# Anyone familiar with Repetitive Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation? -Recent Publication March 2011



## glointhedark (May 30, 2009)

Hey guys,

Has anyone heard or had experience with rTMS Therapy? It would be interesting to hear your stories.

Also, just a random question but do you think Health Insurance will cover such treatment options if I were to have it approved by a psychiatrist?

Below is the abstract for the publication, I find the "Five responders received 3 more weeks of right TPJ rTMS showing 68% DPD symptoms improvement." to be very interesting. Unfortunetly, I can only view the abstract and not the entire publication.

Happy Friday!

Psychiatry Res. 2011 Mar 30;186(1):138-40. Epub 2010 Sep 15.

Temporo-parietal junction stimulation in the treatment of depersonalization disorder.
Mantovani A, Simeon D, Urban N, Bulow P, Allart A, Lisanby S.
Division of Brain Stimulation and Therapeutic Modulation, Department of Psychiatry, Columbia University/New York State Psychiatric Institute, New York 10032, USA.

Abstract
This is the first clinical trial of repetitive Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (rTMS) in depersonalization disorder (DPD). After 3weeks of right temporo-parietal junction (TPJ) rTMS, 6/12 patients responded. Five responders received 3 more weeks of right TPJ rTMS showing 68% DPD symptoms improvement. Right TPJ rTMS was safe and effective.


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## university girl (Aug 11, 2004)

i too am curious about this. looking into it.


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## S O L A R I S (Dec 24, 2009)

This is great news!

I've had few sessions of rtms but quit shortly afterwards due to cost and basically not getting the benefits I wanted. The application Was placed on the left side of the prefrontal cortex - which is the only fda approved application. Note that rtms of this part of the brain is only approved for depression as of yet.

I recall going to my doctor and asking him to switch to the right tpj of the brain which I researched had something to do with dp. He of course said no.

But this is fascinating actually. I wonder if you can find practitioners who are willing to target the machine to the right tpj - most likely you won't find anyone willing, no one wants to experiment on a patient and risk their practice

The machine actually is not that complex at all, it seemed almost toy like. The coil head is like a small racket which is set on your head. It doesn't pressure your head, it just lightly sits on top. Then it massages the head, it kind of feels like getting a brain freeze but it's non painful, on the contrary, it's very relaxing.


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## aloof (Nov 18, 2008)

I tried it....did 10 treatments. did nothing noticeable for DP and horribly expensive. And yeah good luck on getting a doctor to apply it to the right TPJ anytime soon.


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## AndyD (Nov 24, 2011)

Regarding TMS... PLEASE READ THIS>>>>> I was in that study at Columbia with Dr. Montanovi. It was literally the most regretful thing I have ever done in the l1 years I've had this illness. Single most regretful thing by far and I've tried just about every med out there, 2 to 3 times. The treatments made my DP about 90 times worse. I would leave the sessions totally mentally gone. Didn't even know my name, where I was, who I was, what was going on. My DP would get so bad I would practically black out. The dementia, confusion and amnesia that developed out of these treatments made my normal DP/DR look like "Disneyland".

The sick and twisted thing about it is that Montanovi and the other docs there kept encouraging me to come back day after day. They kept telling me to stick it out and that it was normal to get worse before I get before. They stated that my increase in DP would subside in time. Because I wanted so badly to get better and get rid of the DP I was stupid enough to listen to them. For several weeks I went for treatments daily until I was so sick I had to drop out of the study because I could barely even get there. I've never fully recovered from the treatments (roughly 3 years ago) and until this day my DP is ten times worse than it ever was before the study. I became a complete vegetable after... can't work and can barely function. True Story. Please please don't try this nonsense if you have DP. The studies are skewed and the statistics are made out to be better than they really are. A lot of the time they don't even include the 30 people that dropped out of the study in the results. The 6/12 respondents that saw some improvement were the 12 that were able to complete the study. Even if they disclose a few drop outs in the study.... trust me... this is not the real number. The drop out rate is much much higher than they disclose. I saw people come and go like flies. They'd drop out after just a session or two. Those people are not disclosed in the results of the study no matter what they say.

Additionally, these docs don't know enough about the procedure and don't know enough about DP do be banging on your head with a Magnet for 30 minutes a day. Trust me they have absolutely no clue what is happening inside your head. They can only guess based on some scientific nonsense that may work in theory but in reality they don't know and have no way of measuring the safety and long term effects of the treatments. This is not up for debate or an opinion... this is fact. I'd also like to add that these Universities always find a way to have generally favorable results to there studies. None of the docs want to be involved in a study that fails. Do you want to be a hedge fund manager that has a -40% return for the year? Didn't think so. Neither do they. They want to be involved in a successful study so they get more notoriety in the field. The University and the docs associated with it will find a way to show a generally favorable result. TMS is nonsense. Its not only a scam but a dangerous one. If you think you can bang areas of your brain with a strong magnetic without severe side effects your nuts. When they say "Side Effects" they are talking about Dry mouth, constipation, sexual side effects, and bullshit like that. They aren't talking about Brain Damage and Neurological Impairment. That's a whole different thing! They conveniently forget to talk about that one though. 
. 
I usually don't do much posting on here, but when I saw someone inquire about TMS I had to put this out there. I realize it may sound really negative and extreme but its true. Although you may not here about many problems from TMS yet, you eventually will. IT is pretty new and somehow they've found a way of advertising it as safe & harmless but I assure you it isn't. Hope this saves a few of you.


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## peter_ (Nov 10, 2012)

...holy shit. Do you think because it was a clinical study on dp they were doing things differently than the normal treatments on depression sufferers? Could you share with me if they were doing it on the right or left side of the brain and how much strength was used?


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## odisa (Sep 2, 2013)

Normally for depression it's hyperpolarization of the left dorsolateral prefrontal cortex.. The study he's referring to I believe did depolarization to the right temporo-parietal junction, but also allowed for the option of left temporo-parietal junction depolarization if the first did not work. Also I'm not sure whether there was a qEEG done before the treatment commenced? Normally that would provide for insights on which parts of the brain are hyper/hypo active, hence allowing for a more personalized treatment.

I find it a bit odd your story AndyD:



> Trust me they have absolutely no clue what is happening inside your head. They can only guess based on some scientific nonsense that may work in theory but in reality they don't know and have no way of measuring the safety and long term effects of the treatments. This is not up for debate or an opinion... this is fact.


Really..? Throughout literature the safety of rTMS has been discussed and deemed highly safe, and it most certainly is not scientific nonsense. I could understand that if you experienced negative effects of the treatment you'd be upset, but that doesn't make TMS any less of a valid treatment. Also the inclusion of phrases like "Trust me" and "True story", combined with the sensationalist style writing, makes it quite hard to believe. And of course putting TMS off as a scam.

It would help if you could provide more details on the method of the treatment itself. Furthermore.. usually you'd get a qEEG done of your brain before treatment. If no hyper- and/or hypoactivity is shown in the region that will be treated, there's little reason to go through with the treatment, for you would only disrupt the balance instead of correcting it. I'm not sure if the study conducted qEEG's as well.. If not, it was indeed badly flawed.

I don't see any reason why you would lie though, and I'm not saying you are, but without further details on the procedure it will be hard to deduce what exactly went wrong. Things like not doing a qEEG, or improper stimulation intensity, could explain your negative experience. Perhaps the institute in specific did not carry out the procedure correctly. I myself find it a bit concerning that psychologists usually are allowed to treat people with rTMS, rather than neurologists.

As I read the study now, I see no mentions of a qEEG. Inhibition of the rTPJ when not necessary or when it is already hypoactive could indeed result in worsening of DP symptoms. In any case; it would be best to evaluate the institute and their methods before partaking in such an experiment. If you're not familiar with neuroscience; consult a neurologist to advise you.


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## AndyD (Nov 24, 2011)

There was no EEG done prior to the treatments or after the treatments. Maybe I had such a rough time with it because it was done on the right side instead of the left side (FDA approved side). In any case, it really aggravated my DP and gave me a ton of other horrible neurological problems. I should have known better. Anything that has the ability to induce electric currents in your brain has the ability to make you a lot worse. If that particular area of the brain does not need the extra stimulation you are going to have some serious problems. If something has the ability to cause seizures (It is known TMS can induce seizures), it certainly has the ability to cause dissociative like states, memory loss, confusion, and a lot of other undesirable neurological affects that may or may not be easily reversible. Whatever is suggested about the stimulation being only "weak" or being contained to a "localized area" is absolute nonsense. No such thing. Electric currents travel, so whatever area is being stimulated has the ability to trigger other areas of the brain as well.

I think people need to be careful about buying into a lot of these studies that suggest the treatments are relatively safe and/or effective. I'm sure they said Electric Shock Therapy was completely safe when it first came out too! I hope people have a general understanding of how these studies are done, who they are funded by, and how easily the parameters and controls can be manipulated to make the outcome of the study look much safer and effective than it truly is. I am not suggesting a major conspiracy exists in all areas of medicine, but I am suggesting that a lot of the time these studies are easily manipulated and can not be trusted.There are less controls out there than people realize and all the parties involved have one thing in common.... getting something on the market and making as much money as they can. There is very little going on in the way of regulation and oversight.

All i would say is tread cautiously if you are going to try it. I do believe there are certain drugs on the market that can be very effective for DP and other neurological disorders, but I do not believe TMS is a good treatment for anything at all and most importantly I don't think its that safe. I actaully had a talk with Dr. Simeon before I started TMS and she did warn me that it could make DP a lot worse. In my case she turned out to be right.


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## davinizi (Mar 9, 2016)

Hi Andy,

are you still suffering the bad effects of the TMS treatments?

Maybe some supplements (certain amino acids ) and a change in diet (high animal fat) can help to restore brain function..


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