# Why would you want to take meds after reading this?



## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

I am interested to know why someone would want to take medication after reading the facts below. I am not trying to push people here, but am genuinely interested to know the reasons why people would continue to persist with meds. Any insights into this weird phenonema, please reply!

_Prescription drugs represent a war on the American people
This situation means that, right now, prescription drugs are killing 100,000 Americans each year and injuring more than two million. Those are the statistics from the Journal of the American Medical Association, and that figure doesn't include the 40,000 or so who are killed each year by over-the-counter pain medications. These are staggering figures: it's like having twenty-five 9/11 attacks each year, but instead of terrorists flying the airplanes, it's pharmaceutical company CEOs. There are more deaths and injuries caused each year by pharmaceuticals than in any U.S. war or conflict since World War II._

Jeremy


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

Over the counter pain medicines are nothing like psychiatric drugs. Alot of the people taking drugs like advil or aleve take them for aches and pains believing that they are safer then prescription painkillers. Most of these deaths are atributed to gastric bleeding and other complications from taking NSAID's.

Saying that knowbody should take any medication at all is complete and utter garbage. If someone with a serious mental disorder went off their meds without doctor supervision they could very well end up dead.

People take medications because they hope it will improve their quality of life. If i stopped taking my medication i would be in very bad shape indeed. Without my meds i had anxiety and dp/dr so bad that i could barely hold a conversation with anyone. I spent most of my day in bed cut off from the rest of the human race. Now since i started taking medication ive accompllished more in the past 3 months then ive been able to do in the past 2 years.

All medications are not the same and most of those deaths associated with those over the counter painkillers could have been prevented. Any medication when used incorrectly can be dangerous. Even something as common as tylenol can be very dangerous in overdose.

Saying that knowone should take any medication because people died from taking certain meds is just stupid.


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## frony (Apr 2, 2006)

That piece of text is nothing but demagogic.....If prescription medication is used right then it can do no harm. The reason why there are all those deaths is not because the drugs are killing those people, it is because of the human factor. Either the death is a result of the doctor's fault (wrong medicaiton prescribed etc.) or the patient's fault (overdose, misuse of over the counter medication).


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

I would like to point out that I did not in fact say that no-one should take any medications. In fact I think medications can be extremely useful in an emergency (such as someone who is seriously mentally disturbed, or who has been in an accident etc), but ONLY in an emergency. People should not have to rely on medications as our body was not designed to take in toxic chemicals which is pretty much what drugs are. Short term use can be useful, long term use is a big NO in my eyes. Long term usage of medications is dangeroous, and I can pretty much guarantee you will not find a healthy person who takes meds in the long term.

I found the above extract from an article here.

http://www.newstarget.com/001352.html

Just my opinions of course.

Jeremy


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## becky (Jan 19, 2006)

I have to agree with those who responded to this post: those statistics are totally scewed... its not the meds that are killing ppl it is human error! But I guess it goes to show you really do need to be careful when taking ANY medication... double check what your pharmacist has given you and make sure you know how much to take and any complications etc.!


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

jeremy said:


> I would like to point out that I did not in fact say that no-one should take any medications. In fact I think medications can be extremely useful in an emergency (such as someone who is seriously mentally disturbed, or who has been in an accident etc), but ONLY in an emergency. People should not have to rely on medications as our body was not designed to take in toxic chemicals which is pretty much what drugs are. Short term use can be useful, long term use is a big NO in my eyes. Long term usage of medications is dangeroous, and I can pretty much guarantee you will not find a healthy person who takes meds in the long term.
> 
> I found the above extract from an article here.
> 
> ...


 All drugs are not toxic chemicals. Thats just bs people take many medications their whole lives and suffer no ill effects. Would a person with high blood pressure be ill advised at taking a anti-hypertensive the rest of their lives? Hell no cause without it they would probley die at a lot younger age. I think they would be alot more healthy on the med then off of it.

What about a diabetic taking insulin would they be healthier without their medication? I think not.

Also drugs such as opiates posses no toxic properties at all. Even most of the psych meds are fairly non toxic. Even the ones that can be toxic such as lithium can be safely used long term if the blood levels are monitered.

Drugs are only toxic chemicals if used improperly.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

> All drugs are not toxic chemicals


Can you please explain this one to me! What are they made out of....herbs? Get real. Medications are chemicals and chemicals are toxic to your body regardless of where they are from.

Jeremy


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## Xu (May 6, 2006)

If something that isn't vital can kill me by having too much of it, I'm likely to think I don't want any of it in my body at all. Personally I'm one of those people who won't even take pain killers. But..

People react differently, I'm more sensitive. I get literally sick if I brush with fluoride toothpaste, for example. Because of my disposition, I know I don't want anything unnecessary, I'd rather deal with stuff naturally.

I'm sure not all those deaths are due to people overdosing & such shit. Rather, it could be giving us a discouraging look at our doctors, misdiagnosing or not assessing somebody's personal risks properly. I was overdosed on blood thinners while I was in a coma, and that sure almost killed me. We do tend to think that things are safer than they really are, and I don't think proper precaution is taken.

On a side note, I wish people would stop whining about 9/11. Not that many people died, comparatively. Terrorism is rampant in many other parts of the world and we never gave a shit about it until it happened to us, but now we're getting into other unrelated country's shit over it. And I'm going to shut up now before I start pissing people off.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

jeremy said:


> > All drugs are not toxic chemicals
> 
> 
> Can you please explain this one to me! What are they made out of....herbs? Get real. Medications are chemicals and chemicals are toxic to your body regardless of where they are from.
> ...


 Well many drugs do come from plants so i guess you could say they are natural and not chemicals. Not all chemicals are toxic and even the drugs that can be toxic are usually safe if used the right way. Hell even water can be toxic if you drink enough of it. People have died from water poisoning.

Saying that people should avoid medications just because they are chemicals is completly insane. If you avoid everything that could be potentially toxic we would all be dead. Salt, iron and most other minerals can be toxic. But if you avoided them altogether you would be in hard shape wouldnt you.


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## frony (Apr 2, 2006)

jeremy said:


> Can you please explain this one to me! What are they made out of....herbs? Get real. Medications are chemicals and chemicals are toxic to your body regardless of where they are from.
> 
> Jeremy


Jeremy, what you're saying is definitely not true. Chemicals are not toxic. Your body is just a mix of chemicals, and what about the herbs, are they not made up of chemicals? I get annoyed everytime someone comes up with the fact that medication are chemicals, and that all cehmicals are toxic for you. What people should remember is that literally everything on this world is made up of chemicals in its basis. Don't stereotype. Yes some chemicals are toxic. But others are not.

Oh, and byt the way pot, coca, opium...they're all just herbs. And tell me they're not toxic? See, the same way you can't put a label on all of the herbs, you can't put a unifying label on all the chemicals also.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Ok. Let me rephrase. Foreign chemicals are toxic. Thats what medications are right...foreign chemicals?

And we are not discussing illicit drugs here, only medications. And I have never said that all herbs are not toxic. I would say stay away from anything that is toxic whether it be herbs or foreign chemicals including pot, coca, opium.

And yes your right, water can be toxic, but it's not actually the water, but the foreign chemicals in it. I am just saying give your body a chance. The world we live in IS a toxic cesspool. By cutting out at least one source (in this case medications) we are at least giving our body a chance to be the natural being it was born to be.

If people want to take medications their whole life and be reliant on them, so be it. It's not what nature intended, and its definetely not living.

Jeremy


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## walkingdead (Jan 28, 2006)

My grandpa always said, "never get into a pissing contest with a skunk". 
nuff said.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Sorry just off the topic, walkingdead may I ask why you want your curse back?


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

jeremy said:


> Ok. Let me rephrase. Foreign chemicals are toxic. Thats what medications are right...foreign chemicals?
> 
> And we are not discussing illicit drugs here, only medications. And I have never said that all herbs are not toxic. I would say stay away from anything that is toxic whether it be herbs or foreign chemicals including pot, coca, opium.
> 
> ...


 Actually it is the water that kills people. It depletes the body of sodium and other electrolytes and thats what kill you. So theres no big bad foreign chemicals coming into play there.

You better give your body a fighting chance and avoid that water from now on.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

If you distill water and drink it in it's purest form (ie without chemicals, minerals and toxins), there is absolutely no way you can die from it. Although it is termed "dead water" it is extremely safe! That would therefore back up my point that it is not the water but the foreign bodies in it.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

jeremy said:


> If you distill water and drink it in it's purest form (ie without chemicals, minerals and toxins), there is absolutely no way you can die from it. Although it is termed "dead water" it is extremely safe! That would therefore back up my point that it is not the water but the foreign bodies in it.


 Alright im sick of arguing this crap so this is the last ill say about it. Google water intoxication. I will even give you a link to a article that does a nice job of explaining it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Thanks for the link. I did know of this in fact, however *anything* in excess is bad, whether it be natural or foreign. You did however get off topic just slightly......Water intoxication has absolutely nothing to do with chemicals or foreign bodies which is what we were discussing.

Jeremy


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## frony (Apr 2, 2006)

jeremy said:


> Thanks for the link. I did know of this in fact, however *anything* in excess is bad, whether it be natural or foreign. You did however get off topic just slightly......Water intoxication has absolutely nothing to do with chemicals or foreign bodies which is what we were discussing.
> 
> Jeremy


First of all that post was not OT, since water is a chemical. And second, Yes anything in excess is bad, which proves my point about medication - if it's used the right way it can do no harm. You were also discussing herbs, but I can guarantee you, that a vast majority of them contain foreign chemicals, so what's the difference here?


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)




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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

I did rephrase it in fact to "foreign chemicals", but not to worry.

All I can say is I feel sorry for those that think medications are the answer long term which is what this topic was about. Really, really sorry for them.

Jeremy


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)




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## Xu (May 6, 2006)

Maybe you won't meet a doctor that will deny the side effects of drugs, but it'd be sure nice if I met a doctor that would talk to me about them at all.

I'm sick of hearing the word chemical used so much. Is it really that big of a deal?

chemical:

Adjective
1. Of or relating to chemistry. 2. Of or relating to the properties or actions of chemicals.
*Noun
1. A substance with a distinct molecular composition that is produced by or used in a chemical process. 2. A drug, especially an illicit or addictive one.*

By definition, chemical refers to drugs.

jeremy might miss out on a few points, but it's not like he's trying to be harmful to people, so I think you guys are being too harsh on him. He has his opinion, and you're kinda nit picking at it...


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

Jeremy kinda proved my whole point for me. Anything can be dangerous if not used right.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Thanks for the opinions. Things can sometimes seem skewed when written on the message boards I have noticed. People can take words the wrong way (including myself). The real point I was trying to make over and above all our petty arguing was that if you tokk care of your health in the first place (eat right, don't smoke, don't do drugs, drink moderately, exercise etc etc) would we really need to use medications in the first place?

I remember watching "Super Size Me" and the part that stood out for me was when he visited the schools and the one that had changed their school lunches to healthy, fresh eating options and got rid of the vending machines etc etc the kids attitudes changed completely. I think it was a school for kids that had troubles and the like and they were completely changed from just changing their diet. I know that is only an emotional change, however, if their diet/s had gone on longer maybe 5-10 years or so, it would be most likely that they would be depressed or have diabetes or anxiety or whatever else. They would then be prescribed medications for their depression and have to take insulin shots or what not, but looking back it may have been prevented by living a healhty lifestlyle in the first place? (I think that was Super Size Me).

By the way I am not attacking any of you that have posted. I just feel so passionate about this subject I may come across as an ")J?U$*(&. People are more sicker than ever. Depression rates are at their highest in histroy. The WHO says depression is going to be the new epidemic. And most of the time people think that there is no other option than to pop pills all their life. And that saddens me that people feel like they have no choice when it could be and have been prevented by a choice of a healthy lifestlye in the beginning as well as searching out ways in which they can better their emotional health too, without having to rely on a doctor (which is why I am just so passionate about EFT because you can do it yourself). I just see that if people did that, the majority of people would not need to rely on doctors and only need to see them for emergencies.

Imagine being in charge of our own health by doing the above without having to rely on medication and doctors and benefits and whatever else comes with illness. Illness is definetely not bad luck and people should not have to think that they have to take mediccation to make themselves better. Unfortunately the media does not help matters at all.

Jeremy


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

When I say depression rates are at their highest. Before 1906, depression in young people was almost unheard of. Now I think the figure is more like 1 in 4...though I would probably say it is actually higher than that.

Jeremy


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

Well i dont know how accurate those statistics are. Whats the chances that before 1906 depression was even diagnosed in young people at all. Only the wealthy would be able to take their kid to a doctor back then and more then likely they wouldnt be diagnosed as depressed. Back then you were usually either sane or insane.

No doubt all the physical diseases are much more prevelant in young people now then back then. Thats due to poor diet and no exercise. But i think depression was probley just as common back then as it is now. It just wasent diagnosed.

I was never a overweight kid i always ate pretty good and got lots of exercise but i still somehow came down with anxiety and dp/dr. I always knew there was something wrong with me. I think in my case it really was just bad luck.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Im sorry to hear that comfortably numb. I wish you good luck in the future then! (And I'm not sure about those stats, but depression is definetely the new epidemic I think)

Jeremy


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## Xu (May 6, 2006)

I think it's true that more and more people are becoming depressed, but I also think that our outlook on psychiatry and the way it's striking into our society is having a horrible impact on us.

Every time I have gone to the doctor since I was 18, I have been told that I look depressed and should consider anti-depressants. I was on them when I was 15 and they %*#@$* my mind over, so I surely don't want them again. Even when I went for other ailments, like when I had horrible poison ivy, my doctor took the time to make a list of psychiatrists and therapists out for me, despite me not wanting it. I don't think my emotions should be my doctor's duties. There's a line between the physical and the mental.

People are so blown over by the idea that certain certain "mental illnesses" exist, they worry and label people constantly. It's so sad watching people be treated like they are so abnormal because they feel depressed or whatever. When I first realized I was "depressed" and it was considered like a "disease", I cried, and I only felt worse about myself.

One guy I've known my whole life wasn't told that he was autistic until he was 16, and when he finally found out, he wanted only to kill himself. His parents don't want him to go to college like he wishes to, they want him to be "protected" and "taken care of" his whole life, because he is different. They don't want him to follow his heart, they don't see him as a normal human being and never have. This very outlook is flawed & hideous... but it's what they have been taught their whole lives, it's how they have been taught to treat him.

We are "learning" that these ailments exist, and thinking that we must "cure" them through drugs that, in my opinion, make you apathetic. It isn't good for our world, but it's also.. intentional......


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## humptydumpty25 (Apr 27, 2006)

yes psychiatry is **** it is not the answer to anything. i am where i am now thanks to psychiatry. its the absolute worst thing that ever happened to me. i curse the day i ever walked into a psych office. they are insidiously , silenting destroying the lives of those deemed "mentally ill" while these harebrained charlatans --sorry i cant refer to them as doctors anymore because they just ARENT--laugh their way to the bank. yes its nothing new, but it is very serious and it has only become worse and worse. *the pharmaceutical companies are out to get everyone, if they had their way every man woman and child on this planet would be totally doped up. *right now its children who are most at risk. not to mention the elderly living in nursing homes across the US who are regularly administered antipsychotics and tranquilizers. (to keep them passive and quiet) this is well known and my stepfather who has been an administrator (director) of dozens of nursing homes across the country for over 30 years confirmed to me that that is a standard, common procedure.

really im sorry to burst anyone's pro-psychiatry bubble here. im no scientologist and dont belong to any political party. hopefully u people are in a position of choice\consent when it comes to whether or not to take mind-altering drugs. unbelievably, that is not the case for many unfortunate individuals who are at this moment having deadly psychiatric drugs forced in their bodies, or are being coerced to do so , or are too young or naive to know any better.

the problem with these drugs is that in many cases, you dont just take it once or for a period of time and then stop taking it and everythings fine. no for many people and definitely for me, the damage is PERMANENT. i have acquired permanent, debilatating terrible Irreversible BRAIN DAMAGE thanks to these drugs. (among other things) also damage to my heart and my thyroid, liver and god knows what else.

and as many of u may or may not know, this kind of brain damage is permanent. there is no cure. the absolute worst of the worst are those drugs classified as "antipsychotic", "neuroleptics" and tranquilizers. just to read the informational brochures on these drugs by the manufacturers should be enough to scare anybody.

in fact, i read in a book about Schizophrenia (i dont remember the title), that the medications prescribed for schizophrenia (anti psychotic drugs) have the effect of making the person look and behave like a zombie.

the truth is that these doctors are not as benevolent as they seem. in my case, ever single doctor i ever saw; a) never warned me or my mom about any possible adverse side effects b) were not at all surprised when i came back to them , upset, desperate, even suicidal over the effects of their drugs. then and only then (after the fact), they admit that what im experiencing is completely normal, very common, and in fact a sign that "the drug is doing its job"

sorry but its all about money. drugs are big business. the doctors and of course drug manufacturers couldnt be happier. the doctors get all kinds of great bonuses (kickbacks), dream vacations, u name it paid for by the drug manufacturers as a reward. one of my sisters girlfriends from high school's stepdad was a psychiatrist....


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## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

jeremy said:


> I am interested to know why someone would want to take medication after reading the facts below. I am not trying to push people here, but am genuinely interested to know the reasons why people would continue to persist with meds. Any insights into this weird phenonema, please reply!


I think it's for the same reason people keep smoking, even knowing what we know about potential cancer/death risks. We want easy fixes. the risks are downplayed by pharmaceutical companies for their profit, doctors are ignorant and/or paid to push the meds. and of course, we're willing participants cuz we're delusional and think we're invincible, and it's much easier to pop a pill than to actually change our life styles.

I used to be very anti-psychiatry on this site, but I stopped, not cuz I changed my mind, far from it. But I realized that preaching against the evils of psychiatry on a site where almost everyone is on some med or a cocktail of meds doesn't do anyone any good. Not everyone who smokes will get cancer, and not everyone on a med will develop permenant damage, but we deserve to know the *real* risks ahead of time, a chance to make a decision if we want to play russian roulette with our health or not, but most of us just don't get that.

If everyone would read Dr. Breggin's (a psychiatrist) "Your Drug May Be Your Problem: How and Why to Stop Taking Psychiatric Medications" then maybe at least if we end up with irreversible damage, it wouldn't be just cuz we were lied to.

http://www.breggin.com

-r


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## kdogg1976 (Mar 15, 2006)

Prescription drugs represent a war on the American people 
This situation means that, right now, prescription drugs are killing 100,000 Americans each year and injuring more than two million. Those are the statistics from the Journal of the American Medical Association, and that figure doesn't include the 40,000 or so who are killed each year by over-the-counter pain medications. These are staggering figures: it's like having twenty-five 9/11 attacks each year, but instead of terrorists flying the airplanes, it's pharmaceutical company CEOs. There are more deaths and injuries caused each year by pharmaceuticals than in any U.S. war or conflict since World War II.

*This is also misdirected because people that are dieing from meds like this are missuseing taking them **** rec drugs i had a friend who would buy my xanax off me for 2 dollars a pill and take 10 15 a day of course eventually it would be fatal thats just like jackin heroin all day!!!!!*
Sean[/quote]


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

I do agree that there is alot of psychiatrists prescribing drugs unnessasarly but i think that when these drugs are used in the right way they can be life savers.

One thing i do not get these days is why doctors are handing out so many anti-psychotics to people that arent psychotic. There way to dangerous and unpleasant to be handed out like candy. Anti-psychotics are unpleasant to people that need them such as schizophrenics, so why are they so eager to hand them out to everyone.

I think that the only reason they can come up with for that is there not addictive like benzodiazepines. Not that benzodiazepines are much harder to come off then ssri's or snri's. I would bet that effexor withdrawal is worse for most people then withdrawing from benzos. Plus theres that whole effexor discontinuation syndrome thing that may be permanent in some people.

I don't think there is any problem with the drugs it has to do with the way they are used. A drug is a chemical neither good nor evil what it's used for is up to the people taking it. Or atleast it should be some docs dont like you questioning their power.


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## Neko (Feb 18, 2006)

This argument sounds rather silly to me. First of all, on the legitimacy of drugs, and whether they are useful for the treatment of mental ailments: the answer is a resounding YES! Think about this for a moment: if drugs did absolutely nothing to alleviate or control or help treat a mental illness, would anybody be taking them? Would anybody be adovacating them as a form of treatment? No. If they were completely useless, not all the propaganda in the world would keep them this popular.

Do they have negative side effects? Certainly many do. However, it's up to the patient to decide whether the gains are enough to make up for the shortcomings. Nobody is coercing you into taking a medication. If it affects you negatively, don't take it.

I have also been a witness to the usefulness of medications on people personally. Bipolar runs in my family. My grandmother was severely affected by it for several years, and it severely harmed many aspects of her life from hygine to family. She was almost to the point of psychosis until she started on a routine of lithium. It saved her life, no doubt. It made her a normal, functioning, relatively balanced person.

Are drug companies eager for money? Do they find ways to worm into offices? Yes. But it's up to the patient/consumer to decide what's right for them. Stay away from the "harder" medicines. You can also recieve therapy without drugs from a psychologist/couselor.

As for the belief that a body will just heal itself 'naturally' if you let it, I would be wary of such a conclusion. If your brain has some sort of imbalance that can't straighten itself out, you may never recover. If I never recieved Celexa/Lamictal, I would either be dead or contemplating how to die right now. Being fried on tons of drugs is obviously not helpful...but there is nothing wrong with using them as treatment. They can be extremely helpful and effective for thousands of people.

Now, for medicine being a constant treatment: yes, sometimes it is. My grandmother needs her lithium to remain stable in her mood and thought process. My brother who has ADHD needs his medication to focus his thoughts. Without it, he has trouble thinkng coherently and makes terrible, sometimes dangerous decisions. For many people, medication is a short-time treatment, but for others, it keeps their quality of life, just as food or exercise does.

The whole antipsychotic drug thing is a bit scary though. Those are some serious meds; they should be for people who fit the criteria after many other treatments fail, and even then monitored cautiously.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Hi Neko

Thanks for the opinions. I come from the other side of the bridge having never been to a doctor before, so it is hard for me to understand where people come from, so what I say is not an attack by any means.

I would just like to point out a fact or two about the body's natural ability to heal itself.

When we get a cut or wound, we do not need to organise healing to take place. It occurs naturally and our body knows exactly what it needs to do to heal. The liver is a great example. This is a scientific fact that we can regenerate a whole new liver in approx 90 days. A liver can still regenerate even if it is up to 75% destroyed. That is amazing in my book.

However when healing becomes stuck, which it can and does in a lot of instances of emotional and mental health I think we have to search further for outside help and by this I mean natural means.

I will not go deeply into my beliefs about brain chemical imbalances, and why they occur but growing research and popular opinion is coming to the conclusion that emotions whether they be good or bad cause changes in brain chemistry. This is a proven scientific fact.

I am totally for drugs being used for the right way, such as in emergencies etc. I would not go and see an Energy Therapist if I had broken my arm and needed painkillers or if I suddenly had a psychotic episode and I needed some tranquilizers. Drugs would be the first choice. But people being prescribed drugs for grief, loss, sadness and fear? That makes no sense to me. There are so many other natural options out there to release emotions and thus returning brain chemical imbalance to its natural equilibrium that people can do for free. I recently just read a clinical study they did with using Energy Clearing therapies on people with anxiety and recording the changes in brain with EEG scans. Over a 6 week period, the changes were absolutely immense. I wish I had a copy of the study to link.

As for your brother and ADHD and your grandmother and Bipolar/Psychosis I pray for you to have the faith to search out alternatives and to know that there are so many (too many even) options out there for conditions such as these. A good website to see is http://www.alternativementalhealth.com

I dont think drugs need to be a long term treatement for anyone. Period. People get cured of these sorts of conditions every day by natural means. To believe that you or someone close to you couldnt achieve this means you are selling yourself short. I am absolutely sick of reading stories of people who have been told by their doctors that theur condition is permanent or incurable.

If there is one thing I hope for in the future is a merging of the medical and holistic professions, taking the best of both worlds. At the moment it is too much of a them and us attitude. And both sides are very guilty of this. Imagine combining the two and working together for a sole purpose, I believe that there would be an unbeatable healing system available to all.

Jeremy


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

^^^^ Jeremy i seriously hope you dont think someone with bipolar would be better off without their mood stabilizers. Someone with serious bipolar could easily end up killing themselves if they suddenly went off their meds.

Bipolar isint one of those disorders that just goes away on its own. Its usually a life time illness that has to be controlled by meds. Many people are on lithium their whole lives and are better for it. Having mood swings all the time and feeling suicidal is not normal.

I dont think any natural suppliment in the world would work as good as lithium. Although lithium is actually a naturally occuring substance.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Hi Comfortably Numb

No dont worry I dont think people would be better off without their mood stabilizers straight away. In fact I think it is very dangerous to come straight off medications. I would not recommend that at all. However I believe we can work towards decreasing or deleting the need for them as a process. It has been done plenty of times in history. I dont believe any illness is for life. Illness, negativity and feeling bad may feel familiar but it is far from normal just like you said. Diabetes was once for life. It certainly isnt anymore. Cancer was also a death sentence years ago. If you look back at past views in all aspects of life, we sometimes think what a stupid conclusion. Yet at the time we thought it was normal and right. We once thought the world was flat! I bet in 100 years, people will look back on my posts and some of my beliefs will be totally outdated, and for the better. I hope they are!!!!

The way I see it is as follows.

You are at a river and suddenly hear a cry for help. You see someone floating down the river towards a huge waterfall unable to swim. You jump in and fish them out. No sooner have you rescued them, another cry for help and another person floating down the river unable to swim. You again dive in and fish them out, and again having rescued them hear another shout. After doing this for several hours becoming extremely exhausted you decide that this is something you will have to do for the rest of your life.

What would have happened if you had travelled down the river and found someone throwing all these people in. Wouldnt it have made much more sense to deal with that instead and thus removing the need to rescue all those people day in and day out?

To relate to what I am saying above. The people floating down the river are the physical, emotional and mental symptoms of illness. The person throwing them in is the core issues (diet, emotional, food intolerance, nutritiuonal deficiencies, toxicity, medical conditions) and the process of diving in and rescuing the people is the repressing and dealing with immediate symptoms through use of drugs.

I believe dealing with the core issue would be far more beneficial than a lifetime on drugs. That of course is just my view 

Jeremy


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## widescreened (Jun 22, 2005)

What about people who swear by medicines?Is it a placebo effect?

Pharmacutical companies spend hundreads of millions researching drugs and testing them.scientifically testing a drug is what makes them credible.Its when a person puts 100% reliance on a drug and doesnt try to adjust their lifestyle,thats when dependency starts.
A war on two fronts,drug withdrawal/dependency along with the existential issues.

Drugs are useful.you can argue that everything is a chemical,molecules whether synthesised in a lab or the result of nature,are made from the same periodic table.

bach flower remedies can nither be prooved nor disprooved as their effects cannot be scientifically tested.You have to rely on subjective evidence given by people who use them,and account for placebo effect and a range of other psycological factors.Could it be simply the brandys calming influence?

Drugs arent perfect but are proobably the best answer we have in terms of medication.Otherwise drugs companies would have cornered the herbal market decades ago.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Hi widescreened

I think you may not have got the gist of what I am trying to express. What I have been trying to say is that "long term" usage of meds is dangerous. The meds in itself are not useless and the two examples I stated above show that they can in fact be useful. Another example is a tv show I was watching last night, an explorer who has been on an expedititon to the north pole managed to acquire frostbite in his feet. He was told they would have to be amputated, yet got a 2nd opinion from another doctor and with careful use of meds and dressing managed to save his feet. That is absolutely awesome, however he did not use them as a long term treatment.

I was watching a documentary a couple of months back and this young kid who must have been about 11 years old, was on blood pressure medication. You should have seen what he was eating and the emotional stresses of his household, yet instead of changing his diet and removing negative external simuli he was prescribed meds which I imagine he probably wont get off for a long time. Do you think it is wise to give a growing 11 year old long term usage of toxic materials. I can understand if the body is not going through the growth process but that shocked me!

Pharma companies recently did trials of drugs using "4 year old kids". Trials. Imagine what could happen to these young kids. Remember what happened to the people in London that recently underwnt a drug trial...At least they had a choice!

I am all for meds being used correctly however definetely not as long term usage (which is in most cases when it comes to psychological problems) Meds do not remove core issues and just builds up the water at the back of the dam. And as we are finding out, negative emotions can cause disease, so therefore in my eyes it would be far beneficial at working out the negative emotions rather than suppressing them further till alter stage when something more serious can occur. You are absolutely right that when a person puts 100% reliance on a drug and doesnt try to adjust their lifestyle is when problems can start, and that is the exact message I am trying to get accross. Unfortunately this happens in a lot of cases, especially whith people with psychological problems.

As for Bach Flowers, I do not think the brandy is the calming factor. The way the remedies are prepared dilutes the brandy down so much that it is not noticeable. Over the course of a 4 week period (which is the normal period for usage of one treatment bottle) you would probably ingest a total of a 10/th to a 25th of a shot of brandy. Therefore I dont see how brandy could be the calming influence, plus the fact that the remedies have been well known to help physical illness too.

And as for the herbal market. Unfortunately nature cannot be patented. The US government knows that there is increasing usefulness of herbs etc and is in the process of putting out a law that will give them total control over the sale and usage of supplements.


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## Xu (May 6, 2006)

> Think about this for a moment: if drugs did absolutely nothing to alleviate or control or help treat a mental illness, would anybody be taking them? Would anybody be adovacating them as a form of treatment? No. If they were completely useless, not all the propaganda in the world would keep them this popular.


I stopped reading your post at this point because it was already apparent to me that you have no clue whatsoever on how the world works.

One of the first pages I found that agrees with and has lots of material on my point of view is http://sntp.net
Great website, not sure if I posted it before. It's getting old, but it's still relevant.


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## Neko (Feb 18, 2006)

> I stopped reading your post at this point because it was already apparent to me that you have no clue whatsoever on how the world works.


Oh ok please enlighten me. My wording is rather silly, but the message that drugs can work for people is not.

BTW, I read your suggested webpage and it's one-sided propaganda. I didn't find any convincing evidence against psychiatry, or at least none that swayed me.



> As for your brother and ADHD and your grandmother and Bipolar/Psychosis I pray for you to have the faith to search out alternatives and to know that there are so many (too many even) options out there for conditions such as these. A good website to see is http://www.alternativementalhealth.com
> 
> I dont think drugs need to be a long term treatement for anyone. Period. People get cured of these sorts of conditions every day by natural means. To believe that you or someone close to you couldnt achieve this means you are selling yourself short. I am absolutely sick of reading stories of people who have been told by their doctors that theur condition is permanent or incurable.


As mentioned above, bipolar isn't something you can treat like other disorders. There is something permanetly different about the structure of the brain that prohibits it from acting and reacting like a healthy brain. Not all of the pure eating and thinking habits in the world would do as much for my grandmother as merely taking medication has done.

Another question for you anti-med people: why are you so against drugs if they help people live a recovering and peaceful life? Perhaps they didn't work for you; not all drugs are suitable for all cases. They are over prescribed; we all know that a psychiatrist's first move is usually to get a patient on an anti-depressent. But if the modern technology of medication can help a person with problems, physical or emotional, why would you be against it?

When I review my emotional status the past several months, I thank God sincerely that we do have medical means that can help stabalize our mental health. I know for certain that without this sort of assisstance, as a weak human being my depression would have drowned me into suicide or self-harm. I am still in the process of sorting things out, and my medication is helping me in that process.

I agree that in cases of things like depression, drugs can definetly be a short time treatment. I do not want or expect to stay on them the rest of my life. I am actively and conciously trying to live a healthier lifestyle; I am seeing a psychologist to help me with breathing exercises, counciling, etc. as well as making it a point to eat healthier and exercise (though these are pretty natural to me already) and to keep my faith an active part of my life. However, in the future, should depression swamp me again, I will not hesitate to seek medicine once more. If it helps me, I will use it.

So Jeremy, I do agree with you on the point that alternative methods can be extremely helpful in sync with medication if need be, but I also believe there are cases where medication is necissary, or at least life changing.

However, I'm not sure if I believe that the body can completely heal the brain. There are many other bodily problems that medication assist with that diet and other methods cannot help with, such as genetic high cholestoral, heart problems, hormonal problems, etc. If other parts of the body can have chronic problems, why is it unfathomable that the brain can as well?


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Hi Neko

I am certainly glad that medication is working well for you, and do hope that you continue to get better and better from it. I am not so clued up on bipolar and am positive you would know a bit about it considering your grandmother suffers from it so I cannot make further comments about treating it. To make clear though, I am not against medication as such, more against it being prescribed when it does not need to be which is on a lot of occasions nowadays.

A patient in our office for example came in complaining of immense back pain that he had suffered from on and off for the last 19 years. Everytime he went to a medical doctor they prescribed him some heavy duty pain killers and told him to live with it. They did not even bother to give him an x-ray or an mri scan. After x-raying him ourselves, now we will be able to treat the real cause and resolve the need for his reliance on the pain killers. That is a very low key example but thats what I meant about medications...not necessarily the medications themselves. Im all for medications, only when it is absolutely necassary, as it sounds in you and your families cases.

Jeremy


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Jeremy said:


> Diabetes was once for life. It certainly isnt anymore.


 :shock: :shock: :shock:

This is indeed a completely useless discussion, but Jeremy you can't argue an anti-med stance, if you haven't studied Chemistry for one thing. You admit you have no knowledge of the opposing side here ... if you don't you are lacking a tremendous amount of knowledge.

*Juvenile onset diabetes which is something some children ARE BORN WITH will kill an individual. If there has been a recent cure, then someone ought to tell my good friend's 22 year old daughter who has been taking care of her own sugar level testing and insulin injections for years. Without her insulin she will go into insulin shock and die. End of story. She started out with seizures at age 3 or so. Her pancreas doesn't work properly. And it can't be transplanted. She has had to watch her diet religiously since the age of 3.... OR SHE WILL DIE.*

Also the growth or rejuvenation of a liver for instance is not a guarantee. Those who receive such transplants, or survive liver injury are NOT guaranteed a healthy future. In transplants of all kinds, individuals must take anti-rejection drugs, for the rest of their lives. (Don't quote me on this re: in EVERY case, but in transplants anti-rejection drugs are needed for lengthy periods of time.)

She did nothing to bring this on. Diabetes that comes from poor diet is a completely different story, and it still needs to be treated until the individual has changed his/her lifestyle. Until someone can find a cure for her illness, she must continue to take insulin -- for the rest of her life.

It is obvious you know nothing of the medical underpinnings of most if not all mental illness. Your ignorance is stunning. And you outright admit to knowing nothing about it. Nothing.

Also, "natural remedies" such as St. John's Wort for example can be dangerous. In some people it can cause high blood pressure, enough to cause stroke. Ignorant homeopaths can cause as much damage as any lousy doctor -- and there are bad ones out there.

Tamoxifen which is used to help treat and prevent breast cancer is made from the bark of a tree -- or is synthsized from the chemical configuration of that plant. Penicillin was originally made from mold. Advances in medicine have eliminated the actual mold (which for instance I'm allergic to), and have created a molecular "duplicate" of sorts of the mold.

Many drugs have plant based chemical configurations. This is why scientists are searching the oceans and the rain forests for more clues to medical advances.

And for God's sake, how many time have I said this... the brain can get sick. It can malfunction. In some people, for the time being, the treatment is lifelong.

I have a cousin who is bipolar and schizoeffective. If you met him on his meds you would see a lack of insight that affects his ability to get any benefit from psychotherapy or any other therapy for that matter, and he is on full disability. The goal of meeting with a therapist is to discuss how he is coping, if he's on his meds,etc. Witout the meds, he is out on the street preaching the Gospel, suicidal, and a danger to himself and to others. He can only focus to work under the table as a mechanic a few days a week. He lives with his mother. He is 35. Why would he chose to live that way?

Hell this isn't even worth arguing.
Everyone here who's made a sensible post has already answered the question.

As someone said, the human body is one sack of chemicals, lol. Mostly H20!

OK, back to household errands.
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Excellent book you must read:

It is already out of date as are many such books and will undoubtedly be undated to catch up with current research, but it is a goldmine of information you know NOTHING about:

*The Chemistry of Mind Altering Drugs: History, Pharmacology, and Cultural Context*

By Daniel M. Perrine
American Chemical Society
Washington, D.C. 1996

Did you ever consider "cultural context" -- the use of medications in other cultures and the deaths that result from lack of the simplest medications in impoverished countries?


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Thanks dreamer, but I probably wont be reading that book anytime soon. I dont feel there is a need to as the medical community places way too much emphasis on symptoms. Whats the point of reading a book about drugs that alter the mind, when you could be concentrating on ways to alter the mind naturally? Im more concerned in helping people naturally and doing a damn good job of it.

Thanks for your post though.

Jeremy


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

jeremy said:


> Thanks dreamer, but I probably wont be reading that book anytime soon. I dont feel there is a need to as the medical community places way too much emphasis on symptoms. Whats the point of reading a book about drugs that alter the mind, when you could be concentrating on ways to alter the mind naturally? Im more concerned in helping people naturally and doing a damn good job of it.
> 
> Thanks for your post though.
> 
> Jeremy


 What do you mean altering the mind naturally? Do you mean by herbs and stuff like that or things like cbt?

Opiates alter my mind naturally and they do a pretty good job of it.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

NLP, EFT. TAT, BSFF, CBT, Hypnosis, Visualisations, Affirmations and Diet


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

jeremy said:


> Thanks dreamer, but I probably wont be reading that book anytime soon. I dont feel there is a need to as the medical community places way too much emphasis on symptoms. Whats the point of reading a book about drugs that alter the mind, when you could be concentrating on ways to alter the mind naturally? Im more concerned in helping people naturally and doing a damn good job of it.
> 
> Thanks for your post though.
> 
> Jeremy


Very unfortunate you choose ignorance. The book is by chemists who research more than mind-altering drugs, They study CHEMISTRY, something anyone in a health profession MUST study. The body at a molecular level, how it works. The book talks about rec drugs as well as other psychoactive drugs. This would also include anesthesia and painkillers, etc., etc., etc., etc...... dissociatives........

If you need to put someone under to fix a broken arm, you need to understand anesthesia -- an emergency situation as you would say. An anesthetist has studied chemistry, and the chemistry of mind altering drugs. When you go to a dentist to have your wisdom teeth out, you need to understand anesthesia, local, and general.

Also, I see you work in a chiropractic office. I have a cousin-in-law who was a chiropractor. She herself had manipulations on her back for about a year for emotional stress (this was way back in the 1980s). The lack of knowledge by the chiropractor she saw resulted in damage to her back which is irreparable and she is in pain most of the time. Time and physical therapy and pain medications have been the only improvements.

She subsequently rejected her profession and wrote a scathing article in a chiropractic journal. She also sued the chiropractor and won. But her pain has never gone away.

I know some people swear by their chiropractors, and that's fine. What works for someone is great.

But questions:

*1. Have you ever treated someone with bipolar? With EFT, CBT, etc.? Can you cite journals that prove it is effective? Reputable Journals in the field of CBT, etc.? If this were an effective cure, those who don't want to take meds -- these people DON'T WANT to be medicated, but it helps them function -- would be flocking to such "cures." CBTs would be rolling in dough.*

2. The homeopathic med and the vitamin industries rake in billions of dollars worldwide. Some of these natural remedies work, others don't. Also, with "regular" "evil" meds, some work for some some don't.

3. Pharmaceutical companies can be brutal in their pricing, I'm not arguing with that, but last I looked in a store for vitamins the price was out of my range. I get a multivitiman and some other supplements at a grocery store.

*4. Most important, Do you have DP/DR? Sorry if I missed your discussion of it if you do. Have you ever had it? Have you ever had a mental illness such as depression? Have you ever had panic attacks/anxiety? You don't mention these things.

And more important, have you been trained in psychology? What is your degree in? If you are using or promoting psychological techniques you need to be trained to give them/understand them. If you are not trained and licensed it is against the law to treat someone.... I don't know the complete statistics, but it is criminal in many states in the U.S. to be without a license. I believe you are in the U.K.? Sorry I forgot, but the same would apply there I assume.*

To choose to be uniformed, to choose to be ignorant, is evil as far as I'm concerned. No we can't know everything, but we can educate ourselves enough to make rational choices. To examine risk benefit.

Man, this gets my panties in a twist, lol.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

At least you maintain your humour besides my ignorance!!! 

To answer your questions

1. I personally have never treated someone with Bipolar with EFT, CBT etc, however if you take a look at the http://www.eftupdate.com/ResearchonEFT.html It has one study that is in the Journal of Clinical Psychology and two others that have been written up for submission. As well as many more studies that are in the planning stages. One actually for an outpatient clinic for patients who have just been discharged from mental hospitals. That will be interesting to see the results of that one. Unfortunately it takes a long time for people to take notice of such revolutionary techniques.

2. Your'e absolutely right about some supplements, a lot of them are not produced in the right way and the body cannot absorb the supplement properly rendering them useless. However I am not a big fan of taking supplements anyway, preferring to get what I need from my diet, however will take them when I feel I need them. Homeopathics have worked for me on physical issues but I never received the emotional benefit of them.

3. In the next few years in the US, vitamins and supplements will be controlled by the government and the medical profession. The Codex Commission is working at making them only available through prescription. Pricing of them may go even up. I am in fact quite distressed at what the US government is doing for your health.

4. I have had DP/DR indeed. So horrible that I had to pack up and leave country. I credit EFT for getting me through that 24 hour flight without a panic attack. As for panic attacks and anxiety, my first ever panic attack, an ambulance was called and I had to be sent home. Chronic anxiety started thereafter. However I have been fortunate to be open and have access to so many natural tools and have never had the need to take medication. EFT has helped me out more than any homeopathic, vitamin supplement, change in diet or therapist.

5. Regarding Chiropractic, I am a great believer in it as I had my first Chiropractic adjustment from the moment I left my mother's womb. This has continued weekly with no abreactions whatsoever. Chiropractic has helped many neck and back injuries from my sporting career. Unfortunately there are a few incompetent Chiropractors that do more harm than good and it is essential that these people are held accountable as your cousin in law has done.

I feel that you are getting the wrong end of the stick in regards to my stance on meds. As I have stated above, it is not the medications themselves that I am against, but the way they are being used these days. There are so many ways to cure ADD for example that Ritalin should only be used sporadically. However people do not want to accept these cures for reasons known only to the cosmos!!

As for being trained in Psychology, I have no university accredited training in it, however it is not illegal to practice EFT, NLP, BSFF or TAT here without a license. Most professionals do not even accept these techniques anyway. I do not use CBT.

Hope this has answered some of your questions and got your panties out of a twist! 

Jeremy


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Hi Dreamer

I just searched for bipolar on emofree.com and came up with this. Has nothing to do with bipoar but is an interesting research paper on Energy Psychology by Dr. David Feinstein. There are several images of changes in the brain by an EEG through repeated use of Meridian therapies. If you were wondering about the scientifics then this paper is where to go.

http://www.emofree.com/pdf-files/feinst ... -paper.pdf

Jeremy


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## Neko (Feb 18, 2006)

Dreamer said:


> Jeremy said:
> 
> 
> > Diabetes was once for life. It certainly isnt anymore.
> ...


How did I miss that comment? Heh. I have Type 1 diabetes myself, as does my father. I can treat it with my insulin and lifestyle to keep myself alive...but it's not a cake walk. I have to actively measure it and there are all kind of nasty side-effects, short term and long term, that interfere with my life. They're making progress but I probably won't see a 100% cure in my lifetime. Oh well, that's the breaks.

Thanks Dreamer for bringing the scientific aspect into this debate. Scientists and researchers are the ones studying the brain and mental processes to understand what happens in the case of mental illness. I would probably trust what they have observed rather than, say, somebody who recommends a certain herb and has done no such research in their lifetime.

It's like going through a forest and choosing between guides: one is working on learning the specifics of a path and mapping it out, and the other doesn't know exactly how the forest is inside but they think they have a way through. Have they made it to the other side before? Maybe. Maybe they've led a few people...but how many others got lost? Bad analogy, but I've seen a lot of quack 'natural' remedies in my short life, or at least enough for me to distrust them.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

I like your analogy Neko.

All I can say is the amount of stories and times I have heard of doctors telling people that their condition is incurable and/or they will die in three weeks and then the individual coming through with a complete cure on their own is overwhelming. I have seen personally so many people with conditions described by doctors as incurable and other just plain shocking and wrong diagnosis' that I just take what a doctor says now with a grain of salt in regards to health. I still cannot believe how many people accept a doctors diagnosis and just live with it. I see these people every day and they get so surprised when we are actually able to help.

The world's scientists once thought the world was flat and when someone came up with a new idea about it they were labelled crazy. You make your own mind up about your condition. If you choose to live with it, obviously it is your choice, but the word incurable does not exist in my vocabulary.

Jeremy


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## Xu (May 6, 2006)

> The world's scientists once thought the world was flat and when someone came up with a new idea about it they were labelled crazy. You make your own mind up about your condition. If you choose to live with it, obviously it is your choice, but the word incurable does not exist in my vocabulary.


Well said!

Ironically (and a tad off topic), it was known that the world wasn't flat hundreds of years prior to that way of thinking; as people long ago navigated on the assumption that the world was spherical. It intrigues me how much knowledge we've completely "lost" at points in history. At this moment in time, it's as if science is trying to keep the world stuck in place, no moving foreward.


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## wildflower (May 3, 2006)

I just want to add a warning to those who plan on taking risperdone. i was on a very low dose, .25 mg, and now that im off it for a month, i still cannot sleep (i fall asleep but i cannot stay asleep for longer than like 50 min). my doctor never warned me that anything can happen, and reassured me that this drug is totally safe with a baby dose.


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