# CONGRATULATIONS!!! You all are champions of your disorder!



## David Kozin

Dear Community,

As a quick introduction: My name is David Kozin, and I am co-founder and CEO of the currently "restructuring" National Organization for Drug-Induced Disorders and also an employee of the Laboratory of Integrative Psychiatry, McLean Hospital and Department of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical School. Our organization (NODID, not my current position), with the help of Daphne Simeon, M.D. who at that time was the Director of Research in Dissociative Disorders at Mount Sinai School of Medicine, WITH the acknowledged help of dpselfhelp.com and the help of one of your members, Brenna Lerch, BSc.. published two papers on DPD resulting in one of these papers making the cut to be published in the most read journal in the world, the prestigious Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, which can be accessed at the domain www.psychiatrist.com.

I am writing you now, because a publication in Reutens, S., Nielsen, O., & Sachdev, P. (2010). *Depersonalization disorder*. _Current Opinion in Psychiatry_, that came out just last month as an electronic publication ahead of print, lists the following purpose of review:

PURPOSE OF REVIEW: *There is increasing interest in depersonalization disorder, in part because of the increased community awareness of the condition via the Internet.* The disorder may be more prevalent than schizophrenia but is often misdiagnosed; hence, an update is timely. RECENT FINDINGS: Recent research has included characterization of the nosology and phenomenology of the disorder, whereas emerging evidence demonstrates a neurophysiological dampening down in addition to psychological dampening in the face of emotional stimulation. SUMMARY: Greater understanding of the clinical characteristics of this disorder will improve the reliability of diagnosis and aid the development of neurobiological and psychological models for empirical testing. Although response to current treatments has been disappointing, recent research has identified the basis for the development of new pharmacological and psychological treatments.

Additionally, the article cite *both* of our joint research papers as "Papers of particular interest, published within the period of review" and out of 65 citations these are 2 of 4 papers receiving such an honor to be marked and listed as "special interest". This article explicitly cites that web sites like this, dpselfhelp.com being the largest, *impacted the interest in DPD and DR in the clinical community*. When citing our research, the article refers to the first paper with the extra note, "This study confirms earlier research demonstrating the hetergeneity of symptoms in DPD, which can inform future nosological work." In other words, it helps other researchers develop tests for diagnosing DPD. This is true, as this paper was cited by the major work by Mula et al. Validity and reliability of the Structured Clinical Interview for Depersonization-Derealization Spectrum (SCI-DER) and also the paper has been cited 7 times, including two textbooks. The newest article is noted as "confirming an earlier study that demonstrates little difference between DPD iniated by illicit drugs and nondrug-induced DPD."

In the spirit of dissimineting knowledge for your use that is more than earned and the reason this article was able to be published (along with the two NODID publications), I am attaching a link to a copy of the article in PDF form for the EXPLICIT use of YOU for ACADEMIC and PERSONAL reasons, and not to be hosted on any web site, copied in any form except for personal use with your doctor. Additionally, I am including both of NODID's studies.

Congratulations DPSELFHELP.COM, you have made a difference. I told you it would take time, but your work and sacrifice has paid off and the movement is growing.

Sincerely,

David Kozin

NOTE: I will set up a link to the articles for you momentarily, but we are setting this up on our server. Interested individuals can e-mail [email protected] Also, this post and contents are not the opinion or representation of any work currently active at the Institution or Lab that I am a member. You can also send a friend request to me from my badge below, and I will be able to supply you with information. Additionally, nodid.org will be set up in a month to begin a new type of community sharing for individuals with drug-induced disorders.

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*Reutens, S., Nielsen, O., & Sachdev, P. (2010). Depersonalization disorder. Current Opinion in Psychiatry, doi:10.1097/YCO.0b013e3283387ab4*
PURPOSE OF REVIEW: There is increasing interest in depersonalization disorder, in part because of the increased community awareness of the condition via the Internet. The disorder may be more prevalent than schizophrenia but is often misdiagnosed; hence, an update is timely. RECENT FINDINGS: Recent research has included characterization of the nosology and phenomenology of the disorder, whereas emerging evidence demonstrates a neurophysiological dampening down in addition to psychological dampening in the face of emotional stimulation. SUMMARY: Greater understanding of the clinical characteristics of this disorder will improve the reliability of diagnosis and aid the development of neurobiological and psychological models for empirical testing. Although response to current treatments has been disappointing, recent research has identified the basis for the development of new pharmacological and psychological treatments.

*Simeon, D., Kozin, D. S., Segal, K., & Lerch, B. (2009). Is depersonalization disorder initiated by illicit drug use any different? a survey of 394 adults. The Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, doi:10.4088/JCP.08m04370*
OBJECTIVE: Previous studies have documented that in a substantial minority of individuals with depersonalization disorder, onset is first triggered by illicit drug ingestion. The goal of this study was to systematically compare a large sample of individuals with drug-initiated (D) versus non-drug-initiated (ND) chronic depersonalization. METHOD: We conducted an internet survey of 394 adults endorsing DSM-IV-TR depersonalization and/or derealization symptoms. Sixty-four questions were utilized to inquire about demographic and clinical characteristics, illness course, substance use history, and treatment response. The Cambridge Depersonalization Scale (CDS) was administered. The study was conducted from September 2005 to January 2006. RESULTS: Compared to the ND group (n = 198), the D group (n = 196) included more male and younger individuals. The 2 most common precipitating drugs were cannabis and hallucinogens, followed by ecstasy. The majority of participants had modest use histories prior to onset and never ingested subsequently. The 2 groups endorsed similar illness course, impairment, suicidality, and limited treatment response. The D group showed significantly greater improvement over time than the ND group (P = .002), although the groups did not differ in reported psychotherapy or pharmacotherapy effectiveness. The groups did not differ in CDS total score or on the 4 subscale scores of unreality of self, perceptual alterations, unreality of surroundings, and temporal disintegration. On the numbing subscale of the CDS, the ND group scored higher (P = .009) only prior to controlling for age and gender. CONCLUSION: The study strongly supports a uniform syndrome for chronic depersonalization/derealization regardless of precipitant.

*Simeon, D., Kozin, D. S., Segal, K., Lerch, B., Dujour, R., & Giesbrecht, T. (2008). De-constructing depersonalization: further evidence for symptom clusters. Psychiatry Research, 157(1-3), 303-306. doi:10.1016/j.psychres.2007.07.007*
Depersonalization disorder is defined in the DSM-IV-TR using a single symptom criterion, which does not do justice to the phenomenological complexity of the disorder. In 394 affected adults, the Cambridge Depersonalization Scale yielded five factors (numbing, unreality of self, perceptual alterations, unreality of surroundings, and temporal disintegration), put forth as symptom criteria for a better diagnosis of depersonalization disorder.


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## Guest013

NODID said:


> The D group showed significantly greater improvement over time than the ND group (P = .002), although the groups did not differ in reported psychotherapy or pharmacotherapy effectiveness. The groups did not differ in CDS total score or on the 4 subscale scores of unreality of self, perceptual alterations, unreality of surroundings, and temporal disintegration.


So what I'm gathering from the study is that drug induced depersonalization usually goes away with time while non drug induced depersonalization is more difficult to recover from?


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## Brando2600

Guest013 said:


> So what I'm gathering from the study is that drug induced depersonalization usually goes away with time while non drug induced depersonalization is more difficult to recover from?


Good news for some of us....


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## Guest

Brando2600 said:


> Good news for some of us....


Wonderful. I have non drug induced dp.


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## PositiveThinking!

tinyfairypeople said:


> Wonderful. I have non drug induced dp.


Same here but, to be honest I kind of knew about this already I mean.. When it's not about drugs, it's about anxiety, and anxiety "regens" itself. An anxious person can't get rid of anxiety that easily, while as far as I know DP can be induced by drugs on someone whos mentally healthy right? So a person who has drug induced DP won't have more to worry about than the DP itself, now there might be worse cases which is anxiety+drugs at the same time, that's probably even harder.


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## Guest

ThisCantBeHappening said:


> Same here but, to be honest I kind of knew about this already I mean.. When it's not about drugs, it's about anxiety, and anxiety "regens" itself. An anxious person can't get rid of anxiety that easily, while as far as I know DP can be induced by drugs on someone whos mentally healthy right? So a person who has drug induced DP won't have more to worry about than the DP itself, now there might be worse cases which is anxiety+drugs at the same time, that's probably even harder.


That makes sense. The thing is, from what I've seen on this site, the majority of people who have dp for 10 plus years have it from drug induced dp.


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## Guest

tinyfairypeople said:


> That makes sense. The thing is, from what I've seen on this site, the majority of people who have dp for 10 plus years have it from drug induced dp.


I'm going on 7 years from drug induced dpd.


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## voidvoid

SWEET BABY RAPTOR JESUS THIS IS AWESOME. Now maybe, if im lucky, the psychiatrists in Sweden will learn about this disorder in 10 years instead of 30









This thread made my day.

VOTE FOR STICKY


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## jeffd

Brando2600 said:


> Good news for some of us....


ya mines from weed. good good news


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## Guest

Inzom said:


> VOTE FOR STICKY


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## David Kozin

Take caution in interpreting if DPD from drug versus non-drug does go away more quickly. Think about it this way: The drug experience is usually a single or few events and then they cease. This is in contrast to trauma that is constant, such as persistent abuse or traumatic life experiences that have lasting consequences. Consequently, the drug-induced group is not experiencing or rather RE-Experiencing the trauma -- this is the most likely explanation for the difference.

Links are a few minutes away.

David


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## David Kozin

Link to Articles


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## Surfingisfun001

This is badass. David you're the shit.


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## codeblue213

Really, I have drug induced DP and it's still here after 18 years.


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## Minerva8979

This is awesome!!!


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## David Kozin

To save the moderators the work:

I think a post discussing if a difference does or does not exist between the two groups should be posted for a different thread. I would be able to answer some questions based on the data gathered from this group and our research and the information in other literature.

However, because I noticed a publication in a high impact journal (and notable not written by Dr. Simeon) that states *the interest in DPD was growing and attributed it to the Internet support groups*, which this happens to be the core and also the one that usually sprouts others, I was hoping that the community would have some hope in knowing that you are not going unnoticed simply by being here. It also was a way to demonstrate the hard work of the participants who took the long survey from us many years ago, and I was repeatedly asked when the publications would come out and how could it make a difference with doctors and researchers. It took forever to come out because this is just the nature of the business, and because we did it without a salary or grant, and only enough donations to help with some statistical software costs for my local computer.

I should also note that NODID is really nothing more than a few people, although relatively well-networked, who are passionate about research and not a large company.

Cheers,

David


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## Sean 561

codeblue213 said:


> Really, I have drug induced DP and it's still here after 18 years.


Me too, 25 years here


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## codeblue213

Yep, drug induced DP doesn't just "fade away". Sad truth


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## Guest

"]SWEET BABY RAPTOR JESUS THIS IS AWESOME."[/b]

ROFL! 
I like that.
I hope Jesus isn't a shape shifting reptilian robot skeleton with flaming hair or something, LOL.

I wish to GOD my medical resident psychiatrist would acknowledge this illness to begin with. I am SO tired of ignorant mental health professionals I could SCREAM BLOODY MURDER.

However, each case is unique. Sadly I have had DP/DR for basically 51 years. Well, I had experiences at age 4/5, episodic in childhood, and chronic since @20 ... I have never taken a rec drug in my life.

I still think there is hope in ANY research and this in particular.
I am SO, SO tired. My meds help mainly. Therapy helps me cope.
What is difficult is I did come from severe abuse and lack of a family. I think that made things worse. I'm angry about that now.

And thank you David.
I have to keep having hope ... everyone here does.


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## Guest

codeblue, your signature is rather disturbing as well.


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## DPNOrway

PositiveThinking! said:


> Same here but, to be honest I kind of knew about this already I mean.. When it's not about drugs, it's about anxiety, and anxiety "regens" itself. An anxious person can't get rid of anxiety that easily, while as far as I know DP can be induced by drugs on someone whos mentally healthy right? So a person who has drug induced DP won't have more to worry about than the DP itself, now there might be worse cases which is anxiety+drugs at the same time, that's probably even harder.


thats me right there... i think... im not sure cus i might have gotten anxiety from drugs to


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## SnakeyMLT

mines not drug induced, so are you saying this could go away by time? 0.o?? im sick of this sh!t...


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## BusyBee

Ah man. My DP is not drug induced or anxiety induced. I went through alot of trauma for two years... its gone now.. no flashbacks. I understand what happened. Its gone. Its in the past. I feel emotionally stable and completly unaffected by it.

I guess theres no answers. I may stop looking.


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## York

DP, like all the other psychiatric conditions, are over-analyzed by lab-rats who only see it from the outside. I wish psychiatrist would leave this the hell alone, it's just bullshit! Everything I've ever read about DP written by the medical community is just bullshit.

They look at brain-scans and figures and test-results given by terrified people, and they conclude with some biological nonsense (area 5x9 lights up green in prefrontal cortex left side upper-lobe, that means it's not responsive enough!), psychological nonsense (so your dad yelled at you? You feel anger? Houston, we have something in common in these guys (and all the rest of humanity save Paris Hilton)!! ), and test-results given by someone who is in the middle of dp, and who clearly wants to be taken seriously, has come all the way from wherever, and knows this is the time to really get some help if they just describe exactly how horrible it is.

Why are brain-scans bullshit? Your mind rules your brains chemistry, meaning that if you are in a state of shock, you have activated the brains survival mode, which includes shutting off emotional response, and enforcing rational thinking. It does not show any wires being cut, areas missing or lack of blood. It shows electricity, which changes with mood and the mental state you're in. Sadly, if you've pushed yourself too long, you'll biology takes the wheels and set you on autopilot, that does not mean you can't get to a place where you feel safe enough for it to go back to normal.

Why is psychological tests bullshit? Because the human mind is way too complex! We are all different, we all have hundreds of factors that determine how we cope with life.

Trust in your own ability to heal, this is a coping mechanism. Drug-induced DP goes away because it wasn't set off by inner conflicts, it was set of by a biological response to drug-induced anxiety.

2/3 of people recover from schizophrenia, and no-one knows who many recover every day from dp. One things for certain, and that is that if you make ANYTHING your life's project, it being anorexia, being a nerd, being poor or having dp, *it will stick with you.*


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## Freya4SmilesAgain

I have non-drug induced...what does this mean for non drug users? Never touched any...Im soooo confused. lol. x.....just read the comment above, i get it now ha. Im dim...i blame it on my DP


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## stefisings

Whether it is drug induced or not....lt is treatable and curible. Its just exhausting!


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## Guest

although there's no doubt it can be triggered by drugs, I do believe it's always psychological in origin.
A withdrawing into self to escape painful reality.
I had breakdowns on pot, but I started mentally introverting many years earlier. I just didnt know the future consequences of the patterns I was establishing in my mind. I was just an unhappy little boy. I couldnt know.


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## Guest

Phantasm said:


> although there's no doubt it can be triggered by drugs, I do believe it's always psychological in origin.
> A withdrawing into self to escape painful reality.
> I had breakdowns on pot, but I started mentally introverting many years earlier. I just didnt know the future consequences of the patterns I was establishing in my mind. I was just an unhappy little boy. I couldnt know.


Tbh, Im not sure if its not all covered elsewhere under anxiety and dissociative symptoms.

but the emphasis on these symptoms, of dp and, in my case dr, makes a dubious philanthropic Sotho.


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## Guest

Phantasm said:


> Tbh, Im not sure if its not all covered elsewhere under anxiety and dissociative symptoms.
> 
> but the emphasis on these symptoms, of dp and, in my case dr, makes a dubious philanthropic Sotho.


Did I post that? I don't even know what that means, and I dont think that's what I was trying to say.

My point was, that theses symptoms are covered elsewhere outside of a specific dissorder.

I appreciate that it is concidered to be chronic when other symptoms have died down and it remains, but all things are relative and perhaps one persons level of (chronic) stress is felt normal in a way it would not be to another - hence a consistent undercurrent of anxiety and related symptoms.

That said, these symptoms OR conditions, although known, are harrowing in a way that is underrecognised, and can certainly be the on-going, most disturbing aspect of dissacociative, stress-related conditions - due to their ongoing nature.

Specific disorder or not, many people who live with these symptoms take them as normal and dont concider or feal they can discuss them, or that they will be recognised without ridicule or disbelief(or without being sectioned)- so I welcome greater emphasis on these fundamentally troubling, often sidelined symptoms, however they are classified.


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## jihejihe

Visitors to the Museum will enter through a Pavilion that will house an auditorium for public programming, a multi-purpose area for contemplation and refreshment and a private suite reserved for victims'family members. Two of the original steel tridents from the Twin Towers will beenclosed within the Pavilion’s grand glass atrium, standing as references to the past, while signaling hope for the future.


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## DPD Student

This post really makes me feel better.. After experiencing DpD after weed usage, I feel assured that it will go away with time.. Everyone is strong for trying to fight their DpD .. Best of luck everyone!


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## perd

Guest013 said:


> So what I'm gathering from the study is that drug induced depersonalization usually goes away with time while non drug induced depersonalization is more difficult to recover from?


Hey, im wondering if u recovered why are u doubtful about the info here and visiting this site alot? are u sure ur 100% recovered? im not doubting ur credibility but its that all the ppl say they almost recovered and keep on commenting and asking.


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## perd

BusyBee said:


> Ah man. My DP is not drug induced or anxiety induced. I went through alot of trauma for two years... its gone now.. no flashbacks. I understand what happened. Its gone. Its in the past. I feel emotionally stable and completly unaffected by it.
> 
> I guess theres no answers. I may stop looking.


why would u wanna search if it went away lol


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## Emillie

Phantasm said:


> although there's no doubt it can be triggered by drugs, I do believe it's always psychological in origin.
> A withdrawing into self to escape painful reality.
> I had breakdowns on pot, but I started mentally introverting many years earlier. I just didnt know the future consequences of the patterns I was establishing in my mind. I was just an unhappy little boy. I couldnt know.


My Life.


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## SundaySeance

This thread starts out with a hopeful article and quickly goes to:

"oh yeah well mine is drug induced and ive had it for 10 years"

"ive had it for 20!"

"ive had it for 30! it never goes away!"

Thanks for the hope, fuckfaces.


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## peanut butter

SundaySeance said:


> This thread starts out with a hopeful article and quickly goes to:
> 
> "oh yeah well mine is drug induced and ive had it for 10 years"
> 
> "ive had it for 20!"
> 
> "ive had it for 30! it never goes away!"
> 
> Thanks for the hope, fuckfaces.


That's the reality duh.


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## Ihatedp89

You get rid of the anxiety and depression, the DP goes away. Simple as that


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## daydreambeliever

Not depressed, not anxious today, still dreaming...


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## Washer

Ihatedp89 said:


> You get rid of the anxiety and depression, the DP goes away. Simple as that


uhh, what?
Never had neither. But loads of dr.


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## Klonac

Ihatedp89 said:


> You get rid of the anxiety and depression, the DP goes away. Simple as that


I'm nor anxious,nor depressed...still is here 24/7 and never goes away.


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## sunshinita

I am really curious to know, these people,who have had it for 20,30,50 years,did you take meds,did you even try to cure it with antidepressants or else? Cause I am very confused here,people are asking and searching for the cure but in the same time they are so against antidepressants. And I can tell from experience that a SNRI helped me A LOT! Yes,it doesn't cure it but it masks the symptoms and as long as you take it,you feel pretty normal.Like schizo people,there are a lot of them that you will never tell that there is something wrong with them but they are on pills and live normal life because of them.I am just curious,did/do you at least try antidepressants?


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## Jamby

sunshinita said:


> I am really curious to know, these people,who have had it for 20,30,50 years,did you take meds,did you even try to cure it with antidepressants or else? Cause I am very confused here,people are asking and searching for the cure but in the same time they are so against antidepressants. And I can tell from experience that a SNRI helped me A LOT! Yes,it doesn't cure it but it masks the symptoms and as long as you take it,you feel pretty normal.Like schizo people,there are a lot of them that you will never tell that there is something wrong with them but they are on pills and live normal life because of them.I am just curious,did/do you at least try antidepressants?


About 35 to 40 years for me. Yes, tried them before and after I realized I had DP. I can't argue against something that seems to give you some relief. I don't take them any more because after a while they lose there effectiveness. Seems it just makes you feel more comfortable with your DP.


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## googleeyes

It's a combination of anxious thoughts, depressive behaviour, a predisposition and general obsessiveness. To recover from dp, you need to address all of these issues.


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## curiousmind

tinyfairypeople said:


> That makes sense. The thing is, from what I've seen on this site, the majority of people who have dp for 10 plus years have it from drug induced dp.


It's usually the marijuana-induced DP that stays for longer bouts, these patients stick around on this forum for longer. LSD- and ecstacy-induced DPD seems to dissipate gradually, many of these patients will leave the site sooner. This has been my observation on this forum and reddit by 2020. A more rigorous clinical assessment in this territory is definitely still warranted.


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