# 9/11



## sonnl (Apr 15, 2009)

So its getting pretty close to the anniversary of 9/11, and they've been running a lot of commercials for special anniversary programs that will air either around or on that day, and its got me thinking. 
Every year I pretty much ignore the fact that it ever happened, I refuse to ever watch footage, clips, or anything related to that day, and now that these commercials are all in my face about it, its kinda hard to ignore. Im still not gonna watch though. 
Also sometimes I feel like I over dramatisize things a bit, I wasnt their, and no immediate family members where killed, but I did know quite a few people who were, I lost some family friends and family of friends, and being a New Yorker, its impossible to say it didn't hit close to home. 
I can remember all if it like it was yesterday too, I know exactly where I was when it happened, what I did that day, I remember watching the hole thing live on tv, not knowing if this country was under attack or what, not knowing where my parents where (they worked in the city).
I remember a teacher of mine telling me once, before this ever happened, that she, and most people who where around when it happened, will always remember exactly where they were when Kennedy was shot, and I figure that the same for this.
Anyone else here from NY that feels this way?


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## Mushishi (May 31, 2010)

People say, "We will never forget", as if they're saying something moral. I think people need to stop fearing it.



> "We could take a hundred more 9/11's to avoid one insight of our self-hatred."


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## EverDream (Dec 15, 2006)

I don't think you have to be a new yorker to remember where you have been that day. I remember clearly where I was that day and I think a lot of people in Israel remember too. For me it was at the start of the 9th grade. I was home with my family for some reason including my sister in law and niece that was then 2 months old. It was afternoon and we were watching the news at the TV. Then it moved live to New York and we were watching it in shock, just couldn't believe. I still remember the words of my sister in law: "I can't believe I brought a child into this world" (It was here first child. Now she has 3 children lol). I kept the newspaper of the day after and still have it.


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

I do not mean to be disrespectful by posting this, in fact the exact opposite.

In 2009 they made a new updated version of the internet film "Loose Change" which you might have heard of. It is called *Loose Change : An American Coup* and it was shown in theaters and on dvd.

http://www.loosechange911.com/

Here is a torrent for it.

http://btjunkie.org/torrent/Loose-Change-911-An-American-Coup-2009-PROPER-DVDRip-XviD-VoMiT/43585e6e32c3c27f19a58e7ddf65048c3b39a2ef4898

Peace and love.


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2010)

That will forever be burned in my memory and I've lived a fairly long life ... STILL 51. Oddly enough, my mother was dying in her Nursing Home and I didn't know it even happened until I drove home after she passed away at 2 a.m. on 9/12. It was 4 a.m. and every radio station was talking about it. I figured we were at war -- I didn't even have a TV as I had just moved out from CA.

There was "Pre-9/11" and "Post-9/11" -- America has not been the same since. We were attacked by terrorists on our own soil, a whole different ballgame. (yes, there was another bombing in '93? I believe at the WTC, but a far smaller scale (truck bomb) -- a "dry run" perhaps.)
This was the symbol of the all out Fundamentalist Jihad against the U.S. or rather captalism and all the "evil" the US is meant to stand for. What a perfect target.
I do NOT distrust everyday Muslims, I despise Fundamentalist ANYONE.

Inzom, I'm afraid you have another conspiracy theory there. Nope. This was real. As real as the Japanese attacking Pearl Harbor. I also knew a New Yorker who was in the middle of the whole mess, fleeing her office building in terror. And I have a friend who lost a number of friends/coworkers who were in a building across the street.

Anyone who says this was "faked" or a "conspiracy" is terribly ill-informed.

No country is safe from any form of Fundamentalist terrorism. We aren't the first, but are a prime target for those who despise the American way of life. Innocent people were killed.

See the documentary 9/11 by Jules and Gideon Naudet. Be certain it is the documentary by the NAUDET brothers. Frenchmen who were making a documentary on the topic of a firefighter and happened to be in the firestation that first responded to the WTC.
This was real. This was serious. And has changed the US forever.


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2010)

Not a New Yorker though I have visited many times -- also saw Ground Zero over a period of time, last time in 2007? It is not a pretty sight/wasn't. And you can be from any country in the world to have this burned in your memory. It is like any catastrophe we see in any other country -- but this was personal to Americans.


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

Faked? You cant fake 2 planes flying into two towers that later collapse, make building 7 collapse, part of the pentagon explode, and another supposed plane crash in a field. But you could manufacture it as a False Flag operation (Like the Gulf Of Tonkin incident that got USA into the Vietnam war under false pretences) to further your domestic and foreign policy. Please, watch the above film and then make up your own mind. It is not Conspiracy *theory* anymore, it is Conspiracy Fact.

I have the utmost respect for the American people, but you, like Swedes and most people, let your people of power get away with anything.


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2010)

Inzom said:


> Faked? You cant fake 2 planes flying into two towers that later collapse, make building 7 collapse, part of the pentagon explode, and another supposed plane crash in a field. But you could manufacture it as a False Flag operation (Like the Gulf Of Tonkin incident that got USA into the Vietnam war under false pretences) to further your domestic and foreign policy. Please, watch the above film and then make up your own mind. It is not Conspiracy *theory* anymore, it is Conspiracy Fact.
> 
> I have the utmost respect for the American people, but you, like Swedes and most people, let your people of power get away with anything.


I can't dignify anyone's belief that our government was involved in this. Inzom, we've been through this. You last said that income tax is not legal in the US. It is. It is in the Constitution. And your country is the most heavily taxed in the world (or up there .. that discussion is around here somewhere.)

This is back to saying JFK's assassination was a conspiracy, MLK, Bobby Kennedy ... why can't people simply see that there is hatred in this world, that we have very differing opinions, that not all humans care for others, we are imperfect.

Osama bin Laden declared a "Holy War" against the US. That is simply a fact. It continues to this day. It is against the West as a whole.

I find your comment insulting. There is corruption in politics in every country in this world and a helluva lot worse in other countries.

I can't go on with this discussion as it is on the same level as saying The Holocaust never occurred (and people DO believe that).

No, it is not fact. And we will simply have to agree to disagree. Meantime, this belongs in another discussion area.
Very sad, that this is how you see the world. Full of conspiracies. I have a rather dim view of humanity, but I also see us as being xenophobic, tribalist, full of false ideologies, etc.

Bad things happen. This wasn't "concocted" by our government. If it was, well then hundreds of thousands of people had to be involved in that. Per Ben Franklin, I think, "Three men can keep a secret if two of them are dead."

I won't go on.
We agree to disagree. This topic has been beaten to death. You can believe I am ignorant, but you didn't even know your own government taxes the Hell out of you. Nothing is for free. I'm sorry this just makes my blood boil. Certain topics.


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## S O L A R I S (Dec 24, 2009)

I think that post this tragedy, more than anytime before, people have come to realize that HUMANITY IS ONE! it shouldnt matter what you are, where you are from, what you believe in. We all want the same things, we all hurt, we all bleed, we are all vulnerable. It happened, people say it is fabricated, others get offended, well I like to tell everyone that people died that day and many lives got shattered for no reason at all. Even with the wars and tragedies happening to this day in every single part of the world, when does this all end? I question why and for what.

Humanity is one, and I pray for everyone hurting at this point in the world.


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

You write what I should have written SOLARIS.

Dreamer, I never indicated that I do not know that my country has among the highest taxes in the world. I still believe that the Federal Income Tax in the USA is illegal since the Federal Reserve is a privately owned bank.

While it has not been proven (but pretty damn close), I do believe that JFK was killed because he would not let himself be corrupted. He was the last true president of the united states.

9/11 was an inside job.

Just some questions that are addressed and/or answered in Loose Change:

Why did building 7 collapse at freefall speed just hours after the twin towers, without being hit by anything? Leaving nothing intact? Buildings dont do that just from fire.

It is standard procedure for the FAA/Norad/Whatever to launch fighterjets whenever a plane diverts off course for more than 15 minutes, why did this not happen on 9/11?

How could a pilot that was described by his American flight-trainer to not even be capable of flying a small one motor plane execute such an almost impossible manoeuvre, that seasoned pilots have been quoted describing as just that or similar.

One of the so called evidence against the hijackers was a passport that was found on the sidewalk close to ground zero, in perfect condition.

There is so much more. So much more.

Sensitive topic, I apologize to anyone taking offence. That is probably the normal first natural reaction to things like this.

My goal is not to offend, it is to educate.


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2010)

Inzom, you forgot our past discussion about taxation/the Federal Reserve etc. You express typical conspiracies about the topic that have been around forever or that have replaced older ones. You believe in conspiracy theories and I don't. Everything about the Federal Reserve and taxation in this country is Constitutional. If it weren't that would mean every citizen of this country is an idiot. What are the odds? I suppose every single journalist, politician, religious leader, doctor, lawyer, indian chief, illegal alien, legal alien, etc., etc., etc. is a total fool.

Secondly you have not looked at any SANE examination of the events surrounding 9/11. You ask someone to look at YOUR "proof" but will not consider any other examination of the events that occurred that day? Why? This is an argument that allows you to "win" no matter WHAT anyone else says, so it is moot. You win, correct or not.

I agree that SOLARIS has the best POV on this, but you said, "Not to offend anyone, but .... " and you offend everyone with your statements. 9/11 is a painful reality dealing with the conflict of two societies/two religions/two cultures and Fundamentalists willing to strap bombs to their own children to terrorize others -- do you recall THESE things? Not ALL Muslims. We have fundamentalists here in the US as you do in your country. And there are conspiracy theorists in every country -- that doesn't make them right.

*I take your statement as disrespect to those who died in the WTC. (Those in all the buildings, those in the airplanes, any who jumped to their deaths to escape the fires, those emergency personnel who were killed, on and on and on.) That is why I am angry. And as disrespectful for those in the US who care about the country, politics, and finding the truth.
And since it is impossible to have a rational conversation with someone who believes in conspiracies, we can't have a rational conversation. So, we're back to the fact that Americans, or rather at least I am a fool and an idiot.*

I defer to SOLARIS, and add that I am moved to ANGER, not fear, when I think of 9/11, and I feel great sadness every year when that date rolls around, and in answer to the OP, yes, it is burned in my memory as are many other events I lived through. I was a little girl in the 1960s and have vague memories of my parents' concern over the JFK assassination. I am moved to ANGER that certain individuals feel the need to dictate the morality of others and the direction of their culture -- and in this complex world that is very difficult -- we are not isolated, we live on a small globe with billions of others. Fear allows the terrorists the upper hand -- on 9/11 I feel sadness and anger for all who suffered. And I wish this world was free of so much less strife and misery. But as history shows, this has rarely occurred. Peace seems to exist in only certain isolated, small, homogenous groups.


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## EverDream (Dec 15, 2006)

I totally agree with Dreamer.

Inzom, I like you very much and think you are smart, funny and sensitive(at least most of the time), but your ideas and thinking, at least the way I see it, are sometimes too naive and critical. I can definatly see you are not living in Israel, not even in the USA. I understand Dreamer because I know how upseting it is to hear such things. You know, Israel isn't such a loved country thorughout the world. But fuck everyone, I'm proud being Israeli and Jewish. All of my grandmothers and grandfathers were in the holocaust so I heared a lot of stories since I was a kid about this topic, and it makes me so angry to hear people who say it never happened.

Maybe I'm too biased myself but it makes me angry too to read those kind of things.

Edit:
ARGGGG, my English sucks. I don't get it how is it there are people here that English isn't their first language and they write almost perfectly.


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## EverDream (Dec 15, 2006)

Dreamer* said:


> I defer to SOLARIS, and add that I am moved to ANGER, not fear, when I think of 9/11, and I feel great sadness every year when that date rolls around, and in answer to the OP, yes, it is burned in my memory as are many other events I lived through. I was a little girl in the 1960s and have vague memories of my parents' concern over the JFK assassination. I am moved to ANGER that certain individuals feel the need to dictate the morality of others and the direction of their culture -- and in this complex world that is very difficult -- we are not isolated, we live on a small globe with billions of others. Fear allows the terrorists the upper hand -- on 9/11 I feel sadness and anger for all who suffered. And I wish this world was free of so much less strife and misery. But as history shows, this has rarely occurred. Peace seems to exist in only certain isolated, small, homogenous groups.[/size]
> 
> [/font]


Well, today the peace talks started. I heard some of the speechs in TV. Maybe it will bring finally a lasting peace. Or not.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2010)

Ah, EverDream, yes, Israel. I hope for peace there. And there has been madness and mayhem since 1948 ... for so long. Worse than that ... it would seem that is the history of the Jewish people.
Now, here I will say I'm a "stupid American." Few of us are bilingual here -- the way those in other countries are. I give anyone here every ounce of respect for knowing English as well as their own language, and perhaps a third or fourth language. I struggle with a bit of French. I'm humiliated with that, LOL. Your English is excellent! Everyone here really from other countries.

Meantime, you brought this back to my mind.
I am not a spiritual person, but I find so much beauty in biblical writings and a lot of common sense in the OT.
Here is to peace. And peace of mind.

"By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, 
yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion. 
We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof. 
For there they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying,
Sing us one of the songs of Zion.
How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?"
- Psalm 137 -


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

Dreamer* said:


> Inzom, you forgot our past discussion about taxation/the Federal Reserve etc. You express typical conspiracies about the topic that have been around forever or that have replaced older ones. You believe in conspiracy theories and I don't. Everything about the Federal Reserve and taxation in this country is Constitutional. If it weren't that would mean every citizen of this country is an idiot. What are the odds? I suppose every single journalist, politician, religious leader, doctor, lawyer, indian chief, illegal alien, legal alien, etc., etc., etc. is a total fool.
> 
> Secondly you have not looked at any SANE examination of the events surrounding 9/11. You ask someone to look at YOUR "proof" but will not consider any other examination of the events that occurred that day? Why? This is an argument that allows you to "win" no matter WHAT anyone else says, so it is moot. You win, correct or not.
> 
> ...


_"you forgot our past discussion about taxation/the Federal Reserve etc."_ I address this in my very first sentence.

_"Secondly you have not looked at any SANE examination of the events surrounding 9/11. You ask someone to look at YOUR "proof" but will not consider any other examination of the events that occurred that day? Why? This is an argument that allows you to "win" no matter WHAT anyone else says, so it is moot. You win, correct or not."_ Oh believe you me I have read/watched the official reports. Have you read/watched the independent ones? Please do not make assumptions. Also I do not understand your logic. 
_
"I take your statement as disrespect to those who died in the WTC. (Those in all the buildings, those in the airplanes, any who jumped to their deaths to escape the fires, those emergency personnel who were killed, on and on and on.) That is why I am angry. And as disrespectful for those in the US who care about the country, politics, and finding the truth.
And since it is impossible to have a rational conversation with someone who believes in conspiracies, we can't have a rational conversation. So, we're back to the fact that Americans, or rather at least I am a fool and an idiot."_ Exposing the truth is what it is all about. And I do not think that you are stupid (Infact I consider you very intelligent) nor do I think that Americans are more stupid than anyone. We are all just people. How am I being disrespectful, part of exposing the truth is so that the victims can have closure. I guess you think it it more disrespectful to suggest that 9/11 was indeed an inside job than the ridiculous official story. Why was Iraq invaded?

And again, at this point in time even if mainstream media is ignoring it, it is not conspiracy theory it is conspiracy fact. Also what is with the "you do not believe in FOX NEWS and pay attention to plausable conspiracy theories, therefore you must be completely stupid and not worthy of conversation" attitude? One would think that someone with your life experience would understand a bit more about how the elite, the bankers, and the politicians do their work and why they do it?

Money and Power. I am ofcourse not saying that everyone is corrupt. That would be absurd. But the majority of the current ruling elite are.


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## BlueTank (Jun 2, 2010)

First thing I want to say - Remember people...	A lot of people have birthdays and annaversaries on 9/11.	Just saying.

I'm not watching jack shit. If you delve into it every year then where does it end? Meaning my grandma would be decades deep in watching "back, and to the left" over and over.... watching kennedys head blow apart. Cause of whatever reason.

We all have our thigns though. On dimebags death I listen to Pantera and Dimebag music all day... i've eve painted him several times on it while listening to the music. But I dont broadcast the shit around or sit and watch videos of him beign blown away. More of a celebration of his lifes work. I listen to albums from 10 years before he was shot. I paint him in action. Its a little different and more personal.

9/11. Ya can't forget it. But man if you only knew the REAL tragedies that go on. Fuck... stuff that makes 9/11 look like nothing. We've done FUCKED UP SHIT. Watch some vietnam war videos, kids running around covered in napalm..... "i'll never forget the day I watched a youtube video of a girl hit by napalm... and the day I saw goatsee... and TubGirl"

I went to bed.. As I was going to bed my roomate and friend told me there was tons of ants in the microwave.. tons. they hit the microwave hard. He cleaned it all out and everything was fine. but he just told me / warned me.	So I went immediatly to bed. The next day he woke me up "Dude you have ot see this!! now.. you ahve to see this!!!"	The first thing I thought was the microwave was covered in f'ing ants. Just crawling with them. I came around the corner into the kitchen semi asleep fully expecting to see a microwave full of ants and crap.... Came around the corner. Couple roomates standing in front of the TV and a big building has a bunch of debris and smoke coming out of the side of it...........

It was before the second one hit................................... Louis CK has an awesome 9/11 joke. Its... so wrong. but so.. just so good. so wrong. but so good. twisted.


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

*Link for bigger picture etc:* 




This is the second edition of Loose Change. The original has been watched/downloaded around 50 million times.


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## EverDream (Dec 15, 2006)

Dreamer* said:


> Ah, EverDream, yes, Israel. I hope for peace there. And there has been madness and mayhem since 1948 ... for so long. Worse than that ... it would seem that is the history of the Jewish people.
> Now, here I will say I'm a "stupid American." Few of us are bilingual here -- the way those in other countries are. I give anyone here every ounce of respect for knowing English as well as their own language, and perhaps a third or fourth language. I struggle with a bit of French. I'm humiliated with that, LOL. Your English is excellent! Everyone here really from other countries.
> 
> Meantime, you brought this back to my mind.
> ...


Wow, the psalm sound so cool in English. You didn't write all of psalm 137. 
Here it is in Hebrew:

תהילים פרק קלז

א עַל נַהֲרוֹת, בָּבֶל--שָׁם יָשַׁבְנוּ, גַּם-בָּכִינוּ: בְּזָכְרֵנוּ, אֶת-צִיּוֹן.
ב עַל-עֲרָבִים בְּתוֹכָהּ-- תָּלִינוּ, כִּנֹּרוֹתֵינוּ.
ג כִּי שָׁם שְׁאֵלוּנוּ שׁוֹבֵינוּ, דִּבְרֵי-שִׁיר-- וְתוֹלָלֵינוּ שִׂמְחָה:
שִׁירוּ לָנוּ, מִשִּׁיר צִיּוֹן.
ד אֵיךְ--נָשִׁיר אֶת-שִׁיר-יְהוָה: עַל, אַדְמַת נֵכָר.
ה אִם-אֶשְׁכָּחֵךְ יְרוּשָׁלִָם-- תִּשְׁכַּח יְמִינִי.
ו תִּדְבַּק-לְשׁוֹנִי, לְחִכִּי-- אִם-לֹא אֶזְכְּרֵכִי:
אִם-לֹא אַעֲלֶה, אֶת-יְרוּשָׁלִַם-- עַל, רֹאשׁ שִׂמְחָתִי.
ז זְכֹר יְהוָה, לִבְנֵי אֱדוֹם-- אֵת, יוֹם יְרוּשָׁלִָם:
הָאֹמְרִים, עָרוּ עָרוּ-- עַד, הַיְסוֹד בָּהּ.
ח בַּת-בָּבֶל, הַשְּׁדוּדָה:
אַשְׁרֵי שֶׁיְשַׁלֶּם-לָךְ-- אֶת-גְּמוּלֵךְ, שֶׁגָּמַלְתְּ לָנוּ.
ט אַשְׁרֵי, שֶׁיֹּאחֵז וְנִפֵּץ אֶת-עֹלָלַיִךְ-- אֶל-הַסָּלַע.​
By the way, it's funny you wrote this psalm cause not long ago I had a test with something similar to it (I learn in something like a religous uni where I had to take 7 classes of Judaism so not long ago I finally finished the 2 last ones). Also, part of this psalm is what you say among every jewish wedding.

I truly wish there will be peace one day but I don't think it will ever happen. Peace of mind? Maybe.








There is a quote I really like (not from the bible haha) by a band called "Pain Of Salvation":
*"Finding out at last the freedom is a state of mind... but still not knowing how to get along with this mankind"*


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## EverDream (Dec 15, 2006)

Another nice quote from the bible I think you'll like. Eyov wants to die lol

Eyov (Job) 10

Jb 10:1 "My soul is weary of my life. 
I will give free course to my complaint. 
I will speak in the bitterness of my soul.

Jb 10:2 I will tell God, 'Do not condemn me. 
Show me why you contend with me.

Jb 10:3 Is it good to you that you should oppress, 
that you should despise the work of your hands, 
and smile on the counsel of the wicked?

Jb 10:4 Do you have eyes of flesh? 
Or do you see as man sees?

Jb 10:5 Are your days as the days of mortals, 
or your years as man's years,

Jb 10:6 that you inquire after my iniquity, 
and search after my sin?

Jb 10:7 Although you know that I am not wicked, 
there is no one who can deliver out of your hand.

Jb 10:8 "'Your hands have framed me and fashioned me altogether, 
yet you destroy me.

Jb 10:9 Remember, I beg you, that you have fashioned me as clay. 
Will you bring me into dust again?

Jb 10:10 Haven't you poured me out like milk, 
and curdled me like cheese?

Jb 10:11 You have clothed me with skin and flesh, 
and knit me together with bones and sinews.

Jb 10:12 You have granted me life and loving kindness. 
Your visitation has preserved my spirit.

Jb 10:13 Yet you hid these things in your heart. 
I know that this is with you:

Jb 10:14 if I sin, then you mark me. 
You will not acquit me from my iniquity.

Jb 10:15 If I am wicked, woe to me. 
If I am righteous, I still shall not lift up my head, 
being filled with disgrace, 
and conscious of my affliction.

Jb 10:16 If my head is held high, you hunt me like a lion. 
Again you show yourself powerful to me.

Jb 10:17 You renew your witnesses against me, 
and increase your indignation on me. 
Changes and warfare are with me.

Jb 10:18 "'Why, then, have you brought me forth out of the womb? 
I wish I had given up the spirit, and no eye had seen me.

Jb 10:19 I should have been as though I had not been. 
I should have been carried from the womb to the grave.

Jb 10:20 Aren't my days few? 
Cease then. 
Leave me alone, that I may find a little comfort,

Jb 10:21 before I go where I shall not return from, 
to the land of darkness and of the shadow of death;

Jb 10:22 the land dark as midnight, 
of the shadow of death, 
without any order, 
where the light is as midnight.'"

Ok, now last one that I really like:

Keholet (Ecclesiastes) 1
קהלת‏

Westminster Leningrad Codex World English Bible‎ / Wiki English Translation‏ 
1 דִּבְרֵי֙ קֹהֶ֣לֶת בֶּן־דָּוִ֔ד מֶ֖לֶךְ בִּירוּשָׁלִָֽם׃ Eccl 1:1 ¶The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem:
[edit][history] 
2 הֲבֵ֤ל הֲבָלִים֙ אָמַ֣ר קֹהֶ֔לֶת הֲבֵ֥ל הֲבָלִ֖ים הַכֹּ֥ל הָֽבֶל׃ Eccl 1:2 ¶"Vanity of vanities," says the Preacher; "Vanity of vanities, all is vanity."
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3 מַה־יִּתְר֖וֹן לָֽאָדָ֑ם בְּכָל־עֲמָל֔וֹ שֶֽׁיַּעֲמֹ֖ל תַּ֥חַת הַשָּֽׁמֶשׁ׃ Eccl 1:3 What does man gain from all his labor in which he labors under the sun?
[edit][history] 
4 דּ֤וֹר הֹלֵךְ֙ וְד֣וֹר בָּ֔א וְהָאָ֖רֶץ לְעוֹלָ֥ם עֹמָֽדֶת׃ Eccl 1:4 One generation goes, and another generation comes; but the earth remains forever.
[edit][history] 
5 וְזָרַ֥ח הַשֶּׁ֖מֶשׁ וּבָ֣א הַשָּׁ֑מֶשׁ וְאֶ֨ל־מְקוֹמ֔וֹ שׁוֹאֵ֛ף זוֹרֵ֥חַֽ ה֖וּא שָֽׁם׃ Eccl 1:5 The sun also rises, and the sun goes down, and hurries to its place where it rises.
[edit][history] 
6 הוֹלֵךְ֙ אֶל־דָּר֔וֹם וְסוֹבֵ֖ב אֶל־צָפ֑וֹן סוֹבֵ֤ב ׀ סֹבֵב֙ הוֹלֵ֣ךְ הָר֔וּחַ וְעַל־סְבִיבֹתָ֖יו שָׁ֥ב הָרֽוּחַ׃ Eccl 1:6 The wind goes toward the south, and turns around to the north. It turns around continually as it goes, and the wind returns again to its courses.
[edit][history] 
7 כָּל־הַנְּחָלִים֙ הֹלְכִ֣ים אֶל־הַיָּ֔ם וְהַיָּ֖ם אֵינֶ֣נּוּ מָלֵ֑א אֶל־מְק֗וֹם שֶׁ֤הַנְּחָלִים֙ הֹֽלְכִ֔ים שָׁ֛ם הֵ֥ם שָׁבִ֖ים לָלָֽכֶת׃ Eccl 1:7 All the rivers run into the sea, yet the sea is not full. To the place where the rivers flow, there they flow again.
[edit][history] 
8 כָּל־הַדְּבָרִ֣ים יְגֵעִ֔ים לֹא־יוּכַ֥ל אִ֖ישׁ לְדַבֵּ֑ר לֹא־תִשְׂבַּ֥ע עַ֙יִן֙ לִרְא֔וֹת וְלֹא־תִמָּלֵ֥א אֹ֖זֶן מִשְּׁמֹֽעַ׃ Eccl 1:8 All things are full of weariness beyond uttering. The eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
[edit][history] 
9 מַה־שֶּֽׁהָיָה֙ ה֣וּא שֶׁיִּהְיֶ֔ה וּמַה־שֶׁנַּֽעֲשָׂ֔ה ה֖וּא שֶׁיֵּעָשֶׂ֑ה וְאֵ֥ין כָּל־חָדָ֖שׁ תַּ֥חַת הַשָּֽׁמֶשׁ׃ Eccl 1:9 That which has been is that which shall be; and that which has been done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
[edit][history] 
10 יֵ֥שׁ דָּבָ֛ר שֶׁיֹּאמַ֥ר רְאֵה־זֶ֖ה חָדָ֣שׁ ה֑וּא כְּבָר֙ הָיָ֣ה לְעֹֽלָמִ֔ים אֲשֶׁ֥ר הָיָ֖ה מִלְּפָנֵֽנוּ׃ Eccl 1:10 Is there a thing of which it may be said, "Behold, this is new?" It has been long ago, in the ages which were before us.
[edit][history] 
11 אֵ֥ין זִכְר֖וֹן לָרִאשֹׁנִ֑ים וְגַ֨ם לָאַחֲרֹנִ֜ים שֶׁיִּהְי֗וּ לֹֽא־יִהְיֶ֤ה לָהֶם֙ זִכָּר֔וֹן עִ֥ם שֶׁיִּהְי֖וּ לָאַחֲרֹנָֽה׃ פ Eccl 1:11 There is no memory of the former; neither shall there be any memory of the latter that are to come, among those that shall come after.
[edit][history] 
12 אֲנִ֣י קֹהֶ֗לֶת הָיִ֥יתִי מֶ֛לֶךְ עַל־יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל בִּירוּשָׁלִָֽם׃ Eccl 1:12 ¶I, the Preacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem.
[edit][history] 
13 וְנָתַ֣תִּי אֶת־לִבִּ֗י לִדְר֤וֹשׁ וְלָתוּר֙ בַּֽחָכְמָ֔ה עַ֛ל כָּל־אֲשֶׁ֥ר נַעֲשָׂ֖ה תַּ֣חַת הַשָּׁמָ֑יִם ה֣וּא ׀ עִנְיַ֣ן רָ֗ע נָתַ֧ן אֱלֹהִ֛ים לִבְנֵ֥י הָאָדָ֖ם לַעֲנ֥וֹת בּֽוֹ׃ Eccl 1:13 I applied my heart to seek and to search out by wisdom concerning all that is done under the sky. It is a heavy burden that God has given to the sons of men to be afflicted with.
[edit][history] 
14 רָאִ֙יתִי֙ אֶת־כָּל־הַֽמַּעֲשִׂ֔ים שֶֽׁנַּעֲשׂ֖וּ תַּ֣חַת הַשָּׁ֑מֶשׁ וְהִנֵּ֥ה הַכֹּ֛ל הֶ֖בֶל וּרְע֥וּת רֽוּחַ׃ Eccl 1:14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and behold, all is vanity and a chasing after wind.
[edit][history] 
15 מְעֻוָּ֖ת לֹא־יוּכַ֣ל לִתְקֹ֑ן וְחֶסְר֖וֹן לֹא־יוּכַ֥ל לְהִמָּנֽוֹת׃ Eccl 1:15 That which is crooked can't be made straight; and that which is lacking can't be counted.
[edit][history] 
16 דִּבַּ֨רְתִּי אֲנִ֤י עִם־לִבִּי֙ לֵאמֹ֔ר אֲנִ֗י הִנֵּ֨ה הִגְדַּ֤לְתִּי וְהוֹסַ֙פְתִּי֙ חָכְמָ֔ה עַ֛ל כָּל־אֲשֶׁר־הָיָ֥ה לְפָנַ֖י עַל־יְרוּשָׁלִָ֑ם וְלִבִּ֛י רָאָ֥ה הַרְבֵּ֖ה חָכְמָ֥ה וָדָֽעַת׃ Eccl 1:16 I said to myself, "Behold, I have obtained for myself great wisdom above all who were before me in Jerusalem. Yes, my heart has had great experience of wisdom and knowledge."
[edit][history] 
17 וָאֶתְּנָ֤ה לִבִּי֙ לָדַ֣עַת חָכְמָ֔ה וְדַ֥עַת הוֹלֵל֖וֹת וְשִׂכְל֑וּת יָדַ֕עְתִּי שֶׁגַּם־זֶ֥ה ה֖וּא רַעְי֥וֹן רֽוּחַ׃ Eccl 1:17 I applied my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly. I perceived that this also was a chasing after wind.
[edit][history] 
18 כִּ֛י בְּרֹ֥ב חָכְמָ֖ה רָב־כָּ֑עַס וְיוֹסִ֥יף דַּ֖עַת יוֹסִ֥יף מַכְאֽוֹב׃ Eccl 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief; and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow.
[edit][history]

What a mess haha. Nevermind.

By the way, how are you doing? You didn't write anything for a long time.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2010)

Ah, all of this is beautiful. Thank you. I wish I could read/speak Hebrew. I was not brought up in any religion, my mother was an atheist! If I could choose a religion to have been raised in I think it would be Judaism. And Job! LOL. Yes. In uni I studied "The Bible as Literature" in conjunction with Ancient History which included the time periods covered in the Bible. It was one of the most fascinating courses I ever took. I am also into a bit of Buddhism. "Living in the moment, living for now." A lot of that seems to fit in with Judaism as well.

Yup, I feel like Job a lot.

I only remember that portion of the psalm ... I'll have to go looked at my torn up old Bible (1976!!!!!) that I used for my class. I have underlined and marked it up so much I can't part with it.

I also like translations which are not "simplified" or ... I hate to say it "dumbed down." The words are so beautiful, they are poetry.

I also love great Master Chorale works -- the requiems, like Elijah, or Brahm's German Requiem, . Certain lines that are from various part of the Bible, Old and New testament ...

I love: _*"He watching over Israel, slumbers not nor sleeps."*_ That makes me cry, literally. It is so beautiful.

Well, I can only say to you. Yes, I hope for peace ... that is all we can do. Ah, and Yom Kippur is coming up as well!

In Shalom,
Sandy


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2010)

Ah, re: my health? I'm doing alright. It has gotten frightening and sad to write about it these days.
I have had my surgery, and I am sad. But I am alive!
I am terrified of chemotherapy. And I won't know more details about that for about 2 weeks.
I was thinking of starting a blog off of my website ... adding a "Blogspot" on the experience.
At least I know I'm not alone ... and here on this board I know I'm not alone.

Thank you for asking.


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## S O L A R I S (Dec 24, 2009)

I just wanted to post this, I believe that music can be such a powerful messenger and a way to get a word across.

I recall attending Madonna's last tour - Sticky & Sweet tour, and there was an interlude/medley called 'Get Stupid' which really sent shivers down my entire body. It was just so encouraging, optimistic, and in a way made me believe that we all can be a force of positive change in the world.

Live Version





Video Backdrop





As naive as it sounds, I do believe we can achieve Worldwide Peace and put an end to wars, injustices and poverty


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## Mushishi (May 31, 2010)

Dreamer* said:


> Anyone who says this was "faked" or a "conspiracy" is terribly ill-informed.


LOL


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2010)

Appreciate that poster SOLARIS. Downloaded it. Hope you don't mind. I want to believe one day that will all be true. I so want to.


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## Mushishi (May 31, 2010)

> "The wars and hate will never end for as long as the game continues to be played."


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2010)

From the way some people attack others in this thread you would wonder who wants peace and truth and kindness and goodness and empathy? 
This thread is simply a microcosm of "you're wrong, I'm right" and "let's NOT figure things out togehter but cause further rifts between groups."
Sad.
Blame "the system/the government/the elite" -- chose any word you want ... etc. ... which are all made up of individuals/people, not shape-shifting reptilian aliens. 
I mean people STILL believe Obama is a Muslim and was not born in the United States. I am so tired of this ignorance.

And what solution to any conspiracy theorists offer? There's gross misrepresentations of "fact," important statements made COMPLETELY out of context and re-edited to suit the filmmaker's agenda, and no solutions offered. Complain, accuse, but offer no suggestion on how to remedy the problem.
Ah well.
So is life.
I've been here a long time. Nothing is new. And how one can find it amusing is a mystery to me.


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

I want peace and truth and kindness and goodness and empathy above all else. That is a big part of what The Zeitgeist Movement is all about. You mention shapeshifting reptilian aliens which obviously is among the most extreme hilarious and laughable "conspiracy theories" out there, The fact that you even bring it up is so wrong on so many levels. You mention that "the system/the government/the elite" are all just people, this is also something that TZM addresses. TZM is ALL about understanding and solution. I should also point out that to my knowledge TZM has no affiliation with Dylan Avery or the other people behind Loose Change.

I dont really see a fight between cultures (Well I think you mean countries) in this thread.

If I could get you to watch *Zeitgeist : Addendum* @ 



 or read/watch *The Zeitgeist Movement : Orientation Presentation* @ 



 you would see where I am coming from and what my intentions and beliefs are. I would recommend starting with the Orientation Presentation.

But I know you wont watch any of those because you think it's about shapeshifting reptilian aliens, and it saddens me. Because there you will find real humanity and real solutions.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2010)

I already watched a good bit re: the Zeitgeist movement. _* We also had a discussion on that. A good while back, and I don't feel like searching for it, or for the discussion on the Federal Reserve/Taxes, etc.*_ I watched loose change, and I also read about both. I DO look at the other side. I read the news paper daily. I do not watch FOX news -- very rarely do I get news from TV or the internet. Her in Michigan I have access to Canadian TV as well as PBS which shows BBC and Al Jazeera, etc.

I read as many pieces of relevant information on a topic as I can. I also depend on my education, I have been to university undergrad and grad. I read books -- primary sources.

You can't depend on the internet for reliable information all of the time and one has to ask questions about ANY information from whatever source.

*Culture is defined as "the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group." Has nothing to do with the word country, this is where not knowing something does not help in a discussion. If we cannot communicate on a basic level, where you say I am not trying to look at both sides, well, then again, we agree to disagree.*

I can't discuss this anymore it is so frustrating.
The problem with conspiracy theorists here in the US who say that Obama is really a Muslim and not a US citizen ... well you could take them back in a time machine and have them relive Obama's birth and they STILL wouldn't believe it. I believe I am able to alter my views -- though we are all trapped in certain mind-sets influenced by the culture/home/country we were raised in.

It is unbearable to sit through Loose Change. It is so poorly done, so biased, words taken out of context.

Believe whatever you wish. I am also entitled to my beliefs. I wish to seek the truth. And I do not attack other countries for their "failures" ...

So, yes, America should realize that 9/11 was a conspiracy perpetrated by our government, we have completely missed this, and then we should do ......... what?
Just curious. Why don't those who are so informed -- the millions of them -- do something -- rescue us from our ignorance?

I have to stop this or my head will explode.
Life is too short. And it mystifies me why there is laughter and cruelty in a discussion over 9/11. And no, I don't cry over it every year, but it is a huge event in our history.


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## S O L A R I S (Dec 24, 2009)

Dreamer
It will happen one day. I believe more so as the younger generation interact more with other cultures and educate themselves about the world around them, they will be a voice of change. Take me for example, I am Arab, and a Muslim, and I had the greatest opportunity to study, live and work in the states. And The people I met over there were from all walks of life, they became my family, so welcoming and just amazing people. I love them all desperately. Were all the same! This is what frustrates me sometimes is because I never see differences between people, just the similarities. I believe we should all celebrate our differences and unique backgrounds because there is so so so much richness in what we all have to offer the world. There's so much that we can learn from each other.

They key is to respect and cherish everyones values and beliefs and accept them for what they are. Because beneath all of that, we are more similar than anything. One thing also that I think is true for everyone here in the forum, is that having this disorder were all familiar with how it is to be judged, blamed, and singled out and even feared by society, and I would never want to do the same to others around me.

I believe in the best for all nations, and I have a feeling that it is possible to break all barriers and overcome all hurdles.


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## EverDream (Dec 15, 2006)

Dreamer* said:


> Ah, all of this is beautiful. Thank you. I wish I could read/speak Hebrew. I was not brought up in any religion, my mother was an atheist! If I could choose a religion to have been raised in I think it would be Judaism. And Job! LOL. Yes. In uni I studied "The Bible as Literature" in conjunction with Ancient History which included the time periods covered in the Bible. It was one of the most fascinating courses I ever took. I am also into a bit of Buddhism. "Living in the moment, living for now." A lot of that seems to fit in with Judaism as well.
> 
> Yup, I feel like Job a lot.
> 
> ...


Hey, thanks Sandy. I writing you this half dead actually. I feel so fucking bad. lol
If you want more info or quotes, I'll be happy to assit. Even though I'm not religous anymore I have to admit I like the bible because it's true, it's like poetry.

Rosh Hashana is next week, and then the week after it's You Kippur. Last yesr I kept the day and fast and everything. But today I'm so pissed off that I'm not sure I'll keep it. Why should I?

שלום גם לך! הלוואי שיום אחד כולנו נרגיש טוב ונבריא מכל מכאוב נפשי ופיזי.
וכן, שלא נסבול יותר מהדבר הארור הזה שנקרא דפרסונליזציה.​
Let see you read this lol


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## EverDream (Dec 15, 2006)

Dreamer* said:


> Ah, re: my health? I'm doing alright. It has gotten frightening and sad to write about it these days.
> I have had my surgery, and I am sad. But I am alive!
> I am terrified of chemotherapy. And I won't know more details about that for about 2 weeks.
> I was thinking of starting a blog off of my website ... adding a "Blogspot" on the experience.
> ...


Yeah, you are not alone. You also had this post on the other thread. You should keep write there. 
I'm with you here (well, maybe not right now cause Iv'e did some stupid thing myself) but both us will be better.


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## EverDream (Dec 15, 2006)

S O L A R I S said:


> I just wanted to post this, I believe that music can be such a powerful messenger and a way to get a word across.
> 
> I recall attending Madonna's last tour - Sticky & Sweet tour, and there was an interlude/medley called 'Get Stupid' which really sent shivers down my entire body. It was just so encouraging, optimistic, and in a way made me believe that we all can be a force of positive change in the world.
> 
> ...


This is beautiful. But I can't see the word Peace.

Edit: Ok, now I see it. It was hard for me to see because of the crusive.


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## EverDream (Dec 15, 2006)

SOLARIS, this reminds of a stupid funny song called *"Shalom, Salaam, Peace"*





LOL

I also can't resist myself from putting two briliant songs of this band- HaDag Nahash:

*"The Sticker Song"* ( 



 )

*"Numbers"* (


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2010)

S O L A R I S said:


> Dreamer
> It will happen one day. I believe more so as the younger generation interact more with other cultures and educate themselves about the world around them, they will be a voice of change. Take me for example, I am Arab, and a Muslim, and I had the greatest opportunity to study, live and work in the states. And The people I met over there were from all walks of life, they became my family, so welcoming and just amazing people. I love them all desperately. Were all the same! This is what frustrates me sometimes is because I never see differences between people, just the similarities. I believe we should all celebrate our differences and unique backgrounds because there is so so so much richness in what we all have to offer the world. There's so much that we can learn from each other.
> 
> They key is to respect and cherish everyones values and beliefs and accept them for what they are. Because beneath all of that, we are more similar than anything. One thing also that I think is true for everyone here in the forum, is that having this disorder were all familiar with how it is to be judged, blamed, and singled out and even feared by society, and I would never want to do the same to others around me.
> ...


*SOLARIS*, I really like this. And what is amazing is that YOU aren't offended by any comments made in this thread. It is amazing that you are Arab and have been to the US. What I love about the US and other countries (say Canada) is that they are a melting pot of different cultures. The dream of the United States was to "open our doors" to this cultural variation in hopes of being "one" with great diversity. I BELIEVE in that. I guess I have to believe there is hope for peace here as we have this crazy internet where a Jewish individual, a Muslim individual, a Swedish individual and a US Citizen who is essentially German/Irish descent (but of no religion) can have a discussion.

That's what matters.

And *EverDream*, yes two holidays ahead, I'm sorry. Sorry you feel awful. Believe me, there is many a day I feel very much like Job, and am terribly crabby. I don't want to be that way.
As always I hope people find Peace of MIND here, if nothing else, so we can work towards making the world a bit better.
L,
D


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## EverDream (Dec 15, 2006)

Dreamer* said:


> *SOLARIS*, I really like this. And what is amazing is that YOU aren't offended by any comments made in this thread. It is amazing that you are Arab and have been to the US. What I love about the US and other countries (say Canada) is that they are a melting pot of different cultures. The dream of the United States was to "open our doors" to this cultural variation in hopes of being "one" with great diversity. I BELIEVE in that. I guess I have to believe there is hope for peace here as we have this crazy internet where a Jewish individual, a Muslim individual, a Swedish individual and a US Citizen who is essentially German/Irish descent (but of no religion) can have a discussion.
> 
> That's what matters.
> 
> ...


You are amazing. I like you very much.

One of the reasons I like this fourm so much is that there are people from all over the world that are truly caring for one another. It's priceless. We can bring the peace









Actually there are 3 holidays ahead. It makes everything a lot harder for me.


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)




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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

Whoa this thread got heavily moderated. I was just gonna ask *Sonnl* why he had that thread about PTSD and 9/11 removed. I recall reading some remarks in that thread that went like "You know this thread is just gonna be about how and why 9/11 happened and stuff right?" and then the thread dissapeared. Well, From what I can see I am the only one on the forum that openly questions the official story and I wasnt even going to post in the thread.

PTSD is serious business and 9/11 and the wars it made possible have caused countless cases of PTSD so I think the thread would have been worth keeping.


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## sonnl (Apr 15, 2009)

Inzom said:


> Whoa this thread got heavily moderated. I was just gonna ask *Sonnl* why he had that thread about PTSD and 9/11 removed. I recall reading some remarks in that thread that went like "You know this thread is just gonna be about how and why 9/11 happened and stuff right?" and then the thread dissapeared. Well, From what I can see I am the only one on the forum that openly questions the official story and I wasnt even going to post in the thread.
> 
> PTSD is serious business and 9/11 and the wars it made possible have caused countless cases of PTSD so I think the thread would have been worth keeping.


I wrote that on another topic, I deleted my stuff pn this one because it got way to heated and honestly despite what anyone believes about who was responsible, the main issue was that people actually did die, and it was a pretty serious deal.


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

Yes ofcourse. I just mentioned your thread in this thread because I could not find it anymore.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2010)

Inzom said:


> Yes ofcourse. I just mentioned your thread in this thread because I could not find it anymore.


Inzom, *the topic wasn't deleted, it simply took a turn away from the question at hand and became a political debate.  Such a debate fits in "That's Life"* as a spiritual *DEBATE belongs in THAT section* vs. the *spiritual SUPPORT section* -- the Moderators and Administrators of the Board took a LONG time to divide up these forums -- at the REQUEST OF MEMBERS. I think there is yet another post in the main forum that has headed in that direction. A political discussion doesn't belong in the main forum which is strictly about DP. Had it stayed on topic it wouldn't have been moved.

Also, this Board is here for our benefit, but it belongs to individuals who have the discretion to keep it helpful to DP sufferers.

My posts over the years have been moved and I can see why every time. The same is true on other WELL-moderated boards of all topics.

I'm just grateful this forum is here. It has existed in one incarnation or another since 1997? It wouldn't be here if a lot of people over the years didn't work hard to keep it here.

Cheers,
D


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

I was just looking for a thread that I thought *Sonnl* had created but it was infact *MobiusX*.


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