# God lives



## yoyo

The purpose of this message is to show and explain that God lives. The purpose is not to prove it, because I do not believe that it is possible. Faith is not things which are visible with eyes, and it is not the perfect knowledge of all things. However, I am using an eternal and true principle in order to show that God lives: opposition. The hardest thing to figure out and understand is the relation beetween that principle and the fact that God lives. I now explain the principle.

Principle: There is opposition in all things.

That principle is an eternal and permanent truth. That shows that everything has its opposit. Otherwise, we would not be aware of anything in this life.

Imagine that you live in a world where there is just one possible temperature: +25 celcius. That is definitively warm. If you never have been exposed to a lower temperature, how can then you know that warm is warm? You have to experience colder temperature in order to be aware that the actual temperature +25 celcius is warm. Otherwise, you can not possibly know what warm is. "Warm" has an opposite: "cold". That is the same thing with all things. These are some more exemple of opposites: sad and happy, sugar and salt, good and evil, etc...

If everything has an opposite, then injustice (unfairness) has also and opposite, and that is justice. We just said that if there is just one possible temperature (+25c), then "cold" does not exist and it is not possible to know that warm is, in fact, warm. We all know that this life is unfair. People have different kinds of lives. Some are more sick than other, others are criminals and do not follow the law which everyone has to follow. Some people follow the law and do their best in order to be good persons. So if, as I said, we all know that this life is unfair, then there is an opposite to it: that is justice. Yes, justice exists!! The problem is that we do not se much justice in this unperfect world. Men are able to judge perfectly. There is then no perfect justice in this world. Imperfect justice can not be justice, it remains injustice. But someone has to be able to judge perfect, otherwise injustice does not exist either. If one opposite is missing, then we are not aware of the other opposite. But everybody is aware that this world is unfair. The consequence is that someone has to judge perfectly. Who is that person? Yes, it is God.


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## Monkeydust

This is a little confused.

"Hot" and "cold" are not everlasting, eternal and intrinsic qualities of objective reality, but rather conditions humans denote according to collective experience. 100 degrees is no more _necessarily _ hot than 0 degrees, it's simply conventional to call it so because it "matches" what we experience.

The same might be said of justice - probably even more so, in fact - because not only is it a largely human construct but it is one which, in contrast to "hot" and "cold", has changed considerably over time. What was just to the Greeks is very often not just today, and vice versa.

Thus you argument seeks to impose some absolute definition of justice which A) is a human construct irrelevant to intrinsic objective reality and more importantly B) presupposes some absolute and unchanging notion of what "justice" and "injustice" are - which, of course, you derive from your God and your religion that follows.

Not to mention the fact that it just doesn't make sense. Why does it follow that because of injustice we need some just _being_, i.e. God? Couldn't it be restricted to conceptual terms of "justice" without reference to some divine authority?

I can't help but find it all a bit wishy-washy.


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## yoyo

I wrote:

"Men are able to judge perfectly." I forgot to write "not" before able. Sorry for that.


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## Monkeydust

Unfortunately, that nice one-line quip doesn't help to elaborate on the matters at hand.


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## Phill

You either have Faith or you don't. If you do, matters like these become
so much less confusing.
Read the Bible, God's word, Love Him with all your STRENGH, SOUL, HEART and MIND, and quit trying to understand Him and His principles with your MIND alone because you never will and it will never make
sense that way.
I believe this is why you are a little confused Monkeydust.

Spiritual understanding of truth comes only by divine revelation and an open heart.
We do need our minds to understand the truth, but in combination
with our HEART and SPIRIT. 
Years ago before i had faith, i sounded very much like you.

But when one acknowledges one's need for Almighty God to be part of 
his everyday life, as yoyo has, one cannot help but continually make
reference to Him.


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## Monkeydust

Nah...

I think embracing stuff with your heart and soul, and abandoning your mind, reason, rationality, and common sense in turn, is entirely the *wrong* way to go.

This isn't just true for religion, but is true for a number of movements throughout history. Take Nazism, many of those who followed it at the time later described the strong emotional element of the doctrine, the speeches and so on, and how they were emotionally drawn to embrace it while abandoning their reason. It may have "felt good" at the time, but it wasn't the right or even the rational thing to do.

The same has to go for religion. For something that shapes your entire way of life, it seems beyond my comprehension not to subject if to rational scrutiny. You need to actually THINK whether or not it makes sense, not just "feel" that it does and precede forthwith.

I suppose this goes to the heart of the issue, faith is a matter which you can only appreciate if you're willing to abandon your rationality and give in to the emotional appeal. Some folks are willing to do that. I'm not one of them.


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## Guest

I agree with monkeydust that logic and reason have their place and should be put to use in all situations. There is a saying when it comes to things like religion and that is: "do not be credulous, convince yourselves." I think convincing is the logic part of the process of deciding to have faith or not. I believe alot of people do not convince themselves at all and just follow their religion/church like a sheep follows the shepard of the flock. But there are those who do apply logic and ask for the unknown spiritual element to convince them that it exists. Nobody has ever really brought that up and sais that you should never ask for convincing but just always have faith. Well, if I can't be convinced then I mine as well call myself a sheep. With that being said, I do believe in God just because of what I see outside and I have experienced miracles that no one could comprehend unless they have walked in my shoes.


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## Martinelv

Phil said:



> You either have Faith or you don't.


No. It should be re-worded thus: ' You either need to believe in imaginary friends, or you don't.'


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## Phill

Martinelv said:


> Phil said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You either have Faith or you don't.
> 
> 
> 
> No. It should be re-worded thus: ' You either need to believe in imaginary friends, or you don't.'
Click to expand...

What's your source for such a statement?


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## Martinelv

My source ? Reality.


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## Guest

::watches tirelessly as the debate to whether God exists goes on between martinelv and others::

The one thing that will drive you even more crazy than DP is trying to convert people or make them believe what you believe.

Now I must get changed into my nice suit so I can go door to door and preach like the good jehovas witness that I am.


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## Martinelv

I'm not trying to prove that god doesn't exist. It's a waste of time. I'm just waiting for just one scrap of evidence to justify all this whoo-ha. That's all. 8)

My offer of $4000 still stands.


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## Guest

You are a smart guy when it comes to debating Martin. Somebody could write a brilliant 900 page thesis trying to prove this 'mess' and you'd still find a way to rebuke every single bit of information written down. That $4000 isn't going anywhere.


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## Martinelv

Not at all. I have a thin veneer of intelligence with covers a seething mass of ignorance. But that pales into insignificance when we're talking about imaginary friends. Wouldn't you agree?


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## Phill

Martin, you WILL need Jesus one day, and one day you will also see Him, face to face. 
I just pray that you meet Him as Savior and not as judge.
Because meeting Him as judge will no doubt cause your bowel
to expand and release a crap the size of jupiter.
You'll realize how sinful, filthy and rotten you are (as we all are, unless we've been forgiven) before the face of a Holy and righteous God.

You'll also see just how much He LOVES you, the fire of His LOVE, 
and how much He wants you to be with Him.

I'm praying for you that you'll see Him as Savior on that day and
you can't stop me from doing it.


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## Martinelv

Yeah, OK Phil. If you say so.


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## Guest

> Martin, you WILL need Jesus one day, and one day you will also see Him, face to face.
> I just pray that you meet Him as Savior and not as judge.
> Because meeting Him as judge will no doubt cause your bowel
> to expand and release a crap the size of jupiter.
> You'll realize how sinful, filthy and rotten you are (as we all are, unless we've been forgiven) before the face of a Holy and righteous God.


The exact reason I stopped going to church and following christianity.


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## Scattered

The fire of his love will cleanse you for all eternity. When your skin melts from your bones, and the scent of burning flesh fills the air you'll realize how much he cares.


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## Guest

Geez, I believe in a God, but I don't believe his intention is to fry your skin and let your bones burn in eternal hellfire and brimstone. If I want somebody like that, I can find them right here on planet earth in large quantities.


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## Martinelv

Incidently Phil, that bit about crapping Jupiter out of my arse. Was that meant to be funny, or was it a seepage of the seething vitriol that lurks beneath the conscious of most religious fundamentalists? I just want to make sure, because if your god does exist, he'll have a merry old time deciding _which_ arsehole of mine to crap Jupiter out of.

I would have thought, with your god's delicious sense of spite, he would have chosen Uranus. :wink:



I am on the threshold of moderating myself. Bad Martin.


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## Phill

Martinelv said:


> Incidently Phil, that bit about crapping Jupiter out of my arse. Was that meant to be funny, or was it a seepage of the seething vitriol that lurks beneath the conscious of most religious fundamentalists?


To be honest it does sound a little humorous. But no, it wasn't meant to be funny. A friend of mine constantly keeps coming up with illustrations
like these. I borrowed it from him without his permission, I hope he
doesn't mind.


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## Martinelv

> A friend of mine constantly keeps coming up with illustrations


I'd keep a very close eye on this friend Phil. Never turn your back on him, if you get my drift.


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## yoyo

Phill, I can tell you have the spirit with you, the spirit of God. Thank you for your faith.


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## falling_free

God is a shapeshirting lizard from another dimension

OMG DAVID ICKE!



















your praying to a LIZARD!


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## widescreened

HaHa!I remember him!he used to do the snooker commentery before 'mooving on' to other things.Seriously Phil,as well meaning as you may be,dont you see what a whacko belief system you adhere to:love each other,love and worship me or I'll send another tsunami.Did it before in the old testament.I guess we should start building arcs.


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## falling_free




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## Phill

widescreened said:


> HaHa!I remember him!he used to do the snooker commentery before 'mooving on' to other things.Seriously Phil,as well meaning as you may be,dont you see what a whacko belief system you adhere to.


The Good News of Jesus Christ still sounds foolish and whacko to many.
I'm very aware of this.
The message of Christ's death for sins has always sounded ridiculous
to those who don't believe.


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## Guest

God doesnt live, but he exists, to live is be "life" which is created by a god, so god is just a force with no life but infinate power that expands though all dimensions. But god abandoned our world long ago.


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## Martinelv

> The message of Christ's death for sins has always sounded ridiculous to those who don't believe.


The obvious implication here is that those who believe in the 'message of Christs death ( err, he suffered more than anyone ever ever ever to attone for our sins...yawn) is obviously a ridiculous person, in this regard.


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## Brainsilence02

This world is injust. This is because there is the "law of the mighter".

I have found three definitions for justice:
1. "we are all equal"
2. "I am more 'equal' than you"
3. "it's injust because it makes me feel bad"

Most people experience the second, so it's expected to feel very misjudged.

Some people experience the first, so they know it when someone misjudges them.

And many people experience the third, which means they feel misjudged every time they feel bad.

Just for the record, I support the first definition.

Additionally, Yoyo, I think you see only black and white.

There is another Topic where we discussed about the existance of god. The thing ended up with the religious persons feeling insulted. We stoped. There was (at that Topic) no proof that god exists, and there was plenty that it/he/she doesn't.

I would love to participate in such a topic, but I have found out (quite late I owe to admit) that this is not the right place. If someone can dispose DP/DR with religion, then it's fine. I am considering myself (if yes, then I will go to budism or create my own religion).

I haven't found a proof of god but, there are reasons to believe in it's existance, and the most sound one is "hide from the burden of personal responsibility" (LOL!  that cartoon was marvelous falling_free). This is not insulting of course, we are only humans 

You are saying that one shouldn't seek any proof? Well, let me put that way, if I tell you that I am police-officer and I ask you to get out of your car, will you believe me without showing you some ID? 

Just a few minutes ago, I posted in another Topic about Freud and religion:



Sigmund Freud said:


> Religion... comprises a system of wishful illusions together with a disavowal of reality, such as we find in an isolated form nowhere else but in amentia, in a state of blissful hallucinatory confusion.
> 
> Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis.


(I got the quotes from WikiQuote: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud)


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## Martinelv

> This world is injust


No it's not. It is completely 'indifferent' to us. We only think it's unjust because, shock horror, bad things happen to us. Just like everything else that lives on our planet. I wonder if they, in whatever language Whales, Antelopes, Trees and Insects speak, think the same?


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## Scattered

Thats true. The world is completely indifferent to us. Its indifferent to our ideas of optimism or pessism. A bus of sufficient size, will kill an optimist just as efficiently as it will a pessimist. So all our justifications for horrible things that occur in this world are illusions. They are systems that do not hold in the face of a world that simply shrugs. One might say that the opposite is true. However the world is difficult (notice I avoided the word cruel). Its difficult to the point that not all of us will make it, and the rest will have to find a way to justify the seemingly pointless death of another. And that is what it is, pointless, because there is no point in an indifferent world.

Maybe we should simply be happy for no reason. Happy because its good to be happy and bad things don't matter if they aren't currently happening. However, also remember that you aren't immune to the horrible things you see happening to others while denying the possibility of experiencing the same.


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## Brainsilence02

Martinelv said:


> I wonder if they, in whatever language Whales, Antelopes, Trees and Insects speak, think the same?
> 
> 
> Scattered said:
> 
> 
> 
> idea, but I suspect that they don't know about justice. I think that justice is everybody beeing equal. When someone gets forfeit for (some or all of) his rights, that's injustice.
> 
> When some lethal virus hits you, that's injustice too, because you lose the right to continue to live.
> 
> Taken straight from my previous post, people feel injustice for those two additional reasons:
> - "I am more 'equal' than you"
> - "it's injust because it makes me feel bad"
> 
> Injustice becomes a feeling, while it is a status.
> 
> This world is injust because the equality is almost absent.
> 
> 
> 
> Scattered said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its difficult to the point that not all of us will make it, and the rest will have to find a way to justify the seemingly pointless death of another.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

You mention death, it doesn't have to be so rought, but that's a good example. I included this in "it's injust because it makes me feel bad".

If this post still don't convince you, then there is something that I didn't understood, so please make another explenation.


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