# 50 percent success ratio with Marplan-MAOI?/sleep cycle



## orangeaid (Jun 24, 2005)

.... Has anyone heard about this? I'm sure many people have seen this article, when you type in DP into yahoo you get it as your first link.

"Janiger has found about a 50 percent success ratio using one of the older anti-depressants, a monoamineoxidase inhibitor (MAOI) called Marplan. The other MAOIs haven't worked as well in my experience, but for some reason, Marplan features a component that in some cases seems to be particularly effective against depersonalization, he says."

and this:

"This tells us something about it's relationship to sleep, Janiger says. DP has something to do with regulating sleep and wake patterns, but I haven't seen any studies on this yet. It's odd how so many people refer to it as being in a dream or a dreamlike state, but nobody seems to have looked at how it relates to REM (Rapid Eye Movement) sleep."

Whats your sleeping pattern like? I noticed that ever since I have been feeling a little odd lately my sleep hasnt been solid instead rather it seems to be broken up a lot.

http://www.depersonalization.info/overview.html


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## enigma (Feb 18, 2005)

I tried Marplan back in '99, but like all the MAO inhibitors (I tried all of them that year) it just left me drowsy and dizzy.

Couldn't walk a straight line while I was on any of them.

To say the least, I was definitely not in the 50% who had their DP helped by it.

That's not to say I don't believe others could be.

I just had a bad reaction to that class of AD's in general.

e


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## mulder (May 8, 2005)

orangeaid said:


> "This tells us something about it's relationship to sleep, Janiger says. DP has something to do with regulating sleep and wake patterns, but I haven't seen any studies on this yet. It's odd how so many people refer to it as being in a dream or a dreamlike state, but nobody seems to have looked at how it relates to REM (Rapid Eye Movement) sleep."
> 
> Whats your sleeping pattern like? I noticed that ever since I have been feeling a little odd lately my sleep hasnt been solid instead rather it seems to be broken up a lot.


I've thought that maybe somebody should investigate the links between DP/DR and REM sleep for a while, but didn't know if it had or hadn't been done.

I know that for a long time, when I woke up I'd often have a problem looking at things, because it was like my eyes were still in REM mode, and jumping all over the place. Lately though, this effect has worn off, and I just have blurry vision for an hour or so after waking. I too have very broken up sleep a lot of the time. This might have something to do with feeling uncomfortable in bed (I have eczema and it's very itchy at night), but it could also be down to the DR.


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## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

I'm 100% convinced that my dp has all to do with sleep patterns. Even now that i'm not so anxious any more, I still live in a noisy neighborhood, and i have 2 cats that take turns sleeping on my chest/head all nite. :x I have blurry vision for the 1st hour when I wake up too! but, when I do manage to get a decent 5-6 hours of straight sleep, my dp is not so bad the next day, and the buzzing in my ears is almost unnoticeable.

from what i've been told, if we're constantly waking up and not spending enough time in slow wave sleep (the time when the body repairs itself) leads to not enough cortisol produced overnight=more anxiety= more dp/dr=more interrupted sleep the next night...


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## enigma (Feb 18, 2005)

I don't believe sleep patterns have any role in my dp/dr.

It's certainly a lot worse if I don't get enough sleep.

But even if I get a good night's sleep every night for several weeks running, the dp/dr is always there. (Just not as intense.)

e


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## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

enigma said:


> But even if I get a good night's sleep every night for several weeks running, the dp/dr is always there. (Just not as intense.)
> 
> e


i'm confused, how can it be that when you sleep better dp is less intense, yet you don't think sleep plays *any* role in it?

btw, i can get a full 8 hours of sleep if i take a benzo before bed, but benzos if not most sleeping pills, interfere with normal sleep cycles, so the body is never rejuvenated and the problem is never really resolved.


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## enigma (Feb 18, 2005)

rula said:


> i'm confused, how can it be that when you sleep better dp is less intense, yet you don't think sleep plays *any* role in it?
> 
> btw, i can get a full 8 hours of sleep if i take a benzo before bed, but benzos if not most sleeping pills, interfere with normal sleep cycles, so the body is never rejuvenated and the problem is never really resolved.


Well it worsens the dp/dr the way the flu worsens it, but I wouldn't say that meant influenza was a root cause of it either.

As for benzos, I was in my twenties before I started popping those for anxiety, but my dp/dr started years before then.

Whatever that may be doing to my sleep now, it doesn't account for all those years before when I slept fine (just whenever I happened to _want_ to sleep) without having to take anything, but was still severely dp/dr'd.

e


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## orangeaid (Jun 24, 2005)

I think what they are saying is that the interuption of sleep is something suttle, not something that will be noticed, like we are not in the proper REM state of sleep or soemthing. I dont think it is like we wake up and then fall back to sleep a lot I think what they mean is something is triggered in the brain that screws up the cycle of sleep, so even if you feel you sleep fine to you, it might not be so?!


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## enigma (Feb 18, 2005)

orangeaid said:


> I think what they mean is something is triggered in the brain that screws up the cycle of sleep, so even if you feel you sleep fine to you, it might not be so?!


Could a sleep clinic possibly make this determination?

Or would it be something that might require a more sophisticated outfit?

I'm always interested in how things like this could relate to me in the here and now, because for one thing I'm not getting any younger (for the benefit of all newcomers and people who haven't been around very much, I'm older than G-d).

e


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## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

enigma said:


> Well it worsens the dp/dr the way the flu worsens it, but I wouldn't say that meant influenza was a root cause of it either.
> 
> e


interrupted sleep and the flu have similar effects, both weaken the body/immune system. but i'm not saying that sleep is the *root* cause of dp/dr either. the real root is what's stopping us from sleeping well (meds or other), what's making our brain work so hard at night, spend too much time in REM, instead of spending time in repair mode.

why did it take a few weeks for most of us after the intial panic attack for dp/dr to become chronic? my theory (my doctor's too) is that it takes that long of bad, little to no NREM sleep for the body to become run down, to stop making enough cortisol and all the things it needs to make over night.

they've also done studies on ppl w/eating disorders who probably sleep fine but deprive their body from nutrients, and they too experience dissociative symptoms. -ru


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## enigma (Feb 18, 2005)

rula said:


> what's making our brain work so hard at night, spend too much time in REM, instead of spending time in repair mode.


On the other hand, all of my best sexual experiences occurred in the REM state. :wink:

So it has that going for it, at least.

e


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## orangeaid (Jun 24, 2005)

"Many people who experience depersonalisation and derealisation can be woken from sleep with a nocturnal panic attack. Research shows these attacks happen on the change of consciousness, going into sleep, moving into dreaming sleep or to deep sleep or back to dreaming sleep. The change in consciousness during sleep, is similar to the change in consciousness people can experience when they dissociate during the day."

http://www.panicattacks.com.au/anxdis/dissoc.html


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## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

enigma said:


> On the other hand, all of my best sexual experiences occurred in the REM state. :wink:


wow. hey. maybe i shouldn't be so quick to judge 

the only point i'm trying to make is that new research is coming out that disputes the theory that DP is a defense mechanism of the psyche, and claims that it's a *physical* response to disrupted sleep. personally i never cared for the defense mechanism theory, doesn't add up in my experience. 
-ru


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## enigma (Feb 18, 2005)

rula said:


> personally i never cared for the defense mechanism theory, doesn't add up in my experience.
> -ru


Mine neither.

Sometime today I need to actually click on those links that orangeaid went to the trouble to provide and read all about that (I'm inexcusably lazy :roll: ).

That does sound like a pretty interesting theory.

e


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