# Martin and others, things to consider before marriage ......



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

From the NYTimes:

*Questions Couples Should Ask (Or Wish They Had) Before Marrying

Published: December 17, 2006
Relationship experts report that too many couples fail to ask each other critical questions before marrying. Here are a few key ones that couples should consider asking:*

Field Notes: Marriage Is Not Built on Surprises (Dec. 17, 2006)

1) Have we discussed whether or not to have children, and if the answer is yes, who is going to be the primary care giver?

2) Do we have a clear idea of each other?s financial obligations and goals, and do our ideas about spending and saving mesh?

3) Have we discussed our expectations for how the household will be maintained, and are we in agreement on who will manage the chores?

4) Have we fully disclosed our health histories, both physical and mental?

5) Is my partner affectionate to the degree that I expect?

6) Can we comfortably and openly discuss our sexual needs, preferences and fears?

7) Will there be a television in the bedroom?

8) Do we truly listen to each other and fairly consider one another?s ideas and complaints?

9) Have we reached a clear understanding of each other?s spiritual beliefs and needs, and have we discussed when and how our children will be exposed to religious/moral education?

10) Do we like and respect each other?s friends?

11) Do we value and respect each other?s parents, and is either of us concerned about whether the parents will interfere with the relationship?

12) What does my family do that annoys you?

13) Are there some things that you and I are NOT prepared to give up in the marriage?

14) If one of us were to be offered a career opportunity in a location far from the other?s family, are we prepared to move?

15) Do each of us feel fully confident in the other?s commitment to the marriage and believe that the bond can survive whatever challenges we may face?

---------------------------------

These are all good points. The most successful marriages I've come across -- well the couples really asked each other these questions. Of course there is compromise in everything. But, I thought this was interesting.

D


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

LOL. 

Only in America can there be a booklet on what to say and do and expect from your potential spouse before marriage. My giddy aunt!!!

I yearn for the days when people were just people, and rode the rollercoaster of life without a manual on where and when the highs and lows were going to come from.

Saying that, if me and my potential spouse were robots, I would absorb this information data very carefully.

DREAMER!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Axel19 (Aug 11, 2004)

How many do you need to get before you can go ahead and marry your partner?


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

You have to score over 65% before you are allowed to go ahead, Axel. 8)

I lived with my guy for 7 years before marrying him. Sometimes it's nice to have little suprises left for when you get married.

Like the fact he's actually a she

just kidding.

We'd covered those points in about the first month of meeting. I can't understand anyone who would not address such important subjects?


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

Well if you're going to enter into a contract with another human being such as marriage why not treat it as such and get some facts before taking the leap? Not romantic. Divorce is a whole lot less romantic. Not that I would probably ever discuss some of these things. Is there anything about my family that annoys you? Wow. I wonder how some of my ex boyfriends would answer that. lol.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Martinelv said:


> LOL.
> 
> Only in America can there be a booklet on what to say and do and expect from your potential spouse before marriage. My giddy aunt!!!
> 
> ...


Oh for crying out loud Martin. I thought it was interesting that it said DISCLOSE ANY ILLNESSES, cough.

There isn't a booklet for marriage, this was some study done by people AFTER they married and what makes for a more successful marriage. Certainly not all of these questions are of concern. Bottom line is "birds of a feather" will get together. This is no surprise.

But literally, Martin, in your first marriage (and I promise I'm not attacking you) did you not say that your wife "changed" or "expected more", there were financial issues.

I do advocate living together, in the same place for some time if that is feasible. You learn a helluva lot about your mate and yourself.

MARTIN you :twisted:

And indeed I agree with enngirl - marriage is a contract. It is a CIVIL contract for anyone. I'm separated. I didn't go into my marriage blind, I thought I could accept compromises. My husband thought the same. It didn't fly.

It isn't a rule, this was just some summary of some survey, the results of which were published (as "field notes") in the NYTimes. OMG.

WHY DOES EVERYONE HATE AMERICA.

MARTIN! :wink:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Oh, here in the US, there is a divorce rate of I believe 50%. Hmm.

Also, perhaps I have a vested interest in this, my parents separated when I was very small and never spoke to each other after that. Neither of them were meant to marry or be parents.

Personal agenda, I guess, but I FOUND THIS IN THE PAPER TODAY, ACH. 8)


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

g-funk said:


> We'd covered those points in about the first month of meeting. I can't understand anyone who would not address such important subjects?


Amen. Bless you g-funk.

Also, do you know, in many murders, I believe MOST murders, it is one spouse offing the other, LOL. OMG. :lol: No doubt about the TV in the bedroom. I'd have a fit.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

This is so depressing. I would do all these things naturally. In my past relationship it was my boyfriend who didn't care when I wanted to fairly arrange the chores, it was my boyfriend who didn't want to talk about it when I mentioned finances, it was him that ignored me when i said I have an illness, I am dissociatied.....perhaps I am too unwell to be considering now, but I want a husband. They don't give you a free husband when you buy the manual do they?


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Miss Starling said:


> They don't give you a free husband when you buy the manual do they?


Ah, woman, LOL. I laugh, but I'm also sad about this. I have to have faith in ONE thing, that one day I will find a companion, a lover, a husband to spend the rest of my life with. I don't know how it will happen but I have to believe in that.

A good relationship has always helped me feel better, given me something to buoy me up.

*Oh, and Martin, re: the Brits ... how many of those Royals is it that can't get their marriages (and affairs) in order. Wouldn't it have been jolly good if Prince Charles had been a tad more honest about dear Camilla?

"Well, it depends on what the definition of love is." Is that what he said? He always loved Camilla. That's a rather awful way to go into a marriage.*

God save the Queen! :shock:
I miss the Queen Mum. She's one in that family that seemed like a genuinely kind person.
Oh, and I'm sure this will make eveyone puke, but I find Tony Blair quite dreamy, and the Brit accent doesn't hurt. But I think I like Hugh Laurie's looks better. Scruffy is good.. But Blair is so ... sharp looking. Let's ignore the politics. I'm just looking. 8)

L, 
D
Hang in Miss Starling.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> WHY DOES EVERYONE HATE AMERICA.


LOL. Do you really want me to answer that question? No, so I shan't.

Yes, my marriage disintegrated for a numbr of reasons, or excuses. We had a blissful time living together for the hideously long epoch of six months, before it all started to go tits up. The sex was fantastic, we both had butterflies in our stomachs when we say each other....etc. Then reality hit home. Her stoner brother came to live with us, slobbed around the house, did nothing, ate everything, stole from us - which caused a few arguments, because (naturually I guess) Eva didn't say a word to him about it. Then her grandmother died. We got married. Then a few weeks later our mutual friend died from Leukemia. Then her mother split up with her father-in-law and came to live with us. We argued all the time. I starting drinking heavily. I got told off for buying a magazine when we should be saving the money for a house (we'd been married two months.). Discovered I had Leukemia as well. I paid 95% of the bills, worked 15 hours a day, and she decided to quit her job and start studying again (she alreay had a degree). I resumed my panic attack cycle. I told my bosses at work to f-off and got sacked. Eva threw me out.

Phew. There, got that out of my system. Saying that, old-timers probably know all about this as I gave a running commentary at the time. I'm slightly sad about it, still, but hey, life goes on. Scarily, if anyone has seen that recent film - Inside Man with Denzil Washington and Jodie Foster (with blond hair), my ex-wife is the SPITTING image of her. Drool. I still notice women who look like her. Hmm.....oh well.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Not in this country, no. But I hear it is compolsory in some other Commonwealth countries - such as Canada and Oz. I'm not too sure that a little prior counseling would have saved my marriage. Not much you do can to pre-empt or avoid deaths, illness and scum-sucking in-laws etc.

I'm going to give that Geography Cup a go. I would be amused to see how the American's do. It might come to a shock to the system to actually find out that there are other countries outside Uncle Sam, besides Iraq and the Emerald Isle (where, all day, every day, red haired danny boy runs through fields of barley with his red-haired sweetheart, etc).

Disclaimer#6596876. I am not insinuating that americans are stupid. Just a little, well, insular. I back up this astonishing claim with this (true) anecdote: I knew a double Phd professor of Microbiology in the states, and she did not know that the UK was an Island. She also (and this is the god's honest truth) did not realise that French, German, Italian etc were actual languages. She thought they were 'accent's' of english. Watched too many war films methinks.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Martinelv said:


> Not in this country, no. But I hear it is compolsory in some other Commonwealth countries - such as Canada and Oz. I'm not too sure that a little prior counseling would have saved my marriage. Not much you do can to pre-empt or avoid deaths, illness and scum-sucking in-laws etc.
> 
> I'm going to give that Geography Cup a go. I would be amused to see how the American's do. It might come to a shock to the system to actually find out that there are other countries outside Uncle Sam, besides Iraq and the Emerald Isle (where, all day, every day, red haired danny boy runs through fields of barley with his red-haired sweetheart, etc).
> 
> Disclaimer#6596876. I am not insinuating that americans are stupid. Just a little, well, insular. I back up this astonishing claim with this (true) anecdote: I knew a double Phd professor of Microbiology in the states, and she did not know that the UK was an Island. She also (and this is the god's honest truth) did not realise that French, German, Italian etc were actual languages. She thought they were 'accent's' of english. Watched too many war films methinks.


Oh, Martin, Martin, Martin, I AM sorry about your marriage ... but ...

1. To Cloverstone. If one goes to church/synagogue, etc. I believe one is required to have some degree of counseling by the pastor, minister, priest, etc. I used to work at a Synagogue (Reconstructionist) -- there are 8 million different versions of every religion! -- where the Rabbi was very reluctant to have marriages between someone born into the Jewish Faith and someone not.

HE DID MARRY said people, but did extensive counseling (I believe most he married -- one usually studied Judaism and actually after a year or more of study had a bar or bat mitzvah of sorts! HE PERSONALLY did not feel comfortable with that. He wrote several books on marriage/family, and this one raised the question, "But How Do We Raise The Children?" Rabbi Steven Carr Reuben. He was indeed a mensche sp?

If one is not a regular member of a Church and chooses to marry more informally or have a civil marriage by a Justice of the Peace, no counseling is required. I think Brittney Spears' marriage (that lasted 48 hours or so, in Las Vegas?) would count as an extreme on that one, LOL.

*Again, it is not required by law MARTIN, but it is helpful to many couples I know who are indeed Church members, etc. And indeed there ARE marriage counselors who help w/marriages in trouble.*



> Not much you do can to pre-empt or avoid deaths, illness and scum-sucking in-laws etc.


You DID have a rough time, especially at the start of your marriage! However, I can tell you that every single thing you've mentioned has occured to friends I know. "Death, illness, and scum-sucking in-laws" are PART OF LIFE, LOL.

I can name on best friend of mine, with two beautiful kids (one in college, one in high school) who in this past few years ...
her husband got prostate cancer, her mother had a stroke, her mother-in-law died leaving her to deal with "that mean little man" who was her husband (and settle the estate).

Oh while her mother had the stroke, her Dad (getting demented) was scared and alone and her parents had just moved near them (thank God). Her husband, Bob, stayed EVERY NIGHT for about a month with Joe (her Dad). Still got up and went to work, so did she, kids still went to school.

Then just about 2 months ago, one of her brother's, whom she and her son especially love dearly, was killed by a drunk driver.

Meantime, they have managed through all of this, and this wasn't a slow year, LOL. I have known her since college and followed this marriage/children, etc. all 24 years. They love each other dearly.

This is the question one asks -- what about Chris Reeve -- he was completely immobile and yes dying for 7 years. He used to say how furious he was to not be able to make love to his wife. Whether she was faithful or not, she never left his side. It's no one's business if she sought any solace any where else, and he probably told her to look for it -- yet, no one expects the misery of old age, of death, of crazy relatives, of sick children, of financial difficulties.

One thing -- your wife should have said she was planning to return to school, at which point the house would be out of the picture. That is VERY important.

OK, end of that, but everything you listed happens to everyone. You have to have some sort of general plan.



> Disclaimer#6596876. I am not insinuating that americans are stupid. Just a little, well, insular. I back up this astonishing claim with this (true) anecdote: I knew a double Phd professor of Microbiology in the states, and she did not know that the UK was an Island. She also (and this is the god's honest truth) did not realise that French, German, Italian etc were actual languages. She thought they were 'accent's' of english. Watched too many war films methinks.


Yes you are INSINUTATING AMERICANS ARE STUPID, LOLOLOL. And a good number are. But so are a lot of people in this world.

And I DON'T believe this story of the professor. That aside, I can't believe that any average citizen of most average countries is any more or less saavy than anyone else. The average person is concerned with his/her immediate world of work/family/kids/debt/home and fun.

8) 
Martin you are incorrigible. What is sad is that from what you describe of your marriage, very few things were addressed re: future plans. That's what that list is about, what counseling is about. The future is an unknown. But I know couples who have been through everything married for 50+ years -- very sick children -- that REALLY challenges a marriage.

I also know couples who have been through Hell who lasted a very short time as well.

Cheers,
Yes the geography game looks excellent. I will say our school system stinks here -- public schools. Don't know enough about the Brit system to compare, but I will wager the Brits may very well do better on the geography challenge. I'll have to see.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

God I can't shut up.

Forgot, my friend had post-partum depression and panic after both kids. Her husband took care of virutally EVERYTHING around the house for a couple months both times. Thank God her Mom was their too, but these things happen. She works full time, STILL, and so does he.

She got better. Hadn't had probs before or since, but he had to run the house, and he nearly lost his mind.

He did not leave her because she was very ill. Also, one pregnancy was extremely difficult, etc., etc., etc.

THAT is married life. What neither of my parents wanted to deal with.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Cloverstone said:


> No Martin it may not have saved your marriage but it may have actually stopped it.


Yup. And for me, over the years, I've finally started realizing when I try to imagine that a man is "the one", overlook things I can't live with, and things he'd go mad over about me.

Cloverstone, it sounds as though you have a wonderful marriage, and also an excellent Minister to talk things out with.

You know, I remember years back ... I mean in the 1900s (oh, I'm old) ... when there had to be "blood tests" before marriage, I assume to rule out STDs! I imagine that was interpreted as invasion of privacy and don't know when that stopped.

But the key thing is honesty, or one of a million key things that make a marriage work. I'm glad you found your soul mate, Clover.

8)
Peace O' the Season
D


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> No Martin it may not have saved your marriage but it may have actually stopped it.


It would have stopped my friend dying, me developing leukemia, her ridiculous family burdoning us, etc, etc?

I'm not making excuses, but I have no regrets. I cherish the memories of the stupendously happy times we had together. The rest of it is just misfortune, and forgotten.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> No decision you have made could possibly change these experiences for a lack of a better word.


Absolutely, so what's the point in marriage counseling?

I think it would be better, rather than focussing of politically correct issues, and IF we had to have any prior counseling at all, it might as well be something like - 'Life Counseling'. How to deal with certain circumstances, traumas, decisions, compromise and trauma. But then, isn't the what our parents should teach, and what we learn by experience?


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## Terri (Dec 19, 2006)

3333


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

I'm either incredibly stupid (probably), niave (definately), sentimental (rabidly) or am missing the point.

How far do we go, Clover, to discover the differences between two people who are going to get married? Their opinions on the state of Russian politics? Or whether they are going to share the house-work? And who decides the questions?

I think it very sad that we lose the exiting (and possibly) devastating implications of marrying someone that you fight, love, agree and disagree with. I can't imagine anything worse than a smooth ride. And the boredom that would follow. A large portion of infidelity is caused by this.

Differences between people is what makes life interesting. If we were to point them out before hand then nobody would ever get married.

And above all - it would put doubt in each others mind.


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## Terri (Dec 19, 2006)

3333


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## Terri (Dec 19, 2006)

3333


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> but we can discuss hypotheticals and get an idea how it would be dealt with.


Like what? Give me an example, if it's not to personal.


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## Terri (Dec 19, 2006)

3333


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Martinelv said:


> > but we can discuss hypotheticals and get an idea how it would be dealt with.
> 
> 
> Like what? Give me an example, if it's not to personal.


In your case Martin, there is a very specific question that seemed to involve finances ... Clover I agree with you here and it seems people are missing the point.

You don't have to go to marriage counseling, but you need to know if you are compatible for God's sake or you're in for a nasty divorce and pain.

*Finances: Who is the primary breadwinner in the family? It seems your wife literally surprised you within the span of 6 months that she planned to return to school. That was completely unplanned. Then she also wanted a house. Also, did she want a child or not. Do you? A child/children change your future considerably. Are you going to save for university, and how. What will you agree NOT to buy. IN A HUGE way.
*

I would gather this woman and your wife were both atheists. But of course that would come out early on. But what if one, who is religious feels that giving to the Church is better than putting money in savings, etc.

Before getting married, it always helps to look a tad into the future to see if both of you are heading in the same direction.

Martin, I don't quite understand what you don't see here. And this is nothing new. It's the result of the whole "feel good" generation mentality that we can do whatever we wish without thinking. Immediate self-gratification. We are particularly guilty of that here in the US.

(I digress, but yesterday, when everyone is crabbing about the environment, in the span of 15 minutes, I saw two HUGE SUVs that probably get 2 miles per gallon, drive up next to me. One woman in the passenger side tossed a full cup of coffee out the passenger window. In another car, someone tossed their cigarette out the window, along with a plastic soda can.)

*Yes, love should be spontaneous and falling in love is, but the one question Cloverstone asked is "Can I live with this? ... for years .... you need to ask yourself. *

And yes people change during a marriage, especially during larger crises, however, you can pretty much tell things about someone before then.

What I find unsettling to say the least is a friend whose fiance didn't mention he had herpes ... I know, one can live with it ... that's fine -- but I don't care to have it, and it can cause problems with a woman if she wants a child. But one can infect someone without knowing it. Well, she had WAITED to get married, as this was apparently his value as well, to have sex with him.

She of course got Herpes. Then HE ACCUSED HER of sleeping around. It's too complicated a story with much left out. But the end result was very complex, divorce, etc. But now her having Herpes makes future dating MORE difficult -- she's honest, and has gotten dumped.

The problem here isn't herpes it's HONESTY, that can affect the person.

Also, relatives moving in. I know couples who make a clear decision that that WON'T happen. They will find an alternative first, or make every effort, especially if they know a relative is driving someone else crazy.

You have to know someone's character before getting married. Dating the person, one usually gets all of this info anyway.

I don't why you see this as "Politically Correct" and not-spontaneous. Many people aren't meant to get married. Those who truly want to be are very dedicated to their marriages. Some need help to make a decision. It's a free world. No one is making anyone discuss these problems, but there are ALWAYS questions on disciplining children that aren't discussed before a child is born, etc.

Oh, I won't go on.

I'm glad you had some happiness in your marriage Martin, but from what you describe, it went sour fairly early on, and you were only married six months.

Sorry.
Cheers,
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Also, you can't look 50 years into the future. You look at several years ahead, the reassess. Just to avoid misery. But the big questions that are listed are important. I've been there. YOU've been there. You were surprised by something that shouldn't have been a suprise. Your wife should have told you about going back to school, and/or, could you not have discussed that that wasn't a good decision at the time.

If the two of you couldn't resolve house vs. school... well... that's trouble off the bat, that should have been discussed before the marriage. One or both of you wasn't honest about some things.

Unfortunate.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

I truely don't think, for once, that I'm missing the point is.

I repeat - how on earth can you legislate for the sort of thing that I went through. Isn't that just life, and you cope with it the best (or worst) way tou can. Even though my marriage was a disaster, in the end, I'm not going to be forced to go to a meeting and sit in front of a psychology graduate going over how he/she thinks we should resolve our 'possible' future issues. I can just see it - me and the ex-wife, just as we are going to have a row - whipping out the handbook and everything calming down. That's such nonsense, and a little crap, in IMHO. You read manuals to figure out how to assemble an IKEA shelf or how to fix a car - and no - the analogy is not the same.

And to your point that you don't have to do to marriage counseling, that was how this whole debate started. In some countries it's compolsory!!!!!! And why is this not compolsory to co-habiting couples? Sure, divorce is a messy business, but heartbreat is heartbreak, and you can't legislate for that.

I'm not against post-marriage guidance, not at all. But I'm really bothered that you have to have counselling before you even start.

Don't you agree that pre-marriage counselling, even if it went swimmingly, would plant seeds of doubt in peoples minds? I mean, I can imagine sitting at one of these sesssions, going through all the possible 'hypothetic' problems that we might encounter, and thinking, "S**t ! I didn't realise there were so many ways for a marriage to fail.'

Am I the only one who believes that you learn (if you choose to) by experience?



> but you need to know if you are compatible for God's sake or you're in for a nasty divorce and pain.


That's why we lived in sin for six months.



> Who is the primary breadwinner in the family? It seems your wife literally surprised you within the span of 6 months that she planned to return to school. That was completely unplanned. Then she also wanted a house. Also, did she want a child or not. Do you? A child/children change your future considerably. Are you going to save for university, and how. What will you agree NOT to buy. IN A HUGE way.


Baffled. Truely baffled by this. Are you saying all this would have been picked up by marriage counseling? Do this counseling also involve an in-depth psychological profile to determine whether you are going to turn into a psycho-bitch? It's almost like trying to determine which types of horses are best for cross-breeding, to produce a horse that will become a top-notch race winner, or gentically breeding the pefect child! It's rather disturbing. I am against governmental intereference of all types. It's none of their business.

What next? Sexual counseling for homsexuals? Descrimination classes for ethnic minorities?

And, to finish my rant before I go home: Who the HELL has the right to impose this upon us?


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Martinelv said:


> I truely don't think, for once, that I'm missing the point is.
> 
> I repeat - how on earth can you legislate for the sort of thing that I went through. Isn't that just life, and you cope with it the best (or worst) way tou can. Even though my marriage was a disaster, in the end, I'm not going to be forced to go to a meeting and sit in front of a psychology graduate going over how he/she thinks we should resolve our 'possible' future issues. I can just see it - me and the ex-wife, just as we are going to have a row - whipping out the handbook and everything calming down. That's such nonsense, and a little crap, in IMHO. You read manuals to figure out how to assemble an IKEA shelf or how to fix a car - and no - the analogy is not the same.
> 
> ...


Martin, I really don't think you get the point at all. No, marriage counseling in your marriage would have done nothing. And it seems no one though about the future BEFORE the marriage. It didn't have to be a counselor, you and she didn't think ahead.

One key question, which is a personal sore spot for me is, do we want children? how many? who will be the primary caregiver? how will we raise them, discipline them? That is a huge challenge to a marriage. A couple who is co-habitating can walk out the door whenever he/she wishes. A married couple with children is not in the same situation, especiallly when there is a child involved.

That alone, at minimum, should be taken into consideration.

I don't see how you can't see that not deciding on where the finances would go in 6 months shouldn't have been a surprise, unless your wife lost her job and needed to go back to school, etc.

Children. There's one BIG reason to discuss THAT ahead of time.

And if you've been married for some time, there are many, many, many decisions you will be glad to find your spouse is on the same page with you.

No, counseling for you would not have served a purpose. You're coming from a different POV. And I think you understand, but don't care. And that is your RIGHT.

Sigh,
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

What Cloverstone said. I think we posted at the same time. And she has the successful marriage! 8)


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Martin said:


> Do this counseling also involve an in-depth psychological profile to determine whether you are going to turn into a psycho-bitch?


I missed this sentence.

Martin, you are blaming the failure of the marriage in this statement on your ex-wife. No one suddenly becomes a "psycho-bitch", they don't. A leopard doesn't changes his/her spots. You were who you were, and she was who she was, personality wise when you were living together.

And Martin, you were Martin before all this, and are STILL the Martin we know and ... love. 

I have been in enough relationships to know when something isn't working. Fairly soon -- often on a first date. As I mentioned, I have frequently "purposely ignored" certain traits in a person -- to my own detriment. But as Cloverstone said, if you ask yourself, "Can I live with this, long-term?" and the answer is "No" well, move on. Most of the time, well, I've been correct every time.

I didn't go to a counselor to find it out. What I found out is my need for companionship and intimacy ... well, I've been willing to sell my soul to the Devil for it, even if it were at severe emotional cost to me or the other person.

I am trying not to do that anymore.

As they say, I'd rather be on my own, than in a miserable relationship.

But there are many YOUNG people, who haven't had as much experience in relationships who need some guidance. They don't think to ask the same questions.

*
Question:
Your wife didn't turn psycho on you. She couldn't have. She was the same person. I'm curious as to who proposed marriage and why?*

Not attacking you. Curious.
Some people think marriage will change someone for the BETTER. That ain't realistic either.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Sorry, I'm in a rush - I'll reply in the new year.



> Some people think marriage will change someone for the BETTER


LOL. Yes, why is that. And, children apart, what's the point of it!!

HAPPY CHRISTMAS GUYS!


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Marriage exists because we freely wish to _give _ourselves - not be stuck with, not have them - but we wish to give ourselves to them for as long as we both shall live. Its an expression of love so strong that it commands fidelity. Even in swinging nudist colonies, people naturally gravitated towards monogamous partners after only a couple of weeks. Hormones, sex, they're all good. They ebb and flow, but the kind of love and compatibility one gets married for is deeper. Its a choice and its choiceless. Its the kind of chemistry thats so strong that it seems to be fate. If you choose the right person, you look at a life without them and see only what you'd be missing. You cant help but want to be with them, and yet you also _freely_ give yourself to them as an equal. When done right, it can come very close to unconditonal love, the love that all people seek. Marriages fail because one of the two partners prizes something more than that. Children naturally feel secure and whole in a good marriage. If you focus on the marriage, children just work out. This isnt a mathematical certainty - my parents have a good marriage but treat their children rather badly - but it is still the foundation for a solid childhood.

And if its alright for me to ever so gently step in, ladies, I understand why Martin is taking umbridge. He doesnt want to look back with regrets on the whole matter. What if? scenarios dont ever add to anyone's peace of mind. You know, I dont know if manuals would have done that much good. Some people probably answer these things as they hope they would react, rather than taking into account their own frailty. Self-reporting of flaws is not a strength of human beings. I think its really important to just admit that whether or not one takes these quizzes, one may still end up married - prepared or unprepared - and the real question is, when your faced with the proposition of placing something before your spouse, or your pondering your wedding, or your actually making the vows - does unconditional love trump all other concerns in your heart? If you can say yes at any of these moments, it bodes well, whether married, engaged, or just thinking. If you have to say no, take quick look at why exactly you think something else is more important, and whether you want to be a better person. If you do, fire up a quick prayer and open up your heart. Good things can and do happen in this life, and they _can_ last a lifetime. Nobility and goodness still exist, and they exist in the hearts of those who want them. "Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock, and it shall be opened to you".

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Just a thought. As a woman I am inclined to be more focussed on the children than the relationship...So the thought of going into marriage only concerned with loving the man with tunnel vision doesn't resonate with me. For me it is this:

Man----->Woman------>Children------->Pets (tehe)

The woman is giving herself to the man by allowing him to put his arms around her lovingly. Her withdrawing love I guess would be to withdraw herself from him, or not allow him to govern her life lovingly. While she allows him to love her, her eyes are not so much on him, although she is deeply grateful, but the children. You have to wonder what the man gets out of this, but my conclusion is that a good man just loves to love. Protecting and loving a woman generously comes naturally to him and his woman's welfare is always in the forefront of his mind. This is how he makes love to her, thinking only of her enjoyment. She opens to him and allows him to take control and everything runs smoothly. It's so easy, so beautiful, it is sad to think this harmonious relationship so often goes wrong.


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Dear Miss Starling, 
There are two points I feel are important to bring up: (1) First of all, your biological clock is making your body "scream for babies" at this point of your 20s, and so you may be slightly biased. (2) Men have the innate need to feel appreciated - not just as human beings - but looked up to, admired. Women have an innate need to feel protected and cherished. If either one of these things is missing, the marriage and consequently the children will suffer. Lastly, these qualities dont really have to be thought about - they're programmed in you. If you marry the right man, you'll want to admire him, allow him to govern, defend, and cherish you and your children. And in turn, he'll feel appreciated by you and continue to strive to provide excellence for his family. And he and you will naturally feel a deep bond with your children. Deeper than even with your spouse, probably. But keeping the love alive in the marriage itself, so long as it doesnt impinge on the expression of the children's own lives, is just great in general for you, family morale, and teaching children that love does exist and _can_ last, and so can great marriages and families.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Homeskooled said:


> (2) Men have the innate need to feel appreciated - not just as human beings - but looked up to, admired.
> 
> And he and you will naturally feel a deep bond with your children. Deeper than even with your spouse, probably. But keeping the love alive in the marriage itself, so long as it doesnt impinge on the expression of the children's own lives, is just great in general for you, family morale, and teaching children that love does exist and _can_ last, and so can great marriages and families.
> 
> ...


Yeah there was something inconsistant in what I wrote. As you well know, a good man _is_ appreciated and admired by a woman. She does look up to him. He really needn't strive for that if he has married the right wife ie a grateful woman and is a good man. It's just that there is a nagging thing inside me that says, okay, I am admire him fully, every cell in my body is like an eye that drinks up his beauty, but really, we are here for the kids.

And I believe the success of the marriage and therefore the family is driven by the man. So the man is not being overlooked in his role at all. The body is the woman's eye, just remember that. It is what she feels from her husband that makes the world of difference. Generousity is _felt_ not seen. Perhaps that is another difference between a man and a woman? I don't know.

There was one final thing, but I have forgotten what it was....

Oh yeah. At uni one of my lecturers once told us this:

Women, when asked who they would throw overboard if they were stuck in a boat with their husband and their baby, and had to sacrifice one in order to survive, tend to throw out the man.

Men, when asked who they would throw overboard, they usually choose the baby.

The children are more important to the woman, and the woman more important to the man.

So I'd say you are biased because you are a man!

This is the thing, I don't come from a secure family - it is completely dysfunctional - but I hypothesise that there will be great problems in a marriage if the man is jealous of the love his wife has for the children. Her love of them is his success and glory. That pride should fill his cup.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

miss starling said:


> Women, when asked who they would throw overboard if they were stuck in a boat with their husband and their baby, and had to sacrifice one in order to survive, tend to throw out the man.
> 
> Men, when asked who they would throw overboard, they usually choose the baby.
> 
> The children are more important to the woman, and the woman more important to the man.


Just caught this, sorry haven't read everyone's responses and Martin hasn't answered my question. :evil: 8)

But here is the innate fact. In a catastrophe of any sort, say on the Titanic ... the famous term is "Women and children first!" and I know many man, well many parents who would die for their children. Men and women.

And the reason we save the women and children is very basic.

I have my same example to trot out. You need more women than men to make babies ... one man can make ten women pregant. So you can let 9 men sink with the Titanic and you'll still get 10 babies (hopefully all healthy and happy.) If you threw 9 women off the Titanic (and yes, this is the metaphor for Life), had one woman left, and 10 men. Well it would take quite a while to repopulate. The nine men could all mate with the one woman but she'd end up with probably one baby, maybe twins, etc., but only every 9 months.

Also, we save the children, because they are the future.

Yes, men and women are very different, for a reason. Many here have touched on the important points. We each serve different purposes, our brains OUR different, etc.,etc. However, we complement each other. There ARE happy marriages, there ARE happy children, there ARE good endings to peoples' lives.

It helps if we take the effort to "make it so." If we don't give a hoot, well, things won't happen by magic.

I hope I've made some sense, I'm typing very fast and the tea is boiling.

L,
D


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Thanks for backing me up Dreamer.

I have to admit, I have been thinking about this thread in the last day and whether or not I am right in my view of things.

Here were my thoughts:

The model of the family I describe above is best represented by a picture I have in my mind: a baby being held by it's mother and the father holding the mother holding the child. He has one arm round the mother and the other arm round the child - but the mother is still the one holding the baby.

Clearly the father has a relationship with the children also. It is not only the mother, but the difference is that the primary responsibility of the mother is to care for the children, whereas the man's primary responsibility is to protect.

I admit I have stripped down the concept of the family to it's bare bones, and people/relationships/families are far more complex than that. People do not have just one purpose in a family, but many. Even so, I would rather go into a marriage where my husband considered his primary purpose to provide and protect than into a marriage where my husband was unreliable and spent most of his time out socialising and spending money. Likewise, I would not be satisfied if caring for the children didn't rest mainly with myself - it would not sit well with me if I went out to work and my husband looked after the children.

I suppose most marriages/families are based on this to one extent or another depending on the character traits of the parents, how they relate to each other and also to their children.

I would however rather live an extreme version of this than isolate my children from the marriage but being too concerned with the relationship itself.

Have you ever seen Wife Swap? There was a very good example of this on the UK version. A couple from Norwich with an only son called Zacharias. The child had no priority in the house whatsoever. His mother was inspired by the Japanese style apparently, and lived to serve her husband, *really for his own ends.* To simply be acknowledged as king of the house over and over again.

When the poor child came home from school, he was left to entertain himself *on his own* while his mother entertained his father for 2 whole hours, by which time much of the boys evening had gone. No doubt this couple had a strong marriage ---- but what is the point of a procreative marriage if not to support and love the children within it?
I make exception for marriages without children because those are probably different and can be solely about unconditional love between two people without it impinging on other people.

I believe that Homeskooled has decribed a more mascilinised view of marriage, where the relationship is rock solid and authoritative, but remote from the children of the family.

And I think that my idea was pretty extreme in its emphasis on mother being the heart of the household, where the children take priority. In this model, I don't believe the children would be isolated, but it almost requires a superhuman husband who has no emotional needs of his own and only lives to support his woman. My ex was very much like that and I suppose that it why I now lean towards that view.

But no doubt there are problems in both models. And one must find a compromise....


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