# Maybe the Bible is the answer



## peacedove (Aug 15, 2004)

My cousin is in Bolivia washing homeless orphans and I'm in the f*Ckin USA doing jack sh*t.

We both grew up together. Were raised the same pretty much. And she's doing important stuff and is happy and normal and I'm cursed with this hellish DP.

Maybe, just maybe, it's because she kept up with the bible studies and I wandered off as a teenager. Of course I had DP BEFORE I wandered off so that can't be the reason for the curse....

But maybe, it would be gone by now if I had kept up the bible stuff. No it wouldn't. Look at me I'm selfish....

I'm just ruminating about how maybe god could have saved me. You're not supposed to follow the bible for your own personal gain right? You're supposed to have some unselfish love for this entity you've never seen... or something. You're supposed to do it cuz its right.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Just look at the world and you will see that the world doesn't work like that, there are many thousands maybe millions of people who prayed to god every day, deeply religeous people who one day caught polio and died or a bomb landed on their home and they were killed, while serial rapists win the lottery and war criminals live their whole lives in complete luxury and perfect physical and mental health.

If god exists he doesn't care if you read the bible or not, the history of the world proves this. If you feel pressure or guilt about reading or not reading the bible then it is your conditioning that is responsible, it is brain washing, it does not come from deep within yourself from your being.


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## californian (Jul 24, 2006)

agreed, pablo.

remember, peacedove, that God is not the big Santa Claus in the sky who makes nice things happen for nice people and bad things happen to bad people. rather, in Matthew 5:45, Christ himself acknowledges that God "makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."

remember also, that the apostle Paul had a thorn in his flesh (i.e. some problem) that he begged God to take away--and yet he recognized that it wouldn't be taken away.

God is not up there to bless you or curse you considering whether you read the Bible or not.

may i make a suggestion, however? if you are thinking about picking up the bible again, just read the Gospels first (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John). figure out what you think about Jesus and how he lived and treated people and how he taught us to live and treat people. don't worry about the guy up in the sky "you've never seen."

on that note, remember that the image of God isn't up in the sky. it is in YOU and in other human beings. practice loving people (including yourself). as 1 John 4:20 says, "how can you love God whom you have not seen if you do not love your brother whom you can see?"


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## peacedove (Aug 15, 2004)

Thanks for the replies.

I was thinking about getting the Bible on audiotape...

I'm finding it difficult to read anything these days so I don't think the Bible would be any exception. I read Mathew, Mark, and Luke when I was like 12.... I don't really remember any of it.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

peacedove said:


> I'm just ruminating about how maybe god could have saved me.


You don't need God to save you, you don't need to be saved at all. Take your power into your own hands and learn to use it.

Note: Getting into religion and the bible may be part of that, but its not necessary. Follow your own path


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Dear Californian and Pablo, 
Very eloquent replies....once again, very spot on, Californian. Its almmost like you've given me a breather on this forum! In any event, Peacedove, this advice is very true, and is what God looks for in Christians:



> how can you love God whom you have not seen if you do not love your brother whom you can see?"


Guilt _never_ is of God....conversion of the heart is. And that happens when you realize that God loves you, no matter how "good" or "bad" you act. Once you know this, good things will simply spring forth from your heart. Sure, you might be called to work in Africa with people, or down the street at a soup kitchen. If God moves you to do these things then listen, and all the better. But he doesnt want you to beat yourself up anymore than you already do, Peacedove. God would like to stop that cycle for you and empower you with love for yourself - because he already does. I wish you

Peace
Homeskooled


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

Homeskooled said:


> Dear Californian and Pablo,
> Very eloquent replies....once again, very spot on, Californian. Its almmost like you've given me a breather on this forum!


 :lol: That's funny. I was thinking the same thing after reading this Spirituality forum tonight. It's like a Tag-Team for Jesus!



Homeskooled said:


> Guilt _never_ is of God....conversion of the heart is. And that happens when you realize that God loves you, no matter how "good" or "bad" you act.


But...my question with this, and it is a little off-topic...is if "good" or "bad" doesn't matter to God, then why is there a Hell (presuming of course that you subscribe to the idea of one)? Why are there judgements?

I'm not trying to be nit-pitcky or glibly sardonic (glibly...what a funny little word)...i'd just like to understand more of what you guys think of this. I mean, how can you say on one hand that God loves you regardless of how "good" or "bad" you are (and i can't tell you, HS, how happy i was to see you nestle those words in quotations as well)...and on the other hand say that there will be a mighty judgement and the bad people will go to Hell, and the good to Heaven? Is that one of them paradoxes?

Thanks,

s.


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

> I'm not trying to be nit-pitcky or glibly sardonic (glibly...what a funny little word)...i'd just like to understand more of what you guys think of this. I mean, how can you say on one hand that God loves you regardless of how "good" or "bad" you are (and i can't tell you, HS, how happy i was to see you nestle those words in quotations as well)...and on the other hand say that there will be a mighty judgement and the bad people will go to Hell, and the good to Heaven? Is that one of them paradoxes?


Yes, it is a paradox, and thats exactly why I dont say it. By the way, nice use of "glibly sardonic". I think you just wanted to throw the word sardonic in this post somehow...

God doesnt judge us. He loves us. Nobody knows exactly how Hell and Heaven works, but this is what I and some of the Eastern mystics think - Hell and Heaven are the same place - they are within us. All of us go to the same place when we die - standing in the light of God. Some of us love it, some of us hate it. All of us are stuck with ourselves. Those who want nothing to do with God seek solitude within themselves, but these people are lost in their own inner darkness. Those who welcome God within themselves bask exteriorly and interiorly in Goodness. There's an excellent analogy to this in the end of CS Lewis's _The Last Battle_, the final book in the Chronicles of Narnia series.

Good to see you posting in the Spirituality forum, and it _is_ good to have Californian on here with me.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## californian (Jul 24, 2006)

sebastian said:


> :lol: That's funny. I was thinking the same thing after reading this Spirituality forum tonight. It's like a Tag-Team for Jesus!


this and homeskooled's remarks were quite funny. i had noticed he wasn't posting as much here, and i wondered if he felt like i was giving him a breather. then, right as i was thinking that, he posted that very sentiment... :shock:

can i say that i love the way the shocked emoticon looks... :shock: :shock: :shock: i never get tired of it.



sebastian said:


> But...my question with this, and it is a little off-topic...is if "good" or "bad" doesn't matter to God, then why is there a Hell (presuming of course that you subscribe to the idea of one)? Why are there judgements?
> I mean, how can you say on one hand that God loves you regardless of how "good" or "bad" you are (and i can't tell you, HS, how happy i was to see you nestle those words in quotations as well)...and on the other hand say that there will be a mighty judgement and the bad people will go to Hell, and the good to Heaven? Is that one of them paradoxes?


well, i wrote half of this response before homeskooled's so sorry for the redundancy... :wink:

it really all depends upon what your concept of heaven, hell, judgment, God, etc. are. there is a lot of different imagery used to describe God in the Bible. he is compared to love, fire, lions, lambs, even ringworm (by the prophet Amos). true Christian theology maintains that everything that exists discloses *something* about God, although God remains transcendent and bigger than that *something*. sometimes it is hard to fathom what certain things disclose about God, but in the end those things often show us some of the most profound things.

the bottom line is that in the Bible, judgment is always synonymous with a theophany--with a particularly powerful manifestation of God. biblical judgment is not the same as a legal judgment, like in a court proceeding. it is a powerful manifestation of God that ultimately is not pleasant (putting it mildly) for some people, and glorious for others. what matters is what *kind* of person you are.

in other words, judgment, heaven, hell, etc. are subjective, existential experiences. the love of God is something so amazing and powerful that it can be illuminating and beautiful to one person and a consuming fire to another. but it depends on the state of the person and how they relate to God.

one analogy i would give is a person that has been for a long time in a dark movie theater and then comes outside when it is bright and sunny. that which would appear as a beautiful day to someone adjusted to it wouuld be painful to look at for the person coming from the darkened theater. along with c.s. lewis's the last battle, he also wrote a novella called "the great divorce" that i highly highly recommend that demonstrates this understanding of heaven and hell.

in the end, the experience of God can be Heaven for some, purgative/purifying for others, and hellish, for others still.

please feel free for further elaboration if you would like it!


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

I quite like the eastern view that all duality is a creation of the human mind and that both poles of the duality are actually the different side of the same coin, what I mean by this is that it is impossible to know good without there being bad, it is impossible to know what happy is without there being sadness, people are only beautiful if there are ugly people to compare to. All dual concepts like heaven and hell are flipsides of the same coin created by the judgemental grasping human mind, therefore they are a human creation and have nothing to do with god or the ultimate reality.

I am not sure how well I am explaining this but in deep mediatation you go beyond the mind into pure awareness and your mind temporarily stops labelling, judging and grasping at life and all duality drops away, you essentially peel back what isn't real from your own being layer by layer like an onion, until you realize that the purpose of your ego grasping, identifying and creating duality is to create an identity to cling to to gain stability in the world, but ultimately it is not who you really are. This is why Buddhists say you are not your ego because in deep meditation your ego dissolves and if it was who you you really are then it would remain, and because all judgements, heaven, hell come from the mind/ego they are illusiory and do not come from the core of who you are.

When you get in this non dual state permanently then you have gained enlightnement and I believe that this is the ultimate reality because for example if you look at a tree and you are operating out of the ego like almost everyone is then you dont see the tree as it actually is but you automatically compare it to every other tree you ever saw and all your previous experiences colour your perception of the tree, but if you operate from your true self you simply see a tree like a baby would without judgement so you see its true beauty. Therefore the ultimate reality or god cares not for human ego judgements and categorizations of life like heaven or hell or good and bad, he simply loves all that exists.


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2006)

Very well said, Pablo, your whole post!


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## californian (Jul 24, 2006)

Pablo said:


> from your true self you simply see a tree like a baby would without judgement so you see its true beauty. Therefore the ultimate reality or god cares not for human ego judgements and categorizations of life like heaven or hell or good and bad, he simply loves all that exists.


great post pablo!

this last statement reminds me of a powerful passage from the Brothers Karamazov by Dostoevsky. it is amazing how much this resonates with the ideas of the Elder Zosima, who is Dostoevsky's distillation of Eastern christian monastic spirituality.

Your posts rekindle my desire to study (and possibly to Ph.D. work) in comparing Eastern Christianity and Buddhism, especially Mahayana strains (including Tibetan). it also reminds me of this really cool book i have called "Christ the Eternal Tao" written by Hieromonk Damascene, that sees Lao Tzu as essentially a prophet of Christ.


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