# freedom of speech



## Guest (Feb 9, 2005)

This subject has come up for me a couple times recently, in real life. I'm interested in what other people think........
Let's start with this premise: anybody should be able to say whatever they want, whenever they want to say it. For the purpose of this experiment we will call that "Freedom of Speech".

Example: have a situation going on where I work right now. One employee is exercising their freedom of speech by continually hitting on another employee. It doesn't appear to be threatening, or even harrassing. Seems to be just a bunch of suggestive remarks, giggling, that sort of thing. Mostly it's just bothersome, but has arrived at the point to where the productivity of of the target employee is beginning to suffer. Perhaps the only particularly interesting point is that it is a woman who is doing it. We have spoken to her not once, not twice, but three times about it. She doesn't seem to be getting the hint. 
So, what to do? Should we allow this employee to continue to exercise her freedom of speech? Or should we rather allow the other employee his right to work in a professional environment, free from such stuff? 
The best part in this case is, no matter what we do as a company - we lose. If we let her continue to say whatever she wants to say whenever she wants to say it, we will almost certainly end up losing a valued, productive employee. Not to mention being sued. If we fire the woman, which appears to be the only way to shut her up - yep, she'll sue us for sexual whatever.

Example 2: I was pulled over by a nice policeman the other day. Seems I was going faster than he thought I should be going. Fact of the matter is I was, but I was still annoyed I had the bad luck to be speeding in front of a cop. Plus it was in my '87 LandCruiser. The way I see it, if you can get a heap like that up over the speed limit, even in a frickin school zone, you should get a trophy, not a ticket. So, I had a decision to make: should I exercise that 'ol Freedom of Speech and tell this frustrated cowboy what I think of him and his cute little badge? Um....turns out I was not in the best of moods and did just that. Sure, I got to get out of my car and be patted down, delayed much longer than I would have otherwise, and received a very expensive citation which I might have been able to avoid had I just smiled nice and swallowed my pride, but nooooooooo. I'm an American. Have to say what I think when I think it.

Example 3: let's say I'm a member of DPSelfHelp, and there's this one member that for some reason really ticks me off. Say it's Dreamer (only because she is my buddy and knows I am only using her as an example). Say Dreamer posts something, and I respond with something like - gee D, that sure was stupid. 
I can do that, right? Freedom of Speech allows for it. I can say whatever I want to say whenever I want to say it. She posts something I think is stupid, I have the right to tell her it's stupid. 
Maybe somebody else doesn't like what I said that. They put up a response telling me I'm a dumbass. Which is fine.....Freedom of Speech and all that. Pretty soon the site becomes the best place on the Net to yell at other people, call them names, etc. 
Freedom of Speech is great.

Example 4: This one was in the news here locally a couple of months ago...........say you decide you want to make life uncomfortable for someone. You make up a bunch of lies, turn out a stack of flyers and hand them out on the street corner. The target was a Cub Scout troop leader. Seems his ex-girlfriend was a little p.o.'ed and decided it might be fun to put out information saying he was a child molester. She ended up being arrested, recanting everything..........but the damage was done. People will never quite trust this man again. Freedom of Speech? Sure. There's nothing in those three words that require truth.

Discussion item: Freedom of Speech does NOT allow anyone to say whatever they want whenever they want to say it. In fact, Freedom of Speech comes with substantial limitations. And those limitations are completely arbitrary, and changeable. What's more, Freedom of Speech in not a God given right. It is something that is earned, and comes with sometimes substantial responsibility.

I get to fire a person at work, because their right to "Freedom of Speech" conflicts with someone else's rights.  The result? Lost productivity and who knows how much in litigation costs. 
I am the proud owner of a $380 (U.S.) traffic ticket. One which I might have avoided had I stopped and considered the responsibility inherent in freedom of speech. 
I call Dreamer stupid. The result........the responsibility? I have made her feel bad and made myself look like the dumbass somebody else would probably call me.

Where I come from, Freedom of Speech is protected by the Constitution. Lots and lots of people have died protecting that right. However, "Freedom of Speech" very clearly does not mean anybody has the right to say whatever they want to say whenever they want to say it.

Freedom of Speech exists as a right, only if you are willing - and able to accept the inherent responsibilities. Which you cannot always do, because you do not have the ability to accept the consequences to other people of what you may say. 
My thoughts? So long as what you say does not endanger, harm, or otherwise bother someone else - you are free to say it. Beyond that, and things get very fuzzy very fast, both morally and legally. And, in an exercise of my freedom of speech - I believe anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves, and has not spent near enough time in the real world.

Sorry this got so long, and it may be of interest only to me. I'm frustrated with the phrase "Freedom of Speech" these days though. 
I guess in the context of DPSelfHelp, do you think each of us as members should be able to say whatever we want to say? Regardless of the impact on other members? 
(psst - the correct answer is "no". This is a privately owned site, and nobody has any right beyond that conferred by the owner)


----------



## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

First, I think its time you realized youre on the internet and you are just a member here like everbody else. Stop using the fact that this is a privately owned website as some sort of threat to people that have different beliefs than yours. If you want a website that only has content that you agree with, then why dont you start your own. What one person agrees with, may infuritate another. Its just the way it is.


----------



## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

I think people use the freedom of speech card way too often to get away with stuff.

Your example with the sexual poacher: give her a warning. if she keeps it up, fire her ass. this is one of the biggest double standards in sexual politics. if a woman is the harasser, it is apparently funny. if a man does it, it is predatory. too many get away with stuff like this, saying sex is not consentual when it most definitely was.

With the cop: he had no right patting you down. you can say whatever you want as long as it isn't threatening. call him a bitch, an asshole, a mother f*cker. as long as you say it calmly, you are obedient, and you make it clear you will not attack him. If you start yelling, you could receive disorderly coduct or obstruction of justice or something. I usually stick up for the guys in blue, some of them need power-checks now and then. He shouldn't have gotten you out of the car unless you appeared inebriated or on drugs or were suspicious of something. Next time you get a ticket, just politely say, "here is my license, f*ckface."

from example 4: if you present anything to the public that is untrue and can be damaging to one's character and pass it off as truth, you have gone too far, and that is exactly how the law sees it- through slander, libel, or defamation of character. That is wrong with the child molester thing and that woman could be prosecuted. If people can actually get the impression that this guy may actually be a child molester, that is defamation of character and she could be prosecuted. However, if she presented flyers saying the guy was really a 98 year old woman, than she can get away with it because the guy is clearly not a 98 year old woman so it just comes off as ridiculous. That is what I learned from my business law class.

As far as that Colorado professor who had been praising the 9/11 attacks or whatever, he should definitely get fired, for the sole reason that he is a liabililty to the University of Colorado, not necessarily because the remarks are offensive to 99.9999% of Americans. I don't care if he works for the government and is using free speech, any employee who threatens the progress and success of their company should be able to be fired.


----------



## Guest (Feb 10, 2005)

Only two reponses? Well, it was late last night when I put this up and probably wasn't making much sense anyway.

Gimpy - we have given the woman two warnings. We all know it doesn't matter though. We give her a pink slip - we get sued. Assuming we have all our ducks in a row, proper documentation, etc., it's possible we could win. Except not really, as there will be substantial cost for legal fees regardless.

Regarding Mr. Policeman, I think I forgot to mention the part about me getting out of my vehicle without him asking. Guess I startled him or something. Especially since I'm about twice his size. My bad......

About the disgruntled ex-girlfriend, sure, she can be prosecuted. But do you really think anybody is ever going to completely trust that poor guy again?

About the Colorado dickhead (<~~~~freedom of speech).........slimy, not to mention really quite stupid attempt at attention made by a highly neurotic, likely short man who was breast fed to a late age. My guess is he will discover the "responsibility" aspect of freedom of speech fairly soon. You gotta figure he's managed to piss off a bunch of already very angry people. Personally, I can't take a person like that very seriously, except to feel sorry for him. On the other hand, and as you say, he is now a liability to that school. Donations will be affected, students may decide to go elsewhere, etc. Can they fire him for being a dickhead? Hard to say, but you can bet they are looking for a way.


----------



## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Hey Joe - I like it ! Thanks for your espousal of website-democracy. I never thought I'd see the day. Thusly:

I LOVE BENZO'S. BENZO'S ARE GOOD. NURSE, PLEASE INJECT 100MG OF KLONOPIN DIRECTLY INTO MY EYEBALL.


----------



## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Haha Martin! :lol: But into the eyeball - yikes I wouldn't want that. However, I just LOVE benzodiazepines I must admit, and I really mean it. I have used quite many rec drugs, and been injected Oxanest (oxycodone) after the surgery of my retina BUT none of those drugs can be compared to the buzz of temazepam. I've taken only one pill of it in my life and I just loved the cotton cloud feeling it gave me. Indeed I wish one could buy benzodiazepines in Finland's liquor stores, I'd use them instead of booze on Friday evenings!

This is the reason why I rejected the prescription of benzo (if I remember right, it was diazepam), when my psychiatrist asked me if I needed it - I told him I'd just use the drug for recreational purposes. You can guess, now it is about three years since that generous offer, and I regret refusing to take the prescription. I wish I could use temazepam instead of alcohol when partying, I really love the euphoria... And every word I've typed here is true.

I guess there is a reason why you can't buy benzodiazepines as over-the-counter drugs, cuz some people may become addicted to the stuff... Sigh for that, as I'd be surely in heaven during Friday evenings, if there weren't those folks who'd get hooked. *not fair*

OK, this was my sincere share of Freedom of Speech in this board.


----------



## gimpy34 (Aug 10, 2004)

Give me an example of what that woman at work has said and I could give you a better reply.

From what it sounds like the woman is just annoying. Get people in your workplace to start doing something really annoying to her until she gets the point, like farting in her face every time they feel the need. 
If it is suggestive enough, get the guy to carry around a tape recorder.


----------

