# thoughts about existence - why!?



## genie (Aug 13, 2004)

Anyone who read one of my lasts posts will know that my DP is virtually not there anymore (maybe 10% still there) which is great but I am still having the same obsessive thoughts about my own existence and the nature of my existence.

Its like my mind is fixated on it. What I can't understand is why I am having these thoughts.Why do they seem so important now. Surely if they were REALLY that important I would have thought of them before in the 21 years I've been alive! Why is it that my existence seems like the freakiest, scariest thing now, but something I would never have bothered to question or even be interested with before my DP.

Its almost as though DP has left its mark on me somehow. Like its opened my mind up to all these thoughts.

I have spoken to my mum and boyfriend about it and asked them their thoughts on it and they both replied that can't even be bothered to think about those type of questions and that they dont find the thought of existence freaky in the slightest. So why I am different to them?

Is it possible for me to ever not have these thoughts and to feel normal again?!

Grrr, I'm just getting so frustrated with myself and am so desperate to feel the way I did before the DP started. Sorry for this rant!

Genie


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## genie (Aug 13, 2004)

Anyone who read one of my lasts posts will know that my DP is virtually not there anymore (maybe 10% still there) which is great but I am still having the same obsessive thoughts about my own existence and the nature of my existence.

Its like my mind is fixated on it. What I can't understand is why I am having these thoughts.Why do they seem so important now. Surely if they were REALLY that important I would have thought of them before in the 21 years I've been alive! Why is it that my existence seems like the freakiest, scariest thing now, but something I would never have bothered to question or even be interested with before my DP.

Its almost as though DP has left its mark on me somehow. Like its opened my mind up to all these thoughts.

I have spoken to my mum and boyfriend about it and asked them their thoughts on it and they both replied that can't even be bothered to think about those type of questions and that they dont find the thought of existence freaky in the slightest. So why I am different to them?

Is it possible for me to ever not have these thoughts and to feel normal again?!

Grrr, I'm just getting so frustrated with myself and am so desperate to feel the way I did before the DP started. Sorry for this rant!

Genie


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## shadowness (Sep 12, 2004)

thank you so much for posting this!

this is what i am also doing continuously...

it is odd how questioning your existance can make you feel unreal despite that fact you are real...and so if anything you should realise that you are real and ok...

if you see what i mean :?

i keep thinking about my existance all the time....especially about my eyesight....

but i am so confused as i am not sure what i am thinking...i just know i am unsure of my existance somehow...

sorry i am going off the subject.... :roll:

i have not found a way to break the obsessive thinking about life and existing and vision...

as they are the things we experience all the time and cannot get away from i suppose... and so once you feel odd about it then you will think about it all the time as you are experiencing it all the time...

maybe CBT might help? i am going to talk to my therapist about that today....

maybe hypnotherapy might help?

or reading something totally off the subjects of life and death and stuff?

if you find something that helps let me know!


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## shadowness (Sep 12, 2004)

thank you so much for posting this!

this is what i am also doing continuously...

it is odd how questioning your existance can make you feel unreal despite that fact you are real...and so if anything you should realise that you are real and ok...

if you see what i mean :?

i keep thinking about my existance all the time....especially about my eyesight....

but i am so confused as i am not sure what i am thinking...i just know i am unsure of my existance somehow...

sorry i am going off the subject.... :roll:

i have not found a way to break the obsessive thinking about life and existing and vision...

as they are the things we experience all the time and cannot get away from i suppose... and so once you feel odd about it then you will think about it all the time as you are experiencing it all the time...

maybe CBT might help? i am going to talk to my therapist about that today....

maybe hypnotherapy might help?

or reading something totally off the subjects of life and death and stuff?

if you find something that helps let me know!


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## peacedove (Aug 15, 2004)

I don't get it either. Whenever I try to explain my DP to someone, a therapist, my boyfriend, whatever... I always start with the existence and God thing cuz I believe that's what caused my DP, these thoughts. And I'll tell them doesn't it bother you that we're just here... God created the world and here we are... but who created God? He was always there. And I'm like doesn't that bother you, and they say no. And it really irritates me cuz it freaks the crap out of me. And even if you believe in the big bang theory... still same thing... infinity. I told my psychiatrist about it once and he went on this big ramble about how we're all just a ball of energy so there's really nothing to be afraid of. Didn't help me one bit obviously. Sometimes I wonder if there's something in "normal" people's brains that we don't have that makes them able to cope with their existance...some say DP is a coping mechanism, well I think the "normal ones" have the coping strategy.


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## peacedove (Aug 15, 2004)

I don't get it either. Whenever I try to explain my DP to someone, a therapist, my boyfriend, whatever... I always start with the existence and God thing cuz I believe that's what caused my DP, these thoughts. And I'll tell them doesn't it bother you that we're just here... God created the world and here we are... but who created God? He was always there. And I'm like doesn't that bother you, and they say no. And it really irritates me cuz it freaks the crap out of me. And even if you believe in the big bang theory... still same thing... infinity. I told my psychiatrist about it once and he went on this big ramble about how we're all just a ball of energy so there's really nothing to be afraid of. Didn't help me one bit obviously. Sometimes I wonder if there's something in "normal" people's brains that we don't have that makes them able to cope with their existance...some say DP is a coping mechanism, well I think the "normal ones" have the coping strategy.


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## jw1234 (Aug 10, 2004)

Hey everyone-

Just wanted to post and let you all know that you are not alone, I suffer almost the exact same thoughts and feelings.

I know its been written up on this board heaps, but I think the biggest problem is that there is no answer to this particular dilemma. (as i am sure you have all been told) It is the most frustrating thing ever because there are no coping strategies you can really use except to just not think about it, and accept it, and to be comfortable in NOT knowing... which sounds virtually impossible.

I originally went on meds for panic attacks and dp/dr, caused by cannabis use. I came off meds twice, only to have panic attacks and dp/dr caused by constant rumination of the sort we are discussing here. All i could think about was how impossible our existence is, and how mindfucking the concept of the beginning of everything is and all that. I looked for answers everywhere and became an anxious mess. It was obsessive. Being back on effexor has really helped me get more involved in my life and helps the obsessions, but like you said genie - it leaves a mark, and once your mind is opened, its hard to close it.

Like most other obsessions, I beleive in the Janine school of thought, where it is probably masking a more ordinary anxiety. Others have said that the thoughts and feelings arise BECAUSE you are anxious, and not, as I maintained, that the thoughts were MAKING me anxious. Janine has said many times that in order to master the obsession, you must first stop BELEIVING in it, which would make sense to me if it was something like hand washing or counting, which a logical mind could see it was pointless... and even though the logical mind tells me that this constant rumination on the nature of existence and consiousness will get me nowhere but more questions, the logical mind also tells me that these questions are valid.

You can see the cycle already beginning here. Do it enough and you will get very, very dizzy. Its a tough one, and I just wanted to chime in my two cents.

If anyone has any similar experiences or coping strategies, please make yourself heard!=]

Best wishes to all,
j


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## jw1234 (Aug 10, 2004)

Hey everyone-

Just wanted to post and let you all know that you are not alone, I suffer almost the exact same thoughts and feelings.

I know its been written up on this board heaps, but I think the biggest problem is that there is no answer to this particular dilemma. (as i am sure you have all been told) It is the most frustrating thing ever because there are no coping strategies you can really use except to just not think about it, and accept it, and to be comfortable in NOT knowing... which sounds virtually impossible.

I originally went on meds for panic attacks and dp/dr, caused by cannabis use. I came off meds twice, only to have panic attacks and dp/dr caused by constant rumination of the sort we are discussing here. All i could think about was how impossible our existence is, and how mindfucking the concept of the beginning of everything is and all that. I looked for answers everywhere and became an anxious mess. It was obsessive. Being back on effexor has really helped me get more involved in my life and helps the obsessions, but like you said genie - it leaves a mark, and once your mind is opened, its hard to close it.

Like most other obsessions, I beleive in the Janine school of thought, where it is probably masking a more ordinary anxiety. Others have said that the thoughts and feelings arise BECAUSE you are anxious, and not, as I maintained, that the thoughts were MAKING me anxious. Janine has said many times that in order to master the obsession, you must first stop BELEIVING in it, which would make sense to me if it was something like hand washing or counting, which a logical mind could see it was pointless... and even though the logical mind tells me that this constant rumination on the nature of existence and consiousness will get me nowhere but more questions, the logical mind also tells me that these questions are valid.

You can see the cycle already beginning here. Do it enough and you will get very, very dizzy. Its a tough one, and I just wanted to chime in my two cents.

If anyone has any similar experiences or coping strategies, please make yourself heard!=]

Best wishes to all,
j


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## Kerio (Sep 13, 2004)

The interesting thing is that most, if not all of us, suffer from "over-analysis" and have this philosophical turn of mind. I wonder why is it that so many DP sufferers have this "Problem"? (I don't see it as a problem, because I enjoy exploring the ideas that attack me from time to time)

Like I said in one of my previous posts, the brain evolved the image of "self", and learnt to be "self-conscious". The question is not only How, but also in Why. Was it necessary for survival? Or was it perhaps a byproduct of the brain's evolutionary process?

In any case, this image of "self" prevents most people from asking the questions we do. It is precisely that we don't have this 'image' that we are able to quite comfortably (amidst our anxiety attacks, screaming and cutting ourselves) ask the question : "Am I just a piece of meat made to reproduce?"

And when Agent Smith said :" Only humans can invent something as _insipid_ as love," I felt I couldn't agree more.

We seem to be so devoid of certain feelings that I suppose it gives us a more objective POV of the world, I suppose. I mean, who here has questioned authority? From the number of hands I can metaphorically see, I can see that this may not be a bad thing. We've overcome the herd instinct, at least. Why the hell should we follow? seems to be a common question. For me, at least.

My favourite lament used to be that the world was a speck compared to the rest of the universe, planets circled huge stars which would become sun-like bodies, and expand to shrink and explode into a black hole, centuries of life teemed in the various planets, and dinosaurs ruled the earth so many millions of years back, and here was some prick threatening to give me Demerit points for having hair longer than the school standard.

And what about the mindless existence so many of our comrades live with? They live, they study, they work, get married, have kids, and then they die. Every generation, every life, so different in the details, but so alike in the big picture. So many generations, and no one questions "WHY?". They just follow the pack, and sneer at people who are different. And when we ask them for the reason, they distract themselves so they wouldn't have to think about it.

As you can see, from a certain point of view, we may be different and we may feel sick, but somehow, we may just be the next evolutionary stage in human existence.


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## Kerio (Sep 13, 2004)

The interesting thing is that most, if not all of us, suffer from "over-analysis" and have this philosophical turn of mind. I wonder why is it that so many DP sufferers have this "Problem"? (I don't see it as a problem, because I enjoy exploring the ideas that attack me from time to time)

Like I said in one of my previous posts, the brain evolved the image of "self", and learnt to be "self-conscious". The question is not only How, but also in Why. Was it necessary for survival? Or was it perhaps a byproduct of the brain's evolutionary process?

In any case, this image of "self" prevents most people from asking the questions we do. It is precisely that we don't have this 'image' that we are able to quite comfortably (amidst our anxiety attacks, screaming and cutting ourselves) ask the question : "Am I just a piece of meat made to reproduce?"

And when Agent Smith said :" Only humans can invent something as _insipid_ as love," I felt I couldn't agree more.

We seem to be so devoid of certain feelings that I suppose it gives us a more objective POV of the world, I suppose. I mean, who here has questioned authority? From the number of hands I can metaphorically see, I can see that this may not be a bad thing. We've overcome the herd instinct, at least. Why the hell should we follow? seems to be a common question. For me, at least.

My favourite lament used to be that the world was a speck compared to the rest of the universe, planets circled huge stars which would become sun-like bodies, and expand to shrink and explode into a black hole, centuries of life teemed in the various planets, and dinosaurs ruled the earth so many millions of years back, and here was some prick threatening to give me Demerit points for having hair longer than the school standard.

And what about the mindless existence so many of our comrades live with? They live, they study, they work, get married, have kids, and then they die. Every generation, every life, so different in the details, but so alike in the big picture. So many generations, and no one questions "WHY?". They just follow the pack, and sneer at people who are different. And when we ask them for the reason, they distract themselves so they wouldn't have to think about it.

As you can see, from a certain point of view, we may be different and we may feel sick, but somehow, we may just be the next evolutionary stage in human existence.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi Guys
I too am pretty much recovered. I am just taking 50mg of Luvox & am only left with these thoughts on consciousness, me & my vision. The existence thing was the first thing that triggered this off. I was pondering the meaning of life & had a panic attack. From then on I spiralled & almost a year later here I am.

To deal with the why am I here & what is life about questions I have put it into perspective this way. I am here because I am here just like everyone else, I don't need to ask why. If I keep asking why an infinite number of questions surrounding the possible reasons will keep resounding. It is like asking why is the sky blue & not red & why do we have blue & red? Pretty silly huh?I thought ok I am here & these questions are pointless. So I just started to enjoy the sun, the blue of the sky & be thankful that in whatever form & whatever consciousness I could experience this.

I can now say to you that when I am exhausted I get dp & today is one of those days. I keep questioning why can I see, I feel funny to see? Stupid but it won't leave me. I know it is just another state of consciousness causing these questions & it will pass.

My psych said that he doesn't know why we get these questions but it is a result of anxiety & it does pass.

Just keep telling yourself it is anxiety & don't buy into it. concentrate on reality.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi Guys
I too am pretty much recovered. I am just taking 50mg of Luvox & am only left with these thoughts on consciousness, me & my vision. The existence thing was the first thing that triggered this off. I was pondering the meaning of life & had a panic attack. From then on I spiralled & almost a year later here I am.

To deal with the why am I here & what is life about questions I have put it into perspective this way. I am here because I am here just like everyone else, I don't need to ask why. If I keep asking why an infinite number of questions surrounding the possible reasons will keep resounding. It is like asking why is the sky blue & not red & why do we have blue & red? Pretty silly huh?I thought ok I am here & these questions are pointless. So I just started to enjoy the sun, the blue of the sky & be thankful that in whatever form & whatever consciousness I could experience this.

I can now say to you that when I am exhausted I get dp & today is one of those days. I keep questioning why can I see, I feel funny to see? Stupid but it won't leave me. I know it is just another state of consciousness causing these questions & it will pass.

My psych said that he doesn't know why we get these questions but it is a result of anxiety & it does pass.

Just keep telling yourself it is anxiety & don't buy into it. concentrate on reality.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

jw1234 up there brought up an excellent point.

These ARE valid questions (about life, the meaning of reality, etc.). They are enormously valid and fascinating and pondering them is part of being human.

But...(you knew there was a 'but' didn't you? grin)....there is a huge difference between philosophy and obsession.

When we, as dp types, obsess about Life Questions, we are not exploring the possibilities and asking questions to learn more questions. We are actually under the DELUSION that there are Answers.

We are not asking those questions to expand our thinking - we are asking them in an effort to reach a Conclusion that will SATIATE us, soothe us, ground us, and define us. Illusion.

We are driven by these obsessions because we've got the entire concept Backwards. Those questions are for questioning, not solving. Those questions are for mind expansion, not mind soothing.

We are desperately seeking an END to the questions. Those questions, however, only breed more questions.

We delude ourselves into thinking that if we just phrase the question RIGHT and explore it RIGHT and seek the RIGHT sources, we will finally reach a point of satisfaction. All will make sense. We will finally "get it" and be delivered from our need to locate the holy grail.

Holy grail is a ghost. It flitters and teases and flys in your face and laughs. It is to be SOUGHT, not found.

Nothing wrong with asking these questions once you recover from your current mental symptoms. But in conjunction with those symtpoms, these questions are tormentors and liars, not mind amusements.

You will, in this current state, NEVER succeed in finding answers that satisfy you. NEVER. That is what you need to "get" - if you can truly believe that, you will stop the obsessing. But you dont' believe it, because you are in the grips of the obsession itself. You are convinced day in and day out that you WILL find the bottom of the abyss of it all, and once there, you will settle down and find some relief from those questions. And I am telling you guys, there are only more questions at the bottom. Seek and ye shall NOT find. Seek, and ye shall just produce more seeking.

Peace,
J


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

jw1234 up there brought up an excellent point.

These ARE valid questions (about life, the meaning of reality, etc.). They are enormously valid and fascinating and pondering them is part of being human.

But...(you knew there was a 'but' didn't you? grin)....there is a huge difference between philosophy and obsession.

When we, as dp types, obsess about Life Questions, we are not exploring the possibilities and asking questions to learn more questions. We are actually under the DELUSION that there are Answers.

We are not asking those questions to expand our thinking - we are asking them in an effort to reach a Conclusion that will SATIATE us, soothe us, ground us, and define us. Illusion.

We are driven by these obsessions because we've got the entire concept Backwards. Those questions are for questioning, not solving. Those questions are for mind expansion, not mind soothing.

We are desperately seeking an END to the questions. Those questions, however, only breed more questions.

We delude ourselves into thinking that if we just phrase the question RIGHT and explore it RIGHT and seek the RIGHT sources, we will finally reach a point of satisfaction. All will make sense. We will finally "get it" and be delivered from our need to locate the holy grail.

Holy grail is a ghost. It flitters and teases and flys in your face and laughs. It is to be SOUGHT, not found.

Nothing wrong with asking these questions once you recover from your current mental symptoms. But in conjunction with those symtpoms, these questions are tormentors and liars, not mind amusements.

You will, in this current state, NEVER succeed in finding answers that satisfy you. NEVER. That is what you need to "get" - if you can truly believe that, you will stop the obsessing. But you dont' believe it, because you are in the grips of the obsession itself. You are convinced day in and day out that you WILL find the bottom of the abyss of it all, and once there, you will settle down and find some relief from those questions. And I am telling you guys, there are only more questions at the bottom. Seek and ye shall NOT find. Seek, and ye shall just produce more seeking.

Peace,
J


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## Kerio (Sep 13, 2004)

Same for me - I seek not because I want answers - I know there are none - but somehow I hope to find that elusive answer to my existence (and I know it won't be found). The seeking soothes me, but it also helps me. Over the years of stringent analysis, I've realised that literature, words, civilization, are both boon and bane. They give gentleness and warmth and beauty with one hand, but hold your mind with the other, and there it stays, entrapped within the boundaries of itself.

I'm not sure if i could live the life of self-deceit, necessary as it may be (why?) to live a "normal" life. I want to continue asking, seeking, looking, thinking - but I want to do all that with a clearer mind. By distracting themselves with other things in life people avoid asking certain questions - but is that really the way to live? Is stagnancy such an attractive prize? Or is the prospect of change too much to bear?

Perhaps I will never know - I got hit into DP too early to really understand what being "Normal" was about. I don't think I ever will be. But that doesn't fill me with dread - just a insatiable thirst to understand (not Know).


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## Kerio (Sep 13, 2004)

Same for me - I seek not because I want answers - I know there are none - but somehow I hope to find that elusive answer to my existence (and I know it won't be found). The seeking soothes me, but it also helps me. Over the years of stringent analysis, I've realised that literature, words, civilization, are both boon and bane. They give gentleness and warmth and beauty with one hand, but hold your mind with the other, and there it stays, entrapped within the boundaries of itself.

I'm not sure if i could live the life of self-deceit, necessary as it may be (why?) to live a "normal" life. I want to continue asking, seeking, looking, thinking - but I want to do all that with a clearer mind. By distracting themselves with other things in life people avoid asking certain questions - but is that really the way to live? Is stagnancy such an attractive prize? Or is the prospect of change too much to bear?

Perhaps I will never know - I got hit into DP too early to really understand what being "Normal" was about. I don't think I ever will be. But that doesn't fill me with dread - just a insatiable thirst to understand (not Know).


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## peacedove (Aug 15, 2004)

Maybe I wanted answers when I first had these thoughts, but I just don't give a fuck anymore, I just want peace of mind.


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## peacedove (Aug 15, 2004)

Maybe I wanted answers when I first had these thoughts, but I just don't give a fuck anymore, I just want peace of mind.


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## Johanna (Aug 15, 2004)

Same here. Also I feel that dp has left its mark on me somehow, although dp itself is gone most of the time. Why it has opened my mind up to all these thoughts about the existence, has something to do with the fact that for two months my reality and consciousness altered, it felt they were in an other state. I quess it would be somewhat abnormal if that wouldn't arouse questions and fears concerning own existence. Or I dunno, but it has got to be somehow dp-related, or anxious..

And same here again, I can't say I enjoy exploring ideas or feel curious about finding the answers; suddenly the existence, death and life's circulation are just so present. Everyday matters feel so trivial and trifling.

And what you "Kerio" said about people just following the pack and sneering at those who think with any greater subtlety. Many people may feel happy on their deathbeds when they think they have lived their lives according to norms, followed the pack perfectly and managed to avoid to think any fundamental matters.

I am not saying Im something different, as I haven't been especially philosophical either, as a matter of fact this is the first time I'm thinking these issues, at least with this extent.


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## Johanna (Aug 15, 2004)

Same here. Also I feel that dp has left its mark on me somehow, although dp itself is gone most of the time. Why it has opened my mind up to all these thoughts about the existence, has something to do with the fact that for two months my reality and consciousness altered, it felt they were in an other state. I quess it would be somewhat abnormal if that wouldn't arouse questions and fears concerning own existence. Or I dunno, but it has got to be somehow dp-related, or anxious..

And same here again, I can't say I enjoy exploring ideas or feel curious about finding the answers; suddenly the existence, death and life's circulation are just so present. Everyday matters feel so trivial and trifling.

And what you "Kerio" said about people just following the pack and sneering at those who think with any greater subtlety. Many people may feel happy on their deathbeds when they think they have lived their lives according to norms, followed the pack perfectly and managed to avoid to think any fundamental matters.

I am not saying Im something different, as I haven't been especially philosophical either, as a matter of fact this is the first time I'm thinking these issues, at least with this extent.


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## Johanna (Aug 15, 2004)

I also feel there is nobody in my circle of acquaintances who'd understand me and be on the same wavelength. I've asked a couple of my closest friends if they ever think about existence and mortality (I mean really think about it), or get anxious cause of those, but haven't found a soulmate yet. During my life I haven't have many good conversations about those subjects, maybe people just manage so well to distract themselves from thinking anything fundamental.

And what really interests me - is it anxiety that causes these thoughts or the opposite? It's probably a cycle, but which was it that came in the first place? I also would like to know which came first: depression, anxiety or dp.

What is CBT by the way? (shadowness you mentioned) Im sorry of my stupidity, but I'm not native english..


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## Johanna (Aug 15, 2004)

I also feel there is nobody in my circle of acquaintances who'd understand me and be on the same wavelength. I've asked a couple of my closest friends if they ever think about existence and mortality (I mean really think about it), or get anxious cause of those, but haven't found a soulmate yet. During my life I haven't have many good conversations about those subjects, maybe people just manage so well to distract themselves from thinking anything fundamental.

And what really interests me - is it anxiety that causes these thoughts or the opposite? It's probably a cycle, but which was it that came in the first place? I also would like to know which came first: depression, anxiety or dp.

What is CBT by the way? (shadowness you mentioned) Im sorry of my stupidity, but I'm not native english..


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## shadowness (Sep 12, 2004)

Johanna said:


> And what really interests me - is it anxiety that causes these thoughts or the opposite? It's probably a cycle, but which was it that came in the first place? I also would like to know which came first: depression, anxiety or dp.
> 
> What is CBT by the way? (shadowness you mentioned) Im sorry of my stupidity, but I'm not native english..


CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy  and you are not stupid so there is no need to apologise 

i have been told that my dp/dr are products of anxiety and depression...as i have had them for years and now it has taken hold of me more....

and just as i was getting better i had a major set back and then the dp/dr developed...


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## shadowness (Sep 12, 2004)

Johanna said:


> And what really interests me - is it anxiety that causes these thoughts or the opposite? It's probably a cycle, but which was it that came in the first place? I also would like to know which came first: depression, anxiety or dp.
> 
> What is CBT by the way? (shadowness you mentioned) Im sorry of my stupidity, but I'm not native english..


CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy  and you are not stupid so there is no need to apologise 

i have been told that my dp/dr are products of anxiety and depression...as i have had them for years and now it has taken hold of me more....

and just as i was getting better i had a major set back and then the dp/dr developed...


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