# A dark night of the soul



## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

*"A dark night of the soul causes the absolute destruction of that which is familiar and brings us comfort, of that which gives a reason to do the things that we do. We come to know the real meaning of feeling lost and alone in this landscape. We cannot see where to go, and we can no longer return to where we once had been. We are completely mired in confusion, abandonment, and feelings of hopelessness.*

*"We still move through our everyday existence, but with an overwhelming feeling of paralysis, of being unable to move through life even though we sense it moving all around us. Nor can we resort to imposed system of faith, for our soul demands that we learn to create our own beliefs and feel the rhythms of the earth. Religion offers nothing to us in this world since the dark night refuses to allow us to assume it to be truthful or accurate. There is no human thought "out there" that comes to our aid "in here." And we are surrounded by the darkness of what is no longer there."*

*Taken from: - *http://exploring-life.ca/2144/spiritual-landscape-of-aging-dark-night-of-the-soul-1/

Does anyone on here feel like this, or is it just me? I'm thinking I dont have DP/DR, never did infact. I feel like my harddrive has been wiped and that my identity is totally lost, never to return. What is communicated to me on this forum is that most of you, regardless of the anxiety symptoms, are still exactly the same person. My personality has changed, so have my habits, so have my viewpoints and so has my belief system. Can anyone on here say the same? Even the term "Dissociation" just does not cut it in my experience. It can't possibly begin to describe the bizarre nature of my perception of the world. To others, life is still the same. There is panic, anxiety and dissociation but there is also the sense that you as a PERSON are experiencing and suffering from it. For me, there is no such thing. I can't remember most of my time at school anymore. Can't remember my relationships with people I knew years ago, can't piece together chunks of my memory. It's like a lightning bolt struck it and it fell apart.

Does noone else feel like this is the most intense and significant thing that has ever happened to them?


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## nectarios82 (Sep 9, 2013)

www.spiritualemergence.org the dark night of the soul is meant to bring you closer to the divine by purging you of your worldly desires and wants. read "dark night of the soul" by saint john of the cross. its supposed to be a beautiful thing. like a metamorphosis. are you/ were you a spiritual person?


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## nectarios82 (Sep 9, 2013)

i dont trust eckert tolle


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## nectarios82 (Sep 9, 2013)

he claims to be "god"


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## nectarios82 (Sep 9, 2013)

*Extracts from The Dark Night of the Soul,by St. John of the Cross of the Order of Mount Carmel:*

*Extracts from The Stormy Search for the Self, by C.Grof and S. Grof:*

"The dark night is a certain inflowing of God into the soul which cleanses it of its ignorances and imperfections, habitual, natural and spiritual...

"O spiritual soul, when thou seest thy desire obscured, thy Will arid and constrained, and thy faculties incapable of any interior act, be not grieved at this but look upon it rather as a great good, for God is delivering thee from thyself, taking the matter out of thy hands; for however strenuously thou mayest exert thyself, thou will never do anything so faultlessly, perfectly, and secure as now -- because of the impurity and torpor of thy faculties -- when God, taking thee by the hand, is guiding thee in the dark as one that is blind, along a road ... and to an end thou knowest not, and whither thou couldst never travel by the help of thine own eyes and thine own feet, however strong thou mayest be...

"These trials are measured by the divine Will, and are proportioned to the imperfections, many or few, to be purged away; and also to the degree of union in love to which God intends to raise the soul; that is the measure of its humiliations both in their intensity and duration...

"... Together with the aridity and emptiness which it causes in the senses, it gives the soul an inclination and desire to be alone and in quietness, without being able to think of any particular thing or having the desire to do so.

"If those souls to whom this comes to pass knew how to be quiet at this time, and troubled not about performing any kind of action, whether inward or outward, neither had any anxiety about doing anything, then they would delicately experience this inward refreshment in that ease and freedom from care.

"So delicate is this refreshment that ordinarily, if a man have desire or care to experience it, he experience it not, for as I say, it does its work when the soul is most at ease and freest from care; it is like the air which, if one would close one's hand upon it, escapes...

"... All that we have here described comes to pass in the soul passively, without its doing or undoing anything of itself with respect to it. But in this connection it must be known that, when the good angel permits the devil to gain this advantage of assailing the soul with this spiritual horror, he does it to purify the soul and to prepare it by means of this spiritual vigil for some great spiritual favour and festival which he desires to grant it, for he never mortifies save to give life, nor humbles save to exalt, which comes to pass shortly afterwards. Then, according as was the dark and horrible purgation which the soul suffered, so is the fruition now granted it of a wondrous and delectable spiritual contemplation, sometimes so lofty that there is no language to describe it."

Extracts from The Dark Night of the Soul,by St. John of the Cross of the Order of Mount Carmel:

"During the existential crisis, one feels cut off from the deeper self, higher power, or God -- whatever one depends on beyond personal resources to provide strength and inspiration. The result is a most devastating kind of loneliness, a total and complete existential alienation that penetrates one's entire being ... This deep sense of isolation appears to be available to many human beings, regardless of their history, and is often a central ingredient of spiritual transformation. Irina Tweedy, a Russian woman who studied with a Sufi master in India, wrote in The Chasm of Fire:

"The Great Separation was here ... a peculiar, special feeling of utter loneliness ... it cannot be compared to any feeling of loneliness we all experience sometimes in our lives. All seems dark and lifeless. There is no purpose anywhere or in anything. No God to pray to. No hope. Nothing at all...

"This sense of extreme isolation is reflected in the desolate prayer of Jesus on the cross: "My God, my God. Why hast Thou forsaken me?" People who are lost in this place frequently cite the example of Christ's darkest hour in an attempt to explain the extent of this monumental feeling...

"The description of death and rebirth as a "dark night" comes from the writings of the great mystic St. John of the Cross. In an eloquent way, he describes the dark night as a long period of unknowing, loss, and despair that must be traversed by spiritual seekers in order to empty and humble themselves enough to receive divine inspiration... Traditionally the dark night arises only after we have had some initial spiritual opening."

*St John of the Cross and the Dark Night of the Soulby Marie Gundersen*

"Only to the extent that man exposes himself over and over again to annihilation, can that which is indestructible arise within him. In this lies the dignity of daring... Only if we venture repeatedly through zones of annihilation can our contact with Divine Being, which is beyond annihilation, become firm and stable. The more a man learns wholeheartedly to confront the world which threatens him with isolation, the more are the depths of the Ground of Being revealed and the possibilities of new life and Becoming opened."



> I am writing this article to help clarify the difference between depression and the 'Dark Night of the Soul'. I am also attempting to give readers a brief introduction to the stages of spiritual transformation described by St John of the Cross in his writings. St John of the Cross (Juan de Yepes) was a sixteenth century Spanish mystic, poet and Doctor of the Church.
> 
> I have noticed that the expression the 'Dark Night of the Soul' is often used incorrectly to describe an emotional/mental experience of depression. However, the term the 'Dark Night of the Soul' originated from St John of the Cross' poem "The Dark Night" and depicts the soul's spiritual journey through a process of purification to union with God. The stanzas of this poem are expounded on and include commentaries in the book "The Dark Night of the Soul".
> 
> ...


*A Personal Journey into the Dark Night of the Soulby Trish L'Henaff*



> My head feels like it's heating up, as if electrical currents are rushing through it. The blood running through my veins feels cold. I feel confusion and panic and fear set in. What's going on? I've experienced these symptoms before but this time feels like the first time; it always does. The feeling of powerlessness, of being out of control, is overwhelming. There must be something wrong with me is the thought spinning round in my head. What can I do? This melting down sensation creeps up on me without warning. Like entering a dark room, the darkness is all encompassing.
> 
> Reality is suddenly changed and nothing makes sense as it used to. I don't know how to relate to myself or to those around me. I feel like a zombie and the feeling of annihilation is terrifying. I feel alone and abandoned. Everything appears so very different, almost like landing on a strange planet or like the earth has somehow shifted as in an earthquake. I try to shuffle, re-arrange or readjust what now appears all so foreign, but to no avail, as I struggle to know how to be and what to do. I feel as though I've lost my sense of purpose and direction, as if I've lost all control of my life. I actually feel like I'm dying. Not physically, but my soul feels like it's being hollowed out, like everything within me is being scooped up and evacuated.
> 
> ...


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## nectarios82 (Sep 9, 2013)

yeah maybe


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## seafoamwaves (Sep 20, 2013)

Dude you have DP/DR calm down. Stress impairs your memory.


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Eckhart Tolle doesn't claim to be god.... I have no idea where you drew that conclusion from, makes no sense.



Selig said:


> Yes I do, because it is a turning point in my life. I'm becoming a person who is integrated with their emotions and self for the first time in my life.
> 
> I never felt like my own person to begin with. My personality has always been fluid to adhere to whatever situation garnered me the most safety or love from people. I mean, I don't see why it's unusual DP/DR would have impacted you this way. It literally affects the way you interact with reality, so those types of changes seem like be a normal response IMO.


So Selig, you are growing and developing as a human being, which is where I want to be. For me, it feels like I am slowly disappearing more and more into nothingness and emptiness... see the difference?


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

seafoamwaves said:


> Dude you have DP/DR calm down. Stress impairs your memory.


But do I really? I have almost nothing in common with most of the stories on this site. I definitely didn't get it through weed or any other rec drug, infact up until recently i still routinely did coke fairly consistently while travelling.

I don't question if everything is real constantly and I don't have obsessive thought processes either..

The only time I have felt really depersonalized to the extent where I didn't recognise my own reflection properly, was when I actually going towards the weird emotional energy in my body. So I raged for like 30 minutes and next thing I know, I don't see myself as 'me'.

What gives?


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Nectarios, this is interesting: -

"Together with the aridity and emptiness which it causes in the senses, it gives the soul an inclination and desire to be alone and in quietness, without being able to think of any particular thing or having the desire to do so."

I do feel like my sense perceptions are very dry and weak. Before, life would be a vibrant thing full of different smells, sights, sounds etc.

Now... life is just all the same, regardless of where I am. I can't fully take in my surroundings at all. My senses are definitely shrouded in some way. Sense of smell is certainly weaker for example.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2013)

This is interesting, but it was always my understanding that "The Dark Night" was a religious individual's inability to connect with God. Mother Theresa experienced this for 48 years. I read her book *Come Be My Light *where despite her being a nun, later a Saint, she confessed in letters to a friend that she had lost her connection with God. I don't recall if she ever reconnected with her Faith before her death.

I am not a spiritual person. My parents were atheists. But I always respect the faith of others. Not too fond of organized religion or fundamentalism. Also know that for those with Faith struggling with any illness can find tremendous strength in their faith.

What is interesing is how we interpret this. It can also be seen as depression. Winston Churchill called it "The Black Dog." William Styron wrote a marvellous book, *Darkness Visible* -- but these were not about what I interpret here as purely a spiritual journey, but the misery of clinical depression. Abraham Lincoln was also frequently depressed.

*Also, there is a book, Collision With The Infinite: A Life Beyond The Personal Self by Suzanne Segal. She had terrible chronic DP. She wrote this book about dealing with it a a purely spiritual crisis. I hightly recommend it as well. I'll find the link.*

There have been more studies on spirituality, lack thereof, and depression. Regardless, it's an intersting topic.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20940268

*Transcultural Psychiatry. 2010 Sep;47(4):548-70*. doi: 10.1177/1363461510374899.
*The Dark Night of the Soul: causes and resolution of emotional distress among contemplative nuns.*
Durà-Vilà G, Dein S, Littlewood R, Leavey G.
Source
Academic Unit of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, Imperial College London, London, UK. [email protected]

*Abstract*
An ethnographic study was conducted in the Spanish Monastery of Santa Mónica whose community consists of ten contemplative Augustinian nuns.

Through participant observation and interviews the stresses encountered by the nuns and the coping strategies they deployed are explored in depth. It was found that *symptoms that otherwise might have been described as evidence of a depressive episode were understood by the nuns within the framework of the so-called Dark Night of the Soul narrative:* an active process of transforming emotional distress into a process of self-reflection, attribution of religious meaning and spiritual growth.

We conclude by discussing the clinical implications of this religious narrative, highlighting the importance of incorporating existential issues into clinical practice.
PMID:
20940268
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
--------------------------------------------------

For some, such as myself, finding God, or fearing I have lost contact with God is not and never has been a concern of mine, though I attend Church and Synagogue with friends. But I think for those who are already spiritual beings, depression, DP/DR, anxiety, and medical illneses can make someone feel they have "been abandoned by God."

I see I have learned from my struggles, and I have noted changes and progress over time with great effort. But I can't equate this with the experience of St. John of the Cross or Mother Theresa. I also cannot explain my mother's atheism which she actually remembered even when she had dementia and couldn't even remember who she was. Very strange.

It's great that NAMI now offers FaithNet which acknolwedges that Faith (of any religion) is important to many trying to claw their way out of mental illness. For many it is critical to the therapist they choose -- many of whom who have a strong sense of the spiritual and are willing to incorporate it into therapy.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2013)

Note, these books might trouble some people, and take them back into existential thinking. This did not happen to me. I think they would have when I was younger.

*Collision With The Infinite* by Suzanne Segal <--------- this deals STRICTLY with DP/DR. Must read.
http://www.amazon.com/Collision-Infinite-Life-Beyond-Personal/dp/1884997279/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380304300&sr=1-1&keywords=collision+with+the+infinite


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## nectarios82 (Sep 9, 2013)

yea. i feel mine is a combination of dark night of the soul and dp/dr. its good to have faith. i too also feel abandoned by god. that i am being made into "nothingness" and "emptiness". but sometimes he has to break us before he makes us... form what i have read, mother theresa found god again right before her death.


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## nectarios82 (Sep 9, 2013)

OOOHHHHH dont let people read that "Experience of no self" its bad that u even posted that. you should take it down , it will mess with peoples heads BAAD. you should seriously take it down. it messed me up. took me a while to recover form that NONSENSE


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2013)

I deleted it. IDK, some people find comfort in such books, others don't.


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## Francis (Sep 17, 2013)

The dark tea time of the soul, as Douglas Adams put it. Very apt


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2013)

Midnight said:


> But do I really? I have almost nothing in common with most of the stories on this site. I definitely didn't get it through weed or any other rec drug, infact up until recently i still routinely did coke fairly consistently while travelling.
> 
> I don't question if everything is real constantly and I don't have obsessive thought processes either..
> 
> ...


I haven't heard anything from you that isn't typical of DP/DR; most people get over the existential thinking, and a lot of us didn't get DP/DR from drugs. Just because you don;t have every symptom doesn't mean it isn't DP/DR. The biggest barrier to your recovery right now is that you can't accept that you don't have something more tragic, complex and extreme then DP/DR, so you won't accept any solutions given to you because there to simple and obvious by comparison. Most of what your describing is the emotional numbness that is typical of DP/DR, and weird sensations are just a part of the detachment.

If you want to recover, you need to accept that you have DP/DR and stop obsessing over and monitoring the symptoms. Your really standing in your own way as far as recovering goes.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2013)

Oh, this is interesting. I was trying to remember Segal's book ... someone noted in the comments, and THIS is fascinating:

Comment from one reader of the book (on amazon):



> " ... the previous reviewer that this book offers an interesting description of the spiritual experience of having "no-self" but isn't a particularly inspiring read. What was confusing though is that in the introduction we're asked to transcend viewing Suzanne's experiences pathologically,* but in the epilogue she herself sees that she has been dissociated due to childhood sexual abuse.* Why ask us to suspend a pathological interpretation only to invite us back to that interpretation at the end?"


---------------------------------

So we are still left with so many questions. She was abused, she had chronic DP/DR. She saw it and tried to work through it seeing it as spiritual enlightenment, but in the end (and even in the beginning of the book) goes into a good bit of detail that she was abused. I DO remember being confused by this. Also, sadly, she died of a brain tumor. I don't think that had ANY relation to her having DP/DR ... seems it was some time after the book was published.

We indeed approach challenges from varying perspectives. I see nothing wrong with that. And again, what works for you -- Great!

And yes, I love "the dark tea time of the soul." LOL. Very poetic.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2013)

Susto said:


> I believe that if you identify with the Dark Night of the Soul you have a great framework to work with and recover, same if you identify with DP/DR. I personally believe identifying with DP is more dangerous because the framework to base recovery is very logical and materialistic and people get very confused (which is clear in the forum), whereas in the Dark Night all that is required is Intuition, faith, simplicity, compassion - Much more powerful framework to work with IMO _ It varies from peoples preference, personality, background, culture, etc


I think it's more important that people get straight forward, concrete and intuitive information and logical advice, as opposed to something like the dark night of the soul that's difficult for most people to understand, digest, and is very open to interpretation, which makes it incredibly confusing and hard to apply. You see the dark night of the soul as simple and intuitive because you immerse yourself in such things often, but for people who don't engage in any sort of spirituality it's alien and hard to comprehend.


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

Antimony said:


> I think it's more important that people get straight forward, concrete and intuitive information and logical advice, as opposed to something like the dark night of the soul that's difficult for most people to understand, digest, and is very open to interpretation, which makes it incredibly confusing and hard to apply.


Well, 'don't obsess about dp' is not a very concrete and straight forward piece of advice to be honest. I don't even understand what that means. As far as I can see I'm not obsessing about it. I have a blank mind. How can you obsess about something with a blank mind, or while you are in a void?

I look at descriptions of the dark night of the soul and I identify with it in more concrete ways than a traditional DP/DR description to be honest. The way they talk about aridity and the smothering of the senses really speaks to me on a personal level.. but thats just me I suppose.



Antimony said:


> I haven't heard anything from you that isn't typical of DP/DR; most people get over the existential thinking, and a lot of us didn't get DP/DR from drugs. Just because you don;t have every symptom doesn't mean it isn't DP/DR. The biggest barrier to your recovery right now is that you can't accept that you don't have something more tragic, complex and extreme then DP/DR, so you won't accept any solutions given to you because there to simple and obvious by comparison.


It feels tragic, complex and extreme, but really the reason I grapple with accepting it is because the complaints people come here with are nothing like my own, for the most part...

I went on the chat room the other day for the first time and was struck by the fact that there were people on there who were genuinely freaking out at the time of writing, in clear states of panic and the like.

I. am. not. like. them.... so you see.. sometimes I feel like looking elsewhere for solutions.

Also, unexplained bizzarre feelings like my balance being off and pressure around the face and head only ever on one side of my body doesn't sound like 'anxiety'... I believe that is far too simplistic a diagnosis.



Antimony said:


> If you want to recover, you need to accept that you have DP/DR and stop obsessing over and monitoring the symptoms. Your really standing in your own way as far as recovering goes.


I don't get how I'm standing in my own way though.... I don't want to live like this! I'm not trying to make it happen!


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2013)

Midnight said:


> Well, 'don't obsess about dp' is not a very concrete and straight forward piece of advice to be honest. I don't even understand what that means. As far as I can see I'm not obsessing about it. I have a blank mind. How can you obsess about something with a blank mind, or while you are in a void?
> 
> I look at descriptions of the dark night of the soul and I identify with it in more concrete ways than a traditional DP/DR description to be honest. The way they talk about aridity and the smothering of the senses really speaks to me on a personal level.. but thats just me I suppose.
> 
> ...


I mean stop acknowledging it, it's something that take practice and determination, but in time it's easy to get through the day without ever thinking about the sensations. You have to get out of the habit of checking in in the symptoms; if its there or not don't let it bother you, like I said this takes a lot of practice and the right mind set. After a while, you get to see how little of an impact it makes on day to day life. I thought the whole blank mind took away my ability to create for writing and drawing, but once I moved past that belief I found that those abilities were entirely intact. Its emotional reasoning, your mind feels blank so you act like it is, but the reality is anything but that. If you really had a blank mind you wouldn't be able to type as well as you are, for example.

Every body starts off in that state of panic,but they eventually calm down, your just past the panicking stage.

I had the same pressure in my head and balance issues for a while, but they went away almost entirely once I stopped letting the symptoms of DP/DR stress me out so much. It was bad enough in the beginning that I was convinced I had a serious sinus infection, but that wasn't it, it was just stress.

We color everything we sense with our emotions, so if you have emotional numbness things simply won't feel as sharp. It's like trying to eat with your nose stuffed up, nothing tastes good because your taste is dependent in part on your sense of smell.

And when I say your standing in your own way, I mean that recovery takes the right attitude, and your lacking it. You need to be confident that you can recover, and you need to have positive out look for each day, and not let the symptoms bother you. I experience the same emotional numbness, but I decided it wasn't going to spoil my life, so I learned to not let it bother and it hasn't impacted me since.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2013)

Susto said:


> Antimony your not getting the essence of my message, I personally have identified much more with the Dark Night and I have the same background of most people here. I was kind of an atheist before DP and was very skpetical, logical and scientific guy. My mother side of the family is religous, they follow Spiritism, but I when I was around 11 I started studying a lot of science and changed my view of life, I didnt give a #### about faith or God or spirituality. I am analitical guy so I like to analise peoples mind, and when DP came I thought I had fucked up my mind (or that genetics and drugs caused my brain to be fucked up). All spiritual and intuitive was lost for me. I wanted the analical and scientific brain chemical/fight or flight response framework to base my recovery on - But luckly I started having suicidal thoughts, constant panic attacks and desperation, and that lead me to go to the spiritual and intuitive framework again - So for me personally, Identifying with a Dark Night of the Soul has been much more beneficial than if I had been working my recovery on trying to cure DP.


You frustrate me because you try and act unbiased between a scientific and spiritual approach, but your negative view of the scientific/psychological approach is obvious. When you give a side by side comparison of them you use off-putting words like materialistic and reductionist to describe the psychological side, but use attractive words like compassion and intuitive to describe spirituality. Next to each other, that makes the western scientific approach look like crap in comparison to spirituality. I view the world in a scientific way, and the way you talk about it gives the impression of it being cold and undesirable, and I take offense to that.

I used to think of DP as all chemicals and flight-fight, and it helped me, but it stopped being enough to jump the hurdles, so I had to find something more. I went with the psychological sciences because they were grounded in reality, and thus very straight forward and easy to exploit in my recovery. At the same time spirituality was a puzzle that needed to be solved before any benefit could be taken from it. The choice was obvious.


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