# can you ever be sure that you have DP? (self-diag, docs..)



## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

It's been going around my head for some time now. I will spit it out.

...I read about Depersonalization in a newspaper in 2001. I found this forum in August 2004, and I "broke in" at February 2005. I have read some serious stuff in here, it's a living encyclopaedia for this illness.

The forum did to me something that I don't know if it's good or bad: I am comfurtable with the things (symptoms) that made me feel that I was the only one that had them.

I have also been into this "flat condition" in which I am constantly thinking that all people think like that. While I get those feeling of (stronger than the flat-typical) unreality when into an unknown place, into unknown situations; and my head is spinning a bit while the gravity makes small changes in direction.

I payed a few visits to a doctor during March. The doctor didn't trusted my self-diagnose about DP, and I think that was a right policy (for both of us). Maybe I am comfusing things. But, the cost of the visits was quite big and I wasn't seeing ANYTHING that would lead to cure, so I stoped. I did an experiment though: a fried goes to an psychoanalyst for his anger. I gave him a sheet with a brief description of what I felt. He showed that to the doctor. The doctor said "it doesn't make any sense, maybe this man has depression".

I am thinking about visiting anyther doctor, but I am VERY distrustful, with doctors, especially mental-doctors (psychiatrist, psychoanalyst, etc) because you can't be sure about the result, since it's all in your mind.

To be honest, I don't know if I would be in a worst condition if I haven't read about DP (goint to the doctor didn't actually made any difference). Maybe it would be better. You see folks, I am not sure if I have Depersonalization or Derealization. I felt kind of strange when I read the symptoms in the newspaper in 2001, the descriptions of that article was very close to mine in some parts. The caption of the article was "the experience of not living" and was the same title that I had given to what I felt, even though, it seemed kind of embarrassing telling something like that for myself (felt like a charlatan doctor). But that was back in 2001, and... I don't even remember why I starting writing this message.

I have found IDENTICAL symptoms of mine in this forum, but... the moment that I find a symptom which looks like (or is identical to) mine, at the very same moment, I am having doubts if I have it. It's kind of weird.

Tell me your thoughts.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2005)

I think this way a lot. I wonder if I could just accept it instead of fighting it and rationalizing it, I would start to feel better. It is kind of funny that there a lot of "doctors" out there, that act as though they have never heard of this and don't want to even consider it as a diagnosis, which can only make things worse for people. I don't have an answer or any great advice just wanted to let you know that you are not alone.
Kate


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## Shadow Cat (May 3, 2005)

WhereamI said:


> I think this way a lot. I wonder if I could just accept it instead of fighting it and rationalizing it, I would start to feel better. It is kind of funny that there a lot of "doctors" out there, that act as though they have never heard of this and don't want to even consider it as a diagnosis, which can only make things worse for people. I don't have an answer or any great advice just wanted to let you know that you are not alone.
> Kate


I guess I'm pretty lucky that the first person I went to see for help (a psychologist) actually knows a lot about it.


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

Thanks both of you for replying, a lot. I feared that I went way off-topic. I just don't know what to believe anymore. This is my burden right now:

_I have found IDENTICAL symptoms of mine in this forum, but... the moment that I find a symptom which looks like (or is identical to) mine, at the very same moment, I am having doubts if I have it. It's kind of weird._

..It's not always like this, but.. Heck, I don't even know when it's like this and when it isn't. Is there really a base to hold on and fight??? or at least even observe??

Am I victim of my stupidity? Am I "consuming" symptoms that I hear around and projecting them convincingly? Or just exaggerating about the stuff I think/feel? Somewhere at the end of list, there is a possibility of actually having DP/DR. Hmmm... Maybe I have gone to a level where I can't even describe it, or my ability to describe it gets influenced? Have I got unwilling to even think about the symptoms? Is it just an illusion? Am I just tired right now? Maybe I have managed not to focus on it (most of the times), I get this. Just don't know :|

I don't know how to face it. I wish someone could tell me whether this thought of mine can confirm or disconfirm the presence of DP/DR in me.

There MUST be someone who knows about DP/DR, here in my country. Someone who could tell me if I have DP/DR or not, or anyway why the heck do I think/do/feel the stuff I do, but... how am I supposed to find him/her? ... *telephone ringing*... "Hello, do you know what depersonalization is?"

Sorry, I must have just reapeated what I said in my previous post.


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## ShyTiger (Apr 1, 2005)

Hi ya Brain.
This must be exhusting for u all this thinking and trying to pull everything apart! You must be at this site im thinking because you have related to the posts and stories here?. i know with myself that i experience dp/dr. I dont know if i have dp/dr as a primary dissorder but i do know i have it as an experience. I didnt really feel the need for a diagnosis(i got one given to me anyway)as i kinda thought what do labels matter anyway, for me treatment was the same for everything else i was experiencing. But then again i always knew where mine came from.
I understand that it can be important and reassuring to have a name for what u r going through. 
Can u try and find a doctor/ psychologist that maybe specialises in anxiety or dissasociated states? Is there a referal service you can ring? 
I think maybe you are stuck in a circle of thinking that is doing your head in. Can u take a break from wondering if you have it and just focus on ways you can cope with what u are experiencing??
Its not fun when we turn inside out!
I apologise if i have misunderstood your question im reading and responding to it in a rush to get to my breakfast!


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

What I think might help you right now is to visit a Web site or a library that has information that describes all known mental illnesses and their symptoms.

I say this because it sounds as if you haven't read about any of the other illnesses but DP.

Please remember that depersonalization and derealization are also normal experiences. Everybody feels them from time to time, but they don't last longer than 10 seconds and they don't alarm people.

They are a product of anxiety and panic, in my layman's opinion.

I would recommend doing some research and finding a good psychiatrist, perhaps associated with a university and finding a good therapist.

You definitely need to get help from people who know more about these things than we do.

But use your intellect when you decide with whom you will go into treatment. Choose your doctor as carefully as you can.

And I urge you to read about all the other symptoms so that you are prepared for what the doctor might say to you. Learning about these illnesses and their symptoms will also enable you to see that you may have bene focusing on DP/DR while you really have more in common with depression.

I only found this site because during my panic attacks I was experiencing "depersonalization," and I had no idea what it was. I just typed the word into Google.

I don't think I have DP/DR, except in the midst of a panic attack. You may not, either; you must let the professionals offer you their considered opinions.


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

ShyTiger said:


> Can u take a break from wondering if you have it and just focus on ways you can cope with what u are experiencing??


Well, I though that to beat (or cope) something, you need first to know what it is, so that will know how to treat it. I mean the way you will treat DP is different from the way you will treat schizophrenia (that was an unfortunate comparison intending only to show that diffent disorders need different treatment). This is the only reason I am wondering if I have it.



Sojourner said:


> What I think might help you right now is to visit a Web site or a library that has information that describes all known mental illnesses and their symptoms.
> 
> I say this because it sounds as if you haven't read about any of the other illnesses but DP.
> 
> ...


Yes. The main problem with me is that I am having a hard time understanding English terms. There was a kind fellow here (in this website) who offered helping me with English terms, but I must have at least 100 terms that I need to understand, and I can't defalcate his kind offer.

I learned about DP in a newspaper in my native language. 3 years later I searched online and, among other things, I found this website. I don't think that I would bother searching online about the "bad feelings" if I haven't read that newspaper. I just thought that it was natural, or just flaws of my personality. I should address to the local psychiatrics university and study some books there. Yeah, that would be the smart thing to do.

Thanks.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

For a start, for someone who's native language isn't English, you speak it very, very well Brainsilence. I haven't noticed at all till you pointed it out.

Anyway, from my experience in this country - most GP's, Doctors and associated medical people know about Depersonalisation, or have heard of it, but almost exclusively attribute it as a symptom of Depression or Anxiety. Which, of course, in a lot of cases it is. When you talk to them about Depersonalisation being your primary symptom, _that's_ when they get a bit confused.

A while ago I printed off the front page of this forum (Janines piece) to my GP and showed it to him. He read it, shrugged, and said.."You're depressed."


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

Martinelv said:


> For a start, for someone who's native language isn't English, you speak it very, very well Brainsilence. I haven't noticed at all till you pointed it out.


Too much television... and cinema 



Martinlev said:


> Anyway, from my experience in this country - most GP's, Doctors and associated medical people know about Depersonalisation, or have heard of it, but almost exclusively attribute it as a symptom of Depression or Anxiety. Which, of course, in a lot of cases it is. When you talk to them about Depersonalisation being your primary symptom, that's when they get a bit confused.


That was something I wanted to ask. When is DP a main symptom and a "side effect"? I have no idea if I will manage to find a book modern enough that will document DP sufficiently enough. I will try though.



Martinelv said:


> A while ago I printed off the front page of this forum (Janines piece) to my GP and showed it to him. He read it, shrugged, and said.."You're depressed."


I am not sure if I got the point: he couldn't face/accept DP as your primary symptom or he was ver little aware of DP?

When I first read about DP (2001), I understood that it was both: a producer and a product. But, as a producer, should we just consider it as another defense of the "ego"? (like "projection" for instance)


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## gem (Aug 10, 2004)

I have been under the best nerologist in the country and they diagnosed my depersonalization and derealization disorder. I have found though that I do better on my own than when I was seeing the pyschiatrist. I am able to function better than I used to and I have done most of the work without the help of doctors. The doctors I have though are wonderful I go to them when I feel down or feel discouraged and they tell me to keep doing what I am doing in hope that some day this condition will get better. I trust them completely. They did alot of brain tests before making the diagnosis which is good, they did not ignore the possibilities of other illnessess so they ruled out some and the conclusion was this one. They are very encouraging and very helpful. I have also found the nursing care I recieve in my home helps me tremendously, very supportive and caring. I feel very lucky to have the support I have.

gem.


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2005)

The thing everyone needs to remember is that NO doctor understands where or how any of these mental symptoms function inside the brain.

Honestly, the only mental/emotion symptom that neuropsychiatry has been able to empirically track to any degree is PHYSICAL anxiety - the rapid heartbeat, shortness of breath, dizzy feelings, etc. that result from sudden surges of adrenaline in response to the mind's trigger of "Fight" or "Flight" - the Thought that recognizes danger produces a chemical response within the Central Nervous System that results in the Panic Attack response and also in high degrees of anxiety for extended times.

That's about all they know in terms of where and what is going on inside us when emotional and/or mental experiences cripple us.

Neuroscience is not able to even locate yet where our "Center of Self-Awareness' lies inside the brain - the part of me that KNOWS I am me, the self-referential aspect of being a human....we all know we HAVE one (and we sure know it goes awry in DP) but it is a medical mystery. And the more complicated mental states of rumination and obsessions and chronic anxiety - also mysteries.

Neurologists can pinpoint "loops" of thought patterns that seem to get Locked into motion in Obsessive Compulsive Disorder - where thinking takes on a life of its own and cannot easily be "redirected" but is it literally pathological? It's the SAME kind of obsession and "looping" that artists invoke when deeply into a project - and very similar to a person in love who is obsessed only about seeing "Juliet' by moonlight and the rest of the world be damned. The myriad of mental functions available to us are pathological only SOMEtimes - and there is not any detectable "aha!" point or chemical or action cycle that is different in a "good" (pleasant and ultimately productive) obsession than in a crippling one.

To my mind, the easiest and clearest way of thinking of DP and DR states is that they are altered states of consciousness - like dreaming is an altered state, or hypnosis or self-induced trance. The SENSE of oneself and of one's experience is altered (or askew). Why? from anxiety? from depression? from anticipation? from self-reflection? from drugs? who knows. We simply do not know.

But we know what makes it worse - obsessing and self-monitoring. And we know that NO one dies from DP and it is not leading to insanity and even if it WAS, no amount of WIll Power would prevent the insanity (despite our conviction that we can FORCE ourselves to stay this side of madness).

Over control, obsessiveness, a desperate need to self-watch and compare this moment's self with the self-registry from two minutes earlier. That's the root of why DP lasts, but no one can offer you the Brain's eye view that you THINK would be helpful. In reality, it woudln't do a thing except probably give you somethign else to obsess over. The way out is still going to involve letting go of the terrible habits we all develop in reaction to a catastrophic response from the onset of the dp.


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

JanineBaker said:


> Obsessive Compulsive Disorder


I remember this one. I wouldn't recognised if I haven't read it my native language. It is like "I don't like some of my thoughts, they are painful, I can't make them stop, and they return"? I tend to growl while I tighten my nerve/neur-s in some parts of my body. It temporarily makes it go away. The neck and arms are the casual areas for it (need to be careful infront of other people). I also indulge in tightening during unacceptable sentimental tentions, like crying or self-pity and external one, or some kinds of self-achknowledgement. Other peoples' pity (no matter how small it is) always makes me feel bad. I dont know why.

I get those weird thoughts of doing the most grotesque things: like killing family members, putting my head in the dirt/mud, etc etc Spooky, weird, stuff. Lately I have found something that might help: I say to myself "ok you fool, you are thinking about this? it's not bad actually, would you like to do it?", and I get a "no" in reply. But I don't exercise this one very ofter. I am afraid that I will snap and do something bad. Although it's a working response to those bad-thoughts.



JanineBaker said:


> The SENSE of oneself and of one's experience is altered (or askew). Why? from anxiety? from depression? from anticipation? from self-reflection? from drugs? who knows. We simply do not know.


A defense maybe? Could it be a defense?



JanineBaker said:


> a desperate need to self-watch and compare this moment's self with the self-registry from two minutes earlier


I... must have had that. It's blury. I don't remember well. It I ever had that it's history.

...

Well, to sum it up, it's like I am dead but I keep going. I don't recieve the pleasure that I would like/expect from the world. I am afraid of death and that must have initiated it. Nothing is important, and though the boredom, I cannot anymore distinguish the void; nor can I remember my feelings from years 1998-2004. I think (think, remember, feel, all these words are like a pulp) sometimes I remember some stuff that seem to be my previous descriptions, or my current impression about my then-descriptions. I can't be sure of what I remember. I doubt about what I think and say, it's the subjectivity effect and it could all just an illusion. Can the subject heal himself? Unknown.

I do remember some of my descriptions though, sometimes other people remind them to me (well, only one person knows about this since 2001-2002). And I have this feeling that I have the ability to remember more about what I felt back then, but this ability is buried under tones of tirement and dislike. This could very well be just an illusion.

I am standing on the street, and I have no reason to go forth (keep walking), and I can't find the reason that made me stoped. It happens. Then I remember what I must do, and I keep going, ignoring my tention to stop and quit. Not always like this though.

...babble babble babble...

Heh... Sorry, I need to study those books instead of keep going in here.


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## gem (Aug 10, 2004)

Well the only thing I can say in my case is that the doctors I seen told me that they knew it was dp/dr due to some findings in the brain. Temporal lobe area. I do not know much more than that, they have alot of big words that mean nothing to me. I also know that these doctors have literally help save my life. Whether they know exactly where the dp/dr is in the brain to me did not matter, what mattered is the help and support recieved living in this illness. The brain is a powerful machine that one day maybe we will have more answers. We can all suggest things that it may be or where it came from but no one really knows.

gem.


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

I would be very happy if what I have can be detected with physical examinations. Physical examinations are more solid proof, it doesn't depend that much to the (sometimes... OK, not "sometimes" but "most-of-the-times") subjective rendition of your thoughts (the doctor makes that rendition).


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## Shadow Cat (May 3, 2005)

gem said:


> Well the only thing I can say in my case is that the doctors I seen told me that they knew it was dp/dr due to some findings in the brain. Temporal lobe area. I do not know much more than that, they have alot of big words that mean nothing to me. I also know that these doctors have literally help save my life. Whether they know exactly where the dp/dr is in the brain to me did not matter, what mattered is the help and support recieved living in this illness. The brain is a powerful machine that one day maybe we will have more answers. We can all suggest things that it may be or where it came from but no one really knows.
> 
> gem.


How did they do these tests? Were they able to "fix" anything? I mean, is it possible to fix your temporal lobe area?


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> That was something I wanted to ask. When is DP a main symptom and a "side effect"? I have no idea if I will manage to find a book modern enough that will document DP sufficiently enough


That's one of the biggest questions. DR/DP itself is fairly common - in reaction to extreme stress, that usually fades with time.

Depersonalisation Syndrome seems to be, in my opinion (correct me if I'm wrong) when, for whatever reason, your brain get's 'stuck' or 'conditioned' to the DP state, and becomes a problem in itself. Also, Depersonalisation Syndrome can be a reaction to deeply buried unconscious trauma - with no associated anxiety or depression.



> I am not sure if I got the point: he couldn't face/accept DP as your primary symptom or he was ver little aware of DP?


What I was trying to say was that most GP's don't recognise Depersonalisation Syndrome as a problem in itself. They almost exclusively attribute it to depression or anxiety. You can't blame them really, as they are not experts in mental health, and Depersonalisation Syndrome is, generally, not widely known and more generally misunderstood.


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

Martinlev said:


> Depersonalisation Syndrome seems to be, in my opinion (correct me if I'm wrong) when, for whatever reason, your brain get's 'stuck' or 'conditioned' to the DP state, and becomes a problem in itself. Also, Depersonalisation Syndrome can be a reaction to deeply buried unconscious trauma - with no associated anxiety or depression.





Martinlev said:


> Also, Depersonalisation Syndrome can be a reaction to deeply buried unconscious trauma - with no associated anxiety or depression.


I see. So, appart from getting stuck or conditioned (due to, more expected reasons like anxiety or depression), it also may come from a trauma (psyche's wound). I have read about the Depersonalization Syndrome; it's amazing, that newspaper had so much information in just a few pages, but it didn't had information about it's origin. It didn't even made an suggestion or estimation, but that didn't prevent me from making some of my own.

_get's 'stuck' or 'conditioned'_ ...Did you thought of this yourself? Did you read it in a book? You know, it's strange, but I had the same thought 2.5 - 1.5 years ago. After a while I adandoned because all my thoughts seemed futile. I must have still have it somewhere in my old notes. I will dig them out and find what was my estimations about the reasons that cause the mind to _get's 'stuck' or 'conditioned'_.

I don't know if I am having illusions or actually remembering --by following the fiber/fibril back to the subconcious side-- but... something must have happaned, something that changed the very foundations of perception. A misunderstanding possible because of the way that the human mind/psyche can be manipulated by undiscovered (yet) factors. A misunderstanding caused by enviroment or natural tention. The human is in a transitional stage, and we think we are already in perfection from birth.

...What it *could* be is that I have lost hope of getting rid of it (whatever it may be), I have accepted it as new things order and I, now, mainly, question myself why do I keep complaining that "something doesn't feel well". If this is true, then it's Depersonalization but it's burried under a (self-developed or pre-existing) coping mechanism.

In the order hand, I am not sure of what I say. I have made a relative post a few weeks ago called "the subjectivity effect" (check it here: ). And the point of it was that I am not sure if I am honest, or if I even express correctly my dis-honesty. You will often hear me saying "English is not my native language". Heh... you can even see it in my signature... It's just that talking to another language is engaging more doubts about what I may say. I don't know who I am (but I still doubt if I really don't know who I am), what I say (but I still doubt if I really don't know what I say), and why I am saying this. Sometimes, I don't even know if I-dont-know, I am questioning the lack of understanding itself that brought me in a condition to say (write actually) the "subjectivity effect".. Imagine that... it's funny, someone who doesn't know if he indeed doesn't know. If this one is true, then it doesn't sound like Depersonalization, it had a few common elements with some other peoples' here, but no. Which of cource is the most happy occasion.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

With not a shred of modesty, I came up with the idea myself. But it's only an idea, it's probably simplifying things outrageously. It's just how it seems to me. I'm not sure Janine agree's, and she's more of an authority.



> I see. So, appart from getting stuck or conditioned (due to, more expected reasons like anxiety or depression), it also may come from a trauma (psyche's wound).


Yes, absolutely. The experience of DP can affect almost everyone following some kind of trauma, yet it's usually temporary, or with lengthy remission. The puzzle is why, and how, it develops into a chronic syndrome in itself. I'm sure there are genetic predispositions involved, somewhere along the line, but I really haven't a clue apart from that.


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

Sojourner said:


> What I think might help you right now is to visit a Web site or a library that has information that describes all known mental illnesses and their symptoms.


Do you know such a website? Well, if someone does, please tell me. I am having a problem finding one.


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

http://www.abess.com/glossary.html is a basic glossary of terms.

You might also like these, Brain:

http://www.med.auth.gr/db/dictionary1/gr/
http://www.glossa.com/trans/glossary/glossaries.htm

Search Google for "greek language dictionary of psychiatric terms" (do not use quotation marks -- just type the words without the quotes).


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

One more....

http://www.glossa.com/trans/glossary/glossaries.htm

This one might help you in your learning of new terms (not just psychiatric ones!). ; )


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

Thanks.

PS: I never thought of searching in english and the results I was getting were poor. Thanks for the keywords hint too.


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