# I'm kidding myself...there really is no escape. Here's why.



## Guest (Dec 5, 2005)

I'm only going to address one facet of my illness for now because that's really all my brain can take. I'm obsessed with death. This affects me every minute that I'm awake. It puts a dark cloud over everything I do, or TRY to do. I don't know how to sum it up, but I am: 1) convinced that I will die in my sleep (I'm 20) 2) PARALYZED with fear over what happens after you die, i.e. the idea of eternity, and something NEVER ENDING, heaven v. hell (for various reasons, I am not a Christian. I believe it's a religion of intolerance and fear, and the demands required of a "believer" are impossible for even the most faithful to adhere to. Read Bertrand Russell for some sound reasoning...) How can a mentally ill individual be held accountable for the pain and suffering inflicted upon him or her??? Certainly, a _loving_ God would understand. Oh, and He gave me cancer two years ago and I had to drop out of college!!!...but I digress.

Back to the topic at hand. If there is no eternity, then the thought of being in complete UNawareness, darkness, not even KNOWING that you don't exist anymore is UNBEARABLE for me to comprehend. I don't know which option is worse, and the crux of it all is the fact that no one knows the truth. When you think about it, there is no point to life if we all die. Why should I go to college, (not that I'm capable of studying a chapter or writing a paper in the condition I am anyway) or set any sort of goal for myself???

Here is the point that I don't think any individual with a thread of common sense can deny- I have an AWARENESS that I am going to die. As long as I have that knowledge in my brain, I can always be afraid of it. NO amount of therapy, no magical pill, no special diet or exercise can take that away.

Quite frankly, I don't know why more, or most people don't think about death. I don't see how you can not.

I never asked to be born. This is torture.


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## lemontea (Aug 8, 2005)

I believe everyone think about death sometimes - but I, personally, think it's better not to think about it, because, whatever comes after death, it's something no human can ever understand. Why to waste your time and get depressed becaus of some thinking that doesn't lead anywhere?

You are alive and you are supposed to live. The meaning of life is to have a good one. That's it, that's the only thing that makes sense, whatever you believe in.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2005)

Sorry, not good enough for me. I don't even know what it means to live a "good" life. I might as well sell all of my possessions and ship off to Calcutta.


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## JossStick (Nov 8, 2005)

I've gone through what you're going through and it's just a stage. One day you will reach a point where you won't feel so anxious thinking about death.

The best thing I heard about this was "Don't worry so much about what will happen after death, just concentrate on spreading as much love and happiness as you can now."

Have you ever read spiritualist views on death? A book I'd reccommend is "What to do when you are dead" by Craig Hamilton Parker. After reading these books it puts dying in a much more positive light. And I'm sure you are open to different views on the dubject, so I'd give it a go.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2005)

Thank you for that recommendation. When I have the concentration to read, it's the only thing I have left to hold onto...and yes, I am open to different views, but terrified to do so. I was raised in a pretty strict Christian environment, (radical in my view) so I've been led to believe that it's God's way or the highway. Buddhism very much interests me, but my Christian upbringing tells me that I will burn in the fiery abyss of hell for questioning God's authority. I can't win. It would be pretty cool to come back as a tree or something though... :roll: But it's not true!! :x


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## lemontea (Aug 8, 2005)

"Good life" may be different for different people...but what I mean is to enjoy it the best you can.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2005)

Do you think your fear of death is associated with having cancer two years ago?

I sometimes get this but only, occasionally, when I wake up abruptly at night. I can feel this strange pressure on my body and I have this terrifying understanding of death, like I looked it right in the eye or something just a moment before. The only other time I felt that kind of terror was before one of my kids was born, I had a vision of hell when I was in the final stage.

The odd thing is, when I am awake I don't fear death. Not that I want to die, but as long as I live long enough that my kids are grown up by the time I die, I'm more or less okay with it... :roll: I think the body is temporal but the soul is immortal.

Remember, eternity doesn mean "lasting forever," it means "timelessness."


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## Mollusk (Nov 12, 2005)

I'm addicted to procrastination so i'm trying to view death as a deadline. If i was immortal i probably would get nothing done, i would just tell myself i would do it later. Like lemontea said, try to make the best of it and try to enjoy it while it lasts. Its a struggle especially with a mental condition, but you got to try. otherwise life is just a waste. I don't have a religion, but i imagine that if there is a god he probably hates waste. Make the most out of everything.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2005)

littlecrocodile, in regards to your question about the cancer-No. The type I had (thyroid) was 99% curable and there was simply no way I was going to die from it. Besides, being in the hospital, waited on hand and foot, getting attention without having to say a word...what I wouldn't give to go through it all over again. I prayed that when I went for my follow-up last month that it had spread to my lungs, brain, everywhere. No such luck.

How do we know the soul is immortal? From a scientific standpoint, the brain/thinking cannot survive bodily death. It's all chemical. And it just flat out doesn't make sense. You die, everything ends, you decay. 

By the way lc, I like your avatar. Is it a specific painting? Very pretty, serene.


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## Milan (May 29, 2005)

soul voice,

I've had many moments in my life where I have had paralysing fear of death. First time was when I was about 9 and it lasted about two years. I had it bad about a month ago but I'm more consumed by my weird perceptions at the moment to worry about death. At times when my DP is induced by thinking about death I'm just mentally screwed.

You will obsess less about it and the mundane ordinary things in life that seem so useless and trivial will come back into the foreground of your consciousness and regain their normal illusionary meaning. But this won't help the utter emptiness and uselessness you feel about life and what it means at this current moment. You are not the only one that thinks about this stuff, believe you me.

Try to lose yourself in your activities and enjoy the moments as much as you can until you start to obsess less about death. Time will diminish the hurt. At my worst I was DPed/DRed, depressed and terrified and I thought life was a total waste of time and saw no reason to live (but did not think of suicide) if we are to die one day. And I was only nine! But I'm now in my 30's and have a wife and family. It will pass...trust me.


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## derangedred (Apr 13, 2005)

I think maybe, Ill make a half decent response here and hopefully my "crude attitude" wont cause problems with anyone else. I often wonder about death, Ive thought many times about the philisopical reasons. Ive even examined the scientists point of view of life. If we originated from monkeys, where did the monkey's come from? I refuse to believe in relegion because no one knows what its like to die, unless in fact you are dead. I believe though that theres something more to life then this. I've lost a lot of initiave to do things though, I must say..I don't really care what happens to me anymore because I made the decision to start drugs a few years ago and Ive forever f**ked up my life with depersonalization and derealization and all I can do is live with the fact that I fu**ed up. I don't like to bother going to school, although I do..but why is it that society makes the ideal life considered as getting a good education, growing up with a good job..buying a house with a white picket fence having a boy and a girl who do good in school, having a wife that cooks a delicious meal, then growing old together and slowly fall into death. Who interpreted that as good? Why is that..if all I want to do for the rest of my life, is lie in a field of flowers, smoke some ganj and lie there with my boyfriend forever? Why is that its mandatory that you go to school and live your life by the book. Life is so annoying in a way and I think death will be a relief. Im not saying Im going to kill myself, because I think its weak and selfish to do that. Im also not saying that people who have commited suicide, didn't have a logical excuse. I don't know..life really bothers me, mostly society. I guess I was just born as a cat in a field of sheep. My perscpectives on life are so different from everyone elses. I don't even enjoy christmas. The only part of Christmas I like is being with my family and having dinner. I don't care about presents, christmas trees or money. I could go a christmas without any gifts at all and I'd be perfectly fine then that. Im not selfish in the slightest way. Death is really a thing of mystery but if you read my ending quote "seeing death as the end of life, is like seeing the horizon as the end of the ocean" I believe that with every thought in my body. I used to be like you, and think about dying everyday and just rotting, but there has to be more to that, there has to be. We have no answers on how we were created or where we came from, so what makes you think it ends at death? Before we were born we lived in another human being, theres another life form right there. We were reborn into the owrld, and will die and go on to another step. Chances are you probablly wont die in your sleep and thats just a psychological thing. I know its hard not to be afraid of death because I get myself quite worked up about it never ending and what ends up happening and maybe you just want it to end. Now you've got me anxious just talking about it, but I try not to think about it and think of the things I have now..and what affects me now..and death can't be that bad if you're with people you've loved in the past. Its very unfortunate that you've contracted Cancer, but don't let that make you think your lifespand has been shortened in any sense. Just because you have cancer, doesn't mean you will die in your sleep. If you did infact die in your sleep, wouldn't it be better then being run over or anything? Maybe you should get your doctor to perscribe you some sleeping pills. They will help.


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## peacedove (Aug 15, 2004)

w/oathought.voice.soul. said:


> ...and yes, I am open to different views, but terrified to do so. I was raised in a pretty strict Christian environment, (radical in my view) so I've been led to believe that it's God's way or the highway. Buddhism very much interests me, but my Christian upbringing tells me that I will burn in the fiery abyss of hell for questioning God's authority.


I am also afraid to accept any other religion because of my upbringing.

Infinity, hell, heaven, God, it all scares the sh*t out of me. I know I was thinking about the beginning of time when I first got DP, but I don't really think about it anymore and the fear is still there.

I guess that doesn't make sense cuz my therapist says you have to have a thought to have a feeling... so I must be thinking of it to be scared. Maybe it's not a conscious thought. Or maybe my therapist doesn't know what he's talking about.



w/oathought.voice.soul. said:


> I never asked to be born. This is torture.


I am constantly saying this. And why are we being punished for being sinners when God created us sinners?



w/oathought.voice.soul. said:


> Here is the point that I don't think any individual with a thread of common sense can deny- I have an AWARENESS that I am going to die. As long as I have that knowledge in my brain, I can always be afraid of it. NO amount of therapy, no magical pill, no special diet or exercise can take that away.


I have similar thoughts about eternity. It's hard to explain. It's like I know too much, or see, or sense too much or something. I'm too aware. And as long as I am aware I don't see how the fear can leave me.

But then someone sent me a PM with some links that brought a little hope back.

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/andy/forums/o ... s/2941.htm

Here Andy says "Or in the case of DP it might be more appropriate to say that once I saw too much, and now I see as I should." He was helped with meds so maybe we can be too.

http://www.depersonalization.info/overview.html

This had some interesting stuff that may apply to this post.

"Their poignant observations run deeper than simply thinking in circles about the nature of existence they feel the black emptiness of existence that post World War II philosophers struggled to portray. It's what the French have come to call Le Coup de Vide the blow of the void."

"Philosophers wrote about it and theorized about it. But D-people feel it, and the feeling can be too much to bear."

This site that explains how I feel so well also mentions success with meds.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2005)

> How do we know the soul is immortal? From a scientific standpoint, the brain/thinking cannot survive bodily death. It's all chemical. And it just flat out doesn't make sense. You die, everything ends, you decay.
> 
> By the way lc, I like your avatar. Is it a specific painting? Very pretty, serene.


I agree with you logically; belief in God and an immortal soul is illogical on many levels, but so are other things in life. Falling in love is an illogical feeling, for instance. But people do all sorts of things based on it happening to them.

I've had experiences where my soul left my body (and yes it could have been a hallucination or misfiring chemicals in my brain) but the sensation was so real that I can't not believe in it at this point.

So is it a fear of the end of your "consciousness" that you fear, or death in general? I mean "fear if death" can encompass so many things... I'm just trying to understand the specifics.

My avatar is a painting by Chinami Nakajima, "Shidare Ume." I like changing my avatar frequently but am hooked on this one and can't bring myself to get rid of it!


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## moonDust (May 18, 2005)

Hey, using the nanotechnology immortality it's just a matter of time.

I said it to someone and he told me that it's just makes him more anxious. I don't know why, i believe it's possible.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2005)

You posed a good question lc--I fear death itself in the sense that I will die not having lived, not having contributed anything to society, not having experienced love, not having been the daughter my parents deserve...on and on. Going through the rest of my time on earth with nothing to define me but an illness is something I really fear.

Um, the consciousness/lack thereof-- it's hard to say but I guess it's what I fear the most. I just can't fathom not having any awareness. It's so very hard to explain, I don't think I'm putting it the right way. 

I think it also might be the lack of control I have over when and where and how my death will occur. If I can't live a perfect life, can't I at least have some kind of power at the end? I have to admit, I've already planned out what kind of service I'd like to have and where I'd like to be buried. I'm so afraid of not having closure. But, I'm actually considering scrapping all of it and just saying, "throw me in the nearest dumpster." Because-- NONE of it matters! I don't matter. Wow, I've really got my head in a tizzy now. 

What kind of experience did you have, exactly? (If you don't mind my asking) Once I had a pretty freaky episode of sleep paralysis where I was briefly observing myself from above, but I don't think there's any body/soul connection to be made there. ??? Ugh, who knows...


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

I know this is taking the cheap way out but i'm too damn tired to write more right now. I will, however, expand on my thoughts/beliefs more thoroughly and will post something in the religion section regarding it.

Right now, please allow me to spew out a poppy catch-phrase which pretty much encapsulates and addresses a lot of the fears about death/eternity, etc.

God transcends logic.

You can't apply terrestrial motives and thoughts to the way an omniscient being would think/behave...and it's the height of human hubris to do so. By all means, question His existence (I capitalize the "H" there only for sake of form...not for dramatic effect), but not by using such a clumsy, pedestrian tool as logic. Reason and logic are mighty tools for keeping the clocks ticking, but even these cornerstones of wisdom find themselves humbled in the presence of powerful spiritual feelings like faith and love, neither of which abide by the datums and dictates of our pale friend, Logic.

My point is that we mustn't reduce everything to logic. It works wonderfully well when dealing with tax returns, chess, and Newtonian physics, but using it in a conversation about God, in a "Well, if He was a nice God, He wouldn't have killed all those babies in Africa..." way of speaking is about as inappropriate as using hockey metaphors to explain the way a lightbulb works.

I'm sorry to hear you're perpetually afraid, VoiceSoul. I brood over the same things, and i'd be lying if i said i wasn't afraid to die either (although, like urbn, I also tend to use it as a motivator to accomplish things in this life as well...although it rarely works...By the way...that was a great line urbn: "If i was immortal, I'd never get anything done" :lol: ). I think (and i don't presume to know you by saying this)...but i think that you'll find that this particular obsession will subside after awhile...i mean the intensity of it...the unrelenting pressure of that fear. Death and eternity are awfully big things to be thinking about hour after hour. But I really believe that it's incredibly naive to believe that our current mortal state is a brief little bubble which burst out of nothingness only to sink back into it after a few decades. I mean, that's just ridiculous.

Best of luck,

s.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2005)

Thank you, sebastian.


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## JossStick (Nov 8, 2005)

Hey I've been working all day, just come on to say I was raised catholic and you have the exact same fears as I do. Burning in hell etc. But I really believe now that life is too short to just spend obsessing over which religion and stuff. I'd just try to live as best you can, being kind to others, being a generally moral-minded person. I think a clearer idea of religion comes later on in life when you've experienced a lot more to know what life's all about.


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## Scattered (Mar 8, 2005)

Sites of interest:

http://home.btclick.com/scimah/

http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/V ... cience.htm

http://www.buddhanet.net/

I don't believe in God as a creator or human-like being or any other simplified conceptions that humans choose to create. In my mind, there cannot be an all loving, all powerful, all knowing being that allows the needless hate, suffering, and destruction that occurs in the world today. The argument of free will makes no sense to me either, as there are so many who are born into social conditions and irrational situations; They are simply unable to bring themselves out of these conditions and exert their supposedly free will to better their lives or the world that they live in. A God that cannot be understood by human beings, one that demands an irrational and confusing faith without realization, is one that I am not willing to believe in or dedicate my life to.

I have a very bad problem when it comes to the subjects of death or suffering. I can't put these concepts into a traditional theistic framework that makes any sense. I lay in bed at night envisioning all of the horrible things that are happening around the world and how easy it is to become a victim of meaningless violence. I think about how the body is adapted to this world, yet is extremely vulnerable to disease that can lead to a slow painful death, or the horrific nature of something as simple as blunt trauma. I think of what it must feel like for someone going through a bad car accident and how the bones in a persons body can literally collapse and shatter. I also ask, why anyone should be asked to go through such a terrible experience.

I don't believe there is an easy answer. I don't think that we should simply expect for there to be some sort of panacea that makes all our fear and angst disappear in an instant, however, there are other philosophies of life that begin to make sense of the world. I posted those links to Buddhist websites, not because I'm a Buddhist, but because its a worldview that, when seperated from some of its accumulated cultural underpinnings, is very simple and rational. Don't ever expect for these fears to simply vanish and don't immediately trust anything that promises to make them go away. Try to focus on something else, at the very least you may be able to quiet down the part of your mind thats making these thoughts into a destructive obsession. Its a topic that should be thought about but only from a more clear and levelheaded perspective.


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## fingertingle (Sep 29, 2005)

I would greet actual unconsciousness with open arms. The point of life if you can't conceive totally of what is beyond life is the here and now. The point of some of the things people do in life? I don't know. But to be constantly bothered by thoughts like death is to waste life just like anything else-college, whatever, in a less comforting way. You have this space to occupy, entertain, satisfy - its kind of ridiculous and yet it's a good way to put things if you feel helpless, at least it has helped a little for me. Though, to be honest, dark unconsciousness sounds like a peach.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2005)

I think ur thinking is off


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## brett88 (Sep 21, 2005)

I was raised a christian and i try to believe in God the best i can, as difficult as that is with the thoughts i get from my DR and DP. I also think about death and eternity often, and the incomprehendable never-ending aspect of it. The biggest and most recurring thought i have is, if God exists and wants us to live for him, then whats the point of having life in the first place? If alls were here for is to spread the word of God and convince others to believe in him, why did he even create man-kind? If its his creation, why do we have to spread the word of him, and what purpose does it serve anyway? What, do we convince people to believe in him so we go to heaven when we die? If thats the case, why even go through all that? Why not just abolish Earth and have everybody live in Heaven where there is no wrong or sin?
Also in regards to eternity, why are we condemned to hell for all of eternity for not believing in God or Jesus? People live for an average of 72 years, which is barely even a blip in the big scheme of things, and is absolutely nothing compared to eternity. So if someone dies without Christ in there heart theyre sent to Hell for all of eternity? No second chances?! An Eternity!!

Doesnt make much sense to me...


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

brett88 said:


> The biggest and most recurring thought i have is, if God exists and wants us to live for him, then whats the point of having life in the first place? If alls were here for is to spread the word of God and convince others to believe in him, why did he even create man-kind? If its his creation, why do we have to spread the word of him, and what purpose does it serve anyway? What, do we convince people to believe in him so we go to heaven when we die? If thats the case, why even go through all that? Why not just abolish Earth and have everybody live in Heaven where there is no wrong or sin?
> ..


You're asking questions that can not be answered here...on Earth i mean. How do you expect humanity, which is famous for it's ethnocentricism and various other ego-related debilities, to put themselves in God's shoes and understand his "logic" when we can't even stop killing each other long enough to learn about other cultures and belief systems here on earth.

You're also confusing organized religion with God. God isn't something to be inhaled and digested from books and lectures and contradictory dogma. God is beyond our understanding, as are His motives and plans. Human beings are cultivated in an extraordinarily uneventful environment. We're predictible, clumsy, and boring, and we find ourselves fused together with this hubristic logic which encourages us to find a thesis and expand on it, picking apart loose bits of information which are entirely ambiguous, and conforming them to fit with our thesis. Religions are also guilty of this which is one of the reasons why a lot of people don't trust them (They are, after all, governed by fallible humans). But non-believers also use this kind of tunnel-vision deductive reasoning. Just as an example...let's use something Scattered said...



> In my mind, there cannot be an all loving, all powerful, all knowing being that allows the needless hate, suffering, and destruction that occurs in the world today.


As far as i know, and i could be wrong because i'm not totally up on my theology, the only God which this quote describes is a Christian one. Mind you, i've never read the Koran, but it certainly details a monotheistic religious system, and there aren't very many of those. So, let's assume it's a Christian God he's talking about. In the bible, it also speaks of heaven, and what a glorious place it is, and how the meek shall inherit the earth and all that...the gist of it (and i'm sure i'm oversimplifying here but what the hell, i'm tired), is that while things may get really yucky down here on earth ("Down here on earth"...reminds me of a Nietzche quote..."Only the fool thinks of the stars as something _above_ him." The same could be said of God i suppose), they are made right at the gates of heaven, and glory is theirs.

I'm not saying that's what i necessarily believe...but a big problem of people griping about these supposed contradictions and inconsistencies aren't taking into account the whole story...and that's not even considering that Man wrote the bible...not God. That's like blaming a tree for blocking out the sun...or something like that. You know what i mean.

s.


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## brett88 (Sep 21, 2005)

First of all id like to say thanks to Sebastion for his well written response, but i just have a couple of comments



> *sebastian wrote:*
> 
> ...I'm not saying that's what i necessarily believe...but a big problem of people griping about these supposed contradictions and inconsistencies aren't taking into account the whole story...and that's not even considering that Man wrote the bible...not God. That's like blaming a tree for blocking out the sun...or something like that. You know what i mean.


Yea i do know what you mean, but its like I said, I do try and believe in God because I am a christian and was raised one, but one (especially one with DP and DR) cant help but question the existance of God and eternity. Im also not blaming anything or doubting it, im just thinking this.



> *sebastian wrote:*
> 
> You're asking questions that can not be answered here...on Earth i mean.


Very true, but I'm not really asking questions though, Im thinking thoughts that id rather not think. Those were just examples of the thoguhts that go through my mind on about a weekly basis.


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## Scattered (Mar 8, 2005)

sebastian said:


> You're asking questions that can not be answered here...on Earth i mean. How do you expect humanity, which is famous for it's ethnocentricism and various other ego-related debilities, to put themselves in God's shoes and understand his "logic" when we can't even stop killing each other long enough to learn about other cultures and belief systems here on earth.
> 
> You're also confusing organized religion with God. God isn't something to be inhaled and digested from books and lectures and contradictory dogma. God is beyond our understanding, as are His motives and plans... non-believers also use this kind of tunnel-vision deductive reasoning. Just as an example...let's use something Scattered said...


I'm sorry but the whole "God is a mystery...we can never understand him..theres a reason for everything" is the oldest excuse theists use to back up a religion that is inherently contradictory. I'm not saying that there is no spiritual aspects of life. I'm simply saying that monotheism is the ultimate form of wishful thinking. Humans want to be delivered from responsibility from their lives, they want, in their worsts moments, to be delivered from their suffering by some all powerful god. A god that has been anthropomorphized by human beings to fulfill our needs. People need the concepts of salvation and deliverence because the world is a tough and confusing place. That doesn't change the fact that God, through monotheism, is created by man and filtered through his desires for a savior.

Logic or science may never be able to describe the spiritual realm, if such a place does exist. However, I still believe that as human beings we have limited but sufficient faculties to realize a rational conception of these spiritual aspects of life. To say not is tantamount to saying that we were made imperfectly. If people choose to believe in a savior that is above their ability to understand, who acts irrationally in order to fulfill his own higher and divine motives, then fine. I choose to believe in a spiritual life (if it does in fact exist) that is not governed by blind faith, but the individual who is the ultimate master and controller of his own life. The only way we can be saved is through our own minds, the only person who can save us or deliver us from suffering is ourselves.


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## agentcooper (Mar 10, 2005)

sebastian said:


> You can't apply terrestrial motives and thoughts to the way an omniscient being would think/behave...
> 
> s.


i think that is something more people need to realize. for us to think that we could even have the slightest comprehension of "god" is ridiculous. it would be like saying that our pet dogs or cats understand our thoughts and motives. they have an vague idea of what we're thinking (and especially our emotions) but our thoughts are so much more complex.


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## Scattered (Mar 8, 2005)

No I think this is the height of copping out. We can't understand a monotheistic God, thats for certain. We can't understand this God, because belief in this is inherently senseless, we have to fall back on an argument of our limitations. This is not because we are inherently unable to have any understanding of God, but because God requires us to relinquish our ability to think in order to justify his existence. There is no argument for the existence of God, there is faith and only faith. You can have faith that God exists but you can't make any meaningful or rational arguments about his existence. So if you have faith that God exists, thats perfectly fine.

The only reason to argue this point is not because of science, where God really has no place. Its more about common sense. Do you want to freely give of one of the aspects that makes you human -- Your ability to think, reason, investigate, and come to your own decision, in order to obediently follow the commandments of a religion? Do you really want to get tied into the conceptions of exclusivism that monotheism asserts? The idea that you either believe in my God or are punished eternally. For all the good that can come out of a dogmatic and moral religious system, there is always those negative aspects of it that encourage conflict, intolerance, and closemindedness.


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

Scattered said:


> There is no argument for the existence of God, there is faith and only faith.


Define faith. Define argument.

By saying there's no argument for the existence of God, you're simply stating "There is no argument for the existence of God according to the laws of empirical reasoning." Your statement, in fact, betrays the underlying assumption which corrupts most debate on this subject and is, yet again, evidence of the hubristic nature of man. That this reasoning is assumed as the sole method of understanding anything at all in the world is an all-too-human prejudice which has been instilled in most of humankind since birth. It totally disregards any manifestation of emotional intelligence or spiritual knowing or anything of that ilk.



> The only reason to argue this point is not because of science, where God really has no place. Its more about common sense. Do you want to freely give of one of the aspects that makes you human -- Your ability to think, reason, investigate, and come to your own decision, in order to obediently follow the commandments of a religion?


But you're obediently following the commandments of a religion too, Scattered. The religion of Empiricism. You speak of God and science as if they're two utterly distinct ideas. But these two things are inextricably linked. And what kind of science are you talking about? Our entire reality is based on the wild and inexplicible idiosynchrasies of quantum mechanics which embodies more of the attribtutes of God than any other thing on Earth. We currently have string theorists extrapolating further and further into the nether regions of faith and with each passing day asking it's disciples to take more and more for granted. Science gives us forces, but can't explain them. Science gives us theories without explanation. Science quantitatively arrives at conclusions based on the principles of the Scientific Method, that bright shining citadel of the Empirical religion, and gives us calculations which are derived from that most surreptitious of faiths.

This supercilious dismissal of religion by most so-called "Enlightened men" is the exact same kind of myopic arrogance that we used to see in Medieval times when the roles were reversed.



> I'm sorry but the whole "God is a mystery...we can never understand him..theres a reason for everything" is the oldest excuse theists use to back up a religion that is inherently contradictory.


Just because something is used as an excuse by some disreputable people, doesn't necessarily mean it's false. It's very important to separate Organized Religion from God. Atheists often lump the two together and tangle things up...and for good reason. It's a very powerful method of debate to link a stigmatic idea which has been poisoned by the misdeeds of disreputable men to that untouchable idea of an omniscient God.

Scattered, you make your point well and i understand where you're coming from. And i'm not out here to preach this or that religion. But i do believe in God. And that belief is not mired in fear or ignorance, but in recognizing the inevitability of such a being, and in being somewhat convinced of His existence through other methods of proof which don't necessarily subscribe to Empirical reasoning.

s.

(I use the words "somewhat convinced" because i still do harbour doubts from time to time, and i have a lot of learning to do before i can assert myself more confidently as a True Believer. But i'm liking what i see so far...  )


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## worldwideput (Nov 25, 2005)

I am actually reading Bertrand Russell right now (Why I am not a Christian) and do not find his arguments very compelling. I am a Christian and I am studying Apologetics. Apologetics concerns defending something. I am actually studying his book in making a case against Atheism. All of these "intellectual giants" sound good on paper but if you examine their arguments there are huge holes. Reading these authors is not good for your head or your heart: you have a disorder that is psychosomatic, mental, whatever you want to call it. It revolves around beliefs in your mind, probably deep in your subconscious. God can change your subconscious - he can work miracles down there. For out of the heart flow the springs of life. If I did not have a strong belief in God, I would have to believe that all of my suffering with this stuff was in vain - there would be no point to it. I commend you for hanging on as long as you have- that actually takes a lot of faith believe it or not. I just don't have enough faith to be an atheist: to believe that the world began from nothing and rushes aimlessly is counterintuitive and illogical. That would depress anyone. It takes a lot of faith to have that view though, a lot more faith than believing in God takes. How hard is it to believe that this world was designed? If you came across a watch in the middle of a field, would you assume that natural forces brought it together? The springs, the faceplate, the whole thing? Of course not. Chance could not have accomplished that in a million years. If a watch needs a designer, how much more a complex universe that is so intricately designed that a tip of the scales one way or the other would literally cause life to cease. You actually have a lot of faith. [/quote]


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## worldwideput (Nov 25, 2005)

God invented human reason. He is the Intelligent Mind behind it all. Any argument for God that leaves reason out of the equation needs to be thrown out. God does not want us to throw out our reason to believe in him. If I was asked to step into an elevator I would want to know within reason if it could hold me before I stepped in. There's nothing wrong with that. God is rational. It's all these people who don't understand the nature of God and go around scaring everybody who need their heads examined. God wants you to love Him and have a reverent fear of Him, not to live in terror for the rest of your life. What parent would do that to a child? Not a good one. God is the first Cause. There can not be an infinite regress of causes, because there were not an infinite number of moments before today. All CONTINGENT beings are caused. God is not contingent. It is good that everyone is thinking about eternity. God has set eternity in the hearts of men (Ecc.3:11) that is why we think about it often. He wants you to figure out where you are going to spend yours.


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## worldwideput (Nov 25, 2005)

Somebody is reading David Humer here...did you know this used to be the mission statement for Harvard: "Let every student be plainly instructed, and earnestly pressed to consider well, the maine end of life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternal life (John 17:3) and therefore to lay Christ in the bottome, as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and Learning. And Lord only giveth wisdome, let every one seriously set himself by prayer in secret to seeke it of him (Prov.2:3)." That is, until they accepted David Hume's test for meaning.


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

worldwideput said:


> If you came across a watch in the middle of a field, would you assume that natural forces brought it together? The springs, the faceplate, the whole thing? Of course not. Chance could not have accomplished that in a million years.


Well, if i were on the other side of the fence, i would argue that chance had far longer than a million years to accomplish the delicate balance that has made life on earth possible. The precise phenomenon which has granted life and a home to shelter it is labelled a Poincare miracle in some scientific circles, and it is argued that since everything is governed by laws of probability rather than certitude there is, for example, an infintisimally small chance that all the air in the room will congregate in one corner, asphixiating anyone in the room as they can't take in any oxygen. This WILL, according to the pundits, happen inevitably, at some point in time in some room somewhere. It's just that the odds are so low that it will almost certainly not happen at any point during our lifetime. Like this, it's argued that the specific conditions which enabled a universe which would be conducive to life existing in it, would inevitably occur at some point in time if the universe was constituted in such a way so as to expand and contract perpetually until such a condition arose. Essentially, when eternity (or eternity minus a day, or whatever one would call such a limitless temporal condition) is on the time table, anything is possible. And thus, life was born.

I must say though worldwideput, while i mostly agree with your first post, your second post is riddled with presumptions on the nature of God, and i find that kind of arrogance is precisely the kind of fodder that atheists feed off of, and frankly, they're right to do so. No one on either side of the fence should presume to understand His "logic" or "motives".

s.


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

Scattered said:


> We can't understand this God, because belief in this is inherently senseless, we have to fall back on an argument of our limitations. This is not because we are inherently unable to have any understanding of God, but because God requires us to relinquish our ability to think in order to justify his existence. There is no argument for the existence of God, there is faith and only faith. You can have faith that God exists but you can't make any meaningful or rational arguments about his existence. So if you have faith that God exists, thats perfectly fine.


You are mistaken. The truth is exactly the opposite of what you allege.

I recommend this book to you as an example:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/082450 ... e&n=283155


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## Scattered (Mar 8, 2005)

How is the existence of monotheistic God inevitable?


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

scattered wrote:



> I'm sorry but the whole "God is a mystery...we can never understand him..theres a reason for everything" is the oldest excuse theists use to back up a religion that is inherently contradictory. I'm not saying that there is no spiritual aspects of life. I'm simply saying that monotheism is the ultimate form of wishful thinking. Humans want to be delivered from responsibility from their lives, they want, in their worsts moments, to be delivered from their suffering by some all powerful god. A god that has been anthropomorphized by human beings to fulfill our needs. People need the concepts of salvation and deliverence because the world is a tough and confusing place. That doesn't change the fact that God, through monotheism, is created by man and filtered through his desires for a savior.


You speak as if *you* have all knowledge. Do you realize that? Are you claiming to know for sure that God does not exist, scattered, or is it just the way the words are coming out?

You really don't know if what you proclaim as truth is in fact the truth. I know that, and you know that, and so does anyone who reads this.

What you fail to acknowledge is that believers *do* have reasons for their faith, but you have not evidently been interested enough to read the ones that appeal to your rationality.


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## worldwideput (Nov 25, 2005)

Sebastian, thanks for the reply. From what I can tell you are somewhat of a believer, correct? Perhaps not sold on a personal, all-knowing, all-loving God, but a believer in a designer? If I am wrong, I apologize. For this conversation, let us assume that the Christian God exists. There are people, you seeming to be one of them, that posit that God's logic and ours are completely different. Can I completely identify with a God that created this whole show? No, because I am a contingent being and God is a Necessary Being. Anyways, my logic is not on the same level as God's but He would not make it so that I could never understand Him at all. That wouldn't make sense. Of course, I am a Christian and I believe He is personally involved in the most intricate details of life. Like I said, God is a God of reason - He is the Author of reason. He likes us to use it. We are made in His image - part of His image is reason. We can understand Him by analogy. thanks for listening and writing back.


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## worldwideput (Nov 25, 2005)

This may sound a bit radical to everyone. I am a Christian - I can honestly state that I believe a LOT can be known about God. More than most people can imagine. He wants us to know Him. Why would He have created us if He didn't want to have a relationship with us. That is counterintuitive. You have to seek after the truth like lost treasure, then you will find Him. I know Hiim, and I know what He wants for me to do in life. It ain't rocket science. Of course, I believe the scriptures are true. That is a big help in getting to know God. I don't want to sound presumptious in saying you can know God. I believe you can though. FYI, I came to faith through Mere Christianity, a book by C. S. Lewis. He uses good reason and logic to come to his conclusions. thanks


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

Scattered said:


> How is the existence of monotheistic God inevitable?


Who are you addressing this question to?



worldwideput said:


> He wants us to know Him. Why would He have created us if He didn't want to have a relationship with us. That is counterintuitive.


Some of our most fundamental knowledge about the world is counterintuitive. Wave/Particle duality is counterintuitive. Special Relativity is counterintuitive. Intuition does not equal truth.



> Anyways, my logic is not on the same level as God's but He would not make it so that I could never understand Him at all.


This sentence contradicts itself. How do you know what God would or would not do?

And yes, WWP, i am a "believer", but i'm very wary of human interpretation of God's will and thus ally myself with no world religion.

s.


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

http://www.stnews.org/rlr-2437.htm

Good article. The site is Science and Theology News.


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## Scattered (Mar 8, 2005)

I don't claim to know that God doesn't exist in some form or another. I just claim that the existence of an all-seeing, all-knowing, all-loving, BEING does not not make much sense to me. It bothers me when it is claimed that a specific God, with the above qualities exists, and that he exists because of subjective experience as well as the findings of quantum mechanics. Well I can't speak to the qualities of quantum mechanics or string theory because as far as I'm aware, its philosophy...its a theory without much to back it up. No physical tests or evidence of its exists. The mental masterbation of physicists doesn't seem like a legitimate basis for an argument about the existence of God. I believe in what I see, or what can be seen or understood. I think there are legitimate reasons to believe that there is something other than us, other than matter. I just begin to get skeptical when people start putting labels and specifying what those things are. Although you may not be a member of any religion, I think that the argument in a single entity known as God is as presumptious a concept as anything else.

That specific question was addressed to you, sebastian. How is it inevitable, as you stated in an earlier post, that God exists? If you're going to respond to that question by saying that theoretical physics undermines empiricism then I think you're making a big leap of faith. Which again in my mind is fine. But say so. Admit that the way humans come to know God is through faith.


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Wow. I cant beleive you mentioned Poincare miracles, Sebastian. Kudos to you. I sympathize with the watch in a field analogy....it makes a good point. You'll notice that things randomly coming together to form the perfect conditions for life is predicated on alot of ifs...it is very possible through coincidence, but its also possible through design. The latest theory is that the universe will *not* contract and expand infinitely, but that it is gaining velocity and will rip itself apart. This universe could in fact be a one time deal, which would weaken the idea of coincidence. Everyone in this argument is remaining so, so....._rational_. I'm impressed.

Peace
Homeskooled

PS- Also, Sebastian, if I am following you correctly, you seem to be discounting the utility of Empiricism to arrive at spiritual truth. I agree with this as a possiblity (for instance, our ability to understand an infinite being is only finite), but theologically speaking I see all that is as an expression of what its creator is, and thus the pursual of scientific truth will in the end strenghen our understanding of God, and the necessity of one. If it doesnt, then we are just as well off knowing that truth. However, physics especially seems to back itself into a theistic corner every couple of years. The Big Bang theory, which was, no pun intended, a godsend to theists. The accelerating velocity of universal expansion. Quantum physics, which frees up the universe of determinism and allows for free and unpredictable will. I'm a big fan of put-up-or-shut-up. A theist can play the game on what an atheist beleives is their ground - science. The Guy I'm defending wrote those rules.


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## Depersonalized (Feb 11, 2005)

w/oathought.voice.soul. said:


> I'm only going to address one facet of my illness for now because that's really all my brain can take. I'm obsessed with death. This affects me every minute that I'm awake. It puts a dark cloud over everything I do, or TRY to do. I don't know how to sum it up, but I am: 1) convinced that I will die in my sleep (I'm 20) 2) PARALYZED with fear over what happens after you die, i.e. the idea of eternity, and something NEVER ENDING, heaven v. hell (for various reasons, I am not a Christian. I believe it's a religion of intolerance and fear, and the demands required of a "believer" are impossible for even the most faithful to adhere to. Read Bertrand Russell for some sound reasoning...) How can a mentally ill individual be held accountable for the pain and suffering inflicted upon him or her??? Certainly, a _loving_ God would understand. Oh, and He gave me cancer two years ago and I had to drop out of college!!!...but I digress.
> 
> Back to the topic at hand. If there is no eternity, then the thought of being in complete UNawareness, darkness, not even KNOWING that you don't exist anymore is UNBEARABLE for me to comprehend. I don't know which option is worse, and the crux of it all is the fact that no one knows the truth. When you think about it, there is no point to life if we all die. Why should I go to college, (not that I'm capable of studying a chapter or writing a paper in the condition I am anyway) or set any sort of goal for myself???
> 
> ...


fear of death, life sux, I dont know why I am here, This is torture blah blah blah blah heard it a million times...

This is torture? Well everyday kids die of starvation, I believe that is torture. Look at all the stuff you got, damn you got access to the internet so I must assume you have a warm bed, food, place to live. Come up to a bum on a street and ask him what he thinks about DP.

You are afraid to die? Fear of death is groundless, you were born as a mortal being and one day you are going to die, there is nothing that can change it. You just have to accept this, I believe religion is what gives you that pointless fear.

The eternal question WHY? Well there is no answer to that, thats what thousands of philosophers tried to explain.


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## maria (Oct 28, 2004)

death horrifies me too, sometimes more, sometimes less. I don't know if you can think youre way out of it. I've tried to think that death is better than eternal suffering in life. But what if the suffering continues in the possible afterlife..that's what bothers me the most, when I let it.


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## maria (Oct 28, 2004)

> This is torture? Well everyday kids die of starvation, I believe that is torture. Look at all the stuff you got, damn you got access to the internet so I must assume you have a warm bed, food, place to live. Come up to a bum on a street and ask him what he thinks about DP.


Have you understood the nature of dp/dr? At least in my case it combined with depression simply makes it impossible to enjoy anything. I cannot praice Lord for not being born in Africa, no matter how much I'd like to, because I just can't. I'm not being ungrateful or selfish. I'm just incapable of feeling just about anything. The bum in the street may very well have gotten there because he was struck by dp which made him lose his family, job and home. So save the lecture please.


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2005)

How about a little more sensitivity given your user name Depersonalized??? If I could just snap out of it, feel love for my family, and obtain some kind of spiritual connection, you'd better believe I would. But try being a 20 year old cancer patient who now has no thyroid, taken out of college, now with no goal, no clue, no direction, just a whole bunch of fear about things which I have no control over. Add to that obsessive-compulsive disorder and a crippling depression that I've been fighting for four years (lying curled up in my bed, sobbing for hours on end), not to mention dp, and it's a pretty damn miserable life. Are you trying to say that I'm selfish?? As much as your seemingly-enlightened state has lead you to believe, I don't think that I should feel obliged to take on the rest of the world's suffering. (Or more specifically, that I should feel burdened by one child's not getting enough to eat halfway around the world). I have enough guilt as it is. If I had the ability to concentrate, communicate, articulate, just to EXPRESS myself as a human being to another human, then I would go back to school, become a psychologist, social worker, or an english teacher so that I could have a definite purpose and gain some fulfillment out of life. Unfortunately, it's a tad hard in my current position.

I have every right to question, and you have no right to belittle me for doing so.

To each his own.


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2005)

w/outathought, When people take that hard-assed attitude, they reveal their immaturity and lack of experience. 
I used to know nearly EVERYTHING, but I grew up and took a look in the mirror.


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## agentcooper (Mar 10, 2005)

beachgirl said:


> w/outathought, When people take that hard-assed attitude, they reveal their immaturity and lack of experience.
> I used to know nearly EVERYTHING, but I grew up and took a look in the mirror.


good point beachgirl!


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## Depersonalized (Feb 11, 2005)

w/oathought.voice.soul. said:


> How about a little more sensitivity given your user name Depersonalized??? If I could just snap out of it, feel love for my family, and obtain some kind of spiritual connection, you'd better believe I would. But try being a 20 year old cancer patient who now has no thyroid, taken out of college, now with no goal, no clue, no direction, just a whole bunch of fear about things which I have no control over. Add to that obsessive-compulsive disorder and a crippling depression that I've been fighting for four years (lying curled up in my bed, sobbing for hours on end), not to mention dp, and it's a pretty damn miserable life. Are you trying to say that I'm selfish?? As much as your seemingly-enlightened state has lead you to believe, I don't think that I should feel obliged to take on the rest of the world's suffering. (Or more specifically, that I should feel burdened by one child's not getting enough to eat halfway around the world). I have enough guilt as it is. If I had the ability to concentrate, communicate, articulate, just to EXPRESS myself as a human being to another human, then I would go back to school, become a psychologist, social worker, or an english teacher so that I could have a definite purpose and gain some fulfillment out of life. Unfortunately, it's a tad hard in my current position.
> 
> I have every right to question, and you have no right to belittle me for doing so.
> 
> To each his own.


Isn't this topic called. I'm kidding myself...there really is no escape. Here's why.? Because it's true


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2005)

Woah...huh?? I'm sorry but I'm completely lost at this point. I guess I thought I was making a statement but I see that my bitterness got the best of me and perhaps I ran off of the topic at hand? Could someone please explain what I said that was so wrong? I'm all worried, and feel guilty and that no one likes me now.  I didn't mean to be a biotch...I guess I was just having a bad day. Nonetheless, my comprehension ability is still pretty low, so could someone bring me up to speed on what happened with this post?? Ah....


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## agentcooper (Mar 10, 2005)

don't feel guilty! no one thinks you're a "bioch" (or how ever you put it  )...we were sticking up for you. i think depersonalized was in the wrong. i really hate it when people feel the need to make comments like that...'specially on a SUPPORT forum.

hope you're feeling a bit better, now, than you were when you started the thread...


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2005)

*beachgirl*: w/outathought, When people take that hard-assed attitude, they reveal their immaturity and lack of experience. 
I used to know nearly EVERYTHING, but I grew up and took a look in the mirror.

*agentcooper--here's what you wrote:*
beachgirl wrote: 
w/outathought, When people take that hard-assed attitude, they reveal their immaturity and lack of experience. 
I used to know nearly EVERYTHING, but I grew up and took a look in the mirror.

good point beachgirl! ??

I guess I misread and thought beachgirl was calling me out as being the immature, inexperienced, hard-***. ??

Wow, sorry for all of the confusion. I guess it's pretty apparent how DP is screwing with my ability to READ and follow simple conversations!! Stupid, stupid... :roll:

Thanks for sticking up for me guys...I'm so glad I have the support of this board, you don't even know.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2005)

w/outa - You're right, I wasn't clear! I'm not very thorough right now, my anxiety has been bad. Cheers,bg


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