# A way to spiritual growth?



## songflower (Aug 2, 2018)

Hello everyone! Maybe my thoughts are nothing new, but I'd like to share and see what other people think. 
Anyone else percieving DR as a way of spiritual growth? Like, so many of us suffer from these sympthoms, maybe it is a way of making us better people, stronger, much more stronger in spiritual, mental kind of way? Maybe this suffering is wortg it. Maybe enlightment is what happens next. For example, Ekhart Tolle was in a deep depression before he became a spiritual teacher. Maybe we all are going through this big challenge because our souls have chosen this. This thought brings some kind of reassurance...
Stay strong!


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## ThoughtOnFire (Feb 10, 2015)

I was raised as an Atheist, Science Orientated Skeptic of Everything. But that all changed the very first day I woke up DP'd. I felt like I was sensing something entirely different, that didn't fit into my current/previous box of beliefs/facts. Actually I immediately began to look into Spiritual books and Meditation. I covered many different sides of spirituality. Ranging from Taoism, Zen and Buddhism... to Christian Gnosticism (basically Christianities version of Buddhism). I even got into Eckhart Tolle really early on, and other "New Age Gurus". I delved into more Nature orientated paths like Wicca and the like. Right now I'm full circle, as in all of it has culminated and come together very much eclectic like. I don't believe DP is a Spiritual Enlightenment of any sort, but it does provide, for some, the opportunity to open their minds and take a closer to look.

I thought when I first found the DP community that everybody would be the same as me, open to Spirituality. But soon found that's not the case. Many turn Atheist, leaving mainstream religions. Others hold tighter onto their faith in religion. I know of very few who have started to look into Spiritual topics. It's not wrong, it's not for everyone. In fact, I've seen some here as a result of triggering DP through Meditation, and even specifically Eckhart Tolle's work.


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## songflower (Aug 2, 2018)

ThoughtOnFire said:


> In fact, I've seen some here as a result of triggering DP through Meditation, and even specifically Eckhart Tolle's work.


Thanks for sharing! 
Honestly, I think that Tolle's work triggered my obsession with time perception. When I read it I felt really uncomfortable. It happened before DR episode but now I realise that maybe it all started back then. Recently I just read some stories of enlightments, for example Osho's, and Toll's was there also.


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## brightmorningstar (Jun 8, 2018)

ThoughtOnFire said:


> I was raised as an Atheist, Science Orientated Skeptic of Everything. But that all changed the very first day I woke up DP'd. I felt like I was sensing something entirely different, that didn't fit into my current/previous box of beliefs/facts. Actually I immediately began to look into Spiritual books and Meditation. I covered many different sides of spirituality. Ranging from Taoism, Zen and Buddhism... to Christian Gnosticism (basically Christianities version of Buddhism). I even got into Eckhart Tolle really early on, and other "New Age Gurus". I delved into more Nature orientated paths like Wicca and the like. Right now I'm full circle, as in all of it has culminated and come together very much eclectic like. I don't believe DP is a Spiritual Enlightenment of any sort, but it does provide, for some, the opportunity to open their minds and take a closer to look.
> 
> I thought when I first found the DP community that everybody would be the same as me, open to Spirituality. But soon found that's not the case. Many turn Atheist, leaving mainstream religions. Others hold tighter onto their faith in religion. I know of very few who have started to look into Spiritual topics. It's not wrong, it's not for everyone. In fact, I've seen some here as a result of triggering DP through Meditation, and even specifically Eckhart Tolle's work.


Hello TOF how you do. Can you remember where did you see the triggering of DP through meditation specially with Tolle's work? I might have did that to myself lmao.


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## ThoughtOnFire (Feb 10, 2015)

I remember two members who said this happened to them. One is no longer on the forum. The other was last active in June. I could PM this person and connect you two if they're alright with that?


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## ThoughtOnFire (Feb 10, 2015)

songflower said:


> Thanks for sharing!
> Honestly, I think that Tolle's work triggered my obsession with time perception. When I read it I felt really uncomfortable. It happened before DR episode but now I realise that maybe it all started back then. Recently I just read some stories of enlightments, for example Osho's, and Toll's was there also.


This might interest you


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## brightmorningstar (Jun 8, 2018)

ThoughtOnFire said:


> I remember two members who said this happened to them. One is no longer on the forum. The other was last active in June. I could PM this person and connect you two if they're alright with that?


Yes that would be good! I watched the video, I think I've came to a phase where I saw my ego and the personality I've build all of these years, and I came to a point to deonstruct it, but I did choose to not to, I could've maybe experience that sweet nothingness if I was able to let my self go but I choosed to not. I believe many people here could deconstruct their sense of self so easy and achieve ego death and have a better life than their current life now. Idk. These stuff is really complicating. Most of the Shinzens words are true, I'm able to create a new structure easily with positive things but I don't feel like my old self, something is off, and also I started to experience pre-awakening symptoms which is not cool and scared the fuck out of me, I wish I had never got into the meditation, I hate fucking media promoting it as a self cure for stress and depression but mindfulness is destruction of your current personality. I fucking hate people


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## Sean1997- (Nov 9, 2015)

Hi guys, I've had this condition twice and now I have not long recovered for the 2nd time. And without a shadow of a doubt, I believe that this condition is a growth on the spiritual journey.

To truly evolve the psyche, I believe one has to feel nothing and in despair- to understand the importance of this experience for your spirit.

Before the 1st onset I was a high achieving student at sixth form, just about to do my exams. Then this hit me. I was a student very interested in western medicine and considering going into medical school; after I completed my exams. 
After I had recovered (1st time), I got to see 1st hand what western medicine was doing to people. Researching alternative approaches because medicine wasn't helping, I began to connect the ambiguities that had been plaguing my onset on to a spiritual evolutionary change. Although, when I started to change the things I'd eat and generally what I would do, I started to recover. And my new perception was completely different. I became a follower of the Buddhist approach and became heavily spiritual (I was before, but it was egotistic in a sense), this was pure.

Then I started to work in a place about 2 years later that was completely stressing me out and was physically/mentally exhausting.

I got ill again, literally a week before my probation ended at the job. I quit straight away and this time I was ill for longer, by 3 months-first time was 9 months; this time a year.

I had always struggled with severe anxiety, was extremely quiet. However since I have been better, all and I mean all of my insecurities have diminished. When I walk into a room I feel completely different to than before. I talk to anyone, my diet is strictly organic now, I feel as though I have a telepathic understanding with the universe and can predict things, intuitively. This innate sense of purpose and mystical'ity' have only developed after the 2nd time that I was ill.

Depending on what you believe in, I want to share my understanding from a metaphysical point of view.

We all go through this 'transformation' in order to purge your body of everything that it had been carrying over the course of our lives. People who have this condition, 9/10, weren't living a sustained life and the spirit needed to shake you to make you look within. With this condition you can't be looking out at the external world expecting doctors and other people to take control. It's asking you to look within and change aspects of yourself that don't serve you. I also believe that people who have this condition have a spiritual/mystical gift. Although some don't know it yet. But when you recover it all comes to you.

This is an illness that inspires you to be the best person you can be once you escape the torture.


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## songflower (Aug 2, 2018)

Sean1997- said:


> This is an illness that inspires you to be the best person you can be once you escape the torture.


Hi Sean! 
Could you please tell more about how diet helped you? Sometimes I think I should quit meat to recover...


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## songflower (Aug 2, 2018)

And what else you changed in your lifestyle?


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## Sean1997- (Nov 9, 2015)

I cut out sugar. I believe sugar is one of the worst culprits in our diet. It inflames the body, which disrupts the immune system. So illnesses are harder to recover from. I cut out that and gluten. Gluten gave me brain fog and made me feel even more spaced out. And recently I've started eating organic food. It is more expensive, however it is essential that you avoid chemicals and toxins in the pesticides. Eat your fruit and veg raw, on an organic diet. You don't have to eat as much, So even on organic food it's not that much more expensive in the long run.
Eating raw you retrieve all the nutrients to help you. Cooking removes up to 80% or so (estimate I read something about it ages ago so may be higher or lower). Or do raw before 4pm. After that you can eat cooked.

Also I took up a new hobby. I started playing the guitar and singing. Even with dp&dr, when I felt brain fogged to the point of having a blank mind and daydreaming all day, scared to socialise. I would just sit all day playing the guitar and recording myself. Even when I had this condition, I got really into it. It helped distract me.


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## brightmorningstar (Jun 8, 2018)

Sean1997- said:


> Hi guys, I've had this condition twice and now I have not long recovered for the 2nd time. And without a shadow of a doubt, I believe that this condition is a growth on the spiritual journey.
> 
> To truly evolve the psyche, I believe one has to feel nothing and in despair- to understand the importance of this experience for your spirit.
> 
> ...


I don't think I am able to understand what you write here. You got DP/DR out of no where and cured yourself and your views about your ambitions changed? And spirituality helped how? I don't want to look like an asshole but we have a tendency to connect the dots we think they connect and create a fasnicating movie for ourselves. The thing is most of the people who get DP/DR has weak sense of self, if you surf on these forums you'll understand from the speech of people. They are, we are, weak in a sense, mentally, emotionally whatever, something in our foundation is not stabile as other people. Most of the people are traumatized or emotionally neglected or abused if you ask me. And I think that is true. As for as coming to your proposition, I really don't think I did understand it fully but I'll try to give my comment from what I've understand and what I think about this subject lately. Buddhism is strictly a progress to seeing nothingness and destruction of sense of self a.k.a Ego self to reunite with your pure Higher self, which this Higher self is your soul. You can seperate your psyche to three ways, body, mind, and soul. Mind symbolizes the Ego, so most of the people according to the Buddhists are controlled by the Mind, Ego. But for us our mind has rejected us, or we rejected our mind because it was so painful to bear. So it did create a sense of dissociation, depersonalization because we distanced ourselves from our sense of self that we've been long accepted. I believe people like us would proceed in spiritual Buddhism so fast because at start we don't have a strong self, which we can destroy it quite easily, that's what I saw with myself. And also I support that people like us shouldn't seek spiritual escape without a guidance because it might get too risky. You might get hell when you bargained from salvation form your old corrupted and weakened and DP/DR'ed sense of self. These are blurred waters. I believe the solution of DP/DR should be searched within Ego Death, as I said, that is a possible salvation style, and it can be easily achieved than other people, but it would be risky without a teacher. So as far as I can tell, with dropping stress levels and using acceptance on everything(world is not real? Ok whatever attitude), high aerobic exercises(sprinting like an animal), and generating positive emotions by gratitude, these may look corny and easy on the writing but these things are not achieved by %90 people on earth and now you gotta set these standards for your new life to escape the trap your brain set out for you. I hope I'm able to convey what I think.


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## Sean1997- (Nov 9, 2015)

And yes I cut down my meat eating. It is good for a source of iron and protein, however it shouldn't be eaten every day, once or twice a week. Moreover, the pinnacle nutrients for your body are vitamins and minerals. They are the things as well as antioxidants, that help alleviate ailments and toxins in the body. As well as having the magnetism for the electromagnetic makeup of our astral, vibrational frequencies that have an effect on our physical bodies.


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## Sean1997- (Nov 9, 2015)

You're sounding like you are disagreeing with you. However, from what I have said, you're response matches exactly my input.

I said I had extreme anxiety and social issues, therefore I needed my ego to be removed via an ego death. No mind, blank all the time. I had to accept nothing to conquer everything. If you see what I'm trying to say; figuratively.

After I recovered I became humble with the terms that I had to isolate myself from everyone and everything to truly understand my association with mother nature and the 'real world' we are living in. Not the materialistic one.


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## Sean1997- (Nov 9, 2015)

brightmorningstar said:


> Hello TOF how you do. Can you remember where did you see the triggering of DP through meditation specially with Tolle's work? I might have did that to myself lmao.


You're sounding like you are disagreeing with you. However, from what I have said, you're response matches exactly my input.

I said I had extreme anxiety and social issues, therefore I needed my ego to be removed via an ego death. No mind, blank all the time. I had to accept nothing to conquer everything. If you see what I'm trying to say; figuratively.

After I recovered I became humble with the terms that I had to isolate myself from everyone and everything to truly understand my association with mother nature and the 'real world' we are living in. Not the materialistic one


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## Sean1997- (Nov 9, 2015)

Sorry wrong quote aha my bad


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## brightmorningstar (Jun 8, 2018)

Real world is the both naturalistic and both materalistic one Sean. Don't forget that and fall into the spirituality trap like that most of the people do. Good luck to you.


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## Sean1997- (Nov 9, 2015)

It isn't a trap the real world is unimaginable. Our senses detect our materialistic world, therefore we can appreciate the thoeretical proposition that is nothing more than a mere illusion, from the way we understand it.

Like Plato, I believe there is a true frequency presenting the truest of information at a sensual level, and our senses limit us to a minute percent of that.

But thank you for that, I appreciate it


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## brightmorningstar (Jun 8, 2018)

You're quite young Sean, I wouldn't think that I know everything about the world and what is real and what is not if I were you, and I wouldn't be so sure to directly trust, and convey the idea of Buddhists without experiencing in your whole life. Reality of life is different to everyone, I wouldn't pick the "life is an illision" . That is not healthy, especially for people like us. Of course now, you're not me and I'm not you. But I've been into your place before and at your age. So I understand the way you think and look. But your views will change immensely when you're progressing in this life. So I advise you do not stick to that view. It would only damage you.


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## brightmorningstar (Jun 8, 2018)

Sean1997- said:


> It isn't a trap the real world is unimaginable. Our senses detect our materialistic world, therefore we can appreciate the thoeretical proposition that is nothing more than a mere illusion, from the way we understand it.
> 
> Like Plato, I believe there is a true frequency presenting the truest of information at a sensual level, and our senses limit us to a minute percent of that.
> 
> But thank you for that, I appreciate it


You're quite young Sean, I wouldn't think that I know everything about the world and what is real and what is not if I were you, and I wouldn't be so sure to directly trust, and convey the idea of Buddhists without experiencing in your whole life. Reality of life is different to everyone, I wouldn't pick the "life is an illision" . That is not healthy, especially for people like us. Of course now, you're not me and I'm not you. But I've been into your place before and at your age. So I understand the way you think and look. But your views will change immensely when you're progressing in this life. So I advise you do not stick to that view. It would only damage you.


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## Sean1997- (Nov 9, 2015)

I'm honestly very grounded I don't have the stereotypical outlook you believe. I know objects and nature intself isn't an illusion as in it isn't there. I mean there is so much more to an object than it's appearance. For example with music. There is so much more deeper things interacting with you than just the sound you hear. Energies are being transferred.

I am not the stereotypical recreational psychedelic user sort of person who has that belief system of the world being a fake form of reality. I'm just expressing that there's more to it than that.

I am very grounded and make the most of my days with nature and admire the beauty of what my senses give me. But when I feel excitement from that view, I feel connected to something different with nature, rather than just what I am looking at or hearing.


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## Sean1997- (Nov 9, 2015)

You are misinterpreting what I am expressing, I am sorry


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## tikobird (Feb 26, 2008)

Mindful meditation is always recommended for anxiety. Since the severe anxiety, I've had has kept me outside my body and always depersonalized it's helped me immensely. People with DP are constantly monitoring their thoughts and body. The meditation is for being in the moment and stops the overthinking which is causing anxiety. People with DP are worriers and overthinkers. I recommend it highly. It leaves you so relaxed and refreshed. Sometimes we are afraid to try new things or are not fully informed of what it is. it's not complicated or difficult and who doesn't want to stop the worrying that causes anxiety? I, certainly do.


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## brightmorningstar (Jun 8, 2018)

tikobird said:


> Mindful meditation is always recommended for anxiety. Since the severe anxiety, I've had has kept me outside my body and always depersonalized it's helped me immensely. People with DP are constantly monitoring their thoughts and body. The meditation is for being in the moment and stops the overthinking which is causing anxiety. People with DP are worriers and overthinkers. I recommend it highly. It leaves you so relaxed and refreshed. Sometimes we are afraid to try new things or are not fully informed of what it is. it's not complicated or difficult and who doesn't want to stop the worrying that causes anxiety? I, certainly do.


I'm sorry but you don't know what real Mindfulness is, you seem like just sold out to the news about meditation and not dived into its depth. Actually, Mindfulness is Being the Awareness but not the doer, not the one who feels but becoming the Observer of the feelings and thoughts, that means you constantly monitor your thoughts and body with a passive and non-attached attitude and you let go of them after observing and coming to the present moment again. By product of that you become aware of everything you have in the moment, that is what they mean by present moment.


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## tikobird (Feb 26, 2008)

Excuse me, but I must differ. I've been doing mindful meditation for many years. I'll call it guided meditation. Your explanation is absolutely correct. Perhaps you misunderstood me. I began doing the mindful living and meditation years ago. I went to a psychologist who was also a Buddhist and he instructed me with explanation and advised me of books to help me. Mindfulness is to be one with yourself and aware of the breath. You may hear all the sounds around you without giving attention to them. When you notice a thought or feeling you just acknowledge it and let it go by. I could give you a list of the CDs and books that have taught me much about it but you're an intelligent person and I'm sure you're aware of them.

Another thing this psychologist helped me with was learning to love myself and be my own parent for matters which I won't go into at this point. I wish you all the best and happiness in all you do. I'm learning more from the current therapist. The next step is EMDR therapy. I learn from others and am becoming more whole each day.


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## brightmorningstar (Jun 8, 2018)

tikobird said:


> Excuse me, but I must differ. I've been doing mindful meditation for many years. I'll call it guided meditation. Your explanation is absolutely correct. Perhaps you misunderstood me. I began doing the mindful living and meditation years ago. I went to a psychologist who was also a Buddhist and he instructed me with explanation and advised me of books to help me. Mindfulness is to be one with yourself and aware of the breath. You may hear all the sounds around you without giving attention to them. When you notice a thought or feeling you just acknowledge it and let it go by. I could give you a list of the CDs and books that have taught me much about it but you're an intelligent person and I'm sure you're aware of them.
> 
> Another thing this psychologist helped me with was learning to love myself and be my own parent for matters which I won't go into at this point. I wish you all the best and happiness in all you do. I'm learning more from the current therapist. The next step is EMDR therapy. I learn from others and am becoming more whole each day.


Thank you for your nice comment. I believe Mindfulness requires instructor or a close teacher to guide us, other way it might lead to strange places as it did to me. Playing with your own mind is not something damaged people should do it to themselves like us I believe. I'm really scared to see my thoughts more from the distance since we are already detached people. May I ask why did you quit your buddhist mindfulness therapist? Did you get results by it or? Actually being aware is good but detachment is not that much.... Detachment is disgusting me. Yet Acceptance part is really big stuff. It is the real deal, Self-Love, Acceptance. But if you are unaware you can't use these. It was like that with me. I wasn't aware how I was judging myself constantly and that is so frustrating to notice it after 23 years of living. How was I so aware that I was digging my own hole? Anyways. As a person who has a lot of research about these stuff. My best bet you to try Loving-Kindness meditation, emotions are the ultimate power of the human beings, detachment is the opposite of the attachment, with loosening of attachment, emotions get reduced in its power. And for your DP/DR Loving Kindness(Metta) meditation could create wonders for you. And also a perfect oppurtinity to learning to love yourself more. If I was able to turn to meditation again, I would practice it day and night. It is really quite powerful it might snap out of you from DP/DR with alongside it benefits in long term practice. I think EDMR is quite useful too.


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## tikobird (Feb 26, 2008)

I think it works in some ways but isn't helping me totally. I really can't say much more because I've been having rather intense anxiety for a while. I don't know why. The anxiety is gradually turning into a depression. I'm surprised I'm even on here today.

I grew up in an alcoholic home and I grew up a worried child and hated myself. I usually thought I was different from others.

This happens when no one is talking to you even though they are there. I don't mean to be a complainer, I'm just so tired every day. There's my trauma and I hope the EMDR can help me stop disliking myself so I can feel like I belong somewhere.


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## Sean1997- (Nov 9, 2015)

I completely agree with what both of you are saying. And in no way, in what I'm going to say disagreeing with you. However, too much meditation can build up too much energy in the body, in which it can't be released. I've experienced this, the brain fog will come up on me if I meditate too much in a particular time frame.

The important thing is balance. Nature, the earth is a thing you ground yourself and neutralise these energies. Meditation is amazing for what it enables one to do, but it needs to be kept at a reasonable rate. I believe non weight bearing exercises (I.e cycling and swimming) can help alleviate that energy and keep you grounded, as well as walking. However, in my experience cycling was the best, I have always lived it too.

So my advice would be to carry on doing the meditation, but don't become dependent on it to escape your feelings. And do productive things also to keep you grounded.


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## Sean1997- (Nov 9, 2015)

I practice Metta meditation, it is a great way for you to really see yourself. Sometimes this can bring on negative thoughts but sometimes I believe our mind brings up the opposite of what it wants to do, in that sense with emotional thoughts, because in order to see and be unconditional love. You need to feel nothing, in that moment. Become detached through observation, eventually you'll get to delta brain wave frequency, the same as dreaming . However you are conscious, and it has been recorded that several people, in that moment, released oxytocin from their pituitary glands. They felt pure epiphany and oneness in that moment. Some had no symptoms after their moment for a long period of time, from their illnesses.

It's a great meditation


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## brightmorningstar (Jun 8, 2018)

Sean1997- said:


> I completely agree with what both of you are saying. And in no way, in what I'm going to say disagreeing with you. However, too much meditation can build up too much energy in the body, in which it can't be released. I've experienced this, the brain fog will come up on me if I meditate too much in a particular time frame.
> 
> The important thing is balance. Nature, the earth is a thing you ground yourself and neutralise these energies. Meditation is amazing for what it enables one to do, but it needs to be kept at a reasonable rate. I believe non weight bearing exercises (I.e cycling and swimming) can help alleviate that energy and keep you grounded, as well as walking. However, in my experience cycling was the best, I have always lived it too.
> 
> So my advice would be to carry on doing the meditation, but don't become dependent on it to escape your feelings. And do productive things also to keep you grounded.


Hi, where did you get that information about build up energy? Did you notice it yourself? It might be the case with me when I had unexplainable symptoms. Define how much is too much meditation for you to make you get foggy


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## Sean1997- (Nov 9, 2015)

For example, I would meditate 3 or 4 times a day, whilst being stuck in the house. However, I noticed it only made me less productive because I was using it as an escapism, to try and feel better. I would become frustrated with the meditation because I felt worse after them.

And yes it is from personal experience, as well as research but can't remember the source or where to find what I was looking at. But it's an innate knowing too, if you know what I mean.

My crown chakra became filled with energy and I could feel it pulsating, it raised my bp over time (i had POTS a blood pressure syndrome),and I felt the energy being blocked. If you focus too much of your energy on your head or any region, it'll only unbalance the chakra system.

So being in nature with the 4 elements, whilst meditating. So meditating outside on fields/trees, with incense, water or candles; is a great way to ground that energy.

We are electromagnetic. So in that sense imagine touching a metal open wire, you're gonna be electrocuted because it's too much current at one time. But if you are touching an earth, that electric will be neutralized and spread to that earth- to neutralise your body. However, that energy of electricity is still running through you.

So just like meditation, if there's something to neutralise the raising frequencies, moderately over time your body becomes accustomed to higher energies. Building up tolerance through keeping grounded whilst meditating, offers free flow of energy and can unblock these energies.

A lot of the time I believe a good way to become knowledgeable about something like this is to stop researching things to validate it. But if you experience it, then the evidence is going to have more of an effect because you truly believe it. And this is what searching within is all about.

Be present, in the moment- the observer. Instead of rationalizing feelings based on science or whatever. An innate sense of being is where knowledge is found, research is just memorizing something that you do not connect with as strongly.

However because we are referring to the same context I've came to realise that, we all have tendencies to wish something away because it is uncomfortable. And we search avenues to find a cure/solution. Whereas I believe once you can stop doing that with things that enable you to live in the moment (even just for a second), then that's when your mind, soul and body become aligned to restructuring their energies to alleviate that suffering. And intrinsically that's where you psyche evolves.

So in a sense getting these conditions can be a blessing in disguise because they ask you to completely change your perspective on the world and what is around you. I'm grateful for that,and when a lot of people recover they say the same.


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## brightmorningstar (Jun 8, 2018)

Sean1997- said:


> For example, I would meditate 3 or 4 times a day, whilst being stuck in the house. However, I noticed it only made me less productive because I was using it as an escapism, to try and feel better. I would become frustrated with the meditation because I felt worse after them.
> 
> And yes it is from personal experience, as well as research but can't remember the source or where to find what I was looking at. But it's an innate knowing too, if you know what I mean.
> 
> ...


I think one bad side of meditations is this. Too much energy getting stuck in the body and it manifest itself in variety of ways. And eventually stuck energy fucks up with your chakras. As it did to me. Whenever I do meditate, as you said that is innate knowledge, I just wanted to ask you without giving any info, and you seem to tell everything that happened to me, and almost the same, after I meditate and if I stay home etc. my crown chakra or third eye vibrates and makes an energy loop there and it makes me unable to think clearly etc. And after if you don't ground that energy for a while it fucks up with your chakra and you become ungrounded as fuck for days and your root/down body chakras lose their balance and become low powering. I lost my sexual proweness because of it for this 1-2 month. My third eye and crown become so active and it created even some mental difficulties, like I started to become afraid of if I'm gonna have awakening or the energies moving up there started to lose my logical thinking and made me go into freak mode, I started to couldn't sleep at night because of it. Now, I know you love meditation, spirituality, grounding, nature etc. But for me, from my own personal view, and from my researchs and thinkings, detachment and observer is not for househoulders, I mean this practice of meditation and these philosophies aren't created for people like us, I'm not saying people shouldn't practice it, but this meditation only 1 piece of a whole work, there must be many things to done to balance it. That is why I hate meditation after this. No one warns or there is no information about the reality of this. After 2 years of meditating and fucking up my energetic body and imbalancing my chakras and numbing my emotional system I've come to learn it and no one told me. You see, I've embarked this journey to get back my lost feelings but here it is I'm more broken than before. People talk it like a miracle of spirituality about meditation. It is a tool but it is a dangerous and risky tool and it should be done with a guided teacher. And being the Observer is the full of shit. After you cross the line you will see what I'm talking about. It is not all serenity or calmness. There is a Dark Night coming for you let me tell you this. I think this practice should be adviced with a big caution. But in the opposite, it is adviced as, OH YOU CAN'T DO IT WRONG, JUST BREATHE. Well these stupid fucks don't know anything at all and mostly they are low in IQ and don't know any other phrases except telling people to "BE THE OBSERVER", "RETURN TO THE BREATH", "THERE IS NO BAD MEDITATION". They are just doing spiritual bypassing and feeling good and feeding their big egos and thinking that they are better than non-meditators and they get their sense of strength there. And when there is a thought of provoking them to feel negative, or feeling an urge to get on the work. They say oh this is just a thought and go on log in on reddit and tell how the west is fucking material and illisuionary world. Sorry I don't eat this crap. %90 alone meditators are doing spiritual bypassing that is all I can say and know.


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## Sean1997- (Nov 9, 2015)

Thank you for the first part of that comment, and I agree with some of the things you have said like meditation is a dangerous tool. As I have said I have reduced my meditation drastically, I hardly ever do it unless my body brings me there without conscious thought.

However, the second part I believe is open to interpretation. Being the observer has nothing to do with just meditation. It comes to life: being open minded, letting go of grudges,grievances, past traumas. And getting rid of those has more to do with just living in the moment expecting the answers to come to you rather than you searching from them through meditation.

Being the observer is the most complete form a human can be, in my opinion. It enables you to be attached to nothing that brings you stress in our every day life, accepting other people have other opinions, and although you may think you are right, you know another human is having a different experience. They perceive the world differently therefore, their opinion is just as right as yours, if they feel as strongly towards it as you do. This condition makes you do that and all these negative emotions are absorbing your productive energies, which is why it feels uncomfortable, because this condition makes you feel all these emotions all the time.

Therefore, being the observer is the solution of this in a sense. Just observing that those feelings are there but having the perseverance to let them be there, rather than trying to escape.

This is my opinion, if you disagree that's fine, although it's okay for you to have a different thought I respect that


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## brightmorningstar (Jun 8, 2018)

Sean1997- said:


> Thank you for the first part of that comment, and I agree with some of the things you have said like meditation is a dangerous tool. As I have said I have reduced my meditation drastically, I hardly ever do it unless my body brings me there without conscious thought.
> 
> However, the second part I believe is open to interpretation. Being the observer has nothing to do with just meditation. It comes to life: being open minded, letting go of grudges,grievances, past traumas. And getting rid of those has more to do with just living in the moment expecting the answers to come to you rather than you searching from them through meditation.
> 
> ...


Hey man you're really greatly developed and a great intellectual person for your age much luck to you on your own journey. What are the things you did to flush out the excessive energy that created by meditation in your body? I'm mostly at home trying to study Spanish and other stuff, so I'm at home all the time, should I go to the coast and take walk everyday to flush it? It gets reducing everyday, I mean the tinglings and pressure is going off, but at nights its getting a spike and making me mentally afraid of something. U got any ideas?


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## tikobird (Feb 26, 2008)

I understand what you're saying. I learned a lot fro the above video. I agree that the replacement of our ego which was formed long ago can be reinvented by gradually replacing self hatred with the positive aspects we own. When you speak about mindfulness the idea is that you're gradually getting rid of the created self of childhood. I grew up with parents who were there but in the midst of alcoholism and other family dysfunctions they rarely spoke to me. This created the time to assume I didn't belong and there was something inherently wrong with me. I used to think if people would tell me what I'm doing wrong I'd correct it. The way I hated myself was very deep. I was born into this.

There's no blame to put on my parents. My father's family had alcoholism for generations. After he stopped drinking he continued to know much about loving children. I forgive him because alcoholism is not a fault of his. My mother was rather quiet and afraid to say much. So one night after a dance and ruminating about why my close friends were teasing me the only thing in my mind was "what's wrong with me", and if only they'd tell me so I could change. I must work on myself and am finding the way.

As you've said mindful meditation and finding love does work better with guidance and having the proper instruction.


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## brightmorningstar (Jun 8, 2018)

tikobird said:


> I understand what you're saying. I learned a lot fro the above video. I agree that the replacement of our ego which was formed long ago can be reinvented by gradually replacing self hatred with the positive aspects we own. When you speak about mindfulness the idea is that you're gradually getting rid of the created self of childhood. I grew up with parents who were there but in the midst of alcoholism and other family dysfunctions they rarely spoke to me. This created the time to assume I didn't belong and there was something inherently wrong with me. I used to think if people would tell me what I'm doing wrong I'd correct it. The way I hated myself was very deep. I was born into this.
> 
> There's no blame to put on my parents. My father's family had alcoholism for generations. After he stopped drinking he continued to know much about loving children. I forgive him because alcoholism is not a fault of his. My mother was rather quiet and afraid to say much. So one night after a dance and ruminating about why my close friends were teasing me the only thing in my mind was "what's wrong with me", and if only they'd tell me so I could change. I must work on myself and am finding the way.
> 
> As you've said mindful meditation and finding love does work better with guidance and having the proper instruction.


I'm in the same boat as you, I have C-PTSD a.k.a severe childhood trauma, I've always been told by my own parents that I have no soul and I was a lazy son of a bitch and always thinking if I'm gonna make a mistake that gonna anger someone or when I speak or do something if I'm gonna make someone angry because mom and dad was getting angry at everything and never let me show my emotions, so I become emotionless, buried emotions for most of my life. I get you, forgiveness is really easens the burden, I say I forgive them too myself, because they also got traumatized by their parents and this goes on generation to generation, however I also believe there is always a choice and from their intellect (My father was a really successful doctor surgeon) and with that mind capacity if you act like a psychopath then you choosed what you've done. I totally get you severe trauma and neglect is destroys lives there is nothing almost more severe than this except physical/sexual abuse. I've literally spend my whole life in agony/severe self-hatred/ severe hatred towards people and severe paranoia if people are thinking ill about me or gonna go mad to me. Literally was never be able to love someone in my life because of this patterns. Yes mindfulness is actually a way out for a traumatic person but there is always something to pay you know, I mean I literally feel I've reduced my old self and built new pathways, however I also believe that these effects might be just gone after leaving meditating because your ego integrates again, or if you continue meditating you essentially come to a phase of dissolving which it can easily come to a traumatic person because you already don't like yourself and you wish to delete that persona deep down, I know you know what I'm talking about  So then there is Dark Night of The Soul or Ego Death possibilities, which might lead you to your own salvation at the end if you take the path, yet I was too scared to go into it since I have no teacher nor guidance, but I've seen the glimpse of what it could be, and I've seen most of my life from a distance and how I created my Ego to battle the trauma and built that unnecessary and unhelpful persona that I've lived my life, and there comes a phase to let go of it and your whole attachments that you hold, but I choosed not to, maybe you would and maybe another person would too, but I didn't think I really wanted it. Because deep down I think the damage we got also could be turned into a source of great power and a beacon of guidance in the path of life. No one outside has seen so much pain and agony believe me their only pain is their girlfriend is leaving them mostly, or payment or bills. Even if you have $100k debt and you work for 5 years to pay it that is no where close to a lived life in hell. Sorry I did ramble a lot but I've decided to not live my life like this. So I've embarked on journey to self-heal but I didn't know what was the issue and it was caused by trauma till this year. So I've always blamed myself for being like this, a weakling, a cursed man. I've embarked on meditation as a self help too I had many dreams most of them were evolved around getting my full emotions back. So after this meditation 1.5 journey, which was so crazy, because I've experienced these detachment, dissociation, depersonalization, derealization and supression of my inner voice, but besides all these negative things, I think I've come to see how mind really works and I've come to see where I was doing wrong to make myself unhappy and keeping myself in traumatized life again and again, I mean I took a lot of lessons that no one could give it to me, I only really know that I can control my mind and my emotions, which I always thought I was a cursed slave and I couldn't do anything to change that before and I always hoped for a magic pill or rejected any opinions about you can change yourself. I think everything valuable comes with a price so it was 1.5 year self journey into the self for me. 



 If you watch this video, I totally agree with this guy. After seeing many things, this is really true what he says.


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## Sean1997- (Nov 9, 2015)

I've watched sadgharu plenty of times,he has a of of goof ideas and perspectives about how to use law of Attraction to reverse or manifest your reality.

Now I believe in finding your core element, that is associated with your astrological alignment. Doesn't have to be but usually from people i meet they seem to be at one with their one element. Look up your date birth and find your element: fire, water,air, or earth. I was an earth and loves being in nature. I loved the other elements too but only the earth could relax my energies, I don't know why. What I'm saying is theoretical, however my girlfriend is the same. She is a water element and can only find that relaxation in water.

So I would encourage you to do walking and also a non weight bearing energy to increase your blood pressure, so that the physical process of the blood pumping fast around the body, matches that of the energy flow. Therefore I believe that the flow of blood and metabolic rates of reactions in the body can simultaneously be a catalyst for the grounding of your energies .

Physically this is released through sweat, breath and heat, as well as the organs and blood internally reacting too.

Also another thing I would suggest would be to start playing a musical instrument. 
Music is a powerful tool that can help your crown chakra. I've found music can unblock that heaviness there, as it's like the ohm sound. It vibrates in my head, and the dopamine rush (goosebumps) I sometimes get listening to music completely releases that tension and fog for me. Although, listening can be as good as playing yourself. But learning or playing an instrument is a distraction and grounding tool in itself. Like the guitar is made out of wood, as are a lot of instruments. And wood is a great natural material to be in contact with everyday.


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## Sean1997- (Nov 9, 2015)

And thank you for your kind words, normally people can be dismissive because I'm young, however I believe my soul is an old one. I have perceptions different to most my age and I really want to be able to give my personal wisdom of advice. Because although I'm young I've had this condition twice, totalling 2 years all together. So in essence, I think I have a good concept of what's going on, but again someone else may have a different idea that will be as clear to them as this is to me. Nothing is abundantly right or wrong. So you can take what I say with a pinch of salt. Although, from the context of this condition and how you describe your circumstances. Your path is not too different to mine.

And maybe our communication with each other was destined to happen, so I could learn from you and vice versa.  good luck to you too my friend! Wish all the best


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## tikobird (Feb 26, 2008)

I have one question about what he's said. How can an infant or child cause their own depression if they're born into a dysfunctional family who ignores them? Most animals don't do well if left alone either. Isolation has a huge impact on most mammals. I'll be back for more conversation. Elephants remain in a family based group and when a young one is hurt or can't walk they all try to help. I might be missing a point here. Children don't learn love if ignored. They have no models to base their actions on. They're basically fending for themselves. I think there's a great disparity here.

I'm always open to new data so your response is welcome. I know it's up to us, later on, to create our own feelings and observe things differently. We need the tools given to us to change anything but we are able to change.


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## Sean1997- (Nov 9, 2015)

I believe that a dysfunctional family setting breeds the depression, that latches onto the child, without the child being a willing participant.

However, I believe the child needed to have that depressive state in order to recognise what love is when/if they overcome it. It's the great aspect of polarity, that in order to feel love it needs to be taken away (if not present initially).

The isolation is not a good start for a living organism, however if they did not feel rejection or hurt and fall into that state of despair, they may learn that behaviour from their parents; believing it is normal and stable for them.

In this case the depressive state is a mechanism for growth, knowledge and understanding.

Again, as you've said this is just my opinion. These conditions feel awful, although once overcome, it can completely transform oneself. If children in dysfunctional families felt fine being isolated and alone, then it would be passed on generations-destroying evolutionary growth. Although the ones that recover from the bad state of traumas, depression and so on, recognise that they need to be different (if they were to have children). So in a sense, they take the bad to produce the good. Obviously it's not that straight forward but I believe it has gave people the optimism and motivation to seek the light even more so.


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## brightmorningstar (Jun 8, 2018)

Sean1997- said:


> I've watched sadgharu plenty of times,he has a of of goof ideas and perspectives about how to use law of Attraction to reverse or manifest your reality.
> 
> Now I believe in finding your core element, that is associated with your astrological alignment. Doesn't have to be but usually from people i meet they seem to be at one with their one element. Look up your date birth and find your element: fire, water,air, or earth. I was an earth and loves being in nature. I loved the other elements too but only the earth could relax my energies, I don't know why. What I'm saying is theoretical, however my girlfriend is the same. She is a water element and can only find that relaxation in water.
> 
> ...


Hey what is with the non-weight? I prefer to do bodybuilding workout at home, is it bad for energy wise, lifting weights? Or running, cycling aerobic ones better?


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## tikobird (Feb 26, 2008)

I've been in this discussion and viewed it yesterday. Why don't I see any of my replies now? I came here today to locate my last response to no avail. Is there something I need to do to see my part of the discussion?


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## tikobird (Feb 26, 2008)

brightmorningstar said:


> Hey what is with the non-weight? I prefer to do bodybuilding workout at home, is it bad for energy wise, lifting weights? Or running, cycling aerobic ones better?


I was very depressed and much more anxious until I joined a small family owned gym. They have personal training, yoga, pilates, and Zumba. If I make excuses for me not to go or procrastinate and stay home it's much more depressing and all I focus on is my anxiety and depersonalization. Focusing on those makes them worse. This morning I worked out for 45 minutes with weights and then went to a very high-intensity Zumba class. I love to dance and it burns calories. I find all this builds a good feeling in my mind and body. It also increases the endorphins. I do sometimes have to tell myself to stop making excuses. I actually change my thoughts which say "I can't or I won't" have fun, be happy or whatever you tell yourself. I do force myself in a way. Because you think something doesn't mean it's true. It's beneficial to move rather than to analyze everything.


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## brightmorningstar (Jun 8, 2018)

tikobird said:


> I have one question about what he's said. How can an infant or child cause their own depression if they're born into a dysfunctional family who ignores them? Most animals don't do well if left alone either. Isolation has a huge impact on most mammals. I'll be back for more conversation. Elephants remain in a family based group and when a young one is hurt or can't walk they all try to help. I might be missing a point here. Children don't learn love if ignored. They have no models to base their actions on. They're basically fending for themselves. I think there's a great disparity here.
> 
> I'm always open to new data so your response is welcome. I know it's up to us, later on, to create our own feelings and observe things differently. We need the tools given to us to change anything but we are able to change.


These are all true tikobird, but what you can do? Can you time travel back and change the way your parents behaved to you? No. Do you want to save yourself or do you want another thing? That is a really deep question because there are millions of people who think they want to be saved/cured but deep down they don't and they won't take the path to the resolution, believe me I've seen so many. Humans are complex creatures, you don't hear to understand what they want, you observe them. It's the same with yourself. You observe yourself for to know what you really think and want.

I mean yeah you're right my family was dysfunctional too, but in the end what can you do about, it is the question. I can't see what you want to know from here. Well yeah childs don't make them self depressed. But later on they do. You ever heard of autosuggestion? We are made of bunch of autosuggestions. You're repeating your mother's father's words which they said to you as a child now. But you don't even know it! Like you're worthless you're piece of shit. What I mean is that you repeat the same patterns they instilled in your brain, you embrace their thoughts and their behaviours towards you as the basis of all human interaction. These are deep stuff and I can give you some books if you want to really change yourself etc. Or I can continue on if this made any sense to you. I don't know really, I can write here over and over , and you may get suscipicous and say oh no people are depressed because of their families and that would be a waste of time for me to write at all.

One last thing is that, I also thought I was trying to change myself for 1-2 year, after observing myself, I was not doing anything to help myself even tho I was really struggling to the healing. We are in the cycle of suffering, that is what I came to learn. We are here on this earth and %99 people are suffering in this way or another. Like we are bound to suffer. You must start to observe yourself to really know what is going on in your mind. I can write more if you're interested I gotta go now. I've come to learn all these after heavy observation of my actions thoughts and responses in my body. And after reading some of Jordan Peterson's work, I've really seen that most people don't know what they really think. And that corrected my view.


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## Sean1997- (Nov 9, 2015)

brightmorningstar said:


> Hey what is with the non-weight? I prefer to do bodybuilding workout at home, is it bad for energy wise, lifting weights? Or running, cycling aerobic ones better?


I think it was more to do with the fact that I had blood pooling in my legs, and if I focused all my exercises on my legs, my entire cardiovascular system wouldmnt be working at it's entirety, flowing around my whole body. My legs would pool more,and id feel worse after weight bearing things like running and free weights.

I believe weights can be a good exercise because of you utilising force around the whole body with certain exercises. However for me personally, it was too exhausting.

Cycling for me was the best because I was using all my body, arms, legs and my core at all times. So blood was flowing round the whole body,at all times- same with swimming. And it wasn't too exhausting.

And as I stated before I believe the physical and energy field are simultaneously interlinked. Therefore the blood flow reciprocates the start of the energetic flow. Therefore, I felt it cleared my blocked energies in my legs, heart and crown chakra, as the blood flow was better. My blood pressure reading, 2 weeks ago was normal for the 1st time in 3 years. I get no palpitations anymore and it only started to get better once I did cycling, my condition eased too.

However each individual is different, so if you are doing things like rowing and utilising the bike at the gym, as well as squatting (all which encourage blood flow around the whole cardiovascular system. I believe symptoms will improve.


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## Sean1997- (Nov 9, 2015)

I had a condition called POTS, a blood pressure condition as well as this condition, however they came at the same time. One obviously is just a symptom of the other. Just thought I'd let you know why o had blood pooling.


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## tikobird (Feb 26, 2008)

brightmorningstar said:


> These are all true tikobird, but what you can do? Can you time travel back and change the way your parents behaved to you? No. Do you want to save yourself or do you want another thing? That is a really deep question because there are millions of people who think they want to be saved/cured but deep down they don't and they won't take the path to the resolution, believe me I've seen so many. Humans are complex creatures, you don't hear to understand what they want, you observe them. It's the same with yourself. You observe yourself for to know what you really think and want.
> 
> I mean yeah you're right my family was dysfunctional too, but in the end what can you do about, it is the question. I can't see what you want to know from here. Well yeah childs don't make them self depressed. But later on they do. You ever heard of autosuggestion? We are made of bunch of autosuggestions. You're repeating your mother's father's words which they said to you as a child now. But you don't even know it! Like you're worthless you're piece of shit. What I mean is that you repeat the same patterns they instilled in your brain, you embrace their thoughts and their behaviours towards you as the basis of all human interaction. These are deep stuff and I can give you some books if you want to really change yourself etc. Or I can continue on if this made any sense to you. I don't know really, I can write here over and over , and you may get suscipicous and say oh no people are depressed because of their families and that would be a waste of time for me to write at all.
> 
> ...


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## tikobird (Feb 26, 2008)

I just wrote a lengthy response to yours and somehow it disappeared. I must have entered it incorrectly. I'll have to get back to you on this discussion. Basically, I was agreeing with you and so on. I wrote more but it magically disappeared.


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## ThoughtOnFire (Feb 10, 2015)

tikobird said:


> I just wrote a lengthy response to yours and somehow it disappeared. I must have entered it incorrectly. I'll have to get back to you on this discussion. Basically, I was agreeing with you and so on. I wrote more but it magically disappeared.


Is that your response there -within- the quoted text from brightmorningstar?


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## PerfectFifth (May 2, 2016)

I could've very well been a different person before DP/DR struck me. I've become a vastly deeper thinker as a result, and I've learned to see the benefits of psychological suffering and how it causes personal growth. I haven't experienced any supernatural "enlightenment", though. It's an interesting thought to entertain, though, that maybe it's some trial we were put on.


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## Layne (Jul 12, 2019)

tikobird said:


> I hope the EMDR can help me stop disliking myself so I can feel like I belong somewhere.


Hi @Tikobird -- Your comment reminded me of this *STORY.* It's an account of how one man found a way to overcome his own sense of low self-esteem. -- Just to mention, the link will take you to the website of a relatively obscure spiritual path/teaching. If this is not your cup of tea, you may not want to check it out. -- All the Best!


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## Layne (Jul 12, 2019)

Sean1997- said:


> Music is a powerful tool that can help your crown chakra. I've found music can unblock that heaviness there, as it's like the ohm sound.


Hi @Sean1997 -- I've been reading your posts on this thread with interest. Since you mentioned the Ohm Sound, I was wondering if you're familiar with the Sound of HU? Here's a link to a 3-minute video on singing the *HU SONG*. It sort of falls into the category of "calming the brain" and "sound therapy", along with it being a spiritual exercise technique. -- It's somewhat similar to singing the sound of OM, but has a higher frequency--and from my experience, is more deeply calming. -- Thanks for your posts on this thread!


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## BHeaton (Oct 12, 2019)

Yes how I became Christian read my profile posts. This site is wayyy to depressing though I can't possibly stand it any further. :/ GOOD LUCK AND WILL PRAY FOR EVERYONE ON THIS SITE. I WISH I could reach out further on here but I made a topic in my recovery


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## tikobird (Feb 26, 2008)

Sean1997- said:


> I completely agree with what both of you are saying. And in no way, in what I'm going to say disagreeing with you. However, too much meditation can build up too much energy in the body, in which it can't be released. I've experienced this, the brain fog will come up on me if I meditate too much in a particular time frame.
> 
> The important thing is balance. Nature, the earth is a thing you ground yourself and neutralise these energies. Meditation is amazing for what it enables one to do, but it needs to be kept at a reasonable rate. I believe non weight bearing exercises (I.e cycling and swimming) can help alleviate that energy and keep you grounded, as well as walking. However, in my experience cycling was the best, I have always lived it too.
> 
> So my advice would be to carry on doing the meditation, but don't become dependent on it to escape your feelings. And do productive things also to keep you grounded.


Where do you get that information from? I was taught to do guided meditation by a therapist who's adopted Buddhism as his focus. There's no mention of "too much meditation" mentioned online or by therapists. Guided or otherwise known as mindful meditation is for the purpose of quieting the mind and keeping you in the moment. For those with anxiety or who tend to ruminate on thoughts that's precisely what's beneficial. Have you spoken to therapists about this? Most tend to deal with meditation and/or mindfulness now. To be mindful simply means to be present, in the moment


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

tikobird said:


> Where do you get that information from? I was taught to do guided meditation by a therapist who's adopted Buddhism as his focus. There's no mention of "too much meditation" mentioned online or by therapists. Guided or otherwise known as mindful meditation is for the purpose of quieting the mind and keeping you in the moment. For those with anxiety or who tend to ruminate on thoughts that's precisely what's beneficial. Have you spoken to therapists about this? Most tend to deal with meditation and/or mindfulness now. To be mindful simply means to be present, in the moment


I learned meditation in a tibetan buddhist center, I followed a lot of in-person teachings during 6 years and several short and long retreats up to one month. The practice that was taught was shamatha-vipassana, which is kind of concentration + passive awareness.

(After some years I realized there was a strong cult dynamics, although what was taught was genuine buddhism, probably in a better way than other schools in the sense that it was more experiencial and less intelectual. I know now that all the tools to make a cult are already present in genuine buddhism, so I am rather vaccinated against buddhism in general now, but still the following is what I learned there)

The teachers regularly taught about the problem of ruminations. First, meditation can sometimes reduce the amount of ruminations but not always. The first thing is that the objective of meditation should not be to have less ruminations during the practice or as a result of the pactice session, the point of meditation is to familiarize oneself with our own mind as it is and not to try to change it. But on the long term meditation can help taking some steps back from our thoughts and be less tricked by them, which means we can believe our ruminations much less and we can consciously stop feeding them when we become conscious that we are doing it. As such, meditation can have a preventive effect against depression for example, where ruminations can have an important effect. At least this is what the teachers were all repeating. But there is a limit to everything, it depends how much practice you have and how many ruminations you are dealing with. This is why they said that meditation has a preventive effect, but they strongly advised not to practice meditation when we are in depression, because we start observing our ruminations and it can give them even more power when we are beginning. For a lot of people, practicing meditation is actually impossible for this reason, for a lot of people problems are amplified, and it's not because they don't follow the instructions. It's as if you learn boxing, after many years maybe you will become a very good boxer and be able to fight professional boxers and sometimes win, or at least learn something from them. But if your first oponent in your very first fight is Mike Tyson you will get destroyed immediately, you will learn nothing and you can even get seriously hurt. So it's just an example to say that if something works for a small problem doesn't mean it will work for a big problem, even if it is a problem of the same nature.

Also meditation isn't necessarily good if you are prone to psychosis. I know that some form of meditation is practiced in some mental institutions with actually psychotic people without any problem, but I have met two people who had a psychotic breakdown related to meditation during a program, including one who attempted suicide as a result. So it can depend on what meditation is practiced, and if you practice without supervision it is very easy (at least it was for me) to make up your own version of meditation that is "better than others" and drift into your own stuff. There are also many who think that meditation will have a preventive effect for their disease and who stop taking their medication. It happened often enough that at programs they had to ask everyone to list the medication they were taking, if any, and ask them to please keep taking it throughout the program. Nevertheless it still keeps happening, perhaps because in many places there are still people selling meditation as a cure for everything.

I googled "meditation depression risk" and this is one of the first links I have found: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

And about the feeling of the world being real or not I don't think DPDR helps achieving the same thing as meditation or buddhist teachings. I even think it is quite the opposite, but it's only my opinion. When I started practicing meditation in that center in ~2012 I had experiences where I felt more real. It was only affecting some aspects of my DPDR, but it was definitely going in the direction of being more in contact with stuff around me and less in my unreal head (I felt more present and more in contact, but the contact itself still felt unreal, if that makes any sense. Like I was more "present" to everything and less daydreaming, but still not much touched or in contact with what I was present to). My understanding of the buddhist teachings I followed is that the concept of "emptiness" doesn't mean that things are not real, but that _concepts_ have no reality. When they say that this or that doesn't exist, they mean the concept of this or that doesn't exist and if you remove all concepts there is only perception left, like a flow. This is what they mean, I think, when they say that we don't see the world but only our perceptions. The stuff, or concept, is something artificial. We should not get rid of it but remember it is only what it is. Well, I don't know if this makes sense. It's a bit like regrets, when you ruminate about the past and make up an alternative story of what you should have done. It's like trying to undo what has already been done, and it's impossible but we still sometimes try to do it if only in our thoughts, because we somehow kind of confuse our thoughts with the real world and we fight with it. We forget that the situation in our head is not real. I think it is this kind of thing, but applied to smaller and smaller elemental bricks of our mind. But it doesn't mean you are in the right when you feel unreal. At least for me, when I feel unreal, I feel totally lost in concepts, so much that I get farther and farther from my direct perceptions. Like people who feel like their is a veil between them and reality, they get cut off from their perceptions. Or some people who describe DR as looking at the world through a tainted glass, watching their own reflection at the same time. For me this is being cut off from my perceptions and being lost in my thoughts and in concepts.

They also have something saying that the sense of identity isn't real (the five skandhas), but still I don't think it is the same as DP although I wouldn't be surprised if they used experiences of DP as an artificial means to help reaching that conclusion. Sadly, in the cult where I was, they used such experiences to have more control on people. After meditation or "impressive experiences", people were more prone to change their mind about the master, thinking that "maybe yes, we can explore the artificial nature of right and wrong, and perhaps we are upset at the master for committing sexual assaults just because of our preconceived ideas of what a master should be like, so now we should try to deconstruct these preconceived ideas as well and blame those who criticize him for not being elightened enough and for not being able to deconstruct their reactions". There would be so much to say about this...


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## leminaseri (Jul 1, 2020)

Trith said:


> I learned meditation in a tibetan buddhist center, I followed a lot of in-person teachings during 6 years and several short and long retreats up to one month. The practice that was taught was shamatha-vipassana, which is kind of concentration + passive awareness.
> 
> (After some years I realized there was a strong cult dynamics, although what was taught was genuine buddhism, probably in a better way than other schools in the sense that it was more experiencial and less intelectual. I know now that all the tools to make a cult are already present in genuine buddhism, so I am rather vaccinated against buddhism in general now, but still the following is what I learned there)
> 
> ...


im just curious, how long was your longest period when you never had one thought about derealization?


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## Trith (Dec 31, 2019)

leminaseri said:


> im just curious, how long was your longest period when you never had one thought about derealization?


I'm not sure. On the worst times I know it was on my mind constantly and very strongly of course, and for maybe 6 - 7 years it was not my priority, but still I had not given up on recovery and it was there once in a while, i don't really know how often. What about you?


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## leminaseri (Jul 1, 2020)

Trith said:


> I'm not sure. On the worst times I know it was on my mind constantly and very strongly of course, and for maybe 6 - 7 years it was not my priority, but still I had not given up on recovery and it was there once in a while, i don't really know how often. What about you?


in the past i did it one time constantly for 2,5 years and i recovered then. in my second episode (now) there is not a single day where i didnt think about dpdr


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