# The Buddhist LIE



## Abraxas (Apr 23, 2011)

"Buddhism is most famous today for everything it originally never taught" 
Dr. A. K. Coomaraswamy

I thought I was the only DP sufferer who was fooled by Buddhism. When I started having DP symptoms, it was clear to me that they were the result of a combination of Psychedelic drugs (mainly bad trips, and mainly experiences with Salvia Divinorum, LSD, and 2CI), and Eastern Religion. Non-ego religion. Self is BAD! Nirvana is true peace, and Nirvana is extinguishing of Self. So evertime I had feelings, every time i wanted to BE, there came good ol Buddha, whispering to my ears: that is Dukkha, that is suffering,. You will get lost in a cycle of reincarnations, forever. Let go of Self, embrace Anatta, not-self. Embrace the void. Well, F**K the VOID!

But at the time, i really trusted Buddha. Everything I read of him was so noble, so truthful, so logical too. It made sense. The four noble truths make sense. The noble eightfold path makes sense. But the three marks of existence..

Annica (impermanence) makes sense. Everything is in flux. Attachment to things might cause suffering. true.

Dukkha (un-ease, not-perfect) people take Dukkha to mean suffering. It is not. Sukkha is related to how a wheel from a cart rolls, when it rolls smoothly, its called Sukka, Easiness. Dukkha is the opposite. It just means, un-ease, not-perfect. ok, I can deal with imperfection, as attachment to impermanent things might stir the mind and cause anxiety, even at low, imperceptible levels.

But... Anatta. No-Self. And here is the big big LIE hidden behind modern Buddhism. Why?
If you look at the Suttras, and specially the Ancient ones (forget about crazy Mahayana 'Greater Vehicle', Trantric, Diamond, etc... even Therevada does not reflect Buddhas true original Teachings), you will find the word Anatta, mentioned several times. ALL OF WHICH ARE USED AS AN ADJECTIVE, NOT A NOUN. Buddha says that the 5-khandas are NOT-SELF, that is to say, that Body is Anatta, not Self, that mental formations are Anatta, not Self, etc. But in reference to what???? to Self. He is saying, THIS IS NOT YOU, THIS IS NOT SELF! The correct translation of Anatta is not NO-Self, it is not-Self, and it is used as an adjective to point out all those things that SELF is not, in a classical Vedic neti neti approach to God, to Self (Atman). Mystics approach God by denying those things that He is not! Modern Buddhism will have us beleive that everything in the Universe is causal and impersonal, and that in the end everything is empty, there is no-thing, and Nirvana is some kind of anihilationist, nihilist, pathetic goal for the depressive and suicidal. Modern Buddhism is no more than spiritual suicidal.. and the PERFECT OPIUM for people suffering DP. Oh look, i am on my way to Enlightenment! this is what monks train to achieve during lifetime of meditative practice. NO. YOU ARE ILL. YOU ARE SUFFERING. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING GOOD. and if monks really try to reach a DP state, then they must be f**king stupid to say the least. And excuse me for my tone, but i can not help getting angry when talking about this, as i have suffered first-hand the impact of Modern Buddhism.

So, what did the Historical Buddha say, as expounded in the earliest suttras, about Self/Soul? 
Buddha, among many things, stated:

Atta'sarana anan'n'asarana.--"Soul as a refuge with none other as refuge" DN 2.100 
"Atta' ca me so saranam gati ca" --"The Soul is the refuge that I have gone unto" 
Jatakapali 1441 Akkhakandam 
"Soul the refuge (Saran.am.attano)"-- DN 2.120 
Jataka-2 #1341 "tattha atta' va sarathi" ----"the Soul is Charioteer"

The Soul is also reffered as "Most dear, the Light, the only refuge" [DN 2.100, AN 4.97]

The only place in Suttra where the word NO-SOUL (Natthatta)is used, is in reference to Annihilationists/nihilists, which Buddha himself called them heretics, and had this to say:

"Those who deny the Soul (the nihilists/annihilationists) go to terrible hell, from darkness to darkness"[SN 1.96].

There is NEVER a NON-SOUL Doctrine, but a not-soul doctrine which points out those things Soul IS NOT!

I invite anyone WHO HAS BEEN ENTANGLED BY MODERN BUDDHISM to read the following articles. THOSE WHO KNOW NOTHING ABOUT BUDDHISM, DO NOT READ THIS, AS THIS WILL ADD POTENTIALLY HARMFUL INFORMATION THAT WILL ONLY HINDER YOUR RECOVERY. To those who read this articles, PLEASE, DO NOT GO ON TO READ ABOUT THIS SCHOLARS WORLD-VIEW, say NEOPLATONISM/EMANATIONISM, AS THIS WILL ONLY SUBSTITUTE YOUR DETRIMENTAL BUDDHIST BELIEF SYSTEM FOR ANOTHER EVEN MORE COMPLEX AND IMPOSSIBLE TO GRASP. READ ONLY TO DEFUSE/DEBUNK YOUR BUDDHIST BELIEFS WHICH ARE MAINTAINING YOU DERPERSONALIZATION. ONCE YOU ARE CONVINCED MODERN BUDDHISM IS INCORRECT, PLEASE STOP READING, AS IT HAS SERVED THE PURPOSE OF THIS POST. I AM TELLING YOU THIS OUT OF EXPERIENCE, I HAD ALSO TO STRUGGLE AGAINST EMANATIONIST VIEWS AFTER GETTING RID OF THE BUDDHIST PARASITE (WHICH IN ANY CASE IS MUCH WORSE, BUT STILL, ALL BELIEF SYSTEMS WHILE ON DP ARE PARASITES).

Where Buddhism Failed Miserably 
Or, the story of a successful failure
http://aryan-buddhism.blogspot.com/2008/02/where-buddhism-failed-miserably.html

The Palpable fear of the Soul by Modern Buddhism
http://aryan-buddhism.blogspot.com/2007/07/palpable-fear-of-soul-by-modern.html

NOTHINGISM (Natthika)
as Heresy in Buddhist Doctrine
http://aryan-buddhism.blogspot.com/2007/07/nothingism-natthika-as-heresy-in.html

WHAT THE SOUL-HATING "BUDDHISTS" DONT WANT YOU TO KNOW
http://aryan-buddhism.blogspot.com/2007/07/what-soul-hating-buddhists-dont-want.html

AGAIN, DO NOT, please, DO NOT READ ANY OTHER ARTICLE THAN THESE. If you would like to discuss this, email me, and i will do my best to guide you out of this mess.

May all beings find refuge in Self.

Love,

Abraxas


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## Felicity (Feb 7, 2011)

Buddhism is true in a fundamental sense, but it is not the way to happiness if that is your goal..

I think a better way to live life is just to accept what happens. If that includes your frustration and anger at Buddhism, then so be it, be angry, be pissed off, same with DP, get upset by it, get angry, really vent your disappointment because even an illusion can feel like reality.. that loss, though objectively untrue, is true in the sense that you are hurt by it. Denying your sense of grief is the worst thing you could do in my opinion. It means you'll never really get over it, because the mind works by processing whatever occurs in your life, NOT by avoiding or distracting yourself from it.

And maybe you know yourself better than any philosophy, any religion, maybe Buddhism and every other theory generated by someone else is in effect a dead end, and the answers, if there are any, must come from your own experiences and beliefs.

I think the mind we've been given is a gift, and the ego, the lower self, a useful vehicle. Rejecting it in favor of the absolute truth is actually exposing yourself to a reality which evolution, or God, whatever you believe, never intended for you to see. It's akin to pouring hot water on your hands just to understand in a visceral way that the water won't kill you.. only burn like hell.

Just my idle thoughts.


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

*I think the mind we've been given is a gift, and the ego, the lower self, a useful vehicle. Rejecting it in favor of the absolute truth is actually exposing yourself to a reality which evolution, or God, whatever you believe, never intended for you to see. It's akin to pouring hot water on your hands just to understand in a visceral way that the water won't kill you.. only burn like hell.*

Interesting observation (idle thoughts). It makes me think about different 'realities'. Most of us are squeamish to see what a surgeon does - but our inside anatomy is part of truth - it is just something we are rarely involved with. Each of us has our own world/reality. And it takes effort and learning to interface/harmonize with other peoples' feelings/perspectives/views.

People can get hung up about existence, free will, predestination, quantum randomness&#8230; and get stuck about it instead of living the gift of life. Of course for some their thinking has been knocked into this pattern from drug experience, trauma or whatever - so the trap gets tripped. And we must learn how to free ourselves from it. If the moment is painful or void, try to fill it with something positive (activity, friends, &#8230; even bunnies).

If reality is as Kermit below - so be it. Absolute reality is in the realm of God. We can only continue to learn - it is a journey.

If we don't enjoy life and the moment, it is a terrible loss. For "tomorrow is promised to no one", _Clint Eastwood_


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## Abraxas (Apr 23, 2011)

Hi Felicity and Visual Dude, thanks for sharing your thoughts, I really enjoyed reading your posts.

To be honest I dont think that the teachings expounded by Buddhism are fundamentally true. At least not what modern Buddhism teaches in place of the historical Buddha's word. Buddha did not write any scriptures. He did not also talk about metaphysics. He just said: there is suffering, and suffering is dealt with by following this path. His approach was practical, and did not want to go into the details of metaphysics. However, the few words and references he makes about metaphysics are very similar to Ancient Vedic Tradition, and very similar to the later Advaita Vedanta interpretation of Vedic texts, which by no means talk of No-Self (Anatta as modern Buddhist today claim). He talks of a Self (Atman) or Soul above all, in which one finds refuge and is gone unto in Nirvana. He says ,the citta (mind), gathers itself in the Light, in that which is True, in The Self, and ends the cycle of suffering, for it has found the source of its Light, the Self, the unmoved mover, the axis mundus, the center of the wheel.

Regardless of what Buddhist philosophy is or is supposed to mean, i believe that one has to have Self before one lets go of Self. People with DP have not made a conscious choice of giving away they're person (though i believe Self not to be equal to Person, but nevertheless), it has been taken away, robbed as it may. There is no free will in that, there is no conscious desicion, and that causes a lot of pain, which is real regardless of what is Absolutely real, as Felicity says. Its like being poor because they stole everything you had, or being poor because you made a conscious choice of living a humble life. That difference in Intention is all that matters. It was definitely not my intention to lose myself when i got DP, and it is still not my intention to let go of Self now, as i believe Self to be inmortal and as Absolute as anything else in Gods Mind. But that is my worldview (which is also not Buddist, as I believe in both Self and The One/Monad/God, Self having the choice of being independent of One or going back to One) and by no means it is True, it is just the result of personal experience, which as Buddha himself said, it is the only source of Wisdom. Only true wisdom gained by Experience can liberate one from suffering. Wisdom of what is real and what is not, and dealing away with what is not ,and treasuring that which is. When truth is hurled at lie, lie crumbles down and truth prevails. I genuinely believe all persons here suffering from DP will find their way out of this Desert, and into the light of Self. Time is an ilusion, truth is found at ones own pace, through acceptance of what is not, either in this life or next. I still believe though that the fastest you commit yourself to finding truth the faster you end suffering.

Good one with the kermit joke









Peace
Abraxas


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

There are problems with translation with some words especially Dukkha which when translated as suffering is perhaps a too negative translation, but the whole concept of no-self or not-self is difficult to fully grasp even for experienced Buddhists and the falling onto the side of nihilism where you feel you don't exist at all is one of the pitfalls good teachers can steer you away from, but if you read just bits from books and internet sites I see how easy it is to fall in that pit of nihilism. But Buddhism is called the middle way for a reason and nihilism is an extreme so it is not the middle way therefore it is not Buddhism.

I'm not sure how to equate a soul with the key concept of dependent origination which helps to define Buddhism as different from Hinduism, so im not sure im qualified to really argue this point at the moment. Right now i'm working more with the approach which regards to self as being yang to the yin non self, so being and non being are two sides of the same coin both equally important in the yin and yang balance, which then if you transcend leaves you with "no view" or "beginners mind".


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

double post


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## gill (Jul 1, 2010)

nm


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## PhuckDP (Dec 8, 2010)

Umm, here's the thing. Depersonalization that DP sufferers experience is in no way similar to the type of depersonalizaton that Buddhists advocate. Basically, the reason why DP suffers have DP is usually because their fight or flight response is constantly turned on. It wears the brain down, doesn't allow it to work at it's full capacity. I mean, with DP there's so much mess in our brain, we eventually give in and and start to dissociate. 
Whereas on the other hand, Buddhism depersonalization is something completely different. It's a state of complete bliss, oneness with the universe and all that surrounds you, living in the moment and so on. In Buddhism depersonalization, everything's clear to you, world opens up, everything makes sense, it's a path towards enlightment. Whereas when one suffers from the DP disorder, he's not himself but in a bad way. The mind of that person is so clogged and that person lacks empathy, feelings and with that emotional intelligence, social intelligence etc. That person can barely function. So it's a lot different. DP sufferers have a much lower capacity of thinking and functioning than their normal selves. Whereas Buddhism depersonalization enhances the person, really, intellectually, spiritually, emotionally...all around. So yeah, it is a great state to be in. DP as a disorder is hell though and it makes people shell of their normal selves, just a lot less capable than they normally are. So the two depersonalizations are actually completely opposite.


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## Abraxas (Apr 23, 2011)

spot on. DP is spiritual rock bottom. No way around it. I find it mind-boggling that there are people making claims about DP being enlightenment, even in this forum. They either dont know DP, or they are just in a sort of twisted denial. DP is suffering. Enlightenment is pure bliss, absolute freedom, absolute Knowing. DP is a state of fear, of confusion, of great pain. Having gone through it and out, I assure you it is more like Hell, and far, very far from an Enlightened state.

Peace
Abraxas


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## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Wow so you are bashing Buddhism because at first you misunderstood it and now understand it better yet still misunderstand or the fact that modern Buddhists as you call it dont understand Buddhism as it is suppose to be. What about me im a Buddhist and i understand it. If you want to bash Buddhism bring it, i will correct your false views on it. Buddhism is confusing it has many different techniques that are meant for people on different levels on the path. I made the mistake a decade ago of rejecting emotion which is a lower Buddhist method that is suppose to be for people who cant do that because they dont have that much control of their mind, looks like you did the same lulz. I ended up being emotionless because i became to good at it and normally i remain emotionless but now i can actually surge emotion where its like a surge of bliss, its like the opposite of crying yet i normally remain emotionless so as not to be affected by the outside world or the conditioned self.


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## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

"Gotama was a miserable failure." that site is biased and wrongly interprets Buddhism. They spell his name wrong for fucks sake, its Gautama.

Now a quote from you "DO NOT, please, DO NOT READ ANY OTHER ARTICLE THAN THESE." why because they bash Buddhism and have an incorrect view of Buddhism.

On that site it basically said Advaita is right Buddhism is wrong, Buddhism is Advaita. Read the book Advaita In Indian Philosophy. He understands Buddhism and describes how Sunyavada Buddhism, Yogacara Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta and Kashmir Shaivism are the same only explained differently.


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## Abraxas (Apr 23, 2011)

sunyata samsara said:


> "Gotama was a miserable failure." that site is biased and wrongly interprets Buddhism. They spell his name wrong for fucks sake, its Gautama.
> 
> Now a quote from you "DO NOT, please, DO NOT READ ANY OTHER ARTICLE THAN THESE." why because they bash Buddhism and have an incorrect view of Buddhism.
> 
> On that site it basically said Advaita is right Buddhism is wrong, Buddhism is Advaita. Read the book Advaita In Indian Philosophy. He understands Buddhism and describes how Sunyavada Buddhism, Yogacara Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta and Kashmir Shaivism are the same only explained differently.


Brother I do not wish to go into a philosophical/metaphysical discussion with you. I have my own wisdom gained by experience and my world-view is probably very different than yours, still i feel no need to impose my views on anyone. You seem to be yourself in spiritual doubt, as you come here and so angrily defend your belief system. Where is the emotionlesness you speak about?

About Buddhism. What the scholar who wrote those articles suggests, is not that Buddhism is wrong, but that Modern Buddhism is NOT what the Buddha taught. He suscribes to Ancient, Aryan Buddhism. Furthermore, he says Buddhism is not different to Vedic philosophy, that Buddha in fact said that he had 'rediscovered an ancient path', that is the Vedic path. we are both saying the same thing bro, that modern buddhism today is not what Buddha really taught. In my thread I write 'Buddhist' lie, because Buddhism is the name by which 'modern Buddhism' goes. And Aryan Buddhism is really not known. If the thread was addressed to you, I would have added the word modern. But this thread is clearly not for you, who have apparently advanced knowledge of what buddhism is or isnt.

Also, why do you think Buddha didnt write any scriptures, and encouraged oral transmission from Master to Disciple? Because he knew people would misinterpret such delicate information. Information is not knowledge, knowledge is not Wisdom. Only wisdom gets you to liberation. All i am trying to do here is try and help out people who have stumbled upon this subtle information and, given to their condition (DP), has proven detrimental to their spiritual growth. If you do not agree with this intention, then you are quite frankly a retard. People here do not need Buddhism. They need to be themselves again. Then, when healthy and out of free will, they can choose to suscribe to any religion, if they will. If you think DP is the perfect chance to get closer to Nirvana by extinguishing whats left of self, keep that 'advice' to yourself as it is quite SICK in my humble opinion.

All I was tryig to do here is inform people who are a bit lost on the so called Anatta doctrine which is simply non-existent and if you are really in the know as you claim to be you should nothing more than agree.

Brother, if your really do not want to not be 'tainted by the conditioning self and world', then why are you here in a forum, arguing with so much zest, even worse, taking pride in your 'knowledge' and taking an attitude of dis-respect for the 'ignorant'.

But well, may I also say, i personally believe you do not understand the mind of God, and while your annihilationist view on Self is acceptable (and I am sure you will reach Nirvana that way), your going back to the Monad is for me the way of cowards. Much more willpower is required to forge Self and approach the Unmoved Mover with complete free will and individuality. Annihilationism is viable, its really your choice, but if you choose to do so, please keep your suicidal thoughts out of this forum, here people want to be, here people are cultivating their will in order to forge and purify Self.

Peace,
Abraxas


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## Abraxas (Apr 23, 2011)

. About my quote. All I said so because continuing to read this scholar's articles would result in them being exposed to a new belief system (emanationism) that i believe will not be good for their DP, that it would be quite detrimental. You should know too, that spiritual information is quite subtle and not to be read at any stage of spiritual development.

again, i am finding it quite hard to see what is your intention here on the forum.


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## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Abraxas said:


> Brother I do not wish to go into a philosophical/metaphysical discussion with you. I have my own wisdom gained by experience and my world-view is probably very different than yours, still i feel no need to impose my views on anyone. You seem to be yourself in spiritual doubt, as you come here and so angrily defend your belief system. Where is the emotionlesness you speak about?
> 
> About Buddhism. What the scholar who wrote those articles suggests, is not that Buddhism is wrong, but that Modern Buddhism is NOT what the Buddha taught. He suscribes to Ancient, Aryan Buddhism. Furthermore, he says Buddhism is not different to Vedic philosophy, that Buddha in fact said that he had 'rediscovered an ancient path', that is the Vedic path. we are both saying the same thing bro, that modern buddhism today is not what Buddha really taught. In my thread I write 'Buddhist' lie, because Buddhism is the name by which 'modern Buddhism' goes. And Aryan Buddhism is really not known. If the thread was addressed to you, I would have added the word modern. But this thread is clearly not for you, who have apparently advanced knowledge of what buddhism is or isnt.
> 
> ...


I dont feel angry your original post made me smile and this post made me lol a few times.

"Anatta doctrine which is simply non-existent and if you are really in the know as you claim to be you should nothing more than agree." But no self is not non existence it is the doctrine of no self.

Buddhism doesnt believe in no Self they believe in no self there is a difference. The term Self is another word for ultimate reality and self has to do with ego our conditioned consciousness, unconditioned consciousness is Self. I dont have any suicidal thoughts the doctrine of no self is not nihilistic, its the middle path beyond extremes of views.


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## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Abraxas said:


> . About my quote. All I said so because continuing to read this scholar's articles would result in them being exposed to a new belief system (emanationism) that i believe will not be good for their DP, that it would be quite detrimental. You should know too, that spiritual information is quite subtle and not to be read at any stage of spiritual development.
> 
> again, i am finding it quite hard to see what is your intention here on the forum.


No intention i just like that theres a forum full of people like me.


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## Abraxas (Apr 23, 2011)

sunyata samsara said:


> I dont feel angry your original post made me smile and this post made me lol a few times.
> 
> "Anatta doctrine which is simply non-existent and if you are really in the know as you claim to be you should nothing more than agree." But no self is not non existence it is the doctrine of no self.
> 
> Buddhism doesnt believe in no Self they believe in no self there is a difference. The term Self is another word for ultimate reality and self has to do with ego our conditioned consciousness, unconditioned consciousness is Self. I dont have any suicidal thoughts the doctrine of no self is not nihilistic, its the middle path beyond extremes of views.


... i Said that the so called DOCTRINE OF ANATTA IS NON-EXISTENT, AKA, IT DOES NOT EXIST. Not that the doctrine of Anatta means non-existence. It is that doctrine which simply does not exist in True Buddhism. As Anatta is used in suttras as an adjective to point out to those things Soul is not, of course in reference to Soul/Self. This/these are not my Soul" (na me so atta'= anatta/anatman). A statement to which the words of Sankhara are perculiary apposite, "Whenever we deny something unreal, is it in reference to something real". It was not for the Buddha but for the nihilist (natthika) to deny the Soul! "Nihilists (natthiko) [those who deny the Soul] go to terrible hell"[SN 1.96]. The pali word for NO-SOUL is not Anatta, it is natthatta. Whenever this word is used in suttras, it is used to describe nihilist/annihilationist heresies. Read this now and lets end this discussion please.

NOTHINGISM (Natthika)

as Heresy in Buddhist Doctrine
copyright 2007 Aryasatvan

#2. natthatta'ti (literally "there is not/no[nattha]+atta'[Soul]" has only 5 occurrences (all at SN 4.400) anywhere in Sutta/Atthakatha (even the worthless Abhidhamma).Anatta' is not "no-Soul", but natthatta' which is deemed, by Gotama, to be Ucchedavada annihilationistic heresy.

Sutta states explicitly that natthatta' (no-Soul) = natthika (nihilism) = ucchedavada (Annihilationism). If you do hold the view that there is "no-Soul", you are a Natthika (nihilist); i.e. a Ucchedavadin.
#3. Petekopadesapali 40 Ucchedavada=Natthika

#4. SN 1.96 Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation "The nihilist&#8230;goes to terrible hell&#8230;from darkness to darkness". What Bhikkhu Bodhi failed to realize is that SN 4.400 Natthatta(no-Soul) is = Ucchedavada (Annihilationism) which is = natthika as per (petekopadesapali 40, etc.). If Bhikkhu Bodhi knew that these three were synonymous with eachother, he would certainly reconsider his translation of natthika as "nihilist".

#5 To hold the view that there is "no-Soul" (natthatta) is = to ucchedavada (SN 4.400) [Annihilationism] = natthika (nihilist).

#6. [SN 2.17] 'Nonbeing (asat, natthiti [views of either sabbamnatthi 'the all is ultimately not' (atomism), and sabbam puthuttan 'the all is merely composite (atoms)' [SN2.77] both are heresies of annihilationism])'".

And yes, I know Self/Soul is not self. All I was trying to do here is to try make people with DP stay away from very dangerous nihilistic and annihilationistic, atomistic/physicalistic world views which can be very detrimental for their condition. Soul exists. that is my message. What Soul is, let people find on their own, instead of imposing views that can be misleading as they are easy to misunderstand. This knowledge is only achieved by direct Gnosis, by direct experience, by wisdom resulting from experience. Talking about it is just plainly stupid and pointless. AND SPECIALLY DETRIMENTAL FOR PEOPLE WITH DP, so keep your f**king 'wisdom' to yourself.


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## Abraxas (Apr 23, 2011)

'


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## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Abraxas said:


> ... i Said that the so called DOCTRINE OF ANATTA IS NON-EXISTENT, AKA, IT DOES NOT EXIST. Not that the doctrine of Anatta means non-existence. It is that doctrine which simply does not exist in True Buddhism. As Anatta is used in suttras as an adjective to point out to those things Soul is not, of course in reference to Soul/Self. This/these are not my Soul" (na me so atta'= anatta/anatman). A statement to which the words of Sankhara are perculiary apposite, "Whenever we deny something unreal, is it in reference to something real". It was not for the Buddha but for the nihilist (natthika) to deny the Soul! "Nihilists (natthiko) [those who deny the Soul] go to terrible hell"[SN 1.96]. The pali word for NO-SOUL is not Anatta, it is natthatta. Whenever this word is used in suttras, it is used to describe nihilist/annihilationist heresies. Read this now and lets end this discussion please.
> 
> NOTHINGISM (Natthika)
> 
> ...


Buddha did not believe in a soul.
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/whatbudbeliev/115.htm

"keep your f**king 'wisdom' to yourself."
i refer you to this.


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## Abraxas (Apr 23, 2011)

sunyata samsara said:


> Buddha did not believe in a soul.
> http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/whatbudbeliev/115.htm
> 
> "keep your f**king 'wisdom' to yourself."
> i refer you to this.


hahaha that made me laugh out loud. Good to see you still have a good sense of humor behind your emotionlessnes.

About the link... wow. I honestly did not think you were such a retard. I am trying to say that what MODERN buddhism says about Buddha's beliefs/teachings is not true, and you send me a link to a MODERN buddhist website??? 
Did you even read the articles I posted? The scholar I am refering to is citing passages from original suttras as proof. Where are the cites in this link? who the f**k wrote this shit. From what I read it seems this man is not too bright.

'buddhanet.net' haha wow. stupidity knows no limits. again, you are full of surprises bro!









The Absurdity of Modern Buddhism

Therevada is Materialism, not True Buddhism

Now, this scholar is bright.

Anyway, lets stop citing others. Lets end this now: (muahahaaa)

Do you deny Subjectivity?

If your answer is no, do you accept that there is a Subject which exists beyond the flux of matter/mental formations, beyond Object?

Would you mind calling that Subject Soul? or Self?

how do you want to call it? lets call it The Happy Lettuce.

is that better for you?

are we through?


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Some of these concepts can be debated for an age so there is no point going over it here. I do agree that people here are better off generally steering clear of Buddhism though as it is about healing on a completely different level than what is needed for most of the people here, I have been into it for some years but I am working more now on healing my self rather than trying to find some other truth. If you really do want to look into Buddhism then you wont find much of a better source than books by the Dalia Lama who understands how to present it to the level of the western mind better than most, but overall you are better off looking at ways to heal your ego/self/soul/essence/inner child whatever you want to call it, rather than self transcendence.


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## medeuv (May 14, 2011)

Abraxas said:


> Well, F**K the VOID!


Hear, hear! I came face to face with the void through similar means (psychedelic drugs and eastern philosophies).


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## wittgenstein (Aug 7, 2011)

Has anyone ever become so engaged in an activity that they do not think about their self? Even the experience of time becomes minimalized!During sexual ecstasy has anyone ever thought "I AM having ecstasy, I think this experience corresponds to the concept pleasure?" In other words the no self of depersonalization is different then the no self of enlightenment. Depersonalization is premature enlightenment, like the feelings of a self conscious person trying to achieve orgasm.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

The basic message of Buddhism is that we cause ourselves more suffering by trying to avoid suffering.

The defences we use to try to escape pain cause us more pain in the end. This is true I think at least for me, so we need to turn around and try to face our suffering rather than avoid it, all the rest of Buddhism you can forget about. When Buddhists say the world is an illusion they don't mean it literally rather they just mean that all things are constantly changing, which is more or less what science says too.


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## aquabella (Sep 16, 2011)

Thank you DP community for conveying so many thoughts and feelings I have had with my own experience of DP/DR; I came to this community to reach out and try to convey a similar message. I assume this to be a place where I can feel safe, fully expressed and related to, amidst the occasional turmoil in my brain. I assume we should all have these gifts upon becoming a part of this community--most of all, if in a moment of a downward spiral.

For those effectively in the 'hell' of DP or in a moment of downward spiral, please consider acting 'as-if' with as much awareness as you can muster. Align yourself with any 'path' that works for you and be IN it, even Buddhism will work (even if neigh-sayers say it doesn't). The idea is to be functional in the NOW, which is all about process. Any 'path' on the road to DP recovery should be utilized simply as a tool to help you get to your goal (enlightenment is whole other process which comes AFTER the negative experience of DP). Clear the DP of its negative stigma and then you can move forward into something else.

The 'act-as-if' tool has helped me out quite a bunch, even diving into Buddhism for a moment. Acting 'as-if' is not a simple task to motivate into, but gets easier with practice. It is important to focus on process, as focussing on the goal will only cause you to spin further down the spiral. You don't want to find yourself stuck in an infinite loop of frustration.

Don't dwell on the perceived importance of whether you FEEL anything or not, acting 'as-if' you ARE safe, fully expressed and related to, in this moment, now, is what's important.

Acting 'as-if' could be a useful tool; and at the very least, help you to get through (the moment) by helping you to break the state of self-perpetuating negative indulgences (ie. abuse of self, others, sex and/or drugs). It's the whole principal of "commit the action and the mind will follow." Resisting the urge to check back in with your DP/DR and KEEP BRINGING YOURSELF BACK to acting 'as-if' can be a useful tool to help you through these most effed up of moments. This process is self-correcting in that: with diligence and positive commitment to the present moment, relief will come.

The whole idea of trying to commit our thoughts/minds (and not the action) to something is pretty redundant to us DP/DR, esp. when the thoughts become self-indulgent/self-destructive. I'd like to believe that we are all here to help ourselves and each other not just to be understanding of one another, but to challenge one another toward our best possible outcome - RECOVERY! I challenge you to take heart and act 'as-if' your best possible outcome WILL happen for you

I am willing to do almost anything to beat the negative obstacles of this DP/DR sucker, even it that means I must submit to it. And I have!

I admit that I DO have days that I'm unsure of going into a situation, but part of the task of being developmentally 'right' with myself is to act with assured-ness, anyway, AND DIVE INTO THE EXPERIENCE!! I find that I lose track of my DP within minutes and find that hours go by ACTUALLY enjoying myself. One of my favorite quotes by Joseph Campbell is "If you are falling, prepare to dive".

With the 'Act-as-if" concept in mind, here's something that could be well-aligned with your needs and principle; i use the idea of buddhism simply as an example. I wrote this for my new, not yet publicized, blog a while ago about developmental stages of development. 
------------------
There is a lot of misinformation and confusion about DP/DR and its possible relationship to spiritual and/or religious development. There are numerous developmental theories that have been created, identified with and practiced: psychological/cognitive, social/moral, and spirituality/religion. Most, if not all, of them describe and identify a stage of or state in development that epitomizes, even embodies, the DP/DR experience.

This post is strictly an unbiased look at these developmental stages and their states where DP/DR is present. I have done a lot of research on DP/DR in hopes to find relief from my own DP/DR struggles. I don't advocate, condone or align my self any one theory or philosophy, but have found some comfort and a more playful attitude toward reality discovering the similarities between them and the mythos within them all. The discovery of connection may well be what is helping me on my way to recovery.

To use an example of one of the such possible theories, I have chosen to contrast Depersonalization with relationship to Buddhist states and stages toward attaining enlightenment.

*States - Termed 'Jhana' in Buddhism - loosely translated, means: 
condition/conditions/conditioning, where you are "at" in mind and/or body--state of being, area of concentration, learning/training/, task or practice, perceived experience (non judgmental feelings/emotions), concentration, acceptance vs. resistance levels of a situation, meditation. Jhanas are neither good or bad and can be used as tools for self-reflection.

Different states (Jhanas) can be eased into or quickly 'triggered' in ANY stage and at any time. Jhanas are temporary - distortions in conceptual time and space; temporal momentum interruption - and unfixed, meaning more than one Jhana can be experienced at a time and more than one person can share the same state individually and/or with one another even if the internal/external conditions which triggered them are very different.

Where, when, how, and why a certain Jhana is experienced depends on where our awareness is concentrated: internal/external environment. The intensity of the Jhana largely depends on the level of ease vs. difficulty with and acceptance vs. resistance of the lessons being learned in the current Nana.

**Stages - Termed 'Nana' in Buddhism - loosely translated, means: 
'knowledge of', insight, conviction and wisdom. A Nana is a marking point or turning point of spiritual transition (or cognitive development). Once a stage (Nana) is completed it becomes embodied knowledge and you will not back slide into an earlier (or lower) stage.

Think: you 'know' how to ride a bike, tie your shoes, recite the alphabet - There is no longer a need to concentrate on or practice doing - you just DO it. There are approx. 16 Nanas -- Nanas 1 through 4
are the lower Nanas and are considered stages of Self 'awakening'/Knowledge of Being Self as Self and is the process of becoming aware of spirituality (the Divine) as we awaken to and gain 
knowledge of our identifications of Self. Whereas the highers Nanas, 5 through 15, are considered to be spiritually awakened stages - practitioners in these stages assert well-defined, working or functioning assumptions in a philosophy, opinion or spiritual belief and is the process of becoming spiritually 'enlightened'.

The long, sometimes difficult, even downright frustrating (this is a state/jhana) process of enlightenment ends at the completion of the 15th Nana where "Nirvana" is attained. The 16 Nana IS "enlightenment"; enlightenment is "IS-ness" embodied and is more of a perpetual state of being than it is a stage of development.

Here's two great links on the stages:

http://www.interactivebuddha.com/Nanas% ... ablep1.pdf
http://www.buddhanet.net/knowledg.htm

I'm going to make a bold statement...Depersonalization is NOT spiritual enlightenment! It is not even defined as a stage (Nana) of enlightenment. According to many sects of Buddhism, the initial 
experiences of the DP/DR state (jhana) are short in length (minutes to days/weeks) and sometimes fleeting; they begin to occur in the 2nd Nana (the stage of cause and effect); yet are still temporary. After the 2nd stage, when you have embodied the lesson of 'cause and effect' and learn to take personal responsibility for EVERYTHING in life that your 'self' creates, the 3rd Nana comes in to challenge that lesson with the Three Characteristics: impermanence, suffering,and no-self (very DP/DR, No?).

The 3rd nana is characterized by the words deconstruction and de-condition. The DP/DR moments are long (weeks, months years), seems like a permanent condition, as the moments are chronic and are not fleeting. In the 3rd Nana the DP/DR Jhana, too, is EXTREMELY dark, cryptic, and lonely--BUT WORSE, because there doesn't seem to be an end to it! But, IMHO, this is the lesson--Learning to 'let go' of your previous mental construct and its conditioning.

Up until this point all of what you "know" about the universe is your sensory input and has been polar in opposition (good/bad, right/wrong, black/white, male/female). With (the state of) DP/DR messing up your sensory input (emotions, feelings, sense of self, etc...) you are forced to learn to know the universe as it is in itself (for example: do you "know" the apple is sweet and juicy? No... but you are inclined to ASSUME it is).

Nothing is 'personal' in DP, so you are forced into learning how to "know" a thing without interpreting, judging, labeling, identifying or picking it apart; you simply see, touch, taste, smell, hear (and to some - intuit) without judgement and without emotion.

When you 'feel' neither good or bad about something or indifferent about it, you are at the beginning of passing through the 3rd Nana--this is the experience of non-duality (be mindful that indifference is NOT apathy; apathy is a negative state of feeling, is depression and NOT DP).

At the very base, this Nana teaches realignment with the deepest of instinct and sense recognition (gut feelings): away from/toward, repel/propel, repulse/impulse, safety/risk. This may be a lesson to learn to have more trust in or belief in our self from a physiological perspective (remember...in DP/DR emotions and feelings no longer exist; or seem to - this is psychological). These lessons start with 'self' and in progression extends to the universe upon entering into the 4th Nana.

This Nana is called the Arising and Passing Away of things (AP for short), as impermanence and fleeting experiences become more and more apparent in a 'factual' way rather than in its previously futile way. The build up to 'letting go' of the futility is the most difficult, frustrating and tumultuous to persevere in. It can take months to many years to pass through the 4th Nana and is surpassed in what is "the AP Event".

Perceived by many to be nearly impossible to get through and has been described as: like a nervous breakdown, psychotic break, drastic shift in consciousness, etc. This is also known as "The Dark Night of the Soul" (see St. John of the Cross, see below); many seekers who've passed through this point would encourage the dark night experience if they had only knew what it was.

According to Shinzen Young, "This phenomenon, within the Buddhist tradition, is sometimes referred to as 'falling into the Pit of the Void.' It entails an authentic and irreversible insight into Emptiness and No Self. What makes it problematic is that the person interprets it as a bad trip. Instead of being empowering and fulfilling, the way Buddhist literature claims it will be, it turns into the opposite. In a sense, it's Enlightenment's Evil Twin. This is serious but still manageable through intensive, perhaps daily, guidance under a competent and knowledgeable teacher. In some cases it takes months or even years to fully metabolize, but the results are almost always highly positive."

More from Shinzen Young explaining the dark night:
http://shinzenyoung.blogspot.com/2011/1 ... night.html

A great podcast (and transcript) describing the dark night:
http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2011/09/bg ... t-project/

In most sects of Buddhism, it is not custom to teach the stages of development, as higher stages are a complete mystery to those in lower stages of development and the path is slightly different for everyone. Enlightenment can NOT be a goal, but a journey to. You can 'know' where you've come from and have an idea of where your destination ends (in enlightenment), but you must carve your path IN THE MOMENT while in/on the journey. The lessons become knowledge at self reflection and many moments of introspection (or meditation)--you can not learn from a past moment if consumed with ideals of the future.

If you align with Buddhist philosophy, a negative experience of DP could very well be an inability to cope with emptiness, non-duality, and no-self introduced at the beginning of the 3rd Nana. It could also be that you are lost and in the 'thicke' of the dark night at the end of the 4th Nana. The experience will only gets worse if not dealt with an air of knowing that: THIS, TOO, SHALL PASS!! It is much easier to navigate the dark night with a knowledgeable mentor, coach or friend.

With some relief and clarity on the other side of the AP Event and the dark night, the letting go of [email protected]#$% enables the 'Stream Winner'(one who surpasses these seemingly negative events) is now welcomed, or pulled into, the stream; entering into the natural and REAL 'flow' of life. This is "stream entry" at the 5th Nana and is considered in Buddhism to be the first (real) stage toward spiritual enlightenment and often mistaken for enlightenment in itself.

At this point, a Buddhist practitioner will cease to reincarnate into lower life forms (plants/animals) and will reincarnate only into human form, so the divine spirit may continue it's journey to Nirvana. From this point, a common experience is the recognition that 'self' and spirit are Divine and experiences of 'one-ness' with ALL things (even non-existence) is persistent. It is estimated that only a small percentage of the worlds population even get this far, let alone any farther (at least in this life-according to reincarnation).

From stages 3 to 5, DP/DR is a common state. Some pass through these stages in months and others it may take decades. What is important, is just to know that DP/DR is a 'state of being'. The sooner we let go of what was and stop being nostalgic for our 'conditional' past, the sooner we can embrace and even indulge in what IS.

Because polarity in constructs are deconstructed in later stages, those who claim any 'path' (Buddhism or any other developmental growth path) as evil or wrong is still, quite possibly, struggling with passing the 2nd or dealing with the 3rd Nana (this is where most people get stuck). In later stages, judgement and polarity become irrelevant in self dialogue.

If Buddhism is 'your thing', I can not stress this enough --- It is IMPORTANT to have a guide, prior path walker, teacher (master), who knows his/her stuff and can effectively communicate the 'path' to you and help you to positively (or non-judgmentally) interpret the meaning within your journey (this is where the Theory of Positive Integration by Kazimierz Dąbrowski was really helpful--see below). Don't dismiss anything all willy-nilly without asking the questions: who? what? when? where? why? and most importantly HOW--ie. How might this this path (course of action) affect me? How do these states/stages affect me/others? How do I get through the hard parts? How do I reach out when I need help?

If Buddhism doesn't work for you....fine...move on! Stop lingering on what doesn't work and get to finding something that does. 1) Find a path (developmental theory) that makes sense to you and act-as-if you KNOW where you are in its' stages. 2) Align yourself with that path and work it as long as it works for you. 3) Move forward on the path when the lesson/s have been revealed to you (when you KNOW something). 4) Find the connections that exist in ALL of it. 5) Stay on the path as long as it makes sense, otherwise...MOVE ON to another theory.

Other theoretical stages of growth to consider:

**St. John of the Cross
"Dark Night of the Soul" (Spanish: La noche oscura del alma) is the title of a poem written by 16th-century Spanish poet and Roman Catholic mystic Saint John of the Cross.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_night_of_the_soul

His poem narrates the journey of the soul from its bodily home to its union with God. The journey occurs during the night, which represents the hardships and difficulties the soul meets in detachment from the world and reaching the light of the union with the Creator. There are 
several steps in this night, which are related in successive stanzas. The main idea of the poem can be seen as the painful experience that people endure as they seek to grow in spiritual maturity and union with God. The poem is divided into two books that reflect the two phases of the dark night. The first is a purification of the senses. The second and more intense of the two stages is that of the purification of the spirit, which is the less common of the two. 'Dark Night of the Soul' also describes the ten steps on the ladder of mystical love, which was previously described by Saint Thomas Aquinas and also in part by Aristotle.

**Kazimierz Dąbrowski
Theory of Positive Disintegration (TPD) - Theoretical framework of personality development which views psychological tension and anxiety as necessary for growth. These "disintegrative" processes are therefore seen as "positive," whereas people who fail to go through positive disintegration may remain for their entire lives in a state of "primary integration." Advancing into disintegration and into the higher levels of development is predicated on having developmental potential, including overexcitabilities and above-average reactions to stimuli.
2.1 Level I: Primary Integration
2.2 Level II: Unilevel Disintegration
2.3 Level III: Spontaneous Multilevel Disintegration
2.4 Level IV: Directed Multilevel Disintegration
2.5 Level V: Secondary Integration

FOR MORE ON POSITIVE DISINTIGRATION:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_ ... ntegration

**Wittenberg
identifies five metaphysic characteristics
1. A self image crisis, the person alternates between responding to superego demands (parental/authority) and adhering to one's ego- ideal.
2. Brief states of depersonalization, a person experiences a loss of identity. Accompanied by series of disembodiment, isolation and estrangement.
3. End of role playing. Reality sets in. Often accompanied by depression.
4. Awareness of time continuity. The sense of time passage become more acute. It includes developing the ability to allocate and utilize time in one's activities, plans or defenses.
5. Search for a partner. the young adult chooses a love object for 'permanent affiliation.'

**Erik Erikson 
Devoted his research to defining the eight stages of life. Young adulthood, according to this model, falls in the sixth stage, "intimacy vs. isolation." The developing person up until that time has been 
forming his identity. There is a lack of feeling of self- sameness over time, which is important for the sense of identity, is fractured at many points of development. The fragmentation of the sense of self is common during the acute stages like stage 6. This stage can only occur after the person has successfully completed the other 5 stages and often, chronology of age is not the most important consideration-maturity is.

**Robert White 
Is an important theorist who did extensive clinical research with young adults. He identifies five "growth trends" of young adult development: 
(1) stabilizing of ego identity or feeling confident within the newly found identity and not as apt to succumb to outside pressures
(2) freeing of personal relationships in terms of dealing with problems in the "present," they are thus able to become more sensitive to another person because they are less tied with their personal history
(3) deepening of interests and the enjoyment of life which shapes a person over time and is "tied to both competence and commitment
(4) humanizing of values distinguishing "between abstract morality of adolescence and the more functional morality of young adulthood" 
(5) expansion of caring the stage of the "growth trend" 
This theory is closely related to Erikson's idea of "generativity"

**Carl Jung
Recommends getting in touch with ones 'Anima/Animus' (alternate gender identity) as much as possible. Otherwise depersonalization, heightened anxiety, tension, and agitation can take over. If not dealt with correctly, the Shadow self will have difficulty in reconciling itself with the world. Introverted types are more adversely affected and would benefit most from psychotherapy, as they are more likely to repress than express.

Others developmental stages to look up:

Maslow's hierarchy of needs
Ken Wilber on development of self
Kohlberg's stages of moral development
Loevinger's stages of ego development
Piaget's theory of cognitive development
Neo-Piagetian theories of cognitive development
Psychosexual development
Model of Hierarchical Complexity
Sociocultural evolution (cultural development)
Fowler's stages of faith development
Stages of Team development
Spiral Dynamics social growth development
"Mystical Love" described by Saint Thomas Aquinas (also in part by Aristotle)
Freud - oral,anal, phallic - growth related to sexual instinct
More...More...More...Just look!!!

Sending explosive potential joy...

aquabella is on tw @lonidoddi

******Questions, comments and clarifications welcome*******

Peace and all that jazz...


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2012)

Greetings, it´s an old discussion but I can´t resist giving my limited opinion on the matters you address.

I too became interested in Buddhism due to psychedelics and I have read some books and articles. I still cannot call myself a Buddhist but it´s ideas have certainly told me something useful.

First, I agree that old Buddhism may have been watered down and misunderstood into the modern Buddhism we find in the West today. Buddhism has not been very known until the sixties with the Dharma-bums, spiritual seekers and of course Timothy Leary´s "Psychedelic Experience". Buddhism has evolved through 2500 years and have developed into various forms and sects and some of these methods may be hard to swallow for a Westerner.

The doctrine of no-self does´nt tell you to annihilate your Self (or you have no personality or you are an illusion)! It simply tells you that there is no ever-lasting, intrinsic core-of-self in your psycho-physical makeup that can be called a permanent self/soul. It´s nothing mysterious about this other than teaching you to try to let go of your attachment to your body/mind and seeing that you may be mistaken about you being a solid entity that in turn can make you become scared of death and even afraid to "lose yourself" and keeping worrying around in the hustle-and-bustle of life itself.

Nirvana is not the extinguishing of Self, it´s the end of human suffering, big and small. Nirvana is poorly understood, and you can seek out any article on the internet and noone will tell the real meaning of it, other than that it´s the highest achievement of a human; no suffering, bliss, perfect compassion, no delusions and what not! That´s another debate...

Back to your original gripe: Remember, Buddhism DOES believe in an "inner body" living inside your physical body! This is described in many scriptures. You can very well equate this inner body with the Western notion of a soul. The difference is that Buddhism says that this "soul" is impermanent which you mentioned. This doctrine teaches us that we should not hold on to neither life or death but consider our fleeting lives as precious gifts that give us the chance to steadily perfect ourselves through our life-experience which is unlimited in it´s possibilities!

Because the Self (soul) is impermanent, there follows the notion that there is no supreme being (God) either and I guess this is the biggest problem for westerners. Let´s not get into a quarrel about this but what it means is that if there is no inner permanent core, there cannot be any permanent God that is the saviour of your soul. Then again, karma teaches that we are all responsible for what we do and this should be only a fair credit to an adult that does´nt blame his parents for his misfortune anymore. The notion of rebirth is also important here, because when there is no permanence to your soul and permanent God, it´s perfectly reasonable that your "soul" will "morph" into another realm and being after death, rather than be sent to eternal heaven or hell. Anyway, Buddhist teachings are very much interwoven and if you take a closer look, the different doctrines hang together and cannot be understood separately or else they would just seem like philosophical ramblings.

OK, before I get into another monotheism vs. Buddhism debate I will just say that I don´t meditate, I don´t pray or recite chants. All I´m saying is that Buddhist ideas make perfect sense to me and it´s ideas are quite life-affirming to me in this universe, rather than being negative and pessimistic.

I have read the thread but I could´nt really see where the problem lies but I hope I made some sense to you. This is my limited understanding and I don´t even consider myself religious. Good luck!


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