# Dp as attachement to rather than an detachement from reality



## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

I'm not sure whether this is actually going to make any sense or whether it's just me rambling.

We all know that DP/DR _feels_ like a complete detachement from oneself or reality, and I don't think that's up for much dispute. It makes you feel less than real, you feel like you've lost yourself or reality and that it's never going to come back. It just feels downright weird.

But can DP ever _represent_ - though not actually feel like - reality "breaking through"? This is certainly how it's felt for me, recently especially.

Six months ago I thought I was mentally very strong. I though I was a "rock", mentally very much stable and secure, and that I was confident, capable of doing pretty much anything and so on. When real experience seemed to conflict with this view, I'd always "excuse it away" - if I was shy that wasn't the "real me"; if I got inordinately "hung up" over something relatively minor then that was just an aberration. I thought of myself as having always been this way. And, moreover, that somehow I had to be or should be this way.

Ironically, perhaps the self-delusion of thinking that I was a strong and secure person was in fact a manifestion of my actual weakness.

These days, I have DP, anxiety, depression and the like - although such labels don't really "fit" me too well in themselves - and, though I _feel_ very much divorced from myself and the world; in many ways, I am actually thinking much more in the "frame" of the "real me". I'm not a strong person at all; looking back at things now, in fact, I remember, though sometimes having the "front" of a cheeky joker I was, in reality, a very shy, insecure, sad and probably quite inadequate person. This might explain why I was often so preoccuptied with the world of fiction - excessively playing computer games, reading, or watching TV - instead of my own life. Such things weren't merely entertainment, or simple escapism for me, but instead mediums in which I could avoid the "real me" and the "real world" as much as possible.

This depersonalization feels like an utter detachement from myself and the world, and in many ways it is just that. But, sometimes, I think it's more of a representation of me coming to terms with who I actually am as opposed to who I wish I am or once thought I was, as if it's a symptom of some underlying psychological conflict that I'm trying to resolve.

So could DP represent - if not _feel_ like - a closer attachement to rather than a detachement from reality?

I'm most probably talking nonesense. I really don't know these days. I certainly don't want to suggest that this is what DP's like for everyone; it just seems to apply to me, and maybe to some others as well.

Is there even a grain of truth in this?


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2005)

I agree with you completely, but you're right - this is rather esoteric stuff - and I want to add for anyone else reading this that I am NOT saying that dp is "reality" in the sense that this is NOT what reality "feels like."

But MonkeyD is correct. DP is often a symbol for something VERY wrong in the Ego field. The symptom often arises when parts of reality (and parts of ourselves) are no longer "jiving" for us - when the way we're put together our delusions and fantasies about life are all exploding. It's when we see how our view and the REAL view differ.

THat's why this often happens to us when we're "in between life phases" - like we are getting ready to go to college, or just graduating and ready to enter the world. Or having a child, or getting married. We are entering some new sphere of reality and of our life that we can no longer master in the way we used to juggle things. Our FANTASIES are failing us. And more often than not, they are fantasies about ourselves that are just finally up.

Stuff we did not want to face, stuff we can no longer juggle in the masks we wear or the rose colored lens we choose to use - SOMEthing is amiss. And often, yes, dp arrives when reality is trying to break IN - and we say "oh, no you don't" and we implode - to hide.

Peace,
Janine


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## Scattered (Mar 8, 2005)

I'm sorry if this is off topic. But do we really have to have a strong ego to be competent individuals? Do we need to have a strong sense of self in order to be happy? Isn't there a way to realize that while we may be transient aggregations of thoughts and ideas, we can accept this and still live in the world and enjoy it?

I'm sure the whole purpose of psychotherapy is to build up the ego and allow that ego to then meet the challenges of the world. I'm not saying DP is right when it makes us seem like we don't exist. I'm saying DP may be a gross exaggeration of a truth that isn't as horrible as we may think it is, when viewed in its proper perspective. When viewed as a horrendous realization that we are disintegrating in some way then this is negative and should be discarded. But whose to say that we aren't fluid and always changing beings, where a real "self" can never be pinned down?


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## Depersonalized (Feb 11, 2005)

In Budhism DP is reffered to as a condition of enlightment, thats exactly what it feels like. I am not saying that DP is something to what all humans evolve, some get there earlier some later, but I am sure that each one of us on this planet has to go through DP someday. It makes things shine differently, gives you a whole a new prespective about life, death and many more things. Yes it can be very frightful, I guess it is something we need to overcome.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Depersonalized said:


> In Budhism DP is reffered to as a condition of enlightment, thats exactly what it feels like. I am not saying that DP is something to what all humans evolve, some get there earlier some later, but I am sure that each one of us on this planet has to go through DP someday. It makes things shine differently, gives you a whole a new prespective about life, death and many more things. Yes it can be very frightful, I guess it is something we need to overcome.


Just had to put in my two cents on this. As I have mentioned, the past four months I have been in group therapy, Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, and I'll find the link to it in a mo, but it is a combo of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy w/a dash of Thich Naht Hahn's Buddhist practice thrown in (he is one monk quoted most).

Mindfulness, to the very best of my understanding, is *not DP*, not this horror we experience. I think the words get jumbled up. Psychiatric terms, philosophical terms, lay terms.

Just a few quotations:

*"For minds obsessed by compulsive thinking and grasping, you simplify your meditation practices to just two words -- 'let go'"
- Ajahn Sumedho -*

The way we use this in DBT is, when your mind is racing, full of useless, negative thoughts, let them pass. Let them be like a waterfall. You can observe them, but don't "cling" to them. You condition yourself (and it takes PRACTICE, WORK, PRACTICE, WORK...........even a billion times a day) to refocus your mind.

This works specifically on THOUGHTS. I can't really "let go" of the DP. But I will say, oddly enough, I am even slightly less bothered by the DP. What I have always said, since 15 and diagnosed was "this is an illness." So I repeat that, and go about my business. I HAVE spent time in therapy seeing where destructive patterns COME FROM, but at the same time (had I started 30 years ago with DBT) I could have used SKILLS to make life less miserable.

I know this sounds so simplistic, and it IS. You must acknowledge what you are doing to yourself. How your thinking isn't "bad" but "not helpful", how a feeling is not a behavior, how you can ACT on a feeling without being self-destructive, etc.

*"Consciousness is in the first place not a matter of 'I think' but of 'I can'.
Maurice Merleau-Ponty*

*"In spiritual practice there are only two things: you sit and you sweep the garden. And it doesn't matter how big the garden is."
-Zen saying-

The point of all of this, and it's finally sinking in is:

1. Life is PAIN - that is a fact. End of discussion

2. We can't live in the past or the future, but the PRESENT, this is the focus of being MINDFUL. Medidation helps one focus on the MOMENT, nothing esoteric, and not DP, not in the least.

3. I think this "oneness" that one can acheive, and no one can achieve full "WISE MIND" for a lengthy period of time, NO ONE, it is a life long work in progress ... the "oneness" is a sense that we are no more or no less than a piece of grass, than the person next to us.

4. We need to ACCEPT who we are. But that doesn't mean we can't make the MOST of it.*

Having studied this now for 4 months, been in group every week examining how this can affect interpersonal relationships, mood regulation -- this is a biggie, "reducing vulnerability to negative emotions" ... the things we CAN control. These things make life as stress free as possible, and we anxious sorts need that.

I note that my anxiety can go down, and my DP go down, if I think in this manner.

Also, I know, I already know certain patterns I have.

I seek out relationships, to rectify them, and they are NEVER going to be rectified, by getting close to men like my father, and getting close to women like my mother. Then not being MYSELF. This is too complicated. So I have to stop all that nonsense. My parents are dead. I have the ability to stop doing this... not saying it's easy.

OK:

If you skipped all that blather
* Buddhist Enlightenment, to the BEST of my understanding, and as I understand it in light of the research done by Marsha Linehan to develop DBT, IS NOT THE CHRONIC HORRIBLE STATE OF DP.

Enlightenment is simply.........
SIMPLIFY your life. Eliminate chaos. Find your REAL self... be honest with your SELF and with others. For me I have to learn the right ways to do this.*

I find the DBT link again.
I must say, this, very much like CBT, but instead of one on one, but in a group (of as many as 20 people where we DO NOT DISCUSS OUR SYMPTOMS, we have assignments re: COPING w/symptoms, feeling awful, bad behavior we have, etc. We learn skills to LIVE with our illness.

Buddhism is really for everyone, healthy or unhealthy. The Monk I believe, who achieves the greatest Enlightenment lives a simple life that is not realistic in our society, but we can apply its simplicity to controlling our PAIN.

LIFE IS PAIN, BUT WE CHOOSE TO SUFFER.

But DP is not necessarily a choice, I see it as pathology created in various ways, reinforced/conditioned, a "coping mechanism" that works too well, or is perhaps broken, or a perceptual shift we are caught in.

A choice might be to make a catastrophe out of something that isn't a catastrophe. Something in day to day life. Or to have unrealistic expectations of one's self, etc. TOOOOOO much to explain.

DBT was initially created for people with Borderline Personality... I'll find that link. You can also get Marsha Linehan's workbook... I got it printed out, with exercises, etc. But this helps with OCD, with anxiety, impulse control issues, low self-esteem.... it is used at my university with the STAFF. It helps w/interoffice relations, etc. The doctors take some courses. And those who work with it, must understand it.

I'm not a cult member I swear.
Affadavit on file 8) 
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

http://www.priory.com/dbt.htm

*"Dialectical Behaviour Therapy is based on a bio-social theory of borderline personality disorder. Linehan hypothesises that the disorder is a consequence of an emotionally vulnerable individual growing up within a particular set of environmental circumstances which she refers to as the 'Invalidating Environment'.

An 'emotionally vulnerable' person in this sense is someone whose autonomic nervous system reacts excessively to relatively low levels of stress and takes longer than normal to return to baseline once the stress is removed. It is proposed that this is the consequence of a biological diathesis.*

_Dreamer note: This applies specifically to me, and can apply to a number of people on this board. I am not saying this will work for everyone. I have found it very helpful. I know now, that as a young girl I had many borderline traits, and my mother was clearly a high-functioning borderline PSYCHIATRIST and I'm not lying_ :shock:

The term 'Invalidating Environment' refers essentially to a situation in which the personal experiences and responses of the growing child are disqualified or "invalidated" by the significant others in her life. The child's personal communications are not accepted as an accurate indication of her true feelings and it is implied that, if they were accurate, then such feelings would not be a valid response to circumstances. Furthermore, an Invalidating Environment is characterised by a tendency to place a high value on self-control and self-reliance. Possible difficulties in these areas are not acknowledged and it is implied that problem solving should be easy given proper motivation. Any failure on the part of the child to perform to the expected standard is therefore ascribed to lack of motivation or some other negative characteristic of her character. (The feminine pronoun will be used throughout this paper when referring to the patient since the majority of BPD patients are female and Linehan's work has focused on this subgroup). 

Linehan suggests that an emotionally vulnerable child can be expected to experience particular problems in such an environment. She will neither have the opportunity accurately to label and understand her feelings nor will she learn to trust her own responses to events. Neither is she helped to cope with situations that she may find difficult or stressful, since such problems are not acknowledged. It may be expected then that she will look to other people for indications of how she should be feeling and to solve her problems for her. However, it is in the nature of such an environment that the demands that she is allowed to make on others will tend to be severely restricted. The child's behaviour may then oscillate between opposite poles of emotional inhibition in an attempt to gain acceptance and extreme displays of emotion in order to have her feelings acknowledged.

Erratic response to this pattern of behaviour by those in the environment may then create a situation of intermittent reinforcement resulting in the behaviour pattern becoming persistent.

Linehan suggests that a particular consequence of this state of affairs will be a failure to understand and control emotions; a failure to learn the skills required for 'emotion modulation'. Given the emotional vulnerability of these individuals this is postulated to result in a state of 'emotional dysregulation' which combines in a transactional manner with the Invalidating Environment to produce the typical symptoms of Borderline Personality Disorder.

Patients with BPD frequently describe a history of childhood sexual abuse and this is regarded within the model as representing a particularly extreme form of invalidation.

Linehan emphasises that this theory is not yet supported by empirical evidence but the value of the technique does not depend on the theory being correct since the clinical effectiveness of DBT does have empirical support."

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*What is fascinating is that those with BPD have episodes of severe Depersonalization. Mine is CHRONIC 24/7 and has been for 30 years. I also had it much of my life as a child. Anxiety and depression as well. I do not and have not attempted suicide, threatened suicide (though I have planned it and spoken openly about it), and I do not cut. These are key Borderline traits. I used to be filled with rage in inappropriate situations. You'd never know it. BUt this is true of many Borderlines. Every person in my group looks "perfectly fine." Everyone is mentally ill and still is a normal, human being with family, children, day to day problems. And not everyone in my group is Borderline. That is not my diagnosis NOW, but I would say I have a significant number of BOrderline traits.

The new name for this may be "dyslimbia" or a "mood dysregualtion" problem, akin to bipolar. It may be that overdiagnosis of bipolar can be MIS diagnosis of Borderline.

It may or may not be on a spectrum. Interesting is my borderline traits lessened when I started Lamictal back in 1999 I think. SIGNIFICANTLY. That is a mood stabilizer. It also kicked in an extra bit of help dealing with the DP. Very subtle, but VERY important in coping.*


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Last thing. My husband has studied Buddhism for 40+ years. He was a Berkeley hippie. He also has some serious OCD. He was misdiagnosed until I dragged him to my psychiatrist when he was about 45? ALL those years misdiagnosed, but remember he is almost 62 and psychiatry has changed over the years.

In Buddhism we must let go of material things, they are meaningless. Fame is meaningless. But so is feeling worthless -- if one isn't famous, one shouldn't feel worthless.

My husband's email signature is a quotation by T.S. Elliot which reminds him to not think of himself as any better or any less than anyone else. Avoid judging others and judging one's SELF. THose of us here are very harsh judges of ourselves, often with unrealistic expectations. That is the "damaged Ego". My psychiatrist explained to me I have "narcissistic damage" ... I do not have a HEALTHY narcissism ... being a productive human, having the confidence to do daily work, and love....

*"Half of the harm in this world is done by people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm -- but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves....."
T.S. Elliot*

The Buddhist lets go of this. Feeling important is NOT being one with the world, being MINDFUL, being enlightened. It is the realization that we are merely here for a short while. A part of the earth. "Ashes to ashes, dust to dust." We must find peace in being a part of a greater whole that is existence, NATURE, life, then there is no fear of death. If there is nothing to lose, then we can be content, we don't fear it's loss. (Have that quotation wrong).

End of lecture. Got that out of my system. TIme for bed.
I'm saving this link, may put it up in the CBT section. And you don't have to study Buddhism to implement this in your life. Just make life simple.... REMOVE STRESS, etc., etc., etc.


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## Scattered (Mar 8, 2005)

I don't mean to hijack this thread and take it into various tangents that may not be relevant. However, My biggest concern is the idea of whether or not we should be treated as if we have a stable and unified self (which, DP or no DP always appeared to be an illusion to me) and then create a more positive self to interact with the world. Or if we should simply acknowledge our lack of self but just observe this and allow it to be while maintaining a high quality of living. Yes these are Buddhist ideas. I'm not Buddhist but have been reading a little bit about it. I think of these ideas as a practical philosophy that seems to explain the world in a way that makes sense to me, where alot of other ideas or philosophies have failed.

I don't mean to say or suggest that DP is in anyway an enlightened state of mind. Anything as debilitating and anxiety producing as DP can not be anything near the Buddhist sense of enlightenment. The point is that I don't think we can say to ourselves that these ideas of not having a self are purely the function of an illness. The way we experience it, thats the illness. The obsessions, scary thoughts, anxiety, and depression we have in relation to these ideas are the function of a mental illness. The actual concept of not having a stable, unified, self to me is not an illness but an astute observation. Before I was ever anxious, depressed, or DPed I looked at myself and I realized that there was no "ME". The "me" I always referred to was a simple accumulation of various thoughts, desires, and concepts that changed from moment to moment. People have an idea of who they are so that they can react and interact within the world. But this idea of who they are is an illusion. And if it is not an illusion then it is vastly different than what or who they actually are. This is all my opinion, of course, but it seems to me to be a truth that is not easily refuted.

My main question is then what do you tell someone who is DPed in light of these ideas. You can argue and say that these ideas are false, I'll be interested in what you have to say. But I'm mainly interested in those, such as dreamer, who are studying Buddhism and have to reconcile the idea of "no self" with the symptoms of DP. DO you simply ignore the idea that there is no self and then cherry pick whats useful out of the Buddhist philosophy? Or is there some way to reconcile this (without watering the original philosophy down) with the DP state?

EDIT: I noticed, reading back over your post, that you mentioned finding your "real self" as a step in enlightenment. In Buddhism this does not seem to be enlightenment at all. In fact, it seems as if this would be the workings of a grasping mind that has not been awakened and is not fully perceiving the world. According to Buddhism (As far as I know and I'm not THAT informed) it is only when we give up the idea of the self and realize our connection to the universe and everyone else, then we can be enlightened in this respect. To try to find "self" is like trying to grasp at another illusion and will only cause MORE suffering.


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## Captain_K (Aug 22, 2004)

And that's why I sail a ship.

Sincerely,
Captain K


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2005)

> And that's why I sail a ship.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Captain K


Now THAT'S Enlightenment!
That was just a breath of fresh air coming through me when I read that Captain K. Weeeeeeeeew........I needed that :lol:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

> EDIT: I noticed, reading back over your post, that you mentioned finding your "real self" as a step in enlightenment. In Buddhism this does not seem to be enlightenment at all. In fact, it seems as if this would be the workings of a grasping mind that has not been awakened and is not fully perceiving the world. According to Buddhism (As far as I know and I'm not THAT informed) it is only when we give up the idea of the self and realize our connection to the universe and everyone else, then we can be enlightened in this respect. To try to find "self" is like trying to grasp at another illusion and will only cause MORE suffering.


Dear DP,
I don't claim to be an expert in Buddhism at all -- I have learned most about it as part of DBT, and from reading, and from my husband's much more in depth understanding -- he has been a member of Zendos, gone on retreats, etc.. Also, I think you and I have a very different concept of mind, brain, SELF. (Nothing wrong with that!) 8) Interesting. March's National Geographic has an article on the brain. The cover is a Monk with electrodes all over his head (kind of funny).

*I reread your post and I disagree that everyone will experience DP at some point in their lifetime, I know young people (kids) and people in their 80's who have no clue what DP is (the horror we experience). My mother in law does not understand this at all and she is a bright woman. She is a non-practicing Jew who reads like a maniac. She is 85. My father who died at 85, a surgeon, had no clue what I was experiencing, etc. And I know other elderly people who are introspective and bright, but who do not suffer mental illness. And I see this as mental illness or neuropsychiatric.*

It is known to be a fleeting sensation in many -- so yes we all seem to have a capability to experience DP/DR, like deja-vu, etc., frequently in adolescence/college age. There is a huge physical change in the brain during those years. As big a change as in infancy I believe, or the equivalent. (It's explained well in lay terms in the magazine article). It is also known to be a coping mechanism in disasters, auto accidents, etc.

It explains why young people up to the age of 25 make poor decisions. Have far less impulse control. Really drive their parents nuts, LOL. I also believe this literal PHYSICAL change could be a clue to why mental illness starts in adolescense/college. More neurons, pathways are being created in these years. If you read the National Geographic, this summarizes this very well in layperson terms.

From my understanding, the Buddhist "loss of Self" is not the same as what I consider the neurological "disorder"/"malfunction" of DP. As mentioned by the Captain and Wendy. Buddhism is very simple. When distilled down to the basics, as I understand it (and there are many variations of it), it is a way of more philosphically dispensing with a connection to the IMPORTANCE of one's self as an "important individual" in the world's scheme.

The enlightenment achieved is that we are all, yes, part of a fleeting illusion, a life too brief. But there is comfort in knowing that we belong to Nature, to the Earth, to the Universe. We are "one" as each atom in our bodies came from everything and nothing.

I do NOT have the grasp of this that others have.

But IMHO, I say this with 100% certainty:

*These are my personal beliefs, I am not saying I'm correct, and we may never know the answers to this.*

1. *DP/DR is a perceptual distortion. It is NOT supposed to be chronic. It is meant to serve a purpose as part of a coping mechansim, but not remain as a constant, chronic, debilitating painful condition.It also does not occur in a vacuum sp? It can come with most if not all mental illnesses. It also comes with neurological damage and is equally debilitating. It is experienced under the influence of many drugs.*

2. I believe mind and brain are one. But this doesn't mean that I don't marvel at the miracle of our existence, or of the universe.

3. I am not a theist, but I find something spiritual in the amazing "miracle" of life. And Buddhism is a religion -- a PRACTICE of certain daily ritual/routine (things practiced "religiously", on a continuing basis), but it doesn't have a deity. Buddha is not a God. I don't even see him as a prophet such as Muhammad.

Religion and the Spiritual do not mean the same thing. Communism is a religion. If you study Huston Smith's work on religion you will understand this difference. I took psychology of religion at University and am fascinated with the mind, religion, society, forensics, etc.

At any rate, I feel that people see Buddhism as something tremendously complex, when it's goal is to simply life. The Buddhist tries to let go of the "false beliefs" of Life. That wealth and power and important. That fame is important. That we are better or worse than others. That we are separate from Nature.

*This is how I understand Buddhism. And also, I think people do "pick and choose" their life philosophies". I am not a Jew, but I believe in the Ten Commandments for instance. And the First Commandment "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me." -- I think the Buddhist would agree with this -- that is the God's of greed, gluttony, pride. Actually I think the Buddhist strives to rid him/herself of the 7 deadly sins.*

I see Buddhism as simplicity. I use it now, some practices, as part of my DBT education and therapy. I am not becoming a monk. I am not an ascetic, etc. I use what I can and apply it when I can, and it helps me feel better about myself.

*I don't have to win the Pultizer Prize to have worth. The Pulizter Prize is meaningless. I can have worth as a janitor, a cat, a tree, a piece of paper, the wind, a doctor, a mother, etc.*

As usual I could go on and on, but this is really for one on one discussion.

Hope this makes sense!
Peace and in the spirit of healthy debate.
I also don't believe anyone MUST believe what I believe anymore than I must believe what anyone else does. And I fail, daily. But I try again to live my life with respect for the earth, and others. I can never be perfect.

And if I'm full of hogwash.... so be it. It doesn't matter. 8) 
*I am not seeking Enlightenment. I am seeking Peace of Mind. I seek to understand myself, the world, and contribute in a positive way. And I fail at all of these things, but I can strive towards this. This helps reduce my stress, helps me live with my illness. This is how I use Buddhims in my life now.*


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

monkey dust you are right about that i think. thats just how i am too. my fantasies and my reality clash like no nuff.

dreamer you are right. going 'within' to be come enlightened is not the same thing as dp. even the pleasant forms of dp like the kind i have. the dreamlike wonderment of my own internal fantasy. that is NOT enlightenment. enlightenment is finding a peaceful balance and maintaining that balance. which is very difficult to do. you actually become MORE a part of the real world because you become part of the essence that drives it. you tap into the flow of life.. not flee from it. and fleeing is what these disorders are. escaping from reality, not BECOMING reality. facing it and controling it. enlightenment is essentially a form of control. the opposite of control is chaos.. and thats what this sh1t is. mental chaos.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Last bit! :? 
I try to practice Yoga as much as I can. It's hard w/DP and I explained this to my group as exercise overall intensifies my bad DP/DR. I can use variations of it. Focus less on my breathing, and listen more to my music.

But the point of Yoga is to free the mind of EVERYTHING. Simply breath and stretch. Turn off the endless yammering... and I yammer. It is known to reduce stress in mind and body. That's healthy. I can incorporate that into my life, to SUFFER less, even if my DP/DR never goes away.

What choice do I have but to try these things. Not aspire to become "enlightened" -- and I don't really know what that means -- and not to become DP! I think, healthy Monks have the wonderful reality I miss. A groundedness, a clarity, a peace of mind that you CAN'T have with DP. At least I don't have it, and I don't read about it on this board.

*I had more clarity and peace of mind as a young girl when I was feeling my best. The innocence of childhood. One time it was when I was 10 or so, riding in the desert on a dude ranch in Arizona, "The White Stallion Ranch" near TUcson I recall to this day as though it were yesterday.) Riding horses with a girlfriend I met there. We wanted to run away on the horses. The sky was a brilliant blue. The air was crisp. I felt crystal clear reality. It was one of the few times I think I lost my SELF and became one with Nature, with the horse, with the desert, with the sky. This has also happened in music, singing in a choir. Not being the "star" but being part of a great whole. Yes being part of an orchestra and LOSING MYSELF IN THE MUSIC.

This makes me cry. I miss it so much.*


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

sleepingbeauty said:


> monkey dust you are right about that i think. thats just how i am too. my fantasies and my reality clash like no nuff.
> 
> dreamer you are right. going 'within' to be come enlightened is not the same thing as dp. even the pleasant forms of dp like the kind i have. the dreamlike wonderment of my own internal fantasy. that is NOT enlightenment. enlightenment is finding a peaceful balance and maintaining that balance. which is very difficult to do. you actually become MORE a part of the real world because you become part of the essence that drives it. you tap into the flow of life.. not flee from it. and fleeing is what these disorders are. escaping from reality, not BECOMING reality. facing it and controling it. enlightenment is essentially a form of control. the opposite of control is chaos.. and thats what this sh1t is. mental chaos.


Yes, sleeping beauty, exactly what I mean! Spot on. Being MORE ALIVE, not this "dead disconnectedness from life" which is so sad for me.

SPOT ON!


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2005)

I'm not of the Buddhist persuasion, but I am pretty sure I comprehend the concept of "mindfulness" etc...enough to say this: DP, the state we suffer in mental symptoms, is almost the OPPOSITE of the "lack of self" that the Buddhists advocate.

Dp, the symptom, produces a CONSTANT and I do mean CONSTANT - second by second - hyperawareness of what self SHOULD be, or where self is MISSING, or what feels like a dead or vanishing self. The entire mental function is focused on self or lack thereof. It's like staring at mercury - the harder we try to "catch" a glimpse of it, the faster it darts away. The resulting feeling state is either terror (loss of Ego) or major depression (near delusions that the self is already dead).

That ain't "mindful" and it ain't "desireable loss of self."

The concept Buddhism talks about is much closer to what artists experience - or obsessive writers - getting lost in what you are doing to such an extent that YOU feel less important than the activity you are experiencing.

Putting Experience above Self-Perception is the aim. It's not that self is "lost" in the sense we are accustomed to feeling. Self is taking a back-seat, not out of apathy, but from the perpetually consuming LIFE experience of BEING a self in the world rather than "watching" the self.

Peace,
Janine


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2005)

Perhaps it is because I am "derealized" instead of "depersonalized" but even when I am making art I do not feel 'normal'. I do obsess a lot less about myself though, and a lot more about my art.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

JanineBaker said:


> I'm not of the Buddhist persuasion, but I am pretty sure I comprehend the concept of "mindfulness" etc...enough to say this: DP, the state we suffer in mental symptoms, is almost the OPPOSITE of the "lack of self" that the Buddhists advocate.
> 
> Dp, the symptom, produces a CONSTANT and I do mean CONSTANT - second by second - hyperawareness of what self SHOULD be, or where self is MISSING, or what feels like a dead or vanishing self. The entire mental function is focused on self or lack thereof. It's like staring at mercury - the harder we try to "catch" a glimpse of it, the faster it darts away. The resulting feeling state is either terror (loss of Ego) or major depression (near delusions that the self is already dead).
> 
> ...


Janine, Janine, Janine, yes, yes, yes! This is EXACTLY it.

There is an old book called "The Inner Game of Tennis" and one called "The Inner Game of Music". One, yes, becomes "one" with the experience, lives FULLY.

I liken it to even Tiger Woods. Tiger Woods is an incredibly focused golfer. He and the club and the swing and the tee and the ball and grass and the wind and the hole are ONE. He is ONE with his action. That is Mindfulness. Yes. And I think art is the perfect example, writing, playing an instrument, even crafts, dancing. BEING, and BEING CONNECTED TO EXISTENCE.

I'll shut up. THIS IS SPOT ON.

And Privateer, these experiences I've had, they are in my past as a young girl, or in college when I had some "clear spaces" and a helluva lot more energy. I have both DP/DR, they come as a package.

But I felt REAL much more in my youth, and those beautiful moments are clear. My first summer at music camp, singing in a choir with a full orchestra, I was ONE WITH THE MUSIC. I was not thinking inwardly at all.

SPOT ON 8)

EDIT: Like the expression "*I was lost* in the moment." Caught up in the passion. The SELF is NOT the focus, *the experience is, the experience of living*.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2005)

Im not really with it, but want to make an effort to say something.
You CAN watch the self, in a non-Dped way.
What we people do is identifying with our ego and say my Ego is me and get entangled with it.
Eg. this pattern I have that is mine and I identify with it, like make it: this is me. When you look closely at for example a particular pattern you have, its possible to detach from it and experience a sense of freedom and see the pattern just for what it is, nothing more or less, but the pattern IS NOT YOU.
This must be the experience of some sort of enlightenment as well, but when you do this, its like the Ego has vanished.
Its still there ofcourse but you dont identify with it.
Does this make any sense at all? Hard to describe.

My friend can get me out of my stressfull Ego state with only a few questions. Its very hard for the mind to let go off these self identifications, which we believe to be true about ourselves.
I often meet resistance when being questioned by him, but get THERE eventually, pretty quickly in fact.
Made me wonder what the hell I need therapy for when its this simple to feel good?


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2005)

Watching 'Billy Elliot' tonight made me think of this thread (movie about a young lad who wants to become a dancer).
This is taken from his audition scene, when one of the judges asks him what it feels like when he's dancing. He says:

"I dont know...... It feels good...... First its sort of stiff, but once it gets going, then I forget everything. And its like...Im disappearing. Its like Im disappearing.
I can feel a change in my whole body. Like this fire in my body.
Im just there, flying like a bird.
Like electricity.
Like electricity."

As you say Dreamer, being one with existence.
Love this movie and I always end up crying 8)


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Dear Wendy,
Man you've got me all sentimental about this, LOL. I also love that film. And again, this is what I'm talking about.



> "I dont know...... It feels good...... First its sort of stiff, but once it gets going, then I forget everything. And its like...Im disappearing. Its like Im disappearing.
> I can feel a change in my whole body. Like this fire in my body.
> Im just there, flying like a bird.
> Like electricity.
> Like electricity."


Sorry to milk this for all it's worth, there is the old expression, "Is she the dancer or the dance?" And I had a favorite song, sung by a young Liza Minnelli, about a cafe singer with the lyrics, "And from the tears she shows, nobody really knows, is she the singer or the song?"

That's it. That is what I believe (or believe personally) that "mindfulness" is and what DP IS NOT.

Now I'm cryin' again.
L,
D 8)


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2005)

well, shit, let's all just cry, lol...

"... O chestnut-tree, great-rooted blossomer,
Are you the leaf, the blossom or the bole?
O body swayed to music, O brightening glance,
How can we know the dancer from the dance?" 
-- from a poem called "Among School Children" by Yeats

My analyst quoted those last two lines to me about 2 yrs. into treatment. I knew the long poem well - had always related to it. It's probably the moment I fell in love with him.

Oh, the humanity. lol
Love,
J


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

OH my god that was also in this essay written by Alice Walker and it was like the BEST essay i read in that class


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

ok yeah i can see the "hot" factor there


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2005)

Come with meeeeee, lesbian seagull...

No?


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2005)

> Come with meeeeee, lesbian seagull...
> 
> No?


Ummmmmm, Im sorry mrmole, but are you talking to me? (since Im the only lesbian in this thread, apart ofcourse from the closeted ones :wink: ) or are you referring to Miss Alice Walker (who's a lesbian also).
Bit confused here. :lol: Just checking.

But if you wanna fly, I'll fly right with ya 8)


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2005)

LOL at Dreamer, you seemed to be on a 'crying spell' last night. It made me laugh when I read your other post to Shelly this morning. I know them spells, ALL mindfullnes...LOL and Janine joining the sentiments.
That was a good start of the day for me, remembering that we are human in the first place and that we dont need to be something other than that. 8)

Love
Wendy


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

I had no idea Alice Walker was a lesbian...


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2005)

What I know, person3/Melissa, is that she's been with women in her life, and wrote about this subject in some of her books. Thats all I know so I assume she is gay. But who knows?


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## Beth (Sep 27, 2004)

Hey,

Shattered, I know what you mean. My problem with just avoiding thoughts is that they are often things that I do really want to think about (and have to, because I'm studying philosophy) and also they seem true. If I'm frightened of the idea of having no self, then I can never be happy, because it's an idea that can always surface, being, as I think it pretty obviously is, true.

Is that what you meant? I'm now perfectly content with not having a self. I like it actually, once the idea stops being frightening itself it becomes rather a reason not to be frightened. Even the worst thoughts and feelings can't threaten something that isn't there, so 'I' can never be hurt.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Oops first posted this in wrong thread. I know this moved to the second page, but I wanted to comment on this:

This 2nd issue of Scientific American Mind (April/May issue) is REALLY worth getting. 
It is full of great stuff, moreso than the first issue.

*Re: this discussion,* there's a little bit on "Zen Gamma" in the mag 
on page 9. Very brief, but it contributes to my understanding (and 
again I may be wrong cause I ain't no monk ) that mindfulness is 
NOT DP/DR.

"Researchers at .. U.of Wisconsin ..... during meditation, Zen 
Buddhist monks show an extraordinary synchronization of brain waves 
known as gamma synchrony -- a pattern increasingly associated with 
robust brain function and sythesis of activity we call the mind."

************** 
Dreamer summary: 
[They compared monks w/college students on EEGs ... and note this 
"synchrony" was "sustained for remarkably long periods of time", 
but even monks can't sustain this 24/7. But they CAN sustain it for incredibly long periods of time. 
******************

"Such results connote more than spiritual harmony; they reflect the 
coordination of otherwise scattered groups of neurons. Gamma 
synchrony increases as a person concentrates or prepares to move. 
And lack of sychrony indicates discordant mental activity such as 
schizophrenia."

......... 
*.... the "gamma readings seemingly confirm that Zen 
meditation produces not relaxation but an intense though serene 
attention. Trained musicians also show superior gamma synchrony 
while listening to music -- another form of calm but intense 
focus."*

The key here are those last words -- "calm but intense focus" 
This is a very short little article. I'd like to read more about 
this stuff, just wanted to add this to the concept that Buddhist 
"enlightenment" or rather mindfulness is "living in the moment with 
as they say serene focus" --

... the musician or the music? Indeed. 
And to the best of my understanding NOT DP which interferes with 
focus on LIFE, experience, and we focus too much on the Self.

Also:
Music is SO important to all of us -- it's VERY important to me and 
I've always been musical. Sing and play a number of instruments. 
Music is VERY grounding for me. Brings out many emotions. It can 
calm me. Couldn't live without music.

*Music therapy is of great help to those with various brain 
disorders.* When my mother slowly declined from Alzheimer's, I'd 
say the last thing to go in her mind was music. She could sing, 
play things on the piano from memory, even when she forgot who 
everyone was, even herself.

A music therapist came to her Nursing home twice a week. All the 
patients could remember old songs from their "era" even when they 
could recall nothing else -- my mother was in her late 70s/80s as 
were many others there. Familiar music was calming, and 
frequently brought on smiles.

When my mother forgot the words and main melody to the song, she could STILL sing harmony using "Doh, doh, doh....." instead of the words.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Also, I believe strongly that only mentally healthy people who focus on this type of meditation can attain the full "mindfulness" that Buddhists speak of. Those of us with DP/DR can work on this, strive for this living in the moment and not worrying about past, future, etc. It is helpful in ignoring negative, intrusive thoughts, but I believe it is MORE difficult to attain this presense in the moment/focus/concentration with DP.


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## JAG (Aug 31, 2004)

Well said, Janine.


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