# Rising Dictatorship



## mind^partizan (Nov 11, 2006)

*VERY IMPORTANT. *

By signing and passing "Patriot Act" and later "Patriot Act II", G.W. Bush practically promoted himself from president to a DICTATOR. This act became law soon after 9/11. This act drastically erodes American and American immigrants rights and freedoms. This is just a conclusion, but you certainly have to take a look at it yourself. It is widely critisized by human rights activists, but the media did/does not expose it properly. For a purpose.

_I removed Alex Jones videos, because im not too sure about his intentions. I just know he wants to make money from this, considering whats in his website. So i decided to not post the links to his videos, which he tries to sell._

- *Noam Chomsky - Distorted Morality [Speech at Harvard University about America's war on terror.]* (55min)

According to himself, Noam Chomsky, does not want to persuade people to think in certain way, his goal is to encourage people think and _persuade themselves_.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

I believe it.

Incidently, the British media has stopped calling the Bush 'administration' a Neo-con one. They tend to call it the 'Christian Taliban.'

Some of the stuff the evangelical majority in America spouts is really quite scarey. And it's not just the common man or woman in the street who we might dismiss; it's people in power over there. I can't remember the guys name, or whether he is a Senator or whatever, but he was/is an elected government official and he said, and I kid you not, that; 'I admit that George Bush was not elected by the American people, but he was elected by god.'

:shock: :shock: :shock:


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## mind^partizan (Nov 11, 2006)

Hey Martinelv,

Thanks for responding. Your post is very important to me. I was beginning to feel even more detached when nobody cares or responds, considering this disorder too. I just want opinions.

AND in order for us to have an effective discussion, we need to forget what passports we have. Lets consider that first, we are all citizens of the world, and push all that nationalism aside. My opinion doesnt represent nor west , nor east , im TRYING to be in the middle, although its not easy.

We can see that nationalism brings so much pain to the the people and people are clearly manipulated by their political leaders. Wherever you look, England, Germany, Russia, China, everywhere... Everybody is ready to get into a fight defending what? A flag? Its silly. Lets grow to another level and leave the mentality of our ancestors to them. We have to learn something. Because otherwise, the blood poured, pain suffered, will be meaningless.

There is no better race or worse race. Every human tends to sin. The idea of America is very nice. The constitution is beautiful. BUT...evil always plants its seeds and here we go. America in 20th and 21st century (im considering federal level, the ELITE). How many wars were fought? How many of them on actual defence in American continent? What does it suggest?

Ok. Enough for now. I was just going around so to give an intro of what we need to talk about.

And Martinelv, yea i`ve heard such things too, its crazy.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Mind^P,
Though we've had our disagreements, I wanted to give a few links to why we need a greater understanding of violence that is truly escalating in the world. I have a link to a billion reasons that would fill the bandwidth of Rev's site, so I won't do that.

Chart of world conflicts:









http://www.t21.ca/wars/index.htm

There is also a great site with any statistic you would care to see. Countries with the most violence, richest, poorest, etc., etc. Name something it's there.

*Countries and World Rankings: Statistics*
http://www.aneki.com/index.html

Here are some general ideas of what is happening worldwide. People are indeed violent, and as the world gets smaller, we compete for scarcity of resources. There is also a common trend of xenophobia. It exists and always has as a matter of survival -- protection of own's own "tribe" however that is defined.

In brief, as this discussion is a library full of info.

And bottom line, my unhappiness with the world is that we are not good, kind, equal. I am not an idealist. I wish I were, but I'm not. There are some good people and some bad. We have a tendency to fight for our own individual survival, in a primitive way and in a modern way.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

World Global Trends
Analysing Conflicts

*Motivation [Competition for resources]
*

*Conflict is inherent to the human condition and can be a powerful catalyst for change and progress. Violent conflict, however, is fundamentally destructive in nature even when it changes the status quo for the better.*

Both individuals and leaders of collectivities always have choices about the courses of action they undertake, and the decision to engage in conflict (of which violent conflict is a small sub-set) is taken on the grounds that given the available strategic options in relation to goals and resources the conflict/violent conflict option is the perceived best means. [ Policy Implications ? ] In all societies there are groups with grievances, real or imagined, willing to resort to violence in the pursuit of their objectives.

*Violent conflict has diverse roots, including competition over resources, territory, political control or social status. And increasingly it is taking place within, rather than between, states.*

Wars have become more economic in motive and strategy as ideology and nationalism have diminished [ Policy Implications ? ].

*State weakness is a necessary precondition for violent ethnic conflict to erupt.*

By itself, ethnicity is not a cause of violent conflict. Most ethnic groups, most of the time, pursue their interests peacefully through established political channels [ Policy Implications ? ] . But when linked with acute social uncertainty and, indeed, fear of what the future might bring, ethnicity emerges as one of the major fault lines along which societies fracture. Ethnic conflict is caused by the "fear of the future, lived through the past." Fear of the future can take many forms : fear assimilation into a dominant culture, fear for their physical safety and survival.. When such fears of physical insecurity emerge, violence can and often does erupt... [ Policy Implications ? ]

*Human behavior*

20 years ago researchers learned that one aspect of this shared behavior is the proclivity of adult male chimps to attack, maim and kill other adult male chimpanzees whom they discover near their territory. Like gangsters during Prohibition or bounty hunters in the Wild West, male chimpanzees will organize raiding parties to seek out isolated members of other chimpanzee bands and then move in for the kill. In ways that eerily suggest human behavior, life for male chimpanzees is a continual jockeying for status and power(...) Aggressive genetic strategies acquired over millions of years are slow to fade away.

The real "causal" question is not why so many young males act so violently. The real causal question is how so many cultures manage through initiation, intimidation, sublimation, bribery, education, work, and superstition to stop them and divert their energy elsewhere. [ Policy Implications ? ]

*Treating violence as normal, and not as a disease, might in fact help us, paradoxically, to control it better in the end."*
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D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Interesting stats on a few topics. Literally you can find anything on that aneki sp? site.
Military expenditures is pretty amazing.

*Highest Christian Populations*

1	United States	189,983,000
2	Brazil	170,405,000
3	Mexico	96,614,000
4	China	86,801,000
5	Philipines	72,225,000
6	Germany	60,712,000
7	Nigeria	54,012,000
8	Italy	47,704,000
9	France	45,505,000
10	Congo, Democratic Republic of	42,283,000

*Highest Muslim Populations*

1	Indonesia	182,570,000
2	Pakistan	134,480,000
3	India	121,000,000
4	Bangladesh	114,080,000
5	Turkey	65,510,000
6	Iran	62,430,000
7	Egypt	58,630,000
8	Nigeria	53,000,000
9	Algeria	30,530,000
10	Morocco	28,780,000

*Highest Military Expenditures % of GDP*
1	Korea, North	22.90
2	Jordan	20.20
3	Eritrea	11.80
4	Oman	11.40
5	Saudi Arabia	10.00
6	Israel	8.70
7	Maldives	8.60
8	Yemen	7.90
9	Bahrain	7.50
10	Armenia	6.50
11	Burundi	6.00
12	Brunei	5.90
13	Kuwait	5.80
14	Turkey	5.30
15	Ethiopia	5.20
16	Morocco	4.80
17	Djibouti	4.40
18	Greece	4.30
19	Chile	4.00
20	Tajikistan	3.90


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Again, one can't understand the present without understanding the past.

Somehow, the word neoconservative has lost its original meaning. It is purely perjorative and certainly is a catch phrase for the G.W. Bush administration.

I hate G.W. Bush. W/out his messy involvement in Iraq. His stupid ass excuses for going there, we may not be having this conversation. G.W. Bush is the worst President we've ever had. Hopefully there will be somebody better coming up, hope it isn't Hillary Clinton for the Love of God.

How does any country deal with both domestic affairs and global conflict? Tell me of any country that has the perfect answer. Let's build the world around that model.

That model is nowhere to be found as far as I can tell:

Neoconservative is an old, old term. As old as I am 8) .... errr, I'm only kidding. I am much younger than the term. And it has been twisted around so much it almost has no meaning anymore. But of course it is ultimately based in the belief that spreading democracy is the way to solve anarcy in the world. You can subscribe to that or not. Personally I don't think there is any ONE solution to ANYTHING.

"neocons" -- original definition, socialists/leftists who moved to the right.
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From Wikipedia: I can't get a more succinct review save from there.
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"New" conservatives initially approached this view from the political left, especially in response to key developments in modern American history.

*The forerunners of neoconservativism were generally liberals or socialists who strongly supported World War II, and who were influenced by the Depression-era ideas of former New Dealers, trade unionists, and Trotskyists, particularly those who followed the political ideas of Max Shachtman. A number of future neoconservatives such as Jeane Kirkpatrick were Shachtmanites in their youth; some were later involved with Social Democrats USA.*

Some of the mid-20th Century New York Intellectuals were forebears of neoconservatism. The most notable was literary critic Lionel Trilling, who wrote, "In the United States at this time liberalism is not only the dominant but even the sole intellectual tradition." It was this liberal "vital center," a term coined by the historian and liberal theorist Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr., that the neoconservatives would see as threatened by New Left extremism.

*But the majority of "vital center" liberals remained affiliated with the Democratic Party, retained left-of-center viewpoints, and opposed Republican politicians such as Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan who first attracted neoconservative support.

Initially, the neoconservatives were less concerned with foreign policy than with domestic policy.* Irving Kristol's journal, The Public Interest, focused on ways that government planning in the liberal state had produced unintended and harmful consequences. Norman Podhoretz's magazine, Commentary formerly a journal of the liberal left, had more of a cultural focus, criticizing excesses of the movements for black equality and women's rights and the academic left.

*Throughout the 1950s and early 1960s the early neoconservatives had been anti-Communist socialists or liberals strongly supportive of the American Civil Rights Movement, integration, and Martin Luther King.*

*Opposition to D?tente with the Soviet Union and the views of the anti-Soviet and anti-capitalist New Left, which emerged in response to the Soviet Union's break with Stalinism in the 1950s, was one factor that would cause the Neoconservatives to split with the "liberal consensus" of the early postwar years.*

Shalom,
Oh, neocon is used as a pejorative anti-semitic slur. And yes, the US is hated because we support Israel. And of course, as we all know, the Jews are the cause of everything bad that has ever happened in history. :roll:

And no, I'm not Jewish.
But Shalom anyway.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Right now I don't have time, or am awake enough to watch a nearly 3 hour film. However, the initial opening looks to me, don't yell at me, at the type of propaganda that Michael Moore knows how to edit together.

The Patriot Act was in response to 9/11. I don't know enough about it, but personally, and many would disagree with me, it doesn't infringe on everyone's right and is not defining us as dictators. It should never have been called "The Patriot Act".

"Roe vs. Wade" has been debated as not a solid legal supreme court decision. Something the Federal government shouldn't be involved in. Again, Bush is an idiot. Everyone is basing everything the US has become on a particular idiot.

If I can bear it, I will try to watch that video. I can't see that Martin could have seen it, as I can't see he has 2.5 hours to watch the thing either.

As I said, the opening is crazy. It includes the editing of mass graves into the image on American currency that is supposed to prove the US is run by the Masons or something. OMG.

In terms of my civil liberties. I do travel. Personally, I am glad that I am forced to go through security to see if I'm carrying a bomb onto a plane. It's sad to see the world has come to that.

We don't know how to deal well with terrorism. It is new here in the US. It is NOT new in other countries. Again, the IRA is a perfect example.

I'd rather live here than under a tribal dictator in Africa who is about to lop my head off if I cough the wrong way. I'm glad I am not a woman in many African nations, etc., etc. I'm glad I don't live in North Korea.

We were taken off guard, for the first time, by a serious terrorist attack on US soil. We haven't figured out how to react yet.

I don't think I can bear to watch that video as it already smacks of misinformation -- just from that montage at the beginning, and a misinterpretation of the concept of "New World Order."

I can't debate all of this on the internet. My God there it would be so much easier to talk about it.

Again, I'm so tired of conspiracy theories.

And again, I'm not an idealist. We very well may end up in a sci-fi version of Minority Report or Bladerunner or whatever. Wouldn't surprise me at all. But Orwell's book "1984" was about Communism in the Soviet Union. Everything is so mixed up here.

Yes, I blame it on George Bush being a lousy president. Mainly a stupid man, a man with concrete thinking, who can't even speak articulately. Someone once told me (another conspiracy theorist) that Bush PURPOSELY talks like an idiot to "connect with the common people."

OMG.

Again, I have to go on my own instincts. 
We don't have a dictatorship here. We have a lousy president.


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2007)

WOW, You are painstakingly meticulous with your posts aren't you.
Graphs, statistics, links, very impressive.

Gold star!

G.


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## mind^partizan (Nov 11, 2006)

Dreamer, thanks for appearing. I havent read all of it yet, but i WILL.

I would like to disagree with you about Bush. He might seem just a silly cowboy from Texas, thats how he wants to be looked at, and there is the trick that is planned carefully. However, how do you think it would be possible for such person become a president? I honestly believe he is put there. I dont have any proof, but i also think that American presidents are not elected by citizens. Again, i dont have any proof. Its just what i think. I think this way, because in America, there is huge concentrated capital, which is so powerful and , logically, would never allow anyone to go into their way. Yes, they buy political decisions. Wars in Middle East are bought political decisions. Dick Cheney is connected with oil industry, G.W. Bush or his father were/are too. So, military and oil industries are driving the US foreign politics. Because just imagine how profitable the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are for these industries? Also, contsruction industry is a big one. Thousands of contractors are making money there, buy rebuilding Iraq. Certain people are making a lot of money there, of course general public is paying for it. I just think it would be naive to believe that Bush would be able to become the most powerful man on Earth, without having to play the scenario that was given to him, he is just playing it out. Huge affairs are going at this level.


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## mind^partizan (Nov 11, 2006)

Dreamer, the beginning of that video i dont like too. Although , i suggest dont conclude too much from that. Just look through when u have time. Look at the second link then, if you wish, its actually more interesting... It wont hurt. Why wouldnt you bear to watch it?

This is an American well-known journalist who makes it, he has a live radio show based in Austin, Texas, he has connections with many American and foreign intellectuals. Look what he says and think how reasonable it is. You can ignore all the facts that he says, but there is simple logic...

Again, dont get bored, i need u here


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Dear MP,

I will TRY to sit through that video, though for me I can guarantee you it would be as painful as sitting through Al Gore's film, Michael Moore's films, etc.

There are many ill-informed people who speak from "positions of authority." I don't know enough about that reporter in the video, but there are Conservative pundits who've been around a long time such as Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, etc. that I'd like to sock in the head. Billy Graham, etc. And other idiots from the liberal side make EVERYONE puke, including liberals -- Jesse Jackson, and OMG Al Sharpton, both of whom get involved in foreign policy when they have no knowledge about it at all.

Also, re: backgrounds of individual political leaders can be from any "controversial" form of employment. They also say stupid things. I don't believe for a moment that Bush is NOT an idiot. That idea simply -- well I simply don't believe it -- we have to agree to disagree. Also, many higher up military officials completely disagree with him. Colin Powell thought he was an idiot and ran for the hills as fast as he could.

If you see everything as a conspiracy then where is the truth? ANY truth. What I would like to learn about, and know more about -- reason I love research and keep learning in my old age ... OMG I could be your mother, LOL. What I want y'all to tell me about is the corruption that exists in your own countries.

The US is NOT the only country that is screwed up by politicians who simply don't know what they're doing. Also corruption is rampant in the private sector as much as in government. Think of ENRON.

Also, re: oil. All the Middle Eastern nations are sitting on gold. They manipulate all of us with that fuel source -- every country in the world. THEY control oil resources. I believe it was Saddam who bit off his own nose when he ordered that oil wells? whatever they are were set on fire -- forget which war. THEY have control, we don't. Bush has benefited very little from this.

The Middle East sits on gold, yet in Iraq, as we found out too late has no infrastructure at all. Saddam spent money on 5 or 7 palaces for himself and any $ from resources he had never trickled down to his own people.

Democrats now have control over Congress. We will see what they can do with this mess. Bush has little knowledge of foreign policy and didn't listen (out of stupidity and a blind view of spreading democracy) to his many advisors about the fact that Saddam actually held the country together -- under a dictatorship.

We screwed up by thinking democracy would suddenly appear in a country already torn by civil strife -- religious competition between Sunni, Shiite and Kurd. Remember, Saddam commited genocide on the Kurds. Didn't like them so he gassed them.

What do you think of Tony Blair -- is he in on some conspiracy?

Plain and simple, Bush is an idiot. That was not a plan. That is who he is.

I could cite another radio personality, very bright, who could argue with your conspiracy theories better than I. He is a black libertarian, gasp, who believes in less government intervention. But that would go against the domestic policies of your own country and that of the Crown. Your country for instance imposes social policies that restrict your own freedoms of choice. Socialized medicine which I understand is horrible, as well as the Value Added Tax which has Canadians sneaking across to the US to buy commodities here.

Who's benefiting from that? No one gets a free lunch.

OK, done for a while, as this just makes me tired and I can't answer all of these questions -- I don't know enough! But I know enough -- and have lived long enough -- to find that conspiracy theories ultimately fall apart.

That is simply my POV. I hear about these things. It is not as though I am not aware of these things, but I don't trust that opening montage off the bat in that video. An impartial "journalist" wouldn't do that. HE has his own agenda. Why believe him anymore than any other source of media?

I would like to study the psychology of conspiracy theories. Haven't found a text on that, but will indeed look for some.

I have a POV based on a number of things. And I DO keep studying. This is why I look things up.

The irony is that North Korea spends the most on their military at the expense of their own population. Do you not find that terrifying?

Idiocy and corruption exists EVERYWHERE. Somalia and ... oh crap what country ... are fighting over religious issues as we speak.

I won't carry on. I'm not giving up on the discussion, but I simply don't believe a comment that says Bush is "putting on" this idiocy. He was always an idiot, LOL.

Our involvement in the Iraq war has INCREASED the price of oil here in the US. The Middle East uses their primary resource to manipulate all of us. Is that a conspiracy? No. Does it matter that Colin Powell was a military man, a career military man. He was disgusted with Bush.

No conspiracy. Poor choices. They have been made throughout history. Only today the implications are far worse in a world where many countries can blow each other up in a matter of minutes. We don't fight hand to hand (save in Iraq at the mo -- civilians are mixed with insurgents and terrorists), but we can destroy each other far easier with the technology that exists in many countries, not just our own.

Just my POV. And I guess I get frustrated, as I know you can't convince me anymore I can convince you. And there's nothing wrong with that.

OK, I have to stop rambling. I'll try to watch that video, but it will kill me, LOL. If all leaders are evil, then we must include EVERY leader in the world, and that would include Western leaders. All of them.

Peace,
D


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## mind^partizan (Nov 11, 2006)

Dreamer,

Your initial supposition about these videos is already leading you to not be as objective as you could be. I m suggesting you to not watch the first video, start with Noam Chomsky or the second one. But you have to try be patient with Chomsky, his speech is not that enthusiastic, but he is valued for something else. And I believe in him completely. He is the one i trust. If you deny his ideas, then im not able to prove you much. In this video Chomsky also mentions "Patriot Act", because of which I called this topic "Rising Dictatorship" and Alex Jones expanded on this more...

You mentioned other countries and the fact that everywhere there is corruption and so on. Here you go on the defense again for your country... I want to assure you that I know all the basics what other countries do and yes, N.Korea is hell on earth, its worse than under Stalin there... I focus about US mainly only because this country currently is seen as the biggest threat to world peace by many citizens in the world, along with N.Korea...i know it sounds weird but that is where US has come to be.

I was born in a part of Soviet Union, so I know that side too. But thats another story and there is no audience for that...

The idea that Bush is just silly is too good to be true. Its much worse than that. Nobody would ever come close to such power by being just silly. Nobody would ALLOW this to happen. This is like the most important position in the world, no dummies there. In the political elite, there is such strong "magnetic field" of powers that no independent mind would be able to enter this club. Because these people make major decisions, affecting corporations which own almost everything. Chomsky mentions how the gov. benefited the small percentage of the rich elite by going to war, but the ordinary taxpayers are paying for all the expenses. Again, my words are meaningless if you deny Chomsky, then im powerless. I just wanted to raise the awarness... If i would talk with a Chinese person, i would start going about China and get their opinion :lol: , thats just what im concerned about - the world.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

OK, I have to stop with this literally. It's an insane obsession and MP we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Firstly, Noam Chomsky was required reading at univesity. He is a very famous and controversial intellectual. He is actually a linguist -- I think it was Jane Goodall who named one of her chimps Nim Chimpsky ... or one of the great apes that was able to communicate with sign language. It was not an insult to Chomsky at all. He is a brilliant linguist and psychologist.

His politics again fall into the anti government category which is fine. He is a socialist sort of, I think, a libertarian, and I think an anarchist. I simply disagree with that POV. Some think he is a genius, others think he is not.

No one gets through uni however without reading Chomsky.

Also,
You misunderstand me when I say Bush is an idiot. I'm angry with him so I say that. What I've said before however is he is a man who is motivated by his own narrow world, and he is particularly stubborn in not listening to his constituents, or his advisors.

He is inflexible. He doesn't have the personality or articulateness (is that a word) of Clinton, Reagan, etc. who were able to keep us calm in times of crisis. He is weak in his knowledge of foreign policy, he isn't a good diplomat, etc.

But here's the thing -- who would have imagined that we would be hit with 9/11. I don't know how any other US President would have dealt with it. No idea. Since Bush believes in spreading democracy as have many Presidents before him have, he stuck to that route and indeed mislead many people into getting rid of Saddam for the wrong reasons.

We have been trying to off the guy for years. Assasination attempts, failed military actions, etc. Bush seized this opportunity, but he lied about what he was doing. You say that 9/11 was a conspiracy. I don't. And it is obvious we were completely blindsided by this. This and other terrorist acts had been planned for years.

Terrorists have also planned on destroying other symbols of Western Culture, such as Big Ben in England, the Eiffel Tower in France, etc.

I can't go on explaining this, if you don't believe me.

Also, I found on a child's school history site, that many of our Presidents are related. It is not uncommon for the children of politicians to go into politics.

*It is not unusual for the children of ANY professional or non-professional to go into the "family business". People who own general stores usually "keep it in the family." The sons of firefighters become firefighters. The children of doctors often become doctors. The children of attorneys often become attorneys. The children of construction workers also go into contracting/real estate. NONE of this is a conspiracy.

Children of actors/musicians frequently try their hands at acting. Think of the Barrymore family, the Sheen family, the Sutherlands, think of many musical groups. John Lennon's son went into music, etc., etc.*

Finally a list of Presidents related to other Presidents. This occurs in other countries. Think of the Crown. And think of Dictators who literally bring in their entire families into the fold without asking anyone's permission! Any vote, etc.[/b]

From Factmoster for Kids!

*George W. Bush (the 43rd president) is the son of George Bush (the 41st president).

John Quincy Adams (the 6th president) was the son of John Adams (the 2nd president).

Benjamin Harrison (the 23rd president) was the grandson of William Henry Harrison (the 9th president).

James Madison (the 4th president) and Zachary Taylor (the 12th president) were second cousins.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt (the 32nd president) was a fifth cousin of Theodore Roosevelt (the 26th president).

Genealogists have determined that FDR was distantly related to a total of 11 U.S. presidents, 5 by blood and 6 by marriage: John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Ulysses Grant, William Henry Harrison, Benjamin Harrison, James Madison, Theodore Roosevelt, William Taft, Zachary Taylor, Martin Van Buren, and George Washington.

Both of my parents were doctors. My mother INSISTED I become a doctor. She wanted me to take over her practice. The LAST thing I wanted as I was born a musical person.

It depends on a lot of things, but this is not at all uncomon in ANY field.

And it is NOT a conspiracy.

A MP, I do have to stop this.

We have to agree to disagree. I can't discuss something with someone who is a conspiracy theorist. We will never agree. And it isn't because I haven't thought about things, or read things. I have also traveled a lot to MANY other countries. As I said, I am across the border from Canada. It takes 20 minutes to get there. I have freakin' Canadian currency in my pocket all the time, LOL.

I do NOT believe everything our government says, but bottom line, you cannot convince me, EVER, that 9/11 was not perpetrated by some very clever Al'Qaeda members who are plotting to do other evil crap all over the world. Not just in the US. Canada can be equally at risk, but not as much as America is. Or Israel, or other Middle Eastern countries who are our allies, etc.

I have to stop the discussion as I feel I'm talking to the wind. No insult. We will never agree on this.

Peace,
D*


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## mind^partizan (Nov 11, 2006)

What is a conspiracy theory actually? Anything that is different to what the officials say? If yes, then the world is in trouble. What if they lie? People have to believe in it, otherwise they will be called conspiracists(which is getting worse and worse image, purposefully, and i believe the gov. would like to associate this term with 'terrorists' or 'dangerous' and start arresting people who are questioning stuff, like me right now - ISNT THAT DANGEROUS?), like you call me already? Think of what effects your attitude on people like me (interested in truth) can have. It might be much easier for the government to "remove" such people, with the help of those like you, because you wouldnt mind, if they would arrest me lets say... You think its an illusion or somth, just wait a little and you will see what your police does to people who want to protest in streets and stuff. Its already happening. America has the largest prisoner population in the world. How come? Its a police state.

The purpose of me starting this topic is to ask certain questions, that are unanswered by the government. These questions are simple. We must have answers, otherwise we disrespect those who suffered from 9/11 and afterwards. So, i raised a few simple, specific questions, which you didnt touch at all, you just started educating me about why do people believe in conspiracies, you even started a separate topic. All i want is answers. Please give them to me, and save me from this, because it even distracts me from daily things i have to do. Otherwise i will not leave this. You mostly go around, and then state something like:

"but bottom line, you cannot convince me, EVER, that 9/11 was not perpetrated by some very clever Al'Qaeda members "

How can you say that? I think you wouldnt even look at the proof which would tell something else than officlal explanation, only because that would go against your original view of the media and politics you have there. You cant even look at anything that states otherwise. You immediatelly label it a conspiracy. There are two examples from our conversation: you made a conclusion from the intro of one of my linked video, that "i can gurantee this will be painfuly boring and..." wrong in another words. Then, even when my raised questions werent answered, you were able to say that nothing can convince you otherwise about the 9/11. That proves to me that you dont even want to consider any other stance. Thats a problem. I think this kind of thinking is a perfect soil for the government to reach the complete power. Because in America they have the trust of people who refuse to question what they say. People are led to believe that America is the same as it used to be...

Im not trying to convince you. When i raised certain questions, they werent answered, therefore , i started talking about the suspicions that are described in these videos , which seem very logical to me and much more reasonable and detailed version of what happened at 9/11 and so on. We talked so much, but we still havent gotten clear on specific questions.

Tell me why How can you be convinced , first of all, with the official explanation? I know , its a massive idea at first, its big to perceive, because all this time, the media was saying something different and therefore you just deny it before even looking at the questions. But they didnt explain a lot of things, that must have been public knowledge, which isnt.

I wanted to have a break from this too. It occupies my thoughts too much.


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## mind^partizan (Nov 11, 2006)

My topic is dying :roll: Heeeeeelp :lol:

I guess i could have named the topic otherwise, bec it might look too radical for some.

But i honestly believe we are in a serious trouble. I think i did my job here. The links are here. Nobody can blame me of putting something misleading in here, because i put CHOMSKY! - global treasure. ( http://www.chomsky.info/ )

Take care peoplz


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2007)

Mind^Partizan. A bit off topic (or maybe not). What about the American Senate now having the Democrats as a majority (which Im really very glad about), who are finally able to put Sjors Boesjes (thats how we call himLOL) war actions to a halt?
I mean, Boesjes/Republicans power will subside and soon America will have elections and I am almost 100% sure it will be a democrat chosen for president. Even me here living in a country far away was so relieved to hear about the democrats majority. We in Europe, almost everyone hates Boesj and his administration and they put us in fear as well and it just has GOT to stop. Again, what relief, it is a GOOD start.

Dreamer, I had wanted to come back to your other posts, but couldnt keep up with them (and having had a really bad period of weeks here).
My apologies for that.

Martin. I have a great article for you here:



> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Atheists challenge the religious right By Jane Lampman, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
> Thu Jan 4, 3:00 AM ET
> ...


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## mind^partizan (Nov 11, 2006)

Yea, Bush doesnt have a good image across the world, to say it nicely. He is compared to Hitler in terms of how dangerous his administration is. He is hated everywhere, according to poles worldwide.

About the Democrats. Im trying to follow that too. But im not too optimistic. Keep in mind that in America, the political power is basically in the hands of multi-national corporations. Which essentially means: the rich get richer, the poor get poorer. Tell me isnt that true? What do we see happening in American social groups. The gap between the rich and poor is immense and spreading , because it is the logical outcome of corporations getting their way - the "right" laws, regulations and policies.

So i dont think the change of opposing parties could have an essential long term effect. I think that temporarily, Bush`s war strategy will be changed by Democrats, so to make an illusion that these are the "good" guys and the Republicans are the "bad" ones. Its a psychological manipulation, a startegy so to make people think "oh, we changed the gov. and now the "right ones" rule. Its all the same in my opinion. Reps and Dems come into power by replacing each other by capturing the moments to trick the society that they can make the right changes. Human memory is short these times. I dont believe that these parties could suddenly get a "Revelation" and become so much better than the opposition, although the message is that.

To say my point shorter, the corporations are the ones to blame, the political leaders are just the representatives of the corporate interest which seeks to encourage globalization and make everybody play their game. Its like a black hole which is threatening to destroy the environment and the free humanity.


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## walkingdead (Jan 28, 2006)

If you think we have a dictatorship now just wait until we have a democrap as president. I mean we already have thousands of men in debtors prisons(so called deadbeats-a term conned by the liberal left to defend unconstitutional imprisonment), we have millions of children being legally murdered every year by their mothers, and all we hear about is the 3000 men and women killed in Irac to defend our way of life. No people you haven't seen anything yet!!


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## mind^partizan (Nov 11, 2006)

Unfortunatelly not much hope can be seen into this. At least i dont see. Major changes to the good cant happen quickly. Things just can get much worse very quickly.

I wanted to say now, that thinking too much about global issues is even harmful to a person with mental issues. Because it is a war zone, with all the lies and evils. I can feel it myself. It doesnt help at all to feel more hopeful while seeing the destruction of the world. But what to do? Ignore? Thats not for me.

I also wanted to say, that this is not the best place to discuss this deeply. This forum is intended for people to help each other dealing with mental troubles. So...


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Yep, the Patriot Act was an incredibly bad idea. Not to mention I'm pretty sure they planned to put it in before 9/11 anyway, and 9/11 was the push they needed to get it through (hmmm, conspiracies anyone? ).

If you read about how it actually got passed, you'd be even more appalled. In a nutshell: Put as an amendment to another bill that went through congress early in the morning when no-one bothered to read it and instead just passed it without looking it over or discussing it in any way. You'd think something that big would have been discussed at length, probably even witht he public, but no...

John Titor may be proved right yet, hehe.


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## mind^partizan (Nov 11, 2006)

HERE WE GO!

CECIL knows what i was saying in my first post here. It is so serious.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Yeah, basically and in theory (not saying this is definately how it'll pan out, but it has the potential) the U.S. Government can now tighten its control over its citizens.

The first thing you are likely to see and that we have seen is the "thought police". You are no longer allowed to even be curious and study terrorism in America (There's even been a report of someone doing their PhD in Australia that got investigated :shock: ). You can't talk about bombs or bombings or hijacking because if you do, you run the risk of being arrested and questioned as a suspected Terrorist.

If you look like a muslim you are probably going to be discriminated against. If you look like a muslim you damn well better erase "bomb", "Plane" and "Terrorist" from your vocabulary.

But these concepts can be extended to the rest of the populace as well. How many of your civil liberties are you willing to give up in order to feel safe? Would you be happy if the Government was allowed to spy on you using satelites without any evidence or court orders to justify it? Would you feel safe if, on a whim, a squad of highly trained soldiers could break into your home, arrest you and your family and take anything they wanted from your house? How about if they could then put you in a secret prison and hold you indefinately without charging you?

Well, these things may happen yet. Already we are seeing people being held without charge in Guantanamo Bay. Although these were people associating with known terrorists I don't think it justifies completely bipassing a legal system AND the Genieva Convention.

But the Patriot Act allows them to do this and more "in the interest of national security". Well I've got news for you folks, if you want you nation to be secure, stop invading other countries. Stop making weapons and arming people with them. Stop pissing off the world. Hell, maybe focus on and address your own social problems instead of trying to divert attention from them by making war.

/rant.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2007)

MP and others. I had actually forgotten Boesj has the right to "veto' and he has used that right to now again go his own way with Iraq, despite democrats and even republicans, who had supported him before, being against his latest plans.

In the Netherlands, where I live, if the majority in the senate votes against a proposition by the parties that run the current government (we have a total of about 10 political parties in government and opposition), the proposition is off the table. And our prime-minister doesnt have 'veto' right. Sounds more democratic than the American system (actually the Netherlands is third on the list of most democratic countries in the world, preceded by Iceland and Norway).

And I just read that Boesj threatened another 'veto' on something (Medicare). This basically I think is kinda dangerous, and can lead to some sort of dictatorship. Noone and nothing can stop Boesj (or any other president for that matter) then. It can lead to misuse of power. Quite unsetling.

EDIT: Just read that the veto can be overridden by a 2/3 majority in the Congress.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

> The first thing you are likely to see and that we have seen is the "thought police". You are no longer allowed to even be curious and study terrorism in America (There's even been a report of someone doing their PhD in Australia that got investigated ). You can't talk about bombs or bombings or hijacking because if you do, you run the risk of being arrested and questioned as a suspected Terrorist.


 :?: This is a huge topic in political science at many U.S. universities. It's important to know about terrorism in order to deal with it. People get degrees in Poli Sci and foreign policy for this very reason. Where did you hear this?

And Wendy is right, *Congress can withhold the funds for sending more troops, but they have to come to an agreement and they haven't yet. This is both Republicans AND Democrats, Democrats themselves can't decide. We don't know what to do. We simply don't know.*

I have no clue what the solution to this war is, but in a sense it is as ridiculous as getting involved in Vietnam (yet it's different in many ways). When we finally pulled out of there we gave the country away to Communism again. North and South Vietnam, etc., etc.

I see how we look like idiots. We're trying to pull out with some vague hope that the Iraqi government will be able to take care of itself. Because there is so much civil disagreement there, this will fail.

And some Iraqis WANT us to stay out of sheer terror at civil war, while others want us out. So even the Iraqis aren't in agreement.

We will ultimately pull out and there will be a civil war there. No one looked far enough into the future. Bush gave a simpering apology about that the other night.

But yes, Congress can override Bush's plan, but not everyone is in agreement re: what to do. It isn't an easy decision for a billion reasons that affects the entire Middle East. We are in shit trouble.

All I'm saying is NOTHING IS SIMPLE. And both Democrats and Republicans initially voted to support the war. Being one or the other doesn't guarantee agreement on one position or another.

It's a twisted mess we're in. We don't know how to fix it.

D


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## mind^partizan (Nov 11, 2006)

There is no democracy in US. Who were the last two candidates to become president? Bush and Kerry, they are cousins and represent the same family clan of criminals. There WAS NO REAL ALTERNATIVE FOR AMERICANS TO VOTE FOR. Thats why only 60% voters voted. And slightly more than half were for Bush, which means only 30% of American voters supported Bush who now is commiting crimes against humanity because it is an illegal war.

Also, pay attention how various protesters and activists are treated in America. Massive amounts of police and military are making sure these social events look like an unorganized gatherings of youth, who dont have anything else to do. Many are arrested. Is that the "dreamland" AMerica? Wake up, generations change, not much is left of the formerly land of freedom. Many American soldiers are asking asylum in Canada, because they clearly know in what sh*t are they made to participate.

7/10 Iraqis want US out NOW. And i believe its false, its probably 9/10. US doesnt listen to Iraqis at all. They are keeping the world as fool, when trying to show that Iraq people want America there. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis are leaving Iraq as refugees. Others are hiding in their basements , being without food and probably crippled mentally for life. So nobody asks Iraqis anything. Basically America is raping Iraq. To be rightful , American future generations would have to pay massive reparations to Iraq and its people, which is according to Noam Chomsky.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Ah, mindpartizan, I've got to stop carrying on with this, but the things you say come from lack of knowledge. I could respond to so many things in your statement, and you didn't respond to the fact that MANY, MANY universities including on-line education, etc. teach policitcal science and foreign affairs at all levels. Understanding the Middle East and terrorism is huge in Public Policy; it is now in demand now -- we want young minds to find solutions. * Your statement is patently false. You didn't respond to that statement alone, that you are completely incorrect and merely spreading incorrect information.*

You also don't read the paper, or anything even online from BBC to the NYTimes etc. You don't read "Foreign Affairs", you don't read "Opinion Journal", etc., etc., ,etc. These papers are in conflict granted in their op-ed sections re: what to do, but they report what is going on in Iraq. Documentaries have already been produced about Iraqi reactions. We also have local attorneys here in the US who are representing Quantanimo Bay inmates -- whiich pisses some people off. I have no problem with it.

We have journalists in Iraq, some welcome, all in serious danger, yet they are there to report. Do you ever see them on TV in Baghdad? I'm stunned.

The Iraqis THEMSELVES elected an interim Primeminister to try to get the country together so that we can split. We don't like HIM, but he is the only person we trust -- the lesser of many bad evils.

We do have other political parties here as well, albeit small. I don't know enough about the political system, but again, you forget that we are a country made up of immigrants, recent immigrants who vote in a manner that reflects where they came from.

Current Primeminister info: Again, Wikipedia which is lousy but brief.... it's a huge article, you can find more on Google.










This is a picture of Maliki visiting the US.

Our military are also intimately involved in talking with local Iraqis, as is the media of MANY countries, not just our own. They put their lives in danger. Sad you know nothing of that.

*On June 13, 2006, U.S. President George W. Bush paid a visit to Baghdad to meet with Maliki and President of Iraq Jalal Talibani, as a token of support for the new government.* [12] On June 25, al-Maliki presented a national reconciliation plan to the Iraqi parliament. The peace plan sets out to remove powerful militias from the streets, open a dialogue with rebels, and review the status of purged members of the once-ruling Ba'ath party. Some viewed this as a bold step towards rebuilding Iraq. [13] By July 2006, when al-Maliki visited the United States, violence had continued and even escalated, leading many to conclude that the reconciliation plan was not working.

*On July 26, 2006, al-Maliki addressed a joint meeting of the U.S. Congress.[14] Several New York Democrats boycotted the speech after Al-Maliki condemned Israel's attack on Lebanon. Howard Dean, the DNC chairman, accused Al-Maliki of being an "anti-Semite" and said the United States shouldn't spend so much on Iraq and then hand it over to people like Maliki. [15]

On September 11, 2006, Al-Maliki made his first official visit to neighbouring Shi'a Iran, whose influence on Iraq is a matter of concern for Washington DC. He conspicuously chose Sunni Persian Gulf Arab states for his first foreign trip but his visit to powerful Iran will likely upset Sunnis. He discussed with Iranian officials, including president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the "principle of no interference in internal affairs" during his visit on September 11, 2006 and September 12, 2006, i.e. political and security issues.

 The announcement of his visit followed a dispute between the two countries in which Iranian border guards in the week from September 3, 2006 detained Iraqi guards after accusing them of crossing into Iran. Ibrahim Shaker, Iraqi defence ministry spokesman, told the Iraqi patrol, five soldiers, one officer and one translator, had simply been doing "their duty".[16] .... etc., etc., etc.

---------------------------
You also are unaware that political protester ARE young people, and the same is to be said in many countries. They have the time to be activists. I went to a very politically active University for my BA and Masters in the 1980s. Berkely is known for its dramatic protests. Anti Vietnam War protests occurred at many Universities across the US and contributed to the end of the Vietnam War.

----------------------------
I have sworn I will not get involved in this anymore about 80 times, but you post completely innacurate information.

DISCLAIMER: (that seems in vogue here these days, lol): I have no answer on what we are to do. We should never have gotten involved in this. As noted this is a disaster. Iraq and Iran have been at each other's throats for forever.

Also have you forgotten that NATO and the United Nations and other countries also get involved with talks with countries in crisis?
---------------------------

What STUNS me with you mindpartizan, and it is very unfortunate, is that you yourself pass on totally incorrect information and claim it is truth. I tell you to even Google something and you won't.

What really shocked me is that you claim scholars aren't investigating terrorism, and Middle Eastern studies. You base your claim on "a rumor", and "word has it". Not on even a solid piece of reporting. It is an outright lie. Why should I believe you? I attend, when I can get my ass out of the house, readings at local bookstores and the University about such topics. The "thought" police don't interrupt the lectures.

Are you in University now? If you are you have all the opportunities in the world to study Middle Eastern policy. I don't think you are, or you wouldn't make such statements.

-----------------------------

And yes, sadly there are profiles on Middle Easterners. We know there are homegrown terrorists in every country. As noted those who brought down the WTC were individuals of the Middle Class who helped carry out the hijackings on 9/11. Of course you don't believe that, so there is no discussion there.
---------------------------------

Again, why should anyone believe you, when just that one statement is a patent lie? Go look at any university, especially those that have decent schools on Public Policy and Foreign Policy programs. Those students are the future re: dealing with this. You could be the future if you chose to study this.

-------------------------------
I can't look at what you post anymore, as if you post a lie like that, and truly believe in these conspiracies, and accuse me of not being interested or aware of what's going on -- in my meager way as a citizen who can't read about politics all day, but it has caught my interest since 9/11. God I wish I didn't come down here to "That's Life", I like some of the other discussions.

------------------------------

And I know it is MY responsibility to NOT react to these threads. God, it takes me forever to learn.

I am not an expert on this, but you clearly don't even watch decent programs on TV in your own country. Debates, etc. And don't read magazines that have more balanced reporting and also have serious debates on our actions in Iraq. What of the book "Fiasco" for example ... totally bashes the Bush administration. It's a big seller here. Look it up on amazon. I can't think of the author.

I can only bet of you to not spread misinformation, which people suck up like vaccum cleaners as they don't want to research for themselves.

End of rant.
Cheers
D*


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Also, we aren't the only country that profiles. The British have foiled a number of terrorist plots. There is terrorism all over the world of various kinds. The governmnets of other countries must do the same thing we do.

It isn't pretty.

The world is a scary violent place full of people who simply don't agree with each other. We can only educate ourselves. My GOD, there are many reporters STATIONED in Iraq. From many countries. How can you not know that? You can't watch "local TV" to find that. You have to watch international news from various sources.

Unbelievable. You believe in conspiracies, and spread outright incorrect information.

In WW2 we profiled the Japanese and put them in INTERNMENT camps! I know a woman whose Japanese parents (before she was born) had EVERYTHING taken from them (their home etc.) and were put in camps in Idaho, I think.

There is discrimination the world over. The French distrust their Muslim population, they have tried to ban the use of any overtly religous "clothing or symbols" in ALL people of Faith ... the true purpose to break "the Muslim sense of unity". They decided to do this to ALL religions to disquise their motives. No Jews or Christians were to wear "obvious outward signs of their Faith" that means yarmulkes sp? on Jews (caps), large Crosses on Christians, and of course clothing women wear in the Muslim faith, as though that didn't piss EVERYONE off.

I don't know the status of that now.

I can't argue this anymore, I just can't.

Lord help me with this stupid addiction!


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## mind^partizan (Nov 11, 2006)

Im talking only about US. Because nobody else interferes around the world like this, with a role of a policeman, who commits crimes in secret. Why do you call such theories a conspiracy ones - it is because it goes against mainstream American media which is dependent. You cant even trust American Universities any more, because corporations have put their hands even there.

Also, which statement of mine was a "complete lie"?

You say i believe in conspiracy theories, but i cant think of any conspiracy theorist that i listened to. Did i create all this? I sleep a lot, so maybe... I believe evrything what Chomsky says. If he is a conspiracy theorist, then ok, i agree, im a conspiracy theorist too.

I go to Al-Jazeera, read Toronto Star, watch and read everything of Chomsky and now i found Howard Zinn, who was fired from university, because "misled students". No TV at all. Sometimes CNN to laugh and watch Bush`s speech.

Why do you say "we" when refering to US? It may make me think that u feel that US actions represent American peoples wants. Which would be terrible.

You have too much of a inertia of knowledge about US. DRASTIC changes happened after 9/11. Two different countries are before 9/11 and after. 9/11 was crucial event.

Also, i wanted dismiss various mainstream media sources as being the only thing in order to know things. They give u FILTERED info. But someone like Chomsky, gives u the meanings - a sort of encyclopedia, whereu dont need to do the research yourself. I know it is dangerous to believe in any one person, but i do , in Chomsky. I dont necessarilly need books, newspapers,.. one hour of Choskys lecture, and i know more, and i dont need to connect the things form various events through years, because simply i dont know them yet. While you, apparently, know these events and create this general view about US, but im telling, 21st century, changed so much...things happen too quickly which is very dangerous.


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## mind^partizan (Nov 11, 2006)

OK, i admit, i go too fast, and believe too much. Its actually against my nature...

Dont take anything what i said personally.

I just fear the world is running out of time. It really is. :shock:


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## mind^partizan (Nov 11, 2006)

:idea: http://www.chomsky.info :idea:


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Blimey Woman!

Dreamer, your appetite for statistics is phenomenal. Where do you store this information in your brain? I'm asking seriously. I wish I cared to learn about what is going on in the world.


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## mind^partizan (Nov 11, 2006)

"People who shut their eyes to reality simply invite their own destruction" - James Baldwin


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Depends whether you think reality is inwards or out I suppose. Mine is inside.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

mind^partizan said:


> You have too much of a inertia of knowledge about US. DRASTIC changes happened after 9/11. Two different countries are before 9/11 and after. 9/11 was crucial event.


Very important point!



> Question This is a huge topic in political science at many U.S. universities. It's important to know about terrorism in order to deal with it. People get degrees in Poli Sci and foreign policy for this very reason. Where did you hear this?


I was being general and admittedly distorting the truth. However there was a case here in Australia of a university student of middle-eastern descent doing his PhD on something related to Terrorism. When he hired out a certain book from a library he was flagged as suspicious and interrogated by the Police/Government. Many other people in his University doing the same research were not targeted.

This is the kind of "Thought police" I am referring to. Basically I'm saying you need to be very careful, because right now I feel like the U.S. Government is using the "roper dope" manouvre. Keep the citizens afraid and focussed on EVIL MEN outside the country. Meanwhile use that as an excuse to erode your personal freedoms and liberties until it comes to the stage where they absolutely control you and potentially there is a dictatorship which you can't do anything about.

"Go back to bed America, you're government is in control again. Here, here's American Gladiators. Here's 56 channels of it! Watch this! Shut up! Go back to bed America. You are free, to do as we tell you! You are free, to do as we tell you!" - Bill Hicks.

By the way MP, if you haven't discovered the beauty of Bill Hicks yet, I suggest you check him out


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## mind^partizan (Nov 11, 2006)

Thanks CECIL, you rejuvenate me  I`ll check the person you mentioned


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## mind^partizan (Nov 11, 2006)

University of Wisconsin-Madison lecturer Kevin Barrett about 9/11 and stuff:






http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ldge2LM4VGM& ... ed&search=

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ygzh6Ng52Is& ... ed&search=


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

CECIL said:


> I was being general and admittedly distorting the truth. However there was a case here in Australia of a university student of middle-eastern descent doing his PhD on something related to Terrorism. When he hired out a certain book from a library he was flagged as suspicious and interrogated by the Police/Government. Many other people in his University doing the same research were not targeted.


Cecil,
*This is unfortunate. You admit to distorting the truth for your own ends, to promote your own agenda which you accuse governments of doing. How can someone believe you anymore than they believe a corrupt governent? Also, this "profiling" was done in your own country. The US didn't make YOUR government be concerned about its own citizens.*

Again, yes, people are "flagged", watched. This is nothing new. My father-in-law was a Communist his entire life. Though he took advantage of the freedoms of the US and his family immigrated here, he remained a Communist until he died. He was also under scrutiny by the government -- this is back in the 1940s. But he never did anything wrong, so he was never arrested or brought in for questioning. They kept an eye on him. He knew it and found it amusing.

The irony is he was in the military, and ultimately, because he was a superb aeronautical engineer he ended up working for NASA -- built the launch pads for the early space missions as well as the prototype for the Space Shuttle which was originally built for strictly military purposes. One thing though, because he was a Jew, he had to change his name from Goldberg to a more "American" sounding name. Jews are profiled all the time, the world over. They are considered the greatest subversives. This is nothing new.

Though my father in law insisted The Soviet Union was "perfect", he put up with the profiling he received in those years when Communism was terrifying the US -- and the Communism was of great concern to the West the world over. He also appreciated his freedoms here in the US, though he hated to admit it. He was a target of suspicion as he subscribed to Communist magazines, was a member of a Communist organization, etc.

But he was never kept from working here.

A friend of mine from college got her Ph.D. in Slavic Language and Literature and visited the former Soviet Union numerous times to to do research on her thesis on contemporary poets there -- she interviewed them. She was also on a "watch list" and questioned a few times as an AMERICAN spy in the Soviet Union.

Also, re: profiling. For MP, there is a great documentary on CBC, "The Fifth Estate" re: the profiling that has gone on in Canada for years, following a cell of "home grown" terrorists. Young Muslim men who chose to follow a more extreme form of Islam (NOT ALL ISLAM is bad, NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS.)

*Cecil, by actually agreeing that you "distorted the truth" -- isn't that what Bush does? -- what makes you any different? Regardless of the cause, good or bad, you are equally culpable. Why lie to promote your own ends if they are legitimate. Why isn't your truth strong enough without being exagerrated, or for you to make outright mistatements that only fuel further misunderstanding?*

MP, Info on CBC profiling and following a Muslim group whose terrorist plot in Toronto was foiled by years of Canadian authorities following these kids.

Watch the documentary. It discusses the greater prevalence now of "home grown terrorists" who have been around for YEARS in MANY countries. Many governments attempt to foil terrorist activities by legal means as delineated by their own governments.

In just the way a serial killer may be profiled, a rapist, a white collar embezzler, law enforcement on all levels follows the activities of people. Again, look at history, this is nothing new.

It is sad the world is this way, but many countries have avoided serious attacks by anti-government factions. Within all countries there are rebels against the existing government. The Basque party in Spain who blew up a subway is another example. It doesn't have to be Muslims.

Article from the BBC re: profiling in Canada. My sense again is that MP will not watch this program.

MP you admit, it is indeed dangerous to follow only one POV. Yet you do. Because someone is an intellectual, this doesn't mean they are infallable sp? I thought you like to look at many different points of view?

Again this is useless, but I thought I'd post it anyway. The documentary is running this month on CBC:
-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/

*"AMONG THE BELIEVERS: CRACKING THE TORONTO TERROR CELL
Wednesday January 17 at 9pm on CBC-TV
see CBC Newsworld times at the right*

Last summer, Toronto's mostly moderate Muslim community found itself in the glare of unwelcome public attention from the international media when eighteen men were charged with plotting terrorist attacks on Canadian soil.

In a special co-production with PBS Frontline, the fifth estate goes inside the alleged terror cell.

A Muslim fundamentalist who infiltrated the cell reveals to the fifth estate's Linden MacIntyre the inner workings of the cell and its members. *These are young men who have adopted a brand of Islam that they believe sanctions jihad in their home city and against their fellow citizens."*

Broadcast in High Definition.

*My purpose in this is here is NOT to defend Bush, is NOT to defend any corruption in our government, it is to dispel rumour and innuendo that you admit to spreading -- yourself! A lie is a lie is a lie, regardless of who tells it. If it is done for "good", or "to deceive."

Conspiracies are complex deceptions. You are no better than the people you attack.*
-------------------------------------------
I know you neither believe me, nor understand what I'm saying. But every now and then I have to contribute my 2 cents.

And yes, I am afraid, "The Doomsday Clock" has moved closer to Midnight. But part of the concern by scientists is global warming. Another is Iran's threats to initiate some form of nuclear confrontation. We don't know if they are rattling swords or not. But North Korea and Iran have been doing this for DECADES. Not just since 9/11.

Sad you have no real curiosity re: other sources of information.
I try to remain informed. And you still, you or MP, don't aknowledge that I DON'T depend on the "standard media." I look at many sources. I don't even have access to CNN, I have seen it, and it is essentially watered down news about nothing. Endless repetitive speculation.

You know the mentally ill have been "profiled" and reviled since time began. It's fortunate we aren't considered to be possessed by demons.

History is important. It repeats itself. Too bad you don't even care about it. That is blindness. That is ignorance. And I consider myself to having a drop in the bucket of knowledge in all of this.

My only goal is to dispel lies. And you have lied Cecil. The pot calling the kettle black.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

"The first thing you are likely to see and that we have seen is the "thought police". You are no longer allowed to even be curious and study terrorism in America (There's even been a report of someone doing their PhD in Australia that got investigated Shocked ). You can't talk about bombs or bombings or hijacking because if you do, you run the risk of being arrested and questioned as a suspected Terrorist. "

This is what I said. It was an exaggeration, but the reason I exaggerated was because that is where I see things heading.

The story about the PhD student is true and I wouldn't be surprised if things like this are occurring in the US as well. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't hear about it on the news because the news channels are incredibly biased in the US.

Australia is far from innocent in this regard - Our PM pretty much does whatever Bush says regardless of if its supported by the people. Does anyone else see a problem here? Governments are supposed to be afraid of the people, not the other way around.

It is true that people are paranoid about terrorism. Perhaps you can say "bomb" on a plane, but it would certainly make people uneasy. And if you were to talk about blowing up a building in the middle of a busy restaurant, even if joking, you would definately get some uneasy looks.

Under the Patriot Act, the US government CAN (They won't necessarily) arrest its citizens for being suspected of Terrorist acts. It can then hold them without charging them in circumstances like David Hicks has been held (i.e. In Guantanamo bay in who knows what condition without being charged, without being given a fair trial and not even allowing external psychiatrists in to give an unbiased mental health assessment).

What's my point? My point is that Homeland Security and say you are a terrorist for anything they choose and then arrest you and hold you in a cell for as long as they like. They have the potential to work without legal clearance such as search warrants etc and violate your human rights.

Now, at the moment they won't arrest just anyone on the street. But what happens if suddenly talking about Terrorism makes you a suspect? What happens if speaking out against Iraq makes you a suspect? What happens if supporting anyone but Bush in office makes you a suspect? Can you see where I'm going here?

The Bush Administration has undermined your legal systems and your civil rights (Those things that Americans apparently hold dear). They are poised to be able to LEGALLY take away your freedoms while you are cowering in fear.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Dreamer said:


> History is important. It repeats itself. Too bad you don't even care about it. That is blindness. That is ignorance. And I consider myself to having a drop in the bucket of knowledge in all of this.


If history is to repeat itself then the US empire will collapse. The problem is that empires now are so large that they will take the entire world down with them.

History repeats, but there is also novelty that arises at all times. Right now that novelty is a new energy - an energy of freedom and peace. We are just about ready to break out of our routines as a species and launch ourselves into something new. What can you do about it? Change yourself and the world changes with you.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

CECIL said:


> mind^partizan said:
> 
> 
> > You have too much of a inertia of knowledge about US. DRASTIC changes happened after 9/11. Two different countries are before 9/11 and after. 9/11 was crucial event.
> ...


OK,
For the last time I'll try to finish up with my point. Again, please don't make gross EASY generalizations about the entire people of a country.

*George Orwell wrote "1984" in 1949 -- NINETEEN FORTY-NINE. That was FIFTY-EIGHT years ago. It had a powerful message then. You think no one worried about such things before now? That was required reading for me in highschool -- in political science class in highschool! HIGHSCHOOL, when I was 15. That book was of tremendous importance then as it is now. It was one of my favorite books.*

You seem to think I am somehow "old school" and lacking in any information -- this special information you have? Of course I know that profiling goes on here in the US, but it goes on EVERYWHERE ... your own country does it. You said it YOURSELF. But the US didn't make Australia spy on a Muslim student! Dear GOD. And yes, we are now following the activities of potential terrorists. JUST LIKE YOUR COUNTRY.

And Dear GOD, yes, the world is changed since 9/11, but this is how things are in a very technically advanced global society.

And yes, of course Empires fall. The U.S. will fall -- let's hope it's not to terrorists. They rise and fall and have been for centuries. For a billion reasons. God knows who/what the next great empire will be. China? who has just conducted a "space satellite intercept" test? They're working on Star Wars again for God's sake. The British Empire is long gone, they were considered "imperialst dogs", the Spanish, the French. We are not the first "Empire" nor are we the last.

*The point is, at this juncture in history, we have a bad President. One who has caused a great deal of mess and misery. We do have a limit on the number of terms a President can have, unlike a dictator or royalty.

As each country develops, as did the US, modern life changes the country both for the good or bad.

And you are enjoying the benefits of modernity such as cell phones, IPods, computers, television. You are more than able to give that all away if you wished. No one forced that on you. I find the US a country that indeed wants "immediate self-gratification". I don't like a lot of aspects of this country, and yet I also am very glad I was born here.*

And please again, don't think that many Americans don't despise Bush or don't know what is going on. How do you think the Democrats won so many seats in Congress. THEY WERE VOTED IN! If 9/11 hadn't happened, who knows what we'd be posting here right now. History is fluid it can never stop moving and changing.

But the US is always criticized. There is always anti-Americanism. We are blamed for the corruption of other countries, when the countries themselves don't take responsibility. No one is any "better or worse" than another.

I forgot that "Big Brother" is very alive and well in Britain. See article below. The British LIKE surveillance cameras, even though they haven't proven to stop crime.

*The key point. The US government and people screw up, royally, and we also accomplish good things, just like any other country. This current administration is the NADIR of our history as I see it right now. But who knows. How can everyone forget that in EVERY COUNTRY in this world there is the same crap going on, or different stuff like starvation, warfare, etc., etc.

Yes, the US one day will not be so influential. So then China will be. Or perhaps Russia will again be of great influence ... perhaps the hatred of Muslim extremists will bring back the world Muhammed claimed centuries back. Who the Hell knows?*

It's just tiresome that it seems the US "forces" other countries to be "bad". Other countries act on their own volition too, for their own reasons, agendas. Good and bad. We are a part of a large picture. We have power to do good, and we have the idiocy to do bad things.

Why no one understands this is one tiny world now, not the same as when no one knew what was going on in another country as it took a month for news to travel, it's all a mystery to me.

*There are so many countries, Western and other, with sectarian violence, political division, violence, crime, poverty. Health insurance and education have as many problems in other countries as in the US. The US didn't MAKE other countries bad. And we didn't ask for our civilians to be attacked. Why do the terrorists get an easy pass on this? Terrorisits in other Western countries are reviled, but somehow the US "deserved this."*

YES OF COURSE I KNOW what's going on here -- profiling, I just wrote a whole mess about it -- did you read what I wrote? We've done that as have other countries since tiime began.

And MP, if you've read all of Chomsky, you've been reading since you were four. The man is prolific. I think I was required to read 2 or 3 books of his in college or uni. I don't know how many books he's written, but you couldn't have read all of them.

Here's "Big Brother" in England, and no the Americans didn't make the British put up these surveillance cameras! :roll:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Article about "Big Brother" :roll: in Britain. No, this isn't a US conspiracy, either.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0206/p07s02-woeu.htm

*"Big Brother in Britain: Does more surveillance work?*

By Mark Rice-Oxley | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor
KINGSTON, ENGLAND -

"It was all over in 54 seconds. One moment the four friends were strolling home after a night out, the next they were nursing injuries inflicted by a knife-wielding assailant.

Another sad tale of crime and impunity in modern Britain? Not quite, for the incident last April in this town in southeast England was filmed from start to finish on surveillance cameras. Police were rapidly alerted; a suspect was quickly identified, apprehended, convicted, and sentenced. Case closed.

*It's successes like these that are giving CCTV, or closed-circuit television, a good name in Britain. The technology has become popular and widespread, with the result that Britons are by far the most watched people on earth, with one camera for every 14 people, according to recent estimates.

More than 4 million cameras observe all aspects of life, from town centers to transport systems, office towers to banks, commercial zones to residential areas, restaurants, bars, and even churches.*

In 1990, just three towns had systems. Now some 500 do, after a decade in which more than ?250 million ($460 million) of public money was funneled into CCTV systems.

*"The British public seem to like it," says Martin Gill, professor of criminology at Leicester University. "One of the great problems of our lives is crime and disorder, and people feel it can be tackled by having cameras on the wall."

But serious question marks hang over the technology and its dark Orwellian implications. Many cameras are hidden or not signposted, in breach of regulations. Several cases of abuse have been documented, raising fears of snooping or worse.*

Civil liberty groups complain that the intrusive lens scanning for suspicious characters contravenes that pillar of civil society - the presumption of innocence.

Research meanwhile suggests that the camera systems may not actually deter criminals.

"One of the concerns about CCTV is that it can give a false sense of security," says Barry Hugill of Liberty, a civil liberties and human rights group based in London. "I suspect that the reason why people are happy with CCTV is that they say it makes us safer and stops crime. But we don't think there's evidence that that is the case."

Indeed, research has yet to support the case for CCTV.

A government review 18 months ago found that security cameras were effective in tackling vehicle crime but had limited effect on other crimes. Improved streetlighting recorded better results.

A new report being drawn up by Professor Gill for the government promises to be no more favorable in its assessment of CCTV as a crime-fighting tool.

"I have talked to offenders about this," says Gill. "They say they are not concerned by security cameras, unless they were actually caught by one."

Britain is a case apart from Europe, where most countries embraced the technology only in the late 1990s - and then with caution. According to researchers now preparing a report on comparative systems, France tends to limit coverage to high-risk locations and public buildings, while in Spain, surveillance is tightly controlled. In Austria, it is used primarily for traffic and transport systems. In Germany, it was severely restricted in public spaces until recently.

*But in Britain, the public has had a soft spot for CCTV ever since it was used to dramatic effect to solve a wretched crime more than 11 years ago.*

Most people can still picture the grainy footage of two juveniles leading 2-year-old Jamie Bulger by the hand out of a shopping mall in Liverpool. He was found dead days later. Without those images, experts say, police would have been looking for a culprit with an entirely different profile from the 11-year-old offenders.

"Since Jamie Bulger's case over here, the public see CCTV not as Big Brother but as a benevolent father," says Peter Fry, director of the CCTV user group, a 600-member association of organizations who use the technology.

*"If you ask the public what they would like to do about crime, No. 1 is more police on the street and No. 2 is more CCTV," he adds.

The trend coincides with a growing culture of snooping in Britain, where speed cameras rule the highway, residents post their own cameras to spy on trespassers, and the favorite TV shows revolve around hidden cameras observing bland people lounging around.*

But not everyone is reassured by the idea of lenses capable of reading a car license plate from half a mile away. Anecdotal evidence suggests the technology can be used for voyeurism, and concerns remain about who gets access to the tapes, which are typically held for a month before being erased.

In one case, a man's attempted suicide was caught on camera and passed on to television. Mr Lazell says he sometimes gets individuals calling on him to use the technology to spy on partners.

Prof. Clive Norris, deputy director of the center for criminological research at Sheffield University, told a recent conference that the technology "enables people to be tracked and monitored and harassed and socially excluded on the basis that they do not fit into the category of people that a council or shopping center wants to see in a public space."

*Legislation requires authorities to clearly signal where cameras are in operation, yet as many as 80 percent are thought to break this rule.

Some cameras are being developed with face-recognition technology that raises further alarms.

"There are privacy concerns," says Mr Hugill of Liberty. "There are people who believe that we have fundamental human right to go about our business without being spied on. CCTV is spying. It's monitoring your every move."

Naturally, surveillance enthusiasts scoff at such logic, saying that operators will not be focusing on the average member of the public, but on anyone acting out of the ordinary.

For Mr. Lazell, it's a trade-off: a little liberty for greater security.

"All progress offers compromise," he comments. "Would you be prepared to take down all cameras in the Underground and let terrorists move about without being seen?"*

---------------------------------------------------------

We all do what we can do, to take responsibility for ourselves, our famlies, our communities, our countries as best we can, etc. And again, I do not feel that the average person is spectacularly intelligent nor especially good. And that means anywhere in this world.

The US may be going to Hell in a Handbasket, but so is everyone else ---screwing up in their own countries. I wish we didn't toss blame around but worked on diplomacy -- sadly something Bush has NO skill in.
---------------------------------------------------------- 
D
"Intertia of knowledge." WTF is that? And Cecil, "distorting the truth" is LYING, L-Y-I-N-G. 
:?


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## mind^partizan (Nov 11, 2006)

Sorry, i cant respond to all of your idea now , Dreamer, but regarding Britain, they hav similar burden on their conscience about the war in Iraq for example. I agree about surveillance cameras too. Its terrible. I cant understad how do Brits like it or allow it.

And u say its a "mess" what Bush has been doing. I say its way too light to say its a "mess". He is one of the biggest criminals in this planet. Iraq war was not justified at all. Well, it was, but that were lies. I think Russia, China, USA, France, Britain, Israel are the worst (on imperialism). i do not agree that there arent "worse and better" . There are. And i listed these. Im from a small country that was raped throughout history, so i have an idea who is better ,who is worse. Imperialists are imperialists.

Unfortunatelly, my country still cant be independent. Like through all the history, we are either western europe`s/Washington`s or Moscow`s toy. Today we are in EU, but we take a "brave" stance: we demonstrate W.europe that if u are a bad leader, we`ll go follow Washington`s orders. Thats the sad reality of being small. Bush came to my country and said: Whoever will choose X as an enemy, will face USA" , somth like that. We carved his words in stone. U think they were honest? haha. All Washington need is a new "ally" , a new territory, a new subordinate, to do busines and expand the empire. And we are supposed to be happy, bec he says America will "protect" us.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Dreamer I hear what you're saying. I'm not really sure if we are arguing and if we are, why :?

At any rate, I heard another disturbing story on the radio today: A man was going to get on a plane wearing a T-shirt that equated Bush to a terrorist. They wouldn't let him fly! Why? Because "Passengers might be offended by your shirt".

Complete BS if you ask me. Like the man said "If people are going to get offended, I think at some stage you just have to say 'Bad Luck'".

Very disturbing that this sort of stuff is happening in Australia


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

I guess I'm just ... defensive. I read yet another article on what I read here in comments on this Board all the time, that America is going to Hell and that we are unaware of what's going on.

I guess, it would never occur to me to say, "Britons! Read this article about surveillance cameras! Look what you've done to yourselves, you've moved one step closer to a dictatorshp!" And of course no one mentions the crime in Britain. The mention the crime in America.

I would never say that. If I ever have I beg forgiveness.

I'm merely saying, there is invariably a complaint from members of other countries, notably the Crown countries that America is ruining the world. I'm merely saying that there are many countries that contribute both positive and negative things to the world.

I don't say, "God those idiot Chinese for polluting the world!" "The stupid Somalians for not getting their act together and having no formal government for 16 years."

It stings to think that many believe 9/11 never happened when everyone believes in terrorism in other countries. When people blame the US for the proliferation of MacDonalds sp? in their countries, etc.

What is most interesting about America is that we are a nation of immigrants. That is wonderful and that makes things difficult. If you look at NYC or any large city in the US it is international. Individuals bring their own cultures with them.

Again, my biggest beef is gross generalizations, and Cecil your exagerration. As I said, I guess I'm very defensive. And I try to keep on my toes. And of course I have tremendous concern over the future, especially since Bush has made some hideous choices in foreign policy.

He is indeed the worst President we've ever had.

But if America stands for the propogation of democracy, and for capitalism, the freedom of women, freedom of religous worship ... I don't see all of these things as "evil." They are what we are as a country. And to say we are the most "warlike" or violent country in the world is simply not true. There are many other countries with true dictators who very much wish to hurt the West, who don't wish to "play by any rule of civility or diplomacy."

America is trying to help put out fires. Sometimes we have overstepped our bounds. I am not happy we are engaged in Iraq.

I don't know. It seems more constructive to look for solutions, or at least consider them, then laying blame. Calling names. I particularly dislike some of our journalists, such as Maureen Dowd, using names like "Dubya" and "Rummy", etc. To me criticism like that isn't professional reporting -- though it is indeed freedom of speech.

The main thing is this post. "A warning to Americans, as though we don't know the scary situation we're in. A situation we were led into with lies. The United Nations was inspecting Iraq for 10 years for WMD before Bush used "WRONGFULLY SO" to invade Iraq. Many swore we'd find them, off Saddam and be out of there.

It is easy to blame the US for all the troubles in the world, and we contribute our share of horrible mistakes and missteps. But there are other countries that threaten Western freedoms that aren't mentioned, which astounds me.

That's all.
As I've said, I don't believe in gross generalizations about anything, I don't believe in conspiracies, I don't believe in pointing fingers, and I don't have an idealized view of any political system. I find all of these things non-productive.

We will see what the next few years bring.

And I don't know how we "fight" terrorism. Something on such a grand scale as this. No one does. Each country does what it thinks is the right way to protect its citizens. If you have a better idea, then suggest it. Don't cast blame. I dont' think that is constructive. And don't spread misinformation.

I guess that's what ticks me off.

D


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## mind^partizan (Nov 11, 2006)

Dont argue girls! Lets be friendly! :lol:

I just found a nice quote from the smart guy, NOAM:

The Government is the shadow the Corporations cast over society. The essence of Corporate propaganda is to 
direct the peoples anger towards the shadow rather than towards the Substance. - N. Chomsky

Here we go.

Dreamer, i havent read any book of Noam Chomsky. But i learned about him in school, we read some of his stuff. I also watched quite a lot of his lectures, speeches or interviews.

By the way, i just read news article where they stated that there are already 115 contenders for USA president ellection. Some analyst (im not sure how to call his title in english) said that noone of them would be able to seriously contend, get significant attention (let alone votes), unless they raise at least 100 000 000$. Where can these contenders get the money from? where else? - Corporations will open their pockets. To those who will work for them. Plain logic. Plain tyrrany.

By the way, i will mention that my country`s president was also paid by a Russian businessman for that contender`s ellection campaign. And this guy actually won the ellection. Closely though. But later the country had one of the biggest scandals ever. This president started "paying off" this Russian guy. He had no choice. The businessman was pressuring him and blackmailing. Anyway, this president was brought down later.

Well, i guess these bad forces in America are more sophisticated (they have more control on every part of human life) and Americans cant expect such happy ending soon. We should make sure it comes sooner than later. This day could be called Western Independence Day.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Yeah I guess I can be quite aggressive when I get on a rant about something I'm passionate about :lol:

I'm not intentionally throwing around blame, more trying to point out a lot of hypocrisy.

The solution is simple: We all start living our own lives without fear and let everyone else get on with theirs. There'd be no reason to attack America, for example, if America wasn't constantly trying to control global politics or even worse, arming people's enemies.

It may seem insensitive but ultimately other countries affairs aren't our responsibility, they have to work it out for themselves.

Perhaps I'm just naive but I have very high hopes for humanity. I see our potential yet I see it squandered at each turn


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

CECIL said:


> Yeah I guess I can be quite aggressive when I get on a rant about something I'm passionate about :lol:
> 
> I'm not intentionally throwing around blame, more trying to point out a lot of hypocrisy.
> 
> ...


I don't see this as insensitive "others working things out for themselves" -- I see it as impossible, again, in a tiny world where there are billions of people trying to survive on the limited resources of one planet.

America is not the only country involved in other countries. We are all enmeshed in one way or another. Again, Cecil I imagine you are communicating with me "strange as it seems" on a computer that was made mainly in China or Japan. Perhaps, I had some vegemite this evening along with a cup of tea from England in a teapot I got from Murchies in Vancouver. The planes your country flies were buiilt at a Boeing plant in your country that employs your citizens? I also see a lot of buses in many countries are Mercedes Benz.

Some of this is hypothetical, but consider the complexity. If you did not IMPORT ANYTHING from any other country (not just the US), what does Australia produce? Could/would Australia or New Zealand be exactly as it is now. Would you want it to be any different? I'm not saying it's good or bad, one way or another. But there are things you wouldn't have/own/use, the same is true of every country in the world. Would your citizens have more or less employment as a result? Would they lack certain raw materials to run a particular construction project, etc.

And I am not familiar of what Australia exports. But what it exports is what creates jobs there. If you stopped EXPORTING, (which is in esssense trade), would Australia simply take care of itself, completely, on every level of existence? I don' think that would work anymore. Not in 2007.

And you would have to have a government separate from the Crown, yes? No need to interact with your allies for any reason? Not come to the aid of Canada if there were a horrible earthquake that devastated the Pacific rim and flooded Vancouver? (I love Victoria and Vancouver)

*My question is, what is the problem with living as "one world", keeping our diversity, yet acknowledging we need each other? We are too proud, but we are also very individualistic .... tribal. This is our human nature.
*

*No ONE COUNTRY has the ability to sustain itself completely on its own anymore, there has always been a need for interaction with other cultures. Exchange of goods and services. Medication, research, knowledge, inventions of every shape and kind, machinery, transportation, fuel, water, electricity. FOOD. Who will grow, process, package, transport? Where is the land best for growing grapes? Where is the best place to put a factory, for anything?

We cannot be isolationist anymore. We are thrown into situations, conflicts on a regular basis.*

I'm curious how many things you own or have around your apartment or home that were made in other countries? We both import and export. So do you. We have no choice.

Bottom line I guess, if you live in the desert, wouldn't you wish to trade something for a water purification plant? Who has the knowledge to build it? Where is the university that teaches the engineer to build the dam in the middle of the desert.

Life is not simple. Nothing is simple.
And again, I do not believe people are innately good.
And Bush, couldn't watch him on TV again. He just doesn't think. He doesn't listen to people around him who know better. JFK did the opposite, he followed his own instincts during the Cuban missile crisis. Had he listened to many bright advisors around him the US wouldn't be here today. We would have been nuked.

*And curious, just a last sincere question. What do you do for a living in Australia? Or are you a student? Sorry if I missed this. Or what do you wish to do? If you wish to open a surf shop, your own business, won't you be hoping for foreign tourists to come and enjoy your lovely country. I've never been, and I'd love to get there one day.

But what is your IDEAL job? Just curious.*

Cheers,
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

And really I don't see this as an argument. It is a debate. And as noted, I am defensive. I am also passionatee about things, about what will happen to the world. I've traveled to many countries in my life. I love the diversity, I love the beauty of the world, different gifts different cultures have to offer.

I'd say there are good people in the world, but you even said it yourself, you have a desire to be isolationist. This would mean you would defend your territory against someone who might want a shrimp off your barby ... then what would you do? :twisted:

Cheers,
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

You can look at it negatively or positively, but what about old Christopher Columbus? That Spanish dude who decided to go check out the rest of the world?

"Like Columbus in the olden days, we must gather all our courage, sail our ships out on the open sea, cast away our fears and all the years will come and go and take us up, always up. We may never pass this way again."

It was easier to fight with swords and sticks and stones and bayonets, or simply hand to hand. We now have technology, and there is no turning back.


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## mind^partizan (Nov 11, 2006)

Smile, George is saying hi :


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## Pollyanna 3098 (Dec 12, 2006)

> Smile, George is saying hi :


 :lol:

Do we have a winner?

3098


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Pollyanna 3098 said:


> > Smile, George is saying hi :
> 
> 
> :lol:
> ...


Neither of the above posts is at all constructive to the debate.

The video of Bush is disgusting, yes. It only again proves he doesn't have the sense to project a professional image. Inexcusable.

And 3098, I have no clue what you mean by "Do we have a winner?" Meaning everything I have posted means nothing?

Again, simple responses to complex problems. :roll:


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2007)

Dreamer said:


> Again, simple responses to complex problems. :roll:


If I were to respond to this thread, it would ?have? to be a simple respond because I "am" simple... so now I feel I'm not "allowed" to reply in this thread due to my lack of IQ.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

You make a very good point Dreamer - all countries now are dependant on each other. Australia would very well be boned if we stopped importing, since most of our products are imported. Our main exports are Wool, Wheat and Iron Ore (Possibly gas and Uranium too - not too sure).

However I didn't mean we should all draw back into our own countries and live seperately. On the contrary I have very high hopes for humanity. My vision of the world's future is uniting as a global community and exploring inner and outer space together, forever in peace (Paraphrased from Bill Hicks). To get there though it will take a whole lot of getting our shit together, collectively 

I am a firm believer in personal responsibility, and this notion extends to the macrocosm of international politics as well. If you have a problem, its your responsibility to sort it out. If someone sorts it out for you then you are disempowered (disempowerment is one core feature of DP btw).

However, this does NOT mean you can't ask for help. If you ask for help then there'll be more than enough people (or countries as the case may be) that can help you. But that implies willingness/intent to change. Iraq didn't ask for the world's help (I don't really believe that they are keen on the US staying in their country either). In fact, the terrorist attacks etc point out that they really want to sort this out themselves (or at least a sub-section of the country does).

Bush's theme seems to be "We as the most powerful force in the world have a responsibility to protect other countries". Well, with that I disagree with just as I disagree with Howard sending Australian troops to Iraq. Like I said, it seems harsh but other countries really need to sort themselves out first. At the same time, Australia, the US and the UK all have social issues we need to figure out before we can proclaim to be the shining examples for the rest of the world. e.g. Poverty, homelessness, unemployment and drought, to name a few.

Honestly I can't come up with an all encompassing solution since I am only one man. Something like that would take a lot of clued up people. Right now we have a lot of people but while they have their hearts in the right place (i.e. Their intentions are for the best), their judgement is clouded by factors too numerous to list. This goes for all of our national leaders at the moment, not only America.

As for me? Right now I am doing a Traineeship to learn to be a Youth Worker. Before that I was working at a fast food place while I was at university. I got a Bachelor degree with Honours in Biomedical Science but soon after lost interest in the field completely :roll:

My ideal "job", or more appropriately what I see as my life's calling, is to be a Shaman. A Shaman first heals themself (How appropriate I went through mental illness  ) and then heals others.

Right now I am in between my "old self" - i.e. the one that was depressed, anxious and plagued by DP - and my "new self" - i.e. the one that is fully self-actualised and fully healed. So you can see the driving intent behind my posts here - both to inspire myself (or perhaps distract myself :lol and ideally to help others as well.

Like I said, I have high hopes for myself and for humanity. Some may say I'm too optimistic and perhaps I am, but that is my dream. And without dreams, nothing would be accomplished 

What about you Dreamer?


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