# Time to pull the trigger?



## Guest (Oct 28, 2008)

Firstly,if you are suicidal then there is nothing anyone here can do for you .You are reaching out for help by typing your message so you are giving yourself a chance.Why come to a site to say goodbye to everyone who doent know you?
If you are activley suicidal then you must go to the hospital and tell them or phone them.Im sorry you are feeling so bad.

Also are you Copeful,a member who was banned from here? If not apologies.

I hope you get the help you need and feel better soon ,the right help,and the right help for this situation is not here.

Spirit.

EDIT;Im fairly cirtain this IS Copeful.


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## Robsy (Dec 3, 2007)

instead of focusing on Dp/Dr so much why dont you focus on what caused it and try solve it that way?


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## Robsy (Dec 3, 2007)

childood? mine dates back to that i think


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2008)

The point is You were banned from the forum for abusive behaviour.I tried to truce with you before as many others here did also.You said that if you ever came back you were going kick the shit outa everyone or something equally as vulgar as that.
You will have to take it up with Revelation Copeful,he has been informed,this is not my problem anymore ,i am not a mod anymore and I only ever wished you the best but I do not buy your truce rubbish one bit Copeful,we all know you to well.
You need to get proper help and stop thinking your suffering is worse than everyone elses ,because it is not.

Spirit.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2008)

Copeful I hold no grudge against you.
You are blatently trying to manipulate people though,noone here can help you if you are activley suicidal-thats a fact.And this forum can not be held responsible for your actions either.Noone here is accountable for you.
Your life is your responsibility and it is your responsibility to get the correct help.You cant blame anyone here if you choose to take your own life,that is your right and choice.

I simply said take it up with Revelation-not me-I am not kicking you because you are down by saying that ,you on the other hand are being very manipulative.
I have bounderies Copeful,you need them on this forum.

I wish you well like I said and I have no problem with you as a human being,you know your beleif systems never bothered me but abuse on this forum does bother me.Now go and get some help for this instead of coming here repeatedly and doing the same thing.

You have it in your power Copeful to get through this and do what you need to do to get better.
Spirit.


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## peachy (Feb 9, 2008)

ya know what? one love copeful. i think it's great you came back. yeah you've probably pissed every single one of us off here but since your return, it seems all you've been seeking is some kind of hope or at least somewhere to put down your thoughts. like you said, you're waving your white flag. it hurts me so much that we could turn somebody down that is hurting in the same way as us with dp. i don't care what that person has done. were all in this together. do you realize how alienating this disorder is? of course you do. now add people turning away from you and not willing to forgive. really, i think you have every right to be here because under this new name as of now because you haven't started any shit. seems like you've turned a new leaf and maybe i'm wrong but it'd be wrong to not give you a chance.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2008)

VinCi said:


> I realize people always say the standard: go to the hospital, get some medication, get strapped to a bed


And just to reasurre you ,this doesnt happen in real life.I have been in the psych ward several times-best thing I EVER did.

You are right you have three choices,get the right help,stay like this forever,or die.

It is up to you,but you sure are not going to find the answar on this forum if you really feel that desperate.

Best Wishes
Spirit.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2008)

peachyderanged said:


> ya know what? one love copeful. i think it's great you came back. yeah you've probably pissed every single one of us off here but since your return, it seems all you've been seeking is some kind of hope or at least somewhere to put down your thoughts. like you said, you're waving your white flag. it hurts me so much that we could turn somebody down that is hurting in the same way as us with dp. i don't care what that person has done. were all in this together. do you realize how alienating this disorder is? of course you do. now add people turning away from you and not willing to forgive. really, i think you have every right to be here because under this new name as of now because you haven't started any shit. seems like you've turned a new leaf and maybe i'm wrong but it'd be wrong to not give you a chance.


Trust me Peachy we have all given Copeful plenty of chances before and again I hold no grudges and Im willing allways to give him a chance but I know how it will end-how it allways ends.He came back before waving that old white flag gees that white flag must be pretty worn by now .
Sometimes instead of being all nicey nicey you have to tell poeple the truth of the situation.I am VERY worried about Copeful.Somtimes people need a shake so they go and seek proper help.Copeful needs proper help ,not us guys.
I was once doing what he is doing and it took this approach from others for ME to go and get proper help.

I only wish him well.

Spirit.


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## peachy (Feb 9, 2008)

yes i think you are the perfect person to give out the shake a person needs sometimes. that's cool that you can do that because people usually respect you for it, even if they are pissed about it or whatever. i just don't want the new copeful to be banned. if he wants to come here for help or to find hope or whatever, i still don't feel we should reject it. still, tell him what he needs to hear


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2008)

I agree,I dont like not giving people a chance but there comes a point when you see it doesnt help them at all.

Okay ,Copeful what do you hope to acheive from coming back here?
Do you think its constructive to your recovery?
Do you think you will find help here?

Besides that Revelation banned you several times,so its likley whether anyone likes it or not that you will be banned again.

I would find it easier if you stoped with all the "my suffering is worse,far worse than anyone elses" , because thats simply not true at all.Its just that some people get the right help and take action for their suffering and you are chooseing not to.
Nobody ,and I mean NOBODY is unhelpable,you just have to take responsibility for yourself first.

And also we have no problems with your beleifs,I say we because many of us openly expressed that to you,it was you who had issues with ours which is fine BUT you was very rude and abusive about how you expressed it and NO I will NOT tolerate that.

Besides that ,apart from thinking you need proper help and not this forum for your particular situation ...I see no problems with you being here personally to receive support although I think its not a good idea considering everything still,but again it is not up to us anyway.

Spirit.


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## peachy (Feb 9, 2008)

i like that you put "recovered from dp" in your signature. it makes me feel good to see that. makes it seem more feasible.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2008)

Did you not beleive me before Peachy?  No I know what you mean ,its so hard to beleive its possible when you have it.

Thats why I put it there ,just as a reminder it is possible. :wink:


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2008)

I would say this needs to be moved to "That's Life" -- If one is suicidal, one cannot get the proper help on an internet forum as mentioned in the thread. This is indeed a viable topic of discussion, but needs to be addressed elsewhere. Not in the main forum.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2008)

I,ve got nothing against discussing suicide either.

Spirit.


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

> VinCi wrote:
> I was given 2 supervised intelligence tests, (this is not bragging) and I score in the 99 percentile, with an IQ of 132 and 136, standard deviation 15.


That is wonderful but there is a difference between intelligence and wisdom.



> Spirit wrote:
> 
> I would find it easier if you stoped with all the "my suffering is worse,far worse than anyone elses" , because thats simply not true at all.Its just that some people get the right help and take action for their suffering and you are chooseing not to.
> Nobody ,and I mean NOBODY is unhelpable,you just have to take responsibility for yourself first.


This is very true. You can choose to drown in your misery until it literally takes your life. I truly hope it hasn't taken yours because you are a bright human being with a lot of potential, but again that is something you choose for yourself. You cannot say that your suffering is worse than any others, have you walked in the shoes and lived in the mind of everyone on the forum, and further more in the world? I consciously chose to put an end to my life months back because of the 24/7 non-stop mental anguish I was in as well and by some miracle woke up the next morning still breathing - but barely.

You are letting Depersonalization define who you are instead of allowing yourself to dig into and search for the issues that forced your mind to dissociate in the first place. Obviously you cannot do this on your own, you need professional help. I could not do it on my own, I needed and still need professional help. Like Spirit said, NOBODY IS UNHELPABLE. You have to come to the conclusion that you do not have the answers and open your mind to the ideas of professionals who do understand why people dissociate, and look back into your life, childhood, and pain, and ask yourself questions such as "could this have possibly been an underlying issue that could have predisposed me to dissociate, even though I never saw it?". Lay everything out on the table. Though you look into yourself and see and feel nothing, that is only because you FEEL detached. Not because you aren't anything. Life exists - you can drive 500 mph in a straight line off a cliff, or you can slow down, make a pit stop, find directions, make a U-turn, and choose the journey of life. Neither road is easy and both are possible, it's your choice.



> Dreamer* wrote:
> I would say this needs to be moved to "That's Life" -- If one is suicidal, one cannot get the proper help on an internet forum as mentioned in the thread. This is indeed a viable topic of discussion, but needs to be addressed elsewhere. Not in the main forum.


From the research done by NODID the percentage of individuals with depersonalization out of 394 showed that *67% * have considered suicide. Suicide is a serious topic. I think it needs to be discussed rather than hidden. (no offense). Even though this is just an internet forum, one small word or phrase from someone could make the difference between life and death for those who feel they have nothing left to live for.

All my best,
Kenny

I am writing this not as an argument, but because I care.


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

Sorry to be the one to say it guys but if he indeed had 60mg of Diazepam and 20mg of Oxazepam in his system like he said and on top of that drank that bottle of JD without going to the hospital, He?s probably not alive anymore.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2008)

Inzom said:


> Sorry to be the one to say it guys but if he indeed had 60mg of Diazepam and 20mg of Oxazepam in his system like he said and on top of that drank that bottle of JD without going to the hospital, He?s probably not alive anymore.


Possible, but I'd say unlikely ... I don't know. I had a very close friend who took her life. It still haunts me as it was around this time in 2004 she was planning, and I still think, "could I have intervened" and I couldn't. I saw her about 2 weeks before she died, and we had email contact wherein I planned to attend her church bell choir performance.

Discussing suicide is one thing. Threatening it is another. And especially on the main forum.

Believe me I HAVE been suicidal, down to the last detail. Really twice in my life. Once it was out of hopelessness. Another time I was seriously clinically depressed and in a state of mind that was so "different" I had little control over the thoughts.

I simply don't think threats are appropriate in the main forum. No one here can do a darned thing about them. They scare and worry people. I was interacting on a REGULAR basis with a very close friend, and in hindsight saw all of the signs (as do so many people -- I attended a support group afterwards). But she was in such a mess to be honest in her case, I personally don't think anyone could help her situation. I offered help for what I saw as difficulties she WOULDN'T discuss out of shame. But I really never saw the suicide coming.

ACH, my two cents. It's a dicey topic. But has to be handled carefully, and yet, not on the main forum -- not threats.

Very good support site: http://www.survivorsofsuicide.com I attended a 12 week support program locally. It gave me huge insight in what happened to my friend, and where others who took their lives were coming from. All of them had serious mental illness of one form or another and could no longer cope.

When my friend "went missing", I swore on my life she was in a car accident -- I called every hospital in a 100 mile radius practically. Suicide NEVER crossed my mind. NEVER in a zillion years. She never threatened it. But people who threaten it, do follow through, often.


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## Robsy (Dec 3, 2007)

copeful - all i will say is that, u might not think what happened in ur childhood is a big deal, especially if u deal with it subconsciously as a child. However anything like that, no mater if its divorce, abuse, or death can be traumatic as a child. I thought my life just bruised me too. I was wrong. You need to accept that its ok to feel hurt and upset over ur childhood no matter how big or small u think it was. Children are so succeptable to anything, as a child u put ur trust into your family 100% coz u are vulnerable and dependant. If death or separation occurs, it knocks a child like u wont believe as they dont have adult coping mechanisms.

If you are suicical, please seek to get help as we cant give u the help that u need here. I can see how much u need help so if u want to talk to me privately you can.

Robsy


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## David Kozin (Jan 11, 2005)

*Correction on the suicide quote from our research:*

"The majority of participants had considered suicide attributed to CDD (Chronic Depersonalization Disorder) (67.0%)." not that 67% had attempted suicide.

We did not investigate deeper into these questions because of a limit of questions we wanted for a test. However, other questions that would stem from this would be: rating how how often (scales of 1-7) based on frequency and duration) or if there was another event that coincided with this thought. So, this number is simply an answer to question which was essentially "Have you considered suicide because of your depersonalization disorder?"

One good note is that people almost a majority considered that during the course of their illness that their DPD had improved at least some amount during the course of the illness.

Here comes the risk of giving statistics early before the paper is published. Individuals attending the conference will get a look at the results, and can report them after the conference. (Then of course, the paper should be in print 5-8 months from now).


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

Thank you for correcting me David. My bad - I misinterpreted it. I will edit the above post.


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

Dreamer* said:


> When my friend "went missing", I swore on my life she was in a car accident -- I called every hospital in a 100 mile radius practically. Suicide NEVER crossed my mind. NEVER in a zillion years. She never threatened it. But people who threaten it, do follow through, often.


This is the harsh reality of it. Copeful may or may not be here, none of us know - possibly never will know. I appreciate and respect that Copeful was honest and in all reality he probably came here as his last resort. This is the brutality and reality of life. Let this be a wake up call to ourselves, to others, to doctors and psychiatrists who are studying depersonalization disorder. I'm sick of ignoring the topic because *67%* of those with this disorder consider suicide. Let's stop fucking around and realize something needs to be done about this. Much thanks to David, Dr. Simeon, and all others in the world who are taking the steps to make this Disorder known.

Copeful if you are here or not, wether you read this or not I do not know. You have said some very hurtful things indeed, but we are all brothers and sisters in this together and need to forgive and support each other the best we can. I forgive you for what you have said offensively towards me, and apologize if I have offended you. Know that you are loved and cared for by so many of us even if it doesn't come across that way to you. If you are still here it would be a respectable thing to let us know. And if you truly are no longer here - Rest In Peace my friend. Although you have caused some beef you will be missed by many, myself included.

Much Love,
Kenny :|


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## peachy (Feb 9, 2008)

very well said kenny


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## Robsy (Dec 3, 2007)

yeh - please can u let us know if u are ok???? xx


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2008)

Very nice words Kenny,you sound so much more together and positive these days,Im so proud of you.Everything you said there made so much sence.

I also agree with Dreamer ,60mg of valium and 20 mg of lorazapam is not enough to do any damage and cirtainly not enough to take a life.I have taken 60 mg of tamazapam before-stronger than valium with a good dose of valium on top of that ,infact it was only several monthes ago when I was feeling down.That is a reletivley small dose compared to what it does take to take a life.

I know Copeful,if I thought he couldnt have handled hearing what I said then anyone who knows me knows I wouldnt have said it.Copeful has got a strong sence of common sence and he has shown that side of himself a few times.Hes also got alot of fight in him -its not hard to see that from the intensity of some of his posts even though its largley expressed in the wrong way.Like he said hes intelligent and I dont doubt that for a minute and I know full well he can use that to help himself rather than destroy himself.I like those qualities and know he can turn this around if he wants to,if hopefully he is still around,and my instinct based on those things tells me he is.He reminds me of how I used to be and yes I was a complete nightmare and I know what helped me then and it wasnt sweet nothings and people being a pushover with me.Im not saying he isnt suicidal and im not saying he isnt in a very serious situation either and I hope he receives the help he needs.

But the sad truth is at the end of the day it that is up to the person whether or not they take their life and this isnt the first time Copeful has come on here doing this-threatening and manipulating and in my opinion that shouldnt be tolerated on a mental health forum because the forum and its members are not responsible or accountable for another persons actions and secondly there is nothing anyone can do to help apart from a professional if someone is actually activley suicidal.There are vulnerable people here feeling very hopeless and reading the suicidal threats of another person is not good for their own situation at all,its dangerous infact.

And I agree with Robsy ,I think there are things possibley from Copefuls past that he thinks havnt effected him as much as they have.Because the very nature of dissociation is infact to hide these things from ourselves.

Copeful if you are reading any of this and I hope you are,noone here is angry with you-we hold no grudges at all,we just want you to get the right help .Hopefully thats what youve done.I know you have the common sence and rationality to do that,you are smart.
Manipulating isnt and wasnt the right way to get that help because we cant help you ,but yes I did that in the past also and learned that for myself so im not judgeing you,but we are here to listen and advise if you need it,if you are still alive and if you choose to do that.I hope you are.

Spirit.


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2008)

Cloverstone said:


> Lastly you are obviously in a very low place and I think it's *very* poor judgement of *anyone* to kick you when you are down so to speak.


If you have an issue with anything I said Erin ,please PM me about it.I trust my judgements ,OK.And I dont think anyone kicked anyone when they were down ,as it says in the thread.

Spirit.


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2008)

And I still say we need a suicide sticky as I said before and I was told it was being worked on when infact I later found out that was a lie.

Spirit.
Can noone handle some honestly around here.


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2008)

Correct I dont want to hijack anybodys thread which was WHY I suggested PM,ing and I dont beleive I am hijacking the topic at all Erin ,as my post relates to the topic of suicide ,and whether or not it should be discussed has been mentioned plenty by others throughout this thread.

But since you have asked, "even though you dont want to go off topic",I will be polite and have the courtisy to answar you about this.
I discovered that the idea was not favoured,thats all I will say because I will never break trust,even though I received a PM saying it was being worked on -meaning it was decided it was a good idea.BUT this is irrelavent anyway.My point is I think we still need one and my opinion of that was strengthened by this thread-which is STILL on topic.

And since you seem to know that Copeful is still around which im very happy about,I still trust my judgement and thats still on topic also.

Spirit.


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## Revelation_old (Aug 9, 2004)

#1. Copeful is welcome back.
#2. This forum is not to help people with suicidal thoughts. In most cases, this entire thread would be deleted but I'm leaving it up for Copeful's sake.
#3. The sticky is not being worked on at the moment. It's a thought in the very back of my mind. I'm not comfortable discussing, moderating or maintaining a site about that discusses Suicide. That's MY choice.
#4. NO ONE here has the proper credentials to deal with someone suffering that badly. 
#5. If someone continually posts threads about suicide, they will be removed from the community. Indefinitely.
#6. I truly do not care what people think of my decision on this and I'm not open to discussing it.


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

Spirit said:


> ,60mg of valium and 20 mg of lorazapam is not enough to do any damage and cirtainly not enough to take a life.


It was 20mg of Oxazepam not Lorazepam, 20mg Oxazepam is like one big pill of the sort. So that would make it 6x biggest Valium (10mg) and 1xbiggest Sobril (Oxazepam) and while i might have been mistaken about this being lethal it most certainly could do some damage combined with strong alcohol. Just saying you shouldnt say benzo?s cant do damage 

Hugs, Chris.


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2008)

Oh ok chris apologies then ,my mistake,thanks for pointing that out.Yes they can do damage I didnt mean to say they cant do any damage.I am reluctant to put how much valium etc it would take to take somones life here but it is much higher than that,unless the person has respitory problems already then thats another matter.

Revelation yes thats your choice,thankyou for letting us know that ,that was my only quarm.I like straight clear cut answars,simple.

Spirit.


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

Inzom said:


> Spirit said:
> 
> 
> > ,60mg of valium and 20 mg of lorazapam is not enough to do any damage and cirtainly not enough to take a life.
> ...


60 mg of valium and 20 mg of oxazepam isn't so much the concern. The concern was that statement that he bought a gun and drank a BOTTLE of Jack Daniels. If he truly took the above mentioned and drank a fifth of Jack (1/5th of a gallon 40% alcohol by volum) on top of the pills he would be lucky to be alive.


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2008)

surfingisfun001 said:


> 60 mg of valium and 20 mg of oxazepam isn't so much the concern. The concern was that statement that he bought a gun and drank a BOTTLE of Jack Daniels. If he truly took the above mentioned and drank a fifth of Jack (1/5th of a gallon 40% alcohol by volum) on top of the pills he would be lucky to be alive.


Yes and trully amazing that he still managed to type those posts considering that Kenny....Almost unbeleivable.


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

edit


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

Ah I do now see that Copeful is still here. Good for you Copeful. Hope you realized through this that you are cared for.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2008)

VinCi said:


> .
> The people who DO recover are the ones who are experiencing a "acute-short-term" "shock" not this, not at all.
> Even those who have had long term anxiety disorders and recovered are the ones that have been able to keep jobs, walk outside the house( I can't , not even half a second)


Oh not this again.Do you not realise how insulting that is Copeful/Vinci..? ITS NOT TRUE.I know its hard to beleive ok ,that anyone could be feeling what youre feeling and recover-that you think there must have something differant or worse wrong with you,but you are very very wrong.There are people here including myself who have attempted suicide not just talked about it-thats desperate.Stop feeling sorry for yourself,dig deep into your self and find the courage and strength to help yourself ,the same way I did,and the same way others here do also.Yes its hell but ,YOU CAN DO IT ,if you want to.And im sure youll get support from others here as well to do that.

And that is my final word to you,im sorry I wish you well but I cant talk to you Vinci for your/my own/ everyone elses sake _at the moment _,you madden me so its best we avoid eachother,_at least for now._And thats not necarsarily a relection on yourself,just that I need to avoid it at the moment for for my own sake also.

Good luck.
Spirit.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2008)

Ok one last thing,more of a remindar....A while back when I desribed my experience of dr/dp to you ,you said to me "You are probably the only one who had it as severe as me"....fact is so do othes still.
Again im telling you to try and help you but you can get better Vinci and I hope you do.I know you arent meaning to be obnoxiously prideful with your comments and that it is just your hopless thinking at the moment and that you cant help that.

Now last time ,your suffering is no worse than anyone elses here has been.

Take care
Spirit.


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

I do believe there are different levels of suffering, I believe I have suffered more than other people, but also that others have suffered more so than myself. Each person is unique and that is what makes their suffering unique. Thank you for letting us know that you are still here. The reason your suffering is so severe is because you are not taking the proper steps to get help and deal with it. You are letting yourself drown in it and by doing that for so long - yes I truly believe that makes a person's suffering more severe.

You must acknowledge that you are making these choices though. You can make choices to will allow you to swim back to the surface of the water or you can make choices that will keep you drowing, deeper, and deeper, and deeper, which appears to be where you are at. Don't give up on yourself. A lot of people on this site think it is impossible to recover because they have drowned so deep and can no longer see the light at the surface. That is bullshit though. That doesn't mean there is no light at the surface. This is more of an analogy, but I think you get what I'm saying.

I don't know your entire story in detail and that is why I don't judge you (and if I have, I apologize). I don't believe you know my story in detail either. I am going to send you a PM. Read it if you want, if you don't - that's fine.

From someone that cares,
Kenny


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2008)

surfingisfun001 said:


> The reason your suffering is so severe is because you are not taking the proper steps to get help and deal with it. You are letting yourself drown in it and by doing that for so long - yes I truly believe that makes a person's suffering more severe.
> 
> You must acknowledge that you are making these choices though. You can make choices to will allow you to swim back to the surface of the water or you can make choices that will keep you drowing, deeper, and deeper, and deeper, which appears to be where you are at.


AMEN.

But I,d be a hypocrite if I didnt admit I did exaxtly the same and thats why it frustrates me so much to see someone else doing it and thats why somone eventually took the tough line with me like I have with Vinci.Thats why I try and stress to people to get help,thats the only reason I came back here in the first place.I dont care if I look like a bitch or get hated for what I say,thats not whats important,i could live with that ,what I cant live with is seeing someone suffering and throwing their life away or worse-killing themselves when I KNOW they can get better.

...sighs...

Vinci I just wanna pull you out of the darkness and wake you up a bit,and im frustrated that I cant damn it because im very stubborn and never give up :wink: lol.I never mean any harm...I wont ignore you ,Ill work on it because I cant give up on you.
I once took this same old worn out approach with Kenny ya know .. :roll:  ...we fell out big style...but we worked it out and now we are very good friends.Kenny thought only drugs could save him,he was in a bad state, but now look at him ,he got off the drugs,hes having councilling and god hes so much better.It is possible Vinci,I swear it to you on my life with the right action plan,attitude and choices ,its so possible no matter how bad youre suffering.Sure youve got yourself in a rut,youre stuck in a dark black hole ,but we will get you out of this if you can help yourself a bit to,I dont wanna hear you cant do it ,i know its in you somewhere to fight it.

Spirit.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2008)

yeah, we all feel that our problems are unique, that no one would be able to understand no mater how you explained it, I've been guilty of wishing certain people could feel what I feel, even just for a few minutes. I want that because I feel like I'm just going on about it all the time, I feel they would understand me more.
I'll exaggerate to make a point, if your arm was on fire you would attempt to describe how it felt, I would have some idea but unless my arm was on fire as well I could only try to empathize with you.

I guess the point is people may not understand but they care.

I have to be honest with you copeful, when I first saw this post I thought "what's he up to now?" You got my PM right!


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## Socrates_macabre (Sep 22, 2008)

Hey, vinci I think you might like this book.

Its called Grendel and its by John Gardner, reading usually helps my anxiety go down.


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