# Thoughts.



## Martinelv

How can god allow 6 people to die in a coach crash, and on the same day allow a convicted rapist to win ?7m on the lottery ?

Thoughts please. (except the 'he moves in mysterious ways' one).


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## Guest

Well Martin, since you seem to be blaming God for these recent problems then you must now believe in a god huh? The last I checked, you blasphemized anyone for having any kind of belief in god, religion, etc..Well, now that we know there is indeed a god and the he causes many many problems, we will have our own little scapegoat. When we are in a drunken stupor, when we get mugged on the streets, when manchester united loses, when someone decides to blow up a streetmarket in the middle east, then we can blame god. Forget the fact that we all have a brain and this supposed thing called free will that allows us to decide and think and feel on our own. Forget the fact that the decision making is really up to us. I could go kill a bunch of people right now because im not havign a real good day, would we blame God for that?


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## Martinelv

Yes, NADIDAS, I've given in to the relentless pounding at the rim of my consciousness and become a black sheep in the flock.

Free will is it ? Super. Great. That's alright then.

But, er, if you were a father, an all loving father, would you let your children do whatever they liked...suffer, cause suffering, just because they had free will ? Wouldn't you be tempted, just an ickle bit, to stop it now and again? Incidently, do babies have free will ? Wot if someone rapes and murders a baby ?

Still, if it's free will, then free will it is. GOD IS GREAT !


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## lone wolf

I do not know how Christianity or other monotheistic religions perceive God, but as religious people seem to be praying quite a lot they must believe that there is a God who listens to their prayers. That kind of listening God must have some kind of personal identity and thinking skills. That's why God - if s/he has really created this universe - then must be responsible for the drawbacks of human society and also nature; e.g. parasites, diseases or simply the fact that if some creature wants to live, another one has to die for food... That kind of God must be really sadistic! Of course s/he could have created the world differently, if s/he wanted to? (Oh, now I forgot Satan altogether, who is the ultimate scapegoat!!)

Well, no more rambling. I could say it is the universe, which is God. And the universe can't work any other way than this. Shitty thing, but what can we do? At least there are also beautiful things in this universe and not just suffering and death - so I think life is worth living, although it will end inevitably someday.


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## Guest

Most loving parents eventually have to let go and let their kids learn how to deal with life on their own. God is no different, eventually im sure he sais "Im gonna throw you idiots out into the wolves because you'll never learn a damn thing if I don't."

I sure don't want God controlling this earth or me for that matter. That would take away the element of surprise this life brings. Now, why doesn't God control these things to a certain extent and stop some of these acts of evil that we see on the news everyday? If you can find the answer to that then i'll build a shrine around you and worship your feet(im waiting for martin to find the answer so i can finally have an excuse to worship him.)


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## GavinD

I dont worship any particular god or adhere to any particular creed, but I always have a good answer to this question. If god or whatever higher power created the earth did it and then controlled everything that happened, then what point would there have been in creating it in the first place? None. I don't see it so much as free will as uncertainty, chance. If the universe and the course of history was all planned and controlled then it would be pointless (okay some of you might already think it is). But because nothing is certain, we have free reign to behave exactly as we choose. I believe that if we choose to love and be good to our fellow man and woman then we create our own meaning in life and the universe seems not so pointless.

g


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## Guest

I was just thinking...and what exactly can God do to stop these things? Somehow change the mind of the rapist and make him stop...raping people?


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## JasonFar

It's a horrible world, yet a brilliant world. I think we can all agree on these two things, at least the intellectuals here (or, rather, anyone that thinks). 

SO much potential for joy, raising-consciousness, happiness, love, all that great stuff. Experience beyond what we know.

Yet, so many obstacles. Death, illness, hate, past, greed, naivity, technology (that could go on the top list too), lonliness, confusion, etc.

Sometimes when I'm sad I find myself in a state of thought that this post-modern world we live in is just for the worse; alienation, confusion, lonliness, feeling of existential abandonment. But at other times, I realize I love some of the advances that the world brings with it.

It's all subjective!

Let's just hope at the end there's a light for EVERYBODY AND EVERYTHING... "One man looks at a dying bird and sees nothing but unanswered pain; another man sees that dying bird, and feels the Glory." -- from Marty's favorite movie (!) , THE THIN RED LINE.

I liked Gavin's post. And I think God exists.


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## Martinelv

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

The 'Free Will' answer is not an answer at all, it's an excuse. An apology dreamed up by humans on behalf of the god idea. If you think about it, it doesn't answer anything. It's the ultimate of ultimate cop-outs. I think it could quite possibly be the last step backwards in religious 'thinking'.

I like Gav's post too, but the irony of it is that what he said is what is basically humanist (not atheist) philosophy. WE create meaning, purpose, there is no need for a god. We are floating in a universe that doesn't give a shit either way to our fate.


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## Guest

Maybe the reason that "god" can allow bad things to happen and the idea of free will are more complex then most people realize. Perhaps we are all fragments of god existing within its imagination in dream world percieved by the 5 senses. Isnt it strange that our mind cannot be percieved by these senses yet it exists? But according to science anything that cannot be quantified and measured does not exist yet nobody can deny that we have minds. Maybe the reason that bad things happens is that "god" is only as good as the collective whole of all lifeforms. That what "god" is is really the universe itself, the sum total of all self awareness in all its forms. I myself believe in reincarnation, synchronicity and the collective unconcious. And if you believe in such things then you have to realize "bad" is only a perception and that people who die do so knowingly on an sub concious level because its there time to go. If you believe in god then you probably believe in an after life and so none of us really die. You cant blaim god for the actions of a murderer, you have to look at the root of the problem and that is the enviroment we all share. Instead of blaiming god maybe we should try and make this world better and take the intiative for ourselves, we have just as much power as "god" does to change things on this world.


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## Guest

lat


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## Martinelv

I've just thought of something. If God ultimate gift to us is free will, and thusly never intervenes in our affairs, then.....what's the point in prayer? Surely it would piss him off a bit if he heard all these millions of prayers and complaints, when he had given us such a wonderfull gift. I'd think twice before I pray next time, if I were you.

Incidently, and I keep track of these things....do you know where Jesus appeared when the children were dying in Beslan ? Yes, you guessed it, his image was discovered in the middle of a grapefruit somewhere in North Carolina ! Go dude, go !!


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## Martinelv

I've just thought of something. If God ultimate gift to us is free will, and thusly never intervenes in our affairs, then.....what's the point in prayer? Surely it would piss him off a bit if he heard all these millions of prayers and complaints, when he had given us such a wonderfull gift. I'd think twice before I pray next time, if I were you.

Incidently, and I keep track of these things....do you know where Jesus appeared when the children were dying in Beslan ? Yes, you guessed it, his image was discovered in the middle of a grapefruit somewhere in North Carolina ! Go dude, go !!


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## Phill

I saw The Thin Red Line the other day. It was a good movie!!!


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## Phill

I saw The Thin Red Line the other day. It was a good movie!!!


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## Guest

I'm with you on this Martin - the whole idea is bunkum. Clearly the universe doesn't give a toss about us one way or the other. As Dawkins said somewhere, if you believe in God, then the existence of lots of messed-up stuff is a problem that you have to explain. If you don't believe in God, then some messed-up stuff is exactly what you'd expect from a universe that's largely governed by chance, so there's no problem (in the sense of nothing to explain).

Depending on where you are, or what scale you look at things, stuff is either "good" or "bad", depending on your point of view, or the point of view of the thing you take on. People get all gooey about, say, a paradise island, but we just happen to have evolved to be adapted to that situation and find it "beautiful" and "good". OTOH, it's hell for anaerobic bacteria (?is it?).

There are oases of niceness (as we'd think of it in _human _terms), but most of the universe is just random ultraviolence.

All the more reason to preserve what little good we find or create - every little drop is precious.


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## Guest

I'm with you on this Martin - the whole idea is bunkum. Clearly the universe doesn't give a toss about us one way or the other. As Dawkins said somewhere, if you believe in God, then the existence of lots of messed-up stuff is a problem that you have to explain. If you don't believe in God, then some messed-up stuff is exactly what you'd expect from a universe that's largely governed by chance, so there's no problem (in the sense of nothing to explain).

Depending on where you are, or what scale you look at things, stuff is either "good" or "bad", depending on your point of view, or the point of view of the thing you take on. People get all gooey about, say, a paradise island, but we just happen to have evolved to be adapted to that situation and find it "beautiful" and "good". OTOH, it's hell for anaerobic bacteria (?is it?).

There are oases of niceness (as we'd think of it in _human _terms), but most of the universe is just random ultraviolence.

All the more reason to preserve what little good we find or create - every little drop is precious.


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## JasonFar

> if you believe in God, then the existence of lots of messed-up stuff is a problem that you have to explain.


I think that most of the "messed-up" stuff in this world is, well, not neccessarily something to be placed on God. I realize that the society we live in today is full of violence and all that "messed-up-jazz", but when I think of messed-up (and I think it's what you are implying by it as well), I think of _Human_ suffering, our messy _Human_ world, correct? I'd assume so, since we don't really know of any other world. And I don't think you can be referring to the universe or nature in itself, because really, it seems to be the root of about 1% of that messed up stuff. No, it's all man-created. All the shit in the world is because of man's faults in the past. Our misdecisions, our immoral behaviors, or lack of any respect for other species... Us.

Bah I'm too tired I'll type later, I swear.


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## JasonFar

> if you believe in God, then the existence of lots of messed-up stuff is a problem that you have to explain.


I think that most of the "messed-up" stuff in this world is, well, not neccessarily something to be placed on God. I realize that the society we live in today is full of violence and all that "messed-up-jazz", but when I think of messed-up (and I think it's what you are implying by it as well), I think of _Human_ suffering, our messy _Human_ world, correct? I'd assume so, since we don't really know of any other world. And I don't think you can be referring to the universe or nature in itself, because really, it seems to be the root of about 1% of that messed up stuff. No, it's all man-created. All the shit in the world is because of man's faults in the past. Our misdecisions, our immoral behaviors, or lack of any respect for other species... Us.

Bah I'm too tired I'll type later, I swear.


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## Guest

I think the _whole thing _is messed up - nature included - _from the human point of view_. Any standards around here, by which things are being judged good or bad, are our own, and by _those _standards, _if _there were a creator God, then He would have to be judged evil.

For no ordinary human being, of ordinary morality, would create a world in which so much horror and nastiness (again, I stress, "horror" and "nastiness" from the human point of view) inheres _in nature itself_(famously "red in tooth and claw"), in which so much is left to chance, in which there is so much suffering due to birth, old age, illness, and death in a multitude of gruesome guises.

And I include here the life circumstances of human beings, to the extent that those circumstances lead them to do evil. I'm not saying there's no such thing as freewill, nor that evildoers shouldn't be held responsible and punished, but it's surely obvious that one of the most horrific facts about this universe is that "some are born to sweet delight, some are born to endless night". It's possible to say that, up to a certain point, a human being has a choice. But _beyond _that "point" (a grey area, to be sure), there's often nothing that can be done, things having gone too far, evil being to a large extent a habitual reaction. A child who is beaten for no good reason almost every day of his young life might, up to a certain age, have been lifted from that insanity, and his life yet saved; absent that, he is may well become a Hitler. It partly depends on how strong a moral constitution the child has - but that, again, is a function of birth, and nobody chose, before coming into this world, to be a morally weak entity.

There _is _no rhyme or reason to it all - from the _human _point of view.

There is a kind of rhyme and reason to the universe, but it is totally careless, totally mechanical, innocent, a "monster of energy" (as Nietzsche called it). The world is an object worthy of awe, certainly; but of _worship_? I don't think so.


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