# Why not to use the CILTEP stack



## odisa (Sep 2, 2013)

Disclaimer: I can't guarantee the information in this topic is 100% accurate. Also, I'm not trying to hate on Mr. Lindsay's creation; I'm simply stating that if you have DP, you might want to think twice before taking it long-term.

CILTEP is a nootropic stack, designed to *C*hemically *I*nduce *L*ong-*T**e*rm *P*otentiation.

To quote wiki:



> In neuroscience, *long-term potentiation* (*LTP*) is a long-lasting enhancement in signal transmission between two neurons that results from stimulating them synchronously.It is one of several phenomena underlying synaptic plasticity, the ability of chemical synapses to change their strength. As memories are thought to be encoded by modification of synaptic strength, LTP is widely considered one of the major cellular mechanisms that underlies learning and memory.


It consists of a PDE4 inhibitor, which would inhibit the degradation of cAMP. Another ingredient is Forskolin, which raises cAMP levels.

The inventor of the stack states the following:



abelard lindsay said:


> Luteolin probably does a lot of things.* The Mechanism of action that I am talking about in this thread involves lowering PDE4 and increasing cAMP thus leading to intracellular cAMP build up leading to easier activation of the CREB protein* which is the protein that takes short term memory and converts it into long term memory. Dopamine metabolism, as discussed in your study, is only tangentially related to all this.


source

Which, indeed, is true.

However, to quote from "The many faces of CREB":



> The transcription factor CREB is best known for its involvement in learning and memory. *However, emerging evidence suggests that CREB activity has very different roles--sometimes beneficial, sometimes detrimental--depending on the brain region involved. Induction of CREB in the hippocampus by antidepressant treatments could contribute to their therapeutic efficacy. By contrast, activation of CREB in the nucleus accumbens and several other regions by drugs of abuse or stress mediates certain aspects of drug addiction, and depressive and anxiety-like behaviors*. These complexities suggest that strategies that exploit regional differences in upstream factors or that target specific CREB-regulated genes, rather than CREB itself, could make a promising contribution to the treatment of neuropsychiatric conditions.


Some more work of the same author(s):



> *Elevated CREB expression increased immobility in the FST* (note: forced swim test)*, an effect that is opposite to that caused by standard antidepressants and is consistent with a link between CREB and dysphoria. Conversely, overexpression of mCREB decreased immobility, an effect similar to that caused by antidepressants. Moreover, the kappa opioid receptor antagonist nor-Binaltorphimine decreased immobility in HSV-CREB- and HSV-mCREB-treated rats, suggesting that CREB-mediated induction of dynorphin (an endogenous kappa receptor ligand) contributes to immobility behavior in the FST*. Exposure to the FST itself dramatically increased CREB function in the NAc. *These findings raise the possibility that CREB-mediated transcription within the NAc regulates dysphoric states.*


source

Simplified translation:
CREB transcription factor activation in the Nucleus Accumbens increases Dynorphin expression, thus KOR activation, (also stated in this article from the same author(s)), which is responsible for dysphoria, anxiety and depression. On the other hand, hippocampal CREB activation causes the opposite.

*However*, KOR (Kappa Opioid Receptor) activation has been extensively documented to induce depersonalization, derealization, visual distortions, and more in humans. Thus, regardless of the observation that hippocampal CREB activation elicits anti-depressive effects, nucleus accumbens CREB activation would ultimately contribute to more dissociation. CILTEP would cause this.

Anyway, this has been a quick write up, so I might've missed some things, in which case; please do let me know if I'm wrong.

One more interesting (and lengthy) article about Dynorphin and KOR

*Lastly, one highly interesting feature that nearly every drug of abuse has in common, is that they increase Dynorphin in one way or the other, and nearly every drug of abuse has been documented to be able to induce DP.*


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2014)

^^ Who cares?? This is typical 'grasping at straws'.

Ohhh and btw, there're already methods used (which are very effective) in helping ppl heal from dissociative disorders, just in case you didn't know already! Have you looked into that, or are you too busy shovelling pills down your throat?

What is it with the medical profession? It seems they really are expecting/hoping to come up with a pill. A pill that's going to cure ALL your DP woes!! Wouldn't that be great? You don't have to do anything except open your mouth and chuck it in! You don't have to alter your lifestyle ONE bit! Keep everything the same and just take the pills&#8230; hahaha

Ooppsies.. Sorry about the side effects. Lets just pretend they're from something else ok?

This 'extensive' research into all the different chemicals and different combinations of chemicals in the brain and how they all interact with each other.. and all the god dammed experiments carried out on every fucking living thing that ever inhabited this earth.. give us a break. We'll be sitting here for the next hundred years while you guys are still arguing about the best new path of research to take.

Why don't you just throw your white coats away and use the methods that are already proven to help heal people from dissociative disorders?? Too obvious?

I've got a question Odisa.. It's about the last line of your post.

*'Lastly, one highly interesting feature that nearly every drug of abuse has in common, is that they increase Dynorphin in one way or the other, and nearly every drug of abuse has been documented to be able to induce DP.'*

These drugs of 'abuse' can Induce dp? Documented huh? What are figures? How often do these drugs of 'abuse' induce dp? Or do they trigger dp?

Whatever...


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## odisa (Sep 2, 2013)

Philos said:


> I've got a question Odisa.. It's about the last line of your post.
> 
> *'Lastly, one highly interesting feature that nearly every drug of abuse has in common, is that they increase Dynorphin in one way or the other, and nearly every drug of abuse has been documented to be able to induce DP.'*
> 
> These drugs of 'abuse' can Induce dp? Documented huh? What are figures? How often do these drugs of 'abuse' induce dp? Or do they trigger dp?


Sigh.. take it easy on the extremist ranting man. If you can't form your opinion in a calm manner, please don't bother posting. Also, read the post before replying (titled "Why *not* to use CILTEP" which I'd presume to be congruent with your anti-medication propaganda). Here's a good example of the relationship between drugs of abuse (recreational drugs, whatever you may prefer to call them) and dissociation. Also, note that "documented" is a non-specific term, by which I was referring to both scholarly studies and personal experiences alike, which I did not cite due to considering this general knowledge in this community.

As for your unnecessary assumptive sarcastic remark about how medical research is searching for a magic pill, there are numerous reasons why that's ridiculous. Barely anyone in neuroscience gives a damn about DP. Furthermore, I have never stated that I am searching for a magic substance that will instantaneous cure all my woes; that would be impossible. But that doesn't mean that one can speculate about the possible mechanisms by which DP is mediated, and ways to counteract them, in order to better enable a person to make the changes they need to themselves. I am all for psychological approaches, but in some cases (e.g. when learning is impaired) this can be very difficult to achieve, which can needlessly prolong the duration of the disorder. Thus, it is warranted to at least entertain the idea that the ability to recover by self-work can be aided by use of exogenous therapy.

Clearly you have had a disappointing run-in with medication, either yourself or someone else you know (or you've been reading too much pop-science FUD news). Not all medication is evil; yes there are cases where they do more harm than good, but that is usually because of the incompetence of the prescribing physician (or yes, in some cases medications are pathetically inferior to what mankind can currently create).



Philos said:


> Why don't you just throw your white coats away and use the methods that are already proven to help heal people from dissociative disorders?? Too obvious?


Proven methods? Please kindly share; I would be interested in this.

Anyhow, I have no interest in further discussing the subject in this topic. If you would like to continue, please open a new topic that is more relevant and invite me to it, so as to not derail this thread. If you can add anything constructive pertaining to the theory in neuropsychopharmacological terms, then please do add.

edit: For anyone considering advancing this discussion, please further it here instead: http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/46408-to-med-or-not-to-med-debate-topic/


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2014)

Why sigh? Explain yourself. If you put things up on a public forum that's the least you can do.

What you seem to be doing is totally ignoring the obvious.. and pinning your hopes on some kind of pharma pill fantasy.


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