# identitiy crisis... borderline personality disorder.. u all



## klt123 (Jun 15, 2005)

a lot o fu speak of "identity crisis" you may want to ask ur shrink if you have borderline personality disorder..... dp and dr are symptoms of it... also you can google it onlilne.. there is specific treatment for this so u may want to make sure u dont have this!


----------



## Scattered (Mar 8, 2005)

Whats the difference between calling this dissociation or calling it BPD? I'm looking at the symptoms for BPD and am having a hard time understanding why this is considered its own disorder. It seems like a bunch of symptoms have been grouped together and given a name for the sake of convienience. But I assume anyone with anxiety and depression is going to have problems with anger, relationship issues, and loneliness. Thats common sense. Changing from calling yourself a dissociative to calling yourself borderline seems about as significant as changing your name. Your still the same person but people refer to you by a different signifier.


----------



## IvyGray (Feb 22, 2006)

Depersonalization and Derealization can be *symptoms* of a Borderline Personality Disorder. I often find myself thinking that many people on this site (maybe myself included :wink: ) actually suffer from a borderline disorder and the DP isn't their primary problem. It's one thing to "simply" (i know this is an understatement) suffer from DP or DR and quite another to have a completely unstable sense of self.. unable to make decisions or even decide what your likes and dislikes or goals in life are. Of course to be diagnosed as borderline the issues surrounding sense of self would have to be quite severe. But from what I can tell, many of us here do in fact have severe identity issues. So, I do think you can differentiate between DP and borderline. Someone can suffer from DR where the world looks like your head is stuck in a fishbowl, yet still have a completely concrete sense of self. Just because every day feels like a dream doesn't necessarily mean you have an identity crisis. Food for thought.


----------



## Luka (Aug 30, 2005)

DP/DR can stand on its own or be symptoms of alot of things, not only Borderline Personality Disorder. DP/DR can be caused by drugs, trauma or stress. It can also be a part of dissociative disorder like PTSD, DDNOS and DID. It can also be a part of several other disorders/illnesses like (manic) depression, BPD and schizofrenia.


----------



## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

I knew someone with BPD. Before he told me he had it, I noticed a number of nuances about the way he behaved. Once he had told me about the diagnosis and I read about it a bit, it all fit perfectly. If you know someone with BPD you don't just think of it as a bunch of random symtoms - it is a definite personality type.

Some people people are pushing for BPD to be renamed Emotional Dysregulation Disorder.


----------



## Scattered (Mar 8, 2005)

Really? And what would would you say if I advanced a purely speculative statistic that probably 80% of people on this board suffer from the same exact symptoms listed under BPD. Maybe it is diagnosed according to severity and if someone exhibits all those symptoms but not to a severe extent they aren't considered borderline. That would make a bit more sense to me. However, this whole idea of identity disturbance as a deciding factor seems arbitrary. I don't know who am I, and neither does a great majority of people here. If they did they wouldn't be here. If you're trying to talk about people who can't remember who they are then I would assume that would be considered a type of amnesia. Otherwise, they know who they are, and yet have "identity disturbances" because they cannot relate to who they know they are.

The only reason I replied to the post is because I find the fetish of labeling for the sake of labeling to be disturbing. For a supposedly objective science you would think methods of diagnosis would be slightly more refined. Otherwise you can take any individual with a great deal of emotional baggage and diagnose him or her in any one of a thousand ways. I find it funny when the same person goes to different doctors and gets different diagnoses, or when a diagnosis changes multiple times. It makes you wonder how much we really know about the workings of the mind and how supposedly concrete constellations of symptoms come together to form a specific illness.


----------



## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Personally I find it very useful that things are labelled and described. It doesn't help one to understand the cause of the collection of the symptoms, but it is useful when it comes to trying to understand a person's behaviour.

My experience of the man with BPD was negative. I felt unable to deal with his demands and unpredictable reaction to me (either intensely interested or completely off-hand).

I have also found it extremely useful to know that my mum is "schizophrenic". It has given me the chance to read a little about her condition and become much clearer in my mind exactly what it was about her child-rearing that I objected to. If there wasn't a label I wouldn't have ever known that she was ill. I would have continued to deny it, as I was taught by her!

I suppose then that I use labels in order to try and be a bit more objective about people and what is normal. It is not that I am normal myself - I am not!!! In fact, it pleases me a lot to be labelled as having primary derealisation/depersonalisation syndrome.

In short, I believe that a label can be very useful, so long as it is accurate.

Recently, I was hurt that a psychiatrist expressed concerns that I may be suffering from "insidious psychosis". It hurt because it is not true. But if it _were_ true, there is a chance that I would be grateful to him for identifying my disease.

The problem is not in the diagnosis, it is in prejudice and discrimination that frequently comes as a result. The labelling of the person. The failure to recognise that it is the illness that has warrented the label, and that the person didn't ask to be ill.

I see a label as an opportunity to identify what it is about a person which is not quite right, so that measures can be taken for the person to live with those problems more succesfully.

Yet again this has turned into a kind of a rant. I'm beginning to bore myself actually.


----------



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

I'm with Miss Starling on all of what she has to say. It is easy for a layperson to misinterpret things like the DSM-IV, which mind you is from 1994 (over 10 years old) and the next one will be coming out in 2012 if I'm not mistaken.

The DSM, The Merck Manual (see Link in Links section), and the ICD (International Classification of Disorders which includes physical ailments) are ever evolving as we gain new knowledge.

BPD is a very specific diagnosis. I have some qualities myself, but not all. No one can necessarily be pegged into one hole, I have other qualities.

My mother may have been a high functioning Borderline. She was a psychiatrist who was stalked by a serious BPD patient for 20 years. Believe me, it is a very clear diagnosis.

Lamictal a mood stabilizer has helped a good number of symptoms, and I like the term "mood dysregulation" as it could be in part on the bipolar spectrum.

If you haven't known a mentally ill person, worked with one directly, or read extensively on the topic, you really can't dismiss diagnoses out of hand.

The difficulty with all of these illnesses is they are neurological and psychological, IMHO. You can't separate the two. They interfere with cognition, with social interaction, etc.

Someone with full blown BPD, cuts themselves among other things. I don't, but cutting can also be associated with other disorders. BPD is for some reason more prevalent in women. It is also known that individals with BPD can have serious episodes of DP.

DP can come with most if not all mental illness. Whether it is an illness in its own right, that comes with other mental illness or whether (and I believe this to be so) it is secondary to other problems such as anxiety, still has to be sorted out.

Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Diagnosis, CORRECT diagnosis is important for proper treatment. It is unfortunate that so many doctors are still unaware of what to do with DP.

The work coming out from various sources, the increased media attention, etc. is changing this. Also, research into ALL mental illness, and into neurological disorders with DP yields information that is useful to all of us.

80% of us are NOT Borderline here. Not possible by a long shot. Go to a BPD support board.

Here we seem to have a common experience of anxiety related disorders.

Look at the LINKS section, look at the research section.

I come on here every so often to remind people that things are happening. READ, READ, READ. Inform yourself, look at the other sections here.

Go to the site for The National Alliance on Mental Illness. See what strides are being done in all areas of mental health advocacy and research. I am a member, and hope to have Dr. Simeon speak at the 2007 NAMI convention which will reach out to psychiatrists, researchers and consumers. Upwards of 2,000 people attend these conventions.

Armed with her book, current speaking engagements, etc. more of the word will get out.

As I always say, there is no cure for AIDS, and research has been going on since the 1980s. One virus. And it is killing millions of people. 20+ years of research. And the brain is far more complex than the AIDS virus by lightyears.

End of my rant.
Dreamer

NAMI -- have a look http://www.nami.org


----------



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Ah, and my personal experience w/DP.... most of my life and I am 47. I have severe anxiety, and some sort of mood disorder. I also have chronic DP/DR. No drug onset. I came from a very abusive home which may or may not have been a contributor.

WE ARE ALL UNIQUE.

Check out my site, which is also a contribution to educating people.

http://www.dreamchild.net

created to help others feel less alone, to illustrate research that is going on, coping skills, my story, my meds, my experience with psychiatry since 1975 etc., etc., etc.


----------



## Scattered (Mar 8, 2005)

I didn't mean to say that diagnosis of any kind is useless. I think label's, when applied correctly, can be a good way of determining the problems that people face. I just think that the need to label, outright and sometimes irresponsibly, symptoms that may have little to do with an identified illness can sometimes be harmful. I'm not saying that 80% of people here have BPD. I'm simply saying that I believe that vast majority of people here fall within the spectrum of those symptoms. Some of us are so close that we may be able to have a diagnosis of BPD. How severe does one's illness have to be before he or she is considered BPD? If I have all of those symptoms but don't cut myself, does that mean that I'm not BPD? I would caution people, and ask them to think about these issues of boundaries and threshholds before they automatically accept a diagnosis like this. Of course, when I talk about this I'm talking more about the people at the less serious end. This is where the confusion exists in my mind. Not among those who are obvious threats to themselves or others, who need immediate attention for apparent reasons.


----------



## peacedove (Aug 15, 2004)

Well... I've been diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder, Depression, Panic Disorder, Generalized Anxiety Disorder, and I've diagnosed myself with Depersonalization Disorder which I think caused all the prior disorders.

I also have OCD tendencies. I'm just a wreck. I can't remember what I was getting at. I guess I'm just sharing my life... I cut myself... haven't in about 3 or 4 years but I've wanted to. I think I'm sick of all the scars.

Lamictal hasn't been helping me unfortunately. I'm thinking of tapering off. It's supposed to stabilize moods and my moods are worse than before. I know it's helped some people though. I know Tom Servo was on it and I haven't seen him in ages. He's probably cured.


----------



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Scattered said:


> I didn't mean to say that diagnosis of any kind is useless. I think label's, when applied correctly, can be a good way of determining the problems that people face. I just think that the need to label, outright and sometimes irresponsibly, symptoms that may have little to do with an identified illness can sometimes be harmful. I'm not saying that 80% of people here have BPD. *I'm simply saying that I believe that vast majority of people here fall within the spectrum of those symptoms. Some of us are so close that we may be able to have a diagnosis of BPD. How severe does one's illness have to be before he or she is considered BPD?* If I have all of those symptoms but don't cut myself, does that mean that I'm not BPD? I would caution people, and ask them to think about these issues of boundaries and threshholds before they automatically accept a diagnosis like this. Of course, when I talk about this I'm talking more about the people at the less serious end. This is where the confusion exists in my mind. Not among those who are obvious threats to themselves or others, who need immediate attention for apparent reasons.


In diagnosing, a VERY GOOD responsible M.D. psychitrist knows how to diagnose most common illnesses. Not MSWs, not even Ph.D.s necessarily.

*Each diagnosis has to have a MINIMUM criteria, to even be considered as a diagnosis. I don't know how in the world you could think that we are all on a Borderline Spectrum here!*

There are people here with OCD, Social Anxiety, Bipolar, etc., etc., etc. There are differences. I have worked in Day Care situations where these differences are mighty clear. And I know myself. My Borderline characteristics weren't clear until I was in my 40s. I see them now.

My diagnosis since 1975, when I was 15, has been Depersonalization Disorder. No M.D. missed it in all those years.

Let me compare for you the two diagnoses ... if I can find the damned things. Laypersons quickly place these diagnoses into a simple framework. You need to see the symptoms in action.

For instance, the words "identity crisis" and "nervous breakdown" are not medical/psychiatric terms. They are lay terms. They are more amorphous.

Let me get the two Dxs. You would have to know my mother's patient who as I mentioned STALKED my mother for 20+ years, even when my mother was in her nursing home with Alzheimer's. My mother had to get a restraining order against her. She sent love notes to my mother, naked pictures, was "in love" with my mother. Then when my mother discontinued the relationship (she found this individual was seeing a number of shrinks at once and getting meds from all) the woman flew into a rage, stalked ME, sat outside the house in her car, tried to slander and libel my mother at her hospitals. This is not small potatoes.

My mother had at one time, an entire canvas mailbag full of love letters from this woman. It was used as police evidence. OK... let me find a bad example (not the DSM which shows minimum criteria of Borderline vs. DP) then I'm done.

Your comments are not based on knowledge. I'm sorry I get crabby about that, but it is destructive.

D


----------



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

*Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) is characterized by 
impulsivity and instability in mood, self-image, and personal 
relationships. It is fairly common and is diagnosed more often in 
females than males.*

Individuals with BPD have several of the following symptoms:

-marked mood swings with periods of intense depression,

-irritability, and/or anxiety lasting a few hours to a few days;

-inappropriate, intense, or uncontrolled anger; 
impulsiveness in spending, sex, substance use, shoplifting, 
reckless driving, or binge eating;

-recurring suicidal threats or self-injurious behavior;
unstable, intense personal relationships with extreme, black and 
white views of people and experiences, sometimes alternating 
between "all good" idealization and "all bad" devaluation;

-marked, persistent uncertainty about self-image, long term goals, 
friendships, and values;

-chronic boredom or feelings of emptiness; and
frantic efforts to avoid abandonment, either real or imagined.

Not mentioned here is the prevalence of severe episodes of DP.
My mother's patient is an excellent example of all of these qualities.
Scattered, would you REALLY say that this describes most of us on the board. This was from the NAMI site. Find a DSM-IV and be prepared to read pages on the subject. This is very simplistic as is the definition of DP. However, you will see MORE of us in the DP diagnosis:

Again, go to a BPD site and compare what folks there are talking about. You won't fit in, I guaranteed it.

Do you honestly think this describes most of us here? Not me, not most of the rather highly functioning individuals here. BPD is severely incapacitating. It involves self-destructive tendencies on all levels. I know several individuals w/BPD personally. They don't know what the hell is wrong with ME! 8)

*VS. DEPERSONALIZATION DISORDER WHICH IS RATHER CUT AND DRIED AND AT PRESENT FALLS INTO THE CATEGORY OF DISSOCIATIVE DISORDERS, NOT PERSONALITY DISORDERS.*

http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/mmanual/section15/chapter188/18
8e.jsp

The Merck Manual of Diagnosis and Therapy 
Section 15. Psychiatric Disorders 
Chapter 188. Dissociative Disorders 
Topics 
[General] 
-Dissociative Amnesia 
-Dissociative Fugue 
-Dissociative Identity Disorder 
-*Depersonalization Disorder*

(this latter part is again from NAMI -- too simplistic -- a lay summary)

*Depersonalization disorder is marked by a feeling of detachment or 
distance from one's own experience, body, or self. These feelings 
of depersonalization are recurrent. Of the dissociative disorders, 
depersonalization is the one most easily identified with by the 
general public; one can easily relate to feeling as they in a 
dream, or being "spaced out." Feeling out of control of one's 
actions and movements is something that people describe when 
intoxicated. An individual with depersonalization disorder has this 
experience so frequently and so severely that it interrupts his or 
her functioning and experience. A person's experience with 
depersonalization can be so severe that he or she believes the 
external world is unreal or distorted.

PERIOD.*


----------



## Scattered (Mar 8, 2005)

I have the vague feeling that if I try to come up with a reply this is going to devolve into a verbal fist fight. So I'll explain my position without recourse to controversial opinions that might strike a nerve and earn the collective wrath of members of this board .

All I meant to say was that some of these descriptions, on first viewing of symptoms and constellation of symptoms, bear a resemblance to my experience and some of the experience of the people on this board. Even though they may correspond to us, I don't believe that a corrrespondence of some of these symptoms necessarily has to imply that we are BPD. I also wanted to say that I personally do not understand how concrete this diagnosis can be when we are talking about relatively highly functional individuals. I believe it is possible to have, to some degree, an experience of most of these symptoms while still being a highly functional individual. The symptom list itself does not say how severe the experience of these symptoms must be, but perhaps thats the problem. Maybe there is some scale written somewhere else that I'm not aware of, that attempts an objective level of analysis of how intense these symptoms must be before a diagnosis is made. The only reason I'm speaking of this is because I feel like I can relate to all of the symptoms with an *exception* of self-harm or suicidal gestures. And yet I don't have the sudden urge to stalk anyone.

I don't know how an expression of my opinion is destructive. It can only be destructive if regular individuals read my posts as if I'm a medical expert, which I'm not. If you need me to put a disclaimer in my signature stating that I'm just an idiotic college student and don't take me seriously, I'll happily do so


----------



## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

The psychiatric illness titles that we have today were not give to us from God in the beginning of time. They are diseases of the "mind" and have evolved over time based on peoples OPINIONS. The diseases in the dsm were literally voted into existance. Psychiatry as a whole is very un-scientific. Its based on extremely weak theories. Its scary to me because these lunatics freely dispense drugs that have no known method of action. You can go to 10 different shrinks and get 10 different diagnosis'. As far as Im concerned you can wipe your ass with a psychiatric diagnosis.

Joe


----------



## walkingdead (Jan 28, 2006)

Even though some class borderline personality disorder as a dissociative disorder, I do not think it relates that much to posters here. Before this DP like disorder came on me I was a flaming manic-depressive and I sometimes wonder if I was BPD. But when this hit me those extreme highs and lows evaporated into this level nothingness. I had a short relationship with a BPD and she was extremely jealous and violent, very much like that character in Fatal Attraction. I feel lucky to have escaped with only a broken pinky finger.
Some have said that BPD is the worst and hardest to treat of all mental diseases including schizophrenia. But I do not think whomever said that knew about DP. I would gladly exchange this mundane hell to be BPD. At least they can have some fun.


----------



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Scattered said:


> I have the vague feeling that if I try to come up with a reply this is going to devolve into a verbal fist fight. So I'll explain my position without recourse to controversial opinions that might strike a nerve and earn the collective wrath of members of this board .
> 
> All I meant to say was that some of these descriptions, on first viewing of symptoms and constellation of symptoms, bear a resemblance to my experience and some of the experience of the people on this board. *Even though they may correspond to us, I don't believe that a corrrespondence of some of these symptoms necessarily has to imply that we are BPD. I also wanted to say that I personally do not understand how concrete this diagnosis can be when we are talking about relatively highly functional individuals. I believe it is possible to have, to some degree, an experience of most of these symptoms while still being a highly functional individual.* The symptom list itself does not say how severe the experience of these symptoms must be, but perhaps thats the problem. Maybe there is some scale written somewhere else that I'm not aware of, that attempts an objective level of analysis of how intense these symptoms must be before a diagnosis is made. The only reason I'm speaking of this is because I feel like I can relate to all of the symptoms with an *exception* of self-harm or suicidal gestures. And yet I don't have the sudden urge to stalk anyone.
> 
> I don't know how an expression of my opinion is destructive. It can only be destructive if regular individuals read my posts as if I'm a medical expert, which I'm not. If you need me to put a disclaimer in my signature stating that I'm just an idiotic college student and don't take me seriously, I'll happily do so


Sigh, Scattered,
I don't want to get in a fighting match either. But you have changed your POV here. You said earlier that you felt up to 80% of the people here were BPD. Then you have changed your argument.

What is important is

1. Yes, the number of symptoms within the diagnostic criteria

2. The severity of the symptoms

3. There is a spectrum where someone (such as myself can have some borderline tendencies) but that is NOT true of everyone here. I spent my teens fighting viciously with my mother. We fought with each other in a borderline manner. Inappropriate rage, extreme rage. I also exhibited this behavior with some therapists, calling them repeatedly in a rage when they didn't return my call immediately. Screamed at them, etc. Totally inappropriate.

I did this with no one other than my mother and my therapists. This would happen with boyfriends. I would blow up with some women. I don't do this anymore. I have been in DBT which is very effective in dealing with BPD. I'd have to find yet another link to that which is somewhere on this board.

I also have extremes of black and white thinking, and a terrible fear of abandonment.

I also come from neglect and abuse which can contribute to these traits.

*But I am not Borderline. I have those tendencies. My most disabling symptom is chronic 24/7 DP/DR, and currently a huge loss of motivation and hopelessness. I also have some extremes of emotion. Right now the best way to describe me is DP/DR, anxious, with a mood disorder.*

It is one thing to have "tendencies" reminiscent of a disorder vs. having the DISORDER ITSELF.

If you have a headache, sneezing and a fever you may have the flu, or you may merely have a cold. That is very simplistic, but many physical ailments that are specific to themselves share things in common with OTHER physical illnesses and sometimes doctors need to decide, "Does this patient need an antibiotic, or is this a viral infection?" Treating with an antibiotic will do nothing if it is viral and could be detrimental to the patients healing.

NOTHING IS SIMPLE IN MEDICINE.

Also,

OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) is NOT obsessing over things.

DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder) is no longer "Multiple Personality Disorder" which the media confuses endlessly with Schizophrenia which is NOT schizoaffective disorder.

I am not a doctor, but I have been fascinated by medicine, neurology and psychiatry by dint of the fact that I have DP/DR, anxiety, and a mood disorder.

I am doing the best I can to educate myself and others. Making blanket statements that have no basis even in a link to a source doesn't cut it with me anymore. I guess I'm too old.

I'm also the daughter of a surgeon and a psychiatrist. And was raised with the "scientific method" and too much medical information lying around the house. And my mother abused and attacked me with her psychiatric analysis of me. Her rage was unbelieveable. She was very ill, no friends per se, and yet was an M.D. Successful. My father had OCD, also a doctor. Didn't mean either of them were happy, didn't mean they made good parents and neither died happy. Oh, and they were separated when I was very small.

*As I've said, read my site. You will see I have done a lot of research, and I would never presume to diagnose anyone on this site. You cannot diagnose someone w/out seeing them IN PERSON, and for at least a series of sessions.

In my diagnosis over the years I've had cognitive tests, personality testing, CAT Scan, EEG, extensive interviews with my psychiatrists before being diagnosed.

Psychiatry has changed over the years. A lot. For better and worse. I used to get a weekly 50 minute session with a psychiatrist for a reasonable price. Therapy and meds monitoring. That was in the 1970s and 1980s. Insurance parity has changed. The business of psychiatry has changed and it is horrible. That is why I am involved with NAMI.*

I'm sorry I get bitchy. I know the little I know. It irritates me when there is misinformation or gross generalizations or assumptions, especially on the internet. Another thing that didn't exist when I was young. It is a great thing, full of a wealth of great information, and full of a lot of bunk.

I hope this can end in a truce. I get on my crusades every now and again.

If you don't understand my POV now, you never will. The internet is not a perfect place to exhange information such as this.

Truce,
D


----------



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Final comment on DP/DR here on the Board.

It seems most of us can "connect" "understand" each other when others can't. We seem to be speaking a language of symptoms that no one else seems to understand. We must have something in common.

HOWEVER:

1. Some here have chronic 24/7 DP/DR
2. Some here have episodic DP/DR
3. Some have only DP
4. Some have only DR
5. Some cases here are severe and terribly disabling
6. Others here are able to work and have families/children, and some even say it doesn't bother them as much as say anxiety symptoms.
7. Some had an Rx, or rec drug onset
8. Some had no Rx or rec drug onset

And, there are certainly a certain percentage of people here who have DP DISORDER alone.

There are others who have comorbid disorders.

Here we have ONE DISORDER, one particular symptom -- a perceptual shift, a neurological glitch -- and yet I can name at least 8 variations within that diagnosis alone.

Diagnoses/labels whatever you want to call them are used to help doctors narrow down a problem and figure out how to treat it. There are many mysteries in physical medicine, and many many many many mysteries in psychiatry and neurology.

And as my father used to say ... he performed thoracic surgery, years ago, in the very primitive 1930s, 1940s, 1950s and 1960s. He used to say, "You crack someone open and you never see the same arrangement of organs twice. EVERYONE IS UNIQUE." More people died on the operating table during heart/lung surgery when my father practiced than they do now.

Why? Knowledge. It takes time to gather, to learn, to disseminate.

I wish both of my parents were alive to see the changes in medicine over the years.

And as per my DP/DR. It gets better over time. Or it has for me. But I have had it for most of my life. Yet I still remember every single moment of reality and joy I had in my life.

We can't give up hope.
D


----------



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

walkingdead said:


> *Even though some class borderline personality disorder as a dissociative disorder, I do not think it relates that much to posters here.* Before this DP like disorder came on me I was a flaming manic-depressive and I sometimes wonder if I was BPD. But when this hit me those extreme highs and lows evaporated into this level nothingness. *I had a short relationship with a BPD and she was extremely jealous and violent, very much like that character in Fatal Attraction. I feel lucky to have escaped with only a broken pinky finger.*
> Some have said that BPD is the worst and hardest to treat of all mental diseases including schizophrenia. But I do not think whomever said that knew about DP. I would gladly exchange this mundane hell to be BPD. At least they can have some fun.


Dear walking,

One clarification, *BPD is NOT classified as a Dissociative Disorder.* It is a Personality Disorder which ultimately will probably move in to the realm of mood disorder.

BUT
*Someone with BPD however can have severe episodes of DP which is one of the 4 major dissociative disorders. Episodes of DP in BPD then could mean, and one could assume, that the DP is PART of that overall illness.*

Also, the character of Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction is a horrifying example of someone with BPD, given the liberties of Hollywood. That woman was extreme, but her actions could probably be characterized as Borderline. She was very similar to my mother's borderline patient, who was probably my mother's most extreme case of borderline in her career. As I said, my mother had a life long restraining order against her.

D

Scattered you will agree that probably a good number of us here do not boil rabbits in pots when we don't get what we want. :shock: 8)


----------



## Scattered (Mar 8, 2005)

Truce indeed. I'll qualify any further statements by saying that my ignorance knows no bounds. But even though I'm certainly no doctor, or a qualified professional, I'm still an individual who is (or will be soon after I try to get some tests done) enmeshed within the healthcare system. I'm a person who suffers from a variety of psychological problems and as such I feel like my opinion has a place. I think this all comes down, for me personally, to a matter of control. I don't like the idea of doctors having unlimited control over our perceptions. We should be openminded, willing to accept other ideas, yet at the same time we should be skeptical. I think we should be skeptical of psychiatry, neurology, psychology and any other specialized area of medicine that seeks to explain to us who we are. If we don't exercise our abilities to use our own minds, opinions, and resources, then we risk allowing our future to be dictated by the those who we relegate authority to. This may sound extreme or ridiculous but when it comes to who controls my mind, via theories, drugs, or treatments, I think its very important that we try to educate ourselves and even sometimes butt heads with those who claim to know more than we do.


----------



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Scattered said:


> Truce indeed. I'll qualify any further statements by saying that my ignorance knows no bounds. But even though I'm certainly no doctor, or a qualified professional, I'm still an individual who is (or will be soon after I try to get some tests done) enmeshed within the healthcare system. I'm a person who suffers from a variety of psychological problems and as such I feel like my opinion has a place. I think this all comes down, for me personally, to a matter of control. I don't like the idea of doctors having unlimited control over our perceptions. We should be openminded, willing to accept other ideas, yet at the same time we should be skeptical. I think we should be skeptical of psychiatry, neurology, psychology and any other specialized area of medicine that seeks to explain to us who we are. If we don't exercise our abilities to use our own minds, opinions, and resources, then we risk allowing our future to be dictated by the those who we relegate authority to. This may sound extreme or ridiculous but when it comes to who controls my mind, via theories, drugs, or treatments, I think its very important that we try to educate ourselves and even sometimes butt heads with those who claim to know more than we do.


Scattered,
I am not saying "your ignorance knows no bounds", but I am saying that I have spent my life trying to fight my way through the mental health system.

I have fired numerous health care professionals, refused certain ideas about me, and refused many medications.

I can only say that, I have sought experience and education through a variety of routes. One very important one has been working directly with mentally ill patients in a number of situations. Years back at uni I was allowed to participate in a program which took us on a regular basis to one the of the last State hospitals.

I say over and over again, we must educate ourselves, that's what I'm doing! And it is frustrating to see that individuals here frequently don't read the links section to see there is research going on, that people here diagnose each other when that is impossible over the internet, etc.

I have a stand, and it may be ass backwards, but it is based on educating myself, just as you say. And over the years I have taken greater and greater control of my care. In years past I would never have considered group therapy, CBT, DBT (which wasn't available) ... I have learned the power of those situations -- interacting with people with various illnesses.

I have also of all things found a lot of sane approaches to improving myself through Buddhist concepts, meditation, yoga etc.

Yes, we have to look out for ourselves, armed with information.

I was just struck by your saying that 80% of this board could be characterized as having BPD. I will stake my life on it that that is not the case.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I to mine.

And I find it disturbing that people don't see the DSM for instance as an historical document and a means of diagnosis for insurance purposes. And it is attacked repeatedly though many people have never read it.

My POV has been echoed here by Miss Starling and walkingdead so I am not alone.

*My most important point here is we cannot diagnose each other over the internet. But we have the power to educate ourselves. We need to do this when seeing our regular phsyicians as well.

If I see what is blatant misinformation, IMHO, I have to speak up.*

And no I'm not a professional, just an old hand at this. 30+ years in the mental health system is worth something.

And of course diagnostic labels change constantly, again in all areas of medicine.

What is the option here? To not seek any help. If we truly believe the medical system is totally useless, we don't use it. That is an option.

I say, work within it, knowing we have to claw our way along.

D

OK, I'm done.


----------



## Scattered (Mar 8, 2005)

There is a difference between saying that 80% of people on this board *have* BPD or can be *characterized* as having the disorder. I chose to phrase it in the latter form to illustrate my opinion that the criteria for BPD in *some* cases can be arbitrary. I believe an individual can have almost all of those symptoms and not be considered BPD. I also believe that if one of these highly functioning individuals were to go to different psychiatrists they may be diagnosed as having BPD regardless of their functionality. Now obviously this is highly speculative. But it serves to bring to mind the idea that there is a level of subjectivity and error inherent within the diagnostic process as dakatojo said. If there was a way to have a brain scan of an individual that 100% confirmed BPD, and this was done in all cases, then I'd have no basis for an argument. Otherwise, I make this argument to say that an individual does not have to be a specialist or to have poured over tomes of psychiatric information to be allowed to express his or her opinion, which may be contrary to the accepted view. This doesn't mean throw out the baby with the bathwater. This just means to always be sure to retain the ability to influence your own future within the system and always retain the ability to exit or change if need be.

The reason I didn't want to reply is because this is always considered a personal attack against the person upholding their beliefs. Obviously you have educated yourself about mental health, grew up in conditions that influenced your belief or disbelief in the system, and found a way to make it work for you. When I criticize the system or method of diagnosis it is my own opinion and is not mean't to influence anyone specifically. It's just an exchange of ideas and I would hope that we can be free to diagree without resorting to hurt feelings or long fights. Obviously there is alot of emotion invested in these issues that it might provoke such a response. So when you reply to me, remember that I'm not trying to be a bastard. just expressing a contrary viewpoint, which you may consider uninformed or ignorant, but I believe its still valid. As for the comment in the beginning of my post, it was just mean't to be a joke, to say that Im not always sure what I'm talking about and try not to be arrogant.


----------



## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

When it comes to BPD I am not well read either. I found that with the one person I knew with BPD, the characteristics were clear to me as an observer.

I personally relate to one of the criteria myself very strongly. But I think the idea with the criteria is that it is a list of aspects of a *clinical picture*. Relating to a few of the symptoms is not the same as relating to most of or all of them.

As I say, when I met this man with BPD I noticed a few things. Over time, the list of nuances got longer. When I finally layed eyes on the BPD criteria, it all fit perfectly. For some reason that convinced me of the genuine existance of this particular disorder, regardless of whether it can be proven or not.

Incidentally, I found the individual concerned to be emotionally abusive and manipulative and wished I had known about BPD and how to deal with a person with BPD beforehand. In the end I felt I had been emotionally used, although I wasn't exactly able to say how or why that was the case.

The cumulative effect of the characteristics of Borderline can be extremely destructive.

This is not to put down people who have the disorder, but I believe that it is the type of disorder that one is better off knowing about if they suffer from it or have contact with someone that does.


----------



## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Dear Everyone,
I've just been reading around a bit to see what different sources think of Borderline and came across this, which is at the very least, quite interesting:

_Some researchers, like Judith Herman, believe that BPD is a name given to a particular manifestation of post-traumatic stress disorder: in Trauma and Recovery, she theorizes that when PTSD takes a form that emphasizes heavily its elements of identity and relationship disturbance, it gets called BPD; when the somatic (body) elements are emphasized, it gets called hysteria, and when the dissociative/deformation of consciousness elements are the focus, it gets called DID/MPD. _

It was at this address if you want to know the context:

http://www.palace.net/llama/psych/bpd.html

Best Wishes


----------



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Dear Miss Starling -- is it Clarice? 8)

Fascinating link and theory. Link appreciated.
And this is very interesting from your link:


> Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms


The "stress related paranoid ideation" is part of the reason I believe this was called "borderline" -- "on the border of psychosis" - another concept which I believe is out of date, or heading that way. Also, here the severe dissociative symptoms are mentioned. I understand this stuff the dissociative symptoms are short lived, not chronic. As are bouts of severe anxiety and depression, unlike those of us here with more chronic anxiety.

I agree this is a controversial diagnosis, as is DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder), but I must say again, those people I have known who are truly BPD fit the bulk of the criteria, not one or two of the sypmtoms, but the majority.

Also *Scattered* I see our debate is twofold and your point is about diagnosis, not necessarily the diagnostic criteria of BPD.

*IF we agree that the DSM criteria outlining BPD is correct, that someone with the majority of the symptoms delineated is indeed Borderline, then in that case, the diagnosis is correct. And where did they get this criteria? From patients who presented with it! The cluster of symptoms. It wasn't created out of wholecloth.

However, what you are saying is a doctor could see SOME of these traits and misdiagnose someone with BPD. That is a completely different scenario.*

We are then talking about bad doctors, not a bad outline of how to diagnoses a particular illness.

Yes, there are horrible psychiatrists out there who have no clue in particular about DP. And they may diagnose "psychosis" or something like that, but it seems unlikely that someone would get diagnosed as Borderline Personality DISORDER (the whole nine yards), if that isn't what they are.

No, I don't worship the medical community, but one could pick many disorders in the DSM, and say we would get misdiagnosed with them. You could also say that of many medical diagnoses -- bad doctor, bad diagnosis. It doesn't mean the collective listed symptoms are wrong, it means the doctor is ill informed.

If you ever watch "Mystery Diagnosis" on Discovery Health -- I love mysteries -- you can see how MEDICAL illnesses can't be diagnosed, even when a patient is dying, if the illness is very rare, if certain things aren't taken into account. That is one extreme. (In a number of cases a spouse is poisoning the other with arsenic or rat poison -- not usually
considered, and the symptoms mimic many other diseases.)

Your argument then as I see it, is that psychiatrists we are seeing are highly likely to diagnose members of this board with BPD -- even if we have only "a few of the symptoms".

I would again say, there is plenty of misdiagnosis here, and re: DP itself most doctors don't know what to do with it -- that's because there is no set treatment for it. But I'd say in all my years on this board, there have been actual Borderline patients, yes, but that BPD wouldn't be a suspected immediate diagnosis.

What is important is that a psychiatrist get a detailed history/family history of a patient, spend TIME with a patient, give the patient a battery of written and cognitive tests before coming to a diagnosis. This was my experience. I was lucky, I have good health insurance, I am not afraid to challenge a doctor on an observation, etc. In that case, aside from "try an antipsychotic", I have never been misdiagnosed, and my BP traits were only noted in hindsight ... they lessened with age. Mainly my rage, oversensitivity, black and white thinking, and fear of abandonment.

And it makes sense that I came from an abusive family which was also considered over the years.

At any rate, there is a difference between saying:

"Attempting to categorize a group of symptoms, that (as Miss Starling says) provides a clinical picture that doctors can compare a patient's symptoms to."

VS.

"Psychiatrists today are not familiar with current trends in diagnosis and make frequent mistakes."

Hell, I've had medical doctors make more mistakes in diagnosis with me than psychiatrists. My problems have come with regualr doctors, who also treat certain things very agressively when it isn't necessary. With meds and surgery!

We all have to be aware of this, be careful of this, re: our total mental health.

Ah, and one psychiatrist missed a true retinal detachment I had at 24 as "an hysterical symptom" -- OMG -- and in a sense, how was he to know? I was far too young to have retinal detachments. I had to have surgery in both eyes to save my sight. Someone at work overheard me talking on the phone and said -- get to the doctor, your retinas are detaching.

So, we're talking about two things.
And now I think I'm done.
Again Miss Starling, thank you for that link.
D

Ah, and how can I not have my own point of view, honed from my background, my education, my experiences, my own studies. We are all that way.


----------



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

PS -- I have yet to see more than a few paranoid individuals on this site... though again, impossible to say as I've only met some people from here, but have seen paranoia in action. Could be wrong.

But there are people here with OCD, Panic Attacks, Bipolar, Depression, etc. Those diagnoses fit far better.

My mother -- high functioning, sadly a psychiatrist, LOL -- had very brief episodes of paranoia. She fits a profile described in a book "The Borderline Mother." The personality type is VERY clear. Even if you don't know what you're seeing (I didn't know what was wrong with her as a child), later research, again in hindsight and in discussing her abuse with various therapists of mine, this Dx made the most sense for her.

Though Paranoid personality could have fit a bit or Narcissistic. She also didn't cut, threaten suicide, etc. But in terms of an overall picture of what she might be displaying, BPD was the most LOGICAL diagnosis. And of course she was trying to treat herself by being a shrink. She also devalued her patients, talked about them to me, and felt extraordinarily superior to them, and to me, as we all were "defective."

Still gives me the creeps.

And I never knew my grandparents/her parents, but there was indeed a question about her father being overly strict and cruel. Yet her sister and her brother did not have BPD -- my aunt may have been depressed. And she married two alcoholics though. Didn't know my uncle. Go figure.


----------

