# THC-induced DP/DR



## university girl

Hey all. I am starting this thread because I am very interested in THC (the active part of marijuana/cannabis) and its effects on the brain/body. Afterall, THC is what ultimately triggered my DP/DR and I believe it has caused a 'permanent' change in my brain chemistry. I am no doc, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Most of what I say is coming from reliable sources though, and will be referenced when I use them.

Here's an awesome summary-type paper if you are interested: Iversen L. Cannabis and the brain. Brain 2003; 126: 1252-70.

Here's some stuff I've learnt so far from this paper...

There are 2 receptors for THC in our bodies, namely CB1 and CB2. CB1 is only expressed in the brain whereas CB2 is only expressed in peripheral tissues (mostly tissues of the immune system). Endogenous (naturally occur in our bodies) cannabinoid receptor ligands are anandamide, 2-arachidonylglycerol and 2-arachidonylglyceryl ether. THC "exerts all of its known central effects through the CB1 cannabinoid receptor." CB1 is found largely on the presynaptic parts of neurons (where neurotransmitters (NTs) are released from prior to stimulating a nerve) thus suggesting a role in regulation of NT release. Evidence supports this hypothesis *as activation of CB1 receptors by THC has been shown to inhibit release of L-glutamate, GABA, noradrenaline, dopamine, 5-HT and acetylcholine NTs!!!. *GABAergic interneurons in the hippocampus, amygdala, and cerebral cortex contain lots of CB1 receptors. Areas of the brain with lots of CB1 receptors include the cerebral cortex, basal ganglia, cerebellum, hypothalamus, anterior cingulate cortex, and hippocamus.

That's all for now. Comments? Oh, and remember, just because your DP/DR was not triggered by marijuana, it doesn't mean you do not have the same type of NT imbalance as myself.

-university girl


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## DutchMark

Well, I read the summary. I also suffer from THC induced DP/DR (mostly DR) but when that happened it took me 3 month's to get on paxil, wich is not a long period of time. 
The DP kicked in with a huge panic attack, and the first week after that I also had frequent panic attacks wich later became GAD. 
I also think that the bad reaction on THC resulting in a panic attack is a form of trauma.
Since i'm on paxil my DP has became much better. I also think i'ts an obsession (i'm always checking if my DP is gone or not).
I don't think it's a permanent thing with THC induced DP. I got way better since five month's ago when my DP kicked in. I am positive about recovery. 
Uni girl do you think it will ever fade away with time?


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## dalailama15

Hi Uni-girl. Great start. Plus, this particular forum could use a little action. 

The conventional wisdom at dpselfhelp is that we are dealing with one of two things. 1) Anxiety, and 2) a psychological "need" to dissociate. Yes of course these things contribute to these symptoms, and for many people they may correctly explain everything, from diagnosis, to prognosis to treatment to cure.

But this doesn't work for everyone, it is not at all clear that there is not more going on. Plus it is not, primarily, what is coming out of the hard science beginning to be done on this, as well as the major research projects, like the good Doctor Simion's. (As I understand it)

I don't have time right now to contribute more than this. (And haven't had time to really think this post through or edit it.)

Mark, there is no reason to believe that any of this is permanent or irreparable, no reason to define it, even, as "damage." There could be a biochemical disruption, or malfunction that is impairing certain functions rather than damaging them, and so, could easily be reversible.

Also thought itself seems to be able to change or re-route the biochemistry of the brain. And there is some stuff out there about self-stimulation of the amygdala through things like meditation and guided imagery, and even the "think only positive thoughts" kinds of stuff people like Tony Roberts sell.

And believe me, I'd rather drink muddy water and sleep in a hollow log than try to meditate, imagine stuff, or become my own coach. But if this kind of stuff is really indicated -- WTF do I have to lose? And the fact that it is so difficult for me may actually mean something.

At any rate, I've got to go, but I'll be back.

thanks kids.

your friendly neighborhood dalilamictalama


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## DutchMark

Allright then, I know neurological patterns can be altered by thought, but it can be a pretty hard thing to do!
Also I know meditation (if used in a proper way) can alter neurological paterns and the amygdala. This is definatly worth trying if it helps. I think most important is to not use any THC anymore ever.
Also, the linden method is based on 'resetting' the amygdala, I think i might have another look on that


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## university girl

'Dalaiamygdala', this sounds interesting: 

Synergistic Interactions between Cannabinoids and Environmental Stress in the Activation of the Central Amygdala.
from Neuropsychopharmacology 2004 Jul 28

Unfortunately I only have access to the abstract and haven't quite gotten to reading that yet... busy with various doc appointments. Fun stuff.

Later!
uni-grl


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## dalailama15

> Brain imaging studies in
> depersonalization disorder reveal widespread alterations in metabolic activity
> in the sensory association cortex. Aversive stimuli provoke prefrontal
> hyperactivation and limbic inhibition, possibly a reverse pattern from PTSD.


Daphne Simeon, Mount Sinai School of Medicine (notes from some conference)

Looking at the CB1 stuff and pulling some more stuff together, but been kind of busy. But CB1 as inhibiting releast of several NTs is interesting. Combine this with the other endogenous ligand for these receptors, anandamide, which has been connected with the extinction of aversive memories, plus the CB1 connection to the limbic system is stronger than the one I was trying to make with anandamide. . . at any rate, here is a lot of stuff in the mix.

"prefrontal hyperactivation and limbic inhibition" Is this a definition of DP?

We all know about prefrontal hyperactivation--words words words; thoughts thoughts thoughts--this seems to be one of the core symptoms so many of us describe.

Limbic inhibition? The limbic system, the core of the mammalian brain (built on top of the reptillian brain,) and responsible for so much of the stuff I have difficulties with -- so basic, and for a region abouit the size of a walnut, so fundamental to . . well, here's a quick description of its functions:

Functions 
sets the emotional tone of the mind 
filters external events through internal states (emotional coloring) 
tags events as internally important 
stores highly charged emotional memories 
modulates motivation 
controls appetite and sleep cycles 
promotes bonding 
directly processes the sense of smell 
modulates libido

The Limbic system: Hypothalmus, Hippocampus, Amygdala



> Related areas
> 
> Besides the hypothalamus, hippocampus, and amygdala, there are other areas in the structures near to the limbic system that are intimately connected to it:
> 
> The cingulate gyrus is. . . , seems to be responsible for associating of memories to smells and to pain.
> 
> The septum, which lies in front of the thalamus, has some neurons that seem to be centers for orgasm (one for guys, four for girls).
> 
> [uhhh. . . nevemind]
> 
> The ventral tegmental area of the brain stem (just below the thalamus) consists of dopamine pathways that seem to be responsible for pleasure.
> 
> The prefrontal cortex. . . , is also closely linked to the limbic system. Besides apparently being involved in thinking about the future, making plans, and taking action, it also appears to be involved in the same dopamine pathways as the ventral tegmental area, and plays a part in pleasure and addiction.


From a general Psych. page
http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/limbicsystem.html

. . . I'm so tired and got to go. Still have to think about this stuff, but I especially like the direct connectin to prefrontal cortex. At any rate.

--dalaimigdalama


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## dalailama15

this doesn't make much sense tonight. i need to start over. confusing CB1 and 2-AG, and confused about function of prefrontal cortex as well. ah well. too complex for one fell swoop.. . still.


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## JAG

I have THC-induced DP/DR. I think we should form a club. :lol:


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## Guest

Where are all the LSD induced dp drers????? sigh....


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## Guest

i have THC induced dp aswell but i have a feelign that it was spun with PCP  although my friend seems to be ok and he smoked the same stuff


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## JAG

For me it was THC alone.


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## Blix

First post. 

While I don't have THC induced DP/DR, I find that cannabis increases the
severity of my symptoms. I smoke daily because of severe anxiety and find
that when I smoke and for days afterward, if I take a break for that long, my
DP gets way worse. Doesn't bother me much. Such a comfortable feeling.

I've had DP/DR since I was about four years old more or less on a constant
basis. I can live with the DP and basically conduct my affairs on autopilot.
I'm very good at this, but as you can imagine, I don't like to drive much.

Anyone else out there who's long term and basically likes being
Depersonalized? I couldn't imagine being otherwise.


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## JAG

Blix said:


> First post.
> 
> While I don't have THC induced DP/DR, I find that cannabis increases the
> severity of my symptoms. I smoke daily because of severe anxiety and find
> that when I smoke and for days afterward, if I take a break for that long, my
> DP gets way worse. Doesn't bother me much. Such a comfortable feeling.
> 
> I've had DP/DR since I was about four years old more or less on a constant
> basis. I can live with the DP and basically conduct my affairs on autopilot.
> I'm very good at this, but as you can imagine, I don't like to drive much.
> 
> Anyone else out there who's long term and basically likes being
> Depersonalized? I couldn't imagine being otherwise.


I don't know if I like it...... but I can't say I hate it.... I mean what's the point in being miserable about it. basically I've learned to accept it as part of my life. No point in wasting time being upset about something that seems more or less permanent. Besides, acceptance makes DP tolerable, and almost non-existent (yet you always seem to know it is there, for the most part, quietly watching.)


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## university girl

Will6, that's what happened to me. Two of my friends had no problem. I've spoken to a police officer who specializes in drugs and she said just because they didn't have a bad reaction it doesn't mean it wasn't laced.

I went to a mental health forum recently and learned that even though we were predisposed to this mental illness, without smoking the pot we may not have developed the illness. I was always unsure if I would have developed the disorder later down the road had I not smoked pot. Now I know I may not have.

One more thing. Daphne Simeon will be carrying out a studythat will look at individuals with THC-induced DP/DR. Just thought I'd let you all know there are people out there trying to figure this out. There will be a post about it later on.



will6 said:


> i have THC induced dp aswell but i have a feelign that it was spun with PCP  although my friend seems to be ok and he smoked the same stuff


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## mulder

This is good to know! Another THC induced sufferer here.


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## Manic D

ZiggomatiX said:


> Where are all the LSD induced dp drers????? sigh....


For me it was mushrooms that did me in...I've had DP/DR for 4 years now since my bad trip. The last year has been about the worst though. I'm a little surprised to hear about people getting DP/DR from pot...I always thought it was harmless. I guess that's a false assumption. When discussions like this get started I really have no idea what DP/DR is. It's just so strange that people contract it for so many different reasons (I guess all circumstances are traumatic but still). I just wish it were as easy to get rid of it as it was to get it in the first place...regards to all the other sufferers here.


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## Guest

I had DR/DP since I was 8 -- maybe younger. Periodic attacks where SUDDENLY, nothing felt real. But when I was teenager and smoked pot for the first time, nothing happened. Same for time my second and third time smoking pot.

Then one early evening with two friends, we sat on the lawn in a park next to our High School. I smoked a half a joint. And unlike President Clinton, I inhaled. We all got up and stared to walk off.

Suddenly, my friends were way ahead of me. My mind was drifting off - time was strobing. And very intense unreality set in.

My friends asked me "what's wrong". I said that I feel funny. They laughed and said, "yeah, you just smoked half a joint".

I felt very weird, I didn't know what was happening, I was very disoriented. It was like my brain was only working intermittentley -- shutting off, then coming back on. I am thinking that maybe what is happening is that I am dying. I know that I need to go home. But my thoughts keep drifting off. I try to explain how I am feeling -- but I can't. The only thing familiar about this feeling was the DR/DP attacks that I had had frequently most of my life as a child.

I had only smoked pot four times in my life and this was the first time that this happened. I had previous DR/DP experiences many years before trying pot. But this was more severe than any previous experience.

It seem's to me, whatever the THC effected in my brain -- or whatever part or chemistry in my brain that it effected -- can by itself malfunction without being drug impaired -- which may be what causes DR/DP.

Hence, the experience scared the crap out of me. I did try pot one more time months later. And when I did, I went back into the World of Unreality. This time I was able to calm myself through the experience and vowed never to smoke pot again. And I never have. But, I did have DR attacks that happened subsequently on their own. And I became afraid of taking any drug -- recreational or medicinal. This may have helped me in the long run as friends went on to other drugs including LSD. I figured that LSD would put me in a mental institution, so I never even tried it. The talk about flashbacks without even taking the drug made it even a more scarey drug to take. And my future DR suddenly became pot flashbacks for me. This also lead into subsequent panic attacks. And remember, at the time, I did not have a name for DR/DP or have any idea that anybody else had this experience but me.

So, I could be a poster boy for Anti-Drug and I don't drink. To me, taking drugs can really screw up your body chemistry.

Today, I just take a small dosage of beta blocker for BP control and I have taken small dosages of Xanax for anxiety and panic.

If I could go back in time, I would never have tried the pot.

The other thing that I felt quite over the years has been Deja Vu -- like something has already happened. This is very momentary. And it is often accompanied with a feeling of doom -- like, this happended and then something bad follows.


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## Manic D

Everyone experiences periodic dissociative episodes. These typically come in the form of momentary "deja vu" or "out of body" experiences. I used to get them every so often when I was a kid too. Now my life is one big out out of body experience and I don't think there's much hope for getting back in. DP/DR is so fucking weird and awful.


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## Guest

mines was THC, it lasted about a week, i started smoking agian its everythings fine. Please god dont let it come back.

i also have OCD, not severe just kinda hanging in there.


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## university girl

Sharpezor said:


> mines was THC, it lasted about a week, i started smoking agian its everythings fine. Please god dont let it come back.
> 
> i also have OCD, not severe just kinda hanging in there.


Why are you taking such a chance??? I have had chronic DP/DR for ten years and it has been hell. Do you hear me?


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## Guest

I think that if your gona get it, your gona get it,

Becuase everyone uses some kind of drugs. I herd somebody got it from perscription drugs her doctor gave her. others ive herd are THC, shrooms etc...

just my theory.


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## university girl

you need a trigger. without that trigger it is possible you won't get it.


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## Guest

I totally and utterly agree with University Girl.


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## Guest

hi i'm new here!i smoked pot for two years almost everyday.i think that pot does this thing to all of us:it "brinks" up emotions to a high level because it is,simply,"stops time".the brain stops to a single thought(and analyze it).this proccess "shows" our fears,our mind "gaps" that" i think is the reason of panik attacks. i was in panik/DP for 15 years and i say that pot was only the first step to realize my problem.it could be alcohol instead.
alcohol is our legal drug as u know.smoking pot is just a choice.the great matter is the quality of ourlives!!!!!!!


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## Guest_

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## Guest

Hello  My name is Athena. I found this site... maybe a week ago? This has been a life saver- truly. ::sigh of relief:: After reading about diff. opinions on pot causing this, i have begun to decline my habits. i am a pot head. i will go through an 1/8 a week. has anyone else used drugs to self medicate? if so, please reply back. i'm having some difficulty stopping smoking. it's not physically addicting, i know. it is mentally though- I've suffered from dp/dr for over eight years. being high brought me back to this dream world if i started to sift back into reality. any suggestions?
thank you!
peace, love, and happiness


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## Guest

When my DP/DR was at its worst, I felt like I was stoned with no euphoria and 10x the anxiety/panic. At times the room would feel like it was spinning and I felt flat-out confused and disoriented(as I did when I was stoned). When I first tried pot, I was surprised because the experience was far different and far stronger than I had imagined it would be. I actually felt extremely dissociated while under the influence. I think I'm ultra-sensitive to THC or something, because when I told stoner kids and other people who've smoked it before about my experience and how I felt out of my body and dissociated, they would look at me in a blank stare. It made me worry that it was laced or something. It took six weeks or so of weekly usage before it manifested itself into DP/DR.

One interesting thing to note is THC's effects on REM sleep and sleep cycles in general. It actually inhibits lucid dreaming, or more precisely, the recall of dreams. I noticed this first hand with my DP. For a solid three months, I never remembered any dreams. It was like I was in a permanant THC-induced anxious state. All the effects of being stoned(for me anyway) were present with the DP/DR: dissociation, the inability to sustain solid thought patterns unrelated to anxiety, the blank stares and inability to focus,the weird sensory effects, the perception of myself(the "floating" feeling), the lapses in memeory and the inability to recall how exactly you got where you were, etc..

I wonder if THC did any long-term changes to my neurochemistry as it relates to REM sleep or my sleep cycle in general. I often described DP as being in a hypnotic/robotic/zombie-like state, almost like I never "woke" up. Anybody have any theories?


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## university girl

I just purchased a book called Marijuana and Madness - Psychiatry and Neurobiology from Amazon.com It was rather expensive but will definitely be worth it. This book released in 2004 summarizes the most recent research on marijuana and mental illness. After reading the book I hope to write a summary on it which I would then post on this site. I am so excited about this read.


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## amicrazy

i think when i had surgery in the summer before 7th grade and went under that is what did it to me. Nothing seemed that real after that, but i was young and really did not pay attention as much, it was kinda odd. It seemed to come and go, or at least my perception of it did. When i was more depressed, I had it more. More anxious, same thing. Smoking pot seemed to be fine, but i didnt start that until college. After a pot panic attack, it seemed to stick with me. I was way better at ignoring it then because i did not know what it was, just figured i was chronically tired, and because of that i could deal with it, and was not too concerned. Then about 7 months ago my grandmother died, that put me into a state of permanant DP. I thought it was depression at first, but it wasnt. It got worse as I stopped sleeping right when i went on internship later. Had to quit smoking pot cause of my internship for a month which was bad cause i had relied on that to sleep. After that I got to my internship and my sleeping pattern was even worse. In early February I started seeing and noticing floaters, was constantly tired, started seeing flashes. Went to an eye doctor cause i was convinced i had retinal tear and upon seeing that it was not the case that made it worse, went to a Dr. the next day and they took blood cause i was convinced i had some infection all came back fine. Insomnia continued to this day, with little sleep, ambien did not help only made me more tired the next day which fed the DP. Lately i have been worried about every single physical symptom i feel, heart pattern, neck and back problems (probably associated with bad posture, but i had myself convinced it was causing lack of bloodflow t othe brain) Worried about every neauroligal disease from tumor, epilepsy, rabies, mengingitus, and my health is fine, physically. I dunno, this is really starting to bother me cause i dont feel like anything matters, its all unreal and my dreams seem more important than reality. drinking seems to help.


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## skEwb

The first time I had dp severely I was up late trying to study for a test and drank the equivalent of 7 cups of coffee (the last time i smoked weed before this was a week before the dp and mushrooms a month earlier). I had full blast fear and tunnel vision along with trembling etc. It was really bad for about a year before I met someone that really helped me in my life. Anyway long story short, I have since experimented with marijuana and found the following effects:

Any 100% Indica strain relaxes me and cancels out any sort of DP feeling.
Any 50/50% Indica/Sativa or real good Kush (mostly indica) cancels DP out.
Any 80% or above Sativa induces an onset of rushes in my arms and overall anxiety/adrenaline feeling.

(Here in Los Angeles I have access to a dispensary that sells over 30 strains of marijuana, each one with color coding or percentage outlined if it is Indica/Sativa. This has allowed me to do my testing.)

I think it is really important to say that the Indica strains release more dopamine and give me a relaxed calmed down feeling whereas anything else that releases more norepinephrine like Sativas make it way worse. I've found that any sort of accelerant or emotional upset from others in my life induces it full blast. Any sort of relaxing or calming drug takes care of it.

Unfortunately the eating induced and the general laziness created by smoking weed has forced me to stop, because I was way too numb. Even though the DP was under control the new problems arose from the continued use and I have since stopped. The DP now only happens if I'm directly upset about something which usually is related to adrenaline release in your system.


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