# "RAEL" What do you guys think about this Anti-Chri



## MrMortgage

http://www.rael.org/

Have you guys heard about this guy! He is building an embasy (did I spell that right?) for the aliens to land....

This guy is serious and he is trying to clone a human being....

He might be one of the many anti-christ to come, or maybe THEE anti-christ.

Check it out, you might become a RAEL beliver LOL :roll:


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## peacedove

Creepy.


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## Homeskooled

Yeah, they've been trying to get eternal life by cloning your body, then "dowloading" the contents of your brain into the clone's body, thus perpetuating your "self" forever. They were in the news in the US quite a while ago, and I dont think their idea of "downloading" consciousness is anywhere near possible - ever. The only idea thats been proposed that could work is a total body transplant, ie, from the neck down, or a brain transplant. But eventually, of course, the brain will age even if the body doesnt. We have 12 talomeres in our DNA and one falls off every ten years. Your brain wont make it past 120 years old. Anyways, I dont think the guy is anywhere near smart enough to be the antichrist. Good scam artist, thought. He's making oodles of money.

For what its worth, supposedly a group of Jewish influentials near Jerusalem has come up with the raw materials to make a prefabricated Solomon's temple. Supposedly they could get it up in a couple weeks time if the conditions were right. I dont have any confirmation on this, so it could just be one of those evangelical rumors. Sadaam Hussein, however, DID find Babylon, and began work on excavating it some time ago. Add to that, that as Rev posted, information would be greatly increased in the final days, and these things seem to appear a little eerie. I used to campaign in a hugely influential Jewish area of Pittsburgh - its the third largest Jewish epicenter after New York and Jersusalem, New York being numero uno. And most of the Jewish people I spoke to were still expecting the "Messiah" to come soon. They had signs above their doors that said to prepare for his coming. And its interesting to note that their idea of the Messiah is the same thing they were expecting 2000 years ago, and still the antithesis of Christ. It was explained to me that he would be wealthy, handsome, have great knowledge and power, would clear up questions which modern life have raised in Jewish law, and would unite the world under him, in Jerusalem. And of course, there would be a great battle in the world over this, but he would win. Now their "messiah" sounds eerily like the Antichrist, and that last battle sounds eerily like the Apocaplyse. They too think this man is coming soon. Thats a good bit of the world expecting something written in religious prophesy simultaneously. Who knows? Perhaps the state of Israel is the begining of this. I'm actually all for the state of Israel, but it still may be a signpost along the way. Funny, though. You'd think they would have dropped the wishing for the slick and powerful long ago after seeing how these kinds of men do the most damage in the world. I would have thought that they would be looking for the "peaceful resistance" type such as Mahatma Gandhi or Christ....but the Jewish people evidently have clung to this. All in all, though, whether you are one of those people that enjoys end-times hysteria ( I dont ) these all are interesting developments.

Does anyone here know according to the book of Revelations if the armies of the earth will conquer the Antichrist? If I remember correctly, they are actually defeated, the two prophets are killed, and after there is great rejoicing at their deaths, the Antichrist is killed through an act of God, after which there is a period of peace on earth, followed by the "end" during this time. I could be wrong, however, as I've read so many different interpretations.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## MrMortgage

Homeskooled said:


> Does anyone here know according to the book of Revelations if the armies of the earth will conquer the Antichrist? If I remember correctly, they are actually defeated, the two prophets are killed, and after there is great rejoicing at their deaths, the Antichrist is killed through an act of God, after which there is a period of peace on earth, followed by the "end" during this time. I could be wrong, however, as I've read so many different interpretations.
> 
> Peace
> Homeskooled


Well in Revelations the antichist is said to speak through policy (politics) and basically everything else you said homeskooled...anyway for the most part what I read is that the antichrist will fight with the Russians and China, and Jesus will come on his white horse and crush em' all.

So basically China will rise up and kick some major but and Jesus will come down with the power of heaven and hell and crush em ' all and the antichrist and all the non belivers will be sucked up in to the pits of hell.

Boy that sounds fun.... :roll:


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## widescreened

Very dangerously one dimensional mr mortgage.This stereotyping of nations as good or evil is crazy.Are you the type of person that goes to wwf and believes the wrestlers are for real and not acting?do you cheer the good guy and boo the bad guy?I bet you do.


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## Martinelv

> Very dangerously one dimensional mr mortgage.This stereotyping of nations as good or evil is crazy.Are you the type of person that goes to wwf and believes the wrestlers are for real and not acting?do you cheer the good guy and boo the bad guy?I bet you do.


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry, don't take offence Mr Mortgage.


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## MrMortgage

widescreened said:


> Very dangerously one dimensional mr mortgage.This stereotyping of nations as good or evil is crazy.Are you the type of person that goes to wwf and believes the wrestlers are for real and not acting?do you cheer the good guy and boo the bad guy?I bet you do.


LOL hey! It's not my plan...its what the book says...I just read it. To be honest I like asian people, and I think China is cool....It's not up to me, it's up to God...If he want's to crush China, that's his idea not mine.

On a side note, my friend is really scientific and doesnt really believe in God. I was talking to him about what the bible says about Russia and China and he thought it was kinda funny it said that considering he seen a video on the interent of a powerful chinese general explaining to troops that China is going to need more space and North America is looking like the right place (Canada) also that they are developing a virus that will be engineered to kill the white race...We are the ultimate race...Sounding really Hitler like......Once China found out that this video got out, this general was fired!

For some reason right now China is building up its army like crazy and they are coming up in economic power.... The USA sent Rumsfied over to China the other day to talk about just this....The USA is thinking of trying to make a peace treaty with China....and if that fails then there might be a peace time draft over here in the USA....

Like I said, I dont have control of what is written in the bible, and what the world is doing....Boy I wish I did though, I'd make myself rich and I'd have like 5 wives...LOL :lol:


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## MrMortgage

^
^
^OH by the way...the bible hinting about this is just too vague by the way :roll: For it to really be a REAL prediction the Bible would have to say a date and time for this war to start, other then that its bull crap. :roll:

Another hint that something big is going to happen.... :idea:

What is faith? Faith ='s some bull crap word that people use to brainwash other people. :roll:

For me to believe what the bible says, It would have to be an exact obvious truth and predictions of the future or its just Bull CRAP..... :roll:

If the bible gets its halfway right then it was just LUCK :roll:

Oh we cant think of Nostradamus as a prophet, his prediction was 2 years off! What a loser! Anybody can guess that! :roll:

^
^
^
^
That sounds just like a few people on this forum :wink: I'm just having a little fun with you guys! :twisted:


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## Guest

Ever heard of Edgar Cayce? He predicted many things that eventually came true such as the great depression, the rise and fall of hitler, world war II, the discovery of the dead sea scrolls, The Dp epidemic etc....What is interesting is that it has been confirmed that he did indeed predict these things and gave broad descriptions of what would happen several years before they happened. The one last thing that he was told was that Jesus would return in 1998. He said he would come back as he came back the first time..Something to think about, if you are a spiritual person at all..Not that I can say I am a believer in it, but I sure wouldn't mind if that indeed were the case.


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## MrMortgage

widescreened said:


> Very dangerously one dimensional mr mortgage.This stereotyping of nations as good or evil is crazy.Are you the type of person that goes to wwf and believes the wrestlers are for real and not acting?do you cheer the good guy and boo the bad guy?I bet you do.


WWF is not real? YOU LIAR, OF COURSE IT'S REAL.... LOL JUST LIKE THE TOOTH FAIRY AND THE BOOGIE MAN.... :lol:


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## widescreened

indeed.


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## Guest

homeskooled makes an interesting point, that the Jewish messiah will be viewed as the Christian Antichrist, and vice versa; remember that the Jewish authorities in Jesus' time believed him to be aligned with and derive his power from Satan.

Sabbatai Zvi, 17th century claimant to the title of the Jewish messiah, was declared the Antichrist by the Vatican.

In Hebrew each letter has a numerical value; aleph is 1, bet 2, etc; there is no "W" in Hebrew so when English is phonetically transliterated to Hebrew, the "W" is done so as "V" (vav), the numerical value of which is 6. So "www," such as is found in URLs would be transliterated as "vav vav vav--" "6-6-6."


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## MrMortgage

But seriously! That is an interesting point! In my honest opinion the world was a better place like 100 years ago! Humans are too smart for their own good man!

Think about it, what advanced species would develop weapons that would destroy everyone with one touch of a button. That's just stupid.

If there is other aliens out there they know we're going to end of killng ourselves so they stay far away LOL.

HUMANS WILL PROBABLY BE IN A UNIVERSAL BOOK TITLED "DONT LET THIS HAPPEN TO YOURE PLANET" LOL!!!


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## widescreened

where specifically is russia,china or the usa mentioned in the bible?specifics please


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## falling_free

I think russia , china and the usa is mentioned in the bible codes book. which is where pasages from the bible ' revelations' are converted into herbrew through some method.

for example twin towers


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## Monkeydust

Last time I checked the Bible Code said the world was going to end in October 2005.


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## sleepingbeauty

no ways.. seriously?? well some predictions say 2012, 2013, 2035, now its this year last month?? seriously.. did it say that for sure?


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## Guest

You could get a 'secret' code out of the bloody Argos book if you look for what you want to see. :roll:


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## Dreamer

mrmole said:


> You could get a 'secret' code out of the bloody Argos book if you look for what you want to see. :roll:


Thank you, agreed, IMHO. But I'm really shocked by the statement... with all due respect Homeskooled:

Re: this enclave of Jews in PA....


> They had signs above their doors that said to prepare for his coming. And its interesting to note that their idea of the Messiah is the same thing they were expecting 2000 years ago, and still the antithesis of Christ. It was explained to me that he would be wealthy, handsome, have great knowledge and power, would clear up....


I can't even quote all of it. Firstly I have been throwing up all night from the flu. This is good, as it would have started me vomiting anyway....

*This sounds like outright, blantant ANTISEMITISM!* Do you know ANY Jewish people?
Sheesh, I came here to post a little quotation. I should never have started reading this thread.

The Jews are waiting for the ANTICHRIST? OMG ... the most suspect of ANYONE I know who fits the bill on this one is my Fundamentalist Evangelical Baptist Cousin whom I've known my whole life. He scares the HELL out of me. He knows of every Occult Conspiracy known to man and has likewise waiting for the Apocalypse for quite a while. Well he's in his 60s now. But I'm not going to make a generalization about Baptists from him. He is a "Good Christian" person I could count on in a pinch, but of course he doesn't believe in mental illness, etc., etc. I won't even go there.

Firstly, there are SO many sects in all religions including Judaism. This is as blatant a stereotype as others have thrown at Christians. Oh, and I recall the Mormons (Latter Day Saints -- they are ALL SAINTS -- all members of the church) have been waiting for their "special city" and "the End of Days" since John Smith came on the scene in the 1800s (and was subsequently murdered). They're still waiting... how many "prophets" later? Fascinating book about the mystery of that religion "Under the Banner of Heaven" by Jon Krakauer sp?

*At any rate, I know about 25 Jewish people personally off the top of my head as they happen to be my in-laws.* My husband is Jewish, my mother-in-law is (still cruising at 87 with all her buttons), my brother-in-law, and then lets not get into the extended family. My father-in-law is deceased. I have known these people since @ 1989... meeting them at various times since then.

I also worked in Hollywood as a production assistant. The running joke -- even on "The Fall Guy", if anyone remembers that 1980s Top Ten series starring Lee Majors -- was how everyone "above the line" -- that is producers/writers/DPs/many folk in Hollywood are Jewish. So I worked with I don't know how many Jewish people -- my boss, one co-producer was Jewish. Good people. Some jerks some not.

I also worked at a Synagogue Pre-School as the Office Manager -- a Reconstructionist Synagogue .... again there are a million off-shoots of Judaism as there are ANY religion and that includes the NON-THEIST religion Buddhism.

I attended Shabbat services with my boss (and her husband) who became close friends. Worship ervices, parties, etc. were held regularly throughout the 4? years I was there. I attended Synagogue with my husband, various Synagogues in L.A. -- there are some BEAUTIFUL ones. I have heard better "sermons" from Rabbi's -- that brought me to tears, and REALLY got me thinking. No fire and brimstone. Things applying to LIFE HERE, IN THE PRESENT, NO MESSIAH, NO HEAVEN, NO HELL.

I don't recall meeting a Jewish person who was worried about the antichrist.

Los Angeles also has "a lot of Jews", LOL. The Fairfax district. But so does Detroit. I'm from "The East Side" -- I'm a WASP. "The West Side" -- Jewish.

Oh, forgot to say I had a great roommate one year in college who was from New JOISEY who was Jewish, and had many Jewish friends there, AND dated a wonderful Jewish man/journalism student in college and later when I moved to California. I was in TV, he got a job on a paper out there.

OK, enough of that.

All of these people -- some are practicing Jews, some are not. Some partake in only the rituals which are unifying for so many families, just as Christian rituals are.

Oh MY GOD, I can't even discuss this. This is so off the wall.

If you met ANY of the Jewish people I know, firstly some would take deep offense to what you've said, and the rest would laugh it off as absurd.

The Jews I know, believe in focusing on life on EARTH. On "mitzvahs" -- good deeds that DO NOT GET ONE TO HEAVEN, they don't talk of heaven and Hell, or "The Second Coming" -- they read only the Old Testament which in Genesis for example is recognized more as myth and symbol, and other chapters which are seen more as history and lessons in how to be a good human being on Earth. There is also the Torah where Jewish scholars have long examined what is written in the OT, glean lessons from it, try to live best by its tenets.

Of course there are Hassidic Jews, can't attend services there, particularly since I don't speak Hebrew. They essential keep to themselves, don't preach. I'd equate them with the Amish. I don't know enough about them.

This Kaballah business in Hollywood is also a nutty fad of some sort. As ridiculous as Scientology.

Also Jews living abroad, in Israel, or wherever are all different.

I'm done with this. I have paper to shred.

I'm absolutely outraged at this. Also why I should never come into the forum.

Let's just make gross generalizations about everyone and leave it at that. OMG!

Oh, and I'm supposedly Lutheran. My mother was an atheist. And I am an agnostic. That doesn't keep me from attending religious services. I learn something from them.

Oh, this is blather, I give up. I've never typed so fast and FURIOUS in my life.

In :shock: 
D
WE CAN"T MAKE GENERALIZATIONS


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## Dreamer

*OMG, the point being, one group of fanatics does not an entire religion make. And not an entire group of people make.*

This is what you mention, "maybe some sort of urban legend" ... of course. There is so much "urban legend" and crap associated with so many belief systems. Let's add aliens into the mix.

Oh, this is impossible. I am going to vomit again.


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## Homeskooled

Dear Dreamer, 
Sorry. I didnt mean to offend you or anyone who is Jewish. Its just a very widely held belief amongst conservative, Orthodox, and Hassidic Jews. Reformed Jews gave up on most tenets of ancient Judaism a long time ago. I'll give you two short quotes. The first is almost verbatim from the secretary of the Orthodox Synagogue I was trying to attend in Squirrel Hill:



> The man destined to be the Messiah will be a direct descendant of King David (Isaiah 11:1) through the family of Solomon, David's son (1 Chronicles 22:9-l0). He will cause all the world to serve God together (Isaiah 11:2), be wiser than Solomon (Mishnah Torah Repentance 9:2), greater than the patriarchs and prophets (Aggadah Genesis 67), and more honored than kings (Mishnah Sanhedrin 10), for he will reign as king of the world (Pirkei Eliezer).


This is from a website about the Jewish Messiah, written by a Jewish beleiver, in response to the proselytizing of Jews by Evangelicals. Simply plug Jewish Messiah into Yahoo.

The next quote is from Wikipedia:


> "And if a king shall stand up from among the House of David, studying Torah and indulging in commandments like his father David, according to the written and oral Torah, and he will coerce all Israel to follow it and to strengthen its weak points, and will fight Hashem's wars, this one is to be treated as if he were the anointed one. If he succeeded {and won all nations surrounding him. Old prints and mss.} and built a Holy Temple in its proper place and gathered the strayed ones of Israel together, this is indeed the anointed one for certain, and he will mend the entire world to worship the Lord together, as it is stated: "For then I shall turn for the nations a clear tongue, to call all in the Name of the Lord and to worship Him with one shoulder" (Zephaniah 3:9)."


That was a statement from Maimonides, the great Jewish philospher who lived in Medievel Spain around the year 1100. In most other ways, I think he is quite wise, and I have used his arguments from his 13 principles before to defend a beleif in God.

In no way, shape, or form should my beleif that _this_ beleif is a misinterpretation of the Torah be construed as defaming Jews, Judaism, thier Sacred Writings, or their place as the Chosen people. I _do_ beleive that expecting one's problem's to be solved by earthly power is asking for trouble. I dont beleive that this is truly what the Torah teaches. Yes, Dreamer, I know many, many, many Jews. I lived with them. My first roommate in our house in Squirrel Hill was Jewish. My next roommate's girlfriend was Jewish. I tried attending Orthodox Jewish Synagogues to learn the Torah (there is nothing like knowing the actual source material for the Old Testament), I contemplated learning Hebrew. I spoke to them door to door, I saw them as doctors at the hospital, I learned from Jewish professors. I may be Jewish (my mother was adopted), and was often mistaken for an Orthodox Jew back in Squirrel Hill. Youngstown's current health commissioner, a dear friend of mine whose office I was just at, is also Jewish. We actually spoke this time about _The Intelligence Report_, a quarterly newsletter about hate groups to watch out for. _He_ told me that he beleived it was anti-semitic to say that Hollywood is run by Jews - since I've been to USC when I was considering their producer's program, I told him it was true, but not a bad thing. It simply means that there are very artistic Jews in LA . What you just posted as evidence of being sympathetic to them would have been construed as being anti-semitic by Mr. Altman. Its not - its statistical. But these things are neither here nor there, because the beleifs that these Jews hold cannot be generalized to be held by _all _ Jews, and even if it is, it is well-meaning. And even if the reading of Revelations that there _is_ an Antichrist is true (and that is not a given- a reading that an "antichrist" will exist is also just an interpretation), the Jews who hold this beleif may also not embrace him. And even _if_ - and this is a big if - ALL of these things come true, it doesnt negate the fact that the Jews are the Chosen People, it doesnt make Jewish people inherently evil, it doesnt make the writings of the Torah flawed - it just makes that particular belief flawed. Saying that many people in Hollywood are Jewish isnt anymore anitsemitic than saying that many Jewish people think the Messiah will be wealthy, charismatic, and unite the world under him. Both statements are true. Its whether you use these statements to defame the race or make generalizations about a human being's worth that makes them prejudicial.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Dreamer

> Saying that many people in Hollywood are Jewish isnt anymore anitsemitic than saying that many Jewish people think the Messiah will be wealthy, charismatic, and unite the world under him. Both statements are true. Its whether you use these statements to defame the race or make generalizations about a human being's worth that makes them prejudicial.


Homeskooled,
I don't want to get into a battle over this. I was just saying we can't make sweeping generalizations.

But case in point re: Hollywood. *The Jewish members of the crew made fun of the fact that there were so many Jewish people in Hollywood.*

We had script covers that occasionally came out as jokes on the show... and our show wasn't the only one that did that.

I actually have one.

*THIS WAS CREATED BY THE PRODUCERS AND WRITERS OF THE SHOW, and I assure you many Jewish people are part of the entertainment industry, they have yes, been accused of "controlling it." They are also called communists. My father -in-law WAS a communist, and I mean a real Communist. It is a profession that is like being a doctor, or teacher, and stems from history wherein Jews were not allowed to do much but "change money" or work with "the filth" such as the diamond trade. Think of ******* the Jew from Shakespeare sp! the dirty money-grubbing dude who wanted to extract "a pound of flesh".

As a result many Jews went into independent professions, such as the arts, medicine, business, law, journalism, writing etc. Professions where they didn't have to worry about not being fired. My father in law as did many many members of the family changed their last names from Jewish names back in the 20s/30s... he couldn't get a job in the military, and he couldn't get a job as an engineer without doing this.

The famous William Golden (a relative of my husband's family) who created the Eye Logo for CBS changed his name and also worked as a creative person in the entertainment industry.

I guess I come from true family stories which are painful.*

At any rate, here is what was a script cover we ALL found hilarious...

The show was "The Fall Guy", Lou Shaw, main producer (Jewish)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I quote:

Script cover says "Final -- God Willing" (we had so many rewrites)

"The Foul *****" (For "The Fall Guy")

Episode Title:
"The Huntress, The Yenta & The Yeshiva Gang of 4" by Lazer Shaw (that would be Lou Shaw who wrote most of this HIMSELF and he's Jewish)

Starring:

Label Major Stein (Lee Majors)
Dougie Barrfein (Doug Barr)
Heatherla Thomashinsky (Heather Thomas)
Mazel Postberg (Markie Post

A Gefilte Larson (Glen Larson -- famous producer/writer in the 1970s/1980s) Production in Association with 20th Century Fox, OY VAY T.V.

Dated Purim, 5784

-------------------------------------------------------
This was written by the Jewish producer and writers of the show. Everyone found it hilarious. Most of the writers and producers on the show were Jewish. It's just a fact. Some of the editors. All positions of a HUGE crew.

I saved this as I found it a collector's item.

*It wasn't my idea, they composed this themselves!!!!!*

Home, I don't want to fight. And I am contemplating what you have written and you do make good points. But in the context of this "Second Coming" AntiChrist business, I just find it so archaic. And this code stuff in the Bible so suspect and odd. And as it is expressed in Jewish sects, so is it expressed in Christian denominations.

It just sounded blantantly antisemitic to me. A generalization, based on one group of people -- one sect.

I'm speaking from my own experience.

Now I'm sounding like Martin, but why oh why does religion have to be such a battle between everyone. I don't understand.

I'm sorry I'm so angry. It just struck a nerve.

Best,
D


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## Dreamer

One last comment, time for a nap, got a LOT of writing done today -- a miracle..... puking is over, LOL

http://www.thejewishmuseum.org/site/pages/press.php?id=26

There is tremenous pride in the Jewish contribution to the entertainment industry as illustrated in this article. Yes, there has been a backlash because of it ... accusations, misinterpretaion of the "hold" on the industry. That doesn't examine the reasons Jews became an integral part of the entertainment industry.

Too much information from a good article:

*Entertaining America: Jews, Movies, and Broadcasting on view at The Jewish Museum February 21 - September 14, 2003*

NEW YORK, NY ? Inviting visitors into an arcade-like setting of multimedia installations enhanced by posters, vintage photographs, and memorabilia, The Jewish Museum will present the innovative new exhibition Entertaining America: Jews, Movies, and Broadcasting from Friday, February 21 through Sunday, September 14, 2003. *Covering a hundred years of American experience, from the silent-movie era to Seinfeld, the exhibition explores the varied avenues of Jewish participation in the entertainment media?as audience members, entrepreneurs, creators, and icons?while revealing a multitude of changing attitudes toward Jewish culture and popular culture alike.*

The exhibition is sponsored by HSBC Bank USA, with support from other generous funders.

Within a sequence of specially built environments, which evoke settings such as early 20th century nickelodeons and a 1950s living room, visitors will encounter 18 remarkable video and audio presentations. *Composed of excerpts from more than 80 films, radio programs, and television shows, these presentations will encourage museum goers to reflect upon?and participate in?a public discussion that has now been ongoing for a century, about American Jews and how they have made, responded to, and been perceived in the entertainment media.*

Artifacts such as movie posters, fan magazines, and vintage radios bring life to the themed environments that frame each multimedia presentation. Along the way, "star shrines," some of them created by contemporary artists, examine how fans have responded to the Jewishness (real or imagined) of celebrities.

*"Our exhibition examines a wide range of the public's attitudes toward American Jews and our nation's media culture, as those attitudes have evolved over the past century. It does so in a way that we hope visitors will find to be involving, exciting, and entertaining in itself" said Joan Rosenbaum, Helen Goldsmith Menschel Director of The Jewish Museum.*

What?s on View in Entertaining America

Rather than presenting a continuous, comprehensive account of its subject, Entertaining America instead examines ten different focal points, which have been chosen for their richness and evocative power.

The exhibition's selective, chronological environments invite visitors to experience:

the first encounter of immigrants with moviegoing, in the storefront nickelodeons of the early 20th century;

*the many versions of The Jazz Singer (including the landmark 1927 "talkie") as a recurring American Jewish myth, focused on show business as both a challenge to tradition and a route to self-realization;*

Yiddish film and radio of the 1930s and 40s as American Jewish "alternative media" (as compared to mainstream film and broadcasting);

*the rise of Hollywood, and the figure of the "mogul" as an occasion of pride for some and anti-Semitic propaganda for others;*

the religious broadcast series The Eternal Light (produced by The Jewish Theological Seminary and NBC beginning in the 1940s) as an effort to link Judaism with ideals of Americanism;

the popular series The Goldbergs as a remarkable artifact of radio and the early days of television, and the brainchild of an important woman in American broadcasting, Gertrude Berg;

*the blacklisting of individuals in the entertainment industry during the early years of the Cold War as a moment of crisis, when discussions of American Jews and entertainment were linked with public debates about Communism and un-Americanism;*

Your Show of Shows as a pioneering television variety comedy series of the 1950s, whose writing staff (which included Woody Allen, Mel Brooks, Carl Reiner, and Neil Simon) came to be celebrated a generation later as a fount of American Jewish comedic talent;

the role of the entertainment media in helping shape the American public\'s understanding of the Holocaust;

and Seinfeld as the leading contemporary example of how television currently serves as a vehicle for Jewish self-portraiture.

As visitors pass through these settings, they also encounter a series of "star shrines" - including installations created by artists Ben Katchor, Aline Kominsky-Crumb, Rhonda Lieberman, and filmmaker Mark Rappaport - which evoke a sense of the public\'s fascination with the Jewishness of icons such as Fanny Brice, Betty Boop, the Marx Brothers, John Garfield, Marilyn Monroe, and Barbra Streisand.

The video and audio pieces that are at the heart of each installation have been created out of *excerpts from 46 films, 31 television programs, and 9 radio shows. (Many of the television and radio excerpts are drawn from The Jewish Museum's own National Jewish Archive of Broadcasting.)* Also on view are vintage photographs, photo reproductions, posters and flyers, books and magazines, a selection of sheet music and playbills, and artifacts such as Gertrude Berg's Emmy awards, Marilyn Monroe\'s mezzuzah, and promotional materials from El Al Israel Airlines' Exodus tour (inspired by the 1960 film starring Paul Newman). Selected links to 6 Web sites are also included.

Museum Co-Publishes Catalogue with Princeton University Press

In conjunction with the exhibition, The Jewish Museum and Princeton University Press are co-publishing a lavishly illustrated, 336-page book titled Entertaining America: Jews, Movies, and Broadcasting. Edited by the exhibition's guest curators J. Hoberman and Jeffrey Shandler, who have themselves made major contributions to the text, the book also includes essays by eleven other scholars noted in the fields of media, culture, and history.

*Bringing together original analyses and primary texts, the book examines both the dynamic relationship between Jews and the entertainment industry and the steady stream of richly varied voices that have commented on this relationship - in fan magazines and literary fiction, by religious and political leaders, as well as by journalists, historians, and Jews in the entertainment business themselves.* Featuring duotone reproductions of photographs, graphics, memorabilia, and other documentary materials, the book will sell for $35 (softcover) and $49.95 (hardcover) at The Jewish Museum's Cooper Shop and at bookstores everywhere.

The Team Behind Entertaining America

The guest curators for Entertaining America: Jews, Movies, and Broadcasting are J. Hoberman, Senior Film Critic for The Village Voice and author of Bridge of Light: Yiddish Film Between Two Worlds, and Jeffrey Shandler, Assistant Professor of Jewish Studies at Rutgers University and author of While America Watches: Televising the Holocaust. The project director is Fred Wasserman, Associate Curator at The Jewish Museum.

.....etc., etc.,etc.

*General Information*

For general information on The Jewish Museum, the public may visit the Museum?s Web site at http://www.thejewishmuseum.org or call 212.423.3200. The Jewish Museum is located at 1109 Fifth Avenue at 92nd Street, Manhattan. Museum hours are Sunday through Wednesday, 11am to 5:45pm; Thursday, 11am to 8pm; and Friday, 11am to 3pm. Museum admission is $10.00 for adults, $7.50 for students and senior citizens, free for children under 12 and Jewish Museum members. Admission is pay what you wish on Thursday evenings from 5pm to 8pm.


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## Dreamer

I'm like a terrier on this and I'm certain to destroy this thread at this point.

Clarification. Many different immigrants in this country and others are drawn to certain professions out of necessity. As I want to clarify again, the entertainment industry was a job where Jews were originally accepted. I forgot that it was an industry of ill repute. Jews were "allowed" to work in jobs of "ill repute" such as money handling as they were felt to be inferior.

The history of the entertainment industry is a reflection of why there ARE many Jews who gravitated to the profession out of necessity. And their presense there doesn't mean they "CONTROL" the industry.

And this concept of wealth and a "wealthy Messiah" ... well again, this would be associated with the Jew's association with "dirty money".

There is an excellent book ... no memory. The memory is long gone which can be gotten at amazon or wherever... this summarizes my POV. And I must say it is much like Buddhism. There is not much concern among Jews, even among the Orthodox Jews, of life after death.

The purpose of life is to make the best of life here, its good and its bad. This is like Buddhism -- Life is Pain, but we choose to Suffer. This is why I am attracted to both Judaism and Buddhism.

An elegant summary from an elegant book, and I guess my last gasp in all of this:

*
There Is No Messiah and You're It: The Stunning Transformation of 
Judaism's Most Provocative Idea*
*by Rabbi Robert N. Levine*
2002

*"This book does not really posit a theory that hasn't been 
discussed many times before.* The title of the book clearly 
states what Rabbi Levine's theory is: that *we cannot wait for a 
great leader to usher in a messianic age, rather, that all of us, 
in our own way, must bring about a better world.* Rabbi Levine 
does a nice job of surveying the idea of the Messiah in Judaism. He 
examines references in the books of the Prophets. He then gives a 
historical survey of messianism in Judaism, from the earliest 
followers of Jesus, to messianic figures such as Bar Kochba, 
Sabbatai Zvi and Jacob Frank.

*In times of turmoil, when the 
hopes of the Jewish community were at their lowest, many Jews found 
renewed hope in the belief that the Messiah has arrived.*

*These hopes often had tragic consequences.* Many of the Jews 
of Jerusalem, during the days of Roman occupation, followed the 
charismatic Bar Kochba into battle. With his fierce determination, 
there were early military victories but ultimately, the rebellion 
was crushed with devestating results. The tragic decimation of the 
Jewish community may have been the worst disaster suffered by the 
Jews until the onset of the even more horrific Holocaust of the 
20th Century. Sabbatai Zvi and Jacob Frank, more than a millenium 
and a half later, also had rabid follewers who, believing each was 
the messiah, gave up strict observance of Judaism based on the 
blasphemous examples set by these false messiahs.

*The point of the book is that we cannot sit and wait for a 
messiah. If there was an actual Messiah, we should not wait for his 
appearance passively but instead, seek to better the world as we 
await the messianic event. If there is no messianic leader, then it 
is for each of us to bring about positive change in the world."*

My argument here is in using a rogue sect to describe Jews as planning for the "Second Coming" is an exception to the beliefs of Jews in the main. And of course the AntiChrist I suppose is a Jew.

But have we all forgotten that Jesus was a Jew? He was a Rabbi. And Christians are one sect of Judaism that broke away during yet another time of turmoil.

I have to stop talking about religion. I wish it could be live and let live. I have to stop talking about the differences between men and women as that has turned into a huge argument in "That's Life" ... I HAVE given up on politics as I simply don't know enough about it.

I want to move to Montana and live with animals. Sigh.

In Peace, truly
D


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## Dreamer

OK, LOL, my last post.

Home, when I read those two passages sited, one must remember these are ancient texts written thousands of years ago. Various sects have sprung up and disappeared since then. Hassidic Jews for instance (who are sort of like the Amish, believing more in isolation) came into existence around the 1500s/1600s.....I don't remember.

If any Jewish sect today sites these ancient texts, yes, they are the FOUDATION, of the concept of Jewish thought, but Jews today do not take all of this as "what will actually come about." Again in looking at the book cited above, just as all religions have evolved, so has Judaism.

One evangelical sect, basing it's worldview on a notion that is extreme, does not represent the majority of Jews today.

I'm done. I wish I were more articulate. I am now turning off the computer, having a cup of tea and continuing on with my project at hand.

Forgive me for being a terrier.

Yes, the focus of the contemporary Jew, including the Orthodox Jew -- at least the one's I've known and the Temple shabbat's, mar mitzvahs, etc. I've attended do NOT focus on life after death, they focus on NOW. They are also not worried about constructing the old Temple either!

And I'm not saying all Jews are wonderful people. There are human beings, good and bad.

Ok, the Rabbi's book is more on point re: the history of the evolution of Judaism. It has evolved just as Christianity has over the centuries.

Peace,
NOW I'm done
No one believes me
D 8)


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## Homeskooled

Dear Dreamer, 
It may take me a long time to read the novel you've posted about the evolution of Judaism! :wink: Just kidding.....

I didnt know that Jews were forced into the diamond industry. Very interesting. I absolutely understand that not all Jews beleive in a Messiah, and that of them, his attributes vary. It isnt, however, only narrow sects which held this beleif in Squirrel Hill - signs over the doorposts heralding the Messiah's coming were everywhere. It really _isnt_ meant to be a comment about the Jewish people - I'm just positing a theory that has been around for a while that fits, as I said in my original post, two great religion's prophecies. I just thought it was eerie. I dont have any idea if it is likely, although I kind of doubt it. I think prophecies are meant to be misunderstood until after they come to pass.

I want to emphasize something I said before, however. Making a statement about a large group of people *is not necessarily wrong if it is true.* For instance, it would not be the least absurd for me to say that caucasians control most of the wealth in America and most of our political system. It isnt ant-caucasian rhetoric - its the truth. I'm caucasian. Why then cant we say that Hollywood is controlled by several powerbrokers of Jewish descent? Whats wrong with that if its true? I know that the knee jerk reaction is to say that it isnt true, its anti-semitic, because people may say that Jews are causing x,y,and z in Hollywood. But I think its more important to be honest than it is to be politically correct. Yes, Hollywood is a largely Jewish machine, and there is somewhat of a "gay mafia" there. A casting director friend of mine, Chris Cygan Mcgraw, used that sentence almost verbatim. *And there isnt anything wrong with those two groups holding most of the positions in that field, provided they hold them responsilbly. More power to them, after what they've been through. *I'm very sensitive to my friend Mr. Altman's problem with those statements, because ultimately he beleives it will lead to scapegoating, but that doesnt have to be the case, and shouldnt. Each individual is responsible for their actions alone. Okay, thats my own tangent now. Had to get that off my chest.

Thanks Dreamer for educating me on the reasons that Jews in America entered professions such as law, medicine, etc...I found that fascinating and enlightening. As I said before, I feel very badly for the Jewish people and wish the State of Israel the best of luck in finding a compromise with the Palestinians. I dont put much stock in ANY interpretation of the book of Revelations - just thought it was an interesting tidbit for the thread. I agree with you quite a bit in whatever you write, and I really think that we are on the same page regarding this. I just think that you took my connecting of fact 1 with prophecy 2 to mean that Jews as a whole will be responsible for the Antichrist, which would once again be scapegoating. I have no idea if in this hypothesis he is even of Jewish descent. Just wanted to connect an interpretation of their relgious beleifs, not the entire race or creed.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Dreamer

Dear Home,
I'm mighty relieved we are on the same page, I think we are. I have a knee jerk response to things, and subsequently write a phonebook of information.

I somewhat misunderstood you point about Jews in the entertainment industry ... I understand NOW what you were saying, and indeed it just is a fact, and I could have said earlier, IF I HAD A MEMORY :? -- that the industry always had a bad rep, but was an acceptable profession for Jews.

Like in Shakespeare's time, the theatre was considered low class and it would have been shameful for women to act hence boys played women's roles, etc. Also they had shows for the upper classes and ones for the wealthy. Bawdy vs. drama?

Also, I now wish to clarify but can't recall. The "jewelry business" is more precise, the "diamond industry" ... I'm not sure if it was originally considered "low class" like "money handling" or if it is actually a profession, like medicine, teaching, etc. that was more "portable", more a "Mom and Pop" buisness. It may be that. I just don't recall. And hence there are many Jewish jewelers.

And you know, I was going to bring in the "gay mafia", LOL, but didn't. That's Broadway epitomized by, is it Harvey Firestein? sp?



> There isnt anything wrong with those two groups holding most of the positions in that field, provided they hold them responsilbly. More power to them, after what they've been through.


Sounds like Seinfeld, "Not that there's anything wrong with that."

And I also don't wish to be Politically Correct here.

It's too cool that you hang with the showbiz crowd. It's all I ever wanted to do -- sing and act. I'm jealous.

I didn't mean to make this a crusade on behalf of Jews, but I guess I did.

Glad we're on the same page.
Peace,
D


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## falling_free

On the point made about the antichrist being the jewish messiah

the jewish star of david is the double sided triangle with 6 points










the upwards triangle representing the 'higher self', and the lower triangle representing the 'lower self'

I actually have a birthmark on my right arm, but no plans to take over the world ........ yet. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Goats bapomet .... the goat of mennnnndeeesssss










evil boy - hermes wand , wave it in the AIIIIRRRRRR

laughing at the sabbahs dawn hahahah

drinking the blood of all virgins sacrifieced at my allllteerrrrrrr

howling at the moon with laughter

hahahahahHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


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## Sojourner

All religious writings seem to indicate that the human "perception" of God's reality is not attained by the human intellect alone but by the human intellect and the human spirit together.

My intellect finds little sense in the idea that all this "just happened by itself" and a good deal more sense in the idea that there is indeed a "designer" or "creator" of it all.

A few other things:

It's "The Revelation of John," or "Revelation" (singular). It's apocryphal literature.

Eternal life is inconceivable to us because it is not life in a "body" as we know the physical body. Life in "Heaven" is said to be "union" with the creator (inconceivable to us), while life in "Hell" is eternal separation from the creator.

Those who truly believe in God do so because they have glimpsed while on earth that there is One who is "Totally Other" yet "closer to us than we are to ourselves."

God is on a "frequency" that we can tune into -- and all the great religions know the frequency. Catholics believe that all religions are subsumed in the Catholic Church, that all people may be saved, whether they profess Christ or not (or even belief in God, for that matter), and that Christ is not a man in the clouds, nor God an older man in the clouds, but both are spirit -- and they are One in the Holy Trinity.

Believers do not believe these things because they heard some words someone else wrote or said. They believe these things because they encountered in their lives the Living God.

We cannot find evidence of God's reality or unreality by normal everyday thinking. God is spirit and speaks to us through OUR spirits. When we sit quietly in a garden, or by a stream, or in the silence of our hearts, if we listen and wait, we can encounter the "Wholly Other" -- one whom we detect is not from our own imagination. And how, you ask, do we know he is not our own creation?

It's real simple (for me, anyway).

If we could bring to ourselves the peace and joy that God brings to our hearts, none of us would be on this forum. We cannot manufacture such a sense of being loved, of being secure, of being safe, or of being part of a whole that has ultimate meaning. If we could do that, is there one of us who would not have done it already? Some of us actually have experienced God speaking directly to our spirits to a greater or lesser degree, but the life of a believer is a life of struggle against the powers of this world that serve to try to destroy human beings' natural ability to hear God just as Adam and Eve heard him daily in the Garden.

"Oh, that's a fine story, Sojourner," I hear you all saying (well, not all, but many of you).

Yes, it is, isn't it?

But it's not a story only -- it's the actual experience of people who believe in God.

If you think that some poor misguided souls on this earth believe in God like a child believes in Santa Claus until he's five, then you are very much mistaken.

People believe because they MEET Someone who is real.

Oddly enough, the space in which one meets him is not altogether unlike the DP space. That should bring some comfort to people, because in a sense, you are perfectly positioned to sense His presence. You are already half to the point where you can tolerate the "other-worldly" aspects of your experience -- and meeting God is definitely more strange than DP could ever be. But its strangeness is overwhelmed and overpowered by its sheer beauty and pleasure and peace.

And should that happen to you, it is far from the end -- it is just the beginning, and your struggles in life will continue as they have, but you will have something you didn't have before that can sustain you and bring you joy in the midst of suffering.


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## Homeskooled

Dear Sojourner, 
I agree with the rest of your post, but I dont beleive that Revelation is apocryphal. Apocryphal books are the ones rejected by the first councils of the church as inaccurate or not inspired by the Holy Spirit. At least, this is my understanding of it, as I dont consider myself an authority on Scripture. How you been feeling? Miss your frequent posts.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Sojourner

LOL, Homeskooled, I mixed up "apocalyptic" with "apocryphal" -- something I do when I'm tired.

I meant to post this text last night from http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/intro.htm:

Revelation

Introduction

The Apocalypse, or Revelation to John, the last book of the Bible, is one of the most difficult to understand because it abounds in unfamiliar and extravagant symbolism, which at best appears unusual to the modern reader. Symbolic language, however, is one of the chief characteristics of apocalyptic literature, of which this book is an outstanding example. Such literature enjoyed wide popularity in both Jewish and Christian circles from ca. 200 B.C. to A.D. 200.

This book contains an account of visions in symbolic and allegorical language borrowed extensively from the Old Testament, especially Ezekiel, Zechariah, and Daniel. Whether or not these visions were real experiences of the author or simply literary conventions employed by him is an open question.

This much, however, is certain: symbolic descriptions are not to be taken as literal descriptions, nor is the symbolism meant to be pictured realistically. One would find it difficult and repulsive to visualize a lamb with seven horns and seven eyes; yet Jesus Christ is described in precisely such words (Rev 5:6). The author used these images to suggest Christ's universal (seven) power (horns) and knowledge (eyes). A significant feature of apocalyptic writing is the use of symbolic colors, metals, garments (Rev 1:13-16; 3:18; 4:4; 6:1-8; 17:4; 19:8), and numbers (four signifies the world, six imperfection, seven totality or perfection, twelve Israel's tribes or the apostles, one thousand immensity). Finally the vindictive language in the book (Rev 6:9-10; 18:1-19:4) is also to be understood symbolically and not literally. The cries for vengeance on the lips of Christian martyrs that sound so harsh are in fact literary devices the author employed to evoke in the reader and hearer a feeling of horror for apostasy and rebellion that will be severely punished by God.

The lurid descriptions of the punishment of Jezebel (Rev 2:22) and of the destruction of the great harlot, Babylon (Rev 16:9-19:2),are likewise literary devices. The metaphor of Babylon as harlot would be wrongly construed if interpreted literally. On the other hand, the stylized figure of the woman clothed with the sun (Rev 12:1-6), depicting the New Israel, may seem to be a negative stereotype. It is necessary to look beyond the literal meaning to see that these images mean to convey a sense of God's wrath at sin in the former case and trust in God's providential care over the church in the latter.

The Book of Revelation cannot be adequately understood except against the historical background that occasioned its writing. Like Daniel and other apocalypses, it was composed as resistance literature to meet a crisis. The book itself suggests that the crisis was ruthless persecution of the early church by the Roman authorities; the harlot Babylon symbolizes pagan Rome, the city on seven hills (17, 9). The book is, then, an exhortation and admonition to Christians of the first century to stand firm in the faith and to avoid compromise with paganism, despite the threat of adversity and martyrdom; they are to await patiently the fulfillment of God's mighty promises. The triumph of God in the world of men and women remains a mystery, to be accepted in faith and longed for in hope. It is a triumph that unfolded in the history of Jesus of Nazareth and continues to unfold in the history of the individual Christian who follows the way of the cross, even, if necessary, to a martyr's death.

Though the perspective is eschatological--ultimate salvation and victory are said to take place at the end of the present age when Christ will come in glory at the parousia--the book presents the decisive struggle of Christ and his followers against Satan and his cohorts as already over. Christ's overwhelming defeat of the kingdom of Satan ushered in the everlasting reign of God (Rev 11:15; 12:10). Even the forces of evil unwittingly carry out the divine plan (Rev 17:17), for God is the sovereign Lord of history.

The Book of Revelation had its origin in a time of crisis, but it remains valid and meaningful for Christians of all time. In the face of apparently insuperable evil, either from within or from without, all Christians are called to trust in Jesus' promise, "Behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20). Those who remain steadfast in their faith and confidence in the risen Lord need have no fear. Suffering, persecution, even death by martyrdom, though remaining impenetrable mysteries of evil, do not comprise an absurd dead end. No matter what adversity or sacrifice Christians may endure, they will in the end triumph over Satan and his forces because of their fidelity to Christ the victor. This is the enduring message of the book; it is a message of hope and consolation and challenge for all who dare to believe.

The author of the book calls himself John (Rev 1:1, 4, 9; 22:8), who because of his Christian faith has been exiled to the rocky island of Patmos, a Roman penal colony. Although he never claims to be John the apostle, whose name is attached to the fourth gospel, he was so identified by several of the early church Fathers, including Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, and Hippolytus. This identification, however, was denied by other Fathers, including Denis of Alexandria, Eusebius of Caesarea, Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Nazianzen, and John Chrysostom. Indeed, vocabulary, grammar, and style make it doubtful that the book could have been put into its present form by the same person(s) responsible for the fourth gospel. Nevertheless, there are definite linguistic and theological affinities between the two books. The tone of the letters to the seven churches (Rev 1:4-3:22) is indicative of the great authority the author enjoyed over the Christian communities in Asia. It is possible, therefore, that he was a disciple of John the apostle, who is traditionally associated with that part of the world. The date of the book in its present form is probably near the end of the reign of Domitian (A.D. 81-96), a fierce persecutor of the Christians.

The principal divisions of the Book of Revelation are the following:

Prologue (Rev 1:1-3) Letters to the Churches of Asia (Rev 1:4-3:22) 
God and the Lamb in Heaven (Rev 4:1-5:14) 
The Seven Seals, Trumpets, and Plagues, with Interludes (Rev 6:1-16:21) 
The Punishment of Babylon and the Destruction of Pagan Nations (Rev 17:1-20:15) 
The New Creation (Rev 21:1-22:5) 
Epilogue (Rev 22:6-21)

Table of Contents Jude Next Chapter

New American Bible Copyright ? 1991, 1986, 1970 Confraternity of Christian Doctrine, Inc., Washington, DC. All rights reserved. Neither this work nor any part of it may be reproduced, distributed, performed or displayed in any medium, including electronic or digital, without permission in writing from the copyright owner.


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## Sojourner

Aw, heck, folks -- the NCCB doesn't put smilies in its text!! But it does put semicolons. Tee hee.


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## falling_free

Did you seee god baby?


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