# Reached the "magic" 500 hundred



## Guest

I made a proomise that the day I reach five hundred posts Ill leave and never return.

Last time I tried to leave I almost died the first 24 hours from head injury so wish me luck

I appreciate all help and seriously just read the "road to recovery" & "regain reality" forums ALL answers to cure this shit is in there.
You wont find any new therapy or "magic cures" by staying here sharing symptoms 1 + 1 will always be 2. even if ur mentally retarded and can't percieve or UNDERSTAND it its still 2. A fact
Same way REALity will ALWAYS be real even if u percieve it differently.
People will ALWAYS be real no matter how DEAD they seem to you because ur personally feelin dead
There will never be a God even if you "PERCIEVE IT" or hallucinate it to be so. This is waste of life... Your life. The only one youll ever have.
Don't try to rob nature for it's beauty and facts..

By this I mean you will eventually DIE, don't die regretting your life.
No one is out to harm you or do you wrong so stop worrying.
No need to DWELL on and feed DP by hanging out in this forum.

GoodLuck

My best wishes to allllllllllll


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## Guest

I only agree with what you said last about living for the day and that soon we will be dead.
However you percieve the world IS the world. There is no "standard" world which everyone see's the same. Its like the old if a tree falls and there is nobody to hear it does it make a noise. I guess you can imagine the world before dp/dr hit and imagine it to be that way.
The God comment is baseless. Some ppl see the world, see order and see God, others don't. You cannot dismiss it just by saying it.
Yeah people do always say the same stuff on the forum, but so what? I can discuss the symptoms 500 times and everytime I feel better because I know I'm not alone and others are fighting the same fight. 
I love hearing people who've got 100% better. I think even after I recover the stories of recovery will cheer me up.

Congrats on reaching 500 posts, I respect your opinion and I wish all the best for you in the future.


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## Guest

The order they see IS mother nature

Subjective perception of OBJECTIVE reality no questions asked if there WASNT a objective reality we wouldnt EXIST. PLAIN SIMPLE

Ofcorse the motherfuckn apple makes a sound put a motherfuckn microphone there if ur doubting reality

All philosophies concerning God Solipism Dualism DIED in the twentieth century when we proved the brain to the cause of mind aka SOUL.

Listen if you trust ur thought s ho can make up flying people ith ings unicorns etc more than proof / evidence and feel that ur so important to the universe that it couldnt exist without you go on and stay DP/DRed for life GL


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## Guest

Yes but the point is who created mother nature, where did the order come from, how is everything so perfectly balanced, etc. What is the start point. This is an argument neither of us can win. Either you have faith or you don't. Besides which this is not a religious forum. It is an old argument. I suppose we'll both find out when we die.
Btw catagorically denying God is the same kind of faith as it takes to accept God. Only agnostics are logical, until they find the evidence or faith to move to either side.

Yes it will make sound waves, but you're missing the whole depth of the saying. The point is we all interpret stuff differently. Everyone has a different view of the world. Again there are arguments for both. You can say that the world is constant or you can say that the observer makes the world what it is. This century we have realised the importance of the observer. Once again this is not a physics forum.

The brain has never been proven to be the soul. Hell we don't even know how the brain works so saying we know what the brain does or does not do is reaching.

Yeah making up flying ppl etc. is wrong I agree, but thats imagining new things. I guess there is a line of normality.


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## Guest

THERE IS NO IMPORTANCE OF THE OBSERVER.

A few million years ago there was no CONSCIOUS observer, therefore: humans mean NADA ZERO NONE to the world except our egoism kills it.

Read upon SERIOUS quantum physics ALL are atheist.
Read upon evolution see how nature became order
Read about and STUDY all religions like I have and ull see their ALL contradictionaire and BULLSHIT

Agnostics are people who DON'T care if there is a God cause obviously we dont find him.
If they studied they'd become atheists they just dont give a shit

"The brain has never been proven to be the soul. Hell we don't even know how the brain works so saying we know what the brain does or does not do is reaching. "

LOL ur livin in the 18th century man we know A LOT read up on neuroscience man


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## Guest

>>THERE IS NO IMPORTANCE OF THE OBSERVER.

Science would disagree.

>>Read upon SERIOUS quantum physics ALL are atheist.

Niels Bohr - Jewish
Albert Einstein - Agnostic

Those are 2 huge names and neither was an athiest, so much for them ALL being athiest.

>>Read upon evolution see how nature became order

I have read but I do not see how this stops there being a creator.

>>Read about and STUDY all religions like I have and ull see their ALL >>contradictionaire and BULLSHIT

You have not studied all religions, that would take more than a lifetime.

>>Agnostics are people who DON'T care if there is a God cause obviously >>we dont find him. 
>>If they studied they'd become atheists they just dont give a shit

Einstein studied all his life but famously conceded he was an Agnostic since he could not disprove God existed.

>>LOL ur livin in the 18th century man we know A LOT read up on >>neuroscience man

We are still learning, we do not know how the mind works, we do not know why we are conscious, we do not even understand how something as simple as anesthetic works.
Before you paste something from "howstuffworks" we know why anesthetics numb but not the mechanism. That is a huge thing for something which is used on a regular basis in the world.


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## Guest

*IQ above 75 required to understand this reply*

LOL cmon man "howstuffworks"

True I have not bothered to study ALL the 13hundred religions cause most of them are homemade bullshit like scientology and other "make money scams"

THEY ARE ALL THE SAME BS

_
Consciousness

We exist because our genes need to replicate themselves. Evolution improves this process, it enables genes to survive and be passed on.

?We are survival machines ? robot vehicles blindly programmed to preserve the selfish molecules known as genes? (The Selfish Gene)

While Dawkins does not deal with the concept of the soul he looks instead at the idea of consciousness. If, as he claims, we are nothing but carriers for DNA, how is the sense of self, of individuality, that something which makes us us to be explained? Before we reject completely the idea of a soul, we must first be convinced that this sense is not based in the supernatural but in the ?bytes of digital information?

For Dawkins, a body is a colony of cells, better described as a colony of genes.

* Genes want to be replicated
* Genes find that they replicate more easily and efficiently if they work together, in this way what began as a single celled organism evolves into the multi celled organism.
* This is the pattern of evolution, genes working together more and more, evolving into many celled organisms

?Colonies of genes, they may be; in their behaviour, bodies have undeniably acquired an individuality of their own. An animal moves as a co-ordinated whole, as a unit. Subjectively I feel like a unit, not a colony. This is to be expected. Selection has favoured genes which co-operate with others. In the fierce struggle to eat other survival machines and to avoid being eaten, there must have been a premium on central coordination rather than anarchy within the communal body.? (The Selfish Gene)

Dawkins addresses this feeling of individuality within each human by arguing that this is because our genes are working together. We cannot perceive ourselves as a colony but as a whole. This working together of our genes is based on the desire for survival of those genes.
The development of consciousness

* If an act has bad results the animal will not repeat it
* If an act has good results the animal will repeat it
* Ultimately the colony of genes needs a central control in order for it to function so the colony develops the brain
* Animals evolve so behaviour is no longer trial and error but they develop the capacity to simulate the future, to predict the results of certain action. This enables them to choose how to behave.

?Consciousness arises when the brain?s simulation of the world becomes so complete that it must include a model of itself? (The Selfish Gene)

* So as the genetic model becomes more complex it begins to think about itself as an individual and considers the consequences of its own actions. IE: IT BECOMES SELF AWARE

It could be argued then that the soul is nothing more than a collection of genes so developed that they have become aware of themselves as a whole.

* Dawkins goes on with this line of thought, eventually giving this ?consciousness? more importance than the DNA itself.

?Whatever philosophical problems with consciousness, for the purposes of this story it can be thought of as the culmination of an evolutionary trend towards the emancipation of survival machines as executive decision takers from their ultimate masters, the genes. Not only are brains in charge of the day to day running of survival machine affairs, they have also acquired the ability to predict the future and act accordingly, they even have the power to rebel against the dictates of the genes, for instance in refusing to have as many children as they are able to. In this respect man is a very special case.? (The Selfish Gene)
Genes and Memes

Dawkins claims that now that the consciousness has evolved, the genes? need for replication is no longer the driving force behind contemporary evolution. There is a new replicator.

* The evolution of the brain and its ability to predict events and to rebel against the genes has enabled human culture to develop
* Dawkins calls this human culture ?replicator? a MEME
* Memes are tunes, catchphrases, quotes, teachings, they are heard, lodge in the brain and the brain then imitates them
* The meme can be seen as a parasitic structure lodged in the brain

Eg: a song heard on the radio, the song is changed and developed slightly with every repetition of it. (Chinese whispers)

* This ongoing continuation and development is now the driving force behind evolution

?When we die there are 2 things we can leave behind us: genes and memes. We were built as gene machines, created to pass on our genes, but that aspect of us will be forgotten in 3 generations. Your child, even your grandchild may bear a passing resemblance to you, perhaps in a talent for music, in the colour of her hair. But as each generation passes the contribution of your genes is halved. It does not take long to reach negligible proportions. Our genes may be immortal but the collection of genes which is anyone of us, is bound to crumble away. Elizabeth II is a direct descendent of Will the Conqueror yet is is quite probable that she bears not a single one of the old king?s genes. We should seek immortality in reproduction but if you contribute to the world?s culture, if you have a good idea, or compose a tune, invent a sparking plug, write a poem, it may live on intact, long after your genes have dissolved in the common pool.?

The body evolved as a means of DNA survival and continues as a means of culture survival, directly due to the development of individual consciousness. Is this consciousness what is referred to by others as the SOUL??_

Stop using the "EINSTEIN SAID THERE WAS A GOD" wannabe reassurance
Einstein was a humanist PANTHEIST who considered the *NATURAL LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE * as "GOD".
He denied soul and ALLLL religions

To quote him:
"If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism.? Albert Einstein "
Why ? because buddhism rejects god soul angels after life

Its more of a philosophy than a religion and its wrong too its been proven by neuro scientists

True we cant prove unicorns, trolls, elfs , spaghetti monster pink fuckn elephants doesnt exist but we can see where the myth started IN THE MIND OF SOME PERSONS ...

Science DOES NOT say the world need observes if that was true we wouldnt be here, shit ur stupid

Since ur so sure we got a soul

Read this and debunk it for me or stfu

_
When I was a child, I was an atheist and only believed in what I could see and touch. By age 19 I started to believe in the existence of souls and reincarnation as a result of my exposure to a number of famous Indian yogis and the majestic J. Krishnamurti, who once claimed to have remembered all of his past lives. At age 21 my belief in soul was dramatically reinforced by explosive experiences with Acharya Rajneesh, later known as Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh and Osho. I never believed in any "God," but for 35 years I lived under the shadow of the great meditation masters and was fairly certain that we all possessed souls that would survive our physical death. [see photo of J. Krishnamurti * This essay was written in 2004]

Unlike Hindus, most Buddhists believe in some mysterious and poorly defined soulless form of personal karma which survives death. I never believed in the Buddhist concept of immortal personal karma without soul, because when you reject soul you lose the only credible vehicle for the transference of karma from one lifetime to the next. To my mind, if there is no soul then there is no possibility of immortal personal karma and reincarnation.

When I met Acharya Rajneesh in 1970, he not only spoke of souls and reincarnation, but also claimed to have the power of astral projection. I believed his claim because of what I thought were authentic experiences I had with this "master" astrally projecting himself, not just into my room, but into my body while he was physically several miles away. After reading Matthew Alper's book, The "God" Part of the Brain, I wonder if those amazing experiences were really what I thought they were. Alper summarizes the latest scientific research into how the human brain functions while having religious experiences. In this essay I have added additional neurological data obtained from medical journals and my own observations and theories regarding several of the main points of Alper's book.

Medical research has shown that if you stimulate certain areas of the brain with a small electric current, you can give people the experience of spiritual visitation. You may feel that Jesus is touching your heart, or that the soul of a dead relative is near you. There is no evidence to support a belief in authentic soul travel, however, as all studies indicate that consciousness only exists in the brain cells which create it. You cannot remove consciousness from the physical body because consciousness is a physical phenomena created by chemistry, just as a firefly's light is created by chemical reactions. That is why you can turn consciousness on or off by injecting a person with drugs to wake them up or to put them to sleep.

Near death experiences and even certain drugs, such as ketamine and sodium pentothal, can give you the feeling of being outside of your body, but researchers say that is just an illusion of the holographic nature of the human brain. When neural communications between the body and brain are reduced, the brain is free to project your sense of self anywhere it chooses, and this can happen while under partial anesthesia, while partially asleep, or even during the preliminary (and reversible) stages of death. Prolonged fasting and isolation can produce hallucinations and distortions of reality as well, and such ascetic practices are a major source of the Asian myths of astral projection.

While true astral projection may be impossible, there is credible scientific theory to suggest that telepathic communication is possible between human beings. The human brain is an organic electrochemical computer so complex that no existing silicon based supercomputer can approach its capabilities. [see Mouse brain simulated on computer ] Think of all the things your relatively simple cell phone can do. There is plenty of computer power in the human brain to imagine that some portion of its circuitry could be allocated to broadcasting and receiving messages, or at least sensing basic electromagnetic radiation from other human brains. Such an ability would have obvious survival value for the species, and thus would be understandable in terms of evolution and survival of the fittest. A rudimentary telepathic communicative ability may be the reason disciples feel the presence of their spiritual teachers so strongly. [see scans prove meditation alters the brain]

The brain is the most metabolically active human organ, and requires a steady supply of oxygen and glucose as fuel. Although the brain represents less than 2% of the body's mass, it utilizes 20% of the body's oxygen consumption and 15% of its cardiac output. Thus, the brain produces an extraordinary amount of energy in relationship to the rest of the body. The entire human body uses chemical reactions to produce both mechanical movements and electrical currents that flows through all our living cells. The brain acts as both an analog and a digital computer, and the DNA code which creates it is digital. The average human brain contains approximately 100 billion neurons connected by approximately 50 trillion synapses. It is therefore not difficult to imagine that this fantastically complex organic device could have mysterious abilities beyond our current level of understanding.

Perhaps what I thought was astral projection was simply Rajneesh concentrating on me, sending me his supermental energy long distance. That powerful jolt of energy may have caused my brain to supply the added illusion of personal visitation on top of the strong telepathic transmission. There is no doubt that Rajneesh had tremendous mental powers, but was that power really supernatural or just a product of his own unique brain structure and meditative skill?

If you inject any human being with enough sedative, enlightened or not, they will become unconsciousness. If you damage certain areas of the brain you can drastically alter human behavior. You can turn a conservative bank president into a garbage eating bum just by killing off some of the brain cells that contain the biocomputer program for his personality. If you damage other areas of the brain, you can erase all memory.

If consciousness, personality, and memory are all physical phenomena of brain cells, then when your brain dies there is nothing left of your individual identity. Your permanent identity of time-energy-space (see The TES Hypothesis) continues unharmed, but there is no soul, no reincarnation, and no Buddhist transference of personal karma. If this is true, it means that all of the major world religions are wrong. It also means that we all achieve "moksha" (liberation) at the time of our death because there is no personal cycle of birth and death to escape from, and no magical afterlife. You are born once and you die once, and you will never come back.

One theory states that we have souls and/or personal karma which transmigrates from one life to the next, and another theory states that nothing survives death and only DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid) and the will of the living determines the future of our species. Which theory is correct? I once believed in reincarnation with a high level of certainty. After many years of seeing the rampant corruption of gurus, "enlightened" or not, the idiocy of disciples, cults, and organized religion, and with the new scientific evidence in hand, I find the soul-reincarnation-karma theory far less plausible.

You do not have to believe in anything supernatural to believe in cosmic consciousness (satori). Anyone can take the drug psilocybin and get a dramatic imitation of the natural religious experience. Clinical research shows that our brains are built to have religious experiences. As time-energy-space is one singular phenomena, it is only natural that we occasionally experience the grand cosmic unity. I personally suspect that even animals have satoris, though they apparently have no ability to give it a name or understand its implications.

One of the most interesting concepts of Matthew Alper's book concerns the rise of self-consciousness in human animals and how knowledge of our impending death has affected our brains and even our DNA code. If you put a dog in front of a mirror, he will never figure out that he is looking at his own reflection. If you put a higher primate in front of a mirror, such as a chimpanzee or a human child, the higher primate will eventually use the mirror for grooming purposes because he recognizes himself in the reflection. Man's self-consciousness is so highly developed that humans have come to realize that our life expectancy is short and that our personal demise is inevitable.

Other animals fear death, danger, and pain, but they have no real understanding of time and the inevitability of their own destruction. The time-death equation that adult human animals understand becomes a constant source of anguish. A strong survival instinct is built into our DNA code from our long evolutionary journey from bacteria to man. When the survival instinct collides with the self-conscious knowledge of our impending death, the human brain needs both a psychological and a neurological barrier to block the conflict and tension. That barrier we call religious belief and "the God part of the brain." The theory states that man has invented myths of God, soul, reincarnation, karma, and afterlife as a way to provide the brain with mental opium, a buffer to the constant ticking clock inside our heads that tells us that our inevitable doom is getting closer every day.

The psychological need for a feeling of immortality is so great that our religious tendencies have become part of our DNA code. Humans who believe in the supernatural religions tend to be calmer, healthier, and thus live longer than the nonreligious. Believers also tend to show more bravery when courage is needed to protect their tribe. Genetic tendencies to have religious feelings are fortified over thousands of years of evolution through survival of the religiously fittest.

If your religious beliefs feel exactly right to you, it may be because your subconscious mind wants you to believe them so that you will have a better chance for health and a long lifespan. If you intuitively sense that you have been alive on planet earth before, perhaps that feeling of d?ja vu comes from your DNA code, not from a reincarnating soul, because DNA has been active on planet earth for at least 3.8 billion years, and we are all created and united by its existence.

Scientists knows that there is only one real life form on planet earth, and that is DNA itself. DNA is like a giant vine that has taken over the world. Through the never ending chain of DNA code, we are not only closely related to other mammals, but also intimately related to insects, plants, and even bacteria. Many times in our past the higher life forms on earth have been wiped out by impacts of asteroids and comets, yet the surviving bacteria have always evolved upward into more complex plants and animals. DNA is not just a helpful chemical substance that resides inside us. DNA is our biological level identity, our three dimensional physical 'soul.'

All over the world, wherever you find man, you will find supernatural religions promising some form of life after death. Moslem extremists gladly kill themselves in the name of their religion. American war heroes have died fighting Japanese and Germans in the name of Jesus, and no doubt many felt they were going to heaven for their heroic efforts. God is a pretty handy device when your tribe is in trouble. Almost all of us, atheist and theist alike, instinctively call out to God for help when we are in grave personal danger.

Man's philosophical beliefs have also been shaped by a survival contest of world religions to see which religion can most completely satisfy our emotional needs for a feeling of comfort and safety. Organized religion is a business and must have money and public support to survive. If your spouse or child dies, you want a priest, rabbi, monk, or swami to tell you that your loved one's soul is going to a better place. Can you imagine a funeral service where a holy man bluntly states that the deceased has no soul and is gone forever? That would seem cruel, and any religion that provided such a terse death ritual would not last long in the religious marketplace.

Why do so many enlightened teachers believe in souls and karma? It has been my observation that even the enlightened are affected by cultural conditioning and have a tendency to pass on the religious teachings of those who came before them with only minor modifications. For example, the famous enlightened teachers from meat eating societies in Tibet, China, and Japan also ate meat, while the great sages from strictly vegetarian India claim that eating meat is a horrible unspiritual practice. So I ask, did Rajneesh and J. Krishnamurti believe in souls because of some direct experience, or simply because they grew up in soul oriented India? Rajneesh once stated that even plants have souls, and that if an enlightened man (Rajneesh himself) sat next to a plant, that plant would be so graced that in its next incarnation it might be born as a human being. I find that grandiose and self-serving statement difficult to believe, and I suspect a significant amount of the time Rajneesh was simply shooting his mouth off without even thinking about what he was saying.

On another occasion, Rajneesh stated that we are attracted to beautiful people because their outer beauty represents the inner beauty of their souls, as it is the soul which creates the physical body and mind. Science has proven conclusively that DNA creates the body and brain, not any mysterious and immaterial "soul." Outward beauty does not always mean inward beauty, or even a sane mind. The infamous serial killer Ted Bundy was quite handsome, yet he is estimated to have murdered between 35 and 50 women just for the thrill of it. If the great "enlightened" Rajneesh could be mistaken about something this basic, then couldn't he be wrong about anything? [see photographs of Ted Bundy]

The "master" Rajneesh presented many idiotic theories about life right here and now, so why should anyone believe his theories about souls and reincarnation? It is only because of his great psychic presence that his disciples refrained from laughing out loud at some of his ridiculous ideas. [see The Ridiculous Teachings of Wrong Way Rajneesh] Rajneesh was living proof that enlightenment, intelligence, and honesty are separate phenomena. You can be a fool, a liar, and a criminal, and also become a great energy channeler (enlightened) if that is your predisposition and desire. Freedom means free choice to be good or bad, and you have that choice no matter how powerful your meditation skills have become. George Gurdjieff (see photo), the famous Greek-Armenian mystic, was an alcoholic. Rajneesh (see photos) became a drug addict, yet both men could channel great cosmic presence that inspired thousands of spiritual seekers.

Rajneesh's use of drugs, especially nitrous oxide, Valium, and LSD, also casts doubt on his soul theory of enlightenment. Rajneesh once declared, that from his own personal experience, LSD can produce the same consciousness as a Buddha. During his younger sober days, Rajneesh stated that LSD produced a "false samadhi" and that consciousness was the product of "soul," not just physical chemistry. Rajneesh changed his teaching to rationalize his drug use by stating that "you are nothing but chemistry." He thus implied that it is OK to use chemicals to alter consciousness because you are chemicals bonded together in an organic biological machine. One could ask that if Rajneesh really had the power of astral projection as claimed, and the ability to leave his body and fly around the world at will, then wouldn't that be more entertaining than getting cheap thrills from taking LSD and nitrous oxide?

Rajneesh claimed to be as enlightened as the historic Buddha, and I believe that he was, but why does a Buddha need to take hallucinogenic drugs? My answer is that Rajneesh became bored with the Void because the Void can only provide peacefulness long term, but not an eternal buzz of blissfulness. Judging from my own meditative practice and reading of science, the buzz and bliss of meditation comes from a buildup of excess neurotransmitters like serotonin and dopamine in the brain. When you meditate in formal sessions you are conserving the chemical energy of your brain by not wasting it on thoughts and sensory distraction. Thus, you become blissful and may experience nonsexual orgasms during meditation sessions, but that ecstasy gradually dissipates after you return to your normal work routine. The feeling of spaciousness and peacefulness continue, but the buzz settles down to a feeling of neutrality and quiet emptiness. There is no eternal orgasm-ecstasy-buzz-bliss possible because any human feeling that has a beginning must also have an end due to the inherent chemical nature of the brain. [see "Increased dopamine tone during meditation-induced change of consciousness"]

The Buddha is reported to have said that there is "no bliss." Rajneesh at times admitted that he himself felt "no energy," though those around him felt awash in his energy. U.G. Krishnamurti has stated that there is "no bliss." When I meditate in formal sessions, I experience bliss and nonsexual orgasms felt in the hara (belly center), the heart center, the forehead center, and in the center of the head directly behind the eyes. The problem is, the orgasmic feelings never lasts. I have to go back to my meditation room and sit to regain the neurochemical energy that dissipates during the daily routine of work. Using my brain for utilitarian proposes eats up those neurotransmitters rather quickly. It may also be that the brain itself wants to bring us back to a state of neutrality, because a neutral brain has the greatest ability to ensure our physical survival. A man distracted with a blissed-out brain is likely to be the first member of the tribe eaten by the lion, not the last. Meditation and enlightenment may be a neuro-chemical experience, not a magical soul experience outside the laws of chemistry and physics.

Rajneesh changed his name to "Osho" and ended his life in a state of dementia due to illness and drug addiction. J. Krishnamurti avoided major scandals, stayed sober, and is still highly revered long after his death. But was J. Krishnamurti really a saint and somehow better ethically than any normal human being? I know many people who lead virtuous lives who don't meditate at all. What made J. Krishnamurti different was not how he lived, which was ordinary, but his tremendous presence of being. You stood next to him and felt flooded in cosmic energy which pushed you high into the sky, destroying all feelings of limitation. Was J. Krishnamurti's grand presence the result of many past lifetimes of spiritual effort, or was it the result of modest effort in meditation combined with a genetic gift for cosmic consciousness?

Matthew Alper points out in his book that some forms of epilepsy cause hyper-religiousness and mystical experiences. J. Krishnamurti's mother was an epileptic, and we know epilepsy can be genetically transferred. J. Krishnamurti never had fits, but he often mysteriously passed out, giving those near him warning that he was about to lose consciousness. [see pictures of an intense J. Krishnamurti as a young boy] The Indian sage Ramakrishna was reported to have had fits in which he thrashed on the ground uncontrollably. The universally revered Ramana Maharshi claimed that his emotional heart center was located in the "right side" of his chest, which I suspect represents a brain abnormality. In normal human beings the emotional heart center is located in the exact center of the chest. [see article on temporal lobe epilepsy]

Is it possible that natural variations in our genetic code could produce in each century a handful of people with brains perfectly adapted for enlightenment, thus making meditative practice so easy that they reached the goal with little effort? Ramana Maharshi is reported to have achieved "God consciousness" at the tender age of 17! Rajneesh claims to have become enlightened at age 21. J. Krishnamurti was in his early twenties when people around him started to feel that he was fully enlightened. Ramakrishna was reported to have been "born enlightened," as was the ancient Chinese mystic, Lao-Tse.

Are the spiritually gifted among us the rare but naturally occurring result of genetic variation? Of the 20,000 to 25,000 genes that make up a human being, roughly half are suspected of being devoted to blueprinting our central nervous system. Thus, with 10,000 to 12,500 individual genes controlling the formation of our brain and spinal cord, the potential for major variations in the level of human consciousness is enormous. For example, scientists have found that changes in just a few human genes can have a dramatic effect on the level of our intelligence. Is it therefore logical that human gene combinations exist that control the amount of raw consciousness we possess as well.

Few humans have the artistic talent of Michelangelo, or the mathematical genius of Albert Einstein. If there is a natural genetic "bell curve" for intelligence, then why not a natural genetically driven bell curve for psychic power as well? [see The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life, by Richard J. Herrnstein and Charles Murray] Research has shown that identical twins tend to have the same level of interest in religion and/or mystical experience. This suggests that there is a strong genetic component to our personal meditative potential. If DNA can explain the vast differences between a mosquito and a man, then why can't genetic variations also explain the mental differences between a Hitler and a Buddha?

Are the enlightened simply those few individuals at the extreme forward edge of the bell curve, with the masses of the world population stuck near the middle? If there are child prodigy pianists, artists, and even child prodigy golfers, then why not child prodigy meditators as well? The Asian cultures may have simply mistaken naturally occurring genetic variations in the human brain for evidence of a romanticized past life history that does not exist in fact. The group conditioning became so strong that the myths of reincarnation fooled even the enlightened ones. History shows that the easiest explanation for a phenomena that has the most supporting evidence is usually correct. Grand claims require grand evidence to justify a belief in them, and there is currently no scientifically valid evidence of reincarnation or a magical transference of personal karma.

If the spiritual bell curve theory is true, it could help explain the obvious corruption of gurus. Rajneesh was a convicted felon and a proven liar of historic proportions. George Gurdjieff was also a chronic liar and a loud and often rude alcoholic. The genetics based view of enlightenment helps explain why there are so few enlightened ones at any given time. If every soul has multiple chances to improve its meditation skills over lifetimes of effort, then surely the world would produce more than the meager handful of enlightened sages that are born each century. Since at least the dawn of Hinduism (about 1500 BC), long before the historic Buddha was born (about 563 BC), millions of human beings have been making sincere effort at meditation, yet where are the results of these lifetimes of effort? The mathematical logistics of the soul-karma theory do not add up no matter how you look at it.

The argument for souls and/or immortal karma is that enlightenment is a process that takes many lifetimes of effort, and the fruition of our long journey through time is the eventual payoff of "moksha" (final spiritual freedom), infinite ecstasy, and liberation from all suffering. This highly romantic idea appeals because it brings a sense of warmth and justice into a cold and often pointlessly cruel world. It intuitively seems fair that right action is eventually rewarded with positive results, but this belief in inevitable karma has also caused negative results. In Tibet it produced a kind of fatalistic inaction which aided the Communist Chinese in their military takeover in 1950. To quote Drupon Samten Rinpoche, "They can be taking this life, but they cannot take the next life." This feeling of immortality has brought Tibetan Buddhists a great sense of peace and compassion in the face of invasion and genocide, but is it based or real-world fact or just wishful thinking?

Belief in souls and immortal karma has had many negative effects in India, where the theory of reincarnation helped establish the ancient Hindu caste system. The caste system was abolished by law in 1949, but lives on as an unfair social class structure which is considerably worse than the traditional class snobbery practiced in Europe. The lower caste, the Shudras, are considered inferior to the higher castes of Brahmins, Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas. Even below the Shudras are the outcasts, known as the "untouchables," who have no caste at all. The untouchables are looked down upon as being spiritually unworthy due to past life sins, and are limited to performing the most unpleasant jobs, such as disposing of dead bodies and cleaning toilets. The theory of reincarnation has been used in India as a convenient rationalization to exploit those who are poor and uneducated. Skin diseases, such as leprosy, are considered signs of punishment for evil deeds committed in past lives. Medical science has proven that leprosy is just an ordinary bacterial infection that anyone can contract given sufficient exposure to the bacillus, Mycobacterium leprae. Even Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh promoted the inhumane karmic explanation for leprosy.

Reincarnation and immortal karma were a way ancient peoples could explain the inherent inequities of life, death, disease, riches, and poverty in religious terms that had no basis in fact. All of the major world religions are relics of the prescientific era, and all have negative biases woven into their teachings. I suggest that it is time to embrace a pro-science meditative attitude that does not promote irrational belief in magic and the supernatural, things which exist in our imagination, but which have no real existence in fact.

Rejecting the soul theory negates any need to answer such impossible questions as where do souls come from and why they exist at all. The rebellious sage U.G. Krishnamurti stated "there is no such thing as enlightenment," and that his state of continuous cosmic consciousness was without cause, or "acausal." Could it be that the real cause of enlightenment is rarefied DNA combined with modest effort? Perhaps the ancient Hindus and Buddhists invented myths of souls and immortal karma simply because they were uneducated observers of the phenomena around them and inside them. Siddhartha Gautama never knew about neurons or DNA, so how could he be expected come up with any explanations for life that were not based on inherited cultural myths of the supernatural?

I dismiss claims of past life memories because of the projective nature of the human brain. The brain can project any image or feeling, and it is exactly the same neurological mechanism that projects fantasies of the subconscious that also projects authentic memories stored in brain cells. What comes out of that one singular projector may be real memory or real fantasy, but no one can tell the difference with certainty, not even the late J. Krishnamurti or the Dalai Lama.

False memories are a common occurrence in courtrooms and have sent many innocent men to their deaths for crimes they never committed. Just imagine a monk walking into a courtroom claiming to remember all of his past lives. Then imagine the monk being grilled under cross-examination and he cannot even remember what he had for lunch just a few days before. Even the enlightened sages have memory problems and need to write down important dates and facts so they won't forget.

If a high Tibetan lama or Hindu yogi enters a medical laboratory full of skeptical scientists and proves through testing that he can transfer his consciousness out of his body, then belief in souls and reincarnation would be easier for everyone. To date that has not happened, and hospital tests designed to prove out-of-body episodes during near death experiences have yielded no positive results. As far as scientifically valid evidence of soul is concerned, the well is completely dry. Human beings exist as footprints in the sand. One day the footprints will be erased and only the sand will be left behind. There is no reincarnation and there is no personal continuity of karma. [see Belief in reincarnation tied to memory errors]

I use to dismiss U.G. Krishnamurti's claim that there is no enlightenment, no soul, and no reincarnation as just his negative way of teaching. Perhaps, however, he is just trying to tell us the truth no matter how shocking that truth may be. Instead of becoming attached to the small personal identity of a mythical human soul, or to the very real human body, it is apparent that we must identify with nothing less than infinity itself to find authentic immortality. That is a pretty tall order for a human brain that only weighs about 3 pounds (1,300 to 1,400 grams). All of the great religions of the world may be wrong and just a product of our own fear of dying. That possibility is electrically shocking to me, but it may well be true.

A summary of the main issues

1) There is no positive proof for the existence of souls, immortal karma, reincarnation, or any spiritual afterlife. It is interesting to note that in their last years even Rajneesh/Osho and J. Krishnamurti reversed themselves and stated that there was no reincarnation and thus, presumably, no soul. If there is no reincarnation and no heaven or hell, then the question of soul is moot.

2) There are legitimate science based alternate explanations for phenomena attributed to souls and immortal karma. The enlightened teachers seem to confuse the effects of DNA for the effects of soul. For example, people with higher intelligence and a more finely articulated DNA code are perceived by them as being older and higher souls.

3) There are obvious profit and political power motives for those who promote belief in the supernatural. How many gurus have made fortunes off the idea of souls and reincarnation? How many monasteries, ashrams, churches, mosques, and synagogues would go out of business if people found out there is no soul or immortal karma? How can governments and the religious hierarchies control the masses if word leaks out that we all end up in the same state of eternal unconsciousness after we die, no matter how we behave while we are alive? Would there be a Vatican City or Tibetan Portola Palace without a belief in souls and/or immortal karma? The idea of soul has historically been as much a matter of politics as it has been an issue of personal religious belief.

4) It is highly probable that human animals have a built-in genetic predisposition to avoid the inevitable fact of our future death in order to reduce fear and stress. Our brains create myths of God, soul, immortal karma, reincarnation, and afterlife as a buffer against the hurtful knowledge of the inevitable demise of ourselves and everyone we love. By inventing myths of afterlife and/or reincarnation, the brain can exist comfortably without the highly charged survival instinct electrically connecting to the newfound knowledge of the inevitability of our own death. The supernatural myths thus act as a resistive electrical shunt, blocking a dangerous short circuit between two parts of the brain.

5) Life on earth was created through the nonhuman laws of chemistry, physics, and probability. Strands of chemicals (DNA) were created by sheer accident and replicated themselves faster than they could be destroyed. By further accident, some DNA strands became encased in protective shells which increased their survivability dramatically, creating the first bacteria. From simple bacteria more complexity was added until a myriad of multicelled creatures was produced. Through this slow process of evolution over billions of years, there was never any need for soul except as a myth to help human animals deal with their growing consciousness of the inevitable time-death equation. Scientists have produced active viruses from their base chemical components, and they did so without concocting any "soul."

The logistical mathematics of the soul theory do not add up. Does every new bacteria, seed, egg, spider, minnow, or cockroach that appears in the world demand a soul to go along with its already sufficient DNA code? We know that humans evolved from bacteria. When did soul come into the picture and why? Is there a printing press somewhere stamping out trillions of new souls every day to keep up with the demand? The soul theory lacks logical credibility, and science has shown us that the universe is extremely logical in its structure, formation, and evolution.

6) The famous film director, Alfred Hitchcock, often added a theatrical ploy to his movies called a "MacGuffin." The MacGuffin distracted the audience long enough that suspense could be created and the plot could develop without giving away the true course of the story. In the end, the MacGuffin has no meaning in itself. Likewise, Hindus and Buddhists have invented complicated myths of reincarnation and/or immortal karma, declaring that we are all trapped in a cycle of birth and death and only our eventual enlightenment can set us free. The Eastern traditions have created a highly sophisticated myth structure, but the underlying function of their myths is identical to the more childlike myths of Christianity, with its almighty God, angels, and heaven. The belief in karma and reincarnation is the MacGuffin that keeps our minds diverted from the inevitability and finality of our own death.

No one can honestly say that it is impossible that human beings have souls or immortal karma. You cannot prove an absolute negative against such a big and complex issue. One can only say that given the evidence the possibility is unlikely. The burden of proof is on those who believe in the supernatural, and there are currently no facts to back up their case. On one side of the scale you have an almost infinite preponderance of evidence that the supernatural does not exist, and on the other side of the scale you have rumors, myths, and wishful thinking. More realistic and scientifically valid ways to view the big issues of life and death are detailed in The TES Hypothesis. _


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## carlos

>>True I have not bothered to study ALL the 13hundred religions cause >>most of them are homemade bullshit like scientology and other "make >>money scams"

>>THEY ARE ALL THE SAME BS

Once again how can you know they are BS when you just said yourself you have not studied them all. You contradict yourself.

>>Stop using the "EINSTEIN SAID THERE WAS A GOD" wannabe >>reassurance 
>>Einstein was a humanist PANTHEIST who considered the NATURAL >>LAWS >>OF THE UNIVERSE as "GOD". 
>>He denied soul and ALLLL religions

I said he was agnostic and NOT athiest. You stated they were all athiests. Your statement was wrong. He did not deny there was a God, he said you cannot be certain either way.

>>Science DOES NOT say the world need observes if that was true we >>wouldnt be here, shit ur stupid

Ah a personal attack, thats it if you cannot argue throw a few personal insults that'll help. Quantum physics is all about the observer. I did not say we wouldn't be here, I argued that the observer is the most important thing, which it is (right now anyway).

omg man I have access to google too, I can copy and paste. Those are Dawkins arguments, not yours. Try typing your own ideas.
It attempts to explain consciousness but is not fact. Its one mans opinion. Yes, its only opinion. It has not been proven. There are thousands of theories out there. So what?

Debunk what? How the hell does this experience of one person mean there is no God?

Go back to google and try again.


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## Guest

Again Einstein was no agnostic he was a pantheist. 1-0

Ive read and read and read and read and read so much quantum physics

Google? dude..

You fuckedup

I digged up some GREAT information, gave you a chance to read it and yor not argueing against cause you cant.

Dig up your own ideas

OK

If consciosnesswas important to the universe we would never be here in the first place... Read about evolution 

Sorry ur too easy

Why did I se Dawkins as source, cause he's one of the leading specialis on evolution and biology

Evolution is not another THEORY its a scientific fact


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## PPPP

Evolution is a theory  
It's a good one.
Scientific theory is based on observation and proof.

lets not confuse theory with hypothesis 

(is it at all possible to agree to disagree? nobody _really_ knows for certain so there is no end to the argument. it's not like anyone is likely to change their minds just because someone is mean to them about it.)


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## Guest

http://www.notjustatheory.com/

yea based on proof and facts.

On one hand we got billions of evidence on the supernatural we got ZERO NADA NONE HMMMMMMMMMMM WHAT TO BELIEVE? A VERY HARD CHOICE ITS CONFUSING

Damn carlos ur not sffering DP/DR but down syndrome


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## Pablo

MentallyIll said:


> If consciosnesswas important to the universe we would never be here in the first place... Read about evolution


I dont understand what you mean by this?

I dont see a huge amount of discrepancy between Dawkins and spirituality. Dawkins says that humanity is becoming more conscious due to evolution, whereas the majority of spirituality paths aim to make the indidvidual more conscious, so in other words spirituality can help evolution along its way by increasing human awareness. You could even say that it is a pretty good purpose in life to help evolution along with your own spiritual efforts.

Also science has not contradicted Buddhism at all, the Dalia Lama even said in one of his recent books that if science did prove any aspect of Buddhism wrong then he would recommend that they change Buddhist beliefs accordingly.

As to that persons view on Rajneesh, well Rajneesh contradicted himself on purpose all of the time and more or less said that his main teaching was to have a completely open mind, so at one point he may say that a soul and God exists and another day he will say that it doesnt, all that mattered to him was whether his helped advance his devotees conscioussnes and that people would form their own beliefs upon their own experiences rather than relying on somebody else.


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## LOSTONE

Evolution theory is religious dogma and nothing more.

It is the religious dogma of this world that is going against the creator of this universe we live in.

It is dogma that goes against our own creator.

The God that gave us life.

Evolution dogma is a great disrespect and dishonor toward Jehovah God and he will not tolerate it for much longer.


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## LOSTONE

By the way Carlos, most of the arguments that come from MentallyIll are all contradictions to his/her own words.

He/She has even agreed with what the bible says about some things but then he/she will go on to say that the bible is "WRONG".

It is impossible to reason with someone who is at the same time totally unsure of himself/herself and also totally sure of himself/herself.

It is pretty clear to me that MentallyIll probably does not even believe his/her own beliefs.

Hence the contradictions.

Anyway I hope you have a good recovery MentallyIll. 
I hope you don't die as you almost did the last time you left this forum.

P.S.

Don't be afraid to turn back to Jehovah God.
He will forgive you as long as you do turn back to him. 
That is why Jehovah sent Jesus to die for your sins. It is Jehovah's desire to forgive you. You simply need to accept Jehovah's guidance and Jehovah's provisions for Jehovah's ability to forgive your sins.

It is more likely that you will be forgiven though if you do turn back to Jehovah God. If you keep telling yourself that you don't believe in Jehovah God then you may find that Jehovah God will be telling you that he does not believe in you and then you will no longer exist. 
I hope the best for you.
Take Care.


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## LOSTONE

*Ps 34:8
Taste and see that Jehovah is good, O YOU people;
Happy is the able-bodied man that takes refuge in him.*

*Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ??As I am alive,? is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ?I take delight, not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living. Turn back, turn back from YOUR bad ways, for why is it that YOU should die*

Also remember,

*1Th 5:2
2 For YOU yourselves know quite well that Jehovah?s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. *

*Joel 2:11-14
11 And Jehovah himself will certainly give forth his voice before his military force, for his camp is very numerous. For he who is carrying out his word is mighty; for the day of Jehovah is great and very fear-inspiring, and who can hold up under it??

12 ?And now also,? the utterance of Jehovah is, ?come back to me with all YOUR hearts, and with fasting and with weeping and with wailing. 13 And rip apart YOUR hearts, and not YOUR garments; and come back to Jehovah YOUR God, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness, and he will certainly feel regret on account of the calamity. 14 Who is there knowing whether he will turn back and actually feel regret and let remain after it a blessing, a grain offering and a drink offering for Jehovah YOUR God?*


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## LOSTONE

Those were for you MentallyIll.

Just a little something for you before you leave.

Please don't forget those scriptures no matter how you feel or think about Jehovah God.

You may one day change your mind.

I just want you to remember that Jehovah God will be waiting for you to come back to him if you ever do change your mind about things.

*There is nobody as forgiving as Jehovah God.*

Once the great fearful day of Jehovah arrives it will be to late to be asking for mercy though. Now is the time to turn back to Jehovah.
Do not wait until that fearful and dreadful day arrives because then it may be to late for you.


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## Guest

Haha ur the most deluded psycho christian ive met LOSTONE, personally I don't judge mentally ill persons but please stop sharing ur delusions on a forum that is trying to help people with disorders kk thx

Buddhism is been proven wrong on MANY topics

AGREED WITH JEHOVA GOD WTF IVE NEVER DONE THAT. Your crazy get help now hallucination indicate psychosis

Im hndred percent sure of myself wtf stop trying to play psychatrist

Ur sayin ecause Im a atheist and got morals Im christian WTF it only proves I got morals based on rational thought

Go fuck yourself with a cross

"Don't be afraid to turn back to Jehovah God." BACK TO WTF U CRAZY MOTHERFUCKER IVE NEVER AGREED WITH the delusion


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## LOSTONE

> Go flower* yourself with a cross


That sounds nice but I don't know how to flower a cross.

I guess you are talking about a cross with flowers painted onto it but that would not make any difference to me.

First of all I think you are the one that needs spiritual help.
And second, a cross is an idol and the bible says that we should abstain from idols just as the Hebrews did back in bible times.

*Acts 15:20
but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols

1Co 8:4
Now concerning the eating of foods offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no God but one.

1 John 5:21
Little children, guard yourselves from idols.

Ps 106:36
And they kept serving their idols,
And these came to be a snare to them. 
*

We should not make the same mistake that the Hebrews often made and keep letting idols become a snare to us also. Idols such as the cross should not be used in worship.

As the bible says at Luke 4:8, it is to Jehovah God alone that we should be rendering all of our worship to. He alone is worthy of our praise. There is no room for idols such as the cross.

Even Jesus is not to be worshiped.

These are Jesus Christ own words about who we should be worshiping.

*Lu 4:8
In reply Jesus said to him: ?It is written, ?It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.??*

Throw the cross in the trash where it belongs!


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## Pablo

MentallyIll said:


> Buddhism is been proven wrong on MANY topics


On what ?


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## LOSTONE

*This would be my only answer to you Pablo.*

*Ro 1:19-23

19 because what may be known about God is manifest among them, for God made it manifest to them. 20 For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world?s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable; 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God nor did they thank him, but they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their unintelligent heart became darkened. 22 Although asserting they were wise, they became foolish 23 and turned the glory of the incorruptible God into something like the image of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed creatures and creeping things.*

*I have no idea what Mental will say though.*


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## PPPP

LOSTONE, As a catholic (admittedly a bad one but still) I would beg to differ. 
Science is about recording and making observations about the world around us.
As such science can only help us better understand creation.
What is wrong with stating what can be observed in the world around us?
So even if you believe that god created the world there is no reason to say that science is in conflict with faith.

It is in no way disrespectful to observe and marvel at the complexity and beauty of the workings of the world.
Faith and reason shouldn't be in conflict.



Vatican II said:


> ...methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are." (Vatican II GS 36:1)





LOSTONE said:


> Evolution theory is religious dogma and nothing more.
> It is the religious dogma of this world that is going against the creator of this universe we live in.
> It is dogma that goes against our own creator.


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## Guest

THERE IS NO GOD LOOK AROUND THE WORLD IS FUCKED


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## LOSTONE

> OSTONE, As a catholic (admittedly a bad one but still) I would beg to differ.
> Science is about recording and making observations about the world around us.
> As such science can only help us better understand creation.
> What is wrong with stating what can be observed in the world around us?
> So even if you believe that god created the world there is no reason to say that science is in conflict with faith.


Yes there is a reason that human wisdom and the truth are in conflict.

I will show you from the bible why this is.

I will answer both Layla and MentallyIll here at the same time by simply showing you what the scriptures say.

Science for the most part is good. It has achieved great things but the theory of evolution is not good science. It is more of a religious dogma then a real scientific theory.

Now this is what the bible says.

Layla take good note of this and you will realize the conflict with what the bible says and with what your religious teachers have been teaching you.

This was your quote from the Vatican



> because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself


Now look and see with your own eyes the exact opposite teaching that comes from the bible (the inspired word of God).

*James 4:4
Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God. *

Obviously this shows that the teaching that you are getting from the Vatican is the exact opposite from what the bible says.
That false teaching from the Vatican is what causes so much confusion about who God really is. And about the true condition of this world.

Here is the truth about this world. This is the answer for both of you..
This is why the world is messed up and this is why so many people blame God for the problems of this world. People do not know this scripture because of false teachings. This scripture is very important though because it makes it very clear that this world and God are indeed at odds with each other.

*1John 5:19
We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one. *

Yes the bible teaches that this entire world is lying in the power of the wicked one. The original serpent, Satan the Devil is the true ruler of this world. That is why the wisdom of this world will prove to fail.

*John 18:36
Jesus answered: ?My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.? *

The problems of this world are a result of bad leadership over this world. And as the bible teaches, this world is being ruled by Satan the Devil. The original one going against Jehovah God. When Adam and Eve followed Satan down his path of rebellion then that is when this world and Jehovah's Kingdom started to have enmity between them.

Here is what the bibles answer is to this worlds so called "wise men"

*Isaiah 29:14-16
14 therefore here I am, the One that will act wonderfully again with this people, in a wonderful manner and with something wonderful; and the wisdom of their wise men must perish, and the very understanding of their discreet men will conceal itself.?

15 Woe to those who are going very deep in concealing counsel from Jehovah himself, and whose deeds have occurred in a dark place, while they say: ?Who is seeing us, and who is knowing of us?? 16 The perversity of YOU men! Should the potter himself be accounted just like the clay? For should the thing made say respecting its maker: ?He did not make me?? And does the very thing formed actually say respecting its former: ?He showed no understanding??

1Co 2:5
4 and my speech and what I preached were not with persuasive words of wisdom but with a demonstration of spirit and power, 5 that YOUR faith might be, not in men?s wisdom, but in God?s power.

6 Now we speak wisdom among those who are mature, but not the wisdom of this system of things nor that of the rulers of this system of things, who are to come to nothing. 7 But we speak God?s wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom, which God foreordained before the systems of things for our glory. 8 This [wisdom] not one of the rulers of this system of things came to know, for if they had known [it] they would not have impaled the glorious Lord. *

*1Co 3:18-20

18 Let no one be seducing himself: If anyone among YOU thinks he is wise in this system of things, let him become a fool, that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God; for it is written: ?He catches the wise in their own cunning.? 20 And again: ?Jehovah knows that the reasonings of the wise men are futile.?
*

So Layla, my advise for you is to not pay attention to those that are lying to you and teaching you the thoughts of men. Pay attention to what the bible says.

Jehovah is God almighty. 
The POPE is a just a man.

*Isaiah 40:13-31
13 Who has taken the proportions of the spirit of Jehovah, and who as his man of counsel can make him know anything? 14 With whom did he consult together that one might make him understand, or who teaches him in the path of justice, or teaches him knowledge, or makes him know the very way of real understanding?

15 Look! The nations are as a drop from a bucket; and as the film of dust on the scales they have been accounted. Look! He lifts the islands themselves as mere fine [dust]. 16 Even Leb?a?non is not sufficient for keeping a fire burning, and its wild animals are not sufficient for a burnt offering. 17 All the nations are as something nonexistent in front of him; as nothing and an unreality they have been accounted to him.

18 And to whom can YOU people liken God, and what likeness can YOU put alongside him? 19 The craftsman has cast a mere molten image, and with gold the metalworker overlays it, and silver chains he is forging. 20 A certain tree as a contribution, a tree that is not rotten, he chooses. A skillful craftsman he searches out for himself, to prepare a carved image that may not be made to totter.

21 Do YOU people not know? Do YOU not hear? Has it not been told to YOU from the outset? Have YOU not applied understanding from the foundations of the earth? 22 There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell, 23 the One who is reducing high officials to nothing, who has made the very judges of the earth as a mere unreality.

24 Never yet have they been planted; never yet have they been sown; never yet has their stump taken root in the earth. And one has only to blow upon them and they dry up; and like stubble the windstorm itself will carry them away.

25 ?But to whom can YOU people liken me so that I should be made his equal?? says the Holy One. 26 ?Raise YOUR eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one [of them] is missing.

27 ?For what reason do you say, O Jacob, and do you speak out, O Israel, ?My way has been concealed from Jehovah, and justice to me eludes my God himself?? 28 Have you not come to know or have you not heard? Jehovah, the Creator of the extremities of the earth, is a God to time indefinite. He does not tire out or grow weary. There is no searching out of his understanding. 29 He is giving to the tired one power; and to the one without dynamic energy he makes full might abound. 30 Boys will both tire out and grow weary, and young men themselves will without fail stumble, 31 but those who are hoping in Jehovah will regain power. They will mount up with wings like eagles. They will run and not grow weary; they will walk and not tire out.? *

*Psalms 83:18
That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,
You alone are the Most High over all the earth.*

Jehovah God is not ruling this earth!
The wisdom of this world is foolishness with God!
This world is at enmity with Jehovah, Jesus and God's Kingdom.
Scientist can not instruct Jehovah about one single issue!

So Layla if you pay attention to these scriptures then you will see clearly that you are being given very false information. READ the bible, it is God's word. I think I have just made it clear that the bible teaches that this worlds wisdom does not come from God and that it is actually at enmity with God. PAY ATTENTION TO THE BIBLE!!

The bible says clearly how mankind was made!

*Genesis 2:7
And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.*

If you believe in the bible then it is clear that the evolution theory is "dogma" and a clear lie that has been produced by the Devil in order to take away glory from God.

Beyond what the bible says, Science has made it clear itself that evolution theory is nothing more then dogma. There is no real evidence backing it up and there is clear evidence that disproves the evolution dogma. "Scientific evidence" Yes even our flawed human wisdom is enough to see clearly that the evolution theory is wrong if only you would just use that wisdom that you should have.

MentallyIll there are many other scriptures that show in more detail about why this Earth is being ruled by Satan and why God is allowing Satan to rule this world right now. You will never be able to understand the bible until you seek to understand it though. I can not force you to understand the truth. You have to be humble and find the desire to find the truth yourself. When Jehovah sees that you have the right heart condition and you do turn back to his direction and search for him then Jehovah God will help you to understand the truth about who he is.

Jesus himself said that nobody can even come to him unless his father draws that person to him.

*John 6:44
No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him; and I will resurrect him in the last day.
*

Maybe that will happen to you one day.

If not then I think you will find the bible very hard to understand. Simply because the truth is hidden from the wise and haughty people of this world.

*Mt 11:25
At that time Jesus said in response: ?I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes. *

If any of you reading this are actually taking Jehovah God and the bible seriously then my advise is this. Seek Jehovah with all your heart! Search for the truth about Jehovah as if you were seeking for hidden treasures! This means life, the accurate knowledge of the bible means everlasting life!

*Zep 2:1-3
1 Gather yourselves together, yes, do the gathering, O nation not paling in shame. 2 Before [the] statute gives birth to [anything], [before the] day has passed by just like chaff, before there comes upon YOU people the burning anger of Jehovah, before there comes upon YOU the day of Jehovah?s anger, 3 seek Jehovah, all YOU meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably YOU may be concealed in the day of Jehovah?s anger.*

John 17:3
*This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.*


----------



## LOSTONE

By the way MentallyIll, you talk about flowers a lot so I thought I would give you some before you leave.


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## Guest

Thanks man, hope you get help ur prolem is delusion not DP/DR


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## LOSTONE

> Thanks man, hope you get help ur prolem is delusion not DP/DR


I act this way intentionally because it is the only way I feel I can get through to anyone on this thread.

I won't argue the points of evolution/creation.

That is why I post the way that I do.

I won't argue.

I will only try to teach about what I know.

You can take from that what you want.

If you want to believe that I am delusional then that is up to you.

I simply wanted to clear up any misconceptions about what the bible says.

The evil in this world is not proof of God's non existence and the bible explains why.

If you are going to put your faith in evolution then that is fine but don't doubt God simply because this world is messed up. The bible fully explains why this world is messed up and it fully explains how God is going to deal with the problems here.

If you ever become curious as to what God has to say about our situation then send me an email and I will show you all the scriptures that fully explain everything about this world very clearly. I wont waste anymore time posting here.

I have posted enough here I think.

If anyone wants to learn more about what the bible actually says then they can send me a PM or an email.

Or even better, contact the Jehovah's Witnesses here https://watch002.securesites.net/contact/submit.htm
And they will goto your house and study the bible with you in person.

MentallyIll I actually think that you do believe in God. That is why you seem so upset. I believe that you are trying to force the belief of evolution because you are mad at God.

Maybe I am wrong, this is just my opinion but it is something you should think about for yourself. If you do have thoughts about who God is or anything like that in the future then please contact me. I can help you to see that Jehovah God is indeed very good. And that it is his desire for you to know him and to actually have a loving father son type of relationship with him.

Feel free to contact me if you ever find yourself searching for the true God that created this universe. I can help you get to know him very closely.


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## Guest

Sorry man the reason Im mad is because there IS NO GOD and you people try to delude people in to your cult .

ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL evidence point to nonexistance of your or ANYONE elses "GOD" see? thanks
Subective beliefs and experiences cant be taken for scientific evidence

K, cleared up I DO NOT HATE CHRISTIANS I jst hate the way oyu ALWAYS ALWAYS keep PUISHIN your faith onto others like in EVERY THREAD.

You even LIED in this thread "MENTALY ILL EVEN AGREED WITH ME ON GOD" hmm isnt this breaking a ammendment or some shit. Lying is bad. So no youll go to hell


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## LOSTONE

MentallyIll you were agreeing with some of the teachings of the bible and then you said that the bible was wrong.

I do not even thing you realized that until I did point it out to you.

It is in one of the other threads. I would look it up but there have been so many threads up in the past few days that it would take me forever to find it and I need to get to bed.

I am not a lier.



> I jst hate the way oyu ALWAYS ALWAYS keep PUISHIN your faith onto others like in EVERY THREAD.


Yes, how do you think I feel?
Your religion is pushed much more onto me then mine is onto you. In school for example. All I ever heard about was evolution. Evolution was God in school even though I could clearly see even when I did not know the truth about God that evolution theory was obviously wrong. It was pushed onto me no matter how much I objected. I even had to take test on the subject.

And after all that, guess what, I am not mad.

You want to know why I am not mad?

It is because I know the truth now and nobody can take that away from me.



> thanks
> Subective beliefs and experiences cant be taken for scientific evidence


Again, I will tell you that all the scientific evidence that proves the power of God is the evidence that exist all around you. This entire universe for example.

God is not some ant that any scientist can find in an anthill someplace on earth.

Jehovah God is the creator of the universe!

The universe is the proof of his existence.

The universe is more then enough evidence to provide proof of the creative power of God.

The universe is not a subjective belief. 
Therefor the creator of that universe is not a subjective belief.

The works of my own hands are proof of my existence in exactly the same way that the works of Jehovah's hands are proof of his existence.

The universe and all of God's creation can not be denied. 
It can only be ignored as being the expression of Jehovah's creative power and glory.

*It is unwise to ignore your own creator.*

I think I will leave you with that.


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## PPPP

Honey I respect that you have your beliefs and that they are different from mine. 
Please give me the same courtesy.

It seems like you're assuming that I'm indoctrinated or ignorant.
I have read the bible, and I have studied it academically in university.
I do not always agree with what the church teaches but one thing that I am proud of about the catholic church is that they teach evolution in catholic schools. 
I am an informed adult and I do not believe in the _literal_ truth of the bible. 
It is a very important religious and historical document but I do not believe that it is ALL literally true and I do not believe that it is the exact and unchanged word of god. 
I have very good personal reasons to believe this and I'm secure in my beliefs. I do not feel that my beliefs are false.
 I mean we could go around in circles all day quoting the bible at each other but I just don't have the energy for it. 
Like I said nobody is going to change their minds just because someone yells at them. 
I don't think I'll post in this section anymore. I don't think there's much point to it when all's said and done. Just gets folks all riled up and hostility makes me feel sick.
I'm interested in ideas is all.

much love.



> "You asked me if I thought your visions were true,
> I would say that they were if they make you become
> More human,
> More kind to every creature and plant
> That you know." - Hafiz





LOSTONE said:


> So Layla if you pay attention to these scriptures then you will see clearly that you are being given very false information. READ the bible, it is God's word. I think I have just made it clear that the bible teaches that this worlds wisdom does not come from God and that it is actually at enmity with God. PAY ATTENTION TO THE BIBLE!!


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## Guest

LOSTONE said:


> MentallyIll you were agreeing with some of the teachings of the bible and then you said that the bible was wrong.
> 
> I do not even thing you realized that until I did point it out to you.


Here this is straight up ludacris use of sense. SERIOSLY get help

Ok so I agree that killing is wrong and suddenly that means I buy into the fairytale of the rest of the bible WTF ur mental
Well using ur logic then ur a muslim hindu buddhist catholic cause you agree with ONE thing they say.
Sorry I knew killing was wrong WAY before I even heard of the bible. USING COMMON FOCKN SENSE

WHY ARE EVOLUTION THAUGHT IN SCHOOOL because its FUCKN science PROVEN WITHOUT QUESTION. GOd damn serioousl I cant discuss with you Imma go talk to my cat he got more sense than you SERIOUSLY NO FUCKN JOKING peace

When yoou decide to come back to reality check this ot:

http://www.notjustatheory.com

I know ur too crazy right now to read it so Il just leave it there for when your ready


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## CECIL

Ok first up, I usually don't get involved in science vs religion because its completely pointless. But Mentally Ill you are wrong on one big thing:

Scientific ideas are NEVER proven. They can only be disproven. They are a model which is constantly changing. Saying that science is proven fact is flat out wrong - it is widely accepted until proven wrong and nothing more. I know this because I studied science at university.

Still, both the dogma of science and religion are quite infantile, so I won't say anything more.

Except so long and good luck - hope you can get your life back on track


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## LOSTONE

> I do not believe that it is ALL literally true and I do not believe that it is the exact and unchanged word of god.


Then why are you quoting the Vatican?

You are quoting men.

I am quoting God.

If you do not believe in God's power or you do not believe in the bible then what do you believe and why do you quote the Vatican?

What God does the Catholic Church Worship?
Is your God the Pope?

I would agree with you if you were to say that the Pope is powerless.

Jehovah God is not powerless though, and it is a simple thing for him to preserve his own words for those who were intended to hear his words. 
Mankind's attempt to change the bible and even destroy the bible have failed. The bible is intact and very understandable for anyone searching for God.

Doubting God is the same as not knowing God, for if you knew him then you would not doubt him.


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## PPPP

Mental I hope that if you do decide to leave then you'll be well and happy.
you have all my best wishes even though we don't often agree. 

Lostone, you are just being a mixer and you know it.
The pope is NEVER worshipped, he isn't even considered a saint when he dies unless the usual process is passed.

Speaking from a purely historical point of view,
the bible was written down by men too. Even the new testament was not written by jesus himself. 
The old testament is the history of the hebrews, some of it is the recorded sayings of the prophets and some is history and stories written and compiled by men. 
The compilers decided what to leave in and what to keep out. They were not god.
And then it's further changed by the nuances of translation, unless you're fluent in hebrew and biblical greek.
You can study the history of it if you're interested but it doesn't seem like you are. You're entitled to your beliefs and your point of view but don't fling insults.
I'm done. I think you're alright but I don't want to get into it with you anymore than I have. I've said my piece. Even if you keep attacking me I'll be blissfully unaware.


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## Guest

CECIL said:


> Ok first up, I usually don't get involved in science vs religion because its completely pointless. But Mentally Ill you are wrong on one big thing:
> 
> Scientific ideas are NEVER proven. They can only be disproven. They are a model which is constantly changing. Saying that science is proven fact is flat out wrong - it is widely accepted until proven wrong and nothing more. I know this because I studied science at university.
> 
> Still, both the dogma of science and religion are quite infantile, so I won't say anything more.
> 
> Except so long and good luck - hope you can get your life back on track


Sorry the earth is round its proven aka: a fact

A wise man once saiod "extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence" we got NONE

And no u got it wrong its not upp to science to disprove myths its up to the myth creators to PROVE EM. Get it


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## LOSTONE

Layla I am not attacking you.

I am showing you what the bible says.

I am not the one mixing anything.

*I am quoting scripture. *

I know very well what the history of the bible is. I also know very well what the history of the Catholic Church is and also the history of the Hebrews and the Jewish religion.

The simple point is this.

Either you believe in the power of the creator of the universe or you don't.

*2Ti 
3:2-7
2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away. 6 For from these arise those men who slyly work their way into households and lead as their captives weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires, 7 always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth.*

Layla if you look back at my posts toward you then you will notice that all I really did was ask you some questions.

Such as these.
Then why are you quoting the Vatican? 
If you do not believe in God's power or you do not believe in the bible then what do you believe and why do you quote the Vatican? 
What God does the Catholic Church Worship?
Is your God the Pope?

If you view those questions as an attack then there is nothing I can do about that. I only stated what you yourself said. Simply that you are quoting men and disregarding God's power. I asked you the questions above so you would maybe think about where your own faith is placed at.

I do not know what you believe Layla. 
You say that you are a Catholic and that you believe that the bible is not the word of God.

I am not a Catholic so I do not know all of the Catholic teachings. 
I do know what God's teachings are however and those are the teachings I am trying to get across to you.

You quoted the Vatican's words that were:
"the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God"

And I quoted the bible to show you that this teaching is completely against what the bible says.

If that is upsetting to you then I only can assume that you have more faith in the Vatican then you have in Jehovah God.

I am not positive though because you did not answer my questions.

My biggest question was "What God do you worship?"

I am very confused about what your answer would be to that question. 
Maybe you should think about it.

Personally, for me to answer that question, all I need to do is quote from the bible. My answer will be the same as the answer that was given by Joshua.

*Joshua 24:15
Now if it is bad in YOUR eyes to serve Jehovah, choose for yourselves today whom YOU will serve, whether the gods that YOUR forefathers who were on the other side of the River served or the gods of the Am?or?ites in whose land YOU are dwelling. But as for me and my household, we shall serve Jehovah.?*

I don't know what all the people on dpselfhelp believe.

What I do know is that I serve Jehovah God.
And I put my full trust and faith in his ability to carry out his will. 
I have no trust in the wisdom of men.

I trust Jehovah God.


----------



## Guest

LOSTONEE how can you believe in Jesus when its just a replica of Mithra

EXACT SAME STORY

Same birthday same wisemen same virgin birth same 12 disicples same miracouls same death and ressurection but that myth is 6k year old

http://www.atheistnation.net/video/?vid ... -identity/

This piss on your delusion and rapes u with the cross

Haha ah religion PHHHHHHHULEASE


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## LOSTONE

The first extant record of Mitra/Mithra is in the inscribed peace treaty between Hittites and the Hurrian kingdom of the Mitanni in the area southeast of Lake Van,* c. 1400 BCE. *

1400BCE is long after the beginning of the bible account that goes all the way back to Adam and Eve.

The knowledge of the true God has been around since the beginning of human existence. But also since the beginning of human existence there have been false religious beliefs set up all over as a way to mislead humanity. The beginning of this false religion path started in the Garden of Eden when Satan lied about Jehovah and got Adam and Eve to disobey Jehovah. From then on, this whole world has been filled with lies about God.

The truth is still attainable for everyone with a heart condition that is rightly disposed toward God though. Jehovah God knows who his people are and he will not forget them. The truth will eventually prevail.

The bible is not simply a story book.

It is backed up by the power of the true God Jehovah.

Anyone with a completely humble heart toward God will eventually realize this to be true. God is revealing the truth about himself to the entire earth right now. A warning is going out to this entire earth about the Kingdom of God and the war that will soon take place between that Kingdom and the Kingdoms of this earth.

That God is Jehovah God and his people are Jehovah's Witnesses.

Ps 83:18
That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,
You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

Isaiah 43:10
?YOU are my witnesses,? is the utterance of Jehovah, ?even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me

Acts 22:14-16
14 He said, ?The God of our forefathers has chosen you to come to know his will and to see the righteous One and to hear the voice of his mouth, 15 because you are to be a witness for him to all men of things you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you delaying? Rise, get baptized and wash your sins away by your calling upon his name.?

Just as Jesus himself was one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Re 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, ?the Faithful Witness"

Where is Mitra/Mithra today?

Where is the power of Mitra/Mithra?

Where are Mitra/Mithra's Witnesses ?

The power of Mitra/Mithra is nothing.

As for the name of Jehovah.

Well Jehovah's name in itself is a fulfillment of prophecy.

Habakkuk 2:14
For the earth will be filled with the knowing of the glory of Jehovah as the waters themselves cover over [the] sea

That is taking place right now!

The earth is filled with the knowing of the glory of Jehovah right now. 
Yes there are many who do not believe in the power of Jehovah but it is clear that the entire earth is being preached to about Jehovah God and his faithful Witnesses have grown into a mighty worldwide army upholding the glory of his name.

Here is one example.

http://watchtower.org/languages.htm

That is just a website.

The amount of information being given out to this entire earth right now about Jehovah God is really overwhelming. What other God has been able to accomplish this?

Not only has Jehovah been able to make his name known throughout this entire world but he even had this fact wrote down in the bible 2,000 years ago so we could see that it is not by mankind's power that this is being done but it is by God's power that it is being done.

*Mt 24:14
4 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.
*

Yes just as Jesus said 2,000 years ago.

The good news about the Kingdom of Jehovah God has indeed been preached to the entire world for a witness to all nations!

Now when the end comes, I assure you there will be no time for excuses any longer.

And I also assure all of you that you will see the power of all other God's fail in the day of Jehovah's judgment.

Mitra will not save you from the anger of Jehovah.

Neither will Evolution.

Only Jesus ransom sacrifice will be able to save anyone. 
That sacrifice is applied toward anyone that Jehovah is choses to show mercy to. If you want to know how to gain Jehovah's mercy then read the bible. The bible provides all the answers that we need.


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## Guest

All I can say I feel sorry for you living in fear and being controlled by a book.


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## LOSTONE

Ill

The bible was actually the end of my fear.

My fear was that this world was going to end up where it is heading. 
And that this nightmare would not end in a good way.

Gladly I have found out that the world will not end up where it is heading because there is going to be a major intervention in this world soon.

Some of humanity will be saved from this mess.

By the way, I am not controlled by anything.

I make my own choices in life.

It is *my choice* to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and to serve Jehovah God.


----------



## Pablo

LOSTONE said:


> That God is Jehovah God and his people are Jehovah's Witnesses.
> 
> And I also assure all of you that you will see the power of all other God's fail in the day of Jehovah's judgment.
> 
> Mitra will not save you from the anger of Jehovah.
> 
> Neither will Evolution.
> .


I truely feel sorry for you that you really think only a few select people are Gods people and you live in fear of a wrathful God, surely there are enough problems in life without you making things worse by believing in such bull. Fearing God is like walking around with a gun to your head and believing only your religion is right is like willfully shutting down your own mind, i feel sad even contemplating people living in such a way 

I think people get attracted to Jehovas witnesses because that path sets life in stone and says this is what you should be doing and this is what you shouldnt and your lifes purpose is to spread the word of Jehova, but *wake up* life is not that simple, it is not always so clear cut everybody is confused and scared all the time, but looking for a security blanket in the form of a book which is going to tell you what to do is not going to make your problems go away, you can deny them for a while but they still wont dissapear.

It is painfully obvious to me that Jehohas knock on peoples doors not in any sense of compassion or love it is purely for their own sake to give their meaningless lives some purpose and to make them feel somewhat secure and special, but if they could wake they would realise how counter productive their efforts are and how it is all about themselves and not about anybody else. and before you say anything my views are based upon the Jehovas I have met which knock on my door and I have spoken to with respect, I dont see anything different when I look in eyes,I see the same fear and confusion as everybody else, whereas there have been a couple of Swamis I have met who radiate peace and love without the need to preech anything, their simple presence was enough to impress me unlike all the hundreds of Jehovas I have met who aggressively force their views upon me.

Lostone I like your posts when you speak from the heart, it touches me far more when I feel like I am actually genuinely communicating whereas when I read a load of scripture I switch off and all impression comes to an end. You should realise that your presence and heartfelt communication will effect people far more than any scipture from an old outdated book ever will.


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## LOSTONE

Pablo I understand your views and opinions because I used to hold them myself.

I have realized over time though that my former opinions were wrong.

I realized that because of looking deeply into things for myself.

Then over time I realized more and more what the truth is.

After realizing that I know what the motivation of the Witnesses is.

Their motivation is a motivation to save lives.

It is not fully understandable until your viewpoint changes about the bible and about God. Then you will start to realize what the motivation for the Witnesses really is because you yourself will have that same motivation.

Once you realize that the message of the bible is Love then that love should motivate you to get out and share that message with others. 
And any false teachings that make the bible look evil will become something detestable to you because those teachings only create confusion about the truth of who God is.


----------



## CECIL

MentallyIll said:


> And no u got it wrong its not upp to science to disprove myths its up to the myth creators to PROVE EM. Get it


You misunderstand. You said that science proves things to be true. It doesn't.

It goes like this:

Hypothesis is suggested - it is worded so that it can ONLY be proven wrong, never proven right. This is because some new evidence can always come along and prove it wrong at a later date.

Hypothesis is tested - experiments are done to try to prove the hypothesis wrong.

Hypothesis is altered in light of new evidence.

Hypothesis is tested again - experiments are designed to prove the hypothesis wrong.

If the hypothesis still isn't proven wrong, then its submitted to the international community.

Only after massive amounts of testing is something made into a "Theory". At that point, it is a widely accepted idea that so far has not been proven wrong. It is a model - an approximation of how things work given our current technology. It is ALWAYS changing.

This is the scientific model. I am only telling you this because if you really want to argue science vs religion you should understand that Science is just as flawed


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## Guest

yea u are right at that

but the THEORY of evolutio n is a theory of the FACT evolution


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## CECIL

Not really. Evolution is just a theory, which basically means "There's something going on here and this idea seems to fit pretty well with what we've observed so far".

Anyway, maybe I'm just being podantic. Science is just as flawed as Religion because it still insists on handing your power over to someone/something external. In the case of Christianity, its the idea of God and Jesus. In Science, its the idea that you have to put your faith in logic and reason. That somehow by denying your emotional/intuitional world that we can find some external truth.

But the real truth is that there is no external truth. Everything is subjective. There is never a completely non-involved observer. Even quantum physicists realise this now (Shroedinger's Cat - awful spelling, sorry; Holographic Universe Theory).

As for your argument about human consciousness not existing in the past somehow proving that our consciousness is not important now....everything that is, is alive. Everything is conscious, just not in the way we think of consciousness. The entire universe is about subjective experience. Deny it all you like, it only makes the DP worse.


----------



## LOSTONE

> That somehow by denying your emotional/intuitional world that we can find some external truth.


Actually I think that intuition, emotions and a good heart condition is exactly how you find the truth about God.

I just would not stop there.

I would go further and say that knowledge is also important.

According the the bible, God draws his people to him. He knows who has the right heart condition. The bible says that God knows who his people are and that nobody can come to Jesus unless the father draws that person to Jesus. So I would say that it has a lot to do with having a good sense of morality and also many other things.

Once faith is built up to a point where there is no longer any doubting then a person is expected to put their full trust in God and not continue making up his/her own reasonings about things.

The reason is because that person should realize that although we have free will and many good abilities, the creator of our abilities is in a much better position to be able to understand what is best for us.

The bible does not ask that you hand over all your power to God from the very start. It "asks" that you search for God. It ask that you search for God as if you were searching for a hidden treasure.

Once you have found him and you know him then it expected that you will listen to him and respect his position of authority.

Science and Religion are different in that Religion looks to a higher power that should know what is best for us. Science puts it's trust in men to be able to figure out what is best for us.

Science has achieved many great things but it is limited because it is totally human and humans are obviously flawed.

Religions are flawed for the same reason. They are all mostly the ideas of humans.

I would never stop searching for the answers though because there is nothing more important then finding the right answers to the questions about where we come from and where we are going.

For me it was simple to realize that there is a creator of this world.
It is obvious to me each and every time I look into a mirror. 
I can see clearly with my own eyes that I was designed by something or someone for some reason. So my search to find answers has become a priority in my life.

The answers that I have found are all very good and they all fit. Nothing seems to be missing. So I have no reason for doubting at all. 
Therefore I willingly accept what I know to be the truth about things and I submit to my God's authority and I respect his position as being much higher then my own. I am nothing and I know nothing in comparison to my God and that is the reason I look to Jehovah for answers and I follow his guidance. I do this because everything I have been thought about Jehovah makes total sense to me, it fits perfectly with what my own heart tells me about God. So I am able to put all my trust in him because of this.

I am forced to do nothing. 
It is a matter of choice for all of us.

We can believe whatever we want. But if our faith and our beliefs are wrong then that may mean the difference in life and death.

I can not judge anyone but it is obvious to me that all humans die. So there is a slight hope for any of us to survive death. This is the hope that I have found in the bible. The bible shows me how I can adjust my life so that maybe I will survive death. What hope other people have does not matter to me anymore.

Some people have a hope in other Gods and some people have hopes in Science.

Only one hope is going to pan out to be true in the end. That is the hope that I have been searching for because I know that if I get this wrong then it may mean my death.

Life is to much of a gift to just throw away without a fight and without searching diligently for the answers to life's biggest questions..


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## Guest

"_But the real truth is that there is no external truth. Everything is subjective. There is never a completely non-involved observer. Even quantum physicists realise this now (Shroedinger's Cat - awful spelling, sorry; Holographic Universe Theory)_."

Uhm no, theere is theories of simulaed universes etc but common sense realism is wha to go by.

This universe is the only observeable so speculating there is something outside of it is false either way and cant be proven.
OFCOURSE there is a external truh but yeah as humans subective experience of objective reality is the only thing we can ever do.

Believing the Universe need u is LOL tho suddenly LOSTONE seems sane again

Rememer your a objective subject

Saying that scientist mean that we are important is a wrong assumption though most dont


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## LOSTONE

> suddenly LOSTONE seems sane again


What made me insane?

I never said that I am God or that I have been up in heaven and I know everything. I am not delusional or stupid.

I simply have only found sensible answers to life's biggest questions in the bible.

Science is a limited tool that humans use to understand this universe.

So all I have done is made the realization that I do not know everything and in reality what I do know is very little. I have also become very aware of how amazing it is that this universe and this earth exists at all. And even very tiny things like Microscopic lifeforms and even DNA structure are just so amazingly well designed that I must assume that it was designed by a designer, someone or something that is very powerful and intelligent.

It just seems obviously impossible to me that anything that exist in this universe could have just popped into existence by chance.

This realization is what lead me down the path of searching for answers from God.


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## CECIL

LOSTONE said:


> Once faith is built up to a point where there is no longer any doubting then a person is expected to put their full trust in God and not continue making up his/her own reasonings about things.
> 
> The reason is because that person should realize that although we have free will and many good abilities, the creator of our abilities is in a much better position to be able to understand what is best for us.


i.e. Surrendering your personal power to some external deity that supposedly knows what's best for us. How about this idea? The reason God gave us free will is because only YOU can know what's best for YOU. You are free to make whatever decisions you want as long as you are willing to shoulder the responsibility for those decisions. That is what true freedom is. Surrendering your decisions to someone or something else is disempowering.



> Once you have found him and you know him then it expected that you will listen to him and respect his position of authority.


Again, why do we need someone to have authority over us? Why can't we be our own ultimate authority?



> Science has achieved many great things but it is limited because it is totally human and humans are obviously flawed.


I don't think humans are flawed at all. Quite the opposite actually.



> I would never stop searching for the answers though because there is nothing more important then finding the right answers to the questions about where we come from and where we are going.


This is the beauty of it - all you need to do is ask and the universe answers. Yes, you really can personally talk to "God" every day. No need for the middle man, just interact directly with the source of life 



> For me it was simple to realize that there is a creator of this world.
> It is obvious to me each and every time I look into a mirror.
> I can see clearly with my own eyes that I was designed by something or someone for some reason. So my search to find answers has become a priority in my life.


You created your self and your world. For what reason? That's up for you to decide.



> The answers that I have found are all very good and they all fit. Nothing seems to be missing. So I have no reason for doubting at all.
> Therefore I willingly accept what I know to be the truth about things and I submit to my God's authority and I respect his position as being much higher then my own. I am nothing and I know nothing in comparison to my God and that is the reason I look to Jehovah for answers and I follow his guidance. I do this because everything I have been thought about Jehovah makes total sense to me, it fits perfectly with what my own heart tells me about God. So I am able to put all my trust in him because of this.


That's fine. To each their own - hope it works out for you.



> I can not judge anyone but it is obvious to me that all humans die. So there is a slight hope for any of us to survive death. This is the hope that I have found in the bible. The bible shows me how I can adjust my life so that maybe I will survive death. What hope other people have does not matter to me anymore.


To me this sounds very grim. An alternative view is that everyone has life after death (We are all eternal) no matter what you did in this life. Additionally you can come back and live a different life if you choose to.



> Only one hope is going to pan out to be true in the end. That is the hope that I have been searching for because I know that if I get this wrong then it may mean my death.


Nope, there's roughly 6 billion unique realities and belief systems on this planet. Every single one of them is right, because every single person creates their own reality.

But to each their own


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## LOSTONE

> The reason God gave us free will is because only YOU can know what's best for YOU.


No, he only gave us free will so that we would be able to experience love and to show our love toward him. Without free will, love could not exist.

For example, you can program a computer to send you an email each day and make it tell you that it loves you but if it is simply running on a program that is already preset then there is no way it could truly have love for anyone. It would simply be running its program.

The fact is that only God knows what is best for us. But the reason we have free will is because God wants us to have freedom. He does not force us to do anything.



> You are free to make whatever decisions you want as long as you are willing to shoulder the responsibility for those decisions.


Yes we are allowed to make our own decisions but we do not need to be willing to shoulder the responsibility for our actions. The effects of our actions is going to be placed onto us no matter if we take responsibility or not. God does not play games with his creations. His laws are clear and the payment for breaking those laws must be paid for. Gladly God has provided payment himself. It is up to God whom he choses to apply that payment toward though. Jesus ransom will not be a payment for everyone. Actually the bible says that the people that will be spared from destruction will be very few because many are the ones that are going against God.



> Surrendering your decisions to someone or something else is disempowering.


Is it not true that all humans are surrendering their decisions to someone else?

Most people surrender their decisions up to their political leaders. According to the bible, the head of this world is Satan the Devil. So he is the one at the top who is actually in control of this world.

God does not force us to listen to him. 
He only asks us. 
It is this world and the governments of this world that uses force to control people. Jehovah God does not act that way. He is simply asking people to accept his offering of his sacrifice for our sins. He sent his only begotten son here to die for our sins and all he is asking back from us is for us to simply listen to him and obey his voice as we should be doing anyway.

Anyone that choses not to be on Jehovah's side will not be forced into submission. They will all simply be destroyed. As I said, God does not play games with humans.



> Again, why do we need someone to have authority over us? Why can't we be our own ultimate authority?


That is called Anarchy.

If you would enjoy being raped, tortured and killed then maybe you would like Anarchy. Personally I think that it is very obvious why we should all be searching for Jehovah God. We have been given a chance to be our own ultimate authority. Thats one of the big reasons that God is letting our sin continue for a short time. I think it should be clear by now exactly why it is a problem to go against Jehovah God. This world has been turned into a living nightmare because of our actions.



> I don't think humans are flawed at all. Quite the opposite actually.


Hmm well I can not even say anything to you about that. That is your opinion. Personally I can not even begin to understand your logic but I am not going to try.



> This is the beauty of it - all you need to do is ask and the universe answers. Yes, you really can personally talk to "God" every day. No need for the middle man, just interact directly with the source of life


Actually God does not even have direct relations with humans. The only time he ever spoke directly with any man was when he spoke to Adam and when he spoke to Jesus. All the other times he had any interaction with humans it was done through some angelic means. This is because of our state of sin. God does help people to find the truth about him though. If he sees that someone is searching then he will make sure to it that the truth may become available to that person.



> You created your self and your world. For what reason? That's up for you to decide.


I am not to sure what you are talking about here. 
I did not create myself. I did not even raise myself. And I am not even very good at taking care of myself now. I find it hard to understand how I could have created myself before I even existed. That does not even make sense.



> To each their own


Yes, that is called free will. 
The gift that God has given to all of us.



> To me this sounds very grim. An alternative view is that everyone has life after death (We are all eternal) no matter what you did in this life. Additionally you can come back and live a different life if you choose to.


Where do these ideas come from ???
Personally I like to spend my time looking for real answers and not just making up nice beliefs for myself. This is why I test out my own beliefs all the time in just the same way a scientific theory would be tested out. I check into everything to make sure that what I put my faith into is something real and not just a false hope. Personally I care more about being right about my beliefs then I do about anything else. If I am wrong then that is fine, I will just be happy to know what is really the truth.



> Nope, there's roughly 6 billion unique realities and belief systems on this planet. Every single one of them is right, because every single person creates their own reality.


So if someone shoots you in your head then who's reality is that? Is it your reality or the mans reality that shot you in your head?

If your beliefs were correct then their would be no point in a court of law. There would be no court because nobody would be right or wrong and no laws would ever be broken. There would only be your reality and nothing else. It is true that people like to create their own beliefs about things and people even create God's for themselves. This does not mean that the true God who created us is any less powerful though. And it does not mean that their is any other reality then the one that exists for all of us. That reality being that we have a creator who is warning the earth of the coming judgment upon this earth. Now people can create their own realities inside their heads and not pay attention to God's warning but that will not make God's day of judgment be postponed even one moment. When that day arrives then there will be no stopping it. This world and the different realities of this world will be over with. Then their will only be one reality for all living beings in the universe. Anyone not wanting to take part in that reality will be gone.



> But to each their own Smile


Yes that is the point in free will.


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## FightingDepression

MentallyIll said:


> By this I mean you will eventually DIE, don't die regretting your life.


I highly disagree on that statement.

So many ways to avoid death nowdays.. shame the media dosen't like to tell about it.

Cryonics is good for starts.
Try googling Ray Kurzweil and SENS.


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## CECIL

Dying is a part of life. Its not some horrible fate that we somehow have to escape, its a natural part of all life that we need to accept and embrace. Its just another transition into a different state of being.


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## Pablo

They say that the fear of death is behind all anxiety and struggle in the world which is why nearly all spiritual traditions have practises to confront your own death rather than try to avoid it like most people do. Some Buddhists even do meditations in graveyards or next to rotting corpses to get to grips with their own fear, maybe that is taking it a bit far but still if it works to get people to conquer their fear then it is worth it.


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## Guest

Pablo said:


> Some Buddhists even do meditations in graveyards or next to rotting corpses to get to grips with their own fear.


Interesting you say that, do you have any links to articles on that?

Why not take it to another level with cannibalism and consume one?s fear of death?


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## Pablo

Emulated Puppet}eer said:


> Interesting you say that, do you have any links to articles on that?


If you google it you will find many references to it, but I dont think it is practiced much in the West because we have a very different attitude to death than Eastern countries and you would probabaly get put in an institution if you did it in this country.



> Why not take it to another level with cannibalism and consume one?s fear of death?


I dont think that would work although by all means try it if you can find somebody to spare a bit of meat.


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## Guest

Pablo said:


> Emulated Puppet}eer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting you say that, do you have any links to articles on that?
> 
> 
> 
> If you google it you will find many references to it, but I dont think it is practiced much in the West because we have a very different attitude to death than Eastern countries and you would probabaly get put in an institution if you did it in this country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why not take it to another level with cannibalism and consume one?s fear of death?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont think that would work although by all means try it if you can find somebody to spare a bit of meat.
Click to expand...

I?ve not the time to google/search for this information? so I can?t take your word for it.

Depends on the person?s mind whether it would work or not. Did you not hear of the German cannibal Armin Meiwes who was arrested after eating a person who volunteered to be a victim/launch?

(Warning, 18+ only and graphic within the statement)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes



> Armin Meiwes (born December 1, 1961) is a German cannibal who achieved international notoriety for eating and killing a voluntary victim he had found via the Internet. After attempting to eat the (then alive) victim's penis, Meiwes killed his victim, and continued to eat a large amount of his flesh.[3] Because of his deeds, Meiwes is also known as the "Rotenburg Cannibal" or "Metzgermeister" (The Master Butcher).


Dear ya to get a blowy off him? lol. I might have seen some of the video... I was a member of orgish.com around this time... although I can not recall.


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## Pablo

Emulated Puppet}eer said:


> I?ve not the time to google/search for this information? so I can?t take your word for it.


errrrr ok, but there is no reason for me to lie about something so trivial and random is there :?

I read about that Cannibal bloke before but I dont think he was trying to overcome the fear of death he was just mental. I wouldnt take spritual advice from him if I was you.


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## Guest

Your words maybe truthful yet possible incorrect? I prefer 100% proof? which of course isn?t possible. It?s always 99.9%. You think what you wrote of was a trivial matter?

I agree he wasn?t after peace of mind, I was just stating how easy it would be to take a nibble on some one? although in this day in end? forums and viewed by the police. I disagree he was mental, he?ll have his own reasons for his actions, it might just be that we?re unable to understand them. You really can?t recommend any one to receive spiritual advice from, because we could say that all of them have been brain washed.


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