# "Realize and Personalize": The Political Debate



## Mollusk (Nov 12, 2005)

I excerpted this because because offtopic posts get messy. Here is the conversation thus far.



1A said:


> miss_starling said:
> 
> 
> > I've noticed (at university mainly), that even if a sensitive person is right and a normal person is wrong, the crowd will always favour the normal person. It's like a form of discrimination.
> ...


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miss_starling said:


> Well, I think that reason and logical should prevail. I don't think that it should be about people prevailing but unfortunately it always is.
> 
> The US and UK governments are good examples of people prevailing over logic. Why are Bush and Blair still in power?
> 
> It is not necessarily the people with the most beneficial attitudes that win support.


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## Mollusk (Nov 12, 2005)

1A said:


> miss_starling said:
> 
> 
> > Why are Bush and Blair still in power?
> ...


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## Mollusk (Nov 12, 2005)

miss_starling said:


> It's nothing personal A1, but the problem with many Americans is that all they care about is America.
> 
> I don't dismiss the autrocity of the Twin Towers, but there are autrocities going on every single day in other parts of the world as a direct result of the neglect and abuse bestowed on the world by the American and British governments.
> 
> ...


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## Mollusk (Nov 12, 2005)

1A said:


> miss_starling said:
> 
> 
> > It's nothing personal A1, but the problem with many Americans is that all they care about _is_ America.
> ...


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

I am glad this was moved because I wanted to comment but not on that old thread.



> It is not necessarily the people with the most beneficial attitudes that win support.


Exactly!

This is the reason that I have nothing to do with politics at all ever!
There is no point in getting involved because both sides are evil.
I will go further then what miss_starling wrote and I will say that it is usually the evil people and the evil ideas that win support in this world. Anyone that has read about Jesus should understand this fact. Anything that is good in this world is quickly killed or destroyed. Both sides of politics have this problem. The leaders of the right and the leaders of the left are just as evil as one another. None of them care about anyone except themselves and there own power. Greed is the only objective of any politics in this country and in most others. And if it is not greed then it is false religion that is the facter. The wars the death the greed the insanity, I am against all of it and I don't understand why everyone else gets so caught up in politics at all.

Miss_starling also said something about people in America not careing about people in other countries and I know exactly what she is talking about. I have lived in America my whole life and I notice this fact myself. We great Americans usually only talk about how things are going to affect us and we usually don't care about how things will affect the rest of the world. We are the biggest hypocrites in the world and that is why everyone hates us. Yes we give money to people but so what, the money we give back is just part of the money that we stole in the first place. Look at what happened in Rwanda. Where was the mighty U.S. then? There is no oil and no money in Rwanda and it has no strategic value to us so what did we do? We let all them people die without doing one thing to help them. I agree with Miss_starling and that is why I am moving to Hawaii. Although Hawaii is still part of the U.S., I don't find that same attitude in people out there that I see here in Chicagoland. I love living in this country because it is a nice place to live compaired to many other places but I don't like the bad reputation that we have with the whole world. I also don't like hearing about how great we are anymore. America will fall soon just like the Romans fell and the Greeks and the Persions the Babylonians and the Egyptians before us. America is not as great as most Americans think. I am sorry if I angered all my fellow Americans but this is the truth. Just go out and take a tour of the world and you will realize just how bad of a reputation we actually have in the world. Even in Hawaii the locals call the mainlanders stupid haoles because of the way that we act in the mainland. We are all just way to puffed up with pride in this country and it makes me sick sometimes. I am also sick of the race problem in this country and I hate hearing about how the white race is so great all the time. I am white but that don't mean that I am great, to the contrary I am actually somewhat ashamed of my skin color sometimes.

Sorry for ranting but Miss_starling just hit an issue that I think about a lot while living amongst my great fellow white Americans. I am just sick of the evil attitude I see all around me.

Don't think that what I was just doing was a political rant but it is just the way I feel about most of the idividuals that live around me. I don't care at all about the politics, I just can't stand the attitude.


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## Mollusk (Nov 12, 2005)

Oh yeah, i forgot to bring my post from the old thread:

Bush is one of the worst presidents in history. If he was going to take out a horrible dictatorship then there are many to choose from. There are countries in South America, Africa and Asia that have much worse quality of life and live under terrible fascists. Why didn't the U.S. go in with full force when there was mass genocide in Darfur. Iraq did need a regime change, but i wouldn't put it at the top of the list of countries that do. The benefits of oil and the appeasement of other Middle Eastern (oil holding) regimes seems to be a large part of incentive for war. Why didn't we send 130,000 into Afganistan where the real terrorist threat has been growing. afganistan is a mess and should have been the real focus. It has been marginalized because it has no economy besides drugs and has no easy fix for the tribal warfare. We basically half as*ed the real problem and created a whole new generation of terrorist in a new country. We made a whole new battlezone where terrorists have found a new source of enraged muslim youth. They now have an area to create unrest and attack more U.S. troops. Bush runs on fear like the cold war era anti-communists. He claims that we must go out and seek those that are dedicated to malicously attacking us because of our principles.

This cartoon sums up how i feel about bush's crusade against these "evildoers" that are bent on attacking us because of our freedom:
http://www.danzigercartoons.com/cmp/2005/danziger2585.html

I do think that we should be a positive pressence in the world, but we poorly planned this war and have messed it up in many ways. There are many positive things going on and now that we're in i think we must be dedicated to helping them until the country is stable and has a decent infrastructure.

On other issues bush also sucks balls. He passed a "Clean Air Act" that let more lenient emissions standards pass. He walked out on the kyoto (spelling?) meeting about reducing emissions. He has censored all scientific reports about global warming. I saw it on 60 minutes a couple weeks back. All reports about the decaying ice caps have been edited. Wherever there was hard evidence showing the rate of melt it is blacked out and a comment like "speculative" is written. The man who oversaw all these documents and edited them was a former oil lobbyist who went back to working for his oil company.

Bush passed his medicare bill (which is meant to solely benefit drug companies) that caused confusion and the failure to deliver prescriptions to seniors who depended on them. Emergency action had to be taken to fix this.

Geez there have been countless indigtment hearings and scandals that should have caused terrible unrest. A few of his former white house members have left in disgust and gone on telivison to tell about his horrible methods. One(maybe Bob Woodward?) told about the talk inside the whitehouse and how Iraq was on Bush's agenda from day one. He told his staff to look for reasons to invade, this problem didn't just arise.

Man the wiretapping is a gross misuse of power. He needs to be held accountable for this one. I hope the bill that Russ Feingold is pushing to "censure" (hold accountable) Bush passes. We can't let this go. the patriot act that somehow keeps passing through congress is also a terrible overstepping by the government. I mean library records of U.S. citizens....wow.

There are also higher-up's who were responsible for the lax and unclear standards of prisoner treatment which led to abu-graib. I forgot who, but some lawyer appointed by bush in the white house wrote the guidelines and purposefully left them quite puzzling with many torturous methods being left acceptable. Rumsfeld was probably connected too, i remember hearing something.

God there are so many things about this administration that leave an unsavory taste in my mouth. They are experts at dodging responsibility and spinning information. Sorry for the long kind of vaige rants. Thanks though 1A. You have reignighted my Bush-hating passion. I think i will go out and get the hard facts so i can bash him with concrete evidence and numbers instead of memories of news stories i have heard.


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

1A said:


> Here are some photos of her and Iraqi's that you won't see in the mainstream media. Of course the MSM (mainstream media) blames everything on the US and won't ever show you the full story.


Unless you're talking about the mainstream media in Qatar, i don't see how you can assert this. For some reason, neo-cons always like to paint themselves as the ones under attack by the "liberal media". Mainstream media in the U.S. nowadays (and i mean within the last few months) seems, finally and at long last, to be a little, tiny, insy teensy weensy bit more critical of the Bush administration, but anytime from around post 9/11 to late 2005, it has been overwhelmingly supportive or, at least, uncritical of Republican platforms and policies.


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

urbn said:


> On other issues bush also sucks balls. He passed a "Clean Air Act" that let more lenient emissions standards pass. He walked out on the kyoto (spelling?) meeting about reducing emissions. He has censored all scientific reports about global warming. I saw it on 60 minutes a couple weeks back. All reports about the decaying ice caps have been edited. Wherever there was hard evidence showing the rate of melt it is blacked out and a comment like "speculative" is written. The man who oversaw all these documents and edited them was a former oil lobbyist who went back to working for his oil company.


Word.


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

1A said:


> They're giving millions of people a chance to flourish, a chance they didn't have under Saddam.
> 
> My philosophy is that if tens of thousands have to die over several years period, so that MANY MILLLIONS can eventually thrive, then you have to accept the deaths of those tens of thousands. Otherwise, Saddam will kill tens of thousands each year, himself, while others live their entire lives in poverty.


This is an oversimplification though Jeff. How many people will die as a result of other governments (Russia, China, India, Pakistsan, or many others) using the U.S. precedent of defying the United Nations and acting unilaterally against a sovereign nation? This action alone has set us back decades in terms of international peace and cooperation and will undoubtedly cost far more lives globally than would ever have perished under Saddam. By the way, the future that faces the Iraqi people is far from one peppered with rose pedals. A nation consumed in tribal feuding or swept up by fundamentalist lunacy seems far more likely than a nice cozy oasis of democracy in the middle of the desert.

s.


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## Mollusk (Nov 12, 2005)

sebastian said:


> Unless you're talking about the mainstream media in Qatar, i don't see how you can assert this. For some reason, neo-cons always like to paint themselves as the ones under attack by the "liberal media". Mainstream media in the U.S. nowadays (and i mean within the last few months) seems, finally and at long last, to be a little, tiny, insy teensy weensy bit more critical of the Bush administration, but anytime from around post 9/11 to late 2005, it has been overwhelmingly supportive or, at least, uncritical of Republican platforms and policies.


You are dead on sebastian. After 9/11 it became unpatriotic to criticize the administation or government. We we supposed to come together as Americans, but unfortunately it became come together behind the Bush agenda.



sebastian said:


> This is an oversimplification though Jeff. How many people will die as a result of other governments (Russia, China, India, Pakistsan, or many others) using the U.S. precedent of defying the United Nations and acting unilaterally against a sovereign nation? This action alone has set us back decades in terms of international peace and cooperation and will undoubtedly cost far more lives globally than would ever have perished under Saddam. By the way, the future that faces the Iraqi people is far from one peppered with rose pedals. A nation consumed in tribal feuding or swept up by fundamentalist lunacy seems far more likely than a nice cozy oasis of democracy in the middle of the desert.


You are right again Sebastian. To say that we are going to fix it Iraq and it is just a matter of commitment to this cause is an oversimplification. You put it well.

I had hoped the topic would move here, but much of the debate is still in the other topic....

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.7340.html


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## comfortably numb (Mar 6, 2006)

I just thought id throw my 2 cents in here for the hell of it.

1A seems to be fully indoctrinated in the liberals=bad concept. The whole liberal bashing thing going on down in the US is just another attempt to shift the blame from the neo-cons.

The liberal bashing in the US now bares a striking resemblence to Mccarthyism. Bush couldnt find any communists to blame so instead he blames the liberals. It would be funny if it wasent so sad at the same time.

The liberal bashing done by the neo-cons and there right wing media outlets such as fox is utterly retarded. Im suprised they dont blame their car troubles on the liberals too. Must be that goddamn liberal radiator overheating again.

Its only been very recently that the media in the US has started to question Bush and that is only because his stupidity has reached epic proportions that knowone could ignore.

People like 1A and the other good little unquestioning neo-cons dont even think before they lay blame. They always know exactly who is the cause of all their troubles. They also forget that the US actually supported saddam during the iran-iraq war. It was only when he decided to invade kuwait that they thought of him as a problem. Before that he was just a good and useful thug.

Orthodoxy is truely unconsciousness in the case of the neo-cons.


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

Urbn,

Sorry, i'm going to lock this thread so we can keep the discussion all in one area. I'm going to copy and paste all comments made on here, over on the other one. There is a way to split the topic but i can't seem to append it to another subject so i think this is the only way.

s.


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## sebastian (Aug 11, 2004)

Actually, it's too damn arduous to copy and paste all that on my dial-up connection. I won't lock this thread yet if anyone else wants to paste their stuff on the other thread, but i urge all of you to post anything further on the other thread so as to keep everything together.

Urbn, it was a good idea to split up the topic but next time it might be better if you PM a moderator to do it just so a clean break can be made from where the discussion diverges.


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## Mollusk (Nov 12, 2005)

sebastian said:


> Urbn, it was a good idea to split up the topic but next time it might be better if you PM a moderator to do it just so a clean break can be made from where the discussion diverges.


Alright man, good to know. It pretty much seems that the conversation has migrated back. I probably should have pmed someone i just seem to have made things messy.


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