# Idealism



## Rozanne

I was a bit depressed when I started this thread earlier....it was about the problem with idealism. I'm starting to think that one only considers ideals when the external environment doesn't provide what you are looking for....

Anyways, what do other people think about the relationship between religion and idealism? Is all religious life idealistic? Are all ideals religious?

Rozanne


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## Pablo

Im not sure if the external environment can ever provide what you are looking for in terms of complete happiness or peace, it obviously helps to have a fullfilling job, financial security and complete social and love lives, but many people have these and are still not happy. I believe in the Buddhist concepts that the more you have the more you are afraid of losing, so only a spiritual quest to become unattached and less identified will lead to happiness.

Many religions are all about idealism especially Christianity who believes in concepts like a person can be good without being evil, but I think such views are delluded because such an appraoch only leads to your darkness or shadow being repressed into your unconscious where it is ultimately more dangerous and evil (which leads to abusing priests). I think real religion or at least spirituality is about a search for truth or to put a better way it is about cutting away what isnt true and seeing what is left and transcending polarities such as good and evil, so in that sense it isnt about idealism as such it is simply about what is true and false which often involves confronting your own evil and darkness. But few of the main popular religions are about a search for truth so in that sense they are idealistic because they only deal with one side of a polarity.


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## Rozanne

I've started to think that personally I must have my mind focussed on a something positive in order to feel good. If I think about sad stuff too much it actually depresses me. That's what happened when I started this thread. I was thinking of things in negative terms and when I wrote about idealism I meant it in the sense of something good to which you will never match up to. There are probably other ways of defining idealism...like you say, an integration of the good and the bad within the self. I think that is an ideal but one worth aspiring for.


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## CECIL

I think Pablo's point about transcending the dichotomies of Western thought (i.e. that good and evil exist - they really don't) is important.

I think idealism is really about looking at the world through rose coloured glasses and denying the "bad" things that exist in it. It sets people up to fail because no-one can be a saint. We are all human beings and human beings make mistakes. That's how we learn.

When it comes down to it, an experience is only "bad" if you don't learn from it. Anything from which you learned is empowering and it is necessary to our growth.

So do away with the dichotomies of good and evil, right and wrong (Takes a long time to do this btw) and you will only be left with positive growth


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## Guest

Words of a wiseman =). My short-term memory is so so bad... I tend to forget "loads" of stuff... sO i tend to make the same mistakes again... although I don't tend to get bored all that easy because everything seems new to me.



CECIL said:


> an experience is only "bad" if you don't learn from it.


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## CECIL

ROFL nice one Darren 

In contrast I am well aware I'm making the same mistake again and that I really should change what I'm doing...but I just don't. Welcome to depression, lol.


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## Rozanne

[quote name="CECIL"]I think Pablo's point about transcending the dichotomies of Western thought (i.e. that good and evil exist - they really don't) is important.

Idealism and Realism. ....are these incompatible?

...What if you believe in some spiritual meaning to the life experiences you have? Can you then be a realist and idealist?

In some ways I buy into that, in other ways I wish I could raise the standards of my physical life, but that is where idealism is dangerous...though also necessary.

I think this thread is really about trying to do that but not knowing where I am headed...it's not a typical sort of depression but a realisation that I can choose what to do...am I rambling on here? Sorry. It's just that it was all about finding personal answers....that was what brought me to the original topic in the first place 8)

I am very confused about my life-purpose because I don't really know what I am doing here!


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## Guest

We are here to LIVE..........

Greg


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## CECIL

Im still the same person said:


> We are here to LIVE..........
> 
> Greg


/cheer 



> I think this thread is really about trying to do that but not knowing where I am headed...it's not a typical sort of depression but a realisation that I can choose what to do...am I rambling on here? Sorry. It's just that it was all about finding personal answers....that was what brought me to the original topic in the first place Cool
> 
> I am very confused about my life-purpose because I don't really know what I am doing here!


I am also very confused about my life purpose. I think for the last few years (ever since stepping out of the shadow of suicide and depression), I've been realising that I can create for myself whatever future I choose.

But then the problem becomes this: If I can do whatever I want, what do I want to do?

More existential angst 

I'm not too sure about Realism and Idealism. I tend to think of idealism as trying to uphold a set of beliefs. I guess it just depends what beliefs you are trying to uphold. There's nothing wrong with having a vision of how you want your life and the world to turn out. In fact having that vision is the only way we can make it happen.


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## Rozanne

Life is for living and living for spreading life. The rest is up to God...I mean, to choose one's life purpose is attempting to have control over something which is influenced by far too many factors, I've started to believe.

So I give up. Que sera, as the song goes. I'd do what I can when I can, and that's enough. I believe that's all that is expected of me.


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## Pablo

My belief used to be that life is about evolution but not just in the Darwin / Richard Dawkins sense but that the whole world is evolving to become more conscious of itself and more interconnected. On a personal level every human should do what they can to make themselves more conscious of who they are and their relationship in the world and that is their ultimate purpose.

But today I am not so sure because I look at the world and im not sure people are any more conscious or civilised than a few hundred years ago. On a psychological level every group or nation still needs an enemy to project their unwanted shadow emotions onto, so the West needs to hate Muslims and Muslims need to hate the West, just as the West used to hate communists in exactly the same way, nothing has really changed because we still live in a culture where we are encouraged to only value certain aspects of ourselves and other parts have to be repressed and then projected onto an enemy.

So I suppose I still believe that life is about making yourself more conscious, but I dont think it will happpen on a collective level for a long time if at all so im not very idealistic about it happening any time soon.


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## Rozanne

Hi. I now see your avatar in a ewe light, I mean a new light, Pablo.


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## Pablo

piRsq. said:


> Hi. I now see your avatar in a ewe light, I mean a new light, Pablo.


 :lol: , when I spoke of evolution I didnt mean the cross breading of species even if my avatar might suggest otherwise


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## Rozanne

I wonder what evolved humans would be like (if we ever got that far)?


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## Guest

Either more complex emotions? or no emotions at all (cyborgs)


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## Guest

Pure energy Rozanne, pure energy.

Greg


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## Rozanne

They would have emotions...surely.

I found this theory interesting (C.S.Lewis The Abolition of Man):



> Lewis criticizes modern attempts to debunk natural values (such as those that would deny objective value to the waterfall) on rational grounds. He says that there is a set of objective values that has been shared, with minor differences, by every culture "... the traditional moralities of East and West, the Christan, the Pagan, and the Jew..."; he calls this the Tao (which closely resembles Confucian and Taoist usage). (Although Lewis saw natural law as supernatural in origin, as evidenced by his use of it as a proof of theism in Mere Christianity, his argument in this book does not rest on theism.) Without the Tao, no value judgements can be made at all, and modern attempts to do away with some parts of traditional morality for some "rational" reason always proceed by arbitrarily selecting one part of the Tao and using it as grounds to debunk the others.
> 
> The final chapter describes the ultimate consequences of this debunking: a distant future in which the values and morals of the majority are controlled by a small group who rule by a perfect understanding of psychology, and who in turn, being able to "see through" any system of morality that might induce them to act in a certain way, are ruled only by their own unreflected whims. The controllers will no longer be recognizably human, the controlled will be robot-like, and the Abolition of Man will have been completed


Objective values of good and bad is what causes some human beings to think they are greater than others...more self-righteous even. I am not so extreme as to disown aesthetism (as Nietzche did). I think it has a wordly purpose for instance. But I have been questioning the role of morals in relation to an unconditionally loving God lately.

One thing I am inclined to believe is that certain morals do have an effect on the body/spirit in a positive way. That would make morality an objective thing...in the sense that it would effect the quality of your life.

The issue I have is with the idea that I may go to hell or be incarnated to something less than a human being, in the after life. It is somethng I have always rejected, as I find it hard to believe that we wouldn't all go back to God/Buddha-consciousness. It makes more sense to me that we would have one life, and not a series of incarnations. Rather, I am in this life, and I can just about stretch to believing in God, but taking on board the possibility of this being one of many lives...is not exactly a welcome concept. I don't like the possibility of eternal damnation. That just doesn't make sense. Why would God take some of the spirits and not others if He is infinitely loving? And I know it sounds a stupid question, but where would the universe go after it died? If the universe is going to dissolve into the God-mind at the end of it all (if there is an end)...then all of the universe, all matter, all spirits, everything would surely go back to the Father?

You may wonder why I'm adding this thing about life after death, well I suppose I'm thinking about it because it is the bigger context; the way I see my life purpose, and what makes an evolved man, depends on my philosophical life.

?? Any thoughts. I'm having a bit of a crisis over the importance of objective morals (in the eternal long-run).


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## Rozanne

Im still the same person said:


> Pure energy Rozanne, pure energy.
> 
> Greg


Cool.  I'll have an iced tea with that.


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## Guest

We began as pure energy.



Im still the same person said:


> Pure energy Rozanne, pure energy.
> 
> Greg


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## Guest

If we don?t evolve naturally, there?s a chance we would rid ourselves of emotions? or at least the negative ones (even though then are just as important as the positive ones.)



~Rozanne~ said:


> They would have emotions...surely.


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## Guest

Rozanne said:


> It makes more sense to me that we would have one life, and not a series of incarnations.


I agree, and even if we did keep coming back, unless we hung on to our memories from our past life we would be a different person anyway.
Ultimately we will become pure energy. I you keep practicing your meditation techniques you will be able to reach a level that will show you that we are, and will always be, energy. we are all connected.

Greg


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## Guest

There is nothing you can do to change that, nothing.


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## Guest

We all started as 1 and that is the only proof you need, the only thing that stops us from reaching this feeling of oneness again is our EGO.


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## Rozanne

And the distance between us  And superego (so I've read).

We're all in this together I suppose. That's one good thing.


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## Guest

In fact I will go so far as to say that it has been ego that has been fueling all of this negativity we have had lately. I someones ego gets bruised the push away, we need to come together.

And Darren, I wrote come, not cum :wink:

Greg


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## Rozanne

Superego causes a lot of rife on here also...as we all have so many opinions. Right and wrong can't be agreed by two individuals I don't think.
That's the thing with what C.S Lewis wrote...only the Divine surely knows what the score is, if there is an objective truth? I still go along with God being unconditional, for some reason, even if this world isn't. According to Wikipedia, Lewis said natural law was a reflection of supernatural law. I really do need to read these books to understand the point he was making.


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## Guest

Distance. We gauge distance/size on ourselves (ego) If something is smaller than our self we see it as small.
It is the same with time.
We arrive at all of our conclusions based on what we assume to be fact. well here is a fact, there are things that we are not going to be able to comprehend, important things that have been left out of the equation.
So to steal a quote from BB's signature, this is nothing more than a ready to wear fictional construct.

Greg


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## Guest

What are your thoughts on that?

Greg


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## CECIL

We aren't _becoming_ pure energy, we already *are* pure energy.

Why?

*Because all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration.*

If you look around at the world as it is today, you'll see so many patterns that have been continued since the beginning of human history. But you'll also see people waking up, becoming more aware. In this respect I agree with you Pablo - more and more people are becoming aware of themselves. More and more people are realising that all of their beliefs and behavioural patterns were adopted from their parents and their parent's parents. They are not our own, so why should we continue to live our life like this? Especially when it only leads to more pain.

This board and especially this forum is a perfect example of this. Also, have any of you ever wondered why it is that most of us are fairly young? There's a lot of people on this board that are early to late twenties. I am one of them. Most people don't "hit the wall" and realise that something isn't quite right in their life until "middle age", which is around 40-50. So why is it that we have "hit the wall" earlier than most?

Its because in general, people are "waking up" earlier and earlier. There is an energy of change about on this planet. People are trying to deny it for as long as they can, but its staring us all right in the face and we are becoming more aware of it.

I don't know for sure, but I feel that in the very near future there's going to be a big change. Suddenly people won't be able to deny what they've been feeling all along. Collectively we'll stand up and say "What the fuck are we doing here? Something isn't quite right!". And that's when things will start changing rapidly.



> Distance. We gauge distance/size on ourselves (ego) If something is smaller than our self we see it as small.
> It is the same with time.
> We arrive at all of our conclusions based on what we assume to be fact. well here is a fact, there are things that we are not going to be able to comprehend, important things that have been left out of the equation.
> So to steal a quote from BB's signature, this is nothing more than a ready to wear fictional construct.


Exatly my point. We have collectively adopted this idea of what reality is. Its been passed down through the generations. But it is not an accurate picture. Personally I believe that a lot of people develop DP/Depression/Anxiety simply because their own innate nature does not correspond to what we are told about the world. But instead of following our own hearts, we lock those feelings deep down and we deny that they exist. Then we put on a mask and go about our day as though nothing is wrong. In fact, I believe that most people in the world do this.

We are just a little bit different than most, because we are more sensitive to lying to ourselves. Whatever the reason, we've chosen not too accept the current state of the world, yet we feel paralysed because we don't know how to change it.

Well there's good news. We are the last of a dying breed. Or looking at it another way, the first of a new era for humanity. There's already kids coming through now that are totally immune to this brain washing that has happened for milennia. They simply will not deny their own beliefs and their own spiritual understanding of the world.

I believe its our responsibility to heal ourselves and in doing so, heal the world. Its not a matter of developing super powers, its a matter of clearing out all of the belief systems that have clouded our vision. Its a matter of returning to the innocence of being a child. Its a matter of reclaiming our lost abilities and memories from when we were children.

Cut away the bogus ideologies we've adopted over the years and begin living true to ourselves (which coincidentally is living true to "God" simultaneously).

But anyway, that's enough of a rant from me 

/rant


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## Revelation_old

CECIL said:


> We aren't _becoming_ pure energy, we already *are* pure energy.
> 
> Why?
> 
> *Because all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration.*


Ahem,

"Today a young man on acid realized that *all matter is merely energy condensed into a slow vibration* , that we are all one consciousness, experiencing itself subjectively, there's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, in which is an imagination of ourselves." - TOOL - Third Eye. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_band


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## CECIL

WOOT! Someone who picked the quote 

Actually, Tool ripped it off of Bill Hicks, who used it in his awesome comedy routines 

Also, I think its "Life is only a dream and we're the imagination of ourselves", but I could be wrong.


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## Revelation_old

Best band on earth. (though, i disagree with their lyrics in that song  )


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## CECIL

Revelation said:


> Best band on earth. (though, i disagree with their lyrics in that song  )


Agree with the first part. Agree to disagree with the last bit


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## Guest

CECIL and REV said:


> We aren't becoming pure energy, we already are pure energy


Yes but at the moment we are energy with an ego.
Not pure.

Greg


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## Guest

> the Id, Ego, and Super-Ego are the divisions of the psyche according to psychoanalyst Sigmund Freud's "structural *theory*."


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## Guest

Whats your point?


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## Guest

Freud's theory is a ?theory? and not a fact. We may not even have an ?unconscious mind?. I find anything hard to believe in till it?s 100% fact (of course nothing can be 100% in this world? it tends to be 99.8%).

Edit: I meant "*subconscious*".


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## Pablo

Darren said:


> Freud's theory is a ?theory? and not a fact. We may not even have an ?unconscious mind?. I find anything hard to believe in till it?s 100% fact (of course nothing can be 100% in this world? it tends to be 99.8%).


The unconscious is a common experience have you never seen hypnosis, I know that we have an unconscious because I have experienced it through both drugs and meditation. I had one drug experience where my conscious mind was completely flooded with repressed psychic material which was stored in my unconscious. Surely you must accept that an ego exists Darren, you must see it day in day out in almost everyone you encounter, I suppose it is difficult to define what an ego is because many different people have different definitions but I find it easy to recognise in people these days, but I do think that Freuds theory of id, ego and superego is too simplisitc and infact the psyche has many different parts not just three.



Im still the same person said:


> CECIL and REV said:
> 
> 
> 
> We aren't becoming pure energy, we already are pure energy
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but at the moment we are energy with an ego.
> Not pure.
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...

I agree in that I think that it is the ego which prevents the pure energy from flowing properly thorough us, I believe that all psychological tension is conflict between different ego polarities and psychological tension is the source of all body tensions and blocks which prevents the pure flow of energy. Greg do you think that the ego is the same thing as "original sin" that Christians go on about


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## Pablo

~Rozanne~ said:


> ?? Any thoughts. I'm having a bit of a crisis over the importance of objective morals (in the eternal long-run).


I like the Buddhist approach to morals ahead of the Christian because the Buddhist approach says that you have a choice to obay certain moral rules but you wont be punished if you dont obay them by some hell or judgement but you are more likely to suffer yourself if you dont obay them so it is in your self interest to follow a moral code. Then after a time when you get to a place of great compassion for yourself and other people then morals take care of themselves because you wont do anything to harm other people because you have great compassion for them.


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## Guest

Humm you have a point Pablo. My councillor doesn?t totally believe in Freud?s theory and he told me why which made much sense to me. So of course this changed how I viewed Freud?s theory. The only problem now is, I can not recall what my councillor said that changed my view on the matter (mite be due to my dyslexia).

I only commended on this thread because I?m fed up of being not only being emotionally disconnected but also social disconnected? I find it so hard to make sense of the words you guys write? and it?s getting to me? it?s the reason I act mostly like a clown on here because then I can have fun with people who can relate to what my world feels like in some respects.

Thanks for your reply any how.

Darren.


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## Pablo

I dont think many psychologists today totally believe in Freud's theories either, a lot of his theories have been built upon and changed since he died. Most of Freuds patients were middle class Christian Austrian Women so it is not really surprising that he thought that repressd sexual desire is the cause of neurosis, but if he were alive today and he saw modern people as his patients he would probably come to a different conclusion.


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## Rozanne

I just want to say thanks for some of the stuff written on this thread about the oneness of things and a new age of self-awareness and interconnectedness.

By the way I can't remember if I wrote about Bill Hicks the other day or not...but I watched that show on Saturday and apart from the Goatboy sketch...it was generally very funny. OK I admit it, Goatboy is also quite funny, just a bit crude.


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## CECIL

"More, more father! We are your goat children! We too like to lay in the forest and wait for young virgins to come!" :twisted:

Yeah he is pretty rude but that's what I like about him. Wasn't afraid to say what needed to be said. Wasn't afraid to offend to make his point.

I agree with Pablo about compassion and morals - if you love unconditionally you can do away with your morals because you won't do anything to hurt anyone. And if you do then you will work to heal the wound and everyone will be forgiven.

Also, about the ego: I tried for a long time to "Crucify the ego", but it doesn't really work. It is beneficial to degrade it to a certain point, so that you can experience things outside of the 3D world, but the ego is necessary to keep us anchored to this world.


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## Guest

An interesting point... allows us to be "connected" with other people.



CECIL said:


> ego is necessary to keep us anchored to this world.


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## Cam

How would you define the EGO?

BB


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## Pablo

CECIL said:


> "More, more father! We are your goat children! We too like to lay in the forest and wait for young virgins to come!" :twisted:


Who said that? sounds like an interesting guy 



> Also, about the ego: I tried for a long time to "Crucify the ego", but it doesn't really work. It is beneficial to degrade it to a certain point, so that you can experience things outside of the 3D world, but the ego is necessary to keep us anchored to this world.


Both developmental psychologists and most eastern spiritual traditions say that when we are born we are born without an ego at all, babies have no sense of seperation or a sense of "I" and their sense of self is completely merged with their mother and their environment, so their mother or their bed are just as much "me" as their own bodies, which is why you often see babies biting themselves as they are only just starting to identify that their body is "me". So in a way you can argue that the ego is as much a learned part of you as many of your habits or thought patterns because we were not born with an ego but you develop your ego as a child largely as a survival mechanism in order to be able to adapt and survive in the world when you are not in a position to look after yourself and if something is learned it can also be unlearned.

Many religions and traditions try to crucify the ego and some even see it as the devil but my view is that you have to respect it and do your best to balance it before you can do anything about transcending it or going beyond it because it serves a very valuable purpose in your development. I also dont think you can attack the ego like you would a brick wall, I suspect that love is the only thing which can bring you out from it.


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## Rozanne

Ego...I have a rough idea but it is a word that has been used in many different ways by different people. The ego is a natural part of a dual world (so I've heard) and it does cause trouble if you don't see yourself as separate sometimes. The positive side is personal autonomy and sense of space. That's according to my ideas of what "ego" stands for.


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## Guest

My view of one?s ?Ego? is the mask every single human being wears to avoid exposing their weakness. Although for a long time I allowed mine to be seen because I lacked technique to hide it.


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## CECIL

Yes I agree with that idea Pablo. And really, we are all one and we are all connected, so the ego is not necessary in that context. However in terms of human beings on this planet, the ego is a necessary tool of evolution, because we needed to experience ourselves as seperate. But that's another story.

The ego is also what anchors us in this 3 dimensional reality. At least for now. It is the part of you that exists entirely within 3D space-time and is only concerned with what happens within that 3D reality.

Another idea is that it is like a personality construct - i.e. not a "real" part of you but a part that can simply "fall away". But I guess that's another story as well. Try taking a heroic dose of mushrooms if you want to experience "Ego death" (I never have - I'm too much of an arrogant prick  ).

And that quote was from Bill Hicks, since we mentioned him in the thread. He was an awesome comedian in the late 80's/early 90's. Definately check him out


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## Rozanne

I can't imagine what the ego "looks like"> that's why I can't define it.

It's a hard question. All I know is that there are different uses for the word:

- western psychology
- buddhist philosophy
- coloquial use

The rest is beyond me. I tend to think of things in terms of the mind and the body....I guess that the "person"...the discreet self is ego according to buddhism. That I suppose would include the body, psychology...everything.

(Clock smilie)...it says on Wikipedia that Freud thought the structures of the psyche were

Id= unconscious
Ego= mostly conscious
Superego= partly conscious

I find it easier to understand it in terms of

Id = what compels the person towards the animal
Ego = the socially aware and personally aware self
Superego = the moral judge

...and not whether things should be conscious or not..

I don't think it is anywhere near as sophisticated and universal as the work of Jung but useful in some respects.

I wondered if it were possible that some people have overactive or overly influential "superegos".

When I was a kid I used to be quite aware of the way people were acting around me, it was as though I had an over-developed conscience....and really believed that I had to prove myself to God in some way....to "be a good girl". I decided I wanted to be a good person and serve the community in some way, like it was my responsibility or something when I was about 5....then when I had all those nightmares my mum told me it was because I was "a naughty girl" and that there was no way of being seen to be good...I started to do thing that were bad and suffered greatly with guilt. Come to think of it I was 4 years old..I remember it clearly. I stole my mother's tablets and took them on the stairs. (Oh God I'm starting to cry inappropriately in the library).

This resulted in my existential depression I think. It lifted the day I started to believe in morality as important to spirituality as an adult....

I'm a bit confused over the importance of it, objectively, but I do think it is important to "be good".


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## Pablo

~Rozanne~ said:


> I wondered if it were possible that some people have overactive or overly influential "superegos".


This is *the problem* in my view, I see an overly influential "superego" certainly in myself and in large proportion of the people who post here

I am a big believer in modern ego state psychology and I can see in myself a harsh critical "parent" part of my mind which is the part of me which is responsible for repressing and beating up my vulnerable "child" parts. This is the fundamental cause of all mental illness in my opinion, where an adult or superego ego state is in conflict with a child part of your ego, so in effect you are in a state of civil war in your mind.


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## CECIL

That also resonates very strongly with me Pablo. I think that superego for me was a combination between parents and all of the bullies I've met over my life.

Its sole goal was to stamp out any evidence of the feminine/emotional/intuitive aspects of my psyche. Not only that, but I think a lot of the self harm I did over the years was re-enacting that battle. i.e. Right hand (Masculine, will, material side) cutting left forearm (Intuitive/Feminine side but also the body part that symbolises self expression). In a way it was my internalisation of the torturers in order to continue torturing myself in their absence. (Torturers being a strong word for it, but that's what I built it up to in my mind).

One interesting side effect when I was going to therapy was that I internalised my therapist's voice as a sort of mediator. So when my super ego told me that I was worthless, that mediator voice would chime in and help me see it in a slightly different light. That was pretty cool in hindsight


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