# Sometimes I want a "higher power"



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

These days, either when I get a scare about anything, when friends get older, even die, as I see myself getting older, I wish I had clear faith in "something higher."

For me it doesn't mean embracing any religion (ritual) necessarily, except Mindfulness, and I don't have a sense of the "spiritual" say as in Christ, Allah, Yaweh, etc., etc.

But I do see some logic in wanting to let go of MY "need to control". I think this is what the 12 Step Programs are all about. Not necessarily embracing a particular "God", but "a higher power" as you wish to conceive of it ... the matter in the universe we may return to, etc. as something "bigger than we are" and that we "release" our concerns to that.

As they say, "there are no atheists in foxholes" and I have said, recently, in anger, "God why did you do this to me?" though I was raised with no spirituality or religion. This "God" is something I curse.

I don't know, just musing on my current misery I guess.

And damnit Martin, there is such a thing as an agonistic. I DON'T KNOW how we got here. I believe in evolution, I'm very darwinist, scientific method in my POV, but I have never ruled out some "supreme power" in the universe. That supreme power would not answer my questions, but I don't know if it exists.

I also am agnostic about DP/DR. Nature/Nurture/Nature/Nurture. One day we will understand, but maybe we won't.

I think a need for spirituality and ritual is in part "programmed" into us. We see it in pathology. If we see it in pathology, it is in the brain. Perhaps it is an adaptation.

For that reason alone, for the reason that it exists everywhere, we can't dismiss it as an aberration. We DON'T fully understand it. I think at minimum it is something of a comforting mechanism, and indeed a sort of primitive "tribalism" that sadly has gone haywire in modern society.

It is ironic that different faiths attack each other, yet this is not uncommon, never has been. We all want to be part of our "little tribes", and that's rough in a global world.

D


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## californian (Jul 24, 2006)

great post, dreamer. it was very real, honest, authentic.

keep asking the right questions, as you are doing. as i said in another post somewhere, we are ALL to some degree or another, agnostic. but that does not mean that we cannot move towards knowledge through faith.

i know you feel like no answers have been provided for your questions. i think this is because we still want to think of God as this guy up in the sky who should say something in a loud audible voice. of course, if we heard that voice, how would we know that we weren't just schizophrenic?

but looking over your post, i'd say it looks as though you ARE finding some answers to your questions. the answers often come in forms that we don't even realize as answers until we become sensitive to how to see them as such...


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

I agree with Californian - God isn't some guy up in the sky who will speak to you and tell you what to do. If God did that he would be diminishing your personal power.

The truth is that the universe speaks to you every day, its just that you don't know how to listen.

There's no such thing as coincidence, no such thing as random chance and none of the thoughts you have are bad or wrong. If you follow your own intuition you will find your own answers. Instead of asking God to answer your questions, why not ask yourself?

Everything you need is right inside of you right now


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## The_Shadow (Sep 15, 2006)

Ironically, BECAUSE of my DP I believe in a higher power. I got to the point awhile back where things are so bad that the only thing that keeps me going is faith. Because of that, I reembraced spirituality. I got myself stuck in the dark valley...now the only thing that I can do is trust God that He will lead me out of it.


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## californian (Jul 24, 2006)

The_Shadow said:


> Ironically, BECAUSE of my DP I believe in a higher power. I got to the point awhile back where things are so bad that the only thing that keeps me going is faith. Because of that, I reembraced spirituality. I got myself stuck in the dark valley...now the only thing that I can do is trust God that He will lead me out of it.


right on, shadow! DP and spirituality have functioned very similarly for me. keep sharing your thoughts on spirituality and DP.


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## Epiphany (Apr 28, 2006)

I can relate very well to this Dreamer...I consider myself agnostic and not aethist. I too have a sense of a "higher power/force" but cannot bring myself to call it God or have any faith in any religion that has yet been presented to me. I know only one thing...that our human selves do not know, can not know and will never know the answers. Perhaps we don't even ask the right questions. I don't really want to go into my theories about what I DO believe but I suppose it could be summed up with "collective consciousness".

I would consider myself spiritual but not religious and I agree with what both Cal and Cecil have said about following your own intuition and that the universe speaks to us everyday but most of the time we don't know how to listen. Truthfully, I have been frightened in the past by some of the things I have felt / touched on when I have tried to open up to certain "spiritual" avenues that present themselves to me but I am trying to listen to my inner self more (without touching on too much of the other stuff).



> but that does not mean that we cannot move towards knowledge through faith.


Somehow Cal, though I'd like believe it, I just can't swallow this. These are the kind of statements that make it so hard for me to have faith in religion / god etc. I can't see how faith can move us towards knowledge. Faith can only move us toward "knowing" something that may or may not be true. I think faith can give us an ability to believe in something without the complications of thinking it may not be true...which does appeal to me, but without the answers I could never claim to have that kind of knowledge. 
So I guess I have now begun to resign myself to the fact that I will never be able to have a faith in anything other than instinct and gut feeling. I can live with that. My beliefs, when said out loud, wouldn't sound any more convincing to anyone than a lot of religious beliefs do to me. I would find it difficult to persuade anyone that my beliefs have substance as I cannot be sure that they are even close to the truth...all I have to base them on are my own feelings and senses.

Anyway...I guess what I am trying to say is each to their own...we all have to find our own answers, no matter what we do or don't agree with...we are all as right as each other as the real answers can never be known.

OK...I done now. :roll:


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> And damnit Martin, there is such a thing as an agonistic


Wow, I managed to start a row without even being here. 8) Well, we'll agree to disagree Dreamer. As always.



> I DON'T KNOW how we got here


Does it matter? We're here, so let's get on with it.


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## californian (Jul 24, 2006)

Epiphany said:


> I know only one thing...that our human selves do not know, can not know and will never know the answers. Perhaps we don't even ask the right questions.


if by "know" you mean knowledge of objective facts, the kind of knowledge that the Enlightenment thought was possible, then you are absolutely right. there is no objective reality that can be known by human beings, there is always doubt. there is always another way to explain sense experiences and the phenomona and emotions we encounter. and it is quite often true that we don't ask the right questions at all.

so i agree with you that we can't know anything in this sense, and i'm sorry if you thought that i was saying that through faith we can know things in this sense...i most certainly am not saying that.



Epiphany said:


> Truthfully, I have been frightened in the past by some of the things I have felt / touched on when I have tried to open up to certain "spiritual" avenues that present themselves to me but I am trying to listen to my inner self more (without touching on too much of the other stuff).


please explain if you are so inclined. i'm not sure whether you mean that formal religious opportunities presented themselves and they scared you, or that in your own spiritual explorations you felt something like fear. or maybe i'm missing your point altogether...but i find it interesting.



Epiphany said:


> Somehow Cal, though I'd like believe it, I just can't swallow this. These are the kind of statements that make it so hard for me to have faith in religion / god etc. I can't see how faith can move us towards knowledge. Faith can only move us toward "knowing" something that may or may not be true. I think faith can give us an ability to believe in something without the complications of thinking it may not be true...which does appeal to me, but without the answers I could never claim to have that kind of knowledge.


as i said above, nothing can move us towards objective knowledge...it simply isn't possible. if we pursue objective knowledge the one thing that we will come up with is scepticism of the possibility of knowing anything. DP sufferers know this as well as or better than anyone.

what we do have the ability to do is make inquiry and understand how we relate to the world, others, God, etc, and find truth in that very act of inquiry and reflection. and any sort of inquiry is only possible if one starts with an act of trust (faith) in something. as you said, you have faith or trust in your feelings, gut instincts, and senses. this allows you to find truth in the way you relate to yourself, fellow humanbeings, the universe, and this force or collective consciousness that you have some sense of.

a scientist puts his faith (trust) in human senses, in observation, in trial and error, in repeatability, and so on...in short, he puts his faith in the scientific method. this allows him to describe the truth of how things appear to operate from his point of view. in the end, he has no idea how these things appear to operate to a cat, or a monkey, or a higher intelligence to ours (if that exists). he only knows how it appears to him, and how it appears to appear to other human beings. this, however, is not insignificant. if he didn't put his trust in the scientific method, he wouldn't even be able to understand/describe how thing operate.

this brings me to my faith in Christ. the apostles proclaimed that there was this man Jesus who was crucified and rose again from the dead. they interpreted him according to the Hebrew Scriptures and Judaism they were raised in. they reported his life, deeds, and teachings in light of this interpretation. i can choose to put trust in this with my life, or i can choose to not do so. it really has nothing to do with whether or not it is objectively true, because, as we have already agreed, this is not something that is possible for a human being.

what i can do is trust in how Christ teaches and demonstrates how to live in the Gospels. THIS is having faith in Him. in this light, i will go so far as to say that you can even question whether or not he existed as a human being and *still have faith in him*. that will sound bizarre, i'm sure, and probably scandalous to some of my fellow christians, but allow me to explain.

a few years back, i had come to a place where i really had no faith whatsoever in Christ or Christianity anymore. i was also at a place where i was questioning what to do with my life. so i decided to give it one last hurrah--i said to myself, you are never going to KNOW anything for certain, so go all out with DOING what Christ says and following his teachings, and following HIM. so i did, i poured every ounce of my strength into it. at the same time, i didn't believe in the stories of the bible being literal, i was skeptical of miracles, and i wasn't even sure if Jesus had been a real person. but you know what i found by doing so? immeasurable peace, love, joy, patience, kindness, gentleness and self-control. i was filled with vitality, with power to live life in an authentic way. and i was filled with the grace and power to communicate that to others. i came to KNOW the truth of Christianity.

and along that road, i later came to believe in the miraculous (because i witnessed miracles), and came to trust in the historical evidence that points to Jesus having been a real person. but miracles and a "historical" Jesus are not where the truth of Christianity resides. it resides in its ability to transform human existence into something glorious, something vital, something powerful. Hebrews chapters 11 and 12 make this point abundantly clear (for any of those wondering where there is biblical evidence for what i am saying).



Epiphany said:


> So I guess I have now begun to resign myself to the fact that I will never be able to have a faith in anything other than instinct and gut feeling. I can live with that.


if faith is defined properly as above, you can have faith in whatever you choose to.



Epiphany said:


> Anyway...I guess what I am trying to say is each to their own...we all have to find our own answers, no matter what we do or don't agree with...we are all as right as each other as the real answers can never be known.


except that some people know themselves better than others. some live with more vitality than others. in the end, we must live these things out. it is in the ability to transform human life that any religious or philosophical outlook has its significance. i happen to have the conviction that one particular way of approaching the problem of human existence is better than the others...but each person has to find that out for him or herself... :wink:


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## Epiphany (Apr 28, 2006)

Thanks Cal for your candid and detailed response. I hope you did not take offence to what I posted...I respect your perspective on these matters and enjoy the way your posts are thoughtfully written and non-preachy.

For some reason your posts in this section sometimes trigger a question or response from me that I feel comfortable enough to post my thoughts to (I'm sure HS is probably rolling his eyes at me right now as his posts in here would quite often result in me throwing odd questions or responses back at him).

My intention is not to mock or appear condescending...actually I'm not really sure what my intention is in this section but I know it isn't either of these. I have no true idea why I still post in here because I often inflame rather than put forth anything truly insightful. Odd really as nothing I read in here changes my views...I'm not even really looking for answers anymore (regarding religion) so perhaps it's out of habit or just curiosity.

I know your statement wasn't meant to be taken so literally, so why did I take it that way? I have no idea, but thankyou anyway for taking the time to clarify it.



> please explain if you are so inclined. i'm not sure whether you mean that formal religious opportunities presented themselves and they scared you, or that in your own spiritual explorations you felt something like fear. or maybe i'm missing your point altogether...but i find it interesting.


I was a little shady here...not religious opportunities no. More the kind of things that go bump in the night. Psychic happenings, connections/contact/occurances/coincidences(?) that cannot be explained by myself or science (or maybe they can...all in my head?). Things that frighten me because I don't understand them. There is a line from a Pete Murray song that often runs through my head when I think of this fear I have..."Don't be scared of what you cannot see, you're only fear is possibility"...yep, and I am. My Mum was very "connected" in the ways above (not by choice) and I knew she didn't like to delve into it for the same reasons. I have at times thought to pursue these things instead of block them out and see where they lead (perhaps right back into my own head) but it seems much safer to dismiss them as my Mum always did as gut feelings and not dwell on the why/how. She just "knew" because she "knew"...end of story. I won't bother with examples or by trying to explain specifics because there are too many and I honestly don't understand the specifics...it is difficult being a sceptic of these things and believing them at the same time. :wink:

Anyway...blah blah blah...I do go on.


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## californian (Jul 24, 2006)

Epiphany said:


> Thanks Cal for your candid and detailed response. I hope you did not take offence to what I posted...I respect your perspective on these matters and enjoy the way your posts are thoughtfully written and non-preachy.


thanks. i did not take any offense. when i come back with a lengthy response, it's just because i'm trying to make my point clear. i always appreciate your thoughts and questions as well.



Epiphany said:


> I have no true idea why I still post in here because I often inflame rather than put forth anything truly insightful. Odd really as nothing I read in here changes my views...I'm not even really looking for answers anymore (regarding religion) so perhaps it's out of habit or just curiosity.


as Pascal said (and as I've quoted before): the heart has reasons which reason cannot understand.



Epiphany said:


> Psychic happenings, connections/contact/occurances/coincidences(?) that cannot be explained by myself or science (or maybe they can...all in my head?).


i think it's worth pointing out here that science cannot EXPLAIN anything. all it does is DESCRIBE. it can answer HOW things happen--it gives us nothing as to WHY.



Epiphany said:


> Things that frighten me because I don't understand them. There is a line from a Pete Murray song that often runs through my head when I think of this fear I have..."Don't be scared of what you cannot see, you're only fear is possibility"...yep, and I am. My Mum was very "connected" in the ways above (not by choice) and I knew she didn't like to delve into it for the same reasons. I have at times thought to pursue these things instead of block them out and see where they lead (perhaps right back into my own head) but it seems much safer to dismiss them as my Mum always did as gut feelings and not dwell on the why/how. She just "knew" because she "knew"...end of story. I won't bother with examples or by trying to explain specifics because there are too many and I honestly don't understand the specifics...it is difficult being a sceptic of these things and believing them at the same time. :wink:


there are certainly "more things in heaven and on earth than are dreamt of in our philosophies."

when we consider that there are many living organisms that do not possess the five senses that we do, and/or do not possess them in exactly the same way as we do, it fills us with a sense of wonder at how limited our perception of the world around us really is. if there are many things we can sense/perceive that other creatures can't, what makes us so sure that we aren't unable to perceive certain things? or is it not also possible that we have certain senses that are nascent, but not fully evolved? or that we have senses that it takes quite a bit of practice to be able to utilize?


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

californian said:


> if by "know" you mean knowledge of objective facts, the kind of knowledge that the Enlightenment thought was possible, then you are absolutely right. there is no objective reality that can be known by human beings, there is always doubt. there is always another way to explain sense experiences and the phenomona and emotions we encounter. and it is quite often true that we don't ask the right questions at all.
> 
> ....
> 
> what we do have the ability to do is make inquiry and understand how we relate to the world, others, God, etc, and find truth in that very act of inquiry and reflection. and any sort of inquiry is only possible if one starts with an act of trust (faith) in something. as you said, you have faith or trust in your feelings, gut instincts, and senses. this allows you to find truth in the way you relate to yourself, fellow humanbeings, the universe, and this force or collective consciousness that you have some sense of.


So very, very well said


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## ahriman (Nov 11, 2004)

I love what is happening in this chamber. I visited years ago, when to post in this room was akin to revealing you had leprosy. Faith is a maligned term that I've often equated in the past with blind, childish hope. Today, I believe it is the doorway to a rediscovery of our connection to deeper levels of being and perceiving. My faith in the outside "progression" of things leaves me little choice but to go inward, which is why I think life is increasingly becoming the devil's bargain. Who needs to descend into the bowels of the earth? We've got a regular smorgasbord of sin layed out before each of us. Let me clarify the term: sin, in spanish anyway, means "without". In english sin becomes single, or singular. We are all alone in our sin, or withoutness. We are empty and isolated. That is the true meaning of sin. It has nothing to do with premarital sex or gambling, although those things can and will take us away from that which truly is important and holds meaning for us, if we allow them to. Everything in moderation. The experience of dp leads one through the ultimate taste of sin. It is the darkest night of the soul. I know intimately what it feels like to wake up each morning feeling like a deflated beachball, colors faded from too many days in the hot sun. Empty like the inside of a lead pipe. Stop looking outside for the answers. The vacuum pressure the world exacts upon our souls will only continue to empty us in its imperfect way. The answer lies within. It is what we have always known and will continue to know until the day of our death. When we finally see it, we'll laugh ourselves to tears at the recognition of who we are. Understanding invalidates a lifetime of regret in a flash, a lifetime of ill will suffered, gives validation to childish hope. The most difficult part is to trust ourselves, as most of us have grown up in a world that has invalidated us at each turn, and perhaps continues to do so. We listen and obey. I'll do better next time. Yes, sir, whatever you say, sir. Damnit, why didn't you follow my directions? Ad infinitum. The panels of experts invalidate us. Intuition is superstition. Heavier than air flight is impossible. We live conflicted lives to such an extent that we hire coaches to tell us how to live. We do not trust ourselves. We do not trust ourselves. We've forgotten that we can trust ourselves. Our society preys on the fact that we do not know how to trust ourselves, how to rely on ourselves and each other. As Timothy Leary once said, for similar but different reasons: "Turn off, tune in, turn on", or something like that. Disconnect from the 4,000,000,000 channel cable network called "Postmodern world" and start making inroads into your own soul. There is no map, only faith.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

I enjoyed reading your post ahriman. I think a large reason why nobody trusts themselves is because every day we are bombarded with impressions, images and advertisements which tell us that we are lacking in something, that we have to strive to be other than we actually are, then when we look at ourselves and what we see doesn't fit the image of what we have been conditioned to believe we should be we block out and repress those parts of us which are unacceptable, so we are not whole anymore and while we are not whole it is impossible to even know ourselves let alone trust ourselves.


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## californian (Jul 24, 2006)

i too enjoyed reading your post ahriman. i hope you continue to post more! 

both your post and pablo's post reminds me a lot of the movie fight club. i think a lot of people watch that movie and don't really get it, and therefore hate it, or else they like it for the wrong reasons. but it has a lot to say about the inauthentic consumer driven existence that is fed to all of us everyday. one of my favorite quotes: "we work jobs that we hate to buy sh*t we don't need."


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## Epiphany (Apr 28, 2006)

Ahriman...I enjoyed your post also.

I think this is exactly what brought on my dp. I realised I was no longer matching the image of myself that I had created. I felt I no longer measured up and I didn't like how it made me feel...inadequate, confused and totally lost. I fell apart.

Since I have let all my anxieties go I can now see what dp/dr has allowed me to see. I don't need to apologise for who I am...I regret nothing. I don't need to understand everything or hate those things about me that aren't ideal.

My dp/dr stripped me right back...it deconstructed me, destroyed me but also released me from my expectations of myself. I had to rebuild myself...readjust, recreate...I am now able to accept both my light and dark side and not fear it. From time to time I still hear that old voice...the one that tells me I'm not good enough, I don't measure up...but it doesn't have the same impact now...it just doesn't hold the same power.

Dp/dr is frightening to experience, no doubt, but I can now see why I needed to go through it and the strength I have gained from it. I am learning to listen to myself more and I don't hate myself or blame myself anymore for "not meeting expectations".

When I was dp'd (before the anxiety set in), I felt as though suddenly I understood a lot more (spiritually) than I ever had before. Nothing material held any meaning for me and I felt as though I were a part of something much larger. People seemed silly to me...their conversations, the things that upset them, that pleased them all seemed so superficial. I felt like noone was "getting it" and it made it hard for me to relate (luckily I am good at keeping up appearances). I felt like I had been given a glimpse of some "ultimate truth"...I didn't feel I had all the answers, just that I recognised that we were all part of some collectiveness that we had lost touch with, but that we weren't meant to understand. 
I can accept that this may have just been to do with the smoke and mirrors affect that dp/dr has on skewing our perspective but it did give me an alternative outlook that seems to have stayed with me since my dp/dr has lifted.


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2006)

I, unlike most of you, follow a certain religion. It is my best weapon against all the evil things in this world including dp/dr. It has also thought me to recognize myself and motivated me to set and accomplish some goals that I'd never be able to do without it.


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