# How is DP not just PTSD?



## never_giving_up (Jun 23, 2010)

I've been realising recently that I am constantly in a fight or flight state of mind/body.

I was just wondering, what really, do you think is the difference between DP and PTSD?

For me, PTSD includes lots of flashbacks, where DP doesn't. I really can't see any other difference but that.

Basically, I think that DP/DR and PTSD are one in the same.


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## ZachT (Sep 8, 2008)

never_giving_up said:


> I've been realising recently that I am constantly in a fight or flight state of mind/body.
> 
> I was just wondering, what really, do you think is the difference between DP and PTSD?
> 
> ...


I understand what you mean. I also have the flashbacks too. But I dont think everyone who has DP has PTSD symptoms.


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## DiscoStick (Dec 13, 2009)

I wouldn't say that I have PTSD, but I had traumatic experiences that I get flashbacks with.

I guess the difference for me is that my DP (DR in particular) is triggered by events in the present, while any PTSD-ish things are just bad flashbacks to things. I tend to get more DP when PTSDish things happen, more DR when I'm caught in the present by anything.


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## raphus cucullatus (Feb 6, 2008)

From my traumatic point of view I think this is how it works.

PTSD eventually wears off, at the least the signs. I went through all of it, the anger outbursts, depression, revenge... you can google the list. Flashbacks can still exist with some people, but if the dissociation can mask it enough it just won't, it will be blocked out completely (sometimes the entire memory so it's not even easy to get flashbacks) 
BIG things like scents or sounds could trigger a flashback for me, it would have to be drastic.

After that I was left with DP, and it's 5 years later now.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Perhaps in DP the nervous system is stuck in contraction or off, while with with PTSD it cycles to over-arousal:










http://www.traumahealing.com/somatic-experiencing/index.html


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## rightwrong99 (Apr 17, 2011)

never_giving_up said:


> I've been realising recently that I am constantly in a fight or flight state of mind/body.
> 
> I was just wondering, what really, do you think is the difference between DP and PTSD?
> 
> ...


I 100% agree that DPDR is a form of PTSD. Maybe even worse though because there's a chronic form of disconnection which makes it near impossible to work on any issues. 
It is possible for the nervous system to be incredibly wound up and anxious and traumatized even if the person is seemingly unaware of it.
And btw, diagnoses are stupid. People on here are gonna go look PTSD up on wikipedia and be like I dont have ptsd blahblahwahhh wahhhh but then said that theyve had a bunch of traumatic experiences or a shitty childhood.

Listen people -> IT IS NOT HARD TO BE TRAUMATIZED. You dont need a serial killer to slaughter your family in front of your eyes to be traumatized. It can be something as simple as your mom not holding you enough or giving you enough eye contact when you were 2 years old. Thats all it takes.


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## violetgirl (Apr 11, 2011)

Great post NewYork

Trauma can be ANYTHING. It can be a series of soft traumas to just one big event. Having an emotionally distant parent, can be traumatic. 
And yes, having DP makes is almost impossible to work on your issues. Because of the nature of DP it disconnects you from your pain, so how can you even begin to work on your trauma. And that's not taking into consideration the fact that many people have no idea they are traumatised. Emotional abuse is hard to spot. 
Poor attachment during childhood can trigger DP. A mother with post natal depression can traumatise a child.

Dissociative disorders don't just pop up out of nowhere, for no reason.

I would recommend something called Trauma Release Exercises which have helped me a lot. Sometimes we have no idea just how traumatised me are, it can be buried deep inside of us. And the TRE is a great way of releasing the trauma, without having to talk about it or relive stuff.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2012)

This comes up every few months. DP is not PTSD.

Interesting, I just saw my psychiatrist, a resident who is doing research so he has seen patients of all types, and is very interested in my case. He spoke recently to an individual at the VA Hospital here and is very interested in dissociation/depersonalization, etc. This individual sees DPD as a distinct syndrome. At least in my case. Chronic. He also notes there maybe a number of triggers to DP, but he is very interested in the opiate antagonist analogy, and even recommended I might try Natrexone/Naloxone.

Though I cam from an abusive family and both know my case, from my webiste and the work of Dr. Sierra, I am not considered to have PTSD, and never was.

As noted in its pure form, as in a Veteran, the key thing about PTSD is trauma can be just about anything ... though it is mainly LIFE THREATENING, such as in war, rape at knifepoint, etc. The KEY is not the trauma itself but HOW THE INDIVIDUAL PERCEIVES THE TRAUMA. Only a certain percent of War Veterans develop PTSD, so they have a predisposition.

Also, if you look at any description of PTSD, vs. DP ... the SPECIFIC criteria are different.

And the concept of a "flashback" ... I don't know what people here are describing, but in PTSD, an army Vet will drop to the ground when s/he hears a car backfire, certain it is gunfire or a bomb. The individual relives the horror of a fellow soldier's head being blown off and will literally sometimes hallucinate his house in flames. He/she also startles very easily, becomes angry/agitated easily. Some may experience DP, but that is NOT a key symptom. If it were, we would hear more about it.

There may be DP, or "this isn't really happening" during such an event, but I'm not sure those are even the same things.

DPD is a severe perceptual distortion, the cause of which may be many things. And it occurs in biology/neurology -- stroke, migraine, epilespy.

TRUE PTSD, in the strict definition means one truly beileves they will likely die. We recently had a severe tornado here wherein an entire portion of a town was destroyed. There was shock, acute stress, but I'd gather only some might GET PTSD, that is perhaps dreaming over and over and over of the tornado. Worrying too much when more storms come that aren't as serious. But overall the town is rebuilding and moving on.

DP is also possibly going to be removed from Dissociative Disorders. The one thing that distinguishes it from the other dissociative disorders (which are NOT connected to PTSD), is that there is NO LOSS OF MEMORY during the dissociative experience. Amenestic fugue, dissociative amnesia, and DID all have times where an individual loses a memory for events. DPD does not.

If you look at the Merck criteria, and more serious research out there, and there is more and more FINALLY ... it is being viewed as a neurologicl/medical/biological problem. I am trying to access a recent article ... or may get a copy from my psyhiatrist ... in Biological Psychiatry addressing the opiate receptor theory.

And I often believe now, more and more, that though I was abused, I may simply have had DP/DR on top of that. And the abuse made in worse.

I have not heard from this VA Hospital individual who WORKS in a VA Hospital of ANY connection in the two disorders. He sees PTSD, but he is also interested in Dissociation. He makes NO LINK between the two.

Another example of PTSD -- a friend experienced. She was in a serious auto accident, where she injured her back, her hips, was full of glass. She thought she was going to DIE, literally. It took her six months to get back into a car to drive as she was CERTAIN she would die in a car accident. She would have dreams over and over of the accident. These things slowly faded. She does not know what DP is and I have tried to describe it to her in a million ways.

We can't keep second guessing here. And yes, diagnoses are moved into other categories as more research occurs. But all illnesses occur on a spectrum and can be triggered by many different things. We are unique.

At this time, I have read/heard nothing that would indicate these two disorders are the same or that they are related, save someone with PTSD may have DP/DR transiently, or right during or after a severe traumatic incident or series of traumatic incidents threatening life. Natural disasters, war, rape at gunpoint, robbery at gunpoint, the WTC disaster, etc.

DOGS, military dogs, get PTSD. They become anxious, shy, startle easily, avoidant.

Any "flashbacks" we have may be repeated memories of certain things -- I have had nightmares arguing with my mother for years. That isn't really a flashback as much as it is trying to sort things out. And some of it will never be sorted out.

IMHO supported by research and speaking with therapists, reearchers, hearing veterans speak, live and in documentaries, etc.

And in 53 years, never having been diagnosed with anything but chronic anxiety, depression, and finally, fully acknowledged that I have DPD -- that again, is my official diagnosis AGAIN. Chronic, unremitting. And I am apparently on the best med combo for ME -- Lamictal, Klonopin, Celexa. I am afraid to change that. I'm also on a cancer med that can be affected by even a different antidepressant from the one I'm taking.

If I am wrong, and research reveals something else, I will happily change my POV.

And again ... the study of DP going back to the late 1800s ... found no connection between this and what at that time would have been called "battle fatigue" later "shell shock" and later PTSD.

This is like saying well, it's difficult finding a good medical analogy, but there certainly must be one ... severe coughing due to lung cancer IS the same as severe coughing related to Cystic Fibrosis. They are DIFFERENT diseases, caused by DIFFERENT triggers/genetics, though they may have the common symptom of endless horrible coughing and difficulty breathing, etc.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2012)

Pablo's chart refers to PTSD in a significant way ...

It does NOT note "feelings of unreality" and it notes typical PTSD responses:

Dissociation is mentioned, but that can mean many different things. And being "shut down" means many different things. And memories are clear and intrusive. There is no "forgetting."

Exaggerated Startle
Hyper vigilance
Hostility/Rage

THESE are the typical hallmarks of PTSD. Does this sound like DP/DR which is a very specific perceptual distortion of whether or not the world is real or one's body is one's own? I say no.

http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/mental_health_disorders/anxiety_disorders/posttraumatic_stress_disorder_ptsd.html?qt=PTSD&alt=sh

*Posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is characterized by recurrent, intrusive recollections of an overwhelming traumatic event.*

Events that threaten death or serious injury can cause intense, long-lasting distress.
Affected people may relive the event, have nightmares, and avoid anything that reminds them of the event.
Treatment may include psychotherapy (supportive and exposure therapy) and antidepressants.

*Experiencing or witnessing traumatic events that threaten death or serious injury can affect people long after the experience is over. Intense fear, helplessness, or horror experienced during the traumatic event can haunt a person.*

Events that can lead to posttraumatic stress disorder include the following:

*Engaging in combat
Experiencing or witnessing sexual or physical assault
Being affected by a disaster, either natural (for example, a hurricane) or man-made (for example, a severe automobile accident)*

Sometimes symptoms do not begin until many months or even years after the traumatic event took place. If posttraumatic stress disorder has been present for 3 months or longer, it is considered chronic.

Posttraumatic stress disorder affects at least 8% of people sometime during their life, including childhood (see Mental Health Disorders in Children: Posttraumatic Stress Disorder). Many people who undergo or witness traumatic events, such as combat veterans and victims of rape or other *violent acts,* experience posttraumatic stress disorder.

Symptoms

In posttraumatic stress disorder, people have frequent, unwanted memories replaying the traumatic event. Nightmares are common. Sometimes events are relived as if happening (flashbacks). Intense distress often occurs when people are exposed to an event or situation that reminds them of the original trauma. *Examples of such reminders are anniversaries of the traumatic event, seeing a gun after being pistol-whipped during a robbery, and being in a small boat after a near-drowning accident.*

People persistently *avoid things that are reminders of the trauma.* They may also attempt to avoid thoughts, feelings, or conversations about the traumatic event and avoid activities, situations, or people who serve as reminders. Avoidance may also include memory loss (amnesia) for a particular aspect of the traumatic event. *People have a numbing or deadening of emotional responsiveness and symptoms of increased arousal (such as difficulty falling asleep, being vigilant for warning signs of risk, or being easily startled). Symptoms of depression are common, and people show less interest in previously enjoyed activities. Feelings of guilt are also common. For example, they may feel guilty that they survived when other people did not.*


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2012)

I would say the symptoms of "stuck on off" would be considered more SIDE EFFECTS of a CHRONIC battle with DP which saps energy.

It seems similar, but it isn't.

And it has been noted recently that Hoarder/Cluttering is NOT OCD. It may be placed in "anxiety disorders" -- not OCD specifically. There are reasons for different criteria and CATEGORIES as the correct diagnosis yields the bet outcome re: correct treatment.

Also, many here, as I see so often are self-diagnosed, or misdiagnosed.

I have faith in biological/neurological research more than in psychiatric research.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2012)

Sorry, last PS. As for DP or anything else "coming out of nowhere" -- many medial problems "come out of nowhere" or can be predicted as being likely to occur.

Mental illness clusters in families. It is known schioprhenia, bipolar, etc. are clearly medical and can easily be genetically inherited going down generations. I have such a variety of mental illnesses in my family I can't rattle them off again. Just about everything serious under the sun. And there is a clear picture of inheritance on one side of the family vs. the other.

And recently, this US soldier in Afghanistan who massacred a group of innocent Afghan civilians. He was going on a fourth tour of duty. I believe he just lost it. But there are many other soldiers who have done SIX tours and seen the same horrors, sufferend from not seeing their families, been injured, seem friends die right and left ... young people. This individual had some predisposition to "lose it" -- and this is a volunteer army. Professional soldiers.

For all intents and purposes my breast cancer "came out of nowhere" and yet both my mother and maternal aunt had it, though I do not have the breast cancer gene. My maternal Aunt died at age 54 from it. My mother did not even need chemo, took no medication and it never recurred.


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## violetgirl (Apr 11, 2011)

Dreamer* said:


> This comes up every few months. DP is not PTSD.


Says who?

We are only beginning to understand how trauma effects people. Which book or system are you goin by? The psychiatric system is full of crap, as far as I'm concerned. It's obsessed with putting things in the right groups, not about helping people.

I think it's so dangerous to put all this medical jargon on here, it's all just opinion!

OCD/ anxiety/ DP/ eating disorders/ alcoholism. They're all maladaptive coping mechanisms. All ways of coping with pain.

Doesn't matter about semantics or getting the proper names for things.

Dreamer, you need to stop being so hung up on details, and start looking at the bigger picture!


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## violetgirl (Apr 11, 2011)

Huggy Bear said:


> It is true that the symptoms of people diagnosed with PTSD are largely different from the symptoms we as DP sufferers experience. But that doesn't mean that trauma is not involved in both cases. It's just a different form of trauma.
> DP sufferers, on the other hand, usually have experienced emotional trauma that goes beyond what they can bear, understand or process. The problem is that our society does not acknowledge this kind of trauma - it is too subtle, not obvious enough and a very subjective experience.


This is so true. So many forms of childhood trauma are just accepted. It could be parents divorcing, being moved around a lot from school to school, being adopted, an ill sibling. Even forms of physical disciple are still acceptable, but it's traumatising. And even sexual abuse in the form of emotional incest is acceptable-daddy's girl/ princess, and mummy's boy. It's crazy how much abuse is tolerated!

Emotional abuse is so hard to spot. Having narcissitc parents would rob you of your identity and self-esteem, yet nobody would spot it because they are so good at putting on a front. Even not being allowed to express strong emotions is invalidating and doesnt allow a child to grow emotionally.


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## kate_edwin (Aug 9, 2009)

They ma have similar features
but they aren't the same thing. I have dp
from
trauma and I've never really fit the dx of ptsd. Dissociation can be part of ptsd, but it doesn't have to be.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2012)

violetgirl said:


> Says who?
> 
> We are only beginning to understand how trauma effects people. Which book or system are you goin by? The psychiatric system is full of crap, as far as I'm concerned. It's obsessed with putting things in the right groups, not about helping people.
> 
> ...


Says who? LOL. You didn't read my post at all. It is full of resources. I don't care, but whatever.

Violetgirl, I always seem to make you upset and that is not my intention. I am simply very involved in mental health advocacy and come in contact with many professionals, sufferers, etc.

I would ask you again ... do we disregard the accounts of War Veterans, see post below from the ReMind website ... are THEY not telling the truth about THEIR experiences? They describe certain symptoms that torture them. This particular cluster of symptoms is common to THEM. WE have a cluster of symptoms common to US. There may be a slight overlap, but this is a particular type of trauma, and a specific response to it.

To see the Forest, you need to learn about many trees. And I explained, I hold more hope in neurological/biological research than psychiatry on its own. I also said that if proven otherwise, I will change my stance. Individuals with PTSD have also been trying to be heard, get noticed, and it has only become possible now as medicine allows soldiers to survive horrific injuries that they would NOT have survived in earlier wars, or at least US soldiers from Iran, Afghanistan, Desert Storm.

*Also, re: Naloxone. As I said, for the first time, I have been offered Naloxone by my resident psychiatrist who took the time to research my illness, read my website, read Dr. Sierra's book, and then speak to another doctor at the VA Hospital here. My psychiatrist is at the University of Michigan. The individual at the VA hospital -- deals with Veterans, that's what a VA hospital is. Hearing the details of my case, he said outright, I have DPD. This is not what many of his other veteran patients have which is PTSD, and TBI. I think he would know the difference.*

*I don't want to try Naloxone and won't. I've heard many bad things about it here. But the fact that my doctor is aware of it, that it was recently mentioned in a current article of Biological Psychiatry means something.*

One has to start somewhere. And understanding what we have and what we don't have, can lead us to answers.

http://remind.org/
*ReMind, The Bob Woodruff Foundation*

Individuals on the website there are encouraged to post their stories or comments. 
Bob Woodruff is a well known journalist from my state who suffered serious head injuries while embedded with troops. He knows PTSD as well. Personally. I have read what he has written. Personal accounts.



> Timothy 49 E-3 United States Navy Waco, TX United States
> I am a veteran who suffered PTSD due to 2 different aircraft crashes. I worked on the hanger deck during the first one, and witnessed the second. between these two crashes alone, I lost 18 shipmates. For years, until the 1990's the VA refused to admit that PTSD existed for anyone but Vietnam Vets. I am finally getting treatment for it through the VA. I am looking for any fellow vets who are going to Baylor University or McLennan Community College for the purpose of forming a support group. I can be contacted either at [email protected], [email protected], or on Facebook.


This soldier's email is out there and he is on FB. I'm sure if you wished to talk with someone with PTSD, and I have sat listening to groups of Veterans speak of it, you would simply gain a greater perspective. I also have a good friend whose son served three tours of duty in Iraq and Af.... he does not have PTSD thank God, and he doesn't have DP either. He actually lost his hearing! He however is doing very well with a special implant and his mom is so happy that he will not return. She watches for PTSD in him. So far, so good. He has seen death, and escaped death.

And Violet, you know I came from a very sick, destructive family. I am angry and sad about it. My goal is to educate and spread the word. Again, you don't have to read what I post, and I have no clue how information supported by current heavy duty medical research can be damaging. If you wish to become a doctor or a lawyer or anything else, you need to understand MANY things. If I can get a copy of the most current research in that journal I'll post it. NO, we don't have answers, but we are moving along. Scientific knowledge is dangerous? *facepalm* You learn, you sort through, you question, you form an opinion. I may be right or wrong, but on this topic I am pretty well convinced. IMHO.

*Is this entire ReMind organization lying? Not trying to help its members? Are soldiers NOT talking about DP/DR for some reason. I thank God that PTSD has become an important topic now, as i see it influencing research into ALL traumas. This is very specific. That much I can say from my research and experience.*


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2012)

And thanks Kate for putting it in a short and sweet manner.

I know I carry on, but I like to share EVIDENCE of where I got my opinion.


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## rightwrong99 (Apr 17, 2011)

violetgirl said:


> Says who?
> 
> We are only beginning to understand how trauma effects people. Which book or system are you goin by? The psychiatric system is full of crap, as far as I'm concerned. It's obsessed with putting things in the right groups, not about helping people.
> 
> ...


Violetgirl you are brilliant. Love this post.

Dreamer - I wish you could look at things differently, but I understand that after decades of the same problems you want an answer that finally makes sense to you and explains what you're feeling - and believing that its a perceptual distortion unrelated to PTSD or trauma or disorganized attachment is a good way of doing that.

What Violetgirl says... that all of these "disorder" are maladaptive coping mechanism. Its so dead on. Unfortunately most people cannot see beyond the western models of diagnoses and models of mental illnesses.

As I've recovered, this so called "perceptual distortion" has fallen away - indeed a faulty coping mechanism keeping my brain and myself free fom any kind of overwhelming stimuli. DPDR is a type of coping mechanism. Some people get it. Some people don't. And for some people, it becomes chronic - a cycle that cannot be broken because their brain has taken over. Their ability to rationalize has gone out the window and their disconnection is no longer within their control. The same thing happens with PTSD and thats why it develops... chronic depression as well. Its a snowball effect and once the snowball is big enough ,it keeps rolling and there's little to none yo can do about it anymore.


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## rightwrong99 (Apr 17, 2011)

Dreamer* said:


> And thanks Kate for putting it in a short and sweet manner.
> 
> I know I carry on, but I like to share EVIDENCE of where I got my opinion.


I've been on this forum for a year and a half now and see you post the same things over and over, like a broken record. Not sure how else to put this without sounding offensive - I don't intend to do any harm.

But I'm just curious, and maybe you have the answer, maybe you don't - but why is it that you want to believe scientists and journal articles and your NAMI friends instead of the people who are and have already recovered? The people who are and have experienced first hand what it is to come out on the other side?

Just like with Kate, I know you guys have had these disorders for a long time, and if I had it for that long, I would also be extremely skeptical, distrusting, and generally disbelieving of cures and recovery because to believe otherwise would be having to face the harsh realization that I myself haven't been able to recover. Its like a loss of hope that translated into a complacency and acceptance that merely perpetuates the problem.

HOWEVER - I don't think there is anything you can do about it, honestly. Considering that the right brain, the logical, self soothing, self controlling part of the brain that has learn to selfregulate based on the needs of the child has not developed properly. In other words, if you have attachment issues, which is more than likely, you can't be rational, recognize yourself, or talk back to yourself. Without this ability, overcoming any mental disorder would be nearly impossible. Relating to other people would be impossible.
Its as if the medical journals, articles, and all that has become "your voice." Your protection. Your secure base. Your mother.
I have seen little to no posts on here that come from "you" - that talk about you.

Sandy - I ask you three questions 
1. Do you believe anymore that you can recover?
2. Do you believe that you can form a sense of self after decades of this loss of self?
3. And the most important question of all - do you want to? I mean, deep down, do you really want to?

There is no doubt that that change and recovery is HARD. Just like it is hard for a child to grow up, and to develop a sense of self. There are obstacles. Challenges. Heartbreaks. Confusion. Recovery will not be easy. And to leave behind years and decades of mental anguish is like parting with a good friend. You are used to it.

In my recovery I have experienced both great joy and great pain. To have suffered for so long and realizing that I don't have to suffer anymore is a hard thing to come to terms with. I am used to suffering. I am used to relying on others to "Help me." I became accustomed to the idea that recovery was indeed not possible, that I had to accept my condition, and that I would never lead a normal life. The hardest part of all has been forgiving those people who originally I thought were to blame for my illness - all those in my life that made me feel shame, guilt, etc.
My parents for not loving me enough. Which, at the end of the day, I realize is subjective. Everyone tries their hardest.

I would love to discuss this with you without alluding to medical and scientific journals, if possible, or if interested.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2012)

Huggy Bear



> Why don't you want to try it and what bad things have you heard about it?


I can't answer all of these questions, but for goodness sake! Why is it I get attacked for clarifying something. No clue. And after a night of vomiting from the flu. LOL. Don't feel like doing much else but sit and stare at the TV.

I now post infrequently as my "job" so to speak is advocacy. If you don't believe in my POV, fine.

Re: Naloxone/Naltrexone, as someone noted, if you search the board you will see many experiences described. Everyone here seems to respect the fact that Uni Girl has tried many, many medications trying to get better. I have contacted her and asked about her experience with it. She said it was horrible, though she tried to go on it and off of it numerous times.

*I'm too tired on that one to go forward on this save "never giving up" stated that s/he "has been reading up on this." Why not tell him/her to top reading and go out and live life.*


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2012)

> Sandy - I ask you three questions
> 1. Do you believe anymore that you can recover?
> 2. Do you believe that you can form a sense of self after decades of this loss of self?
> 3. And the most important question of all - do you want to? I mean, deep down, do you really want to?


Again attacked in a condescending, insulting manner.

1. Probably not, and I was told that when I was 15, and those who work with MY type of DPD, from when I was 4 or 5 that was not treated for so long my prognosis is poor. That doesn't mean that I haven't made every effort to get better. I have been in psychoanalysis, I have worked extremely hard to get better. Do you honestly think someone would toss away their life. I have a BA and an MA, I have worked in Hollywood in production on a TV show, at PBS. I have severe ANXIETY, as well as depression, as well as DPD, as well as having been treated like garbage by my mother who was a psychiatrist.

I want to help ALL people with mental illness. So you would say to someone w/schizophrenia, "Snap out of it?" "You obviously don't want to get better?" Why aren't you better already??????

2. I am not sure if I can get better, but I can keep trying. Why the Hell am I answering these insults.

And I don't "hang around here" calling people names and attacking them, I state facts. I probably come across differently on the internet. And I apologize if people think I'm rude. I'm not. I have many supportive friends, was here when the original DP Board was created and those early individuals did research themselves to HELP OTHER PEOPLE. Helped get Dr. Sierra's work to the attention of others. Also, in those days, knowledge meant something.

3. But I was never on the internet, had NO information about DPD until 1999 and I was born in 1958. The internet opened me up to many organizations that help the mentally ill. I have found purpose and meaning in my life by telling my story. What in God's name do you want from me?

There is a spectrum of severity of any illness. How dare you measure my strength. I could have killed myself years ago, and wanted to.

I can't respond to people who refuse to look at what knowledge exists.

And to whomever. "Naive" ..... I said the reason I was so impressed was MY RESIDENT, M.D. has taken extra time to research my illness. I was shocked when he mentioned Naloxone and RESEARCH THAT MAY VERY WELL CHANGE THE PLACE OF DPD IN THE ICD AND DSM. I also am involved in the DSM revision project offering comments. I have given that link as well many times.

I give up. I really do.
Listen to anyone else who sites a chart, medical research, etc. and they are wonderful. Let me cite something and I am a bitch, negative, whatever.

Fine. I really don't come here as often anymore and won't report back on new information. I'm sick of the ignorance here.

I praise everyone's courage. But each one of us is unique. This could be 100% neurologal but that is too simplistic though schizophrenia, bipolar for example have been PROVEN to be medical. READ A FREAKIN' BOOK.

To Hell with this.
I won't be attacked anymore.

I lived 42 YEARS not knowing what was wrong with me. Pushed on with my life. Got married. Am well educated beyond my MA. I help others. Excuse me for trying to help. I'm done with this place.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2012)

I lost part of that post dammit.

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=search&fromMainBar=1
Link to the search engine on the board.

Link to one of many posts by people who have experimented with this.
http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/30973-my-naltrexone-experience/page__p__251049__hl__naloxone__fromsearch__1#entry251049

You know, if I were cruel and got better, I wouldn't come back here. But I'm not. I would report my full experience. But NO, there are NO cures available for us right now, but that's true for Parkinson's, and I have cancer and there is no cure. I must live with it. Hope it doesn't recur. I am STILL HERE though I have been terrified and wanted to give up.
I know many who have lived as full a life as possible WiTH DP/DR .... that doesn't mean they are cured and I know them personally.

*AND WHERE IN THE WORLD DID I SAY THERE IS NO TRAUMA INVOLVED?????????? WE DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH NATURE/NURTURE IS INVOLVED
BUT AGAIN I MYSELF WAS ABUSED.
SO I GET MORE ABUSE HERE.*

How could I as a 4/5 year old be experiencing this, begging my mother for help for years, not knowing there were more than 3 people on Earth with this disorder.
And I get kicked in the ass for sharing my experience.

You are outright vicious.
I really want to say this and it isn't my style, but F YOU. I found other sufferers at age 42. I knew very little about DP before then, what was wrong with me.

The OP again posted a theory. Well why is he/she on the board posting? Doesn't want to get well?
OMG, I don't believe this. I am crying so hard right now, and you wouldn't give a crap.

Oh and excuse me, but since I take a medication for my cancer there are certain drugs I cannot try. BUT, I am currently in a study at U. of M. about accpressure. My F-in' mind is open. I would report back with that -- how it helps w/fatigue in breast cancer survivors, but WTH for?


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## violetgirl (Apr 11, 2011)

Wow, so many excellent points being made here. 
Let me just say even though I am recovered from the chronic DP i had since chilhdood, I am still recovering from the after effects of a traumatic upbringing. I have had such a disturbing but eye opening time, just looking at how the world justifies and hides abuse.

*Dreamer*- Your posts make me angry, and your viewpoint on psychiatry does, because you are supporting a system, as far as I'm concerned that hides and treats trauma and emotional disorders as mental illness, which is then medicated and creates a lot of money. I know why you are like this, I know your background with your psychiatrist mother, and there is obviously some attachment to this sytem. But this system is keeping you in this state! I can't even begin to imagine the trauma you've had, especially from a mother who was a psychiatrist, and add this to the OCD and the Depersonalised state, I can understand why you cling to this. But other people want to get out of this condition, and the system you support is holding them back! Posting all these studies, and unfortunately people will read them and assume because it comes from a doctor it is legit. NewYork is right, nothing you post comes from 'you'. There is no emotion behind it, just medical jargon. This is not an attack, but it's something I've noticed as well.

*Huggy Bear*- I also had DP for 20 years, but am recovered. I can tell you I went to hell and back to find a way out, and the psychiatric system was useless. I have found Mindfulness, DBT and Trauma Releasing Exercises really helpful. I also did a lot of reading on how trauma effects children, attachment disorders. I love your point about the Catholic church. Read up on Alice Miller, she has written many books on acceptable forms of child abuse, it's just mindblowing! The psychiatric system enables child abuse, because it medicalises trauma disorders and makes the patient feel ashamed of their feelings. It's disgusting. I have so much anger and loathing of the MH system, because I was let down so many times and just labeled with 'depression' and had anti-depressants thrown at me. Which made me feel that my emotions were somehow wrong and sick. I was never ever asked how things were at home, despite displaying pretty obvious trauma reactions (self-harm, anger, suicide attempts).

*NewYork- *Keep up with this attitude. I hope you post more about this 'neurofeedback' you talked about in another post. We are only beginning to understand how trauma affects children. Many don't learn to self-soothe, or to regulate their emotions etc. Recovery takes time, but you will learn so much along the way. I had to really 'think outside the box' and challenge everything I knew about families, society, humanity. It was crazy!


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2012)

Now that I feel less hurt and attacked, I need to say to various people here.

1. I am currently in DBT. I have a Clinical Social Worker with whom I talk, work on projects, journal with, etc. I see my psychiatrist (a resident at the University) for meds reviews. I must see him every 6 months or I cannot get my meds. I practice Yoga, my own form of meditation, etc.

2. Violetgirl, to attack me when you know I was abused is cruel. I have difficulties with feeling unloved. As far as I'm concerned I had no parents.

3. You have no idea what I went through as an only child, feeling lonely for years. And both of my parents were much older than I. My father has been gone almost 21 years. My mother has been gone almost 12 years. I don't miss them. They did NOT love me. I have no extended family to speak of.

4. My mother was trained in *psychoanalysis.* Don't make assumptions. She would attack me left and right using Freud, then saying I was "a bag of genetic garbage." She hated everyone, not just me.

Being traumatized as noted affects us all. But to varying degrees.
My only point was that PTSD, is a different illness from DPD. I have DPD. I actually mentioned my severe reaction to your comments and others here to my therapist ... I want to be liked. She said, the two, PTSD and DPD, are not the same -- she has patients with DID, PTSD, chronic DPD, and anxiety disorders of various sorts. She has been a therapist working with individuals who have been traumatized ... oh about 25 years.

5. Also, I have some borderline traits which benefit from DBT which is actually based on Buddhism. I know, and my therapist said, "Why is it so important what this woman or others on this board think of you?" And I said, I want to be loved. But the love I want is from my mother. She has to remind me of that. That scar is permanent. I was feeling suicidal over this. And that is a very extreme reaction. I don't blame you. It is my nature, my upbringing, my hopelessness. But why would you treat me this way?

If this place is toxic to me, it is not perpetuating my DP, it is perpetuating my inability to control my emotions when I am hurt. It is a DBT challenge for me not to be hurt by anyone -- to not allow you to hurt me -- to say, "OK, disagree with me" and move on. Mindfulness. Controlling emotions/extremes. I know of mood regulation in DBT.

No one should make assumptions about anyone else here.

And the cruelest thing to say is that someone isn't trying to get better. Step in anyone else's shoes, and walk a mile. You might have a different perspective.

Really too bad when so many others here are looking for help, and get ripped into. Why? Are we not entitled to approach our illness in different ways? Steve Jobs chose to use alternative medicine for his pancreatic cancer against the wishes of his family. He got worse. Conventional treatments then didn't work, alternatives in his case didn't work and the cancer spread. He may not have died. *But that was his choice.* He was always that way -- read his recent biography. I don't judge him for something I wouldn't choose to do.

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Ah, and was it Huggy Bear? If I have issues with my MOTHER, she could have been a plumber and I still would have issues with her. Her views on humanity, her patients, psychiatry were all so crazy I didn't believe much of what she had to say. I have learned from others with mental illnesses.


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## forestx5 (Aug 29, 2008)

I'll just express a few facts and my opinion, (without differentiating one from the other.) I think DP is more frequently a symptom than a distinct disorder. PTSD is more the disorder.
A physical trauma that results in a TBI might plausibly cause both PTSD and DP. For my money, the mirror test would differentiate DP from PTSD. If you can't pass the mirror test, then your temporal lobe is not in resonance. You have symptoms of DP. I don't think failing the mirror test is an indication of uncomplicated PTSD.


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## flat (Jun 18, 2006)

Mirror test???


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## violetgirl (Apr 11, 2011)

Dreamer* said:


> 2. Violetgirl, to attack me when you know I was abused is cruel. I have difficulties with feeling unloved. As far as I'm concerned I had no parents.
> 
> Being traumatized as noted affects us all. But to varying degrees.
> My only point was that PTSD, is a different illness from DPD. I have DPD. I actually mentioned my severe reaction to your comments and others here to my therapist ... I want to be liked. She said, the two, PTSD and DPD, are not the same -- she has patients with DID, PTSD, chronic DPD, and anxiety disorders of various sorts. She has been a therapist working with individuals who have been traumatized ... oh about 25 years.


Don't twist my words. We have ALL been abused on here, one way or another. We ALL have difficulties with feeling unloved.

I have a right to challenge the things you say on here. I know very well how much DP is linked to abuse, but I am not going to stand back and watch study after study being bought out, and many of us don't agree with your viewpoint.

We ALL want to be liked, Dreamer. But that doesnt mean we can't criticise the things you say on here. I know it hurts, but that's life.

PTSD as far as i'm concerned is a redundant term. Most maladaptive coping mechanisms- self harm, drinking, DP, DID, BPD, NPD, ASPD are PTSD.

They are all ways of not feeling the original trauma. BPD has flashbacks, so does DID.


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## Fluke93 (Nov 2, 2010)

I love your copy and paste work Dreamer. Aboslutely brilliant work. I read through it all and it is all very interesting. Keep it up.


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## Fluke93 (Nov 2, 2010)

Listen right heres my opinion right sorry if its not intellectual enough for you. People with mental illnesses will feel ashamed of themselves a lot of the time. Whys this? Because its 2012. And there is a massive stigma linked with mental illnesses. We're in the dark ages right now, otherwise none of us would be here now. Because even if we had DP there would probably be things to make you better or at least reduce symptoms of it. When DP first hit for me, it felt like i was being RAPED mentally. And when i stumbled out of the hospital ward i went to out of fear, this was an ordinary A&E I felt like a fucking victim of physical rape. It would not have surprised me if they was all laughing at me in the staff room. I'm telling you now the state i was in was not fucking funny.

I have not read all the posts on here but judging from the posts ive briefly read through the above ones and i think a lot of the time there should not even be a category, maybe disorders don't even exist (mental ones). Maybe we're just plainly fucked up. You look at someone with a real mental disease that have symptoms that give the victims symptoms the name schizophrenia, or pychosis. How many of them symptoms mimic anxiety? Bad example maybe. But something thats struck me lately is depression mimics a lot of symptoms of derealization and depersonalization. A lot of people with depression feel cut off from the world, a lot of them say that they don't recognise themselves in the mirror. Some of them have no energy, some of them feel numb, and some of them say or have said that the world just LOOKS and FEELS different.

For instance watch these videos





 (try and find and watch part 1 and watch it all the way through as its really good)






If you watch both of these you'll find that more than a few times things that mimic or strike some sort of chord with DP/DR.

From personal experience I am apalled and i am angry and i will always be angry at the NHS, at the mental health system and as far as i can see in a lot of other countries it is even WORSE. Not saying some have not had good expeirences, but i can see a lot who have just been let down. You know what really hurts? The face that i didnt even expect them to make me better, just wanted some support. I've had enough of this bollocks. I was actually crying my eyes out once asking to see a doctor and told her panic attacks is my issue. She missed heard me and said "Anal sex?". HAHAHA WTF ARE YOU SERIOUS. See i was in pain, I was a 17 year old kid who looked about 14-15 and thought i was cool, been reduced to this. SOME FUCKING FEMALE THINKING I WAS GAY.

What you lot dont understand is its hard for men. We gotta be tough, but when mental illness strikes its hard to be isn't it? When you feel like shit daily. But guess what when i reached out I was mocked. This is why Dreamer a lot of people are getting angry, me in particular with all this research that never gets anywhere. It hasn't got you anywhere in the what 4 decades you've had it? Have you improved one bit? All a mental disorder is is a name with a list of symptoms which link most to that name. If i went to the doctors tomorrow and said "I have no energy, i cant eat much, i feel like crying all day" all they will do is say instantly you're depressed without even going into it with detail. Putting names on things they have no idea about is ridiculous.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2012)

*Mental Illnesses exist. Stigma will be destroyed when these illnesses move into the neurological realm. Here is the letter of a study coming out of the IoP in London, not funded by Big Pharma but by research grants. We label all illnesses, that is how they can be properly treated. If you don't believe in Science, there is nothing I can do to convince you.*

*Biological Psychiatry*
Article in Press
_*Multiple Clinical Traits Predict Clinical Diagnosis of Depersonalization Disorder: Implications for DSM-V
*_
Erwin Lemcheemail address
Simon A. Surguladze
Michael J. Brammer
Mary L. Phillips
Mauricio Sierra
Anthony S. David
Steven C.R. Williams
Vincent P. Giampietro

_*published online 30 December 2011.
Corrected Proof*_

Full Text
PDF
References

Article Outline

Acknowledgment
References
Copyright

This letter to the editor, indicating a full study coming out, indicates that DPD may be REMOVED FROM THE CATEGORY OF DISSOCIATIVE DISORDERS and can be associated more closely with depression and somatic disorders. The IoP was given a grant for this research in England, at Kings College. Big Pharma, etc. had nothing to do with Dr. Sierra's research.

*To the Editor:* [of Biological Psychiatry]

_*"There is currently no final conclusion to which nosological group depersonalization disorder (DPD) can be assigned.*_ DPD is characterized by three features-namely, a distorted body image, estrangement from reality in the absence of any psychotic perceptual interference, and estrangement from emotional and bodily feelings (1). In the ICD-10, DPD constitutes a separate nosological category, whereas in the DSM-IV, it is subsumed under dissociative disorders. Some clinical experts claim that DPD rather shares features with either anxiety disorders or with depression (2). To elucidate this problem further, we investigated cerebral emotion processing in DPD patients sampled nationwide across England, where we correlated relevant personality traits with brain response to happy and sad facial stimuli. Differential regression analyses were computed in which the regions discriminating DPD and normal control subjects (NC) groups were indicated by significant differences in regression slopes for these two groups.

The study was conducted in compliance with the Helsinki Declaration (3). All subjects gave written informed consent to the scientific use of their data and were reimbursed for their participation. All experimental procedures were endorsed by the Bethlem Royal and Maudsley Ethics Committee (Research), London, United Kingdom. The study included a sample of nine individuals, five men and four women, with a primary diagnosis of DPD. The clinical cutoff level of >70 on the Cambridge Depersonalization Scale (CDS) item version total scale discriminative for DPD (4) was exceeded for all patients (175.77 ± 12.31). Twelve NC subjects, 7 men and 5 women, were also included. NC subjects were chosen to match sample characteristics of DPD patients. Two expert psychiatrists had independently confirmed the DPD diagnosis according to DSM-IV criteria.

All subjects completed self-report forms before being introduced to the experimental protocol inside the scanner. Further to the CDS clinical cutoff measure for DPD (4), clinical symptoms potentially relevant for DPD were assessed using the Dissociative Experience Scale (DES) (5), the Screening for Somatoform Disorders (SOMS-2) (6), the Beck Depression Inventory (BDI) (7), and the State-Trait Anxiety Inventory (STAI-Y1 and Y2, respectively) (







. These self-report instruments were used to estimate their unique variance contributions and respective classification specificities for clinical DPD diagnoses in logistic regression and receiver-operating characteristics models reporting areas under the curve (AUC).

Each of these clinical trait taxons significantly predicted the clinical DPD diagnosis, and also demonstrated sufficient classification specificity for the clinical diagnosis. For the SOMS-2, Nagelkerke R2 = .51, Wald = 4.24, p < .001, AUC = .801, p < .021 (95% confidence interval [CIs] .577-1.025); for the BDI, Nagelkerke R2 = .62, Wald = 4.26, p < .001, AUC = .894, p < .003 (95% CIs .723-1.064); for the DES, the Nagelkerke R2 = .39, Wald = 4.19, p < .007, AUC = .764, p < .043 (95% CIs .515-1.013); for the STAI-Y1, Nagelkerke R2 = .24, Wald = 3.03, p < .039, AUC = .713, p < .049 (95% CIs .475-.951); and for the STAI-Y2, Nagelkerke R2 = .31, Wald = 3.23, p < .019, AUC = .782, p < .030 (95% CIs .573-.991). In summary, it can be stated that BDI and SOMS-2 have unique variance proportions greater than 50% for clinical diagnoses and have AUCs greater than 80%. The DES, STAI-Y1, and STAI-Y2 are weaker predictors in comparison, but still yield significant regression models and are also valid classifiers for the clinical DPD diagnosis.

Under stimulation with happy facial expression, regions significantly discriminating the DPD and NC groups were, for somatization severity, the right temporal operculum; for dissociative experience, the right supramarginal gyrus (Brodmann's area [BA] 40); for depression load, left pulvinar nucleus of the thalamus; for state anxiety level, the left inferior frontal gyrus (BA 45); and for trait anxiety level, the right caput of the caudate nucleus. During sad-face processing, DPD and NC groups differed significantly in the following regions: for somatization, bilateral ventral striatum adjacent to the subgenual cortices (BA 25); for dissociation, the left inferior temporal gyrus (BA 36); for depression, left amygdala; for state anxiety, left parahippocampal gyrus (BA 28); and for trait anxiety level, right superior temporal gyrus (BA 22).

Among the main findings of the current study is the result that the regions significantly discriminating between the two experimental groups with regard to somatization are in the bilateral ventral striatum in the sad condition and the temporal operculum in the happy condition. These findings are consistent with the notion that somatization is dependent of the serotonin system and that somatization sensations could follow neural representations of interoception. The second main finding is the differential association clusters of dissociation in supramarginal and inferior temporal cortices, respectively. The finding that amygdalar engagement and thalamic activation are discriminative for depressiveness is well in line with previous finding implicating these limbic regions in depression. The association of state anxiety with the neural response in the inferior frontal gyrus to happy faces, and parahippocampal gyrus to sad emotion, is also consistent with published literature for anxiety in affective disorders (9). The discriminative regions for trait anxiety are the caudate head and the superior temporal gyrus. This finding also replicates previous findings observed for state anxiety (10).

*In summary, this study has presented evidence that DPD patients show a number of clinical traits that predict the clinical diagnosis to varying degrees. Therefore, our results do not give rise for the assignment of DPD to any specific nosological group. Instead, this sample indicates a rather multidimensional picture of DPD. Using a whole-brain differential regression neuroimaging approach, we ascertained the cerebral correlates of these traits, as elicited by tasks of facial emotion processing. The neuroimaging results also reveal that the clinical traits tested have separate cerebral bases, implicating that independent cerebral mechanisms subserve the individual traits tested for. The main findings in the behavioral domain were the following: the strongest predictors for DPD diagnosis were depression severity, then somatization severity. Although trait dissociation is also a significant predictor of DPD, its classification specificity is considerably lower than depression and somatization. Therefore, the fact that dissociation and anxiety were found to be only weaker predictors of clinical DPD diagnosis, whereas depression and somatization were the strongest predictors, contradicts or at least relativizes the current status of DPD in the DSM-IV. Our results suggest that the impending revisions of classifications in DSM-V or ICD-11 should take into account the demonstrated multitrait association of DPD."*

*Take it or leave it.
If you don't have a proper diagnosis, you can't be treated properly, and that includes both THERAPY and other medical or holistic interventions.*


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2012)

,,,


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2012)

,,,


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2012)

violetgirl said:


> Don't twist my words. We have ALL been abused on here, one way or another. We ALL have difficulties with feeling unloved.
> 
> I have a right to challenge the things you say on here. I know very well how much DP is linked to abuse, but I am not going to stand back and watch study after study being bought out, and many of us don't agree with your viewpoint.
> 
> ...


No Violetgirl we have not all been abused. There are many with DP/DR who have NOT. I don't attack you. As I said, don't read my posts if they bother you so much. Put me on "Ignore" I have put you on "Ignore" -- fair? Simple. I know many here w/DP/DR who came from loving supporting families. Why doesn't the entire world have DP/DR?

I'm sorry for the abuse in your life -- it shouldn't have happened. I don't expect you to have any compassion for mine. That's fine.


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## Fluke93 (Nov 2, 2010)

Dreamer* said:


> Thank you very much. Do you read these articles? Even the difficult ones. No. I really don't care. These articles are for those other people on the board who may find them interesting. There IS extensive research into DP/DR.
> 
> Your internet evidence is a tad weak compared to neuroscientific/psychiatric/neurological research. But I listen to it too.
> Put me on ignore Fluke.
> ...


Didn't claim I had any evidence !!


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2012)

,,,


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## Fluke93 (Nov 2, 2010)

Dreamer* said:


> So why is mine so threatening to you? Not that it matters. Bye.
> You posted videos.


If you actually read what i fucking said you silly little madam instead of pasting bollocks from wikipedia and other sites to try and make yourself look intelligent then you might get why i posted what i posted. It was an opinion not evidence. It was just a question. A question to the rest of the site.


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## violetgirl (Apr 11, 2011)

Dreamer* said:


> No Violetgirl we have not all been abused. There are many with DP/DR who have NOT. I don't attack you. As I said, don't read my posts if they bother you so much. Put me on "Ignore" I have put you on "Ignore" -- fair? Simple. I know many here w/DP/DR who came from loving supporting families. Why doesn't the entire world have DP/DR?
> 
> I'm sorry for the abuse in your life -- it shouldn't have happened. I don't expect you to have any compassion for mine. That's fine.


How dare you! I have compassion for everyone who has been abused, including you. Just because I don't agree with you.

Your logic is ridiculous.

They may THINK they come from a loving, supportive home, but chances are if they have a dissociative disorder, they didn't. Emotional abuse is hard to spot. Denial. Blocking things out. We don't yet know the extent of how trauma effects people. Do you know their background?

Why doesn't the entire world have self-harm, alcoholism, ASPD, anorexia, bulima? Simply because we have different brain makeup, and we react to trauma differently.

And I haven't attacked you! I just don't agree with what you've said.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2012)

Fluke said:


> If you actually read what i fucking said you silly little madam instead of pasting bollocks from wikipedia and other sites to try and make yourself look intelligent then you might get why i posted what i posted. It was an opinion not evidence. It was just a question. A question to the rest of the site.


Fluke, I'm sorry. I'm so overly sensitive in this thread. I thought you were being sarcastic and I lashed back. Please accept my apologies. I'm a mess. I don't wish to argue, just post info.

Very sorry.
D


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## rightwrong99 (Apr 17, 2011)

So much has been said at this point, I'm not sure what to quote or multi-quote - or whatever.

But basically - Sandy - I truly apologize that what I said made you feel attacked and abused - that wasn't my intention. The questions I asked were out of pure curiosity. The observations I made were merely that - observations. I struggled for a few days after you posted your response to figure out what happened and how to respond - essentially, the cruelty you perceived that I've inflicted on you is the exact cruelty I feel like I've experienced my whole life. I think there's something to be said about someone's intention and our perception. It is incredibly hard on a forum for the mentally ill to argue and make certain points and observations without people feeling slighted and retraumatized. We are, after all, a sensitive bunch, with incredibly fragile and underdeveloped egos. This makes therapy EXTREMELY difficult and sometimes nearly impossible for us bunch. I saw a quote today that I loved:
"The truth will set you free - but first it will piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

At the end of the day - I get a bit angry because I wish I could help you since I've now been helped and found a way to fresh air. I never implied that you have not tried to get better, and tried HARD. What I was trying to imply is that at the core of your DPDR may be an attachment disorder that was never addressed in therapy - especially psychoanalysis - which generally furthers objectifies the patient and leaves them feeling alone. But I'm generalizing - I don't know the nature of your psychoanalysis. If all of your attempts to recover have not been met with success - I feel terrible, because I can only imagine that it caused you to feel even more helpless and shamed. I imagine that the resistance you meet with on here that is perceived as attacks and abuse are people who feel threatened by the fact that you have not recovered in all these years. Defending yourself then becomes a cycle that makes you feel minimized and enhances your pain. Maybe akin to an abusive relationship that you certainly do not need. I'm glad that DBT ad CBT are helping you cope!

Somewhere along the line I believe you said that we should read the information thats out there, like you have, and to stop being ignorant.
I should mention here that I have read dozens and dozens of medical journals, books, and contacted dozens of doctors that "specialize" in dissociative disorders, DPDR, and PTSD. I consider my level of knowledge on mental health, and specifically trauma to be pretty extensive.
I've recently been in on going communication with Dr. Alan Schore (the nation, if not the world's, foremost researcher on attachment disorders) - and he agrees that disorganized attachment underlies depersonalization. Everyone here should read *"Affect Regulation and the Repair of the Self" * - he talks about depersonalization.
I've seen and been in contact with Daphne Simeon and did her little Hunter College study, had months and months of therapy and psychoanalysis with Orna Guralnik, and have been in communication with Dr. Mauricio Sierra and Evan Torch. I have read every book that exists on DPDR and ever medical journal that has been published (though you can find 99% of it in Mauricio Sierra's book.) In his book, btw, I find it extremely interesting that he mentions that there are psychologists who theorize that DPDR is _INDEED_ just a manifestation of PTSD and/or an anxiety disorder!! He doesn't go into detail though which is strange and wildly unfortunate. I also find it interesting that Daphne and Orna's studies have concluded that drug induced and trauma induced DPDR do not differ. 
There's one thing that therapy cannot address for DPDR symptoms that I have found a CURE for through neurofeedback, and that is *sensory integration.* My affect regulation is also nearly cured. Now that these two issues are no longer an issue, therapy for me is proceeding at lightning speed. I always thought recovering meant falling back into your "self." Like a switch flipping. Wow was I wrong! Its a process of rebuilding.

But anyway, as far as terminology and the DSM goes - terminology is just that - terminology. It seeks to define what is ultimately undefinable - human life. Energy. Existence. Trying to fit things into boxes is relatively helpful, but I personally believe that it minimizes and distorts the "professionals" ability to see the big picture. As they try to get more detailed, they lose sight of what's really important. Developing language so that we can communicate to each other has been profoundly helpful - but developing language for labeling the experiences of the "mentally ill" has its caveats.

"CURE" is a tough word to use. What does it mean? That if you take a pill and it doesn't go away in a week that there's no cure? Who set the time frame for what a "cure" is? Saying that there is no cure of DPDR (if we're going to use terms for a moment) - is quite honestly a travesty. Hearing this information when I started experiencing these symptoms traumatized me more and threw me further into the depths of the experience. Tell someone who has an attachment issue that there is no way out and what can they do? More anxiety. More depression. More confusion. More abandonment. More shame. More dissociating and depersonalizing.

I believe that recovery is not a process of uncovering what's causing you to dissociate - though that knowledge is extremely useful. Recovery is about rebuilding the self, from the bottom up. Here are MANY issues to be remedied - sensory integration issues being a big one. Affect regulation therapy seeks to do just this. 
None of this can be done without remedying the underlying issue which is disorganized attachment and affect dysregulation (whether you want to call this PTSD or not is your choice.) 
Without this, the person will never form a self and always live "in between the spaces of interpellation and recognition (DPDR") - if you haven't read Orna Guralnik and Daphne Simeon's long essay published on their work with DPDR - I suggest you do. I posted it a few months ago. And by the way, both of these doctors have "CURED" DPDR.

The experience of DPDR is certainly unique - but at the end of the day - what underlies the experience is common to a majority of other "mental illnesses."

Disclaimer: Why believe me? But really, why believe anyone? Or better yet, why _not_ believe *everyone?* Ah, the paradox of debate.


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## rightwrong99 (Apr 17, 2011)

As far as affect regulation goes - look at Dr. Schore's book. Here's a review of the book that does a good job at giving you a hint of what you'll find when you read it. Fascinating stuff that makes so much sense and actually comes up with answers and solutions as opposed to all this other research that leads absolutely nowhere except medicating people further into oblivion.

http://xnet.kp.org/permanentejournal/spring05/affect.html

Affect Regulation and The Repair of the Self 
By Allan N Schore
Review by Milton Richlin, PhD

In this most recent volume in his series, Allan Schore of the University of California at Los Angeles describes an extensive body of research and clinical observations supporting the idea that early development of the brain's right hemisphere plays a critical role in an infant's attachment to its primary caregiver. During the first three years of life, the centers in the prefrontal cortex of the infant's right hemisphere respond to the interaction with the mother's emotions in guiding the infant's own emotional development.

In the preface, Schore explains the purpose and plan of the current book in the context of earlier volumes1,2 in the series:

In this book ... I offer further exposition in the fields of developmentally-oriented psychotherapy and developmental neuropsychoanalysis .... The rich body of data that emerged from basic brain research, as well as from psychobiology and psychophysiology was now, perhaps more so than any time before, relevant to clinicians.3xiii

An important theme of the book is that many aspects of Freud's original theoretical and clinical models have been substantially updated and, in some cases, even radically altered. Schore places great emphasis on Attachment Theory (as set forth and developed by Bowlby) and its use of the concept of nonconscious internal working models. Schore seems to believe that any biases held by his readers must be measured against the ever-growing neurobiological evidence that Freudian theory and our understanding of brain function are no longer incompatible. As a nonpsychoanalytic psychotherapist, I appreciated learning of the great efforts being made to scrutinize and revise psychoanalysis in neuroscientific terms--an effort that supplements the experimental approach within psychoanalysis itself.5,6 Also interesting is the fact that a new journal, Neuro-Psychoanalysis (which began publication in 1999) lists an impressive editorial board, including psychoanalysts Schore, Otto Kernberg, and Arnold Modell as well as neuroscientists Antonio Damasio, Joseph LeDoux, Eric Kandel, Karl Pribram, and Oliver Sachs.

Another important theme is the neurobiological development of the self. On this topic, Schore presents a nearly overwhelming volume of research findings. From these findings, two particularly important subthemes emerged. The first is the greater role of the right prefrontal cortex as compared with the left during the first three years of life--with regard to influencing development of a sound emotional base:

This prefrontal region comes to act in the capacity of an executive control function for the entire right cortex, the hemisphere that modulates affect, nonverbal communication and unconscious processes ... . In this manner, the child's first relationship, the one with the mother, acts as a template for the imprinting of circuits in the child's emotion-processing right brain, thereby permanently shaping the individual's adaptive or maladaptive capacities to enter into all later emotional relationships .... Indeed, the right brain is thought to contain the essential elements of the self system (Mesulam and Geschwind, 1978; Schore, 1994).3p18-19

A second major subtheme is the key role of the mother's face and emotional expressions in determining the emotional development of the infant. The mother's face--particularly her eyes--is the most potent stimulus in the infant's environment. Schore quotes studies by Hoffman (1987) and Panksepp, et al (1985), which show that interactive mutual gazes between the mother and her infant trigger high levels of endogenous opiates in the child's growing brain. These findings are related to Schore's Regulation Theory, which emphasizes that attachment is essentially the right brain regulation of biological synchronicity between organisms.

Another theme discussed in the book addresses the relation between the right hemisphere and the lower brain centers, particularly the autonomic nervous system (ANS). Physicians whose patients have an illness with a strong psychosomatic component will be especially interested. The following quotation is representative of Shore's presentation:

... the infant's psychobiological response to trauma is comprised of two separate response patterns, hyperarousal and dissociation ... In the initial stage of threat an alarm reaction is initiated, in which the sympathetic component of the ANS is suddenly and significantly activated, resulting in increased heart rate, blood pressure, and respiration. Distress is expressed in crying and then screaming ... This state of fear-terror is mediated by sympathetic hyperarousal, and it reflects increased levels of the major stress hormone corticotrophin releasing factor, which in turn regulates noradrenaline and adrenaline activity ....

But a second, later-forming, longer-lasting traumatic reaction is seen in dissociation, in which the child disengages from stimuli in the external world and attends to an "internal" world .... Traumatized infants are observed to be staring off into space with a glazed look. This parasympathetic dominant state of conservation-withdrawal occurs in helpless and hopeless stressful situations in which the individual becomes inhibited and strives to avoid attention in order to become "unseen." ...

This primary regulatory process for maintaining organismic homeostasis ... is characterized by a metabolic shutdown ... and low levels of activity .... It is used throughout the lifespan when the stressed individual disengages in order "to conserve energies ... to foster survival by the risky posture of feigning death, to allow healing of wounds and restitution of depleted resources by immobility" (Powles, 1992, p 213).3p124


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2012)

Dear NewYork,

I really appreciate the apology. I don't have time to read all you've written right now, but will get back to it.

The internet is a terrible place for MOST conversation, but yes on a forum like this, their are wounds and struggles. My entire life I have been seeking the love of my parents who just weren't there for me. My father left when I was very young, not much in my life, and my mother mainly screamed at me for one reason or another my entire life. But she did that to everyone. I have a deep desire for her love obviously, for real parents, and so I have this, I want EVERYONE to like me/love me, and I know that isn't possible.

It is one thing to understand that intellectually and another emotionally. There are scars that simply don't heal.

On the board here, sometimes I feel hatred when I shouldn't. Sometimes I get enraged that I am misunderstood. As noted I'm working on that in DBT therapy. But no, it isn't easy. And I will say, my work with a psychoanalyst in the 1980s was MORE destructive than helpful. He really made me worse. But I have now found a wonderful thearpist ... one left, then the other is great too. Both women ... I wish I had, had their help 45 years ago. LITERALLY.

More later,
Thank you.
Sandy
Now see, this is ho I am. Your kindness makes me cry. OMG I'm a mess.


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## Fluke93 (Nov 2, 2010)

I also apoligise. I probably didn't explain myself very well and didn't have a very good point come to think of it. I think we were both in the wrong. I must confess looking back at what I'd posted I am slightly embarrassed as it was basically a topic for another thread and not this one. I basically got carried away and hijacked the thread like a madman haha







.And I agree with you it is a terrible place to discuss come to think of it. You can never tell what someones intent is in typing. I think its important as a forum we all get along and we all have different ways to get our points accross. I think you're very intelligent reading through your posts earlier and being a long timer have more knowledge than others. Seriously i hate apoligising but what the heck this is the internet and i just want to get better no room for childish argueing. I think it is interesting reading others opinions though, because if we had no opinions as individuals we would get no where not only in life but with DP.


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## rightwrong99 (Apr 17, 2011)

Dreamer* said:


> It is one thing to understand that intellectually and another emotionally. There are scars that simply don't heal.
> 
> And I will say, my work with a psychoanalyst in the 1980s was MORE destructive than helpful. He really made me worse. But I have now found a wonderful thearpist ... one left, then the other is great too. Both women ... I wish I had, had their help 45 years ago. LITERALLY.
> 
> Now see, this is ho I am. Your kindness makes me cry. OMG I'm a mess.


This is _*proof*_ that you can heal - and really was why I was challenging you to begin with.

Im assuming you hadn't gotten to the part in my last post yet about how psychoanalysis makes people who have attachment disorders WORSE! happy coincidence








My psychoanalysis provided me with LOTS of information - but information is not what we need. It made me feel worse too. 
What we need is love. We need the be held and loved like we never were by our mothers.

Dr. Schore's work proves that it is _never_ too late to learn to self regulate, heal the right brain, and form a self. It takes work and the right combination of therapies, but it is certainly possible - at any age.

You're not a mess. You've just been hurting for far too long.


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## violetgirl (Apr 11, 2011)

Dreamer,

I really wasn't attacking you, and I do take offense to you implying that I don't have compassion for your abuse. That's an awful thing to accuse someone of.
If I didn't care about people with DP, I wouldn't be trying to find answers and challenging the way psychiatry treats trauma.

I have had a horrendous time within the psychiatric system. It's a cold, clinical, uncaring, invalidating system. It doesn't look at us as people, as humans with stories. Just as chemicals and biology.

I had an awful incident yesterday with the psychiatrist in my therapy group, she is treating women with severe trauma/ BPD/ DID/ DP etc. I won't go into details, but she triggered me immensly, and I was a mess afterwards. There are women in the group who have suffered severe sexual trauma during childhood, yet she prescribes them countless psych medication for a 'mood disorder'. There is no compassion, it's a brutal way to treat people who are suffering emotionally. Every week I challenge the way she treats us. She has a degree in drug dealing, but no understanding of human emotion. And what's scary is how much power she has.

Just think of it this way, people didn't believe the Catholic Church could have committed such atrocities against children. Even when it was exposed, people couldn't deal with it and the priests were not dealt with. And all those children never had justice. Just because it's a trusted institution, does not mean it's ethical or right. And I feel the same about psychiatry.

I can understand why you cling to the way you think about DP, I have a hell of a lot of control issues too. But I had to swallow my pride and ask for help and I had to face up to things about myself that I didn't really want to see. But the rewards were amazing. It's never too late to start looking at life differently.


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## opie37060 (Jan 9, 2010)

Hey guys, we all got different views on this but we should respect each other on this forum.


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## opie37060 (Jan 9, 2010)

Just keep doing what you are doing Dreamer and don't worry about what anyone else on here thinks of you. You seem ok in my book and you obiviously do alot of research to try and get better understanding of this disorder and to help yourself and others get out of it.


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## rightwrong99 (Apr 17, 2011)

opie37060 said:


> I came from a loving supportive family. Shown nothing but love and my parents still support me to this day. They don't understand what i'm going through but they try and help me out anyway they can. I also do believe alot of us on here are like that. Just because one person has trauma from childhood or whatever doesn't mean we all do. And keep doing what you are doing dreamer and don't worry about what anyone else on here thinks of you. You seem ok in my book and you obiviously do alot of research to try to get better understanding of this disorder and to help yourself and others get out of it.


If you have a problem with affect regulation - whether you came from what you now perceive as a loving and supportive family does not matter. Your family didn't have to be terrible for your right brain to be unstable and unsupportive and ineffective in controlling the left brain and allow for the prefrontal cortex to experience and process emotion. 
There are different levels of "trauma" and poor parenting. 
My family is also extremely supportive in my recovery and they pay for all of my treatment - but just because they're not horrible people doesn't mean that my mom wasn't able to be as attentive as she could have been when I was a baby and lacked the skills to be able to foster my emotional intelligence as I matured. There are many different factors - social, emotional, financial, cultural - that can lead a child vulnerable to depersonalizing.
Like violetgirl said previously - most people are likely unaware at the level of instability and "trauma" inflicted on them. Actually, it could only take for your mother to have ADD or ADHD or dissociative/attention problems of her own to leave you vulnerable. 
The fact of the matter is that you have this problem now, and whether u believe its trauma or not - can you fix it? And how do you do it?


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## opie37060 (Jan 9, 2010)

newyork said:


> If you have a problem with affect regulation - whether you came from what you now perceive as a loving and supportive family right now does not matter. Your family didn't have to be terrible for your right brain to be unstable and unsupportive and ineffective in controlling the left brain and allow for the prefrontal cortex to experience and process emotion.
> There are different levels of "trauma" and poor parenting.
> My family is also extremely supportive in my recovery and they pay for all of my treatment - but just because they're not horrible people doesn't mean that my mom wasn't able to be as attentive as she could have been when I was a baby and lacked the skills to be able to foster my emotional intelligence as I matured. There are many different factors - social, emotional, financial, cultural - that can lead a child vulnerable to depersonalizing.
> Like violetgirl said previously - most people are likely unaware at the level of instability and "trauma" inflicted on them. Actually, it could only take for your mother to have ADD or ADHD or dissociative/attention problems of her own to leave you vulnerable.
> The fact of the matter is that you have this problem now, and whether u believe its trauma or not - can you fix it? And how do you do it?


Interesting stuff. I like to read everyones views and beliefs concerning dp/dr. If you got any tips message me and tell me what works for you. I've tried everything I can think of to try and fix this. But i'm going to keep on trying and looking till i find something that helps.


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## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

I think its a type of PTSD. Most with DP say they have chronic anxiety I think I have it but on an unconscious level. I never feel anxiety I guess because I repress it and I think it manifests as muscle spasms I get here and there in different parts of my body.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

I think trauma and dp have the same root which is not being allowed or short circuiting your natural authentic emotional response to what happens to you in life. It usually isn't what happens to you in life which messes you up rather it is your reaction or being denied a reaction which causes long term problems.

But you don't necessarily have to have been traumatised to get dp because all sorts of things can invalidate your natural emotional reactions, for example "normal" belief systems like boys shouldn't cry and girls shouldn't get angry are depersonalising beliefs which short circuit you. A huge range of belief systems, patterns and issues in "normal" loving families and in society in general can be depersonalising.


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## violetgirl (Apr 11, 2011)

Huggy Bear said:


> Violetgirl,
> 
> I was thinking whether I should reply to your post, but, hey, why not. So, let me tell you a few things about the author (AM) you mentioned above...
> 
> ...


Omg, wow. Thanks for letting me know. I am really sorry if me mentioning it to you triggered you or upset you!

I only discovered her website the other day, and was really interested in what she had to say. I can still take her opinions and agree with them as they have really helped me, but her as a person sounds terrible. I don't think how she was as a person invalidates what she has written. Life is shades of grey, we just need to pick out the parts that help us. I mean, my psychiatrist does have good advice that has helped me, even if the rest of the time she is an insensetive, patronising drug pusher. It sounds like AM was split as a person, one part knowing how damaging it can be, yet doing the same to her child. Abuse is so complex that way. This is why I am terrified of having kids because I had an abusive upbringing, and don't have a good reference of parenting. I think many go on autopilot and repeat what their parents did to them. And many either haven't deal with their own abuse issues, and try to solve it through their kids. Or abuse issues surface when they have their own children, and then it's too late.

So sorry you had to go through all that! That sounds awful! Were you able to undo what he did? I think as well, you could apply the same logic of a parent/ child with psych/ client. They too have unmet needs and try to heal themelves through their work. Could you not sue for what happened?
I have avoided psychs like the plague since I was diagnosed with BPD 10 years ago, they have no real sympathy for trauma. I always question what they say. And after all they are human, and have been abused themselves, so may not always want to see the 'truth'. I have been medicated since the age of 14. I hold those doctors accountable for enabling the abuse because they made me feel like I was ill, and not suffering the effects of what was going on at home. Plus, the medication they put me on was very toxic and gave me psychotic episodes and personality changes and suicidal urges. They eventually banned it for under 18s. Our minds are still growing at this age, all I needed was someone to talk to or to ask me what was wrong.

My parents are always horrified by child abuse when it comes on the TV, yet they cannot realise how much they abused me and my sister. It's like there's a blind spot there. People project what they don't want to see in themselves.

You should try Mindfulness and TRE. But yeah, sometimes all it needs is for one person to listen. I was extremely lucky that I saw a psychologist who specialises in BPD and OCD, who treated me like a human being, a trauma victim. Not a manipulative crazy person, which is how the system views people with BPD. It just gave me a nudge in the right direction, and I started to get better from there.


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## violetgirl (Apr 11, 2011)

Pablo said:


> I think trauma and dp have the same root which is not being allowed or short circuiting your natural authentic emotional response to what happens to you in life. It usually isn't what happens to you in life which messes you up rather it is your reaction or being denied a reaction which causes long term problems.
> 
> But you don't necessarily have to have been traumatised to get dp because all sorts of things can invalidate your natural emotional reactions, for example "normal" belief systems like boys shouldn't cry and girls shouldn't get angry are depersonalising beliefs which short circuit you. A huge range of belief systems, patterns and issues in "normal" loving families and in society in general can be depersonalising.


I wish people would realise that trauma doesn't have to be something big. Having parents who are afraid of strong emotions is traumatising, because it makes you feel your feelings are wrong. So you surpress, and this leads to all kinds of issues. Feeling responsible for other people's emotions, not allowing yourself to feel, guilt, shame etc. All factors in getting DP.

Also, as you say Pablo, society invalidates feelings. It views anger as a dangerous emotion and judges it, instead of asking WHY a person is angry. Chronic anger is usualy rooted in a abuse. We need anger to survive, it's an important emotion that we need to acknowledge. And yes there is a sexist idea that men shouldn't express themselves emotionally, which may be part of the reason they have such a high suicide rate compared to women.

I had no idea I had been abused until a psychologist pointed out that my parents sounded narcissistic, and then all my behaviour fell into place. Everybody thinks their parents are normal, because we have nothing to compare it to. And if you have been abused and feeling a lot of guilt, you're not going to want to challenge what you know. There are many systems in place in your mind, the family and society to stop you from questioning abuse.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2012)

Feeling better tonight. Not so defensive. And I agree, we just need to share ideas, and attempt to get along. And I am working on my own issues, even on this board.

One thing about labels. Medicine defines ... maybe this is a better word ... groups of symptoms so they can be classified for research and treatment purposes. We define everything in life. Though psychiatry is dicey, it's come a long way.

The DSM and other classifications of illnesses -- ALL illnesses -- were originally for statistical purposes, and later for diagnostic purposes for insurance companies. No one person fits "perfectly" into any one diagnosis. But I could say, everyone on this board ... most ... are sharing a cluster of very similar symptoms. Those of DP/DR ... we are all talking about the same FEELING, SENSATION, EXPERIENCE of self, our surroundings, and we are not psychotic. Sadly a good number of people who have come and gone on this sight have been given the wrong diagnosis, which led them in the wrong direction re: treatment.

I have a friend of many years from this board, we get together all the time who was diagnosed with temporal lobe epilepsy. He doesn't have that, he has depression, anxiety and DP/DR. The DP/DR were successfully treated with Neurontin (which IS an anticonvulsant). He has no DP/DR. It's gone. But he never received an understanding of what he actually had. He heard about it later, online, in a group like this. In that circumstance it worked out, he doesn't suffer DP/DR ... but he does not have TLE. Never did. Others here have been diagnosed as "prodromal schizoprhenia." They have been given very inappropriate medications that have made them WORSE.

So, my two cents. If you go to a doctor for severe fatigue, the doctor has to figure out by elimination what you have and what you DON'T have so that the proper treatment is given. And neither psychiatry, neurology, or general medicine have all the answers to anything.

*If anyone wants to participate in the DSM-5 decision making process ... I have participated in two rounds, and there is a final round coming up this spring, see: http://www.dsm5.org/Pages/Default.aspx * Since I have commented on two issues, not just DP, I have been invited to partiicpate in the third round re: DP/DR.

DP/DR and it will now be called Depersonalization/Derealization as I understand it, as much of the time the two come together. It will also be noted as a separate disorder unto itself. Yes, it can be secondary to many things, but as Dr. Sierra and the research of many others (including neurologists), but in @2% of the population it remains chronic. This is what is understood now. Also, there has always been a debate about DP being in the dissociative disorders for one very specific reason ....

The other Dissociative Disorders (a category, that simply helps put similar disorders in the same place) all involve AMNESIA. Loss of time.

1. Dissociative Fugue (where someone can up and not recall how they got 24 miles from home, and "wake up" somewhere else)
2. Dissociative Amnesia (forgetting major details after a severe trauma)
3. DID (long periods of doing things and not recalling having done them, such as purchasing clothing, or meeting with someone, etc.)

DP/DR SPECIFICALLY have NO aspect of amnesia. This alone was an early debate re: pulling it from this category.

These more recent studies, notice a correlation more with depression and somatic disorders than with anxiety. I find that fascinating. This again could mean that the DP causes anxiety. We're always debating that here.

In the meantime, I do not see these things as "labeling" anyone, anymore than saying "You have diabetes" ... there will come a time I believe when psychiatric disorders will be recognized as legitimate medical conditions (REGARDLESS OF WHAT CAUSED THEM) and will be treated fairly in terms of insurance, prevention, treatment, etc. That is the theme of many advocacy groups I am a part of. And speaking openly about my illness helps others open up. We realize a lot of people have brain disorders -- successful people, and struggling individuals. From schizophrenia to mood disorders.

The reason I originally tried to again refocus the actual definition of PTSD is like ... again a personal example:

About a year ago I started having swelling in my right hand in the mornings. I was concerned as I thought it was lymphedema symptoms from my mastectory. I was running around to various doctors. It could have been lymphedema ... but that was ruled out. Then there was a thought that I had severe tendonitis. THAT was ruled out. I was sent to a rheumatologist .... I have arthritis, but I also had to rule out one of two types of arthritis ... I DON'T have rheumatoid arthritis (thank God), I have osteoarthritis. So, symptoms in common, but getting the FINAL CORRECT diagnosis means I don't have to take special medications, have certain pain control options, and have hand exercises. So, by exclusion I received the correct treatment.

The symptoms got whittled away ...
1. Lymphedema
2. Tendonitis
3. Rheumatoid Arthritis
4. Osteoarthritis

All four of these VERY different problems had similar symptoms. Knowing the correct diagnosis led to the proper treatment.

That's what these categories are for.
I'm not saying doctors get everything correct. I'm not saying researchers get everything correct. But by getting the best diagnosis, and certainly not the WRONG diagnosis, is ... well the best thing.

Though I hate "House, M.D." (House should have been fired 10 years ago) some of the medical mysteries on that show are a perfect example of this process, where a psychiatric symptoms might be the symptom of a metabolic disorder such as hypo or hyper thyroidism, etc.

My 2 cents is these are categories that can be used for bad or for good. But bottom line, all of us are seeking help for something. Something isn't right with these symptoms of DP/DR. Other people -- 90% of my close friends I've known for 30 years have no clue what DP/DR are despite how many ways I try to explain. They don't have it. We do. And it is good to know, I am not alone. As again, from 1958 until 1999, I thought I was the only person in the world with these symptoms. I had a NAME for the symptom, but thought I was completely alone. Again, I grew up where there was NO internet, and for that matter no Prozac/SSRIs! I grew up in a different time. And psychoanalysis for example was a first choice of treatment, not medication.

One of my early doctors when I was in University was a wonderful man. An M.D. psychiatrist whose work was based on Bowlby sp? and a very psychoanalytic model of my abuse. He was wonderful. I got a BA and and MA because of his emotional support. He was NOT a destructive psychoanalyst at all. And he didn't have much medication to give me. And despite all of my efforts, I did not improve during the years I worked with him. My illness remained severe. The second psychoanalyst in California made me even worse -- and actually "liked" me, though he was married. Nothing inappropriate ever happened, but he was more a "friend" than a doctor. It was VERY destructive.

*I simply hope we can share information and take it or leave it.
And you can write comments to the DSM-5 group again at: http://www.dsm5.org/Pages/Default.aspx*

*New York,* I have printed out your comments and will take some time to go over them.
All we all want to do is get better. I can't believe that isn't true.

Have a closer look at the changes being made to the Dissociative Disorders. There is a debate on drug-induced ... they have not decided upon that, vs. non drug-induced. Also, "fugue" has now moved under Dissociative Amnesia. There are reasons for these changes. Not every doctor or researcher may agree, but as noted, the DSM has changed DRAMATICALLY, and I'd say overall for the better since 1952 ... imagine the FIRST DSM. It is full of such misinformation. But so were many medical textbooks at that time. We learn. We change. We evolve.

http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevision/Pages/DissociativeDisorders.aspx


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## violetgirl (Apr 11, 2011)

Everybody who's been abused will end up with PTSD in some way or another. PTSD is a meaningless term, made up by the psychiatric system, to fit us all into neat categories. But you cannot treat the brain like the body. Trauma shows up in our bodies and minds in different ways. To have a category called 'PTSD' invalidates all the other ways people process and experience trauma. OCD is PTSD. It's the mind's way of avoiding pain, by using obsessions to relieve stress and tension. Anxiety is the body still in 'fight or flight'. Chronic anger is PTSD, as the person hasn't been allowed to express themselves or process the trauma. Even chronic pain can be body memories.

'Generalised Anxiety Disorder' is another stupid term made up by the system. A person is anxious because they are traumatised. They do not develop a disorder. An emotional response is not a disorder, it's a perfectly valid expression of extreme pain.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

violetgirl said:


> I wish people would realise that trauma doesn't have to be something big. Having parents who are afraid of strong emotions is traumatising, because it makes you feel your feelings are wrong. So you surpress, and this leads to all kinds of issues. Feeling responsible for other people's emotions, not allowing yourself to feel, guilt, shame etc. All factors in getting DP.
> 
> Also, as you say Pablo, society invalidates feelings. It views anger as a dangerous emotion and judges it, instead of asking WHY a person is angry. Chronic anger is usualy rooted in a abuse. We need anger to survive, it's an important emotion that we need to acknowledge. And yes there is a sexist idea that men shouldn't express themselves emotionally, which may be part of the reason they have such a high suicide rate compared to women.
> 
> I had no idea I had been abused until a psychologist pointed out that my parents sounded narcissistic, and then all my behaviour fell into place. Everybody thinks their parents are normal, because we have nothing to compare it to. And if you have been abused and feeling a lot of guilt, you're not going to want to challenge what you know. There are many systems in place in your mind, the family and society to stop you from questioning abuse.


I think the issue of invalidating peoples feelings is a pretty wide issue in general, there are many belief systems in society which can invalidate you, religions are full of them and many cultures have unique ones just for themselves, for example in the UK people go on about you should have a "stiff upper lip" which for many people just means deny your feelings; Japan has a huge culture around shame which invalidates all sorts of feelings and leads to loads of suicides; and in the US (correct me if i'm wrong as I havent been there for years) there is a big drive towards "positive thinking" and competitiveness, which means that it is viewed as a real value judgement on you as a person to have feelings like defeat and hopelessnes. But if you want to be a complete human being you have to claim the right to your whole spectrum of human emotions without shame, which includes the right to feel defeated, depressed, hopeless, angry, scared etc as much as the positive ones.


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## violetgirl (Apr 11, 2011)

It's actually quite depressing, isn't it? Just seeing the systems in place around us that invalidate. How is anyone supposed to be happy in this world?

The belief system that the parent is always right, started by the 10 commandments 'Honour thy Mother and Father', is the most awful invalidating system of all. The amount of abuse this must have enabled must be so widespread.

Yes, the UK and the USA need a happy medium, because both ends of the spectrum are pretty damaging.

Find your own space, and heal yourself as best you can. That's all we can do really.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

violetgirl said:


> It's actually quite depressing, isn't it? Just seeing the systems in place around us that invalidate. How is anyone supposed to be happy in this world?
> 
> The belief system that the parent is always right, started by the 10 commandments 'Honour thy Mother and Father', is the most awful invalidating system of all. The amount of abuse this must have enabled must be so widespread.
> 
> ...


Yes for us to become sane and complete people we may have to break free from all sorts of family and cultural structures which is quite a lonely path to take. "It's no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" yet it takes a lot of courage to walk alone and break free from it, i'm still trying to myself yet I also need community and support which leaves me in a bit of a limbo.


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## violetgirl (Apr 11, 2011)

Pablo, that's exactly what I had to do to get well. I feel like I'm in some weird sci-fi movie, where everyone seems to be in this massive system that I've escaped from.

I escaped my parents system, family system, cultural, gender, everything. I had to look at life in a clinical way, took away all the labels and the emotions we project onto things. Life feels more empty, but I am a lot happier.


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## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

I would say DP is comorbid oth complex post traumatic stress disorder

Which most ppl from dysfunctional & traumatic families acquire


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