# Was Jesus a false messiah?



## Pablo

Seeing as a messiah is supposed to bring peace to the earth I would say that he definitely failed on that front. Surely if he was as wise as people assume he would realise how the majority of people would manipulate his teaching and use it for their own egoic power needs to control people, surely he would realise this. I always used to believe that if Jesus knew how his impact on this earth would have increased war, tension and division he probably would have just kept his head down and live life like a carpenter for the rest of his life with a few low key diciples. But then I read some of the gospels of Nag Hammadi and maybe there is method in the madness of the world as he says in the Gospel of Thomas:

"Men believe I've come to bring peace to this world, but they dont understand that I've come to bring divisions on earth, fire, struggle and strife.

If there are five in a house, three will fight two, two will fight three.
Father versus son, son against father;
they'll stand up better being alone."

and also:
"I've set fire to this world, to keep it blazing until it burns away"

I could never give Christianity any respect until I read this Gospel. Jesus certainly has set fire to this world and created division, stuggle and strife but reading this perhaps he knew what would happen, perhaps he knew his teachings would start wars and ruin countries, perhaps he knew his teachings would ruin peoples lives. But perhaps there is method in all the madness as maybe he started a transformation in humanity which has to go through a process of rising tensions and conflict in order to arrive at a better place, like in certain relationships if somebody from the outside comes in and increases the tension the couple involved may end up having a blazing row but afterwards may have resolved a lot of issues which were lingering and as a result their relationship is better. Another example is the indirect result of the two World Wars was that the wars ushered in the greatest era of economic and social rights growth the world has ever seen, so the greatest destruction in the world also brought about the greatest growth. Does anyone get what I am suggesting? maybe Jesus applied this principle to the world as a whole and purposely created a situation of tension and conflict in order for humanity to come to a state closer to god far more quickly than they would have without his involvement.

Or maybe not. This is just something I have been thinking about with too much time on my hands and an overactive imagination.


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## Guest

> Was Jesus a false messiah?


... Have fun... lol :lol:


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## Pablo

Emulated Puppet}eer said:


> Was Jesus a false messiah?
> 
> 
> 
> ... Have fun... lol :lol:
Click to expand...

I know there is no answer to this question, I was just writing down a few things I have been thinking about, perhaps I shouldn't have bothered.


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## Guest

Pablo said:


> Emulated Puppet}eer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Was Jesus a false messiah?
> 
> 
> 
> ... Have fun... lol :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> perhaps I shouldn't have bothered.
Click to expand...

Time will tell.


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## CECIL

Yes Pablo I agree with you whole-heartedly.

In certain circles the consciousness that Jesus represented is called the Christ Consciousness. It is pretty much a whole way of being - a new energy in the world.

Jesus was 2000 years ahead of his time. At that time the world was not ready to launch itself into this new consciousness. However, like you said, his life and other events around that time set the ball rolling.

Until we come to present day times. Now the world is poised and ready to change itself fundamentally. The collective consciousness of the world is currently tranforming itself and will hopefully soon emerge as what they call the Christ Consciousness.

"I've set fire to this world, to keep it blazing until it burns away" - In my opinion this means burning away the old energy, the old ways of being. In a way its like slashing and burning a field - destroy all that remains of the old systems so that new systems can take their place. Or if you prefer, burning away old energy patterns so that new ones can be established.


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## Pablo

Yes I think it is funny how people think that going to Christ would bring them peace because Christ represents a completely different consciousness than what most people operate from, so the first thing you are likely to feel when in his presence is that you are imperfect or inferior because all of your ego imperfections will be perfectly clear to see when you compare yourself to him, so the result is that your ego will be deeply disturbed by what Christ represents and you will be threatened by him.

I suppose only time will tell if what you say is true Cecil about now being the time for people to evolve into this new consciousness. Certain Gnostics certainly agree with what you are saying and they say that it is no coincidence that the rediscovery of Jesus' higher teachings were found and made public recently in the form of the Nag Hammadi texts and Judus' gospel only made public last year. Maybe there are other gospels which are going to be found in the coming years which will make things even clearer and really pave the way for mass evolution.

My personal opinion is that as a planet we have a great many more years of struggle and mass egotism before any new age comes in, at the moment we are far too stuck in our heads and detached from our hearts. I think that science and economics will have to have evolved to such a state where everybody in the world wont have to worry about the basic needs of security, food and shelter before any sort of mass enlightenment will occur, but that doesnt mean as individuals that we cannot reach these states of consciousness early so to speak, but we will have to do it without support and expect to be condemned by society and even persecuted for our efforts.


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## CECIL

Yes I share your concerns, though I guess I hold very high hopes for humanity.

Things are changing now. Also, the rate at which they are changing is always increasing. Soon things will be changing so fast we won't know what the hell is going on anymore - doing what we've always done just won't work. Well, that's the way I see it happening anyway.



> when in his presence is that you are imperfect or inferior because all of your ego imperfections will be perfectly clear to see when you compare yourself to him, so the result is that your ego will be deeply disturbed by what Christ represents and you will be threatened by him.


That's a really good way to put it and I'd never really thought of it like that before, but I do agree. It just points out that you need to heal those ego issues before you can really understand the message.


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## medo

[.


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## Space Addict

Jesus said, ?I come not to bring peace, but a sword.? The sword that He came to bring is the sword of truth that cleaves the real from the unreal. That sword is the Christ consciousness


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## CECIL

That's a good way of putting it Space Addict. Sometimes I think Jesus was one of the first Indigo Children, sent to start the ball rolling in regards to hacking away these archaic beliefs and fear we are clinging to.

If nothing else he was well ahead of his time.


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## Pablo

Space Addict said:


> Jesus said, ?I come not to bring peace, but a sword.? The sword that He came to bring is the sword of truth that cleaves the real from the unreal. That sword is the Christ consciousness


Yeah thats a much clearer way of putting it. Im still unsure whether Christ consciousness is different than Buddha consciousness, or different from others like Gurdjieff, Ramana Maharishi, Lao Tzu, as well as many others, I think they are probably all talking about the same thing: pure consciousness. So in a way Jesus may not have been that special really in the sense that others may have made the same realizations he did, also the Buddha and Lao Tsu were around a few decades before Jesus and it is likely that he would have heard of their ideas, well Buddhas at least so im unsure how completley original Jesus was.


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## yoyo

Jesus Christ was the Messiah. The coming of Christ was predicted a long time before he was born in flesh. Prophets of the old testaments prophecied about its coming. God is of course not the cause of war and pain in the world, but men is. If men would become more christlike, then pain would incredibly diminish.


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## Pablo

Yeah but how do men become more Christlike?
History clearly shows us that following the rules put down by the official church and the laws given in the bible do very little to make people more loving or conscious.

It is clear to me that the most Christian and Christlike of all the people on earth are Buddhists, who really live by rules like 'turn the other cheek' .


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## Fant?me

Jesus entered the world during the age of antiquity and the era of Classical progress of the Greeks and Romans. So he wanted the collapse of the Roman Empire to give way to 1000 years of Religious zealotry, disease (black plague), fanatical Christianity (stoning adulterers) and the Feudal system? Some say that if the Greeks/Romans had never collapsed that Columbus would've landed on the moon.

We're centuries behind where we should be due to the Christian imperialism of the Dark Ages and your supposed divine premonition. Religion has done nothing but impede rational thought and this thread is a perfect example of that.


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## CECIL

yoyo said:


> Jesus Christ was the Messiah. The coming of Christ was predicted a long time before he was born in flesh. Prophets of the old testaments prophecied about its coming. God is of course not the cause of war and pain in the world, but men is. If men would become more christlike, then pain would incredibly diminish.


Humanity, war and pain are all a part of God. To become more christ like we must adopt an attitude of love and acceptance, just like God, rather than one of fear, judgement and punishment (unlike God, though religions will certainly tell you otherwise).



> We're centuries behind where we should be due to the Christian imperialism of the Dark Ages and your supposed divine premonition. Religion has done nothing but impede rational thought and this thread is a perfect example of that.


I used to be very anti-religion like this, but now I disagree. I believe that the 2000 year "dark ages" (which I think is an adequate term) was necessary in the evolution of our consciousness as a species.

We needed to know what NOT to do before we could know a better path. The fact is humans were not ready to embrace the christ consciousness 2000 years ago.

And as far as impeding rational thought goes - I believe quite the opposite. At the present moment in time, rational thought is what prevails above all else. To the extent of crushing and trying to extinguish the divine at every turn (Enter DP - I keep saying this but not sure if anyone gets my meaning  ). Even religions, as they are sold to the masses, are focussed on severing the connection of people to the divine ("Put your faith in Jesus or a priest, not yourself").

Humanity is now approaching a cross roads where we are in a position to balance our use of rationality and our experience of the divine/feminine/intuition/spirituality. We are in fact in a crisis situation.

Up until now, societies and empires were small enough that when they fell they would not take out everything with them. But in the current day and age, empires (e.g. America) are so large that if they fall they will take the entire world down with them including all living things on our planet.

We can't fuck it up this time. Personally I hope we can all band together and create a global community. I don't think this is beyond the realm of possibility. Its just that things have to change and change fast. But like I said earlier, things are already changing very, very rapidly


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## Fant?me

CECIL said:


> I used to be very anti-religion like this, but now I disagree. I believe that the 2000 year "dark ages" (which I think is an adequate term) was necessary in the evolution of our consciousness as a species.


well i'd define the dark ages as the years after the Roman empire fell coupled with the reign of Charlemagne and his propagation of Christian fundamentalism not found in your King James bible. Worse than stoning adulterers to death. Even the Spanish inquisition with, more or less, the same bible we have to day, was justified by the Vatican, as the bible had text inciting the murder of heretics.



> The fact is humans were not ready to embrace the christ consciousness 2000 years ago.


I agree to some extent but I believe that much of the developed and educated world does not need Christ anymore and we should develop our own philosophies and invent our own gods. Jesus should not be one size fits all, and its totally evident in the fact that there are so many numerous Christian sects and this extends to the Abrahamic (word?) religions of Islam and Judaism. The guys who flew their planes into the WTT, without their religion, would have simply turned out to be some street thug or emo.

Christ provides a powerful light during the darker years, and among the poor today but they can all too easily be manipulated and following the golden rule or the ten commandments isn't enough unless you believe that man coexisted with dinosaurs and that we should respect god despite all the torment he caused the stars of the bible. Including his own son (unless you're a catholic). He knows all things and is omnipotent but was selfish enough to send his mortal son to death. The whole Jesus scenario is a beautiful allegory but thats all it is. A rich, moving story of a man who symbolically died for our sins. A story. One perspective on the world from text translated and edited heavily over the ages, but written in Greek and Aramaic I assume by people with a complete scientific void.

Why does the sun rise? God.

Who created the world? God. ~ i always found the adam and eve story almost a satire of the religion itself. God knows all past present future. *God knows that they will eat from the tree of knowledge but doesn't want them to, which I find ironic*. "STAY AWAY FROM KNOWLEDGE tree", says god, "Just don't eat the apple! " It doesn't make sense, and i never gave any reason why not to, but JUST DON'T DO IT. Why would he set them up like that? The first two human beings, created in his image were set up by that sneaky bastard punished for all eternity from the very beginning of our supposed creation. He says we have no free will so why did he make us and script our immediate demise? Its absolutely ridiculous that anyone should respect this false, barbarous, and deceitful god. I have a hard time finding a character so incredibly evil. He is psychotic and asociopath. That and he hasn't done anything since Jesus was concocted by some well-intentioned, but also manipulative and ignorant people of antiquity.

Sorry to all you religious folk, you certainly sound quite moderate and that does not bother me as much but my goal is to whittle the bible down to the bare essentials. The Fant?me version of the Bible will open and read "Love your fellow man." Essentially the golden rule. That'll strip away all the vague scripture inciting violence and intolerance, and the hypocrisy that plagues nearly ever page.



> And as far as impeding rational thought goes - I believe quite the opposite. At the present moment in time, rational thought is what prevails above all else. To the extent of crushing and trying to extinguish the divine at every turn


Well, you're absolutely implying that there is a battle between reason/science and religion. Rational thought is winning the war, but if you're battling rationality, then surely thats transitive to saying religion is irrational. I just don't see how that can sit well with most Christians. I don't mind you adapting some of the doctrine of religious faith or believing in a customized god. I don't even mind you going to church so long as its not evangelical. Churches are a place of solace and self-reflection and the beautiful ceremonies and companionship. I could easily say to you though that that would still not make you a Christian. Just as one would firmly say I am an atheist because of my opposition to the church. I am closest related to secular humanism (humanist agnostic before Bush).

I'm caffeinated from an all night essay session so this may never stop. I think this is actually one of the reasons I was banned from here 2 years ago. Back before I escaped America to study in Canada where people don't want to burn me at the stake and call me a witch.

As for rationality, the Christian church has evolved itself over the years because people were starting to realize that the Bible was not telling the truth. The church no longer participates in any more Crusades. The pope recently validated evolution to a certain extent. The scientific and social awareness of the church just lags behind the rest of society by a few hundred years. A thunderstorm is no longer god making angry noises. Christian "Scientists" (as much an oxymoron as creation science) watch their children die because they're only allowed to pray for the sick. Justified rape, murder, polygamy, slavery, etc. Need I say more.

"_When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property._" Exodus 21:20-21 NAB

"_If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her._" Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Find yourself, and find your own personal god. I tell people i'm an atheist because I don't believe in a psycho-misogynistic-genocidal-patriarch but thats because you're all entrenched in this religious waste of time that you just don't understand the world. period. You could say I don't understand the world because I just went on an offensive tirade that i'm sure will offend, but I'm not going to apologize to a god who doesn't listen. I won't pray to a god who distracts you from the beauty of the universe and the divine human beings that populate it.

"_Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock._" Psalms 137:9 NAB

_"While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity."_


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## Fant?me

i killed debate


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## Pablo

I agree with a lot of what you say but there is a depth to nearly every religion which you are not aware of, but nor are the majority of so called 'religious' people aware of the depth, I would say maybe less than 10% really get it. Most people are religious due to either conditioning: they were brought up to believe; or through fear: they want someone to hold their hand and reward them when they are good; or for egoic reasons: finding the 'true' religion makes them feel proud and superior to other people and respected in their community. All of these reasons which account for most 'religious' people are simply childish immature reasons .

To be truely religious means refining your consciousness so it becomes more pure so you can see who you truely are and what is in your heart so you can become free from all your identifications and life conditionings, it is a path into insecurity and fear, it means truely facing up to reality.

Just about every religion has higher teachings which can transform your consciousness but the majority of people just find rules and regulations and think that by applying these rules they are religious, but history shows that nearly everyone fails. You cant become like Jesus just through obaying rules and worship, the amount of pedophile priests and Christian wars shows this to be true; you cant become like Muhammad just by praying and growing a beard and reading the Koran, just look at the terrorists and extremists. Normal effort gets you nowhere, you just end up repressing your emotions which then come out in destructive ways.

What I am talking about is that every relgion has an esoteric part which has methods which you can use to purify your body, emotions and conscioussness, Hindus > Vedanta, Islam > Sufism, Christianity > Gnosticism & Gurdjieff 4th way. Some people say these are just mystical interpretations but to me they are the only ones which make any sense at all. Most of the stories in the Bible and Koran are metaphor and teachings which can only really be understood on a deep level, but most idiots interpret them literally. The Sufi Rumi says there are seven levels of the Koran and used dances and whirling techniques to impart the knowledge necessary to understand its teachings. There are dozens of yoga and meditation techniques in Vedanta Hinduism which take you into your hidden depths. There are a number of contemplative meditations in the Gnostic tradition, some gnostics even believe the crucifiction of Christ was a teaching showing that christ consciousness cant be pinned down and the crown of thorns represents the constricting analytical mind.

The reality which the true religious people try to convey cant be expressed through normal language which only appeals to the rational intellect and is dual in nature, which is why they use metaphor and poetic language. So in a way true relilgion isnt rational but large aspects of life arent rational like your emotions and love is hardly ever rational.


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## CECIL

Lol Fantome, I'm not sure how much of that awesome rant was directed at me, but if it was it was surely misplaced 

Firstly when I say "Christ Consciousness" I am NOT talking about embracing Jesus and worshipping the bible. "Christ Consciousness", like I think I said earlier in the thread is just a name for the next step in the evolution of human consciousness. The general energy of this next step is love, harmony, acceptance and togetherness, which I think you were alluding to in your post.

Second, the whole deal with Adam and Eve most definately WAS a setup. Think about it - if you lived in a utopian garden and had everything you ever needed you would be *bored out of your skull*. To this end, "God" set up Adam and Eve so they would take their first steps down the tree of knowledge. The ultimate end? That they too would bear the knowledge of god. i.e. That we as humans literally become gods ourselves  Keep in mind I'm speaking about all of this as metaphors, I don't take it literally.

As for the rest, I mostly agree with you but can't be bothered going on an anti-religious rant right now


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## CECIL

Fant?me said:


> Well, you're absolutely implying that there is a battle between reason/science and religion. Rational thought is winning the war, but if you're battling rationality, then surely thats transitive to saying religion is irrational.


I believe that people with DP and Depression are constantly fighting a war between emotions and rationality. Perhaps I am just projecting, but that is my experience with the two states of being. The rational mind trying to control and destroy the existance of emotions and intuition.

I see the issues in myself reflected in the macrocosm of the world. Science tries to crush any sign of emotion, subjectivity and intuition within its scientific method. I know this because I've studied science and was a part of it for a few years. Yet what actually happens in science is FAR from devoid of these factors. You'll just never read about that in a scientific journal because those factors are denied and systematically stamped out in the reporting process, which focusses on ONLY physically observable phenomenon and rational explanations. The very conception of science itself was due to a vision in which an angel gave a man the idea. Seem wierd? Does to me.

Rational skepticism has taken over our thinking. Noone will believe anything unless they can see rational and overwhelming proof in front of them. Yet this is not how reality works.

I believe the next step in our evolution is balancing out these two aspects of our psyche. Embracing both the rational and the emotional/intuitional. Its the way I am healing from depression and DP and I see it as the way to heal the schisms that are present in the global macrocosm too.


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## Pablo

CECIL said:


> I believe that people with DP and Depression are constantly fighting a war between emotions and rationality. Perhaps I am just projecting, but that is my experience with the two states of being. The rational mind trying to control and destroy the existance of emotions and intuition.
> 
> I see the issues in myself reflected in the macrocosm of the world. Science tries to crush any sign of emotion, subjectivity and intuition within its scientific method. I know this because I've studied science and was a part of it for a few years. Yet what actually happens in science is FAR from devoid of these factors. You'll just never read about that in a scientific journal because those factors are denied and systematically stamped out in the reporting process, which focusses on ONLY physically observable phenomenon and rational explanations. The very conception of science itself was due to a vision in which an angel gave a man the idea. Seem wierd? Does to me.
> 
> Rational skepticism has taken over our thinking. Noone will believe anything unless they can see rational and overwhelming proof in front of them. Yet this is not how reality works.
> 
> I believe the next step in our evolution is balancing out these two aspects of our psyche. Embracing both the rational and the emotional/intuitional. Its the way I am healing from depression and DP and I see it as the way to heal the schisms that are present in the global macrocosm too.


I understand what you mean Cecil, we are certainly a product of our environment and culture. I bet problems like dp are far less common in other cultures and times.

I certainly used to base the way I was on being as rational and logical as possible, I used to hate it if I was conradictory or illogical and what has suffered is my emotional life and my body/mind balance. Humans on the whole arent logical or rational or consistant because life and consciousness is a fluid process, but most people try their best to make themselves as solid as possible, which can only be done at the expense of emotional repression.

I think a lot of it is due to the influence of Newtonian world view that everything works due to a few mechanical simple laws, but I think the progress of quantum physics is starting to seep out into our culture slowly, through stuff like 'What the bleep' film and the growing interest in energy therapies and human energy manipulation. Also our main religions have basically served their purpose and are now failing to really give any alternative to the conclusion that 'God is dead' so we need a new modern evolved form of spirituality to emerge. Christian culture also has a lot to answer to for causing a lot of these mind body splits.

Im not sure where this new spiritual direction is going to come from, I have been looking hard over the past few years for it but the only form which I have found which I think could really suit our culture is Sufism but it is too heavily linked with Islam for it to get a mass popular following. Buddhism could help a lot but it is too opposed to individuality for it to become popular in western type countries. I suppose all we can do is look for ourselves and find what we can to fix the imbalance our culture and environment has imposed on our psyche and hope in time the rest find their way.


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## CECIL

Pablo said:


> Im not sure where this new spiritual direction is going to come from.


Its going to come from within you


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## mybrainhurts

I'm choking on Jesus.


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## Guest

"God is lord"... :? :lol:


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## Martinelv

> Yeah but how do men become more Christlike?


Well, according to the New Testament, you have to start hearing voices in your head telling you that you are the son of God, scorn your parents, leave all your worldly possessions behind, start a cult, get yourself nailed to a cross, then come magically back to life. Simple.


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## Guest

Thank you "*Martinelv*" ; you are "the" man *nods*  *thumbs up* I totally agree with you.


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## Cam

> Yeah but how do men become more Christlike?





Martinelv said:


> Well, according to the New Testament, you have to start hearing voices in your head telling you that you are the son of God, scorn your parents, leave all your worldly possessions behind, start a cult, get yourself nailed to a cross, then come magically back to life. Simple.


Sarcasm at its best HAHA.


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## Pablo

Martinelv said:


> Yeah but how do men become more Christlike?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, according to the New Testament, you have to start hearing voices in your head telling you that you are the son of God, scorn your parents, leave all your worldly possessions behind, start a cult, get yourself nailed to a cross, then come magically back to life. Simple.
Click to expand...

Yes but you also get a starring role in a Mel Gibson blockbuster so maybe its worth a go.


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## Martinelv

> Yes but you also get a starring role in a Mel Gibson blockbuster so maybe its worth a go.


Hee hee, that is true.

Sarcasm Black Box? Not at all. It' all there in the 'good' buck.


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## Cam

Martinelv said:


> Sarcasm Black Box? Not at all. It' all there in the 'good' buck.


That's gold LOL :lol:


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## CECIL

Martinelv said:


> Yeah but how do men become more Christlike?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, according to the New Testament, you have to start hearing voices in your head telling you that you are the son of God, scorn your parents, leave all your worldly possessions behind, start a cult, get yourself nailed to a cross, then come magically back to life. Simple.
Click to expand...

I think you've missed the point.

To become more "Christ-like":

- Be accepting and love everything and everyone (Especially yourself).
- Take responsibility for your own emotions and your own actions.
- Allow yourself and others the space to be themselves.
- *Balance* your rational mind with your "Other side" (I.e. Emotion, intuition, FAITH).


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## Martinelv

> I think you've missed the point.


No I haven't. You are assuming that christ is the only person with human virtues, ergo:



> Be accepting and love everything and everyone (Especially yourself).
> - Take responsibility for your own emotions and your own actions.
> - Allow yourself and others the space to be themselves.
> - Balance your rational mind with your "Other side" (I.e. Emotion, intuition, FAITH).


Well knock me down with a feather. Isn't that what normal, stable, balanced humanists do? Can I add a couple to your list?

1.) Take regular baths
2.) Don't wear odd socks.

:roll:


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## suz

Oh shoot! My socks are always odd...

I'm a bad person.

This thread amuses me, pay me no mind.

zbohem x :wink:


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## Guest

You's a good person for being "Free styly"


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## suz

Emulated Puppet}eer said:


> You's a good person for being "Free styly" [/i]


Why thank you good sir.

I feel my soul may have been redeemed. 

zbohem x


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## Guest

No worries Miss... With ease I cheer yous up =)


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## suz

It's your job.

zbohem x


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## Guest

Today is pay day *holds left hand out*... chop chop! =P


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## suz

I do believe you are a volunteer... and I do believe I have you there.

zbohem x


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## Guest

I volunteer to support people who are nuts; I take it you?ll get my service for free? =P


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## suz

You knows it.

Here we go loopdy-loo,
Here we go loopdy-lie,
Here we go loopdy-loo...

zbohem x


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## Guest

*Give you a lolly pop* =P


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## suz

My God, I am the lollypopfairy. I'll give yo my Myspace one day.

Freaky.

zbohem x


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## Guest

Okeys Princess Haushinka


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## suz

Hmmm, does that mean you've already seen it?

zbohem x


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## CECIL

Martinelv said:


> Well knock me down with a feather. Isn't that what normal, stable, balanced humanists do? Can I add a couple to your list?
> 
> 1.) Take regular baths
> 2.) Don't wear odd socks.
> 
> :roll:


Exactly. Though it goes deeper than that, too, for example into "seeing" the world of energy. "Prying up the floorboards of reality", if you will.

i.e. Experiencing the underlying love/energy/consciousness of the universe.


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## Martinelv

You see Cecil, friend, this is the kind of meaningless worldplay that means exactly nothing:



> "seeing" the world of energy


What? Are you a quantum physicist? Energy is just mass, and visa versa.



> Experiencing the underlying love/energy/consciousness of the universe.


I repeat, this is classic pantheist mumbling. Although, you ascribe a consciousness to this 'energy', so perhaps you are a deist. You sound a little confused to me. :wink: [/quote]


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## mybrainhurts

Experiencing the underlying love/energy/consciousness of the universe.

I repeat, this is classic pantheist mumbling.

No, it's not. It's a very real experience, spiritual transcendence. This is what a spiritual experience IS.

But unless and until you have that experience you'll just consider that others who HAVE had that experience are full of shit.

Isn't there a saying 'God is love'?


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## CECIL

Martinelv said:


> You see Cecil, friend, this is the kind of meaningless worldplay that means exactly nothing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "seeing" the world of energy
> 
> 
> 
> What? Are you a quantum physicist? Energy is just mass, and visa versa.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Experiencing the underlying love/energy/consciousness of the universe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I repeat, this is classic pantheist mumbling. Although, you ascribe a consciousness to this 'energy', so perhaps you are a deist. You sound a little confused to me. :wink:
Click to expand...

[/quote]

Maybe I should have said "Feeling" energy instead  Honestly people experience it in different ways. I personally feel it, others see.

Energy is mass and vice versa. So if you learn to see/feel energy you can learn to move it consciously and make real changes in the world. But anyway, that's another story.

The point is that we are at a turning point in our evolution as a species. We have the option of becoming a global community and being more open, honest and involved with each other. We have the opportunity to rip down all of our social constructs (Government, beliefs, health care systems etc) that simply aren't working for us and build something new.

Paraphrased from Terrence McKenna: "We can rebuild our society as a system based on emotional values rather than material wealth". All of these changes involve people becoming more aware of themselves and being accepting of themselves and others. That in itself is a massive change which would have a lot of positive consequences for the world. If it sounds simple its because it is simple. Its as simple as stopping living in fear and feeling like we need to survive and instead just start actually living our lives.

Your story about the man in the bar is a perfect example Martin. You really connected to another human being and you were appreciated for it. If everyone could experience that once a day we'll be on the right track


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## Martinelv

> No, it's not. It's a very real experience, spiritual transcendence. This is what a spiritual experience IS.


No, it is a personal, subjective experience, so has no reality-value whatsoever. Similarly, people who haven't experienced DR/DP think we are full of shit because they haven't experienced it - however, it is a recognised, medical condition - so does have reality-value.



> spiritual transcendence


THE favourite word play of all time! Covers all manner of intellectual sins.


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## HalfAPerson

Martinelv said:


> No, it is a personal, subjective experience, so has no reality-value whatsoever. Similarly, people who haven't experienced DR/DP think we are full of shit because they haven't experienced it - however, it is a recognised, medical condition - so does have reality-value.


For some reason this got me riled. I'm not really sure why, since I'm not a rabid believer (rather I'm roughly in the "I have no idea, but am trying to keep an open mind and figure this all out" boat). The fields of science and medicine are most likely never going to be able to definitely prove "spiritual trancendence" because how could they? The parameters exclude the spiritual domain from the get-go.

There is NO difference between the EXPERIENCE of depersonalization and the EXPERIENCE of "spiritual transcendence" in terms of being things going on in the MIND (not the brain) that other people can not prove scientifically. As far as I can make out, at any rate.


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## Pablo

Martinelv said:


> No, it's not. It's a very real experience, spiritual transcendence. This is what a spiritual experience IS.
> 
> 
> 
> No, it is a personal, subjective experience, so has no reality-value whatsoever.
Click to expand...

So what has reality value ? , how many objective truths really exist, most peoples experiences are complelely coloured by their own conditioning that every experience is subjective, even science now believes this with Heisenberg's uncertainty principe stating that the meaning of scientific experiments is influenced by the person observing the experiment, and as us with dp know reality is not shared therefore pretty much the whole of life is subjective.


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## Martinelv

> The fields of science and medicine are most likely never going to be able to definitely prove "spiritual trancendence" because how could they? The parameters exclude the spiritual domain from the get-go.


Yes, absolutely. You made my point for me. Why do people suddenly think, ney - expect science to 'explain' 'god'!!!!!! For a start, the burdon of proof is ON THE RELIGIOUS, not scientists, and there is no way (and oh my, don't the religious love it) to disprove god/s existence. In the same way we can't disprove santa or the invisible leprahaun sitting on my shoulder. Saying that the 'parameters' (what?) are outside the spiritual domain is like sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la-la-la-la-la-la-la2 not listening".

I wonder, do the religious cross the road with their eyes shut just because we can't be certain that a car isn't about to knock them over? Answer? No. So why do they forget this rather important fact when droning on about god/s?


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## Martinelv

> So what has reality value ? , how many objective truths really exist, most peoples experiences are complelely coloured by their own conditioning that every experience is subjective


Not true. You are attempting to use the tired old philosophical argument about 'what is reality?'. It is the last attempt of the religious before they fall backwards off the cliff of consensual reality.

Consensual reality: Unless you are mad, on drugs, colour blind, or sufffer from some medical complaint, reality is reality, for us rich westerners to the poverty striken. We are both sitting typing away on computers? I'd guess you'd agree? Grass is green? Yes? You'd suffer pain if you stuff a knife in your guts?

For example, someone who has terrible eye-sight. They can see virtually nothing. The world looks different, cloudy, distant maybe. But put their glasses on and hey presto, it looks the same as everyone else. In a similar way, take off the god-goggles and reality will look just the same as everyone else.


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## CECIL

Science and rationality is built from the ground up to deny subjective experience. It has no place for subjective experience, saying that it can't be "proven" and is "not real".

Well I've got news for you folks: When you doubt the existance of your own subjective experience you end up with DP :roll:

Just because something is subjective doesn't mean its not real. In fact, it is the ONLY thing that is real. i.e. Every focus of consciousness in existence (note this means more than just human beings) has a unique subjective experience and they are all real, all valid.


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## Martinelv

> Science and rationality is built from the ground up to deny subjective experience


Yes, and a bloody good job too.


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## HalfAPerson

Martinelv said:


> Saying that the 'parameters' (what?) are outside the spiritual domain is like sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la-la-la-la-la-la-la2 not listening".


pa?ram?e?ter - n., LIMIT, BOUNDARY -- usually used in plural

Is it only the religious that are sticking their fingers in their ears? Just as some put their faith in God, some put their faith in science e.g., Darwin, and say "Well...that explains it", when inevitably we get to the point that things cannot be explained. Some people choose then to consider things outside of the known natural laws i.e., the supernatural and some people don't.

However, I don't think because one looks to the supernatural for explanations that it's necessarily throwing the towel in. It's making a choice of what to put your faith in. People that don't have religious and/or spiritual faith will keep digging and digging to someday find explanations within the natural world, and who knows, maybe one day they WILL be able to explain everything. But I don't think we're at that point yet. In the meantime, I'm considering all of the options.



Martinelv said:


> I wonder, do the religious cross the road with their eyes shut just because we can't be certain that a car isn't about to knock them over? Answer? No. So why do they forget this rather important fact when droning on about god/s?


Your tone here and other places on the forum suggests that religious people are ignorant fools (and I admit, I've been guilty of that line of thinking myself). Overall it's a sweeping generalization. There are intelligent, rational people who have faith in God, or at least an "Intelligent Designer." People that understand and can explain science a lot better than you or I ever could.


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## Pablo

Martinelv said:


> Consensual reality: Unless you are mad, on drugs, colour blind, or sufffer from some medical complaint, reality is reality, for us rich westerners to the poverty striken. We are both sitting typing away on computers? I'd guess you'd agree? Grass is green? Yes? You'd suffer pain if you stuff a knife in your guts?
> 
> For example, someone who has terrible eye-sight. They can see virtually nothing. The world looks different, cloudy, distant maybe. But put their glasses on and hey presto, it looks the same as everyone else. In a similar way, take off the god-goggles and reality will look just the same as everyone else.


Yes we all have eyes and ears and all the same senses, grass is green, but our interpretation of what we experience is completely subjective. You talk about consensual reality but you ignore the fact that what we experience as reality is coloured and filtered by our emotional state and our past experiences and conditioning. Two different people can experience exactly the same thing or meet the exact same person and leave with completely different impressions and meanings from the encounter. One person could get a knife in the guts and it could leave them emotionally shattered for life, while another person might be back to normal in a few weeks, the consensual (2D) reality is that they both got a knife in the guts and it hurt, but the subjective (3D) reality is that the experience is different because of the emotional impact and meaning of the event. Science deals with evidence and facts but it does not deal with meaning and humans automatically look and derive meaning from everthing that happens (everyone not just the God botherers).



Cecil said:


> Well I've got news for you folks: When you doubt the existance of your own subjective experience you end up with DP Rolling Eyes


Exactly. You have a choice to either deny your subjective reality and live in 2D which is a life without meaning and probably a mental problem, or you can live in 3D accepting you subjective emotional life with a life of depth and possibility.


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## HalfAPerson

Pablo said:


> Yes we all have eyes and ears and all the same senses, grass is green, but our interpretation of what we experience is completely subjective. You talk about consensual reality but you ignore the fact that what we experience as reality is coloured and filtered by our emotional state and our past experiences and conditioning. Two different people can experience exactly the same thing or meet the exact same person and leave with completely different impressions and meanings from the encounter. One person could get a knife in the guts and it could leave them emotionally shattered for life, while another person might be back to normal in a few weeks, the consensual (2D) reality is that they both got a knife in the guts and it hurt, but the subjective (3D) reality is that the experience is different because of the emotional impact and meaning of the event.


Well said.



Pablo said:


> Science deals with evidence and facts but it does not deal with meaning and humans automatically look and derive meaning from everthing that happens (everyone not just the God botherers).


Completely agree. Our brains aren't just "computers made of meat" as Melvin Minsky said. Parts of the brain are observable, but what's going on inside the mind isn't. It's a completely subjective experience.


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## CECIL

Well said as usual Pablo 



HalfAPerson said:


> inevitably we get to the point that things cannot be explained. Some people choose then to consider things outside of the known natural laws i.e., the supernatural and some people don't.


See, I tend to believe that science and spirituality can meet somewhere in the middle. Also "supernatural" is really just a word for those parts of reality we aren't consciously aware of yet as a species. But we constantly evolve and gradually our awareness grows


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## Martinelv

Hey guys!

Thanks for your responses. I will get back to you (I can hear the groans, oh yes), but I'm in a mad rush.

But please, I'm not trying to be condascending.

Martin.x


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## Rozanne

Dear Martin,
Being gifted with psychic abilities...i don't know how you can say it is a good thing when science is used to argue against spiritual/subjective things...
Rozanne


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## HalfAPerson

CECIL said:


> See, I tend to believe that science and spirituality can meet somewhere in the middle.


I don't think they mutually exclude each other either...surely there are scientists who are spritual. If that's what you mean (I'm a smidge confused).



CECIL said:


> Also "supernatural" is really just a word for those parts of reality we aren't consciously aware of yet as a species. But we constantly evolve and gradually our awareness grows


Food for thought. Although, I think I may need to go on a diet when it comes to this line of thinking as it tends to send me into a tail spin of unanswerable questions. Do you mean as a species we'll eventually evolve to be able to be aware of the supernatural? Or that, as individuals, we can evolve and increase our awareness?

Also, just to clarify...in an earlier post you said that you believe in Jesus, just not in the same way I do. I don't actually know if I believe in him. I suppose I believe in the _possibility_ of him. Just wanted to hear some believers' perspectives on the crucifixtion since it's always puzzled me. Didn't mean to imply that your opinion wasn't valid...hope you didn't take it that way.


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## Martinelv

> don't know how you can say it is a good thing when science is used to argue against spiritual/subjective things...


No you see, that's the point. Science doesn't concern itself with religion. It is beyond it's remit. Science does NOT say that god does not exist, or santa, or the tooth fairy, because objective realitys cannot be scientifically confirmed.

As I said, I don't believe what I do has anything to do with spirits (I may be wrong). Just something we don't understand, yet, and may never will. I, unlike the religious it seems, am comfortable with not knowing. It makes the world more exciting, and invigorating when you discover something new.[/quote]


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## Rozanne

To be honest I thought one aspect of being religious was acknowledging the not knowing. The more I read of yours and the more atheists I meet the less I think there is even a difference between us, as some atheists say they think these is an aspect of reality which is somehow unavailable to us people down here. I personally call that God because it is convenient and also accepting of the divine power and beauty of it. I suppose that believing it is there requires that you sort of see it. That is where the confusion is...understandably we all have a different view point. I see the power of God as being tied up with creativity. I see the beauty of God as being evident in what is created. So I do not see God himself but his finger prints all around me. No doubt it sounds like a strange thing to say, but looked at like that, God does seem like a very real being/non-being.

If you look at a stary sky, do you not feel amazing? I lay outside on rug and look at the sky, it just changes the way I see things.


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## Martinelv

Interesting points Alexia.



> I personally call that God because it is convenient and also accepting of the divine power and beauty of it. I suppose that believing it is there requires that you sort of see it. That is where the confusion is...understandably we all have a different view point. I see the power of God as being tied up with creativity. I see the beauty of God as being evident in what is created. So I do not see God himself but his finger prints all around me.


Then you are a pantheist. I like pantheists.


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## Rozanne

I have been thinking about this lately...it is a sort of inspiration that makes everything look divine but I don't know if I'd say I was pantheist.

The way I visualise it is that there is a thing, a deep silence, and that in there lies this mysterious thing that is unavailable to us...He's God.

Pantheism is interesting... something that I was inspired by in a book recently which had the line "Each dew drop reflects the sun". I don't see everything as God, I see God in everything...so I don't regard myself as a pantheist - I do not worship the ground however I do think that God made the ground and that is what makes it valuable/meaningful to me.

At the end of the day, this belief may be false, and a way of finding meaning in the meaningless. But I have a way of dealing with all my experiences, thoughts and feelings, and that is to acknoweldge that they are only subjective feelings...and cannot be trusted 100%. The thing is that even with this attitude, if you come to explore your internal life you do start to trust your thoughts and feelings anyway.

Its a sort of indifference, where you see all the coincidence, beauty, love and the rest and yet at the same time don't hold onto it. So synchronicity happens but I can never fathom the meaning of it, if there is any, so I don't. ...a lot of it does seem to happen. A friend and I are deeply connected and he did once say he had lived his own version of the film about Samson and Delilah. We were smoking some really strong tabacco called Samson and I commented that it was strong...he said that I could overcome it because I was Delilah.

That was Saturday. Today, Wednesday, I am in a stats tutorial where they give out a photocopied sheet on causality. (I obviously didn't learn much from it considering what I took from the lesson)...the first word I read is Delilah and it is a short remark that "many of us were led to believe that Samson's fortunes changed when Delilah cut off his hair.

Rather embarassingly I had no idea this was a Bible story and actually thought it was a country and western or something. When I told my friend he was a bit miffed to say the least...and isn't speaking to me now. I don't blame him.


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## CECIL

HalfAPerson said:


> I don't think they mutually exclude each other either...surely there are scientists who are spritual. If that's what you mean (I'm a smidge confused).


Well yes, there are scientists that are spiritual. But what I mean is that the actual practice of science isn't as objective as its made out to be. If you read a scientific paper it will give all the objective and factual information about how the project was carried out, what happened and what was learned. What it doesn't tell you is how that particular scientist struggled for years to make sense of their work, how they were INSPIRED (A subjective and mystical experience) to take the work in a particular direction, and so on and so forth.

In other words, theres a whole lot of subjective experience and factors that aren't explained by science that go into any scientific work, yet this is systematically discredited and edited out. Just doesn't make sense to me :roll:



> Food for thought. Although, I think I may need to go on a diet when it comes to this line of thinking as it tends to send me into a tail spin of unanswerable questions. Do you mean as a species we'll eventually evolve to be able to be aware of the supernatural? Or that, as individuals, we can evolve and increase our awareness?


I mean both  As individuals we can evolve our awareness to include phenomena that are currently outside our conscious awareness. For example I believe its possible to learn to "see" energy and to consciously use it to effect the world, though I have only had limited success with it personally.

Eventually (Or perhaps sooner than we might think) the collective level of awareness of our species will increase to the point where what we call "Supernatural" now will become common knowledge. Well, either that or we'll all die along with our planet, but I'm an optimist 



> Also, just to clarify...in an earlier post you said that you believe in Jesus, just not in the same way I do. I don't actually know if I believe in him. I suppose I believe in the _possibility_ of him. Just wanted to hear some believers' perspectives on the crucifixtion since it's always puzzled me. Didn't mean to imply that your opinion wasn't valid...hope you didn't take it that way.


Nope I didn't take it that way - we all have different beliefs and I'd be a massive hyprocrite if I didn't honour other people's, considering mine lie so far outside the norm 

Put it this way - It doesn't matter to me if Jesus was real or not. I believe in the message his story was trying to get across to us. It was a message that was 2000 years ahead of its time, but it got the ball rolling. And that message IMO was (in a nutshell) to believe in yourself, honour yourself and the universe. Love everything and everyone. Simple really 

As for the Crucifixion, I'm not sure. I'm inclined to believe that Jesus wanted nothing to do with Martyrdom and that the stories of his death were greatly exaggerated. I certainly don't believe anyone had to die to redeem our sins, because in the eyes of the universe there is no such thing as sin - only love, understanding and learning from mistakes.

As for the resurrection, its a powerful metaphor detailing our own inherent immortality. The message and point there being that to be "resurrected" you just need to become aware of your inherent immortality (i.e. it doesn't have to be earned, it just is). Then death is just an illusion and it gives you a very different perspective on life.



> The way I visualise it is that there is a thing, a deep silence, and that in there lies this mysterious thing that is unavailable to us...He's God.


Yes, the mystery is something I have problems with. I often feel like I need to know exactly what's going on before I can take another step, but of course that's not possible (its only by doing that we learn).

Though I don't think God is unavailable to us - its as much a part of us as we are of it


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