# Klonopin



## Guest (Dec 19, 2005)

Im wondering if I should get off of Klonopin. Recently my father went to see his psychiatrist and told him that I was on Klonopin and told him about my depression/anxiety as well as DP/DR symptoms, And the doctor explained to my father that Klonopin can act as depressant and that it could be contributing to my depression. Honestly alot of the time I don't even know why I am depressed or something very minor i.e. going to work, Will make me depressed when it really shouldn't be doing that.

As I look back at what Klonopin has done, I realized the only thing that it has stopped is having panic attacks. I still have anxiety, DP/DR symptoms, Visual disturbances and Depression.

Im wondering if the Klonopin has contributed to the depression? I know Dakota Joe will say it has without any question, but what are some other peoples opinions? Im going to see a new psychiatrist in a few weeks and Im going to see if she thinks I should get off of it?

feedback is appreciated

Peace


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

i dont see why it would hurt to at least start slowly cutting back your dose just to see how it goes. that way you can find out if you really do need the drug anymore. perhaps you could try a mild antidepressant? wellbutrin did help lift my mood, without making me 'too' happy. it was quite mild and the effect was gradual. i found adderall good for that too but it was a little too noticably strong. thats kinda scary, plus its an amphetamine. effexor was wayyyy too powerful and sent me into a manic. i did all my crazy selfdestructive stuff while on the influence of effexor. if you do any antidepressants i would suggest starting at a very low dose and gradually increase. you dont want to notice any effects right away. if you do that probably means its too strong. even though it feels fantastic, the last thing you want is to go through drug induced mania.


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2005)

Wow, there seems to be alot of discussion on the Klono.

Of course a doctor can look at you and say "you should get off the Klonopin ya know..." but that's his perspective is not yours. Its your call whether he's making an objective opinion or not...I think not. I think its a personal opinion. Doctors are humans just like us and in many cases make stupid decisions. I've met docs who use a buckshot approach to perscribe meds (let's try this, then this, and if that doesn't work, how about this fancy new drug? Not working? How about this one that costs $147 per pill? etc.).

The question is, does it work? If it does, don't screw yourself up by getting off of it just b/c you think you should. If it doesn't work, that's another story. What I've heard from most ppl who take the stuff is that it works, maybe not 100%, but it gets you out of the bind you may be in.

I've weened myslef down to extremely low doses, often skipping it for days. But when the DP came back, I was taking more than I had before. So this sounds like an argument against myslef? It is. I have a struggle with this myself but I realized at this point I can't stop taking it or I'll simply loose the little bit of sanity I have left.

My 2?.

- Seth


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## Kelson12 (Aug 10, 2004)

SethEaston said:


> Wow, there seems to be alot of discussion on the Klono.
> 
> Of course a doctor can look at you and say "you should get off the Klonopin ya know..." but that's his perspective is not yours. Its your call whether he's making an objective opinion or not...I think not. I think its a personal opinion. Doctors are humans just like us and in many cases make stupid decisions. I've met docs who use a buckshot approach to perscribe meds (let's try this, then this, and if that doesn't work, how about this fancy new drug? Not working? How about this one that costs $147 per pill? etc.).
> 
> ...


But, the thing is there is no way of actually measuring if the meds are helping or not. There is no way for doctors to measure the level of chemicals in our brains and how the meds are effecting the chemicals. The only way is trial and error. Sure some docs may make stupid decisions, but really the only way of them helping is by giving their suggestions and recommendations and going from there. Unfortunently that is the only real way to go about stuff like this until they discover a better way to measure the chemicals in our brains.

That being said, I've tried multiple different meds and honestly hated them all. I was taking at least one type of med since Spring 2001. I just got off Zoloft for good about 1-2 weeks ago. I plan on staying med free for a long time. Honestly, I haven't felt as sleepy and feel a little more clear minded. I know there will be times where I feel like shit, but I am determined to get through this shit without meds.

Soul...you know I've said this to you before, but maybe you should get off meds completely, clear your mind for a bit and go from there. You've been on this Klonopin for a long time and it isn't really helping much. It may have helped your panic attacks, but you still have depression and other shit.

Just my 2 cents.


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Hi Soul,

Youre doctor is correct. Like alcohol, klonopin is a CNS DEPRESSANT and certainly does aggravate depression and will eventually aggravate anxiety. When you come off your body will go into rebound and all those excitatory nts that its inhibitied will go into overdrive. If you want your brain to work correctly get off the klonopin(and any other drugs) and give your brain some time to heal.

Joe


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2005)

I think it is certainly possible to get off the meds completely. After all, how we did we survive without them in the first place? Well we DID, but I remember quality of life just *sucking* before I found help with the Klono (first it was Xanax).

But medication is just a bandaid, isn't it? That's why we go to therapsist and whatever and try to find out what the problem REALLY is...if we can ever resolve it.

Right now my brain feels fried, foggy, clouded, distant. I don't know if its from the DP or from the meds. I know my brain used to feel much clearer before increasing my meds tho. This sucks.


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2005)

You could try typing 
*
benzodiazepines "adverse effects"*

into google.

I hope you figure this out .


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## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

yep, what Joe said, and I'm right there with you. Kolnopin can not only aggrevate pre-existing depression, after long term use it can _cause_ it by suppressing the production of Serotonin.

It never did a thing for me either, at least it helped stop your panic attacks. in my case it was the opposite, the last time I tried coming off of it, slow and easy all by the book, I had my first ever panic attack about 48 hours later. Right now I'm hanging at just 5mg of valium, too scared to make the jump, too depressed to _really_ care. Do it now cuz the longer you stay on this stuff the harder it is to come off.

peace,
ru


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## Dreamland (Jun 1, 2005)

Dakotajo is correct as far as the CNS depressant properties of benzos; same with alcohol. However, I take Ativan occasionally and have yet to get addicted or depressed because of it, so the question is why do you take Klonopin so often? I use benzos on an as need basis or as an alternative to a beer, but no more than once a month or so. You should never take benzodiazepines continuously for more than two weeks, because you can become dependant on them. To me, Klonopin and other benzos are all right as far as I'm concerned.....just use them on an as need basis.


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

I agree. Benzos should never be used on a daily basis. Actually most doctors have been warned that this class of drug should never be prescribed for longer than 2 weeks yet many wreckless,irresponsible doctors give their patients repeat prescriptions for months or even years. Their arguement is that they could never be addicted to such a small dose. The problem is Klonopin is EXTREMELY POTENT. 1 miserable mg is equal to 20mg of Valium.

Joe


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2005)

dakotajo said:


> I agree. Benzos should never be used on a daily basis. Actually most doctors have been warned that this class of drug should never be prescribed for longer than 2 weeks yet many wreckless,irresponsible doctors give their patients repeat prescriptions for months or even years. Their arguement is that they could never be addicted to such a small dose. The problem is Klonopin is EXTREMELY POTENT. 1 miserable mg is equal to 20mg of Valium.
> 
> Joe


The problem is doctors prescribe this for daily _management_ of anxiety. That is the case with my psychiatrist. I voiced my concerns about taking the Klono long-term and he said that the dose I am on (0.5 mg/day) is so small that it shouldn't pose a problem, that I could take this (get this now...) _indefinitely_. If only this were true. I find now that I must increase my dosage to 1 mg a day for me to feel normal. I don't know if that's psychological or physical dependence, but in my case I really don't care at this point because without it I would end up in the ER. I don't know how many ppl here are in this acute state of their lives, but I think that if I tried coming off the stuff now, my life would be ruined. Perhaps after I get over this damned rut I'm in, I could try.

I know of some ppl on 6mg of Klono a day (Dreamer I think)...so this is like taking 120 mg of Valium? Wouldn't that like KILL you?


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## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

Dreamland said:


> why do you take Klonopin so often?


Because everytime I told my psych that it wasn't working, his answer was it's cuz i needed to take *more*.

btw, CNS depressant just means a med that slows down the functions of your nerveous system & brain, it has no direct relation to the actual feeling of depression. many doctors argue that benzos don't at all interfere with any of the happy brain neurotransmitters, and the ones that say the opposite can't really explain why/how. it's all solid science. it comes down to the way this stuff makes you feel.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

SethEaston said:


> I know of some ppl on 6mg of Klono a day (Dreamer I think)...so this is like taking 120 mg of Valium? Wouldn't that like KILL you?


Dear Seth,
Everyone is different here. I am extremely anxious and have been my whole life, since a child. I have also never taken a rec drug save alcohol in my life.

In my case, MINE ONLY, I had gone through Ativan, Xanax, and Valium in the 1980s, trying ONLY to find relief from DP/DR -- chronic, completely debilitating. I had been really searching for help since age 12 or so. My mother was a shrink, knew what was wrong, and didn't tell me. She had many patients in the '60s and '70s w/DP. How do I know that? After her death I went through old patient files.

Ativan, Xanax, and Valium even at high doses did NOTHING for me. NOTHING. Nothing for the DP/DR, nothing for my anxiety. In 1987 a doctor who is an expert in Dissociation/DP gave me Klonopin. We pushed it to 8mg. It was a tad high, made me tired, and it was only after about 6 weeks did I feel ANYTHING. But suddenly the DP/DR began to lift. The first drug in my entire life that made a difference.

We pulled back to 6mg. I have been on that since 1987. I have never needed to increase it. Decreasing it brought on my old DP/DR. That was unbearable to me. IN MY CASE, the doctor NEVER was concerned about addiction. I am not an addictive personality and he considered my ability to use the other benzos, go off of them with no reaction whatsoever, etc.

The other benzos were like taking sugar pills.

Also, it was/and still is considered an anti-convulsant. And yes it is a benzo. The PDR, indicates that in seizure patients, the maximum dose is 20mg. I once went on an epilepsy board and asked about it. Some had been on high doses, but had switched to more advanced anti-seizure medication. Seizure meds "poop out" on many and they keep switching.

This is the case with a friend of mine who's had epilepsy starting at 40 and is now pushing 60.

My goal:

1. I have gone off of my nortriptyline. Very interesting after a VERY slow taper, my suicidal thoughts are gone. Pamelor was the brand name.

2. Next step, slow reduction of Klonopin to see what happens now, since I'm on Lamictal. VERY slow taper, probably a year or more down about 2mg.

3. Slow taper of Celexa from 40mg down again to whatever is tolerable.

4. Lamictal 200mg ... start to raise that again ... as it has also been effective.

My psychopharmacologist in L.A. hoped I could be on only Lamictal. I have Mood Dysregulation (Borderline traits) that were helped immensely by the Lamictal, as well as less fear of the DP/DR so I have been to apply DBT and CBT. This year I have felt the best ever. Yes, at age 47.

I'm still limited. No cure. I don't really ever expect one as this has been chronic really my whole life. THAT'S JUST MY CASE.

All the medication I'm on, yes would knock some people out. *But my metabolism and particular illness is different from others here obviously. WE ARE ALL UNIQUE. And I have made the decision to go with the meds I am on. No one forced me to do this.*

Example of a different metabolism. Anyone here given an injection of Haldol would probably sleep for 5 days. A schizophrenic can tolerate large amounts, injections and still be out of control. Just one example.

I cannot tolerate Wellbutrin for instance and it has helped others. I had a horrible DP/DR attack on that at 250mg. I thought THAT was the end of me. My doctor told me to drop it cold turkey which I did. I started feeling better in about a week.

*It is an individual choice. I am not pushing this on anyone. I know the risks. No doctor has ever been concerned about MY taking these drugs. I tolerate them very well. And as I said, I had NO reaction, NONE to Klonopin until I hit 8mg. Then we pulled back to see what would happen.

I have never needed to increase or change that does which I take NOT as needed, but on a schedule of 2 x 2 x 2 every day. I'm doing fine.

WE ARE ALL UNIQUE, WE ARE ALL UNIQUE, WE ARE ALL UNIQUE.*

And as Joe says, I'm a junkie. I'm not the only person here on Klonopin and even 3 other meds. But he calls me a junkie. So be it.

Why he is so concerned about me I have no clue.

End of lecture. 8) 
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

P.S. to SoulBrotha

I agree that you should try to very slowly discontinue Klonopin if you feel it is not helping you or making you worse.

Also if you feel you're getting worse DP wise, still give it a chance. I remember Andy -- director of the old Board had trouble going off of it -- however he kept trying and would cut it down to nearly a powder and got off of it.

I don't now how he's doing now.

I have found FOR MYSELF seeing as there is no specific treatment for DP that if one wishes to experiment with meds, if the symptoms are destroying any quality of life, try different things. Also engage in as much healthy behavior otherwise as possible. Eliminate all variables.

Don't go off of more than one med at a time unless one is really killing you with horrible symptoms. You need to see what is helping and what isn't. Also, combos can work better than one med.

My doctor in L.A. -- Professor at UCLA -- whom I recommend to anyone for an evaluation:

David Fogelson, M.D.

I get this wrong all the time, I'll double check:

http://www.davidfogelson.com

There ARE good doctors out there. Oh, I get yearly bloodwork for my drug levels especially liver tests for the Lamictal. Fine. If they weren't fine, I'd lower my meds. I'd have to live with that.

Best,
D


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2005)

dakotajo said:


> I agree. Benzos should never be used on a daily basis. Actually most doctors have been warned that this class of drug should never be prescribed for longer than 2 weeks


That is exactly how long I was on a benzo and I knew at that point that unless I stopped immediately I would be trapped.

SoulB, you could also do a cross search on Neal's posts on this subject. He is "in absentia" presently so I don't think you can contact him .


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Dreamer

I guess I just think its so ironic that you are CONSTANTLY posting(half bragging) that youve never touched a rec drug or barely use alcohol. Yet you daily intoxicate yourself with a massive dose of a powerfully addicting tranquilizer. I know you try to justify it by saying its -an "anti-convulsant" or its a "medication", but sugarcoat it all you want, the fact is its a very powerful, destructive, addictive drug.

Joe


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Dear SethEaston,

Doctors shouldnt ever use a benzo for daily anxiety management. In my opinion doctors that do are very irresponsible. These drugs are well known to be tolerance producing(cause physical compensatory changes). The longer you take them the higher the dose you will need to recieve an effect. Eventually they will have no effect and you will need to take them to keep the withdrawal at bay. This is the basis of their addictive qualityand the reason they have a severe withdrawal syndrome.

Also. serotonin is the chemical thought by todays "experts" to be one of the main culprits behind depression and anxiety. Benzos slow the output of serotonin and actually aggravate these conditions.

Joe


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## jft (Jan 10, 2005)

It always makes me wonder when some here (most?) say that dr/dp is total anxiety related, causal and perpetuated, but yet they do not advocate (or at least allow) for anxiolytics as a potential help.. Granted the dependency issues are very real for some (they never were for me and I took them for years daily) but if anxiety were to be the prime suspect then attacking it with whatever you have (that is practical for you personally) seems an effective course of action. This is one reason why I question the total anxiety connection, 
for
I did just that for many years using every method available. I got anxiety reduction and increased sense of well being, but no reduction in dp/dr. Out of all the differing therapies (cbt, ret etc), diets, excercise, philosophies, lifestyle changes, supplements, vitamins, and most medications, xanax was the most effective, at least taking the edge off when I was most miserable. I always had the dr/dp, but the xanax made it more tolerable. I use it sparingly now on an as needed basis. I admit was glad when I decided to get off of it as a daily dose and do it this way (on an as needed basis) but I for one would never dissuade anyone who really felt the personal need to take a benzo daily to function when the alternatives are not working for them. It is not a perfect world, and certainly what we are dealing with isn't either. 
jft


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## Dreamland (Jun 1, 2005)

I agree with dakotajo........doctors who prescribe benzos for more than two weeks need to have their own head examined. Benzos work by binding to GABA receptors in your brain, thereby reducing anxiety and at high doses it can work as a sedative or muscle relaxer. Taking benzos long term WILL change your brain chemistry and can lead to severe withdrawal symptoms, and there have been people requiring hospitalization due to convulsions brought on by benzo withdrawal. Be careful with these drugs! I love them put I treat them with the utmost respect.........


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2005)

After all of this Im very confused

 :?


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2005)

littlecrocodile said:


> dakotajo said:
> 
> 
> > I agree. Benzos should never be used on a daily basis. Actually most doctors have been warned that this class of drug should never be prescribed for longer than 2 weeks
> ...


I assume your talking about Pure Narcotic? whats " absentia"

huh????????


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## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

Dear Joe, 
you know I hate benzos as much as you do, and mostly agree with everything you say. but if you're going to point out what someone does "constantly" on this board, I can't help but notice that you're constantly ignoring certain facts. Not everyone has to increase their benzo dosage. Not everyone gets addicted to benzos. You made a choice to cold turkey off your benzo, inviting ugly withdrawal symptoms that we've all been warned about. peopel come off this stuff every day without a problem. Most if not all people on here who are very anti-benzos didn't taper like they were supposed to, Neal included. If I'd done a valium taper like it's recommended _maybe_ I would've never had a panic attack.

We're not all the same.

peace 8) 
rula

Soul, it's Akathisia, the inability to sit still.


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## jft (Jan 10, 2005)

Soul Brother. You and I both concerning the confusion. My thought on this is how could we not be confused at times when the whole world seems to have their own opinion as well as their own personal experiences? I feel discussions on dp/dr by very informed (but still) amateurs like all of us (fellow sufferers) will always lead to some confusion. It is maybe like pre Columbus (1492) discussions by so many with limited understanding of the world (not stupid, just that the knowledge was not yet fully available) as to whether the world is flat or not. Until the medical community comes out with definitve understanding and effective treatment we will always be in this "boat". The sad thing is that we do not need this confusion. We need answers. Some here luckily, and by hard work, have found personal answers but these things will not work for all. What works for one may even harm another. The good thing is that we are all trying in our own way, making do with what knowledge we have, listening to others experience and suggestions but always tailoring them to ourselves. It is all we can do. I respect all thoughts from the folks on this board. I jsut long for the day when the medical folks say "thanks to you all for all the input, thanks to you we understand more and here is what seems to work best for most people". And when a question like "should I go off of klonopin comes up" as was the original question of this thread asked by you, then it will be much easier to ascertain, I hope, and pray. 
jft


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

dakotajo said:


> Dreamer
> 
> I guess I just think its so ironic that you are CONSTANTLY posting(half bragging) that youve never touched a rec drug or barely use alcohol. Yet you daily intoxicate yourself with a massive dose of a powerfully addicting tranquilizer. I know you try to justify it by saying its -an "anti-convulsant" or its a "medication", but sugarcoat it all you want, the fact is its a very powerful, destructive, addictive drug.
> 
> Joe


Joe, you are CONSTANTLY posting (with tremendous arrogance) that you are CERTAIN how people can get better from this illness -- your way ONLY. What they should do and not do in terms of meds. I have NEVER told anyone what med to take, or not. You might as well claim to be an M.D. Or actually you come off not stating you have a cure for DP, you claim essentially that it doesn't exists. Your word is Gospel.

Joe, you are entitled to your opinions -- everyone here is. I am only repeating *my experience and my POV from that experience and my own research*. Making my story clear. I am not "bragging." Where in God's name do you get that now? I can't drink. It makes my DP worse, immediately -- a different experience from many here. I couldn't smoke as a kid I had asthma -- fortunately that kept me from pot and cigarettes.

I have never taken any rec drug as I have been terrified they would make my DP/DR worse.

I also emphasize I am of the non-drug category, simply for clarificiation of my experience.

Everyone here should have their two cents, but my story seems to be either too depressing to others, not encouraging enough, etc., etc., even though I'm expressing my individual experience.

I have no idea, none, why you have latched onto me as the poster child for Rx drug addiction when others here have been through the same mess I've been. Who take as many meds as I do, and the same ones at high doses.

I don't want to be on ANY drug. And I started with this, in a different generation, long before you did. You never seem to take my options into consideration. You weren't even born into the psychiatric climate I was wading through. There was no internet. There was no one to share this with.

I also don't care to be the topic of discussion either.

It is as though I am not allowed to post here. I'm fucking sick of that. That I can't express my experience here. And God forbid I should express my fears or my bad days. I'm supposed to only be encouraging.

Go to Hell, Joe. You're really the only person on the Board I've ever felt like saying that to.

And Hell will freeze over before you find any sense of empathy for any human being. You really don't know how much you hurt me here. You really can kill any of my optimism. Thanks a load for that. I'm sure you're more than pleased with yourself for that, and I have no clue why. None.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

jft said:


> Soul Brother. You and I both concerning the confusion. My thought on this is how could we not be confused at times when the whole world seems to have their own opinion as well as their own personal experiences? I feel discussions on dp/dr by very informed (but still) amateurs like all of us (fellow sufferers) will always lead to some confusion. It is maybe like pre Columbus (1492) discussions by so many with limited understanding of the world (not stupid, just that the knowledge was not yet fully available) as to whether the world is flat or not. Until the medical community comes out with definitve understanding and effective treatment we will always be in this "boat". The sad thing is that we do not need this confusion. We need answers. Some here luckily, and by hard work, have found personal answers but these things will not work for all. What works for one may even harm another. The good thing is that we are all trying in our own way, making do with what knowledge we have, listening to others experience and suggestions but always tailoring them to ourselves. It is all we can do. I respect all thoughts from the folks on this board. I jsut long for the day when the medical folks say "thanks to you all for all the input, thanks to you we understand more and here is what seems to work best for most people". And when a question like "should I go off of klonopin comes up" as was the original question of this thread asked by you, then it will be much easier to ascertain, I hope, and pray.
> jft


JFT,
Amen and even though I'm not a religious woman, God Bless you for your intelligence on the topic.


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

Well, well, well...cut and paste, cut and paste. I only had time to read this entire thread and comment. I agree and disagree with a little of everyone but don't have time to quote all of it.

SoulBrotha, dude :wink: , this disorder is hell and fighting your way thru it is even worse... as you know. Every damn one of us have been living with it, *each in our own way*. And every damn one of us will find a point of either co-existing with it or overcoming it, *each in our own way.* This is still the best place on the web to come and get some opinions and then decide, with your doctor and family and maybe just by yourself, what is best *for you*.

To all who have said they have found meds not to work for them and/or fear the addictive factors... *I respect that.* To all who have found that meds work for them...*I respect that.* But to those...DJ, (even though we agree so totally on Bush ( the bastard )), that cannot let these conversations take place without making some of us feel like dopeheads...
*that, that, that I think is unfair * and would hope there could be some way you could voice your opinion without getting so raw about it. I'm seriously asking, is that too hard ? I mean, I get this :roll: going everytime I see the word Klonopin used because I *know* what it is going to come down to.

And I must admit I do not like to see it end up with Dreamer taking the heat for the rest of us. Next time you can use me. I have taken 1.5 mgs of Klonopin for many years now, same dose. Oh yeah, and I didn't get dr from rec drug use. Plus, I'm a crazy old bean. Use me next. But do include that I have managed to raise a child to 29 years old, keep a house for 15 years while my husband traveled, attended business meetings for him with over 600 people, smiled, attended the dinners, spent the days with the wives who were not dr'd out of their heads, sat thru college graduation, held bridesmaids luncheons and put on a wedding, let a neighbor who had been hit by a drunk driver and all but crippled by it live with me for 6 months and take care of her, traveled 400 miles back and forth between state to state to take care of elderly parents 5,6,7 times a year, attended a funeral for a friend whose 18 year old daughter commited suicide, attended same friend's funeral one year later, dealt with my husband having serious health issues, watched a granddaughter being born and kept her until my own physical health issues prevented it and even managed to put up a damn Christmas tree this year *all the while being "high" on the god-forsaken Klonopoision !!!*

So, if we can, can we work out some way to get past this issue the next go round by remaining sympathetic to each and everyone's way of dealing with this? I'm not saying not to make the point, that I most certainly agree with, that this drug is not to be taken lightly and if you can get by without it, that could be a good thing. But in the meantime, let's just not all come down so hard on each other.

I'm not trying to offend anyone. I just want us to be able to reach some kind of resolution for once and for all.

If we can't have peace on earth, can we have peace on dpselfhelp? 

Love,
t*


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2005)

as usual, good post Terri


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2005)

Dreamer -
Thanks for the lecture. I'm not sure if you were pissed or what (it was quite a rant). I am fully aware we are all unique. Of course I was exaggerating when I said 120 mg of valium would kill you - the LD50 is like 400 mg/kg or whatever.

Listen, I wish the best to you and hope you find some inner peace and relief from this horrid condition. But you know, it is people like you that make me want to withdraw myslef from the board. The long rants and caustic comments with bold and capital letters are the equivelant of yelling and some others have actually cursed at me (not you though). That's pretty intimidating, given that I never meant a lick of malice. In real life I would probably yell back, but here I thought I'd have a different attitude. It also makes it look like I'm a 'junior' member and that my comments don't have much meaning. I'm sorry I don't have 16,982 posts or my title is not Senior Memeber - I think if that were true, you might not have 'lectured' me.

- Seth

P.S. to SoulBrotha: I apologize for using your topic as a forum of defense. I didn't mean for this to turn into a flame war. I completely agree with terri* - what works for is what works for you. We all struggle on this seemingly endless journey in our own ways.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

SethEaston said:
 

> Dreamer -
> Thanks for the lecture. I'm not sure if you were pissed or what (it was quite a rant). I am fully aware we are all unique. Of course I was exaggerating when I said 120 mg of valium would kill you - the LD50 is like 400 mg/kg or whatever.
> 
> Listen, I wish the best to you and hope you find some inner peace and relief from this horrid condition. But you know, it is people like you that make me want to withdraw myslef from the board. The long rants and caustic comments with bold and capital letters are the equivelant of yelling and some others have actually cursed at me (not you though). That's pretty intimidating, given that I never meant a lick of malice. In real life I would probably yell back, but here I thought I'd have a different attitude. It also makes it look like I'm a 'junior' member and that my comments don't have much meaning. I'm sorry I don't have 16,982 posts or my title is not Senior Memeber - I think if that were true, you might not have 'lectured' me.
> ...


Dear Seth,
I'm sorry, I am again humiliated. My rant was directed specifically at Dakota Joe who has called me a junkie more times than I care to discuss. Also, I have a lot of posts in part because I've been a part of the board a long time, but a good many of them are on the fun part of the board "That's Life." I have also been a Moderator for a long time and chose to stop doing that. That requires posting a lot of stuff.

I should never respond to Joe again. I have said that 5 million times. He hurts me terribly, and that is indeed my problem.

I've also been known, by everyone I know, to ramble on, to want so much to be validated and understood. That is also my problem. When I hightlight it is yes, sometimes in anger or frustration, but to guide someone to my key points as I ramble.

I really apologize. I'm just feeling very hurt.

I like rainboteers' signature. It applies to me, to how I feel right now.

"Never apologize for showing feeling. When you do so you apologize for truth." - Benjamin Disraeli

I am showing my hurt, my sadness, my frustration. I am angry at this illness. I don't usually say that a lot here. I feel very badly that you feel I'm someone that makes you feel unwelcome. I feel even worse.

Joe really makes ME feel unwelcome, unable to express my own experience. My anger is indeed directed at him. The bulk of what I have expressed here recently. A lot of the rest is pure rage at another year fighting this. Yes, I'm feeling sorry for myself. I feel I'm not entitled to that.

I'm sorry.
I really am.
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Terri,
As always, I appreciate your post. You are far more mature than I am... not a COB, but emotionally mature.

I know that.

Very Best,
D


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

i took a benzo so i could read this more clearly


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2005)

I don't think there's any real need for everyone to agree on this topic. I could be wrong, you could be wrong, so what? It's all about the individual's decision. I do not look down on people for taking meds, but if a person wants to know my opinion on meds, I'll tell them. Yes, I'm anti-med, based on my own horrible experiences with them and the experiences of those I care about deeply, but for all I know I'm making the dumbest move in the universe by forgoing klonopin and company. But, it's my decision, using the faculties and information to which I have to access.

SoulB asked for opinions. This is his choice... he should do his own reading and gather as many opinions as he can and come to his own conclusion. That he listen to his own body, mind, instinct, feelings, and intellect is what's important. Our feelings, whether hurt or intact, are an aside at best.


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## terri* (Aug 17, 2004)

P3...you crack me up. :lol: Classic one-liner. Perfect timing.

Dreamer...Oh yeah, I'm so mature I just ripened and fell of the limb
I was sitting on with Shirley McLaine. :wink:

LC...exactly.

Okay, I'm off the thread.

t*


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## Kelson12 (Aug 10, 2004)

terri* said:


> Well, well, well...cut and paste, cut and paste. I only had time to read this entire thread and comment. I agree and disagree with a little of everyone but don't have time to quote all of it.
> 
> SoulBrotha, dude :wink: , this disorder is hell and fighting your way thru it is even worse... as you know. Every damn one of us have been living with it, *each in our own way*. And every damn one of us will find a point of either co-existing with it or overcoming it, *each in our own way.* This is still the best place on the web to come and get some opinions and then decide, with your doctor and family and maybe just by yourself, what is best *for you*.
> 
> ...


Damn good post Terri...it is human nature to be opinionated and some are way more than others. My boss is not only opinionated, but he tries to force his opinions and viewpoints on you and is so damn annoying. But being that this is a mental health forum we all need to be sensitive to one an another. The majority of us on here are more sensitive than most people. We take things personally and tend to overanalyze everything. So we all need to be careful as to how we word things and how we come across. One person's experience with a med may not necessarily apply to someone else. One thing might work for someone that had no effect on another person. That's what makes this mental shit so hard. It's different in each and every person. We can share our stories, our successes, our failures, our thoughts, our feelings, but the bottom line is that it is different in each and every person. Klonopin may help for one person, but may make someone else go totally crazy. Zoloft may help someone's depression, but may have zero effect on another person. Coming to this forum may be helpful for some people, whereas it may hinder others and cause them to dwell more and more on their feelings. It is all about you as an individual. Each individual person needs to figure out what is best for him/her. Sure, advice from others on here certainly can help. We all experience somewhat similar feelings, but we can't just take what others say to do and run with it. We need to discover ourselves and what is best for us. We have to dig deep down and find out the underlying
issue(s) that are causing are mental problems. If meds help you deal, great. If not, then don't mess with them. 
It's all about "YOU". Figure out "YOU".

Kelson


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Dear Soulbro, 
Yes, klonopin can indeed cause depression, according to the literature. Whether it is in your case, I just dont know. Your on such an infinitismally small dose...but you may have an incredibly sensitive nervous system too. I'd blame it on your Abilify first, because antipsychotics purposely block the "happy" neurotransmitters (as I beleive rula called them 8) ) and it too is considered a depressant. Honestly, I'm more worried about the fact that all you've really stuck to after a year and a half of DR is Klonopin. In a way I think its wise, but I think you need to reevaluate your approach if nothing is working. Honestly, I'd still like to see you try Lamictal because its also an antidepressant. I doubt with your sensitivity that it would have to get to 200mg, either. I expect something along the lines of 125-150 mg might work for you. I'd recommend an antidepressant, but I think that in the end they might compromise your reason (as with Sleepy and Effexor) or it could make your DR worse (as with me) or it could cause a violent worsening (as with Dreamer and Wellbutrin). I'd take a real middle of the road approach, get *off* the antipsychotic, keep the Klono, and try Lamictal. If it helps with DR and depression (and getting of the Abilify will help with depression) then you can taper the klono. Then eat right, stay social, and exercise. You might want to try a therapy designed specifically to control panic attacks, such as breathing techniques, in combination with what you already do. You have an excellent chance of pulling through this, Soul. Use your head, and follow your heart by pursuing your dreams.Good luck man!

Peace
Homeskooled


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## bat (Aug 18, 2004)

i took a benzo (oxazepam) as needed for a few weeks when i was starting zoloft. i am glad to hear that it's recognised as causing depression as, although it eased anxiety, it sank me into some despairing states (usually about 45 mins after taking it). i found it a harsh drug but thought it was just my own, oversensitive, reaction to meds.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Without wanting to sign up to the sweeping generalisation brigade, I really don't care if I have to spend the rest of my miserable life on Klonopin, or any benzodiazepine. I really don't. At 34 years old and a rapidly decaying body, what I'm after is quality of life. And in Klonopin eases my contant anxiety and enables me to function something like a human being, then sod it, I don't give a damn. In fact, I'm eagerly looking forward to addiction (still hasn't happened, I haven't taken any for about a month and I'm not a shaking wreck - I've had FAR more trouble with SSRI'S) as it might take my mind off other things.

I'm not belittling the addiction potential of these , not at all (despite what I've just said), but if you've tried everything else (including therapy etc etc) then who cares? What's the alternative? ? Na, I'm too selfish.

Life is too short.


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Thats poor advice to give to the scared, vulnerable people that frequent this board. Some people do give a shit about their future.


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

soulbrotha, maybe this will help. after i read that post you made about excersize, after a year of zero excersize, i got up and walked a mile. its been what, 2 weeks since that post? and im now running 4 miles. tonight im going to push it to 4 and an 8th. even though your post was a cry for help in your own situation, it inspired me to do something about my situation. regardless what the problem is, there is always a way. you will get better as long as you can see the light at the end of the tunnel. cause its always there, you just have to open your eyes to see it. meds or no meds, you can get better as long as you dont give up the hope that you will.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2005)

good post SB, thanks for the encouragement and Im glad my other post inspired you to run and what not.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

People take Klonopin because they are scared and vunerable Joe. Do you blame them ?

If you had a life threatening illness (mental or physical), would you begrudge someone taking benzos (sensibly) for the rest of their life, just so that they had some minor quality of life. What's the alternative, once you've tried everything else? A life-time of pointless, 'haven't got a clue what's wrong with you', and misdiagnosis ?

For those of us lucky enough, like yourself, to lead a normal life without resorting to these terrible , then great. But others are not so unfortunate and, despite your black and white thinking with regards to these matters (like mine regarding religion), it's not as simple as that. Addiction is not inevitable is you use them sensible. Not everyone has withdrawal symptoms. How many times do people on this board have to tell you think before it sinks in?

You can post links to http://www.benzohell.com as much as you like, we all know the dangers, but there are far more terrible temptations out there. Alcohol is the most terrible in the world, closely followed by nicotine, and I've been told by countless doctors (not just the irresponsible ones you seem to seek out) that they would rather someone be on a course of benzo's and perhaps some therapy than drink themselves into a stupor.

You make sweeping generalisations about the seemingky harmless wonders of SSRI's, but the truth is very, very different. Try and get a little perspective for those whose lifes are utter hell.

Your anger regards benzos is justified, because you have had a terrible experience with it. My anger with religion is justified because I have had terrible experiences with it. But that does seem that, on the whole, they are bad things.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2005)

When I stand back and look at the overall gist of this thread, I see one thing:
everyone with the same disorders all trying to help themselves and each other. If some people declare their positions more vigorously than others, it's probably because they really want the others to consider what helped them.
It's all good, it's all gold.....


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Martin,

Yes, and these same scared and vulnerable people that take benzos will have addiction to deal with along with their mental issues. When they come off these drugs they will have worsened rebound anxiety plus painful withdrawal symptoms to deal with. I do not believe there is place for these drugs.

For many people benzos can cause physical addiction in as little as 2 weeks. Withdrawal from these drug can be life threatening(seizures, blood pressure) Would you recommend heroin or ectasy to anxious people? Both of these drugs are anxiolytics? The psychiatric community pushed our government to allow them to used ectasy to "treat" PTSD. We now know ectasy causes addiction/ brain damage.

Benzos were originally marketed as "safe without the possibility of addiction". I believe if they knew then what we know about this class of drug, it would have never have been permitted to treat anxiety. Problem is there are now so many people worldwide dependent on these drugs that theres nothing they can do but continue to feed these addictions.

Joe


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## Kelson12 (Aug 10, 2004)

Does anyone know anything about increased anxiety/depression/DP after coming off Zoloft? I've been off of it now for about a month. I tapered slowly with the help of my psychiatrist, but over the last week I have been having one of, if not THE, worst time with anxiety, depression, and DP. Anyone have any thoughts on this? I really don't want to get back on meds. But right now I feel so horrible, that I fear I may have to get back on them. Any thoughts are welcome. Thanks.

Kelson


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## Kelson12 (Aug 10, 2004)

Does anyone know anything about increased anxiety/depression/DP after coming off Zoloft? I've been off of it now for about a month. I tapered slowly with the help of my psychiatrist, but over the last week I have been having one of, if not THE, worst time with anxiety, depression, and DP. Anyone have any thoughts on this? I really don't want to get back on meds. But right now I feel so horrible, that I fear I may have to get back on them. And no, I'm not on any meds. The only one I've been on is Zoloft over the last 6-8 months. Any thoughts are welcome. Thanks.

Kelson


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Hi,

There are alot of theories on the ssri withdrawal syndrome. It seems there is a deficit of serotonin when you come off these drugs. Any time you manipulate the brain it takes time to get back to balance. Unfortunately there is always a price to pay when we try to take short cuts. Hang on, in time you will feel better.

Joe


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## Kelson12 (Aug 10, 2004)

Thanks Joe...I guess Imma ride it out a bit longer and see if I get better and start feelin better. I hope it is just my brain trying to readjust, but I'm not sure. I've just never felt this disconnected before. I've been wanting to try to go at this without meds and while staying away from alchol. I have taken care of the no meds part and haven't drank in a couple weeks, so I am determined to stay on that path as well. I just want to feel normal and learn to enjoy life.

Kelson


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Dear Kelson, 
Just a thought. I think you said you already take B-vitamins, but if you dont, try taking some to replenish your serotonin stores.

peace
Homeskooled


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Joe - I'm sure you're glad I'm not going to argue with you anymore. I'm not 'pushing' benzo's. I know people abuse them. I know some people get addicted. I am not denying this. Alcohol is by far the worst drug in the world, but I don't hear you raging about that, and I'd bet you've had a stinking hangover.

No, I wouldn't push Heroin on someone. But then again, if their life was utter hell and a monitored dose of benzos's helped them live a happy life (impossible for you to believe, I know), then so be it.

Read my post about the Non-Drug DR segregation post. Do you think I should stop taking Klonopin and fall back into hell.

I accept my thinking is black and white regarding religion. Yet I know that it helps a great deal of people. What's your problem? It's not hard to admit that there are two sides to the story.


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