# Homosexuality



## grant_r (Aug 25, 2004)

Yes, it's everyone's favorite topic, subject to change. We all have to deal with it though. Some of us (cough) will admit to being gay, while others in society are too afraid to deal with their feelings lest they be abandoned.

Anyway, how do you all feel about it, and what's it mean to you? I'm just reviving a thread from the old forum, and to start that off, here's my favorite quote that I took a picture of before it was the Forum's time.









Exponentially,
Grant with an "R"


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## grant_r (Aug 25, 2004)

Yes, it's everyone's favorite topic, subject to change. We all have to deal with it though. Some of us (cough) will admit to being gay, while others in society are too afraid to deal with their feelings lest they be abandoned.

Anyway, how do you all feel about it, and what's it mean to you? I'm just reviving a thread from the old forum, and to start that off, here's my favorite quote that I took a picture of before it was the Forum's time.









Exponentially,
Grant with an "R"


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Hate we can't see the picture, Grant.

My thinking...

may I be in this world and leave this world not questioning a person's lifestyle, but knowing what is and was in their heart.

Good luck on this thread.

Cheers Mugs!
terri


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Hate we can't see the picture, Grant.

My thinking...

may I be in this world and leave this world not questioning a person's lifestyle, but knowing what is and was in their heart.

Good luck on this thread.

Cheers Mugs!
terri


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## JasonFar (Aug 13, 2004)

> may I be in this world and leave this world not questioning a person's lifestyle, but knowing what is and was in their heart.


But how much of the thoughts, actions, emotions, energy, etc, are really guided by Humanity's heart as a whole? For each individual? If we're all one big heart, it's most certainly a broken one. This post-modern world seems to be one more of Mind than of Heart, not that that's a good thing.

Hmmmm I'm blaberring. But I think there's a point there. :twisted: :?: :roll: 8)


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## JasonFar (Aug 13, 2004)

> may I be in this world and leave this world not questioning a person's lifestyle, but knowing what is and was in their heart.


But how much of the thoughts, actions, emotions, energy, etc, are really guided by Humanity's heart as a whole? For each individual? If we're all one big heart, it's most certainly a broken one. This post-modern world seems to be one more of Mind than of Heart, not that that's a good thing.

Hmmmm I'm blaberring. But I think there's a point there. :twisted: :?: :roll: 8)


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Yes, Jason, there is a point there. No, not that it is a good thing, but it is a reality. My thoughts, actions, energy, etc. may not guide "the" world, but they guide mine. For that I am thankful.

Just thoughts of an old hippy still wishing for the "love" movement to take hold. :wink:

Yeah, whenever possible I put on the rose colored glasses. 'Cause when I look at the real world I am consumed by an overwhelming sadness. Again, that's just me.


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Yes, Jason, there is a point there. No, not that it is a good thing, but it is a reality. My thoughts, actions, energy, etc. may not guide "the" world, but they guide mine. For that I am thankful.

Just thoughts of an old hippy still wishing for the "love" movement to take hold. :wink:

Yeah, whenever possible I put on the rose colored glasses. 'Cause when I look at the real world I am consumed by an overwhelming sadness. Again, that's just me.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2004)

I could not care less what anyone else's sexual orientation is. We are all humans in this world and we need tolerance and acceptance of people's sexual freedom.

My favorite response to the gay marriage debate was a male comedian who said "how do I feel about the gay marriage issue? Hell, who do they think they ARE? Of COURSE they should get married - and be as miserable as the rest of us!"

Peace,
J


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2004)

I could not care less what anyone else's sexual orientation is. We are all humans in this world and we need tolerance and acceptance of people's sexual freedom.

My favorite response to the gay marriage debate was a male comedian who said "how do I feel about the gay marriage issue? Hell, who do they think they ARE? Of COURSE they should get married - and be as miserable as the rest of us!"

Peace,
J


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2004)

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## Guest (Sep 27, 2004)

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## Guest (Sep 27, 2004)

That's an extraordinary post, Wendy. If we could all just DO that, be open about our own stories, whether they are about our sexuality, or our opinions, or our illnesses....we offer the rest of the world a chance to see that THEY are not alone.

"the only gay person in Amersterdam" lol..that says it all. ANd that is the tragedy, for any of us, making our way in this world. When there is shame and fear (and families who abuse us by rejecting WHO we are), then we hide and then no one else can see that their own stories are so similiar.

None of us...regardless of our sexuality, is the "only anything" and we need to know that. And we need to be interested in each other, not condemning of anything that doesn't fit with our own experience.

VERY cool post, W. Very cool

Peace,
J


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2004)

That's an extraordinary post, Wendy. If we could all just DO that, be open about our own stories, whether they are about our sexuality, or our opinions, or our illnesses....we offer the rest of the world a chance to see that THEY are not alone.

"the only gay person in Amersterdam" lol..that says it all. ANd that is the tragedy, for any of us, making our way in this world. When there is shame and fear (and families who abuse us by rejecting WHO we are), then we hide and then no one else can see that their own stories are so similiar.

None of us...regardless of our sexuality, is the "only anything" and we need to know that. And we need to be interested in each other, not condemning of anything that doesn't fit with our own experience.

VERY cool post, W. Very cool

Peace,
J


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2004)

i remember someone made a similar topic & i said something that wasn't even really offensive and things got blown way out of proportion.

I have no problems with gay people, however i won't lie, if i was around gay males i probably won't feel comfortable, not because i would be afraid that they might try to " hit on me" i just KNOW i would be uncomfortable cuz i have been around gay people before. If people are gay, than they are gay, and thats the way it is. Its just something people have to accept. As long as they aren't hurting anyone by it, than its ok in my book.

I personally can't understand how a male can be fully gay, because i mean women are just so beautiful & in my opinion " God's" gift to us males. I can however understand how a female may be a lesbian, because girls are like i said beautiful and well alot of us guys are dogs.

Hey you asked

but yeah if your gay, your gay

Peace


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2004)

i remember someone made a similar topic & i said something that wasn't even really offensive and things got blown way out of proportion.

I have no problems with gay people, however i won't lie, if i was around gay males i probably won't feel comfortable, not because i would be afraid that they might try to " hit on me" i just KNOW i would be uncomfortable cuz i have been around gay people before. If people are gay, than they are gay, and thats the way it is. Its just something people have to accept. As long as they aren't hurting anyone by it, than its ok in my book.

I personally can't understand how a male can be fully gay, because i mean women are just so beautiful & in my opinion " God's" gift to us males. I can however understand how a female may be a lesbian, because girls are like i said beautiful and well alot of us guys are dogs.

Hey you asked

but yeah if your gay, your gay

Peace


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2004)

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## Guest (Sep 27, 2004)

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## JasonFar (Aug 13, 2004)

Yes congrats Wendy that really was an extroardinary post,

Your dad, sad to say, seems like a villian in an evil movie... I still don't seem to understand how someone could have such an extreme reaction to their child's sexuality. Unless, I guess, he's a very very conservative, reputable Christian or something.

But you've survived a lot through him. For that you should be proud.

~Jason


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## JasonFar (Aug 13, 2004)

Yes congrats Wendy that really was an extroardinary post,

Your dad, sad to say, seems like a villian in an evil movie... I still don't seem to understand how someone could have such an extreme reaction to their child's sexuality. Unless, I guess, he's a very very conservative, reputable Christian or something.

But you've survived a lot through him. For that you should be proud.

~Jason


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2004)

Where will you go, what is the other country youre talking of?


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2004)

Where will you go, what is the other country youre talking of?


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Dear SoulBro,

Not getting angry with you over this comment, it is your take on the subject:



> I personally can't understand how a male can be fully gay, because i mean women are just so beautiful & in my opinion " God's" gift to us males. I can however understand how a female may be a lesbian, because girls are like i said beautiful and well alot of us guys are dogs.


... but again, as with everyone here who has said who aren't bothered if someone is gay, I see sexual orientation as a given in most cases. In other words, homosexuality is not a choice, it is who someone is when they are born. And Wendy, Grant, correct me if I'm wrong, or if this doesn't apply in your lives.

I've had more interaction with gay males than gay females (not sure why), but when ever I've asked a gay male how he think he became gay he will say, "I can't remember NOT feeling this way." I.E. those I've discussed this with have ALWAYS been gay, since childhood. And their attraction is towards the opposite sex.

I've also known one child whose orientaion at age 4 was gay. His parents were very aware of it and didn't force him to be someone other than who he was.

And my opinion on this is I have absolutely no problem with homosexuality as I see it is part of who someone is. It would be like saying I have a problem with their eyecolor.

As you get older, you meet a heckuva lot of people, and some of them are gay. Bro, you may know people now, who already ARE your friends who are gay, but haven't come out because they are afraid of the stigma.

*Also, if you work in the entertainment industry, which you have said you want to do, you're going to find a lot of gay people. I've worked in TV production, theatre, and music and a lot of the people I worked with were gay.

Bro, I'm curious, what would you do if you found out a very close friend of yours is gay? Say you have already been friends for years ... and then you find out he's gay. Would that change your friendship?*

My oldest friend, my best friend during childhood who is exactly my age, so we've known each other essentially 45 years, is gay. I didn't know this when we were children, when in high school, in college, when we were young adults, but she slowly started coming out of the closet. My friendship for her has never changed. She is still the person I've known my whole life. I still care about her very much.

*Also, the man who first started the original DP Board is gay. Andy C. This DP Board may never have started if it weren't for him. I applaud James for keeping this going, but the original depersonalization board this sprang from was created by Andy.*

When I was younger I didn't understand homosexuality as much as I do now, perhaps it is with age that we aren't as judgemental. It may be why you've gotten a hard time with this topic.

In Peace,
D :shock:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Dear SoulBro,

Not getting angry with you over this comment, it is your take on the subject:



> I personally can't understand how a male can be fully gay, because i mean women are just so beautiful & in my opinion " God's" gift to us males. I can however understand how a female may be a lesbian, because girls are like i said beautiful and well alot of us guys are dogs.


... but again, as with everyone here who has said who aren't bothered if someone is gay, I see sexual orientation as a given in most cases. In other words, homosexuality is not a choice, it is who someone is when they are born. And Wendy, Grant, correct me if I'm wrong, or if this doesn't apply in your lives.

I've had more interaction with gay males than gay females (not sure why), but when ever I've asked a gay male how he think he became gay he will say, "I can't remember NOT feeling this way." I.E. those I've discussed this with have ALWAYS been gay, since childhood. And their attraction is towards the opposite sex.

I've also known one child whose orientaion at age 4 was gay. His parents were very aware of it and didn't force him to be someone other than who he was.

And my opinion on this is I have absolutely no problem with homosexuality as I see it is part of who someone is. It would be like saying I have a problem with their eyecolor.

As you get older, you meet a heckuva lot of people, and some of them are gay. Bro, you may know people now, who already ARE your friends who are gay, but haven't come out because they are afraid of the stigma.

*Also, if you work in the entertainment industry, which you have said you want to do, you're going to find a lot of gay people. I've worked in TV production, theatre, and music and a lot of the people I worked with were gay.

Bro, I'm curious, what would you do if you found out a very close friend of yours is gay? Say you have already been friends for years ... and then you find out he's gay. Would that change your friendship?*

My oldest friend, my best friend during childhood who is exactly my age, so we've known each other essentially 45 years, is gay. I didn't know this when we were children, when in high school, in college, when we were young adults, but she slowly started coming out of the closet. My friendship for her has never changed. She is still the person I've known my whole life. I still care about her very much.

*Also, the man who first started the original DP Board is gay. Andy C. This DP Board may never have started if it weren't for him. I applaud James for keeping this going, but the original depersonalization board this sprang from was created by Andy.*

When I was younger I didn't understand homosexuality as much as I do now, perhaps it is with age that we aren't as judgemental. It may be why you've gotten a hard time with this topic.

In Peace,
D :shock:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

And P.S. Wendy. Yup loved your post. As Jason said, you should be proud.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

And P.S. Wendy. Yup loved your post. As Jason said, you should be proud.


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## shadowness (Sep 12, 2004)

be who you want to be...

love who you want to love...

you do not have to like or agree with other peoples sexuality....

but be respectful of other peoples way of living...

after all you are the one who has to live your life...no one else...



my heart goes out to you Wendy...thank you for sharing your story 

i am bisexual and have only told a few people (and now i am mentioning it online :lol: :roll: )

my family do not know......yet.... :? 

but i have not had any 'serious' girlfriends...just one long term boyfriend...

always an interesting subject though...


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## shadowness (Sep 12, 2004)

be who you want to be...

love who you want to love...

you do not have to like or agree with other peoples sexuality....

but be respectful of other peoples way of living...

after all you are the one who has to live your life...no one else...



my heart goes out to you Wendy...thank you for sharing your story 

i am bisexual and have only told a few people (and now i am mentioning it online :lol: :roll: )

my family do not know......yet.... :? 

but i have not had any 'serious' girlfriends...just one long term boyfriend...

always an interesting subject though...


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2004)

Dreamer said:


> Dear SoulBro,
> 
> Not getting angry with you over this comment, it is your take on the subject:
> 
> ...


Dreamer, i heard somewhere that some females become lesbians because they are sick of males. Im not saying that this is a fact, its just something that i heard.

If i found out one of my close friends was gay, i dunno how i would react, i really can't answer that right now. Currently to my knowledge all of my close friends are straight, so again its hard for me to answer that question.

And i agree in most cases homosexuality isn't a choice, its just the way some people are............


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2004)

Dreamer said:


> Dear SoulBro,
> 
> Not getting angry with you over this comment, it is your take on the subject:
> 
> ...


Dreamer, i heard somewhere that some females become lesbians because they are sick of males. Im not saying that this is a fact, its just something that i heard.

If i found out one of my close friends was gay, i dunno how i would react, i really can't answer that right now. Currently to my knowledge all of my close friends are straight, so again its hard for me to answer that question.

And i agree in most cases homosexuality isn't a choice, its just the way some people are............


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## GavinD (Aug 10, 2004)

I'm not homophobic. I'm not scared of my house!



Seriously though, I've always been so anti-homophobic before that I'm sure some people thought I was gay myself. I just think love is the most sacred thing in the universe and for anyone to be condemned for loving another human being is totally unjust. It's the most perverted condemnation I can imagine. 
I live in Brighton which is a gay mecca. If you walk around Kemp Town where all the gay bars are you'll hear all different accents, because people come from all over the world to live here amongst people of a similiar orientation...I guess it's like to the UK what San Francisco is to the US. But even in city as cosmopolitan and diverse as this there is still discrimination from some members of the public. Some of it is understandable and is not so much because of the gays themselves as from the molly coddling politically correct brigade in the town hall who hold events like 'gay and lesbian job fairs' which is TOTALLY discriminatory! But then there's also just the sheer ignorant lot who simply cannot accept people's sexuality is their own and think that anyone who is not 'the norm' deserves sly glances or abuse.
A little while back I was in a park that was full of families, but also big lads playing football and drinking cans of beer. There was a male gay couple walking past arm in arm, which you'd normally only see in their ghettoised area. I was touched by it because it just showed that their love was stronger than their shame or their fear. They didn't get any glances or abuse, but they had every reason to be afraid of that posibility but still it didn't bother them. That's the kind of thing I admire.

g


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## GavinD (Aug 10, 2004)

I'm not homophobic. I'm not scared of my house!



Seriously though, I've always been so anti-homophobic before that I'm sure some people thought I was gay myself. I just think love is the most sacred thing in the universe and for anyone to be condemned for loving another human being is totally unjust. It's the most perverted condemnation I can imagine. 
I live in Brighton which is a gay mecca. If you walk around Kemp Town where all the gay bars are you'll hear all different accents, because people come from all over the world to live here amongst people of a similiar orientation...I guess it's like to the UK what San Francisco is to the US. But even in city as cosmopolitan and diverse as this there is still discrimination from some members of the public. Some of it is understandable and is not so much because of the gays themselves as from the molly coddling politically correct brigade in the town hall who hold events like 'gay and lesbian job fairs' which is TOTALLY discriminatory! But then there's also just the sheer ignorant lot who simply cannot accept people's sexuality is their own and think that anyone who is not 'the norm' deserves sly glances or abuse.
A little while back I was in a park that was full of families, but also big lads playing football and drinking cans of beer. There was a male gay couple walking past arm in arm, which you'd normally only see in their ghettoised area. I was touched by it because it just showed that their love was stronger than their shame or their fear. They didn't get any glances or abuse, but they had every reason to be afraid of that posibility but still it didn't bother them. That's the kind of thing I admire.

g


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2004)

Wendy how sad for you.
I really can't imagine being treated with such disrespect.
I've often thought about how terrible it must be for many gay people,the judgements and non acceptance and as you say often times coming from their own family.
I think there used to be and still are a lot of men who think like your father.
As a parent I find this hard to grasp.

Sometimes I think if my son were gay,he'd help his mother more lol

I'm glad you got out of that village,you'd be desperate and dateless forever.

The times they are a changing.It seems there is more tolerance these days.
This new Islamic problem sounds odd.Why do you think a minority group would have such an influence?

Love Shell


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2004)

Wendy how sad for you.
I really can't imagine being treated with such disrespect.
I've often thought about how terrible it must be for many gay people,the judgements and non acceptance and as you say often times coming from their own family.
I think there used to be and still are a lot of men who think like your father.
As a parent I find this hard to grasp.

Sometimes I think if my son were gay,he'd help his mother more lol

I'm glad you got out of that village,you'd be desperate and dateless forever.

The times they are a changing.It seems there is more tolerance these days.
This new Islamic problem sounds odd.Why do you think a minority group would have such an influence?

Love Shell


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## dalailama15 (Aug 13, 2004)

I have one prejudice against gay people. Without even knowing them I tend to assume they are nice people, kind people. I know I shouldn't pre-judge, but this has been my experience.


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## dalailama15 (Aug 13, 2004)

I have one prejudice against gay people. Without even knowing them I tend to assume they are nice people, kind people. I know I shouldn't pre-judge, but this has been my experience.


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## grant_r (Aug 25, 2004)

Dreamer said:


> ... but again, as with everyone here who has said who aren't bothered if someone is gay, I see sexual orientation as a given in most cases. In other words, homosexuality is not a choice, it is who someone is when they are born. And Wendy, Grant, correct me if I'm wrong, or if this doesn't apply in your lives.


Yep, definitely. I've never felt any other way, and never doubted the conclusion that I was gay. It's just who I am.

Soulbro, think about how you think about women, and how you think that- in your mind- there would never be any way with you and men. Inconceivable, and it feels wrong, very wrong. Now take that view, switch it around, and that's how I feel. There's no black and white about it.

Since I'm not really out at all yet, I face no real discrimination against myself personally. But I still feel it as a personally attacking word. Just two nights ago, I was over a friend's house with a few kids and her dad went off about "This is gay" and "That's gay" and so on. People use this word so loosely, to express that something is wrong, bad, or evil. Why?

I'm not innocent as far as that's concerned, either; it's been ingrained into my head by society to use this word in the same way, so that I say it to mean things that I don't like.

A world without prejudice? Nice thought, but no way.

Exponentially,
Grant with an "R"


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## grant_r (Aug 25, 2004)

Dreamer said:


> ... but again, as with everyone here who has said who aren't bothered if someone is gay, I see sexual orientation as a given in most cases. In other words, homosexuality is not a choice, it is who someone is when they are born. And Wendy, Grant, correct me if I'm wrong, or if this doesn't apply in your lives.


Yep, definitely. I've never felt any other way, and never doubted the conclusion that I was gay. It's just who I am.

Soulbro, think about how you think about women, and how you think that- in your mind- there would never be any way with you and men. Inconceivable, and it feels wrong, very wrong. Now take that view, switch it around, and that's how I feel. There's no black and white about it.

Since I'm not really out at all yet, I face no real discrimination against myself personally. But I still feel it as a personally attacking word. Just two nights ago, I was over a friend's house with a few kids and her dad went off about "This is gay" and "That's gay" and so on. People use this word so loosely, to express that something is wrong, bad, or evil. Why?

I'm not innocent as far as that's concerned, either; it's been ingrained into my head by society to use this word in the same way, so that I say it to mean things that I don't like.

A world without prejudice? Nice thought, but no way.

Exponentially,
Grant with an "R"


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2004)

^ grant your right the term is used very loosely.

Among straight people, especially my age, its used super loosely, people might use it and not even be referring to someone thats homosexual. For example, someone gets alot of homework and they might say " thats gay that the teacher gave me all this homework". I think because homosexuality isn't fully excepted & still looked down upon they took the word Gay & refer it to negative things in general.

I won't lie i do it & have done it, but its kind like an unconscious thing that im used to.

Also ive read that there is actually a physiological reason for homosexuality in males, its because they actually received a large amount of feminie genes, more so than the average straight male, but not enough to make them a female. I dunno how true that is, but if thats the case how does that apply to female homosexuality?


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2004)

^ grant your right the term is used very loosely.

Among straight people, especially my age, its used super loosely, people might use it and not even be referring to someone thats homosexual. For example, someone gets alot of homework and they might say " thats gay that the teacher gave me all this homework". I think because homosexuality isn't fully excepted & still looked down upon they took the word Gay & refer it to negative things in general.

I won't lie i do it & have done it, but its kind like an unconscious thing that im used to.

Also ive read that there is actually a physiological reason for homosexuality in males, its because they actually received a large amount of feminie genes, more so than the average straight male, but not enough to make them a female. I dunno how true that is, but if thats the case how does that apply to female homosexuality?


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

shlongs are the best thAnG since sliced bread. as long as they dont resemble the pimply likeness of a boohbah. :mrgreen:

im sure i have more to say on this topic but im too worn out to do so at this mo.

peace :wink:


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

shlongs are the best thAnG since sliced bread. as long as they dont resemble the pimply likeness of a boohbah. :mrgreen:

im sure i have more to say on this topic but im too worn out to do so at this mo.

peace :wink:


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

It is NOBODIES business but their own as to their sexual orientation. NONE !


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

It is NOBODIES business but their own as to their sexual orientation. NONE !


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

Well lately I keep seeing these bumper stickers with the stick figure man and woman where its protesting gay marriage and I just wanna puke. Why are people like this?!! But in most cases I guess it's a Christianity thing. But how closed minded do you have to be to think that people are choosing to "sin" and be gay? Like Dreamer said most (if not all) gay people have been gay forever. They didn't just wake up one day and decide to rebel and be gay. It's just frustrating.


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

Well lately I keep seeing these bumper stickers with the stick figure man and woman where its protesting gay marriage and I just wanna puke. Why are people like this?!! But in most cases I guess it's a Christianity thing. But how closed minded do you have to be to think that people are choosing to "sin" and be gay? Like Dreamer said most (if not all) gay people have been gay forever. They didn't just wake up one day and decide to rebel and be gay. It's just frustrating.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2004)

Yep Ive always known. 
Thanks Dreamer, Jason and Shadowness for your replies, they made me feel good.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2004)

Yep Ive always known. 
Thanks Dreamer, Jason and Shadowness for your replies, they made me feel good.


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Hey Grant...

I just saw that your pictures made it back up.

I MISS BAZZ! 

Anyways, I'm glad we are usually one big happy loving family around here. Glad to be feelig the love and acceptance of everyone here...even this old southerner.

terri


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Hey Grant...

I just saw that your pictures made it back up.

I MISS BAZZ! 

Anyways, I'm glad we are usually one big happy loving family around here. Glad to be feelig the love and acceptance of everyone here...even this old southerner.

terri


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Bro,
In response to "how does someone become gay" -- well that's as complex as our brains.

If you go to the link at PBS.org there is information and transcripts from some fascinating documentaries on research into this. Some are very disturbing.

I guess I was surprised by your answer that you didn't know if you would be unsure to continue a friendship with someone you didn't know was gay (if said person came out of the closet). If we agree someone is born gay, then how is that different from discriminating against someone with a different skin color -- something that one is born with?

Studies into sexuality have included babies born with genitals that do not clearly define their sex. Surgery is performed and they are usually raised as girls. Doctors instruct the parents to treat said child as a girl.

The frequently make mistakes. In the brain there is something that makes us male or female, no matter how we are raised (though again there are always exceptions to the rule). And those who have sex change operations later in life, as it has been found -- and research is still in its infancy re: this -- that said individuals are truly programmed to feel/be the sex they were created to be, and their sexual orientation is also governed by this.

For tons of great info from NOVA...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/gender/

*From Nova, "Sex Unknown":*
_"Many babies are born intersex with genitals that did not fully develop in the womb. In such situations, most doctors declare a state of medical emergency, and quickly move to operate in an effort to "fix" the child and give it the appearance of either a male or female.

But this intervention is not always welcome: Many intersex adults that were surgically changed in infancy now insist they should have been given a choice in the matter. In many cases the gender they were assigned at birth does not match the gender they grew to believe they were.

This begs a larger question: How much of our gender identity is formed by nature and how much by nurture? "Sex: Unknown" delves into the complex world of gender identity."_

Also, ALL fetus' begin as female. Many factors in-utero affect how a fetus become male or female, and certainly also affects sexual identity. This is not fully understood, but it is my belief that in most (if not all) cases (there could certainly be exceptions) there is a biological hardwiring.

There is also homosexuality in the animal kingdom. I could give examples but that's a whole other story.

I still say, "Vive la Difference!"

(And I realize I haven't gone into bi-sexuality and lot of other issues. I am trying to focus on the development of male/female sexual orientation... e.g. gay or lesbian.

In Peace,
D :shock:

P.S. -- boy am I out of touch. I have never heard the new slang word "gay" as being used in a derogatory sense. Man things change, and yet they stay the same.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Bro,
In response to "how does someone become gay" -- well that's as complex as our brains.

If you go to the link at PBS.org there is information and transcripts from some fascinating documentaries on research into this. Some are very disturbing.

I guess I was surprised by your answer that you didn't know if you would be unsure to continue a friendship with someone you didn't know was gay (if said person came out of the closet). If we agree someone is born gay, then how is that different from discriminating against someone with a different skin color -- something that one is born with?

Studies into sexuality have included babies born with genitals that do not clearly define their sex. Surgery is performed and they are usually raised as girls. Doctors instruct the parents to treat said child as a girl.

The frequently make mistakes. In the brain there is something that makes us male or female, no matter how we are raised (though again there are always exceptions to the rule). And those who have sex change operations later in life, as it has been found -- and research is still in its infancy re: this -- that said individuals are truly programmed to feel/be the sex they were created to be, and their sexual orientation is also governed by this.

For tons of great info from NOVA...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/gender/

*From Nova, "Sex Unknown":*
_"Many babies are born intersex with genitals that did not fully develop in the womb. In such situations, most doctors declare a state of medical emergency, and quickly move to operate in an effort to "fix" the child and give it the appearance of either a male or female.

But this intervention is not always welcome: Many intersex adults that were surgically changed in infancy now insist they should have been given a choice in the matter. In many cases the gender they were assigned at birth does not match the gender they grew to believe they were.

This begs a larger question: How much of our gender identity is formed by nature and how much by nurture? "Sex: Unknown" delves into the complex world of gender identity."_

Also, ALL fetus' begin as female. Many factors in-utero affect how a fetus become male or female, and certainly also affects sexual identity. This is not fully understood, but it is my belief that in most (if not all) cases (there could certainly be exceptions) there is a biological hardwiring.

There is also homosexuality in the animal kingdom. I could give examples but that's a whole other story.

I still say, "Vive la Difference!"

(And I realize I haven't gone into bi-sexuality and lot of other issues. I am trying to focus on the development of male/female sexual orientation... e.g. gay or lesbian.

In Peace,
D :shock:

P.S. -- boy am I out of touch. I have never heard the new slang word "gay" as being used in a derogatory sense. Man things change, and yet they stay the same.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2004)

I don't know if some might consider this a bit off(I know Wendy didn't).
My partner refuses to carry a man's bag.He loses his keys,phone etc all the time. 
Whenever we go out I'm the bag lady,it all goes into my bag which yep, drives me nuts.
Ladies are you with me?
I keep suggesting that I buy him a bag duh!a novel idea 
He insists that men, I am assuming this means real blokes don't carry bags.
When I ask him why not? he says with a bag he would look gay.
I then ask him why he would care if some people thought he looked gay?
To this he has no answer.He has a set idea about man's bags and that's that.

I think a great deal of this goes on in society.I don't think it's offensive or discriminatory.
I just think that male stereotypes are so ingrained in the mins of both men and women.
How many times have I heard women discuss how they want a sensitive guy but still want him to be a bloke.
It's amusing where both men and women will personally draw their line with dress and grooming etc for men.
Now with the introduction of the term metrosexual,the stereotype is getting broader.
Women have also decided they want a man to be atleast slightly metro.
Shoes are important LOL

All in good fun,Love Shelly

In the words of a famous American comdedian"not that there is anything wrong with it"


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2004)

I don't know if some might consider this a bit off(I know Wendy didn't).
My partner refuses to carry a man's bag.He loses his keys,phone etc all the time. 
Whenever we go out I'm the bag lady,it all goes into my bag which yep, drives me nuts.
Ladies are you with me?
I keep suggesting that I buy him a bag duh!a novel idea 
He insists that men, I am assuming this means real blokes don't carry bags.
When I ask him why not? he says with a bag he would look gay.
I then ask him why he would care if some people thought he looked gay?
To this he has no answer.He has a set idea about man's bags and that's that.

I think a great deal of this goes on in society.I don't think it's offensive or discriminatory.
I just think that male stereotypes are so ingrained in the mins of both men and women.
How many times have I heard women discuss how they want a sensitive guy but still want him to be a bloke.
It's amusing where both men and women will personally draw their line with dress and grooming etc for men.
Now with the introduction of the term metrosexual,the stereotype is getting broader.
Women have also decided they want a man to be atleast slightly metro.
Shoes are important LOL

All in good fun,Love Shelly

In the words of a famous American comdedian"not that there is anything wrong with it"


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Indeed - I have never understood those people who are homophobic. I remember when I was a small child, I was interested in marriage. I asked what if two women were going to be married with each other, or two men, and learned they were called lesbian or gay from my parents. As I was a little girl - fond of princesses and neat gowns - I guess I was interested in the possibility that as an adult I could be married with a woman, cuz in my opinion women were prettier and also the white princess-like wedding gowns were more beautiful than the boring-looking suits of men. :lol:

Well, as I grew up I found I am bisexual, though has never dated a woman in my life. I also have found that I have two different ways of watching people: if I see a good-looking guy in the street, I recognize him in a different way than a good-looking girl. Also, as I like to play with my imagination and therefore love to create different characters in my pass-time science fiction comic project, I have found it is no difficulty for me to imagine of being a straight guy/girl, or gay/lesbian. Of course I never can know what it is really like to be a straight/homosexual person, as I can never be anybody else than myself, but I feel no difficulties in imagining someone's (for example the feelings of some comic character of mine) emotions toward other people, including their sexual orientation.

The only thing I cannot understand is homophobia. Why do some people feel like that, why do they feel so disturbed because of the idea of a man loving a man or a woman loving a woman? I may understand it if the homophobia is fueled by Christianity (sheesh, fundamentalists are weird), but if one is not a religious person and still feels disturbed bc of it? What kind of threat different sexual orientaton can be, as in the end it is love that is involved with the sexual orientation too (at least I wish it is, at least with most people, and I don't feel being too idealistic saying this) :?:

No idea, some people are weird.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Indeed - I have never understood those people who are homophobic. I remember when I was a small child, I was interested in marriage. I asked what if two women were going to be married with each other, or two men, and learned they were called lesbian or gay from my parents. As I was a little girl - fond of princesses and neat gowns - I guess I was interested in the possibility that as an adult I could be married with a woman, cuz in my opinion women were prettier and also the white princess-like wedding gowns were more beautiful than the boring-looking suits of men. :lol:

Well, as I grew up I found I am bisexual, though has never dated a woman in my life. I also have found that I have two different ways of watching people: if I see a good-looking guy in the street, I recognize him in a different way than a good-looking girl. Also, as I like to play with my imagination and therefore love to create different characters in my pass-time science fiction comic project, I have found it is no difficulty for me to imagine of being a straight guy/girl, or gay/lesbian. Of course I never can know what it is really like to be a straight/homosexual person, as I can never be anybody else than myself, but I feel no difficulties in imagining someone's (for example the feelings of some comic character of mine) emotions toward other people, including their sexual orientation.

The only thing I cannot understand is homophobia. Why do some people feel like that, why do they feel so disturbed because of the idea of a man loving a man or a woman loving a woman? I may understand it if the homophobia is fueled by Christianity (sheesh, fundamentalists are weird), but if one is not a religious person and still feels disturbed bc of it? What kind of threat different sexual orientaton can be, as in the end it is love that is involved with the sexual orientation too (at least I wish it is, at least with most people, and I don't feel being too idealistic saying this) :?:

No idea, some people are weird.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2004)

Waaaiiitt a minute. Grants a poof?! Kids today.........and why am I always the last to know.............

Prejudice is a built in feature of the human critter. Every one of us here and everywhere else is guilty of it to one degree or another. We're pack animals, and when somebody exhibits behaviour different than the rest of our pack we single them out and subject them to all sorts of stuff.

I spent much of my youth growing up on Indian reservations. Tall, skinny white kid in amongst a bunch of Indians. Found out all sorts of ways that prejudice can manifest itself. Many times I was simply scared. Other times I felt bad about who I was.

I have always felt "different" being color blind. I tend to keep that to myself in real life. That's because I was teased as a child and I still feel defective somehow because of it.

It sux, but it's completely human. 
Regarding a person's sexual orientation, I guess I come from a relatively tolerant climate. Or maybe I just don't notice the prejudice. I saw a study once that claimed nearly 30% of the people in the city I live in are gay. Same sex marriage is (currently) legal here.

I don't feel any particular need to announce to the world that I am heterosexual. My sexuality is an intrinsic part of who I am, and it is also a personal part. I can't imagine that most people would care that I am straight, for instance. It's just........unnecessary information. I don't understand the need for "Gay Pride" parades. I've never felt the need to be in a "Straight Pride" parade. I've had people tell me they are gay, as if it's some earthshattering news.........and to be honest it hasn't really done much for me either way. And if you're going to tell somebody your orientation, why not get into the nitty gritty - details about exactly HOW you like your sex? Now THAT might be interesting. You take pretty much any sexual act and try to put it into words and things can get interesting fast.

I guess I just don't understand the fuss. I realize that there is widespread prejudice against homosexuals. I consider that a bad thing. At the same time, there is widespread prejudice against many groups and individuals, depending on what part of the world you are in. You drop me into the middle of the Congo and I gaurantee I would not be welcomed. I have felt the same thing when in a gay bar. I'm the different one. The rest of the group is against me. I have a Iraqi friend at work. Things have become different for him around here since 9-11, and even more so since we attacked his country. He is now the enemy to some extent. Definitely being shunned by the rest. Just because he is Persian. He's also gay

It's human nature. And like I said above, everybody here does it to one degree or another. I still think though that as far as sexual orientation...........what business is it of other people? It's not so much a "don't look don't tell" kind of attitude. Sexuality is very personal. Something to be shared amongst individuals. I just don't see the need to continually announce it to the world.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2004)

Waaaiiitt a minute. Grants a poof?! Kids today.........and why am I always the last to know.............

Prejudice is a built in feature of the human critter. Every one of us here and everywhere else is guilty of it to one degree or another. We're pack animals, and when somebody exhibits behaviour different than the rest of our pack we single them out and subject them to all sorts of stuff.

I spent much of my youth growing up on Indian reservations. Tall, skinny white kid in amongst a bunch of Indians. Found out all sorts of ways that prejudice can manifest itself. Many times I was simply scared. Other times I felt bad about who I was.

I have always felt "different" being color blind. I tend to keep that to myself in real life. That's because I was teased as a child and I still feel defective somehow because of it.

It sux, but it's completely human. 
Regarding a person's sexual orientation, I guess I come from a relatively tolerant climate. Or maybe I just don't notice the prejudice. I saw a study once that claimed nearly 30% of the people in the city I live in are gay. Same sex marriage is (currently) legal here.

I don't feel any particular need to announce to the world that I am heterosexual. My sexuality is an intrinsic part of who I am, and it is also a personal part. I can't imagine that most people would care that I am straight, for instance. It's just........unnecessary information. I don't understand the need for "Gay Pride" parades. I've never felt the need to be in a "Straight Pride" parade. I've had people tell me they are gay, as if it's some earthshattering news.........and to be honest it hasn't really done much for me either way. And if you're going to tell somebody your orientation, why not get into the nitty gritty - details about exactly HOW you like your sex? Now THAT might be interesting. You take pretty much any sexual act and try to put it into words and things can get interesting fast.

I guess I just don't understand the fuss. I realize that there is widespread prejudice against homosexuals. I consider that a bad thing. At the same time, there is widespread prejudice against many groups and individuals, depending on what part of the world you are in. You drop me into the middle of the Congo and I gaurantee I would not be welcomed. I have felt the same thing when in a gay bar. I'm the different one. The rest of the group is against me. I have a Iraqi friend at work. Things have become different for him around here since 9-11, and even more so since we attacked his country. He is now the enemy to some extent. Definitely being shunned by the rest. Just because he is Persian. He's also gay

It's human nature. And like I said above, everybody here does it to one degree or another. I still think though that as far as sexual orientation...........what business is it of other people? It's not so much a "don't look don't tell" kind of attitude. Sexuality is very personal. Something to be shared amongst individuals. I just don't see the need to continually announce it to the world.


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## GavinD (Aug 10, 2004)

I am a very tolerant person and I have no prejudices whatsoever....except towards people who are colour blind.

SC, you are a freak of nature! Go and stand in the corner by yourself!



g


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## GavinD (Aug 10, 2004)

I am a very tolerant person and I have no prejudices whatsoever....except towards people who are colour blind.

SC, you are a freak of nature! Go and stand in the corner by yourself!



g


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2004)

even after all these years - that still hurts.......


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2004)

even after all these years - that still hurts.......


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Hey! I thought sc was already in the corner! Who said he could come out of the corner in the first place ???

:wink:

came back on to write - you silly monkey looking thing you! that smile cracks me up.

terri


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Hey! I thought sc was already in the corner! Who said he could come out of the corner in the first place ???

:wink:

came back on to write - you silly monkey looking thing you! that smile cracks me up.

terri


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## grant_r (Aug 25, 2004)

sc said:


> Waaaiiitt a minute. Grants a poof?! Kids today.........and why am I always the last to know.............


If you want to call me that, then yes. I realize you're just joking, but let me use Exhibit A, a quote from March 30 of this year as evidence of your "non-bias":








What do you have to say about that in regards to your current statement, Homophobe? :lol:



sc said:


> as far as sexual orientation...........what business is it of other people?





Martinelv said:


> It is NOBODIES business but their own as to their sexual orientation. NONE !


Maybe you're right. "We" do need to shutup about it already, but we're still trying to get the rights all the "normal" people have. But, like with an African American, will America and the world EVER be prejudice-free? Likely not.

-Grant with an "R"


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## grant_r (Aug 25, 2004)

sc said:


> Waaaiiitt a minute. Grants a poof?! Kids today.........and why am I always the last to know.............


If you want to call me that, then yes. I realize you're just joking, but let me use Exhibit A, a quote from March 30 of this year as evidence of your "non-bias":








What do you have to say about that in regards to your current statement, Homophobe? :lol:



sc said:


> as far as sexual orientation...........what business is it of other people?





Martinelv said:


> It is NOBODIES business but their own as to their sexual orientation. NONE !


Maybe you're right. "We" do need to shutup about it already, but we're still trying to get the rights all the "normal" people have. But, like with an African American, will America and the world EVER be prejudice-free? Likely not.

-Grant with an "R"


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2004)

Might be my computer, but your Exhibit A did not come through. If it was a quote from me I'm sure it was right on point. And Grant, of course I was kidding. I make fun of things that I think are silly. Homophobia is silly. And I only used the word "poof" cause it's British and I am trying to learn that langauge.

p.s. my leetle seester is gay. Has always been open about it. Turns out my parents are not (completely) evil. From what I can tell, I think I was raised in an atmosphere of unusual tolerance for all sorts of differences. 
Hopefully I am continuing the trend with my own children.

edit by me: Of course the world will never be prejudice free. Like I said before, it's part of the human condition. My Iraqi friend at work? Escaped to Syria years ago with one of his sisters. Never again heard from the rest of his family. All because he is Zoesterian (sp?). Apparently that is a branch of the Muslim faith that had been even more oppressed than Sunni. 
Prejudice is not an American problem Grant, and it's not only white middle class men or ultra right wing religous people - it is a human problem. And I think every single one of us is guilty of it to one degree or another.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2004)

Might be my computer, but your Exhibit A did not come through. If it was a quote from me I'm sure it was right on point. And Grant, of course I was kidding. I make fun of things that I think are silly. Homophobia is silly. And I only used the word "poof" cause it's British and I am trying to learn that langauge.

p.s. my leetle seester is gay. Has always been open about it. Turns out my parents are not (completely) evil. From what I can tell, I think I was raised in an atmosphere of unusual tolerance for all sorts of differences. 
Hopefully I am continuing the trend with my own children.

edit by me: Of course the world will never be prejudice free. Like I said before, it's part of the human condition. My Iraqi friend at work? Escaped to Syria years ago with one of his sisters. Never again heard from the rest of his family. All because he is Zoesterian (sp?). Apparently that is a branch of the Muslim faith that had been even more oppressed than Sunni. 
Prejudice is not an American problem Grant, and it's not only white middle class men or ultra right wing religous people - it is a human problem. And I think every single one of us is guilty of it to one degree or another.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

sc said:


> Of course the world will never be prejudice free. Like I said before, it's part of the human condition. --- And I think every single one of us is guilty of it to one degree or another.


Oh, sc, you're right. Though I still have difficulties understanding the reasons of homophobia, I know I personally am prejudiced toward Somalian or other African men in Finland. I feel they have no respect for white Finnish women, and I think like this because sometimes they have tried to seduce me or some of my female friends. Even telling them one has a boyfriend and really has no interest at all, they don't care a sh*t. It seems they must think Finnish women are all some kind of whores?

Dunno. But I should be aware not to blame every African man for that kind of behaviour. However, it seems some bad examples compromise all African men in my thoughts. So I'm not free in relation to prejudices.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

sc said:


> Of course the world will never be prejudice free. Like I said before, it's part of the human condition. --- And I think every single one of us is guilty of it to one degree or another.


Oh, sc, you're right. Though I still have difficulties understanding the reasons of homophobia, I know I personally am prejudiced toward Somalian or other African men in Finland. I feel they have no respect for white Finnish women, and I think like this because sometimes they have tried to seduce me or some of my female friends. Even telling them one has a boyfriend and really has no interest at all, they don't care a sh*t. It seems they must think Finnish women are all some kind of whores?

Dunno. But I should be aware not to blame every African man for that kind of behaviour. However, it seems some bad examples compromise all African men in my thoughts. So I'm not free in relation to prejudices.


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

i think gay people have a long way to go before they can shut up and go with the flow. case in point here in hawaii looks like were sending this arsehole into congress... http://www.mikegabbard.com/home1b.php?bcid=202#family

hes got so much money and backing that his opponent ed case (a family friend) doesnt stand a chance. you should see the money that this f#cknut is putting into his campaign. and its all coming from the republican cookie jar. this guys thinking is so backwards and archaic that it makes me sick to think hes going to represent me in congress. like for instance in the above link one of the first things he says is...

"Every other issue we face, education, taking care of our seniors, crime, the drug problem, all these are connected to the family and therefore traditional marriage."

ummmmm...

WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUCK?????????????????????????



i mean cuuuuuumon!!!!! that doesnt even make sense!!! what is he saying that if a guy marries a guy.. that everyone with automatically turn queer and then there will be no more kids and therefore no more family?? is he serious?? well what if gav and i just happen to become drug dealers and our kids become wards of the state (a horribly common thing here in hawaii) does the fact that i have a vagina and not a penis make this situation OK???? i think mike needs to go crawl back into the hole he emerged from and take all those god fearing retards with him.

(disclaimer.. no offence to any god fearing retards) :twisted:


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

i think gay people have a long way to go before they can shut up and go with the flow. case in point here in hawaii looks like were sending this arsehole into congress... http://www.mikegabbard.com/home1b.php?bcid=202#family

hes got so much money and backing that his opponent ed case (a family friend) doesnt stand a chance. you should see the money that this f#cknut is putting into his campaign. and its all coming from the republican cookie jar. this guys thinking is so backwards and archaic that it makes me sick to think hes going to represent me in congress. like for instance in the above link one of the first things he says is...

"Every other issue we face, education, taking care of our seniors, crime, the drug problem, all these are connected to the family and therefore traditional marriage."

ummmmm...

WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUCK?????????????????????????



i mean cuuuuuumon!!!!! that doesnt even make sense!!! what is he saying that if a guy marries a guy.. that everyone with automatically turn queer and then there will be no more kids and therefore no more family?? is he serious?? well what if gav and i just happen to become drug dealers and our kids become wards of the state (a horribly common thing here in hawaii) does the fact that i have a vagina and not a penis make this situation OK???? i think mike needs to go crawl back into the hole he emerged from and take all those god fearing retards with him.

(disclaimer.. no offence to any god fearing retards) :twisted:


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2004)

..


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2004)

..


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## jc (Aug 10, 2004)

i carry one of those bags,the ones that are designed to hold vinyl albums,i hate carying anything in my pockets...anyway in my local pub because im single and carrying my bag i get the usual 'are you gay' jibes,i just tell them firstly 'sorry to dissapoint you but im not' secondly i tell them 'i know someone in this pub that is gay' when they enquire as to 'who' i just say 'give me a kiss and i will tell you' 
soon shuts them up


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## jc (Aug 10, 2004)

i carry one of those bags,the ones that are designed to hold vinyl albums,i hate carying anything in my pockets...anyway in my local pub because im single and carrying my bag i get the usual 'are you gay' jibes,i just tell them firstly 'sorry to dissapoint you but im not' secondly i tell them 'i know someone in this pub that is gay' when they enquire as to 'who' i just say 'give me a kiss and i will tell you' 
soon shuts them up


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Wendy said:


> Jezus christ sc that was a really disgusting post of yours, especially what you said here:
> 
> "And if you're going to tell somebody your orientation, why not get into the nitty gritty - details about exactly HOW you like your sex? Now THAT might be interesting. You take pretty much any sexual act and try to put it into words and things can get interesting fast."
> 
> Youre a pervert, really. And its none of your bloody business.


Oh wow, I didn't even notice that part of sc's post - I must have skipped that unconsciously, because me too find it disgusting. Indeed, should we start a thread of sexual fantasies, in which all the exhibitionists could reveal themselves to others, who'd like to know that stuff? Ha, sc should reveal hirself first, if being so interested in it. Nope, I wouldn't read that thread though.

If it was my post that made sc write that statement, I apologize. Though I like to imagine things for my comic project, I'm not writing porn but an imaginary tale with human relationships and emotions including love, hate, sorrow etc. No more, no less. And I apologize telling about my sexual orientation here, if that made some people wish I could reveal more. I won't.

And I agree with Wendy here.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Wendy said:


> Jezus christ sc that was a really disgusting post of yours, especially what you said here:
> 
> "And if you're going to tell somebody your orientation, why not get into the nitty gritty - details about exactly HOW you like your sex? Now THAT might be interesting. You take pretty much any sexual act and try to put it into words and things can get interesting fast."
> 
> Youre a pervert, really. And its none of your bloody business.


Oh wow, I didn't even notice that part of sc's post - I must have skipped that unconsciously, because me too find it disgusting. Indeed, should we start a thread of sexual fantasies, in which all the exhibitionists could reveal themselves to others, who'd like to know that stuff? Ha, sc should reveal hirself first, if being so interested in it. Nope, I wouldn't read that thread though.

If it was my post that made sc write that statement, I apologize. Though I like to imagine things for my comic project, I'm not writing porn but an imaginary tale with human relationships and emotions including love, hate, sorrow etc. No more, no less. And I apologize telling about my sexual orientation here, if that made some people wish I could reveal more. I won't.

And I agree with Wendy here.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2004)

My only surprise is it took Wendy so long.....
I stand by my responses though. I don't give a toss if somebody is gay, straight, or somewhere in the middle. And I don't understand the need some folks have for wanting to tell everybody their orientation over and over and over and over. 
Discrimination against somebody because they are attracted to members of their own sex is wrong. Same as discrimination against somebody due to the color of their skin, what religion they choose to practice, etc.

My particular prejudice is towards people who carrry massive amounts of anger, and direct it at others indiscriminately. Blindly attacking, in fact DISCRIMINATING against people who, even if they probably agree with them on an issue - don't quite say it the "right" way. Minds completely closed to anything but their own opinion. All others invald. People who will even stoop so low as to use something as precious as their own sexuality.........as a conduit for hate. 
I find that beyond disgusting. 
I find it sad. 
And the reason the world will always be screwed up.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2004)

My only surprise is it took Wendy so long.....
I stand by my responses though. I don't give a toss if somebody is gay, straight, or somewhere in the middle. And I don't understand the need some folks have for wanting to tell everybody their orientation over and over and over and over. 
Discrimination against somebody because they are attracted to members of their own sex is wrong. Same as discrimination against somebody due to the color of their skin, what religion they choose to practice, etc.

My particular prejudice is towards people who carrry massive amounts of anger, and direct it at others indiscriminately. Blindly attacking, in fact DISCRIMINATING against people who, even if they probably agree with them on an issue - don't quite say it the "right" way. Minds completely closed to anything but their own opinion. All others invald. People who will even stoop so low as to use something as precious as their own sexuality.........as a conduit for hate. 
I find that beyond disgusting. 
I find it sad. 
And the reason the world will always be screwed up.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Well, sc, it seems we both are in the same side in relation to the opinions you just expressed. I also guess some people want to tell about their sexual orientation over and over again, because they feel threatened due to the prejudices toward them - so telling everyone oneself being homosexual might be some kind of counterattack? Dunno. But as this is a thread of sexual orientation, which is a kind of sensitive subject, I wish everyone would express their opinions in a sensitive way too. That's my only wish. And I'm sorry for my not-so-sensitive previous reply, but reading the quote of sc's post just made me a bit angry.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Well, sc, it seems we both are in the same side in relation to the opinions you just expressed. I also guess some people want to tell about their sexual orientation over and over again, because they feel threatened due to the prejudices toward them - so telling everyone oneself being homosexual might be some kind of counterattack? Dunno. But as this is a thread of sexual orientation, which is a kind of sensitive subject, I wish everyone would express their opinions in a sensitive way too. That's my only wish. And I'm sorry for my not-so-sensitive previous reply, but reading the quote of sc's post just made me a bit angry.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2004)

..


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2004)

..


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2004)

Great. I'm being taught about prejudice from a heterophobic lesbian....

Sorry Grant, I will exit this thread. I only hope there will be others join in who actually represent the gay community, rather than whatever it is Wendy is pushing..........


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2004)

Great. I'm being taught about prejudice from a heterophobic lesbian....

Sorry Grant, I will exit this thread. I only hope there will be others join in who actually represent the gay community, rather than whatever it is Wendy is pushing..........


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

sc said:


> Great. I'm being taught about prejudice from a heterophobic lesbian....
> 
> Sorry Grant, I will exit this thread. I only hope there will be others join in who actually represent the gay community, rather than whatever it is Wendy is pushing..........


Unbelievable insensitivity. I could say I just do not understand the reason for this provocation - what kind of joy sc gains by replying like this, upsetting people on purpose? And it goes just against what sc just said about discriminating people. Sc, don't be so blind to yourself and see the flaw only in others, it is just plain stupid - and sad.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

sc said:


> Great. I'm being taught about prejudice from a heterophobic lesbian....
> 
> Sorry Grant, I will exit this thread. I only hope there will be others join in who actually represent the gay community, rather than whatever it is Wendy is pushing..........


Unbelievable insensitivity. I could say I just do not understand the reason for this provocation - what kind of joy sc gains by replying like this, upsetting people on purpose? And it goes just against what sc just said about discriminating people. Sc, don't be so blind to yourself and see the flaw only in others, it is just plain stupid - and sad.


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## JAG (Aug 31, 2004)

I'm a heterosexual male (photo available upon request)

The reason that gays talk about their sexuality via Gay Parades and the like, is because individuals are judged so harshly once it is discovered they are gay. So they march and protest with the hopes of getting society's attention. Basically they are yelling out to society that "Yes, we're gay and we want everyone to know that we're gay so that you won't be shocked to find out later and then treat us differently."

I mean if you're heterosexual people just expect it and no one minds. However, lots of people mind if you're gay.

Yours completely heterosexually,
WasDrPepper


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## JAG (Aug 31, 2004)

I'm a heterosexual male (photo available upon request)

The reason that gays talk about their sexuality via Gay Parades and the like, is because individuals are judged so harshly once it is discovered they are gay. So they march and protest with the hopes of getting society's attention. Basically they are yelling out to society that "Yes, we're gay and we want everyone to know that we're gay so that you won't be shocked to find out later and then treat us differently."

I mean if you're heterosexual people just expect it and no one minds. However, lots of people mind if you're gay.

Yours completely heterosexually,
WasDrPepper


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Yup I agree w/Dr. Pepper. And SC I did find your comment insensitive.

Oh, shoot I have so many thoughts on this, as always I have 20 things to say.

Any disenfranchised group will raise Cain in one way or another to be heard, and it is rarely acceptable to those groups who don't believe in their behavior.

Women trying to get the vote
Blacks trying to get a ride on the white folks' part of the bus and to drink out of a white drinking fountain and to get some respect
Women wanting further equal opportunities ... this goes on and on throughout history.

In the process of these struggles, bad stuff happens, like riots, extremes Gloria Steinam SP? (I hate her) HATING MEN. That's the extremes some go to to get their point across, mainly re: equality. And with gays, I very much agree about gay civil unions.

My half-brother is gay (my mother had him at 15 and he was adopted) he's in his 70s and I in my 40s.... he was born in 1932. Anyway, *his partnership to one man has lasted longer than many marriages I know. Over 40 years.* There are MANY monogamous gay couples (and I include my long time childhood friend) who are like this, and must pretend that their partners are "very close friends". Some of these couples raise families that are more functional than many hetoerosexual families. The kids turn out just fine, and don't turn out gay, LOL, which is a stupid fear among opponents of that practice.

My half brother lives in Orange County, CA -- the most conservative part of the L.A. area I can think of. Ah, and I don't like him, haven't spoken to him since he found my mother (on the phone) and me (in person) ... HE's a bigot, about all "people of color" LOL. So, I don't speak to him or even know if he' alive or dead now, not because he's gay, but because he's a bigot.

A friend and I took a gay friend to the Folsom Street Fair in San Francisco -- Castro District. Wow, it is Mardi Gras for gay people, lesbian and homosexual. The gay friend found it distasteful. He saw this as only ONE GROUP of gay people whom he felt identify themselves first by their gayness, then as human beings. He said he would never live in the Castro district. He is a human being first, and a gay man is just part of who he is.

No one accosted me at the fair and I happily paid the 5 buck admission fee which was going to AIDS research, which doesn't just affect gays.

*Ah, and Carnival in New Orleans and Rio is the ultimate heterosexual sex fest, held every year. Bare those breasts!  *

At any rate, not all gay people act the same, any more than any other rejected minority, such as a Middle Eastern person today, blacks, women, etc., etc. *Ah, and the MENTALLY ILL.* Stereotyped up and down. All of us here are UNIQUE (my old mantra), we can't be pideonholed either. And there are many heterosexual couples who display more than enough "loving behavior" in public. More than just holding hands. Most people DO keep their sex lives behind closed doors. They don't on Jerry Springer!

*Ah, then I had a question. SC, not an angry question, but when did you find out your little sister was gay? How old were you, and how old was she? It IS cool that your family was so accepting. My childhood friend can't tell her mother and never will. They are distanct physically and emotionally because she can't share her life with her mother. She only shared this with her sister and a few friends.*

This is so hard to discuss again as I'd rather TALK about it.
Very difficult.

Peace,
D :shock:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Yup I agree w/Dr. Pepper. And SC I did find your comment insensitive.

Oh, shoot I have so many thoughts on this, as always I have 20 things to say.

Any disenfranchised group will raise Cain in one way or another to be heard, and it is rarely acceptable to those groups who don't believe in their behavior.

Women trying to get the vote
Blacks trying to get a ride on the white folks' part of the bus and to drink out of a white drinking fountain and to get some respect
Women wanting further equal opportunities ... this goes on and on throughout history.

In the process of these struggles, bad stuff happens, like riots, extremes Gloria Steinam SP? (I hate her) HATING MEN. That's the extremes some go to to get their point across, mainly re: equality. And with gays, I very much agree about gay civil unions.

My half-brother is gay (my mother had him at 15 and he was adopted) he's in his 70s and I in my 40s.... he was born in 1932. Anyway, *his partnership to one man has lasted longer than many marriages I know. Over 40 years.* There are MANY monogamous gay couples (and I include my long time childhood friend) who are like this, and must pretend that their partners are "very close friends". Some of these couples raise families that are more functional than many hetoerosexual families. The kids turn out just fine, and don't turn out gay, LOL, which is a stupid fear among opponents of that practice.

My half brother lives in Orange County, CA -- the most conservative part of the L.A. area I can think of. Ah, and I don't like him, haven't spoken to him since he found my mother (on the phone) and me (in person) ... HE's a bigot, about all "people of color" LOL. So, I don't speak to him or even know if he' alive or dead now, not because he's gay, but because he's a bigot.

A friend and I took a gay friend to the Folsom Street Fair in San Francisco -- Castro District. Wow, it is Mardi Gras for gay people, lesbian and homosexual. The gay friend found it distasteful. He saw this as only ONE GROUP of gay people whom he felt identify themselves first by their gayness, then as human beings. He said he would never live in the Castro district. He is a human being first, and a gay man is just part of who he is.

No one accosted me at the fair and I happily paid the 5 buck admission fee which was going to AIDS research, which doesn't just affect gays.

*Ah, and Carnival in New Orleans and Rio is the ultimate heterosexual sex fest, held every year. Bare those breasts!  *

At any rate, not all gay people act the same, any more than any other rejected minority, such as a Middle Eastern person today, blacks, women, etc., etc. *Ah, and the MENTALLY ILL.* Stereotyped up and down. All of us here are UNIQUE (my old mantra), we can't be pideonholed either. And there are many heterosexual couples who display more than enough "loving behavior" in public. More than just holding hands. Most people DO keep their sex lives behind closed doors. They don't on Jerry Springer!

*Ah, then I had a question. SC, not an angry question, but when did you find out your little sister was gay? How old were you, and how old was she? It IS cool that your family was so accepting. My childhood friend can't tell her mother and never will. They are distanct physically and emotionally because she can't share her life with her mother. She only shared this with her sister and a few friends.*

This is so hard to discuss again as I'd rather TALK about it.
Very difficult.

Peace,
D :shock:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Yeah, just thought of this. As a member of NAMI, the National Alliance for the Mentally ill, I have been very open about my mental illness. Some people find that horrifying. But I believe that mental illness should be treated like any other illness.

I want equal insurance coverage

I want to be able to apply for a job without fear of discrimination if someone goes snooping around my medical records -- I don't tell employers I have problems.

I don't want to have to apologize for having an illness. Diabetics don't apologize, heart patients don't, etc., etc.....

The mentally ill are treated like pariahs. So there are walks, media coverage, T-Shirts, rallies ... and these really disgust people who think the mentally ill are violent, "retarded", "dangerous", CONTAGIOUS.

Holy Cow.
There you go.
I'm a disgrace as well, LOL, as a Mental Health Advocate sittin' out there on the web with my life exposed. I've lost some old friends since I "came out of the closet", but those who care about me are still there. Bless 'em.
Peace,
D :shock:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Yeah, just thought of this. As a member of NAMI, the National Alliance for the Mentally ill, I have been very open about my mental illness. Some people find that horrifying. But I believe that mental illness should be treated like any other illness.

I want equal insurance coverage

I want to be able to apply for a job without fear of discrimination if someone goes snooping around my medical records -- I don't tell employers I have problems.

I don't want to have to apologize for having an illness. Diabetics don't apologize, heart patients don't, etc., etc.....

The mentally ill are treated like pariahs. So there are walks, media coverage, T-Shirts, rallies ... and these really disgust people who think the mentally ill are violent, "retarded", "dangerous", CONTAGIOUS.

Holy Cow.
There you go.
I'm a disgrace as well, LOL, as a Mental Health Advocate sittin' out there on the web with my life exposed. I've lost some old friends since I "came out of the closet", but those who care about me are still there. Bless 'em.
Peace,
D :shock:


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## JAG (Aug 31, 2004)

Dreamer, maybe you lost some friends when you came "out of the closet", but you also gained some. Because you decided to expose your life on the Internet you helped me self-diagnose my condition, which later lead me to get a diagnosis from a psychiatrist. Thanks again.


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## JAG (Aug 31, 2004)

Dreamer, maybe you lost some friends when you came "out of the closet", but you also gained some. Because you decided to expose your life on the Internet you helped me self-diagnose my condition, which later lead me to get a diagnosis from a psychiatrist. Thanks again.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2004)

You know whats funny & kind of ironic about a post like this. Someone makes a post ASKING FOR OPINIONS, and someone ( sc) gives his opinion and people get " offended".

If you don't want to hear his opinion DON'T MAKE THE POST ASKING FOR OPINIONS! its as simple as that man, jesus christ, we aren't little kids. You think what SC said is offensive??? I guess you've never been outside in the real world where discrimination goes on every single day. Is it right?? No, but unfortunatly its a part of our damn society. I have no problems with GAY people and i really don't know any gay people, but what i do know is, people need to think about the fact that this is an OPINION oriented post, so therefore someone shouldn't get singled out because of their opinion, especially a dude like SC. When has anyone ever seen him make any derogatory posts or comments towards anyone?? I never have, matter of fact what he said wasn't even offensive. I can see if he said something like " yeah i hate *******, they shouldn't have equal rights" but whathe said wasn't even close.

I know of some kid, who lived around the way, and he was gay & one night a bunch of dudes, jumped him and beat him up pretty bad. NOW THATS DISCRIMINATION YOU SHOULD GET OFFENDED OVER.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2004)

You know whats funny & kind of ironic about a post like this. Someone makes a post ASKING FOR OPINIONS, and someone ( sc) gives his opinion and people get " offended".

If you don't want to hear his opinion DON'T MAKE THE POST ASKING FOR OPINIONS! its as simple as that man, jesus christ, we aren't little kids. You think what SC said is offensive??? I guess you've never been outside in the real world where discrimination goes on every single day. Is it right?? No, but unfortunatly its a part of our damn society. I have no problems with GAY people and i really don't know any gay people, but what i do know is, people need to think about the fact that this is an OPINION oriented post, so therefore someone shouldn't get singled out because of their opinion, especially a dude like SC. When has anyone ever seen him make any derogatory posts or comments towards anyone?? I never have, matter of fact what he said wasn't even offensive. I can see if he said something like " yeah i hate *******, they shouldn't have equal rights" but whathe said wasn't even close.

I know of some kid, who lived around the way, and he was gay & one night a bunch of dudes, jumped him and beat him up pretty bad. NOW THATS DISCRIMINATION YOU SHOULD GET OFFENDED OVER.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2004)

..


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2004)

..


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Well, damn!


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Well, damn!


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2004)

I haven't read any responses to this thread since the last one I put up. It was getting very ugly very fast. I post now to offer an apology to anyone I may have offended with my opinions. Or more likely - the way I presented my opinions. I honestly think most people here are on the same page as far as the gay/straight thing.

This particular topic is sensitive for some people - me included. I grew up watching the abuse a family member had to endure simply because she is lesbian. I have both given and suffered actual physical injury attempting to protect her rights to be who she is. 
I firmly believe that anger, hatred coming from within that group...........is detrimental to the entire homosexual community. And will always, always voice my opinion to that effect when challenged. 
That said - I apologize to anyone I may have offended. Like I say, I'm a little sensitive on the topic and can easily go off.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2004)

I haven't read any responses to this thread since the last one I put up. It was getting very ugly very fast. I post now to offer an apology to anyone I may have offended with my opinions. Or more likely - the way I presented my opinions. I honestly think most people here are on the same page as far as the gay/straight thing.

This particular topic is sensitive for some people - me included. I grew up watching the abuse a family member had to endure simply because she is lesbian. I have both given and suffered actual physical injury attempting to protect her rights to be who she is. 
I firmly believe that anger, hatred coming from within that group...........is detrimental to the entire homosexual community. And will always, always voice my opinion to that effect when challenged. 
That said - I apologize to anyone I may have offended. Like I say, I'm a little sensitive on the topic and can easily go off.


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## GavinD (Aug 10, 2004)

I think SC has a point. If we want to put a stop to the perpetuation of hompohobia then everyone, straight or gay has a responsibility to consider ANY sexual orientation as ordinary and unremarkable. But unfortunately, just as there are still some straight people who see homosexuality as something that needs to be treated as far from ordinary, so too are there gays who let their side down by presenting their sexuality as extraordinary. For example, I think of the comedian Graham Norton. Now, I admit he has made me laugh occasionally, but for the most part he seems to have one running joke.....that he's gay. So if he says something rather mundane that would otherwise be unfunny, he can still get a laugh by saying it in a camp voice and letting his wrist go limp. Similarly, cast your minds back to 'Are You Being Served' (I think that was popular in the US as well as here). When John Inman's charcter entered the scene he declared 'I'm freeee!' and the canned laughter went off like crazy. Now there's nothing funny about saying 'I'm free' in a shop...anyone who's worked in a shop knows it's the sort of thing you say a hundred times a day. No, it's because he stands like a teapot and says it in the most exaggeratedly camp way. So the joke is not that he's free to serve a customer, but that he's gay....implying that homosexuality is amusing per se. I know that comedy like that is just appealing to the lowest common denominator and that it's the fault of society at large as much as anything, but the stereotypes have been perpetuated by certain gay people over the years and so therefore blame for prejudice cannot be solely laid at the feet of heterosexuals. 
As for gay pride marches, I have no real problem with them because they maybe are not reflecting on the way things are now but rather on the persecution gay people have overcome in the past. But when it comes to 'positive discrimination' like gay and lesbian job fairs I draw the line. As far as I can see that does nothing but put a wedge between the heterosexual community and the homosexual community, when the real aim should be to unite both communities into one.

Hopefully there will come a tme when homosexuality is no longer regarded as extraordinary, positively or negatively.

g


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## GavinD (Aug 10, 2004)

I think SC has a point. If we want to put a stop to the perpetuation of hompohobia then everyone, straight or gay has a responsibility to consider ANY sexual orientation as ordinary and unremarkable. But unfortunately, just as there are still some straight people who see homosexuality as something that needs to be treated as far from ordinary, so too are there gays who let their side down by presenting their sexuality as extraordinary. For example, I think of the comedian Graham Norton. Now, I admit he has made me laugh occasionally, but for the most part he seems to have one running joke.....that he's gay. So if he says something rather mundane that would otherwise be unfunny, he can still get a laugh by saying it in a camp voice and letting his wrist go limp. Similarly, cast your minds back to 'Are You Being Served' (I think that was popular in the US as well as here). When John Inman's charcter entered the scene he declared 'I'm freeee!' and the canned laughter went off like crazy. Now there's nothing funny about saying 'I'm free' in a shop...anyone who's worked in a shop knows it's the sort of thing you say a hundred times a day. No, it's because he stands like a teapot and says it in the most exaggeratedly camp way. So the joke is not that he's free to serve a customer, but that he's gay....implying that homosexuality is amusing per se. I know that comedy like that is just appealing to the lowest common denominator and that it's the fault of society at large as much as anything, but the stereotypes have been perpetuated by certain gay people over the years and so therefore blame for prejudice cannot be solely laid at the feet of heterosexuals. 
As for gay pride marches, I have no real problem with them because they maybe are not reflecting on the way things are now but rather on the persecution gay people have overcome in the past. But when it comes to 'positive discrimination' like gay and lesbian job fairs I draw the line. As far as I can see that does nothing but put a wedge between the heterosexual community and the homosexual community, when the real aim should be to unite both communities into one.

Hopefully there will come a tme when homosexuality is no longer regarded as extraordinary, positively or negatively.

g


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

gavin.. dont make me tell everyone about our trek across mordor. :wink:


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

gavin.. dont make me tell everyone about our trek across mordor. :wink:


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## GavinD (Aug 10, 2004)

I dunno what you might mean! Are you referring to my homoerotic reinactment of lord of the rings? Whatever i said or did that night i hold no responsibility for whatsoever...trekking across miles of lava in the dark is enough to make anyone start talking crazy. And anyway, you're a bad influence on me...I was a good boy before I met you. I didn't curse or anything but i came back to England with a potty mouth, you should be ashamed!!!



g


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## GavinD (Aug 10, 2004)

I dunno what you might mean! Are you referring to my homoerotic reinactment of lord of the rings? Whatever i said or did that night i hold no responsibility for whatsoever...trekking across miles of lava in the dark is enough to make anyone start talking crazy. And anyway, you're a bad influence on me...I was a good boy before I met you. I didn't curse or anything but i came back to England with a potty mouth, you should be ashamed!!!



g


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## grant_r (Aug 25, 2004)

Wow. All I want to say is look at yourselves. I won't even mention a name, because we all know that we're all to blame for that little arguement.

It's not that we don't hate gay people or that we do, it's how we say things. And how we respond.

Please, folks. Stop, think, then talk. Really, must you?

Thanks for trying to help, but be careful. And be open-minded. Especially in a sensitive topic like this.

Bottom line: Before you post, think about how you will affect others. We don't even need this thread here; it has fairly little to do with DP directly anyway.

-Grant


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## grant_r (Aug 25, 2004)

Wow. All I want to say is look at yourselves. I won't even mention a name, because we all know that we're all to blame for that little arguement.

It's not that we don't hate gay people or that we do, it's how we say things. And how we respond.

Please, folks. Stop, think, then talk. Really, must you?

Thanks for trying to help, but be careful. And be open-minded. Especially in a sensitive topic like this.

Bottom line: Before you post, think about how you will affect others. We don't even need this thread here; it has fairly little to do with DP directly anyway.

-Grant


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## JAG (Aug 31, 2004)

Tact is definitely a virtue.


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## JAG (Aug 31, 2004)

Tact is definitely a virtue.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Ya'll beat me to this. I was also going to say, it seems 90% of the arguments on this Board are not about divergent opinions, but the way they are presented.

It's easy on the Internet to be less that tactful, as Dr. Pepper said. I always wonder how we would talk to each other in person, on any topic. There is something to be said about diplomacy. One can disagree without attacking someone.

Dr. P, thanks for your comment on my "coming out" ... appreciated.

Nona Nobis Pacem,
D :shock:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Ya'll beat me to this. I was also going to say, it seems 90% of the arguments on this Board are not about divergent opinions, but the way they are presented.

It's easy on the Internet to be less that tactful, as Dr. Pepper said. I always wonder how we would talk to each other in person, on any topic. There is something to be said about diplomacy. One can disagree without attacking someone.

Dr. P, thanks for your comment on my "coming out" ... appreciated.

Nona Nobis Pacem,
D :shock:


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## GavinD (Aug 10, 2004)

To be honest I cannot see what has been said that is so offensive. WasDrPepper makes a good point that tact is a virtue. Well, so is tolerance and so is honesty. Tolerance of people's opinions, even if they differ from our own is as important as tolerance of people's lifestyle UNLESS that opinion is so hateful that is it not possible to tolerate. Nobody who has replied on this thread has come anywhere near falling into that category. Honesty is also a virtue because if everyone was to lie or adjust their own opinion to fit in with the general consensus and not rock the boat at all then it would completely defeat the point of starting threads like this in the first place.

Grant, I'm very surprised by your reaction to this. You asked for a debate....I thought that seeing as the result has been a wide range of viewpoints you'd have been pleased. But it seems to me you only wanted certain answers and what you've found is that the answers you've got are not the one's you wanted to hear. I'm really intruiged to know exactly wht it is that's been said that is so tactless. I'm a person who values highly tact and reason and polite behaviour. If I get a whiff of tactlessness I get ratty, even if the person on the receiving end holds a completely different viewpoint to myself. Well, I've read every post on this thread and I'm not getting a whiff of anything...

...maybe just a bit of over-sensetivity?

peace

g


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## GavinD (Aug 10, 2004)

To be honest I cannot see what has been said that is so offensive. WasDrPepper makes a good point that tact is a virtue. Well, so is tolerance and so is honesty. Tolerance of people's opinions, even if they differ from our own is as important as tolerance of people's lifestyle UNLESS that opinion is so hateful that is it not possible to tolerate. Nobody who has replied on this thread has come anywhere near falling into that category. Honesty is also a virtue because if everyone was to lie or adjust their own opinion to fit in with the general consensus and not rock the boat at all then it would completely defeat the point of starting threads like this in the first place.

Grant, I'm very surprised by your reaction to this. You asked for a debate....I thought that seeing as the result has been a wide range of viewpoints you'd have been pleased. But it seems to me you only wanted certain answers and what you've found is that the answers you've got are not the one's you wanted to hear. I'm really intruiged to know exactly wht it is that's been said that is so tactless. I'm a person who values highly tact and reason and polite behaviour. If I get a whiff of tactlessness I get ratty, even if the person on the receiving end holds a completely different viewpoint to myself. Well, I've read every post on this thread and I'm not getting a whiff of anything...

...maybe just a bit of over-sensetivity?

peace

g


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2004)

Hello, my name is Clay, and I'm a fool. For getting back into this thread.

Gavin says.........."unless that opinion is so hateful......

Exhibit #1: "Jesus Christ sc, that was a really disgusting post of yours. You're a pervert, really." - Wendy
That, to me, is a hateful opinion. Attacking, judgemental, and....hateful. Following my response to that I simply left the thread. I am very sensitive to negative energy, and when it gets thrown at me as blatantly as that I tend to wanna leave the area. My response to the attack was a (clumsy) attempt at self defense. 
I later posted an apology, as I am not comfortable with trying to act mean. I also sent a pm apology to Wendy. Not for my opinions, but for how I expressed them. I was disappointed for letting myself be dragged down to the level of "hateful."

Certain topics tend to be more......lively than others. Those, to me are the most interesting reads - so long as nobody is being attacked for thinking what they think. 
My opinion is utterly unique, and therefore important. As is yours, and as is everyone else's. These differing opinions are of exactly equal value. 
When "opinions" becomes judgements, attacks on another person's opinion........that's when the fireworks start.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2004)

Hello, my name is Clay, and I'm a fool. For getting back into this thread.

Gavin says.........."unless that opinion is so hateful......

Exhibit #1: "Jesus Christ sc, that was a really disgusting post of yours. You're a pervert, really." - Wendy
That, to me, is a hateful opinion. Attacking, judgemental, and....hateful. Following my response to that I simply left the thread. I am very sensitive to negative energy, and when it gets thrown at me as blatantly as that I tend to wanna leave the area. My response to the attack was a (clumsy) attempt at self defense. 
I later posted an apology, as I am not comfortable with trying to act mean. I also sent a pm apology to Wendy. Not for my opinions, but for how I expressed them. I was disappointed for letting myself be dragged down to the level of "hateful."

Certain topics tend to be more......lively than others. Those, to me are the most interesting reads - so long as nobody is being attacked for thinking what they think. 
My opinion is utterly unique, and therefore important. As is yours, and as is everyone else's. These differing opinions are of exactly equal value. 
When "opinions" becomes judgements, attacks on another person's opinion........that's when the fireworks start.


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## Axel19 (Aug 11, 2004)

I think Angela summed it up really. I know we enjoy debating and coming up with something biting and cutting edge, but the topic of homosexuality really is as simple as that in my opinion. We need not overcomplicate things.


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## Axel19 (Aug 11, 2004)

I think Angela summed it up really. I know we enjoy debating and coming up with something biting and cutting edge, but the topic of homosexuality really is as simple as that in my opinion. We need not overcomplicate things.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

sc said:


> Exhibit #1: "Jesus Christ sc, that was a really disgusting post of yours. You're a pervert, really."
> That, to me, is a hateful opinion. Attacking, judgemental, and....hateful. Following my response to that I simply left the thread. --- My opinion is utterly unique, and therefore important. As is yours, and as is everyone else's. These differing opinions are of exactly equal value.


Hi sc, I guess you got that kind of response in the first place because you were so provocative in your post before that response. Well, there is a proverb in Finland: "Joka vanhoja muistaa, sit? tikulla silm??n" -> "Who starts digging up the old flaws, one should be poked with a stick to one's eye"; my free translation. But I'll do it though, as also I found your comment of exposing one's sexual behaviour to others discomforting, ignorant and insensitive, even disgusting to be honest. It was a very provocating comment, and posting comments like that one should keep in mind people may get hurt bc of them - especially if people have posted some very sensitive stuff before the thoughtless comment of yours. So I'm totally with Wendy in this issue and feel she had every right to feel bad about it.

Anyway, we all are just human and make mistakes, as it is human behaviour. Hopefully we all can think twice before we post any stuff that might hurt others, including me. So I'm sorry if this post of mine made you feel uncomfortable, as that isn't my aim. I only want to show you that discussing about sexual orientation is a kind of sensitive issue, and handling issues like that, one should be very careful what to say, not to hurt anybody. Human communication is difficult, but without communication there wouldn't be any community, including this one online.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

sc said:


> Exhibit #1: "Jesus Christ sc, that was a really disgusting post of yours. You're a pervert, really."
> That, to me, is a hateful opinion. Attacking, judgemental, and....hateful. Following my response to that I simply left the thread. --- My opinion is utterly unique, and therefore important. As is yours, and as is everyone else's. These differing opinions are of exactly equal value.


Hi sc, I guess you got that kind of response in the first place because you were so provocative in your post before that response. Well, there is a proverb in Finland: "Joka vanhoja muistaa, sit? tikulla silm??n" -> "Who starts digging up the old flaws, one should be poked with a stick to one's eye"; my free translation. But I'll do it though, as also I found your comment of exposing one's sexual behaviour to others discomforting, ignorant and insensitive, even disgusting to be honest. It was a very provocating comment, and posting comments like that one should keep in mind people may get hurt bc of them - especially if people have posted some very sensitive stuff before the thoughtless comment of yours. So I'm totally with Wendy in this issue and feel she had every right to feel bad about it.

Anyway, we all are just human and make mistakes, as it is human behaviour. Hopefully we all can think twice before we post any stuff that might hurt others, including me. So I'm sorry if this post of mine made you feel uncomfortable, as that isn't my aim. I only want to show you that discussing about sexual orientation is a kind of sensitive issue, and handling issues like that, one should be very careful what to say, not to hurt anybody. Human communication is difficult, but without communication there wouldn't be any community, including this one online.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2004)

Someone else who considers my opinions disgusting, etc. ...........

Back to my original response in this thread: you quote (out of context) a portion of what I said. That (taken out of context) portion was meant as an example. A "for instance". For instance: what possible interest would I have in someone's sexual orientation? How does that information help me? What business is it of mine whether you or anyone else prefers sex with a woman or a man? Answer: none. It is none of my business. What's more - I don't care. I honestly could not care less whether you or anyone else prefers having sex with men or women. Any more than I care what KIND of sex you prefer, which is why I added the example that you use (out of context).

If you find the fact that I do not care who you have sex with disgusting, so be it. But the fact remains - beyond supporting your right to have sex with whomever you want to - I do not care. 
I have apologized to anyone I may have offended. I did not mean to offend anyone. If that is not good enough - oh well, it's the best I can do in this format. And I am definitely out of this thread now. Because I DO care that I am being tempted to lower myself to passing judgement, name calling, etc. Because, to me, THAT is disgusting.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2004)

Someone else who considers my opinions disgusting, etc. ...........

Back to my original response in this thread: you quote (out of context) a portion of what I said. That (taken out of context) portion was meant as an example. A "for instance". For instance: what possible interest would I have in someone's sexual orientation? How does that information help me? What business is it of mine whether you or anyone else prefers sex with a woman or a man? Answer: none. It is none of my business. What's more - I don't care. I honestly could not care less whether you or anyone else prefers having sex with men or women. Any more than I care what KIND of sex you prefer, which is why I added the example that you use (out of context).

If you find the fact that I do not care who you have sex with disgusting, so be it. But the fact remains - beyond supporting your right to have sex with whomever you want to - I do not care. 
I have apologized to anyone I may have offended. I did not mean to offend anyone. If that is not good enough - oh well, it's the best I can do in this format. And I am definitely out of this thread now. Because I DO care that I am being tempted to lower myself to passing judgement, name calling, etc. Because, to me, THAT is disgusting.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2004)

--


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2004)

--


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## grant_r (Aug 25, 2004)

This is what all the mess is about, to my knowledge:


sc said:


> And if you're going to tell somebody your orientation, why not get into the nitty gritty - details about exactly HOW you like your sex? Now THAT might be interesting. You take pretty much any sexual act and try to put it into words and things can get interesting fast.


It's pretty obvious he was complaining about our pride in announcing ourselves. He's saying that we do it to an extreme, is what I thought.

And in response to Gav:


GavinD said:


> Grant, I'm very surprised by your reaction to this. You asked for a debate....I thought that seeing as the result has been a wide range of viewpoints you'd have been pleased. But it seems to me you only wanted certain answers and what you've found is that the answers you've got are not the one's you wanted to hear. I'm really intruiged to know exactly wht it is that's been said that is so tactless. I'm a person who values highly tact and reason and polite behaviour. If I get a whiff of tactlessness I get ratty, even if the person on the receiving end holds a completely different viewpoint to myself. Well, I've read every post on this thread and I'm not getting a whiff of anything...


I was NOT asking for a debate, but rather opinions. Asking for a debate is like asking for gay bashing and hetero-bashing. I'm happy for all the opinions, but the fighting got out of hand. It's all in how you say the things you say, and we can't possibly express the things we want to in the confines if the 'Net. Please realize it was only the fight that got my response to be that way... even though hatred is also a problem.

And sc, I do realize you were joking in calling me a "poof." I was kidding as well.

-Grant


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## grant_r (Aug 25, 2004)

This is what all the mess is about, to my knowledge:


sc said:


> And if you're going to tell somebody your orientation, why not get into the nitty gritty - details about exactly HOW you like your sex? Now THAT might be interesting. You take pretty much any sexual act and try to put it into words and things can get interesting fast.


It's pretty obvious he was complaining about our pride in announcing ourselves. He's saying that we do it to an extreme, is what I thought.

And in response to Gav:


GavinD said:


> Grant, I'm very surprised by your reaction to this. You asked for a debate....I thought that seeing as the result has been a wide range of viewpoints you'd have been pleased. But it seems to me you only wanted certain answers and what you've found is that the answers you've got are not the one's you wanted to hear. I'm really intruiged to know exactly wht it is that's been said that is so tactless. I'm a person who values highly tact and reason and polite behaviour. If I get a whiff of tactlessness I get ratty, even if the person on the receiving end holds a completely different viewpoint to myself. Well, I've read every post on this thread and I'm not getting a whiff of anything...


I was NOT asking for a debate, but rather opinions. Asking for a debate is like asking for gay bashing and hetero-bashing. I'm happy for all the opinions, but the fighting got out of hand. It's all in how you say the things you say, and we can't possibly express the things we want to in the confines if the 'Net. Please realize it was only the fight that got my response to be that way... even though hatred is also a problem.

And sc, I do realize you were joking in calling me a "poof." I was kidding as well.

-Grant


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## JAG (Aug 31, 2004)

There is a perfectly good reason why you guys are sensitive about the issue. You get upset because of how you think. It's not what someone says in the posts. It's what you think about what someone says that upsets you.

Hope this makes sense. If not, I tried.


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## JAG (Aug 31, 2004)

There is a perfectly good reason why you guys are sensitive about the issue. You get upset because of how you think. It's not what someone says in the posts. It's what you think about what someone says that upsets you.

Hope this makes sense. If not, I tried.


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Oh my God, this is like jumping into a big pile of poo. Here goes my very humble opinion. This is what I thought when I read sc's first statement...

Does anyone watch Will and Grace? If one of the zaney characters would have made the now infamous, in poor taste, offending, remark...the audiance would have laughed. It would be called comedy relief. I know when singled out it is highly offensive. The rest of sc's remarks were in the vein of understanding, and relating to, some of the difficulties, just not understanding the one particular need of sharing in a Gay Pride type way. Just want to interject that I do understand>wish I had underlined that. He apologised to all concerned. He sent an apology to Wendy.

For God's sake, he is a man and working on a learning curve. :twisted: Also, he is somewhat "older" and when drool is not coming down his lip, he has been known to rattle on.

Seriously, I think sc usually tries to be a good force around here when he isn't in the middle of his own personal crisis. Can't we just call and end to this continuation of rehashing a grievous error in political incorrectness and inappropiate comments?

In conclusion, I understand why umbrage was taken. I do think appropriate steps were taken to rectify the misunderstanding and offending remarks.

(damn, had to edit twice. really trying not to rattle anyone here and speak out a bit on sc's behalf.)

There's my thoughts.
terri


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Oh my God, this is like jumping into a big pile of poo. Here goes my very humble opinion. This is what I thought when I read sc's first statement...

Does anyone watch Will and Grace? If one of the zaney characters would have made the now infamous, in poor taste, offending, remark...the audiance would have laughed. It would be called comedy relief. I know when singled out it is highly offensive. The rest of sc's remarks were in the vein of understanding, and relating to, some of the difficulties, just not understanding the one particular need of sharing in a Gay Pride type way. Just want to interject that I do understand>wish I had underlined that. He apologised to all concerned. He sent an apology to Wendy.

For God's sake, he is a man and working on a learning curve. :twisted: Also, he is somewhat "older" and when drool is not coming down his lip, he has been known to rattle on.

Seriously, I think sc usually tries to be a good force around here when he isn't in the middle of his own personal crisis. Can't we just call and end to this continuation of rehashing a grievous error in political incorrectness and inappropiate comments?

In conclusion, I understand why umbrage was taken. I do think appropriate steps were taken to rectify the misunderstanding and offending remarks.

(damn, had to edit twice. really trying not to rattle anyone here and speak out a bit on sc's behalf.)

There's my thoughts.
terri


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2004)

--


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2004)

--


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2004)

I'd like to thank bro for his information about his bag.Do you wear it,over one shoulder across your body :?:

Personally I think the discussion got a bit dull.

Time to lighten up..............get down and be shallow


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2004)

I'd like to thank bro for his information about his bag.Do you wear it,over one shoulder across your body :?:

Personally I think the discussion got a bit dull.

Time to lighten up..............get down and be shallow


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## Amelia (Aug 10, 2004)

Loves what makes the world go round


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## Amelia (Aug 10, 2004)

Loves what makes the world go round


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2004)

umm i don't wear a bag


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2004)

umm i don't wear a bag


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## grant_r (Aug 25, 2004)

I believe jc said he had a bag.


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## grant_r (Aug 25, 2004)

I believe jc said he had a bag.


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

excuse me? did someone say old bag??? 

yeah, it was JC who talked about his cool bag.

whenever I see the cool guys with their bags slung over their shoulder i like the look. Shelly, this metro guy thing, i am not fortunate enough to deal with it on a real life level. i do know that when i look at an Esquire magazine I appreciate the fact that the male models are probably using more facial products then i do. they look tough and that's okay with me no matter how they came about it.

it is interesting to wonder if a woman can understand and relate to a man who enjoys and uses his beauty. can it in fact make her jealous? i had a friend that was beautiful and married a pretty man. i always found her to be slightly jealous of the time he spent on himself.

my take:
if you want to look forever young...more power to you.
if you want to look your age...more power to you.
nothing wrong with a good, pulled together look. i personally am usually not capable of doing it but like it when i see it.

if you greet me with an outstetched hand and an open heart, you'll have all the power you ever need for me.

think i'll end this on that happy little thought. there's enough crap thoughts that pass thru my mind over the course of the 18 or 19 hours i'm awake.

metro males, huh? so what about metro females? are they like Sex in the City?


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

excuse me? did someone say old bag??? 

yeah, it was JC who talked about his cool bag.

whenever I see the cool guys with their bags slung over their shoulder i like the look. Shelly, this metro guy thing, i am not fortunate enough to deal with it on a real life level. i do know that when i look at an Esquire magazine I appreciate the fact that the male models are probably using more facial products then i do. they look tough and that's okay with me no matter how they came about it.

it is interesting to wonder if a woman can understand and relate to a man who enjoys and uses his beauty. can it in fact make her jealous? i had a friend that was beautiful and married a pretty man. i always found her to be slightly jealous of the time he spent on himself.

my take:
if you want to look forever young...more power to you.
if you want to look your age...more power to you.
nothing wrong with a good, pulled together look. i personally am usually not capable of doing it but like it when i see it.

if you greet me with an outstetched hand and an open heart, you'll have all the power you ever need for me.

think i'll end this on that happy little thought. there's enough crap thoughts that pass thru my mind over the course of the 18 or 19 hours i'm awake.

metro males, huh? so what about metro females? are they like Sex in the City?


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2004)

ok then JC it is,well I think you are smart for carrying a bag, I like the look too.
How about a photo?

Terri,we women have always been metro,its the guys turn.
By the way...I love "Sex", some great one liners in that show.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2004)

ok then JC it is,well I think you are smart for carrying a bag, I like the look too.
How about a photo?

Terri,we women have always been metro,its the guys turn.
By the way...I love "Sex", some great one liners in that show.


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## GavinD (Aug 10, 2004)

well I'm probably the most un-metro person in the world. I dont have a bag...i dont even use a wallet. I just have big aladdin's cave pockets with all my bits and peices in. Its always a pleasure when I'm digging around for my bus fare and I come across an old packet of skittles that I'd forgotten about. And when it comes to grooming, well to me clothes are just what keeps the cold out and that's it. I brush my hair occasionally if i remember.

g


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## GavinD (Aug 10, 2004)

well I'm probably the most un-metro person in the world. I dont have a bag...i dont even use a wallet. I just have big aladdin's cave pockets with all my bits and peices in. Its always a pleasure when I'm digging around for my bus fare and I come across an old packet of skittles that I'd forgotten about. And when it comes to grooming, well to me clothes are just what keeps the cold out and that's it. I brush my hair occasionally if i remember.

g


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Hey Gavin,

I like the look you're describing too. But I tell you, if you have a bag, a couple even, when you go to change to another one it is just like the skittle thing. You find all sorts of things you left from the previous useage. I especially like when you find $$$$. Yeah, that would be my favorite part. 

terri


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Hey Gavin,

I like the look you're describing too. But I tell you, if you have a bag, a couple even, when you go to change to another one it is just like the skittle thing. You find all sorts of things you left from the previous useage. I especially like when you find $$$$. Yeah, that would be my favorite part. 

terri


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## jc (Aug 10, 2004)

i dont do photos anymore,no-one else bothers so ner !


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## jc (Aug 10, 2004)

i dont do photos anymore,no-one else bothers so ner !


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

I don't know does sc read this thread anymore, but I also want to say I'm sorry if my opinions have hurt anybody, sc or others. Sc, indeed I think we really are in the same side regarding this thread, as I am not particularly interested in people's sexual orientations either. The only thing I felt hurt was your sentence about exposing one's sexual behaviour to others, which grant_r quoted later, with guessing it was the reason behind all this mess here in this thread, being right I think. I felt offended bc of that comment, but I am also aware that my thoughtless opinion due to that comment may have very well hurt others too, especially sc. Indeed I guess I may have overreacted and been rude because of it. So I wanna take my words back in the previous post of mine in this thread, indeed as sc really has said he is sorry already. I appreciate it and believe that you (sc) didn't mean to say anything that might have offended anyone (e.g. me)... I as a Finn speaking a foreign language here in this forum, I should know words and communication are difficult. So I wanna add my apologies to sc here in this thread now, I hope we all can be friends....? At least I hope so.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

I don't know does sc read this thread anymore, but I also want to say I'm sorry if my opinions have hurt anybody, sc or others. Sc, indeed I think we really are in the same side regarding this thread, as I am not particularly interested in people's sexual orientations either. The only thing I felt hurt was your sentence about exposing one's sexual behaviour to others, which grant_r quoted later, with guessing it was the reason behind all this mess here in this thread, being right I think. I felt offended bc of that comment, but I am also aware that my thoughtless opinion due to that comment may have very well hurt others too, especially sc. Indeed I guess I may have overreacted and been rude because of it. So I wanna take my words back in the previous post of mine in this thread, indeed as sc really has said he is sorry already. I appreciate it and believe that you (sc) didn't mean to say anything that might have offended anyone (e.g. me)... I as a Finn speaking a foreign language here in this forum, I should know words and communication are difficult. So I wanna add my apologies to sc here in this thread now, I hope we all can be friends....? At least I hope so.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

terri* said:


> Hey Gavin,
> 
> I like the look you're describing too. But I tell you, if you have a bag, a couple even, when you go to change to another one it is just like the skittle thing. You find all sorts of things you left from the previous useage. I especially like when you find $$$$. Yeah, that would be my favorite part.
> 
> terri


Ah, terri*!!! Isn't that a joy! I just changed from a "summer purse" to a "winter" and I found a ten dollar bill and a bunch o' change, LOL. And a number of crucial items. I'm ready for winter!
 
Bested,
D :shock:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

terri* said:


> Hey Gavin,
> 
> I like the look you're describing too. But I tell you, if you have a bag, a couple even, when you go to change to another one it is just like the skittle thing. You find all sorts of things you left from the previous useage. I especially like when you find $$$$. Yeah, that would be my favorite part.
> 
> terri


Ah, terri*!!! Isn't that a joy! I just changed from a "summer purse" to a "winter" and I found a ten dollar bill and a bunch o' change, LOL. And a number of crucial items. I'm ready for winter!
 
Bested,
D :shock:


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2004)

JC I don't do photos either
1. I don't know how and 2. I don't won't to scare away newbies

My tip for the day re bags.............never change bags as your heading out the door to catch a plane.I left half my life behind on my last little trip away.
Yes,my life is kept in my bag.


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2004)

JC I don't do photos either
1. I don't know how and 2. I don't won't to scare away newbies

My tip for the day re bags.............never change bags as your heading out the door to catch a plane.I left half my life behind on my last little trip away.
Yes,my life is kept in my bag.


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2004)

^ shelly i thought you were a MILF?


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2004)

^ shelly i thought you were a MILF?


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2004)

Gavin I kinda figured you are not a metro.
You say you brush your hair.........could be border line metro though

God aren't pockets great.See this is why women need bags,not enough deep pockets or any pockets.


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2004)

Gavin I kinda figured you are not a metro.
You say you brush your hair.........could be border line metro though

God aren't pockets great.See this is why women need bags,not enough deep pockets or any pockets.


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