# Divine Drama of life?? Or a load of NEW AGE nonsense?



## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

I'm genuinely open to ideas on this...what do peoples think about this on Carl Jung?

In his memoir, Memories, Dreams, Reflections, Jung wrote that meaning comes ?when people feel they are living the symbolic life, that they are actors in the divine drama. That gives the only meaning to human life; everything else is banal and you can dismiss it. A career, producing of children, are all maya (illusion) compared to that one thing, that your life is meaningful.?


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

I feel a bit sorry for Jung's children reading that, and seeing as hardly anybody in the world lives the "symbolic life" I think it is a bit depressing to think that they live completely meaningless lives, but I do have an understanding of what he means because it is clear that most careers are just a means to an end and it does nobody any favours to live their lives for their partners or their children, but then again perhaps the "divine drama" is just idealist imagination on his part, and he seems to be suggesting that a belief in divine power or god is crucial for meaning which I dont agree with as I think you can get spirituality without god.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

I don't know if he means that those things are meaningless in themselves, just that people think those are the reasons for life, like the end in itself rather than the means to an end. Its the same with money - people tend to think of it as an ends in itself rather than a means to an end. The general pattern expected of a Westerner is to go to school, perhaps university, get a job, find a significant other, get married, buy a house, have kids, retire, die. People assume that's the purpose of life and so do those things because they are "supposed" to.

You can still do all those things and have a meaningful life, its just you do them for a reason other than "because you are supposed to". For example you could get a boring job you hate because you are supposed to earn money to support a family and buy a house. Or you could find a job you like in which you earn less but gives meaning to your life, then find the time to have meaningful relationships, perhaps reproduce and provide the means for your children to have meaningful lives as well.

I kind of like the more tribal idea of having children as well. Where the community is very close and all the adults share responsibility for the children between them. In that case they become "Our children" instead of "My children" and get overall more love and support as well as being involved in a close knit community. We are far removed from that idea at the moment though.


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## Thomas Rymer (Jan 4, 2008)

In my experience there are two things that help one solve a problem, one is to ask the right questions, the other is context. The latter is a big problem in this case, since without something to put Jung's remark into context we can attribute whatever meaning we want to it. Allow me to provide some then



Carl Jung said:


> Now we have no symbolic life, and we are all badly in need of the symbolic life. Only the symbolic life can express the need of the soul ... And because people have no such thing, they can never step out of this mill -- this awful, grinding, banal life in which they are 'nothing but' ...
> Everything is banal, everything is 'nothing but'; and that is the reason why people are neurotic. They are simply sick of the whole thing, sick of that banal life, and therefore they want sensation. They even want a war; they all want a war. They are all glad when there is a war; they say, 'Thank heaven, now something is going to happen -- something bigger than ourselves!' ...
> Life is too rational, there is no symbolic existence in which I am something else, in which I am fulfilling my role as one of the actors in the divine drama of life ... Then life makes sense, and makes sense in all continuity, and for the whole of humanity. That gives peace, when people feel they are living the symbolic life, that they are actors in a divine drama. That gives the only meaning to human life; everything else is banal and you can dismiss it. A career, producing children, all are maya compared to that one thing, that your life is meaningful.


Now, if I were to speculate, based on this little bit of information I would conclude that Jung's remark, was one born out of frustration, and perhaps a bit of despair. For having seen a part of the bigger picture, and compared it to modern life with all its faults he wanted something better (although if it was for his fellow man or for himself I do not know without more context). Also remember that he did not seem to achieve the "symbolic life" either.

In any case I have my own life to lead.

So I bid you all,

Adieu


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Good points Thomas Rymer. I think you can see pessimism and despair at times in the views of nearly all of the classical psychologists because the majority of them lived through the war years so their view of humanity was most probably affected by the brutality of those years and to be fair I think it would have been pretty hard not to take a dim view of "normal" human life if you lived during those times seeing as the whole world seemed intent on destroying itself.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

The use of the word "symbolic" doesn't strike my heart as "real". Existential is the only word that can summarise what I feel he may be refering to. ...I also don't see drama as divine. I see normality as mental fabrications, people have needs to hold onto drama, in case they fall into the abyss of existential wonderment. But maybe the "symbolic life" catches you when you fall.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Pablo said:


> Good points Thomas Rymer. I think you can see pessimism and despair at times in the views of nearly all of the classical psychologists because the majority of them lived through the war years so their view of humanity was most probably affected by the brutality of those years and to be fair I think it would have been pretty hard not to take a dim view of "normal" human life if you lived during those times seeing as the whole world seemed intent on destroying itself.


No different to current day. Only the scale has changed - wars are started and finished within days, weeks or months rather than decades, though conflicts carry on over the years e.g. Iraq.



Rozanne said:


> The use of the word "symbolic" doesn't strike my heart as "real". Existential is the only word that can summarise what I feel he may be refering to. ...I also don't see drama as divine. I see normality as mental fabrications, people have needs to hold onto drama, in case they fall into the abyss of existential wonderment. But maybe the "symbolic life" catches you when you fall.


What is life and reality if not a series of metaphors and symbols?


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

sorry to be a bore...

http://www.ahalmaas.com/Glossary/e/existence.htm


> Existence
> We see that the nature of the absolute is really the absence of being, the annihilation of presence. This discovery is actually not surprising, for all presence is nothing but the being of the manifest world. Presence emerges as the flow of the logos, as the outflow of being, whose field is patterned by the forms of the universe. And since being is conscious presence that emerges from the absolute, the absolute must be prior to being and its contrasting background. Being, in other words emerges out of nonbeing. The source is a mysterious nonbeing, a nonbeing that is not simply an ordinary nothing, but a metaphysical nonbeing that holds the potential of all possibilities of existence and experience. It is a breathtaking truth: the source and ultimate nature of all existence is nonexistence. Being, with all of its richness and variety, is born out of nonbeing. We begin here to understand the mysteries of Reality; we see that it does not correspond with the apparently obvious, normal perception of things. We begin to appreciate the stupendous mystery that is Reality, and the subtlety of truth, which can quicken the passionate love of the heart to inquire into the mysteries of Being. (Inner Journey Home, pg 384)


I just see the drama as the lowest part of it.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2008)

End of the day..........WHO GIVES A SHIT!!

Let it the fuk go and move on with life instead of continually breaking it down.

LIVE IT!!


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Either you believe enlightenment exists or you don't. I believe in it because consciousness changes with situations, people, things etc - what's behind all that? For me its more important to reconnect with myself than it is to acheive something in the world at large as in a state of alienation I cannot enjoy it.


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2008)

Do I believe it, I don't know..........I guess I do believe in enlightenment.
What I don't agree with is continually breaking it down.
You either believe that the sun will rise everyday or you don't, if you do you should just enjoy it, not continually ask questions like, shit.....what if it doesn't rise, what if it blows up. What you should do, and this is just my opinion, you should just trust that it will rise and enjoy it.

Wasn't it you who said.........


> I've realised I'm a person. How did I not see that earlier? It's obvious...I really am as stupid as every one's been telling me all along.


You realized you were a person the moment you stopped questioning it.
If I am wrong them just enjoy your new found re-birth and enjoy it.
Don't start breaking it down again.

Just my opinion, that's all............Greg

Edit: Every time I have had some sort of enlightenment was when I stopped looking for it.

Don't you see, it's about trust Rozanne..............Trust.
By continually questioning is implying disbelief, it is why I believe that silly old tart on the other site is a fraud.
No one can teach you, life teaches you, not a book, not some flaky old judgmental tart who thinks she is god, but life........life is your tutor.

*Bang's head against the wall*


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

This could be a semantics issue. I'm taking the word "drama" to mean being involved in life and experiencing meaningful things. Even if they are only meaningful to you. "drama" in the sense we usually use it means bad things happening to you, which I don't think is appropriate in this context, though maybe it is.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

More than likely you are right, the words aren't the meaning.

What happened, ....shit, I don't know, but something happened. I just realised I wasn't alone.


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