# The Dragon In My Garage



## Revelation_old (Aug 9, 2004)

The Dragon In My Garage by Carl Sagan

"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"

Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floates in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick."

And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

The only thing you've really learned from my insistence that there's a dragon in my garage is that something funny is going on inside my head. You'd wonder, if no physical tests apply, what convinced me. The possibility that it was a dream or a hallucination would certainly enter your mind. But then, why am I taking it so seriously? Maybe I need help. At the least, maybe I've seriously underestimated human fallibility.

Imagine that, despite none of the tests being successful, you wish to be scrupulously open-minded. So you don't outright reject the notion that there's a fire-breathing dragon in my garage. You merely put it on hold. Present evidence is strongly against it, but if a new body of data emerge you're prepared to examine it and see if it convinces you. Surely it's unfair of me to be offended at not being believed; or to criticize you for being stodgy and unimaginative-- merely because you rendered the Scottish verdict of "not proved."

Imagine that things had gone otherwise. The dragon is invisible, all right, but footprints are being made in the flour as you watch. Your infrared detector reads off-scale. The spray paint reveals a jagged crest bobbing in the air before you. No matter how skeptical you might have been about the existence of dragons--to say nothing about invisible ones--you must now acknowledge that there's something here, and that in a preliminary way it's consistent with an invisible, fire-breathing dragon.

Now another scenario: Suppose it's not just me. Suppose that several people of your acquaintance, including people who you're pretty sure don't know each other, all tell you that they have dragons in their garages--but in every case the evidence is maddeningly elusive. All of us admit we're disturbed at being gripped by so odd a conviction so ill-supported by the physical evidence. None of us is a lunatic. We speculate about what it would mean if invisible dragons were really hiding out in garages all over the world, with us humans just catching on. I'd rather it not be true, I tell you. But maybe all those ancient European and Chinese myths about dragons weren't myths at all.

Gratifyingly, some dragon-size footprints in the flour are now reported. But they're never made when a skeptic is looking. An alternative explanation presents itself. On close examination it seems clear that the footprints could have been faked. Another dragon enthusiast shows up with a burnt finger and attributes it to a rare physical manifestation of the dragon's fiery breath. But again, other possibilities exist. We understand that there are other ways to burn fingers besides the breath of invisible dragons. Such "evidence"--no matter how important the dragon advocates consider it--is far from compelling. Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion.

--

What do you think of this?


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## DreamLife (Sep 16, 2007)

He hit the nail on the head, even if my interpretation isn't what he intended--"just be open." The moment we close our minds to anything is the moment that we choose to remain exactly the way that we are at that moment. Open-mindedness is the absolute key to growth (at least in my humble opinion).

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is comtempt prior to investigation."

--Herbert Spencer


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

The dragon is real to the people who can 'see' it


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2007)

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## Guest (Oct 11, 2007)

DraGOD yea I feel ya, how the hell did humanity get so stupid. Look at this forum, most people are intelligent, cognetively working b ut yet retarded / delusional at the same time....
It's insane, it's like the inviscible pink unicorn...

It's pink, but invicisble and it exist. disprove me. Lol and the funny thing is all of you is like "Well god is something entirely diffetn" HELL NO it isnt. ITS EXACTLY THE SAME.
Unicorn is actually more truth worthy after all we see horses and animals with horns and maybe just maybe a horse fucked a pelican and they got pink horses the nit fucked a rhino and WOAH a pink unicorn, then somehow it stole one of thos "CLOAKING COATHS" Japan invented... Who knows...

All I know is that God = Delusion until it's proven (tried for 500 thousand years and yet noone has done it and the more we learn about real world the more we know it doesnt exist and it never did and never will)


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

The more we learn about the "real world" the more distanced we are from the real world.

You can't discredit what happens inside your own head. Doing so is what brings on DP. Continuing to deny subjective experience makes DP worse. Have fun


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2007)

I'm not saying tht but on the other hand idolizing your subjective experience is what leads to solipsism/deraelization 

So here's a problem.

The simple and only proven solution is to live by objectivism:
OBJECTIVE REALITY IS INDEPENDANT ON THE MIND/CONSCIOUS beings.
We are having a subjective experience of the primary objective world/reality.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Copeful said:


> I'm not saying tht but on the other hand idolizing your subjective experience is what leads to solipsism/deraelization
> 
> So here's a problem.
> 
> ...


Your whole emotional life is subjective so if you want to live without emotions ie in DP then try to live life by some sort of objective reality, but good luck because it is a life of misery without meaning.

Im not even sure such thing exists as objective reality anyway


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2007)

Lol u didnt listen to what I said? we have a subjective experience of objective reality.

If objective reality didnt exist your consciousness wouldnt either, so do you exist? yea.
Why? cause objective reality/nature over billions of years evolved and one of it's works was a baby whom got conscious when the brain got enough neurons in the brain growing as a fetus, that baby was you

Ofcourse you gotta have a meaning, everything is subjective when it comes to humans, but objective reality dont give a shit and can wipe you out whenever..


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

What is this objective reality that you speak of, if nobody experiences it then how do you know it exists?

maybe all there is is lots of subjective realities


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2007)

stupid motherfucker I SAID SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE OF THE OBJECTIVE ABSOLUTE PRIMARY REALITY.

No, omg ur stupid ur so fucknr etarded u should sign up for kindergarden.

Ur not only experiencing objective reality UR PART OF IT. omg everything is objective reality, Thin kseriously u got ur own universe? ego meganomaliac manic

Since u havent passed age 8 yet I'll give you a simple example

both of us looks at a picture of a angel giving salvation, I think it's ridiculous, u think it's marvelous

WHAT HAPPENED HERE?

DRUM ROLL

THE PICTURE WAS OBJECTIVE, our perception/experience subjective DUM DUM! Now go tell ur 5th grade friends uve learned something most learn after 18months


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

OK brainbox I was asking you to explain what the OBJECTIVE PRIMARY REALITY actually is and was questioning if it actually exists and how you know, but you are obviously so retarded you cant grasp what I was asking. Are you talking about the reality which science describes or the reality that you describe because I dont think that you will get two people to agree on what objective reality is so does it exist at all?

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NUMPTY

edit: you day the picture is objective but objective to who, if there isnt a perceiver then then there is no reality, and if there is a perceiver then the reality is immediatley subjective, - get that in your small head of yours did you ?


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2007)

Jeez, well babies learn at age 1.5 that objective reality is primary U got some catching up to do

No you'll never find 2 people who percieve reality the same, true cause our lives and brains are completely unique.

Objective reality is what u cant change unless you can hael me right now by your thoughts, reality is objective and ur mind got no effect. Therefore objective reality.

We are like cameras walking around PERCIEVING reality, there is no subjective reality.

unless ur a psychotic dude hallucinating all the time, then ur kind of "living" in a subjective reality, but then again its just a product of ur brain, so its not real therefore not reality


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Ok genius, how do you know that there is reality without perception? and how do you get perception without it being subjective?


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Whats funny is that you think that I dont understand what you are saying but I used to think and argue exactly what you are arguing, but what you call objective reality is just like saying there are certain rules in the universe like 1 + 1 = 2 , but in terms of actual human experience where reality actually matters and where it is even worth talking about there is no such thing as objective reality.


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2007)

So since ur god, why speak to me? I don't exist, remember Mr Solipsist


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Copeful said:


> So since ur god, why speak to me? I don't exist, remember Mr Solipsist


I dont know what you mean by this I never said you didnt exist, infact I have been saying the opposite you are the one saying you are just a bunch of chemicals.

Many of my views arent even based on spirituality or religion, you should look as the role of the observer in quantum physics and quantum mechanics if you want to grasp what I am saying. Everything I have said is backed up by advanced science

Google *Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle*


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2007)

Trust me I've investigated quantum physics A LOT and the hypothesises have been broken down by skeptics and debunked.
YES observing interfereces with quantum particles because of the way we need to observe them (light = photons) etc.
Nothing to do with consciousness, same would happen if a dead robot observed it.

yes I'm a bunch of bones flesh chemicals, and I exist as a HUMAN BEING LIVING ORGANISM.
So you think because we dont got a soul we're less worth?


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Well all scientific theories has its proponents and critics and as far as I know it hasnt been debunked and has everything to do with consciousness and to be honest I cant be arsed to argue any more because I want to go out.

I dont know for sure if I have a soul but I am able to observe myself and this observation is what I call my soul, I dont mean that it is anything magical (well not more magical than the rest of life) but what ever "I" am I believe I have intelligence and a certain amount of free will, I believe much of "me" has been covered up by my family and society conditionings but underneath that i have an "I" which is deeper than my ego and personality and isnt just relliant upon chemical reactions. To believe otherwise is horrific in my view because it means that you are just a reaction and have no free will or determination.


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2007)

Not nessacarily if you raed into quantum mechanics and chaos theory.
To you as a human it has NO difference if your choices are 99% influenced by chemicals/genes whatever, you can still enjoy life.

What I'm saying is that the "I" is just as much worth if it's a magical soul or as science / evidence starts to show completely natural.
Your still responsible for your actions, I suggest you read http://www.naturalism.org
REALLY good site, even got a "spirituality" page on how to be spiritual naturalisticly...


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2007)

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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Please do Spirit, that sounds awesome 

Anyway, there's no such thing as "objective reality". Things can only exist if there is an entity to observe them. Everyone's perception of reality is different. This means that there are roughly 6 billion unique realities on planet earth, not including the consciousness of each animal, plant, rock etc. etc.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2007)

HAHAAHAH things cannot exist if not observed are you absurdivly deluded,
PLEASE GET THE FUCK OUTTA THIS FORUM you can seriously hurt people with this crazy thoughts.

NO PERCEPTION OF REALITY CAN EXIST WITHOUT CONSCIOUS BEINGS true...

STOP playing scientist and get the fuck out of here please. ur insane get help or atleast stop trying to make people as insane as you.

The objective world is independant of the mind/consciousness HELL mind/consciousness is not even a thing. jesus.....

There was no observers 13.7billion years ago, yet existance existed, no humans until 60 million years ago, how would life appear if it didnt exist.
Ur insane fuck you seriously u are trying to make people insane just cuz u are FUCK U

Read some Ayn Rand and serious science and not pseudoscience THE SECRET who was disproven the other day
The mind cannot interfere with quantum particles.... thats a myth GET THE FUCK OVER IT.....

Existance exist, its primary, ur consciousness is NOTHING but neurons firing off in your flesh brain

OR better yet lets disprove it, put a camera and microphone out in the forest and come back the day later and see if existance dissapeared Good luck is a scientific experiment u can test 1000000000000times and it does not involve a conscious observer

Rock consciousness? LOLOLOLOLOLOL OMG PLEASE tell me u are a molested little kid or I cannot feel sorry for you


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2007)

*Puts hand up*... I'll have a pint of what Copeful has had. *Slowly nods while smirking*.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2007)

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## Guest (Oct 16, 2007)

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## Guest (Oct 16, 2007)

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## Guest (Oct 16, 2007)

pink unicorns has never been observed, a television exist sorry, mental hospital time


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2007)

Excuse me, you're the one who thinks your television exists all on its own, does it talk to you?

Who's having more fun, who's happiest copefull? Despite all of her "delusions" and her not facing "reality" who feels out of reality- not me.

I know I'm slightly "crazy", blimley that's hardly revelation of the century. I actually fucking love it, I thrive off of it, I'm happy.


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2007)

Yea yea, having sex with children is fine cause both enjoy it? Ur logic is flawed =\
I rather live in a society who believes in reality and not fairytales based on human emotions


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2007)

Copeful said:


> having sex with children is fine cause both enjoy it?


*Hits Copeful with a newspaper* Bad boy! :evil:


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Copeful said:


> HAHAAHAH things cannot exist if not observed are you absurdivly deluded,
> PLEASE GET THE flower* OUTTA THIS FORUM you can seriously hurt people with this crazy thoughts.


This is the spirituality forum and I'm talking about spirituality. Hmmm....



> NO PERCEPTION OF REALITY CAN EXIST WITHOUT CONSCIOUS BEINGS true...


Consciousness is not only in the heads of humans. Everything that is also has a unique conscious focus of its own 



> STOP playing scientist and get the flower* out of here please. ur insane get help or atleast stop trying to make people as insane as you.


I am trained as a scientist, so if I ever talk about science I'm not playing  Yes I am "insane" thanks and similarly to Spirit I wouldn't want it any other way. I'm not trying to make people anything, its your choice how you want to take what I say. You are the one being hostile here.



> There was no observers 13.7billion years ago, yet existance existed, no humans until 60 million years ago, how would life appear if it didnt exist.


First up, like I said the universe itself has consciousness and so would be observing itself, hence subjective experience. Second, how do you even know anything existed 13.7 billion years ago? All we have are records that are real to us NOW, but we can never experience 13.7 billion years ago. Well, not if we let our ego stay in control anyway 



> Read some Ayn Rand and serious science and not pseudoscience THE SECRET who was disproven the other day.


Can you give us a reference for where The Secret was disproven? Like I said, I agree with some things in The Secret but overall its watered down new age ideas and its not the whole story.



> OR better yet lets disprove it, put a camera and microphone out in the forest and come back the day later and see if existance dissapeared Good luck is a scientific experiment u can test 1000000000000times and it does not involve a conscious observer


Yes it does, because you are a conscious observer listening to the recording, which is also a concious observer in a way.



> Rock consciousness? LOLOLOLOLOLOL OMG PLEASE tell me u are a molested little kid or I cannot feel sorry for you


Nope, no molestation here. Spare your pity, it does me no good 

By the way, some food for thought (Quick google search about Quantum Physics):

http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Physics-D ... iverse.htm
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~sai/holoUni.html


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Spirit said:


> The world is made up of five elements ,earth,water,fire,air and space.
> These are called [the first four anyway]ABSOLUTE REALITYS because we can actually experience them.earth corrosponds to hardness or softness,water is cohersion,what holds everything together,fire is hot or cold,because "cold" is just the behaviour of fire.air is movment.These elements and their corrosponding realitys are all we actually experience that DO NOT DEPEND UPON OUR MIND.


That's a really cool idea actually and I've never thought about it like that.

Mind describing the space element?


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2007)

cecil i cant descibe the space element........if you can i would love to hear it. :wink:

Spirit


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

I can't, I've only heard about it in passing 

By the way: "Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. Merily, merily, merily, merily, *life is but a dream*!" 

Knowledge isn't only passed down in fairy tales. And children are a lot more clued in than we give them credit for, hehe.


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2007)

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