# issues with existence



## Corduroy28 (Jun 21, 2007)

in anyone's ruminating do people kind of reach this level of desolate truth about human existance? like that its all absurd and pointless? I honestly dont mean to scare anyone here, and if it feels like i am, feel free to stop reading. Lately ive just been thinking about the process of life and how we are just a bunch of chemicals and nothing more, and its really just made everything so much worse. what little relationships with people i had before now just seem arbitrary and pointless, along with everything i do. its impossible to find meaning as the very definition of "meaning" is in ultimate reality "meaningless". there is no such thing as free will as we are just an incredibley complex physical function being executed and every thought which we will ever have is governed by a physical chemical reaction occurring.

I'm just wondering what helps you guys escape these overwealmingly dark thoughts? i know that my DP won't go away if i stop thinking about it, but at least i wont experience that feeling of utter desolation all the time.


----------



## Guest (Feb 24, 2008)

I've been thinking about it too, but it's just the DR. I know it never bothered me before that. Could just be that your detached from those things that once meant something to you.


----------



## cromanyak (Aug 19, 2007)

That's nihilism. I've reached that point too while pondering many times, but ultimately it's a contrived state of mind. Not reality. When your in a more balanced or natural state things don't look that way. If you stop feeding it it will eventually dissapate.

Chris


----------



## Corduroy28 (Jun 21, 2007)

you guys are definately right about that, but then i keep getting these thoughts like "you would have eventually come to these conclusions with or without your DP" which don't help. Its just so hard let myself just "be" with these kinds of thoughts always there.


----------



## chick (Feb 13, 2008)

That feeling of existential angst is the worst! And yes it is part of derealization. I went to a woman named Yuliya Cohen in Brookline Mass. after years of this on and off and she truly understood me! http://www.yuliyacohen.com. She is a medical intuitive and healer. I encourage you to reach out to her. Best...


----------



## Avenged (Feb 21, 2008)

holy crap u expressed exactly how i feel. Its absolutely horrible......I don't know what to do when it happens either. It ruins everything and makes me so stressed and tortured and alone.


----------



## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Feeling the mysterious nature of your own being, irrespective of the details, is the only way out. Don't judge yourself for the contents of what you are, or even the contents of relationships. It is miraculous we all exist even when we cannot feel it.


----------



## Dymphna (Feb 27, 2008)

I agree Rozanne

Life in any scenario is hard to explain without mystery somehow entering into the picture, as reason and rationality can only take us so far. I have found they don't take me very far when I am DP/DR. I trust in faith that the feeling of realness will return again and it usually does at least for a while. Why it tends to come and go is also often a mystery to me.

Dymphna


----------



## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Yep I've been there. Can't say I enjoyed it. I used to think very much the same way, saying there can be no free will because everything that happened ws just a series of molecular collisions with the variables set up from the big bang. Well for starters that idea is very newtonian and field theory, string theory and quantum mechanics completely blow it out of the water.

I think the problem is that in a DP'd mind we are focussing totally on the rational and physical to the exclusion of all else (i.e. emotions, intuition, mystery, spirit). If your entire world view is based on that, is it any wonder the world becomes a lifeless place devoid of meaning?

At least what worked for me is reconnecting to your emotions, your empathic link to other people, your intuition and of course the spirit of existence. It takes time but gradually the world gets some "colour" back and you start to feel more real.


----------



## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Is life meaningless if we don't have control? 
I believe we do have choice, spiritually, for instance to forgive.
And we can heal a lot of life
But does it matter we are biologically "programmed" to a degree?
I don't think it matters that much. 
A cat is biologically in sync, so is a bird.
They aren't made any less for it.
It's just how life works.
Life itself is a big mysterious miracle. 
I get scared looking at the loneliness of the planets in space.


----------



## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

We always have control of our own lives, it just doesn't seem like it sometimes. Its easier to think that we don't have control because then we can blame other people or external events for our bad situation.

You get scared looking at the stars? It always fills me with such hope and inspiration, though it saddens me I'll never see them all up close.


----------



## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

Corduroy I have had many of the same thoughts that you are talking about in this thread.

They have made it very hard for me to have any faith at all in God. But I do believe in God and I do believe their is meaning to our lives, the full meaning of human life is just not being fully realized at the moment I think.

We have these dark thoughts for a reason. 
Life could be much much brighter and better for all of us and then we would not be thinking about the point in life because we would be living the point and the point would be obvious.

I say that just based on my own experience.

I have lived the meaning of life and during those times I never wondered about why I was here or about the pointlessness of our existence because at those times I did not view life as "pointless". Life only became pointless to me as a result of my DP/DR and my over focusing upon the bad things in this world.

So no matter what knowledge you have or no matter what your beliefs are, just realize that life does have a lot of meaning. Just because you can not feel this meaning or be a part of it right now does not mean that their is no meaning. It just means that you have been disconnected from this meaning. You have been disconnected from even your own identity. This is basically what DP is all about. We should not be spending all our time trying to figure out the meaning of life. If we are doing this then it is likely that we will be missing out on the meaning of life. The meaning of life is not a riddle that you can figure out. It is much more simple then that. It is very simple actually. One of the most simple aspects is "love". Love is one thing that can not exist without life. If you do not believe their is any meaning in life then you do not know what love is at all and you do not find any meaning or value in love because love is a part of what makes us human. It is these simple things that have been lost from the human race and that is why now more then ever before, people are pondering and wondering about the meaning of life rather then living it.

CECIL
I would not be so sure about your future.

What makes you so sure that you will not be able to one day see the stars up close?

When you look into the sky at the stars what comes to mind?
It is a humbling experience for me to do this and it makes me realize how tiny I am and how tiny my thoughts are. 
This is why I can not say for sure that my future is going to be dark or light because I realize that the force controlling the universe is far greater then I am and so I leave my future in the hands of that one. For me, I consider this force to be Jehovah God as you already know. Whatever you believe this force to be though, you should still feel humbled when contemplating this force and the vastness of the universe. So don't be so sure that you know the limits to your own existence, their may be far more in your future then you assume their to be.

I think that a lot of these issues that people have with DP/DR are actually spiritual in nature. 
The issues people have with existence for example. This is a spiritual problem, not a mental one. 
Yet this issue is related with DP/DR all the time.

It is my personal opinion that spiritual darkness and negative thinking is a great contributer to DP/DR for many people. This is why I think it is very important to focus on good and positive things and to also build up our spirituality. Their are some very simple things that you can do in order to turn your thoughts back into a positive direction. Just focus on something that is "good". You know the song from "The Sounds of Music"? "Raindrops on Roses and whiskers on kittens"? Whatever brightens up your own mind and your own spirituality is what you should focus on. When you focus on the dark thoughts then everything about your existence is only going to get darker and darker.

My observation about the meaning of life for each individual is really depending upon each individual. 
The meaning of one persons life may be a very dark one while the meaning of another persons life may be very bright. Still their are some who have very little meaning one way or the other. I personally believe this has a lot to do with the choices we make and the beliefs that we choose to put our faith into.

I think that if you spend your time finding ways to brighten up the meaning of your own life then you will have less trouble with DP/DR. I think that this is a much more productive action then wasting your thoughts on wondering about the meaning of life. "Meaning" is something we must create. If we do not create the meaning then their will be none or it will be a very dark one. So what we should be doing is focusing all our energy in order to create a positive meaning for our own lives and for all of humanity.

Corduroy, I think my point is that the meaning to life is not going to just fall into your lap. 
If you are just thinking about it and not doing anything to create positive meaning then you will not ever find any positive meaning I don't think. Humanity could be capable of many great and positive things. We have achieved many great and positive things already but I think that the possibilities are endless! So the meaning of life I think can be something that will only get brighter and brighter as time goes on. Although it is up to us I think. I think we also have the option to just destroy ourselves. Really I fully believe it is completely up to us. So their is no point in wasting time thinking about the meaning of life. We should get busy creating positive meaning then we will all know what the meaning of life is because it will be very clear to us, it will be the meaning that we ourselves are creating for ourselves.

I think we have all been creating a lot of darkness and this is why more and more people are getting illnesses like DP/DR. Humanity needs to change direction but even if it don't, we ourselves can personally choose to go against the flow of things and go into a positive direction with our lives so that we have meaning in our own lives personally even if the rest of humanity is lost in darkness. When it comes to us who suffer from Dp/DR, I think this problem with issues about identifying with our own existence has gotten to an emergency condition. We need to take very positive action and very quickly. What the action is will be up to each one of us individually but it is clear to me that action (into a positive direction) does need to be taken very quickly.

My grand point here is simply to take positive action and take that action now and never stop going into a positive direction. This involves everything about our lives. From the thoughts we think down to the job we choose or the music we listen to. We create our own reality as we are going along. Brainwashing is a term used by a lot of people but what many people do not understand about brainwashing is that we are all basically brainwashing ourselves all the time. We are creating our own reality. So why not create a positive reality and create positive meaning for our own lives rather then creating darkness or just letting the darkness around us cover over us so that we become totally disconnected?

Take action and do something positive with your life (whatever that is, it's up to you).


----------



## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)




----------



## Avenged (Feb 21, 2008)

You know, it happened again to me last night. I got an "attack" of these existential "chemical" thoughts. It is now 4:45 am and I was so distraught by these thoughts that I woke up this early and could not go back to bed. One thing is for sure. Arguing or trying to disprove or rationalize the thoughts when they come is almost entirely useless. This is such a weird thing to have...I can remember it started first occuring to me around 15. Its never stopped since. Its like I glimpse something that I don't like. Some aspect of something I perceive to be "scary" and it just goes from there. For me I'm quite sure I'll get the thought/image flash through my head, and then I get this cold/empty/scary feeling and the DP will follow almost instantaneously. Its as if I'm watching my "chemicals" from space. Its so hard to describe to other people, but Corduroy said it just as if I had said it my own mouth. I think the thoughts come first, but then the feeling experience of DP becomes the main problem.

Here's what to not do:

Don't try to argue with or rationalize away the thoughts. Don't panic about them. Don't try to get the "right feeling" when they come...don't sit there trying to get in touch with your soul or anything. Also don't ruminate about existance.

What to do:

Let these stupid thoughts pass through your head. Everyone has thoughts they dont like but they pass on through. Somehow we get stuck on the bad ones we don't want. Actually by sitting there with it and ignoring it you are doing more to make it go away. And ultimately this will get you feeling better than trying to "think" yourself out of it.


----------



## DRyan (Jan 19, 2008)

its not just the DR... there is great meaning in what he is saying.. His thoughts reached the same dead end that crippled me for years. Just because most people are naturally content and don't need a reason to live doesn't mean this is meaningless symptom of a disorder. It may be easier to ignore this shit but remaining stubbornly ignorant just because its easy is... well it makes me angry just thinking about it. With these I came to the conclusion that if there is no god, there is NO 'reason' or 'purpose' to do ANYTHING that isn't null and void in death. Morality would be just faulty relative opinion, and everything we hold in such absolute high regard is pointless. I won't pretend to know if there is a god/higher power or not, but if not, this is all a pointless fucking game with no eternal or absolute consequences. Like you implied, if nothing was there to create these 'chemicals', all there _is_, is chemicals.

If you agree that animals' actions/lives are sort of just the pointless result of chemicals, try looking at the 'person' from an outside point of view. What makes us different? Just like a dog has more intelligence than a crab, we have more intelligence than a dog. With no god there are no absolutes, it is all relative. I don't care about your responses to this. If you want to have a discussion thats one thing, we might learn how to understand each other better, but don't waste your time responding with pointless hostility unless that makes you yourself feel better.

Whatever. Just don't ignore these thoughts, but realize the meaning behind them and decide how to apply them to your life. Of course, if you refuse to believe in god, you might just want to bury this shit to make yourself more comfortable until your consciousness is removed from existence.


----------



## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

Avenged and DRyan I actually agree with both of you in a way.

I don't want to go into the topic of religion here anymore. I avoid that topic here as much as possible now because I know what will happen.

But spirituality is different then talking about direct beliefs. 
And I think that this is a topic people should try to talk more about around here.

Love is probably the most important thing.

Love is my proof that we posses free will and it is my proof for many other good things.

I totally understand the DP/DR thoughts, I suffered very seriously for many years with these thoughts and feelings.

It is now very clear to me though that their is a very good reason for our existence. For me, this subject has a lot to do with my beliefs but I don't want to get into a debate about beliefs.

I would just like to add that rather then just ignoring the bad thoughts and accepting them, we should also focus as much as we can upon the good and positive aspects of life.
Rather then just trying to ignore the bad thoughts or trying to force your mind out of the darkness that it can go into sometimes. It is better to try and focus on something positive, then your entire mind will be shifted into a positive direction. 
Whatever this positive thing is does not really matter. It is up to you. Whatever is the most positive thought or the most positive idea you can think of, this is what you should think about. 
I have a long list of positive things that I like to think about and remind myself about when I am feeling like my mind is going into darkness. I won't list these things because some people may not agree with my list and as I said, I don't want to get involved in another debate on a mental illness website. It is important for people to dwell upon their own positive thoughts anyway and not the thoughts of others. Find your own bright thoughts and when your thinking in a dark way and you feel these horrible thoughts taking hold on your mind then remind yourself of the good things. Their may not be anything much good in your own personal life but still focus on what is good in the universe. Their are many good aspects to life and their is meaning to life, it's just not filtering down to all of us all the time. So I think we all need to remind ourselves of the good things.

Their are some people I know who have spent decades being tortured in prison simply because of their belief in God and their dedication for God. People who have been put in prison and tortured simply because they would not join their nations military and fight in war for their corrupt political leaders. Some of these people were in the prison camps in Nazi Germany. These people I believe were able to survive and survive with a smile on their face partly because of their positive thinking. If they would have let themselves focus upon their own misery and their own imprisoned existence then these people probably would not have survived with their faith and their happiness and joy for life still in tact. Regardless of your beliefs or your faith, their is a lesson to be learned from such examples. We are really capable of enduring many horrible things if our thoughts are in a positive place. If our thoughts are in a negative place then we probably won't be able to even endure being alive in the most pleasurable environment.

I don't think we should fight away these DP/DR thoughts as much as we should just turn away from them and turn towards more positive thoughts. If we focus on things that are positive yet simple, such as the quality of "love" then I think the positive will get ride of the negative all by itself.

It is hard to believe that life is pointless or that we are simply a collection of particles without free will if you spend a great deal of time considering values of life such as the quality and full meaning of "love". And if you are spending a great deal of your time trying to display your own love towards others then I believe that this only helps to add to your own personal meaning in life and this in turn will make the negative and DP/DR thoughts go away.

Thoughts do not just come from nowhere. Our thoughts do not really just pop into our minds. They are created by our minds. If we all spend as much time as possible training our minds to focus on positive things then our thoughts will be more positive and so will our feelings. I think that this is more productive then anything else. When it comes to mental illness I think that we have more power over our own sickness then anyone. No drug or doctor will ever have more power over our own thoughts then we ourselves have. And it is our thoughts that can drive us insane or drive us to excel in life.

If it were not for our thoughts then we would simply be a lump of flesh. 
But we do have thoughts and we have consciousness and awareness of our own existence and free will. 
What we do with these things is up to us and in turn the outcome of the meaning of our own lives is really up to us. 
We can drive ourselves insane or we can drive ourselves to really live life to the fullest and really live our life the way I believe God intended for us to live. If you do not believe in God then you should still see the value in what I am talking about here.

I believe that us people who suffer from DP/DR are really indeed very sick. But I also think that we do have a great amount of power to help ourselves and to cure ourselves from the things that torment us. And I believe it is possible for someone who is completely disconnected to "reconnect", it is just a matter of choice I think.



> remaining stubbornly ignorant just because its easy is... well it makes me angry just thinking about it.


Yeah same here. 
Apathy is not something I would ever promote. 
I do not even promote apathy towards bad things. 
Accepting and ignoring bad things is different then being totally apathetic about life in general. I see a lot of people living in ignorance and it really makes me sick to think about it. But rather then focusing on this, I think it is better and more positive to do something about it. Taking positive action against these bad things is the best answer. If you are just apathetic then you will not ever be completely happy, their will always be something missing from your life I think. And if you spend all your time focusing on bad things then that is even worse. If we get up and do something positive to change things that we don't like then we will be mentally healthy I think.

I hate ignorance for example. So all I can do that is positive about this would be to inform myself about things and try to teach others and to get other people to be aware of some of the things I am aware of. This is part of the reason I am writing this post right now.  It is beneficial to myself as well as others. 
Maybe I am no benefit to others but what really matters is that I am doing my best. Even if I become completely retarded, I know that all that really matters is that I give my best for what is positive and good. Then I believe the dark thoughts and the dark feelings will have no hold on me. It is the same for everyone I think.


----------



## Cam (Dec 13, 2006)

> in anyone's ruminating do people kind of reach this level of desolate truth about human existance? like that its all absurd and pointless? I honestly dont mean to scare anyone here, and if it feels like i am, feel free to stop reading. Lately ive just been thinking about the process of life and how we are just a bunch of chemicals and nothing more, and its really just made everything so much worse. what little relationships with people i had before now just seem arbitrary and pointless, along with everything i do. its impossible to find meaning as the very definition of "meaning" is in ultimate reality "meaningless". there is no such thing as free will as we are just an incredibley complex physical function being executed and every thought which we will ever have is governed by a physical chemical reaction occurring.
> 
> I'm just wondering what helps you guys escape these overwealmingly dark thoughts? i know that my DP won't go away if i stop thinking about it, but at least i wont experience that feeling of utter desolation all the time.


Does it really matter what we are made of. 
If you were just made of water 100% but still felt sentient would it really make any difference?
Look beyond what you are made of.
As for your quote there is no free will, sorry but that's bullshit.
Let me prove it, Hmm I think I will hit the letter G 3 times GGG, amazing, I actually hit that key 3 times. WOW!!!!!


----------



## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

wow that picture of the stars is rad


----------



## DRyan (Jan 19, 2008)

@lostone - nice post. Give it my all and I have no (rational) reason to fear anything. If I'm living by what I believe and think is right, fear of shame and failure are nothing. They are defeated. I'm content in this dream state as long as I let it serve its purpose in my life. It made me different in a very significant way. Its really a comforting realization, but for some reason it is really hard to give up the things that are keeping me from living by that realization. Thank you for reminding me of this idea. I've been telling the other guys in my band this lately, but it hadn't registered this way until someone said it back to me.



> But rather then focusing on this, I think it is better and more positive to do something about it. Taking positive action against these bad things is the best answer. If you are just apathetic then you will not ever be completely happy, their will always be something missing from your life I think. And if you spend all your time focusing on bad things then that is even worse. If we get up and do something positive to change things that we don't like then we will be mentally healthy I think.


The only thing that makes me content when I lay down at the end of the day is knowing there has been recent progress with my band. The messages I'm writing for the lyrics are my tool against stubborn ignorance. IMO too many people are just who they were taught to be... While we are/were young and open minded, social influences (particularly parental influences) are slammed on our lap, and our minds are often closed soon after. Parents typically try to make their children little versions of themselves without teaching them how to think for themselves. Its not ignorance I have a problem with, we are all ignorant. Its the apathy like you said, or the stubbornness of the ignorance that is sickening.


----------



## DRyan (Jan 19, 2008)

> Does it really matter what we are made of.
> If you were just made of water 100% but still felt sentient would it really make any difference?
> Look beyond what you are made of.
> As for your quote there is no free will, sorry but that's bullshit.
> Let me prove it, Hmm I think I will hit the letter G 3 times GGG, amazing, I actually hit that key 3 times. WOW!!!!!


It seems to me he's not so much focused on what we are made of, but he's realizing that if there _is_ nothing beyond these things, nothing matters.

"Free will" is just a phrase...a label.. lets not fight over the meaning of the label, thats like trying to decide who is 'emo' and 'goth'. Words are just labels, tools to express ideas, they aren't absolute in meaning. The meaning of words is no more than simple, relative, and insignificant opinion of where to draw the lines/what should encompass what, etc... The same type of shit that goes down in suburban high schools, its pathetic, .

He obviously understands he can use his mind or 'free will' to move his hand. Thats not the issue he's dealing with here. It all comes back to a higher power, an absolute, a meaning.

I know these thoughts are pretty abstract, I've been told thats how my mind works. I don't even realize it.

a little off topic- I've been noticing that the majority of people on the dp/dr forums are obviously very intelligent people. I don't think this is a coincidence.


----------



## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> If I'm living by what I believe and think is right


Thats a key thing their.

Go along with your own beliefs and your own preaching and you will probably be much more mentally and spiritually healthy. This goes even for people who say they believe in nothing or that they believe we are just here by accident. If you do not believe in God then don't blame God for all the bad things you see going on around you :wink: . In turn, if you do believe in God then you should be obeying your God rather then sinning against your own God and then blaming your God for the results of your own actions. Either way, their are a lot of hypocrites in this world I think. I also think this is a big part of the reason that so many people are mentally disturbed one way or another.

Take for example all the so called Christians who wage war and murder other human beings for the sake of their nation. Same with all the Muslims and many other religions. So many people are preaching all the time about love and about how God loves all of us and that we should love each other, yet these are the very people killing each other by the millions in warfare. It is little wonder why so many soldiers come back from the battlefield with serious mental problems.

I am not trying to trash peoples faith or beliefs. 
I am just trying to point out that most people trash their own beliefs and their own faith and this is really sad I think. I also think this is a big contributor to mental illness.

If we were all to follow a loving and good path and our beliefs were all in a loving direction and we all actually followed our own beliefs and really lived by them then I think almost all of humanities problems would be solved. The details are usually the things people focus on but the details are often just their to take away from what is really important. Christians can argue about some really, really small details about the bible for example. Meanwhile many of these so called Christians are killing each other in battle somewhere in the world. And most of the major Sins of the bible are being practiced on a daily basis. Just look at the number of people getting divorced in America and compare that to the number of proclaimed Christians in America. Obviously people are not living by their own beliefs or their own preaching.

This causes all kind of problems.

So what you said about living by your own beliefs is very important I think. 
So long as you are focusing on positive things and on good things rather then evil and selfish things. 
Because if we are just going to accept evil and put our faith into darkness then what really is the point to our lives?
It is clear their is no point if we are only believing in darkness and death. If the universe is going to expand into nothing except for a pool of radiation in a few billion years then what is the point in anything we are doing right now?? People who have these beliefs are dead already.

So I don't want to get into details about religious beliefs or spiritual paths but I just want to point out the difference in darkness and light. Their is a point and a meaning in putting your faith into light but if you are placing your thoughts and your beliefs into darkness then their is only vanity and pointlessness and death. So why even go down the path of darkness at all?

If your going into the direction that is light and you are actually living by your own beliefs then their should be nothing for you to ever complain about or get upset about. That is pretty clear to me now. It is the same for all of us.

If you are going against your own beliefs or you are putting faith in death, vanity and pointlessness then you will probably be miserable until you die. This is just an observation I have made about the people around me and about myself.

If one does not know the difference in light and darkness then I assume this one to be less than human or to be dead already. The sunny day sky and the star studded night sky are very clearly different and distinguishable. The details are not as important. It does not matter if their are 50 million visible stars in the night sky or if their are only 10 million. Either way, it is still the night sky and not the day sky. Get what I am saying here?

Many people will talk on and on about the details of what a day time sky should look like, yet these very people are living in complete darkness and their sky is always the night sky. This is why I have become sick debating the details with people. Because I know that the truth is that many people are only trying to distract themselves so that they can continue living in darkness. I don't want any part of it.

I just think I will keep trying to point out the larger picture and then only speak about the smaller details with people who are meek toward what is truly "good" and "light"

DRyan
What you said in your post makes me happy. 
Don't let outside influences (such as my own words I am speaking now) change what is inside of yourself. Most outside influences are bad ones I think. That is why I try to avoid putting to much stock into anything anyone tells me.

Fear is something that is part of being human but fear can be put to good use. We have fear for a reason, it serves a useful purpose. It is to our benefit that we have fear. It is how we use fear and the amount of attention and focus that we give to our fears that really makes the difference. One thing we should fear is the thoughts about the "meaninglessness of life" simply because this is a pointless thought. *Check the logic for yourself, don't just take my word for it (the truth should be clear to all of us).* Is their anything good that will come out of believing that we are all a pointless wast of space? Fear the right things and use the fear as a tool rather then using it as an excuse to avoid a problem. I think this is the key to living a good life.

We all know the difference in the "light" and the "darkness" 
I think we all just need to stop telling ourselves lies.

Dp/Dr should be something that motivates us, not something that inhibits our ability to live our lives the way we want to.

I see DP/DR as being a lot like death. It makes me feel like I am already dead. For this reason I have become aware of the vast pointlessness in Death. It is not life that is pointless or meaningless, it is death that is pointless and meaningless. And death is what people with DP/DR are entertaining. I know from experience. My DP/DR was basically a living death and sometimes it still is. This is something that motivates me though because I know that it is only a matter of time before true death will set in and then their will truly be nothing at all. So I try to make some use of the life that I have left in me. We should all wake up and take notice of the true value of the life that we are now living, rather then dwelling upon the pointlessness of our own pointless thoughts that we sometimes choose for ourself.

Sorry if I sound like a preacher or something but I am just trying to help people realize something that I think everyone already knows anyway. The truth about things should really be very clear to all of us. It is really very simple I think.


----------



## Cam (Dec 13, 2006)

DRyan said:


> It seems to me he's not so much focused on what we are made of, but he's realizing that if there is nothing beyond these things, nothing matters.
> 
> "Free will" is just a phrase...a label.. lets not fight over the meaning of the label, thats like trying to decide who is 'emo' and 'goth'. Words are just labels, tools to express ideas, they aren't absolute in meaning. The meaning of words is no more than simple, relative, and insignificant opinion of where to draw the lines/what should encompass what, etc... The same type of shit that goes down in suburban high schools, its pathetic, .
> 
> ...


Yes yes I know, you missed the point.
Let me put it another way, if everything is meaningless then why bother writing about it, what difference would it make.
If you truly believe that it's pointless you wouldn't even post. So, there must be a reason for posting no? You may say the reason is trying to find reason.
If there was no reason we wouldn't be here, there is a reason for everything. Everything has an effect on something.
He has realized just how small of a difference we make though, in the whole scheme of things.
He is looking at it from an inward perspective, viewed that way it does seem pointless. I was saying he needs to look beyond himself. For example, one grain of sand seems insignifcant right, billions of grains make a beach. You say that you notice a trend with DP sufferers, I notice one as well, a lot of us, not all, but a lot of us focus inward too much.



> I know these thoughts are pretty abstract, I've been told thats how my mind works. I don't even realize it.


It is how everyone's mind works unless you are 5


----------



## DRyan (Jan 19, 2008)

Preaching is what people like you and me do. I feel its a big purpose of my life. What your saying about addressing the real issue and not the trivial results of that issue is very important. The first song I play every show is the one that is only about opening your own mind to change (regardless of whether you are naturally content or not). Closed minds are the biggest problem, I believe, because it prevents change. It often takes pain to open a mind, otherwise change comes slow as their comfort zone expands. Its very frustrating to try and change someone's mind about an issue when they 'know' your wrong before you speak. The "issue" is just a result; a symptom of the real problem- their excessive attachment to their own opinion. Like the people who are refusing drugs for the wrong reasons- I think you can guess what I mean, but I can't think of the proper words to express the idea I'm feeling. Regardless, people are most often too stubborn to look at the issue from a mediator's perspective and see unbiased reasoning. I know at least in America (i would guess its human nature) people confuse tradition with 'right' and drastic change with 'wrong'. The mind works with relativity. If everything was the same color, we would have no word for color, and no way to understand what it is. It may seem like I'm obsessed with relativity and absoluteness, but these ideas reach farther than my mind can take them. They are the foundation for more than I can understand, and for that reason I think they deserve serious thought and focus.

I also don't understand what the hell people are thinking when it comes to all the hypocritical shit we do. It makes sense that religious people let society's morals and values mix in with their own. They don't try to look at it from an outside perspective. They can't tell me why they are offended by curse words. They seem like products of their influences in that their choices are so often the easy way out.

Choice and its consequences are all we have control over. Intelligent people were given that intelligence for free, attractive people were born with their body. This is why it bothers me that Christian people were too often just born in a Christian household. They never _had_ to choose. Religiously it bothers me, because it brings this question- How can our souls be judged for eternity using these seemingly predecided lives? I won't go any further into this here. This is something I should be talking to my pastor about.

I'm not so sure about the meaning of our lives being what we make it. That just sounds like imaginary meaning to me, and love doesn't seem like any more than human nature, although I've never experienced the guy-to-girl kind. My guess would be is that the type of love that society holds in such high regard is just a mix of emotions that eventually leads to the main one- attachment. I can't say anything for sure about it. I just have thoughts, not opinions.


----------



## Cam (Dec 13, 2006)

DRyan said:


> Preaching is what people like you and me do.


Yes, you do it to reinforce your belief's, the more people that you can get to see things your way, the stronger your belief system is.
It is an antiquated ancestral remnant that should have been removed by evolution.


----------



## DRyan (Jan 19, 2008)

> Yes yes I know, you missed the point.
> Let me put it another way, if everything is meaningless then why bother writing about it, what difference would it make.
> If you truly believe that it's pointless you wouldn't even post. So, there must be a reason for posting no? You may say the reason is trying to find reason.
> If there was no reason we wouldn't be here, there is a reason for everything. Everything has an effect on something.
> ...


I'm saying with no absolutes or higher power, that beach is as insignificant as both the grain of sand and the universe it is in. With no higher power, everything has a _meaningless_ effect on something.

I had the impression that the excessive inward focus was pretty characteristic of dr. When nothing feels real but your own consciousness, it makes sense to focus on it.



> It is how everyone's mind works unless you are 5


haha  cool, I was hoping.


----------



## DRyan (Jan 19, 2008)

Black Box said:


> DRyan said:
> 
> 
> > Preaching is what people like you and me do.
> ...


That makes sense, but i see no meaning in a life if this is true. I need a reason to live, just like a person needs a reason to speak. I'm just taking it a step farther.

Edit (2 times  )- what are you doing right now? Is this not preaching? Is preaching wrong? Should no one express opinion? Who are you to decide what 'should' have been removed by evolution? Where does this opinion come from? A lot of that seems like a stretch to me. You give your opinions and convictions that type of absolute respect that Christians give religion, and most people give morals, but where does it come from?


----------



## Cam (Dec 13, 2006)

Of coarse I am, I am doing it to reinforce my own beliefs, it's what I just said no?

Why can't we just accept that the meaning of existence is to live and enjoy yourself, it doesn't have to have some esoteric reason does it?


----------



## Cam (Dec 13, 2006)

DRyan said:


> Who are you to decide what 'should' have been removed by evolution?


Who are you to deny me an opinion?
That's what it all really boils down to no? A collaboration of opinions.


----------



## DRyan (Jan 19, 2008)

Black Box said:


> DRyan said:
> 
> 
> > Who are you to decide what 'should' have been removed by evolution?
> ...


Misinterpretation, no argument there. That was actually my point.



> Why can't we just accept that the meaning of existence is to live and enjoy yourself, it doesn't have to have some esoteric reason does it?


You can accept and believe what you want, in the end if your right it doesn't matter anyway. Everything I've said is only my perspective and the conclusions I have come to through my thought processes. Some people need a reason to live, some are naturally content. I can't live for enjoyment. Enjoyment dies with a person. I need an absolute, an eternity, in order to feel like my actions have meaning. I think I already said something to this effect- Just like I wouldn't jump around for no reason, I cannot get past the idea eternal emptiness at the end of it all. If there is a chance that something greater is out there, I have nothing to lose. Nothing matters if I'm wrong.


----------



## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> Yes, you do it to reinforce your belief's, the more people that you can get to see things your way, the stronger your belief system is.


That is not the reason for everyones preaching. 
Many people for example are preaching about Jehovah God's Kingdom because they believe their preaching will save lives.

I agree that preaching can reinforce a persons belief but it is not the reason that everyone preaches. Some people may preach for that reason but not everyone. Their are people in this world who truly care for their fellow human beings and desire to spread their beliefs in order to save the lives of their fellow human brothers and sisters. Weather or not the beliefs are right is not the issue. 
I will not go into that subject.



> This is something I should be talking to my pastor about.


If you are Christian then you should ask your pastor about biblical questions more then philosophical ones. 
For example, ask your pastor if he believes that the bible teaches that it is OK to fight in war to protect your nation that you are now living in. Then you may also want to ask him what nation Jesus died for.

Asking your pastor questions is a good idea. 
Ask lots of questions.

Some people preach in order to help others.

Some people preach in order to reaffirm their own beliefs.

And some people preach simply for economic wealth or power.

I think I would stick with the people who are preaching in order to help others. 
I believe these to be the ones who are lest likely to be telling lies.

No matter what the details of the preaching is. 
If the preacher is doing the preaching out of an honest love for his neighbor then I will be happy to listen and consider what the preacher is telling me.

I don't think their are many people in this world who are preaching out of honest love.

Thats my opinion.

I think we should pay more attention to the motive that is behind the words people speak to us. No matter if the Pope is speaking to us or if it is just some homeless guy at the bus stop. I personally only seriously consider the words that are being spoken out of love. If a homeless man is speaking to me with a motivation of love then I am much more happy to listen to this man rather then listening to the Pope if I can see that the Pope is speaking to me for selfish reasons. I don't think it is very hard to notice what peoples motives are. I think the motives are just overlooked most of the time.



> Why can't we just accept that the meaning of existence is to live and enjoy yourself


I accept this.

But who is the one who knows how we may live and enjoy our lives?

Usually the thought of just enjoying the moment seems to lead to darkness for me. 
Selfish gratification is not a good thing. Just consider Rape for example. Is this something that can be considered to be Good. Obviously the one committing the rape is enjoying himself but what about the victim?

When we limit our thoughts simply to selfish gratification then we find ourselves destroying ourselves as a species, this is what we seem to be doing right now. And it seems we are taking all the other species of life on earth down with us.

So I believe their should be a little more elaboration into "the meaning of existence".
For me personally this elaboration includes my belief in God.

I think that even people who do not believe in God should still look for meaning in a collective way rather then simply a selfish way.

Black Box I am not trying to say that you are selfish.

I am just trying to point out why many people are looking for more then nothing. Why many people search for more then simple enjoyment of pleasures. I believe you probably search for more yourself. It don't have to be this way. This is just the way it is. Humanity is not just one person. So we can not think in terms of what is just pleasing to ourselves if we are not considering a larger picture. This picture for many people includes our creator.

Without a larger view of things then it seems almost certain that these issues with existence are going to keep popping into mind. Unless we all make ourselves completely apathetic toward everything besides our own enjoyment of pleasures. Their is more going on in the universe then our own personal enjoyment of the moment. Their are over 6 billion people on this Earth.

Black Box no matter what your beliefs are, I hope you do have a wider view of things then just personal enjoyment. I will not judge you but I just want to point out that your statement about the meaning of existence can be turned into an extremely selfish thought for people. I personally do not care to enjoy myself much if everyone else on Earth is living in agony. The only thing that would make me happy in a world of agony would be to help others to rid themselves of their agony. This is why the meaning of my life is including God. Because I do not want to just think of pleasing myself. I want to live in a better world for everyone. I am sure you also want to live in a better world black box. And this is really the meaning of life. For us all to be enjoying life together and for us all to be adding to each others enjoyment.

This is why I do not believe the full meaning of life is being realized right now. I think that this meaning must include God. And without God then the full meaning of our lives is impossible.

If this world I see now is the best we will ever have then I am reduced to pointlessness and their is no meaning, their is not meaning in my existance.

So without God, I view this entire universe as a pointless waste. 
That is my own personal view.

So I am accepting that the meaning of life is to enjoy life. 
But for me this meaning includes God and every other living being in the universe. 
Their is no point in only considering myself.



> If there is a chance that something greater is out there, I have nothing to lose. Nothing matters if I'm wrong.


Exactly!


----------



## DRyan (Jan 19, 2008)

Your perception of meaning is the same as mine then, lostone. Enjoyment is given its meaning by god, without god, enjoyment is as pointless as everything else. If you haven't already realized this: for the most part, we are arguing the same exact point. Meaning is given in absolutes, not relatives.


----------



## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> we are arguing the same exact point


Yeah probably.

I don't really want to argue a point either way though. I don't like the idea behind that word.

The word "Meaning" and the phrase "issues with existence" can imply very different ideas into different minds.

For me personally, "meaning" is pointless if it is not given in an absolute way.

What good is the light of the moment if the rest of eternity is going to be dark and black?

What real meaning is their in our enjoyment this very moment if the eternity of the universe truly is just going to be a vast pool of Radiation.

Many scientist are saying that their prediction of the universe is that it will eventually decompose into simple radiation. All matter in the universe will eventually just be turned into radiation. Their will be nothing except for raw energy that has no life, according to these scientist. And this will go on and on for eternity. So if this is the truth then our existence really has no meaning and therefore these "issues with existence" that we have are very justified. This is why I think it is important to really consider the larger view of things. 
Even if you do not believe in God. You must realize that the belief and the line of thinking behind the teaching that the universe is going to just turn into radiation is a negative belief. Even if it were the truth. It is obviously a very dark truth because it means that we really have no point in being here. Nothing matters because eventually their will be no memory of this earth or anyone who ever lived on this earth. This belief leads only to depression and a feeling of pointlessness because the belief itself is vanity. The very belief itself is pointless. Why spend so much time studying the stars and studying life and the universe if it is all just going to end in a vast pool of radiation? What a wast of time. 
This is why it is very clear to me that most people do not even believe their own professed beliefs. Because actions speak louder then words and the actions of people profess their beliefs more then their words do. They believe their is a point to life and that life has meaning yet they profess that they believe life has no meaning. It is a complete contradiction. It is doublethink on their part to a massive degree.

DP/DR and these issues with existence have a lot to do with peoples larger view of things and the philosophies that people have I think. I say this because of a trend I have noticed amongst people with DP/DR. Threads like this one are popping up all the time on these dp/dr forums. Their is a reason for this. It is not DP/DR that is causing the thoughts but it is the thoughts that are causing the DP/DR. This seems like an obvious observation to me.

And it seems that the negative thinking that contributes to DP/DR is only promoted by the media and the scientist and the political world leaders. I often wonder why? Why is the negative promoted so greatly in this world? And any hope at all is viewed as if it were some kind of plague or something? These are the questions we should spend more time thinking about. No matter what our beliefs are. We all should focus on asking the right questions rather then avoiding them and focusing on the effects of not asking these questions.

911 for example. 
Why are we not all asking the important questions. 
Why are we not asking why Muslims are still being blamed for this attack when we know that most of the hijackers listed in the "official" story are actually still alive and well? So if these hijackers were not the real hijackers then who were the real hijackers?

Why are these types of questions avoided?
If most people are putting their faith into their belief that the universe is pointless and it is just going to end up a vast pool of radiation then what is their to be afraid of? Why be so afraid to take a closer look at the religions of the world? We be so afraid of the idea about God or the idea behind evil? WHAT IS WORSE THEN THE BELIEF THAT WE ARE ALL GOING TO JUST END UP IN A VAST POOL OF RADIATION IN THE END????????????????????????

Their is nothing to lose. 
This is not an agruement. It is just an obvious fact. 
According to some scientist, the radiation is going to end up radiation in the end no matter what people believe or do here. So the lifeless radiation of eternity is going to remain unchanged no matter what. Therefore their is nothing at all to lose for someone with this belief. Even if this belief were the truth. Their is nothing to lose if you are believing in a lie. So why not believe in a good lie rather then a bad truth? Personally I have to know that my beliefs are truth but still if my belief is along with the radiation theory then I will spend all my days on this earth fighting to prove my own beliefs wrong because this belief is complete darkness for the entire universe.

More and more people are being led into a line of thinking that is completly pointless and for some reason these very people are extremly fanatical about their own pointless beliefs.

Yes the meaning of life is basically just the enjoyment of life.

*But how many people on earth are enjoying their lives right now?*
*Why does eveyone have mental illnesses these days?
*
*Why is hope viewed as an enemy?*

Rather then pondering upon the question about existence, why not ponder these other questions?
The answer to these kinds of questions are much more enlightening I think.

I don't want to get into what is truth and what is not truth. 
I don't want to argue.

I am not wanting to state what is truth here. 
I just want to try and get people to think about *"WHY"* we have so many messed up thoughts in the first place. Why we have these thoughts about existence. Obviously their is a reason that these thoughts can be so disturbing to us. If it were up to evolution then I must ask, what good does it do us to be depressed and kill ourselves over our messed up thoughts about existence???? IS this evolution or something else? If we are the highest form of evolution then why are we the only spicies who commit suicide? Why are we the only species destroying the entire planet and making the earth unfit for life? Is this going along with evolution?

It is not the answers that I want to talk about anymore because the answers only contribute to agruments. It is more easy for people to avoid a fact then it is for people to avoid a question.

So what is the answer to these questions?

I realize for a lot of people, answers can not even be given because people are not asking the right questions. 
So what I want to keep asking people is to start asking good questions that lead into a more positive direction then the direction of death and decay all the way down to a vast pool of radiation. 
According to the evolution theory, we humans should never be able to believe in the darkness that many of us believe in these days. It is not contributing to our survival. So how is it that we evolved because we are the "fittest" but our evolution has only led to millions of people killing themselves around the world every year because they do not want to exist anymore. Evolution and suicide don't make much sense together. How are we the fittest if we are all wanting to kill ourselves because of our messed up beliefs and our messed up philosophies???

That is just a question. 
I have answers for myself that I don't want to talk about here because they may be the spark of a debate.

I just hope everyone else is at least asking the same questions that I have been asking all my life. I believe if people ask the right questions then eventually we will all find the same answers.


----------



## DRyan (Jan 19, 2008)

Yea asking the right questions is so important. 'Why?' is so important. Science explains how, but doesn't tell us why, in that sense.


----------



## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> Science explains how


Not exactly.

Most of science is just theory.

That is why they always say "evolution "theory"" rather then saying "Evolution fact"

Most of science is not viewed as proven fact.

The more recent theories are almost all impossible to even prove even if they were true, meaning they are not even very good scientific theories.

So I would say that Science tries to explain the "how", but that science often even gets the "how" wrong.

So I would think that science would want to totally avoid the issues of "Why" but every human has their own religious beliefs (even scientist). Religious beliefs direct much of what Scientist say and do.

I personally would rather turn to God first and scientist later. 
I respect science and understand it's value but I will never view science as a God. 
If God did not exists, my feelings toward science would be the same. On a religious level much of modern science is promoting darkness and the belief in complete darkness for our future. And much of this is based upon assumptions and the personal beliefs of some specific scientists. So I don't see the point in becoming fanatical over science. Science has its place in this world but it's place should not be as "God almighty". The last time I checked, all the scientist who are living seemed to be only human.


----------



## DRyan (Jan 19, 2008)

I would have worded my post better and elaborated if I hadn't just woken up  I agree.


----------



## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> I agree.


Thats awesome.

I don't know what motivated me to post or even visit dpselfhelp again but I am glad that I can leave here from this thread in agreement with someone rather then just trying to avoid an endless debate  .

I don't like to debate things. I am much more happy if people are in agreement about things.

Dryan I just hope that we are not the only ones in agreement here. Hopefully the other people in this thread have found some good points to be in agreement with also.


----------



## Guest (Mar 5, 2008)

LOSTONE said:


> > Most of science is just theory.


 I agree with that........that's something right..........I mean, that has to be a little bit good............right?


----------



## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

LOSTONE said:


> CECIL
> I would not be so sure about your future.
> 
> What makes you so sure that you will not be able to one day see the stars up close?
> ...


Hope so 

It makes me feel humbled but also honoured to be given the chance to play some part in it all, no matter how small.


----------



## oinque (Feb 13, 2008)

Hello I am new to the forum (not to the fucking disorder). Since i didnt know how to make a new topic (and if i am allowed to) I chose his section to write. The topic is quite relevant to what i want to discuss and has to do with these existential worries. Please show some understanding for my english. Havent practise them for a looong time.

The first time dp hit me it was with these questions about life you mentioned above. Suddendly i was observing and wondering about every aspect of human behaviour and life in general. the whole think seemed very irrational to me (or rational? doesnt matter, since during dp both rationality and irrationality seemed the same strange to me). The questions about life and reality filled and sometimes still fill my head to the point that i cannot breath. sHowever sooner or later the intensity of the these questions subsides, although the are still exist in my head,they just do not make me wanna die immediately.

Recently i made the mistake to start to study again. U see i got a bachelor in psychology (laught its ok  ) and l am in love with research especially in the area of sociology and philophy. I ve always putted knowledge very high and considered it as a source of power.I am also (or used to be) very rational and definetly hAVE to find a rational explanation about everything. its the only way to ease my huge insecurity, which became worse with the dp. Unfortunately the book i happend tby chance to read was a powerful critisism of the roots of modern social sciences. I couldnt find a more suitable reading. it arised all the questions that tortured me, caused by my dp. the book critisized the notion of "truth" and rationality and posed question about the nature of knowledge. it was like a person without dp posed the same questions with a person with dp. Of course these questions were posed obviously on another level but who cares? Insecure, scared and (control) freak as i am i was panic. My belief that reality is there, etc which my shrink and I had through a lot of try obtained, collapsed in a second. After that my doctor does not allow me to read filosophy especial postmodernist and pessimistic writers. Lol hah? - i m pathetic- .

soon after i managed somehow to forget about the convincing arguement of the book i read, a friend by chance provoked me to find an explanation for something. needless to say that i started reading again stuff that worsened my dp, despite the warning of my doctor. this time had to do with modern physics, time, space etc. stuff that are quite confusing by themselves. After these, i haved felt more depersonalized, derealized, alienated, confused and scared in my life. of course this is also because along with my dp, i am very very insecure and a control freak. I always try to explain everything. And when the explanation doesnt fit to what I ve believed untill now, i collapse. i am so fragile. anything can knock me down.

i ve worked so hard to learn to live with my dp and relax a bit and now all these ideas turned everything upside down. i dont even care if i am going to loose my mind ( a usual symptom in people with dp). I feel I am already there.

finally, the less u know, the better u are?

i hope my text wasnt so boring. perhaps some of u who are as insecure as i am and has to do with sciences and the rest understand me better

8enks


----------



## DRyan (Jan 19, 2008)

I'm thinking many of the people here will be able to directly relate to most of the things you've said. Your English expresses your ideas very well, by the way.


----------



## Avenged (Feb 21, 2008)

I just found this thread again after some time...

Dryan obviously has much to learn about OCD/Obsessive Compulsive tendencies. Its quite simple. Do what he says - sit and debate endlessly (while in a DP state of mind) or Do what I say - (let the compulsive tendency to "ruminate" fade, before debating these issues) and you will get better. It was difficult to tell, but if his post (which came directly after mine) was directed towards me? ..there was no intentional hostility in my post. I would advise you to take a few deep breaths before coming on here and projecting your own anger onto other people.

Thank you very much.


----------



## oinque (Feb 13, 2008)

Avenged.

couldnt understand if your answer concerned my post.

"It was difficult to tell, but if his post (which came directly after mine) was directed towards me? ..there was no intentional hostility in my post. I would advise you to take a few deep breaths before coming on here and projecting your own anger onto other people."

what is that???


----------



## DRyan (Jan 19, 2008)

No no no, I wasn't directing it at you man, you have a point that needs to be taken seriously. I'm sorry if I offended you at all. And, I understand the obsessive problems that come with DP/DR. I suffer from them a lot. The general impression of all of the replies before me were telling him to dismiss these thoughts as if they had no meaning. Thats what I was replying to in my post. I don't believe these ideas should be ignored as a meaningless symptom of this disorder. Discussion of them is not a bad thing.


----------



## alphaman (Nov 4, 2005)

Existential thought patterns that bring one to taste the abyss in all its horror (I sound melodramatic....yet I'm really being serious...because it is horrid) have a profound ability to feel like a reverse enlightenment.....a tramautic underminding of existence and human life down to every atom and every shelter we might have in the fabric of the world is torn apart in the shocking insanity of DR/DP or whatever-the-f*** you want to call it. The violence against the mind of this 'condition' cannot be underestimated....it will induce trauma within a few seconds as the localized conciousness is smeared around infinity and the conceptualization of the ultimate paradox of everything - the adrenals kick into gear and the body goes into a panic attack.

Thing is, the less anxious and more honest I get, the far less I think about that shit and the less tormented by DR I am.

I was laid off from a job of 5 years recently and have spent some weeks at home.... its been a real eye opener how much better my general mental health is...and I don't consider my previous job bad at all. Just sleeping, feeding the cat, tidying the house, drinking some beers, going for walks, cooking good food.......letting the nervous system relax and slow down.... its surprising the effect his has.

I can't deny the ultimate questions are real, or that the paradox of the void is real.... but somehow - I also sense theres an immensity I'm not understanding. As an atomic tiny blob in the universe....how can I ACTUALLY understand the void?

If everything is happening in the eternal moment....there is NOTHING to do. Everything is playing out as it should. There is no judgement. There is just....you..... and I think at that point we can start putting together a life... engaged and grounded (or not,), where we can think of 'dr', like we think of of wound from the past. At least, I've been thankful enough to experience this.

When I actually look at the moon or stars...I realise how little I know of them, and how peaceful they look. We are programmed by our own culture far more than we imagine, I think.

The problem of existence isn';t solved by thinking about it. Thought becomes the problem. What ever thought is.

I can go for days now without thinking about DR, and if it does start to creep up I have a 'fuck you' attitude to it. I know a few heavy drinks will kill it anyway....so in a way, theres nothing to be scared of. I can tell it to bugger off and get one with the task at hand. The fact alchohol chemical interdiction can work so well in my case certainly lessens my 'awe' of the condition - after all, how can something so 'profound'
be altered by boring old booze eh? Yes it is profound, but is it truth?


----------



## oinque (Feb 13, 2008)

I used to read a lot, especially filosophy and sociology. I though I understood what i was reading. when i got dp i didnt just understand it; I could feel it. it was really weird to really feel, <<<<<< FEEL>>>>>>>> the stranger of camus, the guy in nausea of sartre, the nihilism if nietzsche, the moto " everything is text' by derrida or the death of the subject postmodernists describe. I think i understand these pieces more than their writers do (lol). I think we all do.

dp is a living hell, which when takes me over i really dont give a shit about my life, i really dont care that i waste the precious time of my little life locked in my house crying, i dont give a shit for all the opportunities i miss, all the friends i miss. I dont feel gulty that i dont give a shit for not being ok towards all my responsibilites (when i was depressed my irresponsibility made me even more depressed). i just dont care. i would sacrifise anything for a moment of peace of mind. when the crisis subsides a bit, guilts and regret about the things i loose because of my dp come back. And in order to get away from these painful thoughts i return to dp. in order not to face these fact and real life in general i return to dp.

although during the crisis i beg for a moment of peace, subconsciously - and this is the most horrible and oxymorous - i feel safe in this state. this becomes clear to me, when the crisis subsides and i start to return slowly to the real life again. Knowing that i have to face a million problems, I have caught myself subconsciousnly miss the "protection" of dp. dp is a defense for me. getting away from the difficulties of life, cause i am too weak to face them. i dont know if u have feel it. perhaps this feeling is present just for me because i dont suffer only from dp. I have a loooong history of mental disorder. I am a walking DSM. I had anorexia, then depression, then dp with strong elements of OCD. And who knows what else awaits for me in the future . I believe every mental disorder is a defense. And since it is a defense why not develop more new disorders?  .

right now i take a coctail of drugs. And i am ton allowed to drink ( which was a relief for me ), to read philosophy, and interact with males (so I smoke and smoke, what else is left?). i can leave without men. and alcohol i think. But i cant forgive dp for taking studying from me. I was commited to it. It gave meaning to my life. and because of dp i cant continue with my studies. i m too sensitive to new information. Nice. nice. NICE

I LOVE MY LIFE. COULDNT BE BETTER.

sorry if my post was a bit irrelevant to the subject, and a warning: WHATEVER HAPPENS, DO NOT READ POSTMODERNIST TEXTS.

thanks for listening.


----------



## DRyan (Jan 19, 2008)

i thought I'd recommend a movie- contact. I haven't read this thread in a while, but i remember someone said something about liking stars and this movie deals pretty directly with existential and religious/science-related ideas. plus, its a wonderful movie.


----------



## Avenged (Feb 21, 2008)

Can someone please explain to me the full meaning of "Love" and how it is the strongest force in the universe. Stronger than DP.

Right now I feel utterly nihilistic,empty, scared, and afraid that everything in my life will be taken away. Im terrified that I am all a bunch of chemicals, and that even the feeling of 'love' is infact just a feeling, created by chemicals. CHEMICALS CHEMICALS FUCKING CHEMICALS. u cant escape them. I feel so dark and isolated and painful right now. .....What is stronger than dp.

somebody please explain to me the full meaning of Love.


----------



## alphaman (Nov 4, 2005)

Life is precious, and it temporal.

When those you love die, this becomes clear.

In fact EVERYTHING is temporal. The thirst for annihilation in the face of existential agony is understandable...it represents a psychological wound as desperate as a physical trauma. Curiously, I've noticed when I have been sick in recent years... its almost like a soft blanket of suffering is placed across me...there is pain, but its numbed, my mind relieved of its normal duties.

From my experience, the process of healing involves the body. If one can somehow get in contact with the silent emotions then one starts twitching, shuddering, convulsing, crying, screaming etc. This kind of experience is barely accepted or understood in our culture. You rarely see people collapsed in convulsions of grief on the floor at funerals in usa or uk. Janov touched on this with the whole primal scream thing... but I question the notion a 'therapist' is needed at all....at least, not as someone who is anyhow different than the subject. So much emotional material is mediated through symbols and rituals. One only has to look at animals for a more dis-inhibited (though in some ways no less stuctured) approach to living.

The intellect defends itself with its own insight. And yes, post modern philosophy included .

I also think letting go of judging is vital, and to just accept.

I just don;t believe we are just 'chemicals'. Faith perhaps. But on the other hand.... matter and energy are the same thing. Everything is a totality. Chemicals are spiritual.

anyone suffering from these states of consciousness has my deepest compassion. All I can say is, I've found a relationship between buried feelings and their onset.

Find a safe place to try and start to pull the car out from the swamp. Find people you can be TOTALLY honest with who will accept you - tell your story.

A pattern in my life I am still comprehending is just how much I hid from other people since childhood. Dreams, desires, fears etc etc.

Live your truth, including, DR/DP, and see where it goes. It takes courage.........but strangely the terror of these thoughts gives one courage. When you have experienced hell in ones own mind, what could be worse?

I wonder if in Jungian terms this is some brutal archetype or something.


----------



## DRyan (Jan 19, 2008)

Who the hell knows that love is..? In my experience, love is a label for some great idea that people make up meanings to for themselves (at least in America, lol). God knows what love is, God gives meaning to life, a higher power to this otherwise pointless shit that we hold in such absolute, high regard without reason. If you want to know what love is on a higher level, you'll need to look somewhere higher than human opinion and reasoning. If God doesn't exist, it doesn't matter anyway. You'll keep living until your consciousness is removed from existence, and then you wont be around to care about the absence of a higher power. No good, no bad. No absolutes, no meaning.


----------



## DRyan (Jan 19, 2008)

pretty much all of the concepts I've covered here can't be fully appreciated until one comes to these conclusions on their own.


----------



## fading (Apr 2, 2008)

Existence existence existence... one could obsess into eternity about this. I've come to the conclusion that it just is. 
That's all I can do to stop from feeling nuts about it. I tell myself, "It just Is."
I don't know what, where, why, how..... but neither to the animals, or the insects, or the plants, and everything just is. 
I also have a rubberband around my wrist and I snap it whenever my mind starts to get hooked on this existence subject.
There is no end to where those thoughts can go... 
It just is.


----------

