# GABA - back down the rabbit hole



## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

So I've been speaking a lot about emotional trauma recently and think it is very relevant. I do strongly believe our personality types (influenced by our upbringing) or emotional trauma (even it that was 'just' a panic attack) caused this primarily. But that DP was an anxiety/fear based thing that was eventually bound to happen. I think people without anxiety know how to 'self-soothe' and therefore don't ramp up the cycle for it to grow out of hand. I have started to consider whether this overly active response to anxiety with myself would naturally increase adrenaline/glutamate and therefore just be a matter of time before I developed DP.

I've tried Lamotrigine to no success but that mainly blocks glutamate and only minorly increases GABA. I've never had any strong GABA drugs as they are a big no no in the UK, although phenibut had some impact but caused severe nausea and hangover effects. I do believe attitude towards yourself is still majorly important, but my genes and gut are making it a mountain to big to climb with attitude alone. When I did have the panic attack on weed there was excruciating abdomen pain (I ate the weed) so this could be related to gut/bacteria. I do believe mind and body are one thing, if we are a fearful person the gut will provide the correct bacteria for that and downregulate GABA. People see it as a chicken and egg thing but I don't believe its that simple. So the next step I'm trying is gut based and diet based with a few supplements:

Magnesium Sulphate (epsom salts)

Lots of water

P5P - bioavailable B6 needed to make GABA

Yakhult, tempeh, kimchi - fermented foods increase friendly GABA making bacteria

Taurine - supposedly increases GABA (not sure how)

LOTS of coconut oil - ketones/ketogenesis improve GABA, perhaps through enzymes that produce GABA. Not a fully ketogenic diet but increased fats. Currently 3 teaspoons extra virgin coconut oil in tea twice a day

Green tea- L-theanine passes BBB and turns directly into GABA

Lifeplan Lactobacillus Acidophilus and Rhamnosus bioactive bacteria

HIIT training - did the first few sprints last night, massively unfit! But slept the best I have for a few weeks and feel better for it today. High intensity training increases GABA quickly. Takes 10mins everyday, and I will defo keep to this more than long 30/40min jogs as its quick and more fun. When you run until your chest is bursting you can't be thinking about DP

Yoga/meditation - when I say yoga I do a few stretched but its the same effect. There was a study that showed yoga massively increases GABA after one session. Also meditation increases this, and helps me with my attitude towards myself

If anyone else has any further additions that are easily achievable would love to hear your input!


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## Hedgehog fuzz (Dec 12, 2016)

Benzos should be available but only very short term.

What dose of lamotrigine did you get upto? Did you notice any changes at all? Was that from the DP Unit? Did it help with concentration and memory issues (if you had them - not sure that you did).

Pregabalin should be easily prescribed by most psychiatrists. Gabapentin as well, but my doctor has given me Pregabalin. They think that my dp is driven by anxiety. You could look into that?

sorry lots of questions.


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

I think increasing GABA can't hurt, at least on a trail bases, some good stuff on that list, the 3 that I know which works to boost GABA are:

L-theanine, L- glutamine, Picamilon, i've recently started all three. 
Taurine lost it's effect within about 4 days and i was taking a mega dose, it defiantly felt like Gaba at the start.

Another thing i've read a bit about but not enough to state advice is serotonin has a relationship with it, something to look into.

Gaba is very difficult to make, expect to not see results over night. The Gaba drugs that do work over the night don't seem like good options. i am guess you are talking about are diazepam which from my experience with such drugs they seem to have a very small window of Gaba boosting, like say clonazepam, probably the most affective in that bunch, 10mg will give me 2/3 hours of GABA feeling, relaxed etc.. But i certainly don't wake up the next day with more GABA, it feels like if anything, less. This is not science it's just a feeling but i know people who take it long term have a problem processing Gaba again. Kinda the problem with all these things, if you cheat your system by boosting something the easy way, well it doesn't end up well, basically you get nothing for free. I'm not saying don't use medication by the way, just that sometimes it requires more than a burst of what you need I guess...


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Lamotrigine dose was up to the 300's mgs and had no effect whatsoever. Yeh from the DP unit. I have concentration memory issues severely, especially in social situations. Perhaps getting modafinil soon, having BP and blood tests this week at my GP so fingers crossed they approve the recommendation. I doubt thy will though. I've had gabapentin but no use, I sometimes worry I don't give these meds enough time.. but they should have SOME effect in the month or two I try them. Think I was on lamotrigine for 2-3 months.

Hmmm picamilon any good? Phenibut was for me but the nausea was extreme for the dosage I needed and the hangover would cause me to have to up the dose the next day... if I could eat because the nausea/hangover was so bad. I'm trying to avoid any meds, and I see picamilon as technically a med. I just worry about natural downregulation and building a tolerance, especially with GABA based meds/neutropics. You basically said this to me at the end of your post 

Looking forward to my sprints tonight. Made me feel better within half an hour last night and only did 3 sprints. Also slept far better and felt more relaxed in the morning. Going to really go for it tonight and will report back!


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## Billy D.P. (Apr 12, 2016)

It's never a bad idea to start living a healthy lifestyle and you have lots of great stuff in there. The best thing you can do is eat more fruits and veggies. Also, if you want to transform your gut bacteria you'll need to cut back on meat. Another tea to try is hibiscus. It might actually be more beneficial than green tea, believe it or not.

Only advice I'd give, since I've basically been doing what you're getting into for the last nine months, is to ease into it. Take it slow. Don't overdo it. It's gonna take a lot of time to transform your body and mind but if you keep at it you'll see results. You don't have to work out everyday. You don't have to eat really healthy everyday, just as long as you do it most of the time.


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

Are you still with DP unit? I was thinking of signing up but i just wondered after the '[Redacted] method' do they think outside the box like for instance after i tried that i'd want to try Adderall/Ritalin and then next on my list is Naltrexone and/Or Suboxone...?

Personally i think 3/4 months is fair trial, that's what i am going for from reports i've read, but usually after a month or two you should have some type of something...

Yeah we agree on it although I am trying to find out if cheating my system in any one thing helps as i'm not responding to much at the moment.

Picamilon is a drug I suppose, it's a supplement in most counties but UK has banned it. (Doesn't mean you can't import it legally). ATM i am just on 100mg, i've tried 200mg. Gonna do some research see what the safe amount is and see if a mega dose does anything but... don't base it on me.

I don't seem to respond to downers at the minute yet "uppers" i am sensitive to. For instance i just got a temporary 7 day script of 15mg Diazepam in the UK... the average person would get 5mg... and it's not doing anything for me, this is due to bipolar.

Have fun at your sprints


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## mrt (Dec 10, 2011)

CK1 said:


> Are you still with DP unit? I was thinking of signing up but i just wondered after the 'London method' ...


What is the London Method?


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

Kings College [Redacted] MRT. The first thing they use is Lamotrigine (taper up to 400mg) + Clonazepam + tricyclic *antidepressant *(often clomipramine) - documents floating around saying they had 40% responders to this in trails. I don't have anything that says that but I do have 2 documents, one with them explaining DP, the other saying it's what they use.


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Saw a shrink there and they suggested mirtazapine(??) which is an atypical antidepressant I believe. May ask for it seeing how this week goes as the exercise has been helping and just ordered a butt tonne of supplements to try for GABA upping. SSRI's tend to make me worse but mirtazapine sounds promising. May give it a go in the next month. I would love a tricyclic but unlikely to get prescribed. Still think my GP is going to be prescribing things and modafinil is the next request from London but am fully expecting my GP to decline the request. I want to give it a go but half suspect it will make my DP worse. But it does increase bloodflow to thr VMPFC which is affected in DP and my concentration is awful so who knows


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

Mirtazapine is a tetracyclic, it stopped my blank mind when i tried it after 3 months, until that period i did not enjoy it, added more spaced out feeling, overall good though, takes a good few months in my experience to get past the side effects, i believe Mirtazapine is only half a treatment to be honest, something for the anxiety with it i think would be beneficial.

Modafinil? it's on my list, just many down. Pretty sure your GP won't decline anything, they are now the experts in your care and over your GP. Just how say my psychiatrist can write me 15mg of Diazepam, my GP sure did not like it, wrote me a letter but could not say no. Least you are a few meds ahead at all times!


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Ahh ok didn't realise it was tricyclic just thought it was atypical antidepressant. May give it a go soon. Yeh I've heard it stated in research that an SSRI + modafinil is the 'silver pearl' of DP... or something like that. We will see, I've had modafinil recommended from the clinic before about 4/5 years back and it was declined. So we will see. The sprints went well though. Felt sick for about 20 minutes but feeling better now. Also ordered a load of GABA tea, B-GOS and inulin for the healthy gut approach. Fingers crossed


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

Broken said:


> Ahh ok didn't realise it was tricyclic


it's not, tetracyclic is different than tricyclic. Google would be better at explaining that.

Oh yeah? sounds like a good combo. One that in fact is going on my list, thanks.

Really? i just don't see how they can turn down such standard drugs from people above them, if my doctor turned it down i'd get a new one


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Oh crikey never heard of tetracycle.. it sounds like it should be better at least haha will look into it thanks!

The sprints defo are helping release abdominal tension. I believe that's where the problem is.. and that's going to be a mixture of lower good bacteria>less GABA>change in genetic expression>more glutamate therefore DP. The gut theory for depression makes perfect sense to me as 90% of serotonin is made in the gut, but never considered DP. But my theory is continued stress leads to more cortisol/adrenaline/glutamate as we are fired and wired and ready to go. Eventually this will downregulate genes and bacteria for GABA as its not being asked to do as much as we are so fearful. I think it is to the point where my body is in a 'GABA crisis' and I never even enter deep sleep. I never wake up rested. Not for over 12 years. As I said phenibut helped probably more quickly and better than any meds/supplements I tried but GABA meds just build tolerance and the short term surge will down regulate GABA receptors (in theory). Thats why I think GABA meds dont bring long term relief to DP patients.

The gut is more than bacteria.. its emotions and part of the sense of self too. So we get stressed, down regulate GABA get more emotional distress/less resistant as a result. Then the PFC suppressed the insula as the body/gut/emotions are always sending the signal of pain so it gets shut off. I ate marijuana fell unconscious and woke up with SEVERE abdo pain, like being stabbed in the gut. That signal HAD to be shut off or I would have passed out from the pain... Then I had the panic attack and there was this weird moment where I seemed to remember something but blocked it out.. again my theory is that core memories about our selves are held in the abdo/heart region and could also be part of the reason the insula shuts down... but my theories go on and on

You in the uk? Problem is most medications are 'off-label' for DP.. in fact nothing is 'on label'. But I do have a new GP so will see if she is better with this type of thing. I did find it very weird that my previous GP had the last say. But at the end of the day its their responsibility now and if anything did happen it would be their license on the line so can understand it.


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## mrt (Dec 10, 2011)

CK1 said:


> .. do have 2 documents, one with them explaining DP, the other saying it's what they use.


Thanks CK1, would it be possible to get a copy of that?


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## Billy D.P. (Apr 12, 2016)

Forgot to mention passionflower. If your goal is to create more GABA then passionflower is your best bet. I'd go with a tincture since you can measure how much you want and gradually increase.


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Hmm interesting.. got some passion flower tea somewhere. Although I know its got a form of apigenin in, the active compound in chamomile. It acts at GABA receptors but there's slightly different forms. Just finished my chamomile tea so might get back to that til the GABA tea arrives, thanks for the advice


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

Hmmm, Gut theory is interesting. I'm just going more drastic as i've tried a lot of things and without meds i've not felt anything in my head.... i think it needs a pretty big wack to get it to be in line. I don't doubt your method at all. Your knowledge on this seems interesting, I only know artificial ways with GABA. Are you taking anything for the gut? i've tried Q10 for 2 years, that's about it.

Interesting that you mention "cortisol/adrenaline/glutamate" my cortisol is crazy figures and my adrenaline, apparently i have "adrenaline fatigue" which might give you some ideas. Also my testosterone is 17.7 should be 1.6 so there is something in that but i don't think the shots i will get will fix my DP because my head feels numb and only boosting it with dopamine seems to help.

I also don't doubt that my GABA is low as my anxiety has been killing it for ages. I'll defiantly follow this with interest, i just know for my lamotrigine is next as mirtazapine was doing a lot, so for me it has to be something in that department + as i said 15mg Diazepam or huge amounts of Clonazepam (GABA) don't help my DP at all while Mirtazapine did. My symptoms match dopamine the most, especially no inner monologue which is dopamine signals on a loop = inner monologue, my GP actually liked my theory on dopamine as Zoloft did nothing and Mirtazapine got my inner monologue back while i was on it. I've tried loads of supplements in mega doses of dopamine and had no results at all.

Modafinil + Mirtazapine is a combo I will try after Lamotrigine even if i have to buy it. It's such a shame that doctors are so well i dunno what the right word is, i'll just use ****'s because they force us to take meds into our own hands almost. Yeah I am in the UK. I've got the problem that I am Bipolar so my meds on one hand I can have any stabiliser but my choice of what in bipolar world would be uppers like SSRI's are limited and in my case i'm not even allowed with this doctor to have Mirtazapine. I've managed to get myself diagnosed with ADHD so if lamotrigine doesn't work or helps slightly I may add Adderall/Ritalin. (again my P Doc is raging about this! lol)

You should be able to get Mirtazapine so easily, i got it before I knew what DP was, I just said how i felt and that I hated Zoloft and I was given it. People get it for mild sleeping problems.

Sorry to highjack this tread, i realise it was about GABA. I have a thread on this, but please, it's really worrying me, do you or anyone reading this have what i call numb head? like no dopamine rush/ when you smoke a cigarette or get drunk, no feeling in the front of your head? like just a big blank numb head? it's making me feel like it's a unique problem of mine...


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

mrt said:


> Thanks [Redacted], would it be possible to get a copy of that?


PM your email and i will get them straight to you


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Nothing on the gut yet, waiting for B-GOS, inulin, GABA tea, tempeh + kimchi, Acidophilus + rhamnosus bacteria, taurine, p5p.... so lots to come. That should have a big effect I believe and dont see it having any negative effects. I think I have had minor chronic constipation for a long time.

Currently having lots of green tea every day, 6 teaspoon extra virgin coconut oil a day (kills off bad bacteria (supposedly)) and also have b vit complex as well as a yakhult and fish oil/epa every day. Oh and Epsom salts and zinc..

Is your testosterone really high?? I have heard of it being really low with dp but havent had mine measured. Did you have a professional cortisol test? I had an NHS cortisol 9am blood test once but it came back normal.. but that isnt meant to be a reliable test.

I am interested in bi-polar as I do seem to have mood swings. Very energetic to suicidally low (usually caused by socialising). But I am confident I could get a ADHD diagnosis (my brother had this), PTSD, GAD, depression, anxiety, social anxiety, insomnia, or even some forms of epilepsy. The entire mental health community is a joke in my opinion. Its so subjective you can barely call it a science. 90% of people go and subjectively describe their symptoms to someone who subjectively takes in what they want. The opportunity for bias is unreal. I genuinely think if I went to 10 different doctors I would get 5 diagnoses at least.

I have numb head and heart yes. I keep smoking tobacco every now and then even though it makes me feel sick fairly often. The other day actually with a meditation type technique that tension started to release. It's like everything in my forehead is contracted into the 'third eye' position on my forehead in a superfocused kind of way. And from there its gone numb. Same with the heart, its like my chest has contracted into the solar plexus region and gone numb because of the pain that caused.


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

Yeah that's interesting, i'll be sure to follow, can't hurt producing more GABA naturally. "chronic constipation" (man we are open on these boards haha) but that is easy to fix. Magnesium supplements will sort instantly for one.

Yeah? healthy gut is defiantly good, as we know it's where we make 80% of things.

Low? I have heard the term Adrenaline Fatigue which depending how what stage can make levels of Cortisol low or high, my Testosterone being so high and it's relationship to Cortisol I am not that sure on.

What i gather from it is Cortisol, Prolactin and Testosterone can't all be crazy figures without a common factor causing this. I am no doctor but Adrenaline Fatigue or Hyperthyroidism is my bets. My doctors don't know yet so my guess is as good as it gets till i see them in two months. Also my testosterone is the highest my doctor has ever seen...

Yep i've had about 5 Cortisol tests as they could not believe it then went in for a synacthen test, which in my opinion is one of the only good tests, they do bloods then inject you with a hormone and test you again.

Yeah? bipolar is very hard to diagnose and until it really flares up, nearly impossible to put that label on you. (maybe google the NHS mood chart, see if you ever hit 1-2 and 7-9) I went to 7 - 2 hour assessments with 7 different people, i told them every time that i was bipolar, wasn't until my last my now p doc said it was easy to see i was bipolar.. so easy that i knew 12 months ago and my whole life i had an idea but it never got this bad.

Keep fighting is all i will say, ADHD is something that if you read the check list, you just know, it's not one of the harder ones I think. I knew I had it at like 13, i learnt differently, no attention, was struggling in school until i learnt to manage it. I paid 500 quid for a top assessment and passed with flying colours (if only that was a good thing).

GAD, depression, anxiety, social anxiety, insomnia are all in Bipolar believe it or not, maybe get a test? It's good to figure this stuff out. I don't doubt you experience all them, but there is probably just a few ROOT cause. Cracking one will crack another.

For instance i've anxiety = DP. Depression, anxiety and insomnia = Bipolar and ADHD = list of more learning style and attention.3 things but if you were to list them it could seem like a million is what i am getting at?

I went on a rant about PTSD the other day. I'll keep it brief here, but (JUST IN MY opinion) read the PTSD signs and really consider how strong the signs are...

PTSD is given out too much and i never think that about many things, in fact i'd be more inclined to say labels aren't given out enough, like how so many doubt ADHD is a thing... but as said on another forum, i've met a real solider with PTSD and i'm told i have it, yet just because I can hit a few check boxes does not mean I have the real thing. It's a bit like saying "i am a guitarist because i own a guitar". Everyone would have mild PTSD as the list is easy too tick, especially if you have DP/Anxiety, but do you have the hardcore symptoms? If you do, by all means, get the proper medical therapy for it, don't suffer. I am just saying anything with anxiety issues gets that label rather easily, DP especially, when people recover from DP, PTSD is a lifelong almost tape that rewinds and follows the person. I guess there is sub types maybe of PTSD yet to be defined or maybe another name needed for a cross over symptoms.

In my case the first criteria is "Re-experiencing the trauma through intrusive distressing recollections of the event, flashbacks, and nightmares." well I don't have that.. I don't even have anxiety about any specific event, so I fail to see my PTSD. I experience some symptoms but again another of the main three you need "feeling jumpy, and being easily irritated and angered"... well anger is not in my nature, pre or post DP, i'm not jumpy either... you see where i am going? we all match emotional numbness, so it's easy to say PTSD when I believe DP is a whole disorder in itself, I have no anxiety to the situation that caused it, doesn't upset me or make me anxious, in PTSD that would be a very intense subject. In the person I know with real PTSD if i said "remember the time you got kidnapped" well he would be shaking and it would feel very real.

Sorry done it again, gone on a ramble.

That's true, i find most don't diagnose they just try medications they like. I went to 1 doctor in [Redacted] who every time gave me Zoloft so i had to change doctor.

Yeah? is there a youtube link to this meditation although, it doesn't sound like it was good?

Do you get what i mean by the no like nicotine rush then?


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Yeh the coconut oil and magnesium have helped with the pooping. I never feel.. empty though. haha. That's ironic, I always feel empty except for my butt.

I've seen a couple of people here with low T but never high. Just seems odd, it's meant to have many brain benefits and everybody wants theirs higher. Oddly you say you have no aggression but with high T you may expect the opposite. Are you quite built then? Or lift weights?.. perhaps zinc is raising it?? God knows, it just seems strange but then DP is as everybody's symptoms and clinical tests are different.

Yeh I dont have classic PTSD. It would be described as complex PTSD, where flashbacks aren't necessarily present as the trauma/memories are suppressed. There was an odd moment during the panic attack where it felt like I remembered something awful and blocked it out.. I remember thinking 'that didn't happen, see you're going crazy'.. And then blaming my emotions on another memory as if to say 'that's why you feel this way'. In regards to getting another diagnosis though, what I'm saying is I have such little confidence in the mental health community I don't really see them being any help whatsoever. Just a waste of time.

..having said that today I got prescribed modafinil, which has made me see just how much of an arsehole my last GP was. Literally no questions asked, quick ECG and blood pressure check, in and out and prescribed in 15 minutes. Literally cannot believe it after what my last GP put me through.. will let people know how that goes.

I sometimes get the nicotine rush but more often than not feel nauseas.. so yeh mainly absent. It's as if my body craves it but I know cigarettes make me feel like shit most of the time.. its odd.

I have no link for a meditation. There was a 14th century zen monk called Bassui who I find really cool to read. Some quotes are 'look directly. what is this?' and 'who is it that hears?'.. Which sound like awful things to think about with DP. But I find them helpful. By look directly he means in direct experience we take so much for granted believing we know whats going on. I have since yesterday just been asking myself 'what is sound?'.. again sounds weird but it keeps me present. I am almost searching for the direct experience of sound but never find it. Basically mindfulness with a twist of curiosity. I just let the mind wander and ask directly 'what is this?'. A thought comes along, and rather than get carried away in the narrative just see if I can find thought. What is emotion when they arise. What is sound? What is this sensation? What is sight? Because with DP there is very much this attitude that says 'I know what all this is and I have to escape'.. But I don't know what DP is. Nobody does. And I believe these thoughts and don't know what thoughts are. And follow these emotions but don't know what they are. Also, being kind to yourself. There is a real innocence to thought and emotion to try and protect you.


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

Haha, i just would keep upping magnesium till it goes the other way and find the balance.

Is it? well i can stay up 9 days without sleeping and we can't figure out if that's hormones or bipolar, doctor says it's even very strange for bipolar. Maybe it has my brain in overdrive. I think it's way to high to be useful, causing me to sweat, no energy etc. yin and yang is defiantly something very true in the body, anything more than a little high and it's chaos. Too much dopamine for instance something you'd think you'd want loads of cause psychotic symptoms.

I'm not chilled, defiantly no where near my usual relaxed state, i've put gone from a Medium t shirt to XL in just 4 months, not that built, my arms and chest have bulked for no reason but many my belly went from normal to well, depressing. Yeah it does surprise me you say that most have Low T, but that makes sense I suppose as they are using it. Doctor did say it's very strange to have a problem with too much, most people have too little if it's not normal.

Yeah i mean, believe what you want. Just don't put yourself in the PTSD box if you don't have the 24/7 condition it is, you may experienced some symptoms, but unlike PTSD, some suppressed memories will heal. Tell your doctor for a proper assessment, your GP can't and shouldn't label you with anything as a diagnoses in mental health.

Oh my, i am getting confused as i've written a few forums, but was i talking to you about Modafinil? It's high up on my list, trying to get my hands on it. Yeah do let us know. Very interested.

Do you get the rush in the front of your head? mines numb.. like a brick. sorry i've mentioned this 10x. lol

Interesting meditation, i'll come back to it when i feel in the right place. Right now i don't have that type of patients, i just want to jump through this imaginary barrier and awaken. Real frustrated


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Hmm I dunno, it just seems way high. Is your doctor not looking into the high testosterone? How long has it been that high?

Modafinil is not in stock so getting it delivered saturday.

Yeh not really the same rush from smoking or drinking as I used to. Just horrible nausea and hangovers.

Yeh the meditation is interesting. Been focusing on the breath today trying to calm it... I keep switching about can never focus on just one technique which doesnt help


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

I've known it was that high T wise for 4 plus months, got another 2 months wait to see a specialist for the second time, they are inno rush ill tell you.

I've just got hold of Modafinil!!! i'm wondering though, since i am taking Lamotrigine on 27th, will there be enough time to see if it does anything before that or should i be patient and try it after? I dunno how quick acting it is, like i know SSRI's 3 months it takes to reach a good dose.

least you have some rush, i've none. brain replaced with a stone. RIP.

Yeah? i'll have to give it a shot sometime, with me though it's pointless it feels, my heads blank, i am in an all day meditation.


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Yeh not wanting to get too political but the tories are fucking the NHS where mental health is already at the back of the queue. 
I would suggest taking it now as it's meant to be a fast acting drug. People use it to help with exam revision. With DP it might not be that fast but could be. I'm not too hopeful, I feel my body and mind need to calm down rather than speed up but it's had good results with an ssri. Ssri's have made my symptoms worse before so may be willing to try one alongside modafinil. So long as you don't have high BP/heart rate. Did your gp prescribe that? You got it fast! I've been trying for years


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## Hedgehog fuzz (Dec 12, 2016)

I get scared thinking about the political cuts...i think another thread may have to be created!


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

Yeah I agree anyone who doesn't see that or NHS as the best service we have is stupid. I HATE politics, it's the same here with everyone talking about united Ireland (North joining South)... i could not give a monkeys, I just don't want to be left without the NHS. We've all probably used it 15+ times pre DP at least. Also now i have 'bipolar' medical insurance would be impossible.

[Redacted] was a joke when i lived there for last 2 years, i went to 4 different doctors about general things they were all terrible, it's only now in the last 3 months i am starting to get good care in Northern Ireland, same NHS, just my doctor actually cares.

(still clueless about DP and might go to Kings College if i get no where but still my last doctor said he would request it and never did, least mine now would do it without issue, he also tested all my hormones in the fullest test (8 bottles of blood) which my london GP wouldn't)

Oh really it is fast? Hmmm might take it for 5 days sneaky out of curiosity! I've heard that the US military use it for long flights and missions, it's a dopamine drug right? like the type of drug ADHD etc?

Hmmm It's not mine, lets leave it at that. I'll only get a few to try, if it works, that will be a very complex situation.. it's annoying it has to be like this, self medicating to figure it out, but otherwise this process would be a lot of back and forth... modafinil is given out in America it seems like candy, yet here, nope, same with Ritalin, it's a lot harder to get it here, I have ADHD and have been put on an 8month waiting list for an hour consultation... i've already been diagnosed I dunno why we are wasting each others time


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Yeh I get very annoyed about it, it's clear that GDP for the nhs has been cut under the tories. But people are stupid and are told to blame immigrants so happily point the finger there instead.

Well it's good that you finally have a doctor that cares. I feel the same and it's taken a long time.

It's hold take 4mins to an hour. Took mine half an hour ago... still waiting for the magic lol it has been described as 'the hidden pearl that could really help depersonalization disorder'. Basically it's a dopamine reuptake inhibitor and increases activity if the ACC and insula, both affected by DPD. 
Well the DPD clinic recommended it to me and if your gp is understandable they may allow it just by looking at the scientific papers. Apparently it's not addictive and I'm hoping it will just help rewire some key areas. Also going to try mirtazapine next week, I think my poor sleep is also to blame partly. I never feel I enter deep sleep, or slow wave sleep and it really helps with that apparently. With you saying it helps and another person yday am going to give it a go


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

So an hour after taking modafinil I feel more alert. Strange kind of sensation in the center of my forehead. Also feel a bit more relaxed in my stomach. Subtle but noticeable at the minute. But that's only 100mg after 1 hour. So I'm hopeful it could help. Will report back more soon


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

2nd Day on modafinil going strangely. Didnt sleep great but felt ok. DP/DR perhaps minorly decreased.. now seem to be crashing from the afternoon dose with a heavy feeling of depression. Like I'm about to cry but cant.. very odd. Think I will try the dose tomorrow and see how it goes with a decent nights sleep. Also some physical tremors across the body which i've had before, probably trauma in the body.

I'm not going to take this as 'I feel bad therefore this is the wrong drug'.. I think the blocking out of emotions is a big part of this and who knows maybe the slight raise in dopamine and reactivated brain regions is helping me feel my emotions again. I strongly believe the road to recovery could involve feeling emotionally worse.. or I'm at least open minded to that. guna give it a while, maybe get mirtazapine on tuesday to help with the sleep. Have been very anti meds for a long time but am willing to give it another go. Dont think I enter deep sleep so mirtazapine will help with that. Just feels like my brain is never rested so am hoping a modafinil and mirtazapine combo will help.. will report back with updates.

Modafinil having any effect with you CK1?


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

.. also interesting to note some people's DP started with anti biotic use. Be interested to know if that's because it knocks out gaba bacteria/affects gaba receptors.. there are some who claim they do interfere with gaba.

Anyway today feeling.. nausea. Pretty sure from the modafinil. More focused slightly, again probs modafinil.
HOWEVER. DP seems to be improving. Feel more imbodied in between bought of severe negative emotion.. almost as if physical releases and tremors in the gut bring these negative emotions out. Pretty sure this is more to do with the pro and prebiotics I've had the last 3-4 days. Feeling optimistic anyway. Would make sense the gut becomes inflamed so the prefrontal cortex shuts out that pain. Thus the vagus nerve doesn't fully activate and allow us back into the full parasympathetic mode.
Overall feeling more irritable and emotional, but negatively.. not a bad thing IMO. Also better focused and more physically imbodied/relaxed despite less sleep. Only thing is I'm unsure if it's modafinil or the supplements. Will report back in a few days unless someone replies


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Quote from another forum.. will have to check source later
Fluoroquinolone antibiotics - cipro, levaquin, avelox, floxin and their generic equivalents - are particularly hard on the brain. They mess up GABA receptors and cause anxiety, insomnia, depersonalization, and worse. In a survey of 94 people who experienced adverse reactions to Levaquin/levofloxacin, a fluoroquinolone antibiotic, 72% reported experiencing anxiety, 62% reported depression, 48% reported insomnia, 37% reported panic attacks, 33% reported brain fog and/or cognitive impairment, 29% reported depersonalization and/or derealization, 24% reported thoughts of suicide and 22% reported psychosis. DO NOT TAKE FLUOROQUINOLONES IF YOU VALUE YOUR MENTAL HEALTH!


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

Reply to post 1:

They recommended modafinil?

Mirtazapine i think is a good combo drug.

Reply 2 and 3:

Still waiting on family member to get approved.

Totally agree, when I was on Mirtazapine after 3 months I stared to get sad emotions but enjoyed it, was not until they came out did some positive, I believe it's a block or lack of whatever chemical you wanna blame, but just keep feeling. It's positive.

Post 4: Hmmm interesting in anti biotics.

Overall. i think if you are noticing any differences or improvements so early that can only be great. Thing it sounds like it might be a bumpy ride at the start, keeping going, how long have you got a script for?

EDIT:

If the Modafinil was mentioned by Kings College can you send me the document?


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## MichaelTheAnhedonic (Aug 31, 2016)

CK1 said:


> Reply 2 and 3:
> 
> Still waiting on family member to get approved.
> 
> Totally agree, when I was on Mirtazapine after 3 months I stared to get sad emotions but enjoyed it, was not until they came out did some positive, I believe it's a block or lack of whatever chemical you wanna blame, but just keep feeling. It's positive.


Interesting. 3 years ago I was on mirtazapine (45mg/day) and exactly after 3 months I got flashbacks from the past, remembering when my mom was caring about me and all... It was making me sad but in a positive way.


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

I rate it, for 3 months it made me nothing but have side effects like... sweating and dizzy and the likes. 3 months + I started remembering things, emotions were getting better (was singing in the shower!) and started to get an inner monologue.

Modafinil+Mirazapine sounds perfect - shame Bipolar = No Mirtazapine, but if other things things fail i'll get it somehow.

How about a combo like this Michael as the Modafinil might do the dopamine that Ritalin was doing and Mirazapaine good boost (168 % daily to the frontal cortex of dopamine if i am remember that of the top of my head)


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Yeh modafinil is the 'hidden pearl' for treating dp apparently. I've only read good things, has even really helped people's depression. Kings did and have recommended before but my last gp refused it. That was at least 5 years ago so if they are recommendin it over that time it must have showed good results. Dr Evan torch made the 'hidden pearl' quote in this book (haven't read it), cant find anything from kings:
Simeon D, Abugel J (2006). Feeling Unreal: Depersonalization Disorder and the Loss of the Self. p. 256. ISBN 978-0-19-517022-1.
In all honesty the modafinil had a definite effect and I feel relaxed but it stops me sleeping so IF I were to continue I would need mirtazapine. However I do not believe these good results are from modafinil. The main improvements the last few days have been relaxation of body and mind. The physical tremors I've been getting are all day and been getting more relaxed continually. I have a month prescription for modafinil, but for now will stop taking for 4 days to see if I continue to improve.
My dp started when I ate weed (uncooked) then went to be sick and passed out before I could reach the toilet. I woke up with severe dp AND SEVERE ABDOMINAL CRAMPS. Literally as if I was being stabbed. The reviews of people I've read who make this change to a pro gaba bacteria diet are unreal. People on antidepressants for 20 years coming off them once they eat proper pre/pro biotics. Personally I think because I didn't vomit out the harmful weed it quickly flushed out my bowels disrupting that balance. I have also had fungal nail (sign of candida) for 15 years which is actually showing signs of improving. Anyway, I'm very hopeful and will report back soon hopefully with more good results.. or I will be worse and assume it must have been the modafinil that helped


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

Yeah? the hidden pearl? awesome... just when you think you know the big ones.

Mirtazapine keeps me awake, that's how you know I am bipolar, knocks everyone else out lol.

Oh so you are gonna be on nothing? good luck, i'll be sure to keep in touch!

also can i send you a link to have a wee look at on this forum, need to know what to say for next week, used your quote...

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/66490-giving-my-p-doc-a-list-of-4-meds-advice-pleaseee/


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

The hidden pearl indeed. It targets some regions implicated with dp.. alongside an SSRI/SNRI/any antidepressant it could induce neurogenesis in those regions.. I was very hopeful of this prior to this diet which has had remarkably quick results. So so much more relaxed. Physically at least, the most relaxed I have been for... 13years I would say. I feel uneasy/anxious a lot, but I believe this tension was the freeze response keeping these emotions back just so I could function... well not function. But not sit curled up in the foetal position, which had DP not occurred would have been my life. These emotions keep coming in waves everyday, along with tremors and feeling more physically relaxed. I don't think my body had the biochemical tools available for the mindfulness approach, which sometimes helped. But when these emotions come there is this urge to turn away, distract myself or DO something. If I just feel these emotions but do nothing, drop any intentions there is more release. And I think with this probiotic approach my body now has the GABA to help me relax and not excess glutamate and cortisol (these bacteria also lower cortisol levels!). It's slow progress but a lot faster than I thought it would be to honest. Just ordered a butt tonne of kimchi, will be back with more progress soon


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

lower cortisol eh? something i need, mines shockingly high...

could you when you get a chance get links up / make a thread about the GUT? but for people who just wanna know where and to follow and i'll do it, spent stupid amounts on supplements that do nothing, quitting them all. You never know.

I do know though without much doubt the reason i've no inner monologue is dopamine, do they touch that at all?


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Hmm I havent seen a lot about dopamine. But if cortisol is high then adrenaline is probably either high or you have adrenal fatigue. If that has happened then dopamine is made of very similar chemicals so it makes sense dopamine would become depleted... But then that's me trying to squeeze your symptoms into a model that I don't know for certain is a 'cure' for even me yet.

I will say that I am physically the most relaxed I have been in years. And today I noticed a shift in my DR - more 3Dness and more colour. It's subtle but definitely there. And multiple good probiotics that produce GABA are what I put this down to. I don't however see them doing you or anybody any harm.. I cant know that but I imagine its rare. Rhamnosus for example doesn't show positive effects in people with weakened immune systems and can even be negative. But this bacteria specifically has had anti depression/anxiety effects.

As long as it's started slow as I think I got some bad bacteria die off at the start of my diet which caused very bad gut symptoms. I will post a full in depth version soon I think with articles etc. For the time being I want to leave it for another week to be certain it is this that's helping.. even though I'm 80% sure at the minute. 3-4weeks ago I was banging on about emotional trauma though, and although I think what I said was relevant it's not the whole story. So once I've made a significant step I think I will post a recovery story (trying not to get too ahead of myself though). For now here is a post from another topic that list's everything I have taken: http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/66530-supplements/#entry452162


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

https://www.nature.com/pr/journal/v77/n6/pdf/pr201551a.pdf

Here's a loose connection and small sample size, but possible link to rhamnosus decreasing chances of children developing adhd/aspergers, adhd being linked to dopamine. But the sample size is too small to be relevant. I mainly read other peoples accounts on these things online, theres tonnes of people saying it cured long term depression/anxiety


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

nice very interesting, I will keep this in my back pocket, got to many other things going on now to give it a fair trail, thanks for the link to supplements.

Yeah adrenaline fatigue is something they think I have at the moment, i have an Endocrinologist working on it. I just don't think fixing that will change my DP, as my blank mind is not caused by adrenaline in my opinion.

Sure lets give this a few weeks or even a month and see how you get on with this!


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## Hedgehog fuzz (Dec 12, 2016)

Broken, I think you should consider Pregabalin if you are finding GABAergic effects to be really helpful. It doesn't sound like medications have been helpful to you yet, but this might be the one.


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Got that, didn't overly help. Perhaps slightly with sleep. But I'm just against gaba meds/supplements.. even agonists. Because it's just going to lead to dependence and decreased receptors. So for now I'm going to continue with this, still improving so will see how it goes.. Give it a few weeks then will go on mirtazapine + modafinil as I have a far more understanding GP now. GABA drugs are just dangerous in my opinion.. and this method actually increases GABA and GABA receptors naturally and sustainably


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

mirtazapine + modafinil excites me... good luck on all fronts, keep us posted


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## Hedgehog fuzz (Dec 12, 2016)

Where did you learn about these particular supplements, and where does it say that it increases GABA levels naturally as well as receptors? I am very interested to know, and also, if there are natural ways to do this for GABA then there could be for lots of other chemicals as well.

I am currently taking pregabalin but my DP/DR was so fuckign bad when it came on that I had to take some medication. I do not want to be on it forever even though I have been told by my doctor that it less addictive and destructive basically than benzos (i did quiz him over it because I am scared), but I have to be on something right now until I get into the system proper. It makes me think whether I should of stayed on my sertraline anyway, even a low dose, to see if that further bought my anxiety and obsessional symptoms down. I am also worried about hippocampal atrophy in the fucked up joke state of stress that I have been under for the year and a half. Pregabalin actually stimulated n'genesis in stress models so maybe I am covered, although I like to think that sertraline would do that even further. I have started taking turmeric supplements today for just that.

Yes please keep us updated.


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

There are a LOT of scientific studies linking mental health and gut bacteria, sorry this link briefly describes the upregulation of gaba receptors. Cant find the specific link right now

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4228144/

Regardless, it won't do any harm unless you have a compromised immune system. For me it's difficult to say I had a herxheimer reaction from a load of die-off from 'bad bacteria' OR whether it was side effects from modafinil. I have started modafinil again today so will see how that goes. Rhamnosus specifically increases gaba and receptors. Found a link:

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/belly-bacteria-boss-brain

Yeh hippocampal atrophy concerns me as well. Unfortunately all the brain scan studies on DP don't mention the hippocampus as it's related to anxiety/depression. WHY?! I think it's highly relevant and not studied at all. I also think inflammation is related due to bacteria, this then effects brain chemistry. Also, oxidative stress is increased which then I believe effects breathing rate (mine is very low). Genetics/ bacteria/ brain chemistry/ inflammation/ nutrition/ breathing/ emotion/ psychology/ exercise. It's all very interrelated, with mild/moderate conditions you can target one and recover. I think DP needs multiple

Turmeric is good, started taking that again the other day as well.

Another forum here, but a lot of info on gut bacteria and gaba:

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=119657.0

I think it has helped me a lot, but sleep isn't great. So today started modafinil again, been 2hours and feeling more embodied.. and a little more focused. Sticking to it this time as I have zopiclone to sleep. I've heard some nightmare stories about this drug but it's just short term until I can get mirtazapine to help with sleep. My GP refused for some reason, but should get confirmation from the DP clinic and get it soon


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

... oh wanted to mention. I have had a fungal nail infection since I was 15.. so 15 years (a bit gross I know.. I'll get back to talking about my bowel habits in a minute). Anyway, I have tried all types of topical treatments to help this and NOTHING helped. I have recently started to grow healthy nail from the nail bed. This is basically because of diet in my opinion. Interestingly people sometimes complain about sinus infections. But just clutching at straws. None the less positive to FINALLY being getting rid of that chronic infection, it cant be a bad thing


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

Broken said:


> Interestingly people sometimes complain about sinus infections.


Yeah this is worth a poll. I've got a sinus infection think i mentioned and had it for years. Don't think it causes DP think we are clutching at straws again, but a lot of us do.. strange..

So you attend Kings College DP? or did you just go once?

My main question about DP centre is after the typical Lamotrigine + SSRI + Clonazepam they try other meds I understand, is that right? I see you got mirtazapine + modafinil from them? nearly certain they told me this, but I just want to confirm before i wait it out to see them. I also wonder if they ever get onto Naltrexone and/Or Suboxone... although I am ahead of myself, i haven't tried many meds, I just hate the idea of things being off limits if they have worked.


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Yeh I think it's defo worth a poll. Bit then would have to extrapolate it out to the 'normal population' to see how common nail/sinus/chronic infections are. Chicken and egg as well, but mine came before dp. Again not that it caused it but definitely not helping my body to heal in the very least. 
Been to kings for an assessment with Elaine Hunter (psychotherapist) for 2 hours and then 1 hour with a shrink for med review. I am due to go back mid June for an executive functioning assessment. Depends how in depth that is but I struggle to follow conversations in loud environments. 
I don't know really, they tend to offer lamotrigine + ssri (have never been offered clonazepam). Then modafinil + ssri. Unless they do clinical trials I have never heard of them giving or suggesting naloxone.. but I definitely want to try that as well. Seems tricky but there may be ways to get it legally in the UK. Yeh me too, it's ridiculous. It's safe to give to someone full of opiates but I can't give it a go to get me out of this nightmare.


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

That's what I was thinking, how normal is it, I'll defiantly ask my doctor how common he think it is out of interest. Suppose until we know that, it's a bit irrelevant..

But the shrink was a DP specialist right? not just a general guy.. he worked for DP centre?

Oh can you get meds at your assessment or is that another meeting? seems like a lot of meetings, but worth it.

It's so tricky, I hate that, it's a safe drug, yet because i don't take shoot heroin i'm not allowed it, what? so i need to start heroin or what's the deal here, JOKING of course but it's just stupid.

See I was kinda hoping Kings College would be ultra open and be like, oh yeah lets try you on this or that... for instance Ritalin has cured DP, i just wonder how open they are to experimenting really. I guess I've just got to go and find out.

Also I have a thread again i'd really appreciate your advice again please.. reply there to not get this thread anymore in the wrong direction lol

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/67002-anyone-with-bipolar-gone-to-kings-college/#entry454570


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Nah shrink seemed to know OF dp but definitely not specialised. Saw Dr Sierra before and he clearly knew his shit, he cared and gave some advice. A bit poor but the dp department has gone down the pan a bit due to lack of funding so they are mainly therapy based now it seems. 
I don't know what to expect at all from the next assessment. Just guna turn up and see what happens. To be honest I'm just expecting shitty questionnaires so anything else is a bonus.
Nah don't think they are that open with meds at the moment as they are outsourcing their shrink from another department so basically sticking to what's already been done. 
Ok will have a look


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Oh p.s. where have you seen Ritalin curing dp? Modafinil is a similar drug, and having taken two doses today it seems that the relaxation and embodiment feelings I was developing were from that rather than the diet. But will be keeping both up continuously for weeks/months now to see what happens


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

So who tells them to do what with treatment? I thought the whole point was the centre had a Shrink who was doing the prescribing, oh my.

Yeah? hmmm. Questionnaires, great.

Well that shrink is gonna meet me with a lot of evidence on many different medications.

Nice, i haven't felt relaxed in years.

I can't find any Ritalin ones right this second, i know i've read a few, this story talks about it helping and Adderal curing. (similar type but completely different compounds)

-dpdr-cured-what-workedwhat-didnt/]http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/499[Redacted]-dpdr-cured-what-workedwhat-didnt/


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

I duno, the shrink seems to follow the literature as he wasn't specialised. He recommended meds to my gp, don't think they can prescribe. 
Yeh I mean I hope for an eeg and things that are actually quantitative but am not feeling hopeful of that. I duno, might Google an executive function test and see what to expect. I think it will be basic memory and attention but nothing special. 
Yeh snap on the relaxed thing. I was feeling really relaxed when I started the diet/modafinil at the same time. But now less so once I stopped modafinil so am on it again. 
I did find a case study of a lady with chronic dp for 8 years entering near complete remission with ritalin. Other med hadn't helped her so fingers crossed. 
Yeh I wanted adderAl at one point, rarely prescried in UK I think. Was guna ask for the med that is used for stopping smoking as that acts on dopamine. It does seem the hopeful medications are generally gaba and dopamine. Have again been getting lots of tremors/relaxing today fron the modafinil. And now have zopiclone to help me sleep at night so will stick to it


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Yeh skimming through thay it seems benzo's help at first then stop (what afraid of). Tricyclics help or atypical antidepressants, and also drugs that act on dopamine. Basically the approach i'm trying at the moment. I think gaba is best done through diet as drugs just increase dependence and lower receptors. I don't want short term relief then dependence, I don't see the point. Apparently modafinil deactivates the amygdala slightly, wouldn't surprise me if it's involved in dp.. but again hard to find studies on amygdala/hippocampus in dp. Just bizarre. They have to be involved in my opinion


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

I hope they have a lot of literature in that centre. I'm gonna sign up anyway.

I'm getting an EEG soon I got my P Doc to request one.

modafinil makes you feel relaxed? weird. I thought it would be too stimulating, interesting! (I've only started reading about it recently)

Yeah, dopamine drugs make me hate cigarettes, why? it sucks. I like them but getting off them would be good actually.

Yeah in the UK we don't like the good stuff. Adderal is in my top 3 to try. I am having real sleep issues like going days without it, i was given zopiclone but I am immune to them. 2 7.5's do nothing, not even feel them. Diazepam does not work, i just dunno anymore. Hormones are more powerful than sleeping tablets i've found out.

Yeah i get what you are saying in the second post. Mirtazapine had my biggest success, while as SSRI did nothing, so i figure dopamine for sure


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Yeh sign up if you can, had to go private as I had 3 nhs referrals declined. Ooh Ok, let us know how the eeg goes
Yeh weirdly that's what dopamine does for adhd from what I heard, but I always assumed it would be mentally. My mind is running a bit quick at the moment but also a tiny bit more focused when I need to be. Just get extremely stressed when around d people cos I get paranoid and zone out and think people are talking about me. 
Adderal seems to be mentioned a lot around recoverys and positive improvements for dp/Dr. It would make sense as the limbic system is heavily involved. Plus my piss poor attention is the main issue with me so I can't work. 
Snap, zopiclone sent me off ok but woke up several times. Really hoping I get mirtazapine next week. Heard great things about if for sleep, and nightmare stories with zopiclone.. or it not working like with you. Makes sense though as its gaba, 7.5mg must have worn off quite quick hence it woke up a lot. 
One minor detail with modafinil. It gives me the shits. Big time. Not the runs I just poo a lot. It's like I drunk a quadruple espresso. That symptom definitely needs to die down


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

P.s. (again) I did notice positive effects before from the SNRI effector. That was after 6 weeks Ish I think. Can't remember if I was high enough on the dose that it started to effect dopamine. I would perhaps assume it did as I had trouble climaxing (again too much info soz) BUT my dp/Dr had lessened slightly. However went to the Dr and he said he had never heard of any issues despite me reading countless reviews of people developing erectile disfunction and horrible sexual symptoms. So from there lost confidence in the incompetent gp and stopped the medication. That was years ago, but effector ALSO acts on dopamine at high doses. Just something to add. Nice to put all my thoughts on this in one place, it reminds me there is hope


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

3 NHS declined? what! HOW? under what grounds? that's appalling. My GP will be very helpful and as for the board, i'll take this as high as it needs to, not that i am saying you didn't. Shocked. Disappointed.

They are in no rush for EEG so yeah I will but god knows when that will happen. Be lucky if it's in the next 6 months. If it isn't urgent you just get lower on the list day by day.. you know the system.

I have ADHD, that's why I have trial coming up of them meds, hope they don't go for Ritalin. Adderall is what i want, but you know these doctors, when i have a meeting, the more I suggest what i'd like, the more chance i'll get the opposite. It's like a game of bluff. I should go in saying I want Ritalin lol

Awh dear, i've never had paranoia really, I wonder what the best thing to calm it, but i guess right now in the UK with two meds, they aren't gonna look into another one, at least for now, Mirtazapine might help, you never know.

Same on the attention, I went to the ADHD assessment with DP and they didn't know and at that stage I didn't have a name for it, so they just thought, MAN this guy has serious ADHD, which is gonna work out to my benefit for DP.

I've taken over 70 of them in the last 8 months, sounds like a lot and it is, i got letters about it and various GP's got in trouble, but my sleep is so extreme at the moment that they really don't know what to do. Seroquel doesn't make me tired, Mirtazapine did not make me tired, Diazepam 20mg does not make me tired. I'm a very rare case though, Mirtazapine was great until I couldn't sleep. I've given my Dad one once when he wasn't tired and he said he was out in 10 minutes and was the best sleep he had in a long time!

My case is more extreme, without going into details, though i can just don't want to bore you. I stayed up 10 days a few months ago, I confirmed this by going to A&E every 2/3 days and they and my doctor at the time wouldn't give me anything.

Since, been to p doc, doctor and endo... turns out Adrenaline Fatigue and my cortisol is running so wild they have not seen anything like it. In A and E they said the record they seen was 3/4 days.. never 10. I need this nightmare to end.

I've tured this post into a conversation sorry. After a few months on Mirtazapine + Modafinil a new thread might be good lol

Yeah? I hate that about GP's... "no that couldn't be doing that"... well a few words into google and i've found 50+ people saying the same thing? doctors hate you googling as you are finding out stuff they had hidden for a long time. Just my thoughts.

Least you reminded yourself. I do the same with Mirtazapine, was the best meds i've been on


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

A lot of money and theres cuts. Mental health is stigmatised against. It's a research unit with lack of proven effectiveness. Depersonalization itself is barely recognised in the nhs... I will think of more reasons later.
Christ that must really suck. Have you had a sleep study test or sleep apnea test etc? I sleep but I swear I never enter deep sleep. Wake up several times a night to the slightest sound... which is a sign I never enter slow wave sleep. Will hope the mirtazapine works.


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

I'm gonna get an MLA (MP) involved if my funding does not get approved but i'll stop focusing on that, it's different in every borough I was told on the phone, who knows what mine will say.

They wanted sleep study and sleep apnea test but then realised I don't get to sleep in the first place so it was pointless, like i'm not saying 10 days bad sleep, i mean, I did not touch my bed once. My hormones have shown to some degree why I can do this but to this extreme... well that's unknown as my vital's such as thyroid are working all good, yet Cortisol and Testosterone are way out, still working on it, got up to another 2 month wait or something to see my ENDO, my doctor is so angry he has sent a letter and then he rang them himself. Still getting no where fast. Anyway. . .

Mirtazapine hopefully is the ticket. I know from experience that i got a deeper sleep on 15mg than 30 or 45...


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Yeh getting your mp involved seems wise actually, I never thought of that. Just gave up.. I have a tory mp though.. who is being investigated for electoral fraud.. I'm sure he could recommend some lovely private services though.
I'm keeping to the diet and modafinil and getting mirtazapine next week hopefully. When I first came here I was talking about the solar plexus focus which I have returned to. There is a huge amount of fear within that area. I have been focusing on it today telling myself it's only small in size (objectively) even though it feels horrific and huge (subjectively). I posted a poem by Charles bukowski called bluebird on here a while ago. That points to what I'm getting at. It feels scary, unbeatable, unfeelable. So I shut it out. I need to find a way back to feeling that pain. As if it's something delicate and small like an injured bird..
I don't normally speak this way. Definitely don't act this way. But amongst many other things, I think it's worth a try. Not moving away from this pain and staying with it, feeling it all the way through. I think vulnerability is a big part of dp.. or lack of it


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

I just couldn't afford it. We have an MP who my sister rang and got off from a parking ticket so I'm sure she would listen to this concern, my sister even tweeted her and she replied.. #smalltownstuff

Solar Plexus Focus? no idea what that is.

Yeah sometimes it feels unbeatable alright. I wish I felt the pain, i've nothing at the moment..


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Yeh the rents had to pay for my referral. Refused that for years until I gave in cos I need to make some progress now. 
Basically focusing on the heart area and focusing on any emotions that come up. There's just complete dread and fear there, almost like I know someone is stood being me with a gun to my back. It's either that or numb. After focusing on that region for some time though through the pain with worsens and worsens, there is relaxing and a feeling of being more embodied. At the moment my torso just feels like any empty tin can. Maybe give it a go, it makes sense that it would help but I've tried this technique before and just couldn't sustain it. I imagine it would take weeks and weeks to see progress.
Out of interest have you tried clomipramine? Aka anafranil/clonofranil. Just saw a youtube cure video and apparently it's worked for others. This guy had chronic weed induced dp so will be trying it after mirtazapine. It's a tricyclic AD. Weirdly atypical antidepressants seem to be of more use generally than SSRI's


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Also the maoi is meant to have helped a lot the author of a dp book Jeffrey Abugal Isocarboxazid (Marplan, Marplon, Enerzer)


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

Yeah well it will be worth it for any progress. I had to pay Harley Street £500 for bloods when my doctor in [Redacted] refused. Felt like writing a complaint to the NHS but I just thought, **** it.

I have neither dread or positive. But i'll try it, very interesting, never really thought about this style/technic.

Nothing good happens overnight as the saying goes.

No, but Clomipramine + Lamotrigine is Kings College treatment / they studied it. Thought you would have the documents?

I've a list of 14 drugs that have worked for others. But yeah Clomipramine seems to be one that a lot of people go for with DP and KK like, so must be something to it! As long as i am suspected Bi-Polar i won't get Clomipramine or any SSRI/SNRI type thing.

(they suspect it's hormones atm, not that I would mind if i am bipolar, we just don't know ATM, the thing that adds up is I can't sleep on Mirtazapine or Sertaline)

Defiantly Mirtazapine did me good for the 3 months I could hack it, WELL that's LIE. It did me great the last 2 weeks I was on it, it started to work, until then I was spaced out, but it got my inner monologue back and feelings. If all else fails I am gonna get me some any way I can, but i've other things, starting Lamotrigine this week.

MAOI? I know NOTHING about (Marplan, Marplon, Enerzer) interesting (go on my to research list which is paused for 4 months while I see how Lamotrigine works)

We should have PM'd a long time ago but Hey, i've no problem letting people read all this lol


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Christ. Even my crap old gp did bloods.. all within range though. They didn't measure b12 though which is yet ANOTHER thing i'm looking into at the moment. Doing several things at once, just need any form of relief.

Oh Clomipramine?? That would be annoying if a tricyclic ends up helping. When I went through kings they gave me Lamotrigine + escitalopram.. and the ssri did what ssri's do (to me anyway). Made my symptoms dp/dr symptoms worse which made me more depressed. So came off it fairly quick.

This is actually the first I am hearing about clomipramine at kk. I thought they threw in clonazepam in one study.. but have just seen lamotrigine + esitalopram from their studies. Oh well. I should get mirtazapine next week now as the DP unit's shrink is on paternity leave... and the admin seems to think there's nobody else there who can prescribe.

Oh well, I spent years coming to this site reading through posts before I actually joined. I'm sure somebody out there is getting ideas from it


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Yeh I don't know anything about MAOI's, same as tricyclics and tetracyclics.. The strange thing is I have never seen somebody say 'prozac cured my chronic depersonalization!'. More often than not it's an 'old' antidepressant that I have avoided simply because the serotonin hypothesis has been oversold in the media. And they are 'old' yet are often pretty effective.. I don't know if the patents run out and that's why there are so many antidepressants


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

Aren't we all buddy. I have actually uploaded my bloods online, I could link you but it's an A4 page of boring. My new GP did 8 bottles of blood, which is what i uploaded but just checked, no B12  my endo did new bloods recently, but doubt he checked that... don't think they do often.

Well I heard they did, I know they give that too (escitalopram), I'm sure they would switch you, doctors don't fuss to much about Clomipramine as it's used commonly, Lamotrigine seemed harder to get.

Hmm, i must find my sources on Clomipramine don't want to be wrong. I'm kinda sure though as I have it in my notes. Bit busy today but search the forum 'Clomipramine Kings College' if you don't get anything, i'll go searching.

Clonazepam is something I am gonna avoid, it's very short term fix and once i got some relief (i've had it before) i'd never want to quit the thing.

I DO NOT understand why you have a hard time getting Mirtazapine, it was offered to me time and time again. It's also listed for PTSD so you could easily get your GP to understand... but you'll get it soon so who cares.

I spent 2 years before I joined, was doing the whole don't think about DP thing, 2 people are reading so, someone cares lol. I'm gonna stop talking on this forum pretty much (if i can) apart from to reply to threads I am involved in and PM's. Think I am annoying too many. Plus I kinda have my thoughts out. Got 14 treatments to try and shared my research lol.

I have no idea to your second reply like I don't. I know that when my friends have tried new anti depressants for depression and it hasn't worked the doctor has always gone to something old like Prozac, for instance a friend of mine got divorced after like 30 years and the doctor who could have picked anything said Prozac. They must be stronger in some regard.

Also Mirtazapine ( *tetracyclic* for anyone reading) as said above, stick it out, the start was not good. The second month felt like nothing but side effects and third month BOOM, all of a sudden i felt my brain rush with chemicals and thoughts and feelings... it's like my brain was blocked and it finally got in...


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Yeh the b12 serum test isn't very reliable anyway. Order the methyl version of b12 so will try that. Vitamin 1 billion and 1.

Clomipramine will probs be after mirtazapine. Yeh my gp seems ok but it's the fact I'm on modafinil and she is unsure of interactions plus wants to cover herself. Thinking of going tomoz and telling a little porky and just saying I came off it cos of the nausea.. as I asked about it being prescribed for depression anyway and that's the reason she gave.

Yeh mirtazapine is also technically an SNRI... well it acts on serotonin and norepinephrine. Effector seemed to help me before but couldn't stand the sexual side effects. If that happens again though will just live through it.


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## Hedgehog fuzz (Dec 12, 2016)

You seem to have good dialogue with your doctor who is even willing to try modafinil and now potentially mirtazapine. My psychiatrist wouldn't put me on anything above Pregabalin. the more i think about it, the more angry i get. half of this struggle is even getting the right medications. it just seems archaic in how my psychiatrist is going about prescribing. i have heard today that he has left. good riddance.

i think this thread is good.

Broken, have you got the blank mind?


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Yeh thankfully I have but have already run up against a wall with her. I see an nhs shrink once every 6 months. She just seems incompetent. Clueless about my condition and just using phrases a life coach would. Nothing of any value to be gained from seeing her.
I don't have blank mind no. It's almost as if my thoughts are too loud at points. It's to the point where I'm practicaly hearing voices around other people, I can't hear things going on around me and try to repeice what is said. That paranoia has got worse and more stressful.
Off topic but saw a bbc documentary today by horizon called 'why did I go mad?'. About schizophrenia and psychosis and how it is perhaps caused by dopamine and constant fear caused by trauma. I'm almost starting to see my dp as a form of psychosis. Will give modafinil another week or two then come off it, it's really hard to gauge progress


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

Would your body get rid of too much B12? or should I not mess with it? I'm sure my endo will test me actually or my doctor got them on side for tests.

I'm so done with supplements, i've bought everything. Well, not everything but easily £500 in the last 6 months and I am not joking, my wardrobe has a draw full instead of like socks, so when friends come round I don't look like I am selling vitamins / supplements or something. I've gone off everything really. Glutamate is the only one worth mentioning that I take ATM (feel nothing).

Yeah, I rate Mirtazapine, so good luck for sure. I'm making a trip to the GP too, he is always happy to see me, but sometimes I am like, am i bothering them? I dunno I just go that in [Redacted] while as here He is awesome, need to clear that from my head, he is there to help me.

Yeah i hear you on that. Sertraline was horrible SSRI so serotonin basically right? I hate talking about stuff that I can't credit on this site, i don't want to just know something roughly and mislead, so many people reading lol I've read that Mirtazapine up's dopamine I dunno if that's directly or not, but a quick google said so as well. Which is why I thought it changed my blank mind in 3 months, because from what i've learnt, in basics, Dopamine carries the signal in a loop causing thoughts.. i can link a youtube video that's 2 minutes on that but you might have seen me post it.


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

Apparently b12 is a water soluble vitamin so why is uneeded is just pissed away. A deficiency can give a wide range of symptoms.
Yeh my supplement hoard is ridiculous. I wrote a very anti supplement post a month ago and yet I'm back here again.
Yeh my old gp was like that, it's awful but definitely don't let it stop you. It's probably partly why I went anti meds for so long. 
Snap, sertraline was awful for me. Yeh feels like my brain needs the whole shabang. Send the link, I'm interested to see it


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

I'll test get b12 tested then.

Yeah I have gone off supplements big style, it's time for meds in my life. As i've said i've only been on two meds, so i've a world of meds to explore, 14 treatments on my to do list. Hopefully I don't need them. Your one made it to number 3 actually, after I read about it and thought, Mirtazapine did wonders and your experience and Modafinil makes sense.

short, but very good


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## Broken (Jan 1, 2017)

I duno about the test yet, might have a word with my gp. Ordered the methyl form thats a lemon flavoured sweet so kind of sublingual as well.

Need to ring my doctor tomorrow and talk about the mirtazapine. Overslept today. Will update once I have it


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## 106473 (Feb 7, 2017)

Give the Mirtazapine a few months from my experience, just ride it out


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

I could have bought so many designer clothes with the money I spent on these supplements.

And other attempts to cure...

Going to an oxygen bar, doing a sleep apnea test, colon hydrotherapy, etc.

Personally it didn't work for me.


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