# Narcissism and other personality traits turn into DP?



## Guest (Feb 18, 2005)

How many of you think your personality was a big factor in DP. I mean, rather than chemical imbalances causing it (although they are definitely a factor), your way of thinking and looking at the world was just not right?

I mean, I was quite a narcissist. I was constantly trying to make myself special, unique, better than other people. Always finding justifications for my own superiority and looking upon other people with disdain. It was full on. Then someone I cared about stopped speaking to me because I was an asshole... and I saw that I was! My narcissistic thinking came crashing down and I was lost, unable to make decisions, or know who i was, or who I should be. This combined with mounting stress ended with me Dp'd.

Can any of you identify personality traits that led to DP?


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

I never really thought of myself as a narcissist, but, deep down, I guess I probably am.

I used to assume that I "had" to be someone great, to end up famous, to do something special, anything other than "normal". I thought I had to have the "perfect life". I'm still not old enough to know for sure where I will end up, but, as soon as things started to go a little wrong (probably 3 years ago), I decided that if I couldn't "have it all" I was going to have nothing. It could never be somewhere "inbetween".

So yeah, I guess maybe personality traits are important in determing whether you'll get DP or not. From what I've heard, I gather it's the case that, if you're not psychotic, your personality is what will determine what kind of neurotic illness you have when a certain pressure or time arises. Angry people apparently get depression, for example.

As for this...



> rather than chemical imbalances causing it (although they are definitely a factor)


I've always assumed that chemical imbalances were caused by psychological or thinking problems, not the other way round. Although I guess I could be wrong in this respect.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

I hardly have a clue, but since many votes in the poll of Myers-Briggs personality test (in the poll section) have indicated that most of us may * be introverts, this might have something to do with DP? As introverts tend to turn more inwards than outwards, there may be a connection with depersonalization disorder. I don't mean that there should be anything wrong at being an introvert, but because of e.g. traumatic circumstances an introvert may be more likely to develop DP than an extrovert.

Oh, and all of you extroverts - the minority of the poll - please don't slaughter me now...  
* Anyway, even the sample was quite poor in my example; only 18/556, so this may be utter nonsense.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2005)

This is a VERY complicated area - and nearly impossible to explain a few posts. The gist of this discussion is that we keep wondering how on earth something like DP states could be "caused" by somebody's personality?! (especially when we're all thinking of some really wacked out personalities - likely family members, lol - and THEY don't have these horrible symptoms!)

It is not that any particular personality CAUSES dp. And most of us here are highly likeable, cool personalities - it's not that we're so dysfunctional that people run from us, lol. However, what we might be is HIGHLY CONTROLLED. It's the RIGIDITY of a personality or identity cluster that is the potential contributor for some later breakdown.

One of the key aspects of dissociation is "splitting" - keeping things separate. Partitioning off certain parts of oneself. Some people can do things with one group of friends that might shock other people who think they know that person well. Some of us are good at doing something and sort of thinking "oh, well...this isn't really me, but I can do this..." We split off components of our Self - like a kid playing a game and saying "okay, time out...this doesn't count.." Nothing inherently wrong with this little skill - but it does have a pricetag. And people with narcissistic disturbances tend to be masters at this game.

When we're very good (and rather desperate about) at doing that - separating off parts of ourselves - we are telling 2 things about ourselves: 1) we're good at it because we've perfected the dissociative skill set and probably did so most of our lives without knowing it; and 2) we grew up missing something. Most people as they mature manage to INTEGRATE the different aspects of self into a more cohesive whole. This makes a more stable personality (ego)....makes them less likely to break down. We KEPT the split sense of me/not me as we matured. We, without realizing it, are still juggling PARTS of self, and evaluating/monitoring the self chronically - in short, we're living adult life more the way a young teenager lives life. We lack "groundedness" - we never really feel at home in our own skin, and are always trying on different roles or aspects of ourselves like we were shopping for clothes.

Again, nothing "wrong" with that - but it's a sign that something is VERY rigidly held together, and chances are this person really has major anxiety when dealing with ANYbody - they're never "off guard" and never can just "be"

It's little wonder we later have a breakdown.

Then we get symptoms like anxiety and dp and obsessive thoughts. All we want is to FIX those awful feelings and make them go away and return to our happy little dysfunctional way of being.

Won't work.

Once the dam breaks, we need to really take a look at how we were put together in the first place and work with someone (therapist, ideally, well, for me anyway) to let all the different aspects of self "make friends' with each other...to stop compartmentalizing so much. To stop living so defended. To stop living so Black and White (extremes). To stop fearing other people and needing to control them out of that fear. To learn to "BE" when with other people. That all takes time. And it takes patience. And it takes, fundamentally, a therapist you can really have a RELATIONSHIP with - someone you can learn to be yourself with - that sounds so simple, and for folks like us it is incredibly hard.

And...I know you guys read this and say WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT I FEEL LIKE I'M LOSING MY MIND AND THE WORLD LOOKS LIKE A DAMN DREAM EVERY DAY?!?!?!

It has everything in the world to do with it. But I understand that it makes little sense. It made no sense to me either, lol...for many many years.

Peace,
Janine


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2005)

> We split off components of our Self


So what are these components, Janine?
I know Im splitting myself off, and I remember we talked about this before.
Ive been given the example by one of the therapists that with MPD those different parts are more widely removed from eachother than is the case with me, but still I seem to be fragmented according to them.
Im wondering into what parts I have 'divided' myself (looking into that).

Im amazed though that lately Ive been not able to remember things that have been said to me, even a few minutes after they have been said to me. I get to hear things Ive supposedly said and cant for the life of me remember I did.
(Last alinea a bit off topic).

Or is this not the compartmentalizing you are talking about?
And does this go for many people with DP here? This kind of defragmentation?

Basically, how the hell does this work? 

Thanks


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

> One of the key aspects of dissociation is "splitting" - keeping things separate. Partitioning off certain parts of oneself. Some people can do things with one group of friends that might shock other people who think they know that person well. Some of us are good at doing something and sort of thinking "oh, well...this isn't really me, but I can do this..." We split off components of our Self - like a kid playing a game and saying "okay, time out...this doesn't count.." Nothing inherently wrong with this little skill - but it does have a pricetag. And people with narcissistic disturbances tend to be masters at this game.


Yes, this certainly makes a lot of sense to me.



> Once the dam breaks, we need to really take a look at how we were put together in the first place and work with someone (therapist, ideally, well, for me anyway) to let all the different aspects of self "make friends' with each other...to stop compartmentalizing so much. To stop living so defended. To stop living so Black and White (extremes). To stop fearing other people and needing to control them out of that fear. To learn to "BE" when with other people. That all takes time. And it takes patience. And it takes, fundamentally, a therapist you can really have a RELATIONSHIP with - someone you can learn to be yourself with - that sounds so simple, and for folks like us it is incredibly hard.


One question here though....

You say that, ideally, we _need_ some kind of therapist to help us "fix" our self into some cohesive whole.

Presumably, most people start out without a cohesive ego, and build it up over time, through learning, experience and so on.....

Is it possible that we don't actually _need _ a therapist, but rather need simply to "get on with life" until we sort out our concept of self? In the same way that one's built up in the first place. Or do we genuinely need help in the matter.

The only issue here, which is probably true for many here, is that is that finding a good therapist, trained in psychoanalysis is not only hard in itself, but probably pretty costly. Certainly I doubt I'd be able to find any such person for a long time yet.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2005)

Dear Wendy, I understand you completely, but unfortunately don't have an answer to "how does this all work?" lol..although, again, it's a good question.

It all sounds so much more mysterious than it really is....we get all creepy crawly about the idea of "different parts of ourselves" lol...I did, too...it sounded way too much like MPD to suit me. But one way to think of it is this: imagine a situation where EVERYONE you know all got together for one big surprise party (scary thought, isn't it? lol). Now imagine how strange you'd feel with Person X and Person W standing together in a conversation with you....which person knows you better? Which one has a more "disguised" view of you and therefore might be a bit shocked to see how you act around Persons A and B. The fact that you couldn't just waltz into the party and "BE YOURSELF" without surprising many people who are not used to seeing you in certain ways...that's the kind of "splitting off" I'm talking about.

Again, NOTHING wrong with being different with different people. Everyone does it. But most people wouldn't feel the sense of pure mortification we would feel when we opened the door to that party, lol...

Also, along the same lines as the party guests - think of how certain fantasies or ideas of daydreams or memories just don't FIT with other ones, i.e., how it seems almost "SHOCKING" when a thought from one area "sneaks in" the mind where it doesn't "belong" - we have an embarrassment reaction...even if no one else is around. WE are not amused, lol...we want to keep THIS area over here and this area over there.

That's splitting. And again, everyone does it to some degree. What makes it pathological, or potentially a source of symptoms, is how IMPORTANT it is to us to keep areas quarantined off. The more it matters, the more we're defending and the more likely we are to cause/recreate symptoms, until the self can integrate a bit better, and not need to run its own Self-experience like a front line army!

Love,
Janine
p.s. was this one of my "what the heck is Janine SAYING?" posts? lol..that just cracked me up and it still makes me giggle


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

What the heck are you going on about lady?

:lol:


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2005)

LOL...I shall let that go MERELY because Leo loves you.

:twisted: :lol:


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

see him with two eyes in my avatar?


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2005)

Oh my GOD..that didn't connect to me!

YOU RUINED him, lol.....airbrushing the most gorgeous of male models merely to make him look "like everyone else!"

LOLOL,
J


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

and now with one! (and a can of stella)


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

no airbrushing! it was pre-accident!


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2005)

OH!! TOO cool. I heartily approve then.

It's like from his OTHER "era" - the artist formerly known as TWO-Eyed Jack.

He's a handsome one either way


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2005)

Dear Janine,



> p.s. was this one of my "what the heck is Janine SAYING?" posts? lol..that just cracked me up and it still makes me giggle


No...LOL, not THIS time... , but at other times, yes! :lol:

Problem I have is that I cannot (or dont want to or too afraid to?) connect ANYthing to myself.
Even if its me, its not me, or maybe it is, but then again, I am so estranged from myself I dont know who I am anymore.
In other words, Im in COMPLETE denial of self.



> What makes it pathological, or potentially a source of symptoms, is how IMPORTANT it is to us to keep areas quarantined off. The more it matters, the more we're defending and the more likely we are to cause/recreate symptoms, until the self can integrate a bit better, and not need to run its own Self-experience like a front line army!


Ok I get this. The thing we/I need to do is making paths between those areas (me and those areas). Im doing that/working on that, eventhough I feel I walk in nomansland and dont know what the hell is going on and what am I doing and where am I?

Im not making much sense today.
But granted writing about it, talking about it like this, does help me to connect with myself and be amazed that this is REALLY me.LOL
Jezus how lost can you be?

Thanks,
Love
Wendy


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Oh well, one can be very lost. But, if one is on a path...then it will certainly lead them somewhere. It is in the getting on the path that you will find the things you need to learn about yourself to find yourself again. You are on the path, Wendy, and I have every confidence this is going to work for you.

Follow the yellow brick road...

Hey !!! Get those damn monkeys outta here! And that witch, too!

For God's sake, let a monkey loose and everything goes to hell. 

Most sincerely ( except for the monkey stuff ),
terri


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

Yes, sorry I kind of took this thread off topic slightly...however I can relate to most of it especially the narcissistic stuff. Because, I am great.

KIDDING :lol:

Wendy, I know exactly that feeling of just being lost. Most people, if going through a bad patch in life always have themselves to rely on. But, if you don't even know yourself, if you cant trust yourself to always 'be there' it feels like there is no-one at all to turn to. You are not even safe in your own head. It is very a very lonely thought.

I believe everyone here has some sense of fragility with regards to their sense of self. Whether it be fragmented or underdeveloped coping mechanisms etc, we are all 'faulty' to some extent, but us here on the board are more so than most!

I also believe the search to 'find' ourselves or protect our fragile selves, is what causes our neurotic symptoms. Janine explains obviously explains it better.

Sometimes, you can feel so lost that to be given an identity such as a 'narcissist' can have its appeal - something you can BE, something out of the ordinary. I'm not for one minute undermining the pain and confusion of personality disorders or traits but to someone who feels like a no-one, being a 'victim' is sometimes better than nothing at all. Which is why it can be scarey to venture out from behind that in order to discover who we 'really are' or in other words, just be ourselves, because for some reason, we have convinced ourselves that that is just not good enough.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2005)

Wendy,

I really know what you mean re: feeling like there is NO you at all...that's how I felt, as well (that there was no ME, not that there was no Wendy, lol)

The way I write about it now (in posts above) is from THIS vantage point. But for the decade of my 20's, honest to God, I felt like a NON-living being. I was a body and cognition, but no sense of self at all. When I'd try to "grab hold" of that mystical "something" it glimmered like mercury and vanished - always felt like one SECOND before I could "grab" it. So bizarre. Even now, I can think back and sometimes TRY to figure out what WAS it that I have now that I did not have then....and even now, it's mercurial. I know the terror of feeling that "I" was not there. But I wouldn't be able to explain to that me of those days what it feels like now. So so bizarre.

Point is: very often with dp and dissociative states, the person believes there is NO core Self. I know what you're saying. The only thing I can promise you is that there IS a core you...and that you will know that - just not today.

Also, it can feel like the only ME that exists is the Me who tries to assemble a sense of self. I know this is getting kind of mind-bendy, lol...but there is something useful in this, I think. We sometimes can ONLY relate to having a Self by identifying with the part of us who is TRYING to find a sense of self.

Freaking myself out now, lol....bye

Love,
Janine
who was "here" all along...and from this point, I can see that. It was only at the TIME that I felt no sense of identity connection.


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

the death of 'self' has to be the most awful feeling in the world. When you have 'self' it feels as though yes, there are awful things that happen in the world eg death of a loved one, but you will survive. Ultimately, it is a self preservation thing, it is a fear of death and no longer 'being'. 
Yep, mind is a-bending :?


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

the death of 'self' has to be the most awful feeling in the world. When you have 'self' it feels as though yes, there are awful things that happen in the world eg death of a loved one, but you will survive. Ultimately, it is a self preservation thing, it is a fear of death and no longer 'being'. 
Yep, mind is a-bending :? 
ps on the subject of narcissism - 'Narcissism - Denial of the true self' by Alexander Lowen


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

how on earth did that double / but different post happen? Am I magic?


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## jft (Jan 10, 2005)

I was taught well as a younster to be other directed, to always look to be liked, to always be accepted, to never offend, to give up your rights and likes in order to make others feel better, in short to deny yourself. Inside I thought this was how life was supposed to be lived, not realizing what it was doing to my soul/self. I could be anything to anybody, and I was. All my life I played the game and rode the fences ready to jump off on the side that needed me.

Of course I wound up with a fragile self. As years got on I kept bumping into problems, for I could not be all things to all people. I started to feel fake. But people liked me. Did not matter if I liked me, cause I did not count. But a real sense of \ incongruency crept in, anomic feelings.

Sad part is that I got into drugs to be liked (peer pressure) and that may have kicked in my dp/dr. But the more I read this baord the more I realize the predisposition I had to get me there even without drugs. I can see where a compartmentalized and fragile self, one that may introvert as well, may have the ingredients.

I find it interesting that you all speak of narcissism, which I thought was a conceited love of self. I approved of myself only as others approved me. But deep down (At an intuititive, preverbal level) I hated myself and lived with this "tension" between the two.

When I started to snap ot of this is when the reality of life stepped in, when I realized my bad behaviours with one group did not jive with other groups, when real rejections happened, when women who I flirted with in order to be accepted called my bluff, when I found out I could not be a liberal and conservative at the same time, or a ******* and a sensitive tree hugger simultaneously, or a bigot and watch "To Kill a Mockingbird" and cry, and so on. But I was left with "what do I have left and who really am I"? It has taken a while, but I put it together for the most part. And interesting enough, I think where I landed is where I started, at my true essense before it was brainwashed. And I like what I have found.

I have no idea if what I speak of has any thing to do with what you all are speaking of, but it feels good to air this. I have self theorized about this for years and how it relates to my dp/dr.
jft


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2005)

> I approved of myself only as others approved me. But deep down (At an intuititive, preverbal level) I hated myself and lived with this "tension" between the two.


Yep, totally familiar with that one. Approve of the self only insofar as one can feel SEEN/loved/validated. And it seems to passive and submissive, but....in reality, it's also feeding a private power game - we feel like we're MAKING the other person like us, fooling them somehow, duping them into believing we really are the way we need to pretend to be in order to win their love. Very covert aggression there, and on some level we know it...adding to even more guilt, shame.

It's always a question of that dichotomy - between a Grand self-image (I am powerful enough to make others' like me) and a sense of nothingness at our core (if they only knew the truth).

Enter dp.
Self had nowhere else to turn.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2005)

> It's always a question of that dichotomy - between a Grand self-image (I am powerful enough to make others' like me) and a sense of nothingness at our core (if they only knew the truth).


So there is never a way that you can be TRULY loved. You can NEVER win (I mean with you not you specifically Janine, just people who do this).
Why are we doing that? 
What are we so afraid of?
Whats the pay off of this 'game' and whats the price we pay.
HIGH price to pay! (DP).

Are we all here capable of dealing with real love?


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2005)

We're now into MAJOR ADVANCED Psych, lol...but my guess, Wendy, is that part of what we get out of it all is simply that we're STUCK in a narcissistic defense - we end up having relationships with ourSELVES ("I am fooling this person or making him/her love me..." oscillating with "if he/'she really knew me for what I am, they'd hate me as much as I do..." and then "I am nothing. Literally. I do not exist")

All ways of interacting in the world of relationships but without BEING in a relationship - no real risk, no real dependency. And I think that's a huge part of it - a desperate unwillingness to DEPEND on another person as a separate person. Once I internalize who someone is to me, they sort of become "mine" - the You in my head becomes more precious to me (or more hated) than any real you in the actual world. We are having most of our interactions with our own inner objects - again, self-contained, self-sufficient, needing no one, relying on nothing in external reality - USING reality a bit just to get some nuggets for inner objects...but keeping nearly all energy invested INward, rather than outward.

And that, my dear ones, is a perfect groundwork for DP.

I lived as if I'd invented the whole world.....gettting most of my pleasure from my own thoughts.

Then one day, woke up and what if it's true? What if subjective reality is really ALL THERE IS? What if I LITERALLY invented the world???

and the rest is classic dp.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2005)

Wendy, I think we can most certainly BE loved. The tricky part is whether we can ever let ourselves FEEL that we're loved.


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

Jft, your story is basically a lot like mine.

I have/had all of these traits, pretty much...maybe I'm not going insane after all.



> I think we can most certainly BE loved. The tricky part is whether we can ever let ourselves FEEL that we're loved.


Totally true.

I always, rationally, knew that certain people liked me. But there was something underneath that meant it never felt like this was really the case. That they never liked me because the me they saw wasn't real.

This is interesting stuff...


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2005)

I see myself in so much of this...


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Hi, this is an interesting thread. I'll quote Janine a bit and after I'll express my thoughts on this subject. And I wanna express huge thanks to Janine as I feel her posts helped me to clarify my thoughts on dissociation. 



JanineBaker said:


> One of the key aspects of dissociation is "splitting" - keeping things separate. Partitioning off certain parts of oneself. Some people can do things with one group of friends that might shock other people who think they know that person well.


I agree 100 %. I would like to think that dissociation is a continuum and in another end of the continuum there are those healthy individuals, who use dissociation in a norwal, healthy way and never end up with problems. But after that DP and DR comes into the picture, and Janine explained very well how DP can happen to people, who have learned to use dissociation in an unhealthy, isolating way, when they socialize with others. And in the other end of the continuum there are the people with DID (dissociative identity disorder), who have had to create complete alter selves in order to endure severely traumatic, repeating events in their early childhood.

I remember that as a child I had a strange moment at one basic school party. I was holding my littlesister on my arms, and then some of my classmates came to me and started mocking me, like I would be the mom of my littlesister and I had been very fast producing my own children. I felt very, VERY odd - I felt like there were two separate selves in me, the school self who either wanted to say something disdainful to those classmates of mine in return or withdraw from the situation AND there was the self I was at home; the bigsister, who adored her tiny littlesister. I didn't know what to do and felt strange, and also wondered why do they want to mock me even when I'm with my family, can't they see I am a human being like my littlesister and like they are too - why the need to twist the things like that, it makes no sense.

I remember carrying the "school self" with me a very long time, it was the facade I created in order to endure the bullying at school. Even in my early twenties, when I happened to accidentally bump up with some ex-classmate of mine, I felt that the facade came through and I couldn't just be me in the presence of my ex-classmates. I felt like I still was at the basic school and had to act like I liked to talk with them and show them I've succeeded in my life, simultanously feeling fear toward them, remembering the constant teasing in my childhood and teenage times.

I guess that is what could be called the unhealthy dissociation leading to DP, if I have understood it right. One is wearing masks with different people, never being quite hirself, and it clearly cannot be a healthy situation, as it always leads to untrue relationships, to some extent.

I think DID isn't very different from that kind of dissociation after all. The basic mechanism is the same working behind those two different levels of dissociation. It is just the trick that individuals with DID have experienced such devastating, recuring events in their early childhood, that their psyches have had to use the tool of dissociation into extreme. So one creates the alter, who endures the traumatic events (e.g. parent's alcohol abuse) and another alter, who looks like a normal child in other situations. The child's psyche uses dissociation and splits hir personality in two, so the psyche can handle the pain, isolate the pain, without shattering. And after the splitting mechanism has proven to be functional, it becomes very easy to split again, and again - and one may end up having very many alters with time.

I have never experienced any recurring traumatic events before age five, which has been theorized as the critical period for an individual, who is most likely to develop DID. However, I have earlier told in this forum that I most probably have DDNOS, a condition which is not so severe than DID, but still including alters, which makes the difference from "pure" DP. I believe the reasons why I developed DDNOS lies in my childhood, as my mother became alcoholic when I was about 6 years old, and she kept drinking since I was 9.

{EDIT: Oh, I wrote bullshit in the chapter above. Thing is that I may very well have DID, bc in any stressful situations I seem to lose time and some of my selves are pretty complete personalities. And I remember one memory when I was 3 yrs old and my parents were arguing while intoxicated with alcohol. So if I wanted to get a degree of insanity, I would ask for PTSD & DID instead of only DDNOS.  But OK, I can't ask everything from Finnish mental health professionals, but you my fellow dpers may decide what I really am. Cuz it seems my deeds/posts have often quite a contradictory content. It is Linda who added this chapter afterwards and the nerd Ann*Susan who posted the rubbish before.}

All the memories I can remember before that sad period in my childhood look like a lot more luminous and happy than anything I have experienced since that (perhaps with the exception of those two DR-free moments I have had during these years inside the icy cage of DR). Also sometimes in the dance parties I have experienced a peculiar feeling that there is a part of me, a small girl which I identify as being the person I was at the age 4, who is looking at the world through my eyes timidly but still showing wonder and excitement toward everything she sees around her. Thus I have come to the conclusion that the original split of my personality must have happened at age four-five, but the split-off part of myself never stayed in my conscious personality structure but rather escaped deep inside of my psyche. I believe she is the part of me that possess the deepest trust toward people and the world in general, which I had to bury, as I learned not to trust anyone and rely only on myself, when my mother couldn't take care well of her children and even herself - and I had to take her place.

When I was fourteen, I started feeling DR. A few years ago I had a psychotic break, when I was introduced another part of myself, an alter who claimed to be 14 years old and started calling herself Linda. She was very tough and rebelling and led me into many troubles by stealing things in the shopping centre and behaving disrespectfully toward other people. When I was fourteen, there was a period when I tried to be a tough girl and started wearing very provocating clothes, painting my eyes and lips very strongly. By doing that I tried to gain respect from my classmates and tried to show them I'm not a nerd, but never gained their respect though, and was still an outcast. So I finally gave up and I believe it is linked with the onset of my DR. I believe that Linda is the part of me who I was during that tough girl time, when I was a teenager. She was the vital part of me, who I needed to not be derealized and when she went hiding inside, it was the beginning of DR. However, during my psychotic break it was the time when I needed most those tough qualities of myself, and thus Linda emerged again, in an attempt of my psyche to not become totally shattered.

When I started taking the antipsychotics my psychosis ceased, but I also lost contact with Linda and had been like that to the present. Now I have slowly tapered off Zyprexa, and have felt an increase in my ability to connect with Linda and also with the "little Ninnu". I have learned from the DID mailing list I've joined in that antipsychotics can sometimes block one's ability to connect with especially hiding alters and I believe this has been to true with my case. It has been told that the first step toward recovery in the treatment of DID is to develop co-consciousness with other alters, learn to co-operate and befriend with them, to get to know each other. In that way the integration of alters into one, more healthy individual may finally happen. I guess this is what I should do too, to connect with Linda and my little girl self, get to know their thoughts and feelings and with time, integrate into a self, who I haven't been able to become naturally because of the past events in my life. I feel this is crucial for me in the way of the recovery out of DR.

Indeed I see it is no wonder that I am experiencing this isolating icy wall in between me and the world, as there are so much of myself hiding inside, which is never in the "use". I'm functioning with half-capacity all the time, and I have been like that since my early childhood. In that way I don't see there is so much difference in between my DDNOS and someelse's DP - though the DP'ed person does not have alters, also she/he is functioning only with a part of hirself. There is so much hidden inside ourselves and the recovery is a process, in which one starts learning about one's hidden qualities, e.g. the feelings that have been buried during one's life for some reason or other.

So I guess people suffering from dissociation have a lot in common indeed. I believe like that because I see my condition of dissociation somewhere in between the two "extremes", DID and DP. I have felt myself a bit lonely before, because I haven't been able to meet other people suffering from the "same" problems like me, but after reading this thread, and especially Janine's posts about dissociation, I have started to look at the thing otherwise. Though there are differencies, as there always must be in between human beings, there are also very much in common. I can relate after all. Thus I wanna offer my thanks for showing me this, Janine - your post was a very good * indeed!

* Sorry - I'm a Finn, and that's why I'm inherently uncomfortable at using superlatives. :wink:


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2005)

Ninnu, what a wonderful post! You really helped me understand you, and I felt like everything you said made great sense.

One of the interesting things about mental illness to me is precisely this "spectrum" concept - we are all human and all have brains that function essentially the same. When something goes "awry" in the way we psychologically process, it's always possible to explore that personal experience on a spectrum - all the way from perfectly normal to psychotically pathological. And that HELPS us all to understand much more, in my opinon, rather than seeing only the LABEL that one is given by a doctor.

In my psychoanalytic training, one of the things we do is work with severely psychotic patients for a brief time (and under supervision). Although most of us will not go on to treat schizphrenics, the experience of working with the mind in its most primitive state gives INVALUABLE insights into the less distrubed human mind.

We learn by exploring the spectrum of mental experience. If someone can get inside the head of a psychotic in break, trust me...that person will have no trouble working with the neurotic fantasies and fears in an analytic session. The horrors and impulses the psychotic is dealing with are so similar to the ones we all endure. They are in hyperbole within the psychotic mind, and actually easier to understand sometimes than those of the less disturbed patient.

Point is, if we can see where DID and DP intersect, as you said so well, we can really grasp more about how the mind creates symptoms. Very interesting stuff, Ninnu. Thanks.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Thanks Janine, that was a great compliment - especially from you, who knows so much about psychology and the human mind. I feel flattered... 

Indeed these kinds of thoughts on dissociation have been on my mind only for a week or so. I guess it must have something to do with the fact, that about a week ago I was finally able to lower my dose of Zyprexa to zero. Thus I have been able to feel a connection with Linda and the little girl parts of me again, to feel they are there and real instead of my worry that I have just made up that alter thing, so I could feel myself somehow special.

This is how I often thought about the thing since the antipsychotics started working, as suddenly Linda was gone and I was left alone with myself, never feeling her presence anymore. And because I had never met anyone in real life, who either would have experienced the same or given some "validation" for my experience (mental health professionals) - I started to think maybe I just desperately have wanted to feel like a DID'ed person, in order to feel different from other people (as I used to compensate my constant feeling of unworthyness with thinking I'm better and more intelligent than others during my high school times). And I felt I had made everything up.

Only now I have finally realized I haven't made this up, but Linda and the little girl "Ninnu" really are real parts of myself, and not just figments of my imagination. And when I read your posts on the mechanism of dissociation in this thread I felt the pieces went into place (I hope this would be a decent translation of the Finnish saying). I finally understood that there is a correlation between DID and DP, and after that I felt more peaceful toward my DR/DDNOS, as I felt I have a better picture about dissociation, how does it work and why DP and DR occur.

And what is funny, yesterday I felt I was getting a migraine, and then I remembered that sometimes with people with DID the migraine * occurs when two alters are trying to get the control of the body at the same time, and there are two wills fighting against each other. I have experienced it once during the psychotic break in my past, when I tried to keep Linda beneath, but she finally won and started behaving badly (like always). When I tried to suppress Linda from not getting the control of the body, I had an awful migraine headache, but the headache vanished at the same time when Linda got the control. So yesterday I thought maybe the migraine happens for the same reason again, and I tried to feel what and whose are the thoughts and feelings I'm obviously not trying to pay attention to.

After that I felt Linda's presence very strongly and felt how she saw her surroundings, which was a totally different way than I use to see things. She wanted to look at me in the mirror and was fascinated about my long dreadlocks (my hair was quite short a few years ago when she was "out" last time, during the psychosis). It was quite an experience to see myself in the mirror and feel that a part of me likes what she sees, as I have felt myself fat and thus ugly for quite a long time (the meds have made me gain weight). During the yesterday evening I and Linda had co-consciousness after such a long break... I had never earlier been able to feel so clearly what does it feel like when there are two sets of thoughts and feelings in my head at the same time, the other feelings/thoughts coming from Linda and the other source of the feelings/thoughts being me. It feels pretty weird, but not at all unpleasant though. This strongly I have felt Linda's presence only during my psychotic break a few years ago, but because of the psychosis I couldn't feel the thing like I now have the chance.

What I also could say, when I feel Linda's presence - when she is watching the surroundings through my eyes, I feel considerably less DR'ed. The icy wall is still here, of course, but it is different - like it has become thinner and more transparent. This feels good, I guess this has been a first small step toward my recovery indeed. Thus I want to thank you for your posts again, as I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have come to think about dissociation like this if I haven't read them.

* By the way, about migraines. My mother used to have them when she felt she had to do everything perfectly at work, and when she finally learned that she need not to be perfect at all and rather is allowed to be herself, she stopped having the headaches for once and for all. So I think sometimes migraines may occur because one has a conflict of feelings and thoughts inside - I believe it is the same thing with two alters fighting about the control of the body and with conflicting feelings. It is just a question of the level of dissociation. Just a guess... :?:


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

Ninnu, I find it fascinating how you can talk about your alter Linda and your psychotic break, because, being totally honest, it is something that a lot of us here probably fear a great deal, and to hear someone who understands these concepts from first hand experience, takes away the mystery and sometimes very wrong perception we all have of such experiences.

To be able to deal with experiences the way you do, so objectively is great. What you say about feeling less detached through Linda obviously signifies quite an important aspect of your recovery?


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

g-funk said:


> To be able to deal with experiences the way you do, so objectively is great. What you say about feeling less detached through Linda obviously signifies quite an important aspect of your recovery?


Thank you for the compliments, g-funk.  About Linda, I think you are right. I believe now I have finally realized what I have to do in order to become healed, I must get to know Linda and the little girl alter very well, so I could someday reach the point, where I could integrate into the person I would have become if I needn't to live through the traumatic experiences in my past. I believe when the integration is finally "complete", I will no more suffer from DR. What I feel really weird in this, is the fact that only a couple of weeks ago I hardly had a clue what is wrong with me, e.g. why do I fear so much that if I became DR-free nobody would see me.

Now I feel that the fear must have belonged to the little girl alter, as she was never seen even by me since she went hiding inside bc of one traumatic event * in my past. How could anyone else see her, if even I didn't acknowledge her existence? During this weekend I feel not having that fear of not being seen anymore, I guess because I finally realized that those two alters in myself are real and thus they know they are taken seriously from now on. I can be the mother for little "Ninnu" now, and comfort her if needed. I need to give Linda and little "Ninnu" the lives they never had a chance to have before, and by doing that I hope with time I/we would integrate into the person that I/we couldn't grow naturally before.

When I'm typing this I feel I'm near crying bc of relief and joy, and I feel those emotions come from somebody else than me. I guess/feel it is the little girl part of me, who is the source of those feelings. I guess this may really have been the crucial step toward my recovery. And only a couple of weeks ago I hardly believed that I would someday have the chance to get the isolating icy wall of DR melt away. I could have never guessed this could have happened, this fast. I'm pretty sure the recovery process will still take lots of time and effort, but now I/we at least know what to focus on in order to get healed. This feels weird, hard to describe with words...

...yesterday evening, after I had talked about these things with my boyfriend and he understood, being more than empathetic, I cried bc of joy for some time. I could have never thought I would meet that kind of person in real life, who would accept me just how I am and understand me though there are many separate selves in me. Before, though I had discussed about DDNOS with my boyfriend, I thought he would never accept me as I am, believing I should be the "standard Ninnu" to him too, as when I had tried to explain this alter thing to other - very rare - "real life" people in my past, they had never understood/accepted it.

I feel I'm finally in the beginning of the long journey toward recovery, toward the discovery of the true myself... And it feels almost too much, I wonder what I have done to deserve all this - especially my boyfriend. *near tears*

---

* I was five years old, when our family had arrived to Finland after living one year in Norway, town Stavanger. During one of the first nights in Finland I woke up to the screaming and shouting of my parents. They were heavily drunk and fighting with each other. Soon after I had woken up, my 1-year-old littlebrother woke up too and started crying in panic. When my father noticed we are awake, he rushed beside my bed and showed me his arm full of bloody scratches, repeating me in shock: "Look at what your mother did to me!" The little girl alter of mine showed me yesterday, that this was the moment she went inside, and had been gone until now. I have carried this memory with me since it happened, but never before I had come to think why after our family had returned to Finland, I had felt everything in my life a lot more detached and grey. I guess now I finally know the reason for it...


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2005)

Remember, too, Ninnu, that a psychotic break as the result of MPD is considered a VERy different animal from a schizophrenic break.

In Schizophrenia, the brain itself malfunctions in response to extreme emotion (of ANY kind, not just trauma - could be sexual, could be all kinds of intense stimulus). The brain is attacking its own functioning as escape.

With MPD, the break is certainly a break with reality, but it is considered "in service of the Ego" i.e., it is not a mal-adaptive or DYSfunction of the brain itself, but a rather creative - although drastic! - response of a dissociation-prone mind.

MPD patients are NEVER considered "insane." They might be colorful, lol..or very very bizarre....but their actual brains do not malfunction and there is NO degenerative process at work in the slightest.

Cool?
Very impressed with your self-awareness and strides on this work.

Love,
Janine


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Hi Janine - I spent two days in trying to think what I'd say in response. I feel you are too nice to me  No, that wasn't the outcome of my long introspection! But - because I do not know anything about schizophrenic experience, I cannot comment, but believe what you say. Thanks...


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2005)

At the time I wrote my posts here, I was so out of it I couldnt really respond the way I liked to:

G-funk:



> Wendy, I know exactly that feeling of just being lost. Most people, if going through a bad patch in life always have themselves to rely on. But, if you don't even know yourself, if you cant trust yourself to always 'be there' it feels like there is no-one at all to turn to. You are not even safe in your own head. It is very a very lonely thought.


What you say here has been on my mind lately and it helped me to see the difference of me and how others cope with their stresses and trauma's (this goes for my group, Im in grouptherapy and the only one with DP).
Imagine to try and explaing this to people who dont have the DP experience. I feel so powerless in trying to show them in how much pain and despair I am at times. I know I shouldnt try (only for myself to learn to talk about it/my feelings and for them to give them understanding about certain of my actions in the group). But I sometimes wish people could be me for a day to get clear how bad I feel, what the DP is and what Im dealing with daily.
Thanks.


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

Janine-
Probably because the neurotic is able to manipulate and plan to hide things, while the psychotic is completely out of control of those impulses...that is why it's probably easier to see the whole inner-workings with an actual psychotic person and why they can go for treatment anywhere and it took you 20 years to find a therapist...

Plus neurotics are pretty much everywhere...even psychologists have issues...and if we're ALL playing the game, well that is a threat to us to dig too deep? But nm they make you guys go through analysis anyway. At least you don't have to pay for that part


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