# Prayer- Does God hear you?



## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

I'm a Christian, but many Christian's wouldn't call me one because I have beliefs that starkly contrast most. The same goes about my belief regarding prayer.

I do believe in a conscious God entity, however I dont believe he really sits up there or wherever he may be listening to millions of prayers. I think he is able to, however this is what I believe prayer is- I believe prayer is a psychological tool that God has given us. I believe we have power in ourselves and energy that we can tap into. We already know most people only use about 10% of their brains, who knows what we could potentially do if we used more. Perhaps we can tap into energy and things of that nature- psychic type abilities, however that is somewhat of a different subject.

I believe prayer works much like forced positive thinking does. You honestly believe something will happen or get better and when you pray, it's like meditation for your mind. In fact I think prayer is not much different than meditation. You focus your mind and close your eyes(most of the time). Of course there are differences, but a lot of similarities as well. I think prayer yields results on the mind just like meditation does. I dont believe, however that God is up there saying yes, no, maybe so. It is a gift that he has given us, but I think it works in a different way than most.

Thoughts?


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

Conjurus said:


> I'm a Christian, but many Christian's wouldn't call me one because I have beliefs that starkly contrast most. The same goes about my belief regarding prayer.
> 
> I do believe in a conscious God entity, however I dont believe he really sits up there or wherever he may be listening to millions of prayers. I think he is able to, however this is what I believe prayer is- I believe prayer is a psychological tool that God has given us. I believe we have power in ourselves and energy that we can tap into. We already know most people only use about 10% of their brains, who knows what we could potentially do if we used more. Perhaps we can tap into energy and things of that nature- psychic type abilities, however that is somewhat of a different subject.
> 
> ...


Hey there,

I don't really believe in God - but this is quite an interesting perspective. I find your views on religion quite interesting because you seem to be a mix of religious, a skeptic, and completely open minded at the same time. I agree with what you think except for the God part - prayers can be answered because of the positive thinking. When it comes to illness, positive thinking and hopefulness do have positive results on the body - our mind and body are intricately connected. Our minds do have strong abilities - and I think if there is a God out there, that is as much of a gift as anything.

It isn't true that we only use 10% of our brains though unfortunately. Very common myth. We use all 100%. Does not mean we don't have untapped potential though.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

thx- yeah I was actually wondering when I wrote that about whether the 10% thing was true or not lol. I do have a different attitude towards things like this- I like how you described it.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2009)

Real prayer does work.

I believe everybody has what we call "God" within them, I don't believe God is an external entity but is a truth that exists inside us. When we remove ego illusions we can love "As God loves"....Overcoming ego beliefs is total surrender to truth, to the way things truly are. When you find that space inside you where everything is in harmony and in balance with everything else-free from the dualities of ego that separate us as people, even if for a moment, there real prayer can happen. 
Prayer works because the ego illusions are removed-this is why we're told to surrender ourselves to God....And why they say that we can never be as great as God...That's not implying something else out there that is better than us or bigger than us, those are still Ego ideas, it's just that the Ego is a relative experience that blocks us from the truth within us. When our whole being has surrendered ego if only for a second, we are one with everything, in harmony with everything, there are no ego ideas blocking our will-it's a place of real love, of trueness-prayer happens in that space and when we prayer from that place-everything in the universe hears it, not as a sound, but on a sublime true level of reality from which everything manifests.

My prayers have been answered only when I learned to pray from that place of surrender and love. Praying the right way definitely works.

It's about more than just belief and intention because you must surrender all that stuff....Prayer without a destination or selfish outcome is heard. When I prayer I remember that everything is interconnected, therefore I don't ask that I be healed alone, I ask that all beings who are effected by the situation, all people involved in the situation be healed-remove the self from prayer and it works. God isn't an ego entity outside of us.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

Eh I'll always believe there's a God that exists as an ego outside of us because it just makes more sense to me that God created the universe rather than it creating itself. I acknowledge there's no proof for creation (And I also believe there's no real proof for evolution or the big bang), but it's just what I choose to believe. You know, all the answers to the existential questions- pick what you like and go with that. All that really matters is that you're not going through life worrying about it.

I also think you're right Lynsey about there being a power within us. I don't call it God, but I believe we have more mystical abilities than most people ever think about. I think you just have to learn how to tap into them. And as far as God goes, I'm open to the idea that he is a creation from another god and so was that god and on and on to infinite.

The bible says that god is unaware of there being any other gods, that certainly doesnt mean there arent any, he just doesnt know about them and if a more supreme being made him he could very well be ignorant of it, just like a lot of people are "ignorant" of God making us because they aren't "aware" of God. That is of course, if God really exists. (Which I believe he does) :wink:


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## peachy (Feb 9, 2008)

Matt210 said:


> It isn't true that we only use 10% of our brains though unfortunately. Very common myth. We use all 100%.


I cannot tell whether you mean we are using 100% of our brains all the time or that we access 100% through a span of time but I don't agree either way. There are probably some people that use about half, some more some less. Really, there's no numbers you can put on it, I just don't know how else to explain it. But if you think about it, some people put up a wall where they don't let anything above that level come in. Some people just yearn more for knowledge than others. Curiosity and that yearning plus compassion seems to me some of the ways you could get closer to that "100%" but really, I believe there is no 100%. It's like the concept of infinity. Just my 2 cents.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

peachyderanged said:


> Matt210 said:
> 
> 
> > It isn't true that we only use 10% of our brains though unfortunately. Very common myth. We use all 100%.
> ...


Not sure what you mean by this, I think perhaps you are thinking about it in different terms than I am. When most people talk about using 10% of their brain they are referring to the physical matter of the brain. We use every single neuron in our brain. Our brain actually has a cleaning mechanism called pruning where neurons that are not used die - which is why people say you have to keep your brain active in old age. Its the 'use it or lose it' idea. So it is in fact scientifically proven that we use all of our brain.

I think you are thinking of it more on a different level though - a non-physical one. There is no variation of how much people use the physical matter of their brain - a person who puts zero effort into life, doesn't get educated, doesn't challenge themself, doesn't think about the big questions, and so on uses 100% of their brain, and Einstein and Nietzsche used 100% of their brain. But you can argue that the latter are doing a lot more with their 100%.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

Conjurus said:


> I acknowledge there's no proof for creation (And I also believe there's no real proof for evolution or the big bang), but it's just what I choose to believe.


I have to disagree with this. The Big Bang Theory is still just that - a theory. You are correct. I am not a scientist nor a physicist, but I doubt that this can ever be proven one way or the other.

But evolution is a proven fact, with overwhelming scientific evidence for it. Even the Pope (John Paul) acknowledged that evolution was a fact. That says a lot about the strength of the evidence. I mean you can argue that nothing is for sure, but evolution is about on par with the world being round for how much evidence there is for it.

I've never understood why it bothers Christians so much to accept evolution - perhaps you can answer that as a more open-minded Christian. The Bible is clearly a collection of fictional stories, but evolution doesn't deny the existence of God. It in fact opens a whole bunch of new possibilities about God. He set the whole world in motion and allowed this gigantic, mysterious collection of events to play out. His creations got better with practice - from single cell organisms all the way to human beings. Evolution says nothing about the existence of God, it just says that a story that someone made up thousands of years ago isn't true. I realize some people cling to their Bible quite tightly, but for those Christians who can acknowledge the Bible as fictional like it is, I don't understand why it matters.



Conjurus said:


> You know, all the answers to the existential questions- pick what you like and go with that. All that really matters is that you're not going through life worrying about it.


And this I can agree with more than anything. I just want to find solutions that work for me in my life.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2009)

Conjurus said:


> Eh I'll always believe there's a God that exists as an ego outside of us


You think God has/IS an Ego? The definition of Ego in spirituality is greed, hatred and delusion, the Ego is selfishness. All spiritualitys have at their root the overcoming of Ego which is why we are taught "Love thy neighbor", compassion and that we aren't separate from eachother as we perceive ourselves to be but interconnected. Maybe you didn't mean it like that-it just makes NO sense to me that people see God as an Ego when it goes against the teachings of their religion. Also I don't see God as male or female. The reason God was deemed male is because in those days woman had no rights, it was all male dictatorship, if a woman tried to exert herself spiritually and rebelled against the male hierarchy she was called a harlot or a witch, before that woman was worshiped as a goddess-as someone who brought life into the world, who protected her people with intuition and compassionate understanding. What we call God has both masculine and feminine qualities in equal balance. If I had been around in those days I would have been hung or burned _willingly_ I can promise that. It just confuses and baffles me that in this day and age people still see God in same way as they did in the dark ages.

Just in the spirit of debate Jesse <3 we can argue it and make up again later.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2009)

Matt210 said:


> [The Bible is clearly a collection of fictional stories,


I don't think the bible is a collection of fictional stories as such, it is a collection of different peoples experiences about how they personally found God. Alot of it is exaggerated and embellished with fantasy-but mostly it is symbolic. in those days the way to truly express spiritual things was through metaphor and symbolism. The problem nowadays is that people do take the the bible to literally, they miss the message and what is truly being conveyed beyond the words. So in a sense it is fictional but in another way if read properly, it holds great truth.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

Spirit said:


> Matt210 said:
> 
> 
> > [The Bible is clearly a collection of fictional stories,
> ...


Right, but most works of fiction contain truths about life and so forth - but the story itself is still fictional. None of the stories in the Bible actually happened was my point. You can take plenty of good from the Bible if you look for the important messages (aka not the stone the homosexuals type stuff).

I wouldn't bash the bible for its intentions - but I do think there are few books in history that have caused more evil. The Qur'an would probably top it.

Note: Both books are horrifically misunderstood.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2009)

Matt210 said:


> Right, but most works of fiction contain truths about life and so forth - but the story itself is still fictional. None of the stories in the Bible actually happened was my point. You can take plenty of good from the Bible if you look for the important messages (aka not the stone the homosexuals type stuff).
> 
> I wouldn't bash the bible for its intentions - but I do think there are few books in history that have caused more evil. The Qur'an would probably top it.


I understood your point. How can you say that it didn't happen though, was you around to know that for a fact? It probably didn't happen in the way its described, the way it's presented is in a symbolic representation of what happened to those men , of how they found and experienced God. How can you know that those men didn't find God in their own ways?
It's not the Bible that causes evil Matt, its not even religion-Its the readers and followers of religion who misunderstand and misinterpret the bible that creates evil in the world. Mans ignorance causes evil. The bible was translated from another language and I believe there also lays a problem. For example Buddhist stanzas/verses are translated from Sanskrit, for this reason you can end up with many variations and interpretations of what is being said and believe me some are obsurd. One translation of the Buddhist Bodhicaryavatara, written by Shantideva the great compassionate Bodhisattva described woman as bags of unclean puss-while other translations do not and that thinking is not in tune with Buddhist thought at all, it's just a bad translation taken literally of what is symbolically being expressed. The point being is that it's not about literal interpretation-it is about what it is really saying.......If when reading such books people stopped to take the time and ask, "Why is it presented like this and not in another way, what might it be expressing behind the words, what is the intention of the writer?" they might get a glimpse of what is really being expressed. There's one Buddhist story, The story of Milarepa and Marpa. Milarepa was the student of the Master Marpa, there's a long story about how Marpa made Milarepa build towers and such and then every time asked him to pull them down again as a way of purifying him. Now obviously Milerepa didn't literally build great huge towers and then pull them down. If we look at the symbolism of the story it is expressing that Marpa was teaching Milerapa about impermanence, about how we ourselves in our minds create impermanent ego desires that are doomed to impermanence anyway, yet we carry on doing it through Ego. In the end Milarepa surrendered, he gave up-this symbolises how he surrendered his Ego desires.
Take the story of Daniel in the lions den, I don't believe Daniel was literally thrown into a den of lions-maybe in the psychological sense he was, maybe that is how he felt and in that sense the story of his experience is real not fictional.

What is expressed outwardly is merely a symbolic representation of what is experienced and manifesting within us.

Imagine if you had experienced God Matt, how on earth do you think you could express such a great experience that is beyond words itself to others? Most likely you would have to use metaphor and symbolism to convey your personal experience in much the same way as those men did.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

Spirit said:


> Matt210 said:
> 
> 
> > Imagine if you had experienced God Matt, how on earth do you think you could express such a great experience that is beyond words itself to others? Most likely you would have to use metaphor and symbolism to convey your personal experience in much the same way as those men did.


Absolutely, i'm not disagreeing with you. But if I experienced god, and couldn't describe it any way but to talk about being thrown into a lion's den in the context of a story - it would still be a fictional story. Wheres if I said "I experienced God, and there are no words to describe it" - that would be fact - non fiction (though most skeptics like myself would probably still doubt it).

Story telling is one of the most powerful ways to get a story across, but it doesn't stop the fact that the Bible is a fictional piece of work.

You and I definitely have very different views of religion. I think both the Bible, religion, and religious figures for the most part have good intentions. But I also believe that a lot of people have intentionally used religion for evil, for control of society, and have done awful things in the name of religion. Yes - they are misunderstanding and twisting their religion. I was raised in a catholic family and my mother has nothing but good intentions when it comes to religion. She uses it in all the right ways.

I am much more for personal religion than organized religion if that makes any sense. I understand that religion also brings a sense of community but a group of people with similar strong beliefs coming together will lead to an idea that those beliefs are superior to other beliefs, time and time again. This isn't even restricted to religion - it can be applied to anything.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2009)

Matt210 said:


> Absolutely, i'm not disagreeing with you. But if I experienced god, and couldn't describe it any way but to talk about being thrown into a lion's den in the context of a story - it would still be a fictional story. Wheres if I said "I experienced God, and there are no words to describe it" - that would be fact - non fiction (though most skeptics like myself would probably still doubt it).


Well in that case what is fictional is the description, not the experience, so technically it doesn't make the bible unjustified in every way.



> Story telling is one of the most powerful ways to get a story across, but it doesn't stop the fact that the Bible is a fictional piece of work.


I agree, witches and shamans use story telling as a way of communicating their knowledge also and have done for centuries. Take the childrens book _Little red riding hood_-That's actually a story that is demonstrating the female cycle of a woman's life with the maiden, the mother and the crone aspects and the continuum of life. Sure the story is fictional but the experience is real. But if I had experienced what we call God and I believe I have in my own way-I would want to teach it to others to help them, not just say well I can't tell you about it because it's beyond words. I think though that a persons actions say more about the truth within them than their words do, and sure there are alot of so called religious people who's actions do not demonstrate their inner experience of God at all-quite the opposite, but there are also others who's actions do and who do give good back to the world.



> You and I definitely have very different views of religion.
> 
> I am much more for personal religion than organized religion if that makes any sense. I understand that religion also brings a sense of community but a group of people with similar strong beliefs coming together will lead to an idea that those beliefs are superior to other beliefs, time and time again. This isn't even restricted to religion - it can be applied to anything.


Well I think it would be easy for people to presume that I was a religious person simply because of my views. I'm just not that black and white Matt. My spiritual path IS myself so what you say makes alot of sense to me. I think you presume that our views diff also just because of some views I have on religion, I'm not entirely seeing that. I think fundamental-organised religion is slavery and unauthentic and causes alot of problems, I hate what fundamental Christianity has done to the western world.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

Turns out we don't disagree on as much as I thought then. As I said, I like discussing these things. I still have so much to figure out in my life.

At this point in my life my worldview is entirely scientific. I don't believe in anything that can't be explained with science, and in particular I have strong faith in scientific research (as witnessed by my belief in evolution in here - to me evolution is not a belief but a fact). But i'm always interested and open-minded. I'd like to be a more 'spiritual' person I guess. I think it might help me. Not religious at all - as i've said, im comfortable living my life as an agnostic. But I need some sort of worldview or path that I can feel comfortable with.

Existential anxiety is a big problem still for me right now. I kind of want to find an open-minded therapist that I can just sit down and talk about the stuff that scares me.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2009)

Well you don't need to follow a religion like you say. Honor yourself, make friends with yourself and make your spiritual practice compassion-which you already have tons of-you're a very compassionate and helpful person Matt, that is self spirituality.
You do it better than most so called religious or spiritual people.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

Matt210 said:


> But evolution is a proven fact, with overwhelming scientific evidence for it. Even the Pope (John Paul) acknowledged that evolution was a fact. That says a lot about the strength of the evidence. I mean you can argue that nothing is for sure, but evolution is about on par with the world being round for how much evidence there is for it.


I really dont want to argue because if you believe that whole heartedly there's no point, however I would point out that I'm not a catholic and don't follow a lot of what they teach, including the whole idea of the pope and the pope himself.

Evolution is still "The theory of Evolution". It cannot be proven because it can't be observed and the supposed evidence of missing links is akin to things you'd read in the National Enquirer.



Matt210 said:


> I've never understood why it bothers Christians so much to accept evolution - perhaps you can answer that as a more open-minded Christian.


Because most Christian's take the Bible literally and evolution is in direct contrast to a literal interpretation of Genesis. I don't believe in evolution because of scientific reasons, but I am open to it if there were more substantial proof. Think of how confusing it would have been for people way back when the Bible was written if they wrote the story of creation as evolution. Nobody would have understood it, so it could very well have been turned into an allegory.



Matt210 said:


> The Bible is clearly a collection of fictional stories,


You should study the Bible and history. There's a LOT of information presented in the Bible that lines right up with history- this is not fictional. You also can't say with complete assertion that no story in the Bible actually happened. You just can't because you weren't there.



Spirit said:


> I don't think the bible is a collection of fictional stories as such, it is a collection of different peoples experiences about how they personally found God. Alot of it is exaggerated and embellished with fantasy-but mostly it is symbolic. in those days the way to truly express spiritual things was through metaphor and symbolism. The problem nowadays is that people do take the the bible to literally, they miss the message and what is truly being conveyed beyond the words. So in a sense it is fictional but in another way if read properly, it holds great truth.


I agree with this pretty much, though I am willing to admit there could be some literal stories in there.



Spirit said:


> You think God has/IS an Ego? The definition of Ego in spirituality is greed, hatred and delusion, the Ego is selfishness. All spiritualitys have at their root the overcoming of Ego which is why we are taught "Love thy neighbor", compassion and that we aren't separate from eachother as we perceive ourselves to be but interconnected. Maybe you didn't mean it like that-it just makes NO sense to me that people see God as an Ego when it goes against the teachings of their religion. Also I don't see God as male or female. The reason God was deemed male is because in those days woman had no rights, it was all male dictatorship, if a woman tried to exert herself spiritually and rebelled against the male hierarchy she was called a harlot or a witch, before that woman was worshiped as a goddess-as someone who brought life into the world, who protected her people with intuition and compassionate understanding. What we call God has both masculine and feminine qualities in equal balance. If I had been around in those days I would have been hung or burned _willingly_ I can promise that. It just confuses and baffles me that in this day and age people still see God in same way as they did in the dark ages.
> 
> Just in the spirit of debate Jesse <3 we can argue it and make up again later.


Yes I do believe he's an ego and just the way you described. I hold a different view of God than pretty much anybody. I believe that God is made up of every attribute we know of including greed, selfishness, jealousness, etc. The only thing God can't do is sin- which by my definition is disobeying God. I also agree that he's neither male or female. He's the complete essence of all things.

Oh make up eh? Maybe we will have to argue sometime.  Make ups are fun. 8)


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

Do you believe in Dinosaurs? What about the Dodo Bird? Neither of these can be observed by us either. 99.9% of credible scientists in the whole world believe in evolution, and they are a lot smarter than I am so I take their word for it. I don't know where you get the National Enquirer analogy from as these are scientific studies - the same way we come to find out anything that happened before us.

I don't know, I don't mean to ever be disrespectful of other's beliefs at all - but there is a point where I draw my personal line. Just as I wouldn't listen to arguments that the world is flat. I think it is particularly shocking in Canada because such a large percentage of the population here accepts evolution. I hear stories all the time of Christians in the U.S. trying to get creationism taught in schools which just about gives me a heart attack every time I hear it. Our Minister of Science and Technology up here wouldn't come out and state he believed in evolution recently and he was ridiculed and criticized and received demands he step down until he came out and said he did believe in evolution (It is still widely believed he is a creationist which makes people very unhappy). Its just a different situation here, as I believe it will be in the U.S. eventually (and probably is among the major cities).


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

Yes i believe in Dinosaurs and the dodo bird, but I think you being close minded about creation is just as bad as christians being close minded about evolution. So what if the majority teaches it? The majority also used to teach some pretty weird and wrong concepts in health care that was plain wrong. The majority at one point did in fact teach the world was flat. The majority at one point taught that the sun revolved around the earth. Who's to say in 100 years they wont change their mind about evolution?


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

The Catholic church is actually embracing the Big Bang these days as it fits with creation. One day, maybe, they'll change their minds about evolution. The trend seems to have the Church adapting to scientific progress rather than science conforming to Christian scripture.

That is in no way an attack on the inherent value of Christianity.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

egodeath said:


> The Catholic church is actually embracing the Big Bang these days as it fits with creation. One day, maybe, they'll change their minds about evolution. The trend seems to have the Church adapting to scientific progress rather than science conforming to Christian scripture.
> 
> That is in no way an attack on the inherent value of Christianity.


Agreed and honestly I believe scientists could be figuring out how it was all really done or set into motion, but I think they've got a lot more to learn yet before we can call it fact.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

egodeath said:


> The Catholic church is actually embracing the Big Bang these days as it fits with creation. One day, maybe, they'll change their minds about evolution. The trend seems to have the Church adapting to scientific progress rather than science conforming to Christian scripture.
> 
> That is in no way an attack on the inherent value of Christianity.


This is bizarre to me because in scientist's minds evolution is a done deal. It happened, it is fact. It is no longer a theory. The Big Bang remains just a theory. Odd that they would be more likely to accept a theory than a fact.

I don't think either the Big Bang or Evolution present threats to the true beliefs of Christianity or the idea of God either, as I have stated. I think they present challenges to the Bible. But as i've said, the Bible is a fictional piece of work so I don't understand why that matters. (I mean I GET it as in I know that people want to interpret the Bible literally, i'm not stupid - but i'm talking in terms of pure logic, I don't get why its a problem).


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2009)

Conjurus said:


> Spirit said:
> 
> 
> > You think God has/IS an Ego? The definition of Ego in spirituality is greed, hatred and delusion, the Ego is selfishness. All spiritualitys have at their root the overcoming of Ego which is why we are taught "Love thy neighbor", compassion and that we aren't separate from eachother as we perceive ourselves to be but interconnected. Maybe you didn't mean it like that-it just makes NO sense to me that people see God as an Ego when it goes against the teachings of their religion. Also I don't see God as male or female. The reason God was deemed male is because in those days woman had no rights, it was all male dictatorship, if a woman tried to exert herself spiritually and rebelled against the male hierarchy she was called a harlot or a witch, before that woman was worshiped as a goddess-as someone who brought life into the world, who protected her people with intuition and compassionate understanding. What we call God has both masculine and feminine qualities in equal balance. If I had been around in those days I would have been hung or burned _willingly_ I can promise that. It just confuses and baffles me that in this day and age people still see God in same way as they did in the dark ages.
> ...


I don't get it, I don't get then why you believe in a God that is outside of you if he holds all the same attributes as we humans do, I mean why worship God as a greater being then?. Sin is actions committed because of greed , hatred and the belief in an Ego-selfishness. The belief in separation between people by an Ego is what divides people, eradicating that belief and acting in accordance is marrying people together. The very word Religion means to Re-legion, to unite, to marry...that is the path and the goal. 
So if God holds all of those Ego qualities how in the world does God not sin? On another level if you believed God was within you, that God was all that is rather than a thing outside of you then I could understand what we call God having all of those qualities, because Buddhist deitys hold those qualities, only they are transformed into different wisdoms and medicines and demonstrate the workings of reality through these qualities. Take the goddess aspect for example, she can be gentle and loving but then she is chaos and destruction.....So I can see these different qualities playing a part as a whole in our universe that way. But why pray to a greater being outside of you if it's brought down into the realm of the mundane? You have all of those qualities within you too see? 
I truly want to understand your view, it's got me thinking alot about things. On a positive note your post got me thinking about how society idealises "God", how society has conditioned what we call God to suit their own needs, maybe we all do that?

Sure making up is alotta fun. :wink: I don't think we fell out yet though lol.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

Well like in my original post of this topic, I dont believe that I'm praying to God when I'm praying. Praying to me is more like meditation and releasing energy that's within you. The reason to worship God is because he created us and sent his son to redeem us. He is capable of being jealous or angry, but it isnt sin for him. Sin to me is disobeying God. Stealing isn't sin because you've stolen, it's sin because God commands us not to steal. God could steal if he wanted to because he hasnt commanded himself not to steal. See sin is only disobeying God, not specific actions, it just so happens that certain things he has commanded us to do and not to do.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

Conjurus said:


> Well like in my original post of this topic, I dont believe that I'm praying to God when I'm praying. Praying to me is more like meditation and releasing energy that's within you. The reason to worship God is because he created us and sent his son to redeem us. He is capable of being jealous or angry, but it isnt sin for him. Sin to me is disobeying God. Stealing isn't sin because you've stolen, it's sin because God commands us not to steal. God could steal if he wanted to because he hasnt commanded himself not to steal. See sin is only disobeying God, not specific actions, it just so happens that certain things he has commanded us to do and not to do.


How is one supposed to know what is a sin and isn't a sin though?

And shouldn't people do something because it is right or wrong - not because their creator told them to? If your creator told you to kill another human being and told you it would be a sin if you didnt, would you?

This is precisely why I believe in making personal moral judgments. Example - despite many people believing homosexuality is a sin, I actually think the people who go out and protest and make life living hell for gay people and tell them they can't get married are horrible people. I have a couple gay friends, I am completely for being whatever you want to be, and I think gay people should get married if they want to get married. Christians will ask me: "Aren't you worried that if God exists, these beliefs will send you to hell? Or that these people who partake in these acts will go to hell". And I answer "If there is a just god in the world, the people who make life a living hell for gay people will go to hell themselves - if god is not just, then I will gladly go to hell over spending a lifetime with a god that would condone that kind of behavior".


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

Matt210 said:


> How is one supposed to know what is a sin and isn't a sin though?


You know what is sin and what isn't sin by what the Bible teaches.



Matt210 said:


> And shouldn't people do something because it is right or wrong - not because their creator told them to?


Who decides what is right or wrong? What's right in my eyes may be wrong in your eyes. The bible gives us a standard.



Matt210 said:


> If your creator told you to kill another human being and told you it would be a sin if you didnt, would you?


I do plenty of things that my creator told me not to do. I also don't do thing that he has told me to do. So if he did tell me to kill another human being and told me it would be a sin if I didnt, then no I wouldn't anyway. The Qur'an commands muslims to kill and they do. So I guess it depends on what Bible you're following and whether or not you decide to do what it says.



Matt210 said:


> This is precisely why I believe in making personal moral judgments. Example - despite many people believing homosexuality is a sin, I actually think the people who go out and protest and make life living hell for gay people and tell them they can't get married are horrible people. I have a couple gay friends, I am completely for being whatever you want to be, and I think gay people should get married if they want to get married. Christians will ask me: "Aren't you worried that if God exists, these beliefs will send you to hell? Or that these people who partake in these acts will go to hell". And I answer "If there is a just god in the world, the people who make life a living hell for gay people will go to hell themselves - if god is not just, then I will gladly go to hell over spending a lifetime with a god that would condone that kind of behavior".


I agree that it's not people's responsibilities to make hell for gay people. The Bible doesn't teach to do that. If the Bible doesn't teach it, then God doesn't condone it.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

But as i've mentioned - the Bible is fictional. So you are basing your moral code on what someone else decided a couple thousand years ago. Why not decide what is right for yourself?

And if you do plenty of things the Bible told you not to do, why do you consider them sins? Do you not think sinning is a bad thing? It is just a puzzling view to me - because sinning I would imagine is a bad thing. I'm not saying i've never done a bad thing, but I certainly don't consider some of the things the Bible teaches as sins to be bad things. Like having sex before or outside of marriage for example, or having sex for pleasure.

For me there are objective rights and wrongs, and I try and live by them. You are right in saying that I have made a SUBJECTIVE judgment about what I think is right or wrong, but I like to think that means I live a more moral life than what a fictional book that has some pretty horrible stuff in it tells me to do.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

Oh no. Another one of these.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

Matt210 said:


> But as i've mentioned - the Bible is fictional. So you are basing your moral code on what someone else decided a couple thousand years ago. Why not decide what is right for yourself?


See I don't believe the Bible is fictional. I do decide what is right for myself and it just so happens it aligns with what the Bible teaches.



Matt210 said:


> And if you do plenty of things the Bible told you not to do, why do you consider them sins? Do you not think sinning is a bad thing? It is just a puzzling view to me - because sinning I would imagine is a bad thing. I'm not saying i've never done a bad thing, but I certainly don't consider some of the things the Bible teaches as sins to be bad things. Like having sex before or outside of marriage for example, or having sex for pleasure.


Though I know some things I do are sins, and yes I believe they are wrong because of that, I still am allowed to do them because of free will. I also believe that sex=marriage, but that's another topic.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

I believe sex is more fun if you're not married.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

Hm, I can sense this turning into a debate - which is entirely my fault since you are clearly trying to be nice and avoid one. But i'll just shutup now because I will say that I rarely debate religion with someone religious without them ending up mega-pissed at me haha. Even though this is the debate forum, I sense our views on this are just not compatible so i'll leave it there.

I am an extremely opinionated person and I promised myself here on this forum I would just leave my strong opinions out of it because people here are great people and it is a perfect place to just leave all prior prejudices etc. at the door and work with different people on getting better.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

Also I believe religion could only be the work of Satan.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

Matt210 said:


> Hm, I can sense this turning into a debate - which is entirely my fault since you are clearly trying to be nice and avoid one. But i'll just shutup now because I will say that I rarely debate religion with someone religious without them ending up mega-pissed at me haha. Even though this is the debate forum, I sense our views on this are just not compatible so i'll leave it there.
> 
> I am an extremely opinionated person and I promised myself here on this forum I would just leave my strong opinions out of it because people here are great people and it is a perfect place to just leave all prior prejudices etc. at the door and work with different people on getting better.


It's fine man, I enjoy talking about my views, and I enjoy reading about others' as well. Even if we're not going to change our opinions it's still fun to see what the other believes. We can be civil


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

egodeath said:


> Also I believe religion could only be the work of Satan.


It probably is. :wink: Which is why I don't follow any religion or participate with any.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

Also the world was created by neither a God nor by a "Big Bang." It was created by Richard Nixon. That's why there is no morality.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

egodeath said:


> Also the world was created by neither a God nor by a "Big Bang." It was created by Richard Nixon. That's why there is no morality.


 :lol: But he's not a crook.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

Of course not.

I'm a senior member. W00t w00t!


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2009)

LOL This IS the debate section so why not debate? I thought it had already become a debate Matt and I know I partly started it as well.....so what.



 Conjurus said:


> Well like in my original post of this topic, I dont believe that I'm praying to God when I'm praying. Praying to me is more like meditation and releasing energy that's within you. The reason to worship God is because he created us and sent his son to redeem us. He is capable of being jealous or angry, but it isnt sin for him. Sin to me is disobeying God. Stealing isn't sin because you've stolen, it's sin because God commands us not to steal. God could steal if he wanted to because he hasnt commanded himself not to steal. See sin is only disobeying God, not specific actions, it just so happens that certain things he has commanded us to do and not to do.


Hmm, God can sin and it's okay? I'm sorry but that's the most hypocritical thing I've ever heard.

That's not religion, its _Dictatorship_-we have governments and such like for that, not God. It's not just and it's not merciful. I'm baffled.

Stealing and whatever else is sin because it causes suffering to others not because God says so. That which causes suffering is sin, that which does not cause suffering but brings harmony is virtue.

I dunno, I just don't like it when people make God sound like some kind of baby sitter, or like the parent who says don't smoke to his kids while puffing his heart out on a ciggy.....If God was like that I'd think he was total Jerk.

Why....Why...would a God command us not to do certain actions if they weren't sin? Obviously those actions ARE sin or he wouldn't of commanded people not to commit those actions in the first place-saying that the actions aren't sin , but only disobeying God is the sin because he said do not commit those actions is very illogical. And why...why..would you want to worship a God who sins? How does that fit in with your religion and the reasons that you believe in God? Why are you a christian? I think the bible has become some sort of pocket guide book which holds all the appropriate answers so that Christians never have to search their hearts for their own truth or the answers-it's like dead religion. Your explanation sounded prepackaged.

Again, only in the spirit of debate and of wanting to understand.<3


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

edit- moved to page 4


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

You already know that I think the Bible is fictional, but putting that aside for a moment and saying it is fact - what about the awful things the Bible tells people to do? Say for example:

" (Deu 13:6-10 NRSV) If anyone secretly entices you?even if it is your brother, your father?s son or your mother?s son, or your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your most intimate friend? saying, "Let us go worship other gods," whom neither you nor your ancestors have known,

any of the gods of the peoples that are around you, whether near you or far away from you, from one end of the earth to the other, you must not yield to or heed any such persons. Show them no pity or compassion and do not shield them.

*But you shall surely kill them; your own hand shall be first against them to execute them, and afterwards the hand of all the people.Stone them to death for trying to turn you away from the LORD your God, ?* "

Do you agree with this? Would you kill your family members if they tried to turn you away from God? Would this be considered moral?

I think humans can find basic morality inside themselves - and one doesn't even have to look that hard. Objective morality exists - and I don't need a book to tell me how to be a good person.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

If you could, please use the King James version of the Bible as that's what I use.

The answer is that that was written for a different people of a different time. Back in those days children were stoned for disobeying their parents. Of course things aren't that way now. The bible has updated itself with the several books that it contains. The books written for today are located in the New Testament.

And no you don't need a book to tell you how to be a good person. In fact the Bible says that the knowledge of what is good and what is bad is written in our hearts- our conscience.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

This was on page 3- moved here for easier viewing.

Response to Lynsey-

See our definition of sin is different. By my definition, sin is disobeying God. So if he tells us not to do something and we do it anyway, that is sin. God can't disobey himself, so he can't sin.

I don't know why he would command us to do some things and not to do some things. I guess because he's God and he can do what he wants lol. I guess the question is, who decided what sin was in the first place? Was it a sin for adam and eve to eat the fruit they were commanded not to eat in the garden? Well any Christian would say yes, but why? Well the only answer is because God said not to.

The serpent told Eve that God didnt want them to eat it because he knew they'd become like him! So maybe God tells us not to do certain things because then we'd be like gods ourselves. This fits with my belief, because I believe God to hold all qualities.

I dont know all the answers. I'm still trying to figure out things for myself. And Christian's aren't the only people with a pocket book guide of answers- every religion has something they go to for answers, after all that's what we're all seeking- answers. It just depends on what you pick. Even evolutionists do it, just with science books- Matt said himself he didnt understand it, but he trusts the scientists. Why would you put your trust into something you don't understand? Well for the same reason I do- answers.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

Conjurus said:


> If you could, please use the King James version of the Bible as that's what I use.
> 
> The answer is that that was written for a different people of a different time. Back in those days children were stoned for disobeying their parents. Of course things aren't that way now. The bible has updated itself with the several books that it contains. The books written for today are located in the New Testament.
> 
> And no you don't need a book to tell you how to be a good person. In fact the Bible says that the knowledge of what is good and what is bad is written in our hearts- our conscience.


Do you believe that God has an active part in having the bible written then? Like he/she communicated his will through the authors of the Bible I assume?

You must at least acknowledge the risk that some of the texts in the Bible could be false though correct? As i've mentioned, my personal view is that the entire thing is fictional, fabricated, and so forth. But let's say God is speaking to people and they are having their writings added to the Bible. I am living at the time, I decide that i don't like something about humanity, so I decide to write a story in which I make it seem as if I am preaching the word of God - yet I haven't actually heard from God. How do the people who are assembling the Bible know what is real and what is not? You have to admit that it is likely that at least some of the texts of the bible are not the word of God. Do you feel comfortable following a book of rules in which at least some of the rules described as sin could have been fabricated based on one person's view?

I believe that none of them are the word of God - as I said, i'm agnostic which means i don't necessarily say God doesn't exist (although I'm sure i've said plenty of times in here that I dont believe in God - but that isnt 100% true, I just accept God as one of a million possibilities). But one thing I feel very confident of is that if God exists and created the world he has had no part in the world since the beginning.

As for your second point - if the moral code is written in our hearts, why do we need the Bible at all?

Thirdly - and not really related to what we are talking about. You've probably talked about it before - but what do you think of the state of religion in the United States? This is out of personal curiosity. The U.S. is one of the most puzzling societies to me, and as far as I can recall it is entirely unique. No other developed, democratic nation has even a fraction of the percentage of religious people as the United States. No other one puts such an emphasis on religion in its political system. How do you feel about this? I may be a delusional lefty, but if I was a moral God i'd be voting for the democrats out of pure compassion. Both parties are a little messed up, but the Republicans to me are the opposite of everything that Christianity stands for, yet it is a party that is larely supported by Christians. Honestly, it baffles the rest of the world when a very stupid, ignorant man like George W. Bush is elected for two straight terms on the backs of wealthy businessmen and more prominently - the Christian base. As an intelligent, American, Christian I thought maybe you could clarify the situation there a little bit with some personal opinion. Has religion just been twisted out of control in your country?

(I should note that I don't dislike the United States at all - I visit frequently (2-3 times per year) and plan to move there one day)


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2009)

Conjurus said:


> This was on page 3- moved here for easier viewing.
> 
> Response to Lynsey-
> 
> ...


Thankyou for explaining further and trying to answer my questions Jesse. I want to share a bit about what I think.

I think in order to know what is sin and not sin, first we need to know what our understanding of "God" is. To me it's not an ego thing, it's absolution, it's all things connected, its unconditional compassion and love......it's mercy.....with the active strength aspect as compassionate action. Therefore anything that goes against the fact that we are all connected, or the law that everything we do effects everything else-that is sin and causes suffering. Acting out of greed and hatred and self interest is going against "God". So it depends on the definition of God, if you know what your definition is and why you follow that definition then you can decide what is sin or not because what is sin will go against your definition of God. What I've noticed is that alot of Christians just believe in a God -they have no idea who God is or why they believe -they just do. I just don't understand that.
Sure some, not all, other religions have books and guides etc-but they don't let the books answer all the questions for them without first thinking it through for themselves, alot of Christians-but not all- when faced with an tricky question where they can't give an answer, they just quote the bible.

I can appreciate we're all on our own journeys and still figuring stuff out and I know that you aren't like most Christians Jesse. You didn't quote the bible at anyone-you simply and honestly said that you're still figuring stuff out for yourself. That's cool.

Personally I think maybe Jack Black is God, wouldn't we all be so friggin happy if we all followed him? :mrgreen:


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2009)

delete oops.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

Matt210 said:


> Conjurus said:
> 
> 
> > If you could, please use the King James version of the Bible as that's what I use.
> ...


Well Matt it pretty much comes down to faith at that point. I ask myself, Do I believe in God? Well the answer is yes. So if I believe in God, do I believe that that God would leave me some kind of answers? Well again the answer for me is yes. Other than my own personal study of which version to use, there's not much to it other than that- just faith. We've all put our faith into something- I guess this is what I've put mine in. 

I do acknowledge that the Bible could have some incorrect or mis-translated information which is why I don't take it literally, but rather look for truths behind the stories. Again this rests on my belief that there is a God and that if there is a God he must have left me something.

As far as George Bush goes- he really didn't mess up until his second term. During his first term he had the highest approval rating of any president ever. It wasn't until his second term that we realized he had some sort of personal thing in Iraq- which I believe is due to oil or some other scheme of his. This is when his approval rating dropped to the lowest of any president, but he was already in his second term and it was too late.

Oh and as to why we need the Bible at all if we have the moral code written on our hearts- well it gives us answers, but most importantly, to me, is the story of Jesus. The bible is much more than just a book that tells you what to do.


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## Conjurus (Oct 25, 2008)

Spirit said:


> Conjurus said:
> 
> 
> > This was on page 3- moved here for easier viewing.
> ...


Yes with this it really does just come down to your own view of God. To be clear, I dont think my views are the right ones and everyone else's is the wrong ones. Like I said before, I think there's a universal truth and my views are just one way of looking at it. I like to present how I look at things so maybe people can get a better understanding of this viewpoint. I think organized religion that follows the Bible is pretty destructive to cause of real christianity and destructive to many other things.

Also, Matt I dont know why the U.S. has such a strong religious following. :?

Oh and I'm going to hopefully grow my hair like Jack Black's :mrgreen:


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

> matt210 wrote


I've never understood why it bothers Christians so much to accept evolution - perhaps you can answer that as a more open-minded Christian. The Bible is clearly a collection of fictional stories, but evolution doesn't deny the existence of God. It in fact opens a whole bunch of new possibilities about God. He set the whole world in motion and allowed this gigantic, mysterious collection of events to play out. His creations got better with practice - from single cell organisms all the way to human beings. Evolution says nothing about the existence of God, it just says that a story that someone made up thousands of years ago isn't true. I realize some people cling to their Bible quite tightly, but for those Christians who can acknowledge the Bible as fictional like it is, I don't understand why it matters. hold on there matt. the bible is not AT ALL fictional. only the parables told by Jesus were fictional. just like you say there is overwhelming evidence for evolution, there is even more evidence that the events in the Bible actually took place. 3/4s of the prophecies in the Bible have already come true exactly how the prophets said they would. So no you R wrong my friend in saying that the Bible is a bunch of fictional stories. :|


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

eduEDU1 said:


> the bible is not AT ALL fictional.


Out of curiosity, what level of education have you attained?


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

eduEDU1 said:


> hold on there matt. the bible is not AT ALL fictional. only the parables told by Jesus were fictional. just like you say there is overwhelming evidence for evolution, there is even more evidence that the events in the Bible actually took place. 3/4s of the prophecies in the Bible have already come true exactly how the prophets said they would. So no you R wrong my friend in saying that the Bible is a bunch of fictional stories. :|


 :? Historians have argued for years about whether or not Jesus even existed, let alone if a single word of the Bible is factual.

You can believe what you like, but science points to the Bible being fictional. In fact the general story in the Bible is actually recycled from old texts written long before the time when Jesus supposedly lived.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

egodeath said:


> eduEDU1 said:
> 
> 
> > the bible is not AT ALL fictional.
> ...


EGOTRIP, you just keep following me around this forum just to insult me, is that all you have to do with your time? GOSH!!! every time i post you show up with something negative, if you hate Christians and those who support the Bible so much, why dont you fly down to pakistan and join the Jehaad, they could use someone like you. :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

Refuting the theory of natural selection, as well as the idea that the Earth is only 5,000 years old, etc, would involve rejecting an insane amount of scientific evidence to the contrary--carbon dating, radiological measurements (I'm thinking Red Shift), etc. Just because the Bible has historical and scientific inaccuracies doesn't invalidate it; it isn't meant to be a historical or scientific document. It's about spirituality and morality. You can still take it as the word of God, even the literal word of God, but, as Spinoza argued, it has to be taken as the word of God in the historical and linguistic context during which it was revealed. That and God is allowed to use metaphors, too, is he not? You can be a good Christian and accept evolution. It would probably make you a smarter Christian.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

eduEDU1 said:


> egodeath said:
> 
> 
> > eduEDU1 said:
> ...


Chill Christnut. I was wondering what level of education you've attained, not to insult you, but to widen my perspective. I attend Georgetown, a Jesuit university, and I've run across lots of professors, some with more than one doctorate, who take the Bible literally, reject evolution, etc.

I was actually thinking about joining Hezbollah, but since I have an Israeli stamp on my passport I don't think they'd let me in.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

Matt210 said:


> eduEDU1 said:
> 
> 
> > hold on there matt. the bible is not AT ALL fictional. only the parables told by Jesus were fictional. just like you say there is overwhelming evidence for evolution, there is even more evidence that the events in the Bible actually took place. 3/4s of the prophecies in the Bible have already come true exactly how the prophets said they would. So no you R wrong my friend in saying that the Bible is a bunch of fictional stories. :|
> ...


yeah hence the old tesament and the new testament. your own "scientists" have proven events in the Bible that actually did happen, and Jesus' existence isnt just recorded in the Bible, its recorded in many roman texts including the crucifixion. not to be mean, but im starting to wonder where your getting your info from.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

eduEDU1 said:


> your own "scientists" have proven events in the Bible that actually did happen


Could you be more specific?


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

eduEDU1 said:


> egodeath said:
> 
> 
> > eduEDU1 said:
> ...


Chill Christnut. I was wondering what level of education you've attained, not to insult you, but to widen my perspective. I attend Georgetown, a Jesuit university, and I've run across lots of professors, some with more than one doctorate, who take the Bible literally, reject evolution, etc.

I was actually thinking about joining Hezbollah, but since I have an Israeli stamp on my passport I don't think they'd let me in.[/quote]
CHRISTNUT? are you kidding me? anyway im 19 and have a GED and can barely leave my house without having a panic attack from this stupid DP, much less attend some university. no i dont have a masters degree in anything. Just asking, why do you have so much bitterness towards God? did you have like radical christian parents who forced you to go to church and you ended up getting hurt by a so called "Christian" or something?, cause by the way you talk and by your posts, you seem to hate the idea of God.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

egodeath said:


> eduEDU1 said:
> 
> 
> > your own "scientists" have proven events in the Bible that actually did happen
> ...


I watch the History channel a lot.lol


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

eduEDU1 said:


> Just asking, why do you have so much bitterness towards God? did you have like radical christian parents who forced you to go to church and you ended up getting hurt by a so called "Christian" or something?, cause by the way you talk and by your posts, you seem to hate the idea of God.


I was born into a mostly secular Reform Jewish family. I actually don't hate the idea of God at all; I'm quite spiritual. But I've been raised to appreciate the value of empirical knowledge. I hate the abandonment of reason above all. Because of that I find all religions to have both merits and flaws. I also know that logic can be flawed and the human capacity to reason has its limitations. I don't hate the Bible, I don't hate Jesus, and I don't hate God. I just don't like it when anyone hands me a book and says, "Here is everything you need to know in order to lead a good life and be a good man." There's my problem. I can buy into the idea of a Creator. I think Jesus was a good man with a worthwhile message. But I cannot believe that he was risen from the dead and that he _literally_ died for man's sins.

It's a beautiful metaphor, but there are a lot of people out there who try to make it more than a metaphor, and that is problematic, as is interpreting age-old moral codes and trying to apply them to our modern situation: teenage girls who learn only that sex is bad, don't bother with contraceptives, and can't get abortions because they'll burn in hell; the inability to fund vital stem-cell research; the rejection (and subsequent eventual, but unnecessarily delayed acceptance of) ground-breaking discoveries such as Earth's not being the center of the universe, the Big Bang, etc, etc. I firmly believe that organized religion is inherently corrupt and so I refuse to subscribe. I try to be respectful, but it's hard when people preach things that are directly contrary to empirical research.

I'm sorry you think that I hate everyone who reads the Bible; I don't. And I get that your faith must be integral to your ability to cope with this disorder. But maybe you should open your mind to the possibility that a strict adherence to the Bible isn't the only path. I've considered becoming a Christian, but in the end, if I had to choose a label, I'd be a Buddhist. I have a lot of reading to do on that front, but Eastern philosophies are much more appealing to me.

There is no Truth. People with contradicting philosophies generally don't reach agreement. I'm not going to turn you into an empiricist and you're not going to "save" me. I'll continue to think you're a bit of a fanatic and you'll continue to think that my soul will burn in hell. But we can reach a peace. Isn't that what it's all about anyways?


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

egodeath said:


> eduEDU1 said:
> 
> 
> > Just asking, why do you have so much bitterness towards God? did you have like radical christian parents who forced you to go to church and you ended up getting hurt by a so called "Christian" or something?, cause by the way you talk and by your posts, you seem to hate the idea of God.
> ...


ok, i dont think you will "burn in hell" because you have questions or because you get an abortion. and no im not going to "save you" only Jesus can do that. the ONLY thing im trying to get accross is that we are all sinners. there is not one person on earth that has not sinned. Jesus certanly did have a worthwile message, but what made i significant is that he WILLINGLY was beaten and crucified for us. that dosent make me a fanatic. and as far as you refusing to believe that he rose from the dead, there were witnesses, his disciples who saw and spoke to him after he died.now why would 12 people devote the rest of their lives and later be martyrd for the purpose of preaching Jesus' gospel if he didnt rise from the dead. if he had not risen, then he wouldnt have been the messiah and there would be no new testament.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

eduEDU1 said:


> ok, i dont think you will "burn in hell" because you have questions or because you get an abortion. and no im not going to "save you" only Jesus can do that. the ONLY thing im trying to get accross is that we are all sinners. there is not one person on earth that has not sinned. Jesus certanly did have a worthwile message, but what made i significant is that he WILLINGLY was beaten and crucified for us. that dosent make me a fanatic. and as far as you refusing to believe that he rose from the dead, there were witnesses, his disciples who saw and spoke to him after he died.now why would 12 people devote the rest of their lives and later be martyrd for the purpose of preaching Jesus' gospel if he didnt rise from the dead. if he had not risen, then he wouldnt have been the messiah and there would be no new testament.


Your first argument is as follows:

[P1] Jesus died.
[P2] Twelve people saw Jesus alive following his death.
[P3] Those twelve devoted their lives to preaching Jesus' message.
[C] Jesus rose from the dead.

This argument is valid, but Premise 2 depends on the accuracy of the New Testament, which I understand you have complete faith in, but which I do not and Premise 3 does not contribute to the conclusion.

Your second argument follows the structure:

[P1] Jesus is the Messiah.
[P2] The New Testament exists.
[C] Jesus rose from the dead and is the Messiah.

This argument is guilty of the logical fallacy called _petitio principii_ or "Begging the question," in which the conclusion is implicit in the premise. If the argument were instead: "The New Testament says Jesus rose from the dead and is the Messiah," then it would be valid, but would still rest completely on faith in the New Testament's accuracy, which, like I said, I don't have.

Perhaps you can see why I'm so skeptical of Jesus' reanimation and position as the Messiah. I'm naturally inquisitive and generally epistemologically aware. I don't tend to believe things just because they're told to me and the Bible just doesn't do it for me. It takes blind faith and you obviously have that, but until I'm visited by Christ, I'm going to remain highly skeptical.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

egodeath said:


> eduEDU1 said:
> 
> 
> > ok, i dont think you will "burn in hell" because you have questions or because you get an abortion. and no im not going to "save you" only Jesus can do that. the ONLY thing im trying to get accross is that we are all sinners. there is not one person on earth that has not sinned. Jesus certanly did have a worthwile message, but what made i significant is that he WILLINGLY was beaten and crucified for us. that dosent make me a fanatic. and as far as you refusing to believe that he rose from the dead, there were witnesses, his disciples who saw and spoke to him after he died.now why would 12 people devote the rest of their lives and later be martyrd for the purpose of preaching Jesus' gospel if he didnt rise from the dead. if he had not risen, then he wouldnt have been the messiah and there would be no new testament.
> ...


and i completely understand because i was the same way before i gave my life to Christ, in fact, it was my extreme fear of dying and just ceasing to exist that I even decided to do it. I was so scared that there would be no God and there would be no life after death, that I did it out of desperation because i had seen how it had changed peoples lives and i didnt know why. im going to add you as a friend and send you a message explaining to you where my blind faith comes from. I will do it as soon as you post back on this thread. :wink:


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

eduEDU1 said:


> Matt210 said:
> 
> 
> > eduEDU1 said:
> ...


No one has proven that anything in the Bible happened. You can keep saying it, but it doesn't make it true.

Ever heard of the story of Horus? You might want to read into it because either Jesus or the Bible's authors had read it as well because they borrowed quite a bit from it.

Honestly, its one thing to have a different view than I do - Jesse and I had a debate in here, and it was civil and we both acknowledged we had different views. He doesn't think that the scientific evidence pointing to the bible being fiction is valid. I personally disagree. But its another thing to blatantly lie and say that the Bible has been proven by scientists to be true. Not only that but whether or not you took Ryan's comment as an insult (i don't think it was meant to me) you then made a completely ignorant and racist comment about Islam.

You have asked Ryan why he hates religion and religious people so much - he doesn't, but if you want to know why there is a hatred for religion you can look in the mirror as a start. How can you expect tolerance when you don't give any in return? For the record: I am an atheist and expect just as much tolerance as anyone else.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

Matt210 said:


> eduEDU1 said:
> 
> 
> > Matt210 said:
> ...


No one has proven that anything in the Bible happened. You can keep saying it, but it doesn't make it true.

Ever heard of the story of Horus? You might want to read into it because either Jesus or the Bible's authors had read it as well because they borrowed quite a bit from it.

Honestly, its one thing to have a different view than I do - Jesse and I had a debate in here, and it was civil and we both acknowledged we had different views. He doesn't think that the scientific evidence pointing to the bible being fiction is valid. I personally disagree. But its another thing to blatantly lie and say that the Bible has been proven by scientists to be true. Not only that but whether or not you took Ryan's comment as an insult (i don't think it was meant to me) you then made a completely ignorant and racist comment about Islam.

You have asked Ryan why he hates religion and religious people so much - he doesn't, but if you want to know why there is a hatred for religion you can look in the mirror as a start. How can you expect tolerance when you don't give any in return? For the record: I am an atheist and expect just as much tolerance as anyone else.[/quote]
me saying that science has proven events in the Bible was not a lie, you should do some research. and that comment wasnt directed at islam, it was directed at the jehaad who hate and slaughter anyone who dosent pray to allah. i dont know if your from america but there happened to be a little event in history called 9/11, which was actually shown, by God, to a pastor named Perry Stone, who drew a picture of the exact event happening 3 years before it happened and tried to warn the goverment but it was dismissed as religious bullcrap. but low and behold, it happened exactly the way Perry said it would. but that is a different story. I dont have intolerance to you or anyone else on here, you have a right to your own beliefs just like everyone else. and i have looked in the mirror, and i see a sinner who dosent get everything right, but i know that im forgiven so i dont beat myself up. and by the way, watch the history,discovery, and science channels more often. they have programs on there all the time about the bible.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

eduEDU1 said:


> me saying that science has proven events in the Bible was not a lie, you should do some research. and that comment wasnt directed at islam, it was directed at the jehaad who hate and slaughter anyone who dosent pray to allah. i dont know if your from america but there happened to be a little event in history called 9/11, which was actually shown, by God, to a pastor named Perry Stone, who drew a picture of the exact event happening 3 years before it happened and tried to warn the goverment but it was dismissed as religious bullcrap. but low and behold, it happened exactly the way Perry said it would. but that is a different story. I dont have intolerance to you or anyone else on here, you have a right to your own beliefs just like everyone else. and i have looked in the mirror, and i see a sinner who dosent get everything right, but i know that im forgiven so i dont beat myself up. and by the way, watch the history,discovery, and science channels more often. they have programs on there all the time about the bible.


I've actually done plenty of research on the subject. I believe the burden actually rests in your hands to prove to me that anything in the Bible is factual.

Just google 'Bible Inconsistencies' for proof that the Bible even contradicts itself - how do you justify the nearly 1000 contradictions in the book itself. If its true should the book not remain consistent?

www.cs.umd.edu/~mvz/bible/bible-inconsistencies.pd

www.bidstrup.com/bible2.htm


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

Matt210 said:


> eduEDU1 said:
> 
> 
> > me saying that science has proven events in the Bible was not a lie, you should do some research. and that comment wasnt directed at islam, it was directed at the jehaad who hate and slaughter anyone who dosent pray to allah. i dont know if your from america but there happened to be a little event in history called 9/11, which was actually shown, by God, to a pastor named Perry Stone, who drew a picture of the exact event happening 3 years before it happened and tried to warn the goverment but it was dismissed as religious bullcrap. but low and behold, it happened exactly the way Perry said it would. but that is a different story. I dont have intolerance to you or anyone else on here, you have a right to your own beliefs just like everyone else. and i have looked in the mirror, and i see a sinner who dosent get everything right, but i know that im forgiven so i dont beat myself up. and by the way, watch the history,discovery, and science channels more often. they have programs on there all the time about the bible.
> ...


http://www.newcreationstudies.org/NewCr ... archeology why dont you take a look at this. you can interpret the bible any way you want to fashion it as fiction, but there is no subjectiveness with proof.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

Edu you are, as I thought before, forcing your beliefs onto people. People will find their own truths when they are ready, it's they're journey. You are also very black and white....simply because certain people do not see things exactly how you do doesn't mean they are Anti-God or are not Spiritual people or that they hate God. We also do not personally attack people in this section with name calling, you and everybody else here is capable of debating without making it personal. You want tolerance but you need to have some tolerance for others beliefs also. It's fine for us all to share our experiences and our beliefs but to try and present it as fact and to try to force it onto people....will only lead to trouble. If you are 100 percent sure of your beliefs and experiences, it is not necessary for everybody to have to believe you, people don't have to, you have to learn to accept that without thinking that people are personally attacking you.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

Matt210 said:


> eduEDU1 said:
> 
> 
> > me saying that science has proven events in the Bible was not a lie, you should do some research. and that comment wasnt directed at islam, it was directed at the jehaad who hate and slaughter anyone who dosent pray to allah. i dont know if your from america but there happened to be a little event in history called 9/11, which was actually shown, by God, to a pastor named Perry Stone, who drew a picture of the exact event happening 3 years before it happened and tried to warn the goverment but it was dismissed as religious bullcrap. but low and behold, it happened exactly the way Perry said it would. but that is a different story. I dont have intolerance to you or anyone else on here, you have a right to your own beliefs just like everyone else. and i have looked in the mirror, and i see a sinner who dosent get everything right, but i know that im forgiven so i dont beat myself up. and by the way, watch the history,discovery, and science channels more often. they have programs on there all the time about the bible.
> ...


http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/b_proof.shtml also have a look at this.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

http://www.biblelife.org/creation.htm here you go matt


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/hist ... us-faq.htm here matt


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

Spirit said:


> Edu you are, as I thought before, forcing your beliefs onto people. People will find their own truths when they are ready, it's they're journey. You are also very black and white....simply because certain people do not see things exactly how you do doesn't mean they are Anti-God or are not Spiritual people or that they hate God. We also do not personally attack people in this section with name calling, you and everybody else here is capable of debating without making it personal. You want tolerance but you need to have some tolerance for others beliefs also. It's fine for us all to share our experiences and our beliefs but to try and present it as fact and to try to force it onto people....will only lead to trouble. If you are 100 percent sure of your beliefs and experiences, it is not necessary for everybody to have to believe you, people don't have to, you have to learn to accept that without thinking that people are personally attacking you.


dude how am i forcing anything on anyone? im just sharing my opinions like everyone else.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

eduEDU1 said:


> Spirit said:
> 
> 
> > Edu you are, as I thought before, forcing your beliefs onto people. People will find their own truths when they are ready, it's they're journey. You are also very black and white....simply because certain people do not see things exactly how you do doesn't mean they are Anti-God or are not Spiritual people or that they hate God. We also do not personally attack people in this section with name calling, you and everybody else here is capable of debating without making it personal. You want tolerance but you need to have some tolerance for others beliefs also. It's fine for us all to share our experiences and our beliefs but to try and present it as fact and to try to force it onto people....will only lead to trouble. If you are 100 percent sure of your beliefs and experiences, it is not necessary for everybody to have to believe you, people don't have to, you have to learn to accept that without thinking that people are personally attacking you.
> ...


You're sort of insisting that everyone believe you or else according to you -everyone is against God or hates God or is bashing you. That's not true. We are prepared to listen to your opinions and beliefs but you do not seem capable of accepting that others may belief differently to yourself and that it is their human right to do so and that it doesn't mean that we have anything personal against you as a person. For instance You called Ryan EGOTRIP, that''s just rude, simply because he doesn't believe everything you say or he has an opinion of his own. Thats a little more than "just sharing your opinions" on the given topic of debate. Don't make it personal. You're not just sharing your beliefs, you are arguing them forcibly over and over again.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

Do you know the difference between a scientific source and a christian website? I would hardly expect All About Jesus and Bible Life to present objective information.

I honestly don't know what we are debating. I have already stated earlier in the thread that historians argue back and forth about the existence of Jesus. It is certainly possible Jesus existed. I personally feel it is unlikely, but it is possible. But even if Jesus does exist that does not make the bible factual! The stories of the Bible were written many years later, and I honestly don't even think many of them were even meant to be factual.

I am never one to back down from stating facts simply because a religious person doesn't agree with it. Science does not support the Bible being fact. That is fact. It is not a dispute. I will keep saying this over and over again.

Does this mean that the Bible has to be fiction? No. It is certainly possible to believe that science got it wrong. Jesse correctly pointed out that science has been wrong before. With history it is difficult to tell what did and what did not happen. This also does not mean that there is no scientist in the world that believes the bible is factual - i'm sure there are plenty. What it means is that the scientific community as a whole, and the largest body of scientific evidence points towards it being fiction.

*And most importantly *: Does the Bible being fiction mean its messages should be discounted? *Absolutely not.* Does the bible being fiction disprove the existence of God? *Absolutely not.* I was raised a Catholic and talked with several incredible priests who believed that much of the bible (all of the old testament, and most of the new testament - outside of the existence of Jesus) was a crock of shit. It didn't change anything for them and their relationship with God. It also didn't stop them from preaching from the Bible or telling its stories. They knew that stories were as good a way of getting across a message, and I don't even disagree with that. But time and time again I encounter Christians who won't even entertain the possibility, that maybe - just maybe the Bible is a fictional story.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

Spirit said:


> eduEDU1 said:
> 
> 
> > Spirit said:
> ...


im sorry for calling him egotrip but it seemed that every time i posted something he would insult me, for instance, he said "edu come on over here, ive got a one way 12 guage ticket to the kingdom for you in the barrel of my benneli". what does that sound like to you? if yall think im forcing my beliefs on people then im not intentionally doing it and im sorry. I do NOT have anything against anyone with different views, in fact im interesting in hearing what others have to say, and that is the truth. I only believe what i do because i had a supernatural experience when i gave my life to Christ, and it was the best experience ive ever had. God actually gave me PROOF that he existed. when i asked Jesus into my heart, i felt the most warm, loving, peacefull sensation shoot through my body and immediatly started balling out of the blue, but they were tears of absolute joy, my Dad had to hold me up because i didnt have the strentgh to stand. and prior to that experience (in my aunts living room) i was the biggest pothead you would ever meet. and the reason i decided to do it in the first place was my extreme fear of dying and there being no afterlife, just ceasing to exist. I think that is why God chose to give me that experience, so i would have the proof that i wanted. but that experience is why im so strong in believing the Bible, because there was no explanation for that except something supernatural happening. im sincerely not trying to force my beliefs on anyone though.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

Matt210 said:



> Do you know the difference between a scientific source and a christian website? I would hardly expect All About Jesus and Bible Life to present objective information.
> 
> I honestly don't know what we are debating. I have already stated earlier in the thread that historians argue back and forth about the existence of Jesus. It is certainly possible Jesus existed. I personally feel it is unlikely, but it is possible. But even if Jesus does exist that does not make the bible factual! The stories of the Bible were written many years later, and I honestly don't even think many of them were even meant to be factual.
> 
> ...


you encounter those Christians who wont except it as fictional because when people ask Jesus into their hearts, and they truly mean it in there hearts, it is a life changing experience. you can sense that someone lives inside of you and you just somehow know it is true.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

I really am glad that you have something that gives your life meaning.

Even as an atheist who believes its likely that its all just over when you die, I have meaning in my life as well. I'd like to believe in something more, but its just not in the cards for me. To believe that would mean not being true to myself. As I have mentioned, I was raised in a religious family - and as soon as I became old enough to start questioning what my parents told me - religion didn't feel RIGHT to me. Just like i'm sure it feels right for you.

One thing I believe in my heart is that if there is a good and just God out there somewhere, what will matter most is not what you believe - but how you act in this life. I live by a moral code and I try my best to do good in this world. I have also seen many believers do many horrible things and some in the name of religion. I think the key point whether religious or not is to do good in this world.

As for your second post: I don't understand why God & Jesus existing and the Bible being fiction can't both be true.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

eduEDU1 said:


> im sorry for calling him egotrip but it seemed that every time i posted something he would insult me, for instance, he said "edu come on over here, ive got a one way 12 guage ticket to the kingdom for you in the barrel of my benneli". what does that sound like to you? if yall think im forcing my beliefs on people then im not intentionally doing it and im sorry. I do NOT have anything against anyone with different views, in fact im interesting in hearing what others have to say, and that is the truth. I only believe what i do because i had a supernatural experience when i gave my life to Christ, and it was the best experience ive ever had. God actually gave me PROOF that he existed. when i asked Jesus into my heart, i felt the most warm, loving, peacefull sensation shoot through my body and immediatly started balling out of the blue, but they were tears of absolute joy, my Dad had to hold me up because i didnt have the strentgh to stand. and prior to that experience (in my aunts living room) i was the biggest pothead you would ever meet. and the reason i decided to do it in the first place was my extreme fear of dying and there being no afterlife, just ceasing to exist. I think that is why God chose to give me that experience, so i would have the proof that i wanted. but that experience is why im so strong in believing the Bible, because there was no explanation for that except something supernatural happening. im sincerely not trying to force my beliefs on anyone though.


I have had my own experiences also, awaesome experiences, but I don't think they invalidate anyone elses opinions or they're personal experiences or beliefs. I also don't need to tell everyone about them or for them to have to believe me-if I shouted about my experiences it would almost just make them egotistical.
You have to live with your experience and use it in positive ways accepting that not everyone will believe it or think the same or accept you for it. You know some people will suggest that your experience could be psychological or find a hundred other possible explanations...because they don't believe and you couldn't prove otherwise and you never will and you know what...that's just life. People could and have said the same about my own experiences..so what? I know they are real and I don't mind if anyone doesn't accept them or believe them. I also don't see my experiences as being "supernatural" if you believe God is real...then why is it supernatural, what makes it incredible? If God is real.....then it's a perfectly natural experience. Also just because you have proof doesn't mean that will others will accept it, I hate blind faith, I can't blame others for not believing things that have happened to me and they shouldn't believe without their own proof in my opinion otherwise it's just blind faith and or some faulty way of dealing with their problems.

I do however understand and share in your conviction, totally and thankyou for sharing your experience. :wink:


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

Matt210 said:


> I really am glad that you have something that gives your life meaning.
> 
> Even as an atheist who believes its likely that its all just over when you die, I have meaning in my life as well. I'd like to believe in something more, but its just not in the cards for me. To believe that would mean not being true to myself. As I have mentioned, I was raised in a religious family - and as soon as I became old enough to start questioning what my parents told me - religion didn't feel RIGHT to me. Just like i'm sure it feels right for you.
> 
> ...


i understand your position and im glad you have found peace with this. if i hadent had the amazing experience that i had, i would prolly be an athiest too. and yes it is good to do good works while were here, even the bible sais that faith without works is dead. meaning that if you gave your life to Christ and something inside you didnt change, then you prolly werent truely saved cause when it really does happen, your whole being changes. you start to feel love for people you used to hate, you realize easier when youve sinned, and you just feel like some thing or someone is guiding you and speaking to you at all times. but anyway, im gonna ask you a question and i hope it dosent offend you. do you ever wonder if you really have a soul and if there should happen to be an afterlife, wouldnt you rather be safe than sorry?


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

Spirit said:


> eduEDU1 said:
> 
> 
> > im sorry for calling him egotrip but it seemed that every time i posted something he would insult me, for instance, he said "edu come on over here, ive got a one way 12 guage ticket to the kingdom for you in the barrel of my benneli". what does that sound like to you? if yall think im forcing my beliefs on people then im not intentionally doing it and im sorry. I do NOT have anything against anyone with different views, in fact im interesting in hearing what others have to say, and that is the truth. I only believe what i do because i had a supernatural experience when i gave my life to Christ, and it was the best experience ive ever had. God actually gave me PROOF that he existed. when i asked Jesus into my heart, i felt the most warm, loving, peacefull sensation shoot through my body and immediatly started balling out of the blue, but they were tears of absolute joy, my Dad had to hold me up because i didnt have the strentgh to stand. and prior to that experience (in my aunts living room) i was the biggest pothead you would ever meet. and the reason i decided to do it in the first place was my extreme fear of dying and there being no afterlife, just ceasing to exist. I think that is why God chose to give me that experience, so i would have the proof that i wanted. but that experience is why im so strong in believing the Bible, because there was no explanation for that except something supernatural happening. im sincerely not trying to force my beliefs on anyone though.
> ...


yeah dude, it dosent matter if you tell someone about it, it dosent matter what they think, you know what it was and no one can take that away from you. but, i guess i just feel the need to share my experiences because if there is a heaven and hell, i would rather see in heaven then get there and say wher is so and so, and God tells me, they are not here. I hate the idea of anyone going to hell. it makes me sad sometimes when i think that people might already be down there suffering forever when they could have done something so simple and ended up in the greatest place ever created. thats the reason i share my beliefs so strongly. I just dont want to know that people ive talked to are down there suffering, thats all.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

eduEDU1 said:


> Matt210 said:
> 
> 
> > I really am glad that you have something that gives your life meaning.
> ...


As i've said - if I do good things all my life, and there is a God out there that doesn't think thats enough and is going to send me to hell just because I didn't believe in him despite him leaving absolutely no objective proof of his existence - that is not a just God, and I will gladly go to hell. That God is officially an awful person if he sends good people to hell.

I believe if there is a God worth believing in, he will look for good deeds in life - not belief in him.

I don't feel threatened by the idea of hell at all. I don't deserve to be in hell, and neither do the vast majority of non-believers I know. Not that I'm one to be passing judgement on where anyone should spend eternity, but i'd say of the people I know - if any of them are going to hell it would mostly be the believers who pass extreme and wrongful judgements on homosexuals, those who choose to have abortions, other religions, etc.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

eduEDU1 said:


> do you ever wonder if you really have a soul and if there should happen to be an afterlife, wouldnt you rather be safe than sorry?


I want to answer even though it's not my question. If there is an afterlife....then there is...the truth is the truth whether you believe it or not, if that's not so then the whole of the truth according to any religion is a lie. Believing in a truth isn't what makes a truth real, truth is truth so not believing it doesn't make it unreal either. You are a victim of Christian scare mongering.....

To your last post, I do not believe in a heaven or a hell that are somewhere else other than here now. As far as I'm concerned I've been through hell and come out the other side. Hell is suffering and I do not believe that a Just God sends people to some Hell- that sounds like the holy sugar daddy making his kids sit on the naughty step or something only ten thousand times worse..You see the contradictions...A just and mercifull god doesn't do such as thing. These ideas were created to scare people into believing in Christianity because back then Christianity was the politics of their time and we all know how corrupt politics can be....
The ideas of heaven and hell create suffering.........Oh yes they do, look at them....people fearing hell...that's not spiritual again it's Christian scare mongering.
And you yourself are sitting there judging who is going to hell and who is not-yet does your religion teach you to judge others.....No.

I also, despite my conviction,experiences and beliefs, do not believe that anybody needs to be saved....there is only the illusion of imperfection caused by egotistic ideas....Man creates his own suffering through his ego and is perfectly capable of reversing that process himself and of acting more in accordance with that knowledge, of living a good life where he doesn't cause or inflict suffering.......that again does not make God unreal, it's not black or white..... To my mind being truly "saved", for want of better less putrefying words, means you know that. You realise what you truly are and always was.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

Matt210 said:


> eduEDU1 said:
> 
> 
> > Matt210 said:
> ...


did you know that God doesent SEND anyone to hell? we send ourselves there because sin cannot enter heaven, hence the reason Jesus came. we ask him to forgive us of anything that was wrong and thats it, he forgives and LITERALLY forgets it. but on the subject of homosexuality, does anything about it seem natural? we'll do this your way in the logical sense. a man and a man cant reproduce, when they have sex, its in the butthole. I mean nothing about it is natural.


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## Garjon (Apr 4, 2009)

If I may interject here, I think all of you are wasting your time on this debate. Everyone is going to believe what they want to and no one's mind is going to be changed unless it is on their own so it's a little pointless to get into these circular arguments. None of us were around during the Bible times, none of us know for a fact whether any of it happened or didn't happen. No one was around when the world was created (if it was created at all) so any theory explaining how the world began may or may not be true. Obviously things are evolving, but even evolutionists don't know how the world began. So basically no one knows, and whatever makes you sleep better at night is what you should stick with. We do, however, all seem to have this sense of moral obligation and i think this is the most important thing to factor in. Most people acknowledge right and wrong even though there are disagreements about this as well in some areas but they recognize the basics anyway. If there is a God and he is the God of the Christians, I think you can still follow him without believing in him. If there isn't a God, who cares, we'll all rot in the ground and we won't have a conscious mind to comprehend any of it anyway.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

eduEDU1 said:


> did you know that God doesent SEND anyone to hell? we send ourselves there because sin cannot enter heaven, hence the reason Jesus came. we ask him to forgive us of anything that was wrong and thats it, he forgives and LITERALLY forgets it. but on the subject of homosexuality, does anything about it seem natural? we'll do this your way in the logical sense. a man and a man cant reproduce, when they have sex, its in the butthole. I mean nothing about it is natural.


Ok, we're done having this debate. You are telling me things as if they are facts, not opinion. You don't know any more than me about what happens after death so try opening sentences with "I believe" or "I think this might be what will happen" not "Did you know".

Secondly, the homosexuality thing is just offensive - for the second time in this thread I have found myself personally offended by you - I'm not gay, and I still find that offensive. You haven't done enough to warrant judgment based on your views of Islam or homosexuality but I think its clear what a little more prying would bring up. Let me just say this: If a just God does indeed exist, intolerance towards others should be sin #1 in his books. If sin and heaven and hell are concerns to you i'd spend more time worrying about this and not whether or not the bible is real, and jesus is 'in your heart'.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2009)

Matt210 said:


> eduEDU1 said:
> 
> 
> > did you know that God doesent SEND anyone to hell? we send ourselves there because sin cannot enter heaven, hence the reason Jesus came. we ask him to forgive us of anything that was wrong and thats it, he forgives and LITERALLY forgets it. but on the subject of homosexuality, does anything about it seem natural? we'll do this your way in the logical sense. a man and a man cant reproduce, when they have sex, its in the butthole. I mean nothing about it is natural.
> ...


alright whatever my friend, ive tried to say things in a nice way, but it is obvious that you have no clue what you're talking about, in fact i dont believe you've done any research on anything and that you just make stuff up as you go along. if i was offending you, whatever, because nothing you have said is moral or gives anyone any hope!!!. telling people that after they suffer with DP/DR here, they just die and cease to exist. that message is not at all positive and that in itself could ruin the hope of someone with this disorder, to get them thinking that after they suffer through this thing, that they went through it in vain. YOU TELL ME HOW THAT IS SUPPOSED TO HELP ANYBODY!!!. you can choose what you want and "gladly go to hell because a just God wouldnt let you into heaven because you were a "good" person" all I have left to say is that when you get there, dont blame God, blame yourself because you heard the truth time time again but continued to reject it. and if you go on preaching to people that there is no God or afterlife, there will probably be more suicides than need be. "DEBATE" over.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

eduEDU1 said:


> alright whatever my friend, ive tried to say things in a nice way


No you haven't, you have said things in an arrogant and condescending way.



eduEDU1 said:


> , but it is obvious that you have no clue what you're talking about, in fact i dont believe you've done any research on anything and that you just make stuff up as you go along.


Right. I'll be sure to spend more of my time checking out www.youllgotohellwithoutjesus.com for some more insightful and objective information on how the world is.



eduEDU1 said:


> If i was offending you, whatever, because nothing you have said is moral or gives anyone any hope!!!. telling people that after they suffer with DP/DR here, they just die and cease to exist. that message is not at all positive and that in itself could ruin the hope of someone with this disorder, to get them thinking that after they suffer through this thing, that they went through it in vain. YOU TELL ME HOW THAT IS SUPPOSED TO HELP ANYBODY!!!


What have I said that is immoral? You are the one with homophobic and islamophobic comments on the tip of your tongue. Unlike you, i'm not telling anyone here what they should believe. I stated my personal view about what happens after death - that has nothing to do with DP. I plan on making the most of my life. I can tell you that after you die you go to a land of rainbow and unicorns and sugar plum fairies and it might make you feel better but what does that matter if its not true?



eduEDU1 said:


> you can choose what you want and "gladly go to hell because a just God wouldnt let you into heaven because you were a "good" person" all I have left to say is that when you get there, dont blame God, blame yourself because you heard the truth time time again but continued to reject it. and if you go on preaching to people that there is no God or afterlife, there will probably be more suicides than need be. "DEBATE" over.


I find it quite humorous that you say you don't pass judgement on other people's beliefs here, but make it clear that you think that if I don't believe in God and Jesus that you think I will go to hell. You do realize there are hundreds of religions in the world right? You are putting your eggs in Christianity's basket. But what happens if you are standing in front of Allah when you die? You had better hope the same thing I hope - that you are judged based on your life actions, otherwise its off to the basement for you.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

Calm

Down


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

egodeath said:


> Calm
> 
> Down


Believe it or not, I am being calm right now compared to how I would be acting if someone pulled this on me in life. I have no tolerance for religious arrogance.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2009)

Matt210 said:


> eduEDU1 said:
> 
> 
> > alright whatever my friend, ive tried to say things in a nice way
> ...


you no what man, im sorry, please forgive me man. I just got a little angry there for a second and im sorry. I just put my eggs in Christianities basket because when I asked Jesus into my heart out of desperation for awnsers, i had an incredible experience that i can only describe as Supernatural. i wasnt hallucinating or anything, i just felt this incredible heat flow through my body that drained my strength so that i could not even stand and I cried for joy for about 2 straight hours and felt an indescribable peace. it felt like love itself was penetrating my body and OH MAN if I could pay money to feel that again, i would do it in a heartbeat. but that is how i know that Christianity is true because I didnt ask allah into my heart. but that is why i believe it so strongly. there was no explanation for that except that Jesus entered my heart and touched me. and im not islamophobic im jehaadophobic.most muslims are peaceful people, im talking about people like osama bin laden and the jehaad who want to wipe out all jews and all other faiths. again man, im sorry for getting angry.


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

Look, i'm prone to getting snappy with things like this. Let's just say it was a misunderstanding and move on.

I'm not interested in getting into a religious debate anyways, sometimes I just can't help myself.

As I said before, I am quite happy for your experience. I haven't had a similar experience, and i'm not expecting one or looking for one - i'm happy. You sound happy too. That is all that matters.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2009)

Matt210 said:


> Look, i'm prone to getting snappy with things like this. Let's just say it was a misunderstanding and move on.
> 
> I'm not interested in getting into a religious debate anyways, sometimes I just can't help myself.
> 
> As I said before, I am quite happy for your experience. I haven't had a similar experience, and i'm not expecting one or looking for one - i'm happy. You sound happy too. That is all that matters.


ok man sounds good. id be really happy though if this DP went away and i felt like i existed again. but thats out of my hands. and im glad ur happy. i hope you dont mind if i pray for you. :wink:


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2009)

Wow, I think enough has been said so I won't add to this fruitless debate and if it carries on with the same tone I would ask a moderator to lock it. Homophobia of any kind is not tolerable no matter how "nicely" you put it. One thing I will say Edu, Matt has brought ALOT of positivity and hope to people on this forum and I won't hear you or anyone else say otherwise. End of.

There's alot of people suffering on this forum, lets all try to be tolerable of eachother and get along the best we can.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2009)

> There's alot of people suffering on this forum, lets all try to be tolerable of eachother and get along the best we can.


sure man. and yes there is a lot of people suffering here, we all pretty much know how each other is feeling or has felt so lets try to comfort each other. :wink:


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## Guest (May 3, 2009)

> None of the stories in the Bible actually happened was my point.


if none of the stories in the Bible actually happened, then how come in not many years after Jesus said that the temple in Jeruselum would be destroyed, and not one stone would be left apon another, it actually happened, and is still there today, destroyed. just one example. :wink:


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## Guest (May 3, 2009)

Deleted....Changed my mind...


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## Guest (May 3, 2009)

Spirit said:


> Deleted....Changed my mind...


what? :?:


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

Of course God hears us, the problem is simply that by the time our words reach him over a hundred years have gone by and were dead.


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## Guest (May 3, 2009)

eduEDU1 said:


> Spirit said:
> 
> 
> > Deleted....Changed my mind...
> ...


If I had wanted anyone to read it I wouldn't have deleted it, don't take everything so personally. :wink:


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## Guest (May 3, 2009)

Spirit said:


> eduEDU1 said:
> 
> 
> > Spirit said:
> ...


naw man "deleted...changed my mind..." just seemed kind of random, i was just asking what you deleted and what you changed your mind about. i just didnt know what you meant. :wink:


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## Guest (May 3, 2009)

surfingisfun001 said:


> Of course God hears us, the problem is simply that by the time our words reach him over a hundred years have gone by and were dead.


naw man God hears us instantly, and he gives us one of 3 awnsers, yes, no, or wait. :wink:


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

Is it selfish to pray to God for deliverance from something like DP/DR when women and children in Somolia are being torn apart by automatic gunfire, the Sudanese are starving, innocent men are rotting in prison, and people in the deepest throes of depression are considering suicide? Shouldn't we be doing something for them instead of wallowing in our own misery?

And now, a fable my friend told me in the middle of a long, long night:

A barber and a priest are walking and they pass a ragged homeless man covered in grime, with hair down to his ankles. 
--?Proof,? the barber says to the priest, that there is no God. 
=?You really are a horrible barber,? the priest replies. 
--?What? Why?? asks the barber. 
=?Did you see how long that poor man?s hair was?? the priest says.
--?Yes, well, he can come to me at any time,? the barber answers, flustered.
=?Exactly.?


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## Matt210 (Aug 15, 2004)

egodeath said:


> Is it selfish to pray to God for deliverance from something like DP/DR when women and children in Somolia are being torn apart by automatic gunfire, the Sudanese are starving, innocent men are rotting in prison, and people in the deepest throes of depression are considering suicide? Shouldn't we be doing something for them instead of wallowing in our own misery?
> 
> And now, a fable my friend told me in the middle of a long, long night:
> 
> ...


The first part: I think suffering is relative. I'm not saying I would trade places with someone in Sudan right now - absolutely not. But that does not mean I am selfish for being unhappy with my current situation. Of course we should be doing something to help anyone we can, but it is also wrong of people to suggest that DP/DR is not cause for complaint. It's interesting you use depression in your example because depression is often used in the exact same way as you used DP/DR (i know you were just asking the question, not stating a belief of course) - people say that people are starving in other countries, why can't you just be happy?

The second part: Again, what kind of god would let a person suffer like just because they don't believe in him or come to him? This reminds me more of those ridiculous faith healers who claim that the people who don't get healed by their outrageous stage performances are just too skeptical and aren't really reaching out to god.


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## egodeath (Oct 27, 2008)

Concerning the second part...the barber stated that the homeless man could come to him at any time he wanted; well if that were so, and the homeless man could go to _anyone_ any time he wanted, then his situation wouldn't be so bad at all. So if believing in God makes you a better person, and everyone gives freely, then society would be transformed into a utopia. That's the point; not that God's door is always open. God is in you. God is kindness.


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## Guest (May 4, 2009)

egodeath said:


> God is in you. God is kindness.


Yes, loving kindness.


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## HereIsEverywhere (Dec 22, 2008)

egodeath said:


> Concerning the second part...the barber stated that the homeless man could come to him at any time he wanted; well if that were so, and the homeless man could go to _anyone_ any time he wanted, then his situation wouldn't be so bad at all. So if believing in God makes you a better person, and everyone gives freely, then society would be transformed into a utopia. That's the point; not that God's door is always open. God is in you. God is kindness.


I like the idea that God is something internal. That is the problem for me with many organized religions is the perpetuation of the belief that they have some sort of monopoly on God. You must believe in our way, come to our "house", bathe in our blessed waters, put 10% of your income in this basket, drink our kool-aid, convince others to do the same, (etc) to have God in your life. Sometimes it works, and good people come out of this system. Sometimes it doesn't and you get people that get really good at pretending to be good, like all the con-artist evangelists wearing diamond encrusted rings, or even the every day people that go to church while they do all sorts of horrible things in private.

No. Absolutely not. I don't buy it.


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## Jondalar (May 14, 2009)

No. If he does, he doesn't care. I've been in prayer since I was very young. Now I don't believe anymore. It's pretty obvious God is a man-made creation.


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