# Hell



## Guest

Heres a video of a guy who claims to have gone to hell, go down to the video of 23 minutes of hell with bill wiese.

http://www.freecdtracts.com/

The thing gets me the most is that religions have spoken about hell before they ever found out that the earth had magma core full of fire and lava and all that. So perhaps there is a real hell. If this guy goes to hell then we are all going to hell


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## CECIL

Hell is as real as you believe it to be. If you want to believe you will go to hell when you die, then that's where you'll go. Personally I think we've done a nice job of creating our own personal hell on earth, whether its on this planet as a whole or inside our own heads.

You don't have to be afraid if you don't want to. If we can create hell on earth, why can't we create heaven?


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## Guest

CECIL said:


> Hell is as real as you believe it to be. If you want to believe you will go to hell when you die, then that's where you'll go. Personally I think we've done a nice job of creating our own personal hell on earth, whether its on this planet as a whole or inside our own heads.
> 
> You don't have to be afraid if you don't want to. If we can create hell on earth, why can't we create heaven?


makes sense to me


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## +[ thedeadpoet ]+

Radiohead said:


> If this guy goes to hell then we are all going to hell


And this does?


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## Martinique

CECIL said:


> Hell is as real as you believe it to be. If you want to believe you will go to hell when you die, then that's where you'll go. Personally I think we've done a nice job of creating our own personal hell on earth, whether its on this planet as a whole or inside our own heads.
> 
> You don't have to be afraid if you don't want to. If we can create hell on earth, why can't we create heaven?


Sorry Cecil, I don't want to be rude but....I hate when people say this shit!!!!! Look, something is either True or it's False. Truth is not subjective. It either IS or it ISN'T. What are you talking about? I don't believe in Hell but I'm still scared of going there. I do not know what happens after death. No one does. We can think what we like. We can believe what we want. But we don't know. and Hell either exists or it doesn't. WE can't make something exist or not exist. Whew.


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## Epiphany

> I don't believe in Hell but I'm still scared of going there.


Really? Martinique...how can you be afraid of going to a place you don't believe exists?
I don't believe in heaven, hell, purgatory etc and I really have no fear of any of them...but you are right, my belief doesn't mean they that in truth they don't exist...they just don't for me. It's a bit like the old tree falling in the forest debate I guess.

Anyway...I think you could possibly be taking Cecil too literally. If it exists in someones head then it is real to them regardless of whatever the "truth" may or may not be. It is kind of irrelevant what the actual truth is if noone is ever going to know it anyway...therefore whatever an individual believes to be true holds more relevance than the actual truth(IMO).


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## CECIL

Martinique said:


> Sorry Cecil, I don't want to be rude but....I hate when people say this shit!!!!! Look, something is either True or it's False. Truth is not subjective. It either IS or it ISN'T. What are you talking about?


Its ok, be as rude as you like 

I do believe truth is subjective. One person can believe Aliens abducted them and another believes Aliens don't exist. You will side with whichever belief fits with YOUR version of the truth. But in fact both realities are true for the individual that holds those beliefs.

I am, in fact, talking about this literally, but by no means do you have to believe what I'm saying (Because what's real for me is true for me, what's real for you is true to you  ).

Let's take a really simple example: Most people think their own Mother's cooking is the best. If you go around to someone else's house and their Mum makes Lasagna, you could tell the other person "This Lasagna is crap, my mum makes the best Lasagna!". And you'd be right, because that's what's real for you. However, for the other person you are wrong and they will probably take offense, because what's real and true for them is that their Mum's Lasagna is the best.

Now those are personal preferences, which you can probably understand. Yet this concept extends to all of reality, because each person has a unique perspective, unique energetic make-up. In short, a unique reality. In short everyone's reality is different yet each is a valid perspective AND each is true for them.

If you want to take it a step further then you can say that each person's belief of what is true/real goes on to shape the experiences that they have. This is because you create your own reality and the belief patterns you hold absolutely effect what you experience.

Seeing is not believing, believing is seeing 

Also, if you didn't believe in Hell then you wouldn't be afraid of going there :roll:


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## gizmo

If hell exists, than the fact that you don't believe it does will not change it.if it is true, it is true.i believe it is true, but say i was wrong, then i would be and idiot, but if you are wrong and it IS real...........


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## Epiphany

> i believe it is true, but say i was wrong, then i would be and idiot, but if you are wrong and it IS real...........


....then at least I won't have spent my life here on earth fearing ending up there.

I don't believe that if you are wrong then you would be an idiot. Especially since none of us will ever know the "truth" anyway...except our own...therefore there is no known right or wrong with this.


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## Homeskooled

I understand what Martinique is saying. He/she doesnt _know_ if it exists, thus the possibility scares them. The great fallacy in beleiving that there is no truth is the consequence that lies do not exist. For instance, if a person has low self-esteem planted in them by their parents, this way of thinking validates that lie.One of the most imprisoning human traits is often how impossible it is for us to leave our own heads and our own pre/mis-conceptions behind. Indeed, the only reason rehabilitating people is worthwhile and able to be done is because, _objectively_, all people have worth, whether or not _anyone_ beleives it. This sort of quasi-scientific new age theory has been expounded in great detail in movies such as What the Bleep do we Know? Large parts of this movie, however, are complete fabrications presented as fact, such as the Japanese experiment with frozen water in containers with both good bad and phrases printed on the outside. The idea of multiple quantum universes which exist with whatever we _want_ to exist in them is considered to be false because quantum mechanics deals only with _quantum_ particles, by definition - larger particles are not known to governed by anything but Newtonian physics. Tying these two things together is the current problem - not abolishing Newtonian physics, objectivity, or logic altogether.

A strictly subjective universe IS DP. There is noone, nothing, outside of ourselves, until we eventually begin to doubt that. There is no truth, therefore, we begin beleiving that DP is not a disease. This is the way things ARE. This is called a _lack of insight_ by psychiatrists. It is subjectivity to the exclusion of anything, other people, possibly even us. These theories consistently tend to pop up in DP circles, but I cannot help but think of how useless this attitude itself would make this forum. Reality exists. It is _perceived_ differently from within each person, but even quantum particles will choose the same speed or location no matter who is observing. And this will occur objectively, in everyone's reality. Our reasons for why we do things is unique, subjective to each of us. But they can be felt, as can our actions, by other humans upon whom we perpetrate them - whether they are good or evil. In my opinion, Hell is just the state of rejecting the truth - that God is objectively Love, that people have objective worth, that this world has objective worth in it. If we refuse to see this, not if we dont know how, but we refuse it, we decay internally. Even living under a lie, we decay internally. Truth is Life. Hell and Heaven begin within us, and they begin now, on this earth. We simply carry what we are into the next life.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Monkeydust

Sum total of evidence for hell = 0. Therefore, it's pretty safe to conclude that the probability of hell existing is also 0.


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## Guest

I would say that most of us are already living in our own personal hell with dp.


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## CECIL

Jgard10 said:


> I would say that most of us are already living in our own personal hell with dp.


Bingo!

So then, if you can create Hell for yourself, why can't you create Heaven?


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## USpacebreaker

You know, Hell isn't mentioned that much in the Bible. Jews don't really believe in Heaven or Hell. Alot of our concepts of Hell come from poets, philosophers, and clergy but not the Bible. IMO, Hell is just seperation from God and that is all. Of course, God embodies love, charity, good will, and all the other things that let us rise above the animals so Hell is still not fun. But you can make a Heaven of Hell or a Hell of Heaven. To each his own a guess.


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## gizmo

What bible did you read? and how can you make heaven out of weeping and gnashing of teeth, being cast into outer darkness, tormented day and night forever and ever, etc.?hell is real and there are people who have been there and have come back to tell about it and trust me, you do NOT want to go there.


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## CECIL

gizmo said:


> and how can you make heaven out of weeping and gnashing of teeth, being cast into outer darkness, tormented day and night forever and ever, etc.


This is an interpretation, one that is shrouded in fear. People would like you to believe that anything outside of "normal" experience is evil and that you should be afraid of it. However, that fear is irrational and unfounded. You can make of reality whatever you want, the key? Dissolve your fear


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## USpacebreaker

Well, I did actually read the Bible quite a few times and the only ones that I can think of that has the authority to go to hell and back is Jesus and possibly the prophets. I watched the first 10 mins of this video and had to turn it off(partly because I'm going to go to sleep soon.) I'm not saying that this guy is trying to trick anyone or that he is a bad guy, by any means. What he experienced was very real to him. But, he did not go to hell. Look up hypnagogic hallucination and tell me what you guys think about this guy. That is what happend to him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogic_hallucination

And, from what I remember, the people that went to hell gnashing their teeth were the "lukewarm" Christians. They are the pious, church goers devoid of the spirit of God and knowledge of God. They thought they lived a good life, but failed to surrender. They gnash their teeth because they are now completely without God and as far as it is known to us; they will never see him again. All hell is, is a total seperation from God. Which, if one could imagine, is just as bad. These archetypes of demons, fire, or some goul dressed in a red suite poking you with a pitchfork are man's inventions. And, even if they are true, the main torment of hell is the absense of God(assuming that you value a relation with God.)

By that same token, one can be devoid of God on earth, and, consequently, be living in hell. The converse is also possible that one can be in union with God and submit to His will; then we can say that he is living in heaven. Heaven is here, now. Some(most) of us are blind to it.

And, please believe me. I'm not trying to debase anyone here. I would be a liar if I did not express this.

One last note. For a good read and good insight from a very lucid Christian, read the "Screwtape Letters" by C.S. Lewis. It is actually quite a good book.

Good and sweat dreams(if that is possible at this point)


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## Martinelv

> Really? Martinique...how can you be afraid of going to a place you don't believe exists?


It's quite easy to answer really, and tis all the fault of the more,lets say, fervent evangalists Even as the staunchest of Atheism, with an unshakable belief that there is no hell, in the biblical or 'we have made hell on earth' versions, I still am what I think Descates said: 'We are all left with a vestigial fear of hell'. I am.

But seeing as I know such a place, in the biblical sense, does not exist, it's about annoying a a nose bleed.

I am trying to consolidate my atheistic beliefs that there is 'possibly' of an afterlife, a 'spirit word', another dimention where whatever part of us exists after death. But I've got a whole lifetme to live because thay comes, hopefully, so I just get on with my life and will certainly find out either way one done.[/quote]


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## Epiphany

Martin...good to see an appearance in here from you.



> I still am what I think Descates said: 'We are all left with a vestigial fear of hell'. I am.


Fear of it existing or fear of ending up there? Maybe I just don't share the fear because I don't fear ending up there even if the place does exists.

I think I'm more afraid of monsters or the boogyman coming to get me...and yes, I am being serious. Or some evil spirit/ghost/entity thingy. Probably due to my lack of religious god-fearing background ...and my love of horror movies as a kid.


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## CECIL

USpacebreaker said:


> By that same token, one can be devoid of God on earth, and, consequently, be living in hell. The converse is also possible that one can be in union with God and submit to His will; then we can say that he is living in heaven. Heaven is here, now. Some(most) of us are blind to it.


I mostly agree with this, well said


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