# read this if you want to recover



## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

i suppose it was the realization of depersonalization that got me digging. you see i have never been one to take "no" for an answer, and all i was seeing was that there was "no" cure. so i determined that in order to find the answers i wanted, that i would have to find something that they hadn't yet. thankfully having DP gives you this almost superhuman power of self analyzing, and a manner of obsession that (if harnessed) can be pointed in any desired direction, thus allowing me to dig deeper and think through the barriers that have stopped so many before.

while obsessively surfing the forums one day, i came across a post by cBURT, about a sublingual B complex that had improved his DP. in turn i thought, "well hell, it can't hurt to try". so the next day i started using one. it was only a matter of days before i was noticing subtle improvements, in fact it was the first time i had noticed any improvements at all really. that same week, i had my second panic attack at work. i decided to drink a propel fitness water because in the past i had noticed drinking one had a mild calming effect. well this time it had a powerful calming effect. i couldn't understand why until i read the ingredients, in highlighted letters it said, "contains choline, necessary for healthy brain and nervous system function". when i got home i decided to research choline a little deeper. what i found was compelling enough for me to add it as a supplement. while at the supplement store, i noticed most choline was combined with inositol, i had no knowledge of inositol, but the bottle had some good things to say about it and suggested it be combined with choline, so i thought, "well shit, can't hurt to try". when i got home i decided to read up on inositol, i was blown away buy everything it could do. over the next week i noticed steady improvement, yet had this plaguing question of why, why is this working when seemingly nothing else does? it was that question that has lead me to be writing this theory to all of you.

SUBLINGUAL VITAMIN B COMPLEX - have you ever taken a B complex, then gone pee later and spelled "pig" backwards, then said funny colors. well that stuff coming out that looks like it belongs in a glow stick, is in fact most of that B complex you took. you see your stomach doesn't recognize B vitamins in such a concentrated amount, and as a safety precaution, it flushes most of it out. this is what makes "SUBLINGUAL" so ideal, it cuts the stomach out of the process and goes straight for the bloodstream. other than injections, sublingual is the most direct way to get the full benefit out of B vitamins. now to even start recovery, we need to give ourselves a tune up. the most important vitamins for overall brain function are the B vitamins. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE LOW ON B VITAMINS TO NEED THEM. the suggested B blood levels are for people who are happy and healthy, WE'RE NOT. if your brain isn't working right, you should probably intake something thats main job is to make your brain work right. all B's play an important role in brain function, anywhere from assisting in the manufacturing of neurotransmitters to regulating energy release in brain cells. now i have been very careful about how i word things with this course of treatment, but this is one thing i will say, "if you take a sublingual B complex, you WILL feel the difference".

RHODIOLA ROSEA - as a whole is an adaptogen, which means it's basic function is to stabilize the functions of the mind and body without interfering with systems that aren't malfunctioning. in testing it has shown the ability to increase serotonin, dopamine and norepinephrine. it has shown therapeutic benefit in anxiety, depression, OCD and chronic inescapable stress among many physical ailments as well.

L-THEANINE - directly stimulates the production of alpha brain waves, creating a state of deep relaxation and mental alertness similar to that which is achieved through meditation. it is also involved in the formation of the neurotransmitter GABA. GABA influences the levels of serotonin and dopamine, producing an ideal balance and achieving the relaxation effect. L-theanine has been shown to reduce anxiety, depression, OCD, stress and increase mental clarity, alertness, memory and learning ability.

CHOLINE - is a precursor for the neurotransmitter acetylcholine, which is associated with the central nervous system in the areas of memory and learning. among many other functions it is also supplemented to Alzheimers patients to stem off and in some cases reverse cognitive decline. it's use in this treatment will be to improve memory and learning ability. it will be a temporary use, only to be used until desired affect is achieved. this should take around one month.

INOSITOL - has been widely studied and utilized for therapeutic purposes. it's functions include (but are not limited to) nerve guidance, concentration control, cell membrane maintenance, and serotonin activity stimulation. inositol is necessary for a healthy functioning nervous system, it has shown therapeutic use in anxiety, panic disorder, obsessive compulsive disorders, agoraphobia, depression, ADD, diabetic neuropathy, bipolar disorder, and bulimia. while you may not fit into everyone of those categories, with depersonalization you probably fit into more than one. which suggest that inositol would have therapeutic use for DP.

BETA BRAIN WAVES - are the brain waves responsible for the way your brain worked before you had DP/DR. they are what are in affect when you are awake. i have found (especially in my case) that an overproduction of beta waves is partially responsible for DP/DR. too much beta activity can cause anxiety, stress, paranoia, muscle tension, high blood pressure, obsessive compulsive thoughts, insomnia and addictive behavior. l-theanine will help alleviate the over activity of beta brain waves by increasing the activity of alpha brain waves.

ALPHA BRAIN WAVES - are the brain waves responsible for a calm and relaxing state of mind. an alpha brain wave state will relax mind/body, access creativity, enhance problem solving ability, produce calm and centered emotions, increase athletic performance, induce positive thinking, produce natural flow, heightened learning ability, improve immune system, reduce fear, tension, stress, nervousness and anxiety, and the big one, ability to increase sense of self/self awareness.

SEROTONIN - is a neurotransmitter that regulates many functions in the central nervous system such as appetite, muscle contraction, sleep, mood, and cognitive functions such as memory and learning. too little serotonin can result in depression, anxiety, obsessive compulsive behavior/thought, uncontrolled repetitive thoughts, suicidal thoughts/behavior, agoraphobia, irritability/anger, sleep disorders, addictive behavior, loss of confidence etc. insufficient serotonin can be genetic or result from lifestyle. some things that lower serotonin are stress, excessive caffeine use, excessive alcohol, marijuana and amphetamine use, inadequate sunlight exposure. vitamin deficiencies that lower serotonin include iron, calcium, magnesium, zinc, vitamin C, B3, B6 and folate.

DOPAMINE - is a neurotransmitter that controls the flow of information in the brain, primarily pertaining to movement, pleasure, motivation, and cognitive function. a lack of dopamine activity results in reduced ability to feel pleasure, apathy, lack of enthusiasm, depression, lack of motivation, loss of interest, lack of urgency/procrastination, lack of attention span/concentration, slow learning, lack of libido, craving uppers, introverted/shyness, mentally and physically fatigued easily, prone to addictions, oversleep/trouble getting out of bed, gain weight easily, and family history of alcoholism/ADD/ADHD. things that can decrease dopamine's natural level are STRESS, specific antidepressants, cocaine, amphetamines, poor nutrition, poor sleep habits, alcohol, caffeine, and sugar. vitamin deficiency's that can decrease dopamine are C, D, B6, B12 and zinc.

MY THEORY - given this background information, and the specific relevance to depersonalization, i have determined that my depersonalization (and likely, many others) was directly caused by an lack of serotonin and dopamine activity, and an increase in beta brain wave activity. i was setting myself up for this fall for a while, drinking a pot of coffee a day, smoking a pack a day, binge drinking every weekend, and being under chronic stress from my job and relationship was tearing my serotonin and dopamine to shreds. i didn't see it coming because i was perpetuating a dopamine high by constantly stimulating dopamine with uppers, but one day there wasn't enough dopamine to stimulate anymore and i crashed hard.

MY TREATMENT - the intent of this treatment is to eradicate all underlying symptoms of DP/DR by regulating dopamine and serotonin function and decreasing beta brain wave activity while increasing alpha brain wave activity. for anyone who feels that their DP/DR has any relation to stress, anxiety, depression, panic disorder, OCD or all of the above. this treatment will work. if you are like me before DP/DR you didn't have any of these symptoms, but since DP/DR you have one or all of these symptoms. now if we take all of these symptoms out of the picture then there is nothing left for DP/DR to thrive on. gradually things will start to clear up, you'll start to feel anxiety lift, your obsession with getting better will start to fade, you will notice your mind working the way it used to, your memories will start to come back including ones that you've created since DP/DR that you didn't even know you had, then you will notice flashes of reality, you will start to connect at times involuntarily, it will happen more and more often until you can do it at will, you will reach a point of half connected half disconnected and the connection will get stronger until you are connected almost didn't even realize it. it will happen naturally and gradually. in one to three months you will recover from DP/DR.

CONCLUSION - i want to make it clear that i don't know that this will work for everyone as i have not tested this on everyone. but i am confident that everyone with a similar case to mine will have a similar recovery to mine. the diagnoses, treatment and recovery are all in agreement. i targeted what i believed to be the problems, applied a treatment to rectify them and recovered. i am not finished with my treatment, i am only 99.9% recovered. so hopefully i'm not jumping the gun here by posting this, but i don't want to keep you guys waiting, because even if you all don't recover 100%, i know you will definitely feel a larger benefit from this than any drug or therapist you've tried yet.

THE INGREDIENTS - to start
l-theanine - 200 mg
rhodiola rosea - 250 mg (3% rosavin, 1% salidroside)
choline - 500 mg
inositol - 1,000 mg - 2,000 mg
sublingual B complex - containing at least - B2, B3, B5, B6, B12
folic acid (B9) - 800 mcg
thiamine (B1) - 100 mg
magnesium - 500 mg
iron - 18 mg
calcium - 1 g
vitamin D - 400 iu (international units)
vitamin C - 1 g
omega 3 - (fish body oil - 1 g, EPA -300 mg, DHA - 200 mg)

THIS IS MY GIFT TO THE DEPERSONALIZED COMMUNITY. it has truly become a labor of love. i will continue to seek out answers until there is one for every question. below are a few links used as reference, no, wikipedia is not my main source, just where i got started. for any questions, comments, or concerns, feel free to PM me.

SPECIAL THANKS - first and foremost, i want to think GOD for his guidance and answer to prayer in my search for answers and recovery. i understand that not everyone shares this sentiment but i never would have found this treatment without him leading me to it. i would also like to thank my family for their endless support and prayer through this journey/battle. i would like to thank every member of this community for being here for me when i needed you, your help and support was crucial for my recovery and without you guys i never would have had the drive to find the answers that i have. i could have given up at times for myself, but i could not and will not give up on all of you.

with love, Tommy.

BOOK - The Craving Brain - Ronald A. Ruden, M.D., ph.D.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine_r ... _inhibitor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin
http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/c ... deficiency
http://www.vitamins-supplements.org/hor ... pamine.php
http://www.houseofnutrition.com/cholin.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choline
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B_vitamins
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles ... ns-busy-bs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublingual_administration
http://www.mcmanweb.com/dopamine.html
http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/c ... deficiency
http://www.web-us.com/brainwavesfunction.htm
http://www.brainwavesblog.com/alpha-brain-waves/
http://www.brainwavesblog.com/beta-brai ... formation/


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## Foolishgoiter (Mar 24, 2009)

First of all, i would like to thank you for your time and research. This gives me so much hope for the future. Am i able to buy these products at a local health store? or would i need to talk to my shrink to acquire some? i will start taking them regularly ( Once a day? ) and give you feedback on weather it is effective or not.


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

any good vitamin shop should carry all of this. i.e. - super supplements or GNC.


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## iVoltage (Nov 4, 2009)

Are there any pills/supplements that have some of these ingredients in them?
Cause i dont want to take like 10 different pills to get everything.
What exactly do you suggest i do?
Wont drinking Propel work like you said?
Im a bit confused bro. Please clarify, and THANK YOU for researching this all, i really hope it helps alot of people.
And god does play an important factor to the road to recovery, he really does.


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

I checked my bottle of propel today but didn't see anything in it that is on your list of supps Tom. It's interesting that you (or was it Garjon?) read on a bottle of propel that choline (or was it another supplement) enhances brain function. I love drinking propel, it makes me feel good. Peace.


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

choline, it's only in the black cherry propel.


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## iVoltage (Nov 4, 2009)

So if i keep drinking black cherry propel, will it help me?


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

not really, the amounts of everything are too little for any true benefit (other than hydration). but drinking it won't hurt, and it's delicious.


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## iVoltage (Nov 4, 2009)

So what do you suggest i do bro?
How can i recover? What I take vitamin C pills or whatever.
do you think i should just not keep my mind on the dp?
will it go away this way?


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

the best thing i can suggest is to take the supplements in the list above. yoga and EFT seem to be beneficial as well. i understand that it's hard to go out and by a load of supplements and start taking them daily. that is why i am working on patenting this formula with the intent of putting it into liquid form. obviously that will take some time. so for now, this is what we have.


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## iVoltage (Nov 4, 2009)

But im only 16, i dont know aything about pills like these.
Is this the only way to recover?
Isnt there another method? I want out of this stupid DP.


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2009)

iVoltage said:


> But im only 16, i dont know aything about pills like these.
> Is this the only way to recover?
> Isnt there another method? I want out of this stupid DP.


Honestly, there is NO specific method to recover. Tommy has found something that has worked for him. I know people who have recovered taking medications from antidepressants to seizure medication. Others say talk therapy or ignoring your symptoms. Other people never recover. Different things work for different people.

I'm right with you. I WANT OUT and I want out NOW. It's so hard to live with.


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## CindyinMontana (Nov 10, 2009)

Hi Tommy,
Thanks for the post. I haven't been on here in awhile and I finally joined for the first time today and earlier made a post. I have personally experimented with supplements and have had success. I am presently taking B Complex, magnesium, calcium, vit d, vit c, fish oil, st. john's wort, bee pollen, ginko biloba, valerian (at night to help sleep), and a probiotic. My husband is shocked at how many pills I can swallow at once. I did a super long post about my personal recovery journey earlier today so I won't go into too much but I am excited to try your other supplement suggestions. I am totally with you on your theories, I have come to similar conclusions myself about body chemistry imbalances. It feels so good to finally be able to control this beast. Maybe we should go into business together...ha ha. I have created my own self help tapes that really work!! One is for when I start to feel sorry for myself and it stops that cycle and I have another one entitled Getting Pissed. I swore that when I felt better enough I was going to lecture across the world to dp sufferers sharing information or patent my tapes but now I am sort of just quietly moving on. I am so grateful for the dp manual... he really has helped the masses. Good luck with carrying the torch on creating a supplement for the dp community. You have to wonder how many of us there really are. 
You know, I actually had my first experience with dp when I was 17 years old (I'm 37 now), before it was a "known" disorder. I was put into a psychiatric ward and numerous tests were done on me but they could never understand me and also were never able to diagnose me. They tried to put me on drugs but I refused and got better on my own...I think it was a process that took about three years. Eventually, I forgot about it and moved on thinking that it was just a weird thing that happened to me in high school (although I worried that deep down I was "crazy" but no one but me knew it). Twenty years later, it came on again and kind of caught me by surprise. This time, with the help of computers, I finally knew what was happening to me. At first, I couldn't decide if it was worse knowing because of all the horror stories I was hearing from other dp sufferers. I found my inner strength though and fought my way (and continue to fight my way sometimes) through this and I am relieved to be able to understand what this is. The most important thing is to surround yourself with positivity, hope and around others like yourself, on the front lines, fighting to help each other find solutions. It's been almost a year since this last episode first came on and I have learned so much. I am open to even more answers. Thanks a ton!!! I will let you know what the results of your added supplement ideas bring.
!


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## CindyinMontana (Nov 10, 2009)

Hi Tommy,
Thanks for the post. I haven't been on here in awhile and I finally joined for the first time today and earlier made a post. I have personally experimented with supplements and have had success. I am presently taking B Complex, magnesium, calcium, vit d, vit c, fish oil, st. john's wort, bee pollen, ginko biloba, valerian (at night to help sleep), and a probiotic. My husband is shocked at how many pills I can swallow at once. I did a super long post about my personal recovery journey earlier today so I won't go into too much but I am excited to try your other supplement suggestions. I am totally with you on your theories, I have come to similar conclusions myself about body chemistry imbalances. It feels so good to finally be able to control this beast. Maybe we should go into business together...ha ha. I have created my own self help tapes that really work!! One is for when I start to feel sorry for myself and it stops that cycle and I have another one entitled Getting Pissed. I swore that when I felt better enough I was going to lecture across the world to dp sufferers sharing information or patent my tapes but now I am sort of just quietly moving on. I am so grateful for the dp manual... he really has helped the masses. Good luck with carrying the torch on creating a supplement for the dp community. You have to wonder how many of us there really are. 
You know, I actually had my first experience with dp when I was 17 years old (I'm 37 now), before it was a "known" disorder. I was put into a psychiatric ward and numerous tests were done on me but they could never understand me and also were never able to diagnose me. They tried to put me on drugs but I refused and got better on my own...I think it was a process that took about three years. Eventually, I forgot about it and moved on thinking that it was just a weird thing that happened to me in high school (although I worried that deep down I was "crazy" but no one but me knew it). Twenty years later, it came on again and kind of caught me by surprise. This time, with the help of computers, I finally knew what was happening to me. At first, I couldn't decide if it was worse knowing because of all the horror stories I was hearing from other dp sufferers. I found my inner strength though and fought my way (and continue to fight my way sometimes) through this and I am relieved to be able to understand what this is. The most important thing is to surround yourself with positivity, hope and around others like yourself, on the front lines, fighting to help each other find solutions. It's been almost a year since this last episode first came on and I have learned so much. I am open to even more answers. Thanks a ton!!! I will let you know what the results of your added supplement ideas bring.
!


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2009)

I think that the supplements can work but I also am convinced that you MUST work on the thought habit as well, otherwise it doesn't matter how many supplements you take, you will be telling your brain something is wrong/there is something to be scared of so it will carry on protecting itself.


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

you see that is the amazing part of this treatment. it puts you in a controlled state of mind where the thoughts that perpetuate DP/DR just go away on their own. it really is remarkable how effective this treatment is. just ask "thenewguy", he's had it for 8 years and has made significant recovery in only a few weeks.


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## Mario (Oct 26, 2009)

[quote name="Tommygunz"]

THE INGREDIENTS - to start
l-theanine - 200 mg
rhodiola rosea - 250 mg (3% rosavin, 1% salidroside)
choline - 500 mg
inositol - 1,000 mg - 2,000 mg
sublingual B complex - containing at least - B2, B3, B5, B6, B12
folic acid (B9) - 800 mcg
thiamine (B1) - 100 mg
magnesium - 500 mg
iron - 18 mg
calcium - 1 g
vitamin D - 400 iu (international units)
vitamin C - 1 g
omega 3 - (fish body oil - 1 g, EPA -300 mg, DHA - 200 mg)

Hi tommy
Ccould you please tell how did you manage to get all of this formula products?Did you buy them in different stores or in just one?And how could you get these exact quantities to each product?Were they prepared by the store?
I'm very much interested on your formula.Sorry for asking you this but the problem is that i'm from Portugal and it's being difficult to get all the products here.Besides that the poducts they sell here don't have the same quantities as in your formula
Thanks in advance for you reply


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

this is a website that you should be able to order all of the supplements from at a discounted price.

http://www.puritan.com/


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## Mario (Oct 26, 2009)

Thanks tommy


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2009)

Tommygunz said:


> you see that is the amazing part of this treatment. it puts you in a controlled state of mind where the thoughts that perpetuate DP/DR just go away on their own. it really is remarkable how effective this treatment is. just ask "thenewguy", he's had it for 8 years and has made significant recovery in only a few weeks.


I don't think you ought to make claims like that to be honest based on a few people on one website (and yes, anything below 3 figures, and maybe even 4, is few, in science......plus there's no double blind/controls/placebos/repeats etc) (to be blunt) :shock: particularly as you haven't really explained anywhere properly the mechanism/pathway you are aiming to affect and how. It's all a bit vague at the moment, kind of bits and pieces cobbled together from various websites like wikipedia. It could do with being amalgamated properly and then summarised, I have read hundreds of scientific papers over the years and I reckon you need to structure the case a bit better (sorry to be the boring one ;D just science brain talking  ) Some of us like to know what exactly we're doing to ourselves :wink: 
I've no doubt that the right combination of neurotransmitter agonising/antagonising agents could help to clear the mind, I would just be careful making claims that as yet are unsubstantiated, even though the preliminary testing is apparently going well (thenewguy, as you say but there are other long termers on here who either don't appear to be trying it or just haven't posted anything about their trials?)

Plus you have said yourself this may not be the answer for everyone. There are many people who have recovered without dosing up on your listed supplements before now.

I am not trying to be a killjoy (honest!) but I do think you need to be cautious when instilling hope into people that you CANNOT guarantee. Particularly with DP.
Also we've already had a couple of cases of people overdoing the serotonin-increasing elements of your treatment. I think there should be big bold maybe even red warnings somewhere on the list cos serotonergic syndrome ain't funny..


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## FoXS (Nov 4, 2009)

yeah. sometimes i ask myself if the user Tommygunz in reality works for a pharmaceutical company, i mean for the manufacturer of these medicines haha :mrgreen: 
just joking :wink:


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

when i have time to write out the mechanisms of action i will, if thats what you need. i only included what people needed to know, i took the painstaking burden of figuring out what i was doing to myself and liked what i found. if you notice, i removed some ingredients and added new ones, that make it even safer and infinitly more effective. my question is, almost everyone on here is willing to try pharmiceuticals with damn near a guarentee of no benefit, yet i propose a safe natural remedy that will do exactly what it claims to do, and people all over the place question it. no it's not to good to be true. it simply is not promoted by pharmiceutical companies because it isn't profitable for them. why would the medical establishment recognize a supplement program that would not profit from all of the funding they have provided in research. furthermore, they don't even know the mechanism of action with SSRI's, yet almost everyone in this forum has tried them. my point with posting this formula was not to provide a "cure". it was to provide an effective alternative. i'm not saying "TRY IT". i'm saying, if your still on this forum looking for answers and treatment after trying everything you can think of, try this. no, it won't work for eveyone. it will work for many though, and that makes it worth promoting. also if you remember from my main thread on this in alternative remedies and therapies. Dr. Sierra want's me to log therapeutic benefit for those who try it, so he can recommend it for a controled double blind placebo study. in a nutshell, it will correct serotonergic and dopaminergic dysregulation and increase alpha brain waves to promote mental clarity and cognitive control, and with the addition of some supplements that i have not published yet, it will increase GABA production and activity and increas oxygen to the brain. overall eliminating anxiety, depression, OCD, panic, agorophobia, and brain fog.


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## CindyinMontana (Nov 10, 2009)

I called my local health store today and set up an appointment with a nutritionist for tomorrow. She is going to help me obtain the supplements on TommyGunz list as well as double check to make sure the levels are safe, etc. I guess what I am saying is that if you are worried about the safety of TommyGunz list, do a little work yourself or get some further consulting before you make personal decisions. I have put in a ton of time researching supplements myself and have purchased at least fifteen health reference books over the past year and I like sharing information because it's more clues towards finding answers. I like having the information because it gives me more choices.


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2009)

Tommygunz said:


> when i have time to write out the mechanisms of action i will, if thats what you need. i only included what people needed to know, i took the painstaking burden of figuring out what i was doing to myself and liked what i found. if you notice, i removed some ingredients and added new ones, that make it even safer and infinitly more effective. my question is, almost everyone on here is willing to try pharmiceuticals with damn near a guarentee of no benefit, yet i propose a safe natural remedy that will do exactly what it claims to do, and people all over the place question it. no it's not to good to be true. it simply is not promoted by pharmiceutical companies because it isn't profitable for them. why would the medical establishment recognize a supplement program that would not profit from all of the funding they have provided in research. furthermore, they don't even know the mechanism of action with SSRI's, yet almost everyone in this forum has tried them. my point with posting this formula was not to provide a "cure". it was to provide an effective alternative. i'm not saying "TRY IT". i'm saying, if your still on this forum looking for answers and treatment after trying everything you can think of, try this. no, it won't work for eveyone. it will work for many though, and that makes it worth promoting. also if you remember from my main thread on this in alternative remedies and therapies. Dr. Sierra want's me to log therapeutic benefit for those who try it, so he can recommend it for a controled double blind placebo study. in a nutshell, it will correct serotonergic and dopaminergic dysregulation and increase alpha brain waves to promote mental clarity and cognitive control, and with the addition of some supplements that i have not published yet, it will increase GABA production and activity and increas oxygen to the brain. overall eliminating anxiety, depression, OCD, panic, agorophobia, and brain fog.


Gah. I'm not criticising you for providing an alternative method, I am just saying be careful. Wicked stuff re Dr Sierra. Be interested to see the results although I imagine it will be a pretty long time considering how long trials usually take.

Also, you can't really say it's safe when you don't know the long term effects. For example, messing with dopamine, which it is believed an excess of causes psychosis, may contribute to schizophrenia, can cause parkinsonism etc etc. 
Then there's the serotonergic syndrome. I mean already we had Zee Deveel overdoing it on the serotonin agonists, and I have seen you warn another guy that he was overdoing it too - brilliant that you noticed and warned, but perhaps the warning should be clearer on the original posts?

'if you want to get better read this' kind of screams 'try this' to me but maybe I'm reading it wrong?

Yes, sorry, but I am one of the people that need to know why things do what they do. Unfortunately for me, I have an ever-enquiring mind  Particularly as with dopamine, it could in actual fact be either low dopamine or high dopamine contributing to symptoms. For example, in fight or flight, your dopamine drops and adrenaline increases - this should later be reversed by the 'safe' feeling and one thing I have been theorising is that we get stuck in the bit in between - i.e. the 'safe' feeling doesn't happen so the brain stays in the high adrenaline low dopamine state. In this case, then you would want to MAYBE raise dopamine but it's such an intricate and sensitive balance, with so many factors - like the fact that there are so many types of dopamine receptor - so that while raising/lowering dopamine might do one thing that you want, it might also then do ten other things you don't. Finding things that trigger the correct receptors etc must be incredibly difficult.

I have a science degree and background, a high IQ and an enquiring mind so I am sorry if I comes across as critical, it is just that there are so many unanswered questions etc and for me a bit of background on the ingredients don't cut it  In fact, I think everyone should be more educated about what they are consuming, rather than just on a need to know basis but that's just a personal opinion. People will ALWAYS question something new and relatively untested - if you're going to do a proper study then prepare yourself for a hell of a lot 'worse' than anything I have ever asked/said!

Its interesting that you mention GABA - I have been theorising for a while that I am low in it. Might look back into that.
I also tried stimulating alpha-waves a couple of years back with an Alpha-Stim, didn't have much luck though it just made me feel weird most of the time. I did persist for a while too. In fact I wonder where it is maybe I should give it another shot 

I think I msged you before asking for more info anyway? I am sure you have been very busy with it all just it might shut me up  Also I would be interested to know your background too 

Oh and here's a pretty good article on our friend Dopamine, if you're interested

http://www.caringmedical.com/media/arti ... cle_id=520


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2009)

CindyinMT said:


> I called my local health store today and set up an appointment with a nutritionist for tomorrow. She is going to help me obtain the supplements on TommyGunz list as well as double check to make sure the levels are safe, etc. I guess what I am saying is that if you are worried about the safety of TommyGunz list, do a little work yourself or get some further consulting before you make personal decisions. I have put in a ton of time researching supplements myself and have purchased at least fifteen health reference books over the past year and I like sharing information because it's more clues towards finding answers. I like having the information because it gives me more choices.


Yeah and you are very sensible but all I am saying is you can't assume that everyone is like you, which I have learned from bitter experience. There's already been 2 people who have potentially been overdoing the serotonergic elements of the treatment. It really does need a neon flashing warning, as it can be FATAL. :/


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## CindyinMontana (Nov 10, 2009)

Phasedout...Thanks for the warnings, I really appreciate it. I am also glad that question things because it is even more information for me to look at. I think it's good to want to understand it further. I would like to also. I didn't realize it could be fatal. Of course we are also all paranoid of making things worse by trying something...or even worse, things improve for awhile and then get even worse than they were originally. Long term effects. I know this, I got better without any supplements and no information regarding this disorder the first time this happened to me twenty years ago. Sometimes I wonder if knowing too much is tripping me up.


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## CindyinMontana (Nov 10, 2009)

Interesting article on dopamine


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

good article, i find it in agreement with what i have learned. your right, i do need to add a warning. i deleted a lot of stuff when i revised the post the second time and i simply forgot to put it back on. although the main things that really needed warnings were taken out. thats partially why i revised things, i found safer, more effective supplements. i think the most severe side effect from any supplement was diarrhea, and it was only in very high doses, and very rare. part of the reason i picked the supplements that i did, was because of the fact that almost all of them had no negative reported side effects. give me a little time on the nitty gritty behind all of this, i'm not the worlds fastest typer and there is much to discuss. for now if your not comfortable trying it, thats cool. but if what your doing now isn't cutting, i would say, "why not give it a try". even from that article SSRI's will probably screw you up in the long run more than many other things. especially vitamins and herbs. as of right now there are only three people that i know of (other than myself) who are actively using the regimen properly and communicating the results to me, and all are seeing the same therapeutic benefit as myself. so, for right now until further notice, this treatment is 4 and 0. which is a pretty good record this early in the game. mind you, i'm not running around willy nilly saying "i cured DP", but i am celebrating the fact that 4 people with DP/DR feel better than they have since the day they got it, and will probably feel even better tomorrow.

P.S. - i have no formal training, simply a desire to understand my mind. also my girlfriend is a psychology major, so she's been helpful with some of the tougher questions i've come across.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2009)

It does indeed, but I am still in two minds about dopamine, as to whether it is elevated or depleted levels that might contribute, or in fact both may have an effect, in different people. If I remember correctly it wasn't the levels so much as the regulation of it that you were focusing on? The reason for my quandrary as I said before, is that there's a drop when you go into fight or flight, which technically could produce the DP symptoms - but I think some of the stuff you found, and that article, is giving some of the symptoms of DP as symptoms of too much dopamine? However Monoamine oxididase inhibitors, (the last-resort, very powerful anti depressants which can also be used for Parkinsons) inhibit monoamine oxidase (no shit :roll: ) preventing the breakdown of monoamine neurotransmitters i.e. dopamine, serotonin, melatonin, epinephrine and norepinephrine ( the last 4 only MAO-A inhibitors) so raise your dopamine levels - one would therefore think that taking these would help, BUT epinephrine is our old friend adrenaline so perhaps that could be interfering. Oh the endless possibilities once you start delving :lol:


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## CindyinMontana (Nov 10, 2009)

I met with a nutritional consultant today and he thought things looked relatively safe on Tommy's list. We both thought the vit. D amount (400 IU) seemed low. He had just read an article stating that one could safely take up to 10,000 IU per day. I was recommended by my homeopathic doctor (according to my weight which is 120#) to take 5,000 IU a day. Again, I live where there is not a lot of sunshine. My doc thought that my low levels of vit D may have been a contributing trigger to this whole thing. I have heard from a few doctors speculation that deficiencies in vit d could be a major contributor to depression and many other mental problems...fyi. I did purchase everything on the list, some I already had and the total cost was $91.00. I am sure someone could do it cheaper, I just happen to be sort of picky about the vitamin companies that I use. The only changes I made to Tommy's regimen is that I am going to start with half the dose of l theanine (100mg instead of 200) and also 100mg instead of 250mg of rhodiola rosea. I have always been sensitive to things, more than the average, so I just want to play it safe, especially after learning more about seratonin and dopamine. If I don't feel a big improvement and I also don't feel any negative side effects, I may increase the amounts. If I do feel great, then great. I am also going to continue taking what I have been taking: 1000mg of St. John's Wort (which also raises serotonin levels), as well as a daily pro-biotic. For now, I am going to stop taking the 5HTP.

A question: Does anyone know the effects of coming off of supplements? I just don't want to become "dependent" on these pills for dopamine and serotonin regulation or anything. I don't even know if that is possible. I know this is all a shot in the dark to some extent but I would be open to hearing thoughts or possible theories. I think it's interesting what Phaseout has to say about dop. levels depending on symptoms or the way the person is dp'd. I guess if people can come off of prescription drugs by weaning themselves, the same can be said for a milder version.

Also of interest...the owner of the vitamin store appreciated my business and the large quantity that I purchased, I was also given a 15% discount...make sure you ask, never hurts! He said I could always have that discount! It saved me $17.

I will let you know how this goes...day 1, all vitamins taken.

Cindy


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2009)

Cindy: very wise to stick to the st johns wort and not supplement 5HTP as this will, I think ensure you aren't overdoing the serotonin aspect.

The dopamine thing is VERY subjective - there are many different types of dopamine receptor so as I have said, even if you get the desired effect you could also then get 10 other undesirable effects as well.......it all depends very much on the person.

Re: what you say about not wanting to depend on supplements - you have absolutely the right attitute, considering the majority of people will never have to supplement,there is NO reason why once you have fixed an imbalance, you should have to supplement for ever.


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

thats true phasedout, another part of the supplement list is the fact that if you continue with the program minus, l-theanine, choline, inositol and rhodiola rosea, the rest of the vitamins will work to maintain homeostasis, granted you don't do anything to mess it up. thats why i hand picked the supplements i chose. they all work to acheive appropriate balance. none on my list have any indications of doing anything harmful, only, putting you back to where your supposed to be.


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## CindyinMontana (Nov 10, 2009)

Hi Tommy,
I really felt the affect of the vitamins today. Noticed that I was smiling, for no reason, just content while driving. I also wasn't affected by the lighting in my house like I usually am at night. Just felt happy and grounded for most of the day. I did have one little freak out where I felt really different, differently than I usually do with dp and it sort of scared me. It felt like someone else's dp but I was experiencing it, if that makes any sense. It was during my usual hardest time of the day, around 7pm right before I have to put my kids to sleep...so stress I am sure was a factor. Overall, the good outweighed the bad and I think my body was just adjusting. I am going to continue with the same dosage tomorrow and if I feel a little freaky again, I may tweak dosages.

Do you own the book Prescription for Nutritional Healing? It's an amazing resource book, one of my faves. I did a little research in there today that I wanted to share with you. You may already know this but it might be nice to pass on to others doing your vitamin suggestions.

-Vitamin C works synergistically with Vit E so when they are taken together they have an effect even greater than the sum of their individual effects. Long term users of Vit C and E in combo seem to have higher cognitive abilities as they age. Another great reason to add E: a deficiency may result in destruction of nerves.

-Calcium and Magnesium should be taken together before bedtime for two reasons. 1. The combo helps the user slip into a deep sleep about three hours after taking it. 2. Calcium and Iron should never be taken together because it interferes with both mineral's absorption. Also, Calcium has been shown to be better absorbed when taken in two doses rather than one...supposedly our body can only absorb 500mg at a time. So maybe take iron in the am then 1/2 calcium at lunch and 1/2 dinner?

-Taking iron long term can be dangerous. Iron is stored in the body, excessive iron in the tissues and organs leads to the production of free radicals and increases the need for vit E (another great reason to add E). High levels of iron can also contribute to heart disease and cancer. I may switch to taking this once a week. I know that iron deficiency can increase the risk of panic attacks but if you are not deficient in it, you may not need it. I may also switch to Floradix because it's a natural source of iron, although it is super disgusting in taste.

-Also Vit E and iron should not be taken together. I am going to add E and take it at night with my Cal/mag. I am also going to start taking my vit D at night because Vit D should be taken with calcium.

-Vit C when taken as a chewable can damage tooth enamel. I may switch mine to a gel cap.

Thanks again for your proactive approach! You are awesome for communicating your ideas and recovery.

~Cindy
p.s I tried to send this to you privately but I couldn't get it to work!


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

awesome info, i will adjust things accordingly. that is the one area i needed to be more clear on, is how to take them. i just hadn't figured out the best way yet so i didn't mention it. so thank you. that helps a lot. and thank you for being so proactive.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2009)

CindyinMT said:


> Do you own the book Prescription for Nutritional Healing? It's an amazing resource book, one of my faves. I did a little research in there today that I wanted to share with you. You may already know this but it might be nice to pass on to others doing your vitamin suggestions.


I have that! I bought it when I was doing my nutritional therapy course  I only did the certificate level though and then had to put it on hold, as I am currently doing the ACCA accountancy qualification and wouldn't have time to do both but am hoping to resume once I finish ACCA


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## CindyinMontana (Nov 10, 2009)

It's the main book I look in when I am ill. I am a resource book junkie! I've owned every edition since they began printing them. FYI, In that book it says excessive amounts of Vit. D can be toxic but there have been new studies that say you can safely take up to 10,000 IU/day. I am glad you have this book, it's a goodie. So are you studying to be an accountant? I find that when I do bookkeeping for our restaurant, I feel totally normal. Numbers are a good distraction. Someday I may go back to college to study nutrition...it's always been an interest. Probably because my mother used alternative forms of healing on us as children. She is very knowledgeable with herbs.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2009)

CindyinMT said:


> It's the main book I look in when I am ill. I am a resource book junkie! I've owned every edition since they began printing them. FYI, In that book it says excessive amounts of Vit. D can be toxic but there have been new studies that say you can safely take up to 10,000 IU/day. I am glad you have this book, it's a goodie. So are you studying to be an accountant? I find that when I do bookkeeping for our restaurant, I feel totally normal. Numbers are a good distraction. Someday I may go back to college to study nutrition...it's always been an interest. Probably because my mother used alternative forms of healing on us as children. She is very knowledgeable with herbs.


Yes I am, although I'm not sure what I'll do with it eventually, project management interests me, as does fraud investigation and pretty much everything in the world ;D The good thing is that ACCA is globally recognised and much more 'adaptable' than it used to be  
BUT I think anything related to finance would only ever be a means to an end for me, enabling me to study in my spare time, as I think I will always want to be studying something in order to not get bored!
You're totally right about numbers, I get the same thing - perhaps because I have always found maths very logical and straightforward. (I did up to a-level)


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## CindyinMontana (Nov 10, 2009)

Oh, sorry! I don't know why I thought you were a guy! Thanks for the picture.

I stopped taking some of the vitamins today. I had a really bad dp day yesterday. Today has been great so far. Like I said in an earlier post, I am particularly sensitive to things so I don't want to discourage anyone from trying the vitamins. I think everyone has a cure that works for them. Every person's chemical make up is different. There are so many factors that make each of our bodies/minds unique, it would be impossible to have one remedy that worked for all! I basically just dropped the vitamins out that raise serotonin and dopamine levels. I'm still taking the B's, D's, C's, E, fish oil, St. John's wort, Cal, Mag, etc.

I felt the worst that I have felt in about 6 months yesterday. I use a rating system to describe my symptoms. 1-10 scale, 1 being "feeling normal" and 10 is full on dp and panic. Yesterday I stayed at a 8 or 9 all day and it hardly let up! In the beginning of my recovery I was like that and then, as I improved, I had days with 5's and 6's. Recently though, I have been able to keep it in the 1-3 range. Part of the reason I took the vitamins was because I was getting impatient and wanted to say that I was 100% cured. What's nice is that just by not taking the vitamins today, I feel back to that 1-3 level. I actually feel like I am at a 2, almost 1 right now. I snapped myself out of the dangerous 3 P's earlier (pessimism, pity, panic)...I was starting to feel really mentally exhausted earlier today and feel sorry for myself. Then I stopped the cycle and started writing a song on my guitar and now I feel amazing.

So, it's worth the risk because if it doesn't work for you, just stop taking them and, if you stay calm, you can be right back to where you were before. That's how it was for me anyway. I am going to overcome this! I am really hopeful! That's interesting that you had seizures, Phaseout. I had seizures as a child, until the age of 5. I mysteriously outgrew them. I always wondered if they were related to this condition...


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2009)

I used to use a scale. Somewhere along the line I stopped doing it. I think it is counterproductive in the long run.

I personally don't think you can just take supplements for this. 
I refer you to this post viewtopic.php?f=33&t=20930&p=181074#p181074
(don't get offended, the blunt bit isn't aimed at you, you seem pretty screwed on - add me on msn if you like, I'm outta here!)


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## CindyinMontana (Nov 10, 2009)

"The Highest good is like water, effortlessly nourishing everything as it flows to the lowest places. In actions, keep close to the land - feet on the ground. In thinking, explore the depths. With others, be kind, flexible, and careful with words. To struggle with others will only create blame. Having expectations only manifests confusion. Try stopping the river and there will be floods. Better to flow with the downward course to humility. From birth to death the direction is clear - yield and change like water." 
LAO TZU

Humour defeats Anguish
Patience deflates Anxiety
Appreciation deflects Boredom
Simplicity defies Expectations
Creativity derives Meaning
Integrity defines Self

I agree with you. Let's stay in touch! ~Cindy


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