# Is depersonalization simply a variation of an obsession?



## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

I thought it was about time I posted another one of my half-baked, speculative and almost entirely conjectural theories.

It's often remarked that if someone observes and analyses something for a long time that thing will lose its familiarity. If you repeat and carefully listen to a word several times you perceive it as simply a collection of sounds and syllables; likewise, if you observe, for instance, you house extensively you'll see it in a different light to the casual familiarity it usually takes. I've seen similar things remarked by people with Obsessive Compulsive disorder.

Anyway, my point is, could depersonalization - rather than representing one "losing themselves" - in fact rather be a result of one's body, one's voice and one's entire person losing its familiarity due to over self-observation and analysis? Could depersonalization, for some, actually be a form of obsession rather than a symptom in and of itself?

This certainly, seems to be true for me, to some extent. Most of the time I wouldn't stop to think about what my hands are doing or how my voice sounds - it's only when I observe myself to a significant degree that the "me" becomes very odd and foreign.

Just a thought. MonkeyD


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2005)

I think they are HIGHLY connected, but not exactly the same.

DP can be a sudden and/or chronic state of loss of (or pending losing) self. There is a physical reality that takes over (and this from the person who insists the entire origin is psychological). During the dp experience, we are literally IN an altered state of consciousness.

The difference between DP and Obsessional self-observation would be like the difference between Hypnotic Trance and someone who is highly impressionable. Yes, they're similar, but in the first the person is literally in a different plane of conscious experience. The mind is functioning on a more primitive level of self-awareness....it's closer to the terror of annhihilation anxieties BECAUSE of the altered state. In regressive ego states, a thought FEELS like a reality. And so it is with DP - we might have started out "imagining" what it would feel like to be No Self, but the onset of the symptom of DP actually brings that home - we're not in control of the switcher anymore. It happens TO us (or so it feels)

Also, a normal mind that is NOT in altered trance states, can "visit" the experience of "what if I'm really not me?" or experience the "creepy" feelings that come from massive self-monitoring. BUT...and this is the crux of the difference, their Ego state is strong enough to allow them to quickly and willfully switch back out of those feelings.

Altered, we have no access to the "WAY BACK" because where we are seems to be the only reality.

Peace,
Janine


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

I think it is a pure obsession in a way...

actually, I have a really funny analogy for it:

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/samsung.php

finding the answer to something that simply does not exist.

so simple yet so difficult at the same time


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## Scattered (Mar 8, 2005)

I also agree with the obsession hypothesis, at least for me. Theres a story by J.G. Ballard about a man who focuses on objects around him so closely, and so intently that they begin to lose their meaning. In an instant everything around him has been dissassociated (no pun intended) from their original meaning. His wife comes in but he doesn't recognize her at all. She looks like an object to him. He tries to manipulate this object by folding it over and ends up killing her without understanding his actions.

This is a ridiculously exaggerated example. But I used to do this a few years ago. I would stare out a car window and gradually seperate myself from objects like cars, telephone polls, and buildings until they started to lose their meaning. I created a very temporary state of DP. I think that because I dislike my life and its routine I tend to disassociate myself from it. Probably also related is the fact that it presents a kind of threat to me (hence the anxiety comes in). Interesting idea.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Monkeydust said:


> I thought it was about time I posted another one of my half-baked, speculative and almost entirely conjectural theories.


LOL Monkeydust. I frequently feel like this.

This is an interesting concept, and a conundrum for me. The thing that drives me bannanas is the number of times I have tried to MAKE someone else "focus too much" on their bodies, things, etc. to MAKE them feel DP.

I know as a child, I had that capacity, and things became "meaningless" in the strange way a word loses it's "meaning" if you say it too many times.

Bottom line, I think we are people who dissociate. We have the ability to disconnect from our Selves. But this is not something that all people can do.

I have asked every doctor/psychiatrist/therapist I have ever seen to "create" this feeling in themselves. Spent time in sessions, literally, trying to make them "think too much about something." I have asked the same of very bewildered friends.

They just don't get it.

I understand exactly what you're saying, and it best fits with my experience as a child -- being able to bring DP/DR on, and it wasn't scary, and then being able to "shake it away." Then later at around 12/13 it "took over". As Janine says, this "switch", it got stuck on.

I think though there are those capable of dissociation, and those who are not. I think it's pretty clear cut, and what I mean is in the sense of chronic pathological dissociation. We know normal folks have fleeting experiences when tired or under stress. But some don't have these feelings at all.

Interesting.

Also, I don't see this as "obsessive" however. I see DP as a very specific entity -- a perceptual shift. The obsessive fears I think stem from a horrendous sensation, from the anxiety it causes, or the anxiety it came from. I hope this makes sense. I.E. I can obsess often these days without getting more DP, but I will get more anxious. Then if the anxiety gets bad enough, the DP will get worse.

I will say, if I allow myself to "go there" -- to think about "who am I?" -- I could bring this on in a flash. And it would be bad. I think. I have trained myself more and more and more and more to "not go there." BUt if you're having a bad episode nothing will bring me out of it save time, or sleep.

Then, for those who have recovered, I've heard this time and time again, they have NO fear that this will come back. The "off switch" works and they don't have the thoughts.

There's a connection, and there is not a connection.

I am intrigued by your "half-baked, speculative and almost entirely conjectural" theory, and it is a conundrum.

We are unique. We dissociate. We have a greater capacity to do this than others.

Best,
D 8)

EDIT x 1


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

PS, oh man there's always a PS. Yeah I know.

Another thing. Over, man, the 15 years or more I've known my husband who has OCD, I have tried and tried and tried to make him feel DP. He obsesses over things (hoarder/clutterer, too difficult to explain the complexity of his thinking). He experiences TREMENDOUS anxiety, which leads him to avoid... a million things. He has never experienced what I describe as DP save in two instances.

1. A bad pot trip
2. A near-death, head-on auto collision

Also, I have a friend here on the board. He can obsess himself into a frenzy, but his DP is under control. He doesn't worry about DP or it's coming back. He is on a med he even wishes to discontinue.

But both this person and what I see in myself are the symptoms of GAD, which don't necessarily (but CAN) include DP -- but it is not considered a symptom of GAD in the DSM (which many here think is garbage, so I'll let that one slide by, LOL).

At any rate, not being able to stop worrying about something. Nothing helps. If you look up Generalized Anxiety Disorder, that seems to cover the obsessive worrying.

But now I have to stop and think about this more.

There's a connection, but not every person who focus' too much on themselves or things falls into a DP state. You have to be "prewired" "predisposed" to this.

I think that's all I have to say at the mo.
ACH RAMBLING.
D 8)


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2005)

Such interesting stuff here (THIS is what the researchers should be reading, in my opinion)

As Dreamer says, I also could put myself into slightly altered trance states as a child - could "dip" into the unreal feelings, and could always pull out quickly.

But when the switch is ON, that's DP. TO me, dp is only dp when it's unchosen - there is somethign so pervasive about the experience that it belies the piece of reality we retain when we've dipped into it intentionally.

A couple of years ago (here we go, regulars, grin...) I was in the hospital with an appendix disaster - it was possible that I would have to undergo emergency surgery (nothing risky, but urgent). To ME the pending horror had nothing to do with the surgercial knife, but a mounting anxieyt that "what if after all this time I wake up with DP???" Fear of anesthesia, etc...

In my mounting anxiety state (Trust me, you've never seen anyone worse than a recovered dp'er having consulations with the staff anesthesia team, calling my psychiatrist for advice, lol...it wasn't pretty), I tried to IMAGINE how a dp state could feel. Couldn't do it. THe best I could muster was to imagine Derealization...to imagine how that might "feel" if it happened.

To IMAGINE dp is to BE dp. I can't think of another way to say it. I could recall the details, intellectually, of dp states, but to FEEL it is to BE in it.

Just thoughts (and a chance to retell my appendix story, lol)

Peace,
Janine


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

OK, I'm obsessing over this, LOL. Latched onto the damned topic.

DP is a perceptual shift in our sense of Self that makes us *question* our sense of Self. The feeling in and of itself causes us to obsess about our existence. I think they come hand in hand. If you felt this way, wouldn't you obsess over feeling this way. The sensation itself brings into question the sense of Self, of existence.

I can calm myself during bad episodes by saying repeatedly, "this is an illness". If I can talk with someone, vent, keep talking, distracting, I "calm down."

Deja Vu is a perceptual shift in our cognitive function of memory that makes us _*question*_ the accuracy of our memory. I just read of a rare case (again deja vu is common in many people as a fleeting experience) ... but this rare case of a Japanese man (I think, it doesn't matter) who had chronic deja vu. He attempted suicide as he kept "reliving" a section or certain sections of his life over and over and over, he couldn't break the loop.

This is a distressing situation that would *cause* questioning.

If you have a pain down your left arm and pressure in your chest, you might start to obsess that you're having a heart attack, then get anxious, then the symptoms get worse, etc. because you're breathing irregularly.

I don't know if that's comparing apples and oranges or not.
Hey, I'm going to have an orange, and go to bed.
Nite
D 8)

If a switch is flipped we are then preoccupied with the sensations that come with the shift in our brain.

Oh, who knows! :?


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

> To IMAGINE dp is to BE dp. I can't think of another way to say it. I could recall the details, intellectually, of dp states, but to FEEL it is to BE in it.
> 
> Just thoughts (and a chance to retell my appendix story, lol)


LOL
We posted at the same time. Yup, I think we're getting somewhere.
I was going to mention appendix in the post above, then changed it to heart attack! Swear it, as I was going to say, "such as Janine's appendix ordeal......."
LOLOLOLOLOL 8)


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

> This is an interesting concept, and a conundrum for me. The thing that drives me bannanas is the number of times I have tried to MAKE someone else "focus too much" on their bodies, things, etc. to MAKE them feel DP.


LOL. I'd never be able to bring myself to get doctors or psychiatrists trying that. They'd probably then decide that I actually am mad lol.

Joking aside, I do see what you mean. There seem to be a number of people incapable of experiencing this state, and this makes it all the more hard for them to understand what it's like.

The only other thing I can think of is that perhaps people like you doctors and your husband are in theory capable of bringing on DP with excessive self-obsession and observation, but that they don't really "get" how to do this properly.

They might try as hard as they like to focus on themselves - what they look like, what their existence is like, who they actually are and so on - but, at the end of the day, they're not as "good" as we are at doing this. They can't put themselves through the same "mind games" about the self because they don't know how. But if they were to do this, they might eventually feel DP. They don't really understand the introspection, in the same way that some of us don't really understand extrospection (that's a damn cool word).



> As Dreamer says, I also could put myself into slightly altered trance states as a child - could "dip" into the unreal feelings, and could always pull out quickly.


I never really had this myself - I don't recall ever "dipping into" DP through thinking in a certain way (that's not to say that I never had the capacity). But I do remember it coming "out of the blue" a couple of times when I was younger, albeit only as a fleeting feeling, in a similar way to how a deja-vu feeling can simply "happen".

Speaking of which....



> I just read of a rare case (again deja vu is common in many people as a fleeting experience) ... but this rare case of a Japanese man (I think, it doesn't matter) who had chronic deja vu. He attempted suic*** as he kept "reliving" a section or certain sections of his life over and over and over, he couldn't break the loop.


And we think *we* have it bad.....

I can imagine that being absolutely horrible, and I can also imagine that the majority of people would either not believe the guy, or would think he was whining about nothing.

It's scary what our minds are capable of sometimes.....



> DP is a perceptual shift in our sense of Self that makes us question our sense of Self. The feeling in and of itself causes us to obsess about our existence.


So what you're saying is that DP causes obsession about the self; not the other way round.

Myself, I don't see it as simply as that.

Thinking about it now, I feel that asking which comes first - the DP or the obsession on the self - is a bit like asking whether the chicken came before the egg.

I see it as more likely that both DP and obsession over the self are traits that accompany the same basic psychological "make up" of a person. They may well and probably do "feed off" eachother - DP making the obsession worse and the reverse being also true - however, when all is said and done, they're both results of a distinct and deep-rooted underlying personality.

In this respect, it's unsurprising that people on this board commonly describe themselves as "introspective" and "philosophical" - and say that they were like this before their DP and not simply as a result of it. It's also equally unsurprising that certain people who have none of these traits are unable to feel DP no matter how hard they try.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2005)

Janine,

Lucky you you've come out DP.  I know what you mean by not being able to remember DP. When I was DP-free it was hard for me to think of what it was like. But I was so afraid of it that I didn't think of it, because I was afraid to slip into. I didn't play with fire by thinking of it. That was a way not to become dp"ed. And that worked.

Now that I am fully into that, It's the opposite. Real hard for me to slip into reality. Like beign in a mental hole and being unable to go out of the hole.


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## revdoc (Jan 2, 2005)

There was a time, back in the 50s, when some psychiatrists really understood this stuff: From a textbook "Clinical Psychiatry":- 


> "_Obsessional ruminations_ also occur, and seem, of all obsessional symptoms, those most associated with _depersonalisation_ and _derealisation_...When called upon to get down to urgent business affars the patient is hamstrung by a repetitive and endless turning over of thoughts of an irrelevant kind, which lead nowhere... hypochodriacal preoccupations, *and a compulsory pondering of somatic feelings and bodily functions, are also common. These often develop in association with a compulsive self-scrutiny which is particularly prone to interfere with physiological activities such as breathing, swallowing and falling asleep...* Such disturbances are specially frequent in patients who lose their sense of spontaneity and in whom self scrutiny and unreality feelings then tend to aggravate one another in a vicious circle."


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## jft (Jan 10, 2005)

I see obseesional thinking (pure obsessional thinking) and rumination going hand in hand with my dp/dr, and even as it realted to my drug abuse, for the drugs had me ruminate more. There is something about pure obsession (doubting) that so similiar to checkers but yet seems so different. I saw the journal writings of Dr. Evan Torch (mid eighties) in alot of your peoples posts regarding obsession and dp/dr. Check his stuff out. I for one feel I spent many years inside my head doubting every move I made and lived in utter fear that I was not good enough in realtion to others and the result was this hypervigalence of my actions and false guilt (Tournier). I think Janine said it well taht after so long the mind can't do this anymore and goes in another direction and thus dp/dr.
What is strange is that over the years I have lsot the majority of my ruminative and pure obseesional thought but I still hold on to dp/dr.
jft


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2005)

What A Fascinating Thread!!

I think that for me I don't obssess about DP either unless I am experiencing it. When I am not experiencing it I generally do not think about it. I can look at the "illusory nature" of my being and of things in spatial/temporal existence from a Philosophical perspective and experience an intellectual sort of detachment from my sense of self or from the substantiality of the objects and things of this world, but as others have said here DP is not so much the thought that is so disturbing but rather it"s the somatic feeling. That holds true for me in any case.

I too when quite young around early adolescense can recall on several occasions going into a darkened laundry room build onto the side of a large garage. I would focus my gaze on some point several feet from my eyes and by staring hard at that point everything else would become unfocussed and sort of disappear from sight and I would feel like I had been vaporized out of existence. Then my eyes would automatically refocus and I would again become embodied. Maybe DP can be seen as a "self sense" out of focus?

Once while I was in jail my surroundings were so awful I began to conciously "Will" a split in my mind. I longed to escape into a "fantasy world". I would pretend I had lost my mind and was really in a "Fairyland" under an "enchantment". It was during this time DP/DR first hit me really hard. And I mean really hard!!

To Dreamer:

That story about the Japanese man reliving the same horrible event of his life over and over in deja vu had me almost on the floor laughing. I know that is horrible of me but couldn't help it. I reminded me of Nietzches "Eternal Re Occurrence" where for eternity we live exactly the same life as this one, and as the same person we are now,in exactly the same way, over and over eternally, and down to the last detail and iota. Humorus in a horrifying sort of way.

john


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## Scattered (Mar 8, 2005)

Orlando: About willing a split in your mind...right on. This is what I was trying to get at, somewhat in a thread in the freudian forum. When you perceive you're surroundings to be horrible, sometimes you try to "allow" insanity to take hold over you. I hate obsessive ruminations. But sometimes I have a feeling of the horror of simply being alive. At these times I'll either will or "allow" myself to slip away into obsessive states and inner fantasies. Its fucked up. I don't know how to get my life back on track, it seems like all I can do is escape.

EDIT: I feel as if I don't accomplish something and regain a sense of control my natural instinct will then be to simply escape via this split. This is what I fear. My own complicity in a mental decline.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2005)

I just posted today about my experience for the first time (the "how do you know you?re not just dreaming too" thread) and finally spoke to a few people about it today, for the first time in my life (1-my best friend, 2-the therapist I've been seeing). Thank you for the existence of this board.

I recognise that there is something highly obsessive about my thought process. I'm either obsessing positively (like trying to make sense of theory... I'm a political science student so I get alot of that) or obsessing negatively (like how do I know what I know is true, how do I know anything, why am I here, if there is no reality would I really die if I died, what would happen if I crossed the street and didn't look... that kind of thought). You could have been thinking about whether to buy green apples or red ones before diving into a whole existential dialogue with yourself... It is sometimes very annoying. Why do I always have to ask why?

Today I told my therapist that I feel as though I'm fully aware of what's going on but I can't do anything to stop it. I explained everything as it is in my mind, for the first time. When I get it, it's like I'm driving a car in downtown rush-hour but the car is in cruise-control. Accidents can happen. It is very scary. Not having control over the "switch" is probably the most difficult aspect of this condition.

I know this isn't psychosis precisely because I'm aware that it's a temporary digression, and I'll get back to doing whatever I was doing before. This seems to be a key factor in determining the difference between psychosis and depersonalization or dissociative symptoms: wether or not the person still actually knows that those thoughts are just a hypothesis about what reality might be, but the experiences you feel during your life are indeed true. I?ve been seeing this psychoanalyst for 6 years and when I told her all this she really listened. She thinks it is very much possible that I?m going through DP right now. I think today?s session was as emotionally draining for me as it was for her.

My question, if I may contribute to this thread by asking it, is which came first, the obsessive thinking or an event that might have triggered a way of looking at things, outside yourself. In other words, were you always like this but just needed something bad to happen to dissociate from yourself, or do you cause yourself to be like this by obsessing over matters that will always be without answer anyway?

As I write this I still wonder if I?m maybe making it up. I can?t believe I?m writing all this. No matter how many analogies I use it?s almost impossible for me to explain what I mean, to myself or anyone.

What is incredible about this disorder to me (if I really have it) is the fact that you are almost always aware of the drifting away... drifting to a place where you see things as a witness. I often comment on how I feel like I'm in a movie, or how a certain event, dinner, party, feels like I'm in a play. Actors keep coming in, the script is written by history, and you have no control over it. It's the oddest feeling to feel like you are only a "participant" in your own story, not an actual person. I notice people who have DP say ?I feel as though I am? a lot instead of ?I am? as though they weren't sure what they felt at all.

Another thing that intrigues me, is that it seems highly obsessive people like myself tend to be highly educated. This disorder seems very akin to what is called in philosophy "cognitive dissonance", a state in which an individual finds him or herself in conflict with two versions of reality: reality as it truly is independent of our thought processes, and reality as we've constructed it. I believe in today?s world there is two realities: the one television shows us, and the one that actually occurs without editing.

It seems that alot of people who have DP obsess over questions of reality. I find that really interesting. There is an air of existentialism to DP. Hume wrote that philosophy (if you see philosophy like me, as a state where you contemplate existence) could be a very negative thing in man?s life. That to spend all your time ?contemplating? on the meaning of existence leads to a life of unexistence. You become detached from yourself. You dissociate from yourself in effect.

I?m fascinated by philosophical questions like ?what is real?, other people probably have other things. Here?s a few examples of how my mind works. I spend so much time obsessing about "reality" that sometimes I?ll look at my arm and suddenly wonder how it is that it is a fully functional limb, in itself. See the switch? Or I ask myself where the voice in my head dictating these words is coming from, switch...how it is that I can see the world before me, switch... what kind of engineering goes into making an eye that can see a million different shades of colour, switch.... I feel like I "jump" from one idea to the other all the time. Everything is very framented.

Usually these kinds of ideas leads to panic, because as I?m asking myself how it is that I am human, and alive in this world, I start thinking ?why the hell am I thinking about this in the first place?. Usually it?s too late, for a few seconds or like today multiple hours I?m in another world where reality is much more difficult to grasp.

I?ve been called an elitist many times for theories I?ve come up with relating to politics in general. How to govern, what is good law, society, man, what is good period. In my world, it?s as though no one really gets that the reality around them is very misleading, except me. This last statement is especially troublesome to me because it implies delusions of grandeure.... But no, I don't think I'm smarter, I just think I'm more in tune with "it". I have no choice to believe this because the alternative is "nancy=nuts"....

I don?t think like this 24/7, but when it does happen it is very intense. I didn?t get to where I am today on masquerade alone. I do have a fully functional brain. But at the same time I feel like I?m such a sham and maybe I am actually going off on the deep end of craziness.

Anyway, those are just some of my thought on the subject. I usually trail off on tangents when I think, so sorry if I moved away from the subject of obsession alone. I am just so full of question now that I feel I?m etching closer to the divide between what?s sane and insane. I feel so very close to "self-breakdown". It?s the scariest place I?ve ever been.

But I?m not insane...

Please continue posting as I am reading everything.

Nancy


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

I haven't looked at this thread in a while. Forgot it is very interesting and confusing.

Nancy I'm glad you found this site. It sounds as if you have DP. I can't say for sure as I don't know you, but it sounds familiar.

Strange thing is people do experience this differently. What I find amazing, and I'm knocking on wood is looking at this as it has spanned my lifetime, from a little girl, to a teen, to a college student, to some terrible years in my 20s and 30s to I think, knock wood, at least functioning better in my 40s.... I'm 46.

What is interesting now is I don't obsess on the existential really much at all. When I was a child, I focused on it A LOT, and as a very young girl, brought on the DP (which as I mentioned wasn't scary) and could "shake it away."

Later the existential thoughts were less bothersome than fears of "disappearing." My mother was a psychiatrist and I was familiar with terms such as schizophrenia, etc., and I never was afraid of "going crazy." I just feared "disappearing" and being completely disabled, like someone in a coma. I had episodes which would leave me completely immobile.

My mother KNEW what was wrong with me, but didn't allow me to get help for years. When I was diagnosed by my first shrink in 1975, I ran home and read this in a psychiatric textbook, and said, "THANK GOD" I am not alone. At that point, perhaps because I'm a doctors' daughter (my father was a surgeon), I saw this as an illness.

Since age 40, after finding the first support board that preceded this, I started realizing that I had "some understanding" of this, and it made it less scary.

Also, I NEVER, NEVER, NEVER tried to "delve into this state" once it took over. I tried everything to avoid the feelings, and frequently that was impossible.

Meds initially helped with that, therapy as well. Now in my 40s, I still have it DP/DR 24/7, but it is, well perhaps less and less limiting. I force myself, and this is more CBT which I really started back in 1999 and continued recently the past for months in group, ... I force myself to simply become as engaged as possible in life.

I hope that somehow, this is "burning itself out." I have read that some mental illness do sort of "burn out" in later life. I have no hopes really of a full recovery, but not worrying about it, makes it less scary. (Sometimes)

Also, I hate to say this, and I use the same sentence over and over, DP/DR can accompany most if not all mental illness, seizure disorders (especially TLE), stroke, brain tumor, etc. (Not necessarily all the time though).

I think this is highly connected to anxiety which also is part and parcel of many mental illnesses, but not everyone here talks about anxiety!

FInally, I hate to say this... but from my long time volunteer work and support group participation with NAMI... I have to say, mental illness, including DP/DR is an "equal opportunity illness" ... not reserved for only the very intelligent.

If those of us here come off as being more intelligent, I'd say it represents a skewing of statistics. How many people have DP, and of those people how many have a computer, and how many are computer literate. We are not a pure representative sample of DPers.

I must say, I don't like glorifying mental illness. It can strike anyone, is terribly disabling, or not so disabling, and people cope in different ways.

But I also don't like stigma. I see this, DP/dR as a neurological disorder I think, mostly ... a perceptual shift. And for me, yes, a bad family environment contributed, but not necessarily as an escape.

ACH, I'm tired today and had something else to say that I forgot.

Glad you found us, though. Nothing worse, NOTHING, than being alone with this. I sought out other DPers for YEARS, without an internet mind you -- I'm 46. Finding fellow sufferers was a relief.

Ah, I also never took a rec drug in my life, so I had no consensual validation of any of these symptoms from friends who experienced this on "trips" etc.

You're not alone.
But I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. (Well I can think of a few people, but never mind.... LOL.... 8)

Best,
D


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## Scattered (Mar 8, 2005)

In reply to n_boucha: Once again..exactly. I mean..exactly. This shit happened to me last night. I was laying down and all of a sudden.."Who am I? Why am I here? Does God exist? Am I going insane? Why am I a human being?" Endless questions. Over and over and over. I always think of these questions but only on occasion fall head on into it. At times like last night these are not simply questions, these ideas now make up my reality. The coherence of the world slowly slips away. But then I got to sleep woke up and felt completely normal. Its the switch. Sometimes I'm just set off, and when I am I feel as if I can NEVER escape, but I always do. I fear for the future, because the world is complicated enough without having to deal with obsession. But as you say, I sometimes do feel as if I'm privy to a look at the world without the gloss that humans put over it, or unedited as you said. Regardless of what it is, I just want to feel safe, secure, and able to live my life.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2005)

Yes. It feels so good to be understood. I never knew so many people experienced this.

Arriving to this website for me has been the realisation that I've not been living my life. I've just been watching it pass. I'm going to be speaking about this to a psychiatrist on Wednesday. I just really hope I'm not told it's going to pass, or it's "depression".

It's not depression. It's not bipolar. It's very dual in nature but it's not something I believe is induced by neurotransmitters gone haywire. I have many thoughts on where this comes from but I'll save my theories for a bit later when I am more calm.

From what I understand, truly psychotic behaviors is not understood by its sufferers as outside the realm of real. I know this is all real, I'm not that "out there" most of the time. I keep to myself and I keep myself in check.

I really need a time out soon. I feel absolutely drained.

Thanks for taking me in all,
Nancy


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2005)

n_boucha. My major was psych, but philosophy and theology were minors. I was almost kicked out of one class for constantly debating the prof on seemingly straight forward issues for I would spin the obvious out to the limit with my obsessional perspective. My nickname in college was "ya but". These classes were a fertile ground for one like me. I thought I was smart, but maybe I was just a quasi smart obsessive. I even remember as a sophomore in high school debating the poor geometry teacher about the truth of geometrical theorms. I think discplines like philosophy are wonderful, but people like me have to know when to say stop when trying to solve the theoretical problems. It is almost like an alcoholic trying to have a social drink. I have learned when my obsession has taken over my thought when engaged in such endeavors. It hurt me to recongnize this as a pathological process in my thinking. I am not at all saying this is you as well, it is jsut your post got me to reminiscing about when I spent so much energy into the metaphysical and beyond. It is jsut amazing how the topics I loved were the ones that had no answers. Well, not totally amazing, makes perfect sense actually, for the goal always was for the search itself and not for the answer. 
jt


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## Scattered (Mar 8, 2005)

Yeah. But its really annoying when an entire thought process is discredited as simply pathology and therefore false or not worthy of pursuing.I think my thoughts are the results of obsession, sure. Its just that regardless of whether or not I'm obsessing I think the thoughts themselves can't simply be ignored as a symptom of mental ilness. These thoughts are real problems that people have struggled with since the beginning of time. I don't think the way to cure this is to simply not think about these things and passively accept what people call "reality." I think it just needs to be undertaken from a different perspective that reduces any suffering caused by it. Or else we can say that any thought that doesn't uphold the status quo or results from accepted beliefs and ideas should be treated as sickness and "cured."


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Scattered said:


> Yeah. But its really annoying when an entire thought process is discredited as simply pathology and therefore false or not worthy of pursuing.I think my thoughts are the results of obsession, sure. Its just that regardless of whether or not I'm obsessing I think the thoughts themselves can't simply be ignored as a symptom of mental ilness. These thoughts are real problems that people have struggled with since the beginning of time. I don't think the way to cure this is to simply not think about these things and passively accept what people call "reality." I think it just needs to be undertaken from a different perspective that reduces any suffering caused by it. Or else we can say that any thought that doesn't uphold the status quo or results from accepted beliefs and ideas should be treated as sickness and "cured."


Dear Scattered, I don't think this is the point. There are many philosophers who examine the concept of reality and consciousness and don't suffer from DP. Timothy Leary and his followers in the 1960s used LSD and various other hallucinogens to "experience true reality" and understand mental illness.

Our suffering is pathological. I have no doubt in my mind.

It's like saying an individual who is schizophrenic and says he is Jesus is giving a "true reality." That is a poor analogy I suppose, but the distortion in reality we experinece I see as pathological. And why don't "healthy" people who experience this for transient periods of time find this "enlightening" and try to reexperience it. They typically can't bring it on. They don't understand it, anymore than they can understand clinical depression, or panic attacks.

I have tried to explain these things to "healthy" people and they say, "But is depression like 'the blues'? That's not such a big deal." Or, "When I get anxious it usually stops once I finish giving my speeches."

I am firm in this belief. Our experience is something to examine in depth obviously. But I don't see it as a gift in the least, and I've had it most of my life. It hasn't helped me in the least, even though I continue to be inquisitive and love studying many topics, including psychology, anthropology, religion, etc.

I highly suggest the current issue of Scientific American Mind. It delves into some of these issues.

Peace,
d


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## Scattered (Mar 8, 2005)

Well the point wasn't to say that DP was a gift. The point is to say that it is dangerous, in my mind, to treat existential ruminations as pathology and try to stop them. This is tantamount to saying that existential ideas that cause suffering are the manifestation of an illness and should be treated. Well I could say that religion is a pathology and should be treated because its inherently irrational and causes the suffering of many who are murdered in its name. But that would be ridiculous. There were many philosophers who were obsessive, anxiety-ridden, or borderline insane yet we still accept their ideas. There are many painters, singers, movie directors, authors who were drug addicted lunatics. Yet we still accept their ideas. And we should, because in alot of instances regardless of the conditions that brought on their ideas, we can still recognize the inherent worth of the ideas themselves.

If DP is a 24/7 horror-show for you then you can make the decision to take the steps you need to take to either cure it, or lessen its impact. You can choose to do what you have to do to not obsess. But when you begin to impinge on others experience of reality, and with completely pure aims try to "cure" those people of their ruminations or try to discredit them, then I think you've taken the idea of pathology to far. Its really not too far a step before we begin to "cure" people of ideas that do not mesh well with our own view.

However, you might be right. Maybe we shouldn't try to propagate these pathological views. In which case I'll have to burn alot of the books on my bookshelf that were written by "sick" people. I'll have to get rid of alot of the music I listen to because perhaps the artists took psychosis-mimicking halluncinogenic drugs, and their views of society are simply the result of a sick and deluded mind.

I have no problem with people doing what they have to do to stop DP. But I disagree, existential thoughts are not simply the symptoms of an illness. The reason why "normal" people can't bring them on is because they don't expose themselves to the conditions necessary to experience them. If I lived a normal life then I would never experience existential thoughts. I would simply accept my reality without thinking about it because of the myriad of distractions that would be at my fingertips. Taking a cold hard look at reality can induce suffering and depression. If some people choose not to look to far into it then fine. But I don't understand how my close scrutiny of reality is a sign that I'm mentally ill.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2005)

Scattered. I share your last thought, and in fact was trying to be careful when I posted to not dismiss all philosphical thought by obsessives as illness. I have a great time discussing theology/philosophy etc with others. But there comes a point with me (I am only talking about me) when I recognize it is not healthy. And I think the unhealthy dynamic kicks in when I quit looking for answers or solutions and jsut want to argue or spin out the discussion. An example of this is that I have two boxes full of theological/philosophical and self scrutiny insight journals I wrote in for many years. To this day I have no faith, have not solved any philosophical dilemnas, or personlly come to any type of self actualization. I accumulated data and made self observation and had insights, but it never led anywhere, at least not significantly in relation to the effort expended. I made alot of commotion, but put no bricks in the wall. I lived for questions, not for answers.

It did indeed hurt me to discover that much of my truth searching was not pure philosophical endeavor. In my case it was in part pathological, never to find answers, only ask questions and DOUBT (key word) the answers given. But for most others and for the discipline in general, I am not even remotely saying that it is pathological. (But I have no doubt that Kierkegaard had a touch of obsession, but his greatness redeemed the occasion)

What I am saying is that yes it was very disturbing for me to see my seeming honest endeavors to find answers had in part illness at its core, but at the same time when I found I could "let it go" instead of spinning my head into metaphysical oblivion I was much better off for it. And when my best friend reminds me as I get close to the obsessive edge in these discussions, I feel dissed and almost scared, but it is reality...for me. My thoughts are always welcomed by my friends and they still look to me as smart in these areas, but they no longer call me "ya but". And I find that comforting.
JT


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## Scattered (Mar 8, 2005)

Thats good. I'm not advocating a cultivation of obsessive thoughts that may lead to mental illness. I'm not saying its a good or bad thing. I'm just trying to make a clearer distinction. The ideas themselves are not the problem, they shouldn't be looked at as a problem. The REACTION to those ideas can be a problem. You should try to control your emotions and your reactions to your ideas so you don't suffer. Try not to get to "into it" and allow yourself an escape route so you dont end up panicking or freaking out. It just angers me sometimes when people who honestly look at the world and find a lack of meaning are discredited because of pathology. I mean I can systemically discredit many thinkers and say that all their ideas were the result of some character flaw or mental defect, but whats the point? If its mental illness then address the persons reactions, not the ideas. If you're going to address the ideas themselves then address them on their own terms and don't use the mental illness cop out to eradicate entire arguments.

In the end there may be no answers or there may be. I don't know. I just dont think a person should ever be told to stop questioning their reality and the contents of that reality for some form of passive acceptance.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2005)

Perhaps contemplation of reality is indeed pathological. Perhaps this is why man made Church... so we'd stop wasting time trying to understand something we'll never be able to explain and accept a pre-packaged explanation of what is beyond us.

This is a very interesting conversation, especially when you have background in philosophy and anthropology or politics.

I agree with the concept that there are two realities, the one which we see, independent of our thought processes, and the one society constructs. Language, op-ed artefacts as examples of that. Can we deny that written history is in fact more of a story than a full account of events that took place? I could _empirically_ prove that "another" reality exists by studying the winners and loosers account of the event. 

I don't see that wanting to understand that reality behind society and constructs can be something truly pathological in itself. However, I have to ask myself how man's ability to do this is really of any use to him when we know that survival dictates to live life, not stand still and contemplate it.

Perhaps there are variations. I know that the way I analyse things is highly obsessive, but this can also be, some would argue, the mark of a good scientist... at least a less biased one. When you always doubt that you aren't plugged into the "real" reality, you tend to try to look at the multiple factors. You tend not to accept absolute explanations. You tend to adopt a holistic approach which is very much akin to what ancient Greek might have called theory. After all, theory is derived from theos, God. Theory in its original sense meant to contemplate upon the creation of a supreme order (not necessarily God as understood by believers), to see it as it really truly is. To see reality as it truly is, you have to take man's creation out of it. Perhaps this leads to taking yourself out of it too, when this thinking goes to far and becomes pathological.

We have many questions.

We also know we have limits. The difference between psychosis and DP (or cognitive dissonance as philosophy might call it... I'm still working on the links between these two concepts), is that we are very much aware that this kind of thinking is unusual and that we should be on our guard. Postitive reality-testing... If you recognise society's reality as well as the one you're trying to piece together, the real one perhaps, you are not psychotic. Psychosis requires the individual not to be aware that his ideas are outside the norm.

Keep writing, I'm reading 

Nancy


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## theatreSpell (Jan 18, 2006)

hi,

well, not much has been posted on this thread, but i'm pretty new, just joined and i think all of you are definately on to something about the relation between DP and obsession. i found another forum on this and someone mentioned there that the condition could be a result of a 'cortico disconnection'. i need to research that. 
i think it's helpful to think of this condition as a chemical inbalance in the brain, something real and physical actually happening in your brain.
i haven't had dp for 5/6 years and then last week i got very high on weed. i totaly forgot about dp, it's been such a long time for me. i totaly dismissed it in my mind, but last week because of weed i was on the verge of a massive dp attack. i was on the verge. i knew the warnging signs and feared it was gonna hit me, but managed to pull back. in the past the episodes would last 2 or 3 days and go away and then come back half a year later. this time it lasted for about 3 hours, fortunately.
what i'm trying to say is that - i realised that my dp (and then also dr) mental states were brought on by weed. to realise that was very important because now i know that this condition has a trigger, it has a cause, it's not something that appears out the blue as we often think, it is something happening in you brain which makes it overfocus on certain thoughts.
it is well known that weed brings out your underlying moods, tendencies and mental 'problems'. as i learned i'm not very good with weed. my body takes more than a week to get rid of thc, so if i do it every week, it builds up. and that's what happened. i had too much thc in my system, what it did was trigger things that i am predisposed too. 3 days after my original high i noticed i still wasn't myself and i was hyperfocusing on things. at first it felt great because i felt smart and had more energy than i usually do. the problem is - i didn't actually have more energy than usual since i was barely eating anything and barely sleeping. what happened was, my mind was thinking that i was fine, while i wasn't. my mind was not receptive to body sensations like it normally is. thc had made me feel so numb that i disgerarded all feelings of fatige and hunger. as the week went on i started to feel progressively worse. i was hyperfocusing on everything, most dangerously on my own thoughts. and because i was under the influence on this chemical i couldn't just tell myself- ok, i'm tired, i should stop thinking these wierd thoughts. because my mind felt separated from my body i actually believed the thoughts that i was having. i now realise that the drug brought out one of my traits - obsessiveness. i obsessed over my thoughts, i couldn't leave them alone. normally, i'd recognise that i'm getting caried away, but here because weed numbed me down so that i felt no fatigue i thought i felt fine, and i thought that was i was thinking was absolutely valid, including my thoughts of my own non-existence. it didn't help that i was reading existentialist literature at the point, because existentialists ask exactly those kinds of questions - how can i exist? why? etc... needless to say i was Very scared of the thoughts i was having, because i was beleiveing in them 
someone wrote earlier in this thread:
To IMAGINE dp is to BE dp.

that's the trap about this condition. there is a definate disconnect between the mind and the body when you're in that state, and because you don't have that normal reassurance from the body that tells you - i am tired, i am exhausted, you tend to beleive what your brain is telling you, you THINK you feel fine, but that is not actually what is happening to you. You THINK that reality does not exist, you THINK that you don't exist, but thinking doesn't make it so. because your brain in a way blocks imput from your body you become trapped inside your brain, and the horror and terror that you feel inside is actually an example of your brain realising that something is not right. the brain cannot handle feeling separated from the body, when the normal connection is gone the brain starts freaking out. the bodily signs of fatigue manifest themselves in the brain and the brain solely, the brain is so drained and pushed to the extreme that it can no longer think straight. i enterpret it as obsession pushed to the extreme, when you cannot reason with yourself any longer, but you're desparately trying to do so because you still don't FEEL tired(while you ACTUALLY are).
i guess it would make sense why our 'normal' friends don't understand that kind of thinking, because they have that healthy connection between body and mind.
so dp is obsessiveness going overboard, because it doesn't even back down to fatigue. very intense.
while i totaly went thru hell again last week because of weed, i think it was actually beneficial because now that thc is pretty much gone from my body and i am feeling more normal again, i actually realise that that kind of mental state has a cause, it is NOT the ultimate reality, it is a trick of the brain.


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