# Intense depersonalization "seizures"



## brujita_linda (Jun 12, 2011)

I've posted about these episodes a few times on the forum, but they are no longer searchable under my content, so I am a bit loathe to recount them. But... ever since I was a child I have had brief, severe episodes of depersonalization lasting about 45 seconds or so. They come on seemingly without trigger and are proceeded by an aura, a sudden dread that "the thing" is about to happen. The thing is the absolute most horrifying experience I have had, and almost impossible to put into words. It is just an intense feeling that I do not exist, I am not real, I am not my body.( I've also suffered derealization at various times, but the quality and texture of the experience is very different. The derealization lingers, and while it's painful, I'm able to function and fake my way through it.) These brain spasms, whatever they are, usually dissipate quickly and with no residual effects. I think I average a few per year, but I've never tallied them.

I don't normally sweat them, owing it to some deja vu-like misfiring. I have even considered they might be simple partial psychic seizures, though lately I'm thinking they may actually be psychogenic seizures, as recently they've been triggered by excessive contemplation of my physical form (in the past they would sometimes just come out of nowhere, but lately the ones I've had have all been a. after looking at a mirror, b. after binge drinking). If you are familiar with the concept of semantic extinction, it is almost like that but with one's own body. But it goes beyond a realization of absurdity to a deep sense of estrangement.

Blah anyway, I was drawn back to the forum because I've had two in as many weeks, and there's that nagging fear that it's getting worse & I'm really going to lose it this time. I've felt uneasy & afraid to look at myself or think of my body/name/identity all day. My grandfather and father were both schizophrenic & I am just under 30, so even though I know this is nowhere close to schiz prodrome & I have explained these episodes to my pdoc and he says "probably everyone gets stuff like that, they just don't say so" and he would be "highly surprised" if I developed schizophrenia, it is always a fear. And even if it's not schizophrenia, but rather, say epilepsy, I don't want to start having these episodes with greater frequency/duration. I really need to stop drinking so much is the bottom line as I don't think it's helping ANY of the mental issues I might have. I guess what frightens me is the utter realness and salience of the experiences & my fear that I might actually start believing what they have to say: that I am not really "me," that I am not of the body, etc. Many religious and philosophical traditions do hold those ideas, so I suppose one could square and earthly existence with them & not worry about being delusional, but I'd rather come to such thoughts through contemplation/meditation than violent seizure of my identity. And am agnostic and a very sensual person. I like to be grounded in my surroundings & in some kind of consensual reality (don't we all).

Anyway, sorry this is so rambling and disorganized. It is super-late & I am also eating stinky Roquefort cheese, which is somewhat distracting me from my composition.


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## brujita_linda (Jun 12, 2011)

I contradicted myself re: triggers. To clarify: historically, the episodes would come on without any known trigger; recently they seem to happen after I am looking at myself in the mirror (the wages of vanity!) I also wonder how related these experiences are to those of people with body and gender dysmorphia.


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## lautje (Mar 4, 2011)

Finally I found someone who had it to. 
I did always get that when I was a child and think about life. 
And now I'm afraid of it so it happens all day. 
its sooooo scary. I'm afraid it won't go away any more. who nows what this is and can it go away? .


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## miabella (Jun 19, 2013)

It sounds to me like just moments of sudden intense panic... I mean, on this forum you can tell that DP/DR manifests differently in people. Some have it severely 24/7, some are 100% usually but have episodes of DP/DR that last from a week to months, some have manageable DP/DR that just gets bad with built up stress... maybe your just comes in VERY concentrated bursts?


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## lautje (Mar 4, 2011)

yes but i got it chronic because of that attacks. I got scary of them. 
I recovered before but now again it feels like I have it forever.
Out look like panic attacl now, but when I was a child it always comes when I thought about life. 
For me it feels like there something wrong with my brain. 
Don't know how its for you brujita?


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2013)

If you are uncertain if you are having seizure activity, you should go to a neurologist. You can't diagnose yourself or be diagnosed by anyone here.

*One thing about complex partial seizures is they are accompanied by some "loss of consciousness" -- that is amnesia for the event, and also, minor seizure like movements.*

I have a friend who suffered a severe head injury from a bicycle accident. He has started having complex partial seizures. He recently had an episode where he left his apartment to go to a coffee shop and thento catch a bus.

1. At some point he found himself trying to get into someone else's apartment, thinking it was his

2. He recalls looking at his backpack and thinking it was not his and was going to leave it but decided to pick it up as it might have been lost by someone else.

3. A friend of his who has seen this activity before, could not get his attention

4. The only reason he knows this happened were some "dream like" recollections that were corroborated by his friend.

Worst case scenarios were having this type of seizure whle driving and causing a serious car accident (he can no longer drive or ride his bike)

At other times he has spoken on the phone while having a CPS and cannot be understood, he talks gibberish.

What is VERY interesting is he is "dissociating" -- and he and I can somewhat understand each other's problem. I have a general sense of his seizures and he has a vague understanding of my DP. But we do NOT have the same problem.

His head injury literally involved brain surgery where his brain matter was operated on. He also happens to be bipolar. He would rather be bipolar than have the brain injury which has also killed his short-term memory. He still has a wonderful attitude, but has recently been suicidal over all of these losses.

I would go to a neurologist. No one here can diagnose this.

Please do that to give yourself peace of mind.

Psychiatric illnesses have been mistaken for neurological, and neurological for psychiatric.

Take Care,

D


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## lautje (Mar 4, 2011)

the problem is that its very difficult her in Holland. 
But the seizures are deffenatly something from dp. 
Its the dpchronic feeling but then 1000 times worse. 
its like your to conscious of your own I . Out takes only few seconds. 
But because I got scared of it, I got chronic dp/dr and the seizures come more times a day.


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## brujita_linda (Jun 12, 2011)

Miabella, no it's not intense panic. I am in treatment for panic disorder & general anxiety, and it's an entirely different experience than what an intense panic attack looks like for me. I know some people do have dissociation with panic attacks, but strangely, I don't. Disorientation, but not dissociation. Surely these things are all connected, but I differentiate between how I experience panic attacks, chronic derealization & this intense depersonalization on a phenomenological level. They all have very different "flavors," if that makes sense.

Dreamer, that's why I said simple partial seizure, since there is no loss of consciousness. Of course I can't self-diagnosis nor do I expect anyone else to diagnosis epilepsy on a message board  That was more just me thinking aloud, though I've started to think maybe, like, I said, these are psychogenic seizures---seizures that don't owe to abnormal electrical activity in the brain, but to psychological causes. Then again, I did have a head injury around the time these started so who knows?? Being uninsured in the US, I can't really go to a neurologist, but your point is well taken. What your friend experiences truly sounds hellish.

To Lautje, I don't know what to say expect that we may be experiencing the same thing, and it IS awful. You say it's gotten worse because you are scared, and like almost any condition medical, psychological or somewhere in between, stress makes it worse. The only advice I can give is try to ride the attacks out. I usually have an image like a beautiful tree or something that brings me comfort that I focus on until it passes. Have you sought any professional help for your symptoms?


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2013)

From the epilepsy foundation:
http://www.epilepsyfoundation.org/aboutepilepsy/seizures/partialseizures/simplepartial/

"*People who have simple partial seizures do not lose consciousness. However, movement, emotions, sensations and feelings can be affected.*
However, some people, although fully aware of what's going on, find they can't speak or move until the seizure is over. They remain awake and aware throughout. Sometimes they can talk quite normally to other people during the seizure. And they can usually remember exactly what happened to them while it was going on. However, *simple partial seizures can affect movement, emotion, sensations and feelings in unusual and sometimes even frightening ways.*

*Movement: *

Uncontrolled movements can occur in just about any part of the body. Eyes may move from side to side; there may be blinking, unusual movements of the tongue, or twitching of the face.

Some simple partial seizures start out with shaking of a hand or foot which then spreads to involve an arm or a leg or even one whole side of the body.

*Emotions:*

A sudden feeling of fear or a sense that something terrible is about to happen may be caused by a simple partial seizure in the part of the brain which controls those emotions.

In rare cases, partial seizures can produce feelings of anger and rage, or even sudden joy and happiness.

*Sensations:* All five senses-touch, hearing, taste, smell and sight-are controlled by various areas of the brain. *Remember that an episodic feeling of fear or other feelings is usually not caused by a seizure.*

Simple partial seizures in these areas can produce *odd sensations such as a sense of a breeze on the skin; unusual hissing, buzzing or ringing sounds; voices that are not really there; unpleasant tastes; strange smells (also usually unpleasant); and, perhaps most upsetting of all, distortions in the way things look.*

*For example, a room may suddenly seem narrower or wider than it really is. Objects may seem to move closer or get farther away. Part of the body may appear to change in size or shape.*

*If the area of the brain involved with memory is affected, there may be disturbing visions of people and places from the past.*

Sudden nausea or an odd, rising feeling in the stomach is quite common. Stomach pain also may, in some cases, be caused by simple partial seizures.

Episodes of sudden sweating, flushing, becoming pale or having the sensation of goosebumps are also possible.

Some people even report having out of body experiences during this type of seizure. Time may seem distorted as well.

In many ways, our usual, comfortable sense of familiar things and places may be disrupted by a simple partial seizure.

*Well-known places may suddenly look unfamiliar. On the other hand, new places and events may seem familiar or as if they've happened before, a feeling called déjà vu.*

Simple partial seizures can also produce sudden, uncontrolled bursts of laughter or crying."

Have to run. Hope this helps. Have more to say ... but ..... off I go!


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## brujita_linda (Jun 12, 2011)

Good to hear from someone else.

Dreamer, you reminded me, I read somewhere that one way to distinguish a true epileptic seizure from a psychogenic one on a clinical level is to track eye movements. Once again, I do realize it's foolish to self-diagnose such things. My episodes are infrequent and brief enough that I don't think it's an emergency, I was just feeling scared yesterday, and no doubt uneasy from my hangover.


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## lautje (Mar 4, 2011)

vice : its soooooo, difficult not to think about it.
its not a panic attack, but its like a panic attack. 
You get afraid of the attacks so they will come more and then I feel like I only want to stay in bed
and nothing else.

dreamer : I really don't think that they are epilepsy, because I can call then up. 
If I'm thinking about it a lot en get scared then it comes.


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## forestx5 (Aug 29, 2008)

An EEG is the clinical way to differentiate psychogenic from epileptic seizure.


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## brujita_linda (Jun 12, 2011)

Sorry, I am about to come off ass the board's biggest asshole, but by clinical diagnosis I meant:

Noun[edit]

*clinical diagnosis*


The estimated identification of the disease underlying a patient's complaints based merely on signs, symptoms and medical history of the patient rather than on laboratory examination or medical imaging.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/clinical_diagnosis

I mentioned it just because Dreamer had cited some of the physical signs that accompany epileptic seizures, and it reminded me of this thing about eye movement:

http://www.jfponline.com/Pages.asp?AID=4554


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## brujita_linda (Jun 12, 2011)

But you are right, I would definitely want an EEG before I accepted a firm diagnosis re: epilepsy. Sometimes I just get sidetracked by my fascination with different findings. And there is something to be said for ruling things out clinically before ordering up expensive tests.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2013)

lautje said:


> vice : its soooooo, difficult not to think about it.
> its not a panic attack, but its like a panic attack.
> You get afraid of the attacks so they will come more and then I feel like I only want to stay in bed
> and nothing else.
> ...


*Lautge, you are not the boards biggest asshole, LOL. Believe me there are a few people who clearly are and we know who they are. But there is rampant self-diagnosis here, and that is not a good idea*.

As forestX says, the only way you can figure seizure activity is with an EEG.

Here is COMPLEX partial seizure, vs. SIMPLE (which I posted above.) IMHO, no one here is having either of these. I myself had an EEG years ago (they are more sophisticated now) -- there is no seizure activity. *I do not see this as a seizure, but obviously something is changing in the brain -- circuitry, who knows. DP/DR in and of themselves are NOT seizures.* If you think you are having a seizure you need to see a doctor - it is VERY important -- a neurologist. And I'm sorry someone said they have no insurance for that.

*COMPLEX PARTIAL SEIZURES *-- what my friend with the severe head injury has -- and this are dangerous:

(Again, from the epilepsy foundation)

http://www.epilepsyfoundation.org/aboutepilepsy/seizures/partialseizures/complexpartial/

First Aid for Complex Partial Seizures
• Do not restrain the person.
• Remove dangerous objects from the person's path.
• Calmly direct the person to sit down and guide him or her from dangerous situations. Use force only in an emergency to protect the person from immediate harm, such as walking in front of an oncoming car.
• Observe, but do not approach, a person who appears angry or combative.
• Remain with the person until he or she is fully alert.

*"During a complex partial seizure, a person cannot interact normally with other people."*

*Complex partial seizures affect a larger area of the brain than simple partial seizures and they affect consciousness.  During a complex partial seizure, a person cannot interact normally with other people, is not in control of his or her movements, speech or actions; doesn't know what he or she is doing; and cannot remember afterwards what happened during the seizure.  Although someone may appear to be conscious because he or she remains standing with their eyes open and moving about, it will be an altered consciousness-a dreamlike, almost trancelike state. Often accompanied by movements called automatisms.*

These may include chewing movements of the mouth, picking at clothes or fumbling. A person may even be able to speak, but the words are unlikely to make sense and he or she will not be able to respond to others in an appropriate way.

  Although complex partial seizures can affect any area of the brain, they often *take place in one of the brain's two temporal lobes.*

*Because of this, the condition is sometimes called "temporal lobe epilepsy."  "Psychomotor epilepsy" is another term doctors may use to describe complex partial seizures.  Typically, a complex partial seizure starts with a blank stare and loss of contact with surroundings.*  

This is often followed by chewing movements with the mouth, picking at or fumbling with clothing, mumbling and performing simple, unorganized movements over and over again.  Sometimes people wander around during complex partial seizures.

For example, a person might leave a room, go downstairs and out into the street, completely unaware of what he or she was doing.  In rare cases, a person might try to undress during a seizure, or become very agitated, screaming, running or making flailing movements with his arms or bicycling movements with his legs.

  Other complex partial seizures may cause a person to run in apparent fear, or cry out, or repeat the same phrase over and over again.  Actions and movements are typically unorganized, confused and unfocused during a complex partial seizure.  However, if a complex partial seizure suddenly begins while someone is in the middle of a repetitive action-like dealing cards or stirring a cup of coffee-he or she may stare for a moment then continue with the action during the seizure, but in a mechanical, unorganized kind of way."

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*To the best of my understanding and individuals with seizures -- I have 3 friends -- severe episodes of DP/DR alone are NOT Simple Complex seizure, or Complex Partial Seizures or TLE.*

*Again: from descriptions here, I don't hear that. But no one can diagnose over the internet.*

*And I feel badly with individuals who have no insurance. I would say, try to get the money to see a neurologist if you have these other symptoms. A family member or friend would WITNESS these and probably take you to the ER anyway.*

------------------

*Also, these are not Grand Mal seizures *-- full out seizures where the individual drops to the ground and has a full out episode of violent

movement.

------------------

I have no idea what is going on in the brain when we have DP/DR. But without calling it an "illness" it is still not normal. I believe in the future, even if TRIGGERS are found, including abuse, they will still find the source of what is going on. NATURE AND NURTURE. *Even people with seizures -- when under stress they will be MORE LIKELY to have a seizure. Not all, but some.*


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## lautje (Mar 4, 2011)

I'm curiues if there are more people who know these seizures.
Its drivinge crazy its soo scary. 
I'm afraid i Will not get out of it One time .


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## Alex Massey (Feb 10, 2012)

Holy shit, this explains everything. I remember having these episodes as a child and trying to explain them to my mother what I was experiencing which was difficult as a child. Makes sense now... I wonder if these are linked with having DP/DR later on in life.


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## lautje (Mar 4, 2011)

I think do because u got it chronisch because i got scared of these attacks and now again i'm so afraid. 
I'm afraid inwint get out of it pfff. Stupid. 
How did you get your dp ?


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## sonixs (Jan 15, 2013)

hey hablas español? esos episodios como son exactamente?


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## lautje (Mar 4, 2011)

Sorry i dont spaek spanisch only dutch and englisch


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## timzie (Sep 28, 2012)

an eeg scan showed that i have micro seizures but now after six months of neurocognitive training and detoxing from heavy metal poisoning mainly mercury my mini seizures are gone since this week, which is a good thing because they made me suicidal. the suicidality is gone but the dr remains...my braindoc believs that the dr is caused by a bad connection between my two hemispheres and we are working on that now...this neurocognitive training is pretty amazing...


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2013)

Alex Massey said:


> Holy shit, this explains everything. I remember having these episodes as a child and trying to explain them to my mother what I was experiencing which was difficult as a child. Makes sense now... I wonder if these are linked with having DP/DR later on in life.


I think this thread is misleading. To be diagnosed with a seizure disorder you need to see a neurologist.

DP/DR episodes are NOT considered seizures at all. I have had horrific episodes (one in my car where I had to stop to find a place to park), but they are NOT seizures. Read the criteria very carefully. You are not losing consciousness, you have not lost the ability to communicate, you aren't experiencing jerking movements, you aren't doing odd things you can't recall. A seizure is ONE TYPE of neurological event and occurs on a spectrum.

Yes, there has been some discussion if DP/DR is a seizure disorder that exists below any threshhold that machines can read. IDK about that. I doubt it. This would be like saying an episode of deja-vu is a seizure and it's not. There is a "brain glitch" a "circuitry glitch" but these are not seizures.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2013)

PS, it seems Timzie is the only person officially diagnosed with some seizure disorder. I don't know him/her so I can't respond one way or another. I can't speak for a small number of individuals who have been diagnosed with seizures, but the majority of people on the board do not have them.


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## lautje (Mar 4, 2011)

Now your right dreamer i call it attacks not seizures . 
Dp attack 
But sooooooooo scary im afraid somecday i wont come out pff


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## Lorelai (Jun 17, 2013)

@Dreamer. I'm sorry to say this but you do need to get your facts straight about epilepsy before you speak.

There are six types of *generalized seizures:*

*Absence seizures*

*Myoclonic seizures*

*Clonic seizures*

*Tonic seizures*

*Atonic seizures*

The most common and dramatic, and therefore the most well known, is the generalized convulsion, also called the*grand-mal seizure*. In this type of seizure, the patient loses consciousness and usually collapses.That's the one seizure you seem to know about. That is not the only seizure out there.

And before every seizure small or big there are aura's.

Wikipedia:

An aura sensation can include some or a combination of the following:

Visual changes[edit]

Bright lights and blobs
Zigzag lines
Distortions in the size or shape of objects
Vibrating visual field
Scintillating scotoma
Shimmering, pulsating patches, often curved
Tunnel vision

Scotoma
Blind or dark spots in the field of vision
Curtain-like effect over one eye
Slowly spreading spots

Kaleidoscope effects on visual field
Total temporary monocular (in one eye) blindness (in retinal migraine)[2]
Heightened sensitivity to light
 Auditory changes[edit]

Hearing voices or sounds that do not exist: true auditory hallucinations
Modification of voices or sounds in the environment: buzzing, tremolo, amplitude modulation or other modulations
Heightened sensitivity to hearing
Someone speaking at a level and normal tone sounds like they are shouting loudly
 Other sensations[edit]

Strange smells (Phantosmia) or tastes (Gustatory hallucinations), or where food and drinks taste different than usual
Heightened sensitivity to smell
Feelings of déjà vu or confusion
Feelings of numbness or tingling on one side of the face or body
Feeling separated from one's body
Feeling as if the limbs are moving independently from the body
Feeling as if one or multiple limbs are growing
Feeling as if the mouth is too small for the teeth inside
Feeling as if one has to eat or go to the bathroom
Feeling as if one is going to vomit
Feeling as if you are getting warmer or overheating
Sudden perspiration
Anxiety or fear
Weakness, unsteadiness
Saliva collecting in the mouth
Being unable to understand or comprehend spoken words during and after the aura
Being unable to speak properly, such as slurred speech or gibberish, despite the brain grasping what the person is trying to verbalize (aphasia)
Being unable to read
Temporary amnesia, such as forgetting how to do tasks you have been doing for years
Lightheadedness
Feeling of floating above one's body.

Epilepsy is as complicated as mental diseases are. You can't put them on a big pile and call it the same. You should educate your self first before handing out advise.

Lorelai



Dreamer* said:


> I think this thread is misleading. To be diagnosed with a seizure disorder you need to see a neurologist.
> 
> DP/DR episodes are NOT considered seizures at all. I have had horrific episodes (one in my car where I had to stop to find a place to park), but they are NOT seizures. Read the criteria very carefully. You are not losing consciousness, you have not lost the ability to communicate, you aren't experiencing jerking movements, you aren't doing odd things you can't recall. A seizure is ONE TYPE of neurological event and occurs on a spectrum.
> 
> Yes, there has been some discussion if DP/DR is a seizure disorder that exists below any threshhold that machines can read. IDK about that. I doubt it. This would be like saying an episode of deja-vu is a seizure and it's not. There is a "brain glitch" a "circuitry glitch" but these are not seizures.


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2013)

> Epilepsy is as complicated as mental diseases are. You can't put them on a big pile and call it the same. You should educate your self first before handing out advise.
> 
> Lorelai


Yes, I agree, and I am not handing out advice.

*lautje said:*



> Now your right dreamer i call it attacks not seizures .
> Dp attack
> But sooooooooo scary im afraid somecday i wont come out pff


You didn't read any of my posts before that last one.

There is nothing to indicate in DP/DR ressarch that episodes of DP ... especially the bad waves ... are seizure activity.

I explained the difference between simple partial seizures, complex partial seizures, and we all know what grand mal are.

DP/DR is NOT a form of seizure in any literature on DP/DR. See Dr. Mauricio Sierra's book "Depersonalization: A New Look At a Neglected Syndrome." To be certain I will go to PubMed.

There is speculation that DP/DR may be some very "low level" seizure activity. You didn't read what I wrote.

I am not an expert. If you go to PubMed and look up any article on epilepsy and DP/DR you will find DP/DR can be a SYMPTOM during epilepsy, but our experience of chronic DP/DR here is not considered seizure activity. There may be a small school of individuals who are discussing psychosomatic events.

I know when I have had hidieous episodes of DP/DR, other than my chronic episodes, I am not having a seizure. I have never been told over forty years of DP/DR that I have any seizure disorder. Years ago I had an EEG and a CAT scan. I do not have any form of epilepsy. Individuals here are jumping he gun and self-diagnosing and driving themsevles bananas.

IMHO. YMMV.

http://www.dreamchild.net


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## sonixs (Jan 15, 2013)

s


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## wouhou (Mar 11, 2010)

Hi,
I know that too, i call that a dp/dr attack too, that's during max 10, 15 seconds if i panik, it's horrible.
I can't remember this feeling, i can remember just when i got it.

It's like i loose all of my references during this short time, who i am, where i am , what time it is.

Sorry for my english, peace.


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## forestx5 (Aug 29, 2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derealization

According to Wikipedia, epilepsy and dereleazition are linked. Also, I believe that epilepsy is greek for "attack".


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2013)

forestx5 said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derealization
> 
> According to Wikipedia, epilepsy and dereleazition are linked. Also, I believe that epilepsy is greek for "attack".


Dear Forest,

We generally are on the same page re: things.

I think there is a confusion here about definitions, really being clear about what we are talking about.

Firstly (whether anyone wishes to attack the DSM-5 now or not), see the following changes under the Dissociative DIsorders, Wikipedia has not caught up to a good bit of this:

*DSM-5 Changes in brief:*

http://www.dsm5.org/Pages/Default.aspx

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*"Major changes in dissociative disorders in DSM-5 include the following:*

1) derealization is included in the name and symptom structure of what previously was called depersonalization disorder and is now called depersonalization/derealization disorder

2) dissociative fugue is now a specifier of dissociative amnesia rather than a separate diagnosis

3) the criteria for dissociative identity disorder have been changed to indicate that symptoms of disruption of identity may be reported as well as observed, and that gaps in the recall of events may occur for everyday and not just traumatic events.

Also, experiences of pathological possession in some cultures are included in the description of identity disruption.

Dissociative Identity Disorder
Several changes to the criteria for dissociative identity disorder have been made in DSM-5. First, Criterion A has been expanded to include certain possession-form phenomena and functional neurological symp- toms to account for more diverse presentations of the disorder. Second, Criterion A now specifically states that transitions in identity may be observable by others or self-reported. Third, according to Criterion B, in- dividuals with dissociative identity disorder may have recurrent gaps in recall for everyday events, not just for traumatic experiences. Other text modifications clarify the nature and course of identity disruptions."

-------------------------

This is from the simple PDF update. I do not have the current DSM-5 and want to Xerox relevant portions to put on my website.

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1. As noted, feelings of DP and DR can be experienced DURING a seizure -- various types of seizures, however

2. DP/DR themselves are NOT considered seizure activity (at this time and I doubt they are any more than deja vu is)

3. What is very important is that in those of us who have DP/DR, we do NOT experience any amnesia -- we know something awful is happening, or is constantly with us -- as in my case I have DP/DR 24/7, 365 days a year, even in my dreams. Sometimes I have INTENSE episodes, but NONE of these (even if I were to define the intense episode as an "attack" which I don't) are considered epilepsy or seizure disorders.

-----------------------

We must look specifically at our symptoms. There seems to be a clear connection between panic attacks and DP/DR.

Also for me, I seem to jump straight to DP/DR bypassing a panic attack -- later in my life, whereas as a young person they seemed to come together. I associate DP/DR with anxiety, but many have anxiety and don't have DP/DR.

I only know for certain from my research, from knowing a number of people with epilepsy (some life-long, some gotten through severe head trauma, and some unexplained) they often have no clue what I describe as DP/DR. I cannot connect fully with THEIR simple, complex, or grand mal experience.

*What is important is any "altered state of consciousness" that may PRECEDE (in an aura), or be present DURING a seizure could very well be DP/DR along with MANY other symptoms often involving a loss of consciousness and memory for the event. This is a SYMPTOM of a seizure in those cases.*

*My point is that a wave of DP/DR (what I call it) -- a severe wave that comes over me (or others here) -- IN AND OF ITSELF is NOT a seizure. *DP and DR can by SYMPTOMS during a seizure, but not the other way around.

The OP said s/he meant "an attack of DP" or something like that. Definitions are important, and in diagnostics, subtle differences in how we describe our experiences are critical in diagnosis.

Also, as I have said, neurology and psychiatry overlap, and sometimes a neurologist will misdiagnose a psychiatric disorder, and a psychiatrist will misdiagnose a neurological disorder -- get them confused. It has in part to do with the way we communicate with our doctors. It also has to do with their ignorance.

But as I've noted many times, when DP/DR was more widely known in the days of psychoanalysis -- I was diagnosed almost immediately with DP/DR -- I described it as "feeling weird" and used every analogy I could think of. That was in 1975. I had an EEG and CAT scan around 1979? And have been seen by psychiatrists and neurologists over my lifetime (as medicine has changed). My chronic DP/DR, and my worse episodes have NEVER been diagnosed as epilepsy. And again, knowing inidividuals (friends of mine) WITH epilepsy -- I KNOW I don't have it. I have seen individuals fall into an absense seizure, I have witnessed a grand mal seizure.

*I would say, or would rephrase the subject heading as "Severe episodes of DP" or "Sudden wave of DP" -- not even "attack" and certainly not using the word epilepsy. That subject heading has now got everyone jumping on THAT bandwagon. No neurologist has ever told me my DP/DR is a seizure activity of any kind. I have also been told that individuals who have it with epilepsy ... well they don't know how to treat it.*

And as noted ... I see SO many young people here self-diagnosing from things off the internet. In my recent experience with cancer I found many sites with misinformation about THAT. My doctor recommended ONE support site --heavily moderated by doctors -- who clarify such confusion.

*Key to this, as I know -- tl:dr -- during an experience of passing DP/DR or during CHRONIC DP/DR -- we do NOT LOSE CONSCIOUSNESS, we do not have amnesia for the event, someone can talk to us. This even separates DP/DR from the other dissociative disorders, and it clearly is separated from Epilepsy at this time.*

Cheers,

D


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## forestx5 (Aug 29, 2008)

Dreamer,
I have read what you posted, but believe Wikipedia is accurate in stating "Derealization can accompany the neurological conditions of epilepsy (particularly temporal lobe epilepsy)." I first experienced derealization and depersonalization as post seizure symptoms of an isolated temporal lobe seizure. IE, I am not epileptic. I only experienced one such seizure in my life.
I experienced temporal lobe discharges every 4 or 5 seconds for perhaps 2 minutes. My sensory and emotional brain circuitry was basically fried following this event. My EEG is abnormal, showing pathology in my dominant temporal lobe.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2013)

forestx5 said:


> Dreamer,
> I have read what you posted, but believe Wikipedia is accurate in stating "Derealization can accompany the neurological conditions of epilepsy (particularly temporal lobe epilepsy)." I first experienced derealization and depersonalization as post seizure symptoms of an isolated temporal lobe seizure. IE, I am not epileptic. I only experienced one such seizure in my life.
> I experienced temporal lobe discharges every 4 or 5 seconds for perhaps 2 minutes. My sensory and emotional brain circuitry was basically fried following this event. My EEG is abnormal, showing pathology in my dominant temporal lobe.


Forest,

We are still in agreement. It is so difficult to clarify a point here on the internet.

Yes, of course, DR and DP can and do accompany neurological conditions -- absolutely! I understand then that in your case the trigger was then one isolated seizure. And such things happen. For instance, children can have one isolated febrile seizure -- a very high temperature from an illness that brings on a seizure and that may be the only seizure they have in their life. They are not epileptic. Also, my friend who had a horrific bike accident and really damaged some gray matter in his brain.

Two years after his accident, he is now having complex partial seizures (starting at age 46) -- at least one a day. You can't call him "epileptic" either. He is having seizure activity *secondary* to a serious head injury and unfortunately the damage to his brain is irreversable -- physical damage to his brain from the accident. His bike helmet was crushed. It was a freak accident.

*What I am just trying to clarify is that either the OP or others are saying that every bad wave of DP/DR is in and of itself a seizure, and I am debating that it is not.*

*So you have DP/DR as the RESULT of a seizure and you have abnormal brain acitvity that persists.*

Most people here (as I understand over the internet) have bad episodes of DP/DR which are NOT called seizures.

In my case, with full-time DP/DR for so long, and waves of bad DP/DR on and off, I have never had a seizure. And *I would not call my bad episodes of DP/DR a "seizure attack."* Your DP/DR could be defined as having resulted from this seizure episode.

I still think we're on the same page. And people here, are self-diagnosing, and worse, are not getting checked out for such things. You went for an EEG, etc. As I said, years ago I had an EEG, a CAT, etc. Nothing is abnormal, and is not to this day.

You are an example of yet another variation of a DP/DR onset. And it isn't fair.

This is why I say there can be no generalizations as to why we all have DP/DR. We have similarities in many cases, but there are many causes for these symptoms.

Take Care,

D

And I always repeat this story. My mother had Alzheimer's. She had it really for about 15 years. When she finally would agree to go to a doctor, she an an EEG and a CAT scan (in 1990). The EEG indicated "possible dementia onset" and the CAT was "normal" ... two years later the EEG was NORMAL and the CAT scan showed significant atrophy in her brain. These days, 23 years later, the tests they would give someone with dementia onset are probably far more sensitive. No one could explain that difference in the EEG.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2013)

Dreamer* said:


> I still think we're on the same page. And people here, are self-diagnosing, and worse, are not getting checked out for such things. You went for an EEG, etc. As I said, years ago I had an EEG, a CAT, etc. Nothing is abnormal, and is not to this day.
> 
> You are an example of yet another variation of a DP/DR onset. And it isn't fair.


Why are you saying it's not fair? What do you want to hear? Why do you think most people with DP/DR have EEg's and CAT scans that are normal?


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2013)

Philo said:


> Why are you saying it's not fair? What do you want to hear? Why do you think most people with DP/DR have EEg's and CAT scans that are normal?


GAH. More misunderstanding via the internet. I was only saying to Forest, it isn't fair that he had that seizure, or I should have said, "I'm sorry that happened to you." I'm only saying, I wish NO ONE here had DP/DR (whatever causes it). That's all. I was not making a reference to EEGs.

Confused.

I have no idea why you are attacking me.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2013)

I guess I am thinking of my friend whose life is ruined by his bike accident. He will be on disability because he has both bipolar and NOW complex partial seizures. THAT isn't fair either. I wish I could wave a magic wand and be certain no person in this world had any problem with their brain. My mother's Alzheimer's was also torture to watch.

And I know ... life isn't fair ... believe me, at 54 I know that. Life is full of major challenges for EVERYONE.


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