# If I was blind



## York (Feb 26, 2008)

Sorry in advance for this post, it's bonkers and I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say.
I've just been noticing that if I close my eyes, it's harder to detect weather I'm dp'd. I struggle with the feeling my environment seem unfamiliar, and this of course, is not too easy to notice whilst "blind".
I'm wondering (sorry again if completely, utterly braindead), has dp got anything to do with eyesight/link between eyes/brain/perception/you-know-what-I-mean?

_Is there blind people with dp_, and what would that be like?


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## Mcren (Mar 30, 2009)

Wow york, im surprised no one else else posted anything else like this, but to me it also seems like when I close my eyes and for short periods after I wake up in the morning I feel almost normal. Not sure what the reasoning for this might be other than if dp/dr is related to how the brain percepts light and in that case this whole dp thing could just be an issue with eye sight, who knows?


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## Claymore (Jun 13, 2009)

I have also noticed this. Maybe the DP scientists should check the eyes out.


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## mightyship (Jul 19, 2008)

i dunno if it's relevant but blind people experience deja vu i found a link but i can't post it


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## Claymore (Jun 13, 2009)

mightyship said:


> i dunno if it's relevant but blind people experience deja vu i found a link but i can't post it


yeah you have to have at least 50 posts to post links.


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## York (Feb 26, 2008)

I don't really think it has anything to do with eye-sight per se, but with perception. 
You look around, and your brain perceives reality in a certain way. Let's say you normally would use 100% of your emotional capacity evenly distributed throughout your brain, and whilst having dp, you use 90% of this on anxious responses, thus making you lose some of the emotional connection you normally would have to your surroundings. This would in turn change your experience of reality dramatically, especially with the other sensations of anxiety on top. If you don't see, it would be much harder to notice this disconnection, and you wouldn't start the obsessive thought process.

This also kinda explains why more anxiety creates an increased sense of disconnection...

What do you think?


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2009)

I think that you are onto the truth. I believe that Depersonalization is in some way or another either a 'disconnect' or 'rewiring' of the Mind (Perceptions) with the Body (Perceiving) and the Environment (Perceived). I've been working on "feeling objects" including my shoes with my feet while I'm going about my day. I focus on shifting the direction of my perception of whatever is I am feeling (objects) outwards - towards that thing. I recognized around 3 weeks ago that when I was feeling things whilst going through Depersonalization - I was somehow withdrawn within myself - and when I touched something - say the desk - I was feeling my hand - instead of feeling the desk - which gave the experience that I was disconnected from my body. As soon as I directed my perception outwards towards the desk - and I felt the desk - then I experienced my hand. That is why I say the eye cannot see the eye - the hand cannot feel the hand. I believe we are withdrawn into our senses - chasing our own tails. And because we don't experience the perceptions outwardly - it gives rise to the experience of being dissociated from or even in more chronic cases - outside of - ones own body. As soon as I started practicing feeling outwards towards whatever I was touching - my other senses - eyesight - hearing - etc - all starting shifting outwards too - and DP has greatly subsided - I'd say I've reached 60-80% where I have had Chronic DPD for 6 years 24/7/365 up until I started to do this mental exercise. I call it Psychophysical Therapy (Rehabilitating the Psyche/Physical Connect) - Albeit Self Diagnosed and Practiced Therapy. Cheers.

-Thoughts


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## York (Feb 26, 2008)

O.k, we're sort of talking about the same thing. It's proven that high levels of anxiety will cause you to "disconnect" so that's not up for debate. What you say about re-directing your thoughts is true, because you won't be able to think several thoughts simultaneously, meaning that when you feed your mind with impulses of physical feelings over time, it will strengthen these paths in your brain and weaken the anxious thoughts. It's that simple.

Let's say it is like this: Your cognition (thoughts right), over-rules everything, body and mind.
Your biology comes second, but have the power to change your thoughts.

So, due to thoughts/experiences you've had, you get anxious. You then disconnect when you get stuck in that mode for too long. Naturally, you'll get scared.

ANXIETY -> DISCONNECTION -> FEAR -> MORE ANXIETY -> STRONGER DISCONNECTION -> FEAR (and so forth)

You disconnect, look around, it looks strange, you get scared and question if you're losing your mind, you get more anxious.
Now it's no longer only a biological response like nature intended it to be, you've added your cognition into the soup and you get increasingly more anxious. What happens over time is something more severe: You'll start to re-code (if that's even a word) your core-believes. You believe now, you are truly mad, and will never recover. You're web of anxious thoughts gets increasingly tighter woven, and the circle smaller. You're stuck. There isn't room for any other thoughts or beliefs and when you look around everything confirms what you "know".

What if you somehow managed to set yourself apart from the symptoms? Would that make the anxiety levels drop and in turn lessen the dissociation? If someone threw bricks at you every other second for a year, what would your thoughts and expectations with life be? Of course, it'd be _I'll wake up and that bastard will throw a brick at my head_. It's been that way _forever._ 
What if then, someone gave you a shield, and pointed out you could fight this guy, that he might be there because you don't lock your door and he likes the attention even if it's you screaming profanities at him, _then what?_
Maybe something deep within would change, and you'd have the insight and belief you could in fact, wake up without brick-marks on your forehead.

Does this sound at all plausible to you...? I'm as lost as you are, happy to hear your thoughts on the matter.


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## DownTheRabbitHole (May 30, 2009)

''If someone threw bricks at you every other second for a year, what would your thoughts and expectations with life be? Of course, it'd be I'll wake up and that bastard will throw a brick at my head. It's been that way forever.
What if then, someone gave you a shield, and pointed out you could fight this guy, that he might be there because you don't lock your door and he likes the attention even if it's you screaming profanities at him, then what?
Maybe something deep within would change, and you'd have the insight and belief you could in fact, wake up without brick-marks on your forehead.''

i was reading my sisters pyschology book last night, and /\ above. sounds like an experiment that was carried out on dogs, with electric shocks, and how one knew how to escape it, but one never so just dealt with it, and was depressed, whereas the other one, learned how to jump to the other side of the cage, even jumping before the shocks happened.

going to be reading more, try and get more insight into things which may be connected to myself.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

One neuroimaging study of the depersonalized brain have shown abnormalities in the areas ( BA 7B, 39) that integrate somatosensory information, which could account for perceptual changes and feelings of unreality.

Simeon, D., Guralnik, O., Hazlett, E., Spiegel-Cohen, J., Hollander, E. & Buchsbaum, M. (2000) Feeling unreal: a PET study of depersonalization disorder. The American Journal of Psychiatry, 157, 1782-1788.


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## York (Feb 26, 2008)

egodeath said:


> One neuroimaging study of the depersonalized brain have shown abnormalities in the areas ( BA 7B, 39) that integrate somatosensory information, which could account for perceptual changes and feelings of unreality.
> 
> Simeon, D., Guralnik, O., Hazlett, E., Spiegel-Cohen, J., Hollander, E. & Buchsbaum, M. (2000) Feeling unreal: a PET study of depersonalization disorder. The American Journal of Psychiatry, 157, 1782-1788.


That's very interesting. Well we all know _something_ isn't working right, so it's bound to be detectable in some way.

It's my opinion that most scientists will put the cart in front of the horse when it comes to this though..
Your thoughts influence your biology, if you think happy thoughts, it shows on brain scans. Dp'd people think themselves nuts, and it's a rare, or not very re-searched condition, so it will seem like abnormalities are occurring. Well duh. If you sense something totally bonkers, there's bound to light up areas in your head that isn't in use when you are feeling fine.

It's not biology causing detachment, it's _you_ causing it in response to your surroundings. Excluding head trauma from the equation.

Over time, of course, it is possible for changes in function to become permanent, thoughts will certainly change matter, but I believe almost everything is reversible if it's not head-injury or severe neglect from infancy.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

york said:


> egodeath said:
> 
> 
> > One neuroimaging study of the depersonalized brain have shown abnormalities in the areas ( BA 7B, 39) that integrate somatosensory information, which could account for perceptual changes and feelings of unreality.
> ...


I don't think voluntary thought affects the particular areas of the brain that the study mentions. Thinking you're nuts and having abnormalities in the somatosensory cortex are in no way connected. As for the permanence of the disorder, sure, any of the changes could be reversible, but that doesn't mean that feelings of unreality aren't neurologically rooted.


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## York (Feb 26, 2008)

NumbNeo said:


> i was reading my sisters pyschology book last night, and /\ above. sounds like an experiment that was carried out on dogs, with electric shocks, and how one knew how to escape it, but one never so just dealt with it, and was depressed, whereas the other one, learned how to jump to the other side of the cage, even jumping before the shocks happened.
> 
> going to be reading more, try and get more insight into things which may be connected to myself.


This is sort of what I tried to explain, the tricky part is really _believing_ you can get better, as with dp, you wont have a physical gateway to jump out of.. I think the deep set beliefs are often over-looked with mental issues, but they have everything to do with recovery I think.

Last time I had dp I got pregnant and just _had to_ get well, in addition to getting obsessed about pregnancy instead of dp, and I had a rapid recovery.

Now that I've got it again, I'm thinking it's something I have to struggle with for life, that it's somehow just my "fate", it's a disorder and it's so just my luck and blah blah... I can't seem to get my hopes up like the last time. Last time I was so happy I found this forum, and I felt I could fight this crap. I've lost hope now and I'm struggling to get it back because I believe that is THE key, in addition to having a good stable day-to-day life.


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## York (Feb 26, 2008)

Egodeath, thoughts aren't just thoughts, they'll conjure up all sorts of chemical responses in your body, and they will build pathways in your brain, making it physically grow to a certain point in life. Deprivation of certain stimuli will halt it's development. It's a known fact that your environment will change your biological make-up, it's how we are shaped from infancy.


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## DownTheRabbitHole (May 30, 2009)

york our views are becoming more similar as the day goes on, i really start to notice changes, when my mind isnt on DP, and im thinking happy positive thoughts.
but another breakthrough for me, is that i dont dwell for long on negative DP thoughts anymore, albeit i still think of DP alot, but more positive and the results are much better than they have ever been before, if i stop smoking weed, i can almost get that clear clarity back, but i always smoke weed again. its like im scared to give it up just yet, as i have nothing to fill the void that plays a big part in my life.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

york said:


> Egodeath, thoughts aren't just thoughts, they'll conjure up all sorts of chemical responses in your body, and they will build pathways in your brain, making it physically grow to a certain point in life. Deprivation of certain stimuli will halt it's development. It's a known fact that your environment will change your biological make-up, it's how we are shaped from infancy.


I'm not disputing that at all. It's just that BA 7B and BA 39 are almost purely sensory processing areas. I do not think they are under conscious control and thus I don't think they can exhibit a placebo effect.


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## York (Feb 26, 2008)

Don't you think it might be a chain-reaction, like one thing leading to another? I really don't know, I'm just skeptical to the idea dp is caused by a defect if you know what I mean. But I've heard childhood trauma alters your brain permanently so who knows what the truth is. I certainly have some "weakness" causing me to dp again and again...


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

Here is a download-link to the article in question. Thanks to you know who you are.

http://hotfile.com/dl/10340463/7d46a90/ ... r.pdf.html

Im too fucked up to write more atm, will return to this topic.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2009)

I keep wondering if I am just reversing the direct effects/symptoms of DP but not addressing the Root Cause because I will be feeling objects and my perceptions will start becoming realer and realer but then if I stop I bounce right back into Depersonalization. Thoughts?


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## York (Feb 26, 2008)

Hmm.. I have the same thing. I can only really refer to the last time I recovered, but then I noticed how reading to my kid made me focus outwards and I felt better whilst doing it. I kept trying to distract myself with things like that, anything to pull myself out of the bubble, and my symptoms lessened over three months time, and then one day dp wasn't noticeable anymore.

Like I've said, I think doing things over time "learns" your brain to think about those things instead of your problems. In my opinion digging for a root cause may only make things worse, by reminding you and keeping fresh in your mind what you struggle with. You can heal by leading a good life you enjoy, and facing your fears as you go along. In my case, becoming older and more experienced took care of some of my anxieties on it's own, you get a different perspective on things as you mature.

If you really think you have an underlying issue, you should seek help from a psychologist, or admit to yourself there is something you need to do, and do it.

Well, now I'm dp's again, so who knows. Maybe anxiety just trigger it without it being a whole bunch of stuff beneath the surface...


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## dreamingoflife (Oct 22, 2006)

I seem to have dp with eyes open or closed. At times if dp is high if I close my eyes it makes it 10x worse. I guess I am the odd ball :roll:


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## jasongitar (Aug 18, 2004)

I agree, when I close my eyes I get more dp'd its almost like my mind starts to imagine worse since there is nothing to look at it and I start thinking more in a dp state, as soon as I open my eyes I sense a form of reality again and feel more real even though everything in my perception looks somewhat unreal. If I stand up and start moving things start to appear more real as well.


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## York (Feb 26, 2008)

Dp is different for everyone. When it was at it's worst with me, I almost didn't dare to close my eyes at night to sleep.
I guess what I'm saying is, if it's something in your surroundings that triggers your anxiety, it might keep the dp present to a larger degree than if you could just.. Not see. I mean, when I first got it, my anxiety was so bad, I could look around and things got less familiar by the second and I freaked out. If I was blind (this is ridiculous sorry) I don't think I'd gotten to that point.
I'm just curious how that would unfold. Any blind ones here? Guess it's not the right place...
I'll let it go...


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## dreamingoflife (Oct 22, 2006)

I was thinking not too long ago (one of the many things that go through this tired brain) about how bad it would be to be blind and suffer dpdr. I get what you are saying though. I can handle dp for the most part fairly well but if I were blind as well someone would have to shoot me because I couldn't handle that at all. Takes a strong person for that and I am a weakling.


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

You are not a weakling. You are one of the stronger people I have spoken to. Just think about what you manage to accomplish on a daily/weekly/monthly basis!

Never doubt yourself, this goes for everyone here.

Be well everyone.

Peace.

/Chris


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## York (Feb 26, 2008)

I was just thinking out loud with all this really... Dp or any psychological problem is hard enough without additional handicaps or whatever. I'm just trying to figure out how to get rid of it. Trad CBT isn't doing it for me, but I'm sure there must be exercises that does- like the old rubber-band-around-your-wrist to help with OCD, you know, _something._..

Please for the love of God don't think this thread had ANYTHING to do with blindness...


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

Could it be possible this has to do with sleep? How many people here suffer with insomnia? Could it be why you feel better with your eyes closed?


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## York (Feb 26, 2008)

No. That's impossible.

:lol:


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## Claymore (Jun 13, 2009)

Conjurus said:


> Could it be possible this has to do with sleep? How many people here suffer with insomnia? Could it be why you feel better with your eyes closed?


I dont know if I have insomnia but it seems that when I lay down im really tired, but I lay awake for 2 or 3 hours with exestential thoughts flooding my mind until finally I get some control over it and am able to fall asleep. :shock: Truthfully, I do feel somewhat better when I close my eyes because I cant see the dissconnection but I can still feel it so its 50/50 for me because they are equal to me, seeing it and feeling it.


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## York (Feb 26, 2008)

Thank you Clayboy, at least you get my point!


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## Claymore (Jun 13, 2009)

york said:


> Thank you Clayboy, at least you get my point!


No problamo hun. :wink:


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

york said:


> Thank you Clayboy, at least you get my point!


I get it


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