# read books on getting rid of spiritual attachments



## klt123

all of you.. do a search wether you believe or not.


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## Guest

Have you some books in mind? I myself believe that if you link DR/DP to spiritualism, it will aid the DR/DP rather then crush it... depends what you wish to gain within our dream world... is it time to wake up?


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## LOSTONE

I think this is a very interesting topic.

KLT123 I am wondering why you brought this up?

Is there some spiritual attachment that you have needed to detach yourself from?

I am just wondering, what is the motivation behind your desire for spiritual detachment?

I won't comment on your answer. I am just curious about your motivation. Why do you want to be spiritually detached? And what do you think is your motivation for wanting to read books that will help you detach from your spiritual attachments?


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## Rozanne

Could you write more about what you mean ktl? I assume spiritual attachments are belief systems/sentiments?

My belief inventory is as follows. I believe in:

the spirit, the mind and the Logos


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## LOSTONE

> Logos


 :?:

What is that?


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## Guest

Think that was a typo LOSTONE.... She meant "Legos":


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## Guest

Darren said:


> Think that was a typo LOSTONE.... She meant "Legos":












PMSL :lol: She looks shocked though......Just like one of those Japanese love dolls :mrgreen:

Greg


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## LOSTONE

LOL

I was thinking of the literal logo.










Legos are cool though.










Yoda came here looking for the girl.

He may be a lego but he is still strong with the force. Don't mess with him!


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## Guest

Im still the same person said:


> PMSL :lol: She looks shocked though......Just like one of those Japanese love dolls :mrgreen:
> 
> Greg


I think the idea of "looking" shocked is due to the mouth being wide open for "you know what"... :lol: :wink:


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## Guest

LOSTONE said:


> Logos
> 
> 
> 
> :?:
> 
> What is that?
Click to expand...

A nutty female comment... = need I say more? :lol:


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## Rozanne

Logos = word made flesh as far as I am aware. It seems a nice alternate name for God.


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## LOSTONE

> Logos = word made flesh





> It seems a nice alternate name for God.


Now I am very confused. 
My God is Jehovah and he don't have any alternate names.

I don't know who Logos is if that is a God.

I did some reading and found that there was a Greek word translated Logos that basically means logic and it has been used in philosophy and religion before. I read that Philo of Alexandria started the teaching that the Gospel of John identifies Jesus as the incarnation of the Logos, through which all things are made. Also that the gospel further identifies the Logos as God (theos), providing scriptural support for the trinity. It is this sense, the Logos as Jesus Christ and God, that is most common in popular culture.

Philo of Alexandria, was a man that used allegory or "logic" to fuse and harmonize Greek philosophy and Judaism. His method followed the practices of both Jewish exegesis and Stoic philosophy. His work was not widely accepted.

So the way I would look at that teaching is that it is totally pagan from it's very start.

I don't think it would be right to say that Logos is an alternative for God's name. The name of the God of the bible is most commonly translated into English as "Jehovah". Logos seems to basically be a teaching that God does not even really exist.

Maybe I have gotten this messed up.

Logos is new to me so please help me out if I have missed something here.

Sorry if my calling it a pagan teaching is offensive to you. From my viewpoint, I must personally view it as pagan because it seems to be a teaching of unification between the bible and Greek philosophy. I believe that the bible is the word of God but you can believe whatever you want.

If I am wrong about what Logos is then please correct me.


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## LOSTONE

I think this has gotten way off topic from what klt123's post was all about.

Sorry about that, if it was my fault.

I just became interested in Logos because that term is totally new to me.

KLT123 really if you want spiritual detachment then it is not that hard to accomplish. You don't need to really read any books or anything. You just need to believe for yourself that their is no real such thing as spirituality. It is hard to prove that to yourself though when you obviously realize that it is real because it is something that you are trying to get ride of.

If you have spiritual attachments then why do you want to force them away from you? Is there a reason? If you have found evidence that your spirituality has been misplaced then maybe removing it is not the right answer. Maybe it just needs to be directed away from where it is now and redirected into a better place. There are different types of spirituality. If you want to remove your spirituality all together then I would guess that you would spend a lot of time looking into the evolution theory or something like that, although even some that believe in evolution still have a sense of spirituality, believing in evolution is probably the biggest blow you can deal to your spirituality I think.

I would advise that you think about the question that I asked you though. 
Why do you want to cut off your spiritual attachments in the first place?
And do you really want to have no spirituality at all or are you just looking for something better then what you now have?

*Before you can find what you want, you must know what you are looking for!!!*


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## Rozanne

Dear Lostone, 
As you already know...I don't follow the same religious beliefs/doctrine as you, therefore it's not necessarioly offensive to be called pagan because I don't call myself a Christian. On the other hand, pagans are associated with unbridled enjoyment of anything available on this earth and not curtailing their behavior to fit in with any moral structure of moderation, therefore I do find kind of offensive to be called a pagan, even if I have occasionally acted like that. It's clear that I am not going to fit your idea of a religious person so I won't try. I also just want to say that I also haven't read a lot, but nearly all my beliefs stem from my experience of the subtle body. For me that makes more sense and is more meaningful than reading the bible. Since childhood, taking the Bible literally made no real connection with me as a person, though I believe the central messages of Christ are good/true.

Basically I see a lot of religious organisations as man-made constructs. 
I respect people's desire to sign up to something and feel they belong. But I see that as driven by fear of the unknown.


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## LOSTONE

Angel_Ariel I like what you said about not being a Christian. Many people are very confused about what a Christian is. Anyway your idea of what I mean when I say pagan is probably a lot different then the way I view the word pagan.

I simply view pagan as a word used to point out any teaching that does not come from the bible. Usually I would use the word to point toward many of the teachings amongst so called "Christians" that are obviously directly opposed to what the bible says. Most of those false teachings come from ancient forms of worship of other God's (God's besides the God of the bible).

I looked the word up though and I found a disturbing definition for the word.

*1. an offensive term that deliberately insults somebody who does not acknowledge the God of the Bible, Torah, or Koran*

I don't use it in that way at all. I never try to deliberately insult anyone. 
It would not make me happy to insult other people for their beliefs. I only personally believe that any teaching that does not come from the bible is false and does not originate with God. So I refer to all those other teachings as Pagan.

Just so you know though, my belief about God's judgments is that God judges people with righteousness. He does not kill people simply for not believing in the bible. There is much more wisdom involved in his judgments and it is far beyond my ability or my authority to judge anyone, even myself.

So if I were to ever look down on anyone for their beliefs or anything like that then it is my belief that my God would be very unhappy with me for that. He has not given me any authority to judge anyone and therefore I always do my best to keep an open mind toward other people.

When it comes to the teachings though, I must stick to the bible. I do make judgments upon teachings and ideas because I view false teachings as being like poison and I don't want any poison. I have had enough poison already so I use the word pagan to label any teaching that I know does not come from the bible.

Angel_Ariel it would be my hope that you may take another look at the bible. I make no judgments about you directly at all. I simply believe that any teaching that does not come from the bible is false and it is not the truth. And I also believe that those teachings are harmful for anyone taking them seriously.



> Basically I see a lot of religious organisations as man-made constructs.


So do I.

I believe that there is only 1 *true* God and there is only 1 teaching that comes from that God. Everything else in my mind is a man-made construct just as you said. That is also what the bible says, so my thoughts are in line with the bible about that.

I do not believe that *all* religious organizations are man made though. I do believe that there is a religion that does have God's approval. The bible actually talks about this religion in a few different places, there are actually prophecies in the bible about this religion.

My opinion is that if you are going to take the bible seriously then you should look to the bible for answers. I don't understand why anyone would mesh the bible's teachings in with any other teachings. What Philo did really makes no sense to me. This is actually the very reason there are so many millions of religions in the world. People mix and match religious teachings as if they are mixing drinks or something like that. I think it is wise that no matter what you believe in, everyone should take the subject of religion very seriously. Even if your belief is in evolution.

Finding the truth really is a matter of life and death.

That is the way I have always looked at it.


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## Rozanne

Dear Lostone, 
Thankyou for being so kind on me, considering you probably think I'm going to hell. Oh gosh, now I sound sarcastic.

I have realised tonight that for much of my life I have not believed in evil. For some strange reason I have found it hard to even conceptualise the possibility that someone or people may have an ill-will towards me. I wouldn't necessarily call this innocence, or even naivity, but a form of ignorance.

In that respect I would be interested in reading more of the Bible. Now I actually believe in evil and malevoence, within myself as well as other people.

I believe in one God.

I think the world would be a better place if we all followed one true doctrine. But in a sense, it takes away a person's autonomy to prescribe that.

It is very off-putting for me that the old testament refers to women as commodities, rules about marriage and the like, and how attractive people are. I don't really like that side of the Bible, but prefere the verses on the Holy Spirit, the light of God, lamb of God. In a sense that is a pick and mix attitude to the religion because to really get down on your knees and ask for God's help is an acknowledgment of the flaws of the human condition (IMHO)..self and others.

I guess I find it interesting that Christianity is driven by this life and death challenge. ...I mean, it is understandablt that that is the scariest thing for a person to face....i'm just rambling now. In essense, I agree there should be an element of fear in religion, it is what contrasts with the sense of existance being futile.

I have to admit to thinking about life after death recently, something I believe in strongly, having actually left my body on more than one occasion and also seen lights on a regular basis.


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## LOSTONE

> considering you probably think I'm going to hell.


If there is anyone that I would ever judge in that way then it would only be myself. :wink:

Most of the time I view everyone else on the planet as being better then I am. I have been through a lot of stuff that I will never even be able to talk to anyone about and when I think about it all when I am praying to God then all I can do is cry about it. DP/DR has dragged me down into the deepest pits I ever thought it could be possible to go into, and then it dragged me even deeper still. So I have no way possible to look at anyone else on earth (even Hitler or George Bush) and say anything like "you are going to helllllll!"

No Jehovah's Witness that I know would ever say anything like that to anybody.

Actually the reality about hell from the bible's standpoint is that hell is simply the grave. That is where everyone goes when they die. Jesus even prayed that God not forsake him in Hades!! He prayed for that because Jesus himself has been in hell!! 
That is why the teaching of a literal burning tormenting hell fire is so retarded. The common teaching about hell is in absolute contradiction with what the bible teaches about God and about everything else..

In reality the God of the bible is an extremely forgiving and loving God. The entire point of the whole bible is mainly the message of God's abundant and undeserved kindness and love that he has displayed toward mankind. The teaching about hell is simply a teaching that was made up to put fear into people and at the same time it makes God look evil.

Now you can believe anything you want but I can prove to you that the common teaching about hell is not a teaching that comes from the bible.



> I have realised tonight that for much of my life I have not believed in evil. For some strange reason I have found it hard to even conceptualise the possibility that someone or people may have an ill-will towards me. I wouldn't necessarily call this innocence, or even naivity, but a form of ignorance.


Yes I understand this very well. Personally I would call it a willful ignorance because it is kind of a deliberate action that takes place in the mind to simply not accept what is not wanted. It is hard to face the facts and realize that there are very evil things happening all around you all the time. It is hard to accept because once that is accepted then you have to come to the realization that something very evil may happen to you at any moment. Maybe this is not the case for you but I think that there are many people that think this way. They don't want to believe anything bad can happen to them and so that is simply their reality. Obviously the reality in our minds and the "real" reality are not always lined up right. It can cause us a lot of pain to not face up to the facts of life.



> In that respect I would be interested in reading more of the Bible.


If you have any thoughts that the bible may actually be inspired by God then the bible is the best place to goto for answers. If someone tells you about some teaching that they say comes from the bible then you should ask them to show you where in the bible that teaching is located so you can read it for yourself. Much of what is commonly believed about the bible is actually wrong, like the teaching of a literal hellfire for example. That teaching is in contradiction with everything the bible stands for.

The price you pay for sin is simply death. There is nothing worse then death. Once you have died then God does not require any further payment for sin. This is why Jesus death is able to cover over our sins. Because it is was equal payment for sin of the perfect man Adam. Jesus did not need to burn in a literal hellfire for eternity to make up for our sins. He only needed to give up his live. His death was good enough payment for our error. God's law is that the price of sin is death. So when Adam sinned then the only way any of his offspring would be able to live eternally would be if a perfect man were to sacrifice his life for the rest of us. That is exactly what Jehovah asked Jesus to do for us.

Ro 6:23
For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 John 4:8
He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love.

God is love!
That means that his love is the defining trait of who he is and what he is all about.

God would never get pleasure out of torturing people!

By the way, here is the bible if you want to read it.
http://watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm



> I believe in one God.


That makes me happy to hear. 
You may want to ask yourself what God do you believe in though?
And who is this God? Do you know him well, do you understand all of his motives and desires for the earth? Do you know what that one God wants you to do in order to gain his approval? If you believe in one God then these are questions you should do everything in your power to find good answer to. That is if you have not already found satisfying answers.



> I think the world would be a better place if we all followed one true doctrine.


Yes that would be true for the bible anyway. Most of the world has shared the same beliefs at one point in history though and they were based upon the bible but there were still major problems here. Those days were filled with war even though most of the people going to war were fighting in the name of the God of the bible. Their actions were totally against bible teachings but sadly most of them did not even realize that.

I can say with full assurance though that if everyone were to get baptized as a Jehovah's Witness tomorrow then all wars would be over with forever. Even jails and prisons would be a thing of the past because there would be no further use for them.
*The Jehovah's Witnesses have already fulfilled the prophecy found at Isaiah 2:2-4*

*2 And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. 3 And many peoples will certainly go and say: ?Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.? For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. 4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.*

That is a simple fact. 
Anyone here can disagree with the teachings but the fact is that the Jehovah's Witnesses have proven themselves to be totally peaceful as a whole. No members of Jehovah's Witnesses fight in any of the wars on earth and they do not commit any crimes in any nations on earth unless the law of their land is in direct violation with the bible. For example: if a law came out that the preaching work was made illegal then that would never stop the Witnesses from preaching because the preaching work is a requirement for anyone wanting to follow in Jesus footsteps.

So I agree with you Angel_ariel. Actually I will go even further and say that I know for sure that eventually this entire world will be filled with people that are peaceful and loving, because it is a promise that my God has made to his people and the word of the God of the bible has always held up to be true. No prophecy in the bible has ever been wrong.



> But in a sense, it takes away a person's autonomy to prescribe that.


I am not sure exactly what you mean by that. 
If you mean that it would take away from humans the power to rule over themselves then I agree with you. Humans would lose the power to decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong. I don't view that as a bad thing though. Everyone would still be very unique and we would all still have free will to do whatever we want to do. The only difference would be that our laws that we live by would no longer be made up by men but they would be put in place and enforced by God.

In a very big way, it actually provides us with a much greater deal of freedom to know what really is right and what really is wrong. The reason is because the laws of men are actually much more restrictive then the laws of God. This is proven just by counting the laws that the Hebrew people had and the number of laws that most governments of today have. There is no comparing them. The Hebrew law was the most simple set of laws ever devised and it protected the Hebrew people rather then enslaving them. The law of the bible is a protection, it has nothing to do with oppression. It is the laws that we have now that are oppressive while at the same time mostly useless at enforcing real justice.



> t is very off-putting for me that the old testament refers to women as commodities


It was never God's desire for Women to ever be put into the position that they have been put into throughout much of history. God did at one time make provisions to regulate the practice of polygamy but he only did this because as the bible says, those people were stiff necked. God also made provisions for slavery even though slavery is obviously something that God had never planned out for humans. He made provisions so that his people would not become to abusive with their slaves or with their wives. Both the treatment of women and the issue of slavery was displeasing to God though.

It is made very clear the way God views women by the actions of Jesus Christ. In the time period that Jesus was living in, most men would not even speak to women in public. There was even a formal prayer where some men would pray to God and thank him for letting them be born men and not women. Jesus however treated women very differently from how other people were treating women. For example the first person that he ever spoke to about the fact that he was the messiah was actually a women! Also when he was resurrected from the dead, he made his first appearance to women and he told the women to go and tell the other men about his being resurrected. He gave that honer to the women and not the men.

There is much more I could say about that but the main thing to keep in mind about the Hebrew scriptures is that the Hebrews had a special covenant with God for a very good reason. They were not perfect people and they had their own problems of that time period that seem really messed up to us these days. God's teachings about how he wants humans to be living in paradise is PERFECT! If we actually did exactly what the bible says then everyone would be happy. God would not have to solve our problems because we would be solving our problems by ourselves simply by applying the bible teachings into our lives and doing what God says. The problem with the Hebrews was obviously that they did not always obey God's laws and they almost never listened to God's advise. God knew that the Hebrew people would have had serious trouble with doing away with things like polygamy and slavery so he made laws simply to protect anyone involved in polygamy/slavery. God never condoned either of those things though.



> I agree there should be an element of fear in religion


The only fear I would have is the fear that people would turn away from God. In reality we are all in the same position anyway. We are all born sinners in an imperfect world.

What is way way more of a bigger deal then fear is "Love". Love is the defining quality of Jesus followers and it is what gives them the ability to keep moving forward no matter what they face in life. Love is what should motivate people to serve God, not fear. God does not want people to be scared to death of him and be terrified of him as if he were some kind of monster. He created us out of love and love is really all he is asking back from us. The fear of God is the fear of losing his good favor. It is the fear of losing that loving relationship and having the darkness and the void cover over you. If you are already in darkness then there is really not that much to fear except what is already a reality for basically all of us, that is death.


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## Rozanne

Hi...I will read and respond to your post later, as it is quite long and thought out I can't do it right now. I just wanted to say one short thing, though on the bit about "one true doctrine". This makes me sound like a complete hippocrit. Truth can't be prescibed but for me, realising the evil within myself - and other people - has been a very painfully real experience. I suppose i think the world would be a better place if we all were able to be humbled by such realisations and keep it firm in mind at all times - on this I sort of agree with the religious outlook that it matters how to behave. I'm starting to think one of the biggest sins (of my own life) is complacency due to a belief that, in some way, I did not have to work to be good enough for other people. I thought it was self-apparent that my intentions were good. By blocking out reality, life became more supperficial and the possibility of meeting God with any desperation was eliminated by a glossy surface of willful ignorance. In some strange way I find a lot of meaning in the deep pain of being. It's just about the only thing that really makes me feel alive, for some reason. I'll reply in depth to your post later.


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## LOSTONE

Angel_Ariel one thing that you seem to have going for you really well is that you seem to understand yourself better then most people do.

If you do understand yourself well then that will be good because maybe you will realize that much of what you believe in is actually a choice.

The human mind is an amazing thing. I think it is important for all of us to understand ourselves so that we know exactly why we do what we do and why we believe what we believe.

This is why I was asking KLT123 those questions before. I think it is important that we all take time out to understand our own motivations for doing things.



> Truth can't be prescibed but for me


 

Just so you know.

Truth is not prescribed to anyone. Each one of us makes up our own truth for ourselves.

Real truth however is something that can not be changed. 
It is up to you to choose your own path and to believe whatever you want. You must realize though that their is only 1 truth about how we got here on this planet earth.

Personally I believe that the truth is in the bible. That truth was not prescribed to me. Actually it has taken me a long time to be able to feel doubtless about my belief in the bible. I prescribed that truth for myself by doing a great deal of studying into the subject. I could have spent all my time looking into other things and then I would probably still feel pretty lost with my beliefs. I looked into the bible and studied with Jehovah's Witnesses because each little bit of information I got from them was all good and was truthful. So I kept studying and kept searching until eventually my mind was made set in my belief that the truth lies in the bible. The truth that is now mine I believe is THE real truth about our world and our existence. I am doubtless about this because of the many years of studying that I have done.

So I agree Truth can not be forced upon anyone but I do also believe that the real truth about this universe if right in front of everyone and it is very easy to understand. It is up to each individual to look into things for themselves though. You can make up your own personal beliefs or you can study the bible or you can study the Qur'an or the Torah or evolution or whatever you want. In the end the truth that you believe in will be most dependant upon the choices that you make in life and upon what you choose to believe in.

The real truth remains unchanged though. No matter what people believe. The truth is the truth. Even if the truth was Chaos theory then there is still only one truth. One past set of events that we have come from. One true reality that we are living in. It means everything to find out what that truth is.

Please make the right choice Angel_Ariel and continue searching for your whole life if you must, so that you one day will be doubtless about what the real truth is. There is nothing more important then the truth.


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## Rozanne

Thankyou for your kindness.


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## LOSTONE

No problem.

If you ever want to talk in private about anything that I have posted here, then feel free to send me an email.


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## Guest

Deleted...whatever!!!!!!!!


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## LOSTONE

pa?gan

noun (plural pa?gans)
Definition:

1. an offensive term that deliberately insults somebody who does not acknowledge the God of the Bible, Torah, or Koran

2. an offensive term that deliberately insults somebody's nonbelief in religion, way of life, or degree of knowledge

3. polytheist or pantheist: a follower of an ancient polytheistic or pantheistic religion

If your faith is in the bible as being the inspired word of God then the word pagan would be used to describe any teaching other then biblical teachings. If your belief is in the Torah or Koran then it would be used toward any teachings that are not from the Torah or Koran.

To say that the bible has paganism in it is to say that the bible in itself is pagan. That would mean that your beliefs from my point of view are pagan and against the bible.

What you apply the word pagan to is a matter of perspective.

For true Christians the word pagan is applied toward any religious teaching or tradition that does not come directly from the bible.

And what is this teaching from the bible.

That the name of *Jehovah* be declared throughout all the earth and his name alone be put on high!

*Ps 83:18 
That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,
You alone are the Most High over all the earth.
*

*De 6:5
And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force. *

*De 10:17
For Jehovah YOUR God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the God great, mighty and fear-inspiring, who treats none with partiality nor accepts a bribe*

P*s 3:6-8
6 I shall not be afraid of ten thousands of people
Who have set themselves in array against me round about.

7 Do arise, O Jehovah! Save me, O my God!
For you will have to strike all my enemies on the jaw.
The teeth of wicked ones you will have to break.

8 Salvation belongs to Jehovah.
Your blessing is upon your people.

Ps 22:27,28
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn back to Jehovah.
And all the families of the nations will bow down before you.

28 For the kingship belongs to Jehovah,
And he is dominating the nations.

Ps 34:7-11
7 The angel of Jehovah is camping all around those fearing him,
And he rescues them.

8 Taste and see that Jehovah is good, O YOU people;
Happy is the able-bodied man that takes refuge in him.

9 Fear Jehovah, YOU holy ones of his,
For there is no lack to those fearing him.

10 The maned young lions themselves have had little on hand and gone hungry;
But as for those seeking Jehovah, they will not lack anything good.

11 Come, YOU sons, listen to me;
The fear of Jehovah is what I shall teach YOU.

Ps 34:15-16
15 The eyes of Jehovah are toward the righteous ones,
And his ears are toward their cry for help.

16 The face of Jehovah is against those doing what is bad,
To cut off the mention of them from the very earth.

Pr 21:29-31
29 A wicked man has put on a bold face, but the upright is the one that will firmly establish his ways.

30 There is no wisdom, nor any discernment, nor any counsel in opposition to Jehovah.

31 The horse is something prepared for the day of battle, but salvation belongs to Jehovah.

Mt 4:10
Then Jesus said to him: ?Go away, Satan! For it is written, ?It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.??

Ro 15:11
And again: ?Praise Jehovah, all YOU nations, and let all the peoples praise him.*

*Habakkuk 2:14
For the earth will be filled with the knowing of the glory of Jehovah as the waters themselves cover over [the] sea.*

*Re 19:6
And I heard what was as a voice of a great crowd and as a sound of many waters and as a sound of heavy thunders. They said: ?Praise Jah, YOU people, because Jehovah our God, the Almighty, has begun to rule as king.*

*Isaiah 43:9-12
9 Let the nations all be collected together at one place, and let national groups be gathered together. Who is there among them that can tell this? Or can they cause us to hear even the first things? Let them furnish their witnesses, that they may be declared righteous, or let them hear and say, ?It is the truth!??

10 ?YOU are my witnesses,? is the utterance of Jehovah, ?even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. 11 I?I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.?

12 ?I myself have told forth and have saved and have caused [it] to be heard, when there was among YOU no strange [god]. So YOU are my witnesses,? is the utterance of Jehovah, ?and I am God.*

*The bible declares the sovereignty and righteousness of Jehovah God above all other things. There is no teaching of the bible that goes against this. Therefore for all true Christians the bible is truth!*


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## Guest

Deleted..whatever!!!!!!!


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## LOSTONE

> Thats the only thing i dont like about christianity it preaches acceptance but it doesnt accept other religions


The bible does not teach acceptance.

It teaches mercy.

There is a big difference in mercy and acceptance.

Many Christians are not true Christians and this is why the bibles reputation has been smeared.

True Christians follow what the bible teaches.

The bible teaches that God will not tolerate false worship for very long.

It does not teach acceptance. It teaches love and mercy.

Some false Christian religions are teaching acceptance and at the same time they teach that it is OK to goto war and kill fellow false Christians of the same religion.

This is a total contradiction to what the bible teaches.

The bible's teaching again is not one of acceptance. 
It is a teaching of love and mercy.

Acceptance would be equal to unrighteousness and lawlessness.

Jehovah God can not tolerate and accept lawlessness. 
That is why Jesus said that his people are no part of this world, and that his Kingdom is no part of this world.

Once Jehovah's Kingdom is established upon this earth then there will no longer be any confusion about anything. No other worship besides the worship of Jehovah God will be accepted on this earth. And lawlessness will be a thing of the past.

The truth that God gave us in the bible is perfect.

It is the reasonings, understandings and actions of humans that has confused the bibles message.

There are people that are living their lives in accord with bible teachings though. Just as the bible predicted, there are people living on earth today that are preaching the truth about Jehovah God to the most distant parts of the earth.

So the purpose of the bible has already been fulfilled regardless of all the false teachings in this world.


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## CECIL

LOSTONE said:


> There are people that are living their lives in accord with bible teachings though. Just as the bible predicted, there are people living on earth today that are preaching the truth about Jehovah God to the most distant parts of the earth.


For your sake I really hope you are following Leviticus to the letter. Interacted with any menstruating females lately? See you in hell :roll: Or perhaps you choose not to follow the old testament and only the new? Or just pick and choose which pieces of the bible to follow and which not to? :roll:

By the way, Spirit is right - there's a whole lot of symbolism and imagery in the Bible that was STOLEN right from "Pagan" religions. And "pagan" as spirit said is only a term for older spiritual practices like Wicca, Shamanism, Druidism etc. Incidentally all practices that teach empowerment of the self and interacting directly with the source of life, rather than worshipping an external saviour figure and only interacting with God through middle men (i.e. priests).

There's so many examples of this they are too many to list. A quick search on google for example turned up quite a few pages.

However, one big one is the Holy Grail, which was a symbol stolen straight from pagan religions in which it was generally accepted to be the womb or feminine aspect. i.e. Source of life.


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## LOSTONE

Cecil the Holy Grail is not spoken about at all in the bible.

Their is no paganism in the bible.

Their is paganism in false religious teaching about the bible.

The bible itself is clean. The truth in the bible existed before any other religion. It originated with God.

The covenant that God made with Israel served a purpose. That covenant was broken by the Israelites. Now their is a new covenant.

This was all predicted while the first covenant was still being set up, so in my mind it only proves God's power.

The Law for the Hebrews served a purpose along with the covenant. That was abolished and pointless after the death of Jesus Christ.

You may want to make a note of the fact that the very first prophecy in the bible is actually about Jesus Christ.

*Ge 3:15
And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.?*

After that prophecy there were hundreds of others wrote down that predicted almost every event of Jesus life. With his ransom payment for our sins there is no longer any use for a law. The law we have now is very simple. It is based upon love.

*John 3:16
?For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.*

Without the death of Jesus Christ, none of us would have any chance at life.

It was Jehovah's abounding loving kindness towards us that has allowed us to keep living.

It is not pleasing to God to have to destroy wicked people. His desire is for sinners to turn back to him and gain everlasting life. This is why he provided his son's death for us.

*Ezekiel 33:10,11
10 ?Now as regards you, O son of man, say to the house of Israel, ?Thus YOU people have said: ?Because our revolts and our sins are upon us and in them we are rotting away, how, then, shall we keep living??? 11 Say to them, ??As I am alive,? is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ?I take delight, not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living. Turn back, turn back from YOUR bad ways, for why is it that YOU should die, O house of Israel??? *


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## CECIL

Sorry, can't be fucked. You're entitled to your beliefs and I am mine.

It would be awesome if you could lighten up on quoting the bible in your posts though, but I can't stop you.


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## LOSTONE

> It would be awesome if you could lighten up on quoting the bible in your posts though


Why?

I have nothing to offer from myself.

Jehovah God is the one teaching us the way that we should be walking in life.

It is in his word the bible where we will find answers for ourselves.

There is no other source of hope. I have found none.


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## CECIL

LOSTONE said:


> I have nothing to offer from myself.


This is what bothers me more than anything else. But again, to each their own.


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## LOSTONE

> This is what bothers me more than anything else.


I am not God.

The idea that humans are God's is not going to save anyone from death.

I know that the bible is the word of God from my personal study of the bible.

Since I am aware that the bible is the word of God, why would I refrain from quoting from the bible? The bible is what God has provided for us so that we could get to know him and understand what his expectations are for us.

My own ideas of how to serve God would not be right if it were not for the bible.

We were not created and put on this earth so that we could tell God what to do. Humans were created out of love. God created us so that we could enjoy life. This is not possible unless we listen to God.

What I have to say about God is not from me but it is from God. Jehovah God has instructed me about who he is and about what we humans should be doing. I did not think up this God Jehovah myself. Jehovah is the one who instructed me. This instruction came from the bible.

If anyone else wants to know the truth about Jehovah God then I would advise studying the bible with all seriousness. What I know about Jehovah God is from the bible. It is from God's own words and the inspired words of his servants. The best words I can think of to use to help others understand the truth are the words that God has spoken himself in the bible.


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## Pablo

LOSTONE said:


> I know that the bible is the word of God from my personal study of the bible.


You dont know that for sure, it is just a belief like any other, it is part of your belief system which keeps your ego in its cosy comfortable place.

God = Love
Jehova Preaching = Aggression 
Aggression = love :? I dont think so


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## LOSTONE

> You dont know that for sure, it is just a belief like any other, it is part of your belief system which keeps your ego in its cosy comfortable place.


I do know for sure.



> God = Love
> Jehova Preaching = Aggression
> Aggression = love Confused I dont think so


God's servants strive to display the exact same personality that Jesus displayed. Jesus was very active in the preaching work. I don't know many people who would consider Jesus to be an aggressive man.

Whatever you want to believe is up to you though.

I personally am doing everything possible to become more like Jesus because I just want to be a good person. I know that the path I am walking down is the right one. I do not even care that much about any reward. I simply want to do what is right.

The rest of humanity can do whatever they like. 
I am going to be following Jesus and serving Jehovah God.
I do not like evil and I do not want to be evil. 
I would rather love my enemies then to feel hate toward anyone for anything.

That is my choice and I believe I am making the right one.

What I have found in the bible is by far better then anything else I can find on this earth. Even if God did not exist. If everyone on earth were to follow the bibles teachings then all of our major problems would be solved. Peace on earth would be a reality.

The bible says to love even your enemies. And to pray for those persecuting you. I do not know of a teaching that is better then the teaching to display love toward all humans, friend or foe.

The only reason the bible's reputation has been made to look bad is because of the bad actions of men. Many false religions have done many bad things in the name of God and in the name of the bible.

The teachings of the bible are perfect though. Those teachings are just not being followed by most people, including most religions that claim to be following bible teachings.

For example *Isaiah 2:4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.*

There is only one group of people that I know of that has achieved that. Those are the Jehovah's Witnesses. I know of no other worldwide religion or organization that lives up to that scripture. Jehovah's Witnesses would die before they would join the side of any human battle or war. For Jehovah's Witnesses serving and obeying Jehovah God is more important then anything else. If this world were filled with Jehovah's Witnesses then their would be no more war and no more crime, no more jails and no more prisons, there would be worldwide peace.

This is why I wish to become a Jehovah's Witness myself. I know in my heart that if there is any God that exists who is good and does judge with righteousness then the very first people he will be saving from destruction if he saves anyone will be the Jehovah's Witnesses. Personally I can not find more peaceful or loving people anywhere that I have been on this earth. And these people do not simply dwell in some isolated area but they exist all over the world. They are everywhere. Jehovah's Witnesses are united globally, they form a worldwide organization of peace and love. There is no hate, prejudice or haughtiness amongst these people that I know about.

The bibles prophecies about God's people in the last days have been fulfilled by the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Mt 24:14
Isaiah 2:2-4
Jeremiah 31:33:34

Those and many others have been fulfilled by Jehovah's Witnesses.

*Acts 15:14
Sym?e?on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 
*

*Jehovah* is God's name.

*Psalms 83:18
That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,
You alone are the Most High over all the earth.*

Jehovah's Witnesses are Jehovah's people, they are the people obeying the voice of Jehovah their God.

*Isaiah 43:10,11
10 ?YOU are my witnesses,? is the utterance of Jehovah, ?even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. 11 I?I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.? *

And Jehovah's Witnesses are Witnessing to the most distant parts of the earth, just as the bible said they would.

*Acts 1:8
but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju?de?a and Sa?mar?i?a and to the most distant part of the earth.?
*

This is the result of Love.
Not aggression.


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## LOSTONE

I do not wish to argue with any other opinions or beliefs.

I am simply stating my beliefs.

My belief is that the bible is the word of God and the only people on earth who are living up to the teaching of the bible are the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I can not say for sure who God will judge with mercy or who he will judge with destruction.

I do believe that the Jehovah's Witnesses are speaking the truth about God though and I believe that they are God's honest and loyal servants.

I can not say the same for any other group of people anywhere.

I suggest anyone who is seeking the truth about God should start their search with the Jehovah's Witnesses. With these people you will find the God of peace.


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## sunyata samsara

Sounds like youre talkin about spiritual materialism. Thats when you use spirituality the same way others use worldly things which is to boost your ego. Some accidentally strengthen their ego through spirituality. I wonder if most do that? and if so you just need to realize it and get past it. Ego is tricky.


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## Pablo

sunyata samsara said:


> Sounds like youre talkin about spiritual materialism. Thats when you use spirituality the same way others use worldly things which is to boost your ego. Some accidentally strengthen their ego through spirituality. I wonder if most do that? and if so you just need to realize it and get past it. Ego is tricky.


I think the majority do that and use spirituality to boost their ego, I think I did that too, my family are very scientific minded and I think I got into this area to be different so there was an area of life I was an authority on within my family and friends. There are so many ego traps to fall into, I see so many people take on eastern religions as a way to boost their identity and to appear wise and mysterious and you see so many people get into new age teachings as a way to show other people that they are a "spiritual" person. In many ways those subtle ego games are more dangerous than obvious ego games as they lead to false pride and a sense of superiority or feeling special.


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