# Almost everyone on here suffers from narcissistic abuse



## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

It's true
Fearless has been 100% right about everything
It's fucking horrible and most of my mental toxicities stem from a place of pure oppression 
I have no foundation, no sense of self, and all I do is disassociate from these problems because my "parents" never taught me how to love myself

It's malevolent. When people read this they may not understand how badly narcissim fucks you up, because it messes you up REAL BAD and you're probably still disassociated and in fear.

It stunts your psychological growth, inhibits you from loving anyone, you feel like an empty vessel, causes codependency, etc. This is why when you have DP it's like a warning sign to see past the facade.

Time to go see a therapist


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## eddy1886 (Oct 11, 2012)

Will someone please explain Narcism in laymans terms!

Thanks!


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

IMHO, you cannot generalize about anyone on the board here. You really don't know this.

We're back to making gross generalizations.

One thing I'm learning more and more is the complexity of how we each become who we are, and why we have one struggle or another, etc.

Life is not as simple as A + B = C

It is a massive calculatiion we cannot even fathom.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

*Dreamer* said:


> IMHO, you cannot generalize about anyone on the board here. You really don't know this.
> 
> We're back to making gross generalizations.
> One thing I'm learning more and more is the complexity of how we each become who we are, and why we have one struggle or another, etc.
> ...


"You really don't know this"
You're making the same generalization, in which case, this statement is equally dismissive from anyone else's perspective.

Please spare me your bullshit. If you don't agree, don't come to this thread. It wasn't posted in the debate topic.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

Andrea44 said:


> What the hell does that even mean. Non applicable


You should probably look into it


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

Andrea44 said:


> I looked it up and it seems like a bunch of hogwash and is even listed as a questionable diagnosis (possibly a fallacy). MY parents were not narcissists. Good god, just because you had a crap childhood do not assume everyone else has had one too as the reason they have DP.


Lol right. But meanwhile you suffer from a mental disorder? Where's the learned self-sufficiency here? Weren't your parents suppose to teach you that?

Grow up.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

Andrea44 said:


> They did. Mental illness knows no discrimination. You can have an ideal upbringing and still be as crazy as a loon.
> 
> This website should be renamed *blame the victim and their parents*


LOL how do you claim to know anything about mental illness when most of the time you sound like you're talking out of your ass? It sounds like you don't know anything pain or self-sufficiency if you are constantly seeking help. Again, grow up. Try to build a foundation for yourself and then you can sway all the knowledge you'd like. Until then, you're still a victim.


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## Guest (May 30, 2014)

Narcissistic abuse just means we had parents that ignored our emotions, because narcissists are self-absorbed.

My mom grew up in foster care and was very strict, very private, very critical of me and my sis. She was also very physically ill so I had to support her a lot myself.

My dad worked constantly and a lot of my time spent with him was at his job visiting. He made sure everyone know he was working hard for us, and at times it was pure guilt tripping.

I was isolated a lot and wasn't allowed to hang out with the few friends I had.

To me it's not about blaming anyone, but rather, narcissistic abuse is the source of feelings of inferiority and worthlessness. It's helpful to know that what we think is wrong with us originated as a self-defeating habit responding to our environment.


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## deckeromega12345 (Feb 23, 2014)

For me it wasn't narcissism, it was parental absence. My dad wasn't really there much for the first 10 years of my life and the majority of the time that he was, he was usually an asshole. Then cut over to my mom she has epilepsy and a learning disorder so it's like I'm the parent in our relationship. My dad was definitely not narcissistic but he just didn't know how to raise a child. I think everyone gets it from different things, but the majority of cases are more than likely from drug use, or bad up bringing. This is not a factual statement but what I've read from a lot of members on this sight.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

seafoam neon said:


> Narcissistic abuse just means we had parents that ignored our emotions, because narcissists are self-absorbed.
> 
> My mom grew up in foster care and was very strict, very private, very critical of me and my sis. She was also very physically ill so I had to support her a lot myself.
> My dad worked constantly and a lot of my time spent with him was at his job visiting. He made sure everyone know he was working hard for us, and at times it was pure guilt tripping.
> ...


I hope everyone reads this as many times as they can until they can realize how this may apply to them on so many levels. Narcisstic abuse destroys your psychological development. You have no core, no foundation, no sense of being. You can't love anyone


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

Controlled Chaos said:


> For me it wasn't narcissism, it was parental absence. My dad wasn't really there much for the first 10 years of my life and the majority of the time that he was, he was usually an asshole. Then cut over to my mom she has epilepsy and a learning disorder so it's like I'm the parent in our relationship. My dad was definitely not narcissistic but he just didn't know how to raise a child. I think everyone gets it from different things, but the majority of cases are more than likely from drug use, or bad up bringing. This is not a factual statement but what I've read from a lot of members on this sight.


This can still be classified as a form of narcissistic abuse. Especially from your father.
I don't get why people aren't enraged by this.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

Andrea44 said:


> Stupid American


I'm not a full blooded American LOL
and I'd rather be a stupid american than a self-loathing victim.


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## deckeromega12345 (Feb 23, 2014)

Andrea44 said:


> No you are a full blooded yank! the ignorance comes through in the writing. Very obvious.


Don't stoop down to being racist now come on.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

Andrea44 said:


> No you are a full blooded yank! the ignorance comes through in the writing. Very obvious.


I'm actually a full blooded European
so


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## Guest (May 30, 2014)

Jurgen said:


> This can still be classified as a form of narcissistic abuse. Especially from your father.
> I don't get why people aren't enraged by this.


I think people just don't like the stigma attached to the word "abuse". People normally view abuse as physical, sexual, or verbal. IMO narcissistic abuse is all about denying emotions and needs. That's why children of the self-absorbed don't think they've been abused because they have to deny their pain so much to cope until it all crashes down.


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## deckeromega12345 (Feb 23, 2014)

Jurgen said:


> This can still be classified as a form of narcissistic abuse. Especially from your father.
> I don't get why people aren't enraged by this.


I truly did not know this, but I have been very resentful towards my dad because of how I was raised. Now, he's trying to be an amazing father and thinks just because he's being nicer now it makes up for all the shitty years. He constantly guilt trips my mom and I as well. He gets angry and blows up and yells and then after he calms down its all I'm sorry you know I love you and I wouldn't try and do anything to hurt you, and then makes dinner or some stupid shit. I let him say his bull shit apologies and ignore them.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

seafoam neon said:


> I think people just don't like the stigma attached to the word "abuse". People normally view abuse as physical, sexual, or verbal. IMO narcissistic abuse is all about denying emotions and needs. That's why children of the self-absorbed don't think they've been abused because they have to deny their pain so much to cope until it all crashes down.


Yup.
I used to brood over existential angst and silly philosophical dillemas as a way to cope with my emotions of inferiority and helplessness. Come to discover, they weren't the real issue at all. I've mastered all metaphysical philosophy as a way to disassociate and neglect my pain. How pathetic. AND on top of that I'm seriously controlling and codependent as an inward manifestation of this kind of abuse.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

Controlled Chaos said:


> I truly did not know this, but I have been very resentful towards my dad because of how I was raised. Now, he's trying to be an amazing father and thinks just because he's being nicer now it makes up for all the shitty years. He constantly guilt trips my mom and I as well. He gets angry and blows up and yells and then after he calms down its all I'm sorry you know I love you and I wouldn't try and do anything to hurt you, and then makes dinner or some stupid shit. I let him say his bull shit apologies and ignore them.


I admitted to my parents for the first time yesterday that I was in deep pain and I needed to see someone. In this moment my mother opened her heart to me for solace and I felt so ashamed and almost froze over on the inside, like I didn't want her help. It was such a resentful response from me. I felt so disgusted by her offer it made me recognize how much resent I had been harboring in my heart for not only my mother but all human beings as a result of her own self-absorption.


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## deckeromega12345 (Feb 23, 2014)

Jurgen said:


> I admitted to my parents for the first time yesterday that I was in deep pain and I needed to see someone. In this moment my mother opened her heart to me for solace and I felt so ashamed and almost froze over on the inside, like I didn't want her help. It was such a resentful response from me. I felt so disgusted by her offer it made me recognize how much resent I had been harboring in my heart for not only my mother but all human beings as a result of her own self-absorption.


I've tried this and my mom just isn't able to understand and my dads whole take is it's probably not depersonalisation you just think it is but it isn't. If I do try and argue my case then that's when I'm told to shut up because I'm wrong.


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## Guest (May 30, 2014)

Jurgen said:


> Yup.
> I used to brood over existential angst and silly philosophical dillemas as a way to cope with my emotions of inferiority and helplessness. Come to discover, they weren't the real issue at all. I've mastered all metaphysical philosophy as a way to disassociate and neglect my pain. How pathetic. AND on top of that I'm seriously controlling and codependent as an inward manifestation of this kind of abuse.


Yeah, it's pure torture. We like to "create" problems for ourselves to solve because at least those our things within our control. When it's time to face real life (such as achieving our goals/dreams) we feel way too helpless. I don't mean to generalize either, but I've definitely gone through that myself.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

My DP was caused by an existential crisis 
All of my boundaries had dissolved, I experienced an ego distortion, no sense of boundaries or any trace of whatever "self" I might've had 
That same "self" is suppose to be your guiding factor for recovery here, all of that which is essentially you
These experiences typically manifest as symptoms as there is no underlying foundation, no core. 
Because of this the same person who experiences these problems cannot trust themselves 
There are massive panic attacks involved, anxiety, disassociation, stemming for an inability to cope because these mechanisms ultimately have been self-defeating.

I don't care what you have to say about this either


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## Pyrite (Mar 25, 2014)

Andrea44 said:


> This reminds me of the refrigerator mother false hypothesis when it came to children and autism. The parents, especially the mothers were blamed for their childrens autism as they were thought to have caused it by treating their child coldly and providing no love.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerator_mother_theory
> 
> The fact as that neither autism nor dp is caused by lack of love. DP is largely unknown and probably a malformation in ones brain if anything than strictly an upbringing problem. OP stop blaming your parents for everything and accept that your DP has no explained cause.


Sooooooooo, we shouldn't try anything then?

The argument that something isn't a cause because their is not 100% conclusive evidence grows old.

There isn't even any conclusive evidence that this is a malformation of the brain, so your just as guilty of making assumptions and trying to apply them to everyone, which is what you started posting on here to complain about!

Also, wonderful racist remark there.


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## Guest (May 30, 2014)

One thing to make clear - Harris Harrington, which a lot of Fearless' blog is based on, didn't specifically say DP is caused by narcissistic abuse. This was just one point Fearless found specifically important.

Harris Harrington said DP is caused by accumulated stress polluting the nervous system combined with poor emotional regulation (based on the predisposition to DP being disorganized attachment). Attachment is how we view our life and relationships, and how secure we are, this perspective also affects how we handle emotions. Narcissistic abuse can be a source of a lot of stress, but so can a lot of other things we experience in life.

Me witnessing my mother's sickness growing wasn't necessarily abuse, but is was stressful. So even myself cant say abuse is the only cause of DP. I do believe there is a lot of stress involved, and to me the idea of narcisstic abuse clicks with a lot of other things Ive experienced.


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## Pyrite (Mar 25, 2014)

Andrea44 said:


> I looked it up and it seems like a bunch of hogwash and is even listed as a questionable diagnosis (possibly a fallacy). MY parents were not narcissists. Good god, just because you had a crap childhood do not assume everyone else has had one too as the reason they have DP.


At this point, I've seen nearly every psychological condition labeled as being potentially a nonexistent construct of the community.

The only reason being that you can't perform a reliable physical, exam as these issues are based exclusively on behavior and environmental factors.

As a result, a psychological diagnosis is really just a way of classifying consistent sets of behavior, which always leaves the door open for people seeing patterns where they don't exist, or even fabricating conditions.

So, nothing within the psychological community can ever be stated with 100% accuracy do to how subjective it all is, but after decades of refinement it has become very reliable.


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## Pyrite (Mar 25, 2014)

Andrea44 said:


> There is an undertone of victim blaming in this post (as with many) that I will admit irks me. Suggesting a theory is fine, but the OP said it was entirely matter of fact that everyone with DP has been emotionally abused or emotionally shunned by mom and dad which I think is utterly ridiculous.
> 
> Also Americans are not a race.


I recall you frequently making matter-of-fact claims that DP is always chronic and a physical disease, which is equally ridiculous. So, it's the pot calling the kettle black.

Okay fine, then should I just call you prejudiced or a bigot? Either way that was completely uncalled for.


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## Pyrite (Mar 25, 2014)

Andrea44 said:


> I said neurological disorder - which it very well might be. Many cases of DP are chronic which then results in what is known as depersonalization disorder. Both my claims are backed up by modern psychiatry and are not just some theory I decided to come up with for the LULZ and to piss everyone off.


Neither is the abuse one, which is backed by modern psychology, if you took the time to thoroughly research it. It's a complex matter that also applies to many people, not the nonsense your claiming it is.


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## Braud (May 29, 2014)

Ok wheter if it's because of parental abuse, or if it's because of a mental disorder.... what then? I think we are missing the point here, the way would be to think "Ok, assuming this is the reason, what should I do now to overcome it?" The reason itself doesn't really matter after you've already got the condition.. Maybe when you get the right treatment, it will show you the true nature of it's origin, but that's barely what i'm really interested about. Don't want to become a psychologist, just want to be cured.


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## Braud (May 29, 2014)

Andrea44 said:


> DP is a mental illness. Add everyone that has it is actually "insane" to some degree or will go insane in the future. I know that I will likely end up on the street or in a mental institution for the rest of my life because of my multiple SEVERE mental disorders and you should too.


Hey Andrea44, don't lose faith in yourself. Check out this TED talk:

http://www.ted.com/talks/elyn_saks_seeing_mental_illness

This woman has schizophrenia, but nevertheless she managed to become a uni teacher, and get a husband.


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## Guest (May 30, 2014)

Braud said:


> Ok wheter if it's because of parental abuse, or if it's because of a mental disorder.... what then? I think we are missing the point here, the way would be to think "Ok, assuming this is the reason, what should I do now to overcome it?" The reason itself doesn't really matter after you've already got the condition.. Maybe when you get the right treatment, it will show you the true nature of it's origin, but that's barely what i'm really interested about. Don't want to become a psychologist, just want to be cured.


This is how I cope.

Check these links out.

http://depersonalizationrecovery.com/articles/how-do-i-cure-depersonalization-disorder/

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201211/heal-writing-about-your-trauma

Harris Harrington calls DP the "missing pages of our life story", and says that creating a coherent narrative of our lives can resolve traumas.

The way we understand our past and our relationships takes an effect on how we handle our emotions. I've been working on my life story for the past couple of weeks, and have about 100+ pages written. I'm still remember things to write down so I go back and jot them down.

I personally like this idea, and I love writing so why not? . Im not recovered from DP, but my anxiety is nowhere near the levels it used to be. I've even felt feelings I haven't felt in years. I've also learned somethings about myself, I would've never payed attention to if I didn't write.


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## Pyrite (Mar 25, 2014)

Andrea44 said:


> DP is a mental illness. Add everyone that has it is actually "insane" to some degree or will go insane in the future. I know that I will likely end up on the street or in a mental institution for the rest of my life because of my multiple SEVERE mental disorders and you should too.


You are just a ray of sunshine, aren't you?

There is literally no evidence or accounts of DP leading to psychosis, schizophrenia or any kind of insanity.

That is just one of the common nonsense fears that the noobies on here have, and things get so much better once they drop it.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

Andrea44 said:


> There is an undertone of victim blaming in this post (as with many) that I will admit irks me. Suggesting a theory is fine, but the OP said it was entirely matter of fact that everyone with DP has been emotionally abused or emotionally shunned by mom and dad which I think is utterly ridiculous.
> 
> Also Americans are not a race.


Why are you mocking me?
What makes you think your information is superior to mine if you choose to claim that each experience varies?
You don't know what my life is like, what I've learned from my strenous amount of suffering, you are just simply trying to validate yourself without trying to be empathetic to the undertone of my issues. You are self-absorbed.

This is an example of narcissism. This is the central reason of why nobody grows up properly.

I don't really care if I'm not putting these things into more "hypothesis" like manner as Dreamer so abundantly demands it because I suppose neither of you understand the very pit of what I'm talking about

I respect my own voice and I respect what I feel.

You are not the hierarchy of mental disorders. Everyone on this website should take these things into careful consideration.

If you don't, that's your problem. If the title didn't agree with you, don't read it.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

SolomonOrlando said:


> Since your posts are always "matter-of-fact", to back those claims up with "modern psychiatry" would mean you'd have to source where you received your information. I haven't seen you *once* source anything that you've said, especially both of the claims you're mentioning now.


It doesn't matter

Andrea is apparently too "mainstream psychiatry" to deal with all of these nasty presumptions about people.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

EVEN THOUGH PSYCHIATRY IS APPARENTLY DOING SO WELL FOR TREATING ALL OF THESE MULTIPLE MENTAL DISORDERS.

YUP.

We're all apparently crazy, it's too bad nobody understands us.

This is a self-defeating attitude

Didn't anyone ever teach you how to love yourself?


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## Haumea (Jul 11, 2009)

I absolutely agree that narcissistic abuse has been a major factor in my developing DPD. Low self-esteem, bottling up self-assertiveness, etc.

One can't allow oneself to become bitter though - allowing oneself to start viewing oneself as a victim is counterproductive to recovery.

One must change one's emotional habits and shed the false beliefs that perpetuate the underlying foundation of DPD.

Actually, the biggest unacknowledged fear a DP sufferer may have is actually making these changes.

There's a whole mess of coping mechanisms that develops around that, when facing the fear and changing would simplify one's life greatly.


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

Braud said:


> Hey Andrea44, don't lose faith in yourself. Check out this TED talk:
> 
> http://www.ted.com/talks/elyn_saks_seeing_mental_illness
> 
> This woman has schizophrenia, but nevertheless she managed to become a uni teacher, and get a husband.


I adore Elyn Sacks. She is one of my heroes. I recommend her book "The Center Cannot Hold" -- she has hope for all of us.


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

Jurgen:
I said, some pages back ...



> IMHO, you cannot generalize about anyone on the board here. You really don't know this.
> 
> We're back to making gross generalizations.
> One thing I'm learning more and more is the complexity of how we each become who we are, and why we have one struggle or another, etc.
> ...


I did not see your response ....



> "You really don't know this"
> You're making the same generalization, in which case, this statement is equally dismissive from anyone else's perspective.
> 
> Please spare me your bullshit. If you don't agree, don't come to this thread. It wasn't posted in the debate topic.


Not a generalizatin. Perhaps I didn't make it clear what I was saying is you do not know everyone on this board. You don't know of the people who started this board in 1997 who have come and gone with various stories. You don't "know" people here, unless of course you have indeed found a meetup group. I have been to MANY. I have probably been in contact or in person with DPers ... oh 30 of them over the past 15 years. Met with them on more than one occasion, IN PERSON.

That alone -- that you CANNOT assume to know everyone here -- strangers on the internet with avatars -- that is not possible.

I realize many seem to have been abused in one way or another. Sierra and others talk of verbal abuse in contributing to DP/DR. I exerienced that along with abandonment, chaos at home, endles criticism.

The point is, diagnosing others and one's parents or one's self for that matter, IMHO, does not help.

When I got my diagnosis in 1975 at the age of 16, I was so relieved to know what was wrong. It wasn't until I left home for college at 17 that I could begin work, sorting through the 17 years of mess that was my family.
I am still working.

But I have met IN PERSON individuals from this board. In England, in Los Angeles, here in Michigan and at NAMI Conventions who have DP/DR -- chronic and episodic. A few friends in real life who have revealed it after years. Many had very loving families -- and no, they didn't imagine that they did. I also attend an anxiety/depression management support group where the oldesst individual is 72 (a recovering alcoholic with severe social anxiety and depression -- and he is a therapist), and the youngest a 45 year old woman with depression.

Anyway, some people here, and those I've met had drug induced, some didn't. Never had a drug (like myself). Some came from lovely familes and a yes, a good number from abuse -- but from obvious SERIOUS abuse.

*We do not understand the brain. Science doesn't understand the brain ... we are only BEGINNING to understand.*

*But worse than that, I find it disturbing that many here diagnose OTHER PEOPLE on this board. That is the generalization I am talking about.*

A doctor needs time with a patient in person -- I don't care what is wrong with you -- a heart condition or a brain issue.

I don't understand the vitriol here.
No need for anyone here to attack. I fly off the handle now and then, but I try to not insult someone.
And perhaps I was not clear in what I said. Well, at any rate. IMHO.


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## Jonngliniak (Jun 11, 2013)

This forum is getting ridiculous.Now i can see why i have not seen fearless post shit in a while. Jurgen i do believe what you are saying, i have purchased Harris Harringtons and i can easy relate it to why i did suffer depersonalization. But whats the point? Now matter what you post some one is going to tell you other wise and debate you. Shit when i have depersonalization i look to every remedy and psychological approach as to why i am suffering this. I am not doubting any ones coping mechanisms or remedies, i am accepting the fact to get better and to make myself a better person. So many people on this forum speak like they are fucking Psychiatrist or neurologist and act like they know the brain as if it was their own house. The brain is to complex. Users on this website say that those who recovered are not recovered , as if they were them. Im just tired of all this debating and arguing. Dont care what people say and try to make your self better, and live life , and do whatever , but dont let people tell you, You Cant Recover.


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

Jonngliniak, I don't know if you are saying I SAID people don't recovere .. that means you did not read my post. You didn't read it.

Also, to Jurgen. None of us are experts, I agree. We are only "experts" of our own situation and it doesn't matter how we find the way out -- whatever works, works. And that is wonderful.

Your subject heading is:

Almost everyone on here suffers from narcissistic abuse

*If the subject heading was "I believe Narcissistic Abuse is the reason for my DP"*

Well, I don't think this argument would have started.
But we also are allowed our own POVs. We share our own personal experience. We can't mold it to "fit" what everyone else believes.
Yeah, the subject heading was what bothered me. It was a generalization to everyone here, not something relevant to you specifically.

OK, I'll leave this thread, lol.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

The sickening part about this whole DP epidemic is the neglect and misinterpretation of information. Everyone is twisting their information in ways that make it seem like it only could apply to them and refuse to see past their own reasoning.

And the sad part is that everyone is so desperate. Everyone is in fear and will cling to the first sight of anything that may help them relieve these fears. When you are telling these people, "sorry - but there is no conclusive evidence to cure DP", you're making them hopeless.

My information comes from a place of suffering. It comes from living in the very pit of my stomach. My only hope is to get better and help other people get better. But that can't happen when people feel like they're being misinformed because of people like Dreamer or Andrea, who insist on contributing an understanding but never actually try to lead people in the right direction of where to look


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

*Dreamer* said:


> Jonngliniak, I don't know if you are saying I SAID people don't recovere .. that means you did not read my post. You didn't read it.
> 
> Also, to Jurgen. None of us are experts, I agree. We are only "experts" of our own situation and it doesn't matter how we find the way out -- whatever works, works. And that is wonderful.
> Your subject heading is:
> ...


I refuse to write it that way because you don't seem to note the difference between my generation and your generation of people who have mental illness

I'm only 18

My generation is suffering from not knowing who they are because they have been LIED to, stereotyped, adopting other people's personalities to fit in their environment. They do not know themselves. They have no sense of self, no psychological development, their personality stems from a place of suppression. They don't know what it's really like to love anyone because they are just strands and figments of the shadows YOUR GENERATION has cursed us with by trying to stereotype us into believing we have some in curable disease.

I refuse to allow my peers to just be statistics of mental illness.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

ON TOP OF THAT most of the members who come to this site are mostly ALL my age. There is a correlation between our upbringings that relates to not only our parents but society at large that is constantly warping our minds and kicking us in a deeper hole than we really are


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

Jurgen said:


> I refuse to write it that way because you don't seem to note the difference between my generation and your generation of people who have mental illness
> 
> I'm only 18
> 
> ...


I realize that our age difference is significant, however, I have witnessed the growth of your generation. The circumstances of my DP onset are the same as those recounted in the 1800s. I was abused. I have NEVER said I wasn't. I have worked my entire life picking up the pieces of MY pain, which it would seem you don't acknowledge. But that is fine, I can't do a thing about it.

Also, I am a mental health advocate. If you haven't visited my site, you do not know how I try to help others with DP and other mental illnesses. How I have put my butt out on the interent. And it gives me a sense of purpose and connection, and if my story helps one person feel left alone I feel wonderful.

I have also been interviewed in a magazine, I speak very openly about my DP/DR, my abuse. My generation didn't speak up. What is wonderful is that now I am not ASHAMED of my family or my illness as I find my friends (from KINDERGARTEN) have suffered in the same way.

I only ask you not to judge me, or dismiss my pain. Look at my website, I offer links, I offer books, I offer coping skills, etc., etc. I am writing a book I want to be published officially. I take part in research. I teach my doctors/therapists ... I have over all of these years.

Do you see, you don't know me either and yet, you would tell me what is wrong with me and why. I have not done that to you.

Where is the kindnes here. I can't speak for the attitudes of anyone else.

I am sorrry you are suffering. I am angry that all of us have this damned problem. And that is why I try to help.

My story, my symptoms, coping section, story of my abuse, story of my theories, etc., etc. I started that website in 2000. I am STILL working to get a speaker to go to a NAMI Convention to speak about DP. Very costly and difficult to arrange.

Have a look at the conventions I attend. I don't know if I can afford D.C. this year. Still hoping I can go.

http://www.nami.org

Please, let's not fight.


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## *Dreamer* (Feb 18, 2014)

I am now helping friends and family members of kids YOUR AGE. They come to me for guidance simply in negotiating the mental health system which is a disaster. They know I will not judge them. They know I have problems.

I also know one kid, now 19, who could have been Elliot Roger, who killed and wounded many young people at UC Santa Barbara. I have helped raise him since he was born. And I care about my cousins who have illness, and one cousin whose 18 year old son is seriously ill.

I am not out of touch with your generation. I don't want to be. I am also a member of Active Minds. A group of young people helping other young people. I HAVE PAIN AS YOU DO. I only ask I not be judged.

http://www.nami.org/template.cfm?section=convention


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## Guest (May 31, 2014)

Jurgen said:


> It's true
> Fearless has been 100% right about everything
> It's fucking horrible and most of my mental toxicities stem from a place of pure oppression
> I have no foundation, no sense of self, and all I do is disassociate from these problems because my "parents" never taught me how to love myself
> ...


What if you're numb tho . I think i turned myself into a full narcissit. Not my parents but myself. I literally cant go back to how i was before and im losing my awareness. My parents and everyone says my douchebag personality is constant now. I cant feel anymore. I dont think its DP..


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

*Dreamer* said:


> I am now helping friends and family members of kids YOUR AGE. They come to me for guidance simply in negotiating the mental health system which is a disaster. They know I will not judge them. They know I have problems.
> I also know one kid, now 19, who could have been Elliot Roger, who killed and wounded many young people at UC Santa Barbara. I have helped raise him since he was born. And I care about my cousins who have illness, and one cousin whose 18 year old son is seriously ill.
> I am not out of touch with your generation. I don't want to be. I am also a member of Active Minds. A group of young people helping other young people. I HAVE PAIN AS YOU DO. I only ask I not be judged.
> http://www.nami.org/template.cfm?section=convention


Why should I trust you if your generational errors of understanding mental illness has led to an absolute reign of terror on my peers? Why should WE suffer because the mental health profession does not feel like plunging themselves into the pits of oblivion to understand what real suffering is? Why has nobody your age felt enraged enough to exploit the weaknesses of our society and how it has caused us to spiral in the pit of suffering? Why should I trust you?

I have a blackened soul. Only God can know my suffering. I am only 18 and I feel like I have lived a century.

No. There's no more room for this. There's no more room for errors.


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2014)

The best pieces of advice I ever got in regards to healing from the dissociative disorders were:-

*Stay away from psychiatrists

*Stay away from hospitals and 'the system'

*Stay away from the science based medical world

*Get the abusive, negative people out my life

*Find the healthy, truly caring people and include them in my life.

They were all very important for my healing. Without that advice, I'd still stuck and medicated.


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## Jurgen (Aug 3, 2013)

Huggy Bear said:


> The problem is that very often what is purported to be science is actually pseudoscience. The famous Naloxon study is one example...


Lol I was literally going to say this same exact thing. Most of the time it's all based on speculation and no conclusive evidence


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## Cotillion (Oct 23, 2012)

Jurgen said:


> It's true
> Fearless has been 100% right about everything
> It's fucking horrible and most of my mental toxicities stem from a place of pure oppression
> I have no foundation, no sense of self, and all I do is disassociate from these problems because my "parents" never taught me how to love myself
> ...


It may be right for some people, but certainly not all. I developed some bad mental habits because of abuse (school bullying was the worst for me), but all in all, it's my own habits that are to blame.

Now, I really want to know how did you come to the conclusion that almost everyone's dp here is caused by narcissistic abuse? Did you talk to every member of this site? Did you analyze every introduction post?

It's malevolent towards new members to spurt out such self-made conclusion that will only scare people who are already scared enough. How exactly did a genius like you become a moderator? If I was you, I would be fucking ashamed of myself for posting such claims that have no concrete evidence what so ever.

Yes, indeed, it's time for you to see a therapist.


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2014)

Huggy Bear said:


> The problem is that very often what is purported to be science is actually pseudoscience. The famous Naloxon study is one example...


That's also not forget the important research that showed us, homosexuality was a mental disorder. And that was up until the 1980's.. I wonder if medication was ever developed to treat this too?


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2014)

Selig said:


> No better than placebos in the application of depression that wasn't the result of an actual chemical imbalance. I have no idea why anyone believed this in the first place- depression more commonly seems to be related to discontent with life factors, not low serotonin et cetera.
> 
> Still useful in the context of OCD.


Good point Selig.. and here's a link that supports what you say..






The burning question is.. Why are ssri's still so widely prescribed for depression (often within less than an hours consultation) if they really aren't better that a placebo?


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2014)

Selig said:


> "Stay away from the science based medical world"
> 
> Yes, absolutely embrace anecdotal evidence and pseudoscience instead.


Selig, correct me if I'm wrong here, but are you saying, only treatment methods that are backed by 'empirical studies' are worthy of embracing and the rest should be discarded as 'pseudo science' or misleading or false?

Do you believe the outcomes/results of 'empirical studies' may be influenced by the drug companies? Do you believe there is truth in the knowledge that this research may be (and often is) funded by the drug companies?


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2014)

*Dreamer* said:


> I am now helping friends and family members of kids YOUR AGE. They come to me for guidance simply in negotiating the mental health system which is a disaster. They know I will not judge them. They know I have problems.
> 
> I also know one kid, now 19, who could have been Elliot Roger, who killed and wounded many young people at UC Santa Barbara. I have helped raise him since he was born. And I care about my cousins who have illness, and one cousin whose 18 year old son is seriously ill.
> 
> ...


Dreamer can I ask why you say the mental health system is a disaster? How do you see the system when it comes to helping people with dissociative disorders? I'm just asking b/c I'm curious as to how you see it.

In Australia, I've learnt to believe the mental health system is a disaster as well.. It's been interesting talking to mental health professionals in the past 4 years, especially social workers. They generally consider the MH system a mess and extremely unhelpful right across the board for all types of MH issues. Lack of funding is obviously a huge issue.. just as is over medicating.


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2014)

Selig said:


> If you have any well sourced information that shows drug companies rig research for monetary gain, I'd be open to reading it.


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2014)

Selig said:


> The key word being 'embracing' here. I think people should be cautious to embrace approaches that have no empirical evidence, lest they waste their time or worsen in the process. An example I would use is Steve Jobs significantly shortening his life span via alternative treatment for pancreatic cancer. He ultimately died much earlier than he needed to had he carried on with conventional medicine.
> 
> If you have any well sourced information that shows drug companies rig research for monetary gain, I'd be open to reading it.
> 
> Re: The SSRI's. We are just on the same page regarding that. SSRI's should not still be handed out like candy for depression, when the occurrence of actual neurotransmitter issues causing depression seems rather low (don't have source, read it awhile back) in comparison.


I think people on this site should be cautious embracing pharma meds. I think it's fairly safe to say, the posts speaks for themselves. After reading through the hundreds of posts with people talking about how they are responding on their meds, I have no doubt the majority of people here are having all sorts of problems, many undeniably exacerbated by the meds themselves. Would you agree?

I assume these meds have some sort of 'overwhelming research' to prove there effectiveness. Would they not?

I don't think I've stumbled on any posts where people have talked about going backwards after trying alternative medicine. There probably are some posts here with people giving examples of this, but I can't recall reading any.


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2014)

Selig said:


> I never understood the hatred for modern medicine, it has brought us a long way. Yes, companies will make a lot of money of them, such is life. If you do your research and understand what goes into your body and what it does, you can make informed decisions.


Personally I don't hate the modern medicine at all. I'm very wary but I don't hate it. I agree, great things are out there b/c of modern western medicine. I think it's very wise to do your homework and keep an open mind as much as possible. To tell the truth, nowadays, if I'm doubting treatment offered to me from doctors, I'll use a whole list of ways to collect information to help me make a decision on which way to turn.

When it comes to treating my mental illness (a dissociative disorder) I had very bad experiences with meds (as have many here) and I looked hard at other ways to approach this. I'm glad I kept my mind open, b/c it's paying off big time. I'm healthy and healing. I honestly couldn't ask for more. I know I'm going to be working at this for many years to come, but if I keep making progress the way I am, I know things will easier and I'll get stronger as times goes on..

As I said&#8230; the posts on this forum regarding pharma meds speaks for themselves imo. Many more bad experiences than healing going on without a doubt! That's one of the ways which has shaped my beliefs.. And yet, over and over we are told by the doctors, "meds are the answer", not necessarily for a cure, often just for 'relief'. I don't see that here, and I question that 'belief', and I think everyone should.

You can't make an informed decision, if you discount a whole world of healing methods based on the fact that they haven't had 'empirical studies' carried out on them. Selig.. do you really know what's in your medication and the effects they it has on your body? How do you know it's safe?

One day the science based medical world might catch up and have their research carried out on a whole lot of things.. until they do.. I'm sticking with the things that have been proven by other means. Indeed, sometimes it's trial and error, but at least in the 'alternative/natural world, we don't have the horrible side effects that so many suffer from from western medicine. And that's a big one when it comes to mental health if you ask me. We're often living on the edge anyway!


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## Pyrite (Mar 25, 2014)

Andrea44 said:


> People these days want to play the blame game for everything. Blame your parents, blame your teachers, blame society, blame the government.
> 
> Have you ever thought that your condition exists independent from all these outside influences? have you ever thought that no one person or thing is to blame for what you're experiencing and what you have is just essentially a part of you.


Everything is interconnected and issues rarely exist in isolation.

Even if a condition is physical, it will still be impacted by the goings on in a person's life.

Thinking ANYTHING is independent of outside influence is always a bad move; you won't get anywhere like that.

It's about seeing the forest for the trees.

I think these days, much as I hate using that term, there is a much larger issue of people constantly trying to pin the entirety of their problems on factors that are beyond their control.

Genetic predisposition is the new fate.

Fat? Well that's not your fault, you were just somehow genetically predisposed.

Bad Grades? Genetic predisposition to ADD like symptoms.

Hard time making friends? Genetic predisposition to social anxiety.

So many people say that they're problems are just genetic predispositions, and how many of them have received a test to prove it? None.

I know full well that genetic predispositions are a real thing, but it's also abused as a way for people to shift control and responsibility for the problems in their life onto outside forces.

People who do that are less likely to make decisions and take actions that help themselves.

Every time my roommates would inevitably fail an exam they would do two things, blame the teachers, or say they are just inherently bad at the subject.

I lived with them for a year, and not a single time did any of them say "maybe I should try harder", but why should they? The problem isn't with them, it's entirely with factors beyond their ability to influence.

No one wants to take responsibility for the problems in their life, but a part of moving forward is doing just that.

And this isn't victim blaming, even if a person is genetically predisposed to something they still have the power to change their lives for the better, they just need to figure out the best way to do that.


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## Meticulous (Jul 30, 2013)

This whole thread is one giant cat fight.

Definitely not a productive one.


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## Haumea (Jul 11, 2009)

He's not denying the influence of genetics, but genetics are rarely the only factor in any disorder and to use them as an excuse to do nothing, to have a shitty defeatist attitude and to spread this mindset to others is nothing more than good old "misery loves company."

His assessment of many young people today is right on the money: victim mentality, helplessness, powerlessness and inability to tolerate even temporary discomfort without turning to escapism.


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## Pyrite (Mar 25, 2014)

Andrea44 said:


> Obesity can be genetic. Ever heard of Hashomato's thyroiditis, Pollycystic ovarian syndrome, Cushing's disease? folks that have these conditions gain weight on half the calories of regular adults and impaired ability to burn calories.
> 
> Poor grades can be the result of a learning disability and poor social skills can be the result of Asperger's syndrome (which both me and my biological father have) or non-verbal learning disability. All of these things are inherited.
> 
> Why do you deny the influence of genetics?


I never denied anything, I'm just pointing out that some people are quick to baseless assume a genetic cause for their problems, simply because it's easier on them then admitting they play any role in their hardships.


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## Seppuku (Nov 12, 2013)

> Have you ever thought that your condition exists independent from all these outside influences? have you ever thought that no one person or thing is to blame for what you're experiencing and what you have is just essentially a part of you.


Well, if it was just a part of us, why would we complain? Don't you realize that everyone here complain about the DP/DR because they used not to experience it? And somehow, they got this condition and now are struggling to get back to what they used to be?

This is not about blaming, and it is not about complaining. People here just want answers, not because they are curious, but because they want to get out of this. That's probably the whole point of this forum: understanding the depersonnalization and derealization to fight it. By saying that kind of thing, you're pushing people to look for an answer that will never really cure them. In fact, you're even pushing them to stop looking for answers.

Now, about DP/DR: it's a symptom. Most mental conditions can provoke this symptom, from the simple Depression to the scary Schizophrenia. It's not the simple consequence of a brain "wired wrong", it's always a consequence of a comorbid mental condition. Always. And unless you have psychosis, which I doubt we have, there is no reason why DP/DR would not be permanent.

DP/DR is a natural reaction of our body from stressful events, and by stressful, I also mean events that we have no control over but somehow, put us in distress. The MRI studies have shown that the brain part processing emotions of someone experiencing this symptom is less active than the one of someone with no symptom at all, and no genetic studies have ever proven that this brain part had any differences. Even thou most people tend to think DP/DR is an unknown disease, that no one ever studied, they are wrong: this is a well-known condition, but it's mostly considered a symptom by the scientific community (the only exception may be in the DSM-V).

And most psychologists agree to say that it's some kind of safe mode our body use when in front of stressful events, a kind of dissociation. Using only the most basics parts of your brain, you're free to flee or fight the danger. Just like when your heart pump more blood into your torso and head when you're freezing, to keep the most important organs working.

The main difference of course is that for us, there is no obvious danger. And that's the tricky part.

About genetics and mental conditions: it is indeed a proven fact that some conditions are caused by genetics factors. But that's never the only cause of a mental condition. It's a combination of many factors, that create those conditions. Having the same genetic "default" as a schizophrenic doesn't mean you'll be schizophrenic, and many studies have shown this. Feel free to read them yourself.

Like I said, DP/DR isn't permanent. And even if you have psychosis or schizophrenia, those symptoms are amongst the ones that medicine can "cure".

So please, stop saying it may be a part of ourselves: it's not.

And by the way...



> I truly believe those that go on to develop the most severe mental illnesses indeed have structural abnormalities within their brain that may be inherited through genetic default.


A little man from Germany once said that, and then decided to purge the world from those genetic defaults... Be careful when you draw that kind of conclusions, that's the game of eugenics.


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## YouMust (May 5, 2014)

Jurgen said:


> Why are you mocking me?
> What makes you think your information is superior to mine if you choose to claim that each experience varies?
> You don't know what my life is like, what I've learned from my strenous amount of suffering, you are just simply trying to validate yourself without trying to be empathetic to the undertone of my issues. You are self-absorbed.
> This is an example of narcissism. This is the central reason of why nobody grows up properly.
> ...


Wow, man, you really have something for narcissists, don't you? I'd talk about that to a therapist, albeit you probably already did. I bet 20 bucks I don't have that your problem, perhaps all of your problems, have their roots solely on your parents abuse or your own acquired narcissism. Yes, defending your ideas and attacking people who contradict you the way you are doing so (of course you can't see it), and calling out on other narcissists is an obvious sign of a problem.

But don't go all Rambo on me, I don't visit this site often and am just trying to help you.


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## Riah (Feb 17, 2014)

heretic said:


> It's impossible to separate "actual science" from pseudoscience without inductive reasoning; belief. The majority of American psychologists do not believe in dissociate disorders and neither do I. There still was a period of time in my life in which I believed I had DP. I suffered from believing so. When I stopped believing DP was real, I began to recover. I gained more time and energy to focus on aspects of life I can actually improve


I can't really fathom thinking I had DP, then not believing in dissociative disorders. My visual and physical disturbances are terrifying, let alone the 'mental' aspect. The brain is a test tube full of finicky chemicals. Just because something doesn't have physical ailments doesn't mean it isn't an infliction.

"Mind over matter" is pretty damn impossible, when your whole existence and being is incapable of grasping the concept of the mind sometimes.

You do make a decent point, that worrying about DP and trying to decode it and cure it doesn't help that much. It's a shitty experience that most of us want to get rid of fast, but everyone heals at their own pace through different methods. And those methods might be the kickstarter to getting back on track to experiencing life the way a mentally sound person does.


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## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

seafoam neon said:


> I think people just don't like the stigma attached to the word "abuse". People normally view abuse as physical, sexual, or verbal. IMO narcissistic abuse is all about denying emotions and needs. That's why children of the self-absorbed don't think they've been abused because they have to deny their pain so much to cope until it all crashes down.


In my experience narcissistic abuse was very physical, verbal and of course what u said denying the personhood of ur emotions and needs.


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## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

Jurgen said:


> I admitted to my parents for the first time yesterday that I was in deep pain and I needed to see someone. In this moment my mother opened her heart to me for solace and I felt so ashamed and almost froze over on the inside, like I didn't want her help. It was such a resentful response from me. I felt so disgusted by her offer it made me recognize how much resent I had been harboring in my heart for not only my mother but all human beings as a result of her own self-absorption.


Can you tell me what ur mother did ...did she start talking about herself ??


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## missjess (Jun 1, 2012)

TheMessenjah said:


> This whole thread is one giant cat fight.
> Definitely not a productive one.


Well it is a debate right


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## DaisyMen (Jul 20, 2013)

I think it's very silly for you to blame your parents for your mental illness. Not everyone is even educated on mental illnesses and those who are may not know how to deal with it let alone bring someone up to be mental illness free. If there was a way that is in the teachings of parents that makes your child mental illness free, i'm sure everyone would be doing it and there would be no illnesses in the world, but sadly as Andrea44 said, mental illness has no discrimination, and even in the best families it can be found. Blaming your parents for not teaching you "how to love yourself" is just another defence mechanism. Also, blaming someone else for your troubles is not going to help you. It's not your parents job to teach you how to love yourself. That's your job. If you truly want to recover, this is not the way to do it. Use the spite you have for you parents in a different more positive way. Or as you said, go see a counsellor.


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