# Controversial topic-Bill Cosby



## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

What do you all think about Bill Cosby's outlash at the black community? I wish I had an article to go with this but I'm sure you all have heard something about it. He's been criticizing much about the black community- poor parenting, the way they talk, not taking advantage of the civil rights their ancestors fought for, lack of desire for education.


----------



## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

Here is a link I quickly found.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/TV/11/1 ... index.html


----------



## Guest (Dec 15, 2004)

I could comment on this but im not sure If I want to


----------



## Guest (Dec 15, 2004)

I liked one thing he did

"I don't have the exact transcript, but jiving-talking Sykes was referencing the old "Cosby Show" to Cosby, when Cosby (who never took his sunglasses off once) clearly retorted, "At least we spoke English...""

I'm not sure if I agree with his "activism" because i don't really know much else besides this anecdote. Sorry fans, but i'm anti-Wanda Sykes.


----------



## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

Say what you want, it's actually your opinion I would value most. I'm not going to take anything personally.

I will say that I think a lot of white people have been wanting to say what Bill Cosby said for a long time. But, there is a double standard on this racism issue- I think blacks and other minorities can get away with making fun of and criticizing whites a lot more than whites can with blacks. Perfect example is with comedians- black comedians are always cracking on white people- for a lot of comedians it makes up half of their act and I'm starting to find it getting old. White male, heterosexual, non-Jewish comedians have to be very, very careful when cracking on any other groups. A lot of things can be viewed as racist, mysoginist, or offensive if not delivered with caution.

So, back to my point. Whites have held back saying these things for a long time because of this double standard. I know Cosby was using generalizations, but if you look at national statisics, blacks do score lower on standardized tests than whites. Lower perecentages of blacks go off to college. And the government tried to help this for years with affirmative action, lowering the standards it takes to get minorities into college (namely blacks and hispanics), extending financial aid to minorities, and it didn't really work.

I hate to say it, but if you want to be a lawyer, doctor, banker, etc. you have to be able to communicate well which means properly using the English language. It's the language of high income business. Some call it "talking white," but the proper use of English has been determined by linguists after centuries of using the language. It's not "white." It's professional. Trust me, there are tons of whites who abuse the English language, and it gets worse as you go further down the income ladder. So, I do find some truth in what Cosby has to say.

There are tons of factors that go into this- lower incomes for blacks, living in neighborhoods with higher crime rates, and growing up in environments not conducive for promoting going to college. But, from my experience and observation, there is this fear of being a traitor to your race for hanging out with white people. I do think a lot of blacks are intimidated by trying to socialize with whites, fearing they won't be accepted and will be ridiculed. But, trust me, the same goes with whites- they fear not be accepted either. the problem goes both ways. It's not just the white man's problem anymore. I know from experience playing sports in high school, I played with and against plenty of black people in sports. And there were a couple of times I got caught alone around a bunch of black guys and they were making fun of me, intimidating me, and giving me absolute hell. believe me, it wasn't fun.

I've spent too much time talking. This is an issue that I think needs to be addressed. White people are afraid to bring it up because it is such a delicate issue, so I'm glad somewhat like Cosby, even though he probably didn't handle the situation as well as he could have, had the gall to say something like this.


----------



## Guest (Dec 15, 2004)

On the one hand, I think it is all too easy to be critical when you're on the outside looking in. Even though Cosby is black, he's very wealthy, so to hear him trash poor blacks is rankling.

On the other hand I have to agree with much of what he says. I think sometimes that blacks blame the faults of their feet on their shoes. If it is so hard to get by in this country being black, why do Haitian immigrants, who are usually darker and speak English as a second language, have lower unemployment rates and higher college attendance?


----------



## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

Not trying to get testy here, but it is stuff like this that really pisses me off.

The University of South Carolina hired Steve Spurrier as head football coach without consulting the Black Coaches Association. In response, Floyd Keith, director of the BCA, asked that all recruits boycott South Carolina athletics. "There was an announcement and a hire," Keith said. "That was so fast that a jackrabbit couldn't have had a family between all that."

I find this just ridiculous. The guy is Steve frickin' Spurrier. He led DUKE to an ACC title, Florida to six SEC titles and a national championship. Come On. You don't even have to consult God before making that call. (Sorry, God).

The point of this is that I feel organizations like this, the NAACP, and even the Democratic party to some extent have been coddling the black community and trying to cater too much to their shortcomings, that the idea of personal responsibility has been lost somehwere in there. There is prejudice everywhere, even within one's own race and community. There are too many people pointing fingers at the jump of a gun and placing blame elsewhere. Fingers need some pointing sometimes, but taking personal responsibility to advance one's self, their community, ect., is the only real way you are going to get anywhere.

If you are black here, sorry if this offends you, but the NAACP is a joke and a crime and I believe a disservice to your race. If I could make a list of some of the outrageous claims they have made, you would understand why white people get annoyed at times. Some of the rhetoric I hear within the NAACP sounds like it's straight from a 1964 MLK Jr. speech. Well, it's 40 years later, things have changed, blacks have earned so many more civil rights and the playing field has changed. It may not be even, but it is not what it was in the 60s. One of the main officials compared Bush to Hitler and Stalin and then criticized him for not campaigning before the NAACP. Well, I wonder why.

OK, enough for today. SoulBro, none of this is out of any malice, maybe some frustration, but I welcome your opinion and am interested in what you have to say. Hopefully, I can help you understand how whites feel some of the time.


----------



## Guest (Dec 15, 2004)

G, I think soulbrother is white.

But he has soul! LOL.

I have experienced a few situations where black people said something that would have considered outrageous if said by a white person referring to blacks. Once I heard a black woman say, "All you white people look the same." Um, okay.


----------



## Guest (Dec 15, 2004)

Gimpy you thought I was black? I explained in the BEST MUSICAL ARTIST post that i wasn't, lol

go back and read what i said lol..........

i have many black friends though


----------



## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

I couldn't tell if you were joking or not because you said "I am white...hahaha" so I just decided I would pretend that you were black. And you kept writing LOL after everything you just said. See, you're confusing me.

I am 1/64 Jewish. for real


----------



## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

I've actually heard that same line from a black woman as well, lil' croc. I don't get that. I have trouble telling black men apart because they all have short, curly, black hair. i think black people have better vision than whites so you don't find as many wearing glasses. The women have all sorts of different color hair these days, so that makes it easier.

It's the hair that is usually most distinguishing factor and I think the whites win that one. 1-0 white people.


----------



## Guest (Dec 16, 2004)

Hahaha gimpy. I've gotten really good at distinguishing non-white people though. I watch so many asian films that I can tell if a person is Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Thai, or whatever. Now thats a skill I am proud of.


----------



## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

I think bill cosby is an asshole. He came to a casino near me and me and me and my family went to see him. What a total waste of $65. His show was supposed to be comedy yet all he did was lecture the crowd. One example is he singled out one woman who was smoking a ciggarette and he told her she shouldnt have spent the money to come see him and rather she should save it for chemotherapy. What a laugh. The whole auditorium went silent and the woman started to cry. One guy stood up and told him to leave her alone. The whole thing was a disaster. I talked with the casino workers and they said he was the rudest guest they had ever had and they couldnt wait for him to leave. The casino will never ask him to come back.


----------



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

littlecrocodile said:


> *On the one hand, I think it is all too easy to be critical when you're on the outside looking in. Even though Cosby is black, he's very wealthy, so to hear him trash poor blacks is rankling.*
> 
> On the other hand I have to agree with much of what he says. I think sometimes that blacks blame the faults of their feet on their shoes. If it is so hard to get by in this country being black, why do Haitian immigrants, who are usually darker and speak English as a second language, have lower unemployment rates and higher college attendance?


Wow, this is a dicey topic, but littlecrocodile, I am bothered by your first comment. *Why is it that a successful black man/woman is considered "not really black" -- an "Oreo." And who said that all successful blacks came from money?* I also agree with your second paragraph though.

However, I personally know one black man who attended my private school on scholarship. He lived in a nasty part of Detroit. He came from a home where is father was a blue collar worker. He lost both his mother and his brother. He is presently a successful journalist/Bureau Chief for the Washington Post. (Last assigned Hong Kong. Don't know where he is now.)

An early assignment was a three year tenure in Zaire, Somalia, Rwanda, and South Africa -- back in the 1980s. As a black man, he himself was discriminated against as his skin is DARKER than some other Africans. Lighter skin is preferred even among blacks in Africa! His experience there was dangerous -- he needed body guards; he and his fellow journalists were shot at, several (black and white) were killed. He found tremendous corruption among tribal leaders, etc. Have to read the book -- controversial, but fascinating. And he was also astonished by the spread of AIDS there. A terrible situation decimating the population, but somehow sanctioned by corrupt desposts there.

His book, rejects his African "roots" -- he considers himself simply an American is a fascinating read:

*Out of America: A Black Man Confronts Africa by Keith B. Richburg*

Another black writer. An attorney and controversial radio host from South Central, L.A. whose father was a hotdog vendor, has an interesting, likewise controversial book called *The Ten Things You Can't Say In America by Larry Elder*. He is a Conservative, and has received death threats from blacks for his POV. He is another "Oreo" despite his roots in the lower class.

The one comment that got him into deep trouble was that you can't say "Blacks are more Racist Than Whites." He bases his POV on his own personal experience. By simply valuing education (which was instilled in him by his family). It is so troubling he is not embraced by the black community -- or by very few -- and to receive death threats from blacks for his comments is outrageous.

Also, another great read on the same topic... also about my hometown of Detroit. *Devil's Night and Other True Tales of Detroit by Zeev Chafets*. He is a Jewish writer who was best freinds with a young black men in highschool. He examines the trajectory of his life, compared to that of his friend. It is disturbing, and again reiterates the above topic.

I am not a racist, but I find this topic extremely disturbing. I have witnessed it in the demise of Detroit which used to be a burgeoning city until the 1960s.

*Such a controversial topic I don't dare say more -- which is disturbing. Also, I never liked Bill Cosby myself, however he has done much to try and help members of the black community become successful*.

In the spirit of healthy debate, and I likewise don't wish to offend any black members here. 
Also, I HATE Political Correctness, so I'm never coming from there.

*And we again can't generalize!* None of these individuals is representative of the entire black community. But they have every right to voice their opinion on the topic as anyone else.

Best
D


----------



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

PS:
I loved The Cosby Show though. It was absolutely hysterical.

I'm not a great fan, however, of actors/celebrities, sticking their noses into politics. However if anyone wishes to champion a cause, well who am I to say that's wrong. I don't mind that Sting is trying to save the Rain Forest etc.

My mother, a RACIST to the bone, said, "Oh, there are no such black families like that Cosby show." Absolutely RIDICULOUS. I can name, personally, many black families who are successful... and back in the day when my mother was saying that, some went to my school, and she refused to look at that, to SEE it! Yet, granted, minorities were "red-lined", discriminated against moving into our "tony" suburb. Not just wealthy blacks, but all others than WASPs. I am humiliated by that.

And yes, we also had a black housekeeper. My mother worked as a doctor, my parents split very early on in my life, and there was need for someone to look after me as I was sort of a latchkey, only child. Thank God for her.

Best,
D


----------



## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

Whether what Bill Cosby said is true or appropriate or whatever, I still think it was time for someone black to come out and address how to help resolve the race issue and creating a level playing field for blacks without asking anything from the government or anybody else for that matter and take matters into their own hands. God knows whites have been scared to death of bringing up this issue.

Just look at what happened to Trent Lott in late 2003 when he innocently made a slip-up at Strom Thurmond's birthday when he said how things would be better if Thurmond had been elected president in 1948, when he ran on a segregationist ticket. Grant it, it was a stupid thing to say, but all it was mere flattery with no malintent. Republicans became so freaked out about it and the potential of losing black votes, Trent Lott was basically forced to step down as Senate majority leader. The fact he's from Mississippi didn't help either, but it was ridiculously blown out of proportion. Crazy.

The NAACP needs to get rid of some of these dinosaurs in charge who are still living in 1968 and get some fresh faces who know what's going on. I see I lot of potential out of some of these younger guys in Washington like Barrack Obama (sen-IL) and Harold Ford (cong-TN), who are young, highly intelligent and know what is going on. Bush, although he gets no credit for it, has empowered minorities like no other president before. So, maybe things are turning up.

Bill Cosby didn't grow up rich. I don't think he was poor but grew up in the lower middle class and got a scholarship to a private high school, then went off to college, and the rest is history.

There weren't too many black people in my east tennessee private school, but I did have one black friend who I run into now and then, whose dad was a researcher in Oak Ridge, and he and his sister went off to Harvard. Long story short, his dad was Cliff Huxtable down to the T. We always joked about his dad's "Cosby sweaters," a term made famous by Jack Black in High Fidelity. Stupid story.

Ziggs, I'm starting to get the hang of being able to tell Orientals apart. It's actually not that hard. A lot of times the last names give it off .


----------



## Guest (Dec 16, 2004)

I think its good that you bring up the race issue like this, because whites who are not racist have a hard time expressing the harsh truths and potentially offending another. Bogus acts like affirmative action and no child left behind are total failures and this needs to be addressed, but instead most would like to stand back from a distance and occasionally poke the minority population with a stick (like Bush with "no child left behind").

Bush may have wanted to empower blacks by appointing Cunnulingus Rice and Colin Powell, but he is actually trying to undermine the shared black consciousness. Some may see his actions having immediate benifits, but these things take time. He can't use the system to help minorities, the system needs to be radically changed for this...and that takes time...like some other problems i know about.


----------



## Guest (Dec 16, 2004)

Dreamer said:


> Wow, this is a dicey topic, but littlecrocodile, I am bothered by your first comment. *Why is it that a successful black man/woman is considered "not really black" -- an "Oreo." And who said that all successful blacks came from money?* I also agree with your second paragraph though.


Hi dreamer, I don't recall ever saying Cosby isn't "really black." I'm not even sure what that would mean, exactly. But he is rich, and much of the faults he finds with poor blacks stem from their being poor, not black. So in my mind I see a rich man talking down to poor people-- really, really poor people. the black or not black part of it never came into my mind.

I lost all respect for Cosby when he refused to take a paternity test for his alleged out of wedlock daughter and had her put in jail. If there's nothing to hide, why refuse the paternity test?


----------



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

> Hi dreamer, I don't recall ever saying Cosby isn't "really black." I'm not even sure what that would mean, exactly. But he is rich, and much of the faults he finds with poor blacks stem from their being poor, not black. So in my mind I see a rich man talking down to poor people-- really, really poor people. the black or not black part of it never came into my mind.


Dear Littlecroc  ,
I guess that was a knee-jerk reaction to the concept of an "Oreo"... in other words, black people who have become successful:
a) as the term implies are "black on the outside, white on the inside"
b) they are not "in touch" at all with their "roots"

Well, you're right... a very wealthy individual of ANY race is not going to know that much about life in poverty. But I see no reason why someone like Bill Cosby can't speak out about these issues. As Gimpy said, I don't know his background, but rich or poor, he does have some important things to say.

There is a sad legacy of discrimination, I agree, which has lead many in the black community to believe that whites are conspiring against them to "keep them down." Hence being involved in anything "white" -- being "part of the system" can be seen as "trying to please ******."

I just read an article in the NYTimes that there is still a belief that whites "brought AIDS to the black community." This is absurd. AIDS has affected people the world over. But that type of thinking is difficult to change.

If blacks feel it is like "trying to be white" to go to university, to "join the corporate world", or "work side by side" with whites, well, what is the solution to this major problem of inequality in our society?

I have no clue what the solution would be. You'd think that black leaders who HAVE BECOME SUCCESSFUL and are role models would help. Such as Bill Cosby, or Oprah, or any successful black individual. It's interesting but Oprah is followed more by white women (someone correct me if I'm wrong), and she came from a helluva background.

And Zig, if I may, have a look at the records of Colin Powell and CONDOLEEZA Rice (cough). They are no slouches, and no token blacks. Rice has been a friend of the Bush family for years! She is part of the suspicious "inner circle" of people Bush keeps around him. Oh, boy. Can't win for losin' one way or the other.

It's a sad situation. I also agree with much of what Gimpy has to say.

Best,
D


----------



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

*Dear Ziggy, sorry, I'm too lazy to write out full names,*

Is Condi Rice really unqualified for her job? She was chosen to "empower black people?" She was chosen on her background, and by the fact that she is, as I said, a close friend of the Bush family -- going back to the H.W. administration! and before. Well, I was just about to highlight the whole bio! It speaks for itself. * That is really insulting ... your name for her.* Sorry, I'm I'm "too sensitive"... perhaps I am.. but really.
Best,
D

*Biography of Dr. Condoleezza Rice, National Security Advisor*

Dr. Condoleezza Rice became the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs, commonly referred to as the National Security Advisor, on January 22, 2001.

In June 1999, she completed a six year tenure as *Stanford University 's Provost, during which she was the institution's chief budget and academic officer. As Provost she was responsible for a $1.5 billion annual budget and the academic program involving 1,400 faculty members and 14,000 students.*

As* professor of political science*, Dr. Rice has been on the Stanford faculty since 1981 and has won two of the highest teaching honors -- the 1984 Walter J. Gores Award for Excellence in Teaching and the 1993 School of Humanities and Sciences Dean's Award for Distinguished Teaching.

At Stanford, she has been a *member of the Center for International Security and Arms Control, a Senior Fellow of the Institute for International Studies, and a Fellow (by courtesy) of the Hoover Institution. Her books include Germany Unified and Europe Transformed (1995) with Philip Zelikow, The Gorbachev Era (1986) with Alexander Dallin, and Uncertain Allegiance: The Soviet Union and the Czechoslovak Army (1984). She also has written numerous articles on Soviet and East European foreign and defense policy, and has addressed audiences in settings ranging from the U.S. Ambassador's Residence in Moscow to the Commonwealth Club to the 1992 and 2000 Republican National Conventions.*

From 1989 through March 1991, the period of German reunification and the final days of the Soviet Union, she served in the Bush Administration as Director, and then Senior Director, of Soviet and East European Affairs in the National Security Council, and a Special Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs. In 1986, while an international affairs fellow of the Council on Foreign Relations, she served as Special Assistant to the Director of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. In 1997, she served on the Federal Advisory Committee on Gender -- Integrated Training in the Military.

She was a member of the boards of directors for the Chevron Corporation, the Charles Schwab Corporation, the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation, the University of Notre Dame, the International Advisory Council of J.P. Morgan and the San Francisco Symphony Board of Governors. She was a Founding Board member of the Center for a New Generation, an educational support fund for schools in East Palo Alto and East Menlo Park, California and was Vice President of the Boys and Girls Club of the Peninsula . In addition, her past board service has encompassed such organizations as Transamerica Corporation, Hewlett Packard, the Carnegie Corporation, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, The Rand Corporation, the National Council for Soviet and East European Studies, the Mid-Peninsula Urban Coalition and KQED, public broadcasting for San Francisco.

*Born November 14, 1954 in Birmingham, Alabama, she earned her bachelor's degree in political science, cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa, from the University of Denver in 1974; her master's from the University of Notre Dame in 1975; and her Ph.D. from the Graduate School of International Studies at the University of Denver in 1981.* She is a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and has been awarded honorary doctorates from Morehouse College in 1991, the University of Alabama in 1994, the University of Notre Dame in 1995, the National Defense University in 2002, the Mississippi College School of Law in 2003, the University of Louisville and Michigan State University in 2004. She resides in Washington, D.C.

July 2004

Why shouldn't Dr. Rice just be someone ANY young woman interested in politics might look up to? Black, white, green, purple, etc.

Sorry I'm getting testy, :? 
Best,
D


----------



## Guest (Dec 16, 2004)

> There is a sad legacy of discrimination, I agree, which has lead many in the black community to believe that whites are conspiring against them to "keep them down." Hence being involved in anything "white" -- being "part of the system" can be seen as "trying to please ******."


One of the least mentioned but most obvious issues with the deplorable state of our country's public school system is that inital tanking of the system can be traced directly back to the desegregation of schools. It was thought that if black students had white students around them that somehow they'd start doing better. This is the elephant in the living room for the educrats. No matter how much money they pour into the schools, no matter how much they force integration through bussing, no matter how much they tweak the instructional methods, black and hispanic students still do much worse than asian and white students.

I'll probably offend everyone with a single parent by sayng the following, but I recently read a statistic that the single greatest predictor of crime in a neighborhood is not poverty or lack of education, but the percentage of single mother households in that neighborhood. Since the black community has the highest percentage of single mother househoulds out of every ethnic group in the country (I think the percentage is somewhere around 80%), perhaps this is a huge-but-very-un-PC-to-mention-factor in the problems plaguing the black community.


----------



## Guest (Dec 16, 2004)

Lighten Up. Dave Chapelle's words, not mine. A BLACK MAN SAID IT SO ITS OKAY. I could care less about her own background, although it is impressive. The truth is not in her credentials prior to her tunure with the Bush regime. The truth lies in her membership with bush's negligent posse of shit-throwing chimpanzees.


----------



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Dear Croc,
Yes, I agree with your comment absolutely.

And Zig,
Let's be consistent here.

First Condi Rice was merely a token black in the George W. administration.

Now:



ZiggomatiX said:


> Lighten Up. Dave Chapelle's words, not mine. A BLACK MAN SAID IT SO ITS OKAY. I could care less about her own background, although it is impressive. The truth is not in her credentials prior to her tunure with the Bush regime. The truth lies in her membership with bush's negligent posse of sh*t-throwing chimpanzees.


Which is it?
And I don't care what Chapelle said. THat is truly nasty. I'd better stop for now. I'm not "light" enough here. Sigh.
Very sad. There is a reason we have diplomacy. It serves a purpse, Zig.
Best,
D


----------



## Guest (Dec 16, 2004)

> There is a reason we have diplomacy. It serves a purpse


Tell that to Chlamydia Rice. I never accused her of being a token black. You missed my point.


----------



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

ZiggomatiX said:


> Bush may have wanted to empower blacks by appointing Cunnulingus Rice and Colin Powell, but he is actually trying to undermine the shared black consciousness. Some may see his actions having immediate benifits, but these things take time. He can't use the system to help minorities, the system needs to be radically changed for this...and that takes time...like some other problems i know about.


How else do I read that sentence? I read it as saying, Bush made a veiled attempt to hire two blacks into high positions to placate black voters.

Also, did you know that Powell is a career miliatary man and a General. He didn't get that way by accident.

You may not like either of their views, but as human beings they are both deserving of some degree of respect. I happen to like Powell in particular. He is in charge of diplomacy. Bless 'im. And you know, he's ready to leave the Bush administration.

Best,
D


----------



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Forgot to say, Powell was the voice of diplomacy in the Iraq war. He was hesitant to move forward without further attempts at diplomatic action.

Bush disagreed with him. Rice went with Bush.

Diplomacy is a walk on a tight rope. I wouldn't want to be in any political position, even if it were Mayor of Mayberry, R.F.D.


----------



## Guest (Dec 17, 2004)

Well, you have to admit that their presence has a 'token' effect that bush undoubtedly knew would help his campaign by 'undermining the black consciousness' and disenfranchising them from the democratic party. Regardless of this fact, I agree that Bush might have appointed both of them anyway.

I'd like to quote myself from my own thread 'Who would you like to see as President of USA?'



ZiggomatiX said:


> I'm sure even non-Americans have their own opinion on this one. Mand Bush supporters would prefer another in office as well. Oh well. My choices are strange because i consider myself a moderate (social democrat, fiscal republican). John McCain, Colin Powell, and Dennis Kucinich.
> 
> *John McCain* - Hes just a very independant Republican and despite Republican solidarity, has spoken out against Bush, yet supported his re-election (i'm guessing his club membership would have been revoked if he hadn't). Its very rare at this point in time for a politician to skirt the middle ground instead of resting in one of the party camps.
> 
> ...


----------



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

> Well, you have to admit that their presence has a 'token' effect that bush undoubtedly knew would help his campaign by 'undermining the black consciousness' and disenfranchising them from the democratic party.


Well, call me stupid, but I never saw them as tokens. Rice was in the H.W. Bush administration, Powell is a miliatary General involved in numerous military activities over the years. Neither of them token blacks in their fields.

I see you like Powell. That's cool.

The problem here is, when do we "know" if someone is "token" and "Oreo", etc. Everything *you* say I feel reinforces a negative view, that somehow neither were chosen on their merits. And again, anyone following politics for the past 15 years would see that both of these individuals have had positions of authority and have a laundry list of positive accomplishments -- as human beings, neither black nor white.

This is where I say. .... if a black person is appointed to a high position, it's either a "token appointment", or else we say "they are Oreos." Dear God, we have to stop seeing things at that level.

I swear on my eyesight I NEVER saw the appointment of either Rice or Powell as anything more than for their merits. And as I said, Rice goes back to the H.W. administration.

I also thought Powell might be an interesting candidate for President, but as someone noted, he is not interested in this, or his family comes before this. I don't recall. He has never aspired to be President. Unfortuante. But I think he has been a fine Secretary of State, and will be a fine "elderstatesman" or whatever he chooses to be after this administration is over. And Dr. Rice will stay on, whether one likes her or not. And Bush seems to trust her implicitly, they are very close friends!

Best,
D


----------



## Guest (Dec 17, 2004)

I really see nothing wrong with what I have stated. I've got a bit of an extremist view on the state of affairs and I am very isolated with many of my views, so try and feel secure with your politics, because I believe you belong to the status quo.

I have a massive mistrust with the United States government. I believe nearly all of them have secret agendas, manipulative procedures, and conduct clandestine meetings, operations, without the american public ever finding out. I voted John Kerry and I believe him to be a lying politician.

Some people don't like lawyers or dentists. I don't like politicians. A politician is a power hungry ego maniac, and will do anything to build his own reputation. Sometimes to build his/her repitoire, they will do what is right, but more often, they're big-fat head will eclipse simple ethics and betray the trust of the American public.

There are good people in politics. You will find them as the superintendant of a high school, or as a township supervisor. There head only partially eclipses their own conscience. A person like Bush's head is so ridiculously massive, that he can't turn his auto-manipulate function off. Colin Powell, puts his family before presidency. He is a good man.

I admit to being a mild conspiracy theorist (e.g. John Kennedy). Since the US has raped and pillaged the world's resources for so long and put this wonderful mask on the face of the goverment for so long, its easy to see how Americans think that everything is fine. This distopian world is full of so much crap, that I have a hard time not being misanthropic regarding this country.


----------



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Well Zig,
Then that is where our key difference lies. I am not a conspiracy theorist in the least. Yes, there's skullduggery sp? :? corruption, EVERYWHERE, but these complex conspiracy theories... I find them bogus.

I always bring this up. My husband has worked for the Federal Government for, wow, 30+ years or so. His assessment of the whole thing is, there is so much red tape, bureaucracy, idiocy, and incompetence it is virtually impossible for a conspiracy to be carried out. LOL.

And really think of it. How long can anyone keep their mouth shut. Keep a secret.

I look for the less complicated view of things. Makes a lot more sense to me.

D


----------



## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

WHO know what kinda skeeza is a condoleezza?

WHO WHO WHO WHO WHOOOOO??? :wink:

SOMEBODY BLEW UP AMERICA
http://www.amiribaraka.com/blew.html

keep smiling condi.. big brother is watching you.










looks like hes either fingering her from behind or hes got a gun to her back.


----------



## Guest (Dec 17, 2004)

Condeleeza ( spelling?) is an uncle tom


----------



## Guest (Dec 17, 2004)

I've got supporters on the whole cuntamingus rice issue. hooray 

c.u.n.t.a.m.i.n.g.u.s. in case that gets censored


----------



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

SoulBrotha said:


> Condeleeza ( spelling?) is an uncle tom


Well, I rest my case. That again reinforces the stereotype. If a successful black woman works in the "White" House (I'm sure that was a conspiracy to call it that) then she is an "Uncle TOM"!!!!!!

So she's a token, an Oreo, and an Uncle Tom now.

When is a successful black simply a successful American.

This debate is no longer a debate. It's impossible to have an intelligent discussion. It started out so well.

D


----------



## Guest (Dec 17, 2004)

right dreamer cuz im such a HUGE STREOTYPICAL RACIST, HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

lets see, 90 % of my friends are black & latino, I RAP, and all of the girls ive been with besides like 2 have been Non Caucasion.

First off actual black people will tell you that Condeleeza is an Uncle Tom and what not. I have heard it come out of THEIR mouths which is WHY I said it.

What has she done for the black community?? NOTHING

She's too busy in the WHITEhouse giving BUSH Monica Lewinsky's

and no im not some NAACP Pro Black white boy, i just know whats going on because I see it every single day. I hate bringing color into discussions :roll:


----------



## Guest (Dec 17, 2004)

This is a song from NAS new album, one of the greatest rappers ever, and it kind of desrcibes what im talking about, although he really doesn't get political on this one.

These Are Our Heroe's

Nas: "This ain't for everybody. Y'all know who y'all are
Yeah you, y'all know who y'all are. These are our
heroes."

[Chorus]
Let's hear it, one for the ***** on UPN 9 and WB
Who 'Yes Massa' on TV, what ever happened to Wheezy? The Red Fox's?
Never got Emmy's but were real to me
Let's hear it, two for the spooks who do cartwheels
'Cause they said they played they parts well
Now they claim caviar, hate that oxtail
Lambda Sigma Phi badge on lapel
****** always tell him, "Ooh, he speak so well"
Are you the one we look to, the decent *****?
The acceptable ***** -- hell nah
But they say, "These are our heroes"

[Verse 1: Nas]
Uh, Massa used to breed us to be bigger to go play
Athletes of today in the NBA, make me proud
But there's somethin' they don't say
Keep gettin' accused for abusin' White pussay
From OJ to Kobe, uh let's call him Tobe
First he played his life cool just like Michael
Now he rock ice too just like I do
Yo, you can't do better than that?
The hotel clerk who adjusts the bathroom mat?
Now you lose sponsorships that you thought had your back
Yeah, you beat the rap ********, fake ***** you
You turn around then you shit on Shaq
Who woulda knew, Mr. Goodie-Two-Shoes
He love a little butt crack, got enough cash
Little kids with they bus pass who look up to you
To do something for the youth, stupid spoof
But you let them use you as an example
They would rep, but our heroes got they hands full

[Chorus]

[Verse 2: Nas]
You Homey The Clown, bowtie, apple pie, Bo Jangles
But we love Bo Jangles, we know what he came through
But what's your excuse, duke? You talk Black
but your album sound like you give your nuts for a plaque
You don't ride for the facts like um, say Scarface
You don't know what you feel, y'all too safe
Election done came and went, y'all worked so hard for it
Huh, and in the end we all got dicked
These are our heroes, thanks a lot public school systems still rot
Still harassed by cops, snitches on blocks
Sellin they peoples out - some real folks with clout
Tavis Smiley, Michael Eric Dyson
Stokely Carmichael, let's try to be like them
Nicky Giovanni poetical black female
Jim Brown to the people who sing well from
Fela to Miriam Makeba
The mirror says you are the next American leader
So don't be, acceptin new 'We are the World' records
These ************ get with anything to sell records
Cause it's trendy to be the conscious MC
But next year, who knows what we'll see?
Ha-Ha, these are our heroes

[Chorus]

Nas: "Yeah, I wanna give a special shoutout to the -- y'know
the crew doin' they thing out there reppin' us hard
Big up to Tiger Woods. Yeah, ya don't stop. Big up
to Cuba Gooding Jr. Y'know, yeah, y'know. Tay Diggs
what up my *****. Yeah, ha-ha. And you don't quit
and ya don't quit, and ya don't stop and ya don't quit."

Male Heckler: "Yeah-Yeah, what you doin' for the hood though
homie? What you doin' for the hood, man? Look at
all that paper. Drivin' around like a playboy in
my hood. What type of shit is that?"

*overlapping dialogue*

Nas: "I'm outta here. Please, excuse me, 'xcuse me -- please
Let me get to my limousine, I'm outta here. I know, I
got a plane to catch. And I love you back. Ha-Ha
yeah yeah -- And I'm outta here. A-ha-ha -- PEACE."

Thug Heckler: "Come on *****, give back to the hood. Cocky
motherfucker!"


----------



## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

condi isnt an uncle tom. shes worse. shes a robot. a programmed femme bot with one objective, make the bush administration aka the evil empire look good and more aproachable by hypnotizing the nation with her image. shes just another peice of fluff in the wool thats been pulled over everyones eyes. shes a sell out and a bold faced LIAR. they used her sex and her color for their personal gain.. and she spread her legs and said CUMMON DOOOOOOOOOOWN!!!

black white or green paint it anyway you want, shes always gonna be a skeeza. and sooner or later everyone, and that includes evangelical america, will know it.


----------



## Guest (Dec 26, 2004)

Back on subject, I agree with what the Coz said in a lot of ways, even though what he said is not the 'be all and end all' on race. Like, say, Sean Penn or Trey Parker and Matt Stone or Michael Moore, I have no problem with a celebrity with more money than me commenting on political matters of the day. Fact is, Cosby's right. A lot of the problems Black people have, we have, in general, we do to ourselves. A lot of them don't...the past does haunt us we do face racism, etc. but that does not mean that African-American parents can't do a better job raising our kids. Fathers, take care of your seeds! There has to be more deadbeat, absent dads among poor people in the ghetto than anywhere else.
Basically, the system is messed up in a lot of ways and people are disadvantaged due to things out of their control, but I appreciate Cosby's assertion that people can take responsibility and effect positive change in a lot of areas that we can control. THAT is a very positive message.
I don't mean to be insulting or demeaning to white people at all, but I am insulted a lot of times when white liberals or conservatives for that matter talk about 'black consciousness' like they really know what that is. I'm not talking about all white people because a lot of lower and middle class people regardless of ethnicity know a thing or two about black culture, but a person that's never been to the hood or talked, I mean had a real conversation with a black kid really has no idea.
There are no easy answers, though, and that's reality. (P.S. I am a middle-class suburban black kid, but I have lived in the 'hood and I was born quite poor. I was fortunate enough to know my father and graduate from high school and get accepted to college, etc.)


----------



## Guest (Dec 26, 2004)

^ Thats the truth right there folks

As a white person living in a perdominatly black & hispanic area, I can identify with the black & even spanish culture. The fact is there are alot of poor white people to. My family is middle class, not rich, not poor, more along the lines of average. I live in a neighborhood that ranges from everyone to old Italian people to Young Puerto Rican kids who sell crack. I see it all where I live which gives me an advantage, im all about cultural diversity. I don't judge people on their race but rather their personality.

I dunno if Cosby was right in everything that he said, but like Privateer did say, its a known fact that alot of black fathers don't actually FATHER their children, and ive seen this, i have friends with no fathers, its like an epidemic in inner cities & hoods. My friend is about to be a father, and I KNOW he will probably end up a dead beat dad, because of how he is, he can't even take care of himself never mind a child.


----------



## Guest (Dec 27, 2004)

Soulbro makes a lot of good points. Disadvantaged people of any ethnicity has a lot of problems, some out of their control, and I might not agree with *how* Cosby said that stuff, but the fact that some poor people harm themselves by doing drugs, not raising their kids or not valuing their education or whatever is just true. The much tougher question is what can be done about some problems or how it can be done.

--In the political arena, I do not like Condoleeza Rice. She is not unqualified, I just dislike her stand on many issues. I liked Powell and Paige, but they are gone now. In the Democratic party, I like Obama and Howard Dean or some people, but I do not really like Lieberman, and sorry but Kerry's ideas did not appeal to me as much as I thought some of his ideas were good. I disagree that black people and poor people should support whoever the Democrats put up to vote for 'as an entity', but rather we should look at each person on individual bases and not just 'toe a party line.' I do not owe my vote to entities such as the Republican or Democratic parties (despite my respect for its progressive past), but rather actual politicians and ideas. If Barack Obama or Howard Dean had ran for president I would have voted for them, but I've been disappointed with more presidents than I've been impressed with.

On another note, I was talking with my brother earlier, and I think it's a perverse desire, certainly, that I have, to want my beliefs validated, rather than to humbly search for the truth. I think there is to much of that in politics. I agree with Obama when he said that "The only valid goal of being a politician is to make America the best country that it can be."

--Just some ideas.


----------



## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

SoulBrotha said:



> First off actual black people will tell you that Condeleeza is an Uncle Tom and what not. I have heard it come out of THEIR mouths which is WHY I said it.
> 
> What has she done for the black community?? NOTHING


SoulBro, why do your friends say Condoleeza is an Uncle Tom? Because she is a republican and works for Bush?

I'm not really trying to argue with you here. I'm very indifferent about Condoleeza Rice. Rather than saying she is an Uncle Tom, you got a give a reason better than her giving Bush dong hits. It's not fair to call her that without a good reason. Do you blame her for trying to be successful? Yeah, her particular line of work probably required her to kiss some white ass. Pretty much every "successful" person has kissed a lot of ass in his/her day. But, I don't think it's every black politician's duty to his/her race to have to constantly fight for its empowerment. Especially when your JOB is National Security Advisor.


----------



## Guest (Dec 28, 2004)

This is kind of off-subject, but has anyone heard the song "The Experience" by Goodie MOb? One of my favorite songs on the subject of race.


----------

