# do you think we have to give up alcohol in order to get well



## jc (Aug 10, 2004)

theres lots of debates on here about alcohol,in excess it is destructive as ive found out on many occasions(thankfully no-more) but do you think that we have to abstain completely from alcohol in order to get better ?
ive read on here that some people have one drink and they are messed up for weeks,with me i suppose alcohol affects me for about 3 days after a big session but do you think we/ are holding back our full health by drinking

all the best

jc


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Hi JC

Alcohol is a depressant and does affect brain chemistry. I think there can be a knock on effect emotionally and repeated binge drinking is definetely no good for someones state of mind. It is a drug after all!! On top of that, it puts the liver under pressure which is probably struggling already with the toxic world we live in (bad food, medications, tobacco, illicit drugs, caffeine, pollutions, chemicals in water and so on and so on). I think if you are in the state of mind such as DP, I personally don't think it is wise to drink alcohol at all, until you get to a stage where it will not effect you so much. It is unfortunate, but the question you have to ask yourself is. Do you value your health or relaxation with alcohol?

Just my point of view
Regards

Jeremy


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## jft (Jan 10, 2005)

I have heard lots of debate on this too, in books or in the docs office or wherever. Seems some folks hate booze because it is a vice just like most hate tobacco. It is easy to target booze. Makes sense that it could hinder full mental health for us. And yes it causes bad dp/dr in the hangover stage, and yes in excess it is evil, and yes it does not mix well with meds (but in occasional moderation is not bad according to my former psychiatrist..unless you are on seroquel or something). And yes it can become a negative in operant conditioning and in emotional processing and general maturing if it is used too often.

But... I have interesting enough done a few experiments over the years to see if it really made a difference if I totally abstained. Five different times I was in total abstinence. The first time was five years long, subsequesntly were periods of 1 year or 6 months. I can honestly say that it mattered nothing in terms of reduction in symptoms, in fact it made them worse it seemed in those times a cold beer and the ability to transcend these symptoms and life for a while was not an option.

I am not advocating booze at all for us, (self medication can be long road) I only say that I pooh pooh those (especially docs) that see alcohol as the devil.
I think generalizations play a part by docs, as well as their therapeutic guidlines. They do not want "mentally ill" people drinking no matter what. I will never forget going to a ballgame while in one of my experiments and saw the doc who told me alchohol was evil, sloshed, shit faced and seven sheets to the wind and abusing the umpire. Apparantly it was evil for her. And alcohol is evil for many people. But I do not think it should be generalized that it is for all of us, even us with dp/dr.

jft


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

I agree w/jft's statement on the whole.

But I will say there seem to be many here who self-medicate with alcohol.

For me, taking a drink BRINGS ON DP/DR. Makes it very bad or rather it used to. These days, taking one drink, I enjoy, but it give me a "hangover" later, or the next morning.

My doctors have said to me, a drink isn't going to kill me, but don't overdo it, but they already know I don't overdo it.

For me, personally, alcohol has never been good for me.

I'd say it's not good to mix alcohol and meds simply for safety's sake.

But I agree that abstinence doesn't mean any symptom will go away, especially anxiety.

JC, to you personally though... your drinking worries me a bit as it goes to such excess sometimes and makes you so miserable. You also inquire about it a lot here. But I don't know you. I know you're very anxious, and my guess is you self-medicate too much sometimes and it bites you in the butt.

No easy answer as I see it.

And what helped me the most are meds that would knock out a horse. I can't drink, but I can tolerate high doses of meds that would put someone else to sleep in five minutes.

Go figure.

Different people, different metabolisms, brains, etc., etc., etc.


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## jc (Aug 10, 2004)

i agree dreamer alcohol does make me miserable and it makes me a hell of alot more anxious,i know it does this to me but after 2 weeks of not drinking(which is now the norm) i just feel so damn isolated and bored,i miss my friends and i feel like ive been in a bubble for 2 weeks..... i find it hard very hard to stay in at weekends ........ it seems we have a choice go out have a few drinks and a few laughs and jokes and then feel like crap for a few days or stay in like a hermit ....

its not easy


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

I think its the same with every aspect of life that it comes down to balance and moderation. A couple of drinks a week will definetely not cause problems. Its when it starts getting out of hand is when you need to think, can I trust myself to be balanced and consume in moderation, or at this time should I just be a complete tee-totaller. For myself, I didnt trust that I could be balanced and as a result went tee-total. Now when I go out for a drink with friends or to a restaurant, I only have the one drink and that suits me just fine. Gone are the days of alcohol excess and horrible hangovers, anxiety and panic attacks. There is no way that I want to be back in that horrible place 

I do feel for you though JC, especially living in a country such as the UK. It is very hard to pass up the drinking culture, especially if you have grown up with it, and everyone else is doing it.

Jeremy


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

I notice improvement when I take long breaks from drinking - I went 8 straight months without drinking - and was recovered for the last 6 of them.

However I do not think it is necessary to completely stop drinking as seems to be the consensus in this thread. Drinking just isn't for me - Not my thing - that doesn't have as much to do with DP as it just makes me feel shitty overall - i get anxious when im drunk, I feel HORRIBLE mentally and physically when drunk, and I hateee the taste of alcohol (though that hasn't stopped me from drinking it in hazardous amounts at times before ).

If you enjoy alcohol and aren't prone to abusing it - some drinks are fine. If you don't enjoy it - or begin to abuse it when using it - Just stop.


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

JC, my dear,

As long as I have been on this site is as long as you have been battling with alcohol. This is not going to be a newsflash for you but...

You and alcohol don't mix.

Doesn't really matter if it mixes with anyone else here. YOU suffer because of it. YOUR homelife suffers because of it. Part of maturing is realising this fact about yourself. It just doesn't work for you, my friend.

Now that is the truth. You can keep banging your head against the wall as long as you need to.

I think the world of you and I hope you get past this as it is one of the biggest things that keeps you down, in my ever so humble opinion.

Really best and warmest regards,
terri


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## freesong (Dec 26, 2005)

Ditto Jeremy!!


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## none (Dec 29, 2005)

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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Jc, you know the answer. Everything in moderation. If I have a glass of wine, or enough to make me feel relaxed without the horrors of an impending hangover, I am fine. If I throw myself into a barrel of gin, then of course, it makes things much, much worse.

Should we be prudes? Should we give up everything? Life is short. Anyway, I don't think alcohol is the 'root' of your problems mate, and you know that too.


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## widescreened (Jun 22, 2005)

you already know the answer to this one.the day after a bender can be as bad as if you are comming down off a drug of any kind.if you find yourself in this situation promising yourself you will never drink again and a week later,fooling yourself into believing that the last hangover was a one off or a fluke that wont happen again,this is the time to run a mile from it.
it takes alcohol 3 days to leave the system.3 days of desperation.life is too short.


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

jc said:


> theres lots of debates on here about alcohol,


...over half of which are started by you. 

JC, as you well know, we all have different bodies, tolerance levels, brain chemistry, etc. But i'll tell you again how alcohol effects me in regards to DP/anxiety, etc.

I drink a lot...maybe 750 ml. of wine on a weeknight and 1.5 L. on friday and/or saturday. Sometimes, when i exceed this limit or mix it with beer i'll feel more anxious than usual the next day, and if i mope around the house doing nothing that day it can have devastating effects on my mood and anxiety. My DP, in short, will be exacerbated on those dark days.

However, this happens rarely and only after _excessive_ drinking the night before (actually, even more important than "excessive drinking" is unfamiliar drinking...ie. if i confine myself only to wine i can usually drink an obscene amount without feeling anything but sprightly the next day...however, if i stray into unfamiliar territory, mixing it up with other drinks, or even just drinking, for example, beer all by itself, it will have a much more debilitating effect.

So, in short, while i'm sure this is doing an incalcuable amount of damage to me physically, mentally it doesn't effect me much. Of course, i exercise just about every day (and certainly a day after drinking a lot to get the ol' serotonin moving) and i eat a lot of fruit most days and very little food that would be considered bad for one. So maybe that has something to do with it.

In any case, I would submit that one can comfortably drink and live a DP-free life at the same time. Of course that's just one man's opinion.

Good luck,

s.


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

I think one can live with dp/dr and drink in moderation, too.

But as you stated above, Sebastian, JC is the one who usually 
brings this up. JC is the one who continually has a problem with
it. UK or not, it just doesn't seem to work for him.

IMHO, of course.


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## jft (Jan 10, 2005)

Jc. From what folks have responded I see you have a history with the spirits. I guess I have too. But what I want to add is what my shrink explained to me a few years ago. She did her Phd in chemical dependency,. After I had gone in for a outside cd assessment at her request, and of course I flunked (I think a nun who only drank wine at Mass on Sunday would flunk one of those) I came back to her expecting to be told to abstain my whole life. She did not. She saw my tendency to like control, she saw i liked to call the personal shots, she saw my obsessive natures. She saw that I saw options never as black and white and thus my skepticism and doubt in my personality. She saw that I could make judgements based on legitmate pros and cons.

She went on to say there are differing models of alcoholism. She said that really only ten pecent of labeled alchies are true alchies. After they (the 90%) are "mislabeled" in a sense and told they only have one option, to abstain, most inevitably fail because they have lost power over their lives. ( She said only 10% of AA folks follow through succesfully with that program). Also they do not beleive it. Also they are focused onto what they cannot have. She knew I could not do that. So we talked instead of rational options. Pros and cons. But no black and white thinking. It was real easy to decifer what was good and what was bad for me and it was left up to me to choose to stay away from the bad. And I did. I still use alcohol, but I know when it will bite me and when it does not. I do not know if my doc was right, but it worked for me.

But, for those 10% who are true alchies, according to her, they do have to abstain. No choice but to abstain. They indeed have lost their battle with booze. She also saw real potential for psychological alcoholism/ dependency as at some time becoming as out of bounds as physical addiction. So here again, abstinance.

I like the idea of making my own choice over my life as I see it. This choice could indeed involve abstinance. Or it may not not. But it is still my choice. I just need to decide what is best for me. But as far as dp/dr goes, my symptoms are not affect either way.
jft


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

I don't know about anyone else but alcohol makes my dp/dr and anxiety much worse. I used to be a really heavy drinker a few years back and after a few drinks id generally be more anxious then when i was sober. This would leed to me drinking a whole bottle of whiskey or vodka and then my anxiety went away. When id get really wasted my dp/dr would get so bad that i almost felt ouside myself. It was almost like a pcp effect.

Nowadays i cant even have a few drinks without totally screwing up my head so i have pretty much written off alcohol altogether. Even 2 or 3 beers makes my dp/dr and anxiety much worse and it also makes me depressed now. So in order for me to stay healthy and sane ive had to totally stop drinking.


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## walkingdead (Jan 28, 2006)

I am just the opposite of most here. My DP came on when I had STOPPED drinking and smoking pot. Then when it hit me I lost all desire and became numb to the effects of both. Lately I have drank a couple of times, but I get no good feeling at all and have no desire to keep drinking. I must force myself to drink. And it has no effect on my unrelenting, unchanging DP at all.


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## daveplanet (Aug 24, 2004)

jc,

I think I know what you are talking about (at the very least I appreciate Brendon Benson, still making my mind up about The Raconteurs). Moderation means jack shit on a friday night when you're weeks
been living hell and you're friends are out. In contrast to many of the respondents to your post my dp is actually more tolerable when i'm hungover. Go figure. I'm no alcoholic but could not dodge the accusation of binge drinking (I am in no way proud of this). My weekends keep me alive. Would heartily recommend a Flaming Lips gig to remind you how good life is/could be/should be.


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## livinginhell333 (Feb 19, 2005)

i can't fully feel the effects of alcohol, unless i drink a lot. beer doesn't seem to do anything, even if i have like 4 or 5 nothing really, hard liquor does a little bit, the only good thing is that i never feel hungover the next day because i feel nothing at all, so i can't get headaches or anything, but still it makes me feel abnormal.


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## walkingdead (Jan 28, 2006)

Once again, Livinginhell, I can totally relate. I have been able to faintly feel a little subltle change, but that's about it. And I do not get the next day headache anymore. But I have only drank about 3 times in two years and when I do I have to make myself take every drink. No craving or good taste at all. It is seemingly physically impossible but true.


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## Dreamland (Jun 1, 2005)

If you're a DP/anxiety/depression sufferer....DON'T drink! I had two beers last night after a long hiatus from alcohol and I felt like crap this morning. I'm convinced that alcohol is poison. Two beers is my limit.


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## jc (Aug 10, 2004)

well it seems that alcohol is an issue for all of us... i myself went out friday night(got up and sang kareoke) and i went out yesterday and watched the football,today i feel pretty anxious but no more anxious than when im living an alcohol free week.... i agree i did have a problem with booze and the fact is i was drinking the very stuff that i shouldnt (wine) and i was drinking alot of it but those days are over.... but i have to be totally honest and say that the only thing that has ever taken away my dp 100% is alcohol,some might think thats a terrible thing for anyone to say but i can only tell the truth,this is why i do ask alot of questions about booze,yes in excess its a dangerous thing but i speak on msn to a few dper,s and most will drink 8 cans of strong beer a night but they dont come on here and mention it..............

it just seems that alcohol can be a cure and a problem


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## jc (Aug 10, 2004)

oh and daveplanet i personally think the raconteurs album is the nutzs


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## walkingdead (Jan 28, 2006)

JC if the only time I was DP free was when I drank alcohol, I would be drunk all the time.


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## none (Dec 29, 2005)

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## frony (Apr 2, 2006)

Unknown said:


> Alcohol is a poison.
> 
> I don't do anything since I got DPD.
> 
> ...


Well it's bit off topic, but I have to react to the point where you say alchohol contains ethanol. Ethanol IS alchohol, chemists just love naming the same thing with a bunch of different names.


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## jft (Jan 10, 2005)

Jc. You are an honest person. In my post I said that booze did not affect my symptoms in general, i.e. abstaining did not reduce symptoms, but booze does indeed wipe out a bad dp/dr episode. It IS the only thing that has been effective for me, that and sleep. This is the honest thing to say for me, and for you. If the secondary effects were not so bad it would be listed in the treatment guidlines as better than any pharmacuetical, for some of us anyway. I feel what it does though is transcends dp/dr for the time the alcohol is in the system. The dp/dr is replaced by a buzz, so we are not "normal healthy" while three beered. Three beers is the cure. No doubt for me. I often have conjectured that a vast number of us on this board have the same experience.
jft


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Hi again JC.

I agree with Walking Dead...if 8 beers were the cure, I'd be drinking them everyday myself. You have always been totally honest. I hope
you realized the comments about you being the one to ask questions about alcohol were written in a semi-teasing way. You have worked so
hard at getting yourself in a good place. If it works for you, like you say,
then who's to say it's not an okay way? Now, alcoholism, that is kind of
not an okay way. :shock: 

You sound okay with yourself. I hope your feeling continues.

Take care,
terri

p.s. Upon rereading, I realise my word of the day must be - okay. Okay?
The older I get the more my writings are totally disorganised. I hate that part.


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## none (Dec 29, 2005)

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## freesong (Dec 26, 2005)

Hello!!! Toxins again!!! I don't mean to sound like a bitchy broken record but sheesh...... Our bodies were made to function with good (organic) food, oxygen, water(clean of toxins) and exercise and sleep. If we have true conditions that have to be treated, then only in certain situations should we need or want any kind of drug (ie. alcohol, nicotine, toxic mind-altering) substance. Drugs, alcohol, nicotine, hash, marijuana, etc. mood altering/mind altering. Prozac, depakote, etc. mood altering/mind altering. ETC. There are situations that demand some help of course but let a WISE doctor or counselor help us. Find the truth regarding all substances before embarking on the journey I have been on. I have some sort of thing that my doc does not want to address because he wants me to stay sick and coming back to him so he can continue to get my money. ( this is my allopath but many other kinds are same) I am having to research on my own and take care of myself because I took Xanax for 23 years for something that is truly wrong but they did not have enough knowledge or care to find years ago. I have spent a fortune on doctors and psychologists etc. They are PRACTISING medicine at our expense many times. In the area of experimenting with street drugs we are looking for medication to make us feel better because we have sickness and want out of pain. For those who take drugs to lower their consciences to do bad things, I am not sure what to say but I think even in those cases, they are sick and seeking a way to escape pain. Back to basics and natural for the most part are my steps at present. Good luck.


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## jc (Aug 10, 2004)

alcohol will take away my dp, but continued use of alcohol makes me really misserable................and i find that i lack energy and nothing seems to get done,so what goes up must come down.on the subject of being drunk all of the time if alcohol takes away the dp,i suppose this is why so many of the mentally ill self medicate and to be honest i havnt got the constitution(thankfully) 3 nights out on the beer and usually on the 4th day even the smell of booze makes me feel like i want to chuck.......
everyone has there demons but whats worse going out and having a few beers and chatting to people or sitting infront of this machine buying up all the latest wonder pills and talking about this shitty illness


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

JC, have you tried switching to wine? I know this sounds somewhat dubious but i think there's a big difference between a wine buzz and a beer buzz...the former being much more agreeable. You might find that a couple of glasses a night takes the edge off and you may get to the point where on the weekends you'll prefer drinking copious amounts of wine as opposed to beer. Seriously, i don't know why, but i'm often depressed if i drink a lot of beer, but wine simply doesn't effect me the same way, except to make me happy and giddy...like a little japanese schoolgirl.

s.


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## jc (Aug 10, 2004)

hi sebastian
i had to stop drinking wine as i renamed it 'rocketfuel' it really didnt agree with me one little bit,i cannot even bring myself to smell the stuff horrible horrible


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