# For all those on medication



## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Get off them....They are absolute crap and baloney. Nature has the answers, man cannot beat it as much as they think they can.....

Even for those that medication has helped, its not going to be a long term fix...and you know it.

The power that made the body, heals the body. Do we consciously heal a cut through medication.....? I am pretty positive it is the body that does it....


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## +[ thedeadpoet ]+ (Jul 23, 2006)

Taking Anti-Depressants was the worst mistake I've made in my life. Prior to taking them, I was depressed, but now I'm suicidal, dp'd and anxious to the point of collapse.

I hate absoloutely everything and everyone. Life is...empty - as am I.


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## widescreened (Jun 22, 2005)

The Dead Poet, try to stay positive. There is a way out of this mess if you just keep serching and looking until you find it. Never give up hope.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2006)

--


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

Jeremy why is it that you always make pointless posts like these that are only going to piss people off? It just makes you look like a dumb troll.

Making blanket statement's like all medication's are crap and you should not take them is just stupidty. Would you advise a diabetic to stop taking insulin? If that person did they would most certainly die.

If a schizophrenic or a person with bipolar stopped taking there meds they may not die right away but their chances of dying would certainly go up. There level of functioning would also go down.

I function much better on my meds then off them and i intend to stay on them for a long time. If i went off them i would most likely be in pretty bad shape fairly quickly.

Someone with a mild mental disorder might be able to get along with taking whatever shat you call natural and if they do more power to them. But someone who has a serious mental disorder is most likely not going to be cured by whatever so called natural remedy your trying to pawn off.

Besides alot of meds are based from naturally occuring substances or atleast are derived from them. The whole natural is better thing is just a pointless argument.

I feel guilty for even responding to your post.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2006)

Meds are made to help people, if we could all get by using the natura method, no one would have invented medications in the first place.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2006)

Jeremy is partialy right. For some people meds cause more problem than heal and thats a fact.

I got off the meds a month ago after being almost a decade on them and I feel much much better. I believe they increased my dpdr.

However, that doesnt mean I wouldnt take them again if I felt really down, but this time I wouldnt take it long term.


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## Universal (May 30, 2005)

comfortably numb said:


> I function much better on my meds then off them and i intend to stay on them for a long time. If i went off them i would most likely be in pretty bad shape fairly quickly.


I feel the same way. I'm not pro-meds, but I'm not against medication either. I think a balance between trying to help yourself naturally and chemically is necessary. I don't know if medication has helped to CURE my problems, but it is rather a way to manage them.


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## missjiller (Sep 8, 2006)

if i didn't have medication, the endless mind chatter would leave me unable to work, unable to spend time with my family because of severe anxiety about everything. obsessive thoughts would slice through me constantly scaring me so badly that i just want to die. that's how i was before i started celexa. now i have a great job & live with my boyfriend instead of in my rents' house, i believe meds helped me through something that could have turned me to a dark place that i couldn't come back from. i'm not cured, i know that much- but at least i have a quality of life & i can enjoy everything i always did. people who are anti-meds have obviously not been in a rough enough situation to know how badly they are needed sometimes. i was anti-meds before being dp'd, depressed & anxious.... but when your turn at the wheel comes you'll think very differently... anything to help you pull through the horror that everyone on this board is going through.


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## PAXIS (Aug 12, 2006)

Jgard10 said:


> Meds are made to help people, if we could all get by using the natura method, no one would have invented medications in the first place.


$$


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## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

egassem_lanimilbus said:


> Jgard10 said:
> 
> 
> > Meds are made to help people, if we could all get by using the natura method, no one would have invented medications in the first place.
> ...


the top 10 Pharam companies have more combined wealth than the other top 490 companies in the world. they make sure and spend some of that money convincing people that we need their pills "as much as a diabetic needs insulin"...but even diabetes has natural cures.

the single worst mistake of my life was not beleiving in my own body's ability to heal and popping pills, and i still am cuz i'm severly addicted to pills that now turned against me. imho, that's what a real dumb troll looks like.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

> Jeremy why is it that you always make pointless posts like these that are only going to piss people off? It just makes you look like a dumb troll.


Because if I was as uninformed about medication, the dangers of it and the simple things we can do to help ourselves as a lot of young people on here seem to be, and some comment as controversial as it was caused me to stop, think and research it further I would be a very grateful human being



> Making blanket statement's like all medication's are crap and you should not take them is just stupidty. Would you advise a diabetic to stop taking insulin? If that person did they would most certainly die.


Diabetes is reversable through natural methods. I just watched a trailer of a documentary in which 6 diabetics went on a raw food diet for 30 days. At the end 5 had beaten their diabetes, the one that didnt was the one who dropped out halfway because he just couldnt handle not eating junk food. Seeing one lady jump around in joy after taking her blood sugar reading was priceless.



> If a schizophrenic or a person with bipolar stopped taking there meds they may not die right away but their chances of dying would certainly go up. There level of functioning would also go down.





> I function much better on my meds then off them and i intend to stay on them for a long time. If i went off them i would most likely be in pretty bad shape fairly quickly.


The unfortunate thing is what information do we know about the long term effects of medication? I can guess that it puts stress on the liver and the body in general and long term that is not a good thing.

The reason that you would feel bad is that symptoms are in fact feedback from your body that you are not living congruently. Your body is trying to tell you to rebalance yourself and change your thought patterns and lifestyle.



> Someone with a mild mental disorder might be able to get along with taking whatever shat you call natural and if they do more power to them. But someone who has a serious mental disorder is most likely not going to be cured by whatever so called natural remedy your trying to pawn off.


The fact is that many a person have recovered from serious mental "disorders" naturally. Research it and you might be surprised by what you find. I was witness on Friday night to an amazing experience in which a lady who has breast cancer and was undergoing chemo was given an amazing therapy involving essential oils and at the end the deep pain in her bones (side effects of the chemo) had completely dissipated. Miracles do not surprise me any more...in fact I expect them.



> Besides alot of meds are based from naturally occuring substances or atleast are derived from them. The whole natural is better thing is just a pointless argument.


Indeed they are. Aspartame is also made from naturally occurring substances, yet together they are extremely toxic.

Why is it that when doctors go on strike, the death rate decreases?

Why is it that when Japan raised their age of first vaccination to 2 years old, SIDS pretty much disappeared?

Why is it that schools receive money everytime they put a kid on Ritalin?

Why is it that the US spends the most in the world in healthcare, yet lag behind in 37th place in terms of actual health?


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Haven't heard from you for a while, Jeremy, was pleased to see you had posted - I know with your posts that I am guaranteed something silly.

Do you have delusions of self-sufficiency? Can you not bear to accept that you might not know it all, or that you might not have something you want? You should be grateful we have an National Health Service in our country. I can't see you surviving a life-threatening illness without it, unless you went private of course.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

miss_starling said:


> Haven't heard from you for a while, Jeremy, was pleased to see you had posted - I know with your posts that I am guaranteed something silly.
> 
> Do you have delusions of self-sufficiency? Can you not bear to accept that you might not know it all, or that you might not have something you want? You should be grateful we have an National Health Service in our country. I can't see you surviving a life-threatening illness without it, unless you went private of course.


Self sufficiency is not in fact a delusion. Its occurring around you all the time. I dont actually know it all either... Dont even pretend to. But what I do know makes complete sense.

For the past 5 years I have been in the UK, not once have I used the NHS or even thought about it for that matter. Yet I pay my large national insurance contribution monthly. In fact I havent ever used a national health service in my life and I am 100% certain I won't need to unless I am involved in a life threatening accident.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Im glad I provide some amusement for you anyway Miss Starling, humour is great for healing.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

comfortably numb said:


> Jeremy why is it that you always make pointless posts like these that are only going to piss people off? It just makes you look like a dumb troll.
> 
> Making blanket statement's like all medication's are crap and you should not take them is just stupidty. Would you advise a diabetic to stop taking insulin? If that person did they would most certainly die.
> 
> ...


Jeremy,
I feel guilty responding as well. This post doesn't deserve acknowledgement. I shouldn't dignify your comments, but I have to respond anyway.

I was just at a two day NAMI conference in Lansing where we learned about addressing the public "In Our Own Voice" about mental illness. Everyone from other consumers of mental health care, to providers, to the police, to schools, families, etc.

The bulk of the members of the group were bipolar, schizophrenic, schizoaffective, etc., etc., etc. Many have lived for years, homeless, hopeless, one had been in prison for committing armed robbery when he didn't know what he was doing, many were substance abusers, one young woman had a perfectly wonderful upbringing and was cut down w/bipolar when she was around 23. She has been able to pull herself out of repeated hospitalizatioins, gone back to get an MA, because of Lamictal.

Every one of these people were returned to more or less normal lives, some with greater quality than others because of their medication. I personally wouldn't be writing this without my medication.

If you interact with the seriously mentally ill (and they look just like "normal" people -- some are far sicker than others though) you will understand. You can't, unless you have spent time, even a day with someone who has serious mental illness.

Medication has saved their lives, and none of them like to be on it, but they have accepted that they must. They also know the importance of nutrition, exercise, coping skills, etc.

But meds for many have saved them from upwards of 20 hospitalizations. TWENTY in a span of 15 years or less. Suicide attempts, self mutilation, loss of social and occupational functioning on any level.

Live a few days in these peoples' shoes and you'll sing a different tune. There was a video on other sufferers. One gentleman was in his 60s. Because of treatment of his schizophrenia he was able to run a Fortune 500 company, is retired and writing a memoir.

When you say things things, I can only say you are grossly uninformed.

Also:


jeremy said:


> Diabetes is reversable through natural methods. I just watched a trailer of a documentary in which 6 diabetics went on a raw food diet for 30 days. At the end 5 had beaten their diabetes, the one that didnt was the one who dropped out halfway because he just couldnt handle not eating junk food. Seeing one lady jump around in joy after taking her blood sugar reading was priceless.


If that were true, my friend's daughter who had juvenile onset diabetes at 3 years old and keeps to a strict diet and has given herself insulin for years would be dead. She DOES take care of herself as do many diabetics. If she ate junk food, didn't take care of herself, and didn't take her insulin she would be dead. In about 24 hours. If your pancreas doesn't work, it doesn't work. That's like saying if someone has had a stroke, they can will their way out of it, especially if they take vitamins? They can greatly improve with physical therapy, many can't.

And that is true of Type 1 diabetes.

If you are referring to Type 2, which is adult onset. That can be treated with diet. But there comes a point of no return on that too. And some get Type II even if they HAVE taken care of their health.

Also, many women get diabetes in pregnancy. Women can get very ill in pregnancy, and get post partum depression, eclampsia, etc., etc. All of these things must be treated, and they have to be done carefully, and so many women DO take excellent care of themselves during pregnancy. I also know several women who have developed diabetes during pregnancy. I don't know what sets it off, but it is common and life threatening.

Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

Finally:



jeremy said:


> The unfortunate thing is what information do we know about the long term effects of medication? I can guess that it puts stress on the liver and the body in general and long term that is not a good thing.


Don't think many people stop taking psychotropic meds because of horrible side effects. Many seriously mentally ill people do stop, but many realize the risk/benefit, work with their psychiatrists to find the best meds. They prefer functioning, going back to work, having relationships, having a place to live, having a car to the devastation of their illnesses.

All people must make an informed choice. We have to educate doctors, and doctors need to educate us. It's give and take.

Again, walk a mile in someone else's shoes, jeremey. See truly mentally ill people, see what they have to say, and they will say, they would be dead, hospitalized, homeless, jailed, having had their 12th series of ECT, if it weren't for their meds. And they are aware of liver damage, tardive diskenesia (I saw several who have it, they ARE NOT IDIOTS, they have brain disorders that need treatment), kidney damage, etc., etc.

New meds have fewer side effects, but nothing is perfect.

But for them, it is a legitimate, informed trade off.
We all have a choice, we can make an informed choice.
I currently am dropping into a deeper and deeper depression and am working with my doctor to switch meds. This weekend nearly killed me. I forced myself through two full days of training to give presentations. I was crying during every break, my anxiety was through the roof, agitation, stomach problems, hopelessness.

I know it's time to have a meds adjustment.

I push on, and still get kicked in the head. So do many others, with mental illness and other illnesses.

I'm telling you, meet and speak with a diabetic who's taken care of him/herself since childhood, speak to someone with schizophrenia ... they don't bite ... listen to THEM.

I don't want to be sick, I don't want to be on meds, but for me, they're all that help me, and have helped for years. And I am almost 48. And I am NOT the exception.

D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Note the gentleman in his 60s, successful businessman, writer, has been on antipsychotic medication for about 30 years. Again, without it, he would be dead, or "lost in the system." More than likely he would have been placed in a State Hospital.

There are MANY successful, famous, and just plain regular people that you's NEVER know had serious mental illness, and you'd NEVER know that they are on many meds.

Meds are not magic. THey are not "cured." But they have a quality of life that can't even compare to the many years they went untreated, self-medicated with drugs and alcohol, etc., etc., etc.

Also, many don't have the money to crawl out of a pit to buy supplements, not to mention medications. They can't even think straight to get on a bus to go to the grocery, or hear voices telling them to kill themselves.

If "natural remedies" worked, a good portion of the prison population would be eliminated. Many are first diagnosed and treated after they have committed a crime.

Meds or prison? Meds or the street? Meds or self-mutilation? Meds or being killed by a taser gun -- heart attack usually? (police get frightened too when they're mistaken for monsters and attacked with screw drivers). Meds or no quality of life?

You decide.
After you talk with someone that sick.

And those of us on the Board, we have a choice. Don't attack those who have made the meds choice.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

I have never said getting well and staying well naturally is easy, but that it is possible. If others can, and you think you cant the only difference between the 2 is a limiting belief.

And for those that can't get well from a stroke with vitamins is it possible that emotional issues have caused the stroke? I would say if you don't respond to physical support, there is an emotional issue that needs to be addressed.

Illness is not bad luck and you don't have to live with it, which it seems a lot of people on here think it is.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

jeremy said:


> I have never said getting well and staying well naturally is easy, but that it is possible. If others can, and you think you cant the only difference between the 2 is a limiting belief.
> 
> And for those that can't get well from a stroke with vitamins is it possible that emotional issues have caused the stroke? I would say if you don't respond to physical support, there is an emotional issue that needs to be addressed.
> 
> Illness is not bad luck and you don't have to live with it, which it seems a lot of people on here think it is.


Jeremy,
Bottom line, you are grossly uninformed. You have little or no knowlegdge of interaction with the mentally ill or the physically ill.

I know you work for a chiropractor, but without even knowing the details of the fact that I've had an MRI which revealed spondylosis you recommended chriropractic which could have damaged my spine. If I had listened to you, I might not be walking.

I will be getting physical therapy for a problem that no "nutrient" will cure save in my case, exercise to avoid further deterioration. Taking calcium supplements is already part of my regimine, but even exercise has to be tailored to my needs. And I have been told that regardless of what I do, I may need rods in my back ... some years to come.

Hopefully they will have better and better procedures.

Jeremy, you are simply grossly misinformed. I hope many take what you say with a grain of salt.

And give people the credit of making their own decisions.

Yes, sometimes you come across as a troll!

Unbelievable.

D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Oh, yeah. And how old are you. Wait until the years pass and your body fails you, even if you take good care of yourself.

There are many people, much older than you are, who have lived w/DP most of their lives and have accomplished far more than you have.

You may not know them, but I have met many in person.

You are saying illness doesn't exist.

Well, I hope you never require medical treatment of any kind for the rest of your life.

Oh, yes, I may need Fosamax or whatever the Hell it's called at some future time. Should I NOT take it and let my spine disintegrate?

:roll:


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Dreamer said:


> jeremy said:
> 
> 
> > I know you work for a chiropractor, but without even knowing the details of the fact that I've had an MRI which revealed spondylosis you recommended chriropractic which could have damaged my spine. If I had listened to you, I might not be walking.
> > D


I recommended *seeing* a Chiropractor to see if they could help, not having a chiropractic adjustment.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

> Bottom line, you are grossly uninformed. You have little or no knowlegdge of interaction with the mentally ill or the physically ill.D


Im sorry but I actually do....everyday. And I see them get better everyday also.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

All I am trying to say Dreamer is that I feel it is possible to overcome your and everyone elses health issues. If you don't believe that then it is not possible. If you do then it is possible. But all it really comes down to is a belief.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2006)

If all it comes down to is belief than why did you say in your original post, "get off medication" you can believe your gonna get better and still be on medication.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Jgard10 said:


> If all it comes down to is belief than why did you say in your original post, "get off medication" you can believe your gonna get better and still be on medication.


Because medication causes health problems and are addictive. Once your on them it is hard to get off. Simple really.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

> The reason that you would feel bad is that symptoms are in fact feedback from your body that you are not living congruently. Your body is trying to tell you to rebalance yourself and change your thought patterns and lifestyle.


 The reason that i feel bad sometimes is because i have dp/dr, anxiety and bipolar. I dont think it has anything to do with feedback from my body telling me that im not living congruently.

I eat pretty good, im not overweight, i work out a regular basis (although i have been slacking abit as of late) and im overall pretty healthy.

Ive more or less had mental problems since i was born. Ive always had dp/dr and anxiety. And i also had terrible mood swings even as a child. I was pretty much born this way.

Now when im off my meds i get awful mood swings that include rage, intense happiness or just plain old depression where i can hardly move. When im manic i can go days without sleeping. Now is that very healthy? I think it's alot more unhealthy then being on seroquel to even me out.

You seem to have very little understanding of mental illness. If you actually had bipolar you would know that you cant simply change your thought patterns and make yourself normal.

When i get really bad my thoughts are all over the place and the thoughts i have seem to come out of the blue. My mind just races over and my thoughts get very black and depressing.

Dysphoric mania is absolutly horrible you cant control your thoughts. More often then not i end up in a rage and have sometimes punched on steel doors until my fists where bloody as hell. This is the most dangerous form of a mood swing when it comes to bipolar. People often kill themselves when they are in this mixed state as it's called. Your depressed but unlike simple depression you have more then enough energy to off yourself. I also get very impulsive when im like this.

Since ive been on meds for it i feel much better. My moods arent going up and down all day and i can function like a normal human being. Also the meds im taking for dp/dr have pretty much cured that altogether.

I dont know why im even bothering describing this because you cant understand what it's like unless youve had it. You cant will yourself out of mental illness it just doesent work that way. If that was the case nobody would have any mental problems at all. Noone wants to be mentally ill.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

jeremy said:


> I have never said getting well and staying well naturally is easy, but that it is possible. If others can, and you think you cant the only difference between the 2 is a limiting belief.


How do you change the belief? you cant force yourself to believe something, and simply choose to believe that you are healthy and a perfect human and it comes true simply by your will.


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2006)

My psych explained something to me to tell to people who say things like you just said jeremy. The mind isn't real. When a neurosurgeon opens up someone's head, he can't go, and there is the mind, and point to it. There are chemicals and receptors in our brain that cause problems, medications help these problems, to suggest you can will yourself out of it is bologna, because mental illnesses are just that, chemical problems in the brain and one question, did i read wrong or did it say somewhere in this article that u've never suffered from a mental illness? I may be wrong, but if you have not you have no business commenting on it, if you have i apolgize, i thought i may have read you didnt.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Jgard10 said:


> My psych explained something to me to tell to people who say things like you just said jeremy. The mind isn't real. When a neurosurgeon opens up someone's head, he can't go, and there is the mind, and point to it. There are chemicals and receptors in our brain that cause problems, medications help these problems, to suggest you can will yourself out of it is bologna, because mental illnesses are just that, chemical problems in the brain and one question, did i read wrong or did it say somewhere in this article that u've never suffered from a mental illness? I may be wrong, but if you have not you have no business commenting on it, if you have i apolgize, i thought i may have read you didnt.


Did you know that laughter creates a chemical change in the brain? Thoughts change your brain chemistry. Changing your brain chemistry through medication does not change your thoughts. Thoughts create emotion.

I would not say that I have suffered from a mental illness, yet I would say I have experienced a traumatic event, my body has done its best to protect itself and I am now well on my way to recovery!


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## HalfAPerson (Aug 22, 2006)

jeremy said:


> I have never said getting well and staying well naturally is easy, but that it is possible. If others can, and you think you cant the only difference between the 2 is a limiting belief.


The bottom line is that this is an opinion. MY opinion is that there are many people who benefit from the use of medication and that by and large pharmaceutical companies are not evil. Just as not all chiropractors are charlatans. The great thing about living in democracies is that we have CHOICES. We can go a natural route if that works for us and is of interest, or we can go the pharmaceutical route if that works for us and is of interest.

I was conflicted for many years whether or not to use meds in order to treat my anxiety and depression. I finally realized that I am able to function better and live a happier existance while on them. So what if companies are making money off of me as a result? They're helping me and I'm grateful for it.

Instead of listening to people spouting their beliefs as if they are completely factual, I think a better approach is to do what works for us and leave others' and their opinions alone.


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2006)

> Instead of listening to people spouting their beliefs as if they are completely factual, I think a better approach is to do what works for us and leave others' and their opinions alone.


Very Very True


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

HalfAPerson said:


> jeremy said:
> 
> 
> > I have never said getting well and staying well naturally is easy, but that it is possible. If others can, and you think you cant the only difference between the 2 is a limiting belief.
> ...


Well I am entitled to say what I wish within reason on a forum and of course the CHOICE is up to you whether you wish to reply, get upset or ignore what I have said.


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## HalfAPerson (Aug 22, 2006)

jeremy said:


> Well I am entitled to say what I wish within reason on a forum and of course the CHOICE is up to you whether you wish to reply, get upset or ignore what I have said.


Exactly. I've chosen to reply. I never said you weren't entitled to state your opinion. Your opinions are clear, but that doesn't mean they're right. The same can be said of mine, or of anyone's for that matter.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

HalfAPerson said:


> jeremy said:
> 
> 
> > Well I am entitled to say what I wish within reason on a forum and of course the CHOICE is up to you whether you wish to reply, get upset or ignore what I have said.
> ...


Yep. I know which gives a greater standard of life though.


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## HalfAPerson (Aug 22, 2006)

jeremy said:


> Yep. I know which gives a greater standard of life though.


For YOU.

Will you also tell me which books I should read, films I should watch, job I should hold, friends I should keep? No. So, it's not really your place to tell me I shouldn't take meds when they improve my quality of life.

If you're happy doing your own thing, more power to you. I think it's misguided to reference your own personal experiences as absolute truth. Anecdotal evidence more like it. You yourself have said you don't have a mental illness, so I don't think your anecdotal evidence is very reliable.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

jeremy said:


> Yep. I know which gives a greater standard of life though.


 It gives a greater quality of life for you but thats not the case for everyone. Everyone has to find what works for them and if you have found what works for you that's great.

But being med free would not give me a greater standard of life. In fact id be lucky to have much of a life at all.

I have no problems with you expressing your opinion's. They are no more or less valid then mine or anyone elses on this board for that matter. What pisses me off is your attitude towards other people's choices in dealing with their problems. You come off sounding like you think your superior just because you dont use any meds and use natural methods.

Anyway what im trying to say is that it's not you opinion's that piss me off it's just the way you express them.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

comfortably numb said:


> Ive more or less had mental problems since i was born. Ive always had dp/dr and anxiety. And i also had terrible mood swings even as a child. I was pretty much born this way.


Exactly. I too have been ill since I can recall. My mother hated me (she was a psychiatrist, she knew what was wrong, so there is indeed "evidence" -- she took notes on me!) because I was "defective."

How in God's name can a child be in control of a mental illness. And no, this wasn't created by the media -- I was born in 1958 when psychoanalysis was still very much in vogue and the approach even to treating schizophrenia!

Also, in reference to my friend's daughter with Juvenile onset diabetes. She was born with her pancreas NON-FUNCTIONAL. Her pancreas DOES NOT WORK, just as some people are born with heart defects, etc., etc. Her pancreas will NEVER produce insulin. She had seizures due to this when she was a tiny girl.

There is no such thing as a pancreatic transplant. And no supplement or cheery outlook will grow a pancreas. And by the way, she is a happy, outgoing, healthy college student ... who needs to monitor her sugar levels and take her meals and insulin at the specified times each day or she will die. Some supplements are DANGEROUS for her ... certain vitamins, etc, just as certain foods must be avoided.

Jeremy, when you start spouting this stuff, without concern for the decisions of others, I don't believe you have a thing wrong with you. Great. But WTHell are you doing on this forum?

I don't believe you have DP or any other mental disorder. And to say you have seen severely mentally ill people in a chiropractic's office is a joke. They don't have money for food, not to mention to go to a chiropractor. I DON'T HAVE MONEY TO GO TO A CHIROPRACTOR, IT'S NOT ON MY HEALTH INSURANCE. Many seriously mentally ill people have NO HEALTH INSURANCE and NO MONEY.

If you have an apartment, a car, maybe a house, that is a luxury, and so is getting your back realigned sp?

Tell me how many ILL schizoprhenics you see coming through your office. Perhaps some individuals who are on their meds (that you don't recognize as even being mentally ill) might come on in for back pain, but there is NO PROOF that chiropractic, or a "positive outlook" cures schizophrenia, or DP/DR for that matter.

I say, one can try whatever floats his/her boat. Hell, I've said many a time I'd drink turpentine if it worked.

Jeremy, I don't believe you are mentally ill. I don't believe you have DP/DR.

At this point it would take a lot to convince me. I won't dignify further repsponses.

I and everyone here is doing the best they can.

And if you can make my friend's daughter's pancreas work, well you can retire. And if your theories are so great, Hell, go out and help people.

Go out and heal.
This just infuriates me.
I will bet money I don't have, that you have never met someone in the throes of a serious mental illness. Maybe you saw a homeless person talking to him/herself on the street, but not in your office. Not possible.

And every organ in the body can malfunction. That includes the brain. And I think, there is this time in our lives called ... um ... death ... when we get old? Even on Star Trek they live longer, but they still die.

Dear God. :shock:


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## livinginhell333 (Feb 19, 2005)

i'm been taking anafranil for like over a month, i can't tell if its doing much. i still feel dped maybe not as depressed but maybe it could be helping a little, like when i'm at work i joke around more, i don't know if its me or the medicine but i don't really think about the dp/dr at work or with friends but i know its still there, i just don't know what else to do, this is going to my last med however, and ill give it a little more time and if it doesn't work i'm done with meds.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

comfortably numb said:


> Anyway what im trying to say is that it's not you opinion's that piss me off it's just the way you express them.


As the Brits say, "Spot On"

And again, for all people with one form of illness or another, a positive attitude, maintaining health as best one can is always beneficial, for crying out loud. Trying alternative remedies -- that's great.

But ... well, comfortably numb said it all.

And you haven't even cracked open a book on neurology -- a current one. There is plenty of info on the brain. More and more is revealed each day. But it is the most complex organ in the body. Yes, attitude helps, but try to find your attitude when you hear voices in your head telling you to cut your arms. Such people don't head to the chiropractor, or any doctor in that state.

They live or die if someone intervenes on their behalf.

GIVE PEOPLE HERE CREDIT FOR NOT BEING IDIOTS.


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## HughJarce (Oct 24, 2006)

Ha Ha Jeremy your arrogance is breathtaking, you write like you think you know all of the secrets to life and your confidence of never using the health service is laughable, so you know the future as well as all the secrets to health :lol:

You seem to think that you can manipulate your psyche by pure intention and you said "thoughts create emotion", for a start if you start forcing yourself to think something it is basically a form of violence toward yourself and there is a lot of evidence both scientific and from experts that emotion comes before thought (Read 'Destructive Emotions' by Daniel Goleman) so what you are saying is complete rubbish.

The body does have the ability to heal any ailment but it doesn't always do so, and the reasons why it doesn't are very complex and I dont think anyone who has ever lived fully understands why some people heal and some people dont, it isnt all to do with diet, thoughts and belief systems and if you think that it is then you are delluded.


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2006)

Seriously i just found out that SSRI'S lower testosterone, big mistake now I know why I haven't been making any good gains in bodybuilding.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

Radiohead said:


> Seriously i just found out that SSRI'S lower testosterone, big mistake now I know why I haven't been making any good gains in bodybuilding.


 I Knew they could cause weight gain but i didnt know that they could lower testosterone.

I take amitriptyline which is a tricyclic anti-depressant that is much worse for weight gain then ssri's. Before i developed serious chronic pain i made really good gain's in weight lifting while i was taking amitriptyline. At my best i could bench press 300 pound's. I made most of those gain's in about 5 or 6 month's. I never even took any suppliment's or anything like that.

But i was never into body building really. I worked out just for strength which is alot different then body building. The biggest i ever got was about 190lbs.

I looked around and i didnt find much info on ssri's lowering testosterone. But i wouldnt be suprised if they did have atleast a little effect. Are you sure it's not just the ssri making you more fatigued then normal and you arent working out as hard?


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## Jack30 (Apr 27, 2006)

I don't make meaningful gains in bodybuilding because I am a pussy.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Dreamer said:


> Oh, yeah. And how old are you.... :roll:


You can recommend as much as you want to Jeremy, but I get the impression that the need for the delusion of control is more powerful than the desire to open ones eyes and see what the world is really like.

Sorry, but aside from finding you funny Jeremy, I just cannot believe that someone can be so self-assured in their point of view, so self-satisfied that they have all the answers -that they are essentially better than God. It's awful to think you are actually let loose on members of the public because there are desperate people out there who will probably believe some of the stuff you are saying.

What is most astonishing is that even the hardened idealist turns back now and again and realises that the world doesn't match up to what they wish of it. That just doesn't seem to be the case for you. For some reason I get the impression that you are in your early to mid 30s and past the point of no return when it comes to investing in these New Age beliefs.

If the natural conservatism of aging isn't making you question your belief that "thoughts create everything", I don't know what will.

If thoughts are so important, then you really are a prime example of someone that needs their head sorting out. No wonder you are dissociated - your ideas have nothing to do with the real world.

As I've said before, to make out that you are in control of every aspect of your health, you have to deny that anything is external to you that could influence you beyond your control. How you could defend a belief like that I do not know. While some may go through a phase of being wacky, you seem to have embraced it as a life-long solution to your life, which only begs the question of what it is you feel so out of control of that you need to deny - what is the problem that you are trying to solve by reverting to this profound denial of natural cause and effect?
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


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## Jack30 (Apr 27, 2006)

Miss Starling...very eloquent. And right on the money. But you neglected to mention that our esteemed comrade Jeremy is also ignorant.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

Despite the fact that jeremy says he's not mentally ill he comes off as pretty unbalanced. I don't know if it's just ignorance or what but he just doesent seem right.

Atleast i have the sense to know that im screwed up while jeremy insists that he can just will himself into the magical land of absolutly no problems. Mental or physical. If that isint delusion's of grandeur i dont know what is.

Usually people like jeremy who are so sure that they know everything actually know sweet fukk all.

But miss starling stated the situation much better then i can.


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2006)

What happens to a healthy person who takes meds? People are often misdiagnosed and meds can harm them.


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## HughJarce (Oct 24, 2006)

In the big picture meds are oversubscribed, do more harm than good and in many cases create a chemical imbalance in people rather than correct one, but that does not mean that they are always useless and the answer lies in some new age theory.

It is the motto of many people in the new age community that "you create your own reality" and they say that such a view encourages people to take responsibility for your own life and generates a sense of personal power, but in reality this view is completely egotistical and narcissistic as it basically means that you believe that the sun moon and stars revolve around your thoughts and desires. I have dealt with many people in the alternative health business who believe this and often this view causes more guilt than it does power, or if it doesnt cause guilt it causes people to become judgemental and arrogant of other people who "choose" their suffering.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

yasko said:


> What happens to a healthy person who takes meds? People are often misdiagnosed and meds can harm them.


A "healthy person" doesn't usually seek the help of a doctor unless they are experiencing something wrong with their health, mental or otherwise. I know many people who don't seek help for many medical problems. And who likes to go to the dentist, even when their gums are bleeding, lol?

Also, there is so much stigma attached to mental illness, and so little health coverage, many don't seek help. Many minorities are ashamed to seek help as well. Mental illness is considered "a weakness of character."

Yes, there are mistakes in medicine, in all areas of medicine, and yes, there are misdiagnoses in mental illness -- especially with us with DP/DR, etc.

But we have the right to refuse treatment. If an Rx med of any kind causes bad side effects (for a medical condition or psychiatric condition) many pour the pills down the toilet.

We don't know the long-term consequences of many medications. And recall meds like Celebrex for pain, etc. were pulled from the market. I tried a med for IBS years back. It didn't work, so I stopped taking it. About 3 weeks after it was prescribed to me, the gastro's office called EVERY patient to tell them to stop it immediately.

If you watch the Discovery Health Channel, you will find misdiagnoses up the wazoo. Mistakes made in surgery that are outrageous. It has been said a hospital is a dangerous place to be. Many contract horrible infections in their when they only went in to have an appendix removed.

We have to live with medicine as it is. It's better than it was even 2 years ago. I take a risk getting a regular mammogram. But I am informed. It is my choice, risk/benefit.

We need to share information and inform our doctors. That's what this site is for.

And as I've said many times, I firmly believe that psychiatric disorders are medical/neurological, etc. And treating such disorders is extremely difficult as it is difficult to probe the brain.

Also, I'm always dumbfounded by those who take Rec drugs without asking "What is the long term effect of this?" Just my POV. I'd rather take a regulated drug than something off the street that is laced with who knows what and manufactured in someone's garage.

Many of us "self medicate" with these rec drugs only. Why not ask the same question of them? We even know excessive use of alcohol can destroy the liver and brain. Cigarettes can kill.

Again, IMHO.

Best,
D


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Dear Everyone, 
We have a saying in med school - " There is a thin line between a medicine and a poison". Anything foreign to the body carries a side effect with it. Its true. But this does not mean that the body itself is perfect, which is what I often hear from scientologists, etc....You know, if we could only solve the underlying issues, the body would snap back into its normal "healthy" status. Its just not necessarily true. I carry a gene, a gene which causes porphyria, which caused my DP. I control this through lifestyle and science. I've received healings from prayer. Do I think all people are sick because of spiritual/emotional problems? No, I dont. Sometimes I think that emotional/spiritual problems occur _because_ a person is sick - look at people born with mental illness. But I've also seen people - including myself - get more and more sick _after_ abuse or emotional hurt was inflicted on them. This is why I think prayer heals me - there is a spiritual component to my physical affliction. But it is only one component of several. Look in the Bible. The Hebrews took the idea of sin causing illness too far - they blamed everyone's disease on their "sinfulness" or emotional problems, or that of their parents. This was known in ancient Israel as "generational" sin. When the public asked Christ whether a woman was sick because of "her sins, or that of her parents", he simply replied "Neither", and healed her. Even Christ would not go too far with any one theory of the origin of sickness. He simply told us to try to alleviate it.

You can somehow say that all illness IS the cause of a rejection of God, perhaps by our first parents, Adam and Eve, and fine, I can agree with that. Maybe thats how prayer heals people of inherited conditions. But I also find it a slap in the face of the Creator of intelligence to deny the use of intelligence and science to treat disease. Why then would God allow me to have the mind I do? Or discover the things I have about mental illness and porphyria? I think God admires the wise use of His gifts, such as intelligence, to solve our problems. Its a responsible way of cleaning up our own mess. I encounter the denial of the use of science all the time in religious circles, and it just makes me sick. The denial of the realm of the physical, of the body, IS a denial of the realm of the spirit and the emotions - they are so intertwined in a human being that they cannot be seperated. I find that many people refuse medical treatment to wait for God to heal them in prayer, and I think that its a completely unbalanced view of prayer and God. Us doctors and scientists cant use a thing to help, treat, or cure someone that God hasnt created. God uses all things - and that includes psych meds. Yes, I think they are oversold to the general public. Yes, I think many of them can make mental illness worse because of their proclivity to make porphyrins.But not all of them do that, and those are the ones I recommend. Without a combination of prayer, diet, friends, and Lamictal, my former roommate would be a bipolar mess. Without Celexa, my grandfather wouldnt have slept after my grandmother died, and they are both saints. I dont think psych meds will be the leading treatments in the future, but they will always be around in a small capacity.

I understand what Jeremy says, but he throws the baby out with the bathwater. My goal in life is to integrate together different disciplines and fields of knowledge, rather than taking up the futile task of competing them against each other. Nutrition is necessary. Medicine is necessary. Science is necessary. Prayer is necessary. Human contact and People are necessary. We are not simply shells housing emotions or ghosts trapped in a shell, but fully integrated _human beings_. The sooner we realize that all of the different fields can be used together to find answers to human existence, the closer we will get to grasping the truth that there is goodness, deep down, in everything.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Homeskooled said:


> My goal in life is to integrate together different disciplines and fields of knowledge, rather than taking up the futile task of competing them against each other. Nutrition is necessary. Medicine is necessary. Science is necessary. Prayer is necessary. Human contact and People are necessary. We are not simply shells housing emotions or ghosts trapped in a shell, but fully integrated human beings. The sooner we realize that all of the different fields can be used together to find answers to human existence, the closer we will get to grasping the truth that there is goodness, deep down, in everything.


Yes, I believe this is the most logical approach, and for me for instance spirituality does not play as big a part, but as I said, try anything and everything that works for you to acheive the best quality of life possible. What works for one person may not work for another.

No one is forcing anyone to do anything here. We are sharing our experiences and opinions. And mine change, I am uncertain about things many times, I try to take in different theories.

Again, we are all unique, and indeed we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, and that includes meds, therapy, nutrition, exercise, supplements, and spirituality, etc., etc., etc.

Best,
D


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

IMHO, integration should be the aim of anyone with dissociation, which if psychological in orgin is about disintegraton of the self.

Most people probably eventually realise they are ill and disintegrated. It's worrying that some just don't want to take that step. To me that is just dancing with the illness.

I could only write about this because I have been there myself - apart from the initial shock of the dissociation, I denied it was an illness for a few months. It took many more months to shake off my dependence on some of the ideas I had acclimatised to during the illness. To me, the spiritual was everything, probably because I have felt like a spirit for most of my life - my subjective experience of the spirit is much more real than that of my body.

It just bothers me that people can so heavily invest in the idea that thoughts create everything - they might play a part, but why base your life around it if it makes you so afraid to think naturally. If you believe that thoughts create everything, you become afraid to think many things that are basically normal, like wanting to punch someone when they are aggressing you, or like having sex with someone you shouldn't be thinking about. It ain't perfect, but it's a side of yourself that if you don't accept, *will* assert itself more heavily, leading to really intrusive sexual and violent thoughts. It's like the mind needs freedom to be real. It can't be real if you are trying to control it all the time.

M2Cs
R


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Homeskooled said:


> My goal in life is to integrate together different disciplines and fields of knowledge, rather than taking up the futile task of competing them against each other.


Have you read any Ken Wilber? , he more or less has integrated all aspects of psychology, religion, medication, spirituality east and west into a comprehensive system and has answered a lot of questions I had about where all these different aspects of life fit in. He is the only guy I have found who has managed to do this convincingly.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Homeskooled said:


> My goal in life is to integrate together different disciplines and fields of knowledge, rather than taking up the futile task of competing them against each other.


I like this statement, and I appreciate I need to make changes in my attitude more to make this a reality for me because it is definetely the way of the future. I just dont like emotionally, physically and spiritually malnutritioned people being prescribed meds at the drop of a hat which it seems to be the norm these daysand that is what makes me extremely mad because people can have a happier life without this and I see it so often. Yes I agree science is very necessary, but what it is pursuing today is dangerous in my eyes. Kids on Ritalin just does not fit with me when there are so many other options.

In response to Osho about the New Age theory "You create your reality" and so on. I feel that this is true, not in a self centred way, but with the view that what you view in your mind (visualisation in a way) becomes reality. If you have negative images and thoughts rotating through your mind constantly, then surely that also becomes a reality. Thought does have a frequency and I acknowledge science for giving me that knowledge. There are so many techniques that can release the need for these thoughts and images that it resolves itself naturally and there is no need to control these thoughts and images which I agree is self violent. Science has shown that when you visualise yourself exercising, the muscles used in that particular exercise are actually being exercised themselves, so I say seek out ways in which to release the need or cause for these thoughts.

Also in response to the comment about choosing to be ill or what not. I dont think this is a character defect, just something that occurs and it is true that people get benefits from being ill...sympathy, not having to be alone, love etc etc And I know this because I thought like this at one stage also.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

jeremy said:


> Also in response to the comment about choosing to be ill or what not. I dont think this is a character defect, just something that occurs and it is true that people get benefits from being ill...sympathy, not having to be alone, love etc etc And I know this because I thought like this at one stage also.


Like Jack Nicholson's character in "Terms of Endearment" -- "Just when I thought I'd made a clean getaway ... "

Here I am to respond to this.

Let's see, from being ill, I have no sympathy from anyone and don't want it. I am more alone than I care to mention. I have little love in my life at the moment.

I could repeat this statement about many ill people in the world today.

You refer to that stupid old comment, archaic, of "secondary gain".

Sorry, mental illness in particular, when it is chronic and severe, ruins all of the GOOD things in life. And it is not a choice.

Also, if you read the NYTimes piece (a series) about a young girl of 8 born with multiple illnesses, hearing voices, etc., you would again see that even children get ill and even commit suicide.

I am not saying this is the case for folks here on the Board. We all have different outcomes. Come from different places, but honey, you haven't lived as illness slowly but surely saps people from your life.

It doesn't matter what the illnesses is, but if it is an illness that affects your ability to interact with others it is especially destructive.

*AND JEREMY, I HATE SHOUTING, BUT WOULD YOU PLEASE GIVE US A BACKGROUND ON YOUR ILLNESS, YOUR AGE, THE ONSET, HOW YOU WERE CURED, ETC. IN DETAIL PLEASE.

*

However, bottom line this is futile, as you are in you own world, which really lacks a great deal of empathy.

I would also love to hear the story of any schizophrenic or bipolar individual who has, when floridly ill, sought your help, or your chiropractor's help for their illness, and what exactly did that doctor do. It should be published in a medical journal. I would like to see that journal or a citation leading me to it.

From a legitimate journal. I think there is a Chiropractic Association that has a publication like JAMA, The Lancet.

More interested in your personal story and cure. Share it for God's sake, and don't judge other people.

Man, I should leave this alone, but there are some people who come along and drive me totally bannanas sp?

You're one of them.

CRAP.
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Curous what you would do if you ever had a mentally ill, or physically ill child. Perhaps a child with OMG an INHERITED/GENETIC birth defect. (Can't name all the thousands here, but you don't believe in genetics either so never mind.)

And I do disagree with some implication I think implied? by Homeskooled that our inherent nature is "perfection" or perfect health. Everyone in the world has some imperfect quality -- poor eyesight, flat feet, acne (not every kid/adult gets acne), just basic things, basic imperfects. Note for example we all don't look like movie stars. Some are born more beautiful/symmetrical really, slender, petite, or have hot bods or look like whoever your favorite celebrity is.

We are born with certain givens. We are then affected by our environment. Then at a certain point if we are educated we can make decisions about how to maintain the best quality of life we can. That includes everyone on this Earth.

Tell a kid starving in Calcutta to change his/her attitude. That'll go over well.

Cheers.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2006)

> Tell a kid starving in Calcutta to change his/her attitude. That'll go over well.


I dont think anyone could have said it better


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Dear Dreamer, 


> And I do disagree with some implication I think implied? by Homeskooled that our inherent nature is "perfection" or perfect health.


I dont know where people get these extrapolations from my posts. I've actually been saying the opposite - we inherit imperfections, and that is our "natural" state. Perfection is our supra or supernatural state. _That_ is something we, and humanity, grow into, by allowing God's Love into us.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Sorry double post, I'm with you Home, I misread what you wrote, see below. Jeremy makes me furious and I've gone beyond the pale.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Homeskooled said:


> Dear Dreamer,
> 
> 
> > And I do disagree with some implication I think implied? by Homeskooled that our inherent nature is "perfection" or perfect health.
> ...


Dear Home,
I'm sorry, I misread this first sentence -- I underlined the part I thought you were saying, and you were attributing it to the very people I'm complaining about. I'm in a foul mood over this confusion. I do agree with the holistic approach. I misread that sentence, I'm sorry.



Homeskooled said:


> We have a saying in med school - " There is a thin line between a medicine and a poison". Anything foreign to the body carries a side effect with it. Its true. But this does not mean that the body itself is perfect, which is what I often hear from scientologists, etc....You know, if we could only solve the underlying issues, the body would snap back into its normal "healthy" status. Its just not necessarily true. I carry a gene, a gene which causes porphyria, which caused my DP. I control this through lifestyle and science. I've received healings from prayer. Do I think all people are sick because of spiritual/emotional problems? No, I dont. .............


Apologies, I just read it too fast, and read it incorrectly.
Yipes, I'm sorry.
Forgive!
D


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2006)

well one thing is for sure, since I quit all my meds about a month ago I feel really good. Is this just temporary?, only time will tell.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2006)

Most people who try to get off there meds have such horrible rebound symptoms that it's nearly impossible, why put yourself through that


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## widescreened (Jun 22, 2005)

This is one of the longest threads Ive ever read on this board.

I think that humans are fallible creatures, subject to disease and erosion like all other species on the planet. To suggest that you can avoid going to the dentist, a surgeon, or any doctor over the course of a lifetime by sticking to a holistic regieme is suicide.

We are all going to die, and we will get sick along the way there. once we accept this, our mortality and learn to make the most of our time, the happier we will live. If this involves reducing pain or affliction that compromises our abbility to function physically or mentally, then visits to doctors is a prerequisite. if you had a child, would you not vaccinate hhim/her against tb, polio, rubella etc and if you were going to the tropics, would you not get the jabs for yellow fever, hep a, hep b, and the others? I think to fly in the face of science and medicine is pure folly.

I went to a chiropractor several times 8 years ago. it is about as useful for me as cracking my knuckles, and based on the same principle, except much more expensive. In fact there is a large arguement that suggests chiropractiors do much more damage than good . Do yoga, stretching exercises, swim. Save youre money.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2006)

> In fact there is a large arguement that suggests chiropractiors do much more damage than good .


That's why doctors and chiropractors are like police and firefighters, they just dont agree


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Dreamer said:


> You refer to that stupid old comment, archaic, of "secondary gain".
> ......
> *AND JEREMY, I HATE SHOUTING, BUT WOULD YOU PLEASE GIVE US A BACKGROUND ON YOUR ILLNESS, YOUR AGE, THE ONSET, HOW YOU WERE CURED, ETC. IN DETAIL PLEASE.
> *
> ...


Dear Jeremy,
The problem with the theory of secondary gain is that it assumes the person has a choice on the matter. I myself thought I was escaping into a dissociated state for some type of gain, and have also been told that by a psychiatrist. But no matter how much I have wished to escape over the years, the fact is that I was unable to escape out of my mind before but I am able to do that now. As far as I can see, it is a form of illness that I have this capacity to dissociate. On the few occassions that I feel well again, that is when I begin to feel sad about what I have lost, that I have been trapped in this alternative world for almost three years, have suffered the physical consequences of chronic stress...have at times not felt strong enough to attack life like I used to. It's not like I was ever a "confident person", but I had some confidence in my mind, and now that is all but lost. I do not believe that I would sacrifice all that has been lost during this process for the sake of feeling like a ball of fluff. I simply don't believe that I have willed this on, just as I don't believe that diabetic people will their illnesses on. A few months after becoming unwell, I realised I had to try and get back to normal, and while I could improve my condition a little, I haven't been able to fully recover. In the past, I have shown extrodinary will and ambition, but I don't dare to have ambition anymore as it seems pointless and I do not have the mental capabilities to see it through when I am in this mental state.

...so please look at this theory of secondary gain! 
The assumptions are flawed.

And it seems all too concenient that you will not mention any of your own problems here. I expect this is because you don't want to admit you have any needs, or unfulfilled aspects of your life. You are too hell-bent on presenting yourself as perfect. Ah, you remind me too much of myself. You must come to this board for something other than to help people? Maybe I am wrong?

On the last point, about lack of empathy. I expect that Jeremy will find that a strange comment. I would just like to use myself as an example here, again, cos I am a good example of someone that thought they were empathetic for a long while when I was far from it.

In order to have empathy, you must reach the human aspects of yourself and then reach the human aspects of someone else, or other people. Ie. through knowing your own humanity, you can see that other people are human and be a bit more easy on them. If you are so narcissistically determined to believe that you have no needs, that no ambition is too big, it is impossible for you to reach your human side. Therefore, how can you reach the human side of other people? I propose that it is impossible to accept other peoples' short-comings if you deny your own, and live with the idea that the world, yourself and other people are meant to be a certain way...perfect.

The fact is that you are not perfect, no one is. If you could allow yourself to feel this, you could discover a large part of yourself and begin to live sincerely.

Until that time, you write in your own interests, even if it appears to be for other people.

If you had really thought about the impact of writing about drugs all being bad, how could you have posted it? Can't you see that people are vulnerable and need little crutches to rely on now and again?

Doctors aren't solely responsible for the drug culture - there is a demand for it. And even if there are better ways of dealing with disease, people have limitations and can't be blamed for choosing to take drugs.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

miss_starling said:


> And it seems all too concenient that you will not mention any of your own problems here. I expect this is because you don't want to admit you have any needs, or unfulfilled aspects of your life. You are too hell-bent on presenting yourself as perfect. Ah, you remind me too much of myself. You must come to this board for something other than to help people? Maybe I am wrong?


This comment touched me. I don't like to present my problems, not because I think I don't have any, rather it just re-iterates the problems I have which in my eyes is focussing on what i dont want, rather than what I want. I have never wished to come across as a perfect human being on here, and only recently have I realised that this is what people get pissed off about. I am far from perfect and I think people have misunderstood what my posts are about...not perfection, because no-one is ever perfect. I understand that, so maybe im not too delusional after all :wink: My posts aim was to promote a better, healthier life, one in which we release the extreme negative emotions that are running lives so we are then able to work towards more acceptance of ourselves and a life with more emotional freedom. Communication is obviously not my strong point right now. I realise I have a lot of work to do for myself.

I would love to respond to some of your other comments Miss Starling, no t in a way in which I promote myself as perfect but in an intellectual discussion, but I've decided to leave it there as final as I made a decision a few days ago as a result of this conversation to leave other people to do what they wish, lead by example of leading a healthier and more fulfilled life and if people wonder how Im living that and wish to ask me how, then I will by all means discuss it. Good luck all.


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2006)

We know that your not trying to start things, and only stating your opinion, but its the way you get about it, like numb said earlier. Telling a majority of people that have most likely been on meds a very long time, to completely get off of them, is ridiculous. We know your trying to promote a healthier lifestyle, but just cuz it works for you, does not mean it's going to work for everyone. Some of us need medication to have a healthier lifestyle. Everyone is different, thats what makes the world great.


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