# Do DP/DR, depression is a personality disorder???



## Guest (Feb 16, 2005)

Hi,

I asked to a psychologist to see me, and she reffered me to a clinic who treats personality disorders (severe). I feel very ill and crazy right now.

Do we have a personality disorder?

Can someone hold my hand, for a minute, I feel so ill, and depressed, I cry because I don't see the meaning of this all.
 
Cynthia


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## dreamcatcher (Sep 23, 2004)

cynthia<<<<hugs>>>>

i don't think its personality disorder.....it lose of ones self.....but i can't see the harm with going....maybe he'll beable to help you find the real you


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## kenc127 (Aug 10, 2004)

Yes, our personality disorder is narcissism, and the associated narcissistic defenses cause the DP. Find a way to erode the need for narcissism, and DP will never bother you again.

Ken


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2005)

I do think its a personality disorder, i can tell there are alot of the same personalities on here, there are different groups of people here with the same personalities, thats why we mostly agree with each other and can relate to each other, we have the same backgrounds and so on.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2005)

It doesnt have to be, Ken, it can also be Borderline PD (BPD).
But men will most likely be diagnosed with NPD, women with BPD.
(I dont have it in me to write a whole post about it, sorry :? )


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2005)

So I am borderline or narcissic, :!: and I have to go to a semi-clinic specialised in all personality disorders, where they have psychiatrists and psychologists and where they have schizo types and weird people?

I can't resign myself. I would prefer a normal psycholohist/psychiatrist.

Janine, your comments?

C


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## kenc127 (Aug 10, 2004)

> It doesnt have to be, Ken, it can also be Borderline PD (BPD).


Do you mean Borderline Personality Disorder? If so don't BPD folks look for relational fulfillment from the narcissist? The person with NPD and the person with BPD are one and the same performing 2 different roles that use each other to to obtain emotional fulfillment. Both exhibit similar defense mechanisms that can cause DPDR. NPD is just the more obvious/typical example of narcissistic injury while BPD is not so obvious, or is the "lesser" of the 2 in terms of extremes. Both are forms of narcissism and both stem from some sort of trauma, be it emotional or physical.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2005)

The term "personality disorder" is purely subjective. Take several good psychiatrists and they will probably each disagree a bit on a given patient's exact diagnosis. PLEASE don't start obsessing about THIS now, loll...

I do agree with Ken, however, that most of us here seem to clearly have very similar personality types - and as I've said before, symptoms rarely come from NOwhere. Certain defense structures tend to produce the same kinds of defenses. That's just the logic that rises to the surface again and again in the study of mental illness.

Clearly, I've got a personality structured in narcissism - when younger, as Wendy points out, I was in the Borderline region, too. It all depends on the person's behaviors, feelings, patterns....personality disorders are ways of categorizing the constellation of symptoms that seem to revolve around certain KINDS of people.

Deeply depressed people (without dp, only depression) tend to have lots of trouble with anger. They tend to be passive and to turn their rage against themselves, rather than being able to manage it when felt against others. Does that make all those people "Passive/Avoidant personality types?" NOt necessarily, but it's often worth looking there for greater understanding.

Cynthia, CLEARLY you've got something going on in terms of why you obsess and your stubbornness (grin), and the overall patterns of thought and behavior that limit you, that cause you some problems in life. That is NOT horrible, it's just an area to work on to make your own life better.

Same for most of us.

But....the DANGER in any of these labels is that the person will use it as a weapon against themselves, or as a way of screaming that the doctors don't understand. Take what sounds right and work on it. Leave the rest.

The fact that we DON'T, lol..that instead, we have to fight and scream and lament about it to our own detriment is the real red flag to the underlying personality disturbance.

Love,
J


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

kenc127 said:


> Yes, our personality disorder is narcissism, and the associated narcissistic defenses cause the DP. Find a way to erode the need for narcissism, and DP will never bother you again.


What need for narcissism I should erode, as I don't have a faintest idea what you are talking about? :shock: Indeed I feel the diagnostic criteria of NPD pretty alien to me:



> According to the DSM IV, individuals with NPD showcase a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy.


It is possible that in some cases narcissism may be the reason behind DP/DR, but if anybody tries to say it is correct with everyone suffering from DP/DR, I feel the statement utterly ridiculous. I think the reason for my DR lies somewhere else, and I guess the icy wall of DR for me may be a way to protect myself from the world, which has proven to be unfair and unsafe in my past. However, though I feel the need to protect my innermost self, I don't feel any desperate need to be admired, nor I feel being particularly unempathetic. And I don't see the wishes of getting my studies finished, finding work afterwards, and getting a chance to move to a nice old wooden house in the countryside with my boyfriend in the far future in any way grandiose. I think they are just ordinary wishes for an ordinary person.

I'd like to know why you see narcissism as the only cause of DP, Ken? Could you explain more? :?: And, by the way - I don't see myself suffering from BPD either, as the diagnostic criteria of BPD seem to describe a considerably more emotionally disturbed person than I feel I am currently.

Sorry for the tone of my post, but sometimes I feel a bit puzzled why people seem to be so sure about the causes of DP, though they are possibly different for every person suffering from the phenomenon.


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## kenc127 (Aug 10, 2004)

> I'd like to know why you see narcissism as the only cause of DP, Ken?


Sure Ninnu. First of all I don't think it's the sole cause, but i do think it is responsible for most of the cases. The reason I believe so is because most of us here tend to be bent on self watching, including myself. By doing so we take on the assumption that our illness and our symptoms are larger than life, and there must be some huge reason behind our illness like brain damage or some horrible traumatic event or some genetic disadvantage. This illness seems to take on the same role everytime: "I feel like this, I feel like that, I'm going nuts, I'm having a break from reality, etc. all of the symptoms seem to be based around FEELINGS and SELF. Many of us become so absorbed into the oddness of our symptoms and what is happening to ME, that we can't take our eyes off of ourselves, even if we were given a million dollars to do so. We are the center of our symptom world, and obsessing about symptoms allows us to feel in control, and control is the primary goal of narcissism. And this is why I believe narcissism to be a key factor in this illness. This is just a THEORY. Not a law and not a judgement.

My apologies for coming across assertively and generally with my first reply, that was not my goal. Also my apologies for saying "our problem" not taking into account those individuals who may have this illness as a result of other circumstances. I probably had too much coffee when i typed the reply.

Also, the people I know who have healed from this illness worked on themselves in therapy, and worked on narcissistic aspects of themselves. They no longer suffer from this. The healing speaks for itself.

Ken


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2005)

there are too many fuckin causes for dp/dr.


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## JasonFar (Aug 13, 2004)

I think Ken is right but I think that BELOW is where the real issues are...

Anger at the world.
Hating everything.
Scared of people.
No self worth.
Unable to commit to responsibility.

Blahdity blah. Lots of cool stuff.

We aren't narcissistic because we simply are totally self-aware... I think we're narcissistic because we have this fake little mask of Self we wear in Reality when our real buried selves are the above things and others... And when we're in a state of breakdown or DP/dissociation, we obsess over it all because it doesn't make sense -- no sense of Self, but how could we, when it's buried deep in our psyches with a bunch of poo surrounding it.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2005)

It's interesting about the narcisism stuff. I guess that may as well be my reason for developing it, gaining it after a few years of chronic depression where I constantly condemned myself. Then I told myself I can't be half-bad and gained the disorder happily in depression's place. But then I had some religious experience soon after where I made it known to myself that I am worthless and only a lowely insignificant servant of God and the world around me. Yet I still had the disorder. It's rather like that now I suppose also, though there was a gap between then and now which I regained some narcissism. I care much more about others than I do myself, or at least relative to how I see the people around me blindly follow their own self interest constantly, and yet I still have this disorder. It's not so strong as most people describe for me. I have no panic attacks, I accept the detached perception and welcome the alternatives if available. But they never are. I hate defending myself by any of this and the question of it, but why do I still have dp if I don't even live life as much for myself as I do others? Perhaps it goes back to when I was a child and my siblings always dejected me, along with most other kids in my childhood, causing me to subconsciously seek vengence in a "I'll show them" one day mentality. If my dp is a result of this type of narcisism so deep-rooted, is it even possible to be rid of?


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2005)

Alright I'll admit, it probably is narcissism. But is there any way to fix narcissism with everything we've gathered about the world around us so far? I mean, he way I truthfully perceive the world is that it's full of too many "idiots" who don't look into what reality is all about enough. Truthfully, I'm full of... confusion toward the world and how I'm supposed to be a part of it with all that I've "realized" about it. And that comes from the part of myself which is my core understanding of things and core values system. I admit, I'm a narcissist, no matter how many people I meet, no one impresses me, I'm always able to tell myself "I could do that... if I put in the effort" and I tend to know that it's true. And when I first developed this disorder, I somehow thought I was meant to have it and was significant in the world for having it with all its perceptual advantages. I have no real intention to re-assimilate into the world of minds who would rather live carelessly than carefully. And because of that, DP persists, but I am not so incompatible with the world. I've learned how to act, how to look like I'm living, learned to enjoy genuine things and see past the masks others wear. I can look at the behavior of a person for a few minutes and nearly determine everything about them. I'm a narcissist, although speaking from the mask, I will say I care about people and do not wish to think such things as I do about them. But now I find out that DP has a name and other people have it. Of course we all have the same narcissistic personalities and all the other personality traits which belong to it. And honestly, I'm happy to know that this world has more "genuine" people such as myself. Many good leaders probably had DP, and more likely many evil leaders had it too, like Hitler. I actually walk around school and see straight into people who have DP and can single them out. In fact, before I knew DP existed, I named them "chosens" in my mind since I'm so goddamned narcissistic. But I'll live through a mask never knowing myself because my true self is someone I need to hide, someone who cares too much about himself to be socially viable. I want to help others, because it makes me feel good about myself and makes me feel like I'm doing the right thing. From the mask, it gives me the personality trait of someone who genuinely likes to help others, and that is a viable assimilation in my mind which allows me to live life well off enough. I even had to lie in the above post to say I don't have narcissism just to protect my unmasked self's ego. Now, I'm not sure how normal all this is with people who have DP. Perhaps I'm just the antichrist for it all.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2005)

Anger at the world. 
Hating everything. 
Scared of people. 
No self worth. 
Unable to commit to responsibility.

wow thats me right there


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2005)

muyashi i can pretty much relate to every single thing you said, almost identical to all my thoughts, I often think to myself i have been given this disorder from God, so that i can change the future, I often have thoughts of assasinating the president as crazy it sounds, I was almost convinced i had to do it but the better part of my mind says lets be realistic, lets get back to the norm, do you really want to die ? This is really wi3rd


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2005)

Saying all which I did helped to calm down my disorder and bring me back down to reality slightly. I've only done it twice before where I've condemned myself with all which I've said and that only made things worse because I then heard some ethereal and booming voice in my mind claiming to be God telling me things which would help me live a better life. He tells me to help others, he tells me to stop focusing on myself, he tells me to stop being so selfish and to put others before myself, and I do just that, for about two days before I stop. But at least those two days are absolutely worth living. Maybe I'll have to do that every single morning, but it probably won't help me get my feet back on the ground. DP is like floating an inch about the ground and never being able to touch it. DP is like putting on sunglasses and being unable to take them off.

But what is interesting is that DP probably harvests some rather capable thinktanks into leadership positions. DP makes you think you have some sort of destiny, some sort of claim to greatness, an ordained life to live. When I first got it, I thought, "okay where did "I" go... well I guess it's up to me now to live the rest of this person's life through. " It's like I'm not even living for myself anymore, I'm living for the self who isn't me but exists only through me, and because of it, I try to be successful in my life and take advantage of the motivation which comes with the responsibility of living in an alien body. In fact, I'm president of my entirely Class at school, and I have amibitions to be President of the United States one day and I know it's not impossible so I strive for it and attain qualities which would make me perfect for the job some day. And it's possibly because I don't think others are right for the job, or possibly because I'm a narcissist, but at least I feel I'm doing it for the me I never knew and not just the me who wants to gain success. Or so I think.

We who have DP, we must be horrible people, to want so much for ourselves who we do not even know any longer.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2005)

Napoleon probably had DP. Bismarck probably had DP. All the great, even if evil, leaders this world has produced, probably had DP. Because they were narcissistic enough in one way or another to get to where they did to do what they did. Regular people weren't meant to effectively manage and understand the world around them. I've taken a personality disorder test before and it showed that I was very low in every of the 8 possible disorders, meaning no disorders, and this is because I've molded myself away from every bad quality I could find in others. So perhaps DP is as close to sanity and order and normalicy as one may ever get to, other than nonexistence of course.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2005)

aren't we gettin ahead of ourselves


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2005)

Yeah, but we're narcissists, we're allowed to.


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## kenc127 (Aug 10, 2004)

> I often have thoughts of assasinating the president as crazy it sounds


Me too, because he's a flipping war hungry moron  You're no the only one lol. You mean George Dubya correct?


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2005)

yes thats who im talkin about, but i think it would be impossible


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

I'm a bit sceptical as to whether we have one or the other of these "personality disorders". Even if we did, I pretty much abhor the term. How exactly can something so individual as a personality be "disordered"?

I probably have some narcissistic tendencies, for instance, but I wouldn't say I "fit" the disorder. Under almost any personality type I can see certain aspects that might match me.

Perhaps the more defining trait for us is that we are actually trying to explain and understand DP by looking at our personalities in a logical manner, when, in many cases, it might defy this kind of investigation. We try to "make sense" of something that doesn't have to "make sense", and that seems to be a trait of many of us.



> Napoleon probably had DP. Bismarck probably had DP. All the great, even if evil, leaders this world has produced, probably had DP. Because they were narcissistic enough in one way or another to get to where they did to do what they did.


I doubt it, I really do.

It's tempting to try and make this illness feel like some good quality that "different", but somehow more interesting people, have. In reality that's just our own narcisissm coming through.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Actually I find this talk of narcissism being the cause of DP and seeing every person suffering from DP having narcissistic tendencies just utter bullsh*t, to be honest. At least I can't see my personality fitting into that category. Instead I see myself just like anybody else here in this world, but apart from the healthy non-DP'd people I lack of the sense of basic security and thus I've created the icy wall of DR to protect me.

I think my lack of feeling safe may have its origin in my early childhood, when my mother was alcoholic for a few years' time. During those painful years I learned not to trust anyone and rely only on myself, as I had to take care of my mother and littlebrother alone, cuz my father was constantly working abroad. Needless to say, that much responsibility and neglect as a 6-9 y/o child must leave emotional scars. I guess that sad period in my life is possibly the reason why I can't feel myself secure enough even now to be able to get rid of DR, as deep inside there is that little girl in me, who would need extra love and care, but who no longer can connect with other people cuz I'm a grown-up person now. At least this is how I see the causes of my DR. I can't see narcissim as any part of my personality and thus I consider any efforts of finding out if there would be some narcissistic tendencies causing my DR totally useless.

I also must admit that I lack of the constant self-monitoring many others here in this forum suffer from. I just live, and hardly think about this separating icy wall while taking part in daily activities, nor do I have any need to obsess about my thoughts and emotions. Indeed I can't even understand well, how does obsessive thinking feel like, as I have never experienced it. Only thing I yearn for is to feel safe enough so I could let go of DR someday. I wish by living and enjoying my everyday life and by self-therapy I would finally reach the point, where I could see the world around me more loving than threatening in order to be able to melt away this isolating icy wall of DR. I guess it really can be possible, but surely it will take lots of time and effort.

BTW Ken, thank you for taking the time to reply me, I understand now better what you meant. Thus this shedding of mine wasn't pointed to you... :wink:


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Monkeydust said:


> *Quote*: "Napoleon probably had DP. Bismarck probably had DP. All the great, even if evil, leaders this world has produced, probably had DP. Because they were narcissistic enough in one way or another to get to where they did to do what they did."
> 
> I doubt it, I really do.
> 
> It's tempting to try and make this illness feel like some good quality that "different", but somehow more interesting people, have. In reality that's just our own narcisissm coming through.


I agree. Actually I think the leading figures in this world most probably don't suffer from DP, as I can't see this disorder any motivating to that kind of purposes. But I believe leaders may very well be narcissistic, as why else they would have wanted the kind of position in the society they have obtained?


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2005)

Ninnu said:


> Monkeydust said:
> 
> 
> > *Quote*: "Napoleon probably had DP. Bismarck probably had DP. All the great, even if evil, leaders this world has produced, probably had DP. Because they were narcissistic enough in one way or another to get to where they did to do what they did."
> ...


But you know, Napoleon was very very narcissistic, and it's this extreme narcissism which may bring about DP. FDR was also described as the type of guy you'd want as your friend but you never really knew if you were considered his friend. DP in some cases does actually offer a leap of motivation by the feeling of ordained destiny and makes the person believe it is their responsibility as a people who is more aware of things than anyone else to take the leading positions. I'm an example of this, or soon shall be.

But as for the narcissism things, I realized, narcissism like we experience, it's ever-present in everyone, DP and non-DP alike. We just know more about our own willings. The problem is that slapping the label of narcissism on top of things attacks the false ego which makes us want to tell ourselves that we're perfect, and that can severly destroy it. Everyone is a narcissist, they act in their own interest, they betray others sometimes, they're capable of many societal atrocities which we would have too much shame to do, and they would hardly feel any of it. Humans are just narcissistic creatures, we live to survive, we live to be above others, or at least make it seem like that in our own heads. It's not just DP, it's everyone. I stumbled on that while trying to fathom myself without any narcissism last night. But narcissism is the building block of human nature.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Musashi - if I have understood it right, the concept narcissism means a pathological condition of "self-love". I wouldn't say everyone is narcissistic, as to be really, pathologically, narcissistic the condition includes several things that aren't built-in personality patterns in the human race on an average IMO (i.e. the lack of empathy, the need to be admired, thoughts of grandiosity). To love oneself and to act in one's own interest doesn't necessarily mean narcissism.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2005)

I knew this thread was going to push buttons, lol...

Okay. MY 2 narcissistic cents is that I do agree with Ken. Naturally NOTHING is absolute - there are all kinds of reasons for all kinds of symptoms. But certain personality types do cluster around certain defense structures - and when defense structures go haywire, they tend to produce the same kinds of symptoms. That is just simple Psych 101.

It's not that being narcissistic CAUSES dp - it's that the types of thinking and fears and mental gymnastics that folks with that personality type tend to create (based on the underlying personality problems, issues, things they deny, things that run them, things they believe, need to believe, etc.) THOSE ways of being are a ripe corn field for dissociative symptoms.

A HEALTHY narcissist, lol, won't have symptoms. Well,here I am. lol....it's useful to explore the underlying pathology (or underlying personality type/disorder) because it can really shine a light on where the most troublesome thinking might be (i.e., what might be sourcing the breakdowns?).....nobody has to turn into a different person to get well. We just need to maybe examine some of the "unspeakables' that we keep ourselves too busy to see.....takes the desperate quality out of living and thinking. When that happens, symptoms can begin to fade.

I know nobody really heard all that...lol....personality disorders - and esp. the Nar word push buttons!

In peace,
J


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2005)

also: VERy briefly - forget the DSM description and/or nearly anything you'd find in pop self-help. That is one very very specific and narrow type of narcissistic disorder. What I'm talking about (and I'm really positive what Ken is talking about) is that certain types of identity disturbances revovle around self-observation, chronic self-monitoring, intense fantasy worlds, daydreams, always watching self, controlling self-image, etc....you might be the NICEST person in the whole world - narcissistic DISTURBANCES do not mean self-adoring, they imply self-monitoring in a desperate and almost automatic kind of way.

Some of us lack an ability to FORGET self and immerse in experiences that people who are more secure with their own identity can do. More later, am at work, but just wanted to try to clarify a bit. MOST of what you read re: personality disorders is very very VERY limited.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Thanks for the clarification, Janine.  But I've got something to ask still, if you don't mind. I'll quote the part you wrote, which I have a question of:



JanineBaker said:


> What I'm talking about (and I'm really positive what Ken is talking about) is that certain types of identity disturbances revovle around self-observation, chronic self-monitoring, intense fantasy worlds, daydreams, always watching self, controlling self-image, etc....


But what if one doesn't suffer from those things you said? I could say I don't find any of those things, i.e. self-observation, daydreaming etc. disturbing my life. * I still feel DR 24/7, though it hardly bothers me anymore, as I have become used to it during all these years. Is it common that a person has DR but doesn't suffer from those things you listed above? I have started to doubt it may not be like that, at least what comes to my experience on this forum... :shock:

* About fantasy worlds, I enjoy creating one to my sci-fi comic project as a hobby though. But I guess it is not the same thing you meant in your post...?


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2005)

But we all agree that NOTHING is 100 per cent. All I am saying is that MANY people who have a certain personality type will also develop the same set of symptoms.

That is not saying it's true for every single person.

And you've already told us that you have MPD - alter personality self that came through during a psychotic break - that's VERY far off from what many people here have experienced.

And ALL I mean by introducing any of these concepts is that it can be USEFUL to get a handle on other aspects of self, and where one may have very rigid defenses set up (and always has)...areas where we need to feel special, or chosen....and the flip side, feeling like nothing at all. Those extremes, those interesting aspects of personality are helpful in learning more about oneself - and understanding where SOME of one's symptoms may have originated.

Again, it's NOT EVERYONE, lol......

Self-lovingly, 
J


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Thanks again, Janine.  About DR, DDNOS... Sometimes I feel a bit lonely regarding my psychological problems. When I come here, many people can relate to others, e.g. about self-monitoring, obsessive thinking etc. you mentioned in your previous post. And when I follow the DID mailing list, the people there have "complete" alter selves, who take part in everyday life of the body and can easily communicate with others. My experience of alters is much more vague, not at all that strong the other people there experience. So I feel always a bit out of place everywhere, when it comes to the dissociative experience of mine.

But I guess life is like that. It may be even impossible to find that kind of mirror in anybody else I may secrectly wish for to happen. Though sometimes I feel a bit out of place here, I think this is a good forum though, full of nice people. And that is important for me. Thanks for being here, everyone!


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