# demon possession and mentel illness



## Guest

just wodering if you think there is a correlation? and please,if you are not christian, or dont believe in evil and holy powers, dont respond cause arguing is the last thing i want to do..thanks


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## kenc127

Hi Rob

I'm of the belief that demon posession can occur. If you are a Christian though, the Bible says this cannot occur in the life of someone who believes in Christ. Does this help?

Ken


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## Guest

hey man i agree with you...and i also believe that mental illness can be from the demon possessing you....but the thing is , is that i am not close to God anymore, and i know that to stay close and be a true christian, yuou have to walk everyday with Christ...so i could very well be possessed, but i am so down to kick its ass out of me....for sure,


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## Martinelv

Most modern churches (except the Catholic church, which kind of keeps it in the closet as a sort of embarassment) no longer believe in the devil or demons. Rather, they think of them as methaphors for purgatory - or plainly speaking, life without the company of god.


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## Guest

actually most moderm churches DO believe on demons....united pentecostal church...most non denominational churches, assembly of God...apostolic....full gospel...


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## Guest

Throughout most of history there have been documented cases of demonic possession. The person would suddenly fall to the ground and roll and writhe. Their eyes rolled back in their heads and their necks twisted and their head looked like it was going to turn around completely (much like in the move The Exorcist). Priests tried to remove the demons, and often the person was saved. it was epilepsy. Humans love to ascribe something mystical and terrifying to something that is pure science. Beware.


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## Guest

It's much easier to compare the symptoms of illnesses to demons rather than explaining it as lets say your serotonin level is low and there are blockages in the synapses, im just using it as an example.


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## Homeskooled

Dear Robbie, 
I dont think that most cases of DP or DR are any form of demonic influence, and eventhough I'm incredibly big on science, I'm open to the possiblity of things existing which I cannot touch or see or smell. In the Catholic Church, of which I am part, they do document the cases of exorcism (they have to), and there is an entire rite devoted to exorcisms, the rubrics of which date back to the 14th century. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, head of the Council for the Doctrine of Faith in Rome, recently updated the rite with the Pope's blessing. Exorcists deal with two forms - obsession, in which a person is influenced from the outside by a diabolical force, and possession, which is a total displacement of person's personality for long stretches of time. Earmarkers for being posessed are : (1) Speaking in a dead language, like Aramaic, which you cant possibly know (2) Having access to hidden knowledge (3) An abhorrence of religous things (4) Abnormal strength. These cases happen really, really, rarely, even by the Catholic Church's account. What is thought to be more common is the outside influence, or obsession. Generally people with troubled lives, troubled minds, troubled health, will ask for a blessing from an exorcist. But the best way to combat this is supposedly to have a good prayer life anyway. Being in a good place morally is the best exorcism. I hope this helps, and dont let it worry you too much.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## sebastian

I'm with Homeskooled. We truly can't say that these things don't happen. The world is far too complicated for us to be so sure of ourselves that we definitely KNOW that this is true or this isn't. And science, it seems, often raises more questions than it answers. It's always surprising us.

I truly don't believe that any of us are "possessed demonically", but i wouldn't completely rule out us being under the influence of some "evil spirit" or another, for lack of a better word.

I know that sounds silly...but you never really know...

good thread...

s.


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## JasonFar

My case of DP/DR has similar demon-possession symptoms, I think... my psych said in the past that the symptoms I experienced before would have, in the past, been classified under "demon possession".

For example, for the longest while, I would wake up with a "presence" of my father on my head (mind). A controlling figure... but on my mind. Couldn't get it out of my head. Still deal with it, to a far less extent. It was me, but wasn't me. My explanation, since then, is the fact that a part of my Self that couldn't deal with Him as a reality, totally repressed itself over time, and my narcissistic personality hid those images for a long while... But after I had my breakdown, and that repressed Self came back about, so did those emotions come with it.

Make sense?

Anyway... possession in that I truly felt that it dictated my existence in that it existed as a part of my consciousness for a long while, involuntarily. A theory is the repressed Self's only way to overcome such a possession is to get back its right to Life and what was perceivably taken away from it (freedom, etc), and there are I think different therapeutic approaches to that...

Anyway all conceptual.


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## jc

ive heard it all now


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## jft

I see it like homeskooled as well. And I won't discount anything until I hit the pearly gates and get the final word.

But a problem I do have with possession is the fear it causes people and the emphassis that is put on it by some groups. I ran in those circles you mentioned Robbie (Assembly of God etc.) becasue I went through four months of drug rehab at a Teen Challenge center which was run by Assembly of God. I was a real conundrum for them becasue of the dp/dr which they knew nothing about. Back then I thought it was lsd flashbacks They said without a doubt it was demon possession. This freaked me out, coming from a more subdued Catholic background. They proceeded to bring in a "broken" healer from New York and had a whole bunch of elders in a room and proceeded to "exorcize" me. When nothing happened (outside of some psysiological sensations I have never explained) they were again dumfounded. So they said I needed to memorize scripture in order to throw the devil out. So I memorized half the Bible. I left rehab worse in symptoms then when I went in.

I do not deny the presence of an evil force that can oppress, anything is possible. I just do not embrace it anymore. I feel my fear of such a thing made me worse, and my attention to it only caused hyperviglence to worsen, which worsened dp/dr.

We as dper's have psycyhological and neurochemical problems that need intervention of some sort. Almost all of us here look toward meds or therapy or nutrition or whatever as primary sources for help. Many look to God for guidance, spiritual comfort and even healing as they pursue these earthly routes.
And some look on it only as a war between God and evil. I look on it as human dilemna that needs much attention, and I will accept any help I can get,even God's, but I need to do my part too. 
jft


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## Guest

wow Jft, i know exactly what you are saying, and i have felt/feel the same way. I used to go to assemble of God churches as well as other pentecostal churches. the thing that scared me was the demon talk cause i came from a catholic backgrond as well. i used to have panic attacks in church cause i was scared of the speaking in tongues and the way they worship God(the way i worship him now, cause being real is better than saying some monotone prayer that you have memorized) ....but the thng is that hollywood and our imaginations make demons out to be scary and such, but the fact is that we can put our foot over satan if we have Christ within us. i think we could very well be possessed, and it is very obvious that alot of us are definetly opressed. i am just willing to pray this evil shit out of my life man....we dont have to call the demon out or play "exorcist"...we just need to holy spirit to do some deep cleaning...and that means prayer, prayer, prayer.....man you are very intelligent JFT and thank s for your reply


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## Guest

maybe this is so because they cant find anything wrong with us when they do mri's, but why exactly is it that alot of us get it from drugs both legal and illegal, also today when i was taking a shower i closed my eyes, put my fingers over them and it was semi dark, then as i tried to focus the dark got darker and i felt as if i was actually inside a completely dark room, then i dont know if it was a hallucination but i could see a light at the end of the darkness and i tried to go towards the light by pulling on the darkness, as i got further and further the fear grew and grew until i couldn't take it anymore and opened my eyes and i felt my DP/DR vision and feeling went away 30 percent and i could see more clearly, it was very fun.


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## terri*

Going along with Robbie's request of arguing being the last thing he wants...we are doing a great job of honoring that request.

I, too, have been involved at times in pentecostal, AoG and other non-denominational churches. Though I love the praise and worship, and usually the message that is presented...I'm just not going to go along with that "everybody else is going to hell and let's cast the demon's out" mind set. As jft wrote about, I'm not going to do anything because it is fear based. Fear, of some kind, is what got me here. I certainly don't think being threatened with fear is the way to get out.

I believe in believing. In this case, I believe we have a mental disorder. I believe that prayer and science can work hand in hand, as is being attested to more and more frequently.

It is the POWER of what works for each of us. You can be your own power. For many here, any other way of thinking isn't a happening way for them. I mean if you are an athiest or agnostic ( there can't be both, there can be both) none of this thread is going to work for you. It is in fact, all conceptual as Jason wrote. And that works for me, too.

So, Robbie, you work on praying this evil crap out of your life and I'll be saying one for you myself. Best wishes on making this work to the positive for you.

And Mods, yew hew, have we crossed over to the point where this would be better discussed in the Religious Thread forum (or whatever it is called )?

terri*


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## terri*

Johnny Utah...what we won't do to "see" how we are doing and what is or is not wrong with us. :lol:

I'm telling ya, don't watch the water coming out of the faucet and running in to the sink. :shock:

Didn't your Momma ever warn you not to cross your eyes ? 

Sorry, what you wrote cracked me up.

terri


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## sebastian

terri* said:


> And Mods, yew hew, have we crossed over to the point where this would be better discussed in the Religious Thread forum (or whatever it is called )?
> 
> terri*


I thought about this too terriwithanasterisk, but the thing is, i have never once, to the best of my knowledge, ventured into that area of the board, and so would have missed this thread. And i imagine there are others like me. If someone else wants to move it there, by all means...but i hardly see the harm keeping it here, just for volume's sake.

You know, if i wasn't tired and half in the bag right now, i'd like to post more on this subject. It's actually very interesting. I had a sort of religious experience during one of my first major dp bouts. And i had another very strange psychic experience during a hash binge. I'm often hesitant to speak of the former, because when i do so, it doesn't sound like that big of a deal, and of course in retrospect i look at it as though it was probably just the whirlwind of emotions i was going through. But at the time...it was incredibly powerful and comforting. i'll post more of this when i'm feeling a little more coherent. Damn good thread though...

s.


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## jft

Robbie. I have an anecdote about tongues etc. My first night at the pentecostal drug rehab center they got us together and had a service and they started to sing in tongues and spoke of demons. Freaked me out so bad (I had just seen the excorcist the week before) that I lit out of the unit and ran away, but had to return becasue I was court ordered. But I learned to appreciate that kind of worship becasue of the emotion and dedication of the people and came to be comfortablw with it, even though I never had those "gifts"

I have four backgrounds. Raised Catholic, then Pentecostal, went to Evangelical theology school and now "up in the air" . All three look at evil influences in differing ways, but all attribute validity to some extent. Even the evangelicals are now acknowledging oppression, but they treat it less seriously than pentecostals.

Pentecostals intrigue me becase of the black and white, all or nothing war between God and Satan. It is a very "out of this world" view that many of course laugh at them for.
But they hold on and fight the fight, separating themselves from "the world". I respect this but again cannot embrace it for me becasue I see my immediate fight not against Satan, but against illegal drugs, alcoholism, poor family upbringing, heredity, genetics, neurological short circuits, societal ills, angst in the world, anxiety disorders, parental abuse, insecurity, lack of research for our malady and so on. All of these things lead to dp/dr, and evil may be a factor in how these things got to be in this world, but it is not for me to know. And I go with what I know for now. No more thoughts of possession, and if oppression is a concern I say do what the others said, to keep your spiritual side clean and the rest will take care of itself. In the meantime it is this earthly effort where my energy will go, and if I can ever get my faith in gear again, that will be engaged as well,side by side. Just becasue we are not all cured does not mean God is not there, and I truly do not think it is because Satan has "got us". I envy people with faith. I would give my left nut to have it. I am glad that you do.
jft


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## Guest

you see, i am not scared of this subject because i love God, and i believe in Jesus.....the thing is , is that its not fear that is gonna get us out of this, rather the love of God that will. Demon possession is rarely like the hollywood movies or the devil horned pics we have in our imaginations. it is a fight for our souls, and they are sneaky , deceitful , demons that pray on our weaknesses. Demons tend to attack you will propositions that pertain to the flesh.....illicit sex, violence, greed....ect....and these things , when entertained, bring us into a situation where we are feeding the fleshly desires and never find happiness...i know, cause i am there right now(slowly getting out , praise God) the only way we cn get out of anxiety and fear, and in turn produce GENUINE happiness, is by feeding our soul....we are good people, and i can tell many of you are genuinly good, we just need to feed that soul which craves thing of love, content, trust, and warmth,....we just need God..plain and simple....and the people that give up hope on God jst dont go at it the right way.....there is not a special prayer to be said, or a ritual to be done....just a relationship...God is omnipresent, meaning he is everywhere, we dont have to close out eyes super tight to get his attention(lol) when we pray. nor do we need to be in a church....we just need the creator of this world , moreover the creator of us to intervine....we are weak right now and cant do this on our own.....we need the protection of God to get the demons out of our lives...


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## sebastian

on second thought, maybe this should be moved...i'll keep a shadow of it here so that people know where to find it.

s.


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## Guest

yeah S. i should have said something, or possibly posted it on the other thread....sorry..


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## Martinelv

So.........we should keeps our minds open about the possibilty of us being possessed by demons/spirits ? Why ? Should we keep our minds so open that our brains fall out ? In that case (and with a supreme effort to be flippant), why not aliens from the planet zogg blasting us with DP rays ? Or perhaps a invisible magic leprachaun that sits on our shoulder. Or maybe it's our pets, the wind, butterflies, the dirty brown rings around Uranus ? Can someone tell me the difference ? Why do we ingulge these fantasies ? If you had seen as many psychotic people who had wallowed in paranormal/supernatural/spiritual nonsense as an 'explanation' then you might think twice.

The supposed 'success' of excoricsm was all to do with the power of suggestion. The person who was 'possessed' almost certainly knew about demon possession and the rites of excorcism, so in their state of sonambuliform 'possession' (see conversion hysteria), a priest chanting religious guff at them would almost certainly seem impressive. It's a load of old butt. You know it, I know it.


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## jc

i once was running a nightclub and one night the pipes burst and the club was flooded with 8 feet of water,i made a swim for the safe to collect the takings but the fruitmachine starting sliding towards me and pinned me up against the serving hatch at the bar....
i then blacked out and when i came to i told the ambulance man that id seen the lights 'a vision' i told him..but he replied that it was just the flashing lights on the fruit machine


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## sebastian

Martinelv said:


> So.........we should keeps our minds open about the possibilty of us being possessed by demons/spirits ? Why ? Should we keep our minds so open that our brains fall out ? In that case (and with a supreme effort to be flippant), why not aliens from the planet zogg blasting us with DP rays ? Or perhaps a invisible magic leprachaun that sits on our shoulder. Or maybe it's our pets, the wind, butterflies, the dirty brown rings around Uranus ? Can someone tell me the difference ? Why do we ingulge these fantasies ? If you had seen as many psychotic people who had wallowed in paranormal/supernatural/spiritual nonsense as an 'explanation' then you might think twice.
> 
> The supposed 'success' of excoricsm was all to do with the power of suggestion. The person who was 'possessed' almost certainly knew about demon possession and the rites of excorcism, so in their state of sonambuliform 'possession' (see conversion hysteria), a priest chanting religious guff at them would almost certainly seem impressive. It's a load of old butt. You know it, I know it.


He's a witch! Burn him!!!


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## Martinelv

You want me don't you, you naughty little minx. Admit it. Well, you know where to find me....sat beneath satans gently stroking right hand.

:wink:


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## Guest

Jesus, Jesus, Jesus,Jesus.....just thought i would make you quiver in fear martin


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## Martinelv

Yes, I'm am terminally afraid of a man who almost certainly never even existed, first mentioned about 60 years after he was supposed to say he was the son of god, and if he did actually exist, was almost certainly schizophrenic.

I'm more afraid of my pet hamster. And he CAN walk on water.


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## Homeskooled

Dear Martin, 
Sorry, I couldnt let that remark sit. Christ was first mentioned by pagan and jewish historians in the mid 60's AD. Flavius Josephus wrote the first non-Christian accounts of Christ in his priceless book _Loudaike Archaiologia_, which we now just call the Antiquities. Philo, another Jewish historian, may have also made the first official mention, but his life after 40 AD is unclear to historians. The Romans Tacitus and Suetonius also make mention of Christ, and there is evidence that Philo may have actually met Him. Really, given that the Romans were incredibly gifted historians, and the Jews put such value in transcribing their history for posterity, Christ's existence is far better documented than that of say, Mohammed. Not that I doubt his existence either. But it really isnt in vogue right now to question the existence of Mohammed. Ah, atheism, so politically correct. Oh, and one other thing - Protestant churches dont teach that devils are a metaphor for purgatory. Nobody beleives in purgatory except the Catholic Church. And if you're Catholic, you know that purgatory isnt life without God. Its the place where you work through your problems before entering Heaven. God's there, alright. Hell is the absence of God, and thats what the demons suffer. A famous American theologian, who writes like the successor to CS Lewis, made a good point . Heaven and hell start here, on earth. These arent places - they are states of soul. God doesnt "cast" us into these places...we will just be alone with ourselves and the fruits of our lives. Its us, all along. We make choices, and we reap what we sow now. Live a good life, reap the benefits. Live a bad one, reap the benefits, or not. Alright, enough preaching.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## jft

Homeskool. Who is the C.S. Lewis successor you referred to?
jft


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## Homeskooled

Dear Jft, 
Peter Kreeft. He teaches at Boston College in Massachusettes. He wrote a sequel to the _Screwtape Letters_ called the _Snakebite Letters_ and has written some amazing Catholic apologetics books. He draws mostly from Thomists and Greek philosophy.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## jft

Thanks Homeskooled. I will check him out. I read everything C.S. wrote and still could not get enough of him. I thought he could my bridge between Catholicism and evangelicals. I have worked on that issue a great deal.
jft


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## falling_free

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this , but there is a programme on channel 4 (UK) tonight about demon possesions , escosisms etc etc from about 11 o clokc ish to 1 o clock, I even think I can remember hearing that the proigramme will feature a live exosism of some sort and will feature infomation on how parts of the brain behave when someone is supposadly 'possesed'..


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## Martinelv

Yeah, I saw that. Hysterical wasn't it ? Especially the uproar when a psychologist suggested, very diplomatically I thought, that exorcism might have something to do with suggestion and mental health, rather than actual spirits. What about that pastors wife, eyes bulging, thumping the bible screaming...'It's all about Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, JESUS', and the Islamic cleric shaking his head and saying it was all the do with 'Jin'. I nearly wet myself.

That bloke who was 'possessed', the poor bastard, was so obviously institutionalised by the evangelical cult he was preyed upon. And if that simpering exorcist was so good, why the blazes had that 'possessed' bloke been with him for FOUR years ? How's many bloody spirits does he have to cast out ?

Utter utter utter utter utter utter madness. And to be honest, very boring TV.


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## falling_free

Yeh I only watched the program until they did the supposed exorsism on the man and after the one thought prelevent in my mind was was that it? To me the man who was supposadally possessed just seemed like he had a few aspects of his personality that he wasnt too pleased about (Im not sure what his demons were supposed to be), and he didnt seem possed at all, I mean I excepted some kind of exsessive swearing spitting etc etc when the man doing the exsosim drew his 'demons' out but all we got was some man saying a load of mumbo jumbo about something and then the man who was being exorsised going yes I feel better and cleasned etc etc.

I thought that the presenter of the show was preety obviouslly skepitcal about the whole thing from his body language and the way he would talk about the process of exorsism and I also found that the program reiforced my own sceptical view of the whole excosism buisness.


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## Martinelv

I think we all agree, that the words we need to use are:

1.) Utter
2.) Bullshit
3.) Geezer
4.) Get
5.) Psychiatric 
6.) Help
7.) Quickly
8.) And
7.) Remove
8.) This
9.) Terrible
10.) Religious
11.) Infestation
12.) From
13.) Your
14.) Life.
15.) Yes,
16.) You
17.) Have
18.) Anxieties,
19.) But,
20.) YOU DON'T NEED A SEMI-CULT RELIGIOUS PRIEST/THING TO DO IT


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## Martinelv

> I thought that the presenter of the show was preety obviouslly skepitcal about the whole thing from his body language


Really ? Exactly how many non-religious people did he consult ? I think there was one guy who had about 30 seconds air time who suggested it might have something to do with psychologicaol issues (and he got shouted down by the jesus squad), and the rest of the time it was bickering between different faiths !!! 'God' fobid we actually have a program on the TV where someone MIGHT suggest that this religious stuff is all bullshit. Anarchy !!!

I tell ya, you are all fucking insane.


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## Guest

I am so relunctant to jump in here, yet here I go.

All humans have anger and aggression and selfishness and petty jealousy and envy and all kinds of bitter treats. Often people who also have mental symptoms (anxiety, pathological guilt, fear of the supernatural, fear of retribution, masochistic desire for retribution, rage at being helpless or dependent, old rage at parents, all kinds of stuff) have a VERY hard time accepting within themselves that they have aggression and anger and petty jealousy, etc...

so....as a "solution" they detach from their own inner devil, and believe in Demonic Possession - that way they can disown their own scary parts and say "it's SOMETHING that sneaked inside me, it's not me!"

Splitting - Pure Good versus Pure Evil concept is common as bread amongst the world of the symptomatic. A Perfect Father who loves me versus the ultimate Evil who is fighting for my soul.

In truth - the battle might be just the ordinary human condition - man at war with himself, trying to live with his own guilt and less-than-stellar motives...

When we're real quick to think exorcisms and demons.....we might be trying to avoid the reality of "I'm full of contradictions and deep down, I'll never be the saint I wish I was."


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## Martinelv

I too am reluctant to jump in here. :lol:

I couldn't agree more Janine. A psychologist on the program was trying to make the point that this excorcism (or deliverance) is a form of psychotherapy, where the exorcist is doing nothing more 'casting' out the persons 'problems' in a form of suggestion - a ritual, or rather a ritual of psychotherapy. And to someone who actually believes they are 'possessed', I'd say these rituals are fairly impressive. However, there-in lies the problem. In this case, the guy had been with the cult for FOUR YEARS, with demon casting-out rituals every couple of days for something as evil as a chesty cough. He was so obviously reliant on the 'priest' that he had become a weak-kneeded slave to the indoctrination of the 'church'.


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## grandma-stole-my-wheels

. .


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## gizmo

a born again Christian cannot be possessed but can be oppressed.God gave believers authority to cast out demons in Jesus' name.Unfortunately, Satan is very real whether people believe it or not, but , praise God, God has given believers all power over him and he is a defeated foe and he can do NOTHING to you unless you allow him to by opening up the door to him.I do believe he is behind any mental problem because the bible says he comes to steal, kill, and destroy, but Jesus has come so that we might have abundant life.


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## Martinelv

Ok - so born-agains are safe. But what about the rest of them ?



> Satan is very real whether people believe it or not


Not.



> and he can do NOTHING to you unless you allow him to by opening up the door to him


But what about that poor twelve year old girl in the Exorcist ? Surely she didn't do anything wrong ? She was innocent, surely ! And her head turned around 360 degrees and stuff.



> Jesus has come so that we might have abundant life.


Where is he ? Down the back of my sofa ? I often hear that people find him at the bottom of a bottle of vodka or in the wreckage of a car crash or on the blood vomitting victims of ebola in Africa, so perhaps I should start looking there. And don't think I haven't tried.

And why does his image always seem to appear in the middle of a potato or in the reflection on a window, just when surely he'd be better off doing something about Tsunami's and so forth ?


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## Guest

Many religious figures have claimed i was demon possessed when i had my bout with schizophrenia. i had people come into my room to trying to get the demons out of me, what do you call it, an excorcism? I was pretty damn ill. my memory of the time is so poor, but i certainly wouldnt dismiss the possibility of being demon possessed when mentally ill.


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## Martinelv

> Many religious figures have claimed i was demon possessed when i had my bout with schizophrenia.


Give me their name and address. I will personally hunt them down and kill the filthy bastards. :evil:


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## Monkeydust

> Many religious figures have claimed i was demon possessed when i had my bout with schizophrenia. i had people come into my room to trying to get the demons out of me, what do you call it, an excorcism? I was pretty damn ill. my memory of the time is so poor, but i certainly wouldnt dismiss the possibility of being demon possessed when mentally ill.


It must have surprised the local reverends to discover that, contrary to popular ecclesiastical belief, the new "holy water" for the 21st century is......antipsychotic medication!

Perhaps the demons simply don't like the side-effects.


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