# Brain Surgery



## matthen (Jul 28, 2009)

I read somewhere that people with extremely bad DPD have gotten Brain Surgery.

has this lessened their dp?

Is this true? has anyone else read this or seen this? was i dreaming lol?


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## Claymore (Jun 13, 2009)

FIND OUT WHERE YOU READ THAT!!!!!!!!!! I WANT BRAIN SURGERY!!!!!!!! I ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT IT WOULD MAKE THIS GO AWAY. EVEN IF THEY JUST GO IN THERE AND MESS AROUND WHILE WE'RE AWAKE TO SEE IF WE SEE ANY CHANGE, I'D DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labatomy


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## matthen (Jul 28, 2009)

> Although controversial, some clinicians believe that in extreme cases, electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) or brain surgery (prefrontal leucotomy) might be considered.


www mdguidelines com / depersonalization-disorder

(i cant post links yet)


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## matthen (Jul 28, 2009)

prefrontal leucotomy - surgical interruption of nerve tracts to and from the frontal lobe of the brain; often results in marked cognitive and personality changes


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2009)

Woah. I can't seem to get to the link (when I put it together and cut and paste), but I have never heard of anyone even considering a lobotomy or any brain surgery for DP unless perhaps it was SECONDARY to a *brain tumor, serious epilepsy, serious head trauma -- and I mean like flying through the windshield of a car at 50mph, etc.*

Even then, brain surgery is limited well, to these obviously neurological problems where there is a clear physical lesion to remove or repair to the brain or stimulation of certain areas.

Lobotomies used to be performed on the seriously mentally ill decades ago. A lobotomy leaves you essentially vegetative. No real advantage to that.

Let me try that link again. My bet is it is DP related to the neurological physical disruptions of the brain. We have something wrong in the brain, but there is NO specific treatment for DP/DR -- even with medication.

You don't go poking in someone's skull on a whim! :shock:


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2009)

> *Although controversial, some clinicians believe that in extreme cases, electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) or brain surgery (prefrontal leucotomy) might be considered.* :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: However, most authorities believe that, due to the current lack of empirically supported treatments, the most feasible intervention is to assist the patient in attaining some level of ease and constancy, away from distressing interactions.


Controversial is an understatement on that one. I swear I have never run across that before. Also, I know individuals who have tried ECT (electro convulsive shock therapy) for this. One also has severe depression, however. But it didn't work at all for the guy with the depression, and interesting -- the individual with the DP "came back" after the shock sessions, but the clarity would fade away and he'd go back to being DP. Another series of treatments and he'd be "in reality", then it would fade away. It never lasted.

ECT is most effective as a last line of treatment for intractable depression, or used in the elderly who can't tolerate certain medications. And in those cases can really be helpful.

In the 1990s I asked my psychiatrist at UCLA about ECT. He wasn't happy with the idea. It gives you some memory loss -- short term -- however, my psychiatrist was very concerned about using that for DP. He felt it would make things worse. He did give me the name of an expert -- an M.D. whose specialty was literally electroshock. And you need it done in a hospital. I was :shock: about the whole thing and said Hell no, however there are days I say, yeah, I'll go for it.

But brain surgery... last resort! Poking around can CAUSE strange perceptual distortions in folks. There was a journal article on a man with chronic and unbearable tinnitus. His last resort was an experiment to stimulate a certain area of his brain with a probe to somehow stop the tinnitus. Instead he had an out of body type experience that was horrible for him. When they stopped probing the area, it went away. Probed it again the OBE came back. After all was said and done, the tinnitus was not helped by the surgery. Now that is a damned discouraging story.
:shock: :shock: :shock: again.


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## Absentis (Jul 10, 2007)

Neurosurgery for treating dissociation sounds like a really, really bad idea to me. I highly doubt any surgeons would attempt such a procedure. Well, at least in any first world country. You could probably pay a surgeon to do anything in the shadier medical establishments around the world.


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## Claymore (Jun 13, 2009)

SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :x SCREW LIVING WITH THIS FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!! I'D RATHER DIE, IF I'M NOT DEAD ALREADY AND JUST DON'T KNOW IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MRS. DAPHNE SIMEON BETTER GET ON THE FREAKIN BALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :x :!:


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## matthen (Jul 28, 2009)

I would walk around with a portable electric shock machine on my head. - someone needs to invent this.

So your saying when doctors perform Brain Surgery they are only guessing and "trying things out"?

reminds me of when they give us medication.

maybe in the future when they know a little more?


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## York (Feb 26, 2008)

About ECT... I think it might be the anaesthetic that makes you feel better. I had surgery and I felt great afterwards. 
I "only" had dr/anxiety/depression back then but anyway.. Of course your obsessive thoughts will eventually come back and f u c k you up again. It's the same now when I wake up in the morning, I'll sometimes feel ok for about ten minutes, then I start to think and it's back. Damn this brain.


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## Claymore (Jun 13, 2009)

kwitton said:


> I would walk around with a portable electric shock machine on my head. - someone needs to invent this.
> 
> So your saying when doctors perform Brain Surgery they are only guessing and "trying things out"?
> 
> reminds me of when they give us medication.


I would also GLADLY walk around with one of those if it worked.  And thats EXACTLY what my psychiatrist is doing with me, just "trying things out" :roll: . I think we should all be given more attention, they just don't GET how badly this crap effects us. If I had to lay in a hospital bed in New York while Dr. Simeon comes in every hour and "tried things" until she found something that worked I would do it.


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## Claymore (Jun 13, 2009)

york said:


> I think it might be the anaesthetic that makes you feel better. I had surgery and I felt great afterwards.


I could agree. I just had surgery about 2 weeks ago on my broken wrist and I told the doctor that I was only doing the surgery if I could stay awake through it because I have a phobia of being put to sleep. So he let me stay awake and they were giving me liquid Valium through an I.V. and I hadn't felt that good in months and months since I snorted those Oxymorphone. I was so comfortable and talkative and lively that I wanted to have the surgery again when it was over. I had no anxiety and I just felt at peace. But that peace was gone the same day when they took that I.V. out.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2009)

Wikipedia said:


> Electro*convulsive* therapy (ECT), also known as electroshock, is a well-established, albeit controversial, psychiatric treatment in which *seizures are electrically induced in anesthetized patients for therapeutic effect. Today, ECT is most often used as a treatment for severe major depression which has not responded to other treatment,[1] and is also used in the treatment of mania (often in bipolar disorder), catatonia and schizophrenia.*
> 
> It was first introduced in the 1930s[2] and gained widespread use as a form of treatment in the 1940s and 1950s; today, an estimated 1 million people worldwide receive ECT every year,[3] usually in a course of 6?12 treatments administered 2 or 3 times a week.
> 
> ...


Definitely not the anesthesia. I have had a number of surgeries in my life. Frequently anesthesia leaves me horribly DP/DR. I ask that I am put out at the last minute and not given any pre-op sedation. It makes sense however that individuals who have surgery and are given basically a huge dose of tranquilizers would lose a great deal of anxiety, and hence relieve DP/DR for a time if the DP is related to the anxiety.

I will say, I had to have a colonoscopy recently ... yeah, when you turn 50. Such a joy. :? I had a serious panic attack before the procedure as I was terrified (as it was "twilight" sleep) not full anesthesia that I would become horridly DP. I told the doctor this, the anesthesiologist, the nurse, etc. When they gave me the pre-op twilight stuff, my panic just fell away ... that was a relief as I couldn't breathe, felt like I was having a heart attack, etc. but, my DP/DR did NOT increase because of the panic.

AFTER the twilight sleep, which the doctor made LESS, I remembered most of what happened, which wasn't pleasant, but afterwards felt dissociated in a different way that was NOT comfortable. It took me 5 hours to feel more "normal" -- a friend stayed with me the whole time -- but I was back to my usual DP/DR.

ECT gives you a convulsion (as in epilepsy). I don't know that much about it, but it's like rebooting a computer. You have a full blown seizure. This is why they also paralyze you so you don't hurt yourself. YEARS of use, in depressed patients, prove it is he ECT that helps depression.

Also, getting tired:

1. There is now Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation which is a more benign way of treating depression. Google it, I'm too tired, and it has even been tried (at Mt. Sinai? briefly) for DP.

2. There is a tremendous amount of research into DP at the Institute of Psychology in London. Look in the links section ... make sure to see both pages when you look for the link. And it is Dr. Sierra who is coming out with the first FULL MEDICAL TEXTBOOK for doctors on DP, ONLY. I have full faith in the IoP. None in Mt. Sinai anymore.

3. To see if things work you have to do trials with controls and sick people. These are not easy to set up, fund, or get enough volunteers for. There IS research. But the brain is so complex. I don't know how many times I've said this. Also, per usual, the MAJOR mental illnesses are coming first in research mainly because individuals with schizoprhenia, bipolar, severe depression, etc. are a huge financial drain on the medical system and the economy. Many of us can work, and aren't repeatedly hospitalized. Yes, we are low on totem pole. But there is not a lot to do about it except getting involved in spreading the word, writing about it. Neurologists are very interested in all forms of perceptual distortion. DP/DR are in that category.

This thought of a lobotomy or leucotomy sounds insane to me. When I get a chance I have to look back at that page. It's full of garbage. :shock:

Also, you don't open up someone's brain to experiment. What happens is, say someone has a tumor or epilepsy that cannot be controlled and will kill the person, THEN one opens the skull and works on the brain. In general the person is kept AWAKE. The surgeon and assistants talk to the patient and ask questions to see if they are hitting areas of the brain such as speech, etc. SO THEY DON'T HARM THE PATIENT.

In the process, they learn MORE about the brain, as in the example of the guy with tinnitus. THey didn't cure his tinnitus, BUT they found areas in the brain that cause perceptual distortions. These "serendipitous discoveries" are common in all of medicine. Many medications used today say for a mood disorder may have initially been used for something else. Bad example: say someone has a heart condition and is given Inderal for that. The patient says, hey doctor, that medicine, it's helping my heart, but I also feel less anxious. I didn't know I WAS that anxious. Hence the use of that drug for anxiety. It is no longer strictly a heart medication.

Serendipitous medical breakthrough.

Sorry for being crabby.  
I'm so tired and frustrated too.
Nite.
D


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2009)

Forgot, they used to? maybe still do use INSULIN shock therapy. That is mess up the person's metabolism and cause a *diabetic seizure -- and I don't know that anesthesia is involved.* It is the SEIZURE again that reboots the system. I think insulin is out of favor now, honestly don't know. I'm out of that loop.

As I said, one can ask for ECT, and I suppose if your doctor approves it and you can pay for it, they MIGHT do it. But to the best of my knowledge, from what my doctor explained to me, and from the few stories I've heard ... it makes you confused and disoriented anyway and the end result for someone with DP, IMHO, would be MORE negative than positive and hence wouldn't be considered for study.

It's main use, and most successful use is in major chronic clinical depression.


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## rob35235 (Feb 21, 2009)

Brain surgery to do what? Brain surgery is for fixing structural problems like tumors or cysts, or occasionally electrical problems such as epilepsy. Since no one actually knows what causes DP and DR, there is nothing to focus on. The problem is probably biochemical in nature, and in the future will most likely be fixed with drugs which do not yet exist. Look up NMDA receptors.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2009)

rob35235 said:


> Brain surgery to do what? Brain surgery is for fixing structural problems like tumors or cysts, or occasionally electrical problems such as epilepsy. Since no one actually knows what causes DP and DR, there is nothing to focus on. The problem is probably biochemical in nature, and in the future will most likely be fixed with drugs which do not yet exist. Look up NMDA receptors.


In response I have to say, there COULD be structural problems, such as a problem with the hippocampus. There have been fMRI studies done where certain areas of the brain in DP patients respond different from controls. DP/DR can be CREATED by stimulating certain areas of the brain ... so can out of body experiences, and other strange things, people hear music, feel things, smell things, so there is a mapping of areas of the brain when they find this stuff.

Knowing an area after stimulation can CAUSE a perceptual problem, they could potentially open the brain and use electrodes to stimulate another area to relieve the perceptual distortion. We don't know. But opening up the brain as even an OPTION for DP specifically seems nuts to me, as there is nothing specific to work on unless you seriously damage the person's brain so they don't know they're ill.

Just out of this world, IMHO.

That article makes no sense.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2009)

> nsulin shock therapy or Insulin coma therapy was a form of psychiatric treatment in which patients were repeatedly injected with large doses of insulin in order to produce daily comas over several weeks.[1]
> 
> It was introduced in 1933 by Polish psychiatrist Manfred Sakel (1900-57) and used extensively in the 1940s and 1950s, mainly for schizophrenia, before falling out of favour and being replaced by neuroleptic drugs.[2]
> 
> ...


Thank God that's out of favor. Didn't have it quite correct. My GOD what people used to do. They will laugh at psychiatric treatment in 100 years and say, why the HELL were we doing that? :shock:

Barbaric some of it. And yet, not many options at different times in the history of medicine. Thank God for Pasteur!


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## voidvoid (Sep 5, 2008)

"most authorities believe that, due to the current lack of empirically supported treatments, the most feasible intervention is to assist the patient in attaining some level of ease and constancy, away from distressing interactions."

This really struck a cord with me. I think this is very relevant. atleast in my case, where family issues are arguably the source of my depression/anxiety/dpd/dr and what makes it worse, and the fact that I lack any constancy in my life.


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## Absentis (Jul 10, 2007)

Claymore said:


> ...they were giving me liquid Valium through an I.V. and I hadn't felt that good in months and months...


Someone who isn't me *cough cough* once took a vial of liquid valium from a medical clinic. And this person (who totally wasn't me) injected it intramuscularly. (The vial was formulated for IM injection, and it would have been dangerous to IV it.) It was an amazing experience. Or so he told me.


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## Surfingisfun001 (Sep 25, 2007)

> (The vial was formulated for IM injection, and it would have been dangerous to IV it.)


Why would IV'ing it be too dangerous?


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## rob35235 (Feb 21, 2009)

Dreamer* said:


> rob35235 said:
> 
> 
> > Brain surgery to do what? Brain surgery is for fixing structural problems like tumors or cysts, or occasionally electrical problems such as epilepsy. Since no one actually knows what causes DP and DR, there is nothing to focus on. The problem is probably biochemical in nature, and in the future will most likely be fixed with drugs which do not yet exist. Look up NMDA receptors.
> ...


MRI scans of the brain can detect an amazing number of organic diseases. They are very accurate in picking up structural problems. In certain dementia patients, there will be atrophy easily seen by MRI. Encephalopathy, Multiple sclerosis plaques, iron deposits, inflammation, aneurysms, you name it. But what they don't show is the way the brain processes glucose. And this, basically, is the problem we have... too much uptake over here, too little over there. Kind of like, your car engine is structurally normal, but, it's clogged up and doesn't run properly.


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## matthen (Jul 28, 2009)

so we have to wait until scientists invent magic.


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## Absentis (Jul 10, 2007)

surfingisfun001 said:


> > (The vial was formulated for IM injection, and it would have been dangerous to IV it.)
> 
> 
> Why would IV'ing it be too dangerous?


This particular formulation contained a mechanism that would keep it in the muscle for longer than usual. You know how some girls get contraceptives like depo provera, which stays in one's muscle for several days, if not weeks? Well, there was something similar in the vial, although it extended the dose for hours instead of days. The stuff that wasn't diazepam is harmless when absorbed by the muscles, but harmful if injected directly into the bloodstream.


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## simplynothing (Aug 23, 2009)

Absentis said:


> Claymore said:
> 
> 
> > ...they were giving me liquid Valium through an I.V. and I hadn't felt that good in months and months...
> ...


i also had valium administered by ways of i.v. before a surgery and the anesthesiologist told me i should feel its effects within 8-10 seconds, but i really didn't feel anything that noticeable,but then again i wasn't really to anxious to begin with. maybe i have a high tolerance?


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## Claymore (Jun 13, 2009)

Absentis said:


> It was an amazing experience. Or so he told me.


Well who ever that person was *cough cough* you, wasn't kidding. When they put that stuff in my I.V., not only did I feel real again, but I felt INCREDIBLE. I wanted to break my other wrist just to get surgery again so I could feel like that again.............litterally.


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## Lost-in-Space (Jan 26, 2008)

In November 15, 1947 there was an article in The Lancet (A well known British medical journal) by the title of "Prefrontal Leucotomy (The British term for lobotomy) and the Depersonalization Syndrome" by Dr. HJ Shorvon. HJ Shorvon was the expert on DP at the time. He wrote "the" classic article on DP. It is available on the web (The Depersonalization Syndrome).

In the article on leucotomy, he talks about 4 cases of intractable DP. They tried every available treatment at the time and had no benefit, same as today. After a recovery period from the surgery, the patients said they were either cured or much better. I think there would be some people on this site that would go for the surgery, if it was still available.

In an excellant book called "The Last Resort" the author goes over the history of lobotomy. There were some well documented cases of "miraculous" recoveries. Do to the excesses in the 1940's and 50's psychosurgery has gotten a bad name. It is not the case in all countries. There is a lot of psychosurgery going on in other countries.

If you want a copy of the Lancet article, send me your e-mail address and I'll send you a pdf file.


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## Claymore (Jun 13, 2009)

Lost-in-Space said:


> In November 15, 1947 there was an article in The Lancet (A well known British medical journal) by the title of "Prefrontal Leucotomy (The British term for lobotomy) and the Depersonalization Syndrome" by Dr. HJ Shorvon. HJ Shorvon was the expert on DP at the time. He wrote "the" classic article on DP. It is available on the web (The Depersonalization Syndrome).
> 
> In the article on leucotomy, he talks about 4 cases of intractable DP. They tried every available treatment at the time and had no benefit, same as today. After a recovery period from the surgery, the patients said they were either cured or much better. I think there would be some people on this site that would go for the surgery, if it was still available.
> 
> ...


This is interesting. I would probably go for it if it was available. Not much to lose, everything to gain >BACK<. :|


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