# current theorys



## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

I thought I would comprise all of my most recent theorys for easer access and for people here to go over and discuss.

the dopamine, acetylcholine theory. There is mounting evidence that these two neurochemicals might be low in us. Time and time again scicentific reserch has showed us that Dopamine a fundamental for us feeling pleasure, reward, to feel motivated, to have a healthy libido, for attenial and short term memory processes.
I and almost every one I have talked to with DP that has tried adderall have got temperary but big improvments in many symtoms from this stimulent, which many works to raise dopamine.
acetylcholine, is nesary for lng term memory and memory recall. acetylcholine boosters are generaly the first line treatment in alzhimerz desise and many of these patients also complain of weird visual phenomenon.

Over production of dynorphan theory. Dynorphan is the endogenius neuropeptide that activates K opioid receptors.
when these receptors are activated they stop the transmission of dopamine and cause DP/DR like symtoms. Dynorphan has been shown to rise in both high anxiety states and from anministration of THC to people.

Calcium channels theory, high anxiety, THC, PCP and lyme disease have all been known to close calcium channels. all of these things have caused DP in people.It is nesary for the calcium channels to open when they are needed to let calcium ions flow into neurons to help relese neurochemicals. with out an action potential can not compleate it's tranmission accross a synaptic gap.

nitric oxide theory, nitric oxide is known to raise in the brain during extreamly stressful or anxiety provoking events in our lives, some neuro scientists even think it might be the main cause for panic attacts. nitric oxide adminstration to people has shown to induce DP like symtoms. Mice with a nitric oxide producing gene deleation showed significantly less effects to THC then one's that did not.

REM sleep theory. It would seem that many people with DP don't get much REM sleep or when they do it is rebounded rem, meaning that for along time the mind doesn't get it but then one night sling shots it with a ton of it for catch up. Possible imbalences in this could lead us to feeling Dreamy or in our semi conscious state we are in every day.


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## girlie (Apr 1, 2010)

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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

*How else the dp/dr could vanish all in a sudden, when I feel people are there for me and then come back, when I begin doubting again the safety of being with them?*

If an abuse history is the primary driver of the condition, this makes perfect sense. Elsewhere you talked about a rough childhood and even the possibility of DID, so the main solution is probably through psychological methods and feeling safe with close friends.

One problem in nailing this down is that both DP and DR are very broad categories. There must be at least a dozen different types in this forum alone.

I seem alone (but probably not actually) in having DP from traumatic childhood and DR from a recent chemical injury. Each are completely different yet there are some treads of similarity because they both involve the function of synapses - how they are wired and how well they are performing.

As far as a magic bullet - much can be accomplished. But there is an imbalance of reductionism and of cooperation between medical disciplines. Health care is as highly fragmented as the controversial diagnosis of DID.

Reductionism is a great tool. One imbalance is not properly subdividing the definitions of both DP and DR. Another imbalance is looking for a single solution - not seeing the forest because of the trees.

Medical knowledge has expanded way beyond the days of the country doctor that made house calls. But in its expansion, control has been lost. Perspective is now funneled into narrow passageways that must be predefined - no allowance for individualization.

So we keep trying. And individuals will report successes along the way. As far as developing treatment protocols, it will depend on groups working together and sharing just as many on the forum try to do.


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## girlie (Apr 1, 2010)

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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

girlie said:


> I am not familiar with the other things you stated, but about dopamine theory - if dp/dr was only dopamine related, I should be cured while being manic, as bipolar mania is connected with extremely high dopamine levels. However, this does not happen, my dp/dr is just the same in mania.
> 
> I am indeed become quite doubtful toward all those brain chemical related theories, as I have two sudden experiences, when the invisible veil of dp/dr disappeared _completely_ for about 2-3 seconds, then coming back. Both times I believed 100 % I have people in my life who understand and "see" me, are 100 % comfortable to be with. Thus I am pretty sure at least my dp/dr is wholly psychological defense mechanism toward a world, in which the only person I can really trust is myself - with the underlining thought that being with other people is never safe.
> 
> How else the dp/dr could vanish _all in a sudden_, when I feel people are there for me and then come back, when I begin doubting again the safety of being with them?


Hi girlie, I'm very interested in your case dp/dr with bipolar disorder can you tell me exactly how the DP symtoms change if at all when your in your manic state? I wonder this because most people with DP have no motivation or conetion to things they once enjoyed, all things they once liked seem distant to them, they feel no emotion. If I'm not mistaken in the manic state your full of energy and want to do a million things at once and flip between being really happy or angry. right?


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

In terms of REM sleep from a psychological view point there are a number of psychologists who believe that the REM stage is the emotional processing stage of sleep so if you have an emotional conflict which is perceived as unresolvable it makes sense that there might be a problem with this part of your sleep as your brain is trying and failing to process some stuck emotional content. For example there is evidence that people with PTSD have more fragmented REM sleep http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/159/10/1696 and an approach called Human Givens psychology believes that disturbed REM sleep is a major cause of depression as depressed people have more REM sleep and its more intense so they get tired of their sleep rather than refreshed so wake up depressed and exhausted http://www.hgi.org.uk/archive/familytherapy2.html. It seems to me that we have some sort of emotional trauma or conflict which then disturbs our REM sleep which then in turn disturbs our waking state


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## flat (Jun 18, 2006)

So if we are producing too much dynorphin are there any substances that can shut down production or at least block it?

One way of increasing acetylcholine is inhibiting the enzyme acetylcholinesterase which breaks it down (similar to what a MAO inhibitor does). Huperzine-A is a chemical found in chinese club moss that does exactly that. There have been studies that show huperazine-A helps in dementia and alzheimers patients which have lowered acetylcholine levels. Not sure if it raises dopamine levels though.

So if we have too much nitric oxide (NO)in our brains then are there any substances that can help reduce NO levels or block it's effect?

Disturbed REM sleep sounds interesting but I see no way of correcting this unless solving the underlying psychological reasons. But I also doubt that our brains are constantly trying to work through our problems during REM sleep each and every night. Surely some dreams, or probably the majority of them, are totally unrelated to our dp. But I once tried an interesting experiment. I set alarm clocks to wake me up at 90 minute intervals to prevent me from entering REM sleep one night and when I woke up in the morning I felt remarkedly good and a lot less dp'd. Of course that's pretty hard to do every night. Also I read that during REM sleep we produce no serotonin. So maybe if we have disturbed REM sleep we are producing TOO much serotonin during the night. But that should make us feel good right?...unless we are experiencing a type of serotonic overload during the day.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

flat said:


> So if we are producing too much dynorphin are there any substances that can shut down production or at least block it?
> 
> *there are two drugs that block it natrexone and naloxone however these antagonists are not very specific for the k opiod receptor and end up blocking all of them accross the board by doing this they could actually do more harm then good. as b endorphen and it's "U" receptor is asossiated with a feelings of plesure, relaxtion and happiness (think runners high) The only others out there are for expermental perposes only.*
> 
> ...


*That's interesting I did not know that disturbances in rem sleep affect seritonin, it is very possible to have an over abundace of serotonin and it leads to nothing good. despite how so many people want to jack serotonins popularty to fame for being the wonder neurotransmitter for everything this just isn't the case. to high of seritonin levels depleate dopamine and throw your balence way out wack, it can make you emotionally numb, have decreased sex drive even some forms of cognitive impairment. If it's way to high it can lead to serotonin syndrom and there have even been serotonin receptors implicated in the cause of DP.*


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## Emir (Nov 20, 2010)

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## flat (Jun 18, 2006)

"None that I know of at the moment but you could try cutting back on foods that contain arginine"

Just found out that the amino acid L-lysine may help reduce nitric oxide since it's supposed to be like a natural opposite of arginine.


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## scienceguy (Jan 8, 2011)

flat said:


> "None that I know of at the moment but you could try cutting back on foods that contain arginine"
> 
> Just found out that the amino acid L-lysine may help reduce nitric oxide since it's supposed to be like a natural opposite of arginine.


Yea upon doing some quick resesrch I think your right, it doesn't block it directly but it preventents the body from absorbing it. I don't think diet changes will help much though because it apears for almost every food that has lysine in it they also have arginine to verying levals. A lysine supplemnt would probably be required.


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## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

ive noticed adderall makes me act normal too. Cant take it though cause its a felony if you get caught with one, not worth going to prison for years just so you can fit into society,


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

sunyata samsara said:


> ive noticed adderall makes me act normal too. Cant take it though cause its a felony if you get caught with one, not worth going to prison for years just so you can fit into society,


Why not get a prescription?


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2011)

Quick observation why DP/DR could come and go, sometimes for very brief periods of time ... think of deja-vu or jamais-vu. Both of these experiences -- perceptual distortions, also occur in the population at large.

For the majority, the experience comes on briefly and goes away. For some it is disturbing, for others they don't think twice about it.
For a minority, these perceptual distortions can become chronic and extremely disturbing and intense, and to the best of my understanding they are not understood.

We are discussing something about the concept of SELF here, SELF in the present, a whole Self ... the nature of consciousness. I see nothing simple in understanding this.

I recommend again, Dr. Sierra's book, Dr. Ramachandran's book, books by Oliver Sacks about perceptual distortions. Ramachandran and Sacks are neurologists. (see my profile for the books).

I don't believe this is simply "chemical" -- I have no idea what's going on. But understanding perceptual glitches in the brain such as deja-vu could help us understand DP/DR at some point.

The brain is not a "perfectly functioning organ" any more than any other.

*What is the "purpose" of deja-vu, or jamais-vu, etc? Can't really find even an evolutionary purpose as one might find for DP/DR as an overactive fight/flight response. And why to many mentally healthy people experience brief DP/DR and are not feeling threatened or "hiding from something", etc.? Why does it not frighten them, or linger? And why do some have no clue what either deja-vu feels like, not to mention DP/DR?*


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## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Visual Dude said:


> Why not get a prescription?


Dont have insurance. Cant afford legal drugs and going to a psychiatrist, i make less than minimum wage.


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

sunyata samsara said:


> Dont have insurance. Cant afford legal drugs and going to a psychiatrist, i make less than minimum wage.


A recurring theme - only well people can afford health care, which they don't need, _tilt_

Don't know what state (or country) you live it, but often there are various groups that can help. Sorry that you are suffering like this.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2011)

> A recurring theme - only well people can afford health care, which they don't need, tilt
> 
> Don't know what state (or country) you live it, but often there are various groups that can help. Sorry that you are suffering like this.


Agreed.

If you could get a doctor to write you a prescription (but said doctor would have to justify why he/she was giving you the med) sometimes you can get free samples, or in a worse case scenario, I know of stories here in the US where a drug company will provide a medication for free.

I have a friend, who because of her husband's multiple heart attacks, and then a stroke (all before age 45), they are $350,000 in medical debt. They have to declare bankruptcy. I have no clue why she has such a good attitude. BUT, her husband needed a medication that would have cost them $500 a month and some pharmaceutical company is giving them the medication for free. You have to be near death to get a deal like that ... oh and ready to declare bankruptcy.

Honestly, if I didn't have my medication, I would have taken my own life 25 years ago.
Everyone is different though.

And working PT is excellent. I have trouble working as a volunteer. And I have worked many jobs in my life.
I really have no joy in my life. Never really did.


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## never_giving_up (Jun 23, 2010)

Dreamer* said:


> I really have no joy in my life. Never really did.


That is very sad to hear


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## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Visual Dude said:


> A recurring theme - only well people can afford health care, which they don't need, _tilt_
> 
> Don't know what state (or country) you live it, but often there are various groups that can help. Sorry that you are suffering like this.


I dont mind it, i dont see it as suffering its just life. I prefer not to do drugs to help my condition. Most people use drugs to get along in life but i try to get along without help. There was a time when i would of wanted drugs to help out but im trying to get past that. I once had to take medication for a year cause my brain got just plain wired wrong. Way too much stress.


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## shogun (May 15, 2010)

flat said:


> So if we are producing too much dynorphin are there any substances that can shut down production or at least block it?


There's a new drug i just found out about today called JDTic, it's the first orally active selective kappa opoid antagonist.

Here's what i found



> Contemporary medical orthodoxy classifies drug-induced bliss as an "adverse side-effect" of opioid analgesics - even in the terminally ill. Yet we could all do with having our native endorphin systems enriched. Later this century and beyond, the customised site-selective successors to today's opioid drugs may play a critical role in promoting emotional super-health. For example, one of the most exciting research breakthroughs in recent years has been the synthesis of JDTic. JDTic exerts a sustained anti-anxiety and mood-brightening effect: it is the first orally active selective kappa opioid antagonist. Kappa is the "ugly" opioid receptor whose endogenous ligand is dynorphin. The dynorphin/kappa-opioid receptor system is implicated in the unpleasant states of mind caused by chronic uncontrolled stress. Repeated use of cocaine, heroin, ethyl alcohol and other euphoriant drugs induces a compensatory up-regulation of the dynorphin/kappa-opioid receptor system too, causing anxiety, anhedonia and dysphoria. Whereas mu receptor agonist opioids induce euphoria by enhancing dopamine release in the nucleus accumbens, activation of kappa opioid receptors inhibits dopamine release from the mesolimbic terminals. This deficiency is subjectively unpleasant because the mesolimbic dopamine system regulates hedonic tone and the capacity to experience (and anticipate) happiness. Dopamine also modulates the threshold of pain perception. As of 2009, controlled clinical trials of JDTic or its analogues in humans have yet to begin. But results in non-human "animal models" are encouraging.


here's some links on it

http://www.opioids.com/jdtic/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JDTic

The reason why i've highlighted too much dynorphin as a possible cause of DP is because dynorphin is the bodies main hormone that triggers the K opoid receptors and alot of the K opioid agonists have dissociative and DP like effects (PCP,Ketamine,Salvia) agonise the kappa receptor.

here's a link on it if you feel up to reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_Opioid_receptor

Hopefully JDTic goes into trials soon so we can see it's effects on humans.


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

sunyata samsara said:


> I dont mind it, i dont see it as suffering its just life. I prefer not to do drugs to help my condition. Most people use drugs to get along in life but i try to get along without help. There was a time when i would of wanted drugs to help out but im trying to get past that. I once had to take medication for a year cause my brain got just plain wired wrong. Way too much stress.


What was the medication you were taking?


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## sunyata samsara (Feb 18, 2011)

Visual Dude said:


> What was the medication you were taking?


I had muscle spasms 95% of the time so i wanted something i could take for a year to rewire my brain. I went to the doctor and told them to give me Zoloft since they dont know shit. I knew benzos would work but didnt want to get addicted. Zoloft took 2 weeks to work and stopped the muscle spasms.


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

sunyata samsara said:


> I had muscle spasms 95% of the time so i wanted something i could take for a year to rewire my brain. I went to the doctor and told them to give me Zoloft since they dont know shit. I knew benzos would work but didnt want to get addicted. Zoloft took 2 weeks to work and stopped the muscle spasms.


Interesting ... muscle spasms are supposed to be a side-effect of Zoloft


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## californian (Jul 24, 2006)

shogun said:


> There's a new drug i just found out about today called JDTic, it's the first orally active selective kappa opoid antagonist.
> 
> Here's what i found
> 
> ...


I know you posted this a while ago, but I just found this today, which is good news (as I am one who definitely believes in the endogenous opioid theory surrounding many forms of DP/DR (def. the version I have anyway):

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01431586

It's the first human study of JDTic. Hopefully it turns out to be safe, effective, and something that can bring people a lot of relief soon. Plus, if it does work, it will speed up research on the other kappa-antagonists which will undoubtedly be a good thing as well.


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## californian (Jul 24, 2006)

californian said:


> I know you posted this a while ago, but I just found this today, which is good news (as I am one who definitely believes in the endogenous opioid theory surrounding many forms of DP/DR (def. the version I have anyway):
> 
> http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01431586
> 
> It's the first human study of JDTic. Hopefully it turns out to be safe, effective, and something that can bring people a lot of relief soon. Plus, if it does work, it will speed up research on the other kappa-antagonists which will undoubtedly be a good thing as well.


Or not, I just saw that the study had been cancelled due to "adverse events." Suck.


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