# MDMA: friend or foe



## Guest (Oct 12, 2006)

Has anyone tried it to deal with chronic/lifelong symptoms?


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

One bad MDMA experience gave me my symptoms and has ruined the last four years of my life, but even though it has messed me up I still think it is probably the most potentially therapuetic drugs ever created.

Before it was made illegal it was used in therapy with very good results and even now the US and Israeli goverments are conducting tests for its use for PTSD and terminal cancer patients. If you want to read some amazing accounts of healing check this site out http://www.maps.org/mdma/#healing which has accounts of people being healed of severe psychological problems with only a few MDMA sessions.

But for MDMA to work and not mess you up completely you have to have proper psychotherapy with people who know what they are doing. If you just get some ecstasy and go to a rave or sit at home on your own it will unlikely do anything except make things worse as it amplifies how you are feeling and brings your barriers down, but when you have the comedown you will feel hundreds times worse, so if you are feeling bad you could feel suicidal afterwards.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

I think mdma as well as other psychedelics definatly have a place in treating mental illness. But there is such stigma and propaganda put out about these drugs that it will be awile yet before they will see clinical use. But the stigma associated with drugs such as mdma seems to be lifting.

Mdma is on my to do list because i havent tried it yet. I dont really know anyone that i want to trip with and i want to make sure that what i get is actually mdma. Not meth or some other godawful chemical sold off as E.

Magic mushrooms helped me work out some of my psychological problems. It seemed to help me make sense of alot of the crap that was going on in my life. It also made me feel much happier and calmer for a few days after i had used it. Even if i had a not so good trip.

Id really like to try mescaline (the stuff is peyote and other psychoactive cacti). It's a phenethylamine psychedelic like mdma but it's supposed to be much better. Bad trips on mescaline are almost unheard of and it's also been studied for use in mental disorders. It's been used by native americans for centuries in treating various disorders.

Mescaline is one of the oldest psychedelic's along with shrooms and it's effects are well documented.


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## jft (Jan 10, 2005)

I liked your post Pablo, Comfrotably numb i thought yours was a bit dangerous (please no offense here, none intended) to someone else reading that is not in your same position. I will never argue with one who makes a claim as yours for it seems to be your true experience. But I will dispute it for others sake for others are not you. Mescaline can knock someones ass jsut as bad as acid, it happened to me. I remember doing lsd to therapeutically figure out a life situation and wound up with a fried thought process that changed me for the bad, kind of preliminary dr/dp. So I started doing pcp because it calmed me down and put me in a better place. And then that brought me into dp/dr land for life. Same thinking of sorts (yours and mine), different drugs, but in both scenarios it was the accepted thought at the time of the people I listened to. I lost. No one knows where a drug will take you, there are so many varialbles to consider, especially predipositions. Apparantly you can get by with it, I did for four years till it put me off into la la land for life. I put all psychoactive drugs in the same category, whether they be grown in the laboratory, or in the ground, or on a tree or made in the back of a van, whether they were once legal and useful or whether they were organic. Any substance that can artificially alter your consciousness can do the same for life but not always in the fashion intended. And especially any substance bought off the street could of course contain the proverbial grab bag of hell and back (not clean). How often that happened to me.
jft.


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2006)

Thank you for your responses. I didn't know what DP was until I listed my symptoms in google about a week ago. I'm 22 and I've made it through high school and college and as far as I can tell, I've had DP since I was five. I'm just now realizing that the way I've been seeing things (or not seeing things) isn't the way things are (and certainly isn't the way they should be). Something broke the other day and I felt like I was outside of myself.

I'm a very malleable individual, so seeing a psychotherapist kind of weirds me out. I have a great deal of trouble defining where I start and someone else begins to quote radiohead. I've always had this I'm thinking. Also, budget is a concern. Is there any such thing as cheap therapy? I called a support group clearinghouse the other day and they have nothing for dysfunctional families or lifelong dissociative disorders.

Thank you all again for your responses. I can't explain how much better I've felt about things the last few days. The best I've felt in a while.

^and Pink Floyd is ringing more bells than anything right now, especially that communication track from the division bell. "he's starting to choke, it's been so long since he's spoke...but he's coming around."


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

jft said:


> I liked your post Pablo, Comfrotably numb i thought yours was a bit dangerous (please no offense here, none intended) to someone else reading that is not in your same position. I will never argue with one who makes a claim as yours for it seems to be your true experience. But I will dispute it for others sake for others are not you.


 No offense taken. Your right everyone reacts differently to different drugs. The same drug that can take one person to heaven can take another person to hell. I certainly wouldnt want anyone to get hurt because of anything i said.

I guess my brain is more friendly to psychedelics then alot of other peoples. I can honestly say that improved my outlook on life alot and im very glad that they let me see a different perspective on things.

Bad trips seem to be much less common with mescaline then with either shrooms or lsd from what ive read but they do happen. I plan on giving it a go just for the experience.

The drug that got me in the end was alcohol. It always brought out the worst in me and i basically had no control over how much i drank. It made my anxiety, brain fog and dp/dr worse but that didnt stop me from chugging gallons of the crap for years.

I tried blotting out reality with alcohol but it only made things worse. I was a total waster for about 3 years and nobody that had any goddamn sense wanted anything to do with me. If i hadnt quit id be dead or in jail by now.

How long did you take pcp for and what would you say it was like? The only dissociatives i have experience with are dxm and nitrous oxide and id imagine pcp is alot different then either.

Pcp is one nasty sounding drug but i suspect alot of the bad press is media hype. All the same there is no doubt that pcp causes alot of brain damage if used over a long period of time. Not to mention all the crap that they cut with it. God only knows what the hell is in it.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

inthegrass said:


> Thank you for your responses. I didn't know what DP was until I listed my symptoms in google about a week ago. I'm 22 and I've made it through high school and college and as far as I can tell, I've had DP since I was five. I'm just now realizing that the way I've been seeing things (or not seeing things) isn't the way things are (and certainly isn't the way they should be). Something broke the other day and I felt like I was outside of myself.


 My situation was is kind of like yours. Im 24 now and ive had dp/dr all my life. It wasent until the past year that what was wrong with me actually had a name. I always knew that something was wrong but i didnt know what.

I had a mistrust of the medical establishment in general and certainly psychiatrists so i never sought help until the begining of this year. I think i watched one flew over the cuckoo's nest one too many times lol.

Anyway im dp/dr free as of now and you wont believe the difference in how the world looks when you dont have it. I had really bad brain fog as well so that made everything worse.

As far as getting cheap treatment i dont know if any such thing exists in the USA. In canada you can get to see a psychiatrist for free although in alot of provinces there are ridiculous waiting lists.

Maybe someone that lives in the US can point you toward a free or atleast reasonably cheap clinic.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

If you want to look into therapy with psychoactives you should look as the work of a guy called Stanizlav Grof who is a professor in psychology who was the pioneer in LSD and MDMA therapy before it was banned. He has published a book called 'LSD Psychotherapy' where he talks about the experiences he had with his therapy. In one part of the book he talks about a patient who had a life history of psychological problems who when under LSD therapy had an experience where he remembered being born and getting his umbilical cord stuck around his neck, and once he had worked through the fear of this his psychological problems went away, so this guy was traumatised from the moment he was born!

After LSD was made illegal Grof invented a technique called Holotropic Breathwork which could do the same job as LSD but a lot safer, so it might be worth looking into this as there are still people who do it and it can apparently do the same job as the drugs.
http://www.breathwork.com/


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## DannyD (Sep 14, 2006)

The thing is, if you're stuck in dp, even if you take a drug like mdma or another psychedelic, you wont really get to feel anything since you're out of touch with all of your feelings. You would have to get yourself un-dp'd before you could use any drugs effectively. It sucks.


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## jft (Jan 10, 2005)

Numb, I did pcp for about a year, thinking it was safer than acid. It truly is a dissotiative, really takes you outside of your boundaries, but I also would call it a true psychadelic. We would smoke it in hash oil and the high was equivalent to acid but on a different plane.. There was always this "buzz" in the head that was most appealing. I never once saw anyone have a bad time with it, I have to honest about that. That is why I was so surprized by all the press reports over the years, e.g. Rodney King. My thinking that it was less harmful than acid stemmed from it being a pharmacuetical tranquilizer (animal?) and I thought it would not do anything to my thinking like acid did. Man was I wrong. It is so strange how many of us that "got" dp/dr speak of our dp/dr symptoms being like this drug high or that drug high. My dp/dr often feels like a pcp high. Some over at hppdonline have said the same thing, and many have attributed their dp/dr and some even their hppd on pcp. Like you said, one has no clue what the formulation is when one consumes it, Also the literature on pcp still really nails it as a very VERY danagerous drug with lots of psychotic side effects. I never experienced this, but I guess I will believe the current literature for maybe when I did it years ago it was in pure form, I do not think it is even legally manufactured anymore but I could be wrong. 
jft


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## Pancthulhu (May 27, 2006)

I would very much like to try Mushrooms or DMT one day, but I'm worried it'll bring my DP back. I've almost fully recovered from drug induced (first time cannabis use, ate far too much) DP and obviously I wouldn't try anything for a very long time, but I would kick myself if it brought my anxiety back.
I kind of think that the reason why cannabis freaked me out as much as it did though, is that as I'm young my personality isn't fully formed. Also because I philosophise a hell of a lot and don't really have any concrete views about the world there's a lot more to stir up - my friends who use drugs and don't have any problems tend not to worry about 'what all this means.'


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2006)

Pancthulhu said:


> I would very much like to try Mushrooms or DMT one day, but I'm worried it'll bring my DP back. I've almost fully recovered from drug induced (first time cannabis use, ate far too much) DP and obviously I wouldn't try anything for a very long time, but I would kick myself if it brought my anxiety back.
> I kind of think that the reason why cannabis freaked me out as much as it did though, is that as I'm young my personality isn't fully formed. Also because I philosophise a hell of a lot and don't really have any concrete views about the world there's a lot more to stir up - my friends who use drugs and don't have any problems tend not to worry about 'what all this means.'


Your a retard, your almost fully recovered yet you want to try mushrooms and dmt. Are you really that stupid? Dont do any drugs anymore trust me... I did cannabis got dp/dr after that I said to myself maybe it will work for me again.. I tried it and it worked (got me high) Did salvia 3 times and then one day I took one hit and got a major brain attack, couldn't contemplate reality/lost sense of time/saw shadow figures/felt like evil had taken over me/ Started hallucinating things like shadow people and people without heads and feet. Still haven't recovered from it, probably never will. If you have dp/dr it's a very stupid decision to do any drugs again.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

I would not recomend dmt to a first timer. Ive never tried it yet but i plan on doing it whenever i get my hands on some.

It's supposed to be the most mind blowing experience you can possibly have. Ive know a few people who have taken it and they said there is no way to describe it. It rips reality to shreds and creates a new one. You may also see the dmt elves which is a suprisingly common hallucination on this drug.

Radiohead i dont think it's very nice calling someone a retard just for wanting to try something. Human being's have been taking mind altering substances since time began it's just a part of human nature.

PERSONALLY speaking magic mushrooms are nothing like dp/dr and they are nothing like cannabis. In my own experience they are the opposite of dp/dr they expand your consciousness instead of shutting it down.

But it would be a very unwise move to try these drugs unless you are absolutly fully recovered. They could very well send you back into dp/dr land once again. You shouldnt do these drugs unless you are absolutly free of dp/dr and are perfectly calm about trying them.

You shouldnt go by my experience of these drugs because everyone reacts very differently to these substances. I react better to them then alot of other people.

If you plan on ever doing any drug such as these do your own research and make up your own mind about them. http://www.erowid.org is a good site for the effects of just about every drug on the planet and they have personal experiences as well.

The bottom line is if you dont feel completly comfortable trying them dont do them.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2006)

http://www.filecabi.net/video/joerogandmt10.html

Joe Rogan talks about doing dmt

I wouldn't try it if it causes those kinda delusions


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

I cant watch file videos because of my shitty internet connection. So i dunno what he said on it.

Dmt is a tryptamine psychedelic like psilocybin (magic mushrooms) and lsd. It's just much much more powerful. Smoking is the usual method of ingestion because it's not active orally without a MAOI.

When you smoke it you are just blasted into another world. A guy i knew who tried it said the visual's are astounding. He saw every color of the rainbow and every object seemed to change into a different color. The experience is supposed to be really undescribable.

It's common for people to panic on the stuff because it hit's so fast and so hard. Your just gone. But the upshot is that the whole thing doesent last any longer then 20 minutes. So if you are freaking out you wont have to suffer for long.

I once took about 200 or more mushrooms and i imagine that must be a taste of what dmt is like. I remembering opening the door to my room and when the door opened the wallpaper came with it. When i closed the door the wallpaper slid back into place. Also the room kept changing colors.

I was actually out at a big dance party for most of the trip and it was totally wild. Everyone on the dance floor seemed to be moving in total unison. Some people also looked something like zombie's for awile as well.

This all seemed pretty cool to me but my god was it intense. It's really useless trying to explain what that kind of trip is like to a person that's never had one. It's like trying to explain to a blind person what it's like to see.

I can easily see how a person could totally lose their head on that kind of a trip. There where moment's when i thought i was going to lose touch with reality but i kept the fear under control.

You definatly dont want to try psychedelics unless you are fully prepared for it. You could easily end up totally freaking out and end up in the ER getting shot full of ativan. It wouldnt be nice waking up from a trip strapped to a hospital bed.

Dmt is a drug that should only be taken if youve had alot of psychedelic experiences on the milder ones.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2006)

I don't believe personally that drugs like mj or xtc cause DP. The purpose of such drugs is to heighten your sense of reality, not to alter it. If you smoke and get DP, the problem is still there. I know not to smoke until I change some of the ways I do things in my life. It's not pot's fault, it's mine.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Dangerous talk this.

MDMA and Weed were the trigger for my two year long episodes of acute DR.

Stay away from it guys. When you are suffering from any psychological complaint, the last thing you want in your bloodstream are these drugs.


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## Jack30 (Apr 27, 2006)

I can't even begin to think of a single therapeutic justification for using MDMA or any other acutely mind-altering substance to treat DR/DP symptoms. I also cannot fathom how anyone who has experienced DR/DP can consider trying such substances.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

The main danger being, although you may feel euphoric when taking this drugs, and possibly be able to speak and express your feelings (distorted, I might add), a couple of days later - when your brain is empty of seretonin that you are already empty of (DP/DR/Anxety/Depression), it will be emptier still. Very, very dangerous.

I know, because even when I was well and taking MDMA, two days later I'd be sitting in the toilets at work, crying my eyes out, wanting to slit my wrists, crushed by depression and anxiety. Until your brain recovers, you have has much seretonin in your head as there is water in the sahara.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2006)

Yeah, but can the seratonin thing be offset by an antidepressant the next morning? I've been reading a complete guide book to mdma and it's safer than acid with less side effects than most antidepressants depending on what the drug is mixed with.

And what is the correlation between DP and "negative" symptoms of schizophrenia? I'm finding them too close to call.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2006)

Yeah, but can the seratonin thing be offset by an antidepressant the next morning? I've been reading a complete guide book to mdma and it's safer than acid with less side effects than most antidepressants depending on what the drug is mixed with.

And what is the correlation between DP and "negative" symptoms of schizophrenia? I'm finding them too close to call.


> Believe in what you feel, not in what you think.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

inthegrass said:


> Yeah, but can the seratonin thing be offset by an antidepressant the next morning? I've been reading a complete guide book to mdma and it's safer than acid with less side effects than most antidepressants depending on what the drug is mixed with.


 There is very little evidence to support the theory that taking a anti-depressant such as prozac or another ssri the morning after taking mdma reduces serotonin depletion. I wouldnt put much faith in it.

I wouldnt say mdma is safer then lsd at all. From a pharmacological point of view lsd is about as safe as your going to get. It has one of the safest therapeutic indexes of any drug known to man. It also does not generally cause a next day depression like mdma can do.

I still think there is little risk for a person with no mental problems in using mdma occasionally in moderate doses. But if you have preexisting depression this can be another matter altogether. It will cure your depression temporarly but when the crash happens you could end up worse off.

If your E happens to be cut with methamphetamine (like alot of E is) you can expect the crash to be much worse. Not only will your brain suffer serotonin depletion but your dopamine will be depleted as well. Which is much nastier. A comedown off cocaine is bad enough i can only imagine what a meth comedown is like.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

No. There is no evidence that taking an anti-depressant the next morning will stop the come-down. Keep in mind that anti-depressants take a while to get into your system, up to a month if you've never taken them.

Anyway, this is beside the point. Seretonin depletion will make your systems worse, whatever you decide to take.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

It is also unclear how much damage MDMA does to your serotonin system and some scientists believe that if taken in high doses on a regular basis it causes permanent downgrading of your brains ability to uptake serotonin = Big trouble if you are already in a bad mental state = dont take the risk if you have DP


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Dear Martin, 
I found this quote amazing....



> I know, because even when I was well and taking MDMA, two days later I'd be sitting in the toilets at work, crying my eyes out, wanting to slit my wrists, crushed by depression and anxiety. Until your brain recovers, you have has much seretonin in your head as there is water in the sahara.


Its scary to hear a first-hand account of how a simple pill affected you. These things probably have a long-term effect - I remember reading somewhere that a study done in Italy found DNA damage from use of cocaine or ecstasy. Whoever was asking the question, I think that seeing what you can "get away with" in this category is worse than playing with fire. And if anyone knows the risk firsthand, unlike myself, who simply knows them academically, its Martin. Listen to him.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Pancthulhu (May 27, 2006)

I heard the DNA damage thing was a scare. Long-term hallucinogen use is known to lower your serotonin levels though.


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

Ya the DNA damage thing is pretty much crap. They said the same thing about LSD back in the 60's and 70's. I think they try that tactic on whatever drug is most popular in a certain generation.

All the same cocaine is something you definatly want to avoid. It's as addictive as hell for some people and is none to easy on the brain or body. It always made me feel awful the next day after using it. I dont know why it's become so popular again it's a crap drug in my opinion.

The main danger with mdma is serotonin depletion from extended use as stated many times before.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> Ya the DNA damage thing is pretty much crap. They said the same thing about LSD back in the 60's and 70's. I think they try that tactic on whatever drug is most popular in a certain generation


I've heard that MDMA can cause DNA mutation or damage, but there is a good deal of research that suggests that it can cause long term depression, memory problems etc.

As for LSD. :shock: It's one of the most powerful synthetic chemicals ever made by man. Unlike most illegal drugs, which usually just alter the natural levels in your brain, LSD physically changes the brain structure!


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

No, unfortunately, its not a scare. I'll link to the paper. I dont honestly beleive that any of these drugs do people any good. I cant remember how LSD changes the brain, but if I recall correctly, it reverses the polarity of NMDA receptors. I know that the FDA is going to try, once again, using MDMA to help people release their emotions during therapy. I think its a risk, though. Both cocaine and ecstasy work by flooding neurons with way too much of dopamine, norepinephrine, or serotonin from the reservoir for neurotransmitters, which I beleive is in the amydala. This overstimulates them, sometimes killing them, definitely lowering the available supply of neurotransmitters. They make the brain do things against its own homeostasis, and doing anything against homeostasis will usually end in damage. There is always some good which can come from them - Cary Grant, after something like his 3rd divorce, was given therapy with LSD during the Timothy Leary days at Harvard. He said it helped him to re-prioritize his life and understand himself better. Do I think this is the safest, least damaging way to do that? No. But there are always pros with the cons.

Peace
Homeskooled

Link: http://www.mapinc.org/safe/v03/n1893/a08.html


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

Martinelv said:


> I've heard that MDMA can cause DNA mutation or damage, but there is a good deal of research that suggests that it can cause long term depression, memory problems etc.
> 
> As for LSD. :shock: It's one of the most powerful synthetic chemicals ever made by man. Unlike most illegal drugs, which usually just alter the natural levels in your brain, LSD physically changes the brain structure!


 Even if the mdma causing DNA mutation or damage is true i doubt that it's of any significance to a user. You would have to take a hell of alot of mdma to cause any real changes in your DNA. It's just gonna sound like another scare tactic that will make people ignore the real dangers of the drug.

Aspirin is suspected of causing changes to DNA but i wouldnt think twice about taking it if i had a headache.

LSD is certainly one of the most powerful synthetic chemical's made by man. Although there are alot stronger ones such as the fentanyl analoges. But that really has nothing to do with how dangerous LSD is.

It has a very wide therapeutic index and is one of the least toxic chemical's know to man taken in that context. It's basically impossible to OD on. You would blow your mind out before a overdose would occur.

LSD is a 5-ht2a partial agonist. Which means that it just boosts (for a lack of a better word) that paticular receptor. All drug's cause temporary changes in brain chemistry even non psychoactive ones but they dont actually change the brain structure itself. Well a few drug's do but that's another story.

Honestly alcohol causes much more damage to the brain then LSD does and it's brain damage has actually been proven. Unlike LSD which has not been proven to cause any brain damage at all. Although there is something going on with heavy use due to HPPD cases.

Im not advocating the use of LSD or any other drug. They can cause serious harm to some people. But i believe in presenting the fact's and letting people make up their own goddamn mind about what they want to ingest.

And thanks for the linkage homeskooled. Also why the hell did they call mdma a narcotic? Opiates are narcotic's. I guess it just makes it sound scarier.

Here's a article disputing the link between mdma and DNA damage. It actually talk's about the italian study conducted and how it can be misinterpreted. http://www.maps.org/research/mdma/litup ... 12.03.html


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## Beth (Sep 27, 2004)

> It's common for people to panic on the stuff because it hit's so fast and so hard. Your just gone. But the upshot is that the whole thing doesent last any longer then 20 minutes. So if you are freaking out you wont have to suffer for long.
> 
> I once took about 200 or more mushrooms and i imagine that must be a taste of what dmt is like. I remembering opening the door to my room and when the door opened the wallpaper came with it. When i closed the door the wallpaper slid back into place. Also the room kept changing colors.


Time perception can be affected by drugs though. A friend of mine who had taken both LSD and DMT had an experience that was hours long experientially even though it was objectively only about 20 mins. And from my own experience with DP I find that the worst states might last only seconds but are so hellish that time is completely irrelevant and you can't see the possibility of a different feeling past or future. So i don't think that the fact that a trip is short is a good reason to take the drug. From talking to people who've used DMT (and from reading 'The Spirit Molecule' by Strassman) it seems to me that it can be a very interesting and potentially valuable experience for many people. But I don't understand why anyone with DP would want to try it. Aren't we exploded enough?

(& From what i've heard DMT and mushrooms are qualitatively very different, it isn't just a matter of intensity. You're pretty much paralysed by DMT, people have trouble inhaling the whole dose because it hits so fast, and then the experience is somewhere else, it isn't grounded in this reality, whereas people on even huge doses of mushrooms can move around and talk and even make some sense. I personally would much rather take mushrooms, even if they last longer, because of the 'alienness' of DMT).

And although MDMA sounds tempting I've heard from non-DPed, non-depressive people of come-downs similar to what Martin describes. Perhaps some people can take that in their stride, and find that the suffering is worth it for the experience and insights that they have on the drug. But that probably isn't the case for most people that need to post on a mental health forum. I think there could well be a future in pharmaceutically enhanced psychotherapy, but sadly it is not a well-established field yet, and experimenting on ourselves is far more likely to worsen things than make them better. And I think that maybe it would always be a risk with our particular disorder anyway, even if helpful with depression, OCD, whatever else.

I think maybe mescaline is a bit different, especially in low doses, because it sounds to me very much like what I feel when I feel well, like the good version of DP. But for that reason too I think it could be dangerous, because it might reinforce particular patterns of perception, and I think it would be near impossible for a DPed person to take it without obsessing themself into a bad place.

I personally just feel that drugs are unnecessary to any inner exploration I want to do. DP and DR, together with studying philosophy, have made me acutely aware of how fragile my perception of reality is, and have dissolved any false notions of ego that i held. And I think the positive aspects of the awareness that drugs can give (like a sense of the perfection of existence) are transitory anyway and can only be established in day to day life by other methods anyway, such as meditation. Drugs might be a good tool for some people, but I think for people prone to depersonalization the risks far outweigh the potential gains.

And anyway just imagine getting stuck with serious HPPD on top of all this crap!

Edit:
Didn't see this before:



> I don't believe personally that drugs like mj or xtc cause DP. The purpose of such drugs is to heighten your sense of reality, not to alter it. If you smoke and get DP, the problem is still there. I know not to smoke until I change some of the ways I do things in my life. It's not pot's fault, it's mine.


I know what you mean, but at the same time the experience of taking a drug is always an interaction between whatever is already there in that person and the drug that they've introduced. You may have to be a particular kind of person to have DP 'caused' by weed, but it can still be true that if you hadn't smoked the problem might never have developed, it may have never been more than a few quirks of personality. And that's certainly the case for schizophrenia as well. Taking a drug can precipitate a mental disorder. And I'm not sure about 'heightening' a sense of reality, again I kind of know what you mean, but any change in perception is a change in perception, there is no ultimate way of seeing reality that we're all working towards. And again the way that that alteration is experienced is entirely subjective, so it can be a bad thing. I find myself more often an apologist for drugs than a critic of them, but I think it's fine to admit that there are some people who just shouldn't take the risk. Same goes for lots of good things, there are people who shouldn't drive or go bungee jumping, even though for many other people those are enriching things to be able to do.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Can't believe I missed a conversation about drugs *slaps head*

The simple truth is that all drugs are transformative substances. After you take them, you won't be the same. You will always change.

That said, you are always changing anyway and every change brings about new possibilities for growth (yes, even if you end up in the looney bin).

Furthermore, drugs won't put anything in you that isn't already there. Personally I've been down after taking MDMA as well (Balling my eyes out and feeling very depressed). Simple fact: These feelings where already there. That means they are something you already need to deal with.

That's all I have for now


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

> Time perception can be affected by drugs though. A friend of mine who had taken both LSD and DMT had an experience that was hours long experientially even though it was objectively only about 20 mins.


 Ya the time perception thing is pretty goddamn weird. I remember once when i was very high on mushroom's and i had thought that hour's had passed since the trip started. Turned out only about 30 minutes had passed.

When i took shroom's in high doses my trip sometimes felt like it had lasted day's. This is one good reason to have a watch on you if your tripping because your sense of time is just so unreliable.



> (& From what i've heard DMT and mushrooms are qualitatively very different, it isn't just a matter of intensity. You're pretty much paralysed by DMT, people have trouble inhaling the whole dose because it hits so fast, and then the experience is somewhere else, it isn't grounded in this reality, whereas people on even huge doses of mushrooms can move around and talk and even make some sense. I personally would much rather take mushrooms, even if they last longer, because of the 'alienness' of DMT).


 That's pretty much what ive heard about it to. From what ive read and heard from a few first hand account's DMT is very strange and has a alien like quality to it. It's as if reality isint there. But this is actually the very reason why i want to try DMT. I want to experience the intensity and other worldliness of the drug.

But i imagine the time i took that 200+ mushroom trip must be a little taste of what it's like. Although at the time nobody could tell i was on anything at all. I was acting perfectly normal except that i was less anxious, more sociable and kinda lovey dovey. I get almost too sociable on these drug's.

Im abit of a thrill seeker by nature so that play's a part in it too. DMT is on my list of thing's to do as well as other stuff like skydiving. Id love to try that too. I also have other thing's on my to do list but they arent fit to mention here.


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## Jack30 (Apr 27, 2006)

C-Numb: You suffer from DP/DR, and you want to take DMT?


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

Jack30 said:


> C-Numb: You suffer from DP/DR, and you want to take DMT?


 Well my dp/dr is in remission thanks to meds. Ya i would love to take DMT. I often took psychedelics when i had uncontrolled dp/dr and they had no negative effect on me whatsoever.

But that's just me. Lot's of other people have taken these drug's and had dp/dr because of their reaction to the drug.

Everyone react's differently to different drug's.


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## Beth (Sep 27, 2004)

> That's pretty much what ive heard about it to. From what ive read and heard from a few first hand account's DMT is very strange and has a alien like quality to it. It's as if reality isint there. But this is actually the very reason why i want to try DMT. I want to experience the intensity and other worldliness of the drug.
> 
> But i imagine the time i took that 200+ mushroom trip must be a little taste of what it's like. Although at the time nobody could tell i was on anything at all. I was acting perfectly normal except that i was less anxious, more sociable and kinda lovey dovey. I get almost too sociable on these drug's.
> 
> Im abit of a thrill seeker by nature so that play's a part in it too. DMT is on my list of thing's to do as well as other stuff like skydiving. Id love to try that too. I also have other thing's on my to do list but they arent fit to mention here.


:shock: You sure that taking drugs doesn't have a long-term effect on your DP? I just don't see how it can't. I do think drugs are very interesting though and if you're interested in DMT in particular then "The Spirit Molecule" by Dr. Rick Strassman has got some really interesting theories in it, although towards the end I think it shows that he's been taking a bit too much himself. That sentence has the word interesting in it far too many times.

But I would definitely recommend sky-diving. I was in the middle of a bout of DP when I did it, and couldn't really be bothered with it, but it was an amazing feeling, one of the best things I've ever done (5th best I think), and got rid of my DP for a few days. Funnily enough my friend said afterwards that just before the jump she'd felt as if everything lost its reality and she felt as if she was dreaming!


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

Generally, it's not worth the risk.

Seriously, think about HOW you're going to be using this drug. It may have some therapeutic use, it may be able to help people release trapped emotions. But this is when used in a controlled setting, with a therapist, working through your thoughts and feelings.

You won't, quite simply, be able to do this. So you'll be taking ecastasy at a rave or with friends. Will this help you work through your problems? No. Will it make you feel worse for a little while after? Definitely yeah.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Monkeydust said:


> You won't, quite simply, be able to do this. So you'll be taking ecastasy at a rave or with friends. Will this help you work through your problems? No. Will it make you feel worse for a little while after? Definitely yeah.


A positive experience is a positive experience, even if only temporary. Especially when you usually don't have many positive experiences.

But yeah I agree with the feeling down afterwards part.

Here's a spanner in the works: Who thinks you can reach some of these "altered states" without taking drugs?


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

CECIL said:


> Here's a spanner in the works: Who thinks you can reach some of these "altered states" without taking drugs?


You can reach altered states through methods like meditation, breathing techniques and trance techniques but none I have found are as quick and powerful as taking drugs like ecstasy. They are obviously much safer and if done on a regular basis will create more permanent effects and traits in your psyche than drugs will but unfortunately it is much easier to find a drug dealer than a meditation teacher.


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## Jack30 (Apr 27, 2006)

I don't know...It just blows me away that anyone who has suffered from derealization and depersonalization would intentionally tweak his or her reality.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Jack30 said:


> I don't know...It just blows me away that anyone who has suffered from derealization and depersonalization would intentionally tweak his or her reality.


Yup, I'm floored that people here are concerned about Rx drugs, but don't give a hoot about any other mind altering substance. :shock:

The formula for all of this is *PREDISPOSITION TO DP + ANY NUMBER OF STRESSORS INCLUDING MIND ALTERING SUBSTANCES = POSSIBLE RESULT OF CHRONIC DP, AND/OR OTHER MENTAL ILLNESSES.*

Yes, it can be transient for most healthy people, but this is like the cigarette paradigm ... is that the correct word? Anyway:

Predisposition + Introduction of an Enviornmental Factor = Possible Chronic Illness

Simple example:

*NO Predisposition to lung cancer + smoking = no lung cancer
Predisposition to lung cancer + smoking = MIGHT lead to lung cancer
Predisposition of some + smoking = GUARANTEED lung cancer

And yes, and this would include my mother:
A person w/1 and 1/3 lungs + a heart defect + lifelong smoking = no lung cancer. Why she took that risk I'll never know.
*

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/468728_print

*This is on Medscape. You need to register informally to access the 
full article.*

*Medication-Associated Depersonalization Symptoms: Report of 
Transient Depersonalization Symptoms Induced by Minocycline

Philip R. Cohen, MD 
South Med J 97(1):70-73, 2004. ? 2004 Lippincott Williams & 
Wilkins*

Posted 03/10/2004 
-------------------------------- 
*Medications Associated with Depersonalization Symptoms 
This table is at the end of the article, including a very detailed 
bibliography. 
(This includes both Rec drugs and Rx drugs. The article notes that 
this induced DP is reversed when meds are discontinued. Obviously this 
is not the case for everyone.) 
Best, 
D

THE WOMAN IN THIS ARTICLE GOT DP SYMPTOMS FROM AN ANTIBIOTIC!!!!!!

"Alcohol 
Antihistamines 
Antipsychotics 
Anxiolytics - (Anti-anxiety medications) 
Benzodiazepines 
Caffeine 
Carbamazepine 
Fluoxetine 
Fluphenazine 
Hallucinogens 
Indomethacin 
LSD 
Marijuana 
Meta-chlorophenylpiperazine 
Minocycline (this article) 
Nitrazepam 
Sodium pentothal* 
-----------------

Abstract 
Patients with depersonalization disorder experience episodes in which 
they have a feeling of detachment from themselves. Symptoms of 
depersonalization may occur in individuals who have other mental 
disorders, or who have various medical conditions, or who have taken 
certain medications.

A woman developed depersonalization symptoms after initiation of 
minocycline therapy. Her symptoms ceased after treatment was stopped 
and recurred when she restarted the drug. Medications that have been 
associated with causing symptoms of depersonalization are presented and 
the postulated pathogenesis by which some of these drugs induced 
depersonalization symptoms is discussed. Medication-associated 
depersonalization symptoms typically resolve once the inducing drug has 
been withdrawn.

Introduction 
Psychiatric syndromes that consist of disruptions of aspects of 
consciousness, environmental awareness, identity, memory, or motor 
behavior are classified as dissociative disorders.[1]

Depersonalization disorder is a dissociative disorder characterized by 
persistent or recurrent episodes in which the individual has a feeling 
of detachment or estrangement from one's self. Although their reality 
testing remains intact, the person may feel like they are living in a 
dream or like an automation.

Depersonalization disorder cannot be diagnosed if it is part of another psychiatric condition or if it is secondary to a medical disorder or if it is caused by a drug.[1-7]

In contrast, transient depersonalization symptoms may occur in 
association with several mental disorders, medical conditions, or 
medications.[1-42]

Minocycline is a semisynthetic tetracycline derivative that is well 
absorbed after oral administration.[43-45] Since it penetrates well 
into sebum, secondary to its high lipid solubility, it is commonly used 
in the treatment of acne vulgaris.[46] The potential profile of 
minocycline-associated adverse sequelae has been established.[43-51]

Central nervous system-related side effects that may occur in patients 
treated with this medication include headaches, light-headedness, 
pseudotumor cerebri (also referred to as benign intracranial 
hypertension, which clinically presents with blurred vision and 
headache), and vestibular disturbances (such as ataxia, vertigo, and 
dizziness).[43-46,52-54]

A young woman with minocycline-induced transient depersonalization 
symptoms is described. Her symptoms began after initiating treatment 
with minocycline, ceased after stopping the medication, and recurred 
after restarting the drug.

Other medications that have been associated with causing symptoms of depersonalization are summarized and some of the postulated mechanisms for the pathogenesis of these drug-related symptoms are discussed.

Conclusions 
Individuals may develop depersonalization symptoms after medication 
administration. Depersonalization symptoms appeared in a woman after 
starting minocycline therapy and resolved once the drug was stopped; 
subsequently, the symptoms promptly recurred when she rechallenged 
herself with minocycline and permanently resolved after the medication 
was discontinued.

The pathophysiology of minocycline-associated depersonalization 
symptoms remains to be established. However, alternative mechanisms of pathogenesis?not necessarily mutually exclusive?have been hypothesized for some of the other medications associated with inducing 
depersonalization symptoms: hypersensitivity of the serotonin system, 
drug-related metabolic encephalopathy, panic disorder-related etiology, 
and substance-induced temporal disintegration possibly secondary to 
increased levels of brain activity.

Medication-associated depersonalization symptoms typically resolve 
once the inducing drug has been withdrawn."

I honestly don't get it folks. But again, risk benefit. Why do I and others here get attacked for taking Rx drugs? What the Hell is the difference?

OK, end of rant.
Shalom all.
D
:shock: again!


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## Universal (May 30, 2005)

IF you get pure MDMA, then you are lucky these days because it's a real crazy drug world out there now and people lace the pills with speed and other stuff. So go ahead if you don't mind ingesting some amphetamine with your MDA... ohh wait what did I say?

"Ecstasy"-induced psychotic depersonalization syndrome

[Article in German]

Wodarz N, Boning J

Psychiatrische Klinik und Poliklinik, Universitat Wurzburg.

The 'designer drug' 3,4-methylenedioxy-metamphetamine (MDMA; 'Ecstasy'), which has become increasingly popular in the past few years, is supposed to induce a feeling of euphoria with amphetamine-like stimulant effects. It was for some time considered harmless, but neurotoxic effects on serotonergic neurons are now well documented. To supplement case reports on different drug-induced psychopathological and somatic complications published in recent literature, the case of a 21-year-old female patient is reported, who exhibited a *protracted psychotic depersonalization disorder* with suicidal tendency after the first intake of two tablets of "ecstasy". In the course of six months the symptoms remitted only gradually despite administration of a serotonin re-uptake inhibitor, 'flash-backs' occurring repeatedly.

http://www.stormloader.com/hppd/xtcdp.htm


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Pablo said:


> You can reach altered states through methods like meditation, breathing techniques and trance techniques but none I have found are as quick and powerful as taking drugs like ecstasy. They are obviously much safer and if done on a regular basis will create more permanent effects and traits in your psyche than drugs will but unfortunately it is much easier to find a drug dealer than a meditation teacher.


I agree 

One cool idea I've heard (but haven't been able to live up to) is to take a drug and then spend the next X years of your life obtaining and understanding that in your sober state.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

I hate to carry on about this and get on my usual soapbox, and I have never taken any rec drug so I suppose I have no clue what I'm talking about. I do however have severe chronic DP/DR that I've had for over 30 years. Never lets up and when it's bad it is sheer HELL.

OK, people complain about the drug companies, and believe me, they irritate the Hell out of me. Yes they make huge profits. It scares me that when I'm elderly I won't have access to meds I need. Say heart medication, or something that could cure a physical illness, not to mention an antidepressant. The elderly frequently become seriously clinically depressed. They have a high suicide rate.

Anyway, we crab about the drug companies making huge profits.

Well, someone just mentioned rec drug dealers. Talk about profits. And talk about the crime associated with all of that. Gangs are often associated with "drug dealing territory". They murder people over it. And as noted as well, the stuff is laced with weird stuff, watered down, etc. Meth labs explode and set apartment buildings on fire, lol.

We also know that driving under the influence of alcohol is a significant contributor to auto accidents which involve death. In the US, I believe auto accidents are the 5th leading cause of death. Have to check my stats on that. Heart disease and cancer are at the top, I think. Don't quote me. (Lung cancer and heart disease from cigarettes is pretty common).

I frequently consider it would be better to legalize and regulate rec drugs, just as has been done with alcohol and cigarettes. They shouldn't be sold to minors. There should be no advertising. And of course purity standards might save a life or two. Warnings should be given re: negative side-effects which you at least can read about for an Rx drug.

Entire countries -- Afghanastan I believe is one -- virtually their entire economy is in growing and exporting opium and/or other illegal drugs. Is that good or bad?

Also, the question is, if many Rx drugs are created from altering many of these chemical structures that make up some rec drugs, why would there be any question of the similarity of effects on the brain?

Rec drugs seem to bring relief to people here. I find relief from Rx drugs though I wish I didn't have to take them. I wish I didn't have DP/DR, anxiety, depression, yada. I also don't respond to high doses of medications. Some bad side-effects once in a blue moon. Usually NO effects -- this was from trying many in the past to find a DP treatment. I was diagnosed in 1975.

Go figure.
Damage can be done from both. But you couldn't pay me a million bucks to take any rec drug, and I hate being on my Rx meds, but without them, as I've said many times, I wouldn't be here typing this. I'd be dead, hospitalized, or living in a shelter.

Thank God I have excellent health insurance. But it still costs a lot out of pocket for good medical care of all sorts.

Cheers,
D


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## Beth (Sep 27, 2004)

> Here's a spanner in the works: Who thinks you can reach some of these "altered states" without taking drugs?


Yes, definitely. I've often read a trip report of a drug I've never tried and recognized descriptions of states of mind that I've experienced from meditation.

I'd imagine that full-on hallucinations are much rarer with meditation and of course confusion is less likely to be an aspect of a meditative experience, but I think the valuable stuff is all there, and it seems to me it's only the side-effects and distractions that you miss out on.


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## MSM (Jul 12, 2006)

Radiohead said:


> Pancthulhu said:
> 
> 
> > I would very much like to try Mushrooms or DMT one day, but I'm worried it'll bring my DP back. I've almost fully recovered from drug induced (first time cannabis use, ate far too much) DP and obviously I wouldn't try anything for a very long time, but I would kick myself if it brought my anxiety back.
> ...


Maybe your a retard? If you are experienceing "shadow" figures and hallucinating people without hands and feet, that seems like schizophrenia, NOT DP/DR, as they do not cause hallucinations. While Marijuana does NOT cause mental disorders, it can set them off and make them worse whether you knew you had one of not. And plus the salvia experience is a dissociative one. That cannot be said for all drugs tho, as many do make things feel real, like an ultra awareness, and can also make you feel engaged in the world. Not all drugs are the same. Plus, one can argue that DP/DR is purely psychosomatic.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

MSM said:


> While Marijuana does NOT cause mental disorders, it can set them off and make them worse whether you knew you had one of not. And plus the salvia experience is a dissociative one. That cannot be said for all drugs tho, as many do make things feel real, like an ultra awareness, and can also make you feel engaged in the world. Not all drugs are the same. Plus, one can argue that DP/DR is purely psychosomatic.


Firstly, I just love it when people call each other "retards". Lovely.
:roll:

At any rate, MSM, this statement makes no sense.
1. You agree that MJ doesn't cause mental disorders, and in the same sentence say "it can set them off". Well, yes, indeed. If you have a predisposition to mental problems, MJ indeed can result in said problem. We don't know yet if someone who never took the MJ or salvia in the first place would have the mental problem if they DIDN'T take the MJ.

But that is like saying, cigarettes can cause lung cancer, but cigarettes don't cause lung cancer.

2. I don't think you have studied enough psychology, neurology, or psychiatry to understand the word "psychosomatic." DP/DR are real changes in perception. They exist. Like deja-vu. Deja-vu is some "brief glitch" in brain communication. So is DP/DR. For some the glitch doesn't pass.

I suggest you read two books by V.S. Ramachandran who has found that even "psychosomatic paralysis" can actually be viewed on an fMRI. PET scans of DP brains unusual activity in certain parts of the brain.

Two excellent books by Ramachandran illustrating the fact that you are missing the complexity of this and of the brain:

"A Tour of Human Conscousness"
"Phantoms in the Brain"

:shock: and :roll:

Time for a nap, then back to HTML. OMG.

D


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## MSM (Jul 12, 2006)

No I think its like saying if I have a match and I try to light a puddle of water on fire, nothing gonna happen...but if I try to light a puddple of gasoline on fire, the whole thing will ignite. Marijuana does not create mental problems in normal people, but If you have a pre-existing mental problem it can aggrivate (sp?) it.

I think, from most of the poeple I have encountered, that If we put our minds off of it, that is if we dont think about it, it will go away. Its like when I was kid I had this fear of being abdupted by aliens. I gradually stopped thinking about it and the fear went away. I Do not wish to come off as offensive yet I realize what I have said before seems that way so I am sorry.

I for one think that mine is psychosomatic to a degree. I was completely cured about a week ago, feeling completely engaged in the world and almost euphoric because I was "back." I had reached a conclusion about reality, that brought me back, eliminating my feeling that the world is an illusion. But then, seeing as I am the questioning type, thought of another scenario, which quickly killed my new found engagment into the world, and here I am, back in this shithole of the mind.

If one fixed it before, that means it is not chronic right? like its not permanent?


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

MSM said:


> No I think its like saying if I have a match and I try to light a puddle of water on fire, nothing gonna happen...but if I try to light a puddple of gasoline on fire, the whole thing will ignite. Marijuana does not create mental problems in normal people, but If you have a pre-existing mental problem it can aggrivate (sp?) it.
> 
> I think, from most of the poeple I have encountered, that If we put our minds off of it, that is if we dont think about it, it will go away. Its like when I was kid I had this fear of being abdupted by aliens. I gradually stopped thinking about it and the fear went away. I Do not wish to come off as offensive yet I realize what I have said before seems that way so I am sorry.
> 
> ...


Dear MSM,

No need to apologize, you know your own experience, we each have an individual one. We agree re: the analogy of the match to fire or to water, yes, predispositioin + stressor (rec drug) = PROBABLY leads to DP/other mental illness that was dormant.

I don't understand how some people have episodes of DP/DR for say a day, or a week, a month, a year, and then it suddenly goes away. I don't know what that means.

I have it all the time. It has never gone away, at all, ever for about 33 years. It is at different levels. It has been less bothersome in about the last 3 years? or so? but for me, I have never "returned to reality" so I have no positive experience to base that on.

For me, I may actually have pure DP, alongside my other illnesses.

My guess, though I don't know you at all, is that DP gas gone away for you before, that is a very good sign. But I do know of people who are as old as I am 8) I'm nearly 48, who have had episodes on and off over their lifetimes.

It's usually brought on by stress. That's true of many illnesses, not just psychiatric ones.

Once someone understands the mechansim of what is going on, we'll understand it better. I'd say if your panic is under control you have a lot of hope. I think most of the young people on the board here have much hope.

My case is different as I went untreated for years and was given no emotional support at all. And again, this is from childhood where it was on and off. Sometimes I had times of beautiful/perfect reality. And I NEVER forget about them. They stand out in memory.

So, no worries, I was indeed stunned by the initial statement that this is not an illness. I don't believe it's psychosomatic, but I think in some people if they can get anxiety/obsessions under control that's great.

*My case is just different from yours. We are all very unique. And if you have reality to come back to that is a great sign.*

Best,
D


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

> I have it all the time. It has never gone away, at all, ever for about 33 years. It is at different levels. It has been less bothersome in about the last 3 years? or so? but for me, I have never "returned to reality" so I have no positive experience to base that on.


 Your dp/dr hasent gone away at all in the past 33 year's? That must be pretty hellish. I guess you could be a case of pure dp/dr not dp/dr as a symptom of another illness.

I had dp/dr my whole life and im 24 now. It came and went to various degrees but i pretty much had it all the time. The more stress i was under and the more anxiety i had the worse it got.

Once my anxiety went away with the aid of clonazepam my dp/dr went away 100%. As of now i am totally dp/dr free. The only time i get dp/dr now is during the times when i try to give up smoking.

Maybe since i was born with dp/dr and it seemed to be mainly anxiety based that's why most recreational drug's didnt affect me negatively. The only rec drug's that negatively affected my dp/dr where alcohol and cocaine and that was because they usually caused me anxiety. Either when i was on them or coming down.

Psychedelic's and weed never had a negative effect on my dp/dr at all and actually seemed to make it better. This was probley because these drug's didnt stress me out. Even when i had a couple of bad trip's on psychedelic's i found the experience to be positive in the end.


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## MSM (Jul 12, 2006)

Im sorry to hear that sir that would be hell. Just a few days ago I had a bad situation, where I was on a philosophy website, and the people were talking about the world being an illusion, saying that my universe is created by me and me alone. Basically saying everything I know is all part of mind. If that was so, I would be the only being in existence. I refuse to think that I am the only one and that my friends, family, teachers, pets are all an illusion and are not real. After all if these people really believed that, which they said they, did...why post that on a website or in a book? hypocrits! anyways...I was feaking out. It felt, exactly like a nightmare or like the one bad trip I had. Hell. Its weird tho and It brought up many questions, because that absolutely horrible feeling felt extremely familiar, maybe because of the bad trip I once had, maybe because of something else. That something else idea creeps me out.

I would very much like to continue use of psychedelics, especially now that inside I know everything is real even tho I still have that feeling. I think I could handle the trip, but I am worried about permanent damage. I know 99% of drugs, even hallucinogens despite popular beliefe, will not give you brain damage if you use them in small amounts over time, like I wish to do, but I am still worried about it somehow making what I feel permanent.

I have a theory, as psychedelics have been used in the past for things like this...

That theory is that if I use one that causes euphoria/bliss as a primary effect, and I can control the trip, that is, not freak out, that I could use that to my benefit, as that could result in a sort of realization/insight that everything is infact real. Those who know about psychedelics know what I am talking about, but I am having a hard time fully explaining what I mean.

Like i said...theory

I have heard many stories, some of which are freinds' stories, about people realizing certain things i.e. working of universe, insight into personal problems, ideas about god, that have changed their lives for the better. I know of many an atheist that have become fullhearted believers in God. So I think my theory is right on, but it seems like a great risk...like being on a balance beem...

But like I said before I am worried about permanent damage, however unlikely that could be. If ther is a possibiliy of long term/permanent damage, then I will not go back, or at least not until Ive been "normal" for quite some time. Personal health comes first.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Looks like I missed out on a lot of conversation 

I just wanted to address a few points:

Drug dealers making money and committing crime:

Increadibly simple and easy solution to this one. Make all drugs legal. Instead of spending money policing drugs spend money educating people about them and helping people get off of them. This solution is BY FAR LESS COSTLY than what is currently happening AND it promotes better health of everyone AND reduces any harm caused by drugs because people have safe environments to do them, know what they are getting (i.e. un cut) and have support networks to turn to if they develop a problem.



> I don't know...It just blows me away that anyone who has suffered from derealization and depersonalization would intentionally tweak his or her reality.


I can certainly understand that viewpoint, but I think it is still one rooted in fear. Fear of you own mind and your own power.

One of the things I learned about reality through DP is that its not the same for everyone. Moreover it can change very easily - DP itself is an altered state of reality. I was not content to live in that reality forever, so I sought ways to change it.

I learned that if each version of reality is arbitrary and if you can change between different versions of reality at will (e.g. by taking drugs) then you can also do the same thing while sober.

In fact, you can change your reality deliberately so that it affects you positively and overall creates positive change in your life.

These are things I would not understand if I had not gone through a "mental illness" and also if I had not used drugs.

I would say its a benefit, you may disagree.


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