# Dissociation & The Soul/Spirit



## Guest (Apr 2, 2010)

Does being dissociated from your body prove to you personally the existence of a Soul/Spirit?


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## Minerva8979 (Jan 30, 2010)

"Prove"...lol. Well I've heard people with DPD say they don't believe in souls, or are at least ambiguous, but the feeling of depersonalization feels like the utter absense of self, thus...soul? I already believed in souls. But if I didn't, I could also be just as satisfied equating the DP with loss of sense of self. It feels the same way.

Funny, I don't feel like I've lost my soul so much as I've been split into two. My personality hasnt changed, but I do, most of the time, feel disconnected from the personality I've always had. Like there's TWO souls in my body. But then it does fluctuate. *sigh*


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## m&m (Mar 8, 2010)

I don't feel the need to compare my experience with DP/DR with my belief in the soul/spirit.

DP/DR is a physical problem within the brain. 
If you believe the soul/spirit survives death of the physical body, do you believe the DP/DR goes with the soul/spirit or the physical brain?

I can see it would be tempting to associate OBE experiences to the soul/spirit, but even during OBE we still control our bodies even if it doesn't seem so.

What we think of as our conscious mind does not operate fast enough to handle the vast information we receive. I don't think any pianist consciously think every note he plays. I give this example because I OBE'd while play a piano (my mistake I had stop practicing and went in cold). I had never memorized the music I was playing, alway site read, yet still played while the only thought I had was what was wrong with me. From outside appearances it would have looked normal, but I did not feel I was consciously in control. The hands moving across the keyboard did not feel like mine. I felt I was just an observer from behind, yet seeing through my eyes.

My point is: who we think we are is not just in the conscious mind, but in the whole brain (and maybe the whole body). 
Life happens too fast to think out everything.

Some have likened the brain to a computer, but it is more likely a vast array of computers working together. Communication is essential.
A breakdown between two parts of the brain has been identified as the source of DP/DR.


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## flipwilson (Aug 19, 2006)

ThoughtOnFire said:


> Does being dissociated from your body prove to you personally the existence of a Soul/Spirit?


Actually it did the opposite for me. I was a born again Christian before this and I feel DP helped me shed those unhealthy beliefs. It helped me see through all the contradiction and hypocrisy that religion breeds. The fact that you can go in and out of this state, the fact that it can be triggered by chemicals, proves to me that you are an organic machine that can go haywire. I don't really try to define 'soul' any longer, I just know that the ego or the self(personality) does exist, but these exist somewhere in the brain and are therefore subject to damage just as any other part. Do sufferers of Alzheimers or Dementia lose there soul? Did Phineas Gage lose his soul? http://scienceblogs.com/neurophilosophy/2007/07/the_incredible_case_of_phineas.php I guess this answer changes based on how you define the soul but for how I assume most people think of it I don't believe we really have one.


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## m&m (Mar 8, 2010)

flipwilson said:


> I don't really try to define 'soul' any longer,


Christianity has certainly made a mess of basic beliefs. most of the conflict seems related to adoption of Greek and other religious beliefs.


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## Astrid (Mar 27, 2010)

I would think it proves nothing, in that DP is often seen as a physical/brain-based condition. My experiences with detachment from my body do cause me to believe even more than I did before in the mental nature of the outside world: it simply isn't the same (to you) when you feel differently about it. But then again I was a philosophical Idealist all along (don't know which came firs tmy bodily unreality or my philosophical Idealism).


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2010)

Interesting responses,

Lots of different opinions too. For me I was raised an Atheist before DP and when I became DP (at 16) I started to look into Eastern Faiths like Taoism and Zen Buddhism. Then I looked into New Age paths like Eckhart Tolle etc. Now I'm pretty much Ecclectic of all the things I've looked into. I do believe in God. And I do believe in a Consciousness that is Reincarnated as well as Soul and Spirit. Everyone is different I guess.


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## coeus (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't think that dissociation from the body infers that there is the existence of a soul/spirit. Firstly, from my limited understanding of dissociation - this is typically regarded as a distortion to one's consciousness or sense thereof. The problem, for me, is that dissociation is relative to every person's physical and psychological composition so to definitively pinpoint a disrupted sense of consciousness that, in turn, can lead to the conclusion of a soul/spirit existing is certainly muddled up by each person's different experience(s). Secondly, although there is somewhat a shaky traditional definition of the soul/spirit, an interpretation of it still varies from one person to the other. Therefore, an issue of semantics needs to be resolved before we can potentially deduce if a soul/spirit exists by the mere experience of dissociation or else, equivocation may occur.

However - personally, I don't think dissociation resembles an ounce of a soul/spirit. I believe in solipsism that there is only one mind operating, which is ours. Yet, through psychological progression and experiences, this changes our self-conception. In fact, to believe if there is a soul or spirit is simply a disguise for a reference to _personal identity_. I like to think about it in terms of movie frames. Each specific frame you can recall (based on memory) is an identification of "me". There is never a static "you" or "me" - it is an endless, fickle, responsive identity that keeps changing. The implication here is that it is too easily often to associate a change in personal identity with an apparent differentiation of a stream of consciousness or soul/spirit?

I read a few pages from Eckhart Tolle's book and instantly put the book down. To be frank, I find his teachings self-destructive. I can't find any reason to believe in a soul or spirit - the burden of proof is too much to handle. I'm fine not knowing. Interesting thoughts though.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2010)

coeus said:


> I don't think that dissociation from the body infers that there is the existence of a soul/spirit. Firstly, from my limited understanding of dissociation - this is typically regarded as a distortion to one's consciousness or sense thereof. The problem, for me, is that dissociation is relative to every person's physical and psychological composition so to definitively pinpoint a disrupted sense of consciousness that, in turn, can lead to the conclusion of a soul/spirit existing is certainly muddled up by each person's different experience(s). Secondly, although there is somewhat a shaky traditional definition of the soul/spirit, an interpretation of it still varies from one person to the other. Therefore, an issue of semantics needs to be resolved before we can potentially deduce if a soul/spirit exists by the mere experience of dissociation or else, equivocation may occur.
> 
> However - personally, I don't think dissociation resembles an ounce of a soul/spirit. I believe in solipsism that there is only one mind operating, which is ours. Yet, through psychological progression and experiences, this changes our self-conception. In fact, to believe if there is a soul or spirit is simply a disguise for a reference to _personal identity_. I like to think about it in terms of movie frames. Each specific frame you can recall (based on memory) is an identification of "me". There is never a static "you" or "me" - it is an endless, fickle, responsive identity that keeps changing. The implication here is that it is too easily often to associate a change in personal identity with an apparent differentiation of a stream of consciousness or soul/spirit?
> 
> I read a few pages from Eckhart Tolle's book and instantly put the book down. To be frank, I find his teachings self-destructive. I can't find any reason to believe in a soul or spirit - the burden of proof is too much to handle. I'm fine not knowing. Interesting thoughts though.


That is interesting. I do sometimes wonder if the Dissociation is similar to getting your eyes stuck in a cross eye vision. That could make it almost like a knot that we are meant to untangle to re-associate. But that could be the driving factor of keeping the cycle going, by that I mean constant self monitoring.


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## lostandfound (Aug 22, 2010)

flipwilson said:


> Actually it did the opposite for me. I was a born again Christian before this and I feel DP helped me shed those unhealthy beliefs. It helped me see through all the contradiction and hypocrisy that religion breeds. The fact that you can go in and out of this state, the fact that it can be triggered by chemicals, proves to me that you are an organic machine that can go haywire. I don't really try to define 'soul' any longer, I just know that the ego or the self(personality) does exist, but these exist somewhere in the brain and are therefore subject to damage just as any other part. Do sufferers of Alzheimers or Dementia lose there soul? Did Phineas Gage lose his soul? http://scienceblogs.com/neurophilosophy/2007/07/the_incredible_case_of_phineas.php I guess this answer changes based on how you define the soul but for how I assume most people think of it I don't believe we really have one.


I think along similar lines to this, flipwilson. I believe that the soul is the mind, and that the mind is a product of the brain. 
I don't believe that we can exist without our physical selves. 
Dissociation being a malfunction of our 'organic machine' makes the most sense to me.


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## lostandfound (Aug 22, 2010)

(sorry accidental double post)


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