# Percorten. Positive results for DP treatment.



## ludwig80 (Nov 14, 2006)

I saw this on another board and apparently it was used to treat DP in POWs at one point. Just read the case studies if you want, the rest has a lot of medical terms I do not understand.

SUBJECT>Victor Frankl Study Translated 
POSTER>James 
EMAIL>[email protected] 
DATE>Monday, 18 January 1999, at 12:01 a.m.

I've got the translation of the Frankl reasearch about DP translated from the original German text. I haven't quite finished studying it mysef, but when I do I will send a copy to anyone who is interested. For those of you not familiar with this research, Frankl proposes a therapy based on the use of desicortiserone. Apparently there was someone from the old board who was completely cured using this treatment. From what I understand, however, desicortiserone is only available in Germany. I will verify this, as I have a connection in Germany (who also translated this for us) who can find out.

From the neurological department of the Hospital of the City of Vienna (Head: University assistant professor Dr. Viktor E. Frankl)

Psychadynamy and Hypocorticosis: 
We've already given notice elsewhere that cases of DP have gotten more numerous in post-war times - an observation that in the meantime has been confirmed by Meng(2) in Basel. In our former publication we've also pointed out that together with DP there has been observed an arterial hypotonia so that, regarding the relations between DP and the "hypotonia of consciousness" - as named by Berze- that we've noticed in other circumstances (3), you could conclude that this arterial hypotonia goes together with a hypotonia of consciousness.Because of the occasional linkage of those two symptoms it was obvious to treat DP with a medication therapy that would induce an increased blood pressure (Jagic (4)). So we actually tried Cormaine, coffeine, strychnine, Movellan and similar substances that left no definite effect though; we only saw a success in treatment when we started to use hormones of the cortex of the suprarenal gland [outer part of those glands], where now remarkably the compounds showed striking success even in those cases where blood pressure had been normal. In a preliminary notice at the club for psychiatry and neurology in Vienna (meeting of November 22nd, 1948), and in a publication based on it, published in the medical weekly magazine in Switzerland (5), whose manuscript has been finished end of January 1949, we've concludingly presented ourselves the question if and how far the therapeutical experiences ex juvantibus could give a pathological or aetiological hint on relations between DP and hypadrenia [underfunction of the suprarenal gland]. This question had to seem even more justified as in many of our cases DP was not only combined with arterial hypotonia (Bjure and Laurell, Ghrist and Brown, Luft and Sjoegren, Kisch, von Schellong)(6), but also embedded in a psychasthenical syndrome [weakened psychically]. Psychical, but also general asthenia [weakness], also linked to with arterial hypotonia, is a leading symptom of Addison's disease though. In fact it is the case that this combination of psychasthenia and hypotonia rule the symptomatical foreground of the form of this disease that especially Ehrman and Dinkin, Ettelsorx, Goldzieher, Kappert, Hordes and Steinfeld have studied. In his monography especially Kappert noted clearly that in this conditions -that he described as "relative insufficiency of the cortex" - psychical disorders like disorders of the ability to concentrate or memorize rule the picture so strongly that in this cases only too often the wrong diagnosis of neurasthenia [neurological weakness]has been given. If the coherence between DP and Addison's disease really existed (as assumed by us), then it should be expected that not only cases of DP, but also cases of Addison's disease have showed up more in war and post-war times. In fact some observations seem to hint in this direction (Bernhardt ( and Pokorny (9)). It is near at hand that, regarding the aetiology [source of the illness], the conditions of nutrition in war countries have been relevant (Mach, Kappert, Jonquieres); how a deficite of vitamins of the B-complex plays a role in this, is also known (Glass, Step, Verzaer, Kappert, Bickel, Vanotti, Goldzieher, Gsell). In any case, in malnourished refugees Vehlinger could observe histologically impoverishment of the fat in the suprarenal gland and shrinkage of its cortex; and Glass found autoptical atrophic changes [shrinking]on the suprarenal glands in conditions of hunger. It is known that high malnutrition can damage the inner secretorical organs (see among others Auerswald and Bornschein (10)); histological changes in the glands of concentration camp prisoners who died shortly after their rescue were noted by Lamy, M. Lamotte and S. Lamotte-Barillon. Together with malnutrition certainly also the psychological traumata have played a role; we know from the gonads that severe emotional trauma can lead to changes on them that can even be proven anatomically-histologically (Stieve, Steinach, Schmalzbachl). What's true for gonads, might be true for the suprarenal glands. Following we would like to present you a collection of related cases...

Case no. 1: Herta H. Dizziness, fainting spells, weakness, showing signs of fatigue easily; insomnia and depression. Can take heat very badly. Unable to workfor years. "I feel like in a trance, like being halfway unconscious, like in a dream. Everything souds like it's coming from a far distance; is so strange and unreal. Things don't get to me. I can't concentrate on anything; I'm very forgetful." After a few days, during which the patient took 1, 2, then 3 tablets of Percorten (Ciba), she feels "mentally alert". This is in proportion to the dosage. In spite of the problematic test results (Tropp and Koehler, Robinson and so forth) on function disorders of the suprarenal gland, we also tried in this case to verify our pathenogenic assumptions in the laboratory and therefore we did the test after Marx and Perez Viloria, which proved to show positive results inasmuch as the patient produced without medical preparation in the first hour, 455, in the first 4 hours 1035 ccm of urine, whereas the amounts of urine after an injection of Percorten were 620 and 1120 ccm. Furthermore we follow the theory of Kappert, though, according to which there's a diagnostic significance to the "curing test" already. In fact, the increase of symptoms under salt deprivation and maybe at the same time calcium load, gives in literature a hint to the existence of a function disorder of the suprarenal gland. This was true as well in our case # 1. After deprivation of salt for 3 days while simultaneously being administered 8.3 g of calcium: "Headache, feeling of trance; everything aroud me looks like seen through a veil; complete fatigue of the memory; complete feeling of emptiness, agonizing lethargy, daze." Ater being given salt (saline): "Livened, freshened, less dazed, things around me are clearer." After being given Percorten: "Mentally fresh and alert; good feeling as if everything functioned alright in my body."

Case no. 2 Dr Kritz T. POW for years hunger edema Fatigue, feeling faint, lack of energy, inability to concentrate, forgetfulness. "It is like the spring inside myself has been broken." Besides the DP, reports the feeling of having experienced everything before (Deja Vu). After one tablet of Percorten per day: "definitely better; definitely more alert; fresh,lively; most of all no more DP."

Case no. 3: Dr. Heinz K. Fatigue; being tired in the morning; unable to concentrate in the afternoon; depressed mood. Can't take heat and sun very well. Tend to inflammation of the nerves. Low blood pressure. After 2 tablets of Percorten per day: "Totally surprised" about "still being so alert". A couple of days later without Percorten: "The striking improvement has gone; very fatigued, headache." After taking 2 tablets of Percorten per day for 20 days, then 1 for 10 days: "All the symptoms have completely vanished. I am in a completely normal state and feel like I have been born again."

Case no. 4: Fritz W., Medical student Lethargic and depressed. "I have the feeling of not being there; I feel like without a body; everything seems to be far away." Often low body temperature; Takes sun and heat very badly. RR 130 (low BP). After 6 days of being given 1-3 tablets of Percorten patient says this: "DP has completely vanished; vitality strongly increased; every feeling of not being in the mood has gone; I like to work and feel like I am in complete harmony".

Case no. 5: Ellriede W., student Extremely forgetful, paranoid, feeling of everything being very far away and out of reach - as if she "couldn't get into it with her sense organs" and was "standing apart, being a stranger to it all". RR 125. After 1-2 Percorten per day, "less tired, feeling of being beyond things has gone". As soon as pausing with the intake of the medicine, patient feels "worse again" and has "the feeling of not getting to things again". Takes 2 tablets for a while and feels "strikingly better, the feeling of being beyond things doesn't come back anymore; paranoia is still there, but it's easier to fight, to cope with it." Finally even after stopping of the medication the feeling of estrangement doesn't come back.

Case no. 6: Karl P., student Headache, fatigue, constant sleepiness, emotionally cold, feeling estranged, feeling of having become another man; "weak feeling for reality". Electroshocks have shown no improvement. RR140. After 1-3 Percorten per day; "being able to achieve more. The medication somehow kicks in, gets something rolling." Without Percorten, headache again. Gets 1 vial of Percorten intramuscular every week then: "Obviously better; can learn much better, no more headache, no more sleepiness during the day, no more fatigue; less feeling estranged and more feeling for reality." Patient can go without Percorten after a while and says: "I'm happy with my state. Percorten is the only medication that has ever helped me and that ever made me feel that something works."

Case no. 7: Hans D. , POW, hunger edema Dazed, feeling of pressure in the head; "total apathy; absentminded", forgetfulness - "I'm lacking the words" - no appetite, takes heat and sun badly. RR 120. After 1-2 Percorten per day: "a freer feeling; daze and headache improved; absentmindedness improved, depression gone". Improvement stays even without Percorten.

Case no. 8: Karl H. POW, hunger edema. Now headache, easily tired, fatigue, loss of appetite, difficulty concentrating, feeling as if being not really alive, everything is like in a dream. Takes the sun not well. RR110. After 5 mg Percorten intramuscular "in a better mood". After a second injection "more rested, although working again, no more headaches, can concentrate good now and am very content with my state." Improvement stays even without Percorten.

case no.9: Johann G. Since years fatigue, dizziness, lack of will, loss of self-esteem, generally depressed mood; heat - patient is train conductor! - is taken not very well now. RR 110. After 1-2 Percorten per day "Improvement of lack of will, feeling less dazed - am less depressed - grouchy and pessimistic mood has vanished - have more will to live and self-confidence"

case no.10: Hermann Sch. Unable to concentrate, in a daze, loss of appetite, pains in the whole body, can take the sun anymore now. Furthermore "Everything's like a movie; but I'm not interested - it seems to me as if I lost myself." RR160 (!) After 2 Percorten per day "for the first time in a long time very well, very alert and confident, not the least difficulties concentrating anymore."

case no.11: Friedrich G. Forgetfulness, headache. Mentions further "only what's in my range of vision exists, everything else is kind of unreal. Everything moves like in a movie, if what's experienced is over, it's forgotten and left no mark" Heat is felt to be very uncomfortable. RR 140. After taking Percorten patient feels much better; "the range of vision has widened; earlier on I could only take in what I saw, now everything is like one room to me, as if the streets were wider." Improvement stays even after stopping medication.

case no. 12: Johann Sch. vague stomach and abdominal problems; furthermore tiredness, dizziness, headache, paraesthesy [abnormal feeling of the body like tingling and so forth]. Psychical: "I'm not interested in anything anymore" RR 130. Under Percorten "I can communicate and above all, read, whereas I could never concentrate before."

case no. 13: Adolf P. "I don't feel anything of existence. I'm so to speak blind to existence. There's no contact between me and my surroundings: that's how unreal everything is. I feel like in a dungeon; like in a capsula, like a living dead body. Everything is strange to me" Blood pressure normal. Under Percorten: "Feel more bodily existence, am more hopeful, more calm, in a good mood, the bad mood has vanished, I have good ideas and finally contact with other people again." In this case we possibly with an ended schizophrenic spell by the way, and also in the next case the diagnosis of schizophrenia has been made from another authoritative side:

case no. 14: Franz T. "Everything is like strange, silent and dead; my consciousness is burdened. All earthly existence seems to have vanished from my senses like in a dream; my earlier impressions seem to be far back in time, I'm kept away from normal life, I've lost all the energy." Patient is obviously dithery and mentions sterotype complaints of schizophrenic nature, has been unable to work for some time and thinks about killing himself. Lately a shock therapy has been recommended to him. Blood pressure normal. Under 1 Percorten for 2 days "I'm more alert, tonight I found the best and calmest sleep since the beginning of my sickness." Under 2 Percorten per day: "Loss of concentration decreases, I can finally normally read again, don't suffer from poverty of thoughts anymore, the whole mental work is much less disturbed, everything is clearer, more real - the world has become more real; it is as if the consciuousness worked itself through a veil that seems to keep getting more translucent; I have initiative, am interested in everything, joy of life and contact with people, handling them is more natural somehow, am full of a good mood and feel able to work and take a job again, and also my friends were totally surprised about my improved state." Finally "not even a trace of a disturbance anymore" Of course we deal with a singular case here for now. Anyway, this case should lead us to think, even more so as there can hints be found in literature that seem to speak for relations between schizophrenia and functional disorders of the cortex of the suprarenal glands (even if these relations might have few to do with the nature of psychosis). Actually Schachter (12) has found a predominance of low blood pressure in schizophrenics, and Weber (13), Freeman, Hoskins and Sleeper could prove that the blood pressure in schizophrenics is abnormally low in general. Finally in this casuistic context we'll repeat an excerpt from a case history that Dr. Franz Bruha gave us:

Therese K., 35 years. Complaints: dizziness -"I am not myself, I'm always so dazed, drowsy. I'm not really alive." GU 1946 +30%, 1948 1%. Bellergal without effect. From another source an operation of the thyroid gland has been proposed. Thyroid gland actually enlargened. Trembling of the fingers. Chvostek test positive on the left. RR 105. Patient has been given 1 tablet of Percorten 3 times a day now. After 5 days she felt an "definite relief, and stated a little later: " The tablets are very good for me. It is as I've been revived. I enjoy life again. Enjoy working, being with my child. I feel so alert, am interested in everything." Blood pressure stayed low though (RR 100).

Regarding the result of all these examinations and thoughts we've concluded this in our memo: there are cases of DP where this symptom is the part of a whole psychastenic syndrom [weakness of the psyche], where this psychasthenic syndrom is the psychical correlative of an addisonoid asthenia [weakness like from Addison's disease] or adynamy [general weakness], for which reason we propose the term "psychadynamia" for this syndrom. But, further than this result this seems to lead to more general consequences. From here there opens a perspective on the evolution of the term of neurosis: in a first phase there's been a fusion of the terms "neurasthenia, psychastenia - neuropathy [illnesses of the nerves]- psychiopathy" into the collective term of neurosis, whereas in the second phase - in which we seem to be now - there seems to be a diffusion of the term, diffusion not in the meaning of liquidation, but in the meaning of differentiation, like a microscope resolves. So from the field of illnesses caused by the soul in more exact meaning of the words there will disqualify those cases that are actually the mental struggles or the existential crisis of a human being, therefore being nothing sick at all (even if these struggles or this crisis look like the clinical picture of a neurosis). On the other hand those cases will disqualify that are not caused by the soul or mentally, but physically, because they're caused by (functional, but not necessarily coming from the psyche) disorders of the vegetative nervous system or the endocrine system. This would be the place to think of one of the achievements of Kauder (15); besause it was him who, thinking of the typical morbidity of post-war times, pointed our view to the vegetative nervous system. Furthermore Karl Nowotny (16) and Paul Polak (17) need to be mentioned here - both of them certainly not notorious for neglecting the psychogenic thought - who could show how often behind the facade of seemingly neurotic sicknesses in reality there are latent tetanias [cramps] (Loeb, Kylin, Jesserer). Regarding hyperthyreosis [overfunctioning of the thyroid gland] similar things are known (Stransky, and from his school, lately Waldschuetz (1). Furthermore we've noted ourselves often that especially agoraphobia is not rarely the sole subjective manifestation of a hyperthyreosis - so to speak, its own specific psycho-correlative. Finally thanks to Polzer and Schober (19) we know about those sympathic and vagovasal attacks that the mentioned have dedicated a monography in which they didn't miss to warn strongly against a contamination of these symptoms with the actual (heart) neurosis. In fact all these types of functional, but not psychogene, but more vegetative ore endocrine disorders are merely a pseudo-neurosis. From them we think that we can point out three well characterized undergroups: 1. the tetanoid, 2. the basedowoid, hyperthyroid [related to overfunction of the thyroid gland] and 3. the addisonoid, hypocorticoid [related to underfunction of the cortex of those glands (?)] With all that it might be good to realize that especially the secong group could manifest itself in mere agoraphobia, same as the third group in DP or psychadynamia. Knowledge of this nosologic [systematic descripition of an illness] relations as well as the implied aetiologic [cause of an illness] relations seems to be of practical importance to us, because only a right differentiated diagnosis based on this can keep us from therapy mistakes. Facing the widespread therapy of neurotic symptoms - real ones as well as pseudo ones- with barbiturate derivates in small dosis we have to ask ourselves which effect we can expect from these sedative measures where we deal with the three types of pseudoneurosis as described above. Well, while barbiture acid might have success in cases of hypertyreosis, it stays without effect in these cases where behind a neurotic facade there's a latent tetania: these cases need in fact calcium medication, or better AT10. While barbiturates are no more indicated in these cases, they are in fact in the cases of disguised hypocorticosis contra-indicated, because how else should they be effective than to lower blood pressure even more, and by doing so increase psychadynamia and especially DP: symptoms that -if seen as what they really are, psychical correlative of a hypocorticosis - would have promptly reacted to medication for the suprarenal glands.


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## Guest (Dec 27, 2006)

lol, I'm not reading all of that... could you get to the point? =P *head spins*


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## ludwig80 (Nov 14, 2006)

just read some of the case files.


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## Catharsis (Jul 2, 2006)

Looks promising? What's happening with this treatment now?


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## ludwig80 (Nov 14, 2006)

Well aparently it was taken off the market for humans in the US. I dont know much about this at all, i just copied and pasted this from another forum hoping someone had heard something about it. It seems like fairly descend results but I dont know any first hand accounts. Plus you would probably have to go to get it from a veterenarian because apparently they have uses for it in animals and its considered safe in them. From the case study it seems promising but beyond that im at a loss.


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## ludwig80 (Nov 14, 2006)

up


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## Mareegirl (May 2, 2006)

I want this med immediately. Hahaha. :!:


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## lostsoul (Aug 25, 2006)

I would like to give this a try. But I don't really like taking medicines that are meant for animals... Also the price is quite high, about $199. Now if i would know quite sure it would work I would give $10000 for it, but since I have know idea its quite a risk..


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## lostsoul (Aug 25, 2006)

I found a cheaper one at $139,95 here http://www.discountpetdrugs.com/percortenv.html

But i still don't really trust it since it is meant for animals...


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

That reads like an incredibly old medical abstract. "Suprarenal" glands? You mean the adrenal glands? Cortical hypotonia? What? I dont even have to look that medicine up. If they are linking DP with Addison's disease (which most of the time I dont think is anywhere near true - if they were going to choose a glandular dysfunction, hypo and hyperthyroidism would have been a better hypothesis, although that really wouldnt be true either), then this medicine is an artifical cortisone. Basically, its prednisone for animals. This article MUST be ancient. I mean, I guess you could go out and buy cortisone, or see a wholistic doctor who beleives in adrenal fatigue, but it will only make your DP worse. Its the stress hormone, one of the fight or flight hormones. If anything, you'll feel worse, put on water weight, eat a whole heck of a lot, and lose some brain cells (cortisone and stress is linked to thinning of the cortex). My personal hypothesis on the origins of DP? Number one: Genetic abnormality of heme synthesis, ie, Porphyria. More than likely a genetic disease common in most Caucasians linked to fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue, anxiety, and depression. The proteins in this disease cross the blood brain barrier, causing a host of nervous system symptoms. I have the clinical form, but I expect most modern Americans have a sub-clinical version. You see, the disease manifests itself when the liver comes into contact with any chemicals/pollution it needs to break down. This starts the heme synthesis cycle between the liver and the bone marrow, and the offending protien, a "porphyrin" is produced in the bone marrow. Number two : The proteins cross the blood brain barrier, then show up in some of the population as the nervous system disorder "DP". These people have a predisposition to temporal and parietal lobe dysfunction. In other parts of the population, who are predisposed to having their Cingulate 25 area of the cortex malfunction, depression will be the overriding nervous system manifestation. Number 3, and one of the most important of the three: Spiritual/psychological afflictions, most of all, abuse. _These_ things, _in my personal opinion_ are at the heart of most DP cases. I'm fascinated that someone found this very weird article, though.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## ludwig80 (Nov 14, 2006)

I dont know much about medicine any thoughts of why it worked for hese people? There was a lady on the board where i got this article from who tried this. She went to her dads vet in 2003 or something and bought a couple viles of this stuff for i think 150. She mentioned she used 4 cc's of it and it worked against her dp for about two years i believe. So apparently it worked for her too..... Now i have no idea and i have no way of telling if this is true but i doubt someone would lie. However, i might also assume that her dp was treatable with this method because of certain personal aspects that may different from most of us. Maybe not, who knows. Anyways Homeskooled my guess is you are probably right about the age of this article I believe its fairly old. You obviously know quite abit our condition, any chance that you know if they working to prove any of your theories or better yet, come up with a solution?


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2006)

Placebo.


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## ludwig80 (Nov 14, 2006)

damn i get to many side effects from placebos. maybe its worth it? anyways i think im gonna go tell my vet that my dog is feeling dissociated lately and he needs some percorten a sap.


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Dear Ludwig, 
Read my posts in the Tomboys/Tomgirls thread for a listing of the diet that I use to treat subclinical and clinical porphyria. No, unfortunately, NOONE is currently doing research on subclinical porphyrias, except myself, in very non-clinical studies. I mean, I'm good with facts and medicine, but I dont have the time, money, or credentials to get a study of mine published in a peer reviewed journal. Just not going to happen unless I'm famous or an MD. Second of all, there are some people working on DP who have also found temporal/parietal links to DP, such as Dr. Simeon, but they have largely ignored these findings and instead gone the route of examining individual neurotransmitter defects. Missing the forest for the the trees, in my opinion. For really good neurobiological treatment of DP, the Amen Clinics in the US are excellent, as is the diet I follow. Beyond that, prayer, surrounding yourself with excellent people at University, church, work, and family are excellent ways to spiritually heal.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## flat (Jun 18, 2006)

This porphyrin idea sounds like it may take time to develop before the sensation of dp is felt. How about sudden onset dp from extreme anxiety? My dp didn't come gradually. It hit me like a ton of bricks when I was under extreme stress.


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## ludwig80 (Nov 14, 2006)

Im not sure what you mean by tomgirls/tomboys site but ill check up later. Anyways thats too bad they're not studying this because it seems as if you have idea of what is going. Espically since you, unfortunately are suffering from it like the rest of us, and can help in the studies. I wish i had an idea about the brain and its workings but before this i have had no reasons to reason with the brain. Someone in college should major in psychology and get an M.D. and figure out the in and outs of DP/DR and come back with the answer. Tha'd be grand haha. Until then though i figure we'll have to make our own for ourselves.

Flat. I have no idea, my onset also came on like a freight train. However, I have a feeling though that we are all in on the same boat though, no matter what. Some of us just dont have an answer like anxiety, we have something else like trauma but in the ends its the same to get better. Just dealing with the situation at hand.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2007)

*Eats dog food*... *licks fingers*


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2007)

uh? sorry i couldn't hear you... ? =P


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2007)

I AM GLAD TO FIND SOMEONE ELSE ON THIS SITE THAT LIKES SHOUTING!!!

G.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2007)

I'M NOT GOING TO TRY "DOGGY" TREATMENT TO END MY DR/DP, I'M ALREADY A BITCH AS IT IS... *BITES amlangela & Im still the same person* GRRR


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## Jackson18 (Nov 20, 2006)

If i had some right now, i would take it. I dont care if its for a dog, my guess is ive probably taken worse things for myself. (Ending me up here probably) Dp/dr is fucking annoying and i would love to see it go and never come back.


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## j glaze11 (Sep 16, 2006)

if its prednisone for dogs fuck it then.... prednisone gave me bad anxiety and dp and dr it was only temperary but it gave me phobias about dp and dr


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## oiledleather (Feb 7, 2005)

I'm going to ask my family physician and/or my psychiatrist for a referal to an endocrinologist.

This sounds like a really good idea about DP.

According to Wikipedia, Addison's disease is "(also known as chronic adrenal insufficiency, or hypocortisolism)". People with DP are known to have low, and sometimes almost non-existant cortisol levels. It makes me wonder why no one ever thought about this before.

Because of the relationship between depersonalization disorder and stress, it makes sense that the disorder might have an endocrinological origin. Same for Chronic fatigue syndrome, FIbromyalgia, etc. I'm now starting to think that there's a good chance that other mental ilnesses, like Schizophrenia, probably have an endocrinological component.

Michael


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## goo goo (Aug 31, 2006)

Well if it did cure dp/dr for me, then i would have no problem taking it for the rest of my life. Even if it cuts down my life expectancy, then i would have a guarenteed exsistance without dp/dr and would probally enjoy it much more than a longer life with dp/dr.


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## oiledleather (Feb 7, 2005)

Hey Ludwig,

What other board did you find the original text (first message of this thread)?

Michael


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## ludwig80 (Nov 14, 2006)

I agree with you totallly goo goo. I would gladly take anything even if it cut my life shorter. Im about to go sky diving in a little while, and honeslty had I never had dp/dr i probably wouldnt have ever gone. Oiledleather, im not sure the site at this moment but ill try and find it and pm you the link. Let me know what this new doctor thinks.


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