# Les Misérables's Recovery Story.



## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

Before I share and go in depth on my personal narrative of recovery, I must first and foremost establish and lay out as a foundation for the sake of my story a few specific things:

1. The chief, bottom line certainty: I am absolutely and permanently recovered. I no longer suffer or am at disadvantage from the toxicity of my own thoughts. I take full and absolute responsibility for what I am thinking and feeling without any hint of doubt. I sought and seek no assistance or reassurance for my doubts. I am my own. I am at peace. DP/DR does not exist to me.

2. I am not writing this to undermine or criticize anyone on their own method of recovery nor am I seeking any criticism. This entire post is for the benefit of the reader who is encased in his/her own fear and self-doubt. I desire to share and extend my own understanding and compassion for those led ashtray in the fog of dismay and confusion of this condition based on my personal experience.

3. I know what you're going through. I know what it's like seeing the world like you do. Nothing seems real. You're running around in circles in your head and nothing makes sense to you. Each day feels the same. You're losing hope and you fear you might stay this way forever. Solidified by fear, by the whispers in your head continuously constructing scenarios in your head to continuously make you doubt the objective reality surrounding you. The depression has it claws around your neck. You don't know what to do. Nobody can help you because they don't understand what you're going through unless they're going through it like you are. And your condition is so rare, because every therapist you've been to doesn't know a thing about disassociation. This is what frightens you the most. Nobody understands. You're stuck alone in your body. You can't force your way out. It's suffocating you. You feel extremely claustrophobic in your own body. Everything around you seems like a reflection on a mirror. You can't get out of your own head to verify the validity of existence. Life seems pointless. You've lost all hope. Yes, I know what you're going through.

My name is Jurgen and I am currently 18 years old. I first experienced disassociation (DP/DR) when I was 16. Two years ago. The onset of my disassociation was caused by an existential crisis. It was about death. I thought about what it would be like if I would never see my loved ones again after their death. If the concept of an "afterlife" didn't really exist and this was all we really had to enjoy until our very last breath. Typically I would think about stuff like this but not to such an extreme. On one particular day, it hit me like a ton of bricks. I hadn't realized how much of an impact it had on me until I finally woke up the next morning after thinking about the scenario very thoroughly from the night before.

This was when my entire life as you can imagine it spiraled downward into the very core of an abyss unlike I had ever endured before. Anything and everything good you could possibly fathom was plunged into darkness. A darkness so pure and evil it would instantly dissolve any purity or sanity you may have ever had. My perception had been warped. It was as if somebody had cast a spell on me overnight. Everything seemed surreal and there was an incessant pounding in my cerebellum I could not explain. A total loss of hope and survival. I felt like this was it. I was going to literally lose my mind. Panic, anxiety, DP/DR, PTSD, literally all at once. I was forced to the ER about 5 times because I was in constant fear and panic. I thought I was going to die. I couldn't not explain the internal transformation that was occurring.

At this time I was at high disadvantage. My therapist did not understand my condition and was completely useless to me. The doctors I had consulted performed several tests (EKG, ultrasound, etc) to see if there was anything wrong with me and there wasn't. My loved ones didn't understand either. I was literally all by myself forced to face my own unconscious demons. Unfortunately, had I faced them sooner instead of suppressing them, I never would have relapsed. And that's what I did. I suppressed them.

Things were horrible, of course. I slept for hours everyday. Sleep was my only remedy and escape from the horror I had been enduring. Day by day, I eventually got better and moved on. I didn't have any support. I did it all by myself. Because of this experience, I had to drop out of Highschool as I couldn't talk to anyone. Everything scared me. I couldn't concentrate. All I could think about was my helplessness and horror. I was drowning in it.

As months passed on, I recovered on my own by simply moving on and living my life. I was temporarily relieved of the burden until a year later after my recovery that I relapsed.

This time it was different. More evolved, much scarier. My body temperature had gone down and it was almost as if I was running a fever because I was always cold. I had disassociated again. The pounding in my cerebellum returned and I felt that if I lost control I would surely die. I had disassociated because at the time I was practicing Kundalini yoga. As I was researching it, I encountered a personal account of someone who had practiced it and experienced negative results. He suffered from disassociation and felt like he had lost his soul to it. This is what hit me. I once again disassociated.

I had been disassociated since then. I suffered from existential thoughts, unreality, a complete obliteration of what was normal to me. In this little rut, to only make matters worse, I discovered this forum. This was probably the best and the worst discovery of my life. This forum had cut my eyes open to more problems than I was ready to face. Scavenging through the threads for hope on recovery, I came across so many disturbing thoughts people were having. The worst which sent me deeper down the rabbit hole of disassociation was the concept of "Solipsism". For those of you already familiar with the concept/philosophy, you can only imagine what would've been like for me. For those of you who don't know it, don't bother looking it up. It's useless and will just scare you for no reason.

This was when my true transformation began. I questioned literally everything. If people were real, if they had consciousness, if reality existed objectively of my consciousness. If I was just a brain in a vat. Any metaphysical concept you can think of is what was coursing through my mind. I have been through it all. I literally felt like a body with a world inside of it. Nothing was real beyond me. I felt like I had lost everyone and everything. It was through this I had discovered my biggest strength. I began researching human nature, existentialism, looking for validity of an objective world beyond my own mind. For several months until now.

Recently I began practicing and going in depth with mindfulness meditation and Buddhism. I researched the truths. And I have been liberated. One thing I had established as an axiom which helped relieve me of my Solipsistic fear was that in order to communicate such notion of Solipsism, you need a language to construct syntax and semantics as a foundation. If not for language, how would we communicate ideas to each other? How would we convey any sort of meaning? How does one truly express and define "consciousness" in context if they lacked consciousness themselves? Why would there be any need for "death" if all of these beings lacked consciousness to begin with? We understand consciousness because we can differentiate between what it's like to be conscious and to be unconscious. A sentience.

And then I experienced yet another epiphany. All I had been was just a thought. My whole life story was just truly in my imagination. I was living someone else's life. All of these words, good and bad, are definitions of the mind. They are not real. They are granted existence only from the mind. They were crafted by someone else's imagination. Do you understand what this means? There is no good or bad, depression or sadness, disassociation, etc. These are all just WORDS. Labels. A limitation that tries to bind you. If there were no language to formulate and render these ideas, we would NOT have the opportunity to explore them. We would be cavemen, predators.

These were the same words that caused me grief. I had been dualistic, sadly mistaken. Once I realized this, I began searching more and more. I studied the teachings of the Sage Adyashanti and became enlightened. It was as if my senses were restored and my soul had returned to my body. I am not mentioning what I have learned because I will provide links on the bottom for you to read on your own coupled with quotes. Finally, I had seen the light. I was where I was before DP, before my existential thoughts, a newly refined warrior. My hope was restored, and I am living life to the fullest.

"The idea that the mind needs to calm down is just another spiritual belief put forward by the progressive approach to meditation. It's a diversionary tactic designed by the mind, which loves to do battle with itself. Try as hard as you can, you'll never get the mind to settle down. Indeed, all your efforts to calm it just make it more agitated. Rather, let the mind do what it does, and rest as the primordial awareness that isn't disturbed by the perturbations of the mind. The mind's nature is to move, but you are not your mind; you're limitless, silent, ungraspable presence. Paradoxically, of course, when you leave the mind alone, it tends to calm down by itself."
Stephan Bodian

"The absolute letting go is letting go of the one who is letting go."
Adyashanti, Emptiness Dancing

"The most difficult thing for spiritual seekers to do is to stop struggling, striving, seeking, and searching. Why? Because in the absence of struggle you don't know who you are; you lose your boundaries, you lose your separateness, you lose your specialness, you lose the dream you have lived all your life. Eventually you lose everything that your mind has created and awaken to who you truly are: the fullness of freedom, unbound by any identifications, identities, or boundaries."
Adyashanti

"If you have any image of what the Truth is, slay it immediately because that's not it."
Adyashanti, Emptiness Dancing

"I have steered away this evening from talking about many of the positive aspects of enlightenment, but there is no way you could really see the truth and not be giggling in some way for the rest of your life. There is no way that you couldn't just love this world to death, even though you know it's not half as real as you thought it was. There is no way you could not love people a hundred times more, even though you know that they're not what you thought they were. But I don't want to speak too much about that because the mind starts to think it's being handed candy when it's not. It's being handed a sword."

Links.
http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1814&Itemid=0&limit=1&limitstart=1

http://buddhism.about.com/od/theeightfoldpath/a/Mindfulness-Of-Feelings.htm

So yes. This is my recovery story. This is what helped me recover. You are free to do what you wish with this knowledge. It is here for your own benefit. If you need further clarification and understanding, I will be more than happy to teach you the way into the light.


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2014)

Great story, I'm learning to accept my feelings too.

For example, I used to run around like "Oh no, I can't feel pleasure, I'm emotionally numb"

I realized how stupid that was and regret all the time I wasted trying to fix how I felt.

I never lost my feelings, I just never felt what I wanted to.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

seafoam mellow said:


> Great story, I'm learning to accept my feelings too.
> 
> For example, I used to run around like "Oh no, I can't feel pleasure, I'm emotionally numb"
> 
> ...


You have to acknowledge it. Experience it fully with detachment. That's what I did. I allowed myself to dread. I didn't judge what I was feeling. I just allowed myself to feel.


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## Pyrite (Mar 25, 2014)

I never liked the Buddhists style of thinking which treats all adversity like an illusion or fabrication.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

Yoshiki said:


> Is the DP/DR actually gone, or is it till there but doesn't bother you ?


It's gone.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

Yoshiki said:


> Holy crap, like 100% gone ?
> 
> I mean, I don't expect your perception to be 100% this early on, but your DR is actually gone ?


All gone. Everything's peachy. DR no longer exists to me.


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## JJ123D (Dec 6, 2013)

Les Misérables said:


> And then I experienced yet another epiphany. All I had been was just a thought. My whole life story was just truly in my imagination. I was living someone else's life. All of these words, good and bad, are definitions of the mind. They are not real. They are granted existence only from the mind. They were crafted by someone else's imagination. Do you understand what this means? There is no good or bad, depression or sadness, disassociation, etc. These are all just WORDS. Labels. A limitation that tries to bind you. If there were no language to formulate and render these ideas, we would NOT have the opportunity to explore them. We would be cavemen, predators.
> 
> "The absolute letting go is letting go of the one who is letting go."
> Adyashanti, Emptiness Dancing
> ...


I'm glad that you are feeling well, that's my only positive comment to this thread.

I'm not trying to get in an argument with you, but I feel I should say this for anyone reading this thread.

The very things that you think made you cured, are the very things that got me and others our DP.

Just read what you wrote. Read your quotes. You are treating your life as an illusion, treating everything as merely labels, saying that there is no good and no bad. This is EXACTLY the biggest symptom of DP. And you say you are cured. You are not cured, you are just comfortable with having DP, you chose to be "nothing" instead of being something.
I don't wish for you to face difficulties in life, and maybe you won't, some people like those philosophers and their followers choose this, but for me, I could not live in the REAL world with this belief, or if like they and you call it, with no belief, with no self.

There is life, there is good and there is bad. You CHOOSE who you want to BE. It is true that your life and who you are is in your mind, but it is REAL. You can train yourself to differentiate real thoughts from delusions, you can train yourself to be who you want to be.
You don't need to make it an illusion and "let go" everything, you need to develop yourself and face life like a MAN. Not like a "FLOWER", like these philosophers say. You have your MIND for a reason, you are a human being, use it.

This is mainly my message to the readers, because you are not looking for criticism. But as I experienced this myself, I needed to explain to others what this is.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

> The very things that you think made you cured


Not "think", it did.



> Just read what you wrote. Read your quotes. You are treating your life as an illusion, treating everything as merely labels, saying that there is no good and no bad. This is EXACTLY the biggest symptom of DP. And you say you are cured. You are not cured, you are just comfortable with having DP, you chose to be "nothing" instead of being something.
> I don't wish for you to face difficulties in life, and maybe you won't, some people like those philosophers and their followers choose this, but for me, I could not live in the REAL world with this belief, or if like they and you call it, with no belief, with no self.


Please don't misconstrue what I said. I'm recovered. I am no longer "DP'd." I'm not sure how you mistake being permanently recovered with being "comfortable with DP". I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about when it concerns me personally.

Additionally, it's evident you have an unclear understanding of Adyashanti's teachings. Your response makes you sound extremely ignorant and arrogant. If you need clarification, please ask for it appropiately without trying to comfort your ignorance.


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## Letgoandletgod (Nov 17, 2012)

Les Miserables,

Thank you for sharing your recovery story. The more recovery stories I read the more I start to feel that recovery is some predetermine point in the future and there is nothing that can facilitate or speed up the process.

Some on here say that Marijuana was the cause while others say that Marijuana cured them. Some say that prescription drugs caused DP while others say the exact same drug cured them. Some say that intense introspection caused DP while other say it cured them. Some say meditation helped while in my case meditation was the trigger for my DP.

I've been practicing meditation for many years prior to "falling into" depersonalization. I would travel overseas to sit with various teachers and attend retreats. At one poitn I was sitting in formal mediation for roughly 8 hrs/day for almost a year. I had a "spiritual awakening" I can to the realization that I was not the individual/personal self but that I was pure consciousness. My practice for that point on was rest as this consciousness and constantly and consciously questioning "who am I?

My life during this period of many years was most sublime. I was gone as a person but existed as something much more profound... I simply was the "I AM". I continued to push my mediation practice further and further as my personality dissolved more and more. The quality was so much different than DP, it was pure, crispy, luminous and full of life. One day about two years ago, during a retreat, I was sitting in mediation, the meditation became very intense and I went further and further into it. The intensity was unlike anything I ever experienced, I became a bit intimidated by the intensity and I opened my eyes and "POOF" I was DPed hard-core. Kundalini energies started rousing in my body, I feel like I blew the top of my head out, I felt very palpable and powerful energies pulling me out through the top of my head. I was convinced that I would end up institutionalized, the experience was so intense... I could not handle it.

The more I used spirituality(meditation/self-inquiry) to help my case the more depersonalized and disorientated I became. This is why it blows my mind that you said that spirituality has been your solution. Adya(whom I met and spoke to personally prior to DP) is clearly aligned with a non-dual(teaching that our individual existance and reality is an illusion) approach(as are the majority of teachers) so I'm not understanding how you disagree with JD in regards to misunderstanding Adya's teachings.

You said that Kundalini yoga triggered your second episode of DP. I woudl like to hear more about this if you don't mind.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

There is an underlying distinction between spiritual teachers and everyday people who go about their lives not taking the time to practice meditation because they are surrounded by real-world problems. I am one of those people. I do not practice meditation because I am already equipped with knowledge of the truths. Meditation isn't necessary for me. Only when I need it.

I'm not sure you understand what Adya means to convey. Some spiritual teachers often do not take caution in elaborating or simplifying what they are trying to explain to other lesser sort of fledged spiritualists. He has never directly inferred that reality as a whole is illusory in a literal sense. I think he specified this in particular in some of his teachings. The words used translating the understanding spiritualists have are typically very slippery which is why the teacher generally encourages the disciples to go search on his or her own.

Mystical experiences are akin to the ego or "false-self" as Adya likes to call it experiencing an ego disruption. As you said before, you became more disorientated and depersonalized by meditating. You are taking it to an extreme or you are still identifying with the ego.

I am not ready to give everything up. I don't think you have to. The biggest impact tantric teachings have had on my mind was acknowledging the falsehood of the ego to an extent not necessarily eliminating it as it is necessary and required because that's how we operate in modern society. Without it there would be no advancements. It's a yin and yang. A duality. Without the other you cannot fully embrace it as a whole.


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## JJ123D (Dec 6, 2013)

Why are calling me ignorant? Didn't your mom teach you better?

Anyone like you following these dumb teachings and think they are cured are the ignorant ones.

"No good and no bad, nothing is real" - Lol, what a brainwashed idiot. Good luck in the real world brainless miserable.


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## planet (Feb 5, 2014)

I think its impossible to recover from cannbis induced dp and dr -.-


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## kelly326 (Dec 10, 2013)

I have read this recovery story more than once, it's a great story and makes a lot of sense!! Thank you again for sharing!!


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## cacophony (May 28, 2012)

JJ123D said:


> Why are calling me ignorant? Didn't your mom teach you better?
> 
> Anyone like you following these dumb teachings and think they are cured are the ignorant ones.
> 
> "No good and no bad, nothing is real" - Lol, what a brainwashed idiot. Good luck in the real world brainless miserable.


w0w


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## ourworldsgreatest (Feb 27, 2012)

planet said:


> I think its impossible to recover from cannbis induced dp and dr -.-


With that attitude you will never recover. Kinda pointless to have that attitude since people have recovered from cannabis induced dpdr...


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## Simone1986 (Apr 13, 2014)

What happened with your visual snow?


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## heartless (Apr 29, 2013)

bill said:


> There's a fully grown "man" wearing a lion mask, giving advice to a person who has recovered from DP/DR, wishing HIM good luck in the REAL world.
> 
> What's the world coming to.


Honest 2 god, I don't want JJ to be offended in any way.

But the sarcasm in this post made me laugh. HARD.


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## heartless (Apr 29, 2013)

Les miserables - "there is no good or bad" etc - I couldn't disagree more.


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## Pyrite (Mar 25, 2014)

heartless said:


> Les miserables - "there is no good or bad" etc - I couldn't disagree more.


I think good and bad occur on a spectrum, so that nothing is ever entirely bad or good; it would just get really hard to find the tiny bit of good or bad at the extremes,but not impossible.

Good and bad are up to our judgement and things can move along this spectrum as the way we view the world changes, but categorizing something as good or bad is part of how we interact with our world, something made us feel that way, so it is far from being entirely a fabrication.

If you're dealing with something you have no way of changing, then the best thing to do is change your mind about it.


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

Congratulations, you are no longer Les Miz?! You got the name from the musical?

Wonderful.

*I cannot believe that people are angry all the time that there is no recovery story, then when there is one like this, the person gets bashed.*

*I say, whatever floats your boat. Why attack how someone gets well? This mystifies me.*

But in *my* understanding of the *Zen *Buddhism of Thich Nhat Hahn, I don't think anyone arguing against Buddhism understands Buddhism here. It is really very simple, and easily translates into Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, sort of Buddhist CBT.

In the very simplest nutshell, this is the thinking behind Buddhism.

*"I long to accomplish a great and noble task, but it is my chief duty to accomplish small tasks as if they were great and noble. We have to learn to live happily in the present moment, to touch the peace and joy that are available now." - Thich Nhat Hanh*

That's it. Full stop.

In a more broad definition -- but you need to study it (it is very simple and logical, but *applying it is work*) ....

There are *"Four Noble Truths" and "The EIghtfold Path"*

- The first of the Four Noble Truths is Dukkha, which means suffering or dissatisfaction, and is often stated as: there is suffering. We all are aware of the external sufferings of the world: violence, poverty, etc., but to free ourselves from suffering, we must first acknowledge that suffering exists within ourselves. The first Noble Truth is telling us to look deep inside and self-reflect on what it is that we do mentally, emotionally, and psychologically that causes our own suffering.

I don't know how this could be stated more clearly. I won't proceed with the other Truths ... then the way to deal with these facts one tries to follow the Eight Fold Path:

*Following the Noble Eightfold Path is a continuous practice in which we must try to be aware and conscious of how our actions, thoughts, words, and intentions affect others. By doing what is right and compassionate towards others, we will overcome our suffering.*

_1) Right Understanding_

_2) Right Intention_

_3) Right Speech_

_4) Right Action_

_5) Right Livelihood_

_6) Right Effort_

_7) Right Mindfulness_

_  Right Concentration_

*This self reflection is used in DBT with the following skills:*

_1. Core Mindfulness Skills_

_2. Interpersonal Effectiveness Skills_

_3. Emotion Modulation Skills_

_4. Distress Tolerance Skills_

When I attended a four month group program, I was with patients with many problems, depression, bipolar, anxiety, etc. This was created for Borderline Personality Disorder, but it is even used by the staff at U. of Michigan and large companies use this same technique to improve worker satisfaction and productivity.

Here is an example. Well one here is easy ... everyone here who is terrified they have schizophrenia is causing themselves suffering, personal suffering. Many individuals do not seek medical help for their concerns, question a diagnosis, they jump to the worst possible conclusion.

I call myself "The Queen of Doom" as I see the negative in everything. All that does is drive you up a wall. If you apply these skills you can indeed calm your mind.

Example:
You are a woman who is very in love with a man. He happens to travel a lot. So when the two of you are together, you have a great time, but he is often away. However there is absolutely no reason to feel he is anything but monogamous, and loves you.

Well, one weekend he goes on a business trip. Usually you are in touch by email or phone. Well, on this weekend, 24 hours passes and you haven't heard from him:

The wrong thing to do:
1. Assume he's having an affair

2. Assume he doesn't love you anymore

3. Assume you did something stupid, and now he is angry with you ...

It goes on and on and on, and you can drive yourself CRAZY (a metaphor here!) trying to "know" what you can't know, making assumptions, speculations. You are living in the unknown, you are speculating endlessly, you can't focus ... you are NOT LIVING IN THE PRESENT and being less emotional.

You need to balance rational thinking and emotional thinking.

So, the woman is very worried, crying, angry, yada, yada, yada. Well, the truth is, the man got on a plane that had mechanical problems. He was stuck at a gate for hours, he was then forced to wait somewhere else at the airport at 3am, his cell phone didn't work everywhere he went, he was then immediately put on another plane and had to wait in another city (this has happened to me in real life!).

Everything the woman thought was going on, was not. The MAN was having some real life problems communicating with her. And she had read everything BAD into the situation.

Well, if you focus in the present, you are not worrying constantly. If you are Mindful, you take the time to do things. You don't rush. You don't jump to conclusions. You don't try to control the future and you don't try to live in the past.

Also, throwing a fit and screaming at someone else (say she DID get ahold of the guy and she accused him of cheating) -- well, that only hurts someone else, etc.

It's impossible for me to write all of this out.

But Buddhist thought is acknowledging that life is very difficult for all of us. There are tools we can use that can make it simpler and calmer.

Some of these things is to lose THE TRAPPINGS OF LIFE -- excess. Collecting things or feelings, or resentments that serve no purpose. One strives to view the individual, each individual as having worth, and due respect. You realize you are part of a greater whole -- however you wish to define it ... part of the Universe ... whatever ... and to release your fears of the unknown and don't replace them with false beliefs.

I could carry on. But this is USED as therapy. And it works. It takes a ton of work.

Les Miz, has found her own path with this. Wny beat her up?

Also, you need to study Buddhism (and there are many variations) to understand it. You have to understand Christianity or Judaism or whatever, or study a particular fied of knowledge to understand its workings.

Perhaps something doesn't exactly fit your belief systems, but if you return to the basics ... well, I won't carry on.
The techniques of Zen Buddhism and the writing of Thich Nhat Hann have helped me. But they have not cured my DP/DR. But they have improved the quality of my life. Read ONE of this man's books, "The Miracle of Mindfulness" -- no one bashing Buddhism will find one description they have given. The book is very thin. A very short read. VERY easy to read. And think through it slowly. Also, read "Just One Thing" by Rick Hanson who is a scholar on Buddhist thought. A great workbook for keeping your sanity -- staying in the present and getting the most out of it.

Ah, it's impossible to explain it. Letting go of Self -- no one understands it. What you let go of is the concept that life is permanent. It isn't. We are just passing through, and if so, we should live NOW, simply. And one can be a Christian and use Buddhist ritual at the same time. It's a logical way of mixing reason and emotion.

But also that isn't to say that some people who have done certain forms of meditation react badly to it, and can fall into a DP/DR state.

Ah, my fingers hurt.
Very glad for you Les Miz.
I tried.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

Pyrite said:


> I think good and bad occur on a spectrum, so that nothing is ever entirely bad or good; it would just get really hard to find the tiny bit of good or bad at the extremes,but not impossible.
> 
> Good and bad are up to our judgement and things can move along this spectrum as the way we view the world changes, but categorizing something as good or bad is part of how we interact with our world, something made us feel that way, so it is far from being entirely a fabrication.
> 
> If you're dealing with something you have no way of changing, then the best thing to do is change your mind about it.


They are mostly fabrications based on societies moral constructs which designates a collective IDEA for the rest of humanity. Like killing another human being is considered wrong in one state BUT killing someone will result in your own demise because then they will pass on the death penalty. Then it becomes considered "justice" when the whole thing was initially caused by killing.


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

Les Misérables said:


> They are mostly fabrications based on societies moral constructs which designates a collective IDEA for the rest of humanity. Like killing another human being is considered wrong in one state BUT killing someone will result in your own demise because then they will pass on the death penalty. Then it becomes considered "justice" when the whole thing was initially caused by killing.


Les Miz,

I would disagree with this. A Buddhist would never condone killing. And it is not because there are laws against it. The laws stem not from punishment but from the fact that killing another human being is contrary to treating others with compassion. It also is counterproductive to survival.

Also, a Buddhist would not attribute bad things to "Satan" but to an individual who has not made a wise choice. One must take responsiblity for one's actions.

Concepts are social constructs. Buddhism seeks to take responsiblity for ourselves which then allows us to be compassionate to others.

Unlike Christianity where you are forgiven for sins if you believe in Christ's Resurrection, well this is contrary to Buddhism. You must take responsiblity for the negative actions you commit. And there is no Satan so to speak.

At least this is my understanding from what I have studied and practiced.
Self defense of course would not be counted.

I understand what you are saying to an extent, but I can't articulate it properly. There is no "good and evil" and yet there are postive actions and negative actions which affect ourselves and others. And they are all very logical. Stealing, killing, lying, clinging to an extreme belief, etc., etc. These are what weigh us down and keep us from being more positive contributors to society.

And there is also the concept by some of bad Karma. But I am not one to believe in reincarnation, etc.


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

And clinging to ANY social construct really is what the Buddhist wishes to move away from. Everything in moderation including moderation.
Bottom line, there are consequences for personal actions. If you follow the Eightfold Path, you are not going to murder someone.


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## Midnight (Jul 16, 2011)

*Dreamer* said:


> Congratulations, you are no longer Les Miz?! You got the name from the musical?
> 
> Wonderful.
> 
> ...


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## Pyrite (Mar 25, 2014)

Les Misérables said:


> They are mostly fabrications based on societies moral constructs which designates a collective IDEA for the rest of humanity. Like killing another human being is considered wrong in one state BUT killing someone will result in your own demise because then they will pass on the death penalty. Then it becomes considered "justice" when the whole thing was initially caused by killing.


And people should be aware of what is influencing their opinion and adjust accordingly. This is far more complicated then your making it out be; if we just abandoned all of our fabricated ideas of good and bad and moral constructs then we would also be eliminating things like human rights . Its just a collection of fabricated ideas of right and wrong, but despite that it has influenced and guided us extensively. We've also long since decided that eugenics is wrong because of the awful moral implications; on a totally objective level eugenics is the solution to a lot of problems, but we don't do it because of our fabricated morals.

And the killing thing you mentioned is simple hypocrisy, and people are often hypocritical, but that just means we have a long way to go as far as being true to our ideals is concerned.

This is a flawed system, but that's only because humans are imperfect and anything we create will share that quality with us. We need to be aware of these flaws, instead of trying to get rid of the flawed aspects of humanity in their entirety.

I think that if we ever got to a point where humanity gave up the concepts of good and bad, we would solve problems and create just as many more.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

*Dreamer* said:


> Les Miz,
> I would disagree with this. A Buddhist would never condone killing. And it is not because there are laws against it. The laws stem not from punishment but from the fact that killing another human being is contrary to treating others with compassion. It also is counterproductive to survival.
> 
> Also, a Buddhist would not attribute bad things to "Satan" but to an individual who has not made a wise choice. One must take responsiblity for one's actions.
> ...


You have misinterpreted the meaning of what was written in my response.

Buddhists understand "non-duality" to mean emptiness, void, a pit of silence. "Non-duality" is considered to be the true nature of our experience. The Ego itself is simply a useful mechanism in our attempts to understand and reconstruct the world around us. It's similar to the development of a newborn who lacks an awareness of its own conception until it finally engrossed into stages of maturity.


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

Sorry. And good Lord people, there are a lot of longer incomprehensible posts than mine on here. Cheers. 
My Dialectical Behavioral Therapy based on Thich Nhat Hahn has some variation from your Buddhist concepts.
There are many different sects of Buddhism as there are in Christianity, Judaism, name a religion.


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## Feanor (May 11, 2014)

I like your post very much, specially because of way you think. I am new with dp but i see it like a window in true, non illusion world. just need to get it right. bless


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## Braud (May 29, 2014)

Feanor said:


> I like your post very much, specially because of way you think. I am new with dp but i see it like a window in true, non illusion world. just need to get it right. bless


Hey Feanor, i thought it myself too when my mind changed 2.5 years ago. It is in a way a window in true, but i'm not too sure anymore, because even after making a lot of changes in my life, i still can't get the feeling that i'm ok. I think everyone here is trying to get it right..


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