# Major inconsistancy in Buddhism?



## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

As far as my understanding goes Buddhists dont believe in a personal self or a soul rather a persons sense of self is created moment by moment by a huge range of inputs and influences so at the heart of a person there is "no self", but then they say that a person can be reincarnated - but how can a no self be reincarnated? - how can a no self bring karma into their new life? I t doesn't make sense!

I dont know why it has taken me this long to see this major inconsistancy and I cant find any adequate answer to this contradiction. It makes me wonder how much modern Buddhists really understand of the original teachings because it has bound to be corrupted over the years like all the other religions which is why Buddhists are all spit off into different groups just like the church, I always thought Buddhism was different but now im starting to wonder if it is just the same as all the other corrupted religions. Gurdjiefff even says that most Buddhists dont even understand what Buddha meant by suffering and what he really meant was the suffering caused by the friction and irritations other people cause you. I wonder what real knowledge remains in the world, perhaps all the genuine spiritual knowledge is either lost or remains in secret because I dont see much evidence of it about and I have been looking for a long time.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

....is it necessary to believe in reincarnation to be Buddhist?


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

I wonder if Buddhism contradicts itself not because it is not viewed in the light of non-duality but because those words which were recorded as the Buddha's were meant for the people present at the time and not for general consumption. What I mean is that the Buddha was likely to tell one person one thing and another person something completely contradictory depending on their level of understanding and what would individually help them advance, so if a record of one persons advice was kept future generations would say "this is the truth spoken by the Buddha" whereas in reality it was just one persons truth and may not even apply to you - so maybe all the Buddhist sciptures are other peoples advice, anyway..



> There is not a self as in a perminant unchanging entity that "reincarnates but that doesnt mean that nothing incarnates,we incarnate through karma,which we create through the beleif in a self that apears to be unchanging and seperate.
> The dalai lama explains...You have two candles,you light the second candle from the flame of the first candle.Is the flame from the second candle the same as the flame of the first candle or differant to it? its both untill duality has been transcended


Perhaps I am looking at this too logically but if something incarnates which can remember the previous incarnations then what is it that remembers if not some sort of self? - do you mean that what we see as ourselves is just karma, because I suppose that makes sense, but still there has to be something to remember your particular karma and not anybody elses, so your particualr awareness is only aware of your particualr karma, so your awareness is individual to your self. Im sure at one point I had most of these questions figured out, I think I came to the conclusion that the Buddha did actually belive in a self and a no self and they were both sides of the same coin... or something along those lines.



> I doubt if Gerdjiefff even walked that path as far as he needed to at least to realise and see those truuths.Not that I know anything of Gerdjiefff but I do wonder of his motive to make such aquisations.
> Getting on each others nerves is only like 5 percent of the whole of suffering.


It is hard to determine the truth when it comes to Gurdjieff because he usually masked his true meanings on purpose but apparently when he was travelling the world searching for knowledge he spent a long time in Tibet and spent a great deal of time in the hidden secretive monasteries before the Chinese destroyed them and had access to much of the high level teachings, some even say he was made a high ranking Lama, but its all just rumours at the end of the day. I think the point he was trying to make was that Buddhists make a mistake when the isolate themselves in caves and monestaries because the real friction and suffering is around people in the world, not dissociating in your own head on your own.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Getting on each others nerves shouldn't be underestimated. Say for instance that everyone had control over their senses and were totally unfettered....the world would be a different place...I'm sure of it. A lot of harm is done due to people not being able to sit in the same room as others. All the homeless, undesirables, alcohol-addicted and smelly people in society, all the big-headed, arrogant, foolish, dumb, or people of a different life-style, class, path, are separated because people get on one anothers nerves....isn't this the truth? Why don't we have centres that mix Buddhists and Christians or Muslims and Christians....Mormons and Evangelists? Peoples' egos are in an almost perpetual state of irritation at those people who don't embody the same life-style or belief system...

Sorry! Isn't living in the world the best test for enlightenment?

I mean I'm literally avoiding going downstairs to make a cup of tea cos my boyfriend friend is round and he doesn't like me for being a reflective person...apparently "there are more evolved forms of communication". I can't sit or speak with him cos he doesn't like the way I talk or what I like to speak about. I also get somewhat irritated by the random yoga positions etc. That's another human soul to tick off of the list of potential friends.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Rozanne said:


> I mean I'm literally avoiding going downstairs to make a cup of tea cos my boyfriend friend is round and he doesn't like me for being a reflective person...apparently "there are more evolved forms of communication". I can't sit or speak with him cos he doesn't like the way I talk or what I like to speak about. I also get somewhat irritated by the random yoga positions etc. That's another human soul to tick off of the list of potential friends.


What an ass. What are these more evolved forms of communication? Tell him if he's in your house to shut the fuck up or leave


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2008)

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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

I have been thinking about the concept of "no self" and I am starting to think how good it would be to realise that I didn't have a self in a non dp healthy way because then I wouldn't have anything to defend, so all that defensiveness, anger, irritation, neurosis all would be completely pointless if there was nothing for me to defend - I would just be pure awareness with no identifications with anything, so no stress id just going with the flow of life with no blocks in my energy body - I wonder if that is really possible?


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2008)

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## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

All religions are death cults. Reincarnation like other fancy terms is just trying to explain something in a dumbed down not necessarily right kind of way. Its trying to say you cant die even though you do. Another example is chakras they make them sound all mystical when really they are just ganglia aka nerve centers in the spine. Buddhism is constant contradiction. Buddhism is the ultimate riddle it is the riddle of existence and thats why i love it. Buddhism has newer types depending on the culture its in. Theravada is the original Indian type Buddhism based on freeing the self. Mahayana is a newer Chinese type Buddhism based on freeing others. Zen is a Japanese type Buddhism based on meditation without any theory. Varjayana is a Tibetan type Buddhism which is merged with the native shamanistic Bon religion. There is also Pure Land which some dont even count as Buddhism, I know I dont, its never talked about much. It was designed to combat Christianity cause Christians would show up and say all you have to do is believe Jesus is god and you go to Heaven instead of meditating your whole life for possibly nothing. Pure Land says there are a bunch of Buddhas and they are seen as gods and all you have to do is pray to a certain one and you go to their Heaven which are called Pure Lands.


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## Mushishi (May 31, 2010)

sunyata samsara said:


> All religions are death cults. Reincarnation like other fancy terms is just trying to explain something in a dumbed down not necessarily right kind of way. Its trying to say you cant die even though you do. Another example is chakras they make them sound all mystical when really they are just ganglia aka nerve centers in the spine. Buddhism is constant contradiction. Buddhism is the ultimate riddle it is the riddle of existence and thats why i love it. Buddhism has newer types depending on the culture its in. Theravada is the original Indian type Buddhism based on freeing the self. Mahayana is a newer Chinese type Buddhism based on freeing others. Zen is a Japanese type Buddhism based on meditation without any theory. Varjayana is a Tibetan type Buddhism which is merged with the native shamanistic Bon religion. There is also Pure Land which some dont even count as Buddhism, I know I dont, its never talked about much. It was designed to combat Christianity cause Christians would show up and say all you have to do is believe Jesus is god and you go to Heaven instead of meditating your whole life for possibly nothing. Pure Land says there are a bunch of Buddhas and they are seen as gods and all you have to do is pray to a certain one and you go to their Heaven which are called Pure Lands.


Chakras are "energy centers". Energies of what? Consciousness.









Reincarnation isn't saying that you come back alive even though you die. It's the _perception_ that "we" are life itself, manifesting in infinite forms corresponding to our current evolution of consciousness. And that when you "die" you continuously manifest back here on earth, until perhaps it's "time" to move on to another place/dimension/etc. Reincarnation is now "possible" due to more _helpful_ sciences like quantum mechanics, etc. But let's just not negatively attach words like "reincarnation" into our dome pieces.

So... I conclude that these mystical "stuff" that exist in our minds today, depending on your psychological filterings, conditionings, emotional attachments and inner core belief structures, with reality-decoding introspection process of rotating nonsense... Accordingly to full-light-spectrum-capacities................ Then perhaps maybe if things were fine-tuned, you'de "see" things differently. In reality... Generally. And then maybe you'de see that a chakra is much more than just ganglia.

Fuck DP, fuck spirituality, fuck any religious upholsterings. Fuck saying, "I'm a buddhist" taoist, etc.

Ever hear the saying "A true taoist does not consider him so, nor true at that." No? Well that's cuz I JUST made it up!

I'M SO FUCKING HIGH

Oh, and to answer the original question by the original poster:



> As far as my understanding goes Buddhists dont believe in a personal self or a soul rather a persons sense of self is created moment by moment by a huge range of inputs and influences so at the heart of a person there is "no self", but then they say that a person can be reincarnated - but how can a no self be reincarnated? - how can a no self bring karma into their new life? I t doesn't make sense!


It is believed in the Self, and that is all. No personal self, but at the same time, we are THE Self. And that's all we are. The whole, "We Are One". There's some epic quote by Einstein and Bill Hicks if you wana look it up.

So yeah, basically, the whole soul and personal self thing is ultimately that lame word meditation people like to say. "Ego". And Ego is an illusion. There is no real source to it. There is only the Self. And the Self is infinite. The Self is always manifesting, and you are one of those manifestations (reincarnations) of Self, experiencing yourself. Experiencing "me". I am you and you are me, etc.

Reality is basically a trip.

Think about it _*real*_ hard.


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## babybowrain (Aug 24, 2010)

Is Gurdjiefff the russian man from the 19th/20th century? I am pretty sure I read he ripped off many of his students!


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Mushishi said:


> Chakras are "energy centers". Energies of what? Consciousness.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hehe another old post, shows how long I have been on this bloody board. In regards to the question I still think this is a contradiction in buddhism, I have been studying it for many years and in many way I think it is the best of all the religions yet i'm not even sure it is a religion, but yet when it comes to reincarnation i;'m not sure it makes sense, how can a no self reincarnate? what keeps the different strands of karma together through reincarnation into another body without a soul? how does the theory account for the rise in population?. But yeah nothing really matters so there is no point being stressed, even our sun will one day die so there is no point being stressed. the masters all followed their own path, they didn't follow religions or books to find their way they relied on their own judgement, fuck all the people who want to keep you down.

Here is an inspirational Pakistani woman putting an old Mullah in his place, all the old regressive dinosaurs and philosophies have had their day and will be erased from the earth


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

babybowrain said:


> Is Gurdjiefff the russian man from the 19th/20th century? I am pretty sure I read he ripped off many of his students!


Gurdjieff is certainly a controversial person, it can take an entire lifetime to figure him out and what he actually contributed to mankind may not be that far off many of the Saints in my view, although he invented nothing he brought back to life many teachings and information which may well have been forever without him, yet many believe him to be nothing but a con man and alcoholic. He wrote a book called "Beelzebub's tales to his grandson" and if you can understand this book I will come and worship whoever does as I have been trying to understand it for many years.


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## babybowrain (Aug 24, 2010)

Perhaps a book on russian mythology will help you understand him? There is a book called "russian magic" by cherry gilchrist. http://www.amazon.com/Russian-Magic-Traditions-Enchanted-Landscape/dp/0835608743


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

Pablo said:


> As far as my understanding goes Buddhists dont believe in a personal self or a soul rather a persons sense of self is created moment by moment by a huge range of inputs and influences so at the heart of a person there is "no self", but then they say that a person can be reincarnated - but how can a no self be reincarnated? - how can a no self bring karma into their new life? I t doesn't make sense!
> 
> I dont know why it has taken me this long to see this major inconsistancy and I cant find any adequate answer to this contradiction. It makes me wonder how much modern Buddhists really understand of the original teachings because it has bound to be corrupted over the years like all the other religions which is why Buddhists are all spit off into different groups just like the church, I always thought Buddhism was different but now im starting to wonder if it is just the same as all the other corrupted religions. Gurdjiefff even says that most Buddhists dont even understand what Buddha meant by suffering and what he really meant was the suffering caused by the friction and irritations other people cause you. I wonder what real knowledge remains in the world, perhaps all the genuine spiritual knowledge is either lost or remains in secret because I dont see much evidence of it about and I have been looking for a long time.


People love mystery - it seems to solve an inner need. At the same time there is a war going on inside to solve mysteries because we want certainty/clarity/solidity.

When we find problems with our current philosophy/religion, we may be attracted to look for something totally different. In the 1960's when some churches changed their services from Latin to English (or local language) some 'fell away' because they thought the words lacked meaning - no more mystery. Let alone the eventual affect of the Inquisitions.

It isn't just religious philosophy. TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) is wonderful but there are oddities such as Zi He Che (Dried Human Placenta http://www.tcmtreatment.com/herbs/0-ziheche.htm) or Wu Ling Zhi (Flying Squirrel Feces http://alternativehealing.org/wu_ling_zhi.htm) that probably should have alternatives. Certainly Arsenic [Xiong Huang, Ci Huang] should not be used.

Millions of Westerners use acupuncture and TCM herbal preparations with great improvement while the Chinese government wants to 'Westernize' and relegate TCM as 'non-scientific folk medicine'. So which is true?

Throughout history, religious dogma and politics can take what is useful and 'corrupt' it to lesser value/help. Are eastern religions and philosophies immune from this effect? Or are they better just because they are different than western failings? (the new kid in town)


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## Mushishi (May 31, 2010)

Pablo said:


> Hehe another old post, shows how long I have been on this bloody board. In regards to the question I still think this is a contradiction in buddhism, I have been studying it for many years and in many way I think it is the best of all the religions yet i'm not even sure it is a religion, but yet when it comes to reincarnation i;'m not sure it makes sense, how can a no self reincarnate? what keeps the different strands of karma together through reincarnation into another body without a soul? how does the theory account for the rise in population?. But yeah nothing really matters so there is no point being stressed, even our sun will one day die so there is no point being stressed. the masters all followed their own path, they didn't follow religions or books to find their way they relied on their own judgement, fuck all the people who want to keep you down.
> 
> Here is an inspirational Pakistani woman putting an old Mullah in his place, all the old regressive dinosaurs and philosophies have had their day and will be erased from the earth


I don't care how old it is. I still wanted to say shit. You still miss the entire point of my last post, too. But it's chill. Seriously. Lol.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Mushishi said:


> I don't care how old it is. I still wanted to say shit. You still miss the entire point of my last post, too. But it's chill. Seriously. Lol.


Yeah sorry I was posting at about 2 in the morning after I'd been out drinking, probably didn't make much sense


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2011)

Pablo said:


> As far as my understanding goes Buddhists dont believe in a personal self or a soul rather a persons sense of self is created moment by moment by a huge range of inputs and influences so at the heart of a person there is "no self", but then they say that a person can be reincarnated - but how can a no self be reincarnated? - how can a no self bring karma into their new life? I t doesn't make sense!
> 
> I dont know why it has taken me this long to see this major inconsistancy and I cant find any adequate answer to this contradiction. It makes me wonder how much modern Buddhists really understand of the original teachings because it has bound to be corrupted over the years like all the other religions which is why Buddhists are all spit off into different groups just like the church, I always thought Buddhism was different but now im starting to wonder if it is just the same as all the other corrupted religions. Gurdjiefff even says that most Buddhists dont even understand what Buddha meant by suffering and what he really meant was the suffering caused by the friction and irritations other people cause you. I wonder what real knowledge remains in the world, perhaps all the genuine spiritual knowledge is either lost or remains in secret because I dont see much evidence of it about and I have been looking for a long time.


Don't be disheartened brother.

Words are very limited and enlightenment is a living experience, not a concept. In fact, many gurus say that words must be done away with completely in order to find clarity and enlightenment; hence "gibberish meditations".
It's not that Buddha didn't believe in a soul, but he felt it unhelpful to talk of these things.
It's understandable. Things are as they are. Philosophising gets you no-where.
It's a process of stripping and quieting the concious mind to reach a point where you are simply quiet and living in the awareness of now, which is all there really is.

People missunderstand negation concepts of buddhism.
When you are empty of mental garbage you are filled with real life.
Too be empty is to be totally engaged with life in a way most people never are.
Of course, the bonus of surrendering ego is great tranquility, peace and presence of mind.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

nvm


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