# Temporal Lobes



## distantdawn

I have been reading this book called "Healing Anxiety and Depression" by Daniel G. Amen, M. D. and Lisa C. Routh, M. D. and it describes temporal lobe problems-

memory problems
learning problems
mood instability
agression, internally or externally driven
dark or violent thoughts
sensitivity to slights, mild paranoia
word finding problems
unusual headaches or abdominal pain
difficulty recognizing facial expression
difficulty decoding vocal intonation
implicated in social skill struggles
abnormal sensory perceptions, visual or auditory distortions
feelings of deja vu or jamais vu
religious or moral preoccupation
siezures

The tempral lobes "help you recognize the people you love along with those you'de like to forget." They are directly connected to the amygdala which helps you "integrate the current world based on your past expreiences."

This book goes on to describe other parts of the brain and the thought disturbances that go along with them.


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## Universal

Does the book go into any cures regarding these problems? :?:


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## distantdawn

I found a website that explains the temporal lobe association. I know that we all understand that this has to do with the temporal lobes, but this is just further evidence that it is real and it is not "made up." Next time you see your doctor you can tell them that the main problem is the malfunction of your temporal lobes, and of course other factors, but the lobes play a significant role.

http://www.emedicine.com/NEURO/topic365.htm


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## distantdawn

With a SPECT scan to identify the problem and make sure it is the temporal lobes... 
you can either try:

Supplements: Gaba 1,500 mgs daily

Anticonvulsants or antisiezure medications combined with antidepressants
(book has a list of medications)

Cognitive therapy- ANTS and ANTeaters

I personally cannot afford a SPECT scan and I am sure that many out there can't as well, but DP and DR are what I have and they are obviously onset by a temporal lobe problem.


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## distantdawn

The amygdala or "fear" part of the brain is directly related to the temporal lobes. To me, this explains the reason why those who have been through traumas and taken drugs have developed this. The amygdala must have been directly affected and causes fear or "panic" spinning the temporal lobes off into a tangent, even causing permanent change for some of us and possibly (TLE). I know there is nothing new about this. Most of the areas in the brain are closely connected anyway, so if there are some things that don't fit into the temporal lobe category they must be caused by an off-source. I am just sharing my opinions, I could be wrong, though.


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## [rula]

distantdawn said:


> I personally cannot afford a SPECT scan and I am sure that many out there can't as well, but DP and DR are what I have and they are obviously onset by a temporal lobe problem.


You don't _have_ to get a scan, the amen clinic can prescibe you meds based on just symptoms. or you can talk to your psych about the research done at King's college on Lamictal and dp/dr, the same anticonvulsant that the Amen clinic would most likely prescribe any how for temporal lobe issues. but just so you'd know, lots of people here have tried it, and it didn't do that much. so you might have to play with a couple of different anticonvulsants. Personally I only have 3 or 4 of the symptoms of TL problems, so I'd rather just take the GABA supplements. oh wait, been there already :roll:


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## freesong

I was on Lamictal when I was coming off of Xanax and this happened so it confuses me a great deal. I do have many of the symptoms of temporal lobe epilepsy and in the past was on Xanax and added Depakote and it made a huge difference but I was not experiencing DP at that time. Don't want to discourage anyone from trying though for I know what areas are sighted in the medical papers and both mentioned above are a part.


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## Luka

That's interesting DistantDawn! Thank you for writing this.


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## widescreened

interesting post distantdawn.you should read dreamer and homeskooleds accounts of pet scans and neurology.

unfortunately,neuropsychiatry is not widely used today due to the impracticallities of expense and limited facilities.also,pharmacutical companies have a product that they want to sell and stand to loose a fortune if any alternative treatments come along.i remember homeschooled put a figure of 25 years before effective treatment of this disorder thru neuropsychiatry is fully up and running.

for these reasons,i think it is wise to addopt freudian approaches to the problem.learning to live with this condition,accepting it and eventually comming thru it was my route.i do still have obsessive issues,but i always did,even as a child,which leads me to believe that i may be a 'victim'of temporal lobe dysfunction.i always suffered from some of the conditions you have listed.

also,blaming factore such as neurological functioning may be a way of passing responsibility away from yourself thus remaining entrenched in the condition.(i used to believe i was posessed by evil spirits,the ultimate passing the buck on!!)the majority of people that have gone for scans on this site have reported back saying nothing showed up.also,if something did show up,how would it be treated??we would almost have to erase all memory of this disorder to start afresh.not going to happen either.for this reason i believe that accepting yourself is the first step away form this horrific disorder.

finally,i read janine bakers book on the subject.i know she fell out of favour with people on this site,i cant comment on that end of things,but on face value,her book was a very excellent read indeed and helped me hugely.there are others that people refer to on this site,claire weekes being another.try reading one book and see if you can relate to the advice.

i really like your avatar as well distantdawn.you have to be artistic.


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## Guyver-Gabriel

hi everyone!

say, with proper conditions, can the temporal lobes be restored to initial functionning? thats the question really buzzing thru my mind right now.
thx for replies

Gabriel


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## [rula]

Guyver-Gabriel said:


> say, with proper conditions, can the temporal lobes be restored to initial functionning?


absolutely. many people here, and on other forums have recovered from dp/dr by doing nothing more than following the advice in Janine's and Claire Weeks' books. accept it, and focus outwards, along with some breathing exercises to quiet down the temporal lobes.

Or, you could try going the medications route esp if you're not against them and you already are on one that's not working, you might as well try one that _could_ hold a cure, like the anticonvulsants meds.


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## Homeskooled

Dear Distantdawn, 
Dr. Amen, and one of his clinic doctors, helped cure my DP. I'm now personal friends with Dr. Shepard. This is where I first began forming my theory of how the temporal and parietal lobes cause DP. There are links to his sites on our links page, and you'll hear me talk about him quite a bit. I'm glad someone else finally read his books and took some of it to heart....there's alot of feetdragging when it comes to a biological approach to DP, in general.

peace
Homeskooled


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## Kelson12

Homeskooled said:


> Dear Distantdawn,
> Dr. Amen, and one of his clinic doctors, helped cure my DP. I'm now personal friends with Dr. Shepard. This is where I first began forming my theory of how the temporal and parietal lobes cause DP. There are links to his sites on our links page, and you'll hear me talk about him quite a bit. I'm glad someone else finally read his books and took some of it to heart....there's alot of feetdragging when it comes to a biological approach to DP, in general.
> 
> peace
> Homeskooled


Home,

Is it possible to calm and/or restore the temporal lobes without medication? I'm not real big into meds. I haven't tried the ones you recommend, except I think I tried Lamictal for a little bit. I just wondered if it is possible in your mind for someone to recover without meds. Curious.

Kelson


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## Guyver-Gabriel

see, i want to recover "the natural" way... no medications nothing that sounds like XANAXOELYTHENOL smth smth but on the other hand, i hear so many bad things. for example, like if your lobe is damaged in some particular way you have almost no chance of recovering blah blah and as positive as i want to be i just cant help relate...so i mean, rula, well thk u for replying with such a recomforting reply but forgive me for really making sure...any temporal lobe damage can actually be "restored"?

sorry for being pessimistic


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## Guest

distantdawn said:


> The amygdala or "fear" part of the brain is directly related to the temporal lobes. To me, this explains the reason why those who have been through traumas and taken drugs have developed this. The amygdala must have been directly affected and causes fear or "panic" spinning the temporal lobes off into a tangent, even causing permanent change for some of us and possibly (TLE). I know there is nothing new about this. Most of the areas in the brain are closely connected anyway, so if there are some things that don't fit into the temporal lobe category they must be caused by an off-source. I am just sharing my opinions, I could be wrong, though.


I'm so glad I saw your post. I knew about the amygdala as the 'seat of fear' but had no idea of its connection to the temporal lobes. New food for research.

I agree with your comments that if some things don't fit the 'temporal lobe category' they must be caused by an off-source.' 'Wholistically speaking' the thigh bone is connected to the kneebone, etc.  I can pull a single hair on the top of my head and feel a twinge in my hip, for example. If there are 'wires' that connect THOSE 'dots' then what on earth could be going on in the brain. Know what I mean? :wink:


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## Guest

kelson12 said:


> Homeskooled said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Distantdawn,
> Dr. Amen, and one of his clinic doctors, helped cure my DP. I'm now personal friends with Dr. Shepard. This is where I first began forming my theory of how the temporal and parietal lobes cause DP. There are links to his sites on our links page, and you'll hear me talk about him quite a bit. I'm glad someone else finally read his books and took some of it to heart....there's alot of feetdragging when it comes to a biological approach to DP, in general.
> 
> peace
> Homeskooled
> 
> 
> 
> Home,
> 
> Is it possible to calm and/or restore the temporal lobes without medication? I'm not real big into meds. I haven't tried the ones you recommend, except I think I tried Lamictal for a little bit. I just wondered if it is possible in your mind for someone to recover without meds. Curious.
> 
> Kelson
Click to expand...

 I'm not sure about healing without some form of medication or 'remedy.' Personally, I got my best results with homeopathic remedies. They are 'vibrational' as well as physical. They, more than anything else, supported my recovery. And no side effects.


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## [rula]

Guyver-Gabriel said:


> ...any temporal lobe damage can actually be "restored"?


you TL is not "damaged" it's just working too hard, it's overactive, kinda like when you are stressed and your heart beats a little too fast but it's not going to explode. sure that over actitvity shows up on scans, so does depression, so does lying (they're now using SPECT scans as lie detectors) but that doesn't mean it's damaged, and no it doesn't mean you _have_ to take XANAXOELYTHENOL for it any more than you have to take a pill when parts of your brain light up when you lie.

people recover naturally from this ever day, I wish the benzo forum wasn't private cuz I can show you stories of hundreds of people who got over dp/dr with no meds whatsoever. It's a pretty well known and documented fact that benzo withdrawal leads to overactive temporal lobes, it's no different from any other case of dp/dr. but it goes away with time and acceptance. You just have to learn a few tricks to keep your TL from working so hard, that's all. and if you have to take a pill to help you get there, so be it, just don't make it a habit, and try to relax :wink:


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## Methusala

Rula, what is the web address of the Benzo forum? What methods did they use to get rid of their DP?

Thanks,
M


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## [rula]

Methusala said:


> Rula, what is the web address of the Benzo forum? What methods did they use to get rid of their DP?


benzoisland.org, but like i said it's private. the only way you'll get an account is if you lie and say you're trying to come off of a benzo, and even then they won't give you full access for a few days.

the methods are nothing new, the same stuff in Janine's book, and Claire Weeks. accept it, distract, keep your mind busy, eat well, exersice, avoid stimulants and above all avoid all psychotropic meds or anything that affects the central nervous system (and keeps your liver working overtime)...no herbs, no vitamins, no aminos, bascially just eat whole organic foods, and give your body a break, it can heal itself. it's not as popular view as "take a pill", I know.


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## Homeskooled

Dear Kelson, 
Thats a tough question. There are a couple ways I know of. Taking Omega 3,6, and 9s helps repair brain tissue if the damage occurred from an accident. Octoconasol has also been used to help with oxygenation of brain tissue. Therapies which have been shown to help? Only ones I know of are breathing exercises when you experience perceptual shifts and anxiety attacks. These are used for low-grade epilepsy.

Other than that, Rula's comments bring up another interesting point. The metabolic disease that I have in spades, called porphyria, has been shown to be found in the general population in about 1 percent of people. But in mental hospitals, it exists in about 45 percent of the population that we know of. It may be higher. I follow an organic diet, and remove all artificial body products and cleaning products from my apartment. I also removed all preservatives and naturally occuring sulfates from my diet. These are all things known by science to be "porphyrigenic". In other words, if you have this certain enzyme deficiency, these will increase the amount of toxic proteins, ie porphyrins, your body makes. It really helps with me, because when I get an attack, my liver noticeably swells and I get nerve pains in my abdomen, arms and legs. Now here's the part where it may overlap with DP - my roommate is on Lamictal for bipolar disorder. Recently, he stopped all of the chemicals he was using (for my sake since we share the same apartment). He immediately noticed he had more energy and less mood swings. This week he began following my diet. Another huge improvement. He's getting more gung-ho about this stuff than I am. And as I said before, I think alot of these diseases have an X factor, on top of what is known. I think Tim has a temporal lobe factor. But I think he may have found his X factor this week. If we tested him, I have a feeling during his manic periods he would be excreting porphyirins, as many people in psych hospitals were found to. I'm just throwing this out there, Kelson and Rula. I dont like it when people find that something works for them and then prescribe it to everyone else as a cure-all, unless there is conclusive data about it. Thats how I view the temporal lobe and DP. But I'm not at all sure about porphyria and mental illness or DP. You guys can give it a shot, though. Porphyria WILL lower your seizure threshold. Remove all sulfate from your diet. Anything with preservatives. Tomatoes, broccoli, cauliflower, brusselsprouts, soy, corn, grapes. Stop eating them. Use only natural body products. Find a detergent that is completely natural for your clothes. Get to a clean air environment. You'd have to leave Time Square and get into the clean air (yeah right) in New Jersey or something, Rula. If your mood improves, brain fog dissipates, then you'd know.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Kelson12

rula said:


> Methusala said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rula, what is the web address of the Benzo forum? What methods did they use to get rid of their DP?
> 
> 
> 
> benzoisland.org, but like i said it's private. the only way you'll get an account is if you lie and say you're trying to come off of a benzo, and even then they won't give you full access for a few days.
> 
> the methods are nothing new, the same stuff in Janine's book, and Claire Weeks. accept it, distract, keep your mind busy, eat well, exersice, avoid stimulants and above all avoid all psychotropic meds or anything that affects the central nervous system (and keeps your liver working overtime)...no herbs, no vitamins, no aminos, bascially just eat whole organic foods, and give your body a break, it can heal itself. it's not as popular view as "take a pill", I know.
Click to expand...

why do you say no vitamins??


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## [rula]

kelson12 said:


> why do you say no vitamins??


cuz unless you've been diagnosed with a specific deficiency, if you eat unprocessed organic food, your body will get all the vitamins it needs. synthetic vitamins are actually incomplete fractions of the real vitamins found in food, usually referred to as "dead or lifeless" chemicals. they're not absorbed by the body well, and in the mega doses concentrated pills we take, they mostly end up being a lot of extra work for the liver, and get flushed right out.


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## Scattered

Homeskooled said:


> Remove all sulfate from your diet. Anything with preservatives. Tomatoes, broccoli, cauliflower, brusselsprouts, soy, corn, grapes. Stop eating them.


Isn't this a somewhat dangerous diet to follow? Personally, my diet sucks because I have very small amounts of the above foods in my diet. I don't understand how a person can adapt to a long-term diet that seems to be devoid of vegetables required for the functioing of the body.


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## Homeskooled

The only major thing one lacks without these is lycopene. I can eat all other fruits and vegetables, and even lycopene I get from other sources.


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## [rula]

and if you combine all those veggies with all the nightshade group I'm not supposed to eat for my Macrobiotics diet, eggplants, spinach, potatoes, and peppers...i might as well just become a breatharian


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## freesong

I wish that someone would have warned me that coming off Xanax could do this to my temporal lobes. How frustrating. I was just being impatient I guess. I did have some temporal lobe dysfunction before this I think as the Depakote worked really well at one point. I am going to eat organic foods and do the other things I have said but add the test for whatever Homeskooled has. Looking now for the X factor with more information. These are great posts and wish we could put a sticky here. Thanks to everyone for their input and especially Homeskooled for being diligent enough to come in from his busy schedule to help us. God bless all, freesong P.S. for those of us who have made some radical changes, this condition might have been used to get our attention from the One above. Just a thought! P.S.S. Still think it is a good idea to rid the body of toxins because mercury, lead and other neurtoxins do disrupt and damage as well.


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## Kelson12

I don't know about the diet thing you all are talking about. I eat pretty good. I don't eat alot of junk. I eat alot of protein. I take a multi-vitamin everday as well as 2-3 Omega capsules. I just don't know if making the effort to eliminate all these certain things is really worth it. I just don't know. I mean, Homeskooled knows more than I do, but I'm not sure that that is what is making me so bad. I just don't know if going all organic will make me so much better. It just sounds weird.

Kelson


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## [rula]

freesong said:


> I wish that someone would have warned me that coming off Xanax could do this to my temporal lobes. How frustrating.


freesong, sometimes people who get bad withdrawal symptoms from benzos, like dp/dr which is the worst for ex-klonopin and Xanax users, will get total relief if they go back on the same benzo on a slightly higher dose than before. then they do a very slow taper after they stabilize, water titration is the safest. but it doesn't always work, and I'm sure you had your reasons to come off Xanax. just a thought...


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## freesong

Wow! Thanks for telling me that Rula. My Naturopath doc told me the same thing. He is giving me the natural aminos ( Neuro-replete) (Cys-replete) and I have added some other things like Gaba and Valerian root and others after reading Braverman's book because it shows the lack of Gaba clearly by self-evaluation. He, my Naturopath is the one that is urging me to get the toxins out as well. I really did a number on my brain by going off Xanax cold-turkey and hope anyone who is on benzo's or other drugs (even SSRIs) will be more cautious and listen to the docs when trying to stop. I am scared to go back on the benzos but relieved to know that with time and following instructions carefully, I can help calm my brain and let it heal. I am so thankful that I have found this group and that everyone cares so much for each other. It is wonderful support during a very off-balance time. Thanks again, freesong


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## Homeskooled

Rula and Kelson, 
Rula, can you tell me what the nightshade group is? People with porphyria arent allowed to eat those either. Its not a choice for me. I HAVE to. If I dont, NOT following the diet will shorten my life expectancy. I think its much more important to put only good things in your body, even if its only a couple of good things, than to put junk in AND vitamins. People in the lower castes of India survive off of a diet of rice and salt. The body is very adaptable to low nutritive diets. What it cant take is Mcdonalds for a month.

Kelson, 
What I'm talking about isnt going organic. Its a good step if you have porphyria, but eating a high carb diet without vegetables with sulfates and lowering the amount of chemicals on your body is the way to lower what causes porphyria, my disease. It lowers the "heme burden" on the body by taking away foods and chemicals that stress the liver and bone marrow's enzymes. When I'm porphy, I feel giddy for no apparent reason with tingling in all my extremeties. When its real bad I get liver pain. Most people never get that bad. When I'm only a little bad, I get depressed for no apparent reason and anxious. I wake up in the morning and dont feel like living is worth it. When it gets worse, i just feel drunk. The other way to lower your heme burden is to eat a high carb diet with these changes. I'm just letting you know this, because my depressive bipolar roommate adopted my diet and his mood swings stopped. I didnt plan or anticipate this. I just knew there was overlap with metabolic disorders like mine and mental illness. I also think you have serious temporal lobe issues. But if you want a non-medication route for at least the depressive part (because I think you need a med to stop the micropsia and macropsia), then a food elimination diet like this, with some medical data behind it, might be worth it. It doesnt cost you anything but some will power. Like I said, unlike the temporal lobe problem, I dont have enough data to be positive about this.

Interestingly enough, last night I ran into a frankly paranoid person. Friend of mine, George. Known him for about 12 years, since I was about 14. Dates a hockey buddy of mine's sister. Been in and out of jail on drug charges. Well, he was supposed to fix my car last night, but all we ended up doing was driving around the city trying to lose the "taskforce that was tailing him all day" (there was no such thing). And all I kept thinking, like I usually do around him was - " Wow, severe temporal lobe disorder. Poor perfusion in the prefrontal cortex. I'd give him some Topomax, or Klonopin with something to releive his depression and help him concentrate....maybe Cymbalta" So I sat him down, and gave him a list of meds to ask the doc for. He's responded well to meds in the past. Interestingly, enough though, he was on Wellbutrin and it caused a seizure - I'm betting it was a temporal lobe one. He had it in jail, so we'll never know. But he has severe rages where he sees red. Frequent deja vu. Mild paranoia where he thinks the cops are following him or people are talking about him. Relgious at least in a superstitious way. And I kept thinking that it would be great if you guys could see a really severe case. None of you are this bad.

I would have told him about changing his diet, but I think he's too far gone for trying food elimination. And I know he needs something for his temporal lobe, to slow the mild paranoia. So I gave him some vitamins and some GABA last night, and went home. I think I'm out the 20 bucks I gave him for my car, but its not his fault. He cant help it. Last thing he told me was that he was going to sleep in a cabinet in his kitchen in case the task force raided the house. These are the kind of people that are so bad off, that they dont even get on the Internet. Thank your lucky stars, people, that your temporal lobes havent landed you in jail, made you run around the block evading the police who arent there, and kept you sleeping in cabinets and beating people up in rages. Be thanful that all you do is go in mental circles about existence, philosophy, or the cause of your depression. Some people never get far enough to wonder why they feel how they feel. There really is a case to be made for meds, just as there is a case to be made for diet.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Scattered

There's definately a case to be made for meds. But people like your friend need meds because they pose a threat to themselves or a threat to other people. In cases such as this, I think meds should be used without caution. Whatever is needed to stabilize a person. That being said, I'm not suicidal, violent, paranoid, or pose a threat to anyone. Thats why I choose to not take medication. Meds are a tool but not an exact science. If they were, then there would be a helluva lot less mental illness.


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## Dreamer

Scattered said:


> That being said, I'm not suicidal, violent, paranoid, or pose a threat to anyone. Thats why I choose to not take medication. Meds are a tool but not an exact science. If they were, then there would be a helluva lot less mental illness.


Scattered,
Agreed, everyone has a choice re: how to approach his/her illness save someone who may be incapable of doing so -- who is psychotic, who is a danger to self or others.

And true, "meds are a tool but not an exact science", but one could say that of virtually every other branch of medicine. We don't have cures to MANY major illnesses, not just mental illnesses. And I will say this again, the brain is the most difficult organ to treat. It is the most complex, the least understood.

I cannot understand the resistance to the concept that the brain can get "sick." Or that the brain simply cannot function properly.

And in response to something else in some other post: how is it that neurologists (and I've been to one for evaluation of another condition) know exactly what DP/DR are? They see it in patients with tumors, epilepsy, brain trauma. And when asked "What do I do?" They say, "We don't know yet." A neurologist has nothing to gain or lose by saying what he/she believes in the truth from his/her years of practice.

I don't know how many times I've said this.

It would also make sense that these areas of the brain in these people with VISIBLE damage to the brain, might be affected in our version of DP/DR. And people w/DP/DR have metabolic changes in these same areas it seems (don't quote me) which show up on more advanced scans... albeit scans which are primitive compared to what will be developed in the future.

Also, NONE of us is the same. I keep repeating that and no one seems to hear that.

Granted IMHO. It is obvious that the source of the DP/DR on this Board is different in each person. Predisposition/comorbid mental illnesses/drugs/trauma all contribute. Both Nature and Nurture. And different treatments are required to improve quality of life or literally eliminate the symptoms.

*There is no "one" answer right now. There is no one right answer for the safest Birth Control Pill! Meds like Vioxx for still joints were pulled from the market. Making effective medications that are also as safe as possible isn't easy.*

All of course in my humble opinion. And no one person here has all the answers. We only have our individual experiences for what have worked. This would apply to cancer, AIDS, osteoporosis (should women use hormone replacement therapy or not?) .... the list goes on and on.

I'd say antibiotics might be the closest thing to being drug that really works -- most of the time. But not ALL of the time on every single person.

Of course meds are a tool, or we wouldn't need them. And without many that exist today, those with mental illness of varous kinds, would be completely incapacitated, and that includes some people with DP/DR, depression, OCD, etc., etc., etc.

We don't know all the answers. No one does. We keep searching and doing the best we can. Each of us.

And yes, I suppose mental illness falls on a spectrum, but I know plenty of people who are just dandy. Who do not have the limitations we do. Many.

As Freud said, his only goal was to get people healthy enough to deal with everyday neuroses. He also believed that one day, the neurological underpinnings to mental illness would be discovered. He was first a neurologist and a doctor before he became the first psychiatrist.

EDIT: *Freud also said, mental health was merely the ability to "Work and to Love." Many of us here have limitations in one or both categories. Many or most of us here have both social and occupational difficulties to one degree or another.

I am far from being a Freudian, but the man had a lot of good things to contribute to our understanding of ourselves. But even he, "The Father of Psychiatry" did not have all the answers, and was terribly wrong about some of his theories.*

End of lecture.
Forgive.
D


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## Homeskooled

Scattered, 
Its not so black and white. You dont just randomly use meds on people, whether or not the meds are good for them, or have consequences, just because people are criminals. Thats the problem with the justice system today. "Well, at least they get 3 hots and a cot". Yeah, well, if you dont do it right today, your flawed approach will come back to haunt you. The reason I think that certain meds, based on very clear medical data, help a root cause of DP, is because I feel fairly certain that it IS one of the root causes. If it wasnt, but it somehow stabilized unstable criminals, it would just be lazy medicine. I view antipsychotics as this kind of medicine, especially when its used for aggression. Oh, they help - antipsychotics will help stop seizures - but they arent specific enough, which gives those poor souls a whole host of side effects worse than anticonvulsants, without the benefits. And I think most people have these morphological findings ie, physical brain scan abnormalities with DP, but also have contributing X-factors. I'm not for giving this guy meds just because its all we can do for him - screw the fact that it isnt the best treatment. No, he needs a med to correct the lobe AND he needs to correct his diet if he has a metabolic disease with a neurologic/psychiatric impact like porphyria. Mental illness is so complex, usually I think it is a symptom of several combined problems, and you need cutting edge medical detectives to deal with it promptly, accurately, and efficiently. I'm NOT saying that getting on a med is a bad thing for George. I'm just saying that although I cant get him to now, he should be taking a non-porphy med (Cymbalta and Neurontin are the 2 truly porph-safe psych meds), live in the country, and change his diet. He cant. So we can start with the most dramatic, easiest thing to do in a city. We can pump up his frontal lobe so that he has enough self-control to even think about changing his diet. And we can calm down his temporals enough so that he isnt seeing red and having mood swings. And then, and only then, would he be ready to improve himself in sublte ways.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Scattered

I agree, with most of what you said. The reason I, and perhaps others, are resistant to medication is because they are all too often resorted to for a variety of problems that could otherwise be treated. Taking medication is as much a risk as anything else. It has its positives and it also has its negative aspects. And I won't deny the fact that I'm biased. I think doctors are all to willing to prescribe medication to people at the drop of a hat, because of the medicalization of mental illness. For every George, who I'm sure has a sick brain, there are many others who are the way they are because of conditions they have control over. People consciously look for the easy way out. If there is a pill that lessens anxiety, they'd would rather take that then exert the effort necessary to change their lifestyle. You might argue that they are incapable, but I'm not talking about a paranoid schizophrenic, I'm talking about Joe-workaholic who chooses to live at his job and expose himself to a variety of stressors and then never exercise while eating horrible foods. If he was to go to a doctor, they would most likely first think about putting him on medication and then afterwards, if at all, address the more obviously negative aspects of his lifestyle.

I think this all comes down to a trend in our society that says we should blame the brain first and the person later, if at all. I went to a support group where a bunch of depressed people said that depression should have no stigma whatsoever, because it's the same as diabetes or heart disease. For people who genetically are predisposed to mental illness, we can adjust our perceptions accordingly. But its like the idea of addiction. I don't blame the heroin addict for wanting another hit, I blame him for shooting heroin in the first place. If you want to say that the majority of mentally ill people have very little responsibility for their conditions, then I suppose that is your opinion. However, I believe we have more control over our lives then we think and are all too willing to look for a scapegoat.


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## [rula]

Homeskooled,
I find your friend's case to be quite interesting, because it mirrors to a certain extent another a case I know. Personally I don't think there's ever a clear cut scenario where meds should be used, not even in this one. Take for example my friend Pascual, started out as a street drug/alcohol user like your friend. psychiatry's fix was to add more chemicals to the mix, Ativan and Paxil. Soon he too was aggressive, paranoid, and seeing red (paxil!) in addition to his original dp/dr which was only getting worse. _maybe_ if he'd been given neurontin of lamictal it would've saved a couple of years of his life, I'd love to beleive that such a specific and targeted med exists, with acceptable risks and side effects...but what he did do was drop all meds, change his diet, and recently he came here and posted his own version of "I found the cure!", his screen name is Argenys.

But it's not just my opinion that even the extreme cases of mental illness do NOT require to be medicated, that the risks outweigh the benefits. Are you familiar with Dr. Breggin's work? http://www.breggin.com in his experience as a psychiatrist ALL mental conditions needs nothing more than understanding, and support.

So fine, whether or not to take meds should be an indivdual choice. I only wonder if I would've made the choice to take Klonopin if my GP had explained that once I try to stop it my dp would get much worse, and I'd also start having panic attacks. A friend of mine attempted suicide last week after getting off klonopin cuz his liver was starting to fail; he thought he'd gone crazy, but really he just had a bad case of dp/dr. so you see like Scattered, I too am biased, and slightly angry even :lol:

We find it justifiable that psychotic people should be medicated despite evidence of neuroleptic's astronomical rates of tardive dyskinesia. then we ignore statistics that show perfectly normal people becoming psychotic after injesting chemicals with totally unpredictable effects on their brain. an 82 year old stabbed his wife of 60 years just last week after taking Wellbutrin. We have better safer alternatives, we're just lazy and want the easy way out.

end of rant.
rula



> Rula, can you tell me what the nightshade group is?


"Potatoes, Tomatoes, Peppers, spinach and Eggplant. The nightshade family of foods do have a potential toxin. This is mother nature?s way of protecting themselves from insect damage. The toxin is found in the green part of these vegetables. Proper choosing and storage can cut down these risks. "


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## Homeskooled

As I never tire of pointing out Scattered, I DO agree with what you are saying. It just is not applicable in all times, in all cases, and in all places. I want to stress again that I beleive these things exist on a continuum - not in black and white - and my beleif in genetic predisposition does not negate my beleif in the possilbility of free will. Yes, of course even the genetically predisposed who give into poor living habits reap the fruits. But thats not the point of good science. The point of it is to correct the genetic misdisposition. The clergy, the therapist, or the person themselves can work on reviewing the worth of their actions. I'm just not going to go whole hog in one direction or the other - I'm not going to be a anti-med, and I'm not going to be anti-alternative therapy, and I'm certainly not going to be anti-take-responsiblity-for-your-actions. In some people, like George, I think the pathology has gone far enough where he lacks any insight into the fact that he is paranoid. Rula's friend had insight. He went to a doctor for meds. The doctor mis-medicated. But at least he had enough insight to say "Hey, I dont feel normal." For him there is more hope of a non-med recovery. Not that the correct medicine wouldnt help correct a predisposition in him, either. I guess my main antipathy towards an all-or-nothing approach to treating mental illness is that this black-and-white mindset is based in fear (there's some of the psychoanalytic approach I've adopted talking). The totally med-inclined fear therapy - fear facing their issues, fear the worsening of their DP, fear years of unproductive analysis, fear hard work. The totally anti-med carry a fear of side effects , a fear of losing control, a fear of trusting, a fear worsening of DP from the wrong med combo. And wherever fear enters, objectivity and reason leaves. You can pick horror stories from both camps. Botched alternative therapies leading to death. People who refuse medication who commit suicide. People on benzos who do the same. To me, these people are all on 2 sides of the same coin. I cant stress enough that I'm in neither camp - I'm for what works when it has good, hard data to prove that the therapy was the source of healing.

Rula, I agree with you to a point. Psychiatry IS lazy. But if I had schizophrenia, I would take a neuroleptic. We dont know the X-factors in this disease yet. Prenatal carrying of toxoplasmosis? High copper and arsenic levels in hair? Abnormalities of porphyrin metabolism? Who knows? Its a syndrome. There are probably hundreds of individual problems which lead to the same symptoms of grey matter atrophy. Until you know the X-factor, you better control your dopamine misfiring, or you'll kill yourself, someone else, or wander your respective city aimlessly speaking to the man on the corner who isnt there. Sure it controls the symptoms - but until you know the root, you'd better take care of what you do know. Noone can sort out a medical problem like schizophrenia without something to keep them rational while they do. I expect if I contracted schizophrenia I would probably NOT know what was causing it. I'd get close. I might visit the Pfeiffer Treatment center for metabolic analysis. I might make sure I ruled out porphyria, which I have, and which contributes and/or mimics it. I might try a macrobiotic diet. I might try chelation.I'd definitely take fish oil. But I'd still probably be a bit unhinged. And I'd take the neuroleptic with the least side effects, Abilify, provided it reduced my positive and negative symptoms. I know many people fear neuroleptics like the plague, but there is a reason behind their existence. Just because we fear them does not make them evil. I've read dozens of accounts of alternative therapies curing people with schizophrenia. Most of them are poorly strung together and usually selling some sort of alternative lab test. Every once in a while, I read one that sounds legitamite. But the legitamite ones are all different approaches with different causes. Being a doctor and correctly treating a schizophrenic with all of the misinformation out there is tough work. Because you are RESPONSIBLE for this human being. If he kills someone, ends up on the streets, or jumps off a roof. Psychiatry isnt as ignorant and unfeeling as some would like to think, and it isnt half as ambitious as some would like to think. Somewhere in the middle, as in most things, lies the truth. Incidentally, how is the treatment of the hyperventilation going? If it isnt stopping the DP, you owe me the "most radioactive brainscan out there."

peace
Homeskooled :wink:


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## Kelson12

It just all sounds so cloudy and frustrating. I think I'm freaking myself out by coming on this site honestly. My symptoms have gotten so bad and my mind is so scared and freaked out. I feel like I have something that no one will ever figure out and that I will have to deal with my whole entire life. My life is right here in front of my eyes and I don't know how to grab it and live it and enjoy it.

Homeskooled and others. How do I even know what approach to take? It all just sounds so muddy. I just don't know.

Kelson


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## widescreened

yes,free will exsists,and should be a launchingpad to take responsibility,no matter how difficult.forget how the next door neighbour is doing with his life,opperate within your own personal framework.it makes sence with or without dp/dr.


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## Martinelv

And there's me just having drunk a litre of pure tomato juice. Sigh.


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## ashley50

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