# Choline, Inositol and B Vits etc



## Zee Deveel

Just took my first "hit" of these and I'm feeling pretty unusual. Losing my concentration rapidly, feel really spaced out but almost a little excited... Actually it feels like my serotonin levels are way up.

Is there likely to be an adjument period with this like starting SSRIs? I remember feeling odd for the first few days of them.


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## Zee Deveel

Ok, well that was an awful experience.

Serotonin levels went through the roof (I recognise this cause i used to take ecstasy), then i started to feel super derealized, couldnt concentrate and felt very dizzy. This triggered a really bad panic attack. Though I was dying of Serotonin Sickness.

I recommend anyone who's on SSRIs to be VERY cautious with this stuff.


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## Garjon

i could be wrong but i thought tommy said not to take it if you were taking ssri's..again, i could be wrong.


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## backagain

If you're on SSRI's then don't take it, you could get something called serotonin syndrome where you have too much serotonin.

I don't understand what is it that is making the serotonin levels rise ? I don't think inositol or choline work on anything except acetylcholine


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## Tommygunz

its the B3, B6, inositol and 5 HTP that make the serotonin rise, potentially faster than any antidepressant. and yes, DO NOT TAKE 5 HTP WITH SSRI's. it is almost guaranteed to induce serotonin syndrome.


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## dragonhat

Zee Deveel, I had a similar experience the day after I started taking the supplements, although it didn't trigger a panic attack.

I haven't had a panic attack caused by DP/DR since I learned what DP/DR was actually. The experience I had was, I suppose, uncomfortable, but I was excited because I thought it might be the DP/DR getting ready to click off. It didn't happen though, and I only had one or two more of those types of experiences since then, both in the days immediately following that one.

I take trazodone, which isn't an SSRI. I only take it for sleep issues, not for depression.

You may want to think about weaning yourself off your SSRI though, and going onto just the choline, inositol and b-supplements. Inositol has been shown, in a couple of tests, to be more effective at treating panic disorder, OCD, bulimia, and depression than SSRIs like fluvoxamine, and without all the potential side effects.

I've noticed a greater increase in mood from taking just the supplements than I ever did with SSRIs, although I don't know if they're doing much for my DP/DR.


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## Guest

Ummmm I'm pretty sure I posted on the theory thread NOT to take 5HTP with SSRIs and probably tommygunz did too?
Sorry to hear you had a bad time, good thing you stopped when you did though, serotonin syndrome can be fatal.

I think the warning should be put in bold on the thread perhaps?


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## backagain

dragonhat said:


> Zee Deveel, I had a similar experience the day after I started taking the supplements, although it didn't trigger a panic attack.
> 
> *I haven't had a panic attack caused by DP/DR since I learned what DP/DR was actually. The experience I had was, I suppose, uncomfortable, but I was excited because I thought it might be the DP/DR getting ready to click off.* It didn't happen though, and I only had one or two more of those types of experiences since then, both in the days immediately following that one.
> 
> I take trazodone, which isn't an SSRI. I only take it for sleep issues, not for depression.
> 
> You may want to think about weaning yourself off your SSRI though, and going onto just the choline, inositol and b-supplements. Inositol has been shown, in a couple of tests, to be more effective at treating panic disorder, OCD, bulimia, and depression than SSRIs like fluvoxamine, and without all the potential side effects.
> 
> I've noticed a greater increase in mood from taking just the supplements than I ever did with SSRIs, although I don't know if they're doing much for my DP/DR.


It could be the anti-cholinergic effects of trazadone combined with cholinergic supplements like inositol and choline that's causing the discomfort.

Also Tommygunz I've been doing research on 5htp and while it is a precursor to serotonin, it is mainly converted into serotonin in the liver and has to go through the heart, which I heard is not very good for you. Also in my experiences the effects of 5-htp are relatively short in duration and weak in activation of serotonin and when abruptly stopped cause some mood problems.

There are alternatives to 5- htp that may be more effective.

Tryptophan- plays a significant role in the synthesis of Serotonin
rhodiola rosea- is a plant extract that can keep levels of neurotransmitters steady due it's possible monoamine oxidase inhibition(maoi), which is a catalytic enzyme responsible for the breakdown of serotonin, dopamine, norepepeniphrine and adrenaline into a group of different metabolites.

I would be very careful though I must warn that if you are going to take a serotonin booster combined with a supposed maoi then you could have more serotonin then you would need and it would breakdown too slowly. So I would encourage anyone interested to try one at a time without combining any serotonin boosters together.

- Trypto


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## Zee Deveel

Phased: I didn't take 5-HTP mate, that woulda killed me for sure. I also wrote in Tommy's "revised thread" a recommendation for people to not take this while on SSRIs. However it seems just what I took was enough to screw me up.

I took 1000mg of Inositol, 1000mg of Choline and a Sublingual B Complex.

There's definitely something to the theory. I could clearly feel my serotonin being boosted, but I think with the SSRIs it was too much.

I really think before throwing these theories around though the warnings should be made *MUCH* more clear. Messing with your brain chemicals is a very dangerous thing. I researched the interactions of everything I took before I took them and still came unstuck. If I'd been less cautious and hadn't known about the dangers of 5-HTP, I could easily be dead right now.


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## backagain

I think everyone's brain chemistry is different and taking full on dosages of anything at the same time could be a gamble. It's important to start slowly and see how you react at first then gradually go up in dosage to see if any significant changes occur.


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## Zee Deveel

Yeah I definitely agree.

The package came in the post and I was too eager to try it. Big mistake but hey-ho! I'm not dead.

So why do you guys say come off the Citalopram? Is there much evidence to support it being unbeneficial?


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## backagain

Zee Deveel said:


> Yeah I definitely agree.
> 
> The package came in the post and I was too eager to try it. Big mistake but hey-ho! I'm not dead.
> 
> So why do you guys say come off the Citalopram? Is there much evidence to support it being unbeneficial?


Well I don't think you should come off the citalopram, actually i haven't even heard of it in this thread. If the SSRI is working for you then I would stay on it and nobody here is an actual doctor or professional. So take everyone's advice with a grain of salt. Listen to your doctor and trust your own intuition


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## dreamingoflife

I was on citalopram for about 3 weeks and it made me so much worse than I started off feeling. I had to stop taking it because I started to get suicidal thinking. I still don't feel 100% back to the way I felt pre med but some swear and live by antidepressants helping so maybe it will help you. Good luck with it. Maybe you will have a lot better luck than I did.


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## Guest

Zee Deveel said:


> Phased: I didn't take 5-HTP mate, that woulda killed me for sure. I also wrote in Tommy's "revised thread" a recommendation for people to not take this while on SSRIs. However it seems just what I took was enough to screw me up.
> 
> I took 1000mg of Inositol, 1000mg of Choline and a Sublingual B Complex.
> 
> There's definitely something to the theory. I could clearly feel my serotonin being boosted, but I think with the SSRIs it was too much.
> 
> I really think before throwing these theories around though the warnings should be made *MUCH* more clear. Messing with your brain chemicals is a very dangerous thing. I researched the interactions of everything I took before I took them and still came unstuck. If I'd been less cautious and hadn't known about the dangers of 5-HTP, I could easily be dead right now.


yeah definitely should be more warnings. this is part of the reason I was quite apprehensive about claymore posting everywhere about it being a definite cure etc etc, you have to be SO careful with these things, that's why any drug on the market has to go through rigorous quality/safety testing and even then they get it wrong.
glad you are ok anyway! perhaps half the dosage? I've been taking 500mg each of inositol and choline along with the sublingual, and I am on venlafaxine and mirtazopine and not had any adverse effects so you should be ok? (I know venlafaxine is an SNRI but it's a similar mechanism and still elevates serotonin)


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## dragonhat

backagain said:


> Zee Deveel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I definitely agree.
> 
> The package came in the post and I was too eager to try it. Big mistake but hey-ho! I'm not dead.
> 
> So why do you guys say come off the Citalopram? Is there much evidence to support it being unbeneficial?
> 
> 
> 
> Well I don't think you should come off the citalopram, actually i haven't even heard of it in this thread. If the SSRI is working for you then I would stay on it and nobody here is an actual doctor or professional. So take everyone's advice with a grain of salt. Listen to your doctor and trust your own intuition
Click to expand...

I personally recommend coming off of it, simply because with all I've read into SSRIs, I don't think they are of much benefit to the vast majority of people they are prescribed to. There have been a lot of studies that show that they are only mildly more effective than placebo drugs at raising mood, and they come with a host of side effects. I don't know anyone in my life who has benefited (long term) from taking SSRIs. Everyone I know who has taken them, has felt good the first week to 2 months, then either started going incredibly up and down, or just straight downhill. I've taken citalopram, prozac, zoloft, effexor, as well as other antidepressants like wellbutrin, and mood stabilizers like lamictal. I think they're all crap and recommend for pretty much everyone to stay away. This is just my advice though... like you said, I'm not a doctor. But I think there's too much profit tied up in making people "feel better" with antidepressants that natural things that work better, like inositol, get overlooked.
Plus, doctors are way too liberal with them. Oh, you're having panic attacks? Have some celexa. You get headaches? Take zoloft. You're sad because you hate your life? Prozac works for that. Your thumb hurts? SSRI's help with vague pains, take some of this.

I just think they're over-prescribed, non-effective, and a nuisance when it comes to side effects.


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## backagain

I'll have to agree with you, my personal experience with SSRi's is the same

But if he is in trouble and can't deal with it on his own then SSRi's do help to a degree


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## dragonhat

I just remembered its good to post links to studies instead of just saying "I read a study that showed...".
So I googled, and came across this Time article, which I will include as support for my above comment.

And I forgot, I still can't post links.

Well, if anyone's interested, I just googled "antidepressant placebo" and the Time article was on the first page of results.


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## Zee Deveel

Thanks for your input folks, I'm gonna do some more research into Citalopram.

I'm having some heart tests done soon which should cure a great deal of my anxiety and then I'll see about wheening myself off the SSRIs and maybe onto the herbal stuff!


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## dragonhat

Do you have a pre-existing heart condition, or do you only start to worry about your heart when you're feeling anxious?

Its common for people with panic attacks to think they're about to have a heart attack, which can raise anxiety, and just spin off into a self-perpetuating cycle for panic attacks and anxiety.

How old are you?


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## dragonhat

Do you have a pre-existing heart condition, or do you only start to worry about your heart when you're feeling anxious?

Its common for people with panic attacks to think they're about to have a heart attack, which can raise anxiety, and just spin off into a self-perpetuating cycle for panic attacks and anxiety.

How old are you? Are you of the age where heart disease is a concern?

I realize this is a double post. At first, when it hit submit, I just had "how old are you", but I realized that could be taken wrong, like I was saying "wtf dude come on, how old are you?", when what I really meant was, are you old enough for heart problems to be a likely problem.
I hit "stop" while the post was being submitted, then after changing it I hit submit, thus resulting in the double post.


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## Zee Deveel

dragonhat said:


> Do you have a pre-existing heart condition, or do you only start to worry about your heart when you're feeling anxious?
> 
> Its common for people with panic attacks to think they're about to have a heart attack, which can raise anxiety, and just spin off into a self-perpetuating cycle for panic attacks and anxiety.
> 
> How old are you? Are you of the age where heart disease is a concern?
> 
> I realize this is a double post. At first, when it hit submit, I just had "how old are you", but I realized that could be taken wrong, like I was saying "wtf dude come on, how old are you?", when what I really meant was, are you old enough for heart problems to be a likely problem.
> I hit "stop" while the post was being submitted, then after changing it I hit submit, thus resulting in the double post.


Lol well... I've always had concerns about my heart before I had anxiety. I have an extremely strong heart beat, a fairly high resting pulse and my ECGs have always shown a slight anomaly which they have said is benign.

Anyways several months ago I took some ecstasy (for the first time in years and the last time ever) and had my first ever panic attack which lasted about 5 hours. Ever since then I've suffered chest pains and a strange vibrating sensation in my upperbody which have led to further panic attacks.

So I'm not sure. I hope it's just the stress from that night and the subsequent worrying which is causing my heart concerns, but not knowing for sure is unnerving. Part of me thinks that the severity of the panic I had combined with the ecstasy may have physically damaged my heart.

I'm 23 by the way.


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