be interested to hear.


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## shogun (May 15, 2010)

scienceguy said:


> the only problem is that I know morphine also triggers the k opioid receptor and this does not cause DP in people.


I'm far from a science head and am just learning as i'm going, but do all agonists have the exact same action on the cells they bind to??

Anyways found this on wiki



> Morphine is also a κ-opioid and δ-opioid receptor agonist, κ-opioid's action is associated with spinal analgesia, miosis (pinpoint pupils) and psychotomimetic effects.


psychotomimetic being something that mimics psychosis. Which still doesn't explain the lack of DP though.


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## gill (Jul 1, 2010)

*. this disorder has persisted in people that say don't feel any stress or anxiety anymore.*

Continuous stress is not required to have DP because DP is physical change in the brain usually in response to a stressor(s). This change can last long after that trigger is gone.


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## nabber (Feb 13, 2009)

I take suboxone which is an extremely powerful opiate.. opiates that made me feel euphoric made me feel a lot better.. suboxone only has euphoric effects if you only take it once every few days, not every day

suboxone -Buprenorphine is a Bentley-derivative opioid of the phenanthrene-morpholine class with extremely high binding affinity at the µ- and κ-opioid receptor. It has partial agonist activity at the µ-opioid receptor, partial or full agonist activity at the ORL1/nociceptin and δ-opioid receptor, *and competitive antagonist activity at the κ-opioid receptor* (I guess that's the Naloxone in the suboxone)?

k-opioid antagonist?


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## Angela2006 (Jan 20, 2006)

Science Guy - thanks for starting this thread. I think your thoughts are very helpful, so please don't get discouraged by some peoples' responses. Thanks. Angela[/b]


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

mmafighter said:


> I'm far from a science head and am just learning as i'm going, but do all agonists have the exact same action on the cells they bind to??
> 
> Well morphine might only have weak binding potential to the k opioid receptor this is true but with very large does that sonetimes people take this might not matter. The other thing is that the k opioid receptor just isn't really that potent in generating DP maybe it can do do it when fully agonised but it's to a much lesser extent then what our dissoder is.
> 
> ...


read abouve


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

gill said:


> *. this disorder has persisted in people that say don't feel any stress or anxiety anymore.*
> 
> Continuous stress is not required to have DP because DP is physical change in the brain usually in response to a stressor(s). This change can last long after that trigger is gone.


by physical change what do you mean? 
I don't believe the physical structure of the brain has change in any way this 
is all a huge chemical imbalence gone horribly wrong that is all.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

nabber said:


> I take suboxone which is an extremely powerful opiate.. opiates that made me feel euphoric made me feel a lot better.. suboxone only has euphoric effects if you only take it once every few days, not every day
> 
> suboxone -Buprenorphine is a Bentley-derivative opioid of the phenanthrene-morpholine class with extremely high binding affinity at the µ- and κ-opioid receptor. It has partial agonist activity at the µ-opioid receptor, partial or full agonist activity at the ORL1/nociceptin and δ-opioid receptor, *and competitive antagonist activity at the κ-opioid receptor* (I guess that's the Naloxone in the suboxone)?
> 
> k-opioid antagonist?


Which symtoms of your DP/DR improved with this and to what extent?


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## gill (Jul 1, 2010)

scienceguy said:


> by physical change what do you mean?
> I don't believe the physical structure of the brain has change in any way this
> is all a huge chemical imbalence gone horribly wrong that is all.


Well, the chemical balance in the brain is what effects the physical structures of the neurons.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

gill said:


> Well, the chemical balance in the brain is what effects the physical structures of the neurons.


Well Yes and no, prolonged neuronal signaling can change the number of recptor sites and to some extent the growth and remission of axions. however If this condition can be brought on suddenly by one time of doing drugs or one great big ol panic attack, then this is not what has happend to cause this dissorder. physical neuronal changes take months not hours.


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## gill (Jul 1, 2010)

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20615973

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20233407

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17197369


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## shogun (May 15, 2010)

> the other thing is that the k opioid receptor just isn't really that potent in generating DP maybe it can do do it when fully agonised but it's to a much lesser extent then what our dissoder is.


what are you basing that on??


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

mmafighter said:


> what are you basing that on??


Sorry in that post meant to say MIGHT not be as potent when fully agonised to make effects like our dissorder. I was trying to explain why morphine has not caused DP in people. Still just thorwing around theorys man just brain storming.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

gill said:


> http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20615973
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20233407
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17197369


Very nice find but I have to point out a few things.

1. these studys were done on rats and rats tend to have faster rates of neuronal death and growth then we humans do.

2. the neurons mentioned most in these articals are ones regarding specificaly to memory and use glutamate as the main tranmitter. glutamte neurons and neurons used in memory are generally subject to physical alterations much quicker then the rest. But still on the order of a few days not hours.

However this is what I was tought in my university and if my professors were wrong I suppose I could be aswell. But if you want me too I can double check my books. As I feel there a better source of information then the internet.


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## nabber (Feb 13, 2009)

scienceguy said:


> Which symtoms of your DP/DR improved with this and to what extent?


I didn't notice a change.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

scienceguy said:


> Yea actually I did which I thought was really odd as anxiety is supossed to be a side effect of it while it's in it's full effects not while your coming off and the effects are gone and your just going thrugh a semi kind of withdrawal. I also noticed that DP sysmtoms would get much worse for about a day before returning to baseline. I always owed this to the tempory decrease in dopamine folling the mega spike of the amphetmine but maybe there is more at play maybe like we both said norepinephrine activates down stream pathways. I will look more into this aswell.
> 
> it's always diffcult to follow the down stream pathways of a given neurotransmitter as not all have even been discovered yet and once you get past the first the second is that much more confusing. for exaple I know seritonin at the 5ht2c lowers dopamine but at which receptor sites I'm unaware of. further more then dopamine being low trigers either one or more things to be lower or higher but what are they and then what to they go on to do after that? it gets pretty complex and hard to keep track of, But I'll do my best.


Ok here's what I got so far on the norepinephrine front. When a2 adrenergic recepors are activated it stops the production of camp in the cell and lowers the release of dopamine and glutamate though out several brain areas.

I know a1 adrenergic recptors tend to do the oposite with camp, being that they cause a rise in it's production, but I can not find any information in my books or the internest as to what neuro chemicals it influences.


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

Scienceguy,

As you have better access to medication than most of us, have you considered Marplan? It boost dopamine, norepinephrine, epinephrine, serotonin, and melatonin. As long as you follow its restrictions it is safe and a very useful drug.


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## gill (Jul 1, 2010)

mmafighter said:


> I believe this a good method, i find my dp/dr is related to my existential obsessions, aswell as obsessions about forming a split personality.
> 
> But i'm often times left with a question in my head, do i have dp/dr cause of my obsessions, or do i have my obsessions because i have an unrelenting feeling of DP/DR. The more i suffer from it the more i think the latter.


If there were no obsessive worries associated with DP, I don't think it would be much of a disorder.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

Visual Dude said:


> Scienceguy,
> 
> As you have better access to medication than most of us, have you considered Marplan? It boost dopamine, norepinephrine, epinephrine, serotonin, and melatonin. As long as you follow its restrictions it is safe and a very useful drug.


No I havn't but right now I don't like the idea to much of taking something that works on multiple systems in the brain. I'm tring to narrow down the cause of DP and treat it more directly.

I think next I will either try naloxone or a combo of a maob inhibiter and aricept. I'm kind of at a cross roads because I know they both have promise of working, one has clinical trials on it and the other alot my reserch as well as tommy's and a few other's on here are really pointing to the whole dopamine acetylcholine theory. takeing an maob inhibitor and aricept would put this one to bed and people would know for sure whether this is it or not.

heck for all the people out there that have psychiatrist or neurolgist thats will to try a couple things with you I would like for you to participate it a trile study with me. this dopamine acetylcholine thing really does look promising.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

scienceguy said:


> Ok here's what I got so far on the norepinephrine front. When a2 adrenergic recepors are activated it stops the production of camp in the cell and lowers the release of dopamine and glutamate though out several brain areas.
> 
> I know a1 adrenergic recptors tend to do the oposite with camp, being that they cause a rise in it's production, but I can not find any information in my books or the internest as to what neuro chemicals it influences.


more info of on the norepinephrine end turns out high levels of norepinephrine acting on the a2 receptor reduce cortisol levels and high levels of norepinephrine acting at the a1 increase it.

also norepinephrine acting at the a2 receotor lowers seritonin release and the hormone vasopressin.

Could any of these down stream changes be the cause of DP?


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## shogun (May 15, 2010)

scienceguy said:


> Sorry in that post meant to say MIGHT not be as potent when fully agonised to make effects like our dissorder. I was trying to explain why morphine has not caused DP in people. Still just thorwing around theorys man just brain storming.


Cool.

Also do all agonists act the exact same way, or can there be a difference between two agonists??


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

mmafighter said:


> Cool.
> 
> Also do all agonists act the exact same way, or can there be a difference between two agonists??


there can be differences in strenth, for example there are partial and full agonists. the partial will activate the receptor to a certain percentage of it's potential and a full agonist will activate it compleatly.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

other possibitys for targeting DP/DR, might be fairly unknown receptor types. I throw this possbilty out there because so far all curent medication has failed at cureing this. Of these receptors that we really need more info on and drugs to target them are....

5ht4, 5ht5, 5ht6, 5ht7
AMPA
mGluR1,mGluR2,mGluR3,,mGluR4,mGluR5,mGluR6,mGluR7,mGluR8
kainate
GHB
gabaB
NR1/2A 
NR1/2D 
sigma receptors 1 and 2

Just some food for thought if anyone wanted to reserch these further.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

Possible role of vasopressin. digging up some reserch on this neuro peptide I found out that when it's low in can cause certain kinds of memory impairment. it has also been used to reverse certain kinds of amneisea in animals. On the other side of the coin though it apears to stenthen memory of stress or anxiety provoked events in your life. So it's a tough call whether boosting this peptide would be benifcial or harmful. More reserch is needed.


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

I don't have many scientific bones in my body, and even if did I don't feel connected to my body so it wouldn't do me much good, however,... what chemicals, receptors, etc play a role in sleep and dreams?... cuz it seems like DP or maybe so more DR is like "living in a dream"... what could be responsible for causing that? I think the naloxone thing is very interesting and would love to give that a shot, no pun intended, but can't because I take subutex. Also... if there were a way to unblock emotional repression I think that could help us a lot. I have no idea how all this stuff works tho.

I know that in acupuncture they use needles to open up energy pathways. This might be something interesting to try with DP/DR. I wonder if the right acupuncturist could open up the emotional floodgates.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

surfingisfun001 said:


> I don't have many scientific bones in my body, and even if did I don't feel connected to my body so it wouldn't do me much good, however,... what chemicals, receptors, etc play a role in sleep and dreams?... cuz it seems like DP or maybe so more DR is like "living in a dream"... what could be responsible for causing that? I think the naloxone thing is very interesting and would love to give that a shot, no pun intended, but can't because I take subutex. Also... if there were a way to unblock emotional repression I think that could help us a lot. I have no idea how all this stuff works tho.
> 
> I know that in acupuncture they use needles to open up energy pathways. This might be something interesting to try with DP/DR. I wonder if the right acupuncturist could open up the emotional floodgates.


True natural sleep is actualy very difficult to pin down to the exact neuro chemical mechinisms involved but some key players are GABA, meletonin and adenosine.

I too wondered about that conection because of how you said it's like living in a dream but also how sleep seems to sometimes make the symtoms of DP/DR worse or better.

I can for one tell you blocking meletonin receptors would do no good as they only play a role in your bodys internal clock and let it know when the day is up and to start other chemical cascade that eventualy lead to sleep.

blocking gaba also probably wouldn't do any good either as this has caused anxiety and seizures in people and actually some GABA promoting drugs like benzos have actually shown to help DP not hurt it.

blocking adenosine actually helps to a very small extent in me but for others it has just led to more anxiety and thus worsening of DP.

I do think more reserch does need to be done in the field of sleep related to DP though, as there probably is a conetion that just isn't known yet.

The best thing I found so far that unblocks that emotinal repression is adderall, it gets you to where your feeling most of your emotions again at about maybe 50 to 60% strenth as they were before and even think better and faster as you once did. but just as quickly robs you of this and leaves you worse in the end so I wouldn't recomend it to anyone.


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

scienceguy said:


> I do think more reserch does need to be done in the field of sleep related to DP though, as there probably is a conetion that just isn't known yet.


I agree.



> The best thing I found so far that unblocks that emotinal repression is adderall, it gets you to where your feeling most of your emotions again at about maybe 50 to 60% strenth as they were before and even think better and faster as you once did. but just as quickly robs you of this and leaves you worse in the end so I wouldn't recomend it to anyone.


I was on adderall for about a year and know what you are talking about. The side effects killed me though. Comedowns made me feel suicidally depressed, couldn't eat, couldn't sleep. On the other hand almost all of my cognitive symptoms went away which was really nice.

I think if there were a magic pill it would have to affect the "sleep" aspect as well as the emotional aspect. Then there are also other factors such as anxiety and depression. Then take into account that everyone is different and everyone's experience of DP/DR is different.


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## Rebekah (May 16, 2009)

Scienceguy, I posted in a different thread my neurotransmitter results that "surfing" said were similar to his, so I think that might be useful info. I also found out that my histamine result was quite low and that this nt was responsible for "day and night" rhythms--per a teaching mp3 I listened to on the Integrativepsychiatry.com website. Also, I had high GABA, the natural tranquilizer in the body. So am I staying asleep (dissociated) while I am awake, and anxious per exhausted adrenals, low cortisol and low epinephrine and norepinephrine? I found this testing insightful, since it corroborated what psychs have diagnosed me with for years.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

surfingisfun001 said:


> I agree.
> 
> I was on adderall for about a year and know what you are talking about. The side effects killed me though. Comedowns made me feel suicidally depressed, couldn't eat, couldn't sleep. On the other hand almost all of my cognitive symptoms went away which was really nice.
> 
> I think if there were a magic pill it would have to affect the "sleep" aspect as well as the emotional aspect. Then there are also other factors such as anxiety and depression. Then take into account that everyone is different and everyone's experience of DP/DR is different.


Yea same here the come downs on the stuff are wicked hard and because they kind of bring you back to life in a sense but then rob you of that just hours later it does bring in depression. how ever just the very fact that this medicine has helped so many people even for just a short time suggests a strong dopamine norepinephrine component to DP's pathogenisis.

also the fact the basal ganglia and the hippocampus use more dopamine then any other neurochemical and the fact these are two of the structures in the brain implicated in this disorder would also sugest this.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

little more info here, I found out that increased norepinephrine can increase dynorphin levels, so yes stress or anxiety does apear to raise this bad endorphin.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

one of the main memory problems in DP is spatal memory, the 5ht3 receptor when activated causes spatal memory problems. while an antagonist has shown to improve spatal memory. seirusly people get off these ssri's I have implicated 3 receptors of this family in either causeing DP or contributing to symtoms!


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

another cause for DP might be increased nitric oxide production in the brain. NO raises in the brain in extream stress or anxiety states and direct NO administration has been shown to cause tempory DP in people. Also in neuronal NO production knock out mice, THC effected them much less.


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

What do you think about the opioid system and it's affect on DP? For me personally I have found that opiates are the only thing that cause the DP/DR to disappear almost completely. Obviously this is no cure at all and it's only during the "high". There was a study done that showed Naloxone beneficial. I have always wanted to try Naloxone to see how different it would be however have always been on an opiate/opioid. Is it possible that the opioid system is fucked up and plays a role in this somehow?


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## resinoptes (Jan 15, 2011)

Well Salvia creates dp-esque sensations and it's a kappa opioid agonist, so there's a possibility there


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

surfingisfun001 said:


> What do you think about the opioid system and it's affect on DP? For me personally I have found that opiates are the only thing that cause the DP/DR to disappear almost completely. Obviously this is no cure at all and it's only during the "high". There was a study done that showed Naloxone beneficial. I have always wanted to try Naloxone to see how different it would be however have always been on an opiate/opioid. Is it possible that the opioid system is fucked up and plays a role in this somehow?


It's very possible. I would assume the opiates your taking is something like oxycodone or viciden these primaraly work on U opioid receptors these are the "good" ones and make you feel good relaxed pain free and such but there's a whole nother class of opioid receptors called K receptors these reptors when activated make you feel detached or DP'd and actually can reverse many of the good effects of U opioid receptors. the U receptors are activated endogenously by B endorphin where the K is activated endogenously by dynorphan two totaly different neuropeptides.


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

If I had to vote I would say it's gotta have something to do with the opioid system and also the whole sleep thing like we talked about.... as well as probably 500 other things... the brain is so damn complex. If you make any progress in figuring this out, major props in advance. If nothing else thanks for trying.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

surfingisfun001 said:


> If I had to vote I would say it's gotta have something to do with the opioid system and also the whole sleep thing like we talked about.... as well as probably 500 other things... the brain is so damn complex. If you make any progress in figuring this out, major props in advance. If nothing else thanks for trying.


it will be figured out it just takes time and right now there just isn't enough reserch going on in the field DP/DR so it's taking that much longer. WE need more clinical trials of different medications and spinal taps performed.


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## shogun (May 15, 2010)

nirvana said:


> It's very possible. I would assume the opiates your taking is something like oxycodone or viciden these primaraly work on U opioid receptors these are the "good" ones and make you feel good relaxed pain free and such but there's a whole nother class of opioid receptors called K receptors *these reptors when activated make you feel detached or DP'd and actually can reverse many of the good effects of U opioid receptors*. the U receptors are activated endogenously by B endorphin where the K is activated endogenously by dynorphan two totaly different neuropeptides.


I remember reading that when the k opioid receptors are agonized this has an antagonizing effect on the other opioid receptors.

EDIT: Here's the link http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9584625



> In this article, Zhizhong Z. Pan discusses the accumulating evidence that activation of the kappa-receptor antagonizes various mu-receptor-mediated actions in the brain, including analgesia, tolerance, reward and memory processes.


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