# To all University Students suffering from DP



## ash_is_sad (Oct 27, 2007)

I empathise with you, I'm in a similar boat. Im guessing many of us are art/audiovisual students, and often encounter challenging and tough lectures with stuff that has disturbing subject matter.

It doesn't do well with my anxiety, because I feel like something disturbing is about to happen, or I will become something disturbing, or the world...every second of everyday, which leads to derealization. But still, you have to sit there, and listen to these people you admire for their intellect, and write essays, and get on with it, harbouring this lonely secret, ploughing through despair or obsessive desires to go home and scribble self-monitoring notes.

And other students! They're the worst. From your DPed standpoint, they are whole, and perfect, strong and unaffected. You are weak, unable to cope, and want to have everything they do, but disallow you it. Some of them look good on the outside, but remain a mystery on the inside, and yet somehow you become stuck with them. The desire to be validated or find some validating niche or subculture is *so* hard when you're in Uni, you are completely overlooked, let alone if you have "dark issues" other students would be too perfect to understand. If you admire something, someone, somewhere, it seems out of reach because you feel like inhuman mist. You ideallise it. And when you're in it, you panic. Self esteem is looooow.

And you sit, alone, in your bedroom, wondering if you should call your parents, but the thought of how much grief that would fill you with is desperate. Just to hear their voices, innocent and unaware of the fact that you look like you are still a part of their perfect world, but in reality your mind feels like the beginning scene of Saving Private Ryan. And your outside world becomes this too, as you become more isolated in University. You can't tell anyone for fear of being judged or guilt of disturbing them. Or maybe you're lucky enough to have real friends. I didn't realise I had them, they moved away. I feel like I have absolutely no one left here, that is on my wavelength, or accessible.

I used to get desperate for understanding, and would go out, meet strangers, tell them my life, get rejected..it was messy. So I often sit in my bedroom alone. I've never felt grief or homesickness to the extent that I feel it for my home life, because I can never have it back. It symbolised happiness for me, safety, security, a life that was pleasant and not filled to the brim with disturbing emptiness or darkness. I could still empathise with others, with myself. I miss it so much.

Im not one for wallowing in self pity, so I apologise, Im having a weak day. It seems that if I stop obsessively monitoring, I feel extremely crap emotionally, so sometimes I wonder if I'll ever feel good again, or a part of something that feels good, because even if I was dangerously low, I know nothing would come of telling anyone. All that happens is that they become disturbed too, and then you have corrupted the last thing you had left, the 'ok' outside world. Your inner world becomes the outer, and you have nothing left.


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## Thomas Rymer (Jan 4, 2008)

Hmm, ironically, the more I DP/DR the less I care about people. They're just wooden puppets really.

Am I the only one that thinks that DPDR doesn't give you all this stuff about aring what other people think and them being perfect etc etc etc but rather just gives people who would probably think like that (which are most people 12-25 probably, especially females) a better reason to think like that. I mean, these aren't just zits or a bad hair day, it's DP/DR.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

I don't get exactly what you mean Thom, but I think you are right to draw a distinction between psychologically shitty habits and dp than blaming everything on depersonalisation as if it were the common denominator of all things bad.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

One other thing about University...
It touches who you are, who you feel you are or want to be on a DEEP level. Therefore the disturbance you are experiencing right now cannot be justified away with your long ramblings. It is happening. I know it is shit but there will be loads that you can learn from this experience about yourself and how you can live better. I think it is better to take responsibility from the ground up than blame everything on dp. Depersonalisation isn't the reason you have few friends. It's one of the problems you have alongside social issues. Sorry if I've totally misjudged but this is what I see going on.


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## Thomas Rymer (Jan 4, 2008)

Rozanne said:


> I don't get exactly what you mean Thom, but basically I think you are right to draw a distinction between psychological shitty habits and dp than blaming everything on depersonalisation as if it were the common denominator of all that is bad in the world.


Well you understood the most important part.

"And other students! They're the worst. From your DPed standpoint, they are whole, and perfect, strong and unaffected. You are weak, unable to cope, and want to have everything they do, but disallow you it. Some of them look good on the outside, but remain a mystery on the inside, and yet somehow you become stuck with them. The desire to be validated or find some validating niche or subculture is *so* hard when you're in Uni, you are completely overlooked, let alone if you have "dark issues" other students would be too perfect to understand. If you admire something, someone, somewhere, it seems out of reach because you feel like inhuman mist. You ideallise it. And when you're in it, you panic. Self esteem is looooow."

This does not really have to have anything to do with DP. Depression, perhaps, but not DP. There are plenty of people out there with very low self-esteem that to not have a disorder.

I myself have my own problems, but really the chances of people dying at my university from the bubonic plague are greater then me caring a whit about a "validating niche" or getting into a subculture at university. However I bet that many of the people who do feel it and have DP felt that way before as well.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

ash_is_sad said:


> Just to hear their voices, innocent and unaware of the fact that you look like you are still a part of their perfect world.


If you parents think the world is perfect maybe they need to get real as well. And why do you call your parents innocent. If they were so bloody innocent you would be telling them about what is going on because they wouldn't reject it.


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## rich (Apr 26, 2005)

Bit strong there Rozanne, give the guy a break. He is trying to say that the anxietyless world that his parents live in is perfect in comparison to the hell he goes through everyday - you don't need to take what he says so literally.....


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## ash_is_sad (Oct 27, 2007)

Guy? Last time I checked I was very much female.

Rozanne, I dont know what I've done to rattle your bones, but I stopped reading when I realised you were in a snarky mood. That's no help to me. Go, take a load off, and then you may be constructive. Otherwise, feel free not to reply.

P.s. I have produced countless positive threads offering advice or support, and the one I let my guard down for a few moments is the one you bite with. Come to think of that, it's really annoying. How pathetic. For me, DP used to be the full blown derealised hell. Now it's something less, but the remains of it are in the way I idealise other things leading to lack of social self esteem, the loneliness, and the projections of lovelessness/anxiety, of which are popular themes brought up on this site. I have written much stuff that you've related and discussed, so just because you can't here doesn't mean you have to ruthlessly undiagnose. Pure idiocy. Piss off.

Thomas, it has everything to do with how I suffer from DP. Alot of it, is the projection of others as whole, as compared to what I feel I am, not here. Infact, this low self esteem about the social world is what triggers me, generally. It's more subtle than the full-blown stuff I used to suffer from, but I've moving away from that, thank the stars. I used to struggle with feeling empathy for others, projecting my emptiness on them. Now I come across many undealt with social stuff in the transition stage, and it's hurtful, but rewarding to work on.

God this thread has pissed me off, how narrow-minded.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

I read your posts and listened. )Hugs if ok(


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Can really relate Ash (Must admit I assumed you were male too  ). About disturbing stuff - I did courses in which we learned about how Parasites chew up your insides, Ebola liquifies your organs and I even dissected a whole Greyhound :shock: So I can relate to what you are saying about disturbing course material 

I'm sure you know intellectually, but everyone has problems. I felt the same way too in Uni - "Oh, look at all these perfect students, not a care in the world. Its so easy for them, they don't have to deal with this shit!". But that's a lie - EVERYONE has problems, just different ones to you.

But its ok that you are feeling bad and needed to ride the self pity train for a while. We all do sometimes.

Feel better


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

IMHO anyone who suffers like you are doesn't have innocent parents.

I'm entitled to my opinion...sorry if it riles you.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

ash_is_sad said:


> Alot of it, is the projection of others as whole, as compared to what I feel I am, not here. Infact, this low self esteem about the social world is what triggers me, generally. It's more subtle than the full-blown stuff I used to suffer from, but I've moving away from that, thank the stars. I used to struggle with feeling empathy for others, projecting my emptiness on them. Now I come across many undealt with social stuff in the transition stage, and it's hurtful, but rewarding to work on.


I have suffered from chronic emptiness and I know that this sense of non-being isn't depersonalisation. There are people out there who are ungrounded who don't project emptiness onto others, who can still have relationships. You replied to my thread on narcissism, and I strongly relate to your problems, beyond the depersonalisation. It is the loneliness of not being loved and not feeling oneself to be a person which surpasses all other forms of loneliness; social triggers are a reminder of that. The greatest loneliness has got to be feeling you are so different from others you will never be normal/whole.

I don't know how your issues compare to mine, but I can say for myself that I have suffered so much, and done so many things that were hurtful to myself or others because of one thing: I was convinced i didn't exist and I didn't feel myself to exist. This was well before the derealisation. It was a general feeling, and it was also associated with massive discrepencies in object-continuity. I remember the first time the "world went grey" 5 years old, and from that moment I felt I had lost myself. I wasn't dissociated, wasn't "depressed" in the normal sense. There was an existential quality to the grey emptiness and it was _loss of essence_, and existential depression, where life was lack-lustre.

Now....my mother having developmental issues herself wasn't able to fulfill my emotional or physical needs. I became a compulsive giver at about the age of 4 and therefore was never a "classic narcissist" who didn't care about anyone. On the contrary, I have been a compulsive giver and attender of others all my life, albeit unskillfully. The difference is, and I know this sounds wrong, but I didn't fully feel myself or others to exist in the fullest expression of Self-fullness. My self-image compared with others was screwed. I knew others did exist and that they shared something, some un-named quality, with each other. But I didn't know what it was I was missing. All I knew was that I felt grey, flat, empty and interpreted myself as a non-being. This isn't the same as depersonalisation. Although there were elements of depersonalisation as well intermittently.

Thing is....I'm not against you Ash_Is_Sad. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think I have a good grasp of what your problems are. University was especially hard because it threw all of the social issues up, right into my face so I could no longer get by without addressing them. That means, I couldn't rely on my friends from back home who had always just accepted me as I was. The threat of being unwanted threw me into depersonalisation and I still say the unhappiest years of my life have been university although now I'm beginning to get help everything is falling into place. I find my course easy and socialising is also a lot less stressful.

The things which have helped me the most have been the Almaas page which is specifically for people with narcissistic injury - that is people who find it impossible to sustain a healthy sense of self in the face of criticism, and suffer from chronic emptiness, who tend to react to criticism with rage and the devaluation of others. The Power of Now also helps me understand essence a lot better and how to reduce the mental-ego (the inevitable consequence of lacking self).

The other thing which is crucial to beating this narcissistic thing is learning how to love and respect others and stop placing judgements on others which don't respect their internal experience. This, I find is the hardest thing to learn but anything is possible and with essence a lot of old habits, like wanting attention to feel like one exists, can be healed as well. So basically the root of recovering is finding the true self, to have insight into the judgements you make about others which are based on ego, that is that you are more important or your life is more unique/interesting. And recognising that the part of you that you feel is unacceptable or wrong isn't what is wrong. Actually it's only the absence of Essence and the development of ego which is hurtful to yourself and others. With love, no one expects you to be perfect, in any sphere. As you are human, and that is the truth....there is nothing wrong with being human, it's something we all suffer from.

Funny because now I have written this I see it really isn't such a big deal after all> internal lacking. Of course, I suffered for many years as a result of it - workplaces, authority, small-talk, and situations where my weaknesses were highlighted were triggers. But now I know it is possible to heal, it's not just a problem. It was the shame of being a non-entity that held me back from healing. The first time I told my therapist about the emptiness and how I felt unable to do homework or get books out of the library because I felt I was unworthy of anything and the company of anyone....a huge weight was lifted and I didn't feel so ashamed of being a wretch. The real issue is not feel lack-lustre, so much as creating an identity around that. _Then you have real issues._


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## present (Dec 6, 2007)

Hey Ash,
It sounds to me like you are dethawing. Coming out of this isn't all fun and games at first. Beleive me, a lot of people struggle at college. I was one of them. I can literally remember writing those same words in my journal that no one was on my "wavelength". But adjusting to school and new friends and new environments is a process and some of the emotions you are expressing are very normal. In fact it takes a lot of courage to go through what you are going through.
I think DP is a way of avoiding dealing with or avoiding these underlying issues. And maybe you are coming out of this state. Be prepared...you may even discover repressed emotions from long ago (they are not always bad either).
Hang in there. Remain open and authentic and you might be surprised. 
I hate to label it (especially since I really know so little about you) as individuation but it might be this and if you continue this, often times, painful process, you will discover insight and growth that will probably surprise you and that can actually help you to connect to people.
Anyway, maybe I am projecting my own process on you and I may not be totally comprehending your predicament, but I wish you luck on this journey at school. 
I can totally relate to feeling like everyone else is whole and you are not. It is a terrible "feeling"...because before this s-it "you" used to, at least be capable of empathy and love (and often times that is the only connection we can have). But hang in there...
Peace


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

In Hands of Light, the author wrote that individuation was the common theme in _all_ phases of life. Fact is that some parents facilitate the emerging self more than others. There are people who turn up at university less prepared emotionally than others. By less prepared I mean unable to co-orperate with others on equal terms, unable to communicate and find solutions to personal needs, unable to see reality as it is. It isn't a "crime" but no matter how much you have been damaged by life there is no "excuse" for perpetuating it. It doesn't really bother me that you think I'm narrowminded Ash, but at the end of the day, I've probably experienced the same degree of loneliness that you are writing about on here and I now know for SURE that not knowing who I was - in a pathological way not just growing pains - was at the core of that.

Rather than lash out at me...ok I admit I was out of order to write what I did but I was genuinely irritated ....can you not see that from the outside, the way you idealise things, turning your life into a Hollywood movie....is quite silly.

Sorry to be a bitch...I think I can just about preserve a healthy self-esteem in the face of that. I see a lot of myself in you for a start and I know it isn't necessary to live in such a cut of world.... I'm not "just another whole person" ok....I have my reasons to write to you.

One thing this thread deeply reminds me of is: Truth holds no favorites. That means that at some point you are gonna have to question both yourself and your parents and the way you live. I believe you are a very false person but don't yet realise this. The only clues you have to show you something isn't quite right is the way you feel, and the way you see yourself in relation to others.

I've been there...still am in many ways. But I know that I have to fight that, irrespective of how much I get hurt in the process. Nothing gets protected.

..the other thing is that I don't want you to think this is a "good girl/badgirl" situation (whichever way it people see it)...

I'm telling you what I think cos this is a public forum and you put your problems on here for others to look at and comment on. And it seems to me that the loneliness and empiness you have more than a little correlates with what I have experienced. Projecting emptiness onto others: it is very hard not to when you are completely cut off from yourself. And being triggered by social rejection: understandable if you don't have a fully developed sense of *self*. I don't look at the words "chronic emptiness" in disdain. As far as I'm concerned it's a worse illness than depersonalisation is in some ways and one which few people really know the depths of because you have got to have been pretty deprived/ignored to experience it in its full manifestation.

There is a difference between chronic emptiness and depersonalisation. One of them is confusing...the other is just flat. One of them, you can blame for fucking your mind up...the other completely eats away at you while the rest of the world is enjoying life....one of them gives you an excuse to take a bit of time off of work. Chronic emptiness interferes up your ability to enjoy anything, to have relationships, to accomplish and finish things...to get out of bed in the morning. _No one_ can see it AND no one, who has a half developed personality, can understand it. All they know is that they feel they can't relate to ya, or feel uncomfortable in your company. So I think narcissistic/chronic emptiness is far worse in certain ways (socially and ocupationally)....and has got to be addressed.

...otherwise everyone is either idealised/devalued depending on how they fit in with your desperate need to find yourself. And that can't be right. Really that is the worst thing of all. To think one hasn't the control to be around people without unconsciously destroying them....I am ashamed of my past that is for sure.


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## present (Dec 6, 2007)

Wow Rozanne,
At first when I started reading your post, I was like "what a bitch", but as I kept on reading I kind of found myself seeing your perspective.
On one hand I want to say show a little more compassion for the girl rather than rip on her for not having a fully developed sense of self, but on the other hand, it is often times, these people who are overly judgemental or do not take responsibility for themselves or see their problems with say social interaction as something they need to look at for themselves. So, at least, I think I can understand a little.
I also think that on these forums it is extremly difficult to analyze someone elses state and problems and give opinions as words are missing some sort of experiential understanding.
I also think that you might be assuming that what Ash is going through is similar to what you are going through or went through and you might be projecting a lot of frustration onto her. I dont really know though.
So, would love to here your comments.
I also think your comparison to emptiness and DP is right on.


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## ash_is_sad (Oct 27, 2007)

Rozanne, I respect your insights, but just as you can sense and grow agitated at a loss of self in me, I relate to/and grow agitated with your arrogance.

Please don't forget I have been studying similar stuff for years too, and this is a snap judgement you made of me; invalidating my personal choice to let the guard down for a single post. Sometimes a bit of wallowing and justifying feels good, it can be the first step towards accepting pain as compared to sparking on the 'anxiety' trigger when it raises it's head.

I like your theories of narcissism, and some do apply (I have studied this before), but Jung's shadow/ego theories seem more apt to my personal situation (albeit much of it is the same thing); in which I project certain 'hooks' or negative emotional compulsions that act solely in the mind, ensuring that I fixate 'less' on emotional substance and more upon my souless blueprint of existance, in my theories, thoughts, preparations and fears.

This is similar to a narcisstic reaction, but not quite the same; for example overreacting when someone has caused you to re-focus on a part of yourself that you do not enjoy, dispel or refuse to accept. This isn't working on yourself, it's coping.
You have just provided a fine example of this behaviour. Don't confuse ego shadow behaviour (which I'm sure you know about) as narcissism, it just isn't the same thing. As for your assumption about my 'falseness' I couldn't be if I tried. Genuinity is a sole function in keeping me rooted to my ideallised 'anxiety-free' world. You really don't know anything about my experience, or what has brought me here, or why. P.s. Depersonalisation is always a symptom of something. I have suffered it on and off for many years, and yet talking about triggers, habits and bad emotional ruts is more helpful than the fog itself. We know why that's there, it's the brain's last resort, it's an unhealthy coping mechanism, not a trait someone should have to harbour throughout the rest of their lives.

Now, I've heard you out, so please go elsewhere.


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## present (Dec 6, 2007)

Ok...don't know why I keep coming to this thread and commenting but I find it of some relation to me.
Ash...I am sorry I judged you wrongly in my last post. I should have stuck to my guns and just heard you out or asked questions to get a better idea of what you are going through.
"Sometimes a bit of wallowing and justifying feels good, it can be the first step towards accepting pain as compared to sparking on the 'anxiety' trigger when it raises it's head."
I can't get over this insight. Well said. If you need to wallow or whatever while you gothrough this I think it would be my priveledge to listen.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

My money is on Ash.


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## ash_is_sad (Oct 27, 2007)

Rozanne, doesn't Almaas also teach about empathy?
I found that very useful.

...blah blah extract that may show up friend


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

ash_is_sad said:


> Rozanne, doesn't Almaas also teach about empathy?
> I found that very useful.


Look...I am sorry if I've humilated you in any way. That wasn't what I meant to do and I am genuinely sorry if that's how it seemed. I'm in the same boat, I just haven't met such a reflection of myself before...what uni are you at by the way? I'm Sheffield.

Empathy is the only thing worth bothering with in this life, but it's also one of the greatest evils.


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2008)

Hey Rozanne... if Ash is your reflection, and you "humilated" her... doens't that mean you just "humilated yourself"? Besides, Ash isn't like you... you're just the worse of Ash.

*Rubs hands together*... Well that's my bitchin done for the week.

)))Gives me ex a warm cuddle(((... Bless ya sweety


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## ash_is_sad (Oct 27, 2007)

I wasn't really humiliated at all, it's just a clash of stuff. Happens everywhere, all the time. I kinda knew what I had put myself in for with the thread. This isn't the sort of stuff that makes me anxious, really.

Im very close to Sheffield, and I have alot of friends there  Emulated_Puppeter, please stop playing kick the cat; what use is that?

When we detach from what we admire - do you see that as narcisstic? This is interesting to me because I see alot of pride in you.
Narcissism -> Pride -> Rejecting/growing annoyed all that doesn't validate pride

This can cause a shadow issue - growing angry at something you repress or relate to, and don't want to, i.e. me.

To me, this may involve things I admire (like what I started this thread about, for example) - I idealise, or reject them; all to protect my pride, it's all push/pull.

A club/event of music/poetry I admire and enjoy -> thinking only very 'cool' students go there (judgement of image) -> feeling lost and depersonalised, racked with worst cases

- So, when you said Depersonlisation didn't tie in with narcissism, you were wrong. At least in my case. I've tried to say it many times before.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

> Narcissism -> Pride -> Rejecting/growing annoyed all that doesn't validate pride


Personally I find writing about these issues itself a good way of dealing with ego. That is, I should not longer protect my self-image over whether I have issues or not.

As it says in the Almaas literature. NPD is only a distortion of the norm. It is not different in its nature to the norm. Only greater in its destruction. It is like the difference between being an occasionally drinker and having a substance abuse problem. Ok, it is shameful, but to continue to hide it is far worse in the long run. What hurts is that people, on knowing I have suffered from this emptiness, may not wish to know me. That is something I have to live with. I hope that it is possible to redeem myself because I know that my true self wants to live alongside others, and not as a separate entity. There are moments where that is acheived. And many where it is not. But I can tell you - Darren's comments don't rile me at all. He, like others, knew for a long time that they could easily manipulate me through rejection and issues of self-image. That is another problem with being insecure - others can have a great hold on you mentally. But in the end, it teaches me that I don't need anyone, including people on this board, to think I am any different than what I am. If what they see is accurate to who I am, that is, that I have written from ego or what have you, then at least things are honest.

If people make projections there has to be a "latch" for that projection to go onto. That is, by virtue of being projected onto, that doesn't make one an innocent entity. It just means that your bad points were singled out. In any case, what I reject the most about you is that glamourise your life, and idealise your parents. Searching my own life, I know that I have made a "story" of things. That was extremely tempting very eary on. It was a case of facing deprivation or making a story out of it. I chose the latter. I think it effected my sense of self-worth to live in poverty. And I chose to glamorise the issue by saying "look at me, a philosopher and composer who grew up on a council estate"....well, for sure there are lots of talents in my family: art, intellect, music etc. But growing up on a council estate and not being loved...doesn't make that all "valuable". It just shows that even in places of poverty, there can be comfort in the form of intellect.

As for idealising parents...this is interesting. I don't know about your life and what your parents are like. I haven't idealised my mother since I was a child. But I do idealise my dad quite a bit....seeing him as an innocent victim of circumstance. In other ways I am quite "precious" about my mum. Not in creating a positive ego projection on her, but an inverted ego. And this is where mutual shadow rejection gets nasty. The truth is that mum is a victim of her ego also. So I don't write on here to continue this ego game...believe me. But if there is ego...well it isn't all that surprising is it? Even if I am in a place of ego, my aim is to find the true self. I know those may only appear as words on the page, but from my limited experience, ego issues are not just words. They are experiences...feelings of integration and connection versus feelings of disintegration and worthlessness....

Whatever my reason for writing to you, I have found times during this dialogue where fresh ego issues have come to the fore. One such instance is trying to find ego in "truth speaking"> that's a silly one if ever there was one!


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2008)

ash_is_sad said:


> Emulated_Puppeter, please stop playing kick the cat; what use is that?


More use then you have assumed... you two are becoming closer. I saw your post before you editted it... you "thought" about it... so it was on your mind.

Enjoy.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

ash_is_sad said:


> I like your theories of narcissism, and some do apply (I have studied this before), but Jung's shadow/ego theories seem more apt to my personal situation (albeit much of it is the same thing);


If you emptiness - that you said you were projecting - is depersonalised emptiness or from a narcissistic injury, it is still a bad habit. Getting over that is really hard - I'm trying to get over that, but I'm going down the emotional route of just finding essence than trying to figure out exactly what is going on in my head...as it is a minefield.



> in which I project certain 'hooks' or negative emotional compulsions that act solely in the mind, ensuring that I fixate 'less' on emotional substance and more upon my souless blueprint of existance, in my theories, thoughts, preparations and fears.


I have wondered sometimes if the emptiness of narcissistic injury - talking about myself here - is an emptiness which is perpetuated through thoughts and actions and would actually go away if it was just accepted. So that it isn't an "injury" in the normal sense, but one created through these obsessive negative thoughts. Then again, shadow projection....is said to happen on a very subtle level, usually unconsciously, and those energy exchanges that constitute shadow projections are also more or less unconcious. According to that theory, I don't really know what I am projecting onto you and what is true. But, whether your emptiness is a hole in your core identity or a transient hole in your sensory experience (depersonalisation) who knows? Those things are related. But in my experience they are different. I was embodied for years with mild derealisation at night. That's pretty much been the story of my life. It wasn't a problem though, and it was only when I came to uni that the derealisation took over, and became a chronic problem...where I couldn't accept my body at all. Social pressures and social issues - like whether I should pursue my own genuine interests, or attempt to follow the herd - made this much worse. Until it turned into a hellish experience....which I am still recovering from to be quite honest. University itself is neutral. Like Thomas said...if he was at uni he wouldn't give a hoot how people judged him.

I feel that most people go with the herd quite easily because they don't feel continually injured by that....with myself, my true identity was so obscured that to do what everone else was doing would have effected my sense of self in a confusing way..I found it easier to have no friends that continue to confront the identity crisies. I was also just genuinely hurt by the destruction that went on at university, as if I am just too sensitive for that kind of environment to start with.

All of these things, over time, contribute to feeling one is "different", and more often than not being told that one is different. And so my narcissism/arrogance whatever you feel it is, doesn't only come from the rejection of my mum but also the persistant rejection from the environment. Especially in the case of people at university who wished to protect their rights to destroy communual areas and single me out as a scapegoat. The scapegoating continues on as a theme. Presumably, when you have problems like this, people think it is ok to make an example of you because it is so obviously alienated from reality. And that's one other thing I learned from replying to your post: from the outside, the separation is interpreted as arrogance. From the inside, it is experienced as loss, perpetual loss.....That means that the hole never repairs. Unless one is "annihilated with love" at some point, if you are lucky enough for someone to give a shit about ya. But not many people - truely - are able to love the empty person. Ironically, it is probably because the empty person is the personification of the empty holes of normal people. And to preserve happiness, the empty person is a convenient shadow projection hook...someone so obviously out of touch with reality that there is no doubt that they are the problem around here. So finding people who know how to love is hard, I think. And I cried bit in my bed this morning about that because it has depressed me for many years, the constant rejection. Not of my true self, but of the ego which is more forthcoming to others eyes. I know that I sound l like I am self-pitying. Thing is that underneath, there is genuine sadness. And that is more pertinent when one isn't covering it up with an exaggerated story about what is happening. The pain and emptiness is real. It may be the only thing which is real for a time, until the love that heals it is the new reality.


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2008)

> And I cried bit in my bed this morning


)))Warm Cuddles(((


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## ash_is_sad (Oct 27, 2007)

Did you two used to date?

Whack.

Rozanne, I understand what you're saying. It's hard to reply, because your ramblings are just echoing my thoughts, so I have nothing to meet them with, but interested and cathartic empathy.

Life is what it is, I guess. Sometimes, I find it much easier to simply accept it, as I see it, rather than get anxious or upset about it, and it feels like the whole world has been taken off my shoulders. If you've experienced pain as a kid, I think somewhere along the line something in you jumps up and takes over how you see life, to ensure that your pain threshhold isn't challenged again. This is what my ego feels like. Dropping the reigns feels like death. But infact, it's peace. If you try so hard to create something, you have to work with nothing. Staring nothing in the face, and assuming it's who you are, is terrifying.

That is such a huge part of my anxiety. As for my parents, I'll explain over a hot chocolate. And, in terms of me dramatising my life, you are very right - I used to lie alot as a kid. I'll steal people's pain, exaggerate and milk people's empathy and support. I try so hard to not do this. But it's because it can make you feel whole for a second, that sort of tugging. It's like, your emotions come together. You can release them in the presence of another.

I have to stop this. This morning, this made me cry. I don't know if I see rejection everywhere, as you do; rather, millions of complex ego's trying to get along. Sometimes I don't really think that there's such thing as rejection, just misunderstanding. Rejection is always fuelled by something ego-based, which is transient. Also, I think I used to feel unloveable in a sense that 'what if people find out...' but the more I get to know my friends, the more I realise that the guilt of a few intrusive thoughts really aint that bad..phew.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Yeah. I'm sorry I ramble. I've been turning stuff over in my head all of my life and it's like I've covered so much ground in that pointless search. I can write in such a way as to not allow any real dissent..anyone who wants to speak from the POV of an observer to life is gonna come up with some home truths about the personal/collective shadow whoever they are and what they do. A lot of life is "just obvious". Again, reading about others' conclusions and the dynamics of psychology/abuse/neglect etc...reminds me not to cling onto those high/mighty elevated thoughts as if I was the first person in the world to be deprived or denied the right to be myself, to live in harmony with the earth and other people. Others have been denied those rights as well, I just don't know those people's pain or redemption. If only one was able to see into the past and across continents, and perceive the true inner lives of other people instead of questioning if anyone else has really suffered as much as oneself.

I look forward to meeting you. Something worryingly feels like you are gonna be my twin sister separated at birth, but maybe that's another form of co-narcissism!!!


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

present said:


> I think DP is a way of avoiding dealing with or avoiding these underlying issues. And maybe you are coming out of this state. Be prepared...you may even discover repressed emotions from long ago (they are not always bad either).


Yeah, if the life you want to reinhabit is a hostile place, what reason is there to come back? I agree the answer is to do the best on the psychological side, along with other important things like gardening, animals, career, family, social issues and enjoyments.


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## present (Dec 6, 2007)

I didn't say that coming back is a hostile place although I am not minimizing what it may feel like for you.
It is a painful place...you may even feel like you cannot handle it...but that is the challenge...finding the strength to handle the hell you may have to go through. Having something to look forward to is also helpful and useful. Perhaps having someone to listen to and support you is also necessary. I don't know. Whatever works for you.
I have to say that in reading these posts from you guys I am seeing a tendency to overintellectualize what you are going through.
And I have to wonder if, in addition to DP, that this intellectualization is some kind of defense as well.
One of you wrote something to the effect that rejection doesn't exist or is transient or is ego based. Well, from my experience, rejection does exist. You can learn a lot about yourself from rejection. You can learn a lot about life too. Sure, it sucks at first, but it is a part of life. Is is ego based? I guess. Frankly I don't even know what that means...I have to admit a lot of what you guys are saying sounds sort of esoteric.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Hello, 
It was Ash who said that she felt there were many egos that couldn't get along and that disturbed her but that she wasn't afraid of rejection like I am.

As for the word ego, it isn't an intellectualisation, IMHO. My psychotherapist didn't like it when I mentioned the word ego, ironically. But ego is the only concept which deals with the issue of false self and true self sufficiently I feel.

People who meditate and have psychological breakthroughs that change their lives identify something they call the "true self" or the "unborn self" and that is the part which is able to love without judgement, and also accept. It is worth questioning things to ascertian if they are real or mumbo jumbo. But in my experience, there have been times when something new emerged and I realised that I did care about what was going on at a deep more compassionate level, when my normal mode of being wasn't like that.

Mysticism is very important to me generally I call myself a "Quaker" although I'm not a full member, the path resonates with my feelings and gives me somewhere where meaningful stuff can be talked about, hopefully increased in life (through peace simplicity equality integrity) . People talk a lot about wanting to change the world at Quakers. Maybe the original message of Quakerism has been lost. Quakers is meant to be about finding the light within and respecting that "inner Christ" in others.

I can see from writing this that compared with 5 years ago, I have lost heart. At that time, things were hard but I wasn't yet completely disillusioned. Now, I have seen to much to be able to think idealistically about the way people act. By that, I mean I've seen more of my own faults, and others and how it fits in with the bigger picture. It's obvious there is a lot of injustice and greed in the world at large.


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## present (Dec 6, 2007)

Hi,
I read somewhere on one of these discussions that this guy with DP was explaining how he had become more cynical. I can fully relate. Cynicism is often times a defense and so that is what popped up with me along with the disociating and numbness. I know that it is not real though and that it is actually a defense and that makes it difficult for me to go on. 
Your last paragraph sounds a little "cynical" or at least disconnected. Yes the world is full of greed and injustice, but it is also full of warm, powerful, "mystical" (to use your term) experiences where the person or people can find meaning in what is sometimes a chaotic universe.
I think disillusionment is a great thing...it can actually lead to finding that "true self" you speak of. I am not sure though if we are talking about the same thing though. Sometimes people are dissilusioned, but not in touch with the other side of the opportunity this creates for creating ones own reality and finding their truth. (perhaps I am sounding a little esoteric here!)
I don't think you have to meditate either (maybe that works for some). I think being in a relationship with someone who is genuinely nonjudgemental (and I emphasize the word genuine) can be a great influence and example of how to live ones life. This is very powerful if you are working with a truely good therapsit or any person in your life. Anyway, acceptance is a truly difficult thing to engage with, but the more we do it we begin to not only accept others but perhaps more importantly ourselves. And these faults that you speak of are actually beautiful parts of ourselves along with the other positives that make us human and connect us with others unlike this DP state.
Alright...goodnight.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Thankyou Presen(ce) hehe

Look, I just want to say I do suffer from feelings of embarassment, shame, doubt, regret etc. Even just from writing on threads like this. It isn't a feeling in the normal intense sense of the word, but it is there. And I know that this thread has been messy. I normally try to restrain myself from pointing out peoples' negative character traits...but your case Ash, I couldn't let it pass cos it is too close to my own experience.

When we meet, of course there will be two different people with different ideas/feelings/problems. But I hope there is also some common ground because I truely do want to get over my insecurity issues and stop doing things like hurting myself in order to try to fill the holes...perhaps there are things we can solve together?

Like in the Almaas thing...I am literally without a shell. It's apparent even from hearing my voice. The shell, the body, the more "focussed" and intense human emotions which have their place in the context of separation...just aren't there. And that isn't enlightenment but merely being out of touch. I can't go on living like this because it effects how I feel around people. I don't have a skin. I can't take even the smallest rejection without it resonating throughout my whole self-sense. And it isn't how I want to live. I'm not completely dissillusioned about finding acceptance/love. I am a bit disillusioned about ever being understood/respected. But I'm on the healing path now and in the future, I hope those things won't bother me as much.

Much love
R


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## ash_is_sad (Oct 27, 2007)

Good call, Present. For me, cynicism and nihilism goes hand in hand with anxiety. If you're detached from the world, it's easy to feel like it's pointless.

Rozanne, there will be common ground, but I'm not sure it will be as healing as you like, I've been in this situation before. It can also be painful to meet someone who embodies your stuff, not necessarily rescue-like. I have met a few people that 'understood' my stuff either on a forum (or a result of) or face to face and it's nice to know that you will find your pain in other's lives to have it validated but inevitably, that's that I guess. Sometimes I think falling in love is inevitably just finding someone that brings out and shows you your inner most deepest feelings, thoughts, reliefs and joys. Stuff you aren't aware of, because you just get on with it, day to day - present and only aware of what needs to be done, or when DP'ed, nothing at all. So realistically, if you share fears with someone, they may just bring out those fears.

The first time this happened to me (meeting someone from a forum or a second meeting of someone similiar), I was very exited, and looking back in did help in a subconcious way and also to have a friend by. I may not make it easier but you can be sure I'll buy you a hot chocolate and give you a hug! P.s. how will I recognise you? Will you perform the funky monkey as the train lands?

..Kidding.


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## ash_is_sad (Oct 27, 2007)

P.s. if you want to call before we meet, just to try waters, feel free.
Sending peace. xXx


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Rozanne said:


> If only one was able to see into the past and across continents, and perceive the true inner lives of other people instead of questioning if anyone else has really suffered as much as oneself.


You can do that.

There's something I learned about called "The Big Sadness". It means connecting to the emotion of sadness on a global level. This can be done with all emotions apparently, though I haven't really tried/been able to - probably because I'm too involved in my own stuff. But the idea is that if you do that and connect to the BIG emotion, it puts your own stuff into perspective.

Also, this may be stating the obvious, but whatever someone else says about you won't be offensive unless you have an issue with it yourself. Something to keep in mind though it seems Rozanne's comment sparked some good discussion between you two (Ash and Rozanne).


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## ash_is_sad (Oct 27, 2007)

Lol, no. What about fear of bad judgement?
There's an issue in itself. If someone called me a clown-eating nazi I still would want to turn them upside-down for approval.

I don't really have any concerns about being a clown-eating nazi.

The one thing I notice about this site is that everyone seems to be a 100% self proclaimed bomb of certaincy. This is anxiety. Do you see?


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

CECIL said:


> Rozanne said:
> 
> 
> > If only one was able to see into the past and across continents, and perceive the true inner lives of other people instead of questioning if anyone else has really suffered as much as oneself.
> ...


I wonder if I have done this accidentally but didn't realise the pain I was tapping into was not mine. I have tapped into a state where sadness was the whole universe. It's happened at least three times in my life...and when it does I'll cry and cry for hours on end until there is nothing left to wish/want for. Sadness was the predominant feeling of my childhood. It is something I tap into now and again. I have only ever seen one other person who appeared to embody sadness almost as their personality, and it was one of the few times i was able to really feel as if someone was worse off than me, in the day to day, "life in a developed country" sort of way of things....the worst thing is to feel ones' sadness is greater than others because that is alienating. Sadness ain't a personality. It can be a deep life experience, a very deep imprint of loss. And I know that those feelings are justified in the case of parental abandonment....actually university was one of the other experiences which retriggered that initial loss. And that pain was more personal than the "Big sadness". It was great but it wasn't as universal as those other times where sadness appeared to be the only thing in the world, the only thing that truely existed....as if it were the fabric of the universe itself. It's one of the problems with having faulty/undeveloped ego boundaries. These experiences become like what Winnicott describes as "primitive anxieties". That is, the emotion is experienced as the universe itself. I have also once felt terror in that way too, and that was pretty scary.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Someone somewhere is a Nazi. And arbitrary insults like that can have a grain of truth in the personal self as well.

What I mean by this, Ash, is that it really doesn't matter if you personally are a Nazi or not. Perhaps you are not distantly related to Hitler....who knows.

Haha. I'm only teasing ya. Maybe I'm related to Hilter but I didn't know it. I definately have Jewish blood that's for sure and I probably had relatives killed in the second world war in concentration camps. And there is quite a lot of psychopathy in my family as well...so I may as well just admit it right out....who is responsible for all these wars......someone has to be. Someone's got to be related to the paedophile and the Nazi. Otherwise it wouldn't be a human family. At some point I need to deal with the weight of the family karma because there isn't a day in my life when I'm not limited by it.

I don't mean to put a massive downer on this thread, but I have to say, I believe it is the idealisation of the ancestoral roots and authority that allows many great autrocities to happen. So protecting one's parents from their own egos, in the long run, is a bad idea. There is evil in my family. I know because I was the victim of it! And I know there is evil in me...I know cos i perpetuated it. It isn't like I'm singling anyone's parents out as bad, more or less just saying: why do you idealise anyone. Look at the world and the state it is in. Peoples' parents had a hand in the state of the world. And yet everyone idealises their parents.


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## ash_is_sad (Oct 27, 2007)

I think there is everything in everyone.
It's just choices, and events.

We all have the hand to do something bad or good. Thats just life. I was just joking around with the nazi comment, a bit of dry humour, thats my thang.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

...i know I'm not completely autistic  I just thought it was a good way of teasing ya. That maybe somewhere deep in your psychology that you were actually a clown eating Nazi.... Or maybe that is me? Come to think of it...


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## ash_is_sad (Oct 27, 2007)

lol sorry Roz.
Yay sat!


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Yay!


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

ash_is_sad said:


> Lol, no. What about fear of bad judgement?
> There's an issue in itself. If someone called me a clown-eating nazi I still would want to turn them upside-down for approval.
> 
> I don't really have any concerns about being a clown-eating nazi.


In that case the issue within yourself is an issue related to approval of others, which it seems you are aware of. Therefore, if you could heal that issue, you wouldn't care if someone called you a Clown-Eating Nazi. That was my point.

It sounds like you are pretty into Jung, so you understand about the Shadow and Denial. Basically my point was that anything that triggers an emotional response in you points to a part of your Shadow and the elicited emotion is a kind of a defence mechanism in itself.

Nevermind, I guess the dead horse has been whipped enough. Enjoy your meeting 



> The one thing I notice about this site is that everyone seems to be a 100% self proclaimed bomb of certaincy. This is anxiety. Do you see?


I'm sorry if I come across that way, its not my intention. Whatever I say is my opinion only and you can feel free to disagree (Many people do in fact and that's fine). I am still learning just like everyone else here. It is true, however that I still have anxiety issues so you are correct on that point.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Rozanne said:


> Sadness was the predominant feeling of my childhood. It is something I tap into now and again. I have only ever seen one other person who appeared to embody sadness almost as their personality, and it was one of the few times i was able to really feel as if someone was worse off than me, in the day to day, "life in a developed country" sort of way of things....the worst thing is to feel ones' sadness is greater than others because that is alienating. Sadness ain't a personality. It can be a deep life experience, a very deep imprint of loss.


Another idea I've come across is that every person has a primary emotion, be it sadness, joy, anger or fear. That core emotion is based on an initial event (The technical term escapes me at the moment, lol) in the person's life upon which the rest of their energetic makeup is built.

There was an excercise I learned, which I've only tried a few times but got some ok results. You look at a person and you feel their primary emotion. Then, you hold that emotion within yourself, like a mirror or sounding board. You get your own energy to resonate with that person's energy. After that, you "flip" the energy you are holding to its polar opposite (Fear <-> Anger, Joy <-> Sadness) and you will 'see' that initial experience that caused their energy to be dominated by one emotion. You can also do this with yourself. My primary emotion is Sadness, though I haven't been able to 'see' my own initial event yet.

It requires a lot of fluidity in your own energy and clarity too, which is why I haven't been too successful with it, but its interesting.

By the way, Sadness is a fairly common primary emotion based on what I've seen. I'd say Anger is probably more common though, followed closely by fear. Its probably just me, but Joy seems to be the least common


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Hi Cecil, 
You know Joy is a facet of spirit therefore it cannot be considered an emotion in quite the same way as you highlight others here, which I would say were "corruptions" not in the sense that they are wrong, but that they distort the whole energy system into its fold so the person loses autonomy. Without the blockages of various attachments, everyone could experience joy, save perhaps someone in excrutiating pain...but even that is just a guess.

I know of at least one person who experiences constant joy, quite naturally, presumably he was loves and appreciated and encouraged. Being loved also helps you to be more healthy as you're less stressed. So he has excellent health as well.

Anyone who is bogged down with any block/illness will experience drossiness....it's funny how after I took a break from my medical studies, I would pop into people occasionally in the street and a lot of them were exhausted looking, heads down, grey anxious faces....not all, but quite a few. I assumed that these emotions were the result of the karma that one picks up on hospital wards unless you have full Essence and do not pick up karma/pain as you go. I know that I was not ready karmically to do such a job that involves that responsibility and pain. But what surprised me is that even people who are "middle-class" happy types can and do get bogged down under the right circumstances.

I've heard of a primary "sin". So for instance, greed, avarice, gluttony etc. But I haven't heard of the emotions thing.

My mum's primary emotion is fear. My sister's primary emotion is anger, often repressed. My other sister is quite free from emotional dross, but when she is effected, it'll probably be lethargy.

My own is definately loneliness...and it was from that that the sadness came. The loneliness meant the world looked grey. So I didn't necessarily feel ill/depressed in my body...just spiritually empty and cut off. And I stayed like that for many years until the dissociation. Then I had all kinds of problems but I didn't feel as lonely, as I was cut off from a lot of my past pain. The other primary emotions I feel in relation to loneliness is shame/insufficiency. Looking back, the loneliness/lack has made things a lot harder for me. If I were able to get over the loneliness I feel I could acheive more, and do more things. It makes meeting people hard because of the attachment/re-traumatisation of being rejected.


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