# im evolving



## sleepingbeauty

thats the only word i can find for it right now. its fucking terrifying and exilarating and freaking me out but i cant stop it now. i just hope my friends and family will understand the changes im going through.

its just my time to evolve.

ive been feeling this pull for my entire life but out of fear of it, and what people will think, ive kept it mostly hidden from the outside world. unfortunately, or fortunately, i couldnt keep it completely under control, and it would seriously fuck up the image that i tried so hard to maintain.

i saw it only as a bad thing.

i was told by everyone and doctors that it was a bad thing. even though they could never pin down what 'IT' was. bad to the point that i gave myself away to the pharmeceuticle industry. to protect myself from MYSELF. but none of the dozens of diffrent kinds of pills they threw at me made one damn difference. it only left me with permenant unwelcome side effects.

obviously you shouldnt fuck with what isnt broken.

the only thing that needed fixing was my perception of the world around me. only by educating myself, giving myself permission to take the time to HEAL, have i come to understand the nature of this mysterious 'pull'. and once you have 'understanding' you lose all fear. fear in itself, is only lack of understanding. once understood, the fear is gone and you can simply let go. and where ever this pull takes you, is where you need to be.

ive been running from it my whole life and following willow wisps in the mud and the cold only to end up dissapointed and even further away from my true destination. now that i know that its possible to take flight and still have my roots firmly in the ground, im ready to take that next step. ive let my loved ones hold me back up till now. i cant do that anymore. ive reached critical mass. the hope is that it doesnt mean leaving them behind, leaving my life behind. at this point i dont know. its hard to tell these things when you start to excellerate at speeds youve never experienced. all i know right now, is that its going to happen. and im more then ready. i was born ready.










ps...
(this is a total life evolution, not simply a spiritual one, but this section will have to do)

pss...
if you want to know what tools im using to guide me toward this new state of being, im very happy to share. just let me know.


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## Guest

What does it feel like? Is it something you're only barely aware of? Or a full on unmistakeable feeling?


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## sleepingbeauty

well, let me put it this way...

its a feeling/experience even the hardest of cynics could appreciate. :wink:

in fact, you dont really need an open mind. what im experiencing is the most profound realization anyone could experience in their time on this plane, yet 100% logical. ill be posting more on this later, because im only just starting to understand and digest all of it.


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## Guest

Keep us updated


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## Scattered

Don't be angry at me. I'm not trying to be a c0ck. I think you're getting too far ahead of yourself. I think you're mistaking distorted perception and mental illness for evolution. So unless you can say to me that you've gotten over DP/DR, obsessions, depression, anxiety, and any other possible problems you may or may not have had, I don't think you really are ready to say that you're "evolving". Furthermore, its not as if complete and drastic evolution of humans can happen within a lifetime or several generations. It takes hundreds of thousands of years.


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## falling_free

.


> Furthermore, its not as if complete and drastic evolution of humans can happen within a lifetime or several generations. It takes hundreds of thousands of years.


The great secret known to Apollonius of Tyana, Paul of Tatsus, Simon Magus, 
Asklepios, Paracelsus, Boehme and Bruno is that: we are moving backward in 
time. The universe in fact is contracting into a unitary entity which is completing 
itself. Decay and disorder are seen in reverse, as increasing. These healers 
learned to move forward in time, which is retrograde to us. Comment Eleven

omega point?

Omega point is a term used by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin to describe the ultimate maximum level of complexity-consciousness, considered by him the aim towards which consciousness evolves. Rather than divinity being found "in the heavens" he held that evolution was a process converging toward a "final unity", identical with the Eschaton with God. According to Chardin and the Russian scholar and biologist Vladimir Vernadsky (The Geosphere 1924 and The Biosphere 1926), the planet is in a transformative process, metamorphosing from the biosphere into the noosphere.

This term is also used by Tulane University professor of mathematics and physics Frank J. Tipler to describe a hypothetical cosmological scenario in the far future of the Universe. According to the omega point theory, as the Universe comes to an end in a specific kind of Big Crunch, the computational capacity of the Universe is capable of increasing at a sufficient rate that this computation rate is accelerating exponentially faster than time runs out. In principle, a simulation run on this Universe-computer can thus continue forever in its own terms, even though the external Universe lasts only a finite time. This theory assumes that certain cosmological variables prove that the universe will eventually contract, and that there will be intelligent civilizations in existence at the appropriate time to exploit the computational capacity of such an environment.

Tipler identifies this asymptotic state of infinite information capacity with God. The implication of this theory for present-day humans is that this ultimate cosmic computer will essentially be able to resurrect everyone who has ever lived, by recreating all possible quantum brain states within the master simulation. This would manifest as a simulated reality, except without the necessity for physical bodies in "reality". From the perspective of the inhabitant, the Omega Point represents an infinite-duration afterlife, which could take any imaginable form due to its virtual nature


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## sleepingbeauty

dont worry mrmole. i will keep everyone updated.

scattered. i dont think youre a c*ck. cause i really like c*cks. 

trust me lover, like a said above, even the harshest of cynics can appreciate this. unfortunately, not EVERYONE will be able to relate to it. just like your experience of your 'disorders' are different from mine.

lol. just like a cynic to jump to conclusions without even the slightest notion of whats in front of you. i havent given you all the information that would be required to come up with this type of conclusion. give it time scattered. you too will find the answers that you seek. :wink:


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## sleepingbeauty

chris puts it much better then i could with my puny logic.  but he is on the right track of what im learning about. its all about the mathematics of the universe. scattered assumes that my 'hoodoo voodoo' is coming out of nothingness (well, actually if you want to get technical, it is, but ill get to that another time) when actually the hoodoo voodoo scattered thinks im peddling is scientific in its explination. like i said im still learning it. give me a f*ckin chance for godsakes before you piss on it. :wink:


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## signalroom

sleepingbeauty I loved hearing your expression, something so hard to put into words

I understand, it's happening to me too.

there is no fear of mental illness in this,
mentall illness IS fear.

It's an incredible process, no doubt about it.
"DP" loses it's old clothes, and the "me" we thought
was non-existent forever begins to emerge.

has nothing to do with new age, saintliness, godliness, or toughy-feeliness. Who we've always been is REAL and begins to flower.

thank you for sharing, I'd welcome to hear more.


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## sleepingbeauty

signal room, thank you for the pm i sent a response that if you dont mind i will post here.

(for everyone else this is alot of info all at once that is really hard to put into words and like i said im just starting to understand it and dont want to get too far ahead of myself, and of those who are trying to 'get me', so take this as you will for now until i can give more info at a later time.)

response to signalroom's pm to me:

well, its hard to talk about this because i dont want to 'jinx' it. well, i know i wont, because its just simply a natural process that not only you and i are going through, but thousand if not millions of humans are going through at this moment. a book i am reading now, called The Handbook of the Navigator is really helping put all of this into perspective. the thing is, you dont have to be 'awakened' to know that the earth itself is rapidly evolving, going through a 'change' or 'shift'. all people are 'Ma'a' or aware of this happening. but like the cells that make up the human body, we are the 'cells' the collective consciousness of the planet. as she evolves and changes, so do we, and vice versa. that change can be either negative or positive. and its vital for us who are awakened to step up to the plate and take up our vital positions. for the good of the planet, humanity, and the universe as a whole. ive known it my entire life. this depersonalisation, is essentially the first step in the awakening process. im just beginning to fully understand it but let me explain. this 'seperation' we feel from our bodies, is really just the conciousness becoming aware of itself. "what are these things called hands? what composes it? its just mechanical, just bones and fluid and flesh. it cant be me. how could it possibly be? i dont feel conected to it at all even though it moves with me." this is the conciousness becoming awake and aware and because its not quite ready to digest this new information it rejects it, misunderstands it and as a result the fear factor sets in. we fear what we dont yet understand. thats when we seek out help to fight this 'problem'. for now im just refering to depersonalisation and not mental illness as a whole even though they are connected. it all comes down to misundertanding. imbalances of the body are a result of not understanding the body. we eat the wrong things, we destroy the planet, we torture and kill billions of animals for the sake of protein requirements that are set by greedy globalists, we seek pointless forms of entertainment that just keep us in a state of suspended animation, we are sleepers. we sleep because we fear our desitiny. we fear the unknown which we do not yet understand or grasp. but once we stop this and awaken, educate ourselves, feed our bodies and minds with the right things, the fear starts to subside. our eyes open wider and our grip loosens on the things that kept us in mental and physical exile. we are finally free. free to evolve. free to take our vital role in the universe.


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## signalroom

sleepingbeauty, that was beautifully put.

scattered, if not now, when? if not you, who?

The shift into the I AM we've always been is happening now. We can choose to get on the swiftly moving bus or choose to resist being on the bus,
but the bus is moving.

I used to live in a Zen Buddhist meditation center where the main teaching of the Zen Master keeps coming back to me as the wisest piece of advice I've ever received (it kept me moving through my darkest DP days). ONLY GO STRAIGHT DON"T KNOW.

keep a big open mind in the pain, if possible, keep a big question, like WHO AM I? or WHAT IS THIS??
and only go straight don't know. The answer is on it's way.


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## signalroom

albeit, not an answer the mind might expect :wink:


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## Scattered

What is this?

This is mental illness brought on by either a traumatic experience, physical illness, or dysfunctional upbringing/life experiences. Its one thing to try to grow spiritually from a mental illness, its another thing entirely to turn a horrible condition into some sort of semi-enlightenment state which it is not. Its natural to want an explanation and even assume that this is some sort of supernatural phenomenon but it isn't. It's a problem that people are trying to get over. Some will, some won't. In the end its just needless suffering.


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## sleepingbeauty

thats your problem in a nutshell scattered. your interpretation. it doesnt matter what it could be, it could be anything. is all about how you see yourself and how you see the world and how you see suffering. *as long as you keep telling yourself you are suffering, you will continue to suffer.* i still have dp. i still have ADD. i still have a ton of issues. but as my perception shifts, so does my level of suffering. as i understand the spider, as i bring myself down to its level and see it for what it truly is, i lose all fear. a fear that was mostly in and of itself, completely unfounded. and it was only because i didnt understand it. try to look beyond what your organic and extremely limited mind allows. the chemicals in your brain are fucked up right? so what controls these chemicals? well, i could tell you the obvious first of all.. its what youre feeding your body. you feed your body with sh!t, obviously you will start to feel sh!tty. im talking about food yes, but also sunlight, air, entertainment, the company you keep. you wanna be a drunk hotpocket injesting gore gamer.. then what the hell do you expect? the results are going to be pretty plain. and honestly, if you think some moron in a labcoat who himself has no fricken idea and ADMITS he has no fricken idea why this little pink pill lifts some aspects of some disorders, is gonna come up with the answers for you? give me a break man! get off your excuse my french LAZYASS and get your answers yourself! because in the end, you are your own responsibility, and the answer are right in front of you all the time. you are just too self absorbed in your own self inflicted miserable being to get off your duff and grab it. ive done it. AND I FEEL BETTER NOW. wether you like it or believe it or not. i could really give a crap about your misery. at least i dealt with mine. i took charge baby. why dont you take charge eh? 8)


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## falling_free

this is some drawing about future evoloutions I did while I was in mental hospital for a while, dped up the eyeballs, basically on mars mentally. but there is some stuff on there about 2012, zero point theoires , string theory , vibes etc etc.


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## Scattered

Well one way that I have taken charge is to educate myself about my disorder enough to realize that it is a disorder.Whether its origins and ultimate cessation are psychological or chemical, I don't care anymore. If what you're saying is to accept what you have then I agree. However, I don't think you're truly accepting what you have. What you have is an illness, a disorder, a dysfunction. If you can accept that, then great. However it seems to me as if you are turning your disorder into some pushing off point for whatever spiritual theories or ideas you choose to believe in. The only reason why I responded to this post is because I think that that line of thinking is not only unhelpful, but can also be dangerous. A drug addict would never get better if he thought his substance abuse was helping him, while in reality it was killing him. In the same way, you'll never get better if you think that DP is actually helpful as some kind of evolutionary aid. It's not. Doctors may not be 100% on the causes and treatments for DP but there is enough evidence about it to form a basic idea of what it is. If you and falling free choose to wax poetic about third eye's, omega points, and chakras, then fine. I'm just saying that you should exercise some caution because this type of thinking might actually be hurting instead of helping.


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## Methusala

Wow, that's really cool art I think. It looks like it has a lot of deep psychological symbolism.

Scattered, I hear were you are coming from and agree there can be danger in going in that general direction, but here's a couple ideas about walking that fine line. Sleepingbeauty sounds like she's feeling significantly better and her second post mentioned 'suffering will continue as long as it's seen as suffering.' Here are 3 ideas on that line:
1. It has a similarity to a cognitive-behavioral thought changing approach for DP, where the DP thought habit cycle is changed through work from 'I am feeling disconnected, this is terrible, I cant control my panic (and thus continuing to be disconnected)' to 'I am feeling disconnected, but I consider it no big deal. (and thus won't panic and the dissconection wil gradualy reduce)'
That type of approach has been used with success by a few people here, and what they posted sounded similar to Sleeping beauty.
2. In particular, what LostOne posted sounded somewhat similar, and he also posted some ideas relating to his religion/spiritual beliefs and recovery. 1A's belief in Claire Weeks book also has a kind of 'true believer' feel to it. It seems to me, that when a person with DP makes this kind of breakthrough, they make it in their own way, and that often seems to involve deep beliefs, probably because DP can become such a deep issue.
3. I also feel a little uneasy toward 1A's, LostOnes and SleepingBeauties descriptions of their breakthroughs, and all for the same reason. The reason being that I fear getting swept up in their belief systems. With 1A I fear becoming a Claire Weeks fanatic, with LostOne getting that old time religion, and with SleepingBeauty becoming a big time Buhdist. I have critical thoughts about all 3 od these belif systems, and Buhdism might even scare me the most, because I think at minimum it walks a very fine line between spirituality and DP. 
4. Despite these fears I still think there is some very valuable stuff to learn from their posts.
5. A vague thought-the brain focusing mechanisms behind OCD need something to groove healthily on, perhaps spiritual type beliefs provide that in a better fashion than OCD'ing on DP states and thus keeping the states reinforced.

M


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## Methusala

Here is a reformated repost of my above message to make it easier to read: (I put enters at the end of each line)

Wow, that's really cool art I think. It looks like it has a lot of deep 
psychological symbolism.

Scattered, I hear were you are coming from and agree there can be 
danger in going in that general direction, but here's a couple ideas about 
walking that fine line. Sleepingbeauty sounds like she's feeling 
significantly better and her second post mentioned 'suffering will continue 
as long as it's seen as suffering.' Here are 3 ideas on that line:

1. It has a similarity to a cognitive-behavioral thought changing approach
for DP, where the DP thought habit cycle is changed through work from 'I
am feeling disconnected, this is terrible, I cant control my panic (and thus
continuing to be disconnected)' to 'I am feeling disconnected, but I 
consider it no big deal. (and thus won't panic and the dissconection wil 
gradualy reduce)'

That type of approach has been used with success by a few people here, 
and what they posted sounded similar to Sleeping beauty.

2. In particular, what LostOne posted sounded somewhat similar, and he 
also posted some ideas relating to his religion/spiritual beliefs and 
recovery. 1A's belief in Claire Weeks book also has a kind of 'true 
believer' feel to it. It seems to me, that when a person with DP makes this
kind of breakthrough, they make it in their own way, and that often 
seems to involve deep beliefs, probably because DP can become such a
deep issue.

3. I also feel a little uneasy toward 1A's, LostOnes and SleepingBeauties 
descriptions of their breakthroughs, and all for the same reason. The 
reason being that I fear getting swept up in their belief systems. With 1A I
fear becoming a Claire Weeks fanatic, with LostOne getting that old time
religion, and with SleepingBeauty becoming a big time Buhdist. I have 
critical thoughts about all 3 od these belif systems, and Buhdism might 
even scare me the most, because I think at minimum it walks a very fine 
line between spirituality and DP.

4. Despite these fears I still think there is some very valuable stuf to
learn from their posts.
5. A vague thought-the brain focusing mechanisms behind OCD need 
something to groove healthily on, perhaps spiritual type beliefs provide 
that in a better fashion than OCD'ing on DP states and thus keeping the 
states reinforced.

M


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## Methusala

BTW, congratulations and thank you SleepingBeauty
for a great example of how to heal and feel better.

M


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## sleepingbeauty

lol thanks, i think. :roll:

and by the way, im not a fricken buddhist. :lol:

im not religious at all. never have been, and never effing will be thank you very much. :roll:

what ive said a million times already is that my 'awakening' is based on current scientific studies, as well as goddamn it... must i always repeat myself!!! :x


*COMMON SENSE! *

cummon people. dont lump me, or anyone else for that matter into a category of "oh so dangerously thinking nutjobs" just so you can dismiss everything completely. (in fact, i cant wait for martin to invade this post) personally, i think people who put all their faith in conventional medicine and the corrupt at its very foundation pharmeceutical industry, have given up on themselves completely and are the ones who should be dismissed. its these very people who are still chasing their tails. you notice that people who have found so called, 'alternative' methods of healing tend to leave this site and not come back? you notice, that the druggies on this site keep asking the same questions, and are getting worse and worse by the minuite? of course i realize im asking the wrong people these questions. i mean, anytime posts like mine surface, they are quick to be extinguished and censored. in here its like, eat these pills or die. dont talk to me about other methods cause i dont want to hear them. im perfectly happy with my sexual side effects, my dandruff, my backacne, my internal organs messed up, my unexplained weight gain, my brick-like poo, my hands shaking so bad that i can barely type, the millions of bugs crawling under my skin, my hives, my yeast infections, my heart palipitations, and so on, and so on. please doc, just one more, just one more side effect please, i wont be happy until im on life support.

yea i know what its like. remember guys, IVE BEEN THERE. ive done it ALL. and now here i am. im BETTER NOW. its taken time. and EFFORT. and the doctors only left me with the burden of more problems then i had. now i know im on the right path. and by dismissing me as a 'oh so dangerously thinking nutjob', thats literally calling me an idiot.

IM NOT A FRICKEN IDIOT GOSH!


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## sleepingbeauty

Malia's diary entry
6/11/02

Time flys by so quickly. Im growing up too fast for myself.

Im not comfortable.

My whole live feels like a dream,
a nightmare that i cant wake up from.

As soon as i start to gain a little bit of control of myself and my existance,
it all just crumbles apart again. 
As soon as i steady myself, i end up faltering in some way.

I hate it.

This constant game of catch. 
Either im here, or im there, good or bad, stable or scattered.

I hate bad days.

I think i need to embrace my good days more,
and take more of a concerted(?) effort to reflect and appreciate the good moments when they happen. 
Cause the bad days and moments seem to overwhelm and consume me.

I feel consumed and empty. 
I feel drained and tired.
I just want to sleep all my fears away,
and wake up with this whole day one big nasty forgotten dream.

I hate my dreams lately. 
theyre all bad.
I have yet to have a good dream.
I would like to have this whole week pass by in one blink.
This week started bad, and its only tuesday.

I just want to die.

That was written before i knew or understood or had any idea i had dp or mental illness. i didnt even know i was clinically depressed. and that is just one entry in over 60 i wrote that year. and they all sound exactly the same. and if you read my diary from when i was only 11, it sounds the same as well. im not like that anymore. because i learned about myself. i learned about the mind/body connection. and with this knowledge i learned how to heal myself. you cant just treat the mind and not treat the body. its all one machine. and you cant treat the body without understanding how it functions, and that includes the core energy and electricity that drives it. the body is mearly a machine. its up to you, the driver, to maintain and feed it the right kind of fuel, clean burning fuel. and its up to you to make sure every part, from the engine to the radiator to the exaust to the tires are all running in top shape. obviously, if you concentrate only on one part of the car, without aknowledging the rest, the car will eventually fail. thats why waiting for a magic pill is not going to fix the problem. when i wrote the above, i ran on tacobell and bladder busters. i had no clue what i was doing to my body. sure i had other underlying childhood issues i was dealing with as well, but that ties right into it. thats another part of the car that needs tending to. just like the spirit, the essense, chi, soul, conciousness, force, energy, whatever you wanna call it, hes the driver. and the driver needs love too. he needs to be running smoothly, cause if hes not, if hes polluted with substances hes gonna keep getting pulled over for DUI until he kills someone or kills himself. the car, the body, needs to be healthy in order to function at peak level. the driver, the conciousness, needs to have his wits about him. feed your body, your mind, your senses nothing but negative, the end result is not going to be positive. what im talking about is common sense stuff.

and about this evolution i speak of, its just me going to the next level in my development. and if you notice by the diary entry, ive come a looooooooong way baby! dont knock me down and accuse me of calling bluff. I KNOW ive got a damn good hand. maybe not a royal flush, but give it time, the games not over yet. :wink:


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## falling_free

you misinterate me scatted, I dont think dp is part of evoloution or an elightned state, but I am interested in metaphysical Speculation related to dp because I have to live with it every day.

my posts on scitzophnia mental illness and evolution also was just that speculation, as I dont ever believe anything without evidence from the actual world collectvilly known as reality, I just like to speculate and think a lot.


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## Pablo

sleepingbeauty said:


> im not like that anymore. because i learned about myself. i learned about the mind/body connection. and with this knowledge i learned how to heal myself. you cant just treat the mind and not treat the body. its all one machine. and you cant treat the body without understanding how it functions, and that includes the core energy and electricity that drives it. the body is mearly a machine. its up to you, the driver, to maintain and feed it the right kind of fuel, clean burning fuel. and its up to you to make sure every part, from the engine to the radiator to the exaust to the tires are all running in top shape. obviously, if you concentrate only on one part of the car, without aknowledging the rest, the car will eventually fail. thats why waiting for a magic pill is not going to fix the problem. when i wrote the above, i ran on tacobell and bladder busters. i had no clue what i was doing to my body. sure i had other underlying childhood issues i was dealing with as well, but that ties right into it. thats another part of the car that needs tending to. just like the spirit, the essense, chi, soul, conciousness, force, energy, whatever you wanna call it, hes the driver. and the driver needs love too. he needs to be running smoothly, cause if hes not, if hes polluted with substances hes gonna keep getting pulled over for DUI until he kills someone or kills himself. the car, the body, needs to be healthy in order to function at peak level. the driver, the conciousness, needs to have his wits about him. feed your body, your mind, your senses nothing but negative, the end result is not going to be positive. what im talking about is common sense stuff.


You have hit the nail on the head, I cant say that I get what you are saying about evolving but in terms of getting better and the mind/body connection + the impossible to find magic pill you are speaking the most sense I have heard from anyone for a long time.

More people especially people with dp need to understand the mind/body connection and just as the mind affects the body,the body also affects the mind. Effectively a large part of what DP actually is, is a disconnection of the mind from the body and if you remove the tension and create safety in the body then most of the worse aspects of DP will dissapear., actually doing this is difficult but it is a far better strategy to approach DP than necking a pill and hoping it goes away.


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## Guest

Sleeping Beauty, you are right on!! Don't let the ignorant pull your chain. They can't help it. You should know by now that you can't share '12th grade information' with 'first-graders.'

As a general rule, the 'masses' have powerful buttons where anything 'esoteric' is concerned. That 'button' was deliberately placed there by tyrants in times passed (MHO). It's so entrenched in the biophysical mechanism that people, as we know, have been driven to kill if that button gets punched just right. I don't know why they take the issue so f'ing personally. I guess it's because it has a powerful 'hook' to survival mechanisms....most especially the 'death' button. Mess with that one and it could destroy any hope they have of 'going to heaven.' 

It's okay. Everybody's gotta stand somewhere until they can stand somewhere else. People can be very anal sometimes. They'll even stay on a sinking ship while 'stupid' rats have the sense to leave it.


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## Guest

Pablo said:


> You have hit the nail on the head, I cant say that I get what you are saying about evolving but in terms of getting better and the mind/body connection + the impossible to find magic pill you are speaking the most sense I have heard from anyone for a long time.
> 
> More people especially people with dp need to understand the mind/body connection and just as the mind affects the body,the body also affects the mind. Effectively a large part of what DP actually is, is a disconnection of the mind from the body and if you remove the tension and create safety in the body then most of the worse aspects of DP will dissapear., actually doing this is difficult but it is a far better strategy to approach DP than necking a pill and hoping it goes away.


Kudos, Pablo! The ole mind/body connection thing. There is waaayyy more to that than even the medical community realizes. They would go a long way (the medical community) toward making real progress if they would lend more credence to 'joe blow on the street' and his experiences.

For years I would use the description of 'a feedback loop' to try to describe what was going on with me to doctors of various disciplines. And that's exactly what it is....a feedback loop. If there are any DP programmers out there, they could probably relate to the term. One thing feeds off the other and feeds back to the first and around and around we go.

DP's often have the 'talent' of being able to observe these goings on from an experiential yet separate vantage point. If they can 'watch it' then who's experiencing it and who's watching?  When trying to explain what was going on with me to family members, for instance, I would say that 'something has me, I don't have it.' They had no clue what that means and would get very impatient. They just couldn't understand how I could 'be here' but 'not be here' all at the same time.

So 'who is who?' If I'm observing myself, then what's 'myself' and 'who' is 'observing'? :wink:


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## Scattered

kwgrid said:


> Sleeping Beauty, you are right on!! Don't let the ignorant pull your chain. They can't help it. You should know by now that you can't share '12th grade information' with 'first-graders.'
> 
> As a general rule, the 'masses' have powerful buttons where anything 'esoteric' is concerned.


Well I'm sorry if injecting some "COMMON SENSE" into the thread makes me a first grader who is too inferior to understand your vast esoteric knowledge. But I'm sure thats just because the "powers that be" have brainwashed me into thinking the way that I do. I'll go read some Aleister Crowley or Celestine Prophecy so that I can be more on your level.

And another thing. There is a reason why people have a concern with the so called esoteric button. It's because nutjobs try to pass off scientifically unsound and ridiculous concepts as facts. Perhaps your knowledge is far too advanced for modern day analysis. I'd rather accept what can be tested and understood than speculate about vague new-agey wishful thinking. Seriously, if this helps people then fine but don't try to pass yourself off as some evolved form of human who is beyond everyone else, or the so-called ignorant masses.


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## Guest

Scattered said:


> Well I'm sorry if injecting some "COMMON SENSE" into the thread makes me a first grader who is too inferior to understand your vast esoteric knowledge. But I'm sure thats just because the "powers that be" have brainwashed me into thinking the way that I do. I'll go read some Aleister Crowley or Celestine Prophecy so that I can be more on your level.
> 
> And another thing. There is a reason why people have a concern with the so called esoteric button. It's because nutjobs try to pass off scientifically unsound and ridiculous concepts as facts. Perhaps your knowledge is far too advanced for modern day analysis. I'd rather accept what can be tested and understood than speculate about vague new-agey wishful thinking. Seriously, if this helps people then fine but don't try to pass yourself off as some evolved form of human who is beyond everyone else, or the so-called ignorant masses.


Scattered, bless your darlin' heart, you made my point. 

From time immemorial, visionaries...whether science-oriented or theologically bent, or esoterically-driven have aroused emotional and intellectual 'ire' in the majority of the populace.

Has it ever occurred to you that 'COMMON SENSE' is just what it implies: Common. If no one ever ventured to explore the 'uncommon', no progress in any area would have ever been made.

As for the 'esoteric' arena, there is ignorance there as much as in any other arena of thought and experience. Not everyone who speaks on that subject is a 'master' and those that are 'masters' seldom, if ever, open their mouth. I do not claim to have 'reached the mount,' as it were. However, I do claim that there is a path to it.

'Proof' of anything at all is only available to those that can 'see' it and understand it. You could have positive proof of the 'string theory', for example but unless you're talking to Stephen Hawking, you'll get a lot of blank stares and accusations of being a 'know-it-all.'

To borrow from the Bible, Jesus said "These things I do, you can do, and more." Hmmmmmm Sounds to me like he didn't mean that to happen in the 'afterlife.'

DP's are having very unique experiences. They are as varied as the number of people having them. Some of them are basically bent toward a scientific mode of thought. Others are bent in a more esoteric direction. No different than someone being good at math and someone else not being so good at math. Some people, like doubiyng Thomas, need 'proof.' Others don't need proof.

Why are you so defensive? If a college professor told you that you couldn't participate in a discussion on quantum physics because you haven't had the courses, would you be insulted? There's no difference.


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## Guest

Dear Scattered,

I meant to include an apology in my last reply to your post if my words insulted you. I shouldn't have stated things in the form that I did. It was thoughtless of me to neglect to consider my audience's sensibilities.

'Common sense' plays a very important part in keeping things in perspective. But whose 'perspective' are we talking about? It has been a discovery of mine that the 'masses' are seldom right about anything that doesn't serve their context. 'Common sense' arises from known factors that have been tried and tested and proven to serve the 'common good.' But guess where it starts: with uncommon people thinking uncommon thoughts and trying uncommon things. Even 'scientific investigation' starts with an uncommon theory drawn from the common arena. Surely you know that.


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## Scattered

I don't have a problem with a person proposing a different theory about their affliction or aspects of reality. Its not as if I have a pathological need to destroy these ideas. The reason why I'm so defensive and posted what I did, is that I DO have a problem when people use their perspective in order to engage in some form of elitism. It's one thing to believe you have a superior or correct view, its another thing entirely to use this supposed knowledge as some sort of badge that distinguishes you from everyone else who are all "ignorant". A perfect example of this is a debate I had with Homeskooled. I may not agree with his point of view, but I don't consider him to be ignorant. It's these sorts of ideas that engender feelings of superiority that can be dangerous and harmful.


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## Guest

Scattered said:


> I don't have a problem with a person proposing a different theory about their affliction or aspects of reality. Its not as if I have a pathological need to destroy these ideas. The reason why I'm so defensive and posted what I did, is that I DO have a problem when people use their perspective in order to engage in some form of elitism. It's one thing to believe you have a superior or correct view, its another thing entirely to use this supposed knowledge as some sort of badge that distinguishes you from everyone else who are all "ignorant". A perfect example of this is a debate I had with Homeskooled. I may not agree with his point of view, but I don't consider him to be ignorant. It's these sorts of ideas that engender feelings of superiority that can be dangerous and harmful.


As I stated in my apology, I should have considered the sensibilities of anyone reading that post. I'm sorry that you interpreted my words as me donning some sort of badge of superiority. I don't feel that way about my position at all....as a general rule. But I also see the flag of 'common sense' quite frequently wielded as the 'acid test' of the validity of any thought pattern or experience. I'm quite frankly 'up to here' with that tactic. 'Common sense' can be a real anchor to the forward progress of discourse and free thinking.

It's occuring to me as I write this that my words were more than likely a defensive posture of my own. I, too, have a problem with people who try to use their perspective to attempt to claim or create some form of elitism. I think you pushed a button of mine that hit close to home. My sister has an 'attitude' about my perspective. She is utterly incapabable of holding an objective discourse on the subject. Instead of just telling me whenever she doesn't 'get' something I said, she gets insulted as though I were deliberately talking over her head to make her look ignorant. She throws her version of 'common sense' out there as her form of 'proof' that she has it right as if there was a battle of right/wrong to begin with...which there wasn't!!!!

It's a curious thing to me, that in all my discussions with friends or family, whether personal or objective, general or specific, the only time anyone ever 'loses it' and starts feeling defensive and antagonistic is when I get on subjects such as evolution, enlightenment, and other esoteric topics. I won't even be directing anything at them at all. I'll be free-floating in my thoughts...a sort of internal brainstorming, parts of which come out my mouth. Suddenly I'm some sort of 'smartass.'

So your reaction was not an unknown to me....disappointing, but not unknown. Let me reiterate, however, that I didn't choose my words thoughtfully. I'll try to do better. :wink:


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## Pablo

Scattered said:


> I'd rather accept what can be tested and understood than speculate about vague new-agey wishful thinking. .


The mind-body connection can be proven scientifically, you have to look at the work of the neuroscientist Candice Pert who was close to nobel prize level at one point in her career who proved the body-mind functions as a single psychosomatic network of information molecules which control our health and physiology.

Why do you think that mental health problems are so prominent these days and on the increase in western society?

Very few drugs which are commonly prescribed do better than a placebo but are viewed as the first line of defence against mental problems, do you not think that this common view is wrong?

More money is spent on promoting drugs each year than training medical professionals and these drug companies sell their drugs by selling psychiatric sickness. It is these immoral companies which dictate the 'common sense' so I would say that it is very fair and scientific to say that the 'common sense' for mental health is pretty far removed from what actually works.

Im not trying to say that I am above the next person on the street it is just that often what actually works is often ignored because there is no monetary value in it. For example there is a Yogic breathing technique called the Sudarshan Kriya which has been proven in numerous rigorous scientific studies to cure depression and anxiety in 70% of cases, but has anybody ever heard of it it? no because it will wipe off millions of profits of drug companies
http://www.aolresearch.org/pdf/Depression%20Summary.pdf

I wouldn't say any of this is new-agey or wishy washy I would say that it is the sort of view which more people need to adopt to actually understand what is going on.


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## Scattered

Right, but that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about the mind-body connection which I view as well established, scientifically. I'm talking about the spiritual overtones such as mental evolution and DP as a means to esoteric knowledge. Thats all I'm saying. If yogic breathing or meditation or just positive thinking works for you then fine. I'm simply advocating a middle path between biological reductionism and spirituality.


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## Pablo

Well I think suffering can propel you to greater understanding and greater advancement in life, thats if you get over it, as many of the greatest figures in history such as Einstein, Newton, Beethoven, Van Gough, Dickens, Churchill as well as many others suffered fom mental illness, you might even say that it is a prerequisite for greatness, but I do agree with you that I doubt DP can lead to some sort of elightenment or evolution. (I thought you were knocking the mind-body understanding which I think is key to beating DP which is why i responded before)


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## Guest

Scattered said:


> Right, but that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about the mind-body connection which I view as well established, scientifically. I'm talking about the spiritual overtones such as mental evolution and DP as a means to esoteric knowledge. Thats all I'm saying. If yogic breathing or meditation or just positive thinking works for you then fine. I'm simply advocating a middle path between biological reductionism and spirituality.


"..DP as a means to esoteric knowledge." There is a miscommunication here, IMHO. I, for one, never intended to communicate that DP was a 'means to esoteric knowledge.' The context I tried, speaking for myself, to place DP in as far as the esoterica area is concerned, is that there may be far more than meets the eye in 'normal' medical realms. I dismiss the total pathologizing of DP. Please note I said 'total.' There are obviously aspects of DP that individuals need support with to continue to function in a healthy way in society in general...to earn a living and so on.

From what I can gather so far on these forums, DP manifests differently for different people. DP in itself hasn't even been clarified to the satisfaction of large portions of the medical community.

If 'what and why' can't be answered in any reasonable sense, what is wrong with exploring possible meaningful and even rational aspects? Furthermore, if there is no definitive medical treatment, I would think that reassurance from any direction would prove helpful if only in the short term.

I've been dealing with what I see as DP for 30 years without medical assistance (tried it but it was worse than the problem itself) and without going to church and becoming a Bible-thumper and without any support from kindhearted, well-intentioned (deliver me) others. Quite the contrary.

And I agree with Pablo's remarks about the pharmaceutical community. Ya know, there IS a chance that somebody has done some research beyond a newspaper and a couple of books or what Uncle Joe or Aunt Sue or Professor 'knows-it-all' told them. You don't have to accept a blessed thing anyone says. By the same token, we don't have to accept what you say either. I will say this: you might open your mind just a teensy bit and do your own research. However, if you choose to do that, you have to use the 'critical thinking method' and keep an open mind and not just look for whatever seems to validate your personal position.


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## Pablo

kwgrid said:


> DP's often have the 'talent' of being able to observe these goings on from an experiential yet separate vantage point. If they can 'watch it' then who's experiencing it and who's watching?  When trying to explain what was going on with me to family members, for instance, I would say that 'something has me, I don't have it.' They had no clue what that means and would get very impatient. They just couldn't understand how I could 'be here' but 'not be here' all at the same time.
> 
> So 'who is who?' If I'm observing myself, then what's 'myself' and 'who' is 'observing'? :wink:


 I have been thinking a lot about this and perhaps this is *the* question, although very confusing especially if you have DP, but there is always a part of me which is kind of untouchable from anxiety/DP, the part which witnesses the whole process, so is that me and if it is then does that mean that the other part is not me, or if it is me then how can you witness yourself do something, its like looking at your own eyes or touching your finger with the same finger :wink:


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## Guest

Pablo said:


> I have been thinking a lot about this and perhaps this is *the* question, although very confusing especially if you have DP, but there is always a part of me which is kind of untouchable from anxiety/DP, the part which witnesses the whole process, so is that me and if it is then does that mean that the other part is not me, or if it is me then how can you witness yourself do something, its like looking at your own eyes or touching your finger with the same finger :wink:


Hi, Pablo,

The following is only my interpretation based on my personal reading, experiences, contemplation, etc. I don't, in any form, present this as actual fact. [stated to satisfy anyone that may think otherwise]

These concepts are difficult to put into words.

1. 'I' is a separatist concept of the biophysical body/mind. It's what says 'I am I and you are you.' It is derived from the genetic body/mind. It is the 'womb' where the spirit begins its journey at birth into the physical plane. It is solely geared to the physical world and the biophysical aspects of the body which include taste, touch, smell, emotions, intellectual absorption of data, language, etc., and the interpretations of those for its pleasure, survival, creativity, judgement and meaning of physical dimensional reality. Initially, this 'I' experiences a world of polarity...duality of consciousness and experience. Good/bad, right/wrong, pain/pleasure, etc.

2. There is an 'I' that survives death. There is growing evidence of this that even the scientific community reluctantly allows a modicum of credence to. If 'awareness/consciousness' can exist outside the body as demonstrated by 'near death' experiences where the patient can describe the entire setting and even things that were said and done then it follows, logically, that there is 'something' beyond the physical that, at the same time, exists within the physical.

[I don't feel like I'm setting the stage for this very well but I'll muddle on.]

The 'you' that is 'observing' what's going on with you yet feels separate from it is the same 'you' that, at other times, is involved with experiencing it. In one case, you've stepped back, so to speak. In the other case, you've involved yourself with it. What you observe while you are the 'observing' you is the body's 'isness.' It has its own functionality that does not require conscious interference, validation, or permission. This is evidenced by the fact that the body continues to function while 'we' are unconscious. This also relates to the dream state where we experience a 'reality' but our conscious mind is not involved in it.

Learning to voluntarily switch from involvement to observation is an ability strived for by many so-called 'adepts' in the esoteric arena. That's why I think that in the case of some DP's, I think it is an involuntary evolutionary push. It's thrust upon the unknowing, unprepared, uneducated, involuntary 'adept'.  To me, it's no coincidence that it is emerging during a time when there is so much knowledge available and so much compassionate support. In ancient times, anyone experiencing these phenomenon would be considered 'sacred' and taken directly to the nearest ancient school of wisdom for education and training in the mastery of themselves and the realization of their higher potentials. I realize this position is waaayyy out there for our arrogant, intellectual, technical, home and hearth, good ole boy society.

This 'I' that has heretofore experienced all aspects of physicallity in a dual framework is moving toward a more unified, nondual, experience of this same physical reality. The dual consciousness has experienced both poles of that consciousness....all the opposites from one extreme to the other. It is now moving back to center....but not just center. It's rising as it returns. Think of the width of the base of a pyramid and then notice how the sides start coming together as they rise to the top. This is analagous of the 'rising consciousness.' The duality begins to balance and the higher it rises, the less polarity there is until at the summit there only 'is.' There is no duality. There just 'is.' But, heck, this is another one of those things that has tons of aspects that can't all be covered here.

I think there is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding surrounding the terms 'esoteric', 'evolution' and 'enlightenment'. It's placed in some airy fairy context that appears to be outside everyday life and having no bearing on practical reality. Nothing could be further from the truth. But that's yet another 'treatise' for another day....or days...or weeks...or years. :lol:


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## Scattered

No, I just think that you're coming up with very complicated explanations for a fairly simple psychological process. The way it happens, within the brain physically, may not be completely understood but observation can show us the basic process at hand. And this basic observation would lead us to the conclusion that DP is pathology, pure and simple. Dissociation in general, as a proper and temporary response to trauma, is not pathological and is actually adaptive. It's when this response becomes generalized to all aspects of life that it becomes a pathology. When this occurs, a basic defense mechanism becomes stuck to the "ON" setting and begins to interefere with our life. If you somehow learn and grow from DP, then thats very positive but doesn't show that DP itself is an evolutionary step forward. In fact, the experiences of most people with DP would show it to be an evolutionary step backward, insomuch as it makes survival (social and sometimes physical) much more difficult.

I'm sorry but I fail to see how a woman who is sexually abused and becomes dissociated is somehow beginning a process of spiritual evolution. Or how a soldier who after being exposed to the horrors of war develops PTSD and starts dissociating in order to deal with the massive amount of pain they face. This isn't spiritual evolution or a positive process. This is a fractured psyche and broken brain struggling to find normalcy amongst chaos. Calling it anything else does it a disservice.


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## Scattered

double post, disregard


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## Guest

Scattered said:


> No, I just think that you're coming up with very complicated explanations for a fairly simple psychological process. The way it happens, within the brain physically, may not be completely understood but observation can show us the basic process at hand. And this basic observation would lead us to the conclusion that DP is pathology, pure and simple. Dissociation in general, as a proper and temporary response to trauma, is not pathological and is actually adaptive. It's when this response becomes generalized to all aspects of life that it becomes a pathology. When this occurs, a basic defense mechanism becomes stuck to the "ON" setting and begins to interefere with our life. If you somehow learn and grow from DP, then thats very positive but doesn't show that DP itself is an evolutionary step forward. In fact, the experiences of most people with DP would show it to be an evolutionary step backward, insomuch as it makes survival (social and sometimes physical) much more difficult.
> 
> I'm sorry but I fail to see how a woman who is sexually abused and becomes dissociated is somehow beginning a process of spiritual evolution. Or how a soldier who after being exposed to the horrors of war develops PTSD and starts dissociating in order to deal with the massive amount of pain they face. This isn't spiritual evolution or a positive process. This is a fractured psyche and broken brain struggling to find normalcy amongst chaos. Calling it anything else does it a disservice.


I get what you're saying and I agree to a point. Also, I do not intend, in any form or fashion, to diminish the effects of DP, PTSD, DD, or any other form of psychological survival symptoms. I've had just about all of them myself.

I also partially agree with the 'step backward' that you mention. I think dissociating, in any form, is a way to reduce the full psychophysical impact for a genetic mindset that cannot resolve the full impact of certain experiences. In that regard, I have begun to see that there may very well be 'lost' abilities in the human psyche that were there eons ago and have been lost over thousands of generations.....like a muscle not used and it atrophies. Severe shocks to the body and/or psyche could very possibly engage these latent and forgotten survival mechanisms. In that sense, it's a backwards jump, but at the same time it's a forward leap because it brings back into focus aspects of ourselves that were lost.

And everything you say would bear more weight if it weren't for the fact that many people develop DP or DR or any of the other D's that have not suffered severe trauma or shock either to their body or their psyche. So what's going on there?

Let me repeat, I do not intend, in any form, to diminish the pain and difficulties of any of these states. I would be the last one to do that considering that my entire family and even doctors of every flavor would diminish my experiences, terror, and rage. If I could resolve it, make it go away for anybody, I would gladly do that. I would keep my own 'stuff' and never complain if I could make it go away for others.


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## Scattered

kwgrid said:


> And everything you say would bear more weight if it weren't for the fact that many people develop DP or DR or any of the other D's that have not suffered severe trauma or shock either to their body or their psyche. So what's going on there?


I don't think that dissociation is only caused by trauma but I believe that some form of trauma even mild trauma probably accounts for the majority of cases. For example, I usually recognize the main cause of my experience of DP as related to bad drug experiences. However, I've come to realize that I was dissociated to some extent much earlier than I previously believed. I think this has to do with my early life and lack of social integration. I disliked my situation so much that I went "away" in my head and fantasized alot. I think dissociation can also be a radical mechanism we use to get away from unpleasant or unwanted situations. In its most mild form, DP can be a pleasant daydream that lets us escape from a situation we don't want to believe in or feel we have no control over.

Otherwise, the two steps back one step forward idea that you proposed seems plausible enough. I would couch this in much more simpler terms and say that while DP is horrible, it can offer a very different perspective that _may_ lead to positive life improvements. And I'll also say that some of these improvements may not have occured had it not been for the shock of dissociation. Even as pessimistic as I am, I realize that good things can sometimes result from disasters.


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## Guest

Scattered said:


> Otherwise, the two steps back one step forward idea that you proposed seems plausible enough. I would couch this in much more simpler terms and say that while DP is horrible, it can offer a very different perspective that _may_ lead to positive life improvements. And I'll also say that some of these improvements may not have occured had it not been for the shock of dissociation. Even as pessimistic as I am, I realize that good things can sometimes result from disasters.


Something like this could be said about any negative life experience. Horrible experiences can lead to a greater existence. The reverse has also occurred: really great things happening to people that messes them up for the rest of their life.

It's very important to remember that the human body is a biological entity. It is subject to adaptive changes not just to bad experiences but to societal and earth changes.....just like animals. The fact that we are conscious of our existence doesn't alter that fact. How we've dealt with it in the past has been less than ideal, MHO.

I believe that we actually lost some very powerful adaptive and survival mechanisms like the senses that animals have to changes in the weather or the earth. We got intellectually arrogant on the one hand and squashed by power-mongers on the other hand. We've been brainwashed out of our finer sense.

I'm convinced that life use to be beautiful....much more sublime than it has been in the last several thousand years. What changed? Who did it? We did it or we let others do it to us.....over the course of eons. While pursuing physicality, the more sublime aspects atrophied.

I posted a reply to Pablo earlier today. I think it's in another category on this forum. It touches on a concept a little bit related to this. Don't want to repeat myself here.

I look for the 'benefit' in everything. It may not be a shortterm benefit...much to the dismay of our 'instant gratification' society...which includes the 'instant fix.' If something takes longer than a few weeks to resolve we have a hissy fit.

We have it 'made up' how we think it should be. A lot of 'common sense' is just plain old, old, old way of dealing with something. It's familiar. It 'feels' like the truth so we re-confirm it and, therefore, re-entrench what may not be the best way to deal with something. Maybe great for emergencies but not good in the longrun.

One of my favorite sayings is "There's a right way, a wrong way, and the best way." 'Which is which' is a very subjective (MHO) thing yet the decision finally arrived at and accepted by society at large has everything to do with what the 'masses' decide it is. The 'masses' have a tendency to perpetuate known quantities. Any seeming change is simply variations on the same theme. Change is viewed as taking the tinkertoys apart and putting them together in a new way. Trying to inject anything other than 'tinker toys' into the equation incites fear and insecurity. Forgive the analogy but they DID crucify Jesus, right?

[dismount soapbox]


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## CECIL

Sleepingbeauty - Run with it  And please keep us posted, it looks like there's a lot of people here who would like to hear about your progress.

Finally, Falling_Free: What the fuck? They put you in a hospital for drawing pictures like that? If it was up to me I would have made you president. IMO some of the most accurate information I've seen and from the mind of someone who is supposedly insane. Awesome 

Scattered: Try to think of "disasters" as challenging life experiences that you can learn from and grow. It may seem terrifying and confusing now but when you work through the issues you look back with a lot more clarity and realise what it was all for.


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