# Tracers/Trails/Ghosting getting bad at times



## BlueTank

First off I do not know what to call it. "trails" "tracers" "ghosting" or whatever. Its basically motion blur, which is normal. But normally you only see so much of it and the trail only goes for so long. Lately even when i'm just distracted and not thinking about DP at all this effect will make me think of DP. It is quick to startle me.

A prime example is today I was going to go to the bathroom at work and wasn't thinking about anything but going to the bathroom..... I started walking to the door in this dimly lit room and I went to reach for the door knob and as I ***watched my hand come up to the door knob (note that the door, floor, and all suroundings are dark with the dim light reflecting off my hand/arm) I instantly became aware of how much damn "trailing" was coming off of my arm. The door knob is chrome and as I opened the door I could see the repeated shine and door knob move through the dark.

The worst of it is when i'm not even thinking about it but almost like a single "ghost" catches me off guard. So in this case I saw and after image of my arm lag (in time) well enough behind that it pulled my attention to it.

If anybody has any input on this or can relate i'd like to hear it. I know somebody has posted to me before that they get this. It seems to be getting worse.

I made these images really quick. They are crappy but kind of demonstrate it a bit.

It should be noted that I get ghosting on slow moving objects. If I don't follow the object with my eyes but just move it around I can see blurry ghosting coming off of it.










*
This one is like if its night time and you wave a shiney spoon around in your kitchen. Wherever the light hits strongly (highlights) there are trails. *










***On a side note. Normally I would just do things with out really looking, but for some reason since DP/DR I look at what my hands are doing a lot more now. I watch my own actions a lot more instead of just blindly doing them. So strange....


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## DiscoStick

Oh I get this big time.
I didn't actually realise that it was anything unusual until I read about it. Is it about afterimages because I get afterimages which stay for absolutely ages even when I don't look at something in detail. Like when I close my eyes there's always this huge mess of light which lasts for ages. But yeah I get the trails with every moving object at all times. It doesn't really bother me much though.
So I stay in the dark most of the time.


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## PositiveThinking!

I've always had this at a very intense level, but it happened before DP as well


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## BlueTank

Is there any drug relation? Or do you guys think this is a standard DP/DR thing that comes with the whole light-sensitivity territory?

Its one of the first things I noticed. Like if i look at a light/led and then look away, i will see it streak in the opposite direction too.

thanks guys

Edit:


> Is it about afterimages because I get afterimages which stay for absolutely ages even when I don't look at something in detail. Like when I close my eyes there's always this huge mess of light which lasts for ages.


Yeah exactly. Which has something to do with the photosensitivity or something. It seems the after images thing is common. negative and positive ones. When I close my eyes I have a mess of crap as well







.


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## WANTTOBEBETTER

Hi Bluetank,

I get these also, we have talked about this subject before. I see the same thing as your excellent picture of the hand moving toward the doorknob, except the trails,afterimage,slow motion appearance is usually white in color no matter what is moving. It only happens in dim lighting. In the sunshine or in a store, or when the lights are on I dont get it. When I wild into a fairly dim room, as I go throught the door, I get and instant afterimage of the white door jamb, and it goes away in instantly. I watch people walk by me and try to see if I see their trail behind them, sometimes I am looking so hard I see what I dont want to see. I am always waving my hand in front of my face slowly and fast in all types of light to see if I see any thing, I never do though. I do look at my hand and feel it looks weird or fake. I do see sometimes things being a differnt color for a split second than it really is (for example, I look down at a peice of paper and see a spot of yellow. and the other day I was looking at my wife hair and saw some of it as blue. Weird) I don't see stuff like this all the time, but when I do I obsess over it. I scares me to think that this could be the result of taking LSD (only a 1/2 of peice) one single time 20 years ago, or possibly from smoking weed about three times at the same age. HPDD? God I hope not. This has a possible link to OCD and DR. Once you look for something you really start to notice it, which is normal for everone else. I had a psychologist once describe panic attacks and GAD not being familiar with you surroundings and focusing on outlines of objects ( Ihave not noticed this before) but now I still cant stop seeing this and scaring myself. Most of my symptoms are because I have read something or someone mentioned to me as a possible symptom or orgin of what I have (DR,anxiety, depression,and OCD) From childhood on I could tell you a million thoughts, perceptions, fears, and obsessions (ruminations) Any one without these symptoms can see it to if they wave their hand quickly and look for it. I think it is your brain being slowed down and the connection from eye to brain is not instant, but a little delayed. I used to smoke cigarettes a while ago. When I smoked in the dark I too my cigarette and made zig zag or random patterns or circles and the glow would stay for and instant or if I did it in a circle it I watched the action and the movement of the real glow and then instantly an a trail of red would follow the same path to the exact resting spot. (Kind of like 4th of July sparklers moving in circles but more delayed) Another thing that bothers me is in the dark, and using a cell phone, If I look at the display (mine is blue) in motion I see a blur of blue follow it wherever I move it. I get the sparks out of nowhere (gold colored)(tiny). I see static when I look in the blue sky or white surface (little squiggles also - white blood cells rushung through capillaries). Double vision while looking at the flat screen TV, and hundreds more. Floaters ect... (I had an eye doctor look at my eyes and before the exam he said I probably had alot of floaters because my eyes are soo blue, I was amazed. I was soo relieved to find out that this was normal. I could write a book on all my perceptions. Why i Say OCD because of the constant checking and perhaps are we making some of this up by super analyzing it? Believe it or not I did not get alot of my syptoms until I read it on here and the HPPD forum. Am I a hypochondriac? Maybe. Or am I really seeing these thing, I believe I am. Sometimes when I see a visual disturbance in my periphial (sp?) vision, I think here we go again , and I look and it is some thing real like a cat walks by.( I thought it was some of these weird visuals.) This thing has me all messed up. Another visual disturbance is things look flat or 2D sometimes 3D. The outside world looks weird or fake, when I look out the window it is even worse. I question what is space(air and the void in between objects -- I got this when I read a book saying that DR is like beeing in a vacuum, so I over analyzed it until I got this irrational thinking. How did we get here. There could be nothing blackness no life no existence but we are here. Scares the shit out of me. Does these things bother anyone else? probably not. If a normal person has these thought the dismiss them quickly. Trees and people appear flat or sticking out at me. I talked to another girl on here who had the exact same thing (the trees looking flat and 2d vision) on this site and it was her primary concern with her DR, and she has never done any drugs.

Has anyone else reading this have visuals disturbances while never doing drugs??

Like I say I am a 37 year old male. I have a tiny bit of experimentation when I was 16 (above) and I am afraid some of my symptoms are caused by this. But then I tell my self I had many similar symptoms, before I did the drugs (once again I could decribe many visual disturbances before that scared me just as bad. The worst thing for me back then and now isnthat life is not real or a dream and any thing out of the usual reinforces the fact of this. So maybe the drugs enhanced my DR maybe not. Maybe my DR is escalting on its own causing a new set of symptoms, matbe this is all a result of being so suggestible and hyper-vigilant.

I asked my current psychiatrist (sp?) if their could be a link after all these years or I permantly damaged my brain and I will always live in insane land. He said no, the drugs do put you in an imbalance with your serotonin levels, but not after all these years, and he dismissed it totally. He said with the medication that we are working on is trying to regulate the same thing that a drug will affect - serotonin and dopamime.
If anyone is interested I can list my medications.

I feel alot better than a year ago, but some things wont go away. Obsessions, visuals, existential thinking, high anxiety (GAD), and depression.

I had a great weekend, I did not notice any of these problems. I was happy being with my family, and so far this week every thing is ok. If I see something it's ok with me, I am not going to let it bother me. I think the Luvox and Klonopin is helping with relaxing me, and taking away some of the Obsessions. I feel real, the world feels real. I can probably conjure up these things again by thinking about them and looking for things to drive me insane, but I am trying not to. Easier said than done.

For me this thing is a result of a chemical imbalance, I can't recall any trauma, was never a heavy drug user, or any of the other causes. Happy childhood. Mental illness is genetic, on my mothers side, everyone has or had some sort of mental imbalance. So it must be chemical or something even deeper like abnormal structure of our chromosomes and DNA strands, who knows. Maybe they will find an answer to mental illness in our lifetime and find a way to cure us. I have had it all my life and will have it the rest. All I can do is to make the best of what I got, no matter how hard it is and not fall into the mind tricks.

Always willing to talk.

Greg


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## WANTTOBEBETTER

BlueTank said:


> First off I do not know what to call it. "trails" "tracers" "ghosting" or whatever. Its basically motion blur, which is normal. But normally you only see so much of it and the trail only goes for so long. Lately even when i'm just distracted and not thinking about DP at all this effect will make me think of DP. It is quick to startle me.
> 
> A prime example is today I was going to go to the bathroom at work and wasn't thinking about anything but going to the bathroom..... I started walking to the door in this dimly lit room and I went to reach for the door knob and as I ***watched my hand come up to the door knob (note that the door, floor, and all suroundings are dark with the dim light reflecting off my hand/arm) I instantly became aware of how much damn "trailing" was coming off of my arm. The door knob is chrome and as I opened the door I could see the repeated shine and door knob move through the dark.
> 
> The worst of it is when i'm not even thinking about it but almost like a single "ghost" catches me off guard. So in this case I saw and after image of my arm lag (in time) well enough behind that it pulled my attention to it.
> 
> If anybody has any input on this or can relate i'd like to hear it. I know somebody has posted to me before that they get this. It seems to be getting worse.
> 
> I made these images really quick. They are crappy but kind of demonstrate it a bit.
> 
> It should be noted that I get ghosting on slow moving objects. If I don't follow the object with my eyes but just move it around I can see blurry ghosting coming off of it.
> 
> 
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> *
> This one is like if its night time and you wave a shiney spoon around in your kitchen. Wherever the light hits strongly (highlights) there are trails. *
> 
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> 
> ***On a side note. Normally I would just do things with out really looking, but for some reason since DP/DR I look at what my hands are doing a lot more now. I watch my own actions a lot more instead of just blindly doing them. So strange....


Great pictures simulating your visual disturbances. How do you do this, no I don't to know, to techno for me. At least you do have skills at photo editing! I get the same thing as you, we are the same, and I hate it for both of us.

Greg


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## BlueTank

Greg, thanks thanks thanks for the extensive response. I like a lot of what your saying and I agree and have the same questions and persuits.



> except the trails,afterimage,slow motion appearance is usually white in color no matter what is moving.


I can kind of relate to that. Not entirly, but white does this to me the most. A really good example is sitting at a stop light looking forward waiting for the light to turn green. When cars go by they leave a sort of afterghost trailing behind, ESPECIALLY the white vehicles. Other colors hardly do at all.



> It only happens in dim lighting. In the sunshine or in a store, or when the lights are on I dont get it. When I wild into a fairly dim room, as I go throught the door, I get and instant afterimage of the white door jamb, and it goes away in instantly.


When I was first looking into my problem(s) I found out and would tell people that it has everything to do with *Contrast* and *Proportion*. Basically how bright something is over how dark the surroudings are, and also the size.



> I am always waving my hand in front of my face slowly and fast in all types of light to see if I see any thing, I never do though. I do look at my hand and feel it looks weird or fake.


I do this too. Its all about contrast. If i wave my hand in the dark with light hitting my hand I see this sort of effect, like in the pic i made. I know this is normal, but its the degree that is not normal.



> it. I scares me to think that this could be the result of taking LSD (only a 1/2 of peice) one single time 20 years ago, or possibly from smoking weed about three times at the same age. HPDD? God I hope not. This has a possible link to OCD and DR.


I'd like to know the details on this. Were you fine after taking drugs, but then DP/DR came on later? if so how long? I'm very curious on this for a personal reason i'll get into later.
There is some OCD in my family.



> Once you look for something you really start to notice it, which is normal for everone else.


This is very very true. Googleitis and the power of suggestion. For me I always recall back to the first real month of having DP/DR. I didn't know what was going on. I went to the opthomalogist and got glasses for Astigmatism Myopia and I was like "will this help (insert dp stuff here)" and he gave me a strange look. I was noticing things well before any knowledge of what I really had and well before any depressioin or anything. As i've said in the past... 30 years of being one way.... you bet I can see and know a difference. I noticed my monitors were brighter. Caffiene seemed to make me frazzled. I felt like I had tunnel vision. I started seeing streaky light, especially on my cell phone. All before even knowing about Panic Disorder or DP/DR. Then later there were things that I could possibly say is me just overthinking and "noticing". I hear floaters are a big one with that.



> Any one without these symptoms can see it to if they wave their hand quickly and look for it. I think it is your brain being slowed down and the connection from eye to brain is not instant, but a little delayed.


Yeah, motion blur. The problem is in the "shades of grey" (as a form of expression). I've always had motion blur but now its exaggerated like crazy, especially in my peripheral. As I drive on the highway I get negative after images coming off of the street lamps!!! this is during the day time I should photoshop that one too. Its just that its different. I think a lot of people get used to it, but its tough when your an artist and also i've got 4 months going up against 30 years here







. This all is the light sensitivity, i just know it. The after images and all that crap. just has to be.

I have a lot of the visual crap you have. Some not so much, but we are pretty similar. As I look for information and answers on these things I really start to think about the shades of grey... How much. I wish I could see through somebody elses eyes and see how much they get the sparky crap and how much visual noise etc...



> Why i Say OCD because of the constant checking and perhaps are we making some of this up by super analyzing it? Believe it or not I did not get alot of my syptoms until I read it on here and the HPPD forum. Am I a hypochondriac? Maybe. Or am I really seeing these thing, I believe I am.


After a while this happened a bit with me. People would tell me things and I would kind of experience it. Some of the main ones we are talking about are consistent though with me and others just seem to fade away. The damn trails/blur keeps popping up, and i'm not looking for it at all.

I havent had too much really crazy DR. I've had some high anxiety early on when depression first kicked in where I had things like it looks like its raining but its not!!! that one is freaky. Also the 2d type of look. I've had the thing with trees lines looking flat. I looked out a window of a place and saw 2 sets (lines) of trees. They looked realistic but dimentionally it was like South Park. Like just one line of painted trees sitting in front of another set further back. I remember thinking "So thats what they mean....."









I've also sorta had that effect of peoples heads seeming bigger or whatever. Wackyness. Feeling tall while walking. then looking down and feeling short.



> *Has anyone else reading this have visuals disturbances while never doing drugs??*


This is the big question for me!!! I've asked it before and I'm trying to find out. How much do drugs effect this. Now i'll bring up what I said I was going to - I smoked weed and had a bad trip 12 years ago and I guess I Dp'd for like 4 days. Anyways that was 12 years ago. I stopped smoking. I don't do drugs. I Dp'd 4 months ago and I have all these effects. Did what I did 12 years ago have some sort of dormant type effect? Was it laced? I'm saying no it was not laced. My friend was fine, he said it wasn't, and I heard LSD burns up, so it wouldn't be LSD for one.

Right now my answer (not looking at the potential shades-of-grey) is a No. Most people are not effected exactly, unless it was some heavy use. But I still don't know.

Greg... So was there any gap between drugs and chronic DP/DR?

_*[-quote-]*_He said no, the drugs do put you in an imbalance with your serotonin levels, but not after all these years, and he dismissed it totally. _*[-/quote-]*_

I'm not a doctor... Somebody told me similar things. Laughing saying "hahah that weed is way out of your system by now.. 12 years. cmon'" But who knows. We don't seem to know much about this stuff so perhaps it could be like a revolving door. You get high and a door (like in an indiana jones movie) revolves around in your mind with a table of treats, you enjoy whats on the table, its delicious. But then one day you have a bad trip and shit all over the treats. Then that revolves back around..... 12 year later... hey, but its been 12 years.... that shit is long gone. the door revolves around again for whatever reason and now you got Shit for brains! I know this is a totaly insane analogy. But seriously there are people who have taken LSD and then had HPPD hit them decades later. decades. I dunno. I just thought i'd throw that out there. So random. sorry. 
One reason I bring it up is because this site is full of people with DP/DR they tie to a drug trip / panic attack but with a chronic trigger later ranging from 1 day to 4 days to 3 months.



> I feel alot better than a year ago, but some things wont go away. Obsessions, visuals, existential thinking, high anxiety (GAD), and depression.


This is awesome and it gives me hope. My big thing is that its all about "how much". How much salt on my chips. How small is too small for a bed or a refridgrator. The same applies to this situation. I would like to get back to where I was 5 months ago. And back then I had times of depression. I had existential thinking and have had all my life-- I always figured everybody did. I had some obsesssions and some visual things perhaps. But only to a certain degree. Back 5 months ago I could manage my life and be happy. I could manage what I needed to do next and plan trips and plan my life out. I would think about how perhaps behind my back nothing exists or that people change into hideus looking creatures. But then quickly I could start thinking about planning a trip with a friend or remembering to do the dishes. The problem now is that i'm ALWAYS stuck on crap. Its getting better, but my mind is so narrow now. All I do is focus on DP and what happens next, next being like 10 minutes, not 10 days or 10 years. So fucked. In the past i've obsessed over things but they didn't really hinder my life too much. in short "I can't complain". But now these new obsessions are crippling. Its hard to focus at work when you keep looking at your desktop icons and then up at the wall and seeing how long it takes for them to fade away.

I am on 75mg of Zoloft and takign Klonopin. .5 morning. .5 mid day 1mg at night. I think its too much but i'm trying it out. I regret to say that I think they are helping. The regret is that i'd like to be off meds all together. They actually add a level of stress to me honestly. I live alone. You give a guy with newly found bad Memory problems cause of DP strong medication? yikes. This morning I cut a Klonopin in half. Took it. Came back a bit later to get the other half to bring to work for the mid-day one. Where did it go!? It was gone. Did I take it too on accident? I don't even know man. I dont' know. Did I already have a half lying around and never actually cut one? I don't think so. But at this point man I dont know. Its scary.



> For me this thing is a result of a chemical imbalance, I can't recall any trauma, was never a heavy drug user, or any of the other causes. Happy childhood. Mental illness is genetic, on my mothers side, everyone has or had some sort of mental imbalance. So it must be chemical or something even deeper like abnormal structure of our chromosomes and DNA strands, who knows. Maybe they will find an answer to mental illness in our lifetime and find a way to cure us. I have had it all my life and will have it the rest. All I can do is to make the best of what I got, no matter how hard it is and not fall into the mind tricks.


Yep, almost never deperessed. Was totaly happy and loving it when DP/DR kicked in. Smoked weed about 10 times, with the one bad trip. Never touched a cigarette in my life. No other drugs. Stayed healthy ESPECIALLY up to getting DP/DR, running, eating whole foods... and yet it still happened. And it runs in my family.

I believe around 2008 there was some good stuff coming out about them finding out what DNA is linked to Panic Disorder. Its sort of a set. How they find this out is along with how apparantly they can kinda tell if somebody will have issues later in life by testing as a baby. Ya throw a ball in front of a baby. The one that freaks out is most likely to start an Emo band and DP on Salvia. The other one that just looks at it blankly and pushes it away is goign to be a jar head, and the one that picks it up and plays with it is, i dunno, gay.  LOL ok i'm being sarcastic and having fun right now. But no I actually read about this stuff and they are looking into the genetics on Panic Disorder.

_*[-quote-]*_Great pictures simulating your visual disturbances. How do you do this, no I don't to know, to techno for me. At least you do have skills at photo editing! I get the same thing as you, we are the same, and I hate it for both of us._*[-/quote-]*_

Thanks. I know photoshop. Its cool that we are similar because it kind of answers some of the things i've been wondering. I hate talking to like my mom and she says "Hey I get that too!" but its total BS. I should mock up a few more things in photoshop.

Good talking with ya.


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## BlueTank

Here is a list of my symptoms

*
Symptoms*

*
Mental:*
Removed from body (Depersonalization)...............................DP/DR. Lack of attachment to the world I knew including emotions and general recognition
Things seem unreal
Things feel new
Detached from what was familiar
Intrusive Thoughts..............................................................Random thoughts pop into mind. Lack of concentration and focus.
Lack of concentration 
Heavy Memory Loss............................................................Short term and "Recall" memory issues. Day seems like a blur.
Severe Insomnia ...............................................................Heavy lack of ability to sleep. Wake up in middle of night
Loss of sensation ...............................................................Out of touch with feeling hungry/full or tired/awake and time
Spacial Temporal Reasoning................................................Loss of cognition

*Perceptual:*
"Tunnel Vision" or "Fish Bowl" ............................................ Peripheral vision is sensitive but blurry.
Paranoia 
Agoraphobia / Avoidant behavior
*
Visual:*
Light Sensitivity ............................................................ Light hurts my eyes. Things previously ok are now extra bright to me.
Astigmatism Myopia ......................................................... Double vision at a distance, _*especially Green Light*_ (total mystery)
Glare/bursts .................................................................... Glare off of bright things. Bursts off of flourescent or LED lights
Halos ............................................................................. Slight rainbow halo rings around edges of some lights
Stars/sparks ....................................................................Gold sparks in vision. Drifting "burn" sparks on occasion
Flaoters ...........................................................................Dark or Light floaters
Flashing Lights / Light Blobs................................................ Either in peripheral or while eyes are closed.
Visual Snow .....................................................................Noisy vision at night or when things are bad. Low light situations.
After Images....................................................................Positive and negative after images from any form of contrast after looking at something for only a bit.
Light Trials ...................................................................... Light trails in motion
*
Auditory:*
Sound sensitivity...............................................................Jumpy at sound. Things seem very loud and annoying.
Ringing in ear...................................................................Most often Left ear. Lasts a short period of time

*Bodily/Anxiety:*
Parathesia ........................................................................Muscle twitches and tingles around body and face
Anxiety buzzing.................................................................Burning sensation in extremities and back of neck.
Lump in throat


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## BlueTank

hard to do. Kind of exaggerated. But yeah I had to include those damn warbly light effect you get around the edge of your vision. wtf with those. 
For me, depending on the lighting/mood and all that it just reminds me of some sort of horror film filter. Surreal.










Damn LED's and all sorts of lights started to get a doubled look and glare to them overnight. Its like I can't really get a good focus even if I try. The closer I get the sharper and better it gets. The further away I get the more wacked out it gets. can anybody relate to that? Like a pitch black room with an LED for your monitor or something or a bright clock with strange visual artifacts coming off of it..


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## razer777

I can't really relate to your experience of tracers/trails/ghosting but I get that effect you have with LED lights. Especially when I'm tired or particularly stressed out. 
Nice house by the way


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## voidvoid

So is this somehow related to some kind of illness or dp/dr? I have had tinnnitus and "floaters" and visual snow and afterglow all my life. I used to freak out about it when I was a kid but then I learned to accept it. Recently the vision stuff has gotten worse tho. What is the bottom line with all of this?


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## grues0me

Inzom said:


> So is this somehow related to some kind of illness or dp/dr? I have had tinnnitus and "floaters" and visual snow and afterglow all my life. I used to freak out about it when I was a kid but then I learned to accept it. Recently the vision stuff has gotten worse tho. What is the bottom line with all of this?


Because of lights i hate driving at night. Especially the red lights have all those lines emitting from them, they heavilly confuse me. My radio/navigator display also.

I cant confirm the motion blurring, i havent seen that (yet).

My memory is also heavily affected. Cant recall simple names i heard yesterday. They may come from alone, but usually its just a void in my head.

Tunnel vision - check. All this "unreal" feeling, like a dream.

Concentration - check, cant focus on books anymore, even movies seem "2-dimensional", i just "consume" them, visually.

Floaters - check, got several of them.

Muscle twitches - my right lower eyelid just recently started to twitch from alone 60% of the day.

Lump in throat - very, very ofte. After i ate or drank i am constantly trying to get rid of this.

What i have to add: i sleep very well, feeling tired all day, even after a lot of sleep (which makes it worse).
I also wear glasses/lenses. My glasses worsen my DP. I have -4 on both eyes and i noticed when i remove my glasses/lenses
and take a walk outside, my head starts to "clear". This seems to be the case also with other people when they are under water.
So it may be the visual being a big part of it all.

EDIT: Have yourself checked for heterophoria. Its a form of being crosseyed, but not visible. One eyes always tries to drift away from a normal parallel situation and it needs to be corrected by the brain/eye muscles. I had that diagnosis and needed to wear prismatic glasses, that correct the eye axis. Sadly i had massive headaches from them, so i stopped wearing them. Sympthoms are those of DP, plus all the photos you show up there.


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## voidvoid

Inzom said:


> So is this somehow related to some kind of illness or dp/dr? I have had tinnnitus and "floaters" and visual snow and afterglow all my life. I used to freak out about it when I was a kid but then I learned to accept it. Recently the vision stuff has gotten worse tho. What is the bottom line with all of this?


Oh fuck in my current state of close to heatstroke and dehydration (Damn you sun! DAMN YOU!) I completely forgot that DR can get as bad as this thread describes for some people. HPPD or Hallucinogen persisting perception disorder is a very real thing. I appologize for my stupidity.


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## BlueTank

razer777 said:


> I can't really relate to your experience of tracers/trails/ghosting but I get that effect you have with LED lights. Especially when I'm tired or particularly stressed out.
> Nice house by the way


Well thats good. I concider all these visual things to be a big part of my DP. Razer, Is your DP/DR drug induced?

Oh, thats a random image from the internet and not my house







.


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## BlueTank

Inzom: Yeah I don't really know what to say. Its just my attempt to show (picture worth a thousand words) some of my DP effects. Yes this all came on with DP/DR and I never really did any drugs so i'm kind of wondering if more drug induced people get this stuff or not. If it matters or not. Also you raise a question of mine. You say "Is this some kind of illness or dp/dr" and it would be good for me to find out. I have really strange Astigmatism Myopia. It gets hard for me to think all my crap is just DP/DR related and there isn't something else. Although I seem to run into people who have the same crap.

gruesome: I will check into that. I've looked into so much stuff in the past its crazy. I get this strange thing where I see different colors doubled differently.

So for instance your at a stop light at night. it goes Green, to Yellow, to Red. Each color is not blurred the same way and not really in the same direction either. Green is heavily horizontal. yellow not so bad. and red is more vertical. Its fucking crazy! When people don't bring this type of shit up on the internet and forum you start to feel alone.... like DP/DR + Brain Damage or some shit.

Its possible I notice more things because i'm an artist. I see things quite differently in some ways.... long story there.


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## BlueTank

When I drive and i'm looking straight forward I can see after images. Its really bad on the heads of the street lamps because they are very dark with a light back ground. So they trail off just like in this image. I have a red arrow pointing towards one to show it. They get really bad with lack of sleep. Also The doubeling effect in the distance. I can see this on like the dashed road lines and the telephone poles. My driving glasses fix this ok, but i know its DP/DR because my doctor said my eyes are fine and the glasses used to fix things perfectly but I noticed on some bad days they don't do it as well. anyways....










Ok this one was a pain in the ass to do. I've tried describing it to people and talking to doctors about it and everybody just  at me. So please let me know if you can relate to this in any way fashion or form. please.

This image is to show how I see traffic lights. In this case its at night and all the lights are lit up (yeah i know that doesn't happen). As you can see the green is pretty horizontally blurred and doubled and as you get further away from it the doubling gets further apart. example : *(O) o o . .*

The red is kinda more vertical and Yellow not so bad. Blue light is pretty bad and is kinda like green.

I get this during hte day too, espcially on Green lights. Looking up ahead to see what the situation is i will often see 2 green lights for one actual light. and they arent really blurred too much. they are actually decently sharp. just doubled. The stuff around it wont be doubled. meaning the box holding hte lights. the pole. all that stuff wont be as bad. only slightly doubled.










Any insight is appreciated.


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## grues0me

BlueTank said:


> When I drive and i'm looking straight forward I can see after images. Its really bad on the heads of the street lamps because they are very dark with a light back ground. So they trail off just like in this image. I have a red arrow pointing towards one to show it. They get really bad with lack of sleep. Also The doubeling effect in the distance. I can see this on like the dashed road lines and the telephone poles. My driving glasses fix this ok, but i know its DP/DR because my doctor said my eyes are fine and the glasses used to fix things perfectly but I noticed on some bad days they don't do it as well. anyways....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok this one was a pain in the ass to do. I've tried describing it to people and talking to doctors about it and everybody just  at me. So please let me know if you can relate to this in any way fashion or form. please.
> 
> This image is to show how I see traffic lights. In this case its at night and all the lights are lit up (yeah i know that doesn't happen). As you can see the green is pretty horizontally blurred and doubled and as you get further away from it the doubling gets further apart. example : *(O) o o . .*
> 
> The red is kinda more vertical and Yellow not so bad. Blue light is pretty bad and is kinda like green.
> 
> I get this during hte day too, espcially on Green lights. Looking up ahead to see what the situation is i will often see 2 green lights for one actual light. and they arent really blurred too much. they are actually decently sharp. just doubled. The stuff around it wont be doubled. meaning the box holding hte lights. the pole. all that stuff wont be as bad. only slightly doubled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any insight is appreciated.


Thats exactly what i described. My doctor explained it as a "comet tail" you see when you watch colors/lights. Reading on the internet, especially with a lot of contrast (white, worse is yellow, on black) the letters have this tail or "smear". But its definately a visual prob with me.


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## spierdalaj

http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/health/hppd/

On trails:
"It has been suggested that inhibition of the brain's inhibitory mechanisms might lead to decreased ability to screen out some sensory inputs (5). Other suggestions include permanent brain damage, gradual release of stored drug metabolite, conditioned response, and learned reaction to anxiety (3). Rosenthal (6) suggested that certain visual distortions secondary to LSD ingestion are caused by transient electro-physiological changes."


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## BlueTank

grues0me said:


> Thats exactly what i described. My doctor explained it as a "comet tail" you see when you watch colors/lights. Reading on the internet, especially with a lot of contrast (white, worse is yellow, on black) the letters have this tail or "smear". But its definately a visual prob with me.


Thanks for the response grues0me. The comet trails your talking about are from the driving image right? Which also makes me assume that you would see comet tails on like headlights on cars driving by on the other side of the highway etc..

Yeah I can get a slight ghost of text above text while reading on the internet. Dark bars will become after-image highlights for tings. Like the damn 2 blue bars on this here DPSelfHelp site. As I look around I get light versions of them and if its dark around outside of my monitor those 2 blue bars materialize as noisy yellow bars!!!!

You know those things on the internets where its like "look at this image for one minute and then look over" to see a flower or jesus or something...... its like "look at this image for 1 minute, or if you have DP/DR look at it for 3 seconds."

What about the street lights? Do you get anything like that?

thanks again


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## BlueTank

spierdalaj said:


> http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/health/hppd/
> 
> On trails:
> "It has been suggested that inhibition of the brain's inhibitory mechanisms might lead to decreased ability to screen out some sensory inputs (5). Other suggestions include permanent brain damage, gradual release of stored drug metabolite, conditioned response, and learned reaction to anxiety (3). Rosenthal (6) suggested that certain visual distortions secondary to LSD ingestion are caused by transient electro-physiological changes."


Cool thanks. i've looked into HPPD stuff. I don't have as bad of HPPD as a lot of people do. Not enough to say I really have it I guess. I dunno. But its enough that it bothers me, especially since i'm an artist.

The only illegal drugs i've ever done as far as I know is smoking non-laced pot about 10 times. One time I smoked a LOT and it was "trippy".. Could that cause these permenent effects, independant of DP? 12 years later.

I'm trying to figure this shit out. I have a lot of the same stuff other people have, but a few things seem to be extra fucked up. Is there a way to find out if I have brian damage at all? Damage to the visual part of my brain?

As far as I know i've never taken LSD. I hardly touched legal medication. cigs. nothing.


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## spierdalaj

One of the suggestions is a learned reaction to anxiety. Dp may be accredited to that too. I'm doubtful that it's brain damage, but I don't see why it shouldn't come up if you were to get scanned for it. I don't have trails but it sounds like a delayed reaction of some sort, right?

My big thing is static/snow.

"Another suggestion is that visual snow is in fact always there, and it is not until adrenaline levels are raised that people begin to notice it. People who suffer from Anxiety disorders such as GAD (generalised anxiety disorder) often mistake "symptoms" such as visual snow and other natural/normal physiological phenomenons (blue field entoptic phenomenon, floaters, halos, light trails) to be life threatening, when in actual fact they have just not noticed them before."

It all comes down to adrenaline or MS.


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## BlueTank

spierdalaj said:


> One of the suggestions is a learned reaction to anxiety. Dp may be accredited to that too. I'm doubtful that it's brain damage, but I don't see why it shouldn't come up if you were to get scanned for it. I don't have trails but it sounds like a delayed reaction of some sort, right?
> 
> My big thing is static/snow.
> 
> "Another suggestion is that visual snow is in fact always there, and it is not until adrenaline levels are raised that people begin to notice it. People who suffer from Anxiety disorders such as GAD (generalised anxiety disorder) often mistake "symptoms" such as visual snow and other natural/normal physiological phenomenons (blue field entoptic phenomenon, floaters, halos, light trails) to be life threatening, when in actual fact they have just not noticed them before."
> 
> It all comes down to adrenaline or MS.


I had an MRI done and they said it was fine. I dont know all that an MRI could determine though. I go to see the doctor in a couple of weeks, so i'll have to ask him about everything he can determine from my MRI.

Perhaps delayed reaction, but I believe a lot of effects are tied to the "light sensitivity". I'm an artist and I know photography stuff so I have a very close sense of my own sight, terminology and blah blah... So like with a camera you can set the aperture and have the lense open longer. This can create cool effects like trails and whatever. I feel like my brain has some sort of light sensitivity thing (fight or flight mode / adrenaline) or whatever going on that makes it so that light hurts. For instance I noticed that hte bright white on my monitor hurts my eyes. I've been using these monitors for art closely for ages. I think that that can kinda cause heavy glare and possibly the halos. These are things that I noticed before any real "DP" or anything. I just kept noticing how odd things looked and how it seemed like I had a weird time recognizing friends. Kind of like a concussion. Later I would notice more things because I was looking, i'm sure.









I don't get much snow, but yes, when i was freaking out once I had HEAVY snow and some vertigo. Basically my family says we have a panic disorder problem where too much adrenaline is being pumped out. Your fine, and then one day your body starts pumping adrenaline and all sorts of shit happens.

I find my situation "life threatening" in the sense of losing my career and subsequently my house. In having trouble discerning reality and being unreliable or handicapped for certain things i.e. night driving. all due to the myriad of symptoms I have thanks to "X" where X is whatever... DP/DR.. + Panic. Brain damage? all of the above. I don't know.

I get these effects almost all the time. so do i just always have some adrenaline/anxiety going? Seems odd. seems like I could take a xanax and watch some of these symptoms truly fade away.


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## BlueTank

woops, double posted.


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## spierdalaj

I don't know what to say, lol. I know little about photography but supposedly the camera is similar to the eye? Also glad to hear that your MRI was fine.








I can only speak for myself but I do have constant, unrelenting, high adrenaline and anxiety. And no way to aquire benzos so eh. Off-topic: I was at some random person's house and I started thinking about static. I looked at it and it began to change, it looked as if though the air was becoming gelatinous or something lol. Yep.


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## BlueTank

spierdalaj said:


> I don't know what to say, lol. I know little about photography but supposedly the camera is similar to the eye? Also glad to hear that your MRI was fine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can only speak for myself but I do have constant, unrelenting, high adrenaline and anxiety. And no way to aquire benzos so eh. Off-topic: I was at some random person's house and I started thinking about static. I looked at it and it began to change, it looked as if though the air was becoming gelatinous or something lol. Yep.


Yeah its been reccomended to me to run 30 minutes daily to try to burn off adrenaline. I get Parasthesia from/when the adrenaline/anxiety kicks in. Theres been time when its pretty bad too.

So why is there no real medication for controlling adrenaline? As far as i've researched theres not really much in the way of controlling adrenaline output and i read and hear that it is huge in panic disorder.

That sucks you can't get Benzos. I recently started Klonopin and its probably the best thing for my situation so far. I hate taking it but I need to atleast try it out for now. I hope to stay away from long term use. I've been taking a grand sum of 2mg/day currently which is scary. ugh.


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## razer777

I'm pretty sure one of the functions of adrenaline is to keep your heart beating so I imagine anything that blocked the action of adrenaline directly would have serious (lethal?) side effects or at least knock you out. Anti-anxiety meds will decrease adrenaline (albeit, indirectly by calming you down).


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## grues0me

BlueTank said:


> Thanks for the response grues0me. The comet trails your talking about are from the driving image right? Which also makes me assume that you would see comet tails on like headlights on cars driving by on the other side of the highway etc..
> 
> Yeah I can get a slight ghost of text above text while reading on the internet. Dark bars will become after-image highlights for tings. Like the damn 2 blue bars on this here DPSelfHelp site. As I look around I get light versions of them and if its dark around outside of my monitor those 2 blue bars materialize as noisy yellow bars!!!!
> 
> You know those things on the internets where its like "look at this image for one minute and then look over" to see a flower or jesus or something...... its like "look at this image for 1 minute, or if you have DP/DR look at it for 3 seconds."
> 
> What about the street lights? Do you get anything like that?
> 
> thanks again


Yes, all you described. As i stated, at night, when the contrast of lights (car lights, streets lights, incoming cars from other lane) against the darkness is extreme, i see those "smears" or comet tails a lot and they confuse me a lot driving.

Some good glasses can fix this for good.

I was thinking i was going crazy because i suffered from this for years, but now i know i have a "lazy eye".


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## BlueTank

grues0me said:


> Yes, all you described. As i stated, at night, when the contrast of lights (car lights, streets lights, incoming cars from other lane) against the darkness is extreme, i see those "smears" or comet tails a lot and they confuse me a lot driving.
> 
> Some good glasses can fix this for good.
> 
> I was thinking i was going crazy because i suffered from this for years, but now i know i have a "lazy eye".


Hrm. I have glasses that sharpen things a lot and help the doubling in the distance but they don't really do anything for the odd effects.

So a lot of those effects can be fixed? By like Prismatic glasses? I figure a lot of the problems people have are from Light Sensitivity. How would that be managed?

Should I go talk to my ophthalmologist about these things? or do you think he'll just look at me like I'm crazy?

Gah the more I try to learn the more confused I get !







.


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## Zee Deveel

Ah man, yeah I get a lot of visual distortion and it terrifies me, makes me think I've got brain damage from taking drugs.

Mostly for me though everything I look at just looks really, really fuzzy. I get some trails and some minor hallucinations but mostly just the entire world looks fuzzy.

I've tried quite a few drugs, the only one I ever took semi-regularly was ecstasy though, never smoked weed. I tried LSD a few times but I always felt fine after and I think HPPD tend to come on pretty much straight away? My visual problems came a long time after I stopped taking any hallucinogens.

I had an MRI done which came back 'normal' - whatever that means and my doctor said he's never heard of anyone getting symptoms like this from taking ecstasy. I also know plenty of people who have done a LOT more drugs than me, none of whom have ever complained of anything like this. All of whom tend to be much more chilled people than me.

So I guess it's anxiety but fuck knows... When you feel like this, it's so hard to accept that you're just stressed isn't it.


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## BlueTank

Zee Deveel said:


> Ah man, yeah I get a lot of visual distortion and it terrifies me, makes me think I've got brain damage from taking drugs.
> 
> Mostly for me though everything I look at just looks really, really fuzzy. I get some trails and some minor hallucinations but mostly just the entire world looks fuzzy.
> 
> I've tried quite a few drugs, the only one I ever took semi-regularly was ecstasy though, never smoked weed. I tried LSD a few times but I always felt fine after and I think HPPD tend to come on pretty much straight away? My visual problems came a long time after I stopped taking any hallucinogens.
> 
> I had an MRI done which came back 'normal' - whatever that means and my doctor said he's never heard of anyone getting symptoms like this from taking ecstasy. I also know plenty of people who have done a LOT more drugs than me, none of whom have ever complained of anything like this. All of whom tend to be much more chilled people than me.
> 
> So I guess it's anxiety but fuck knows... When you feel like this, it's so hard to accept that you're just stressed isn't it.


How long after taking any hallucinogens did they come on? And I take it they came on when DP/DR did? What triggered that?

Yeah really just one bad weed experience 12 years ago for me. I have no clue if it is contributing in any way to the effects I have now.

Man, just anxiety... all the time. Seems like you'd hear about more success or acute cases if that was all it was for everybody. I mean my dad is chill with no anxiety and no problems, but he says he still can't stand fluorescent lights. Like the DP/DR stuff just stays around. fucked if i know


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## rob35235

Yes, I get this.. I told my psychiatrist about it and he said it was "palinopsia". I call it LSD vision


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## Zee Deveel

BlueTank said:


> How long after taking any hallucinogens did they come on? And I take it they came on when DP/DR did? What triggered that?


I doubt I'd taken any acid or mushrooms within about 12 months of this happening.

All the visual shit started happening at the same time and it was just after my girlfriend left me. I was super stressed out and upset, so again that indicates that it's anxiety related but I can't help but feel drugs may have helped this. Even though I hadn't taken any for a while.

Who knows?


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## BlueTank

rob35235 said:


> Yes, I get this.. I told my psychiatrist about it and he said it was "palinopsia". I call it LSD vision


Had you done drugs like LSD or weed etc... before DP? Do you think it contributed?
thanks man


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## rob35235

BlueTank said:


> Had you done drugs like LSD or weed etc... before DP? Do you think it contributed?
> thanks man


Weed yes, LSD no...and no I don't think it contributed honestly because I got worse 3 years after I'd not so much as taken a single puff of weed.


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## BlueTank

rob35235 said:


> Weed yes, LSD no...and no I don't think it contributed honestly because I got worse 3 years after I'd not so much as taken a single puff of weed.


Cool thanks Rob and Zee Deveel. Ok yeah my brother said it really kicked off for him about 4 years ago (rough patch with girlfriend/physical health) and he has told me that its gotten a lot worse since. No drugs or anything and he's happy. He says he has really bad after-images.

Zee Deveel: I don't think I really have anxiety over much. But around the time I DP'd I had started a new relationship and I think that contributed. Lots of stress and anxiety over it. I should have seen it.


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## BlueTank

WANTTOBEBETTER said:


> Hi Bluetank,
> 
> I get these also, we have talked about this subject before. I see the same thing as your excellent picture of the hand moving toward the doorknob, except the trails,afterimage,slow motion appearance is usually white in color no matter what is moving. It only happens in dim lighting. In the sunshine or in a store, or when the lights are on I dont get it. When I wild into a fairly dim room, as I go throught the door, I get and instant afterimage of the white door jamb, and it goes away in instantly.


This is true, it is colorless "white". I should fix my image. I definitly noticed it is colorless like its only the light that remains. and only where the light hits etc.. (high contrast). I most definitly relate to the door jamb thing. Shiney Door knobs. Or if theres no door and I walk fast around a corner from a light room into a dark room the edge of the light wall sort of "tears" off and continues for a second.

I mostly just replied to concur that yes it is colorless, especially in action. The blue bars on this web site create yellow after images for me. but thats from starring. not motion.


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## BlueTank

My vision is getting worse! I get more vertical now. It used to mostly just be horizontal and Red light was a little bit vertical, but now I get heavier vertical, almost as bad as the horizontal!!!

I can especially tell because the glasses I had that helped fix this don't do as well anymore.

I really hope it doesn't get any worse. I don't have as much anxiety as I used to. Perhaps the klonopin is helping make it worse.

night driving really sucks

Seriously nobody else on the planet has double vision that is different based on the color of the light!?


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## BlueTank

I believe its getting worse! Here is a quick depiction of what the moon looks like. This is hard to do, especially right before bed really quick.

The Left depicts normal vision of the moon more or less. The middle is kind of what I remember when DP set in and I started having bad night vision. The moon was kinda doubled around, mostly horizontal, slightly vertical.

The Right is what I see tonight if I step outside and look up at the moon. More or less. Yes this includes the colors in it which makes sense logically with my post on Street Lights with Green (and blue.. cool colors) being horizontal and Red (warm colors) being more vertical. Its got to be some sort of odd chromatic aberration.

Its hard to convey this because its tricky. My vision is really strange and fluxuates.

If anybody can relate or have any comments PLEASE respond. Some of this stuff is what truly freaked me out from the get go and I couldn't find anything out there like it. Its been hard to even find similarities in the DP/DR arena. BTW My vision is "20/20" and my eyes are fine according to my ophthalmologist. I have far less anxiety and issues now and yet my vision continues like this.


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## septimus

BlueTank said:


> Seriously nobody else on the planet has double vision that is different based on the color of the light!?


I do! It's just not as bad as your pictures. Also I noticed my snow is horrible now. I have to pick out a color for my new bedroom and I can't decide because everything looks "dirty" to me. Argahhaghagah. It's anxiety that I can't feel.


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## Visual

Bluetank:

It just about blew my mind when I saw your moon picture, then the car radio and finally arm. Then on your profile you list "Effects Perception, Vision, Sound, Smell, Taste, sleep, memory, emotions, concentration and overall cognition/spatial reasoning". If you add some peripheral nerve problems (numbness) then you are talking about me.

I could blat on endlessly about the last 3 years of my life with this but will try to control myself a little.

I got some excellent diagnosis and have medication that helps -- not just manage but actually have some improvement even when discontinuing meds.

Would like to share notes. But first, are you interested?
Do you have problems with contrast with your vision?
Do you have increased sensitivity in you peripheral vision? (lower/outer areas in the direction of your moon blurs)
Has you sense of smell decreased?
Can learn and do things but have problems with making simple decisions? (and other executive function issues)
Just before your symptoms started, were you in a building or meet in a room that has a strong carpet smell?

As for this moon picture - gabapentin and medications to increase dopamine mostly resolve this. Same with the arm movement problem - though I had less blur and more choppiness. Somewhat like akinstopia (motion blindness) but with a 'frame-rate' of about 1 second.

P.S. Great pictures (worth a thousand words) for communicating the problem


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## ludwig80

Visual Dude,

Don't mean to hijack, but just thought I would chime in.

Dude, it BLEW my mind reading your post. I haven't really heard anyone else talking about motion blur, but I definitely suffer from this. It's my worst symptom for sure. Going on about 5 month straight of it with a slow frame rate. I haven't found much about it either on the internet. I am visiting a Neurologist tomorrow, it would be great to hear from you!

Would like to share notes. But first, are you interested? *Absolutely!*
Do you have problems with contrast with your vision? * Yes, i tend to struggle contrasting objects as the move in front of a background.. if that makes any sense..*
Do you have increased sensitivity in you peripheral vision? (lower/outer areas in the direction of your moon blurs) * I feel like my peripheral is worse, wicked tracers, things have a stop motion effect and it's much more pronounced than anywhere else.*
Has you sense of smell decreased? * I've always had a really terrible sense of smell.*
Can learn and do things but have problems with making simple decisions? (and other executive function issues) * I taught myself many instruments, write my own music bought to graduate from college soon hopefully but my decision making usually goes through a coin flip. I'm indecisive and for some reason I tend to have a difficult time thinking critically.*
Just before your symptoms started, were you in a building or meet in a room that has a strong carpet smell? * Initally, I believe I was at school when things got intensely worse, but I don't remember a smell. Like I said though, I rarely can smell anything. I'm interested in why carpet smell? *

By the way, Blue Tank, I have a lot of these double vision problems. I always thoght it was due to my astigmatism and never wearing my glasses for it. I noticed I get that double vision in just one eye even. Which is really strange. My vision constantly changes in that regard thogh, sometimes it's there someetimes it's not. The above choppiness, slow frame rate problem however is constant and ruthless.

As far as the tracers, yes I have this as well all day everyday. It's annoying as well. I've had vision problems for close to 3 years now. Can't believe it's been this long. But for a good while things seemed to have calmed down before firing back up wayyyy worse about 5 months ago.

Great picture man.



Visual Dude said:


> Bluetank:
> 
> It just about blew my mind when I saw your moon picture, then the car radio and finally arm. Then on your profile you list "Effects Perception, Vision, Sound, Smell, Taste, sleep, memory, emotions, concentration and overall cognition/spatial reasoning". If you add some peripheral nerve problems (numbness) then you are talking about me.
> 
> I could blat on endlessly about the last 3 years of my life with this but will try to control myself a little.
> 
> I got some excellent diagnosis and have medication that helps -- not just manage but actually have some improvement even when discontinuing meds.
> 
> Would like to share notes. But first, are you interested?
> Do you have problems with contrast with your vision?
> Do you have increased sensitivity in you peripheral vision? (lower/outer areas in the direction of your moon blurs)
> Has you sense of smell decreased?
> Can learn and do things but have problems with making simple decisions? (and other executive function issues)
> Just before your symptoms started, were you in a building or meet in a room that has a strong carpet smell?
> 
> As for this moon picture - gabapentin and medications to increase dopamine mostly resolve this. Same with the arm movement problem - though I had less blur and more choppiness. Somewhat like akinstopia (motion blindness) but with a 'frame-rate' of about 1 second.
> 
> P.S. Great pictures (worth a thousand words) for communicating the problem


----------



## Visual

Where do I start &#8230; there is much to cover &#8230; I believe knowledge empowers (but it takes time to sink in) so feel the need to explain a number of things. (Haven't related my story yet either and it takes so much time to do). Will likely refer to PD (Parkinson's Disease) at lot though it may seem unrelated at first. Will TRY to be terse then people can ask more.

*First, the good news*. There is stuff you can do. Also, understanding brings relief.

*Next, the not so good news*. Trying different medications requires doctors who understand - at least some - and are willing to try. I have to speak in terms of the health care system in this country (USA). Fragmented is a good word. There are at least 3 problems with doctors around here: 1) time constraints ($$$), 2) skill level, and 3) worry from lawsuits. The latter two cause doctors to try to rely on blood tests and imaging rather than their own perceptions, training and experience (the latter type of diagnosis is called clinical.) With PD, the ONLY way to know for sure is to due an autopsy (a bit late for getting help) - the damage does not show in a MRI or EEG. (Some progress is being made with PET scans.) So again diagnosis is clinical.

One of my counselors is a professor at the local college. When I started working with her she stated "medicine is not an exact science and, unfortunately, psychology is even less exact". I have seen several Neurologists but only two have had any understanding - both are involved in research. My advice for picking doctors is look for someone who is compassionate and someone who researches or at least likes to win.

*Now some principles*:

"Sick people are emotional and emotional people are sick". In Eastern medicine, skilled master healers can read this stuff by patterns in the meridians. Improper flow or balance (Yin/Yang) will result in progression of disease.

Depersonalization disorder has been regarded as the result of severe abuse in childhood. Medical research with PET scans, etc. show changes in brain function. So brain injury is related either through abusive 'training' or by imbalance.

Both Western and Eastern medicine recognize that neuro-toxicity depends on liver and kidney functions. The areas most susceptible to damage are the nervous system, brain and eyes. The brain normally cannot make new cells whereas your skin or liver could.

So brain health depends on:
1) Genes
2) Liver/kidney function - ability to remove toxins
3) Overall health, energy and diet
4) Exposure including stress

This is finally being recognized in PD, Autism, and other diseases. If and how a person is damaged depends on the above. This has caused confusion. It is like smoking cigarettes - after decades it is now admitted to be dangerous, but whether you get cancer or lung disease seems almost random.

Exposures can be subtle. This is my case. A new building used by 200 people. The carpet smells. Twenty people can't use the building anymore because of respiratory distress and/or rashes and some more had headaches or sinus irritation. Two people (myself as one) have developed weird brain damage. My diagnosis is Toxic Encephalopathy.

Basically, encephalopathy is brain injury. Many things can cause it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encephalopathy "Encephalopathy alters brain function and/or structure. It may be caused by an infectious agent (bacteria, virus, or prion), metabolic or mitochondrial dysfunction, brain tumor or increased intracranial pressure, exposure to toxins (including solvents, drugs, vaccines, alcohol, paints, industrial chemicals, and certain metals), radiation, trauma, poor nutrition, or lack of oxygen or blood flow to the brain."

Generally with brain injury there is swelling. It takes about 10 months (after cause has been stopped) for the swelling to be completely gone. Swelling causes excessive neuron activity and thus burnout (aging or failure) like a racing engine. Therefore it is common to treat people with anti-convulsants even if you are not epileptic (slow the excitement). It is also known that after brain injury, damage (symptoms) may continue to increase weeks after the injury. In my case, because there was a time lag between being in the building and the damage, it took me 5 months to figure out that the building was lethal for me. [Thus my paranoia about smelling carpets and other VOCs. And the question about such smells.]

What parts get damaged depend on a person's weakness (genes or prior injury) and exposure. Further it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that with DP there is possible dysfunction in the brain that makes for weakness in the area.

An herbalist kept asking me if I had PD. Other than an insignificant tremor in one arm, the idea seemed ridiculous. Finally I looked up PD. What as stunning was reading the non-motor problems that I had: visual contrast, visuospacial skills, loss of smell, sleeping problems, anxiety, difficulty making simple decisions. I looked up 43 other neurological diseases and none had even near this combination.

PD involves damage to the dopaminergic neurons. In learning about PD, it turns out that there are dopamine receptors on the back of each photosensor in the retina and thus with the advanced disease people have contrast problems. Further, the brain uses contrast to determine depth perception even more that triangulation (having two eyes).

My visual symptoms involved contrast problems, starbursts like the radio picture BlueTank provided, not seeing black when closing eyes, flat walls can seem convex, 3D perception gone initially then back exaggerated, and something like motions blindness with about a 1 second frame rate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akinetopsia [Note: this motion problem has not ever been reported regarding PD.]

So I was prescribed Wellbutrin at first then Sinemet (levodopa - the chemical precursor of dopamine) due to the success of the first. I was stunned how things improved even in the first day. It was beyond expectation and quite frankly I don't know how anyone else could believe it. The motion 'frame-rate' has cut in half. Even now it is so close to normal I would have never been able to properly understand that is was delayed motion.

*So with this stuff in mind I recommend*:

Look up some of this stuff to get more familiar. One good resource has been: http://www.chemicalinjury.net. Please scan my diagnosis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_encephalopathy and http://www.chemicalinjury.net/MC/23%20Toxic%20Encephalopathy.doc.

Find a doctor familiar with toxic exposure causing brain damage. The most likely specialist will be "Environmental and Occupational Medicine". Show him this post if you want.

Find any doctor who will consider this possibility and try you on a dopamine agonist. My favorite is Sinemet but Wellbutrin has been remarkable effective. Also Requip and others for RLS.

The medications I have been using are: Sinemet 25/100 (only ½ pill 3 times), Wellbutrin CR (only 75mg in morning), Gabapentin (300mg 6 times at first but now 2-3 times), and Klonopin 0.5 twice daily.

Try to identify what has caused the problem - remember it can take a long time for the first symptoms to show. If your condition is getting worse this is especially important so as to eliminate the exposure. Of course aging may cause advancement. Medication can too (though this is usually only while taking it). Anti-psychotics reduce dopamine and can cause PD like symptoms: tremors, muscle stiffness/spasm, etc.

Diet is important, but will talk about that later if someone wishes. Nutritional support is also important and there is food for the nervous system for its repair. But this post is already quite long and will never end if all is to be said.

Sorry this was so long but there is much to digest and consider and still to tell. And just because some stranger says something over the internet doesn't mean it is true - so you need to research. Again, in this country, you need to become your own health advocate and researcher (which is a pain in the butt and exhausting). I hope this info is helpful.


----------



## ludwig80

Visual Dude said:


> Where do I start &#8230; there is much to cover &#8230; I believe knowledge empowers (but it takes time to sink in) so feel the need to explain a number of things. (Haven't related my story yet either and it takes so much time to do). Will likely refer to PD (Parkinson's Disease) at lot though it may seem unrelated at first. Will TRY to be terse then people can ask more.
> 
> *First, the good news*. There is stuff you can do. Also, understanding brings relief.
> 
> *Next, the not so good news*. Trying different medications requires doctors who understand - at least some - and are willing to try. I have to speak in terms of the health care system in this country (USA). Fragmented is a good word. There are at least 3 problems with doctors around here: 1) time constraints ($$$), 2) skill level, and 3) worry from lawsuits. The latter two cause doctors to try to rely on blood tests and imaging rather than their own perceptions, training and experience (the latter type of diagnosis is called clinical.) With PD, the ONLY way to know for sure is to due an autopsy (a bit late for getting help) - the damage does not show in a MRI or EEG. (Some progress is being made with PET scans.) So again diagnosis is clinical.
> 
> One of my counselors is a professor at the local college. When I started working with her she stated "medicine is not an exact science and, unfortunately, psychology is even less exact". I have seen several Neurologists but only two have had any understanding - both are involved in research. My advice for picking doctors is look for someone who is compassionate and someone who researches or at least likes to win.
> 
> *Now some principles*:
> 
> "Sick people are emotional and emotional people are sick". In Eastern medicine, skilled master healers can read this stuff by patterns in the meridians. Improper flow or balance (Yin/Yang) will result in progression of disease.
> 
> Depersonalization disorder has been regarded as the result of severe abuse in childhood. Medical research with PET scans, etc. show changes in brain function. So brain injury is related either through abusive 'training' or by imbalance.
> 
> Both Western and Eastern medicine recognize that neuro-toxicity depends on liver and kidney functions. The areas most susceptible to damage are the nervous system, brain and eyes. The brain normally cannot make new cells whereas your skin or liver could.
> 
> So brain health depends on:
> 1) Genes
> 2) Liver/kidney function - ability to remove toxins
> 3) Overall health, energy and diet
> 4) Exposure including stress
> 
> This is finally being recognized in PD, Autism, and other diseases. If and how a person is damaged depends on the above. This has caused confusion. It is like smoking cigarettes - after decades it is now admitted to be dangerous, but whether you get cancer or lung disease seems almost random.
> 
> Exposures can be subtle. This is my case. A new building used by 200 people. The carpet smells. Twenty people can't use the building anymore because of respiratory distress and/or rashes and some more had headaches or sinus irritation. Two people (myself as one) have developed weird brain damage. My diagnosis is Toxic Encephalopathy.
> 
> Basically, encephalopathy is brain injury. Many things can cause it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encephalopathy "Encephalopathy alters brain function and/or structure. It may be caused by an infectious agent (bacteria, virus, or prion), metabolic or mitochondrial dysfunction, brain tumor or increased intracranial pressure, exposure to toxins (including solvents, drugs, vaccines, alcohol, paints, industrial chemicals, and certain metals), radiation, trauma, poor nutrition, or lack of oxygen or blood flow to the brain."
> 
> Generally with brain injury there is swelling. It takes about 10 months (after cause has been stopped) for the swelling to be completely gone. Swelling causes excessive neuron activity and thus burnout (aging or failure) like a racing engine. Therefore it is common to treat people with anti-convulsants even if you are not epileptic (slow the excitement). It is also known that after brain injury, damage (symptoms) may continue to increase weeks after the injury. In my case, because there was a time lag between being in the building and the damage, it took me 5 months to figure out that the building was lethal for me. [Thus my paranoia about smelling carpets and other VOCs. And the question about such smells.]
> 
> What parts get damaged depend on a person's weakness (genes or prior injury) and exposure. Further it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that with DP there is possible dysfunction in the brain that makes for weakness in the area.
> 
> An herbalist kept asking me if I had PD. Other than an insignificant tremor in one arm, the idea seemed ridiculous. Finally I looked up PD. What as stunning was reading the non-motor problems that I had: visual contrast, visuospacial skills, loss of smell, sleeping problems, anxiety, difficulty making simple decisions. I looked up 43 other neurological diseases and none had even near this combination.
> 
> PD involves damage to the dopaminergic neurons. In learning about PD, it turns out that there are dopamine receptors on the back of each photosensor in the retina and thus with the advanced disease people have contrast problems. Further, the brain uses contrast to determine depth perception even more that triangulation (having two eyes).
> 
> My visual symptoms involved contrast problems, starbursts like the radio picture BlueTank provided, not seeing black when closing eyes, flat walls can seem convex, 3D perception gone initially then back exaggerated, and something like motions blindness with about a 1 second frame rate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akinetopsia [Note: this motion problem has not ever been reported regarding PD.]
> 
> So I was prescribed Wellbutrin at first then Sinemet (levodopa - the chemical precursor of dopamine) due to the success of the first. I was stunned how things improved even in the first day. It was beyond expectation and quite frankly I don't know how anyone else could believe it. The motion 'frame-rate' has cut in half. Even now it is so close to normal I would have never been able to properly understand that is was delayed motion.
> 
> *So with this stuff in mind I recommend*:
> 
> Look up some of this stuff to get more familiar. One good resource has been: http://www.chemicalinjury.net. Please scan my diagnosis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_encephalopathy and http://www.chemicalinjury.net/MC/23%20Toxic%20Encephalopathy.doc.
> 
> Find a doctor familiar with toxic exposure causing brain damage. The most likely specialist will be "Environmental and Occupational Medicine". Show him this post if you want.
> 
> Find any doctor who will consider this possibility and try you on a dopamine agonist. My favorite is Sinemet but Wellbutrin has been remarkable effective. Also Requip and others for RLS.
> 
> The medications I have been using are: Sinemet 25/100 (only ½ pill 3 times), Wellbutrin CR (only 75mg in morning), Gabapentin (300mg 6 times at first but now 2-3 times), and Klonopin 0.5 twice daily.
> 
> Try to identify what has caused the problem - remember it can take a long time for the first symptoms to show. If your condition is getting worse this is especially important so as to eliminate the exposure. Of course aging may cause advancement. Medication can too (though this is usually only while taking it). Anti-psychotics reduce dopamine and can cause PD like symptoms: tremors, muscle stiffness/spasm, etc.
> 
> Diet is important, but will talk about that later if someone wishes. Nutritional support is also important and there is food for the nervous system for its repair. But this post is already quite long and will never end if all is to be said.
> 
> Sorry this was so long but there is much to digest and consider and still to tell. And just because some stranger says something over the internet doesn't mean it is true - so you need to research. Again, in this country, you need to become your own health advocate and researcher (which is a pain in the butt and exhausting). I hope this info is helpful.


Tons of great information! I have so many questions and I would love to hear about your personal story of dealing with it all and your path to where you are today... I'm sure you have been through alot. So whenever you find the time!

First off, how are you doing now?
How long did your symptoms persist before you realized you could not work in the building anymore?
Also, did you ever find out exactly what the chemical toxin was? 
Would you say your slow frame rate vision was constant continuous? 
I would love to hear your thoughts on nutrition as well.

I quickly run through my story to see if you can relate in any way. The whole story is here : http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/22945-slow-vision-problem/page__p__201754__hl__choppy__fromsearch__1&#entry201754 BUT I will try to save you some time and summarize!

I have a sluggish liver from a condition known as Gilberts syndrome. Which I feel dictates how I feel day to day already. My problems began when I had a long night with some buddies. Had a bunch of drinks- next day, hungover as usual( doesn't matter whether I had 2 beers 10 I always get one) I was studying at school and my vision become choppy. It was episodic for about a year, mostly from stress or if I had drank. (So i rarely did) Then it came on hard 24/7 from stress, I presume. I think my catalysts are stress and alcohol. So for the past 5 months I have no drank and I have attempted to control stress as much as possible(which is difficult when you have no idea what is going on with you). I have changed my diet, I only eat meat and vegetables. Occasionaly I'll have some beans and nuts. I keep my carbs to a minimum, no sugar and nothing besides water and hot tea.

I entirely agree with your thoughts on our healthcare, I have done as much research as I could and I must agree that in my search Parkinsons came up quite a bit as I was researching my symptoms. I never put two and two together however but alo to the spacial and visual issues seem similar. Yet, I never really made it to far it seemed, these symptoms seemed to be quite rare. My medical history has been--

After man regular doctors and blood tests- I met with a neuro-opthamologist who sent me for EEG. (MRI, Cat scan, & amnigoram came up fine) EEG Results show some kind of seizure like activity that would come and go and spread from the temporal lobe- so I was sent to a Neurologist who said potential epilepsy so I set up a second opinion.. Fastforward today the neurologist specializes in epilepsy said none of my systems sounded like Epilepsy and that EEG's are open to interpretation.. He wants to send me to a different neuro-opthamologist around town. I'm just passing through hands it seems.

Reading your words is the first time if felt like I have received any real concrete answers. I am fully aware not everything works for everyone but I am certainly willing to try anything.
I am honestly terrified of prescription drugs,the possibility of making things worse and etc. But I am willing to try anything in hopes of some kind of aid.

Take care.


----------



## BlueTank

Hey man thanks for the response! Where to begin. What do you mean by peripheral nerve problems exactly? I get a lot of buzzing/burning feelings. and a lot of muscle twitches and all that. I have other links to my symptoms and what not I believe at footer of my posts.

To answer your Questions.

1. Yes, I would be interested in Sharing notes. Sadly it seems like I hardly have any time recently. I just now am finding your responses. I'll try to respond in detail as best as I can. I also plan to do more pictures and possibly even videos.

2. I have sensitivity to light. There is problem with contrast. So like if your watching a movie and its a close up shot of a person, and the person is very dark but the background is very light, like in a bright desert. I can see all sorts of light bleed into the black bars top and bottom from the bright parts surrounding the guy. For me its all about Contrast, Color, and Proportions (size of light vs surrounding black, or in other words, further away vs closer up)/ Peripheral is bad. Extra sensitivity there.

3. When I was at my worst i swear my smell got more sensitive. I believe it is back to normal now, perhaps. But it runs in my family that people start losing their sense of smell. My dad lost his completely!

4. Yeah, I have a lot of confidence back and am doing ok. But i get "scrambled". I suppose I relate to it a bit.

5. Um. This is tough. I'm not sure. I can say I was working in a building that had a lot of construction going on at times. including yes... carpet stuff. Lots of smells and crap going on. hrmm interesting.	Lots of my issues came on slowely over time.

HEY! its funny you mentioned the low framerate thing! thats the next image I wanted to make!!!! When i drive on the highway at night.. if i look left and right like over at hte road signs, i see the car lights in front of me go []	[]	[]	[]	[]	[]	[] []
I have a little green light on my rear view mirror, and i can do that too.. low frame rate where I looke around and get that same effect trailing away from the direction i'm turning my head. and/or in the direction (if its strong enough light... due to light sensitivity and after images)

I need to update on the whole Trails thing. One person mentioned that they are "grey" for him.. and this is true for me. so even with the hand picture its actually really grey.. and its smooth... not usually low frame rate.	I don't know why its different for different things.

I'll fix that stuff up soon.

thanks for the response man!



Visual Dude said:


> Bluetank:
> 
> It just about blew my mind when I saw your moon picture, then the car radio and finally arm. Then on your profile you list "Effects Perception, Vision, Sound, Smell, Taste, sleep, memory, emotions, concentration and overall cognition/spatial reasoning". If you add some peripheral nerve problems (numbness) then you are talking about me.
> 
> I could blat on endlessly about the last 3 years of my life with this but will try to control myself a little.
> 
> I got some excellent diagnosis and have medication that helps -- not just manage but actually have some improvement even when discontinuing meds.
> 
> Would like to share notes. But first, are you interested?
> Do you have problems with contrast with your vision?
> Do you have increased sensitivity in you peripheral vision? (lower/outer areas in the direction of your moon blurs)
> Has you sense of smell decreased?
> Can learn and do things but have problems with making simple decisions? (and other executive function issues)
> Just before your symptoms started, were you in a building or meet in a room that has a strong carpet smell?
> 
> As for this moon picture - gabapentin and medications to increase dopamine mostly resolve this. Same with the arm movement problem - though I had less blur and more choppiness. Somewhat like akinstopia (motion blindness) but with a 'frame-rate' of about 1 second.
> 
> P.S. Great pictures (worth a thousand words) for communicating the problem


----------



## BlueTank

Visual Dude: I relate quite a bit to what you have. I don't have the motion thing too too much. It really depends on light/contrast. So like the other night I had it bad when out driving.	A lot of this stuff is hard to describe, and its also hard to mock up in photoshop. I hope to make some videos in 3d, but I need a place to put the video and link it here. I could start up some youtube thing or something under a new name or whatever. This stuff takes time and honestly my DP/DR has gotten bettter and better the more i've stayed away from all this stuff and just tried to get back to listening to new music and doing what I like to do.

But I still have a pretty big stake in this. My vision is not really getting better! I'm getting a bit better overall (i'm on meds, see my link below) but my vision just makes doctors shrug.

I have driving glasses for Astigmatism Myopia now.	They worked better before (moon pic no.2) but now they don't help as much, especially with the verticall doubling i now get.. Because things got worse for me. So i need new glasses ALREADY. The joke is that we don't have astigmatism myopia really. Read the text book definition of Astigmatism.........	I have it in both eyes almost equally. I think the problem is more brain related than physical eye related. Astigmatism is quite physcial and has to do with the bump thingy on the front of your eye.. etc.. etc...

Ok, so one thing I am having trouble with is that i had a LOT of things happen at once when this all came down on me. A LOT

you can probably find my story some where, and i'm in the middle of writing it out in detail for future doctors as I find people who specialize more in panic disorder and DP/DR.

First off goign into this I have to tell you I was SUPER healthy! VERY. No nothing. no smoking, drinking, drugs. Excercised a LOT and VERY happy. Then everything crashed fast.

But anyways. I thrashed around in a moshpit.... I was working in a building that was being reconstructed and worked on a lot - inhaling stuff while i worked.. fumes....	I got the Swine flu... I went through a LOT of stress from circumstantial factors... some of the stress was good, and some of it was bad. The bad stuff was happenstance. The Good stuff was by choice, but was big stuff. Good things can still cause stress. 
I was staying up late at night... I took a cough medicine called Hydrocodone (about 80% of one dose) and had a strange experience with that.

So tons of things happened at once. Like seriously in a week or 2 all this happened and I was really "in the hole" as you could say by the end of the few weeks.

I thought perhaps brain damage... I've had scans. I thought lack of blood flow. I dunno. Its crazy.

We'll talk more on this Visual Dude. And i'll have to get on to doing more images and posting them in here. I want this thread to be a big thread of visual representation of whats going on.

Edit: interesting: http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/3766-paint-fumes-the-culprit/


----------



## Visual

ludwig80,

*I am honestly terrified of prescription drugs* - I relate. Am an herbal nut and until recently avoided even an aspirin whole life. Wow what change of direction. Take important supplements and herbs but needed something harder. At least they have reduced how much Rx need to take.

*How long did your symptoms persist before you realized you could not work in the building anymore?* The first symptoms started days after exposure and progressed to a peak in about 3 weeks. Had no idea it was the building and did not enter the building for a few weeks anyway. But when entering it, some problems would start in about 12 minutes. Figured it was just an allergy and would go away. Finally one day, my vision did the motion split thing while in the foyer. Basically vision remained instant but there was a delay before perception - like two separate planes. Ended up walking with my hand in front of me so as not to bump into things (pillers, walls, tree limbs) even though I saw them clearly. Even grabbing a handrail was awkward.

*Also, did you ever find out exactly what the chemical toxin was?* No, the owners were afraid of lawsuit and would not comply with a doctor's request for testing. However, it seams to be related to synthetic rubber.

*Would you say your slow frame rate vision was constant continuous?* The rate is constant in a given circumstance. Could count it like a metronome. However it is reduced (shorter) in low lighting.

Also, it is reduced as body temperature increases. When a fever reaches 102 degree F, vision is normal. As the fever lowers, the motion delay starts and increases lock step with body temp. You'll love this one: Amplitude of nerve signals is reduced as body temperature increases. Velocity of nerve signals remains the same. For the first reason, people with Multiple Sclerosis will have more symptoms when exercising or bathing.

So you see both low lighting and higher temperature have this in common: Lower nerve pulse amplitude. Try a couple things: Compare frame-rate in a low but well lit area to a bright area. And if you're hot or have a fever, see if it changes. Please let me know anything you observe.

*First off, how are you doing now?* The motion problem is minimal now and seems more like a little loopyness. Had it not been 'split' before I would have no idea that the brain's processing time is affected. Contrast is much improved. Depth perception is exaggerated and directly affected by both lighting and amount of dopamine meds in the body. Putting on sunglasses while driving makes everything suddenly jump forward. Overall, with the B12 therapy as well, acuity is better than ever in my life. Looked at the moon last night and still see the side 'echoes' - something between the 2nd and 3rd image. The starbursts are reduced.

*I would love to hear your thoughts on nutrition as well.* This is a big topic!

Lets start with 'free radicals' and 'oxidative stress': Basically the body is a factory making thousands of different chemicals. This study is metabolic chemistry. Often when converting one molecule to another there will be a step (or more) in between. These are called intermediate metabolites. Here is where trouble comes in. Many intermediates are highly reactive and can damage anything they touch. The body needs to quickly eliminate these else there is damage (which may or may not be fixable).

'Inflammation': When there is injury, more metabolic activity is called for, which means more intermediates and possibility for damage.

Lots of general stuff like Vitamin C and all the Bs but for brain and vision take special note of:

Glutathione - Big time for liver function. Bit time for brain. This is the enzyme Tylenol can destroy causing permanent liver damage or failure. This is what gets depleted in the eyes leading to cataracts. This can also be involved in nerve damage. Glutathione is mainly made from Vitamin C, E and Selenium with cystine as the major catalyst.

NAC - is a step before Glutathione and less expensive. Basically glutathione in constantly being recycled and cystine is required for this. Hospitals will give intravenously in cases of Tylenol poisoning.

Fish oil - Don't over dose for more than two week otherwise it start to have the opposite affect.

Phosphatidyl Choline - Oil is an insulator thus the entire nervous system is mainly fat [so being called 'fat head' is technically true]. In the US and many countries this comes almost entirely from soy oil. Soy is in everything. A couple of possible problems here: 1) continuing to have the same thing in one's diet has the tendency to cause an inflammatory response. Now image the entire nervous system including the brain being entirely nourished by an irritant. Could end up malnourished (weakened) here. 2) Soy oil (and most oils) are extracted with a hexane process (even organic soy oil is processed with hexane to clarify it so it won't get rancid). Hexane is positively correlated with Parkinsonism.

Phosphatidyl Serine is another metabolic stage. Then GPC (Glycerophosphocholine) is the third and has proved the most important for me. [Take GPC in morning as it can interfere with sleep].

B12 - Only a small amount is needed to live and you usually get it from meat. However to rebuild nerve tissue you need a lot. Take B12 in morning be cause it is a metabolic stimulant and may interfere with sleep. B12 injection is typically dosed at 1000 mcg. Unfortunately the injectable has 700 mcg of aluminum - and who needs that. B12 is absorbed mainly in the mouth and poorly at that. For me 4000 - 5000 mcg of sublingual B12 feels about the same as a shot.

This is my nerve rebuilding protocol and has absolutely help visual acuity and peripheral neuropathy [A neurologist said that it would never repair because too much time had gone by - but he proved wrong.]: Take 5000 mcg B12, ~1000 mg GPC, 2000 mg MSM for 5 days. Then wait 3 weeks before repeating. You may wish to take some GPC and/or MSM in-between.

Diet - good honest food without additives, kind of like the 50's before Bisquick and the like were invented. I would further suggest that you try avoiding soy oil for a couple months and see if you feel different. This is a royal pain in the ass because in is almost impossible to get away from it or its derivatives.

Unfortunately this is difficult. Fast food is what people want and our society is now built arround. But slow food is what is needed. It is time consuming and socially awkward to do this. Otherwise, hope this info is helpful.

Good to hear from you too BlueTank. I got to go out of town a while so will read post more thoroughly when back.


----------



## Visual

*What do you mean by peripheral nerve problems exactly?* In my case there were specifics parts of the body that went numb, such as the finger tips on one hand. In the case of the lady who was injured in the same building, she has terrible pain in her muscles and takes oxycontin for it. As for my fingers, they repaired a year later with B12 therapy and as they were healing, they stung, tingled and hurt (which is characteristic of nerve repair - not depersonalization).

*sensitivity to light ... problem with contrast &#8230; Proportions* Exactly the same here! In a room in the evening, it was hard to see people's faces. [dopamine is very helpful for this]. For me, peripheral vision is actually painful. [Gabapentin has helped here.] Then there is peripheral 'shock' (for lack of better word). Little things startle. A falling leaf might trigger a response "Hit the dirt! A high speed baseball is about to hit you!".

If a baseball was really coming at someone, they would have an instinctive response of protection. This is good because you don't have time to think and reason about the situation. Now with a sluggish visual processing problem, the instinctive response gets kicked in (false alarm). It will take time to adjust to (and rewire for) the damage. You have to ignore it but it is tiring.

Try this and let me know: Close one eye. Wiggle a finger in different areas of your visual field. Note how it feels. Check the other eye next.

For me the lower, outer area is most irritating - causing my eyes to water. At times is feels like something between a tickle and having a tooth drilled. Each eye is a mirror reflection of the other. Starbursts are mirrored. The pattern matches the middle moon picture you supplied.

As for proportions, all sorts of strange things here. Like putting on my glasses so as to cut a roast and having the whole thing jump closer. Yet the rest of the brain is trying to compensate so I'm left wondering how to reach it because it is too far away now! You have to laugh at these things. One neurologist said the brain has to relearn what is normal.

*When I was at my worst i swear my smell got more sensitive. I believe it is back to normal now, perhaps. But it runs in my family that people start losing their sense of smell. My dad lost his completely!* My smell was always sensitive. It went way down at the same time as the numb fingers. It was actually a relief not to smell bad breath or cheap perfume. About a month after trying dopamine it started to return. I could even smell subtle things like if a piece of fruit is ripe. But some other things I couldn't smell such as skunk. Yes, for 2 years I couldn't smell skunk even while others around would complain how bad it was. Starting last month I started to smell skunk (a giant leap for mankind) so neural repair is continuing.

Loss (or reduction) of smell has been found as an early sign of Parkinson's appearing a few years before anything else. Does your family have anyone with neurological problems (besides smell)?

*working in a building that had a lot of construction going on at times. including yes... carpet stuff. Lots of smells and crap going on. hrmm interesting. Lots of my issues came on slowely over time. * Did the building have any recently poured concrete that then had carpet glued onto it?

*&#8230;low framerat thing &#8230;trailing&#8230;* I have not experienced trails. It is simply like a choppy video but with blurring between frames. There are accounts of people who see previous frames for a while which creates a trailing effect.

*&#8230;So i need new glasses ALREADY&#8230;* In the first 6 months my eyeglass prescription changed so much that the eye doctor thought I was diabetic - as that is the only known medical reason for the change. But blood sugar is exemplary.

*&#8230;was SUPER healthy!* I've always had fatigue and anxiety. Otherwise healthy. Ate healthy. Drank only a little. Never tried recreational drugs. Slept good.


----------



## ludwig80

Hey Visual Dude,

Sorry for late reply, I've been attempting to not dedicate too much time to this site. Between the Dp/Dr and the choppy vision I really have to try hard and keep myself busy. Seems to be futile though because for some reason I am stressed out from doing the most mundane and non-stressful things. It's frustrating and feels so foreign, as there's no reason to be stressed. I quit my job to get my head straight but I really need a job again, i'm just worried of messing myself up more.

Anyways

I still haven't heard back from my doctor about my abnormal EEG, hopefully I will hear soon, until then I won't be allowed any medication. Honestly I'm still not sure I want to take any, not in a hit or miss stlye at least. The fact that certain prescriptions have helped you gives me hope and direction.

I have a question though, It's been about 6 months now since things become choppy and my vision took a turn for the worst. I "think" it has gotten a little better (or maybe i just am getting more used to it..) Do you think it would be worth it to get on the medication? Is it possible for the brain to heal itself in your opinion?

I'm a runner and I paid attention to the changes when I'm done as I'm much hotter than normal. For me things less choppy but it is a lot like my mind can not switch from moving fast to moving slow. Things still seems to move by in a quicker fasion than they should be. I seem to be noticing this more often it seems though(maybe i'm just focusing on it now though) I don't really trust myself anymore, between the DP/DR and the other visual problems, I find myself wondering what was there before and what wasn't. Frustrating.

Great stuff on the nutrition notes. I've actually been on an anti-candida diet after this all started. I had a hunch that i had this problem due to alot of fatigue/skin problems so basically I eat meat, vegetables and very little carbs. Honestly, my energy levels are stabilized(no more serious bouts of fatigue out of no where) this way, that they never were to begin with- but I don't necessarily have more energy than I did, just constant. I've have always been a really skinny guy and lately i've been trying to eat a ton, about 3000 calories or more of just meat, veggies, and some other small stuff. No artificial things though, so I consume a lot more fat these days, mostly unsaturated fats though. I really do my best to make sure I minimize as much additives as possible, I eat very litte of it. I don't eat fast food and I've already been taking NAC & Vit C due to my gilberts syndrome. I'm going to look into the rest of what you listed to see if it'll help. Thanks again.

I have a few other vision abnormalities that I wanted to see if you could relate to. You mentioned your perpiheal vision... For me it is worse, motion is completely blurred and almost "unstable, jerky" if you will.

If i fixate my eyes on an object and then bend my neck left or right i see basically two frames, which is when i start and stop and if i go slow it a staggered set of images.

Did you ever notice that things seem to bounce more than normal when you are walking?

I often feel like I don't have the ability to take in a full object. This is difficult for me to explain, but it's like I HAVE to move my eyes all around to see an object, which just gives me a bunch of choppy images.

Did you notice that the angles of objects seem off as you move in relation to them? For instance if I walk into my pantry and look down at all the canned foods they all bend in slightly abnormal way. Or I walk by something looking at it the way I see the angle of it changes in abnormal way..

In general I'm frustrated because I feel my mind is quite weak and I'm becoming a bit OCD about staying away from chemicals/toxins, I don't trust in my ability to handle them. Which is difficult cause I'm DIY guy, I have two rental houses that I have to upkeep and I recently left a job at a Apartment complex. Which there is basically constant construction going on cause something is always breaking, moving in and out, and tons of chemicals are consonantly being using.

I can agree with the being startled easily thing as well. Although when I had Dp/Dr only a few years ago I had this pretty bad then too. So I don't know which to allocate my frustration to more for this ha! I can also relate to the glasses thing. It took me so long to adjust to the proportion, depth perception of things when I got my new glasses for my astigmatism. WHen the choppiness got to it's worse I could handle all of it so I just quite wearing the glasses. Things are blurry, jerky, and double sometimes but the glasses made things majorly weird for some reason.

Sorry for the long response, but please know that it is very much appreciated!

I hope you're doing good my friend. Looking forward to hearing from ya.

Take Care.


----------



## feministcat

Do any of you see auras? I see blue and yellow colors and sometimes pinks around people and objects and often wonder if it's related to dp..


----------



## Visual

ludwig80,

I know you're bugged by this all - any sane person would be. My advice is use dissociation to your advantage - learn to look at your symptoms as a puzzle. Turn off emotions except for the excitement of solving a mystery. Turn it into a part-time adventure. If you are able to learn the cause you can more comfortably navigate without worrying about messing yourself up.

A couple years ago I finally said to myself: Ok, this vision stuff seems here to stay. Let's have fun with it. I played with photography since being a kid. Later worked in the 'machine vision' industry - making computers see. So now this is an opportunity to explore how the brain sees by noting its malfunction. Perhaps peering into the even deeper mystery of consciousness - what is life itself.

Stress from even mundane, non-stressful things may not be strictly an anxiety disorder. If a person has some mild injury then part of the problem is the injury, not just how you think about it. The principal brain part associated with anxiety is the amygdala. And, lo-and-behold, the amygdala is considered an extension of the basal ganglia (the main focus in Parkinson's) and is also rich with dopaminergic neurons. And when dopamine runs low, neural circuits get stuck, &#8230;

*&#8230;abnormal EEG&#8230;* Doctors usually don't do much unless there is a 5-alarm fire. He _might_ suggest an anti-epileptic. Besides benzos, the mildest I know is Gabapentin. It is also an anti-anxiety. It is metabolized by the kidney not the liver which may be helpful for you with Gilberts.

*Is it possible for the brain to heal itself in your opinion?* Absolutely! The brain is very plastic and wants to work well. This is both a beauty and of great hope. It is possible (and probable) that you have some repair already.

*Do you think it would be worth it to get on the medication?* I do and posted a suggestion elsewhere as to how you might work with a doctor. http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/23991-just-gets-better/page__p__208920__fromsearch__1#entry208920 Wellbutrin isn't a favorite because it can take a few days the get used to. But it is the most likely one a doctor to prescribe. Requip is another if you have RLS.

At this point you might try some more of the natural stuff first. And herbs that boost dopamine: A couple to try are banana peels (organic) and catuaba bark. See if this affects things. I aggressively pursued alternative stuff over a year before trying medications. Acupuncture, herbs, B12, and above. It helped some things a lot but the motion improved only about 10% every six months. It was an herbalist up north that put me on to Parkinson's. I didn't believe her at first until reading up about it several weeks later.

Medication can be a diagnostic tool. Have you worked with a MD with this stuff? If you do try anything, try small doses, meds that have been around a while, and that don't require long adjustment or withdrawal times.

*I'm a runner&#8230; Frustrating* I noticed when taking a long hot bath that it was better but so slight that I didn't believe it for sure. Then one day with a fever &#8230; wow what a difference.

*&#8230;anti-candida diet&#8230;* Good idea. There are more neurotransmitters in the gut than the brain. Some really good Neurologists in Europe begin treating both neurological and mood disorders by treating the gut.

*"unstable, jerky"* I do have visual 'tremors' when fatigued or in the morning. It is just in parts of the peripheral field, usually in lower regions. It has not been responsive to any herbs or meds. When real tired or have been driving I'll see stationary objects moving (shifting size and position) like what happens when watching this video: Hypnotic Shifting

My frame problem is not as you describe - some of this sounds more like Bluetank's and he knows some neat videos with other DP people describing it. As for more difficulty when walking, yes. There is some difficulty taking in full views. More pronounced descriptions of this (and the shifting) may be found if you Google: Post-Trauma Vision Syndrome.

There can be bowing in the peripheral field - flat surfaces look convex like looking through a lens. (also with PTVS)

To me this is all evidence of the brain having difficulty putting vision together rather than some psychosis. One Neurologist told me that the problem is in the 'higher cortical functions' which is evident by the symptoms and my response to dopamine. And that the brain has to relearn what is normal.

You don't need to feel weak. It is natural to be concerned so as to avoid more problems. Try to work out a systematic approach. While there is a hypersensitivity to things now, if damage is related to a specific chemical it is likely to be limited to just it at this time. And in the end there will be something to make you less susceptible - sort of how MAO-B prevents damage from MPTP.

feministcat,

I'll see a faint rainbow at the perimeter of auras at night around bright lights. This is due to a weird oily film that develops on the surface of the eyes.

Hope this is helpful.


----------



## BusyBee

"unstable, jerky" I do have visual 'tremors' when fatigued or in the morning. It is just in parts of the peripheral field, usually in lower regions.

I totally get this. The pictures of the moon are great for describing what you mean.. funny thing is ive always had this! Well, since i was about 10 and diagnosed with a stigmatism (short sightedness) and loooong before the DP.. everything at a distance is 'doubled'.

Same with the snow.. i always get this. I thought it was normal. Its got worse, yes, but was always there.

Im struggling with mainly DP, but visually, im not liking the way that everything appears 'stark' and the light plays tricks. Its too bright, and when its dark i cant see a bloody thing i can hardly guess which way up i am.

I find the jerkyness has improved slightly with time. If im having abetter day with my DP, the scary carpet in the bank dosnt 'jump' at me so badly and the lights dont 'flicker' as much.

So theres hope.. but im definatly starting to wonder if this is caused by an outside chemical (rather than just my own bodies chemicals as a result of stress which is wat i originally thought)


----------



## BusyBee

Yeah i really do just think some peoples eyes are more sensitive. Remember when you were a kid and you did that thing with sparklers and wrote your name? by the time youd got to the end of writing it all of the letters or, 'trails' would remain.

As for after images, since i developed DP and migraine, i get them so bad. We have spot lights at work and if i look up and catch them, i can hardly see the person in front of me.. no more candle lit dinners for me! My homeopathist told me that the retina becomes more sensitive when one is suffering (has suffered just about to suffer) with migraine. I never asked her why this is.. migraines come in 'batches' for most people. Or happen when the person is feeling low. Ive heard people say, 'when i was migrainey..' It must be something to do with a chemical change that causes alot of these weird effects.


----------



## jaymeeliz

BlueTank said:


> hard to do. Kind of exaggerated. But yeah I had to include those damn warbly light effect you get around the edge of your vision. wtf with those.
> For me, depending on the lighting/mood and all that it just reminds me of some sort of horror film filter. Surreal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damn LED's and all sorts of lights started to get a doubled look and glare to them overnight. Its like I can't really get a good focus even if I try. The closer I get the sharper and better it gets. The further away I get the more wacked out it gets. can anybody relate to that? Like a pitch black room with an LED for your monitor or something or a bright clock with strange visual artifacts coming off of it..


OMG! I can relate with this! Are you also having trouble with the headlights of other vehicles when driving?
I also have this disturbance wherein the room seems like somebody sprayed powder all around.


----------



## ludwig80

Visual Dude said:


> ludwig80,
> 
> I know you're bugged by this all - any sane person would be. My advice is use dissociation to your advantage - learn to look at your symptoms as a puzzle. Turn off emotions except for the excitement of solving a mystery. Turn it into a part-time adventure. If you are able to learn the cause you can more comfortably navigate without worrying about messing yourself up.
> 
> A couple years ago I finally said to myself: Ok, this vision stuff seems here to stay. Let's have fun with it. I played with photography since being a kid. Later worked in the 'machine vision' industry - making computers see. So now this is an opportunity to explore how the brain sees by noting its malfunction. Perhaps peering into the even deeper mystery of consciousness - what is life itself.
> 
> Stress from even mundane, non-stressful things may not be strictly an anxiety disorder. If a person has some mild injury then part of the problem is the injury, not just how you think about it. The principal brain part associated with anxiety is the amygdala. And, lo-and-behold, the amygdala is considered an extension of the basal ganglia (the main focus in Parkinson's) and is also rich with dopaminergic neurons. And when dopamine runs low, neural circuits get stuck, &#8230;
> 
> *&#8230;abnormal EEG&#8230;* Doctors usually don't do much unless there is a 5-alarm fire. He _might_ suggest an anti-epileptic. Besides benzos, the mildest I know is Gabapentin. It is also an anti-anxiety. It is metabolized by the kidney not the liver which may be helpful for you with Gilberts.
> 
> *Is it possible for the brain to heal itself in your opinion?* Absolutely! The brain is very plastic and wants to work well. This is both a beauty and of great hope. It is possible (and probable) that you have some repair already.
> 
> *Do you think it would be worth it to get on the medication?* I do and posted a suggestion elsewhere as to how you might work with a doctor. http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/23991-just-gets-better/page__p__208920__fromsearch__1#entry208920 Wellbutrin isn't a favorite because it can take a few days the get used to. But it is the most likely one a doctor to prescribe. Requip is another if you have RLS.
> 
> At this point you might try some more of the natural stuff first. And herbs that boost dopamine: A couple to try are banana peels (organic) and catuaba bark. See if this affects things. I aggressively pursued alternative stuff over a year before trying medications. Acupuncture, herbs, B12, and above. It helped some things a lot but the motion improved only about 10% every six months. It was an herbalist up north that put me on to Parkinson's. I didn't believe her at first until reading up about it several weeks later.
> 
> Medication can be a diagnostic tool. Have you worked with a MD with this stuff? If you do try anything, try small doses, meds that have been around a while, and that don't require long adjustment or withdrawal times.
> 
> *I'm a runner&#8230; Frustrating* I noticed when taking a long hot bath that it was better but so slight that I didn't believe it for sure. Then one day with a fever &#8230; wow what a difference.
> 
> *&#8230;anti-candida diet&#8230;* Good idea. There are more neurotransmitters in the gut than the brain. Some really good Neurologists in Europe begin treating both neurological and mood disorders by treating the gut.
> 
> *"unstable, jerky"* I do have visual 'tremors' when fatigued or in the morning. It is just in parts of the peripheral field, usually in lower regions. It has not been responsive to any herbs or meds. When real tired or have been driving I'll see stationary objects moving (shifting size and position) like what happens when watching this video: Hypnotic Shifting
> 
> My frame problem is not as you describe - some of this sounds more like Bluetank's and he knows some neat videos with other DP people describing it. As for more difficulty when walking, yes. There is some difficulty taking in full views. More pronounced descriptions of this (and the shifting) may be found if you Google: Post-Trauma Vision Syndrome.
> 
> There can be bowing in the peripheral field - flat surfaces look convex like looking through a lens. (also with PTVS)
> 
> To me this is all evidence of the brain having difficulty putting vision together rather than some psychosis. One Neurologist told me that the problem is in the 'higher cortical functions' which is evident by the symptoms and my response to dopamine. And that the brain has to relearn what is normal.
> 
> You don't need to feel weak. It is natural to be concerned so as to avoid more problems. Try to work out a systematic approach. While there is a hypersensitivity to things now, if damage is related to a specific chemical it is likely to be limited to just it at this time. And in the end there will be something to make you less susceptible - sort of how MAO-B prevents damage from MPTP.
> 
> feministcat,
> 
> I'll see a faint rainbow at the perimeter of auras at night around bright lights. This is due to a weird oily film that develops on the surface of the eyes.
> 
> Hope this is helpful.


Man, you've got some great insight. Incredibly appreciated. I checked out you medicine recomendations as well as the natural stuff. I think I will continue with the natural stuff for the time being.

Well, I finally went to get a second opinion regarding my EEg. The second doctor said he said everything look relatively normal. (Even though he watched the whole thing in a matter of minutes before he saw me) How can this be when the first doctor was very sure something was going on in my temporal lobe area. He even made me sign a paper saying if I had do have a seizure I have to obey certain laws, and was suggesting I start on medication ASAP.. Very strange. So I haven't been working with "one" doctor on this but mostly because I keep being sent between neurologists, ophthalmologists etc.

Unfortunately, my family is supportive but doesn't really "understand" or necessarily believe that it's significant. Which I can understand as it sounds strange when I attempt to describe my problems. So I rarely bring up my issues, only at appointments. But this just adds to my frustration. This is one reason I'm really clinging to the EEg as it finally showed my folks there might be something REAL going on. When the second doctor said no case closed with EEg, I was back to square one.

Today I seem to be having more trouble than recently so I decided to stop in.

-I was wondering how long did you have the choppy vision before you found help? I wonder if there's any long term danger in not reaching for medications earlier, rather than later. I find it all too tempting because if it could help my vision as well my threshold for frustration/anger/anxiety- I would be increasingly inclined.

-Do you think we are more susceptible to Parkinson's? I assume so.

-I recently remembered the day before some symptops hit I had been working a ceiling dry wall repair where a bath tub had leaked and tons of mold was starting to come through. I wasn't prepared for the amount of dust, wood, drywall, and dried Spackle I'd be inadvertently breathing in. Then tons to drink that night= hangover and beginning symptoms + lots of stress= Significant increase in symptoms.

To feministcat: Yes, i get more of a grey aura around people, but alot of times i have a color changes in my peripheral. Especially pink sometimes blue.

To Jay: ya headlights are certainly bothersome due to afterimages.


----------



## Visual

ludwig80 said:


> Man, you've got some great insight. Incredibly appreciated. I checked out you medicine recomendations as well as the natural stuff. I think I will continue with the natural stuff for the time being.
> 
> Well, I finally went to get a second opinion regarding my EEg. The second doctor said he said everything look relatively normal. (Even though he watched the whole thing in a matter of minutes before he saw me) How can this be when the first doctor was very sure something was going on in my temporal lobe area. He even made me sign a paper saying if I had do have a seizure I have to obey certain laws, and was suggesting I start on medication ASAP.. Very strange. So I haven't been working with "one" doctor on this but mostly because I keep being sent between neurologists, ophthalmologists etc.
> 
> Unfortunately, my family is supportive but doesn't really "understand" or necessarily believe that it's significant. Which I can understand as it sounds strange when I attempt to describe my problems. So I rarely bring up my issues, only at appointments. But this just adds to my frustration. This is one reason I'm really clinging to the EEg as it finally showed my folks there might be something REAL going on. When the second doctor said no case closed with EEg, I was back to square one.
> 
> Today I seem to be having more trouble than recently so I decided to stop in.
> 
> -I was wondering how long did you have the choppy vision before you found help? I wonder if there's any long term danger in not reaching for medications earlier, rather than later. I find it all too tempting because if it could help my vision as well my threshold for frustration/anger/anxiety- I would be increasingly inclined.
> 
> -Do you think we are more susceptible to Parkinson's? I assume so.
> 
> -I recently remembered the day before some symptops hit I had been working a ceiling dry wall repair where a bath tub had leaked and tons of mold was starting to come through. I wasn't prepared for the amount of dust, wood, drywall, and dried Spackle I'd be inadvertently breathing in. Then tons to drink that night= hangover and beginning symptoms + lots of stress= Significant increase in symptoms.
> 
> To feministcat: Yes, i get more of a grey aura around people, but alot of times i have a color changes in my peripheral. Especially pink sometimes blue.
> 
> To Jay: ya headlights are certainly bothersome due to afterimages.


*Man, you've got some great insight. Incredibly appreciated.* Thank you for the encouragement (seems to help DP) and glad to help.

*I think I will continue with the natural stuff for the time being.* It may be just as well - I used natural stuff for over a year before trying medication (and have continued throughout). Perhaps this 'preparation' was why the medication has been so successful. At any rate, providing nutrition and encouragement to the brain can only be beneficial.

*regarding my Eeg&#8230; How can this be when the first doctor was very sure something was going on &#8230;* Brain dysfunction including epilepsy is highly variable. And 'minor' aberrations are subject to interpretation/opinion. And with weird stuff there is a lot of finger pointing as to who to see and what they should do.

It is interesting you had various opinions about your test. Early on I had an EEG but was told it is normal. Later at the peak of trouble I spoke with a doctor who was using a 2-lead EEG unit for biofeedback work. Told her about anxiety and vision problems. She had a booth at a trade show and hooked me up. Right away started saying I was an incredibly strong person because anyone else with these readings would be hanging from the ceiling screaming. And I better do something more about it (as if I could write my own script). There were seven other stations side by side with people hooked up the same way but my screen had about 10 times the amount of activity.

I told a couple neurologists when I got back home but neither seemed interested. And I was too sick to fight with them. This is when another doctor gave me a prescription for Gabapentin. In 24 hours I went from being curled in a ball in bed 20 hours a day (and losing 3 lbs a week from not being able to eat) to being able to get up a putter some. It had been recommended that I check into a hospital but since I'd been trying to get help for 2 years prior to get well and even prevent the worst from happening (which it did anyway) it seemed pointless.

*Unfortunately, my family is supportive but doesn't really "understand" or necessarily believe that it's significant. Which I can understand as it sounds strange when I attempt to describe my problems. So I rarely bring up my issues, only at appointments. But this just adds to my frustration &#8230;* Having validation from others is emotionally VERY helpful. Not getting it seems to feed DP. Certainly increases stress and isolation.

*Today I seem to be having more trouble than recently so I decided to stop in.* Any clues as to why?

*I was wondering how long did you have the choppy vision before you found help.* It was a full year (almost to the day) from when this started. All this time of acupuncture, B12, herbs, glutathione, etc with only 20% improvement of this symptom. Yet 3 hours after the first dose of Wellbutrin CR (75mg) it started improving - couldn't believe it. I became clear in a couple days that there was significant improvement in visual motion processing, contrast and spatial perception, night vision and muscle rigidity. Better than 50%.

Wellbutrin is a funny animal. It is both a dopamine reuptake inhibitor (increases dopamine) and yet reduces the production of dopamine (that is why it isn't addictive like cocaine). It isn't the easiest medication to take but at this low dose adjustment was just a few days. You can understand why my excitement for boosting dopamine. Though it seems that a lot on this forum are having problems with acetylcholine. This is curious because in some circuits, acetylcholine serves a parallel/complementary function with dopamine.

*I wonder if there's any long term danger in not reaching for medications earlier, rather than later. I find it all too tempting because if it could help my vision as well my threshold for frustration/anger/anxiety- I would be increasingly inclined.* I don't know. Neurologists always say the quicker the better but it was a long time in my case and was told not to entertain any hope of getting better. If you do try anything, just start really low and observe what happens the next couple days. Increase slowly making the same observations.

I was told that by my last neurologist that the closest thing he had seen to my case was arsenic poisoning but he was puzzled that I was improving [didn't tell him about all the alternative things I'd been doing because most docs freak out about natural stuff]. I often speculate as too why it works for me. There is obvious improvement even when discontinuing. Right now I only take 75mg Wellbutrin 1 or 2 times a week alternated by ½ Sinemet tablet 1 or 2 times a week. My strongest opinion is that by increasing dopamine it provided 'fuel' for cells to begin functioning and only then could they start repairing.

*Do you think we are more susceptible to Parkinson's? I assume so.* People without Parkinson's disease have a loss of about ½ percent of dopamine function per year. People with Parkinson's have been having a loss of about 1 percent per year. It take a loss of about 80% (yes that is a lot) of dopamine function before any symptoms occur. So the disease usually starts to show when people are in there 60s. I don't know if I have the disease or just the syndrome - time will tell.

With neuron loss from chemicals we are ahead in the game (negatively so). When I see people on this forum with similar visual problem I naturally get excited to encourage them to check it out. Since 1-2% of the population get Parkinson's disease (let alone Parkinsonism) it would seem that of the 18,178 members on this forum at least 300 could benefit from dopamine agonists. Given that many here have damage from drugs (and prolonged stress _IS_ damaging too) the number is probably a lot higher.

*I recently remembered the day before some symptops hit I had been working a ceiling dry wall repair where a bath tub had leaked and tons of mold was starting to come through. I wasn't prepared for the amount of dust, wood, drywall, and dried Spackle I'd be inadvertently breathing in. Then tons to drink that night= hangover and beginning symptoms + lots of stress= Significant increase in symptoms.* Mold is known to be natoriously toxic. Perhaps lead (if an old ceiling). Add stress and an overloaded liver you get increased damage from neurotoxicity.

Hope that you get better from this setback soon.


----------



## ludwig80

Visual Dude said:


> *Man, you've got some great insight. Incredibly appreciated.* Thank you for the encouragement (seems to help DP) and glad to help.
> 
> *I think I will continue with the natural stuff for the time being.* It may be just as well - I used natural stuff for over a year before trying medication (and have continued throughout). Perhaps this 'preparation' was why the medication has been so successful. At any rate, providing nutrition and encouragement to the brain can only be beneficial.
> 
> *regarding my Eeg&#8230; How can this be when the first doctor was very sure something was going on &#8230;* Brain dysfunction including epilepsy is highly variable. And 'minor' aberrations are subject to interpretation/opinion. And with weird stuff there is a lot of finger pointing as to who to see and what they should do.
> 
> It is interesting you had various opinions about your test. Early on I had an EEG but was told it is normal. Later at the peak of trouble I spoke with a doctor who was using a 2-lead EEG unit for biofeedback work. Told her about anxiety and vision problems. She had a booth at a trade show and hooked me up. Right away started saying I was an incredibly strong person because anyone else with these readings would be hanging from the ceiling screaming. And I better do something more about it (as if I could write my own script). There were seven other stations side by side with people hooked up the same way but my screen had about 10 times the amount of activity.
> 
> I told a couple neurologists when I got back home but neither seemed interested. And I was too sick to fight with them. This is when another doctor gave me a prescription for Gabapentin. In 24 hours I went from being curled in a ball in bed 20 hours a day (and losing 3 lbs a week from not being able to eat) to being able to get up a putter some. It had been recommended that I check into a hospital but since I'd been trying to get help for 2 years prior to get well and even prevent the worst from happening (which it did anyway) it seemed pointless.
> 
> *Unfortunately, my family is supportive but doesn't really "understand" or necessarily believe that it's significant. Which I can understand as it sounds strange when I attempt to describe my problems. So I rarely bring up my issues, only at appointments. But this just adds to my frustration &#8230;* Having validation from others is emotionally VERY helpful. Not getting it seems to feed DP. Certainly increases stress and isolation.
> 
> *Today I seem to be having more trouble than recently so I decided to stop in.* Any clues as to why?
> 
> *I was wondering how long did you have the choppy vision before you found help.* It was a full year (almost to the day) from when this started. All this time of acupuncture, B12, herbs, glutathione, etc with only 20% improvement of this symptom. Yet 3 hours after the first dose of Wellbutrin CR (75mg) it started improving - couldn't believe it. I became clear in a couple days that there was significant improvement in visual motion processing, contrast and spatial perception, night vision and muscle rigidity. Better than 50%.
> 
> Wellbutrin is a funny animal. It is both a dopamine reuptake inhibitor (increases dopamine) and yet reduces the production of dopamine (that is why it isn't addictive like cocaine). It isn't the easiest medication to take but at this low dose adjustment was just a few days. You can understand why my excitement for boosting dopamine. Though it seems that a lot on this forum are having problems with acetylcholine. This is curious because in some circuits, acetylcholine serves a parallel/complementary function with dopamine.
> 
> *I wonder if there's any long term danger in not reaching for medications earlier, rather than later. I find it all too tempting because if it could help my vision as well my threshold for frustration/anger/anxiety- I would be increasingly inclined.* I don't know. Neurologists always say the quicker the better but it was a long time in my case and was told not to entertain any hope of getting better. If you do try anything, just start really low and observe what happens the next couple days. Increase slowly making the same observations.
> 
> I was told that by my last neurologist that the closest thing he had seen to my case was arsenic poisoning but he was puzzled that I was improving [didn't tell him about all the alternative things I'd been doing because most docs freak out about natural stuff]. I often speculate as too why it works for me. There is obvious improvement even when discontinuing. Right now I only take 75mg Wellbutrin 1 or 2 times a week alternated by ½ Sinemet tablet 1 or 2 times a week. My strongest opinion is that by increasing dopamine it provided 'fuel' for cells to begin functioning and only then could they start repairing.
> 
> *Do you think we are more susceptible to Parkinson's? I assume so.* People without Parkinson's disease have a loss of about ½ percent of dopamine function per year. People with Parkinson's have been having a loss of about 1 percent per year. It take a loss of about 80% (yes that is a lot) of dopamine function before any symptoms occur. So the disease usually starts to show when people are in there 60s. I don't know if I have the disease or just the syndrome - time will tell.
> 
> With neuron loss from chemicals we are ahead in the game (negatively so). When I see people on this forum with similar visual problem I naturally get excited to encourage them to check it out. Since 1-2% of the population get Parkinson's disease (let alone Parkinsonism) it would seem that of the 18,178 members on this forum at least 300 could benefit from dopamine agonists. Given that many here have damage from drugs (and prolonged stress _IS_ damaging too) the number is probably a lot higher.
> 
> *I recently remembered the day before some symptops hit I had been working a ceiling dry wall repair where a bath tub had leaked and tons of mold was starting to come through. I wasn't prepared for the amount of dust, wood, drywall, and dried Spackle I'd be inadvertently breathing in. Then tons to drink that night= hangover and beginning symptoms + lots of stress= Significant increase in symptoms.* Mold is known to be natoriously toxic. Perhaps lead (if an old ceiling). Add stress and an overloaded liver you get increased damage from neurotoxicity.
> 
> Hope that you get better from this setback soon.


*
Later at the peak of trouble I spoke with a doctor who was using a 2-lead EEG unit for biofeedback work.* Interesting story about your EEG, I'm curious as to what the difference is in the EEG they were running where you were. I wouldn't doubt this at all. I believe the second doctor I saw had zero interest in the issue and as said in the first meeting before he saw it, was pretty much already inclined to presume there was nothing on the EEG, due to my lack of "textbook" symptoms."

*Yet 3 hours after the first dose of Wellbutrin CR (75mg) it started improving - couldn't believe it. * Reading this puts such a huge smile on my face ha. Just cause I can't even fathom the relief you must have felt. Plus, it seems feels so unlikely that a simple pill could ever aid with the problem.

*
In 24 hours I went from being curled in a ball in bed 20 hours a day (and losing 3 lbs a week from not being able to eat)* I can certainly relate to this. When things get worse from me initially I had zero appetite ever. Thanks to anxiety. All i wanted to do was sit in my room 20 hours a day but my folks never gave me that option. I eat like a damn horse again now despite it all. My whole life I ate so damn healthy cause my folks were always watching their weights. I never cooked with oils, ate only lean cuts of meats, vegetable everynight, rarely fast food, never more than a coke a day(I haven't had coke forever, same with fast food still)- Now I've completely changed my diets and use tons of olive oil, fatty avocados, dark meats, nuts, seeds, still tons of vegetables. But no carbs and sugar besides some beans. I guess I feel like maybe since the brains mostly fatty based, It could help a bit. Plus, I'm tired of being called too skinny, there were times when people would seriously think I was very ill because how small I was. The anxiety mixed with my early eating habits made it impossible to put on or even sustain weight at my worst.

*
I was wondering how long did you have the choppy vision before you found help.* It was a full year (almost to the day) from when this started. 
[/b] As said before, you are in fact an unbelievably strong person. A year is a long long time with this.

*
With neuron loss from chemicals we are ahead in the game (negatively so).*
Figures, I suppose. I'm only 22, way to far ahead of the game! I've been doing a lot of reading into Parkinson's per our conversations. Interesting things going on in the medical community regarding treatments. Perhaps if we're lucky(as well millions others) they will find something sustainable. My sister is a pharmaceutical sales person, I can't remember what the drug name was, but it was to treat Parkinson's.

*
If you do try anything, just start really low and observe what happens the next couple days. Increase slowly making the same observations.* I'm tempted to go back to my first doctor and work with him. My folks will probably be hesitant so we will see. His idea was Keppra to being, so I'm going to research to see it's effect on Dopamine. I will also show him selected notes from our conversations to see if I can persuade one way or another.

What scared me the most at first was an article I read about a lady with this who had a pretty serious stroke. She was left with similar symptoms but on a much more extreme level.

I've done tons of searching, interestingly enough, I read of another person a long time ago on this board talk about taking the antibiotic Cipro and having these motion problems for about two weeks until she stopped taking them for a while. 4 years ago when my problems first started I had just gotten off a 2 weeks course of the cipro for a really bad case of staph infection. I was fine for a little while and then my vision went bad. I have always suspected that in same way that Cipro had something to do with it. It's notorious for causing all kinds of problems.

There was a video on youtube kind of depicitng the motion problem. Under the the video in the comments section someone had mentioned that he had this problem for 5 years afte ra head injury. He said he was starting to get better after taking some work out supplements..I can't remember the name off the top of my head though.

I also read off a epilepsy board that when that person was having a seizure it was like seeing the world in frames. It was told from that persons mother so there was not much detail.

Anyways, all the causes seem quite different. I can only suppose they are all interconnected somehow. Perhaps Dopamine is the answer.. I'm very motivated to try at this point. I'm growing quite frustrated. I can be thankful that my anxiety has curved since the beginng which is undoubtedly helpful. In the end, we're very fortunate for what we have regardless, we can't forget this.

How's the guitar going? Learn smoke on the water yet? haha


----------



## Visual

ludwig80 said:


> *
> Later at the peak of trouble I spoke with a doctor who was using a 2-lead EEG unit for biofeedback work.* Interesting story about your EEG, I'm curious as to what the difference is in the EEG they were running where you were. I wouldn't doubt this at all. I believe the second doctor I saw had zero interest in the issue and as said in the first meeting before he saw it, was pretty much already inclined to presume there was nothing on the EEG, due to my lack of "textbook" symptoms."
> 
> *Yet 3 hours after the first dose of Wellbutrin CR (75mg) it started improving - couldn't believe it. * Reading this puts such a huge smile on my face ha. Just cause I can't even fathom the relief you must have felt. Plus, it seems feels so unlikely that a simple pill could ever aid with the problem.
> 
> *
> In 24 hours I went from being curled in a ball in bed 20 hours a day (and losing 3 lbs a week from not being able to eat)* I can certainly relate to this. When things get worse from me initially I had zero appetite ever. Thanks to anxiety. All i wanted to do was sit in my room 20 hours a day but my folks never gave me that option. I eat like a damn horse again now despite it all. My whole life I ate so damn healthy cause my folks were always watching their weights. I never cooked with oils, ate only lean cuts of meats, vegetable everynight, rarely fast food, never more than a coke a day(I haven't had coke forever, same with fast food still)- Now I've completely changed my diets and use tons of olive oil, fatty avocados, dark meats, nuts, seeds, still tons of vegetables. But no carbs and sugar besides some beans. I guess I feel like maybe since the brains mostly fatty based, It could help a bit. Plus, I'm tired of being called too skinny, there were times when people would seriously think I was very ill because how small I was. The anxiety mixed with my early eating habits made it impossible to put on or even sustain weight at my worst.
> 
> *
> I was wondering how long did you have the choppy vision before you found help.* It was a full year (almost to the day) from when this started.
> [/b] As said before, you are in fact an unbelievably strong person. A year is a long long time with this.
> 
> *
> With neuron loss from chemicals we are ahead in the game (negatively so).*
> Figures, I suppose. I'm only 22, way to far ahead of the game! I've been doing a lot of reading into Parkinson's per our conversations. Interesting things going on in the medical community regarding treatments. Perhaps if we're lucky(as well millions others) they will find something sustainable. My sister is a pharmaceutical sales person, I can't remember what the drug name was, but it was to treat Parkinson's.
> 
> *
> If you do try anything, just start really low and observe what happens the next couple days. Increase slowly making the same observations.* I'm tempted to go back to my first doctor and work with him. My folks will probably be hesitant so we will see. His idea was Keppra to being, so I'm going to research to see it's effect on Dopamine. I will also show him selected notes from our conversations to see if I can persuade one way or another.
> 
> What scared me the most at first was an article I read about a lady with this who had a pretty serious stroke. She was left with similar symptoms but on a much more extreme level.
> 
> I've done tons of searching, interestingly enough, I read of another person a long time ago on this board talk about taking the antibiotic Cipro and having these motion problems for about two weeks until she stopped taking them for a while. 4 years ago when my problems first started I had just gotten off a 2 weeks course of the cipro for a really bad case of staph infection. I was fine for a little while and then my vision went bad. I have always suspected that in same way that Cipro had something to do with it. It's notorious for causing all kinds of problems.
> 
> There was a video on youtube kind of depicitng the motion problem. Under the the video in the comments section someone had mentioned that he had this problem for 5 years afte ra head injury. He said he was starting to get better after taking some work out supplements..I can't remember the name off the top of my head though.
> 
> I also read off a epilepsy board that when that person was having a seizure it was like seeing the world in frames. It was told from that persons mother so there was not much detail.
> 
> Anyways, all the causes seem quite different. I can only suppose they are all interconnected somehow. Perhaps Dopamine is the answer.. I'm very motivated to try at this point. I'm growing quite frustrated. I can be thankful that my anxiety has curved since the beginng which is undoubtedly helpful. In the end, we're very fortunate for what we have regardless, we can't forget this.
> 
> How's the guitar going? Learn smoke on the water yet? haha


*what the difference is in the EEG they were running where you were* I had a 'full' EGG early on and they are used for diagnosis of brain troubles. 2-lead EEGs are usually for biofeedback systems. The doctor that used this offered to run a full one on me when visiting my area the coming summer. But since she wasn't in my local HMO and would cost $1500, I declined.

*I can't even fathom the relief you must have felt* I was surprised because I thought it too weak a medication to take. I only tried it because it was the only thing doctors would give me. My focus was mainly the contrast perception and elevated prolactin levels and had been hoping to try Dostinex (D2 agonist for D2 problems seemed logical). The motion delay improvement was even more surprising (startling) since there is no mention of anything remotely like it with Parkinson's Disease or 'ism'.

I've read references (but nothing detailed) about visual problems associated with acetylcholine. Have you tried DMEA? It is supposed to help increase acetylcholine.

*I'm tired of being called too skinny* Don't worry about this. Are you a high energy, fidgety type of person?

*My sister is a pharmaceutical sales person* She might have so good information. Have you talked with her or does she not take it too seriously?

*Keppra* Not familiar with it but on looking it up there are a some good things to say. First, like gabapentin, it is eliminated by kidney function (most drugs are processed by liver) so it there should be no stress on the liver. Second, its been around a couple decades so the real effects/side-effects should be well known. Third (and most important), since your doc is thinking about an anti-epileptic (instead of anti-psychotic) he is moving the direction your interested in. Even without epilepsy, these drugs are used for brain injury. And with an EEG that is in question, this is the most logical place to start.

When working with doctors it will take time and trial and error.

*What scared me the most at first was an article I read about a lady with this who had a pretty serious stroke* Yes, a bilateral (rare) stroke in the V5 region of the back of the brain - Akinetopsia (very rare). It is important to remember that a diagnosis doesn't make a disease, it merely tries to classify it and target treatments that are most likely to help. It can be validating or terrifying or both but really it should be viewed as positive step toward solution.

You might enjoy this -- the anti-depressant Nefazodone has been known to produce "'comet-like' trail of short-lived images persist behind the moving object" http://www.nature.com/eye/journal/v17/n9/full/6700551a.html and Link.

*my problems first started I had just gotten off a 2 weeks course of the cipro* Wow. Could have been Cipro or could have been staph. Again the above Nefazodone links are interesting. I searched 'Cipro' on the forum and it has definitely been implicated.

*Anyways, all the causes seem quite different. I can only suppose they are all interconnected somehow. Perhaps Dopamine is the answer&#8230;* It is clear that everyone is different. Dopamine has been a major factor for me but there are others yet to discover. Gabapentin has been helpful for too. And with both, I don't need nearly as much as I used to.

*How's the guitar going? Learn smoke on the water yet? haha* I learn slowly - been notoriously uncoordinated my whole life. But enjoying myself with it. Started with melodies instead of chords (there would have been no hope for progress otherwise). The pinky finger is such a pain to control!


----------



## ludwig80

Hey Visual Dude,

Been a while, thought I would check in to the forums. How are things lately? Hopefully continuing to improve. And do not fret to much about the pinky finger for guitar, in time, it will obey. I can't stress repetition enough, also, do not wait to begin playing amongst other musicians, the earlier the better. There's much to be gained from these experiences.

Same for me lately, I finally meet with my final neuro-opthamologist. His diagnosis for poor Frame Rate Vision and everything else was either, Migraine or Seizure related. Therefore, he recommended I start taking Keppra(as did my last neurologist). So it's been roughly 8 months with only slight improvement, and I think I may be succumbing to medication. I've handled dp/dr/hppd for roughly 4 years on and off without medication so I hate to think of this as a step back. I can only hope for positive results in the right direction. I'll likely be starting it in a few weeks.

About Nefazodone, That's strange, I remember reading a on a forum about Clomid or something(I can't remember exactly)that body builder were taking that made similar issues. They were resolved at discontinuation.

I happened to remember that the other guy who said after 5 years with the FPS vision issue, he believed he was starting to get better after taking a Body Building supplement known as Animal Pak. So I did some research upon its ingredients. - One being:

"Mucuna pruriens is then added for its ability to promote deep sleep by elevating the production of l-dopa, an amino acid that converts into dopamine. Dopamine is an essential component of our body and it's required for proper functioning of the brain. The blood carries dopamine into the brain, where it naturally increases HGH production from the pituitary gland, important for recovery and well being. What Animal PM works to do is facilitate a calming state of being prior to bed so that you can more easily fall asleep and stay in deep sleep."

Perhaps, this is the reason it was helping him as well.

Anything new and interesting that you've happened to run across?


----------



## Visual

Yes it has been a while. Had wondered if you had tried any meds yet. As for the pinky, it is slighter bettered behaived (cog-wheels a lot) but was encouraged to hear Michael J Fox still plays his guitar (very advanced PD). As for a band, I have a friend to seems to like what I am coming up with so down the road perhaps&#8230;

*&#8230;Clomid&#8230;that body builder were taking*

At first it seems almost amusing that a guy would take something to "induce ovulation (egg production)" for body building. Must do something with testosterone, etc.

*I finally meet with my final neuro-opthamologist. His diagnosis for poor Frame Rate Vision and everything else was either, Migraine or Seizure related. Therefore, he recommended I start taking Keppra(as did my last neurologist).*

You don't need to view trying meds as a failure. Maybe my experience is unusual, even if I stop all meds, vision has permanently improved. So the meds promoted healing - an ideal scenario. This should be possible for you and many on this forum.

*So it's been roughly 8 months with only slight improvement, and I think I may be succumbing to medication. I've handled dp/dr/hppd for roughly 4 years on and off without medication so I hate to think of this as a step back. I can only hope for positive results in the right direction. I'll likely be starting it in a few weeks.*

Let us know how it goes.

*Anything new and interesting that you've happened to run across?*

I've realized that while Parkinsonism explains how I got injured and how to resolve some of it. Something else explains the brain injury (malfunction) with amazing exactness. I suggest you do some reading about the ambient visual system - it should blow your socks off (some more).

I would encourage you learn this and present it to your neurologist - most certainly he'll will stand by Keppra (or some other anti-seizure) but this will clarify that it isn't just a Migraine or Seizure related.

Some real good discussions about this is from an organization of Neuro Ophthalmologists. Please read:

http://www.neuroskills.com/tbi/vision1.shtml
http://www.neuroskills.com/tbi/vision2.shtml
http://www.neuroskills.com/tbi/vision3.shtml

You can skip "Visual Midline Shift Syndrome" though it is interesting reading as well. Some of this is a bit technical but observe the symptoms, the function of the two visual systems and the results of their malfunctions. Also, these articles don't actually offer a cure but in our cases it is so mild it is likely with anti-seizure meds and tweaking with a few others such as dopamine or acetylcholine, we will get good results.

A few choice excerpts:

"The mild closed head trauma patient is the most frequently under-diagnosed category of traumatic brain injury with secondary injury. Generally, the diagnostic community relies upon loss of consciousness, length of coma, radiological imaging and on occasion neuro-psychological evaluation in the assessment of traumatic brain injury. The noncomatose patient with a negative CT or MRI scan is the classical case. Their symptoms are frequently dismissed as both exaggerated and psychosomatic in origin. This is often disastrous for a mild closed head injury patient and often results in denial of appropriate and necessary rehabilitative services"

"Any disturbance in precision visual sensory motor integration or sensory ambient-focal integration results in decompensation and a breakdown of the visual processing systems, resulting in multiple dysfunctions."

"Interference &#8230; can also affect higher cognitive functioning. The focal process is very much related to higher perceptual and cognitive function. However, the focal process cannot function properly unless it is grounded by the ambient visual system. In turn, this loss of grounding following PTVS will cause a *slowing of responses* in general, and interference with higher perceptual cognitive function."

"Recent advances in research enabling clinicians to gain a better understanding of vision as a process have uncovered more than one visual processing system. The ambient visual process is essentially a silent process. We cannot think in this process. Instead we somehow develop a level of *feel*ing through this process that establishes one's organization of space for balance, movement, and coordination, while also providing a spatial net by which the higher focal process delivers information about detail and identification."

Here is the Parkinsonism connection (dopamine/acetylcholine):

"The ambient process lets you know where you are in space and provides general information needed for balance, movement, coordination, and posture. Neurologically, nerve fibers from the peripheral retina that are part of the ambient visual process provide axons that are delivered to a level of midbrain where they become part of the sensory-motor feedback loop. The importance of this system is that it is a less sensorially involved and more motoric in function. It must match information with kinesthetic, proprioceptive, vestibular, and even tactile systems for the purpose of orienting and acting as a master organizer of these other processes. Once this is accomplished, a feed-forward mechanism enables this information to be directed to higher cortical areas, including the occipital cortex, as well as 99% of the cortex."

Other articles show connection to the amygdala. This is the instant fight/flight response that occurs even before you know for sure what you are looking at. The implications of this for people suffering DR with visual problems is obvious. And how fear can be a symptom, not simply a cause.

Note some stuff here: http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/25596-feeling-pretty-ick/page__p__218804__fromsearch__1#entry218804

So yes, there is some *interesting* stuff I'm looking at.

Hope this is helpful and that you find improvement. Otherwise you sound happy and that is the most important thing.


----------



## ludwig80

Didn't know that about Mr. Fox, actually, I didn't know he really played guitar. That's fantastic though. He does a mean solo in Back to the Future.

Keppra is now available, I just need to convince myself to take it. I will likely by the end of the week. Read to many bad reaction stories, though I'm aware that every med has some of those.. Thank you for the encouragement though. I've been floating around this board for years, it's nice to see people like you who seem to have a level head and an educated responses.. despite all the turmoil this site can host, comes with the territory.

Anyways, I went through the links you sent and definitely seem interesting stuff..I can't lie and say I understand alot of it, but I think I took a way a good general idea.

I wondering if you had issues with reading? As in scanning along line of text, jumping from word to word..? I'm getting close to graduating soon (hopefully) and the vision is reeking havoc.



Visual Dude said:


> Otherwise you sound happy and that is the most important thing.


Happy is a relative statement for me these days. I'm happy to be alive and I'm well aware I'm fortunate for everything I have. Can't forget this, ever. But I can't help be hampered down by negative emotions like anger/depression all the time- these are unwanted though. I'm likely where you were 7 months in. I just try to make it day by day and keep in mind, i'm very fortunate regardless of everything.

Hope you're doing well.

Any new good news, feel free to toss my way.


----------



## Visual

ludwig80 said:


> Didn't know that about Mr. Fox, actually, I didn't know he really played guitar. That's fantastic though. He does a mean solo in Back to the Future.
> 
> Keppra is now available, I just need to convince myself to take it. I will likely by the end of the week. Read to many bad reaction stories, though I'm aware that every med has some of those.. Thank you for the encouragement though. I've been floating around this board for years, it's nice to see people like you who seem to have a level head and an educated responses.. despite all the turmoil this site can host, comes with the territory.
> 
> Anyways, I went through the links you sent and definitely seem interesting stuff..I can't lie and say I understand alot of it, but I think I took a way a good general idea.
> 
> I wondering if you had issues with reading? As in scanning along line of text, jumping from word to word..? I'm getting close to graduating soon (hopefully) and the vision is reeking havoc.
> 
> Happy is a relative statement for me these days. I'm happy to be alive and I'm well aware I'm fortunate for everything I have. Can't forget this, ever. But I can't help be hampered down by negative emotions like anger/depression all the time- these are unwanted though. I'm likely where you were 7 months in. I just try to make it day by day and keep in mind, i'm very fortunate regardless of everything.
> 
> Hope you're doing well.
> 
> Any new good news, feel free to toss my way.


Good to hear for you again.

*Hope you're doing well.*

I guess I am doing better. Progress is slower now and tends to plateau. So it is easy to miss. But looking back over the last few weeks seems good.

*Mr. Fox &#8230; does a mean solo in Back to the Future.*

Wonder if it was dubbed in or if he really did it?









*Keppra is now available, I just need to convince myself to take it. &#8230; Read to many bad reaction stories, though I'm aware that every med has some of those.*

Not familiar with Keppra or it's dosing. The key is to start low and note the effects for a week or until you feel comfortable to try more. They seem to encourage taking vitamin B6 to help reduce possible side effect.

B6 is a major player throughout the body for metabolic processes - so it is good to take. You may have seen P5P in health stores. It is the 'activated' version of B6. Many things need to be converted to an active state to be used (phosphorylated, methylated, sulfated,&#8230. Anyway, either would be good to add.

In the end, few like to take meds and most have side effects. The better the match, the fewer the side effects. Also, finding the minimum effective dosage.

*I can't lie and say I understand alot of it, but I think I took a way a good general idea*

It takes a lot of time to digest - still doing so. Also found a doctor nearby that specializes in this stuff. Need a few $$$ because he is not on my insurance but hope to see him soon. (though doubt wearing prisms will be needed - perhaps a new fashion statement







)

*I wondering if you had issues with reading? As in scanning along line of text, jumping from word to word..? I'm getting close to graduating soon (hopefully) and the vision is reeking havoc.*

Normally my reading is good. You may have notice in the earlier links that reading problems follow with the breakdown of ambient visual processing. This reminds me of an interesting experience.

I was reading a poster when vision shifted into low-contrast state, so knew it was past time to take more dopamine (Sinemet). Curiously, got stuck on each word while trying to read. Had to force myself to move from word to word - it was actually difficult.

Then in just under an hour, the med started working and the contrast corrected. Reading became difficult for the opposite reason - would zoom past words. Had to slow down. So basically, the brain got stuck shifting focus. Tried to compensate. Then the dopamine levels rose and the brain got unstuck. But was still trying to compensate and needed to adjust back.

This, other experiences, and reading, have taught me that many dopaminergic circuits are regulatory in function. And when the dopamine levels drop too low, circuits get stuck - like a volume knob on the radio being physically stuck so you can't adjust the sound level.

So instead of the simple idea of neurotransmitters being either sedative or stimulating, they are involve in complex self-regulating systems. This is true for emotional control as well as perceptive processes.

*Happy is a relative statement for me these days. I'm happy to be alive and I'm well aware I'm fortunate for everything I have. Can't forget this, ever. But I can't help be hampered down by negative emotions like anger/depression all the time- these are unwanted though. I'm likely where you were 7 months in. I just try to make it day by day and keep in mind, i'm very fortunate regardless of everything.*

None of this stuff is easy or trivial. It takes a lot to get used to it while at the same time working to find solutions. It certainly cannot just be ignored anymore that one can ignore a broken leg. Appreciation for life and what good things you do have is vital for gaining/holding balance. Sorry about the anger/depression struggle.

There is definitely a solution - it just takes time and trial-and-error. Perhaps dopamine will help. Perhaps not. You now have Keppra to try and give feedback to your doctor. It will take time working with him but he may be able to help you as you work with him.

I will keep posting positive things







and possibilities to consider







. Take care.


----------



## Guest

*Holy Moses, this is a long thread. Every time I read about these visual symptoms I am stumped. And I am one person who has never taken ANY rec drug in my life. I have had alcohol over the years, never been drunk. I have never smoked a cigarette, had a joint, etc.*

*The only drugs I've ever had in my system were Rx. I've also had surgery, under anesthesia, a number of times in my life. And I include in Rx things like antibiotics, etc., regular medications, not just psychiatric.*

BUT, this is one thing I cannot connect with on any level. I mean I can understand what is happening and it seems horrible. The photo is an excellent way to depict it, but as an individual with chronic DP/DR since childhood essentially, 24/7 since my 20s give or take (KNOWING what clear reality is as that would come and go in childhood), I have never had these visual experiences.

*I also know without a doubt that I have chronic DP/DR, no doubt. And I have had a formal diagnosis since 1975. I take Rx medication, and it helps some.*

I always wonder, if for some people, even ONE hit of something hallucinogenic can do this.
I have no trails, halos, static, etc.
I have floaters which are normal and I'm very near-sighted.

I'll have to take the time to read through this whole thing ... sorry, LOOOOOOOONG thread.


----------



## Fluke93

Dreamer* said:


> *Holy Moses, this is a long thread. Every time I read about these visual symptoms I am stumped. And I am one person who has never taken ANY rec drug in my life. I have had alcohol over the years, never been drunk. I have never smoked a cigarette, had a joint, etc.*
> 
> *The only drugs I've ever had in my system were Rx. I've also had surgery, under anesthesia, a number of times in my life. And I include in Rx things like antibiotics, etc., regular medications, not just psychiatric.*
> 
> BUT, this is one thing I cannot connect with on any level. I mean I can understand what is happening and it seems horrible. The photo is an excellent way to depict it, but as an individual with chronic DP/DR since childhood essentially, 24/7 since my 20s give or take (KNOWING what clear reality is as that would come and go in childhood), I have never had these visual experiences.
> 
> *I also know without a doubt that I have chronic DP/DR, no doubt. And I have had a formal diagnosis since 1975. I take Rx medication, and it helps some.*
> 
> I always wonder, if for some people, even ONE hit of something hallucinogenic can do this.
> I have no trails, halos, static, etc.
> I have floaters which are normal and I'm very near-sighted.
> 
> I'll have to take the time to read through this whole thing ... sorry, LOOOOOOOONG thread.


Same here i find it hard to understand what people mean when they talk about visual symptoms. Only have a one or two visual symptoms and its now and then, along with floaters, which as you stated is normal anyway. I think its interesting coming from someone who has had it for such a long time has not had any visual problems with dp/dr though. Have your symptoms changed dramatically over the years? Do they change through the days and weeks?


----------



## Visual

Dreamer* said:


> *Holy Moses, this is a long thread. Every time I read about these visual symptoms I am stumped. And I am one person who has never taken ANY rec drug in my life. I have had alcohol over the years, never been drunk. I have never smoked a cigarette, had a joint, etc.*
> 
> *The only drugs I've ever had in my system were Rx. I've also had surgery, under anesthesia, a number of times in my life. And I include in Rx things like antibiotics, etc., regular medications, not just psychiatric.*
> 
> BUT, this is one thing I cannot connect with on any level. I mean I can understand what is happening and it seems horrible. The photo is an excellent way to depict it, but as an individual with chronic DP/DR since childhood essentially, 24/7 since my 20s give or take (KNOWING what clear reality is as that would come and go in childhood), I have never had these visual experiences.
> 
> *I also know without a doubt that I have chronic DP/DR, no doubt. And I have had a formal diagnosis since 1975. I take Rx medication, and it helps some.*
> 
> I always wonder, if for some people, even ONE hit of something hallucinogenic can do this.
> I have no trails, halos, static, etc.
> I have floaters which are normal and I'm very near-sighted.
> 
> I'll have to take the time to read through this whole thing ... sorry, LOOOOOOOONG thread.


It is interesting to try to understand other people symptoms though 'non-relate-able'. All this under DP/DR classification.

I used to have complete normal, even exceptional vision - simply no issues at all, day or night. Could see the mountains. Run at night with dim moonlight on lava beds with dangerous cracks to fall down into - no problems while others around struggled. Read small print just inches from nose. Find tiny object dropped in carpeting or grass in seconds. Now I look for something that is right in front, completely obvious, with difficulty. Yet everything looks crystal clear.

I don't understand completely numb, but can barely grasp completely connected - an in-between man. Recently have noticed that several members here speak of numb but relate hypersensitivity underneath it (which includes myself). You mention being a very sensitive child/person so may fit this group too. And many write about their numbness yet the words written are full of emotion - it is there, even expressed, yet not felt.

It is interesting to compare my DP with my DR - two completely different diagnosis, onsets, reason, etc. Yet the underlying commonality is the brain's ability to learn, relearn, process, and experience life. The similarities are as striking as the differences.

Look forward to your thoughts as you read this topic







.


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## Guest

Visual Dude said:


> It is interesting to try to understand other people symptoms though 'non-relate-able'. All this under DP/DR classification.
> 
> I don't understand completely numb, but can barely grasp completely connected - an in-between man. Recently have noticed that several members here speak of numb but relate hypersensitivity underneath it (which includes myself). You mention being a very sensitive child/person so may fit this group too. And many write about their numbness yet the words written are full of emotion - it is there, even expressed, yet not felt.
> 
> It is interesting to compare my DP with my DR - two completely different diagnosis, onsets, reason, etc. Yet the underlying commonality is the brain's ability to learn, relearn, process, and experience life. The similarities are as striking as the differences.
> 
> Look forward to your thoughts as you read this topic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


OMG, this is a long thread, LOL. Just wanted to respond briefly.

1. No one who knew me when I was young thought anything was wrong with me. My grades were all over the place in school, but I went to private school and the teachers were great. I think THEY knew something was wrong at home and with me but really couldn't do much.

2. If you met me right now I would be bubbly, entertaining, funny, not shy, etc. I "present well." But if I have to do that for long periods of time I get very tired.

3. For me I have a scale of dissociation ... made it when I was young. 0 means I do not exist at all. 100 is normal, 100% clear reality. I have felt level 100, and I feel I have been damned close to 0. At zero (well I've described it in depth on my site) but the bottom line is I "am the only thought in existence" ... I can't really even "see very well." It is like a waking nightmare and I can't "wake up." Detached visually (everything flat/dark) and physically -- you could hit me with a bat and it wouldn't really bother me. I'm just "not there."

I have had bad episodes more in my youth and through my 40s. I have had about 2 bad episodes in the past 2 years in my 50s. In all cases, episodes were terrible with lack of sleep, anticipatory anxiety over some big event (like performing), chaos == too much input at work, etc.

But I was just going to say ... and this sort of confuses the issue as I will say I think I am a sensitive person though it's hard to read that over the internet, I seem to come off as a bossy bitch sometimes ... I'm not.

But I think of it this way. To ME, the bad symptoms are SO HORRIBLE (though I have complete insight into them) I cannot believe they are anything LESS than a severe NEUROLOGICAL PERCEPTUAL DISTORTION. Episodes that say last an hour or so like that ... I can't move, speak, feel. You could throw me down a set of stairs -- it's like being a ghost. Something is terribly wrong, and if I were stuck there, I am serious I would attempt to kill myself, but feeling so much dead ALREADY, I'm not sure how I'd accomplish that. Seriously.

It varies in intensity. When I am in control of my environment it is around 60, I am 60% here in my body, and the DR is always worse so it makes it move to 50. In very bad times I hovered around 30. Better times 70? I am pretty stable now, but I would give anything to be in reality again. Anything.

So, then, how is it I "feel", HAVE emotions, and yet feel detached. I think, well, if you had migraine or severe headache you were trying to get through the day with, or had a terrible pain in your back ... you'd still be YOU. You might "hide" the pain. Sometimes you might be better at hiding it than other times. There were a good number of years I was housebound pretty much.

I never feel that the DP/DR has changed who I AM, who Sandy is. NEVER. I see it as an illness on TOP of who I am. But BECAUSE of the type of person I am, I may have been more susceptible to dissociate, to be anxious, to be sad.

I'll stop there or I could go on. My website describes a lot of my symptoms.

_*Also, this is interesting. The DSM IV, and the DSM 5 in progress, and The Merck Manual online NEVER describe visual problems with Depersonalization Disorder. I find that interesting. And now I need to refer back to Dr. Sierra's book to see what he described. I associate VISUAL trails/halos/static to HPPD. And I'd gather if I looked it up, those things would be included.

I don't know what to make of this.

Only thing I can say is if you add one variable, it changes things. I am a 100% example of someone with not one rec drug -- specifically ANY hallucinogen or excessive drinking, etc. (a depressant). Not ONE SINGLE JOINT IN MY LIFE. And I have NO visual problems. DR I see as a perceptual distortion having to do with how I process incoming stimuli, it is not a problem with VISION. But the static, trails, etc. have to be caused by the brain, they are not a problem with the eyes as I understand it.*_

I'm going to have to take a week to read this darned thread. If it keeps going, OMG. LOL.


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## Visual

*Also, this is interesting. The DSM IV, and the DSM 5 in progress, and The Merck Manual online NEVER describe visual problems with Depersonalization Disorder. I find that interesting. And now I need to refer back to Dr. Sierra's book to see what he described. I associate VISUAL trails/halos/static to HPPD. And I'd gather if I looked it up, those things would be included.*

Depersonalization is defined as problems pertaining to "self-awareness".

Derealization is an alteration in the perception or experience of the external world so that it seems strange or unreal.

Curiously, Depersonalization Disorder is "a dissociative disorder in which the sufferer is affected by persistent or recurrent feelings of depersonalization and/or derealization." Thus lumping them together. [of course this is Wiki ]

Recently I was surprised to see a migraine web site classify all persistent visual problems (including HPPD and visual snow) as migraines. So is all DR migraine? Or some? But this leads to a different topic &#8230;

Many medical problems have clearer diagnosis: Broken bone: just a crack, a clean break, or compound (sticking out your skin). Tumor: benign, malignant, in-between (carcinoid), etc&#8230; (the types explode from here). Infection: amoebas, bacteria, virus, yeast, &#8230;

Understanding the problem leads to possible effective treatments.

With DP/DR - Doesn't exist, all in the mind, anxiety disorder, sleep disorder, epilepsy, migraine, head injury, repressed memories, hypochondria, withdrawal, defense mechanism, &#8230;

This is so extremely broad - no wonder there is difficulty treating it. Like nailing down jelly.

This leaves us nailing it down, which is frustrating. The amount of research and trial-and-error is large and requires working relationships with doctors. This fatigues, to say the least. Given the amount of 'out-of-it' that many of us suffer, the task often remains neglected.

So I thank Bluetank for starting this topic. And the whole forum for its input. Together we can at least find possibilities to help each other.


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## Guest

I would clarify the definition as it stands in the DSM.

*DP is a change in the way one's body feels.* For me, one example is my arms do not feel attached to my body, even though I obviously see them. A friend described one lingering symptom of DP -- her hands feel like dough. This are specific feelings related to your physical body. Also, my body feels "numb" or that I am "drawn inside my body" an inch or so and cannot completely FEEL things. I feel "numbness of my body" though I KNOW it shouldn't feel that way.

*DR is a change in your perception of the world.* For me, things look darker, dimmer, filtered, flat (2 dimensional).

I would say the definition of DP as a secondary symptom or as a disorder is the same. The disorder simply implies this is chronic.

It is a very specific definition. It hasn't changed since I was first diagnosed so many years ago.

It would seem if visual disturbances were a problem for many with DP, they would be included in various reputable journal articles, in research, and even in the stupid DSM 5. I have seen the draft of the DSM 5 and actually contributed my two cents. There is NO change save stating that DP/DR can be COMORBID with many other disorders, not specifically secondary if it is CHRONIC. This may be a error in reporting, not enough individuals to research, etc. Individuals afraid of reporting symptoms to their doctors.

I know I also have anxiety and depression. Social anxiety and GAD -- both of these fit me to a "t" and are DIFFERENT diagnoses. I also have depression which I fit to a "t." But the combo for me is UNIQUE, as it is for everyone.

For most people, to the best of my understanding, no one with a brain disorder has ONE problem.

And the overall definition of DP/DR is "feelings of unreality" or as I would say, the perception of a "whole Self" ... the symptoms may very well cause us to ASK the existential questions. I don't know.


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## Guest

More reliable than Wikipedia is The Merck Manual online, recently updated in 2008 (the DSM IV was published in 1994!)
This was written by Daphne Simeon who has researched DP/DR for decades. Why does she not mention visual disturbances?

http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/sec15/ch197/ch197b.html

"Depersonalization disorder consists of persistent or recurrent feelings of being detached from one's body or mental processes, usually with a feeling of being an outside observer of one's life. The disorder is often triggered by severe stress. Diagnosis is based on symptoms after other possible causes are ruled out. Treatment consists of psychotherapy.

About 20 to 40% of the general population have had a transient experience of depersonalization, frequently occurring in connection with life-threatening danger, acute drug intoxication (marijuana, hallucinogens, ketamine, ecstasy ...
sensory deprivation, or sleep deprivation. Depersonalization can also occur as a symptom in many other mental disorders as well as in physical disorders such as seizure disorders (ictal or postictal). *When depersonalization occurs independently of other mental or physical disorders and is persistent or recurrent, depersonalization disorder is present. It is estimated to occur in about 2% of the general population.*

*Symptoms and Signs*

Patients feel detached from their body, mind, feelings, or sensations. Most patients also say they feel unreal (derealization), like an automaton, or as if they were in a dream or in some other way detached from the world. Some patients cannot recognize or describe their emotions (alexithymia). Patients may describe themselves as the "walking dead." Symptoms are almost always distressing and, when severe, profoundly intolerable. Anxiety and depression are common.

*Symptoms are often chronic; about 1/3 of patients have recurrent episodes, and 2/3 have continuous symptoms. Episodic symptoms sometimes become continuous.*

Patients often have great difficulty describing their symptoms and may fear or believe they are going crazy. They always retain the knowledge that their unreal experiences are not real but rather are just the way that they feel. This awareness differentiates depersonalization disorder from a psychotic disorder, in which such insight is always lacking." <------- we have insight. We know we aren't supposed to be feeling this way.
------------------------------------------------
One can have many other disorders that come with DP/DR. This includes STROKE, Brain tumors, and virtually every mental illness. So we can look at it as a lovely SYNDROME as I would call it, that tags along with various disorders, such as anxiety does.


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## Guest

j4mtj said:


> I think the visual disturbances are more related to HPPD:
> 
> There are a number of perceptual changes that can accompany HPPD. Typical symptoms of the disorder include: halos or auras surrounding objects, trails following objects in motion, difficulty distinguishing between colors, apparent shifts in the hue of a given item, the illusion of movement in a static setting, air assuming a grainy or textured quality (visual snow or static, by popular description), distortions in the dimensions of a perceived object, and a heightened awareness of floaters. The visual alterations experienced by those with HPPD are not homogeneous and there appear to be individual differences in both the number and intensity of symptoms.
> 
> In some cases, HPPD appears to have a sudden onset after a single drug experience, strongly suggesting the drug played a direct role in triggering symptoms. But in other cases, people report gradual worsening of symptoms with ongoing drug use.
> 
> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogen_persisting_perception_disorder


I agree. I found a current medical article on this as well. I think our experiences of DP/DR are the same in the most basic definitions. Then there are others who have the additional HPPD-like symptoms. My one observation is I feel I am in a minority here. As noted I have never tried ANY rec drug, and never tried a hallucinogen ... and I mean, never. My one case proves nothing, but as years have gone by on this board, there has been a huge increase of individuals who are younger and who have experimented with drugs -- sometimes in quantities I find terrifying. It is a little disturbing.

*Drug Alcohol Depend. 2011 Mar 1;114(1):61-7. Epub 2010 Oct 28.*
*Abnormal visual experiences in individuals with histories of hallucinogen use: A web-based questionnaire.*

_*Baggott MJ, Coyle JR, Erowid E, Erowid F, Robertson LC.

Addiction and Pharmacology Research Laboratory, California Pacific Medical Center Research Institute, 3555 Cesar Chavez, San Francisco, CA 94110, United States.*_

Abstract

"Despite longstanding reports of prolonged or reoccurring perceptual changes in a subset of hallucinogen users, very little is known about Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder and related visual abnormalities in hallucinogen users.

We used an online questionnaire to document the symptoms and relationship to drug use of unusual visual phenomena in hallucinogen users.

16,192 individuals viewed the information sheet and 2679 were included in the study. Of these, 224 reported having unrelated diagnoses associated with unusual visual experiences and were excluded from main analyses.

Most (60.6%) of the remaining 2455 participants reported having experienced drug-free visual experiences that resembled hallucinogen effects.

*Probability of experiencing constant or near-constant symptoms was predicted by greater past exposure to specific hallucinogens, including lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD). Although symptoms were common, few (104, or 4.2% of the sample) found them distressing or impairing enough to consider seeking treatment.*

Visual changes in hallucinogen users may be more common than previously suspected and are worthy of further study."

Copyright © 2010 Elsevier Ireland Ltd. All rights reserved.
PMID: 21035275 [PubMed - in process]


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## Visual

*I would clarify the definition as it stands in the DSM...*

Basically, since the DSM (etc.) does not include any visual symptoms, it would seem that these are NOT DPD. Therefore are neurological in nature (mild systemic failures in visual processing)?

I especially like to draw attention to these, not as comorbid conditions, but as comorbid diagnosis of the same condition! For some, onset of DP is simultaneous with visual/perceptual disturbances. Furthermore, fear and anxiety soar for many - and if you look at the physical structure of the brain, vision connects to the amygdala (the heart of fight/flight - fear) with high speed that precedes thought (automatic, uncontrolled panic response).

*I think the visual disturbances are more related to HPPD*

This is a logic first step, but it is necessary to proceed deeper&#8230;

*As noted I have never tried ANY rec drug, and never tried a hallucinogen ... and I mean, never.*

As you have stated, you do not suffer visual crap. Look at the three major posters under this topic:

BlueTank - Very light trial of weed many years ago, onset a year ago during heavy stress, condition is hereditary
Ludwig80 - Not a drug user, started after some beer, has a mild liver enzyme weakness
Visual Dude - Never tried ANY recreation drug, condition result of accidental poisoning

HPPD, according to dear old public encyclopedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogen_persisting_perception_disorder

_Co-existing problems

The visual problems of HPPD can occur along with other mental ailments. Of these, the most prominent are anxiety, panic attacks, depersonalization disorder, and depression. In the sample of Baggott and colleagues, hallucinogen users with persisting and severe visual problems were significantly more likely to report anxiety and depression diagnoses than hallucinogen users without serious visual problems. For example, 25.9% of hallucinogen users with visual problems reported current or past diagnosis of depression. While it is difficult, if not impossible, to establish a clear relationship between the visual and mental symptoms, those with HPPD often testify that a connection indeed exists. For example, anxiety can cause the visuals to become more prominent and vice-versa. Anecdotal wisdom thus maintains that there is a synergistic link between the two. However, there appear to be people with 'pure' cases of HPPD in which no other disorders co-exist.

Treatment

As of yet, there is no cure available for HPPD. The principal treatments seek to reduce symptoms and distress without treating underlying causes. Benzodiazepines including clonazepam (Klonopin), diazepam (Valium) and alprazolam (Xanax) are prescribed with a fair amount of success. Some medications have been contraindicated on the basis of their effects on HPPD or the concurrent mental issues. The atypical antipsychotic Risperidone is reported to worsen symptoms of HPPD during the drug's duration in some people._

I have specifically discussed HPPD with doctors and am told it doesn't apply. But the above excerpts apply in treatment including antipsychotics worsening symptoms. Anxiety has no effect on visuals. Fatigue/stress does.

Actual diagnosis so far are, toxic encephalitis (acquired brain injury) and parkinsonism. Am currently in the process of verifying Post-Trauma Vision Syndrome, a condition that exactly explains 90% of my issues and ties in the parkinsonism.


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## Guest

Visual Dude said:


> *I would clarify the definition as it stands in the DSM...*
> 
> Basically, since the DSM (etc.) does not include any visual symptoms, it would seem that these are NOT DPD. Therefore are neurological in nature (mild systemic failures in visual processing)?
> 
> I especially like to draw attention to these, not as comorbid conditions, but as comorbid diagnosis of the same condition! For some, onset of DP is simultaneous with visual/perceptual disturbances. Furthermore, fear and anxiety soar for many - and if you look at the physical structure of the brain, vision connects to the amygdala (the heart of fight/flight - fear) with high speed that precedes thought (automatic, uncontrolled panic response).
> 
> *I think the visual disturbances are more related to HPPD*
> 
> This is a logic first step, but it is necessary to proceed deeper&#8230;
> 
> *As noted I have never tried ANY rec drug, and never tried a hallucinogen ... and I mean, never.*
> 
> As you have stated, you do not suffer visual crap. Look at the three major posters under this topic:
> 
> BlueTank - Very light trial of weed many years ago, onset a year ago during heavy stress, condition is hereditary
> Ludwig80 - Not a drug user, started after some beer, has a mild liver enzyme weakness
> Visual Dude - Never tried ANY recreation drug, condition result of accidental poisoning
> 
> HPPD, according to dear old public encyclopedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogen_persisting_perception_disorder
> 
> _Co-existing problems
> 
> The visual problems of HPPD can occur along with other mental ailments. Of these, the most prominent are anxiety, panic attacks, depersonalization disorder, and depression. In the sample of Baggott and colleagues, hallucinogen users with persisting and severe visual problems were significantly more likely to report anxiety and depression diagnoses than hallucinogen users without serious visual problems. For example, 25.9% of hallucinogen users with visual problems reported current or past diagnosis of depression. While it is difficult, if not impossible, to establish a clear relationship between the visual and mental symptoms, those with HPPD often testify that a connection indeed exists. For example, anxiety can cause the visuals to become more prominent and vice-versa. Anecdotal wisdom thus maintains that there is a synergistic link between the two. However, there appear to be people with 'pure' cases of HPPD in which no other disorders co-exist.
> 
> Treatment
> 
> As of yet, there is no cure available for HPPD. The principal treatments seek to reduce symptoms and distress without treating underlying causes. Benzodiazepines including clonazepam (Klonopin), diazepam (Valium) and alprazolam (Xanax) are prescribed with a fair amount of success. Some medications have been contraindicated on the basis of their effects on HPPD or the concurrent mental issues. The atypical antipsychotic Risperidone is reported to worsen symptoms of HPPD during the drug's duration in some people._
> 
> I have specifically discussed HPPD with doctors and am told it doesn't apply. But the above excerpts apply in treatment including antipsychotics worsening symptoms. Anxiety has no effect on visuals. Fatigue/stress does.
> 
> Actual diagnosis so far are, toxic encephalitis (acquired brain injury) and parkinsonism. Am currently in the process of verifying Post-Trauma Vision Syndrome, a condition that exactly explains 90% of my issues and ties in the parkinsonism.


OK, I'm going to try to respond step by step here:

1. I may be misunderstanding this statement:

_Basically, since the DSM (etc.) does not include any visual symptoms, it would seem that these are NOT DPD. Therefore are neurological in nature (mild systemic failures in visual processing)?
I especially like to draw attention to these, not as comorbid conditions, but as comorbid diagnosis of the same condition_

OK, I am saying, yes if research into DP (as a secondary symptom to panic, etc.) or a chronic DPDisorder does not include SPECIFIC symptoms having to do with _*visual trails, halos, static, etc.*_ how can we say that these visual symptoms are COMMON in DP/DR IN GENERAL. I checked Mauricio Sierra's book, and unless someone finds something I missed, I can't find or recall visual trails, halos, static, etc. mentioned as what would be part of what is called Depersonalization Disorder.

But then you say these visual symptoms are neurological ... OK, but they are still separate from DP/DR ... but in my book DP/DR are neurological ... so we are talking about basically 3 groups of people.
A. Individuals with HPPD who have vision problems Hallucinogen Persisting Perceptual Disorder -- a very specific diagnosis in and of itself who DO NOT HAVE DP/DR.
B. Individuals such as myself and a good number on this board (_*I said I am not statistical proof of anything as one case*_) have only DP/DR ... no HPPD symptoms.
C. Some individuals here with DPD, also seem to have HPPD symptoms.

There seems to be a randomness to this, though I have a sense that those with more HPPD symptoms might have more drug use/experimentation as well as having DPD. I don't know. I don't know why there is such an overlap. But I know from the past, DPers have not found they belong 100% on an HPPD forum, and HPPDers do not find they belong 100% on a DP forum. There is a predominance of one set of symptoms over the other.

All this means to me is that some people here can have HPPD COMORBID with DP/DR ... these are TWO separate neurological conditions. It is not necessarily true that both occur together (and research, and the Merck Manual, and the DSM IV and DSM 5 in preparation -- DO NOT INDICATE THAT HPPD like visual symptoms are part of the diagnostic criteria of DPD. And again, as noted by the two top researchers in the field Simeon and Sierra, they do NOT mention these HPPD type visual disturbances as part of their definition of DPD.

2. In discussing HPPD and co-occuring or COMORBID ailments. This merely states that individuals who have ingested a hallucinogen and have HPPD may have other comorbid emotional problems. And there can be many reasons for this obviously. But again, we are talking HPPD vs. DPD still having been divided up into TWO SEPARATE SYNDROMES. They obviously don't appear to be MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE of each other, but I would say in the main BY DEFINITION they are SEPARATE DISORDERS.

And the final sentence states:
_*"However, there appear to be people with 'pure' cases of HPPD in which no other disorders co-exist."*_

As I said, I do not believe it is common for any neurological/psychiatric problem to exist in a vacuum, all by itself. Depression often has anxiety that comes with it, but not always. I know of several people here with DP/DR who have no anxiety. (One may have been due to a head injury).

3. I had not heard of Post-Trauma Vision Syndrome before this post. I did not find it in the Merck Manual and am too tired to look in the DSM, but I don't recall coming across that. When I found a site it described the following -- and it seems to be the result of TRAMATIC BRAIN INJURY from acutal physical trauma to the brain from say an auto accident.

http://www.tsbvi.edu/seehear/archive/posttrauma.htm

The characteristics of post trauma vision syndrome include:

* Difficulty with binocular vision function
* Difficulties with accommodation
* Low blink rate
* Inability to perceive spatial relationships between and among objects
* Difficulty fixating on an object and pursuing the object visually when it moves
* Abnormal posture
* Double vision
* Clumsiness
* Objects appear to move when they are not actually moving
* Poor concentration and attention
* Poor visual memory
* Inability to perceive the entire picture or to integrate its parts
* Inability to read despite the ability to write
* Failure to attend to objects presented in a particular place
* Inability to recognize objects with their vision alone
* Inability to distinguish colors
* Inability to visually guide their arms, legs, hands, and feet
* Visual field loss

_*Nothing on this list describes HPPD like visual symptoms. These are symptoms of war veterans as well who have a Traumatic Brain injury from being hit in the head with bomb fragments, having part of their skull destroyed -- exposing brain matter, etc.*_

------------------
Finally, I am finding it difficult to follow all the theories here, mainly because I am not a doctor, or more specifically a neurologist or neuro-scientist. If professionals are still struggling to understand so many different mental illnesses, neurological disorders, perceptual disorders, etc. how can we do anything but speculate.

I have known individuals with HPPD who had no DP/DR symptoms. I have known individuals with DP/DR who have had no HPPD symptoms. I have heard many stories here of individuals who clearly have DP/DR and also have visual problems that sound like HPPD. I can't figure why. 
-------------------

Have to stop. Info overload, lol.

I am NOT disputing that individuals here with DP/DR have HPPD visual symptoms. I don't understand why. I made an observation that I see many individuals here have experimented a LOT, and others have only had one joint. Some of us here were abused, some of us were not. Some of us here have Borderline Personality, some have OCD, some have bipolar, some have schizoprhenia, some have depression, some have anxiety disorders of many types.

These are all separate syndromes with PREDOMINANT defining features, and they can come with other symptoms as well.


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## ludwig80

D. People on VisualSnow board who suffer seem to bear symptoms from dp/dr board and hppd board, migraine related.

I'm not sure why the back and forth. Everyone is different and likely will experience it differently. If my vision processing is genetically weaker then some, then just having DP/DR may effect my vision because of the nature of DP/DR(whatever that may be, neurological, etc..). For those with a stronger visual setup, Dp/Dr may never effect their sight. Onset of Dp/Dr and hppd seem to go hand and hand for me, for what it's worth.


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## Visual

I honestly find your statement very discouraging. And undermining what I wish to accomplish on this forum. Perhaps I am misunderstanding?

*If professionals are still struggling to understand so many different mental illnesses, neurological disorders, perceptual disorders, etc. how can we do anything but speculate.*

Definition: _speculate_ - Form a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence.

So what constitutes firm evidence?

Do you suggest that we all wait for the experts to come to better agreements?

Is it wrong to try to understand your own disease?

Is it inappropriate to encourage other to try what has worked for oneself?


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## Guest

Visual Dude said:


> I honestly find your statement very discouraging. And undermining what I wish to accomplish on this forum. Perhaps I am misunderstanding?
> 
> *If professionals are still struggling to understand so many different mental illnesses, neurological disorders, perceptual disorders, etc. how can we do anything but speculate.*
> 
> Definition: _speculate_ - Form a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence.
> 
> So what constitutes firm evidence?
> 
> Do you suggest that we all wait for the experts to come to better agreements?
> 
> Is it wrong to try to understand your own disease?
> 
> Is it inappropriate to encourage other to try what has worked for oneself?


Ah, Visual Dude, you know me better than that.

I have done a tremendous amount of research on not just DP, but all mental illness, and perceptual distortions over the years. _*I also don't know how we CAN'T say that those (all over the world) seem to define these two illnesses as something SEPARATE, even if they occur simultaeously -- they are syndromes that can exists together (comorbid) or separately.*_ One thing I have seen remain constant are the criteria for DP/DR. And these criteria are based on studies that include (in more recent years) fMRIs which are rather revealing. Controlled double blind studies, etc.)

Of course, we must be advocates for ourselves. Again, this is why I have contributed comments to the DSM 5. _*But on the internet, on this BOARD, statistics are terribly distorted. Also, as you and I both agree, many individuals here are self-diagnosed and I'd figure many are misdiagnosed.*_

_*I feel I am only "expert" -- and not even that -- in my OWN EXPERIENCE *_with DP/DR and my other disorders. I can only speak from my own horror, from my own feelings, but again over a period of 52 years. And my POV re: the cause of this in ME has varied over the years.

Honestly, in reading journals, I become lost (how can we understand the complexity of activities of genes/genomes and events at a MOLECULAR level) ... and when I discuss things with my current psychiatrist (who is young, 29, and plans to go into research not practicing psychiatry) he is VERY interested in my case, going out of his way with GREATER knowledge than I have in medicine, to study my case. I also said, he is the one, who after all these years, truly defined one of my key problems "Social Anxiety" which indeed is different from my other diagnoses of "Generalized Anxiety." No other doctor or therapist used that term before, and when I read about it, I found THAT explains more about my anxiety though I have BOTH PROBLEMS -- they are CO-MORBID -- why do I have both? And with those, they are indeed very distinct. Not everyone has both.

I also see, and this is again my motto, each and every one of us here is UNIQUE. We have a shared experience, no question about it. But many of us have other problems besides the DP/DR. How much do these problems affect the DP/DR. Being schizoprhenic and having DP/DR is different from having panic attacks with DP/DR ... or rather, there is more at work.

I am not waiting around for answers, I am proactive, but I have to depend on medical research by individuals I respect. I personally do not have the knowledge ... which is extensive in breadth and depth ... to know as much as my own psychiatrist. And I don't have the experience of my ACSW therapist who has seen patients come through her office for 25 years.

This is all I'm saying.

And I feel I at minimum am speculating at this point -- or rather I always was and will continue to do so as a layperson. I don't know WHY people who have not taken hallucinogens have the HPPD symptoms. I can't even hazard a guess.

That's all I'm saying. And perhaps I'm getting tired of coming to dead ends in my own understanding. But I have come to a pretty firm belief that DP/DR is a neurological disorder, just like chronic anxiety, OCD, bipolar, yada ..... something that causes someone to seek help for interference in social and occupational functioning is not "normal." And I know plenty of "mentally healthy people" who LITERALLY have never experiences dissociation of any form. Some do not even know what I talk about when I say deja-vu.

In simplest terms, I see it as a NORMAL survival function gone bad. And then if we know this also occurs in migraine, seizure auras, stroke, brain tumors, and here don't seem to be HPPD symptoms in those cases ... I don't know what that means. And in some cases I've posted here. One case of a woman having used an anti-acne Rx which caused her to have DP/DR, and a good number of other studies where individuals have actual surgical procedures on their brains -- for everything from chronic Tinnitus to epilepsy to brain tumor to ..... etc. and can be CAUSED to have perceptual distortions of all kinds which are disturbing to them. OBE experiences, DP/DR.

Also various scans and autopsies on brains which would indicate individuals with anxiety have a smaller hippocampus ...cause or result? and yes, have problems with their amygdala, or are dealing with some problem in the hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal Axis. Can these ALL be the same reasons for having DP?

I DON'T KNOW. People who are experts in the field DON'T KNOW.
I have also been attacked over the years by people saying that my research into mental illnesses is PERPETUATING my DP/DR. I don't believe that at all. It is empowering, and it is necessary for my mental health advocacy. Not the career I have my degrees in. And I have taken certain medications for years which some say "are a crutch" and I don't believe that either. And everyone here has had a different family experience, environmental influences of various kinds.

Again we are all unique.

_*Also, perhaps, there is DPD, HPPD, and a SEPARATE disorder that is indeed a combo of both, IDK.*_

And also, I could say to you ... and this always shocks me. I had breast cancer removed from my body last summer. I have to be on hormone medication for five years. I escaped chemo because of NEW GENETIC test done on the tumor itself that was available in _*2004 -- women before that year underwent chemo whether it changed outcome or not, and you can die from chemo.*_. My doctors who are experts in something they can see, examine under a microscope, study genetically, cannot give me ANY definitive answer on my long term outcome -- and there is no cure for cancer. I wouldn't begin to know where to start on improving my odds of not gettng cancer again. I have to depend on research. And research saved me from chemo. A VERY recent discovery.

And sorry, I had to edit this. My spelling is getting bad. My grammar, worse.


----------



## Guest

PS, Visual. I am always expecting the Fish Eye. The owl eye scared the $#it out of me for some reason. Novelty for me is disconcerting. In the past it could bring on worse DP/DR. Now, no. I just laughed.


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## EverDream

Iv'e never used any kind of drugs. I used to have lots of visual disturbances that were very severe but I don't think it was HPPD. I also had some kind of OBE (it only happened one time). I believe that HPPD and stuff like that is probably more common in drugged-induced but can happen for a lot of other reasons as well.


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## Visual

Dreamer* said:


> PS, Visual. I am always expecting the Fish Eye. The owl eye scared the $#it out of me for some reason. Novelty for me is disconcerting. In the past it could bring on worse DP/DR. Now, no. I just laughed.


Sorry to scare. I wanted to post a compound eye from a bug - to represent dissociation and the multitude of views. But the ones I found seemed too obtuse.


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## Visual

EverDream said:


> Iv'e never used any kind of drugs. I used to have lots of visual disturbances that were very severe but I don't think it was HPPD. I also had some kind of OBE (it only happened one time). I believe that HPPD and stuff like that is probably more common in drugged-induced but can happen for a lot of other reasons as well.


Would love to learn more about what you experienced. Can you describe these disturbances? Do you still have them?


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## Guest

Everdream, I'd also like to hear, and also, Everdream is studying pathology of the eye, so she knows what she's talking about.

Now, I went searching around again, looking simply for "vision trailers" -- I came up with this forum where individuals are talking ONLY about visual problems like trails, etc. and having gone to a doctor because of the symptoms.

Say there are actual visual disorders (and I have had detached retinas where I've seen fireworks) that are occuring with some with DP/DR.
My only real concern is why visual symptoms such as the trailing of light specifically which would be described in HPPD, NOT be discussed in books and articles ON DP/DR. How could so many individuals who have been studied for DP/DR NOT express visual symptoms that are like HPPD to those researching the topic?

http://ehealthforum.com/health/topic59696.html

I'm confused.
I will keep researching.
And I do want to hear from EverDream who indeed is studying diseases of the eye.
If I am incorrect on this -- if there are journal articles or something I missed from any research book PLEASE TELL ME.

And Visual Dude I was just kidding, but the eyeball took me by surprise, LOL.


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## Guest

http://ehealthforum.com/health/human_eye.html

Oops ... from which I got the visual trailer google result.
Full EHealth Forum on Vision Problems


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## Guest

Still frustrated, I did one last thing ...

I just skimmed through Dr. Sierra's Medical Text On Depersonalization: A New Look At A Neglected Syndrome (which I find to be the best book on the topicc), and Marlene Steinberg's Stranger in the Mirror.

I then asked myself, _*why is it in the tests ... questionnaires ... such as the Cambridge Scale, etc. ... why do they include NO questions regarding visual disturbances? And again I do not mean DR which gives things the 2 dimensional, flat, colorless appearance to things.*_

Sierra DOES discuss drug induced DP/DR in which he notes that individuals can have "flashbacks" of a bad drug experience or rather "re-living" the experience of certain aspects of a drug trip. He does include cannabis, but also obviously -- LSD, Ketamine, Ecstasy, etc.

One thing I had forgotten -- my memory does stink -- is there is apparently some CULTURAL differences in prevalence of DP, and yet the results are not 100% clear as to why. Part of it seems to be related to differences in individualistic cultures (Western) vs. collectivistic cultures (Asian, African, Columbian) ...

Also, I had forgotten that there are more descriptions of DP/DR going back to the early 1800s before Dugas formally defined Depersonalization in the 1895. And then the question continues, what of the psychoanlytic school, Freud ... why are HPPD-like visuals not discussed?

*So, at this point I have no clue what to say.
I don't feel people are lying about their experiences, so I have no idea how experiences here seem to vary so differently re: the HPPD-type visual imagery in individuals who have never taken a rec drug. Truly a mystery to me.*

I seem to fit a classic example. Social phobia predisposes me to DP/DR. And chronic verbal abuse since childhood seem to be key factors.
That's all she said.








And I am not saying DON'T keep digging for understanding. That's what I just did for the past hour.
I HIGHLY recommend two books, and I will say it 50,000 times if necessary:

*Depersonalization: A New Look at a Neglected Syndrome* by Mauricio Sierra, M.D., Ph.D. 2009 Cambridge University Press

and:

*A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness* by V.S. Ramachandran, M.D., Ph.D., 2004, Pi Press, New York


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## Guest

GAH, last article I found interesting re: delayed onset of visual problems after use of certain drugs.

I think the fact that a brand new month is coming up means I need a serious break from this stuff, lol. I DO get carried away.

*Klin Monbl Augenheilkd. 2003 Mar;220(3):176-8.
Persisting visual hallucinations and illusions in previously drug-addicted patients.*

_*Gaillard MC, Borruat FX.
Hôpital Ophtalmique Jules Gonin, Lausanne, Switzerland.*_

Abstract

*BACKGROUND:* Tetrahydrocannabinol (cannabis) and lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) are psychomimetic agents that induce impairment of sensory perception. Illusions and hallucinations are mostly visual. Most frequently the visual phenomena occur in conjunction with drug abuse.

*PATIENTS AND METHODS:* Three previously drug-addicted patients were examined for either persisting or spontaneously recurrent visual phenomena. Two patients complained of persisting visual illusions (vibrations, dyskinetopsia and impaired depth perception) during more than 12 months after an excessive use of cannabis. The third patient was a multiple drug abuser (LSD for 6 years) and complained of visual hallucinations and palinopsia following heavy ethanol intake, 20 years after stopping the use of any drug.

*RESULTS:* Results from neuro-ophthalmic and neurological examinations were normal for the first two patients. The third patient presented abnormal visual fields with preserved visual acuity; electroencephalography was abnormal, suggesting an underlying toxic encephalopathy.

*CONCLUSIONS:* Persistent visual illusions or hallucinations can occur during several months after an intake of cannabis. Flash-back phenomena are frequent amongst LSD abusers. They rarely occur at long times after the last intake (20 years in the present case); when they do so, precipitating factors are often present (ethanol, medication, anesthesia). Such phenomena reflect the cortical dysfunctions that can be induced by illegal substances.

PMID: 12664374 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Oh, I forgot the link. It's in Pubmed.


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## EverDream

Dreamer, you give me WAY too much credit. I'm just a lousy 4 year student.

Hmmm... I think I just had severe DR. Accept from the "2 dimensional, flat, colorless appearance to things" I saw everything very blurry and fogy. Also had some visual snow. Though it's not HPPD, it was very visual and unbearable. Nowadays, I have much less of the visual disturbances.

I read about HPPD. It seems like nobody know too much about it. And it says that people who use drugs are the only ones that can have HPPD, well when I think of it, you can see it in the name of HPPD, lol. But who knows, maybe you can have similar symptoms and it just given another name for it.

Maybe I'll ask one of my tutors about it. I'm not so sure he will know what it is. And if he do, he will probably think I'm taking drugs, lol.


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## Visual

Dreamer,

In support of your observation about visual perception not being listed for DP:

The first year of my problems, the doctors began to hint that it was all mental, roll their eyes, hypochondria, wacho







, etc. So I started seeing a psychologist. After all, even though I knew it was neurological, fair-is-fair and the possibility needed to be addressed (not to mention the stress this all evoked).

She stated that the visual problems were clearly neurological, not psychological, and "stop wasting your time around here - go to Boston". Once she 'validated' these visual distortions, then doctors started to work harder to find a solution (sadly none of them have ever worked hard enough to sweat - apparently I am not worth even one single drop








)

The point here being that mental health care professionals, who are trained with the DSM, recognize these visual dysfunctions are not 'psychological' in origin (sans delusional disorders).

Perhaps we should make up a term for these problems since officially DP and DR don't involve these. Clearly many here have them to various degrees.

Perhaps *VPD* for Visual Perceptual Distortions/Dysfunction? [Wanted to use VD for Visual Distortions (so ego-centric after my name) but thought it might not be so good to go around telling everyone we have 'VD'







]


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## Guest

As I said, I can only say again ... Dr. Sierra's work, Dr. Simeon's work, and Dr. Stenberg's work have gone on for decades. Dr. Sierra in particular has researched individuals with tumors who have DP/DR, and looked into far more than just psychological aspects.

I am not debating that you or others here seem to have BOTH what I would call separate conditions, HPPD, and DPD. What is not possible at this point, is all the research that has gone into this, literally back to the 1800s where criteria and observations do not include something like that strobe effect. Perhaps there is some confusion about how we're defining the visual symptoms.

No one has ever said to me (save a psychoanlyst) that my problems DP/DR, anxiety, depression were NOT neurological. I have always felt that way myself. And as I said, my mother was diagnosing DP/DR in her patients in the 1960s and 70's and 80's.

All I'm saying is it is striking that in using the diagnosis of DP/DR that in all these years, the inclusion of HPPD like phenomena is NOT mentioned as part of DPD itself, but moreso with HPPD. And one can have BOTH HPPD and DPD. Or one can have only HPPD (the visual problems) or one can have DPD alone.

I have no idea what some of you are experiencing.

I have seen neurologists as well. The neurologists never asked about visual symptoms such as HPPD.

Visual, what you seem to be experiencing would seem to have to do with your literal physical illness you experienced after the DPD. I would guess -- what started your DR. THAT is different from having what would be classic DPD.

I'm just saying, a person can have a fever, but it could mean any number of things are wrong with the person.
A fever is one symptom of a multitude of illnesses:

1. A cold
2. Strep Throat
3. AIDS

When you go to a doctor, the doctor must also go down a list of criteria, just like Dr. House!, and determine the REASON the symptoms are occurring.
I'm only asking a question.

So, if a person has DPD, or symptoms of DP/DR, or has symptoms that sound like HPPD, a psychiatrist or a neurologist is going to examine you and attempt to find the source.

I have found only M.D. Psychiatrists or M.D. Neurologists have given me straight answers -- and I have had to push, bring in literature to educate a good number. My experience with psychologists over the years have been pretty fruitless and frustrating.

I am asking a question and have no answer to it and am mystified. In ALL the research done, also at McLean Hospital in Boston ... why are these HPPD symptoms either not mentioned by patients and not noted as being part of DPD -- an exclusive diagnosis of DPD.

This is like saying if someone comes in with Cotard's or Capgras syndrome (VERY specific disorders, separate in key ways) and describes HPPD symptoms, that would be unusual, and a doctor would have to look at both problems.

I'm saying, at this point, AND I MAY BE COMPLETELY WRONG, but I do not see HPPD symptoms as PART of a diagnosis of DPD. Though of course both symptoms could be COMORBID, occur together. And what I mean by that, to clarify, is a person could have CANCER and have Rheumatoid Arthritis. These are TWO separate illnesses. Having one is not a SYMPTOM of the other, but you could have both at the same time, and as you get older boy do you get a lot of different things wrong with you! One can have "dual diagnosis" in a psychiatric condition which means, they have bipolar but also abuse alcohol. This is rather common. For some reason individuals with bipolar are four times the average to abuse alcohol. They are "self medicating" or perhaps there is a connection with addictive or self-destructive behavior.

But the use of alcohol or drugs in a bipolar individual is not a GIVEN. Actor Charlie Sheen is one example where if you get underneath the alcoholism, I think we're seeing mania. I'm not sure. He needs help for BOTH problems. Two separate problems.

As Everdream said, HPPD ... the first word is HALLUCINOGEN, and that would indicate you have it because you ingested a hallucinogen. For those who have this and haven't, it has to be something else. And I would think one would need to go to a neurologist to figure why this is happening.

I'm simply trying (as a doctor's daughter and someone who has researched this) to say that there ARE reasons for codifying symptoms or doctors could not distinguish and treat illnesses properly. A clear diagnosis is the only way to being treated properly. If one doctor doesn't believe you ... you must seek out another.

I believe mental illnesses (including DP/DR) are neurological. Also HPPD. Something has changed in the brain.

I'm not sure what the disagreement is here.

D


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## Guest

*And I guess I could say, are you simply dismissing the decades of work by Dr. Sierra, Dr. Simeon, V.S. Ramachandran, Marlene Steinberg, even Dugas who made the diagnosis official in 1898?, and other individuals who specialize in DPD (occurring in neurological disorders as well as a psychiatric symptom -- and again I see psychiatric as neurological). They have encountered more people with DP/DR IN PERSON and performed studies on them than anyone else.*

If I can't have some faith in THEIR work -- not all of my own psychiatrists/therapists -- well then I can have no faith in the work that has been done with my breast cancer.

And it would seem, in some individuals, one joint that causes distress, DP/DR, can come back to haunt you some time after you've taken it. If that is so and you experienced HPPD symptoms ... it is possible that is what it is related to. I CANNOT explain it.

Also, tests I have had in the past have included a FULL phsyical workup, taking the MMPI (Multiphasic Personality Inventory), blood tests, as well as a a 3 hour interview. These have occurred with the best doctors. Lack of knowledge/understanding of so many things does not mean the answers aren't out there.

Also, I know many here have NOT GONE TO A PSYCHIATRIST, and are guessing as to what is going on. But I am not saying it is not productive to do your own research. I have and continue to do so. But I will never be looking under a microscope of brain tissue. I couldn't even see the cancer on my mammogram. And several doctors showed it to me. I can't read an X-Ray. That's just a fact.

_*I understand your frustration. I can only say, I have theories of my own illnesses. And those theories could change tomorrow. But I see DPD and HPPD as different syndromes. I also read something last night, and can't find it, that with DPD, we are so SELF CONSCIOUS it is possible we see what healthy people see, only we exaggerate it. I recall as a young person, I would stare at a carpet, and if I stared at it long enough I would see a face, or an animal pattern. This is common. The brain "fills in the gaps."*_


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## Guest

_*Finally again -- I see ALL PERCEPTUAL DISTORTIONS -- DPD AND HPPD as neurological. Something is wrong with our perceptions and that starts in the brain. I do not believe the SYMPTOMS are psychological, they could have been exacerbated by abuse, neglect, chaos in my family, but I had a tendency to dissociate as a child, and a tendency to be terribly anxious. I was BORN that way.*_

Or I should also say ... see an opthalmologist if these visual symptoms persist.


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## gill

Does anyone find it interesting that micro/macropsia is a possible listed symptom of dissociation in definition, and also for hppd? I have both and I do think they are separate in the sense that all the other symptoms are different. But, I think that neurologically, it's probably something similar going on, just different areas of the brain which can effect each other.


----------



## Guest

gill said:


> Does anyone find it interesting that micro/macropsia is a possible listed symptom of dissociation in definition, and also for hppd? I have both and I do think they are separate in the sense that all the other symptoms are different. But, I think that neurologically, it's probably something similar going on, just different areas of the brain which can effect each other.


And that makes sense. Also the perceptual distortion of feeling smaller than normal, or taller -- Alice in Wonderland Syndrome. Perceptual distortions in body schema. And deja vu has never been clearly understood -- and I have had more deja vu in my lifetime than my "mentally healthy" friends who again don't always even know what it is.

My sense is yes, pot can bring on DP when smoked, so there has to be a common pathway somewhere ... it may come down to distorted body schema/perception.

And as to your question ... that's the million dollar question I wish someone could figure out. Fortunately there are researchers studying DP/DR and researchers studying HPPD. If they can understand the connections, then we'll have MORE information.

Read:
*Phantoms in the Brain*, V.S. Ramachandran, M.D., Ph.D. Neurologist UCSD -- brilliant guy.

*@Gil -- how is it you have HPPD -- do you know what brought it on? And did your DP come on at the same time, before, after, later? Thanks.*


----------



## gill

Dreamer* said:


> *@Gil -- how is it you have HPPD -- do you know what brought it on? And did your DP come on at the same time, before, after, later? Thanks.*


The hppd started shorty after some strong lsd experiences, then some stress. As I recall, it's been around 5 years so hard to tell, but I do think that what I consider DP to have started around the same time. It's just that, at the time, the most obvious symptoms to translate to descriptions were visual, like objects warping, so I looked for answers there, found hppd, figured that's what it was, then just grouped everything under that. It wasn't until a few years later after looking around that I started to think that some of the other perceptual changes fit the definition of dissociation more.


----------



## Guest

gill said:


> The hppd started shorty after some strong lsd experiences, then some stress. As I recall, it's been around 5 years so hard to tell, but I do think that what I consider DP to have started around the same time. It's just that, at the time, the most obvious symptoms to translate to descriptions were visual, like objects warping, so I looked for answers there, found hppd, figured that's what it was, then just grouped everything under that. It wasn't until a few years later after looking around that I started to think that some of the other perceptual changes fit the definition of dissociation more.


Interesting. So you feel you have 2 disorders, HPPD and DP ... please never take LSD again!
Take Care, thanks.


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## addd

I have a lot of visual problems mentioned in this topic, here is the list of them (starting from the worst):
- thousands of bright (or sometimes dark) dots moving rapidly when looking on sky or other bright surfaces (like LCD screen at night)
- trails or ghosts, and something like lower frequency of vision (I often see in frames)
- double vision, only when there is contrast, for example white text on dark background I see a copy over it
- floaters
- afterimages, when I watch TV in dark room and rapidly move my eyes I see frames which slowly disappear
- visual snow
- sometimes when I move my eyes I'm losing my vision for a few milliseconds

I don't know what the cause of this, I hope its caused by panic attacks, which started after smoking marijuana, but I think these visual things started developing before anxiety and DP.


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## diamonds&rust

addd said:


> I have a lot of visual problems mentioned in this topic, here is the list of them (starting from the worst):
> - thousands of bright (or sometimes dark) dots moving rapidly when looking on sky or other bright surfaces (like LCD screen at night)
> - trails or ghosts, and something like lower frequency of vision (I often see in frames)
> - double vision, only when there is contrast, for example white text on dark background I see a copy over it
> - floaters
> - afterimages, when I watch TV in dark room and rapidly move my eyes I see frames which slowly disappear
> - visual snow
> - sometimes when I move my eyes I'm losing my vision for a few milliseconds
> 
> I don't know what the cause of this, I hope its caused by panic attacks, which started after smoking marijuana, but I think these visual things started developing before anxiety and DP.


I see little moving dots too. They are always bright if I see them against the sky or other light surface, or in a room. When my sister is around, I sometimes start seeing hundreds, if not thousands dots moving very rapidly between and around her and me, and their colour varies from white to black. They are so noticeable to me that it's hard to believe she doesn't see them. I've been thinking about it and perhaps it is because we shared the same experiences in our childhood family, maybe seeing those dots is a manifestation of our special connection to me. Their movement always seems logical, but I don't understand the logic.

My another unusual visual phenomenon are cloud-like moving colours that I sometimes see when I'm physically and mentally relaxed. I enjoy watching them. They are mostly violet, blue, pink and light green, sometimes yellow and white. Different colours have different ways of moving, and they also give me sensation of something happening in my energy.

The third kind of "hallucination" that I get easily is seeing movement where there is no movement. Sometimes vertical lines (like corners, edges of doors etc.) seem to tremble. Related to this, if I stare at a small picture of someone's face for 30-40 seconds, it starts to move and I see all kinds of expressions and feelings on it. I noticed this first after my mum died, and I was looking at her photo on the table. Later I realized that the same thing can happen with other photos too. It's like my own private animation.

These things aren't related to drugs, but I'm more prone to see the moving face thing when I'm tired, and the colourful lights when I'm well-rested.


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## addd

addd said:


> I have a lot of visual problems mentioned in this topic, here is the list of them (starting from the worst):
> - thousands of bright (or sometimes dark) dots moving rapidly when looking on sky or other bright surfaces (like LCD screen at night)
> - trails or ghosts, and something like lower frequency of vision (I often see in frames)
> - double vision, only when there is contrast, for example white text on dark background I see a copy over it
> - floaters
> - afterimages, when I watch TV in dark room and rapidly move my eyes I see frames which slowly disappear
> - visual snow
> - sometimes when I move my eyes I'm losing my vision for a few milliseconds
> 
> I don't know what the cause of this, I hope its caused by panic attacks, which started after smoking marijuana, but I think these visual things started developing before anxiety and DP.


I found this interesting, as it could be explanation for bad vision after smoking weed:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8971741
So, marijuana inhibits dopaminergic transmission in retina, like in Parkinson's disease.
Probably I had too much THC in my retina so it destroyed dopamine receptor's, or made it less sensitive.
I can now stop thinking about progressing SM, lyme etc.
Maybe I should try speed which is dopamine agonist, and see what will happen with my vision, but I really don't want to do it.


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## Visual

addd said:


> I found this interesting, as it could be explanation for bad vision after smoking weed:
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8971741
> So, marijuana inhibits dopaminergic transmission in retina, like in Parkinson's disease.
> Probably I had too much THC in my retina so it destroyed dopamine receptor's, or made it less sensitive.
> I can now stop thinking about progressing SM, lyme etc.
> Maybe I should try speed which is dopamine agonist, and see what will happen with my vision, but I really don't want to do it.


Thank you for the link - yet another piece of evidence.

D2 deficiency/malfunction in the retina was the first thing that put me onto researching Parkinson's and its treatment.

As I've blatted on throughout the forum, dopamine agonists greatly improved visual contrast, 3D perception and slow-frames. I would encourage working with a doctor and trying low doses of these agonists. I would discourage speed or other recreational drugs. While there is research in medical use of many of these (and no doubt there can be some beneficial dose/use), it might be safer to avoid them.

Most recreation drug affect dopamine directly or indirectly (weed, LSD, opioids, cocaine, NMDA, etc.). During the 'high', these pathways are altered. As the drug wares off, the pathways usually return to normal, but not always. The larger the dose, the more problems that may develop.

For one, the brain is a learning machine so these altered states/pathways start to get trained/programmed. Furthermore, when overloaded, they may get injured - usually from excitotoxicity from hyperactivity. There are several mechanism involved - See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excitotoxicity

I would recommend you start with supplements (if you haven't already). Glutathione is one of the body's most important chemicals for cleaning up intermediate metabolites (biggest excitotoxicity issue). Then the B12, GPC and MSM routine mentioned elsewhere. Hope this helps.

Have you tried any medications or seen any doctors for this problem?


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## addd

It's nearly one year since last time I smoked weed so I think I don't need any cleanup.
When my vision problems started I had my eyes examined using ophthalmoscope and everything was fine, maybe I should check it again.
I take Centrum multivitamin/multimineral supplement, omega-3 fat acids and lecithin, and it still doesn't improve much.
I believe that what I have is HPPD from mostly marijuana (more than 50 experiences in half of year), DXM(4-5 times) or 2C-E (2 times, but that was after my visual issues).

I didn't take any drugs for this, I heard that valproic acid is good for visual snow.


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## Visual

Spoke to a vision doctor recently about seeing in frames. He said seeing trails is more common than frames but both are dopamine problems.


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## nabber

I think it's interesting that a lot of people who have non-drug induced DP/DR also see floaters, tracers, sparkles.. etc.. Over at hppdonline.com 
everyone talks about their floaters, trails, and they all think it's from their 'bad' lsd trips. I used to think my eyes were damaged from all the LSD
I took, but people here with non-drug induced DP/DR sometimes have 'hallucinogen persisting perception disorder'


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## googleeyes

I'm not usually one to revive such an old thread but... Has anyone made any progress in the visual environment? This is my most prominent set of symptoms and I believe, as Le Chat said, it is outside the scope of dp/dr.


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## peanut butter

I've had visual snow and afterimages as far as I can remember.

I can't say why they exist, but I had them way before I even triggered DP.

Nevertheless, as annoying as they may be they don't really lower my quality of life. At least it's not blindness. 
There are far more important things in life, in my opinion browsing visual snow forums and obsessing about after lights is just a way to distract yourself from life. That's why I read those fucking forums for many months until I realized life is too short. I know ton of people with visual snow who are living their life to the fullest with these things, without "DP".


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## googleeyes

mmrrlla said:


> I've had visual snow and afterimages as far as I can remember.
> 
> I can't say why they exist, but I had them way before I even triggered DP.
> 
> Nevertheless, as annoying as they may be they don't really lower my quality of life. At least it's not blindness.
> There are far more important things in life, in my opinion browsing visual snow forums and obsessing about after lights is just a way to distract yourself from life. That's why I read those fucking forums for many months until I realized life is too short. I know ton of people with visual snow who are living their life to the fullest with these things.


If it was just visual snow and after images I wouldn't pay them much attention either. Unfortunately, my visual symptoms are much more debilitating. I can't focus on words on a screen without them vibrating and moving around. Straight lines and patterns shimmer and flicker. Any sort of movement by my head is enough to trigger bouts of vertigo. I frequently misjudge distances and bump into thing. Dim lights create a smokey look in the room. The longer I attempt to hold my gaze, the more my focus goes crazy (in and out).

The only unsustainable treatment I have found is: If I am up for 20 or more hours it appears to subside somewhat.


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## peanut butter

Did you have those when you weren't dissociating anymore or only when you relapsed?


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## googleeyes

I had those when I wasn't dissociating anymore. Several months ago my only concerns were dizziness and visual symptoms. It's only since I came off of Cipralex(Lexapro) that the anxiety and depersonalization has started to come back.

However the dizziness, vision, anxiety, dp/dr all came on at the same time. (Ecstasy)

I think I may have more than one thing wrong with me, which is why it is so hard for me to escape from this hell hole.


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## yosemitedome

Cheah I'm getting the same thing really badly at the moment. SO bizarre, so bizarre. I searched out some symptoms, looked for them really hard, now I have them full on. I can't make it add up in my mind what so ever. Only drug linked to this experience is marijuana, and all reported cases of HPPD and marijuana are more along the lines on visual snow etc, which I don't have to any abnormal level. My symptoms mimic yours, yet these symptoms in relation to HPPD are linked to LSD, which I've NEVER even SEEN before.

So it is very very strange.


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## Daniel374628

I sometimes see a trail, but I've never done drugs it starting to cause serious anxiety because it'd freaking me out. I've never touched an illegal substances. I just have anxiety and derealization.


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## ClemXII

Does anyone here have any update regarding this issue?

I've had this for 2 years now, coming on suddenly. No drugs.

Started with me noticing a weird smear behind people moving their arms on a t.v show one night. I started noticing it with anything in motion in front of me as long as I'm not focused on it directly, so anything in the peripheral.

It looks like a ghostly translucent white extension of what ever the object is, extending off said object playing catch-up. It's extremely apparent with like my hand against a darker background with lights on, so a big contrast different. Very hard to see in the daytime but I suspect it is still there, just not as easily seen.

For a time I got used to it and didn't notice it much, but sadly it seems to have gotten worse as of late or possibly anxiety, tired eyes etc., are just making me mentally believe it is worse and causing me to focus on it. Tough to tell.


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