# question #1



## Guest (Apr 7, 2005)

hello everybody! I want to make this question and everyone to answer honestly : Do you believe that someday you'll exit dp-dr?

Just statistic!!!


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## enigma (Feb 18, 2005)

No.

How do I know I'm right?

Because I'm never wrong when I'd _like_ to be.

e


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2005)

i dont really care anymore


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## Kelson12 (Aug 10, 2004)

^^^then stop posting, cause you're pissing alot of people off.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2005)

kelson12 said:


> ^^^then stop posting, cause you're pissing alot of people off.


you and soulbro dont count as "alot of people" now take the time to go fuck yourself you pu$$


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2005)

i know i will get past this for sure....I have my lord on my side...I love you Jesus!!


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## AHuseman (Jan 29, 2005)

I've been praying to God I will get outta this also. Although I have doubt 'cause mine is 24/7.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2005)

AHuseman said:


> I've been praying to God I will get outta this also. Although I have doubt 'cause mine is 24/7.


dont have doubt and dont think about the past and you will get through it, keep pushing on


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2005)

I am also a person that HAD it 24/7...now i still have it, but it is very mild compared to what it was. Keep praying man, He will take it all away I promise.


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## AHuseman (Jan 29, 2005)

Did you have derealization 24/7 before you took benzos Robbie?


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

yes, when i decide to give this game up.

let me play just a little longer little chessmen

will i ever surrender? who knows. I think I will though. I hope.


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

> hello everybody! I want to make this question and everyone to answer honestly : Do you believe that someday you'll exit dp-dr?


If I don't turn psychotic, then yes.

I see no reason why it shouldn't go away. My brain's certainly capable of not being DPd as I've had periods where it's gone away completely.

Even if I have to work for a long time to finance some very expensive therapy then that is what I'll do

Bear in mind, all you pessimists, that more research on and understanding of DP is coming together now than at any time in the recent past. I'm not saying we're gonna have "miracle cures", but I'm sure there's gonna be better methods of treatment and alleviation of symptoms.



> ^^^then stop posting, cause you're pissing alot of people off.


Amen to that.

Speaking of which...



> Keep praying man, He will take it all away I promise.


I'm not personally attacking your religious values Robbie, but I really do think this is bad advice for anyone suffering from DP/DR.

Why? Because it's may well potentially give people "false hope", encouraging them to pray for relief rather than to take *actual* and *practical* steps to change things in the real world.

And, besides, all this begs the obvious question: if God can cure this, if he really can ease the suffering of a number of people who aren't in any sense "bad" guys and gals, why doesn't he?



> dont have doubt and dont think about the past and you will get through it, keep pushing on


This is sound advice.

To anyone else out there who's thinking "I have no chance, I'll have it forever", you *must* keep trying to fight it whatever happens. I can't promise it will go away, no one can, but if you fight it rather than give in you're much more likely to be able to cope better and enjoy life, regardless of everything else.


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

There's no doubt it is entirely possible, as there is living proof. Unfortunately everybody is so unique that it is not so easy as to pass on 'the cure'.
There are a lot of people on the board who have great advice, use the advice that feels right for you.


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## AHuseman (Jan 29, 2005)

> I'm not personally attacking your religious values Robbie, but I really do think this is bad advice for anyone suffering from DP/DR.
> 
> Why? Because it's may well potentially give people "false hope", encouraging them to pray for relief rather than to take actual and practical steps to change things in the real world.
> 
> And, besides, all this begs the obvious question: if God can cure this, if he really can ease the suffering of a number of people who aren't in any sense "bad" guys and gals, why doesn't he?


Although I'm not Robbie, how would you know if thats false hope and bad advice for us? And you ask why doesn't God cure this if he can ease suffering? Maybe he lets it happen to some of us who know him for a reason (maybe to make us stronger or to test our faith), and yet if a person doesn't know God, anything can happen to them; good or bad as well. And he doesn't "cure" anything overnight. Ohh and another thing...I've read lots of recovery stories (not from this site, but from other places and so on) and the majority of people (probably 80 or 90%) mention something about God or finding God etc. Like this one guy, he was like 18 or 19 I read about on some other board, had chronic DP/DR 24/7 for about almost 2 years, he would make positive posts about God when he had DP. He came back to that board awhile back to tell everybody he had recovered (seem pretty quick?). But at the same time I'm not saying God is the only cure. And I also notice that probably 90% of people on this board don't believe in God or aren't close to God. And we don't hear much recovery stories here. It may be or true, or maybe not.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2005)

robbie said:


> i know i will get past this for sure....I have my lord on my side...I love you Jesus!!


I find it sad you won't give yourself any credit when this happens, just some imaginary friend. :wink:

You deserve all the praise for this.


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

> Although I'm not Robbie, how would you know if thats false hope and bad advice for us?


It depends what you mean by a "false hope", I suppose.

If people start to think that God will just make it "go away" then they're clearly wrong; even if you accept that He exists it's obvious He doesn't just make it "disappear", not in a short length of time anyway.

If, on the other hand, we take it to mean that it's something that makes you "feel good" - almost like a mental "crutch" to fall back on - then it may have some value.

All I am saying is that I think it's bad advice to encourage prayer as opposed to more down-to-earth measures as a means to recovery. It may make you "feel nice inside" for a while, but it ain't gonna end your symptoms - that takes *actual* and *practical* steps.



> And you ask why doesn't God cure this if he can ease suffering? Maybe he lets it happen to some of us who know him for a reason (maybe to make us stronger or to test our faith)


The implication behind this, of course, is that it is in God's power to inflict "bad" things - mental illness being but one example - and that He chooses to do so because that makes the end result somewhat "better", in His eyes.

Your contention that it's to make us "stronger" _might_ stand up to reason were it not the case that He uses this supposed "power" to inflict irreversible harm; or at least fails to use his power to prevent it.

Does terminal cancer make people "stronger"? No.

Motor neurone disease? Don't count on it.

Fatal heart attacks? Not really.

This being the case, it seems equally unlikely that He inflicts or does not prevent the onset and continual of mental health symptoms.


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## AHuseman (Jan 29, 2005)

> It depends what you mean by a "false hope"


You mentioned it.



> If people start to think that God will just make it "go away" then they're clearly wrong; even if you accept that He exists it's obvious He doesn't just make it "disappear", not in a short length of time anyway.


I do agree to that in some aspect. Recovery is not an overnight thing like you say in referring to God "just making it go away". He can do anything, but it doesn't mean he will. Relating to him and recovery, it's alot more than just "accepting he exists". In your quote, you left out where I said "he doesn't cure anything overnight." Thats what I meant when you said about him not "just making it go away". And the connection I made with God and peoples recovery stories I read was my own theory, (or common sense) which I believe is true so you and whoever else could have the same view on it. (But I guess not)



> The implication behind this, of course, is that it is in God's power to inflict "bad" things - mental illness being but one example - and that He chooses to do so because that makes the end result somewhat "better", in His eyes.
> 
> Your contention that it's to make us "stronger" might stand up to reason were it not the case that He uses this supposed "power" to inflict irreversible harm; or at least fails to use his power to prevent it.





> Does terminal cancer make people "stronger"? No.
> 
> Motor neurone disease? Don't count on it.
> 
> Fatal heart attacks? Not really.


Yes I opologize, I mean't certain bad things that can make us stronger that are not irreverisble or that have a chance of being or becoming irreverisible. He doesn't choose to let bad things happen, he allows them to. It's all for a good reason, whether if it's to make you stronger (being the outcome if the problem is reversible). Or if the problem may not be irreversible like your example of cancer, then that problem is among other further reasons that I can't answer. But in the end, it's for a good reason.

Now I'm not no expert priest or nothin', but I know the basics. If that doesn't atleast partially answer your questions, (which of course you still probably don't believe, understand etc.) then walk up in a church and ask them or somethin' rather than telling us what advice is right and wrong in relation to God.

BTW, 
Lesson Learned: When preaching to skeptics you must use precise details and accuracy.

Im out. If theres another debate, I'll be back later.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2005)

Yes you will all get rid of this dp/dr as soon as you stop paying attention to the mind games & force yourself to concentrate on something else. slowly but surely it will happen. Don't ever give up.


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

> Thats what I meant when you said about him not "just making it go away". And the connection I made with God and peoples recovery stories I read was my own theory, (or common sense) which I believe is true so you and whoever else could have the same view on it. (But I guess not)


The fact remains that belief in God - in the sense that God will aid you directly - *is* a false hope. The sum total of evidence for prayer actually helping in recovery is next to zero.

The only use, as far as I'm concerned, in believing in God is in the sense that it may _indirectly_ help you get better by, for example, giving you more perseverance, more belief, more will to succeed and so on.

That's where I stand.



> Or if the problem may not be irreversible like your example of cancer, then that problem is among other further reasons that I can't answer. But in the end, it's for a good reason.


You know as well as I do that that argument does not stand up to reason.

Do you honestly think that God allows people, for instance, to die of bone cancer - one of the most slow and agonizing deaths possible - for a "good reason"?

To give an extreme example, it follows from your argument that God allowed for the Asian tsunami - an event causing the death of thousands and the intolerable suffering of a great many more - to occur for a "good reason" as well.

If such suffering and death is, as I'm sure your God would say, an intrinsically "bad" thing, how on (or in this case "off") earth can it be for a "good reason"?



> Now I'm not no expert priest or nothin', but I know the basics. If that doesn't atleast partially answer your questions, (which of course you still probably don't believe, understand etc.) then walk up in a church and ask them or somethin' rather than telling us what advice is right and wrong in relation to God.
> 
> BTW,
> Lesson Learned: When preaching to skeptics you must use precise details and accuracy.


Please don't patronize me. It doesn't help anyone.

I am *not* telling you what is "right" or "wrong" in relation to God. I am telling you what is rationally and logically coherent because I am trying to prove, with reasonable argument, that God either cannot or will not cure us of our mental health problems; though for some prayer may have its uses.

I am trying to argue this because, being a nice guy, I actually want people here to get better and I really don't like to see people going down "blind alleys" in trying to help themselves.

If you want to argue against me in whatever way you wish then be free to do so. But don't tell me to "go to a church and ask a priest". You know as well as I that that wouldn't help what I'm trying to do.


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## maria (Oct 28, 2004)

I'm not sure. While this was caused by psychological issues, I'm positive now I'm here it's unfortunately completely physiological, which gives me less ways to recover. But I live in hope.


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## agentcooper (Mar 10, 2005)

it goes away for many, many people...get as much help as you can, and keep hoping you are one of those lucky people.


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## AHuseman (Jan 29, 2005)

> Do you honestly think that God allows people, for instance, to die of bone cancer - one of the most slow and agonizing deaths possible - for a "good reason"?


A reason. Meaning the plan God has for that person.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2005)

God isn't responsible for human suffering. To read a good article on this, check out this link.

http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/P ... ering.html

I don't think there is anything wrong with people believing that God can cure them. Obviously they wouldn't give a testimony about being better if they didn't believe it and they hadn't experienced some kind of improvement while having this belief. There is a great possibility that it could all be psychological. If that's the case then who cares as long as it works!



> The fact remains that belief in God - in the sense that God will aid you directly - is a false hope. The sum total of evidence for prayer actually helping in recovery is next to zero.


That is only your opinion and nothing else. I would like to see your source for prayer not helping in recovery. Are we referring to just DP and anxiety? From what I read on this website, prayer isn't talked about too much. I don't even know if a poll has been taken on prayer. I'll have to check. It really doesn't seem like you are getting your evidence from this board, so where are you getting it?



> I am not telling you what is "right" or "wrong" in relation to God. I am telling you what is rationally and logically coherent because I am trying to prove, with reasonable argument, that God either cannot or will not cure us of our mental health problems; though for some prayer may have its uses.


Why does everything have to be logical? Can you accept that there may be some things you cannot understand? Can you accept that logic doesn't apply to everything? Do you believe logic created the sun and the stars??You cannot prove anything in regard to peoples experiences with God and healing. The only thing you can do is choose whether or not you believe them or not and it sounds like you have done the latter.



> I am trying to argue this because, being a nice guy, I actually want people here to get better and I really don't like to see people going down "blind alleys" in trying to help themselves.


Tell me the way to getting better then. Is it medication, is it therapy? The last time I checked, medication causes much harm to the body and brain and therapy costs alot of money. The belief in God is free so I see no harm in it. Let people make their own choices. If they want to believe in God to get them through it, great. If they want to take 50 mgs of paxil a day, great. If they want to believe in the 8 legged elephant god to get through it, great! We are all grown adults here and we are all smart enough to make our own decisions when it comes to recovery.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2005)

whoooooo! Someone is filled with the Holy Spirit for sure! Praise God! Neal, and Ahuseman, dont worry about a thing, as I know my Lord and God will heal you guys for having faith and stepping out on it!

-Robbie


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2005)

robbie said:


> whoooooo! Someone is filled with the Holy Spirit for sure! Praise God! Neal, and Ahuseman, dont worry about a thing, as I know my Lord and God will heal you guys for having faith and stepping out on it!
> 
> -Robbie


Mate, I'm not being funny, but I don't come on here to have religion forced on my everytime I read one of your posts.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2005)

I do not force anything to you my friend. I am not rude at all when I speak of my God. I do not convict your spirit, yet the Holy Spirit of God does.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2005)

robbie said:


> I do not force anything to you my friend. I am not rude at all when I speak of my God. I do not convict your spirit, yet the Holy Spirit of God does.


I didn't say you were rude; I've never found you rude at all, Robbie.

But you illustrate my point perfectly there. If you love God and Jesus, fair play to you. But this is a DP/DR board. I am having enough problems with my thoughts on religion/death/etc, as well as other things going on in my life. The DP/DR is just a part of it, and I come on here soley to look for DP/DR and anxiety related issues.

I hope you understand.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2005)

Hey man, I do understand mate. It is just that I have been stuck in my house for almost a year. Literally I did not step out of my house for 57 days, not even out the front door because of this illness. I could not walk at all to use the restroom cause my heart would race so hard and I would feel so dizzy. I was thinking I was going to die many many times man. Too many to count. I thought I would die every second for about 6 months straight. I punched holes in my walls in my flat. I yelled at my wife and hurt her in tremendous ways. Then one night I told God that I give up and that I dont want to fight this anymore and for him to please fight it for me or at least help me.

And guess what I just got back from doing? I was just slam dunking a basketball at a playground at a school by myself! This is the same guy that could not pee without holding on to things or had to be on my knees! Now I am running around playing sports! I went to the er 18 times in the last year with heart tests and CT scans on my brain due to the dr/dp. I am healed by the Lord and my testimony will not be shut down. He has done too much for me to keep quiet about it. Like I have told a couple of people...."there is something about Jesus Christ".....there is just something about Jesus that gets under peoples skin, and I know the real reason...

If i were to talk about buddah or the koran or something "intellectual", i would be respected and never told anything in a rebut to what i say of Jesus....i would be considered "new age" and "cool" and possibly invited to starbucks to have coffee and talk "philosophy"


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## AHuseman (Jan 29, 2005)

Great post man! ^^^


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2005)

robbie said:


> If i were to talk about buddah or the koran or something "intellectual", i would be respected and never told anything in a rebut to what i say of Jesus....i would be considered "new age" and "cool" and possibly invited to starbucks to have coffee and talk "philosophy"


I actually agree with you 110% there.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2005)




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## Guest (Apr 8, 2005)

lol


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

*Ahumesman*



> A reason. Meaning the plan God has for that person.


Yes, but this runs contrary to what this Christian conception of God *actually* is.

It seems to me totally implausible that a God who is simulataneously omnipotent, omniscient and utterly benevolent - as the Christians say their God is - would allow such unecessary suffering to occur, seeing as, by his own text, such things are deemed "bad".

This leaves you to admit one of two things: Either God is not powerful enough to prevent suffering, or that He simply doesn't want to - this latter suggestion making him condone events - such as the Asian tsunami - which are, in his own terms, *"bad".*

Either of these two possbilities is inconsistent with the Christian conception of God.

Your contention that God allowes AIDS to ravage the planet for "a reason" seems like an utter cop-out.

*Pure Narcotic*

From your article:



> Although there are many things that could be said, I do not think it is necessary for us to get involved in long and protracted discussions about the things that we experience as far as pain and suffering go as a result of our own deliberate sin. In short, if you jump off a bridge you should not get too upset with God when you hit the bottom


But what about what drove you to jump off that bridge in the first place?



> And so if we persist in taking chemicals into our body, in doing things that are contradictory to what God has told us to do, we can expect to suffer. I do not believe that it is inconsistent with the nature of God for a man to expect to suffer when he tampers with nature or when he fails to heed the situations that occur when our natural situation is abused.


The guy has a point here, but still this is only true in the case of _some _ examples of suffering - not all, by any stretch; for not all are self-inflicted.



> Man's persistence in polluting the water, for example, has caused disease and other problems which in some cases have been tragic. Man's unwise use of the land has caused floods and tornadoes that have brought great tragedy and great suffering upon man. When we violate the natural environment that God has given us, we cannot expect God to allow the consequences of this violation to occur. We know that emphysema and some of the other diseases that we have come in contact with have been, at least in some cases, caused by our violation of the air that God has given us originally in a state that did not cause these things. We have evidence that even leukemia may be related to man's indiscriminate use of nuclear energy.


This point is laughable.

As if disease only exists as a result of us "poisining God's planet". He'll have to do better than that.



> Another aspect of the problem of suffering is seen when we fail to heed the warnings of nature and thus reap the consequences. I think there are many classic illustrations of this. In California, for example, there is an area near Los Angeles where the earth is under great stress, and where there are a tremendous number of cracks, or faults as they are called. Geologists have warned the builders in that area that this is a place where they need to be extremely careful not to build tall buildings and that they should not construct structures that are sensitive to earthquakes and to cracks and shifting of the earth. Yet at this time there is a building under construction to replace a hospital that was knocked down by an earthquake not too long ago. This building is suppose to be sixteen stories tall and has no earthquake provisions of any real consequence in it. It is being partially financed by the Federal Government, and is straddling the very fault that knocked down the hospital that it is replacing. Now I'd like you to think for a minute, who will get the blame when an earthquake rolls through that area, knocking down the brand new hospital and perhaps killing ten million people, including everybody in the hospital? Who is going to get the blame? Well, I will guarantee you that there will be those people who will say, "If there was a God that wouldn't have happened". And yet the warning is there. If you build your house in the mouth of a volcano, it does not seem to me that you have too much to complain about when it erupts. A surprising amount of the problems we have fall into these categories that we have briefly examined.


Again, this is not a point.

Was it the thousands of indonesians "fault" that they didn't move to a different continent before the earthquake struck? What about those in Turkey who experienced the Izmit earthquake a decade ago?

Evidently not. They had no idea that these events had to occur.

And besides the point, if God is all powerful and all-loving, why does he let earthquakes occur in the first place?



> First let us take a look at a few points that are related to this type of problem, at least in an indirect way. Let us see if we can make some sense of some of the things that you and I experience: some of the things that come our way in life that we sometimes find somewhat difficult to explain or somewhat difficult to rationalize or to work out in our own minds. There are some, for example, who suggest to us that pain is something that should not occur if there is a God. And yet, physical pain and other types of pain are absolutely necessary if we are to survive in a physical way. There was a story in Reader's Digest about a little boy in India who was born without the nerve endings of the extremities of his body connected to his brain. In simple terms, this child could not experience physical pain. Now you know, we might think that would be marvelous to never have a stubbed toe, a headache, a backache, or all the other aches and pains that bother all of us. But this is a very tragic, unpleasant story. This little boy was about 10 or 11 months old, just beginning to walk around hanging onto things, when his mother was kneading bread over on the counter and smelled the odor of burning human flesh. She turned and saw her little boy with his hands on the hot furnace in the center of the room, and the doctors were just barely able to save his hands by skin grafting. You see, that child could not know that the furnace was hot, and the natural reflex built into each of us was not operative in this child. Consequently he was not protected by experiencing normal pain. Any normal child would probably have never touched the thing, and if they had they would have jerked away immediately. They would have experienced pain. They would have screamed and would have gotten help immediately without a serious bum. But this child did not have that protection. A few months later the child came in one day and collapsed in the doorway of the hut, and when the mother picked him up she noticed his foot was badly cut and he had an obvious loss of blood. Once again his life was saved by transfusions but you see his body could not say to his brain, "You've been hurt! Get help! You need attention quickly." We need physical pain. The tragic end of the story came when the child was barely eight years old. He came in one day and laid down on the mat in the corner of the hut as is the custom in that country. The mother went over to check on him a few minutes later and found he was dead. An autopsy revealed he had died of a ruptured appendix. You see his body could not say to his brain, "You're sick. You need help. You're in trouble." Consequently, survival was not possible.


Again, laughable.

The author fails to draw the basic distinction between having the sense to _feel_ pain, and actually having to have excessive pain inflicted upon one. And he totally neglects instances such as those where one dies young (is that necessary to feel pain as a useful response?).



> I would like to suggest to you further that this same type of thing is true in the emotional sense. What kind of man would it be who could not experience guilt and sympathy and compassion and who could not relate to the needs of fellow human beings? We have had some famous people who were like this. They wear names like Hitler, Mussolini and Eichman--men who could watch innocent women and children by the tens of thousands walk to their death in the gas chamber and apparently not be moved. These men apparently were not able to feel sympathy or compassion or guilt in any way.


Yet again, he ignores the distinction between useful emotional pain - in the sense that we feel guilt or sorrow for doing "bad" - and unwaranted and unecessary pain as a result of mental illness.

It's perfectly possible to have a conscience, to know when you've done wrong and to feel sorrow when you do - and conversely to feel good when you _do_ "good" - and yet at the same time not to have to undergo emotional anguish for no reason as so many do.

And this all begs the question - if God was powerful enough to do so, why didn't he prevent the mass execution of Jews in the holocaust?



> In fact, is it not a marvelous thing that when those we love are no longer able to exist realistically in a physical way that they do not have to go on suffering. God has provided a means by which the spirit can be separated from the body and the physical pain that we endure now fades into insignificance. It is interesting to me that the apostles rarely used the term death to describe the end of life.


In that case, why *on earth* is the Church responsible for causing thousands of people to die in *utter agony* and with no dignity at the hands of irreversible and protracted illnesses, when the person themselves wants to be allowed to die? It's even the case that the Church has pushed for those relatives and friends who acceede to the sufferer's demands to be incarcerated for assisting their suicide.

But, hey, God ends our suffering and all that.



> I am sure that no preacher would want to bring that kind of pain and suffering into a man's life, but the fact of the matter is that sometimes it takes pain, sometimes it takes suffering, sometimes it takes a tragedy to make us realize that we need God. Pain humbles us.


Yet again, this argument simply does not apply when we take it into the context of the suffering and death of, say, thousands of children out in Africa. Their suffering is in now way "humbling" - I find such suggestions repulsive.



> But I think even far more fundamental and far more important than this is the fact that if Christians did not suffer, they would be totally and completely incapable of doing what they were put here to do. God intends for his followers to communicate with the world, to bring Jesus Christ into the lives of people. You cannot communicate with a man unless you are enduring or have endured some of the same things that he has endured. As a matter of fact, I believe that the bad experiences that you and I have to put up with and that we all undergo from time to time are actually talents. They are actually things that enable us to communicate with our fellow man and meet his needs. I hope you will pardon this very personal reference but I do not really know any other way to present what I am trying to say here than to show you in my own life what God has done and how things have worked to his glory.


*yawn*. See above.

This argument is outrageously context-specific, it only applies, once more, to "suffering" in the sense of tribulations that one endures in life. It goes no way to answering reasons for irreversible and chronic diseases or unnecessary death.

As for you own points:



> Why does everything have to be logical? Can you accept that there may be some things you cannot understand? Can you accept that logic doesn't apply to everything? Do you believe logic created the sun and the stars??You cannot prove anything in regard to peoples experiences with God and healing. The only thing you can do is choose whether or not you believe them or not and it sounds like you have done the latter.


I don't need to prove anything; the burden of proof is on you - as you are stating a positive.

I'm not saying that everything "_needs_" to be logical, but the fact remains that when we use logic to try and understand objective reality we get actual results which work in the real world.

This being the case, it's simply foolish to say "hey, I'm gonna guess this will work, because I just feel like it, and give it a go". It's a waste of time.



> Tell me the way to getting better then. Is it medication, is it therapy? The last time I checked, medication causes much harm to the body and brain and therapy costs alot of money. The belief in God is free so I see no harm in it. Let people make their own choices. If they want to believe in God to get them through it, great. If they want to take 50 mgs of paxil a day, great. If they want to believe in the 8 legged elephant god to get through it, great! We are all grown adults here and we are all smart enough to make our own decisions when it comes to recovery.


Certainly, by all means use prayer as a means to help your recovery if it works for you.

Just don't assume it's a substitute to other methods. Such things needn't be therapy, it could be something so simply as, say, doing some volunteer work. That will boost your confidence and make you feel better far more than just "praying" to get better.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Monkeydust, Mr Mole....inherit my mantle and surpass my achievements.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2005)

Martinelv said:


> ....
> and surpass my achievements.


Never! :lol:


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

:lol:

Incidently, love your quote/signature thing.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2005)

Martinelv said:


> :lol:
> 
> Incidently, love your quote/signature thing.


 :lol: Yeah I smiled when I saw it so thought I'd use it!


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2005)

Monkeydust, I believe I was reading one of your posts the other day and you stated that you do not believe in god. Therefore, if you do not believe in him then why are you making these long, drawn out, angst ridden posts that appear to be blaming god for human suffering? If you do not believe in him then you must hold the belief that human suffering is caused by humans or some other external force and not god. If there is no god then who else causes the suffering on this earth?



> Just don't assume it's a substitute to other methods. Such things needn't be therapy, it could be something so simply as, say, doing some volunteer work. That will boost your confidence and make you feel better far more than just "praying" to get better.


Nobody assumes anything here. Those who want to believe what they want to believe have every damn right to go that route.


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

> Monkeydust, I believe I was reading one of your posts the other day and you stated that you do not believe in god. Therefore, if you do not believe in him then why are you making these long, drawn out, angst ridden posts that appear to be blaming god for human suffering? If you do not believe in him then you must hold the belief that human suffering is caused by humans or some other external force and not god. If there is no god then who else causes the suffering on this earth?


That's not really what I was getting at.

I don't "blame God" for the problems on the earth at all, that's not what I'm trying to say.

What I'm saying is that the Christian conception of God is inconsistent with the actual reality of the world. In particular, I'm trying to show those that believe in God that he doesn't end suffering "just like that".

The reason I'm doing this is because I *genuinely do* want people here to get better - as I want to get better myself - and I *truly believe * that prayer isn't the answer.

If it helps you, Robbie, or anyone else, then fine. Most religious people will pray in a time of crisis or trouble, and that's to be expected.

But *please* don't offer prayer as practical advice. Many of the people here are in desperation at the severity of their symptoms, and are likely to try *anything* in order to gain quick relief.

I remember myself like this not long ago, and even *I* - an atheist almost with conviction almost as strong as Martin - was trying to "find God" again; I thought that was all that would help me.

Desperate minds consider desperate measures, but prayer - irrespective of how it helps believers along the way - is *not* the method to get out of deep neurosis. What works is practical measures focused on the "real world" rather than heaven above.

*That* is why I get so angry when people offer prayer as advice to sufferers, because I think it's quite possible that someone browsing these boards in search of real help might take them seriously, and substitute religion for hard work.



> Nobody assumes anything here. Those who want to believe what they want to believe have every damn right to go that route.


Of course they do, and I'm not arguing against that.

But the point is that those who _are_ religious on this board, pray already. Those that aren't don't.

This being the case, can people _please_ stop saying "pray to the lord" when people ask what will help them. They're either preaching to the converted or inadvertantly trying to convert others; neither has a point on this board.

MonkeyD


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

If you take a step back, try and get some perspective on prayer - what people are doing is actually this: attempting to send their thoughts through their heads to a imaginary all-loving creator in the sky so that he might help them.

If it wasn't so tragic, it'd be funny. But it's not. I'm all for prayer if it gives comfort, but don't make it out to be a reality - which it isn't. What makes me angry is when someone 'miraculously' survives a car crash and says 'God was looking over me'. Yeah, right. Too busy saving you in your nice little car to save the billions dying of disease and starvation ?

:evil:


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