# Something to 'think' about



## Guest

Just putting this out there for feedback.

'Near death experiences (NDE)' - The 'label' for an experience of being outside the body and witnessing what's going on in the room...the people, the conversations, the actions and then returning to the body, 'waking up' with the ability to relate all that was seen and heard while 'clinically' dead. Usually experienced from 'above' the activity. (For the sake of this particular discussion, I'm not concerned with the 'tunnel' experiences.)

For the sake of argument let's assume these experiences, as related by the experiencers, is true (lots of evidence that it is). That leads to the presumption that there is an 'awareness' (or consciousness...whatever you want to call it) beyond the physical body.

IF that's true, and that 'awareness' can be outside the body then doesn't it stand to reason that the same 'awareness' could be IN the body but detached from direct experience of the body's input either totally or in varying degrees and forms of experience of the body and its emotions, mental activity, etc.?

Also, if that 'awareness' is capable of being outside the body then it is NOT the body. That should be obvious. However, the body is still alive and 'doing its thing', as it were. When we sleep, 'we' are not there in a manner of speaking but yet the body continues on, repairs itself, does all sorts of things that we don't consciously experience...are not 'aware' of.

IF there is an aspect of 'us' that is not the body, then why is it IN the body to begin with? To experience 'physicality' which includes mental functions whether 'stable' or 'disorganized.' The 'problems' that arise from 'pathological' conditions is our identification with them. We say 'that's me going nuts.' I say, NO, it's not 'you.' It's your physical identity experiencing non-normal (as opposed to abnormal) reactions or lack of reaction in the body. By the same token, it IS 'you' within a particular frame of reference. It is NOT you in an ultimate frame of reference. Does that make sense? Probably not. Oh well... this stuff is hard to wrap the mind around or it would be cured by now. 

Just wondering what you guys think about this NDE idea and how it might relate to DP or DR.


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## Martinelv

NDE's, as it has long been known, except by those who want to believe it has some mystical connection, is related to ADSP (Awareness During Sleep Paralysis / Hypnogotic (sleep) hallucinations). I've had it many times. It has nothing whatsoever to do with DR/DP.

According to recent statistics, 43.3% of americans believe they have had a NDE or been abducted by an alien. Scarey eh? NDE's and Sleep Paralysis (or the 'Old Hag' in medieval times - Aliens nowadays, thanks to the X-Files!) are extremely common. Almost everyone experiences it at least once it their lives, whether they realise it or not. It's just a small hiccup in the sleep process.

Surf the web for (non-spiritual) explainations of NDE'S and Sleep Paralysis.

Incidently, in a clinical environment there has absolutely been NO evidence that people who have experienced NDE's have discovered information that would not normally be know to them. None. But because it's such a romantic idea, people ignore the evidence and believe what they want to. The only "evidence" you will read about is in glossy Sunday new magazines. Similar to the ones with headlines such as "I married my husbands cat."

The world is wonderous enough without this kind of guff. And it makes me wonder what is wrong with people who need to believe it.


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## Guest

I would accept what you say except for testimonys that include descriptions of what the 'surgical team', for instance, is saying and doing, and people coming and going and 'the view from the ceiling' type of stuff. How can you 'hallucinate' facts and reference points that are accurate when you're unconscious on a surgical table?

There are lots of things that can't be explained in normal terms...even scientific or medical terms. But doctors are like scientists in that they refuse to accept that they just flat do not understand something that doesn't fit into their framework. In fact, I think that's true of everyday people....they just cannot or will not see an alternative. 'Cannot' implies an inability. 'Will not' is just a position of stubborn arrogance, IMHO. And that's okay. Consideration of things outside our normal framework can be very threatening. AND, it's also good to have people with a more 'grounded' position to keep others from going off the deep end. 

I just don't feel that reports of experiences, particularly by so many, should be dismissed out of hand. Just like UFOs. I haven't seen one myself, but I don't discount the possibility....particularly since so many 'reputable' people including military types who are trained observers have also claimed to see them. Stable, responsible people have had NDE's and OBE's and been changed permanently by the experience. Why dismiss it so offhandedly?

My point being that nobody knows for sure about experiences that walk a fine line between reality as we know it and a possible reality 'not as we know it.' At least not yet. :wink:

I've never had an NDE or OBE (that I remember) but I have had a spontaneous levitation experience that absolutely was not what I was aiming for. In fact, I wasn't 'aiming' for anything. I was having an intense crying jag, grief stricken and it just happened and there were 2 'me's' or 2 awarenesses going. One was caught up in the experience, the other wanted to look at it. And it 'felt' separate, too. 'I' didn't want to look at it. This other aspect of 'me' wanted to. Point is there seemed to be two aspects of 'me' going on at the same time in different 'time' because 'I' was aware of the 'other' but 'it' wasn't aware of 'me.'

Jumping from beans to buttermilk: From a possible medical standpoint, DP could be some form of shock resulting from an overload to the biophysical aspects of the mental and emotional system. Some type of 'switch' could have been turned on (or off) to prevent input whether internal or external due to 'circuit overload.' Operating like a breaker switch. The 'outgo' portion is probably on that same loop and involves limiting output in order to reduce external reaction that threatens to overload the integrity of that portion of a persons experience absorption mechanism. I know that when I've taken a homeopathic for 'shock', it seems to help immensely for a while.


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## Martinelv

No, you are right, they cannot be dismissed out of hand. I am Jesus, UFO and NDE agnostic. I'll believe when someone presents irrefutable evidence. But so far in everycase, it's either fraud, misinterpretation, or downright lies. None of it stands up to scrutiny. Isn't it strange that over the hundreds, perhaps thousands of years, not one single scrap of evidence has been verified. Ever? The usual argument is that 'spiritual' occurances cannot be verified in labaratory conditions. LOL. Convenient eh?

There is a illusionist over here, called Darren Brown, who has spectaulary exposed such popular myths such as spirit reading, wedgie boards, ESP, contact with tht dead and so forth, as nothing more than a parlour trick. He, like me, thinks it's all a bit distastefull and, again, like me, wonders why people aren't satisfied with the awesome world, both good and bad, that surround us.

The 'Surgical Operation' story is a very popular one with regards to NDE's. But please keep in mind, it has NEVER been verified, except for eager journalists who twist the truth to suit their readers desires.

So yes, let's keep an open mind, but, as my hero Richard Dawkins says, not so much an open mind that our brains fall out.


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## Guest

Excerpts from an article by Dr. Pim van Lommel of the Netherlands and the link to the full article.

http://www.nderf.org/vanlommel_skeptic_response.htm

"From these studies we know that in our prospective study of patients that have been clinically dead (VF on the ECG) no electric activity of the cortex of the brain (flat EEG) must have been possible, but also the abolition of brain stem activity like the loss of the corneareflex, fixed dilated pupils and the loss of the gag reflex is a clinical finding in those patients. However, patients with an NDE can report a clear consciousness, in which cognitive functioning, emotion, sense of identity, and memory from early childhood was possible, as well as perception from a position out and above their ?dead? body. Because of the sometimes reported and verifiable out-of -body experiences, like the case of the dentures reported in our study, we know that the NDE must happen during the period of unconsciousness, and not in the first or last second of this period.

So we have to conclude that NDE in our study was experienced during a transient functional loss of all functions of the cortex and of the brainstem. It is important to mention that there is a well documented report of a patient with constant registration of the EEG during cerebral surgery for an gigantic cerebral aneurysm at the base of the brain, operated with a body temperature between 10 and 15 degrees, she was put on the heart-lung machine, with VF, with all blood drained from her head, with a flat line EEG, with clicking devices in both ears, with eyes taped shut, and this patient experienced an NDE with an out-of-body experience, and all details she perceived and heard could later be verified.

There is also a theory that consciousness can be experienced independently from the normal body-linked waking consciousness. The current concept in medical science states that consciousness is the product of the brain. This concept, however, has never been scientifically proven. Research on NDE pushes us at the limits of our medical concepts of the range of human consciousness and the relationship between consciousness and memories with the brain."


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## Guest

Martinelv said:


> No, you are right, they cannot be dismissed out of hand. I am Jesus, UFO and NDE agnostic. I'll believe when someone presents irrefutable evidence. But so far in everycase, it's either fraud, misinterpretation, or downright lies. None of it stands up to scrutiny. Isn't it strange that over the hundreds, perhaps thousands of years, not one single scrap of evidence has been verified. Ever? The usual argument is that 'spiritual' occurances cannot be verified in labaratory conditions. LOL. Convenient eh?
> 
> There is a illusionist over here, called Darren Brown, who has spectaulary exposed such popular myths such as spirit reading, wedgie boards, ESP, contact with tht dead and so forth, as nothing more than a parlour trick. He, like me, thinks it's all a bit distastefull and, again, like me, wonders why people aren't satisfied with the awesome world, both good and bad, that surround us.
> 
> The 'Surgical Operation' story is a very popular one with regards to NDE's. But please keep in mind, it has NEVER been verified, except for eager journalists who twist the truth to suit their readers desires.
> 
> So yes, let's keep an open mind, but, as my hero Richard Dawkins says, not so much an open mind that our brains fall out.


I'm fond of that quote myself..about the brains falling out. :wink: There will always be charlatans out there. But what does one do with the highly educated, mentally and emotionally stable folks that either witness phenomenon or experience them themselves? We would hear a lot more about 'out there' experiences from those types if there weren't such a hostile environment to express them in and the very real ostracizing and damaging of reputation that would occur. After all, they still have to 'be here' and earn a living and so on.


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## Martinelv

What you have just written is a classic failing of human understanding. And that's not being offensive, we all do it. You have found an article that says that NDE'S may exist independantly of our brain function. Fine.

But do you know how many more thousands of generally accepted scientific journals are out there that absolutely refute this. It is well known that at the point of brain stem death, that the cells around the retina temporaily activate, giving the impression of a 'tunnel of light'. Endorphins are relased at just prior to brain stem death, which gives the feeling of bliss. Isn't this entirely sensible? Paritucally when it has been verified time and time again.

We, as humans, forget the millions of people who don't experience anything spiritual during an NDE. Why is that? I'll tell you why. It's because we WANT to believe in life after death. We don't want to think that when we are dead, we are dead. We ingore the evidence like we would ignore our house burning down, as long as we kept our cherished beliefs.


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## Guest

Martinelv said:


> <snipped>The usual argument is that 'spiritual' occurances cannot be verified in labaratory conditions. LOL. Convenient eh?<snipped>


Skepticism is one thing, cynicism is another.

How on earth could somebody use current 'laboratory' capability that was developed for the 'physical' realm to 'investigate' and 'verify' nonphysical reality? That's just crazy. When they get to where they can develop equipment that uses frequency factors as well as electrical, magnetic, and elctromagnetic factors, for example, they might get closer to meeting the 'scientific criteria' of proof. Not to say that by then the 'criteria' will have changed to meet it and have been changed by the scientists themselves.

Ya know, this debate is no different than the debate over homeopathy. It's over 250 years old but scientists and even homeopaths can't fully explain how and why it works. It's based on 'frequency' and 'polarity.' It's dismissed by mainstream medicine (which holds hands with the pharmaceutical industry) because it can't be quantified based on accepted scientific standard. Who sets the standard? The scientist does. WHO is the scientist? Someone taught in the same schools as other scientists and everyone else. He has a briefcase and is more than 50 miles from home so he's an 'expert.'

Homeopathy works, pure and simple. I know from personal experience. Just because no one can fully explain (to everyone on the planet's satisfaction) how or why it works doesn't invalidate that it DOES. The indians, for instance, didn't know how or why a particular root made their stomach quit hurting, they just knew it did. Science came along later and figured out the 'how and why' of it. Science can still come along later and figure out the 'why and how' of homeopathy and NDE and DP and so on. But without an open mind and support that doesn't threaten social ostracizing, it will take forever and ever to get there from here.

Without safe and open debate we are doomed to be stuck in the dark ages. The 'visionaries' of long ago were treated as charlatans, too. Only time could prove them right. I wonder how many 'visionaries' there are out there that just keep their mouth shut to avoid the backlash.....scientists included.


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## Guest

Martinelv said:


> What you have just written is a classic failing of human understanding. And that's not being offensive, we all do it. You have found an article that says that NDE'S may exist independantly of our brain function. Fine.
> 
> But do you know how many more thousands of generally accepted scientific journals are out there that absolutely refute this. It is well known that at the point of brain stem death, that the cells around the retina temporaily activate, giving the impression of a 'tunnel of light'. Endorphins are relased at just prior to brain stem death, which gives the feeling of bliss. Isn't this entirely sensible? Paritucally when it has been verified time and time again.
> 
> We, as humans, forget the millions of people who don't experience anything spiritual during an NDE. Why is that? I'll tell you why. It's because we WANT to believe in life after death. We don't want to think that when we are dead, we are dead. We ingore the evidence like we would ignore our house burning down, as long as we kept our cherished beliefs.


I specifically removed the 'tunnel' aspects of my NDE post. I'm not interested in that portion of it. It has no bearing on what I was thinking about as far as DP is concerned. That article and others indicate verifiable aspects of a consciousness or awareness of activity, things, or people going on at the time the person was unconsciousness. THAT is the aspect that I'm interested in. NO 'tunnel' stuff.


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## Guest

I think I may have put my initial post in the wrong forum because my perspective is not necessarily spiritual or 'new age' or anything like that. I look at it as a nonphysical reality concept that doesn't have a spiritual or religious overtone. It might have a 'meta'physical (beyond physical) aspect but I'm reluctant to put it in the generally accepted definition of that category. It still smacks of 'new age' and tends to focus someone in that direction and away from positive consideration. The 'dots' can be connected differently, IMHO.

BTW, I consider myself in the 'gnostic' category but even that label doesn't completely describe my position. I'm not too fond of labels but they can be convenient for keeping a topic on point, for instance, as long as the label isn't mistaken for the topic. As in 'the map is not the territory.'


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## Guest

"That which is termed Gnostic, or Gnosticism, has no specific canon, or spiritual texts. "

As with so many other 'religious and spiritual' positions, there are tons of variations on a theme where 'gnosticism' is concerned. I tried to find the definition I saw on the internet a long while back that fit with my concept of it but I can't put my hands on it. It espouses free and open debate and discussion on all matters including spirituality or any other topic. That's my view. It's a 'nontribal' orientation to the world. :wink: No defined church, sect, cult, scientific view, etc. It's kind of an 'exploratory' way of being, you might say. I like that.


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## The Wraith

I sometimes wondor what the point of enlightenment is. What is its universal signifigance? What are we really striving for? When we finally reach the point in or spiritual evolution where we have ascertained all there is to know. What is next? If anything dr has almost seems to force people to examine these things, culpulsivley. So, to think that we are experiencing death in our own bodies isn't really far fetched. But to think that it has a purpose..I have a hard time grasping. Death has a time and a place, so why should someone experience death and life at the same time? If there is a God, and that God has control over us...he/she would be breeching their law that humans only have to die once.


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## Guest

The Wraith said:


> I sometimes wondor what the point of enlightenment is. What is its universal signifigance? What are we really striving for? When we finally reach the point in or spiritual evolution where we have ascertained all there is to know. What is next? If anything dr has almost seems to force people to examine these things, culpulsivley. So, to think that we are experiencing death in our own bodies isn't really far fetched. But to think that it has a purpose..I have a hard time grasping. Death has a time and a place, so why should someone experience death and life at the same time? If there is a God, and that God has control over us...he/she would be breeching their law that humans only have to die once.


You're asking questions that human beings have been asking practically from the dawn of time. What if they can't be answered in a way that is completely understandable to the biophysical brain?

Look at it this way: If our ancestors were neanderthals, look how far we've come. Who's to say what we might be like a thousand years from now. 'Pondering the imponderable' may be the way the mind 'stretches' to accomodate new information....connect new dots, so to speak. The 'hundredth monkey' could occur at any point in time as far we know.

Reaching for the unseen has historically brought it into the 'seen.' :wink: New theories, new ideas, new inventions all came from people that eat, drink, and sleep just like everybody else. Dreaming 'what if' is part of what we're all about. IMHO


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## The Wraith

kwgrid said:


> The Wraith said:
> 
> 
> 
> I sometimes wondor what the point of enlightenment is. What is its universal signifigance? What are we really striving for? When we finally reach the point in or spiritual evolution where we have ascertained all there is to know. What is next? If anything dr has almost seems to force people to examine these things, culpulsivley. So, to think that we are experiencing death in our own bodies isn't really far fetched. But to think that it has a purpose..I have a hard time grasping. Death has a time and a place, so why should someone experience death and life at the same time? If there is a God, and that God has control over us...he/she would be breeching their law that humans only have to die once.
> 
> 
> 
> You're asking questions that human beings have been asking practically from the dawn of time. What if they can't be answered in a way that is completely understandable to the biophysical brain?
> 
> Look at it this way: If our ancestors were neanderthals, look how far we've come. Who's to say what we might be like a thousand years from now. 'Pondering the imponderable' may be the way the mind 'stretches' to accomodate new information....connect new dots, so to speak. The 'hundredth monkey' could occur at any point in time as far we know.
> 
> Reaching for the unseen has historically brought it into the 'seen.' :wink: New theories, new ideas, new inventions all came from people that eat, drink, and sleep just like everybody else. Dreaming 'what if' is part of what we're all about. IMHO
Click to expand...

Well, I know I am asking basic questions. Just to establish a root basis. What is the point in pouring liquid into an already overflowing container? What I was saying is. If there is such thing as "soul perfection", what happens after that? Some may conclude death, others may say eternal paradise.

I do agree with you that dreaming is what were all about. But at some point we have to realize that we can only utilize what we have, and that trying to transcend from one state to another higher state prematurley can hopelessly just tangle things even more.

As far as Dp/Dr, and this may be stretching it a bit. I believe that it is the early stages of a reconfiguration of not only the psyche , but the structure of the brain itself. History shows that the cranium and capacity changes every thousand years or so, and I think it could be happening again.


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## Guest

The Wraith said:


> Well, I know I am asking basic questions. Just to establish a root basis. What is the point in pouring liquid into an already overflowing container? What I was saying is. If there is such thing as "soul perfection", what happens after that? Some may conclude death, others may say eternal paradise.
> 
> I do agree with you that dreaming is what were all about. But at some point we have to realize that we can only utilize what we have, and that trying to transcend from one state to another higher state prematurley can hopelessly just tangle things even more.
> 
> As far as Dp/Dr, and this may be stretching it a bit. I believe that it is the early stages of a reconfiguration of not only the psyche , but the structure of the brain itself. History shows that the cranium and capacity changes every thousand years or so, and I think it could be happening again.


I already posted something that might add a little to the first couple of your paragraphs.

As for the last paragraph: WHO KNOWS?? You could be 'right on.' I have 'suspicions' along those lines myself. :wink:


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## Scattered

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.


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## Guest

Scattered said:


> Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.


 :lol: :wink:

And sometimes things are not what they seem.... :shock: :lol:


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## sleepingbeauty

god i dont know why i keep coming back to this dpforum. i keep reminding myself not to.

first of all martin, how pray tell, did you connect sleep paralysis with nde, obe? you may have had sleep p., but that does not mean its the same as the other 2.

ive had all three. and they are NOTHING alike. not even in the slightest. sleep paralysis is a state of lucid dreaming. ive had it loads of times and i still do have it. i only ever got it whilst becoming aware of my dreaming and my mind waking before my body. its freaky as f#ck, but its not even related to obe, nde and neither is related to the other. whenever i would asteral project or have what is called, out of body experiences, it would always happen when i was fully awake and aware, usually when i was doing something completely normal, like opening a door or playing with my dolls. i know you would jump to call this a seizure, and im sure, in medical organic brain speach yes, im sure some kind of current was shorting in my brain, but the experience of flying past stars and gaseous clouds and galaxies at the speed of light was very real to me and absolutely NOTHING even close to the experience of mere sleep paralysis. and as far as near death, ive had that as well.. and i guess you could call where i went, purgatory, though i didnt know what it was or what word it was called at the time. all i know is that according to the doctors my heart stopped, and i was suddenly alone, in complete and total darkness. no sound, no body, no matter of any kind. not even a spec of dust to keep me company. just an infinate nothingness. that was horrifying, much more horrifying then sleep paralysis which is itself horrifying, and totally opposite of the exilleration i felt while astral.

just because you dont understand it, doesnt mean it ALL belongs in the same box labled X files.

:roll:


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## Martinelv

Oh dear. I'm speaking to the converted. Anyway...

Homeopathy only works by placebo. Fact. If you truely, absolutely believe it will work, it might. Fact. My friend, who died from Acute Myaloid Leaukemia, tried it as a last resort, after the predatory urgings from a homeopath. False hope. These people are criminals.

SB - NDE's, or OBE's, ARE related to Sleep Paralysis. Although different in nature, the same chemical 'hiccup' in the brain is related to all three. Fact. But, of course, you don't want to hear that because you WANT to believe it. It's like sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'la-la-la-not listening.'

As for NDE's or whatever, not being able to be verified in labatory conditions, it IS very convienient, whatever you say. Otherwise, we should just take everyones word for it, along with all the other junk that is out there. Besides, a labratory is just a room. And most NDE's are reported from labratories, or hospitals, so what's the difference?

I have an invisible leprachaun sitting on my shoulder. Prove that I don't.


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## sleepingbeauty

homeopathy curing something that is incureable once its established itself? uhhh.. why blame the homeopathist when common sense should have been your guide? :shock:

ive never used homeopathy. im sure its wonderful as preventative medicine though, which is the only medicine i advocate. of course whenever someone mentions prevention to you martin, you are the one going 'la la la la'. because you dont want to give up your pissing and moaning and debachery. dont think i dont know you baby. i was raised by someone exactly like you. i just had to endure an entire day of crybaby drunkeness. my dad is wayyy too comfortable in his 'living death' to even aknowledge any kind of HOPE. thats why anytime someone enters this forum with any kind of positivity, they get pissed on. pissed on, attacked, and shut the hell out. its gotten so bad around here that all the positive people are gone. i started out here 3 and a half years ago, before you even showed up martin, and i was deeper in it then you will ever know. but the difference between you and me, is that no matter how bad it got, i still kept hope alive. i didnt cling to my misery. i didnt revel in my crutches. i didnt post about how crappy my life is with the intense vim and vigor you do, like its cool or something. :roll:

im going to continue to strive for greatness. i love the happiness i have now, because i never had it before. and i know you hate happiness. because all you do is piss on anyone who has it. piss on me and my posts all you like martin. you, and your band of hopeless case whingers. just trust that the only one getting soiled my love, is you.


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## Guest

The Wraith said:


> <snipped> What I was saying is. If there is such thing as "soul perfection", what happens after that? Some may conclude death, others may say eternal paradise.


What the heck does anybody know about 'soul perfection?' Do you see anybody around that's walking on water or 'moving mountains?' We don't 'know from soul perfection.' It's all speculation. Nothing is perfect...absolutely nothing. It's all in a state of flux....change and always will be in the physical world as we see it.

This 'perfection' business was created by power and control freaks to keep us 'efforting' to reach some defined level of worthiness for the 'after life' based on THEIR criteria. We are to be so distracted by the effort to 'save our souls' that us 'underlings' don't have time to realize that we're already okay and every bit as good as they are....just a little more ignorant (this can be fixed), lazy and cowardly for not throwing them off a cliff for making us feel less than nothing if we're not perfect. It's been going on for millenia.

During a conversation with my sister yesterday, something came up about 'power and control' that made me think of a couple of good examples of lack of personal power. One of them had to do with the Israelites when they were subjects of the Pharaoh..or I should say slaves. There were 5 times more of them than the Egyptians yet they allowed themselves to be controlled. All they had to do was 'rise up' against them and it all would have been over in a heartbeat. The other example is the Holocaust victims...the jews (hmmm....same category of folks) not rising up against the Germans.

You know how the powerful get their power? The masses give it to them. Period. We're afraid of pain, we're afraid of death, we've been brainwashed into thinking all sorts of 'life after death' stuff if we just behave in such-and-such a way. We're also attached to pleasure and acquisition and averse to pain and loss and we think this particular existence that has our current 'name' on it is the only life we'll ever have. That statement is sure to open a can of worms. Bring it on!

Although other 'religious' or 'spiritual' teachings have said words to this same effect, the only place I can quote from is the Bible where Jesus says "These things I do, *you can do, and more*." He didn't say a damn thing about being able to do those things 'after death.' He was talking about here and now. I never, ever hear this being discussed. Topics are conveniently chosen that keep us wimpified and 'under control' to behave in life in such a way that 'after life' we're just so happy and at peace. blech!! Jesus, along with many other of that ilk have been so maligned, their words twisted to suit the agenda of power mongers and control freaks to keep us in the dark about our latent abilities....which, by the way, I don't personally feel are intended to be developed simply by 'believing' in somebody's 'name.' Their teachings, the accurate ones, are to be used to develop ourselves to have their knowledge and ability for our own sake in THIS life...or any other life. We've been taught to hold them up as some sort of mystical, magical being that we could never be as good as. To bow at their feet and beg their forgiveness for being so pathetic and unworthy. B--s--t!

Lots of stuff out there from 'emotional' to 'intellectual' to 'physical' to 'spiritual or esoteric' that can be read and dots connected. No point in re-inventing the wheel here. You can find out for yourself. All you gotta do have is a desire to know. No more, no less. This is not 'airy fairy.' Do your own thinking. Re-wire those neuronal paths!! Get off your butt and figure it out. It can be done. Others have done it and tried to show the way. We refuse to look because it threatens the status quo of our 'tribal' mentality. Reach for those stars!! Just the stretching for them will open doors in your mind, nevermind that you might actually grab one. :wink: You don't have to take my word for it. Go figure it out yourself! Use that stuff inside your head for something else besides somewhere for your face to sit.

[me dismounting lectern]


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## Guest

Martinelv said:


> Oh dear. I'm speaking to the converted. Anyway...
> 
> Homeopathy only works by placebo. Fact. If you truely, absolutely believe it will work, it might. Fact. My friend, who died from Acute Myaloid Leaukemia, tried it as a last resort, after the predatory urgings from a homeopath. False hope. These people are criminals.
> 
> SB - NDE's, or OBE's, ARE related to Sleep Paralysis. Although different in nature, the same chemical 'hiccup' in the brain is related to all three. Fact. But, of course, you don't want to hear that because you WANT to believe it. It's like sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'la-la-la-not listening.'
> 
> As for NDE's or whatever, not being able to be verified in labatory conditions, it IS very convienient, whatever you say. Otherwise, we should just take everyones word for it, along with all the other junk that is out there. Besides, a labratory is just a room. And most NDE's are reported from labratories, or hospitals, so what's the difference?
> 
> I have an invisible leprachaun sitting on my shoulder. Prove that I don't.


I'm beginning to think that you deliberately misread posts and probably other things as well, just to make others fire up their brain to argue with you. I think we've found your purpose in life. Good for you! It takes a lot of courage to 'come from' your position.

#1 As far as homeopathy goes, it has been shown to be no more of a placebo in double-blind tests than pharmaceuticals. Same ratio!!! Put that in your pipe and smoke it. Furthermore, it doesn't have 1/10th the level of side effect as pharmaceuticals and those 'side effects' are not in the same category of 'effect.' They are mild, shortlived and cause no longterm damage. As with doctors and/or pharmaceuticals, this usually only happens if the homeopath hasn't done his/her homework. This stuff has been around for over 250 years. The 'founder', Samuel Hahnemann, is the only physician (yes, he was a regular doctor) that has a statue of himself in honor of his work. No other doctor/physician/homeopath/naturopath/osteopath...ad nauseum...has a statue dedicated to them. That should say something right there.

#2 The NDE stuff. Do you read ALL the words in a post? Do you just snatch out what's convenient for your position and blow the rest to the wind? The 'tunnel' stuff was not verifiable, of course. I deliberately removed that particular event from my discussion. The 'view from the ceiling' and what was seen and heard WAS verifiable!!! End of memo.

You have an 'invisible leprechaun sitting on your shoulder?' I don't need to prove it. If you say it's there, go for it if it makes you feel better. No skin off my nose. :wink:


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## Guest

Martinelv said:


> Oh dear. I'm speaking to the converted.


Has it ever occurred to you that YOU are the one that has been 'converted' to not thinking things through? Lazy-minded, stubborn, stuck on a position that has tons of information to the contrary. Anybody can find information to support their position. It takes courage to allow for other possibilities outside one's own stand. You don't have to adopt it, just allow it. Besides, you seems so miserable. Who would want to join you in your position? It seems to be such an unhappy place.


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## Martinelv

That's a strange contradiction, considering I've had these thoughts all my life. Unless I was 'converted' in the womb, I can't understand your point. :shock:

I'm not unhappy. I'm just unsatisfied. It is a subtle difference, but one that is not entirely lost on everyone.

Lazy? I try not to be. I am proud enough to say that I cured myself of DR/DP by actively pursuing life with increased vigor. Subborn? That rich, coming from the religious.

And please, shower me with your plethora of information that is contradictory to my own. I've been waiting all my life for it, but you're welcome to try. The 'seeing the number' NDE is a joke in the scientific community. End of memo. Why do people jump to supernatual conclusions without exhausting the reality of it. I trust you still don't believe that thunder is the wrath of the god/s?

And no, I read all the post very carefully. Trust me, it's a hobby of mine.

And yes, if I am to believe the nonsense that you are promoting, you DO have to prove that there is an invisible leprachaun on my shoulder. End of memo. Then burdon of proof is on you.

I never used to 'think these things through' (whatever that means), because the non-existance of god/s seemed so obviously ridiculous I didn't bother. However, I had to 'think things through' when I did my post-grad degree, and, as difficult as this may seem to you, I am thinking very hard as I'm working night and day on my novel. I didn't have to think very hard to get my anthology of poetry published, so I guess that's lazyness on my part.

You speak of courage as is is something that you can buy from a shop, and is the exclusive 'right' of the religious. LOL. The religious are the mostly cowardly people on the planet. They need their god/s comfort blanket just to get through the day! LOL.

And, without wishing to offend you, your comments about Homeopathy are a lie. Although I'm sure it's unintentional on your part. I suggest you read the medical literature and don't just pick out the bits you want to read (like you accused me of). Much like those who proport to be Christians. They just pick the 'nice' bits out of the bible and ignore the rest. Apparently it's because we should take the bad bits in historical context !! LOL. Again, how convenient !!


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## Guest

Bottom line: Why do you persist in labelling me 'religious?' My sister would be rolling on the floor holding her stomach from the pain of the laughter. Who says '..the reality of it' hasn't been exhausted from a personal standpoint? Every day is a new day and we're not the last word in what humanity is or is going to be. People have been delving into the 'reality' of life for eons. It will never be exhausted. That looks like as much of a dead end proposition as consideration of other alternatives.

I congratulate you on 'curing' your DP/DR. You're very lucky. It doesn't equate to you having the 'cure' for everyone.

Okay, I'll allow that you read the posts. You're just not absorbing them. You remind me a lot of my sister. Your 'position' does not allow for change so there's no point arguing with you. Suit yourself.

'Medical' literature? God, I don't think I can contain my laughter. Those guys use to bleed people. They don't know from jack! They're as busy defending their position as you are. The 'modern' medical community hasn't been around for long, ya know?

BTW, nobody ever said homeopathy was perfect. But please do reassure me that the A.M.A. has it all covered!!!

Yep. You were born to be a button puncher. I honestly appreciate the opportunity to practice not allowing it to get to me. You were 'born this way.' My oh my. A gene pool that needs to have a warning sign placed on it. :wink:


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## Martinelv

Oh, please excuse me. I thought you were religious. My mistake.

And you're right, I don't have a cure for DP/DR. I wish I did. It sickens me to my core. I can only impart what helped me. And that's all. I don't offer quakery and crystal healing.

I'm not insulted by the 'gene pool' jibe. I find it funny, and I'm happy that you are laughing too. I've had much, much worse, as you can imagine, what with me daring not to agree with everyone.

Yes, I don't absorb the information that I don't agree with. What's wrong with that? I read it, disagree with it, and disgard it. I, unlike your good self no doubt, am not a sponge for every nonsensical idea that spews out of the mouths of the predators of the weak and vunerable.

Incidently, what is my position exactly ? I am open-minded (stop laughing at the back) to believe that some supernatural/paranormal experiences might have some basis in reality, but until they they come up with the proof, I can only be sceptical. I don't cross the road with my eyes shut, do you?


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## Guest

P. S. I 'cured' my DP with the 'support' of homeopathy...not just one or two remedies, but by trial and error on my own without even the help of a trained homeopath. I had already tried the 'medical' route.

That reminds me. I wanted to point out that 'placebo' can work the other way, too. If you have a lot of doubt or 'refusal' to get well, nothing will work. Aslo, some things for some people just can't be cured. As for the leukemia case, why do you jump on homeopathy? It looks to me like the A. M. A. and their comrade-in-financial-arms, the pharmaceutical companys, failed just as miserably. That's very sad but it happens both ways.


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## Guest

Martinelv said:


> Oh, please excuse me. I thought you were religious. My mistake.
> 
> And you're right, I don't have a cure for DP/DR. I wish I did. It sickens me to my core. I can only impart what helped me. And that's all. I don't offer quakery and crystal healing.
> 
> I'm not insulted by the 'gene pool' jibe. I find it funny, and I'm happy that you are laughing too. I've had much, much worse, as you can imagine, what with me daring not to agree with everyone.
> 
> Yes, I don't absorb the information that I don't agree with. What's wrong with that? I read it, disagree with it, and disgard it. I, unlike your good self no doubt, am not a sponge for every nonsensical idea that spews out of the mouths of the predators of the weak and vunerable.
> 
> Incidently, what is my position exactly ? I am open-minded (stop laughing at the back) to believe that some supernatural/paranormal experiences might have some basis in reality, but until they they come up with the proof, I can only be sceptical. I don't cross the road with my eyes shut, do you?


First of all, I apologize for the 'gene pool' jibe. My sister is very much like you and I'm in that same 'gene pool' so what does that say for me. har

I guess it's the way you express yourself. It seems more cynical than skeptical to me. My sister is loud and takes an 'attacked' posture when discussing religion. When I try to point out discrepancies in 'Christianity' she has a duck fit. I'm not saying I have the last word on anything at all. I like to discuss stuff. Your position is one that I use to hold. It's one that I feel like I've 'gone beyond.' I've been there, examined it extensively, and dismissed it as confining.....limiting.

And nobody said you had to take hold of and 'own' information outside your comfort zone. It's one thing to allow yourself to actively consider certain points and another to dismiss them out of hand. And you do leave out certain points. Example: that business about NDE and the 'tunnel' experiences. You kept harping on that point and saying 'not verifiable', no 'proof', etc., when I had removed that portion of NDE experiences at the very beginning of my very first post. It was not relevant to what I was theorizing about. Yet you kept 'going there' and I kept continually reminding you that it wasn't a part of the issue.


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## Guest

Martinelv said:


> <snipped>The 'seeing the number' NDE is a joke in the scientific community. End of memo. Why do people jump to supernatual conclusions without exhausting the reality of it. I trust you still don't believe that thunder is the wrath of the god/s?
> <snipped>
> 
> And yes, if I am to believe the nonsense that you are promoting, you DO have to prove that there is an invisible leprachaun on my shoulder. End of memo. Then burdon of proof is on you.
> 
> <snipped>
> You speak of courage as is is something that you can buy from a shop, and is the exclusive 'right' of the religious. LOL. The religious are the mostly cowardly people on the planet. They need their god/s comfort blanket just to get through the day! LOL.
> 
> And, without wishing to offend you, your comments about Homeopathy are a lie. Although I'm sure it's unintentional on your part. I suggest you read the medical literature and don't just pick out the bits you want to read (like you accused me of). Much like those who proport to be Christians. They just pick the 'nice' bits out of the bible and ignore the rest. Apparently it's because we should take the bad bits in historical context !! LOL. Again, how convenient !!


What does that 'seeing the numbers' mean? What are you talking about there? And not everybody jumps to 'supernatural conclusions'. It looks to me like you're jumping from one end of the spectrum of opinion to the other without any area in between. Some people simply allow for any possibility. They don't anchor themselves to either extreme.

I have read the medical literature and what it says about Homeopathy. They're in the business of defending their position, too.

I agree with the comment about Christians taking the bits they want, etc. But not all of them do that, just as not all people jump to the supernatural.

Who said anything about courage being the exclusive right of the religious? I don't think I said that. I gave a couple of examples of people being run over because of their religious positions. But the 'courage' part has to do with anybody that's being oppressed either externally or internally by pre-conceived ideas, brainwashing, upbringing, whatever you want to call it. If it limits you (editorial you), debilitates you, makes a 'victim' out of you, get rid of it!!


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## Guest

BTW, this IS the 'spirituality' forum. It follows that posts here would kinda sorta lean in that direction, wouldn't you say?

As for the 'sprituality' arena, the following pretty well sums it up for me:

"The aim of spiritual guidance is to *free a person from their own limitations*; *not dependent on *another's judgement, still less another's will."
--Pir Vilyat


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## falling_free

Martinelv said:


> And yes, if I am to believe the nonsense that you are promoting, you DO have to prove that there is an invisible leprachaun on my shoulder. End of memo. Then burdon of proof is on you.


their not lephacuans their self transforming machine elves :lol:


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## Guest

Martinelv said:


> <snipped?Lazy? I try not to be. I am proud enough to say that I cured myself of DR/DP by actively pursuing life with increased vigor. Subborn? That rich, coming from the religious.


Covered this, I think. I am not religious. And the 'lazy' aspect was not directed at you, personally, per se, and has nothing to do with activity that requires work and dedication such as your post-grad work and the work on your anthology, etc. BTW, kudos for all that!!



Martinelv said:


> And no, I read all the post very carefully. Trust me, it's a hobby of mine.


Yes, you probably did....while warping them out of context to fit into your particular matrix. Nothing wrong with that. The whole world does that.



Martinelv said:


> <And yes, if I am to believe the nonsense that you are promoting,...<snipped>


Nobody said you had to 'believe' anything at all. 'Nonsense' is like 'beauty.' It's all in the eye of the beholder.



Martinelv said:


> <I never used to 'think these things through' (whatever that means), because the non-existance of god/s seemed so obviously ridiculous I didn't bother.


Who said anything aboud god/s? I don't think I did. Are you replying to my posts or somebody else's. Train of thought jumping the track? :wink:



Martinelv said:


> And, without wishing to offend you,...<snipped


No problem. I've been wondering whether I had mastered, at least to some extent, being offended. You've been a real 'gauntlet' in that regard. I think I've just about made it over that hill. No worries. No offense taken.

BTW, what I say about homeopathy is NOT a lie. If you're using the medical community as evidence, then you're in deep chicken guano. If you ever come down with something like the flu, for instance, go see a homepath immediately. I was introduced to homeopathy via a sudden onset of chills and rigors and feeling real yucky. My sister had started using homeopaths on her pets, unbeknownst to me, (it's great for animals). She called me and I told her what was happening. She came running down to my house with a homeopathic called Rhus Toxicodendron (latin name). She gave me 3 tiny little pellets and told me to put them under my tongue. Bear in mind, at that point I knew absolutely nothing about homeopathy. I just knew I felt like crap and those little pellets looked pretty innocuous (sp?) to me so I said "What the heck." 15 minutes later every symptom I had was gone and I felt perfectly normal. About an hour later, it felt like the symptoms were coming back and she gave me another dose. Same thing happened: 15 minutes later all symptoms were gone, I felt normal, but this time they didn't come back. THAT experience is what propelled me toward looking into homeopathy. I admit it's complex but then human beings are complex. But so help me, when you find the right one, it's nothing short of a miracle. It can't be placebo because I've taken what appeared from my brief studying to be the right remedy and it didn't work. It didn't hurt me in any way, it just didn't work. More reading and thinking and trial and error (fortunately, homeopathic remedies are inexpensive) brought me to a remedy that DID work. That argues against placebo, right there, wouldn't you say? You can't take just any old pharmaceutical medicine and, in spite of believing in the A.M.A. or your lovable doctor, have it work. See what I mean?


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## Scattered

The nature of this problem creates a need to seek and sometimes destroy various types of arguments about existence and religion in general. That being said this forum is going to be a place where these ideas are thought about, and inevitably, argued about to some extent. Because of the nature of the illness, this is unavoidable. I believe a person should be able to harbor any type of negative view he or she sees fit. The only time this is inappopriate is when the view expressed is a personal attack, or a malicious attempt to hurt someone's feelings.

Martin's view may be percieved as negative and cynical and horrible or whatever, but thats only because people take any kind of jab at their religion as an attack on them, individually. Sometimes learning about, debating, and dismantling various ideas about spirituality is as much as part of the "life path" as anything else. If you wish to label this as being the "spiritual path" then you can do so.

The debate in this forum is predictable and largely unproductive. No one is going to change their views. The cynic or skeptic is going to continue to deny spirituality and the believer or theist is going to defend it in some way. People in general, as was said earlier, are largely going to adopt a view and selectively interpret evidence in such a way that is supports their preconceived notions. Being "open minded" is very rare if not almost impossible. Although this is true, I still personally believe we should continue the discussion. At the very least, we are able to get alot of information out in the open. Those without a vested interest, or those who decide to step back from their established views, can then evaluate whats left in the midst and decide for themselves.


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## Guest

Well said, scattered. I realize those things and agree.

I will point out that my responses in this particular thread had more to do with my posts being misread in the first place. I have no argument with someone not 'buying off' on what was said.

1. Being told that something I said was a lie will elecit a response.
2. A response using an argument that wasn't even part of the post but is injected as though it was will receive a response.

Both of the above have nothing to do with argument pro or con for a topic. It has everything to do with being understood in the first place.


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## sleepingbeauty

falling_free said:


> Martinelv said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, if I am to believe the nonsense that you are promoting, you DO have to prove that there is an invisible leprachaun on my shoulder. End of memo. Then burdon of proof is on you.
> 
> 
> 
> their not lephacuans their self transforming machine elves :lol:
Click to expand...

OH CHRIST FALLING FREE!!! :shock:

why did you have to go and post a sexy pic of martin with a flashing leprachaun on his shoulder right after i got done hating him for good??

martin do me a favor, and step away from the keyboard. no no... go me one better.. handcuff yourself naked to the bedpost after gluing your lips shut and pose pretty for the camera. 
theres a good boy. 8)


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## Martinelv

LOL. Excellent. :lol: :lol:

SB - You've done hating me? What ever have I done to you except disagree with almost everything you say.? :wink: Could that be the problem?

Incidently, I said that the Leprachaun on my shoulder is invisible. I have my suspicions that someone drew that on there, but, as with everything supernatural, you can never be sure.

Martin.x

:lol:


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## Martinelv

Well, wonders never cease. Scattered defending me. What next, a plague of locust? But I'm sure it won't last. :wink:

Kwgrid - If I think someone is lying, I will say so. I am not saying you are a liar, but the facts you speak of are lies, or at best, hearsay.

The old Martin, the evil Martin, used to come on this board and ly attack everyone with spiritual/religious/supernatural beliefs. I try not to anymore, but keep in mind that I find religiosity and, in particular, spirituality very distasteful, and in face anything that gives false hope extremely annoying.

And yes, you are absolutely correct. This is the place to discuss religious. Feel free to say whatever you want. But please let me disagree, however misinformed you think I may be.


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## Guest

Martinelv said:


> <snipped> This is the place to discuss religious. Feel free to say whatever you want. But please let me disagree, however misinformed you think I may be.


You're absolutely right. Fact is, I misinterpreted some things due to the way you said them. It reminded me of my sister, with whom I have frequent difficulties communicating. My apologies....admittedly, not entirely heartfelt. har

BTW, you're pretty amusing. :lol:


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## Homeskooled

I just want to say that, for the record, this is the first time in which I agree with the entirety of any of Scattered's posts. Oh, look - a plague of locusts. Not again...

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Guest

Homeskooled said:


> I just want to say that, for the record, this is the first time in which I agree with the entirety of any of Scattered's posts. Oh, look - a plague of locusts. Not again...
> 
> Peace
> Homeskooled


 :lol: LOL


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## Martinelv

SB - I've just reread one of your replies, and I must say I've rather miffed.

Unfortunately, you're married to Gav now, so now that this country has allowed Gay marriages, I'm going to asked Scattered over for a special man union.

The reason this is because we are so very similar. We think almost entirely in black and white. Although your emotinonal whims flucticate on a daily basis ( I remember a couple of years ago when you despsied all 'alternative' solutions!) you are as set in you ways as I am. You have suffered, more or less, more than anyone. I, in my (as you put it) self-pity, run a close second: leaukemia, DR/DP, divorce....ect...etc.

BUT, and this is the point; I feel no more sorry for myself than the average man on the street. I continue to live, write, strive to get published, chase women. I live. I beat DR by refusing to give in to self-pity. And hope ? Is that a joke? Almost every reply I give to someone crying out for help or threating the big 's' with the word HOPE. Do you not read this? Do you not remember be, many years ago, telling you the same?

I'm not a hero. I AM a weak man. However, you think this because I don't believe in what people promote on the spirtual board. But I always, which is (ahem) big of me, remind people that whatever gets them through the day, be it crystal healing or ketamine, is fine by me.

I'm going to ignore your comment about my friend who died because It doesn't dignify a respone.

Martin.x


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