# Why does therapy cost so much?!!!



## S O L A R I S (Dec 24, 2009)

My insurance does not cover psychology sessions/talk therapy. I called a few places to check on the prices and they charged ridiclous amounts of money for a session. 250 dollars per session!! that is ridiclous.

My insurance does not cover medication or psychiatric visits as well, ugh. Im already spending cash on this, Im not sure I can afford to add therapy costs to it. Something is wrong with this picture,


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## alegoribar (Mar 1, 2010)

*I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE SAYING!*

Supposedly their will be a medical reform on 2013 because of what you are going through because IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO GET HELP IN THIS SOCIETY. Mexico, Cuba, Canada, Spain, France, etc. HAVE UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE, THIS COUNTRY DOESN'T AND IT SUCKS!


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## FoXS (Nov 4, 2009)

i thought obama brings a "change"?


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2010)

Because the psychs spend so many years in school and need to pay off their student loans AND make a living off of their work


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## alegoribar (Mar 1, 2010)

Yes the health industry in this country is all about &%$#$ MONEY!


NOT REALLY HELPING


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## curseofconstantsight (Feb 8, 2010)

Unfortunately the struggle to get 1. diagnosed properly, 2. medicated properly and 3. obtain affordable therapy is yet another one of life's serious set of challenges. It's how serious you take your condition and how much you really want to change it. That said, I invested three months in this attempt only to get vainly selfish and attempt suicide... VERY selfish indeed...

So after that dumb feat and thanks to a caring family I went back to my doc and got "treatment-resistant" meds for depression... Okay, so yes I had to fork over $70 for the appointment but the doc knew about my condition and gave me samples free of charge...AND the pharmaceutical company had a website that has a patients assistance program for those who can't afford the costly sums for depression meds.

I found a therapist that gives me a discount that is very affordable... but see, you have to tell them your situation up front and be sincere about how much you really can afford... they won't offer the nice guy/gal discount unless YOU ask!









There are solutions but yes, THEY ARE A BIG PAIN IN THE ARSE.....AND state, county and federal staffers are over-worked and underpaid so you have to be patient and persistent... some counties have an indigent program if you don't qualify for Medical or Medicaid...

Good luck and work on it hard, for YOURSELF, for your peace of mind and so that others can love you!


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

FoXS said:


> i thought obama brings a "change"?


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2010)

FoXS said:


> i thought obama brings a "change"?


Obama hasn't changed CRAP. I voted for him and was SOOOO excited to have another Dem in charge of the country. The 8 years under Clinton were like the golden years. Thriving economy, low gas prices, funding for schools and healthcare and social programs. Obama has been in office a year and has done NOTHING. NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING. >


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## pancake (Nov 26, 2009)

tinyfairypeople said:


> Obama has been in office a year and has done NOTHING. NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING. >


A year is not exactly long to change a whole county.


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## curseofconstantsight (Feb 8, 2010)

[quote name='pancake' date='07 March 2010 - 09:27 PM' timestamp='1267997270' post='183943']
A year is not exactly long to change a whole county.[/quote}

Very true... Obama has quite a handful of tasks that he is juggling... health insurance reform just being one of them. Keep in mind that Congress, both Dems and Repubs, are making this a politcal fight.

... and as he has said of late, change isn't easy and it will take everyone, not only his administration, to make it all possible...


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## Ivan Hawk (Jan 22, 2010)

It's not only the president's responsibility, but also the entire health care industry and American government involved with the issue that is responsible. Every single person who determines the methods and costs of providing health-care is responsible in this field, however if you think about it... the entire American economy is ridiculously inflated these days with many outrageous selective prices that are completely off-balance with each other. Everytime someone raises their prices in one area, many others are forced to raise theirs as well to compensate and make enough to maintain themselves.

In economics, inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time. When the price level rises, each unit of currency buys fewer goods and services; consequently, inflation is also _an erosion in the purchasing power of money_ -* a loss of real value* in the internal medium of exchange and unit of account in the economy.

Business monopolies are the main reason behind the ridiculous prices in health care along with credit and anything else that gives the illusion of having more money, when in fact there is more commonly a greater loss to the individual and the economy for having to wait longer. Anytime an industry creates delays in the economy raises the costs of having to wait for this delay in my opinion. When the prices of goods/services are much higher and your wages are barely increased to compensate, you have a monopoly involved.

There's also many complaints about national (certainly not military) Free Healthcare having dangerously long waiting times or having to book way ahead for major operations somehow foreseeing a major injury before it occurs heh


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

wall street and the federal reserve and the various groups that consist of and connect to them rule the country/world.


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## Sarasi3 (Mar 4, 2010)

Dear solaris,

i too have a problem forking out so much money. DP forced me to quit my full time job as i could not concentrate. so, i was lucky enough to find a psychologist in her final year at university. I only pay $25 AUD per hour and i see her weekly. She is amazing. we are working on CBT and so-far it is working for me. she has been working at a real psychology practice as a trainee under supervision of a highly qualified and sought after psych. so she is being taught by someone who is highly recommended. everything we discuss is under supervison, so it gets discussed with the qualified psych she is learning from after my sessions. then he offers her advice on how to treat me (not that she needs it so-far she has been very helpful)

so i guess it is worth emailing the universities to ask how to get hold of a trainee. i understand my situation might be a rare one, but its worth a try.

Also, i know that the australian government will bulk bill psych appointments in blocks of 6, if you have a refferal from your doctor. it works out to about $80-$100 AUD per session when you pay the gap. which is far better than $180 average cost of 1 hour session in australia. i am not sure about other countries, but i guess ask your doctor if theres a way to get it cheaper before asking a psych.

if you are having trouble gaining confidence and treating anxiety on your own, plaese dont let money stop you from getting professional help. your health and happiness is priceless.

best wishes


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## isthisreallife (Mar 20, 2010)

OMG all of your posts are completely horrifying! I realize now how grateful I should be for having free therapy through my university! Its not that I wasn't grateful but maybe I'd think differently about it if I had to dish out $200 per session. Imagine going through something horrible like DP/DR or trauma, abuse, ptsd, and not being able to afford therapy for that on top of all the problems. That is completely unfair! It seems like that is the number one thing that ought to have help for! Quality of life!

It just breaks my heart that a thing such as money can make the help people need so out of reach! Myself I couldn't imagine not having the help especially when I started having flashbacks relating to PTSD, and I hit such a low, and the DP/DR was so bad, I just didn't think twice about having the help available! Wow what a messed up system that doesn't cover things like that and MEDICATION!? wow, what next even doctors visits cost money?!!?? WHAT?! I'm in Canada, all that here is free, I paid $3.00 canadian for my bottle of SSRI's meds because it was mostly covered. Thats less than a burger at McDonalds. I can't believe people pay for that! I'm so angry!


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2010)

@Inzom

*Amendment XVI to the Constitution:*

_*"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, without regard to any census or enumeration."

"During the Civil War, Congress had instituted an income tax, and the Supreme Court upheld it. But in Pollack v. Farmers Loan & Trust Co. (1895), the Court ruled that the income tax was a direct tax, when meant that under Article I it could not be levied at a uniform rate but instead had to be apportioned among the States. Such a complicated formula would be difficult to administer, so Congress passed the Sixteenth Ammendment in 1909 and it was ratified in 1913."*_

It's original purpose as I understand it was to help pay off the cost of the Civil War.

One needs to read the Constitution. It isn't even that long a document. The Sixteenth Amendment notes that collecting income tax by the Federal Government is legal and binding by the Supreme Court and ratified by Congress -- since 1913

*Re: mental health coverage.*
Bottom line is the brain is the only organ in the body that does not have equal rights with the rest of the body. Ignorance and stigma, and past theories before advances in medicine, neurology and psychiatry, have not recognized mental illness as MEDICAL.
Also, medical costs have to be paid somehow. Health insurance didn't exist until (I think the late 1950s). Medicine was simpler. People didn't live as long. Treatments were not as advanced. Medical costs have skyrocketed. Individuals have many unnecessary procedures as doctors fear malpractice suits. Psychiatrists charge a high fee as they, in theory, can only see one person for 45 minutes. Hence they can see @ 8-10 individuals in a day for therapy. Psychiatry is now more "meds dispensing" ... it is unfortunate as many cannot afford mental health care.

But nothing is for free. Individuals are taxed to pay for basic services such as the military, building roads, maintaining the country infrastructure. If we have socialized medical care, considering we are already trillions of dollars in debt, my question is "Where does the money come from?" Taxes, the government borrows more money (we are in tremendous debt to China for example) ... Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security (all government programs) are close to running out of money.

No system of medical care is perfect.
Obama inherited a mess which included the Iraq War, the war in Afghanistan, etc. as well as the collapse of Wall Street, the housing market crash, high unemployment, failing schools, etc.
Also, Obama's choices must be ratified by Congress, and as someone mentioned Democrats and Republicans do not agree on much at all these days.
Also, passage of a new bill a few days ago, cannot go into effect immediately. It will take until approximately 2014 for all of it to go into effect.

My very good health plan is already rationing my psychiatric care.

I don't know the solution. But individuals in countries with socialized medicine, pay higher taxes on goods and services, and have far less disposable income than Americans. Americans have been living beyond their means. Pick your poison, a free-market economy or a socialist economy ... each has benefits and risks and no one country has found a "perfect system." Things aren't as simple as even 100 years ago.


Having fun trying out new fonts. If no one pays taxes, how do we support general government programs? Where does the money come from? A portion of one's earnings in any country is taken to pay for many public services.
End of lecture.








Nite


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2010)

*1. Bottom line, you are breaking the law of the Constitution of the United States if you do not pay your income taxes.

2. Mental illness needs to be treated as a medical disorder along with any other medical disorder of the body.

3. We have to figure out a way to assist certain groups of the population in paying for various services without going into further debt. As noted, the United States is now TRILLIONS of dollars in debt. Other countries, such as Greece, have actually run out of money. We have not figured out globalization in a world with developed, developing, and underdeveloped countries.

4. Nothing is simple. Life's a bitch. DP is the worst.

5. One day at a time. Don't give up.*


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## Ivan Hawk (Jan 22, 2010)

Relating to health care through the more foundational cause of why its prices are so much higher than our income can afford thus forcing us into insurance and credit (funny money)









When federal money is funding business and corporate money is funding government policy - business runs the country more than the government. What happens when businesses hold more power in a country is they run it in their own favor. Throughout history top businesses have bailed out the American government (JP Morgan 1895,1907 being the more popular example) while the government has bailed out top businesses. Trillions of dollars are shared strictly between the two in order to maintain each other and most of this money is left up to the businesses to decide what to do with it. So what do they spend it on? Funding their own interests of course. Having an increasing number of people increasingly rely on money for survival by working an increasing number of hours and level of effort perhaps.

We need a reduction of our reliance on money as the average amount of time and effort put into this medium is increasing in complexity and demand beyond the 24-hours we have in a day, and what many are physically and mentally capable of - thus money itself is reducing our quality of health as it provides health-care to compensate for this reduction. Like a vicious cycle of both curing and causing health problems (apparently mostly causing them in America though)

Most people cannot afford to pay for their necessary health-care in the US without insurance, payment plans or borrowed money. Less people can afford certain services up front in cash alone. Insurance was apparently the proposed solution to high costs. Anything to benefit the businesses that fund(run) the country instead of enforcing lower costs through realistic modifications. Lowering the cost of anything is possible with the right measures taken. I suppose we'll have to see what this healthcare bill has in store now. I'm still researching it and reading the actual bill, so my opinion is still in development hehe


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2010)

Well, you're saying that Capitalism is bad, and that the concept of the Republic (which was to control government intervention) is wrong.

Also, price in economics (the little I know of economics) is based on Supply and Demand.

In a more socialist economy a doctor is salaried or would earn far less than physicians in the US who work for themselves. More young doctors are moving toward the salaried model for various reasons. This will probably happen. The argument against this is one has less choice in quality of care. Competition in theory weeds out inferior products in companies. But again, it isn't that simple.

Democrats/Liberals are more for spending government money, Republicans are for a more Free market approach. Both have positives and negatives. When the government took over the school system, it destroyed it. But I'll say this again. Who pays for basic needs such as police, roadwork, parks, the military, and now Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid ... your Stat or the Fedreral Governemtn ... but where does the money come from -- from individuals who pay into the system -- taxes. Money doesn't "appear" it is taken from the population. In more socialist countries lifestyle is more simple and a greater percentage of income is paid in taxes -- especially goods and services. In the UK, food and fuel cost up to three times as much than in the US. It's because there is a tax on goods and services far higher than in the US. In the US our INCOME is taxes, and goods and services are taxed at a lower rate.

The reason we have Amendments to the Constitution is that things change. Our population here has grown. We "opened our doors" to immigrants seeking "a better life."

The decision to bail out the collapse on Wall Street was awful ... but we don't know what would have happened had there not been a bailout. We are in a situation close to the Great Depression ...

I don't know the easy answer out of this. And the US which is based on different concepts of government can't suddenly turn around and change in an instant.

Bottom line, this leads us back to government provided healthcare ... well right now the country DOES NOT HAVE THE MONEY TO COVER IT. So where does it get the money? Inflated prices and higher taxes.
I guess one picks his/her poison. I don't mind living a simpler life. As noted many Americans live BEYOND their means and are in terrible debt.

If we abandon the elderly -- pensions lost, social security gone, Medicare and Medicaid gone ... where do we get the money for the uninsured. Do we force people to buy health insurance when they are young when they actually can't afford it. Should smaller businesses go out of business (and then leave more people unemployed) if they are forced to pay higher health care benefits?

I don't know any of these answers. But it's not as simple as saying, "Government, give us money." WE ARE in essence the source of government funds. My husband and I pay about 28% of all of our income every year to income taxes. We also pay for health care. The money for helping those WITHOUT healthcare ... how would you solve it. I have no clue.

I honestly have no answer, and I'm scared.


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## Absentis (Jul 10, 2007)

Therapy costs so much because clinical psychologists have a PhD, and that takes around a decade of school (assuming 4 years of undergrad, and 6 years of grad). School is really expensive, and they are more educated than other professions (like doctors and lawyers). A psychologist's skill set and time is very valuable.

Here in Canada it costs about 1.5 times as much to see a psychiatrist as a psychologist. Most people don't know this because our healthcare system pays for the psychiatrist (since they are medical doctors) but not for psychologists.


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

Dreamer* said:


> @InzomIf no one pays taxes, how do we support general government programs? Where does the money come from? A portion of one's earnings in any country is taken to pay for many public services.
> End of lecture.
> 
> 
> ...


The income tax does not pay for the necessities of society. There are a multitude of other taxes for that. The Federal Reserve is a *private* bank, it is as federal as Federal Express. My memory is very bad atm so I cannot remember the other reasons why the income tax is unconstitutional and illegal, it is all in this film:

http://www.esoterictube.com/america-freedom-to-fascism.html


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2010)

Inzom said:


> The income tax does not pay for the necessities of society. There are a multitude of other taxes for that. The Federal Reserve is a *private* bank, it is as federal as Federal Express. My memory is very bad atm so I cannot remember the other reasons why the income tax is unconstitutional and illegal, it is all in this film:
> 
> http://www.esoterictube.com/america-freedom-to-fascism.html


Inzom,
I can't watch the film as I already know it has to be some conspiracy film and I've seen enough discussing this with others. Everything is a conspiracy including the WTC collapse and I'm tired of that. I also notice that you are from Sweden, in which case you should be fine. You don't live in the US, so why would you be involved in "educating" those of us who are "stupid enough to live here?"

There cannot be that many individuals who have completely missed the laws in the Constitution.

The Boston Tea party was about "No taxation without representation" so even at the birth of our Nation individuals knew they wanted government representatives they could elect to be taxed. That's why we have this new movement called the "Tea Party" which is something of a joke on the Boston Tea Party.

When there is no tax base ... and I near my hometown, Detroit, MI which I'm sure you've heard of ... car captial, Motown, etc. ... there was "white flight" and a complete loss of the middle class starting in the 1960s. The result, a city of 2 million is now a city of 1 million. No "tax base" -- that is individuals pay PROPERTY tax, sales tax, INCOME tax. However if an individual is poor they cannot pay these or much. So, there is a depleted police force, no garbage pickup, no plowing of streets or repair of streets in winter. Also, said individuals have no jobs where a percentage of one's income is taken for MEDICAL INSURANCE, SOCIAL SECURITY, MEDICARE, MEDICAID. These SERVICES are legally covered by INCOME TAXES and a smaller tax on service -- I know in Canada not only is there highter tax on products (where Canadians used to cross the border to BUY clothes and shoes and other goods as they had LESS TAX than in their country and were cheaper) ... Canadians also ended up with a higher VAT (value added tax.)

You in Sweden pay taxes that are spread out amongst a more homogeneous country, not one divided up by 50 states.

If you don't know ANY of the history of the US, and have not read the Constitution, I'm not sure how you could understand our governmental system which is indeed very different from yours.

The US is a unique country. We rebelled against Britain and built our own country basic on a Republic view. Britain was a Monarchy. Everything this country became in 1776 has had to change. Things evolve.

THere is difference between corruption of individuals/companies etc., failure in the banking system, etc. than conspiracies.

I have heard/seen these conspiracy theories before. My husband works for the Federal Government. He is a consumer protection agent. If he is stupid enough to believe these things, then I give up. You are literally saying that Obama and every President before him since 1913 knows nothing of American history.

ALL IMMIGRANTS TO THIS COUNTRY MUST TAKE EXAMS INDICATING THEY KNOW THE CONSTITUTION AND CAN BE ASKED ANY NUMBER OF QUESTIONS ABOUT IT. HOW CAN ALL OF THESE IMMIGRANTS BE THAT STUPID?

Where does the money in your country come from to pay for schools, roads, the police, building roads and bridges, etc., etc. How much is the price of fuel in your country? How much are a pair of jeans? How much is food.

Why do you think you pay for things. Our governments simply are based on different concepts of government as are so many countries around the world. Look at North Korea. I would wish to live there. They have no lights at night.

Right now, in a very short period of time, our Social Security system will collapse -- why it was mismanaged by the govenrment? So will Medicare and Medicaid. Many who paid into pensions for retirement are finding there is no money in pensions THEY PAID INTO OVER TIME.

Where does money come from?

This affects the health care debate in the U.S.
That's all I'll say, as it isn't worth debating. Why would the Republicans be angry about paying more taxes if taxes were illegal. They'd "prove" it was illegal.

I'm not defending any one type of government, but there are Republics, Socialists Governments, Liberal Governments, Monarchies, Dictatorships, etc., etc.

Just one question, why would someone from Sweden who likes it there, be telling Americans they are uneducated about the one document that is the basis of the United States' existence?

Best,
D


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2010)

Also, where are these other taxes? Yes on businesses, big and small. Where do you think this money comes from.

I will be writing a check to the Federal Government, The State of MI and the State my husband lives in, three separate checks on April 15th of this year. The money for my State goes to my State for the services it offers including the maintenance of PUBLIC parks, etc. What OTHER taxes are coming in? People, residents of this country pay INCOME TAX and taxes on goods. Buisnesses pay taxes. Anyone who works pays taxes. They also pay PREMIUMS for their health insurance.

Some people do not work (especially in this bad economic time) ... and so there is less and less money going into the system. Also, we have taken LOANS from other countries. As I said the US is TRILLIONS of dollars in debt to money we BORROWED from other countries. This is like borrowing from a "friend." You still have to pay them back. And we pay for the Iraq War, the war in Afghanistan, military stationed around the world, for cleaniing up natural disasters, with the help of other countries.

Who pays for the schools in your country? Our schools are "free" as the individuals living in the area of the schools pay city taxes or state taxes which go to funding the schools. I went to a private school. My parents PAID the school for me to go there. It was a higher quality school than the public school. But my parents also paid income tax to support the public school.

You have to live in a country to understand it.

I don't live in Sweden so I wouldn't attack your way of government.

We are in a mess here, I agree with that, but it isn't because we don't legally owe income taxes. The logic escapes me. You can be put in jail if you refuse to pay income taxes. It will take them a few years to find you, but it is a CRIME here in the US.

Cheers,
D


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2010)

Dreamer* said:


> Also, where are these other taxes? Yes on businesses, big and small. Where do you think this money comes from.
> 
> I will be writing a check to the Federal Government, The State of MI and the State my husband lives in, three separate checks on April 15th of this year. The money for my State goes to my State for the services it offers including the maintenance of PUBLIC parks, etc. What OTHER taxes are coming in? People, residents of this country pay INCOME TAX and taxes on goods. Buisnesses pay taxes. Anyone who works pays taxes. They also pay PREMIUMS for their health insurance.
> 
> ...


PS -- Public hospitals are BROKE, as they do not get money for individuals who have health insurance. State/City/Federal taxes help FUND these hospitals, but how long can you keep up a hospital with LESS money than the services you are giving. If a doctor isn't getting paid how can he/she LIVE as well? A nurse, an orderly, someone who does intake, how do they pay the electric bill for the advanced equipment or the lighting?

Bringing income tax into the health insurance argument only confuses it more. Yes, Republican DO NOT WISH TO BE TAXED MORE TO PAY FOR HEALTH INSURANCE, Liberals are willing BUT NOT IN A PLAN THAT NO ONE REALLY UNDERSTANDS IN A TIME WHERE MANY ARE OUT OF WORK, AND THE ECONOMY IS IN BAD SHAPE.


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

Well. Where to start. I should probably wait and write a proper reply when I´m not as tired as I am right now. First of all there are three nations that have always interested me because they seem great, USA/Canada/Holland. Mostly because of the people but also because of the nature. I have never cared much for my own country, and I believe that we should not even have countries or monetary economies. We are all people on this earth and nations and money are very imperfect and primitive ways of life. 
I am interested in the economic and political state of America because as it is now, the actions being taken by the people in charge over there do not only affect Americans but the rest of the world as well. 
And this is not a "left or right" issue or even a "Conspiracy Theory" issue, well there are conspiracies but they are not theories anymore.
I sincerely apologize if I was insulting to Americans, that was not my intention at all. I am far from an expert in American history. But I DO know that the constitution and the bill of rights are being raped and ignored, I DO know that 9/11 was an inside job, I DO know that the federal reserve is not federal, Bush and Chaney needed the public to be distracted from the current state of affairs and for them to support the "war on terror" so that they could invade and take all the oil. If the people have a common enemy they will not turn against their government who are the real enemy. 
There is such an extreme amount of evidence for this and more, but you will not find it on CNN or Fox etc because they are owned by the same people that profit from all this. 
One should always be critical when gathering information, but it bothers me when free/alternative media that covers important issues are called "Conspiracy Theory Nonsense" especially when those articles/films have their facts straight and quote legitimate sources, and call on common sense.
I would greatly appreciate if you watched "*Zeitgeist : Addendum*" as it is very relevant to these matters without being left/right or taking any sides, except the side that "_In a world where 1% of the population owns 40% of the planet's wealth&#8230; in a world where 34,000 children die every single day from poverty and preventable diseases, and where 50% of the world's population lives on less than 2 dollars a day&#8230; one thing is clear: Something is very wrong._"

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

" Americans have been conditioned in their kind of society to get a different kind of car next year, to buy a new television set or a tape recorder. We are radical as hell, though our political and social institutions have not changed, and this is where we are stagnating; because we always equate any new idea with communism or regimentation, because we've been brought up to fear that which is new. "

-Jacque Fresco

Peace.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2010)

Inzom said:


> Well. Where to start. I should probably wait and write a proper reply when I´m not as tired as I am right now. First of all there are three nations that have always interested me because they seem great, USA/Canada/Holland. Mostly because of the people but also because of the nature. I have never cared much for my own country, and I believe that we should not even have countries or monetary economies. We are all people on this earth and nations and money are very imperfect and primitive ways of life.
> I am interested in the economic and political state of America because as it is now, the actions being taken by the people in charge over there do not only affect Americans but the rest of the world as well.
> And this is not a "left or right" issue or even a "Conspiracy Theory" issue, well there are conspiracies but they are not theories anymore.
> I sincerely apologize if I was insulting to Americans, that was not my intention at all. I am far from an expert in American history. But I DO know that the constitution and the bill of rights are being raped and ignored, I DO know that 9/11 was an inside job, I DO know that the federal reserve is not federal, Bush and Chaney needed the public to be distracted from the current state of affairs and for them to support the "war on terror" so that they could invade and take all the oil. If the people have a common enemy they will not turn against their government who are the real enemy.
> ...


Dear Inzom,

I really don't take this personally against the US. We have had conspiracy theories in this country, as all countries do, since the birth of the country.

I really wish you would just answer a few questions, as I am truly curious:

1. Why don't you like your own country? What do you find negative about Sweden, if that's what you're saying?

2. How do you propose we pay for goods and services without money. The alternative is bartering which is indeed more "primitive."

3. I agree with you that Americans live far beyond their means, and this has caused the housing crisis and the credit debt crisis here. As I said, I wouldn't mind living more simply, and I pretty much do,
but it's true, because we are a capitalist economy spending is encouraged to keep the system alive. When we have had "boom" times, more people do well and the economy flourishes. We've had many recent
catastrophes, mismanagement in banks, poor decisions in government, etc. that have led to this, but Americans have also contributed to this.

The very fact that fuel has been so cheap here for so long has led families to buy large cars (and the car companies only made them, not thinking ahead), and many have more than one car which is not as
common in other countries. We are materialistic. But so are other countries such as Japan ... other Western countries. This is the fault of human beings anyway. A sense of entitlement.

4. At any rate, I have discussed these conspiracy theories with many people here in the US who believe as you do. But "alternative media" is frequently lacking in critical logical information.

And say with the WTC, I know people who live in NYC, who were there. Who knew people who died. They were direct witnesses, so were the Naudet brothers who had the footage of the collapse of the towers, even from inside one of them. There was no need to set up an elaborate ruse to force the US into a war with Iraq. The whole confusion of WMD which had been followed for some 10+ years by the UN was reason enough for a number attempts on Saddam Hussein's life. You must know Islamic terrorists exist everywhere and they especially hate capitalism. The recent bombing of the subways in Russia we committed by Islamic terrorists.

A bomb was set off (in a truck) in the WTC in 1993? and failed miserably, but did manage to cause damage and hurt people. A plane near here nearly crashed -- the "undie bomber" who wished to destroy a plane right near my own local airport. Just to terrorize, make a statement.

5. Americans ELECT the people in charge. That doesn't mean said people are always competent nor are they always honest.

I have little faith in the goodness of humanity overall. Since time began there have been wars, there has been corruption, there has been stupidity, there has been greed.

Sorry this is way off topic ... but I am quite interested in your alternative to using money to pay for things. How would you have the computer you have? How would you have the electricity to run it? etc., etc. People make things (creates jobs), get paid for working, and subsequently put money into the system to support other businesses. We can't trade a pig for medical service anymore. Or barter. We are a global economy, joined at the hip, but full of many different ideas about how the world should be run. And yes, politics and ideologies are important. Your POV is an ideology like any other. The question is, what plan works best at any given time, and it is very difficult to find agreement among millions of people.

And again, this goes back to the fact that though ideally "we are all equal and valuable" -- distribution of wealth is not simple. Some countries are so corrupt/dictators take all the money for themselves and refuse to build an infrastructure or provide services when they are able to. Again, look to the history of North and South Korea. Compare the two countries, and decide which you would prefer to live in.

Glad we can have a civil conversation, but it is obvious we see things from a very different POV. And I am NOT saying the US is perfect by any means. But I was born here and have lived here for 51 years. Sort of difficult to start over at this point in my life. And again, why do we have so many immigrants who LEAVE their own countries because they find a better chance at a better quality of life here? And many study to become legal citizens. Why? They are living in poor conditions in their own countries. Not to say we have many people in the US living in intolerable conditions, but there is always a culture of the poor .. how we solve that, I don't know.

Cheers,
D


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_based_economy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Venus_Project

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist_movement

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

In short, using the scientific method for social concern. And removing money as the incentive for progress. I´m depressed and on Klonopin and Xanax so I appologize for posting links instead of summarizing it all myself, although that would be difficult even if I were in good shape, since it all consists of hundreds of pages of documentation/research and 4-6 hours of (free) video.

*Addendum* and the *Orientation Guide* explains it all.

*Addendum* : http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912

*Orientation Guide* : http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3932487043163636261

*Orientation Guide PDF* : http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/The%20Zeitgeist%20Movement.pdf

Be well.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

Dear Inzom,

I understanding feeling lousy. What helps my DP is doing research of all kinds, but I enjoy this conversation as I've been reading about Sweden! Do you realize your country is cited as the country with the highest taxes on its individuals?! This is why you have many "free" services. The various taxes listed below, pay for your social services. I believe you get a free college education, free medical care, etc..... but it is all paid for by taxes on individuals who live in Sweden. I didn't know your country had the HIGHEST taxes.

So, you, if you work, are paying taxes. When you buy something you pay a tax on it. Employers apparently are required to pay part of your tax, but I'm not clear on that. So, when you go to work, or buy something, your taxes are taken from your wages, and extra tax is placed on things you buy. This money is collected by the government and REDISTRIBUTED ... this is very simple. This is an example of a socialist country. The US also pays taxes, and has similar taxation, but not at this rate. Our country wants LESS taxation, LESS money going to the government, and wants the "Free Market" to set prices through supply and demand. There are faults in both systems.

If taxes are not legal in the US, why are they legal and the LARGEST TAXATION PER PERSON in the world? Most Western countries have taxes.
Well, I learned something about your country.
Also, The Zeitgeist Movement is very small. It is idealistic, but I don't think it is at all practical. And certain statements are very misleading.

Curious of your reaction that in your country you pay the highest taxes of most other countries?

In Peace,
Absolutely,
D
And for example, in the US, in my Sate, the sales tax is 6% I think. So if I buy a shirt for $20.00 (U.S. dollars) I must pay tax of an extra $1.20 ... so the shirt costs $21.20 (sorry, I'm bad at math, LOL). A shirt in Sweden, might cost more ... say the $20.00 shirt with tax may cost $30.00 as extra tax and VAT is added. But the tax on the US shirt, and the tax on the Swedish shirt BOTH go to the government to pay for services. More of your income is taxed, your goods and services, your pension, etc. I don't understand economics, but most of it is explained below, and you know what taxes you spend at least on things you buy. One last example is the car you drive would be MUCH more expensive in Sweden than here in the US. Also the fuel is much more expensive. Your computer would be. And that extra money is taxes and added fees that contribute to society as a whole. So as a Swede you have less disposable income than an American. So an American would buy 2 cars instead of one. I'm not saying that's a good thing, it just is because of the way the two governments are different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Sweden

*Taxation in Sweden*

Taxation in Sweden may involve payments to three different levels of government: the municipality, the county council, and the central government. The payments are collected by the Swedish Tax Agency (Skatteverket). In addition the Swedish Tax Agency collects a church tax from members of the Church of Sweden. The tax rates in Sweden are commonly cited as among the highest in the world.

Sweden has a taxation system that combines a direct tax (paid by the employee) with an indirect tax (paid by the employer). In practice, the employer provides the state with both means of taxation, but the employee only sees the direct tax on his declaration form. The compilation of taxes that compose the final income tax (2009): tax on gross income from the employer: 31.42% (indirect, fixed), pension fee on gross income: 7.00% (indirect, fixed), municipal tax on gross income less pension tax and a base deduction: ~32% (direct, varies by municipality), state tax on gross income less pension tax and a base deduction: 0%, 20%, or 25% (direct, progressive)[1]. In addition, an earned income tax credit applies for gross income, effectively reducing mean income tax.

Although the pension fee is stated as 7.00%, it is effectively cancelled out through an income tax credit for the entire pension fee sum assessed. Pension fees may not exceed 28800 kr/year.
[edit]Example

(Assumptions: Income tax (Direct - 32%), Employer social fee (indirect - 31.42%))

From a pay of "100", the Employer first pays "32" in Income tax (direct - 32%), on top of that the Employer also pays an additional "31.42" in Employers social fees (indirect - 31.42%).
Thus, from a pay check of "100", 63.42/131.42 (i.e. 48.3%) is paid as income taxes. This effective rate may be lowered by for example earned income tax credits and private retirement savings contributions.
[edit]Value Added Tax

The value added tax (mervärdesskatt or moms) rate in Sweden is 25%, with exceptions for food and services like hotel room rental fees (12%), and for sales of publications, admission tickets to cultural events and travel within Sweden (6%)[2].


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

The point, LOL, re: healthcare. In Sweden you get "free healthcare, or healthcare for less money." BUT, you are actually paying for everyone's healthcare through your taxes. In the US, the government only pays/subsidizes healthcare for the poor, very poor. Other Americans pay for their own healthcare, pay for private health insurance, and/or get health insurance paid by their employer.

The goal is to try to get the US system to be a combination of the existing system and some socialized medicine. But our problem is the social systems we have ... Medicare/Medicaid -- social medicine for the elderly and poor, and social security -- government income for the elderly are almost broke. No one planned, when that was established that retired people might live as long as they do. People now live to be 80, instead of say 65. They system is running out of money ... etc., etc., etc.

NITE!


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