# Understand DPDR - a psychosomatic approach



## kyrikyri (Dec 4, 2021)

Hi Everyone,

I have experienced DPDR at least 3-4 times before and now again, it has reappeared two days ago following a prolonged period of anxiety and a flight (I have great fear of flying).

I thought I'd share my experience and thoughts so far if it helps.

The first two times I experienced DPDR was after panic attacks and was such a scary experience. Truth is, after 3-4 months it faded away by itself. The other times was during periods of very high anxiety when ti eventually faded away after 1-2 weeks. As many people say in this forum, once you stop thinking about it, it kind of magically goes away. Of course, we know very well how difficult this is in practice.

I would describe my case as mild. It's still scary don't get me wrong. I feel for all of you.

What is DPDR? In my own understanding (I have a background in Psychology) and in simple words, it is a defence mechanism your mind activates to protect you from high stress/anxiety. Believe me, it's as simple as this. It's a smart move from your brain... by dissociating you with external stimuli, it protects your physical and emotional being. In my opinion, the fact that my DPDR was so strong right after panic attacks, shows that there is some relationship between cortisol and epinephrine (adrenaline) overflow. For me this is a key parameter. 

And I ask... if your mind actually activates a mechanism to protect you from prolonged stress/anxiety, perhaps will disable it if you "convince" it you can manage your stress/anxiety. Could it work this way? I repeat, "convince" your mind that all is OK. You can manage by yourself now!

How I'm planning to do it then? I'll work both on a physical and mental/cognitive level.

Physical
I'm planning to flush out cortisol and adrenaline by exercising, drinking lots of water, eating as healthy as possible, absolutely avoid alcohol and caffeine or any other substances, stretch etc. This way I control the physical aspect of what I'm experiencing. Remember, everything we experience in life (even love!) is chemistry. So let's work on that chemistry as much as possible! And of course, where all the aforementioned is not enough, perhaps medication can help. This is about rebalancing our hormonal levels since in essence, cortisol and adrenaline won't go totally away. They are actually vital for many bodily functions. It's all about dropping their level and rebalancing/resetting our chemistry.

Cognitive
As much as everything is chemistry, cognitive patterns play an important role and that's where a different kind of work needs to happen. That's how you train your mind and "convince" it that you are now ready to manage stress/anxiety by yourself and without DPDR. How? Well, therapy for a start (CBT in my case) and meditation. This includes working on traumas, thinking patterns, etc. Also, be positive and keep smiling as much as possible. 
Let's release those dopamines and serotonins (anti-cortisol) as much as possible (physical + cognitive impact). I realise that music also helps me a lot by the way, especially when it comes to songs I know very well and can sing along. This way my mind doesn't trip too much, analysing the lyrics, and overthinking. I suggest music with lyrics.

That's all from my side. Would be very happy to discuss and learn from you.
We can do it! I know that some of you may have tried this without success. This cannot stop us from trying.

Let's f------ do it!


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## leminaseri (Jul 1, 2020)

one question. how can you speak for people who have this for decades, while you did have it only for 3-4 months?


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## kyrikyri (Dec 4, 2021)

leminaseri said:


> one question. how can you speak for people who have this for decades, while you did have it only for 3-4 months?


Hi there,
I speak for my self and explain that my case is mild. I want to motivate people (including my self) and explain how this can be approached both physically and cognitively. It has worked for me in the past it's what I say. I feel for everyone and wish I could help. If one single person gets help from my post then I'm happy. I understand the struggle as I'm struggling myself too at the moment. I wish nothing but the best to all sufferers, short-term and long-term.


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## coolwhip27 (Mar 14, 2015)

Exactly. I think people on here who claim there is no way out are basically manifesting a future negative reality before themselves. Cognition plays an important role in my suffering of DP, I know when something negative is occurring in my thought.


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

coolwhip27 said:


> Exactly. I think people on here who claim there is no way out are basically manifesting a future negative reality before themselves. Cognition plays an important role in my suffering of DP, I know when something negative is occurring in my thought.


I agree that it's good to have a positive outlook about it, because obsessions can probably feed DPDR, at least this is my experience. But it is important to not fall onto the other extreme: to think that one can get out of it through wishful thinking, or that if someone cannot find the way out it necessarily means they are being negative. In order to draw these conclusions we should have a deep knowledge about DPDR, but we are not even researchers in neuroscience or psychology, and even them don't really know. Some people have had it for a long time (it's called depersonnalization _disorder_), not all of them are being negative. And perhaps for some there is indeed no way out. Unless we are in everybody's mind we cannot know for sure, and we cannot pretend to know what we don't know just for the sake of positivity. Personnally my knowledge about myself and the disease needs to have solid ground. I prefer to admit what I don't know and live with it rather then make up beliefs and not trust any of them completely because I know I made them up. I have been running in that loop of believing and being disappointed for too long. I prefer to learn to be comfortable with not knowing. To the contrary, I think that making up our own truth is a kind of pessimistic path, because we don't trust that reality will be bearable.


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## coolwhip27 (Mar 14, 2015)

Trith said:


> I agree that it's good to have a positive outlook about it, because obsessions can probably feed DPDR, at least this is my experience. But it is important to not fall onto the other extreme: to think that one can get out of it through wishful thinking, or that if someone cannot find the way out it necessarily means they are being negative. In order to draw these conclusions we should have a deep knowledge about DPDR, but we are not even researchers in neuroscience or psychology, and even them don't really know. Some people have had it for a long time (it's called depersonnalization _disorder_), not all of them are being negative. And perhaps for some there is indeed no way out. Unless we are in everybody's mind we cannot know for sure, and we cannot pretend to know what we don't know just for the sake of positivity. Personnally my knowledge about myself and the disease needs to have solid ground. I prefer to admit what I don't know and live with it rather then make up beliefs and not trust any of them completely because I know I made them up. I have been running in that loop of believing and being disappointed for too long. I prefer to learn to be comfortable with not knowing. To the contrary, I think that making up our own truth is a kind of pessimistic path, because we don't trust that reality will be bearable.


I don’t think it’s about being positive, wishful thinking is not it. However it is ultimately and ONLY up to the individual to recognize and become aware of what manifests their depersonalization. DP is in no way a stand-alone disorder. Chronic DP happens because WE are disordered. So then, do you still think people have the right to say it’s unbeatable then?


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

That's right. I don't believe in the law of attraction. Manifesting a positive outlook doesn't solve all problems. Of course there is a way out for a lot of people, there are a lot of examples here and I have never seen anyone who denied that. But how do you know if people who say there is no way out for themselves are just manifesting a "future negative reality" before themselves? How do you know they are not simply telling the truth? What experience do you have that prooves there is no one in the world who will have this forever? When someone has lost their legs, nobody tells them they should believe their legs will grow again just for the sake of positivity. And as a matter of fact they can even have a positive outlook on their life without believing their legs will grow back. This is irrelevant.
And yes, DPDR is often a symptom of another disease. But specialists do say that DPDR can also be a stand alone disease. They call it depersonalization _disorder_. Elaine Hunter talks about it in her book ( Overcoming Depersonalization and Feelings of Unreality (Overcoming S): Anthony S. David, Dawn Baker, Elaine Hunter, Emma Lawrence: 9781845295547: Amazon.com: Books ) . She is the head of a department in a clinic in London who only treats patients with DPDR. She is a specialist in this field and has studied this in university, she has 20 years of experience about this disease and has probably seen and treated hundreds of patients with DPDR. She says that sometimes DPDR can be caused by panic attacks and even if you manage to stop the panic attacks and make the person free of anxiety, sometimes DPDR stays the same, and then they call it DPDR disorder and it is indeed a stand alone disorder. But my own psychiatrist did tell me that it could not be a stand alone disease, but he also exhibited a terrible lack of knowledge about DPDR. He could not even understand what a feeling of unreality could mean, he thought it was a philosophical problem and was clearly not up to date about it.
So what is your source of knowledge to say it cannot be a stand alone disease? Where did you get this information from?

Also here
"Researchers don’t know what causes these disorders. In up to half of the cases, healthcare providers cannot identify what triggers the disorder. "








Depersonalization/Derealization Disorder: Symptoms & Treatment


Depersonalization/derealization disorder is a common dissociative disorder. If it’s interfering with your life, you may need treatment.




my.clevelandclinic.org





Or here
"Depersonalization/derealization feelings are considered a disorder when the following occur:

Depersonalization or derealization occurs on its own (that is, it is not caused by drugs or another mental disorder), and it persists or recurs."









Depersonalization/Derealization Disorder - Mental Health Disorders - Merck Manuals Consumer Version


Depersonalization/Derealization Disorder - Learn about the causes, symptoms, diagnosis & treatment from the Merck Manuals - Medical Consumer Version.




www.merckmanuals.com





Or here
"The disorder tended to be chronic and persistent. Seventy-one per cent met DSM-IV criteria for primary depersonalisation disorder. "








Depersonalisation disorder: clinical features of 204 cases - PubMed


Depersonalisation disorder is a recognisable clinical entity but appears to have significant comorbidity with anxiety and depression. Research into its aetiology and treatment is warranted.




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## leminaseri (Jul 1, 2020)

Trith said:


> That's right. I don't believe in the law of attraction. Manifesting a positive outlook doesn't solve all problems. Of course there is a way out for a lot of people, there are a lot of examples here and I have never seen anyone who denied that. But how do you know if people who say there is no way out for themselves are just manifesting a "future negative reality" before themselves? How do you know they are not simply telling the truth? What experience do you have that prooves there is no one in the world who will have this forever? When someone has lost their legs, nobody tells them they should believe their legs will grow again just for the sake of positivity. And as a matter of fact they can even have a positive outlook on their life without believing their legs will grow back. This is irrelevant.
> And yes, DPDR is often a symptom of another disease. But specialists do say that DPDR can also be a stand alone disease. They call it depersonalization _disorder_. Elaine Hunter talks about it in her book ( Overcoming Depersonalization and Feelings of Unreality (Overcoming S): Anthony S. David, Dawn Baker, Elaine Hunter, Emma Lawrence: 9781845295547: Amazon.com: Books ) . She is the head of a department in a clinic in London who only treats patients with DPDR. She is a specialist in this field and has studied this in university, she has 20 years of experience about this disease and has probably seen and treated hundreds of patients with DPDR. She says that sometimes DPDR can be caused by panic attacks and even if you manage to stop the panic attacks and make the person free of anxiety, sometimes DPDR stays the same, and then they call it DPDR disorder and it is indeed a stand alone disorder. But my own psychiatrist did tell me that it could not be a stand alone disease, but he also exhibited a terrible lack of knowledge about DPDR. He could not even understand what a feeling of unreality could mean, he thought it was a philosophical problem and was clearly not up to date about it.
> So what is your source of knowledge to say it cannot be a stand alone disease? Where did you get this information from?
> 
> ...


almost everyone who recover tell the same and similar things. and almost everyone who tell they have it for 60 years are the same negative personality as well. 

i think accepting something is not that easy, that people can say „nah bro i accepted it for 20 years and it is still there“. your metaphor with the legless man was good. but i will give you another here. if you chase your ex girlfriend, until you make the clear and 100 percent decision to accept, that she will never come back, you will never forget her. and to call her every month once or twice is contradicting with „i accepted that she left me“. for me acceptance is „well i have those symptoms and this is my destiny so i have to accept it and look for good things at life.“ the man who didnt have a leg anymore could cry all his life why he lost his leg and whine and bitch everyday. but he could also be like this man here:











this picture above does not mean that he miraculously got legs. but he could also lay at home and search a forum for bionic legs and innovations. 

this is just my opinion. i dont know what others think. but if santos barrios recovered after 35 years, this alone means to me that this illness is in particular curable. because if santos barrios would have a version that is „soft“, he would recover on its own after 6 months (like many others here). and i watched his spanish videos as well and he did consistently various things and tried so much. so he achieved his recovery and he can be proud about himself. no one gifted him his recovery. there is one philosophical incontradictable thing: you can never try everything at life time. there is too much to try at an average lifetime. but i think with the negative thinking „no matter what i do my life is shit“ and „im a victim of my illness“ this person wont get anywhere at first place.


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## kyrikyri (Dec 4, 2021)

Thanks to everyone for your replies.

Surely there are various degrees of severity out there.
My approach has always been positivity with physical and cognitive optimization. I wanted to share my story with people out there and to help as many as possible. I have relapses from time to time but I've learned by now how to manage it.
I remember while experiencing DPDR for the first time (lowest point of my life!), I read an interesting advice somewhere about embracing the condition: "It's like being drunk or high without spending a penny if you think about it." Somehow this funny approach helped me in the darkest hour.
Of course, scientific evidence is beyond what I tell you. But I'll keep saying it again and again. You can do it. Identify the source of the problem with a therapist, work hard on it, optimise your body and mind, take pills if you have to but don't rely on them solely. Medication can be an excellent booster if nothing else works, but it's there only to propell you and give you that extra push in my honest opinion. I've taken pills, both anti-depressant and anti-psychotics. You know what? They made me number than I was, their side effects were insufferable. It was after I stopped them that my mind could finally think and my heart could finally feel. 
This story is mine people. But the fight is our fight. 
We simply cannot give up! It's one life guys!


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## kyrikyri (Dec 4, 2021)

Never interrupt or stop your medication without your doctor's approval!!! Always inform and follow professional advice when it comes to that.


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

leminaseri said:


> almost everyone who recover tell the same and similar things. and almost everyone who tell they have it for 60 years are the same negative personality as well.
> 
> i think accepting something is not that easy, that people can say „nah bro i accepted it for 20 years and it is still there“. your metaphor with the legless man was good. but i will give you another here. if you chase your ex girlfriend, until you make the clear and 100 percent decision to accept, that she will never come back, you will never forget her. and to call her every month once or twice is contradicting with „i accepted that she left me“. for me acceptance is „well i have those symptoms and this is my destiny so i have to accept it and look for good things at life.“ the man who didnt have a leg anymore could cry all his life why he lost his leg and whine and bitch everyday. but he could also be like this man here:
> 
> ...



I am not sure I understand the analogy completely. To be clear, I am not saying that there are any cases that are impossible to cure. Nor that we should give up trying. Some people will die with this illness and some others won't. For those who died with it, we will never know if they could have tried something else successfully or if they could not be cured at all. So we don't know. And all I am saying is that if we don't know we cannot claim that we know. We cannot say that some forms are impossible to cure, and in the same way we cannot say that all forms can be cured.
Personally I am fed up with my own fantasies. I want to live in reality. And if reality is that we don't know, then I wanto live in that reality and accept that I don't know. That being said, I keep trying, because if there is any chance I can be free from it I want to find it.
The fact that I defend the idea that some people might not be curable doesn't mean I know (nor think) there are any, nor that I am one of them. I just don't want to pretend knowing the things I don't know.
I don't want people to think they can't be cured when they can. And if some people can't be cured I want them to be accepted and not blamed for where they are in life. The solution to all of this is to just accept that we don't know. To encourage everyone, and not blame anyone. I mean blaming them for example by saying they necessarily have a negative outlook on their life and this is why they are here.
Anyway, if anyone has had this for decades I can imagine they have a negative outlook (I am not part of them, I keep trying and I have hope). Maybe they have a negative outlook because it lasted too long for them and not the other way around (not everyone is like this guy).
Again, I don't understand why me defending this idea means I am whining about my own case. Actually I am trying lamotrigine + SSRI now and it is partially working so far. So please don't misunderstand what I am saying. And even if I wasn't recovering, my point still stands.

Anyway, even if some people are being negative about their recovery (and this is irrelevant to the point I just made) why should it bother other people so much? No one needs to hate negative people to fuel their own positivity, which would be paradoxical anyway. It is like the paradox of people who quit smoking and start hating those who still do. They quit but they are still addicted.

Edit: Anyway, thanks for the name of Santos Barrios. I didn't know him and will check him out.


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## coolwhip27 (Mar 14, 2015)

Trith said:


> I am not sure I understand the analogy completely. To be clear, I am not saying that there are any cases that are impossible to cure. Nor that we should give up trying. Some people will die with this illness and some others won't. For those who died with it, we will never know if they could have tried something else successfully or if they could not be cured at all. So we don't know. And all I am saying is that if we don't know we cannot claim that we know. We cannot say that some forms are impossible to cure, and in the same way we cannot say that all forms can be cured.
> Personally I am fed up with my own fantasies. I want to live in reality. And if reality is that we don't know, then I wanto live in that reality and accept that I don't know. That being said, I keep trying, because if there is any chance I can be free from it I want to find it.
> The fact that I defend the idea that some people might not be curable doesn't mean I know (nor think) there are any, nor that I am one of them. I just don't want to pretend knowing the things I don't know.
> I don't want people to think they can't be cured when they can. And if some people can't be cured I want them to be accepted and not blamed for where they are in life. The solution to all of this is to just accept that we don't know. To encourage everyone, and not blame anyone. I mean blaming them for example by saying they necessarily have a negative outlook on their life and this is why they are here.
> ...


His analogy was pointing to the idea that depersonalization is, globally (for everyone) the result of something we control yet keep doing.

Your analogy of losing your legs and not knowing how to recover them maintains truth so long as it actually _IS_ impossible to recover from DP for some. But I disagree, we can all agree that depersonalization disorder occurs in the mind and not our legs, therefore we ARE in control. 

Whether or not we recognize whatever it is which creates our DP is dependent on us (of our own thoughts), whether it’s anxiety, ocd, fear, or some other mental distortion. It has to be something occurring in the mind, not nothing. Your narrative about it being a mystery is wrong. And the law of attraction is real, but it doesn’t mean that positivity is the only thing required. You have to find yourself out of the jungle to find out what that means.


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

coolwhip27 said:


> His analogy was pointing to the idea that depersonalization is, globally (for everyone) the result of something we control yet keep doing.
> 
> Your analogy of losing your legs and not knowing how to recover them maintains truth so long as it actually _IS_ impossible to recover from DP for some. But I disagree, we can all agree that depersonalization disorder occurs in the mind and not our legs, therefore we ARE in control.
> 
> Whether or not we recognize whatever it is which creates our DP is dependent on us (of our own thoughts), whether it’s anxiety, ocd, fear, or some other mental distortion. It has to be something occurring in the mind, not nothing. Your narrative about it being a mystery is wrong. And the law of attraction is real, but it doesn’t mean that positivity is the only thing required. You have to find yourself out of the jungle to find out what that means.


It's not because it is in the mind that we have control over it. Look at schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, epilepsy, parkinson's disease, severe depression, narcolepsy, disability caused by brain damage, hypnagogic hallucinations, sleepwalking, amnesia, dementia, low IQ, autism, or some types of aphasia (edit: or simply being high on a drug, you can't "un-high" yourself). I am not saying that DPDR is related to any of these diseases, but they are just counter examples to your assertion, showing this is not always true, which means you cannot apply it for sure to DPDR. You could argue that some of them occur "in the brain and not in the mind", and that because DPDR occurs in the mind then it is different (which is a dubious assertion as the mind occurs in the brain too until proven otherwise). But even if we admit that "mind diseases" are curable (and you would have to define precisely what a mind disease is) you have yet to prove that DPDR is in the mind for everyone. This is just a bold assertion.
And you are saying that the law of attraction is real without providing any argument. But what is asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. So I will just say that the law of attraction isn't true and my assertion is as valid as yours.

"Your analogy of losing your legs and not knowing how to recover them maintains truth so long as it actually _IS_ impossible to recover from DP for some. "

I didn't make this analogy to prove that DPDR can't be cured, just that some problems can't be cured and that doesn't necessarily mean that people who have them for all their life have a negative outlook on their life. I am not saying that it is the case for DPDR, just that there are cases where it is true, which means that one cannot say that every person who has a disease for all their life have a negative outlook on their life, nor that their disease is caused by a negative outlook. So it might very well be the case for some people who have DPDR until proven otherwise.
But read me well, I didn't say it was impossible to be cured for some people, just that we don't know. And even if it was true that all of us can be cured, it's not us non specialists on an internet forum who will prove it. If one could understand the mechanisms of a disease just by having it therapists wouldn't exist.


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## leminaseri (Jul 1, 2020)

Trith said:


> It's not because it is in the mind that we have control over it. Look at schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, epilepsy, parkinson's disease, severe depression, narcolepsy, disability caused by brain damage, hypnagogic hallucinations, sleepwalking, amnesia, dementia, low IQ, autism or some types of aphasia. I am not saying that DPDR is related to any of these diseases, but they are just counter examples to your assertion, showing this is not always true, which means you cannot apply it for sure to DPDR. You could argue that some of them occur "in the brain and not in the mind", and that because DPDR occurs in the mind then it is different (which is a dubious assertion as the mind occurs in the brain too until proven otherwise). But even if we admit that "mind diseases" are curable (and you would have to define precisely what a mind disease is) you have yet to prove that DPDR is in the mind for everyone. This is just a bold assertion.
> And you are saying that the law of attraction is real without providing any argument. But what is asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. So I will just say that the law of attraction isn't true and my assertion is as valid as yours.
> 
> "Your analogy of losing your legs and not knowing how to recover them maintains truth so long as it actually _IS_ impossible to recover from DP for some. "
> ...


im fine with your thoughts actually, and its reasonable to an extend. but, for example, people with severe depression can also suffer lifelong from it. but it is never the main theme. „depression is highly likely a lifelong thing.“ is never discussed not in psychiatry and also not in the media. it is believed that depression can be beaten and it is very dependent on the lifestyle and attitude of one patient. and i think it is a similar case when it comes to dpdr. 

you mentioned schizophrenia. 33 percent of schizophrenics do have only one psychotic episode. and i dont believe at this statistic that much, the dark figure should be much higher. while the other 33 percent is counted as recurrent, means more than one episode at life, which could be also 2 or 3. 

long story short, i believe the vast majority of people recovers from dpdr. just like at depression. and if someone suffers his whole life from depression, this doesnt mean that depression is not curable. that means, that some people have bad luck at life, or maybe, they didnt try hard enough. and i believe there are so many people who got rid of dpdr without seeking any help, so they havent been counted in the statistics. 

when it comes to scientific evidence, and what it does prove at all. here is an interesting opinion:



> Then sense-data spoke up: “What assurance have you that your reliance on [reason] is not like your reliance on sense-data? Indeed, you used to have confidence in me. Then the reason-judge came along and gave me the lie. But were it not for the reason-judge, you would still accept me as true. So there may be, beyond the perception of reason, another judge. And if the latter revealed itself, it would give the lie to the judgments of reason, just as the reason-judge revealed itself and gave the lie to the judgments of sense. The mere fact of the nonappearance of that further perception does not prove the impossibility of its existence.”


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## coolwhip27 (Mar 14, 2015)

You really want to compare depersonalization to something like Parkinsons? If I’m hearing this right, you are in denial of what DP is. Even so-called “experts” will agree that DP has nothing to do with degradation of biological processes, LOL. By being aware of the definition DP implies and a little bit of common sense (no Superman experts needed), you can see that YOU, YOUR mind is disordered. Not unavailable background biological processes, I’m talking about the conscious mind. So What’s that mean? It means there needs to be a complete mutation of the self, an actual change within ourselves to overcome the disorder. I don’t care how many experts you’ve studied or how much extensive research you’ve done, you can’t tell me im wrong. it is still belligerently arrogant to say that just because I don’t have sufficient (good enough) evidence for yourself means I’m wrong. Oh it’s because _the experts said so_. But who notified them? What exactly is evidence anyway? Articles on the internet? Seriously, just stop

I care about the truth. Not giving people a right to say they’r incurable. The fact is that EVERY SINGLE PERSON who beats DP says the same thing. It is US who have to change ourselves. People like you don’t want the truth, too caught up in semantics and arguing.


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

coolwhip27 said:


> You really want to compare depersonalization to something like Parkinsons? If I’m hearing this right, you are in denial of what DP is. Even so-called “experts” will agree that DP has nothing to do with degradation of biological processes, LOL. By being aware of the definition DP implies and a little bit of common sense (no Superman experts needed), you can see that YOU, YOUR mind is disordered. Not unavailable background biological processes, I’m talking about the conscious mind. So What’s that mean? It means there needs to be a complete mutation of the self, an actual change within ourselves to overcome the disorder. I don’t care how many experts you’ve studied or how much extensive research you’ve done, you can’t tell me im wrong. it is still belligerently arrogant to say that just because I don’t have sufficient (good enough) evidence for yourself means I’m wrong. Oh it’s because _the experts said so_. But who notified them? What exactly is evidence anyway? Articles on the internet? Seriously, just stop
> 
> I care about the truth. Not giving people a right to say they’r incurable. The fact is that EVERY SINGLE PERSON who beats DP says the same thing. It is US who have to change ourselves. People like you don’t want the truth, too caught up in semantics and arguing.


You are saying that it is normal not to have control over Parkinson's disease because it is due to biological processes and not "due to the mind". But you nicely picked on Parkinson's disease and left all the others out. So how about schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, severe depression, narcolepsy, hypnagogic hallucinations, sleepwalking, amnesia, low IQ, autism, or some types of aphasia, or being high? Plus some imbalence in some neurotransmitters have been identify for DPDR. In _all_ these diseases they all have distorted minds and still they can't change themselves by shear will and a "change of the self". So your assumption that "disortion of the mind" can be cured by "a change of the self" is just proven wrong by all these examples. So you need to use something else. It's not that it's not sufficient for me, it's just that that assumption, that theory, is just wrong given the number of counter examples. And also I am not into consciousness pseudoscience.
I don't see why you would be better at analyzing DPDR than researchers that analyzed more cases than just one as you did with yourself with your "distorted mind". The few articles I have posted are 1. a scientific paper, the second one is a webpage written by David Spiegel (a quick search to see all his scientific publications about depersonalization Google Scholar and if you do a research about depersonalization itself, you find 115 000 scientific publications, and just try to count how many are very relevant to DPDR depersonalization https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=fr&as_sdt=0,5&q=depersonalization&btnG= ) I am talking about scientific articles, like results of studies. Do you know how this works? It's their freaking job. What is _your_ job? Accounting? I am not talking about the research I have done, I am talking about the research _they_ have done, not by asking for some patient's opinion or by waiting to be "notified" by them, but by doing actual studies themselves. Do you know how this works? If just having the disease makes you smarter than them, why don't you go there to teach them? Yes, I can tell you you are wrong. I am just doing that now. How arrogant can you be to think you know better than scientists... Why don't you go there and replace them all? Fire them all and teach everyone the truth, you will save the world. Talk about being arrogant...
And, no, some people who "beat" DP do so thanks to medicines and not the way you say. Some recovered by doing a lot of sports. Countless people say they recovered spontaneously and they don't know why. You are throwing away all the evidence that doesn't match your theory just based on your theory itself. If anyone says they have recovered not the way you say, you will still argue that they did but don't realize it. You are disregarding the evidence that doesn't go along with your theory and wonder that everything proves your theory is right... And also you are only considering people who did recover, again only to confirm your theory. But how about people who did not recover during all their life, since this is what we are talking about? How do you know if they could have recovered since they didn't during their lifetime? Of course they will not confirm your theory nor disprove it, precisely because they didn't recover during their lifetime. And you will say that they could have recovered if they did this and that. How could you know how they could have recovered since they didn't? If there existed a from of DPDR that could not be cured (and I don't know this) you would have the exact same result as we have now. Some people just don't recover during their lifetime. Just the same. So this is just your theory and there is no way you can prove it. Actually nobody knows for sure, and this is my whole point. This is all I am saying. Maybe you are right about them but how do you know? You don't know. I don't know. That's all.
Again, I am not defending that some people can't recover. I am defending that nobody knows. Especially if we are not researchers in that topic.
And since you say we should "change ourselves" and not be "caught up in arguing", just change yourself by yourself and stop being caught up in arguing with me. Stop saying how you will recover but didn't yet. Show me how it's done. Actually don't show me. Just do it and let me argue.


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## coolwhip27 (Mar 14, 2015)

Trith said:


> You are saying that it is normal not to have control over Parkinson's disease because it is due to biological processes and not "due to the mind". But you nicely picked on Parkinson's disease and left all the others out. So how about schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, severe depression, narcolepsy, hypnagogic hallucinations, sleepwalking, amnesia, low IQ, autism, or some types of aphasia, or being high? Plus some imbalence in some neurotransmitters have been identify for DPDR. In _all_ these diseases they all have distorted minds and still they can't change themselves by shear will and a "change of the self". So your assumption that "disortion of the mind" can be cured by "a change of the self" is just proven wrong by all these examples. So you need to use something else. It's not that it's not sufficient for me, it's just that that assumption, that theory, is just wrong given the number of counter examples. And also I am not into consciousness pseudoscience.
> I don't see why you would be better at analyzing DPDR than researchers that analyzed more cases than just one as you did with yourself with your "distorted mind". The few articles I have posted are 1. a scientific paper, the second one is a webpage written by David Spiegel (a quick search to see all his scientific publications about depersonalization Google Scholar and if you do a research about depersonalization itself, you find 115 000 scientific publications, and just try to count how many are very relevant to DPDR depersonalization https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=fr&as_sdt=0,5&q=depersonalization&btnG= ) I am talking about scientific articles, like results of studies. Do you know how this works? It's their freaking job. What is _your_ job? Accounting? I am not talking about the research I have done, I am talking about the research _they_ have done, not by asking for some patient's opinion or by waiting to be "notified" by them, but by doing actual studies themselves. Do you know how this works? If just having the disease makes you smarter than them, why don't you go there to teach them? Yes, I can tell you you are wrong. I am just doing that now. How arrogant can you be to think you know better than scientists... Why don't you go there and replace them all? Fire them all and teach everyone the truth, you will save the world. Talk about being arrogant...
> And, no, some people who "beat" DP do so thanks to medicines and not the way you say. Some recovered by doing a lot of sports. Countless people say they recovered spontaneously and they don't know why. You are throwing away all the evidence that doesn't match your theory just based on your theory itself. If anyone says they have recovered not the way you say, you will still argue that they did but don't realize it. You are disregarding the evidence that doesn't go along with your theory and wonder that everything proves your theory is right... And also you are only considering people who did recover, again only to confirm your theory. But how about people who did not recover during all their life, since this is what we are talking about? How do you know if they could have recovered since they didn't during their lifetime? Of course they will not confirm your theory nor disprove it, precisely because they didn't recover during their lifetime. And you will say that they could have recovered if they did this and that. How could you know how they could have recovered since they didn't? If there existed a from of DPDR that could not be cured (and I don't know this) you would have the exact same result as we have now. Some people just don't recover during their lifetime. Just the same. So this is just your theory and there is no way you can prove it. Actually nobody knows for sure, and this is my whole point. This is all I am saying. Maybe you are right about them but how do you know? You don't know. I don't know. That's all.
> Again, I am not defending that some people can't recover. I am defending that nobody knows. Especially if we are not researchers in that topic.
> And since you say we should "change ourselves" and not be "caught up in arguing", just change yourself by yourself and stop being caught up in arguing with me. Stop saying how you will recover but didn't yet. Show me how it's done. Actually don't show me. Just do it and let me argue.


I made one claim. That is, the mind itself is the ultimate cure. Constantly seeking out help to beat disorders that are rooted in the mind is counterproductive to one's self. For they are teaching themselves that to be in control of their own mind is an impossible task. See? You ask me how its done, but there is no "straight-line" process for everyone, is there? We already agree on that. And you may not be able to witness first-hand somebody going through a complete mutation of self on their own, simply because you are not them. *But this is not conscious pseudoscience, the mind is either operating on disorder or it is a free mind*. The elephant in the room when it comes to disorders such as these, is that if psychiatrists and doctors insisted that the answer is in you then the people who are disordered would have nobody to turn to. Look around you, trith. People seek help in every direction, and you will find that the minds rooted in fear, disorder and confusion are not turning to themselves. This is a very simple claim, and it should not need to be stated twice. You insist that we cannot know if it is possible for everyone, but that claim is in denial of the facts. Yes, there is no doubt that medicine can be useful and help the brain encourage positive processes. I am not stating that some people are not in such mental agony, but why are they? Fear, guilt, blame, and all negative processes in a mind WILL encourage them to be miserable. You can try look at it objectively all you want, yet it is ALWAYS the mind itself that decides to change which will gain its own freedom.


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## tikobird (Feb 26, 2008)

coolwhip27 said:


> I don’t think it’s about being positive, wishful thinking is not it. However, it is ultimately and ONLY up to the individual to recognize and become aware of what manifests their depersonalization. DP is in no way a stand-alone disorder. Chronic DP happens because WE are disordered. So then, do you still think people have the right to say it’s unbeatable then?


I agree. I have chronic DP and at its worst, it's accompanied by generalized anxiety disorder and sometimes depression. For most of my life, I've just accepted the symptoms no matter how frightening they are sometimes. I still live with it every day but keep living my life while attempting to find answers. We each have different experiences


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## Chip1021 (Mar 24, 2018)

leminaseri said:


> im fine with your thoughts actually, and its reasonable to an extend. but, for example, people with severe depression can also suffer lifelong from it. but it is never the main theme. „depression is highly likely a lifelong thing.“ is never discussed not in psychiatry and also not in the media. it is believed that depression can be beaten and it is very dependent on the lifestyle and attitude of one patient. and i think it is a similar case when it comes to dpdr.
> 
> you mentioned schizophrenia. 33 percent of schizophrenics do have only one psychotic episode. and i dont believe at this statistic that much, the dark figure should be much higher. while the other 33 percent is counted as recurrent, means more than one episode at life, which could be also 2 or 3.
> 
> ...


I just had to respond to this by saying: I’m loving this quote with “sense-data” and “reason-judge.” What is it from?


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## leminaseri (Jul 1, 2020)

Chip1021 said:


> I just had to respond to this by saying: I’m loving this quote with “sense-data” and “reason-judge.” What is it from?


you can read anything from imam al ghazali. dont know if you heard from him but hes one of the biggest philosophers of the history.


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