# Is there any antispiritual/exspiritual people here?



## Guest

Is there any antispiritual/exspiritual people here?

I was fooled into the whole "DP = enlightenment" and was fooled by "enlightened beings" who said this was the meaning of life eliminating yourself and becoming one with all.
It made me completely delusional and Ive felt worse and worse ever since I started this "Path to god(hell).

I started getting into spirituality as a hope in finding myself, regain sanity, find god and meaning of life and got all 4 opposites.
Now Im stuck feeling empty, my mind is in a constant pain feel like its just going to explode any second.
I feel I got no more personality from all this "kill your ego", and have I seen God? No Ive had weird experiences but they can just be products of imagination and obsession right?(I suffer OCD)

Now all I think about is karma reincarnation and enlightenment. All which there is no proof of.
Ive come to the conclusion this is not a path for me, there is no god, I want to go back to evolution. Im just a normal human like everyone, there is no cosmic consciousness, you are just your body and mind.

Is there anyone whos been into religion like this? the shit with spirituality is that its so complex that once youve got into it its SOOOOO much to unlearn and relearn to become normal again.
anyone got any good ways to regain sanity and ego?
I mean more rebuilding the ego and regain my personality(if its even possible?)

Id love to hear some real skeptisicm on why Hindu/buddhism is wrong and completely wrong and no truth so all atheists and skeptisst please help me here.

I feel like such a failure at life after all this, its like I got no self respect, feel worth anything and has spent the last 2 weeks praying to God to kill me.
Im so sorry for coming back here afte leaving here in such confidence I had found truth:/
Im also supposed to start school in a few weeks and got no chance of even getting myself together enough to walk out hte door and meet my friends anymore. Im a wreck and got NO self esteem.
As if DP/DR wasnt enough, my only message to all of you, never ge into spirituality, itll seem good fora w hile but if your artional mind comes into play and u see some hard evidence its all made belief the brickwall is hard to hit.

I just want to feel normal again, seperated from the rest of the world, a individual, a person, a human, a being.


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## Pablo

MentallyIll said:


> Id love to hear some real skeptisicm on why Hindu/buddhism is wrong and completely wrong and no truth so all atheists and skeptisst please help me here.


I have looked into spirituality a lot too and it can definately be used to avoid the real problems of life and make your problems worse. I have been looking into a lot of the issues you mention and the conclusion I have come to which is verified by most of the Western spiritual teachers is that you have to balance and integrate your ego before you even begin to try to transcend it with Buddhist or Hindu practice. What this means is that you have to root out all of your insecurities, negative beliefs, supressed anger and sexuality, eliminate all self hatred and develop a healthy confidence, self esteem and gain a certain amount of mastery of the world before most spiritual practice is going to help your life.

Authors like Jack Kornfield, Ken Wilber and Rajneesh talk about this a lot, that Eastern spirituality does not account for Western psyche problems and does not really hold the keys to solving these problems, so in other words it is higher level practice and we need to work on our foundations before we enter into it.

The best way to get over it if you have delved too deep into it is to just be in groups of people and friends as much as possible and just do normal thiings, you will soon slip back into a more regular way of being. Talking to a therapist could help. I know it is very difficult making the step of going out with groups of friends but it is worth the effort and you might be surprised at how quickly you get into their way of thinking. You shouldnt feel like a failure, I expect you will learn a great deal from your experiences and grow from them and that is all that matters.


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## Guest

Thanks, yeah but I doubt the whole reincarnation process really, Jiddhu Krishnamurti said there was no reincarnation Rajaneesh(Osho) said there was no soul or reincarnation.
Ill try to regain myself again.


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## Pablo

My thoughts about reincarnation are that unless you have any memories of previous lives you have no basis to believe reincarnation other than other peoples word so its not even worth thinking about because you can never get any definate answers. I have heard many people say that the whole reincarnation theory is a bad thing for a person because it stops you from living your life to the fullest because you always think that you will have another life to do what you want to do. But then I suppose you are less anxious about making something of this this life so it could be beneficial in that respect.


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## Guest

Agreed and I feel like the whole spiritual practice is waste of life really, imagine if its ALLLLLLLL pure ullshit and madeup of the mind (read: God part of the brain) and then your 70 years old and have spent all your life seeking a imagination.
Ok life might seem pointless since there is no god and supernatural but to me nature is beautiful, eternal life isnt really something to lust for anyway when you see how messedup life is at times


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## PPPP

I'm sorry that you're feeling bad. 



MentallyIll said:


> I was fooled into the whole "DP = enlightenment" and was fooled by "enlightened beings" who said this was the meaning of life eliminating yourself and becoming one with all.
> It made me completely delusional and Ive felt worse and worse ever since I started this "Path to god(hell).


The thing is that you have to stay grounded somehow. 
DP/DR was never the same as enlightenment. I don't believe that it's the same thing as 'no self' it's a confusion of language.
If you follow a tradition you need a teacher. 
I think it's easy to take it to the wrong place if you have nobody to check you. 
Or if you don't listen to the people who try to check you.

I'm not going to disagree with you because I can see where you're coming from and you're justified in being upset.

It's probably a really good thing for you to step away and get some perspective.


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## Rozanne

Hi MI, 
It can be disturbing to thinking about interconnectivity I find, so I just remember that it is unnecessary to think about it - I can get on with life as if it does not exist. To take refuge in duality, you only have to shift your focus to it. I find that it changes my mental state rapidly and gets rid of my dissociation. I've always found that. The things I actually think do seem to effect on my mental state. That is why I believe that, even if it is in the temporal lobes, there is a lot you can do with your mental power - and autonomy - to get over this disorder.
Yours truely
Roz


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## Lynch_mob

I'm laughing right now. If you can't see god within yourself, you don't have to understand it but reconize it, if you don't.. I don't know what to say, God is a part of you. God is just a name, like tree or cat... tree and cat both have meanings but god's meaning is so pure and is only something we can fully understand until we die. It's something we need to hold ourselves together , god can be anything, but more specifically it's that one thing that we need to continue living here.


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## brandon is not taken

Lynch_mob said:


> I'm laughing right now. If you can't see god within yourself, you don't have to understand it but reconize it, if you don't.. I don't know what to say, God is a part of you. God is just a name, like tree or cat... tree and cat both have meanings but god's meaning is so pure and is only something we can fully understand until we die. It's something we need to hold ourselves together , god can be anything, but more specifically it's that one thing that we need to continue living here.


Why are you laughing? Because somebodies existential quest lead them in a different direction then you? that is pretty close minded...

If "gods meaning" is only something we can understand when we die, then why would you laugh at somebody else for thier beliefs?


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## Guest

The word "god" is another word for "matter"... although it might relate more towards "dark matter".


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## Rozanne

Dear MentallyIll, 
May I share some personal thoughts with you on religion and spirituality?

What you are dealing with - if I interpret your original post correctly - is submersion into belief systems which you feel are having a bad effect on you.

There are two things you can do: renounce religion or denounce it. Or you could just not think about it and be at peace.

How? You may ask.

Well - to ramble on about personal experiences - I went to a Quaker's meeting today and experienced the lack of need for all of these belief systems and conformity.

It is acceptable to believe in nothing much, but still know yourself as spiritual.

Perhaps this is out of place on this board? Admittedly I'm not sure I would have found this advice useful myself a while back. But at this present time, there is something very nourishing in attending a non-creed spiritual fellowship, just sitting back non-discriminantly and hearing people say nice things, relating to life in a practical or esoteric way - spontaneously. No comforming to dogma, no expectation of conforming to dogma, no arguments about dogma.

I have expended a lot of energy arguing about political/spritual concepts. In the end, God loves you, whether God exists or not. It is an experience, and a very positive one that can't be explained away by with theories of karma or enlightenment. There is somewhere inside the self that thing some people would say is a light or a spark. I express it as an idea, for sure, but one that makes sense in other ways than merely intellectual. Find the truth within, for the soul peace is preferable to answers. Rozanne


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## Guest

Thanks guys helps a lot.

I quit religion all together for many reasons, I sought for god in a quest to find the true self, God, peace of mind and meaning with life
Felt like I lst myself, Satan, mess of mind and zero meaning with life, actually much less than before...

One can chose to believe in God on faith or deal with death and see there is no God.
Depends ofcourse what you want to call God.

Laugh all you want: http://www.godpartofthebrain.com and tell me again what God is.

(dont visit those sites if you want to believe in God)


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## Rozanne

Even if God-experiences are related to part of the brain, it doesn't take away the awe of statistics and the fact that even on the physical level, life is a miracle.

Even on the physical level there is an undeniable interconnectivity between things. There is differentiation as well, and you have autonomy.

But what is a personality and human body other than a very complex organism....

I find science far more depersonalising than religion, strangely.


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## Guest

ofcourse life is a miracle but it doesnt need a god..
fact is that love and personality exist either way.
Just dont need to be religious I believed so too I felt life was pointless without any GOD and deeper meaning but it really isnt.
most atheist I know is more happy than christians

either way I suffer OCD and once I started really believing in the soul I obsessed about losing it or be possessed is this possible in your religious views?


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## Guest

I'm with you on this one MentallyIll... *nods*.


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## CECIL

MentallyIll said:


> I feel I got no more personality from all this "kill your ego"


A big contradiction in terms. The point of "killing your ego" is that you lose your personality, or everything that makes you an individual in the current mainstream meaning of the word.

But like Pablo said, its no good trying to "kill your ego" if you have a lot of issues already. Doing that just leads into a battle between ego, which is only feeding it more. You need to heal your issues first, then you can decide if you want to move onto the more advanced concepts.



> the shit with spirituality is that its so complex that once youve got into it its SOOOOO much to unlearn and relearn to become normal again.


It doesn't have to be complex and you don't have to stress over it either. But I'd say that if you are finding it too complex and its creating too much stress it might be a good idea to put it on the back burner for a while.



> I mean more rebuilding the ego and regain my personality(if its even possible?)


I think any sort of therapy will do this for you. As far as I understand it, its about carving out a space for yourself to exist. It goes hand in hand with deciding which beliefs are yours and which you've taken on from other people. What emotion is yours and what's not etc. etc.



> I feel like such a failure at life after all this, its like I got no self respect, feel worth anything and has spent the last 2 weeks praying to God to kill me.


Try not to beat yourself up. We all fall down, make mistakes etc. There's no shame in trying out a belief system and discarding it if it doesn't fit you, people do it all the time.



> As if DP/DR wasnt enough, my only message to all of you, never ge into spirituality, itll seem good fora w hile but if your artional mind comes into play and u see some hard evidence its all made belief the brickwall is hard to hit.


There's no hard evidence either way, there is only subjective experience. And fuck my rational mind, its been controlling me for too long 



> I just want to feel normal again, seperated from the rest of the world, a individual, a person, a human, a being.


This is a very powerful intent. Good luck


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## PPPP

I think that you are assuming that faith is delusional. 
I have my eyes wide open and I'm not afraid of challanges.
I'm not afraid of ceasing to exist either.
And I visit sites like those and I see the zeal of the convert and the fanatic. It's just the zeal of the convert to atheism.
It doesn't shake me. 
because that's not the basis of my faith.

I personally don't care what others believe. I don't need for everyone around me to be the same as me.
So if you aren't a spiritual person that's fine.
But please don't assume that those of us who are people of faith are somehow delusional or that we're closing our eyes to reality.
I can see why atheism is a conclusion some people would come to but please remember that that is not the only sane choice and respect those with whom you disagree.

If plain good manners don't keep you from being rude about other's beliefs then try to remember that religion also does help people as much as it can hurt people.
Some do use religion to control and hurt people but faith helps many and religious people do many good things. So please try to be polite.



MentallyIll said:


> One can chose to believe in God on faith or deal with death and see there is no God.
> Depends ofcourse what you want to call God.
> 
> Laugh all you want: http://www.godpartofthebrain.com and tell me again what God is.
> 
> (dont visit those sites if you want to believe in God)


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## falling_free

I have no time for organized relegion

books thousands of years old that people still read into and believe to be true??? doesn't make sense to me.

For me the god portrayed in the various scriptures is like some big brother dictator type fellow :lol: , in that he/she/it/whatever demands belief otherwise your punished in HELL!!! :roll:

It all based on fear!!!! Do this or be punished, be 'one of the herd'.

I think it's time we threw the bible back where it belongs, THE DUSTBIN OF HISTORY!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## falling_free




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## Dreamer

Should this thread be in the Spiritual Forum?

Cheers,
D
Too much time on my hands. Didn't read the whole bit though. Trouble sleeping at night.


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## PPPP

:x ahem.. I said please be polite!

falling_free were you born in a barn or just concieved in one?
I'd hate to say you're intolerant and prejudiced but.. :roll:

BTW If people didn't use religion as an excuse to kill each other then they'd just use another excuse. 
Stalin for example had no problem killing people without using religion as an excuse. To those people religion is just a tool to get what they want from people. That's not real faith.

moving this thread is a stellar idea


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## falling_free

Layla said:


> :x ahem.. I said please be polite!
> 
> falling_free were you born in a barn or just concieved in one?
> I'd hate to say you're intolerant and prejudiced but.. :roll:
> 
> BTW If people didn't use religion as an excuse to kill each other then they'd just use another excuse.
> Stalin for example had no problem killing people without using religion as an excuse. To those people religion is just a tool to get what they want from people. That's not real faith.
> 
> moving this thread is a stellar idea


Wasn't JESUS born in a barn!!! So how if your a believer could you possibily use that as an insult????

Ignorant ?? No , Predujuce - Well Maybe just against ancient superstitions that constantly hold the human race back. Galileo for daring suggest that the earth revolved roud the sun , stem cell research etc etc.

Don't get me wrong I think its your right to believe whatever you want to believe, im not some kind of bible burning satanic black mettaller :twisted: but don't go calling me ignorant and predujuce because I hold the opposite opinion to you.

As for Stalin, Stalin was using 'supposed' communism (stalinism) as an excuse which in itself is kind of relgious like IMO in that it exhalts the collective or a cult of personality of a particular leader over a god.


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## PPPP

I said *intolerant* not ignorant.
And it wasn't because you disagreed with me but because you were being rude. 
that's all. 
I couldn't care less what you believe. It's none of my business.


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## falling_free

Well if I came across as rude I apologise, I haven't been able to sleep all night so im agitated.


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## PPPP

's alright.
actually that was pretty funny



> Wasn't JESUS born in a barn!!! So how if your a believer could you possibily use that as an insult????


It's a southernism like 'beat you like a red-headed stepchild. :lol: 
so that didn't even occur to me.

and I'm not the sort of 'believer' that you're probably thinking of. 
I don't believe I've ever been called that before. :lol:


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## Martinelv

> I'm laughing right now.


How very christian of you, if that is indeed the flavour of religion you have faith in. I can just see the smile. "Pity the poor atheists". How many time have I seen that?

Sigh. Look at Gaza right now. All in the name of religion, give or take. Utter, utter, utter madness.

Yeah - moved to the spirital thread.


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## Dreamer

Falling Free said:


> As for Stalin, Stalin was using 'supposed' communism (stalinism) as an excuse which in itself is kind of relgious like IMO in that it exhalts the collective or a cult of personality of a particular leader over a god.


Yes, Stalinism was a religion. It is simply a set of beliefs separate from Faith, Spirituality, God. And we do worship MEN. THIS is a serious problem, but I don't think you can "remove" it from humanity.

There are always leaders and followers. Frequently people want pat answers to things.

*The thing is though Falling, is that you are combining an attack on Spiritual Religions and Political/Secular religions. They are not the same. And neither are always corrupt. And some are terribly corrupt.
*

As was noted before, last night you and I had it out over what I interpreted as your being rude and insensitive. And I also find the cartoon insensitive. I also don't give a hoot what you believe in, but you are rude and I'm not the only person here who has said that.

Last night I was also crabby, and crabby with you, I'm sorry.

*One needn't be rude while expressing one's opinion. As noted, you'd be fired from a job, kicked out of a classroom, removed for a restaurant if you come across in real life as you do on the board is all.

Again, isn't what you say or believe, it's how you say it.*

And again, as Squeaky Fromme said (unfortunately one of the Manson gang -- talk about a cult leader, lol) "If you ain't got no philosophy, you ain't got no rules."

And she was right. I don't appreciate it that she was a murderer, OMG, but she felt her "philosophy" was justified. Of course I find it hideous.

But it's true, none of us can get through life without a set of general principles, based on some philosophy of life. Goals, how to attain them, etc. But many, many people don't give a hoot, and that leads to disintegration of society on many levels. Gang members who believe that to prove manhood means kiling as many people as possible -- well I don't subscribe to that philosophy.

There is logic in "The 10 Commandments" as I've posted before. Simply logical. I do not include (in my beliefs "Thou shalt have no other God's before me" -- graven images and what not) -- but the point of that if I'm not mistaken was a desire to unite the Jews -- to take them away from paganism and other unsavory religions, in the opinion of those who wrote those words.

*Isn't the rest completely logical? Rituals unite and strengthen a community.*

Taking the Sabbath as a ritual. A peaceful uniting ritual to enforce the strength of the community, the family, and add to survival of the community.

Honor they father and mother (I've had a problem with my parents) but again, reinforcement of family, and of discipline, respect for elders.

Thou shalt not kill -- exact translation murder.

Thou shalt not commit adultery -- well we do it all the time, but it sure causes a helluva lot of problems, lol. Again, a way to keep the family unit stronger.

Thou shalt not steal -- sane idea.

Thou shall not bear false witness upon thy neighbor -- logical

Do not covet they neighbor's house, wife, manservant, yada -- good idea

*The basic tenets are law, human law. This was written thousands of years ago, but we retain these values/philosophies of life, in the main to keep life a tad more peaceful.

Humans are frequently corrupt, insensitive, destructive -- it proves they are. Whoever put these words to paper/or stone (whatever you believe), they did it because men break rules.*

We have a secular justice system for the same reason. People feel entitled to "let it all hang out." Do whatever they want. I'd take the lovely Paris Hilton as an example who thinks she is a goddess herself. ACH she makes me puke. You know I don't even find her attractive. Is she? I prefer Nicole Richie, though she needs to put on some weight poor thing.

One could say "Thou shalt have no other God's before me" as "don't worship Hollywood stars and we do!" ... fill in your own sentence on that one.

There are always individuals throughout history who try to solve these problems in one way or another. Keep the peace so to speak. Because there are SO many beliefs they clash -- cultural, political, spiritual beliefs, etc.


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## Guest

Ofcourse everyone sees the bible, the buddhism teachings etc has very very good moral points and POV on life but lets not say the bible is perfect after all the old testament suggest you should kill your daughter/sister if shes not aa virgin before she is marieed, we should also kill all disobedient teenagers, homosexuals and everyone who works on sundays, that is insane.
And its portraying God as Hitler actually.


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## PPPP

I would like to remind you that the talmud/old testament is a history of the hebrew people as much as a religious text.

If you make a study of contemporaneous texts from the region you will find them similarly slanted, just without the monotheism that unites the ancient hebrews.

I'd agree totally that it is a problem when people decide that they can interpret it any way they want to meet their agendas and to manipulate people but that's about politics and control as much as it is about religion.



MentallyIll said:


> And its portraying God as Hitler actually.


This is *deeply* offensive. 
Did you think before you typed that?


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## Dreamer

Layla said:


> I'd agree totally that it is a problem when people decide that they can interpret it any way they want to meet their agendas and to manipulate people but that's about politics and control as much as it is about religion.


This is an important point.
1. What I knnow of the Bible is studying it as history, in "Great Books" in uni. I believe that some of the history is indeed at minimum based on some fact. It is also symbol, myth, parable, etc. and reflects the time it was written in, whenever that was.

2. There is no way that changes in history, can't affect how these earlier concepts are interpreted, manipulated, corrupted or changed. Again notice the infinite breaking off of religious groups from a center, in ALL religions. There are a million different types of Buddhism, Muslim, Christianity.

I just read something else today, this Stanton woman, I keep forgetting her name, who talks about the CHURCH as twisting Jesus' words and intentions. She was particularly involved in women's rights -- the suffragette movement etc. Her beef was less against Christianity in the Bible than the manipulation of the Catholic Church to subjugate (is that a word?) women.

I am so hyper today. I read, I type, I read, I type. And you already thought I was a maniac on the keyboard, lol.

And Mentally Ill, who said the Bible was perfect? It's far from "perfect" IMHO. If you are referring to the 10 Commandments the bulk of them refer specifically to the same secular laws we have today that people break.

And I just :roll: re: the Hitler comment.
Sigh.
Sigh.
Sigh.

I have to simply live with the fact that some people say, "Religion is bad" which is a gross generalization and listen to some of the same people say "God is Hitler." Likewise we live with murder in the name of beliefs. It's like a bad episode of "The Doctor Phil House" lol. It's remarkable the world functions as well as it does, and that's a rather pathetic statement.

Do so few people have such little respect for each other? Yes. And this is the problem. Very few people THINK or LISTEN. I'm guilty of this myself. I'm getting better with age, like a fine wine 8) (I hope - disclaimer on that one if there is disagreement.)

And so it goes.


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## Lynch_mob

I love fried baby jesus legs


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## Guest

First I say "this is portraying God as Hitler".. Which means THE OLD TESTAMENT DOES PORTRAY GOD AS HITLER. Not me. Im innocent
How many died under Hitler? Im not sure but look at it like this:
There are more than 260 million homosexuals in the world.
How many girls wasnt virgins before they married? 80%? Which is like 1.5-2.5billion people?
EVERY TEENAGER is disobedient at some point in their lives
Everyone who works on sundays? Probably 300 million atleast.
So if The Old Testament is the word of God as they claimed. 3 billion should die? If you agree with this it makes Hitlers cruelty drown...
It even describes HOW you are going to kill them, bringing them infront of the whole town and stone them to death.
Gas chambers/Stoned to death, if you managet o justify any of them, dont speak to anyone but a psychiatrist in near future
Im just defending myself as a disobedient teenager. I dont want to eat rocks
Try to understand that Im partly joking and partly serious.
Im not out to hate on spiritual people, hell ive been it myself.
Just notice the thread, ANTI/EX spiritual, not EY LETS DISCUSS HOW GREAT RELIGION IS OR WHY ITS A HUMAN RIGHT TO BELIEVE ANYTHING".
I get along well with you Layla, please dont misunderstand

When I believe in God I believed he was ALL loving and that what kills people is their Ego...
This is what Im saying, Im not saying that if there is a God he is like Hitler, im just saying the old testament MUST be wrong... cause if you actually support killing 3billion people. REALITY CHECK!

I did nt mean to offend anyone actually but you dont think saying "EY ALL HOMOSEXUALS GO KILL YOURSEL" is OFFENSIVE?
AND STILLL you say religion dont make you delusional? 

Its like the enlightened Guru Osho Rajaneesh said:

"Dont softtalk, SHOCK people to open their eyes and actually think"


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## PPPP

Well when you liken the jewish history and faith (you were talking about the 'old testament') to hitler's regime it is offensive.

I'm not defending the sometimes horrible things included in that history, but the world was like that back then. 
Try reading some of the other writings from the ancient middle east and you will see that alot of that is a product of a very harsh and cruel time.
I find some of the stories in it to be disgusting.(lot & his daughters? creepy creepy)

And to your argument about homosexual folks, suicide is expressly forbidden in christianity and in many other faiths.

As far as I know the catholic church teaches that it's okay for someone to be gay but that they shouldn't act on it.
Now I don't agree with that but that is not the same as saying that they should die.

Some churches have gay pastors and allow gay weddings. And that's just christianity, there's variety of belief and practice in every faith.
So you're painting religion with a very broad brush.


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## Guest

Yeah but Im not discussing other beliefs religions or faiths, we are talking about the Old Testament and if Im offensive when I say I dont think we should kill 60% of Earth, I DONT CARE.
U cant say a person who wants to kill millions is cruel and then say "well its Ok if u carry a cross" then ur mentally not stable..

Another thing I want to know about christianity: WHERE IS HEAVEN, we all know its not in the sky, thats impossible and has been disproven for hundreds of years.
So where is heaven? "Heaven lies within" yeah, I understand, but then when you die, there is no more heaven. 
So where is the pearly gates located? In another dimension? Please dont say this its too ridiculous and cant be argued for as it cant be proven.

And where is hell? We know its not in the core of the earth, this is ridiculous.
I just dont understand why God would hide from us.
If hes always watching over us and love us wouldnt he make him self present everywhere.
If he is the creator of all wouldnt it be easy for him to just kind of give a miracle all over earth so EVERYONE would understand? it would clear everything up in a second,so if god exist, he wants us to suffer. 
This is the thing I dont understand,and Im really interested in understanding so please share your knowledge.
Prayer is proven superstitious in hundreds of studies.
It has absolutely NO effect.
Many NDEs etc has been debunked and disproven to medical causes.
So what is God, what is Gods effect?
God is love, hmm ok,well I have never felt any love except when Im WITH PEOPLE I love.
Ive had religious experiences like Kundalini etc. but I still deny to believe in supernatural anymore cause, you have schizos who believe they are possessed by devils etc. 
Why is it that everything that exist can be proven by science and there is nothing like supernatural ?
Telepathy etc can be proven scientificially and gotnothing to do with spirituality. So its like WHERE THE PROOF?
Someone with insight please elaborate.


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## FightingDepression

New age sounds really stupid. more like "back to the dark ages".

Most of the people want to believe in something just to give them a meaning or reason.
I find it a mistake.
First of all, I see no reason, if evolution is correct, to even have psychic powers like new age suggests..

And people there who claim they can see the future.. well, start warning us from problems?
And if you can see the future, it means the future is premade, and for it to be pre-made, someone had to write it.
But I'm sure it's all just lies or delusions.. may it be from sickness or may it be from wanting to believe.

People try to use quantum mechanics to find excuses, but no, it just dosen't happen, psychic isn't real.

As for god, who created god then?
If god dosen't need a creator, can't we just skip god and go to the universe?

Besides, Stephen Hawking seems to have found how to explain the universe:


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## DreamLife

FightingDepression said:


> And here people start saying "god, god, GOD!" again. well, who made god? who let god have the power?
> That's just excuses, men created god to face their own mortality and lack of knowledge.


I used to be like you, and I just want to tell you that life with God is so much better than life without. As an atheist, I used to debate with anyone who would listen, but today, I don't feel the need to debate about my faith. It just is.

Also, no one "made" God. It's a fact that humans use less than 10% of their brain's capacity for knowledge. Did it ever occur to you that your human mind can't comprehend the actual greatness and magnitute of God? Did it ever occur to you that man wasn't made to be able to understand everything in this universe? Finding an answer in God was the only thing that kept me from blowing my brains out. And I've gained so much more knowlege with a faith in God than I ever had before.

Becoming open-minded was the key for me. It took many hellish years for me to get to that point though. However, it takes what it takes.


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## Guest

Used to be like him? I always love that line, it?s like ?I used to be pathetic, but then I was enlighten by the holy light of bullshit?, now I walk around with my nose held high because I?ve the right to be a snob *slowly nods*.

Life with god? ?With?? where is he, in your pocket? Oh silly me? (It?s my simple mind, being pathetic and all is hard work  ..) He?s the voice in your mind *nods*? I understand. Yeah, you?ve no need to come back with a reply to my post, because deep down in your heart, you know its bull, so my words will mean nothing to you. =).

Yep, I totally agree? God pop outta no_fooking_where.com. The relevance of humans using less then 10% of their brain being linked in with god is a ?good one?. If we weren?t able to actually ?comprehend? the greatness and magnitude of the voice inside your/other?s heads? we wouldn?t have been able to come up with this ?excellent? bull shit/excuss in the first place. (This thread best not be in Spirituality Support? cos this reply of mine is so mint! (I?m typing in Microsoft Word, It?s down to being pathetic and all, God was kind enough to make me dyslexic =*(, but how?! he doesn?t even exist! So I?ll take responsibility for it! It?s ok I?m dyslexic, means my 3D thinking is excellent =D.)? (Takes a look to find this thread is in Spirituality Debate) wOOt! *wipes sweat? that was a close one.

Right, fair enough? If you need a ?simple? answer in life, please step on up and believe in your voices. *nods*.

Thanks? have a ?great? day! 

*Folds arms while looking scary* :evil:


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## DreamLife

Maybe God could help you with your dual personalities. Figure out who you are. Are you this nice, helpful guy or an egomaniac asshole? I've only been here for a couple weeks, but you should get your shit straight.

By the way, I didn't choose to start believing in God. It wasn't something where I said one day, "I don't want to be an atheist anymore. I now believe in God." As an atheist, you should know that. It just happened, which makes it more real to me than my own mind. God is more real to me than my hands typing this right now. God is more real to me than you could ever be.

Just because everything you believe is "bull" and you're unsure of who you are and what your life means doesn't mean everyone else feels that way.

God is whatever the hell you want him to be. If you want him to be simple, fine. If you want him to be complex, fine. People get this image of the Christian God or some religious God and they close their minds. "God" is just a word. You can call him whatever you want. You'd probably call him Darren.

I hope you have a blessed day.


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## Guest

?Dual personalities? is key here. I?m a totally different person offline and online =).

I?m captain planet! : 




*Quits the head bangin*

Choices choices? I am what I am at the ?time?. I?ve information to offer or take? I?ve also the piss the take or give? I need not get anything ?straight? with this disorder called DR/DP? are you familiar with it? It?s when you don?t know your personality =O, does that come to a shock to you?? Lol. So if it?s all good with you, I?ll ?recover? when I can and are able *Thumbs up*.

Ah so you refuse to take responsibility for what you believe in? ?It just happened?? Well that?s fine? don?t worry about it =). Yeah, I should know that one day I?ll just give in and believe in ?god? because that?s the ?in thing? to do at the moment? real ?cool?. So I?m unreal and your god is real? and you think I?m nuts? ?Dual personalities? = oh I?m sorry? was that you being nice to me? =S.

I don?t believe in ?bull?, I believe you believe in ?bull?. I believe in the ?now?. Every one has their own unique stereo type; tell me something I don?t know?

Well I want him to be a ninja hamster! But it?s not serious enough =*(. Come now? just because I have a large ego to mask my pain doesn?t mean I believe I?m god? although it?s possible? kinda like .00000000000000000000001% chance? you know? =P.

No it?s been crappy so far! =*(? this is karma! I have been nasty to a believer and now I?m a sinner and doomed for the real of my existence? Boo.

Sorry I just love wining you up? so easy? I?m really a nice guy to other people =).

Hope you break a leg =P.

))) Gay Hugs (((.


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## Pablo

DreamLife said:


> Also, no one "made" God. It's a fact that humans use less than 10% of their brain's capacity for knowledge. Did it ever occur to you that your human mind can't comprehend the actual greatness and magnitute of God? Did it ever occur to you that man wasn't made to be able to understand everything in this universe?


Then why explain life with God if we are unable to understand it? surely what you just wrote is contradictory= I cant understand life but I explain it with God.

Why bring God into the equation at all, why not just leave life as a mystery? perhaps it is only the mysery of life which makes life worth living and exciting. In my view God is for people who realise that life is miraculous and unfathomable which science cant fully explain but also they are people who cant bare with the uncertainty and unpredictability of it all. God is for scared people who need to explain and understand that which cant be understood for the sake of their own sanity and mental balance ie God is a mental comfort blanket.


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## DreamLife

God is not for everyone. If you can live your life happily and with fulfillment without God, that is fine. I am not here to convert you or bring you to the "dark side" of faith.

All I am saying is that I've been where you guys are now, and I've been where I am now. I've lived both experiences. I know what is real to me at this moment, and that is God. I don't care if you think that's weak, because that's exactly what I would have said to someone like myself four years ago. You guys are saying nothing that I haven't said before myself. So quit wasting your time.

I know that I didn't choose to believe in God. Do you choose to not believe in God? No! It happens because you can't prove his existence. You didn't choose that.

It is what it is and it kept me from committing suicide when my DP was at its worst, and that's really all you need to know. If/when your DP gets that bad, and suicide seems like the only option, then you'll know what I mean. Until then, I'll pray for you.


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## Guest

*Pablo* Thanks for getting to the point; I find it hard to do that. =)


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## Guest

DreamLife said:


> If/when your DP gets that bad, and suicide seems like the only option, then you'll know what I mean. Until then, I'll pray for you.


So judgemental of you, to think you?re on your own with your DR/DP battle. Yes DreamLife, you?re the only one here to have had suicide as their only option; now don?t you feel special. I really feel insignificant towards you now.

To the point:

My escape from suicide was a virtual reality, and your escape was/is your virtual god.

Oh my, now you come to understand that you aren?t alone )))Super hugs for you(((.

=)


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## CECIL

Think about what would happen if humans started using all of our potential 

Its called potential for a reason - because we have the potential to use it. So why don't we?


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## Guest

"because I have a large ego to mask my pain doesn?t mean I believe I?m god? although it?s possible? kinda like .00000000000000000000001% chance"

No.
There is 0% chance your God, that statement was a straightup asspull.
There is no God. so how thef uck could you be God.
Lol there is 0% your god and 100% ur urself.
Wtf, you all skipped kindergarden/middleschool/highschool/college?

Also "humans using 10% of their brain" lol, thats a fucking myth we use 100%. Lol

Humans buy into everything

Simple experiment; if your God, your the creator, then close ur eyes and create 1000 hot women infront of you, if u cannot do it in a nano second as the universe was created. Sorry your not God, easily disproven idea.
Peace.


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## DreamLife

It's "you're." Some of us did go to college.


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## Guest

Some of us don't live in the US =]
I don't think your sarcasm using a simply grammar spellcheck to test my laziness proves any higher intelligence from your side. 
Now go ask your sky daddy why he don't heal you.... Shit.


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## DreamLife

God's not some genie in a bottle like some people think he is. He doesn't just go around granting wishes and healing people or giving them a million dollars. He's the answer to every single one of my problems, but I have to do the work to find the solution, with his help. He gave human beings brains and free will. If I'm not getting healed, that's my fault, not his.


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## Guest

UUUU wrong!

Nature gave you a brain, and free will is a illusion, you can chose to act or not, but ur driven by your instincts/desires.

Who are you to define God?
It's funny, first God was living in the mountains, when we explored the mountains and didnt find him.
He moved to the sky, whe nwe moved to the sky, he moved to what? another dimension?
U can't see a pattern here?

haha, debating theists is like chatting with kids in kindergarden EXCEPT you don't have to play along. CAUSE FFS UR A GROWN UP, GROW UP


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## Pollyanna 3098

> free will is a illusion


lol, I decided to respond, is that an illusion  :?:


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## Guest

It's deeper than that, you feel you make the conscious choice a few milliseconds after the brain decided it.


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## DreamLife

I'm not trying to define God, but I can tell you from my own experience what he is NOT.

He's not some old guy that lives in the trees or in the clouds or in the ocean or "anywhere." God just is. I personally cannot comprehend his greatness with my human mind. If that makes me stupid, SO BE IT. I am far better off with my stupid delusion than I was when I was atheist or agnostic (that was a living hell for me, each and every day. I was hopeless and suicidal because I thought I knew it all but had nothing to live for--a loving God gives me something to live for).

God is not a "thing" or a "guy" or a "wizard" or a "planet." God is a word used to describe the highest power of the universes, the one who created it all, the one who designed each and every cell, atom, and process of evolution. He is omniscient, non-religious (in my opinion) but the definition of spirituality. He is not really a "he," but that's how we refer to him.

In my opinion, man came up with the idea that humans are created in God's image. I think that's complete ego and vanity on our part, and I disagree completely. Man is not as powerful as we make ourselves out to be. We are nothing in the infinite universe that we know so very, very little about.

I know nothing, and at this moment I am okay with that.


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## falling_free

> I know nothing, and at this moment I am okay with that.


Why not accept the postion of agnostic then???? believing in god comes with such a baggage of beliefs so ill at ease with the modern world, it suprises me that it still appeals to people at all.

Religious people will argue that believing in god is a human need, I say it is a 'need' programmed in via culture rather than a naturual need, a cultural hegemony of tradional conservative culture and the establishment (defintialy true of the catholic church if not all organized religion).


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## DreamLife

I would completely agree with you, except for the fact that my coming to believe in God occurred completely naturally. It wasn't a decision. It happened on March 21, 2004 and it was so real that I cannot deny it, and I will never, ever deny God's existence. God has become the *only* really real thing in my life, more real than my own mind. I cannot deny that power, even if I wanted to, which I don't.

Trying to live on my own terms using my own will and my own "intelligence" got me to a state of agoraphobic, alcoholic, hopeless, suicidal depression. The day that God showed himself to me was the day that those things went away to the point that I could begin functioning. I have no doubt that that was God, not me.

It's much easier for me to live with God than to live against him. I don't feel the baggage that you speak of. I felt that when I was agnostic and atheist, though. I felt like I was always looking down on those stupid believers, felt like I was so superior to them because I wasn't so blind by that "ignorance." But I was never fulfilled, I didn't understand the words serenity, contentment, or gratitude. I was miserable up on my high horse.

Today I am content when I am relying on God. I wake up wondering who I can help. Do you think I ever had that sort of thought when I was agnostic? Hell no! And I don't know many agnostics or atheists who do have thoughts like that (although there are always exceptions, just like there are horrible people who say they believe in God).

I'm not here to bash people who don't believe in God. I know that will only turn them away. It would have turned me away three years ago, so all I try to do is be an example through my actions. Do I fail? Of course. I'm still human.


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## DreamLife

> believing in god comes with such a baggage of beliefs so ill at ease with the modern world, it suprises me that it still appeals to people at all.


And another thing, I do not give a SHIT about the modern world. I am fed up with my generation and with the country that I live in, and I honestly want nothing to do with the "modern" world. Who cares what goes against what's modern? Modern = Bad to me. I hate the bureaucratization of this world and wish that I could escape to some remote country every day.

Maybe that's why I have DP...my mind is trying to escape from this hellish planet. Honestly, I feel like I was meant to live decades ago, but I'm only 23. I feel like life could be so simple if it wasn't all mucked up by modernization and everyone's need for power and everyone's lazy obsession with what's newest, easiest, and fastest. God is the only thing that has withstood all that, and he'll be the only one left when we self-destruct in a few more millenia.

Sorry, that's my rant for the day.


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## Pablo

DreamLife said:


> Today I am content when I am relying on God. I wake up wondering who I can help. Do you think I ever had that sort of thought when I was agnostic? Hell no! And I don't know many agnostics or atheists who do have thoughts like that (although there are always exceptions, just like there are horrible people who say they believe in God)..


Most Christians only try to do good because of fear or judgement so it is nothing to do with a pure heart or genuine empathy and I wonder if any act done out of fear is a worthwhile act even if it charity work.


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## DreamLife

I NEVER said I was a Christian. That was you putting words in my mouth. So now why do I do it? Because I'm in fear of going to a hell that I don't even believe in?


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## falling_free

> And another thing, I do not give a SHIT about the modern world. I am fed up with my generation and with the country that I live in, and I honestly want nothing to do with the "modern" world. Who cares what goes against what's modern? Modern = Bad to me. I hate the bureaucratization of this world and wish that I could escape to some remote country every day.


What exactly do you hate about the modern world???? we have things better now than we ever did (that is if your lucky enough to be in a country which is relatively well economically developed), better healthcare/medical facilities , better technology, better quality of life. There are aspects of the modern world which I don't like too, but you can't really deny that in many ways we are living in a generally good age (minus the conflict of various different sects and the clash of different cultures). I don't think it's perfect , like in my own personal view I think people are too centred on consumerism and attaining personal wealth (I would much rather live in a democratic socialist , cooperative society but that is a different argument/debate all together).



> I feel like life could be so simple if it wasn't all mucked up by modernization and everyone's need for power and everyone's lazy obsession with what's newest, easiest, and fastest. God is the only thing that has withstood all that, and he'll be the only one left when we self-destruct in a few more millenia.


That's the price of modernization, complexity. But really if you think about it when has life been simple??? society is an evolutionary process not a fixed state of affairs, new ideas will rise and die all the time, based on their merits. It's a very complex issue, one of which I don't have the willpower/brainpower to elaborate on any further . :lol:


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## DreamLife

> we have things better now than we ever did (that is if your lucky enough to be in a country which is relatively well economically developed), better healthcare/medical facilities , better technology, better quality of life.


You assume that quality of life for me relates to better economics, healthcare, and technology. It doesn't. Money has been the root of evil for me in the past, and I am at a point in life where if God saw fit for me to get rid of all my belongings and go do something else, I would do it. The only healthcare I use is for my monthly psychiatry visit (you see the irony there, right?). And technology has gotten to a point that I find ridiculous. I don't give a damn about iPods, text messaging, HD TV, cell phones, or any of that shit. If I hadn't been so brainwashed into thinking I need the Internet, I wouldn't have that either. I value a hand-written document, and I took my last algebra test without a calculator (damn near impossible, but I got a B).

All this stuff you speak of that adds to our so-called quality of life has actually taken away the real experience of life. Everything's made so easy for us that we forget we have the most complicated and perfect machine ever made within our own bodies, and it's been there all along. We forget about what it means to work hard for something, to take pride in something that a machine didn't do for us. We forget that we house more power in our own minds than any computer. We are becoming dehumanized by all this "quality of life."

For me, quality of life doesn't equate to easy, fast, or new. Everything that I value has been around since the beginning of civilization--love, faith, work, family, intelligence, ability. I have never found any of these things in a machine or in material possessions. I have tried, believe me.

So it's just a matter of what you consider "quality of life." That's a very personal opinion.


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## falling_free

> So it's just a matter of what you consider "quality of life." That's a very personal opinion.


Fair enough, yes it is a subjective opinion, im just saying that the modern world isn't a 'worse' place than it was 100 years ago (Objectivlly speaking and not for all parts of the world).



> For me, quality of life doesn't equate to easy, fast, or new. Everything that I value has been around since the beginning of civilization--love, faith, work, family, intelligence, ability.


I value these things too , I was just making the point that it's so easier to enjoy some of those things now

for example

intelligence - we have the internet , the printing press all of which add to one's potential intelligence , much more infomation at the fingertips than say hundreds of years ago.



> I have never found any of these things in a machine or in material possessions. I have tried, believe me.


And you probably never will because these are essentially 'human' qualities!!!

Im not really a believer in material wealth either as being the main goal in life, I want adequate wealth but I would rather be happy and fufilled with myself than have a billion pounds anyday. As I mentioned before I am a democratic socialist so meaterial wealth is largly irrelevant to me, I would rather live in a relativly prosperous society for ALL of the world , rather than for a small minority.


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