# Smart tms



## Messirocks (May 29, 2019)

smarttms.co.uk claims that they can treat do.what do u all think about it?


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## Messirocks (May 29, 2019)

*dp


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## 35467 (Dec 31, 2010)

ding-dong


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## Messirocks (May 29, 2019)

I have brain MRI scan 3.1 ton.i am gonna try at the top of my head


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## Messirocks (May 29, 2019)

I will ask if they have neuro navigation


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## 35467 (Dec 31, 2010)

ding-dong


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## Messirocks (May 29, 2019)

There was a person in depersonalization group in FB who had 85 % benefit by doing rtms at the top.i am gonna try it all.side top back front everywhere but I think it's in the top where the problem is.


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## Messirocks (May 29, 2019)

And Thanks


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## Messirocks (May 29, 2019)

My TMS experiences: There is hope after a first failed attempt! Ask your doc to include 10 min on each side of the Bilateral supplemental motor area in addition to the standard protocol (usually only the right and/or left side of the brain).

TMS is an outpatient treatment. It is not painful. If you are desperate because meds have not worked for you, it is worth giving it a try.

* note- I have included 2 links below. The first is an article about TMS and treatment especially for DP. The second is a news clip explaining TMS.

For those of you thinking about trying rTMS therapy for DP, the typical protocol for regular anxiety and depression is 36 sessions for approximately 30 minutes per session. The right side of the brain is usually treated and sometimes a couple of minutes on the left.

This is what has/has not worked for me with rTMS for DP:

First time around: 6 months ago, I had 36 sessions of TMS therapy over a 6-week period. I had the right side treated for 25 minutes and 10 on the left. The right side of the brain is the target area for depression while the left side if for anxiety. I felt NO improvement.

My Second time around (currently in progress): As of today, I have completed 30 of my 36 sessions. I have experienced a significant amount of improvement due to a change in my protocol. Around 3 weeks into my treatment with no
improvement, my doctor changed my protocol to include a total of 20-minute pulses at the very top of my head. If you think about where the hair line typically parts in the middle, I received 10 minutes of pulses directly to the left and 10 directly to the right of the "hair part". Although I do not know the setting the machine was on for this particular area; since the right and left side of the brain is treated with different pulse settings, what I can tell you is this change made all the difference. Most TMS clinics should know the proper settings. My DP AND depression have reduced significantly. If I can put a number on it, I would say it improved by 85%. In addition to this new treatment area, I have continued with 20 minutes on the right side and 10 on my left.

I am incredibly lucky my insurance (United Healthcare) has agreed to cover a total of 1 hour or 36 treatments. Many other insurance companies cover it, but sometimes you have to be persistent. My clinic dealt with my insurance company.

The past two years has been pure hell for me. I can't believe I made it this far. Although I have been suffering with this horrible condition or 18 years, this recent period of time has been the worst.

NAMI- a non profit that may be helpful in finding resources.

Even though 18 years has been an incredibly long time, and it may sound scary to many of you, remember you can still live a happy life with this condition when it is managed properly. By this, I mean there have been significant stretches of time when I forgot that I had DP because my medication, 40 mg of Celexa, worked so well for me.

While on celexa, I got married, had 2 beautiful kids and was living a happy life until the celexa stopped working because my body became resistant. Over the past 2 years, I tried dozens of medications with no success (other than Adderall which helped because it is an ADHD drug that works by focusing the brain. Over this 2-year period, I was suicidal and in a very very dark place. It's not that I did not want to live; I just didn't want to live like this.

My bottom line: If your insurance does not cover TMS, I suggest trying the protocol I described for at least part of the time duration to see if you have any improvement. If you are able to pay out of pocket, I believe it is worth a try. I hope this info helps you.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4906152/






NAMI- a non profit that may be helpful finding resources


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## 35467 (Dec 31, 2010)

ding-dong


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## Messirocks (May 29, 2019)

You mean to say that rtms should be done on both dlpfc and vlpfc with low frequency on right and high on left


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## 35467 (Dec 31, 2010)

ding-dong


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## Messirocks (May 29, 2019)

I am gonna try rtms this coming week


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## 35467 (Dec 31, 2010)

ding-dong


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## Messirocks (May 29, 2019)

And you are an idiot


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## Messirocks (May 29, 2019)

Of this forum


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## faaramin (Aug 3, 2019)

There was a person in depersonalization group in FB who had 85 % benefit by doing rtms at the top.i am gonna try it all.side top back front everywhere but I think it's in the top where the problem is.


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## 35467 (Dec 31, 2010)

faaramin said:


> There was a person in depersonalization group in FB who had 85 % benefit by doing rtms at the top.i am gonna try it all.side top back front everywhere but I think it's in the top where the problem is.


Yes, he have stated many absurd statements and i replied him and corrected him. I have written with the women he mentions and she is very inaccurate but when he wrote he would try rTMS next week i knew that something was wrong. You can't not make appointment with such short notice for this disorder. So, i removed all my replies and wrote "Ding-dong". He is very close to be a spammer.


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## whatislife (Aug 19, 2019)

Messirocks said:


> My TMS experiences: There is hope after a first failed attempt! Ask your doc to include 10 min on each side of the Bilateral supplemental motor area in addition to the standard protocol (usually only the right and/or left side of the brain).
> 
> TMS is an outpatient treatment. It is not painful. If you are desperate because meds have not worked for you, it is worth giving it a try.
> 
> ...


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## whatislife (Aug 19, 2019)

I meant to reply to that quote up there. Where do you live Messirocks? My insurance would only cover left side treatment


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## 35467 (Dec 31, 2010)

whatislife said:


> I meant to reply to that quote up there. Where do you live Messirocks? My insurance would only cover left side treatment


Why are you adressering this retard and spammer? The text is a copy by a female called T.S who lives in Watchung, New Jersey and posted on the FB group "initiative for depersonalization studies". Messifucks has nothing to do with it. He can usually not come with more than one sentence posting full of punctuations errors. His claims about trying rTMS next week was a obvious lie from the start and he has never mentioned it since.

All rTMS in relation to depersonalisation is on the right side and inhibition 1.hz;

The right DLPFC

The right VLPFC

The right TPJ, are locations that has been tried. The typical rTMS treatment for depression is right DLPFC inhibition and/or left DLPFC stimulation. Some with depersonalisation have a response to that, 20-30%, The right VLPFC is likely to have a better effect. You need a MRI and a rTMS clinic that can use neuronavigation to make a location of VLPFC or TPJ. So, clinics are more limited for these locations as 90% do not have the equipment to do that.

A larger rTMS trail in France should be published the coming months. There the right angular gyrus is inhibited with the use of neuronavigation from a MRI scan.


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## Omnismorss (Jun 28, 2015)

How much does this treatment cost? I mean all the sessions and all.


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## 35467 (Dec 31, 2010)

Omnismorss said:


> How much does this treatment cost? I mean all the sessions and all.


You can not give an exact answer to that as its differs from country to county. In the US you can get some insurance companies to pay. But, they only cover for locations related to depression. These locations do not have a very effective effect on depersonalisation but you never know the price as the company pays. But, i am told that in the US the price pr. session is 200-250.dollars.

In the UK the price is around 400.punds for a consultation and 3000.punds for 20.sessions. They might give one sessions trails for 150.punds

The problem with rTMS for depersonalisation is the locations that are diffrent for the locaions used to treat depression, obsessive compulsive disorder. You need a clinic that have the equipment to use neuronavigation from a MRI scan and make a calibration to the exact area. 90% of the clinics today cannot do that. Some claim they can but there is a significant risk that the locations are wrong and you in reality are not treated. I think more clinics will have neuronavigation in the years to come. You also need people who know about all publications into depersonalisation disorder as several locations and networks are involved. Without that they might just try one location (that might be with a imprecise location) without effect.

I am in a contact with a rTMS clinic that didn't know about depersonalisation and a professor wrote they would look into the disorder. I am waiting for their reply. Their price is 100.euros pr. session, they have neuronavigition, consultation with psychiatrist is free and you have one before treatment and one at the end. In addition to that you might need to have taken a MRI scan of the whole surface of the brain in a format the can be used for location with the use of neuronavigation. That has to be made in a other location and the prize might be between 500-700.euros. So a total cost for rTMS+MRI for 20.sessions will be 2500.euros. Then travel and hotel. So, the problem is in reality the limitation of rTMS clinics that have the equipment and personal to give depersonalisation a fair trail. There is no problem in finding clinic that wants your money and claim it can do and then you can walk away with no effect and say; "rTMS didn't" work and I have tried it" when the reality might be that with the right locations 30.min of rTMS might reduce symptoms with 25%.


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## Aridity (Jun 12, 2011)

Mayer-Gross said:


> You can not give an exact answer to that as its differs from country to county. In the US you can get some insurance companies to pay. But, they only cover for locations related to depression. These locations do not have a very effective effect on depersonalisation but you never know the price as the company pays. But, i am told that in the US the price pr. session is 200-250.dollars.
> 
> In the UK the price is around 400.punds for a consultation and 3000.punds for 20.sessions. They might give one sessions trails for 150.punds
> 
> ...


With which clinic are you having contact? I've tried rTMS. But only 5 sessions., 3 sessions left and right DPLFC, left fast pulses and right slow. And the last 2 sessions we only did the right side. But I quit, because it made me so much worse. We did not use neuronavigation or anything just the thumb trick. I really want to try again though I just feel I haven't the right treatment.


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## 35467 (Dec 31, 2010)

Aridity said:


> With which clinic are you having contact? I've tried rTMS. But only 5 sessions., 3 sessions left and right DPLFC, left fast pulses and right slow. And the last 2 sessions we only did the right side. But I quit, because it made me so much worse. We did not use neuronavigation or anything just the thumb trick. I really want to try again though I just feel I haven't the right treatment.


I can not reveal right now the name and location because they have not replied me,-so i don't even know if they will take foreigners and try depersonalisation right now. If i have not heard anything from them within two weeks i will contact them. I think they might be waiting for the publication of a trail in France with more than 100.patients where the right angular gyrus in inhibited. There are likely two networks abnormal in depersonalisation. One that makes the emotional numbing, depersonalisation in the prefrontal cortex and another network for the other symptoms related to the "default mode network" -like the right TPJ or angular gyrus. In the rTMS trails done people reacts as if there are two network. So, to treat at two networks might give a more higher reduction. The french trail should lasted in 3.years and was finished 3.months ago. So, there should be a publication out soon.

The correct location for numbing in depersonalisation is the right ventrolateral prefrontal cortex and it is difficult to locate without neuronavigition.I am not aware of any private clinics in Europe that uses neuronavigation besides the one that i am in contact with. All rTMS clinics in the UK do not use neuronavigation and they claim they can treat depersonalisation. They go after the right TPJ that dosn´t have any effects on numbing and diifcualt to locate.

To do low frequency to the right DLPFC and high to the left DLPFC is a normal procedure for depression.These are large areas in the brain and easy to locate. It might work for depression with comorbid depersonalisation but not for depersonalisation as a disorder in it own right. There are seen some reductions in people after the right DLPFC has been inhibited but depression has also been present.

In one of trails done at Kings Collage for the right VLPFC they write about the right DLPFC; "Furthermore, low-frequency rTMS to the right DLPFC combined with H2O15 positron emission tomography revealed regional cerebral blood flow increases under the stimulation site as well as ipsilateral ventrolateral PFC [64]. Similarly, rTMS to right DLPFC in conjunction with an attention task produced changes detected using fMRI in both ipsi- and contra-lateral VLPFC [65]."

or put in other way. To inhibit the right DLPFC with rTMS might make the right VLPFC more active. In theory it could make more symptoms of depersonalisation if the right VLPFC is the most potent inhibitor of emotions in some people with depersonalisation. If rTMS is given to the right DLPFC it should be secondary to the right VLPFC as it might stimulate it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3968882/


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## teal (Oct 9, 2019)

Messirocks said:


> My bottom line: If your insurance does not cover TMS, I suggest trying the protocol I described for at least part of the time duration to see if you have any improvement. If you are able to pay out of pocket, I believe it is worth a try. I hope this info helps you.
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4906152/
> 
> ...


Is there any place where people can readily get rTMS and pay out of the pocket?

From the video, it looks non-invasive, simple and easy. Worth trying.


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