# Portrait of a sexual predator



## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-11-22-fla-teacher_x.htm

Okay. The point of this post is to stimulate a discussion on age of consent, an issue which i know a few people on here feel very strongly about. It can also be a discussion regarding the inherent gender bias in the criminal justice system whereby female predators get off (no pun intended) easier than men.

This woman...










...has been found guilty of having sex with her 14 year old male student.

Is there something wrong with the system that lets her get off relatively easy while, were the gender roles reversed, one can rest assured the male teacher would do serious prison time? Or is there a problem with us as a society and our obsession with sex as a taboo. I think i speak for most straight males on here (or anywhere, for that matter) when i say that, if i were 14 (or even my age now), she wouldn't have to ask me twice. Is it right that she's punished at all?

I'm sorry that i'm not setting up this discussion better, but i'm actually busy at work for a change today.

s.


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2005)

Lucky fucking bastard


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## fingertingle (Sep 29, 2005)

Part of the defense against a prison sentence was that a woman as attractive as her would not be safe in prison - actually stated by the defense attorney.


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

fingertingle said:


> Part of the defense against a prison sentence was that a woman as attractive as her would not be safe in prison - actually stated by the defense attorney.


That's just ridiculous. This whole case has so many flaws in it it's hard to know where to begin.


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## MrMortgage (Aug 26, 2005)

Wow...and I'm still single. CRAP!!!


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## agentcooper (Mar 10, 2005)

yuck, yucky, yuck, YUCK! i teach 14 year old boys and i must say -ew-! she is a reasonably attractive lady, why on earth would she mess around with a 14 yr old? i do think there must be something seriously wrong with her to have done that. i know the defense was trying the insanity thing for a while, and i think she does need help....but at the same time, i think there should be a bit stiffer punishment for her crime than house arrest and no more teaching.


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2005)

I wish I was that 14 year old. I always had some hot teachers, but they never had sex with me :evil:


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Wow.....she is amazing looking. I kind of second what agentcooper said, though - why the heck would she lay a 14 year old when she could have any man she wanted? Wow, she is *hot* though. What are you doing to me, Sebastian? I should be moderating, but I cant take my eyes off the page....

And yes, although I or any other male in his right mind would have died to have sex with her at the age of 14, I do consider it statutory rape. Remember, it doesnt matter if both parties consent to have sex if one is underage. The law is there so that older, more manipulative, more sexually experienced people do not corrupt and/or use young people for sexual pleasure. It has nothing to do with whether the minor likes whatever is being done- it is understood in law that the child may not know what is best for them at that age. Do I think that she should have the same punishment as a man who commits statutory rape? Yes. Because the crime is not, as in a classical rape case, bound up in whether the woman - or man - gives their consent. If an adult gives their consent, there is no rape case. Statutory rape is bound up in the irresponsibility and manipulatory intent of the older party. Whether male or female, both are just as able to disregard their maturity, their responsibility, and the law when it regards statutory rape. _*Vitia mores sunt quae fuerunt*_. And in so saying, I rest my case.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

I don't remember much from when I was 14. I remember that I had images of women in my mind, but I was exceedingly introvert to proceed into something like that.

Let's leave the lady outside of this and let's focus on the boy. Can it really hurt every 14-year-old boy to have sex?

There is a suspicion inside my head, that if the boy doesn't feel ready it's not right. But, it doesn't say that she pressed him to do it. Did he wanted to do it? Does he have the right to want to do it? I think this is the issue)

I know people (men) that had sex at the age of 14, and even 13. "I wanted to do it so I went to a prostitute" they say.


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

I'm surprised you guys think she is so hot. She looks kinda regular to me. She is 25 after all. But, on the other hand I was looking her up, and she is pretty in normal pritures, just not in this one in my opinion. I guess its because she's hot for a teacher? But look at agentcooper. Wayyy prettier. I've just been wondering lately. What do guys find attractive in a girl? I know what I find attractive in guys but I don't know what men want in women.


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## agentcooper (Mar 10, 2005)

enngirl5 said:


> I'm surprised you guys think she is so hot. She looks kinda regular to me. She is 25 after all. But, on the other hand I was looking her up, and she is pretty in normal pritures, just not in this one in my opinion. I guess its because she's hot for a teacher? But look at agentcooper. Wayyy prettier. I've just been wondering lately. What do guys find attractive in a girl? I know what I find attractive in guys but I don't know what men want in women.


meeee?!  awwww! no way though...

i think she's "hot" in a "slutty" way that is very appealing to many of the weaker sex. i agree that she is prettier in other pictures (i too looked her up after this post)...but not really that pretty. she is decently attractive, which is why i think she could do a lot better than a gross pubescent boy.


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2005)

I'm confused by this picture. Where exactly was this taken? What's with the sateen undie set, the way too dark lipstick, and the motorcycle? Is the bottle of engine oil in the background supposed to give us ideas? The toolbox? Was this her garage? A photographer's set? I mean this doesn't exactly look like a girl taking pictures of herself with her trusty digital camera in the privacy of her locked bedroom. Did she _pay _someone to take this picture? If so that is pretty freaky.

As far as the particulars of this case I think it depends on what the "victim" was like. Was he a skinny dweeb who looked half his age or the studly football player taller than my father? Not that it isn't illegal either way.

She looks like a cuckoohead to be honest.


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

I was wondering the same thing about why is she in underwear on a motorcycle. It turns out she posed for some magazine, or something, once.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

fingertingle said:


> Part of the defense against a prison sentence was that a woman as attractive as her would not be safe in prison - actually stated by the defense attorney.


Where did it say that? Hell I'll have to go back and read it again.

1. Agreed, I don't find her very attractive, but well, whatever.

2. This was a PLEA agreement, not a trial. The sentence was reduced as she plead guilty. If this had gone to trial I'd gather she would have gotten the higher sentence unless the defense was guilty by reason of mental disturbance.

3. As Homeskooled said I agree that what she did was illegal. It goes both ways. A "child" is not assumed to be knowledgeable enough to make the correct choices. There has to be some specific cut-off age, regardless of how mature a kid is.

4. What was that other insane trial where a much older woman fell in love with her student, he was in love with her and they got married and I think she had a child? What was her name.

In both cases, I see something "odd" about these women. Have to think on it.

But being in danger in prison... she plead out... so she wouldn't go to prison, but a woman's prison would be a lot better than a male prison. Men get raped in prison all the time. Also, she wouldn't be put in maximum security, she didn't commit murder.

Glad she can't be around kids, and can't teach anymore.

She's rather young.
She ain't too bright, and has problems. :roll: 
Don't like her.
But as I understand it, this wasn't a court trial. She plead guilty and avoided trial. Her plea gave her leverage in terms of her punishment.
Now I have to read it again.

ACH, the world went to Hell in a handbasket about 5,000 years ago, LOL.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Don't quote me on any of this, I don't know enough about the case. And I wish I knew more about the law.

I will say this. It is very difficult to understand how/why a case plays out unless you know all the info.

Oh let me read it again, LOL.
She looks like the ubiquitous "dumb blonde" to me, and I agree that agentcooper is a classier lookin' dame, and bless her that SHE's a teacher.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

enngirl5 said:


> I was wondering the same thing about why is she in underwear on a motorcycle. It turns out she posed for some magazine, or something, once.


Well, I obviously have to Google this. Yeah, she looks.... sigh... slutty.

"Debra Lafave, 25, will serve three years of house arrest and seven years of probation. *She pleaded guilty* Tuesday to two counts of lewd and lascivious battery. *If convicted at trial* in Hillsborough County, she could have faced up to 15 years in prison on each count."

There was no trial, she made a plea bargain if I understand this sentence correctly. There was some sort of deal here....

Google time.
Then..... it's comin' up Pumkin PIE TIME!!!!!!!


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

> Lafave's plea came on the eve of trial and was approved by the teen victim and his family (in a court affidavit filed today, the boy's mother wrote that a trial would "negatively affect my son's emotional and psychological well-being").


Interesting. It was the mother who stopped the trial the day before. She didn't want the son to go through the testimony. This is the right of the parent.

So, the trial by jury was cancelled.... in these cases it IS difficult for the victim to speak on the stand and they are the victim... why pedophile cases/rape cases of children are so difficult to prosecute.

I don't know all the details of Florida law, but the original defense would been the "insanity defense". I think this woman is a tad off her rocker.

OK, done.
Cheers.
Yes, the world has gone to Hell in a handbasket. :shock:


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

enggirl5 said:


> I've just been wondering lately. What do guys find attractive in a girl? I know what I find attractive in guys but I don't know what men want in women.


Beauty is subjective, an illusion. Sometimes it's a matter of symetry, but not always.

Each person has his own preferances, but I have found that there are some basic guidelines:

1. she must not have too big nose
2. she must be waisted (not a "wasp waist", but the waist must be thinner)
3. she must not bee too thin or too fat

Judgement gets influenced by what a person thinks about himself, and what is his current emotional stage, e.g.: "When I am feeling good, all women are beautiful".

Other things also take place, like what clothes she wares, and other "fixable" things. Again, it depends on the person.

Also, the law doesn't predict that beeing beautiful means not going to jail.


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2005)

I agree with agentcooper and homeskooled on this one. She must have some hidden agenda to consent to sex with a 14 year old. From the vantage point of a 14 year old, the attention of an older, attractive person can seem like a huge benefit, but from an adult's perspective it SHOULD seem disgusting. Don't most people find that who they're attracted to changes as they change and age? I used to be more concerned with how hot a guy was, now I look for kindness and intelligence. But hot is still really good.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

beachgirl said:


> I agree with agentcooper and homeskooled on this one. She must have some hidden agenda to consent to sex with a 14 year old. From the vantage point of a 14 year old, the attention of an older, attractive person can seem like a huge benefit, but from an adult's perspective it SHOULD seem disgusting. Don't most people find that who they're attracted to changes as they change and age? I used to be more concerned with how hot a guy was, now I look for kindness and intelligence. But hot is still really good.


Her hidden agenda here is that she is a sociopath, stupid, or has some mental problems. These cases are the exception not the rule. And I thought of something last night... not a good idea :? LOL ... that the majority of those accused of sexual offenses are men. I'm almost 100% sure on that, hence a trial like this gets extra publicity.

Also, she isn't a pedophile as the boy isn't prepubescent ... men who are pedophiles like very young children, sometimes just boys, sometimes just girls. Pedophilia as I understand it is not curable ... the individual cannot stop the compulsion despite any form of rehabilitation.

I don't see this woman as any more than not too bright, impulsive, and we don't know what her "mental condition" was as it isn't stated ...

*Since I we weren't sitting on a jury, and there was no jury trial, we will never know how this would have played out in terms of conviction or sentencing. It's impossible to know all the details.But I'm not letting her off the hook.*

End of lecture.
Forgive. 8)


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

I knew this thread would bring you forth swinging, Dreamer. :lol:

Okay, here's my question, and this is something that Brainsilence alluded to...

Was the boy harmed at all?

What is so wrong with this person having sex? People still act as if sex is this horrible thing that should not be talked about, much less engaged in unless you're married or at least "seeing each other". I know that if it was me, and i was 14, and a teacher that looked like that suggested we rock the kashbah, i wouldn't have hesitated for so much as a heartbeat. So, unless the young man feels as though he was manipulated into it or was harmed in some way, somebody tell me what wrong was done here. I agree that there must be something seriously wrong with this woman to be going for 14 year olds when she can have someone like me, but i think there should be a distinction between men or women manipulating teenagers into sex and men or women having consenual sex with them. Not that i know what the circumstances were in this particular case, but as a general rule i mean.

s.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Sebastian,
The question is, how do we define "maturity" and a "maturity" that is acceptable in terms of an adult having sex with a minor. There are age "cut off" dates so that the law can be carried out in a consisent manner.

I forget, but say here in Michigan you must be 21 to drink, but I think you can be 16 to drive... at least I was driving at 16, but that was years ago.

It has nothing really to do with CONSENT per se, it has to do with when we decide when a juvenile is "mature". That is a matter of legislation.

Eons ago, girls married at 13, etc. In certain sects of the Fundamentalist Morman religion, men can take on many brides of a very young age. It's polygamy -- how do we decide if it's right or wrong? How do we enforce a law that says this isn't religious freedom? A great book on that is by Krakauer, "Under the Banner of Heaven" which is of the very negative side of the true *fundamentalist/extreme Mormon* -- *agentcooper, certainly not the Mormonism you were raised with.*

There are men who have sex with underage girls, and it is apparently consensual. If no one finds out, no one can necessarily prosecute the man. But things like pregnancy, STDs etc. will frequently come to light. A young girls ignorance is assumed. The adult's knowledge of sex is assumed.

So it is a definition of what is a "juvenile" and that includes if a junvenile commits a murder and is on the cusp of being an adult, should he/she be tried as adult, etc.

Also, as I said, it is a case by case basis. We don't know all the facts here. We must assume that a 14 year old boy, ruled by his hormones will jump at the chance at having sex with his babe of a teacher. She was 23 at the time?

But do we want to set a precedent? Do we want teachers to be having sex with our kids at school? We have enough problems in the school system. Teachers should be respected. Authority should be respected. And one has to EARN respect. How can somone "under color of authority" (what is that expression -- such as a police officer) command respect if he/she doesn't follow the simplest guidelines.

What this woman did was wrong. If it were my son I'd be disgusted. If anything, it teaches him he doesn't have to be careful about sex, about choosing a partner, about STDs, pregnancy, and that his teacher is not a person of authority, but a slut. Why should he hold himself to any moral standard (and I mean in LIFE -- not stealing, getting away with shit) if a teacher can't control herself/himself?

A 14 year old is a juvenile. The older I get the younger a 14 year old looks. A 14 year old makes poor decisions. An adult knows better.

And again, I don't see this idiot woman as a "risk to society" in the same way a repeat male offender might be. Men are more likely to commit heinous sexual offenses. I don't believe there are many women pedophiles out there. I don't know the statistics, but I'd bet my bottom dollar on that.

We must have "Law & Order" -- my favorite show. We the people decide on laws by electing who will be our District Attorneys, etc.

Again, we don't know the full details of this case. It seems the boy isn't "Psychologically" scarred. But would you want your 14 year old son having sex with his teacher! Really. How many mixed messages are there.

Unacceptable, but again, this woman is the irresponsible party. Yet I don't see her being "a repeat offender" or a "danger" per se. If she is unstable, that is a mitigating circumstance.

Interesting.
D 8) 
I hung lights today


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Also, Sebastian, I don't see society as sex being bad. We were talking in that other thread about "how many partners can a woman have? what is too many?"

If a young person becomes an adult, they are responsible for their own actions.

I'm not uptight about sex. If I had a kid I'd know I'd be dealing with that now. You hope you've raised your child to be responsible. Many people don't, and there are plenty of unwanted babies out there, young girls having children with the fathers taking no responsiblity.... "Babies having babies." And they go on welfare. Grandmothers are raising children.

And again, no concern for STDs, AIDS, pregnancy.

I didn't "understand" how sex "worked" or rather how "guys worked" until I had sex. I was 20. My boyfriend was also a virgin. But we took the time to learn. At 20 we had the sense to use contraceptives, etc. Oh, now my life story again.

*Sebastian, what age would you consider "adulthood"? And if you had your own child, when would you like him or her to start having sex? And when you consider adulthood, when would you try a minor as a adult for murder, robbery, rape, etc. We have to have consistency, a measuring stick in the law, and it has been decided upon and argued incessantly over the years.*

Peace Bro,
Cheers 8)


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2005)

shes cute, but not really my type, although if i was that 14 year old, I probably would have went for it to.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

SoulBrotha said:


> shes cute, but not really my type, although if i was that 14 year old, I probably would have went for it to.


See again, this is beside the point. Of course many young guys would want to sleep with a "sexy" blonde babe. But the teacher should say "NO". It is up to the teacher to set boundaries.

I had incredible crushes on some of my teachers even back in 8th grade. In high school I started to feel sexual attraction to said teachers. One teacher was 26 when I was 16. He knew I worshipped him, would have done anything for him. But if he had gone along and had sex with me that would be completely inappropriate. I was a minor.

If you want to teach, you go by the rules of the school/school system.

If the minor is NOT a part of the school system, and the teacher still wants to have consensual sex on the sly with this 14 year old ... well that's another story, but equally irresponsible on the part of the teacher.

And I think the word "predator" is wrong. I leave that to the likes of true serial criminals. I don't see this woman running out and stalking 14 year old boys ... even if she has a "thing" for them. She is less of a danger than a serial rapist, or as women are known to be serial killers such as nurses who euthanize patients.

Men and women are different. Their sexuality is different. The crimes they commit are different from each other.

Sigh, it just sounds like the men are saying, "Yeah, if she asked me I'd do it." Well of course, I think if my teacher in high school wanted to kiss me, or maybe do more I would have wanted it, though I wouldn't have known what the Hell I was doing. But that is simply NOT appropriate in a school setting.

Even in college a professor and a student, or a teaching assistant and a student... well, it is frowned upon. Is the student getting preferential treatment for having sex with the teacher, etc.? Thorny issue. Though I see less of a reason for concern on a college campus if this happens than in highschool or lower grades.

I will say, in my Master's program, teaching assistants and students .. well the boundaries were much less a problem. A 28 year old Ph.D. student T.A. with a 23 year old M.A.student ... I don't see that as a problem... consensual -- great. But better keep it mum. Again there is a sense of "sex for a grade".

Consenting adults. Vs. ignorant minors, who may indeed be being manipulated.

It doesn't matter if this is a woman or a man.
We don't know the full details of the case, and the mother stopped the trial by demanding her son not testify on the stand. There went the case, and they plea bargained. No trial, she confesses in exchange for X punishment.

Saved the taxpayers some money. :roll:


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

Dreamer, you are right. The law sets an age, it may be 18 or 17 or 21. But maybe the law has done a mistake. I think a boy _may_ be ready at the age of 15. It depends on the boy. I don't know about the girl.

But then... it's about how a specific society works. So, if the law-enforcers notice an undesirable effect in the way 15-year-old persons behave, they apply a law.

It is not necessary that the adulthood age and the sex-allowed age to coincide.



Dreamer said:


> And again, I don't see this idiot woman as a "risk to society" in the same way a repeat male offender might be. Men are more likely to commit heinous sexual offenses. I don't believe there are many women pedophiles out there. I don't know the statistics, but I'd bet my bottom dollar on that.


Double standards 

Let me submit something which may be irrelevant. Bare with me in that case.

A video/computer game entitled "_Grand Theft Auto: Sant Andreas_" (in short "GTA") contains violence. The player can blackmail, beat, do things with drugs, see gore, and kill "people". The game is rated "M" (Mature, age of 17 ).

Another video/computer game entitled "_DOOM 3_", has also violence, another kind of violence. Gore, Hell, chainsaw dismembering, demonic-possession, occult, and other "goodies" like that. This game is also rated "M".

At some point, a computer-savvy player of GTA created a "crack" which allowed the player to "have" sex with a woman (the player assumes the identity of a male persona in the game). This "ability" was inside the game from the very beginning, but the company that created the game decided to just leave it there inactive.

Once this happened, ESRB (the commitee for the ratings) decided that the game should now be played only by adults, "AO" (Adults Only, age of 18).

Conclusion: at the age of 17, *you can... blackmail, beat, beat to death, kill, dismember*, but... *you cannot see two people having sex*. You have to be 18 for that. It's just one year, the point is that intence violence is allowed earlier than sex. It's a symbolic law that tells us something for the people who brought it and the people who like it.

Links:

DOOM 3 -- ESRB rating

Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas -- ESRB rating

Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, Injunction blocks video game law


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

> The law is there so that older, more manipulative, more sexually experienced people do not corrupt and/or use young people for sexual pleasure. It has nothing to do with whether the minor likes whatever is being done- it is understood in law that the child may not know what is best for them at that age.


This is from homeschool. And to me this explains why it is wrong that she had sex with him.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

enngirl5 said:


> > The law is there so that older, more manipulative, more sexually experienced people do not corrupt and/or use young people for sexual pleasure. It has nothing to do with whether the minor likes whatever is being done- it is understood in law that the child may not know what is best for them at that age.
> 
> 
> This is from homeschool. And to me this explains why it is wrong that she had sex with him.


Amen.

And Brainsilence, you can't arbitrarily say that "X" boy of 15 is ready for sex when "Y" girl isn't. That isn't fair either. You must make a decision, based on speaking with kids, asking them what they know, understanding they are NOT mature. You choose an age... say drinking and voting, you determine what "adulthood" is and means.

I don't agree with these arbitrary numbers necessarily.... can't spell.... but you base these on the actions of kids at large.

The greatest cause of death among teenagers I believe is in auto accidents. That would say that teenagers are not responsible drivers and we should treat them accordingly. Give them restrictions. Boys also have higher auto insurance here for accidents. They cause more than girls do. Statistically, over time, this has been proven.

It is a guideline. The age limit is a guideline. It isn't always right or "fair", but it reflects the general activity/sense of minors. I remember how many idiotic things I did at 14. I was no where near having the responsiblities I had at 18. And I see this in my friends' children.

Sigh. Guess, I'm old. And yak too much. :shock:


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## fingertingle (Sep 29, 2005)

Dreamer said:


> fingertingle said:
> 
> 
> > Part of the defense against a prison sentence was that a woman as attractive as her would not be safe in prison - actually stated by the defense attorney.
> ...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debra_Lafave

Read paragraph 4.

I know nothing about the law so I probably just worded that wrong. :?


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## fingertingle (Sep 29, 2005)

I think she's modeling in an ad for whatever oil that is, just a guess.
Oh and... does anyone have a picture of the boy? :lol:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Wikipedia said:


> *On July 18 Judge Wayne Timmerman set a trial date for December 5 at a court hearing after the prosecution and the defense could not agree on a plea bargain. After the hearing, defense attorney John Fitzgibbons was quoted as saying, ?Negotiations have broken off and now it's going to trial. It's time to tee it up.? The prosecution's plea deal involved prison time and the defense found that unacceptable. "To place Debbie into a Florida state women's penitentiary, to place an attractive young woman in that kind of hell hole, is like putting a piece of raw meat in with the lions,*" Fitzgibbons said.
> 
> Owen LaFave has been asked to be a part of the documentary After School which will study the problems of teacher/student relationships. Owen has become an advocate and expert in this field and has appeared on over 50 television programs speaking out about what has happened.
> 
> ...


Dear Fingertingle,
Wasn't attacking you, just that it didn't say that in the post that was originally provided at the top of the thread.

This business here from Wikipedia is even more ridiculous. See, all the legal wrangling in this is beyond anyone. Her defense attorney just said that as another way to slow down the procedings. Lawyerspeak. I don't know.

But this business with the police making porno pictures of her didn't help the case! THAT was probably considered in the plea bargain. If that had come to trial it would have been in her favor.

Who knows what 12 jurors would really hear.

I think there'll be a movie of the week out about this, and it will be as bad as the whole messy story,LOL.

OH BROTHER. :roll:

No, you were correct in what you said fingertingle, but it wasn't in Sebastian's link. I guess I live in a cave as I haven't heard about this case.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

And finally, again.....

*Who would want this teacher for their kid!?* :shock:

I feel no pity for this woman. And it is very unfortunate that the 14 year old kid learned about sex this way. Or, he could have been sexually active with a peer.... already. I would prefer that!


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## Guest (Nov 25, 2005)

What Dreamer said. And it's not illegal between two fourteen year olds.


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## Tom Servo (Sep 19, 2005)

sebastian said:


> Okay, here's my question, and this is something that Brainsilence alluded to...
> 
> Was the boy harmed at all?


Was he harmed? Nah, but he got lucky (hmmm, bad choice of words). If he had gotten her pregnant things woulda really sucked for him, his parents, the kid, the teacher... I sure as hell wouldn't have wanted her for a mom, and I wouldn't want a dad who was only 14 years older than me. I wouldn't have been thrilled at the idea of my wife and me being the grand-parents, either. God, what an old geezer I've become. Maybe it's from having raising 3 teenagers.

On the other hand, if I had been.... Oh, maybe I had better just shut up. She isn't really my type anyway. And I'm OBVIOUSLY not hers!


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Tom Servo said:


> sebastian said:
> 
> 
> > Okay, here's my question, and this is something that Brainsilence alluded to...
> ...


Tom, you're not an old geezer, but this is interesting ... was he harmed? There's a double standard here. If this were switched around and a 14 year old girl had had sex with a 23 year old male teacher, even if it's still consensul.... there would be more hue and cry. I originally read this post as "this woman got off scott free" .... "how did she get off with this charge" and was approaching it from a legal angle. (Being in love with Sam Waterston and all that, sigh)

In this particular case, I don't know what "harmed" is defined as, but this shouldn't have happened to this boy. We have a law against it as we have determined this IS wrong and it DOES cause harm.

I don't think the feelings of a hormone pumped 14 year old boy justify what happened to him. I'm not saying he's going to have a psychotic break because of this, but it is at minimum confusing. He was sexually maniuplated.... and all you guys ... are talking about how lousy it is that we older women manipulate you! If you're a 14 year old boy, couldn't this affect his attitude towards women, towards sex with his peers AT MINIMUM.

*Sex with a minor DOES cause harm. It is difficult to measure. Again, even if it's "consensual" -- what 14 year old really even knows the definition of "consensual". "Yeah, she's a babe. It felt good." But as noted above the adult is using a child in a clearly inappropriate way, and we are justifying it here by saying it's "consensual."*

What age should we choose? If not 14 -- how low do we go? Literally. Thought about this more last nite... again, LOL.

It's wrong. Clear and simple. The case is an odd one re: what the heck is wrong with this woman, but if I were this kids' mother, I don't know what the Hell I'd do. The mother CHOSE to request that the boy NOT testify. Testimony like that ... how many kids can handle court testimony? About having sex with their teacher? That alone is traumatizing.

Well, I'm rambling. But it does disturb me that all the men here say, "Ooo what a babe, wish it had happened to me." You're only seeing it from the eyes of older men, not if it had happened to you. Trust goes out the window at minimum.

OK, end of lecture.
D :shock:


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

The people who judge at which age is sex allowed, are they all right (okey) in their mental health? Did you see the example I posted about the video/computer games?



Dreamer said:


> The greatest cause of death among teenagers I believe is in auto accidents. That would say that teenagers are not responsible drivers and we should treat them accordingly. Give them restrictions. Boys also have higher auto insurance here for accidents. They cause more than girls do. Statistically, over time, this has been proven.


Here, people get a driving lisence at 18. I think that it should be 25. The main reason for my opinion is the accidents, but it's not just that.



Dreamer said:


> It is a guideline. The age limit is a guideline. It isn't always right or "fair", but it reflects the general activity/sense of minors. I remember how many idiotic things I did at 14. I was no where near having the responsiblities I had at 18. And I see this in my friends' children.


I start to think that you are right. Maybe I have forgoten how it is to be 14  There are exceptions however.



beachgirl said:


> And it's not illegal between two fourteen year olds.


Ahhh, beachgirl, you made my mind unlock. Thank you. This is the reason I was objecting. I am not sure but I think that, unfortunatelly, here even this is illegal.



Tom Servo said:


> On the other hand, if I had been.... Oh, maybe I had better just shut up. *She isn't really my type anyway. And I'm OBVIOUSLY not hers!*


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

And again, as they say on "Law and Order" -- we are tripping down a slippery slope, trying to define when it's "OK" for a teacher or an adult to do this sort of thing.

Advocating sex with a minor is a dangerous business.

Pedophilia is destructive to children. It scars them for life. Strange sexual experiences for young people can be confusing, frightening, embarassing ...

Somehow there seems a tendency here to justify what this woman did!

I see it the more I look over the thread.

I know you are nice guys, but really. :roll:

And NO, this isn't a guy vs. woman thing. But are we talking about the woman's actions here, or the boy's "pleasure"? Are we justifying this somehow because she was a "hot babe" and "well, 14 isn't THAT young."

Believe me, I know 14 year old kids of my friends'. THey're YOUNG, and easy targets for this type of abuse of adult power.


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

Dreamer said:


> We have a law against it as we have determined this IS wrong and it DOES cause harm.


Not all laws are just, but any kind of order is better than chaos.



Dreamer said:


> I don't think the feelings of a hormone pumped 14 year old boy justify what happened to him. I'm not saying he's going to have a psychotic break because of this, but it is at minimum confusing. He was sexually maniuplated.... and all you guys ... are talking about how lousy it is that we older women manipulate you! If you're a 14 year old boy, couldn't this affect his attitude towards women, towards sex with his peers AT MINIMUM.


...but.... errr... this prespective seems reasonable. Missunderstandings in sex, not necessarily paralizing ones, but... :-\ I guess it does hurt. I am going to search this issue, it's now on the HUGE list of things I need to explore.

Hmm... "manipulation" itself doesn't seem to me worthy of penalty, but this was "manipulation for sex".



Dreamer said:


> You're only seeing it from the eyes of older men, not if it had happened to you


Yeap, am afraid so. Although I don't find her attactive.


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Dear Enngirl, 
You asked why men find that picture so hot.....Well, its very difficult to explain. You cant really understand unless you have testosterone. I dont mean that in a condescending way - you just really cant. It doesnt really have much to do with aesthetics. When a woman, who doesnt have a whole lot of testosterone, looks at a man, you guys will say "Wow, he's pretty. He's cute. He's aesthetically pleasing." Women, in my experience, are much more likely to go for a beautiful face than large muscles. On a basic human level, even guys can understand this reasoning. But we have that sex hormone - testosterone - which makes us get very instinctual. Its not about that woman's face, really. Its pretty, its inviting, and she has a sultry "come to bed look" on her face. But that alone wouldnt do it. Although she looks fine in her court photos, the guys are more interested in what is going on below the neckline in her motorcycle photo. Yes, a guy's mind is pretty dirty. We cant help it. And if you arent a thoughtful guy, the gallons of testosterone pumping through our veins can kind of turn us into classless barbarians. I dont think women get the hang of this until they're married like 20 years. And it doesnt mean that guys cant be romantic - it just means its really easy for us to have sex for fun, whereas a woman, I think, usually has multiple reasons for sleeping with a man. He's funny, pretty, intelligent, caring, etc, and she'd like him to hang around afterwards....Dont mean to disillusion you. Just thought I'd share, as I feel that the older I get, the more I understand a woman's perspective on things like men, etc...

As an epilogue to what I said earlier, my point Sebastian is not that it is illegal because its about sex at 14. It isnt, and thats why two 14 year olds doing it is legal. Its about abusing the power and knowledge an adult has about sex with a minor, and about the fact that society in general sees something eery and unnatural about. The latin phrase I used means "What was once vice, is now custom". This was my foreign language in highschool.....back in the day.

Peace
Homeskooled

PS- Where is a photo of agentcooper? I looked, but I didnt see any but her avatar, which is very tiny...


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

Yeah, I'm just referring to the pic in her avatar.


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## Tom Servo (Sep 19, 2005)

enngirl5 said:


> But look at agentcooper. Wayyy prettier.


I've gotta agree with you there; even in that microchip-sized photo, she's a lot prettier than "Harley teacher". C'mon, Coop! Show us that you really DON'T look like Terri Garr after all.



Dreamer said:


> Tom Servo said:
> 
> 
> > sebastian said:
> ...


Are you kidding? I've been an old geezer since I was 8, but that's another matter.

Is the double standard societal, or is it more a sort of "biological imperative"? (I put that in quotes so I'd sound less like some big-word-using brainiac.) The potential consequences for women are higher than for us. If that 14 year old kid got the teacher pregnant and flaked on his responsibility to help raise the kid, it wouldn't be quite as bad, from the child's standpoint, as it would if the 23 year old male teacher got the 14 year old girl pregnant and walked out on her. A 25-year-old woman would have at least some ability to raise a kid; a 14-year-old girl would have a lot more trouble.


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

Homeskooled said:


> You cant really understand unless you have testosterone.


Women have these female hormones called estrogens that make them want men. I have seen a documentary and women prefered manly/masculine men faces (including with think cheeks, like Swatzeneiker) for brief-term relationships (let's say a weekend), and calm cute peaceful faces for long-term relationships. Nature takes care of everything.

However, women are less likely to think that away. My opinion is that this has to do more with social status of the two sexes _"You did what? Sex with a man you just met? You whore!"_ (which is rediculous of course, since a whore does it for money or another trade in). The rest is just a (most of the times) subconscious archaic directive "is he good enought to make kids with him?". No biological reason, this last one is as biological as it gets: "directive".

So, what I am saying? Men are not more sexual than women, they behave more sexually, but not very differently than women.



Homeskooled said:


> Yes, a guy's mind is pretty dirty


Sex is dirty? No. Murder is dirty. Sex is instict, as natural as breathing. We, all, are outcome of sex.



Homeskooled said:


> And it doesnt mean that guys cant be romantic - it just means its really easy for us to have sex for fun


For all the times I have wondered, even if that was the intention of the thought, "fun", it ment more than just fun.


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## agentcooper (Mar 10, 2005)

Tom Servo said:


> I've gotta agree with you there; even in that microchip-sized photo, she's a lot prettier than "Harley teacher". C'mon, Coop! Show us that you really DON'T look like Terri Garr after all.


i'll post one for you guys when i can figure out how to do it, and get a pic of myself...i think my parents have one in their digital cam...


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

sebastian said:


> Okay, here's my question, and this is something that Brainsilence alluded to...
> 
> Was the boy harmed at all?





Tom Servo said:


> Was he harmed? Nah, but he got lucky (hmmm, bad choice of words).





Dreamer said:


> Tom, you're not an old geezer, but this is interesting ... was he harmed? There's a double standard here. If this were switched around and a 14 year old girl had had sex with a 23 year old male teacher, even if it's still consensul.... there would be more hue and cry.





Tom Servo said:


> Are you kidding? I've been an old geezer since I was 8, but that's another matter.
> 
> Is the double standard societal, or is it more a sort of "biological imperative"? (I put that in quotes so I'd sound less like some big-word-using brainiac.) The potential consequences for women are higher than for us. If that 14 year old kid got the teacher pregnant and flaked on his responsibility to help raise the kid, it wouldn't be quite as bad, from the child's standpoint, as it would if the 23 year old male teacher got the 14 year old girl pregnant and walked out on her. A 25-year-old woman would have at least some ability to raise a kid; a 14-year-old girl would have a lot more trouble.


*YES THE CHILD WAS HARMED EMOTIONALLY AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY. USED ONLY AS A SEXUAL OBJECT.*

*Firstly, that teacher would NEVER take the responsiblity of a relationship with the boy. And in reverse a male would never take responsiblity. Who would want the guy to? He's only using the child for sexual gratification. I wouldn't want such a person near my child or if my child had a child by such a person. One could sue for financial assistance, but how would one get it if the perpetrator is in prison?*

*Yes, I believe in the biological imperative in the following sense, and society follows this when selecting the "cut off dates" in the law but there is far more to that. It has to do with INTELLECTUAL/PSYCHOLOGICAL/EMOTIONAL MATURITY:*

1. All you say above is true but
2. Also, men, full of testosterone as you all mention 8) -- and I don't mind that at all -- are more likely to be "sexual predators". As I mentioned somewhere, pedophiles are more likely to be men, that is older/adult men who prey on male prebubescent girls and boys.

A 14 year old boy would not be the "normal" target of an older woman's affections, or even lust -- when carried through. As Jimmy Carter said, "You can have lust in your heart, but you don't have to act upon it." (something like that). An adult is expected to control him/herself when dealing with children.

There are also more male serial killers who not only rape, but murder women, and boys as well. (The statistics at Quantico keep changing but I believe this is relatively current... I can look it up.)

3. I can see *in this SPECIFIC case* -- what little I know of the full details that this woman is not going to be a repeat offender or if she is ultimately they'll throw her in prison. I see her as less of a threat than a man, yes. But not for the reasons you're saying.

*Children, Minors, DO GET HARMED -- and there are degrees of harm. We must assume the definition of "child or minor" in this case, and I believe 18 is the age we believe a child has become an adult. I think that's fair*

Girls who are molested by their fathers or their mother's boyfriend, who THINK it's consensual, who BELIEVE they brought it on themselves and are ashamed, who are threatened in some way -- that's causing harm. * I can't believe that boys aren't equally confused. Using a minor for sexual pleaure is harmful. Yes.*

As I said, I think a lot of you guys have had the fantasy at 12, 13, 14 of having sex with a teacher. As I said, I had a major love crush on an older male teacher who was 10 years my senior when I was 16.

At that age, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 and younger obviously ... I DO NOT BELIEVE that minors have the proper judgement to understand the full implications of what is happening to them. The average teacher would not act on feelings like this, it is an exception to what any adult would feel.

This woman was manipulative and took advantage of this boy's ignorance and desires. Where was this relationship going to go? And what confusion does he experience now as a result of this? Self blame, humiliation, the fear of testifying in court. *At some point he must see he's being USED, as an object. A sexual object. Or this will become clearer to him as he gets a bit older. Again, shame, humiliation, guilt ... *

We know that young people have a very different psychological makeup from adults. The brain has another growth spurt in adolescence, and kids just aren't as mature, they don't understand or believe in the consequences of their actions.

Why are parents so concerned about their kids having sex with peers, with smoking, with taking drugs. Kids think they are impervious to things. It's up to adults to help minors make proper decisions. It is harmful to encourage minors to act in ways that are against their best long-term interests.

Just because a boy wants sex with his teacher doesn't make this right. Just because I had a serious crush on my teacher at 16, wouldn't make it right if he did anything to me ... even though some would say 16 is "more mature." It's not... I was 16.... long, long, ago!

A male teacher, who has the hots for a female student under a legal age is equally culpable. Both are irresponsible. It doesn't matter if a girl can get pregnant. Both minors can be confused/hurt psychologically, and be at the mercy of adult manipulation. Lets not even get into STDs and rest.

I keep hammering on about this.

*I think it was harmful. Yes. The adult uses the child as an object. There can be no relationship. It is sex for sex' sake.*

Now to see if all these quote things are in order, OY!
Best,
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

And I also agree with what Homeskooled said. Men are attracted to different things -- again due to a biological imperative. Women to other things.

It just IS. It's neither bad nor good. It just IS.

Why are there so many male pornographic magazines and none if any for women? Why are their prostitutes for men, but very few for women? This isn't a societal construct. Prostitution is the oldest profession. Men want sex for sex' sake. They also want relationships. But biologically they have different urges.

(And no, I'm not saying there aren't exceptions. I have to laugh at the old "Playgirl" magazine that was out when I was a teen/college student) It got boring to look at after awhile, and the thing went out of business.

That isn't what turns women on. Men and women are different.

Biological imperative.
Finito! 8)


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

*USA by State:
Female/Male ----- Male/Male ----- Female/Female *
Alabama
16 illegal illegal 
Alaska 16 16 16 
Arizona 18 illegal illegal 
Arkansas 16 illegal illegal 
California 18 18 18 
Colorado 17 17 17 
Connecticut 16 no current law no current law 
District of C. 16 no current law no current law 
Delaware 16 (f)18 (m) no current law no current law 
*Florida 18* illegal illegal 
Georgia 16 16 16 
*Hawaii 14* :shock: no current law no current law 
Idaho 16 (f) 18 (m) illegal illegal 
Illinois 17 17 17 
Indiana 16 16 16 
Iowa 14(f) 18(m) no current law no current law 
Kansas 16 illegal illegal 
Kentucky 16 no current law no current law 
Louisiana 17 illegal (under appeal) illegal (under appeal) 
Maine 16 16 16 
Maryland 16 no current law no current law 
Massachusetts 16 (f) 18 (m) illegal illegal 
Michigan 16 illegal illegal 
Minnesota 16 illegal illegal 
Mississippi 16 illegal illegal 
Missouri 17 illegal illegal 
Montana 16 (f) 18 (m) 18 18 
Nebraska 17 no current law no current law 
Nevada 16 18 18 
New Hampshire 16 18 18 
New Jersey 16 16 16 
New Mexico 17 16 16 
New York 17 17 17 
North Carolina 16 illegal illegal 
North Dakota 18 18 18 
Ohio 16 no current law no current law 
Oklahoma 16 illegal illegal 
Oregon 18 18 18 
Pennsylvania 16 16 16 
Rhode Island 16 no current law no current law 
South Carolina 14 (f) 16 (m) illegal illegal 
South Dakota 16 no current law no current law 
Tennessee 18 no current law no current law 
Texas 17 illegal illegal 
Utah 16 - f 18 (m) illegal illegal 
Vermont 16 no current law no current law 
Virginia 18 illegal illegal 
Washington 16 16 16 
West Virginia 16 no current law no current law 
Wisconsin 18 18 18 
Wyoming 16 (f) 18 (m) no current law no current law

US Military 16 don't ask, don't tell don't ask, don't tell 
USA Citizen Outside the USA 18 no current law no current law

*I can't put this in order. The first number has to do with the age considered as consensual. This varies very much by state and in some states by girls vs. boys. Goes to show you the law isn't consistent and is having trouble deciding what is a good age for consensus. Surprised that it IS 14 in Hawaii. As we know it is 18 in Florida, the state trying the case in question.

This post may look screwy, sorry.*


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_Rape

Excellent Wikipedia examination of statutory rape. The verdict is not easily determined. Mary Kay Latourneau was the other woman I couldn't think of. She ultimately married the boy she had sex with (her student) and they had a child if I'm not mistaken.

That is unusual, but I find her unusual as well. The young man seems to be doing fine.

I'm still surprised that 14 is the age of consent in Hawaii. That seems young to me.


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

Where do you guys get that agentcooper looks like Teri Garr? That woman gets on my last nerve for some reason. Her big, smiling goofy face is on the cover of my new Allure. :?


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

> Hawaii 14 :shock: no current law no current law


and they wonder why my highschool has the highest pregnancy rate in the nation for like the past 15 years, and 99% of the pregnant girls were/are native hawaiians. which if you look at the percentage of native hawaiians in the nation 0.1% , then you go :shock: !!!!


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## agentcooper (Mar 10, 2005)

"Utah 16 - f 18 (m) illegal illegal "

god...i love my state :?

i'm pretty sure utah's teen pregnancy rate is pretty high, as well.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Well the statistics are bad all over the country. And this is peer/peer sex not statutory rape. Here in Michigan we've got a high teen birth rate and the consensual sex age is 18, but that doesn't mean anything, peer with peer sex is OK, i.e. a 17 year old boy can have sex with a 14 year old girl.

These sexual encounters are consensual.. most of them... to my knowledge.

No condoms, high STD rates, etc. Young kids DON'T make good decisions especially if they are in marginalized situations -- very low class -- no father, etc.,etc.

These figures are the consenting age for a child to have sex with an adult. In Hawaii a 14 year old can have sex with an adult. THAT surprised me... or rather an adult male can have sex with a 14 year old girl. I think peers are the cause of the pregnancy rate, not statutory rape.

D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

That chart is confusing.... it should be.....

Age of consent adult with minor

Utah:

Male/Female sex: age 16 a FEMALE is consdered an adult, an 18 year old MALE is considered an adult. There's a double standard within that state then. MALES are considered less responsible than females there.

Male/Male sex: is illegal at any age in Utah
Female/Female sex: is illegal at any age in Utah.

That makes sense considering the Mormon influence I'd gather.

In Hawaii:

Age of consent WITH AN ADULT is 14!
There are no laws re: gay or lesbian relationships on the books.

I my state of Michigan 18 is considered ADULT. Hasn't made a dent in teenage preganancy. AGAIN, this is peer/peer sex causing pregnancy.

The age given is age of consensual sex between minor and ADULT.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

http://www.coolnurse.com/consent.htm

Link to the chart and statutory rape info.... makes more sense.



> An estimated 80% of people who have been raped knew the person who raped them. Women ages 15 to 25 are the most frequent victims. Rape is not about sex to the rapist; it has to do with control and power.


It's a site for young people.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

OK, after getting COMPLETELY carried away with this, researching teen pregnancy rates in the US and asking myself, WTHell am I doing, I come to answer the question:

*Sebastian:*
Was the boy at all harmed?

*Dreamer's Answer:*
That is irrelevant. He may or may not have been. The point is this teacher broke a law that was agreed upon by The People of the State of Florida.

Other States have varying laws that we are all bound by. There is constant wrangling over this stuff, but it is determined on a State by State basis.

His "desire", his testosterone level, his potential maturity for a 14 year old doesn't figure here.

It is POSSIBLE he was harmed psychologically. We don't know enough IN THIS CASE.

However, I agree that the age of consensual sex should be 18. We can vote at 18. BUT MINORS MUST EARN THE RIGHT TO THAT PRIVILEDGE.

I find it interesting that here in Michigan the drinking age is 21. Why? Kids are irresponsible. More kids die in drunk driving crashes than you can shake a stick at. Boys are agressive, irresponsible drivers... far moreso than girls and that is reflected in insurance premiums.

*The child's "apparent maturity" -- determined by an individual's POV that doesn't agree with the law -- does not mitigate the law. The teacher broke the law. It is assumed the child was harmed. The teacher confessed to breaking the law.

Lesson: Don't have sex with a minor. It's stupid and is punishable by law, and should be. Age of "adulthood" -- I don't know the answer to that. But adults of 21+ certainly have more sense (in theory) than 14 year olds, etc.*

8)


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

This issue is a sore point for you eh? I understand.



Dreamer said:


> BUT MINORS MUST EARN THE RIGHT TO THAT PRIVILEDGE


You mean earn the priviledge to have sex at a younger age? If yes, how and why should this be possible?



Dreamer said:


> But adults of 21+ certainly have more sense (in theory) than 14 year olds, etc.


Yes, that is the issue. 21 is better than 14. I guess the law tries to avoid certain problems (like teen pregnancy).


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

I wanted to get more involved in this thread but new internet policies at my work have forbade it. In short, I agree with a lot of what you're saying Dreamer, and the way you explain it helped clear things up for me. Obviously, for the law to be an effective method of instituting order, it has to be consistent, and cannot be dealt with on a case by case basis. I'm not sure where i'd make the Age of Consent if it was up to me to make the law. I think it's 14 in Canada, or at least Ontario. That does seem a little young to me.



Dreamer said:


> *Sebastian:*
> Was the boy at all harmed?
> 
> *Dreamer's Answer:*
> That is irrelevant. He may or may not have been. The point is this teacher broke a law that was agreed upon by The People of the State of Florida.


Yes, but the implied point with this is to debate whether the law is fair or not.

I guess a wider issue which i'm also trying to address here is the stigma of being sexually attracted to teenagers. For example, i find myself attracted to some girls who are 16 or 17. Is this wrong just because society tells me it is? People always go on about emotional development, and how teens aren't as emotionally developed as adults, but if these same people could see some of the women i've dated in the past, they'd have a whole new barometer of "emotional development". I know 20 year olds who are infinitely more mature than women in my own age group.

In short, i do agree with what you were saying about a lot of what was talked about here regarding the law and how it was applied to this woman. I read most of this thread last week so i don't remember a lot of it now, but i do recall being impressed and convinced.

s.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

sebastian said:


> Yes, but the implied point with this is to debate whether the law is fair or not.
> 
> I guess a wider issue which i'm also trying to address here is the *stigma of being sexually attracted to teenagers. For example, i find myself attracted to some girls who are 16 or 17. Is this wrong just because society tells me it is?* People always go on about emotional development, and how teens aren't as emotionally developed as adults, but if these same people could see some of the women i've dated in the past, they'd have a whole new barometer of "emotional development". I know 20 year olds who are infinitely more mature than women in my own age group.


Sebastain,
Interesting. My first response to this is, your desires are irrelevant in society today which has determined those desires are illegal.

However society is never static, it is ever changing, as is the world,nations, etc. There are reasons as I said that particular ages are chosen.

But it is interesting that you use the word stigma in referring to your attraction to these younger women.

I would say, the biological imperative of men is to inseminate women. And you are in your 30s yes? You are still a young, virile male, yes? And as your biological prerogative sp? you are necessarily attracted to young, healthy females to create babies. In a world without societal constraints on age, with all of us chasing bison in loincloths, the age busines IS irrelevant.

But it is 2005. Your desires for SEX with these younger women, your ATTRACTION to them is "normal." I think a lot of men feel this way. But the lower you go in age, the more unnacceptable it becomes, even to other men ... depends on the country/society/culture, but I'm saying the Western World right now for lack of a better example.

The concern is ... what could you, an educated 30 year old man, have in common with a 16 year old girl who is still in high school? If you were to have a long term relationship with her.... well you couldn't. She still lives with her parents, is learning algebra! LOL. Your intent, unless she were a genius or something, must be contrued that you simply want to have sex with her. And I assume this is the case.

If you have had sex with a 16 year old girl, have you ever considered a long term committment? Wouldn't you prefer the intellectual stimulation of someone closer to your age/experience/education level, etc.

Your intent, as I see it, is YES you're attracted to these girls, that is normal as a MALE (forget that crazy woman for a minute, LOL), you want to have SEX, you want to inseminate.... I know, I know you don't want to in real life, and there are contraceptives these days.... but in days of yore, you would want to make her pregnant. And she would size you up to determine if you'd be a good genetic match, and a good provider.

But in this century, society has changed. The role of men and women are still dictated by raising a family... and it is a desire of most people... a strong desire.

Adults dating and having short term consensual sex is one thing. But a 30 year old male having sex with a girl in highschool... I won't even say an age.... well, the assumption is you only want sex, and it is assumed that the girl doesn't know what she wants.... and I'd buy both of those things. Also, the girl will be less likely to be sensible about the thing.

(On the other hand at 2 days from 47, I am amazingly insane when it comes to romance and acting like an adult.)

When you say you are attracted to a 20 year old. I say, "OK"... that's fine. She's an adult. She is responsible for what she chooses to do.

But again, your personal experience that some women your age are less.... interesting, mature... than 16 year olds you've met is likely more the BIG exception than the rule. Why is the 16 year old still in school, needing supervision by her parents. Etc.

Well, I think I've babbled enough again.

But the point is.... there may be some very mature young women out there, but don't mess with the age limit. You can lust, but don't act. That shouldn't be difficult to do. If it is, you have a problem that you need to examine.

Age 20 for a woman and age 30 for a man sounds OK to me. And such an age difference can often be much bigger ... the man much older. And marriages can be a result of said unions. But the woman should be an ADULT.

And if you want her just for sex. Fine. She has to understand that too, accept the various consequences of it, and be responsible.

OK, end of lecture.
Instincts are deep within our genes, society is not static, it changes, and these things collide and conflict, but there is a reason for certain rules or even "guidelines". In this case, they make sense. I'd say 18-20 should be considered an adult. And even then it makes my knees shake.

D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Forgot one last thing, right.... :roll:

In many/most cultures there are "rites of passage" for both boys and girls. Bar/batmitzvah, Quinceria sp?, what is it in the Church... not communion... oh Hell... anyway, I'd say all cultures have an age where a "child" becomes an "adult" and at the celebration of that "passage" the child must indicate a level of maturity.

It seems to coincide to a degree with sexual maturity and intellectual maturity. Good grief in some cultures girls get pregnant at 8. (Many young girls can get their period that early) ... does THAT mean they're ready for sex? :shock:

And cultures also frown upon "taking women" too early. And biologically it makes sense ... the reason why pedophilia is so disgusting to people... is a young girl of 5 or 6 cannot have a child, and the child is indeed being used purely as an object. Obviously the same with a little boy.

But I think the bottom line is all cultures need to maintain ORDER, and this is why we have LAWS. There has to be some structure to what is "right" and what is "wrong" -- it can't be arbitrary -- or there'd be anarchy with each person making his/her own laws as they go.

And of course criminals do that all the time.

Using a minor for sex alone is very different from truly being attracted to an adult to have both a sexual and social relationship. One involves power over the minor, the other involves consensual pleasure with someone who can appreciate the consequences of his/her actions and take full responsiblity for them.

Never said people take responsibility anyway... but that is yet another thesis.


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## agentcooper (Mar 10, 2005)

sebastian said:


> I guess a wider issue which i'm also trying to address here is the stigma of being sexually attracted to teenagers. For example, i find myself attracted to some girls who are 16 or 17. Is this wrong just because society tells me it is?
> 
> s.


i don't think society tells you it's wrong to find 16 and 17 yr olds attractive. in fact, i'm quite sure most men would admit to finding younger women attractive. it's acting on the attraction that society says is wrong. i would tend to agree with society on this one. even if a 16 yr old is very mature for her/his age, they are still only 16. they would be much easier to take advantage of, and also much more impressionable (therefore, more likely to be harmed). of course there are exceptions to this, but why take any chances?


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

What agentcooper said! 8)

I need an editor.


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

Dreamer said:


> I would say, the biological imperative of men is to inseminate women. D


Gee, you make it sound so appealing. i think i'll use that next time i try to pick up a woman..."Hello, my name is sebastian. I would like to inseminate you."

I sort of agree with a lot of what you are both saying. I wish i could write more on this but they're really cracking down at my work here and i hate typing while looking over my shoulder. Basically, I just don't see sex as a bad thing as long as it's consensual. I would say that any age of consent, however, should be lowered or raised to 16, as the case may be (and no, i'm not saying this because there's someone in particular i'm interested in). And i only use that age because that's about the age where i start to find girls sexually attractive, and i think it's ludicrous to pretend that i don't just because the majority of society seem to think that 18 is a more palatable age to use as Age of Consent.

Don't get me wrong, by the way...it isn't that i prefer younger women as a rule. I'm attracted to all kinds of women for all kinds of different reasons...it's just that there are no laws regarding me dating older women.

Sorry for these lame responses. I shouldn't even write anything if it's going to be hurried and i have to do it surreptitiously. I hate this job. :evil: 

s.


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

Sure it's insemination. Nature brings us both together for this reason. The species must continue. Nature's cheque. But why say no, since we are only an expression of nature itself?

Irrelevant with the age thing, but relevant with sex.


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Dear Sebastian, 
Dreamer wrote:

I would say, the biological imperative of men is to inseminate women.

Gee, you make it sound so appealing. i think i'll use that next time i try to pick up a woman..."Hello, my name is sebastian. I would like to inseminate you."

Haha....I'm afraid it doesnt work, Sebastian. The girl at the computer next to me just looked at my screen, and she just looked very askance at me....

Dreamer wrote:

What agentcooper said!

I need an editor.

Yes, although I agree with almost all your points, I have to concur with this one as well!

:wink:

Now Sebastian, when is Martin returning so we can have our theological debate to end all theological debates?

Peace
Homeskooled


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

Homeskooled said:


> Dear Sebastian,
> Dreamer wrote:
> 
> I would say, the biological imperative of men is to inseminate women.
> ...


I don't know. I've actually started a post on it (but have yet to post it) but it's taking longer than i'd thought to convince someone of the existence of God. I'll post it on Sunday. Hopefully Martin is back by then.


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## agentcooper (Mar 10, 2005)

Homeskooled said:


> Gee, you make it sound so appealing. i think i'll use that next time i try to pick up a woman..."Hello, my name is sebastian. I would like to inseminate you."
> 
> Haha....I'm afraid it doesnt work, Sebastian. The girl at the computer next to me just looked at my screen, and she just looked very askance at me....


i don't know, it made me a little tingly, when i read it. :wink:


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Dear Agentcooper, 
Well, maybe I should be typing on a computer next to _you_ then, because I had hopes of asking this girl out. She's been eyeing me every time I come into the university library, and this time sat down right next to me. (I think she's a student librarian from India ). Now thanks to bloody Sebastian....You are all sick, sick, twisted, people! Well, I'm off to post on the Does Size matter thread....

Peace
Homeskooled


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

From now on I'm going to put a big banner over my bed that reads:

"Insemination Nation"


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