# Schiavo Case: reactions on Right to Die?



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

I have some mixed feelings about this case, where this woman who has been in a coma since 1990, has now had her feeding tube removed and will soon die.

*What do people feel about the arguement between Terri Schiavo's husband (for letting her die) vs. her parents who want to keep her alive in this state.*

This is a scary situation. What scares me most is if I were trapped inside my body like that, unable to speak for myself.... my fear is being a stroke victime who can see hear and feel, but who can't talk. If my paliative care were removed I would clearly suffer a slow death on top of it all.

*But I don't think the government should be making these decisions. And these judges and attorneys are certainly between a rock and a hard place.*

Comments? Here is the latest report.

I'm in the middle of a move while my bathroom was just gutted. I need a break down here in "That's Life"... glad it's here.

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Recent article on all of this:

*Schiavo's Health Wanes As Parents Appeal

Updated 10:49 AM ET March 25, 2005 
Associated Press*

By MIKE SCHNEIDER

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. (AP) - As Terri Schiavo's health waned, a federal judge refused Friday to order the reinsertion of her feeding tube, thwarting another legal move from the brain-damaged woman's parents. They quickly appealed the ruling.

For a second time, U.S. District Judge James Whittemore ruled against the parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, who had asked him to grant their emergency request to resume their daughter's nourishment while he considers a lawsuit they filed.

The Schindlers appealed again to the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta to review Whittemore's ruling. The Atlanta court refused earlier this week to overturn a previous Whittemore ruling.

Bob Schindler visited his daughter for about 15 minutes Friday morning; he declined to comment on his way into and out of the hospice where Schiavo lives.

Gov. Jeb Bush has ordered his legal team to scour state laws for a way to reconnect Schiavo's feeding tube. There were calls from a supporter of the parents for him to take further action.

*The tube was removed a week ago on a state judge's order that agreed with Schiavo's husband, Michael, who has said she has no hope for recovery and wouldn't want to be kept alive artificially. The Schindlers believe their daughter could improve and wouldn't want to die.*

In his 11-page ruling, Whittemore wrote that the Schindlers couldn't establish "a substantial likelihood of success on the merits" of their case. He also noted "the difficulties and heartbreak the parties have endured throughout this lengthy process" and praised the lawyers' civility, saying it was "a credit to their professionalism ... and Terri."

George Felos, attorney for Michael Schiavo, did not immediately return a call seeking comment on the ruling.

*As of Friday morning, Terri Schiavo, 41, had been without food or water for almost seven days and was showing signs of dehydration _ flaky skin, dry tongue and lips, and sunken eyes, according to attorneys and friends of the Schindlers. Doctors have said she would probably die within a week or two of the tube being pulled.

She has now been off the tube longer than she was in 2003, when the tube was removed for six days and five hours. It was reinserted when the Legislature passed a law later thrown out by the courts.*

The governor's request to let the state take Terri Schiavo into protective custody was denied by a Pinellas Circuit judge on Thursday.

On Thursday, Bush said his powers "are not as expansive as people would want them to be. ... I cannot go beyond what my powers are and I'm not going to do it."

But Paul O'Donnell, a supporter of the parents, contended the governor still has the power to take her into protective custody.

"Bob and Mary are begging Governor Bush to save their daughter on this Good Friday day," O'Donnell, a Franciscan monk, said after Friday's ruling. "Now is the day. Now is the time for the governor to have courage. The governor needs to take action and take action soon. She's dying."

A spokeswoman for the governor, Alia Faraj, said Friday he was "saddened by the decision. ... Judge Whittemore's willingness to take a look at Terri's case gave us a ray of hope."

Thursday, Felos said he hoped the woman's parents and the governor would finally give up their fight.

"Jeb Bush does not own the state of Florida and just cannot impose his will on Terri Schiavo," he told CBS' "The Early Show" on Friday.

The Schindlers' emergency request to have the feeding tube reattached included claims that Schiavo's religious and due-process rights were violated.

"It's very frustrating. Every minute that goes by is a minute that Terri is being starved and dehydrated to death," said her brother, Bobby Schindler, who said seeing her was like looking at "pictures of prisoners in concentration camps."

Michael Schiavo's brother, Brian Schiavo, strongly disagreed with that assessment, telling CNN that Terri Schiavo "does look a little withdrawn" but insisting she was not in pain. He added that starvation is simply "part of the death process."

In the federal court hearing Thursday, Schindler lawyer David Gibbs III argued that Terri Schiavo's rights to life and privacy were being violated. Whittemore interrupted as Gibbs attempted to liken Schiavo's death to a murder.

"That is the emotional rhetoric of this case. It does not influence this court, and cannot influence this court. I want you to know it and I want the public to know it," Whittemore said.

A perimeter around the federal courthouse was evacuated during the hearing after a suspicious backpack was found outside. The hearing was not interrupted, and the package was safely detonated using a remote device.

Terri Schiavo suffered brain damage in 1990 when her heart stopped briefly from a chemical imbalance believed to have been brought on by an eating disorder. She left no living will.

The resulting dispute between parents and husband has led to what may be the longest, most heavily litigated right-to-die case in U.S. history.

Earlier Thursday, the U.S. Supreme Court, without explanation, refused to order the feeding tube reinserted. The case worked its way through the federal courts and reached the Supreme Court after Congress passed an extraordinary law over the weekend to let the Schindlers take their case to federal court.

___

*Associated Press writers Mark Long, Mitch Stacy in Clearwater, Vickie Chachere and Jill Barton in Tampa, and Jackie Hallifax and Brendan Farrington in Tallahassee contributed to this report.

Copyright 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.*

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*Note: This does definitely emphasize the need for everyone to have a "Living Will" where you put your wishes in writing when you are HEALTHY. But the scary thing is, I've heard peoples' POV changes sometimes when they are unable to speak for themselves. THey report this if they regain the ability to communicate. I read of one stroke victim who was in horrible pain when her feeding tube was removed. But there are those who want to die who are kept alive. Terrifying.*

D


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

Like you, I'm a little divided on this issue.

I *fully support* the right and - in cases such as this where there is no chance of recovery - the desirability of terminating life; especially when it can be ascertained that the person is suffering, rather than being in some extreme kind of "blissful apathy".

What I *do not* support - and in fact I view this as utterly absurd - is the current medical procedure in which doctors are not allowed to terminate life in such cases, only to let it end of its own accord (in this case by *starving to death*).

It is the same in many cases of terminal illness. In fact, in a number of them the sufferer is able to express clear wishes to die. A lethal injection would end their anguish in 5 minutes; instead they, at best, are able to have their slow deaths eased by morphine and other drugs (although in extreme examples thse can even make things worse).

So yes, I support the fact that in this case and in others the patient should not necessarily be kept alive,certainly in this case where it was the patient's express wish prior to her vegetative state that she should not be kept alive in such conditions; I do not, however, understand why, in such cases, doctors are not able to administer a lethal injection but are instead compelled to make the person die of their own accord slowly, and in anguish.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Monkeydust said:


> So yes, I support the fact that in this case and in others the patient should not necessarily be kept alive,certainly in this case where it was the patient's express wish prior to her vegetative state that she should not be kept alive in such conditions; I do not, however, understand why, in such cases, doctors are not able to administer a lethal injection but are instead compelled to make the person die of their own accord slowly, and in anguish


Yes, I agree with this fully. I personally would rather be put to sleep than forced to suffer MORE by starvation and dehydration... the "natural way." The end is the same -- death. Why make it horrendous and unbearable.

I felt this way when my father was dying of congestive heart failure. He suffered for 2 weeks. He was 85, he also had prostate cancer that had spread to his spine, he had NO chance of surviving, but he was kept alive, as it is "the natural way."

We worry about the suffering of our pets. I had to put my old cat down. He died in my arms. He was completely incapacitated by organ failure, though he could still walk, even play! It was heart-wrenching, but he was suffering. He couldn't eat or drink, etc. NORMALLY.

We are able to put our animals to sleep to end their suffering, but not human beings.

On the other end is the proverbial "slippery slope." Concerns about the Dr. Kevorkians of the world who perform assisted suicide for patients who ask for it.

Also, if doctors are allowed to do ths, there is the question of using this too frequently, perhaps unnecessarily.

But I agree. I wished my father could have been let out of his misery.

What is strange is a case like Terri Schiavo who sort of appears "with it" though she seems to have little brain activity. Her eyes are open, etc. But everything else has to be taken care of for her and she can't communicate. SHe is deemed to be in a vegative state.

I have a Living Will I want to update. This stuff just terrifies me. It is so difficult, how to decide, but it seems far less cruel in this case to use a quick solution rather than worsening this woman's suffering.

In the U.K. I recall years back reading about something called "Brompton's Mixture" -- a lethal dose of something that the dying patient could chose to take or not. I'll google it, but it seems like a logical thing, when there is NO hope of recovery.

This is so difficult to address.
Thanks MD for the response.
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

P.S., the "Brompton's Mixture" was kept on the patient's bedside table. It was just there and would put the patient to sleep. The patient would decide. I have to research it myself further.

I HATE MOVING! :evil:


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

> Why make it horrendous and unbearable?


I know you meant that as a rhetorical question, but the main reason - in both the US and the UK - is that religious groups lobby governments to the extent that they cannot or do not change the law. Apparently the "sanctity of life" stipulates that we cannot ease the suffering in such circumstances.



> On the other end is the proverbial "slippery slope." Concerns about the Dr. Kevorkians of the world who perform assisted suic*** for patients who ask for it.
> 
> Also, if doctors are allowed to do ths, there is the question of using this too frequently, perhaps unnecessarily.


I see where you're coming from, but in principle I don't see any reason why laws and procedures could be structured in such a way as to guarantee against unscrupulous practice in euthanasia.

I also don't really agree with the "slippery slope" argument - that somehow changing the law in one respect will inexorably lead to us seeing "death doctors" handing out suicide to those who wants it. I see no reason why this should have to happen



> P.S., the "Brompton's Mixture" was kept on the patient's bedside table. It was just there and would put the patient to sleep. The patient would decide. I have to research it myself further.


That's interesting, I haven't heard of that before.

Is this "Brompton's Mixture" still in use, or was it a past practice?

In any case, it wouldn't be much help to those in a vegetative state.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Dear Monkeydust,

You said, and I again think I agree with this....


> I see where you're coming from, but in principle I don't see any reason why laws and procedures could be structured in such a way as to guarantee against unscrupulous practice in euthanasia.
> 
> I also don't really agree with the "slippery slope" argument - that somehow changing the law in one respect will inexorably lead to us seeing "death doctors" handing out suic*** to those who wants it. I see no reason why this should have to happen


I would think, especially with "Living Wills", request for DNR procedures, written by a healthy individual BEFORE they get in such a situation -- indeed a person in a coma can't act upon this... yup.

What ticks me off is in the U.S. we have a very good justice system on one hand, and are very out of step/out of date on the other. FOr instance, the fact that it is still up for debate if marijuana can be used to help cancer patients with pain. That is absolutely ludicrous to make that a criminal charge. For crying out loud.

I looked up Brompton's mixture, and it does sound humane. But one would have to be able to act on one's own behalf to use it, and I believe could "overdose" intentionally without much of a fuss.

From Googling:

"This liquid "cocktail" of morphine (or heroin), cocaine, alcohol 
(and sometimes other central nervous system depressants), 
chloroform water, and flavoring, which probably takes its name from 
Brompton Hospital, was sometimes provided to patients suffering 
from pain associated with terminal illness."

I then looked up the hospital which is alive and well in the U.K.

"Royal Brompton & Harefield NHS Trust is the largest cardiothoracic 
centre in the UK and probably the largest in Europe. Both hospitals 
are at the leading edge nationally and internationally in the 
investigation, treatment and care of people with heart and lung 
disease."

Again, this cocktail would be easy for someone who has mobility to use. If one is stuck in a coma, unable to move, etc. it's useless. But here it would seem a patient can dictate how much suffering is bearable, and I read or heard somewhere, that in theory, I person can indeed choose to "take too much" and fall asleep, and no one would find that illegal.

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I don't know enough about law to determine "the slippery slope". I think it has been argued re: so many things from abortion to gay civil unions to cloning to stem cell research. There ARE some legitimate issues that can set dangerous precedent. And in the case of Roe v. Wade ... was that the abortion case .... the law is shakey though the law passed.

I felt the ends justified the means in that case, but we're always openingu up cans of worms with these things.

My overall belief is make a Living Will and tell all those you know of your desire to be given death with dignity. Thank God my mother had this and there were no "special measures" to keep her alive. She had Alzheimer's for about 12 years, 10 of those in a Nursing Home. She suddenly developed congestive heart failure in 2001. Fortunately her wishes were known or they could have put her on a ventilator, given her heart medications, etc. It would have been a mess, and it could have prolonged her life for who knows how long.

I was told that on the locked Alzheimer's ward NO ONE had a resuscitation order.  If any physical illness took over, no extraordinary means were to be used to keep the patient alive.

I wish others would weigh in on this. Mondeydust, I think you and I are in agreement here.
Best,
D

Did I say I HATE MOVING? :evil: I am starting to pitch stuff without mercy. How can I have 5 bottles of hand cream? Crap like that. And papers! Writing. Stuff I want, but don't want. ERRRRRRRRRRR :roll:


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

"Better off dead than disabled?"

February 20, 2005

This week, unless a stay is granted by Florida courts, brain-damaged Terri Schindler-Schiavo will begin painful starvation at the hands of her husband, Michael Schiavo--as ordered by Circuit Judge George Greer, whose court is in Clearwater, Florida.

Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, told Fox News' Greta Van Susteren last week that the judge's ruling is a "mandatory injunction" that "commands" Terri's legal guardian (in this case, her husband) to remove her feeding tube.

According to Felos--who's evidently been paid over $300,000 in legal fees from a 1992 medical fund intended for Terri's rehabilitation--Terri's husband has no option but to kill Terri, and he said his client is determined to follow through.

The issues

The central issue in this nationally-publicized case is whether a man can legally kill his wife solely on the basis of his "hearsay" claim that she never wanted to be kept alive artificially if she became severely disabled.

Her husband has no proof to substantiate his claim of his wife's wishes--which he cited in his original efforts to have her forcibly put to death several years ago at the outset of this ongoing legal battle. Terri never expressed her wishes in writing.

Also at issue is the true condition of Terri. Felos claims that Terri "is in a vegetative condition"--due to "massive structural brain damage"--and he asserts that she "has no consciousness."

Terri's family members strongly dispute such allegations, and say they have evidence that Terri "is able to interact with her visitors and caregivers"--to quote a petition recently made on behalf of Terri by Florida Gov. Jeb Bush to the U.S. Supreme Court, which turned down the petition.

"Unconscious" people, Terri's defenders argue, do not "interact with their visitors"--nor do they demonstrably respond to music, voices, or interesting stories, as Terri does. Regular visitors say she is aware of others and responds through her eyes, through noises she makes, and through smiling. A nurse says Terri laughs at jokes.

Reportedly, she can't speak (although a nurse has heard her say, "Hi," "Momma," and "Help me"); she can't swallow (although at least one medical expert says he can prove she can); and she's bedridden--but she's obviously not "vegetative," as her husband's attorney claims.

The Schindler family's attorney, David Gibbs counters Mr. Felos by saying: "Terri is every bit as alive as you and I. She responds. She laughs. She loves her mother. She gets upset when music is turned off."

Gibbs continues:

"She had not met me before, and she liked my voice and she followed me around the room [with her eyes]. And I was absolutely impressed with how alive she is."

Terri's parents contend that, had Terri received the rehabilitative care her 1992 medical malpractice award was meant to guarantee (but which her husband has nearly exhausted on attorney's fees), she would be able to speak, swallow, and function with increased capability. And she would also be able to express her desire to live.

At least one report says that Michael Schiavo has withheld all rehabilitative care--even though he successfully obtained the malpractice award by testifying that he would use it to "take care of [his] wife."

"Artificial means"

Terri's husband and his attorney seek her death on the claim that she doesn't want to be kept alive "artificially"--as though she requires mechanical breathing support or other costly intervention in the first place.

She doesn't.

Like anyone else, she requires only food and water. In fact, her needs are so basic and simple that her parents have repeatedly petitioned to be granted the right take care of her themselves, at home. But her husband refuses to yield guardianship.

Yet, he himself has been living with an other woman for many years, and has two children by her.

Terri's parents have insisted that Michael divorce Terri, but he steadfastly refuses to do so--while pursuing every legal option to destroy her.

Ignoring the obvious

Meanwhile, Judge Greer has apparently never visited Terri to ascertain her physical condition for himself in this difficult case, nor has he been willing to accept the testimony of several medical professionals that she is aware, responsive, communicative, and susceptible to rehabilitation. There is talk of impeaching him for various offenses.

The husband's behavior

The inexplicable behavior of Michael Schiavo raises legitimate questions about his motivation.

Early in the legal battle over the fate of his wife, he stood to gain financially from her medical settlement (and evidently said so). The matter has now dragged on for so long, however, that any remaining funds in the award account will likely go to legal fees.

So what does he stand to gain by killing his wife?

At least one source reports that expert witnesses claim that Terri was the victim of spousal abuse--and that 6'6", 250-pound Michael Schiavo had a fight with his wife the day she suffered cardiac arrest and became seriously brain damaged.

Among the expert accounts is testimony that Terri had numerous broken bones and other injuries when she was treated for "cardiac arrest."

When he initially gained Judge Greer's approval to kill Terri in 2003--approval stayed through unprecedented action by the Florida Legislature and Gov. Bush that resulted in "Terri's Law"--Michael Schiavo stipulated that upon Terri's death, she was to be immediately cremated.

Such action, of course, would destroy all evidence of foul play that some experts have cited as the likely cause of Terri's brain damage.

No matter what lies in her husband's heart, or in his past treatment of Terri, something is definitely wrong with this picture. Michael Schiavo has shown that he has no regard for his wife, her family, or the integrity of America's legal system.

Implications

Absent any further stays, Terri's feeding tube can be pulled anytime beginning Tuesday, when remaining legal impediments expire. Michael Schiavo will then be authorized by the court--no, according to his attorney, he will be forced by the court--to kill Terri, because she "wants" to be killed, even though Michael cannot prove such a claim, even though Terri is not in a "vegetative" state as alleged; and even though she is not sustained by "artificial" means at all (beyond food and water sent through a tube).

The starvation death could take ten to fourteen days. In 2003, Terri survived six days of cruel starvation before Gov. Bush and the Legislature intervened at the last minute with "Terri's Law." Terri's death--if it occurs--will be extremely painful, as well as inhumane and unconscionable.

The effect of such an outcome will be that all of us, especially the disabled, will be at risk of arbitrary destruction at the hands of a judiciary that has seemingly lost all respect for the rule of law, and that has become, instead, a law unto itself.


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## Revelation_old (Aug 9, 2004)

Tough situation.

If it were ME. I would want to be left alive.
Though if I were ever in that situation my mind could change - and I couldn't tell anyone. That would suck! Scary but for now I would want to be alive regardless.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

I think Joe brings up the important part of the "slippery slope". I don't know enough of the in depth story on this, but could the husband be unscrupulous? I don't know enough about it ... I would think, if Terri Schiavo's doctors feel this is indeed a vegetative state, the attorneys in favor of keeping her alive would have a _weak_ (EDIT) case.

This is what is confusing to me. Also, the judge/judges involved, how can they rule to keep the feeding tube out if they aren't convinced the husband is right. If the judges felt this was illegal on the part of the husband... something to get her money, or.....? How can the legal system come to the decision it has?

Indeed, for all we know, her husband is a cruel man and is using the situation to his advantage?

But back to what Revelation said, I am thinking about this in terms of DP/DR I guess as well -- I'm looking at it from my POV, as we all do, if WE were in that situation. If I were trapped in my body, (my fear is literally an incapacitating stroke), where I am conscious, but cannot move. Maybe I can see/hear but can't communicate or do anything else, I think I'd go mad. Particularly with the DP on top of it.

The bottom line is, all of us (and I guess as you get older -- I'm a geezer I guess :? sigh -- you hear of these things, you think about these things, because they happen, to people you know, to people's parents, etc. Bottom line is we have to talk to those close to us, openly and make our wishes clear. We have to put it in writing, have it included in our Wills.

The think that strikes me is Christopher Reeve again. What a brave soul. His wife and children with with him to the end, but even he considered suicide. I make no judgement one way or the other. And he chose life, and he chose to become a spokesperson for spinal chord injury -- the greatest role of his life. *But he was able to have a healthy mind, and he could communicate. He hadn't lost any of that. Yet he yearned to simply hold/feel his wife and children, and that was so painful for him. Such a "together" guy.*

I don't know what I would do. I can't imagine what it's like to be Terri Schiavo. Last I saw on my internet news is she is getting close to death.

Joe, what newpaper did you get that article from? I need to do more research on the legal battle here. I would think if her parents wanted to care for her... if they could care for her completely themselves... why not?

Unfortunately, she didn't have a written directive for her wishes.

And even then, there are doctors who feel they can't intervene. They must "do no harm."

Sad, very sad.
And this really scares me. I think it's one weird fear I have in getting older. A stroke. Go figure. It was so much easier being a hypochondriac at age 13! Life is......... so hard.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Clarification re: Chris Reeve. He said, many times, after his accident, he wish he had been killed -- had not survived the fall. He couldn't take his own life after that as he was quadreplegic (sp?! sorry!) .... couldn't move anything below the neck.

I would think anyone who knew him would have a helluva time helping him die -- couldn't do it. He had to have 24 hour round the clock care for seven years. He could NEVER be left alone. Now that would drive me crazy as well.

At any rate, he became very depressed, then fought on.
That's tough. That's brave.

Very difficult. Very.


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## Revelation_old (Aug 9, 2004)

> But back to what Revelation said, I am thinking about this in terms of DP/DR I guess as well -- I'm looking at it from my POV, as we all do, if WE were in that situation. If I were trapped in my body, (my fear is literally an incapacitating stroke), where I am conscious, but cannot move. Maybe I can see/hear but can't communicate or do anything else, I think I'd go mad. Particularly with the DP on top of it.


I (ME, MY BEING) just wants to live forever, that is why I made that point.

It's not even a point about THIS case, its just so much about ME.

I never want to go 'away'.
When I close my eyes that final time I believe I will open them again. Many think this is silly but I live by it.

I do NOT let go of things I love, life is a big love of mine.
I'm wicked selfish.


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## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

You can't really compare Christopher Reeve Terri Schiavo for pretty obvious reasons.

I fully support the husband in this case. Regardless if she were suffering or not, she is a vegetable and I personally don't think she has a chance of recovery. I would think the suffering of her husband and family having to see her in a vegetative state for the rest of her life would be unbearable. If I was in Terri's situation, I would have wanted the plug pulled years ago. I wouldn't want my family to remember me as this guy who drools all over himself and also bear the burden of taking care of me. And not to sound cold, but it probably isn't cheap to keep supporting her.

There are hard-core Christians and others who see it as murder but I would rather let her live in the kingdom of heaven than like that.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2005)

theres no harm in letting her live


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

im glad someone brought this up. i feel very close to this issue, because i used to take care of people just like terri. and when i say just like i mean JUST LIKE. curled hands and feet, very low functioning completely dependant for all their needs. thats what i was there for. every disabled person i cared for were like my own children. you cannot know these people unless you are close to them like i was. they have more personality and zest for life than most people i know including myself. for them to crack a smile is a huge feat becuase their muscles dont want to do anything. and these clients of mine would smile the biggest smiles you ever saw.. and thats saying something. i got so close to them that i knew i would die for them. i got too close and watched too many of them pass away from their ailments, and it devistated me and i had to quit.

this whole ordeal scares the hell out of me. because it means so much more than this one woman. whos to say who is next on the list to die? and not just die.. to die by horrible evil torture of the worst kind. this has nothing to do with politics or religion. not to me. all i care about are my kids. the voiceless ones who cant stand up and go.. PLEASE DONT KILL ME! DONT STARVE ME TO DEATH I BEG YOU! all they can do is lay there and take whatever is being done to them. it absolutely disgusts me and i have to say.. i hope her husband gets the karma he deserves. how can he say hes doing this out of love and compassion? starving his wife to death? its all bullsh1t. complete and total rubbish and it makes me so sad and worried beyond belief that no one can see that. what does this mean for the other terris out there? for the ones whos families are sick of changing diapers and nursing bedsores and giving spongebaths? all they have to do is say.. "well they told me they want to die." and that makes it ok to stop feeding them until they perish of dehydration?

i really dont understand it. this is so scary and major.


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

Sleepingbeauty

I _do_ see where you're coming from, and perhaps (though perhaps not) I'd agree with you were it the case that Terry Schiavo had left no express wishes before she became ill.

But the point is that she herself *said* - and the court accepted her husband's evidence on this - that, were something like this to happen to her, it would be her wish to die.

I don't think it's fair to turn round to her after that and say "sorry, we know you said that then, but we don't think you mean it now", when your judgement would be merely on the general "feeling" you get from being around these people about their quality of life.



> all they have to do is say.. "well they told me they want to die." and that makes it ok to stop feeding them until they perish of dehydration?


No, I don't think they do.

Terry's husband had been pleading his case to a court for *years*. Anyone who wanted to do the same to their relative or loved one would clearly have to present a fair amount of evidence for the claim that someone "wanted to die" and would have to fight their case for a long time. It wouldn't be so simple as saying "well they told me they want to die".


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Life is precious. Im not a religious person, but I believe every minute we are alive its a gift from God. We only get to live once. Once its over, its over FOREVER. There are people(her own blood) who deeply love this woman who are willing to take all the resposibiltiy for her care. As a parent I cant understand this. The husband is insisting she die instead and he backs it up with hearsay that he didnt come up with for over 7 years after the situation started. Her husband should walk away and forget about her(like hes done in the past with his new family). He had NOTHING to do with her for years yet now hes at her bedside every minute to watch here slowly and painfully die. What a sick fuck. Gee, I wonder why hes insisting on an immediate cremation? I think the state of Florida should make sure there is an autopsy once its finally over.


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## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

I understand both sides of the story and sympathize with each of them.

But, do we really know Terry Schiavo wants to live? If she said she wouldn't want to live if put in that situation and there is evidence to support it, than that is proof enough for me. Face it. The husband and her family are both in this for selfish reasons. The husband is probably a bastard- he doesn't want to pay and care for her anymore and she is more of a burden than a joy to him. He wants to get on with his life. The family obviously comes from a different viewpoint, but they just don't want to let her daughter go. I don't really know what the financial situation is- but I'm guessing she's under her husband's insurance plan. Her family may have a different opinion after being burdened by her expensive medical bills for more than a decade. I feel like a sh*thead bringing money into this but personally, I would want my family to be able to pursue their dreams if this happened to me, and if finances are preventing them from doing so, I say let me go.

SB, I know what you are talking about to some extent. For 3 or 4 years my grandmother was pretty much bed-ridden and she had a feeding tube towards the end. She was completely senile, couldn't really move anything but her fingers, but she could talk. You really had to listen hard to understand her, but when she did talk, it was something hilarious. She loved making fun of my uncle's fat wife which was hysterical. I remember one time I had to lift her out of her wheelchair and into her bed by myself which isn't easy. It usually takes two nurses, and I ended up doing such a terrible job and she just laughed at me for about 5 minutes straight, and you're right- you do get a lot of joy out of it.

But, still, I agree with the courts.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

*Dear Rev,*
No worries, I was just curious in general about this, and *I'm seeing that I respond to this from my own fears of a similar situation.*

*And Gimpy and Monkeydust.
I agree with both of you, bottom line, though I'm also saddened with what Sleepingbeauty has to say.*

I volunteered at my Uni Hospital during my college days with sick babies who had been abandoned by their parents. These babies had serious birth defects and the parents come in, have the child, then _would never come back_

My friend and I got up at 4am to help with the 5am feedings. This ward had like 20 abandoned babies. Some had serious birth defects like spina bifida, or were blind, deaf, whatever. We helped the nurses really just give the babies love. I will admit, I did not notice the babies' infirmities after some real first-time shocks. Beth and I loved doing this, once a week. I wasn't disgusted by these little ones. And they all acted like.... babies. They were sweet, and funny, and loveable. And no one wanted them. But their illnesses were overwhelming. Many would die within their first year of life.

*Gimpy,* I brought up Chris Reeve as I say, OK, if I, Dreamer, were in a horrid situation like Schiavo or Reeve, I'd choose Reeve's situation -- if my brain/thinking/feeling/ability to commuicate where 100% functioning (and it would be nice to have no DP/DR anxiety, etc.) I could (maybe?) push on with that. I personally couldn't live, or wouldn't want to live like Terri Schiavo. Again, my greatest fear.... *what is going on, trapped inside that mind of hers? It terrifies me, but I am projecting my own fears onto her. No one can really know.*

*Also to add insult to injury. I read in the AP this morning that Terri had a serious eating disorder and this was the cause of her brain damage!Man life is a bitch if you'll excuse me. I feel so lousy for this woman.*

*Joe,* I don't think anyone thinks the husband plotted to kill his wife. She has been seen by so many doctors, (see article below) and cremation could also have been mentioned as a wish in her Will or she could have said this to her parents. There is no criminal investigation into the husband is there? They've had plenty of time to conduct one.

I don't know what I would do in his situation either. I can't answer it, though my husband and I have talked openly about what we wish. My husband is spooked by Wills and this sort of stuff. I have a Will and Living Will and Burial wishes. My husband doesn't, yet we have talked repeatedly about his wishes. If something were to happen to him, like this, I know what he wants, but damnit, he won't put it in writing. I just had a thought that I should tape record him over the phone saying it!

*Everybody, getting a Living Will. Select a Guardian (which is normally your spouse if married), and write down exactly what you want if you're in this situation!*

-------------------------------------------------------------
*Anyway, the following is a warning of the dangers of eating disorders. Very SAD and scary situation.*

*Eating Disorder Underlies Schiavo Tragedy
Updated 3/25/2005 11:37:44 PM

By Daniel DeNoon*

*March 25, 2005 - One of the scariest things about the Terri Schiavo tragedy is that many, many women - right now - risk the same fate.

According to the Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation, Schiavo collapsed in her home not because she had a heart attack or stroke, but because her body chemistry was horribly out of balance.

Court documents state - and medical records suggest - that the then-26-year-old woman suffered from bulimia, an eating disorder.

In that, she is not alone. An estimated 1% to 4% of American women suffer from bulimia. The central symptom of bulimia is repeated cycles of binge eating followed by purging. Purging means self-induced vomiting and/or abuse of laxatives, diuretics (water pills), enemas, fasts, and/or excessive exercise.

And these people - the vast majority of them women - run a terrible risk. Terri Schiavo, for example, collapsed when her potassium levels dipped frighteningly low. Her heart stopped, which likely caused decreased blood flow to her brain, leading to her brain damage.*

Johns Hopkins psychiatrist and eating disorder specialist Graham Redgrave, MD, has seen similar cases.

"I have known two people who died of electrolyte imbalance," Redgrave tells WebMD. "Neither were in treatment at the time. Both were actively engaged in disordered eating behavior. And I have treated patients walking around with a potassium level that, if you had it, it would be lethal. Their bodies had adapted. But it is not clear that this is a stable state. If life events become more stressful, and you engage in eating disorder behaviors, it is more likely you would decompensate and have one of these terrible events."

*Nobody realized that Terri Schiavo might suffer from bulimia until it was far too late. How can we recognize bulimia in our own loved ones? How can we help?*

Eating disorders are mental health problems. A person with a mental health problem starts to behave differently for no apparent reason, Graham says.

"It is really up to people who know the person well to notice those changing patterns of behavior," he says. "The reason is that eating disorders are conducted in secret. They are appropriately stigmatized. It is not normal to vomit after meals or to obsessively exercise or to not eat. People who engage in these behaviors will make excuses or lie. Sometimes it is very difficult to tell."

Most of us think we'd know if someone close to us was doing something as extreme as vomiting after every meal. But people with eating disorders aren't easily found out, says Rick Kilmer, PhD, clinical director of the Atlanta Center for Eating Disorders.

"People with bulimia find their behavior shameful or embarrassing and they will hide it at all costs and be very creative in hiding both bingeing and purging," Kilmer tells WebMD.

"It is something family members only gradually become suspicious of. They may notice evidence of vomiting, they may see a pattern of someone always disappearing after a meal, someone who always has a reason not to eat with other people or with the family. They may see wrappers for diuretics or laxatives. They may see evidence of large quantities of binge food hidden in the trunk of the car or below all the other garbage. And they may notice large quantities of food missing and nobody is admitting what happened to it."

Kilmer says there may also be physical and emotional cues:

Bloodshot, teary eyes 
A swollen face, particularly swollen jaws or throat 
Mood swings. "After someone has been through a binge or a purge they may be very isolative or moody or embarrassed," Kilmer says.

-Looking tired 
-A preoccupation with food and/or dieting 
-Body-image distortion. "The person is self-critical of their body or talking about wishing they could change or wishing they could have a certain plastic surgery, or a certain diet, or things that seem irrational or over-the-top to those around them," Kilmer says.

"If you suspect that you or one of your loved ones has an eating disorder, getting into treatment early is critically important," Redgrave says. "The earlier treatment is, the more chance there is for improvement. Without treatment, these things can be terrible."

Ignoring suspicious behavior or hoping it will go away won't work. Redgrave and Kilmer both advise telling a person you suspect of having an eating disorder that you know something is wrong. This should be done in a supportive way.

"Say, 'I am very concerned you may be hurting yourself,'" Kilmer advises. "Rather than confronting someone and telling them you think they have an eating disorder, it is better to say, 'I am concerned and wonder if you have some problems with food.' Tell them you love them and support them doing things in a healthy way. And tell them there are people that can help someone be happy and healthy without doing drastic and destructive things. Professionals can help them have a better relationship with food."

-------------------------------------------------------------------

*SOURCES: Graham Redgrave, MD, instructor in psychiatry, Johns Hopkins School of Medicine. Rick Kilmer, PhD, clinical director, Atlanta Center for Eating Disorders. Eating Disorders: Facts about Eating Disorders and the Search for Solutions, National Institute of Mental Health, 2001. The National Women's Health Information Center, Department of Health and Human Services. Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation[/b[*


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Michael Schiavo: Loving Husband or Monster?

The results of a 1991 bone scan indicate that Terri Schiavo had numerous broken bones in various stages of healing, including compression fractures, a broken back, pelvis, ankle, bone bruises and ossifications.

As national pro-life groups and prominent leaders converged in vigils outside Woodside Hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida, Terri Schiavo is inside the building in her bed, still hooked up to the feeding tube that has been center-focus of this so-called ?right-to-die? case for the past several years. Ms. Schiavo is profoundly disabled and cannot communicate with words at this time.

But she knows. She feels. There?s expression in those eyes. Just one look at her in a video with her mother and everyone except the Scarecrow on his way to Oz knows it, too.

Recently, another presumed ?brain-dead? woman made news in Kansas. In a coma after becoming the victim of a drunk driver, Sarah Scantlin snapped out of a twenty year silence and began to speak. Memories are now coming back to her. By legal definition, Miss Scantlin?s life is valid. Yesterday, it was not. Was she ever in a persistent vegetative state, or PVS? She?d respond to questions by blinking once for no, twice for yes, but since she couldn?t speak no one was ever sure she understood the questions.

That?s the problem. No one is ever sure. The only ones who claim to know what?s best for the profoundly disabled are those who seek to benefit the most by having them legally murdered.

On Monday, February 21, new hearings began before Judge Greer with regard to the Schiavo case. The Empire Journal reports that David Gibbs III, the attorney representing Terri?s parents Robert and Mary Schindler, will argue that new medical tests be ordered for Terri based upon a new brain imaging study published in the journal Neurology. These tests could determine whether Terri Schiavo is, in fact, in a PVS. Since Judge Greer believes she is, already ruled to have her killed and has thus far refused the admission of any medical evidence that would save Terri?s life, I?d be shocked to see him budge.

Greer has been acting in the dual role of judge and guardian ad litem. He previously denied a petition by Terri?s parents that their daughter be given a swallowing test, and has denied them the right to visit Terri. He continues to promote the interests of Michael Schiavo by refusing Terri the right to independent counsel, a right which even serial killers like Ted Bundy received.

Whenever people discuss euthanasia, you?ll always find those who will defend the odious practice. However, no one defends domestic violence. That leads to the 6 ft. 6 inch, 250 pound problem: Michael Schiavo. The evidence compiled against him suggests a history and pattern of domestic abuse against Terri and other women that is strong and significant. An immediate criminal investigation is warranted.

The main evidence comes from a bone scan taken on March 5, 1991. As Terri?s guardian, Michael Schiavo denied her family access to Terri?s records, the results of which were not made available until November, 2002. This scan indicated numerous broken bones in various stages of healing, including compression fractures, a broken back, pelvis, ankle, bone bruises and ossifications.

Board certified radiologist Dr. Walker read the scan in 1991 and interpreted the results as abnormal, which he attributed to either an accident or earlier trauma. Based on the remodeling process of her bones, Dr. Walker stated in his deposition that a) the injuries indicated by the scan occurred on or around the time that Terri Schiavo collapsed; b) the abnormalities on the bone scan were not typical of someone suffering cardiac arrest and collapsing to the floor, and c) the fractures indicated by the bone scan are not typical of patients bedridden only thirteen months. As recorded in Dr. Walker?s November 21, 2003 deposition, Terri might have been the victim of foul play via a blow to her body, being thrown into a sharp furniture corner, or assaulted with a blunt object.

On October 24, 2003, renowned forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden was interviewed by Greta van Susteren on Fox News. He disclosed that with low potassium and no elevated enzymes, it would be extremely rare for a young woman to collapse as Terri did from a heart attack. When asked what the bone injuries suggest to him, Dr. Baden replied, ?Some kind of trauma. The trauma can be from a fall, or the trauma can be from some kind of beating that she obtained from somebody somewhere. It?s something that should have been investigated in 1991 when these findings were found.?

Other medical testimonies are in agreement. One medical expert testified that a diagnosis of a heart attack was never made. Another testified that Terri?s rigid neck indicates she may have been the victim of strangulation. Psychiatrist and expert witness Carole E. Lieberman, M.D., M.P.H. offered preliminary thoughts and provided a chilling profile of Michael Schiavo as an abusive husband.

Prior to Terri?s collapse, there were serious financial problems in her marriage and her husband Michael tried to control her behavior. He was fired from six jobs in two years, some of which he held only two weeks. They often lived on her income, which Michael often spent on himself. He monitored her odometer and isolated her from her family and friends. On the day of her collapse, Michael and Terri had a bad fight after he accused her of spending too much money at the hairdresser.

Dr. Lieberman concludes: ?He (Michael) should most definitely be investigated as the perpetrator of the ?incident? that caused Terri?s collapse and her current condition.?

Michael Schiavo insists that Terri stated early in their marriage that she never would want to be kept on life support. Even if that were true, Terri is not on life support; she breathes on her own. Since Terri has no written will, everything Michael Schiavo says is hearsay. He violated numerous Florida statutes and the Americans for Disabilities Act by failing to perform his duties as his wife?s guardian, most notably by denying his disabled wife basic medical care as part of a malpractice settlement award he received.

However, of all Michael?s offensive actions against his wife, what I deem most suspicious was his decision to have Terri cremated immediately upon her demise. In all the documentation on this case, there is not a single account of Terri Schiavo having ever expressed a desire to be cremated. Michael?s excuse is to say that she wouldn?t want a standard burial because she ?doesn?t like bugs.? I?m not buying. The likely reason is that Michael has something to hide -- like the cause of her numerous bone injuries, perhaps? -- and he doesn?t want an autopsy to uncover any incriminating evidence.

So, what really happened on February 25, 1990? We know that Terri fell in her home and sustained serious injuries. We know that Michael Schiavo, who was trained in CPR, oddly did not administer CPR to his wife. We know for the past fifteen years his only mission has been to deny any rehabilitation for Terri.

Dr. Carole Lieberman observed, ?If Terri were to be allowed to die, as Michael has been desperately struggling to achieve for years, it could help him escape detection. This would be a grave miscarriage of justice.?

That?s exactly the way Michael Schiavo and the Florida judicial system want it.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Joe, where did you get that article? Curious....


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Pattern Of Domestic Abuse

Appears In Terri Schiavo Case; Call Renewed For Grand Jury

The night before Terri Schiavo was found face down in her Florida home under mysterious circumstances, her best friend says Terri had had a fight with her husband, Michael Schiavo and that she had talked about divorce.

In testimony given in proceedings in the Sixth Judicial Circuit Court before Probate Court judge George W. Greer, Terri?s best friend Jackie Rhodes related under oath that Michael Schiavo was upset because Terri had spent $80 on her hair that day.

Hours later she received a phone call that Terri Schiavo was in the emergency room.

That was fifteen years ago on Feb. 25, 1990.

Only Terri Schiavo can tell what really happened that night.

Maybe that?s why Michael Schiavo wants her dead and cremated without an autopsy.

For the past 10 years, he has been battling Terri?s parents, Mary and Robert Schindler Sr. in the Florida courts trying to end Terri?s life by withdrawing the feeding tube that provides her nutrition and hydration. Removal of the tube will cause the brain damaged woman, now 41, to die by starvation and may destroy the evidence of an alleged crime and any chance of her recovery to speak and point and accusing finger at him.

There have been repeated allegations of criminal wrongdoing in the case and violations of state statutes in regard to the protection of vulnerable and disabled adults.

Repeated demands for a criminal investigation into the matter have fallen on deaf ears with Pinellas and Pasco County state attorney Bernie McCabe claiming that the statute of limitations had passed, even though there is evidence that additional alleged criminal wrongdoing may have occurred in the case.

Filed Complaint, requesting investigation and subsequent response by the Office of Mr. Bernie McCabe, State Attorney, Pinellas & Pasco Counties, Florida Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida

Date of Complaint: Tuesday, June 3, 2003

Request: Office of the State Attorney to open an investigating based on the following:

1.) Evidence of Michael Schiavo?s possible domestic abuse, and attempted murder,

2.) Michael Schiavo?s perjured testimony and subsequent fraud on the court stemming from malpractice trial and his misuse of Terri?s intended trust,

3.) The sealed finances of Terri?s medical trust fund.

Note: Complaint was filed with over 20 pages of supporting documentation verifying the need for investigation.

Date of Response: Thursday, June 12, 2003, by Assistant State Attorney Robert Lewis

In a phone call to Terri?s father, Robert Schindler, Mr. Lewis concluded that there are no crimes to investigate any further based on the following:

1.) Mr. Lewis read Michael Schiavo's malpractice transcripts and even though Schiavo vowed to care for Terri in the future, he is permitted to change his mind,

2.) Posting Do Not Resuscitate order is normal for patients like Terri,

3.) Perjury at trial is beyond statute of limitations,

4.) Terri?s bills are being paid and therefore there is no need to look into the finances,

5.) Bone scan may show injuries, but if Schaivo beat Terri and strangled her, it is beyond the statute of limitations.

CAREGIVERS ALLEGE ABUSE

However, with affidavits of several caregivers and nurses alleging abuse and neglect of Terri by Michael Schiavo as recent as 2003 and other alleged incidents, there exists probable cause of alleged crimes for which the statutes of limitations have not expired. http://www.theempirejournal.com/greer_s ... ticles.htm

Based on affidavit of Ms. Rhodes as well as several female friends of Michael Schiavo, there appears to be a pattern of domestic abuse and perhaps even violence with at least one of the women saying that Schiavo had stalked her after she had broken off a relationship with him.

He has refused to divorce Terri even though he announced his engagement in 1997 to Jodi Centonze with whom he has two children.

Dr. Carole Liberman, MD, PPH, psychiatrist/expert witness, has issued an opinion that Michael Schiavo fits the profile of a wife abuser. http://www.theempirejournal.com/021005b ... vene_i.htm

Rhodes had worked with Terri at the St. Petersburg office of Prudential Insurance Company, first meeting her in May, 1988. She said they socialized and that she would often pick up Terri on Saturday to go shopping because Michael Schiavo monitored the amount of miles she put on the car.

Schiavo was recently unemployed and the couple was having financial problems. Rhodes testified that he frequently called her at work and that they argued on the phone about his working and money.

She said she last spoke with Terri on Feb. 24, 1990, after Terri had been for a hair appointment. She said she ?was very, very upset when I was talking to her. It sounded like she had been crying. I asked her if she was okay. She said she had had a fight with Michael, that he was extremely upset with her because she had spent?..$80 on her hair that day to stay blond?.

?So I asked her if she wanted me to come over. She didn?t seem like her normal, jovial self. She said that?s okay. I?m going over to Bobby?s (her brother)?I already talked to him and am going to go over as soon as we get off the phone?.

Bobby Schindler has also testified that Terri had talked to him about divorcing Michael as has her sister, Suzanne. http://www.zimp.org/stuff

Rhodes said that early the next day, on Feb. 25, 1990, she received a phone call from a work associate informing her that Terri had collapsed at her home and was in the hospital?..she had been taken by paramedics to the hospital and wasn?t doing very well?.

She said that the Schindlers, other family members and Michael Schiavo were at the hospital when she arrived. She said she knew that Michael knew CPR and she had asked him if he had performed it on Terri. He said no. He had only called the paramedics after being instructed to do so by Terri?s father.

Rhodes said she had attended the malpractice trial which later followed in 1992 when Michael Schiavo sued the general practitioner and gynecologist who had been treating Terri. As soon as she left the courtroom on one occasion, Michael?s malpractice attorney had followed her and told her it ?wouldn?t help the case if she testified that Michael and Terri were talking about getting a divorce.

?If I?m asked that question and that is the correct answer, that is the answer I?m going to give?, she told him.

She testified that there was a lot of mental abuse in the relationship, Michael towards Terri. She said Terri had talked about getting a divorce on several occasions and that they had talked about getting an apartment together. (Jackie Rhodes testimony)

Although the police report taken early Feb. 25, 1990, by the St. Petersburg Police Department indicates that the incident should be routed to the homicide division, it was not and no criminal investigation of the matter has ever been conducted. (police report)

The report says the incident occurred at 5:40 a.m., the police were dispatched at 6:11 a.m. because of her age and the incident was unusual in nature. Terri was found unconscious in the doorway of the bathroom, face down. The only witness present was Michael Schiavo.

It was not until 2002 that it was revealed that a bone scan had been done on Terri in 1991 which showed broken bones in healing stages and it had been concluded that she had a ?history of trauma?. http://www.theempirejournal.com/alleged ... ida_of.htm

TOLD BROTHER SHE WANTED DIVORCE

Terri?s brother, Bobby says that ?several weeks prior to Terri?s collapse, Terri had a breakdown at a Bennigans Restaurant. It was the first time Terri had ever discussed how unhappy she was in her relationship with Michael, although it was suspected by her demeanor when she was around Michael.

?I remember that we were sitting and having dinner with Michael, his brother Brian, and Terri asked me to go with her to the restroom?, Bobby says. ?Just outside the restroom in the hallway, Terri turned to me and started to cry. I asked her what was wrong and she said that she wanted to divorce Michael. I remember asking if she spoke to mom and dad about this, and Terri was adamant about not letting my father know how unhappy she was. Terri was always very protective of my father, never wanting to upset him with any of her personal problems.

?I didn?t know what to say to Terri other than to try and comfort her?, her brother says. ? I remember being taken back how much resentment she had in her voice when she spoke about Michael and how unhappy she was being married to him. She had a tough time settling down and kept repeating to me, ?Bobby, I wish I had the guts to divorce him because I would in a second.?

?This was the only time that Terri spoke to me about getting divorced from Michael. It wasn?t too long after this conversation that Terri collapsed.

According to a report in the December, 2004 issue of ?Victim?s Advocate? of the Florida Justice Coalition, written by Nancy McGowan, within 48 hours of the collapse, Michael Schiavo convinced his in-laws that he should be in charge of Terri?s medical needs to expedite decisions about her care.

Michael later testified at the malpractice trial that he would ?take care of Terri for the rest of her life" and said that he was convinced ?she may live about 50 years?, according to the trial transcripts.

After the jury awarded nearly $1.6 million, monies to provide Terri with rehabilitation, instead of spending the money providing the rehab services, according to McGowan within weeks he placed a ?do not resuscitate? order on her medical chart. When the Schindlers asked when the rehab would start, according to McGowan, Michael decided not to permit disclosure to them regarding Terri?s medical condition.

In October 2002, Michael Schiavo petitioned Judge Greer to have Terri's body cremated immediately upon her death saying that Terri was always afraid of bugs and such, and for this reason would have wanted to be cremated.

Attorneys with the Thomas More Legal Center, pro-life law firm, says that cremating will destroy any evidence investigators could use to ascertain whether Terri is a victim of domestic abuse.

COULD OPEN INVESTIGATION NOW

Attorneys say that evidence, along with a documented lack of medical care of Terri Schiavo, gives Gov. Jeb Bush and the U.S. Department of Justice probable cause to immediately open an investigation into the Schiavo case.

Following the 2000 trial before Greer during which Michael Schiavo, his brother, Scott and a sister-in-law, Joan testified that they had heard Terri say some 15 years prior in 1984 that she would not want to be kept alive by artificial means should anything happen to her, Greer issued a court order on Michael?s petition to removing the feeding tube.

During a radio show on April 25, 2001, when the Schiavo case was being discussed when Terri?s feeding tube had been removed the first time, Cindy Brasher Shook, a former girl-friend of Michael Schiavo?s, called into the show and said that Michael had told her he didn?t know what his wife?s wishes were.

April 2001, Transcript of Cindy (Brasher) Shook?s Radio Interview w/Carrie Kirkland

Cindy: Umm, I?m, I?m sort of personal with this case because I was the first girl that Michael Schiavo dated after his wife had this heart attack, its about three years after she had her heart attack?

CK: Right.

Cindy: ?and he used to go visit her at the nursing home while we were dating ? he was really into taking care of ?it was before he ever filed his lawsuit, and he used to stay there a lot longer than he told me because?he said that, he?s, he?s a real loud guy, he would go through the nursing home and he said immediately, umm, as soon as he got near the door her head was already looking at the door because she would recognize his voice?

CK: Right.

Cindy: ?and she would start crying when he got ready to leave, umm, and he was like, she has ruined years of my life, and she has taken all this time, and all, and, and upset my life with this, this is all her fault, and ah, just a complete change?

CK: Really?

Cindy: ?and, umm, yeah and it just, I was just like, I don?t even know who you are, but get away from me?

CK: How long did you date him?

Cindy: I dated him for a year.

CK: I talked to somebody else who knows the family personally last time I did this show and, on this topic, and they that, ah, there was little bit of an emotional abusive relationship going on with them, do you know anything about that?

Cindy: I, I don?t know from her, from him, but she was kinda heavy as a child and?

CK: And he would call her fat and that?s why she was so anorexic and bulimic, right?

Cindy: She was bulimic, and there?s no way that somebody can be taking all those lax?Mikes very into, he very possessive, he?s very jealous, he stalked me at, at my, at where I worked after I stopped dating, when he would get mad at me, he would tell me I would rather be with her laying in that bed at the nursing home than you, I mean he could be the most incredibly mean person?

CK: What a nice guy!

Cindy: Yeah?

CK: What a nice guy!

Cindy: ?want to take a shower every time that I even see or hear any of this going on?

CK: Geez!

Cindy: I?m just sick.

Schindlers? attorney, Patricia Anderson had immediately contacted Greer regarding Shook?s statement on the radio show, saying that it was evidence that Schiavo had fabricated the story about his wife?s statement.

LAWSUIT CHARGED SCHIAVO WITH PERJURY

Greer said that more than a year had passed since the 2000 trial and his order and that it was too late for new evidence. Schindlers? attorney immediately filed a new lawsuit charging Schiavo with perjury. Judge Frank Quesada ordered Terri?s feeding resumed.

It wasn?t too late at that time to bring perjury charges against Michael Schiavo if it had been investigated and found that he had indeed committed perjury at the 2000 trial.

George Felos, Michael?s attorney, maintained that when Shook had said that when Michael had told her he didn?t know what his wife?s wishes were, she was referring to the issue of home care versus nursing home.

Shook had become involved with Michael Schiavo in 1991, about a year and a half after Terri?s collapse. They reportedly contacted a realtor about purchasing a home and in May, 1992, Schiavo reportedly had Terri?s two pet cats euthanized because of his plans to move in with Shook and her dog. However, as he moved towards the upcoming November, 1992 malpractice trial, Schiavo instead moved into his parent?s home in 1992.

Soon after Shook?s call-in to the radio station, her parents contacted private investigator who interviewed Shook whose married name is now Brasher. Shook had to be subpoenaed because of her immense fear of Michael Schiavo and was deposed by attorneys for both sides on May 8, 2001.

Thereafter, Terri?s brother, Bobby spoke with Cindy Shook who relayed a paralyzing fear of Michael Schiavo.

Phone conversation between Cindy Shook and Bob Schindler Jr., 
April 2001
?I started by speaking with Investigator Kim. Kim informed me that she was presently with Cindy Shook at her home and has spoken to Cindy at length about events and conversation that occurred between her and Michael Schiavo when the two of them were dating.

?I asked Kim if Cindy would speak to me. Kim informed me that Cindy would but that she is not going to come forward because of her existing fear she has for Michael.

?Cindy then came to the phone. I initially thanked her for taking the time to speak with Kim. I asked if she would speak to our lawyers regarding this information. She told me absolutely not! I asked her why? She told me that Michael is insane and she is so scared that if she did speak about this, that he would cause harm to her husband and kids. I said to her, ?Cindy, if you have information that will save my sister?s life, then it is your responsibility to come forward.? She said that she understood why we were asking her to do this and understood our love for Terri but her children?s safety was more important than what would happen to Terri.

SAYS MICHAEL SCHIAVO STALKED HER

?Cindy then went on to briefly tell me about their relationship when her and Michael were dating. ?He was insane,? she told me. (Cindy stated this several times throughout our conversation) After we broke up, ?He stalked me,? Cindy said. She had to get her husband (boyfriend at the time) involved so Michael would stop stalking her. She told me that Michael had tried to run her off the road on one occasion. She also included that at one time she thought the only way he was going to stop harassing her was by getting a restraining order against Michael.

?I said to her that we would do anything we could so that Michael would not go near her and her family if she agreed to testify. She said that no one could ever guarantee that Michael, at some point, would not do something to her family, particularly her children. She continually stated that, ?You have no idea the person (Michael) you?re dealing with.? She explained to me that if she were single she would be there for my family but because of all the money involved, she was convinced, that Michael would retaliate against her family.

?I asked Cindy, ?what is it I could say that would convince you that you need to testify.? I tried to explain to her that by knowing what you know and letting him get away with it that she was essentially letting Michael get away with murdering my sister. She told me there was nothing that I can say that would ever convince her otherwise and she would not testify to any of this, no matter what my family did to try and get her to testify. In fact, she vowed to forget everything if we subpoenaed her. She apologized and said she felt awful but her family meant more to her than anything, even my sister dying. At that point I sensed Cindy was getting upset. I said that I hope she would change her mind and asked her to put Kim back on the phone.

?When I spoke to Kim, I told her that I could not believe how scared Cindy was of Michael. It was frightening. Kim agreed.

Excerpts: May 8, 2001 deposition

Cindy Shook describing Schiavo?s possessiveness.

"he?s very jealous. He stalked me at my?at where I worked after I stopped dating?when he would get mad at me he would tell me, I would rather be laying in bed in the nursing home with her than with you. I mean he can be the most incredibly mean person"

When asked if she were afraid that Michael would physically harm her or if he would harm children.

"I am concerned about retaliation because I have a child -I have children and a husband. I know him, I know what he told me I said he could be a very mean person."

She spoke of how Schiavo stalked her for close to a year after the breakup and that she received repeated phone calls.

"He came on the floor looking for me several times. I felt it was out of character for him to get a job as an orderly at the hospital That was concerning to me. When he would come up to the floor looking for her she was not scared the first time but later was scared.

In town I would look up when I was driving?not at my work- she would look up in the rear view mirror and there would be Michael Schiavo. I would look up and he would be behind me in traffic. It continued for several months after he didn?t work at the hospital. She would change lanes, try to make a turn and he would do the same. He did this about ten times.

One time he was behind me in traffic he got next to me in a two-lane going the same way, and he changed lanes basically right on top of where I was at, and I had to swerve not to be hit. I had to swerve off the road. Michael ran me off the road. I considered it as stalking, dangerous and guessed potentially life threatening."

Cindy thought about getting a restraining order. She talked to an off duty police officer in her building

They discussed marriage. She said Schiavo asked what would you do if I asked you to marry me. He never discussed getting a divorce.

Cindy said Schiavo got angry when asked questions about Terri saying:

"this had destroyed his life and he was being robed of a normal life."

Regarding Terri?s care, according to Cindy Shook, Michael Schiavo said

"How the hell should I know we never spoke about this, my God I was only 25 years old. How the hell should I know? We were young. We never spoke of this." See http://www.zimp.org/stuff

DIDN?T KNOW WHAT TO DO

The day prior to interviewing Shook, on May 7, 2001, the investigator had interviewed Trudy Capone, a registered nurse who had been good friends with Michael Schiavo but said they were not romantically involved.

 She said that Michael had confided in her all the time. 
?I will tell you one thing, Michael never knew what Terri wanted. He never knew. He would say to me all the time, I don?t know what to do. I don?t know what to do with her. I just don?t know?

She said that Michael went ?crazy? on her when she ended the ?friendship? because he was calling her so much and she needed space.

?The trial money was everything to him and something happened to him once he received the settlement (in 1992)?. she said. She said he would often say mean things to her.

She said he told her all the time that Terri?s parents didn?t want him to have the money and that they were mad because he was going to get it all and not them.

?In the beginning I felt like Michael really did love Terri but after time passed, he just wanted his own life and money?, Capone said. (Capone affidavit)

In November, 2002, Greer and Felos said that claims of abuse and neglect had been raised in three prior petitions, all denied by the court. Greer has consistently denied the Schindler family an evidentiary hearing in the matter and appears to have engaged in an obstruction of justice by refusing to examine evidence instead of fulfilling his role of impartial arbiter and finder of truth.

Ken Connor, attorney for Gov. Bush, said during the challenge to Terri?s Law, that Felos and Schiavo were ?terrified of trying this case before a jury. They know that they will never be able to persuade a jury that this was Terri?s wishes under the circumstances. The evidence simply will not support that. No reasonable jury, no jury of ordinary men and women vested with good common sense, would ever accept this preposition?.

Numerous medical experts believe that Terri Schiavo?s injuries were the result of domestic violence and have called upon domestic violence and abuse organizations nationwide to become involved. The Florida Coalition for Domestic Violence can be contacted at 850-425-2749 http://www.fcadv.org

FACTS YOU MAY NOT KNOW ABOUT TERRI SCHIAVO'S CASE

Michael Schiavo has authority to make all decisions for Terri Schindler Schiavo because he is her court-appointed guardian, not because he is her husband. 
Michael not only seeks to remove Terri?s feeding tube. He also continues to deny consent for Terri to take food by mouth, or even to have a swallowing test. 
Dr. Ronald Cranford, who testified on behalf of Michael in the case to remove Terri?s food and fluids, said that patients like Terri can take food by mouth. 
Cranford has said that he would consider spoon-feeding to be "medical treatment." 
Cranford has said that spoon-feeding is denied because it "would be totally inconsistent" with what was wanted (e.g. the patient?s death). 
For more than three years, Michael has refused to allow Terri to be taken outdoors to feel fresh air, sunshine or a cool breeze. 
Michael continues to suppress media access to videotapes that clearly show Terri responding to others. 
In 1992, Michael filed and won a malpractice case in which a significant award was made for Terri?s rehabilitation and therapy. The award was based, in part, on expert testimony that she would live a normal life span. 
During the time he was seeking the malpractice award, Michael never indicated that Terri would want to die if she were severely disabled. 
Michael has refused to permit any of the money from the malpractice award to be used for Terri?s rehabilitation or therapy. Instead, most of the money was used for lawyers Michael hired to help end Terri's life. 
Not long after Terri's injury, Michael melted down her wedding and engagement rings to make a ring for himself. 
Michael has moved on with his life. He is in a long term intimate relationship with another woman with whom he has two children. 
Terri?s family -- her parents, her brother and her sister ? has begged Michael to let them care for Terri. He has refused. 
Terri?s family -- her parents, her brother and her sister ? has begged Michael to let Terri have a swallowing test. He has refused. 
Terri?s family -- her parents, her brother and her sister ? has begged Michael to give Terri the opportunity to take food by mouth. He has refused.


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## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

For you who all you don't want read those lengthy articles, here are three abridged points to the case:

terri schiavo collapsed in the middle of the night and her heart stopped, believed to be a result of an eating disorder. her husband called the paramedics but by the time they arrived she had already suffered severe brain damage.

Michael Schiavo's brother and sister attested to the quotes of her not wanting to live by artificial means. As her eating disorder may suggest, she was very concerned with her appearance which the Schiavos presented as evidence that she wouldn't want people seeing her like she is.

When the feeding tube was removed the first time, it was later reinserted after one of Michael's ex-girlfriends called on a radio show and proclaimed that he told her than he didn't even know if Terri ever really said "she didn't want to have to live by artifical means." It got to the courts and the tube was reinserted.


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Your opinion doesnt suprise me. I expected it. I think the husband is a piece of slime and I dont believe anything that has come from him or his family. Fact is nobody will ever know the real truth and thats very convienent for the husband.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2005)

There are very few clear cut VICTIMS in these situations. I find it fascinating that this woman who clearly had borderline traits and spent most of her life in an inner battle with food/health and control (her husband's control over her, her own chronic status as victim, rather than leaving him, perpetuating the victim role, etc.), now has ended up in a perfect macrocosm of her inner drama - her family, religious leaders and the federal government are now playing out the drama of "feed me now/feed me not" for her.

THe husband may well have been abusive. And she may well have contributed to the decades-long drama. They sued the doctors for not "taking over" for her - an adult capable of making her own choices...it is not the medical establishment's place to intervene and FORCE treatment on an eating disorder patient who is not asking for help. We're treating adults like children if we condone that, and God help us if we keep suing people for not doing so effectively.

Mental states and disorders do cripple us, clearly they do. But we are really in treacherous waters when we start collecting millions in lawsuits because a physician didn't FORCE someone to get care.

This is a complicated drama that was being played out for probably most of Ms. Shiavo's life. Her husband was one of the players.

No easy answers. Be careful of calling anyone totally innocent and anyone else totally evil. Life, despite our desperate efforts to think so, is very rarely so neat and clear-cut.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Janine, Woah, interesting analogy or metaphor.

I can't say I blame either Terri, her husband, or her parents. This is so complicated. And an eating disorder is an illness. It's sort of like saying that Nicole Brown Simpson deserved to be murdered by O.J. because she was really a battered wife. *And I know that's not what you're saying, I like the analogy.* 8) And also, this is comparing apples and oranges...

This IS a slippery slope. There is another article in the NYTimes re: this, about this continuing drama. I put the link. I don't know if it will work for those who aren't registered. You don't have to pay for it (at least for now, they may start charging :? )

Anyway, I highlighted important stuff so there isn't a huge article. I talked with my husband again last night. We reiterated each others wishes, yet even then, we don't have clear answers. When DO you decide in certain circumstances if yet another procedure should be tried. We went through this with our CAT. He had to be put down. People who have to make these decisions with their own children. That has to be the worst.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/27/n...br=&adxnnlx=1111939318-lEWi9eziycAD9axcTWtB4w

**Excellent article in today's New York Times (online)... I have 
selected specific paragraphs vs. posting the whole article. I 
agree it's difficult to sit and read the whole thing.**

*Even as Doctors Say Enough, Families Fight to Prolong Life
By PAM BELLUCK

Published: March 27, 2005*

*BOSTON, March 26 - "For years, when families and hospitals 
fought over how to treat critically ill patients, families often 
pressed to let their loved ones die, while hospitals tried to keep 
them alive.

But in the last decade or so, things have changed.
Now, doctors and ethicists say that when hospitals and families 
clash, conflicts often pit families who want to continue life 
support and aggressive medical care against doctors who believe it 
is time to stop.*
...............

*When asked in polls about Terri Schiavo, the brain-damaged 
Florida woman, 60 percent to 70 percent of respondents said they 
would remove Ms. Schiavo's feeding tube and, in similar 
circumstances, would choose not to keep themselves or a spouse 
alive.*

.............
*"About 15 years ago, at least 80 percent of the cases were 
right-to-die kinds of cases," said Dr. Lachlan Forrow, the director 
of ethics programs at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in 
Boston, who handles 50 to 100 end-of-life conflicts a year. "Today, 
it's more like at least 80 percent of the cases are the other 
direction: family members who are pushing for continued or more 
aggressive life support and doctors and nurses who think that 
that's wrong."*
................
*But at least three states, Texas, Virginia and California, have 
laws that let doctors refuse treatment against the wishes of a 
family, or even a patient's advanced directive in certain 
circumstances. In other states, like Wisconsin, doctors are seeking 
such laws.

"When they're asking for things that become absolutely nonsensical, 
then you don't have to do it any more," said Dr. Kay Heggestad, who 
is the chairwoman of the ethics committee of the Wisconsin Medical 
Society and is helping draft a "futile care" bill in her state. "If 
someone marches into my office with normal kidney function and 
demands dialysis, I am not required to offer that."*

........................
*Recently, several life-support requests have landed in 
court.*

Salt Lake City - 6-year-old *Jesse Koochin*

Boston -doctors considered it so inhumane to keep alive *Barbara 
Howe, a 79-year-old woman with Lou Gehrig's disease, that the 
chairman of the ethics committee wrote in June 2003, "this is 
Massachusetts General Hospital, not Auschwitz."*

Orlando, Fla. - *Hanford Pinette wife wanted him to stay on 
life support even though his living will said he would not want to. 
*

*"Medical advances give people greater expectations, and they're 
not willing to accept that death is inevitable; somebody somewhere 
can save Mom," said Dr. Forrow, of Beth Israel in Boston, said. 
"They have way more belief that the decision about that is partly 
up to them: my business, my body, my mom's body. Fifteen years ago, 
it was the doctor's purview alone."*

*Thomas W. Mayo, an associate professor at Southern Methodist 
University law school and an author of the Texas law, cited another 
reason.

"There are more specialists with less contact with the family," Mr. 
Mayo said. "As patient volumes have increased and reimbursement 
rates cut to the bone, there's less incentive for everyone in the 
system to provide that. When a stranger says, 'Well, there's 
nothing we can do other than turn things off,' you're hearing that 
from someone you have no reason to believe other than he's wearing 
a white coat."*

...........................

*In the absence of laws like Texas's, hospitals often accede to a 
family's wishes because they fear being sued.*

*There is also discomfort with determining when health care is 
futile.

"It is controversial even within the bioethics community," Mr. Mayo 
said. "There are times when medicine has nothing more to offer and 
we're not obligated to offer it, but when you go to implement that, 
it gives people the heebie-jeebies."*


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2005)

I'd want to be kept alive. I imagine you could have some pretty badass dreams in a "persistent vegetative state."

From a philosophical and legal standpoint it is a big tangled mess, but I fail to see what other than money could be lost by keeping her alive. Yeah, nobody wants to live life like that, but once you're in that state, whose to say you'd care?


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## enigma (Feb 18, 2005)

*DeLay's family faced end-of-life ordeal in 1988*

By Walter F. Roche Jr. and Sam Howe Verhovek

Los Angeles Times

CANYON LAKE, Texas - A family tragedy unfolding in a Texas hospital during the fall of 1988 was a private ordeal -- without judges, emergency sessions of Congress or the sort of debate raging outside Terri Schiavo's Florida hospice.

The patient then was a 65-year-old drilling contractor, badly injured in an accident at his home. Among the family standing vigil at Brooke Army Medical Center was a grieving junior congressman -- U.S. Rep. Tom DeLay, R-Sugar Land.

More than 16 years ago, far from the political passions that have defined the Schiavo controversy, the DeLay family endured its own wrenching end-of-life crisis. The man in a coma, kept alive by intravenous lines and a ventilator, was DeLay's father, Charles Ray DeLay.

Then freshly re-elected to a third term in the House, DeLay waited all but helpless for the verdict of doctors.

Today, as House Majority Leader, DeLay has teamed with Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., to champion political intervention in the Schiavo case. He pushed emergency legislation through Congress to shift the legal case from Florida state courts to the federal judiciary.

And he is among the strongest advocates of keeping the woman, who doctors say has been in a persistent vegetative state for 15 years, connected to her feeding tube. DeLay has denounced Schiavo's husband, as well as judges, for committing what he calls "an act of barbarism" in removing the tube.

In 1988, however, there was no such fiery rhetoric as the congressman quietly joined the sad family consensus to let his father die.

"There was no point to even really talking about it," Maxine DeLay, the congressman's 81-year-old mother, recalled in an interview last week. "There was no way he [Charles] wanted to live like that. Tom knew, we all knew, his father wouldn't have wanted to live that way."

Doctors advised that Charles DeLay would "basically be a vegetable," said the congressman's aunt, JoAnne DeLay.

*A family's decision*

When Charles DeLay's kidneys failed, the family decided against connecting him to a dialysis machine. "Extraordinary measures to prolong life were not initiated," said his medical report, citing "agreement with the family's wishes." His bedside chart carried the instruction: "Do Not Resuscitate."

On Dec. 14, 1988, the senior DeLay "expired with his family in attendance."

"The situation faced by the congressman's family was entirely different than Terri Schiavo's," said Dan Allen, a spokesman for DeLay, who declined requests for an interview.

"The only thing keeping her alive is the food and water we all need to survive. His father was on a ventilator and other machines to sustain him," Allen said.

There were also these similarities: Both were severely brain damaged. Both were incapable of surviving without continuing medical assistance. Both were said to have expressed a desire to be spared life sustained by machine. And neither left a living will.

This previously unpublished account of the majority leader's personal brush with life-ending decisions was assembled from court files, medical records and interviews with relatives.

*Fatal accident*

It was a pleasant late afternoon in the Hill Country on Nov. 17, 1988.

At the home of Charles and Maxine DeLay, set on a limestone bluff of cedars and live oaks above Turkey Cove, it was also a moment of triumph: Charles and his brother, Jerry DeLay, had just finished work on a new backyard tram -- an elevatorlike device to carry passengers from the house down a 200-foot slope to the blue-green waters of Canyon Lake.

The two men called for their wives to hop aboard. Charles pushed the button and the maiden run began. Within seconds, a horrific screeching noise echoed across the still lake, "a sickening sound," a neighbor said. The tram was in trouble.

Maxine, seated up front in the four-passenger tram, said her husband repeatedly tried to engage the emergency brake, but it jumped the track and slammed into a tree, scattering passengers.

Charles, who was hurled head-first into a tree, clearly was in serious condition.

But Charles DeLay hung on.

He was airlifted by helicopter to the medical center at Fort Sam Houston. Admission records show that he arrived with multiple injuries, including broken ribs and a brain hemorrhage.

Tom DeLay flew to his father's bedside where, along with his two brothers and a sister, they joined Maxine. In the weeks that followed, the congressman made repeated trips from Washington, D.C., his family said.

"He had no consciousness that I could see," said Karl Braddick, now 86, a family friend.

Maxine DeLay agreed that she was never aware of any consciousness on her husband's part during the long days of her bedside vigil -- with one possible exception.

"Whenever Randy walked into the room, his heart, his pulse rate would go up a little bit," she said of their son, Randall, who lives near Houston.

Infections complicated the senior DeLay's fight for life. His organs began to fail. The family and physicians confronted the dreaded choice that so many other Americans have faced: to make heroic efforts, or to let the end come.

"Daddy did not want to be a vegetable," said Alvina "Vi" Skogen, a former sister-in-law of the congressman.

The preliminary decision to withhold dialysis and other treatments fell to Maxine along with Randall and her daughter Tena -- and, his mother, said, "Tom went along." He raised no objection, she said.

Relatives said they prayed.

Jerry DeLay "felt terribly about the accident," said his wife, JoAnne DeLay. "He prayed that if [Charles] couldn't have quality of life that God would take him -- and that is exactly what he did."

Charles Ray DeLay died at 3:17 a.m., according to his death certificate, 27 days after plummeting down the hillside.

*'There was no chance ...'*

Today, Maxine DeLay lives alone in a Houston senior citizen residence. Like much of the country, she follows news developments in the Schiavo case and her congressman son's recently prominent role.

She acknowledges questions that compare her family's decision in 1988 to the Schiavo conflict today with a slight smile. "It's certainly interesting, isn't it?"

Like her son, she believes there might be hope for Terri Schiavo's recovery. That's what makes her family's experience different, she says. Charles had no hope.

"There was no chance he was ever coming back," she said.


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## enigma (Feb 18, 2005)

*Mind shapes what is seen in video*

By Allen G. Breed and Matt Crenson

The Associated Press

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - They say film doesn't lie. But does that mean it tells the truth?

The public sees fleeting videotaped images of Terri Schiavo, appearing to many to turn toward her mother's voice and smile. They hear what sound like moans and laughter. They watch her head move up and down, seemingly following the progress of a brightly colored Mickey Mouse balloon. And often they ask: How could anyone conclude but that she is aware of her surroundings?

The answer lies not so much within Schiavo's brain as in the minds of those who observe her. As social beings, humans are hard-wired to examine another's face for clues to what the person behind it is thinking. They naturally associate vocal tones with specific moods.

"I can understand that because I have examined scores, if not hundreds, of people with this condition," says Dr. Leon Prockop, a professor of neurology at the University of South Florida who has reviewed the brain-damaged woman's CAT scans.

At first, he says, his "natural emotional desire to be optimistic and hopeful" made him interpret movements and facial expressions as purposeful. But after long experience, Prockop says, "I came to realize that my emotional reaction was understandable as a human being, but was not an intellectual assessment."

The public has seen only a tiny portion of the more than four hours of videotape shot during the past seven years of litigation over whether to keep Schiavo on a feeding tube. Even doctors who have agreed that she is in a persistent vegetative state have admitted to being swayed, if only briefly, by the now familiar images that have been played and replayed on national television.

During testimony in a 2002 hearing, court-appointed neurologist Peter Bambakidis acknowledged that seeing the videotapes of Schiavo's mother kissing and speaking with her gave him pause at first.

"Yes, that was a source of the concern on my part: How does one interpret a situation like that," he said. He even acknowledged that she did track a Mickey Mouse balloon with her eyes in one clip.

But Bambakidis noted that such visual tracking "commonly occurs spontaneously in people in a persistent vegetative state." After reviewing her brain scans and visiting with her, he came to the conclusion that she had no hope of recovery.


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Dear Dreamer, 
I havent had access to the internet this week, so while I do, i want to weigh in on this. Legally, I beleive that this case is on dubious grounds and sets a precedent which we will come to regret in the next five to ten years. Medically, I beleive it is on even more dubious grounds. Morally, I think its fairly reprehensible. If her medical condition was more severe than it is, the removal of artificial devices could be justifiable and even preferable. But it isnt. Let me try to address each these categories as succintly as possible.

Legal Precedent

Where a court must rely on circumstantial evidence or hearsay, there is a clause in most states which demands that a "clear and convincing" case must be made in order for a case to even be heard. This is causing quite a stir at my university's school of law, as a 7 year old bit of hearsay without any other credible source, which in most cases would be questioned as a "false memory", has been allowed to virtually rule the case. In most other cases, more would be made of whether this is what the husband "wants" to remember, and why he had not followed through with this wish immediately. Secondly, the case hinges upon the idea that if her husband is telling the unmitigated truth, that she is actually in the persistent vegetative state to which she supposedly objected. This was given to the federal courts last week, with a clear injunction by Congress for the federal court not to rely upon state court proceedings, documents, or rulings to make their decision about her state of mind. In an unusual decision, the judge refused to review the case with any of the more recent experts who have examined her and again relied on the state court's decision as precedent, which was not only a direct violation of the mandate, but a move which makes me think that even the courts have a predetermined view of her case. The case is weak and her death is becoming a way for people in every walk of life to express their views, rather than ascertain the truth.

Medical Scrutiny

In a PVS, persistent vegetative state, there should be no response to outer stimuli. You wont know that you arent being fed, you dont feel pain. The conscious pain centers arent working. At first, I thought that the parents were seeing only what they wanted to in Terry.PVS patients do have reflexive, unconscious actions. But I've seen the videos of the neurologist working her up ( ie, asking her to track a balloon abover her, giving her painful stimuli) and I find it really, really hard to beleive that these are reflex actions only. She has a visible smile on her face when kissed by her mother, and laughs when she hears Christmas music. Unless they are timing these things to a reflex reaction she has, and I dont know of any smiling reflex, it is pretty darn hard to beleive this woman isnt suffering through her starvation. The argument goes that a PVS patient wont feel, thus its not causing her suffering. And to say that she isnt going to improve just doesnt hold true with the science of 2005. Honestly, I can totally beleive that her initial diagnosis of PVS was true the year in which her brain was without oxygen for 20 minutes. When the doctors said, in '92 that she would never improve, they were using the science of 1992. At that time it was common sense that brain cells just dont grow back. Fast forward to 2000-2001. Scientists find evidence that the hippocampus of the brain grows back cells even after physical injury. Based on this, all kind of supportive therapies are popping up. Hyperbaric oxygen chambers are one of the most promising, as they drastically increase oxygen saturation and improve brain cell repair and growth. The woman who died of Mad Cow disease in Florida last year was given it, and it prolonged her life. The longer that Terry's body is allowed to heal, the more functioning she achieves. Perhaps that year she was in a vegetative state, and the next. But a former doctor was suprised to see her responsiveness at a recent hearing. One of the things that this case hinges upon, her inablity to swallow, has never been addressed. A PVS patient cant swallow, right? Well, neither can stroke patients....at first. A compromise that the courts could have come to was to allow for therapy to re-teach her how to swallow. Its done all the time to seniors who have had strokes. This feeding tube debate might have become a non-sequitur. And about feeding tubes. I see alot in posts about "pulling the plug". She isnt on a respirator or a perfusion machine. People get feeding tubes all the time. Its everyday kind of medical stuff. After heart surgeries, stomach surgeries, pneumonia....heck, the owner of Penthouse walks around, womanizes, but has a feeding tube. If people who have power of attorney over someone uses the precedent this will set to stop their mother with pneumonia from being fed or their grandfather with a stroke, we're in for a wild ride. This isnt an "extraordinary measure" to keep someone alive - its like insulin for the person who cant swallow. Its the bare minimum of medical care. There was a study done this year, in which patients in comas for many years were placed in an fMRI machine while videos from their weddings were played, or their best man's speeches. In each one of their brains, the areas of memory, emotion, and visualizaton lit up. Dont discount the fact that although these people cant move, that they arent alive in some way mentally. I imagine its alot like dreaming. Many people, when they come out of a coma, say that the thing which got them through it was hearing the voices of their loved ones. Knowing what I know about the brain, I would prefer to be kept alive, even on respirators and perfusion machines, for quite a while after an accident. As long as my caretakers were aggressive, I beleive that both time and medical breakthroughs would help me to heal. Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I dont think that the situation is futile at all.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Homeskooled,

Excellent post!


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Dear Homeskooled,
DAMN I JUST LOST ANOTHER POST. I'll make this brief....



> Many people, when they come out of a coma, say that the thing which got them through it was hearing the voices of their loved ones. Knowing what I know about the brain, I would prefer to be kept alive, even on respirators and perfusion machines, for quite a while after an accident. As long as my caretakers were aggressive, I beleive that both time and medical breakthroughs would help me to heal. Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I dont think that the situation is futile at all.


I agree with many of your points, and this is where I find this "the slippery slope" of legal precedent. I find it horrendous that the judicial system has been involved with the Schiavo family's lives, or really Terri Schiavo's LIFE. It makes me sort of sick to my stomach.

Odd, but I sort of wish sometimes we DIDN'T have so many medical advances in re: this.

I base this again on my mothers 10 years in a Nursing Home with Alzheimer's -- it was not what she would have wanted.

I also think of two weeks in my father's hospital room. No chance of survival, and all he had was IV food, morphine, and O2, but he was at times lucid and terrifed. He lay in his bed for essentially two weeks in misery. He was frequently delusional, hallucinated things, but once he looked straight at me in terror and said, "Am I dying?!!" I told him, "No Dad, you're just very ill. Just sleep."

Then I think of myself. Could I stand this. As privateer said above... oh man I had this all quoted....... anyway.... "there must be some wild things going on in her head." For ME, if I were conscious, and I'm only speaking about myself here, I would be terrified. I would want to die. Perhaps it's because I see myself still with DP/DR (as I've had it so long), and being stuck inside myself like that AND being DP/DR absolutely terrifies me.

I have to stop, have more to say, and if this doesn't post I'll scream.

Home, you have made some very good points. I don't know the answer to all of this. I know what I would want. But I believe Terri Schiavo is suffering. I believe she feels being starved and dehydrated. And that is equally horrifying.

Best,
D
Sad, sad, sad.......


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

enigma quoted another news article:



> During testimony in a 2002 hearing, court-appointed neurologist Peter Bambakidis acknowledged that seeing the videotapes of Schiavo's mother kissing and speaking with her gave him pause at first.
> 
> "Yes, that was a source of the concern on my part: How does one interpret a situation like that," he said. He even acknowledged that she did track a Mickey Mouse balloon with her eyes in one clip.
> 
> *But Bambakidis noted that such visual tracking "commonly occurs spontaneously in people in a persistent vegetative state." After reviewing her brain scans and visiting with her, he came to the conclusion that she had no hope of recovery.*


That quotation (above) I lost from my other post... from enigma....

And my comment was something like....
None of us are Terri Schiavo's doctors. It seems to me there have been so many who have seen her because of this legal fiasco. I have to have some faith in the combined opinions of many doctors that her state is indeed "vegetative."

Also, we have to put ourselves in her shoes, her parents shoes, her husbands shoes.

I'll say one thing about the media. I have mentioned that in December, a close friend of mine I knew since college killed her mother, then killed herself. She was on the local news, and the front page of the Detroit News. Page 1. Much of what happened was sensationalized. I KNEW her, and over time have had the chance to talk with family and friends to try to understand the tragedy.

No one knew what was in my friends' mind except for her. It was a caregiver tragedy, out of which she saw no hope. Too long for me to recap. *But, the media outright misrepresented a number of facts about my friends life, about the "crime scene", and about alleged embezzling she was to have done 5 years ago. That was pure speculation, and it turns out, no one now thinks it was true. She was destroyed on the front of the Detroit News.* Friends and family remaining wrote letters of protest. But it was too late. She had made the headlines.

Only a few of us really knew the full story.

I think this is true of something so personal as the Schiavo case.

I hope this posts.
It helps me to discuss this actually. I don't know, you hit a certain age, and certain things happen, and... well, you have to rethink a million things.

Best,
D


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2005)

There is a term used very often among psychoanalysts to describe the VERY complex set of realities behind symptoms. The phrase is "overdetermined" and it's come to mean that there are SO many different versions of "truth" inside any patient's story, so many versions of reality (not that they lie, but that so much is subjective) that the best we can hope for (and the goal to model for patients) is to keep exploring and reworking/revising our view of events and causes and responses.

Ultimately, the "real story" behind anything matters less than the thinking of it. Analysts are searching for the WAYS of finding reality, the pathways to truth rather than the arriving at a destination.

Our society, and Dreamer's point about the media slaughter of reputations, is counter-productive to this way of thinking. It makes people find comfort in quick answers - and in what is termed "splitting" i.e., making clear cut angels/victims and devils of the parties involved. Life is so rarely that clear. It's DESPERATE efforts to SEE it so black and white that actually causes alot of mental symptoms.

I think along these lines and find the exploration of it all fascinating - but the PROCESS of discussing and exploring is much meatier than trying to find the Right Answer.

Peace,
Janine


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2005)

I followed this thread but didnt have it in me to post something about it.
But I heard that Terri Schiavo died today, after 13 days.
What a horrible death. And what a gruesome case.


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## JAG (Aug 31, 2004)

Janine, Well said.


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

The creep(husband) finally got what he wanted. Sounds like he is going to allow an autopsy. How sweet of him. It probably doenst matter tho because nobody can prove why she had so many broken bones. Ive read that this woman actually walked with assistance in 1995 but when the creep found out he had all therapy stopped.

Ive also read that he would be very elated every time she had an medical problem. He once asked a nurse, "when is the bitch finally going to die?". When he would visit her he would make every body in the room leave and when they were allowed in she would be very aggitated as if he had done something to her. One nurse even suggested he was giving her insulin.


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## dreamcatcher (Sep 23, 2004)

*RIP TERRI SCHAVIO* to one lady that has had the fight taken away


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

U.S. National - AP

Autopsy May Shed Light Schiavo Case

1 hour, 10 minutes ago U.S. National - AP

By The Associated Press

An autopsy will be done on Terri Schiavo by the office of Dr. John Thogmartin, chief medical examiner for Pinellas County, Fla. It could take several weeks to get the report, which the law requires be made public. It will include a thorough examination by a board-certified neuropathologist, as well as routine forensic procedures and X-rays.

That could shed light on two questions that have been publicly raised:

_Was Terri Schiavo's diagnosis of "persistent vegetative state" correct? Her husband hopes it will offer definitive proof of that diagnosis.

Although doctors cited Schiavo's brain scans as evidence of brain damage, they based their diagnoses of persistent vegetative state mostly on her behavior. Experts say a brain autopsy could lend more support by showing patterns of brain damage consistent with a persistent vegetative state.

"If there's very extensive brain injury, it would be hard to accept another diagnosis as being conceivable," said Dr. Roger Albin, a neurology professor and director of the brain bank at the University of Michigan Medical School.

_Was she physically abused, as her family suggested and her husband has repeatedly denied?

An autopsy can detect whether bones have broken and healed, even many years ago. It can't determine when the injury occurred. But comparisons with X-rays from previous dates could help get a fix on that.


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## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

Joe, where are you getting your info in your second to last post?


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

September 5, 2003, 10:55 a.m.
Schiavo?s Date with Death
A Florida woman needs non-dehydration intervention.

By Wesley J. Smith

Thirty-nine-year-old Terri Schiavo may not live to see her 40th birthday. She's not terminally ill. She's not engaged in inherently dangerous activities. She's not on Death Row.

So, you might wonder, why is she about to die? Schiavo has a profound cognitive disability. This should entitle her to the best of care. Instead, Judge George W. Greer of the Sixth Judicial Circuit, in Clearwater, Florida, is about to order medical personnel to withhold tube-supplied food and water until she dies. Terri's dehydration will be slow, taking 10-14 agonizing days.

Judge Greer is acting at the behest of Terri's husband, Michael Schiavo, who petitioned the court five years ago for permission to withdraw his wife's tube-supplied food and water. In a normal case, a spouse would be trusted to make medical decisions in the best interests of an incapacitated husband or wife. But this is not a normal case. Consider the following facts:

After Terri collapsed from unknown causes in 1990, she became profoundly cognitively disabled. 
Michael filed a medical-malpractice lawsuit, during which he said he would care for her for the rest of her life, which, assuming proper care, would be a normal lifespan. He also presented at trial a medical-rehabilitation expert who had developed a plan to provide support for Terri to maximize her ability to respond to her environment. 
A jury awarded $1.3 million in the malpractice case, of which $750,000 was put in trust to pay for the kind of care that Michael promised to provide Terri.
Michael never kept his promise. 
Within months of the money being deposited in the bank, Michael ordered a do-not-resuscitate order placed on Terri's chart. He has also repeatedly denied her other forms of medical care, such as treatment for infections.
Once the money was in the bank, according to affidavits filed by nurses under penalty of perjury, Michael ordered that Terri be denied stimulation.
In the mid 1990s, according to another nurse's affidavit filed under penalty of perjury, Michael was overheard saying things such as, "When is she going to die," "Has she died yet?" and "When is that bitch going to die?" (This affidavit was only recently filed. Michael has not yet filed a response.)
Michael dated after the malpractice trial; he is now engaged to be married. He lives with his fianc?, with whom he has one child and another on the way. He reportedly plans to marry his fianc? as soon as his wife's death is induced.
Money that was intended to pay for Terri's treatment and rehabilitation has instead gone to lawyers Michael retained to obtain a court order to bring about her death.
If Terri dies, Michael will inherit what is left of the $750,000 (if any remains) and all other property they owned.
Michael moved Terri from a nursing home to a hospice three years ago even though Terri is not terminally ill. A hospice specializes in dying patients and is not as equipped to provide patients like Terri with proper care.

Judge Greer has ruled that Terri is in a persistent vegetative state (PVS). This ruling was necessary under Florida law to allow dehydration. Under Florida law, this means that Terri exhibits no voluntary action or cognitive behavior of any kind and is unable to communicate or interact purposely with the environment.

Yet, affidavits filed by nurses who cared for Terri claim that she has responded to them, can speak, and can even swallow food. Moreover, a picture is worth 1,000 words. Videotapes of Terri clearly show her responding to requests. For example, a closed-eyed Terri is asked to open her eyes by a doctor. Her eyes flutter and she does as he requests. She is asked in another video to follow a balloon with her eyes, and she does. In a heartbreaking video, Terri's mother kisses her on the cheek and Terri smiles and responds, clearly happy that her mom is with her. These and other videos can be seen by visiting http://www.terrisfight.org.

Dr. William Hammesfahr, a world-renowned expert in cases such as Terri's ? and a Nobel Prize nominee ? testified that Terri is not in a PVS. He also testified that he believes he could help her improve her circumstances through proper medical treatment. Ten other physicians have testified or given statements that Terri is not unconscious. Judge Greer instead chose to believe contrary testimony by a doctor who rarely sees Terri and another doctor, who makes an avocation of testifying in cases such as Terri's throughout the country, always on the side of dehydration.

Despite the clear financial and personal conflicts of interest, Judge Greer repeatedly sides with Michael and against Terri's father, mother, and siblings, who want to care for her for the rest of her life. This means that the man who might benefit financially from his wife's death and who has clear personal reasons for wanting Terri to die continues to have almost sole say over how she is treated and cared for ? or denied care ? on a daily basis.

Greer will set the date for Terri's dehydration on September 11 (amazingly). This order will be based on testimony from Michael and his brother and sister-in-law arguing that Terri said she would not want to be maintained in this condition. Never mind that Michael first brought this alleged statement up only after he decided that the time had come for Terri to die by dehydration. Never mind that these conversations never came up when Michael was asking a jury for a $20 million medical-malpractice award. Never mind that none of Terri's blood family ever recall her saying any such thing. Never mind that Terri is a Catholic and this dehydration would violate Catholic moral teaching.

A PLEA TO GOVERNOR BUSH
Time is running out. Terri may be days away from a dehydration order. The only hope for Terri Schiavo may now be Florida Governor Jeb Bush.

Gov. Bush is aware of the Terri Schiavo case. He has received more than 27,000 petition signatures from Americans across the country who are enraged at how Terri has been treated and the death that is planned for her.

On August 26, reacting to the political heat, and no doubt genuinely concerned with Terri's plight, Bush wrote a letter to Judge Greer requesting that he postpone the dehydration and appoint a guardian ad litem to look into Terri's case. In this regard, it is worth noting that Terri once had a guardian ad litem who recommended against the requested dehydration. Perhaps this is why Judge Greer respectfully told Gov. Bush that he would put the governor's letter in the file with no action taken.

Bush's letter was a nice first step but was clearly insufficient. The time has come for the State of Florida to attempt to formally intervene in the case. Indeed, there are enough substantial questions about the propriety of what is transpiring in Terri's case, that Bush should take whatever legal action is necessary to make the state Terri's official guardian.

Taking such action would prevent a husband with too many conflicts of interest from continuing to be in charge of Terri's care. It would permit an objective, professional guardian with no intimate ties to Terri to bring order to this emotionally devastating case and determine:

The extent of Terri's disability and responsiveness;
The likelihood that therapy could have a meaningful chance of improving Terri's condition; 
The propriety of the care that Terri has received; and,
Whether the benefit of the doubt should go to keeping Terri alive or letting her die by dehydration.

If Michael Schiavo dehydrated a horse, he could go to jail. But getting a judge to order medical personnel to do the same thing to a human being is perfectly legal. The hour is late but Terri Schiavo is still alive; as long as she is, Gov. Bush can still act to protect her right to life.

If you agree with this article, please contact Governor Jeb Bush at:

Governor Jeb Bush
Florida Capitol Building, PL-05
Tallahassee, Florida 32399-1050
850-488-7146
850-487-2564 Fax
E-Mail: [email protected]


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Remove Dennis Kucinich's Feeding Tube! (Terry Schiavo's Case By Ann Coulter!) 
anncoulter.org ^ | 11/13/03 | Ann Coulter

Posted on 11/13/2003 2:27:19 PM PST by Recovering_Democrat

IN THE CURRENT battle over whether to remove the feeding tube from Florida woman Terri Schiavo, the basic positions are:

She is in a permanent vegetative state; no she's not. 
She is unconscious and does not react to stimuli; yes she does. 
She will never get any better; yes she will. 
She would not have wanted to be kept on a feeding tube; you don't know that. 
The only thing everyone seems to agree on is that the husband is creepy. Terri's parents are fighting like mad to keep Terri alive. The husband, Michael Schiavo, is living with another woman with whom he has one child and is expecting another. Yet he has mounted a monumental crusade to have Terri's feeding tube removed.

Terri is not brain-dead and requires no extraordinary means to be kept alive. She is breathing, her heart is pumping, her organs are functioning. All she needs is food and water. (Of course, all three are technically true of Kate Moss, too.) But her husband wants to starve her to death. As Larry King asked him, why not "walk away"?

That is the eternal mystery of this case. Assuming everything Michael says about Terri is true ? she has no consciousness, she will never recover, and she would not want to live with feeding tubes ? well, then, she's not in pain, bored, angry or upset. Dennis Kucinich has been in a persistent vegetative state for 20 years ? how about not feeding him? Why is Michael Schiavo so obsessed with pulling Terri's feeding tube? Why can't he just walk away?

Michael's answer to Larry King was this: "Why should I, Larry? This is Terri's wish. This is Terri's choice." As King pointed out, Terri's alleged "wish" was not memorialized anywhere in writing, only in Michael's memory. Michael responded to this point by invoking the courts: "It's been decided for six years of litigation that this was Terri's wish."

I note that "six years of litigation" is not enough to end the lives of child-molesting serial killers on death row. The same people who want to kill Terri believe that death-row cases are never final, no matter how many courts and juries have spoken over how many decades.

Moreover, it's not as if court after court has heard testimony on Terri's wishes and have all unanimously agreed that Terri would have chosen death. One lone Florida circuit court judge, George Greer, credited Michael's testimony, finding "clear and convincing" evidence that Terri said she would not want to be kept alive on feeding tubes. Because Judge Greer was acting as the finder of fact, his finding is essentially unreviewable by any other court. Even the notorious Florida Supreme Court ? which has a history of jumping in to try to save a dead man ? refused to review the case.

Judge Greer's finding on Terri's wishes may be immune from legal review, but it's not immune from criticism. He's a finder of fact ? he's not God. A few years ago, Judge Greer found that Helene Ball McGee did not have reasonable cause to believe domestic violence was imminent and denied her an order of protection. Two weeks later, Mrs. McGee was stabbed to death by her husband. So judges can make mistakes.

Judge Greer's pivotal "finding of fact" in the Schiavo case determining a life-or-death issue is based on something Terri allegedly said after watching a TV show. Michael didn't know his wife was bulimic, but he distinctly remembered Terri's remarks about a TV show. (It was an episode of "Melrose Place," during which she said that Heather Locklear's shoes were "to die for.")

After watching "Bambi," I'm against deer hunting. Then I go out the next day and order venison. Maybe we could have a higher standard of proof before the government orders a woman to die.

Despite Michael's insistence that he has a vivid memory of Terri expressing her wishes regarding death, note this exchange on "Larry King Live":

KING: I have a 35-year-old daughter. I've never asked her this question. I don't know if she has a living will. I hope she does. But if she doesn't, I don't know the answer to the question. Because most 35-year-olds, I guess, don't talk about it.

SCHIAVO: Nobody talks about death, Larry.

Michael apparently forgot to add ? except for that one night I remember so clearly, Larry, when my wife, Terri, talked to me about death and expressed her firmly held desire not to be kept alive on a feeding tube.

If you start making damning admissions on "Larry King Live" ? with your lawyer sitting next to you, no less ? you have a problem. Larry King can interview Louis Farrakhan and make him look like a charmer.

As even the New York Times admits, Michael did not recall Terri's clearly stated desire to be taken off life support until after the million-dollar settlement was paid, most of it going for Terri's medical costs ? and the remainder to her husband.

What offhand comments might Terri have made if she had read in the Baltimore Sun about Rod Brandner, who indicated that he was coming out of a coma by squeezing his son's hand in response to questions less than two hours before his life support system was to be turned off?

Or what if she had read the Associated Press news story on Chris Trickle, who lost 5 percent of his brain when he was shot in the head, but later came out of a nine-month coma to breathe on his own, eat three meals a day, and tell his girlfriend he loved her?

What would Terri have said after hearing that Gregory Dygas' mother refused to believe the doctors' assurances that Gregory was brain-dead and should be taken off life support, and six months later watched as Gregory sat up, talked and watched television?

What offhand remarks might Terri have made after reading about Terry Wallis, the Canadian man who just last summer awoke from a 19-year coma?

Or how about that case in Minnesota last year where the guy who'd been in a coma for decades suddenly reappeared and ran for Senate? What was his name? Walter Mondale?

(Note for the record: I want heroic measures taken to keep me alive, and I demand the immediate arrest of anyone trying to remove my life support.)

In the absence of a living will, I would think the courts ought to be erring on the side of life. But short of that, couldn't we at least all agree that the courts should not defer to the pull-the-plug demands from anyone who:

expresses an unseemly enthusiasm for another person's death; 
was the only person present when the incident leading to the persistent vegetative state occurred; 
stands to make money off the person's death; or 
is wearing a "W.W.C.V.B.D.?" (what would Claus von Bulow do?) bracelet?


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

In 2003, several prior caregivers of Terri Schiavo filed sworn affidavits with the court citing alleged abuse of her by Michael Schiavo in the alleged withholding of medical treatment and other allegations but Greer took no action.

Heidi Law, a certified nurses assistant who worked at the Palm Gardens Nursing Home in Clearwater from March, 1997 until mid-summer of 1997 and took care of Terri, said under oath that Terri did not receive routine physical therapy or any other kind of therapy. She said she was personally aware of orders for rehabilitative services but that Michael Schiavo would stop them and ordered that no rehabilitation or range of motion therapy be given.

She said that Terri had very definite likes and dislikes and that she could swallow her own saliva without difficulty. Law said that at least three times during her shift she would give Terri a washcloth filled with ice chips to keep her mouth moistened.

?I personally saw her swallow the ice water and never saw her gag?, Law said.

She said she frequently put orange juice or apple juice in a washcloth ?which made her happy?.

?I personally fed her small mouthfuls of Jello which she was able to swallow and enjoyed immensely?, Law told the court.

She said that on one occasion, Michael Schiavo ?arrived with his girlfriend. I heard him tell his girlfriend that Terri was PVS and was dying. After they left, Terri was extremely agitated and wouldn?t react to anyone. When she was upset, usually after Michael was there, she would withdraw for hours?.

The caregiver said that Terri had an ?obvious cognitive awareness of her surroundings? and that she formed words.

She said that she was deprived of, by Michael Schiavo?s orders, any kind of testing, dental care or stimulation. The caregivers were not to change the television or radio station due to Michael Schiavo orders and the advice amontg the staff was ?don?t do nothin?, don?t see nothin? and don?t say nothin?. LAW

Another affidavit given by caregiver C. Johnson who worked at the Sabal Palms Nursing Home in 1993 where Terri was a patient says that Terri was not to be given any rehabilitation by order of Michael Schiavo. JOHNSON

Registered nurse Carla Iyer who worked at the Palm Gardens Nursing Home from April, 1995 until July, 1996 when Terri was a patient there, said she was told to ?do what Michael Schiavo tells you or you will be terminated?.

?The atmosphere throughout the facility was dominated by Schiavo?s intimidation?, Iyer said in her sworn affidavit. ?There was no allowance made for professional responsibility. This is my order and you?re going to follow it? was the position of Schiavo she said.

ORDERED NO ANTIBIOTICS, NO TESTS

?He wanted nothing done?, she said. There was to be no antibiotics, no tests, no range of motion therapy, no stimulation.

?Terri?s medical condition was systematically distorted and misrepresented by Michael Schiavo?, she said. She said she routinely made notes of Terri?s progress but the notes were deleted from the chart or thrown away. She said he always demanded to see her chart and would take it into her room with him.

?He was focused on her death?, Iyer said. ?When is she going to die, has she died yet, when is that bitch gonna die, can?t anything be done to accelerate her death, won?t she ever die?, she said that Michael intoned.

?When she wouldn?t die, Michael would be furious?, Iyer relates.

He was adamant that her family not be given information and left orders to make sure the parents weren?t contacted. She said there were standing orders that the family was not to be contacted. There was a large sign in front of her chart that under no circumstances was her family to be called.

The nurse said that anytime Terri would be sick a with urinary tract infection or fluid buildup in her lungs, colds of pneumonia, Michael was ?visibly excited, thrilled even, hoping that she would die. He would say, ?Hallelujah! You?ve made my day!?

She said he would call her nursing supervisor and ask for details, asking if she was dead yet He would blurt out, ?I?m gonna be rich? and talk about the things he would buy when she died, a new car, boat and going to Europe, Iyer said.

She said he always came alone, closed the door to Terri?s room and locked it and was there about 20 minutes. When he left, Terri would be crying hysterically, trembling, be pale and have cold sweats. She said it looked like she was having a hypoglycemic reaction so she checked her blood sugar. She said the reading was so low, it didn?t register so she would give Terri dextrose to counteract. She said that happened about five times and that normally her blood sugar levels were very stable due to the uniformity of her diet. She said although she never saw him do it, it was medically possible he was injecting Terri with regular Insulin.

She said he complained that she was costing him a lot of money to keep her alive. Iyer said she called the police relative to Michael Schiavo and his actions towards Terri. She was terminated the next day although management cited other reasons for her firing. IYER PDF

It has also been alleged that Terri, per her husband?s request, was not allowed to have her teeth cleaned from 1995 to 2002 and that as a result of the neglect and lack of care, five teeth had to be pulled.

She has received no therapy since 1992 although he testified under oath at the malpractice trial in 1992 that he would ?take care of Terri for the rest of my life?,

In his 1999 report, Richard Pearse, guardian ad litem, said that Schiavo had been living with another woman since 1995 and stood to inherit Terri?s medical fund as well. Pearse recommended that the feeding tube not be removed. He also said that there was no ?corroborative evidence of the ward?s intention? commenting on his lack of credibility and hearsay evidence, hearsay that did not meet the clear and convincing standard needed.

After that recommendation, Schiavo petitioned Greer to have Pearse removed from the case and Greer did in 1999.

At the time of Pearse?s investigation and report, Michael Schiavo?s self-serving hearsay that Terri didn?t wish to be kept alive artificially was not corroborated but by the time of the January, 2000, trial, his brother and sister-in-law had suddenly also remembered that Terri had made similar comments to them, hearsay testimony that Greer ruled was ?clear and convincing? evidence that Terri Schiavo wished to die.

Greer has since refused to appoint a new guardian ad litem to represent Terri?s interests. Instead Greer has improperly assumed the role himself in direct violation of judicial canons. PEARSE GAL PDF

EXPLOITATION DEFINED

Abuse, neglect and exploitation of elderly persons and disabled adults is a crime pursuant to Chapter 825 of Florida Statutes. Exploitation of an elderly person or disabled adult is defined as ?knowingly, by deception or intimidation, obtaining or using, or endeavoring to obtain or use, an elderly person?s or disabled adult?s funds, assets or property with the intent to temporarily or permanently deprive the elderly person or disabled adult of the use, benefit, or possession of the funds, asserts or property or to benefit someone other than the elderly person or disabled adult, by a person who stands in a position of trust and confidence with the elderly person or disabled adult.

Although Michael Schiavo has been designated as Terri?s guardian, an appointment that the Schindlers are trying to have negated, Terri retains certain rights pursuant to Chapter 744, Florida Statutes.

By law, she has the right to be restored to capacity at the earliest possible time but no efforts have been made to improve her condition since 1992 when she last had physical therapy. Dr. Victor Gambone, who entered the case as her physician in 1998 said that he had suggested that Terri be evaluated for physical therapy when he came on the case but that Schiavo had vetoed that idea.

By law, she is to be treated humanely, with dignity and respect and to be protected against abuse, neglect and exploitation. However, her money, awarded by a medical malpractice jury in 1992, has been virtually exhausted paying Michael?s attorney fees in his effort to end her life as opposed to using the money to treat her. According to the annual report by the guardian of the property filed in July, 1998, shortly after the petition to withdraw life support was filed, there was $718,000 in trust for Terri. As of September, 2003, there was said to be maybe $40,000 remaining.

DCF secretary Lucy Hadi has indicated a forensic accountant may be utilized to review the financial records in the Schiavo investigation

In addition, Michael has been living with another woman since 1995 by whom he has two children. In the petition to withdraw her life support, he pled that he intends to marry when Terri dies. He listed his ?fianc??, not his wife, Terri, as a survivor when his parents died.

She by law has the right to review the annual guardianship report and plan However, with Greer?s permission, although mandated by law, Michael has not filed a report or plan for years so there is nothing to review. When he last filed, he stated that his plan for the coming year for Terri was ?nothing?.

She by law has the right to have a qualified guardian. Guardianship training is statutorily mandated for private guardians. Until March, 2002, Schiavo refused to take this training and has operated for some 14 years without the minimum mandatory education and training.

She by law has the right to prudent financial management. The parents do not have access to the financial side of the guardianship as that is sealed.

She by law has the right to have access to the courts and to have counsel. She does not have a guardian ad litem and no attorney to represent her interests. She has a right to receive visitors and to communicate with others. Michael maintains a visitors list of who is approved to visit. For a period of 52 days including Easter Sunday and Mothers Day in 2004, her family could not visit her. He closely controls any stimulation in her environment and keeps it to a bare minimum. For example, he does not allow Terri to have flowers in her room from well-wishers or photos of her family.

She is not allowed outside of her room and is not allowed outside of the Hospice in the fresh air. Her wheelchair has been inoperable for years and Michael Schiavo has refused to allow it to be repaired or replaced.

Without prior court approval, a guardian may not approve an experimental medical procedure for the ward nor commit the ward to a specific institution. Yet, in 1990, as guardian and without court permission or knowledge, Michael took Terri to California for experimental brain surgery that left her with an electrical implant in her brain. After the trial court entered its initial death order in February, 2000, he unilaterally moved Terri from a nursing home to the Hospice Woodside facility, without court approval. Hospice facilities do not have the range of treatment options that nursing homes must have, by law, and so Terri has been residing in a facility for more than five years that never was intended nor designated as a long-term care facility. According to John Campbell, Hospice attorney, Terri has never been certified under federal rules as ?terminal?, defined as a patient not expected to live longer than six months.

Family members and family friends, alarmed at the course of events, have repeatedly tried to file reports with various agencies about the alleged abuse and neglect but to no avail. At least four reports had been filed with DCF as of the fall of 2003. Although DCF investigator Mitch Turner spent time at the hospice reviewing Terri?s file after a complaint of abuse had been lodged with DCF, chief DCF attorney Frank Nagatani, a campaign contributor to Greer?s campaign, told the family that DCF chiefs in the region had already looked at the case and ?simply were not going to get involved?.


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Hey Gimpy,

Its just pieces of stuff Ive read all over the internet. Most of it is repeats. I realize its hard to say whats true and whats not. The only thing Im convinced of is that this guy was a genuine piece of shit. Definitely not the guy I want my daughter to marry someday.

Joe


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

I know this is a little after the fact, but i just finished reading everyone's arguments about this case, and i must say it was one of the more interesting debates i've read on this forum in awhile.

Thanks all,

s.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Is a life of total misery, pain and misery, without hope any shred or hope or relief, worth less than a dignified death ?


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2005)

Killers get the painless, calm, lethal injection.

She got the pleasure of dehydrating to death.

Something's wrong there.


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Something's wrong there.

Yes, its called removing a sick person's feeding tube.

Misery, pain and misery, without any shred or hope or relief. Doesnt this deserve a dignified death?

By the way, Martin, I agree. Everyone in constant pain and misery should have a dignified death. You should have a dignified death. Sorry, that was harsh. But the way your definition can pretty much be applied to, well, anybody who lives in the real world, just shows why conservatives think legalized suicide is right around the bend.

Peace
Homeskooled


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