# For those with open minds.



## Makuren (Sep 15, 2007)

Read this and share feedback. When I found it I could not stop reading. Those with a spiritual background may find this enlightening or a pleasure to read.

http://www.nde-paradigm.com/34.html


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2008)

Looks cool; I'll check it out.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Hmm I must have missed something. I'm sure I wrote some super profound stuff in this thread that the world will sorely miss....probably not 

Anyway, yeah that site is cool and I agree with most of what it says.


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## Anla (May 1, 2007)

Jesus's message: Love God with your heart, mind, and soul. Love your neighbor, as you love yourself.

Within these precepts, we share ourselves, our abilities, with the world.

And we stay here until our body does not hold us. Then we return to God.

Anla


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2008)

Seeing as this is the debate spirituality forum... I'd just like to say I disagree with Jesus.


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## Anla (May 1, 2007)

Do you disagree with all he says there? Or what part of it do you disagree with?

Anla


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2008)

I disagree with him fully due to him never existing... :roll:

(Hammer time)... best to walk away.... *Walks away*.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Anla said:


> Jesus's message: Love God with your heart, mind, and soul. Love your neighbor, as you love yourself.
> 
> Within these precepts, we share ourselves, our abilities, with the world.
> 
> ...


I love this post for its simplicity. In theory I believe in loving my neighbour. In practise I find it hard to love people who hurt me. Thanks for writing this though because no matter how many times those words "love thy neighbour" are written or said, there are always many more layers to peel of ....more ways of practising it.

In theory, loving my neighbour means loving all. My neighbour could be a psychopath, or a murderer, a child-rapist, a militant, or just someone who gossips about me. Do I love those people? No....not yet let's be honest about it. I don't like people who hate me, in the case of gossip. I don't love child-rapists. I probably hate those the most out of that list.

As for murderers....phew...it's heavy.

Psychopaths I have a little sympathy for. I've been mulling that one over for a few years. The only difference is that I don't know any psychopaths. So i can forgive them from a distance because they may have been born with a brain that couldn't love. But that they can mutilate people's bodies or drug people, take them hostage, etc....is hard to forgive. In theory, I forgive because I know that they cannot ever supress the love of God. The darkness is never stronger than the light.

But those things do happen, and in negative situations I tend to run. I even feel a bit angry from time to time, if someone's really disempowering me. But generally I try to love to the extent that I try to push back the limit of that love a little bit further each day. Which is also very hard for me to do when I consider what love is in the fullest sense of the word. Equal rights, equal love, equal space, equal happiness, equal voice, equal belonging in this Life.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2008)

I can't find love for people that pick their nose at the traffic lights.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2008)

Im still the same person said:


> I can't find love for people that pick their nose at the traffic lights.


Be @ peace with them... as they seek the truth... *picks nose*... lol.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Im still the same person said:


> I can't find love for people that pick their nose at the traffic lights.


Guilty


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## Makuren (Sep 15, 2007)

Simply amazing. The more I read the more I see how this does in fact relate. -scratches head- I'll send my thoughts to you all in a proper paragraph in due time. its late, can't stop listening to music doi.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Makuren said:


> Read this and share feedback. When I found it I could not stop reading. Those with a spiritual background may find this enlightening or a pleasure to read.
> 
> http://www.nde-paradigm.com/34.html


Hi, 
Thanks for posting this...finally got round to reading it! A lot of those things make sense of how things are. The bit about knowing the effects of one's actions from the experience of others is a bit scary. But the way it says that this isn't the primary field of experience is easier for me to understand, due to meditation experiences where I've felt myself to be essence, and the way that healing seems to just open up the body to the true essence. So that is easy to believe as a reality. And as such makes it easier to believe in Mother/Father God...

Have you read Mother Julian of Norwich? She had some insights into "sin" and also about how everything is contained in Goddess. That seems to be the common mystical teaching, that everything is already existing in this beautiful bubble of pure consciousness, but as we are so identified with our bodies, we fail to notice that non-duality essence which pervades all things.

There is one thing on here which does NOT make sense however...and this I've been wondering about lately.

If am an essence and when I die I go back to being essence, why did I need to grow down on earth? Even to self-realise? If it is the reality, underneath all the negative emotions and thoughts....what has been gained by coming into existance in this plane?

It is clear that the world was designed to be how it is and that it is "unwinnable" on the level of form, that sin is an inevitable part of being a human person, if only because you need somewhere to sleep and to be able to eat. These are reasons enough to take from other people.

So it says "don't save the world" yet keep on the path, or live the Way.

But why is there that Way?

It benefits people in this life, but if that isn't the primary field of experience, for instance, if they can transcend suffering, at least at the end of life......(and I'm not justifying hurting people btw).....why do we actually need to grow? Surely growth is something which is measured in earth terms, even if it involves spiritual realisation. It is still on earth. And whether we have realisations is surely related with things we cannot change, like the kind of body we were born into. For instance, rationalist or artistic? I know those can be balanced by it looks like there is at least some bias and therefore people cannot help being who they are.

I suppose this is where Free Will comes into it. I do believe in Free Will. Suppose that the test of how well you used it was how much you grew with what you got. That would give people with easier lives potentially less advantage, than those who experience hardship early and learn the necessity of letting go of attachments at an early stage.

I don't mean to thwart the thread, but this is the primary question I am interested in myself. I fully believe in enlightenment/self-realisation/heaven on earth....but if the primary field of reality is Essence, or the Holy Spirit, the womb of Goddess.....why do we need to realise it? Surely we'd get there in the end?

Sorry to ask. I would seriously like answers to this, although it probably is just my intellect looking for answers. Inside I am aware this life is about growth, but have no way of understanding why it is necessary.


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## Anla (May 1, 2007)

God creates our spirits. Our spirits choose to come to Earth on a mission. When our mission is done, our body dies, and we return to God.

Unless our mission is prematurely cut short by our body being killed...

Anla


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Isn't being killed part of the pattern of life?


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

But what is the point in having a mission in life? What difference does it make if our mission is a success or failure?

Even if you believe in this it still all boils down to the question: what is the point in life? and we are still no nearer any answer if we believe in spirits, god etc


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

....I agree that we are no nearer to the point.

Wanting a point is such a duality based concept. I fell asleep in yoga/meditation on monday and literally lost a moment of time as I lay there. When I woke up, I was like...oh gosh I'm at yoga! How did I get here?!

It convinced me that when I die, and lose consciousness, that there will be no pain in passing over, but that I'll just cease to be. So if I'll just cease to be, or my spirit is back in the light of non-suffering....perhaps there's no spiritual purpose in doing good, although it helps me know spirit while I'm down on earth.

The conclusion I'm starting to come to is that doing good, or living in spirit, is like a "duty" of spiritual life. If you accept it....there is no explanation for why. And if you don't, you'll suffer more but that's ok as well.

????


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## Anla (May 1, 2007)

The spirit chooses to fulfill the mission as a way to show the love that the Creator is giving to the spirit. Giving out the love.

God, let me shine like the moon. Like a reflection of you...

Anla


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2008)

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## Makuren (Sep 15, 2007)

If you go through the extra inserts, such as the examples of each paradigm "rule" you can read stories from people as well as the author who created the webpage.

Indeed it would be much simpler to be just 'one" with our "god" instead of being sent to this planet and deal with this mission of ours. There is no absolute reason to "why" our spirits require us to accomplish this because we will never know the answer. Most likely however in my opinion this mission is probably so that we understand ourselves and as spirit said "return to our center" our essense of being who we are. Perhapes we all young spirtual creations who still need to understand one's "center". Interesting thoughts, love thinking about it though dwelling on them makes me go insane (probably the reason I was diagnosed with GAD). So I look at it as a fun recreational activity then a plague of my mind. Changing my perspective on it changed my emotions toward it, so i'm less anxious then I used to be hehe.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Dear Makuren, 
I understand how the rise in energy one gets from considering life can cause anxiety. I was just reading about spacetime earlier today, and "worldline" graphs which map events in space time.....it's pretty crazy shit when you consider that we are all just little spacetime distortions going about our lives, drawing things to us without even realising it. But if one can stand the realisations, and integrate it into a philosophy of ethics.....I think it is a beautiful thing. The hard thing is just having the confidence to say "I think whatever is going on is a miracle". As Spirit said in another post, we normalise life, as well as creating categories of good and bad, and what should and shouldn't happen.

Hm. I admit that I think there is a dead end in the analysis of NDE. As I sort of indicated above, I find it hard to understand why, if we are spirit, that in a sense, anything is "necessary". Of course, people would suffer but if they realised they were spirit, it would make it at least a little easier to heal, as the purpose would have moved from acruing assets and wealth to just giving to and loving life as it is.

Given this paradox, I agree it is good to drop the sticks at some point and just give up. And what could be more beautiful than surrendering the mystery of life? The reason I don't do it more is because I feel it could make me look "stupid"...or it could MAKE me stupid....but in reality it would be great just to say....yeah, life is a mystery and that is a beautiful thing, yet another sign of the omnipotence of the Creator.


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## Makuren (Sep 15, 2007)

Your right Rozanne, the deeper science has come to understand reality, the more we realize that we're actually in a deeper mystery. Diving into the mystery headfirst is to dive into the lap of the "Creator". Which is a good thing, at times.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Rozanne said:


> There is one thing on here which does NOT make sense however...and this I've been wondering about lately.
> 
> If am an essence and when I die I go back to being essence, why did I need to grow down on earth? Even to self-realise? If it is the reality, underneath all the negative emotions and thoughts....what has been gained by coming into existance in this plane?


All energy grows and learns. Its primary intent is to *understand itself*. When energy exists in the "higher" realms (e.g. astral) it exists only as "bubbles". Each bubble contains the entirety of an issue, situation, idea. Of course, they are also all interconnected.

But how are those "bubbles" created? They are created by personal experience in the physical realm. Thousands of lifetimes are spent experiencing each idea subjectively, which builds up a "library" of experiences. That energy understands itself better each time.

All of our energy is learning and growing. We are learning about our own energy and how to use it. We are learning how to transform energy, to create with energy. This happens on many different levels from the completely unconscious use of creational force to very consciously creating specific outcomes by harnessing the power of our own intent.

When our energy has learned all it needs to in the physical plane, it will begin learning in higher dimensions.

Not only that, but "living" in a timeless, spaceless dimension where everything exists all at once and everything is already known sort of loses its charm. Much more FUN to be down here in the mud experiencing everything first hand. Having the opportunity to breath, feel, laugh and cry. To be alive 

That's a very 3D centric and rational explanation, but again its just a metaphor.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Makuren said:


> Your right Rozanne, the deeper science has come to understand reality, the more we realize that we're actually in a deeper mystery. Diving into the mystery headfirst is to dive into the lap of the "Creator". Which is a good thing, at times.


Yep, because the further in you go, the bigger it gets. The universe is fractal and it telescopes out as well as microscopes in. Basically, whatever you focus on expands. Yet the addage "as above, so below" is relevant here, because each "level" reflects those above and below it. So no matter where you look, you'll be able to learn whatever you want about the universe.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

So the energy of the universe is trying to understand itself, that makes sense but that still doesn't explain the point of it, what is the point in the universe trying to understand itself? what is the purpose of the universe becoming more conscious? that theory may explain the way the universe is heading and its direction but it still doesn't explain the point of it all.

All the NDE stuff is very interesting though. Hopefully what will come of it is that scientists will come to view consciousness is not being specifically located in the brain, although hard to actually prove if enough people have similar experiences hopefully it will turn a few heads and create more scientific interest.


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## Makuren (Sep 15, 2007)

Pablo,

That is exactly my point. Science has been looking at the physical level of our bodies. When in fact our bodies have dimensions which its made up of. The cell dimension, molecular dimension, energy dimension. If our energy is not balanced it affects the vibrations and energy of the cells which in turn imposes on the cells to replicate differently or mutate to the disturbance of the energy field and then its seen in our physical form, from distress to disorders to cancer. I am not saying that 100% of human ailments come from the self however. Environmental factors do it as well.

The NDE experience has changed people's lives instantly for the better. Psychologist have been trying to do it for years. I think its an important field of study because it may lead to answers. With every answer we get closer to finding the truth. However each answer science finds creates another problem. I'm damn sure if we kept doing this problem/answer/problem/answer path we'll end up to a point that they cannot explain the cause physically. (perhapes anyway)


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

If only more people were able to objectively analyse the relative virtues of science and mysticism without predjudice, the world would be a better place!


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

The problem is that the scientist will say that the NDE is just imagination or hallucination despite what the experiencer describes. I think there will have to be collected thousands of cases where the person experiences something which scientists describe as impossible before they really get convinced that conscioussness is not solely in the brain, many of the NDE's are just about white light or feeling peaceful which can easily be rationally explained by chemical releases. But there are some which I read about which cant be rationally explained like a woman who left her body and went above the hospital she was in, then when she came back into her body she could describe details of the hospital roof to the doctors.

Another issue is that a lot of the NDE's are culture bound so only in Christian cultures do people have Christian based NDE's and in Buddhist countries they have Buddhist NDE's, so that suggests that many people are still not free from their cultural influences and brainwashing when having them which reduces their credibility a bit, but maybe that is just an issue of the brain trying to make sense of what they have experienced.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2008)

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## Makuren (Sep 15, 2007)

Many NDE experiences were cultural bound and the explaination they gave was that the other "dimension" would not make sense to the spirit if the beings in that dimension were not speaking based on their prior beliefs. They would not understand the point comming across.

It's like a christian having an NDE experience and seeing waves of light using telepathy to chat. Anything that would be told by them would be confusing and doubtful thus it needs to be explained in a context that one understands.

Here is a site of NDE experiencers.

http://www.near-death.com/forum.html

As you read more and more you see trends but they're all cultural bound!


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2008)

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## Guest (Jan 24, 2008)

Makuren said:


> Many NDE experiences were cultural bound and the explaination they gave was that the other "dimension" would not make sense to the spirit if the beings in that dimension were not speaking based on their prior beliefs. They would not understand the point comming across
> 
> Here is a site of NDE experiencers.
> 
> ...


What bothers me about saying that the near death experiences are less validable because they are culturaly based is this.--->We all experience LIFE as differant , one persons experience of life is never the same as anothers experience of it yet that doesnt make it less valid than any others experience of it does it? So just because we also experience death differantly depending upon who we are and our experience it doesnt make it any less validable than anyone elses experience of death.

Spirit.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Know what you mean about channelling....I can never remember writing stuff either, really scary.

I need to surrender more. Thanks for reminding me Spirit. I need to surrender all my crap. I like to call God the Great Mother because I see us as living in the womb of existance - it surrounds us and it is us. Like the baby is both separate in DNA and yet part of the mother-baby unit, that is how I see the Great Mother. And also Buddha.

But I don't surrender enough of my life, really. If I did it would be so much easier. Let everything of personal will and decisions go to death, all the questioning, all the past mistakes. I wish to surrender that to the Great Mother....because only she has the answers.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2008)

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## Guest (Jan 25, 2008)

http://bihaet.ytmnd.com


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

The thing is that you can't try to surrender in any shape or form, it isn't your choice to surrender it just has to happen. Surrender is another form of letting go but you cant try to let go as that is a contradiction in terms, I think all you can do is try to get into the right surroundings where surrender and letting go is a possibility, so it comes down to your emotional needs being met and then doing meditation just amplifies the principle that trying to let go doesn't work. Well that is my experience anyway and I think that is why Zen Buddhism uses Koans because all the trying, wish and effort is actually a hinderance to surrender.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

I agree, but then again, the Koan shows that people do things actively to get them to that place. So confusing the brain with a double-bind might be what it needs in order to give up. Paradoxes.

Eckhart Tolle says he thought "I can't live with myself anymore....does that mean there are two of me? If so which part is my true self?"


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Erkhart Tolle is a good example of how hard it is to surrender because his "enlightenment" came more or less by accident because he had to go to a point of maximum despair of extreme depression and anxiety before he was really able to surrender, so there isn't that much we can learn by following in his footsteps unless we want to self induce a breakdown, apart from sincerely asking the question "who am I?", but maybe that is all there is to it and that is all we need to do, maybe that question eventually creates a pardadox which results in surrender?


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

My mind feels it's breaking down since I read a bit about spacetime the other day...did I write a little about that already. Basically, time isn't constant. And matter is empty. And we are in a universe of which we don't know the limites....therefore I ask you: if time isn't constant, if matter is empty and form unreliable, and we don't even know where we are in this massive expanse....what the f are we doing....and why does any have any sense of knowing anything?


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Pablo said:


> maybe that question eventually creates a pardadox which results in surrender?


Enjoying the Tao te Ching:

He who attends daily to learning increases in learning. He who practices Dao daily diminishes. Again and again he humbles himself. Thus he attains to non-doing (wu wei). He practices non-doing and yet there is nothing left undone.

To command the empire one must not employ craft. If one uses craft he is not fit to command the empire.


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## Guest (Feb 6, 2008)

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