# Cycling? What's going on? Janine?



## squish_is_me (Jun 5, 2005)

OK I have noticed that my anxiety is cycling! On a monthly basis sometimes even more. For the past several weeks I have been totally 100... ok 90 -98% fine! Seriously totally DR free almost Anxiety free! This has happened a few times before. And when I go down I go waaay down! Because of this I wondered for a while if I was bipolar.. I however do NOT have episodes of mania! I do not have extreme ups! My ups are when I am normal for the most part! We all have higher ups than usual sometimes, that holds true for me. my lows arent horribly horribly low just feeling down and out, anxiety kicks in, DR kicks in, and I get panickey and freaked out feeling... which of course sorta makes me feel depressed. Not as much depressed as on edge and unable to relax which makes me unhappy. 
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway. So I guess these cycles relate to my menstral cycle? I mean last month when I hit my down it was the day before I started my cycle. I felt better after 2 days and my anxiety and DR went away totally after 2 weeks. Now almost 3 weeks latter I am starting to feel a little anxious again. which makes sense since I tend to run on a 38 - 45 day cycle instead of a 28 day cycle like most. but is it really the cycle?
I have been thinking for a while now I just need to go see a psychiatrist and get some anxiety meds and be done with it. ... but then when I have my ups I feel totally fine! So I start thinking why see someone... even though I know I will have downs. Sooooooooooo... should I really be going to talk to my OB? Would she know what is up? I mean BC makes me feel more nuts so I dont want on that. 
Beyond that is there a greater reason why my DR keeps comming back like this? Is there something further psychologically going on? should I go see a psychiatrist? I wonder sometimes if the DR comes back with my anxiety only because I am thinking about it and expecting it too! I mean for 2 weeks now I have been saying... is it comming back today? I mean not all day I just think it when I wake up. I try not to be that way but it is so hard! It keeps comming and going! Makes it hard to trust that it will really stay gone! you know?
Any thoughts?????


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

Sounds like classic PMS to me (pre-menstrual syndrome).


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2005)

The problem is not WHAT you describe, but THAT you are describing it.

IF we are that tuned in, to write a detailed (and very observant and interesting) post about the specifics of how we feel moment by moment, we are really screwing ourselves.

We MUST stop paying attention to the details of the symtpoms.

We FEEL them. But we do have to STUDY them. And studying them is what keeps us so trapped inside the experience.


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## jake (Jul 12, 2005)

if it was me I would ask a doc like that about it b/cuz hormones can really wreak havoc for sure. Then you end up with anticapating anxiety. You might really get some relief from seeing the doc who treats the women's hormone and issues. Didn't see the problem of describing the symptoms on here. Janine are you burnt out or what??
---Jake


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> We MUST stop paying attention to the details of the symtpoms.


This quote needs to be put put on the front page of this Forum. In big bold letters. Flashing letters. In fact, write it on your foreheads so you can remind yourself of it every morning when you look in the mirror and begin the daily cycle of fretting over who you are.


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## jake (Jul 12, 2005)

I do agree that is a powerful statement andglad Janine wrote it down. The part I don't get is why a person asking aquestion is being toldthat describing how they feel on here IS the problem. The origial poster observes and concedes she has "anticapatory" anxiety but her basic post had physical and emotional questions--I guess I see no point to the new people coming n if they cant describe YES in detail if need be, at first, what they feel. You guys were all new once, I'm not saying the poster IS new. But new ppl probably join every day--cut some dam slack.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

No, no, you misunderstand Jake. Of course, people are are encouraged to describe their symptoms, to share with others, to reassure, and it can be very cathartic to get it off your chest. I, or Janine, didn't intend to shout someone down. What she is emphasising, and with what I agree with entirely, is that the constant and relentless scrutinising of our 'symptoms', in itself, feeds the disease. DR/DP is a beast that feeds on anxiety, obsession, fear, and the more we study the details of how we feel, the worse we'll get. Believe me, I know.

The nature of your symptoms is unimportant. They are usually the same for everyone, with small differences of degree. If you have a headache, you recognise it, and instead of (unless you are a professional hypocondriac) focussing on the pain, you try and do something about it.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2005)

Martin's correct. I know "Squish is Me" - and therefore, know this is not a first post or a first-time effort to describe one's mental state.

It's a verryryyy tricky area to navigate. Of course we all, at first, desperately want to be reassured about what is happening to us - are we losing our minds? - is there hope/help? - has any human being ever felt like this besides us?

But we are also HIGHLY obsessive. 
We are prone to crippling hypochondriac fears. 
We are self-monitoring and self-scrutinizing. 
We are easily able to identify with ANY symtpom or syndrome we read about, and we don't have the self-control to stop surfing the net in search of new conditions.

In short, totally aside from DP, we're often a mess, grin.

Over the years, I've noticed a remarkable distinction - people who can really GRASP that they must stop the self-observation get well much much faster. And people who continue to seek and get reassurances on each individual "condition of the moment" have a very hard time climbing out. They are getting something from the reassurances that is VERY hard to let go of - but to get well, we must let go of it. So everytime I (or someone else) reassures the insatiable thirst for reassurance, we are feeding something that is keeping the person stuck.

NO amount of reassurance is enough.

Not today's, not yesterday's, and not tomorrow's.

As soon as one condition/report of how someone feels is soothed, they will focus on something else happening within their mind/body. We are seeking reassurance against a gigantic concept: we want to be convinced that ANYTHING we observe in ourselves is not a threat. We want to be able to STARE into the mirror (symbolically) of our self-monitoring and reassure ourSELVES by our observations on whim. 24/7. Like someone who constantly feels for their own pulse.

But if we DO that - we are feeding a monster. The self-monitoring fuels DP feelings, which in turn terrify us, make us focus on ourselves MORE (inward focus) and that feeds the need for more reassurance. It ain't a pretty picture, guys. And there is no stopping it except for TURN AWAY from the powerful urges to indulge in it.

If you have bad symptoms, talk to a doctor. Once. Or twice. Accept that what you're told is probably correct. If it's NOT correct, what makes you think telling it a hundred more times will change anything.

Then, at that point, stop giving so much attention to OBSERVING yourself. I realize you will still feel terrible, and scared and depressed and unreal and odd, etc.

But you should NOT be able to tell me exactly HOW you feel now compared to yesterday because you should not KNOW. You should not be keeping that close of a scan on it. If this is you, then you're watching way too closely: this is how I... _felt this morning, and how odd Ifeel right now by comparison, and how mymoods changed this week compared to last, and how the DP seems worse in the sunlight but only when overall anxiety is high and not if mydepressive mood is more pervasive and only when I've gotten too much sleep or if Iare thinking too much about how long to sleep and this article I read last week about sleep and insanity which I can't stop thinking about has made me realize my sleep patterns indicate I might..._" GET IT?

THAT IS "WATCHING" your symptoms. You are observing them like a sentry guard watching a prisoner, and reporting on their every move.

It is a "habit" that is close to OCD. We immerse ourselves in self-observation to the point that we acculmulate NEEDS to do it - the mind loop that recurs and reinforces itself in OCD is very similar to that of hypochrondriacal obsessions.

*You cannot NOT want to do this. You have to turn away from the urges and STOP doing it while you still WANT to.*


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## squish_is_me (Jun 5, 2005)

Janine,
I think you articulate what you are trying to say very well! I am always amazed! The thing is that after having read several posts like this one I have come to understand what you are saying and made great stides toward moving on! Before I found this site I never had a day without anxiety! Things like you have said here are the reason I have been able to move on to the point of have weeks where I am totally anxiety and DR free. I feel possibly that you missd the reasoning behind my post though.
Though it is true that when I wake in the mornings I wonder what the day will bring, I do not mull over it throughout the day. In fact if I think about how I am doing at all it is at the end of the day before I go to sleep and I have gotten surprisingly good and shutting that off! I do have momments ocassionally where I feel panicy. Happened a few nights ago. I began to panic and didnt know why. I carried something out to my car. Stood on the stairs for a few seconds, breathed deep, said shut up! Your ok! And went on, not to think of it again! I was fine the rest of the night and didnt think twice about the moment. 
I really have learned alot from you and waht I have read here! I have actively implimented it into my life and am an entirely different person( me again) most of the time.
My observation of how my moods change and so on is something that I have gradually noticed of the past 8mo. Not something I have closely monitored. No. It is something that this past month as I went through this cycle it occured to me that this cycle has taking place before. Which brought up the question why. Why do I cycle. Not to seek comfort and reasurrance. Rather because I am through being trapped by this! I want to move on! So, I thought if this (the cycling) could possibly be menstral related then I will talk to my ob. If it is something else then ok I will deal with that. If it is entrirely cuz I am worried it will come back then good... I will tackle that.
My purpose here was entirely to see why I feel as though I may be cycling through emotions so I can move on from what is doing it. Now that it has occured to me I figured there must be a reason behind it. possibly I am wrong. 
As I said, I was not seeking reassureance just an answer, if any, to what I have notice just recently. As they say knowing is half the battle.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Janine said:


> Over the years, I've noticed a remarkable distinction - *people who can really GRASP that they must stop the self-observation get well much much faster. And people who continue to seek and get reassurances on each individual "condition of the moment" have a very hard time climbing out.* They are getting something from the reassurances that is VERY hard to let go of - but to get well, we must let go of it. So everytime I (or someone else) reassures the insatiable thirst for reassurance, we are feeding something that is keeping the person stuck.


I have to disagree with this. My sense is it is because I am older (46) and have chronic DP/DR for 30+ years.

I would say I always avoided self-observation and introspection -- I was afraid, deeply afraid of this early on -- but perhaps being a doctor's daughter, my approach to this was it was always a medical condition.

I got that impression from my mother/psychiatrist.

I never wanted to "go there", to "test the limits" of the DP. And recently, I'm not "checking" for its presense sp? or really obsessing over it. It has become integrated as part of my life. I have to say, OK, I have this crap, I have to do the best I can with it. To be honest, I've given up on thinking this will go away, which does not please me.

"Letting go of control" yes, especially in the past year has taken away more fear. But always saying to myself, when this gets TERRIBLE (and it hasn't in about 9 months? knock wood), "This is an illness. This feeling will pass" has helped immensely.

I understand in the throes of this it is impossible to "make this go away" and I have never seen reality in so many years -- though I have NEVER forgotten it.

Oh, Lord I'm rambling and can't get to the point.

I will say the most "obsessing" I ever did was over my health in general as a world class hypochondriac as a child through say age 30. That gradually subsided, as did the dizziness/off balance stuff.

My greatest fear is my inability to handle this in stressful situations. I do have anticipatory anxiety which can exacerbate this. But I'm not "looking for the DP."

So, the point. I feel, unless I'm fooling myself :shock: (God help me) that I have "GRASP[ed] that _ must stop the self-observation" and I have not gotten better as a result. The DP/DR is still ever present.

I will say my attitude has contributed to less fear of this monster jumping at me out of nowhere, but I know the triggers, and work on calming myself in re: said triggers, and calming myself during bad episodes.

*Bottom line, I see so many young people on the Board who haven't gotten to this stage... age wise, perhaps? The craving for reassurance is because the experience is so new and terrifying. In looking at the age poll for members of this Board, I'm in a minority in terms of age. So many here are teens and twenties, and many have rec drug onset.

Also, the drug induced DP/DR seems to be more likely to clear up, vs. the non-drug induced. It also may remind folks of odd experiences on drugs which I have never experienced. I may be wrong about this as well, but those who have reported about this in a poll here or a thread, forgot seem to have recovered from drug induced much more quickly.

Those who receive reassurance that this will pass, who receive coping skills, and who experience periodic remissions (episodic vs. chronic DP) seems most likely to to have a positive outcome -- though I can't make a general statement about that -- this NODID survey will be fascinating in getting some answers.

I believe it also depends on what the DP/DR was triggered by, and also the support system that was offered. I believe I am deeply conditioned to be this way (DP/DR) at the "bearable" level I have all the time. I believe HAD I received love/reassurance/coping skills very early on this would not have gotten so bad, wouldn't have become chronic.

My case is particularly odd in that my mother, a doctor, psychiatrist convinced me this was hopeless, very early on. I'd say that contributed greatly to the chronicity of MY case. Not constant obsessing.*

ACH, I hope this makes sense!
*We are all unique!* 8)

Best,
D
Edited TWICE. :?_


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## agentcooper (Mar 10, 2005)

hmmmm...for once i sort of don't agree with janine. i think that if some of our dp/dr is caused by hormones (and i don't know how anyone could disagree that it's possible), then it would help to some degree to monitor when you are feeling it. that could help your ob figure out when to test your hormones and which hormones you need. my dp is almost all caused by hormones and i have sucessfully lowered my dp/dr with hormone replacements.


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

For me, the glaringly obvious points in recovery from this are 
1 - How you deal with the symptoms
2- Why you get the symptoms

If you look at all the people on here who have episodic dp, as Dreamer said, they are better equipped in dealing with it. It is a process of reinforcement, those who have chronic or life long episodic dp will be more resistant to focusing outwards and more vulnerable to the symptom state. But, I don't believe the symptoms are any different, and the way out is still the same, but because we all have different beliefs about our illnesses and different relationships to our symptoms, we all have unique difficulties in dealing with them, and more inbuilt resistance to changing our ways. In theory it's the same, but in practice, it is very different, because you can't use a broken mind to fix a broken mind.

Rambling again


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2005)

There is probably some good advice above re: biological causes.

However, I still maintain that for the vast majority, their symptoms are not ?only caused by hormones? ? some may be. Absolutely. And if you TRULY and HONESTLY (honestly in your heart of hearts) believe that you are not a hypochrondriac, not anxiety-based in your thinking, not obsessive by nature and always have been, not preoccupied with issues of control, and self-monitoring and real/authentic Me versus Fake me, or what is me versus what is not me?.then it?s probably good to record your ?patterns? to see if it?s hormonal. My advice would still be: monitor it for a few months and then STOP ? take your chart to a doctor, talk, ask questions and see if there is something sensible to try med-wise, and then STOP the monitoring. But I doubt that is what happens most of the time. Self-Monitoring becomes a second career. It was for me.

I know many people do not agree with me. That's cool. There is a huge divide in the profession of mental health. I am of the psychologically-based school. And of course each person is unique. However, there are many people who fit into these categories of symptoms and behaviors. Not all, but many. And these are ideas that represent a large portion of psychiatry. Everyone is a grown-up here and will take what speaks to them and ignore what doesn?t.


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## squish_is_me (Jun 5, 2005)

JanineBaker said:


> There is probably some good advice above re: biological causes.
> 
> However, I still maintain that for the vast majority, their symptoms are not ?only caused by hormones? ? some may be. Absolutely. And if you TRULY and HONESTLY (honestly in your heart of hearts) believe that you are not a hypochrondriac, not anxiety-based in your thinking, not obsessive by nature and always have been, not preoccupied with issues of control, and self-monitoring and real/authentic Me versus Fake me, or what is me versus what is not me?


Deep inside, even as a child I have always been this person! I have always been anxiety based in my thinking, not so much a hypocondriac, yes somewhat obsessive by nature, yes somewhat occupied with issues of control but not to the point of it consuming me... real and fake me... having now had periods wher I feel like "me" again I have come to understnad that the real me is just exactly the same except without the excessive anxiety and fear!
I however have never known how to change those things about myself even before my severe anxiety and DR set in. So I decided not to dwell on them because I guess it is who I am. However I can choose to decide how much these things control me. Also, I thought possibly my hormone cycle could be a big contributor to ongoing anxiety that seems to grow around that time each month.
Make sense? was I clear?


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Gawd, this is teetering on going around and around in circles.

Look - can we forget what triggers DR/DP for a moment? Who cares whether it's hormones or child abuse or drug abuse or the wrong type of weather......in the end, we're all in the same boat.

Now...continue...


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## squish_is_me (Jun 5, 2005)

uh... yes... all in the same boat trying to get ashore... that is where I am going with this at least... sorta


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## squish_is_me (Jun 5, 2005)

Hey Janine, someone sent me a thing with like a "is this you" thing attached and it soooo is.

Fun to be with. Secretive. Difficult to fathom and to be understood. Quiet unless excited or tensed. Takes pride in oneself. Has reputation. Easily consoled. Honest. Concerned about people's feelings. Tactful. Friendly. Approachable. Emotional temperamental and unpredictable. (<- I am not sure about this... I wanna say yes and no. I dont consider myself emotionally unpredictable.) Moody and easily hurt. Witty and sparkly. spazzy at times. Not revengeful. Forgiving but never forgets. dislikes nonsensical and unnecessary things. Guides others physically and mentally. Sensitive and forms impressions carefully. Caring and loving. Treats others equally. Strong sense of sympathy. Wary and sharp. Judges people through observations. Hardworking. No difficulties in studying. Loves to be alone. (<- that isnt true though... I really dont like to be alone for the most part... never have.) *Always broods about the past and the old friends.* HOT. Waits for friends. Never looks for friends. Not aggressive unless provoked. Loves to be loved. Easily hurt but takes long to recover.

Thought maybe that would help you understand how I was trying to explain me... I dunno... maybe not... lol


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2005)

Squish: I do hear you. And yes, absolutely agree that PMS, or homornal changes in general can make anxiety and DP states MUCH worse. Mine were always worse with those fluctuations. And you describe emotional peaks and valleys ? what you are calling ?cycling? ? and that can certainly be from hormones too. So I guess my reply would be sure, if you want to try some adjunct of hormonal treatment to try to minimize the impact it has on your anxiety, go for it. However, I will tell you that my own PMS was terrible while I was ill, and now it?s just mildly irritating. My mood swings were MASSIVE when I was ill ? and now they are just normal ups and downs (with a few experiences of POWERFUL emotions and over-reactions to things in life, but even then, not really crippling).
Nothing wrong with trying to make things easier on yourself now, of course. But SOMEwhere in your post, for some reason, I kept hearing something else. I wondered if you had just researched/read something about Bi-polar (manic depression) Disorder and were trying to convince yourself you had ups and downs for Hormonal reasons, to reassure yourself you were not bi-polar. I could have misread you entirely, and apologies if I did.

And I enjoy annoying *Martin*, so I want to add this: The reason that it can matter how someone regards the Origin/Source of their mental symptoms is that if they are convinced it stems from a physical cause, they have no reason to seriously consider making intense changes within their personality/character. They may feel perfectly ?entitled? to keep doing their life the way they?ve always done it, obsessing right and left, monitoring themselves every hour, demanding perfection, maintaining a self-status of victim, and imposing unrealistic expectations on themselves, other people and reality at large.

If the symptoms are only coming from their brain chemistry, then no reason to undertake the VERY difficult challenge of trying to make structural changes.

However?..if/when we really can ?get? that HOW we are, in our overall way of being ourselves, has contributed and continues to contribute significantly to why we are having terrible symptoms, then we might (MIGHT) be motivated to consider some serious work/transformation. Even then, it?s damn hard. But seeing the connection between the two at least gives us a CHANCE at being willing to do that kind of hard work.


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## squish_is_me (Jun 5, 2005)

well honestly I have wondered if maybe there was something else wrong with me from the day I found out my mom is BPD! Because I dont want to end up that way! The exact reason BiPolar struck me is just because I was in college at one time for nursing and took some psychology classes and know that BiPolar is based on hi ups and downs. So yes when I noticed that I was have ups and downs it made me go... weeeeeeeeeeell ... maybe.... but then I thought about it for about 30seconds and said no... I really dont think that could be it. Since I dont have the charictoristic mania and depression (where low and really really low) nor do I have a whole slew of other symptoms that coinside with it. so Like I said at first I did go hey maybe but it passed breifly. 
I am growing to see i have to let go and learn to just enjoy life again. I have my days or even weeks where I crash out but I recover much much faster now! Beyond that I do have days where I feel totally ok! no anxiety, no DR just me being crazy old me again! I am anxious to get around the periods of downfalls and since they seem to coincide with my menstration I was thinking there could be help with that. 
Honestly I have always had heave mood swings with my periods! Like I said I cycle almost a month and a half a time instead of 28 days (less than a mo) like most. I know when you are about to cycle the level of hormones drops straight downa nd since mine build for almost 2 weeks longer I attribute it to that! I always say that I am like a total nut for 3 days when I get my period! 1day before and 2 after I start! lol on the same note I cycle for up to 10 days so the depressed moody feeling that most of us get each month last longer for me so I figure it probably contributes to my anxious down feelings for the following week because I have been in that hormone induced state for that long. ... It is something I always knew about myself but never really had a reason to think about before.
Janine I think you are an amazing woman! I think your posts are wonderful and insightful! I am thankful I found you! You have opened my eyes and so many others! you are amazingly articulate! You seem to be a pretty inteligent woman with a good head on your shoulders! I cant see my OB till I have my anual in a few months so I though I would run my thoughts by you. I take no offense to anything you say! I appriciate honesty!


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Martinelv said:


> Gawd, this is teetering on going around and around in circles.
> 
> Look - can we forget what triggers DR/DP for a moment? Who cares whether it's hormones or child abuse or drug abuse or the wrong type of weather......in the end, we're all in the same boat.
> 
> Now...continue...


Oh My,
I've got hooked in again, and it's yet on another day of a sneezing fit. This isn't good.

I was disagreeing with this specific point.
Janine said:


> people who can really GRASP that they must stop the self-observation get well much much faster. And people who continue to seek and get reassurances on ..... [don't]


I think I *personally* am well aware of my self-observing self, my need to control, etc. Yet, I still have chronic DP/DR. I also don't constantly ask for reassurances that I'm not going mad, etc. When I was young, the first words to my first shrink were, "make these weird feelings stop!" Not, "I think I'm going crazy." I was 15 at the time.

Also, I forgot to mention, yes, I know with myself, "that time of month exacerbates" DP/DR for me and for many women on this Board. How can that be discounted? That was squish's point. That isn't bipolar by a long shot. It is also good to note as agentcooper said. Years back I did make a journal of my symptoms, actually for two doctors, and keep a journal again now.

Without fail, PMS exacerbates my depression and DP/DR. That's sort of a side point.

*Then who said, there IS a difference in how we got DP, when we got DP, and if it is chronic or episodic. I believe that. I may be wrong, but I believe that. Also, Martin, you have had two? rec drug onsets which gave you ONLY DR and you went into remission. I have NO drug onset, first experienced this at 4/5 and DIDN'T find it scary, and mine is now chronic. Also, it is my understanding from your posts that you have a strong support system -- your family is supportive of you, etc.

ToO MANY VARIABLES. 8) *

I FEEL VERY STRONGLY WE EXPERIENCE THE SAME THING, but getting out of it, or not is related to MANY DIFFERENT CAUSES, and the way out is NOT only one approach.

Oh, I'm not yelling. 8) I don't feel like stopping to bold.

I have to admit, keeping a daily journal is important in looking at symptoms/triggers. And what I mean in my case is, I'm not obsessing over my DP. It is just "there". It's been there for 30+ years. So the theory Janine stated at minimum doesn't work for MY CASE.

I'm dealing with it better with the outward focus, but it's true, how does one get any "positive reinforcement" that this will go away when one hasn't had relief in years and years and has given up really worrying about it. Etc., etc. I'm worried about getting old with this is all.

All I'm saying.

Best,
D :shock:
Edit x 1
No one likes me


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

I experienced this at about 5/6 and it was the most terrifying experience of my life. I re-live that terror every time I get it now. Yet, luckily for me, it is episodic and has been my whole life, going for years at a time then hitting me full force and knocking me down again. Why some people are vulnerable all the time and can get out of it easily or those who when it arrives, find it almost impossible to fight off. I think it does, like J-9 says, have something to do with how we react and grasp the concept of focusing outwards.

There is a paper on the IOP website that investigates 'catastrophic interpretation' of symptom states and how this relates to going into full blown breakdown mode. I can only find the abstract though.

For me, the thoughts are so scary that I find it almost impossible to focus outwards. I quickly spiral into debilitating fear, and the only reason for this I can imagine, is that that fear is deeply engrained from life long episodes and also because I am perhaps further along the self monitoring line than my conscious mind would like to believe, and probably already setting up the fall before it happens.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

g-funk said:


> I experienced this at about 5/6 and it was the most terrifying experience of my life. I re-live that terror every time I get it now. Yet, luckily for me, it is episodic and has been my whole life, going for years at a time then hitting me full force and knocking me down again. Why some people are vulnerable all the time and can get out of it easily or those who when it arrives, find it almost impossible to fight off. I think it does, like J-9 says, have something to do with how we react and grasp the concept of focusing outwards.
> 
> * There is a paper on the IOP website that investigates 'catastrophic interpretation' of symptom states and how this relates to going into full blown breakdown mode. I can only find the abstract though.*


Dear G-Funk, I came across that abstract as well. My point again is for ME, my catastrophic thinking that I got AFTER my first very early episodes of DP/DR is probably at the root of the chronicity. I was never soothed, I was never helped to come to grips with this.

My particular situation did not bode well from the beginning, and HERE I'm talking a NURTURE component, in my case only, where even with years of therapy, and ultimately learning to focus away from this, I am still chronic.

The implication is that each case here is identical and we're not. At least IMHO. One theory can't explain every case here. Certain coping mechanisms are more helpful than others, yes, but "the way out" isn't always guaranteed.

For example, we both experienced DP at a very early age. It was scary for you, not for me. Later it was horrendous for me and chronic. Currently it is bearable.

*You state "luckily for me, it is episodic and has been my whole life, going for years at a time then hitting me full force ..... "*

*Yes I say you were very fortunate. And your experience is HENCE DIFFERENT FROM MINE.* Perhaps had mine been episodic, had I had someone to calm my catastrophic thinking AS A CHILD, then I wouldn't have it chronically. This is all I'm saying.

I don't think we can lump each experience into one pile. The DP/DR we have in common, but each case is different. I don't see how people don't seem to agree with that.

I am conveying my own experience; I think yes, my catastrophic thinking as a child contributed to the chronicity of this... as a child.... when I didn't have the knowledge I have now.

I simply wonder if there was a window of opportunity in my case. Some sense of reinforcement of times when I felt better.

And no, I am not blaming this on my childhood as someone has already told me. I am giving a different experience here.

Sigh. :roll: 
Best,
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Janine said:


> The reason that it can matter how someone regards the Origin/Source of their mental symptoms is that if they are convinced it stems from a physical cause, they have no reason to seriously consider making intense changes within their personality/character. They may feel perfectly ?entitled? to keep doing their life the way they?ve always done it, obsessing right and left, monitoring themselves every hour, demanding perfection, maintaining a self-status of victim, and imposing unrealistic expectations on themselves, other people and reality at large.
> 
> *If the symptoms are only coming from their brain chemistry, then no reason to undertake the VERY difficult challenge of trying to make structural changes.*


Sigh, can't there be an acknowledgement of both? I know I'm seen as a biological reductionist here, but I also consider my upbringing. I just got 2 PMs saying I should quit complaining about my childhood, LOL (NURTURE).

I believe without a doubt that there are neurological causes to this illness. I also believe I was born with a certain personality and predisposition that led me to having the symptoms I have. I had an ability to dissociate, to be anxious, the moment I was born. I'm certain of that.

That doesn't mean that I/and others like myself don't take responsibility for finding our way with this illness, in any means possible. I continue with talk therapy, group therapy and acknowledge -- am painfully aware of -- parts of my personality I'd like to trade in forever.

I keep saying, we can't say we're all the same.

I just took the NODID survey. Without giving anything away, LOL, there is an obvious search for the understanding of two separate onsets of DP. Drug induced and NON drug induced. That alone would indicate that that is a real possibility, and treatment options should be tailored to the individual.

"Ask not what disease the patient has, but what patient the disease has."
Best
D 8)


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Someone has already voiced my thoughts on the matter. YOU CANT USE A BROKEN MIND TO FIX A BROKEN MIND. This is my problem with psychotherapy and even counseling for DP. In my experience, people with non-drug induced Primary Depersonalization share distinct character traits with two other mental pathologies: (1)Borderline Personality Disorder, and (2) Temporal Lobe Epilepsy. Several studies have confirmed similarities between TLE brains and brains with DP. Experience seems to show me that most people with DP suffer with deeply narcissistic and moody personalities. Do people with DP develop internal coping mechanisms which could be described as neurotic? YES, ABSOLUTELY. Do I think that changing your internal coping mechanisms gets rid of the source of the problem? ABSOLUTELY NOT. In other words, not dwelling on your childhood wont do a darn thing for or against the DP, and working on the way you view yourself wont change the reality centers of your brain, the parietal and temporal lobes. But these changes could make your life easier, more rewarding, and more livable. Eventually you will probably have to make these changes. No medicine will ever be able to perfectly adjust misfiring temporal lobes. But they'll get close. And whatever neurosises that leaves you with, you are going to have to work through on your own.

About hormones: Every single hormone, every single one, either affects a neurotransmitter level (thyroid, cortisol, growth hormone, parathyroid) or actually has receptors in the brain (testosterone, estrogen). Hormones play a distinct role in every single mental disorder, and psychiatrists probably dont pay enough attention to them. Does anyone here know when and why most borderlines go into remission and experience a lessening of their symptoms such as mood swings, DP, obsessivity, rage, depression? The answer : Most borderlines are females and experience a lessening of symptoms in their early to mid 40s. This is because the volatile hormones of their youth are ceasing to play havoc with their minds. Voila - no more symptoms or symptoms which are much more easily controlled. So many aspects of psychiatric work with females is impacted by hormonal fluctuations, even if they are normal ones. The more I learn about psychiatry, the more I realize that most psychiatrists arent really keeping up with the field. It has a long, long way to go. I'm not saying that all aspects of mental illness are not self-inflicted- a good many mental disorders are caused or made worse by our choices. But I just dont think DP is one of them.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Dear HS,
Yes, this is what I'm trying to say as well....



> YOU CANT USE A BROKEN MIND TO FIX A BROKEN MIND.


And I've come to a point in my life where I see ...


> ....changes could make your life easier, more rewarding, and more livable. Eventually you will probably have to make these changes. No medicine will ever be able to perfectly adjust misfiring temporal lobes. But they'll get close. And whatever neurosises that leaves you with, you are going to have to work through on your own.


Also the comments on Borderline are fascinating. I've said recently that I'm certain I have some degree of Borderline Personality Disorder that was never diagnosed until late in the game, or "mood dysregulation disorder." My mother certainly had the same. Both of us more high functioning, not self-destructive in terms of cutting/suicidality, etc.

I used to worry about menopause, but I'm wondering if I might not look forward to it. I have heard of "burning out" of a number of disorders as we age.

I WONDER, I no longer wish, what would things have been like if as a child someone had intervened? That's what I'm saying. If that would have affected the outcome of all of this in my case.

I don't know. Maybe it wouldn't have made a damned bit of difference. I can't worry about it anymore.

Take Care,
D


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

While I totally agree with Janine, there's a Catch-22 here that's makes the existence of this forum problematic: examining oneself is * the primary symptom of the condition*.

I wonder if CBT wouldn't help many people here, because it works on how you _think_. It is irrational thinking that locks one into this.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Sojourner said:


> I wonder if CBT wouldn't help many people here, because it works on how you _think_. It is irrational thinking that locks one into this.


I agree. The most helpful therapy for me has been CBT and subsequently DBT. I wish I'd had CBT when I was young, a kid.

I saw a special on Primetime or 48 Hours or whatever where CBT was used to help kids who were anxious (they had a predisposition to this) and were performing below their abilities in school, or performing an instrument, or in sports, etc. They believed they were "not as good" when they were no worse than their peers w/out anxiety.

Sessions with a counselor who gave them coping skills and different ways of approaching problems improved their confidence and performance significantly and the changes remained. Further success in school reinforced success.

I'm still not going to toss my meds down the loo however. 8)

None of this is simple.
And so it goes ....


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> And I enjoy annoying Martin, so I want to add this: The reason that it can matter how someone regards the Origin/Source of their mental symptoms is that if they are convinced it stems from a physical cause, they have no reason to seriously consider making intense changes within their personality/character.


Grrr. See, give 'em the vote and the next thing they start to disagree with you.  Soon they'll be wearing trousers ! Mind my word!

But yes, I agree with you Janine to a degree. In my case my DR was triggered by drugs, so I never gave another thought to the 'cause'. I knew why it was happening. *But,* it didn't make it any easier though (of course, other peoples degree of suffering may or may have not been worse), which is my point. DR is DR. When I found out I have Leaukemia I though about possible causes, but hell, what difference does it make? I've got it, I deal with it. I know that's outrageously pragmatic to the point of simplicity, but that's how I see it.



> They may feel perfectly ?entitled? to keep doing their life the way they?ve always done it, obsessing right and left, monitoring themselves every hour, demanding perfection, maintaining a self-status of victim, and imposing unrealistic expectations on themselves, other people and reality at large.


Surely they are entitled? If DR/DP is always a natural consequence of neurotic behaviour, then we'd be in a majority, wouldn't we? I have a feeling deep in my guts that in a lot of cases the cause, be it childhood trauma or whatever, should be left the hell alone. I know of more than one individual who's 'trigger' was some deeply buried psychological scar, and when this trigger was squeezed out of him by an over-eager psycho-whatever, he subsequently went raving mad! Sometimes things are buried for a reason, and they can damn well stay buried. I feel that sometimes the therapy culture is a step-backwards with regards to the development of psychology. But I dunno. I don't know what I'm talking about really.



> If the symptoms are only coming from their brain chemistry, then no reason to undertake the VERY difficult challenge of trying to make structural changes


I'm not sure I understand this. In fact, I'm sure I don't understand it, but as is my wont, I'll have a stab. Are you saying that if someones DR/DP has a physical cause, then they don't have to make any behavioural changes?



> Also, Martin, you have had two? rec drug onsets which gave you ONLY DR and you went into remission. I have NO drug onset, first experienced this at 4/5 and DIDN'T find it scary, and mine is now chronic. Also, it is my understanding from your posts that you have a strong support system -- your family is supportive of you, etc.


Yep, I had two rec drug induced episodes of DR and, as you rightly say, rarely DP. I completely understand that the causes of DR/DP can be as different as a fly and a tree, but like a fly and a tree, they have something in common - life. So, in the end, does it make a difference what the cause is? Like in your case, you recognise _why_ you are suffering, but still - you suffer.

Incidently Dreamer, I haven't ignored your PM. Will reply soon....


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

OK, last comment on this, yes the comment that was most confusing to me was:



> The reason that it can matter how someone regards the Origin/Source of their mental symptoms is that if they are convinced it stems from a physical cause, they have no reason to seriously consider making intense changes within their personality/character


I found I disagree with this completely. This may apply to some people but not to all who experience ANY illness ... as Martin notes, even cancer.

I realize after all these years that:
1. Understanding I wasn't "bad" or "evil" was extremely important in my therapy sessions early on. (My particular case) Understanding what really happened when I was growing up -- why my mother was so cruel to everyone, why my father left, etc. Having someone give me clarification, some validation, some correction was invaluable.

2. But in the end, those therapists who encouraged me to keep going, despite feeling like Hell, those who gave me *coping skills* were the most valuable to me.

I am still interested in "causes" as I'm intellectually curious, but I no longer see I need to "know why" to FUNCTION better. I function better only when I use my coping skills, not keep asking "Why?".

If the goal is to function as best as possible, when push comes to shove, the "why this happened" doesn't matter. It really doesn't, and this is in essesnse part of the Buddhist teaching that

*"Life is Pain, but we CHOOSE to suffer."*

One must accept what is, and then take steps to work around it. Life will always be full of misery. That is an unfortunate fact.

I think I've come full circle with this (and hence will shut up, LOL). This was again what finally sank in in DBT.

I do believe to a degree that ... who said that? ... "The unexamined life is not worth living." ... that life is much fuller when we look beyond the superficial, but indeed too much self-examination can be counter-productive.

I try every day now to accomplish, to not examine myself, my life, my pain, and enjoy the good. Sometimes I stumble upon a tad of joy. That's all that matters.

Yup, "Life is Pain, but we choose to suffer."
And change is not easy. We are either "willing to change", or are "willful" ... we fight it. And even when willing it takes tremendous effort. Perhaps that's what this is all about.

I think I'm getting it, but will someone explain to me the show "Lost", LOL, I missed most of the first season, tried to catch up last night, and am Lost with that one.

Small achievements, small sucesses, simple pleasures.
I wish those for everyone.

Best,
D


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## squish_is_me (Jun 5, 2005)

Now I really wanna smack someone around! Whoever said that non drug induced DR is usually related to 2 things one of which being BPD needs to suck my toe!!!! 
OMG!
I know you couldnt know it but my mother is BPD and has driven all of us away from her and I am terrified that I wil have BPD and be like her since BPD sufferers suffer from a strong dissolusion and sensce of noself! I do not have DP but it doesnt mean I couldnt and until now I felt confident in the fact that I would be ok, and that I wont turn into that... or at least I have kept the fears at bay, andnow they are flooding me!!
Thank You!

Pleas think about what you say on here!! 
A few weeks back I was asking Janine questions to help a friend and she told me that several disorders came to mind, but she didnt want to name them for me or we would all be thinking we had them! I think she had the right idea!!!


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

Squish,

If you are bipolar, there is no law that says you will suffer just like your mother suffers. Remember that your behavior is unique to you and that you will respond to your situation differently than she did. Being bipolar is also not the end of the world, my friend! There are many people living happy and productive lives who are bipolar and being successfully treated.

People are here talking informally, and none of us are healthcare professionals, so you need to get trustworthy information from doctors, not us. A forum is a place where people feel free to speak about whatever's in their minds, so I don't think we can ask them not to say some things for fear of triggering something in you or me, let's say.

I think what you need to do is develop some professional relationships with people who are able to give you the highest quality information about YOU and your real situation.

I don't know what you suffer from, but you say it's not DP -- is it DR? Are you anxious? You seem anxious about getting sick. Maybe you have panic disorder. (Don't yell at me for saying that. :lol: )

I mainly wanted to write in order to encourage you not to start thinking that you are your mother. You are NOT your mother. If you have bipolar disorder, your reaction to the illness is not necessarily going to be your mother's reaction. Remember that, okay?


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Dear Squish, 
Sorry, I didnt mean to trigger anything. Sojourner, thanks for explaining. Squish, I'm giving you my opinion of DP, not DR. Usually if you have DP you also have DR, but people seem to have DR without DP quite easily. But I also only see similar *traits* in people with DP. Most of them dont have the diagnosis. Most of them dont have a diagnosis of TLE, either, so dont go worrying about that too. And there is much, much, much more to being a borderline than just losing a sense of self. Many borderlines feel quite confident in who they are - and they wont let anyone forget it! You wont develop it - you either are or you arent. Since you seem to be striving to be everything your mother is not, I suspect that you arent. That doesnt mean you dont share traits. I'm sure I share a lot of traits with people with kleptomania. But I dont compulsively steal purses. You might have resemblances to your mother, which is inevitable, you both sharing the same genetics, but it doesnt mean that you have her disorders.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## squish_is_me (Jun 5, 2005)

First I want to say that I have not been diagnosed but I strongly believe I have GAD mixed with some panic disorder. Usually I am fine but my biggest fear is turning into what my mother is with Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) - not bipolar. I am aware that DR can exsist without DP. I also know a lot about BPD! Since my mother is one I have done a lot of reading up on it. ANd it isnt that you either are or arent. It is something that developes. IT is strongly based on abandoment issues and and a feling of having no self and being empty and so on. It is almost always coupled with other disorders such as bipolar, OCD, hoarding, etc. I realize that i do not have any abandonment issues, that I am aware of. I also realize that I feel as though I do have a strong sense of self and do not feel empty. But seeing as how a lot of people dont develope BPD until their 20's (being 22) it does freak me out. Also since I do believe I have GAD that is just enough to trigger it for me! I tendt to worry about outlandish things that I cant help like being attacked or something horrible happening to me and or my kids, me lossing it or more so turning BPD! I have been doing well overcomming this! Though I have had anxiety and DR in the past few months for the most part I have been more relaxed and my GAD hasnt been taking over and I have been very proud of that! However my huge fear that I will be my mom and a post like that is enough to do it! I have done very well as far as not self monitoring goes for months as well and now I feel it all setting in again!
I know you meant no harm! I also know that just because she is doesnt mean I will be! I know it isnt herreditary. I have also been told alot that since I know what I dont want to be like that should help stop me from being that way. The thing is a lot of Borderlines dont know they are that way. Many do but many dont as well! I fear I will become one that doesnt know! My mother may or may not realize it but she REFUSES to seek help except to reassure herself she is ok and we are all nuts! As a result noone speaks to her at all! I love her and want to be with her but cant tollerate her otrousous behaviour. From all the reading and online chats I have had with other BPD's they seem to feel very alone and terried all the time! I would never wanna make my children dislike me the way she has made me toward her! Nor would I ever want to feel so alone in the world! I am terrified because there is nothing that says I cant be and I would never want to feel so bad as she does and NEVER EVER want my children to feel so badluy about me! I love them to death just as she does me!
I do believe I have OCD tendencies, though am not convinced I am totally OCD. I do have DR which couples a lot with DP which seems to be a lot of what she has ... so yah. It freaks me!!!! 
As I said I know you had no bad intentions but one innocent comment/ observation has sent me barelling into fear. Not because you say I could be but because you said something that triggered the fear BIG TIME! This is why I say you have to watch what you say here! I am sure i am not the only one who has read something here and had it trigger an awful fear!


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## squish_is_me (Jun 5, 2005)

Deep breaths.... ok... my panic has passed I think... it is lingering but not stangleing me.... hey... I am getting better at letting it roll of... you really have learn how to do htat you know...

...
oh geez and as I am typing this my mom calls with her "your fathers trying to get me again" crap... sigh.

...
breath...

...

Ok sorry I freaked out on you it is just such a huge fear for me! like a crypling phobia almost... only it doesnt directly crypal me from anything until it starts turning circles in my mind and gets me realing and I feel like I cant tackle the day...

breath...

I am getting better at this thoug.
It helps me a lot sometimes to just be able to verbalize.. or type, whatever what I am feeling when I am feeling it. Just say it!
ok. done. :roll: anyway sory I went off on ya.


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

No worries. My parents are probably borderlines. Nah, scratch that. They need to develop a new diagnosis for them. You'll do just fine. Focus on yourself and your own family and who knows? Your mom's tendencies may diminish with age, and you'll be laughing about this in 10 year's time.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

BPD and everything else are very much misused and over-diagnosed.

A general lack of acceptance for a particular situation is enough to give anyone mood swings, control issues, black and white thinking, etc., if it goes far enough...

so a lot of people experience a lot of these things anyway

i dunno where i am going with this


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

When you really see someone with genuine BPD (borderline) you know its a very real disorder. Of course it's possible for them to recover just like everyone else, but it takes a lot of work and most bpd's are never willing to commit in that way to fixing themselves. But it can be done, I think.


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