# The Vatican and Miracles



## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

The Catholic Church, contrary to popular assumptions, is VERY skeptical about miraculous phenomenon. For one thing, people seeing christ in stains on walls just makes everyone involved look bad, but the main reason is that signs and wonders isnt why we beleive. Seeking signs, in general I think, can lead to some weird spirituality. Miracles, however, for those who have faith, can and to a degree, should be, commonplace. Especially physical healings. I've seen this occur, and its happened to me. Intervention of God in our lives and a beleif in it, should be the rule and not the exception.

Anyways, all miraculour phenonmenon and visions have a procedure they go through in the Catholic Church of going through a priest to a bishop, who designates a team to collect data (what Mary or Christ is telling a person) and verify authenticity, such as in the healing of cancer, an amputated leg (yes, there are verified cases of this),etc....This is then usually reported to the Vatican bureuas that deal with miraculous phenomenon, or visions. I beleive these departments overlap with the bureau for causes of sainthood. This is because in order to be considered a saint, a person up for canonization must be invoked and heal someone who is sick, and the instant remission of tumors, etc...must be medically verified. One miracle after death from their intercession makes them blessed, two makes them canonized, a saint.

Enough of the backstory. This priest-friend worked in the bureau for the causes of sainthood, studying people's livs, making sure they were squeaky-clean, studying miracles attributed to them. The body of St. Bernadette, the asthmatic French peasant who saw the Virgin Mary in Lourdes France, is incorrupt. It hasnt decayed since her death last century. This is not that uncommon. And its not the "incorrupt" of Lenin's body - the Russians could never get it embalmed well enough to remain incorrupt through natural means, so his "body" on display was made of wax. Poor russians. Anyways, the garbage dump she lived near in which she saw Mary had a stream issue forth near the end of the apparitions. People began getting cured from bathing in the water, and there is now a basilica there. Alot of medically varified healings of amputees, cancer patients, blind people,and cripples. She died in her twenties of the asthma, and her body remained at her convent, on display in glass under the side altar, remaining peacefully incorrupt. The nuns pray all day, and are only kept alive by the donations of pilgrims who come to the church.

Last year, after dinner, during evening prayers, the nuns heard voices in the Church. They heard it issuing from the front of the Church, near the altar. When the approached the altar to investigate, they realized it was emanating from the altar with Bernadette. Needless to say, they were REALLY freaked out, so they called the priest who heard their confessions, what we call a confessor. They approached, and it appeared that Bernadette's body was actually moving its mouth, speaking. This really, really, quickly made it up to the Vatican, and a team was sent down to investigate from the bureau for the causes of sainthood. The Church was sealed off last year, and a mic placed in the crypt, and all of what she was saying recorded. It lasted for several weeks. Eventually it stopped, and the nuns were allowed to let pilgrims back in. NOBODY is allowed to talk about it until the Church figures out what this was from, and if what she said is demonic, heavenly, and even genuine. This is the way miraculous phenonmenon is handled in the Catholic Church - its kept quiet and out of sight until its deemed harmless. Its not actually exploited. There's too much miraculous stuff to even need to exploit it, being reported every day. I only was told the thing that she said the night that the nuns first heard her - to pray for souls, because many, many people were going to die by drowning. This occurred several days before the tsunami, so they think that it was referring to that. They wont say anything else. Crazy, isnt it? But this kind of stuff gets referred up to there all the time. I dont know if stuff THAT crazy is common though.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Just an appendix to that post - she may not have been moving her mouth. The nuns supposedly hear Bernadette joining in praying with them, often. It may have been the voice only, coming from the crypt. That would be a more classical "locution" as they are called. There were one or two news peices about it last year before it was closed up, so you might be able to find them.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

I dont mean to have a closed mind about this sort of thing but when it comes to miracles why is there never any evidence? , I mean in the age where everybody has a mobile phone with a camera and video function and can use sites like youtube why is there not any evidence.

With sponatneous healings there could well be a psychological reason for a healing, like all those churches which do mass healings the belief and placebo could be enough to induce enough relaxation to do the trick and surely if an amputee had some sort of recovery there would be before and after photos and medical records of some sort which would have made front page news.

Do you have any links to the story about St Bernadette I cant find it on the web? I dont really understand why the Vatican would want to cover up anything which could restore the dwindling faith in god, I suppose they have to be careful about being made to look stupid but I dont really understand the need for secrecy.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Yeah, it is hard to believe some of it.

Voices and healing springs...I have very little faith in.

But when it comes to clairvoyance and other senses I am a believer.

But a while back there was a programme on TV: Britain's Best Psychics..or some other such title.

The psychics were of course, no more successful in their analyses of situations than other people would be by chance. Yet I still have faith in syncronicity and gifts because I don't believe it is a testable science, but "random" as it were. Maybe then it isn't syncronicity at all then...

Religion based on outward signs makes no sense to me. Inner religion based on inwards signs - that makes sense.


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

The outward signs only happen, anyways, when the internal signs are already there. Usually, the two go hand in hand. A friend of mine, who didnt take real good care of herself, the more she prayed, the more people asked what she was doing to take care of herself so well! Physical healings _arent_ rare, or unproven. Thats why the Vatican has the luxury to suppress things to keep people calm or just make sure they have good fruits. For every saint, practically, there are two miracles verified by doctors or scientists. Thats alot of miracles. But these, like Miss Starling said, arent important. They are "incidental" to knowing God. You shouldnt be a doubting Thomas and need signs and wonders, but they are there. I think they verified 50 healings at Lourdes, although hundreds more claimed it. Sometimes, a long standing beleif in the miraculous is challenged - and the skeptics are correct. But since faith isnt based on this kind of stuff, the Church allows the evidence to speak for itself. For instance, the Shroud of Turin was carbon dated a second time, and once again, found to be dated to Medeival times. The evidence was presented to Pope John Paul II, and I dont think some of the cardinals wanted to see such a revered relic disproven. "Publish it, " he told them. And so it was. There isnt a need for more miracles than are already verified. Even Martin ascribes the miraculous to inexplicable phenomenon and unknown natural laws. You might not be able to find that story online - there was a Washington article about it, and a Catholic newspaper article about it last year - just two. But you CAN find info on the incorrupt body of St. Bernadette and the other incorrupt bodies of saints. A good place to look at is the visions of Mary in Medjugurue (I know I misspelled that). I dont like to keep up with visions, but the things she says really jive with what I beleive, at least mostly. There are miraculous happenings, exorcisms, healings, visions, etc....happening throughout the world at any given time in just the Catholic Church alone. But alot of this stuff isnt shared with people. Who would beleive it? Does it matter? They arent going to exploit an exorcism or break confidentiality just to prove to people that the spiritual exists, although I think they send reports from them to the Vatican. And who knows what is causing a person to see Mary or Jesus - the devil, psychological problems, brainwashing, God. Its too risky to allow all of this stuff that's reported to be followed by people. But its always around. I've always wanted to have persmission to access the Vatican archives.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Homeskooled said:


> I've always wanted to have persmission to access the Vatican archives.
> 
> Peace
> Homeskooled


For some reason it wouldn't surprise me if you eventually did Brother Homeskooled 

Hehe, actually like many modern, non-Catholics, the person who resonates with me the most is Mother Teresa...and also Mother Julian of Norwich (woo woo...just being unashamedly proud of my birth place!).
Another lady who inspires me is Catherine Dienes, who conducted the choir I was in when I was younger. She was a really solid, determined New Zealander who was technically the first female Cathedral organist Britain has seen. She's also a composer.

I lived briefly with an indian Catholic couple when I was younger. They gave me a place to stay when I was living on my own. He said that he had met Mother Teresa and that was so inspiring! His mother was apparently friends with her, and they had been missionaries themselves. Isn't life a blessing? It means a lot to feel connected to dedicated individuals even if the connection is impersonal...like being born in Norwich.

It is said that when special beings like Mother Teresa pass on special things can happen. I heard a tale about a woman who had a rainbow form over her at the moment of death.

I also heard that when Mother Teresa died she expressly told the sisters not to attend to her. They tried to break this, but the lights went out or something!


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Homeskooled said:


> Physical healings _arent_ rare, or unproven. Thats why the Vatican has the luxury to suppress things to keep people calm or just make sure they have good fruits. For every saint, practically, there are two miracles verified by doctors or scientists. Thats alot of miracles.


I dont doubt that dramatic healings are common, I even read the other day about someone who has beaten the HIV virus! , but I dont see how you can equate a physical healing with a miracle or some intervention from god. The way I see it is that the vast majority of physical problems are psychosomatic so what a huge amount of belief or group belief does is enables the sick person to let go of tension. I have recently been studying the methods of a Malaysian healer who has helped people recover from paralysis and cancer etc and he says all problems physical and mental are down to tension forces in the body which he can actually feel as dark sticky matter. By going to Lourdes or seeing a "saint" the sick people are giving themselves permission to let go of their tension, im sure the group belief and energy helps people feel supported enough for this to help and their belief in god gives them enough psychological support to 'let go' to such a degree that they recover from their problems, but the person doing the healing is themselves there is no intervention from god or anyone else.

I am surprised the Catholic church still believes in exorcisms, I can understand in the past why it would have existed before medical science was developed because people who were epileptic, or badly schizophrenic or psychotic or people with touretees as well as many others were probably deemed to be posessed because of their erratic frightening symptoms, so im sure many times a priest was called to deal with such situations, but we now know the cause so there is no such need any more.

What says everything about visions of Jesus etc is the fact that religious visions are culture bound, so when Buddhists have visions they see the Buddha, when Muslims have visions they see Muhammad and when Christians have visions they see Christ or Mary, what would truely amaze me is if a Hindu had a Christian vision , which whould show that it wasnt a product of their own conditioned brain. Buddhists understand what visions really are, they say that they are just a product of your mind and your karma and there is a saying in Buddhism that if you should ever meet the Buddha or Jesus during your meditation you should "Cut their head off" , which isnt meant as disrespect it is just to show that such visions are worthless and a distraction on the true path.

I agree it would be very interesting to have a look in the Vatican archives, the first thing I would look at is why the Pope didnt criticise the holocaust during WW2, the rest would make a good book im pretty sure.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

The problem with getting "proof" of miracles is that this "proof" always has to abide by our scientific and logical rules for what constitutes proof. Because "miracles" are subjective in nature and science/logic completely rules out the subjective and irrational there never CAN be any "proof".

That is, of course, until science pulls its head out of its ass and starts hearing what the other side has to say, and vice versa


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