# Interesting link



## slaytaniccyco (Dec 2, 2006)

I found this in a google search -

http://www.breggin.com/minortranqs.html

I wonder if those drugs can really do alot of damage as it says...I've taken all of them except anafranil. Kinda scary. :roll:


----------



## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

Man that link has some old drug's in it lol.

First off to the best of my knowledge buspar is not in any way shape or form a minor traquilizer. So that shows how much they know. It is however regarded by many as absolutly useless.

Also benzodiazepines do not cause brain shrinkage and act on the brain very differently then alcohol. Alcohol is a dopamine agonist and a nmda antagonist and noone is really sure how it act's on gaba. Noone really knows why alcohol causes brain damage but one theory is that it's due to it's action on the nmda receptor.

So in short there isint really any evidence to back up that benzodiazepines cause brain damage. They are also very different then the barbiturates mentioned in that paticular link. Barbiturates are many times more toxic then benzos. Often just a few pill's then the recomended dose was enough to kill a person.

Benzodiazepines (unless mixed with alcohol or other cns depressant's) are for all intensive purposes non toxic.

Also anafranil (clomipramine) is just a tricyclic anti-depressant and has no addictive properties at all. It's been used for year's and is considered safe.

I just skimmed this paper as im very hungry right now and want to eat but it just smack's of anti-med propaganda. Plus it look's very old and outdated.


----------



## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

While I totally agree that Dr. Breggin's site hasn't been updated in like YEARS, it's really ironic that one would dismiss facts that he's collected over some 40+ years of psychiatric practice as nothing more than "anti-med propaganda." The man IS a psychiatrist, it's not in his best interest to be anti-meds. But he is an ethical man who now spends most of his time testifying in court against pharmaceutical companies and the damage they're causing, and writes best selling "anti-meds" books that are based on facts, not propaganda.

Doctors often refer to alcohol as "liquid valium" cuz it does in fact act a lot like a Benzo.

"Although the issue has not been studied extensively here in the U.S. (BIG shock and surprise here), studies published in UK journals of medicine indicate that participants in at least one study who had used benzodiazepines for an average of 13.2 years had shrinkage greater than their peers in the control group."

just more of my anti-meds ramblings, as I take my Valium  
-rula


----------



## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

Benzodiazepines do share some thing's in common with alcohol but they are also alot different then alcohol and are miles safer.

Benzos do not cause organ damage whereas alcohol certainly does. As far as effect's go benzos do share some of the same effect's as alcohol when you take them in high doses (such as staggering memory loss etc) but they dont produce the high that alcohol does.

I think this is mainly due the the fact the alcohol act's on the dopamine receptor's as well as the nmda receptor. Benzos just act on the gaba-a receptor which produces the relaxation you get from both benzos and alcohol. It also causes the staggering and memory loss that you see with both drug's in high doses. Ever hear anyone say benzos are like alcohol without the high? Well that's why.

Benzos and alcohol are not interchangable drug's in any shape or form. They do have very different effect's on the body and brain.

Also i said it smack's of anti-med propaganda because he called buspar a minor tranquilizer which it isint in any way. He also for some reason mentioned anafranil which doesent fit in there at all.

I also laugh when you say he is a ethical man who now testifies against pharmaceutical companies and writes best selling book's on the subject. Do you think that maybe he has an agenda such as money? Or where you just being sarcastic and perhap's i missed it.


----------



## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

comfortably numb said:


> Benzos do not cause organ damage whereas alcohol certainly does.


Pink, are you serious? chronic benzo use causes liver failure just like alcohol. any foreign substance that needs to be flushed out of the body regularly is in no way "non-toxic". Tolerance to drugs is our liver learning and working hard to get rid of this medicine faster cuz it doesn't like it! (Pharma is also Latin for poison.)

Benzos are prescribed during alcohol detox, there's an obvious similarity in action. Now I'm no doctor, and I can google the net just as good as the next person to argue about things that no one knows for sure how and what it does in the brain or what neurotransmitter is involved for a FACT (PI sheets for all meds are very vague on the actual mechanism of action and use phrases like "it's *believed* that [insert benzo here] works by enhancing the activity of GABA) but I really don't care that much, cuz apparently my brain is also shrinking from my consumption of soy products, and I'm sure those studies were published by ethical, totally unbiased, non-dairy industry sponsored researchers.

btw, Buspar IS a minor tranquilizer, http://www.thefreedictionary.com/minor+tranquilizer. You might have to work harder to discredit Dr. Breggin  He's a Harvard graduate and he's worked for NIMH, founded ICSPP...but somehow on this board any attempt to point out the dangers of whatever can't possibly come without a price is shot down as silly propaganda.

off to take my valium, with a glass of soy milk :lol:


----------



## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

I dont think there is any evidence to suggest that benzodiazepines cause liver failure like alcohol does. Not every drug that passes through your liver causes liver damage. It all depend's on how easily you liver metabolizes the drug and benzos are metabolized quite easily.

Tolerance to the effect's of drug's usually has nothing to do with your liver. Tolerance happen's in the brain not the liver and has nothing to do with your liver not liking that drug.

Let's take opiates for example. They are metabolized by the liver yet they do absolutly no damage to it. Tolerance to the drug occur's when your brain is left with less of it's endogenous (it's own) opiates. It has nothing to do with your liver not liking it.

Also if your liver and body didnt like the drug why would it create a tolerance so the person would have to take more of the drug to get the same effect's? Doesent make much sense now does it.

Benzodiazepines are prescribed for alcohol detox because they calm the patient down and reduce the risk of seizure. Alcohol withdrawal is due to lack of gaba in your brain. When you take a benzo it raises the level of gaba up to a more normal level therefore calming the patient down abit again.

Alcohol and benzo withdrawal are similar but alcohol withdrawal is usually more severe. Also they may be similar but there action's are not identical by any mean's. Benzos are not dopamine agonist's and they do not have any nmda antagonism like alcohol does.

Well i guess i was wrong about buspar being classed as a minor tranquilizer. I have no idea why it would be classified as such seing as how it has no sedative action but there it is. I also looked up a few more online medical sites and buspar got lumped under misc sedatives and hypnotic's for some reason.

Minor tranquilizer is a term no longer used by the way. It was used in the past to distinguish drug's such as valium, meprobamate and other tranquilizer's used for anxiety from neuroleptic's such as haldol and thorazine which where used for more major problem's such as psychosis.

Also im not trying to discredit anyone. I was just pointing out something's that where wrong in what he said.


----------



## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

I'm not sure when this turned into "are benzos _exactly_ like alcohol" discussion, that was never the point. Both have apparently been shown to cause brain shrinkage, both cause memory impairment and liver dysfunction...The same way? I don't care. I take Valium cuz it helps me deal _right now_, but I'm not so delusional as to think that it's completely non-toxic or that I have nothing to worry about.

Tolerance does have_ something_ to do with your body's ability to flush out foreign substances faster and more efficiently, but yes you're right, it's not the whole story. I've been researching benzos and their effects on the body since I've been dp'ed, 2 years now, and not only do I personally know someone who suffered liver failure from chronic (20 years plus) Klonopin use, it's really not that hard to google this one either:
*
Health Hazards (of Benzodiazepines)*

Anaemia, *impairment of liver function*, chronic intoxication (headache, impaired vision, slurred speech) and depression.



> Also if your liver and body didnt like the drug why would it create a tolerance so the person would have to take more of the drug to get the same effect's? Doesent make much sense now does it.


I don't follow your logic...so your body really likes alcohol, caffeine, heroin, morphine, cannabis, etc. and that's why it develops tolerance to it, so you can have more next time? basic human biology doesn't read your mind, it just does what it was designed to do, flush out toxins.

If you're interested in real evidence of long term benzo damage, spend some time on the benzo board reading stories of users of 10-20-30 years plus...no one there is writing books for profit...yet, no one is ever truly agenda-free.


----------



## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

Well your right about this turning into a benzos are exactly like alcohol discussion. That was never the point it just got side tracked into that.

I personally have never read of liver damage being a major health hazard of using benzos. The only organ damage ive ever read relating to benzos was that halcion can cause kidney damage. There may be some more obscure benzos that can cause organ damage as well but by and large as far as psych drug's go benzos are one of the easiest on your body.

With all psychiatric drug's it's about risk's and benefit's. Personally im alot more worried about not getting my clonazepam script filled on time because of some goddamn big snowstorm this winter then getting liver damage from it.

I also take divalproex which is called epival or depakote depending on wheather you live in canada or the US. This drug is well known for causing liver failure as well as other nasty thing's such as pancreatis sometimes resulting in death. Does this scare me a little? Yes it does.

But it doesent stop me from taking the drug because my quality of life has improved dramatically since ive started taking it. My mood's are no longer going up and down like a yo yo on speed, im not having any manic flip out's anymore and i havent had any of those horrible black pit's of dysphoric mania since ive started taking it. So the chances of me having those side effect's are well worth the risk. Actually im totally vain as the hair loss thing tend's to worry me more as silly as that sound's.

I do think that some people on this board expect too much from there drug's and i think you said something to that affect in one of your above post's. Everything has a certain price and drug's are no different. There is no such thing as the perfect drug. Ive seen people give up on bipolar drug's that where working quite well just because they put on a lousy 10 pound's.

Oh and that anaemia, impairment of liver function, etc was the first one to come up on google when i put in health hazard's of benzodiazepine use. But that was from a home drug testing kit site so they most certainly have something to sell. Plus they could have been refering to barbiturates as they dont make much distinction there. Barbiturates have been know to be hard on the liver.

I will say that it's possible to get liver damage from benzodiazepine use as you pointed out someone you personally knew. But anything is possible really. I dont think it's something that the average person who uses benzos for anxiety is going to have to worry about.


----------

