# How am I suppose to believe in a heaven?



## MobiusX (Jul 27, 2010)

when I don't even know if anything really exists (DR 24/7)? A guy was preaching to me, telling me to look at outside at the wonderful creation this God created, it was a nature scene, but I'm not impressed cause everything looks like a dream. To me, people make a big deal about this dream-like world of stuff they see. I went to Niagra Falls many years ago, everyone was so excited looking at the waterfall but I wasn't, I just looked at it like nothing, it was a strange experience to me cause I didn't know if I was even seeing it the same way they were, like something was missing.... I know that something exists cause I experience it every day even though I feel like I'm forced to play this game, life game, but the best I can call it is a dream. They say I have a disorder but I'm only half convinced the most.

Will this heaven Christians speak of will look more real than this world?


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## ValleyGirl (Nov 10, 2017)

I totally feel where you are coming from on this. I am a Christian and came very close to walking away from God completely because of the disconnect from dp. Belief is primarily based on feelings and when you cannot feel and nothing seems real, there isn't a lot to hinge that belief on.

I also understand wondering if you will know heaven is real or not. That is something I used to wonder and wory about even before I got dp. Because in this life, even in reality, it does seem so unreal. It literally is like a place in a fairytale. Just some far off place that you cannot even imagine. So I used to and still do sit and wonder how will we know it's real? Will it be like a dream or will we "wake up" and it will be reality? If we have dp in this life, will it feel like dp in heaven or will it feel like reality used to feel here?

I think that what it all comes down to in the end is a choice. That goes for everyone, dp'd or not. Belief is making the choice to step out in faith and faith, as the bible says, is the evidence of things unseen. You cannot prove there is a God anymore than you can prove that there isn't. Someone people make the choice to pick up a bible or torah or koran and believe that the words and characters in those books are real and true. Other people decide it's not for them. I think the important thing is that when you make your final decision, you are absolutely sure that it's the correct one. Because as my pastor says "Everyone is someone who is going to spend eternity somewhere". Personally, for me, I believe that there is a heaven and a hell and I'd rather spend eternity in heaven. And if there isn't a heaven, I've missed out on nothing. If you want to believe there is nothing after death, that's cool too. Just be sure of your choice because once you make it and die, you cannot go back.


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## flipwilson (Aug 19, 2006)

You're not suppose to believe in anything, and the last question you pose is impossible to answer. i wouldn't even waste the time wrapping the brain around it. If its there then so be it and when you finally exit this world then I guess you'll find out, but any claim otherwise is just wishful thinking and a giant assumption. Personally for me the Christian idea of Heaven and Hell are ideas of the ancient world which was uneducated and ignorant, therefor of no relevance to our society now . Plus the use of Hell as a bargaining tool is the work people who wanted to control by fear. The idea that a loving God would design and maintain what amounts to a torture chamber for his creation is a contradiction to the very definition of love. I would advise you to take anything Christians speak of with a grain of salt. peace.


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## ValleyGirl (Nov 10, 2017)

flipwilson said:


> You're not suppose to believe in anything, and the last question you pose is impossible to answer. i wouldn't even waste the time wrapping the brain around it. If its there then so be it and when you finally exit this world then I guess you'll find out, but any claim otherwise is just wishful thinking and a giant assumption. Personally for me the Christian idea of Heaven and Hell are ideas of the ancient world which was uneducated and ignorant, therefor of no relevance to our society now . Plus the use of Hell as a bargaining tool is the work people who wanted to control by fear. The idea that a loving God would design and maintain what amounts to a torture chamber for his creation is a contradiction to the very definition of love. I would advise you to take anything Christians speak of with a grain of salt. peace.


I think it's pretty ignorant to assume that all Chistians use hell as a scare tactic. That is saying that we are all mindless and get recruited into the God cult because we are terrified of what will happen if we don't. Then we turn around and brain wash everyone else. Why are the opinions and advise of Christians any less valid than your opinions and beliefs? Just as you are an intelligent adult capable of weighing all options and deciding what you believe, so am I and 99% of all other Christians in the world. We CHOOSE to believe that there is a heaven and hell and we decide we'd rather go to heaven. Some people believe there is a heaven and hell and choose hell. Some people are satan worshippers. Some people believe that when you die you live in your own chosen paradise. Some people believe in nothing after death. Because these people don't believe what you do, should we completely blow them off and "take anything they say with a grain of salt"? No we shouldn't. People are entitled to believe whatever they want and my belief is no less valid and requies no less respect than yours.


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## flipwilson (Aug 19, 2006)

ustabetinyfairypeople said:


> I think it's pretty ignorant to assume that all Chistians use hell as a scare tactic. That is saying that we are all mindless and get recruited into the God cult because we are terrified of what will happen if we don't. Then we turn around and brain wash everyone else. Why are the opinions and advise of Christians any less valid than your opinions and beliefs? Just as you are an intelligent adult capable of weighing all options and deciding what you believe, so am I and 99% of all other Christians in the world. We CHOOSE to believe that there is a heaven and hell and we decide we'd rather go to heaven. Some people believe there is a heaven and hell and choose hell. Some people are satan worshippers. Some people believe that when you die you live in your own chosen paradise. Some people believe in nothing after death. Because these people don't believe what you do, should we completely blow them off and "take anything they say with a grain of salt"? No we shouldn't. People are entitled to believe whatever they want and my belief is no less valid and requies no less respect than yours.


You seem oddly liberal and pluralistic in your viewpoint considering you're a Christian. Last time I checked the God of the bible was less tolerant than you. Do you think Muslim teaching is as valid as Christianity? Do you respect those that use scripture to create hate or violence?...... I am very discerning in what and who I listen to so I do take many peoples beliefs and opinions with a grain of salt not just Christians. I merely do not buy what people sell me, at least in any hasty fashion. My focus on Christianity is because he brought up Christians specifically. I don't assume all Christians use hell as a scare tactic, I know that the very God you believe in does. Although you wrote it in a more appealing way as most religious moderates do, the last sentence, "Just be sure of your choice because once you make it and die, you cannot go back.", is in the same vein. You have the choice not to believe but beware is essentially the message. You are right that people can believe whatever they want but that doesn't mean their belief is valid in the slightest nor does that mean the belief or idea deserves respect. I respect people but every belief a person holds is not worth respect or validation. Religion and/or faith doesn't exist in a bubble and any claims religion makes is open to critiques me or anyone else desire to give it.


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## ValleyGirl (Nov 10, 2017)

flipwilson said:


> You seem oddly liberal and pluralistic in your viewpoint considering you're a Christian. Last time I checked the God of the bible was less tolerant than you. Do you think Muslim teaching is as valid as Christianity? Do you respect those that use scripture to create hate or violence?...... I am very discerning in what and who I listen to so I do take many peoples beliefs and opinions with a grain of salt not just Christians. I merely do not buy what people sell me, at least in any hasty fashion. My focus on Christianity is because he brought up Christians specifically. I don't assume all Christians use hell as a scare tactic, I know that the very God you believe in does. Although you wrote it in a more appealing way as most religious moderates do, the last sentence, "Just be sure of your choice because once you make it and die, you cannot go back.", is in the same vein. You have the choice not to believe but beware is essentially the message. You are right that people can believe whatever they want but that doesn't mean their belief is valid in the slightest nor does that mean the belief or idea deserves respect. I respect people but every belief a person holds is not worth respect or validation. Religion and/or faith doesn't exist in a bubble and any claims religion makes is open to critiques me or anyone else desire to give it.


I believe that whatever is right for an individual is what is right for them. I know what I believe to be right but I'm not going to shove that down someone else's throat. And yes, I do believe that you should be sure what you believe before you die. You should be confident in where you are going to end up after death, be it where ever you decide. Death, as far as we know, is the point of no return and no one should leave this life unsure. Figure out what you believe now and be sure that's right for you so that you have that peace to take with you, what ever happens after this.

Well it's good that you cleared up that you discriminate equally. I responsed like I did because it sounded more like "don't listen to those Christians because I say they are wrong". We might be wrong, you might be wrong or someone else might be right. No one but those who have already died can say for sure what is to come. All you can know for sure is what you believe is right for you.


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## MobiusX (Jul 27, 2010)

Okay, I guess there isn't anything in the bible that talks about reality being different than on earth.

Another question, how can we have free will if we can't even choose the most important decision in life-- to be born. We are forced into this world without being given that choice. And according to the bible, you're either with God or against him. So that's another choice you don't have, you're automatically forced to participate in this.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

I think you will only find heaven if you are in the present moment, if you are thinking about the future and planning for when you die you will miss what's actually going on for you right now


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## omniel (Dec 26, 2010)

it is up to you to develop a relationship with God by searching for the answers until you find them

God is not cruel, or hateful or angry, what God is, is far beyond our comprehension, and certainly not confined by human emotion

ask and you shall recieve. develop your own personal relationship with God, dont let it be restricted by fears or other sorts of conditioning

i wish you all the best


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## pigandpepper (Sep 26, 2010)

"I don't believe in God, I believe in science."
--Esqueleto


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## ohwell (Oct 28, 2010)

tofunk said:


> "I don't believe in God, I believe in science."
> --Esqueleto


That's a stupid quotation. Science is all about observation not belief.


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## ohwell (Oct 28, 2010)

ustabetinyfairypeople said:


> I believe that whatever is right for an individual is what is right for them. I know what I believe to be right but I'm not going to shove that down someone else's throat. And yes, I do believe that you should be sure what you believe before you die. You should be confident in where you are going to end up after death, be it where ever you decide. Death, as far as we know, is the point of no return and no one should leave this life unsure. Figure out what you believe now and be sure that's right for you so that you have that peace to take with you, what ever happens after this.
> 
> Well it's good that you cleared up that you discriminate equally. I responsed like I did because it sounded more like "don't listen to those Christians because I say they are wrong". We might be wrong, you might be wrong or someone else might be right. No one but those who have already died can say for sure what is to come. All you can know for sure is what you believe is right for you.


You're bright. To the believer his-her universe.


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

MobiusX said:


> Okay, I guess there isn't anything in the bible that talks about reality being different than on earth.
> 
> Another question, how can we have free will if we can't even choose the most important decision in life-- to be born. We are forced into this world without being given that choice. And according to the bible, you're either with God or against him. So that's another choice you don't have, you're automatically forced to participate in this.


*We are forced into this world without being given that choice.*

I'm probably unique with this view but life is a gift, and before birth there wasn't existence. Nobody forced anyone through some sort of portal from another dimension. You can embrace life and be happy. Or not. Is this a forced thing? Are we forced to eat? To breath? Should we be ungrateful/perturbed that we need air, food, water and gravity? Or should we instead work with the parameters of our existence with zest? Life has much to offer even if we suffer DP/DR.


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## MobiusX (Jul 27, 2010)

Visual Dude said:


> *We are forced into this world without being given that choice.*
> 
> I'm probably unique with this view but life is a gift, and before birth there wasn't existence. Nobody forced anyone through some sort of portal from another dimension. You can embrace life and be happy. Or not. Is this a forced thing? Are we forced to eat? To breath? Should we be ungrateful/perturbed that we need air, food, water and gravity? Or should we instead work with the parameters of our existence with zest? Life has much to offer even if we suffer DP/DR.


Maybe some don't feel like playing these biblical games of choosing either God or Luficer's side. But that game can only take place if you're born, another choice we are not given like I already said. So this free will is not what many say it is.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2011)

MobiusX said:


> Maybe some don't feel like playing these biblical games of choosing either God or Luficer's side. But that game can only take place if you're born, another choice we are not given like I already said. So this free will is not what many say it is.


The choice was on your parents to have sex.


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

ThoughtOnFire said:


> The choice was on your parents to have sex.


Exactly.


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## ValleyGirl (Nov 10, 2017)

MobiusX said:


> Maybe some don't feel like playing these biblical games of choosing either God or Luficer's side. But that game can only take place if you're born, another choice we are not given like I already said. So this free will is not what many say it is.


I think that you're missing the point. Do you realize that in every ejaculation 50 to 500 million sperm are released? There are only just over 8 million 900 people in New York city right now. So in on ejaculation of your father's sperm there was the possibility of creating 62 TIMES the population of New York City and out of all of those sperm, you were created. Do you realize that it was no cosmic mishap that it was you and not the 499 million other people that could have been created? Do you see how incredibly special that is? That out of all of those possibilities, you were willed into existance. Yes, you had no choice but that is because you were meant to be here. Your life has a purpose and you and not anyone else were meant to live it. I think that it's worth appreciating that incredible gift instead of dwelling on how you had no choice.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2011)

ustabetinyfairypeople said:


> I think that you're missing the point. Do you realize that in every ejaculation 50 to 500 million sperm are released? There are only just over 8 million 900 people in New York city right now. So in on ejaculation of your father's sperm there was the possibility of creating 62 TIMES the population of New York City and out of all of those sperm, you were created. Do you realize that it was no cosmic mishap that it was you and not the 499 million other people that could have been created? Do you see how incredibly special that is? That out of all of those possibilities, you were willed into existance. Yes, you had no choice but that is because you were meant to be here. Your life has a purpose and you and not anyone else were meant to live it. I think that it's worth appreciating that incredible gift instead of dwelling on how you had no choice.


OMG I've had this same thought about sperm! Can't believe somebody else out there GET'S IT! Haha...Awesome. And to add on to that, think about all the chance meetings your great great great so and so had to have to meet your other great great great so and so. And all of their sperm had to have great great so and so and ETC ETC...It's just..*impossible*...that you would be here and not somebody else.


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## ohwell (Oct 28, 2010)

ThoughtOnFire said:


> OMG I've had this same thought about sperm! Can't believe somebody else out there GET'S IT! Haha...Awesome. And to add on to that, think about all the chance meetings your great great great so and so had to have to meet your other great great great so and so. And all of their sperm had to have great great so and so and ETC ETC...It's just..*impossible*...that you would be here and not somebody else.


If you were not here, you would not have wondered. That's called selectivity effect.


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

MobiusX said:


> Maybe some don't feel like playing these biblical games of choosing either God or Luficer's side. But that game can only take place if you're born, another choice we are not given like I already said. So this free will is not what many say it is.


It seems that the real problem you are suffering is from past abuse. You seem to feel you don't have any choices. A child is dependent and has very few choices. But that was then, not now.

You find that looking a Niagara Falls has no emotional significance. You are not _moved_ because your ability to feel (DP/DR) is blunted by the past. Instead you feel anger/resentment about choices.

I am not saying you should not explore existential or theological thoughts. But I am saying that you need to work to gain your positive feelings. You need to discover your power and strength - that you have choices.

It is true that in respects freedom is an illusion - there is only freedom within boundaries. We must eat to stay alive. We must work to pay rent so we have a place to sleep. We must sleep or our brain goes berserk. But within the boundaries there is a lot of freedom and choice. Goals we can set and work toward. And feel the rewards of success. There are so many things possible that even if a person lived forever there would still be things to do.

Things you could choose: learn to play a musical instrument (even compose), learn to draw or paint, cook or bake delicious foods, make new friends, reach out to those who suffer as a volunteer, hike, swim, &#8230; the list is endless.

Consider focusing on what you _can_ do. Empower yourself and you will feel a lot better - regardless of the issue of God vs Satan.


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## flipwilson (Aug 19, 2006)

Visual Dude said:


> It seems that the real problem you are suffering is from past abuse. You seem to feel you don't have any choices. A child is dependent and has very few choices. But that was then, not now.
> 
> You find that looking a Niagara Falls has no emotional significance. You are not _moved_ because your ability to feel (DP/DR) is blunted by the past. Instead you feel anger/resentment about choices.
> 
> ...


Well said. Theological questioning and obsession with God and Satan and all the other horseshit fed to us by the bible helped lead me down this horrible path. Life is not lived in just the mind. Life is doing, it is experiencing and participating. Even with this disorder relief will only be found in being pro active. Like I said before, take it from someone who lived a christian life and pondered these things for 26 years...IT GETS YOU NOWHERE. *All it does is lead to more questions to which there will most likely be no answers.* Think of it this way MobiusX, if you "figure out" Christianity and all these deep questions then whats next? Now you have to explore Islam and Buddhism and Hinduism and god knows how many other belief systems and philosophies before you are satisfied and ready to live. this is assuming of course you're asking these questions as someone seeking truth. If you're asking these out of fear then let me reiterate, there is no hell. It cannot exist because a loving God cannot without contradiction create such a place. And in the end if we all burn then fuck it, we had no chance anyway.







Seriously even if you can't draw go do a self portrait just for shits, it will be far more rewarding then pondering useless info. peace.


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

Just be true to yourself, nothing else matters.


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## EverDream (Dec 15, 2006)

surfingisfun001 said:


> Just be true to yourself, nothing else matters.


Well said. That basically sum up everything, lol.


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## omniel (Dec 26, 2010)

MobiusX said:


> Maybe some don't feel like playing these biblical games of choosing either God or Luficer's side. But that game can only take place if you're born, another choice we are not given like I already said. So this free will is not what many say it is.


do you remember before you were born

how do you know you weren't given that choice


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## deadtoself (Apr 13, 2009)

MobiusX said:


> Will this heaven Christians speak of will look more real than this world?


"For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." (1 Corinthians 13:12)

Also, I encourage you to read John's description of heaven and the new Jerusalem in Revelation 21 & 22. Sounds more vivid than I can imagine... Peace.


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## pigandpepper (Sep 26, 2010)

ohwell said:


> That's a stupid quotation. Science is all about observation not belief.


It's a stupid quotation because it's from Nacho Libre. I meant it as a joke.


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## ohwell (Oct 28, 2010)

tofunk said:


> It's a stupid quotation because it's from Nacho Libre. I meant it as a joke.


Sorry, I did not know who Nacho Libre was.


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## Sleepwalker (Dec 4, 2008)

tofunk said:


> "I don't believe in God, I believe in science."
> --Esqueleto


God created science.


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