# Network Spinal Analysis



## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Has anyone on here had any experience with NSA? (That is Network Spinal Analysis, not No Strings Attached). Its energy work, based on the spinal cord . I have read some opinions by certain scientists to say that the subconscious mind is based in the spinal cord. Just wondering what others think about this concept also?


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

I used to travel to London every week for about six months to get it, it is one of the best alternative therapies I have tried. I thought it was abit of a rip off when I first tried it because all you do is lie down on a massage table and the guy literally taps areas on your neck and base of spine with his fingers, but the smallest of taps can make quite a big difference to your body and make it completely relax because they have found areas called "spinal gateways" which when tapped bring your body out of defensive posture and free up your breathing. After a few weeks you start to get a wave of breath which starts at the base of your spine and works its way up to your neck breaking down any stress patterns in your body which can affect your mental and physical health.

I im not so sure about the claim that the subconscious is in the spinal cord though, what I think is happening is that if you want to repress and control emotions you contract your body and you develop stress patterns and emotional patterns which get stuck in your body stresses and tensions. So freeing up the body is one route into helping mental health, but the reason I stopped doing it is because everytime my breath went into my neck I couldnt break up the stress there because I didnt feel safe enough to deal with the emotions stuck there.

Some people can get it for free from insurance so I would try it if you can.


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## PPPP (Nov 26, 2006)

jeremy said:


> Has anyone on here had any experience with NSA?


 :shock: shhhhhh! if you speak of the No Such Agency they'll come for you!


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## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

jeremy said:


> Has anyone on here had any experience with NSA?


yea, and I want my money back! :evil:

I think the whole thing is a total rip off. The room first of all was always full of at least 8 different people at a time, and not a single person ever had the type of spontaneous kundalini-type awakening, uncontrollable need to cry or laugh, or anything other than just feeling extremely lightheaded after the session due the extreme deep breathing for a half hour (which they cleverly referred to as the new "transformed" energy in you...good one! LOL) Even my friend who originally recommended it to me and stuck with it much longer than I did eventually wanted more than just a tap on her back for all her money and went back to her regular chiro. but hey, it's possible, I suppose, that our chiropractor just sucked at it.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Layla said:


> jeremy said:
> 
> 
> > Has anyone on here had any experience with NSA?
> ...


haha

Interesting comments. I think your very right Rula in perhaps that your chiropractor sucked at it. there are some health practitioners that are good at what they do and some that dont have a clue!! Im interested in this as the chiropractor I work with is studying this at the mo and is in Italy this weekend on a course and said she would need someone to practice on when she came back so I offered myself as a guinea pig. Will be very interesting to see what happens.

Your comments Pablo about stress and emotional patterns becoming stuck in your body I can relate to. I think the opinion about the subconscious is separate and distinct from NSA, I am just interested in different theories. I think the lady who coined up that idea was Candace Pert from What the Bleep. I read on her biog that she is researching about creating non-toxic pharmaceuticals which I found extremely interesting. There are a lot of opinions and theories around I notice, but I feel things are going in the right direction in terms of health which can only be exciting!

Thanks for your comments.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Edit: See below. My mind is GONE.


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## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

jeremy said:


> I think your very right Rula in perhaps that your chiropractor sucked at it. there are some health practitioners that are good at what they do and some that dont have a clue!!


Yes, but I'm also pretty sure that NSA earned its entry on *Quack Watch* without my help.

The idea that energy or "consciousness" can travel up the spine and release blockage through concentration and breathing is borrowed from Hinduism and can be achieved for FREE. So why I ask you, Jeremy, should we now pay a chiropractor to simply tap the backs of a room full of 8-16 patients (or however many chairs he can fit in his office) for min $50 dollars/half hour each? yes, I'm sure all Chiros would attest to the great efficacy of this method, for obvious reasons :lol: but do let us know what you think of it!

-rula


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

To be fair I wouldnt base what works and what is good on the Quackwatch website, there are all sorts of things which quackwatch says is bad like acupuncture and nearly all the Chinese health practices like qigong, which I know can help many problems and diseases. Just because they talk about energy which scientists cant measure it doesnt mean that it isnt useful and cant help people.

NSA is very expensive and they do seem to squeeze as many people in as possible but that doesnt mean that the technique doesnt work. It is basicaly a body/breath technique like you say similar to Hindu yoga techniques but it is different, those areas which they touch really do take your body out of "defence posture" so it is a far gentler and easier way of getting tension out of your body and far less risky and more natural than regular chiropractors. If there was a practitioner near where i live I would probably go back just for the stress relief if not any anything else.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

EDIT: I screwed up a lot of sentences here:



Dreamer said:


> Jeremy,
> You know my stance on this, but as someone said above I firmly believe the benefits of this are the equivalent of what I'm doing now -- physical therapy on my back. And chiropractic and this NSA does NOT treat mental illness.
> 
> Firstly, I have always been anxious, and even as a kid had sore muscles from tension. Anxiety/stress leads to tension.
> ...


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## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

Pablo said:


> To be fair I wouldnt base what works and what is good on the Quackwatch website, there are all sorts of things which quackwatch says is bad like acupuncture and nearly all the Chinese health practices


true. and I don't consult quackwatch in everything I do. but, if you do checkout NSA's site under "what is NSA", it reads like a silly infomercial not a remotely pseudo-scientific explanation worth shelling out real money for, hence deserving induction in QuackWatch.



> NSA is very expensive and they do seem to squeeze as many people in as possible but that doesnt mean that the technique doesnt work.


certainly not, but such a miraculous technique that *works* would probably be much more wide spread by now wouldn't it? It didn't work for me, for my friend or for you (although you seem to blame yourself) or for any of the people in the room with me during any of the sessions I attended (as non of them ever exploded in spontaneous emotional expression of any kind, as the founder of NSA boldly claims is common)

Witch Doctors used to cure people of all kinds of illnesses; in the 21st century we now know the real healer was the patient's own brain, his/her own powerful belief in the ritual triggered chemicals that cured the illness. and we still see witch doctors! Defense posture, developed over YEARS of trauma, apparently being released by 4-5 simple taps of a finger, once a week? Did I seriously pay money for this?? :lol:


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Well I'll see how it goes when she practices on me. Ill report back either way.

Thanks for the opinions


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2007)




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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Im not sure if we folks are on the same page here but I am talking about NSA, not chiropractic.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Dear Jeremy,
This is what is stated on the site:



> Network Spinal Analysis? is an evidenced based approach to wellness and body awareness. Gentle precise touch to the spine cues the brain to create new wellness promoting strategies.
> 
> Two unique healing waves develop with this work. They are associated with spontaneous release of spinal and life tensions, and the use of existing tension as fuel for spinal re-organization and enhanced wellness.
> 
> ...


I recall you spoke about another theory that involved tapping certain points in the body. This seems to be a variation of spinal manipulation.

Again, to me the concept of emotional problems hidden in the spine, regardless of how you try to treat them makes no medical sense to me.

I may have said, I know a doctor (friend's ex-hubby) who practises both Western and Eastern medicine. He has an M.D. as well as extra training in Eastern techniques, especially acupuncture.

He actually practiced the acupuncture on me, as well as everyone in the household, LOL.

At any rate, in his practice of some years now, he has seen only pain relief (an not necessarily permanent) from acupuncture.

I asked him if he felt acupuncture or chiropractic or rubbing specific points on the body would help mental illness and he said "No." I take him at his word as he has worked with many patients now...God, 8 or more years w/the Eastern stuff added.

Frequentlly he uses it in tandem with Western therapies.

But he is serious about Eastern practices. He has STUDIED them, and not NSA, but acupuncture, and some spinal manipulation, but as he says, he is not an orthopedic doctor. That is a specific specialty. He WAS (edit, sorry) an invasive radiologist, but of course has gone back to update all of his knowledge in Internal Medicine. He was highly specialized and felt very limited.

I'll look up more on this. But it appears to be a variation of manipulating the spine -- and I'm getting that now in spades + exercises (ultimately I will graduate to gym machines for muscle strength -- but am being taught ho to use them correctly). I have an ice pack on my back as I sit here. I'll also get ultrasound, which I don't even believe in, but everyone that gets it says it's scary how well it works.

But all it's doing is ... someone tried to explain this. A nerve can only handle one type of signal. Pain or ... not pain ... I forgot. So using these machines sort of undoes an "angry" muscle or nerve for a while after work. So does ice. But I mean I have this pack on my back all the time I'm sitting here, which I have to limit.

The bit of massage and manipulation they give me, is to see where the spinal problems are. What causes more or less pain and numbness.

IMMO, I'm no believer in "body energy" or Kundalini, etc. So this seems very similar.

Again, IMHO.

D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

From a more scientific perspective, again this therapy is for spinal MOBILITY and strength. There is no mention of mental health benefits. I was interested that Chris Reeve used this to gain back some movement.

Shoot, I lost the link, but this again is a form of physical therapy as I see it. That other site sounds like .... well, I don't believe the claims.
-------------------->

"Network Spinal Analysis (NSA) is a technique through which the practitioner applies light pressure at precise points along the spine closely correlated to regions where dural attachments to the bony vertebrae and contiguous structures have been demonstrated.

Although patient specific, within one to three months of care, the spine exhibits a spontaneous rocking motion which is not initiated voluntarily, but can be voluntarily ceased. Retrospective and longitudinal studies have indicated that the benefits of this type of care include *enhanced flexibility and physical stability of the spine. This type of care also appears to relief adverse mechanical tensions in the spinal cord.*

*Adverse Mechanical Tensions in the Central Nervous System is a theory developed by Alf Breig, a neurosurgeon from Stockholm, Sweden. Most importantly, this kind of care seems to provide the same kind of repetitive motion that has allowed, in the well publicized case of Christopher Reeve, some late sensory and motor recovery from spinal cord injury.*

The theoretical foundation of Network Spinal Analysis is Alf Breig's theory of Adverse Mechanical Tensions in the Central Nervous System. *In this theory, the attachment of the dura mater to the cervical vertebra creates pathological tensions on the cord in case of vertebral misalignment or postural problems.*

In Network Spinal Analysis, the dural-vertebral attachment is put to use to creates an oscillation that produces the same kind of repetitive motion that has been linked to spinal cord injury recovery in the well publicized case of Christopher Reeve.

The oscillation is first localized to the vertebral area but soon propagates down the spine. Likewise, the attachment of the filum terminale to the coccyx in the sacral area also creates an oscillation that propagates up the spine. The uprunning and downrunning waves along the spine eventually yield the rocking motion of the spine typical of NSA.

* In addition to its potential applications to spinal cord injury recovery, in less dramatic cases it provides an intensive exercise for the back musculature, not reproducible by classical physio-therapeutical means.*

During the rocking motion, a fair amount of surface electromyographic (sEMG) activity is present along the spine. The sEMG signals recorded at the cervical, thoracic, lumbar, and sacral levels show "bursts of EMG activity" appearing at random and lasting anywhere from a few seconds to a minute."
-------------------------------------------
*Google further down and you'll find similar scientific uses for this. Again, physical therapy as I see it.*


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Hi dreamer

Thanks for the info and articles. Ive been trying to find some scientific stuff on NSA as they say that it is evidence based but was having trouble. Do you have the article to this link at all? I think if the girl I work with told me correctly, only chiropractors are allowed to study/practice NSA, but she said in the future it will be a practice entirely on its own.

Unfortunately or fortunately depending on how you look at it my spine is in very good shape so not sure how the NSA will impact me but from what I read it could be positive. Obviously I have no direct experience with this but am willing to see what happens.

As for acupuncture, what did you think/experience with that?? I have tried it before on several occasions but did not stay committed to it for various reasons. I found it extremely relaxing at the least but on my last visit when she twisted one of the needles into my arm it brought up some emotional stuff for me which was very frightening so haven't been back since. Actually over the last year I realized that the answer to my problems is in me and not in the holy grail i.e. the therapy/book/diet that will "fix" me but I am very open to therapies that improve emotional and physical well-being as a part of a wellness and maintenance lifestyle for me. I think any form of bodywork that suits the person whether it be massage, acupuncture etc is a very important part of that.

Anyway i appreciate the info

Jeremy


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

jeremy said:


> Actually over the last year I realized that the answer to my problems is in me and not in the holy grail i.e. the therapy/book/diet that will "fix" me but I am very open to therapies that improve emotional and physical well-being as a part of a wellness and maintenance lifestyle for me. I think any form of bodywork that suits the person whether it be massage, acupuncture etc is a very important part of that.


I hope that makes sense because rereading that is confusing for me!


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

http://eudoxus.usc.edu/CHAOS/nsa.html

Here's where I found the more scientific explanation of this, which actually helps me understand what my physical therapist was trying to explain. Nerves are very complex in how they operate. And yes, there are "electrical" signals going on in there, as in the brain, transferring information.

Also, I agree I need relaxation therapy as much as everything else to help me feel less anxious. But I see it as being more valuable in simple overall relaxation, never in treating DP/DR. Although there are always secondary benefits to human touch/manipulation, etc.

Articles from that link:

*Also, I imagine if you go to PubMed you'll find much more, or orthopedics on WebMD. My concern is the original site you posted is something that has borrowed from this actual medical technique and makes claims about it that aren't really true.*
-----------------------------------
S. Bohacek and E. Jonckheere, "Chaotic modeling in Network Spinal Anaysis: Nonlinear Canonical Correlation with Alternating Conditional Expectation (ACE): A preliminary report," in Journal of Vertebral Subluxation Research, vol. 2(4), pp. 188-195, Dec. 1998.

E. Jonckheere, S. Bohacek, and P. Lohsoonthorn, "Dynamic modeling of spinal EMG activity," NSF Southwest Regional Workshop on New Directions in Dynamical Systems, University of Southern California, Los Angeles, Nov. 16-19, 2000.

E. Jonckheere, P. Lohsoonthorn, and R. Boone, "Dynamic modeling of spinal electromyographic activity during various conditions," American Control Conference (ACC2003), Denver, Colorado, June 4-6, 2003, Session WA-13-3, Biomedical Applications, pp. 465-470. [power point presentation]

P. Lohsoonthorn and E. Jonckheere, "Nonlinear switching dynamics in surface electromyography of the spine," International Conference "Physics and Control" (Physcon2003), St. Petersbourg, Russia, August 21-23, 2003, pp. 277-282. [power point presentation]

E. A. Jonckheere and P. Lohsoonthorn, Spatio-temporal analysis of an electrophysiological wave phenomenon," International Symposium on the Mathematical Theory of Network and Systems (MTNS2004), Leuven, Belgium, July 5-9, 2004. [power point presentation]

E. A. Jonckheere, P. Lohsoonthorn, and V. Mahajan, "ChiroSensor: An array of noninvasive sEMG electrodes," Medicine Meets Virtual Reality (MMVR 2005), Long Beach, CA, January 26-29, 2005; appeared in Medicine Meets Virtual Reality-13, The Magical Next Becomes the Medical Now, IOS Press, Technology and Informatics, Volume 111, Edited by James D. Westwood, Amsterdam, the Netherlands, ISBN 1-58603-498-7, pp. 234-236. [poster presentation]

E. A. Jonckheere, P. Lohsoonthorn, V. Mahajan, S. Musuvathy, and M. Stefanovic, "On a standing wave Central Pattern Generator," Biomedical Signal Processing and Control, submitted, 2007.

A. Hiebert, E. Jonckheere, P. Lohsoonthorn, V. Mahjan, S. Musuvathy, and M. Stefanovic, "Visualization of a stationary CPG-revealing spinal wave," Medicine Meets Virtual Reality (MMVR 2006), Long Beach, California, January 24-27, 2006.; appeared in Medicine Meets Virtual Reality--14, Accelerating Change in Health Care: Next Medical Toolkit, IOS Press, Technology and Informatics, Volume 119, Edited by James Westwood, Amsterdam, the Netherlands, ISBN 1-58603-583-6, 2006, pp. 198-200. [poster presentation]

---------------------------------------------

I can ask my spine doctor (very specialized), I don't know what you call him, LOL. The SPINE DOCTOR. :shock:

Anyway, the physical therapists are VERY specialized now as well. Literally you have one for a knee, another for an arm, for a hip, for upper back, lower back, yada, yada, yada.

Re: acupuncture. I did have stiff muscles I asked Dr. M. (friend) to work on. But we only had one or two sessions over a weekend visit. Yeah two. My husband watched as he poked at me. I was surprised at how you don't feel the needles.

I was to report to him what I felt when each needle was inserted and my husband wrote it down and then we compared it to his notes.

It was interesting that I felt say an ache in my foot, if a needlle were placed say in my palm ... and it was what he expected.

He again said to me though,
#1. No mental health benefit that he knew of save it's relaxing
#2. My stiff muscles THEN, nothing got better, and he told me, to work on that it would take a number of sessions, not just a few. And it might not work.

He is very conservative in his claims. Again, I'm curous what my SPINE DOCTOR (there has to be a word for that, LOL -- he's obvously an orthopedist who specializes in the spine?) has to say about this. I don't see him for at least 6 weeks again though.

Cheers,
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

I have to laugh. Yes, I frequently pick up *The Journal of Vertebral Subluxation Research* for light reading now and again, LOLOLOLOLOL.

See, I'm a skeptic, in great part as I was a doctor's daughter.

And also, I'm a sort of skeptic in general. I have opened up to things such as Buddhist thought over the years, though, and I have to say, I didn't believe what they've been doing to my back would do ANYTHING, and it does.

So, go figure.

Main thing though, it isn't "magic", I guess that other guy sounds ... well, you got the opinions from others who've had that therapy and want there $ back.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2007)

Dreamer you could type for Britain bless ya =) *Gives you a ice bag for your fingers*


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2007)

Emulated Puppet}eer said:


> Dreamer you could type for Britain bless ya =) *Gives you a ice bag for your fingers*


LOL









Greg


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Emulated Puppet}eer said:


> Dreamer you could type for Britain bless ya =) *Gives you a ice bag for your fingers*


LOL, thank you. I need it. I love to research stuff, and once you get me going, well this is part of the reason my back is a mess. LAST POST FOR THE EVENING and then exercises.

http://www.pubmed.gov

Plug in depersonalization or network spinal analysis and you'll get OOODLES of research articles. Here are the first 10 that came up when I typed in network spinal analysis. It has to do with spine damage and mobility as far as I can see. I ain' no SPINE DOCTOR :shock: Curse of the SPINE DOCTOR and the mean phsyical therapist who causes great pain. 8)

This is all messed up, and I ain't going to fix it. There are TONS of related articles.

1:	Tan H, He J, Wang S, Hirata K, Yang Z, Kuraoka A, Kawabuchi M.	Related Articles, Links
Age-related NADPH-diaphorase positive bodies in the lumbosacral spinal cord of aged rats.
Arch Histol Cytol. 2006 Dec;69(5):297-310. 
PMID: 17372386 [PubMed - in process]

2:	Gao C, Li Q, Jian Y.	Related Articles
[Spinal fusion of lumbar intertransverse process by using tissue engineered bone with xenogeneic deproteinized cancellous bone as scaffold]
Zhongguo Xiu Fu Chong Jian Wai Ke Za Zhi. 2007 Feb;21(2):115-9. Chinese. 
PMID: 17357455 [PubMed - in process]

3:	Rammensee S, Janmey PA, Bausch AR.	Related Articles, Links
Mechanical and structural properties of in vitro neurofilament hydrogels.
Eur Biophys J. 2007 Mar 6; [Epub ahead of print] 
PMID: 17340095 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

4:	Zairat'iants OV, Kolobov SV, Shevchenko VP, Farkhat FA, Liubimov SN, Zairat'iants GO, Mironov SN, Serdiuk OM.	Related Articles, Links
[Changes in regional meningeal immunity in local immunomodulating therapy in patients with acute traumatic intracranial hematomas]
Arkh Patol. 2006 Nov-Dec;68(6):13-8. Russian. 
PMID: 17290886 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

5:	Huss ME, Lansner A, Wallen P, El Manira A, Grillner S, Hellgren Kotaleski J.	Related Articles, Links
Roles of ionic currents in lamprey CPG neurons: a modeling study.
J Neurophysiol. 2007 Feb 7; [Epub ahead of print] 
PMID: 17287443 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

6:	Lin H.	Related Articles
Identification of spinal deformity classification with total curvature analysis and artificial neural network.
Conf Proc IEEE Eng Med Biol Soc. 2005;6:6168-71. 
PMID: 17281673 [PubMed - in process]

7:	Falgairolle M, Cazalets JR.	Related Articles, Links
METACHRONAL COUPLING BETWEEN SPINAL NEURONAL NETWORKS DURING LOCOMOTOR ACTIVITY IN NEWBORN RAT.
J Physiol. 2006 Dec 21; [Epub ahead of print] 
PMID: 17185345 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

8:	Marques KB, Santos LM, Oliveira AL.	Related Articles, Links
Spinal motoneuron synaptic plasticity during the course of an animal model of multiple sclerosis.
Eur J Neurosci. 2006 Dec;24(11):3053-62. 
PMID: 17156366 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

9:	Kioussi C, Shih HP, Loflin J, Gross MK.	Related Articles, Links
Prediction of active nodes in the transcriptional network of neural tube patterning.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2006 Dec 5;103(49):18621-6. Epub 2006 Nov 28. 
PMID: 17132738 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

10:	Han SK, Mancino V, Simon MI.	Related Articles, Links
Phospholipase Cbeta 3 mediates the scratching response activated by the histamine H1 receptor on C-fiber nociceptive neurons.
Neuron. 2006 Nov 22;52(4):691-703. 
PMID: 17114052 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

*You know, I'm interested in the "roles of ionic currents in lamprey CPG neurons", LOLOLOL. Seriously. You know "electric eels". None of this is new stuff really. Just medical advancements. Chris Reeve really did accelerate research on spinal cord injury.

Isn't a lamprey like an eel?
*
OK, off the machine!


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

To expand a bit on my experience with NSA I think it can affect mental health more than something like acupuncture. NSA is marketed as a physical therapy more than mental but the theory is that all the physical problems like back ache and spinal problems which NSA is supposed to treat are actualy caused by psychological stresses and traumas. The theory is that when you have a shock or stress your mind dissociates from the events and stores the unprocessed emotional imapct as pockets of information or energy in your body, then when you have a NSA treatment your breath contacts the dissociated pockets and brings the information back into your consciousness, creating a more harmonious mind and body. There are reports of people having memories of childhood falls and frights during treatment which once are made conscious there is less need for your body to be in protective posture any more so the tension is permanentaly released.

In my own experience I didnt have any problems until my breath went into my neck and I would get irritable and defensive, which may not sound good, but it showed me that my trauma is 'stored' in my neck and if I contact that area my psychological defences increase because I am not ready to process the information held there.

This may not sound scientific to some people but this falls into line with the theories of all the body therapies and the theories of Peter Levine. Also the main PTSD trauma specialists in the world like Rothschild and Van Der Kolk now admitt that body approaches can be very useful and helpful in recovery.


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## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

Dreamer said:


> From a more scientific perspective, again this therapy is for spinal MOBILITY and strength. There is no mention of mental health benefits. I was interested that Chris Reeve used this to gain back some movement.


I was going to try to be like Homeskooled, who deleted all his argumentative posts from this threads...but then it turns out, oh well, I'm just not Homes :lol:

The article never said that Chris Reeve used NSA, it said


> this kind of care *seems* to provide the same *kind* of repetitive motion that has allowed, in the well publicized case of Christopher Reeve...


If he had used it, it would be all over the NSA web site. What the article doesn't get into is a description of what the method entails and how they propose to achieve this "repetitive motion". Fact is it's a whole lot of laying flat and deep breathing which works great for moving the lower parts of your spine by expanding/contracting your lungs; but when the chiro would tap me on my neck and say breathe here, I'm sorry but it was just a bit tricky figuring out how to bring my lungs up into my neck. :roll:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

[rula] said:


> Dreamer said:
> 
> 
> > From a more scientific perspective, again this therapy is for spinal MOBILITY and strength. There is no mention of mental health benefits. I was interested that Chris Reeve used this to gain back some movement.
> ...


Dear Rula,

Oh, no, I agree with you. The use of the word NSA is really never used. It was this quotation from the USC site on the research of Alf Breig in Sweden fascinated me. In other words, the NSA site, has borrowed (without clear understanding) this type of research

"Adverse Mechanical Tensions in the Central Nervous System is a theory developed by Alf Breig, a neurosurgeon from Stockholm, Sweden. Most importantly, this kind of care seems to provide the same kind of repetitive motion that has allowed, in the well publicized case of Christopher Reeve, some late sensory and motor recovery from spinal cord injury."

Agreed, what amazed me is the extensive physical therapy of ALL kinds that Reeve endured and experimented on was certainly similar to this in some way. He had friends help pay for this when literally his health insurance ran out! He tried whatever cutting edge stuff they were up to.

No, this isn't what that NSA site is talking about. Jeremey, sorry but the NSA site is a misinterpretation of some of this far more advanced information, which actually involves NEUROLOGY.

And *Pablo*, we'll have to agree to disagree on the trauma that is held in the spine. I simply don't buy it. But if it works for someone, what can I say. I've said, if turpentine worked I'd try it.

Again, if this were "the answer" someone would have it covered by health insurance and dissociated people would be flocking to these places.

Again, I also don't believe in "repressed memories". I know with myself, I recall every bit of horrible crap my mother laid on me since I was little. What I DID do was distance myself from it by disconnecting my feelings -- that is EMOTIONS from events. E.G. I didn't cry when I should as my mother would attack me for crying. It has taken talk therapy to help me pull that together. Things/traum hasn't been repressed, if anything, my symptoms (IMHO) -- GAD, Panic, DP/DR reflect a constant anxiety state I lived in for YEARS.

I was scared all the time. I know it. I remember it. Nothing is hidden. I've just had to sort out my conflicted feelings. Talking works for me.

But again, whatever works, more power to someone. However, I am very suspicious of something like NSA as noted on the website Jeremy posted.

Cheers,
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

What is troubling about repressed memories:

The whole scandal of the 1980s re: MPD where doctors were sued for causing 100 personalities, at least in one young girl. Suggestible people do wish to "please a therapist."

It is known that children get sick and tired of being asked about possible molestation and will ultimately say "OK, yes, so and so touched me." Worse than that in several famous abuse cases in day-care centers, children started getting imagination confused with reality. "Yes, Mr. Buckey took me up in a space ship and took off my clothes." One school in California (Little Rascals?, McMartin PreSchool?) -- they tore up the entire school grounds looking for sacrificed animals "bunnies", maybe "babies" -- nothing.

*I AM NOT SAYING CHILDREN, WOMEN, MEN ARE NOT ABUSED, I find that many have deep recall of it. Deep shame. Don't WANT to talk about it though they remember it clearly. DURING the incident/s they may have OBE experiences, dissociation etc. to "escape", but they remember.*

Also, it is known that suggestible individuals have confessed to murders and crimes THEY DID NOT COMMIT. Under certain types of police interrogation they also "break" and confess when they didn't do it.

It is called .... something, pleasing someone who is "Under the color of authority." Obviously a detective, police officer, torture, endless questioning w/leading questions by a therapist.

Dangerous stuff. It is interesting that the term MPD was changed to DID. I'm not saying it isn't a real dissociative disorder, but for instance the case of Sybil sp? is a complete Hoax. So are a number of other similar famous cases.

Again, the skeptic speaks. You need to read Marlene Steinberg's "Stranger in the Mirror" to get a better understanding of dissociation -- all forms -- Dissociative fugue, amnesia, depersonalization, DID, and now I forgot something ...

Again, I am NOT an expert, but I have read enough (Read Elizabeth Loftus on False Memory Syndrome) to be convinced that something is fishy with it. And if it is fishy in therapy, it's even fishier in one's spine.

I do not wish to denigrate your experience. But this is a strong POV I have now. And there are probably exceptions to the rule.

Best,
D


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Sorry, Im not sure which website I posted in regards to NSA....?


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2007)

===


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

jeremy said:


> Sorry, Im not sure which website I posted in regards to NSA....?


Lordy, I'm confused what I was saying. And #1, I am NO expert in the spine or this type of therapy, but as many noted, NSA as decribed on the original site you posted seemed "too good to be true." The point was:

1. Your original NSA site which folks here were complaining about, I think misrepresents something that actually EXISTS in the medical community, i.e. work done with spinal cord injuries, etc. Also, it got confusing (the second article was from USC I believe), when Chris Reeve's name was brought up.

I do not know enough about spinal cord injury to say more than I know that Reeve tried many cuttiing edge procedures and got back some mobility. Some of the procedures may have been based on this NSA concept, but I can't believe is the same technique per se used by professionals such as neurologists, etc. who would manipulate the spine in certain ways to acheive mobility, strength, neural activity.

I simply don't see it as something for mental health.

2. Oh, I can't go back to look at the other question.

Main thing. What your original site noted -- I don't buy the fact that it willl heal emotional problems, bottom line. In other words, there is a lot of neural experimentation and spine manipulation done, apparently to improve mobility in those who have lost it. That seems to be its main purpose -- very siimplified. It mentioned other things such as even Multiple Sclerosis.

All this info is way too out of my league.

Sorry for the confusion.

Bottom line, I agree with everyone who was sus about NSA as you showed on the original link you gave.

:? I'm confused.
Sorry, D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

DelMar said:


> Dreamer said:
> 
> 
> > *I AM NOT SAYING CHILDREN, WOMEN, MEN ARE NOT ABUSED, I find that many have deep recall of it. Deep shame. Don't WANT to talk about it though they remember it clearly. DURING the incident/s they may have OBE experiences, dissociation etc. to "escape", but they remember.*
> ...


DelMar,
Just to make it clear, this is my personal opinion. I agree, I am not an expert, and I am only somewhat familiar with repressed memories. I'm specifically referring to what little research I've done (on my own situation -- and I was never sexually abused).

However, what I find odd, is I've met a LOT of mentally ill people in my life, and for some reason, never seem to have come upon someone with MPD, or repressed memories. For the first time in my life, I met a young girl who has dissociative fugue states. But I can understand that easier.

I know how miserable it is for no one to believe us that we have DP/DR. I get that constantly from certain people I don't consider my friends anymore, and I don't care.

I'm just saying, maybe I'm truly full of it, but I worked with 2 doctors, I swear to you, who were founding members of the ISSMPD, which changed to the ISSD, and is now the ISSDT (don't quote me) -- the one, an M.D. psychoanalyst was so "off" on his interpretations, but I believed a lot of what he said initially.

He DID know what DP was off the bat, so how can I argue with that.

I just get very leery of many things I've read about suggestibility in retrieving memories.

*I shouldn't make a blanket statement, and I apologize. This was more related actually to my skepticism that memories can somehow be "released" through spinal manipulation. To be honest, I've never read one story that supported that fact. Granted it isn't the focus of the reading I do.*

I am not an expert. And as noted, I don't take away from anyone else's trauma or suffering.

Apologies. This is indeed my POV and my experience.

I don't want to start an argument... I'm all confused about Jeremey's post now. :?

OY
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

To be honest, the mind is so complex, one can read 4 different opinions in four different science magazines about memory.

Deja vu for instance went from a theory of literally having seen something immediately before (causing a sort of premature memory), to realizing the extent of born blind individuals who experiencee deja vu. It has nothing to do with sight.

Also, memory is infinitely complex. I suppose there are many, many layers of memory from what I understand, but it is so complex how memories are stored that there isn't any clear answer on that.

*Please believe me I am NOT an expert, but bottom line again, I'm pretty certain that memories are not stored in the spine. Bottom line. I got off on a tangent.*


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

jeremy said:


> Sorry, Im not sure which website I posted in regards to NSA....?


http://www.donaldepstein.com/

I'm hallucinating. Darren posted this guy's picture. It is at the top of Google. He offers NSA that sounds too good to be true. I guess I thought you had posted this before.

Oh Lord, just shoot me. LOL.
Sorry all. :shock:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Maybe I looked up the website myself, but ths is what it says, and it's rather vague, though I imagine it uses regular chiropractic, physical therapy, and actual medical practices I found on the pubmed and other sites.

This is I believe what others were complaining about:

"Network Spinal Analysis? care is an evidence based approach to wellness and body awareness. Gentle precise touch to the spine cues the brain to create new wellness promoting strategies. Two unique healing waves develop that are associated with spontaneous release of spinal and life tensions, and the use of existing tension as fuel for spinal re-organization and enhanced wellness. Practitioners combine their clinical assessments of spinal refinements with patient?s self assessments of wellness and life changes. Greater self-awareness and conscious awakening of the relationships between the body, mind, emotion, and expression of the human spirit are realized through this popular healing work.

Advancing New Strategies for Living & Healing in our Rapidly Changing World
*Network Spinal Analysis, through specific low force touches to the spine, assists the brain in developing new strategies to:

Experience the world

Adapt to stress

Dissipate tension from the spine and nerves

Connect with your body's natural rhythms

Experience greater well being

Make healthier choices

Create a more self - correcting self reliant "magical spine"

Develop the Somatopsychic and Respiratory "healing waves"

NSA care combines the patient's self-reported improvements in health and wellness with the practitioners plan for development of new strategies in their spine and in their life."*

Implies this is sort of "life changing" -- well , yes, my physical therapy will be life-changing, but is unlikely to cure my DP/DR. If it does, excellent. Again, whatever works for anyone ... AOK.

(It's Darren's fault, he put the guy's picture up, LOL)


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

DelMar,
It was difficult in a short time to come up with one of a zillion articles in medical literature on repressed memory. I guess my POV is we can't put any one person -- any of us here -- into one basket. There IS DID, but it isn't well understood.

Trauma causes problems with memory, but memory itself isn't understood.

I don't like anyone, including myself making blanket statements. This abstract may explain (and it's old) my POV which is often it is difficult sortiing false from real memories of past events.

*Conscious Cogn. 1995 Mar;4(1):68-74. Links
Steps toward healing: false memories and traumagenic amnesia may coexist in vulnerable populations.*

Baars BJ, 
McGovern K.
Wright Institute, Berkeley, California 94704, USA.

"Child abuse is surely the most agonizing psychological issue of our time. We decry the tendency to polarize around the either-or dichotomy of "recovered versus false memories," when both are likely to occur.

Memory researchers seem to generalize from the mild, one-shot stressors of the laboratory to the severe repeated traumas reported by abused populations, an inferential leap that is scientifically dubious.

Naturalistic studies show

(a) some post-traumatic memory impairment (not just forgetting, but difficulty remembering in spite of repeated efforts);
(b) dissociativity, such as emotional numbing, detachment, and the like; but also
(c) increased suggestibility (Spiegel & Cardena, 1991). About 20% of the normal population is highly suggestible, and in these individuals it is trivially easy to show suggested amnesia, detachment, perceptual blocking, etc., as well as to suggest dramatically false memories.

It is therefore vital to assess suggestibility and dissociativity in traumatized populations. *Adult survivors of abuse may show both more false "memories" and more "false forgetting" than the normal population.*
PMID: 7497104
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
----------------------------------------

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about, and I made a generalization and didn't qualify it with something like this that I've read. *This DOES NOT MEAN the individual hasn't been traumatized. It is how a certain percent of the population reacts. So not everyone who has had trauma has false memories or repressed memories, somtimes the memories are endlessly intrusive. I don't understand that, but it doesn't mean something isn't happening cognitively with the person ... some sort of memory malfunction. It is REAL.

We simply don't understand how NORMAL memory works. How do we properly understand how ABnormal memory storage occurs? Cognitive Science has a lot of work to do.*

OK, I'll stop. Hands need ice. 8) Don't mean to step on ANYONE'S toes or suffering.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

I would have to state my opinion that I feel memories are stored in the cells in the body, and this _could_ include the spine. And by the spine I mean spinal cord. I watched a documentary in which they interviewd people who had transplants who had taken on memories and food cravings of those peoples who's organs they used. I think this further reinforces this opinion. There are many opinions, and I am open to the majority of them. I personally couldn't take sides as I haven't personally experienced NSA, but like I say I would like to try it out and see what occurs. I am not one to say a therapy is a load of rubbish though if it doesnt do anything for me, because I feel there are many reasons why a person doesnt heal. But thats just me of course.


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## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

jeremy said:


> I am not one to say a therapy is a load of rubbish though if it doesnt do anything for me, because I feel there are many reasons why a person doesnt heal. But thats just me of course.


since I feel that this comment was directed at me...but I could be wrong.

I'm not a closed-minded simpleton who attacked acupuncture and labeled it as a load of rubbish just because that too didn't work for me. Fact is when I researched the principals of acupuncture and the supposed science behind it, my rational brain, capable of rational thought and conclusions, could deduct that it could in fact be beneficial for other people.

The same didn't hold true for NSA. I tried it out of what Homes accurately described as a moment of desperation (I also once paid $700 for a Korean water filtration system that turns tap water into antioxidant water :roll You yourself can't find a single supporting scientific evidence that this method is anything that it claims to be; so let's just agree to disagree but be clear on one thing: I said NSA makes no *logical* sense, I didn't say it's rubbish because it didn't work for me.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

No dont worry Rula, that wasnt aimed at you, was just a thought I have been having lately. I've been reading a book called Why People Don't Heal and How They Can by Carolyne Myss which has some of these types of ideas in and I just thought they were interesting.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Actually to expand further on that, I personally have thought that in the past but after reading this book it caused me to rethink my belief not just about natural approaches but also medicine too. I mean people have recovered from cancer from entirely conventional medical approaches but who am I to say that it doesnt work or its a load of rusbbish because it didnt help this person or that person? Im not sure f that makes sense?


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

jeremy said:


> I would have to state my opinion that I feel memories are stored in the cells in the body, and this _could_ include the spine. And by the spine I mean spinal cord. I watched a documentary in which they interviewd people who had transplants who had taken on memories and food cravings of those peoples who's organs they used. I think this further reinforces this opinion. There are many opinions, and I am open to the majority of them. I personally couldn't take sides as I haven't personally experienced NSA, but like I say I would like to try it out and see what occurs. I am not one to say a therapy is a load of rubbish though if it doesnt do anything for me, because I feel there are many reasons why a person doesnt heal. But thats just me of course.


Oh my jeremy, you get me to lookin' things up, LOL. I believe this phenomenon is related to some psychological connection with a donor, and as noted has no scientific studies to back it up:

Simple bit from Wikipedia:
----------------------------->
"*Cellular memory is the unproven hypothesis that such things as memories, habits, interests, and tastes may somehow be stored in all the cells of human bodies, and not only in the brain. The suggestion arose following a number of organ transplants in which the recipient was reported to have developed the memories and interests of the donor.*

An article that is not peer reviewed and that does not cite sources or offer evidence, entitled Changes in Heart Transplant Recipients That Parallel the Personalities of Their Donors and published in the Spring 2002 issue of the Journal of Near-Death Studies, reports anecdotes in which the recipient "inherited" a love for classical music, a change of sexual orientation, changes in diet and vocabulary, and in one case even identified the donor's murderer.

*The academic organ transplant community flatly rejects this notion as absurd?the domain of pseudoscience, because it has never been demonstrated in a scientific manner. They further consider it and similar myths dangerous as they may hinder organ donation."*
---------------------------> End of Wikipedia article

This also doesn't make "logical" sense to me, as at the NAMI Convention (and this has happened before at past conventions) I always get accosted by a really nice person from Harvard's McLean Hospital brain bank, looking for people with mental illness/alzheimer's etc. to donate brains for research, as one would donate any other organ. But I mean for your brain to be sliced and diced. :shock: I've considered it, but am still creeped out. I thought about my mother's brain w/Alzheimer's, but couldn't do it. She also had no indication that would be her wish. On the other hand she and I never talked about anything of such a nature.

At any rate, a wonderful Minister representing this cause -- yes a man of the cloth -- was discussing this at a booth (I have the small "stress ball" brain right here, LOL -- a squishy brain made of, well, it's squishy. At any rate, McLean hospital is making a huge effort to understand the brain, at least after death, as you don't want to be poking around in there when someone's alive. But believe it or not, we even discussed "cellular memory", which this guy had no belief in. However, he felt organ donation was wonderful, and that in a way, "PART" of a person lived on in the recipient, but not the person him/herself who had passed on. He said, "Wherever you feel one goes when they die, that is where your loved one is. Not just the heart, or the corneas, or yada, yada...."

This brain business creeps me out in general, and I had that weird thought of "what if you got a murder's hand" or a "murderer's brain" transplanted (well the latter could never happen.) But again the Minister discussed that we "have gone to a better place", that our body parts are not US when we die. Again, that was his POV, but he was a minister and social worker and interested in mental health issues.

At any point, as rula says, logic has to prevail at some point. And yes, I am infinitely doubtful of this sort of thing. Also, there have been SO many transplants over the years ... was it Christian Barnard, or DeBakey ... I never remember when the first heart transplant occurred, but at any rate, there would be a HUGE body of evidence about this.

This appears to be something of an urban legend. *One does hear stories of people however who become close with the family of a donar sp? why doesn't tha look right? doner? anyway. They then SHARE memories of the loved one who gave to the recipient and the recipient feels closer to the donor. THAT makes sense to me.*

But I am looking for scientific explanations. That's just me. Again, everyone is entitiled to believe or NOT believe in something. But re: both sides of the coin, false hope is as dangerous as real belief in an experience.

C'est moi, all I can say. And again, it is SO difficult to discuss this on the internet. So much easier if we could all have a chat.

PS -- if anyone cares LITERALLY to donate your brain to research ... you have to fill it out as an addendum to general organ donation upon your demise .... contact http://www.brainbank.mclean.org .... YES IT CREEPS ME OUT. I don't necessarily want my brain in slices under a microscope, yet those brains that have been donated are of great value in brain research already. (That addy is on my squishy little stress ball brain right here, LOL)

Cheers, :shock: OMG, it creeps me out, LOL. The minister and I had a fine laugh over a cuppa Joe. He understood.
D


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Dreamer said:


> C'est moi, all I can say. And again, it is SO difficult to discuss this on the internet. So much easier if we could all have a chat.


Yes I totally agree on this one. It always sounds so great in my mind but comes out very disjointed when I write it. Plus we can perceive what people say differently (ie positively or negatively) when we dont have facial expressions or voice tone to deal with. I can admit to that definetely.

But I know you have a very scientific mind Dreamer, and alas I dont so of course we are always going to find things to discuss/argue about. I do try and keep it civil these days though


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

http://www.capegateway.gov.za/eng/pubs/ ... fo/C/99478

"Groote Schuur Hospital was placed centre stage in the world's spotlight when Professor Christiaan Barnard performed the first human heart transplant on the third of December 1967. Sadly, Mr Louis Washkansky (pictured left) only lived for 18 days, succumbing in the end to pneumonia. His new heart beat strongly to the end."

1967! Yes, it was Barnard. It was significant in my life as my father was a thoracic surgeon. This brought him to tears. He went to a conference to hear Barnard speak. He brought back a heart that was autographed by Barnard which I'M SICK ABOUT THIS, was lost in all the moves that occurred re: my father over the years.

It was VERY shortly after I had just turned 9 years old. This was 40 years ago. More scientific data would have been reported after 40 years!


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Jeremy,
Just saw your post.

Yup to all you say.
Peace,
D


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

There was a programme on tv on Channel 4 only a few weeks ago which talked about organ transplant memories. They interviewed people who had organ transplants and felt that they now knew the people whose organs they came from and some had memories, behaviours and habits from the other people :shock: , it freaked me out a bit as the people seemed very genuine and there were a few of them saying the same sort of thing and I could see no reason why they would make it up. I think this is a study a lot of the people were based on http://nexusmagazine.com/articles/CellularMemories.html

Its pretty strange to think about because I doubt if I lost part of my body I would feel like any less of a person or missing some of my consciousness, but then if our memories are stored in our bodies surely this will be the case. One view is that each part of our body contains the conscioussness of its totality but I think my brain is going to melt if I try to work this out so id better leave it.

By the way when I mentioned memories brought up by NSA I wasnt really referring to the sort of repressed memories a hypnotherapist might try to find, rather I was just referring to perhaps times when you fell over and hurt yourself as a child or some small shock, although this is just what I was told can happen not that I actually experienced it so it probably would have been better if I hadnt mentioned it.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Pablo said:


> There was a programme on tv on Channel 4 only a few weeks ago which talked about organ transplant memories. They interviewed people who had organ transplants and felt that they now knew the people whose organs they came from and some had memories, behaviours and habits from the other people :shock: , it freaked me out a bit as the people seemed very genuine and there were a few of them saying the same sort of thing and I could see no reason why they would make it up. I think this is a study a lot of the people were based on http://nexusmagazine.com/articles/CellularMemories.html
> 
> Its pretty strange to think about because I doubt if I lost part of my body I would feel like any less of a person or missing some of my consciousness, but then if our memories are stored in our bodies surely this will be the case. One view is that each part of our body contains the conscioussness of its totality but I think my brain is going to melt if I try to work this out so id better leave it.
> 
> By the way when I mentioned memories brought up by NSA I wasnt really referring to the sort of repressed memories a hypnotherapist might try to find, rather I was just referring to perhaps times when you fell over and hurt yourself as a child or some small shock, although this is just what I was told can happen not that I actually experienced it so it probably would have been better if I hadnt mentioned it.


I was thinking about it more, and I am sure there could be many more explanations for this oddity. What about phantom limb pain/sensations?? The body part is not there, but they can still feel it, so that would put a dampener on the cellular memory theory. Perhaps it is an energetic link? Who knows. I certainly wouldnt have a clue.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

jeremy said:


> I was thinking about it more, and I am sure there could be many more explanations for this oddity. What about phantom limb pain/sensations?? The body part is not there, but they can still feel it, so that would put a dampener on the cellular memory theory. Perhaps it is an energetic link? Who knows. I certainly wouldnt have a clue.


I have an "answer" on this one. My FAVORITE researcher, neuropsychiatrist has been studying phantom limbs for some time.

2 books are a MUST read by him. Oh, Dr. V.S. Ramachandran, M.D., Ph.D.

*Phantoms in the Brain*
*A Tour of Human Consciousness* which has a portion on various perceptual distoritions including depersonalization!

The brain has a "body schema" ... that is a sort of map plotted out, from the time the brain starts to develop. There are cases of individuals who NEVER grew an arm in utero for example, and are born without an arm WHO FEEL PHANTOM PAIN.

Why? The brain, and this will give everyone here DP, LOL, ... well we "fill it out" -- it's predetermined map. So even if something is missing, the brain still has a "spot for it", like a puzzle, and the puzzle piece is missing.

In many ways this shows to what depth we are "predetermined", predisposed to be who we are. I can't explain this in depth, you have to read the book. Also, with mirrors, someone can be fooled OUT of the pain temporarily. They can feel all sorts of odd sensations -- being poked, horrible things like having the fingers clench into their palms -- that aren't there!

Also, if you read his theories on consciousness -- YOU MUST, it is a MUST read to understand perceptual distortion, you will see these things not so much as "oddities", but strange phenomena (NOT the norm) that explains the NORM.

Also, I was thinking. Think how many people receive blood transfusions. I suppose that is more temporary, yet, why wouldn't these millions of people over the years adapt the personality of the blood donor.

Also, I read about, cough, sperm and CSFluid. The CSFluid is contained along with the fluid in the brain, so it is unlikely it would even mix with the semen which is made up of completely different things.

There are myths about semen and menstruation that date back eons about the "magical" powers of both.

You have to Google these things, and read all angles. I've noticed that on Google many false claims are near the top. They get hit after hit that keep them at the top.

Anyway, I INSIST that people read Ramachandran. Or even Oliver Sacks, M.D. -- two neurologists really who delve into the most complex things in the brain.

Ramachandran has shown up on PBS and on BBC, etc. He is now at UCSD and I'd pay to see him for 2 minutes.

Also see the film "Awakenings" with De Niro and Robin Williams. Williams plays Sacks. The story is about a certain type of ... I can't remember what it's called ... they are frozen, but they are awakened with high doses of L-Dopa. True stories. It's an older film, but it is NOT dated and very interesting.

Cheers,
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

This type of work, scientific, tested over and over again, is what convinces me about the complexity of the mind.

And stories of people with NEUROLOGICAL problems help explain psychological problems. I'll post for the millionth time Ramachandran's theory on DP/DR. Not saying that is his specialty. It is a theory, but he researches human consciousness regularly. Tumors, epilepsy that cause odd experiences in brains. Let me get the article. It's on my site now.


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Dreamer said:


> jeremy said:
> 
> 
> > I was thinking about it more, and I am sure there could be many more explanations for this oddity. What about phantom limb pain/sensations?? The body part is not there, but they can still feel it, so that would put a dampener on the cellular memory theory. Perhaps it is an energetic link? Who knows. I certainly wouldnt have a clue.
> ...


Interesting stuff, definetely worth more research on my part when my brain is in the right state. Yes actually I have seen that movie. I really enjoyed it. Made me cry at the end though.
Re: CSF and sperm, all I could find was a highly nutritious fluid with the absence of CSF, but at least we know of a "superfood" if we get stranded on a desert island anytime soon.. :shock:


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Dreamer said:


> The story is about a certain type of ... I can't remember what it's called ... they are frozen, but they are awakened with high doses of L-Dopa. True stories.
> 
> Cheers,
> D


I think its called catatonic, not sure though.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

THIS BOOK IS A MUST READ. IF YOU WANT TO UNDERSTAND THE BRAIN. AND IT IS READER FRIENDLY. IT ISN'T SIMPLE READING, BUT IT IS FASCINATING. ALSO MOST ANYTHING BY OLIVER SACKS.

*A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness 
V.S. Ramachandran, M.D., Ph.D.
Pi Press 2004, Pages 90-93.
Dr. Ramachandran from his BBC Reich Lecture:*

-------------------------------------------------------
Dreamer comment:
I'd like to underline EVERYTHING in this to make my points and Ramachandran's points, but that would be useless. You have to read this whole section. It starts with Capgras, then Cotard's the DP/DR! He finds similarities.

I'm not saying this is the final answer, or that it applies to everyone, but it may fit with some of us. And this is the infancy of brain research no matter how advanced and more complicated this is.

This is layperson friendly reading, and it is still difficult. Imagine the journal articles on this. Search Capgras, Cotard's, Phatom Limbs, and Depersonalization into http://www.pubmed.gov and you will find abstracts, not full articles even, that take an hour to figure.

You cannot depend on the internet itself for hard core answers to these complex questions. I love this kind of study, and I know one zillionth of what someone like Ramachandran knows. And he may change his mind tomorrow.

But that's what it takes to understand the complexity of the brain!

*Nothing in this world is simple. The brain is infinitely complex, perhaps beyond our understanding, ever. And we are ALL unique, ever single person on the face of the planet.*
End Dreamer Comment.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Section of Ramachandran's BBC interview:
"I'd now like to remind you of a syndrome we discussed in my first lecture, the Capgras delusion. So, the patient has been in a head injury, say a car accident. He seems quite normal in most respects, neurologically intact, but suddenly starts saying his mother is an impostor. She's some other woman pretending to be my mother. Now why would this happen, especially after a head injury? Now remember, he's quite normal in all other respects.

Well, it turns out in this patient the wire that goes from the visual areas to the emotional core of the brain, the limbic system and the amygdala, that's been cut by the accident. So he looks at the mother and since the visual areas in the brain concerned with recognising faces is not damaged, he says, Hey it looks just like my mother. But then there is no emotion because that wire taking that information to the emotional centres is cut. So he says, If this is my mother how come I don't experience any emotions? This must be some other strange woman. She's an impostor. Well, how do you test this?

It turns out you can measure the gut-level emotional reaction that someone has to a visual stimulus - or any stimulus - by measuring the extent to which they sweat. Believe it or not, all of you here - if I show you something exciting, emotionally important, you start sweating to dissipate the heat that you're going to generate from exercise, from action. And I can measure the sweating by putting two electrodes in your skin, changes in skin resistance - and if skin resistance falls, this is called the Galvanic Skin Response.

So every time anyone of you here looks at tables and chairs, there's no Galvanic Skin Response because you don't get emotionally aroused if you look at a table or a chair. If you look at strangers there's no Galvanic Skin Response. But if you look at lions and tigers and - as it turns out - if you look at your mother, you get a huge, big Galvanic Skin Response. And you don't have to be Jewish, either. Anybody here, looking at your mother, you get a huge, big Galvanic Skin Response when you look at your mother.

Well, what happens to the patient? We've tried this on patients. The patient looks at chairs and tables, nothing happens. But then we show him a picture of his mother on the screen, no Galvanic Skin Response. It's flat - supporting our idea that there's been a disconnection between vision and emotion.

Now the Capgras delusion is bizarre enough, but I'll tell you about an even more bizarre disorder. This is called the Cotard's syndrome, in which the patient starts claiming he is dead. I suggested that this is a bit like Capgras except that instead of vision alone being disconnected from the emotional centres in the brain, all the senses, everything, gets disconnected from the emotional centres. So that nothing he looks at in the world makes any sense, has any emotional significance to this person, whether he sees it or touches it or looks at it. Nothing has any emotional impact. And the only way this patient can interpret this complete emotional desolation is to say, Oh, I'm dead, doctor. However bizarre it seems to you, it's the only interpretation that makes sense to him.

*Now Capgras and Cotard are both rare syndromes. But there's another disorder, a sort of mini-Cotard's that's much more commonly seen in clinical practice ... It's called Derealisation and Depersonalisation. It's seen in acute anxiety, panic attacks, depression and other dissociative states. Suddenly the world seems completely unreal - like a dream. Or you may feel that you are not real - Doctor, I feel like a zombie. Why does this happen? As I said, it's quite common.*

I think it involves the same circuits as Capgras and Cotard's. You've all heard of the phrase, playing possum. An opossum when chased by a predator suddenly loses all muscle tone and plays dead. Why? This is because any movement by the possum will encourage the predatory behaviour of the carnivore - and carnivores also avoid dead infected food. So playing dead is very adaptive for the possum.

*Following the lead of Martin Roth and Sierra and Berrios, I suggested Derealisation and Depersonalisation and other dissociative states are an example of playing possum in the emotional realm. And I'll explain. It's an evolutionary adaptive mechanism. Remember the story of Livingstone being mauled by a lion.*

He saw his arm being ripped off but felt no pain or even fear. He felt like he was detached from it all, watching it all happen. The same thing happens, by the way, to soldiers in battle or sometimes even to women being raped.

During such dire emergencies, the anterior cingular in the brain, part of the frontal lobes, becomes extremely active. This inhibits or temporarily shuts down your amygdala and other limbic emotional centres, so you suppress potentially disabling emotions like anxiety and fear - temporarily. But at the same time, the anterior cingular makes you extremely alert and vigilant so you can take the appropriate action.

Now of course in an emergency this combination of shutting down emotions and being hyper-vigilant at the same time is useful, keeping you out of harm's way. It's best to do nothing than engage in some sort of erratic behaviour. But what if the same mechanism is accidentally triggered by chemical imbalances or brain disease, when there is no emergency. You look at the world, you're intensely alert, hyper-vigilant, but it's completely devoid of emotional meaning because you've shut down your limbic system. And there are only two ways for you to interpret this dilemma. Either you say the world isn't real - and that's called Derealisation. Or you say, I'm not real, I feel empty - and that's called Depersonalisation.

Epileptic seizures originating in this part of the brain can also produce these dreamy states of Derealisation and Depersonalisation. And, intriguingly, we know that during the actual seizure when the patient is experiencing Derealisation, you can obtain a Galvanic Skin Response and there's no response to anything. But once he comes out of the seizure, fine, he's normal. And all of this supports the hypothesis that I'm proposing."

*?V.S. Ramachandran, M.D., Ph.D.
From the Transcript of The 2003 BBC Reich Lecture later expanded into the book:
A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness,
Pi Press, 2004*


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

jeremy said:


> Dreamer said:
> 
> 
> > The story is about a certain type of ... I can't remember what it's called ... they are frozen, but they are awakened with high doses of L-Dopa. True stories.
> ...


*They have become this way from an encephalitis epidemic. Catatonia is one form of schizoprhenia, this is not what is wrong with them.*

And yes, a tear-jerker! based on a true story. Based on Oliver Sacks' book of the same title. I saw Oliver Sacks at a lecture in L.A. Williams is EXACTLY like him. He's sort of an "absent minded professor", and De Niro is BRILLIANT.

*Awakenings* with Robert De Niro and Robin Williams, 1990
from the IMDB:

"A new doctor finds himself with a ward full of comatose patients. He is disturbed by them and the fact that they have been comatose for decades with no hope of any cure. When he finds a possible chemical cure he gets permission to try it on one of them. When the first patient awakes, he is now an adult having gone into a coma in his early teens. The film then delights in the new awareness of the patients and then on the reactions of their relatives to the changes in the newly awakened."


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## jeremy (Apr 28, 2006)

Interesting article. If I am right, is he saying that DP/DR is an adaptive/safety mechanism from extreme fear and panic and scientifically explaining what happens in the brain when this is occuring?? That is should I say in people with anxiety, panic etc not those with head injuries etc


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

jeremy said:


> Interesting article. If I am right, is he saying that DP/DR is an adaptive/safety mechanism from extreme fear and panic and scientifically explaining what happens in the brain when this is occuring?? That is should I say in people with anxiety, panic etc not those with head injuries etc


Yes, he sees this as the "fight or flight response" gone awry.

I think this is what those of us who are anxious are experiencing.

For those with "Primary DP" they MAY experience the same thing -- but that is RARE. Also, those who have a brain tumor, or epilepsy, or a drug experience with this symptom, I think I believe that there is the same pathway involved.

We describe many things the same way.

But I think this DP related to anxiety is one disorder, DP caused by a tumor/epilepsy can FEEL the same but is obviously not psychiatric.

So confusing. But "all roads lead to Rome" -- all of us who experience the perceptual distortion of DP -- I think we ALL FEEL THE SAME THING. As when we experience Deja Vu, pathological or not (some get trapped in deja vu!) it is the SAME experience. Something has gone "wrong" somewhere with those of us who have repeated lengthy experiences of DP/DR that interfere with our lives.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

And then this leads us to the tight connection between psychiatry and neurology. I FEEL this, in my own experience as a neurological HORROR. When it is really bad, I cannot see it as anything but neurological. Someone in there, in my brain, flipped the wrong switch, or a connection went loose.

Seriously! :shock:

But I think the FEELING of DP, is DP, is DP. It can vary in different descriptions, but I think anyone who feels DP, is experiencing basically the same thing whatever the cause. Someone who gets it from an auto accident head injury, describes what we describe as our experience w/anxiety, etc.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

And then again, all of this may be garbage. But I feel this is the correct direction. These theories, Berrios and Sierra as well, make the most sense to me.

And many here disagree with me, and that's AOK. 8) 
Cheers,
D
End of computer session.

. . . . . . . . . . . . .


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2007)

Dreamer said:


> THIS BOOK IS A MUST READ. IF YOU WANT TO UNDERSTAND THE BRAIN. AND IT IS READER FRIENDLY. IT ISN'T SIMPLE READING, BUT IT IS FASCINATING. ALSO MOST ANYTHING BY OLIVER SACKS.
> 
> *A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness
> V.S. Ramachandran, M.D., Ph.D.
> ...


I have to agree with you on this Dreamer. I have read "A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness"
I couldn't put it down, it was a very interesting read. I have read some Oliver Sacks, "The Man Who Thought He Was a Hat" Another great book.

Greg


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## Curious (Jun 13, 2021)

jeremy said:


> Has anyone on here had any experience with NSA? (That is Network Spinal Analysis, not No Strings Attached). Its energy work, based on the spinal cord . I have read some opinions by certain scientists to say that the subconscious mind is based in the spinal cord. Just wondering what others think about this concept also?


I'm curious if it's possible to do Network Spinal Analysis in a manner that might actually hurt a patient. I'm a Reiki master and I know that you can't run Reiki energy 'wrong', but is this also possible with NSA? There have been several times over the last 10 months where I don't feel like any energy has been run through me and then I feel worse when I stand up, and progressively worse than I ever felt when I first came over the next few days.


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## Curious (Jun 13, 2021)

[rula] said:


> yea, and I want my money back! :evil:
> 
> I think the whole thing is a total rip off. The room first of all was always full of at least 8 different people at a time, and not a single person ever had the type of spontaneous kundalini-type awakening, uncontrollable need to cry or laugh, or anything other than just feeling extremely lightheaded after the session due the extreme deep breathing for a half hour (which they cleverly referred to as the new "transformed" energy in you...good one! LOL) Even my friend who originally recommended it to me and stuck with it much longer than I did eventually wanted more than just a tap on her back for all her money and went back to her regular chiro. but hey, it's possible, I suppose, that our chiropractor just sucked at it.


Did you or your friend ever feel WORSE afterward? Or ever not feel light headed afterward?


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