# Victim-hood as a Saftey Net



## turnIntoearth (Feb 26, 2007)

Let me just toss this one out there... Hopefully I wont be pilloried.
Have any of you had the thought that goes something similar to this:
_
*"Well, I tried my best to get the job/assignment/responsibility done, but I just couldn't, because I'm DP right now..." *
_
The implied meaning there being that: It's not that you're lazy or irresponsible, you are struggling with an illness and doing the best you can.

Now what if that same thought process started to turn into avoidance, or something beyond a simple admission of difficulty:

_*"I just can't bring myself to go into work today because of my DP... but then again, I hate that job anyway." *_

Or maybe it even goes as far as this:

_*"Go make me dinner, I'm the one with DP after all..."*_

So I will submit to you this notion, which I know that I've dealt with first hand, as an open question:
At what point does a legitimate psychological condition start to become just an excuse for one's behavior?

_~T_


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## monnolith (Feb 21, 2007)

tIe - this is even deeper than the beginning of the artificial intelligence thread. Good for you.

If the first step to recovery is admitting [you] have a problem, then it can be reasoned that the next step might be for others to recognize and accept it as well. Wouldn't that give an "easy out" for us DPers to just continue to tune out or even give us an excuse to not do the things we know we should, but can't bring ourselves to do in the first place?

Recently, I've been impacted by negativity in the workplace. My department is currently experiencing 50% turnover, and the department itself has less than 10 people to begin with. This affects me greatly, and my morale/work ethic decline because of it. If my DP were figured into this equation too, then I could probably just go on "stress-leave" and spend most of my time watching reruns of The Dukes of Hazard and eating Freetos. "Hey, my work environment sucks, and that's the reason I'm a fat slob with greesy lips and food crumbs in my bellybutton..."

Yeah, right.

I understand where you're coming from tho, and it would be easy to slip into that train of thought. I try very hard to keep my worklife seperate from my personal life, and that is where I consider myself to have DP. If I let it affect me anywhere else, then I'll surely be doomed. Does it bleed through? Yes. But do I try to keep things emotionally seperate. Yes.

Relationships, on the other hand, are a little more tricky. Healthy relationship = emotional stability, where as even just a little bit of stryfe can equal complete shut-down and drop-off of anything gained, built, or achieved. Or so has been the case with me. "Hey, I'm the one here with a condition," (met with laughter and/or disbelief,) "Sheesh, why bother?" This could be a docudrama of my life (with me played by Vin Diesel, or Woody Allen - I haven't decided which one truly captures my inner-qualities best).

What I'm trying to say here is, yes, it is easy to play the victim, but people who play the victim rarely seek to cure or help themselves, because of the attention they get, and the leniency the experience. To see DP as a justification for poor behavior is not being a victim, but being a sociopath.


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## invisible.ink (Feb 2, 2007)

I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, I don't believe we should not do things we need or want to do because of DP. But sometimes I do just need a day to just kick back and laze around because I'm so anxious or DP'ed.
When I get severely DP'ed, the thing that helps me the most is actually cooking and cleaning. I clean my house vigorously and I completely forget that I'm DP'ed until I'm done, usually. Unfortunately, that is not entirely healthy, either, because I've become very compulsive about it.
When I first became chronically DP'ed, I felt I couldn't do anything. I was terrified. Then I found this site and realized that it is possible to go on living with this condition. So, I didn't victimize myself. I went on living.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

That's called playing the sick role.

I admit that today I am going to ask for special consideration on something but it is more to do with depression than dissociation.

Funnily enough I don't regard myself as a victim at all for being depressed. I just regard it as a practical thing: a state of health in which I am struggling to stay on top of my commitments (inc. social life) because my lust for life (in the real world) is much diminished.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

This is extremely difficult to answer, and also makes me feel guilty, angry, confused at why I my work is what I do at home ... writing, being a mental health advocate through words.

I haven't lost just my career, my dreams, I am isolated. I am not social. And this isn't to say I haven't tried like a maniac for years.

I don't intend to be defensive, please don't read it that way, and I'm not angry with the question.

Since I had this since childhood with anxiety, severe anxiety, I STILL forced myself to learn, to follow my dreams. I still studied music, voice, theatre. I went to music camp, I performed in a million productions ... never getting any relief from the anxiety and specifically the DP/DR.

I felt my gig was up when I was in 6th grade. I won awards for my music and theatre in prep school. I won writing awards. I have a B.A. in Liberal Arts. I wanted to major in singing, piano, and theatre. I couldn't. I was a ball of panic, even during auditions. I worked behind the scenes. FORCED myself.

I then figured, I was doomed with that -- all I ever wanted to do -- and forced myself to get an MA in film/tv production. I received highest honors, I won an internship to work at Fox studios on a TV show (production assistant). I was given the opportunity to audition for the show itself. But I kept saying, working behind the scenes would be easier. Nope. Working in a theatre, or helping produce a TV show. No difference. And I loved all of it. Wanted to be a part of the laughter the fun. I never felt joy. Only accomplishment. Not joy. No relaxation. No let up.

All I did was go to work, come home and sleep. I could barely function. It was the life I WANTED. I had no time or energy for friends, dates. I didn't eat. I worked 16 hour days, slept, went back to work. If anything I got worse.

As time went on, I realized I had to leave -- was not fired, and they were sad to see me go, I even turned down an offer to work on a film in production. I lied (out of humiliation) and said I was going for a Ph.D. which I thought I might do.

I ended up being a medical secretary. I took computer classes. I took further education at UCLA. I tried every damned alternative. My last job was 3.5 years Part Time as an office manager (alone w/the principal) of a Synagogue pre-school.

There was not one day I felt better.

For me, there came a time where I literally fell completely apart.

That is my whole life. I have done a billion wonderful things. Forced myself. And at no time do I feel better. On meds/w/therapy/w time my symptoms are less horrible, but my life ... why would I choose to be this way?

I fought and fought, and I'm still trying to make something out of this damned DP by speaking up about it. Writing about it.

There is no relief.

I think each of us is unique. Always say that. Perhaps some people use this as an excuse. I don't think I ever have. When I have been DYING at work I occasionally/RARELY have said, "I feel sick to my stomach", or have gone into the bathroom for an hour. I have gone in extra hours on weekends w/no pay, knowing there would be days I couldn't see what I was doing, so I could "fake it through the day" -- I would get ahead of as much work as possible.

I can speak for myself. And it is sad and scary. I am sick. I also know I am eligible for disablity, but I have a marriage of convenience and could not get the disablity because of my husband's income.

I just have to say this sometimes. This is like saying people choose to be seriously depressed. That people choose to be bipolar.

I won't go on. I guess most of all it hurts. And I often ask myself now, "Did I not try hard enough?" But I think I did. I've even been beating up on myself about THAT.

I can only say, who would choose to suffer, to NOT be able to enjoy life, to AVOID the good things. I make an effort to enjoy beautiful things. I can't connect with them. It is painful to go outside, on a beautiful day, look at a beautiful lake, and yet not connect with it. I don't laugh, or smile, I cry.

I'm so, so tired of this.
I am "a longtimer". This is NOT the fate of everyone here. But it is a battle for many. Many here, or who have posted here, some I've met are on disablity, and still miserable. They aren't kicking back enjoying life on the dole. They are still sick.

Just my 10 cents. Every single person here is different. Every single one of us.

Peace,
Dreamer


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Ah, and I have also worked in shitty jobs, but never left without proper notice. I have been a waitress -- a horrible job. I have worked in offices where I was harassed and followed the rule of thumb -- find another job first before quitting. Give them 2 weeks notice minimum, even if I was dying.

I was always driven by shame.

And I have always wanted to be productive. I WANT to contribute to the world. I envy a good friend from college who seems to have everything -- work, two beautiful children, a wonderful husband, a freakin' dog I adore.

That's all I want/wanted. I have none of it. None. If I weren't ill, and won the lottery, I would work at something, with dream projects.

So this has never been an excuse to leave a horrible job either, and I was handed the job of my dreams on a silver platter, but I worked my ass off for it.

And still, no joy. No life. I don't even feel loved.
God, I'm sad right now. But I don't want pity here.

Only empathy. Not SYMPATHY. Empathy. Understanding.
I died a long time ago.


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## turnIntoearth (Feb 26, 2007)

Let me just say first, thanks to all for the excellent replies.

Dreamer, wow.... you have said it all right there. Encapsulated the experience, magnified it and described it in detail to a "T". Now, I just kind of outlined the basic idea, and you have fleshed it out and colored it in. I know you dug really deep for those words... I do understand you. Thank you for this response!

Allow me one clarification...
I by no means meant to imply that anyone with DP/DR or any mental illness is in fact just using it as an excuse, or "kicking back" on disability. The scenario I described is a nuance in the spectrum of experience for those who deal with DP/DR, roughly reflecting where I feel myself to currently be: It borders on that place where DP does occasionally interfere with normal functioning, yet is not crippling. It comes and goes with the circumstances. There are moments of haziness and disconnect, but also moments of feeling and clarity, somewhere on the road to recovery.

Part of me is still anxious and afraid, and not wanting to face the real world. I shy away from social interaction, even though I'd really like some friends. I put off responsibilities, even ones that are casual and easy, until the very last second, hoping they'll go away... because they seem too large in my mind... overwhelming. And yet on sunnier days, I am more comfortable around people and I get things done, no problem.

So in this state of in-between, I might feel capable and unafraid, and start in on a task or go out among people. Then I begin to get afraid and anxious, and the DP takes me out. But I was fine until then. _I make excuses_ and retreat into the safety of isolation. I know that the DP is not completely holding me back, but some days it does.
I am trying to make sense of this transitional place, where I am about half-way there. In situations where perhaps I could push myself and overcome an obstacle, I draw back, into my comfort zone, and pass it all off as some symptom of DP, anxiety or social phobia. _I make excuses for my behavior_, when not all that long ago, they were not excuses, but valid, honest-to-god reasons why I couldn't do something. Now I feel like I might actually be able to, yet the fear and anxiety prompt me to look backward instead of forward. It is perhaps the last hurdle towards truly recovering.

If I didn't feel the fear towards life, I wouldn't be triggered into DP, and I certainly wouldn't shy away from engaging life, or make excuses for why I can't do necessary things. This is my root cause. It's different for everyone, but mine started with fear and anxiety. Now the DP and fear are starting to subside, but some of that fear is still there and I think I am ashamed of it. I want it to not be there. I make excuses for why it is there. I make excuses for why I am creeping around the shadowy perimeters of life, instead of meeting it directly. It is within my grasp, and only out of fear and a sense of reckless abandon that I throw it away. Part of me is afraid, and wants to stay a victim, because it is a safe place to be. People care for victims. Perhaps I am dealing with some traits of an illness, but I am getting better. The problem is that this recovery is putting me in situations that cause me to relapse into circles of fear and anxiety, which causes more DP. I take a step or two forward, than one back. And I hate this. And so I call myself a victim, stay in a safe and isolated place, and excuse myself from living fully, because I haven't figured out how to do it yet. I can't stand being in-between... It might seem absurd, but I get this feeling like I either want to be a whole and complete person, or shattered to absolute bits.

*Upon revision, I think that I got rather off course with this last paragraph. I apologize for repetitions and/or muddled thoughts. As you can see, it turned into something of a confession. I hope it was understandable.*

_~T_


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## Lynch_mob (Jan 10, 2007)

Who would choose?

We chose. The moment when we faced the question to chose reality or DP.... AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME when we were forced with that descion, we chose this. And now it's just a matter of time until we're ready to come out.


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## invisible.ink (Feb 2, 2007)

turnIntoearth, I can completely relate to your post. You summed up my feelings in words, something I have trouble doing. 
I can especially relate to the last bit about either wanting to be complete and whole, or completely shattered. Not in between.


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## Lynch_mob (Jan 10, 2007)

Ok so we can all relate.. Now what do we do about it?


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Dear Dreamer, 
Thanks for writing all that; I appreciate your sharing life/career experience.

I'm messed up...there's no point in writing about it in more complicated terms.

I hope I can learn things from your story. Both that I should keep applying myself, no matter what, but also the importance of balance.

All the best, I am thinking about you.
Rozanne


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## turnIntoearth (Feb 26, 2007)

Lynch_mob said:


> Ok so we can all relate.. Now what do we do about it?


Well, as I've said, I see myself on the road to recovery; things used to be far worse, and I have improved a great deal. Just an example: Years ago, I couldn't talk on the telephone or look someone directly in the eye because of social phobia. I found it hard to maintain a conversation or hold down a job because I dissociated so badly. OK, now I can do these things most of the time with no big problems. But, what got me there? Years of therapy, Paxil, and a supportive family.

What will finally get me well again? I don't think therapy and support, or medication and alternative treatments can cure you. I think it finally does come down to a decision... to face the root of all disorder and watch it dissolve, or look away and allow it to stay where it is.

Of course, facing this thing isn't easy to do. Some people have it buried so far inside of them that they may never get to it. It may take a lifetime. Or it may take months or years. Everyone is different. I believe that the act of finding this center within yourself is equally as individualized:
However I got to where I am is going to dictate how I trace my path back to its source and reclaim the entirety for myself.

_~T_


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

I appreciate this thread as well. I had a very rough time recently, last summer. I went to a seminar to speak "IOOV" -- In Our Own Voice, a training session, two days, about a 6 hour day each, to learn how to present for NAMI in various venues. Schools, to police, doctors, families of the mentally ill. Other mentally ill people.

I absolutely fell apart. It was devastating. There were individuals with schizoprhenia and bipolar who had "accepted" and moved on with "successes" -- there is a series one talks about w/a video, starting w/"dark days" and moving towards "acceptance, success and dreams".

I wanted to leave. But I stayed. I was stunned at how bad my anxiety was. Almost worse than the DP/DR. But for me they go together. Oddly enough the anxiety was worse. Debilitating.

Everyone at that seminar had a mental illness. Everyone there had come to a level of acceptance. I realized I haven't come anywhere near acceptance. Acceptance doesn't mean "giving up" -- it means that for some people this is like diabetes, this is something that is something you work around. Some do better than others.

It has been many years since I've had reality. I've had little "snippets" now and then, but in the past few years, none. None of significance. Moments, seconds. And then of course, the DP/DR worsen.

Yes, the longer time takes its toll. But I admire anyone who is able to keep picking themselves up after getting knocked in the head over and over.

We each do the best we can. And *earth* I believe you sound like someone who is in a good place -- you have support of your family, you've been improving. I know what you're talking about. I was doing better say in my MA program. But in a sense I was OVER doing.

We each have our own limits. I've been trying to prove I deserve to be alive every day. I realize that's idiotic. It's unnecessary. Sounds like you've come a long way.

My comments aren't intended to discourage anyone.

Peace O' Mind,
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

invisible.ink said:


> turnIntoearth, I can completely relate to your post. You summed up my feelings in words, something I have trouble doing.
> I can especially relate to the last bit about either wanting to be complete and whole, or completely shattered. Not in between.


And this. This I can connect with as well.
What drags me down is trying and getting no "pay back", getting no relief. I used to get "a release" in my MA. I'd accomplish some ridiculously impossible task, and this weight would lift up off of me. I'd have some "clear spaces" I called them.

When I graduated from my MA, there was a big party. I felt proud. I remember driving alone to the party in my car. It was chilly out. April and around 9pm. It was just a beautiful evening. There was so much good stuff to look ahead towards, or so I felt for a while. I looked into the dorms and the houses I passed and I saw into them, a warmth. *I saw the real world in those windows. I had hope. I felt some relief, some lifting of the bad DP/DR, but not enough. That "not enough" is so painful.*

But when I left for California the world really started sealing itself off.

You can fight the good fight. That's all you can ask of yourself.


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## turnIntoearth (Feb 26, 2007)

Dreamer,

What you said about the "acceptance" of those individuals at the seminar is remarkable. I suppose I hadn't thought about things in these terms. It is a definite conceptual shift to see DP as just a reality to work around instead of an adversary to fight against.

I think that staying mindful of such things is my biggest challenge. I can "accept" my state technically be OK with it, but it doesn't last for long. I need constant reminders to keep my mind in a good place. If I can _remember_, then the world is alright and it all fits together. But my memory is bad, I guess :?

All this makes me think of my mom. She was diagnosed with cancer and given a terminally short amount of time. How does one "accept" and "work around" something like this? Yet she fought and lived an OK life for 12 years before it killed her. That is a statistical outlier to possibly give hope to others who are stricken.



Dreamer said:


> You can fight the good fight. That's all you can ask of yourself.


Yep!


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Dear Dreamer, 
I just wanted to say that you DO try too hard. This DP isnt your fault. Its not all your responsibility to fix, you know? Part of the trap, the obsessive trap that makes DP possible, along with the biological predisposers (temporal/parietal abnormalities, genes, sub-clinical porphyria/toxicities) is that responsibility tread mill. To feel responsible to know the answer to everything, because if we dont, we'll get hurt by not knowing. So we obsess. The responsiblity to MAKE our DP go away. So if we have it, we obsess about making it dissappear. The responsibility to be perfect, because its how we were raised. Imperfections will NOT be tolerated. Its all like the wheels in a mouse's cage. You run very hard, and the wheel goes around and around, but you never gain ground. Actually, the very action of running KEEPS YOU ON THE WHEEL AND THE WHEEL SPINNING. Take some time out from DP/DR. Tell it your taking a day off from the life its given you, the choices it tells you you have to choose from. Go out and do something impetuous. Talk to someone that would be out of character for you. Go somewhere that would be out of character. Eat something that would be out of character. Yeah, I think that eating really naturally would reduce your anxiety, so if eating healthily is out of character, great. If you already do this, go eat some junk food. God will still love you. We'll still love you. Just get off the treadmill your Mom told you you had to be on, to be perfect, to be everything to everybody. Just relax. You have yet to really experience a true childhood or being a teenager. You need to, and you need to trust that you dont have to be prepared for all contingencies, that the Man Upstairs is going to protect you even if you think you've made a silly choice. Live,love, and life will follow.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Catharsis (Jul 2, 2006)

monnolith said:


> ...
> What I'm trying to say here is, yes, it is easy to play the victim, but people who play the victim rarely seek to cure or help themselves, because of the attention they get, and the leniency the experience. To see DP as a justification for poor behavior is not being a victim, *but being a sociopath.*


What do you mean by this?


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## monnolith (Feb 21, 2007)

Sociopath: noun, An agressively anti-social psychopath.

This leads us to...

Psychopath: noun, Someone who suffers from emotional disorders with amoral or asocial behavior.

OK, then...

Amoral: adjective, Neither moral nor immoral; without moral sense.

and...

Asocial: adjective, Avoiding contact with others; selfish.

Therefore...

If a person uses a disorder to _actively_ neglect duties, people, expectations, or situations, then that person is exhibiting sociopathic tendencies, and is not, in fact, merely riding the wave of DP/DR. The key word here is "actively". Hey, I have DP, so I know first hand what it's like to not care or not have the motivation to do something, but I've never gone out of my way to avoid something by using the excuse of "I have DP, and so I deserve special treatment" (as the original question posed).

There are a lot of misconceptions about the actual meaning of the above words. Hollywood and other types of media have a way of skewing the intended meaning into something it is not.

For example, by definition, everyone of us on this forum is a *psychopath*, but how many of us are comfortable with that "title"? Again, I stress, _by definition_, we all are.

To call someone a sociopath is not the same as calling someone deranged or mentally unstable, it is merely addressing the tendencies that that person exibits. By saying "I have DP, go make me dinner..." it is indeed, sociopathic.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Firstly, *Homeskooled* thank you. I feel I try to just "be", just do anything for the Hell of it to "forget" the DP. And you do understand that "trying to fix it and feeling guilty" and where all of that came from.

But I swear to you, I've run out of energy that way. I think the most difficult thing for me now is to be social, and it is the most important thing for me. But I can't seem to find joy in anything.

Time takes its toll. And again, everyone here is unique. Every story is unique. So don't take my situation as the only outcome here.
Appreciated, Home.



monnolith said:


> Psychopath: noun, Someone who suffers from emotional disorders with amoral or asocial behavior.


Yes, amoral is the key word. I'd say a good number of us here are NOT psychopaths. A psychopath in general or a sociopath is some form of criminal.

"Victimhood" which some people MAY have here but I can't state that either would be simply using the DP as an excuse to not do daily activities, to skip work, to not be responsible.

A murderer, a burglar, a rapist, an embezzler is a psychopath or sociopath. Someone with a mental illness is not, unless they have BOTH problems.

This would be like saying people with diabetes are sociopaths. Well, there are some sociopaths who have diabetes. Some don't. And ALL diabetics aren't sociopaths.

Oh, you know what I'm saying.

Psychopath or sociopath -- I don't think that describes us here.

Now, if tomorrow, I ran over someone's dog and said, "Oops, I did that because I have DP." Well then I'd be a sociopath, with no compassion, guilt, sense of repsonsibility.

Again thanks Home, I'm at a LOOOOOOOOW spot.

Yes, there is part of me that says, let go of all the DP crap. My website, trying to get the word out. But it is the only thing I remotely have any passion about anymore. I have been trying to join a local chorus here. I can't sing. I don't have the energy to have the joy to sing. I used to quilt. I have no interest in it.

I like learning. But I do it for myself.

I'm not sure how or when I will find myself.

Take Care,
L,
D


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2007)

Monnolith, I found your post very interesting. I think though you mean to use the word 'anti-social' and not 'psychopathic'?



> "I have DP, and so I deserve special treatment" (as the original question posed).


I think this deserving of special treatment could be better classified as narcissistic and not psychopathic (although the two are closely linked).
It is the entitlement in this that makes it narcissistic and/or the emphasizing of how bad it is to live with DP/DR and with this making oneself special and unique ('noone suffers like me", "noone has it has bad like I do" etc) using that to not be accountable and thus placing themselves in a victim position. In this sense, it is narcissistic. Like some 'victim grandiosity complex', garnering sympathy, pity, attention and empathy etc.

I get the gist of what you are saying, I only think it is better to use the word 'anti-social' rather than the P-word for this board? I do see the anti-socialness among DPers. Could it be you see this as well and mean to term that as psychopathic?

I think the hallmarks of psychopathy are lack of empathy, no conscience (lack of remorse) and grandiosity. Interesting post, monnolith.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

DelMar said:


> Monnolith, I found your post very interesting. I think though you mean to use the word 'anti-social' and not 'psychopathic'?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Del Mar, I agree with the term narcissistic as being more appropriate a word, but this would be taking it to an extreme. I don't think I see this here. I see fear, I see frustration, I see people fearing they're losing their minds.

But anyone with ANY illness could have a "victim complex." Patients with cancer, heart disease, multiple hospitalizations for something, could have a "poor me" attitude. That is possible with ANY illness. I don't see individuals on this Board necessarily having any more or less propensity to having this than the population at large. Some people are "poor me" when they get the flu and want to be waited on hand and foot. Others leap out of a hospital bed and go straight back to work.

I will argue though, personally, I'd choose another illness over a mental/neurological one. One can use the strength of SELF, of a healthy SELF, an integrated healthy brain, to pull onesself through adversity.

*This concept of a "choice to remain mentally ill" only adds to the stigma of mentally ill people being "lazy, weak, having nothing wrong", using some "vague" feelings as an excuse for getting out of obligations. It also reinforces the concept held by many healthy people that mental illness doesn't even exist.*

That is a crying shame, and why research into DP for instance is at the bottom of anyone's funding list. Schizoprhenia -- clearly proven to be medical, Bi-polar, Depression, OCD, receive top billing in terms of research as people end up in the hospital as the result of these.

I'd say DPers are a strong group. Plugging along, even when they feel dead as a ghost.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

SPOILER ... severe DP and hospitalization.
--------------------------------------------------------

Don't scroll down if you don't want to read.

PS, there ARE people with severe chronic DP who DO end up hospitalized. Some people from this board have been. People I've known over the years. It isn't that common, but it can become that debilitating.

And I'll tell you, it's damned hard to get hospitalized on a psych ward. You have to be in pretty bad shape.

Some individuals are suicidal. They may have a "72 hour hold". Others simply can't function at all.

We have to remember the uniqueness of everyone here. The different combinations of disorders that may be present.

There have been a few times in my life, and I don't dwell on them, when I was in an ER in a complete dysfunctional state. A few other times, I figured I'd wait for my husband to come home ... couldn't even use the phone ... and take me to the hospital.

Fortunately this was never the case. The severity and intensity would lessen. I was equally terrified that "going into the hospital" meant "the end." It doesn't. Sometimes people need that help.

Sorry a tad off topic.


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## monnolith (Feb 21, 2007)

My definitions of "psychopath" and "sociopath" are in fact the verbatim meanings I pulled from the Webster's Dictionary of the American Language - and so I would argue that _its_ definitions are a tad more accurate than the misconceptions common to the "average joe". Again, I stress that Hollywood and other forms of media have skewed our perception of the actual meaning of words. I also don't really understand the connection between diabetes and sociopathic tendencies, but hey, maybe it's just me. The diabetics I know (3) all seem well-adjusted.

In the original question posed waaaay back on page 1, right at the top, it was opined that if DP makes a person unable to do certain things, then how far of a leap is it to say that DP can make that person use it as a catch-all excuse to not do anything. Read between the lines here - my "sociopath" example hold true to this... if you are aware of what a sociopath actually is, and not what the TV tells you it is.

To use another example: I know this man, an older man, who has his entire body tattooed with swastikas. He has them tattooed on his arms, his body, his legs, his back, his genitals, his everything. One could very well asume that he were some sort of nazi freak, holding true to WW2 German ideals. However, what you would not know, is that he is trying to change peoples MISconception of the symbol - as it is a chinese symbol of good luck that dates back several thousand years before the nazis ever saw it. Interestingly enough, he has come to an agreement with the Chinese government--> they have offered to purchase his SKIN after he dies.

Point is, is that if one continues to believe in something that is untrue in light of knowing otherwise, then one continues the cycle of misinformation and will only convolude the true meaning of a word, ideal, thought, or dream.

Long story short:

Does someone who has DP have the right to use it as an excuse to not do something? No.

Does someone who has DP have the right to feel disocciated and asocial? Yes.

PS: "antisocial" and "asocial" are two *very* different words. The latter means "not social", where as the former means "harmful to others"... DelMar posted that maybe I meant to say that DPers are "antisocial" - but that couldn't be further from the truth. How many of you reading this go out of your ways to harm others? I would hope that people with DP would only have "asocial" behavior...

I'm not trying to criticize here, I'm just trying to articulate my viewpoint on the _original_ post. Everything else is just semantics.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Monolith, I think we are miscommunicating here, but looking in Webster's at the definition of a mental illness is no better than looking to the media.
-------------------------------------------------------
Psychopaths and sociopaths are essentially criminals. I don't see DPers here as criminals. NOT being social, being withdrawn, that can be a result of DP. Some may feel they deserve pity, but none of that is criminal.

More clear psychiatric definitions as follows would describe ... and you could read about this stuff forever -- I love forensic psychiatry ... *psychopaths and sociopaths* are social pariahs. Someone feeling "sorry for him/herself" doesn't come near that. Anymore than Munchausen's or Munchausen by Proxy, where someone can pretend they have cancer to gain sympathy, or hurt their children to gain sympathy.
---------------------------------------------

*Psychopathy* (pronounced /?sa?ko??p??i/ in General American), not to be confused with psychosis, is a term derived from the Greek psyche (mind) and pathos (suffering), and was once used to denote any form of mental illness. (GOD HELP US)

* Currently, psychopathy is defined in psychiatry as a condition characterised by lack of empathy or conscience, and poor impulse control or manipulative behaviors.*

Though in widespread use as a psychiatric term, psychopathy has no precise equivalent[1] in either the DSM-IV-TR, where it is most strongly correlated with antisocial personality disorder, or the ICD-10, where it is correlated with dissocial personality disorder. Robert Hare is working to have psychopathy listed in the DSM-V as a separate disorder.

In current clinical use, psychopathy is most commonly diagnosed using Hare's Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R). Hare describes psychopaths as *"intraspecies predators who use charm, manipulation, intimidation, and violence to control others and to satisfy their own selfish needs. Lacking in conscience and in feelings for others, they cold-bloodedly take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret."[2] "What is missing, in other words, are the very qualities that allow a human being to live in social harmony."[3]*

1. Superficial charm and average intelligence.
2. Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking.
3. Absence of nervousness or neurotic manifestations.
4. Unreliability.
5. Untruthfulness and insincerity.
6. Lack of remorse or shame.
7. Antisocial behavior without apparent compunction.
8. Poor judgment and failure to learn from experience. 
9. Pathological egocentricity and incapacity to love. 
10. General poverty in major affective reactions. 
11. Specific loss of insight. 
12. Unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations. 
13. Fantastic and uninviting behavior with drink, and sometimes without. 
14. Suicide threats rarely carried out. 
15. Sex life impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated. 
16. Failure to follow any life plan.

In contemporary research and clinical practice, psychopathy is most commonly assessed with the PCL-R (Hare, 1991), which is a clinical rating scale with 20 items. Each of the items in the PCL-R is scored on a three-point (0, 1, 2) scale according to two factors. PCL-R Factor 2 is 
associated with reactive anger, anxiety, increased risk of suicide, criminality, and impulsive violence. PCL-R Factor 1, in contrast, is associated with extroversion and positive affect. Factor 1, the so-called core personality traits of psychopathy, may even be beneficial for the psychopath (in terms of nondeviant social functioning). A psychopath will score high on both factors, whereas someone with APD will score high only on Factor 2.[18]

In contemporary research and clinical practice, psychopathy is most commonly assessed with the PCL-R (Hare, 1991), which is a clinical rating scale with 20 items. Each of the items in the PCL-R is scored on a three-point (0, 1, 2) scale according to two factors. PCL-R Factor 2 is

*Sociopath*
Diagnostic Criteria (DSM-IV)

1. *Since the age of fifteen there has been a disregard for and violation of the right's of others, those right's considered normal by the local culture, as indicated by at least three of the following:* 
A. Repeated acts that could lead to arrest. 
B. Conning for pleasure or profit, repeated lying, or the use of aliases. 
C. Failure to plan ahead or being impulsive. 
D. Repeated assaults on others. 
E. Reckless when it comes to their or others safety. 
F. Poor work behavior or failure to honor financial obligations. 
G. Rationalizing the pain they inflict on others.

2. At least eighteen years in age.

3. Evidence of a Conduct Disorder, with its onset before the age of fifteen.

4. Symptoms not due to another mental disorder.

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I don't see this as a matter of semantics. I don't see DPers as sociopaths or psychopaths, any more as one can make a generalization about anyone who has ANY illness (that's why I used diabetes) -- someone with diabetes could feel "sorry" for themselves, use it as an excuse to avoid things, but that doesn't make THEM a sociopath or psychopath either.

A psychopath or sociopath is generally a criminal. Someone who drinks and drives hundreds of times with no concern for the welfare of others. Gang members. Pedophiles. Rapists. White collar criminals who embezzle from work, etc. Criminals ... many end up in the legal system. Huge difference in what we're discussing here.
IMHO.

Cheers,
D 8)


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## chris51 (Mar 21, 2005)

Homeskooled said:


> Dear Dreamer,
> I just wanted to say that you DO try too hard. This DP isnt your fault. Its not all your responsibility to fix, you know? Part of the trap, the obsessive trap that makes DP possible, along with the biological predisposers (temporal/parietal abnormalities, genes, sub-clinical porphyria/toxicities) is that responsibility tread mill. To feel responsible to know the answer to everything, because if we dont, we'll get hurt by not knowing. So we obsess. The responsiblity to MAKE our DP go away. So if we have it, we obsess about making it dissappear. The responsibility to be perfect, because its how we were raised. Imperfections will NOT be tolerated. Its all like the wheels in a mouse's cage. You run very hard, and the wheel goes around and around, but you never gain ground. Actually, the very action of running KEEPS YOU ON THE WHEEL AND THE WHEEL SPINNING. Take some time out from DP/DR. Tell it your taking a day off from the life its given you, the choices it tells you you have to choose from. Go out and do something impetuous. Talk to someone that would be out of character for you. Go somewhere that would be out of character. Eat something that would be out of character. Yeah, I think that eating really naturally would reduce your anxiety, so if eating healthily is out of character, great. If you already do this, go eat some junk food. God will still love you. We'll still love you. Just get off the treadmill your Mom told you you had to be on, to be perfect, to be everything to everybody. Just relax. You have yet to really experience a true childhood or being a teenager. You need to, and you need to trust that you dont have to be prepared for all contingencies, that the Man Upstairs is going to protect you even if you think you've made a silly choice. Live,love, and life will follow.
> 
> Peace
> Homeskooled


This is something we all should be doing. Homeskooled this hit a sore note with me. You almost made me cry! I saw so much of myself in this post. The responsibilty!!!!! It is so hard to let go!! I always thinkig " WHat if?" what if I let go of the responsibilty.

I also am recovering. But I think I play the victim role. I admit. I don't consciously do it. I don't tell myself "I can't do it because of my DP" When lfe siutations become tough and I must deal with it. I hide under my DP and wait for the storm to end. I always done this, going back to when I was a kid. (this is what I was referring to in my above post on responsibility) So, now my mind associates uncomofrtable life situations (or any stress/sadness or sometimes happy events) to feeling unreal (DP) I found the cycle and doing alot better stopping it. But the accepteance part is hard too. That I acceot I need to change it. That there IS something to change, I always hid with difficult life events. I can't hide anymore.

Sorry this turned into my own self realization post!!


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

I'm reading a really good book at the moment called The Drama of Being a Child by Alice Miller. Every day I have had to hold back from writing extracts that seem just so damn relevent to problems (I've had) which crop up on the site in other peoples' posts.

Just now I read a page on the being sick and the issue of psychotherapy patients being called "clients" instead, and how, actually, regarding yourself as a patient is a good thing if that is what you truely are. It says:

"Such a therapist may emphasize that his patients are for him always adult clients and not "children" - as if the feelings of a child were something to be ashamed of, and not something valuable and helpful. Occassionally one hears similar remarks about sickness, when a therapist is eager to consider his patients as healthy as possible; he may warn them against "dangerous regression", as if "sickness" were not sometimes the only possible way of expressing the person's plight. Many people have, afterall, been trying all their lives to be as adult and healthy (normal) as possible. They should be given support for the relief they feel at the discovery of this socially conditioned straightjacket of child-rejection and "normalcy-worship" within themselves. By giving it up they will get in touch with their true feelings. This is one of the reasons I prefere to use the word "patient" instead of "client. It was not until I experienced myself as a patient, as a suffering person, that I could find my way out of the trap of repressoin and help myself."


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

And I'm sorry to burst the bubble Monnolith - sounds like you want to be considered a psychopath or something - but the true mark of a psychopath isn't abstract or theoretical, but testably by brain scan.

A psychopath doesn't respond to emotion stimuli in the same way that other human beings do.

I for one feel very guilty over the possibility of being compared to members of the human race who are entirely collous and able to commit gross crimes against other human beings without a shade of remorse.

Psychopaths are as close as you can get to non-human because they have not the normal spectrum of human feelings in their baseline state.

If you search yourself and your life you should try and find why you draw this comparison.

...Like myself, did you grow up with a remorseless, evil parent who humiliated you without saying sorry or acknowledging your hurt?

Even my mother is not technically a psychopath, as she is schizophrenic, and does have feelings somewhere underneath but they were never available to her for her to make emotional connection in a healthy way.

That is different to dissociation anyway, more of a personality split, whereas dissociation is a narrowing of consciousness, a numbing of feelings for self-preservation. It's not malicious at its core. You could argue that it is due to having too many feelings and sensitivities to begin, or too much empathy, due to acute emotional sensitivity.

That is quite the opposite of being a psychopath, even if on face value, lack of human feeling is involved.


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## monnolith (Feb 21, 2007)

OK, I can see I'm not making myself clear - so let's go back to the original question:

(as posted by tIe)

"'Go make me dinner, I'm the one with DP after all...'

So I will submit to you this notion, which I know that I've dealt with first hand, as an open question: 
At what point does a legitimate psychological condition start to become just an excuse for one's behavior?"

Now I ask you, is the DPer in this example demonstrating acceptable behavior? No. Is this person acting selfish? Yes. Is this person caring about others? No. Is this person showing a lack of empathy? Yes. Is this person genuinely unable to make dinner him/herself? Maybe, maybe not - but then again, this person is:

- unremorseful
- unreliable
- egocentric
- poorly behaved
- rationalizing
- impulsive
- manipulative.

*Sheesh, I'm not calling DPers "sociopaths" or "psychopaths" - I am describing the behavior of someone who uses it to manipulate others in the example provided.*

That's why I said to "read between the lines" in an earlier post... I wanted you, the reader, to analyze the _behavior_ of a person who says: "Umm, I have this condition, see, and because of it, you *have* to do such-and-such for me - even though I'm perfectly capable of doing it myself..."

Again, I mention, that I'm not critisizing here, I am merely stating my opinion of what this person's behavior is comparable to. Now, if you somehow read that as me saying that I think _you_ are a sociopath because you have DP, then you would be correct... *if you acted the same way* as the person in the example. But of course, you DON'T act that way, do you?...

Splitting hairs grows bothersome. Bottom line: does the person in the example use his/her condition to manipulate others? Yes. That, my dear, by your own verbose detailings above, is psychopathic AND sociopathic.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2007)

monnolith said:


> Splitting hairs grows bothersome. Bottom line: does the person in the example use his/her condition to manipulate others? Yes. That, my dear, by your own verbose detailings above, is psychopathic AND sociopathic.


Like Miss_Starling I didnt get either what you menat exactly, monnolith, but now I do.
I myself would not use the word sociopathic for someone being only manipulative, but I see what you mean to say. I would add the list of factors you gave:



> - unremorseful
> - unreliable
> - egocentric
> - poorly behaved
> ...


And another one: unempathic (which is basically what someone is when they are being manipulative)

Then I would say yes, socio/psychopathic.

I meant 'asocial' not 'anti-social' btw, I used the wrong wording.


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## monnolith (Feb 21, 2007)

DelMar:

For over 30 years, I've struggled with being understood. Or more accurately: I've struggled with _not_ being _mis_understood.

Thank you.

Could it be that the average DPer's higher intellect makes it all the more difficult to allign with others (making DP self-perpetuating)?


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2007)

monnolith said:


> DelMar:
> 
> For over 30 years, I've struggled with being understood. Or more accurately: I've struggled with _not_ being _mis_understood.
> 
> Thank you.


That is a long time and you're welcome  Thank you as well for bringing up the subject you did. It made me think about certain things.



> Could it be that the average DPer's higher intellect makes it all the more difficult to allign with others (making DP self-perpetuating)?


It could be. I think it is a good question I don't have an answer to. 8)


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2007)

Dreamer said:


> DelMar said:
> 
> 
> > Monnolith, I found your post very interesting. I think though you mean to use the word 'anti-social' and not 'psychopathic'?
> ...


Agreed Dreamer. In my reply I was taking it to a more disordered level (like sociopathy/narcissism) in response to what Monnolith said. But agreed , I do not see it to this extreme here either.


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2007)

Narcissism = self love... is this the core definition which ever one assumes it means?


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## monnolith (Feb 21, 2007)

Oh darren, thy stirreth the pot.

I'm almost certain that few people view "Narcissism" with your (correct) definition. I think a more common (yet incorrect) interpretation of the word would be "self-centered". Narcissism, tho, is not being selfish, egotistical, or concerned solely with one's self, but being inordinately fascinated with oneself, vanity.

In the example of "I have a condition; and therefore, do such-and-such for me...", the person is not saying "I'm beautiful, admire me" - the person is saying "I don't care about you; I'm special and deserve, nay, _demand_ your servitude..."

One could go on for hours and hours debating how acceptable this person's behavior is, but when it all boils down, what's left is, well, a manipulative _jerk_ - regardless of whether this person has DP or not.

Darren, you are a smart cookie. Or is that "kooky"...


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