# The Ideas of Gurdjieff



## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

For those who have never heard of him Gurdjieff was an Armenian mystic who taught what he called the "Fourth Way" system of human development, which was a way compatible with everday life of western man. He has called his way esoteric Christianity or true Christianity because it became obvious to him that there was a huge difference between what regular Christians believed/preached and their actual lives/actions, so he travelled the world to find a real system of human development which would actualy change the being or essence of a person and as a result he collected a huge amount of ancient wisdom and formed a system relevant to modern man without any religious dogma based upon a scientific enquiry into human development and evolution.

There are many ideas and methods in his system but I will just mention a few which could be relevent to people like us with problems like dp.

One of the main themes is that man is a three centered or three brained being which are the physical, emotional and intellectual centres. Each of which have equal importance in the proper functioning of a man. Nearly everybody has one centre more developed than the other two, for example athletes have a more developed physical centre whereas academics have a more developed intellectual centre. In our current science based culture most value is placed upon the intellectual centre while the emotional centre is almost completely neglected and as a result man is distorted and warped in his development.
When only one centre is developed it is common that the other centres intefere and even contradict that centre resulting in a confused contradicted human when one centre takes on the function of another centre, common examples of this is how people use sex (physical centre) to express anger (emotional) or when people intellectualise their emotions or sexuality. The objective of Gurdjieffs system is that it works on all three centres in order to get them all working harmoniously in equilibrium whereas most other systems only work on one or maybe two centres so cannot lead to full human potential.

I thought it was interesting to view how people with dp are developed in terms of centres and it seems clear to me that most have a very well developed intellectual centre but obviously malfunctioning underdeveloped emotional centre and probably badly funcitoning physical centre, as we are clearly are stuck in our heads and our intellectual centre has taken on the role of the other badly working centres. 
So in terms of this system our cure is that we need to get our other centres working again to balance the intellectual centre and to do this Gurdjieff had many methods, most are too difficult to explain here but I will mention a few popular ones which include sacred religious dances which stimulate the emotional and physical centres, listening to 'objective music' which is music composed to elicit a specific emotional reaction and hard physical work which has to be done in a specific conscious way.

Anybody interested in these sorts of ideas?


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Dear Pablo, 
Do you attend groups? I've found it useful to meet people who practise these paths. In the past few months I've found the following useful:

Brahma Kumaris

The world university of spirituality. They teach meditation for no cost, including how to find personality integrity and peace. Their centres are located in most cities.

The Religious Society of Friends - Christian mysticism

Quakers is an open forum for discussing peace, integrity, morality and self-mastery, with its main focus on the "Christ within". A meeting involves and hour session where you find the light within. Those inspired to speak stand and allow spirit to form their words.

Yoga

Being around people with increased capacity for inner sensing and self-control has been very exciting and new, recently. I'm inspired to follow those people in uniting mind, body and soul with physical mudras and stretchs that realign the body and remove emotional blockages. Without meeting these people, I wouldn't know what self-discipline was! It's all very new. Sometimes you must see what you are aiming for in order to achieve it.

There are people out there practising this path today, my dear. I hope you don't feel I've made assumptions about you, but it really sounds like you need to get out there and meet those who are doing it first-hand. It is very much the message of the mystic you've quoted above. If you don't know it through the emotional centre ie. through meeting those who have found inner peace and equanimity, you will find it harder to find the balance you seek out.

Take care


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Hi, thanks for your message, I dont think you have made assumptions infact you have hit the nail on the head so to speak because I dont attend any groups although I would like to and it would probably do me a great deal of good to do so. Gurdjieff says that forming groups of likeminded people is crucial for development and even says that it is almost impossible to get anywhere without so because you will always have blindspots inn your personality which only other people can see.

I have looked for groups where I live but I havent found what I am looking for yet, I know there is a Brahma Kumaris shop in town so I will have to have a closer look and there are many yoga groups . There are many Gurdjieff groups around the country but none near me unfortunately and I dont really believe in God so its difficult for me join a traditional religious group, so I suppose i have a lot of excuses why I cant join one at the moment anyway.

I think I am just intimidated to just take the plunge and really try to search for what I am looking for because of my fragile mental health, even though it would probably do me the world of good to be around people who are interested in similar things to me because my current social life exclusively revolves around alcohol and pubs and I am pretty sick of it to be honest and im not a great drinker.

But thanks for the push in the right direction, you have read my issues pretty well


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

> Hi, thanks for your message, I dont think you have made assumptions infact you have hit the nail on the head so to speak because I dont attend any groups although I would like to and it would probably do me a great deal of good to do so. Gurdjieff says that forming groups of likeminded people is crucial for development and even says that it is almost impossible to get anywhere without so because you will always have blindspots inn your personality which only other people can see.


Yes this is very true. If you do find a group where you are about to share yourself and your ideas you'll soon find various aspects of yourself being reflected back, either directly or indirectly through observing other people. This is quite a challenging process because it unveils a lot of the shadow you to yourself and also opens the doors to spiritual intimacy. It is, however, the only way you can really get to grips with the effect you have on others, arguably essential to becoming an ethically realised being.



> I have looked for groups where I live but I havent found what I am looking for yet


What are you looking for?



> There are many Gurdjieff groups around the country but none near me unfortunately and I dont really believe in God so its difficult for me join a traditional religious group, so I suppose i have a lot of excuses why I cant join one at the moment anyway.


 I researched a little before I found Quakers. Intuition took me the Unitarian Church... I looked up Unitarianism on the internet and found that it was a "non creed based spiritual fellowship", although it has more rituals than Quakers (which has none); also a non creed based fellowship aka. "The Religious Society of Friends".

As I've got more into it, I understand that Quakers isn't just an open forum to vent angst about the world and the need for inner fulfillment and peace, it is a form of Christian mysticism that is quite well defined in its outlook of "looking for that of God in everyone" and "seeking the guidance of the light within". It leaves questions of God, Christ, how to pray etc. to individuals, and principles such as peace, community and equality assume a higher importance in the group mind than "what you believe in". Quakers talk more about how to live and the challenges of life than the nature of Christ. It is ok to openly question Jesus Christ or God in a Quaker meeting for reflection because honesty is valued above social conformity and it is recognised that each person is at a different stage in their path anyway. As long as you go with a sincere heart, it doesn't really matter. They are generally very open and up-beat people...even the old ladies. They form peace fellowships and community groups in their 80s and that is also really inspiring.

Since going to Quakers, which has changed my life really, I've been to Brahma Kumaris sessions to learn how to meditate. This helps because Quaker meetings involve an hour of meditation/prayer, and that can be quite difficult if you don't have something to settle the mind. Quakers use different methods for connecting with the Light it isn't regimented, although it is emphasised that in order to speak, you should really be compelled by the Spirit. Overall its pretty pure and doesn't have a lot the emotinal baggage of places where you can't be yourself in your entirety. It's very compatible with life. Of late, I've found a bit of a problem with the tendancy for people to assume a position of "not knowing" in our meetings for reflection. An important aspect of being part of the Quaker community is mutual tolerance of belief so I should overcome my irritations about this. I would argue that Quakers isn't only about "not knowing" but "knowing the principles of Quakerism", which are in any case quite abstract concepts ie. peace and integrity. I believe it is possible to know peace and be certain of it, although it may not be possible to know other things in life.



> I think I am just intimidated to just take the plunge and really try to search for what I am looking for because of my fragile mental health, even though it would probably do me the world of good to be around people who are interested in similar things to me because my current social life exclusively revolves around alcohol and pubs and I am pretty sick of it to be honest and im not a great drinker.


Hey Pablo, I don't know what it is about having fragile mental health that deters you from seeking out those who are also interested in balancing the mind/self, but may I suggest you aren't doing yourself any favours by drinking to drown your sorrows? It might temporarily dull your senses and help you forget your worries, but yoga/meditation are about clearing the senses and being at one with your self. That is a whole lot more positive and you may find yourself feeling better just through having contact with people who live with that outlook on life. Just a thought.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

I guess ultimately what I am looking for is a group of people who teach real practicial methods of finding the truth about yourself but arent concerned with religious dogma or God. The closest organisations which I have studied which I am attracted to are the Sufis, Quabbalists and Gnostics, but it would be difficult for me to go to these people and say I dont believe in God but can I join anyway.

I used to go to a Qigong group for a while but I was at least 20 years younger than most of the people there so I couldnt really connect with anybody so I ended up leaving, and I fear yoga groups would be the same as this because it seems that most of the groups near me are geared towards housewives and are more exercise based rather than the more spiritual Indian based yoga. I have taught myself yoga and meditation in the past which I practiced for about six months, yoga is the best exercise there is for getting your body into physical shape but for me it didnt have the mental benefits I was looking for so I do Shaman methods instead now which unfortunately you have to do solitary. Hopefully something will pop up if I keep looking.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2007)

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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Hi Spirit, I have been influenced a lot by Buddhism and when I first started searching Buddhism was all that I studied. I would sit for hours trying to meditate every day and try to practice mindfulness (when I could remember  ) and read many books etc. There is no doubt that there is a huge amount of wisdom in the teachings and I learned a great deal about myself and the nature of my mind during that period but ultimately it didnt really deal with my specific mental health issues and I came to the conclusion that I wasnt really suited to the Buddhist path (at the moment anyway).

The conclusion I came to is that Buddhism isnt equiped to deal with many of the mental problems of the West, what I mean is that most of the standard Buddhist teachings were developed in a much more innocent agrarian time when man wasnt as currupted or neurotic, which fortunately is still largely the case in Tibet, but when teachers from Tibet have tried to transfer their teachings to sick people in the West they mostly haven't been a success. there is no word in the Tibetan language for self-hatred and when many Buddhist teachers first came to the west, people like Chogyam Trungpa, they tried to use Buddhist meditation techniques to heal the mentally sick and they mostly failed because they were totally unprepared to deal with the level of repressed anger and self-hatred that they encountered.

This is why they now say that meditation is not recommended for people who are mentally ill because in meditation you can come into direct confrontation with your karma which can be overwhelming for those who are fragile and can lead to breakdown, and for things like emotional trauma meditation is not a cure. Im not saying Buddhism is useless just that other methods might be better at dealing with more primary neurotic problems like early developmental issues, repressed anger and repressed sexuality.

Well thats my excuse for stopping the discipline of regular meditation anyway  and why I am looking for a system more native to my culture and mind, but if I cant find anything there is a big Buddhist centre in town which I can turn to.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

It's hard to know what to write because, in a sense, I don't think the Self is found around people. People are examples of Self, to varying degrees, and also share knowledge. Depending on levels of intimacy, you can share things of yourself and find them accepted by others, which in itself is just really confidence-boosting. There's a multitude of reasons for attending groups and often you won't know what those are until you have gone and discovered it. That's much of what Quakers is about, really. The space, in the room, where people are, as opposed to what is being said.

I'd like to say I had more friends from attending Quakers. I don't go every week and there aren't a lot of people there my age. But I have met a couple who I am friends with and lived with for a while. Through them I met others who were interesting and I learned a lot from.

Last year, in my solitude (living on own and not resonating with people at work) I attended university groups in the hope of making friends: debating, philosophy and salsa.

I got on ok with people but just didn't find people there with idealistic disposition.

Since going to Quakers and doing urban fruit-picking with Eat Sheffield/ Sheffield Abundance Project...things have really looked up. Most of the people I know are following one path or another, be it organic food growing, yoga, New Age or Christianity. Overall, I much more positive about life. Even though I find my friend's ideas hard to swallow sometimes, it's more interesting to be around those I can talk with about things on a spiritual level. We also help each other grow by challenging each others attitudes and beliefs.

The last thing I did was a yoga day course. I went with no real expectations as I couldn't really be bothered. But on arriving, discovered the room was full of people who practise healing, energy work, meditation, smoothy-making etc. It was liberating to be able to talk about the sensations of the different "locks".

I used to be put off by the fact that I didn't make friends easily. Sure enough, I don't make new friends everywhere. But I am "on the circuit" and have started to bump into the same people at different holstic events, which is positive. You get talking and find that you are connected via other people who also follow holistic paths.

In our times of alienation, it is really good to feel you belong to a community where people know you by name and interests and share a common goal (ie. well-being and community).


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2007)

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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Hello, 
It's great that it works for you. I'm not into Buddhist centres mainly because of feelings of hierarchy and inadequacy in being human. I prefere to feel my humanity is embraced as good enough, so a place of mercy and acceptance is by far the way for me.

At the end of the day a lot of this comes down to identity. I'm now realising how much identity and group membership has been a problem in my short life. Going Buddhist could never be an identity for me though, for some reason.

If anything, I can barely call myself Quaker. I do feel that to be an authenticated Quaker I should be helping in the community or something.

I do, however, believe in their way of doing things. It has a pretty strict social rule of non-hierarchy and places an extremely high emphasis on how one relates. This isn't the main aim of Buddhism and one of the reasons I couldn't give myself to it entirely.

Yesterday I read a bit more about Mormonism, and the relationships between the various religions in the world. Never have I been more anti-establishment! It seems absurd to me that any organisation could be held together by the threads of homogenious beliefs.

I'm starting to realise that over the years I've believed in one thing or another to feel I have membership to something and be part of an elite group. Whilst I would prefere to live in a community where people are sensitive to each other and their spiritual needs.....I don't know if God or system of self-bettering is worth anything if humanity isn't at the heart of it. At the same time I feel a bit sick of people and totally contradict myself!


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

I can really see how doing anything whatever it is with like minded people can be a big help for getting your needs met, so I suppose any group is worthwhile just for the human contact and a spiritual group especially good so you know everybody is there with the same aim.

I guess my issues at the moment though is that I need to regain some fundamental personality health so I can relate to people in a more "normal" way before I will feel comfortable in any group setting because at the moment im finding relating to people very difficult on quite a basic level, for example just writing this thread I am completely unsure how friendly to be and always questioning how I am coming across and whether I should be less open etc etc etc , and this is just over the internet to people that I dont really know. Perhaps the nature of internet communication makes it worse because you cant see peoples faces but I know that even a few years ago I probably would have just written what I felt and not been so insecure.

Anyway, for me at the moment the Buddhist concepts of emptiness confuse me and make me feel more insecure even though I know when Buddhists say emptinesss they mean a vibrantly alive emptiness not dp hell, still those paths which work as stabilising your personal self appeal to me more because I feel that is what I need, I am not talking about egoic self more what Sufis would call your personal essence or original self.

This is why I like Gurdjieff at the moment because his work recognises that most people dont have an "I" in a fixed state they have a fluid ever changing personality which often forgets and contradicts itself, so in a way we have many "I's" like contradicting computer programmes and his work like that of Alchemy is to fuse the many changing I's of your personality into a fixed I. He said that until you do this you live in a dream or maya state and "life is only real when I AM" , so the aim is essentially similar to Buddhism just that the focus is slightly different.

At the end of the day I guess we have to find our own path so good luck to everybody because I know we need it.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Here are a couple of Gurdjieff sacred dances if anybody is interested, they are allegedly taken from hidden esoteric temples in places like Tibet and Russia. The dances have multiple meanings but the main thing is to take the dancer out of their habitual body patterns to liberate emotions stuck in the body and harmonise all three centres. Similar to the Whirling Dervish dances of Rumi by concentrating on the complex movements of the dance your defensive mind is preocupied so repressed emotions can surface and you can empty your mind.

I especialy like this one I find it mesmeric. Each section of the dancers represents a different aspect of the mind and the work on it.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Pablo said:


> I guess my issues at the moment though is that I need to regain some fundamental personality health so I can relate to people in a more "normal" way before I will feel comfortable in any group setting because at the moment im finding relating to people very difficult on quite a basic level, for example just writing this thread I am completely unsure how friendly to be and always questioning how I am coming across and whether I should be less open etc etc etc.


I suffer from the same emotional upheavals over something as simple as writing a post. I worry that people will reject me for needing the comfort of chattering away with people over tea and biscuits about my innerlife. But the search still goes on. I've found a name for it: seeker. That's what I am. So whether I go to Quakers or a Buddhist centre, it doesn't really matter. Like so many others before me, I know exactly what I am here for: to find peace with myself and other people. That is my chief preoccupation in life and part of what makes me so unhappy. Sometimes things seem good and it all falls into place. But in the past I have had an extremely conscious awareness of my sense of being incomplete, and the futility of finding what I wanted in the normal channels.

At the moment, I feel a lot of failure over my medical degree being interrupted by depersonalisation, as if it were a personal fault. It doesn't matter that I'm totally incompatible with medical science (aka. sticking bits and pieces in people via various orifices). It merely matters that I failed to accomplish something I invested myself in (successfully) for three years. I'm doing research next year and will qualify with a BMedSci. The dissociation feels like a blot on my record and something which makes me less understandable to other people. My cognitive abilities are disturbed so, strangely enough, I can go on till the cows come home in philosophical disourse but don't possess the "skills" to listen to a person spell their name over the phone and write it down correctly. It's embarassing.

It is one of the reasons I've sought to find a social group where I can be accepted. I tell most people I am dissociated to explain why I may appear odd conversationally. It's important to me that people know who they are talking to and why I'm not continuing with medicine. I have to be honest about these things.

More than anything, I wish there was an "idealised me" who could face the world and fob people off with an image of my being an ok human being. The more life goes on, the less I can hide. I'm getting used to being myself more and more because it isn't possible in any case to hide my faults.....and I'd rather not try to.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2007)

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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Hi there Spirit, 
Quakers is ok. It has a lot of good points but it isn't perfect. I don't ultimately think I'll apply for membership because I prefere the freedom of attending.

I totally didn't feel pressured by what you wrote about the Buddhist path. I believe a lot of it to be true but don't think Buddhism is confined to the centres in the same way that I don't find Christianity confined to Churches. Groups do have energies though, IMHO, and I that is how I intuit where to go mainly. There are two Buddhist centres in my town, Kadampa and Friends of the Western Buddhist Order. I didn't enjoy my time at Kadampa. The money side of things put me off mainly. FWBO holds free meditation sessions does it not? Perhaps I should go to more things there to get a real understanding of that community. I am immediately struck by the aim for enlightenment though and this has a negative effect on my ego grasping, so for the time being I'm attending Brahma Kumaris! I'll post feedback as necessary!


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Rozanne said:


> At the moment, I feel a lot of failure over my medical degree being interrupted by depersonalisation, as if it were a personal fault. It doesn't matter that I'm totally incompatible with medical science (aka. sticking bits and pieces in people via various orifices). It merely matters that I failed to accomplish something I invested myself in (successfully) for three years. I'm doing research next year and will qualify with a BMedSci. The dissociation feels like a blot on my record and something which makes me less understandable to other people. My cognitive abilities are disturbed so, strangely enough, I can go on till the cows come home in philosophical disourse but don't possess the "skills" to listen to a person spell their name over the phone and write it down correctly. It's embarassing.


No need for a feeling of failure - you've done well to get a degree considering what you've been experiencing. Hell I got a medical degree and I'm not using it, so you aren't the only one in that boat  I can relate to what you say about cognitive skills as well - get me started about philosophy and I'll talk your ear off, but I can't do small talk at all.

The ideas of this Gurdjieff fellow sounds pretty accurate. I definately think you are right Pablo in that people with DP focus on the intellectual centre to the exlusion of the physical and emotional. I can definately relate to rationalising emotions which as we all know gets you into a lot of problems.

This might be a bit random, but even the statement "I think..." implies a focus on the intellectual. I guess this goes together with what you said about Western Society being very intellectual/mind focussed. What we really need to do is engineer a new language from the ground up that has more room for concepts like emotional balance.

Its also a really good idea getting out and going to different groups etc. I would benefit a lot from this as well and it sounds like Rozanne has. One thing my sister and I have been realising recently is that we've had very few if any positive role models in our lives. I.e. people that live a balanced and harmonious life. Recently I've been living with one of my sister's friends, who still has issues of her own but is also very open to spirituality and the like. Its been really great to have people around on a similar wave length who I can talk to about this sort of stuff.

The idea of creating a community is also a really good one. IMO we'd all be a lot better off if we could feel comfortable enough to ask our neighbours for help. Or maybe even know the names of our neighbours as a good start, lol.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Looking back at this thread....and for the sake of stating the obvious....finding others on a path is more to do with finding others to enjoy life with. Everyone shines a light. No matter where it is you go there are bound to be people who you learn something from and can love.

Heck, I think I made a new friend tonight. On Sunday evenings I go to an eye-contact session at Brahma Kumaris, which is INCREDIBLY effective for my social anxiety. There was a lady there I've seen at other events and we got talking. No doubt we'll bump into each other again and who knows if something more will come of it, like learning a new skill/art. On the whole people are a little more patient and understanding, and to be honest that helps if you have social anxiety.

It's just good to intersect with the other microcosms and understand that loneliness isn't inevitable, on the contrary, there comes a point where love can no longer be held at arms length.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Rozanne said:


> Looking back at this thread....and for the sake of stating the obvious....finding others on a path is more to do with finding others to enjoy life with. Everyone shines a light. No matter where it is you go there are bound to be people who you learn something from and can love.


I do sort of agree with you on this but the problem I have is that if you look at spiritual in this way then all groups are spiritual, so me playing in a football team is spiritual and even going to work is spiritual if you are mixing with a group of people, so for me at least I am looking for something more than a group of people who would be satisfying my needs like friendship and social interaction because I feel the need to practically work on myself.

For example if you were to go to a Gurdjieff group then the whole purpose of the group session is to do the opposite of what you normally do in your social life, so all small talk and socialising is kept to a minimum with the whole purpose being to break up your mental and personality patterns, so it gives you a place where you relate to the world in a completely different way which opens you up to perceiving things about yourself which were hidden by your mechanical social patterns.

Although to be honest I probably need to get my basic emotional needs met first so going to social groups to get this done is probably a good first step.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Pablo said:


> Rozanne said:
> 
> 
> > Looking back at this thread....and for the sake of stating the obvious....finding others on a path is more to do with finding others to enjoy life with. Everyone shines a light. No matter where it is you go there are bound to be people who you learn something from and can love.
> ...


YES!

However some activities are more positive than others. I have a book from the 60s about spiritual development written by a man who was part of a group attached to a spiritual teacher; they would drink alcohol when listening to allow the truths to penetrate their souls without a questioning mind getting in the way.

Hmm.....the way I see it is that, if I were enlightened I could go clubbing and it would be a really enlightened experience, but I know that clubbing brings out negative emotions, thoughts and feelings in me due to attachment to the physical. I also believe that most people who go clubbing regularly are seeking happiness in the transient, so their may be less chance of speaking freely with others there about finding a less reality dependent form of happiness. Form is very important in socialising because people like to know "who they are talking to".

Personally, it means a big deal to go to places where it s ok to speak freely about searching, chakras, meditation and direct experiences of divine energy that don't depend on external things. OR to meet with those who have a high ideal of how to find happiness on earth, through organic food growing ie. respecting the earth and not raping it etc. When we pick apples, more often than not, conversation is on the metaphysical and that has been a real joy to me.

As far as activities go, football is relatively pure, but it has a strong emotional content. And fundamentally, your success is another's loss, and that isn't so positive.

If you were completely enlightened, there would be no attachment to winning or losing in football. There would be no reason for shame or loss. It would just be what it was. Perhaps that is how Beckham sees it. I don't know how enlightened some players are. But I'm guessing that the main motivation and fuel of football is ego attachment and the desire to be better than others.

There is nothing wrong with football...it is the way of the world, and that is life, so why should one deny it? Like clubbing, judging people on form, is natural part of life and more than anything I wish to face that.

The other thing about clubbing is that it is all stimulation based. At least football develops your physical body and athletic tactics to make you strong. Clubbing on the other hand destroys the body and mind through overwhelming the nervous system with alcohol, loud music and visual stimuli (sex).

Meditation can actually produce the same effect but I suppose most aren't kundalini awoken so they wouldn't have pondered the fact that their sexual centres could be fully activated in a state of divine bliss sitting at home on a yoga mat.

Actually.....I may be misrepresenting my views on clubbing here. I believe the force of life is the basis for all that exists and so even clubbing in a celebration of this. Women dress up, men celebrate the goddess in human form. People dance and rid themselves of social inhibitions by using alcohol. Perhaps if people were secure in theirselves and didn't have social inhibitions to start with alcohol and make-up wouldn't be necessary. Women have feet to stand on so why do they stand on spikes to try and change their femininity from being earth based to a ungrounded man's fantasy of how women should stand on the earth. My feministic ideas are at the bottom of my disdain for most social activities.

I'm not one sided though. As well as invalidating women's internal life I wonder if men may feel the same. I find it hard to imagine a culture based on internal development of the soul mind and sensibilities towards others. Granted, I am an introvert and that it why it's my idea of an "ideal world". But sure enough, the very definition of abuse or neglect is to be inconsiderate towards the sensations and feelings (ie. internal lives) of others.

Perhaps life itself is inherently inconsiderate towards the internal life and no one is to blame, who knows.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

I doubt many football players are particularly enlightened not Beckham anyway, Zidane on the other hand is on another plane, he even looks like a monk 

I still have trouble classifying many of these things as spiritual though, maybe its just me but if you start saying everything you do is spiritual then you might as well stop searching and just do whatever you want (maybe thats the lesson in all this :shock: ) but then you deny the existance of true schools of spiritual development.

Im not trying to be offensive or cause an argument here but in my view there are all sorts of religious and new age groups which declare themselves spiritual but are in fact just social groups which do nothing to actually develop a person, most are just culturally ego based and just entrench you in your patterns even more. I regard most mainstream religion in this category.

From what I have understood since I started searching is that there are only a few esoteric and eastern groups which really can help a person find freedom and truth and can really be called spiritual in my strict definition of the term becuse these groups liberate your mind from karmic, family and cultural conditioning which has taken you away from your spirit. I like to call them schools of un-learning.

But then again I consider psychotherapy spiritual so maybe I dont really know what I am taking about.

Its interesting you mention clubbing Rozanne becuase I think what most people who go are really looking for (maybe unconsciously) is spiritual expereinces and healing. I used to go to a few clubs in Manchester where everybody in the place was on drugs and there was rythmic dancing and music so it was almost primative in nature, but the bond between the people there is like nothing I have seen in any spiritual group because the drugs had taken down all the mental barriers between the people so most people were completely uninhibited in their self expression and compassion.

Ive been thinking a lot about what being spiritual really means and at the moment my thinking is that anything which promotes healing and consciousness is spiritual, wheras anything which promotes sleep isn't, so most of daily life like work, tv, films etc including most religion isnt spiritual in my view.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

We all see things differently, of course. Recently I've thought of it like this>

Say, perchance, there is a spirit of love. Some place it in the body, others outside of the self. Many see it as a spirit that pervades the whole of reality. In order to contact this, there are some conditions. To contact something is to perceive it. If your perceptions are clouded it may be harder to see it.

Many seek to unlearn conditioning or drop heavy emotional content that has collected in the body. Blockages or excess chi. This can be done through confessing things to someone, sharing past hurts, or emotional processing (to name but a few). A process of purification. To many this is thought to occur naturally through dreams and the compulsive need to share things with loved ones.

Defensiveness and mental barriers probably alienate one from Spirit, in the same way that if someone close to you wants to give you a warm hug, and you turn them away, you turn away love.

Hurting others seems to turn it off as well. Maybe it is my imagination. But undermining others has a particularly negative effect on wholeness because that wishing negativity on others feels incompatible with inner peace. The closedness of attachment is incompatible to the openness of love.

It's not possible to be angry and experience peace at the same time, it sort of boils down to a choice. Also, negative actions are usually met by negativity in other people, although this also depends on their state of mind, so not all negative reactions are due to violence but the perception of the person experiencing it oftentimes.

The more the onion layers of heavy psyche have been peeled away the more the essense seems to revealed openly. But as much as finding the inner essense is part of the process, recognising is the process equally. It isn't possible to be essential self if one perceives others as devoid of essence. To believe so would be to deny equality of each individual to love in their most exposed and light state.

Listening to someone singing from the soul is a powerful experience. Looking into someone eyes for an extended length of time, contacting another in any way which cuts through the layers of the psyche is a powerful healing experience. Seeing the intention behind another person's words, receiving a gift with gratitude. All of these things are about attuning the senses to know love is.

Now, there is always love. IMHO. In the panic stricken words of my mother, however if I only knew where those words came from, maybe I'd know that she longed for love.

My belief that everyone wants to be loved and protected comes from looking at religions and people's behavior carefully. If people didn't feel the need to be saved then why would they pray or call on Jesus Christ?

In this way I try to cut down on my seeing others as living completely happy. Watching people singing in church has sometimes made me cry because I saw a longing for Love in it.

My mum calls on Christ. Even if she appears negative, her beliefs show to me that she longs for a place of love and probably just doesn't know how to acheive it.

I now feel a little embarassed about writing this but all I'm really saying is that seeing the heart opens the heart in my experience.

Where can I see the heart....out clubbing? out drinking? Possibly....films, certainly...

I see heart more in places of giving and sharing. Personally I just find it a bit easier in places like Quakers. If I detect politics or manipulation....competitive or what have you....it just doesn't "feel" right.

At Brahma Kumaris I feel I can virtually hear it in the people's voices that they have mental peace and clarity. It's beautiful to be around that. To imagine what it must be like to find peace in meditation...


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Pablo said:


> maybe its just me but if you start saying everything you do is spiritual then you might as well stop searching and just do whatever you want (maybe thats the lesson in all this :shock: )


Definately Pablo 

IMO we are all responsible for our own growth and learning. People tend to not like this responsibility and so we pass it off to other people, drugs, alcohol or what have you (I am definately guilty of this!).

"Split a piece of wood and I am there, lift a stone and you will find me". You can find meaning and love in anything you do. And everything (I mean everything!) is motivated by love, like Rozanne said. Either a love of something or a desire to find love.

The vast majority of people go through life unaware of this. They'll all still get there in the end, its just a different path. Everyone that's posted in this thread though has decided for whatever reason to take a more direct approach.

We have begun to peel back the layers of ordinary reality and look under the floorboards. Now we can begin to look at our intentions and the energy that makes us who we are and we can change it on a very direct level. I guess we just have to be careful not to get lost in our own minds.

I see the various groups and schools of thought etc as ways to interact with other people and learn new skills. Like I said before, I know for myself I haven't been exposed to people I can share this stuff with and so for so long I kept it all locked inside, fearing that I was very literally crazy (and I'm sure you can all relate  ).

You can take bits and pieces from wherever you go and whatever you do will be spiritual like Pablo said. I guess it comes down to this - Do what you want to do, but know why you want to do it.

As for clubbing - blergh, I never liked it. The only exceptions were raves I went to on ecstasy. The first time I took that drug I realised "This is how humans are supposed to feel all the time" and so I will work to attain that state of openness and calm throughout my life (without the chemicals though). Alcohol is one of the worst drugs around and I rarely have a good time out drinking. You can't even have a conversation in a pub/club because the music is too loud and obnoxious. Then you have the issue of people becoming violent and it all just gets messy.


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2007)

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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Spirit said:


> Cecil I beleive that saying "split a peice of wood in two,lift a stone and you will find me" is about non duality and karmic balance working through our lifes,the peice of wood split in two is like a crucifix........the stone like a weight...[balance]........life is essentially fair ,this is why so much emphasis is placed on forgivness


That's an interesting view on that quote. I got it from the movie "Stigmata" and it was talking about being able to find Jesus in anything you do. i.e. You don't have to go to church to worship Jesus, just like you don't have to take classes on Buddhism to find Buddha. I'm sure it helps though 

An example is the drummer from Tool Danny Carey talking about playing drums. He says that when he is performing he reaches a trancendental state. The drums become an extension of his body and his mind is totally clear and calm, much like being in a meditative trance.

The other example is when you reach for the first piece of toilet paper after taking a dump and your mind is completely clear :lol: Clarity and calm can be found in anything we do is my point, which I think is a central teaching in Buddhism.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

WOWWWWAAAAA>>>>>>>>

Please look at some of this crazy crazy shit on youtube: DesteniProductions and DesteniProdDemons

I'm sick of being enslaved by the desire to reach transcendent states. Ok...I don't buy into the reptilian race stuff, or Annunaki BUT this girl is a MUST SEE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ewkc2VwC ... roe%20life


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

CECIL said:


> The other example is when you reach for the first piece of toilet paper after taking a dump and your mind is completely clear........ which I think is a central teaching in Buddhism.


*

:lol:

You must take good dumps, I cant find the Buddha's teachings on the subject though

Rozanne is that woman supposed to be talking to people on another plane when she does those big long inhales at the start? she is certainly convinced about what she is saying

* misquote :wink:


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2007)

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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Spirit said:


> Rozzane you wrote
> *I'm sick of being enslaved by the desire to reach transcendent state*
> 
> Ive never heard anything so contadictory, :lol: <---affectionate laugh,not mocking at all.


The desire to reach the transcendent state is still desire so it stll rules you like any other desire

Im still confused about what constitutes being spiritual though because I have heard that "enlightened" masters can use any method they wish to help their students including violence and humiliation so what really constitutues spiritual teaching is hard for me to gauge.
Some people have said that it is peoples intentions and motivations which say whether their actions are spiritual or not but even Hitler thought what he was doing was for the good of humanity and believed what he did was spiritual, so I dont think you can trust peoples intentions really. So im confused.


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2007)

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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

This is a really interesting thread.

Sai Baba sexually engaging young men a tool for enlightenment? Just a thought. I don't know if it happened or not, of course, but even if it DIDN't, there is a big danger in following anyone with charissma.

I just got humiliated recently by a "self-realised" individual. Perhaps they were right and I am a narcissist. It has helped me to read about narcissism and the like. But is any form of violence, even the "fly-swat" stle of knocking people out of their egos ever justified?

RE: Pablo on DesteniProductions

Yes, that lady, Winged, is meant to be a channeller. I would like to point out that I don't really believe in or care whether it is true or not. The main beliefs behind her channelling sound delusional. BUT it is interesting to listen to her because she does basically point out the down-fall, in very clear terms.

Sex, sexuality, religion, ego, chakras, demons....there are 659 video clips and dare I say I feel like doing a research paper on this body of work because no matter how paranoid or crazy it is, there is something unique about her belief system.

After watching the DesteniProduction series I have realised that "I can't run and I can't hide". This woman, apparently delusional, describes ego, desire and sex in a remarkably stark and unnerving way.

After a night of disturbance I realise there is the light and the dark and I can't keep rejecting one in favour of the other. They are part of one package and I'd better just accept it because: this is life. It's all there is and its all I've got. Perhaps that's pessimistic. I stand by what I wrote about body clearances because that is an experience.

As for the true meaning and application of Buddhism, I look forward to reading more of your posts Spirit as it is very interesting and essential really, to clear up the meaning of Buddhism, something that does appear to be confusing for most in the West.

R


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2007)

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