# Questions for Christians



## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

I have a never ending personal quest to find a universal truth amongst the religions. In my studying the Bible, I've come across some big problems. I wonder if this is the point where I need to look to other religions to find the missing pieces.

Has hell always existed? (Always as in since the fall of Adam or before) The Bible hasn't always existed. Back in the days of Abraham and Isaac there was no written word of God. The written word didn't come into existence until Moses. If there was no written word, then how could the people find God if he only spoke to Abraham? God didn't use Abraham to reach the people. In fact, according to the Bible, only Abraham's family knew God. Look at the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. They had no Bible. They had no way of knowing God. God didn't command Abraham to to preach to the people, in fact he just told him he was going to destroy the city. How is it fair that God could not speak to those people at all, kill them with no warning, and send them to hell for all eternity? How does this make sense at all?

The Jews are supposedly God's chosen people. What about all the other people? How is it fair for the other people to not have a choice at all in their salvation... no choice at all, no record of God, no attempt from God to communicate with them, and after all of this, how is it fair that he can send those people to hell?


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

I can help with the last question. The Jews weren't necessarily God's chosen people in the sense that all others would be damned. The Jews were the tribe with which God entered into a contract. The Jews would worship Yaweh and no other gods (the Old Testament is less monotheistic than would be expect; there are numerous references to other gods, but Yaweh--God--is the greatest and self-proclaimed only One and True God). In return Yahweh would help them; he frees them from slavery in Egypt, brings them to Canaan, etc, etc. Essentially anyone who entered into the contract with Yahweh--believing in Him and only Him, following His laws--would be a "Jew." There is little attention given to the afterlife in the Old Testament and the idea of hell, at least the way most Christians see it now, didn't come along until much later. The "Chosen People" are those who believe in Yahweh and serve him. Basically anyone can be a "Chosen Person" and thus be good in God's book. As for no attempts at communication on God's part, the basic idea of Judaism is that God created the world and humanity, did what he had to do (all the stuff in the Old Testament), gave humanity his word, the Torah, and then left. We have the guidelines, but the rest is up to us. Our interpretations of the Torah are more important than the literal meanings of the words and the responsibility to be moral and upstanding people rests with us. God gave us the world and left it in our hands. This is why study of the Torah (Talmud) is emphasized as being so important to being Jewish. This my understanding of the basic idea of Judaism; how Christians interpret the Torah as the precursor to everything after Jesus is a whole other ballpark.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

Well I can't really agree with that. You can't become a jew. You're born a jew. The jews come from Abraham. A certain woman asked Jesus to forgive her and he said no because she wasn't a jew. Although the afterlife isn't talked about much in the old testament, it is talked about in the new testament. Hell wasn't created after Jesus was born was it?


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

The problem is that this question involves combining two different religions. I only have knowledge of the Jewish interpretation of the Torah. Yes, God's Kingdom or the Promised Land or whatever is reserved for Jews and yes you have to be born into it, according to Jewish tradition, but I'd assume Christians would reinterpret that part and say something like the Jews were the Chosen People to whom he gave the Old Testament, but then Jesus was sent and now the pact with the Jews is done and anyone can be saved. Who knows? Did Jesus really refuse to help someone because they weren't Jewish? I don't see that being very love your neighbor-y.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

Well the Torah as I understand it is the books of moses, which Christians also study in the old testament. The problem is, if you dont have the complete bible, then you can get a completely different religion, such as judaism. Christianity teaches that the books of moses were written for a certain time and that for this day and age, the new testament is for us. Yes, now anyone can be saved. But that's the problem here- back in the old testament the gentiles couldnt be saved. I dont know what the answer is to how that is fair, or if there is an answer for that.

And yes Jesus did turn a lady away, but read the passage- Matthew 15:22-28.

22And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Jesus originally came to set up a kingdom on earth as the king of the jews. He wasnt going to force this on them however, and was waiting on them to accept it. They didn't accept him though, and so he went with plan B- which opened it up to all people, except for this he had to die. In the passage, the children represent the jews and the dogs represent non jews.


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## SistA HazeL (Aug 10, 2008)

I'll come back to you for this one as I am going to bed now.

xx Sista Hazel xx


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

But there was no "salvation" in the Torah. Christianity as a religion, and therefpre terms such as "hell" and "salvation," did not yet exist. If you believe in Christianity and hell, then I guess you have to assume that hell and salvation always existed, but in Judaism, for which the Torah was written, these concepts played no role. To retroactively try to apply them in the Old Testament would be a bit absurd. The only way to really look at it from a Christian standpoint is to see Judaism as a completely different religion from which Christianity evolved. Don't try to understand the Torah from a Christian perspective, just look at it as the book that set the framework for the rest of the Bible.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2009)

If you want to find the universal truth between all religions/spiritualities/faiths-forget the trivial details....find the real message behind them all.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

egodeath said:


> But there was no "salvation" in the Torah. Christianity as a religion, and therefpre terms such as "hell" and "salvation," did not yet exist. If you believe in Christianity and hell, then I guess you have to assume that hell and salvation always existed, but in Judaism, for which the Torah was written, these concepts played no role. To retroactively try to apply them in the Old Testament would be a bit absurd. The only way to really look at it from a Christian standpoint is to see Judaism as a completely different religion from which Christianity evolved. Don't try to understand the Torah from a Christian perspective, just look at it as the book that set the framework for the rest of the Bible.


Well that's the problem Ryan, Christian's do retroactively apply concepts to the old testament.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

Well then it won't work right. It's like trying to solve a set of non-linear equations. There doesn't have to be answer; sometimes you can get close approximations, sometimes you can't.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

There has to be an answer for Christians though. Some kind of explanation or else their religion falls apart.


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## Mcren (Mar 30, 2009)

Ok ok, I have a bit of advice for some on here who cant find any other way to deal with your dp other than to "accept Christ" in the hopes that you will be "saved" by your lord and savior. Don't listen to your minds fucked up thoughts. Religion and faith won't help you any more or any less than the best medication out there. If anything it can make your dp worse, because there are so many holes in it, for example, Who wrote the bible? Why was it written? Did Jesus really rise from the dead? Was the world really created in seven days and the piece de la resistance Did Jesus really Die For our sins? Which brings you right back to the problem of dp itself which is the questioning your own existence and why you are here. Think logically, it helps, and quite significantly. (not meant to knock faith at all, just don't turn to it just because you have dp)


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

Mcren said:


> Ok ok, I have a bit of advice for some on here who cant find any other way to deal with your dp other than to "accept Christ" in the hopes that you will be "saved" by your lord and savior. Don't listen to your minds flower* up thoughts. Religion and faith won't help you any more or any less than the best medication out there. If anything it can make your dp worse, because there are so many holes in it, for example, Who wrote the bible? Why was it written? Did Jesus really rise from the dead? Was the world really created in seven days and the piece de la resistance Did Jesus really Die For our sins? Which brings you right back to the problem of dp itself which is the questioning your own existence and why you are here. Think logically, it helps, and quite significantly. (not meant to knock faith at all, just don't turn to it just because you have dp)


It's not about dp.


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## SistA HazeL (Aug 10, 2008)

Watch this video... about a guy who was taken to and experienced hell for 23 minutes.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/852697/23 ... e_edition/


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

SistA HazeL said:


> Watch this video... about a guy who was taken to and experienced hell for 23 minutes.
> 
> http://www.metacafe.com/watch/852697/23 ... e_edition/


Just a general comment - its interesting how something like religion can change the context of what is and isn't considered a mental health issue.

If my parents or girlfriend woke up at 3 in the morning to me screaming and saying the Lord had taken me to hell for 23 minutes, I would be taken to an emergency room and have a psychiatric evaluation. It happens to this christian guy and he goes on a media tour.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

I won't comment on the video as I can't watch it here at work and it seems off topic. I'll watch it sometime though and maybe start a different thread on what I think about it.


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## Mcren (Mar 30, 2009)

Matt210 said:


> SistA HazeL said:
> 
> 
> > Watch this video... about a guy who was taken to and experienced hell for 23 minutes.
> ...


Another example of how Christians or the moral majority in this country, Kus of this happened to me, like you said, id be in a psych ward and would probably never see the light of day again


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## SistA HazeL (Aug 10, 2008)

Matt210 said:


> SistA HazeL said:
> 
> 
> > Watch this video... about a guy who was taken to and experienced hell for 23 minutes.
> ...


Interesting way of putting it... I'm going to write a book called, "8 years of HELL on earth"


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## deadtoself (Apr 13, 2009)

Conjurus said:


> Has hell always existed? (Always as in since the fall of Adam or before)


Deutoronomy 32:22 _sounds_ like hell, but honestly I'm not sure if that is what it's describing. "For a fire has been kindled by my wrath, one that burns to the realm of death below. It will devour the earth and its harvests and set afire the foundations of the mountains."

Isaiah 66:22-24 talks about and end time prophecy... I think this will take place after the final judgement, but again, I'm no expert, just a believer. "'As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,' declares the Lord, 'so will your name and descendents endure... all mankind will come and bow down before me... And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched.'"

Daniel 12:2 says, about the end times, "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake; some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."



> The Bible hasn't always existed. Back in the days of Abraham and Isaac there was no written word of God. The written word didn't come into existence until Moses. If there was no written word, then how could the people find God if he only spoke to Abraham? God didn't use Abraham to reach the people. In fact, according to the Bible, only Abraham's family knew God. Look at the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. They had no Bible. They had no way of knowing God. God didn't command Abraham to to preach to the people, in fact he just told him he was going to destroy the city. How is it fair that God could not speak to those people at all, kill them with no warning, and send them to hell for all eternity? How does this make sense at all?


I think God _can_ make himself known to non-Israelites in the O.T.

Genesis 16 talks about the angel of the Lord appearing to Hagar (an Egyptian maidservant of Abraham's wife, Sarah). Hagar ended up also marrying Abraham, and when tension built between her and Sarah, she ran away. The angel of the Lord told blessed her and told her to go back.

Genesis 20:3-7 talks about God appearing to Abimelech, king of Gerar, after Abimelech had taken Sarah to marry her. God warned him that she was Abraham's wife (Abimelech thought she was just his sister).

Psalm 19:1-4 says that _everyone_ knows about God... "The heavens declare the glory of god; the skies proclaim the work of his hands... There is no speechh or language where there voice is not heard..."

Anyways... this is getting kinda long... but there's other examples... God also gave the Pharaoh that enslaved Joseph a dream, and then had Joseph interpret it... Daniel interpreted a dream for King Nebuchadnezzar, and also the writing on the wall by a hand that appeared to King Belshazzar during a drunken idol worship fest.

The Bible doesn't say much about Sodom and Gomorrah, just that they were wicked and sinning greatly against the Lord. I'm not gonna presume that God directly spoke to them or sent an angel as warning. Matter of fact, when the angels went to destroy the cities, it _does_ sound like it's their first physical visit. But in the one example of their wickedness that we're shown, they come over to Lot's house in a mob to have sex with the visitors. If they truly believed there was nothing wrong with it, if that was really their way of giving them a warm welcome, they wouldn't have threatened Lot when he tried to defend them and they wouldn't have tried to break the door down. They probably would have come individually or at least in smaller groups. Remember, these are the same visitors that Abraham and Lot both immediately recognized as being representatives of God. On both occasions, they bowed down to the visitors as soon as they saw them and insisted on giving them food and hospitality.



> The Jews are supposedly God's chosen people. What about all the other people? How is it fair for the other people to not have a choice at all in their salvation... no choice at all, no record of God, no attempt from God to communicate with them, and after all of this, how is it fair that he can send those people to hell?


I guess my point is that I think the Lord will judge each person according to how much of himself he has revealed to them. Some people will take a little truth and really seek God from that point. I think in one of the Psalms it says that if you truly ask God for wisdom, he will give it to you abundantly. But some people will see a little truth and reject it for fear of having to give account of yourself to the Creator. "But if from there you seek the Lord your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart." Deuteronomy 4:29


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## deadtoself (Apr 13, 2009)

Conjurus said:


> Well I can't really agree with that. You can't become a jew. You're born a jew. The jews come from Abraham. A certain woman asked Jesus to forgive her and he said no because she wasn't a jew. Although the afterlife isn't talked about much in the old testament, it is talked about in the new testament. Hell wasn't created after Jesus was born was it?


I'm not too sure, but I think even in the O.T. you could become a Jew. Obviously not by blood, but Exodus 12:48 says, "An alien living among you who wants to celebrate the Lord's Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part *like one born in the land... The same law applies to the native-born and the alien* living among you."


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

Don't get the religion confused with the race. Jew refers to the race. A gentile could not become that. However, an outsider could change to the religion of Judaism.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

Haven't read all the posts and I'm not debating, just sharing an opinion....I don't think Hell, in whatever way we each perceive it...has always existed. In the beginningless beginning there was only perfection.....A perfect kingdom. Man through his ignorance creates his own hell. Man believes in his ego ideas and in imperfection and then from that illusion of imperfection creates further imperfection and suffering and on the cycle goes. This idea of Ego seperation and of imperfection causes a man to "sin"....act ignorantly.


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## Mcren (Mar 30, 2009)

SistA HazeL said:


> Matt210 said:
> 
> 
> > SistA HazeL said:
> ...


Ya, if there is a hell, I can't imagine it being much worse than this. Can you?


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## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

I have an answer to the universal truth among religions. Im not a Christian though. All religions teach to focus on love. I realized this after I started meditating a certain way, i remember thinking i found zen and i now know why the Hari Krishnas dance. Basically i found out that meditating on love makes all the other types of meditation seem like dog shit. Meditation is just a fancy word for focusing or paying attention. There doesnt seem to be anything more worthy of attention than love.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

sunyata samsara said:


> I have an answer to the universal truth among religions. Im not a Christian though. All religions teach to focus on love. I realized this after I started meditating a certain way, i remember thinking i found zen and i now know why the Hari Krishnas dance. Basically i found out that meditating on love makes all the other types of meditation seem like dog shit. Meditation is just a fancy word for focusing or paying attention. There doesnt seem to be anything more worthy of attention than love.


Yeah but what happens when you experience something inside of you that isn't loving like rage, jealousy, murderous impulses etc do you push them away and try focus on love, do you try and brush them under the carpet and ignore them? Because that is what most religions teach and it has screwed up the world because it means people are not taking responsibility for their dark side, they are commanded to love so they bury their non loving aspects away which then get projected onto scapegoat groups and communities which then get killed, this is the way it has been for thousands of years and has led to pure bloodshed and very little love. In my view the only way out of this is to embrace our dark side, to have a few words with Satan and see what he has to say so his words are brought into the light


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## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Pablo said:


> Yeah but what happens when you experience something inside of you that isn't loving like rage, jealousy, murderous impulses etc do you push them away and try focus on love, do you try and brush them under the carpet and ignore them? Because that is what most religions teach and it has screwed up the world because it means people are not taking responsibility for their dark side, they are commanded to love so they bury their non loving aspects away which then get projected onto scapegoat groups and communities which then get killed, this is the way it has been for thousands of years and has led to pure bloodshed and very little love. In my view the only way out of this is to embrace our dark side, to have a few words with Satan and see what he has to say so his words are brought into the light


i enjoy rage, you can channel it into love if you want. Rage is just extreme emotion. Religions are stupid because they are meant for mass consumption. There is very little spirituality in religion and people should realize that and take their own path. Basically there is religion and there is yoga aka tantra. Religion is based on do this dont do that believe this dont believe that like i said not much spirituality. Yoga and Tantra which are the same thing yoga means union and tantra means technique are actual practices to experience what the mystics experienced for yourself. Too bad in the US Yoga means stretching exercises lol. I wonder why the west has gone full retard when it comes to spirituality.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

sunyata samsara said:


> i enjoy rage, you can channel it into love if you want. Rage is just extreme emotion. Religions are stupid because they are meant for mass consumption. There is very little spirituality in religion and people should realize that and take their own path. Basically there is religion and there is yoga aka tantra. Religion is based on do this dont do that believe this dont believe that like i said not much spirituality. Yoga and Tantra which are the same thing yoga means union and tantra means technique are actual practices to experience what the mystics experienced for yourself. Too bad in the US Yoga means stretching exercises lol. I wonder why the west has gone full retard when it comes to spirituality.


I agree. The thing that a lot of people don't realise is that the literal reading of scripture in religion is a relatively new concept, for over a thousand years most of the main religions were seen as allegorical, mythological, or guides for your subconscious by most the people practising; it is a quite new development for people to read the scriptures from the point of view of their left logical brain where they actually believe Eve was made from Adam's rib etc in the literal sense. So when religions eventually go back to their esoteric spiritual function then they are just returning to their original intention not developing into something new, but while people are interpreting them literally they are just confusing the whole point of them which just causes problems in the world.

My view about why the west has gone full retard about spirituality is that in reality the majority of people don't want spirituality even if many say they do, because in my view spirituality is all about facing suffering, it is all about embracing confusion, fear and insecurity. Whereas the average person will do almost anything to avoid facing up to that and spend all their time trying to solidify a constantly changing world and even twist religious and spiritual teachings to help do this. Personally that is the way I used to be in that I would do all I could to avoid suffering, it is only through getting DP and through coming to a dead end with the approach that I realised that approach doesn't work and you actually create more suffering by trying to avoid suffering, but it took an extreme crisis to realise this otherwise I would probably be trying the other approach for the rest of my life.


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## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Pablo said:


> I agree. The thing that a lot of people don't realise is that the literal reading of scripture in religion is a relatively new concept, for over a thousand years most of the main religions were seen as allegorical, mythological, or guides for your subconscious by most the people practising; it is a quite new development for people to read the scriptures from the point of view of their left logical brain where they actually believe Eve was made from Adam's rib etc in the literal sense. So when religions eventually go back to their esoteric spiritual function then they are just returning to their original intention not developing into something new, but while people are interpreting them literally they are just confusing the whole point of them which just causes problems in the world.
> 
> My view about why the west has gone full retard about spirituality is that in reality the majority of people don't want spirituality even if many say they do, because in my view spirituality is all about facing suffering, it is all about embracing confusion, fear and insecurity. Whereas the average person will do almost anything to avoid facing up to that and spend all their time trying to solidify a constantly changing world and even twist religious and spiritual teachings to help do this. Personally that is the way I used to be in that I would do all I could to avoid suffering, it is only through getting DP and through coming to a dead end with the approach that I realised that approach doesn't work and you actually create more suffering by trying to avoid suffering, but it took an extreme crisis to realise this otherwise I would probably be trying the other approach for the rest of my life.


I totally agree that spirituality is about facing suffering, embracing confusion, fear and insecurity.


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