# Chemical imbalance myth



## wise (Mar 29, 2012)

http://chriskresser.com/the-chemical-imbalance-myth


----------



## Guest (Feb 11, 2013)

Yeah I don't believe in the "chemical imbalance"


----------



## teddy1up (Dec 30, 2012)

really????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

hahaha


----------



## Guest (Feb 13, 2013)

Really


----------



## daydreambeliever (Jun 15, 2011)

Yeah. Chemical imbalance was created so chemical companies would have an easy time selling their newest discovery and make some money to make more chemicals. They are major control freaks. Do you notice how chemicals are in everything now, and they want to be the only treatments there are too? Big business at it's worst. Chemicals this, chemicals that... so there is always a chemical answer, right?

lol. don't take me serious. it's been a long ass day!  Please forgive me too. I have dial up and I didn't go to the link.


----------



## MisterMister (Oct 12, 2009)

Why do antidepressants improve one's mood then?


----------



## thminn (Jul 30, 2012)

MisterMister

alcohol lowers anxiety.would you say that people with anxiety have an alcohol deficit?


----------



## daydreambeliever (Jun 15, 2011)

MisterMister said:


> Why do antidepressants improve one's mood then?


They never helped mine and I found the side disgusting.


----------



## Guest (Feb 20, 2013)

This is the biggest Bullshit thread i ever read. I can't even consider this pseudoscience. LOL

Thank you doctors.


----------



## opie37060 (Jan 9, 2010)

Anti-deppressants have helped me out heaps and i'm pretty sure a lot of other people on this site feel the same way.


----------



## Victor Ouriques (Jul 15, 2011)

Chemical Imbalance is not a lie.

Otherwise,meds wouldn't help you with anxiety symptons/depression.

The problem is:

Chemical Imbalance is what causes mental disease or mental diseases causes Chemical Imbalance?

In MY view,we've got a chemical imbalance yes,but it's due to our emotions.Not the reverse.

Our emotions aren't fucked up because of our brain chemistry.Our brain chemistry is fucked up because of our emotions.


----------



## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)




----------



## Guest (Feb 27, 2013)

Figure I'd post this here as I am also fundraising for Active Minds -- peer support for uni students who are ashamed to seek mental health care.

http://active.convio.net/site/TR/Events/General?px=1034261&pg=personal&fr_id=1040

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Now. The brain is the most complex thing in the freakin' UNIVERSE, so no, we may NEVER understand how it works. However theories that exist now change daily. Concepts in medicine that were applied even 5 years ago are now out of date. This again indicates plasticity in the brain and how medications might work.

Also, medicines for brain disorders were usually discovered serendipitously. For example individuals placed on say a medicaiton for Tuberculosis (when it was a death sentence) caused elevated mood in patients. Imagine if a patient had always been depressed and had TB, and was given a med for the TB and said, "My GOD, I feel better mentally than I ever have." The history of psychiatry goes back centuries.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23154052

*Eur Neuropsychopharmacol. 2013 Jan;23(1):55-62. doi: 10.1016/j.euroneuro.2012.10.011. Epub 2012 Nov 13.*
*Brain, networks, depression, and more.*
Leistedt SJ, Linkowski P.

Source
Laboratory of Psychiatric Research, Department of Psychiatry, Erasme Academic Hospital, Université Libre de Bruxelles (U.L.B.), Belgium. *Electronic address: [email protected]*

Abstract
"Depression is a heterogeneous disorder with a highly variable course. Individual responses to treatment are inconsistent, and an established mechanism remains elusive.

The classical hypothesis of depression posits that mood disorders are caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain that can be corrected with antidepressant drugs.

*However, recent evidence indicates that information-processing dysfunction within neural networks might underlie depression, and antidepressant drugs induce plastic changes in neuronal connectivity that gradually lead to improvements in neuronal information processing and recovery.*

This review presents the major current approaches to understanding the biological mechanisms of major depression, with a focus on complex brain networks."

Copyright © 2012 Elsevier B.V. and ECNP. All rights reserved.
PMID:
23154052
[PubMed - in process]

No, I am not an apologist for "Big Pharma" -- I am all for research. Not all of it is funded by pharma. Much is funded by grant money. Big Pharma pushes certain medications, yes. TV advertising is ridiculous. But take a look at a neuroscientists POV. Maybe.

tl:dr I know, I know, lol.


----------



## Guest (Feb 27, 2013)

Anyone want to discuss if this is all garbage, why not email Sam Leisted in Belgium and have it out with him. 

*[email protected]*


----------



## Guest (Feb 27, 2013)

in·di·cate
transitive verb \ˈin-də-ˌkāt\
in·di·cat·edin·di·cat·ing

Definition of INDICATE
1
a : to point out or point to

b : to be a sign, symptom, or index of <the high fever indicates a serious condition>

c : to demonstrate or suggest the necessity or advisability of <indicated the need for a new school> <the indicated treatment>
2
: to state or express briefly <indicated a desire to cooperate>
Examples of INDICATE
1. Our records indicate a depth of 3,000 feet here.
2. The map indicates where the treasure is buried.
3. There is nothing to indicate that the two events are connected.
4. The size of his offer indicates that he is eager to buy the house.
5. The general used a long ruler to indicate on the map exactly where the troops would land.
6. We asked how to get to the rear entrance, and he indicated a path leading around the right side of the building.
Origin of INDICATE
Latin indicatus, past participle of indicare, from in- + dicare to proclaim, dedicate - more at diction
*First Known Use: 1541*

-----------------------------------

Nevermind.

Susto, you get so angry. You can put me on ignore. Why believe anything in this world is true? You've made up your mind. I honestly haven't, I've built theories over years, and I'm willing to be open to new ones in the future. Are ALL scientists, neurologists completely ignorant of reality? Is that possible that thousands upon thousands of individuals working in the sciences/medicine are completely wrong?

I would call myself an agnostic, not an atheist, because I don't know. I have found the world to be so mysterious ... no one will ever figure why we're here. And I've always thought, if any God came into my room right now, I would still say, "But where did YOU come from?"

I can post what I have researched. It shouldn't bother you so much. Yes, just put me on ignore. I have a number of peopleon ignore and it's rather more pleasant that way.


----------



## Guest (Feb 27, 2013)

Doctors are not all researchers. Usually they are one or the other.

You do not believe in ANY science? Physics? Biology?

If we agree things exist, we can always say they have a "greater" origin. I don't know why this is such a sticking point for people.

How many here have taken university courses? In anything? You may not agree with a professor, or a book, but doesn't it open your mind?

Compassion, empathy, an open mind. But ultimately all of us have to have some philosophy of life, some way of understanding our situation. Why attack another POV. Just like Conservatives and Liberals here. So tired of politics. Same stupid stuff.


----------



## broken3309 (Oct 23, 2012)

No offense Dreamer, but Susto wasn't being uncompassionate just because he disagrees. I think you need to get ahold of the fact that other things exist beyond medicine. Humans are so perfectly created, we have a bone over our heart to protect it, a skull to protect our brain, eyelashes, nose hairs. I mean, we're perfect. I have the same view as you on God. Who created him? But maybe that's not for anyone to know. Its obvious to me that there are powerful things going on around us. There is an article of a little boy who had a supposedly incurable brain tumor. There was nothing medicine could do for him, doctors gave up, but he didn't. He believed with all his might that it wasn't the end for him. He gave the tumor a name and pretended his brain was eating it instead of the other way around, and it DISAPPEARED. Your mind is so powerful, powerful enough to create dp. I don't doubt that you truly believe the things you post and I am not angry you think that way, I just hate to see someone who has suffered so long putting her faith into people who don't really have an answer. People PRACTICE science, they aren't all knowing. Yes, some great advances have been made, no doubt. But there can always be too much of a good thing. I just don't think everything can be explained by science. There are too many things that can't be...


----------



## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

Perhaps Functional Imbalance is somehow better than Chemical Imbalance

*functional *- "capable of serving the purpose for which it was designed"

*imbalance *- "a lack of balance, as in emphasis, proportion, etc."

Being depressed, anxious and/or depersonalized are unpleasant states. They all exist in everyone from time to time in response to situations. But when chronic (continuous or reoccurring), people are unhappy and at times cannot even function well (hold a job, pass tests, take care of self, ...).

As to mental being different than physical, Ernst Gellhorn surprised the world when he demonstrated that neurons (physical) affect emotions (mental). We are physical. The responses to chemicals (Prozac, etc...) demonstrate this.

How we control our emotions changes neuron circuits firing/balance as well. We are 'learning machines'. Everyone can benefit from positive thinking and environment. Twelve sessions of CBT are statistically more effective than Prozac.

But people (not just doctors and drug companies) want 'magic' pills to fix them. And many can get Prozac through their GP covered by insurance but not get psychological counseling paid for. Also time (going to shrink to yack for hours) and the awkwardness of talking to a stranger about problems and innermost feelings that, some of which you don't want to even 'talk' to yourself about.

So, yes, drugs are overprescribed. This is a social problem, not just drug companies. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me"

As far as having HIV or Cancer tests before taking a med. Yes, it is nice that such tests exist. But they don't for mood. IMO there never will be practical and/or truely reliable tests for such. Also, meds for cancer and HIV are far more dangerous than 'mood' drugs.

There have long been 2 fields of medicine (and do forgive if I don't get the terms exactly correct).

1) Clinical observation

2) Experimental observation

In the end, you will find you are better if you can find a doctor who is good at clinical diagnosis. And BTW, many diseases can only be diagnosed by clinical observation ... the other option is autopsy, which is obviously too late.

If you don't like your doctor offering pills to you, tell him you want to try better solutions and ask for them.

Remember the very nature of 'modern' medicine. It started (over 2000 years ago) by collecting statistics on how people responded to treatment (instead of just praying to the gods and offering sacrifices). These were shared and passed down and this is the way medicine works today - Statistics. For a doctor it is called following protocol.

With this in mind, if 90% of people respond positively to a certain med, the doctor will likely try you on it. Then if that doesn't help, then he'll try the next option which might be 7% ... then the next 2% and so on. If you don't respond to the 90% category, then you are call 'atypical'. ect...ect...ect...

Doctors are NOT researchers. When you come in with a condition that doesn't have established treatment protocols, then it is difficult to get help. And if a doctor tries something too strange, he can lose his license - his means of living with $250,000 of student loans to pay back. Not surprising that it can take a while to find suitable help.

Also, to say that you can cure anything with positive attitude is not correct. A hundred years ago, Multiple Sclerosis was considered and attitude problem ... the suggested treatment was beatings. Christopher Reeves had a severed spine and a VERY positive attitude ... but more was needed. There ARE people who really need something more that just an 'attitude adjustment'.

In the end, it is your own responsibility to gain and maintain your health. Others are just helpful. Doctors are just tools, and as such, you can't fix a bolt with a hammer - find tools that work for you.


----------



## broken3309 (Oct 23, 2012)

It isn't about having an attitude adjustment. It' about realizing that every problem you are having is a result of your thoughts and feelings, and that as a creation of the Universe healing from within is totally possible. Meds help but are NEVER a cure.


----------



## Haumea (Jul 11, 2009)

I think science is too preoccupied with causality. And in its worst form, it bubbles down into the culture at large as *scientism*.

So you get these mechanistic, materialistic explanations: A causes B. A chemical imbalance causes depression, depersonalization, anxiety, etc.

But chemical imbalance isn't a first cause, it's a *state*. Something may have caused the chemical imbalance.

Don't look at it as A----->B.

Perhaps it's:

A1------>B1-------->A2------->B2....etc. In other words a circular mechanism, a closed loop, or something even more complex with negative and positive feedbacks.

We know that cognitive behavioral therapy has an effect on the brain, as does mindfulness meditation.

Why? You're not taking any exogenous substances to change your brain chemistry. You're using your consciousness, s'all.

I think the trouble with scientists is that many of them are looking at a small piece of the structure, and are not able to envision the entire complex mechanism. Because it's very hard to do that. Science breaks things up into little pieces and studies causality via statistical analysis. It's very left brain.

I think of the book Chaos: A New Science and am reminded that, in search for simplicity, scientists frequently do not see what is in front of their eyes - they ignore "messy" results because of how their discipline has taken shape. So one has to understand that they are frequently working with flawed, incomplete paradigms of reality.


----------



## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

Why would it be necessary for "spiritual dimension" to exclude being "physical"?

Why would being "physical" mean "free will is an illusion"? As it exists now, there are more synaptic connection posibilities in one brain then there are atoms in the known universe ... is that not enough? Or does "free will" require a "mystic"?

If you want to see how neuronic people are, start visiting nursing homes and other places where people have brain injuries (strokes, TBI, ect...) and note that some suffer changes in personality ("spirit").

If you want to belive that you can shrink your tumors with postitive thinking, grow new limbs, not get old and die, and leap tall buildings in a single bound ... go for it. If you want to take Prozac or Vodka ... go for it. If you want medical research to fix things ... just wait and see.

Each must choose what they will do.


----------



## Guest (Feb 28, 2013)

mikez said:


> Chemical imbalance or not..whre the fuck is the scientific testing that needs to be done before prescribing someone with medications?
> 
> Like I always say...verbal diagnosis is just not enough to prescribe someone with medication that alter their brain chemistry.
> 
> ...


The scientific testing/research on the brain is very difficult. You can draw blood, use a blood pressure cuff, use X-Rays, and all manner of other tests for other problems, but you can't go taking samples of someone's brain.

Great advances have occurred when someone needs sugery (for a tumor or epilespy) and is kept awake and tested for reactions to probes. The testing is important as excising the wrong piece of tissue can damage verbal processing, personality, etc.

Advances have also come from autopsy of the human brain, done at the Harvard Brain Bank at McLean Hospital. Both healthy brains and those with MANY problems -- Parkinson's, schizophrenia, demetia from repeated sports injuries (longitudinal studies of football players over 30 years), cancer, Alzheimer's. There are both healthy brains donated as well as brains with disorders. I have placed my own brain on the donor list, though it is very difficult to salvage brains save under the proper circumstances. Link: I have been at seminars on this at various NAMI Conventions and I am a donor.

*http://www.brainbank.mclean.org/* <--- if someone says this isn't research I give up. It is also funded by grants, and by alumni of Harvard, etc.

Research into genetics is proving to provide endless information, and that couldn't have been accomplished with the completion of the Genome Project. And now we find that genes can be "turned on and off" by epigenes.

*There is also a blood test for depression in its early stages -- in the testing process. There are also many scans now which show how the brain reacts with various disorders.*

In the meantime, would you institutionalize the mentally ill and not give them help? I know many people who would be dead without medication and therapy. Bipolar and schizophrenia in particular. I know them PERSONALLY.

*Also, latest: GENETIC testing which can be done if you spit in a cup. I have done this for other disorders including a test for risk for cancer. What is interesting is though I do not have the BCRA 1, 2 genes I still developed cancer. But those who do are at very high risk. But there is not guarantee in THAT situation either.* I have personally voluteered for non invasive (non drug) trials at the Depression Center at the University of Michigan.

*CURRENT ARTICLE*
http://bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/02/28/autism-schizophrenia-and-other-psychiatric-disorders-share-genetic-underpinnings/24vIjiSJCJwGdrZB0Uu8lL/story.html

*Mental illnesses share genetic underpinnings*
The Bosotn Globe -- 2/28/13 -- TODAY
*By Carolyn Y. Johnson
Boston Globe Staff *
February 28, 2013

"An international consortium, including researchers from Boston, has for the first time discovered a handful of common genetic underpinnings for five distinct psychiatric illnesses, providing evidence that disorders such as schizophrenia and autism overlap - and may share fundamental biological causes.

The study is one step in an ambitious effort that could ultimately redraw or blur the boundary lines between psychiatric illnesses, based on a precise understanding of the underlying biology.

Over the past five years, many teams have focused on analyzing genetic variants - spots in the genome that commonly differ among people - to pinpoint the risk factors for disorders. In the new work, published Wednesday in The Lancet, researchers examined genetic data from people with autism, depression, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and attention deficit-hyperactivity disorder, and found clues that genes involved in signaling within the brain may go awry in a broad set of psychiatric illnesses.

'This is the first time we've seen specific genetic variants that seem to confer risk across traditional boundaries, to a broad range of child- and adult-onset disorders," said Dr. Jordan Smoller, a professor of psychiatry at Massachusetts General Hospital and Harvard Medical School and a leader of the study. "Each one of them, by themselves, still accounts for a small amount of the risk. The fascinating thing is there might be such variants that cross our clinically distinct syndromes."'

Smoller and colleagues analyzed genetic data from more than 33,000 people with the five disorders and compared them with nearly 28,000 people without mental illness. They found four spots in the genome that were more common among those with psychiatric disease, two of which occurred in genes involved in communication between brain cells.

They also found that genetic risk factors for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia had the most overlap. Interestingly, autism, a disorder that emerges in childhood, overlapped with both disorders, which typically emerge in adulthood.

Those are tantalizing clues for scientists, who now have a range of starting points for teasing out more about the shared biological basis of these psychiatric diseases. What the new study cannot do is provide a way of predicting mental illness with a gene test. All the genetic variants highlighted are very weak risk factors.

Dr. Daniel Weinberger, director of the Lieber Institute for Brain Development, a nonprofit research institution in Maryland, compared deciphering the genetics of psychiatry to trying to divine what causes something else with a diverse array of causes, such as car accidents.

"What you would discover, across a diverse population of car accidents, is a factor common to most of them, which may in any individual case not explain much risk," Weinberger said. "What you end up with is a driver's license."

But he added that such an approach is helping to elucidate mechanisms and the biology behind disorders.

"They are the first objective clues as to what mental illnesses are at a basic biological level," Weinberger said.

Dr. Judith Rapoport, chief of the child psychiatry branch at the National Institute of Mental Health, the federal agency that funded the research, said the work resonated with her own. Rapoport studies a form of schizophrenia that occurs in childhood. She has looked at "copy-number variations," in which DNA segments are repeated an unusual number of times in patients' samples. But, strikingly, copy-number variations associated with intellectual disability, schizophrenia, autism, and epilepsy have also shown up in her samples.

"There's a sense in psychiatry there may be some very common genetic variants that, let's say hypothetically, very early on affect very early brain development. . . . Then, maybe environment, or interactions with other genes" causes a particular illness to develop, Rapoport said. She said the new study also may help explain why a person with one psychiatric disease is often at risk of developing other problems.

The next step will be to further investigate the gene variants flagged by the study to see whether scientists can understand what role they might play - and whether they might reveal new targets for treatments. The researchers also hope to include more disorders in their sample to see whether other shared risk factors emerge."

Carolyn Y. Johnson can be reached at [email protected] Follow her on Twitter @carolynyjohnson.


----------



## Guest (Feb 28, 2013)

> you, like dreamer, knows very little about spirituality


Again, Susto, I understand your frustation, but please do not assume what my views on spirituality are.

And I could say, for those who believe in a Christian God/Jewish/Muslim etc. -- if God created us, did he not create all manner of suffering? My cousin, a Baptist, sees his own illness (he is paralyzed on one side of his body -- age 70 -- strange brain infection -- a man in perfect health) ... he sees his own illness as a spiritual challenge. Initially he saw it as a punishment. I support him in his beliefs though I may not agree with all of them.

He tells me I will go to Hell as I am not Baptized. I do not even bother reacting to that.

I wrote a long bit on my journey re: spirituality somewhere here and you never replied.

Please don't make assumptions. That's all I ask. About anyone here.

If I am anything, I am a Buddhist and a Jew. And I keep what spiritual feelings I have to myself. Why is that not enough for you? I have many friends of faith who don't discuss it, and who have been through so many trials in their lives. Some attend church or synagogue (I have attended both) and others do not, but use prayer or meditation for hope.

I am also in somethng of a 12 Step Program re: depression. You know the mantra ... we do not say this in the meeting, but it is a given ... you give up control to a "higher power" -- whatever that means to you. Let go of control.

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

I understand your fear and frustration. I also am not looking for any "magic bullet" -- I don't see such a thing in my lifetime. As Visual says, I use all the tools available. A depression support group, therapist, shrink for meds, cancer support group and activities, social activities, and my mental health advocacy. I have a "quiet faith" you would not understand as I have not expressed it

You may be very suprised to know that many doctors (and I have friends who are doctors) have spiritual faith. I don't know why you assume anyone who is in science doesn't.

I am not angry. I am puzzled by your anger. As time goes on, I realize it's OK to be myself -- it has taken years to accomplish that. So how can you judge me on making this milestone. I notice recently I don't get hurt here as often. Progress. Whether you see it or not. And I do not talk about symptoms here -- I am past that. Many here are where I was at age 10, 15, 20, 25 years of age.

tl:dr


----------



## Guest (Feb 28, 2013)

> Both you and Dreamer are very good at talking so much that the reader forgets what was the debate about in the first place.
> 
> Please answer these simple questions: Do you believe that you have a
> FREE WILL to choose what you think about? Do you believe that you are
> responsible for your thoughts, actions and feelings?


Had to respond.

*Of course there is Free Will! I never said there wasn't. Doubt Visual has ever said that either in all the time he's been around.*

*Thing is Free Will is on a spectrum as everything else.*

Does a child born with Down Syndrome have Free Will? Most such children have a personality wherein they are incapable of harm, many are incapable of hatred. So they could never choose to be bad or hurt others.

Pedophiles -- I know one in prison, and I'm disgusted -- he had Free Will to resist overwhelming urges and he didn't.

You have Free Will to abstain from sex for the rest of your life, from murdering someone, from stealing, etc. In some the impulse is a lifelong battle they lose. An alcoholic has free will to decide he should never drink again, or someone who smokes, someone who is addited to anything ... but many are often overpowered by the addiction.

Fearless, you have Free Will to not insult people over and over and over. You have Free Will to look at both sides of a discussion, but you don't use that.

The deal is, Nature and Nurture are inextricably linked. And if you think I'm wrong in that concept, fine.

Why so defensive? And why assume you know anything about others here?

Some have more Free Will than others. As I always say, spend time with an individual who has a brain tumor, or schizophrenia or bipolar. Spend time with someone dying of cancer. Spend time with someone with Alzhiemer's or congestive heart failure. There comes a point where we are finally overcome by our mortality.

*I would honestly love to spend time with you Fearless, I am serious. I think you would see I'm not the idiot you think I am. And perhaps I would not see such an angry person. The difficulty of the internet. My guess is you wouldn't want to meet me. I'm willing to meet you.*

I know. TLR and I will attempt to refrain from saying, no one can express one's self in any intelligent manner in 2 sentences. That is the unfortunate result of our "sound bite" media/computer/instant gratification age. No reading. No studying. Hey, I have used my Free Will to stop watching TV and reading and engaging in social activities.

*facepalm* ROFL 

*facepalm**facepalm**facepalm**facepalm**facepalm**facepalm**facepalm*


----------



## Guest (Feb 28, 2013)

Seriously, Fearless, do you live in the US? I would honestly like to sit down with you. I've met a lot of people from this board in person. A lot of good people. Some not so good. If you lived close enough I would like to meet you and talk with you.


----------



## JackDanielß (Nov 28, 2012)

> Some not so good

Wonder what that means


----------



## Guest (Feb 28, 2013)

> My anger is just that psychiatry does more harm than good to some people, that's all.


Susto, I agree that psychiatry has both harmed and helped ME. The point is so has every other branch of medicine.

Not ALL psychiatrists are evil. My mother was, that's for certain. So I have a particular problem with psychiatrists. I would not see a woman DOCTOR for years -- any kind of woman doctor for ANYTHING. And no female psychiatrist or therapist.

I changed my mind after a while and found a wonderful female therapists I have now.

I have had a doctor operate on me for a terrible sinus problem -- he really screwed up. Found he was an alcoholic. I know therapists who are IN therapy.

There are good and bad individuals in EVERY profession and that includes plumbers and bus drivers.


----------



## Guest (Feb 28, 2013)

JackDanielß said:


> > Some not so good
> 
> Wonder what that means


Scary people. Very angry people who scared other people. They had other problems besides DP. Always have met people in a public place. I have met DPers in Los Angeles, Michigan, Toronto, Washington, D.C., and London.  It is best to meet any stranger (off the internet) -- it's like a dating site warning -- with others and with some caution.

95% of the people I met were very kind. Some were liars, pretenders. One did not have DP/DR but knew how to manipulate people. Dangerous.


----------



## Guest (Mar 1, 2013)

Susto said:


> Spirituality is not just about faith, it's a science too. When I say you know little about it, I'm not making assumptions, I just see it in your posts, I see your knowledge on mental health is strictly based on modern medicine. I don't need to read your post to know it's like others, about genetics and stuff. I wont arguie about that anymore, each one on it's walk.
> 
> My anger is just that psychiatry does more harm than good to some people, that's all.


Well, again, we must agree to disagree. "Spirituality is faith and science," yet modern medicine is based on science, it IS science. I have said in about fifty different posts -- I do not know why we are here, I have to accept that there is something "greater." That does not preclude my believing in science. There are MANY doctors who believe in God, "a higher power" are "spiritual individuals."

There are many scientific researchers who have spiritual lives.

I don't know how you want to define spiritual ... no, I am not talking about organized religion, but it stands to reason if someone declares they are not an atheist and is open to the "spiritual" -- well, I'm completely confused by your comment.

All you want me to do really is deny I believe in the scientific research I have presented here. This would also be to deny that the earth is round (it was once believed to be flat), that the earth revolves around the sun (vs. the sun revolving around the earth), that we can now predict the weather with amazing accuracy, that we can predict earthquake patterns, warn against tsunamis. We fly in airplanes. You are usuing a machine that I didn't even IMAGINE could exist when I grew up -- I had no cell phone, no computer in university.

We have sattelites in space to pick up your cell phone. We have electricity ..... how much science do I have to mention. None of this is true and it means that there is no spirituality in the world?

The question is, is mind and soul separate. An atheist (like my mother, a psychiatrist) would say, there is no soul. I am not an atheist. But my ability over the years to open up to the spiritual was beaten down for about 30 years. But I am far more open to it. I am not my mother. She didn't win.

Very curious, what would make me "spiritual." If I were a doctor -- your family doctor, your dentist, your eye doctor, the individual who runs an X-Ray machine if you break your leg, the individual who draws your blood, the woman who performed a bilateral mastectormy on me. My oncologist who has given me medication to keep me cancer free. Do you know that MOST of them have spiritual faith. I ask them. In a hospital they ask you if you are of a particular faith -- do you want a priest at your bedside should you be dying. In the past I didn't want anyone. I am of no particular faith. My parents were of no faith.

These days, I say, "why not?" And I have to laugh that when my mother was dying, I read the Bible to her, I sang to her -- religous songs. And her old favorites. She would have hit me in the head for it, but I did it anyway, because I felt I needed to. Because I wanted to leave that door open, even though I knew she never loved me.

I'd like to meet you too Susto.

You and Fearless. And figure out what the real disagreement here is.

I'm still not clear. I would like to understand, and I don't.

If you believe differently from the way I do, you should be confident enough in your belief/spirituality that you shouldn't be bothered by my posts. I am pleasantly unbothered by yours now. It feels good, to be myself.

And no, I have faith in parts of both Western and Eastern medicine.

Whtaever.


----------



## Guest (Mar 1, 2013)

Nature + Nurture is a pretty much accepted view of scientists around the world. Not just in the West.

What is our given predisposition plus effects of our enviornment (from how we are raised, to our community, our social class, our access to healthy food and water, etc.). This is studied by sociologists. I'd gather they're full of it as well? Ah well.


----------



## Guest (Mar 1, 2013)

Susto do you live in the US? Eastern, Central, or Pacific? Don't have to be more specific.

I think we just see things in the same way sometimes, and yet express them differently. IDK.

I should get another US group together. More tough to do than when I lived in L.A.


----------



## Guest (Mar 1, 2013)

> Do you believe that you have a FREE WILL to choose what you think about?
> 
> Do you believe that you are responsible for your thoughts, actions and feelings?


1. Our minds are too complex to have "free will" re: what we *think.* Thoughts come and go. You act on them or not. This would be like saying we have control over what pops up in our dreams at night. Someone who hallucinates (and individuals who are NOT psychotic hallucinate) has NO control over such thoughts. This is too complex for one word.

2. *I believe I am responsible for my BEHAVIOR.* I can choose to act morally, responsibly, get to work on time, contribute to society. I can choose to follow a passion, to help others, to be the best person I can be. We all have limitations. I can choose to love. I can choose not to hate. I can choose not to murder, steal, have an affair, etc.



> If you believe in free will, then it means that if you think you have
> terrible emotions and scary thoughts, it means it's YOUR RESPONSIBILITY,
> and the answer is not in chemical imbalances. End of story.


Well, I disagree with this. Symptoms of any illness are not something we are responsible for. You can't be responsible for having high blood pressure. You can ACT on a scary thought -- with many tools -- to control it, sometimes eliminate it. You take your blood pressure medication, or lose weight, or exercise more, some individuals, despite exercise and diet change still have high blood pressure -- at that point they have no control and OMG resort to medications. Some people can do everything in their power to stop having an obsessive compulsion. Many cannot.

You are confusing symptoms with feelings.

*So: Yes, I AM a horribly irresponsible person who has never tried to get out of my DP/DR. I am a disgrace to all humanity. I blame everything on my broken brain and I will never get better. You are GOD-LIKE to have overcome DP/DR which is really only an illusion.*

*Thank you Fearless for bringing this to my attention. I guess I should just lock myself in my closet and starve myself to death for being such a horrible person. I am SO sorry I have bothered you so much. I ask your forgiveness.*

Boy, am I procrastinating on finishing an article. Total waste of time. That I have control over. I have control over whether or not I let you bug me to death.

Fearless. I've got it. You bore me.

Goodnite.


----------



## Guest (Mar 1, 2013)

Fearless said:


> aha, so you say, that the scary thoughts in DP are symptoms, which you aren't responsible for?


AHA? You have been accusing me of this forever. And you know the answer. YES.

The rest below is obviously too long for you to read. Have you been to college? Have you ever read a book? You obviously have no patience to do so, to acquire a DEPTH of knowledge. YOU HAVE FREE WILL TO OPEN YOUR MIND.

----------------------------------------------------------

I did not CAUSE the symptoms. I had the symptoms of DP/DR when I was 4/5 years old -- as far back as I could remember -- AND IT WASN'T SCARY THEN. My POV is that because of constant abuse and chaos in my house (no love, my father left, my mother attacked me for everything, I was an only child with no extended family) -- I was living for years in constant fight/flight mode. I was anxious all the time and never knew it wasn't "normal." I feared loss and abandonment for years. That takes no toll? It wasn't until I was 30 that I finally realized I wasn't the crazy person in my family.

Also one tends to be born with a certain personality. I am more sensitive. There are many studies (on humans and animals -- including the great apes) that abues and neglect in early life literally changes the brain. But there is plasticity in the brain. HARD work can reverse some of these changes, but sadly you do not know individuals I know whose personalities at 2 are the same at 72. Individuals with both abuse or not abuse.

Just look up the studies of Harry Harlow's monkeys. They were neglected and failed to thrive. Then read of children in orphanages who are ignored. They fail to thrive, they don't develop language skills. There is a window of opportunity for acquiring language, for self-soothing. Why do you think it takes years of decent parenting to raise a child? And some children have brain disorders (exhibited since childhood) that cannot be fixed.

I believe DP/DR are a form of "glitch" in the brain -- circuitry, IDK. THE SYMPTOMS are not in my control. I can work on many of my behaviors, reactions, thuoghts. It could also be an epilepsy type reaction. IDK.

Do you honestly believe that someone with schizophrenia for example -- another type of brain disorder -- has control over their thoughts? They hear a voice telling them to kill the Pope. It is REAL to them. Some have insight. Many don't. They have no control. The have no Free Will. I have interacted with many such people and individuals such as myself.

You are simply very poorly informed.

We will never come to an agreement on this. Never.

So I am again, terribly sorry that many people here have not lived up to your expectations, including myself.

However, I feel no shame as I have accomplished A LOT in my life, despite this. The DP/DR may go away, but in my case I am not and HAVE not put my life on hold waiting for that to happen. I also know I have anxiety and depression which left untreated is extremely debiitating.

Can't look at your posts anymore.


----------



## Guest (Mar 1, 2013)

And there are plenty of people with brain disorders of all types who have an active spirtual life. This is why NAMI has incorporated FAITH NET. Spirituality is important for all experiencing some illness or disability. What a ridiculous thing to claim this isn't true. You obviously haven't been at the bedside of dying individuals. I have. Both of my parents, and quite a few others. And I meet with dying cancer patients at my meetings. Try it all on for size. Go out and live REAL life.


----------



## broken3309 (Oct 23, 2012)

By holding onto your problems and wearing them as a badge, you will ALWAYS have the problems.

You were abused...so was I. But it is OUR choice to live in the present moment right now and let go of these MEMORIES. They are not a reality.


----------



## broken3309 (Oct 23, 2012)

take ownership. quit being a victim. recognize all your problems are a manifestation of your thoughts.

it's easy to be a victim. it's easy to blame.

it's hard to take responsibility.


----------



## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

Fearless said:


> Both you and Dreamer are very good at talking so much that the reader forgets what was the debate about in the first place.


Humm ... the "debate" was about:



wise said:


> http://chriskresser.com/the-chemical-imbalance-myth


I do think that my posts stayed with the topic --- *Chemical Imbalance Myth*. I fail to see how spirituality and free will are closely tied to the topic



Fearless said:


> Please answer these simple questions: Do you believe that you have a FREE WILL to choose what you think about? Do you believe that you are responsible for your thoughts, actions and feelings?


The many posts I've made should have made this clear to the reader. But for the record, Yes and Yes. But I do acknowledge that some people suffer intrusive thoughts and feelings with serious 'out-of-control' issues. How does this relate to "chemical imbalance"?



Susto said:


> it doesn't, just the way you expose some facts and draw conclusions implying we are purely physical, it's just insufficient


The info supplied IS insufficient. It is a massive topic that differs from the thread. It is also a topic for personnal study. I suggested only a starting point for you - Gelhorn.

"For dust you are and to dust you will return", Gen 3:19 --- is that "spiritual" enough for you?



Susto said:


> How wouldn't it be? Brain is the organ through which we manifest our consciousness on earth, if it's damaged of course there will be psychological changes. And personality is not "spirit"


Supposition: "*Brain is the organ through which we manifest our consciousness on earth*"

Other words for supposition are: assumption, presumption, surmise, guess, conjecture, hypothesis, presupposition, speculation



Susto said:


> you, like dreamer, knows very little about spirituality


What would you know about my spirituality? We have never met and you don't even know my name. Seems like another "supposition".


----------



## branl (May 21, 2010)

chemical imbalance? Big business $$


----------



## branl (May 21, 2010)




----------



## Haumea (Jul 11, 2009)

The issue of free will is interesting.

*Our destinies are largely defined by our beliefs about reality.* Some of these beliefs are limiting and do not serve us. We frequently acquired them early on, through no fault of our own, and we can hold them for long stretches of our lives, or even our entire lives, until something awakens us to reconsider them.

This is a sort of meta exercise. Look over your life history. Have you ever changed your beliefs about something?

If yes, it is easy to imagine that some of the beliefs you still hold may be metaphorical shackles and are not serving you (or they generate secondary payoffs while making you unhappy or miserable on the whole.) I've certainly gone through many changes with respect to beliefs and am not done with them by any stretch of the imagination.

No matter how smart we are, we are frequently ignorant of the possibilities of life because of conditioning. In fact, we may become so ego-invested in certain ideas (which aren't helpful to us at all) that we ironically become our worst enemies! I know I've been guilty of this on many occasions. What I was doing was holding on to a reality structure that kept me secure even as it limited me greatly.

We have free will in the sense that we are capable of recursive consciousness.

We don't just think - we can go up a level and think about how we think. We can think about how we think how we think. Etc.

Thus, if we think that, e.g. we can't recover from DPD via endogenous means we can examine our general patterns of thinking - we can consider the possibility that our beliefs are limiting, we can consider that there's some insight that we're missing, instead of thinking we can observe our thoughts, consider that they may be erroneous - merely consider the possibility - and investigate the issue earnestly.

This is at the heart of free will, I believe. We can change our brains by overcoming our conditioned thoughts, by focusing consciousness in ways which transcend the cognitive level where we are stuck and liberating ourselves.

I think being ego-invested in the mind can be a serious issue as far as recovery from DP.

You can't think your way to a recovery from DP because your ego is saying "hey - I'm smart - I can really think and my ideas of what can cure DP must be right! Wait - wtf are those people saying? Their ideas do not agree with mine! Hey, I'm smarter than they are - they're wrong. I'm not listening to that noise."

I know I'm sometimes guilty of this and I observe how difficult it is to actually move myself when the ideas expressed for some reason do not neatly logically connect to my own. But I also know that I've been wrong before, so considering that I'm wrong now keeps hope alive for me.

Again, the ego-focused mind is a useless tool for dealing with DPD. It gets in the way. The more that we consider the painful possibility that it is wrong, the better off we are in the long run.


----------



## daydreambeliever (Jun 15, 2011)

At this point in the game of life, I have believed and quit believing so many things that I truly feel like I have lived different lives in this same life. I always consider the fact I am wrong because I have been wrong in almost everything I've thought of. I wonder how this is supposed to cure dpd? I used to be a Christian, I used to be an AA big book thumper, I used to be bipolar, I used to believe in SOM, I used to believe in god. I used to believe in spirits. I used to be a drug addict. I used to be an alcoholic. Core beliefs are hard to change. I used to be ashamed of myself. I was still dreaming through it all and I still am...

It's real painful at times to know that nothing I think of will matter. That's what I have come to believe for now. Other times it's not so bad. I have gained a lot by living so I am grateful for my frame of mind even if I am stranded somewhere where it's pretty lonely. I have life all around me all the time. I can participate in it and I feel like I am in the best dream I could be having. I'm not ashamed I haven't been able to function well in society any longer. I 'believe' I have a good life anyway.

Today is a better day. This winter has been real dark for me.


----------



## Haumea (Jul 11, 2009)

> I wonder how this is supposed to cure dpd?


The core belief at the center of the discussion is, ultimately, "can I cure DPD?" (More broadly, "can I change my life, for the better, in ways I can't imagine at the moment?")

Being open to that possibility - genuinely open - can be very difficult. But as I described, there's a process one can go through to get to that openness.


----------



## daydreambeliever (Jun 15, 2011)

And I am telling you, I've been there, done that. And so??? My life is better today because I have accepted that I have a condition called dpd, I live with daily, that doesn't go away, and there is no use in fighting it.


----------



## branl (May 21, 2010)

daydreambeliever holw did you get dp?

do you practice mindfulness


----------



## daydreambeliever (Jun 15, 2011)

branl said:


> daydreambeliever holw did you get dp?
> 
> do you practice mindfulness


I was either born this way or got it early after.

I do practice mindfulness. I learned to meditate when I was 12. My mother was into it. I have taken DBT courses 3 times and learned their idea of practicing mindfulness too, but I was already doing that. I think it helps me stay sane somewhat but...still dreaming... I just don't seem to be able to feel here. I am somewhere else too at all times.


----------

