# link to pictures of a DP brain VS "normal" brain



## flowingly

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/con ... 57/11/1782


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## Imagine

:shock:


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## flowingly

i'm scared to see what my brain looks like


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## Imagine

My brain probably looks like one of these two:


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## peacedove

THANK YOU! I'm gonna print that out and show it to my shrink when I see him in 5 weeks.


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## bat

i hope that all means they're closer to finding effective treatment


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## Kelson12

Janine....any thoughts on this?


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## sebastian

This is kind of big news, isn't it? Does this mean that there IS a physical cause to DP or is a DP brain that way because of the feelings we produce ourselves (extra anxiety causing more adrenelin or whatever)? Chicken or egg?


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## Kelson12

sebastian said:


> This is kind of big news, isn't it? Does this mean that there IS a physical cause to DP or is a DP brain that way because of the feelings we produce ourselves (extra anxiety causing more adrenelin or whatever)? Chicken or egg?


Kind of what I was wondering. Am interested in hearing Janine's thoughts on this.


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## Homeskooled

That study has actually been around for a while (circa 2000). I had a PET done, well actually its less expensive cousin SPECT, and it showed similair things, as well as a pattern eerily similar to patients with Temporal Lobe Epilespy and Parietal Lobe Epilepsy. Really, I think people with hardcore, non-drug induced (and some with drug-induced) DP have a simple sub-clinical seizure problem. This is why the only meds to touch it are anticonvulsants, like Lamictal and Klonopin. The symptoms arent just similar with DP and TLE - they are the same. I imagine Janine will say that the brain findings are simply a product of our thoughts and actions. And in many cases, that could be true. Think about a certain thing, a certain part of the brain lights up. But in true brain pathology, you cant help BUT think about a certain thing, because that part of the brain is always lit up whether you want it to be or not. You'll be thinking existential thoughts about whether you exist, and you cant help it. In those cases you can have therapy until Freud's second coming, but you will always be using a flawed canvass. Certain personality traits and brain diseases are inherited. Chicken or egg? Nature or Nurture? I'll say that the brain scans came first and in primary DP, its the nature and not the nurture.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Guest

I think what it means is not that the parts of our brain are misshapen, lead to other parts of the brain in wrong ways.... I think those colors are there for brain activity.... meaning a part of our brain is just being used too much compared to other people's. I think i read its the metabolic rate of the brain cells (basicly meaning certain areas are more "turned on" than other peoples, and certain areas are more turned off)

Probably just meaning were psychologically damaged, not that our brains are physically damaged


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## Guest

Funny, i've just arrived at the university of miami. And I feel as if dp/dr are what I've been suffering from for 5+ years now, maybe i'll feel comfortable going to the counseling center now. Feeling like shit as always =/


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## Homeskooled

It IS an error in metabolism. Whether that is an inborn, genetic trait or simply that you have poor voluntary thought patterns is the question. Conscious thought, however, doesnt actually manifest in the parietal area of the brain, as on the scans. Our perceptions of our bodies (which isnt under our control) as well as muscle control and our "body map" occur in the parietal lobe. This probably explains the odd sensation of not existing or not having a body that some people with DP have.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Dreamer

Homeskooled said:


> *It IS an error in metabolism.* Whether that is an inborn, genetic trait or simply that you have poor voluntary thought patterns is the question. Conscious thought, however, doesnt actually manifest in the parietal area of the brain, as on the scans. *Our perceptions of our bodies (which isnt under our control) as well as muscle control and our "body map" occur in the parietal lobe. This probably explains the odd sensation of not existing or not having a body that some people with DP have. *
> 
> Peace
> Homeskooled


I'm very much with Homeskooled on this one, particularly the last sentence.

Also, I emphasize that this does not necessarily mean our situation is "hopeless". I have had DP/DR for 30+ years. Had it on and off in my childhood. I am also anxious and have some mood problems.

There are two research institutes dedicated to DP Research -- Mt. Sinai in NYC and the IoP in London. That research has been going on for years. But we also can't forget research into all psychiatric and neurological disorders that have truly begun to take off, also a far greater understanding of genetics than even 10 years ago. The 1990s was "The Decade of the Brain" -- sort of a kick-off for things to come.

If you really want to understand this business about body perception, I highly recommend this book by neuropsychiatrist, V.S. Ramachandran:

Phantoms In The Brain

It is not difficult to read. It is about Dr. R's extensive research into the experience of those with phantom limbs -- that is individuals who have lost a limb and still experience its presense/sensations/pain, or *even those born without a limb who yet still feel the presense of that limb.*

Our brains have created a "map" of our bodies, our brains like/need/are evolved to "fill in the gaps." The opposite of that would be the lack of that ability, an inability to perceive the SELF properly and yet be aware that this is not normal.

I also believe this comes in so many different forms -- as reflected on the Board here -- but that there is likely to be some common pathway, glitch, malfunction, etc.

And DP/DR comes in varying degrees here. Some chronic, some episodic. Some say their anxiety is worse than their DP/DR. For me my most debilitating symptoms are my DP/DR and always have been. Some have absolutely incapacitating DP, etc.

Some dream in DP, some don't. Some are riddled with anxiety, some aren't. Some of us here are depressed, some aren't.

Bottom line, for a good many here there are many treatment options, and I believe in the future there will be many more.

If we understand the complexity of *any* illness in the human body, we must understand a brain that isn't functioning properly is extremely difficult to understand -- we can't get in and poke around at everyone's brain in the way we can operate on any other part of the body. It is a very difficult task to deal with. Yet, I have come to believe that DP/DR -- the symptoms are as HS says some sort of metabolic glitch, or it could be that in some of us we have minor changes in brain morphology.

I highly suggest reading the Ramachandran book. It is wonderful in helping one understand how the brain works. Also Ramachandran's book, A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness briefly discusses DP/DR. Also, look at the articles posted, books mentioned here -- check out the bibliographies. There is a massive amount of research going on. The bibliographies will lead you to more and more articles.

See the Links Section to the IoP. There is a whole list of articles on DP there.

And again, this doesn't mean our cases are "hopeless". Therapy, CBT, medications, etc. are all helpful in helping us cope with this, and there are many stories where DP/DR has been eliminated.

Best,
D

Song in my head at this moment, go figure,
"I won't give up if you don't give up...
Oh I am calling all you angels..."


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## peacedove

Dreamer... I am interested to know if you've tried any meds and if so which ones. I think I relate to the severity of your DP.... if that makes any sense. Please excuse me, I'm hungover.


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## qbsbrown

I'm fairly surprised that they've had these pet/spect scans for over 5 years now, and no effective treatment, for the masses. Especially considering this was done with Daphne Simeon.

Second is a question. Could DP/DR have different levels or types? Such as diabetes?

I would venture a guess of yes, as many illnesses are. Which leads me to wonder that for the recovered, i.e Janine, perhaps like the lesser of the two diabetes (not to diminish what she went through for 20 years), hers could be beat w/ psychotherapy and various methods of focusing outwords and what not (diabetes: good diet, exercise). But for the more seriuos types, we/they might have to take insulin, i.e meds.

thoughts?


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## Guest

i had a EEG & a Catscan done and all doctors said my brain looked perfectly normal, so I don't get this " DP BRAIN" bullshit


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## qbsbrown

Pet and Spect scans are different than Mris/cat/eegs


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## Guest

i don't understand????????


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## Tom Servo

Maybe this* just proves that I should never, ever be allowed to become a brain surgeon, but if we know that we all have too much activity in the such and such an area of the whatever lobe, can't we just,... Hell, I don't know, shunt off some of the blood flow to those areas or something to slow them down to normal? Makes sense to me. Now... who'll volunteer to go first?

*Along with the fact that my GPA pretty much sucked.


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## Luka

> i don't understand????????


Maybe this website can help you? http://www.mcmanweb.com/article-243.htm


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## Luka

I wonder if those activity ereas in the brain can explain my feeling of having a tension at the base of my skull before I get a DP/DR episode...


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## orangeaid

That is really interesting, those pictures prove there is something there, it is not just all in our heads. I think it sometimes IS started by our minds but we are stuck in it without our minds being able to snap out of it. and by it i mean this horrible state called dp/dr


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## qbsbrown

I believe this is why there has been some sucess w/ lamictal, slowing down some of these areas (even klonopin, lets not forget it's an anti seizure/epileptic drug. 
Seems that DP/DR mimics symptoms of TLE, included would be all of our symptoms plus anxiety and depression. 
I would be more inclined to say that anti-epileptic drugs are going to become way more effective than antidepressants in treating this. Just don't understand why it hasn't become more developed.

Doesn't seem like there has been much concern in the neruological/pharmaceutical/pshchiatric world of getting things moving.
How many studies have been done since these findings? Very minimal.

Hopefully we're headed in the right direction. Get taking that survey!!!


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## Guest

I don't want to read articles and all of this shit

I just don't understand the whole point of this post

what are you trying to get at exactly?


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## orangeaid

What? the whole concept is showing that there is some kind of hyperactivity that is going on in a DP/DR person's brain, compared to the regular healthy patient.

And EEG & a Catscan btw everyone gets these everyone says nothing is wrong they are not the test that these photos are based off of.

Its basically saying we ARE different and it might not just be in our thoughts but more so physically something wrong. All this is proving is that there is something wrong and something that needs fixing in these patients.


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## Guest

I thought DP/DR was a symptom of anxiety and depression , other mental illnesses and drug abuse Thats what ive been told by every doctor/psychologist that I have seen.

To me this just puts things more in question and makes me feel more confused.


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## Dreamer

SB,

There has long been a school of thought that mental illnesses of all kinds have a neurological basis. It is difficult to poke aroung in a live brain. It's the most complex organ in the body.

These studies are in their infancy, but here at the local uni the focus is on neuropsychiatry, that is understanding mental illness from a biological poiint of view. And that doesn't mean it's hopeless, but it means there are medical ways of treating this.

We already know this about many mental illnesses such as schizophrenia, bipolar, etc. I subscribe to the theory that DP/DR are indeed neurological in origin.

You have to read about these things or you can't understand them. There is a huge body of work out there, books, articles, and now the internet.

This doesn't mean that talk therapy isn't an integral part to psychiatric/medical treatment.

I have also had an EEG and a CAT scan that showed nothing. This was back in 1980. Things have changed dramatically since then. My guess is if I had the money for a SPECT or PET, etc. my brain would show something irregular.

This doesn't frighten me. It gives me a sense of control. And there is indeed an intricate connection between Nature and Nurture. None of this can be boiled down to a simple answer.

Knowledge is power.

Best,
D


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## Dreamer

As I've said a million times as well, if you want information for the layperson, go to the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill website...

http://www.nami.org


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## Luka

> I don't want to read articles and all of this sh*t


Well, I'm sorry if I wanted to help you! :? Sjeez...


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