# losing my mind-klonopin withdrawal



## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

I haven't taken a Klonopin in five days, which is the longest I've gone without it in two years. I am miserable and DPed as hell. Help.


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

The only way out is thru...


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2004)

posts like this make me afraid to get off Klonopin


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## Blake (Aug 10, 2004)

hey ,

ive been on klonopin for two years and longest i went without it was 5 days (once) and recently, i went about 8 days... and sadly the only answer is either a-get some more klonopin or b-get some more klonopin then VERY GRADUALLY taper off of it.

i cant remember the website, but someone posted it regarding benzo withdrawals and i didnt realize until then how f-ing powerful benzos were on your body and how ridiculous the withdrawal effects were. a prominent doctor was advising a twelve-week tapering off period WITH the addition of valium to counter the effects of klono-withdrawal... 
After the 8 days, (cold turkey, I ran out of money and no insurance...)
I WENT TOTALLY INSANE. And I don't mean in the way dp makes you FEEL insane, though you KNOW you are not. I WENT F-ING CRAZY. Sweating, muscle spasms, stomach pain, my mind felt like it was on fire, the f-ing crazies. It followed all the symptoms of what people have explained what heroin withdrawal was like.

Not good news or advice, I know. I dont know why you stopped taking it, if your doctor advised it then I guess tough it out...but if it was your own decision, kudos...but cold turkey is seriously not the way to get off klonopin. 
keep trucking,
blake


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2004)

What dose did you jump from gimpy? Klonopin is the hardest benzo to taper from for some reason. Its just so damn potent. I tried jumping from the lowest of klonopin dosages and barely made it a week before reinstating. All's you can do is duke it out and see if you can endure the pain or reinstate and use a better and safer method to get off the drugs. Sounds to me like you fast tapered or cold turkeyed. Thats a very dangerous route to go, ask dakotajoe.

Neal


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Gimpy,

If I were you and I was off and still maintained my sanity, Id stick it out. In time, your gaba will readjust and you will feel better.

Joe


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## 1A (Aug 12, 2004)

gimpy34 said:


> I haven't taken a Klonopin in five days, which is the longest I've gone without it in two years. I am miserable and DPed as hell. Help.


What you need to do, if you wish to withdraw completely, is switch to a benzo with a much, much, much longer half-life. The half-life of the most "popular" benzo's, i.e., ativan, klonopoin, xanax, etc. is usually less than 50 hours. The half-time of VALIUM, also a benzo, is close to ONE WEEK!

Therefore, Valium is eliminated very, very slowly, which makes withdrawal much easier.

The undisputed expert on getting off benzo's in the most painless way possible is Dr. Heather Ashton.

Even though this link below contains A TON of information it is incredibly INVALUABLE to anyone wishing to withdraw from benzo's.

NOTE: Even though she indicates that the FAQ was not written by a Doctor, I remember specifically this same FAQ appearing in a Hard Copy manual I ordered from her web site years ago. And everything in that manual was written by her, A DOCTOR!

This info was not free until recently. I'm so glad it's free now...

BENZODIAZEPINE DEPENDENCY AND WITHDRAWAL
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) file

Visit this below as well...

BENZODIAZEPINES: HOW THEY WORK
AND HOW TO WITHDRAW

Be Seeing You,

Jeff


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

The top link wasnt written by a doctor but contains valuable info. Your bottom link is the Ashton Manual. That was written by a very brilliant doctor and scientist who spent a lifetime researching these drugs.

Joe


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Heather Ashton
Newcastle upon Tyne
August 2002

ABOUT PROFESSOR C HEATHER ASHTON, DM, FRCP

Chrystal Heather Ashton DM, FRCP is Emeritus Professor of Clinical Psycho-pharmacology at the University of Newcastle upon Tyne, England.

Professor Ashton is a graduate of the University of Oxford and obtained a First Class Honours Degree (BA) in Physiology in 1951. She qualified in Medicine (BM, BCh, MA) in 1954 and gained a postgraduate Doctor of Medicine (DM) in 1956. She qualified as MRCP (Member of the Royal College of Physicians, London) in 1958 and was elected FRCP (Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians, London) in 1975. She also became National Health Service Consultant in Clinical Psychopharmacology in 1975 and National Health Service Consultant in Psychiatry in 1994.

She has worked at the University of Newcastle upon Tyne as researcher (Lecturer, Senior Lecturer, Reader and Professor) and clinician since 1965, first in the Department of Pharmacology and latterly in the Department of Psychiatry. Her research has centred, and continues, on the effects of psychotropic drugs (nicotine, cannabis, benzodiazepines, antidepressants and others) on the brain and behaviour in man. Her main clinical work was in running a benzodiazepine withdrawal clinic for 12 years from 1982-1994.

She is at present involved with the North East Council for Addictions (NECA) of which she is former Vice-Chairman of the Executive Committee on which she still serves. She continues to give advice on benzodiazepine problems to counsellors and is patron of the Bristol & District Tranquilliser Project. She was generic expert in the UK benzodiazepine litigation in the 1980s and has been involved with the UK organisation Victims of Tranquillisers (VOT). She has submitted evidence about benzodiazepines to the House of Commons Health Select Committee.

She has published approximately 250 papers in professional journals, books and chapters in books on psychotropic drugs of which over 50 concern benzodiazepines. She has given evidence to various Government committees on tobacco smoking, cannabis and benzodiazepines and has given invited lectures on benzodiazepines in the UK, Australia, Sweden, Switzerland and other countries.

Professor Ashton may be contacted at:
Department of Psychiatry
Royal Victoria Infirmary
Newcastle upon Tyne
NE1 4LP
England UK


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## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

I have been tapering off of it for a while. I have relapsed a few times in between but am ultimately off of it. I'm not having horrible zap feelings or panic, I am just extremely, extremely out of it. I can't remember what I did five minutes ago.


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## 1A (Aug 12, 2004)

dakotajo said:


> The top link wasnt written by a doctor but contains valuable info. Your bottom link is the Ashton Manual. That was written by a very brilliant doctor and scientist who spent a lifetime researching these drugs.
> 
> Joe


Joe,

Do you have an original hard copy of the Ashton Manual? My hard copy includes the the info that allegedly was not written by a doctor. I ordered a hard copy directly from Dr. Ashton several years ago, before she put it up on her web site for free. Since this info is included in the Ashton Manual itself, I take it to be a part of the Ashton Manual.

Best,

Jeff


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2004)

gimpy out of curiosity how much were you taking?


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## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

I've taken up to as much as 4 mg a day over the past two and a half years. I'd say on average I probably took 1.5 -2 mg.


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Gimpy,

Just hang in there. It will get better. You will probably very soon feel much better than you ever did while on this drug. Even after ct'ing my dose I probably was better in a few months. I know now that my withdrawal ended long ago, but it left me with very serotonin levels. Klonopin worked well for anxiety but all it was really doing was aggravating what was really wrong with me.

Joe


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2004)

I see this topic come up from time to time. I have been taking this drug for about 4 years now (only 0.5 mg/day) and I have no noticable side effects and it works pretty darn well - even if I have a panic attack - it disolves quickly under the tonugue and take effect immediately. It may not have the punch of Xanax or Valium, but it does the trick. I have never had to increase my dosage, and even though I am supposed to take 1 mg/day, I keep it down to 0.5 so that I can go longer without it if I need to. My doc is OK with that.

Don't EVER just stop this drug cold turkey.

My doctor has told me that if I am doing OK with 0.5/day and occasioanlly skip a dose or two, and if that's my only complaint, I should be happy. The benefits far outweigh any problems I may have.

One must realize the stuggle involved here. Do you go through life putting unnecessary fear-induced stress on your mind and body or do you tollerate some side effects and be relatively normal, at least functional? I choose the latter...and try to have a positive outlook on it all.

Good luck I hope you find a solution..or at least a compromise. :?


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## optimusrhyme (Aug 24, 2004)

Does Klonopin help DP/Dr at all?


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## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

Depends who you ask. I think it can help DP/DR in the event of a panic attack or extreme anxiety. But on the other hand it kind of slows your mind down, impairs concentration and memory, and can make you feel tired. So, in that respect it makes your DP worse. I think it made mine worse if you ask me.

One more thing. I guess I've been off Klonopin for a week now. I've recently gotten into The X-Files, which comes on TNT at 11 and 12, right before I go to bed. I've never really thought the show was scary at all but last night I was watching it and got scared sh*tless. It was kind of nice, though. I felt like my emotions were returning and becoming more attune to what was going on. Just a thought.


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

I agree with Gimpy. Very Short term its ok cause it works well for anxiety. Long term its a different story because its tolerance producing and will probably only aggravate an anxiety disorder.

Joe


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Gimpy,

The fear you have is irrational and its a symptom you can throw on the benzo withdrawal pile. It fades with time. I hear it all the time on benzo boards. I went thru it for a couple of months and at times it was almost complete paranoia. I remember going over to my mom-in-laws house to watch the football game and I totally freaked out with intense fear over something so ridiculous Id rather not mention it. I thought I was losing my mind. I look back now and it makes me sick what I went thru.

Joe


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## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

What fear are you reffering to, Joe? Being scared by the X-Files or of losing my mind. If you're talking about The X-Files, that was a good thing. I think it was the normal reaction. In my Klonopin induced stupor I was too detached from all emotions to even get scared by something like a TV show.


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## Blake (Aug 10, 2004)

jordan,

i would say try everything else before you try klonopin. when i first began klonopin i felt the first few days like i had found the cure. this was in conjunction with celexa which i had been on for many months. so you take from that what you will.

however, for all its positive effects, there immense drawbacks to it.
namely the dependence factor. its like getting married, you have to be able to accept the consequences if you want to seperate. and splitting with klonopin takes time and a lot of patience.

again, i would try to work your dp/dr out with anything else before getting on klonopin.

rock,
blake


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## optimusrhyme (Aug 24, 2004)

Yah because I'm going to the Doc's on Thursday, is there any meds I should mention to her that i could start off trying?


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Id ask for an ssri(Paxil, zoloft,celexa,lexapro,prozac). They are safe and very effective. Paxil has the most reuptake ability and alot of people get a good response from it. It might make your symptoms worse for a while but eventually it will be worth it.

Joe


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2004)

I hate to be the devil's advocate here, but let me make a few points:

1. Klonopin, in my experiecnce, does not "Help" the DP or DR itself, it simply helps you tollerate it. Instead of being terrified, it just seems kinda strange and you live with it.
2. As an annotation to point 1, DP/DR is not so easily cured by popping a pill. In fact, many drugs make it worse (like...PAXIL!).
2. So what if you are dependent on a small amount of the drug for a long time (even your whole life)? Just the fact that there is something out there that can help was an answer to my prayers.
3. The 'stupor' effect of Klonopin diminishes over time as your body adjusts. As I said in an earlier post, I have been on it for 4 years. I am a successful software engineer and business person and have no problems concentrating for very long periods of time.

So how is this supposed to help you?
You need to talk all of this over with your psychiatrist (if you have one - an MD/GP knows very little about these thing in most cases).

To sum up:
- You WILL get through this
- Non-destructive additctions are tolerable
- Your life will get back to normal, even if you are in shambles now


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## 1A (Aug 12, 2004)

soraaulos said:


> I hate to be the devil's advocate here, but let me make a few points:
> 
> 1. Klonopin, in my experiecnce, does not "Help" the DP or DR itself, it simply helps you tollerate it. Instead of being terrified, it just seems kinda strange and you live with it.
> 2. As an annotation to point 1, DP/DR is not so easily cured by popping a pill. In fact, many drugs make it worse (like...PAXIL!).
> ...


I agree with most of what you said. Taking Paxil gave me a panic attack. However, I was prescribed Paxil before even the FDA approved it, I think. This was back in March '95. I have never experienced quite a horror like the Paxil horror.

Zoloft worked okay for a while, maybe 6 months, and then my doctor switched to Prozac -- that also was nice and mild and worked well, but only up until a point.

My take is that Paxil is the strongest and most powerful of any of the popular SSRI's currently on the market.

I have taken Klonopin for 10 years now and it simply makes me a little less anxious. I have taken as much as 4mg daily and I built up a tolerance. Now, 4mg daily is nothing. I barely feel any better by taking 4mg, so I learned to take less and do yoga or meditate instead.

I have been in shambles for the better part of a decade, and wish I could be optimistic about getting back to normal, but I just don't know anymore. I just don't know.

Jeff


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2004)

1A,
And I agree with one very important point you made - to try to take less drugs and depend more on stress-reducing techniques like medication. It is VERY important to reduce the amount of stress in your life, as I have learned the hard way. Big events like buying a house, moving, getting married, etc. increase the potential for a bad DP spell in my life.

And really the point it is that you (or anyone else suffering from DP or DR) may never actually get off drugs for good. That, in my opionion, is OK, since the benefits are far better than ther detriments.

A few more words of advice - don't DWELL (that's part of the problem though, eh?). It's easy to say and perhaps harder to even do, but it's 100% necessary. I admit I took 2 years off of being on this discussion board becasue simply talking about and thinking about it made it like 10 times worse...Just thinkng about having DP is, in my experience, 50% of the probelm and can mean the difference between and good day and a bad.

Keep fighting and NEVER give up. Life has too much potential.


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2004)

Keep fighting by taking the most addicting chemical compound in the universe? Thats not really fighting, thats more like surrendering to the devil himself. If you want to talk about fighting, then lets talk about withdrawal..Now thats a fight.

Neal


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## 1A (Aug 12, 2004)

Pure Narcotic said:


> Keep fighting by taking the most addicting chemical compound in the universe? Thats not really fighting, thats more like surrendering to the devil himself. If you want to talk about fighting, then lets talk about withdrawal..Now thats a fight.
> 
> Neal


Withdrawal is hell, I know. I got off Klonopin for one year in 1999 but then was back on it in 2000. I have cut way back on Klonopin. It's not easy.

Jeff


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2004)

Pure Narcotic said:


> Keep fighting by taking the most addicting chemical compound in the universe? Thats not really fighting, thats more like surrendering to the devil himself.


I did say I was playing devil's advocate, right? :twisted:

Well as for being the most addictive chemical in the universe, I can assure you - it's not. By fighting - what do I mean by this? I suppose that warrants further explanation.

I fight for myself, for my sanity. Indeed every day is a struggle. If I give up and put myself through a withdrwal that I don't deserve, I do myslef a disservice, even though one may argue that I did myslef a disservice in the first place by taking the drug. It's circular reasoing we're talking about here. And there really is no concrete solution. We can't simply say "Drug A is bad and I had a hell of a time with withdrwal, therefore no one else should even consider it." To me that's giving up and submitting to your DP. I for one will not submit to it. It's annoying, it's often terrifying, but I will do anything and everything to combat it It's my "inner terrorist" and even if what I am doing hurts my body in some ways, I accept that. It may be a desparate fight, but at least I am fighting. Aren't we all?


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2004)

Just exactly what dosage of klonopin do you take daily? Have you ever increased your dosage?


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2004)

Most people here say they have never had problems with benzos before yet I see alot of these people taking 2,3, 4 mgs of high potency benzos a day. Thats 40-80 mgs of valium. These people have obviously hit tolerance because most doctors would never start their patient on a dosage above 1 mg per day.


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2004)

Bear in mind that while often people will have withdrawal from benzos, there is also a different explanation for the horrible feelings one has when one stops taking a med. (in some cases)

For me, the times in my life that I tried to stop taking valium WHILE I WAS STILL RIDDLED WITH SYMPTOMS was horrific. I couldn't even leave the house, I was so anxious and freaked out. After about 2 days without the valium, my dp and dr were through the roof.

A person who still has terrible mental symptoms and then tries to stop a med is going to have a very rough time. Just common sense. they were anxious and freaked out WITH the med, they sure are going to have a hell of a time if you take the med away while they're still troubled.

However, for ME (and everyone is different) when my symptoms were gone, once the therapy and the long journey was nearly done - and I no longer HAD dp, dr, or anxiety attacks, I stopped taking valium without a a blink.

It MIGHT be withdrawal that you're feeling.
or it might be that your mental state is still so precarious that when you take away your "net" you can barely think straight.

Peace,
Janine


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2004)

Pure Narcotic said:


> Just exactly what dosage of klonopin do you take daily? Have you ever increased your dosage?


0.5 mg/day. I even skip some days. I haven't increased my dosage in 4 years now. That's not to say it won't happen though.


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2004)

JanineBaker said:


> It MIGHT be withdrawal that you're feeling.
> or it might be that your mental state is still so precarious that when you take away your "net" you can barely think straight.


I concur with the idea of a "Net". I am one of those cases who always has an "emergency stash" in my wallet (BTW, I have never used it). I KNOW I can be without it physically, but mentally I MUST know it's there. While there may be no excuse or explanation for that, it is sadly true. One time I forgot my wallet and totally freaked out :?

So that is a real example of a mental addiction. I think withdrawals have some of the same attributes. It's kinda like separation anxiety.


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Your mental state before withdrawal from benzos means absolutely nothing. Saying so, is completely ridiculous. The physical and mental pain you experience during withdrawal(if you are severely dependent) happens for a reason and you have absolutely no control over it. Its a process and YOUR ONLY ALONG FOR THE RIDE. Its like saying your mental state will determine wether you will have a seizure in withdrawal. For christ sake, people die in withdrawal. Do you think your mental state factors into that?

Joe


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Very general explanation from the Ashton manual on why symptoms occur

Mechanisms of withdrawal reactions. Drug withdrawal reactions in general tend to consist of a mirror image of the drugs' initial effects. In the case of benzodiazepines, sudden cessation after chronic use may result in dreamless sleep being replaced by insomnia and nightmares; muscle relaxation by increased tension and muscle spasms; tranquillity by anxiety and panic; anticonvulsant effects by epileptic seizures. These reactions are caused by the abrupt exposure of adaptations that have occurred in the nervous system in response to the chronic presence of the drug. Rapid removal of the drug opens the floodgates, resulting in rebound overactivity of all the systems which have been damped down by the benzodiazepine and are now no longer opposed. Nearly all the excitatory mechanisms in the nervous system go into overdrive and, until new adaptations to the drug-free state develop, the brain and peripheral nervous system are in a hyperexcitable state, and extremely vulnerable to stress.


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Benzos are nothing but a highly addictive, tolerance producing anxiety mask and because of these qualities they are a very poor choice for long term anxiety management. Wether a person becomes physically dependent is luck of the draw. Most "experts" agree that in the long run they only aggravate anxiety and depressive disorders. I agree.

Joe


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