# dementia?



## medo (Dec 19, 2006)

Can DP/DR in any way be similar to dementia or cause severe memory loss and trouble concetrating that looks like dementia?


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## coco33 (Feb 18, 2005)

I suppose that the loss of memory is similar to that of Dementia, but i don't think they could be confused with one another. Dementia is a downward spiral whereas DP can come and go in waves. I could experience DP for a few hours when I'm under stress or thinking deeply about something that it bothering me but eventually it will go away if i can manage to pre-occupy myself with something else. The longest my DP lasted was 1 1/2 yrs which was extremely frightening as at the time thought i was never going to get out of it. I think that the main thing to remember is not to isolate yourself but to try and connect again with the outside world ( though i know this can be difficult at times). DP is like being stuck in time in a world you have created for yourself. Perhaps this is like what Dementia suffers experience.....I don't know. If it is then i really feel for them and hope i never experience Dementia.


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## Absentis (Jul 10, 2007)

A small neuropsychological study of 15 patients with Depersonalization Disorder showed a deficit in "certain measures of attention, short-term visual and verbal memory, and spatial reasoning."

"These deficits are hypothesized to have a deleterious effect on the short-term memory system; they manifest as deficits in the ability to take in new information but not in the ability to conceptualize and manipulate previously encoded information."

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/con ... /157/1/103

Dementia is a vague label attached to many diseases/disorders. However, dementia is a persistent and progressive decline in cognitive functions which is different than the effects of DPD, which tend to come and go with symptom severity.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

EDIT:

Not the same at all. My mother had Alzheimer's for about 15 years - a slow miserable decline which left her bedridden in the end; my friend's mother has some form of dementia. It's scary that most of my peers (late 40s) have one parent with some form of dementia. I spent a day with a friend who had to go get her Mom and take her 3,000 miles back to CA to put her in a Nursing Home.

The woman one day didn't remember whom her daughters were. She recognizes no one. One day, like my mother, she will forget who she is. She will not respond to her own name. Been there.

It is profoundly disabling. Ultimately the individual doesn't recognize family and friends, cannot care for him/herself (can't remember how to brush his/her teeth), gets lost in one's own bedroom. Cannot understand what a checkbook is and stops balancing it. Stops paying bills. Gets lost driving to the grocery store. Wanders out without clothing, in winter.

There are personality changes -- paranoia, combativeness.

The brain of the Alzheimer patient literally becomes damaged by tangles and plaques that destroy the communications between neurons.

Proufoundly different. Very much so.

And dementia isn't a "vague" term so much as it is not fully defined. There are many versions of dementia, many reasons FOR dementia. Medicine is trying slowly to clarify what is Alzheimer's, what is dementia due to TIAs, etc. When I got my mother to the hospital to figure what was up (they rule out EVERYTHING) -- she was tested for a brain tumor, she was given massive amounts of B12 (sometimes lacking in the elderly). EEG, CAT scan. A CAT taken in 1990 revealed minor structural changes in the brain. A CAT taken in 1992 revealed dramatic changes. Death of portions of the brain.

I find my "slow recall" and dicey memory, part of my anxiety. And concerns over many things that are unnecessary to worry about, I also attribute to my anxiety. I have GAD, some mood problems, and chronic DP/DR. And I've been this way since a child.

It's been 48 years or so, and I'm not demented yet. 8) And I hope to God I never get dementia of any form, or that there are better treatments in the future.

Dementia is a profound loss of cognitive function and physical function -- an inability to walk (one shuffles), one can fall and not "protect" themselves with automatic reactions such as putting their hands out -- they just fall. There are are also dramatic changes in the brain -- not normal changes as one gets elderly, it's just we are all living longer. People used to die at 70ish. Now we live to be 80, 90.

There are so many reasons for dementia they simply wish to sift through them and have correct diagnostic procedures, and better ways of treatment.

I knew my mother had Alzheimer's but it's a long story. I couldn't help her for some crazy reasons involving her attorney. Also, my mother locked people out of the house, including me. Thank God the car battery died. She stopped driving. She had no food in the fridge -- she did have some cleaning supplies stored in there. It goes on and on.

*DP is NOT DEMENTIA.*

Not the same. (Been there, done that, and it's Hell)
D


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## medo (Dec 19, 2006)

So in other words, having severe DR/DP causes severe but temporary memory loss. Just like a drunk dont remember what he did while being drunk it is normal for a DPd person to have trouble remembering things. It worries me because I have hard time remembering but at the same time Im very derealized panicky and full of fear and I hope it is normal at this point.

Anyone agrees?


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## HalfAPerson (Aug 22, 2006)

Dreamer said:


> I find my "slow recall" and dicey memory, part of my anxiety. And concerns over many things that are unnecessary to worry about, I also attribute to my anxiety. I have GAD, some mood problems, and chronic DP/DR. And I've been this way since a child.


I very much agree with Dreamer here. My anxiety wreaks havoc on my memory. If I lose focus that it's "just" anxiety I start thinking I'm totally losing it. This forgetfulness produces even more anxiety, and it can be a very vicious cycle.

When I was a kid I had a very good memory. Not exactly photographic, but pretty darn close. I was "smart" and had excellent retention. Since my *major* battles with anxiety began (high school age) my long term retention is shot to hell. I wish I'd gone to college when I was eight. 

I agree with your "drunk" analogy, medo. I think of my memory as like a short-circuit camera sometimes. It's not REALLY recording anything because I'm too trapped up in my head, or too anxious to let anything stick around for the long haul.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

My memory definatly suffered because of dp/dr, brain fog and anxiety. My attension span was also completly shot to hell. Sometimes my memory got so bad that i would forget which part of the house i had left once i made it to the kitchen.

But since my dp/dr, brain fog and anxiety have been gone my memory is pretty much perfect. Im sure im the only person in the world who got a better memory and attension span due to taking clonazepam. Although im sure that if anyone with a really bad memory loss due to dp/dr and anxiety got cured of it their memory would improve.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

*There is a crystal clear difference between having trouble remembering facts/figures, going into a room and forgetting why, as ultimately the memory is there. Again as Half noted, I have been anxious since I can remember, and started w/episodes of DP since I can remember ...

the result ... difficulty concentrating in class, flunking courses I was intelligent enough to pass. Later in life it has come to forgetting people's names, I stink at that. Also, I have a B.A. and an M.A. and I HATE when I don't remember some fact or detail from a famous book or film that a non-anxious person could pull out of a hat. Really ticks me off.

With DP, there used to be a definition in one of the DSMs, before the current DSM-IV, that said with DP  "recall seems difficult or slow". Interesting that is not part of the DP criteria now. That criteria is VERY specific, as for instance I had dizzy episodes before the DP and many here seem to have had the same.

But I believe that the worry (which people here calll obsession) is part of severe anxiety, the bad memory (again, part of anxiety). My diagnosis is clearly Generalized Anxiety Disorder, and I had MANY panic attacks as a young girl and have had others under stressful situations as an adult.

I also have chronic DP/DR.

But note:

1.  This is NOT dementia in any, way, shape or form ... I could find definitions and medical journals to explain the difference, but it's complicated.

Dementia is a deterioration of the brain ... all functions ... memory doesn't come back. The simple test (and one does this as one gets older, lol) is even if you can't remember it right away ... let go of it ... whatever you were thinking about, it may pop up 12 hours later. It's THERE. "Thank God, I'm not demented!"

In someone with dementia, the memory is completely GONE, and I mean GONE.

2. I have also never taken a rec drug, and again, my personal Dx is GAD, mood disorder, and chronic DP/DR. I've also been on clonazepam for believe it or not 20 years. My memory is really no different from what it was when I was a child.

When I have little or no stress, I think rather well. I do have trouble concentrating, say on reading, but I always did.

A rec drug induced DP state may be ... and I'm not saying it does this ... or rather MAY make the experience of memory recall feel different. I don't know. I have never experienced it -- not even pot. Never been drunk. I don't tolerate alcohol well. One drink and the DP/DR go through the roof.

Anxiety can mess up one's spontenaiety and recall, that is immediate recall that someone who isn't stressed wouldn't think twice about -- their memory is just "there".

Dementia is a disease of the brain, a decline, a physical morphological change, functional change, irreversible sp? change.

There is no comparison.

I think Half-a-Person has the idea.

And we are worriers, and we worry about worrying, and I think that is ANXIETY. DP at its worst for me, well, that is different as well -- you could throw me down a set of stairs and I wouldn't feel it. That is a perceptual failure somewhere in my brain. It feels neurological, but it is not dementia. Some neurons have gone bonkers, yes.

There are so many ways the brain can go wrong, we can't compare one disorder with another in this way.

Cheers,
D
End of Lecture. 8) Because I've been through the misery of seeing an Alzheimer patient's decline over 15 years.

When some of you get as ol' as I am, you will see the changes that come with the elderly ... true dementia .... you'll understand when you see it. You don't have it. DP is not dementia and it's not making you demented.*


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

http://www.neurologychannel.com/dementia/

*Overview, Types, Incidence and Prevalence, Risk Factors

Dementia refers to a loss of cognitive function (cognition) due to changes in the brain caused by disease or trauma. The changes may occur gradually or quickly; and how they occur may determine whether dementia is reversible or irreversible.*

Cognition is the act or process of thinking, perceiving, and learning. Cognitive functions that may be affected by dementia include the following:

Decision making, judgment
Memory
Spatial orientation
Thinking, reasoning
Verbal communication
Dementia also may result in behavioral and personality changes, depending on the area(s) of the brain affected.

Types

Some dementia is reversible and can be cured partially or completely with treatment. The degree of reversibility often depends on how quickly the underlying cause is treated.

Irreversible dementia is caused by an incurable condition (e.g., Alzheimer's disease). Patients with irreversible dementia are eventually unable to care for themselves and may require round-the-clock care.

Incidence and Prevalence 
An estimated 2 million people in the United States suffer from severe dementia and another 1 to 5 million people experience mild to moderate dementia. Five to eight percent of people over the age of 65 have some form of dementia and the number doubles every 5 years over age 65.

The prevalence of dementia has increased over the past few decades, either because of greater awareness and more accurate diagnosis, or because increased longevity is creating a larger population of elderly, which is the age group most commonly affected.

Risk Factors

*The greatest risk factor for dementia is advanced age.* Inheriting the genes associated with Alzheimer's or Huntington's disease is a risk factor. Untreated infectious and metabolic disease and substance abuse also can lead to dementia.


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## HalfAPerson (Aug 22, 2006)

Hmmm. I guess there are two different ways to look at it:

1) Anxiety can prevent certain information/experiences from being stored in my long term memory. This is tied in to problems with my attention span, concentration, etc. This can happen especially when I have racing thoughts. There's already too much going on for me to remember "new stuff."

2) Anxiety can prevent me from recalling information that IS stored in my long term memory, and can be recalled once I'm no longer anxious. For example, forgetting my phone number or how to get someplace I KNOW how to get to. Or like Dreamer's example...names. Ugh. I used to be very, very good with names. Not so much anymore.

Bottom line, medo: Try not to stress about this too much. I think it is very common for people with DP/DR and anxiety to have screwy memories or problems recalling information. Not that it's fun by any means, but becoming MORE anxious about it might only make it worse.


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## nemesis (Aug 10, 2004)

> Decision making, judgment
> Memory
> Spatial orientation
> Thinking, reasoning
> ...


Have all been negatively affected since my onset of DP and severe anxiety!


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

HalfAPerson said:


> Hmmm. I guess there are two different ways to look at it:
> 
> 1) Anxiety can prevent certain information/experiences from being stored in my long term memory. This is tied in to problems with my attention span, concentration, etc. This can happen especially when I have racing thoughts. There's already too much going on for me to remember "new stuff."
> 
> ...


Absolutely. Though memory, the actual study of memory is infinitely complicated, Half-A-Person (which you're not, you are WHOLE 8) indeed though it may not seem so) I think you have it.



nemesis said:


> Decision making, judgment
> Memory
> Spatial orientation
> Thinking, reasoning
> ...


Nemesis, every term in neurology, psychology, etc. can be misinterpreted in lay terms.

I am telling you, for example using my mother as an example:

*Decision making, judgement:* My mother signed her house over to me (which she would never do) when a shit lawyer tried to fool her into giving him money -- he was her first husband the slimeball. That is a MAJOR fault in judgement. Oh, she also forgot he was her first husband, though she was lonely, and knew he was a "friend" of some sort. Didn't remember she'd divorced my father either, lol.

I'd shoot that first husband, but I think he's dead. He made up a completely fake "legal document" my mother blindly signed, forgetting she had her own attorney (for FORTY YEARS in total).

*Memory* - my mother did not remember I was her daughter. And once she forgot, she never remembered who I was, ever again. MAJOR.

*Spatial Orientation* - my mother would stumble, be physically unable to carry herself properly, PHYSICALLY. She would fall down when no person her age should fall down in such a manner. She stopped driving as she couldn't coordinate the way she drove the car -- hands/feet/vision/pedals. One of these people who drive into the side of a building. Other examples and I've probably got this partly wrong, it's more complicated.

*Thinking, Reasoning* - my mother had a sump pump in the basement which would drain ground water during heavy rains, else the basement would flood. When it came on she'd get frightened. She would turn it off. THEN in a huge storm when the basement was filling with water, she would WALK IN THE WATER TO KEEP FLIPPING THE SWITCH on the pump. It's a miracle she didn't electrocute herself.

OMG when I think about this stuff! Oh, and when the basement was filling with water, she wouldn't remember what to do. She would turn the pump OFF and call frantically to say it was "broken"...ah, the sump pump company sold her FOUR new sump pumps. None of them were broken. Bastards.

*Verbal Communication* -- my mother could not carry on any conversation after a while. She had been a DOCTOR. She would say, "Well, in my day, when the girls, were, OOHHHHHH look at that, what is that? Do you think it's .... I don't ...(laughter) ... (silence) ....(fear) .... who are you? Are you good? Am I good? Where are they? Where are they? GO AWAY!

(and that was a good conversation and sometimes she'd hit me out of fear)

*Behavior, Personality* - when I took her into her Nursing Home my mother didn't know who I was. Thought I had stolen her house, her money, her car. She was completely paranoid about the people around her staring at her. She would start crying. She insisted on wearing her "work clothes" down to high heels daily as "she was going to work." She talked to the other patients (who didn't know what the Hell was going on) as though they were her clients. At other times as though they were doctors. She would sometimes walk around without her clothes on, forgot about that one -- did that in the hospital.

There were "good people" and "bad people" ... no one had a name. And again, she did not know who SHE was. If you called her name, she might or might not respond, depending on the time of day. As years went by, there was nothing left. No speech, no memory, no ability to walk, incontinence ...

This was NOT my mother. Her brain on a CAT scan was dying. It was atrophied, misshapen.

Y'all are driving yourself crazy. :shock:

PEACE Y'ALL. CHILL. It's just this freakin' DP and anxiety is all. Sigh, I hate it. But it ain't dementia. Also some people here also have bipollar, OCD, depression etc. Depression can kill your thinking processes.
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Oh, and this is brilliant, aside from not remembering how to balance a checkbook for 2 years (the accountant nearly passed out), she would pay bills over and over and over. And certain unscrupulous companies would take the money.

We found she had paid property taxes on the house 4 times in one quarter. She would pay. Send it in. Not make a record of it. NOT toss the bill as she was afraid of throwing anything out lest she forget what she was doing, OMG, then SEE the bill lying around and pay it again.

Oh, and this is helpful. When someone would come over to help, she'd lock them out. That included me, our housekeeper, her accountant, her attorney. She didn't know who any of us were.

She also once disappeared, and was declared a missing person. I had the police break into her house to find her. Couldn't find her. She had driven 50 miles to a hospital (with my cousin thinking she was having heart problems), I called all the LOCAL hospitals. No one mentioned this to me.

And on and on and on. And it is sad, it is funny, and it is horrible. And it is NOT DP. That isn't to say anxiety and DP don't affect everything we do including interactions with others, memory, trouble at work, in relationships etc.


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

dp is not the primary problem causing these symtpoms. Dp is only a symptom, just like the memory loss, lack of concentration/confusion, racing thoughts. You are focusing on th dp because it is the most scary. Anxiety/depression is the primary problem. When the anxiety/depression COMPLETELY goes away, the dp will go away also. The memory and concentration come back. Some here argue this, but only because they have adjusted to a chronic state of anxiety/depression.[/i]


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> but only because they have adjusted to a chronic state of anxiety/depression.[/i]


Yeah, we get so used to it that it actually seems normal after awhile.


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## EverDream (Dec 15, 2006)

Dreamer,

I know what you are talking about. My mom had it too and it got bad over the years, until she stopped functioning and commuinicating completley, which was 5 years ago.

Even though my memory is really scary, you can't even compare it to having dementia.

By the way, my mom was young when started having it- less then 50. It's rare, though.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

EverDream said:


> Dreamer,
> 
> I know what you are talking about. My mom had it too and it got bad over the years, until she stopped functioning and commuinicating completley, which was 5 years ago.
> 
> ...


Dear EverDream,
Very sorry to hear that, especially so early in life. So yes you understand.
Take Care,
D


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

dakotajo said:


> dp is not the primary problem causing these symtpoms. Dp is only a symptom, just like the memory loss, lack of concentration/confusion, racing thoughts. You are focusing on th dp because it is the most scary. Anxiety/depression is the primary problem. When the anxiety/depression COMPLETELY goes away, the dp will go away also. The memory and concentration come back. Some here argue this, but only because they have adjusted to a chronic state of anxiety/depression.[/i]


 I agree with you here. Dp/dr and also brain fog is a symptom of another illness usually anxiety, depression or both. When i went on clonazepam my anxiety disappeared and thats why my dp/dr and brain fog went away.

There are a few people on here who have tried just about every psychiatric med in the book and their dp/dr is still in full force. But i would bet that there is some physical cause for their dp/dr. Then again there may be a few unlucky people who have dp/dr as a stand alone illness.


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