# hallucinations



## BobBasker (Oct 27, 2007)

Does anyone else have these? Like, little things. Trails and afterimages and visual static and geometric patterns in the dark, or illusion of movement in a static setting. I have these really bad, and they seem to be linked to my dissociation. They're scaring the shit outta me.


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## wellalrightthen (Apr 12, 2008)

i see them too sometimes..not neccesarily what you're seeing, but like..ill see lets say for example a mailbox out of the corner of my eye when i'm driving..and it looks like a person walking..and when i look at it head on its jut a mailbox..or sometimes i think i see arrows painted on the road where there are none. i think its all part of the big anxiety deal...which is really what DP is associated with. but if youre ever really nervous..i suggest going to a pyschistrist and talk to them about it..maybe they cna help you sort it out..thats what ive been doing..and it feels really good.

P.S. I just wanted to say thats its a releaf to see that someone else with DP see's little things..makes me feel like something isnt even MORE wrong with me than just this stupid DP.

good luck xo


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## girlbassplayer (May 27, 2008)

Thats so crazy...because I have the exact same problems.. I freak out and think that i am going schitzo or something.. I go to a psychologist and he tells me its nothing big.. but it still scares the crap out of me...sometimes it even looks like a nat flies by, but i know nothing is there...or it will looks like a line shots by.. I hate it... it definetly adds to the anxiety.. and it usually depends on the lighting of the room..if its dark i see them worse... when i am outside i dont usually have any problems...except when i look at the sky and its bright.. and the trailing of lights and after images is horrible...i hate it...and i can relate..and its awesome to finally know that someone else has the same problems..i guess the only thing i can tell you is that i've told every doctor i can think of and they all says its not hallucinations.. if it was hallucinations it would be severe like seeing people or rainbows of colors...helps for awhile..but my anxiety is pretty bad..i always think iam going crazy....althought they have also told me if you think you are, your not..


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## Ludovico (Feb 9, 2007)

What you are describing is hot a Hallucination. These types of visual distortions are generally attributed to HPPD (hallucinogen persisting perceptual disorder) and/or DR. I feel like a broken record here, but I'll just say it again: There is no correlation between psychosis ('going insane') and Depersonalization/Derealization/HPPD. You are not going insane.


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2008)

Visual snow?
Corner-eye-"hallucinations"

are not hallucinations,t hey suck yes, but ur not losing ur mind over it unless u focus too much on it.

It's usually sign of over stress, or burn out as in been up to late or just generally DPDRed


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Ludovico said:


> There is no correlation between psychosis ('going insane') and Depersonalization/Derealization/HPPD.


the literature says that schizophrenic people do not have body-ego, they experience loss of empathy, another hall-mark of depersonalisation disorder, it says in the that derealisation can be an early symptom of schizophrenia for some people.

Schizophrenic is another form of alienation.

The order of reality prefered by society is the duality of material and emotional existance.. The need to use the word crazy is saying people shouldn't be people it is based on the fear of loss of self and the need to see the other as lower, afterall, they experience less of "my reality".

In tribal communities, loss of self is sought. People are initiated into loss of self and ego-boundaries. I mean, society will not own the terror of the schizophrenic because it is a system of fear based on the false belief that everything can be controlled, and everything should be controlled, especially the boundaries of "appropriate" emotional-expression and the belief that totality of the self is BODY EGO >>>GONNA DIE>>>> BODY EGO! What a straight jacket on the experiential discovery of reality, spontaneity of thought and existential self-expression.

Alienation is a human experience. It is a normal human experience, and the absence of the experience of some alienation is virtually impossible, since we function with a human mind and nervous system and cannot be 100% in touch with ultimate reality all the time, even EMPATHY is facilitated by PROJECTION. If we were 100% in touch with all layers of reality, we would have no ego-boundaries, which is...a symptom of schizophrenia, strangely enough. Schizophrenic people are found to have something called Low level latent inhibition, which means basically, they are receiving more information into their heads at anyone time, they cannot cut out the crap. Normal people cut the crap, they aren't interested they don't want to own it. Schizophrenic people play a psychological role expressing the unspoken unwanted psychotic anxieties of the rest of the population who cannot admit to the possibility of loss of self, or complete social alienation. That's how scapegoating works too. Oh, and I forgot to mention, the possibility that working in an office or keeping up your mortgage payments is the be all and end all of this human experience.

Loss of self is one of the experiences available to man. It is a mental phenomenon, or spiritual, depending on how you see it. However it is one of the potential experiences of a person. It is a birthright to not identify with the body or emotions. It is not written in the law of the universe that the only reality is physical or even emotionally based, or mentally for that matter. The experience of self is not rigidly determined, there is no state of integration, disintegration, compassion or sympathy that is not unacceptable to the universe whilst the person continues to live. The universe "loves" its creations equally, and it has created the possibility of loss of ego-boundaries as a way of experiencing the self. Fuzzy logic (maths) shows that there are no clear boundaries between one thing or the other. The reality is loss of ego-boundaries. All the spectrum of human thought and emotional expression must be curtailed to fit the narrow, pre-determined rules of a body-ego society. That means metaphysics, spiritual enquiry and so on have to be dummed down or completely disowned. Introvertion is virtually regarded as a disease, in spite of the clear proof that the internal content of the mind is very important and will always be very important to one's interpretation of reality and enjoyment of aesthetic/autistic passtimes.

Autistic people are regarded as having a disease when they are living differently, they are more honest, more sensitive, more in touch with an animated reality, where objects have personalities and the whole world is painted in numbers or geometry. How beautiful to be able to experience that. But autism crushes the egotistic rule of society that people have to be pleasing to each others emotional states all the time. Presumably people aren't responsibile enough for their internal states to not be dependant on everyone conforming to their particular strain of normality. Otherwise difference would be refreshing and enlightening.


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2008)

Rozanne said:


> Ludovico said:
> 
> 
> > There is no correlation between psychosis ('going insane') and Depersonalization/Derealization/HPPD.
> ...


Yipes Rozanne,

I must disagree with this. Firstly Ludovico is correct what the OP described is not a hallucination. A hallucination is hearing a voice telling you to hurt yourself -- an actual voice OUTSIDE of your head, a certainty that people ARE looking at you when they are NOT.

My first real boyfriend, P, is schizoprhenic. My cousin, E, is bipolar-schizoaffective. The former has been very highly functioning then virtually non-functioning. Ditto with my cousin. Neither one (and both have read my website on DP) and heard me describe it and they have no idea what I am talking about. Both have been hospitalized when they have been psychotic. Both of these illnesses have been proved beyond a reasonable doubt to be NEUROLOGICAL and they along with many in my former support group who are mentally ill would say the same thing.

Also the odd thing is, NONE of the members of the group know what DP is. Most people w/DP/DR I've run across by accident have anxiety disorders and usually don't seek treatmment as they are AFRAID they will be considered "crazy." Those with chronic DP/DR seek treatment and get little help.

But a person with schizoprhenia can have insight into his/her illness. I've used this story before but one man in my NAMI group (I don't attend much anymore, only as an advocate for mental illness in general, not for any support) ... this man is schizoprhenic, about 50, in and out of hospitals his whole life, but now on proper meds has a job (low demand, forgot what it is -- gardner or something, PT). At any rate, HE doesn't know what my DP/DR are. He has intrusive thoughts, even on his medication to stick his hand in his garbage disposal and turn the disposal on. He has learned in therapy, with much hard work not to do this, though he has injured himself dramatically in the past in other ways.

My cousin has believed he was Jesus Christ. My boyfriend has had manias where he can "work" and create genius websites (which are a mess) without sleep for 4 days. NONE of these things are special or good. They are serious illnesses. I have to strongly state "this is a form of alienation" -- I'm not sure what you're saying. Functioning individuals in society do not experience these things.

As Ludivico noted the "hallucinations" described here are "tricks of the eye" in the main, they are also over-observation of our bodily functions. I used to freak out as a kid when I saw the pulsing of my blood in my eyes, say if I stared at a white wall. It terrified me. NORMAL/HEALTHY people see these things, floaters, etc. and don't freak out.

Also, some of the symptoms, like patterns, trails of light seem to be more common in individuals with HPPD, who can also have DP/DR. Some of us have these visual perceptual DISTORTIONS, which are also neurological -- the patterns/trails -- but I don't. It would seem more HPPD people do.

Anyway, I'm just rambling and unfocused tonight. But severe mental illness without a doubt involves serious brain disorder that is MEDICAL. Neurological. There is overwhelming evidence of this. I have spent far too much time in the presence of severely mentally ill individuals to have no doubt about this.

And for me, knowing individuals with Borderline can have severe DP/DR which is recognized by experts in Borderline, and knowing that those with severe anxiety and panic can have severe episodes of DP/DR ... living this long with it ... I KNOW there is something wrong going on in my head. I also have other symptoms, NOT just the perceptual distortion.

Well I won't go banging on about this. But I could post a list of scientific research so long it would crash the board.

I MUST disagree with this. And onset of schizophrenia and other such disorders have an onset that is VERY complicated involving mood, emotions, COGNITION. My boyfriend "pulled away" -- lost the ability to be loving/social before the worst came. But there were problems since he was young that he remembers.

And again, I have yet to meet anyone in person, save on this board w/DP/DR. However, all seem to have in common anxiety disorders. Yes, all mental illnesses can COME with the symptoms of DP/DR, but don't necessarily. My boyfriend has panic attacks as part of his schizoprhenia. He is AWARE he is sick. He knows when he's getting sicker, THEN he loses the ability to know if his delusions are real or not. (One friend w/OCD described DP/DR in her panic attacks -- gone know w/meds).

We KNOW the way we feel, what we're seeing, what we obsess about, etc. is NOT HOW WE SHOULD FEEL. So does someone with a major mental illness, however at some point they DO NOT KNOW how they are feeling is "wrong."

But it is clear in my mind with NO DOUBT, and I won't argue my own problems, that most/all mental illness involves a medical/neurological problem. That isn't to say these things cannot be TREATED, and go into REMISSION, etc.

Cheers,
D

This is messy, as for example recently, I have what I call "the jumblies" -- I have trouble concentrating on the most basic task. I get it done, but I can't focus. If I were at a job right now with multitasking involved, I'd be fired. I have been told in the past, "Sandy, you are some days so smart, and other days so stupid, I just don't understand it." I have heard this from employers (but I've never been fired) and even friends in high school YEARS ago.


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2008)

PS, I have never lost empathy. I have too much empahty sometimes. And my boyfriend (off the radar now), and my cousin, are both infinitely kind and empathetic, WHEN THEY ARE NOT ILL. The same can be said for many members of my NAMI group, and many members who show up at the support clubhouse. Some are so seriously ill there however, they don't speak coherently. They work on very simple tasks. They talk to themselves. These are the sickest of the sick, and it is a tragedy.

No gift. A tragedy.


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2008)

Also, the horror of schizoprhenia, bipolar, etc. is that someone can DIE from it. That is they can so lose touch with what they are doing they can physically harm themselves. My cousin nearly froze to death a few times when he "became filled with the spirit" and went out to preach.

Such people can't work, feed, clothe themselves. They can't be responsible for the most basic tasks of the day. They don't understand what you are saying to them, and you can't understand what they are saying sometimes. Then after an episode they can TELL you what happened. Not always. They cry and laugh simultaneously. Think that when you bring them food you are poisoning them, LITERALLY.

Here's a horrible hallucination. A woman in another group in L.A. told a story ... this is disturbed thinking! She has schzioprhenia. I don't know where she is now. Anyway, she worked in this "clubhouse" as a secretary part time, and did rather well. (Mind you this is a mental health daycare situation where you get no pay or you lose your disability).

She said, one night she was taking a bath to relax. In the tub, she pulled out the stopper to let the water run down. Suddenly she felt she was getting smaller and smaller and then started to BELIEVE 100% that she was going down the tub drain. She started screaming so loudly someone next door called the police. Fortunately her husband was there, she had to be hospitalized. She was ON HER MEDS at the time.

She could look back at this, and recall what happened, and LAUGH. She was very overweight from her meds, and said, "How in God's name could I ever believe I could fit down the drain." We all laughed ... mainly because she was then fine and had clear insight. That is what she lived with most of her life. That is living Hell.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

> "Sandy, you are some days so smart, and other days so stupid, I just don't understand it." I have heard this from employers (but I've never been fired) and even friends in high school YEARS ago.


You are human, your brain works different on different days. I'll be really sad when they bring out new, factory designed human beings, standardised for "maximum functioning".


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Dreamer* said:


> I have never lost empathy.


I have and I am not ashamed to admit it. 
Afterall, who is in control here, man or God?
loss of empathy is also a by-product
of separation and a world overrun by fear
and industrial depersonalisation
ever seen Kayaanisquatsi??
"the atomisation of man"
I had a disturbing dream this evening
about the potentialities of the
technological age and even a 
minister in England recently
said that students will download
information to chips to their brains
in the future.


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2008)

Rozanne said:


> > "Sandy, you are some days so smart, and other days so stupid, I just don't understand it." I have heard this from employers (but I've never been fired) and even friends in high school YEARS ago.
> 
> 
> You are human, your brain works different on different days. I'll be really sad when they bring out new, factory designed human beings, standardised for "maximum functioning".


Of course I am human. But *I don't want to feel this way!* I have been able to accomplish a LOT in my life, but no where near what *I* have wanted to. No one else's desires, MINE.

I have many "healthy" friends, and they are all unique -- they are not robots. And I will say most everyone I know has a mentally ill family member, friend, or someone they work with is troubled. And my dearest friends have empathy. They are not cookie cutter humans, they simply have other tragedy or challenges in their lives.

There are other people throughout my life who don't believe mental illness exists. And that includes my deeply devout born-again cousin. That is an interesting paradox.

My best friend's brother was killed by a drunk driver last year. 56 year old father of 3, husband, gentle kind man. I barely knew him, but I felt great sadness for my friend's loss. She has also taken the time to read my website, try to understand what is wrong with me. Though she "doesn't get it", she TRIES.

In a certain sense I have a rather dim view of humanity in general. I see a lot of bad in the world, a lot of non-caring people. And they can have good lives and terrible lives. There is suffering on all levels.

I do not see mental illness as a "gift" -- I see it as everything from a scourge, to a monumental challenge, to something someone deals with as best they can. I see that also in a friend's son who has a genetic disorder that affects both his heart and his maturity level. I see this in a successful friend who has an entire family full of depression.

And my mother's alzheimer's was horrendous, I would say more suffering and misery than my father's chronic congestive heart failure.

*Take just about anything away from me but a healthy mind.*

At my friend's daughter's graduation party, I was so sad, as I have no children, I don't have a good marriage, I have no legacy. This isn't "cookie cutter", picket fence world desires on my part. This is what I have LOST.

I see nothing special in my mind not working. In my anxiety being debilitating. My interest in things often non-existent. My depression sometimes completely overwhelming.

What has been taken from me, are the things I have wanted, not what anyone else has wanted for me. Things I wanted since I was a child.

I have fought a long time, and I continue to keep fighting. But I almost find it ... insulting to healthy people to say they are "not as good as we are" -- they WE have some specialness they don't?

And I look to the future, I see my body getting older, my back hurts, and one day I'll get all the crap that old people get. I hope to God not dementia. THAT would be horrible. I don't know if either of my parents loved me, and I don't know if I really loved either of them ... I look back and they seem like grandparents who took care of me or relatives. BUT, my father was damned lucky to have all of his buttons until he was 84. My mother's Alzheimer's took away every memory she had -- good and bad, and she ended up babbling away and urinating on herself as her brain died over a period of 12 or so years.

I'll take "boring" "common" heart failure when I die, over loss of my mind.

The mind is the Self.

Things that I WANTED, not someone else wanted, that I WANTED are gone. And people here can say I never tried hard enough to get those things. That is worse than saying what I knew to be true -- stupid or smart ... I am smart. When my mind doesn't work properly it infuriates me. I didn't take that as an insult, I saw that there were many days I couldn't hide my problems.

What is wrong with being mentally healthy? THAT hurts.
D


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## wellalrightthen (Apr 12, 2008)

Dear Rozanne,

I dont know who you are, or youre situation, but i think the purpose of this forum is SUPPORT eachother and help eachother through this, not scare the living crap out of eachother.

DP is a horrible scarey thing and one thing thats the most scarey about is, is that we feel like its the beginning of something more. I too fear that maybe i could have the beginings of a mental disorder. I come here to read other people's stories and share theyre feelings with mine. This is a SUPPORT forum. But from what i can tell my your forum signature with your "anoymous" quote, is that youre clearly a negitive person. Im not judging you, because i dont know your situation or anything about your life, but i dont think its right to come right out and say DP is a sign of SCHIZO YOU HAVE SCHIZO, thats not right.


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## BobBasker (Oct 27, 2007)

I wouldn't say I have a healthy mind. Its hard sometimes to keep a coherent thought. I generally have no problem in social situations, and people don't tell me I'm acting weird, but the brain fog is absolutely nuts.

For a while I thought it was impossible to have DP/DR this bad and not be going insane. But recently I found out my uncle had it even worse. At one point he was almost impossible to talk to. He said he would get in his car and turn on the radio and not be able to understand what the people were saying. He had it that bad for about a year, and after that it started to ease up. After three years it went away and he's never had it again. Now, theres about a 2 year gap in his memory during that period. This gives me hope.


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2008)

Your spiraling again....................You know who I'm talking to


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2008)

Rozanne said:


> Ludovico said:
> 
> 
> > There is no correlation between psychosis ('going insane') and Depersonalization/Derealization/HPPD.
> ...


O'rly? and why would you post that here? Just because some people have derealization doesn't mean they're gonna become schizophrenics. I think it's just silly to post that shit here, I mean you are basically making the already afraid people even more afraid about something so stupid.

I will agree with ludovico, I have had dp/dr for close to 5 years, people have had it for 15 years, 20 years, 30 years etc, well how come they aren't schizophrenics?

Don't let your fears make you believe you are going crazy. You are not crazy, you control yourself.

Don't post that sh1t here please.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Langfeld
-descrived true schizophrenia as having deprsonalization, autism, emotional blunting, an insidious onset and feelings of derealization

I didn't realise I would cause such an uproar about a "pet fact" I happened to catch on the internet and apologise profusely if I have disturbed or aggrivated people.

I would just like to add however, that I personally feel very disturbed by the attacks I have received about this. The essence of what I was saying was "symptoms are interconnected and no psychiatric illness stands completely alone". I have a holistic approach to life, and do not see illness in discrete categories.

What interested me recently was an article on "Freud's description of the psychotically structured personality" and how psychotic people have body-awareness disturbances even before the onset of disease. This interests me, for the sake of trying to understand things in terms of IDENTITY and self-awareness.

I never said "all people with derealisation wind up schizophrenic" or "everyone with schizophrenia has derealisation".

You PROJECTED that.


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2008)

Just to mention ,I have rapid cycling moods with borderline bp..[as do people with bipolar] which at times causes me to feel a bit strange and have slight derealisation,usually when im very "up".When I had psychotic depression[yes I was diagnosed by a proffessional] I had very severe derealization in connection to that.Ir was horific,there was nothing in anything...everything was so "gray",I was so so numb to the point that numb disapeared....,not just emotionally detached but totally empty I thought I was going to die because I just felt like a feather in the wind....but fainter.All the outlines to the world disapeared ,it was just flat and dead.It hurt to breath because I felt like an empty vacuem....I felt and watched everything "fading" out..everything was fading to ...i cant even desribe it,The world was like a graveyard devoid of any life ,with dull shapes which were lifeless people.I became so faint and faded that I had to label everything I looked at "tree" "car" but the tree or the car wasnt there it was just a random empty shape.I was walking dead and couldnt think anymore,my thoughts were so "thin" and had no substance whatever.Everything was disapearing.......fainter and fainter untill I felt mentally deaf.I could look at a person and then a rndom object and there was no differance between them or my relationship to them.There isnt a word to desribe this empty voidness,it was pure apathy ..but far far worse,I was a shell of nothing..nothing whatsoever.....which as I write about,even now is making me shiver.

I was offered ECT but refused it,I was told that I might be forced to have it which terrified me.I tried various meds was even described anti psychotics....eventually I was admitted to hospital and given valium and carbamazapine,which helped slihtly...eventually because my moods go and up and down ,It went up again...it still got down but it never went back to that degree.

DR/DP can be part of psychosis for some people.

Spirit.


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2008)

Rozanne,

OH MY GOD THIS IS LONG. BUT THERE IS INDEED A POINT, LOL. SEVERAL. APOLOGIES. :shock:

I didn't mean to get so fired up, but in looking at prodromal symptoms for schizoprhenia there are MANY, not just DR or DP, and DR and DP may not even be in the picture. Sadly many people here go to psychiatrists who in their ignorance diagnose some sort of "psychosis" or "prodromal schizophrenia", prescribe medications that make matters worse, etc.

I was very lucky to have a doctor back in 1975 diagnose me immediately.

If you look at all of the "warning signs" of early onset schizoprhenia -- in more modern journals (2008 are already out of date) -- DP/DR is NOT a critical indicator of schizophrenia at all. The list of symptoms are broad. A layperson could misinterpret some of the descriptions, but IMHO, anxiety disorders and specifically panic have secondary symptoms of DP/DR. Also individuals with Borderline Personality Disorder are known to have "severe episodes" of DP/DR.

The thing is, if you look at DP/DR as a symptom *not an illness unto itself -- and I don't see it as a common thing as an illness unto itself* it can tag along with a lot of things.

Think of a cough. A cough is a SYMPTOM, not a disorder or illness unto itself.

If someone presents in their GP's office with a persistent cough it could be:
1. The start of a cold
2. A strep throat
3. An ear infection (I had just a cough with an ear infection - fluid in ear made me cough until the infection was treated with a strong decongestant to clear the fluid. I had no other symptom save my bad ear was ringing and stopped up from a plane flight. No infection/no antibiotic needed.)
4. Warning of esophageal cancer
5. Warning of lung cancer
ad nauseum .....

*But one doesn't jump to the worst conclusion until further diagnostic procedures are done. And many things must be taken into consideration, including if the individual smokes, or works around dust, has allergies, etc.*

A SYMPTOM is a symptom. A constellation of symptoms can be placed under certain umbrella "DISORDERS".

I think talking of schizoprhenia here is not a terrible thing, but it is misleading. And for me is infinitely frustrating as

1. There is LOT of self-diagnosis going on here (not a good thing)
2. There is a LOT of fear

Also, this is my opinion, but it is based in more and more fact, that though Freud was a brilliant man, many of his theories don't add up to what we know today about the real neurological underpinnings of mental illness. What is interesting however is Freud believed that long after he was gone, neurological causes would be found ... he thought perhaps there were locations in the brain for The Ego, SuperEgo, etc.

But I have been misdiagnosed by far less experienced individuals who had no CLUE what was wrong with me. And if I weren't as educated as I am I'd have about 17 different diagnoses. And for all intents and purposes, after all these years, my true diagnosis is Generalized Anxiety Disorder which I don't believe existed as it does now (all the criteria in one place) in the DSM, or anyone's head for that matter.

No symptom exists in a vacuum. It just doesn't. The mind is too complex, the body is too complex.

But I was hurt by the concept that mentally healthy people are not as "special" as "us folk" and I find that preposterous... sorry, but I really don't know anyone who has a pain free life. And I have friends who took very dramatic turns from the "normal expectations" of life. Two who have farms, live very simply. Writers, artists (how they make their living). Non conventional types. Musicians.

And I should say, I do lack empathy for certain horrible people in this world, or I simply can't deal with them. I avoid them if at all possible. Interesting thing though is a lot of "mean" people, or people that bug you in a job, etc. frequently have "issues" ... the eccentric individual may be hiding terrible social anxiety, etc. And people will say, "Oh, he's a snob, he won't talk to us."

At any rate. One can be familiar with all views of psychiatry/psychology, and one can have psychological problems WITHOUT SYMPTOMS. Many people have issues dealing with other people WITHOUT FEELING ODD. I have both psychological issues (re: my childhood), and SYMPTOMS that are extremely limiting. It is very possible I could have had the same childhood, but no DP/DR, no anxiety, etc. But I would have still sought counseling for interpersonal issues, etc.

One symptom a disorder doesn't make. And this is why I am sus of the concept of "Depersonalization Disorder". There may be some who have JUST THAT. But I'd guess 90% of us or more have other problems such as anxiety, oversensitive personalities to begin with, etc.

I've had this too long, and followed the arc of psychiatry/neurology for my entire life .. a LONG time. TOO long.

If someone tells me something new tomorrow that blows all of my concepts out of the water, I'll change my tune. Until then, I'm pretty sure of my POV, which no one has to listen to.

Cheers,
D


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2008)

PS, if you are referring to the psychologist Herbert Langfeld, he ideas are WAY out of date. The man died in 1958.

The concepts of schizophrenia, or then dementia praecox... was it Kraepelin? who came up with that? My memory ... that has been changed as much as the concept that "homosexuality is a mental illness." Homosexuality and MPD have been removed from updated medcial/neurological instruction and research. Borderline is seen as mood dysregulaton. And as always, to make my point, they have yet to find a vaccine or any cure for AIDS. The brain is far more complex that the HIV.

Forgive me if I have the wrong person, but that man was heavily influenced by psychoanalysis which starts to disintegrate on many levels under the weight of recent neurological, cognitive, and genetic findings.

I guess I'm particularly bitter, as I wasted a good bit of my father's money (which he didn't have though I didn't know) in psychoanalysis. I believe I got worse, and the man had no boundaries. Nothing sinister, but my time with him was the least productive of all the treatment I've ever received.

BUT THIS IS IN MY EXPERIENCE, AND WE ARE ALL INFINITELY UNIQUE!


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2008)

Spirit said:


> DR/DP can be part of psychosis for some people.


And this is true! But it is a symptom, and not necessarily the first symptom of something horrendous.
DP/DR can potentially come with most mental illness, seizure, stroke, head trauma, etc., etc.
Neurologists seem to be most familiar with it (just my experience as well).

I'm sorry you've been through such Hell Spirit. But it is important you got the right diagnosis.
Again, so many here seem self-diagnosed, and that is dangerous. Not that I like shrinks but I know many other medical doctors who seem rather well-informed about DP when it shows up in bipolar, post-partum depression, or IBS!

MY GP knows more about it than past psychiatrists I've had. :evil:


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Dreamer* said:


> If you look at all of the "warning signs" of early onset schizoprhenia -- in more modern journals (2008 are already out of date) -- DP/DR is NOT a critical indicator of schizophrenia at all.
> D


great, i'm glad that sorted out the issue....we are all better informed now!
thanks, but I will say again, can people stop throwing a wobbly everytime 
people talk about psychiatry?? There is such thing as freedom of speech
and i think open-mindedness shouldn't be discouraged on the site either
because the anti-psychiatry movement is a necessary balance for the
psychiatric movement, otherwise we'd be living in a dictorship, right?


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2008)

Rozanne said:


> Dreamer* said:
> 
> 
> > If you look at all of the "warning signs" of early onset schizoprhenia -- in more modern journals (2008 are already out of date) -- DP/DR is NOT a critical indicator of schizophrenia at all.
> ...


Lordy, I have no problem with freedom of speech. I would think *you and I are having a debate, and one or two posters here indicate that you shouldn't say what you've said at all, and I don't agree with that.* I'm countering what you're saying, and am I guess personally _criticizing_ as I come from a different perspective, mainly what I discussed re: healthy people.

And as I said, I've come to educate psychiatrists, and I'm not lying. I have something of the good fortune of not having enough money to see a full-fledged psychiatrist. I had a full intake at my Uni Psych Center here which is great, and was assigned a medical psychiatric resident. Well, they all go through there couple of years with me and move on. They are M.D.s, psychiatrists, but they are in their residency. I get new students who sit in on sessions if I don't mind.

I end up teaching them what they don't learn in med school. My doctor now was required to study psychoanalysis (as it does have value) as well as DBT (which is based on Buddhist Thich Nhat Hahn) and regular psychotherapy and do inpatient work. The uni however has a heavy base in neurology or neuropsychiatry, but that doesn't mean that all sorts of other options for treatment aren't available.

For the first time this resident (well, he's gone and I didn't say goodbye, lol -- though he's focusing on inpatient here -- God help me I hope I don't see him in the near future!) :shock: ... anyway he said to me, "I am your employee, you are my employer, what do you want from me?"

Personally, I just don't like misinformation. And I hope I'm not spreading it around. However I do know that medicine is very imperfect and that it changes as a type this.

We all are entitled to our POV. And we are entitled to our way of dealing with the illnesses we have. But I also had to say, the profession I chose since a child was never conventional. I am artistic, and this illness prevents me from pursuing the most basic things I wanted to do. DP and DR have given me NOTHING. Anxiety has given me NOTHING. Without it, underneath it, I am a person with talent to enjoy and to share, and I can't do that. The pain, on the eve of turning 50 (I'm still clinging to 49, lol ... got 'til the end of the year) is excruciating.

I say, do what works for you.

And yes, I get crabby. 8) EDIT: We are entitled to "freedom of crabbiness here as well." :mrgreen: 
D


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2008)

Dreamer* said:


> Spirit said:
> 
> 
> > DR/DP can be part of psychosis for some people.
> ...


Yes,agreed.I have never seen DR/DP as an illness in itself,but in that im talking from my own experience.I dont know if there is a unique disorder of its own called depersonalization disorder ,I imagine if there is it would be extremley rare.

Spirit.


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## jimmyb (May 9, 2007)

Hi Bob, I got and still get some of the things you have. I had strange green geometric swirling smoke which turned to squares and shapes, once they were red once I saw a space invader (well weird).

Don't worry, its normal.


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## BobBasker (Oct 27, 2007)

(Fuck I just lost my whole post)

Well, good debate guys. Very... well, frightening, but informative.

I've read a fuckton about dissociation as an experience. From what I've read I gather that depersonalization is relatively low level dissociation over a long period of time (... well I guess the level depends personal experience). I believe that dissociation can get so bad that it starts changing basic behavior. At some point it starts causing hallucinations, loss of control of actions, amnesia, anaesthesia, etc... I base this on what I've read about dissociative trances and the dissociative anaesthetic class of psychoactive drugs. In fact, dissociative anaesthetics have been studied for their connection to psychosis, because of how similar the symptoms are.

Based on all this obsessive reading and self-diagnosing, I've concluded that I'm going insane. It cycles, so when I'm up I can get hopeful, telling myself this is just temporary and I fucked up the chemicals in my brain with drugs (pot and a small amount of acid), but it always cycles down, and the down cycles get lower every time, forcing me out of my optimism.

I'm so scared. I'm watching myself go insane. The visuals are getting worse, the dissociation is getting worse. I can barely recognize those closest to me and I'm always afraid of hurting them. It gets so bad my awareness of my surroundings hangs by a thread, and I can't keep a thought in my mind, save praying "why" to a god I've never accepted but have been forced through desperation to acknowledge. I'm in my final days. All I can think to do now is off myself because my intense fear of death isn't as bad as my intense fear of a life of insanity.


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## Ludovico (Feb 9, 2007)

This thread just goes to back up my claim that most DP sufferers have zero interest in recovery.


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2008)

Ludovico said:


> This thread just goes to back up my claim that most DP sufferers have zero interest in recovery.


I would say that is rather cruel to say considering I know individuals in their 50s who have lived their entire lives with DP/DR, have full-time jobs, children, etc. and still have DP/DR either episodically or have it under control with meds. My husband has a co-worker in his 60s who has had DR most of his life. He is an attorney.

There are also high-functioning individuals with schizophrenia, bipolar, depression. That doesn't mean they don't suffer. And I'm talking about businessmen, performers, artists, writers, attorneys, doctors, etc. And so many other non-professionals. I also have a friend who has had anxiety most of her life. She is 62. She has worked her own farm with her husband with great success, and is a Vet. But she chose never to have children (had her tubes tied in college) as she was so badly abused. I I recently read an article on a psychiatrist who went into the profession because he is high-functioning schizoprhenic. It CAN be done. Yes, he went to medical school! But of course he couldn't tell anyone. There is a famous Ivy league university professor who revealed (at age 60 something) that she is schizoprhenic. Note all of these people are not cured, and on meds, etc. People who were her that professor's "friends" suddenly dropped her like a hot potato.

I'd say, you'd never realize how many functioning people surround you who have mental illness. I know quite a few. And each day is a battle.

You cannot compare experience, you cannot claim to know how everyone else feels. And also quite a few mentally ill people go into mental health fields to help others. Read Kay Redfield Jamison, Ph.D. in Psychiatry who has, HAS bipolar.

*I hate statements like that, Ludovico, not you as I don't know you, as you are assuming that what YOUR experience is what everyone else here experiences. Also, as I recall, you have said you have a supportive family. Many don't.*

*To Bob Basker who still thinks he's going "crazy!" -- you're not! And you are self-diagnosing and driving yourself more batty. Your info on dissociation is incorrect. I don't know where you're getting that. Or you're reading a source on individuals who have more than DP/DR. Please find a decent doctor and get a proper diagnosis. Please! :mrgreen:

That is a huge problem here. Self-diagnosis.*

Ludovico, your comment however isn't very kind. Sorry. But we all have our own POVs. BUt how can you have the audacity to say that? I don't understand.
Sigh.
D


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## BobBasker (Oct 27, 2007)

I see a doctor, a very expensive one, and he has no idea what to say. He's basically just been trying different meds on me until we find one that works, and it sucks. I'm on invega and strattera, and I have some klonopin, but nothings helped so far. At this level, it would be very hard to function. I space out so bad when I drive I run lights and stop signs, so I've stopped driving. My memory is just miserable. I have zero energy, and yatta yatta yatta. A lot of me says this will go away, that it can't be this bad or get any worse. But then it does get worse. Ahh, I don't know why I do this, I know I can only help myself. My uncle had something very similar to what I have, and his was only bad for about a year, then it let up and was gone completely in about 3 years. I just have to buck up and wait it out.


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2008)

BobBasker said:


> I see a doctor, a very expensive one, and he has no idea what to say. He's basically just been trying different meds on me until we find one that works, and it sucks. I'm on invega and strattera, and I have some klonopin, but nothings helped so far. At this level, it would be very hard to function. I space out so bad when I drive I run lights and stop signs, so I've stopped driving. My memory is just miserable. I have zero energy, and yatta yatta yatta. A lot of me says this will go away, that it can't be this bad or get any worse. But then it does get worse. Ahh, I don't know why I do this, I know I can only help myself. My uncle had something very similar to what I have, and his was only bad for about a year, then it let up and was gone completely in about 3 years. I just have to buck up and wait it out.


OK Bob, this troubles me a bit. From http://www.rxlist.com

*INVEGA? (paliperidone) Extended-Release Tablets are indicated for the acute and maintenance treatment of schizophrenia [see Clinical Studies].

STRATTERA? (atomoxetine HCl) is a selective norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor. STRATTERA is indicated for the treatment of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD).*

It would seem your doctor has already jumped to some conclusions. I am NOT a doctor, but in my personal experience and from those on this board, these two drugs make DP/DR worse.

What seems to help a lot is Klonopin, and SSRI (such as Celexa), Neurontin, and Lamictal.

I highly suggest you go to the links on the board here .... including the research at Mt. Sinai and at the IoP in London.

I'm a tad :shock: at this combo. BUT I AM NOT YOUR DOCTOR, I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE IS SEEING. BUT IF HE IS "AT A LOSS" that isn't good!

Have a look at my website http://www.dreamchild.net on symptoms. Print it out for him. Have him look at the research on Depersonalization and its relation to ANXIETY.

My meds, 40mg Celexa/day, 200mg Lamictal a day, and my saving grace 6mg of Klonopin (clonazepam) a day.

*Also if ComfortablyNumb is around, he knows a LOT about drugs. Curious of his opinion.
I may be WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, but these meds don't make sense to me.*

Take Care,
Please report back.
Please look in the LINKS section. Please look on my website.
Intersting this also runs in your family. And I'm sorry at the severity of this. I've been there, and I found the right meds made a HUGE diff. Both the antipsychotic and the ADHD med ... well, both of this type of med made me worse.

*What diagnosis has your doctor given you? If he says, I don't know, he isn't asking you the right questions! Damn these people.* :evil:


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## Ludovico (Feb 9, 2007)

Dreamer:

I empathize with long term sufferers of DP very much. It's an awful condition, certainly the most unpleasant experience and element of my life. Lately I just find myself so angry when I come on this site and see the same people having the exact same discussions over and over. These silly metaphysical/philosophical/religious/existential conversations are are completely hypothetical to the point of being ridiculous. There are no answers within them. I still see so many sufferers of this awful condition who are operating under the strange delusion that if they _understand_ depersonalization, that they can get rid of it. Most of the evidence and my own experiences tell me that the exact opposite is true. Trying to recover from DP while constantly reading these type of articles just seems like a huge oxymoron to me. If a cocaine addict was trying to quit her habit while being married to a dealer, do you think she would have any success? These discussions are simply another symptom of anxiety and they are totally counterproductive.


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## BobBasker (Oct 27, 2007)

ludo, it's just my nature to try to understand it. I realize it's almost counter-productive, but its almost a compulsion. I've spent countless hours reading and reading about this crap. I have a need to understand it, even though I know it's probably impossible.

Thanks Dreamer, I think I'll stop the strattera tonight. Or at least decrease my dosage. And after the withdrawal from that is gone (if indeed there is any) I'll go off the invega and see if I get better.


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2008)

BobBasker said:


> ludo, it's just my nature to try to understand it. I realize it's almost counter-productive, but its almost a compulsion. I've spent countless hours reading and reading about this crap. I have a need to understand it, even though I know it's probably impossible.
> 
> Thanks Dreamer, I think I'll stop the strattera tonight. Or at least decrease my dosage. And after the withdrawal from that is gone (if indeed there is any) I'll go off the invega and see if I get better.


*Bob, Bob, Bob, I want to say, don't go off the meds because I, some stranger on an internet board, told you to.* 

But I am very curious why your doctor thinks these are the meds for you... what is his diagnosis? If he's flailing in the dark, he should say so. I always insist that ANY doctor explains to me what the PLAN is, the GOAL. What is the med for and why? What does he expect it do. Does he understand the term depersonalization/derealization!?

And again, Strattera can increase anxiety (terrible for me) and antipsychotics can make you feel horribly disconnected -- did so for me.

The doctor shouldn't be working in the dark, and if he/she is ... he? ... he should be forthcoming and not throw meds at you.

*Ludovico, you have to remember there are people here, as has been discussed who have more issues than DP/DR ... other illnesses of which DP/DR is a symptom. I understand your point, but each person is ... here I go ... unique. And you're seeing newbies come and go with the same questions as well.*


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## juliaisaunikorn (Sep 19, 2013)

I know this post is from ages ago but I am soo glad I am not the only one with these hallucinations I thought there might be more wrong with me than just dpdr I get pretty scared sometimes especially when I'm alone :/


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