# I feel like you just try to give people FALSE hopes



## Cheese (Jun 1, 2012)

I'm sorry. It had to be said. I am a new member here, and I have been doing extensive research on this monstrous illness DP/DR (which by the way I regard as one of the worst things ever, it beats depression and physical anxiety by a long run, at least those sufferers have a sense of reality.)

It is by far the hardest thing I have been dealing with. My memory is non existent, and my concentration is so bad, I used to be such a good reader but now it seems I can't even read paragraphs anymore.

Without straying from the main point, the point in me making this thread is basically because I have noticed that new members will come on this site with their issues of DP/DR and everyone on here, on youtube, and on all DP/DR communities seem to say that this ailment is temporary and will eventually go away.

However, when you do further research of people who have it, lots (and most) people I have found have had it for 5+ years with no avail 24/7. In other words, in my own research, it seems as though when this disorder is triggered, it is very likely that it is permanent.

It has only been about a month for me but I have lost hope. Despite my strong effort to keep up prayer/meditation, exercise which involved rigorous cardio, swimming, and basketball. Use of omega fish oil supplements etc. AND on top of that I distract myself with socializing/video games. This thing is still with me *FULL FORCE*, not getting any better since it was first triggered (after too much marijuana) and doesn't seem to be getting any better. I also have been fully sober since it was first triggered.

I have seen recovery stories but it seems as though they are very small compared to those who it stayed with for years. I don't understand how I will be able to pass my ocllege classes with this heavy distortion in the back of my head. Feel as though my life has been sucked away by ONE marijuana session and this has been hitting me hard for about 1 month.

Each day I wake up and briefly open my eyes hoping it has gone, but am only met with this way weird looking room that I was so used to before my marijuana session.

In short, I think that people here tell others that this is temporary and it will go away when in fact they should be telling them to except their (unlucky) fate and prepare to get used to this thing for the rest of their lives (if not many years).

I think the only way I will snap out of this thing is if I take a mind bending psychadelic drug such as Iboga which will snap me out of my derealization. I might add that I have no symptoms of DP but rather intense symptoms of DR, to the point of where I feel I stoned 24/7, my memory used to be so good it is now COMPLETELY wiped out and my ability to concentrate is equivalent to that of a mentally deficient horse. I literally read a page of a book and forget what I just read.

This thing is ruining my life and thinking that it will be with me forever and if I am LUCKY (for like 3+ years), really is saddening. I am only 18 and I want to enjoy my youth (without drugs and alcohol from now on) and I was so unlucky to contract this thing despite my herculean efforts to fix it (praying/meditation, supplements, socializing, basketball/swimming/cardio) and as I said is still hitting me hard full force, just as it was day one about 30 days ago.


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## MIndfAEL (Mar 13, 2012)

it sucks but its the truth.i am reluctant to use the word permanent though cause who knows what the future will bring with treatment. There may be a cure eventually. I am only 18 also so we have a long time time for it to be researched. and at least u only experience dr i experience both.


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## Cheese (Jun 1, 2012)

mmarcus said:


> it sucks but its the truth.i am reluctant to use the word permanent though cause who knows what the future will bring with treatment. There may be a cure eventually. I am only 18 also so we have a long time time for it to be researched. and at least u only experience dr i experience both.


In my opinion, there seriously needs to be a huge CHANGE in how the United States treats DRUG EDUCATION in the United States. Throughout High School, all my drug education and Anti-drug classes I partook in, listed the dangers of Marijuana as making one "Lazy, lethargic, and un-motivated" That didn't sound so bad to me.

They never told me what would really happen to me, like "its going to essentially ruin your life, giving you a perception of reality so far off that you will hate yourself."

Psychadelics seriously need to get the "harmless" label taken off of them and DR/DP should be incorporated in DRUG AWARENESS programs across the nation.


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## californian (Jul 24, 2006)

Cheese said:


> I'm sorry. It had to be said. I am a new member here, and I have been doing extensive research on this monstrous illness DP/DR (which by the way I regard as one of the worst things ever, it beats depression and physical anxiety by a long run, at least those sufferers have a sense of reality.)
> 
> It is by far the hardest thing I have been dealing with. My memory is non existent, and my concentration is so bad, I used to be such a good reader but now it seems I can't even read paragraphs anymore.
> 
> ...


Dude, Sorry if you've seen my posts elsewhere and I don't want to sound like a broken record, but...

I'm not going to sell you some BS that it'll all for sure go away and you won't ever have to worry about it again.

But there are plenty of treatment options that can help life be much more manageable and enjoyable. I've had DP/DR on and off for 20 years. But I love life and am a successful person with a wife and two great kids. You can be too. Don't give in.

There are a lot of things you can do that will help you feel better, a lot better. I remember the first few months, I felt pretty horrible and hopeless. I was convinced I was going insane.

Klonopin was one thing that revolutionized my life. Regular exercise regimens are others. Other people find relief from different meds and cognitive treatments.

It's a fight man. But this isn't an all or nothing thing. It isn't all about either being 100% better or in constant hell. Feel free to ask more if you want to hear more about what's helped me. But i want to assure you that there are a large number of options out there man. I know, and I've researched the heck out of this thing.

Best to you,


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## Amelie (Jul 24, 2007)

I hear you, Cheese. It's been over 30 years for me, with not one SINGLE moment free of DP/DR, and I get irritated, too, when I see/hear comments about how it's temporary, don't dwell on it, it'll go away, blah blah blah. Um, no--definitely not the case for everyone. It's been INTENSE, severe, chronic, 24/7 for me since I was 17. I've tried every kind of psychotherapy, both with psychiatrists and other psychology experts, including those who specialize in dissociative disorders, dozens and dozens of prescription drugs plus various OTC supplements that other people have had good results with, all to absolutely no avail. If I had ten million dollars I'd give every last cent of it if I could just be rid of the DP/DR.

When my DP/DR first hit, I really was immobilized by it. I had NO idea what had happened--and keep in mind this was long before the Internet, so there was no such thing as searching the web for answers. I went for 19 years being misdiagnosed (I was continually told that my problem was depression). *I* finally hit on the correct diagnosis myself. If you read some of my other posts you'll see that it took 9 years after its onset before I finally worked up the nerve to try going to college despite the DP/DR. I honestly don't know that I could have done it earlier, because in its earliest days I was so lost and scared and bewildered by this weird THING that had happened, and I felt brain dead, like I couldn't think straight...I just don't think I would've succeeded if I had tried sooner. But when I did finally go to college, I did succeed.







So maybe RIGHT NOW you're not ready for it, but later on you will be. There's no law that says college students MUST be in a certain age range!


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## rob (Aug 22, 2004)

38 years of acute DP/DR for me and counting.

There has been no remission for me - sometimes it gets worse but sure as hell does not get better.

Emotions, memory, concentration, cognition all shot to hell.

My advice - don't relinquish control over ALL aspects of your life while you wait, perhaps in vain, to get better. Despite the seemingly crushing nature of DP, there are many areas of your life over which you still have full reign.

Do all the things you think you would have done but for the DP. However bad you feel, you can in fact cope with anything if you're brave enough to risk failure. This sounds a bit evangelical I know .. but you get the gist I'm sure.

I waited 15 years before going to college which was a waste. Eventually emerged from Cambridge with a first class law degree (still like to brag about that!), became a lawyer, then a partner and then founded my own law practice. I married, bought a house, had kids and, from a purely selfish perspective, my life was much richer as a result.

Sounds like the cheesy old American Dream but, in reality, I adopted a very conventional lifestyle as a way of grounding myself and preserving what life I could from the clutches of my illness. There is much satisfaction to be harvested even from a life blighted by DP. It feels good to have money, stable family relationships and a place in the world even when you have DP.

That said, there are many days when this horrible condition nearly brings me to my knees and never a day goes by without my wondering what life might have been like without DP.

I am an optimist by nature. I am not being defeatist when I tell you that I don't think that my DP will ever go away. Ironically, life became easier for me when I accepted that my DP was permanent because I spent time getting on with what life remained to me instead of obsessing over finding a cure.

That's just me - everyone is different. There is no right or indeed wrong way to deal with this distressing and bewildering condition.

In fairness, I should also tell you that I have met several people, in person, who have drifted in and out of DP at various times in their lives. Their stories tend to negate my own somewhat gloomy prognosis.

Good luck.


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## Amelie (Jul 24, 2007)

Rob, your story sounds SO MUCH like mine, it's amazing. At some points I found myself thinking, did *I* write this?! I've said in other posts that once I accepted the DP/DR wasn't going anywhere--and this was WAY before I had an actual diagnosis--I decided not to let it dictate my life. Like you, I went on with doing the things I would've done if I had still been 'normal.' As I've said in my other posts, this is NOT to imply that it was easy, or that the dissociation wasn't a problem, but rather that it was WORTH any discomfort the DP/DR created. There's a certain satisfaction in knowing that I didn't ALLOW it to paralyze me.


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## MichaelH77 (May 2, 2012)

When it comes to people who got DP do to drug use, I don't know anything about it.
But as for me, mine is Psychological. It started last year in May and I've posted about it several times on here.
Basically I've always been EXTREMELY emotionally attached to my mom and she was always home with me ever since I started an online cyberschool back in 8th grade (2006).

It was May 2011 last year when I graduated my online cyberschool and didn't know what to do. My mom had also just gotten a job. I didn't know whether to go to college somewhere or do it online (due to social anxiety).

I began to panic and was extremely sad. I tried to calm myself down and told myself everything would be alright and that I could go to college online, but it's like a part of me just wouldn't listen.

I began to get angry due to trying not to lose control as well as my mom getting angry at me about not being able to make a decision about what to do.

I felt trapped in my own life and alone and sad.

June 1 I woke up and didn't feel right mentally. I had depersonalization
It's been a year (now june 4, 2012).

And my dp is still here. I know it's an emotional issue but it can never be worked out.
I constantly panic, feel sad deep down, get angry etc...

And I can't stop...


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## noname (Sep 23, 2008)

OP is right, but you can't say ppl give false hope here, it's a long time now this forum have abandonned to rely the "hope", you can't dismiss that... 
You read what you want to read, but I can say to you than just compared to 5/6 years before (when my DP beginned), the forum was far more hopefull than now, trusting scam like linden method, trying to find tips for a hypothetical recovery, ect...

The forum now seem to be far more about alternating beetween "I can't take that anymore" threads and "How to live with chronic DP" than some years ago.

Generally it seem the same tendency can be found on mental health board thru the web, ie to lose hope compared to some year ago, simply due to the fact more and more ppl from all age come to share their experience about their mental health problem, wich often stay with them for long time if not all their life, so ppl begin are more and more in contact with the notion of chronicity and understand that problem are sometime not just temporary.
Research we can find on the web and new theory of mental health problem wich is more and more about brain damage or neuronal loss than purely psychological stuff or "chemical imbalance"(implying that mental problem is not something always "changeable with effort" or simply about "take this med, get better") seem to only aggravate the state of things.

The basic issue wich interest me the more about this is "what is hope". I mean, we can play forever with the notion of hope, hopelessness, being negative, but I find that whatever worst case scenario we agree with or we generate, there is always a kind of sensation of internal hope wich stay with us, like a kind of inside light. 
A discret inside emotion wich is not forcibly rationnalizable with fact or logical reasoning, wich is not forcibly relied to our condition or to external things like progress in medical scientific research or whatever, basically like detached from common life sense. I bet you can find that even in the most miserably depressive person. Perhaps it's on this that we should more concentrate.


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## doritocakes (May 20, 2012)

Cheese said:


> In my opinion, there seriously needs to be a huge CHANGE in how the United States treats DRUG EDUCATION in the United States. Throughout High School, all my drug education and Anti-drug classes I partook in, listed the dangers of Marijuana as making one "Lazy, lethargic, and un-motivated" That didn't sound so bad to me.
> 
> They never told me what would really happen to me, like "its going to essentially ruin your life, giving you a perception of reality so far off that you will hate yourself."
> 
> Psychadelics seriously need to get the "harmless" label taken off of them and DR/DP should be incorporated in DRUG AWARENESS programs across the nation.


Ughhh this is why I HATE when people say weed is "harmless" and "you can't get addicted to it" and "no side-effects!" I was like ORLY? I had an ex who was a pothead and he used to say crap like that all the time. I punched him and walked away.


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## californian (Jul 24, 2006)

doritocakes said:


> Ughhh this is why I HATE when people say weed is "harmless" and "you can't get addicted to it" and "no side-effects!" I was like ORLY? I had an ex who was a pothead and he used to say crap like that all the time. I punched him and walked away.


What is amazing to me is that if you try explaining this to people they often act like you are some stupid American anti-drug propagandist. Like you are resurrecting lies from the "Reefer madness" days.

And yet 1/3 of the people on here got it from weed. Something has to change.


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## Amelie (Jul 24, 2007)

Fearless said:


> It's easier to beleive that it's "permanent" and "incurable", because then you can continue to play the victim. THAT is the harsh truth.


That's quite a quantum leap, isn't it? I, for one, went on a MULTI-DECADE quest to get rid of this fucking DP/DR, never wanting to believe that it was permanent and incurable. Frankly, I couldn't IMAGINE that it could be permanent and incurable. I simply couldn't wrap my head around that concept. Every prescription I took, every therapy session I went to, every book I read, EVERYTHING I did was with the idea that if I worked hard enough, tried hard enough, was determined enough, it would go away. IT DIDN'T.

And, by the way, *I* have never played the victim. I FORCED myself to do the things I intended to do in life, like be a parent, go to college, have a demanding career, if I had been 'normal' and the DP/DR wasn't part of my life. I'd hardly call that playing the victim...


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## sunflowersteve (Apr 24, 2012)

with an attitude like that there's no way it'll get better. dude it's been one month, how the fuck do you know it's permanent. you don't. hell, even if you've had it for as long has you remember what's the point of giving up hope. it's better to live the last month of your life without this shit than your whole life with it.

some people have this shit for as long as they do because they let it

and sure there is the very small percentage of people that will have this for life because of different reasons but for them, theres still hope in a miracle drug. i know it's horrible for those people and i truly feel sorry for them but the truth is many people HAVE recovered from this just look around, and theres also many people who are getting better, slowly but surely

so all i have to say is that it will get better with time if you want it.

and for people who have no relief and honestly believe this is permanent, well i'm sorry and i don't want to offend you.

i just hope that people who can get better get the help that they need in order to get better


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## californian (Jul 24, 2006)

I ~love~ how so many people on here think their experience is something they can universalize to everyone else.

People need to stop reducing everyone else to a version of themselves, it's garbage. Everyone's experience is unique.

1) Telling everyone it is incurable is unhelpful and depressing.

2) Telling everyone it is curable if you just do ____, _____, and ____ like "awesome me," is also unhelpful and depressing.

People need to let people be, share their experiences and realize not everything is going to work the same for everybody.


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## Thidwick (May 30, 2012)

Cheese said:


> In other words, in my own research, it seems as though when this disorder is triggered, it is very likely that it is permanent.


And this is why you won't recover. You and half of the people on this board are too busy having a pity party to realize that this is not permanent. DP/DR feeds entirely on fear -- you are afraid of it, and that is what keeps the cycle going. That doesn't mean that you'll be instantly better once you adopt the mindset that you'll recover. It's hard not to give up hope. But your mind has implemented this as a coping mechanism against some sort of fear in your life, and by freaking out you're telling your mind that you need to be further detached from reality.


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## Amelie (Jul 24, 2007)

Fearless said:


> and you still haven't considered the idea that the fact that you maintain the concept of DP is what is not allowing you to get rid of "it"?


This makes no sense. I didn't even know WHAT I had when I started seeking treatment for it--I was misdiagnosed for YEARS as being depressed. So how, exactly, was I maintaining the concept of DP if I didn't even know what it was?



> don't try to get rid of DP, try to figure out what are the fears you need to face.


Gee, I wish I had thought of that! Oh, wait...I DID think of that! That's why I spent tens of thousands of dollars on therapy trying to figure out what the core issues were. Silly me.



> or keep giving me dislikes and stay where you are.


Whatever.

*



face your fears and take risks. you have no idea how great your life can be.

Click to expand...

*I guess you haven't read my other posts on this forum. You ought to...


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## Fluke93 (Nov 2, 2010)

"I ~love~ how so many people on here think their experience is something they can universalize to everyone else.

People need to stop reducing everyone else to a version of themselves, it's garbage. Everyone's experience is unique.

1) Telling everyone it is incurable is unhelpful and depressing.

2) Telling everyone it is curable if you just do ____, _____, and ____ like "awesome me," is also unhelpful and depressing.

People need to let people be, share their experiences and realize not everything is going to work the same for everybody."

Yeah i agree someone needs to tell that to the new dickhead on the forum who claims i can recover and never expect DP again.


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## Fluke93 (Nov 2, 2010)

Fearless said:


> another great analogy one can use to escape responsibility. "They may be responsible but my DP is different."


You're an idiot by far. You just don't have a clue do you?


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## daydreambeliever (Jun 15, 2011)

Fearless said:


> and you still haven't considered the idea that the fact that you maintain the concept of DP is what is not allowing you to get rid of "it"?
> 
> don't try to get rid of DP, try to figure out what are the fears you need to face. or keep giving me dislikes and stay where you are.
> 
> *face your fears and take risks. you have no idea how great your life can be.*


Wow. Mr. Know it all. We who have had dp for over 30 years have faced many if not all of our fears. And what good does that do may I ask? I am another person who is learning to live with it. I even use marijuana in small doses to alleviate depression and anxiety! 1/4 to 1/2 t. brownie. I take a xanax once in a while and go to therapy twice a week. I eat no refined food. Don't drink, smoke, or do any other drugs, including indoor grown, non-organic, too strong weed. Get plenty of exercise, sleep, water, vitamins, etc. It's a bitch but life is even worse when I don't stay with it.

While this increases the quality of my life it does nothing to get rid of the constant dp I have had for over 30 years. Thank goodness I quit trying to cure myself and decided to try to enjoy the rest of my life. I think there is possibly 2 kinds of dpd, may be more. I too was misdiagnosed with bipolar disorder for the first 16 years. Even as a child my life had a dream like quality. I have been told I have suffered trauma but I don't remember any. I do feel terrible pain easily over sad situations. I think I am a HSP. Anyone else?


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## californian (Jul 24, 2006)

Fearless said:


> another great analogy one can use to escape responsibility. "They may be responsible but my DP is different."


And this shows precisely what you fail to recognize. Responsibility is about yourself. Imposing that on others is judgment.

Because the thing is, you don't know anything about me. In fact, I'm someone who, while having had numerous DPD flare-ups over the past 20 years has always been able to pull myself out of it through exercise, meds, meditation/prayer/breating exercises, distraction techniques and a whole host of other exercises.

And so, I often feel like other people should be able to do the same. But you know what? I'm not them. And so instead of judging them and giving them one more thing to feel crappy about, I am moved to empathy for these others whose suffering has obviously been greater than mine has.

Another example: I don't get how some people say they've "always had DP." In my experience DP gets into your head and infects all of your past memories and makes those filter through the present experience. I'm incredibly skeptical of the idea anyone has always had DP. But you know what? I share my theory and I let people be. Because I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE TO BE THEM.

Someone who has suffered from DP should be more attuned to the infinite, irreducible, uniqueness of every person. Not less as you seem to be.


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## californian (Jul 24, 2006)

daydreambeliever said:


> While this increases the quality of my life it does nothing to get rid of the constant dp I have had for over 30 years. Thank goodness I quit trying to cure myself and decided to try to enjoy the rest of my life. I think there is possibly 2 kinds of dpd, may be more. I too was misdiagnosed with bipolar disorder for the first 16 years. Even as a child my life had a dream like quality. I have been told I have suffered trauma but I don't remember any. I do feel terrible pain easily over sad situations. I think I am a HSP. Anyone else?


Yes, I am definitely a hyper-sensitive person given to deep sentimentality and sympathetic feeling. I think this plays a large role in my developing of DPD and is an underlying factory in my major multi-month DP episodes.


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## daydreambeliever (Jun 15, 2011)

californian said:


> Yes, I am definitely a hyper-sensitive person given to deep sentimentality and sympathetic feeling. I think this plays a large role in my developing of DPD and is an underlying factory in my major multi-month DP episodes.


I believe I was born this way. I have a daughter now 30 who turned me on to the book, "The Highly Sensitive Person". She diagnosed herself as being one a while back, and overcame a lot of difficulties because she figured out the stuff about over stimulation etc. I notice a tendency in my family toward dpd also. We are very imaginative, sensitive, thinkers, more than doers. HSPs are prone to disorders because of the ways of this high paced society. I think every parent and parent to be should read the book because they might be able to prevent disorders in a child who is highly sensitive if they recognize it early in their child. My daughter has a son now and is making sure he is doesn't get overstimulated and recognizes it when he does. He is the happiest little guy I have ever met! I'm a lucky grandma.


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## californian (Jul 24, 2006)

daydreambeliever said:


> I believe I was born this way. I have a daughter now 30 who turned me on to the book, "The Highly Sensitive Person". She diagnosed herself as being one a while back, and overcame a lot of difficulties because she figured out the stuff about over stimulation etc. I notice a tendency in my family toward dpd also. We are very imaginative, sensitive, thinkers, more than doers. HSPs are prone to disorders because of the ways of this high paced society. I think every parent and parent to be should read the book because they might be able to prevent disorders in a child who is highly sensitive if they recognize it early in their child. My daughter has a son now and is making sure he is doesn't get overstimulated and recognizes it when he does. He is the happiest little guy I have ever met! I'm a lucky grandma.


Thanks for the recommendation. I am definitely going to check it out as just the brief bit you wrote here seems to describe me perfectly as well as my five-year old. (My two-year old has a totally different personality.) I believe my uncle could also be described as an HSP and has probably unknowingly suffered DPD throughout his life.

I also think many of the great thinkers of world history fit into this category and it has to do with why so many of them were concerned with the problem of solipsism (skepticism of everything except one's own mind). Kierkegaard and Dostoevsky both describe DPD-like experiences and both apparently had Temporal Lobe Epilepsy which causes DP-type episodes. Nietzsche also probably had a slow-growing tumor that created these kinds of symptoms. The list could go on and on...and they all were "highly sensitive people."


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## Solveig (Jan 1, 2012)

Cheese said:


> I'm sorry. It had to be said. I am a new member here, and I have been doing extensive research on this monstrous illness DP/DR (which by the way I regard as one of the worst things ever, it beats depression and physical anxiety by a long run, at least those sufferers have a sense of reality.)
> 
> It is by far the hardest thing I have been dealing with. My memory is non existent, and my concentration is so bad, I used to be such a good reader but now it seems I can't even read paragraphs anymore.
> 
> ...


I just want to say that I completely agree with you on DP being the worst condition to be suffering from. It defies words and explanation as to how awful it is. I think it is the most perverted experience of life and could never have imagined it before actually being thrown into the depths of DP. I do believe that the brain can recover though. Anything is possible and the brain is highly plastic. As we get older it becomes less plastic, but the capability for healing is always there. You are only 18 so I think your chances are good. From my experience the most important thing is to start living a very healthy lifestyle and being diligent about good eating, a sleeping routine of at least 8 hours a night, exercise, and trying to get out of your mind as much as possible (which I know is impossible, but you can at least engage in activities that take you out of your psyche more than sitting on the computer and obsessing!). I've found craniosacral work to be helpful, along with massage and generally de-stressing my life as much as possible. I recently started Lamictal (lamotragine) which has also helped. When I say these things have helped me, believe me, I know that there is something that can be helpful to you because I am dealing with so much more than just DP/DR at this point. Every little tiny bit counts toward making it bearable. I've yet to be able to truly accept this condition, but I do believe that acceptance can make anything more bearable. It seems crazy to accept what is so unacceptable, but I think if one has the power over themselves to do so there is certainly liberation in acceptance.

I did want to comment on your desire to use iboga. I think you could potentially really mess things up in a major way by taking that route, particularly because your DP/DR is drug-induced (meaning it is physiological and not psychological in nature). I used iboga and ibogaine myself in November of 2011 and now, six months later, I am still struggling just to survive on a basic level...forget all that I once was in regards to a person, a personality, a human with hopes, desires, passion, depth, empathy, love, etc...I am a mere functioning robot scared shitless every single day about whether I will ever be remotely normal again. You think you are bad off now, believe me it can get way, WAY worse. I was where you are before ibogaine, and ibogaine severely damaged what was already a malfunctioning brain and psyche. There really are no words for what I am dealing with on a daily basis. I know iboga has helped some people and it may not be fair of me to steer people in the other direction, especially since there just may be salvation in iboga for the right person...but I feel morally like I need to convey what happened to me. The idea of one more person experiencing what I've gone through horrifies me and I think there are so many alternate routes to healing that pose far less risk than taking what is essentially nature's most powerful drug (as far as I'm concerned). I may become unpopular with iboga supporters for voicing what happened to me, but I think it's fair to have all sides represented and although my experience may be the exception it is no less real because of that. When I was researching iboga prior to deciding to use it I certainly would have wanted to read about the possible consequences.

I posted this in another thread and pasted it here so you can read more about my experience with iboga and ibogaine if you are interested.

"I want so much to support iboga use in helping with depersonalization because I know that it has helped some, but my own experience is testament that there is no perfect cure to anything. I used iboga and ibogaine in November, 2011. At the time I didn't know I was experiencing depersonalization/derealization. I thought I had a whopping anxiety disorder and was perhaps on the verge of psychotic depression. I'd never heard of DP before. Had I know more about what was happening to my brain I would have never used ibogaine, simply because ibogaine is an NMDA receptor antagonist - a dissociative - with similar properties in that respect as ketamine, PCP, DXM, and nitrous oxide. DP is thought to be a malfunction of the NMDA receptor and the last logical course of action would be to take a dissociative drug. I can't argue with the results of some DP sufferers who have used iboga and come out healed. I do wonder if those people were perhaps suffering from a more psychological type of DP - a kind of DP triggered by dissociation due to trauma or abuse. I really think a physiological DP could only be worsened by iboga, but that is based on my own horrific experience with the drug. If you are interested in reading my story, here's the link:

http://www.dpselfhel...ation-ibogaine/

I am still struggling each and every day with the damage ibogaine created. I was struggling before using ibogaine, no doubt, but ibogaine increased the symptoms of DP a thousand-fold and I believe it caused me brain damage while wreaking havoc with the rest of my body as well. I can't make heads or tails of my reaction as it is so paradoxical to everything I read about iboga, as well as the many people I spoke to in Mexico who had personally used it. I don't know why I had the reaction I did, but I feel like I need to put my experience out there. If I had read about even one negative reaction I wouldn't have risked it because I am a single parent of three small children. I thought I was safe. I never conceived of what ended up happening. I knew it could be hard on the heart, but had an EKG that showed normal heart function. Never in my wildest dreams did I think it could mess with my brain so severely.

I am working very hard to heal myself and am open to any form of healing that is safe. I know iboga works for many, but it certainly did not for me. I am sticking to the basics these days - pure diet, exercise, good sleep, lots of prayer, friendship, and loving family support.

I wish you all the best in your journey towards healing."


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## daydreambeliever (Jun 15, 2011)

Fearless said:


> Whatever guys I don't need to convince you. But I wish I was sooner had somebody who'd tell me that the cause of my suffering was my cowardice, and that I was fearing to be myself and express myself.


Very cool for you. I was told that a long time ago. I am not fearful to be me. In fact I am me all the way. Still as depersonalized as ever. But I am glad for you. And if it helps someone else that is really cool too. In my opinion the world is a better place anyway when we are all comfortable with being us even if we never know what that is. Cause I don't think I'll ever know. I can't claim a personality. But I know I don't practice faking it. It just happens to help me cope with society. I gotta quit kicking myself. I never know how I really feel or who I really am. So acting just comes natural. I do have values however, my health, the health of the planet, and life itself, period. That's all I know about me. It is hell to have my values. I've thought that perhaps this is the reason for my disorder but I don't know. I can't think that well. It's hard to change core values.


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## Jpa (Oct 10, 2012)

californian said:


> Please help me! I've had this for 4 months and I'm so confused because the detachment is all gone but I feel like I have no clue who I am. I felt more connected to my kids and husband while I was in the detachment out of body phase. As I came out of it I feel less connected. Do u feel this way? I just feel like I came out on the wrong side. Please help if u can. I would love to contact u to see how u manage to live like this and raise a family. Thx so much!
> 
> Dude, Sorry if you've seen my posts elsewhere and I don't want to sound like a broken record, but...
> 
> ...


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## livinginhell333 (Feb 19, 2005)

it's not permanent, it gets better, but you have to adjust to your sense of reality and the way you feel. It does suck that you may not feel like everyone else, and not here, but you are here, for some reason or purpose. The worst thing you can do is try to think your way out of it, because that will put you more steps back and make you're brain hurt.


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## peanut butter (Nov 9, 2012)

I think these chronic people who claim it to be forever lasting should be banned

for the benefit of the new people who most likely are one step forward to suicide after reading this bullshit.


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## DP boy (Mar 20, 2012)

this is a ridiculous thread how many times must it be said it is a fact that no one ever brings up the majority of dp suffers recover the offical prognosis says so ive seen hundreds of recovery stories on this website and imagine all those who dont use this website. the minority have dp decade plus i would say 1 to 2 percent out of 100. Im not trying to marginalize any of you your sufffering is horrible i strongly belive some have it this long beacuse of unresovled trauma and the brain learns this behavior ask yourself if you were recovered right now would you really be happy with your life would you really feel youve forfilled your purpose or have you just sat around for years not pursued your dreams and just done what you need to do to get by and live a normal live. I know some of you have some of you have but the majority i can bet havent.

you really think others out there are more alive then you you really think the majority of americans feel alive. No so many are dead spirtually and no they dont have dp by defintintion. What we have is a gift beacuse when you truly do feel alive and you will if you follow my adive when you truly have tht feeling you will truly love the life God has given you. Many of you are really wollowing in ur own pity and the chances are you just have it from anxiety. So many more people have recovered then not why cant you people accept that. there are no diffrent kinds of dp there are diffent kinds of anxiety and and depression and dp is a form of them. Ask yourself why are you on this earth and is it really to live your life obseesed with this paper tiger tht is dp i said fuck tht alone time ago i suggest you all do the same.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm recovered, after having it for 6 years. It's true, some people will have it for many many years. But DECIDE to get better, DECIDE to not to be a victim anymore and to just get on with life regardless of DP, anxiety or depression, then you will get better. And fast. Don't let this be a reality for you. Just like you would budget to avoid debt, face your fears to avoid doubt.

Anyone can recover. You just have to decide that you don't want to live any other way than the way you want.

This takes courage. But we can all be courageous.


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## DP boy (Mar 20, 2012)

To be honest i havent even fully taken my own advice yet but when i do i promise you i will be fully recovered i would say im about 60 percent right now but I and you all have the abillity to rip dp to shreads


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## DP boy (Mar 20, 2012)

visualize the recovery visualize tht moment and dont stop till it becomes a reality me im climeing to highest mountain near me and lettin out an epic scream


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## daydreambeliever (Jun 15, 2011)

Fearless said:


> wow this post is more than six months old. and I still agree.


Pretty big slap in the face. I've had a lot of people tell me I am very brave. I'll stick with that. Living with mental illness can be done if the cure doesn't happen for you. You aren't alone and probably are NOT a coward. By all means, keep trying to get better. And I really do wish you all the best.

I am finding this site to be a put down and not helpful for me. That's too bad cause I think dpd is a terrible cronic condition that is being downplayed to the public here, and could make it harder for people to get the help they really need.


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2013)

daydreambeliever said:


> I am finding this site to be a put down and not helpful for me. That's too bad cause I think dpd is a terrible cronic condition that is being downplayed to the public here, and could make it harder for people to get the help they really need.


Yeah, some people are a bit twat-ish, I don't blame you, but now I'm realising that on many other (friendlier) anxiety forums they know about DP, so I think I might eventually emigrate.  I've been here since March last year, and the downers come and go, but there's always one or a few at any one time. It doesn't really bother me, but seeing as there is the option of nicer forums to move over to, it would be silly not to! Meh, I might just give the forums and anything anxiety-related up at this rate because I'm pretty much "out the other side". 
So yeah, you're not alone with that opinion.


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## teddy1up (Dec 30, 2012)

faster u cure it the better. dude. people didnt have internet back then. or have knowledge of DP, this shit hit when internet started. TIP!!!!!!!


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## peanut butter (Nov 9, 2012)

whine about problems -> get comforting posts-> repeat until you die

Is this what you want DPselfhelp to be? Is this the help people need?

If you think this is somehow better than recovered people posting straight and honest posts, with actual evidence behind them, on how to recover, then I feel sorry for you and I'm not really surprised you got DP in the first place.


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2013)

Sorry fearless.. I forgot you lacked the humility to laugh at yourself. *facepalm*, I should have thought a little more and censored myself :O........ Or maybe not.

I'm just playing


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> However, when you do further research of people who have it, lots (and most) people I have found have had it for 5+ years with no avail 24/7. In other words, in my own research, it seems as though when this disorder is triggered, it is very likely that it is permanent.


I can categorically state that DP/DR remaining permanent is not common. I've been fully cured for over 2 decades (I was chronic) for the last decade I have worked with so many people suffering from DP/DR. The vast majority recover (in fact I do not know of anybody who has lived with DP/DR through to a death of old age***), although recovery times vary. I have found that there tends to be a relationship between how long someone has had DP/DR / how severe their DP/DR is and the length of time recovery takes.

In general I have found that those who have had DP/DR since childhood find recovery more difficult as well as those with co-existing conditions that are at the worst end of the scale. In general I have also found that those whose DP/DR was triggered by smoking weed, meditation, depression etc. also recover more quickly (in general).

The vast majority of people I have spoken to (and I have spoken to a lot over the last decade) had their DP/DR triggered by trying to escape reality in some way (whether they did this consciously or not):

Escaping reality due to trauma, depression, smoking weed, meditating (and many more), sometimes this escape from reality was totally unintentional - seizure, illness, pregnancy, taking medication prescribed from your doctor etc.

Sometimes DP/DR goes away of its own accord, but in the vast majority of cases I know of where people have recovered they have recovered by making a concious effort to focus on and reconnect to their physical and emotional selves as well as the physical world around them. In many cases this has been made easier by also actively dealing with any co-existing conditions such as anxiety and depression (to name just two).

You can recover, I and so many others can attest to this. The condition is horrendous but is not the hardest condition in the world to beat. Focusing on your condition and what caused it is never beneficial for recovery only focusing on recovery itself. I'm sorry but for most you have to work at this, it is highly unlikely you will just wake up one day feeling OK again.

Once people start focusing on recovery and living a lifestyle beneficial for recovery then recovery times are usually measured in months (not weeks, days or years ...although I have known all of these time-scales for recovery, months is the most common).

You can get there

JJ

****Although I have not personally heard of someone dying of old age still DP'd, I have read literature saying DP can be permanent for some, even this literature says this is rare, nor can I say how reliable this literature is.


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## peanut butter (Nov 9, 2012)

You always say that it must be focus on the recovery. Can you finally give some tl;dr on your theory of recovery or are you just trying to sell that book.


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> You always say that it must be focus on the recovery. Can you finally give some tl;dr on your theory of recovery or are you just trying to sell that book.


I never try and sell a book for 3 reasons

1) It is not-for-profit and makes a loss - do the math comes with a free email helpline (manned by 3 volunteers) and works out at £4.20 after PayPal.

2) Its bad manners on a forum; link is there for SEO purposes only

3) You can find most of what's in it by checking my posts for free

The full answer to the above question, is so long for a thread it is why I wrote the book (not even a book an e-publication less than 10K words)

The key to everything in it is also in one line in my post above, quoted below.



> Sometimes DP/DR goes away of its own accord, but in the vast majority of cases I know of where people have recovered they have recovered by making a concious effort to focus on and reconnect to their physical and emotional selves as well as the physical world around them. In many cases this has been made easier by also actively dealing with any co-existing conditions such as anxiety and depression (to name just two).


You can find most of the details here for free (check my posts), I also email/PM over 30 people a day not just on this forum....and I never try to sell them anything. We provide free guidance and advice....except for the e-publication and helpline, which unless we get some government funding makes a loss and will continue to make a bigger loss till we can't do it any more.

I also reply to specific advice (everybody is slightly different by PM)...ask me a specific question you will get a specific answer...and no I won't charge you or try to sell you anything. Just understand I can't spend six days typing a reply.

I wish you well with your recovery.

JJ


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## daydreambeliever (Jun 15, 2011)

Well since you have the answers I sincerely hope you stay recovered and don't end up struggling again, just to find that you were still speaking from your dream, and were never actually awake, and this next time you know what people like me are going through and talking about. Humility is not something I asked to learn but it came. Being on here and bragging that you feel better proves nothing. That's what I'm here to do. To try to help people feel better, not cure their dpd.

And don't anyone say this is a new dx because it has been documented for many years. The internet has nothing to do with it. Gave me a good laugh though! 

How do I speak when I am dreaming?


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## JackDanielß (Nov 28, 2012)

You can either believe that DP is something that you can overcome yourself or that it's biological and you'll suffer it until you die, living the only chance you have at this universe with sorrow.

Don't you find it more beautiful to believe that DP is something to overcome and something to become a stronger person after? It's also called growing up and becoming your true self.

Test which one works for you and read which ones have worked for people.


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> Don't you find it more beautiful to believe that DP is something to overcome and something to become a stronger person after? It's also called growing up and becoming your true self.
> 
> Test which one works for you and read which ones have worked for people.


The very first stage of my recovery was to accept that I had a mental condition, not some higher way of thinking etc.....thought processes that make you feel bad and less effective = mental condition/illness.

I also think having had suffered this has made me a stronger and more balanced person; but I sure as hell wouldn't want to go back there!


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## JackDanielß (Nov 28, 2012)

How old are you JJ70?


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

personal question lol Happy to respond; I was 43 last month


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## Mar1982 (Feb 14, 2013)

californian said:


> Dude, Sorry if you've seen my posts elsewhere and I don't want to sound like a broken record, but...
> 
> I'm not going to sell you some BS that it'll all for sure go away and you won't ever have to worry about it again.
> 
> ...


Hi Californian, I tried to send you a message but it wouldn't allow me to for some reason. I just wanted to say that I was very discouraged until I read your post. I've had DP since a panic attack in 2010 and though I've heard both that you can fully recover and that you have to learn to live with it. My GREATEST FEAR is that I will always have this, and that I won't be able to feel joy again or to do the things that I always wanted to do, but reading that, in spite of having it for all these years, you have lived a good life, I was inspired and wondered if you could give me some advice as to how to do this. I'd greatly appreciate any positive feedback! Thank you.


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## daydreambeliever (Jun 15, 2011)

Manageable and enjoyable, I like that. That'll do. I am coming out from yet another deep fog. I only recognize it when I am coming out of it. I don't stay out of it for long either. I grasp these moments. I see they are fleeting for me.

I do love life. It is amazing even with it's terrible pain.

I just now read the big post by jj. I've never encountered anyone like him in all my many years of in and out of institutions. Interesting. Sounds like a pro on the subject. 20 years recovery. Wow. Hum...


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## daydreambeliever (Jun 15, 2011)

noname said:


> OP is right, but you can't say ppl give false hope here, it's a long time now this forum have abandonned to rely the "hope", you can't dismiss that...
> You read what you want to read, but I can say to you than just compared to 5/6 years before (when my DP beginned), the forum was far more hopefull than now, trusting scam like linden method, trying to find tips for a hypothetical recovery, ect...
> 
> The forum now seem to be far more about alternating beetween "I can't take that anymore" threads and "How to live with chronic DP" than some years ago.
> ...


Yes. I relate. Totally.


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## peanut butter (Nov 9, 2012)

honestly though if you have had DP for many many years from a single joint/panicattack you are doing something wrong


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2013)

mmrrlla said:


> I think these chronic people who claim it to be forever lasting should be banned
> 
> for the benefit of the new people who most likely are one step forward to suicide after reading this bullshit.


Can't believe this thread is still going, however WT?

So, on ANY health site, or mental health site, those who are doing worse should be banned? Does that REALLY make any sense to you? You actually believe that? 38,000 Americans commit suicide each year. That is 38,000 too many -- but they have bipolar, schizophrenia, etc. Someone commits suicide for far more complex reasons -- and the rate of sucide is actually greater in countries where there is abject despair over their future -- which is living in utter poverty with no chance to escape. India has one of the highest suicide rates in I think in early adulthood, where even the educated can't find a job.

Also, if you were on a Multiple Sclerosis support site, or a Cancer support site, or a Parkinson's support site -- you would ban those who have fought tirelessly for years/even decades, and then ban them if they are dying? Oh good grief.

*FACEPALM* x 5,000


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## WithYourSigh (Nov 25, 2012)

Delicate said:


> I'm recovered, after having it for 6 years. It's true, some people will have it for many many years. But DECIDE to get better, DECIDE to not to be a victim anymore and to just get on with life regardless of DP, anxiety or depression, then you will get better. And fast. Don't let this be a reality for you. Just like you would budget to avoid debt, face your fears to avoid doubt.
> 
> Anyone can recover. You just have to decide that you don't want to live any other way than the way you want.
> 
> This takes courage. But we can all be courageous.


Dear god, why is this not working for me? It's been nine years for me, and I am trying to lead some kind of life, but if it weren't for antiepileptic drugs and all kinds of esoteric methods, I would still be as DP'd as I was years ago. This kind-hearted creature awaits me underneath it all.

Even the triggering event is still a mystery to me. Funny thing is, this existential hell was virtually triggered by a random, coincidental, unbelievable chain of events which I could easily prevent. If it weren't for a momentary lack of judgement, it is possible that I was never meant to be DP'd.


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## JackDanielß (Nov 28, 2012)

@maorseven

So what caused your DP?


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> disagree. Depersonalization disorder differs from person to person.


I have been recovered for over 20 years and have worked with too many others over the last decade to count; and this has been my experience.



> If we are being honest, half the people who spend such lengthy times with it are exactly like this; reading stories of those with it for years and becoming discouraged. The fascination with the disorder in itself is what feeds it.


I have been recovered for over 20 years and have worked with too many others over the last decade to count; and this has been my experience.



> Researching does nothing but allow the cycle to continue. There are cases of long term depersonalization, I myself having have it over the span of a decade with a couple 'breaks', but that does not set the bar for everyone. The simple truth is, depersonalization caused by mild trauma or a bad drug trip often resolves itself in time. That may require the use of therapy such as CBT and medication to help lessen it, but it very much just runs its course.


I have been recovered for over 20 years and have worked with too many other over the last decade to count; and this has been my experience...with one further note suffering for a decade although yes this is terrible for many is a very low percentage of cases.



> The simple truth is, depersonalization caused by mild trauma or a bad drug trip often resolves itself in time


Again in my experience this is true, but again in my experience those who actively work at at recovery are more likely to recover and recover more quickly.



> That may require the use of therapy such as CBT and medication to help lessen it, but it very much just runs its course.


In my experience these treatments have been helpful for many, more in an indirect way than in a direct way.



> Basing the guidelines for this condition off of anecdotal evidence is foolish.


Somebody please sticky this quote.....it would be so helpful.



> The truth: People with this disorder often recover in time, spanning from several months to several years.


In my experience, recovery is most commonly measured in months, particularly when people start working at it, but yes I have come across it in days, weeks and years.



> Just because you found 4 people who had it 20+ years does not make it a reality for everyone else! Some people die from the common cold too, that doesn't mean I write a last Will and Testament everytime I get the snuffles. Move on with your recovery and don't compare your situation to others. This is a journey we all do alone, even if we are surrounded by people.


Again if somebody could sticky this quote it would be so helpful.

As an end note, I agree that people at the worst end of the scale should be able to post on forums like this, this forum (I don't believe is intended to cure people), it is highly useful when you first have the condition to know that you are not alone and sometimes to vent. However at the end of the day focusing on DP/DR (which is what many do on here) is detrimental for recovery.

@Selig....EXCELLENT POST!!!


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## JackDanielß (Nov 28, 2012)

^Are you saying you shouldn't focus on dp as in symptoms or as in root causes?
I can't see how focusing on root causes would have any detrimental effect on recovery.


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> I can't see how focusing on root causes would have any detrimental effect on recovery.


Like most intelligent people you a doing what comes natural in this. Something goes wrong, find out what went wrong as this helps you to fix it.

With DP/DR this doesn't really help. 2 Examples:

Person 1 get DP/DR from smoking weed.

Person 2 gets DP/DR from an epileptic seizure.

Person one stops smoking weed as this was the trigger and spends their time researching and talking about why weed triggers DP/DR.....doing this does not make DP/DR go away. All it does is make him focus more on DP/DR...this is not good for recovery.

Person 2 gets treatment for their seizures and gets them under control....they still have DP/DR (managing the seizures may stop it happening again if they get better....but the fact remains they still have DP/DR. The same as person 1 they can research epilepsy and seizures all they like this will not cure their DP/DR....it will slow recovery because they are focusing on it.

In short, (in my experience only), the most successful way of recovering from DP/DR is to spend your time and efforts on recovery and not the cause. Focusing on the cause/trigger is generally a waste of time unless the trigger is still ongoing such as anxiety or depression (its easier to recover from DP/DR if you are not suffering from anxiety and depression)....even then don't focus on your anxieties etc....just focus on getting better.


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## JackDanielß (Nov 28, 2012)

Root *causes* not triggers.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2013)

> Person 2 gets treatment for their seizures and gets them under
> control....they still have DP/DR (managing the seizures may stop it
> happening again if they get better....but the fact remains they still
> have DP/DR. The same as person 1 they can research epilepsy and seizures
> ...


JJ, the above makes no sense.
Some individuals who have epilepsy and no other mental health disorder may experience DP/DR during the aura before a seizure. I have THREE friends with epilepsy and they don't know what the Hell I'm talking about when I describe DP/DR.

Others with epilepsy may experience chronic DP/DR, but it has nothing to do with their "focusing on it."

Individuals with severe head trauma (from an auto accident) can experience chronic DP/DR.

Individuals with a bran tumor can experience chronic DP/DR.

If you read Jill Bolte Taylor's "My Stroke of Insight" she describes DP/DR in PERFECT detail -- and it occured DURING her stroke. However it did not remain chronic. Also, speaking of research she is a neuroscientist and observed and recordered her recovery from a stroke and researches the brain as her CAREER.

There are MANY ways an individual can experience either transient, episodic, or chronic DP. But each outcome is different. You can't generalize to all people. Individuals who have bipolar can also have DP/DR for example, individuals with Borderline Personality ... the individual with bipolar can get treated for that primary disorder and DP might go away. The bipolar remains as something they must deal with life-long.

An individual with BPD may have success with therapy alone re: the BPD and accompanying DP (and cutting to "feel more real").

The fact that anticonvuslants can sometimes ELIMINATE DP/DR does not mean that those individuals have epilepsy.

The individuals I know personally (not from this board) who have chronic DP/DR or DP/DR that was effectively treated have OCD, anxiety (panic attacks) and anxiety/depression respectively. In those three cases, the DP/DR were episodic (often relating to panic and/or stress). Medictioon and therapy eliminated the DP/DR. It had nothing to do with their dwelling on it or not. All three have had to deal with OCD, anxiety and depression life-long, but they are all successful adults with families and high level jobs.

Every single case here is UNIQUE. There is no ONE way out. There are multiple cauess.

The experience is the same. Drug induced or not drug induced -- there is no clear data on that as there are more and more young people who have gotten DP/DR from rec drugs. Some from Rx drugs.

Outcome is very unpredictable. Severity, chronicity, support, early intervention, types of intervention, lifestyle ... all of these things make a difference.


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## JackDanielß (Nov 28, 2012)

That's funny, because trauma isn't the only root cause thing that can cause DP. Dysfunctional families, emotional abuse etc.

Mine was triggered by a panic attack and I can't remember any "trauma" in the sense people use the word because there was no single event. Now that I know what trauma means, I can surely say I did experience trauma in the past.

I also did have many problems in my childhood.

Good example is how most people are not aware about their thinking problems such as codependency, enmeshment, yet one can obviously see how they share the same traits here.

"Just a coincidence"


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> Some individuals who have epilepsy and no other mental health disorder may experience DP/DR during the aura before a seizure. I have THREE friends with epilepsy and they don't know what the Hell I'm talking about when I describe DP/DR.


Epilepsy does not cause DP/DR (maybe I did not explain myself correctly, this is hard in a post), people have triggered chronic DP/DR from seizure (from many I have spoken to and literature)....having a seizure also does not make you epileptic. It was just a random example chosen...many things trigger DP/DR. DP/DR is not just a temporary state of aura (although for many it is) for those who have had DP/Dr triggered by seizure.



> Others with epilepsy may experience chronic DP/DR, but it has nothing to do with their "focusing on it."
> 
> Individuals with severe head trauma (from an auto accident) can experience chronic DP/DR.
> 
> Individuals with a bran tumor can experience chronic DP/DR.


This is so true, I have posted about this many times. I used weed and epilepsy at random in this thread just as an example. What caused it I have said many times is totally in agreement with you. It was not caused by focusing on it; but focusing on the condition does not help. With both the cases you have highlighted...DP/Dr recovery is not helped by focusing on DP/DR.....it is only helped by focusing on recovery.



> If you read Jill Bolte Taylor's "My Stroke of Insight" she describes DP/DR in PERFECT detail -- and it occured DURING her stroke. However it did not remain chronic. Also, speaking of research she is a neuroscientist and observed and recordered her recovery from a stroke and researches the brain as her CAREER


I can not disagree with this, I have posted many times on DP/DR recovery, and like you have experienced chronic DP/DR myself and have spoken with a huge amount of others. This post was just an add on to my others (it is almost impossible to cover here right now), DP/DPD the many triggers etc. You are very well educated and you know your quote above does not cover this in detail no more than my answer.



> There are MANY ways an individual can experience either transient, episodic, or chronic DP. But each outcome is different. You can't generalize to all people. Individuals who have bipolar can also have DP/DR for example, individuals with Borderline Personality ... the individual with bipolar can get treated for that primary disorder and DP might go away. The bipolar remains as something they must deal with life-long.


i have discussed this before and am happy to discuss in another thread, you are challenging a huge answer. However in general focusing on the cause on DP/DR does not help (as I said about anxiety and depression - co-existing conditions need to be dealt with, the same applies to the above) ....again you are educated and well researched, you know I can not answer fully in this post.......but food for thought.....I don't believe any medical practitioner would ask anyone who was Bi-polar (lot of experience with people with this one), borderline personality or a brain tumour to focus on their condition.....they would ask them to focus on recovery.



> An individual with BPD may have success with therapy alone re: the BPD and accompanying DP (and cutting to "feel more real").


Therapy has a low success rate with DP/DR whether accompanied by bi-polar or not.



> The fact that anticonvuslants can sometimes ELIMINATE DP/DR does not mean that those individuals have epilepsy.


In my experience this is 100% true, epilepsy was used only as an example.



> The individuals I know personally (not from this board) who have chronic DP/DR or DP/DR that was effectively treated have OCD, anxiety (panic attacks) and anxiety/depression respectively. In those three cases, the DP/DR were episodic (often relating to panic and/or stress). Medictioon and therapy eliminated the DP/DR. It had nothing to do with their dwelling on it or not. All three have had to deal with OCD, anxiety and depression life-long, but they are all successful adults with families and high level jobs.


I have a lot of experience with this. The above is not true for everyone. I must also add that in general; medication and (modern) therapy would not have had these people you know focusing on their DP/DR but on recovery.



> Every single case here is UNIQUE. There is no ONE way out. There are multiple cauess.
> 
> The experience is the same. Drug induced or not drug induced -- there is no clear data on that as there are more and more young people who have gotten DP/DR from rec drugs. Some from Rx drugs.


In my experience this is true however their is a very common way out that is related to all cases...the largest difference being the wide range of co-existing conditions.



> Outcome is very unpredictable. Severity, chronicity, support, early intervention, types of intervention, lifestyle ... all of these things make a difference.


I have spoken about this too many times too count. Although there is a general predictability on recovery times which is related to the severity of the condition, how long an individual has had the condition and the degree of co-existing conditions.

Sorry dreamer, you threw so much out there in that last post it is almost impossible for me to answer fully in this post. Please challenge again, i would love to answer in more detail (this is hard in a thread or a post).

JJ


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2013)

Selig said:


> Focusing on root causes for people who triggered DP by drug use or a panic attack is fairly pointless in my opinion. There isn't anything lying dormant to address usually. In cases of trauma, I would say therapy on those specific events probably would be beneficial.


Totally agree, in my case. I am pretty sure stress related to my childhood and my relationship caused my DP, but I recovered without spending any special time focusing on the causes.


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

> Totally agree, in my case. I am pretty sure stress related to my childhood and my relationship caused my DP, but I recovered without spending any special time focusing on the causes.


Totally agree., this OP is starting to reach some common sense, maybe time to switch to a different thread?? @ Dreamer would you like to start a sensible debate? As you know the opinions of those with this condition and how to communicate with them effectively, - varies enormously, I'm happy to engage in an academic/intelligent debate...not about winning but about helping???

Most psychological therapy has moved away fromm concentrating on past issues to current issues (what you can change now)...both (in general) have a pretty poor rate of dealing with DP/DR recovery, although (in my experience..note: myself and a few hundred people not a few thousand), modern psychological therapy has had a fairly positive effect on helping people to do the things they need to do to recover from DP/DR , rather than directly curing DP/DR.

JJ


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## daydreambeliever (Jun 15, 2011)

I relate to what you all are saying so it still doesn't answer my life long question as to why I still have it after years of denial?? Also some of my young relatives were more or less showing symptoms at like age 3. Just out there you know? And started suffering from it as teens, carried it into adulthood where we fail miserably at jobs, school, etc., way before we ever focused on it. To have a dx helps me a great deal to forgive myself for being a complete and utter failure, and space cadet. Once again, I think there is a big difference between a person who actually has this and another who deals with it at some point in life.

Look around you. If you see a youngster who can't get it together, who does not have ADHD, who seems intelligent but lost somewhere, they are on their way. It's not exactly trauma related unless you want to call this callousness we adopted toward our relationship with life, traumatic, which I think it may be. We are very sensitive smart people in my family. May be young intervention is where it's at. But it seems like downplaying it as a condition that simply goes away if a person gives it time, that is not going to happen.

I am very lucky I became a parent at a young age because I would be a suicide statistic and it would have been attributed to a wrong bipolar dx and my use of drugs. I have been stuck in a dream world since I was a little girl. I know. I remember. Didn't know then however. It has been real hard to come on here for support and be told that I am in denial and clinging to illness. This is simply untrue and thank goodness I have a therapist who has known me for a long time. If there is hope for people like what runs in my family, it is the admission that we are worthwhile people, who have great obstacles to overcome to survive in this society the way it is.

I have to remain anonymous but I can tell you that watching these young people, just like I was, have to settle for jobs as lame as pizza delivery cause they can't apply themselves even though they are smart, and relationships, we won't even go there. I don't want to watch them kill themselves. It is a fear. Sure I'll just keep telling them to keep trying. They don't want to hear they are damaged, just like I did not. Not yet. My fingers are crossed for them. I wish I had better news to give them. They're doing right now what you suggest, concentrating on trying to live life without even knowing the phrase 'depersonalization disorder'. Results are in folks, they are now reaching the age of 30. It's a crying shame. Life thus far has taken a huge toll on their self esteem.

There is even a look these people have. I recognize it. Eccentric, tall, very skinny, slouching, and obviously very anxious. That's my 2 cents. We are still in the discovery stage of knowing about this condition.


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## daydreambeliever (Jun 15, 2011)

Gawd. I read my posts and they sound so out there. Do they to you too? LOL Jeeze!

At any rate it is good to know of a place I can tell them about if and when they give up trying to make it on their own. So I thank you for the optimism. My hope is of course that they will just magically be okay. It could happen. But I also fear watching them settle for the lesser life (the case thus far). This shit pisses me off. We're cool people damn it!


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2013)

JJ,
I do appreciate your thoughtful and detailed reply.
Just wanted to clarify:

I said:



> An individual with BPD may have success with therapy alone re: the BPD and accompanying DP (and cutting to "feel more real").


You said



> Therapy has a low success rate with DP/DR whether accompanied by bi-polar or not.


BPD is Borderline Personality Disorder, *very different from bipolar.* Borderline Personality Disorder is usually approached with Dialectical Behavior Therapy (used since the 1990s/developed by Marsha Linehan, U. of Washington). Borderline patients who have DP/DR and cutting DO tend to respond to therapy, though some also go on medication, but therapy CAN be effective in those with borderline.

Also, as I have mentioned with a friend/example:

1. As a young man he had severe panic attacks and depression. During the panic attacks he exerienced DP/DR that would fade slowly after the panic did (he took himself to the ER sometimes, or his wife did!). Treatment of his depression with medication both alleviated the DP and panic attacks. He is now a 50 year old University professor, husband, father of a number of kids, very succesful and happy. He still gets bouts of depresion.

2. Another friend has OCD. Intrusive, blasphemous thoughts that used to make her pray 100s of times a day to alleviate her anxiety. Also, under stress and panic she would have episodes of DP/DR. With medication she is STILL on (an SSRI), and therapy, the OCD is unders control ... though when she has gone off the SSRI for her pregnancies the OCD comes back with a vengeance. When the OCD was under control (and it is NOT cured) the panic, DP/DR faded away.

She is 54 a monther, a former assistant director on films, wife, on the PTA, etc.

Neither individual has DP/DR any more. Often if it IS secondary, and properly treating the PRIMARY disorder, the DP/DR can cease. Neither individul is concerend about getting DP/DR again. The proessor was stunned that mine is chronic and said he would not be able to work or live if it had remained chronic. And this guy is a healthy functioning man.

-------------------

I do find it intresting here on the board, especially looking at the subject iine -- a good many say the Board gives them "false hope" while others say stories of chronic DP/DR should not be discussed. OMG. LOL.

JJ, I do appreciate you are sharing a success story. But it cannot apply to everyone. I have seen it doesn't. No one story of ANY illness is the same. DIagnosis, misdiagnosis, outcome, severity, etc. I have one friend who was diagnosed with skin cancer in her 20s. She was told not to have a child for 5 years as it could cause the cancer to return. Also in her late 40s, she had several children, and has never had any cancer recurr.

Anothr friend, a guy my age, was just diagnosed with skin cancer. It sounds as if it wasn't caught early enough. The statistics for him are not good. He may beat them, he may not, but it will not be his fault. There is no way he wants to die and leave behind his wife, 2 kids (in college).

Each case is different.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2013)

*disorder /dis·or·der/ (dis-or´der) a derangement or abnormality of function; a morbid physical or mental state.*

(examples in medicine)

*lymphoproliferative disorders* a group of malignant neoplasms arising from cells related to the common multipotential lymphoreticular cell, including lymphocytic, histiocytic, and monocytic leukemias, multiple myeloma, plasmacytoma, and Hodgkin's disease.

*sleep disorders * chronic disorders involving sleep, either primary (dyssomnias, parasomnias) or secondary to factors including a general medical condition, mental disorder, or substance use.

synonymous (minor variations) disease, syndrome, etc.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2013)

Brief history of DP:

*Henri Frédéric Amiel (27 September 1821 - 11 May 1881)* was a Swiss philosopher, poet and critic.
*Journal Intime* written before his death describes life long "feelings of detachment" which HE HIMSELF, knowing nothing about what was wrong with him -- Depersonalization from his self.

(I got just this book for free on Kindle -- it was far too expensive as a hardcover)

*The Journal Intime. The July 8, 1880 entry reads:*

"I find myself regarding existence as though from beyond the tomb, from another world; all is strange to me; I am, as it were, outside my own body and individuality; I am depersonalized, detached, cut adrift. Is this madness?"[55]

*At that time in the late 1800s there was no word for this feeling. A layperson described it. It was later used in a clinical article.*

*First medical publication:*

*"Depersonalization was first used as a clinical term by Ludovic Dugas in 1898 *to refer to "a state in which there is the feeling or sensation that thoughts and acts elude the self and become strange; there is an alienation of personality - in other words a depersonalization". This description refers to personalization as a psychical synthesis of attribution of states to the self.[56]"

His article was entiled *"Un cas de depersonalization"* He used the word that Amiel used in his Journal. Dugas did not coin the term.

At the time, Dugas had been studying -- defa-vu, jamais vu, and other "Perceptual Distortions."


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## peachy (Feb 9, 2008)

I haven't the time to read all the posts on this page. I just checked out the first post. But here's my take on it. I've had depersonalization disorder my whole life but recently I've been doing a lot better. Not perfectly of course. I still have much to work out. But it's better. In my opinion, at least for me, depersonalization disorder is like any addiction. It's something you have for life once you have it. It'll be there to get you down when you have a weak or vulnerable moment whether that be from lack of sleep, breaking up with a significant other, meditation, etc. It might be from positive or negative events that cause it to reemerge. But I have to say I feel a lot better and feel like it is somehow being managed. I don't believe in a magic "cure" for depersonalization. Maybe some people have been cured of it for life but this is my take on it, from someone that has dealt with it their whole life. I guess you just have to look at it as a weakness to keep in check. Like an addiction. But the more time you are able to keep it in check, the easier it can get and pretty soon you don't even really realize you are keeping it in check. Its not some perfect solution for you but that's what I've got.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2013)

Susto said:


> you people are just reducionist materialism.. in other words, boring


Susto, I know you and I disagree about all of this, but I have met Peachy in person. She is strong, she will soon graduate from university, she has not stopped living for a moment because of her DP. She has a loving family who is very supportive of her. Most important -- she knows herself. As far as I'm concerned she is one of the brightest, sweetest young people I know. And I don't need to defend her. She doesn't need that. She will have a rich, full life. If you met her in person you wouldn't say what you just said here. You don't even know her, and you judge her.

Sad.

And off I go to my support meeting! I seek out as many tools to help myself as possible. And posting facts ... well, you'd have to go to the source to debate those. Dr. Sierra, Martin Teicher, Oliver Sacks, V.S. Ramachandran, and poor Henri Amiel ... who is unfortuantely long deceased. But HIS legacy lives on.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2013)

Susto said:


> this wasn't much a criticism as it was a venting of my frustration to see others who are in the same place as I am, and a acknowledgment that I might be doomed to the same hellish destiny as they have been. Still, if it is just a excuse to fool myself, or an astute intuitive insight, I feel like their failure is due to their limiting beliefs of a materialistic universe imposed by western society, which results in a lack of will to find transformation in the realms of the "unknown", the unconcious mind, the spiritual universe


Well, I hate to differ, but your comment did sound rude.

Peachy is very young. I'd gather she is only a few years older than you are. Who knows what her future will bring? I believe she is a person capable of doing many good things, and enjoying herself in spite of her own issues.

And this concept of a "materialistic universe" -- well, many choose not to have any part of it. A good number of my friends live "off the grid." My brother in law has never had a 9-5 job, is an artist ... late 60s. But he has his own issues. I have friends who have owned a Christmas Tree farm in the middle of nowhere. They live a VERY simple life. And yet they have difficulties to overcome.

People in non-Western countries have good lives and horrific lives. I can't think of anywhere in this world where there isn't suffering. And that is a Buddhist awareness. Life is suffering, but we make the best of it. The smallest accomplishment is important. Being at peace with one's self is an accomplishment in the face of all the challenges we are given. As I said, if you are spiritual, go back to the Bible and read "The Book of Job" -- a many who had every problem on Earth. Who questioned why God was testing him so.

I've said this before. You shouldn't compare your experience to mine or anyone else's. Each of us is infinitely unique. Every human on this Earth pursues their spiritual side in a different way as well.

Wow, I forgot to log ago several hours ago! LOL.


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## DP boy (Mar 20, 2012)

susto how long u had it


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2013)

Susto said:


> I apologize for saying "hellish", it sounded really negative.. also for blaming people, everyone at it's own walk...  I don't know dreamer, I just fear living like this for the rest of my life  Although, every experience teach us something, so I might as well get something valuable out of it, idk... idk, I just hate materialism, it is so depressing


I think acceptance of the world, yourself, the people in it is a very spiritual thing to do, and a great spiritual accomplishment. This includes those who are materialistic in what they get enjoyment out of - to break down those divides and see them for the beautiful beings they are could mean you could eventually like them. I don't think there is anything wrong about them, although I too once desired a much more simple life, living in the wilderness off berries and fish and kills. To be honest, it wasn't nice, growing increasingly bitter about society. It didn't feel good. if anything i just wanted to be able to understand society, not isolate myself because I hated it. Break down all those stereotypes and we are all just simple humans, using the resources we have to get by. We are not seperate, the separateness is an illusion. We are one of the same thing. And every human and animal deserves appreciation for who they are, and any differences they have. As long as they are not making the world a worse-off place of course.

That's just my hippy view of things


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2013)

Delicate said:


> I think acceptance of the world, yourself, the people in it is a very spiritual thing to do, and a great spiritual accomplishment. This includes those who are materialistic in what they get enjoyment out of - to break down those divides and see them for the beautiful beings they are could mean you could eventually like them. I don't think there is anything wrong about them, although I too once desired a much more simple life, living in the wilderness off berries and fish and kills. To be honest, it wasn't nice, growing increasingly bitter about society. It didn't feel good. if anything i just wanted to be able to understand society, not isolate myself because I hated it. Break down all those stereotypes and we are all just simple humans, using the resources we have to get by. We are not seperate, the separateness is an illusion. We are one of the same thing. And every human and animal deserves appreciation for who they are, and any differences they have. As long as they are not making the world a worse-off place of course.
> 
> That's just my hippy view of things


Delicate, I like your "hippie view" LOL. Some would say this is "radical acceptance." As many here have said -- and this is Buddhist Mindfulness -- is we must try to see things in "grey"/"the middle" not "black and white" -- that is I used to place peole on pedestals and feel like a failure, and see only the worst outcome. It has taken years, but I am conquering that.
Acceptance of self, and this crazy world ... yes, this is certainly a key to calming anxiety, and I would say to controling the DP. My DP/DR are improved. 
Bottom line, you try to seek the goodness in the world, and give others the benefit of the doubt. And an old cliche is giving to others -- that takes you "out of focusing inward."
I am NOT saying this is easy. It's not.
And also, compassion -- this is the root of a spiritual path -- that is part of the picture. Compassion for self and for others.
I think I was clearly born at the wrong time. I would have made an awesome hippie. I'm a tad too young, lol.

Ah, and "a simple life" -- it's not really possible. It wasn't in the past. If we aren't chasing the mighty dollar, we would be chasing food and being chased by lions, or fighting for territory, etc. There is no utopia. We can strive for peace withougt beating up on others.


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## daydreambeliever (Jun 15, 2011)

Delicate said:


> I think acceptance of the world, yourself, the people in it is a very spiritual thing to do, and a great spiritual accomplishment. This includes those who are materialistic in what they get enjoyment out of - to break down those divides and see them for the beautiful beings they are could mean you could eventually like them. I don't think there is anything wrong about them, although I too once desired a much more simple life, living in the wilderness off berries and fish and kills. To be honest, it wasn't nice, growing increasingly bitter about society. It didn't feel good. if anything i just wanted to be able to understand society, not isolate myself because I hated it. Break down all those stereotypes and we are all just simple humans, using the resources we have to get by. We are not seperate, the separateness is an illusion. We are one of the same thing. And every human and animal deserves appreciation for who they are, and any differences they have. As long as they are not making the world a worse-off place of course.
> 
> That's just my hippy view of things


My problem has been that humans ARE making the world a worse off place, and we don't seem to mind. I find I want no part of it but am caught in the trap laid for me before I was born. There's no one to blame. No one to kill. I live in a cabin in the woods right now. I want to watch nature but what I am seeing is nature coping with human intrusion everywhere, with little thought from us about our effect, noise, light, taking food, habitat, on and on. We are so devastating to the calm natural world. No wonder people have anxiety issues. And the knowledge that we are creating nuclear waste and considering nuclear war! Wow. What a fucking rip off for people who just ever wanted a simple life and death. I am here to experience being alive. Fuck society and human made spirituality that makes it okay for us to ignore what a mess we've made of a paradise. The chickadees are having more fun every day than I am, and they deserve their forest to thrive! Acceptance makes us feel better but it is no fucking cure.

Please don't take this personal. Forgive me I am angry too. Dp all my life. It was easier somewhat when I was younger and my body less tired. My mind less tired too. Sometimes I just feel intense pain these daze, a loss I cannot contain. But alas I got what I wanted out of life after all and I can only hope that for you too.


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

daydreambeliever said:


> My problem has been that humans ARE making the world a worse off place, and we don't seem to mind. I find I want no part of it but am caught in the trap laid for me before I was born. There's no one to blame. No one to kill. I live in a cabin in the woods right now. I want to watch nature but what I am seeing is nature coping with human intrusion everywhere, with little thought from us about our effect, noise, light, taking food, habitat, on and on. We are so devastating to the calm natural world. No wonder people have anxiety issues. And the knowledge that we are creating nuclear waste and considering nuclear war! Wow. What a fucking rip off for people who just ever wanted a simple life and death. I am here to experience being alive. Fuck society and human made spirituality that makes it okay for us to ignore what a mess we've made of a paradise. The chickadees are having more fun every day than I am, and they deserve their forest to thrive! Acceptance makes us feel better but it is no fucking cure.
> 
> Please don't take this personal. Forgive me I am angry too. Dp all my life. It was easier somewhat when I was younger and my body less tired. My mind less tired too. Sometimes I just feel intense pain these daze, a loss I cannot contain. But alas I got what I wanted out of life after all and I can only hope that for you too.


Humanity is a cancer that needs to be wiped off the face of the planet in order for the natural world to survive.

We are a hideous species that seeks self-satisfaction above all and serve absolutely no purpose in being alive.

You only have to look at the way we treat animals and the way the media feeds us inane shit that counts as news.

We are horrendous, and we most of us don't seem to give a fuck that we are this way... they just accept it and carry on with a total lack of self-awareness.

Eventually, all animal species that can't be USED by us for our own satisfaction will be extinct. Why? Because most people just don't give a fuck. They are too wrapped up in what the daily mail says, or what glamour magazines say, or what other people think of them.

Humanitarian causes are only useful to a certain extent, sure, we are saving human lives, but the human population as already grown far too rapidly. If anything we are the ones that need to be culled. We kill 10 billion animals a year to feed us. How disgusting is that? How can we even live with ourselves knowing that is happening?

We are all slaves. We walk around with a lot of puffed up self-importance, but don't realize that outside our own ego's, billions of others think they are as important as we do. Such is the human condition.. fucked up from birth.

The worst kind of people are those like Geldof and Bono and Angelina Jolie. Their ego's grow to massive levels because they believe they are doing 'right'. We all praise them for it, but really, who are we kidding? Humanity needs to be stopped, because we are an evil species. Doing good is almost pointless because the only things you can do is to try and rectify the mistakes that our ancestors made. But it's too late.


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## JJ70 (Nov 1, 2010)

I've had chronic DP/DR and worked and talked with too many others to count, a general common factor amongst people with DP/DR is that in general they are pretty selfless people....selfless as in the opposite to selfish. Its often good to learn to put yourself first while trying to recover, humans have a range of emotions both positive and negative ones, but getting in touch with and focusing on all of your emotions is incredibly useful for recovery.

I wouldn't even feel bad about working towards having a big ego...often viewed as a negative characteristic. Most with DP/DR have very little if any ego at all, working towards being egotistical can help as you are unlikely to get there. Even if in the unlikely event you do, you can always work at becoming a nicer person after you are better.

I understand the above will not be popular with many, but it is a general truth.

JJ


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## Wallace (Jun 15, 2013)

I don't think there is anything worse than false hope, especially when you experience it over and over and over again. I have had DP for over 35 years. I have had it everyday, every hour, every minute and I think there is most definitely a physical aspect to this that won't be solved by expressing anger or being brave or relaxing or relaxing... I've have tried all these things and it never worked.

HOWEVER, I CAN'T SPEAK FOR ALL DP SUFFERERS, AND NEITHER CAN ANYONE ELSE ON THIS SITE. I can also tell from this site, that there are degrees of DP. Some people might get better. I'm pretty sure mine is permanent.

Personally, I think mine is a lot like post traumatic stress disorder. I know that a bad environment as a child got me here.

I'm really disappointed in the medical community. With all their technology, they can't find anything and It's almost like they haven't tried very hard.


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## miabella (Jun 19, 2013)

Have any of you that have had it for years looked into any nutritional type stuff? there are a lot of nutritional/health problems out there than can cause DP/DR. Maybe the reason all the mental work isn't working is because it's something that needs to be done with your bodies?

I mean -- I don't want to put any false hope in here, but I recovered and lived a very normal, very enjoyable life... the only reason I'm back here is because I let my stress get to me. but I'd still say, this time around, its not 24/7 severe. There are times where I really can get it out of my head.

So yes - it's temporary. Honestly, there is no way it's not. Your brain isn't 'altered' in any way, unless by a temporary chemical imbalance....which is fixable, your THOUGHT PROCESS is what's altered. And the reason there are differences in recovery times is because there are differences in thought patterns among us.

I really feel for you guys who have had this forever.... but I also really feel that you should look more into it on a nutritional side... not so much a mental health side. For example, cutting out caffeine, refined sugar, and the bad habit of skipping meals too much REALLY affects my DP/DR. If I do it all right, it's hardly noticeable.


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## Someoneone (Jun 12, 2013)

I know how desperate and hopeless some of you may feel, but trust me this is not a hoax, this is not a lie, it is true when many of us say that DP/DR is 100% curable. I used to think like you did and failed many times.

Here I explained some common mistakes that people who are trying to overcome DP/DR constantly make - http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/41561-top-8-mistakes-dpdrers-make/

Hopefully it will help you! Everything is going to be ok trust me.


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## leminaseri (Jul 1, 2020)

peanut butter said:


> I think these chronic people who claim it to be forever lasting should be banned
> 
> for the benefit of the new people who most likely are one step forward to suicide after reading this bullshit.


the best post on this forum ever


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