# Dear God



## jimmyb

Please make me well again...


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## Guest

Fuck God mayne, eh wont heal shit, he dont exist


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## Cam

It is not so much believing in god, but believing in yourself.

I do believe there is a higher power of sorts, however I don't believe it is a white man in a white robe that continually says "SILENCE" :mrgreen:


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## Guest

Higher power is non conscious and non intelligent and is called mother nature


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## Cam

> Higher power is non conscious and non intelligent and is called mother nature


Then it should be called "mother-inlaw nature". :mrgreen:


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## ihavemessedupdreams

if there is a god why wont he help me my whole 20 years has been nothing but a curse


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## LOSTONE

> if there is a god why wont he help me my whole 20 years has been nothing but a curse


You can find some information about why God allows suffering by reading this article.

Why Does God Allow Us to Suffer?
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20030101/article_01.htm

jimmyb

Keep praying.

Even if it seems as if God is not answering all your prayers. Keep praying because God does hear you. He does want you to be happy.

The bible says he even wants for you to live forever on a paradise earth!

Don't give up in praying and pouring your heart out to God. He does hear you and he also cares about you, I can assure you of this. He even sent his son to his death in order to save your life, that is how much love God has for you. Keep praying and keep positive, things don't always have to be as bad as they are right now.


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## AllmindnoBrain

I never understood that, then again i am not religious at all. How does a few days of physical agony compare to the sins of billions. I would prefer a few years of physical agony over the amount of psychological pain i have suffered am im doing this all in vain, plus i thought we were all gods children, what makes christ so special? I admire your faith yet at the same time im so far off from believing in a being that actually listens and cares for us, it just sounds so absurd, what reason did your god have for creating us and placing us here, and even if i believed we were some manifestation/creation of some higher being that still doesnt give me any purpose, i really dont mean any disrespect by this though. I have a question for you, if the appearance of the existance of the very first atom in the universe was somehow scientifically explained, would you still believe in god?


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## LOSTONE

> if the appearance of the existance of the very first atom in the universe was somehow scientifically explained, would you still believe in god?


Yes.
Just because science is able to understand how we may have came into existence does not mean that we did not come into existence.

This universe was obviously designed and so were we. Science may be able to understand some of the basic workings of the universe and the basic workings of the lifeforms here on earth but this does not disprove God.

Most of science is in a way glorifying God because it shows us that God's creations are actually much more complex and amazing then we used to think.

The only problem with science is the dogma that says that design does not have a designer. That is pretty absurd actually.



> what reason did your god have for creating us and placing us here


He put us here because he was motivated out of love to create other lifeforms.



> and even if i believed we were some manifestation/creation of some higher being that still doesnt give me any purpose


You would find purpose if you really knew who God was. God has work for his people to be doing. God did not create us to just sit around. God knows what we need in order to enjoy life and he is providing that for us.

For now the purpose we have is in knowing that we are able to make God's heart rejoice with happiness. I think that is the best purpose we could have.

These are Jehovah's own words. 
*Pr 27:11
Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me. *

So we humans are actually able to make God's figurative heart rejoice!
I think that gives us a lot of purpose.



> How does a few days of physical agony compare to the sins of billions


Actually the suffering that Jesus endured was not payment for our sins. His death was all that was needed. His suffering served another purpose. It was God's answer to Satan's taunts. Satan has raised the issue many times saying that no man would remain loyal to God while being put under pressure. Jesus proved Satan to be a lier when he went through all his pain and then died for us and for Jehovah.

The death of Jesus covers over our sin in a simple way. 
God's law states that the wages sin pays is death. So someone has to die.

The sin of Adam and Eve has spread to all of us. At birth we are all already sinners. We are the offspring of sinners, all of us are. So the entire human race is deserving of death according to God's law. But God has allowed us to continue living for many different reasons. The main reason is because of the issues that Satan raised against Jehovah. These issues must be settled once for all time.

God also allowed Adam and Eve to produce children and continue living because of God's purpose for the human race. God's purpose for the earth was for humans to populate it and subdue it.

Ge 1:28
Further, God blessed them and God said to them: ?Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.?

God's purpose will be fulfilled. The only way for God to make his plans possible would be for him to provide the payment for our sins. That payment does not require billions of deaths. It only requires the death of one perfect man. Since it was the sin of one perfect man that made all of us into sinners, it is the perfect sacrifice of Jesus that is able to make payment for that sin.

The reason Jesus is special is not only because he is a creation of Jehovah. Indeed we are all Jehovah's creations. But Jesus is special because the bible calls him the only begotten son of God. 
Jesus was the only direct creation of Jehovah. All of everything else that has been created was created through Jesus. Basically Jehovah gave Jesus the plans for all other creation and then Jesus went carrying out those plans. So that is one reason Jesus is special. Jesus is also special in that he existed before all other creation and therefor has a specially close relationship with Jehovah God.

Jesus and Jehovah God existed together for untold billions of years before humanity was even brought into existence.

Anyone who is following Jesus teachings and accepting his sacrifice is considered a child of God, but Jesus is considered the only begotten son of God because thats who he is.

AllmindnoBrain I understand why it is hard for you to believe in God.

You may want to try praying anyway. Just think about the possibility that God does exist. Take a few moments to think about that. Look up at the stares please and think about how much higher God really is above us if he does exists. Then pray to him humbly and maybe he will help you to see who he is.

You may find it hard to believe in God but do you really feel that you know for sure that he does not exist? If you feel that you do not know for sure then why don't you try praying for awhile? What would it hurt? If there is no God then nobody will be around to hear your prayer and all that will happen is that you will have wasted a few moments of your time.

Just think about what you have to gain though if your creator is watching you and listening to your prayer!

You may gain everlasting life on a paradise earth simply by showing God a few moments of your time. And maybe you will even figure out the meaning of life.

It is up to you though.

I once found it very hard to believe in God but I was not sure one way or the other. I did not know if God existed or not. So one night I spent hours praying to God and begging him to answer me. I begged and begged him to let me know if he really does exist and what he wants from me. Eventually my prayer was answered and now I have no doubts about God's existence.

Jehovah God is the revealer of secrets and he is willing to reveal himself toward those who are searching for him.


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## yogurt

Dear god,
Hope you got the letter,
And I pray you can make it better down here.
I dont mean a big reduction in the price of beer,
But all the people that you made in your image,
See them starving on their feet,
cause they dont get enough to eat

From god,
I cant believe in you.

Dear god,
Sorry to disturb you,
But I feel that I should be heard loud and clear.
We all need a big reduction in amount of tears,
And all the people that you made in your image,
See them fighting in the street,
cause they cant make opinions meet,
About god,
I cant believe in you.

Did you make disease, and the diamond blue?
Did you make mankind after we made you?
And the devil too!

Dear god,
Dont know if you noticed,
But your name is on a lot of quotes in this book.
Us crazy humans wrote it, you should take a look,
And all the people that you made in your image,
Still believing that junk is true.
Well I know it aint and so do you,
Dear god,
I cant believe in,
I dont believe in,

I wont believe in heaven and hell.
No saints, no sinners,
No devil as well.
No pearly gates, no thorny crown.
Youre always letting us humans down.
The wars you bring, the babes you drown.
Those lost at sea and never found,
And its the same the whole world round.
The hurt I see helps to compound,
That the father, son and holy ghost,
Is just somebodys unholy hoax,
And if youre up there youll perceive,
That my hearts here upon my sleeve.
If theres one thing I dont believe in...

Its you,
Dear god.


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## LOSTONE

yogurt those are the lyrics of someone who is very confused about who is ruling over this world.

*Jehovah God is not ruling over this world. *

*Jehovah God is not responsible for what is taking place here.*

Humanity has went against Jehovah God.

If humanity would have obeyed Jehovah God then we would be under God's protection and this would be a paradise.

WE are the ones with the problem.

That is what so many people fail to realize.

God has nothing to do with this world right now. 
His dealings with this world are very minimal. Most all of what is going on here is a result of our own actions.


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## AllmindnoBrain

that poem above was great. I used to pray in my youth, One time i prayed to god to give me an A on my math test and i if you havent guessed, i didnt get that A, praying did nothing but limit me. From that point on i made the decision that in order to succeed i would have to depend on myself and not hope some higher power would rescue me, (this was a self taught lesson, please dont say this was gods answer to my prayer). God is responsible for our existance, he created us, therefore any pain we suffer he is responsible for as well because if he didnt place us here we would not be experiencing that hardship, a crackhead mother gives birth to a deformed child who is capable of experiencing nothing but suffering, this child has no means for growth and the mind power to fathom the idea of god, this is gods responsibility for he created this poor child. Soon enough we are going to find definitive evidence that there is lifeform on planets other than earth, if this is so how does this fit into gods plan? The fact that god envisioned a human race and then built us makes me feel no more important than a barbie doll manufactured in China. But we have free will to live this life we have been granted by god however we please, and i dont believe in god based on a strong gut feeling and careful deliberation, but if we need the belief in god in order to live a fulfilled life then my free will is flawed in not 
ALLOWING me to believe in god, in a way disproving the existance of free will for i CANT believe in god hence i have no choice in the matter. I am trying to understand you and see things how you see but i can not, i am not being close minded and biased and still can't believe in god. How do you explain evolution? If god does exist, what was his reason for inventing us?


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## LOSTONE

That was a song by XTC called "Dear God"



> If god does exist, what was his reason for inventing us?


Love.

From our viewpoint it is very easy to be confused about things. It seems like our entire history has been filled with chaos. Chaos is all we know.

From God's viewpoint though we have only been in existence for a very, very short amount of time. All of human history is almost nothing when put in perspective of the eternity that is laid out before us.

God gave us a perfect start. He gave us a beautiful planet to live on and everything we would need to enjoy being alive. He even gave us a purpose in life.

Adam and Eve ruined everything when they went against God and sinned against him.

God hates to see his creations suffer, I assure you of this. 
He is not going to force us to obey him though. His laws and direction are for our own benefit. If we would have listened to him then nobody would ever have had to suffer or die at all. We did not listen to God though and so right now we are basically living inside of a rebellion against God. 
This is why God can not step in and solve all our problems right now.

This is Satan's world. Humans have chosen to follow Satan rather then obeying Jehovah God. That is our reality.

God could have simply destroyed the human race but that would ruin God's plans for humanity.

Rather then destroying us, Jehovah has provided the payment for our sins. This allows us to be able to gain the everlasting life that was originally meant for us.

God is letting Satan and the rest of the rebellion continue for a short time so that the badness and the error of this rebellion will be clear to everyone for the rest of eternity.

It is stupidity to blame God for our own mistakes! 
If a mother smokes crack and ruins her own babies health then how can we blame God for this? It is clear that this is very upsetting to God.

There was a time when the Hebrew people used to burn their children alive while making sacrifice to the Baal God's. 
It is written in the bible that something like this is not even something that would ever come up into Jehovah's heart. These types of things are detestable to Jehovah God and he has proven this by his actions with the Hebrew people. The Hebrew scriptures gives us a great deal of insight into the thinking of God and it shows us that God detests sin far more then we do. The bible even says that God feels hurt at his heart when he sees us doing bad things.

God has allowed time to pass for a reason. He is allowing Satan to have a chance to prove his point. Satan has failed. Satan has not been able to unite all of mankind against Jehovah God.

And now in the last days, just as the bible has predicted, there are millions who are worshiping Jehovah and obeying him and remaining loyal even to their death. This is Jehovah's answer to Satan's taunts. 
Jehovah does not force his people to serve him but his people serve him willingly because they love him.

Jehovah is sending out the warning to this world now that very soon Jehovah God will take action and render justice upon this earth!

Once Jehovah's Kingdom is re-established upon this earth then no rebellion will ever again be tolerated. The issues regarding Jehovah's sovereignty over his creations will be settled for all time.

There will be no more injustice. There will be no more wars. There will be no more crack babies. There will be no more pain nor outcry. In Jehovah's Kingdom there will be peace and joy and love.

Do not blame God for the badness that is taking place here.

THIS IS NOT JEHOVAH'S KINGDOM!

We can not blame Jehovah God or Jehovah's Kingdom for anything!

We are living in a rebellion against Jehovah and against Jehovah's Kingdom. A rebellion being lead by Satan the Devil. This is why we suffer.

Jehovah's Kingdom is in reality the only hope we have.


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## LOSTONE

Here is more information about why God permits suffering.

Why Does God Permit Suffering?

WHEN disasters strike, destroying property and claiming lives, many cannot understand why such terrible things happen. Others are troubled by the extent, cruelty, and wantonness of crime and violence. You too may have wondered, ?Why does God permit suffering??

2 Because they have found no satisfactory answer to this question, many have lost faith in God. They feel that he is not interested in mankind. Others who accept suffering as a fact of life become embittered and blame God for all the evil in human society. If you have had such feelings, doubtless you will be very interested in the Bible?s statements on these matters.

SUFFERING NOT FROM GOD

3 The Bible assures us that the suffering we see around us is not caused by Jehovah God. For instance, the Christian disciple James wrote: ?When under trial, let no one say: ?I am being tried by God.? For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.? (James 1:13) That being so, God could not have caused the numerous hardships plaguing mankind. He does not bring trials upon people to make them fit for life in heaven, nor does he make people suffer for evil deeds they supposedly committed in a past life.?Romans 6:7.

4 In addition, even though many terrible things have been done in the name of God or of Christ, there is nothing in the Bible to suggest that either of them has ever approved of such actions. God and Christ have nothing to do with those who claim to serve them but who cheat and swindle, kill and plunder, and do many other things that cause human suffering. In fact, ?the way of the wicked one is something detestable to Jehovah.? God ?is far away from the wicked ones.??Proverbs 15:9, 29.

5 The Bible describes Jehovah as being ?very tender in affection and merciful.? (James 5:11) It proclaims that ?Jehovah is a lover of justice.? (Psalm 37:28; Isaiah 61:8) He is not vindictive. He compassionately cares for his creatures and gives all of them what is best for their well-being. (Acts 14:16, 17) Jehovah has done that from the very origin of life on the earth.

A PERFECT BEGINNING

6 All of us are accustomed to seeing and feeling pain and suffering. It may therefore be hard to imagine a time without suffering, but that was how things were at the beginning of human history. Even the legends of some nations allude to such a happy start. In Greek mythology, the first of the ?Five Ages of Man? was called the ?Golden Age.? In it humans lived happy lives, free from toil, pain, and the ravages of old age. The Chinese say that during the reign of the mythological Yellow Emperor (Huang-Ti), people lived in peace, enjoying harmony even with the elements and the wild beasts. Persians, Egyptians, Tibetans, Peruvians, and Mexicans all have legends about a time of happiness and perfection at the beginning of mankind?s history.

7 The myths of the nations merely echo the oldest written record of human history, the Bible. It informs us that God placed the first human pair, Adam and Eve, in a paradise called the garden of Eden and commanded them: ?Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it.? (Genesis 1:28) Our first parents enjoyed perfection and had the prospect of seeing the whole earth become a paradise occupied by a perfect human family living in lasting peace and happiness. That was God?s purpose in creating the earth and humankind.?Isaiah 45:18.

A MALICIOUS CHALLENGE

8 To remain in God?s favor, Adam and Eve would have to refrain from eating from ?the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.? (Genesis 2:16, 17) If they had obeyed Jehovah?s law, there would have been no suffering to mar human life. By obeying God?s command, they would have demonstrated their love for Jehovah and their loyalty to him. (1 John 5:3) But as we learned in Chapter 6, things did not turn out that way. Urged by Satan, Eve ate fruit from that tree. Later, Adam also partook of the forbidden fruit.

9 Do you see the seriousness of what happened? Satan was attacking Jehovah?s position as the Most High. By saying, ?You positively will not die,? the Devil contradicted God?s words, ?You will positively die.? Satan?s further words implied that Jehovah was keeping Adam and Eve ignorant of the possibility of becoming like God, thus not needing Him to decide what was good and bad. Satan?s challenge therefore brought into question the right and validity of Jehovah?s position as the Universal Sovereign.?Genesis 2:17; 3:1-6.

10 Satan the Devil also insinuated that people would remain obedient to Jehovah only as long as obeying God was to their advantage. In other words, human integrity was brought into question. Satan charged that no human would voluntarily remain loyal to God. This malicious claim by Satan is clearly revealed in the Bible?s account about Job, a faithful servant of Jehovah who underwent a great test sometime before 1600 B.C.E. When you read the first two chapters of the book of Job, you can gain insight into the reason for human suffering and why God permits it.

11 Job, ?a man blameless and upright,? came under Satan?s attack. First, Satan imputed bad motives to Job by raising the question, ?Is it for nothing that Job has feared God?? Then, the Devil cunningly maligned both God and Job by charging that Jehovah had bought Job?s loyalty by protecting and blessing him. ?But, for a change,? Satan challenged Jehovah, ?thrust out your hand, please, and touch everything he has and see whether he will not curse you to your very face.??Job 1:8-11.

12 Was Job serving Jehovah simply because of all the good that he received from God? Could Job?s integrity stand up under test? In turn, did Jehovah have enough confidence in his servant to allow him to be tested? These questions could be answered if Jehovah would permit Satan to bring upon Job the severest of tests. Job?s faithful course under the test allowed by God, as narrated in the book of Job, proved to be a thorough vindication of Jehovah?s righteousness and man?s integrity.?Job 42:1, 2, 12.

13 What happened in the garden of Eden and to the man Job, however, has a deeper implication. The issues Satan raised involve all mankind, including us today. God?s name was maligned, and his sovereignty was challenged. The uprightness of God?s creation, man, was called into question. These issues had to be settled.

HOW TO SETTLE THE ISSUES

14 For the sake of illustration, let us say that you are a loving parent with several children in a happy family. Suppose one of your neighbors spreads lies, accusing you of being a bad parent. What if the neighbor says that your children do not love you, that they stay with you only because they do not know any better, and that they would leave if someone showed them the way. ?Preposterous!? you might say. Yes, but how would you prove it? Some parents might react in rage. Besides creating more problems, such a violent response would lend support to the lies. A satisfying way to deal with such a problem would be to allow opportunity for your accuser to prove his claim and for your children to testify that they sincerely love you.

15 Jehovah is like the loving parent. Adam and Eve may be compared to the children, and Satan fits the role of the lying neighbor. God wisely did not destroy Satan, Adam, and Eve immediately but permitted these wrongdoers to continue living for a while. This allowed our first parents time to start the human family, and it has given the Devil a chance to prove whether his claim was true so that the issues could be settled. From the start, however, God knew that some humans would be loyal to him and would thus prove Satan a liar. How thankful we are that Jehovah has continued to bless and help those who love him!?2 Chronicles 16:9; Proverbs 15:3.

WHAT HAS BEEN PROVED?

16 During nearly all human history, Satan has had a free hand to work out his schemes of domination over mankind. Among other things, he has wielded influence over the political powers and has promoted religions that subtly direct worship to him rather than to Jehovah. Thus the Devil has become ?the god of this system of things,? and he is called ?the ruler of this world.? (2 Corinthians 4:4; John 12:31) Indeed, ?the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.? (1 John 5:19) Does this mean that Satan has proved his claim that he could draw all mankind away from Jehovah God? Certainly not! While permitting Satan to remain in existence, Jehovah has proceeded to carry out his own purpose. What, then, does the Bible reveal concerning God?s permission of wickedness?

17 Wickedness and suffering are not caused by Jehovah. Since Satan is the ruler of this world and the god of this system of things, he and those on his side are responsible for the present condition of human society and all the misery that mankind has suffered. No one can rightly say that God is the cause of such hardship.?Romans 9:14.

18 Jehovah?s permitting wickedness and suffering has proved that independence from God has not brought about a better world. Undeniably, history has been marked by one disaster after another. The reason for this is that humans have chosen to pursue their own independent course and have shown no real regard for God?s word and will. When Jehovah?s ancient people and their leaders unfaithfully pursued ?the popular course? and rejected his word, the results were disastrous. Through his prophet Jeremiah, God told them: ?The wise ones have become ashamed. They have become terrified and will be caught. Look! They have rejected the very word of Jehovah, and what wisdom do they have?? (Jeremiah 8:5, 6, 9) Having failed to follow Jehovah?s standards, mankind in general has become like a ship without a rudder, tossed about in a turbulent sea.

19 God?s permission of wickedness and suffering has also proved that Satan has not been able to turn all mankind away from Jehovah. History shows that there have always been individuals who have remained faithful to God no matter what temptations or adversities were brought upon them. Over the centuries, Jehovah?s power has been manifested in behalf of his servants, and his name has been declared in all the earth. (Exodus 9:16; 1 Samuel 12:22) Hebrews chapter 11 tells us about a long line of faithful ones, including Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and Moses. Hebrews 12:1 calls them ?a great cloud of witnesses.? They were examples of unwavering faith in Jehovah. In modern times too, many have given their lives in unbreakable integrity to God. By their faith and love, such individuals prove conclusively that Satan cannot turn all humans against God.

20 Finally, Jehovah?s allowing wickedness and suffering to continue has provided proof that only Jehovah, the Creator, has the ability and the right to rule over mankind for their eternal blessing and happiness. For centuries, mankind has tried many forms of government. But what has been the result? The complex problems and crises facing the nations today are ample evidence that truly, as the Bible points out, ?man has dominated man to his injury.? (Ecclesiastes 8:9) Only Jehovah can come to our rescue and fulfill his original purpose. How will he do this, and when?

21 Right after Adam and Eve fell victim to Satan?s scheme, God announced His purpose regarding a means of salvation. This is what Jehovah proclaimed regarding Satan: ?I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.? (Genesis 3:15) That proclamation guaranteed that the Devil would not be allowed to do his evil deeds forever. As the King of the Messianic Kingdom, the promised Seed, Jesus Christ, will ?bruise Satan in the head.? Yes, ?shortly,? Jesus will crush the rebel Satan!?Romans 16:20.

WHAT WILL YOU DO?

22 Knowing the issues involved, on whose side will you stand? Will you prove by your actions that you are a loyal supporter of Jehovah? Since Satan knows that his time is short, he will do all he can to vent his wrath on those who want to keep integrity to God. (Revelation 12:12) But you can look to God for help because ?Jehovah knows how to deliver people of godly devotion out of trial.? (2 Peter 2:9) He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, and he will make the way out so that you are able to endure temptations.?1 Corinthians 10:13.

23 Confidently, let us look forward to the time when the King Jesus Christ will take action against Satan and all who follow him. (Revelation 20:1-3) Jesus will do away with all those who share responsibility for the woes and turmoil that mankind has suffered.


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## AllmindnoBrain

You didnt really understand my points, i see that continueing this debate is useless being that we are both immovably entrenched in our way of thinking. What i was saying about the crack baby was that it wasnt the babies fault, it had no control over its situation and had to suffer, God created the human race thus was responsible for the creation of this child that suffered and had no control, if god didn't create us then this ONE child wouldnt have suffered.


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## nu-power

jimmyb said:


> Please make me well again...


amen


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## LOSTONE

AllmindnoBrain I do understand your point completely.



> if god didn't create us then this ONE child wouldnt have suffered.


And I actually agree with you on this 100%

Trust me, Jehovah God is very upset about these things.

It is not pleasing to God to see these bad things happen but it is not his fault.

Jehovah God is allowing bad things to happen for a reason. He himself is not doing anything bad.

*De 32:3-6

3 For I shall declare the name of Jehovah.
Do YOU attribute greatness to our God!

4 The Rock, perfect is his activity,
For all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice;
Righteous and upright is he.

5 They have acted ruinously on their own part;
They are not his children, the defect is their own.
A generation crooked and twisted!

6 Is it to Jehovah that YOU keep doing this way,
O people stupid and not wise?
Is he not your Father who has produced you,
He who made you and proceeded to give you stability? *

Yes children are dieing and many people are suffering but this is not a result of the actions of Jehovah God. This is a result of our own actions, our own sins have caused this suffering.

God could have destroyed all of humanity but that is not good in his eyes. He has plans for humanity to live forever on a paradise earth under his perfect Kingdom rule. Many of the victims of this world will be resurrected in paradise and be able to life forever in a perfect world.

God is giving all of us a choice right now to choose who's side we want to be on.

We can take up the side of Satan, the one who has started this rebellion and caused all of this pain. Or we can take up the side of Jehovah God and gain everlasting life in a paradise earth.

The choice is up to each one of us.

I assure all of you that Jehovah God is very good. He is perfect. 
The defect truly is our own.

*Ps 25:8-10
8 Good and upright is Jehovah.
That is why he instructs sinners in the way.

9 He will cause the meek ones to walk in [his] judicial decision,
And he will teach the meek ones his way.

10 All the paths of Jehovah are loving-kindness and trueness
For those observing his covenant and his reminders. *

*Ro 12:21
Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.*

*Joshua 25:15
Now if it is bad in YOUR eyes to serve Jehovah, choose for yourselves today whom YOU will serve, whether the gods that YOUR forefathers who were on the other side of the River served or the gods of the Am?or?ites in whose land YOU are dwelling. But as for me and my household, we shall serve Jehovah.?*

Personally I am going to be serving Jehovah God.

What the rest of you do is your own choice.

Personally Jehovah has proved himself to me simply through his own teachings. His teachings are perfect and they have already accomplished uniting mankind in a union of love.

Jehovah's Witnesses enjoy a worldwide brotherhood of love and peace that the rest of this world can only dream about. This spiritual paradise that exists today amongst Jehovah's Witnesses is proof to me that Jehovah is indeed very good and that he has not forgotten about us.

The invitation to join Jehovah's kingdom and live forever on paradise earth goes out to everyone. If this invitation is bad in your eyes then you have the option of turning it down. I do believe that if you do turn down Jehovah's invitation then you will be missing out on a never ending joy of eternal life in the most beautiful Kingdom government possible.

It is the biggest offer you can possibly turn down. 
Maybe you all might not want to be so quick to blame Jehovah for all of the problems here on earth. Maybe you might want to learn more about what Jehovah's side of the story is. Jehovah's story can be found in the bible and the Jehovah's Witnesses would be more then happy to help you understand who Jehovah is and what he is doing.

Don't be so quick to blame the creator of the universe for all of our mistakes. He is the one who will be judging us. He created us. We did not create him.


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## CECIL

Or you could see it another way and say that the child itself chose to come into this world under those circumstances before it was born. It makes sense if you also believe that we create each of our own experiences in order to learn. But to each their own.


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## LOSTONE

> Or you could see it another way and say that the child itself chose to come into this world under those circumstances before it was born.


Is that what you believe?

I do not believe anyone would choose to be molested and tormented as a child.

I also do not believe anyone would choose to be brutally murdered.

Ec 9:11 makes much more sense to me.

*"I returned to see under the sun that the swift do not have the race, nor the mighty ones the battle, nor do the wise also have the food, nor do the understanding ones also have the riches, nor do even those having knowledge have the favor; because time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all. "
*

According to the bible, bad things happen a lot of times simply because of time and unforeseen occurrence.

I don't know why anyone would choose to suffer or die.

I know for a fact that I did not choose the life that I have been living through. I have made choices along the way but I did not have any choice about entering this world into the situation that I found myself in. That was a result of the choices of my mother and father, it had nothing to do with me, I did not even exist yet.

CECIL do you really seriously believe that anyone would choose to live a tormenting life that only ends in death? Not to mention that the person doing the choosing does not even exist while that choice is being made. How do you make a choice if you do not even exist yet?

Personally, the bible's teachings are the only teachings in the world that I have found that even make any sense to me.


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## AllmindnoBrain

CECIL said:


> Or you could see it another way and say that the child itself chose to come into this world under those circumstances before it was born. It makes sense if you also believe that we create each of our own experiences in order to learn. But to each their own.


Interesting concept, but that would be impossible for us to be our own creators, well i guess no more impossible than the existance of god. isnt that called something like _causa sui_.


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## LOSTONE

> well i guess no more impossible than the existance of god.


LOL.

Well obviously something exists.

Philosophy can lead you to just about anywhere.

The bible will lead you to only one spot though.

Personally the only hope I have found on this earth that is good at all is the hope that the Jehovah's Witnesses have. If they are not speaking the truth then I don't really even care what the truth is because it makes little difference. Most all religions teach that God is evil except for the Jehovah's Witnesses. All religions say that God is good but the things they teach about God are very evil and thus contradicting. For example the teaching of a literal hellfire or the teaching that God kills people so that he can take them up into heaven for himself. Or the teaching that God has preplanned everything, predestination. Those are all evil teachings and I would never serve any of those God's even if I was proven that they were the true God/God's. I personally am seeking to serve Jehovah God, the God of the Jehovah's Witnesses because I have found this God to be worthy of my worship. There is no other God or teaching that I feel is worthy of me even paying much attention to anymore.

Also the idea of God's non existence is evil in a way because that idea teaches that we are all doomed.

So for me, there is obviously only one real hope on this earth and that is the hope I have found with Jehovah's Witnesses.

Everything else, all the other facts that I know are only backing up my hope so that my faith is unshakable.

We do exist, that is very clear.

What makes more sense.

That we just popped into existence out of nothing?
Or that we created ourselves when there was nothing, before we even existed?

Or that we were created by the one who is called the ancient of days?

I personally don't think to much about the philosophy of what God is anymore.

I simply do my best to try to understand who he is. 
The fact that our creator exists is very clear to me and I don't even see the point in questioning it. It is an obvious fact that we were designed/created. There is nothing that could even be more obvious.


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## Guest

Yes: a conveniently easy answer.



LOSTONE said:


> The bible will lead you to only one spot though.


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## LOSTONE

> Yes: a conveniently easy answer.


Yes well our creator is not the one making things complicated for us.

If it is complicated then I doubt that it is the truth.

Why would our creator seek to fool us?

Why should the truth be so hard to understand?

The truth is that the truth is not hard to understand.

People are being mislead by complicated and complex teachings, the truth is very simple though. And the truth is very clear for anyone with an honest heart to see.

The only people God is hiding himself from are the haughty people of this world. People that are happier to think that they themselves are God's. For anyone who is honestly and humbly searching for the truth, it is really not that hard to find or understand.


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## LOSTONE

The truth about how we got here is not "Chaos".

We did not get here by chance.

Therefor the truth is very simple.

We could not have just popped into existence out of nothing therefor we must have been created.

All other ideas are nonsense to me.

I look at my reflection in the mirror and it is very obvious to me that I was created. My eyes, my ears, my smile, my nose, my hair. It is all staring right back at me in the mirror. Showing me the proof of my creators creative power.


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## Guest

You wish to mask the so called ?creator? with candy floss so he/she/it appeals to people. And of course? if for one moment you stated any negative towards she/he/it? people wouldn?t like that? and so they would be less likely to give up their faith to this imagination friend of yours.

The candy floss/wool can not be pulled over my eyes.


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## Guest

Who or what created our creator?s creator?s creator?s creator? and so on? A ring of life? there has been no beginning? and there will be no end.



LOSTONE said:


> We could not have just popped into existence out of nothing therefor we must have been created.


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## LOSTONE

> there has been no beginning? and there will be no end.


That is what the bible says about Jehovah.



> You wish to mask the so called ?creator? with candy floss so he/she/it appeals to people.


Not really. It's not just my wish. 
The bible teaches that God is good. 
This teaching does not originate with me. It originates with the bible.


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## AllmindnoBrain

Emulated Puppet}eer said:


> Who or what created our creator?s creator?s creator?s creator? and so on? A ring of life? there has been no beginning? and there will be no end.


You took the words right out of my mouth. Humans having invented this master creator to explain the mysteriousness of existence still doesnt explain anything, how did he himself appear into existence? Saying he has been around forever makes absolutely no sense. If this higher being does exist and he took the time and effort to create this infinitely massive and complex universe with its living constituents, why make these lifeforms that inhabit this ONE planet (VERY doubtful we are alone in the universe) make it their main purpose to discover, believe, worship, honor, and understand him. Was he lonely? For such an inconceivably brilliant being to create such stupid humans as we are, that we cant even understand how we got here in the first place, and to want us to worship him. Why believe in an idea that we cant see, feel, touch, but only imagine. The human race would have had no progress if we followed this outline of believing solely the imagination and not on real hard facts (science). If their is a god there isn't a chance that he would be so egotistical to have us worship him or even allow us the ability to ponder his possible existence. It is much more logical to me that we were put here by some other higher and much more intelligent lifeform as some kind of experiment, this still doesnt explain how these other lifeforms appeared, but i think this is a MUCH greater possibility than any eternal magical god being in existence. One more thing, explain evolution.


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## AllmindnoBrain

By the way, evolution is no longer a theory, its an indesputable fact. But you would rather believe your imagination and feelings than cold hard facts that you can see, understand and touch.


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## LOSTONE

> But you would rather believe your imagination and feelings than cold hard facts that you can see, understand and touch.


That is actually backwards.

My belief is not based upon my imagination. It is based upon actual events. My beliefs are based upon years of studying and searching for the truth.

I did not use my imagination for anything.

My beliefs are based upon facts.


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## CECIL

LOSTONE said:


> I know for a fact that I did not choose the life that I have been living through. I have made choices along the way but I did not have any choice about entering this world into the situation that I found myself in. That was a result of the choices of my mother and father, it had nothing to do with me, I did not even exist yet.


This is a convenient lie people tell themselves so that they don't have to take responsibility for thier own lives. "Someone else chose for me", "I am powerless, I had no say in what happened". *THIS IS VERY DISEMPOWERING ON A VERY FUNDAMENTAL LEVEL.*



> CECIL do you really seriously believe that anyone would choose to live a tormenting life that only ends in death? Not to mention that the person doing the choosing does not even exist while that choice is being made. How do you make a choice if you do not even exist yet?


Yes, yes I do. And yes, we do exist before life. How? Because like I said, *we are already eternal*. This current 3D reality we are playing in is only a shadow of existance - a play pen for us to learn how to move and create with energy (the "fabric" of the universe - all that is).

So you can see each person's life as their "soul" (for lack of a better word - more realistically just a focal point of energy) incarnating here in this play pen to learn certain things.

First up, I'll say again that a life in which there is no conflict would be absolutely, mind numbingly BORING. There'd be literally no point to it. Shit you'd probably get depressed just because you were so bored.

So why would someone create a life for themself in which bad things happened to them? Firstly you have to stop thinking in black and white - i.e. "bad" things are actually positive experiences when you accept them and learn from them. No-one gets anywhere by playing the victim, but if you realise how you create your life and take responsibility for creating those "bad" circumstances, it actually empowers you and lets you change yourself so that you don't keep creating those "bad" situations for yourself.

Secondly, if you have this outlook as well as believing that our energy is eternal and will experience multiple lifetimes, then it becomes a game. One lifetime you can take on the role of a slave and experience what its like for your energy to be suppressed and your very essence crushed under the weight of oppression. The next you can become a ruthless dictator and experience that from the other side. One life you can be a priest and see what its like to live a life free from "sin", the next you can be a drug addicted whore and see what its like to commit every "sin" known to man. All of these experiences enrich your energy, because you are learning to create and you are learning from each of the experiences.

"But CECIL, how can you advocate people doing bad things? Won't people just use this as an excuse to commit sin without feeling guilty about it?"

Well, if someone wants to do that, they can. But no, I'm not advocating people harming each other. What I am saying is that every choice in life is valid. Its just that right now no-one takes responsibility for their own choices. We don't allow people to. Instead of letting people choose for themselves, we tell them what is "right" and what is "wrong". We say "God doesn't like it when you do that" but instead of letting "God" punish them, we take it into our own hands and lock them in prison. This helps no-one, in fact it only breeds hate, resentment and more crime. If we approached it in a different way then the world would be overall more peaceful yet still a damned interesting place to live.

Speaking from my experience in THIS life, one of the most enriching and rewarding processes is to endure years of pain and torment only to be able to pull yourself out the other side and heal yourself. I can't imagine anything would make you feel more alive.


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## LOSTONE

CECIL

I can assure you that I did not choose to be brought into this world. 
I did not design my own brain. I did not craft my own hands. I did not form my own eyes. I did not design my own heart.

These are things that were imprinted on my genetic code. They were a result of the fusion of my mother and fathers genetic makeup. I could not have been involved in the process simply because that very process was where I had my beginning.

I don't care of that sounds disempowering to you or not. That is simply the truth. I hope and pray that you realize that eventually so that you may be able to search for the true God who did actually have something to do with our creation.

We were designed, that is obvious. 
There is a very obvious and serious flaw with saying that we designed ourselves though. Nothing can not design something.



> we do exist before life


That is something like an oxymoron.
It is a completely contradicting statement.

We exist before life?

That would be a paradox.

And I must have had some serious amnesia or something because I have no memory of this existence before I existed.

Personally what I find very disempowering is putting faith into anything other then the truth. Maybe it might feel empowering to tell ourselves that we are our own God's but in reality this is not true and for that reason it is actually very disempowering to believe such a thing.

It would be empowering if it were a reality. Imagen being able to create ourselves! Yes how very empowering that would be. Sadly that is obviously not our reality, simply because it is an impossibility. So what is truly empowering is knowing the truth about where we come from and where we are going.

Putting faith into the idea that you are your own creator may make you feel good but it will not save you from reality.



> This is a convenient lie people tell themselves so that they don't have to take responsibility for thier own lives


I take responsibility for my actions. 
I do not take credit for my own creation though. 
I also do not take the responsibility for the actions of others. 
I only take responsibility for myself. 
What my Father and Mother did in order to produce me was not something I had any control over. Their actions is what brought me into this world. I do not take responsibility for the actions of other people.

I don't consider it a lie to say that my mother and father produced me. 
I consider it a scientific fact. 
I also consider it a scientific fact that this universe was designed. 
It is obvious. 
Design must have a designer.

Design can not design itself before it is even designed. 
It is simple logic. Think about it. I assure you it is not disempowering.


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## AllmindnoBrain

Who designed the designer then? Saying their is a god who designed our universe is just as paradoxical as saying we are eternal and designed our own existence.


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## Pablo

AllmindnoBrain said:


> Who designed the designer then? Saying their is a god who designed our universe is just as paradoxical as saying we are eternal and designed our own existence.


Exactly, life is a huge wonderious mystery and anyone who says they know for a fact about the mysteries of life then they are lying to themselves and wrapping themselves up in a big comfort blanket like a small child does when scared, and I hope it stays that way because think how boring life would be if we understood everything with our logical minds.

Anyway people should forget about trying to understand who created the earth and all those rubbish religious questions until they have answered the simple question "Who am I?" as I have yet to meet a single person in my entire life who has answered that question to satisfaction. People seem to think that they can understand the universe before they even understand themselves which is pure madness.


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## LOSTONE

> Who designed the designer then? Saying their is a god who designed our universe is just as paradoxical as saying we are eternal and designed our own existence.


The designer was not designed by anyone.

God is eternal in both directions.

That is not a paradox.

It is just hard for us to understand.

If you want to understand more about God then you should seek him out.

That is the key issue.

If you are not seeking for God then I would never expect you to find him.

You would need to be searching for him in order to fully understand him.

It is simple really. You just can not expect to be able to fully understand anyone who you are turning your back on. And that is even more true when we are speaking about God because God is not a visible fleshly person. He is not visible to our eyes in the way that a man is visible. 
So if you want to see him then you will have to do some searching. You can not expect to see God by turning away from him.



> Who am I?


That is an easy question for me to answer these days. 
That question used to confuse me a great deal. 
Now I know the answer though. 
I am who I am making myself to be. 
Who I truly am is a progressive thing. 
It is not set in stone because I am still living and I am still defining who I am each day that I am alive.

There is no way that anyone can explain who they are simply by saying that they are something. There needs to be examples shown. The actions and choices you make during your life is what makes you who you are.

Most humans often think much more of themselves then they should be thinking because they do not understand the truth about themselves. Most people do not understand that they are not who they view themselves to be. We are all defining ourselves by our actions and not by our own viewpoint of our "self". I could convince myself that I am God, that would not actually make me God though.

So the only way to honestly answer the question "who am I?"
Is by simply showing what things I have done and showing what actions and choices I have made in my life while also considering circumstances.

Who I am is a continuing process that keeps on progressing and changing as long as I am alive.

The same goes for everyone.


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## Guest

.


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## Guest

Deleted...whatever.


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## LOSTONE

> lostone wrote
> Quote:
> 
> He put us here because he was motivated out of love to create other lifeforms.
> 
> lostone thats the most beautifull thing ive read that youve written and i agree,it actually brought tears to my eyes.


Spirit according to my beliefs and according to the bible, God is actually self sufficient. He was not lonely and he did not need anything from any creation he might make. He existed for an eternity without anyone else around. He is complete.
So it is very clear that the only motivation that God could have for us would be a loving one. The bible reassures this over and over. According to the bible God has went much farther then simply creating us out of love though. He has also allowed a rebellion to take place and continue in order to save the human race and settle issues regarding his own Kingship without forcing us to do anything and without taking away our free will. Even further he has sent his most beloved first and only begotten creation to sacrifice his perfect life in order to cover over our sins.

All we have to do is simply show Jehovah God the same sort of love that he has already shown toward us. Even though we may make mistakes, we should pick ourselves back up and strive to obey and serve God to show him our appreciation for all that he has given to us.

This is all from the bible and I know it is not what everyone believes, I do consider it to be the truth though because everything that I have been able to find out about the bible has proven to be true.

Yes there are still some issues I do not fully know about but every issue I have been able to get information about has proven the bible to be correct.

I have also found a perfect love existing amongst the Jehovah's Witnesses that has proved God's power to me personally. The example of the Jehovah's Witnesses has set it firm into my mind that if any humans should be saved from this world and if there are any humans who deserve to be living in paradise earth then it is the Jehovah's Witnesses.

They are the only people who seem fit to exist in a perfect world because they are now striving for perfection more then any other group of people I have found.

I feel stronger about that then I do about anything. The actions of the Jehovah's Witnesses have proven God's power to me more then anything else actually. I have not found any other group of people with more unity, love, peace and loyalty then the Jehovah's Witnesses have.

In a very twisted and messed up world, I can only find one group of people that are truly building a society of love and peace and these people are Jehovah's Witnesses.

Jehovah's Witnesses have proven to me that God truly did create us out of love. While I was still living in a very deep darkness, the Jehovah's Witnesses showed me the truth about Jehovah and they showed me that God is far better and more loving then most people could even contemplate. As the bible says, his thoughts are above our thoughts just as the same as the sky is above the ground. Our understanding of God's true greatness and abundant love will never stop growing for the rest of eternity. That is what the bible says. Once Jehovah's Kingdom arrives then things will continue to get better and better and better for the rest of eternity. There will be no end to Jehovah's love or to Jehovah's glory. Nothing can prevent this.
He is Jehovah and he has already solved our problems. 
Now he is only being patient in order to give a complete warning to this world that his Kingdom is fast approaching and that we had better prepare for it.


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## AllmindnoBrain

God created us out of love? Out of love for whom? He had love for the people he concieved and then built prior to their existence? this seems egotistical to me once again, this is like an engineer loving his submarine that he thought up and created, what he really is loving though is himself for being able to contrive and turn this brilliant idea into a reality, this is him being proud of his accomplishment and not him having real "love" for his creation being that his creation is apart of him. This is the last time i am bringing this up and i hope you address it this time lostone, explain evolution. I still dont quite understand why he would have created us.


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## Pablo

LOSTONE said:


> Who am I?
> 
> 
> 
> That is an easy question for me to answer these days.
> That question used to confuse me a great deal.
> Now I know the answer though.
> I am who I am making myself to be.
> Who I truly am is a progressive thing.
> It is not set in stone because I am still living and I am still defining who I am each day that I am alive.
> 
> There is no way that anyone can explain who they are simply by saying that they are something. There needs to be examples shown. The actions and choices you make during your life is what makes you who you are.
> 
> Most humans often think much more of themselves then they should be thinking because they do not understand the truth about themselves. Most people do not understand that they are not who they view themselves to be. We are all defining ourselves by our actions and not by our own viewpoint of our "self". I could convince myself that I am God, that would not actually make me God though.
> 
> So the only way to honestly answer the question "who am I?"
> Is by simply showing what things I have done and showing what actions and choices I have made in my life while also considering circumstances.
> 
> Who I am is a continuing process that keeps on progressing and changing as long as I am alive.
> 
> The same goes for everyone.
Click to expand...

So are you saying a human is only defined by their actions? humans are doings or verbs and are completely defined by their choices? I dont really understand what you mean because children have very little say over their actions and choices but they still exist, are you saying that they have no "I" or "self" until they start making their own choices? that makes no sense to me.

I agree with you that most people dont realise that they are not who they view themselves to be but I dont think it has much to do with your choices and actions but rather to do with your identifications. Most people identify themselves with their personality or ego which mostly consists of family and cultural conditionings. The whole point of genuine spiritual practice is to examine how true or real your identifications are and how real your "I" is, most people think they are their personality and thats it, but anybody who has done any genuine spiritual practice quickly realises that the majority of things you call "I" are not even real and actually limit your real self which is undefinable.

Most mainstream paths like Jehovas just solidify your identifications and crystalise your personality by making you think that you are "spiritual" or special in the eyes of God or that you are special because you know the "truth", whereas what you really need is the exact opposite if you want to even attempt to answer the question "Who am I?", you have to challenge all of your assumptions and identifications about yourself with genuine practises.


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## LOSTONE

> God created us out of love? Out of love for whom? He had love for the people he concieved and then built prior to their existence? this seems egotistical to me once again, this is like an engineer loving his submarine that he thought up and created, what he really is loving though is himself for being able to contrive and turn this brilliant idea into a reality, this is him being proud of his accomplishment and not him having real "love" for his creation being that his creation is apart of him. This is the last time i am bringing this up and i hope you address it this time lostone, explain evolution. I still dont quite understand why he would have created us.


You are thinking about the way humans usually think about things. 
God does not think in this type of selfish way and his people strive to never think in such a selfish way either.

God created us because he already had love. Maybe not for us as individuals because we did not exist yet but his love was his motivation for giving us life. He was motivated to share what he himself had to give! It is that simple. We are not simply robots who were created to do some robotic task for God. God simply wanted to share what good things he had to offer. The problem is with us and our response to the gift of life and the gift of free will that Jehovah God gave to us. We abused Jehovah God and treated him with disrespect and we also have stolen from him. 
Jehovah God's Kingship has been challenged and it has been challenged by us! So we have stolen his right to rule over his creations. This is a very serious issue that must be settled. If God did not love us then we would all already be dead. No tyrant would allow a rebellion such as the one we are seeing here. Jehovah is allowing this rebellion to take place partly because of his love for us.

While many people are saying all sorts of horrible things about God, God is still patient and holding back from bringing judgment to these people. He is doing this because he desires for all of us to have a chance to realize our own error and turn back to him so that we may not have to die at all. Eventually though, Jehovah's patients will run out, there is a limit to the badness that Jehovah will allow us to display here. Eventually this rebellion will be put to an end. This also will be an act of love by God towards his people who are serving him, and also towards the victims of this world.


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## AllmindnoBrain

But god didnt create us directly, the first form of life consisted of a soup of microorganisms that EVOLVED very slowly into the many different species that exist today, and we are just one of them. this is scientific fact that can be supported by real evidence. we were not simply placed here as we appear today. Explain the existence of **** erectus and neanderthals and how we share 98.54% of the DNA of bonobos and chimpanzees, which is a 10 fold less difference than there is between rats and mice.


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## LOSTONE

Pablo what you said about Jehovah's Witnesses solidifying your identifications is exactly why I said that it is your actions and your choices that truly show who you really are as a person.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not solidify identifications in the way that you think. 
They teach that you must "Take Action" with your "Faith" in order to prove yourself to be fit to live in God's Kingdom.

There is much more to this then what I am saying. There is much to say about the mercy and forgiveness of Jehovah God but our own personal choices and our own actions is what shows who we truly are.

We may make identifications, that is true for everyone. But those identifications are not always true or accurate. This is why I say that your Actions and choices prove who you are as a person.

For example, you can identify yourself as being a follower of Jesus Christ. You can tell other people that you are a Christian. But then if you choose to join the military and fight in some war for America or any other nation here on earth then you are proving yourself to be a follower of Satan and not a follower of Jesus Christ.

I say this because of Jesus own teachings. You are not truly a Christian unless your choices and actions display that you indeed are following the Christ. The same goes for everything.

Your identifications are a part of who you are on the inside and often they will be clear in the things that you say. But your choices in life and your actions prove who you truly are as a person.

If you murder someone while professing to be a Christian at the same time then it should be obvious that you are not who you think you are. Unless you *admit of your sin* and you are *displaying repentance* and displaying the actions and faith of a Christian then you should not be identifying yourself as a Christian.

So identifications can be wrong and it seems to me that they usually are for most people.

Our choices and actions are clear though, that is why I say that our actions and choices is what really proves who we are as a person.

And we are always changing while we are still living.

Someone who may have at one time been in the military and even killed children for some reason in some battle would still have a chance to repent and make different choices and take different actions in the future. Thus this person would be changing who he/she is. And if that person keeps displaying a truly Christian lifestyle then according to the bible, that persons sins are probably going to be forgiven based upon the blood of Jesus Christ.

*Psalms 130:3,4
3 If errors were what you watch, O Jah,
O Jehovah, who could stand?
*

*Acts 3:19
?Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get YOUR sins blotted out, that seasons of refreshing may come from the person of Jehovah*

As the popular saying goes, "Actions speak louder then words"

Your Actions and your choices in life is what proves who you truly are as a person.



> are you saying that they have no "I" or "self" until they start making their own choices?


Actually yes it is a scientific fact that children don't start to form a self identity until they are about 2 years old. After they have already started to make choices for themselves. Using your free will to make choices for yourself is what helps you build your identifications and it helps you to build your own identity. This is why it takes time for a baby to realize that it's reflection in a mirror is actually just it's own reflection and not another baby. Because it realizes that when it is moving it's hands or making a smile then that is reflected back. If the baby is unaware of it's own actions and it's own choices then it would never be able to be aware if it's own reflection, or it's own identity.

The problem with most people is that they view their own reflection in a distorted way, and that reflection for some people only becomes more and more distorted over time. This is why it is good for true Christians to pray to God and ask God to search us out because we may personally think that we are doing fine when in reality we are very sick in God's eyes. So we pray for God to search through us and correct our path and to bring to the surface any bad things that are hidden in us so that we may be able to heal. Also a true Christian should be praying for guidance continually because of this problem we humans have with seeing the truths about ourselves and our own ways. Even when we think we are doing what is right, Jehovah's Witnesses are aware of the need to keep praying for guidance because as the bible says it does not belong to man to even direct his own step.

We need God's help for everything that we are doing in order to keep ourselves in line with his perfect standards. We need this because we are imperfect and we often view ourselves in a very distorted way from what is actually the truth.

With God's help it is possible for all of us to prove by our choices and actions that we are true Christians and that we are true servants of Jehovah God.


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## LOSTONE

> But god didnt create us directly, the first form of life consisted of a soup of microorganisms that EVOLVED very slowly into the many different species that exist today, and we are just one of them. this is scientific fact that can be supported by real evidence. we were not simply placed here as we appear today. Explain the existence of **** erectus and neanderthals and how we share 98.54% of the DNA of bonobos and chimpanzees, which is a 10 fold less difference than there is between rats and mice


I have read plenty about evolution and personally it all seems like religious dogma to me.

The bible has a massive amount of more proof backing it up then the Evolution Theory has.

I don't need to explain anything about DNA. 
If God made our bodies in a similar manor to the way he made the bodies of other primates then that does not prove anything about Evolution. 
The DNA design was obviously designed by a designer, what difference does it make how much DNA we have in common with other primates?
We humans are obviously unique. If there is something that is amazing about the fact that you stated then it is the creative power of God.

Just think, only by Changing the DNA design around just a little bit from what the design of other primates is, God has been able to create Human beings. The true difference between ourselves and other primates is very obvious, we do not even need to know anything about DNA to see that we are truly different in a large way from the other creatures on this earth.

According to the bible, God did create us directly from the dust. 
I do not doubt the bible account simply because of the dogma of a few scientists. The bible has proven to be far, far more reliable then science anyway. Science is almost always proved to be wrong after a few years. The bible has never been proven wrong about anything.

For example. While scientists were saying that this earth was flat, the bible Writer Isaiah stated that the earth is spherical. Job also spoke of the earth as being spherical in shape. The bible also speaks of the earth as being hung upon nothing! It speaks of the bible as if it were self supporting!

On this and every other issue, the bible has proven to be far more reliable then "Science". So I am going to stick with the bible account about how Humanity came into existence.

The Evolution Theory is extremely sloppy anyway. Their have even been many forged species that scientist have made to try and fill the gaps in the Evolutionary process. These frauds show the imperfection of humans trying to prove their own ideas by creating false evidence to back up their own beliefs.

As I said. 
The bible is far more reliable.


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## Makuren

That is hard to grasp for me. Evolution has taken place through time to create a variety of animals and creatures, it has been backed up by many scientific professions. I personally have the belief that God was the force driving the evolutionary process forward. Then again, as I recall these thoughts i'm beginning to ponder about it! If evolution is as valid as they claim would we not see new species evolve during the period of human evolution? Indeed we have. Particularly in the micro organisms, and insects. Viruses who were cured by a certain medicine eventually becomes resistant of the medicine. The same thing goes with roaches and bugs who get killed by insecticides. Some eventually become resistant and produce offspring with that resistant make-up. Hell idiotic scientists are now making different breeds of animals.

If I follow what has been previously said in the thread: God has turned his back to us because of our rebelious actions. if this is indeed true then God is not the one who is genetically modifying these creatures/animals to become more tolerant to diseases. Then again maybe God created Life with this Evolutionary system in mind and it has always been part of the foundation of life. In other words, God created it so there would be Natural Selection and Sexual selection taking place when creation BEGAN. Wow, I just answered my own question!


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