# Foundation of all drugs/remedies - limited basic elements



## Guest (Jun 3, 2011)

In light of the discussion of Ayahuasca, I had to reiterate two things, and I hope these charts post.

In Chemistry we learn that ALL THINGS ON EARTH are made up of a limited number of elements. Water is H2O Hydrogen and Oxygen. And every drug, rec or otherwise comes from the SAME Periodic Table. The same source at a MOLECULAR LEVEL.

This is why Native Americans found something to help pain, but didn't call it Aspirin. When there were techniques to understanding the elements that make up Aspirin, scientists could then find the molecular configuration of the substance from nature and create it for a larger population.

This is true of recreational drugs cooked up in someone's basement, or in a laboratory.

Also, I have the table of Psychactive substances ... or pie chart. It's rather remarkable, as the center of it all is Cannabis. I hope these link.










Well, the links work, but the images don't show. Will try one other way.










If these don't post, please click on the links. (GAH)


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## Guest (Jun 3, 2011)

,,,


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

That's pretty interesting, looks like Cannabis should be the most balanced drug


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## Guest (Jun 3, 2011)

Pablo said:


> That's pretty interesting, looks like Cannabis should be the most balanced drug


But darnit, I can make the image come up. Media yes, a pic no. Oh, well.

One thing though, cannabis being at the center of the chart, does not indicate "stability" or what I suppose might be called "molecular stability."

Again, I'm not a chemistry expert by a country mile, but the interesting thing is, each of the four classes of psychoactive substances overlap to one degree or another, and some do not overlap at all. For the ones that DO, they *SHARE portions* of a spcific molecular configuration.
In my understanding of physics as well, this has nothing to do with stability even at an atomic level, or at levels of smaller particles.
And for example. Water can exist as a liquid, a solid (ice), and a gas? (vapor) ... whatever. Example. They are still H2O One atom Hydrogen on of 2 of Oxygen ... or the other way around, LOL.

Chemistry is so damned difficult for me.


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## Guest (Jun 3, 2011)

j4mtj said:


> I can see the images. The pie chart, are the overlaps supposed to represent molecular similarities or similarities in the effects they produce?


Both. And don't quote me. I am rusty on chemistry.

1. THere are four major classes of psychoactive drugs -- *stimulant, depressant, hallucinogen, and anti-psychotic*
2. If something is in a certain class it has a certain effect as described by the class
3. Those that overlap share molecular characteristics that produce such an effect
4. EDIT!: anti-psychotics that do not overlap DO NOT share characteristics of Hallucinogens that do not overlap. The outer edges of the four circles are independent and I would guess the most "pure" form giving the most specific effect?

I don't know enough about this topic to say much more than the basic facts here. But you will also note, say you see Stimulants. Some share NO commonality with any other class. But SSRIs DO have some stimulant properties. No doubt why some people get very agitated on an SSRI. Some on the other hand feel less anxious. Why this is so, I have no clue.

And the simplest things with NO overlap:
Stimulant - Coffee
Depressant - Alcohol
Hallucinogen - LSD
Antipsychotic - Haldol

NONE of these four share any overlap. I can then infer they have absolutely NO chemical configuration shared with the others, however, one molecule altered can change a drug in a very subtle way ...


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## kate_edwin (Aug 9, 2009)

"That's pretty interesting, looks like Cannabis should be the most balanced drug "

uh, i dont think that was the intention of that chart. it shows that cannabis has the properties of all those drugs, which is probably a bad thing......that means it can have all the side effects of all those classes of drugs


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## babybowrain (Aug 24, 2010)

the best tranquilizer Ive ever taken was "sleepytime" bed time tea...no joke. Works like a charm. The one with the bear on the cover. Legal and without side effects...


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

Maybe it is too small to see but I don’t find Dopamine (L-Dopa) on the Psychoactive chart


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2011)

Visual Dude said:


> Maybe it is too small to see but I don't find Dopamine (L-Dopa) on the Psychoactive chart


*Visual, I'm no expert in this, but I looked at RxList.com and I don't believe this is considered a "psychoactive drug" per se ... that is its primary use seems to be in Parkinson's.*

As I understand this chart it refers SPECIFICALLY to *mind-altering/perception alterina/mood altering drugs*, both prescription and recreational.

To understand all of this fully, I'm coming to a point where I have to defer to chemists ... I have basic knowledge and I keep looking things up in books at RxList, Pubmed, etc.

If I remember I may ask my therapist about DMT today.

*Also to Kate:*

I don't believe the chart indicates that Cannabis is most significant here. If you look on the four outer corners of the chart, there are each of the four classes of drugs that do NOT overlap with anything else. Some drugs have "degrees of separation" from others. There are similarities, and basic properties, but clearly cannabis is not considered a stimulant, etc. We need an expert again to give the full explanation of the chart. I potsed it is simply noting the four classes and how many DO overlap.


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2011)

L-do·pa (l-dp)
n.
*An amino acid that is the metabolic precursor of dopamine, is converted in the brain to dopamine, and used in synthetic form to treat Parkinson's disease. Also called levodopa.*

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
L-dopa [ɛlˈdəʊpə]
n
(Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Biochemistry) *a substance occurring naturally in the body and used to treat Parkinson's disease. Formula: C9H11NO4 Also called levodopa*
[from L-d(ihydr)o(xy)p(henyl)a(lanine)]

Collins English Dictionary - Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
L-dopa (l-dp)
*An amino acid that is the metabolic precursor of dopamine, is converted in the brain to dopamine, and is used in synthetic form to treat Parkinson's disease. Chemical formula: C9H11NO4.*

*It is not a PSYCHOACTIVE DRUG. It wouldn't fall into the Psychoactive Drug chart at all. It isn't a depressant, a stimulant, an antipsychotic, or a hallucinogen.*

Dare I say, it isn't even a drug. As noted it is an amino acid. It is "used in a synthetic form" so that it can be used as a medical drug for Parkinson's


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## flat (Jun 18, 2006)

Very interesting. The only "illegal" psychoactive drug I ever took was cannabis. And it also was the only thing that cured my dp/dr, albeit momentarily. Just how still remains a mystery.


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2011)

babybowrain said:


> the best tranquilizer Ive ever taken was "sleepytime" bed time tea...no joke. Works like a charm. The one with the bear on the cover. Legal and without side effects...


Ah, if that only worked on me before bed.








More importantly, tranquilizers IN THIS CHART SPECIFICALLY ANTI PSYCHOTICS (see the outer edge of the top circle -- Haldol is in there). In this chart a tranquilizer is a very strong psychoactive medication used on individuals with schizoprhenia and other disorders where psychosis is a key symptom. If someone in a manic state as in schizoaffective disorder they are quite capable of hurting other people -- e.g. my cousin who has come at people with a baseball bat, or beaten them up. Also, some individuals with such disorders cannot be controlled from hurting others, destroying things, etc. even in a therapeutic setting.

They are also quite capable of hurting themselves badly. These drugs don't CURE psychosis, they calm the person down. Sadly, this is why you see individuals hating their medication. It takes away motivation, spontenaety sp?, creativty. One sleeps endlessly. If most of us here took something like old fashioned Haldol, we'd be out for 2 days. Someone in a psychotic, combative state can be given IV antipsychotics that have no effect save at a very high level that would not be tolerated by someone without these disorders.

These are HEAVY DUTY antipsychotics. And you would be stunned at the amount it takes to control someone who is in the midst of some horrible delusion that he/she is being attacked by a demon.

We aren't talking Sleepytime Tea here, LOL.


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

Thanks for the info.

This is fascinating because if you take too much levodopa (or any dopamine agonist) then you can experience delusions like schizophrenia

Anti-psychotics are anti-dopamine (dopamine antagonists)

I guess my beloved







dopamine is safer than I realized. (of course 'safer' doesn't mean lets abandon restraint)

As a side bar, both in research and personal experience, dopamine is regulatory in function and when it is low anxiety goes high and/or things get 'stuck' - not just movement but unconscious decision making (as a higher level). It controls plasticity (glutamate). There is some neat newer info on the role of the Basal Ganglia.


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2011)

Visual, it's interesting that what seems to REALLY matter in "mental health" and health in the body is "homeostasis" -- balance. And I certainly have no clue how everything balances out as well as it does.

I was thinking of Michael J. Fox (actor, now 50) who first was diagnosed with Parkinson's at the age of 30? Why? We don't know. Far too young.

Anyway, I believe he takes Levadopa to help control his shaking, uncontrolled movements, etc. HOWEVER, it has to be the "right" amount. I've seen him in interviews where he is really more controlled and other times where he his really moving all over the place. He will say sometimes these reactions are due to OVERMEDICATION and sometimes to UNDERMEDICATION.

Again this is like a diabetic who must constantly monitor blood sugar levels. They are using synthesized insulin (from pigs? I don't know what now), but they must time it appropriately with when they eat. Even the most careful diabetic can get into trouble with the wrong dose at the wrong time before or after a meal.

What is sad is the ultimate end result of Parkinson's I believe is dementia.

Also, if you've ever seen the film "Awakenings" based on Oliver Sacks' experiment on patients who completely stopped moving for decades. Robert De Niro is the main character. He has this disorder... can't think of the name. At HUGE levels of L-Dopa he "comes out of his catatonic state" but ultimately the drug stops working. He goes from complete catatonia -- a wax figure, to fully "normal" then back to catatonia. It is sad and moving and a must-see for anyone interested in all this stuff. As a film it is almost better than the book as it is visual and de Niro is fantastic.


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2011)

Awakenings IMDB Page with videos

The victims of an encephalitis epidemic many years ago have been catatonic ever since, but now a new drug offers them hope.

Sadly all of the individuals in the experiment return to being unable to move.
This is NOT the same SCHIZOPRHENIC catatonia. I'd say it would seem more related to Parkinson's. And the scary thing is the individuals are very aware of their state, and quite mentally healthy.


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

Remember watching the movie years ago - very good. Don't have the book though (just _Man Who Mistook Wife for a Hat_ and _Anthropologist on Mars_)

As you have the book, do you know what the "HUGE levels of L-Dopa" were? It would be interesting to find out. Also if he used carbidopa (which would be likely if after 1967).

Thanks


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## Guest (Jun 16, 2011)

Visual said:


> Remember watching the movie years ago - very good. Don't have the book though (just _Man Who Mistook Wife for a Hat_ and _Anthropologist on Mars_)
> 
> As you have the book, do you know what the "HUGE levels of L-Dopa" were? It would be interesting to find out. Also if he used carbidopa (which would be likely if after 1967).
> 
> Thanks


I have the books you have here as well as "Musicophilia" and several OTHER Sacks books. Don't have Awakenings. What's interesting though is I recall the scene (I saw the film maybe 2 years ago on TV ... after seeing it when it first came out) where Dr. Sacks (Robin Williams) keeps telling the chemist/pharmacist at the institution to keep upping the amount he wishes to use on his patients. At one point there is a line in the video -- one very brief scene -- "Make it 200mg" ... and the chemist balks.

I recall their pushing it and pushing it higher and higher.

However, I just found this ... 200mg is nothing!

There are a lot of different medications that use dopamine and for very different things -- too many drugs with DOPA in the generic name. Since that story was so long ago things have changed dramatically. *Here they are talking GRAMS, not milligrams. And in this case Laradopa seemed more to the point than say Levadopa. This is getting WAAAAY out of my league.* Time for medical school again, lol.

http://www.rxlist.com <--- plug in Dopamine and you'll find a lot of stuff to keep you intrigued







You know this is off the wall, but I am seriously considering taking a community college course in Chemistry for the Hell of it. Seriously. In THAT case I have nothing to lose.
-----------------------
"*Larodopa* is indicated in the treatment of idiopathic Parkinson's disease (Paralysis Agitans), postencephalitic parkinsonism, symptomatic parkinsonism which may follow injury to the nervous system by carbon monoxide intoxication, and manganese intoxication. It is indicated in those elderly patients believed to develop parkinsonism in association with cerebral arteriosclerosis.

*DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION*

*The optimal daily dose of Larodopa, i.e., the dose producing maximal improvement with tolerated side effects, must be determined and carefully titrated for each individual patient. The usual initial dosage is 0.5 g to 1 g daily, divided into two or more doses with food.*

The total daily dosage is then increased gradually in increments not more than 0.75 g every 3 to 7 days as tolerated. The usual optimal *therapeutic dosage should not exceed 8 g. The exceptional patient may carefully be given more than 8 g as required. In some patients, a significant therapeutic response may not be obtained until 6 months of treatment.*

In the event general anesthesia is required, Larodopa therapy may be continued as long as the patient is able to take fluids and medication by mouth. If therapy is temporarily interrupted, the usual daily dosage may be administered as soon as the patient is able to take oral medication. Whenever therapy has been interrupted for longer periods, dosage should again be adjusted gradually; however, in many cases the patient can be rapidly titrated to his/her previous therapeutic dosage."
------------------------
I think I have the book around here somewhere, and yet I think I loaned it someone, and ... that was a long time ago. GAH!









Oh, and 1 GRAM is 1,000 MG. I take for example 200mg of Lamictal.
In Awakenings, and I'm not certain at all, they may have gone up to 600mg in a patient. I just know I was stunned at the amount, and they were in completely unknown territory. And again sadly the effects wore off after a period of time in ALL the patients.


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## Guest (Jun 16, 2011)

Everything is so new fangled and out of my league this is useless. The Rx List notes that one doesn't take carbidopa alone, that it is accompanied by levadopa. All of this stuff is in relation to Parkinson's disease.

In this case, a medication that looks like what you're talking about:

*SINEMET® (carbidopa-levodopa) is a combination of carbidopa and levodopa for the treatment of Parkinson's disease and syndrome.*

Carbidopa, an inhibitor of aromatic amino acid decarboxylation, is a white, crystalline compound, slightly soluble in water, with a molecular weight of 244.3. It is designated chemically as (-)-L-α-hydrazino-α-methyl-β-(3,4-dihydroxybenzene) propanoic acid monohydrate. Its empirical formula is C10H14N2O4•H2O, and its structural formula is:

[... don't have the image.]

*There are four doses, this is the highest in pill form?:*
SINEMET (carbidopa-levodopa) 25-250, containing *25 mg of carbidopa and 250 mg of levodopa.*

Hey, your name is Visual! Well, dude, it helps as I end up only typing some of people's names.


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

*Hey, your name is Visual!*

Yea, chopped off a little to make it simpler - one small step for man [Dude]&#8230;

It isn't so different so as to confuse identity (I hope)

*encephalitis lethargica*

[ the disease in _Awakenings_ ] is still an active disease. There were a couple of outbreaks 80-90 years ago where these patients came from.

Today there are occasional cases and little is understood about it

*one doesn't take carbidopa alone*

This is interesting history&#8230;

In 1965 Dr Birkmayer (?) was investigating a decarboxylase inhibitor, benserazide - a tranquilizer and antihypertensive. Since it inhibits dopamine syntheses, it seemed good to try for people suffering chorea (increased movements). However it make chorea worse.

So he decided to try in on Parkinson's disease in combination with levodopa - it made levodopa work better and got ride of the problems of nausea, emesis and orthostatism.

In the end, this was a major breakthrough since levodopa make most people (even with PD) feel sick. The combination carbidopa/levodopa has been marketed as Sinemet [the name derived from the latin words, sin (meaning "without") and emet (meaning "to vomit") ]

It took a while to figure out how it worked but basically the body preferentially uses carbidopa over levodopa though it has no useful function. Carbidopa does NOT cross the blood-brain barrier. So it keeps the body busy while the levodopa gets up to the brain for potential usage.

Dosing of the carbidopa portion is kept in the 75-100mg / day range. Then levodopa is taken according to needs. Advanced PD patients may take 1000mg of levodopa a day.

Well, a little medical lore to brighten the day&#8230;

*relevance to DP/DR*

As you know, I have encouraged chronic suffers to discuss the possible trial of dopamine agonists with their doctors. Particularly if there have been visual changes with the onset of the disorder. The reasons are:

1) Personal experience ( of course _testimonies_ are not worth too much )
2) Research into dopamine in perceptive processes, particularly vision
3) It is virtually untried with the disorder (I was especially reminded of this when it was not listed as a psychoactive - curious, good old _Wiki_ describes it as psychoactive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-DOPA)

As there are many possible roots of DP/DR, it is unlikely that this would be a major breakthrough, lol

My visual (and other neurological) reactions to dopamine are dramatic and virtually undocumented. Though, finally in the course of 4 years, I've talked to 2 doctors who are familiar with dopamine being critical for visual processing. One recently said that seeing in frames or with trails is a dopamine problem.

The dose I have been taking for some time is ½ pill (Sinemet 25/100) 1-2 times a day - which is below the starting dose for suffers of PD.

*Visual, it's interesting that what seems to REALLY matter in "mental health" and health in the body is "homeostasis" - balance*

This is a major difficulty with medicine (or strong 'naturals') - almost as a rule, only parts of the brain/body have a problem and need help. The rest gets overloaded and, thus, side-effects.

I've always advocated minimal dosing as a way to try to deal with this. But this isn't always correct: what if you took only ½ the chemo dose necessary - the success of the whole treatment regime could be at jeopardy.

*drugs, vs. "Natural" remedies*

As not to stray too far from the purpose of this thread, I agree with your concern about trying natural psychoactives.

I have no doubt as for _potential_ benefits of low doses. And a few have 'reset their brain' with them. But it is a serious gamble. Others here report getting worse.

How does one establish any sort of risk/benefit ratio? Not that a number would provide an answer anymore than investing in stocks.

Saw a documentary on medical use of marijuana. They had interviews with the doctor who isolated/identified THC in the mid 1960s. He is in Israel and uses it in treatment for some patients. But he expressed concern about how legalization has been done in California because there is no knowing the strength and dosing that is being done. Otherwise, he is all for it.

Well, hope you are feeling better. I don't think that carbidopa will be of any use to you in this case &#8230; but hear that medical marijuana might just be the ticket









Wish everyone on this site success in improving the quality of their life


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## Sleepwalker (Dec 4, 2008)

Dreamer* said:


> In light of the discussion of Ayahuasca, I had to reiterate two things, and I hope these charts post.
> 
> In Chemistry we learn that ALL THINGS ON EARTH are made up of a limited number of elements. Water is H2O Hydrogen and Oxygen. And every drug, rec or otherwise comes from the SAME Periodic Table. The same source at a MOLECULAR LEVEL.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the negative, Dreamer--hit wrong button by mistake but your finding is intriguing.
Note!: If you have Internet Explorer * or Google Chrome you could enlarge the image . Chrome: Select the tool at top right. Select "+" next to 100% zoom. The more you press "+" is the bigger the image gets.
IE 8: Go into "view" in the "menu" bar and there is an option similar to Chrome's


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2011)

Sleepwalker said:


> Sorry for the negative, Dreamer--hit wrong button by mistake but your finding is intriguing.
> Note!: If you have Internet Explorer * or Google Chrome you could enlarge the image . Chrome: Select the tool at top right. Select "+" next to 100% zoom. The more you press "+" is the bigger the image gets.
> IE 8: Go into "view" in the "menu" bar and there is an option similar to Chrome's


No worries.







I hate the rating system here.

Thanks, I'll try this, but I have an older iMAC (with the highest OS though -- well Leopard). Have Google Chrome.


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