# maybe this is the solution for EVERYBODY



## hakan (Mar 1, 2006)

hi guys,
i should say unlucky guys as I am.
I have been trying to find out a solution for the last 1 month about my current state of life.
I followed this forum couple of times, which made me feel bad when I read what other people have experienced.
I came back to share what I found out today.Maybe it can be of help to any of you who is still suffering.

I realized that the problem lies(in my case a dream I saw after I smoked a joint) in losing everything I have believed up to that time and starting to believe in that dream which was formed based on my ideas and thoughts.

This results in losing the old reality and anything that was precious or meaningful for you, and as a result yourself.

The only thing left is your body,you realize constantly but you dont know what to believe in anymore,"aliens,holograms,matrix..etc-whatever that scares you the most maybe suddenly becomes the new reality for you..

so dont stop thinking about existence and everyhing and try to recover what your old ideas,goals about life were. try to be the one you were.i guess i know how difficult it can be,but i started trying already.

dont stop fighting.there is a BEAUTIFUL life going on out there,waiting to be explored.and so many peoplehoping for a slice of bread to continue living.
the nature needs you.
what i believe is we are the children of nature...
we need to be healthy for it to continue its existence.
dont believe in something irrational.
it is hard i know.
i m fighting against the GOD in my dream which was not really nice.
my problem is, i think i m doing right things in life, and i saw this dream and in return i got this punishment,i saw that i was the worst possible person ever.
can you imagine how devestating this can be.all the right things i have ever believed were gone in a second, and i was left alone,feeling not belonging to this world.

BELIEVE IN NATURE,i dont want to force to anything, BUT IF THERE IS A GOD IT IS THE NATURE AND IT NEEDS US.

GOOD LUCK TO EVERYBODY:
i still dont go to bed because i m still scared of my dreams,although i have to sleep to go to work tomorrow.

so it is not easy.but reform what is right and wrong for you.what is rational 
and irrational for you.
maybe it works.but i believe this is the solution.

bye for now.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

That is a really touching message. I wouldn't aim to be just like I was previously, though. But I think I see your point - it is a big shock to the system to lose one's meaning structure. Even now, if there is a very challenging situation I can literally turn around and say I don't know WHAT to believe in anymore. People seem to find that very strange. But living with this is like having a constantly changing sense of self and a constantly changing world outlook. Nothing ever stays the same. I personally believe that that is the true nature of things, but that it is not how the human mind is meant to function. Human beings are meant to be deluded.

Take care everyone
Romona


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## IvyGray (Feb 22, 2006)

Miss Starling, I don't post much but I had to after reading your reply because that is JUST what I was thinking this very morning! I try not to focus much on my DP/DR as much as possible because as we all know by now, that just makes it worse. However I can't help but theorize and philosophize about it now again. Such was my today morning on the way to work :wink:

My personal belief is exactly what you say: "Human minds are MEANT to be deluded". We will never have all the answers regarding our existance because at this point in time that is impossible. I think our mind as it has now evolved simply can not fathom the meaning of 'self' or 'existence'. I think that's why so many of us DP-ers OBSESS over existential angst, creating more and more anxiety and worse DP/DR. As if our minds just can't handle such deep thought. To be happy we must be deluded and oblivious. As humans we can't think too deeply about our own existence and what it means, and how we "feel" and the absurdity of the universe. It seems as if that sort of thinking is the cause of much of this in the first place. Whether it be a drug episode which made someone question reality, or anxiety over "self".. DP seems to be a symptom of some event that shattered what we thought reality was. I can remember as a child that whenever I would start thinking about the stars and the universe and where it all ended .. I would get episodes of DP/DR .. though I had no clue what it was back then. As soon as I stopped thinking about those things I went back to normal. I didn't think twice of it. It was only when I started "getting stuck" on those thoughts as an adult that my DR became a constant. I've talked to others as well who can't even think about the concept of "infinity" or whatever else without immediately spacing out .. and these are "normal people" without any DP problem otherwise. So .. just food for thought.

Additionally (and I'm sure I'll get beef for this, but that's okay) I feel that this is the reason humanity has always sought out religon and spirituality. It gives us answers and takes some of the existential worry away. I *wish* I could be a religous person and believe in a creator and whatnot, that would take alot of my anxiety away and probably much of the DP as well. But that sort of thinking just isn't logical to me. For the religous folks out there, I'm not one to tell you you're wrong because we'll never really know that answer. But .. you know .. just saying that it's an easy out if you're looking for peace of mind. I think it's been the salvation for humanity since the dawn of time. If there was nothing for people to believe in everyone would be DP'd. Though I know there are religous people on this board, personally I can not reconcile the two.

But yes, got off topic there but basically what I'm saying is that to break the DP/DR cycle you really have to force yourself to be deluded. Stop thinking and stop questioning your self and thoughts and perception. Everyone that is looking for an answer as to what it feels like to "not be DP'd"? That's it. Be ignorant of the "deeper questions" and just live your life.


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## ashley50 (Feb 17, 2006)

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## IvyGray (Feb 22, 2006)

Ashley, yes I agree with you as well. Delusion .. denial .. whatever. I'm not sure of the best word to use here as a description but it's the underlying concept I'm trying to get at. To oversimplify my thoughts -- I believe that most attempts at analyzing existential idealogies (such as your discussion in class) can bring on a DP-like state for people that are deep thinkers. Just as a drug experience can do that as well, if it triggers existential thoughts in someone who before really didn't obssess on them. All have to do with - questioning/a breakdown of - your meaning structure (as Miss Starling wrote above). It makes sense that a breakdown of your beliefs in reality and your self would trigger feelings of dissociation from your "self". Again I am absurdly oversimplifying my thoughts on this .. but I think you all get what I'm saying here. If we could all go back to a time (for those of use who had such a past) when we just accepted the world as it was, accepted ourselves as a part of nature and the universe, didn't obssess over our existence, meaning of self, etc .. I think the DP/DR would not exist. Of course that former state does involve living in a sort of "denial" or "delusion" from a DP-ers viewpoint, because once you've experienced DP/DR you feel very enlightened, and maybe we are. Maybe everyone else is deluded .. maybe the human mind must be in denial for us to live peacefully and fully engaged in life. So hard to say. Just my thoughts..


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> I believe that most attempts at analyzing existential idealogies (such as your discussion in class) can bring on a DP-like state for people that are deep thinkers.


That is very true and the bible even gives clues as to the fact that knowledge can cause pain. Even the wise King Solomon talked much about vexation and pain in the books of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes. It would not be wise to disown wisdom and embrace ignorance just because wisdom causes pain though.



> This results in losing the old reality and anything that was precious or meaningful for you, and as a result yourself.


I simply realized that this feeling was an excape from the old lie's that I had believed in. Simple people find it very easy to believe in something (good or bad) just because they "feel it". For us more complex people, we need facts more then anything because we only guid ourselves based on facts and most of us find it very hard to believe in anything. 
I just wanted to post here to let everyone know that it was after I had gotten DP/DR that I was able to find God and after many years of study and thought I am now fully assured about every single scripture in the bible as being a fact. I no longer have one single doubt about God but I will admit that finding faith in myself to do what is right is still very hard.

Having faith in God does not require that you "feel it". It only requires that you obtain the knowledge of the truth about him and his activities. Finding these answers will cause pain at first but then they will bring on a form of happiness that you can't find anywhere else.



> We will never have all the answers regarding our existance because at this point in time that is impossible.


We may not find all the knowledge that God has but I assure you that all the answers we need are available in the bible.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

Hakan + IvyGray in my eye's your solution is that we embrace ignorance in order to avoid pain and I am totally against that.

Maybe I just got the wrong idea from you but if you were instigating that we embrace ignorance to avoid pain then you might as well just tell everyone to start smoking crack because that will make everyone stop thinking about the deep questions in life. We ask the deep questions in life for a reason and people with DP/DR are not the only ones doing this. You will never find answers if you stop asking questions. My advise would be to keep thinking those deep thoughts and keep asking those questions until you feel that you have found enough answers to make you happy and satisfied in life, then do what you can to share your answers with the world.



> "Human minds are MEANT to be deluded"


 :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x

Delude youself all you want but don't push your delusions on the rest of us.

I am sorry but that comment is wayyyyyy offf.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Hi,
This is interesting conversation! When I said deluded, I mean that to function, a body (inc. ego) works in a certain way in order to function. The ego is meant to be stable in a person. Usually a person goes through a variety of situations and meets a variety of people, and at the same time there is a sense of continuity. The experience that the self today is the same self as the one 20yrs ago. 
So! Does the way in which the body works, in order to function, correlate with the reality of the true nature of life? You would have to not have a human body to answer that. Everything we perceive or think about is done within the constraints of the body, no matter HOW out of your head you are! 
I would imagine that time is different to the way we experience it as people; afterall, once you have experienced time speeding up and slowing down you tend to recognise the subjectiveness of these things. Also, it is a logical to expect that the body is indeed different one day to the next, that some physical change has been undergone. There is also the issue of identity...I mean, in my rather dissociated states, I honestly couldn't see how the atoms that made up the molecules of the air were any more NOT-me than the atoms that were contained in my body. 
So my theory is that, if you were able to think with a completely objective mind, it would be incredibly de-personalizing. When you analyse things, the self that is usually taken for granted does seem to disappear.
I give my apologies, as I can understand that reading this may be upsetting for people. It upset me too. I honestly couldn't see how I could ever believe in normality again after I had these thoughts and had formed a new outlook completely different to the one before. But there is a bit of a solution...

From the psychological point of view, you have to aim to be human. Funny because when I was really unwell, and my brain felt like it had cracked in two, my priority in life changed entirely: I wished to be average.
Now, I am not saying that it is necessarily possible for one to will oneself to be normal or average. But I think this was an important landmark because rather than wanting to go up and up and up, mentally speaking, I had come to the point where I realised I was denying my body, and had to go back to it so to speak.
As you may see from reading this, my outlook has generally been philosophical/spiritual. A recent change to my meaning structure, yet again, is that this may be a physical disease. I am very keen to believe that is true because my dad had this disorder as well (I never knew him), and I also find people on that side of the family have a certain quality in common with me, a nagging existenitalism.
For a person that has not had a mind-altering experience, ignoring the fabric of life is not exactly denial. Subjective things are taken as fact, and it is taken for granted that people are well-defined and do not change much. But for a person that has had a mind-altering experience, going back to the normal state of a human being does involve cutting oneself off from these higher matters. I think of it as knowing that there is more out there than we human's can know and perceive, but not giving into the desire to find out more. No matter how much a person knows, there is always going to be a mystery underpinning life and how the world exists. For example, they can study and map out the mechanisms of gracity until the cows come home, but I doubt that the ultimate mystery behind gravity is ever found...

Once you have accepted that the true nature of things is underpinned by mystery, it isn't hard to stop looking for the answers!

In fact, it makes no sense to look for answers.

It makes sense to try and understand cause and effect because that can be applied in one's life. But the human body wasn't designed to understand the greatest mysteries in life.

Say this is a psychological condition, then DR/DP could be fuelled by an insatiable appetite for understanding. Unfortunately, for people like me, it is not easy to put that aside. I practically define myself by my ability to think. That is why it insults me if people think I am wrong! Be careful what you write....

Even though I do not believe in God, I think that this mystery could certainly be interpreted as God - unknowable, omnipotent, omniscient. But believing in God is usually a more personalised image than this.

Romona


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> So my theory is that, if you were able to think with a completely objective mind, it would be incredibly de-personalizing.


Exactly! Everyone on earth thinks objective thoughts at one point in there lives but we tend to overthink about these thoughts. It would be wise for us to realize that although the universe is not in our hands it is obviously functioning normally everyday so we need to have a little faith and move past those very harsh objective questions and just realize that everything is perfict and that if it was not perfict then we would not be alive. The laws of the universe are very complex and every single day that these laws do not fall apart is a huge miracle but these laws have been working perfictly for many, many years so we shouldn't question the fabric of reality anymore.



> For a person that has not had a mind-altering experience, ignoring the fabric of life is not exactly denial.


Good point.



> In fact, it makes no sense to look for answers.


That depends on the questions. Many answers exist for questions that people have, but mostly people are just asking the wrong questions.

I will say that again, *mostly people are just asking the wrong questions!*



> Even though I do not believe in God, I think that this mystery could certainly be interpreted as God - unknowable, omnipotent, omniscient. But believing in God is usually a more personalised image than this.


Romona it sounds to me that you are wise enough to realize that a God exist but you don't know who he is, probably because you know that most of what is said about him is wrong. Just because the world is full of lies does not mean there exist no truth. If someone was not keeping the laws of the universe in check then the whole system would fall apart overnight.


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## IvyGray (Feb 22, 2006)

Wow, this truly has become an intersting convo. Ramona -- you and I are on the same page! OF COURSE I'm not telling anyone to regress and become deluded, that's silly. I think some of the subtleties of my thoughts have been lost a bit on some.. no offense to anyone .. but that tends to happen when you're typing instead of speaking. What I was trying to convey was perfectly explained by Ramona's longer post. No matter what any DP-ers out there would like to believe, getting back to a "normal" state -- and that is subjective -- does involve a bit a denial about the higher states of thinking we tend to get 'stuck in' -- the hyper-awareness that comes along with this disorder. Personally I think most great philosophers, writers, artists, suffered with DP. It is a great frame of mind for exploring thought and perception of our self and the universe beyond what the "typical" person ever scratches the surface of. Of course once you focus on these deeper questions it is difficult to be oblivious of them .. ever. I don't think I need to explain further because Ramona you did a great job  As a sidenote, it took several years for me to get to the point I'm now at, and see this for what it is. By nature I am a deep thinker and always will be. I'll never stop questioning and learning, and am not recommending anyone else stop either. But no .. I can not take back my thoughts on the human mind being meant/wired for "denial". I mean denial from a DP perspective. Once you have experieced DP and seen the world and yourself from a completely objective standpoint, where you are fully engaged, then to get back to a state of "normalcy" you would need to step back down to a lower level. I'm not saying I'll ever/ever would be capable of .. doing that myself. What I do think is that any advice telling people to "focus outward" is the same idea. Focus outward means focus on life, not your mind. This is what works.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> getting back to a "normal" state -- and that is subjective -- does involve a bit a denial about the higher states of thinking we tend to get 'stuck in' -- the hyper-awareness that comes along with this disorder.


I am in total agreement with that. I think that everyone that has had DP/DR for a long time will come to that conclusion themselves. Blocking the DP/DR thoughts and Blocking everthing is diffrent though. We don't have to make ourselves into an ignorant person to be able to realize that the world exist and that when we go to sleep at night we can be sure that the world will be here tomorrow  . What we need to do is stop asking stupid questions that we already know the answer to. Also stop asking questions that we know can't be answered.



> BELIEVE IN NATURE,i dont want to force to anything, BUT IF THERE IS A GOD IT IS THE NATURE AND IT NEEDS US.


That comment just went to far and although I understand now why hakan said that, it is still an inaccurate understanding of things. There are actually scriptures in the bible that go directly against what hakan said. By all means, have faith that nature is "real" and it is very important to us but don't call nature God because then you are saying that something that obviously has no intelligence, somehow has a far greater intelligence then what we have. It is funny to me that the biggest thing scientists do is copy the wisdom and intelligence that they see in nature and then go on to say that there is no God, or that our God is evolution. Scientists have figured out that the nature is actually chaos and the natural order of things is that everything falls apart. Nature is actually chaos so it would strike me as odd for someone to say that nature somehow has the intelligence or ability to maintain this enormously complex universe. I do agree that we should not try to figure out how God does his job, but we should never stop asking questions about God and about who he is because these answers are simple and they are very "fitting". Answers exist, just make sure to ask the right questions.


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## hakan (Mar 1, 2006)

Hey friends,
Thinking too much is not good,if you call it being objective or not.Because we can never find a satisfying answer,during the next anxiety period,you will question everything again.

The thing as one of us mentioned before,
call all the energy in the universe as the God.
Everybody is aware of this miracle of being on earth.
But they just say it has an explanation or they say god created us and go on living.

We are in a way lucky,because anytime I look at me and the world around me,I m amazed of this beauty,unpredictibility of life etc.
And say thanks god I am a part of this life.
Trust that, everybody is just as you are.
Dont tryto explain it anymore,because you will form a systemin your you will believe,which will not necessarily be true.

I m trying to do that.
WHen i have anxiety, trying to refind myself in the universe, I say there are 5 billion otherpeople,and the history of human tried to solve this as well.
It is so perfect that you cannot come up with just one explanation.
YOu can sayeverything is a result of a coincidinces as well as god created everything.
This is equally possible.
But, when you think about your spirit,as athinking animal, we need to be a part of something.
Somehtinwhich is good because our main drive in life is being good.
if you do bad,you feel bad.
this says, we are part of the nature. and part of the spirit ofnature is inside 
us.
Think in case some aliens come to earth, you basic instinct would be to defend the world against them if they are agressive of course.

No matter if you are black,white,chinese,american,turkish,german,french.
we are all part of this huge being nature, which might well be created by a good god,or by itself.

and one final thing which might be ralxing.

you dont know how it was before you were born,so you cant decide how it would be after you are dead.
you just know the current state.so just try to lve it.

oh god,why is it so difficult
but try to accept the only reality you know.dont make up something on your mind.

good night


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## hakan (Mar 1, 2006)

and i just realized we ask the wrong questions.
if you ask why life exist,,you cant believe in life.
but it is our current state.
to make our brain realize that we do exist,we should play the game clever
..
we should ask what we should do in life to overcome this.
lets see.
so dont question life itself,question what you should do in life.
which if we think in this way for a long time, would eventually bring us to our previosu state hopefully.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> so dont question life itself,question what you should do in life.


EXACTLY!

That is the right question!

If you think that there is a possibility that God exist then don't just sit and ponder, go out and look for the truth about God. Whatever sounds like the best and most holy lifestyle without hypocrisy, is probably the truth. The bible says that God leads his people to him so I am not worried that all of Gods people will find the truth. Think about it, God knows everything, don't you think that he knows who his people are? If he wants you to know the truth then you will find it.

For the people that do not think there is a God, then what diffrence does anything make to you anyway. It is a fact that you will soon be dead, we all will be. Without God there is no hope for a resurrection so you people that don't want to believe in God have nothing to worry about. You will all surely be dead soon. Why concern yourselves with religious questions at all. Just live your life as best you can until your death. There is no reason to search for truth if you already know there is no God. Any effort at searching for truth will only end in failure because it is not possible to find truth without God.

The bottom line for all of us, no matter if we are religious or not, should be for us to try and live to best lifestyle possible. In my eyes the Jehovah's Witnesses are the people living the best and most holy lifestyle on earth but that lifestyle may not be fitting for everyone (some people would rather worship the sun, animals, money or women) I personally worship Jehovah. I suggest that we all let our heart guide us about these issues and try not to think so much about the doubts and questionings of our own existance. We already know most of the answers to the questions we ask anyway, we just like to doubt things for some reason. Whatever God that you find fitting in your eyes to worship then go and worship that God and stop doubting or questioning about things that don't matter or pertain to you and your God/God's.

Just figure out what lifestyle you want to live and then live it.


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## IvyGray (Feb 22, 2006)

Lostone, when I posted in response to Hakan in regards to this topic it had absolutely nothing to do with religion. That is because I am not religious. i.e. I do not believe in God. Yet I continually search for "life's answers" and will continue to do so. Your statement ..

"There is no reason to search for truth if you already know there is no God. Any effort at searching for truth will only end in failure because it is not possible to find truth without God."

.. is extremely ego-centric because it is based on your religion and spiritual beliefs. Guess what, for those of us who strongly DO NOT have religious beliefs, there is still a quest for knowledge. Religion makes zero sense to me, as much as it makes perfect sense to you. I posted on this topic because I felt that Hakan was right to say that "overthinking" could bring on a DP/DR state. That happens to me, which is why I related and was moved to post. I brought religion into the mix because I felt that it offers an "explanation" that has allowed humans to live their lives in content without a need to ruminate over those existential questions that bring on my DP. So yes, if I "found God" maybe it would cure my DP/DR. Blindly believing in _anything_ that would take away the feelings of existential angst would most likely help me.

However not all of us see things from your perspective, and though I fully respect your religious beliefs (because who knows what the truth may be, honestly) the way they play into your perspective on this issue cause a lack of credibility with me.

Please don't be offended since that's not my intention. I just wanted to point out that my thoughts on this topic had nothing to do with religion. And there is room for EVERYONE to search for truth, even for those people who don't share your beliefts.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> Please don't be offended since that's not my intention. I just wanted to point out that my thoughts on this topic had nothing to do with religion. And there is room for EVERYONE to search for truth, even for those people who don't share your beliefts.


I don't get offended but I know that I can be offensive sometimes just because people sometimes take things I say the wrong way.

IvyGray my point was that if you are already sure of yourself (totally) that there is no God at all, then why bother trying to figure out anything about reality? Think about it, if you were really sure of youself that death was reality and in another 200 years there will be nobody to even remember that you ever existed, then what are you thinking about. WHO CARES what reality might be if you don't believe that there is a God. I personally realized a long time ago that someone created this world, that realization brought up many questions about things such as, Gods true motives, Satans true motives, are we just an experiment that God is doing, exc, exc, exc... Now these questions are important to me because once I know the answers then I will know if I should be serving God or not and wich religion I should follow to make him happy. 
I don't understand why you would even trouble your short life in asking questions about existance if you did not believe in God. I simply don't understand the point. It is not that I disrespect you but I just don't understand why you would even trouble yourself if you truely don't believe in God, but as you pointed out yourself, you don't fully believe that there is no God because you said "because who knows what the truth may be, honestly" and by saying that you have just pointed out to me why you ask your questions about things. You see I do know what the truth is honestly. It is not just a blind faith to me, it is a factual reality that is why I no longer question Gods existance but only what his existance means and who he is personally. I would advise that you admit to yourself that you are unsure about the existance of God and that you start asking the question "what are the facts". You can find two sides of the story. One side is in the history books and science books and the other half is in the bible. These books are not in confliction if you do your homework. They are just two sides of the same story.

If you wish to believe in no God then fine. Stop wondering about things because it is a scientific fact that you will soon be dead and since you don't believe in a resurection you should get to living your life because it will be a short one. I have many years to waist because I believe that asking some of these questions is the most important thing that I could do with my time because they may mean my eternal life one day. 
I used to not believe in God myself, and in those days I simply did not care, I was a carefree person that did not ask any questions about god. I just don't understand why people that don't believe in God would even consern themselves with him, if the are being honest about their beliefs. Personally I think that many people that say they don't believe in God are actually just scared. Then again I am not a mind reader so I don't know.

I just don't understand why anyone that don't believe in God would even trouble themselves with thoughts about reality. It is a fact that we all die so why think about it if you don't believe in god. Soon you will be dead and at peace, so you have nothing to worry or ponder about. Just live your life however you see fit and then die. As for me, I will try to learn as much as I can about God and reality so that I can try to make up for some of the horrible things that I have done before I die, and maybe I will have a chance to live once again.


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## IvyGray (Feb 22, 2006)

Lostone, we're just on two different sides of the coin and will never agree. That's alright of course. In response to your thoughts on the reason why anyone who doesn't believe in God would bother questioning reality or existense .. that answer is simple. Some people decide to go with the "God theory" .. others feel that explanation isn't sufficient. I lean towards the science angle .. I need hard facts. And personally religion and science do not mesh for me at all. There are obviously many unexplained phenomena in our universe and I could spend my entire life learning and philosophizing about it all. However the idea of God would never play into that. Religion, to me, is not based in reality.

So you see, we're just on two ends of the same question. You have found religion to offer an explanation of "WHY" in regards to humanity and reality, and I have plenty of ideas of my own .. none of which involve God. We can agree to disagree :wink:


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

IvyGray I don't expect to convert you into my beliefs but if you have excepted death as your outcome in life and you have no hope of living forever in paradise earth as I have, then why do you even stress youself out about anything. I understand it is the nature of DP/DR to be philosophical about things but I would imagen that being very philosophical without the belief in God would be pretty painful. My philosophical thinking would have lead to my death if I was not absolutly sure that God existed. There is just to much evil in this world for me to be happy about anything if there was no God. I just don't see the point in being philosophical if you believe that we evolved from the apes. I think that I personally would become very evil if that was my philosophy because there would be no real reason for being good anyway. Even if there is no God I would still strive to become a Jehovah's Witness because there teachings is the only good that I see in this world and therefore it don't matter to me even if I did have proof that God did not exist, I would still follow there teachings because everything else is evil in my eyes. IvyGray I will agree to disagree with you for now but I hope that in the future you change your thinking about things. I have become scared to death of the philosophy of this world and I know that I could easily become a very evil monster if I were to let myself believe the philosophy of this world. I would kill myself before I would choose a lifestyle that would be what I consider to be worldly. I just hate evil to much and the only real good that I see is in the teachings in the bible and therefore the bible has become my philosophy in life. Anything that is against the bible's teachings is now against me.


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

It is in surrendering to the Mystery that we find the peace that the Mystery has placed in our hearts.

That peace is always within us. Our connection with the Mystery is always with us. All we need to do is let go of the things and ideas that we have covered it up with.

We need only to surrender to the Mystery.

We need to give up our "false gods," one of which is our capacity to comprehend the Mystery in terms of human rationality. We cannot. We are deprived of peace as long as we wish to be the Mystery and refuse to accept that we are not.

I've been free of anxiety-induced DP and anxiety since January 29 and I'm on the same low dosage of Zoloft (50 mg) that I was on when my anxiety started back in May of 2005. What I've relayed above in my "preaching" is how I got there. I'm Catholic, but the same premises apply to anyone -- whether they believe in God or believe in nature only (whatever that might mean).

There's an old saying, "Let go and let God." Even if you don't believe in God, you could try just letting go in a really serious way and allowing the Mystery to guide you into all truth.

Best wishes to all!

Soj


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

Hey Sojo, I was thinking that Martinelv banned you or something when he became a mod :lol: .



> whether they believe in God or believe in nature only (whatever that might mean).


I think that Haken is a buddhist, I don't know but I could see a buddhist calling nature God or God nature.

Religion aside, it is good advise to calm down about the anxious thinking and try not to be so extream with the philosophical thoughts. I think that was the main message of this thread and I agree that we all need to "chill" a bit with the philosophical thinking.


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## 1A (Aug 12, 2004)

Welcome back, Sojourner!

I hope you post more often.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Chilling out. Now there's an idea.

It's not good to indulge too much in philosophy/religion. I came to the point where I relalised that, if practise diligently, my religious beliefs were extreme and would only conflict with the general business of being a person.

I also started to notice that most of the people who practised it heavily, ie. those who lived in religious centre itself, were obsessive compulsive in their approach to everyday things. I didn't think that was a good road to go down, having had experience of that myself.

All in moderation - that's the phrase that springs to mind.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> Chilling out. Now there's an idea.
> 
> It's not good to indulge too much in philosophy/religion. I came to the point where I relalised that, if practise diligently, my religious beliefs were extreme and would only conflict with the general business of being a person.
> 
> ...


I don't see anything wrong with following every scripture in the bible to the "T" but we should stop asking so many "what if" questions. I know many people that are very happy to be serving God in a very strict mannor but they just don't ask so many "what if" questions. It is because of the crazy questions that all of us with DP/DR ask that can drive us nutts. I think that we all just worry to much about things.

There is nothing wrong with thinking about spiritual and religious things as long as you do it calmly and don't get to paranoid or anxious about anything.


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

Thanks, Lostone and 1A!

How's everyone doing?

The way I see it, if your faith makes you "worse," it's not real faith.

I don't come here regularly like I used to, but every so often I think of you guys and wonder how everyone is. I think especially about spaceplex (was that his name?).

No, Martin didn't ban me; I just didn't come around much. At first I did, but then time went on and I just forgot about it. <sniff>

I'm pretty sure, and so is my psychiatrist, that it was the psychotherapy AND God that helped me (and continues to help me). But primarily it was surrendering to God and asking for His peace -- even when I wasn't sure I believed in Him anymore. But in my core, in my deepest self, I believed, and God helped me.

I've had a few moments of anxiety -- but nothing at all like what I had before, where I was taking Ativan twice a day, and sometimes three times. I never took more than 1 mg per day, but I was still having bad, bad panic without the drug. I haven't had a single Ativan since January 28, 2006.

It's so odd, really, because the Zoloft dosage is the same as when I got the anxiety to start with. God and psychotherapy. A great partnership.

To all the new folks, I hope you all find your way -- it's possible. Depersonalization and anxiety do not have to haunt you for the rest of your life.

Don't be afraid of being scared. Find out WHY you are scared and deal with it directly in therapy of some sort. See a competent physician for a diagnosis, and if you aren't being understood or listened to, don't settle for that.

In the end, even though I believe God is there, it was I, Sojourner, who "saved" myself by seeking God's help.

What is going to save you all is already within you -- but you have to stop being afraid of yourself! You are, in fact, the only one who can save you. And you do that by going to the only source who can truly save you and who truly loves you.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

I am pretty much cured now Sojourner but now that your back on here I am starting to feel DP/DR again for some reason :? .

Just kidding LoL :lol:

I hope your doing well.

By the way, I still have the color blue and you can have it back now becuase I have now found a rainbow  .


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

Hey, lostone, I just added more ramblings to my first message.

I don't remember "blue" -- what was that?


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

blue Is a color you gave me a long time ago remember.

I only had black and white and so you gave me your blue?

Well now I have a rainbow. 

I feel sorry for you older people.

I hope I never get old.

My avatar used to be the sun, just in case you forgot who I was :? .


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## freesong (Dec 26, 2005)

Sojourner, I really like your post. I am praying and have not given up on God's help. I just really know that He is there and waiting for me to come through this tunnel and helping guide me along the way. I could have not learned some very important lessons without this journey and I truly believe that He will not leave me in the midst of it. I pray more from my head than my heart as I feel nothing now but I do pray eveyday. Thanks for your input and Lost One's as well. God is real and good and in control. We will never be alone!!! freesong


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

freesong said:


> Sojourner, I really like your post. I am praying and have not given up on God's help. I just really know that He is there and waiting for me to come through this tunnel and helping guide me along the way. I could have not learned some very important lessons without this journey and I truly believe that He will not leave me in the midst of it. I pray more from my head than my heart as I feel nothing now but I do pray eveyday. Thanks for your input and Lost One's as well. God is real and good and in control. We will never be alone!!! freesong


Hi, freesong! Glad my post resonated with you. Hey, isn't Person3 from OKLA also? How's she doing?

I felt exactly the same when I was surrendering -- no real feeling until I began to feel His presence and His love. You sound quite strong in your faith, freesong, a lot stronger than I did! I know that as you progress you will become even stronger. I know that I did, and others before me on this journey told me that I would, and they were right.

I will pray for you, freesong, and hope you'll pray for me.

Best,

Sojourner


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