# Heaven?



## Guest (Jan 16, 2007)

EDIT:


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Interesting speculation. I'd be interested in the responses to this. I guess everyone's idea of heaven is different, depending on their personality, likes and dislikes. If there is indeed a heaven, then I reckon it would be somehow have to be 'tailoured' to suit the individual.

Religious types? Any idea? This has always intrigued me. Is your idea of heaven just some kind of generic 'bliss' or 'peace' ? I gather that heaven isn't a place where people see and experience everything they liked in life. I mean, what if someone enjoyed S&M? Would they get that in Heaven? It's not classed a sin, is it? And what about someone who, say, loved cats. As I understand, there are no 'beasts' in heaven, so that would be a bit of a bummer. Unless, of course, as soon as you walk through the pearly gates - you are automatically purged of all interests and pleasures, however innocent. And could you get bored of eternal love and peace? Surely that would get a bit annoying after a while. Almost everyone enjoys an bit of a rollercoaster now and again.


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## reserve (Nov 3, 2006)

I'm not so fond of the idea of heaven. Getting out of one life, only to go to another... :x That doesn't sound so hot. I don't know if there's a heaven in my religion, reincarnation maybe.
But anyway, if there has to be an afterlife, I would very much like to be sent back to Earth as a Tree because trees are the most beautiful thing in this world. Of course I'd probably get cut down and used as toilet paper or tissues that people blow their nose into :x .


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## Epiphany (Apr 28, 2006)

Gee...sounds fantastic...where do I sign???



> If there is indeed a heaven, then I reckon it would be somehow have to be 'tailoured' to suit the individual.


Reminds me of that song by OPM...Heaven is a Halfpipe.

If heaven is anything like it is depicted in the Book of Revelation then I don't wanna go...of course, judging by the criteria listed in there I wouldn't be invited anyhow.

Hmmm...what is heaven to me???... A bit like the Wonka Chocolate Factory...the land is apple crumble, there are fairy floss clouds, toffee apple trees, jam donut rocks...and of course I can eat as much as I like and still look ready to walk the red carpet at the Golden Globes. Pure bliss!!! Oh and of course Martin's harem is just down the road and I can come and go as I please. If I feel like it. Whatever. Or maybe I have my own...yeah...actually, I think I do...there it is there over that sugar-crusted hill. I'll just eat my way over there...can somebody pass the chocolate syrup.


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## Cam (Dec 13, 2006)

Heres one just for you Epiphany.

http://kingkillswithlove.ytmnd.com/


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

If that's Heaven then its incredibly boring and probably the reason we started this whole "Earth" thing in the first place 

"If I have to choose between Heaven and New Kids on the Block or Hell with Led Zepplin....I'm gonna be surfing on the Lake of Fire man!" - Bill Hicks.


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## Epiphany (Apr 28, 2006)

Oh Chameleon...you found it...it does exist!!! Not too sure what that jolly-looking king is doing there though...[poor sod must be lost...wandered over from Martin's harem I dare say.


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## Axel19 (Aug 11, 2004)

To be honest, I think heaven is such an archaic and outdated concept, that it is scarecly worth discussing in our age, we'd be better off discussing dragons or the magic of the ether.
Even Christians would probably refer to heaven as a symbolic notion rather than a literal one, or at least concede that the afterlife is beyond comprehension.


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## gnarlsbarkley (Jun 28, 2006)

heaven? well i spose its not an actual place but a state of mind! hell would be dp, depression and heaven would be perpetual love and euphoria so i guess you culd say we are in hell?? but tbh i think the whole notion is a load of rubbish. im more drawn to the buddist ideals.


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

Axel19 said:


> Even Christians would probably refer to heaven as a symbolic notion rather than a literal one, or at least concede that the afterlife is beyond comprehension.


You hit the proverbial nail on the head as far as I'm concerned. It's pointless for humans to try to contemplate heaven. A few times in the bible they go on about how the angels sing praises to God day and night, for all eternity. Now, that hardly sounds like the kind of party I want to be at.

I have no idea what heaven is, but I'm quite certain it can't be broken down to a certain geography, equipped with boring events occurring at regular intervals and confined to temporal tediums. Like, i'm sure you don't die..."sign in", a la Monty Python's Meaning of Life and then head for a cocktail party.

Heaven and God are beyond what we can know. If we DID know, then "Faith" would be just another obsolete word. Like "Nincompoop".

s.


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

> If there is indeed a heaven, then I reckon it would be somehow have to be 'tailoured' to suit the individual.
> 
> Religious types? Any idea? This has always intrigued me. Is your idea of heaven just some kind of generic 'bliss' or 'peace' ? I gather that heaven isn't a place where people see and experience everything they liked in life. I mean, what if someone enjoyed S&M? Would they get that in Heaven? It's not classed a sin, is it? And what about someone who, say, loved cats. As I understand, there are no 'beasts' in heaven, so that would be a bit of a bummer. Unless, of course, as soon as you walk through the pearly gates - you are automatically purged of all interests and pleasures, however innocent. And could you get bored of eternal love and peace? Surely that would get a bit annoying after a while. Almost everyone enjoys an bit of a rollercoaster now and again.


I will tell you my own personal view of both Heaven and Hell. And I will begin by telling a story.

At the end of the Chronicles Of Narnia series, written by CS Lewis as a semi-allegory of the New Testament, is the book _The Last Battle_. In it, a donkey is dressed up in the skin of a lion to appear as Aslan (the Christ allegory figure) by an ape. Few of the talking animals in Narnia beleive he exists at this point, at least as little more than an imaginary figure, as it has been so long since the Great Lion visited Narnia. Well, the ape allies himself with the Arabian country next to Narnia (we'll call them the Tarkans- I dont recall their name) who are the mortal enemies of Narnia. They are cruel, and prone to violence, espcially against their working animals. Their God is a bird head on a man's body called Tash, and he, too, is cruel and bloodthirsty. The ape parades around the donkey in the lion's skin, saying that Aslan now wishes the animals of Narnia to work for the Tarkans. The ape cuts a deal with the Tarkans, and they soon begin ruling the once happy country of Narnia and enslaving its noble beasts. This is supposed to be Lewis's allegory for the Antichrist, in my opinion.

Much happens in the book, but the ending is the pertinent part. At the very end, Aslan himself once again visits Narnia, and exposes the fraud of the ape and the donkey, and some dwarves who were also behind the charade. The beasts of Narnia rise up against them, and imprison them in the hut from which they would show the donkey in a lion's skin. Standing outside of the hut from which the faux Aslan would be paraded, Aslan himself roars, causing the stars in the heavens above Narnia to fall. He then takes the faithful animals inside of the hut as the old Narnia is destroyed. 
The "inside" of the hut, however, is no longer the "inside". Yes, the dwarves are still sitting down as they were in the hut, but its entrance has become a portal for entering the "New" Narnia. Lush rolling green hills, and all of the long-dead figures of the past books are there. King Peter, Edmund, Queen Lucy, the flying horse from the Magician's Nephew, Prince Caspian. And they all are walking about marveling at the beauty that has spread out in front of them. But you can still see a hut's doorway built into thin air on top of one of the hills, and through its open view, see the stars falling on Narnia. And it is in front of this that the dwarves, mysteriously, still sit, not marveling at all.

Surprised at this, King Peter rushes up to them. "Bloody dark in here," one of them moans. " And cold too, " one of them says, as he spits in disgust while sitting under the bright sun. Aslan walks up to them, and breathes, and a feast opens up before them of roast, vegetables, and pies. One of the dwarves picks up a roast carrot. "Look, " he says, " I found a turnip on the dirt floor" "Look, " another says, "I've found a peice of rotten meat, the likes of which even the donkey wouldnt eat!" as he picks up a golden drumstick. "No, no, look you fools" says Peter hastily, " Cant you see you've all gone mad? Your eating like kings! And look at the sun! Your outside now!" As he picks up the "cold" dwarf and holds him up to the sun, the dwarf starts screaming "Aaaa! Aaaa! Stop! Your breaking my nose! Why are trying to kill me by hitting me up against the hut wall like that?" Startled, Peter drops him. "There's no hut - its gone, you silly dwarves. Dont you see where you are?" But of course, they cant. They're still in the hut of their own minds.

St. Thomas Aquinas taught that the fires of hell were the same as the fires of purgatory. I dont like Aquinas, but I agree with this. Actually, I'll go a step further - Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory are all the same place. There is no escaping God. He is everywhere things Are, because all things have their origin in Him. The closest one could get to Godlessness, if it were possible (and it isnt) is non-existence. This is the most antithetical thing to God that is possible. Nothingness. But wherever one exists, there He is too. It says in Scripture that He is like a jealous lover, and a famous poet said that God chased him through the ages. He will never stop loving ANYONE. It is we who stop loving, who stop seeing things how they really are, which is all virtue is. The truth will set you free, unburden you, give you life, love, virtue, and clarity. I have a feeling that we all stand in his presence, which IS heaven, and many of us will understand Him. That is Heaven. That is where King Peter was on that sunny day in paradise. Some of us will still be in the process of unburdening ourselves of lies we beleived - which is all evil is, a lie. A warping of how reality truely is, a warping of how we see ourselves, our quest for happiness. This process of opening up the door of our hearts to the "knocking Christ" more and more, is purgatory. Things get continually better, our vision gets continually clearer, we see the beautiful Country surrounding us more and more. Finally, there are those of us who are the dwarves. Christ stands next to us in in Paradise, and knocks on the doors of our hearts, trying to heal us, to explain away the lies we beleive. But like the dwarves, we close ourselves off to Him. And we see around us only what is in us -emptiness. A cold, dirt floor and the four walls of a hut. But he is always there. I sometimes even wonder if Hell is a permanent place, as Christianity has taught.

All of this - ALL of this, is possible now. It is possible now to be in Heaven. It is possible to achieve a total clarity, a total lack of lies within us, and to sit in God's presence in prayer. Most of us who do this are in Purgatory, a state of continued renewal and deliverance from lies, a state of seeking clarity and God's ever expanding presence inside of us. A few have achieved Heaven now, and they are few and far between, but it IS possible. I sometimes think almost everyone on earth is in Purgatory, but sometimes that Purgatory can become very much like a Hell. For it to truly be Hell, one would have to know God and reject Him, and I bet that there are more people on earth experiencing an innner heaven than are truly experience inner Hell. It is in our nature to be like God. Contrary to popular beleif, the truth DOES NOT HURT, and it is easier to be good than evil.

Will there be S&M in heaven? Will there be cats? There WILL be a physical dimension to heaven. I'm sure you will experience indescribable physical pleasures there, just as one can experience indescribable spiritual pleasures now. It says that there will be things there that "eye hath not seen, and ear hath not heard, nor has it ever even entered into the heart of man, what God has waiting for those who please Him". So describing them would be impossible. I cant even describe some of the things I've experienced in prayer. There wont be procreation in heaven, because noone else will be born. But I'm quite sure there will be sex. Maybe not with people, but possibly. There will, however, definitely be sex with God, the origin of sex. Will there be animals? It says the "lion and the lamb will lay down together". Animals are good - how could they NOT be there? All that is good will be present there - sex, animals, the good parts of S&M, and yes, excitement. The essence of thrills, of excitement, is discovering something you didnt expect, something that surprises you. There is no end to God, what he creates, what He is actually like. And there will, always,beyond all of this, be fullness and peace. If you want to experience a taste of this now - _pray_.

Though it isnt perfect, it is the most perfect theology text I've ever read. Maybe I'll write my own on the subject some day. Its called Everything you Ever Wanted To Know about Heaven But was Afraid To Ask, by Peter Kreeft. I recommend reading it.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Homeskooled, that was an awesome post 8)

I pretty much agree with everything you said, though I use different metaphors.

I especially liked the bit about the Dwarves - it demonstrates that everyone's reality is different and constructed by them alone. What you get out of life depends on how you view it, what your beliefs are and so forth.


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## Terri (Dec 19, 2006)

YES,
Now you get to use all of your resources
that "Tiny little bit"

Now you know your purpose in life.

Now you can live and think and feel
and do and try to be,

and it is finally
all of that,
for one:

the right one.

all of that 
in service
to that "tiny little bit"


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## Epiphany (Apr 28, 2006)

> If we DID know, then "Faith" would be just another obsolete word. Like "Nincompoop".


Oh drat!!!! When did Nincompoop become obsolete??? I'm so behind the times these days.



> I'm sure you will experience indescribable physical pleasures there, just as one can experience indescribable spiritual pleasures now.


If our physical self no longer exists, then how could we experience physical pleasures there? We can experience spiritual pleasures now because we have both physical and spiritual components but if we no longer exist in the physical sense then how could we experience anything further physically?


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## Epiphany (Apr 28, 2006)

Oh HS...sorry. I reread your post and realise I missed your whole point. You are saying we don't have to be dead to experience heaven...therefore we could experience physical pleasures there.

I see now...oops...sorry bout that...just ignore me....carry on everyone.


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## gnarlsbarkley (Jun 28, 2006)

(uncomftable pause).................


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Epiphany said:


> > If we DID know, then "Faith" would be just another obsolete word. Like "Nincompoop".
> 
> 
> Oh drat!!!! When did Nincompoop become obsolete??? I'm so behind the times these days.


About the same time that "Drat" became obsolete, I believe


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## Epiphany (Apr 28, 2006)

> About the same time that "Drat" became obsolete, I believe


Really??? Well golly gosh and darn it...aren't I a silly old duffer. I'd best get back to mending the hole in my slacks and listening to the wireless. :wink:


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> But I'm quite sure there will be sex. Maybe not with people, but possibly. There will, however, definitely be sex with God, the origin of sex. Will there be animals? It says the "lion and the lamb will lay down together". Animals are good - how could they NOT be there? All that is good will be present there - sex, animals, the good parts of S&M, and yes, excitement


My flabber is gasted like never before. I don't even know where to start with this....so I'd better not.

:shock:

But...if you were homosexual say, or into S&M, and keeping in mind we will be having sex with god...well, I mean,..well. No, I'll leave it there.


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## Epiphany (Apr 28, 2006)

> Quote:
> But I'm quite sure there will be sex. Maybe not with people, but possibly. There will, however, definitely be sex with God, the origin of sex. Will there be animals? It says the "lion and the lamb will lay down together". Animals are good - how could they NOT be there? All that is good will be present there - sex, animals, the good parts of S&M, and yes, excitement
> 
> My flabber is gasted like never before. I don't even know where to start with this....so I'd better not.
> ...


I had a similar reaction when I read it as well and I decided it best to keep my big mouth closed...but since you kindly opened the can of dirty worms Martin, well, ummmm....have we just been given a glimpse into one of the darker recessess of Homeskooled expansive mind? Could this be an r-rated snippet of a HS fantasy? It opens up a whole new world for me...perhaps I AM missing out on something here.

Tell us more HS...don't leave us hanging now...what else can we expect in heaven? :wink:


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Dear Epiphany and Martin, 


> have we just been given a glimpse into one of the darker recessess of Homeskooled expansive mind? Could this be an r-rated snippet of a HS fantasy? It opens up a whole new world for me...perhaps I AM missing out on something here.


You see, this is the problem with our warped view of reality. Do you ever notice that whenever we talk about sex, we use words like "dirty"? That the worst movie ratings are reserved for nudity and NOT violence? Which do you think is more antithetical to God - something that creates life and gives pleasure, or something that destroys life and causes suffering? If even your light is darkness, then how great is the darkness! Sex is one of the things in life the very closest to God.



> If our physical self no longer exists, then how could we experience physical pleasures there?


The largest part of our physical experiences is still _inside_ of us...the feeling of intimacy. The feeling of being loved, appreciated. Even pleasure. There is a spiritual intimacy with God that can be felt, which is just as noble as the physical intimacy one can have with other people. Its all a gift from Him and a way to express Love. But I was saying that in Heaven, too, Epiphany, there will also be a physical dimension to heaven. Physicality is essential to being human...not only that, the body is a part of the soul. The two are so intertwined, as I am fond of saying, that there really is no line seperating the two. Without our bodies, we are incomplete, and there is no incompleteness in Heaven. Not only that, but we are meant to be like Christ, who was resurrected. Therefore, like almost all Christians, I beleive in a resurrection of the body. Perhaps it will be more a "re-creation" - but nothing that is good can be lost in God's kingdom, and that includes the physical realm of life.

You dont have to beleive in God to feel the effects of sin. I see Puritanism, an unhealthy shame about our sexuality - which is the product of evil's warped view of reality - pervading atheists, agnostics, seculars, and religious equally. The day before yesterday was the feast of Antony the Great, Antony of the Desert, the first monk. It was he I made my short film about this summer with the monks of the Immaculate Conception Province. In my movie, I paraphrased something he taught during his life. I put placed it in the part of the movie where the devil is trying to lead him astray. The devil, played by a beautiful blonde polish actress, says " You must work out your salvation in the city, in fear and trembling, as the scriptures say" And Antony replies " Fear has no hold on me, for love casts out fear, and God, is Love. Away with you, accursed." Dont give into fear, guys. Dont live the lies.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Dear Martin, 


> But...if you were homosexual say, or into S&M, and keeping in mind we will be having sex with god...well, I mean,..well. No, I'll leave it there.


Well arent these the hotbutton topics? All I know is that there is goodness in homosexuality, and God loves them, _alot_. Will it be in heaven? Who cares! If homosexuality isnt perfect, there will be something better there! S&M? Sexuality is naturally aggressive. Whatever is good in these will stay, bad, will pass away. There is so much goodness and care for us in God.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Seriously, we are already in heaven. If it doesn't resemble your idea of what heaven should be, then change it


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2007)

Are we Cecil, are we?

G.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2007)

Openminded,

You talk about the consciousness inside us or truths we hold as a
"Tiny little bit" I read that and it makes me feel undervalued in some way
I feel like its more worthy of being referred to as larger than a tiny little bit.

G.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2007)

> Definition:
> Heaven: in some religions, the place, sometimes imagined to be in the sky, where God or the gods live and where good people are believed to go after they die, so that they can enjoy perfect happiness


Enough said; I win


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## widescreened (Jun 22, 2005)

Too literall a speculation.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2007)

widescreened said:


> Too literall a speculation.





> Define: to say what the meaning of something, especially a word, is:


I defined the word ?Heaven?? Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary is over lord; It ?can not? be wrong? =P


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## Pollyanna 3098 (Dec 12, 2006)

My idea of heaven is inner peace.

3098


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