# DP's a MIRACLE.



## greatnavad

HI,
Here's my lil story and my symptoms. Please help me out by telling me if i belong to this place.

its like there is NO SELF...NOTHIGN MINE....its like all sense of self and what "YOU" believed in doesnt exist anymore...THERE IS NO ME/YOU/SELF...u dont feel grounded..u dont feel one with body..u dont think the guy sleeping below ur eyes is YOU....BUT then what is ME?/??NOTHING...NOTHING???then what is what?who is what?blahblah..Panic panic panic....DEAD?????

I always wondered what would happen to us after we die...of course our bodies would rot...BUT what ABOUT US??//I FOUND ANSWER TO THAT PUZZLE long back in DP...DP is DEATH OF MIND>... the ultimate answers that sages, saints and GODMEN have spent years trying to figure out..I HAVE FOUND it...

DEATH to us with DP comes within secdonds. ..any moment we want it...and amazingingly ...we(THAT FLEETING CONGREGATION OF SENSES CALLED SELF) are born again.......

just when i thought i had mostly recovered from DP. i Had enormous confidence in myself, i had figured i had this stuff under control AND................BAMMMMMMMMM.......DP fights back and it hits you in the face and humbles u down.
i felt sick.. there are no words to describe it.. a moment back u felt u were worth somethign.. U WERE SOMEHTING>. u had self.. u had frens ...u had LIFE....then when u started thinking about it...
GROUND ZERO.

Do you folks think the symptoms indicate classic DP?
Please help me if i belong here.


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## Guest

Sounds like a loss of ego/identity anymore symptoms ?


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## ashley50

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## eclecticsheep

is identity loss different to dp???


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## The Wraith

Sometimes I feel like more of a human than anyone else seems to be feeling this way, (the dp). Since it started ruining my friendships and my life pretty much, in retrospect I really have learned to resent and have a detest for even associating with them, or living the way I did because it all seems like pointless BS. I have always been a very meloncholy vapid person, but I think that depending on the level of intelligence of the person who has dr they can either turn into a genius or a lunatic. Maybe a bit of both. Either way , it has given me a gift, but I am not sure if I want it anymore. Sometimes I'd rather just be oblivious and ignorant again.

To me, it seems like you are having an identity crisis, possibly clinical depression. I don't know much about dp still, so I can't say whether I think you might have it or not. Good luck getting better though!


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## Guest

eclecticsheep said:


> is identity loss different to dp???


If you *feel* like you lost your identity or ego but you can remember who you were its related to dp, on the other hand if you actually lost your identity or ego and cant even remember who you were or are its probably something different.


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## ashley50

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## eclecticsheep

j_utah said:


> eclecticsheep said:
> 
> 
> 
> is identity loss different to dp???
> 
> 
> 
> If you *feel* like you lost your identity or ego but you can remember who you were its related to dp, on the other hand if you actually lost your identity or ego and cant even remember who you were or are its probably something different.
Click to expand...

how do you mean to remember who u were

i don't feel like myself at all I know who I used to be but I don't remember . because if i could remember then i would stop being dped if that makes any sense


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## eclecticsheep

I thought i was too sane and everyone around me was brainwashed which led to *conspiracy fears*, I thought that if i told a psyciatrist or someone along those lines theyed do somthing to me because* i "knew"too much *like inject me with an insanity solution, then i began thinking maby thats why insane people are insane, ya i know, this is total craziness and im scared youre gonna think im schizophrenic cause even i began fearing that too but im not and in comparison to this dp i almost wish i was instead. of course i dont have those thoughts now but they do show something about this condition..... any thoughts?[/quote]

I have some thoughts. 
the things in bold idanticate something other than dp, it could be even ocd or schizoid depression but I am not sure at all.
the good think is that if are afraid that you are gonna go crazy u are not 
crazy
and that's clinically prooven


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## Guest

eclecticsheep said:


> j_utah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eclecticsheep said:
> 
> 
> 
> is identity loss different to dp???
> 
> 
> 
> If you *feel* like you lost your identity or ego but you can remember who you were its related to dp, on the other hand if you actually lost your identity or ego and cant even remember who you were or are its probably something different.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> how do you mean to remember who u were
> 
> i don't feel like myself at all I know who I used to be but I don't remember . because if i could remember then i would stop being dped if that makes any sense
Click to expand...

When you lose your identity or ego its gone and you have no memory or recollection of who you were at all. Usually you go on to make up a new identity. Your ego or identity may be altered negatively but its not gone.


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## Guest

eclecticsheep said:


> I thought i was too sane and everyone around me was brainwashed which led to *conspiracy fears*, I thought that if i told a psyciatrist or someone along those lines theyed do somthing to me because* i "knew"too much *like inject me with an insanity solution, then i began thinking maby thats why insane people are insane, ya i know, this is total craziness and im scared youre gonna think im schizophrenic cause even i began fearing that too but im not and in comparison to this dp i almost wish i was instead. of course i dont have those thoughts now but they do show something about this condition..... any thoughts?


I have some thoughts. 
the things in bold idanticate something other than dp, it could be even ocd or schizoid depression but I am not sure at all.
the good think is that if are afraid that you are gonna go crazy u are not 
crazy
and that's clinically prooven[/quote]
Yea thats not an unreasonable idea, its just you were scared because you were changing and you were thinking of things to come up with an answer as to what was happening at the time. I have come to think that anti-psychotics actually do more harm than good myself.


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## Guest

eclecticsheep said:


> i don't feel like myself at all I know who I used to be but I don't remember . because if i could remember then i would stop being dped if that makes any sense


This is exactly how it was for me. I had a 'sense' of my old self but it was like a memory I couldn't quite grasp. I remember saying things like "I can't remember myself." "There is something important I need to remember." It felt like a bizarre form of amnesia. I passed all the 'reality testing.' I mean I knew who I was and what year it was and all that stuff. It was my 'sense of myself' that I couldn't remember and it pulled on me to try to remember.

I also had no more sense of how to relate to the world. I would watch soap operas to try to get some sense of how to behave so no one would see that I really 'wasn't there,' if you know what I mean.

All this was 30 years ago. There was no internet and, lord knows, no one that understood even remotely what was happening. I just faked my way through it. I had a little girl to take care of. No choice. It wasn't safe to let any of it show. 'Safety,' in fact, and lack of same was a key feature in this whole business. I no longer felt 'safe' anywhere, whereas, before, I felt 'at home' just about anywhere.


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## eclecticsheep

j_utah said:


> eclecticsheep said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> j_utah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eclecticsheep said:
> 
> 
> 
> is identity loss different to dp???
> 
> 
> 
> If you *feel* like you lost your identity or ego but you can remember who you were its related to dp, on the other hand if you actually lost your identity or ego and cant even remember who you were or are its probably something different.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> how do you mean to remember who u were
> 
> i don't feel like myself at all I know who I used to be but I don't remember . because if i could remember then i would stop being dped if that makes any sense
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When you lose your identity or ego its gone and you have no memory or recollection of who you were at all. Usually you go on to make up a new identity. Your ego or identity may be altered negatively but its not gone.
Click to expand...

but if u loose ur identiy at 20 for example how could u make a new one 
. i uderstand how a baby can create an aidentity but not a grown up
dp sucks. i don't feel i can't create any identity at the moment


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## Guest

eclecticsheep said:


> j_utah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eclecticsheep said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> j_utah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eclecticsheep said:
> 
> 
> 
> is identity loss different to dp???
> 
> 
> 
> If you *feel* like you lost your identity or ego but you can remember who you were its related to dp, on the other hand if you actually lost your identity or ego and cant even remember who you were or are its probably something different.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> how do you mean to remember who u were
> 
> i don't feel like myself at all I know who I used to be but I don't remember . because if i could remember then i would stop being dped if that makes any sense
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When you lose your identity or ego its gone and you have no memory or recollection of who you were at all. Usually you go on to make up a new identity. Your ego or identity may be altered negatively but its not gone.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> but if u loose ur identiy at 20 for example how could u make a new one
> . i uderstand how a baby can create an aidentity but not a grown up
> dp sucks. i don't feel i can't create any identity at the moment
Click to expand...

yea exactly thats why you have dp/dr not a dissociative fugue or DID. Its when everything you thought about your self or your prospects of becoming gets erased completely. Its typically shortlived like for a few minutes a person wont be able to recall his or her's personal information. who they were, when and where they were born etc then after the minutes go by it suddenly comes back.


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## greatnavad

HI,

Iam greatnavad, the chap who posted this ...
welll ........i dont have any kind of amnesia, i more or less remember everything about who i am , was or had been.....

THERE IS NO MEMORY LOSS AT ALL.....

BUT THE POINT is, I DONT FEEL CONNECTED with all of those memories...its somehow...different.
MOST of the times iam just an ordinary chap who is into BODYBUILDING and makes out a living by Programming.(Yup , you heard it right, its an ecclectic mix i know ). BUT DP IS LIKE ......well i have already described it. I DON T HAVE any PHYSICAL Symptoms.

Am already a Member of this MSN's DP group.

DO I BELONG HERE....?


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## greatnavad

YUUUUUUUUUUUUHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

hello folks..could u please help me.......................

DO I BELONG HEREEEEEEEEE????


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## Guest

greatnavad said:


> YUUUUUUUUUUUUHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> 
> hello folks..could u please help me.......................
> 
> DO I BELONG HEREEEEEEEEE????


I'm no expert, but it sure wouldn't hurt to be 'here.' :wink: 
Sounds to me like you have at least some aspects of DP.....particularly the 'not feeling connected' part of it.

With me it's almost like I'm walking around in somebody else's body cause there is no since of 'mine' when I experience something or bring up memories to rehash. Another way to put it, I know it's all 'mine' because who else's could it be, but I have no sense of 'ownership.'


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## Pablo

It seems to me that DP and DR are just categories which dont really exist as such as everybodys situation is different and many peoples situations overlap with anxiety PTSD depression and all the other categories psychologists create to define what cant really be defined. But as a general rule if you feel like in situations you aren't really present or things dont feel real and it feels like you are disconnected from situations and feelings then you can probably say that DP and DR are presnt to some extent.


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## greatnavad

Replying to gentleman's post earlier, i dont thnk DP is a collection of unknown physch disorders.
DP has been identified as a definate CONDITION and extensive research is underway.

Checkout the Best Explanation of actual DP feelings that i have managed to find out yet ...ever....
This one's from the famous http://www.depersonalization.info/ site.

Its like I fall deep within myself. I look at my mind from within and feel both trapped and puzzled about the strangeness of my existence. My thoughts swirl round and round constantly probing the strangeness of selfhood - why do I exist? Why am I me and not someone else? At these times, feelings of sweaty panic develop, as if I am having a phobia about my own thoughts. At other times, I don't feel grounded' - I look at this body and can't understand why I am within it. I hear myself having conversations and wonder where the voice is coming from. I imagine myself seeing life as if it were played like a film in a cinema. But in that case, where am I? Who is watching the film? What is the cinema? The worst part is that this seems as if it's the truth, and the periods of my life in which I did not feel like this were the delusions.

AWESOME....ALMOST seems like a snapshot of my BRAIN under DP.


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## peacedove

YES... I would say you definitely have DP and belong here. Unfortunately.


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## Martinelv

I disagree with the initial sentiments. DP is NOT a miracle. It is a disorder. I don't care what anyone says.

DP actively causes the 'abnormal' thoughts and experiences you describe, so yes, it certainly does seem like you have DP, big time. Don't wallow in thoughts of how wonderfull it is, fight it. Fight it like you would cancer. It is NOT your natural state.

Alternatively, go to a Buddhist website and see what nonsense that have to say about it.


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## Scattered

Buddhism doesn't have any nonsense to say about DP because DP is in no way related to Buddhism or any other spiritual tradition. It's an illness thats far removed from any traditional understanding of an enlightened state, and anybody who says anything to the contrary is simply suffering from wishful thinking.


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## Guest

Scattered said:


> Buddhism doesn't have any nonsense to say about DP because DP is in no way related to Buddhism or any other spiritual tradition. It's an illness thats far removed from any traditional understanding of an enlightened state, and anybody who says anything to the contrary is simply suffering from wishful thinking.


It would be nice if you would include 'IMHO' to statements like this. Otherwise, I would tend to label you as ever-so-slightly 'arrogant.' :wink:


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## Pablo

Martinelv said:


> DP actively causes the 'abnormal' thoughts and experiences you describe, so yes, it certainly does seem like you have DP, big time. Don't wallow in thoughts of how wonderfull it is, fight it. Fight it like you would cancer. It is NOT your natural state.
> 
> Alternatively, go to a Buddhist website and see what nonsense that have to say about it.


Buddhism is more or less the complete opposite of DP as it is all about being more present and grounded in reality and being unaffacted by persistant thoughts.

But just because it is not your natural state it does not mean that you should fight it. It seems that most of the people on this site who have recovered who offer advice say dont fight it, as fighting it only feeds the anxiety energy which causes more anxiety and more DP. Anybody that has had a panic attack will tell you that fighting it only makes it worse, as is the case with all anxiety dissorders. What you resist persists.


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## Guest

Pablo said:


> Buddhism is more or less the complete opposite of DP as it is all about being more present and grounded in reality and being unaffacted by persistant thoughts.
> 
> But just because it is not your natural state it does not mean that you should fight it. It seems that most of the people on this site who have recovered who offer advice say dont fight it, as fighting it only feeds the anxiety energy which causes more anxiety and more DP. Anybody that has had a panic attack will tell you that fighting it only makes it worse, as is the case with all anxiety dissorders. What you resist persists.


Well said, Pablo.  IMHO :wink:

'Resist not the devil and he will flee from you.' Pardon the Biblical reference. I swear I'm not a bible-thumper, I've just read a lot. Pablo's remarks made me think of that scripture. :wink:


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## Scattered

*IMHO*


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## Martinelv

Sigh. I was being sarcastic again. Missed it by inches.

The reason I said that is because alot of people, when in the throes of DP, tend to seek out 'spiritual' meanings for thier experiences. Budhism, with it's potential for DP-like experiences, it the current favourite. But I couldn't agree with you all more. There are entirely different beasts.


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## greatnavad

Well , we have seemed to trigger off MR.BUDDHA here.
so here's what i know of that fella 

SO , 
Check out what this man had thought and preached 2.5 thousand years ago:
"man's life was condisdered and examined without any reference to a permanent self , for even if such a self exists, it is beyond our comprehension. The mind was looked upon as part of the body, a compostite of mental forces. THE individual thus becomes a bundle of mental states, THE SELF IS JUST A STREAM OF IDEAS. ALL THAT WE ARE IS A RESULT OF WHAT WE HAVE JUST THOUGHT"

That is remarkable truth that this man speaks, isnt it?
He even speaks of "NIRVANA" , a state of nothingness, where nothing exists , not even self.
I havent had the pleasure to fully go through all that he has said, but if this has some truth to it, then this disease of ours definately has a religious and spirtual angle to it..


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## Martinelv

Yeah, the same remarkable truth as Christianity, Hinduiasm, Islam, Spiritualism, Tarot, Astrology, Scientology...........yawn.

But you pay your money and takes your choice.


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## widescreened

agreed.every different faith proclaims to be the real truth.messiahs come and go with basically the same message;love yourself;love god;love each other or get destroyed.

i also think any future discussion on religion should take place in that forum,not here.it could discredit the forum or turn newcommers away from this site who need conventional help rather than further confusion.


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## Martinelv

Agreed. Anymore spiritual evangelising on this post and I'll move it to the spiritual forum.

By all means discuss ways that different faiths can help with DP, but don't go barking on about the 'truth' about these religions in the main forum.

Thanks guys.


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## greatnavad

HI,

Forgive me if i sounded like evangelising or proselytizing(or whatever the damn word), BUT IT WAS NEVER INTENDED THAT WAY.

I came to this forum and posted stuff becos i believed herein we could talk freely about our CONDITION without prejudice or fear of being butt of jokes.

Buddha or John claude van damme, makes no differnece to me, cause iam so wrapped in my condition , i think nobody can really help me....not even MYSELF..(SELF doestn exist).....

IAM an out and OUT ATHEIST and am living life ......just like that.....

I don t beleive in GOD or Godmen...i believe when we die, we dont go to heaven/hell....

I made comments about buddha thinkign some people would appreciate the fella in coming close to what we think...nobody's perfect ,.. and last thing in the world i would be doing is askign everyone to be liek BUDDHA

THE TRUTH is out there...take ur pick ...nobody is forcing anybody....


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## Martinelv

That's fine, no apology is needed, but your original post and the ones that followed should be posted on the spiritual form.

I too am an atheist, and even though I argue visciously against all kinds of religious, I recognise that it can give people some people. So the spiritual board is that place to be.


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## greatnavad

hi,
Thought it would be a good time to understand DP and its symptoms.
Dp study is still in its infancy, i know, but search the keywords on internet and there are many mental health pages which carry DP definintion somewhat like this :

_Depersonalization Disorder is where a person "looks at themselves from the outside", and observes their own physical actions or mental processes as if they were an observer instead of themselves. This often brings a sense of unreality, and an alteration in the perception of the environment around them, as well as the person fearing they are not in full control of themselves. Depersonalization can occur during a number of different times, and not be a disorder. In order to qualify as a disorder, it must be recurrent to the point that it interferes with daily functioning in at least one major area of life._

CLEARLY, this definition is not at all all inclusive and CORRECT, Right?

i mean analyzing the stuff part by part, here's how my DP symptoms line up.

_1."Depersonalization Disorder is where a person "looks at themselves from the outside", and observes their own physical actions or mental processes as if they were an observer instead of themselves. ..." T_
RUE, BUT THAT AINT MY REAL PROBLEM, I FEEL SOMETIMES THAT I DONT HAVE A SELF...IAM SELFLESS SOMETIMES...I KNOW WHO IAM TO OUTSIDE WORLD...I DONT HAVE AMNESIA...BUT ITS LIKE DEEP DOWN ..I DONT KNWO WHO IAM...
_
2.This often brings a sense of unreality, and an alteration in the perception of the environment around them, as well as the person fearing they are not in full control of themselves._

TRUE AGAIN... unreal as in what?.. i mean i fear i am losing control..but not really always..its only when iam thinking about this condition.

_3. order to qualify as a disorder, it must be recurrent to the point that it interferes with daily functioning in at least one major area of life. _

I DONT AGREE with it at all.. i mean i dont have physical symptoms...i doesnt interfere at all with outside world,.. cause i have a solid FRONT..its only deep thinking anguish...does that mean i don t qualify?


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## Martinelv

Qualify? Like you've won a prize ? :wink:

Sounds to me like you are suffering from some form of obsessional neurosis, which, of course, includes DP. It doesn't seem like you are suffering from DR, thank goodness. I was cursed by that filth for a year, twice!

Remember, the symptoms of DP can be transient. When you are busy or occupied, you rarely notice it.

Try not to rationalise your illness. DP feeds off obsessional rumination. The trick is to try and forget it, and silly as that sounds. Continue with your life as best you can, as I did, and with time, your symptoms should ease.


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## greatnavad

HI martin,
Thanks a millon for ur reply,

I must confess that iam not TOTALLY a newbie to DP...i have had this Crp for as long as i can remember...
its only that there wasnt any INTERNET and visiting a HEAD-DOC wasnt an option.

OF course, 2 yrs back ...when i was all alone after my graduation, i had full blown DP attack, when all i thought was "WHO IAM " .."what the world is " etc etc... THOSE days, i felt i could DECIPHER DP with my analytical mind just by working on it for HOURS...of course, mind is a bottomless pit...i was sinkin in it deeper and deepr...
I thought i would be a freaking buddha at the end of it..Course, it made things worse.
UR damn right, u can just bloody ignore the condition and live life without problems..well at least major ones. .
BUT deep down inside..ur hollow..

remarkably, iam a natural and almost a solid HUMAN being all of the times, EXCEPT when i TURN inward ON MY CONDITION..

AND to think that present form of DP hit me when i was watching a biography of SIR ISSAC NEWTON....


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## LOSTONE

Martinelv I don't like a lot of your post just to be honest, but your post in this thread I totaly agree with.

I think many of us have tied spirituality in with DP/DR and we shouldn't do that.

Also as was said, there are many diffrent religions and viewpoints of Truth in this world so it is probably best if we keep the Truth to ourselves and only preach to those who wish to be preached to.

My advise for everyone would be to search out everything that is heard and not to believe anything until you have put a lot of thought and research into what you choose to brainwash yourself with. 
Even many of the opinions on dpselfhelp.com are untrue and we should all try to remember that most of what is said in this world is just opinion and not fact.

The fact that there are so many diffrent truths in this world shows how many lies there actualy are. There can be only one real truth, any more then that and you have a paradox.

I think we should all be very careful about what we choose to believe and how we choose to act. 
And we should all consider the possibility that we could be wrong about what we believe in.

Sorry for posting my opinion after the subject switched, there were like 5or6 posts posted while I was writing this, sorry.


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## Martinelv

Yes, we've had our disagreements, but thank you for your post regardless.

But, tediously, I don't agree with your comments regarding 'brainwashing' yourself. It's not neccessary. You just have to realise what DP is. It's an illness. Pure and simple.

Of course you need to adopt a 'mindset' to deal with it, but it's aspect of mind, a state of mind, and an attitude, a F**K you DP attitude, that you require, not a terminal state of denial or whatever.

Martin.x


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## LOSTONE

Yes I agree.

What I ment about brainwashing is that whatever we choose to tell ourselves is truth becomes our own brainwashing. 
So we should do our homework before we say, AHH I have found the TRUTH! 
Because once we tell ourselves that we have found the truth it will be much harder to turn away from that truth even if we have a lot of evidence to prove it wrong. Humans are very defensive about their beliefs no matter how dumb they might be.


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## Martinelv

Yes Lostone, but sometimes there are no answers to some questions. Sometimes the truth hurts, destroys, so avoid it at costs.

I lived a lie when I had DR/DP. I ignored it. I denied it's existance. And I won. It that is morally wrong, then I don't care.


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## LOSTONE

> but sometimes there are no answers to some questions


This has been one of my biggest problems...

I am still looking for all the answers. I try to understand things the way only God could and it hurts my head sometimes.

It is hard to not have doubt when you can't answer all the questions about life, at least it is hard for me that is.

My search for answers and Truth will probably never end.

As my sig line points out, the more I learn, the more I hurt. 
The more questions I answer, the more questions I seem to have.


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## Martinelv

A good point, well said. That's why I don't bother asking, or searching for the 'truth'. Because, as I think, there really isn't any, except for that what we make ourselves. One man's truth is another mans lie.


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## ashley50

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## LOSTONE

> One man's truth is another mans lie


 :lol: 

How very true.

I know you don't like the bible but I just though I would let you know that even the demons have preached alongside with Jesus apostles at a time.

The demons acted holy and said good things but their intention was only bad, therefore in a way their Truth was a lie.

Because I am religious I consider most religions and most "TRUTH" to be the operation of demons.

I wish I could give up my unending quest for the real Truth because it can be very painful but I just can't stop myself from knowing what I know.

It is to late for me to be ignorant and happy, I already know to much.

The very reason their is so much TRUTH in the world is because all the false TRUTH makes the real TRUTH very hard to find.

Martinelv you must know that a single truth does exist. One belief has to be the right one, even if it is the belief that their is no God at all. I personally will never stop searching because I must know the full truth before I die. I won't let all of the lies stop me!


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## Martinelv

Who's truth? Your's? I don't understand. Truth is objective.

No, I reject that there is some great 'cosmic' truth. I reject it utterly.


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## LOSTONE

No I wont proclaim my truth here but you must know that there is a truth.

Without truth we would only have paradox and the universe would fall apart and we wouldn't exist anymore.

Scientist study truth just as religions do.

Hit yourself, don't you feel pain?
Pain is truth, thought is truth.

You think therefore you are, right???

If you are thinking then it is TRUTH that you exist and that there is a truth.

If there is not truth then there are no lies and there is not anything because without truth there can only be paradox as I have said.

Sorry if I got a little to philosophical but you said there is no truth so you went into a very philosophical territory.


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## LOSTONE

By the way TRUTH is not objective.

A truth is objective but the truth is not.

A persons perspective of truth is objective but that don't mean that there is no truth at all.

Think about it.


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## ashley50

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## LOSTONE

All we can do is search and try our hardest to sift through all the lies and objectivity and try to find the truth.

I have my own opinions about truth, but although I admit they are only opinions, I do declare that I have put a huge amount of thought into finding the real truth.

If we don't put in the effort then we are not worthy of the truth anyway, thats what I think.

By the way, I believe that people that are overly passionate about their beliefs are really just afraid that they are wrong about there beliefs and thats why they get so defensive about what they claim to believe in.

If everyone had real evidence to back up the things they say, then there would be no need to argue and make vague assertions about the truth.


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## ashley50

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## Luka

> No I wont proclaim my truth here but you must know that there is a truth.
> 
> Without truth we would only have paradox and the universe would fall apart and we wouldn't exist anymore.
> 
> Scientist study truth just as religions do.


I see you're back, Lostone. What is the truth? Yehova? Anyway, I don't agree that without truth we would only have paradox and therefore the universe would fall apart en thus we wouldn't exist anymore. I see absolutely no logic in your reasoning...And scientists try to study the truth (the world) as it is, as objective as possible. Religious people study books that are from "God's hands", but are actually an artifact of people. I wouldn't compare the two.


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## LOSTONE

Hi luka.
I am not back, I just never left  .

Yehova or Jehovah is my perspective of truth but I admit it is my perspective and not yours.

My point about truth has been missed I think.

Scientest study truth and so do religions, they just go about it in diffrent ways.

Many of them are wrong but just because many people are wrong does not mean that we don't exist and that we are not here.

We do exist and that is the truth I think all of us can agree on, can't we?

Maybe your truth is that God don't exist, and thats your perspective of truth, we can't both be right and we can't both be wrong or you will have your paradox. One of us must be right and thats all I am saying. Either God does exist or he don't. The truth that we choose to believe in is only going to be an objective truth and based on our own perspectives though.

Luka the real truth might not be my truth maybe it is your truth but I will tell you that I have spent a huge amout of time looking into the facts. 
All I would ask of you is that you never stop searching.
Maybe I have waisted all my time and I am wrong about my beliefs, but at least I put in the effort.


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## LOSTONE

Disagree with me all you want about my beliefs but I just hope that you are doing your own searching and making sure of yourselves as I am doing.

I realize the implications of what it would mean if I was wrong, I just hope all of you realize the implications of what it would mean if you were wrong also.


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## Luka

Oh, Lostone, I'm so sorry for you 



> We do exist and that is the truth I think all of us can agree on, can't we?


At this moment, yes. But don't ask that question in the midst of DP/DR okay? :wink:



> Maybe your truth is that God don't exist


I do believe in God(s).



> All I would ask of you is that you never stop searching.


I'll do that, that's why I became a philosopher


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## LOSTONE

> Oh, Lostone, I'm so sorry for you


Why?

Because I have chosen Jehovah as my God?

It was my choice and you shouldn't feel sorry for me because my choice to make Jehovah my God is the only thing that makes me happy and it is the only good that I know in this world.

Even if I am wrong, please don't feel sorry for me.

Maybe thats not what you ment about feeling sorry for me, I don't know.


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## The Wraith

Perhaps no one knows the truth. If the truth were a coporeal attainable artifact that could be authenticated as the truth, than no one would argue about it. It would be irrefutable. I don't nessecarily believe in absolute truth as much as I believe in the right for everyone to believe what they want and what makes them happy. There is no point in debating what is true and what isn't...because truth only exists in our will to survive eternally and evade extinction. It is simply there because we cannot fathom nothingness.


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## LOSTONE

> It would be irrefutable


Right, so why do so many people act like their truth is irrefutable?
I belive my truth to be the right one, but I know it is not irrefutable and actually the bible tells me that God don't want the truth to be irrefutable either so I am fine with that.

This is what I believe.
Mt 7:14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.

If it was irrefutable then it would not only be few that would be finding it.
So it don't bother me that most people don't agree with me.

The only thing that is totaly irrefutable is that I think therefore I am. Anything more then that requires at least a little faith.


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## Guest

DP is not a miracle. Period.


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## The Wraith

LOSTONE said:


> It would be irrefutable
> 
> 
> 
> Right, so why do so many people act like their truth is irrefutable?
> I belive my truth to be the right one, but I know it is not irrefutable and actually the bible tells me that God don't want the truth to be irrefutable either so I am fine with that.
> 
> This is what I believe.
> Mt 7:14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.
> 
> If it was irrefutable then it would not only be few that would be finding it.So it don't bother me that most people don't agree with me.
> The only thing that is totaly irrefutable is that I think therefore I am. Anything more then that requires at least a little faith.
Click to expand...

Well, I appreciate your outlook on it. Growing up as a Christian I can understand why people believe in the Bible and other holy scriptures. It is like literary medication, and it helps people in times of despair. I believe everyone is their own philosopher, and that if you believe in something you should follow it up with how you live. Not to say that you don't  , I just meant in general as a principle. As far as the truth. I think that the only way to really be comfortable, and convicted in what you believe is to challenge it, try to live without it, and then if even after you have built a stiff case against it you still find no flaws in it....then I guess someone can say what they believe is the truth, or the closest thing to truth that there is.

I found that most people believe in whatever is popular and whatever makes them feel safe. There is nothing wrong with that. I just detest people who are guilty of that who condemn those who really seek all that there is to be found out there. Other than that, I just think people should learn to find a path to their own happiness, and quit this whole blood paved crusade to find the ultimate "truth".


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## Guest

LOSTONE said:


> All we can do is search and try our hardest to sift through all the lies and objectivity and try to find the truth.
> 
> I have my own opinions about truth, but although I admit they are only opinions, I do declare that I have put a huge amount of thought into finding the real truth.
> 
> If we don't put in the effort then we are not worthy of the truth anyway, thats what I think.
> 
> By the way, I believe that people that are overly passionate about their beliefs are really just afraid that they are wrong about there beliefs and thats why they get so defensive about what they claim to believe in.
> 
> If everyone had real evidence to back up the things they say, then there would be no need to argue and make vague assertions about the truth.


MHO, there is 'babble' all over the planet...different cultures, different 'beliefs.' Anyone that says they 'have it' is just plain arrogant. 'Arrogant' doesn't have to look like 'pompous and puffed up.'

If you think about it in terms of "everybody has to stand somewhere until they can stand someplace else," then it's easier to just have your own stuff and let everybody else have theirs. The problems only start when one bunch thinks they have it 'over on' somebody else and then decide 'the heathen has to be vanquished.' That's just a power play, nothing more, nothing less.

My suggestion is to not try to find 'a truth' that you have to stand on for all time. Just read, read, read and contemplate things and try to see a bigger picture....not spiritually, just plain reality. Read history, read philosophy, read theology, read psychology and psychiatry, read quantum physics, read, read, read. I promise you that light bulbs will go off all over the place in a very short while.

I felt DRIVEN to read when I got hit with DP. I didn't trust people to 'tell me' anything. I didn't trust myself because my belief system had obviously fallen to pieces and left me floating in mid-air. But I finally realized I had to start somewhere so I decided that at least by reading, even though 'people' wrote the material, I could accept or reject it without someone being in my face. The only other criteria for acceptance or rejection was if something 'resonated' with me. Not to be confused with something 'agreeing' with me because I didn't have much of anything for anything else to agree 'with. I would feel 'touched' in a very real and substantial way by material I had never heard of or read about. Not emotional..something else. 'Dots' started connecting bigtime.

It took several years but I finally found a place to 'stand' that is devoid of any particular philosophy, medical, religious, scientific, or 'metaphysical/new age' platform. In a way, I guess you might say that I found 'peace' with the loss of my old self....which I prefer to say rather than making peace with DP. But because of some particular experiences that I had that were physically external in action but created internal, full body/mind experience that was not something 'I' did and therefore could not be consiged a specific 'mental state' of any kind, there is a 'plank' on my platform for nonphysicality....things outside our normal experience and having no definitive way to 'prove.'

As quoted in a post in another DP forum, and I'm paraphrasing, be open-minded, just don't let your brains fall out. :wink:


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## Guest

P. S. 'In the final analysis, 'Truth' is just a word. Maybe there's an 'ultimate truth' and maybe not. Nobody knows. In the meantime, just pick what you want your 'truth' to be and go for it. Just don't adopt a position of insisting someone else has to accept it. And besides, your 'truth' today may not be your 'truth' tomorrow. Things change. We learn, we grow...... Just enjoy the trip as much as you can.... :wink:


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## LOSTONE

> My suggestion is to not try to find 'a truth' that you have to stand on for all time. Just read, read, read and contemplate things and try to see a bigger picture....not spiritually, just plain reality. Read history, read philosophy, read theology, read psychology and psychiatry, read quantum physics, read, read, read. I promise you that light bulbs will go off all over the place in a very short while.


Thats what happened for me. 
After I got DP/DR I started reading about everything and asking all kinds of questions. I found a groop of people that are truely peaceful and I am very glade that I found them. The light bulbs have went off in my head a long time ago but I admit that I still have problems conforming to the lifestyle that I wish to have. It is very hard to do what is right. Even though I believe that I have found the real truth, I still read a lot just to be totaly sure of myself. I also just sit and meditate about things sometimes and meditation always makes things more clear to me.



> MHO, there is 'babble' all over the planet...different cultures, different 'beliefs.' Anyone that says they 'have it' is just plain arrogant. 'Arrogant' doesn't have to look like 'pompous and puffed up.


I don't think it is arrogant to believe that you have found the truth but it is arrogant to act like the truth is irrefutable because if it was then knowbody would have to teach the truth, we would all just know it!

I believe that I have found the truth about who God is and what he is doing but I am not arrogant about it because only a few years ago I was a blasphemer against God, and I know what the oppisite viewpoint is because I have had it myself. I am very surprised that God even lets me live after some of the things that I have said. I just wish that everyone would calm down about things and then we could all gather as humans and have a peaceful discussion about what really is the truth. The problems start with people that lack faith in thereself and therefore must attack instead of listen. It is to bad we can all just stop talking and listen to each other, we could learn so much.


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## Martinelv

Yes, either the 'light-bulbs' will go off or you'll go insane.

One of the unwritten rules about recovering from DR/DP is to NOT obsessively ruminate, and think about 'deeper' meanings, or possible spirital connections. I swear to you, it only makes it worse.

At least wait until you are better, if you really must.

DP/DP does NOT, NOT NOT NOT, give you some magical insight into 'truth' or whatever. It may seem that way, because of the experiences you are feeling, but it's not. It's a medical condition. Pure, and, simple.

The 'truth' revealed by DR/DP is akin to taking acid and drawing a self-portrait. You'll wake up in the morning and see a mad scribbed mess. Similarly, when you 'wake up' from DP/DP, you will realise it for what it is.


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## greatnavad

HI,
Though ur very forceful about it , u do make a point.

There have always been questiions as to what DP is, a problem in spiritual space or plain Brain-chemical space.
Lets not IMMEDIATely rule out any one out.

1. Humans were always consicous beings, they are prone to find out answers. This thirst for knowledge has seen man invent religion, invent wheel , invent an atomic bomb and land on moon.
human's never want to rest in doubt, somebody found atoms, questions were raised as to what they consisted.. answer.. subatomic particles like electron, nuetron....what do they CONSIST of .. answer..QUARKS...oh really..and what do they consist of......STRINGS OF ENERGY...(Its called string theory, the origin of EVERYTHInG).....

Point is ...Humans have consiousness..and they have a spirtual angle that no other animal in the world has.. i mean a dog doesnt think iam a clever jovial dog and with a definate character that i s ME...
we have a rare tendency to DIG in ...and its quite possible(ESP to ones like US with DP which isnt induced by DRUGS and do not have phsycial symptoms.) that we are digging deeper into our SELVES than ANY other MAN ever has...

Evidence towards this : DPEd people have IQ's which are among TOP 90+% of population...they are immensely ruminating chaps..

2. HUMAN brain is the most complex PROCESSSING machine ever known... i mean anybody who has designed a computer system would know how difficult it is to simulate even a single array of Neural networks which can adapt and make decisions based on training and adaptation.( IAM A COMPUTER GUY )

Human brain has billions of nueorons combinedly doing some of the most complex tasks.
ITs No wonder that thousands of things can go wrong in many people and they ususally DO.
IT MAY well be that then DP is a ILLNESS and is rooted in brain-chemical structure stuff...

Evidence : some poeple with DP show physical symptoms and some people have DRUG induced DP as well..

It may well be that DP is a combination of Spirtual and Chemical imbalance stuff..
Which ever ur take is , its clear that there is NO Definitive answer YET.
Please feel to add ur own views about this.


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## widescreened

well this has turned into a gr8 discussion!!

unfortunate individuals who are up to their necks in it and lost in the hall of distorted mirrors can only describe what it is like,and are at a most disadvantaged position in getting an insight on anything,least of all the metaphysics(or not) of dp/dr.

personally,i am very fortunate to say i m recovered.i am the person i was before it happened,not better or worse.in my view,i have to side on the psychologists side,not the side of spirituality.why?because we are all spiritual individuals anyway,even the more mundane of us.
to dedicate ones life to the persuit of any spiritual tradition is a major challenge for anyone,as there are no real answers to the questions of existence,eternity universal dimensions etc.
to live in the mundane physical world is challenging enough for dp sufferers without compounding it with metaphysics,existentialism etc.

to live as simply as possible with the mantra to do your best and use whatever tallent you have to your fullest should be the life we follow.to make the most of our lives and our time,without harming other people.simple as that.everything else should fall into place around this.

to go running after spiritual traditions and obsessing about them rather than doing the above is putting the cart before the horse.you end up not living.most likely,you end up being controlled.

any devine being or power that loves us will not punish us for making the most of our lives.

ps.....................this is my oppinion,not written in stone.forums should be wide open for debate.i look forward to agreements and disagreements to any of my posts.what matters most is that im leading a happier life now than i ever did according to this belief.


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## LOSTONE

Martinelv I think that we have many things in commen, it's to bad that we believe in totaly opposite things.



> DP/DP does NOT, NOT NOT NOT, give you some magical insight into 'truth' or whatever. It may seem that way, because of the experiences you are feeling, but it's not. It's a medical condition. Pure, and, simple.
> 
> The 'truth' revealed by DR/DP is akin to taking acid and drawing a self-portrait. You'll wake up in the morning and see a mad scribbed mess. Similarly, when you 'wake up' from DP/DP, you will realise it for what it is.


I am very glade that you pointed this out. 
Acid actually makes everything feel like it has meaning to it and Dp/Dr is the same way I think. People like us could easily tie in our everyday lives with God and/or spirituality. As you pointed out it is only Dp/Dr that makes us feel magicaly insightful. In reality we are not God's.

I once new a guy that I think has done to much Acid in his day and he showed me a drawing of a bunch of scribbled lines and told me that it was a building that he was going to build. He was serious, he told me that he has designed a masterpiece! I just thought to myself, dude your crazy thats just a scribbled mess. I know why he viewed his scribbled mess as a masterpiece though, it is the same reason I feel so strongly about some things.



> The 'truth' revealed by DR/DP is akin to taking acid and drawing a self-portrait. You'll wake up in the morning and see a mad scribbed mess. Similarly, when you 'wake up' from DP/DP, you will realise it for what it is.


Martinelv I think that your dead on when it comes to Dp/Dr. 
I have seen proof of what you have said with my own eyes. 
It is easy for us to look at a scribbled mess and call it a masterpiece, I think we should all be careful about how we view things.



> Yes, either the 'light-bulbs' will go off or you'll go insane.


Many people that are no longer a part of my religion say the same thing. 
They felt like they were going insane so they quit and left the religion, now they say that the religion is insanity because they were unable to fully understand it. My mom tells me all the time that I need to stop reading the bible because it is going to make me insain but I am not like her so I just keep reading.

As my sig line says, an increase in knowledge is an increase in pain and vexation, and some people just can not handle that I think. They go insain because they can't make heads or tails out of the information.


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## sunyata samsara

LOSTONE said:


> Martinelv I don't like a lot of your post just to be honest, but your post in this thread I totaly agree with.
> 
> I think many of us have tied spirituality in with DP/DR and we shouldn't do that.
> 
> Also as was said, there are many diffrent religions and viewpoints of Truth in this world so it is probably best if we keep the Truth to ourselves and only preach to those who wish to be preached to.
> 
> My advise for everyone would be to search out everything that is heard and not to believe anything until you have put a lot of thought and research into what you choose to brainwash yourself with.
> 
> Even many of the opinions on dpselfhelp.com are untrue and we should all try to remember that most of what is said in this world is just opinion and not fact.
> 
> The fact that there are so many diffrent truths in this world shows how many lies there actualy are. There can be only one real truth, any more then that and you have a paradox.
> 
> I think we should all be very careful about what we choose to believe and how we choose to act.
> 
> And we should all consider the possibility that we could be wrong about what we believe in.
> 
> Sorry for posting my opinion after the subject switched, there were like 5or6 posts posted while I was writing this, sorry.


there is no truth


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## gill

sunyata samsara said:


> there is no truth


Ain't that the truth...


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## Guest

I don't believe DP has anything to do with enlightenment.

Enlightenment is nothing but the ability to stop your mind at any time, be present, and make real, deep choices. There's no such thing as becoming enlightened. It's not something supernatural quality that only one in a million can have. It's not like, you work years and years to finally become enlightened. It's like you just decide to be present NOW.

"Enlightenment" is when you are NOT controlled by fears and automatic thoughts, in DP/Anxiety you're OVERWHELMED by fears.
"Enlightenment" is when you feel present, and connected to your environemt, in DP/Anxiety you've NEVER FELT THIS DISCONNECTED.

the reason why some people talk about the connection, is that the word "emptiness" is used to describe both. But DP/Anxiety is not emptiness, it's great pain and overwhelming fears, and not feeling connected to yourself.

Your personality is untouched while you're in DP, you just don't FEEL like yourself.


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## Guest

Martinelv said:


> DP/DP does NOT, NOT NOT NOT, give you some magical insight into 'truth' or whatever. It may seem that way, because of the experiences you are feeling, but it's not.


I agree. DP doesn't show you the truth, it shows you the WORST POSSIBLE perspective on life.

The only good it can do to you is make you prepared for anything. I can't really imagine worse emotional experience than DP/Anxiety.


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## Abraxas

greatnavad said:


> Do you folks think the symptoms indicate classic DP?
> 
> Please help me if i belong here.


yeah man you belong, but stop mis-guiding people. DP is not a miracle. it is a disease.


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