# ptsd



## hurricane12 (May 22, 2008)

i think i have ptsd with this dp/dr but im not sure 
i have some of the symptoms like bad nightmares and avoiding anything that reminds me of the event
but i dont want to diagnose myself with something i dont have
how are you diagnosed with ptsd?


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

http://www.medicinenet.com/posttraumatic_stress_disorder/article.htm


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

You'd need to see a doctor to get an official diagnosis.

Many symptoms of this family of disorders (which includes PTSD) overlap. So don't self-diagnose. But if you experienced a traumatic event it is certainly possible you have this - you can get DP/DR from PTSD.


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

here is a quote from the above link


> Symptoms of PTSD that tend to be associated with C-PTSD include: problems regulating feelings, which can result in suicidal thoughts, explosive anger, or passive aggressive behaviors; a tendency to forget the trauma or feel detached from one's life (dissociation) or body (depersonalization); persistent feelings of helplessness, shame, guilt or being completely different from others; feeling the perpetrator of trauma is all-powerful and preoccupation with either revenge against or allegiance with the perpetrator; and severe change in those things that give the sufferer meaning, like a loss of spiritual faith or an ongoing sense of helplessness, hopelessness, or despair.


 :shock:


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

Yeah - I don't think there is a psychological condition that doesn't describe me in some way at this point. *sigh


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2009)

*Folks, ya'll have to remember that you can't self-diagnose or "guess" what you have. As someone said a professional (and I've run into a great many of those who are idiots, sigh) diagnosis is most critical to the proper treatment. Also, no one here is an expert in anything other than his/her own experience.)*

Also, I'll say this for the millionth time (though I don't mind) 8) PTSD is a very specific disorder: the KEY part to PT is having experienced a LIFE-THTREATENING event ... and (I'm cutting this to the bare bones here) the best example of this would be serving on the front lines in Iraq. PTSD is most commonly associated with war veterans and has been called everything from "shell-shock" -- WWI -- to "battle fatigue" -- Korea? -- to PTSD.

Other PTSD sufferers: survived the plane landing on the Hudson river a few weeks back? Holocaust survivors. Survivor of rape/assualt. Survivor of a serious auto accident (wherein one is afraid to get back into a car and drive, etc.).

What was the traumatic event? This is important.

Also, there is something of a difference from say being sexually abused over a period of time (THIS DOES NOT MAKE IT ANY LESS TRAUMATIC) vs. one LARGE event where at that time you are CERTAIN you will die. That you will literally lose your life. PTSD for a child more specifically would be seeing his/her mother being shot by his/her father in front of him/her.

One could have BOTH. DP/DR symptoms, and PTSD symptoms. The question is what happened FIRST, what was your predisposition, what type of therapy do you need, what type of meds.

In my understanding PTSD refers specifically to a LIFE-THREATENING DISTASTROUS EVENT equivalent to seeing one's fellow soldier getting blown up by mortar fire.

Cheers.
D


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## FinnG (Nov 25, 2008)

hurricane12 said:


> i think i have ptsd with this dp/dr but im not sure
> i have some of the symptoms like bad nightmares and avoiding anything that reminds me of the event


Hi, these are at least two symptoms that would qualify for a ptsd diagnosis (and the dp/dr, too). Absolutely, and if you want to know for sure if it's this diagnosis that fits you, find a therapist that can check this with you.
Ptsd can also occur as the result of shorterm or longterm abuse, be it sexual, emotional and/or physical and needs NOT be life-threatening, that is a common misconception. Take care.


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2009)

FinnG said:


> Ptsd can also occur as the result of shorterm or longterm abuse, be it sexual, emotional and/or physical and needs NOT be life-threatening, that is a common misconception. Take care.


Cheers, Finn,
I must disagree. PTSD as I have encountered it has mainly been the scourge of war and disaster victims. That is what makes it separate from long-term abuse. From the link above:



> Posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is an emotional illness that *develops as a result of a terribly frightening, life-threatening, or otherwise highly unsafe experience. PTSD sufferers re-experience the traumatic event or events in some way, tend to avoid places, people, or other things that remind them of the event (avoidance), and are exquisitely sensitive to normal life experiences (hyperarousal).* Although this condition has likely existed since human beings have endured trauma, PTSD has only been recognized as a formal diagnosis since 1980. However, it was called by different names as early as the American Civil War, when combat veterans were referred to as suffering from "soldier's heart." In World War I, symptoms that were generally consistent with PTSD were referred to as "combat fatigue." Soldiers who developed such symptoms in World War II were said to be suffering from "gross stress reaction," and many who fought in Vietnam who had symptoms of what is now called PTSD were assessed as having "post-Vietnam syndrome." PTSD has also been called "battle fatigue" and "shell shock."
> 
> Complex posttraumatic stress disorder (C-PTSD) usually results from prolonged exposure to a traumatic event or series thereof and is characterized by long-lasting problems with many aspects of emotional and social functioning.


Don't mean to argue, but as far as I know this is not in dispute. Soldiers coming back from Iraq are no different. I could say WTC survivors and others count. It has to be a threat to your very physical existence. Imminent threat of death. This is what I have read. This is what I have heard at conferences.

Also, my DP/DR are from being exceedingly anxious and from a verbally, chronically abusive family. I have had some nightmares. I have chronic DP/DR, etc. But I do not fit the criteria for PTSD and never have. My diagnosis is GAD with chronic DP/DR due to lack of early intervention.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

I think the lines are more blurred than that. Peter Levine wrote books about PTSD and included things I wouldn't even consider to be a trauma - like a bad break up, or having your legs in casts as a baby.

Not saying I agree with either of those, but again I think we are putting way too much emphasis on diagnosis here. Mental illness doesn't fit into neat little boxes like the DSM supposes.


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2009)

Abuse can be perceived as a threat to your very existence when you are a child, it was too me. My parents didn't try to kill me literally but I've had fears that they might want to, I feared my safety, and these fears still haunt me and come back up. I have nightmares about my mother hurting me and the hate and threatening look on her face still. I wake up shaking and terrified.
I don't have the diagnosis of PTSD but I believe that would fit it. The labels do not matter though.


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2009)

Matt210 said:


> I think the lines are more blurred than that. Peter Levine wrote books about PTSD and included things I wouldn't even consider to be a trauma - like a bad break up, or having your legs in casts as a baby.
> 
> Not saying I agree with either of those, but again I think we are putting way too much emphasis on diagnosis here. Mental illness doesn't fit into neat little boxes like the DSM supposes.


I agree, we don't all fit into neat little boxes, but I'm old. 8) I'm 50. I have had DP/DR my whole life. In 1975 I was diagnosed w/anxiety/depression and DP. My diagnosis has only flipped around from DP (which I disagree with) to GAD and Panic w/secondary chronic DP/DR which I definitely agree with.

I am fascinated by dissociation and trauma. I have attended NAMI conventions and PTSD is spoken of BY WAR VETERANS. They are the main attendees of such meetings and are the primary recipients of that diagnosis. It is very clear. But also, rape victims who believe they will die, all disaster victims, can have this as well.

If you look at specific criteria you must meet MINIMUM criteria ... a certain number of things. Interesting is when talking to PTSD victims, many don't mention DP! They may have experienced it DURING THE EVENT, also retrograde amnesia in running from the burning wreckage of the plane (they don't recall running away at all), etc.

I'm only trying to clarify what has finally become (only since 1980) a very legitimate and important diagnosis.

Any diagnostic manual -- for brain disorders or for other medical disorders do put people into categories, or they can't be treated properly.

Some individuals here may have TLE, or complex partial seizures. VERY FEW. However, they may experience DP/DR, etc. That does not mean they have DP/DR that is secondary to an anxiety disorder, bipolar, etc. Each is treated in a different way.

Many go to the ER to be treated for what they think is a heart attack when they are having a panic attack. On occasion a heart attack is MISSED because someone has so many ER visits with panic. Those are two very different illnesses that any ER doctor must recognize and treat properly.

"Labeling" is "diagnosis." Ultimately the DSM will be subsumed under the ICD (International Classification of Disorders) -- mental illnesses are already included there. Accounting for cultural differences, the symptoms occur in the same way worldwide. Children who are in the midst of war or terrorism have PTSD.


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2009)

Spirit, I didn't see your post. If you were literally threatened -- your life threatened that is different. Each case is different and I don't know enough about your past to diagnose you. All I see is many here being diagnosed with PTSD when that does not fit a specific criteria.

We are all unique. But after all these years, despsite dribs and drabs of various other symptoms, I know I have GAD/Panic and DP/DR. True my life was never threatened.

But for example, the gal who cuts my hair. This is so ridiculous. She was in a horrific auto accident. Hit broadside and nearly killed. She had short term PTSD. Could NOT drive a car for about 6 months which was extremely inconvenient for her husband and kids. She had flashbacks of the accident. She didn't like RIDING in cars as a passenger. She underwent "desensitization". She still has nightmares, or startles when she hears crashing noises. The accident was about 4 years ago.

She has a mild, typical case of PTSD. She was diagnosed as such and had short term therapy. No meds, no DP/DR. She would be another "milder" example of a very clear definition of PTSD.

Also, I'm sorry. I don't like Peter Levine. 8) 
And I also may be full of garbage.
Simply IMHO. From reading. From talking with people w/PTSD. And even knowing someone who actually experienced it in an auto accident where she assumed she would die the moment she saw the car coming towards her. MY HUSBAND had DP/DR in a near head on collision, but no PTSD. He didn't start shaking until AFTER he avoided what he thought would be his last minutes on earth. He focused purely on survival and everything else in the world "turned off." "Fight/flight"
Cheers,
D :mrgreen:


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2009)

Well, my parents never said "We are going to kill you etc"...Literally, but I felt scared for my safety and at times feared they wanted me dead and may try to kill me. So the fear is the same whether or not they actually literally threatened it.

LOL, I don't want another diagnosis, I have one, I'm sick of them.. :roll:

Trauma is trauma whatever you call it.

Please don't quote me because I will be deleting all of this later, no doubt, it's in a non private section of the forum...Paranoia.


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

I don't think a person has to be fighting in Iraq for them to feel their life is being threatened. What makes a soldier fighting in war whose life is physically threatened any different from a child who fears their mother/father is going to kill them through physical abuse?


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2009)

I agree Kenny, that's the point I was trying to make. A child in a threatening situation can perceive a war zone with as much fear as a soldier can fighting in a real war, both are being terrorized. It's the sense of _Absolute danger and fear_ that is the same, be it a child or a soldier or whoever......The _Terror_ is the same and it's that fear that comes back up in the dreams and and other situations forcing people relive it again and again.


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2009)

surfingisfun001 said:


> I don't think a person has to be fighting in Iraq for them to feel their life is being threatened. What makes a soldier fighting in war whose life is physically threatened any different from a child who fears their mother/father is going to kill them through physical abuse?


OK, you people are going to drive me wild with this one. LOL. :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Perception IS important. I know I was never loved. My mother threatened sending me away, throwing me out of the house (she did once send me to live with my father for a week which was pretty difficult), etc. My mother said a lot of crazy things. I would yell at her, "I wish you were dead!" We'd have screaming matches and throw things. That is not a happy family. HOWEVER, AT NO TIME DID MY MOTHER LITERALLY HOLD A GUN TO MY HEAD, A LOADED GUN, TIE ME TO A CHAIR, THEN PULL THE TRIGGER, LIKE RUSSIAN ROULETTE.

We are talking about actions that WILL CAUSE THE ACTUAL DEATH OF THE PERSON. In EVERY scenario I am not talking about THREATS, I am talking about literal situations where the individual WILL die potentially, and gets out by chance.

1. If you are in a war, you are guaranteed that you could lose your life. You see friends being killed on a regular basis. You yourself are in harm's way at all times. Your fight/flight response is 100% real in response to a true life event. This is the purest instinct of running from a tiger to avoid being devoured.

2. If you are robbed at gunpoint, or raped at gunpoint, you have the chance you WILL LOSE YOUR LIFE.

You must see the difference here. If you are in a commercial jet that crashes on take-off and you and 10 other people survive while everyone else goes up in flames.... if you are INSIDE the WTC, or on the street running FOR YOUR PHYSICAL LIFE -- the only option is DEATH ... that is 100% instinctual fight or flight.

I'm not quite sure how you can compare the two situations. Both are awful. But they are DIFFERENT. They is a clear difference.
There is no one saying "You might die." You aren't worried that your parents may abandon you. You aren't worried that because you live in a bad neighborhood someone might shoot you or you'll get jumped by a gang. YOU ARE JUMPED BY A GANG AND THEY PUNCH THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS OUT OF YOU.

I will say this once more. I am so adament about this. PTSD is in a different category ... you must read all the criteria ... because it involves the IMMINENT THREAT OF ACTUAL DEATH. The sitation you and others around you are in has a greater chance of your literally dying that NOT. And you generally WITNESS death and violence as it occurs to others, or it happens to you.

One isn't "worse" than the other... take your choice actually ... they are very DIFFERENT! :? 
OK, I give up, end of lecture. :shock: 8)


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2009)

Errr, my surfer friend .... I don't see how you can say that a young man or woman in Iraq is not in a completely different situation. If I had a child, or a husband, or a father, or a brother, or a sister on the front lines in Iraq ... I would be terrified every time the phone rings.

You go to war for one reason ... to defend your country ... to defend yourself ... to defend your life and the lives of those in your platoon or group. You go out every day with a rifle not knowing if you will come back that evening alive. Breathing. And you see others killed and maimed, and not just your allies but your enemies. You watch as you shoot and kill other human beings.

I don't like war. But it is part of human and animal nature. We are territorial. And we fight to the death. You go to Iraq, you do NOT know you are coming home, and you see horrors most of us will never see. You are a part of DEATH.


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2009)

I still disagree, but that's okay as far as I am concerned.

A child can be physically thrown across a room and end up in hospital injured, raped, beaten....That kind of trauma, regulary, could cause PTSD in my opinion, you won't change my mind.


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## FinnG (Nov 25, 2008)

Spirit said:


> I agree Kenny, that's the point I was trying to make. A child in a threatening situation can perceive a war zone with as much fear as a soldier can fighting in a real war, both are being terrorized. It's the sense of _Absolute danger and fear_ that is the same, be it a child or a soldier or whoever......The _Terror_ is the same and it's that fear that comes back up in the dreams and and other situations forcing people relive it again and again.


Exactly!

This I took from the link surfingisfun posted:


> What causes PTSD?
> 
> Virtually any event that is life-threatening *or that severely compromises the emotional well-being *of an individual may cause PTSD. Such events often include either experiencing or witnessing a severe accident or physical injury, receiving a life-threatening medical diagnosis, being the victim of kidnapping or torture, exposure to combat or to a natural disaster, other disaster (for example, plane crash) or terrorist attack, being the victim of rape, mugging, robbery or assault; enduring physical, sexual, emotional or other forms of abuse, as well as involvement in civil conflict.


Also, to add, ptsd can be a result of : bullying and workplace bullying, betrayal, harrassment, witnessing someone be abused (for example, a parent), a physical illness for a young child, a surgery procedure on a child, domestic violence, abusive adult relationships etc.

Again, ptsd needs not be life-threatening. The confusion and misinformation about it, is caused by ptsd having originated as a diagnosis for war-veterans. During the last two/three decades, researchers found that the symptoms of ptsd were also detected in victims of abuse (see above) etc, and broadened the diagnosis, including the violation of and threat to psychological survival.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2009)

You people are going to be the death of me! LOL. And LOL Spirit "I don't need another diagnosis." I hear ya.

Surfing is quoted as quoting a source:


> Virtually any event that is life-threatening or that severely compromises the emotional well-being of an individual may cause PTSD. *Such events often include either experiencing or witnessing a severe accident or physical injury, receiving a life-threatening medical diagnosis, being the victim of kidnapping or torture, exposure to combat or to a natural disaster, other disaster (for example, plane crash) or terrorist attack, being the victim of rape, mugging, robbery or assault; enduring physical, sexual, emotional or other forms of abuse, as well as involvement in civil conflict.*


If you look at this description as stated. The emphasis is on life-threatening violence, extreme violence. The original term came from war, participating in war. Sexual assault refers to rape by a stranger ... a criminal, etc. at knifepoint or the like.

My question to all is ... EDIT; Why is there a separate category WITH AN EMPHASIS ON LIFE THREATENING, NOT PERCEIVED LIFE THREAT, BUT ACTUAL is that the symptomology is generally different from what those of us here are experiencing? Why would it exist as a separate category?

Merck Manual: same stuff


> Posttraumatic stress disorder is recurring, *intrusive recollections of an overwhelming traumatic event. The pathophysiology of the disorder is incompletely understood. Symptoms also include avoidance of stimuli associated with the traumatic event, nightmares, and flashbacks. Diagnosis is based on history. Treatment consists of exposure therapy and drug therapy.*
> 
> When terrible things happen, many people are lastingly affected; in some, the effects are so persistent and severe that they are debilitating and constitute a disorder. Generally, events likely to evoke posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) are those that invoke feelings of fear, helplessness, or horror. *These events might include experiencing serious injury or the threat of death or witnessing others being seriously injured, threatened with death, or actually dying. Combat, sexual assault, and natural or man-made disasters are common causes of PTSD.*
> 
> Lifetime prevalence approaches 8%, with a 12-mo prevalence of about 5%.


Childhood sexual abuse, etc. reflects itself in different symptoms, or invalidating experiences -- and would include Borderline Personality, increased anxiety and depression, DP/DR from hypervigilent sp?! sorry! ... why would this category have patients that have had specifically trauma such as war, plane crashes, civil unrest -- Hurricane Katrina for example, WTC, plane crashes, etc. There is a reason PTSD was placed in a separate category. The symptoms that are PREDOMINANT we don't necessarily have particularly startle responses, rage, irritability. Etc.

My husband just phoned and the irony. He saw a film (foreign from Israel) called "Waltz with Bashir" -- I think, 2008. It is a documentary of the actual experiences of soldiers in war. The descriptions were the same. He noted that one man in order to survive the ordeal of death surrounding him tried to imagine it was a movie -- and a movie ends (and the audience doesn't die). This mind trick did not work when he came upon a giant pile of dead horses killed in battle. A pile. Or in the Holocaust, seeing piles of dead bodies, stacked one on top of each other, etc.

There is a reason PTSD is most associated with war and disaster. I cannot stress this enough. And then I'll shut up. 8)

As I've said, when it was added to the DSM in 1980 it was referencing the syndrome of war veterans going back to the Civil War. At NAMI meetings, the PTSD lectures are attended by war veterans. I have attended said meetings and I DO NOT FIT IN. These individuals do not have childhood traumas. Their symptoms relate SPECIFICALLY to their war experience.

The point of having different diagnoses is to treat the problem in the proper way. Therapy for those with full on PTSD is different for survivors of child abuse. Yes, there could be MINOR, very minor overlaps, but this is a specific condition.

*I just checked "Feeling Unreal" -- only 3% of individuals with PTSD have DPD. (I interpret that as chronic DP as we have it here). Also, fMRIs of two groups, DPers vs. PTSD folk have DIFFERENT results. These are similar stress reactions and yet they are different even when examined in a functional MRI.

I hold fast to my POV at the mo. See page 33 and 115 of Dr. Simeon's book.* :? (See the index for more info on PTSD in her book, I can't remember all the discussions and other studies.)
(But I don't agree with all of the theories in Dr. Simeon's book. I do believe that PTSD is very specific) There is also Acute Stress Disorder which is a shorter term reaction, a "milder version."

I'm tired!
FInally L,
D
And will now remove myself from the conversation. Hearing the President depressed me greatly.

"If you ain't got no philosophy, you ain't got no rules." - Squeaky Fromme sp? :shock:


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## FinnG (Nov 25, 2008)

Look, your point of view is based on what you THINK ptsd is, not what it actually is. You leave out a whole category of the diagnosis (causes), as if it is not valid. I dont understand how you can put your opinion above a diagnosis, that has been researched and developed by scientists, psychiatrists, therapists, you name it, for at least 3 decades, I think thats arrogant. And a denial of reality and fact. I suggest you look into what the causes are of ptsd as I have given them to you, there is a huge amount of information availble on the internet, if not, in many a book about this subject. Good luck with that!


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2009)

OMG, I was obsessed with this last night. In "Feeling Unreal" it is even more clear.

*Personal trauma, more "intimate" one-on-one trauma -- abuse at home -- it is generally personal, insidious, involving parent and child/perpetrator and child, etc. -- the result: DISSOCIATIVE DISORDERS*
The worst being DID
Fugue
Amnesia
DP/DR

*Trauma on a grand scale involving MANY people -- war, plane crash, criminal assault that is life threatening -- the result: STRESS DISORDERS*
The worst being PTSD
"mild form" Acute Stress Disorder
*Part of this involves "SURVIVOR'S GUILT" -- which refers to one who survives a major disaster when others didn't.

Well, I learned something. My GOD, I couldn't sleep until I understood that. Done :mrgreen:


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2009)

> can see that, however, your point of view is based on partial information that you stick to despite having been told by me and a couple of others, your assessment is partially wrong. I get the feeling reading your posts, that you care more about needing to be right, than learning about what ptsd really is (and not what you think it is). I find it quite arrogant you put your opinion of what you think it is ABOVE what ptsd actually is, researched and developed by scientists, therapists, psychiatrists etc through at least 30 years. I suggest you look into child sexual abuse and ptsd, to come to a correct assessment of what ptsd is.


I am not being arrogant, I am fascinated by this and looking for clarity. We posted at the same time. I have read Feeling Unreal and it was discussed in that book in numerous places. I have been studying this a long time. Merely because I'm facscinated.

What trouble me is self-diagnosis and misdiagnosis by doctors. As I said, I am 50 and have DP most of my life. There was no internet to discuss all of this until I was around 40 or so, so the world opened up in seeing I wasn't the only person in the world with this. I have seen science change over the years, and the DSM. But in history, what has never changed is PTSD, or its various definitions and its definition holding to individuals suffering major disasters.

I am someone who like to clarify things for myself.

Your humble Dreamer.
I mean no harm. I seek to understand things.
Cheers,
D
EDIT: Not partial information. I have been studying mental health for years. I am not defending myself, but I call myself a mental health advocate -- my goal being to de-stigmatize mental illness. THAT is a battle. Education, information, meeting other mentally ill people has taught me a lot.
AND I ADMIT WHEN I FIND I AM WRONG.
I this case, I can be fairly certain I am correct. I am supported by Daphne Simeon's work and those of DD researchers.
This is a question of how our MEMORIES deal with trauma, and there are different types of trauma.


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## FinnG (Nov 25, 2008)

Dreamer* said:


> But in history, what has never changed is PTSD, or its various definitions and its definition holding to individuals suffering major disasters.
> I this case, I can be fairly certain I am correct.


That individuals suffer ptsd from major disasters is correct. However, as I said before , this only partially covers what causes ptsd. Now, look it up on the net and educate yourself on it, so you have the correct info when you're talking about.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2009)

Oh God..We are all entitled to our points of view, it doesn't really matter who is wrong or right. i can't honestly say with 100 percent clarity that my opinion was correct, it's just what I think.....We will all hold to our opinions for what little they are really worth at the end of the day.

Diagnosis's = boxes....I am so sick of em, yep. I've had them all I think bar schizophrenia, they kept changing mine until we came full circle again, 6 years that took...no more!


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## FinnG (Nov 25, 2008)

Spirit said:


> Oh God..We are all entitled to our points of view, it doesn't really matter who is wrong or right. i can't honestly say with 100 percent clarity that my opinion was correct, it's just what I think.....We will all hold to our opinions for what little they are really worth at the end of the day.
> 
> Diagnosis's = boxes....I am so sick of em, yep. I've had them all I think bar schizophrenia, they kept changing mine until we came full circle again, 6 years that took...no more!


 I read here people want to be understood about their dp/dr, there is a lot of complaints about therapsist, psychiatrists, mental health workers not knowing what dp/dr is and people say they need that kinda understanding and would like to be diagnosed, find in themselves confusion if what they experience is dp/dr and are looking for information and answers.
Then I read Dreamer is a mental health advocate, who is having problems with doctors and therapist etc not knowing anyhting about dp/dr, gets pissed off about the ignorance of doctors, and wants to educate people about it. Then when I tell Dreamer her understanding of ptsd is insufficient and incomplete, I get resisted and be told she sticks to her opinion. So, she wants to be understood by doctors etc concerning dp/dr, yet when she is confronted with new (for her) information on ptsd, she resists and refuses to even look at it and understand it. Doesnt make sense, does it? She does the same what she accuses those doctors of. Take care all.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2009)

FinnG said:


> I read here people want to be understood about their dp/dr, there is a lot of complaints about therapsist, psychiatrists, mental health workers not knowing what dp/dr is and people say they need that kinda understanding and would like to be diagnosed, find in themselves confusion if what they experience is dp/dr and are looking for information and answers.
> Then I read Dreamer is a mental health advocate, who is having problems with doctors and therapist etc not knowing anyhting about dp/dr, gets pissed off about the ignorance of doctors, and wants to educate people about it. Then when I tell Dreamer her understanding of ptsd is insufficient and incomplete, I get resisted and be told she sticks to her opinion. So, she wants to be understood by doctors etc concerning dp/dr, yet when she is confronted with new (for her) information on ptsd, she resists and refuses to even look at it and understand it. Doesnt make sense, does it? She does the same what she accuses those doctors of. Take care all.


I hear what you're saying and I do admire your stance and conviction. My opinion is the same as your own, I'm not disagreeing with you. I am strong enough in my own belief to just leave it that that, arguing it out on an internet forum isn't actually going to make much difference to anything. There are no mental health professionals here. 
A while back there was a debate about DID on here with all sorts of suggestions from Dreamer herself(No offense Dreamer this is just in the spirit of debate...) that it is merely brainwashing that causes it, that because she could not understand how it worked, she couldn't fully validate its existence. I then thought that is the same kind of ignorance that people who have Dp,d have to face, doctors do not understand Dp,d and some therefore discount its existence ...It doesn't make sense, no, I agree! 
ALL mental illnesses get this kind of ignorance at some point, not just Dp,d, and this debate just proves it. People who themselves are experiencing the "illnesses"... know the reality and that is what is important.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2009)

Oh, my, not good being the topic of discussion. And by the way, though ya'll may think I'm a witch, I hurt as well. My goal in clarifying this is motivated in the same way by the posts that occur over and over here re: is "Do I have schizophrenia?" and people making generalizations about that illness. There is a new thread on that.

What I don't understand is, I have cited many examples, sources of where I have gotten my information. And Spirit you know I said DID exists, I don't understand it, and there is also ample proof of manipulation of memory in many people -- as noted, certain individuals confess to murders they didn't committ when coached enough by a police officer. And yes, I have read a lot about false memory syndrome, I didn't come up with it. I also cited many sources defending my POV. I am not pulling these concepts out of thin air, and I know you know that, I don't think Finn does.

What is fascinating is all of this stuff has to do with memory, which is very complex to understand.

However, one last question, in the spirit of discussion, not argument. Though I have even cited Dr. Simeon's book, "Feeling Unreal" -- and the woman is our US expert on DP where it is stated that the individuals in her study do not have PTSD and that PTSD is not DPD, that no one checks my source, or discusses it? There is something called Complex PTSD which would indicate chronic trauma, but by what is described it would be on the level of torture, or of children living in Africa who have no family as everyone has died of AIDS.

As I understand from my research, chronic childhood abuse would result in DISSOCIATIVE DISORDERS, which is what is discussed here.

I am not saying that chronic child abuse, or sexual abuse is NOT HORRIFIC or real, I am saying, BY DEFINITION, PTSD refers pretty specifically to disastrous events. Helplines for this listed in the article below go to Military Support Hotlines! I am not making this up! Also, on Letterman last night, the flight crew that landed the plane on the Hudson river in NYC. All mentioned PTSD symptoms, including the captain. One flight attendant said she isn't ready to fly right now and may not any more and has worked as an attendant for 25+ years. All were seasoned professionals of many years.

*Finn, you told me to go on the Internet. I was researching books so again, I go to the internet and I will also look this up on PubMed:*

http://www.medicinenet.com/posttraumati ... rticle.htm

*What is posttraumatic stress disorder?*

Posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is an emotional illness that develops as a result of a terribly frightening, life-threatening, or otherwise highly unsafe experience. PTSD sufferers re-experience the traumatic event or events in some way, tend to avoid places, people, or other things that remind them of the event (avoidance), and are exquisitely sensitive to normal life experiences (hyperarousal).

Although this condition has likely existed since human beings have endured trauma, PTSD has only been recognized as a formal diagnosis since 1980. However, it was called by different names as early as the American Civil War, when combat veterans were referred to as suffering from "soldier's heart." In World War I, symptoms that were generally consistent with PTSD were referred to as "combat fatigue." Soldiers who developed such symptoms in World War II were said to be suffering from "gross stress reaction," and many who fought in Vietnam who had symptoms of what is now called PTSD were assessed as having "post-Vietnam syndrome."

PTSD has also been called "battle fatigue" and "shell shock."

* Complex posttraumatic stress disorder (C-PTSD) usually results from prolonged exposure to a traumatic event or series thereof and is characterized by long-lasting problems with many aspects of emotional and social functioning.*

Approximately 7%-8% of people in the United States will likely develop PTSD in their lifetime, with the lifetime occurrence (prevalence) in combat veterans and rape victims ranging from 10% to as high as 30%.

Somewhat higher rates of this disorder have been found to occur in African Americans, Hispanics, and Native Americans compared to Caucasians in the United States. Some of that difference is thought to be due to higher rates of dissociation soon before and after the traumatic event (peritraumatic); a tendency for individuals from minority ethnic groups to blame themselves, have less social support, and an increased perception of racism for those ethnic groups; as well as differences between how ethnic groups may express distress. Other important facts about PTSD include the estimate of 5 million people who suffer from PTSD at any one time in the United States and the fact that women are twice as likely to develop PTSD as men.

*Disaster Survivors Face PTSD Risk
Medical Author: Melissa Conrad St?ppler, MD
Medical Editor: William C. Shiel Jr., MD, FACP, FACR*

Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a psychiatric condition that can develop following any traumatic, catastrophic life experience. Recognition of this condition increased dramatically following the war in Viet Nam, when many returning U.S. veterans developed disturbing psychological symptoms and impaired functioning. More recently, the 9/11 tragedy, the Asian tsunami, the London bombings, and Hurricane Katrina and its aftermath have left thousands of people at risk for this potentially debilitating condition.

PTSD symptoms can develop weeks or months, or sometimes even years, following a catastrophic event. Along with survivors of natural disasters, wars, and acts of terrorism, people who have been the victims of violent crime or torture often develop symptoms of PTSD.
PTSD symptoms vary among individuals and also vary in severity from mild to disabling. PTSD Symptoms can include one or more of the following:

*"flashbacks" about the traumatic event
feelings of estrangement or detachment
nightmares
sleep disturbances
impaired functioning
occupational instability
memory disturbances
family discord
parenting or marital difficulties*

--------------------
If I present this information, and refer you to books that distinguish stress disorders from dissociative disorders, why am I called arrogant? I really don't understand. And yes to be honest, it feels hurtful, but I'll get over it.

I try to post about things I've learned. You are entitled to DISagree. Spirit and I don't agree over everything, but I am trying to learn about things I don't understand. I see few if any posts here that cite actual articles, studies, and most specifically Dr. Simeon's work in "Feeling Unreal."

I'm sorry I responded to this post. It was not with intention of hurting anyone.

No harm intended.
Spirit I never said DID/MPD was "brainwashing", but I am concerned of cases where doctors have been sued for creating false memories. I do not understand what is happening with someone w/DID ... but it again has to do with memory and how messing with memory is never a good idea, i.e. being "gaslighted" by one's parents as I was and you were. I said I don't understand. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Something I dont understand is that in India people have "hysterical blindness." That is not seen in the West. Why? I would like to understand? I can't give you the answer but it is something I'd like to research.

And though I was never sexually abused I know two women who were. Neither has PTSD. Both have/had dissociative problems.
I do try to inform myself. I don't intend to come off as arrogant. Forgive.
Seriously, I don't consider myself a *itch. I really don't

Well out of town again. Cheers all. Behave yourselves. 8) 
L,
D the old crab :mrgreen:


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2009)

Spirit said:


> ALL mental illnesses get this kind of ignorance at some point, not just Dp,d, and this debate just proves it. People who themselves are experiencing the "illnesses"... know the reality and that is what is important.


And I'll drink to that. Perhaps that all that matters.
And I hope everyone here gets the help they need, and that one day there is no stigma for having any illness. ANY.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2009)

I think people tend to blow things up out of all proportions, I certainly do not think that you are a witch or anything like it! LOL. I also never personally called you arrogant.

If you hadn't already entered the conversation earlier on I wouldn't have mentioned you either, I wasn't meaning to make anybody a topic of discussion, sorry if it came across that way. I knew you would come back and reply.. :mrgreen:

See, still we will all hold to our own opinions, but like yourself I am willing to change mine if I am wrong. I don't think things are always so black or white. I think there can be variants of all mental illnesses and sometimes we can have the traits of disorders but not the full blown disorder... Besides, I don't even have PTSD, I have a dissociative disorder...And now I'm outa this thread. :arrow:


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## hurricane12 (May 22, 2008)

surfingisfun001 said:


> here is a quote from the above link
> 
> 
> > Symptoms of PTSD that tend to be associated with C-PTSD include: problems regulating feelings, which can result in suicidal thoughts, explosive anger, or passive aggressive behaviors; a tendency to forget the trauma or feel detached from one's life (dissociation) or body (depersonalization); persistent feelings of helplessness, shame, guilt or being completely different from others; feeling the perpetrator of trauma is all-powerful and preoccupation with either revenge against or allegiance with the perpetrator; and severe change in those things that give the sufferer meaning, like a loss of spiritual faith or an ongoing sense of helplessness, hopelessness, or despair.
> ...


wow i just related to everything that was said there


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## hurricane12 (May 22, 2008)

Dreamer* said:


> *Folks, ya'll have to remember that you can't self-diagnose or "guess" what you have. As someone said a professional (and I've run into a great many of those who are idiots, sigh) diagnosis is most critical to the proper treatment. Also, no one here is an expert in anything other than his/her own experience.)*
> 
> Also, I'll say this for the millionth time (though I don't mind) 8) PTSD is a very specific disorder: the KEY part to PT is having experienced a LIFE-THTREATENING event ... and (I'm cutting this to the bare bones here) the best example of this would be serving on the front lines in Iraq. PTSD is most commonly associated with war veterans and has been called everything from "shell-shock" -- WWI -- to "battle fatigue" -- Korea? -- to PTSD.
> 
> ...


a fight could be considered traumatic.
even though while it happened i really didnt feel fear or any emotion which was kind of weird.
ill just wait for my appointment with the pyschiatrist to see what they say


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2009)

I should really get outta' Dodge and now we have a snowstorm, so I look here and can't help posting, LOL. :?

I must say. Being in a fight -- a good old guys' brawl -- is not life threatening. More than likely there is no intent on anyone's part to kill anyone else, just to be "alpha male", LOL. The problem here I think is in using the word "trauma" in too many different contexts, and its having various meanings.

Of course, child abuse is trauma. But for the last time I will say, if you think of PTSD as the result of being in a natural disaster -- example, yet ANOTHER plane crash we had in Buffalo, and I think there was one in England recently. OK ... I am just saying ... the SPECIFIC DIAGNOSIS of PTSD in theory should be applied to only example: survivors of a disaster. A plane crash is a perfect example. Something goes wrong with the plane, very wrong. There is fire inside the cabin say. You hear bumps and explosions.

That is an immediate threat to your life. You could very well die, literally physically die. Your reaction is shock and disbelief and perhaps some have time to prepare to die with prayer or notes to family (Flight 93 -- one of the WTC planes that crashed in Pennsylvania). You assume you will be physically DEAD. No choices. Then YOU SURVIVE. The aftermath of that particularly, psychologically is generally PTSD. That is what the term was coined for.

Of course diagnoses overlap. And people could have more than ONE diagnosis.

I'm simply saying, is I've found that psychiatrists, therapists, etc. misuse the term, or use it very loosely.

It is a matter of clear definition of the word trauma (TYPE OF TRAUMA) and resulting symptoms.

OK, I am now finished.
4 inches of snow on the car. And the economy is about to collapse.

Happy Valentine's Day anyway. 
If you are in a fight where you are attacked by a gang, with guns, they shoot you, and leave you for dead, then kick you senseless, THAT might cause PTSD ... but not in everyone. A key factor, flashbacks and avoidance. People in plane crashes usually don't like to ever get back in a plane, even when they have flown for years. As noted, even professional pilots who have been in near-death crashes, especially where there have been deaths, are leery of getting back into the air. That is part of PTSD. Also, nightmares about the event, or even amnesia about the escape. And survivor's guilt.

Also, as noted, DP is experienced in @3% of PTSD survivors, and I think when it is experienced is generally during and soon after the event ... it is not the PRIMARY SYMPTOM OR COMPLAINT. When the diagnosis says "feeling estranged or detached from others" -- the reference is the individuals becomes socially aloof. Again, misinterpretation of words. They become easily startled, full of rage, cannot have conversations -- they retreat into isolation. But not into DP. That would be as I understand it, the true diagnoses of PTSD. And I believe C-PTSD would be akin to a Holocausts survivor, who has been tortured over a period of time. I saw "Sophie's Choice" last night for the first time in years. Good example of PTSD.

Very different from a fight! Sigh. I'm done. Again, Happy VD. :mrgreen: :arrow:


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2009)

Dreamer* said:


> If you are in a fight where you are attacked by a gang, with guns, they shoot you, and leave you for dead, then kick you senseless, THAT might cause PTSD ... but not in everyone. A key factor, flashbacks and avoidance. People in plane crashes usually don't like to ever get back in a plane, even when they have flown for years. As noted, even professional pilots who have been in near-death crashes, especially where there have been deaths, are leery of getting back into the air. That is part of PTSD. Also, nightmares about the event, or even amnesia about the escape. *And survivor's guilt.*


Now you mention it I just remembered something. When I had Dp,d, I took a Taxi one day, the driver was very nice and I was telling him about my then depression and Dp,d. He told me that several years back he was at a football match where there was a massive fire, many people were killed etc..... ...He continued to tell me of the guilt that he carried daily for surviving it because he had to get out while people were being trampled to death and burned. He tried to help some of them but because he had to save his own life he couldn't rescue very many people...I believe that would be the type of ptsd you're talking about. I still don't know, I think there can be instances of child abuse that can be life threatening.....I'm not sure if that's the same as fearing for your life even though noone has said they're gonna kill you or there's no direct threat...but you fear it's just a possibility, I don't know but it's becoming a bit clearer now.


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## FinnG (Nov 25, 2008)

Oh gosh. Again, ptsd need not be the result of a lifethreatening experience or trauma. Can you just look abit further than your own idea and knowledge of what can cause this, Dreamer. Bullying can cause it. Is this lifethreatening? No. Look it up at bullyonline.org (I believe is the site name). Also, rape is not by definiton lifethreatening (unless the victim is threatened with a gun or knife, sure). Continuous emotional abuse can lead to ptsd. Is it life-threatening by definition? No.
I dont understand what you dont understand about this Dreamer. The defintion of ptsd clearly says it is caused by a life-theratening event OR otherwise highly unsafe experience. The otherwise highly unsafe experience can be anything non-life-threatening, for example, being bullied, being turtored etc. People in a cult can experience ptsd because of being brainwashed.
It's really annoying, and yes, arrogant (and arrogant in the sense you wnat to be right over what has been established and carefully researched for over decades and you dismissing this information and also then all the people that have been diagnosed with ptsd as a result of non-lifethreatening experiences, that's arrogant, as if you know better than all these researches).
I dont know what else to say, thats why initially I didnt get back to this topic, you dont want to hear you are partially wrong and want to push your own reality as being the truth. It isn't. Educate yourself. I find it a concern you being a mental health advocate, claiming to know this disorder, while you dont.
And then saying to someone who thinks they might have ptsd from a fight, which can happen, that this cannot cause ptsd. Who are you to suggest this cant be the case? Are you a mental health professional? That astounds me, and that is, again, arrogant. The info you are writing down is only one side to the ptsd story, and if you keep only that side (the life-threatening part) as being the only true definiton, then you are dissing out misinformation.

I can post over a 100 links to show the exact info on ptsd. But Im not gonna do it. Firstly, I can't post links, secondly, I dont see the use of giving this informationa and do all this work if you are gonna disregard it anyway, as youve done in this entire thread.

Did you know, that most men that suffer ptsd is from having been raped? Not even combat soldiers, no, men raped (65% against 35 % respectively). Have all the raped men been threatend with death? No. In fact, number one factor of ptsd was the immense humilation of the experience of being raped. Added, the betrayal of the belief this is safe world, added, the lack of power to do anything to make the rape stop. These are all psychological distressing and traumatic feelings that leads to ptsd. Nothing to do with any threats of death, physical death.
For women, it's the same, more women report ptsd from being raped then from being threatened with a deadly weapon.

Now, you wanna dismiss this too? Go right ahead. I think Im done now. Take care all


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2009)

FinnG said:


> Also, rape is not by definiton lifethreatening (unless the victim is threatened with a gun or knife, sure). Continuous emotional abuse can lead to ptsd. Is it life-threatening by definition? No.
> I dont understand what you dont understand about this Dreamer. The defintion of ptsd clearly says it is caused by a life-theratening event OR otherwise highly unsafe experience. The otherwise highly unsafe experience can be anything non-life-threatening, for example, being bullied, being turtored etc. People in a cult can experience ptsd because of being brainwashed.


Good point. Also, I'm a member of an internet sire that deals with dissociative disorders and ptsd. I was just reading through some of their information and it clearly says that long term emotional and mental abuse and child abuse can cause ptsd. There are hundreds of people there diagnosed with ptsd through being raped or abused..etc...There aren't too many ex-soldiers there though..

I think if anyone, yourself included Dreamer, want to disagree with thousands of qualified psychiatrists official diagnosis's then you have quite a battle on your hands. And please, don't accuse me of discussing you or bringing you into the conversation again, when you was already in it. Thank you.

The term mental health advocate doesn't denote somebody who argues or disagrees with peoples diagnosis's or mental health professionals. I think you partly use it to meet your own ends, to fight your own battle.

Sorry, but I'm fed up of tiptoeing around and censoring my opinion incase I offend or upset you, that's just really not my deal if I'm honest.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2009)

> Did you know, that most men that suffer ptsd is from having been raped?


I would be curious re: a link to that statistic. That is something I have not come across.

Firstly, I said rape is considered part of PTSD. A man or woman can be raped. When did I say only women are raped? It is more likely however that women are raped randomly by strangers. Men raped in prison are in a different situation. I would say, and I may be wrong, that it would be less likely for any man to be raped on the street (out of a prison setting) -- i.e. held at knife point and raped by a stranger. This is what I mean by rape -- not sexual abuse as a child. Two different things.

I think this is all a misunderstanding of definitions. Spirit has the correct concept right now -- that taxi driver had PTSD. I'm not sure why this concept isn't clear at this point. I HAVE looked on the internet, and I have also read books -- many -- on various forms of trauma as I had years of emotional trauma and abuse.



> highly unsafe experience


 is self-explanatory. UNSAFE would mean one's very physical well-being is at stake, again life or death. Imminent life or death situation. Being molested over time is "unsafe" emotionally, but unsafe would indicate unsafe in terms of survival.

I wish you could hear Captain Sullenberger, "Sully", the captain of the plane that landed in the Hudson river, and his crew talk about PTSD. It was one time in his LONG experience as a pilot where he felt this was the worst situation in his career. He felt there was no way to survive. Yet he went into "fight/flight" mode and did EVERYTHING he could in MINUTES to save the plane.

EDIT: Also, that OTHER plane landed on a house. I believe a wife and daughter survived, and the husband in the house was killed. The mother and daughter no doubt already are experiencing symptoms of PTSD or will in the near future. All 49 aboard were killed. Had one survived that individual would have PTSD... I imagine!

As I said before, and as I said in Dr. Simeon's book "Feeling Unreal", she doesn't equate a SUDDEN LIFE-THREATENING trauma with chronic abuse. The simple concept of "survivor's guilt" as Spirit noted is suffered by many who have SURVIVED a catastrophe when their fellow soldiers, family, friends did not. It would seem that chronic abuse indeed results in dissociative disorders, borderline personality, depression, anxiety, etc.

If you visit http://www.nami.org and look at PTSD, again, you will see it is in reference to war veterans in particular. As I said, I have attended lectures at NAMI conferences attended by veterans with PTSD. Those in those meetings were not individuals who had been bullied or sexually traumatized by a family member over time, or even a young boy sexually abused by a priest (if that is what you are referring to.)

This is all a matter of miscommunication. I don't know what else to say. I can look up some journal articles on PubMed.

I am talking about something VERY specific. If you look at the diagnostic criteria of PTSD the list of what WE suffer (those who have had child abuse -- and I include myself) does not result in the symptoms of PTSD if you read all the criteria. I fit the symptoms of Dissociation.  DP is a dissociative disorder. PTSD is a "stress disorder."

I can't go on explaining this.

It doesn't matter at this point if we disagree.

You can believe I'm wrong. And I may be full of shit, but I don't think so. Spirit's description of the taxi-driver's survivor's guilt ... I'm not sure how that would fit into childhood abuse, or bullying. Why would the victim of childhood sexual abuse or bullying have "surivor's guilt" referring specifically to asking one's self, "Why did I survive that plane crash, or not get killed in the WTC disaster, when my friend/co-worker/spouse/child was burnt to death." Very different situations.

Both traumatic, but different types of trauma.
No more reason to discuss this. You have every right to disagree with me. I guess I have not conveyed a convincing argument.
What can I say?
This has kept me from taking a nap, which is a good thing. 8)

No need to beat a dead horse. But a true threat to one's life, is different from a PERCEIVED threat to one's life. The resulting psychological symptoms are different, and they need to be handled differently.

Peace,
D


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## FinnG (Nov 25, 2008)

Spirit said:


> FinnG said:
> 
> 
> > Also, rape is not by definiton lifethreatening (unless the victim is threatened with a gun or knife, sure). Continuous emotional abuse can lead to ptsd. Is it life-threatening by definition? No.
> ...


Spirit, yes. It are the symptoms that are the same in ptsd, whether from combat (which can be lifethreatening, depending on whether the soldier is in active combat or does have a non-combat position), from rape, from sexual abuse, sexual assault, life-threatening disasters, being bullied, living in an emotionally.mentally threatening environment (like growing up in an abusive family) etc, you name it. Even a deeply humiliating and upsetting life experience can cause ptsd. It are the symptoms that manifest that are ptsd, the cause doesn't even matter (well, it does, because it's traumatizing and that's bad), but it are the symptoms that decide people get this diagnosis. This is why I quoted you in another post, because you grasp the underlying emotional set of responses/results from being abused etc.: overwhelming fear and terror-->> that's what it's all about. Take care.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2009)

Dreamer* said:


> Firstly, I said rape is considered part of PTSD. A man or woman can be raped. When did I say only women are raped? It is more likely however that women are raped randomly by strangers. Men raped in prison are in a different situation. I would say, and I may be wrong, that it would be less likely for any man to be raped on the street (out of a prison setting) -- i.e. held at knife point and raped by a stranger. This is what I mean by rape -- not sexual abuse as a child. Two different things.
> 
> I think this is all a misunderstanding of definitions. Spirit has the correct concept right now -- that taxi driver had PTSD. I'm not sure why this concept isn't clear at this point. I HAVE looked on the internet, and I have also read books -- many -- on various forms of trauma as I had years of emotional trauma and abuse.rnal articles on PubMed.


Oh no, I still think I disagree. You say that being raped at knife point and child abuse are two very different things, I really very much disagree with you here. It all depends on the context and setting of the child abuse. You are getting such a lot of resistance Dreamer because you are flatly just invalidating peoples experiences without having lived through them.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2009)

> pirit, yes. It are the symptoms that are the same in ptsd, whether from combat (which can be lifethreatening, depending on whether the soldier is in active combat or does have a non-combat position), from rape, from sexual abuse, sexual assault, life-threatening disasters, being bullied, living in an emotionally.mentally threatening environment (like growing up in an abusive family) etc, you name it. Even a deeply humiliating and upsetting life experience can cause ptsd. It are the symptoms that manifest that are ptsd, the cause doesn't even matter (well, it does, because it's traumatizing and that's bad), but it are the symptoms that decide people get this diagnosis. This is why I quoted you in another post, because you grasp the underlying emotional set of responses/results from being abused etc.: overwhelming fear and terror-->> that's what it's all about. Take care.


We posted simultaneously. Now I'm confused LOL. Because what you have just said contradicts what you was saying before.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2009)

> I think if anyone, yourself included Dreamer, want to disagree with thousands of qualified psychiatrists official diagnosis's then you have quite a battle on your hands. And please, don't accuse me of discussing you or bringing you into the conversation again, when you was already in it. Thank you.
> 
> The term mental health advocate doesn't denote somebody who argues or disagrees with peoples diagnosis's or mental health professionals. I think you partly use it to meet your own ends, to fight your own battle.
> 
> Sorry, but I'm fed up of tiptoeing around and censoring my opinion incase I offend or upset you, that's just really not my deal if I'm honest


Spirit you don't need to tiptoe around anything. I'm just saying that even though I have experience meeting many mentally ill people I don't claim to be a physican. However we do know that many mental health professionals have no clue what DP/DR are.

We posted at the same time. I'm only giving you a direct, succinct definition of what is termed PTSD per the DSM-IV. That is not the be all and end all of definitions.

I use the term mental health advocate mainly to help dispel the stigma of mental illness and much of it comes from the public having very poor understanding of what certain illnesses are. Schizophrenia is still believed to be "split personality" which is believed to be MPD which is thought to be something amusing that is now a comedy on television.

And often I hear self-diagnosis here and other places. I feel pretty certain that the SPECIFIC diagnosis of PTSD stands as I have described it. I used to have recurring nightmares of fighting with my mother. Screaming, where my husband would have to wake me up. That is one symptom of PTSD, but I don't have PTSD. These things overlap.

I'm sorry, I am interested in the topic. I see no reason why it can't be discussed.

All of my psychiatrists over the years -- they have never diagnosed me as PTSD. And I have asked my current ACSW if PTSD would be the proper diagnosis for chronic sexual abuse and she said no. I have never, since 1975 received that diagnosis. I believe since it was added to the DSM in 1980 that doctors seized upon it and use it out of context. That infuriates me. Not my own doctors, but the doctors of others, HERE, who have a dissociative disorder and are told they have every thing BUT that, even including schizophrenia.

A mental health advocate tries to educate, and I call myself a "stigma buster" is all.

You don't have to tiptoe. I'm just saying, people here seem to think I am especially "tough" -- I am not. Not at all. And it comes from my past. I am making lemonade out of the lemons that were dealt me.

If I am proven wrong about a very specific term, PTSD, then so be it. I am using it in a VERY, VERY, VERY limited context -- the given definition that has been agreed upon by the ICD and those who treat those with PTSD that came about by catastrophic events. And these are generally veterans, many who commit suicide.

No harm intended.
And I don't know why you feel you need to tiptoe. I can still feel lousy sometimes and get over it.
Cheers,
D 8)

Woah, we keep posting at the same time and this didn't get posted.
I am talking about something VERY specific. Haven't read your thing as mine didn't get posted! :shock: I hate the internet. It is SO impersonal.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2009)

And now I'm completely confused, LOL.
Ah well. On to other stuff.
Cheers at any rate. Definitions, semantics. Sigh. :?

Spirit, you don't need to apologize to me! :mrgreen: I just want to be acknowledged as being damaged. And some people somehow don't see that. We here have our own crosses to bear. Doesn't mean we can't discuss other stuff.

Meantime, I'm not hurt by you or Finn or anyone else in the post.
And I swear I'm not a *itch. I need a late lunch! Starving! :shock:


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## FinnG (Nov 25, 2008)

Spirit said:


> > pirit, yes. It are the symptoms that are the same in ptsd, whether from combat (which can be lifethreatening, depending on whether the soldier is in active combat or does have a non-combat position), from rape, from sexual abuse, sexual assault, life-threatening disasters, being bullied, living in an emotionally.mentally threatening environment (like growing up in an abusive family) etc, you name it. Even a deeply humiliating and upsetting life experience can cause ptsd. It are the symptoms that manifest that are ptsd, the cause doesn't even matter (well, it does, because it's traumatizing and that's bad), but it are the symptoms that decide people get this diagnosis. This is why I quoted you in another post, because you grasp the underlying emotional set of responses/results from being abused etc.: overwhelming fear and terror-->> that's what it's all about. Take care.
> 
> 
> We posted simultaneously. Now I'm confused LOL. Because what you have just said contradicts what you was saying before.


Okay, maybe I havent expressed myself clearly before, but what I say in the quote, is what unites the life-threatening and non-lifethreatening experiences people have diagnosed with ptsd. Overwhelming fear and terror is at the root of ptsd, whatever the cause. This is why I keep saying ptsd is not only caused by lifethreatening experiences, also non-lifethreatening experiences. Or isnt this what you are confused about? :lol:


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2009)

Ah SPirit, I'm NOT invalidating peoples' experiences. I am clarifying the definition of PTSD vs. Dissociation. Why would I do that?

As I said, I know two women (personally) who were sexually abused. One ... lived a horrendous life. She was never diagnosed with PTSD ... neither were. One had borderline, self-harm, DP/DR. The other ... she won't talk about it. She doesn't have a man in her life. She was molested by her older brother. She cannot interact with men at all. She has no children, etc.

Different from the woman in the house with survivor's guilt ... "Why did I survive, and my husband die?" etc.

I've been to PTSD meetings, and I don't fit in. At all. I go to borderline, dissociation, and I do.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2009)

And now I'm :lol: as we are ALL talking about different things and posting at the same time. We need to sit down over coffee and talk to people who have experienced all of these things. Again, the internet is far too impersonal. But this is fascinating to me. And no, I do not invalidate anyone's experiences, nor am I denying the damage I have. I'm actually back in therapy, trying one more time to not feel like crap on a daily basis -- feeling worthless.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2009)

Okay no more tip toeing. 8) Although maybe a bit or I WILL get in trouble LOL I don't want to offend is all, guess I can be black or white still sometimes.

Regarding Survivors guilt in childhood abuse, I think it's possible. Guilt is a big part of being abused and also wanting to either repair/have fusion or either get revenge on said abuser, a symptom I'm sure I read above in the ptsd description of symptoms, are both big symptoms after being abused. Sometimes survivors of childhood sexual abuse feel guilty for not saying anything because they have a sibling who is also abused and they feel if they had spoken out they could have saved their sibling, that's one example. But if we were to go on and try to completely break all this down and pull apart every definition such as -Survivors guilt- we could be here forever. I'm sure it's pointless anyway and I'm sure there's some gray area in here somewhere as always.

LOL FinnG, I agree with you, that was what I was trying to say.* That the symptoms of pstd are the same whether it was caused by a life threatening event or non life threatening event. And because it is the symptoms that create the diagnosis how can someone say that there must be a life threatening event to receive the diagnosis?* It sounds contradictory.

I'm :lol: too because every time I try to post this, it says a new reply has been posted!


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2009)

Dreamer* said:


> Again, the internet is far too impersonal. But this is fascinating to me. And no, I do not invalidate anyone's experiences, nor am I denying the damage I have. I'm actually back in therapy, trying one more time to not feel like crap on a daily basis -- feeling worthless.


That's why I tiptoe. :wink: That's what happens when I don't. I'm sorry you feel that way Dreamer.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2009)

OK, 20 of 720 journal articles in PubMed on PTSD. Look closely at the causes. Ooooo I'm wicked. I'm just trying to make a point of DEFINITION.
Life threatening is the key. Dying of AIDS, Katrina, Rwandan genocide observed by children, veterans, different brain scans in PTSD vs. Dissociative disorders ... I don't know what else I can post..... go to PubMed and plug in PTSD and this is what you'll get.... ENDLESS articles.

*1: Corticosteroid insufficiency in the critically ill : Pathomechanisms and recommendations for diagnosis and treatment.]*
Briegel J, Vogeser M, Keh D, Marik P.
Anaesthesist. 2009 Feb 13. [Epub ahead of print] German.
PMID: 19214457 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

2:
*Impact of sleep disturbances on PTSD symptoms and perceived health.*
Belleville G, Guay S, Marchand A.
J Nerv Ment Dis. 2009 Feb;197(2):126-32.
PMID: 19214048 [PubMed - in process]

3:
The prevalence of conversion symptoms in women from a general Turkish population.
Sar V, Aky?z G, Dogan O, Ozt? E.
Psychosomatics. 2009 Jan-Feb;50(1):50-8.
PMID: 19213973 [PubMed - in process]

4:
*A prospective study of posttraumatic stress disorder symptoms and coronary heart disease in women.*
Kubzansky LD, Koenen KC, Jones C, Eaton WW.
Health Psychol. 2009 Jan;28(1):125-30.
PMID: 19210026 [PubMed - in process]

5: ***************************************
*Further evidence that post-traumatic stress disorder but not dissociative disorders are related to amygdala and hippocampal size reduction in trauma-exposed individuals.*
Irle E, Lange C, Sachsse U, Weniger G.
Acta Psychiatr Scand. 2009 Feb 8. [Epub ahead of print] No abstract available.
PMID: 19207126 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
*********************************************

6:
An Open-Label Assessment of Aripiprazole in the Treatment of PTSD.
Robert S, Hamner MB, Durkalski VL, Brown MW, Ulmer HG.
Psychopharmacol Bull. 2009;42(1):69-80.
PMID: 19204652 [PubMed - in process]

7:
Neuropsychological functioning in patients with posttraumatic stress disorder following short-term paroxetine treatment.
Fani N, Kitayama N, Ashraf A, Reed L, Afzal N, Jawed F, Bremner JD.
Psychopharmacol Bull. 2009;42(1):53-68.
PMID: 19204651 [PubMed - in process]

8:
*Post-traumatic stress reactions among Rwandan children and adolescents in the early aftermath of genocide.*
Neugebauer R, Fisher PW, Blake Turner J, Yamabe S, Sarsfield JA, Stehling-Ariza T.
Int J Epidemiol. 2009 Feb 8. [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 19204009 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

9:
What are the most practical primary care screens for post-traumatic stress disorder?
Davis SM, Whitworth JD, Rickett K.
J Fam Pract. 2009 Feb;58(2):100-1.
PMID: 19203495 [PubMed - in process]

10:
*Resource loss, coping, alcohol use, and posttraumatic stress symptoms among survivors of Hurricane Katrina: a cross-sectional study.*
Kishore V, Theall KP, Robinson W, Pichon J, Scribner R, Roberson E, Johnson S.
Am J Disaster Med. 2008 Nov-Dec;3(6):345-57.
PMID: 19202888 [PubMed - in process]

11:
*The impact of PTSD on veterans' family relationships: An interpretative phenomenological inquiry.*
Ray SL, Vanstone M.
Int J Nurs Stud. 2009 Feb 6. [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 19201406 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

12:
An experimental analogue study into the role of abstract thinking in trauma-related rumination.
Ehring T, Szeimies AK, Schaffrick C.
Behav Res Ther. 2009 Jan 14. [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 19200947 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

13:
*Law enforcement preferences for PTSD treatment and crisis management alternatives.*
Becker CB, Meyer G, Price JS, Graham MM, Arsena A, Armstrong DA, Ramon E.
Behav Res Ther. 2009 Jan 17. [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 19200945 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

14:
*Psychological distress amongst immigration detainees: A cross-sectional questionnaire study.*
Robjant K, Robbins I, Senior V.
Br J Clin Psychol. 2009 Feb 5. [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 19200410 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

15:
Soldier evaluation of the virtual reality Iraq.
Reger GM, Gahm GA, Rizzo AA, Swanson R, Duma S.
Telemed J E Health. 2009 Jan;15(1):101-4.
PMID: 19199854 [PubMed - in process]

16:
*The impact of HIV diagnosis-related vs. non-diagnosis related trauma on PTSD, depression, medication adherence, and HIV disease markers.*
Boarts JM, Buckley-Fischer BA, Armelie AP, Bogart LM, Delahanty DL.
J Evid Based Soc Work. 2009 Jan;6(1):4-16.
PMID: 19199133 [PubMed - in process]

17:
Cape Town consensus on posttraumatic stress disorder.
Stein DJ, Cloitre M, Nemeroff CB, Nutt DJ, Seedat S, Shalev AY, Wittchen HU, Zohar J.
CNS Spectr. 2009 Jan;14(1 Suppl 1):52-8.
PMID: 19169194 [PubMed - in process]

18:
Can posttraumatic stress disorder be prevented?
Zohar J, Sonnino R, Juven-Wetzler A, Cohen H.
CNS Spectr. 2009 Jan;14(1 Suppl 1):44-51.
PMID: 19169193 [PubMed - in process]

19:
Effective psychotherapies for posttraumatic stress disorder: a review and critique.
Cloitre M.
CNS Spectr. 2009 Jan;14(1 Suppl 1):32-43.
PMID: 19169192 [PubMed - in process]

20:
Pharmacotherapy of posttraumatic stress disorder: a review of meta-analyses and treatment guidelines.
Stein DJ, Ipser J, McAnda N.
CNS Spectr. 2009 Jan;14(1 Suppl 1):25-31.
PMID: 19169191 [PubMed - in process]


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2009)

Spirit said:


> Dreamer* said:
> 
> 
> > Again, the internet is far too impersonal. But this is fascinating to me. And no, I do not invalidate anyone's experiences, nor am I denying the damage I have. I'm actually back in therapy, trying one more time to not feel like crap on a daily basis -- feeling worthless.
> ...


Good God woman, we post EXACTLY at the same time. And no need to tiptoe, damit, LOL. :lol: 
OK, enuf on this crazy subject.
We can all agree to disagree, and I still wish for HEALTH and HEALING whatever we have. (But I like proper diagnoses) 8)


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2009)

My head is asking me why I even got involved in this, it's spinning at the sight of all of those articles. I've had enough, we won't resolve this. I agree lets just agree to disagree.

As we are being so particular, It wasn't EXACTLY at the same time, it was two minutes earlier precisely. 

I agree with that, whatever already! LOL Lets hope we all find healing.


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## FinnG (Nov 25, 2008)

Spirit said:


> LOL FinnG, I agree with you, that was what I was trying to say.* That the symptoms of pstd are the same whether it was caused by a life threatening event or non life threatening event. And because it is the symptoms that create the diagnosis how can someone say that there must be a life threatening event to receive the diagnosis?* It sounds contradictory.


It IS contradictory.



> We can all agree to disagree, and I still wish for HEALTH and HEALING whatever we have. (But I like proper diagnoses) 8)


No, we cant disagree with this diagnosis. I dont think you can really disagree with a diagnosis and then focus only what fits your knowledge and throw out what doesnt fit your knowledge. You cant disagree with thousands of men and women having been diagnosed with ptsd due to sexual abuse, bullying etc yet you do. If you want proper diagnoses, you need to make sure you really GET it (ptsd) and you still dont. And you are indeed invalidating, you refuse to acknowledge there is such a thing as non-lifethreatening ptsd. Saying sexual abuse cannot lead to ptsd is invalidating the very people who have been diagnosed with ptsd because of sexual abuse. And that's a denial of reality.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2009)

Dreamer* said:


> Spirit, you don't need to apologize to me! :mrgreen: I just want to be acknowledged as being damaged. And some people somehow don't see that. We here have our own crosses to bear. Doesn't mean we can't discuss other stuff.


I missed this one, too many posts were being posted at once...

I think that's just life you know, it's tough, it's the same for all of us. I don't think I have ever invalidated the fact that you've suffered or suffer. I just think some impartiality is required when representing people or anything, like ptsd, if it's about your own fight then it's too partial. Just my opinion. And just because doctors aren't knowledgeable about Dp,d and other things that doesn't mean that they don't realize the extent of peoples suffering or that they are invalidating anyone. I think we can mistakenly project our own feelings of invalidation onto EVERYONE sometimes. Besides that, having your suffering acknowledged doesn't heal it, even when it feels like it will.


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## scylla (Nov 5, 2008)

Dreamer* said:


> . We need to sit down over coffee and talk to people who have experienced all of these things.





Spirit said:


> That the symptoms of pstd are the same whether it was caused by a life threatening event or non life threatening event. And because it is the symptoms that create the diagnosis how can someone say that there must be a life threatening event to receive the diagnosis? It sounds contradictory.


In 1985 there was a pretty fucked up earthquake in Mexico City. Thousands died. Me and my family couldn't open the door of our appartment and as the walls cracked open and the windows exploded my mom kept shouting it was the end and we were all going to die. I believed it, we finally managed to open it and run down the stairs in total darkness while bits of wall and roof fell on us. Later on, when it was over and we drove to my grandma's, I got to see through the window whatever was left of many of the buildings I used to know, and the corpses on the streets. Several of my 9 year old friends died. I couldnt go back to the appartment, I moved with my grandma, never ever went to visit anyone who lived higher than a third floor, didnt go downtown for YEARS, coulndt say the word earthquake, and if I happend to see the clock or watch and it was 07:19 I would have a nervous breakdown. everything was pretty much a trigger and I had horrible nightmares. I supposse this would qualify perfectly in dreamers PTSD definition, lifetreatening situation, survivor's guilt, etc... anyway I grew out of it (more o less)

When I was 23 there was another life threatening incident, there were guns and I, all of us thought we were going to die...BooM ...PTSD again. However by then 3 of my friends were psychologists and helped me out of it faster.

So I know what PTSD is like, believe me.

Now, bare with me, this is the interesting part: I got married, moved to Israel and had a child, And I was victim of emotional abuse for at least 4 years, I mean the real thing. I know emotional abuse doesnt sound bad. It is. It's fucking hell. Granted, it was not life threatening, but it does "kill" all certitudes you can ever hold on life. I've been diagnosed now PTSD by both, my pdoc and my psychologist. The symptoms are not different in any way to the symptoms I got after the earthquake or the other thing. Its the same mechanism, dp and dr included. The only difference I can see is the strengt of the PTSD, this time is waaaay stronger than ever before.

I'm not a doctor, but I've lived both situations you pose as examples. In my case (everyone is different, so I can only speak for myself) PTSD came both from physical life threatening experiences, and from prolongued abuse (and I'm not even saying child abuse). They both shake your beliefs to the core, they both kill any sense of security you could ever have, they both have the same symptoms, etc.

And according to my understanding the concept C-PTSD is problematic and has not yet been approved. Some professionals say the diff between PTSD and C-PTSD is the way you got it, either one single event, or a prolongued situation. Others say the difference is that C-PTSD is realted to BDP... Most agree that either way it's just a petty distinction, since the symptoms are shared and the proposed therapies are the same too.


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## scylla (Nov 5, 2008)

PS
DReamer, you owe me a coffee :mrgreen:


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2009)

I'm truly sorry to hear of your experience Scylla, sounds really horrendous, thank you for sharing it with us.

(I was saying that I believed both life threatening and non life threatening situations can cause ptsd, hope that was clear.)


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## scylla (Nov 5, 2008)

thanx Spirit.

It's OK, I've been lucky enough to have had also incledibly good experiences in my life, and they greatly overweight the bad ones. That, and the greatest gift of all, a good suppot net of friends and family.

hugs

and yes, your point was clear


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2009)

That's a great attitude you have Scylla, It's awesome that you can look at it that way after going through all of that, you must be a very strong person. :wink:

((hugs))


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2009)

scylla said:


> PS
> DReamer, you owe me a coffee :mrgreen:


scylla, I DO appreciate everything you wrote, and that is Hell on wheels, and I do admire your strength and attitude.

I went back to my dog-eared DSM-IV which mind you came out in 1994 and is hence old news. The next one should be out in 2010 or 2011. I will say, I have been greatly influenced by the definitions in the DSM and by the "life-threatening" concept. Also, the focus on traum'a to ADULTS and I see that has greatly influenced my DEFINITION of PTSD.

Here again is straight from DSM. I typed it out for my own punishment, LOL.
My problem ... few of these sources discuss the difference between the experience of children and adults. Children are not emphasized in this definition, and sexual abuse occurs with children -- age inappropriate sexual interaction.



DSM-IV PTSD Diagnostic Features said:


> *Traumatic events that are experienced directly include, but are not limited to, military combat, violent personal assault (sexual assault, physical attack, robbery, mugging), being kidnapped, being taken hostage, terrorist attack, torture, incarceration as a prisoner of war or in a concentration camp, natural and man-made disasters, severe automobile accidents, or being diagnosed with a life-threatening illness.
> 
> *** For children, sexually traumatic events may include developmentally inappropriate sexual experiences without threatened or actual violence or injury.******
> 
> ...


Page 424. Code: 309.81

So you are correct. Child sexual abuse can cause PTSD as well as battered wife syndrome. What is interesting and unclear however is the SYMPTOMS of the child are different from those of an adult, depending on the stressor as well. This is what threw me off, so I offer all of you a cup of coffee. Scylla, your observations made me understand this better.

Note, what is interesting again is INTIMATE trauma results in symptoms not listed as the KEY symptoms of PTSD which confused me greatly and still does. It also can be called "Adjustment Disorder." I recall ONE psychoanalyst I saw a few times gave me the diagnosis of "Adjustment Disorder of Childhood." I don't know if that term still exists... I have no strength to look it up now in the DSM, LOL.

*Symptoms for sexual abuse in children, battered wife, some concentration camp situations ... INTERPERSONAL STRESSORS, NOT GLOBAL DISASTER SCENARIOS ... however the symptoms described here give a child a DIFFERENT diagnosis from PTSD anyway which is terribly confusing. Again, much of this falls into borderline.* OMG. :shock:

1. impaired affect modulation (mood disorder/borderline symptoms)
2. Sorry, numbers off ...
3. self-destructive and impulsive behavior (this would be dangerous sex, self-injury, etc.)
4. dissociative symptoms
5. somatic complaints
6. feelings of ineffectiveness, shame, despair or hopelessness
7. feeling permanently damaged
8. a loss of previously sustained beliefs
9. hostility
10. social withdrawal
11. feeling constantly threatened
12. impaired relationships with others
13. or a change from the individual's previous personality characteristics.

Please understand, until I read further into this section which is "Associated Features and Disorders" -- I DID NOT associate PTSD with more than the key diagnostic criteria which it is best known for. *Also, from my childhood, I experience #1, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... and these are psychological aspects I fully acknowledge and make perfect sense in terms of my invalidating family. DP/DR however are not prominent PTSD symptoms which is confusing. You can have dissociation, but it is not a major factor. The result of my childhood trauma is severe fight/flight ... anxiety, worthlessness, essentially*

So, please excuse MY confusion. :shock: The DSM is poorly written in many areas.

I do realize we cannot be placed in boxes. My definition of PTSD at this time still remains as the main definition -- and I use it in terms of adults and serious disasters. Why the Hell, would they add "survivors' guilt," which is a MAJOR component -- if you are an abused child, who is the survivor you are guilty about?, unless you leave a younger sibling to suffer the same fate? The definition is flawed and childhood disorders should be separated as children act differently from adults in these situations! Damnit. Cough, IMHO.

I consider myself generally damaged from a home without love and with chaos and never ending verbal abuse. My diagnoses of GAD, Panic fit best. Psychological features (not SYMPTOMS) would be as noted in the numbers above (I now have this figured a bit more), and I have had long standing nightmares about my mother for years, which have passed since her death.

Do I have PTSD? I don't consider myself as having it. Do EDIT: SOME others here have it, well, I'd have to say they do. I would say that having a bad acid trip would not result in PTSD. But the definition isn't clear!
I will say however, I do not count bullying or the usual difficulties and foolishness that happens in childhood.

So, I concede my tried and true definition which shows up again and again is not COMPLETE and has a broader definition. It does include inappropriate sexual behavior with a child, or any of the other traumas noted.

I have learned something. This is why I enjoy these debates. It helps me understand what is going on with us. I like to UNDERSTAND things.... and that includes understanding myself.

I believe this should and will be clarified more fully in the 2011 DSM. However, I am still distressed that so many medical professionals DO NOT know what chronic DP/DR are. And that is what those of us on this board are here for.

I had to bold this: *I owe everyone a very exotic coffee at Starbucks -- I concede that children respond differently to all traumas and that one could define another set of symptoms attributed only to children as PTSD. And will now look up Adjustment Disorder of childhood. Good God, I'm glad I'm not a surgeon. I can't remember all of this stuff.*

Again, thank you scylla and spirit. In the spirit of debate, not personal attacks, and that is never my intent. I get frustrated with incorrect information, even my own.

Learn something new every day. And I like it. I'm also truly a screwed up mess, LOL.

:?

Cheers,
D :mrgreen:


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2009)

PS, I have done much research over the years and have considered going back to uni and getting credits for a psych degree. It would be for advocacy and low level research however. My damned mind is so poor however. But it is a goal. THis is why I am so steeped in this crap. It is seriously confusing. I hope you understand my confusion. 

Also Scylla: Here is my confusion. You hit it right on the head! Spot ON.


> And according to my understanding the concept C-PTSD is problematic and has not yet been approved. Some professionals say the diff between PTSD and C-PTSD is the way you got it, either one single event, or a prolongued situation. Others say the difference is that C-PTSD is realted to BDP... Most agree that either way it's just a petty distinction, since the symptoms are shared and the proposed therapies are the same too.


I do believe, as noted before.
Adult severe trauma/life threatening = PTSD
Childhood abuse, sexual, trauma = Borderline, and other developmental disorders and DISSOCIATION as noted
C-PTSD is an unclear diagnosis.
You summed it all up, as did the confusing DSM-IV thingie. They say it's one thing, then add 4 pages of "differential diagnosis"
You are saying what I'm saying... I think. An AHAH! moment. :shock:


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2009)

Dreamer* said:


> Learn something new every day. And I like it. I'm also truly a screwed up mess, LOL


Oh, me too, really. You can decide which bits of that sentence I'm agreeing with. :wink:

I only drink Tea. :mrgreen:

Like I said I wasn't certain my opinion was correct, I was confused about this, but now it's crystal clear. I learned a lot about ptsd, that's cool.

LOL.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2009)

Then tea it is! The British way with scones. High tea! It is all crystal clear now.
High tea is in order. The royal family is not invited. :mrgreen:


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

So this is random, but what's your IQ Dreamer? You seem to be really intelligent. A lot more than me lol.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2009)

OH GOD you changed your mind again. EDIT; I think :? I'm confused again, oh well. :lol: That's it. I want biscuits with my Tea now too!


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2009)

Dreamer* said:


> Then tea it is! The British way with scones. High tea! It is all crystal clear now.
> High tea is in order. The royal family is not invited. :mrgreen:


I missed this. :lol: Okay, Scones, that's even better. I'm not into the Royal family, but my grandfather worked for the Queen and is in a book written by a member of the Royal family...just something interesting, I thought. :wink:


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## scylla (Nov 5, 2008)

:mrgreen: I will take the exotic coffee while you elegantly sip on your tea and skones if you ladies dont mind



Spirit said:


> I'm not into the Royal family, but my grandfather worked for the Queen and is in a book written by a member of the Royal family...just something interesting, I thought.


now I know 17 random interesting facts about you :wink:



Dreamer* said:


> Why the Hell, would they add "survivors' guilt," which is a MAJOR component -- if you are an abused child, who is the survivor you are guilty about?, unless you leave a younger sibling to suffer the same fate?


I think there is survivor's guilt when you are an abused child, siblings or no siblings. Children often will NOT blame the parents/adults for their abuse, specially sexual abuse, since in his/her head, authority is never wrong, so he/she has no one else to blame but herself. The fact that you KNOW you are doing (even if it is unwillingly) something forbidden and punishable makes you feel guilty of surviving each time you are abused. (sais I, not any knowdledgable source :wink: )


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2009)

scylla said:


> I think there is survivor's guilt when you are an abused child, siblings or no siblings. Children often will NOT blame the parents/adults for their abuse, specially sexual abuse, since in his/her head, authority is never wrong, so he/she has no one else to blame but herself. The fact that you KNOW you are doing (even if it is unwillingly) something forbidden and punishable makes you feel guilty of surviving each time you are abused. (sais I, not any knowdledgable source :wink: )


Yeah, that.

The child (and into adulthood) may have a continuous battle in their mind also of who is bad and who is good...the abuser or them. Like "Am I bad because I was abused or is the abuser bad because they abused me"...Splitting...which leaves them swinging between either wanting fusion with the abuser or revenge. Also abusers make their victims feel guilty as a form of control and manipulation....Trying to take back that control can make the abused person feel guilty...Guilty for surviving it in the sense of taking that power away from the abuser which can cause the abused person to self humiliate because they can't admit that the abuser was wrong or worse, it's so distorted that they can't even accept that they were abused. They then paint a perfect fantasy of how things were in their mind with the help of abuser(to achieve fusion) and this can lead to severe dissociative tendencies(playing with ones reality to make it fit idealistic image) and wild outbursts of rage(wanting revenge) because deep inside they know the truth. Part of healing from dissociative tendencies caused by abuse involves untying these psychological knots. In my past experience, not an easy task.

I think a few people here will relate to this.


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## FinnG (Nov 25, 2008)

Dreamer* said:


> Also Scylla: Here is my confusion. You hit it right on the head! Spot ON.
> 
> 
> > And according to my understanding the concept C-PTSD is problematic and has not yet been approved. Some professionals say the diff between PTSD and C-PTSD is the way you got it, either one single event, or a prolongued situation. Others say the difference is that C-PTSD is realted to BDP... Most agree that either way it's just a petty distinction, since the symptoms are shared and the proposed therapies are the same too.
> ...


I thought Dreamer you got it and then I see you didnt fully (apologies for a late reply, had no time to respond).

PTSD is any life and no lifethreatening trauma, in children and adults. The list of symptoms of sexually abused children are not Borderline Personality Disorder symptoms alone, they can be found in ptsd and complex ptsd, too, in fact you can apply them to many traumatized people diagnosed with ptsd (not only sexual abused children). Borderline PD can develop without a history of sexual abuse or incest, in fact one can have Borderline PD without any history of abuse. This generates lots of debate about the cause of it.
A sexaul assault or rape as an adult can create the same symptoms as you listed for only children.
Complex ptsd is a separate diagnosis and is not Borderline PD, as is noted here. Borderlines can be diagnosed with ptsd as well, or complex ptsd as a separate diagnosis WITH Borderline PD. I know people who have experienced prolonged sexual abuse and other forms of abuse (neglect, psychological abuse) who developed complex ptsd only. 
The American Psychiatric Association is working on including complex ptsd in the next DSM. It's a clear and extensively researched diagnosis. With complex ptsd the most important difference with ptsd is that a person needs to be in a prolonged totalitarian situation of which escape is not possible, meaning the perpetrator(s) have total power over the person, longterm. With simple ptsd this is not the case.

As for bullying, please google bullying and ptsd, you will find lots of info on the relationship between the two. I didn't mean bullying of children only, also of adults, for example in the workplace, but bullying can happen in any social setting, even in the family.

Scylla, Im impressed to read about your emotional trauma and I agree that interpersonal trauma can have way more impact than non-personal and you pointed out the similarities between them clearly.

As for survivors guilt, I think abused people can experience this simply because of having survived ANY abuse. Because the message abuse gives is that one isnt supposed to be who they are or simply to exist (psychologically), and still existing can create that guilt, because you're not supposed to exist (I dont mean not physically alive, but to exist, as in psychologically). This makes sense to me. Anyway, my last 2 cents. Take care all.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

Finn said:


> PTSD is any life and no lifethreatening trauma, in children and adults.


I disagree.
And I think what the problem is is a very poor system of categorization called the DSM.

PTSD, as defined, the most COMMON understanding of that is LIFE THREATENING. If war and natural disasters and plane crashes don't make that point nothing will.

They direct the definition at adults, at survivors of life-threatening events, and note "survivor guilt." The most commonly recognized sufferer of PTSD is the war veteran. That is how it came to be accepted into the DSM in 1980, having been noted in battle veterans since the Civil War.

1. Childrens' symptoms after a life threatening PTSD even are DIFFERENT from those of an adult. My argument there would for them to make a more clear distinction between adult PTSD and childhood PTSD AFTER A LIFE THREATENING EVENT. Both children and adults suffer life-threatening events and survive plane crashes for example, but they react differently. Very young children cannot process and understand such an event the same way an adult can. The differences are noted.

2. I think it should be more clear that long term INTIMATE sexual abuse by children, or any abuse to a child is in a separate category. The definition is not clear, and it was only when I read further into the description (and they were noted as associated diagnopses, or alternate diagnoses I forgot :? ) that they brought up sexual abuse.

You may say I'm mincing words, but I say sexual ABUSE is something different from sexual ASSAULT. A more clear distinction could be made in the individual involved, the length of time the abuse continued, etc.

If you want to argue that anything life threatening can cause PTSD, then we all have PTSD as we will all die one day. Life is life threatening. You cannot start lumping things all into one category.

Also important is the reaction of each individual to an event.

Granted these definitions only help to rule out other disorders, and are used for insurance company coding and billing. This is true with physical disorders as well.

No need to debate this further. I do have a greater understanding of the matter. And you may agree or disgree. I'm OK with that.

I will pretty much insist that bullying is not PTSD. That is IMHO. Children torture each other emotionally a LOT. Children may end up with various adjustment problems, but not specifically PTSD.

Ah well. There are faults in the DSM that have been written about extensively anyway.

And so it goes. Just IMHO. The experiences of children SHOULD be separated from those of adults, especially in the category of PTSD. I'm actually writing them a letter, as though that will make a difference. The DSM is rather controversial. And I am no expert. I'm just trying to apply logic, and trying to really understand myself.

Here's hoping I always have Captain Sullenberger on every plane flight I take from here on out! :mrgreen:


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

Bottom line. The category should be divided more clearly between childhood disorders and adult disorders.

A child who has survived a horrible airplane crash may not even be old enough to understand what is going on, but might be frightened enough, made anxious enough by the reactions of adults, etc. that he/she will have childhood ptsd reactions.

I place childhood sexual abuse that occurs intimately with a pedophile, family member, etc. as something else. And of course it results in long-term "trama"... but I see this as even a different form of trauma.

A child who is endlessly bullied, yes, that is long term trauma, but of a different kind. Again, another category.

PTSD should be restricted to catastrophe survivors and the adult and child reactions should be specifically delineated.

Other abuse would fall into a separate category, which it generally does anyway.
Ah well. Time for a stupid TV show .... like LOST! It is SO bad it's good :mrgreen:


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## FinnG (Nov 25, 2008)

Look, you know you're wrong about this and you've been beating the reality of ptsd into the way you want it to be. Im gonna tell you are are wrong, okay. And you need to start to accept this reality. You try and manipulate it so you are right, Ive seen you do it this entire thread. You even dismiss a posters experiences of ptsd, lifethreatening and non-lifethreatening, while she (Scylla) gave you a great example of what happened to her to show you that the symptoms are the same.
You cant talk about ptsd (or any other diagnosis) as it being IMHO, or as a POV or as an opinion. You can have an opinion about ptsd, but you can't say it is only ptsd when it is lifethreatening, and when it isn't, it is not. Its been researched through decades what ptsd is, so why are you trying to deny that? I dont get it, Ive never had to explain to anyone to such lenghts and repeat myself again and again what it is. You can ofcourse create your own diagnosis, and in that case, we are not talking about ptsd anymore, but a self-created one made by you.



> If you want to argue that anything life threatening can cause PTSD, then we all have PTSD as we will all die one day. Life is life threatening. You cannot start lumping things all into one category.


I said this:


Finn said:


> PTSD is any life and no lifethreatening trauma, in children and adults.


What I meant, and you sure gave a spin to it, that for ptsd the cause can be lifethreatening or non-lifethreatening, that's what I meant with 'any', and not that any event in life can cause ptsd, Im sure you got that, as I explained before, but you needed to spin it.



> 1. Childrens' symptoms after a life threatening PTSD even are DIFFERENT from those of an adult. My argument there would for them to make a more clear distinction between adult PTSD and childhood PTSD AFTER A LIFE THREATENING EVENT. Both children and adults suffer life-threatening events and survive plane crashes for example, but they react differently. Very young children cannot process and understand such an event the same way an adult can. The differences are noted.


The basic ptsd symptoms for adult and children are the same! Why else would a ptsd diagnosis be applied to children, as they are? And sure very young children cant process a traumatic experience as an adult does, they dont have the cognitive capacity, but this doesnt mean they cant have ptsd! You can make up your own diagnosis, sure.



> They direct the definition at adults, at survivors of life-threatening events, and note "survivor guilt." The most commonly recognized sufferer of PTSD is the war veteran. That is how it came to be accepted into the DSM in 1980, having been noted in battle veterans since the Civil War.


As I told you before, from the eighties on, more research was done, and it was found that battered women showed signs of ptsd, then discovered people captured, tortured did too, same as combat soldiers. It was found in abused adults and abused children. You can find this information on the internet, it's general knowledge for any researcher or therapist, psychiatrist etc. Hell, even my friends now, who are laymen when it comes to this stuff. And I told you before, this is only part of the group that gets this diagnosis (the vets and combat soldiers), but you want to not let go it's not the only group.



> 2. I think it should be more clear that long term INTIMATE sexual abuse by children, or any abuse to a child is in a separate category. The definition is not clear, and it was only when I read further into the description (and they were noted as associated diagnopses, or alternate diagnoses I forgot :? ) that they brought up sexual abuse.


I also told you before, there is longterm sexual abuse and shortterm. The shortterm might develop ptsd, the longterm, complex ptsd, yet, this is not clearcut. Have you ever talked with a woman (or man) that was sexaully assaulted and what their symptoms were? How they got promiscuous after that, or didnt want any sex at all ever again, how they wanted to destroy themselves, how they got suicidal, how they lost trust in basic human values and rights etc? ALL symptoms of ptsd.

I dont know what youre doing Dreamer or who you are trying to convince?



> I will pretty much insist that bullying is not PTSD. That is IMHO. Children torture each other emotionally a LOT. Children may end up with various adjustment problems, but not specifically PTSD.


Bullying, again, Google it and/or look at bullyonline.org, PLENTY of info about bullying and ptsd. There are books written about it! And again, you cant have an opinion about this, its been researched and established and generally applied to children and adults that have been bullied and have ptsd due to it. You cant ignore that and you do. Who/what are you fighting?
If you want to create your own reality about what ptsd is, again, go right ahead. But then were not talking about ptsd anymore.

I dont understand what the problem is. No, I do. You cant accept what the diagnosis is and what it all entails. I dont know why, but I see it is happening. And I am stunned you cant accept that the diagnosis of ptsd is all what I wrote about it (and more) and what Scylla experienced and what other people experience. You will find it written in any book about ptsd.

And there is one simple rule. Complex ptsd always includes ptsd, but not the other way around.

Young children may need a different kind of therapy and treatement than adults, because of their cognitive abilities and development stage, however (and btw for adults there are several different ways to treat ptsd), the symptoms are the same. Is that where the misunderstanding is?

Take care all.


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2009)

Anxiety/panic attacks, and the feeling like I was gonna die that came with it, caused my dp/dr,which caused my depression, that led to my ptsd, ruminating over the feelings of imminent death from my anxiety/panic. I guess Dreamer is going by the guidelines as stated in the dmsv concerning the diagnosis of PTSD. But in my opinion anyone who is contantly reminded of a traumatic event which leads to chronic anxiety and ruminating thoughts, whether it be a life and death situation as in war, sexually abused, or through any emotional trauma that doesn't neccessarily have to be life threatening, but leaves a lasting or permanent negative impression on your psyche can be classified as ptsd. An example would be coming home to find your family massacred, witnessing someone get run over by a bus, or having a loved one pass away. These examples don't necessarily make you feel that you're life is in danger such as in war, but in my opinion can definately lead someone to suffer from ptsd.


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2009)

DpDream said:


> Anxiety/panic attacks, and the feeling like I was gonna die that came with it, caused my dp/dr,which caused my depression, that led to my ptsd, ruminating over the feelings of imminent death from my anxiety/panic.


Truly, I do not, and have never meant to dismiss anyone's experience or suffering. I also know the feeling of panic attacks where I felt I was going to die. But again, for the last time to ATTEMPT to make this clear, which I'm obviously doing VERY poorly  .... "feeling like you were going to die from a panic attack" does not result in PTSD, I can be 100% certain of that. If you were told by your doctor you had cancer and you were going to die, YES, you could have the simple clear definition of PTSD.

Again, the critical distinction, and truly the OLD meaning comes from literal DEATH. I will only say one more time, that if you are in a plane and suddenly it crashes to the ground, and you end up surviving the experience, running from the aircraft and witnessing people in flames burning to death -- the true, SIMPLE definition is Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

And FINN, we will never come to any High Tea conclusion, so I will only say that the definition and classification of what PTSD is defined is is pretty clear in a threat of loss of life situation. Also, scylla's experience in natural catastrophes = PTSD. Her experience in an abusive relationship with a man was *when she was not a child. So I am not dismissing her situation either.EDIT: and a battered wife can get PTSD, ESPECIALLY if her life is threatened by her partner. But not EVERY person in these situations gets PTSD either.*

And I listed the different symptoms children have after something like a plane crash -- they do not have the exact same responses as adults -- they "reenact the scenario" with toys, etc. Simply see what came up as "alternative diagnoses" -- they tacked that on near the end portion of the Chapter.

The DSM is not well written. I am only trying to understand it. And it is argued that after the latest one in 2011 there will be no more DSM. We will use the International Classification of Disorders and attempt to use a global categorization of illnesses ... as, well, this is a global society now. There are cultural differences, but generally people end up with the same illnesses worldwide. They are called different names.

*And I swear, in this last response, I am not taking away from anything anyone here has suffered from. I am neither right nor wrong, I AM confused about the definition. If they would stick to the diagnostic criteria of PTSD as it was originally conceived of in 1980 that would be fine. But they don't. And as I say, it mainly DID, and still DOES, apply to war veterans and this is why it is now recognized as a legitimate disorder in Veterans who were not given treatment after discharge.*

Survivor's guilt was originally attributed to the individual who lived when friends, family, even strangers on a plane or in a battlefield, who died in front of them. EDIT: The survivor asks, "Why me? Why DIDN'T I die and not my wife, my child, the lady next to me on the plane?" They also have terrible images in their heads of bodies destroyed, individuals maimed, etc. In the WTC mess, many saw individuals jumping to their deaths ... actual DEATH ... from 60 stories up. This disturbed even the most die-hard firefighters and police officers. Bodies, landing on the roof with a thud in the lobby. DEAD. And mutilated.

*EDIT: Also, I had a friend commit suicide. That is a stunning blow and she is forever gone; I couldn't believe it, I STILL don't believe it, I still think I might phone her up to go out. I attended a Surivors <----- survivors ------> of suicide group. I did not have PTSD, but very confused feelings and GUILT that there "must have been something I could have done to save her." BUT THERE WASN'T. Those most likely to HAVE PTSD were in particular, parents. They were haunted with having their child die like that. "What did I do wrong? I see the body hanging from the bed every time I close my eyes. I read the obituaries every day to see if someone killed themselves. This destroyed my marriage. I should have DIED FIRST, not my child." Those people were a WRECK. They had VERY SPECIFIC symptoms. The often found the body themselves.*

I am referring to a specific definition that has lost some of its meaning and clarity over time.

Also, the acceptance of PTSD as a legitimate and serious problem in veterans, has led therapists to understand that catastrophes of many types, LIFE-THREATENING catastrophes MUST BE DEALT WITH, the sooner the better. I believe that WTC survivors have a high rate of PTSD, something of an epidemic.

I'm sorry I started such a mess.
Peace and time for a nap. Taxes are done. I'm exhausted. I cannot do math to save my life.
Forgive.
D


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2009)

But it's OK if anyone thinks I'm full of crap. I'm just trying to wade my way through my own unhappiness. And I try to understand what all of these diagnoses mean, why I ended up this way, was I born this way, why do some people with loving families have DP? I don't know.
Cheers,
And I do wish, as always that this wasn't an internet discussion, but a discussion over coffee, or tea and scones. I shall leave it at that.

I owe everyone coffee or tea and scones and other lovely things.
Hey, Spring is coming! 8)


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2009)

Dreamer* said:


> "feeling like you were going to die from a panic attack" does not result in PTSD, I can be 100% certain of that.


I agree with that, its obvious, panic attacks definitely Do not lead to Post traumatic stress disorder. If a doctor ever suggested that panic attacks and depression could lead to Post traumatic disorder then they should be struck off.


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## FinnG (Nov 25, 2008)

DpDream said:


> Anxiety/panic attacks, and the feeling like I was gonna die that came with it, caused my dp/dr,which caused my depression, that led to my ptsd, ruminating over the feelings of imminent death from my anxiety/panic. I guess Dreamer is going by the guidelines as stated in the dmsv concerning the diagnosis of PTSD. But in my opinion anyone who is contantly reminded of a traumatic event which leads to chronic anxiety and ruminating thoughts, whether it be a life and death situation as in war, sexually abused, or through any emotional trauma that doesn't neccessarily have to be life threatening, but leaves a lasting or permanent negative impression on your psyche can be classified as ptsd. An example would be coming home to find your family massacred, witnessing someone get run over by a bus, or having a loved one pass away. These examples don't necessarily make you feel that you're life is in danger such as in war, but in my opinion can definately lead someone to suffer from ptsd.


Yes, this is what ptsd is, the causes that can create it in a human being.
And again, Dreamer, youre wrong. Im stunned after all the info you got here, you hold on to the ptsd established in 1980, and ignored the newer DSM IV, 1994, criteria. You and I didnt disagree, you hold on to dated information, I dont. And I find you a manipulative person, that wont acknowledge reality and truth, but rather be right and manipulate reality to how you like it to be, instead of looking for truth of what it all is. Amazing. Have you looked up bullying and ptsd yet? You didnt. Because it would show you, you are wrong about dismissing it. Amazing. In science, or at University, if you do this, you'll flunk. Take care all and dpdream, good luck with your panic and ptsd.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2009)

Thanks FinnG. The bottom line is we're all struggling with the same disorder whether it includes ptsd or not, or how we perceive ptsd to be. We are all suffering.


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## FinnG (Nov 25, 2008)

DpDream said:


> Thanks FinnG. The bottom line is we're all struggling with the same disorder whether it includes ptsd or not, or how we perceive ptsd to be. We are all suffering.


DpDream, Im not denying people's suffering, and I have my own pain to deal with. I just think that if someone talks about ptsd (or any other diagnosis) and is misinformed and sticks to that, despite having been given enough information to correct, to point that out (see above). It's just not allright


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2009)

Hi Finn. I was just speaking to the group of this thread in general. I also agree with your position on ptsd. I found the definition of ptsd on Wikipedia which I can relate to. In my opinion the second and third paragraphs' definition of ptsd would involve dp/dr, and as you mentioned, bullying as causes of ptsd. Here it is: "It is a severe and ongoing emotional reaction to an extreme psychological trauma. This stressor may involve someone's actual death, a threat to the patient's or someone else's life, serious physical injury, an unwanted sexual act, or a threat to physical or psychological integrity, overwhelming psychological defenses".

"In some cases it can be from profound psychological and emotional trauma, apart from any actual physical harm."

The following is the full definition of PTSD according to Wikipedia:

Posttraumatic stress disorder
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Post-traumatic stress disorder)
Jump to: navigation, search
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder
Classification and external resources 
ICD-10 F43.1 
ICD-9 309.81 
DiseasesDB 33846 
MedlinePlus 000925 
eMedicine med/1900 
MeSH D013313 
Posttraumatic stress disorder[1][2] (PTSD) is an anxiety disorder that can develop after exposure to one or more traumatic events that threatened or caused grave physical harm.

It is a severe and ongoing emotional reaction to an extreme psychological trauma.[3] This stressor may involve someone's actual death, a threat to the patient's or someone else's life, serious physical injury, an unwanted sexual act, or a threat to physical or psychological integrity, overwhelming psychological defenses.

In some cases it can also be from profound psychological and emotional trauma, apart from any actual physical harm. Often, however, incidents involving both things are found to be the cause.

PTSD is a condition distinct from traumatic stress, which has less intensity and duration, and combat stress reaction, which is transitory. PTSD has also been recognized in the past as railway spine, stress syndrome, shell shock, battle fatigue, traumatic war neurosis, or post-traumatic stress syndrome (PTSS).

Diagnostic symptoms include reexperience such as flashbacks and nightmares, avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma, increased arousal such as difficulty falling or staying asleep, anger and hypervigilance. Per definition, the symptoms last more than six months and cause significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning (e.g. problems with work and relationships.)[1]

I can see how some people can interpret the definition differently than others.Some dictionary's only mention the perceived physical threat, and there has to be a traumatic event, where others also mention psychological events that can cause it. In my opinion D/P was a more than enough traumatic event for me, to cause PTSD. Would it be different if I was in a car crash which led to my dp and ptsd rather than anxiety? The bottom line is the end result is PTSD in both cases. In paragraph one it states exposure to one or more traumatic events that threatened or caused grave physical harm. I guess bullying and dp/dr would not fall into this category. Then it says the stressor may involve a threat to physical and psychological integrity, and in some cases can be from extreme psychological and emotional trauma apart from any actual physical harm, which in my opinion would include dp/dr and bullying. It also says PTSD is a condition distinct from trumatic stress, which has less intensity and duration, and combat stress reaction, which is transitory. Does that mean war veterans don't suffer from PTSD since it's only defined as transitory. On the other hand there is nothing transitory about my dp/dr and it's with me 24/7, that's threatening my psychological welfare and overwhelming my psychological defenses, which led to dp. Is this why people say dp is your brain shutting down in order to protect your psyche? That's why I believe in my situation that anxiety and overwhelming stress and constant panic attacks theatened my psyche, which led to dp/dr, which led to PTSD because I couldn't explain these strange dp feelings and didn't know what was happening to me which made me believe I lost my mind and actually died when dp/dr first struck, which led to constant ruminating thoughts.
I guess the diagnosis criteria can be thrown out the window because we are all unique individuals and don't need a book to tell us what we don't and don't have, or that some individuals don't suffer from PTSD because they don't fit the crieria even though they're suffering from the same psychological and physical symptoms of people who are diagnosed with PTSD. Remember the DSMV is constantly being updated as patients are reporting symptoms. Mental illness is not cut and dry like a physical illness, and and is open to interpretation as experienced by the affected individual.
Or maybe Dreamer's right. Can this be a dissociation issue and not PTSD, Can all this mental stress and ruminating I'm going through be part of dp and the dissociative disorders, even though in my mind dp/dr was a traumatic break with reality where I thought I actually died (and still do). Or do I suffer from both? But does every bullied child or mentally abused child suffer from dissociation or is it PTSD? Or a combination of both. If the child has nightmares and avoids going to school than I think it may be PTSD. On the other hand a mentally abused child may be suffering from dissociation. In Hurricane's situation the fight he had probably caused severe anxiety which led to depersonalization, which can also lead to PTSD if he still relives the event through nightmates and avoids conflict at any cost. As for me since there wasn't any imminent threat to my life and dp was caused by severe stress and anxiety, but I constantly ruminate about dp, the state of my mind, and feel my psyche is threatened, could this be classified as PTSD? 
See what I mean folks. All open to interpretation and an individuals personal feelings.


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## FinnG (Nov 25, 2008)

DpDream said:


> On the other hand a mentally abused child may be suffering from dissociation. In Hurricane's situation the fight he had probably caused severe anxiety which led to depersonalization, which can also lead to PTSD if he still relives the event through nightmates and avoids conflict at any cost. As for me since there wasn't any imminent threat to my life and dp was caused by severe stress and anxiety, but I constantly ruminate about dp, the state of my mind, and feel my psyche is threatened, could this be classified as PTSD?
> See what I mean folks. All open to interpretation and an individuals personal feelings.


DpDream, a shortened reply for now, the words are dancing infront of me eyes, I read there was research done that concluded people didnt need to even have a traumatic event happen and still develop ptsd (I have a link but cant post it). But you say your dp was caused by severe stress and anxiety and from what I know (and please correct me if Im wrong) dissociation and dp can be a result of severe stress and anxiety (dont know what caused this for you?) and the risk of getting ptsd is way higher if one dissociates after/during a very painful experience or trauma than if one doesnt dissociate after/during a very painful experience or traumatic event (I have this info from several researches, but again, cant post a link). So, I dont know, lol.
Have you ever seen a therapist or any other mental health professional?


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2009)

I had anxiety/panic attacks briefly ten years ago. At the time I was living in New York. I moved to Miami in 2003 at the invitation of my wife(who I was separated from at the time), to reconcile. I also made the move to be closer with my daughter. After a couple of months in Miami, I knew I made a terrible mistake and despised it tremendously. It was a big culture shock for me. I hated the weather, was unemployed for quite some time, the traffic was like sitting in a can of sardines and people weren't as friendly as in New York and hardly anyone spoke English. 
For a long time I had built in anger towards my wife for the move, and everyday I found myself hating the city more and had many confrontations on the road and off.
My depersonalization started when the anxiety/panic attacks resurfaced that summer in 2007, as a result of an irregular heartbeat. My heart would actually stop for seconds at a time and skip a beat or two which caused great anxiety and skyrocketed my blood pressure to an average reading of 200/110. Then one day while driving my wife to work one day I snapped at her after a simple misunderstanding. Immediately I felt the blood rush to my head and blacked out for a second.
When I came to, all of a sudden I felt like I was living in the twilight zone. Everything seemed to move in slow motion, I felt I was seeing through a tunnel, and nothing seeemed real. I thought at first it was a stroke. I didn't know what it was but when people asked how I felt I would always tell them I felt as if I wasn't here and that life didn't feel the same as before, and was convinced I died and didn't know it. That led to derealization. In hindsight I believe I had a mental breakdown that day on the road sort of like Michael Douglas in the movie "Falling Down". 
Of course doctors couldn't find anything and just prescribed atenolol(beta blockers), which controlled the anxiety and bp. My wife didn't understand but gave me tremendous support. My mother and sisters thought I was a hyperchondriac and mom actually told me to get a life and snap out of it. Before this happened I remembered going through major psychological changes. I always had sleep disorders, undiagnosed narcolepsy and at times seizures in my sleep which doctors have dismissed in the past. I started having exestential thoughts, my ocd worsened,developed panic attacks where I couldn't leave the house, and then when dp struck it sent me into a suicidal depression.I remember thinking my wife poisoned me and that people were after me to explain how I was feeling, but I knew I wasn't imagining what I was feeling and could still think rationally. I also remember telling my sister "I was starting to become like dad". After my mom divorced him he's been in and out of mental institutions for years, suffering from severe depression and schizoaffective disorder,and had many ECT treatments which didn't help. He didn't leave the house in 15 years and bathed an averge of once every month. We eventually had to put him in a nursing home because he refused to take meds and take care of himself. I actually remember him at times believing the government was after him and him mentioning that he died on numerous occasions. When I hear people say those who suffer from depersonalization disorder are genetically predisposed to it at a certain time in their lives I think are correct. I think in my case the combination of anxiety/panic attacks, ocd thoughts which kept my mind in dp mode, and a genetic suceptibility contributed to it all. But I was determined to find answers as to what was going on with me. I decided maybe I needed to move back to New York and maybe I'll get better. After about two months of feeling the same I decided to apply for state run medicaid since I couldn't work. I was living with my sister at the time. After waiting two months I was approved for medical benefits.
I went to every doctor from a cardiologist to a neurologist, had all the tests performed, brain scan and the like with everything coming back negative. I remember thinking I had lyme disease, multiple sclerosis, schizophrenia, a brain tumor, etc. etc. I also remember that every doctor I went to, told me to see a psychiatrist. I refused to believe anything mental was wrong with me. I always contributed it to something physical. The neurologist in New York prescribed Zoloft which I was afraid to take and never took. I finally went back to Florida, accepting my condition for what it was and continued to move on with my life with it. I never saw a psych back in New York because for whatever reason the wait was too long and when I did have an appointment it was foe a psychologist. Actually he was a social worker who never touched on dp/dr and what I was feeling. He tried to gear me towards finding employment and asked what about my life I would change, but never touched on dp. I was hoping the doctors would find something and even wished for schizophrenia, and willed myself to go crazy so a label could be put on what was affecting me.
I keep on wondering if dp has been around for so long how come I never hear anybody complain about it or even mention it. I mean if it's the third most common psychological condition how come it's vastly unknown to professionals? Even before I had dp I never heard of people complain about it's symptoms like you would depression, or schizophrenia, etc. That's why I thought there maybe was a conspiracy against me and my symptoms were imagined or a curse for my past misdeeds. I mean you hear people say this depression is getting to me I can't take it anymore but you never hear someone say this dp is getting to me I cannot take it anymore, at least in real life, besides some of us on this board which makes me to believe is this at all real or am I really dead. Why does everybody dismiss us and our feelings? Do they know something we don't? Why is dp misunderstood and swept under the rug? People make you feel like it's almost a taboo subject to talk about. Why?Is there a conspiracy? Did we fall into the abyss and not know it? That's one of the many reasons I cut off ties with particular family members who believe it's all in my head and lack empathy. What really helped me to understand what was happening to me was Janine Baker's book"Unraveling", a patient to patients guide to a nervous breakdown. She really gets into dp/dr and was a former member of this site. Even then my OCD kept telling me none of this was real. But real or not that book was the only piece of information to help me come close to understanding what was happening to me. I know it's a really long crazy story but thanks for taking time out to read it. I guess I had to express my thoughts and feelings while still waiting to see a psychiatrist.


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2009)

I think the fact that you've agreed that Ptsd can be caused by panic attacks FinnG just discredits anything else that you've said.
That is ludicrous, totally incorrect.

Now I'm out of this thread for definite, you was blatantly rude to Dreamer saying she was wrong, now it seems you are misinformed yourself... :roll: What a pointless waste of time and energy. :lol:

Noone here is a qualified professional, maybe if people stopped carrying on like they had some authority in these matters when they clearly do not, stupid debates like this wouldn't happen.

I'm out of here for a while, the forum, I don't know how long for. Life is too beautiful for this rubbish and I'm too busy for this crap...Bye.


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## FinnG (Nov 25, 2008)

Spirit said:


> I think the fact that you've agreed that Ptsd can be caused by panic attacks FinnG just discredits anything else that you've said.
> That is ludicrous, totally incorrect.


Forgive, Dpdream I have the flu, I will PM you shortly, okay? 
And to Spirit, I didnt say that, I said Panic Disorder and ptsd can go together, but I didnt say panic can cause ptsd, sorry if I wasnt clear. I asked DPDream what caused his anxiety and severe stress to make sense of why he thinks his panic causes ptsd. I did not say it does. Im just trying to understand him and why he says that, that's all. I hope this is cleared up. Take care all.


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## FinnG (Nov 25, 2008)

Spirit said:


> Noone here is a qualified professional, maybe if people stopped carrying on like they had some authority in these matters when they clearly do not, stupid debates like this wouldn't happen.


Spirit, this is why I kept saying Dreamer's defintion of ptsd is incomplete (and yes, wrong to stick to it despite it being incomplete and having new info availabe and despite that, ignoring it) and given she sees herself as some kind of authority on mental health matters, the impressions she gives, I felt to make very clear, she is not if she cant even acknowledge a diagnosis for what it IS. It worried me. Im thinking exactly the same you do. I didn't even want to debate this.
This is a weird forum, for sure, never seen anything like this before


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2009)

Of course no one here is a qualified professional, and I said in my MPD/DID discussion I don't understand it and wish to learn more. In this PTSD discussion I have found varying definitions the more I look.

One more time, I Googled child abuse and ptsd and got an intersting result:

http://www.ncptsd.va.gov/ncmain/ncdocs/ ... abuse.html



from above link said:


> Child sexual abuse includes a wide range of sexual behaviors that take place between a child and an older person. These sexual behaviors are intended to erotically arouse the older person, generally without consideration for the reactions or choices of the child and without consideration for the effects of the behavior upon the child. Behaviors that are sexually abusive often involve bodily contact, such as in the case of sexual kissing, touching, fondling of genitals, and oral, anal, or vaginal intercourse. However, behaviors may be sexually abusive even if they don't involve contact, such as in the case of genital exposure ("flashing"), verbal pressure for sex, and sexual exploitation for purposes of prostitution or pornography.
> 
> *Who are the perpetrators of child sexual abuse?
> Legal definitions of what constitutes child sexual abuse usually require that the perpetrator be older than the victim. For example, in some states perpetrators must be at least five years older than their victims for the behavior to be considered child sexual abuse.
> ...


In the above, PTSD is noted as one symptom, or possible long-term effect of child sexual abuse. This I agree with, especially in terms of the definition of the abuser. #2-#5 are NOT listed as the primary symptoms of PTSD in adults. So I stand corrected that a child who is molested like this CAN have PTSD, but again this is not what I have understood to be the primary result of child abuse.

I am sorry if I'm trying to sort this out. It is a matter of definitions. Because even here, PTSD is a possible side effect of child sexual abuse. The actual symptoms of PTSD itself are generally different and apply to adults, and I will give those again in yet another site.

http://www.helpguide.org/mental/post_tr ... atment.htm



from the link above said:


> Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a disorder that can develop following a traumatic event that threatens your safety or makes you feel helpless. Most people associate PTSD with battle-scarred soldiers ? and military combat is the most common cause in men ? but any overwhelming life experience can trigger PTSD, especially if the event is perceived as unpredictable and uncontrollable.
> 
> Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) can affect those who personally experience the catastrophe, those who witness it, and those who pick up the pieces afterwards, including emergency workers and law enforcement officers. It can even occur in the friends or family members of those who went through the actual trauma.
> 
> ...


Here is the problem, and I wish this could be more of a constructive debate, PTSD is a disorder that results very often after a catastrophe. A life-threatening catastrophe.

PTSD can also occur as a symptom of childhood sexual abuse. I see that. And it makes perfect sense, especially when done by a stranger, a pedophile, etc.

I have always understood that the term PTSD was overused in cases other than in the case of catastrophe. I guess I am trying to understand what people are saying here. I DO NOT always know when someone is posting what sort of threats or abuse they have received. I was abused as a child, but not sexually, and over the years could fit the diagnosis of PTSD ... sort of but not really.

This is where I believe this concept of COMPLEX PTSD (C-PTSD) has become more prominent and debated. It makes sense that I child can be damaged in so many different ways from abuse. I understand my own damage. Here we speak of dissociation, anxiety, depression mainly, and an association with anxiety disorders. PTSD is a symptom. DP/DR are symptoms or could be a chronic disorder in and of itself. I am not even certain how to define chronic DP.

I'd be up for discussing it.

I'm simply looking for a clear definition.

I'm sorry. I don't intend to come off as an authority. In this I have learned something from everyone here. FINN, you seem to dislike me vs. wanting to debate. That is something different.

Again, I have learned a great deal from this. In my website, about MYSELF, no one else, I don't discuss PTSD as I know little about it save what the general definition is and what I have heard people talk about. What I have seen in the media even. I have opened up discussion on MPD/DID as I don't understand it.

So I apologize one last time. No harm intended. I am an authority on nothing save my own life, and am I'm not even an expert on that. And FINN, if you find the board odd ... you have deterimined it is so by posting mainly in this thread. And I suppose think I am the only person who posts here. You don't need to give me that much authority, and you shouldn't. There are many other POVs here.

Also, symptoms ... I DON'T SEE how symptoms can cause disorders. We have a constellation of symptoms that when put together comprise a DISORDER. In my case, my symptoms of DP/anxiety/panic/depression are best summed up as GAD and Panic. No one since 1975 has ever said I have PTSD. I believe that over the past decade there is perhaps not a change in the basic definition of PTSD, but in how the diagnosis is given. This is what I'm trying to discuss, again not being clear obviously.

Apologies.
Last call for tea and coffee. I've learned one more thing tonight. And I'll leave it at that. I think a child who is sexually abused has MANY symptoms, and I see PTSD makes perfect sense as one disorder ... but the child's defined symptoms are different from the specific symptoms delineated for PTSD is all, and I find that confusing. SImply as someone who is fascinated by all of this.

And believe me, I would want to go back to school, BECAUSE I AM NOT an authority. And I am trying to site things, legitimate sources to support my theories.

*Please note the definition at the top of PTSD symptoms. They are specific initially, then become more murky. It is interesting however, that even on this link, the photo used is a soldier in combat. I find the definition confusing. I find the diagnosis of some people here confusing. I am trying to understand.*

Good mental to health is all, and all that matters.
D


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2009)

I can't help mulling this over. Here's the thing.

PTSD is a disorder, it is a specific diagnosis. It is comprised of symptoms including reenactment of an event, nightmares, agitation, rage, etc. Somewhere back in this thread it is noted that DP/DR can be SYMPTOMS OF PTSD in about 30% of cases, but then DP is a symptom, not the diagnosis.

So one symptom, can not cause a disorder. An event, or one's upbringing or living conditions, etc. if truamatic in various ways cause different symptoms.

I can see how in my case that my DP/DR symptoms come hand in hand with anxiety symptoms that come hand in hand with panic attacks. The best description of this combination of SYMPTOMS is the DISORDER called Generalized Anxiety Disorder.

So, many of us here who have chronic DP/DR which seems to come with severe anxiety ... I can't say those are PTSD symptoms. Hence, you can't call our diagnosis PTSD. This is what I'm trying to say. And a panic attack for example does not count (and I am almost certain of this) as a trigger for the DISORDER called PTSD. So this is what I'm trying to say.

Must separate a CLUSTER OF SYMPTOMS from a DISORDER which is the main problem being treated. And different probelms or disorders must be treated differently and appropriately. This then goes back to the point that I am troubled by many doctors/therapists who throw out strange diagnoses for many of us here.

So, that was my thinking when I started this.

Well, it is now almost time to lose all my cares and woes in the insane program called "LOST" which is absolutely RIDICULOUS but takes my mind off of everything. My kitchen could catch fire and I wouldn't notice, LOL.

I really care about all of ya'll, whether I come off as a crab or not. Use the excuse that I'm an old 50 year old lady. I can now use that excuse. :mrgreen:

BE WELL!
And to so many here, you aren't schizophrenic ... that's another fear ... and some here have been MISDIAGNOSED with that, or self-diagnose. That is the root of my concern. I like to understand things. Not just psychology, but WHY? Like why the entire US economy went to Hell, etc. No, won't go there, time for LOST!
Nite.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2009)

FinnG said:


> Im thinking exactly the same you do. I didn't even want to debate this.
> This is a weird forum, for sure, never seen anything like this before


No worries I'm done with this, there is no right or wrong person here end off..I never take sides and always view everything from all angles.

Now really Later...I'm out of here for a while, was just sorting a few PM's out and thought I would come back to respond to your post to me. Bye bye.


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