# Not spiritual debate section?



## Guest

Why did u close my thread?
If people are allowed to praise a book that says stone ur daughter, stone ur son, stone ur wife, sell your daughter, stone homosexuals and I ain't allowed to say FUCK RELIGION?

Yea I can live without a site with fuckin hypocrite moderators

s
u
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k
!


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## Pablo

Why do you hate religion?


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## Guest

.


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## CECIL

My guess is that it was in the wrong forum and/or the tone of the post was abusive.

Honestly, if you REALLY believed everything you write about then you wouldn't get so angry about opposing views. The fact you do get angry says to me that you aren't confident in your own beliefs. If you were, you wouldn't feel the need to tear down other people for having different beliefs, you could just say "Fair enough, to each their own" and move on.

Anger is the polar opposite of fear. What is it that you are afraid of Copeful? Again, my guess is that you found yourself in a horrible situation and you turned to religion/spirituality for answers. But you didn't find your answers there and/or you weren't ready to accept the answers you found.

Its always your own choice to decide what to believe in. No-one here can change your mind, only you can do that. Likewise, you can't discredit our ideas and it certainly wouldn't hurt to show some respect for differing opinions.


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## CECIL

Additionally, you continually insult us and say that we don't know shit about science, aren't willing to accept the facts of science blah blah blah.

Look, I'm going to capslock this, underline and bold it for you:

*I STUDIED SCIENCE IN HIGH SCHOOL AND GOT DAMN GOOD GRADES IN IT. I WENT ON TO STUDY BIOMEDICAL SCIENCE/MOLECULAR BIOLOGY AT UNIVERSITY AND GRADUATED WITH FIRST CLASS HONOURS IN MOLECULAR IMMUNOLOGY*

Stop saying we don't know shit about science because we do. If you want to talk about science then do that. I'm sure I can hold a semi-coherent conversation with you about it, since I do know a little bit about it.

Now, my memory may be fuzzy concerning details, but I can talk your ear off about the human body and how it works. I've done the research and I've done the work. I haven't extensively studied neuro-biology but I have dabbled in it throughout my course. So if you want to talk about neuro-biology then go ahead, we can have a discussion about it.

Does it not even interest you how someone can believe in BOTH spirituality and science at the same time? I assure you the two can be reconciled, though I'm not 100% sure on how to do this yet. Again, it can be BOTH, it doesn't have to be one or the other, it can be both.

Please, PLEASE. Show some respect.


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## LOSTONE

Why I Believe
the Bible
A Nuclear Scientist Tells His Story!

This is the story of a Nuclear Scientist who works at NASA who is also a dedicated Jehovah's Witness.

Copeful

You might not agree with this mans beliefs but hopefully you might understand why I am sharing this with you.

You will probably be banned as soon as Rev sees what you have said to him. 
Anyway, I am sure you will be able to come back to at least read this post, if the entire thread is not deleted.

*AS TOLD BY ALTON WILLIAMS*

IN 1978 two significant events took place in my life. In September I received my degree as a nuclear physicist, and in December, I was ordained as a minister of Jehovah's Witnesses.

When people learn that I am a scientist as well as a Witness, they often wonder how I reconcile my scientific knowledge with my belief in the Bible. Granted, for years I too wondered whether scientific knowledge and belief in the Bible could go together. Eventually, though, I became fully convinced that the Bible is in harmony with scientific fact. How did I reach that conclusion? Please allow me first to relate how I became a scientist.
A 19-Year Project

I was born in 1953 in Jackson, Mississippi, U.S.A., the third of 11 children. Our family was poor. We often had to move from one house to another because my parents could not pay the rent. We received most of what we ate through a government food-subsidy program, and the secondhand clothing we wore was given to us by people for whom my mother cleaned houses and offices.

My parents often reminded us children that the only way out of poverty was to get a good education. As a result, at a very early age, I set my mind on obtaining a college degree. I started school at the age of six, and I continued my schooling without interruption for the next 19 years. I enjoyed science and mathematics, so once I entered college, I began to pursue a career as a scientist.

While in college, I met a young woman named Del. A science professor had referred her to me so Del could get some help with a science course she was taking. Soon, though, our conversations went beyond science, and we fell in love. We were married on January 10, 1974?during a two-hour interval between classes! Four years later, in 1978, I finally received my doctorate.

I had achieved what I thought was the key to success. I was a scientist?and a nuclear physicist at that! With my newly attained degree in theoretical nuclear physics in hand, I could begin to reap the fruitage of my long studies. I was eager to make a name for myself in the scientific arena. In addition, I could now choose a job from among the many lucrative offers made by private companies and government institutions.

However, a few months later, on December 30, 1978, I took a step that soon proved to have even more influence on my life and future than my newly attained degree. On that date, I symbolized my dedication to Jehovah God through water baptism and thus became one of Jehovah's Witnesses. How did that step come about?
A Book Sparked My Interest

In the latter part of 1977, while I was studying at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst, two Witnesses knocked on the door of my apartment. I was away, but my wife was at home with our children, a three-year-old and a newborn. Del invited the Witnesses in. After a pleasant conversation, she agreed to have the Witnesses visit her once a week to conduct a Bible study with her.

I thought that faith in God was based more on emotion than on reason

When my wife informed me of this arrangement, I immediately opposed her. I didn't mind that she wanted to join a religion?but not Jehovah's Witnesses! Actually, I did not know much about the Witnesses, but I had a preconceived idea that they were a strange group that used the Bible to deceive people. So, in an effort to free my wife from what I considered to be the grasp of the Witnesses, I thought that I would use my scientific knowledge to discredit their teachings.

One week I took a break from my research work at the university and went home to be present during my wife's Bible study. However, I arrived home later than I had planned, and the woman conducting the Bible study was about to leave. She gave me a book entitled Did Man Get Here by Evolution or by Creation?* Also, she told my wife that during the Bible study scheduled for the following week, they would consider a Bible prophecy showing that 1914 was a significant year. That was exactly the opening I needed! I told the Witness that I would be at home for the next Bible discussion. I wanted to check the mathematical accuracy of what she was going to discuss about the year 1914.

That same night I began reading the book that the Witness had left. Frankly, the contents impressed me. It was written in a logical manner, and it contained numerous scientific references concerning the subject of evolution. To my surprise, I learned that the Bible contains much more exact information regarding creation than I had previously realized. I finished examining the book in a few days and had to admit that what the Bible actually states about creation does not contradict the known scientific facts concerning life on earth.
Determined to Find Inconsistencies

Nevertheless, I was still skeptical about the teachings of the Witnesses, and I was looking forward to doing a mathematical check of the Bible prophecy concerning the year 1914. I thought that this approach would no doubt intimidate the Witness and, hopefully, help my wife to see the error of the beliefs taught by the Witnesses.

The following week the Witness returned accompanied by a man who was one of the elders in the local congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. The elder conducted the Bible study. He considered the prophecies found in chapters 4 and 9 of the Bible book of Daniel, concerning the appearance of Jesus as Messiah and King. My mind was set on finding mathematical inconsistencies in the presentation, but I found none. On the contrary, I was again impressed by the logic of the information contained in the Bible.

Up to that point, I thought that faith in God was based more on emotion than on reason. How wrong I was! I thanked the Witnesses for the informative discussion and said that I would like to continue participating in the weekly study. So from then on, I continued my studies at the university and, together with my wife, my Bible studies with the Witnesses. Also, my wife and I began to attend the meetings of the Witnesses held at the Kingdom Hall.

Within a few months, I learned many new Bible truths and soon qualified to join the Witnesses in the door-to-door ministry. This I did even though I was in the final stages of earning my doctorate at the university, which absorbed a great deal of my time. I finished my dissertation in the summer of 1978 and moved to the state of Alabama, where I began teaching physics at the Alabama A. & M. University in Huntsville. We quickly contacted the Witnesses in our new locality, and an elder and his wife continued to study the Bible with us. A few months later, my wife and I were baptized, both on the same day.
Active as a Scientist and a Minister

For me, being a scientist has proved to be compatible with being a Witness of Jehovah. In 1983, I began working as an astrophysicist at the George C. Marshall Space Flight Center of NASA (National Aeronautics and Space Administration), also in Huntsville.# I worked in both the experimental and the theoretical fields associated with an X-ray telescope. (In 1999 that telescope?the Chandra X-ray Observatory?was successfully launched into orbit by the space shuttle Columbia.) I enjoyed working on that project, which involved the analyzing of X-rays emitted from various stars and galaxies in an attempt to understand the physical universe better.

My work was doubly enjoyable to me because not only was I working on a scientifically challenging problem but I was also coming to a deeper appreciation of the power and wisdom of the Creator. In fact, Jehovah's words through the ancient prophet Isaiah took on special meaning for me. The Creator says: "Raise your eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one of them is missing." (Isaiah 40:26) The more I 'raised my eyes high up' to peer at the vastness, the complexity, and the beauty of the universe, the more I appreciated the work of the intelligent Designer who brought all of it about and established the laws that keep it all together.

During that time, I kept busy publishing new material in scientific journals based on my research in X-ray astrophysics. However, I was also active in the Christian congregation. I served as an elder and spent some 20 hours each month in the public preaching work. Meanwhile, my wife engaged in the Bible education work on a full-time basis.

After working some four years at NASA, I felt a growing need to volunteer more of my time to help others learn the wonderful truths found in the Bible. But how could I do so? After discussing my desire with my wife and taking the matter to Jehovah in prayer, I realized that I had to make some important decisions.
Weighty Decisions

I approached my immediate supervisor at NASA and told him that I wanted to change my workweek from five days to four days. Of course, I would accept a reduced income. I explained to my supervisor that I wanted to spend the other three days of the week in connection with my ministry. My supervisor agreed, although this arrangement was unheard of for scientists at NASA. However, he told me that I needed to talk to his supervisor. I did so and was pleasantly surprised when this upper-level supervisor also agreed with my request. So in September 1987, I began my career as a full-time minister, spending some 90 hours a month in door-to-door preaching and other features of the ministry.

Later, a supervisor from the Alabama A. & M. University in Huntsville called me. He offered me a teaching position in the physics department. I replied that I would accept the job only if it would enable me to use the bulk of my time for my ministry. I assured him, though, that my activities in the ministry would not detract from the quality of my work in teaching classes. The supervisor agreed. Today, I still teach at that university and also serve as a full-time minister. I even had time to learn Spanish. Presently, my wife and I serve in a Spanish-speaking congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses in Huntsville.
Science and Faith

In my years of doing scientific research, I have never encountered a conflict between a proved scientific fact and a teaching of the Bible. Often, seeming conflicts are caused by a lack of knowledge?either of a scientific teaching or of what the Bible really says. For example, some scientists and others erroneously think that the Bible teaches that plants, animals, and humans all developed on earth within six literal 24-hour days. This would be in conflict with known scientific facts. But the Bible does not teach that. Rather, it reveals that the creative "days" encompass thousands of years.%

I have never encountered a conflict between a proved scientific fact and a teaching of the Bible

Confusion also arises from the mistaken idea that faith in God is merely an emotional experience. Far from that, faith in God and the Bible is based on facts that can be verified. As defined in the Bible, "faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration [or, "convincing evidence," footnote] of realities though not beheld." (Hebrews 11:1) Yes, faith is based on evidence. Hundreds of prophecies have been fulfilled in the past and in our day. Thus, even applying the scientific method used by all scientists to establish a scientific theory, we can have complete confidence in the fulfillment of Bible prophecies that pertain to future events.

One such prophecy includes the promise that we will be able to enjoy Paradise conditions on earth in the near future. The devastating effects of old age, sickness, death, wars, and injustice will be no more. (Revelation 21:3, 4) Then we will have time to explore and study in detail the wonderful creations of Jehovah God and the many laws that he established to govern this awe-inspiring physical universe.

I am grateful to Jehovah God for helping me to find the key to true happiness?the wonderful truths found in his Word, the Bible. It is my prayer that still many others, including scientists, may find that precious key.

* Published by Jehovah's Witnesses but now out of print.

# NASA is a U.S. government organization that functions independently from other government agencies.


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## Guest

I've given you studies and evidence disproving OBE/NDE, which eliminates astral body.
given links who prove emotions and mental life = physical material brain, there goes the mental and emotional "bodies".
proven consciousness is physical = there goes your soul.

No, anger can also be a result of frustration

so sorry, you lost.

And as for your arguements, it's all strawmen, just because a NASA scientist became a Jehovas Witness doing mean shit, should I use the same proof of all the stories of ministers who's turned atheist? NO, I give you EVIDENCE and studies, not just stupid arguements.

idiots, and no, all I posted was FUCK RELIGION and close therad, bullshit, and JEA i posted it in this section


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## Pablo

:lol:

yeah you have convinced everybody with all your conclusive evidence

:lol:


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## LOSTONE

> so sorry, you lost


Why would anyone make the subject about God or religion about winning or losing an argument?

I don't understand what you are thinking Copeful.

Don't you realize that the importance of the conversation go far beyond personal pride??

It is something you should really think hard about.

The subject of religion should not be about simply winning an argument.

Just think, we are talking about the creator of the entire universe!

Either way the facts go, the subject should be taken more seriously then any other subject that will ever come up in your life.

Pride and fear should have nothing to do with this subject at all.

It should not matter who wins or who loses. 
Who is the real winner?

The real winner is not the one who is able to say the most words or the worst words. The real winner is not even the one with the most knowledge. The real winner is the one who is speaking the truth about these things.

So it should not matter to you if you win or lose an argument or debate about this subject. All that should matter is that you are content that you are speaking the truth. Maybe you do not actually have the contentment that you think you have about this matter? You might want to pray about this if you are unsure of yourself. I assure you, even though you do not know God and you profess to not believe in him, if you humble yourself before him and pray to him for guidance then he will assist you in knowing the truth.

Knowledge is not the only reason people say that they believe in God Copeful. Many people have full faith in God because they have humbled themselves and God has shown himself to these people. God has the power to either hide himself from his creations or to make himself known to his creations. If you find in yourself that you do not truly know for sure what your own beliefs are then do yourself a favor and pray to God.

Don't just pray in a sarcastic way but really pour out your heart to God and beg for him to make himself known to you. I assure that if you do this with a pure heart toward him, even not knowing him and not knowing of his existence, he will make himself known to you.

The only way to truly lose is if you lose your life. 
Nobody here has died and for that reason I don't consider anyone here a loser.

Copeful I feel very sorry for you and I hope that maybe you will take my advise because you can not know the truth about God without humbling yourself before him. This is why so many people do not believe in God. It is *impossible* to know the true God if you believe you are a God yourself.


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## Guest

I feel for you all... needing your beliefs to be heard and understood... I don't tell any one about my "magical powers"... because no one need know


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## LOSTONE

Emulated Puppet}eer

People speak about the bible because it is a commandment from God.

Many people who go door to door preaching about the bible are actually very scared and shy types. Preaching is literally a commandment toward anyone who claims they are a disciple of Jesus Christ. 
Then again, I am not really a disciple of Jesus, so I don't really count.

About your "powers".

Maybe you should try different medication for your DP/DR :wink: .

LOL.


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## Rozanne

Copeful said:


> I've given you studies and evidence disproving OBE/NDE, which eliminates astral body.


I'm worried that by writing this I'll get a barrage of abuse from you Copeful, but my point is that even if there isn't a separate astral body, there are astral experiences. It isn't necessary to know all mysteries of how and why things work, to do that you'd have to be God anyway.

What matters is that we are in this world and we'd better get better at sharing it. :roll:

So suck my dick and fuck my mother. Not really. I just thought if this thread is going to be banned anyway I may as well jump on the bandwagon.


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## Guest

*Lostone*

An excellent excuse, they are commanded by their lord who speaks no words within this realm called Earth? bravo.

Hold on, are you saying that anxious preaches go door to door to have the door slammed into their faces? That?s a self esteem boost for them.

If you?re not a ?disciple? of Jesus? where does your motivation in these augments from?

Oh, about my powers? they are bullshit. It?s nice to own up to the truth aka reality *Smiles sweetly* 

Bless thou?


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## LOSTONE

> An excellent excuse, they are commanded by their lord who speaks no words within this realm called Earth


It's not an excuse.

Mt 10:7
As YOU go, preach, saying, ?The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.

Mt 10:27
What I tell YOU in the darkness, say in the light; and what YOU hear whispered, preach from the housetops.

2Ti 4:2-5
2 preach the word, be at it urgently in favorable season, in troublesome season, reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all long-suffering and [art of] teaching. 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories. 5 You, though, keep your senses in all things, suffer evil, do [the] work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry.

*These words were spoken and recorded in this realm called earth.*


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## LOSTONE

> where does your motivation in these augments from?


Actually I am not motivated to argue about God or the bible.

I am only motivated to say what I know is the truth.

Even if God were casting judgment on me, I still have a desire to let people know the truth. This way people could make up their choices in life with a clear understanding of things. I do not like the confusion that exists in this world.

The motivation is based on the thought that everlasting life may be possible for you.


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## Guest

LOSTONE said:


> .*These words were spoken and recorded in this realm called earth.*


Spoken and recorded by humans


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## Guest

So we?re not arguing at the moment? If you were ?just? motivated to say what you ?know? is the truth, you would just state it and leave be? although you haven?t done that? you keep insisting your beliefs, which courses an argument? fuelled by both of us.



> know (HAVE INFORMATION)
> to have information in your mind.
> 
> know (BE FAMILIAR WITH)
> to be familiar with or have experience and understanding of.


You?re speaking the information from within your mind, and this information hasn?t been proven beyond doubt? so it is not the ?truth? because it hasn?t been confirmed to be a fact, although you?re more then welcome to say it?s the God's honest truth.

You need not worry, you will not be casted into the fires of hell, stick to your ways and you?ll reach your heaven. You do not like the reality which has been blended in with lies, so you stand by your fantasies, that?s fair enough? I understand that.

No need, I seek no next life? only nothingness? no pleasure, sorrow or time? just nothing. Why be scared of nothing? You go forth and head off into your heaven which your human mind can understand, while I?ll enter the oblivion which my human mind won?t need to understand, because I will no longer have any bond with it.


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## LOSTONE

E,

Personally it has been proven to me.

I am not insisting my beliefs.

Most of what I say is an answer to the things others are saying around here.

For example if you say something like



> I feel for you all... needing your beliefs to be heard and understood...


Then I want to let you know that this is not the only reason that people go door to door preaching about the bible and about God's Kingdom.

It does not bother me if people disagree with me.

But I would like for people to at least know clearly why they disagree with me if their is only disagreement.

I do not want people to be telling me things like what you just said about heaven and think that this is in line with my beliefs.



> No need, I seek no next life? only nothingness? no pleasure, sorrow or time? just nothing. Why be scared of nothing? You go forth and head off into your heaven which your human mind can understand, while I?ll enter the oblivion which my human mind won?t need to understand, because I will no longer have any bond with it.


See if I said nothing then you would assume that what you yourself said is correct about my beliefs.

This is just another example.

I do not believe I will be going to heaven.

The bible does not say that everyone righteous will be going to heaven. 
What the bible says is that the righteous will posses the earth.

*Psalms 37:29
The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it. *

It is not that I am insisting.

It is because many people disagree with me about my beliefs before they even know what my beliefs are. I find this a bit disturbing but I don't even let this bother me much. I just like to let these people know what beliefs they are disagreeing with so that they will know more clearly what they do not believe.

So when you say that you do not believe what Jehovah's Witnesses believe then it will be at least a little clear to you what beliefs you are in disagreement with.


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## LOSTONE

> Spoken and recorded by humans


Usually words spoken on the earth are spoken by humans.

In this realm their are humans.

Usually in heaven words are spoken by powerful spirit creatures who existed long before the creation of the earth. Humans do not speak there because humans do not exist in these realms.

In the realm above their are powerful spirit creatures.

So if someone is going to speak in this realm called earth then it is probably going to be a human being. Same goes with writing down and recording speech. If someone is going to record words here on the earth then it will probably be a human who will do the recording. This is because humans are the intelligent creatures who inhabit the earth.

This is what I believe anyway.

I am not sure why you would have a problem with this.

But whatever.

As I said, I just want it to be clear to you what my own beliefs are so that you will know what you disagree or agree with a little better.


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## Pollyanna 3098

Rozanne said:


> Have a nice day


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## Rozanne

Oops. Shame I didn't get a chance to delete that. What I was trying to say was that words are more effective when you mean them and you aren't just being reactive.

Oh and when they are credible. Like I don't have a penis that was just a joke.


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## Rozanne

LOSTONE said:


> Spoken and recorded by humans
> 
> 
> 
> Usually words spoken on the earth are spoken by humans.
> 
> In this realm there are humans.
Click to expand...

And parrots but they are in the minority.


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## Guest

Well I will comment as I dont actually care if anyone here is abusive to me,I dont have to care.
Not expressing yourself because you fear the others opinion is just being reactive,if you trully beleive in what youre saying ,any argument against it will just fly over your head instead of causeing you to react equally as childishly.

Lostone as usual you say that you are not insisting on your beleifs but really you are,not a problem to me but at least be honest about it.
I dont think you should have told copefull to "pray and humble himself before god,"
He doesnt beleive in god thats not a problem,its his right,all I ever had a problem with was the abrasive speech.Cant you see that saying that was provocative? youre asking for abuseive speech when you provoke it like that.

I cant be bothered to respond to any of your comments,pointless.You would just the quote the bible at me which is EXTREMLEY annoying because you insist that you understand it better than anyone else,like you own it or something.For goodness sake even christ wasnt a christian just like buddha wasnt a buddhist,would you start quoting the bible to jesus if he visited you? he wasnt a christian and he is beautiful.How dare you tell someone to "pray and humble themselves before god" who do you think you are? seems you need to take your own advice .
If you came to my door and said that,I would probably shove the book in your gob. Lostone I mean you no disrespect ,not really,I know your motivation is well meant and I wish you well,but you do use that book as a security blanket too much,Im not trying to discount its valuable quality or devalidate its words at all.
I would be willing to listen if you were to share your experience of "god" but you dont seem to be willing to listen to anyone elses experience [or lack of]of god" Even a preist would be less judgemental than you are,he would not start quoting the bible to make someone beleive,he might share a few heart felt words of inspiration and comfort,rather than insist on his words and instill fear into the person.

Best wishes
Spirit.


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## LOSTONE

Spirit I don't know what your talking about.

I never made demands on anyone.

What I said to Copeful was an option.

An option he may have not considered.

Spirit if people are going to say things about God or people are going to talk about religion and then say that quoting from the bible is


> EXTREMLEY annoying


 then this is making my point about fear.

I do not tell people that it is "EXTREMLEY annoying" that they do not believe in God, or that they believe that Jesus was not a servant of Jehovah God.

Spirit if I were insisting my beliefs then that is probably what I would say.

I am not annoyed even if everyone here is in disagreement with me. I think it is very sad though that people are able to say things like "God does not exist" or "Jesus is not a Christian" and yet these same people seem to be afraid of scripture.

Spirit what you said about a preist may be true but personally I do not believe that it is loving for me to not speak the truth to people because of fear that they will not like what I say.

I speak the truth and I do not hold back from speaking what I know is the truth, if this is upsetting to people then that does not have anything to do with me.

My point is that I will not lie in a way to not point out information that I know exists just because this information is disturbing to others.

If God's servants always acted this way then I do not think anyone would ever be called a servant of God.

Most of God's servants (of the bible) were sent out to give a "warning" rather then a comfort.

I don't desire to upset people and that is not my goal. My only goal is to speak the truth and to not hold back from speaking the truth.

I don't see the point in arguing though. If what I say is upsetting to you and to everyone else and there is nobody here wanting to hear what I have to say then I will stop posting.

My intention is not conflict and if that is all I am faced with then I see no point in continuing speaking here.


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## Pablo

Jesus wasn't a Christian he was Jewish and there is no way he would ever join any of the Christian organisations which exist today. If he were alive today he would probably go and teach in Buddhist communities or with Sufis because at least they still understand part of the essence of his teachings.


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## Guest

Pablo said:


> Jesus wasn't a Christian he was Jewish and there is no way he would ever join any of the Christian organisations which exist today. If he were alive today he would probably go and teach in Buddhist communities or with Sufis because at least they still understand part of the essence of his teachings.


Absolutly right he would!

Lostone there you go again projecting your own ideas onto me. Again I am not disagreeing with you out of fear, why do you find it so hard to accept that people may just disagree with you. I do find you quoting the scriptures extremely ANNOYING, NOT because I am "scared" but because its just bloody annoying okay. I don't have anything against christian scriptures or the bible, I used to call my self a christian and some of the purer teachings are integrated into my buddhist practice. But the fundamental extremist bullshit pissed me off. I just disagree with you.
I'm not going to start making excuses to account why you may disagree with me because to be honest I don't give a flying fig roll.


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## Rozanne

Dear Lostone, there are reasons your posts aren't being respected or accepted. It is because you appear to have an agenda. You appear to say that Watch Tower literatue is unquestionable, that it is not ok to even debate these things; this appears to suppress other peoples' right to a point of view on the content of what you are posting.

The problem here is that, you do not recognise that your conviction is also a PERSON OPINION based on faith or experience.

Of course, you don't see it as a personal opinion because you appear to believe that Watch Tower material is absolute truth in an undissolved form. This is a deep commitment, probably due to your needing to have something to cling onto. Actually, my boyfriend has a similar thing over 2012. He is unable to accept that I may not believe in it. When I express myself, he complains that I reject it due to ignorance. This is a classic closed argument method used by people who are unwilling to have their beliefs questioned in an open forum.

Lostone, defensiveness is very destructive. Openness is more positive. Openness is the only way on an open forum. Your weakness is that you cannot accept the role that you and your psychology plays. It is YOU who chose the Jehovah's Witness path. That was a choice based on your belief that it is the truth. To the rest of the world, this is a reality which you share with yourself in a closed way.

I would say the same for many religious beliefs.

Personally I'm not willing to believe in anything unless there is at least a small reason to believe it may be true.

Even if something appears to be absolutely true, I still regard it with some questioning at the back of my mind because the mind is a very powerful vehicle and can believe in almost anything given the right "brainwashing" or "conditioning".

That other people believe in something is not enough when it comes to religious belief. Each man is his own light. You cannot convince anyone to accept what you are saying as true when you appear to invalidate people's personal right to hold whatever position they choose.


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## LOSTONE

I am not on here speaking about myself.

If I can not make a quote from the bible or speak about what others have said because it is viewed as Dogma then this has nothing to do with me.

Rozanne I never called anyone ignorant here.

I have spoken about fear because I believe this is the reason that people do not like to consider information that is opposing to their own views.

I do have an agenda Rozanne. Everyone has an agenda.

The problem is not that I have an agenda, the problem is what my agenda is.

I realize this and that is why I am not going to continue with my agenda because it would be pointless after this point.


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## Pollyanna 3098

Is this your agenda LOST ONE :mrgreen:
That if we don't follow your beliefs we will all end up in your subliminal avatar.














































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## LOSTONE

LOL.

My agenda is an Enigma. 

It is as inexplicable as I am.

And also the same goes for my avatar.

I never said I was a Christian or anything else.

Bon Voyage!


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## Guest

Pollyanna 3098 said:


> Is this your agenda LOST ONE :mrgreen:
> That if we don't follow your beliefs we will all end up in your subliminal avatar.
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Subliminal avator :shock: :lol: LOL.

Lostone can you really detach yourself and personality from your beliefs like that?,religion is intergrated into ones life....So it does have something to do with you.Thats exactly what I was talking about when I said,you can just blame it on god or that book,youve just tryed to put the whole responsibility of your words on god and the bible.Just an observation.

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## LOSTONE

Spirit yes I know it has something to do with me.

But it is inexplicable and an Enigma because I would have to write volumes of books to explain my life and who I am and my connection with any religion.

There is no point in me spending any time trying to explain.


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## Rozanne

> I do have an agenda Rozanne. Everyone has an agenda. The problem is not that I have an agenda, the problem is what my agenda is.


 I respect your right to be a Jehovahs Witness as I don't see anything that unusual about it. Given that the whole world is looking for answers in one way or another (as it is the human condition) I don't see any difference between someone taking refuge in Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, or Mormonism.

IMHO people have the needs that compel them towards religion and spirituality. I am not saying that needs are bad but that we should be aware of in ourselves because they can be very destructive and humiliating.

Acceptance by a community
Positive self-image 
To be considered good by others
Positive regard for the people we associate with
For others to CARE about our inner experiences
To be right 
To find the meaning of life
To have positive spiritual and emotional experiences
To have a sense of moral purpose
To feel we are contributing something that matters
To feel we have the power to reduce suffering of ourselves and others
To be able to express ourselves to others and be understood 
To be able to change destructive habits

Notice that a lot of those have nothing to do with ACTUALLY being a good person but merely feeling oneself to be a good person; satisfying the conscience. To actually be a positive person, you don't have to be part of any religious institution, or hold any religious beliefs. It probably helps if you don't because living in equality and acceptance is much harder when you have a label which separates you from others.

The need to be right is disturbing for everyone involved. It causes us to reject and judge people for not holding our same beliefs. Beliefs can only hold a community together at a certain level and change over time if you are on an active path.

I know I appear to be writing from the point of view of agenda. I am trying to get you to question the validity of your actions with different parameters than whether you are "right". Being "right"....is a justification for doing whatever you want and speaking however you want. It is the same old Divine Right to do as one pleases, to go against the people you say you are trying to save in the first place because you follow another authority than pain or fear feedback.

I'm not necessarily saying this is wrong, either. Under certain circumstances, I know I'll only destroy myself if I bow down to other people's demons and fears. If I want to have any strength or integrity I need to be able to accept a certain amount of backlash from others although I never enjoy it.

It's HARD to know whether people are acting appropriately or not, when they reject something.

Sometimes people act out of fear due to their resistance to love, sometimes people act out of fear due to resistance to non-loving acts.

I mean you have said that people reject what you say due to fear. I assume you think you are spreading love and that people's reactions to your message are irrational in some way.

Well, we think a lot of things about ourselves, but who is the final judge? I'm assuming that the final judge is not oneself. If it were we'd all be the saints we think of ourselves as.

In a way, I think it is necessary to try and test values and be willing to change your mind at different times.

Like, a mother, for instance, may think it is of the utmost importance that a child gets good grades. She is absolutly convinced that this will provide the child the best chance in life. Actually, on the level of love, what the child needs more than grades is emotional support.

The mother regards herself as good because she believes her way of doing things to be correct and isn't open to change. Like...if you look carefully people are telling you where you are invalidating their individuality. It's a really hard process to go through but you literally have to open yourself to the feedback and consider it from the other person's point of view.

As Jehovah's Witness, you may not be able to IMAGINE what it would be like to be a Buddhist.

There are reasons why different traditions exist, its because people see theirselves and life differently and this is a legitimate ongoing process of self-development. It should be respected as ok to change and not get to some final destination.

If I can find peace and happiness and bring peace to others, then as far as I can see that's a life which has been a pleasure and benefit to this world. To be right is separatist and will never bring peace. We have different points of view, it is the only way.

We literally occupy different places in the world. I am over here, you over there. We see things from DIFFERENT PLACES. Not the same. I suppose we try to bridge the gap in one way or another to feel a sense of unity and connection with others. In my humble opinion, this can only come from a place of LOVE. In other words respecting the internal lives of others.

None of this can make sense if you believe that the "aim" is to be right about things, or to prevent people from being lost to hell. The very assumption stops the internal lives of two people from being equal in value or worth. If you experience life from the point of view of people being equal in relationship to Life itself, or say God, or whatever you think is the common factor between us (I think it is existance in this world) equality is easier.

If people are unequal in relationship to God they cannot share in that of God (Love) with other. It is not possible to love another person if you believe yourself to be better. At some level, humans must be regarded as essentially the same for equality to exist. Not because of the methods they use to survive, but because of their needs and tendencies.

Lost one, you believe you have everlasting life. I think you intend well in your need to convert others. If you truely believe us to be going to hell...that is your experience. I don't think either you or I know the absolute answer to that question and we should equipt ourselves with courage to let that which is mysterious remain mysterious. Or allow itself to reveal itself to us in its own time.

All the best
Rozanne


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## Terri

Rozanne said:


> It is not possible to love another person if you believe yourself to be better. At some level, humans must be regarded as essentially the same for equality to exist.


I find this an interesting quote coming from you Rozanne, I believe it contradicts what you have said in your previous posts. How can their be equality if everyone is unique?

When it comes to clinging to a belief, I have to agree with spirit.
This is not a direct quote from spirit but its what I see in her posts "above all, believe in yourself"

Jas.


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## Rozanne

Jas said:


> Rozanne said:
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> I find this an interesting quote coming from you Rozanne, I believe it contradicts what you have said in your previous posts. How can their be equality if everyone is unique?
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> When it comes to clinging to a belief, I have to agree with spirit.
> This is not a direct quote from spirit but its what I see in her posts "above all, believe in yourself"
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> Jas.
Click to expand...

Hi Jasmine, 
Thankyou for asking me to write more clearly about the issue of equality, sameness and differences in people. I'm reluctant to "have an opinion" on this because it isn't something I fully understand, but there are philosophies in Quakerism, Christianity, and Hindu based religions to name a few which seek to "iron out" the the issue of equality and difference.

First of all, I'd like to look at worth and form. From what I understand, what can be observed from looking about us, form is considered linked with value/worth in most people.

By form I mean the following things:

In people:
Physical appearance
Intellectual abilities
Emotional affect
Dress sense
Class
Job descriptions 
Personality types
Styles of being
Hobbies and interests
Talents
Cuteness
Colour
Shape
Race
Culture

In objects:
Functionality
Materials
Beauty 
Quality
Style
Monetry value
Exclusivity

Etc. I think you get the idea.

There are many "forms" and we as people have a funny habit of applying worth and value to different people/objects. It appears that whether we feel we benefit from something effects how much we value it. The surgeon therefore may be treated as a Very Important Person, a criminal on the other hand is seen as having no worth as he has acted in a way which has hurt others in society.

A lot of value judgements about people are based on how "useful" they are in spite of the fact people are human beings and not comodities. Survival instinct deepens this.

I'm trying to describe these things as I see them without casting judgement; of course my observations have been of how I have regarded people as resources in the past. It is just an observation and that is how the world works on a purely animalistic/survivalist level.

Spiritual traditions seek to overcome this mismatch of perceived worth.

The main reason for this is probably the felt negative effect it has on people to be humiliated, or considered as having less worth, because their form is unattractive to others.

In Christianity the parable of the good samaritan indicates that Christ sees himself as equal to those who are humiliated or shunned. The undesirables of society. Christianity is at least meant to be an inclusive religion.

At the heart of Buddhism, the holy being is a BEGGAR who takes alms. This is symbolic of how the adept receives from another source, call it Buddha consciousness.

Err...

Right on my use of the word "same" above. I recognise that people take different forms however I believe there are certain Natural Laws in this Universe. As we are a PART of the universe, those natural laws act within our lives not as a separate thing to ourselves but also on the level of the body, personality and self.

As we all live under these conditions, I believe we have a lot in common. We are "all in the same boat". This is empathy in the negative aspect. Ie. we empathise on the level of limitation and pain. At the other end, there are forms of empathy that are related to other things with have in common than suffering. Beingness, soul-consciousness, or as the Quakers say "that of God" in every person. The "inner light".

In a sense, I don't believe a spiritual slant needs to be taken on this. Just sharing in a perceptive awareness of the world is a large source of empathy, as well as the human condition of existing "alone whilst one is with others" in the words of psychologist Winnicott.

Empathy is about sameness of experience.

If you take the forms of a saint and criminal, you'd expect their internal experience to be quite different. The saint is expected to be peaceful and harmonious, in control of his actions and moderate. The criminal is expected to be fearful, hateful of others or out of control of his impulses and actions.

On the internal level, it appears the criminal and saint have different forms of self.

It is up to others whether or not to believe in the existance of the Soul or Original Self (Beingness or Buddhamind). But if there is a common denominator between people which transcends personal differences, we would be equal in spite of our uniqueness.

These are just a few ideas I have picked up from Quakers and Brahma Kumaris. I do not expect others to necessarily buy into formless being, but according to Echhart Tolle, ultimate peace can never be found in form as all form is transitory.

If I have contradicted myself I would like to point out that I am searching. It is likely that my ideas change from time to time, and when it comes to God and the soul I am actually undecided even to myself, and therefore am not even trying to present as having a fixed view.

Equality is a value of Quakerism which has began to interest me. 
My opinion is that empathy is that which creates equality amongst people. And that empathy can be on any of the following levels of the mind:

FORM (conditional):
Body
Emotions
Perceptions
Sensations
Points of view or reasoning

FORMLESS (unconditional):
Beingness or Spirit


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## Rozanne

First of all, thanks Spirit. I get regrets after writing posts about metaphysical ideas because I think people will see me as "selling an idea". I only wanted to write a clear explanation of these philosophies, based on recent conversations with people at Quakers and Brahma Kumaris. I'm trying not to be attached to any ideas as I don't want a false God or projected ideal of what I need. It is a bit like being a skeptic that isn't willing to call oneself atheist, agnostic or theist. It's based on my philosophy that there are mysteries and I may never know the truth, at least not with my intellectual mind anyway. I believe there is a Buddha experience though, in the same way that I have read other experiences, like lucid dreaming, or astral travel, are at least tangible to those who have them.



Spirit said:


> OK need to write more.Rozanne you wrote form-conditioned,
> Formless-unconditioned.actually both are conditioned by each other.You cannot have one with out the other.


I haven't heard of this before. Could you explain?

I can "see" that there are levels of reality and that there must be some connection between oneness and individually acting autonomous beings. But it is a paradox.

My main issue is: does non-duality or Zero point actually exist? If it does, then it is REAL. If it doesn't, then all of this is fantasy.


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## CECIL

Jas said:


> How can their be equality if everyone is unique?


The words "equal" and "unequal" imply a measurement of some kind. I think that's what Rozanne was talking about in regards to form and function.

You could measure a person by their form or how attractive they are, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. That is, what one person finds beautiful may not be the same for another person. Our society tends to construct objective and standard measurements in this regard. 50 years ago women were found attractive if they were curvaceous, now the standard of beauty says women should be skeletons that resemble clothes hangers. Standards and measurements change over time and from person to person. Not only that, but the form is only one aspect of a person.

You could measure a person based on their function. How much is a person worth? How much do they contribute to the society? At the end of the day in our current system that comes down to money. So the more money you earn, the more value you have to society. Yet this system falls short too, because people contribute to the society in non-monetary ways (Think volunteering at a homeless shelter). Also, it means people who for whatever reason don't earn money have no worth.

All forms of measurement imply judgement. They are based on a system of values and each person's values are unique just as each person is unique.

Not only that, but comparing yourself to another person devalues yourself and the person. You tend to put people into boxes and label them. One way or the other, you will think of yourself as better or them as better than you. Either way it creates false perspectives.

To each their own. We know that every person is different, so we can't apply any system of measurement to them. Instead, we can simply appreciate ourselves and other people without judging. We can appreciate every person's experience as a unique expression of energy. This IMO is the core of empathy. The ability to put aside value judgements and our own personal beliefs and see/feel a person's actual experience. That's what Terrence McKenna called "the felt prescence of immediate experience" and its what holds the community together.

Have you ever just sat down on a busy street and watched people walk past? Try it some time. Just sit there and without judgement just notice each person as they pass. Don't form any opinion, just notice. Notice what they are wearing, how they are walking, what colour their hair is. Notice if they seem to be relaxed or angry or worried. Notice what they are carrying, notice how they are carrying it.

Have you ever had a conversation with someone where you didn't try to tell them what to do, or give them advice, or tell them what you think of what they are doing? Try it some time. Just sit and listen, reflect back what they are saying, trying to clarify the feelings they have about their experience. Ask questions to clarify but don't inject your own values and opinions.

Try that and you'll soon understand how we can be equal if everyone is unique


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## Terri

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## Rozanne

Hello, 
If you want to talk about it, please quotes the flaws in my reasoning from my post because otherwise I get the distinct feeling you have overlooked something.

I will quote some things here from things I wrote.

If people are unequal in relationship to God they cannot share in that of God (Love) with other. It is not possible to love another person if you believe yourself to be better. At some level, humans must be regarded as essentially the same for equality to exist. Not because of the methods they use to survive, but because of their needs and tendencies.

I have highlighted things here to clarify my original thoughts. First of all I was talking about sameness in relation to God, not sameness in relation to one another. This is explained by "the fall" of man, ie. the "human condition". It is not that we are all the same in everyway, but that we share in certain characteristics. There is not one person or organism in this world, not even psychopaths, who do not need to eat, eliminate and drink. To various degrees, people APPEAR to experience theirselves as in need of sexual relationship or stimulation. All people apparently need to sleep, have shelter, clothes in the cold weather and for temperatures to stay in a narrow band...something like 35 degrees to 42. In THOSE ways, we are the same. In other ways, what we like to do with our time, who we like to spend time with, we do differ. But on the more basic human level, there are things we have in common. To disagree with that would be to go against common sense.



> Because it implies you want everyone to be the same as you.


What amuses me about this statement is that regardless of whatever I want, the commonality of needs is there. That is a sameness which doesn't depend on the way I look at things. Unless you question whether life is real or not, and what people "need". I can't prove that. In order to survive in this world, it appears that you "need" to eat, drink and eliminate. If the world exists....

What I desire is to see life a little more like it is. Ignoring common humanity would be silly.

Actually, what you write is sort of true, in the sense that whether sameness exists or not I also DO want it to exist because alienation from the rest of humanity is hardly a way to live. If there wasn't a common thread between us all we wouldn't know how to relate.

The instinct to see myself as a part of the whole and interconnected is the drive for my looking at things. Whether that is ego or not, I'm not sure. But given that ego is usually said to be an alienation from connection with the whole, I'd say it was not. I do believe the desire to know your relationship to others, the world, stars, elements and the like, comes from a better place. And that's why I disagree with you.

But it's interesting that you should mention ego because it's only the ego which wishes to dispel the truth in a moment of pride. Truth being the actual way of things on "planet earth". I mean, if you ignore things in the environment which are evidenced in a scientific way, or common sense, what hope do you have? It's blindness to the ways of the world. If I ignored differences on the practical level that would be just as untrue as ignoring similarities. There is sameness and there is difference. Even the fact we are different from one another is a CONTINUOUS thing. That means that it is completely normal to be different and it is completely normal to be the same. It's completely robotic to think you are the very same in every way possible. That isn't what I was saying. I'm talking about Nature here. Like physics, it follows rules which are predictable. Even random decomposition is fact of what happens to an unstable element.

Alienation is by its very nature a form of ignorance. Not because it lacks insight into its "special relationship" but because it doesn't feel itself to be connected when in actual fact, it is. That's ego.

If I stayed in my house all the time and didn't go out I could come to believe that i was not connected in any way with others. I think that can be disproved easily because I'd still be using land, eating food, using heating, breathing air and playing music. It just doesn't matter how much I try to run and hide. I'm still here. We all impact on one another, the real question is how.

I don't deny being egotistical. Isn't that the human condition? I mean, if you weren't egotistical that would be really strange.


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## Rozanne

> How can their be equality if everyone is unique?


Going back to your original question, the answer depends on what you mean by equality.

Equality is a vague word. It is one of the core Quaker principles, along with Integrity, Peace and Simplicity. In some ways it is the hardest to understand because it literally goes against everything that the world is telling you all the time. Integrity on the whole is taken to mean speaking the truth and acting according to it. Peace, probably a lot to do with non-violence, both inside and out. Simplicity is usually mentioned in relation to possessions and life-style choices. But it's also related to speech/dress.

Equality....

I'm not a Quaker but after attending there for a few months my impression was basically that we all have an internal life and no person's experience is more important than anothers. There is an equality of worth and value of each individual and their experience. No person's experience is more important than yours in the sense that it is important to their experience of life. Ones own experience matters also. Both matter to a source which is above and more benevolent than ourselves. Some Ways are considered more spiritually fruitful than others in the sense that they are less destructive however.

So when you are in a meeting for reflection at Quakers after a main meeting, everyone is at a different stage, some speak more than others. Equality is expressed by sitting in a circle. By not having a hierarchy. By allowing each indivual to speak. By the rest of the group actively listening to the internal experiences of those who are speaking, that is considering it from the heart of experience. Tolerance is practised also, in the way that if someone continues to speak for a long time, that is not interfered with or stopped. No person regulates your input. You are allowed to disagree or question but in the spirit of exploration rather than debate. It's basically a system where the conscience becomes the source of guidance instead of "the rules". The rules are there to encourage responsibility. They are made by the group in an unwritten way, anyway.

In my experience, equality is inextricably linked to the perceived sharing of resources.

Going above that, however, is to realise that whether someone speaks a lot or not at all, that is not the yard-stick measurement of equality in spiritual terms. Some people need to speak more than others and if others consider their experience as equally important they may take an interest. Real equality comes from realising that whoever and however people speak, each person is equally in need of peace and as such shouldn't be invalidated on the level of equanimity.

For instance, if someone hurts me, I could believe that they are less worthy of freedom and happiness than me. On the physical level, we see happiness and peace LITERALLY in greedy terms. On the spiritual, entitlement to happiness and peace is quite the opposite, it is actually to be able to express yourself in positive, loving ways.

So equality on the psychospiritual level is more like saying "that person has an equal right to love and be loved". Cos that is the real measure of worth anyway. How much one is able to do that impacts considerably on quality of life and self-worth, irrespective of shortcomings.

As a child, I felt not being loved meant I had no worth. I continued to believe that until very recently.

Worth is so screwed up in our world. Worth is usually defined by how "useful" you are. Its a hard habit to break. I mean, who values the sociopath? Who likes people who abuse others? The more destructive people are to the way you want to live, the less their apparent value is. But seeing things purely in terms of whether others help you materially or not is itself ego-based. If you agenda is material or even emotional happiness, the world will fall away into two groups: those who help you and those who don't. If your agenda is spiritual, it doesn't have to be like that. People who argue with you and test you patience show you your limitations and just how conditional you are and how much you NEED to to across your point and be thought of as right.

It's good to claim back your right to say your point of view. But personally, I find it disturbing to need to. It would be nice to not have to do that and be at peace with things as they exist here and now.

I find myself needing to add what I want to say, as if the other's expression isn't worth something in and of itself. When it comes down to it, words are a form of art and if you think art needs to be changed or don't like what others create, you become a critic of the highest order. Each expression is like musical waves. You can't change what has been. We are all musicians playing over one another, or telling the other to "change the tune". But its being a musician that counts, not your style.

Wanting everyone to be compatible is like desiring people to be walking to the same drum beat. I find myself doing that. It's why I talk a lot. To finish what others didn't say as if it wasn't good enough. In effect, we are all like birds singing songs that don't need justification. Conversations are constructs based on space time, the need to get somewhere, the need to be aggreeable to each other's agenda. All transitory games of getting what you want. The voice isn't only a way of asking "please do this for me, please do that, I don't like that, I don't like this, I need this, oh my experience is this". I mean, it's hard to really add anything to converstion anyway. But just letting the voice be a neutral bird-call of beingness is probably better than even speaking with purpose. Purpose is like needing to get something across and reminding yourself the world just isn't good enough as it is.


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