# To those of you who believe in "God"



## Epiphany

Hi All...

Thought I'd throw a question out there to all of you who have a belief in "God".

How would you best describe your image of "God"?

I know it is a very broad question but I am curious what your perceptions are...what images does the word "God" conjure up for you???

I am curious as although I am agnostic I still find it hard myself to shake the image a rather human-like "God" whenever the word is mentioned. Especially when God is reffered to as a "Father".

Not exactly a question that would place me among the higher echelons of intelligence I know, but just looking to satisfy my curiosity. :wink:


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## CECIL

"God", to me, is All that is. Everything that is, is. It's all part of "God". We are all a part of this infinite yet singular consciousness but we experience ourselves subjectively. Even though we are not seperate from All that is, we (humans) have created the belief that we are. This has allowed us, as a species, to investigate ideas and creations previously not seen in this universe.

Although time is an illusion, we experience it subjectively and in a "linear" fashion so that we can learn to understand entire concepts in great detail. When we peel back the illusion of time (possibly by dying) we are able to understand these entire concepts instantaneously and in great detail - but this first requires our consciousness to evolve to a certain "level" or vibrational frequency.

Consciousness is energy is matter is love. Consciousness evolves and as our own consciousness evolves we gain a greater awareness of ourselves and All that is. We learn how to create using our energy and the way our energy connects to All that is.

"God" is everything, is a part of everything and everything that exists is a part of All that is  Furthermore the universe is Holographic in nature. Each part contains the whole and the whole is a hologram of each part. This is why no matter where you look and what you do, you will always experience the same themes that are conserved throughout the whole universe. You will always find God in yourself and everything that you observe/do/feel. Additionally each "level" of consciousness reflects the one above and below (As above, so below), so the same themes occur in the level you focus on as well as the microcosm and macrocosm of that particular "level".

Through our evolution we too are becoming Gods, because we are learning the tools of creation - we learn to create ourselves, our life and our world. Eventually we become consciously aware of this fact and gradually our consciousness evolves to higher and higher levels of awareness.

I hope this wasn't too confusing


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## Guest

I used to have a very specific, traditional notion of God but went through an illness for 1 1/2 years that made me conceive differently of God. Now I view God as that which gives us life, that from which our souls were created and are a part of, something beyond us that cannot be comprehended yet that is real.


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## Pancthulhu

I do not believe in a creator, or a deity in the traditional sense of the word.

However I believe that our consciousness itself is special enough - we are all part of the universe, and we observe and analyse it. Therefore the universe observes itself; it is a living entity and that is God.

To quote the band Tool, 'Swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human.'


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## CECIL

Pancthulhu said:


> To quote the band Tool, 'Swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human.'


<3 8)

"Twirling round with this familiar parable.
Spinning, weaving round each new experience.
Recognize this as a holy gift and celebrate this chance to be alive and breathing.

This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality.
Embrace this moment. Remember. We are eternal.
All this pain is an illusion."


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## Pancthulhu

I saw Tool play live in London last week. Their performance of Laterus was so moving it was almost spiritual. There was girl next to me who seemed to be doing some kind of ghettoish r'n'b dance to it though...very strange.


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## CECIL

Ohhh which songs from 10,000 Days did they play?

Hmmm somehow we hijacked this thread to talk about Tool. That proves it, Maynard is god


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## Epiphany

Hey CECIL...

I was just looking through where everyone was from and saw that you are a fellow Perthite!!!

Yay us. :wink:


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## Pancthulhu

CECIL said:


> Ohhh which songs from 10,000 Days did they play?
> 
> Hmmm somehow we hijacked this thread to talk about Tool. That proves it, Maynard is god


The Pot, Jambi, Right in Two, Rosetta "are there any controlled substances in the audience tonight" Stoned and Vicarious. Maynard's comical dancing during Rosetta Stoned was hilarious.  Have you ever seen them play live?


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## CECIL

Awesome  I saw them when they came to Perth for the Lateralus tour...hope they'll come again, though we seldom get bands out our way, lol.

@ Epiphany
/wave ^^


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## chris_post7

Personaly I am opposed to the "picture thinking" what happens is we implement picture thinking of God, and automaticly put him into a box. We draw a face, set up borders and bounderies. God is wild and unpredictaable. He refuses to be completly figured out. One person once tried to corner Him, to figure Him out, by asking his name (the name of the gods in those days determined what they were all about) He simply responds "I am that I am"

I try not to picture think with God, even though it is so hard. It makes perfect sense why it is futile. We are finite beings trying to figure out an infanite God - it just cant happen.

I am talking about the God of the Bible, the creator. He isnt an old man that looks like santa, He isnt a gas that is floating around - He just is. Wrap your mind around that one.

About the God being an impersonal being (gas etc) How could something of a lesser level (lack of personality) create something of a higher level (personality) No, infact God is even more loving, exiting, noisy, rowdy, passionate than we ever could be.

This is the what comes to mind when I think of God.
Am I alone on this one?


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## strigoi

I don't think our 'lowly' human intellect can even begin to grasp the idea of what God looks like


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## Martinelv

> "God", to me, is All that is. Everything that is, is. It's all part of "God". We are all a part of this infinite yet singular consciousness but we experience ourselves subjectively


That is so vague as to be utterly meaningless. But perhaps that is your point after all.

See, us atheist can also 'see' the hidden meaning behing words. Clever us, eh?


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## Epiphany

> That is so vague as to be utterly meaningless. But perhaps that is your point after all.


I think that is exactly it Martin...the only way to describe such an influencial entity that is so elusive and open to interpretation is in a vague sense...that is mainly why I asked the question in the first place. I have many people babble on to me about the all-seeing all-knowing God and yet they are unable to answer the basic questions about why they are so convinced he/she/it is so real to them (except for Homeskooled who seems to have an uncanny knack of shutting me up  ).


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## yoyo

God is an exhalted man. What does it mean? It means that God is a man and that we are exactly created to His image. What man is, God was. What God is, men can become it. God is a man that have reached the level of perfection.


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## CECIL

Martinelv said:


> That is so vague as to be utterly meaningless. But perhaps that is your point after all.


Ok I'll expound.

First my belief rests on the principle that everything is energy. Matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration. Everything that exists (what we are aware of physically, those things that exist outside of our 5 sense perception as well as our own consciousness itself) is made up of energies of different resonant frequencies. Matter is denser than sound is denser than light. Additionally, all energy is conscious, just not in the sense humans tend to this of as conscious.

Another name for this energy is "Love".

Light = Love = Consciousness = Energy = Matter.

All energy/consciousness evolves.

The universe, then, is an infinite web of energies that interacts in incredibly complex ways. Our physical seperation is only an illusion because all of this energy is inherently connected.

From this, I think of "God" as the totality of this web of energy.

Now this next bit is a bit tricky:
Think of a giant eye in a sea of nothingness. This massive eye is infinitely intelligent, yet there is nothing for it to do. It can't see itself because there are no mirrors. It can't even think or explore itself because nothing exists besides itself. So what can it do?

This "Eye" is the singularity of God. So "God" (The universe) splits itself into focal points of consciousness, each of which are given a sense of being seperate from the whole. The "eye" (infite ball of energy) also splits itself into more basic forms of energy, which to each individual resembles trees, rocks, water etc etc. In other words, "God" creates a world for everyone to live in.

Now everyone goes around and has whatever experiences suit them. They feel as though they are mortal and seperate from everything else, but the truth is they are simultaneously seperate entities AND intricately connected to everything else AND ALSO embody the totality of God.

Basically the idea is that by doing this, energy/consciousness can learn about itself, understand itself and therefore evolve.

Hence, God is everything and everything is God. The universe is fractal. Each "individual" is a hologram of the total while also being a unique piece of the puzzle. Imagine it as a teselating tapestry that also forms a fractal pattern. Each small piece has the same overall shape as the whole.

Not sure if I can explain it well in just 1 forum post and you more than likely think I'm crazy by now anyway  So I'll leave it there.


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## californian

Epiphany said:


> Hi All...
> 
> Thought I'd throw a question out there to all of you who have a belief in "God".
> 
> How would you best describe your image of "God"?
> 
> I know it is a very broad question but I am curious what your perceptions are...what images does the word "God" conjure up for you???
> 
> I am curious as although I am agnostic I still find it hard myself to shake the image a rather human-like "God" whenever the word is mentioned. Especially when God is reffered to as a "Father".
> 
> Not exactly a question that would place me among the higher echelons of intelligence I know, but just looking to satisfy my curiosity. :wink:


actually, epiphany, i think just about every great mind has pondered this question, even those who decided to reject the notion of the supernatural. so it's just another case of "great minds think alike"  ...sort of... :wink:

i read this thread a while back and have often thought of exactly what i would say in a post that is not too long. so here goes...

i think of God, (surprise, surprise) as Trinity. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. but this should not imply an old man, and young man, and a dove. or as others have satirically remarked, the old man, the bird and the baby. all theology should be practical. if it does not have practical application, then it has no use for us humans and is therefore irrelevant to us.

so in short, the concept of Trinity conveys to me that God exists as community--as a perfect community of persons who have mutually infinite faith in each other, hope in each other, and love for each other. God is eternally love because God is an eternal perfect community of persons. it is this that gives me great hope in the face of something like depersonalization disorder, especially when one considers prayers like the following of Jesus to the Father, "that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one." (Jn 17:22-23)

the use of terms like "father" and "son" should not be construed to imply gender in God. in a certain way of speaking, we can say that God is the true "Father" and we call our human fathers by this name as metaphor and not the other way around. in other words, God is Father in that he is the source of all things. in the ancient world, most societies viewed the father and the source of life and the mother as the fertile ground in which that life could grow (hence the idea of sterility as "barrenness" on the part of the woman). hence, the biological father was understood to be the "source" of the child. as such, God is the only one who is truly father because he is the source of all--even of the Son and the Spirit (who are still equally divine and timeless).

two other important aspects of God to me:

1) God is the "one who is"--this is specifically the name God disclosed to Moses (Jehoveh or Yahweh depending on the transliteration). as such, i find true existence inasmuch as i am grounded in God in true union.

2) God is the one in who, again in the words of St. Paul, "is not far from each one of us, for 'in him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your poets have said, 'For we are indeed his offspring.' (Acts 17:27-28) and again, "He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." (Colossians 1:17)

of course, what i've written here is literally just one speck of sand on the seashore when it comes to an infinite topic...


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## Milan

Californian - you're Catholic?

Cecil - your description is very much along the lines that I have read about eastern explanations of enlightenment, pure consciousness, unity, nothingness etc. I don't think you're crazy because what you said made more sense than people just quoting lines from the 2K old book.


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## californian

Milan said:


> Californian - you're Catholic?


not quite, but close...Eastern Orthodox. any particular reason you ask?? :wink:

i think CECIL's definitions make sense too. i prefer to add to his ideas the concepts of personality, community,etc. i also would state God as present in all things and as the ground of all things (as i said above) as opposed to saying all is God and God is all.

in the end, though, CECIL's definitions are derived from concepts in mult-thousand year old texts too,...even if they aren't "quoted" :wink:


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## CECIL

californian said:


> in the end, though, CECIL's definitions are derived from concepts in mult-thousand year old texts too,...even if they aren't "quoted" :wink:


Haha, yep  Either that or wisdom unbound by time and space :twisted:


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## californian

CECIL said:


> californian said:
> 
> 
> 
> in the end, though, CECIL's definitions are derived from concepts in mult-thousand year old texts too,...even if they aren't "quoted" :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> Haha, yep  Either that or wisdom unbound by time and space :twisted:
Click to expand...

i don't know exactly why, CECIL, but the way you put that twisted evil emoticon together with that sentiment made me laugh out loud. :lol:



CECIL said:


> Either that or wisdom unbound by time and space


perhaps it is BOTH/AND rather than EITHER/OR. in one of my classes we were just discussing how one of the biggest mistakes of 20th century Christian theology was to radically oppose "revealed" theology to "natural" theology and then choose one over the other. but it seems much better to approach it as something that has been revealed both in sacred text AND is unbound by space and time.


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## Pancthulhu

CECIL said:


> californian said:
> 
> 
> 
> in the end, though, CECIL's definitions are derived from concepts in mult-thousand year old texts too,...even if they aren't "quoted" :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> Haha, yep  Either that or wisdom unbound by time and space :twisted:
Click to expand...

Nag Hammadi?


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## Milan

californian said:


> Milan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Californian - you're Catholic?
> 
> 
> 
> not quite, but close...Eastern Orthodox. any particular reason you ask?? :wink:
Click to expand...

The Holy Trinity thing made me think that you may have been Catholic but Eastern Orthodox is close, as you mentioned.



> in the end, though, CECIL's definitions are derived from concepts in mult-thousand year old texts too,...even if they aren't "quoted" :wink:


Your right....point taken.

Words create our reality, views, opinions, values etc. If there were no words or language therefore no bible, koran, sanskrits or religious doctrines of any sort; would people still believe in god?

Words are a very powerful conditional tool. I heard the other day on the radio someone say, 'Give me a five year old and I'll give you a Catholic'. I could could go on but it I'll leave it for you people to discuss who are more knowledgeable than I and spend more time studying and ruminating this topic than myself.

Oh, by the way Californian, you have a lay back way of discussing this topic and like Martin said, you're not preachy. I don't mind reading your posts. People who post and simply bang on about the bible being perfect irritates me slightly, I know it shouldn't, but it does. It's probably because of the bad taste that was left after years of Catholic conditioning.


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## californian

to pancthulhu: i'm going to start a thread on the nag hammadi writings. if you are interested, i'd really like to see what you have to say.... 



Milan said:


> Words create our reality, views, opinions, values etc. If there were no words or language therefore no bible, koran, sanskrits or religious doctrines of any sort; would people still believe in god?
> 
> Words are a very powerful conditional tool. I heard the other day on the radio someone say, 'Give me a five year old and I'll give you a Catholic'. I could could go on but it I'll leave it for you people to discuss who are more knowledgeable than I and spend more time studying and ruminating this topic than myself.


on that note, it is indeed interesting that the idea of "word" is so essential to both the Jewish and Christian outlook. God creates with his "word," his Torah is his word, and in John's Gospel, Jesus is himself "word."

i don't know if people would believe in God without words. for that matter i don't know if we would "believe" in anything. would we be much more like the animals who do not have a spiritual dimension (or at least appear to us to not have a spiritual dimension--although i would argue that their spiritual dimension is just different than ours). words are indeed very powerful.



milan said:


> Oh, by the way Californian, you have a lay back way of discussing this topic and like Martin said, you're not preachy. I don't mind reading your posts. People who post and simply bang on about the bible being perfect irritates me slightly, I know it shouldn't, but it does. It's probably because of the bad taste that was left after years of Catholic conditioning.


thanks. i try not to cram things down people's throats. i have very, very strong convictions, but i always try and remember that if God really is infinite, he really doesn't need me to defend or justify him. true Christianity is about liberating people and allowing them to experience the glorious freedom of God in their live...it's not about enslaving them. if people don't see it as liberating, or wish to find liberation/meaning elsewhere, what business is it of mine to judge their path?


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## Milan

With all my negative talk about Catholicism it's time to be hypocritical again. I went to confession last night, against my will but a power great than God made me go........my wife!

Our baby daughter is being Christened on Sunday and I was told I had to go to confession. Got to the church last night and went into the confessional box and instead of sitting behind the partition I went around it and sat in front of the priest. With old mediterranean priests they are very traditional in their ways and I thought he may have objected but he was fine. He asked when I last confessed - told him about six years ago and I saw his jaw drop slightly. He asked about my sins to which I replied that I'm agnostic and is that a sin? He said yes and then we had a wonderful 20 min discussion about God, humanity, spirituality, philosophy, faith, trust and love. It was a really pleasant talk and he somewhat shocked me with has patience and understanding. He mentioned that during his studies he was heavily into philosophy and for three months considered leaving the priest hood because he thought he had lost faith in God. I think he was chuffed to have had a very honest exchange with another during confession rather than doing the same old boring repetitious confessionals. When I stepped outside the booth everyone looked at me with those, 'boy, you must be one mighty sinner!' eyes - and all I could think of was how they were going to bore him to tears. Actually, I did see him leave the box after he finished with the person that walked in after me.

We learned a little about each other last night and I think on Sunday the sacrament will have bit more depth and meaning. The experience has not change me being an agnostic but I'm glad I went last night.


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## californian

Milan said:


> We learned a little about each other last night and I think on Sunday the sacrament will have bit more depth and meaning. The experience has not change me being an agnostic but I'm glad I went last night.


pretty cool story Milan. thanks for sharing it. i'd be interested in knowing how the christening went after all.

as for your statement about it not changing your being an agnostic...it got me thinking. because faith is the basis on which we know ANYTHING, and because faith and knowledge are both dynamic, we are all, in a sense, AGNOSTIC. until we have all faith, we are all either agnostic and content to be so, or agnostic and progressing towards knowledge of something. perhaps looking at it in this way could shed some light on why you both feel like it did not change you being an agnostic and also are glad that you went...

just a thought...


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## Milan

Christening went very well! All of my family and friends that were invited turned up for the sacrament at the church. The priest was very pleasant and sincere with his delivery. I sensed that he really meant and felt what he was saying rather than simply reading from the the bible. I did behave myself at the restaurant afterwards, only having a couple of drinks, but later when I got home a couple of cousins came back with us and I ended up very drunk....first time in about a year. I had a terrible day yesterday recovering and was once again reminded why I stopped binging.

I think the main reason I felt glad that I went to confession was that it appeased my wife and my parents. Not the correct reason for feeling happy after confession because you should feel glad to be closer to God after your sins have been absolved. I was really not wanting to go but realised afterwards that it was better that I did and had the before mentioned discussion with the priest.

These days I generally don't read any literature on philosophy or religion. I'm finding as time goes by and feeling better, (less anxiety and DP/DR), I'm thinking less existential thoughts and getting on with my life, family and hobbies and generally feeling more focused and happy. That's probably the reason I say that I'm agnostic as I really don't know (and sort of don't care) if there is a god, afterlife or not. I tend to believe that there isn't and happy about the fact that I'm not compelled to find the answers at this point in my life. Maybe when I get some more free time I might have the inclination to get back into the books and ruminate about the big questions.

BTW I like your signature. I agree that love is the greatest of all.


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## CECIL

californian said:


> words are indeed very powerful.


Definately. I'd go as far as to say the words and language we use plays a huge role in defining our reality. For example english is a very objective language and the way we view reality follows suit. But for example the native american language is very, very different and they have a very different world-view to westerners.


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## californian

CECIL said:


> [
> Definately. I'd go as far as to say the words and language we use plays a huge role in defining our reality. For example english is a very objective language and the way we view reality follows suit. But for example the native american language is very, very different and they have a very different world-view to westerners.


yes, language definitely is connected with culture, concepts of God, concepts of SELF etc. i've been reading charles taylor's "sources of the self"--pretty interesting stuff, it's all about how the way self has been understood in Western culture has evolved over the last 3,000 years...


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## gizmo

the way i picture God is how He is described in the bible. Jesus said, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.so the more i read the bible, the more of a picture i get, and how i see Him is love, truth, acceptance, all powerful, all knowing, awesome, holy, everything good all wrapped into one.but this doesn't do Him justice-there aren't words good enough to describe Him.


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## Guest

How do I imagine God? I dont, that is I can't. Everything we see and we dont is creation. God created everything and he is allmighty. Some people ask, if God can do anything, can he create another God just like him or, can God leave someone out of his domination etc..He created domination, created power, created our brains to think this way and not to be able to imagine him.

God is something that our brains can not and never will understand.


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## IMSojourner

yasko said:


> How do I imagine God? I dont, that is I can't. Everything we see and we dont is creation. God created everything and he is allmighty. Some people ask, if God can do anything, can he create another God just like him or, can God leave someone out of his domination etc..He created domination, created power, created our brains to think this way and not to be able to imagine him.
> 
> God is something that our brains can not and never will understand.


But our hearts _can_. That's how He wants us to know Him. And he's given us guides to do that.


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## Guest

IMSojourner said:


> yasko said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do I imagine God? I dont, that is I can't. Everything we see and we dont is creation. God created everything and he is allmighty. Some people ask, if God can do anything, can he create another God just like him or, can God leave someone out of his domination etc..He created domination, created power, created our brains to think this way and not to be able to imagine him.
> 
> God is something that our brains can not and never will understand.
> 
> 
> 
> But our hearts _can_. That's how He wants us to know Him. And he's given us guides to do that.
Click to expand...

yes but we still don't know what he looks like (and I don't think he looks like anything)


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## IMSojourner

Exactly. And just as the essence of _us_ isn't our molecular configuration, and more specifically, the part of our configuration that is visible to our perception via our eyes, God's essence isn't anything we can see.


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## sunyata samsara

Sounds like alot of you are calling the universe god, thats just silly why not call it the universe? You never hear a person say i dont believe in the universe and yet you call that god. I dont believe in god i think the only thing that exists is consciousness.


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