# Atheism the cure?



## Guest

Ive been looking into science a lot and hell we got no soul consciousness is from the brain so there goes the fear of others maybe bein fake(solipism)

Its harsh to face reality THERES NO DEEP PURPOSE to your life... Well thats the truth and we are escaping death in delusions of spirituality etc. I think this is what makes us vulnerable fearing TRUTH

Finding personal purpose is the best and being able to live with that

Atleast then reality should COME BACK


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## Guest

Personal purpose can only be found by "kidding yourself".


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## Guest

Nah life is life if ur helping someone thats a real purpose


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## Guest

Ashes to ashes... you'd both be ashes in years to come... aka "all in vein".


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## Guest

If anything? I believe Atheism is one of the courses of DR/DP. Although I?m not religious because I need proof? not ?faith?? I can?t just give ?faith? towards something I do not understand? and to ?understand it?? I need to over come my dyslexia; which I am doing.


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## Guest

No it matters to YOU and others on the planet although there is no God watchnig over us


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## Guest

Of course it matters to me? because it relates to the DR/DP I have and do not wish for. It does not matter to millions of others because they have chosen to kid them selves.

Would a mod kindly move this to : ?Spirituality (God, Religions, New Age, etc.) Debate? please? Thank you.


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## falling_free

I don't think athiesm is a cure for dp at all, If anything it could provoke an exsistential crisis, as people strive to find a meaning beyond that taught in spritual books.

I am an athiest , but I don't think it had any bearing on my dp severity at all (I don't really have DP anymore though).

Saying that I did used to believe in some wacky shit and I think ceasing to beleive that did have a positive life affirming effect, if not an effect on my DP.


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## Guest

Hello *Falling_free* (Didn't you use to be called Free_falling, or is that just my dyslexia playing with me... lol?)

May I ask how it felt to be cured of DP... Do you now have a sense of "who you are"?

Thanks


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## Guest

yeah but religion is really not a faith its a delusion.
ECSPECIALLY christianity just read a essay on christian believers is actuallly sufferin stockholm syndrome

"BELIEVE IN A LOVING GOD OR BE SENT TO HELL FOR ETERNITY BUT IF U DO AS THE BIBLE SAYS U ARE SAVED TO PARADISE"

Very much as kidnapping "I can kill u but if u play along Ill be nice"

This is scientifically and psychlogically FACT not just anti christian ..

Ofcourse it can cause a existenial anxiety but ull get over it and atleast NO delusions like solipism...
When u know ur consciousness comes from ur physical brain/body everyone has it to.


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## Guest

wOOt? you?re fire walking mate? lol. I some what agree ?myself? that faith is a delusion, although I would also like make others aware that I respect their choice (Well not really? I don?t really care what other?s believe: Each to their own). I learnt from my counsellor that the bible was written by four different people at different times, and so I have learnt something new and have been ?corrected?. I feel that if I were to make a judgment on the matter? it would be a delusional one it?s self because I do not have the information I need on ?all? religions to say ?yes or no?.

Meds are the way pal? get pill popping!... HAhahha *Goes nuts*


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## Guest

Basically I don give a fuc if I offend them they offend me 
Their god did nothn for me when I tried out the delusion.
http://www.godisimaginary.com is all u need to understand christianity

as for buddhism hinduism i studied and practiced.
There is no point even buddha said there was no reincarnation of the self only rebirth of the essence(which is not u) .
waste of life in my opinion ... u can go agnostic however atheist using scientific methd but still nt DENYING completely the existance of a God as it cant be proven 100%

but as for christianity LOL
Darwin raped that faithP

2 things is good wih religion: 1# morals #2 can help a person wih a terminal disease have somethin to hold on to and give peace in last months r wahtever


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## jimmyb

I think you guys need to stop worrying about faith religion and DP and seek you own spiritual guidence - the higher self, the subconscious, belief and understanding in yourself as well as living the moment is one possible way of overcoming this living hell.

It ain't easy but you are what you think!


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## falling_free

Darren said:


> Hello *Falling_free* (Didn't you use to be called Free_falling, or is that just my dyslexia playing with me... lol?)
> 
> May I ask how it felt to be cured of DP... Do you now have a sense of "who you are"?
> 
> Thanks


Always been called falling_Free

It felt good to be mostly on the whole DP free, though I still have the odd days of foggieness and feeling like I don't exsist. I couldn't say I am Depersonlised anymore though, I just have the odd bad day like I think a lot of people. I really have more of a problem with delusional type thinking , not that I can engage in much of it anymore, but that is still my main problem ... delusional thinking , thoughts of granduer etc. My doctor actually diagnosed me schzioaffective which is similiar to bipolar but with elements of scizophenia, but now im medicated im really alright and normal 99% of the time.

For me DP was always part of my intial cannabis pychosis, it has worn off as the years have gone by.

But being free of it is liberating.


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## Guest

Thanks for your reply falling_free.


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## Dreamer

Think this needs to be moved to spiritual debate. IMHO.


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## LOSTONE

Emulated Pupped I just have to clarify something for you.



> I need proof? not ?faith?


It is understandable to want proof of anything that is an important issue.

Do you realize that the bible teaches that we should seek out proof of things?

Yes that is actually what the bible teaches.

Faith in fact does not mean a lack of proof.

Heb 11:1
Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.

It is assured because of proof.

No matter if you believe in the bible or not. I just want you all to understand that the bible does not teach that faith should be blind. Actually the bible teaches that we should all have the accurate knowledge of facts.

The bible actually talks a lot about accurate knowledge!

Romans 10:2-3 
For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge; 3 for, because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

Php 1:9-11
9 And this is what I continue praying, that YOUR love may abound yet more and more with accurate knowledge and full discernment; 10 that YOU may make sure of the more important things, so that YOU may be flawless and not be stumbling others up to the day of Christ, 11 and may be filled with righteous fruit, which is through Jesus Christ, to God?s glory and praise.

Col 1:9,10
9 That is also why we, from the day we heard [of it], have not ceased praying for YOU and asking that YOU may be filled with the accurate knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual comprehension, 10 in order to walk worthily of Jehovah to the end of fully pleasing [him] as YOU go on bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the accurate knowledge of God,

The bible obviously does not teach that faith should be blind or that faith should be based upon anything other then proof. It is the proof that is given about things that builds up a mans faith to a point so that he is able to dedicate himself to God and endure all things even unto death for God. God does not expect us to just follow him blindly. It is not the creator of this world that wants for us to be blinded. It is the ruler of this world that wants us to be blinded.

2 Co 4:3,4
3 If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

1 John 5:19 
We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one.

Notice what this says.

The bible teaches that this world we are living in is being ruled over by the "wicked one". This wicked one is the one that wants for everyone to be blinded.

It is not the aim of the bible to blind people or to teach that people should put faith in God just because they are told to. The bible teaches that we should search for truth and never stop searching for truth!

Proverbs 2:3-9
3 if, moreover, you call out for understanding itself and you give forth your voice for discernment itself, 4 if you keep seeking for it as for silver, and as for hid treasures you keep searching for it, 5 in that case you will understand the fear of Jehovah, and you will find the very knowledge of God. 6 For Jehovah himself gives wisdom; out of his mouth there are knowledge and discernment. 7 And for the upright ones he will treasure up practical wisdom; for those walking in integrity he is a shield, 8 by observing the paths of judgment, and he will guard the very way of his loyal ones. 9 In that case you will understand righteousness and judgment and uprightness, the entire course of what is good.

Mt 7:7-11
7 ?Keep on asking, and it will be given YOU; keep on seeking, and YOU will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to YOU. 8 For everyone asking receives, and everyone seeking finds, and to everyone knocking it will be opened. 9 Indeed, who is the man among YOU whom his son asks for bread?he will not hand him a stone, will he? 10 Or, perhaps, he will ask for a fish?he will not hand him a serpent, will he? 11 Therefore, if YOU, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to YOUR children, how much more so will YOUR Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?

The point is that if you want proof then you can find it. 
There is proof. 
But it is your choice to search for that proof yourself. You need to search for God. God does not need to search for you, he knows more about you then you even know about yourself.

You can all believe whatever you want.

I am simply trying to clear up the very wrong idea that all faith in God is blind.

It is true that many people are teaching that faith in God is a blind faith but that is obviously not what the bible teaches.

As the bible says. This world is being mislead. And even many of the so called "men of God" are actually the ones doing the misleading. Jesus spoke of these false "men of God" back in his time.

He called them blind guides.

Mt 15:12-14
12 Then the disciples came up and said to him: ?Do you know that the Pharisees stumbled at hearing what you said?? 13 In reply he said: ?Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted. 14 LET them be. Blind guides is what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.?

Those Pharisees were teaching people lies about God and making it very hard for people to come to know God. This does not please God and all of this is talked about in the bible.

Things are no different in our days. Actually in many ways the situation is worse now then it was back then. Many people that claim to teach about the bible are actually making the truth harder to understand. This is why it seems to many people that faith is something that requires no proof.

This is not a bible teaching. There is proof. There is a massive amount of proof. But as the bible says, we need to search for the truth as if we were searching for hidden treasure. Our lives depend upon it. There is nothing more important.

God would never expect anyone to follow him blindly.

The fact that the truth is hard to find should not make us apathetic. 
It should make us want to search out the truth about things even more because the truth is not going to just land in our lap.

By accepting apathy you are sadly accepting your own set of beliefs without putting in any effort at all.

Everyone has beliefs.

Many people accept the belief that God does not exist or that God does not care about us simply because God does not personally tell each one of us what is going on face to face.

God has done his part though. He is not the one with the problem. 
He actually has gave us all the knowledge we need and he has proved himself to us time and time again.

Sadly most of the world is blindly putting faith into apathy, rather then searching out the truth about God. 
It is the apathetic faith of the world that is blind.

Emulated Puppet}eer if you really want proof then I assure you that you can find it!

Faith is usually about the future events but the faith that the bible talks about is backed up with proof.

It is backed up with proof because the bible has mounds of proven facts in it that teach us exactly who God is and why things are so messed up here on earth. There are many prophecies in the bible and they are all totally accurate. Actually the very first prophecy was in Genesis 3:15. That was a prophecy about Jesus. There are thousands of others that have all come true. It is known that Alexander the great actually spared the city of Jerusalem because of the prophecy about him. That prophecy also came true by the way.

There has not been one single time that the bible has been proven to be wrong!! Many, many people have tried to prove the bible wrong on historical accounts or on scientific matters but nobody has ever been able to prove anything the bible has said to be wrong or to be a lie. The only thing people can do is just twist what the bible actually teaches.

So this is what faith is. It is the assured expectation of things hoped for although not beheld yet. The faith is there because of the mounds and mounds of factual evidence that backs up the truth about God. The fact that God has not let us down even one single time is what builds up our faith for the future. Faith in God does not mean faith in God's existence. God's existence is a very provable reality, the proof is actually all around you. Faith in God means putting trust into the things that God has said to us. Putting trust into the fact that God will not let this earth be brought to ruin and he will not let the human race totally destroy themselves. Faith in God means placing trust into what God says about our future on this planet.

Faith is about putting trust into these words.

Re 21:3,4
3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: ?Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.?

The trust and faith are built up because of all the proof that we have that every word that God speaks has and will always come true.

Or as God himself has said.
Isaiah 55:11
so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it.

God has already provided us with proof.

Faith is based upon that proof.


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## LOSTONE

MentallyIll

Just something you might want to think about.

When exactly have you proven the bible to be wrong?

As I noted before, the bible has never been proven wrong about anything. Not even one word of the bible has been proven wrong!

I don't think that can be said about any other book ever wrote, yet the bible is actually not just one book but a collection of 66 books that were wrote over about a 2,000 year period!

If anyone can prove the bible wrong about any issue then that would be something for the history books. It has never been done before.

Everything in the bible that is provable "HAS BEEN PROVED". (future issues obviously needing some "faith" that is based upon facts and accurate knowledge)
And nothing has ever been disproved.

So if your going to put faith into nothing then you should ask yourself first when exactly you have proven the bible to be wrong about anything.

And remember, faith in nothing is just another form of blind faith. 
It is the faith of not knowing and not caring. It is the faith of apathy. Faith of death.

There is much more to life then death.


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## Guest

Welll what about the spaghetti monster.. it havent been prven wron does this mean a spaghetti monster rules the universe

as for the bible weell evolution and the fact that earth is 4.7billion years old proves a lot .
has anything of the bible been proven real. no

the brain is responsibly for personality memories and consciousness so what then is the soul


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## falling_free

> Everything in the bible that is provable "HAS BEEN PROVED". (future issues obviously needing some "faith" that is based upon facts and accurate knowledge)
> And nothing has ever been disproved.


Uhhh Virgin births???? Talking snakes??? Parting of Seas???? creating a women from a blokes rib??? resururection after death???

Iv'e never heard any scientific evidence or proofs for any of these things.

To believe in them requires faith, or as a I like to think of it, pulling the wool over your own eyes.

Can't people relize by now that these stories are MYTHS?????

I mean just look at the scientology cult and it's incredible stories of bullshit!! Yet people believe it and it grows as a 'relgion/Cult' , much like other 'relgion/cults' in the past...

But feel free to believe whatever nonsense suits you best......


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## Guest

hahaha exactly and the other fact ive noticed is that the more knowldge we get the more complicated the cults get.


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## falling_free

haha yeh , scientology has to be the most whacked out one yet though


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## Guest

Hello LOSTONE... Thanks for the reply... I'll get back to It when I've woken up (that'll be tonight before I go to sleep :roll: )...

May I have your thoughs on "gay priests/bishops" please?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Robinson

Thanks.


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## Guest

ahaahaahahahahahahahhahahaahahahahaWHATHAFACK does people bellieve this aaaaaDUD WTFFFFFFFFFFFF


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## Pablo

You cant disprove the Bible because it is mostly all allegory and metaphor, it is not meant to be taken literally, anyone that does think that all that stuff actually happened needs serious help.


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## LOSTONE

What I said is that everything that is "provable" about the bible has been proved.

And there has never been any facts that disprove the bible.

Evolution is a theory and it takes more faith to believe in the evolution theory then anything else because all of the hard data goes against the theory.

Science has not proven anything about evolution and there are not many scientist in the world that would agree on how old the earth or the universe is either. Science is very blurry when it comes to such issues.

The bible does not put a date on how old the earth is anyway. And it does not give us all the details of creation. It also leaves out many details on many other issues.

What has been proved is all of the historical accounts in the bible. Many historians have tried many times to prove the bible wrong on historical data. Some issues being so called contradictions of the bible on historical accounts. Every time the bible has been challenged on historical accounts the bible has held up to be truthful. Also when it comes to prophecy the bible is just as accurate as it is when speaking about things in the past. It is actually so accurate that many historians have tried to prove that the prophecies were actually wrote after the fact, because they are all so accurate and dead on that they are unbelievable for people that do not believe the bible is the word of God. There is proof that backs up the dates of the writing of many prophetic books of the bible that are no longer disputed.

So my point about the bible is that it has never been proven to be wrong on any issue small or great. And at the same time it has proven itself to be truthful on thousands of historical accounts and also on issues of Science and with revealing future events in great detail giving exact names and dates of events.

The prophecies of the bible that have already come true are so accurate and in such great detail that they read like a history book by themselves. Actually they are more reliable then any history book because history books wrote by men often have errors in them. The Prophecies of the bible have no errors and have been proven correct on every single account. There are still some prophecies that have not taken place yet but given the bible's record I personally put all my faith into the fulfillment of the remaining bible prophecies. There are actually some prophecies being fulfilled right now! For example, the preaching of the good news of God's Kingdom throughout the entire earth.

I understand it is easy to scoff at some of what the bible says and say that it is all just "tall tails". There are parts of the bible that require "faith" but I will repeat that the faith we are required to have is not supposed to be blind faith. If the bible is taken seriously and you are really truthfully searching for God with an open heart then God will guide you to the truth.

God wrote the bible the way that it is for a reason.

Mt 11:25 
At that time Jesus said in response: ?I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.

God does not need our praise and he does not care for the haughty people of this earth. Why would he? He is the creator of the universe, we are simply dust standing before him. The bible was wrote in a way so that the only people able to grasp the truth about God would be those that have the right heart condition.

Pr 21:2
Every way of a man is upright in his own eyes, but Jehovah is making an estimate of hearts.

This does not mean that you have to be stupid in order to understand who God is. What it does mean is that the wise men of the earth will never come to know God if they do not have the right heart condition. The bible is wrote in such a way so that it is understandable to all people that have the right heart condition but so that it is confusing toward anyone that does not have the right heart condition.

1Co 3:18-20
18 Let no one be seducing himself: If anyone among YOU thinks he is wise in this system of things, let him become a fool, that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God; for it is written: ?He catches the wise in their own cunning.? 20 And again: ?Jehovah knows that the reasonings of the wise men are futile.?

This means that in order to come to know the truth about God, you must first let go of your own reasonings and rely upon God to set your thoughts right. This is why the bible is wrote the way that it is. If anyone is unwilling to actually search for God with an honest heart then they will never find him.

So it does take some faith in order to fully understand what the bible says and in order to apply it toward your life. But my entire point is that this faith is not supposed to be blind. The bible does not teach that we should follow any teaching blindly!

Faith in the bible is linked with knowledge and wisdom!

Philippians 1:9
And this is what I continue praying, that YOUR love may abound yet more and more with accurate knowledge and full discernment

That is why the bible says to keep searching for the truth!
If the bible was a book of lies then it would not so greatly stress the need for searching out the truth. There are many scriptures that urge us to keep searching for truth and to examine everything so that we will not be mislead about anything.

About the issue of Homosexuality.

It is a very clear teaching of the bible.

Actually all the teachings of the bible are very clear. They become unclear because of the teachings of men. I will not give my opinion of what the bible teaches. Anyone that is handing out opinions about the bible is teaching lies and should be avoided.

The bible is very clear about any issues regarding how we should be living our lives. There is no room for opinions.

Romans 1:24-32
24 Therefore God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, that their bodies might be dishonored among them, 25 even those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the One who created, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; 27 and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error.

28 And just as they did not approve of holding God in accurate knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting, 29 filled as they were with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, badness, being full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malicious disposition, being whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, insolent, haughty, self-assuming, inventors of injurious things, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, false to agreements, having no natural affection, merciless. 32 Although these know full well the righteous decree of God, that those practicing such things are deserving of death, they not only keep on doing them but also consent with those practicing them.

1Tim 1:9-11
9 in the knowledge of this fact, that law is promulgated, not for a righteous man, but for persons lawless and unruly, ungodly and sinners, lacking loving-kindness, and profane, murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, manslayers, 10 fornicators, men who lie with males, kidnappers, liars, false swearers, and whatever other thing is in opposition to the healthful teaching 11 according to the glorious good news of the happy God, with which I was entrusted.

1Co 6:9-11
9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God?s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God?s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.

1Thess 4:3-8
3 For this is what God wills, the sanctifying of YOU, that YOU abstain from fornication; 4 that each one of YOU should know how to get possession of his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in covetous sexual appetite such as also those nations have which do not know God; 6 that no one go to the point of harming and encroach upon the rights of his brother in this matter, because Jehovah is one who exacts punishment for all these things, just as we told YOU beforehand and also gave YOU a thorough witness. 7 For God called us, not with allowance for uncleanness, but in connection with sanctification. 8 So, then, the man that shows disregard is disregarding, not man, but God, who puts his holy spirit in YOU.

Now I will ask you a question.

Do you think it is fitting for a man that is sinning against God to be teaching other people about God?

And do you think that a man that is sinning against God is going to be teaching the truth about God?

These are questions that should have a very easy answer with just a little bible knowledge.

It is not my opinion that homosexuality is wrong. It is the teaching of the bible that homosexuality is wrong and also fornication is wrong. You have just read the scriptures for yourself.


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## LOSTONE

> You cant disprove the Bible because it is mostly all allegory and metaphor


No actually the bible is filled with mounds of factual evidence.

It covers thousands of years of historical data and also has scientific data that has proven to be truthful on every account.

There are some accounts in the bible that have not been proven yet but they have not been proven wrong either. What is amazing is that there has never been one single fact of the bible that has been proven to be wrong. So I think it should be clear that any unproven facts of the bible are all truth. I say that because of the bible's perfect track record.

For example.

Isaiah 40:22,23
22 There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell, 23 the One who is reducing high officials to nothing, who has made the very judges of the earth as a mere unreality.

That was wrote a very long time before most people knew that the earth was round. At the time of writing that scientific fact most people thought that the earth was flat. This is just one example among many of how the bible could have been proven wrong but was in fact proven to be the truth. The fact that the bible has never been proven wrong on any account is astounding.

There is already more proof then is needed! 
Proof is not the problem.


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## brandon is not taken

LOSTONE said:


> What I said is that everything that is "provable" about the bible has been proved.
> 
> And there has never been any facts that disprove the bible.


Everything that is provable about it has been proven. What an empty meaningless statement.

And i would like to go back to what falling free said.

"Uhhh Virgin births???? Talking snakes??? Parting of Seas???? creating a women from a blokes rib??? resururection after death???""

Here are 5 things which are in the bible and are also total nonsence. Why did u not discuss these things? Did u miss this post?


LOSTONE said:


> Evolution is a theory and it takes more faith to believe in the evolution theory then anything else because all of the hard data goes against the theory.
> 
> Science has not proven anything about evolution and there are not many scientist in the world that would agree on how old the earth or the universe is either. Science is very blurry when it comes to such issues.


Evolution is a theory just like gravity is a theory. Dont try to downplay its significance because it is "only a theory". Learn science before you try to discuss it. What is this "hard data" that goes against evolution. Usually it is good to provide a citation when you make such an outrageous claim.

There are many many things supporting evolution. From fossil records to antibiotic resistant bacteria. I have never heard about data that is against evolution. Science is not blurry at all. It is completly straightforward and precise. Religion on the other hand is nothing but abstract metaphor.

I gotta go, i dont have enough time to refute all your crazy ideas.


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## flipwilson

MentallyIll said:


> but as for christianity LOL
> Darwin raped that faithP
> 
> 2 things is good wih religion: 1# morals #2 can help a person wih a terminal disease have somethin to hold on to and give peace in last months r wahtever


Mentally Ill or those interested, id suggest if youd care to, to read a book called Darwin's Black Box by Michael J. Behe. The author is not a Christian, just a Biochemistry professor who thinks Evolution is not totally correct in its assumptions especially those who believe in traditional Darwinian theory. Just remember to that Evolution even by scientists is still regarded as theory, as in 'not proven', so the 'faith' it takes to believe in a big bang is no less than the 'faith' to believe in God. Further more, knowing why something works doesnt mean we know why or how it exists.

Also regarding Christianity you might want to pick up Can Man Live without God by Ravi Zacharias or The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel or anything by Greg Boyd, they may not change your mind, but may be interesting reads just as well.

Peace.


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## Guest

faith (TRUST) ... Well I don't trust any of the choices at the moment because they are all full of shite... I'll keep chillin out in my mind for the time being... :?


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## Guest

DUDEWTFFFFFFFFFF i will not even respond if u get yourself to believe in God ahaahaaa HF MAN!

evolution is not A THEORY its a proven fact gawd damn why is it proven humansshare 99% same DNA as monkeys. God cant be very creative

Actually the old testament says we must stone non virgin girls, disobedient teens, gays and more to death for no apparent reason.

Its like 80% of earth

And why is it that God made gays , just to hae them tortured? Ur god is crazy and sadistic

"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion."

"Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon -- it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flys back to its flock to claim victory."



a serious note : while its ridiculously unny to lauh at christians its also a serious thing they cant help it as they have been deluded so bad they dont dare to think for themself outtside the box(bible) in fear of bein sent to hell


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## CECIL

Ugh, Religion vs Science again. I'd sooner smash my head against a brick wall, it would be much more productive.

Just wanted to chime in with one thing for Darren about needing to understand before you can take action. I have a lot of problems with that too - its like I always need to understand how something is happening and KNOW exactly what will happen before I do it.

But we've got it backwards - you can NEVER understand something completely. You can NEVER know exactly what will happen. There will ALWAYS be an element of fear in everything we do. But you've just gotta do it anyway.

Because the only way you can understand something is to experience it. The only way to get rid of fear is confront it and move through it.

Turn it around - Seeing isn't believing. Believing is seeing. You've gotta have faith first. Doesn't matter what you have faith in, just that you have it at all.

Also I just noticed your sig MentallyIll: "This time I will recover or die trying". That's a really powerful intent! Perfect


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## brandon is not taken

flipwilson said:


> Mentally Ill or those interested, id suggest if youd care to, to read a book called Darwin's Black Box by Michael J. Behe. The author is not a Christian, just a Biochemistry professor who thinks Evolution is not totally correct in its assumptions especially those who believe in traditional Darwinian theory. Just remember to that Evolution even by scientists is still regarded as theory, as in 'not proven', so the 'faith' it takes to believe in a big bang is no less than the 'faith' to believe in God.  Further more, knowing why something works doesnt mean we know why or how it exists.
> Peace.


See my above post where i talked about your argument saying evolution is "just a theory." Anyone who makes this argument has obviously never studied science a day past middle school.

Yes, evolution is a thoery, but the scientific meaning of theory is vastly different then its everyday missusage. Here is what wikipedia has to say.

COMMON USAGE
In common usage, people often use the word theory to signify a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation. In this usage, a theory is not necessarily based on facts; in other words, it is not required to be consistent with true descriptions of reality. True descriptions of reality are more reflectively understood as statements that would be true independently of what people think about them. In this usage, the word is synonymous with hypothesis.

SCIENTIFIC USAGE*
In science, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or atestable model* of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and *capable of being* tested through experiment or otherwise* falsified through empirical observation. *It follows from this that for scientists* "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition.* For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theories commonly used to describe and explain this behaviour are Newton's *theory of universal gravitation *(see also gravitation), and General relativity.

see? so your argument is totally fallicious. Got another one i can argue?


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## LOSTONE

> while its ridiculously unny to lauh at christians its also a serious thing they cant help it as they have been deluded so bad they dont dare to think for themself outtside the box(bible) in fear of bein sent to hell


Actually it was thinking outside of the box that got me to start reading the bible in the first place.

It was my search for truth that led me to the knowledge that I now have.

I looked at myself in the mirror one day and thought about ending my life. I thought about how amazing it was that I was ever even born in the first place and that got me thinking about God. Before I was going to leave this world I wanted to know the truth about things first. So I started searching for answers to many questions that most people are afraid to ask.

Yes there are many things in the bible that are not provable and require faith.

That faith is not supposed to be blind though and it is supported by facts.

God has provided us with everything that we need in order to get to know him well.

Since the bible has proven to be correct on every single account provable, it is not very hard to believe that everything the bible says is truth. Just because there are things in the bible we can not fully understand or prove does not mean anything. It is not to great of a thing to understand that the creator of the universe can bring someone back from the dead. It is actually a simple matter for God to bring people back from death. What is a big deal is that the bible has NEVER been proven wrong about anything. 
And there are thousands of accounts of factual data that will help anyone build their faith in God's word and in God's Kingdom.

I am well aware that not everyone is going to agree with me but my main point is that the bible does not teach that faith should be blind. Faith should be based upon accurate knowledge. And anyone that is wanting to learn about the bible should keep that in mind because many "teachers" in this world will teach that most questions about the bible can not be answered, when in fact all important questions about the bible are answered already.

Questions such as 
What is the meaning of life?
What happens to us when we die?
What is going to be the future of this planet?
Why is suffering and pain tolerated by an all powerful and very loving God?
Why is there so much confusion about who God is?
What is the most important issue in the universe?

These questions are answered in the bible but most religions on earth sadly teach that these are unanswerable questions.


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## Guest

Thank you *CECIL*? I feel some what like yourself, although you?re much more able then I am? although I can improve If I wish it so.

Experience is ?understanding?? and understanding is having a non-religious faith in what you believe (if you?re not religious)? although? ?Believing is seeing?? Same could be said about ?brain washing? = ?Brain washing is seeing??

I lack any faith? ?Faith can move mountains.??. so can ignorance.

Cotton can not be covered over my eyes? I?d analyse it before it had the chance?


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## falling_free

> The prophecies of the bible that have already come true are so accurate and in such great detail that they read like a history book by themselves. Actually they are more reliable then any history book because history books wrote by men often have errors in them. The Prophecies of the bible have no errors and have been proven correct on every single account. There are still some prophecies that have not taken place yet but given the bible's record I personally put all my faith into the fulfillment of the remaining bible prophecies. There are actually some prophecies being fulfilled right now! For example, the preaching of the good news of God's Kingdom throughout the entire earth.


My knowledge of scripture isn't too great but which prophecies do you refer to that have come true???

I for one sincerly hope that the prophechies of the bible never ever come true, other wise I am destined for a lifetime in neverending pain in hell after the apocolpyse comes.

Nice.... :roll:


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## Guest

What is the meaning of life?

In nature: Survival - As evolved animals(humans): creating ur own u only live once so enjoy it to the fullest

What happens to us when we die?

We decompose to nature aka cease to exist

What is going to be the future of this planet?

Were fucked if we dont chance our behavior and evolution

Why is suffering and pain tolerated by an all powerful and very loving God?

Causehe dont exist so theres noone toleratin shit

Why is there so much confusion about who God is?

Cause its a imagination, kinda like the man in the moon how old is he?

What is the most important issue in the universe?

To us? humanity

Heres one for you:

If there was a God

1: The story of genesis in the bible would have some compatability with the subsequent discoveries of science.

2: The Universe would be a lot smaller. You really don't need distant galaxies which are only visible through highly sophisticated radio telescopes.

3: The sun probably would revolve around the earth. Or at least god could have mentioned to the popes that Copernicus was right, then they wouldn't have looked so silly later on.

4: The Earth could have been designed without plate techtonics. Then you wouldn't have had thousands of people dying agonising deaths in earthquakes and tsunamis, regardless of whether mankind has "sinned."

5: There wouldn't be so many varieties of beetle. Was this some kind of fixation?

6: If you prayed for something - like say that your child would recover from leukaemia - you would get a straight answer, yes or no. Then you wouldn't have to bother with putting them through months of painful treatments.

7: In fact, you wouldn't have to bother with medical science at all. Just prayer.

8: Human adults would only have 28 teeth. And no toe nails. And their spines would have been designed from scratch to facilitate walking upright, instead of causing all sorts of problems with your neck as you go get older.

9: And speaking of the design of humans, we wouldn't need such big brains, as our "spirit" would not be dependent on our neurones. This would mean that childbirth would be considerably easier. And since our spirit would not reside in our brains, Alzheimer's Disease would leave it intact, even if it damaged our physical functions.

10: In fact Alzheimer's Disease wouldn't exist. What sort of god would do that to people?

11: Males wouldnt have nipples



Listen I am happy if it saved ur life or whatever but it doesnt need to be something u have to obey for the rest of ur life.Logic can return after the crisis is over


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## Pablo

LOSTONE said:


> Since the bible has proven to be correct on every single account provable, it is not very hard to believe that everything the bible says is truth.


Like what? what *important* fact in the bible has been proven true, dates? historical figures? events? maybe these have been proven true but you cant suddenly equate that the whole of it is true just because a few details are. some parts of Mein Kampf are true but that doesnt mean that all of it is.



LOSTONE said:


> What is a big deal is that the bible has NEVER been proven wrong about anything..


Scientists dont bother proving that snakes dont talk, that you cant part the sea, that you cant make a woman from a mans rib and that you cant come back from the dead because scientists believe that even the most undeducated human would have enough common sense to plainly understand that these things just dont happen, also there probably is enough evidence out there to disprove these things if you really wanted to anyway.


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## LOSTONE

> Scientists dont bother proving that snakes dont talk, that you cant part the sea, that you cant make a woman from a mans rib and that you cant come back from the dead because scientists believe that even the most undeducated human would have enough common sense to plainly understand that these things just dont happen, also there probably is enough evidence out there to disprove these things if you really wanted to anyway


Keep in mind that there are many things that humans are doing these days that people in the past would have thought impossible!

Those people in the past would have not been able to understand how we are doing many of the things we are doing these days but that does not mean that we are breaking the laws of reality.

It is true snakes don't speak. Snakes never have spoken. The account in the bible was not an account of a snake that spoke, it was an account of a very intelligent spirit named Satan who was speaking through a snake the same way a ventriloquist would speak through a dummy.

I don't have time to argue every single point of the bible because that would take a lifetime.

I will look up some of the prophecies and historical data and post it here but that is going to take me some time so I will post that stuff later today when I have more time.

Science does not conflict with God. The problem is that science is very limited. God is not limited at all. Just because scientists can not create a universe does not mean that this universe does not exist!

It is pointless to say that a "miracle" could not have happened or is unscientific just because it was a "miracle"

Just because we can not do something or understand how something is done does not mean that God does not have the power to do it.

God's power has already been proven toward us by the creation of the universe, the earth and all the living creatures on the earth. Science can not do any of these things but it is very obvious that they have been done. This universe exists. It is not a fantasy. We are living in it.

Our own bodies are designed so well that scientist still are a long way from fully understanding the design of our bodies. Scientist have cracked the code of DNA but they admit that they will probably never be able to fully understand how DNA works. There is so much information packed into DNA that it takes supercomputers to handle all the information!

If everything that science could not explain was said to be an unreality then none of us would be living on this planet. Science is just a feeble way for us to understand the amazing universe that we live in. Science did not create the universe, that is something only our creator has the power to do.

So I will say again, it is pointless to say that a "miracle" is unscientific just because it was a "miracle"

There are many miracles that have been proven already.

Like the fact that we are living and breathing and able to comprehend our world and the creator of our world.

The existence of the universe is one of the biggest miracles ever. 
And I do not think that anyone here will argue that the universe exists.


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## LOSTONE

Here are just a few of the historical and prophetic accounts in the bible.

There are literally thousands of accounts like these in the bible.

*The Exile in Babylon*

2 Hezekiah was king in Jerusalem for about 30 years. In 740 B.C.E. he witnessed the destruction of his northern neighbor Israel at the hands of Assyria. In 732 B.C.E. he experienced God?s saving power, when the Assyrian attempt to conquer Jerusalem had failed, with catastrophic results to the invader.?Isaiah 37:33-38.

3 Now, Hezekiah is receiving a delegation from Merodach-baladan, king of Babylon. On the surface, the ambassadors are there to congratulate Hezekiah on his recovery from a severe illness. Likely, though, Merodach-baladan sees Hezekiah as a possible ally against the world power of Assyria. Hezekiah does nothing to dispel such an idea when he shows the visiting Babylonians all the wealth of his house and dominion. Perhaps he, too, wants allies against a possible return of the Assyrians.?Isaiah 39:1, 2.

4 Isaiah is the outstanding prophet of that time, and he quickly discerns Hezekiah?s indiscretion. He knows that Hezekiah?s surest defense is Jehovah, not Babylon, and tells him that his act of showing the Babylonians his wealth will lead to tragedy. ?Days are coming,? says Isaiah, ?and all that is in your own house and that your forefathers have stored up down to this day will actually be carried to Babylon.? Jehovah decreed: ?Nothing will be left.??Isaiah 39:5, 6.

5 Back in the eighth century B.C.E., it may have seemed unlikely for that prophecy to be fulfilled. One hundred years later, however, the situation changed. Babylon replaced Assyria as the dominant world power, while Judah became so degraded, religiously speaking, that God withdrew his blessing. Now, another prophet, Jeremiah, was inspired to repeat Isaiah?s warning. Jeremiah proclaimed: ?I will bring [the Babylonians] against this land and against its inhabitants . . . And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.??Jeremiah 25:9, 11.

6 About four years after Jeremiah uttered that prophecy, the Babylonians made Judah part of their empire. Three years after that, they took some Jewish captives, along with some of the wealth of the temple at Jerusalem, to Babylon. Eight years later, Judah revolted and was again invaded by the Babylonian king, Nebuchadnezzar. This time, the city and its temple were destroyed. All its wealth, and the Jews themselves, were carried off to distant Babylon, just as Isaiah and Jeremiah had foretold.?2 Chronicles 36:6, 7, 12, 13, 17-21.

7 The Archaeological Encyclopedia of the Holy Land notes that when the Babylonian onslaught was over, ?the destruction of the city [Jerusalem] was a total one.?1 Archaeologist W. F. Albright states: ?Excavation and surface exploration in Judah have proved that the towns of Judah were not only completely destroyed by the Chaldeans in their two invasions, but were not reoccupied for generations?often never again in history.?2 Thus, archaeology confirms the shocking fulfillment of this prophecy.

*The Fate of Tyre*

8 Ezekiel was another ancient writer who recorded divinely inspired prophecies. He prophesied from the end of the seventh century B.C.E. on into the sixth?that is, during the years leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem and then during the first decades of the Jews? exile in Babylon. Even some modern critics agree that the book was written at approximately this time.

9 Ezekiel recorded a striking prophecy about the destruction of Israel?s northern neighbor Tyre, which had gone from a position of friendship with God?s people to one of enmity. (1 Kings 5:1-9; Psalm 83:2-8) He wrote: ?This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ?Here I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring up against you many nations, just as the sea brings up its waves. And they will certainly bring the walls of Tyre to ruin and tear down her towers, and I will scrape her dust away from her and make her a shining, bare surface of a crag. . . . And your stones and your woodwork and your dust they will place in the very midst of the water.???Ezekiel 26:3, 4, 12.

10 Did this really happen? Well, a few years after Ezekiel uttered the prophecy, the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, laid siege to Tyre. (Ezekiel 29:17, 18) It was not, however, an easy siege. Tyre was partially situated on the mainland (the part called Old Tyre). But part of the city was on an island about half a mile [800 m] offshore. Nebuchadnezzar besieged the island for 13 years before it finally submitted to him.

11 It was, however, in 332 B.C.E. that Ezekiel?s prophecy was finally fulfilled in all its details. At that time, Alexander the Great, the conqueror from Macedonia, was invading Asia. Tyre, secure on its island location, held out against him. Alexander did not want to leave a potential enemy at his rear, but he did not want to spend years in a siege of Tyre, as Nebuchadnezzar had done.

12 How did he solve this military problem? He built a land bridge, or mole, across to the island, so that his soldiers could march across and attack the island city. Notice, though, what he used to build the mole. The Encyclopedia Americana reports: ?With the debris of the mainland portion of the city, which he had demolished, he built a huge mole in 332 to join the island to the mainland.? After a relatively short siege, the island city was destroyed. Moreover, Ezekiel?s prophecy was fulfilled in all its details. Even the ?stones and woodwork and dust? of Old Tyre were ?placed in the very midst of the water.?

13 A 19th-century traveler commented on what was left of ancient Tyre in his day, saying: ?Of the original Tyre known to Solomon and the prophets of Israel, not a vestige remains except in its rock-cut sepulchres on the mountain sides, and in foundation walls . . . Even the island, which Alexander the Great, in his siege of the city, converted into a cape by filling up the water between it and the mainland, contains no distinguishable relics of an earlier period than that of the Crusades. The modern town, all of which is comparatively new, occupies the northern half of what was once the island, while nearly all the remainder of the surface is covered with undistinguishable ruins.?3

*Babylon?s Turn*

14 Back in the eighth century B.C.E., Isaiah, the prophet who warned the Jews of their coming subjugation by Babylon, also foretold something astounding: the total annihilation of Babylon itself. He foretold this in graphic detail: ?Here I am arousing against them the Medes . . . And Babylon, the decoration of kingdoms, the beauty of the pride of the Chaldeans, must become as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. She will never be inhabited, nor will she reside for generation after generation.??Isaiah 13:17-20.

15 The prophet Jeremiah also foretold the fall of Babylon, which would take place many years later. And he included an interesting detail: ?There is a devastation upon her waters, and they must be dried up. . . . The mighty men of Babylon have ceased to fight. They have kept sitting in the strong places. Their mightiness has run dry.??Jeremiah 50:38; 51:30.

16 In 539 B.C.E., the time of Babylon?s rule as the preeminent world power came to an end when the vigorous Persian ruler Cyrus, accompanied by the army of Media, marched against the city. What Cyrus found, however, was formidable. Babylon was surrounded by huge walls and seemed impregnable. The great river Euphrates, too, ran through the city and made an important contribution to its defenses.

17 The Greek historian Herodotus describes how Cyrus handled the problem: ?He placed a portion of his army at the point where the river enters the city, and another body at the back of the place where it issues forth, with orders to march into the town by the bed of the stream, as soon as the water became shallow enough . . . He turned the Euphrates by a canal into the basin [an artificial lake dug by a previous ruler of Babylon], which was then a marsh, on which the river sank to such an extent that the natural bed of the stream became fordable. Hereupon the Persians who had been left for the purpose at Babylon by the river-side, entered the stream, which had now sunk so as to reach about midway up a man?s thigh, and thus got into the town.?4

18 In this way the city fell, as Jeremiah and Isaiah had warned. But notice the detailed fulfillment of prophecy. There was literally ?a devastation upon her waters, and they were dried up.? It was the lowering of the waters of the Euphrates that enabled Cyrus to gain access to the city. Did ?the mighty men of Babylon cease to fight,? as Jeremiah had warned? The Bible?as well as the Greek historians Herodotus and Xenophon?records that the Babylonians were actually feasting when the Persian assault occurred.5 The Nabonidus Chronicle, an official cuneiform inscription, says that Cyrus? troops entered Babylon ?without battle,? likely meaning without a major pitched battle.6 Evidently, Babylon?s mighty men did not do much to protect her.

19 What about the forecast that Babylon would ?never be inhabited? again? That was not fulfilled immediately in 539 B.C.E. But unerringly the prophecy came true. After her fall, Babylon was the center of a number of rebellions, until 478 B.C.E. when she was destroyed by Xerxes. At the end of the fourth century, Alexander the Great planned to restore her, but he died before the work had progressed very far. From then on, the city just declined. There were still people living there in the first century of our Common Era, but today all that is left of ancient Babylon is a heap of ruins in Iraq. Even if her ruins should be partially restored, Babylon would be just a tourist showpiece, not a living, vibrant city. Her desolate site bears witness to the final fulfillment of the inspired prophecies against her.

*
Now I have to note that there was a project to rebuild Babylon a few years back but those plans were never finished. Babylon remains a lifeless waste even to this day! *

*The March of World Powers*

20 In the sixth century B.C.E., during the Jewish exile in Babylon, another prophet, Daniel, was inspired to record some remarkable visions foretelling the future course of world events. In one, Daniel describes a number of symbolic animals that displace one another on the world scene. An angel explains that these animals foreshadow the march of world powers from that time onward. Speaking of the final two beasts, he says: ?The ram that you saw possessing the two horns stands for the kings of Media and Persia. And the hairy he-goat stands for the king of Greece; and as for the great horn that was between its eyes, it stands for the first king. And that one having been broken, so that there were four that finally stood up instead of it, there are four kingdoms from his nation that will stand up, but not with his power.??Daniel 8:20-22.

21 This prophetic foreview was fulfilled exactly. The Babylonian Empire was overthrown by Medo-Persia, which, 200 years later, gave way to the Greek world power. The Greek Empire was spearheaded by Alexander the Great, ?the great horn.? However, after Alexander?s death, his generals fought among themselves for power, and eventually the far-flung empire broke into four smaller empires, ?four kingdoms.?

22 In Daniel chapter 7, a somewhat similar vision also looked far into the future. The Babylonian world power was pictured by a lion, the Persian by a bear, and the Greek by a leopard with four wings on its back and four heads. Then, Daniel sees another wild beast, ?fearsome and terrible and unusually strong . . . , and it had ten horns.? (Daniel 7:2-7) This fourth wild beast prefigured the powerful Roman Empire, which began to develop about three centuries after Daniel recorded this prophecy.

23 The angel prophesied regarding Rome: ?As for the fourth beast, there is a fourth kingdom that will come to be on the earth, that will be different from all the other kingdoms; and it will devour all the earth and will trample it down and crush it.? (Daniel 7:23) H. G. Wells, in his book A Pocket History of the World, says: ?This new Roman power which arose to dominate the western world in the second and first centuries B.C. was in several respects a different thing from any of the great empires that had hitherto prevailed in the civilised world.?7 It started as a republic and continued as a monarchy. Unlike previous empires, it was not the creation of any one conqueror but grew relentlessly over the centuries. It lasted much, much longer and controlled far more territory than any previous empire.

24 What, though, about the ten horns of this huge beast? The angel said: ?And as for the ten horns, out of that kingdom there are ten kings that will rise up; and still another one will rise up after them, and he himself will be different from the first ones, and three kings he will humiliate.? (Daniel 7:24) How did this work out?

25 Well, when the Roman Empire started to deteriorate in the fifth century C.E., it was not immediately replaced by another world power. Rather, it disintegrated into a number of kingdoms, ?ten kings.? Finally, the British Empire defeated the three rival empires of Spain, France, and the Netherlands to become the major world power. Thus did the newcomer ?horn? humiliate ?three kings.?

*Daniel?s Prophecies?After the Fact?*

26 The Bible indicates that the book of Daniel was written during the sixth century B.C.E. However, the fulfillments of its prophecies are so exact that critics claim it must have been written about 165 B.C.E., when a number of the prophecies had already been fulfilled.8 Despite the fact that the only real reason for making this claim is that Daniel?s prophecies were fulfilled, this late date for the writing of Daniel is presented as an established fact in many reference works.

27 Against such a theory, though, we must weigh the following facts. First, the book was alluded to in Jewish works produced during the second century B.C.E., such as the first book of Maccabees. Also, it was included in the Greek Septuagint version, the translation of which began in the third century B.C.E.9 Third, fragments of copies of Daniel were among the more frequently found works in the Dead Sea Scrolls?and these fragments are believed to date to about 100 B.C.E.10 Clearly, soon after Daniel was supposedly written, it was already widely known and respected: strong evidence that it was produced long before critics say it was.

28 Further, Daniel contains historical details that would have been unknown to a second-century writer. Outstanding is the case of Belshazzar, the ruler of Babylon who was killed when Babylon fell in 539 B.C.E. The major non-Biblical sources of our knowledge of the fall of Babylon are Herodotus (fifth century), Xenophon (fifth and fourth centuries), and Berossus (third century). None of these knew about Belshazzar.11 How unlikely that a second-century writer would have had information that had been unavailable to these earlier authors! The record concerning Belshazzar in Daniel chapter 5 is a strong argument that Daniel wrote his book before these other writers wrote theirs.

29 Finally, there are a number of prophecies in Daniel that were fulfilled long after 165 B.C.E. One of these was the prophecy about the Roman Empire, mentioned earlier. Another is a remarkable prophecy foretelling the arrival of Jesus, the Messiah.

*The Coming of the Anointed One*

30 This prophecy is recorded in Daniel, chapter 9, and reads as follows: ?Seventy weeks [of years, or four hundred and ninety years] are decreed upon your people and upon your holy city.? (Daniel 9:24, The Amplified Bible) What was to happen during these 490 years? We read: ?From the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem until [the coming of] the anointed one, a prince, shall be seven weeks [of years], and sixty-two weeks [of years].? (Daniel 9:25, AB) So this is a prophecy about the time of the coming of ?the anointed one,? the Messiah. How was it fulfilled?

31 The command to restore and to build Jerusalem ?went forth? in ?the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king? of Persia, that is, in 455 B.C.E. (Nehemiah 2:1-9) By the end of 49 years (7 weeks of years), much of Jerusalem?s glory had been restored. And then, counting the full 483 years (7 plus 62 weeks of years) from 455 B.C.E., we arrive at 29 C.E. This was, in fact, ?the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar,? the year when Jesus was baptized by John the Baptizer. (Luke 3:1) At that time, Jesus was publicly identified as God?s Son and began his ministry of preaching the good news to the Jewish nation. (Matthew 3:13-17; 4:23) He became the ?anointed one,? or Messiah.

32 The prophecy adds: ?And after the sixty-two weeks [of years] shall the anointed one be cut off.? It also says: ?And he shall enter into a strong and firm covenant with the many for one week [seven years]; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and offering to cease.? (Daniel 9:26, 27, AB) In harmony with this, Jesus went exclusively to ?the many,? the fleshly Jews. On occasion, he also preached to the Samaritans, who believed some of the Scriptures but had formed a sect separate from mainstream Judaism. Then, ?in the midst of the week,? after three and a half years of preaching, he gave up his life as a sacrifice and was thus ?cut off.? This spelled the end of the Mosaic Law with its sacrifices and gift offerings. (Galatians 3:13, 24, 25) Hence, by his death, Jesus caused ?the sacrifice and offering to cease.?

33 Nevertheless, for another three and a half years the newborn Christian congregation witnessed solely to Jews and, later, to the related Samaritans. In 36 C.E., however, at the end of the 70 weeks of years, the apostle Peter was guided to preach to a Gentile, Cornelius. (Acts 10:1-48) Now, the ?covenant with the many? was no longer limited to the Jews. Salvation was preached also to the uncircumcised Gentiles.

34 Because the Jewish nation rejected Jesus and conspired to have him executed, Jehovah did not protect them when the Romans came and destroyed Jerusalem in 70 C.E. Thus, Daniel?s further words were fulfilled: ?And the people of the other prince who shall come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and even to the end there shall be war.? (Daniel 9:26b, AB) This second ?prince? was Titus, the Roman general who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 C.E.

*Prophecy That Was Inspired*

35 In this way, Daniel?s prophecy of the 70 weeks was fulfilled in a remarkably exact manner. Indeed, many of the prophecies recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures were fulfilled during the first century, and a number of these had to do with Jesus. The place of Jesus? birth, his zeal for God?s house, his preaching activity, his betrayal for 30 pieces of silver, the manner of his death, the fact that lots were cast for his garments?all these details were prophesied in the Hebrew Scriptures. Their fulfillment proved without a doubt that Jesus was the Messiah, and it demonstrated again that the prophecies were inspired.?Micah 5:2; Luke 2:1-7; Zechariah 11:12; 12:10; Matthew 26:15; 27:35; Psalm 22:18; 34:20; John 19:33-37.

36 In fact, all the Bible?s prophecies that were due to be fulfilled have come true. Things have happened exactly in the way the Bible said they would. This is strong evidence that the Bible is God?s Word. There must have been more than human wisdom behind those prophetic utterances for them to have been so accurate.

37 But there are other predictions in the Bible that were not fulfilled in those times. Why? Because they were due to be fulfilled in our own day, and even in our future. The reliability of those ancient prophecies makes us confident that these other predictions will without fail come true. As we will see in the next chapter, this is indeed the case.

One of the prophecies that is now taking place around the world is the preaching of the good news of God's Kingdom.

Mt 24:9-14
9 ?Then people will deliver YOU up to tribulation and will kill YOU, and YOU will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name. 10 Then, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12 and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. 13 But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. 14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

God always gives people a warning before he takes action. 
It is not his desire for anyone to have to die.

Ezekiel 33:10,11
10 ?Now as regards you, O son of man, say to the house of Israel, ?Thus YOU people have said: ?Because our revolts and our sins are upon us and in them we are rotting away, how, then, shall we keep living??? 11 Say to them, ??As I am alive,? is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ?I take delight, not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living. Turn back, turn back from YOUR bad ways, for why is it that YOU should die, O house of Israel???

That is why he always gives a warning.
It is in writing that a warning will be given to the entire earth before God takes action against this world. That warning is sure to be given toward the entire earth as a Witness to the things that will soon take place. God does not desire for anyone to have to die and so he himself will make sure to it that the entire earth is warned first before the final war takes place.

Another prophecy that goes along with the preaching of the good news is the prophecy found at 
Isaiah 2:2-4

2 And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. 3 And many peoples will certainly go and say: ?Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.? For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. 4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.

There is a group of people now preaching to all the lands on earth about the good news of God's kingdom. These people do not learn war anymore. They do not fight in wars and they have "beaten their swords into plowshares". They are now saying to the entire world "Come, you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths."

Just to give you an idea of how vast this preaching work is, take a look at this webpage.

http://watchtower.org/languages.htm

This preaching work is already taking place around the world in every land night and day. Just another fulfillment of bible prophecy.

I could write a lot more and I would go into some of the historical data but the prophecies are actually historical themselves.

If you want to look anything up that I posed here then feel free to do so. You will only learn that everything here is totally accurate and not in dispute.

Science can not understand how it is possible to predict the future with such details and precision but that does not mean that these prophecies have not been fulfilled.

What seems amazing to our eyes is often a very simple issue for God. 
Just because we can not understand God's power does not mean that God does not exist or that he has no power. The evidence of God's power is all around us and there is no excuse that we could possibly give to him for turning our backs toward him!


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## Pablo

So if you interpret world events a certain way some of the bibles prophecies have come true, I do find this very interesting in a studious academic way, but how does this affect me and my life? why is it important? Like I have already said you cant just say that the whole of the bible is truth because some of it is.

I agree that science is limited in making sense of the world and there will always be an aspect of mystery to life but how do you get mystery = God , why not just admit that you dont know and understand the mystery, why say that it is all down to God. Yes the universe does exist and it is amazing and incredibe but what does that have to do with God? You seem to make a huge jump from the unknown/mystery of the world to God, why not just be honest and just say that it is mystery, why try to find a security blanket.

The question believers in God can never answer is that if you need a God to create the universe then who created God? the only answer is either that someone else did or that he created himself and if God can create himself then why cant the universe create itself? and if someone else created God then who created them? All any of us can honestly say is that we dont know, it is a mystery.

Also the story of the reincarnation of a messiah was a popular myth before the time of Christ, it was popular in many ancient traditions which suggests that it is a part of the collective unconscious and is an important psychological metaphor and shouldnt be taken literally.


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## LOSTONE

1Ti 1:17
Now to the King of eternity, incorruptible, invisible, [the] only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

God was not created and he did not just all of a sudden come into existence.

He is called the King of Eternity because he has never had a beginning and he will never have an end. He is the almighty, king of eternity in both directions.



> So if you interpret world events a certain way some of the bibles prophecies have come true


No it has nothing to do with interpretation at all.

The bible gives exact names, dates and locations of events with very clear details. And again, there have been many historians that have set out to prove the bible wrong yet nobody has ever been able to prove even one word of the bible to be false! In addition to not being able to prove the bible wrong, historians have backed the bible up and provided proof that the bible has been correct on every account. This has nothing to do with interpretation.

I do not see how any prophecy could be anymore clear then this one.

?This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ?Here I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring up against you many nations, just as the sea brings up its waves. And they will certainly bring the walls of Tyre to ruin and tear down her towers, and I will scrape her dust away from her and make her a shining, bare surface of a crag. . . . And your stones and your woodwork and your dust they will place in the very midst of the water.???Ezekiel 26:3, 4, 12.

The old city of Tyre was indeed tossed into the sea just as the bible predicted. If you read up the historical account you will find that it matches exactly what the bible says word for word.

There is also proof that many of the bible prophecies were indeed wrote long before the actual events took place.

The dead sea scrolls are just one example of some of the proof showing that these prophecies were in writing long before the events took place.



> Also the story of the reincarnation of a messiah was a popular myth before the time of Christ


I don't know that much about mythology but I do know that some of mythology does have some things in common with the bible. For example the myth's about a global flood are found all over the world in different cultures. This does not mean that the bible is wrong. And when it comes to the story about Jesus life, that story actually started in the first book of the bible and in the very first prophecy of the bible. "Genesis 3:15"

In the bible there are actually more prophecies about Jesus then anything else. The prophecies run all throughout the Hebrew scriptures and lead up to Matthew Mark Luke and John, so that by the time Jesus was born most of the Hebrews were already expecting him. They knew when he was going to be born and exactly where he was going to be born. There are many prophecies about Jesus life that Jesus could not have possibly influenced. These prophecies were put down in writing for our benefit.

The difference in Biblical accounts and Mythology is that the bible proves itself to be true. There are no prophecies anywhere on the earth anything like the ones we find in the bible. There is also not another message that is anything like what we have in the bible. When the bible is taken in as a whole and it's perfect track record is put together with it's perfect message then there is not any reason left to doubt God at all. The problem is that most people do not take the time to search things out. Many people are content with accepting death rather then putting forth any effort to search for life.

Here is a little info about Jesus.

*Fulfilled Prophecy Testifies that God Lives*

Many persons feel that a living God would have interfered long ago in human affairs to cut short this era of wickedness and woe. And now that some clergymen have put forth the idea that ?God is dead,? many wonder where they can find the truth about the matter. The truth can be found in the Holy Bible, and especially pertinent to this controversy of whether God lives is the testimony of fulfilled prophecy.

When prophecies of the Bible are seen being fulfilled, it is evidence that God lives. Humans cannot accurately foretell events and give precise details concerning them even a few years in advance, but God has done so centuries in advance. For example, centuries before the arrival of Jesus Christ on earth, God foretold in detail many things in connection with him.

*WHAT PROPHECIES CONCERNING JESUS TESTIFY*

Consider Jesus? birth. About seven hundred years in advance God inspired his prophet to foretell that it would take place in Bethlehem. (Mic. 5:2) And how remarkably this was fulfilled! It was, in fact, as a result of a royal decree of the Roman Caesar himself! The Jewish virgin Mary and her husband Joseph were living in Galilee, in Nazareth, some sixty or more miles north of Bethlehem, a long journey over rugged terrain in those days. However, Augustus Caesar?s registration decree required them to travel to Bethlehem to register?at just the right time for Jesus to be born there!?Luke 2:1-7.

Consider, also, the prophecies that were fulfilled at Jesus? death. In the inspired Psalms it was foretold that not one of his bones would be broken, and that those present would cast lots for his clothing. (Ps. 34:20; 22:18) Did this occur? Since the day following the execution was a holy one to the Jews and bodies were not to be left on the torture stake overnight, the Roman soldiers proceeded to break the legs of the men to hasten their death. But since Jesus had just died, his were left unbroken. (John 19:31-36) As for Jesus? inner garment, it was woven with no seam, so the soldiers decided to determine by lot whose it would be, rather than to tear it up and divide it. How miraculously these prophecies were fulfilled!?John 19:23, 24.

Prophecies regarding Jesus? time in the tomb and his resurrection likewise were astonishingly fulfilled. In the Psalms it was foretold that God would not leave his holy one in hell, or the grave. (Ps. 16:10, AV) And Jesus himself explained that he would ?be killed, and on the third day be raised up.? (Matt. 16:21) Was he? Yes, he was! Testified the apostle Peter: ?This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses.? The prophecies were fulfilled!?Acts 2:30-32.

Think now. Did all these many details just happen automatically simply because they were prophesied to occur? Was it merely by chance that Augustus Caesar made his registration decree at the exact time to maneuver Mary to Bethlehem when she was nearly ready to give birth? Was it just by accident that the soldiers proceeded to break the legs of the men after Jesus had died? Was it only by chance that Jesus? inner garment was of such a kind that the soldiers decided not to divide it into separate parts among themselves, as they had done his outer garments, but to cast lots over it? And how was it that Jesus? body was removed from the tomb on the third day without human intervention? It was accomplished by a living God! He intervened actively in human affairs to see that His prophecies were fulfilled!?Luke 24:1-7.

The fulfillment of those prophecies testified, not merely that God had lived in the past, but that he was alive then, at the time of their fulfillment.

*The Messiah Foretold*

14 Especially remarkable are the scores of Bible prophecies regarding Jesus Christ. Professor J. P. Free observed: ?The chances of all of these prophecies being fulfilled in one man are so overwhelmingly remote that it is strikingly demonstrated that they could in no wise be the shrewd guesses of mere men.?9

15 The fulfilling of many of these prophecies was completely beyond the control of Jesus. He could not, for instance, have arranged to be born of the tribe of Judah, or as a descendant of David. (Genesis 49:10; Isaiah 9:6, 7; 11:1, 10; Matthew 1:2-16) Nor could he have maneuvered the events that led to his being born in Bethlehem. (Micah 5:2; Luke 2:1-7) Nor would he have arranged to be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:15); that his enemies spit on him (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 26:67); that he be reviled while hanging from the executional stake (Psalm 22:7, 8; Matthew 27:39-43); that he be pierced, but not a bone in his body be broken (Zechariah 12:10; Psalm 34:20; John 19:33-37); and that soldiers cast lots for his garments (Psalm 22:18; Matthew 27:35). These are merely a few of the many prophecies fulfilled in the man Jesus.

There is really no comparing Jesus with any myth.

Jesus was a living human being that walked this earth.

A human being that fulfilled hundreds of prophecies during his life. 
Jesus also made many prophecies himself that have come true.

Myths can not predict the future with such great accuracy and detail that the bible accounts do. There has never been anyone or anything that has been able to match the bible's perfect track record for predicting events.

It is unwise to assume that suddenly the bible is going to prove to be wrong since it has proven itself to be the truth on thousands of accounts.

Again the bible does not teach that faith should be blind. 
If anyone wants to know the truth then the bible advises that you search for the truth. Don't just accept things at face value. Look into everything and find the truth for yourself.

Zephaniah 2:2,3
2 Before [the] statute gives birth to [anything], [before the] day has passed by just like chaff, before there comes upon YOU people the burning anger of Jehovah, before there comes upon YOU the day of Jehovah?s anger, 3 seek Jehovah, all YOU meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably YOU may be concealed in the day of Jehovah?s anger.


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## Guest

Lol

The human body is amazin but a from perfect:

Why do we have nipples? thats proof of evolution straiht up
Why do we share 99% DNA with moonkeys
why arent or eyes perfect evolved and got blind spots
Why is it that the world is proven to be billions of years old


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## Guest

LOSTONE... you're just not serious enough mate.... :roll: ... Bless ya. "Each to their own"...

Can you remember all this stuff you write? Must be interesting to recall so much information with ease... not something a dyslexic such as myself could do (Hides behind his excuse).


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## Hopefull




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## LOSTONE

> LOSTONE... you're just not serious enough mate.... Rolling Eyes ... Bless ya. "Each to their own"...


I hope you are being sarcastic..

There is nothing I take more seriously then the subject of the bible.


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## LOSTONE

> Can you remember all this stuff you write?


Yes but since I have messed my mind up, it takes me longer to put my thoughts together then it would for most people. The information is all in my head but it is very hard for me to organize my thoughts these days.



> Must be interesting to recall so much information with ease...


 Who said anything was easy?


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## Guest

dude ur just dodging my questions cause they prove evolution


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## CECIL

Emulated Puppet}eer said:


> Thank you *CECIL*? I feel some what like yourself, although you?re much more able then I am? although I can improve If I wish it so.


I'm no more able than you Darren and yes you can improve.



> Experience is ?understanding?? and understanding is having a non-religious faith in what you believe (if you?re not religious)? although? ?Believing is seeing?? Same could be said about ?brain washing? = ?Brain washing is seeing??


Well experience brings us closer to understanding, but we still won't understand everything. The reason I say "believing is seeing" is because your belief shapes your reality. If you believe you'll never amount to anything then you never will. But if you believe you can heal, then you will.



> Cotton can not be covered over my eyes? I?d analyse it before it had the chance?


Which is pretty much the core of DP right here. Having to analyse everything instead of just enjoying it. Analysing seperates us from the world, just enjoy the sensation of cotton on your face instead


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## Guest

Beliefs/Humans don shape reality at all

Only perspective


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## LOSTONE

> dude ur just dodging my questions cause they prove evolution


LOL :lol:

To be honest, I am not sure if you are joking or if you are serious.

There are actually millions of good "why" questions out there. If anyone wanted to raise doubts about the bible then I could probably do a better job then anyone. The "why" questions are never ending and they don't prove anything. They don't disprove anything either. Most of the "why" questions are a waste of time. I do my best to answer the important questions but I don't have time to go over all the millions of billions of "why" questions that people could come up with.

I am not dodging anything.

I simply don't have time to answer questions that don't need to be answered. If you want to know why God put nipples on men then why don't you ask him about it?

What I will do is show you some scriptures where Jehovah God himself answered Job because as the bible says at Job 32:1 "Job was righteous in his own eyes" And also because Job was basically saying that his righteousness was more then God's :Job 35:2

The answer that God gave to Job is directed toward anyone that would question God's wisdom.

Jehovah's answer is in chapter 38 of the book of Job.

1 And Jehovah proceeded to answer Job out of the windstorm and say:

2 ?Who is this that is obscuring counsel
By words without knowledge?

3 Gird up your loins, please, like an able-bodied man,
And let me question you, and you inform me.

4 Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth?
Tell [me], if you do know understanding.

5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
Or who stretched out upon it the measuring line?

6 Into what have its socket pedestals been sunk down,
Or who laid its cornerstone,

7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?

8 And [who] barricaded the sea with doors,
Which began to go forth as when it burst out from the womb;

9 When I put the cloud as its garment
And thick gloom as its swaddling band,

10 And I proceeded to break up my regulation upon it
And to set a bar and doors,

11 And I went on to say, ?This far you may come, and no farther;
And here your proud waves are limited??

12 Was it from your days onward that you commanded the morning?
Did you cause the dawn to know its place,

13 To take hold on the extremities of the earth,
That the wicked ones might be shaken out from it?

14 It transforms itself like clay under a seal,
And things take their station as in clothing.

15 And from the wicked ones their light is held back,
And the high arm itself gets broken.

16 Have you come to the sources of the sea,
Or in search of the watery deep have you walked about?

17 Have the gates of death been uncovered to you,
Or the gates of deep shadow can you see?

18 Have you intelligently considered the broad spaces of the earth?
Tell, if you have come to know it all.

19 Where, now, is the way to where light resides?
As for darkness, where, now, is its place,

20 That you should take it to its boundary
And that you should understand the roadways to its house?

21 Have you come to know because at that time you were being born,
And [because] in number your days are many?

22 Have you entered into the storehouses of the snow,
Or do you see even the storehouses of the hail,

23 Which I have kept back for the time of distress,
For the day of fight and war?

24 Where, now, is the way by which the light distributes itself,
[And] the east wind scatters about upon the earth?

25 Who has divided a channel for the flood
And a way for the thunderous storm cloud,

26 To make it rain upon the land where there is no man,
[Upon] the wilderness in which there is no earthling man,

27 To satisfy storm-stricken and desolate places
And to cause the growth of grass to sprout?

28 Does there exist a father for the rain,
Or who gave birth to the dewdrops?

29 Out of whose belly does the ice actually come forth,
And as for the hoarfrost of heaven, who indeed brings it to birth?

30 The very waters keep themselves hidden as by stone,
And the surface of the watery deep makes itself compact.

31 Can you tie fast the bonds of the Ki?mah constellation,
Or can you loosen the very cords of the Ke?sil constellation?

32 Can you bring forth the Maz?za?roth constellation in its appointed time?
And as for the Ash constellation alongside its sons, can you conduct them?

33 Have you come to know the statutes of the heavens,
Or could you put its authority in the earth?

34 Can you raise your voice even to the cloud,
So that a heaving mass of water itself may cover you?

35 Can you send forth lightnings that they may go
And say to you, ?Here we are!??

36 Who put wisdom in the cloud layers,
Or who gave understanding to the sky phenomenon?

37 Who can exactly number the clouds in wisdom,
Or the water jars of heaven?who can tip [them] over,

38 When the dust pours out as into a molten mass,
And the clods of earth themselves get stuck together?

39 Can you hunt prey for a lion itself
And can you satisfy the lively appetite of young lions,

40 When they crouch in the hiding places,
[Or] keep lying in the covert for an ambush?

41 Who prepares for the raven its food
When its own young ones cry to God for help,
[When] they keep wandering about because there is nothing to eat?

And Chapter 39

1 ?Have you come to know the appointed time for the mountain goats of the crag to give birth?
Do you observe just when the hinds bring forth with birth pangs?

2 Do you count the lunar months that they fulfill,
Or have you come to know the appointed time that they give birth?

3 They bow down when they cast forth their young ones,
[When] they get rid of their pangs.

4 Their sons become robust, they get big in the open field;
They actually go forth and do not return to them.

5 Who sent forth the zebra free,
And who loosened the very bands of the wild ass,

6 Whose house I have appointed the desert plain
And whose dwelling places the salt country?

7 It laughs at the turmoil of a town;
The noises of a stalker it does not hear.

8 It explores mountains for its pasturage
And after every sort of green plant it seeks.

9 Does a wild bull want to serve you,
Or will it spend the night by your manger?

10 Will you bind a wild bull fast with its ropes in the furrow,
Or will it harrow low plains after you?

11 Will you trust in it because its power is abundant,
And will you leave your toil to it?

12 Will you rely on it that it will bring back your seed
And that it will gather to your threshing floor?

13 Has the wing of the female ostrich flapped joyously,
Or [has she] the pinions of a stork and the plumage?

14 For she leaves her eggs to the earth itself
And in the dust she keeps them warm,

15 And she forgets that some foot may crush them
Or even a wild beast of the field may tread on them.

16 She does treat her sons roughly, as if not hers?
In vain is her toil [because she has] no dread.

17 For God has made her forget wisdom,
And he has not given her a share in understanding.

18 At the time she flaps [her wings] on high,
She laughs at the horse and at its rider.

19 Can you give to the horse mightiness?
Can you clothe its neck with a rustling mane?

20 Can you cause it to leap like a locust?
The dignity of its snorting is frightful.

21 It paws in the low plain and exults in power;
It goes forth to meet armor.

22 It laughs at dread, and is not terrified;
Nor does it turn back on account of a sword.

23 Against it a quiver rattles,
The blade of a spear and a javelin.

24 With pounding and excitement it swallows up the earth,
And it does not believe that it is the sound of a horn.

25 As soon as the horn blows it says Aha!
And from far off it smells the battle,
The uproar of chiefs and the war cry.

26 Is it owing to your understanding that the falcon soars up,
That it spreads its wings to the south wind?

27 Or is it at your order that an eagle flies upward
And that it builds its nest high up,

28 That on a crag it resides and stays during the night
Upon the tooth of a crag and an inaccessible place?

29 From there it has to search for food;
Far into the distance its eyes keep looking.

30 And its young ones themselves keep sipping up blood;
And where the slain are, there it is.?

*And chapter 40

1 And Jehovah proceeded to answer Job and say:

2 ?Should there be any contending of a faultfinder with the Almighty?
Let the reprover of God himself answer it.? *

Job's response toward God should be the same that we would all have.

Here is how Job responded.

Job 40:3-5
3 And Job went on to answer Jehovah and say:

4 ?Look! I have become of little account.
What shall I reply to you?
My hand I have put over my mouth.

5 Once have I spoken, and I will not answer;
And twice, and I will add nothing.?

Turn your back on God if you want to but I would personally advise against mocking him.

The theory of evolution is one of the biggest ways that God has ever been mocked. It is a great discredit toward him to say that all of his creation has came into existence by chance.

And asking pointless questions about nipples is another form of mocking God.

Jehovah God himself is asking you a question.

*?Should there be any contending of a faultfinder with the Almighty?
Let the reprover of God himself answer it.? *

If you truly want to know about God then the best thing to do would be to study the bible. All of the important questions about life are answered very clearly in the bible.

The bible is a book of peace, love, justice, power, wisdom and *truth*. 
Anyone teaching otherwise is only teaching lies and obscuring wisdom.


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## Guest

haha

its cool every man deserve to chose for himself his own faith

elievin earh is 6k year old tho a little nonesense:

So all gays lesbians nonn virgins people workin on sabbath disobedient teenagers mus die?

U cant take selective POVs to this shit. so u are a sick sick man

and peace, love, justice, power, wisdom and truth.

Peace? Christians has killed more than ANYONE in history
Love? Create homosexuals/lesbians just to kill WTF
Justice? dont even get me started would it be justice that some atheist donatin billions to the poor but refuse to believe in God is to be tortuerd in hell for all eternity?
Power? yea yeah ur God seems powersiick ego
Wisdom when was wisdom exchanged for delusional
Truth LOOOOOOOOOOOOL why did he give us brains o figure out truth (science) to prove his son wrong?

Im not mocking god and why would u advice against it if he exised he woud punish me?


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## LOSTONE

> earh is 6k year old tho a little nonesense:


That is a false teaching that does not originate with the bible.

The bible does give us a very clear genealogy for the human race but it does not provide us with the age of the earth or the age of the universe.



> So all gays lesbians nonn virgins people workin on sabbath disobedient teenagers mus die?


This is not a bible teaching either. The sabbath is not relevant anymore because Jesus memorial has replaced the Sabbath. 
Luke 22:19
Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: ?This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.?

And there is no way that I could possibly judge anyone. 
Even God almighty has not judged this world yet so where would I get off judging anyone.

God has a day for Judgment and it has not come yet.

That day is actually called "Judgment day" in the bible.
Mt 10:14,15
14 Wherever anyone does not take YOU in or listen to YOUR words, on going out of that house or that city shake the dust off YOUR feet. 15 Truly I say to YOU, It will be more endurable for the land of Sod?om and Go?mor?rah on Judgment Day than for that city.

The bible does give us a warning though of what types of actions are going to be judged against.

Such as the warning in 
Romans 1:24-32
24 Therefore God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, that their bodies might be dishonored among them, 25 even those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the One who created, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; 27 and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error.

28 And just as they did not approve of holding God in accurate knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting, 29 filled as they were with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, badness, being full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malicious disposition, being whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, insolent, haughty, self-assuming, inventors of injurious things, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, false to agreements, having no natural affection, merciless. 32 Although these know full well the righteous decree of God, that those practicing such things are deserving of death, they not only keep on doing them but also consent with those practicing them.

1 Co 6:9-11
9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God?s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God?s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.

Notice in verse 11 it says "And yet that is what some of YOU were".
God is not going to judge anyone without first giving a warning!

Jehovah God himself has told us that he does not take delight in the death of the wicked! It is his desire and his delight for the wicked to turn back to him and keep on living. The teaching that God is evil is not a teaching of the bible.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ??As I am alive,? is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ?I take delight, not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living. Turn back, turn back from YOUR bad ways, for why is it that YOU should die, O house of Israel???



> so u are a sick sick man


I am not sure exactly why you said that. :?

What is evil about bringing people news of peace and everlasting life?
Death is the teaching of the world. 
It is the world that is sick. 
Life is the benefit of taking in knowledge of the bible, so what is sick about that?

Life is a very good thing.

It is very sad to me that anyone would call me sick for offering life rather then death.

I will say again that God has not judged anyone yet.
He is simply offering life toward everyone and warning us that we are running out of time. Eventually his day of Judgment will be here and then it will be to late for many people. God is not going to put up with this world forever. When his time comes then there will be no arguing the point with him. Either you will be on his side and you will live or you will be against him and you will die. It is not his desire to put anyone to death. He did not create us just so that he could destroy us. God is offering us everlasting life on a paradise earth. What is it about that offer that you or anyone would not like?

What makes me "sick" for wanting other people to be able to enjoy everlasting life on a paradise earth?

I really do not see what is sick about that.

I can see a great deal of sickness in this world though. It is a sickness that often makes me wish I were not here at all. The only reason I am willing and able to put up with the sickness of this world is because of the hope for the future that I know I am able to put my trust into. The hope for a peaceful and loving world that is ruled over by a peaceful and loving God.


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## Guest

but what if u are wrong and live in fear and die and become nuthn but ashes wasted ur life on faith

what will happen to this guy: http://youtube.com/watch?v=YA9sFkYZSk8& ... ed&search=


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## Pablo

The main result of the bible on our society is that everybody is emotionally repressed. The whole Christian culture is the most repressed culture in the world and psychological repression is the main cause of neurosis and mental distress.

Thankfully here in England people are far less Christian than they used to be so they are throwing away all the guilt and emotional/sexual repression which was given to our society by Christianity, but I still feel bitter about they way Christianity has warped our emotional lives because I see the way my mother and grandmother were brought up with such guilt and inferiority because they were women in a Christian culture and that pisses me off and affects all of us because if our mothers arent happy and complete it affects the way we are raised and means that we are far more likely to be neurotic and emotionally sick ourselves.

We are still suffering because of the repression given to us by Christianity even though we arent Christian because it has been ingrained in our culture and that is probably the opposite of what Jesus wanted to achieve.


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## LOSTONE

> We are still suffering because of the repression given to us by Christianity even though we arent Christian because it has been ingrained in our culture and that is probably the opposite of what Jesus wanted to achieve.


That is true. Repression is not something Jesus was teaching and it was not something that he is happy about at all. He came to this earth in order to give up his life for sinners, not so that he could turn around and make them feel guilty but so that they would have a chance to gain back everlasting life.

Much of Christianity has not been actually following the bible. Actually most of Christianity has been doing things and teaching things that are in direct conflict with the bible. It is not the result of the bible that people have become emotionally repressed. This is due to the false teachings and abuse of power that has taken place throughout much of Christianity.

Jesus himself spoke about false prophets and about false Christs that would come after him.

Mt 24:23-27
23 ?Then if anyone says to YOU, ?Look! Here is the Christ,? or, ?There!? do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned YOU. 26 Therefore, if people say to YOU, ?Look! He is in the wilderness,? do not go out; ?Look! He is in the inner chambers,? do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

Paul also spoke about these people.

2 Co 11:13-15
13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works.

Just because men have done bad things does not mean that the teaching of the bible is wrong or bad. The teaching of the bible has been twisted and used for evil. The bible does tell us though that before the time of Judgment there will be people that will be teaching the truth about the bible throughout the entire earth.

Mt 24:14 
And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

Isaiah 2:2-4
2 And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. 3 And many peoples will certainly go and say: ?Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.? For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. 4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.

Both of these prophecies are being fulfilled right now as we speak.

It is sad that so much bad has been done in the name of Christianity but we can not blame the bible or God for this badness.

God has a reason for everything that he does. The bible was wrote for our time. It was wrote for the time of Judgment. Anyone living during a time when it would not have been possible to learn the truth about God may be given another chance to get to know the truth. The people that will be judged during Judgment day will get no second chances though. This is why the good news of God's Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations before the end comes.

Yes a great deal of badness has been done in the name of Christianity but God's message of peace is being given now to the entire world along with a warning. Repent and keep living.

Repression is not the objective of God's message. Everlasting life is the objective of God's message. Everlasting life for anyone heeding the warnings and accepting the invitation to enjoy everlasting life on a paradise earth.


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## LOSTONE

> but what if u are wrong


Personally I know that I am not wrong.

But if I was, it would make no difference anyway.

If there was no God then there would be no humanity.

Nothing would matter anyway.

Just take a look around you and think about where our civilization is heading.

If God does not save us then we will not be here for much longer anyway.

None of us will be here.

Science says that our star the Sun will eventually explode and the universe will eventually expand into nothingness. So there is no point in caring about the "what if your wrong" question because if I am wrong then it would not even matter that I am wrong.

But I am not wrong.


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## Guest

From my own experience; god has forsaken us.


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## LOSTONE

> From my own experience; god has forsaken us.


In a way that is actually a true statement.

But he has not forsaken us totally.

And he never forsakes his own people.

Anyone that is loyal toward him will never be forsaken.

This world as a whole has been forsaken in a way because we have have forsaken God.

God has provided us with a way to reach him though.

Even though we have forsaken him, he has provided us with the sacrifice for our sins. It is just up to us to accept that sacrifice.


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## LOSTONE

Emulated Puppet}eer

I assure you, God's anger will blaze against this world.

It is not pleasing to God at all for him to have to watch and see what is taking place here.


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## Guest

yeah but honesly who gives a fuck if he sun explodes in 3billion years or the universe gets fucked in 7bill years(which is just speculation either way) DOES THAT MATTER NOW?

Think eternity in heaen worshippin God is more fun? WHy not jus live atheist style til ur old then accept JEsus INCASE?

If he exist and ot all HIS POWERS WHY THE FUCK dont he just tae a second to fix it all? it would take hi a second u know if he created it all in 6days


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## Pablo

LOSTONE said:


> Emulated Puppet}eer
> 
> I assure you, God's anger will blaze against this world.
> 
> It is not pleasing to God at all for him to have to watch and see what is taking place here.


So do you believe in a wrathful God who is going to punish those who sin with a blaze of anger?

It is exactly that belief which causes guilt and repression.


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## Guest

haha yeah wtf

the paranoia "GOD HEARS EVERY OF UR THOUGHTS" "SEX IS BAD" wtf every horny puberty teenager going through anxiety and guilt because their parents thought them some shit written to control people 2k years ago should be called CHILD ABUSEE

The Ethics of Hell:


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## Guest

Those who have forsaken him (non-believers aka sinners) did not have any means connectively with him. If you can not connect with an object/god in the sense of it not being able to effect any one of your five (six) senses? then you?re a fool to believe in such nonsense? although assume you have been ?touched? by the hand of god, or by some other means?

If you?ve been touched? well what else is there but to believe you?ve been ?chosen?? you might come to believe you?ve become insane? but that?s down to the type of person you are? Every being seeks greater power? and what is more powerful then religion?

Thanks.


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## Guest

Pablo said:


> LOSTONE said:
> 
> 
> 
> Emulated Puppet}eer
> I assure you, God's anger will blaze against this world.
> 
> 
> 
> So do you believe in a wrathful God who is going to punish those who sin with a blaze of anger?
Click to expand...

I assumed he was saying the sun will supernova in time... although that's down to science/time (Chemical burn out).


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## Guest

Nah they had no clue about supernovas super novas back then another problem wth the bible


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## LOSTONE

First of all, serving God is a lifestyle and not just a prayer.

Serving God and accepting Jesus gift involves obeying Jehovah. 
Waiting until the last moment to obey Jehovah is not the best way to show appreciation for the gift that has been given toward us.



> If he exist and ot all HIS POWERS WHY THE flower* dont he just tae a second to fix it all? it would take hi a second u know if he created it all in 6days


Jehovah God is not the ruler of this world.

That is why he is not going to be fixing anything here. If God were to "fix" our problems on this earth right now then he would be aiding criminals.

What God has done is that he has provided us with a way to clean ourselves from our sin and eventually reach a state of perfection once again. God is not being slow about bringing change to this world. He is being patient. Jehovah could have killed Adam and Eve right after they sinned but this would have resulted in the end of the human race.

2 Pe 3:9-12
9 Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. 10 Yet Jehovah?s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered.

11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought YOU to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, 12 awaiting and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah, through which [the] heavens being on fire will be dissolved and [the] elements being intensely hot will melt!

Yes Jehovah God will solve all of mankind's problems in one single and swift war. That will be the war to end all wars and the war to end all challenges toward Jehovah's right to rule for all eternity. Jehovah will never again allow anyone to challenge his sovereignty.

As the bible says, Jehovah is being patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.

That is why the great day of God almighty has not come yet. God does not need human advisers. He well knows the best time to take action and that time has been firmly set since the beginning of this rebellion against him.

If there is anyone you want to be angry against then you should direct your anger toward the ruler of this world because he is the one responsible for what is going on here.

God's Kingdom is no part of this world, and his people are no part of this world.

John 18:36
Jesus answered: ?My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.?

John 17:14-19
14 I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.

15 ?I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth. 18 Just as you sent me forth into the world, I also sent them forth into the world. 19 And I am sanctifying myself in their behalf, that they also may be sanctified by means of truth.

God will fix all the problems of this world but he has his own time for doing that. No human is in a decent position to be advising God about things.


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## LOSTONE

> Nah they had no clue about supernovas super novas back then another problem wth the bible


Do you not understand that the creator of the universe has the power to protect the earth from disaster?

Super novas are not a problem with the bible.

They are simply a demonstration of the power of some of God's creations.

I am sure God knows very well how to keep the sun burning bright for us if that is his desire.


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## Guest

wait ur a Jehovas Witness?

Theye said the world was going under 322332 times never happend and eachtime they need money FOR WHAT?

dewd not even post ore quotations I cant read more it poison my sanity


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## LOSTONE

> So do you believe in a wrathful God who is going to punish those who sin with a blaze of anger?


God's wrath and anger is directed toward those that are causing the evil that everyone is so happy to blame God for.

There is nothing wrong with God being angry about the injustice being done here.



> "SEX IS BAD"


Sex is not bad but I don't think it is hard to understand why fornication is a sin.



> wait ur a Jehovas Witness?


No actually I am not.

I do believe that they are God's people though.



> Theye said the world was going under 322332 times never happend and eachtime they need money FOR WHAT?


I am not sure what you are talking about. 
They have never taken collections and never will. 
Every Witness is a volunteer, nobody gets paid for anything. 
And they have never said that the world was going under 322332 times. I am not even sure what that is supposed to mean.

This is the official stance of the Jehovah's Witnesses concerning the end of this system of things.

Mt 24:36,37
36 ?Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

Some individual Jehovah's Witnesses in the past have thought of dates of when the end of this system may be coming but the official stance of the Watchtower Society is exactly what is wrote in the bible at Mt 24:36,37

What really matters is that Jehovah's Witnesses are obeying the bible and preaching the good news of God's Kingdom. They are doing exactly what the bible says they should be doing.


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## Pablo

Forced guilt about something which is perfectly natural and healthy like sex or anger is child abuse. The whole purpose of our religions is to make us more loving, more balanced and happy and overall more conscious but it is perfectly clear to me that the main religions of Christianity, Islam and Judaism do the exact opposite of this. These religions have dramatically failed in just about every way possible, all they do is spread darkness. Just look at the amount of paedophile priests there are, they do dark things like abuse because the bible created so much guilt that they repressed their perfectly natural sexual feelings so much that their sexual feelings were buried in the darkness of their unconscious where they became dangerous.

When Jesus talked about light and darkness he wasnt talking about something out in the world he was talking about consciousness and unconsciousness. If your feelings and drives are repressed into your unconscious then they are in the darkness, they still exist but you no longer have any power over them so they are dangerous. The large proportion of evil in the world isnt created by some devil looking down causing trouble it is created purely because of repression of thoughts/feelings/drives into the darkness of your unconscious mind where you lose control of them. So if you want to find the kingdom of heaven you have to look within and bring light to the darkness ie bring consciousness to your unconscious, forget looking to the heavens for your answers look within yourself.


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## Pablo

LOSTONE said:


> What really matters is that Jehovah's Witnesses are obeying the bible and preaching the good news of God's Kingdom. They are doing exactly what the bible says they should be doing.


Jesus did not write the bible, Buddha did not write the Dhammapada, Muhammad did not write the Koran, why did they not write it themselves....... because the words spoken by these teachers were meant for the people they were spoken to and not necessarily for anybody else. Each person in life needs individual guidance and lessons and if we are lucky we will find a living teacher who can give it to us, but if you start applying other peoples guidance to your own life then you will suffer for sure, especially if the guidance is thousands of years old. Just look at the Muslims who want Sharia law, perhaps thousands of years ago it was the best thing to apply but clearly now it is barbaric and not applicable to modern life, and similarly many of the rules and regulations in the bible were applicable then but not now.

The prophets did not write down their teachings themselves because they are not neccessaily applicable for us and didnt want us to suffer by following another persons rules or another generations teachings. I think if Jesus was alive today he would probably say something completely contradictory from the bible like go out and get laid.


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## suz

Pablo said:


> I think if Jesus was alive today he would probably say something completely contradictory from the bible like go out and get laid.


That'd be kinda groovy 8)


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## LOSTONE

> The whole purpose of our religions is to make us more loving, more balanced and happy and overall more conscious but it is perfectly clear to me that the main religions of Christianity, Islam and Judaism do the exact opposite of this.


I agree totally with what you said there.

The worst thing to my eyes is the wars that these different religions have been involved in. There are way to many for me to list but the hypocrisy of it all is very self evident.

Catholics killing Catholics, Muslims killing Muslims and Jews killing Jews.

These different religions have spread throughout most of the nations of the world. Each time there is a war on this earth we are Witnesses to Catholics killing fellow Catholics, Muslims killing fellow Muslims and Jews killing fellow Jews.

It is understandable why this would make religion as a whole look bad.

The bible teaches peace though. 
Micah 4:3
And he will certainly render judgment among many peoples, and set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.

So the bad things that are going on in the world are not a reflection of bible teachings. They are simply a reflection of the false teachings of men.

2Pe 3:14-17
14 Hence, beloved ones, since YOU are awaiting these things, do YOUR utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace. 15 Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote YOU, 16 speaking about these things as he does also in all [his] letters. In them, however, are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unsteady are twisting, as [they do] also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17 YOU, therefore, beloved ones, having this advance knowledge, be on YOUR guard that YOU may not be led away with them by the error of the law-defying people and fall from YOUR own steadfastness.

It is clear here that the teaching of the bible is a teaching of peace. As it says in verse 16 above, there are people that are twisting what the scriptures actually say.

Pablo there is nothing that makes me more sick then to see people twisting what the bible says and using it for an evil purpose. 
Not everyone is doing this though. 
Some people are teaching the truth about the bible.
And that is a message of love and peace.


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## Rozanne

suz said:


> Pablo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think if Jesus was alive today he would probably say something completely contradictory from the bible like go out and get laid.
> 
> 
> 
> That'd be kinda groovy 8)
Click to expand...

I have a friend who is always talking about Jesus in the most down to earth way it really is groovy. Up until now he never seemed like a real person. It's weird because it makes the religion more accessible. Anyhow. I just wanted to say that it's really good to have you back on the board Lostone and I find what you write really interesting but the posts are hu-ow-ge and I find them difficult to take in because of that. If you shortened the length so we could debate specific points, that would be nice.

Welcome back.


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## LOSTONE

> If you shortened the length so we could debate specific points, that would be nice.


Sorry for the long posts Angel_Ariel I just don't want there to be any confusion, so I do my best to put in all the information I can, that way I should not have to keep repeating myself.

If anyone is really interested in knowing anything specific about my beliefs and wants to learn more about the bible then I am willing to spend all the time needed in order to help anyone understand what the bible says. (I would prefer doing that vie email though) Forums can get messy sometimes.

I am not baptized and so if anyone really wants to know the official beliefs of the Jehovah's Witnesses then I would advise calling them up and talking to them about the bible and their beliefs.

I can only pass on what I have learned so far. Eventually it is my plan to get baptized but for right now I am not actually a Witness myself. 
I am simply a man that is trying to share what I know about the bible. I have not dedicated myself to God yet because that is a very big step to take in life. I am willing to help anyone wanting to know more about the bible though.

It is hard for me to keep my posts short and simple on here because some of the people on here might not actually care to learn anything but only be looking for a way to prove me wrong about some specific issue. I want to provide enough information so that people will understand that my beliefs are built upon a great deal of knowledge about the subject of religion. That way even the people that do not agree with me can see for themselves that I have spent a great deal of time looking into matters for myself. And this way people can see that my beliefs are based upon knowledge and not just feelings.

Angel_Ariel thanks for the welcome back.

I have been gone for a long time because dpselfhelp can get a little out of hand sometimes and it actually makes me feel worse being here sometimes. I have also been very busy working 12 hours a day and studying at night. I just moved back into IL from Hawaii and I am out of a job so I have some free time on my hands to visit dpselfhelp for awhile.


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## Guest

from Hawaii... why would you come back from Hawaii? Lack of funding?

Did you enjoy yourself there? =)


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## LOSTONE

> from Hawaii... why would you come back from Hawaii? Lack of funding?
> 
> Did you enjoy yourself there? =)


Yes I was very happy to be able to live in Hawaii. It is one of the most beautiful places on earth. The people there are also mostly very nice and laid back, although there is some racism toward mainlanders there that got on my nerves sometimes.

I moved back into IL because Hawaii is a very expensive place to live. You can make good money working there but unless your making millions then you will probably be spending all of your money just to survive there. Rent on Oahu is about 4 times more expensive then the rent of places in Chicago, and I don't even want to talk about how expensive the food is out there.

My family all lives in IL also and I feel pretty alone being out in Hawaii because DP/DR makes it almost impossible for me make good friends.

My hope is that someday if I ever live in paradise then I will move back out there and build a house by Waikiki beach somewhere.


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## Guest

-Mark:3:29

Whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit can never be forgiven.

Nw isnt this holy bullshit I mean wtf what about all christians with Religious OCD who CONSTANTLY got uncontrollable blasphemy thoughts towards god will they go to hell?

ur god isnt really nice


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## LOSTONE

MentallyIll that scripture is aimed toward people that are willingly going against God.

If you say something bad or do something bad then the bible makes it very clear that you may be forgiven.

Jesus ransom is not going to be applied toward people that are willingly fighting against God though. 
It would not be Righteous for God to do such a thing.

I myself have thought many bad things about God before and I have had many twisted thoughts in my head for a long time thinking that maybe God is evil. I have said things directly toward God that I regret very much. I realize now though that it is not God's desire at all to have to kill anyone. And I now realize that God is holy and perfect and I understand now what that means.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ??As I am alive,? is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ?I take delight, not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living. Turn back, turn back from YOUR bad ways, for why is it that YOU should die, O house of Israel???

If you ever study the bible then you will find that Jehovah God is always ready to forgive.

God has went so far as to provide his only begotten son as a ransom to pay the price for our own error. God has not provided us with this gift just so that he could turn around and destroy all of us. He wants all of us to turn back to him. "Ezekiel 33:11 "

Mark 3:29 is to be applied toward anyone that is willingly working against God's will and not repenting and turning back to God. 
That is what blasphemy against the holy spirit means, working against God's will and not repenting when you have the chance.

We can not say for sure who God will judge with forgiveness and who he will judge with death.

It is also pointless to think that we may somehow be able to be better judges then God is. The bible makes it clear that God is extremely forgiving. Mark 3:29 is in the bible as a warning for anyone that is working against the will of Jehovah God.

No man now living on this earth has been judged yet. 
There will be a time for judgment but that day has not yet come.

Ec 3:1
For everything there is an appointed time, even a time for every affair under the heavens:

I could give you many examples of God's forgiveness if you want me to. 
There are hundreds of biblical accounts and I have seen first hand with my own eyes that God is very willing to forgive people of their sins.


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## Guest

*LOSTONE*: It does sound as if you totally enjoyed yourself at Hawaii? and now you brought up the cost of living there, it?s common sense why you can only live there for limited periods of time. I?m sorry you witness racism towards the mainlanders, do you mind if I asked what kind it was? No race is ?better? then another? we?re all human with different views and believe? that is all.

So basically you jumped in at the ?deep end? and went to Hawaii on your own? ?talk about guts?? You?ve impressed me =). Well having a hope/dream is a ?meaning? of life? I?m glad you have one mate.

How long were you at Hawaii for?


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## Guest

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_OEl1FCdR9A& ... ed&search=


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## LOSTONE

> The God Delusion excerpt


lol

MentallyIll From the very start of that video I just can not take it seriously.

For me, saying that God is a delusion is like saying that reality is a delusion. I am personally more sure that God exist then I am about the fact that I exist.

I have thought about the concept that I may be living in some sort of matrix or something and everything that I think is reality is actually not reality but just a lie that is being forced onto my mind.

Yes I have had the same types of DP/DR thoughts that everyone else around here has had to deal with.

But since my mind is given the information of this world that is around me, all I can do is place my faith in the only goodness that I can find.

To my eyes there is obviously some very powerful and intelligent being out there somewhere that has set things in motion. It is not obvious to me because I feel *"the power of God"* or *"praise Jesus"* or anything like that, it is just obvious to me because I can see with my own eyes a very complex and organized universe and a complex earth with amazing creatures walking all over it. All of this may be just my imagination, maybe I am just dreaming up all of the reality around myself but I find that unlikely. The bible in my eyes is faultless and provides a perfect explanation for the reality that I witness each and every day. The bible also teaches me how to be a good person and it teaches me how to have love for people that spit in my face.

I don't think I personally will ever find anything better then the bible. So the bible is where I am putting my faith.

God may be a delusion to some people but not for me. My God Jehovah is very real and his power has been made very evident to me so that I can not ignore him. No matter what I am doing, sinning or walking on water. Jehovah God is more of a reality to me then anything else.


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## LOSTONE

> LOSTONE: It does sound as if you totally enjoyed yourself at Hawaii? and now you brought up the cost of living there, it?s common sense why you can only live there for limited periods of time. I?m sorry you witness racism towards the mainlanders, do you mind if I asked what kind it was? No race is ?better? then another? we?re all human with different views and believe? that is all.
> 
> So basically you jumped in at the ?deep end? and went to Hawaii on your own? ?talk about guts?? You?ve impressed me =). Well having a hope/dream is a ?meaning? of life? I?m glad you have one mate.
> 
> How long were you at Hawaii for?


Yes I had a lot of good experiences in Hawaii. I have had very bad experiences also but I value both the bad and good. Hawaii is a special place. 
I spent about 3 years out there total but I have been out there two different times. Now I feel like I am not sure where my home is, Hawaii or IL. LOL.

The racism out in Hawaii is actually a pretty big deal in some places. It is a major turn off toward any Caucasian from the mainland who moves out there. If you are just visiting then you probably won't notice much racism but if you move there then you will notice racism almost all over the place. They even have a day called "Kill Haole day" http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1311090
On April 1st if any Caucasians kids attend school then they will likely get beat up pretty bad for it, and this is America mind you.

Haole is the racial slur that is used by many people out there. The word means "foreigner" in Hawaiian but it is most often used as a simple racial slur.

The Polynesians and also Micronesians do have a lot of reasons for having bad feelings toward "America" but I personally do not understand Racism in any form. It just does not make sense to me.


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## Guest

"All of this may be just my imagination, maybe I am just dreaming up all of the reality around myself but I find that unlikely"

Yes thats true, if u face reality however then u et the CERTAIN "consciousness comes from the brain not God " and then any animal or human witha brain MUST be as real.

Why dont u dare watchin it, its not lie hes goin around screamin "GOD SUCKS GOD SUCKS" he was a catholic grew up and became a scientist and speciality is evolution so he disproved God quit delusion and try to help other brainwashed people.

If u dont manage to watch it, ur faith is not real, its wishful thinking u NEED to hold on to cause uve become weak. Deep down u know there is no God so everytime someone gives u proof u freak out and feel life is pointless so u reread the same bullshit in the bible to mess up ur thinkin pattern further..all u got is a 2k year old book written by smart people to control humanity.
Any decent huan bein with IQ over 75 knows this and it pisses me off when a peson can write 25555555555555555 excrepts fro a bullshit book fairlytale but when someone tries to argue back with evidence u start shittin ur pants incase the invisibe man in ur head is goin to torture u for it

When u accept someone spittin in ur fae u have sold ur soul pride and worth


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## LOSTONE

MentallyIll I am not going to waste my time watching that video because I have already spent years of my life looking into the subject of religion.

I have looked into the teaching of evolution and many different religious teachings as well.

My IQ is far higher then 75 and there is nothing I take more seriously then religion.

As I said before, the truth about God does not really have that much to do with IQ anyway. It has more to do with your heart condition then it has to do with how high you score on an IQ test.

Since I have already spent a great deal of time looking into things, I will not waste anymore of my time continuing to fill my mind with what I know are lies.

My time is better spent filling my mind with what I know to be the truth. And to fill my mind with positive things rather then filling my mind with what I consider to be garbage.



> When u accept someone spittin in ur fae u have sold ur soul pride and worth


That is not exactly what I said. I can not find the exact quote but I remember saying something about being able to feel love toward someone that is spitting in my face. I have not sold out my soul, pride or worth. That would involve me trading in my beliefs just simply because others are spitting on me or disgracing me for what I believe in. 
Standing firm for your beliefs in the face of massive opposition is not selling out. That is the exact opposite of selling out. It takes a great deal of strength to accept someone spitting in your face and not allowing yourself to lose control because of that. It is the weak people that lose control of themselves and act rashly when faced with opposition.

If I can see some way to avoid being spit on then I will avoid it. But I am doing my best to build up my strength so that I am able to deal with being spit on or even killed, if that is what must happen.

I will not back down from my beliefs simply because someone is spitting on me. And I also will not let myself feel hatred toward the person that is spitting on me. Hatred is not the message of the bible. The message of the bible is a message of Love and peace.

I personally have a very rotten background and it has been very hard for me to apply bible principles into my life, but I will not give up the fight because I know that there is nothing better on this earth then what is wrote down in the bible.


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