# Anxiety/depression/dp and testosterone



## simonlebon

Just curious on here if any of you have had you testosterone levels checked. Noah on youtube is a big proponent of this and although he isn't 100% in the depression category it does seem like that is what helped him a lot with his DP etc.






I am currently on Lexapro 30mg/Seroquel 100mg. The Seroquel was just raised from 37.5 to 100. And I think that is what helps me the most. I actually got my very bad case of dp/dr a year ago AFTER going off of seroquel. So I know that drug helps me. Lexapro, I'm not so sure.

Last summer my testosterone was 360, normal, but still low. I had it checked again last week and it's now 180. In the gutter. Has anyone on here tried testosterone replacement therapy? If you were in my situation, would you go ahead and just try the TRT before jacking around anymore with the psych meds?

Thanks


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## luctor et emergo

Search for "Andriol" and you will find my recent experiences.

Waiting for results of the blood test.

I think you should try TRT if you have a willing doctor.


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## Freddy_Fred

Low testosterone was discovered last year in April(176 Total, 38 free); about four months into DP/DR. Luck was on my side in that I didn't go into TRT as prescribed blindly. Although desperate for any kinda treatment that would alleviate my torturous symptoms, I quickly learned that TRT isn't so black and white. Low levels require a comprehensive hormone assessment to get a full picture of the orchestra of hormones. For example, downstream(pre courser) hormones might not be converting into testosterone, pituitary tumors or lesions could be at play, or there could be an overall dysfunction of the HPA axis due to head trauma. Testing just total and free is only a portion of a complex picture. Without the a comprehensive test(which I had done) you will not receive the correct diagnosis and treatment. I don't intend to sound like a salesman but I found an endocrinologist who test for all of the mentioned above. Aside from low testosterone being addressed, It was when doing this test that to my surprise, a specific hormone imbalance involving DHEA and testosterone was discovered which according to him, is caused by mercury/heavy metal toxicity. Point is, without his test I would have NEVER been tested for this and NEVER had discovered metal toxicity as an underlying cause for my hormone deficiencies/imbalances. Not saying this will be the case for you but he is truly a top player in his field. I'll provide videos where he discusses these things in detail. The test will cost you 1750 and he works with patients out of state. I believe you can do all this over mail and sype.

I haven't began his hormone protocol because I have to detox first. If you have the energy and time I STRONGLY suggest you get in contact with him.Hope I was of some help


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## Freddy_Fred

This video explains the "grey" area of TRT.


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## Surfer Rosa

It's good to check for low testosterone in treatment resistant depression. I don't know what it has to do with DP itself, but a little test (throw a Lyme blot in there) never hurts.


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## simonlebon

I plan on digging deeper before jumping on TRT, but I think that is definitely the path I am going down now before changing anything else with my psych meds. I am in IOP Program at the hospital now and I showed the psychiatrist today my 180 T level, and she even said that I should follow down that path first. For a psychiatrist to say that I think that is pretty huge. She said hormones are a very big factor in anxiety/depression.

I see my GP next week and am having T levels checked again just to make sure this reading wasn't a fluke and will most likely have him refer me to an endocrinologist before going on TRT. It's not something I want to just jump in to, but if there are no tumors/gland issues etc., I think it's going to be worth a shot. I don't see it being any more dangerous than SSRIs etc.

Thanks for the posts!


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## simonlebon

Freddy_Fred said:


> The test will cost you 1750 and he works with patients out of state. I believe you can do all this over mail and sype.


Which dr are you talking about? Does he have a website? thanks


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## Freddy_Fred

Dr. Mark Gordon is the one I was referring to. If you want to rule out any hormonal issues, Dr. Gordon is THE guy to see in my experience. He's been on the Joe Rogan podcast three times and is simply an extraordinarily bright guy. I'm not saying that any diagnosis will cure DP/DR, but its worth looking into if you're looking to improve your overall health. Anyway here's his website: http://www.millenniumhealthcenters.com/id2.html


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## Freddy_Fred

simonlebon said:


> I see my GP next week and am having T levels checked again just to make sure this reading wasn't a fluke and will most likely have him refer me to an endocrinologist before going on TRT. It's not something I want to just jump in to, but if there are no tumors/gland issues etc., I think it's going to be worth a shot. I don't see it being any more dangerous than SSRIs etc.
> 
> Thanks for the posts!


Since testosterone is highest in the morning, make sure you schedule your next blood draw in the morning as to not get an inaccurate result. Be honest. If its low, you should get refereed to an endocrinologist. He/She will either investigate further by ordering more test to find the source of you're problem, or he/she will put you on trt without any further testing. Here's where a lot of guys get in trouble in that primary hypogonadism or secondary hypogonadism is not correctly diagnosed resulting in the wrong treatment.(Big Knowno was a victim of this)

In MY experience, trt was prescribed without any further testing. If I would have started trt, I would have done significant damage to my endocrine system.The goal with seeing a good endocrinologist, is to find out if trt is ABSOLUTELY necessary. At 28 myself, it would have done more bad than good due to my specific lab results that were discovered by Dr. Gordon.

To save money, perhaps you can relay this info to your endocrinologist in a way that won't insult the ego. Doctors tend to be this way, but I've found a few that were cool on unrelated things.

You are going about this the right way in my opinion. Good luck.


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## mjones

wasn't test levels for me ----- I have been growing a good amount of facial hair, growing muscle and getting stronger.


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## simonlebon

Freddy_Fred said:


> Here's where a lot of guys get in trouble in that primary hypogonadism or secondary hypogonadism is not correctly diagnosed resulting in the wrong treatment.(Big Knowno was a victim of this)


I assume you had secondary? If so, do you know what the exact cause was? Sounds like there can be many different causes for both primary and secondary.

thanks


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## simonlebon

This is interesting. Never read of any direct correlation between psychotrpopic meds and testosterone.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3255409/

Certain medications are shown to reduce testosterone production. Among the medications known to alter the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis are spironolactone, corticosteroids, ketoconazole, ethanol, anticonvulsants, immunosuppressants, opiates, *psychotropic medications*, and hormones.


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## luctor et emergo

My lab. results: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=03712575321518218063

-supplementing too much vitamines
-very low testosterone
-elevated cortisol

now what?

Edit: doesn't seem to work, will add later.


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## Visual

luctor et emergo said:


> My lab. results: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=03712575321518218063
> 
> -supplementing too much vitamines
> -very low testosterone
> -elevated cortisol
> 
> now what?
> 
> Edit: doesn't seem to work, will add later.


Did they check your prolactin?


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## luctor et emergo

my lab. results: any comment / advice is welcome!

ref. value unit result

vitamin b 12 145-569 pmol/l 471

folic acid >10,0 nmol/l 37

ferritin 30-400 ug/l 276

vitamin A 1,2 - 2,7 umol/l 3,2

thiamin (b1) 80-200 nmol/l 225

vitamin b6 50-180 nmol/l >1000

vitamin d3 50-250 nmol/l 77

vitamin e 15-35 umol/l 29

FSH 1,5-12,4 U/l 8,6

LH 1,7-8,6 U/l 4,1

prolactin 86-324 mU/l 423

oestradiol 28-156 pmol/l 26

progestorone 0,7-4,3 nmol/l 6

testosterone 8,6-29 nmol/l 7,3

free testosterone 198-619 pmol/l 155

sex. horm. bind. glubolin 18,3-54,1 nmol/l 15,7

DHEA-sulfate 2,4-11,6 umol/l  8,2

androsteendion 2,1-10,8 nmol/l 6,1

morning cortisol 133-537 nmol/l 434

11-desexycortisol 0-10 nmol/l 2,5

17-OH-progesteron 1,8-6,5 nmol/l 1,9

sorry for the lay-out, pasting from Excel doesn't work and I don't know how to upload.


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## retep

Ask your doctor about take Clomid before jumping right into taking extraneous testosterone. The reason why is that if you have secondary hypogonadism, which has to do with the pituitary gland not working properly, you just may need a "jump start". The problem with taking extraneous testosterone is that it bypasses the pituitary gland and the testicles- what that can cause is shrinking of the testicles, shutting down of the pituitary gland and impotency. That's fine if you have primary hypogonadism and/or don't want children but not so good if all you have is the type of secondary hypogonadism that can be easily reversed. People who take extraneous testosterone have to take it the rest of their life- that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's definitely a big commitment.

Personally, I've been taking Clomid for a month and a half and have experienced some good results. My T level actually doubled, and in general I've had more energy and the ability to gain strength. I can't speak on its effects on depersonalization because at this point its barely noticeable, but I do feel more in my body since taking it which is an important step in recovery.


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## luctor et emergo

Thanks for your quick reply. This is a great article regarding Clomid: http://www.nature.com/ijir/journal/v15/n3/full/3900981a.html

The strange thing of this results are that I have been taking Andriol testocaps for 3 months

with a dosage above 120mg/d for 6 weeks reaching a maximum dose of 320mg/d,

that's roughly three times the recommended dose for depression!

My blood was tested in the second to last week on Andriol when the testosterone level should be at it's maximum.

I will mention Clomid this Wednesday to my psychiatrist. Great that you have been having good results!

What about Androxal? This isn't available yet, and maybe never will.

http://www.livescience.com/47094-clomid-treat-low-testosterone.html

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02160704

Repros Therapeutics (NASDAQ: RPRX) announced that the Division of Bone, Reproductive and Urologic Products of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has cancelled the scheduled November 3, 2015 advisory committee to review the Company's New Drug Application (NDA) for its enclomiphene product candidate, formerly known as Androxal®, *due to questions that arose late in the review regarding the bioanalytical method validation that could affect interpretability of certain pivotal study data.*

The FDA has expressed its willingness to work with Repros to address these questions. The FDA accepted the NDA for review on April 1, 2015 and later assigned a Prescription Drug User Fee Act (PDUFA) goal date of November 30, 2015.


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## Visual

There is a strong indicator of low dopamine, but first need to clarify:


What meds were you on at the time of (or weeks prior to) the blood test?
How did you do with Citalopram and Paroxetine?
How did you respond to ritalin, wellbutrin, and dexamfetamine?
Did any of these preceed your DP/DR?
Do you have visual perceptions symptoms (VS, halos, frames, afterimages, ...)?

Looking at FSH, LH, T and Prolactin, the likely area of dysfunction is the pituitary. Since FSH and LH are in range, it is unlikely to be primary hypogonadism. Secondary hypogonadism means that the pituitary/hypothalamus is not 'requesting' that you make more T.

The relationship between Prolactin, T, and Dopamine is:








While most texts discuss T in relationship to LH and FSH, this relationship receives less attention and involves PIF and GnRH.

Here are some document to consider:


"increase in prolactin leads to a decrease in testosterone" https://neuroendoimmune.wordpress.com/2013/11/13/dopamine-and-testosterone-two-important-pieces-of-the-neuroendocrine-puzzle/

"raised prolactin level suggests that further investigation of the pituitary gland should be undertaken" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1472884/

"Dopamine (DA) holds a predominant role in the regulation of prolactin (PRL) secretion" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18477617

While Clomid and its enantiomer under clinical trials are worth considering, they are estrogen blockers so as to blunt to feedback of hormones to the hypothalamus. More immediate would be to unclog the signalling regarding prolactin - to get D2 receptor activity up. Which meds to try next depends on your response above. Also, have you tried genetic testing as is available through 23andMe or Ancestry?


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## luctor et emergo

Visual many thanks for your extensive reply! My answers in short as I only have a mobile phone at home

1. keppra and flunerazine (the first 6 weeks)
2. in 2007. 75mg/d citaprolam with 200mg lamicatal for a few weeks, nothing
paroxetine, nothing except brain-zaps when discontinuing
3. in 2008, wellbutrin, nothing,

ritalin increased hearth rate, but I still could sleep and could drink more alcohol

dexamphetamine, increased hearth rate but I still could sleep and could drink more alcohol
4. no, I smoked weed everyday for 5 years prior to and at the start of dpd, drd
I used cocaine on a (sort of) weekly basis from 2003 to 2007, no significant effect on dpd, drd, it gave me energy and i could drink more alcohol
5. yes mainly floaters, threadlike strands / seaweed and visual snow + black specs + white dots, especially in bright light

I have had no genetic testing

medication wise, do you think in the likes of cabergoline (works on d2 receptors)?

no effect means no significant alleviation on dpd, drd

as i used named medications in 2007 and 2008, other (side)-effects could have occurred but they were minimal


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## luctor et emergo

more lab. results: 15-04-2014

ferritine ug/l 367 this has been around the 400 level for many years, surprised it has gone down to 276

13-05-2014
FSH U/l 18,6
LH U/l 4,6
testosterone nmol/l 17,9

Important to note is that after 7 years of daily Klonopin use, 3mg/d average, I decided to quit in oktober 2014.
My withdrawal was done in three months, which is way too fast.
Benzo withdrawal and HPA axis dysregulation have been researched, for instance: http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=44373.0also various thyroid conditions are mentioned during benzo use and in withdrawal.

*(part of) my post from 16-08-2015:* http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/49610-which-medications-have-you-had-success-with/page-5
"So an update after the 7 day mifepriston treatment. Very surprising outcome.
The purpose of this treatment was to reset the HPA axis,
a few weeks ago my morning plasma cortisol level after the DEX supression test was 52 nmol/L,
where 27 nmol/L is considered normal and 100 nmol/L is an indication for Cushing's syndrome.

"Last Sunday I had the follow up DEX supression test to determine my morning plasma cortisol level.
My psychiatrist had the results this afternoon. The level was 673 nmol/L !!!

Would like to read views from you guys / girls as to why the level is 13 times higher then 4 weeks ago.
I have some explanations after reading a few articles like http://www.aetna.com...0_499/0465.html

Other sources mention that after 8 weeks the levels should be back to normal,
but no idea if the original goal, resetting the HPA axis has been or will be reached."

*part of my post from 09-09-2015:* http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/49610-which-medications-have-you-had-success-with/page-6"

Last week they took 3 blood samples aigain. My morning cortisol was measured WITHOUT dex-suppression,
value was 694 nmol/L, where around 500 nmol/L is normal. ACTH was within normal values and 11-deoxycortisol / cortodoxone
will be presented to me this Friday. 11 deoxycortisol = 3,5 nmol/ L = normal, ACTH = 13,4 pg / ml = normal

There *must* be some correlation between the endocrine system, HPA axis imbalance and dpd, drd."

one last thing for now:

Common causes of *primary *hypogonadism include and *could *attribute to me:
*Undescended testicle(s).* Before birth, the testicles develop inside the abdomen and normally move down into their permanent place in the scrotum. Sometimes one or both of the testicles may not be descended at birth. This condition often corrects itself within the first few years of life without treatment. If not corrected in early childhood, it may lead to malfunction of the testicles and reduced production of testosterone.

*Hemochromatosis.* Too much iron in the blood can cause testicular failure or pituitary gland dysfunction affecting testosterone production.

Causes of secondary hypogonadism include and *definitely* attribute to me:
Hypogonadism in a male refers to a decrease in either or both of the two major functions of the testes: sperm production and/or testosterone production (see "Male reproductive physiology"). These abnormalities can result from disease of the testes (primary hypogonadism) or disease of the pituitary or hypothalamus (secondary hypogonadism). The distinction between these disorders is made by measurement of the serum concentrations of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH):
●The patient has primary hypogonadism if his serum testosterone concentration and/or *sperm count are low* and/or his serum LH and FSH concentrations are high.
●The patient has secondary hypogonadism if his serum testosterone concentration and/or the *sperm count are low and/or his serum LH and FSH concentrations are inappropriately normal* or low, which would be inappropriate if gonadotroph cell function were normal.
Secondary hypogonadism differs from primary hypogonadism in two characteristics:
●Secondary hypogonadism is usually associated with similar decreases in sperm and testosterone production. This occurs because the reduction in LH secretion results in a decrease in testicular testosterone production and, therefore, in intratesticular testosterone, which is the principal hormonal stimulus to sperm production. In contrast, there is generally a greater fall in sperm production than in testosterone secretion in primary hypogonadism because the seminiferous tubules are damaged to a greater degree than the Leydig cells. Men with primary hypogonadism, therefore, might have normal serum testosterone and LH concentrations even when the number of ejaculated sperm is very low or zero and the FSH concentration is elevated.

Visual, I hope you read these posts today and provide your insights and treatment options,
as I have an appointment with my very open-minded psychiatrist tomorrow.
You have helped many people on this forum for which you should get an honorable mention.


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## retep

luctor et emergo said:


> Thanks for your quick reply. This is a great article regarding Clomid: http://www.nature.com/ijir/journal/v15/n3/full/3900981a.html
> 
> The strange thing of this results are that I have been taking Andriol testocaps for 3 months
> with a dosage above 120mg/d for 6 weeks reaching a maximum dose of 320mg/d,
> that's roughly three times the recommended dose for depression!
> 
> My blood was tested in the second to last week on Andriol when the testosterone level should be at it's maximum.
> 
> I will mention Clomid this Wednesday to my psychiatrist. Great that you have been having good results!
> 
> What about Androxal? This isn't available yet, and maybe never will.
> 
> http://www.livescience.com/47094-clomid-treat-low-testosterone.html
> 
> https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02160704
> 
> Repros Therapeutics (NASDAQ: RPRX) announced that the Division of Bone, Reproductive and Urologic Products of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has cancelled the scheduled November 3, 2015 advisory committee to review the Company's New Drug Application (NDA) for its enclomiphene product candidate, formerly known as Androxal®, *due to questions that arose late in the review regarding the bioanalytical method validation that could affect interpretability of certain pivotal study data.*
> The FDA has expressed its willingness to work with Repros to address these questions. The FDA accepted the NDA for review on April 1, 2015 and later assigned a Prescription Drug User Fee Act (PDUFA) goal date of November 30, 2015.


I've been following the Repros Therapeutics saga. They have been trying to put this drug on the market for over a decade. The FDA has yet to approve it for one reason or another despite successful testing in the past. I don't know what the issue is, but it looks like the company is looking more at the European market for now which is a lot more accepting of new drugs than the US.


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## Visual

luctor et emergo said:


> Visual many thanks for your extensive reply! My answers in short as I only have a mobile phone at home
> 
> 1. keppra and flunerazine (the first 6 weeks)
> 2. in 2007. 75mg/d citaprolam with 200mg lamicatal for a few weeks, nothing
> paroxetine, nothing except brain-zaps when discontinuing
> 3. in 2008, wellbutrin, nothing,
> 
> ritalin increased hearth rate, but I still could sleep and could drink more alcohol
> 
> dexamphetamine, increased hearth rate but I still could sleep and could drink more alcohol
> 4. no, I smoked weed everyday for 5 years prior to and at the start of dpd, drd
> I used cocaine on a (sort of) weekly basis from 2003 to 2007, no significant effect on dpd, drd, it gave me energy and i could drink more alcohol
> 5. yes mainly floaters, threadlike strands / seaweed and visual snow + black specs + white dots, especially in bright light
> 
> I have had no genetic testing
> 
> medication wise, do you think in the likes of cabergoline (works on d2 receptors)?
> 
> no effect means no significant alleviation on dpd, drd
> 
> as i used named medications in 2007 and 2008, other (side)-effects could have occurred but they were minimal


Wow, lots to digest here. #1 med should not have any significant effects on dopamine. #3 shows you tolerate dopamine meds ... but did not notice improvements. #5 shows insignificant visual issues.

At this point it comes down to goals. The title of the thread is about Anxiety connected with DP and with low T. The gentleman in the video states his DP was directly connected to Anxiety and addressing low T along with other things helped his problems.

Since you were on Klonopin, you just have Anxiety, and perhaps your DP is directly connected to your anxiety. #3 and #4 indicate you may not have much of a dopamine problem although prolatin/T ratios indicate D2 issues. Now that can be anxiety driven.

In 2014 your FSH, LH, and T were in good ranges - what happened between the two ... were you on Klonopin then?

Cabergoline is a great med with a very serious side-effect. Long term damages heart valves. It used to be used for PD at ~3mg/day. At that does, in 10 years you have 10% change of needing a valve replacement and 50% change of having notably 'leaky' valves. At 1-3mg/week it is used for pituitary tumors and seems to be safe.

With that in mind, you might want to start with one of your ADD meds or with PD meds such as Sinemet 25/100.

With HPPD, visual symptoms are promenant and about half of people with it respond well with such meds. And many have DP/DR with their visual symptoms. Nearly all (but not all) have worse visuals with antipsychotics (anti-dopamine) meds. And most flare up with SSRIs. Many have symptom intensity tied with anxiety ... so treating anxiety is most important for these cases.

Statistics seem a little different here. King Elliot posted that ~20% have reduced DP with antipsychotics. (And antipsychotics are used to treat anxiety).

Treating low T is good. I am 'suspicious' of using TRT and more interested in 'fixing' pathways so your own body makes T ... after all, you are young and your organs are probably fine. Didn't quite catch how the guy in the video treated his low T.

From my perspective, low T with high PRT should be treated by increasing dopamine ... unless a person has problems with that method. Clomid might be interesting as a second step.

So would you say anxiety is your number one problem to treat?

Was the blood test after the tolcapone/sinemet trial?

How about after Andriol? If that is the case, it would explain it.

You have done a lot of stuff in quick succession. With hormones it takes weeks to settle/balance. With adrenal function it can take 12 months!

Have a brother who says cocaine is like water ... does nothing. And that seems to be your case too. So this is a puzzle (in the case of brother, there is close genetic relationship yet opposite problems).



simonlebon said:


> I plan on digging deeper before jumping on TRT, but I think that is definitely the path I am going down now before changing anything else with my psych meds. I am in IOP Program at the hospital now and I showed the psychiatrist today my 180 T level, and she even said that I should follow down that path first. For a psychiatrist to say that I think that is pretty huge. She said hormones are a very big factor in anxiety/depression.
> 
> I see my GP next week and am having T levels checked again just to make sure this reading wasn't a fluke and will most likely have him refer me to an endocrinologist before going on TRT. It's not something I want to just jump in to, but if there are no tumors/gland issues etc., I think it's going to be worth a shot. I don't see it being any more dangerous than SSRIs etc.
> 
> Thanks for the posts!


Ask your doctors about the effects of the Seroquel on your T since it is a D2 antagonist and would normally lower it. It may be a question of which symptom to treat since Seroquel is helping your DP (do you think it helps DP by helping anxiety?)


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## luctor et emergo

Visual said:


> Wow, lots to digest here. #1 med should not have any significant effects on dopamine. #3 shows you tolerate dopamine meds ... but did not notice improvements. #5 shows insignificant visual issues.
> 
> At this point it comes down to goals. The title of the thread is about Anxiety connected with DP and with low T. The gentleman in the video states his DP was directly connected to Anxiety and addressing low T along with other things helped his problems.
> 
> Since you were on Klonopin, you just have Anxiety, and perhaps your DP is directly connected to your anxiety.
> 
> I was on Klonopin because the medication I tried before had no significant effect on dpd, drd.
> 
> But while on Klonopin my dpd, drd intensity was exactly the same, the only thing that was a bit alleviated was my general day to day anxiety
> 
> but I *still *had panic attacks, excessive worrying and racing thoughts, overall anxiety et cetera
> 
> While i was on holiday in Greece in 2007, I took 6mg/d Klonopin and *still* had one of my most intense panic attacks ever, which almost led to hospitalization.
> 
> #3 and #4 indicate you may not have much of a dopamine problem although prolatin/T ratios indicate D2 issues. Now that *can* be anxiety driven.
> 
> Could longterm use of weed and later cocaine have "fried" my dopamine receptors? I also did some XTC and one time mushrooms while I was 17, horrible bad trip.
> 
> In 2014 your FSH, LH, and T were in good ranges - what happened between the two ... were you on Klonopin then?
> 
> I was on Klonopin from 2008 to end 2014.
> 
> Cabergoline is a great med with a very serious side-effect. Long term damages heart valves. It used to be used for PD at ~3mg/day.
> 
> At that does, in 10 years you have 10% change of needing a valve replacement and 50% change of having notably 'leaky' valves.
> 
> At 1-3mg/week it is used for pituitary tumors and seems to be safe.
> 
> With that in mind, you might want to start with one of your ADD meds or with PD meds such as Sinemet 25/100.
> 
> A couple of weeksago I tried Sinemet 25/100 for two weeks in combination with Tolcapon as mentioned by dr. Abraham: http://amrglobal.powweb.com/?s=sinemet
> 
> as this drug is fast acting I was hoping for immediate effects on HPPD like symptons and dpd, drd. But aside from a slightly more intense hearthbeat and a tight jaw the first day, it did nothing.
> 
> What ADD med are you thinking of?
> 
> With HPPD, visual symptoms are promenant and about half of people with it respond well with such meds. And many have DP/DR with their visual symptoms. Nearly all (but not all) have worse visuals with antipsychotics (anti-dopamine) meds. And most flare up with SSRIs. Many have symptom intensity tied with anxiety ... so treating anxiety is most important for these cases.
> 
> At the moment I'm taking Prozac for my anxiety as this also is succesfully used by various family members. Combination is with Lamotrigine as suggested by King's College.
> 
> Statistics seem a little different here. King Elliot posted that ~20% have reduced DP with antipsychotics. (And antipsychotics are used to treat anxiety).
> 
> Treating low T is good. I am 'suspicious' of using TRT and more interested in 'fixing' pathways so your own body makes T ... after all, you are young and your organs are probably fine. Didn't quite catch how the guy in the video treated his low T.
> 
> One year ago my organs were routinely checked by an endocrinologist, he used his hands and a stethoscope, nothing came up.
> 
> From my perspective, low T with high PRT should be treated by increasing dopamine ... unless a person has problems with that method. Clomid might be interesting as a second step.
> 
> So would you say anxiety is your number one problem to treat?
> 
> No because I had my first panic attack in 2006, this was approximately 3 to 4 years *after *my dpd, drd slowly became chronic.
> 
> Ask your doctors about the effects of the Seroquel on your T since it is a D2 antagonist and would normally lower it. It may be a question of which symptom to treat since Seroquel is helping your DP (do you think it helps DP by helping anxiety?)
> 
> Like mentioned before, I don't think that in my case reducing anxiety will lead directly to reducing dpd, drd.


The emphasis is on my drug abuse, but if you read my intro post: http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/50584-dp-dr-veteran-and-survivor-of-klonopin-withdrawal/#entry352760

you will notice that there are more buildings blocks to my permanent dpd'ed, drd'ed state. As with most people there is no defined cause or trigger.

Again thank you for your insights Visual!

ps: apologies for the reply lay-out, I now see that I should have multi-quoted.


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## Visual

Unless there was a very specific event, its hard to know why one gets these things. Accumulated weed use? Stress? Even combinations with aging. Memories from your military years? Memories from childhood? (Or non-memories when they are repressed)

Some get into debates that its all emotional and nothing 'physical' can cause it. But cases abound all over the spectrum.

Did klonopin help your DP/DR? Why did you discontinue?

Besides numb emotions, how would you describe your DP and DR?


----------



## simonlebon

Saw endocrinologist yesterday. She is going to retest my total test and free test, and also LH, FSH and prolactin. Will be interesting.

Kind of confused above. If LH and FSH are in range, that means that the problem would NOT be secondary hypogonadism, because the signal IS being sent by the pituitary. More points toward primary hypogonadism (in your balls).

I did ask her about clomid. She said she has maybe only used it once and that isn't what they use because there are no long term studies on it. So she said I could try it for maybe six months or whatever, but there is no longer term use cases on it. That's the medical point of view on it. I'd have to read more about it. Doesn't matter now until I know what's going on. If my LH and FSH are good, then clomid wouldn't do me any good anyway.

I also asked her about long term use of psychotropic meds and the effect on testosterone. She said none of the meds I'm on have been correlated to that, but she did mention a few others that she said there may be some correlation with. Geodon was one she did mention. I can't remember the other few she threw out. I'm on escitalopram and quietapine and klonopin. She didn't seem to think any of those would affect testosterone. Or at least no studies showing that. But who knows. :/


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## luctor et emergo

The blood test was done on 25-03-2016. This was the second to last week on Andriol 300mg/d, so on it's peak levels. Sinemet + Tolcapone was from 07 to 13-03-2015. One week instead of two.



Visual said:


> Did klonopin help your DP/DR? Why did you discontinue?
> 
> Besides numb emotions, how would you describe your DP and DR?


Klonopin did not help with my dpd, drd. The only thing it did was lower my baseline anxiety a bit. That made being in a permanent dp, dr state a little more bearable. The intensity of dp, dr was a bit less fearfull.

I quit Klonopin because I had built up a tolerance for years. The overall calming effect it had backfired so panic attacks and racing thoughts were coming back with a vengeance. When I upped the dose sometimes I would get exrtra intense brainfog.
The other important reason was the effects long term use could have on my fertility as my then wife and I were trying to have childen via IUI treatments.

I had not considered that the cause of my decreased spermcount and -motility could be a result of primary- or secondary hypogonadism.

Since quitting I suffer from post withdrawal symptons for the last 16 months, so the protracted withdrawal at 18 months comes near. Symptons have faded somewhat. Now they still are heightened anxiety and loud tinnitus. And maybe the low testosterone is partly an effect?

My dpd, drd is feeling unreal. No connection with my body, no connection with my reflection in the mirror. People are robot-like to me, as I am myself. Poor recognition of facial expressions. Poor night vision. Poor working, short term memory. Poor information processing. Feeling generally disconnected from my environment. Brainfog.

Should I ask for Clomid or Geodon or an other APP or Seroquel or TRT with patches, needles or nothing and wait?


----------



## Visual

simonlebon said:


> Saw endocrinologist yesterday. She is going to retest my total test and free test, and also LH, FSH and prolactin. Will be interesting.
> 
> Kind of confused above. If LH and FSH are in range, that means that the problem would NOT be secondary hypogonadism, because the signal IS being sent by the pituitary. More points toward primary hypogonadism (in your balls).
> 
> I did ask her about clomid. She said she has maybe only used it once and that isn't what they use because there are no long term studies on it. So she said I could try it for maybe six months or whatever, but there is no longer term use cases on it. That's the medical point of view on it. I'd have to read more about it. Doesn't matter now until I know what's going on. If my LH and FSH are good, then clomid wouldn't do me any good anyway.
> 
> I also asked her about long term use of psychotropic meds and the effect on testosterone. She said none of the meds I'm on have been correlated to that, but she did mention a few others that she said there may be some correlation with. Geodon was one she did mention. I can't remember the other few she threw out. I'm on escitalopram and quietapine and klonopin. She didn't seem to think any of those would affect testosterone. Or at least no studies showing that. But who knows. :/


This text describes primary vs secondary: "In selected patients, FSH, LH, and prolactin can be measured. If the FSH and LH levels are raised, this suggests a primary testicular cause, and if levels are low or normal, a hypothalamic or pituitary cause should be considered. A raised prolactin level suggests that further investigation of the pituitary gland should be undertaken" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1472884/ under "Which Testosterone Value to Measure in Practice?"

There are studies of Clomid around a year. Whatever the LH and FSH levels are, it would likely raise them more because of the way it works. Here are a couple interesting studies:


http://brazjurol.com.br/july_august_2012/DaRos_512_518.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4155868/

SSRIs vary. Know one guy on Lexapro that called it Sexapro because it raises his libido. But when they switched him to Celexia, his libido crashed (even though Celexia is 50% of Lexapro).

Generally speaking, all SSRIs can cause "extrapyramidal symptoms" which are movement problems due to lower dopamine. And lower dopamine usually lowers testosterone. Doctors are taught to use protocol and discouraged to research and try new things ... they can even loose their license doing so.

Your doctor wants to read: A --> Z but the answer is A --> B --> C --> D --> ... Here are documents that are A --> Z, but with different possible routes:


"These data suggest that SSRIs have a negative effect on testicular tissues" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24642156
"Sexual dysfunction is a frequent side effect of antipsychotic treatment" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18466271

There is a lot of information out there. Doctors want to see result cut-in-stone. Reality is rarely that way.


----------



## Visual

luctor et emergo said:


> The blood test was done on 25-03-2016. This was the second to last week on Andriol 300mg/d, so on it's peak levels. Sinemet + Tolcapone was from 07 to 13-03-2015. One week instead of two.
> 
> Klonopin did not help with my dpd, drd. The only thing it did was lower my baseline anxiety a bit. That made being in a permanent dp, dr state a little more bearable. The intensity of dp, dr was a bit less fearfull.
> 
> I quit Klonopin because I had built up a tolerance for years. The overall calming effect it had backfired so panic attacks and racing thoughts were coming back with a vengeance. When I upped the dose sometimes I would get exrtra intense brainfog.
> The other important reason was the effects long term use could have on my fertility as my then wife and I were trying to have childen via IUI treatments.
> 
> I had not considered that the cause of my decreased spermcount and -motility could be a result of primary- or secondary hypogonadism.
> 
> Since quitting I suffer from post withdrawal symptons for the last 16 months, so the protracted withdrawal at 18 months comes near. Symptons have faded somewhat. Now they still are heightened anxiety and loud tinnitus. And maybe the low testosterone is partly an effect?
> 
> My dpd, drd is feeling unreal. No connection with my body, no connection with my reflection in the mirror. People are robot-like to me, as I am myself. Poor recognition of facial expressions. Poor night vision. Poor working, short term memory. Poor information processing. Feeling generally disconnected from my environment. Brainfog.
> 
> Should I ask for Clomid or Geodon or an other APP or Seroquel or TRT with patches, needles or nothing and wait?


While not familiar with Klonopin lowering sperm count, if it isn't doing much, it is best to wean off if one can.

Taking androgen will lower natural production of T and sperm. So for fertility, an estrogen blocker should be excellent. So with having a child as a goal (separate of DP/DR) talk to your doctor about it (Clomid) - it should work. Whereas taking testosterone or other androgens causes the hypothalamus to put the brakes on natural production of T and reduce sperm. Weight lifters get that problem - taking too much androgen elevates prolactin and they start getting man-boobs ... so then take cabergoline to stop the prolactin.

So, you probably want to prioritize fertility until that goal is reached - we wish you success there!

As for your other symptoms, how do you do with anticholinergics and/or antihistmines? Have you tried Benedryl recently?


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## luctor et emergo

No you misunderstood. My mistake. The wish for children was in 2013 and 2014. As I quit Klonopin, I became severly depressed the first six months of 2015. This along with a lot of other relationship issues led to me requesting a divorce... not a nice story.

So children are out of the question. 
Still opt for Clomid then? 
As I don't see anything significant happening with patches or injections.

Anticholinergics or antihistmines are undiscovered territory for me.
I will look up Benedryl.

Thanks again Visual.


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## Visual

My mistake ... missed the "then wife" part, sorry for your loss. Am married, its not always smooth with my illness and her illnesses. My 'DP' component is more like mild autism, where a person is often in their own world - that is hard for a woman to put up with.

Clomid should raise T. Give the above text a look ... it works better than testosterone gels - something like 350 -> 600 vs 350 -> 500 give or take.

Give Benedryl a try. It will probably worsen brainfog ... but you never know. Then you can try the opposite things. L-histidine as neurotransmitter. Then look up stuff that might increase acetylcholine.

Often DA and NE are used to increase cognition (such as Provigil). But these type of meds haven't helped you (of course there are combinations and rapid changes as well). So there is the acetylcholine direction.

Keppra will almost always cause memory problems and brainfog (if you are still on that)


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## luctor et emergo

Massive respect for the partners of dp, dr people. They will never understand us, but still they manage to live with us.

Ok so Clomid is a safe suggestion for tomorrow, will do with support of the articles.

As for the other options. Benadryl, Modafenil, Acetylcholine and Provigil.
Maybe it's wise to let my system first get used to the meds I'm currently taking.

DA is dopamine agonist and NE is?

Currently I'm on prozac 20mg/d and Lamotrigine 300mg/d.

I tend to try these for about 6? months.

Keppra has been discontinued for over 5 weeks.


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## luctor et emergo

Clomid it is. 25mg/d. When should I take another blood test?

When should it have effect on anxiety as the half life is about 7 days so steady state will be reached in a month.


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## Visual

DA is Dopamine
NE is Norepinephrine
SER is Serotonin

Actually don't know about what kind of connection low T and anxiety has (which is the title of the thread). So don't know if Clomid would improve anxiety. Tend to view low T as a symptom of stuff but not so much a cause of anxiety. For example, castration is not known to cause dogs/cats to become anxious ... it is known to calm a little bit sometimes, and to reduce aggression.

Clomid should increase T. Your T was fine a couple years ago ... were you less anxious then? As for blood tests, if you look at the Clomid links earlier, response is seen quickly but you may wish to give it a few weeks.

It may have been low recently due to the Andriol testocaps - perhaps Andriol doesn't show up as testosterone in blood tests. Note that Andriol can cause nervousness and depression. http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/profs/datasheet/a/AndriolTestocaps.pdf Keep in mind that high T is associated with aggression, agitation and mood swings (as bodybuilders on steroids report).

Just a quick review about some neurotransmitters

Serotonin is calming and naturally highest before going to bed

Dopamine is stimulating, motivating, and highest in the morning. DA and T both are part of ambition. Motivation/ambition are about being dissatisfied with the status quo &#8230; setting goals and working toward them, thus they are not calming
One can see the rational of prescribing SSRIs for anxiety. And antipsychotics (anti-DA) for anxiety.

However it is more complicated because both these neurotransmitters have many other functions and regulating roles. Motivation is just one of DA roles. Controlling movement is an example of a regulating role (its lack seen in Parkinson's) and has nothing to do with being calm or anxious in that case. Also, people with ADD/ADHD find dopamine calming instead of stimulating.

Now you have already tried ADD meds without anything wonderful happening. You're taking SSRIs and apparently that is not helping your DP &#8230; is it helping anxiety a little? You've taken some antiseizure meds without anything remarkable happening.

So far you haven't mentioned having really bad reactions to meds. Seems that you are 'rugged' compared to most &#8230; there are some that have problems with simple vitamins, herbs, or supplements.

Mentioned histamine and acetylcholine because it would seem you need to start exploring other neurotransmitters - neither DA, NE, or SER seem to have helped you. You tried several hormones altering meds (Andriol, Mifepristone) without help with either anxiety or DP.

At this point you seem focused on evaluating if raising T will reduce anxiety, so Clomid makes sense. So for the next month, just change that and see how you feel.

It would be helpful if you start making a log with + and - regarding major symptoms in response to meds. This info needs to kept in a timeline to preserve context. In some cases, results are seen with combinations - can be a long process to figure out.

DP can be dissociation because of past trauma. You mentioned EMDR and Sensorimotor Psychotherapy. What about good old fashion talk therapy? Aside from trying to dredge the past, there are practical things with CBT.

You identify anxiety as causing of DP/DR. Anxiety IS an emotion, and when strong it blocks out all others. Perhaps reverse engineering from that emotion you can start to experience other ones.


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## Alex617

Freddy_Fred said:


> Low testosterone was discovered last year in April(176 Total, 38 free); about four months into DP/DR. Luck was on my side in that I didn't go into TRT as prescribed blindly. Although desperate for any kinda treatment that would alleviate my torturous symptoms, I quickly learned that TRT isn't so black and white. Low levels require a comprehensive hormone assessment to get a full picture of the orchestra of hormones. For example, downstream(pre courser) hormones might not be converting into testosterone, pituitary tumors or lesions could be at play, or there could be an overall dysfunction of the HPA axis due to head trauma. Testing just total and free is only a portion of a complex picture. Without the a comprehensive test(which I had done) you will not receive the correct diagnosis and treatment. I don't intend to sound like a salesman but I found an endocrinologist who test for all of the mentioned above. Aside from low testosterone being addressed, It was when doing this test that to my surprise, a specific hormone imbalance involving DHEA and testosterone was discovered which according to him, is caused by mercury/heavy metal toxicity. Point is, without his test I would have NEVER been tested for this and NEVER had discovered metal toxicity as an underlying cause for my hormone deficiencies/imbalances. Not saying this will be the case for you but he is truly a top player in his field. I'll provide videos where he discusses these things in detail. The test will cost you 1750 and he works with patients out of state. I believe you can do all this over mail and sype.
> 
> I haven't began his hormone protocol because I have to detox first. If you have the energy and time I STRONGLY suggest you get in contact with him.Hope I was of some help


Fucking quack, was agreeing with everything you said until the heavy metal toxicity bullshit. Whoever reads this please do not waste $1750 on this hypochondriac garbage. Do the tests for testosterone, FSH, lh and dhea-s. Get a pituitary and testicular test if you are low. That's all you need for a competent endocrinologist to give you proper treatment

Also remember this is no magical cure. Girls get dp/Dr too and they don't need a lot of testosterone.


----------



## Alex617

Visual said:


> At this point you seem focused on evaluating if raising T will reduce anxiety, so Clomid makes sense. So for the next month, just change that and see how you feel.
> 
> It would be helpful if you start making a log with + and - regarding major symptoms in response to meds. This info needs to kept in a timeline to preserve context. In some cases, results are seen with combinations - can be a long process to figure out.
> 
> DP can be dissociation because of past trauma. You mentioned EMDR and Sensorimotor Psychotherapy. What about good old fashion talk therapy? Aside from trying to dredge the past, there are practical things with CBT.
> 
> You identify anxiety as causing of DP/DR. Anxiety IS an emotion, and when strong it blocks out all others. Perhaps reverse engineering from that emotion you can start to experience other ones.


Please no clomid, it has a Z isomer which has estrogenic effects and can increase anxiety and mood disorder. Try nolvadex. Or toremifene if you can try it. Once they release androxal, the useful isomer of clomid exclusively, it might be the best one available.


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## luctor et emergo

Visual said:


> Actually don't know about what kind of connection low T and anxiety has (which is the title of the thread).
> So don't know if Clomid would improve anxiety. Tend to view low T as a symptom of stuff but not so much a cause of anxiety.
> For example, castration is not known to cause dogs/cats to become anxious ... it is known to calm a little bit sometimes, and to reduce aggression.
> 
> There are various posts on anxiety- and panic forums where Clomid is used to help with (generalized) anxiety, also (your) reports mention the positve effect on Testosterone and anxiety.
> 
> Clomid should increase T. Your T was fine a couple years ago ... were you less anxious then? As for blood tests, if you look at the Clomid links earlier, response is seen quickly but you may wish to give it a few weeks.
> 
> My baseline anxiety was a bit less, this I attribute to the dampening effect of Klonopin.
> 
> Now you have already tried ADD meds without anything wonderful happening. You're taking SSRIs and apparently that is not helping your DP &#8230; is it helping anxiety a little? You've taken some antiseizure meds without anything remarkable happening.
> So far you haven't mentioned having really bad reactions to meds. Seems that you are 'rugged' compared to most &#8230; there are some that have problems with simple vitamins, herbs, or supplements.
> 
> Yes my tolerance to meds is high compaired to what I read from other members. Maybe it's because I'm a fast liver metabolisher, maybe because my drug use?
> I have the same levels of anxiety as 10 years ago, I wrote in diaries back then and now. There it states SSRI's did nothing significant on anxiety.
> 
> It would be helpful if you start making a log with + and - regarding major symptoms in response to meds. This info needs to kept in a timeline to preserve context. In some cases, results are seen with combinations - can be a long process to figure out.
> 
> As mentioned, I have been keeping diaries for years. not always consistently but detailed enough to be reliable. In my old agenda's there are notes on my medication use, so I can fairly say there is documentation.
> 
> DP can be dissociation because of past trauma. You mentioned EMDR and Sensorimotor Psychotherapy. What about good old fashion talk therapy? Aside from trying to dredge the past, there are practical things with CBT.
> 
> The early life trauma has been extensively researched last year. Emotional trauma was part of my childhood. Have you heard of the "still face experiment" that is one of the factors which probably "helped"in creating my cPTSD -> dissociative symptons.
> Talk therapy has been going on since 2006, on all kinds of levels, it made me understand myself and why I became who I am (so in that sense I'm not dissociated!)
> but on the visual and auditory and somatic level the CBT / talk therapy did nothing. CBT learns you how to cope with dpd, drd, anxiety but it doesn't go to the root of the problems.
> 
> You identify anxiety as causing of DP/DR. Anxiety IS an emotion, and when strong it blocks out all others. Perhaps reverse engineering from that emotion you can start to experience other ones.
> 
> How would one reverse engineer anxiety? Like I said before, depersonalization and derealization came a couple years before anxiety. I do believe they are intertwined with each other on a highly complicated level.


Edit:

*"Please no clomid, it has a Z isomer which has estrogenic effects and can increase anxiety and mood disorder. Try nolvadex. *

*Or toremifene if you can try it. Once they release androxal, the useful isomer of clomid exclusively, it might be the best one available."*

Reading about negative adverse effects isn't very helpfull for anxiety... clomid, nolvadex and there will be reports on toremife as well.

http://www.bodybuildingdungeon.com/forums/steroids/43337-clomid-nolva-death-bottle-worst-drugs-ever-made-will-not-help-recovery.html

So it's confusing which meds to use and when and in what combinations, but I have accepted that this comes with trying to feel more alive and less in a dream like state.

After quitting Klonopin I was in such a bad state... and then I made a promise to myself that I would try anything, whether it be meds, therapy, yoga, mindfulness, supplements et cetera or everything combined

to find some relief. Also my belief is that I have already reached my lowest point ever in the period Oktober 2014 to May 2015 so I'm determined to succeed.

Above probably accounts for the majority of the posters on this forum, we all want to heal.

ps: how do I multiquote or something like that? This reply is not in the format I want it to be. :smile:


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## Alex617

luctor et emergo said:


> Edit:
> 
> *"Please no clomid, it has a Z isomer which has estrogenic effects and can increase anxiety and mood disorder. Try nolvadex. *
> *Or toremifene if you can try it. Once they release androxal, the useful isomer of clomid exclusively, it might be the best one available."*
> 
> Reading about negative adverse effects isn't very helpfull for anxiety... clomid, nolvadex and there will be reports on toremife as well.
> http://www.bodybuildingdungeon.com/forums/steroids/43337-clomid-nolva-death-bottle-worst-drugs-ever-made-will-not-help-recovery.html
> 
> So it's confusing which meds to use and when and in what combinations, but I have accepted that this comes with trying to feel more alive and less in a dream like state.
> After quitting Klonopin I was in such a bad state... and then I made a promise to myself that I would try anything, whether it be meds, therapy, yoga, mindfulness, supplements et cetera or everything combined
> to find some relief. Also my belief is that I have already reached my lowest point ever in the period Oktober 2014 to May 2015 so I'm determined to succeed.
> 
> Above probably accounts for the majority of the posters on this forum, we all want to heal.
> 
> ps: how do I multiquote or something like that? This reply is not in the format I want it to be. :smile:


Better you hear it now than try it and get the very common side effect of anxiety from clomid. You could be fine, but a lot of people report mood swings from that drug. I have you two viable options which are both great for raising gonadotropin and increasing testosterone levels. Toremifene in particular has been shown to have extra benefits like osteogenesis (stronger bones). Myself I will be trialling nolvadex in two weeks. I also recently decided to stop using benzos (temazepam) and it's a fucking nightmare of a rollercoaster.


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## luctor et emergo

Thanks for your concern, greatly appreciated. Could you provide some researches on toremifene and / or nolvadex and the effects on testosterone + anxiety?

From what I've read clomifene is more often prescribed and Visual provided the research papers which are quite positive.

The effective dose could be 25mg once every day. That's much lower then either women and especially body builders use. So one would say the possible adverse effects are rare.

How is that with toremifene and nolvadex?

Also I wonder what the period of time is for using these meds? A cycle, a year, indefinetely?

Did you quit temazepam cold turkey? Regardless I wish you the best with post withdrawal symptons.


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## Alex617

Here:

https://thinksteroids.com/community/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd178%2FEnvenomed732%2Fnolvtorral-1.gif&hash=09556945339b27e74bfcd99a17d6f81d

Clomid is the oldest and most researched SERM, hence the most used. All SERMs work pretty much the same way, varying in side-effects. Clomid being the worst out of them all, including anxiety and visual problems (although they all have this risk).

Nolvadex is 10mg for this kind of thing, 20mg for bodybuilders. Usually it's a 6week cycle, if it doesn't help or you go back to low testosterone after the therapy then you must do TRT indefinitely.

Yes I quit cold turkey, but I was only using it for 2 months every second day, sometimes only half a mg.


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## luctor et emergo

After some searching I found something relevant for me, as I'm taking Fluoxetine...Nolvadex (tamoxifen) has interactions with it.

But drug interactions also contribute - an important consideration for mental health clinicians, as approximately 20% to 30% of the women who take tamoxifen also use antidepressants

to alleviate depression, anxiety, or hot flashes. Some antidepressants are such strong inhibitors of CYP2D6 that women who take these drugs may not benefit from tamoxifen.

Two papers suggest that three antidepressants - *paroxetine (Paxil), fluoxetine (Prozac), and bupropion (Wellbutrin) - are most likely to inhibit CYP2D6 and interfere with tamoxifen treatment.*

In one paper, researchers at McGill University reviewed seven clinical studies of women taking both tamoxifen and antidepressants.

They also examined laboratory studies to assess the inhibitory effects of various antidepressants on the CYP2D6 enzyme in cell cultures.

They found consistent evidence that two selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) - paroxetine and fluoxetine - were strong inhibitors of CYP2D6.

Indirect evidence from the laboratory studies suggested that bupropion, an antidepressant that affects the neurotransmitters norepinephrine and dopamine, also severely inhibits CYP2D6.

Other drugs had less of an impact on this enzyme

*"interaction between the two could lower the concentration of the strong active metabolite endoxifen with 65-75% and should be avoided. *


----------



## Visual

Smart look at drug clearance and interactions. What about with Clomid?

I've never used either med ... or any like it. So with this in mind, can't make a recommend. But a few thoughts are:


Bodybuilders have lots of knowledge of T meds and so are a good resource to review. Remember their goals are muscle mass (sometimes at all costs), not the goals here

The idea of low T causing anxiety may be over simplistic and not a lot of info ... but here is one article http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15939408 (just remember taking T will alter neurotransmitters, so the reason for the results of this study have yet to be understood)

There are lots of reports of increased anxiety with increased T

Haven't looked at novadex before, so don't have opinion

Because Clomid has been being used off-label and because of those studies, it seems a reasonable option at low dose for short time. The fact that they are making a 'filtered' version of it for trial is also positive - but it hasn't passed approval either. While there is logic to the 'filtered' version, the bottom line IS the bottom line (money) - Clomid is now generic thus no longer a money maker or even cost effective for the manufacturer to try to get approval (of which their competitors would reap benefit at not cost to themselves).

Chronic low T is unhealthy (unless trying to fight estrogen sensitive cancer). There is some debate as to what level constitutes low enough to be considered low.

Remember all meds have side effects to watch for and you've been trying plenty of things in rather short period of time. How long has it been since you took the Andriol? Be sure to give your body time to stabilize from all that you've done recently.


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## luctor et emergo

Again useful comments! Andriol has been five weeks ago since I stopped.

So it maybe too early to start taking SERMS, on the other hand bodybuilders use them as post cycle therapy...

edit: haven't found drug interactions with Clomid


----------



## Freddy_Fred

Alex617 said:


> Fucking quack, was agreeing with everything you said until the heavy metal toxicity bullshit. Whoever reads this please do not waste $1750 on this hypochondriac garbage. Do the tests for testosterone, FSH, lh and dhea-s. Get a pituitary and testicular test if you are low. That's all you need for a competent endocrinologist to give you proper treatment
> 
> Also remember this is no magical cure. Girls get dp/Dr too and they don't need a lot of testosterone.


First of all, it sucks to hear that your having a difficult time withdrawing from Benzos, which is refraining me from telling you that you should probably change your profile picture to another one that doesn't look like you're cupping the balls of another man while you're G-string is being pulled down(not that there's anything wrong with that; just saying). So I mean that with care and love.

Oh Alex, what am I going to do with you. (Deep sight) Ok, so how am I a quack or hypochondriac when it was Dr. Gordon who explained that my abnormally high DHEA and low Testosterone could be due to metal toxicity? Skip to 38:38 in case you didn't catch it the first time in the first video below.

All I did in my post was explain my personal experience with being tested for testosterone and how that lead to finding a great endocrinologist. Unlike YOU, I'm not coming on here commanding people on what to take or not take. How cool are you eh? And I clearly stated in another post that I don't claim that TRT is the cure to DP/DR; its just good for overall health is what I said.

With that said, what's YOUR explanation with DHEA being abnormally high and Testosterone being low? I'm all ears sweet cheeks. 

To Forum: I will personally message Alex.


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## Visual

Freddy_Fred said:


> With that said, what's YOUR explanation with DHEA being abnormally high and Testosterone being low? I'm all ears sweet cheeks.


High DHEA and low T can be several things, here are a few


Adrenal problems
High carb, junk food diet
Genetic metabolic pathway problems


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## Alex617

Freddy_Fred said:


> First of all, it sucks to hear that your having a difficult time withdrawing from Benzos, which is refraining me from telling you that you should probably change your profile picture to another one that doesn't look like you're cupping the balls of another man while you're G-string is being pulled down(not that there's anything wrong with that; just saying). So I mean that with care and love.


You look like a photo the news would use to warn people of lurking pedophiles.



> Oh Alex, what am I going to do with you. (Deep sight) Ok, so how am I a quack or hypochondriac when it was Dr. Gordon who explained that my abnormally high DHEA and low Testosterone could be due to metal toxicity? Skip to 38:38 in case you didn't catch it the first time in the first video below.
> 
> All I did in my post was explain my personal experience with being tested for testosterone and how that lead to finding a great endocrinologist. Unlike YOU, I'm not coming on here commanding people on what to take or not take. How cool are you eh? And I clearly stated in another post that I don't claim that TRT is the cure to DP/DR; its just good for overall health is what I said.
> 
> With that said, what's YOUR explanation with DHEA being abnormally high and Testosterone being low? I'm all ears sweet cheeks.
> 
> To Forum: I will personally message Alex.


Dr.Mark Gordon is a quack, he only has a good point about TBI and suicide. His claim to fame is through Joe Rogan podcast which is all I need to say about that.

First of all, DHEA doesn't mean anything, I would test for DHEA-s (sulphate). Then I would test for cortisol to see if it's too high or too low, as well as aliver function test. Then I would test for 3b-HSD and 17b-HSD enzyme to ensure proper androstendione production. Pretty much all the stuff that a real endocrinologist would use and not a heavy metal toxicity bullshit peddler that you will leave you $1750 poorer, idiot.


----------



## luctor et emergo

Another article on Clomid which includes results from previous studies:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4734653/


----------



## luctor et emergo

So thanks guys for all your useful comments. Hopefully this thread will not become a place to disrespect each other as
I'm positive everyone wants the best for his fellow sufferers.

We decided to wait some weeks with trying a SERM, mainly because I'm only on prozac and lamotrigine for a brief time (<6 weeks). So while my testosterone is too low, maybe the anxiety will lessen.

Clomid is not available in the pharmacy anymore but only in the hospital.


----------



## Visual

luctor et emergo said:


> So thanks guys for all your useful comments. Hopefully this thread will not become a place to disrespect each other as
> I'm positive everyone wants the best for his fellow sufferers.
> 
> We decided to wait some weeks with trying a SERM, mainly because I'm only on prozac and lamotrigine for a brief time (<6 weeks). So while my testosterone is too low, maybe the anxiety will lessen.
> 
> Clomid is not available in the pharmacy anymore but only in the hospital.


Curious about Clomid only in the hospital. With a new, expensive brand-name product in the works, expect a crack-down on off-label use of Clomid. Also, the general crackdown over athletes/bodybuilders using any steriods.

Nice study ... note "Three patients reported an increased tendency toward irritability or anger" - the 'joy' of testosterone, lol

Also, "very low dose of 25 mg CC every other day" which was half the 'ideal' dose of the other studies with men who where typically in their 60s. Again study was short (3 months)

As a side point (and not wishing to divert the thread too much), low T and sperm count is more common in men now. While hotly debated, estrogenic environmental pollutants (primarily plastics and pestisides) are the biggest probable factors. These are some current observations:


On average, men today have 1/2 the sperm count of men in 1900
Women have larger breast and much more cancer than just a few decades ago
Lastly, not to be overlooked, is that fat is also estrogenic. So extra weight and obesity are involved too

Remember that part of the feedback that the hypothalamus uses for regulating hormones that control production of LH, FSH, and T is estrogen. High E means slowdown production of LH, FSH, and T.

Well, perhaps enough diversion ... the topic is Anxiety/depression/dp and testosterone. There is a balance of hormones that the body is designed to be at. So low T is out of balance, thus physical and emotional health will not be at their ideal either. How this affects DP remains to be seen


----------



## Freddy_Fred

luctor et emergo said:


> So thanks guys for all your useful comments. Hopefully this thread will not become a place to disrespect each other as
> I'm positive everyone wants the best for his fellow sufferers.


I apologize to members like yourself who had to witness that guttural exchange between myself and Alex. In my defense, that Alex dude took the gloves off first and came out swinging, calling me names. I'll be the bigger person and stop even though I could decimate the guy with a novel of hilarious insults. But I won't because we're already in a shitty place and going back and forth like that will cut the flow of useful discussion and discourse that can help others.


----------



## Freddy_Fred

Alex617 said:


> You look like a photo the news would use to warn people of lurking pedophiles.


Really? That's the best you could do. What a slam. Boy, you really got my number(tee hee). I hope that didn't take long to conjure up. If that's what you're working with, I'm disappointed and feel bad for you.

So yeah, I didn't write the "S" with DHEA. My DHEA-S is abnormally high and my Testosterone is low. Morning Cortisol was slightly elevated as well. I'm quite happy with Dr. Gordon's work. And no, the bill didn't send to to skid row; I've spent more on other useless things. Since I didn't get referred to the endocrinologist(and believe me, I tried and tried) and being that I sustained a severe head injury when I was 16(hit my a car, landed on my head, loss consciousness), Dr. Gordon seemed like the perfect endocrinologist to investigate my endocrine system. With a 25 hormone panel(thyroid included), key vitamins and minerals, and a blood and lipid panel, I'd say I got my money's worth.

I know you think he's a quack and I won't try to change your mind about that. You've found your way, I've found mine. But please, respect the forum and keep the arrogant shit talking out of the thread. If you object to anything else in the future and decide to insult me or anyone else again, be a man and send a personal message.

I'm done. LATES!


----------



## Alex617

^hmm I wonder if the anger/irritability is at all related to the estrogenic side effects of clomid. It's not really a secret anymore that 'roid rage' is usually what people suffer from when they get an estrogen rebound, usually during their PCT. High levels of testosterone are actually associated with clamness and well-being, although anectodally I heard supraphysiological levels brought on by powerful steroids can increase anxiety. Balance is key here.

Most steroid users I've spoken to have said toremifene provides the best results emotionally, and nolvadex comes second. Only including those that don't just stick to clomid.

Will TRT help with DP? Hard to say, DP is IMO a result of anxiety disorder, too much stress and depression for the brain to handle. I think testosterone helps with the needed vitality and confidence needed to fight these issues. Noah from Bignoknow seems to have cured his DP/Dr with trt, given he hasn't made videos about it in over a year. Depression also improved from suicidal state to being able to go hard at the gym. He still suffers from depression and obsessive thinking though, but he never did SERM, only high dose testosterone cypionate (200mg a week IIRC)


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## simonlebon

Got my results back. As usual, test is just a little under normal range, so seriously doubt the endo will recommend TRT at a 310. And my free is within range. So the 180 I pulled about a month ago was at 2pm. She's not going to probably care much about that because I pulled it in the afternoon, although I still don't think it should go down that much from morning to afternoon.

Prolactin is a little high, but I did find this article, which would make sense with someone with anxiety/dp.

Burnout is associated with elevated prolactin levels in men but not in women

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261764807_Burnout_is_associated_with_elevated_prolactin_levels_in_men_but_not_in_women

Value Reference Range
Testosterone, Serum 310 348-1197 ng/dL 
Free Testosterone(Direct) 7.6 6.8-21.5 pg/mL

Prolactin 19.1 4.0-15.2 ng/mL

LH 2.3 1.7-8.6 mIU/mL
FSH 2.7 1.5-12.4 mIU/mL


----------



## Visual

Morning is best time for checking hormones. Your out of range values are considered mild and most likely from Seroquel and Lexapro

Thanks for the wonderful article. Knew that stress raises prolactin but had not seen actual values ... so this was good to read. While "Men who reported burnout exhibited significantly higher (34%) serum prolactin levels", "All men except one (who reported burnout) had prolactin levels within the normal range" ... so your out of range is still an small anomaly ... but will happen with those meds.

Also enjoyed "The regulation of prolactin is part of a dopaminergic system and the elevated prolactin levels seen in the men who reported burnout may also reflect reduced dopaminergic activity in the brain, which in turn is implicated in fatigue and listlessness, which are considered among the main symptoms of burnout". The role of dopamine with our symptoms (particularly visual) has been a major focus of mine ... and of massive help for my particular circumstances. Used to post a lot about dopamine.


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## luctor et emergo

bignoknow and dr. Erica Zelfland explain Clomid (in TRT).


----------



## axl617

Freddy_Fred said:


> Really? That's the best you could do. What a slam. Boy, you really got my number(tee hee). I hope that didn't take long to conjure up. If that's what you're working with, I'm disappointed and feel bad for you.
> 
> So yeah, I didn't write the "S" with DHEA. My DHEA-S is abnormally high and my Testosterone is low. Morning Cortisol was slightly elevated as well. I'm quite happy with Dr. Gordon's work. And no, the bill didn't send to to skid row; I've spent more on other useless things. Since I didn't get referred to the endocrinologist(and believe me, I tried and tried) and being that I sustained a severe head injury when I was 16(hit my a car, landed on my head, loss consciousness), Dr. Gordon seemed like the perfect endocrinologist to investigate my endocrine system. With a 25 hormone panel(thyroid included), key vitamins and minerals, and a blood and lipid panel, I'd say I got my money's worth.
> 
> I know you think he's a quack and I won't try to change your mind about that. You've found your way, I've found mine. But please, respect the forum and keep the arrogant shit talking out of the thread. If you object to anything else in the future and decide to insult me or anyone else again, be a man and send a personal message.
> 
> I'm done. LATES!


I won't insult you, I just have a strong aversion to anything that skims around the realm of science, as someone who is studying medical science and have personally seen what a rabbit hole some people fall in to when they pursue alternative medicine. (Or as someone wiser than me said, there's no alternative medicine, only medicine that works).

Out of curiosity, how did you go about treating heavy metal toxicity? What I have read seems quite extreme, expensive and in many cases dangerous.


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## Alex617

Freddy_Fred said:


> Really? That's the best you could do. What a slam...


Accidentally responded with my old unused account, response should show up soon.

Oh and for the record I attribute my low testosterone symptoms to brain trauma as well. I had great health and test levels, took up muay Thai for 3.5 years and took a ton of blows to the head. Eventually found out my levels were bottom range.


----------



## Alex617

simonlebon said:


> Got my results back. As usual, test is just a little under normal range, so seriously doubt the endo will recommend TRT at a 310. And my free is within range. So the 180 I pulled about a month ago was at 2pm. She's not going to probably care much about that because I pulled it in the afternoon, although I still don't think it should go down that much from morning to afternoon.
> 
> Prolactin is a little high, but I did find this article, which would make sense with someone with anxiety/dp.
> 
> Burnout is associated with elevated prolactin levels in men but not in women
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261764807_Burnout_is_associated_with_elevated_prolactin_levels_in_men_but_not_in_women
> 
> Value Reference Range
> Testosterone, Serum 310 348-1197 ng/dL
> Free Testosterone(Direct) 7.6 6.8-21.5 pg/mL
> 
> Prolactin 19.1 4.0-15.2 ng/mL
> 
> LH 2.3 1.7-8.6 mIU/mL
> FSH 2.7 1.5-12.4 mIU/mL


Your levels are low, any doctor/specialist without testosterone phobia would be concerned here. Your LH/FSH levels are low. You could benefit from SERM mono therapy, this will raise your LH/FSH levels through negative feedback and force your testes to make more testosterone. Testosterone levels peak in the morning but yours is still low, I recall levels drop by around 30% by the end of the day, so your 2pm levels should still be decent.

In my personal experience, I had massive burnout from the constant anxiety I had from dp/Dr, but my prolactin levels were always within range, as was everything else other than low LH/FSH and testosterone. I wonder if HPTA contributes to dp/Dr.


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## Freddy_Fred

axl617 said:


> I won't insult you, I just have a strong aversion to anything that skims around the realm of science, as someone who is studying medical science and have personally seen what a rabbit hole some people fall in to when they pursue alternative medicine. (Or as someone wiser than me said, there's no alternative medicine, only medicine that works).
> 
> Out of curiosity, how did you go about treating heavy metal toxicity? What I have read seems quite extreme, expensive and in many cases dangerous.


I totally understand where you're coming from. I can assure you that I'm always on guard with anyone or any doctor who may come across as misleading and trying to sell me on some hokus pokus diagnosis and the snake oil that comes along with it. Since I'm not as knowledgeable or as well versed in medical science as you, I wouldn't know how cross examine Dr. Gordon for example, who sounds medically and scientifically grounded to a regular Joe like myself.

As you shared on here before, everything about his testing protocol and report was sounding normal and on the level until the whole metal toxicity business, which I can see how questionable that sounds to someone of your caliber. I must admit, I didn't know what to make of it at first, but his tone was so serious when he questioned me if I had been exposed to Mercury or Lead.

According to him (not saying he's absolutely right), a possible reason why someone has abnormally high DHEA-S and low Testosterone, is if an enzyme is being disrupted/blocked from the DHEA-S from converting into Testosterone. He says Mercury is a possible culprit for this blockage. I know man, it sounds like...well, quackery. Quackery or not, and with the exception of Vision, no one can explain the quandary of high DHEA-S and low testosterone. I'm very curious on what your thoughts on it are.

In response to your question about detoxing, I'm still in the process of removing the source of my Mercury burden, which in my case, my amalgam fillings are the root of the problem. You are correct, metal detoxing can be dangerous especially if you detox while you still have amalgam fillings for example, which is why I must remove them safely before starting my detox regimen. For this, I'm on the Christopher Shade bandwagon. Without going into too much detail, he has developed the most advanced testing and detoxing protocols for heavy metal toxicity. I have been tested using his company and have yet to use his liposomal delivery system to detox. It seems to be the most advanced and less risky thing on the market. Now before your bullshit meter goes off, I'm really impressed by Christopher Shade's work and out of all the quacks out there, he seems like the one who is least full of shit. To your possible concern and critique, I could be wrong. There is a wealth of Christopher Shade's lectures, interviews, and webinars on youtube and on the web. I'd be very interested in your opinion. I'll link two vids that have stood out for me.


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## simonlebon

Got the call from the endo offfice this morning. They said the total was slightly low, but the free was within range. They seem most concerned about the prolactin. They said that could be cause by the seroquel, but they want to rule out a pituitary abnormality/tumor, so the are ordering a pituitary MRI. That's my update!


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## simonlebon

Update:

Got my pituitary MRI last friday, got the results today. I have what's called a "partial empty sella". This is where cerebrospinal fluid has gotten into the sella turcica, which is where your pituitary resides, and basically causes your pituitary gland to shrink or flatten.

Endo wants to have my cortisol, thyroid and sodium levels tested now and go from there. But my guess is that all of that will come back normal. And there is really no treatment for this except hormone replacement if needed. Kinda weird though. Still need to read more up on it and see what exactly causes that to happen.


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## luctor et emergo

Wow... is there any way this "partial empty sella" has a relationship with dp, dr?

Hope you will get proper treatment.


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## simonlebon

Pretty sure there is no direct correlation here. The only indirect correlation would be that the condition "flattened" or inhibited my pituitary in some way , which could decrease it's ability to function, which could affect hormone levels. But that's not even a certainty with the condition. My levels are low, but who knows. Will be interesting what my endo says after I get this final round of tests. My guess is it will just be something like "we'll watch your testosterone and if it gets much lower we can look at hormone replacement".


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## simonlebon

So here's where I'm at. The endocrinologist has suggested I try to take a medication to lower my prolactin, which in turn could raise my testosterone. Has anyone ever taken bromocriptine or cabergoline? She is suggesting bromocriptine. She told me she wants my psychiatrist to sign off on it first though.

Thanks


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## simonlebon

Update:

Read around on some natural way to lower prolactin. I'm going to try taking ashwagandha which had been on my radar for a long time but never got around to trying it. Also going to try upping some vitamin b6 intake (sunflower seeds). Then I'll restest in another month or 6 weeks. I'll keep this thread updated.

I would suggest anyone on here who hasn't done it already to definitely get your testosterone AND PROLACTIN levels tested. Also, possibly a pituitary MRI. I have seen a couple comments on youtube videos about partial empty sella and those same people having DP. So in my case this may be, pituitary issue --> messed up hormones --> dp.


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## Chicane

My testosterone was high when tested last year so I'm not convinced there's any relationship to it and DP. But the same test showed my vitamin D levels were low. There are quite a few studies that link that to anxiety, depression and cognitive decline, so my first thought was to get as much of that in as I could. I supplemented with a high dose of it for several months and got out in the sun as often as possible, but no improvement. So who knows? It all seems like we're just grasping at straws sometimes.


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## Visual

[ Correction - Visual was wrong ]

Was understanding that higher T leads to mood swings and aggression. However here are a couple links that indicate otherwise:


"do *not* increase angry behavior" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8855834
"does *not* increase self-reported ratings of aggressive feelings" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1464655



simonlebon said:


> So here's where I'm at. The endocrinologist has suggested I try to take a medication to lower my prolactin, which in turn could raise my testosterone. Has anyone ever taken bromocriptine or cabergoline? She is suggesting bromocriptine. She told me she wants my psychiatrist to sign off on it first though.
> 
> Thanks


I've used cabergoline for a couple years now. It is very helpful. It is worth a try.



simonlebon said:


> I am currently on Lexapro 30mg/Seroquel 100mg.


Lexapro and Seroquel usually raise prolactin. Ask your endo about this possibility.


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## simonlebon

Visual said:


> I've used cabergoline for a couple years now. It is very helpful. It is worth a try.
> 
> Lexapro and Seroquel usually raise prolactin. Ask your endo about this possibility.


Thanks for the info. Endo is recommending Bromocriptine, but have read around and sounds like cabergoline might be better, less side effects.

Yes , Endo also said Seroquel could be cause of higher prolactin. Endo also wants my psychiatrist to sign off before starting bromocriptine or cabergoline. But unfortunately no matter the cause, I need to address it somehow. I mean, the seroquel helps me enough to where I wouldn't consider going off of it to *maybe* see if it fixes it. At least not anytime in the near future.

So would you say the cabergoline did anything for your dp?


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## simonlebon

Update. Talked to my pdoc this morning and she basically said that the seroquel I'm on (same class as abilify, latuda etc.) lowers dopamine levels which is what gives the calming affect. So , turns out dopamine SUPPRESSES PROLACTIN. That's probably why my endo wanted me to talk to my pdoc. Because if I take this bromocriptine or caberlogine, it's basically just going to be fighting with the seroquel to raise my dopamine. That doesn't make much sense to me to start taking another drug to fight the effects of the a drug I'm on. So.. i think for now I am just going to look at doing a very slow taper, of my seroquel over many months and my pdoc said it's very possible that will let a little more dopamine through and lower prolactin, hopefully raising test. Not sure , but what I'm looking at. My test was also kind of low before when I was only on 25 mg of seroquel, but I have no idea what the prolactin was because I had never been tested for it. So we'll see. Then eventually if my test continues to drop will most likely go on testosterone therapy some day. Would be nice to do it naturally, but that isn't entirely my choice.

Would be very very very grateful if anyone is on here who has had any (low)testosterone/(high)prolactin issues before and has been an antipsychotic to share your experience.

Thanks


----------



## Visual

Cabergoline helps my:


anxiety
social perception
coordination
physical strength
visual sharpness
visual contrast
fatigue (some)
clear thinking

It will take a while for you to ween off your meds. Its may seem odd that since often lowering dopamine lowers anxiety but consider ADD as an example - increasing dopamine is calming.

Its common for doctors to skip testing prolactin. Old habits die hard ...


----------



## simonlebon

Visual said:


> Cabergoline helps my:
> 
> 
> anxiety
> social perception
> coordination
> physical strength
> visual sharpness
> visual contrast
> fatigue (some)
> clear thinking
> 
> It will take a while for you to ween off your meds. Its may seem odd that since often lowering dopamine lowers anxiety but consider ADD as an example - increasing dopamine is calming.
> 
> Its common for doctors to skip testing prolactin. Old habits die hard ...


OH yes I know all too well. I've been on seroquel for many years. But I got all the way down to 25mg and was fine. Then I decided to taper off of that and ended up with DP. So my goal honestly is to just get to a tiny dose again (like 25) and then probably just stay there indefinitely vs. risk going through dp hell again. Granted I know so much more now than when I went off of it the first time, but I still have no desire to feel any shittier than necessary.


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## luctor et emergo

Visual said:


> Cabergoline helps my:
> 
> 
> anxiety
> social perception
> coordination
> physical strength
> visual sharpness
> visual contrast
> fatigue (some)
> clear thinking
> 
> It will take a while for you to ween off your meds. Its may seem odd that since often lowering dopamine lowers anxiety but consider ADD as an example - increasing dopamine is calming.
> 
> Its common for doctors to skip testing prolactin. Old habits die hard ...


In what dosage is this helping for you? Is it intended for daily use, as it's indication is complety different.

It is frequently used as a first-line agent in the management of prolactinomas.

Cabergoline will be easier prescribed then Clomid or Nolvadex.


----------



## Visual

luctor et emergo said:


> In what dosage is this helping for you? Is it intended for daily use, as it's indication is complety different.
> 
> It is frequently used as a first-line agent in the management of prolactinomas.
> 
> Cabergoline will be easier prescribed then Clomid or Nolvadex.


With the thiamine cocarboxylase, I've reduced my dose to 1/2 pill a day (0.25mg)

Cabergoline is used to shrink pituitary tumors that produce prolactin. It is also used for Parkinson's disease. However the dose for PD is much higher, typically ~3mg / day. In 10 years at that level it will enlarge heart valves (50% chance) with some developing serious murmers (10%). The level used to treat prolactinomas is typically 2-3mg / week ... a dose thought to be safe long term.

So as you can see, unless cabergoline helps a lot, it isn't an ideal med. Since you don't respond to levodopa, it would seem unlikely that you would respond to cabergoline.


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## simonlebon

Has anyone ever heard of the DUTCH test? Apparently they claim to give a much more comprehensive hormone test. Looks interesting.

https://dutchtest.com/video/introduction/


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## luctor et emergo

Anyone tried / knows something about (the most) effective "natural" testosterone boosters like:

http://www.bulkpowders.co.uk/sports-nutrition/male-support.html

The methods named in this interesting topic seem to be too difficult (risky) to try at least for this year.

Thanks for your replies!


----------



## Tim Couch 1999

Freddy_Fred said:


> Low testosterone was discovered last year in April(176 Total, 38 free); about four months into DP/DR. Luck was on my side in that I didn't go into TRT as prescribed blindly. Although desperate for any kinda treatment that would alleviate my torturous symptoms, I quickly learned that TRT isn't so black and white. Low levels require a comprehensive hormone assessment to get a full picture of the orchestra of hormones. For example, downstream(pre courser) hormones might not be converting into testosterone, pituitary tumors or lesions could be at play, or there could be an overall dysfunction of the HPA axis due to head trauma. Testing just total and free is only a portion of a complex picture. Without the a comprehensive test(which I had done) you will not receive the correct diagnosis and treatment. I don't intend to sound like a salesman but I found an endocrinologist who test for all of the mentioned above. Aside from low testosterone being addressed, It was when doing this test that to my surprise, a specific hormone imbalance involving DHEA and testosterone was discovered which according to him, is caused by mercury/heavy metal toxicity. Point is, without his test I would have NEVER been tested for this and NEVER had discovered metal toxicity as an underlying cause for my hormone deficiencies/imbalances. Not saying this will be the case for you but he is truly a top player in his field. I'll provide videos where he discusses these things in detail. The test will cost you 1750 and he works with patients out of state. I believe you can do all this over mail and sype.
> 
> I haven't began his hormone protocol because I have to detox first. If you have the energy and time I STRONGLY suggest you get in contact with him.Hope I was of some help


You'll probably never see this, but I'd love to get an update. I want to try his protocol in the future.


----------



## Tim Couch 1999

Freddy_Fred said:


> Low testosterone was discovered last year in April(176 Total, 38 free); about four months into DP/DR. Luck was on my side in that I didn't go into TRT as prescribed blindly. Although desperate for any kinda treatment that would alleviate my torturous symptoms, I quickly learned that TRT isn't so black and white. Low levels require a comprehensive hormone assessment to get a full picture of the orchestra of hormones. For example, downstream(pre courser) hormones might not be converting into testosterone, pituitary tumors or lesions could be at play, or there could be an overall dysfunction of the HPA axis due to head trauma. Testing just total and free is only a portion of a complex picture. Without the a comprehensive test(which I had done) you will not receive the correct diagnosis and treatment. I don't intend to sound like a salesman but I found an endocrinologist who test for all of the mentioned above. Aside from low testosterone being addressed, It was when doing this test that to my surprise, a specific hormone imbalance involving DHEA and testosterone was discovered which according to him, is caused by mercury/heavy metal toxicity. Point is, without his test I would have NEVER been tested for this and NEVER had discovered metal toxicity as an underlying cause for my hormone deficiencies/imbalances. Not saying this will be the case for you but he is truly a top player in his field. I'll provide videos where he discusses these things in detail. The test will cost you 1750 and he works with patients out of state. I believe you can do all this over mail and sype.
> 
> I haven't began his hormone protocol because I have to detox first. If you have the energy and time I STRONGLY suggest you get in contact with him.Hope I was of some help


Also, what was his response when you told him about DP/DR? Was he familiar with it? Had he treated people with it before?


----------



## Tim Couch 1999

Well for anyone curious, I actually did Dr. Gordon's protocol. Unfortunately, I did not see any major results. But I don't necessarily fault Dr. Gordon, and I wouldn't label him a conman in any way. I did the protocol for 3 months, but it wasn't until after that I realized there was a problem with my eating regimen. I was eating chicken and broccoli for lunch everyday, and it turns out that chicken is a trigger for inflammation. So the entire time I was doing Dr. Gordon's program, I was eating an inflammatory food. Safe to say I was TICKED OFF. I might try his program again in the future, but I'm not in any hurry too, as it costs $5k.
One positive of his protocol was that it got rid of the tightness in my chest. Ever since I started having anxiety issues (2010), there's always been a tightness in my chest. That was completely gone during Dr. Gordon's protocol. So that is one positive that I want to point out.


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## Trith

Tim Couch 1999 said:


> Well for anyone curious, I actually did Dr. Gordon's protocol. Unfortunately, I did not see any major results. But I don't necessarily fault Dr. Gordon, and I wouldn't label him a conman in any way. I did the protocol for 3 months, but it wasn't until after that I realized there was a problem with my eating regimen. I was eating chicken and broccoli for lunch everyday, and it turns out that chicken is a trigger for inflammation. So the entire time I was doing Dr. Gordon's program, I was eating an inflammatory food. Safe to say I was TICKED OFF. I might try his program again in the future, but I'm not in any hurry too, as it costs $5k.
> One positive of his protocol was that it got rid of the tightness in my chest. Ever since I started having anxiety issues (2010), there's always been a tightness in my chest. That was completely gone during Dr. Gordon's protocol. So that is one positive that I want to point out.


Wait what ?! What did you pay $5k for exactly? I googled Gordon protocol and I found this page: http://www.tbimedlegal.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/programpricing2019.03.pdf 
Is this what you did? You can get the same assessment from Alison Gordon and Mark Gordon, but the price of the first one is $2,500 and the second is $3,500. For the same thing but with a different person. But if it's science and it is rigorous then anybody with the right knowledge should be able to do it. Here you are paying for someone's fame.
Also I googled Alison Gordon, and she uses naturopathy. Naturopathy is a pseudo science ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturopathy ), it's not based on the scientific method. Here in France you can be a naturopath after a three months training only. A friend of mine went to a naturopath, she told her to do the "spit test" to test if she had candidosis (that test is quackery and it's efficiency has never been demonstrated scientifically, in fact it was created by a company that sold remedies for candidosis). Of course she told her she had candidosis, and she told her to take colloidal silver (silver nanoparticle). The ground was that silver nanoparticles are good against bacteria, but it's efficiency exists only when it's applied on the skin, no effect was ever demonstrated when ingested and in fact it was been demonstrated to cause inflamation reaction on mice, so here it's actually forbiden to sell for the purpose of being ingested. It's also ecotoxic and does not degrade in nature. These people are 100% into pseudo-science. On her website she also treats lyme disease (which is a famous nest for quackery), and she also does botox injections for people. Why not, if it helps make ends meet.
I'm sorry but I think you have been scammed....


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## Tim Couch 1999

Trith said:


> Wait what ?! What did you pay $5k for exactly? I googled Gordon protocol and I found this page: http://www.tbimedlegal.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/programpricing2019.03.pdf
> Is this what you did? You can get the same assessment from Alison Gordon and Mark Gordon, but the price of the first one is $2,500 and the second is $3,500. For the same thing but with a different person. But if it's science and it is rigorous then anybody with the right knowledge should be able to do it. Here you are paying for someone's fame.
> Also I googled Alison Gordon, and she uses naturopathy. Naturopathy is a pseudo science ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturopathy ), it's not based on the scientific method. Here in France you can be a naturopath after a three months training only. A friend of mine went to a naturopath, she told her to do the "spit test" to test if she had candidosis (that test is quackery and it's efficiency has never been demonstrated scientifically, in fact it was created by a company that sold remedies for candidosis). Of course she told her she had candidosis, and she told her to take colloidal silver (silver nanoparticle). The ground was that silver nanoparticles are good against bacteria, but it's efficiency exists only when it's applied on the skin, no effect was ever demonstrated when ingested and in fact it was been demonstrated to cause inflamation reaction on mice, so here it's actually forbiden to sell for the purpose of being ingested. It's also ecotoxic and does not degrade in nature. These people are 100% into pseudo-science. On her website she also treats lyme disease (which is a famous nest for quackery), and she also does botox injections for people. Why not, if it helps make ends meet.
> I'm sorry but I think you have been scammed....


I did not pay $5K, I meant it costs $5K for the first year, and then gets cheaper from there. I only did it for 3 months so I wasn't in the hole very much. From my experience, you can negotiate the price of the assessment, I got it lowered $800. 
I don't know much about his daughters program, I'm only speaking to Mark Gordon's work. His program has produced incredible results for people, this is a fact. I can't get into the reason why I'm so confident in his work, as it would come off as a political statement, but I'm convinced nonetheless. There's a documentary called "Quiet Explosions", I recommend checking it out. 
If there is any potential scam here, it's Dr. Gordon saying that you don't have to have a TBI to do his program. He offers it to people that have not experienced any head trauma (to their knowledge). He goes on to say that 85% of TBI's have no symptoms.
TBI or no TBI I think it couldn't hurt to do this as a last resort. His program is all about getting your brain to function the way it's supposed to. Like a car, your brain has several (an understatement) different things that need to be working correctly to produce a fully optimal brain. 
What they do is they draw your blood to check your hormones, vitamins, and minerals, and then from there they put you on a program that is designed specifically for you. Everyone's is going to be different.


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## Trith

Tim Couch 1999 said:


> I did not pay $5K, I meant it costs $5K for the first year, and then gets cheaper from there. I only did it for 3 months so I wasn't in the hole very much. From my experience, you can negotiate the price of the assessment, I got it lowered $800.
> I don't know much about his daughters program, I'm only speaking to Mark Gordon's work. His program has produced incredible results for people, this is a fact. I can't get into the reason why I'm so confident in his work, as it would come off as a political statement, but I'm convinced nonetheless. There's a documentary called "Quiet Explosions", I recommend checking it out.
> If there is any potential scam here, it's Dr. Gordon saying that you don't have to have a TBI to do his program. He offers it to people that have not experienced any head trauma (to their knowledge). He goes on to say that 85% of TBI's have no symptoms.
> TBI or no TBI I think it couldn't hurt to do this as a last resort. His program is all about getting your brain to function the way it's supposed to. Like a car, your brain has several (an understatement) different things that need to be working correctly to produce a fully optimal brain.
> What they do is they draw your blood to check your hormones, vitamins, and minerals, and then from there they put you on a program that is designed specifically for you. Everyone's is going to be different.


Oh god, really there are all the ingredients... they say they make it just for you, just like homeopaths say. So you can't compare treatments, you can't test it because it depends on each individual and he treats them not according to something that could easily be written in a book, but according to his intuition, and that's why his skills are so important and that people are ready to pay much more to be treated by the guy himself and it justifies long assessments (As an option he might even say that regular medicine does not treat these things well because they don't take into account each persons difference and they are too scholar). And I don't think they mean 85% brain injuries have no symptoms, because if they really had no symptom they wouldn't be a problem. Let me guess, they probably mean 85% of brain injuries don't exhibit the classic symptoms that are usually ascribed to brain injuries, but that they do have general symptoms that usually get misdiagnosed, like "general fatigue", "feeling depressed", "being anxious", "lack of appetite", "too much appetite", "disturbed sleep", all sorts of things that everybody experiences in their life so that everybody can identify and think they have brain injury too. Does he say that? Because if he does it's the same strategy as for Lyme's disease. Same strategy as that company that created that "spit test" where everyone gets tested positive. Then he also probably says that the number of people having brain injuries in the world is much higher than what we think, and that this and that problem that is wide spread in society is probably caused by brain injuries too, and he has the answer and he will probably revolutionize the world, and so on. Does he say things like that?
But even if he is a fraud I won't judge you for trusting him. I have been in a cult for 6 years so I am in no position to do that.


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## Tim Couch 1999

Trith said:


> Oh god, really there are all the ingredients... they say they make it just for you, just like homeopaths say. So you can't compare treatments, you can't test it because it depends on each individual and he treats them not according to something that could easily be written in a book, but according to his intuition, and that's why his skills are so important and that people are ready to pay much more to be treated by the guy himself and it justifies long assessments (As an option he might even say that regular medicine does not treat these things well because they don't take into account each persons difference and they are too scholar). And I don't think they mean 85% brain injuries have no symptoms, because if they really had no symptom they wouldn't be a problem. Let me guess, they probably mean 85% of brain injuries don't exhibit the classic symptoms that are usually ascribed to brain injuries, but that they do have general symptoms that usually get misdiagnosed, like "general fatigue", "feeling depressed", "being anxious", "lack of appetite", "too much appetite", "disturbed sleep", all sorts of things that everybody experiences in their life so that everybody can identify and think they have brain injury too. Does he say that? Because if he does it's the same strategy as for Lyme's disease. Same strategy as that company that created that "spit test" where everyone gets tested positive. Then he also probably says that the number of people having brain injuries in the world is much higher than what we think, and that this and that problem that is wide spread in society is probably caused by brain injuries too, and he has the answer and he will probably revolutionize the world, and so on. Does he say things like that?
> But even if he is a fraud I won't judge you for trusting him. I have been in a cult for 6 years so I am in no position to do that.


I don't understand your point here. Of course everyone's protocol is going to be different. If someone's pregnenolone level is 95, and someone else's is 16, of course they're going to be taking different amounts of it, and for different periods of time. The same goes for every other hormone, vitamin or mineral. Not sure what the issue is here. Putting everyone on the same protocol would make no sense.
As for the 85% statement, I'm not exactly sure what he meant. I assumed he meant 85% of people don't report long term, distressing symptoms.
If he's a fraud, I will have no problem apologizing to everyone. I just don't see any indication of that at the moment. His practice isn't even that widely known.


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## Chip1021

I’ve had my testosterone checked, and came back within normal range.

But I would like to use the opportunity to comment on your post by saying that, if you have reason to think your DP symptoms might be organic, instead of placing so much weight on the neurologist to see if there is something wrong with the brain, the first specialist you should probably see would be the endocrinologist.

Because we tend to locate the self in the brain, we also tend to look to the brain to explain strange or distressing experiences. But I think this is a major error. When it comes to issues of mood or emotional dysregulation, the first place you should look for a possible organic source is in your hormones.

This isn’t to say the brain should be neglected, of course.


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## JCGame

I'm very interested.

Casino


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## Tim Couch 1999

So I want to clarify a few things about my experience with Dr. Gordon's protocol. I recently went back and checked my notes, and it turns out I only did the real protocol for about a month and a half, and there were five instances where I didn't take the medication/supplements at night. That's pretty much another week right there. You're supposed to give the program at least three months, and then get your blood drawn again to see how much you've improved. Depending on the case, it can take up to 6 months for people to start noticing positive changes from hormones replacement therapy. Because of this, I don't think I'm in a position where I can say Mark Gordon's protocol did or didn't work for me.


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## SullivanPennington

Hey, Chip1021. I agree with you because it often turns out that the initial problem is not about the brain but your hormones. So, I’d also recommend you guys begin by visiting an endocrinologist. It’ll be more reasonable. Tbh, I’ve recently managed to make my testosterone level great again, you know. I used to struggle with the low level of it. It all began a few years ago. Tbh, I still have no idea about the cause of it, but I’m happy that I’ve managed to help myself. Btw, Testodren actually helped me a lot. I saw a Testodren review and decided to buy it immediately. By then, I had already tried everything to cure it, but only Testodren helped me eventually. That’s it. Btw, exercising is also crucial. We take it for granted, but exercising has always been the most important part of fighting any disease.


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