# To med, or not to med? (debate topic)



## odisa

Given recent debates surrounding the ethics, safety, etc. of medication (prescription, research, or otherwise) spawning in other threads, and derailing them, I've decided to create this topic to dedicate to such matters. Examples found in such threads include:


Don't take medication, it's poison/unnatural
You should be able to get out of DP without any meds, or else it's not true recovery and you are weak.
It's unethical to research potential new avenues for treatment of dissociation, because you give people false hope.
People have tried a few medications that didn't work and/or gave side-effects, therefore all medication is evil.
Scientists have been working very long on trying to find a cure for DP, yet they have failed, therefore there isn't any to be found.
The one and only true way to recovery is [insert non-pharmacological psychological approach].
Your medication may contain LSD, which may be a government experiment.
Experimenting with non-recreational research chemicals with the intent of reducing symptoms because of reasonable theories so as to why they may do so, is self-abuse and grasping at straws.
Anyone looking for a pharmacological approach to minimize symptoms, is looking for a "magic panacea pill" by default.
Medication only "masks" your symptoms; it can't help you help yourself.
Drugs do not induce DP; they merely trigger it.
Chemicals are bad.

Some guidelines I propose to keep in mind:


*Keep it friendly*. There's nothing more unconvincing and fruitless to a debate, than someone becoming abhorrent when they can't force their views on another person. We're all here to help one another, and a debate for the sake of debate is useless. Ad hominem fallacies and personal attacks do not have a place here. Report if someone is being a phallus.
Capslock does not make you more convincing.
Sarcasm can be very difficult to detect on the internet. Avoid it.
*If you can, cite your sources*. This by itself can prevent a lot of "there's no proof" type of debate. Not necessary for putative knowledge, though it may be, for putative is an adjective that is relative to an individual's exposure to the subject. A tip: Wikipedia is great and all, but it cites other sources; those are the texts you want to read and cite. Note that Wikipedia is still decent for giving a general overview or sense of a topic. Note that news articles are inherently flawed sources, no matter how reputable the news source may be, for they like to over or understate matters, twist words, etc. to fit their needs. A good news article will cite their sources, so that you in turn can use that source instead of the news article.
Ask questions, instead of making assumptions.
Use your best grammar and spelling; a properly formatted text will be much more appealing and coherent to read, than a plaque of text without any punctuation or division.
Remain relevant. Going on a tangent about a minor detail derails from the original topic.
Pay attention to words. For example, "could" doesn't mean "does", as such it is not an absolute claim. Similarly, "help" doesn't mean "cure", and "pharmacological" doesn't mean "pharmacomagical".

Please keep all such discussion inside this topic.


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## Guest

I'll start&#8230; I'd like to ask a few questions.

Do you agree, in most cases, dissociation is a natural function of the mind to protect itself and the body? If so, do you agree other animals display a similar mechanism of protection?

This one's for Odisa&#8230; Odisa, do you think your medication regime has helped or improved the quality of your life? Are you able to get out and be around other people care free?


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## AMUNT

this can be interesting


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## Guest

Many times I've been asked to provide proof of the fact that there is a cure for dp.

Please read these links.

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/44495-questions-people-want-answered-about-dp-some-answers/#entry318721

^ Take note of point 5 in particular.

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/41819-online-therapy-recovered-dp-survivor/#entry298520

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/37859-online-therapy-recovered-dp-survivor/#entry288952


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## Pyrite

The issue is, the more something is medicalized the less likely people are to help themselves.

I've made posts about this before, concerning people labeling any problem they have as a disorder and the negative impact that has on how they handle the situation (there is a source at the bottom) : http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/46336-potential-hazards-of-the-disorder-label-and-viewing-problems-as-interconnected/

In a study with obesity, when people were told it was a disorder they made far less of an effort to make health conscious choices. In that mind set obesity was something inherently wrong with them, which took a way a lot of their responsibility for getting in that situation in the first place, and making it a physical issue as calling it disorder implies also takes a way from a persons sense of control when dealing with certain issues.

This can be extended to anxiety, which is often times a natural response to high stress. They go to the doctor and get labeled with generalized anxiety disorder and handed a prescription, all implying that they are physically ill. In reality, this person was likely having a bad reaction to life stress, but was failing to recognize it do to how normal it was for them to be under that stress. Since they've been given the GAD label and medicine to fix it they have no incentive to explore the matter any further. Even if they were asked about what might be causing them stress, most people would not be able to identify the cause unless it was something obvious, and even if they could it might be something personnel they don't want to admit to. Anxiety and depression are both natural responses to stress and circumstances in life, but the more these issues are medicalizied and labeled as disorders, the less likely people are to explore the actual causes in their life.

With that, when a person has mental issues do to the goings on in their life it can't be said that the person who cleared up anxiety by taking a pill, and the person who made the changes they needed to end anxiety, are on equal footing. One is only handling the symptom of a larger problem and is in the same bad situation, and the other has actively fixed that problem and developed the good habits to stay healthy and overall improved their life. How a person recovers is crucial and not all recoveries are equal. A person who used weight-loss surgery is simply not as healthy as someone who put in the work to loose weight through diet and exercise.

Based off of the hundreds of recovery stories on here it can be seen that in many cases DP/DR can be overcome with the proper mind set. One that encourages people to not be preoccupied with their symptoms, to not feed into it with fear, and to focus on improving their life as a whole.

Please note that I'm not saying ALL cases of anxiety depression and DP/DR have life sources, but anxiety and depression are entirely natural parts of humanity and their is enough evidnence to say that DP/DR can be as well.


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## *Dreamer*

Good post.



Philos said:


> Do you agree, in most cases, dissociation is a natural function of the mind to protect itself and the body? If so, do you agree other animals display a similar mechanism of protection?


This helps me sort out my theory on this again.

1. *Dissociation is a natural function of the mind and I'd guess most people in their lives have dissociated *... and that means in lay terms "clocked out for a while." The perfect example for everyday dissociation is X is driving his car from exit 1 to exit 15. After driving for a while he suddenly realizes that he is at exit 22. His mind was otherwise occupied -- thinking, listening to the radio -- and, well, SOMEONE was driving the car on "autopilot."

X curses himself and turns around to go back 7 miles to the missed exit.

2. *Dissociation can also be seen in animals.* Anxiety is normal. It keeps us aware of danger -- it keeps us alert in a dark alley, etc. It is normal in animals and humans (complex animals IMHO).

When in a situation of being possibly attacked, and animal can go into *fight or flight mode*. That is the animal can fight its attacker, or it can "flee" and fleeing can also be "playing dead."

This is like: "playing possum" -- a possum just balls itself up and waits it out

Or "deer in the headlights" (and this is often NOT successful.) A deer sees a car coming towards it and may "freeze" -- partly out of an instinct to cease all movement so it is not seen. This can work in some situations, but a deer frozen or "dissociated" so to speak on a street could be killed.

---------
My theory on DP/DR is it could be a "stuck on" fight/flight mechanism. An extreme of anxiety. It is a mechanism that is FAULTY. Something has gone wrong with a normal defense mechanism intended to help us (and animals) survive.


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## Pyrite

*Dreamer* said:


> Good post.
> 
> This helps me sort out my theory on this again.
> 
> 1. *Dissociation is a natural function of the mind and I'd guess most people in their lives have dissociated *... and that means in lay terms "clocked out for a while." The perfect example for everyday dissociation is X is driving his car from exit 1 to exit 15. After driving for a while he suddenly realizes that he is at exit 22. His mind was otherwise occupied -- thinking, listening to the radio -- and, well, SOMEONE was driving the car on "autopilot."
> 
> X curses himself and turns around to go back 7 miles to the missed exit.
> 
> 2. *Dissociation can also be seen in animals.* Anxiety is normal. It keeps us aware of danger -- it keeps us alert in a dark alley, etc. It is normal in animals and humans (complex animals IMHO).
> 
> When in a situation of being possibly attacked, and animal can go into *fight or flight mode*. That is the animal can fight its attacker, or it can "flee" and fleeing can also be "playing dead."
> 
> This is like: "playing possum" -- a possum just balls itself up and waits it out
> 
> Or "deer in the headlights" (and this is often NOT successful.) A deer sees a car coming towards it and may "freeze" -- partly out of an instinct to cease all movement so it is not seen. This can work in some situations, but a deer frozen or "dissociated" so to speak on a street could be killed.
> 
> ---------
> My theory on DP/DR is it could be a "stuck on" fight/flight mechanism. An extreme of anxiety. It is a mechanism that is FAULTY. Something has gone wrong with a normal defense mechanism intended to help us (and animals) survive.


I don't think it's faulty, so much as it is trying to handle situations that it can't and gets messed up as a result.

The flight/fight system was meant to handle short periods of physical danger, not drawn out cases of complex emotional stress.

This mechanism is millions of years old and the human mind is only several thousand; so the two have difficulties cooperating.

We can accidentally trigger this response's most extreme capabilities with emotional and life stress, then the reactions scares us and we fuel it with more stress and fear because it cannot distinguish these things as being from an actual threat or self inflicted.

I feel like the system is outdated and incompatible more than it is broken.


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## Pyrite

I'm going to start calling things like this fly paper threads and see if it catches on.

I've always wanted to spawn something like that.


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## odisa

Philos said:


> I'll start&#8230; I'd like to ask a few questions.
> 
> Do you agree, in most cases, dissociation is a natural function of the mind to protect itself and the body? If so, do you agree other animals display a similar mechanism of protection?
> 
> This one's for Odisa&#8230; Odisa, do you think your medication regime has helped or improved the quality of your life? Are you able to get out and be around other people care free?


No, I do not. If so, it would be a very poor defence mechanism; cognition is negatively affected and visual acuity is compromised, as well as spatial awareness (thus motoric function). Reaction time is significantly slower. The only merit I might see, is the lowered pain threshold, however this can also be seen without dissociation in such a situation that would provoke it. These all indicate to me that an individual who is dissociated is more likely to receive injury or death under such circumstances where these skills are most crucial (imminent threats, etc.). I can't comment on animals... I can't say I've ever thought: "Wow, that dog looks dissociated!". Brief and mild dissociation may be normal, but chronic and severe dissociation threatens life from a survivalist perspective, so to speak.

As for medication; I don't exactly have a regime. Yes, I've used certain substances that have aided my sociability and have eased my anxiety, but always to a marginal degree. Keep in mind, however, that I also have HPPD, not just DP/DR. No, currently I do not leave the house if not absolutely necessary, for last year I partook in cocaine 3 days in a row, after which my symptoms were quite drastically aggravated (and, alas, have remained so), and I developed a new one: agoraphobia. Prior to that, however, I did go outside, and I did see friends and family. In those instances, sometimes certain substances have helped, most of which are listed on my profile page.


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## *Dreamer*

> I don't think it's faulty, so much as it is trying to handle situations that it can't and gets messed up as a result.


Well, we are really saying the same thing. The system has been overwhelmed/overloaded and does not function correctly. If it continues to work improperly (or doesn't "shut off") and interferes with social and occupational functioning and quality of life ... it isn't working properly. Perhaps "faulty" is not exactly the correct word -- but it is like a broken leg -- which can be repaired, but you can't walk on it, or depend on it to do what it is supposed to do.



> The flight/fight system was meant to handle short periods of physical danger, not drawn out cases of complex emotional stress.


Exactly. It is a protective mechanism we need to survive. In normal use it works well in humans and animals. But if the system is constantly stressed it can "go awry" ... I liken it to a computer with too many tabs open and too much running at once. At some point, the computer freezes or crashes. That is a problem. It may be easily fixed, or perhaps not depending on a number of factors.



> This mechanism is millions of years old and the human mind is only several thousand; so the two have difficulties cooperating.


Here we have to agree to disagree. I believe in evolution. I believe humans are complex animals. The human mind is full of eons of instincts.
In a society of hunter/gatherer, things may have been less complex, but history has presented humans with more and more complex problems.

Also the big difference with humans is:
1. We are self-aware.
2. We are aware of our mortality

Though studies on animals question the degree of self-awareness in animals ... especially the great apes ... I see a pattern that would indicate we still operate on an instinctual/survival level. As culture advances we have to try to attempt to match our instincts to change.

Also, in Jane Goodall's research of chimps, she observed altruistic behavior, murder, war, cannibalism, and a variety of qualities we see in ourselves as humans.



> We can accidentally trigger this response's most extreme capabilities with emotional and life stress, then the reactions scares us and we fuel it with more stress and fear because it cannot distinguish these things as being from an actual threat or self inflicted.


Using the example of dogs that assist in the military. Some dogs become so overwhelmed by the extended stress of war they can develop PTSD (the dog version -- startle response, fear in normal situations, avoidance, becoming very shy). You couldn't say the dog is "scared of its feelings" -- it has been conditioned to expect the worst. It hears explosions, loud noises, sees mayhem, etc. It gets overly fatigued.

Excessive stress leads to a "break down" of the system. *The diathesis-stress model. This does not mean the system cannot be repaired, but even with dogs who have been abused/beaten, it can take years for them to feel more comfortable amongst humans, etc.*



> I feel like the system is outdated and incompatible more than it is broken.


Let's say that humans have different stressors from animals. We are concerned about survival in that we must work. We must interact within social constraints. Our survival is not hunting for meat, it's maintaining a job while raising a family. We procreate, we work to support our legacy.

Then I might say, OK, it would be outdated like say a computer that originally was only needed for simple tasks. If the hardware and software are dedicated (as there are many parts of the human brain dedicated to certain instinctual functions -- for thousands of years - as with all animals) at some point the computer won't run properly when presented with more complex problems.

We are slowly updating our "hardware and software." Evolution is continuous. We are evolving as we speak.

However, we carry with us thousands of years of HARDWARE in our brain. I'd say humans have adapted astonishingly well. I'm surprised we aren't extinct, LOL.


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## texas2006

To be honest, meds probably saved my life back when I was in college. I couldn't sleep, couldn't concentrate, and was completely miserable for 3-4 years before i found something that helped with some symptoms. I am not on those particular meds anymore and wasn't on anything for a few years before a bad breakup caused another episode. I still sleep well and can concentrate reasonably enough so I'm sure it will dissipate shortly.

There have also been many instances of people who are on Lamictal + SSRI + Klonopin or whatever that are recommended as treatments for DP/DR when nothing else seems to work (by DP/DR experts mind you).

If your DP/Dr is a result of some sort of unresolved emotional trauma and you can get over it without meds, then that is definitely the preferable route. Doing herbal teas or any other junk remedy is way of telling yourself you don't have a serious mental disorder. This thing is a monster.

Here's the final conclusion in my opinion: dont' medicate if you are happy with your life with some sort of DP/DR or if it is a result of unresolved emotional trauma that counseling helps. If its not and you don't want it anymore, there are a few treatments that work on a certain percentage of the population to at least make it not so miserable if not resolve most of the symptoms and let you live a normal life.


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## Pyrite

The problem is that most people decide if the psychological approach applies to them based on what very little they know about psychology. It took me a while to understand it enough to see that it did apply to me and even more to see how, this took months. I guarantee most people here have never had to take even a basic psychology or mental health course, so this is something that takes self education.

The reality is that most people don't know if they have psychological issues or not, and they give up trying to figure it out far to quickly.

On the other hand, medication offers the chance at instant gratification that requires little work or understanding of what's going on.


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## *Dreamer*

odisa said:


> No, I do not. If so, it would be a very poor defence mechanism; cognition is negatively affected and visual acuity is compromised, as well as spatial awareness (thus motoric function). Reaction time is significantly slower. The only merit I might see, is the lowered pain threshold, however this can also be seen without dissociation in such a situation that would provoke it. These all indicate to me that an individual who is dissociated is more likely to receive injury or death under such circumstances where these skills are most crucial (imminent threats, etc.). I can't comment on animals... I can't say I've ever thought: "Wow, that dog looks dissociated!". Brief and mild dissociation may be normal, but chronic and severe dissociation threatens life from a survivalist perspective, so to speak.


Odisa,
I am disagreeing here as you seem to have HPPD which is not what I would call "normal dissociation" or even the dissociation that I have (without drug use) or from a hit of pot.

Granted, the dissociative symptoms (such as chronic DP/DR) are not helpful in any way, and I don't see them as having any benefit.

*Normal* filght/flight benefits animals and humans. What we have here IMHO, and in MY life, has only caused everything I do to be a batlle.

I can only say, for those who have been in near catastrophes they tend to dissociate. I give the example of my husband, who was avoiding getting hit head on by a woman who had passed out at the wheel of a car. She had already struck a number of cars and was heading straight towards him.

He said he felt things move in slow motion, and he felt NO anxiety. He felt on "autopilot" his focus was COMPLETELY on saving his own life. He had no time to think of anything else. This intense unemotional focus allowed him to focus purely on getting out of the situation, which he did, by avoiding this oncoming car and striking another car.

AFTERWARDS, he was a wreck. THEN the adrenaline kicked in and he was shaking and his heart pounding. He felt sick to his stomach. During such events blood flows directly to the brain to enhance quick thinking and actions to save one's life. This blood flow to the brain, hinders digestion, and I THINK -- not sure, closes blood vessels to keep one from bleeding should they be injured. I can't be clear on that last statement.

Dissociation -- that is a disconnect from his emotions -- fear/anxiety, etc. -- and total focus on the event saved his life.

This also happens with people who fled the WTC on 9/11 -- thinking of nothing but getting out. Also, "feeling this was a movie" -- just running and running and running. Also survivors of plane crashes. Just run like Hell. Sometimes someone after such an event can find themselves at quite a distance from the disaster and not really recall how they got there, though they KNOW they just ran like Hell.

In your case, I would say HPPD can have dissociation with it, but the other symptoms are not part of "fight/flight."

There is a difference in diagnosis. IMHO.


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## *Dreamer*

Sully Sullenberger (sp?) who landed a commercial jet in the Hudson River -- he was the consummate pilot -- and he also used these techniques. I recall someone asking him, "Did you pray?" He answered, "I had seconds to make decisions, there was not a moment to pray, to think of my life, of my family." My focus was 100% on figuring "How do I get this plane landed safely? How do I save everyone onboard."

That is a healthy fight/flight response in action. Granted this man was a life-long commercial pilot who said, "Everything I learned over my career, led me to this day." But once the plane was in the water, his focus shifted strictly again to getting the passengers out.

He had no time to contemplate ANYTHING else. It took him days/weeks/months to FEEL about what had happened.


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## Funky Buddha

Personally, I believe that both medication and non-medication techniques can be used in combination with each other to get rid of DP/DR. Like I and others keep saying, DP/DR is caused by multiple triggers and one method alone won't work unless you're lucky. By having a combination of medication and non medication (e.g. Exercise, healthy diet, no MSG, artificial ingredients, removal of metals, toxins etc etc) your body would be able to function at its best.

Meh.. I'll write out a little guide or something when I get five minutes. It'll take a long time, so it should be ready by tomorrow. But, I don't think any method should be chucked to the side because they're all proven to work some way or another. 

Peace!


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## Guest

Trouble is&#8230; many people expect or hope that meds are going to heal their dp. It's not. It never has. Sure maybe one day in the future, but as it stands right now, nope, no pill is going to make that go away.


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## Guest

Selig said:


> What? People have recovered with the help of medication. Where did you ever get this notion?


Please don't read things into what I said.

i said, meds will not heal people from dp. Meds do not stop people dissociating. Healing from dp or any dissociative disorder is through psychology. It's a 'thinking' disorder. Healing is done from 'the inside out'. It's about retraining your brain in it's responses. No pill is going to do that. It's through teaching. I'm not saying you must see a psychologist either. A lot of people successfully 'work' on themselves through education.

I'm not saying don't take meds. Hell, I did. I used meds to help with my insomnia, with success. But meds will only treat accompanying illnesses, ie insomnia, anxiety, depression, etc etc. Unfortunately meds often/usally exacerbate the symptoms of dissociation. How many times have we heard this&#8230; I took my meds and my dp went through the roof? It's a balancing act. Take your choice, less anxiety (for example) and worse dp, or stay with lower level dp and anxiety?


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## Guest

odisa said:


> No, I do not. If so, it would be a very poor defence mechanism; cognition is negatively affected and visual acuity is compromised, as well as spatial awareness (thus motoric function). Reaction time is significantly slower. The only merit I might see, is the lowered pain threshold, however this can also be seen without dissociation in such a situation that would provoke it. These all indicate to me that an individual who is dissociated is more likely to receive injury or death under such circumstances where these skills are most crucial (imminent threats, etc.). I can't comment on animals... I can't say I've ever thought: "Wow, that dog looks dissociated!". Brief and mild dissociation may be normal, but chronic and severe dissociation threatens life from a survivalist perspective, so to speak.
> 
> As for medication; I don't exactly have a regime. Yes, I've used certain substances that have aided my sociability and have eased my anxiety, but always to a marginal degree. Keep in mind, however, that I also have HPPD, not just DP/DR. No, currently I do not leave the house if not absolutely necessary, for last year I partook in cocaine 3 days in a row, after which my symptoms were quite drastically aggravated (and, alas, have remained so), and I developed a new one: agoraphobia. Prior to that, however, I did go outside, and I did see friends and family. In those instances, sometimes certain substances have helped, most of which are listed on my profile page.


Odisa, what is dissociation in you opinion? In your opinion what's the purpose of our ability to dissociate?

We are animals too. No reason why our instincts would differ from the animal kingdom's in the way of the ability to dissociate.


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## *Dreamer*

I have said this yet again. Had DP/DR experiences around age 4 or 5 that weren't scary. DP/DR and anxiety got worse through childhood and teen years. By the time I was a teen I had DP/DR most of the time. 365 days a year, in my dreams. Anxiety and depression as well. Was diagnosed in 1975 with DPD, anxiety, depression.

Was in extensive psychotherapy and psychoanalysis which both helped me work through abuse, but there was no change in the DP/DR. I planned to kill myself by age 30. Down to the last detail.

By chance, a founding member of the ISSMPD at the time suggested I try Klonopin. It brought me back to the reality -- not completely, but enough that I had some hope and could better engage in therapy. He still works with trauma patients/dissociation at Sheppard Pratt.

I would not be typing this if it weren't for Klonopin. I am still on it. I am not cured. It has improved the quality of my life.
Other meds help with a slight mood disorder and depression.

Many brain disorders are not CURED with a medication. An individual can get significant relief and improve quality of life.

Experts really do not understand the full mechanisms of DP/DR or many other brain disorders. And this is true about many medical disorders.

And medication, herbal remedies, etc. have been used for centuries. Nowadays we don't drill holes in peoples' skulls to "let the demons out."


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## Pyrite

Selig said:


> Pharmacological intervention is often required when psychotherapy such as CBT isn't successful on its own. I do not believe every person can be relieved from dissociation from therapy alone.
> 
> Lamotrigine, Clonazepam, KOr agonists all show promise in reducing symptoms and helping people recover.


This issue goes both ways, there are a lot of people who need or could benefit from psychotherapy who will not try it simply because medication is easier to exploit.

People will always take the easier option unless they have a reason or incentive to try something harder.


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## *Dreamer*

A must read book by V.S. Ramachandran, a neurologist who studies all manner of altered states of consciousness, as well as phantom limb pain, etc. This is an excerpt from his book: A Brief Tour of Human Conscousness.

_"But there's another disorder, a sort of mini-Cotard's that's much more commonly seen in clinical practice ... It's called Derealisation and Depersonalisation. It's seen in acute anxiety, panic attacks, depression and other dissociative states. Suddenly the world seems completely unreal - like a dream. Or you may feel that you are not real - Doctor, I feel like a zombie. Why does this happen? As I said, it's quite common._

_I think it involves the same circuits as Capgras and Cotard's. You've all heard of the phrase, playing possum. An opossum when chased by a predator suddenly loses all muscle tone and plays dead. Why? This is because any movement by the possum will encourage the predatory behaviour of the carnivore - and carnivores also avoid dead infected food. So playing dead is very adaptive for the possum._

*Following the lead of Martin Roth and Sierra and Berrios, I suggested Derealisation and Depersonalisation and other dissociative states are an example of playing possum in the emotional realm. And I'll explain. It's an evolutionary adaptive mechanism. Remember the story of Livingstone being mauled by a lion.*

_He saw his arm being ripped off but felt no pain or even fear. He felt like he was detached from it all, watching it all happen. The same thing happens, by the way, to soldiers in battle or sometimes even to women being raped. During such dire emergencies, the anterior cingular in the brain, part of the frontal lobes, becomes extremely active. This inhibits or temporarily shuts down your amygdala and other limbic emotional centers, so you suppress potentially disabling emotions like anxiety and fear - temporarily. But at the same time, the anterior cingular makes you extremely alert and vigilant so you can take the appropriate action._

_Now of course in an emergency this combination of shutting down emotions and being hyper-vigilant at the same time is useful, keeping you out of harm's way. It's best to do nothing than engage in some sort of erratic behaviour. But what if the same mechanism is accidentally triggered by chemical imbalances or brain disease, when there is no emergency. You look at the world, you're intensely alert, hyper-vigilant, but it's completely devoid of emotional meaning because you've shut down your limbic system. And there are only two ways for you to interpret this dilemma. Either you say the world isn't real - and that's called Derealisation. Or you say, I'm not real, I feel empty - and that's called Depersonalisation._

_Epileptic seizures originating in this part of the brain can also produce these dreamy states of Derealisation and Depersonalisation. And, intriguingly, we know that during the actual seizure when the patient is experiencing Derealisation, you can obtain a Galvanic Skin Response and there's no response to anything. But once he comes out of the seizure, fine, he's normal. And all of this supports the hypothesis that I'm proposing."_

©V.S. Ramachandran, M.D., Ph.D.

From the Transcript of The 2003 BBC Reich Lecture later expanded into the book:

A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness

Pi Press, 2004


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## Guest

Selig said:


> Pharmacological intervention is often required when psychotherapy such as CBT isn't successful on its own. I do not believe every person can be relieved from dissociation from therapy alone.
> 
> Lamotrigine, Clonazepam, KOr agonists all show promise in reducing symptoms and helping people recover.


What you're talking about is temporary 'relief' from the symptoms. You're totally ignoring the root cause of the dissociation in the first place. I could take some heroin and guarantied that would reduce my symptoms. But it's not healing me it's just a temporary panacea, b/c it'll just come straight back the minute the drug wears off. It's not tackling the underlying issues of why it appeared in the first place.

Even if these drugs show promise for some. 'Showing promise' is a bit wishy washy imo. Studies into the efficacy of these drugs for treatment of dissociation is still in the primary stage of testing. Personally I wouldn't be holding my breath here. In the meantime, there're are many other techniques to help.

How many people have tried a herbal or natural medication approach to this before going for the pharma meds? Not many as far as I can see. Why? Pharma meds are full of bad side effects.. One of course being, you're disocciation will probably get worse. Weird choice imo...


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## *Dreamer*

*Meant to add. I really have no idea why anyone would judge another person on how they choose to maintain their health or try to improve the quality of their lives.*

I recall the loss of Steve Jobs. He was always into alternative health remedies, diet, etc. He got pancreatic cancer. His doctors insisted he begin chemotherapy once he was diagnosed. He refused. He wanted to try a holistic approach to healing his cancer. Unfortuantely it didn't work. He later tried chemotherapy, too late, and as we know died.

HOWEVER -- I would NEVER have told Steve Jobs (or anyone else for that matter) how to find their path to wellness. It is his body. It is his life. He was not an ignorant person. I have respect for that.

As long as individuals know risk/benefit re: ANY medication or treatment and make informed decisions. I have no clue why anyone else would judge.

Jobs was quite aware that chemotherapy can kill you. He made a decision regarding life and death. Yes, I have tremendous respect for that. And I have also had cancer.


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## Guest

Selig said:


> Philos, do you believe that transient dissociation cannot become pathological from the experience of it alone? Or do you believe there must be a past trauma present in order for it to manifest chronically?





Selig said:


> Philos, do you believe that transient dissociation cannot become pathological from the experience of it alone? Or do you believe there must be a past trauma present in order for it to manifest chronically?


I don't know what you mean in the first sentence.. brain's getting ready for outing to shopping complex..

Ohh Selig you're trying to trap me into saying something stupid (again lol) .. but NO, we all know a past trauma is NOT required for dp to manifest..


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## *Dreamer*

> Pharma meds are full of bad side effects.. One of course being, you're disocciation will probably get worse. Weird choice imo...


I don't understand this comment. As I noted above, my DP/DR improved significantly from Klonopin, when I had been sick for a good 25 years before that, and through extensive therapy -- and again, I mean Freudian psychoanalysis.

My DP/DR GOT BETTER from the medication. NOT worse. And I continue with a holistic approach involving meds/therapy/exercise, etc., etc., etc.

And re: alternative therapies -- these are drugs as well. My friend's mother was very depressed for some years. She started with St. John's Wort which is a rather potent alternative medication. But after a long time she needed more help. She went to a psychiatrist. He should have ASKED her about the St. John's Wort as she didn't mention it. He put her on an SSRI.

In short order her blood pressure was through the roof. The combination of the two drugs, yes, drugs together caused severe hypertension. She had to go off everything. She could have died of a stroke. It was as if she was taking double the amount of the prescribed medication.


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## Pyrite

Selig said:


> Which is why a multifaceted approach to depersonalization is best. Why should pharmacological intervention not take place for those resistant to psychotherapy, or at the very least an augmentation?
> 
> Like Dreamer, intensive therapy has been unsuccessful. I was open and cooperative and working with intelligent, capable professionals. The damage done to me could not be reversed through talk therapy- it had a massive impact on me and shaped me into a nervous wreck.
> 
> I could only live a semi-normal life at this point with medication. Without it, I would have to apply for disability and waste away at home as I did before. I am aware of trauma and have processed it. I have spoke at great length about it and realize how it affected me. It was not enough.


Like I said, this works in reverse. People who believe they have a physical ailment, true or not, aren't going to want to engage in psychotherapy.


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## Guest

Selig said:


> I don't believe you can make claims on medication until you are knowledgable in how dissociation affects the brain. I've researched both angles.


I think a big (often ignored) part of the problem is.. it's how dissociation affects your mind. I don't see it as a physical thing with your brain. I see my 'mind' and the complex difficulties it faces. Many DID people can do that. We can 'see' into our minds and the way they're constructed (to a point). We can 'see' the issues. That gives me a huge advantage when tackling the 'lower end of the threshold dissociative disorders' such as dp/dr. A good therapist just sits there while we explain the 'issues' with our minds then they help to steer us in the right direction with suggestions of how to rearrange our responses&#8230;.

Pheww.. don't know where that came from?  I like it though.. does it make any sense?


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## *Dreamer*

Oh, I was pondering this today. OK, "Big Pharma" wants money. Do you think that a drug dealer doesn't want money!? I am again, astonished by the risks people take, and what they pay, for rec drugs. At least I know what I'm getting in my Rx pills. Also, being all generic and I have good health insurance, my medications cost virtually nothing.

Also, many Pharmaceutical companies here in the US will assist in paying for medications (particularly for those with schizophrenia, etc.) if they are unable to pay.

But again, I don't judge people who experiment with rec drugs .. tell them they are ignorant, or attack them. It is their choice. However, I am always concerned if someone is impaired and gets into an automobile. And we have laws for that. I don't care to get struck by a drunk driver.
Also, it is unfortunate that those on meth, heroin, etc. lose their lives entirely to the drug. Makes a lot of money for drug cartels, gangs, etc.


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## *Dreamer*

There is a big reason why many people avoid seeking psychiatric treatment. Stigma. It exists today. Many feel great shame if they feel anxious, depressed, DP whatever. Many cannot afford psychiatric treatment.

As Selig noted, I have had doctors recommend all sorts of meds ... one I have sat on the fence for for years is Abilify. For all I know it could help me a LOT. However, in weighing risk/benefit, I have said no.

Education is power.


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## Pyrite

Selig said:


> People need to do their own research and think critically. This helps prevent medication being crammed down your throat. Doctors would not medicate me until psychotherapy proved refractory.
> 
> A stand in psychiatrist tried to prescribe me venlafaxine not too long ago. I laughed and declined. I believe people should be well informed about medication and it should not be used as the immediate treatment if possible.
> 
> I am not a pill pusher. I do not believe there is a pill for everything. But from experience and research, I have no reason to believe medication is not a viable option in recovery from depersonalization.


The problem is convincing people not to immediately jump to a medical explanation for their problems, which people are more and more inclined to do.

Psychological education is crap in most places, most people who have panic attacks don't even know what they are. The first time I heard that word was when I was watching a cartoon at 10 years old, and then never again until I took a psychology elective in my second year of biomedical technology.

It's hard enough to keep physical health classes in school, so I doubt having mental health classes could be possible, but we seriously need them.

A lot of people jump straight to medicalizing their problems because they just don't know any better.


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## Guest

Selig said:


> If past trauma does not have to be present, then what underlying issues are you referring to? An inability to properly deal with stress?


I have no idea Selig. Some people get dp from physical brain damage, others from antibiotics. I don't know why though. I think you're spending too much time trying to trap me into saying 'all dp comes from trauma'? Please, we both know it doesn't. Lets just talk about the majority of dp cases huh? And indeed they do stem from trauma. Agreed? I think we can safely talk about dissociation in general terms without individual cases and history, don't you reckon?.

I want to talk more when I get back.. cheers.


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## Pyrite

Right now the only easily accessible sources of information about the psychological approach on this forum are fearless's blog, a page Solomon made on trauma and a link to Harris's program mixed in with other things. Everything else has been buried, and a lot of it was very helpful and thought invoking.

We need the people who know about it to make more threads about psychotherapy, and we need to revive some of the older ones and move them to the psychotherapy section where they can help people.


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## Pyrite

Selig said:


> Anybody who see threads that belong in the psychotherapy section are free to send them to a moderator to be moved.


I'll have to spend some time dumpster diving, then.


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## Pyrite

Selig said:


> Just don't dredge up my questionable past as a 'street performer' in Salvador, Brazil.


If you didn't want anyone to look you shouldn't have said anything =P I'm curious now~


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## *Dreamer*

LOL


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## *Dreamer*

What is important is there ARE resources available. It is up to all of us to share information with others, with our doctors ... heck I go into a new resident's office with flyers, books, my website URL and my business card. Some are fascinated, some are insulted. I don't care.

Re: info on the Trauma angle:

This organization is one of the centers of the psychoanalytical approach for dissociation and trauma: http://www.isst-d.org/










Young people have been educated on Uni campus' and in high schools by Active Minds. I have helped raise money for this group. Young people with a variety of issues who can speak with OTHER kids with the same issues. Peer to peer help, advice and referrals for help.

http://www.activeminds.org/

There is also a goal through NAMI and other organizations to have more extensive classes on the brain. This could be in biology class. When I was in high school (grad 1976) I had a few electives my senior year. One was psychology. I however went to a private school. We read Freud, Jung, etc.

See this video on how Active Minds, Minding Your Mind, etc. help young people. All of us have to participate and spread the word. This is a huge passion of mine as I had NONE of these resources growing up in the 60s/70s/80s. Things slowly started changing in the 90s and really within the last 10 years. Obviously in great part due to the internet.

Please watch:


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## odisa

Philos said:


> Odisa, what is dissociation in you opinion? In your opinion what's the purpose of our ability to dissociate?
> 
> We are animals too. No reason why our instincts would differ from the animal kingdom's in the way of the ability to dissociate.


I think there are various flavours, intensities, etc. of dissociation, and it is an inherently ambiguous term which many find hard to describe. Words simply fall short of describing it. Taken literally, dissociation is the loss of association (of the senses), whether this be of the self, the environment, or both. It is the anxious component to it - the fear and sensation of not being in control of it - that makes it ever so more debilitating. Purposely invoked dissociation is very different from the sort we suffer of. I don't think dissociation serves any purpose, evolutionary or otherwise.

There are plenty of reasons why our instincts would differ from other animals, but let's not go further in to that. I don't think animals are relevant to the discussion.


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## mindfulnessbl

ATTENTION, I Toke citalopram plus lamotrigine in 2008, 80% OF MY DP Symptoms were gone, I came off over a year ago, I back to square one, in fact I have gone back to the same place I started with. whatever lamotrigine did, it was a fucking good med, but as soon as I came off I was back to square one.

sodium channel blocker whatever that is, and it help with dp to a high degree on 75mg, plus 10mg citolapram, no more as wiki says people have dropped dead ie there hearts just stopped, and me being into exercise, i though high dosage and running did not mix

horray for meds NOT


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## mindfulnessbl

Oh yes, and I fucked if I will go on meds for thes rest of my life, yes then I will get Alziembers from the damage they do to neurons and there is proof of this

patient started ssri, within 3 days patient has swollen nerve terminals and his neurons resembled alzimbers patients. yes ssri are so great. no they fuck yourbody up big time, i mean big time.

but if you willing to pay the price to get be happier then...


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## mindfulnessbl

no selig,I am just angry tonight as my dp is gone wild. sorry for that.

the truth is I did a tone of reseach as well as speak to a guy in the states who told me some serious stuff about the meds. he sent me all the lab test for ssri and what they did to the body over time, especially the brain.

but i think its peoples right to take meds, just like its people right to smoke, even though smoking kills etc

but coming of lamotiringe was like stepping though a door, you dont relise how dissociated one is when you come of this med, its very noticable to me.

let me describe, everything in life was familiar as I new it, when I came off, the places, the world, my self it was very different.


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## mindfulnessbl

selig

http://www.wellnessresources.com/studies/ssri_antidepressants_do_more_harm_than_good


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## mindfulnessbl

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3334530/


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## mindfulnessbl

http://www.newsinferno.com/researcher-warns-ssri-antidepressants-side-effects-may-include-digestive-problems-worsening-depression/


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## Guest

Selig said:


> Yes- no entrapment. I am trying to get an idea of your angle on dissociation. Many cases have shown to have traumatic pasts, I agree.
> 
> I respect both your opinions and don't feel the need for others to have to share my opinion. If anything, conversation like this is good.


My angle of dissociation.. I suppose I see it very much from the perspective of the basic medical definition of it.. I'll find it and paste it..

From the issd.org webpage...

*What is dissociation?*

Dissociation is a word that is used to describe the disconnection or lack of connection between things usually associated with each other. Dissociated experiences are not integrated into the usual sense of self, resulting in discontinuities in conscious awareness (Anderson & Alexander, 1996; Frey, 2001; International Society for the Study of Dissociation, 2002; Maldonado, Butler, & Spiegel, 2002; Pascuzzi & Weber, 1997; Rauschenberger & Lynn, 1995; Simeon et al., 2001; Spiegel & Cardeña, 1991; Steinberg et al., 1990, 1993). In severe forms of dissociation, disconnection occurs in the usually integrated functions of consciousness, memory, identity, or perception. For example, someone may think about an event that was tremendously upsetting yet have no feelings about it. Clinically, this is termed emotional numbing, one of the hallmarks of post-traumatic stress disorder. Dissociation is a psychological process commonly found in persons seeking mental health treatment (Maldonado et al., 2002).

Dissociation may affect a person subjectively in the form of "made" thoughts, feelings, and actions. These are thoughts or emotions seemingly coming out of nowhere, or finding oneself carrying out an action as if it were controlled by a force other than oneself (Dell, 2001). Typically, a person feels "taken over" by an emotion that does not seem to makes sense at the time. Feeling suddenly, unbearably sad, without an apparent reason, and then having the sadness leave in much the same manner as it came, is an example. Or someone may find himself or herself doing something that they would not normally do but unable to stop themselves, almost as if they are being compelled to do it. This is sometimes described as the experience of being a "passenger" in one's body, rather than the driver.

I see that as a pretty accurate view of what dissociation is. This line in particular says it well I think.. 'In severe forms of dissociation, disconnection occurs in the usually integrated functions of consciousness, memory, identity, or perception.' There's a reason I brought up DID before and that's b/c I wanted to talk about the fragmentation and disconnection side of it. With my DID, I have the distinct knowledge of the fact that my mind is fragmented and dissociated. As I said, "I can see it." This is not uncommon for ppl with DID btw. The big difference is, we needed the ability to access very deep levels of our minds to escape the horrific trauma and that's how we learnt to 'physically' separate the different 'parts' (emotions, thoughts, actions). The different parts then go off and live separate lives. I've talked to others who have very similar experiences. Both, people with DID and DP are dissociated, we both experience the fragmentation side of it, and the disconnection as well. Many many people talk about being disconnected/detached from emotions here.. ie, I feel emotionally numb, (Emotions being disconnected/detached from the conscious mind.) I've had a lot of 'numb' in the past. Not much anymore tho.. If I do, I go in search of the reason.

I'm not sure? DO people with dp ever visualise the fragmentation of their minds?

There's a reason I brought up DID and it's not b/c I want pity or sympathy. I don't need either, I'm quite ok about being a multiple&#8230; it get's back to pharma meds and what dissociation is. The fact is can I sense and see the fragmentation of my dissociated mind b/c I have distinct parts and alters (again this is common for ppl with DID). I'm thinking about the meds that dull you (the suppressants, depressants, 'mood stabilizers' etc (don't tear me up for the loose terms, I'm not up with the proper terminology)). They limit your ability to access the deeper parts of your mind, and that's no good for the work that lies ahead to heal (if you're dp comes from trauma). From my journey so far I've learnt, in order to heal the dissociative disorderedness, I need to ask questions internally. As an example, if I get triggered, I need to ask 'inside' "why am I scared of that? What's there to fear and then work on that. It can take weeks to get an answer, but it'll come someday if you're inquisitive. It's the same as anybody 'having a little internal conversation'. Why do I (or anybody with a dissociative disorder) need to ask these sorts of questions? It's b/c if a dissociative person gets triggered over and over all day, they're useless and lead a dysfunctional life. They turn emotionally numb, depressed, anxious and stressed. That's a very poor quality of life which is impossible to break out of unless the triggers are dealt with, after all the triggers are exacerbating or even causing this disconnectedness. The list of triggers for different people is endless, it's a personal journey. I've been there, don't worry... Medication will not hunt out your triggers and work on them. Meds can make you stuck and dulled, and unable to access the parts of 'you' that you need to unlock to get out of the 'maze' dissociation is. They can't 'nut out' your problems and remove your triggers, in fact they make it harder. If anyone can prove me wrong, go for it. I'm here to learn and get other views too.

Before I get slaughtered LOL.. I say meds can play a part, but they can't heal you. If you've gotta take meds, do it short term while you're working on the problem that's causing you to react like this, or if things get too extreme and you can't handle it. But don't expect them to do the work so don't do them for years. How can a med target a trigger anyway? Who knows, maybe one day, but not today that's for sure. And I honestly, I think experimenting on yourself with virtually unknown meds is, kind of weird, and needs some attention to address the issues around that. I mean, one of the drugs being talked about here actually grows brain tissue? Is that right? Man, that's weird!

Don't turn into one of these people who are stuck on meds, unable to access the deeper parts of you, unhealthy and triggered constantly b/c that's a really depressing existence We all deserve better than that. None of us ever did anything wrong, why do we deserve to feel like shit?

As a lot of people said, they're lots of ways to tackle dp. Herbal stuff, psychotherapy, EMDR, hypnotherapy, meditation etc. So why not start with the ones that don't have all the possibly bad and damaging side effects. Look after your body b/c if it's functioning like crap you'll feel like crap too. And why continue to take a med that not working or making you feel worse. You know how you feel better than any doctor.

Please note I'm only talking about dp b/c of trauma.


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## *Dreamer*

*Philos,* when you say you have DID -- Dissociative Identity Disorder -- that is IMHO not the same as DP/DR. It involves loss of memory for events.
I've also mentioned that the new DSM-5 has redefined this section, and the question still remains if DP/DR Disorder should remain in the category as it involves NO amnesia.

From the Merck Manual, a clearer definition of dissociative disorders in general (again IMHO), updated by Daphne Simeon, M.D. -- August, 2013

http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/psychiatric_disorders/dissociative_disorders/overview_of_dissociative_disorders.html?qt=dissociative%20&alt=sh

"Everyone occasionally experiences a failure in the normal automatic integration of memories, perceptions, identity, and consciousness. For example, people may drive somewhere and then realize that they do not remember many aspects of the drive because they are preoccupied with personal concerns, a program on the radio, or conversation with a passenger. *Typically, such a failure, referred to as nonpathologic dissociation, does not disrupt everyday activities.*

People with a dissociative disorder may totally forget a series of normal behaviors occupying minutes or hours and may sense missing a period of time in their experience. Dissociation thus disrupts the continuity of self and the recollection of life events. People may experience the following:


Poorly integrated memory (dissociative amnesia)
Fragmentation of identity and memory (dissociative fugue or dissociative identity disorder)
*Disruption of experience and self-perception (depersonalization disorder)*

Dissociative disorders are usually attributed to overwhelming stress. Such stress *may* be generated by traumatic events or by intolerable inner conflict."

---------------------------------
*Personally, I feel DPD is not generated by "intolerable inner conflict" -- and Simeon states "MAY be generated by .... " Truly the experts in this field do NOT have a clear sense of this disorder. But abuse and trauma in childhood do seem to be a factor.*

*In my experience, I still am referring strictly to DP/DR alone. Not HPPD, not DID, not Amnestic states - when I refer to a dissociative state that is common to people and animals, related to survival.*

At this point I can only say I believe that the *SYMPTOMS of DP and DR (chronic or not chronic) are related to a flght/flight survival mechanism.* Overstimulation by constant abuse/chaos which can affect the Hypothalamus Pituitary Adrenal Axis ---> chronic high cortisol levels causing change in the brain (in various ways -- not just "chemical imbalance"). This could be reversed as the brain is plastic, but as Selig has noted, and I have experienced, my life was so crazy and lonely since early childhood, my response to therapy has never been enough.

Perhaps you might add to the mix, my abuser was a psychiatrist (my mother), my father left early on, and I had no siblings or extended family (my parents were much older when I was born). And as noted many times, I was born at the end of the 1950s.

*And again, I find this general description of Dissociative Disorders inacurate as that in TRUE DPD, there is NO amnesia for events. At this link you can find the other Dissociative Disorders broken down into categories.*

And finally - DP/DR that is triggered by pot alone, I don't think one can call that HPPD. Pot is a dissociative drug. Hallucinogens, like LSD, are different and leave the sufferer with different symptoms -- more visual symptoms as I understand it. I do not understand when others describe "trails of light" or "the walls breathing" etc. -- though I certainly believe these things. I have no "visual snow" -- yet some say this comes with even non drug-induced DP/DR. Yet in a clinical definition -- these visual disturbances are not mentioned. Dizziness and vestibular problems are. And I have those and always have.


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## odisa

> And finally - DP/DR that is triggered by pot alone, I don't think one can call that HPPD.


Correct: by definition according to the DSM, someone with HPPD must present with visual disturbances. Without these symptoms, one can not call it HPPD. (though I confess; the name is rather ambiguous as it is Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder, which implies any persistent alterations to perception as a result of hallucinogen use, thus also potentially DP/DR.. but I digress; I would call such a non-visual occurrence of DP as a result of drugs, simply drug-induced depersonalization).

Cannabis alone has been occasionally been reported to induce HPPD, though rarely. I suspect these individuals either had laced cannabis, or they misdiagnose their visual disturbances related to DR as HPPD, as there are such symptoms that can overlap. Or, had a history of polydrug use, in which case it may be delayed-onset HPPD that was triggered by a panic like state from cannabis use. Either way, cannabis as a sole cause for HPPD seems highly unlikely.


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## Funky Buddha

Well with my DP/DR I believe I have HPPD, but I'm not sure. I definitely have visual disturbances but it isn't as bad as this,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Red-blue-noise.gif

As in like, it isn't as sharp and as fast and the (dots?). It's like a lack of image quality as if you're looking at a 1MP image rather than a 10MP image. Right now I'm going through some weird symptoms. I have very bad lightheadedness. It's like when ever I move my head my environment moves with it and last night I felt very anxious. Still quite anxious and spaced out. I'd say I'm kinda delirious, as in like I'd be doing something without realizing I'm doing it and my concentration and memory are crap. I believe that's classed as DR? Not so much DP though.

At the moment, I'm trying to detox...


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## Funky Buddha

Also, the dots are the same color as the object you're looking at. The dots aren't the same color.

This is a perfect example of what I can see:

http://images.travelpod.com/users/atlpilot36/2.1253822828.more-bad-quality.jpg

Obviously, the sky wouldn't be that bad though.


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## Pyrite

Funky Buddha said:


> Also, the dots are the same color as the object you're looking at. The dots aren't the same color.
> 
> This is a perfect example of what I can see:
> 
> http://images.travelpod.com/users/atlpilot36/2.1253822828.more-bad-quality.jpg
> 
> Obviously, the sky wouldn't be that bad though.


It's probably just the visual static that most people with DP/DR have.

For me it's only noticeable when I look at a plane surface like a white wall or the sky.


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## greymanor

I personally don't and wouldn't med. because i think that when you have dp or a dissociative disorder you have a weakness in your mind/psyche and there is always a cause for it. I want to get better when i am actually better you see. I've had depression before...meds just make you brain make more happy hormones but that in itself isnt the problem the problem is the underlying causes...i like the idea of depending on a drug to be able to live normally.

Generally i think mental illness should not ever be fixed with drugs because its not really fixing anything its just covering up the symptoms


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## Guest

odisa said:


> I think there are various flavours, intensities, etc. of dissociation, and it is an inherently ambiguous term which many find hard to describe. Words simply fall short of describing it. Taken literally, dissociation is the loss of association (of the senses), whether this be of the self, the environment, or both. It is the anxious component to it - the fear and sensation of not being in control of it - that makes it ever so more debilitating. Purposely invoked dissociation is very different from the sort we suffer of. I don't think dissociation serves any purpose, evolutionary or otherwise.
> 
> There are plenty of reasons why our instincts would differ from other animals, but let's not go further in to that. I don't think animals are relevant to the discussion.


Odisa.. this appears to be very narrow view of dissociation. Why do you see dissociation as an inherently ambiguous term? It's more than the loss of association of the senses. What about detachment of memories, emotions, self?

While I agree there is a fear of 'not being in control of it'. That's most likely not the only place fear comes from, especially trauma based dp, which is the most common by the looks.

You honestly don't think dissociation serves any purpose? What about the ability for an young child who is being physically abused? Don't you think the ability to detach from the experience and memory and emotions or feelings (pain) serves any purpose?

What do you mean by purposefully invoked dissociation?


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## Guest

*Dreamer* said:


> *Philos,* when you say you have DID -- Dissociative Identity Disorder -- that is IMHO not the same as DP/DR. It involves loss of memory for events.
> I've also mentioned that the new DSM-5 has redefined this section, and the question still remains if DP/DR Disorder should remain in the category as it involves NO amnesia.


Yes DID and DP are different. People with dissociative identity disorder also experience DP and DR. Even though DP might or might not involve loss of memory there is a common thread.. dissociation. Dissociative experiences are on a scale/spectrum ranging from 'normal everyday dissociation' to DID, and there's every type of intensity and distress in between.

Think about this... It seems the majority of DPD stems from trauma of some kind. How many people actually remember the traumatic events straight up when they realise they're dissociative? It seems a lot of people don't remember any traumatic events in their lives when they first become heavily dissociated or DPD'd. Many times I've read on this website about people believing they had the best upbringing ever, only to start retrieving memories of abuse a little down the track after they start the journey of healing. Do you agree?

I don't think you can say DPD doesn't involve loss of memory, b/c clearly it does for some, if not most.


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## Guest

*Dreamer* said:


> At this point I can only say I believe that the *SYMPTOMS of DP and DR (chronic or not chronic) are related to a flght/flight survival mechanism.* Overstimulation by constant abuse/chaos which can affect the Hypothalamus Pituitary Adrenal Axis ---> chronic high cortisol levels causing change in the brain (in various ways -- not just "chemical imbalance"). This could be reversed as the brain is plastic, but as Selig has noted, and I have experienced, my life was so crazy and lonely since early childhood, my response to therapy has never been enough.


I can understand both of you for having pessimistic views towards healing from your trauma. You've obviously tried many different ways to heal. However each time the pessimistic view is expressed of, I've tried everything and nothing's helped enough and resigning myself to long term use of medication,' it's like a knife in the heart of those who are looking for ways to recover.

There are people here who are very optimistic about recovery, myself included. There's also a lot of people here new to this and aren't sure what to think. Personally I've come a long way in healing in the past 4 years, using different recovery techniques and my 'toolbox' of coping skills. As I've said, I rarely experience dp anymore.

I think people on this site would rather hear optimism rather than pessimism. And it seems the optimists spend so much time defending their beliefs of recovery. I continuously get hit with this thing of 'prove this, prove that', prove you know people who've recovered etc etc&#8230; or the big one lately, 'prove there is a way of recovering', 'show me the scientific data to prove what you say'. People who recover rarely have their stories printed in scientific journals, that's just a given. There are plenty of stories of recovery out there if you care to look. So if people want to believe there is no way to recover. I feel sorry for them b/c I know in the majority of the cases that's not true.

Question for Selig and Dreamer. Have you ever done any 'Parts work' therapy? Might be worth a look at if you haven't?


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## odisa

Philos said:


> Odisa.. this appears to be very narrow view of dissociation. Why do you see dissociation as an inherently ambiguous term? It's more than the loss of association of the senses. What about detachment of memories, emotions, self?
> 
> While I agree there is a fear of 'not being in control of it'. That's most likely not the only place fear comes from, especially trauma based dp, which is the most common by the looks.
> 
> You honestly don't think dissociation serves any purpose? What about the ability for an young child who is being physically abused? Don't you think the ability to detach from the experience and memory and emotions or feelings (pain) serves any purpose?
> 
> What do you mean by purposefully invoked dissociation?


What I mean is that the term "dissociation" is a word used to describe many different things, as such it is rather ambiguous when spoken out of context. In the context we are speaking of, it is usually the dissociation of the senses. Indeed; I had forgotten to describe the dissociation of cognition and emotion.

I'm not saying the lack of sense of control over the dissociation is the source of fear, but it can be, and is at least an element of it, and often seems to be the number one perpetuating factor.

No; I don't think that's really purposeful what you've described there. I'd say that in that situation, a better response would be to scavenge for weapons and defend one's self, rather than to dissociate. I'm not a trauma expert, but from my experience with what one could consider trauma, I've always been more focused on acting on the situation, rather than dissociating from it.

By purposely invoked dissociation, I mean dissociation that is intentionally and consciously brought about. I recall one time, some years ago, when I was overwhelmed with anger. In this instance, I chose to dissociate. After perpetuating it for several hours, I realized it was quite the useless state of consciousness, and abandoned it. The latter was possible because I didn't have the sensation that I had no control over it, for ultimately I had chosen to induce it. I returned to the person I was angry with, apologized, went on with my day, and the next day I wasn't thinking about it any more.


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## *Dreamer*

> Think about this... It seems the majority of DPD stems from trauma of some kind. How many people actually remember the traumatic events straight up when they realise they're dissociative? It seems a lot of people don't remember any traumatic events in their lives when they first become heavily dissociated or DPD'd. Many times I've read on this website about people believing they had the best upbringing ever, only to start retrieving memories of abuse a little down the track after they start the journey of healing. Do you agree?
> 
> I don't think you can say DPD doesn't involve loss of memory, b/c clearly it does for some, if not most.


Philos,
We have to agree to disagree here. As I posted above, from the DSM, from reading Dr. Sierra's medical text, Abugel and Simeon, working in therapy for many years, DP/DR -- those symptoms -- experienced chronically or for short periods of time do not include amnesia.

I recall every bit of abuse I received. I recall fear, loneliness, rage, grief. I cried, I was anxious, I screamed at my mother. I didn't UNDERSTAND everything that was going on, but I have very clear memories of much of what happened ... see my website for details, I won't repeat them.
------------------------
As is noted in the Merck Manual, DSM-5, etc.

The following disorders in the CLASS of dissociative disorders involve "loss of time/memory"

1. Dissociative amnesia (which includes dissociative Fugue states) -- and both of these are rare
2. DID - Dissociative Identity Disorder, where an individual perhaps comes home from work and notices new clothing in her closet -- not her style -- that she does NOT recall purchaasing.

In this way, dissociate means "disconnect" to me. Even in DP/DR -- disconnecting from SELF, or in the case of DID/Amnesia disconnecting from events to such an extent that hours or even days can "go missing."

In my reading and research, there is a slippery slope in suggesting to someone that they must remember something they forgot. Memory is a very tricky thing -- it isn't exact. You can make a healthy person believe something happened to them that didn't.

What my therapy has helped with is understanding my parents were sick, in understanding I wasn't evil, or stupid, or "after my mother's money" or any number of crazy things she would tell me. I always DOUBTED things, but I didn't understand her, or my father (he was a hoarder-clutterer and a compulsive gambler) ... until I was in therapy for several years.



> It seems a lot of people don't remember any traumatic events in their lives when they first become heavily dissociated or DPD'd.


Could you site a clear reference for this statement. I have never heard this or read about it, and it was never suggested to me by any therapist including several psychoanalysts who distinguished between MPD (at the time, before it was changed to DID) and DP/DR.
Appreciated.


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## *Dreamer*

> I can understand both of you for having pessimistic views towards healing from your trauma. You've obviously tried many different ways to heal. However each time the pessimistic view is expressed of, I've tried everything and nothing's helped enough and resigning myself to long term use of medication,' it's like a knife in the heart of those who are looking for ways to recover.


My question, playing devil's advocate, *as your therapist* would be ... "Philos, why does Dreamer's lack of recovery hurt so much?"

I would say also that I live day to day, seeking anything and everything that will make me have the best quality of life possible. That is the truth of my life. Should I refrain from sharing it? I am writing a book, a memoir, a more expanded version of my website (and is that a pain to do!) ... it is sort of cathartic for me. But if it were published, would you say "That is a negative story and it shouldn't be published because it scares me?"

My story is not the only one. There are many stories. And remember I also have clinical depression and GAD. For all I know I inherited these things from a long family history of mental illness.

*I would hope you see that it is painful to ME to hear you say you want me to be, say, do something that I am NOT. * That is almost identical to the things my mother would say to me. "You little lying bitch." Etc. One thing that has taken me YEARS to do is express myself fully, speak my opinion. I was never allowed to do that. I had to "keep family secrets" ... so many I would slip up and get shit for that. I tried SO hard to please everyone, and you cannot please everyone. To control everything, no one control anything really.

I am so much healthier now, remember I am 55 years old, in that way than I ever was. I purposely "came out of the closet" with my website in 2000. First as Dreamer, then began to use my real name. I am not ashamed of my past. I am not ashamed of who I am. Though some days I still have to work on various situations where these issues come up.


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## *Dreamer*

> Question for Selig and Dreamer. Have you ever done any 'Parts work' therapy? Might be worth a look at if you haven't?


Answering for myself. No, though I am aware of it ... Family ... something -- noting the different "personas" in one's make up.
As I said, I was born very close to 1960. My mother was a psychiatrist, M.D. and a psychoanalyst (Freudian). She had patients who had DP/DR and knew I had it, though she never told me and wouldn't let me seek help for my "feeling weird" as I called it.

From since I can recall until the age of 16 I had DP/DR that interfered with my life and got progressively worse. She could have helped me and didn't.

*I had a struggle to begin with to understand therapists. My mother my abuser was a psychiatrist/therapist. THAT is a head trip in and of itself. It isn't a great thing having both parents be doctors. (My father was a thoracic surgeon)*

I have been in many forms of therapy as I 
1. Lived at home (saw a doctor for one year there)

2. Moved away to University and didn't start seeing someone for about 2.5 years
3. Moved across the country and had to find another doctor. It took a long time to find someone who wasn't an idiot.
4. Had a long period with a psychoanlyst
HIS partner prescribed clonazepam and noted it was effective in DP/DR patients and did not attribute my symptoms to any "repressed memory", etc., but to constant chaos and anxiety in the home. And no love. None.

Subsequently over the years I ended up moving back to my home state. The most effective therapy turned out to be DBT (dialectical behavioral therapy) which I took for four months at University of Michigan. They give me a new psychiatric resident every year - so I've been through 7 of them or so!!!!! -- ALL of them felt I had a horrific life and never suggested I wasn't working to get better.

Parts Therapy was never offered/suggested. I only know that unlike other forms of therapy -- well, I don't think I ever knew or could find someone trained in that.

Again, remember I grew up without the internet, without cellphones. If my mother were alive today I would like to scream bloody murder to her and show her this website.

And everything I've been through -- what has helped is helping others with ALL mental illness. It is very satisfying. It is not what I thought I would do with my life, but I suppose these were the cards I was dealt. I'm not happy about it.

And whatever choices you make in your road to recovery -- I have no judgement. I suspect why you judge me -- I seem to indeed be "a hopeless case." Well, what am I supposed to say. I don't see it that way. I have to make the best of it. I work at it every single minute of every single day.

Cheers.


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## *Dreamer*

I just looked up Dr. Schwartz and IFT? It was not established until the year 2000. So that therapy was not even on my radar. I was in my early 40s? when it was established. Also, I now go to a depression support group every week and no longer see a therapist. It's very beneficial.

I could not have taken each step along the way without my medications. I believe in a holistic approach for myself. It is my choice. And I have made a lot of progress over the years, even if my SYMPTOMS have not gone away, my psychological approach to living is more mature, balanced, mindful, calm.


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## *Dreamer*

Holy Moses! This is great. I just cut and pasted then printed out essentially a 20 page chapter on my thoughts on this. Needs a lot of editing, but it goes into my book!

I honestly thank you all. One full chapter absolutely.


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## Guest

odisa said:


> By purposely invoked dissociation, I mean dissociation that is intentionally and consciously brought about. I recall one time, some years ago, when I was overwhelmed with anger. In this instance, I chose to dissociate. After perpetuating it for several hours, I realized it was quite the useless state of consciousness, and abandoned it. The latter was possible because I didn't have the sensation that I had no control over it, for ultimately I had chosen to induce it. I returned to the person I was angry with, apologized, went on with my day, and the next day I wasn't thinking about it any more.


If you have a choice in dissociating or not, why do you have an ongoing dissociative disorder? Generally dissociation is seen as an unconscious choice. At least that's what the medical articles and definition say, and my experience shows this as well.

That's a very positive thing that you can choose turn off dissociation btw. That's what recovery is all about, having to 'tools' to change the response.


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## Guest

*Dreamer* said:


> Philos,
> We have to agree to disagree here. As I posted above, from the DSM, from reading Dr. Sierra's medical text, Abugel and Simeon, working in therapy for many years, DP/DR -- those symptoms -- experienced chronically or for short periods of time do not include amnesia.
> 
> I recall every bit of abuse I received. I recall fear, loneliness, rage, grief. I cried, I was anxious, I screamed at my mother. I didn't UNDERSTAND everything that was going on, but I have very clear memories of much of what happened ... see my website for details, I won't repeat them.
> ------------------------


Dreamer.. surely you know that people often don't remember abuse before they 'meltdown' and begin therapy. That's certainly some kind of memory loss. Amnesia doesn't have to be permanent. I'm not going to go and find proof of this b/c it's just so incredibly common amongst trauma patients. I hate digging up articles about obvious things, I really couldn't be bothered, sorry. Ask any trauma therapist. They will tell you a LOT of patients recover memories as they progress through therapy. Some even start therapy with no idea of anything untoward happening in their lives.

There're people here that go through the same thing. I think seafoamellow went through this, of not realising he was traumatised when he grew up, then later down the track memories of abuse came up.

In regard to therapists 'implanting' memories or suggesting memories. Well, yes we both know that happens. If I was doing therapy and a suggestions were made as to what happened, I'd be out of there quick as a flash. I've never recovered a single memory during therapy. Not once.

I dunno.. maybe we're talking about different things here? I just looked up amnesia and it said.. this is just a little excerpt from some online medical dictionary..

Some types of amnesia, such as transient global amnesia, are completely resolved and there is no permanent loss of memory. Others, such as Korsakoff syndrome, associated with prolonged alcohol abuse or amnesias caused by severe brain injury, may be permanent. Depending on the degree of amnesia and its cause, victims may be able to lead relatively normal lives. Amnesiacs can learn through therapy to rely on other memory systems to compensate for what is lost.

It seems to state amnesia isn't necessarily permanent and I'm sure that applies to dissociative amnesia too.


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## Pyrite

Interestingly, when I first triggered DP/DR I had no memory of the triggering event, and it wasn't something could be easily forgotten. I didn't recall it until it was mentioned to me.


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## odisa

Philos said:


> If you have a choice in dissociating or not, why do you have an ongoing dissociative disorder? Generally dissociation is seen as an unconscious choice. At least that's what the medical articles and definition say, and my experience shows this as well.
> 
> That's a very positive thing that you can choose turn off dissociation btw. That's what recovery is all about, having to 'tools' to change the response.


I think you misunderstood what I said there. This was before I acquired DP/DR/HPPD. At that time, I was able to abandon the dissociation at wish, and it was a single occasion. Suffice to say, if I had that ability today, I would probably not be talking on this forum right now.


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## *Dreamer*

> Dreamer.. surely you know that people often don't remember abuse before they 'meltdown' and begin therapy. That's certainly some kind of memory loss. Amnesia doesn't have to be permanent. I'm not going to go and find proof of this b/c it's just so incredibly common amongst trauma patients. I hate digging up articles about obvious things, I really couldn't be bothered, sorry. Ask any trauma therapist. They will tell you a LOT of patients recover memories as they progress through therapy. Some even start therapy with no idea of anything untoward happening in their lives.


I honestly don't. I know many people with DP/DR (have met them in person), and many individuals with other mental illnesses.

The reason someone SEEKS help is because they feel lousy. I also have many friends, who are my age. What is so sad is that a good number of us had crappy families, in a very upper class community. They kept their problems secret as well -- serious things. And we all say to each other now, "Wow, I wish we could have helped each other than."

Keeping up a facade, lying, hiding something, is not the same as forgetting. Many women who are raped don't want to think of it. If anything they have intrusive thoughts and nightmares about it. It affects their sexuality.

Of my friends from abusive families:
1. Not all of them have DP, but some are depressed/anxious -- which is also a result of abuse.
2. They recall everything that went on. The pain. And often the "keeping of secrets."

I have one girlfriend who actually told me when we were in high school that her brother had sex with her. I was so uncertain about "right and wrong" and secrets and no secrets, and had no clue about sex or incest that I really had nothing to say to her. She knew it then, she knows it now. I was glad I could listen, but even though we could talk about anything, I was at a loss for words. I just listened. I think she wanted to tell me. She had to go through a process of UNDERSTANDING why her brother acted that way, how it affected her sexuality (she never had children and married late in life) -- but she never forgot.

I do have a problem with "forgetting."

I have met ONE person, through NAMI, at a meeting, who had dissociative fugue states. And she wasn't abused. She had so many problems. But literally, she would wake up in the morning and go outdoors. Then next thing she knew it was 14 hours later and she was walking in the dark in a bad part of town. She could NOT recall where she had been or what she had been doing. Some people would say they saw her and even talked to her and she had no memory for it. This is very rare. You hear some stories of people who have an entirely new identity, move to another town, forget they had a family. This makes the news because it is so rare.

We simply have to agree to disagree. I don't take this lightly. I have to be very careful in what I say about someone else's experience.

But I also know that innocent individuals, under duress, or with a great need to please, will even confess to a murder they haven't committed. This happens time and time again with young people who are yelled at, deprived of food/water, etc. in police interrogations. They will say ANYTHING to make the questions stop.

Also, I have been to two of the top trauma therapists in the country -- in LA. One used to believe in forgotten memories, the other didn't. Later the first one changed his mind. Neither of them thought I had forgotten anything. My work was in trying to come to terms with a lot of mixed up thoughts and feelings.

I'm still working on that.

I could site certain information, but you say you will not cite any, so I will leave it at that. And this is my opinion. You don't have to agree with me, and that's fine. But the implication is that I have not "remembered something." Is it possible? Anything is possible. Do I believe that to be true, does my doctor, my former therapists -- no, none of us do.


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## *Dreamer*

odisa said:


> I think you misunderstood what I said there. This was before I acquired DP/DR/HPPD. At that time, I was able to abandon the dissociation at wish, and it was a single occasion. Suffice to say, if I had that ability today, I would probably not be talking on this forum right now.


Interesting. As a child, I could bring on DP/DR. I would focus on my body, ask existential questions. I didn't know what I was doing. I was always very introspective, and I was often alone. As I got older, the DP/DR came on by itself and I had no control over it. These early times (age 5-7?) I would stare in the mirror, etc. I had control, then I lost it.

When it was under my control it was not scary at all.

EDIT: If right now I focused too much on myself, I could bring on a bad episode. I have learned over the years to NOT GO THERE. I feel safer. I feel less likely I will slip into awful DP. I stay at my "usual level." Discussing it does not make me fear it. If anything I feel comfortable talking with people who understand.
"


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## Guest

*Dreamer* said:


> My question, playing devil's advocate, *as your therapist* would be ... "Philos, why does Dreamer's lack of recovery hurt so much?"
> 
> I would say also that I live day to day, seeking anything and everything that will make me have the best quality of life possible. That is the truth of my life. Should I refrain from sharing it? I am writing a book, a memoir, a more expanded version of my website (and is that a pain to do!) ... it is sort of cathartic for me. But if it were published, would you say "That is a negative story and it shouldn't be published because it scares me?"


Your lack of optimism doesn't really bother me much. I'm far too advanced to believe there is no hope of recovery. Btw by recovery I mean being virtually symptom free&#8230; To live a life without mind altering medication and be free from the adverse effects of chronic dissociation. Fortunately I have people around me who have been totally debilitated from dissociative disorders who, in their words, have made a complete recovery and live a life of peace. That's all I ask as well. That's recovery if you ask me. These people to me are the most precious, optimistic, wise and experienced guides one could ask for&#8230;

Back to your question.. Why does Dreamers lack of recovery hurt so much? Well as I said it doesn't hurt me much. But others? Yes of course it would. I'm sure you don't mean it, but some of the things you say can come across as very negative especially to someone who first jumps on this site. Hearing accounts of "i've tried so many different treatments and I've been on several different types of strong mind altering medication to sustain me for decades&#8230; I'm sorry to read that.

At the same time I don't think it's my place to even suggest suppress what you need to say. I suppose I'm saying be careful what you say to vulnerable people b/c it can really squash hope.

I'm not making any judgments. These are words you've said and I'm just letting you know how others may take this onboard. Let me know if you think I am judging.. that's not my intention.

Don't get me wrong here. I feel very sorry you haven't been able to get to that 'nice place' and be symptom free. You're obviously very intelligent and I hope one day you can break through the barriers that are keeping you stuck and dissociative. I really do.


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## Guest

*Dreamer* said:


> I honestly don't. I know many people with DP/DR (have met them in person), and many individuals with other mental illnesses.
> 
> The reason someone SEEKS help is because they feel lousy. I also have many friends, who are my age. What is so sad is that a good number of us had crappy families, in a very upper class community. They kept their problems secret as well -- serious things. And we all say to each other now, "Wow, I wish we could have helped each other than."
> 
> Keeping up a facade, lying, hiding something, is not the same as forgetting. Many women who are raped don't want to think of it. If anything they have intrusive thoughts and nightmares about it. It affects their sexuality.


Ohh Dreamer.. please read this.

http://cogprints.org/600/1/199802010.html

There's a gizzilion articles on repressed traumatic memories and dissociated memories on the web. What do think hypnotherapy or EMDR is about? They are methods used to bring repressed memories into the conscious mind so they can be processed.

And please don't try and tell me all repressed memories are false, lies, or inplanted by therapists. There're thousands of court cases where a person finally remembers what happened to them and they win the case based on that and other evidence uncovered. The memories are a big part of the case.

Now I AM going to judge. The so-called specialists who are telling otherwise are full of s**t. And I don't care what their pieces of paper say. You have been lead astray.

If a therapist heard a story about someone who has dissociative fugue and they said "I haven't been abused'.. there'd be alarm bells going off all over the place!!


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## *Dreamer*

> *How common are repressed memories of childhood abuse?* There is no absolute answer available. There are few satisfying ways to discover the answer, since we are in the odd position of asking people about a memory for forgetting a memory. But, for the moment we have some figures ranging from 18% to 59%. The range is disturbingly great suggesting serious scholarly exploration is warranted in order to know how to interpret claims about the commonness of repression, or what abuse characteristics the repression might be related to.


The title of that article is misleading. Elizabeth Loftus does not believe in repressed memories, she talks about various cases and has testified in court cases about it.

I can't respond to the rest. I have been "led astray" for 55 years? LOL. Thank you for insinuating that I have no ability to think for myself.

We have to agree to disagree.

DID comes comorbid with many disorders that could explain a different way of thinking. This includes Borderline, and even schizophrenia.

Before 1940 there were only a handful of cases of MPD. After 1980 there were @40,000 .. and it strangely coincided with the release of the films "The Three Faces of Eve" and "Sybil" ... also, this disorder apparently only occurs in females in North American countries.

I have problems with all of this.

We can each have our own point of view. Please don't insult me is all I ask.

And this young woman had many disorders as well -- bipolar with mania, etc. It is possible that during a manic phase she actually lost time. Her doctor was well aware of her situation as was not an idiot, LOL. She would be hurt to hear you say that.


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## *Dreamer*

I will avoid discussing my POV on MPD/DID. It is too touchy a subject and the diagnosis is probably the most controversial. Doctors have been sued over creating alter personalities. However, I certainly believe someone with DID has something wrong, what it is, we don't understand. However, I am a follower of Elizabeth Loftus who wrote "The Myth of Repressed Memory." I used to be an active member of the ISSMPD in the 1980s and attended meetings all the time.

This has always fascinated me.

http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Repressed-Memory-Memories-Allegations/dp/0312141238/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1398307153&sr=1-1&keywords=the+myth+of+repressed+memory

A link to Loftus' book, and many other books with an ongoing debate. I happen to be more in agreement with Loftus. Memory is VERY complex.

OK, I will stop there. I don't wish to start an argument, and Odisa requested that in his first post.


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## Pyrite

*Dreamer* said:


> I will avoid discussing my POV on MPD/DID. It is too touchy a subject and the diagnosis is probably the most controversial. Doctors have been sued over creating alter personalities. However, I certainly believe someone with DID has something wrong, what it is, we don't understand. However, I am a follower of Elizabeth Loftus who wrote "The Myth of Repressed Memory." I used to be an active member of the ISSMPD in the 1980s and attended meetings all the time.
> 
> This has always fascinated me.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Repressed-Memory-Memories-Allegations/dp/0312141238/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1398307153&sr=1-1&keywords=the+myth+of+repressed+memory
> 
> A link to Loftus' book, and many other books with an ongoing debate. I happen to be more in agreement with Loftus. Memory is VERY complex.
> 
> OK, I will stop there. I don't wish to start an argument, and Odisa requested that in his first post.


I can't think of any reason why memory repression cannot exist, the outcry seems to be more about how easily exploitable the concept is. It's no good to allow peoples misuse of something detract from the people who this is a legitament issue for.

On top of that, a lot of psychological concepts are hard to work with in a hard scientific or experimental settings, since they are not inherently measurable or quantifiable and raise many ethical issues when dealing with traumas.

Really, the only way to study trauma and related issues is through the cooperation of traumatized people and that brings in a lot of variables and bias.


----------



## *Dreamer*

Pyrite said:


> I can't think of any reason why memory repression cannot exist, the outcry seems to be more about how easily exploitable the concept is. It's no good to allow peoples misuse of something detract from the people who this is a legitament issue for.
> 
> On top of that, a lot of psychological concepts are hard to work with in a hard scientific or experimental settings, since they are not inherently measurable or quantifiable and raise many ethical issues when dealing with traumas.
> 
> Really, the only way to study trauma and related issues is through the cooperation of traumatized people and that brings in a lot of variables and bias.


Well, I do agree with what I've highlighted in red.

The problem is if there are too many cases of false memory syndrome where patients recant, doctors are sued, and patients have to be deconditioned essentially from being brainwashed -- and these things are documented -- then credibility is lost.

I was horrified to hear the name of a psychiatrist knew from the ISSMPD who was sued for the creation of many alters in a patient.

That doesn't help with one's faith in research.

There is one other scenario that was truly not ill-intended. This was back in the 1990s? I forget. There were people called "facilitators" who held the hands of autistic teenagers/children as the children typed out very complex sentences. The facilitators were thrilled and felt they were breaking through to these kids. It turns out, someone doubted what was happening. A study was done, proving that the facilitators so wanted their patients to feel better that they were actually typing FOR them.

Many of the therapists themselves felt horrible about this. They had GOOD intentions.

There are studies into this. Many. If you read the article you posted -- it reflects the uncertainty of how to verify these things.
All I know, is I have seen some top doctors in the field and my psychoanalyst believed in MPD and was a founding member of the ISSMPD. HE did not believe I had repressed memories. He did not believe I had MPD. He believed I had been overstimulated into something of a fight/flight mode -- his words not mine.

Names of my doctors if you wish to Google them. Stephen Marmer and Richard Loewenstein. I think I spelled those both incorrectly. Both are still in practice.

http://www.sheppardpratt.org/sp_htmlcode/sp_clinicians/sp_clini_detail.aspx?DID=201&LID=2


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## Guest

Sorry Dreamer but your arguments against repressed memories don't hold water at all. I'll agree that some people with 'repressed' memories are liars or have had memories suggested by therapists, clearly some don't (eg. court cases won using retrieved memory and accompanying evidence). Sorry but I don't want to say any more about this subject. You can comment of course but I'm not.

To me talking like this is about learning. Just to let you know, I'm not here to try and 'score points'.. It's interesting to hear everyones views.

I know this is way off topic and I'll try not to mention it again, but it does no good to try and discredit DID. If you had it for a day, you wouldn't doubt it at all. I can see how challenging it is to comprehend how a body can have more than one person living in it. It's a pretty bizarre concept without a doubt. It took me 2 years of trying to understand it when I started 'breaking down' and I spent a lot of that time trying to deny it as well. Now, it makes perfect sense to me. I actually embrace it most of the time now. I didn't for a long time, but I do now. That's why I'm more at peace inside. One of my mottos is.. 'If we all work together, then together we'll all work it out'. To true.

The thing is.. if any of these so called experts who don't believe it, actually had DID themselves, they'd quickly change their beliefs. It's not any other mental disorder muddled up with something else, or brain damage, or psychosis, some weird brain malformation or this or that. It is what it is. Lots of people inside one body. Simple really.


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## *Dreamer*

I believe you. I have no reason not to. It is your experience. I respect your experience if you respect mine.

And I only wish you would feel better. No one who doesn't experience any brain disorder can possibly understand.

Also, I do not walk in your skin, you do not walk in mine.

Truce. And I won't continue the discussion.


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## Pyrite

*Dreamer* said:


> Well, I do agree with what I've highlighted in red.
> 
> The problem is if there are too many cases of false memory syndrome where patients recant, doctors are sued, and patients have to be deconditioned essentially from being brainwashed -- and these things are documented -- then credibility is lost.
> 
> I was horrified to hear the name of a psychiatrist knew from the ISSMPD who was sued for the creation of many alters in a patient.
> 
> That doesn't help with one's faith in research.
> 
> There is one other scenario that was truly not ill-intended. This was back in the 1990s? I forget. There were people called "facilitators" who held the hands of autistic teenagers/children as the children typed out very complex sentences. The facilitators were thrilled and felt they were breaking through to these kids. It turns out, someone doubted what was happening. A study was done, proving that the facilitators so wanted their patients to feel better that they were actually typing FOR them.
> 
> Many of the therapists themselves felt horrible about this. They had GOOD intentions.
> 
> There are studies into this. Many. If you read the article you posted -- it reflects the uncertainty of how to verify these things.
> All I know, is I have seen some top doctors in the field and my psychoanalyst believed in MPD and was a founding member of the ISSMPD. HE did not believe I had repressed memories. He did not believe I had MPD. He believed I had been overstimulated into something of a fight/flight mode -- his words not mine.
> 
> Names of my doctors if you wish to Google them. Stephen Marmer and Richard Loewenstein. I think I spelled those both incorrectly. Both are still in practice.
> 
> http://www.sheppardpratt.org/sp_htmlcode/sp_clinicians/sp_clini_detail.aspx?DID=201&LID=2


Crap like that happens, it's part of being fallible humans. But failures like that are only one part of the entire matter. It's easy for people dealing with psychology, patient or doctor, to have a bias or flat lie because most of what we know is based on peoples good word and personnel experience.


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## Guest

*Dreamer* said:


> I was horrified to hear the name of a psychiatrist knew from the ISSMPD who was sued for the creation of many alters in a patient.


Dreamer, just out of interest do you know if the psychiatrist pleaded guilty? Did they really do that, or is it something that was fabricated by the patient? Who won do you know?


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## *Dreamer*

Philos said:


> Dreamer, just out of interest do you know if the psychiatrist pleaded guilty? Did they really do that, or is it something that was fabricated by the patient? Who won do you know?


The suit was settled out of court for $10.6 million dollars. It was a plea deal. That is not a small amount of money. My anger with this also is it took away a lot of credibility re: dissociative disorders in general. I see it as PART of the reason that DP/DR research in the US went down the drain for at least a decade. It is also why I have more faith in the work in London with Dr. Mauricio Sierra at the IoP.

SPOILERS: (Can't find the spoiler button, sorry) -- there is so much information on this it is overwhelming. I was absolutely stunned. I saw my doctors from the ISSMPD in the early 1980s. I had to seek another doctor in the 1990s as I was so blown away by all of this. Also, note, that the term changed officially from MPD to DID. Number of alters is not mentioned, so much as "fragmentation of personality." It is a fact that MPD/DID is hotly debated. I fall on Loftus' side. I was very familiar with the studies of the ISSMPD doctors. Many famous names you would know.

Note: it is very common for medical malpractice suits to be settled out of court for a plea deal. This is true for a lot of criminal cases (not just medical -- trials are very expensive -- all types of trials, criminal and civil -- plea deals are the best way to avoid lengthy trials). All doctors carry medical malpractice insurance. This insurance is very expensive. My parents had to carry malpractice insurance as doctors. Braun could have ended up paying MORE if he lost at trial. I'm guessing his attorneys and insurance company decided to pay up and move on.

I was in my 20s and in my 30s in the 1980s and 1990s when there was an explosion of MPD cases and Satanic Ritual Abuse Cases. There were multiple lawsuits and a number of very famous cases. MPD and satanic ritual abuse cases plummeted after the 1990s.

*The most shocking was the suit against Bennett Braun, M.D. an ISSMPD founder/member, and expert in MPD and Satanic Ritual Abuse Cases. I had seen him lecture, and he knew my psychoanalysts. He was one of "THE" names in this field. There was an agreed settlement of $10.6 million dollars. This was the Pat Burgus case. But there were others. She ended up with 300 personalities. There were others with fewer than that who also sued various doctors.*

* This case and the cases of The McMartin Preschool and Little Rascals Daycare school really put me into a depressioin for about a year. I had to find another psychiatrist who was not friends with Dr. Braun and other members of this group. I understand what it is like to lose faith in those who are supposed to be helping you and who "understand."

It was also difficult for me as I was trying to deal with my mother's abuse, and she was a psychiatrist. I felt doubly betrayed by the profession.*

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/June-1998/Dangerous-Therapy-The-Story-of-Patricia-Burgus-and-Multiple-Personality-Disorder/

"Pat Burgus thought she would soon be healed when psychiatrist Bennett Braun began treating her for multiple personality disorder. Instead, under hypnosis and on heavy medication, Burgus came to believe she possessed 300 personalities, ate human flesh, and sexually abused her two sons. Later, convinced Braun helped manufacture those memories, she sued. Now, even after receiving a $10.6-million settlement, she won't let up in her crusade against the man whose treatment, she says, nearly destroyed her."

*BY CYNTHIA HANSON*

*"Since 1993, more than 100 patients nationwide have sued therapists over treatment for MPD, which was diagnosed in explosive numbers throughout the eighties. "In many of these cases, we see a situation in which the poor training and instability of the therapist, coupled with the vulnerability of the patient, creates a situation fraught with the potential for a folie à deux"-that is, a delusion shared by therapist and patient, says R. Christopher Barden, a lawyer and psychologist who served on the Burgus legal team.*

*In January, citing "business reasons," Rush North Shore Medical Center in Skokie shut down Braun's ten-bed dissociative disorders unit. But he remains on the staff of both Rush North Shore and Rush-Presbyterian-St. Luke's, where, for the past 14 years, he has treated hundreds of patients."*

(Dr. Braun practices psychiatry in Montana now I think. He must be in his 70s?)

Also see The Bennett Braun story: http://www.illinoisfms.org/Braun.html

--------------------------------------
From Wikipedia ... there is a ton of information on all of this all over the place. Many books I can't even list. Magazine articles, newspapers, documentaries.

"During the late 1990s, there were multiple lawsuits in the United States in which psychiatrists and psychologists were successfully sued, or settled out of court, on the charge of propagatingiatrogenic memories of childhood sexual abuse, incest and satanic ritual abuse.[29]

Some of these suits were brought by individuals who later deemed their recovered memories of incest and/or satanic ritual abuse to be false. The False Memory Syndrome Foundation uses the term "retractors" to describe these individuals and have shared their stories publicly.[30] There is debate regarding the total number of retractions as compared to the total number of allegations,[10] and the reasons for retractions.[31"]

-------------------------------------

False Memories with Children: Frontline Documentary (Innocence Lost) -- a must see

*http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/innocence/*

*Frontline Documentary: Innocence Lost - Little Rascals Daycare, North Carolina

Other lawsuits -- many innocent daycare personnel went to prison for crimes they did not commit:*

*The McMartin Preschool - California*

*Fells Acres Day School - Mass*

*Wee Care Nursery School - New Jersey*

*Country Walk - Florida*

*1993 - Dale Akiki Case which was a transition point away from these false claims:*

Dale Akiki was found innocent of 35 counts of child abuse and kidnapping in 1993. The highly publicized acquittal was viewed by some commentators as symbolic of the move away from a national wave of hysteria about satanic and ritual abuse. Ten years after the McMartin case, the public, and jurors, seem to be more skeptical of cases based primarily on children's testimony.

-------------------------------------------------------

Court cases involving FMS

http://www.fmsfonline.org/legalsurvey.html


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## odisa

Hey guys, I don't want to censor you or anything, but could we please keep things a bit more on-topic? This topic is meant to facilitate discussion about medication (and also transcranial therapies which can be considered medication, albeit not substances). Admittedly; I haven't read everything in this topic, but from skimming it, it seems to be that the last few pages were discussing diagnostic criteria, and a lot of psychological theories not directly pertaining to the topic. There are other sections in the forum where such discussion is more appropriate.
Thanks.


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## *Dreamer*

Apologies.


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## Guest

Whoopsies.. It's happened again!

Doooough!


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## Guest

Why do people keep taking meds if they're clearly not helping, or even making them feel more dissociated? I understand certain meds take weeks to reach there full potential, but there's a lot of people who complain after that time the meds either stop working or they feel worse than before they started, and yet they continue (often under pressure from the docs).

I'm very wary of doctors who hand out scripts within an hour or two, when they clearly don't have much knowledge of what dp/dr is. And they hand them out so 'willy nilly'. It seems unethical to me.

Any thoughts on this?


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## odisa

Philos said:


> Why do people keep taking meds if they're clearly not helping, or even making them feel more dissociated? I understand certain meds take weeks to reach there full potential, but there's a lot of people who complain after that time the meds either stop working or they feel worse than before they started, and yet they continue (often under pressure from the docs).
> 
> I'm very wary of doctors who hand out scripts within an hour or two, when they clearly don't have much knowledge of what dp/dr is. And they hand them out so 'willy nilly'. It seems unethical to me.
> 
> Any thoughts on this?


I can't answer that first question, as I quit something if there's a lack of efficacy, or if it presents with greater adverse effects than benefits.

As for doctors: many are uneducated (or marginally educated) on pharmacology unfortunately; this is mainly pertaining to psychiatrists and GPs (not to mention indeed the lack of knowledge about DP). It's a bit of a conundrum: the average person has no knowledge of it either, but assumes the doctor does. Blindly trusting your doctor is something that seems to happen too often, yet for legal reasons one cannot state that it would be wiser to defy them.

The best way you can deal with this, is to educate yourself from reputable sources, which may or may not be too much of an effort, depending on your level of interest, learning capacity, and time you have to spare. This enables you to ask your doctor provocative questions, with which one may judge his or her competency.


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## Guest

odisa said:


> I can't answer that first question, as I quit something if there's a lack of efficacy, or if it presents with greater adverse effects than benefits.
> 
> As for doctors: many are uneducated (or marginally educated) on pharmacology unfortunately; this is mainly pertaining to psychiatrists and GPs (not to mention indeed the lack of knowledge about DP). It's a bit of a conundrum: the average person has no knowledge of it either, but assumes the doctor does. Blindly trusting your doctor is something that seems to happen too often, yet for legal reasons one cannot state that it would be wiser to defy them.
> 
> The best way you can deal with this, is to educate yourself from reputable sources, which may or may not be too much of an effort, depending on your level of interest, learning capacity, and time you have to spare. This enables you to ask your doctor provocative questions, with which one may judge his or her competency.


Yes I agree Odisa. Educating yourself is very important. It appears in a lot of cases with dp, the patient is actually far more informed than the doctor on what's actually going on for them. I guess this makes me think of something I say a lot which is, "don't put all your trust in a doctor who clearly doesn't know very much about the condition. Try and find a doctor who does." I know it's easier said than done. I've been around the block a few times with this (up to my 6th therapist for example). Personally I don't see my gp for mental health advice at all. She's useless in that department but exceptional with body health issues. In other words I use the professionals according to their strengths, not their weaknesses. And I generally don't think it's fair on us to have to wait while the doctors learns.. there's too much suffering which can go on in the meantime!

Odisa.. Why do you think there are legal reasons binding you to not expressing your views on the quality of doctors? Personally I think it's something which should be discussed here, b/c an unqualified/uneducated doctor handing out meds or even advice on dp can make people feel worse. Again I think that's unethical. Maybe they don't see they can make people worse with bad advice, but they can. IMO they need to learn about the illness before they start 'treating' patients.


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## odisa

Philos said:


> Odisa.. Why do you think there are legal reasons binding you to not expressing your views on the quality of doctors? Personally I think it's something which should be discussed here, b/c an unqualified/uneducated doctor handing out meds or even advice on dp can make people feel worse. Again I think that's unethical. Maybe they don't see they can make people worse with bad advice, but they can. IMO they need to learn about the illness before they start 'treating' patients.


I'm not sure; I'm uneducated on law, for I generally couldn't care less about it. It is that now that I am moderator of the Prescription Medication section, thus more so affiliated with DPSH, that I am cautious of such matters, for I don't wish to jeopardize DPSH in any way. All I can say, is that one should question their doctor - almost relentlessly - in order to gauge their competency. I cannot, and will not, state that one should completely abandon professional help. If your doctor is too keen on prescribing you medication, and doesn't know what most of GABA, SERT, LTP, 5HT, or BDNF stand for, the terms excitotoxicity, or neurogenesis, then it might be time to reconsider.

An example; the ENT specialist I saw, didn't know that ototoxicity was observed to be mediated via NMDARs, so when I asked him whether taking D-Aspartate might exacerbate my hearing loss, I had to explain how it is an NMDAR agonist and that it converts to NMDA, and how excitotoxicity is a result of hyperactivation of NMDARs, and that when this is cochlearly localized, that it may interact with hearing. Only then did he say "If it's potentially ototoxic, don't take it". When I asked him about intracochlear BDNF infusions (which have been observed to improve hearing loss outcome), he said he didn't know what BDNF was. Sure, you can give a doctor a bit of leeway on certain things (you can't expect them to know everything), but generally speaking if they don't know the latest, most important developments in their field, it's quite indicative that they're not very good doctors (or at least disinterested doctors, which can be relatively synonymous in some cases).

Obviously, a GP would know far less about pharmacology than a psychiatrist would should. This is why I don't agree with the practice that GPs can prescribe psychiatric medication, but considering the huge waiting lists for most psychiatric institutes, it's understandable. Also, if a doctor is genuinely motivated to help you, and is honest about what he doesn't know, that tends to be a good thing, for they will likely help you find someone who can help you, or even educate themselves to better understand what you need.

Anyhow, I'm glad you spawned the topic. It would be great to have a directory of DP specialists, or at least professionals who have worked with it. Then members can rate their experience with the doctor in question, and people seeking help in their location could see which is nearby. How does that sound?


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## Guest

odisa said:


> An example; the ENT specialist I saw, didn't know that ototoxicity was observed to be mediated via NMDARs, so when I asked him whether taking D-Aspartate might exacerbate my hearing loss, I had to explain how it is an NMDAR agonist and that it converts to NMDA, and how excitotoxicity is a result of hyperactivation of NMDARs, and that when this is cochlearly localized, that it may interact with hearing. Only then did he say "If it's potentially ototoxic, don't take it". When I asked him about intracochlear BDNF infusions (which have been observed to improve hearing loss outcome), he said he didn't know what BDNF was. Sure, you can give a doctor a bit of leeway on certain things (you can't expect them to know everything), but generally speaking if they don't know the latest, most important developments in their field, it's quite indicative that they're not very good doctors (or at least disinterested doctors, which can be relatively synonymous in some cases).


I don't blame you for your wariness in this example. It's perfectly obvious excitotoxicity is the result of hyperactivation of the NMDAR's!! &#8230; .. well, ok I'll admit I haven't got a clue what you're talking about&#8230; lol

Ohhh.. my online dictionary just blew up...

Man, I thought I was 'a doctors nightmare', but you exceed even my best efforts!

Just joking.. no offence intended.

Yep.. I agree to be careful and cautious when accepting doctors advice. 'Listening' to gut instincts can play it's part here too. And Doctors who don't know about dissociation usually show us with their body language anyway&#8230;


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## Guest

Question or two..

I'm no scientist here but, the way I see it is, the brain is an incredibly delicate organ. The chemical and electrical processes that happen inside our brain are far too complicated for our scientists to understand fully atm. One day maybe, but there's a long way to go obviously. Pharmacology is obsessed with altering this delicate balance in an attempt to make us think differently. Is that correct? If so, how can a medication/chemical target such incey wincey microscopic individual areas so precisely without upsetting the natural balance elsewhere? My experience with meds left me feeling dull and lifeless. It felt like a whole department of my brain was knocked out unconscious. I was completely emotionally flat.

Ohhh I dunno.. seems we put a lot of faith into research and meds that has so far to go it's not funny. I've heard docs say "well, that's the best we've got." Sure, no doubt it is, but&#8230;..

To me, messing around with the incredibly delicate chemical balance in our brains, when the 'experts' don't really know what the full picture of what their messing with, is playing with fire. There's too much 'hit or miss' IMO.

And besides.. is it true what I was told a couple of years back from an psychiatrist (specialised in the field of dissociation for 22 years).. when she said "there is no medication targeted to help dissociation? I took it as the truth but if anyone knows any better, I'm all ears...

Nuther question.. one which I think about every now and again and I'd really like to understand more . How can medication alter the way the mind works? After all, isn't the basis of dissociation about the way we think? I know I'm standing on a limb here (and I've barely got a clue about what I'm talking about lol) but my understanding is dissociation is, it's about the way the mind works. I see the mind as being everywhere in our body, not just our heads. And further still, years ago I heard accounts of people having a heart transplant and getting memories of the donator! They deduced that there were memories held in the heart. From memory, that was not uncommon. Is that proof that the mind resides in other parts of the body? I've also had experiences of 'seeing' parts of my mind outside my body. I've talked to people who've experienced the exact same thing, even down to the details of thin tethers connected between head and the parts of mind outside. So that brings me to my question about meds. How do you expect to change the mind when it isn't even just inside the brain and can even be outside the body?

In short.. It appears the brain is far too complex for the scientific community to understand fully yet, let alone how the mind works. Let them do their research and experiments, and when they really know what they're doing well maybe then it's the time to start playing with fire..

Does any of that make any sense? &#8230; to anybody?

All comments welcome&#8230;


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## *Dreamer*

> Nuther question.. one which I think about every now and again and I'd really like to understand more . How can medication alter the way the mind works? After all, isn't the basis of dissociation about the way we think? I know I'm standing on a limb here (and I've barely got a clue about what I'm talking about lol) but my understanding is dissociation is, it's about the way the mind works. I see the mind as being everywhere in our body, not just our heads. And further still, years ago I heard accounts of people having a heart transplant and getting memories of the donator! They deduced that there were memories held in the heart. From memory, that was not uncommon. Is that proof that the mind resides in other parts of the body? I've also had experiences of 'seeing' parts of my mind outside my body. I've talked to people who've experienced the exact same thing, even down to the details of thin tethers connected between head and the parts of mind outside. So that brings me to my question about meds. How do you expect to change the mind when it isn't even just inside the brain and can even be outside the body?


Some triggers or spoilers below. How do I make a spoiler anyone? Thanks.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

IMHO, and I will get kicked in the knees for this ... I see mind and brain as equivalent. They are one and the same. I understand many people have a more spiritual view of the life and existence. I don't. I never really did -- I was raised by atheists who didn't know how to express love.

I also have some problems with the stories of individuals saying they take on the personality of an individual from an organ transplant (the heart as you said). I could cite examples, but won't go off topic.

In re: meds. If rec drugs change the way you feel, perceive and behave, well so do Rx drugs. That's a fact. Stimulating the brain with electrodes can make you feel, perceive and behave in different ways. Individuals who have had major head trauma can have a change in personality -- that is serious brain injury (damage to white matter, etc.) I always forget the name of the guy who had a stick through his head or something -- Phineus Gage?" -- and after that damage his personality changed -- a famous case.

I think this frightens people as one says, "Where is the soul?" How can we be only our brains? And I suppose this can be something of a DP/DR trigger. "What am I, who am I?" I would have had trouble discussing this in the past. Now, it doesn't bother me. If I focused on this concept, I could make the DP/DR worse -- start the old rumination process.

I believe it is possible, and for the very reason that each brain is so unique and so complex, that makes up who we are. But think of identical twins who share all of their genetic material (as far as I understand) -- some will act very differently from the other, but many have many strange similarities in terms of their personal tastes, mannerisms, personalities.


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## *Dreamer*

My brain still works! 55 years old and my brain still works, LOL.

From Wikipedia:

*Phineas P. Gage* (1823-1860) was an American railroad construction foreman remembered for his improbable[C]survival of a rock-blasting accident in which a large iron rod was driven completely through his head, destroying much of his brain's left frontal lobe, and for that injury's reported effects on his personality and behavior over the remaining twelve years of his life-effects so profound that (for a time at least) friends saw him as "no longer Gage."

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/phineas-gage-neurosciences-most-famous-patient-11390067/?no-ist


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## Guest

*Dreamer* said:


> Some triggers or spoilers below. How do I make a spoiler anyone? Thanks.
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> IMHO, and I will get kicked in the knees for this ... I see mind and brain as equivalent. They are one and the same. I understand many people have a more spiritual view of the life and existence. I don't. I never really did -- I was raised by atheists who didn't know how to express love.
> 
> I also have some problems with the stories of individuals saying they take on the personality of an individual from an organ transplant (the heart as you said). I could cite examples, but won't go off topic.
> 
> In re: meds. If rec drugs change the way you feel, perceive and behave, well so do Rx drugs. That's a fact. Stimulating the brain with electrodes can make you feel, perceive and behave in different ways. Individuals who have had major head trauma can have a change in personality -- that is serious brain injury (damage to white matter, etc.) I always forget the name of the guy who had a stick through his head or something -- Phineus Gage?" -- and after that damage his personality changed -- a famous case.
> 
> I think this frightens people as one says, "Where is the soul?" How can we be only our brains? And I suppose this can be something of a DP/DR trigger. "What am I, who am I?" I would have had trouble discussing this in the past. Now, it doesn't bother me. If I focused on this concept, I could make the DP/DR worse -- start the old rumination process.
> 
> I believe it is possible, and for the very reason that each brain is so unique and so complex, that makes up who we are. But think of identical twins who share all of their genetic material (as far as I understand) -- some will act very differently from the other, but many have many strange similarities in terms of their personal tastes, mannerisms, personalities.


Thanks Dreamer.. I think your answer makes much more sense than my question! lol

Yeah I agree about the Rx drugs and rec drugs both altering our 'heads'.. but I'm not sure sure I agree in saying mind and brain as equivalent? I wish I had more words around about now about both, but I don't. All I can do is throw my crazy assed theories 'out there' once in a while.. Where are all the neurologists around about now to help us??????

I'l think some more later..


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## Meticulous

Scuba Sam says don't do meds.


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## Juliagulia

I'm not sure what the current topic of this thread is, because I didn't read all the way to the end. But I just want to give my input on the original debate.

I would not be here today if it wasn't for lorazepam.

Also, I have known people with anxiety or depression that suffered dp/dr as a secondary symptom to those illnesses, and medication relieved them of depression and anxiety and also dp/dr.

In my case, my dp/dr is a secondary symptom to anxiety disorders as well. My anxiety disorder is the result of a chemical imbalance in my brain. Meds balance it out, and relieve other symptoms that come along as a result of anxiety.

I do not have knowledge about treating stand-alone dp/dr with meds. But I can speak for those that are experiencing it as a secondary symptom.

I fully believe that anyone suffering severely of any mental illness should utilize the right to try a med if they feel they are having trouble coping, and for those whose illness is caused more by nature than nurture, meds truly can be extremely helpful and life changing.

But that is just my opinion. We have come a long way with psychiatric medicine and for many, it is the factor needed to recover. There are many people that are able to recover without ever using a med, which is wonderful. But for many people, it is a chemical imbalance that needs to be treated chemically.


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## Guest

Juliagulia said:


> I'm not sure what the current topic of this thread is, because I didn't read all the way to the end. But I just want to give my input on the original debate.
> 
> I would not be here today if it wasn't for lorazepam.
> 
> Also, I have known people with anxiety or depression that suffered dp/dr as a secondary symptom to those illnesses, and medication relieved them of depression and anxiety and also dp/dr.
> 
> In my case, my dp/dr is a secondary symptom to anxiety disorders as well. My anxiety disorder is the result of a chemical imbalance in my brain. Meds balance it out, and relieve other symptoms that come along as a result of anxiety.
> 
> I do not have knowledge about treating stand-alone dp/dr with meds. But I can speak for those that are experiencing it as a secondary symptom.
> 
> I fully believe that anyone suffering severely of any mental illness should utilize the right to try a med if they feel they are having trouble coping, and for those whose illness is caused more by nature than nurture, meds truly can be extremely helpful and life changing.
> 
> But that is just my opinion. We have come a long way with psychiatric medicine and for many, it is the factor needed to recover. There are many people that are able to recover without ever using a med, which is wonderful. But for many people, it is a chemical imbalance that needs to be treated chemically.
> 
> Very insightful and in my opinion spot on!


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