# Narcissistic Disturbances and self-monitoring



## Guest (Jul 17, 2005)

It's important to know before beginning any discussion of Narcissism that the word is VERY over-used and you can't even get agreement among the psych professionals as to what it means, so confusion is guaranteed to abound. EVERYone on this earth has narcissistic traits and there is nothing wrong with that. It's healthy narcissism i.e., high self-esteem, etc.

When I use the word on this Board, I am usually talking about a narcissistic DISTURBANCE, or disorder. That does not mean that the person loves him/herself too much, but exactly the opposite. *Narcissistic Disturbances arise when the person is SO fragile, and has such dark and horrible self-hatred at their core, that they need to create a false SELF image, a tricky way of convincing themselves that they are very powerful and/or special all as ways of hiding from how bad they really feel about themselves underneath.*

(also, please know there is so much more to all this, lol. I'm just giving you a TINY gist of the concepts here)

Anyway, people with narcissistic disorders often experience DP states. The reason is multifold, but here are SOME of the things we do in our thinking that sets the stage for DP and obsessive anxiety states:

We usually have two (or more) very distinct images of ourselves. We might be full of self-hate or self-anger, but underneath that, we feel very superior to most people. We have higher standards, expect more, demand more, settle for less, etc. In that self-righteous position, we are convinced that if we just didn't have (i) these terrible symptoms, or (ii) this terrible situation at home, or (any other unacceptable predicament) then we would be able to BE as extraordinary as we think we are.

We are constantly holding onto what we think we COULD be (one day, someday, if only, when x happens, etc.). And *we DEFINE ourselves by our Potential, not by our reality.*
We are very reactive to SHAME. We become enraged easily over feeling embarrassed or ashamed...and we turn it against ourselves, we become very self-hating as if we failed ourselves and now deserve to suffer.

In order to cope with the big discrepancy between what we ARE and what we WANT TO BE, we have to really do some fancy juggling. And what we juggle is reality. We are constantly living half-in and half-out of reality, but we probably didn't see that until we had a breakdown. Then the DP experience really shows us.

One of the most crippling traits of this type of personality is that we have *great difficulty NOT knowing *something. We hate learning we want to already KNOW. We hate having to work TOWARDS anything we think if we know what where we want to be, we should already BE there. We hate uncertainty if there is doubt or confusion, we invent an answer and convince ourselves we DO know, even though we may change our minds a hundred times, each time we are positive we KNOW.

We need other people desperately and we hate that fact so much, we *pretend we need nobody. *Our goal is to be totally self-sufficient, totally self-contained. And anytime the other person in a relationship with us shows their own DISTINCT differences, we freak out. We want total merger or no relationship at all. Total agreement or no discussion at all. Black and white. Nothing in between.

We tend to adore someone or think they're worthless.

We tend to feel on top of the world, or at the bottom of hell.

We refuse to learn how to live in the middle-ground and to ENDURE living even when we're not feeling great. We EXPECT to feel great, and if we don't, we are so enraged that we shut down as if going on strike, lol

And at the core of all this is the feeling/fear that we are nothing. Literally, totally nothing.

When someone doubts that they are even a human, or worth anything, they tend to create symptoms that require them to constantly CHECK themselves (for health problems, for sanity, for a variety of am I feeling real right now? reasons)

*We are TOO focused on the sense of self because of a deep and massive terror that we really are nothing. *

And in the mix, we tend to become *hypochondriacs *(imaging we have all kinds of illnesses, or thinking our heart is about to stop, or that we can't breathe if we're not observing our own breathing, etc.)

We tend to dissociate (or have *dp/dr*) because we are constantly scanning the environment and ourselves for reality checks.

We tend to do very little with our lives, because we are waiting for something waiting for ourselves to feel good enough or powerful enough to be able to instantly achieve what we think we want. We refuse to take steps, to build..we are so fragile that the first disappointment makes us not even want the goal anymore. We are so afraid we can't cope with reality that we live inside our imaginations as consolation.

Make any sense?

My point here (for the 2 or 3 people still reading, lol) is that NO amount of self-observation or self-obsession is going to cure the symptoms, because they were created by the mind for exactly that reason to DISTRACT you and make you watch self as a life activity.

IF a person recognizes him/herself in this thread, and they decide to do some therapy, the goal is to get to know yourself and take a look at some of the deeper fears and misguided defenses that got you into this mess. Recovery and/or working through all this is NOT quick. It takes years, guys.these personality types are VERY hard to treat because we are stubborn and resentful and controlling. And underneath, we're terrified that we will find some Self that we cannot live with. Talking helps, therapy helps. And in the meantime, force yourself to STOP the self-monitoring and the unrealistic expectations and life should get easier.


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2005)

Sound familiar?


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## Essex (Jul 10, 2005)

Yep thats me. Hey gotta laught :lol: could be worse, I could be dead :lol:


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

Good post.

Whilst I can see myself in much of that description, thinking about it I really don't think I "fit" the category properly.

Sure, I might think that I can become good or proficient at something, but I use that belief to work towards the goal, rather than in opposition to it. I'm also not very "black or white", thinking wise.

There's one thing that you didn't mention here, Janine, that I always see written with descriptions of narcissistic traits: a lack of empathy. I don't know whether I'm right or wrong in attributing that to narcissism, but if I am that's another thing that I and others here don't seem to suffer from.

What I'm saying is, people, although you may see yourself in many of these descriptions, be careful. You may be looking for things that "match" and ignoring what does not. I for one don't believe that not everyone here needs long-term therapy to overcome personality "disturbances" at all, it can be much simpler than that and was for me.

Enough of my rambling. I might post something more coherent when I'm less tired.


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2005)

Janine wrote:

Make any sense?

Nicon writes:
yes!

can we have some more on this?


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2005)

Tricky tricky concept - "empathy". The mainstream info you'll read (websites, etc.) on Narcissism Personality are very misleading. I'm talking about a disturbance within SELF (that's what makes it "narcissism" not the fact that the person is self-centered, etc.). The "I am so great" beliefs are COVERS (desperately and rigidly held covers) for very painful fears that lurk constantly underneath.

Folks with these kinds of personality structures CAN appear highly empathic, but it's "empathy with a twist" - we are highly alert to any signs and signals from other people because we're always on the lookout for rejection, surprise, the unknown, domination, etc. We "read' people (or try to constantly) as a form of self-protection. I actually had my analyst tell me once that I "had sonar!" lol....

But empathy at its core implies a kind of SHARED experience that we tend to not believe exists. We can be compassionate and believe WE can feel or understand what the other person feels, but when the tables are turned, we assume that NOBODY else on the earth has ever felt precisely what we feel. We feel constantly on the outside of normal human experience (either imagining we feel more/better/deeper, or worse/more fragile/weaker).

So when we, in turn, are empathizing with someone else, we are trying to put ourselves in that person's POSITION, but we are very resistant to trying to fathom that the other person is MORE than a "situation" - he is also a PERSON - with his own set of feelings and thoughts and "take" on things. We tend to see other people as "like we are" or "not at all like me" - all relating to ME, one way or another. That's not self-centered in a "aren't I fantastic?" lol....but because we are constantly needing to refer BACK TO SELf, as if to reaffirm its existence. Even before/without DP, we can't just BE. We don't just presume Self, we monitor it, control it, watch it, love it, hate it, reject it, glorify it....we live through the experience of being a self WHILE KNOWING we are living and experiencing as that self. "Regular" people would have no clue what this means, and would probably say I'm nuts, lol

Thank you for enjoying today's narcissism lecture, lol...(also, I'm not trying to convince ANYone that they are a narcissistically structured personality. I'm writing a book on nar and DP and this is just a very pronounced interest of mine right now, and it's applicable to mySELF. I am NOT contending that everyone with DP is of this personality type. I'm just exploring the connection more in depth).

All comments, ideas certainly more than welcome!


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## Essex (Jul 10, 2005)

I am a confirmed "narcisstic" personality type and your discription is spot on. I use to have shame surrending my diagnoises until I researched it and found discriptions similar to your own. Alice Miller also talks about it well too. I have read Sam Varkins stuff on it but am way passed that type of thinking on the subject. On a last note, there is hope of recovery!


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2005)

Yep, spot on yourself. I suspect Vaknin is a wounded lover of some narcissistic or something close to it - he's got a very personal vendetta going - clear as glass.

And Alice Miller is a very good writer to read on the subject, esp. *Drama of the Gifted Child.*


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

I am tired to scan my narcisism right now, but I have a big load of things to say and ask.


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2005)

http://samvak.tripod.com/msla.html


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

I will definitely buy the book once it's out. This is a really interesting topic for me. A few more points.

First, what actually gives rise to these kind of personality structures? Is it something that "just happens" through a set of circumstancial events in life producing a certain outlook? Or is it rooted in childhood, in how one's parents related to the child when they were young, and how that upbringing was divergent with the reality of the world "out there"?

Second, if this type of personality isn't giving rise to symptoms, and I'm sure in many cases it doesn't, is there anything "wrong" or even "undesirable" about it? Is it objectively "worse" to have these traits, are they always maladaptive? Or do they have there advantages?

Also, my (limited) knowledge of narcissism doesn't really stem from any knowledge of Psychology, but more from my readings around History and especially psychological evaluations of historical figures and the like. It seems that a *lot* of famous and interesting figures have had these traits. The most obvious one is Hitler, who in nearly every psychological discussion I've read gets dubbed as having strong narcissistic features: not seeing other people as "real" in the sense that he was; feeling he had a sense of "destiny", that he was somehow "special"; yet at the same time wanting to shut out anyone or anything that threatened his idealized view of himself, as if he had some deep-rooted and underlying fear that he really wasn't what he made himself out to be.

Aside from the "good" and "bad" of narcissistic traits, it seems that they can produce some very "interesting" people.


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

Monkeydust, I hope you don't mind my jumping in here:

"First, what actually gives rise to these kind of personality structures? Is it something that "just happens" through a set of circumstancial events in life producing a certain outlook? Or is it rooted in childhood, in how one's parents related to the child when they were young, and how that upbringing was divergent with the reality of the world "out there"? "

TT: You seem to be asking if we pattern our relationships with the world (including ourselves) on the way significant people in our early life related to us. Am I correct?

"Second, if this type of personality isn't giving rise to symptoms, and I'm sure in many cases it doesn't, is there anything "wrong" or even "undesirable" about it? Is it objectively "worse" to have these traits, are they always maladaptive? Or do they have there advantages? "

TT: Wouldn't a person who never accomplishes anything and wants success without having to work hard have a pretty miserable time of it?


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

> TT: You seem to be asking if we pattern our relationships with the world (including ourselves) on the way significant people in our early life related to us. Am I correct?


Yeah, sort of - although I'm not so much asking about "relationships with the world" as I am about specific narcissistic personalities/traits.



> TT: Wouldn't a person who never accomplishes anything and wants success without having to work hard have a pretty miserable time of it?


Yes.

But the mistake is to assume that all people with narcissistic traits and a tendency to "sit back" knowing their "great" will actually do this. Many, I think most, probably don't. I'm pretty sure the majority are able to lead "normal" or "good" lives.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2005)

You're BOTH wrong, and insensitive to boot. Narcissists (that is SUCH a misnomer) don't just sit back and do nothing and expect everything, nor are they able to live "good (going by your definition, that probably means happy)" lives. They are driven to succeed and to accomplish as much as they can without completely destroying themselves, and even then sometimes they cross that limit. But, they're never satisfied with what they accomplish.

Alexander the Great is the perfect example. He wasn't satisfied with conquering just Greece or Persia; he was compelled to conquer all of the known world.

Yours truly,
XEPER

P.S. I'm being ignored, aren't I?


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

That's the problem with labels, don't you think? I think what I was talking about was what Janine called "narcissistic disorders," (ND) where as one could have narcissistic personality without having a disorder.

Perhaps that's the difference we're talking about.

A person with a ND might feel he didn't want to work hard to achieve what he wanted, but a narcissistic personality who could work hard might do just fine. Maybe that's Monkeydust's point.

But labels are just handles we use for communication. There's a spectrum of all human behavior and it's just for convenience of communication that we use these labels. I don't think they help people find an accurate location for themselves on the spectrum, and I wonder if we should be thinking about labels at all.

Why not think about, "Can I do anything about how I feel?" or something similar. Know what I mean, Xeper?


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

XEPER said:


> I'm being ignored, aren't I?


If the other persons don't want to comment it doesn't mean they ignore you. But maybe they do. Why is this bad? It doesn't mean that you are wrong or that you don't deserve attention. Because I think that this is what you feel by saying "ignore" (that you are wrong or that you don't deserve attention). In conversations, just state your opinion, if noone else likes to talk about it, then.. "oh well". It happens to me a lot


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

Yeah, I see what you're getting at Sojourner. But then I also think that the majority of people here who are suffering problems partially due to narcissistic personality _traits_ don't have them to the extent as to have a "personality disorder" (I don't like that term anyway).

XEPER, sorry if I got it all wrong here. I'll make it clear that I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to Psychology, so I'm just speculating, trying my best and what have you.

I can't say whether you're ddescription is the "right" one because I don't know enough about it. However I can say that I "fit" that description - working hard but never being satisfied with enough - almost perfectly.

And you're not being ignored lol.


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

> You're BOTH wrong, and insensitive to boot


well if someone wanted to say that to me I would ignore him too...


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2005)

Just go to this site, it has all the information you could ever want about NPD (although, it, too, is somewhat biased against narcissists, so take care to sift through it to filter out the opinions):

http://samvak.tripod.com/msla.html

Yours truly,
XEPER

P.S. That ignoring thing was a joke, and I'm sorry if I offended you.


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

monkeydust: ever studied Kaiser Wilhelm 2? that guy is more interesting than hitler re: narcissism IMO...you should check him out


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

xeper that link is awesome


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

Xeper,

Now do you see why I said in Chat that day that I thought you were joking a lot of the time.


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

person3 said:


> monkeydust: ever studied Kaiser Wilhelm 2? that guy is more interesting than hitler re: narcissism IMO...you should check him out


Yeah, a little. He seemed to have a bit of an inferiority complex as well.

Incidentally, I agree that the link was awesome. I had a quick read of some of it and it's very imformative. I also don't think I come under the narcissism category anymore.


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

Monkeydust said:


> Yeah, I see what you're getting at Sojourner. But then I also think that the majority of people here who are suffering problems partially due to narcissistic personality _traits_ don't have them to the extent as to have a "personality disorder" (I don't like that term anyway).


I agree with you completely. I don't think people with narcissistic personality disorder would ever even dream about being on a site like this and certainly wouldn't say the things that people say here. But of course I could be wrong.

Labels are so yucky, but the docs have to use them so people don't have to suffer by having to pay for medical care and drugs after they've paid for health insurance. Really, the labelling racket is all about helping the little guy in the end, I think. If none of these labels for "disorders" existed, more people would not get treated at all than already are not getting treated.

But these labels are not definitions of who we are; that's why there are multiple diagnoses -- it's all on a single spectrum, just like electromagnetic radiation. It's ONE dimension of a person that is represented as a spectrum of behaviors, feelings, and so forth. There is no such thing as "narcissistic disorder" that is analogous to "measles" or "bacterial infection" or "overhydration" or anything else.



Monkeydust said:


> XEPER, sorry if I got it all wrong here. I'll make it clear that I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to Psychology, so I'm just speculating, trying my best and what have you.
> 
> I can't say whether you're ddescription is the "right" one because I don't know enough about it. However I can say that I "fit" that description - working hard but never being satisfied with enough - almost perfectly.
> 
> And you're not being ignored lol.


But that's not narcissistic -- that's normal striving for excellence!


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## Essex (Jul 10, 2005)

I am narcisstic and so much want to be better. I detest my self centreness and everything else that goes with this disorder, so there are a few of us that are geniune and want to recover and have the bollocks to admit to it.


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

Sojourner, my gripe isn't about the fact that there are lables or even about the number that there are; it's about what form the labels take.

I particulalrly despise the term "personality disorder" because it is to pretend that psychiatry is in the position to determine what is a "good" or "bad" personality in objective terms. I don't think it is, nor do I think anyone is. I'd much rather label them "personality types", since it doesn't imply there's anything inherently "wrong" with being a certain way.


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

*The good (depression), the bad (narcisism), and the ugly (depersonalization)*. I am sacrificing part of the truth to make it look "cinematic"  ("The good the bad and ugly" is a movie).

Now, I should get serious...

...I am feeling disconnected. I am been hit pretty bad, can't think very clearly. I don't feel anxiety (at least I think so), but it's hard to be "crystal clear" right now (or at least approach it well enought). But I think I can handle it; with "backup" systems of cource. I appologize about the gigantic post and for not beeing very clean-writen.

*"The good": Depression*

I might be depressed sometimes. It's not important thought, if I kill DP/DR (or whatever this thing that looks like it) and Narcisism, I believe that Depression will go away too.

*"The bad": Narcisism*

*1.* My narcisism comprises of fantasies ("I am on this place and...") and thoughts ("I am important due to...").

*2.* I started daydreaming from when I was a kid. It was nice. I am imagining incidents and situations in which:
- I am important
- I do things that I find important
- I get good critics for something I have done
- People admire me or my actions

*3.* When I think that something that I have done is worthy, or when someone gives me compliment or achnowledgement (even if I really deserve it) then my sentiments go overwhelming and I need a lot of effort in order not to tear or even cry. Growling is my best defense for the tear/cry thing. The compliment or achnowledgement required to get me into this state is really small. An example:
- Someone asks me to do something, but I am unable due to certain conditions which he didn't included in his estimation. As a result, I am unable to complete the task he requested. He tells me that I can't think [properly]. I don't mind. Then he discovers that it was his mistake and sais "I must be a bigger fool than I said about you". The tearing is unavoidable.
- Janine Baker replied once "The more GRAND the daily fantasies of our own victory, revenge, success, omnipotence, you can just guarantee that beneath all that 'oh, I am so wonderful and powerful!' daydreaming is a person who thinks they are lower than a snail". That brought the unavoidable tearing too, but then I said "steady on Brainsilece".
- There are more examples available, but I think you get the point. This is why I ask everybody in the chat room not to make compliments/crediting/achknowledgements to me (even when "it's due" or when "I deserve it"). It just paralyzes me. The compliments/crediting/achknowledgements keep spinning inside my mind. Of cource, when a narcisist denies compliments/crediting/achknowledgements, he could just do it in order to get more. I am not sure if this is the case in me though.

*4.* My narcisism can so perfectly masquerade itself behind humbleness. In fact humbleness (sometimes) acts as an empowering mechanism for narcisism. Maybe I am having truly humble moments which are irrelative to this. Who knows? (not me). Examples:
- You see an epic war movie and you imagine yourself inside the movie. Perhaps self-sacrifice in the line of duty beeing involved. This is not humble, this is narcisistic.

*5.* When the sorrow becomes enjoyable, then I know that's narcisism that comes in. When I feel wronged and mistaken, then self-achknowledgement comes. But a need for something (anything!) other than the mind's standstill could be involved in this: it's like "I better feel sad than feeling nothing at all!". And sadness is a powerful sentiment. I guess you are wandering why I am saying "I bette feel happy than nothing at". It's just that I feel guilty when I am happy. I don't know why. Here is a totaly humiliative example:
- Once uppon a time (1999) I liked a girl. So I got his really weird fantasy that she died and I was kissing her just beafore she "leves". Memories like these make me feel disgrace for beeing me. I mean, how sick a mind needs to be to think of this. Notice: while I was thinking that I will probably get a slack from other members of this board about this actually beeing a remantic though, I just fell into "Pitty empowers my narcism" (read next) and I was unable to keep thinking of this as a disgraceful thought. Go figure.

*6.* Pitty empowers my narcisism. I can't explain this better than that phrase. When other people feel sorry for me, my narcisism hits the ceiling (meaning it goes up).

*7.* I try to "turture" or place myself low in the scale (scale: like we say "how much do you worth as a person and an entity?"). This must be an narcisism-empowering mechanism. Janine Baker, replied to me once: "In that post I made, I chose to use the word "Narcissisism" VERY sparingly because I could see that if I had jumped right in with "oh, this is clearly narcisissitic" you would have used that label as a weapon against yourself". I believe that it's the same issue, something like a reverse psychology.

*8.* Narcisism has become embodied inside my thoughts, and the narcisistic thoughts come so naturally that it's hard even detecting it. I am trying. I don't know how hard though. I have imaginary self-crediting and self-achnowledgemtn without noticing it sometimes. It usually takes me seconds or minutes to notice that made narcisistic imaginations. Sometimes it might take me hours or even days. Is a narcisist able to detect that he did narcisist thoughts a few days ago, or this is just an illusion I have?. Maybe the effort to dispose Narcisism is but an expression of Narcisism itself! Maybe I should take another kind of action. Maybe I shouldn't fight the beast, but let it starve. I don't know. "Could use some help. Could use it now!" Hehe  just kidding, I just liked that movie quote.

*9.* I think that I was able to notice the self-crediting and self-achnowledgement thoughts a long time ago (let's say when I was 12) but I think that I didn't took them as something bad. Or I just ignored my suspision that they are bad. I thought that they were just "gendle day dreaming". Comments are yours.

*10.* I create theatricals. Little (or big) scenes that I direct and play. I repeat quotes that I like from movies or video/computer games (the ending of Half-Life is one of my favourites). I suspect that I like to impersonate characters that look confident about themselves and their position to the world.

*11.* In order to like something on me (how do I look, or personality stuff), I had, many times, tried to locate the same things on people I admired: actors, poeters, etc.

*12.* Side effects... My "defense" mechanism has acted and has destroyed a large part of my judgement right now. I have sticked to the idea of "it's ok, you have low self-esteem, that's why you are thinking those things". Apparently, this is not the case. Help me with this if you can.

*13.* Heroism is a part of narcisism.

*14.* When I make descriptions of DP/DR and people start to feel for me, I begin to fall back from the things that I have said and starting to think "hmmm... nahhh, it's not that bad, I must have exhagerated". Maybe I just feel that "justice is here now, you are understood" and after that feeling better. Maybe...

*15.* What would be interested is to know how and why it all begun (narcisism and the such). They say that every human was a label infront of him saying "make me feel important". I don't understand why I want to feel important though. Additionally, is, the fact that we have the need to know what is the meaning behind everything, related to narcisism?

*16.* Self-comment: as long as i will keep requesting a credit from myself for everything creditable I do, I will not deserve the credit.

*and "The ugly": Depersonalization*

Well... You know the story.. "I am not sure if I have DP/DR, blah blah blah... nag nag nag...". Here is my latest (and most detailed) description I could make about DP/DR: my thoughts, do they look like DP or DR?

*Appendix #1: illusions*

I have illusions related to military and psychological hardening. I guess this is connected to the "heroism" item. I use this as a weapon against my social (and romance) failures: "I don't need this fancy (romance, social) crap!". I belive you got the point. Not something I am proud of, but I need to feel better from the blight that the lack of these two issues cause to me.

I also have illusions (fantasies more actually) that I reach to a "reign" where everything that bothered me is unimportant now. I guess this isn't bad. Phew.. at last, something good 

*Appendix #2: obsessions*

I feel a lot of sorrow when thinking that
- I am doing something bad to myself (like watching a lot TV while life slips away and I am in fact a loser: the aging fear along with the failure-guy fear: I don't know if those fears are justified but I believe they are)
- Someone else is doing bad to himself. I once saw a fat guy eating junk food and felt soooo sad  I once saw an old woman eating from garbage and felt sooooooooo sad  ..It's ok though.. I don't have it inside my mind right now.

*Ending comment:*

As always, I know I said a little more than I should, but "what the hell!"  I am (almost ) anonymous. I am beeing optimistic as I close this post


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## Essex (Jul 10, 2005)

I was given up for adoption at birth. In the 8 days waiting to be replaced by a substute "oneness" I laid alone wondering, "Am I the cause of my hopelessness? am I the cause of this fear I feel, am I the cause of losing my self (birth mum) then in comes substitute mum, only sub mum has own neurotic problems and cannot mirror me. It must be me because this mum is mum, unyet she isn't. 
Maybe this is where my Narcissim started from. 
I smiled all the way through the post above. I use to daydream I was a soildier coming home from war (around age 5) and all the neighbours (my world was smaller then LOL) would stand and wave and cheer me on. then when I got to ashamed of that thinking, I would fantasie I had a secret wardrobe where only I went. Ha Im totally mad LOL.


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## Essex (Jul 10, 2005)

And I have shit grammer too, because I daydreamed all through sch LOLOL :lol:


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

Essex said:


> I smiled all the way through the post above.


You mean you actually read that thing? 

Tell me what you think.


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## Essex (Jul 10, 2005)

Well I liked it. But then again should I say that to a narcissis?? oh fuck it why not :wink:


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

Essex said:


> Well I liked it


I don't know if "like" is good or bad  But I should I take it as "you are a narcisist and I liked the way you described it"?

It was a lousy post, big and full of creepy details. I guess I had nothing to loose. I should have put a warning: "this material should be censored".



Essex said:


> But then again should I say that to a narcissis??


It isn't a flattering. It is bad news actually. I had a hope that the "test (results) would be negetive".



Essex said:


> oh f--- it why not


 Although it didn't felt like a flattering, I understand what you mean... Let's induldge into it a while. It's not bad if it is a while. Like having some slack in my diet? 

I am having another daydream now.. A life without this. Yeah, "a life"... This must be an old case. I wander what caused it. It would be certainly interesting finding that out. Heh  I already have ideas for my... remedy.

I will see how it goes and post the results here. Don't hesitate even for a moment to suggest solution to my.. problem.

Some time later, I will say what things I am in and what out for Janine's description of narcisism.

Something else too. I have been involved into this story (doesn't matter how, it isn't important anyway) that trigged me through mystery and a suspicion for a bad end. It caught my interest. I am having ideas. At least, I am enjoying some time off from the mind's standstill.

To everyone that is reading this: exercise your hardest critic, I don't mind. No.. in fact, I would like it. This has to be the way out of this: critic, and why not? even critisism. I have been on the slack for... Well till this day. I am reading some stuff from the website that Xeper gave. Not much till now, but I'll go for more tomorrow.


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## Essex (Jul 10, 2005)

You losted me now mate. Never mind even good dreams have to come to an end :lol:


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

Hehe  Sorry. If you want, tell me where did I start not to make sense.

My English is a bit "bad". Or maybe my English is a lot!  Or maybe it's not at all and I am using this as an excuse.


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## Essex (Jul 10, 2005)

You lost me after "I'm having another daydream..." Hey with your "not so good" English and my "Not so good grammer" We ain't doing to bad :wink:

How bout this for my "Narcisstic" pride...I got told to watch my language, ie I swore at a guy on the phone LOLOL :evil: Geez my ego hit the floor LOLOL!!! *Essex wanders away in shame, looking for that narcisstic fantasy to pick her up* Exit stage Left


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

Essex, finaly, I beat my boredom and explain that weird post of mine that you didn't understood 

"I am having another daydream now" means that I am now dreaming of a life without narcisism.

I am also wandering what could have caused me narcisism and I have a few ideas of how to find out.

Janine said some things in this first post of this topic. I fit on some of them but not all. When I am not bored, I will to which I fit.

I am also refering to an story that made me felt a bit better.

And I close the post by saying that I expect and would appriciate hard critisism.


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

Which one gave birth to the other?:

*- my need to feel important?
- or, my pursuit/pursuance to feel nothing?*


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

The crushing of the narcisist comes when he/she realizes that those are only fantasies. This is one of the things that make him/her start wondering about the things he/she thinks.

One other reasons is because narcisism goes along with egoism. And when people say you are egoism and you must eliminate your egoism, this means narcism must fall too.

Do you ever have guilt when feeling good? (happy for instance) It's like I am missing something ("not taking something under consideration") when I am feeling good.

Is it because my narcisism makes me feel good?

Do you ever react badly when you feel sorry for yourself? I react really badly (imagine something like epilepsy crisis but it's not epilepsy of cource).


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## Essex (Jul 10, 2005)

I am fortunate to be a recovering alcoholic and the 12 step recovery prog is a great solution for my narcissim too.


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

I know that it is not epilepsy because when an external stimulant arrives (a noise at the other side of the room), my frenzy stops.

Besides, sometimes I just crush my punch on the table several times. This doesn't happen in epilepsy.

Essex, tell me a few things that help with narcisism. Or I will have to become alcoholic  (and move to England of cource, because in Greece... things are not so good for people with mental problems )


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

Brain,

Janine already said it, but I'll say it more bluntly:

*You do not consciously like yourself.*

--------

All of the descriptions of how you think and feel show that your inner life is compensatory thought. You are consciously thinking thoughts that compensate for your lack of conscious, healthy self-love.

Once again, and bluntly: You do not consciously love yourself.

--------

But of course you are smart and lovable, and your unconscious loves yourself very much.

You need to get into some form of therapy or do the work yourself to get to the point where you can experience the emotions connected with being consciously aware of the fact that you _do _love yourself in a healthy way. Because of what you said about "tears," I think you can possibly do it on your own. I know that you have said how bad the counseling situation is in Greece.

Talking about "narcissism" or other labels doesn't really help. You are in the center of a maze and you have to find the way out.

If you are narcissistic or if you are any other type of personality, the answer is still the same: You have to consciously realize that it is true that you are:

- Good
- Loved
- Worthy of happiness
- Capable of consciously loving yourself

You report being desirous of receiving praise, but then of being moved to tears by it. You are having an inner war. One part believes you are good and another believes you are not good.

All you have to do is this: Admit into your consciousness who you really are and admit into your consciousness the healthy self-love that is in you.


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

Any practical advices in stopping the self-pitty? It will be useful till I manage to be over with Narcisism.

It really bothers me, in a level of in-functionality. Even through writing this post, I was trying to prevent myself from taking credit for beeing able to express (including but not limited to a foreign language). Lately, there are very little events not causing crediting.

The next appoint to doctor is set in Thursday. I gave him Narcisism and wannabe-DP scripts (self-evaluations actually), but it is 4 days till Thurdsay.

I read your post Sojourner. Thank you for the reply. I don't know what's happening with memory. It's like my memory belongs to someone else. Like nothing of these incidents happened to me.

PS: I don't know why, but I want to add this "revenge through hardness/hardening".


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2005)

perhaps:

recognise just how mean and sadistically we treat ourselves. its this ruthless drive to be the absolute peak in perfection (that isn't obtainable), that is the key to self hate i think. we beat ourselves to death over the slightest flaw or even realisitic human limitation. we are the mean, cruel and ruthless drill sergeants to ourselves.

when we could be a friend to ourselves.

gentlessness is the key i think. and self-respect. the sort of respect we'd show our friends. we need to show ourselves that too.


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

I don't know... :| I am not sure... :| Do I treat mean and sadistically to myself? I just don't think so.

But, earlier today, I had this thought.. *Why do I think that I am either nothing or king?* I haven't discussed Narcisism with my psychologist yet, but I will next time.

I seek perfection to a few things, but I never saw it as bad. Of course, it's bad when you seek perfection to your appearence, or in art (any sort of it). I guess, it's quite tiring seeking the perfect result. But I wouldn't characterise myself as perfectionist. However, a psychiatrist I went, did, as well as phobic, (and some more I cannot remember right now).


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2005)

i think striving for perfection is admirable.

but

the problem is identifying with the resulting perfect self image. i.e. believing that we actually are the perfect friend/artist/florist/whatever that we'd like to be, without putting the honest solid work into achieving it.

for instance: i can't sketch very well, and i often hate myself for having no talent. but this is misguided, because i can't possibly expect to be a decent sketch artist without practicing alot, which i don't. so i have this simultaneous image of myself as a potential brilliant artist, and as a crap artist (king or nothing). but by identifying with (i.e. imagining myself as, and believing myself to be in some reality) the brilliant artist, i know i'm just widening this gulf between me and reality. which in turn makes it harder to face practice, because its so painful to see how unpracticed i am.

a thought for the day: compulsive modesty is a form of perfectionism.

good luck, i hope you can get to the bottom of this.


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## widescreened (Jun 22, 2005)

Yes,perfectionism,narcissm and ultimately procastination go hand in hand.I was very narcistic in my early and late teens,before dp kicked in good and proper,so i have to be honest and admit the soil was fertile for it.morbid thoughts of my own funeral with a packed church;grand tributes from esteemed members of the community;cathartic hymns and floods of tears.Im nearly getting a lump in my throat writing this!!this thread has reminded me of something that i had forgotten about myself,Im definitely going to work through my new narcistic awareness


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## Essex (Jul 10, 2005)

I am currently in my 2nd yr of therapy. My Narcissim takes the form of wanting that perfect love (motherly) and my fantasys when dont work out turn into monsters in my head. The rage of the perfect love not being "real" I spotted the monster stage yesterday and watched it for the first time. I didnt react to it. My T says we need to get to ordinary, LOL me ordinary? nah its one extreme of the other for me! No seriously as I work on myself and begin to "see" my narcissim I am feeling with saddness and regret and some shock at how the mind can take on a life form of its own. I asked my T is narcissim curable? as I've heard it isn't. She said yes it was fraud who hadn't thought it through who said it wasn't curable. Today it is possible!! thank you god! i am sick adn dont want to be anymore and once upon a time my narcisstic thinking would have said I can cure myself LOL today I know I need help.


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## nicon (Aug 19, 2004)

some of mine takes the form of: this world should be perfect, meet all of my needs, and think I am the greatest although my self image is very low. I have been working on just accepting things as they are, cos they arnt going to change to make you happy. Radical acceptance.


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

widescreened said:


> Yes,perfectionism,narcissm and ultimately procastination go hand in hand [...]


What is procastination?



widescreened said:


> Im nearly getting a lump in my throat writing this!!


Yes, the lump is quite often for me too.



nicon said:


> [...] "this world should be perfect" [...]


ouch... So am I. Never thought that it was because of Narcisism. I am having a problem with injustice, poverty, the paranoia of economic handling, the in-transparency of humans' economic behavior. Ouch...

I come now to see what JanineBaker wrote at the first page:



JanineBaker said:


> but because we are constantly needing to refer BACK TO SELf, as if to reaffirm its existence. *Even before/without DP, we can't just BE*. We don't just presume Self, we monitor it, control it, watch it, love it, hate it, reject it, glorify it....we live through the experience of being a self WHILE KNOWING we are living and experiencing as that self. "Regular" people would have no clue what this means, and would probably say I'm nuts, lol


..."_Even before/without DP, we can't just BE_"... This is what I must have been calling "Depersonalization/Derealization". But, the "dream" thing (plus the hollow pitch-black room with one display thought) denotes that _some_ Derealization might be present.

Really bothering. And, how come, after not characterize life as... "hell"


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## Blake (Aug 10, 2004)

QUICK QUESTION

Is there a "definitive" book detailing narcissism...

Or any interesting reads anyone could recommend on the subject?

Thanks!
BLAKE

"Live wisely and earnestly in the present."


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## widescreened (Jun 22, 2005)

procastination is constantly putting things off and planning on doing them later or tomorrow.this way,you end up doing nothing.


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

widescreened said:


> procastination is constantly putting things off and planning on doing them later or tomorrow.this way,you end up doing nothing.


Wow... I am dilatory. The psychologist didn't involve Narcisism.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2005)

Hi! I am new here and I would just like to say that what Janine described fits me in many many ways. I have also had many years of psychoanalysis by a stoically silent Freudian analyst- and have come to the point of......
HUGE FEARS.
Finding out who I am without this sense of entitlement is such a scarey thing. I was raised by a bpd mother and a npd father, and after concentrating on the damage my mother did, I have now to come to terms with how my father taught me his npd traits.
What I wanted to share is that I just read a book which concerns this very topic and is what led me to this site. It is called "The Search for the Real Self" by James F. Masterson.
In this book, Masterson says that the original trauma which leads to the creation of a "false self" is a far too early abandonment issue during childhood. The abandonment situation occurs in many forms and can be real, or can be symbolical as in a parent who just isnt there for one, or always cuts one down- abusive behavior like that. Whatever makes the parent not be a good parent, I suppose, and the child feels unsupported and all alone. This leads to the child adopting a "false self" to cope. The book says that the child spends the rest of his life trying desperately to avoid the separation depression from this early stage of life. 
All I can say is that from my point of view with intense and deep psychoanalysis going on 8 years - this is true. I feel that only now am I actually facing this separation depression and it is showing it`s ugly face in the form of regression which makes me feel panic at being all alone, helpless, and incompetent. I am not saying that I actually AM these things, but I am saying that I am now having to work through these feelings from early childhood which led me to be such an obediant and submissive child - and which also caused me to have to wear the mask of superiority and entitlement and torture myself with some kind of undefinable perfectionism that can never be achieved. 
I also don`t know if "NPD" is my diagonsis, but I feel enough traits have manifested themselves as to cause me great suffering, and I hope to desolve them and feel better in the future.
It is very hard work going back to a time when we were so helpless that the only choice we seemed to have had was to put on a mask and become exactly what our parents subconsciously wanted us to be, instead of ourselves.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2005)

Hi DOlly,
I'm replying because I may be one of the few people you'll encounter who actually has read Masterson, lol.

He is good, but do realize, he writes about a very SPECIFIC type of patient. The False Self concept was originally described by Winnicott (you should check some books of his, too...you'll find them most intriguing)

Masterson has an interesting distinguisher between styles of treatment for (i) borderlines, versus (ii) narcissistic disorders, but those differences may not be as Clear Cut as they appear in his case studies.

In any case, welcome - and I'm happy to discuss if you like!

Peace,
Janine


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2005)

Hi Janine and thank you! Yes- I have read some Winnicott too, but Masterson was the one who seems to have caught my eye most, perhaps because just now I find myself in this situation so the timing was right. I would be interested in hearing more about the "separation depression". Have you had experience with it yourself? I can now see it as the explanation not only for my own neurotic behavior, but for a lot of other people I know - LOL.
Another thing- in the meantime I have read some of the personal accounts of depersonalization, and I have the feeling that I don`t really fit. Are "false self" and depersonalization the same thing? I just sometimes have the sense of being so foreign to myself - as if watching myself from the outside - but perhaps this is more of a product of therapy and ripping the mask away which makes me feel so alienated from who I used to be? The thing is, I used to feel like an observer already as a child, and my parents hostilely critisized just about everything about me ( I feel it is almost like trying to wipe out a person`s individuality) so this feeling was there before. I thought that depersonalization has something to do with not being able to be yourself, feelings of self-alienation, like not feeling at home in your own skin. I suspected that it had to do with hostility of the parents towards the child`s self - and in that context, the "separation depression" fits well because it would explain the child`s actual fears which lead to self-alienation and the creation of a false self. But is this a part of depersonalization? I have had periods lately when I have felt one with myself and totally "at home" inside, and I want to make these periods increase and last. But perhaps this is just getting over the false self of narcissism and has nothing to do with depersonalization?


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## Brainsilence02 (Jan 29, 2005)

My psychologist sais that noone is immiscible personality today. He read everything I wrote in this Topic/Thread, and although we didn't discuss this issue specifically, he didn't say that I was a narcisist (he said that I describe what I feel when get credited and the such). This is either too good (I don't have narcisism) or too bad (didn't want me to get in a defense mental "stance").

I am waaaaay too bored to write something else. Maybe that's a coping mechanism or a defense, but right now, I don't want to think of this anymore. I will come back in a few hours


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2005)

thats all cool, but in like lay terms,

what would you, Janine, say is the way out of narcissism (short def)?


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## ComplicatedFool (Dec 19, 2005)

This post describes me so well I stopped reading, cuz I need to unlearn a lot of stuff and it's almost like homework. This thread almost freaked me out. "If I didn't have the symptoms I would be extraordinary", hah so me.


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## HopeFloats (Dec 22, 2005)

ComplicatedFool said:


> This post describes me so well I stopped reading, cuz I need to unlearn a lot of stuff and it's almost like homework. This thread almost freaked me out. "If I didn't have the symptoms I would be extraordinary", hah so me.


Definately..same with me. I've been meaning to show that post to my analyst..which I think I will tonight. Very interesting.


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## Epiphany (Apr 28, 2006)

WooHoo...my first post.

I can't believe just how well this post describes me...despite how uncomfortable it made me feel about myself it really opened my eyes to a few home truths. 
I suppose I must admit (albeit rather reluctantly) that I have a narcissistic personality.

I have just started reading a book titled "Emotional Alchemy" by Tara Bennett-Goleman and when I read the description of the narcissistic emotional pattern I somehow managed to discount myself from this category, but after relating to almost everything in your post Janine, and also to a lot of the replies posted by everyone else, I realise that my narcissistic tendencies may be the cause of a lot of my issues.

It does pose quite a few questions for me but I think I'll get over the shock of finally writing my first post before I launch into them.

Thanks Janine...your post was a real eye-opener for me.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

This is me to a tee as well - i got really scared when I first read this a while back - it was haunting to see myself in some of these posts.

Epiphany, I realize it's been a while since you've posted - but I am looking for someone to chat about these personality types with if you feel like it.

Hope you are doing well .

Matt


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## Epiphany (Apr 28, 2006)

Yep doing well today Matt...thanks for asking.

Would be happy to chat with you more on this topic...I find it of particular interest now since discovering I am pregnant. The prospect of becoming a mother is rather daunting...the thought of being responsible for "moulding" your childs personality makes me want to know more about these narcissitic tendencies of mine and how I may have developed them.

Do you feel you have always had these tendencies from childhood or did you develop them as you got older?


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

Epiphany said:


> Yep doing well today Matt...thanks for asking.
> 
> Would be happy to chat with you more on this topic...I find it of particular interest now since discovering I am pregnant. The prospect of becoming a mother is rather daunting...the thought of being responsible for "moulding" your childs personality makes me want to know more about these narcissitic tendencies of mine and how I may have developed them.
> 
> Do you feel you have always had these tendencies from childhood or did you develop them as you got older?


As far as I can remember I have always done things such as 'fantasize' about being important, being noticed, etc. I rarely listen to music without fantasizing that I wrote this song and am playing it for a group of people I know... or a venue full of thousands.

I constantly turn things onto myself... example: my good friend's father passed away recently. I was one of the few friends that was able to make it to the funeral - while I absolutely wanted to be there for him and such, the biggest thought on my mind was how I was going to look with him and with others. How it would make me appear to be such a good friend - I actually came out and so forth.

It's not to say I'm awful person and didn't care that his father died - but I am so strongly aware of self-image and self-conscious of how others are perceiving me. I put myself down so much when i say or do something stupid, often repeating it over and over in my head and turning bright red and thinking how horribly stupid I am.

When people like me and give me attention I tend to think they are AMAZING. When people don't seem to give me the time of day, I automatically label them an 'idoit' and stereotype them in with a group just not intelligent enough to hang around me.

The worst part is that until DP and until more recently especially I never really realized that anythign was wrong with these thought patterns.

What I want to know is - do I need to change them to get better? Do I need to stop fantasizing?

Janine says no - and I absolutely trust her opinion. She makes an excellent point that these personality types and DP are Correlated but one does not CAUSE the other.

However I want to know how healthy it can possibly be to think in this way, and is it even possible to stop or change? It has become me - that's who I am - it is even labelled as a 'personality type'.. one thing i know is that you can't change your personality - but perhaps you can try to improve it?

As for your baby (congratulations btw =) ) - I would not worry about 'moulding' your child into a narcississtic personality type. One thing I certainly do not believe is that my parents had much if anything to do with this aside from what they gave me in their genes. A combination of genetics and my own choices of how to react in response to my environment caused this IMO.

Just do your best to be the best mother you can be, and that is all that can be expected of you.


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## Epiphany (Apr 28, 2006)

Thanks Matt...I know I will be a good Mum...can't help but worry though (already...and it's only the size of a jelly-bean  )

Your post reflects a lot of the same tendencies I have.
I think it would be better if I sent you a PM with my response.


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## chris51 (Mar 21, 2005)

Sojourner said:


> Brain,
> 
> Janine already said it, but I'll say it more bluntly:
> 
> ...


Sorry to butt in but that was some awesome stuff that I will use.


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## amazongodess (Mar 22, 2006)

I am not sure if Janine is a psychologist or what but I am somewhat disturbed by this forum. I too identify very much with what you all are saying. When I read Janine's first post I was so happy to hear someone else describe exactly what I have thought about before. Relating everything back to self is a phrase I swear I've used. 
My issue here is with even coming close to calling these symptoms narrsistic. Every person has narcisistic/depressive/psychotic traits. The common thread I see among people with dp is over analising EVERYTHING. This includes seeing all kinds of traits in ourselves which are probably there, but the question is do they matter? Are they actually significant factors in getting or getting over dp. Then again....maybe I'm wrong. (was that modesty or narcisim?)


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2006)

..


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## Epiphany (Apr 28, 2006)

I just want to mention here something that Janine said in her first post.



> It?s important to know before beginning any discussion of ?Narcissism? that the word is VERY over-used and you can?t even get agreement among the psych professionals as to what it means, so confusion is guaranteed to abound. EVERYone on this earth has narcissistic traits and there is nothing wrong with that. It?s ?healthy narcissism? i.e., high self-esteem, etc.
> 
> When I use the word on this Board, I am usually talking about a narcissistic DISTURBANCE, or disorder. That does not mean that the person loves him/herself too much, but exactly the opposite. Narcissistic Disturbances arise when the person is SO fragile, and has such dark and horrible self-hatred at their core, that they need to create a false SELF image, a tricky way of convincing themselves that they are very powerful and/or special?all as ways of hiding from how bad they really feel about themselves underneath.


From my understanding I felt she was not referring to the form of narcissism as it manifests itself in Narcissictic Personality Disorder, more in terms of narcissistic disturbances.

I do not relate at all to the descriptions applied to NPD but I do to almost everything written in Janine's posts in this thread. So I can recognise that I have a tendency toward these narcissitic traits but in no way come close to having a full-blown disorder.


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2006)

..


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2006)

..


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## ret (Aug 10, 2004)

amazongodess said:


> I am not sure if Janine is a psychologist or what but I am somewhat disturbed by this forum. I too identify very much with what you all are saying. When I read Janine's first post I was so happy to hear someone else describe exactly what I have thought about before. Relating everything back to self is a phrase I swear I've used.
> My issue here is with even coming close to calling these symptoms narrsistic. Every person has narcisistic/depressive/psychotic traits. The common thread I see among people with dp is over analising EVERYTHING. This includes seeing all kinds of traits in ourselves which are probably there, but the question is do they matter? Are they actually significant factors in getting or getting over dp. Then again....maybe I'm wrong. (was that modesty or narcisim?)


No, not really. The sole narcassistic thing in this thread is the original post.


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## kukutininkas (Apr 9, 2010)

Monkeydust said:


> Good post.
> 
> Whilst I can see myself in much of that description, thinking about it I really don't think I "fit" the category properly.
> 
> ...


Well, i was always emphatetic, playful and relationship-orientated but that was a method how to satisfy my always hungry narcissistic core before DP made me feel like pillow tihghtly stuffed with a dust... i feel the need to get it back but the same time i have banned myself of this kind of thinking...


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## kukutininkas (Apr 9, 2010)

Dude, I've read only more than half of the text and I can already tell that this defines my experience and state by 100%. I'm working on it with my psychologist. First it was so embarrasing to speak about this experience that I used to talk about other things, different, semi-real experiences, never touching the core, because I had convinced myself that it was pointless. 
Now I'm trying to mostly focus on the feeling of inferiority, writhe of shame and how it's common to narcissistic disturbances. I had 6 consultations so far and talked about it and we revealed (together with my psychologist) that I'm afraid of something that does not really exist. It's like to be afraid of a creature made of fume thinking that it's real. 
And you were right writting about that before DP showed it to us, we didn't notice it before, but there's always the same question: ''how to ease my being when I have lot's of mental images, fears and millions of chaotic thoughts running around without any particuliar order...?'' Do you experience the same problems in the process of thinking? I mean, chaotic random thoughts all the time that wouldn't let you relax and think about what is what? Or maybe I'm the only one having such a disturbance? 
By the way, this topic is very useful for me and I am looking forward to your answer. Thank you.


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