# Kava Kava



## Guest (Jan 2, 2006)

Has anyone in here tried kava kava? I heard its supposed to alleviate anxiety and depression. Im not talking about the low quality kava you get at the health store, i mean the hardcore potent hawaiin shit off the web.


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## ret (Aug 10, 2004)

"The sale of Kava was banned in the UK in 2003 after 70 reports worldwide of suspected adverse reactions. These include four cases of fatal liver toxicity and seven cases in which patients required liver transplants."

I wouldn't touch it.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Sorry to bump this one, but it's just typical of how media hysteria controls virtually every aspect of life.

Kava Kava has been on sale in this country for 10+ years. And we've had 4 s, 4, that might have had something to do with Kava or the persons pre-existing medical condition.

4 people.

4.

Ban it. And peanuts and bees and everything that anyone has ever died of.

:shock:


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2006)

Martinelv said:


> Sorry to bump this one, but it's just typical of how media hysteria controls virtually every aspect of life.
> 
> Kava Kava has been on sale in this country for 10+ years. And we've had 4 s, 4, that might have had something to do with Kava or the persons pre-existing medical condition.
> 
> ...


Hmmm have you gone mad ? :?


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2006)

j_utah said:


> Has anyone in here tried kava kava? I heard its supposed to alleviate anxiety and depression. Im not talking about the low quality kava you get at the health store, i mean the hardcore potent hawaiin silly* off the web.


I've wondered about it, but haven't tried it. Why do you say the health store stuff is low quality? You know something about it? I could try some today, but if it's not worth buying at the health store, then I shouldn't bother.........? (It's early and I'm not articulate)


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## David Kozin (Jan 11, 2005)

Kavalactones, the active principles in kava, actually do have significant psychopharmacological effects. The problem is really mixing traditional western medications with potent botanical medications.

I would suggest finding a good integrative physician that has a background in botanicals and is willing to use these appropriately. However, you are looking for a needle in a haystack.

The warning about using St. Johns Wart with SSRI has been known for sometime and can lead to an extremely horrible experience such as Serotonin Toxicity Syndrome, which is near the top of my list of disorders I do not want to have.

I think the movement towards other medications other than traditional western medicine (also known as pill after pill) is not a bad one, and I think this will create good competition for the western medicine doctors.

Do your research, find a natural physician if you can, and move on from there. I didn't realize it was banned in the UK, which is similar to Tryptophan still being banned in the United States.

As a political aside, I hate to be political, however I am very concerned with the current state of medicine and I believe the general ideology needs to change.


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2006)

NODID said:


> As a political aside, I hate to be political, however I am very concerned with the current state of medicine and I believe the general ideology needs to change.


If we aren't politcal, greed wins. I wish I didn't have to be, but it's a worthy fight.


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## David Kozin (Jan 11, 2005)

I can not tell you how some predatory insurance companies, which offer horrible rates and plans, are now seeking out senior citizens in full 30 minute TV advertisements getting them to sign up.

These groups are seeking the most vulnerable individuals, who because of changes in their govermental healthcare coverage may have lost the ability to obtain life sustaining medications. I know in my city, the Mayor actually announced that individuals who qualify (for example people on life sustaining medications) and who are not able to get their medications because of complications with the new health care system that the city is going to pay for their prescriptions to ensure they do not die because of a change in policy.

Anyone see the "Sam Lesente Show", this faux tv show that happens to feature the VP of Glaxosmithkline (Mr. Lesante's only guest and he is on again this week with the same guest, hmmmm??), and every commercial during this show is Glaxosmithkline defending why medications are so expensive, despite their profit margin exceeding most other industries? It is a fake show, and it is preying on the people who are now on week two of probably not having their medications. I can tell you that this gets under my skin just about more than any other topic.

- David


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2006)

I haven't seen it but I know how you feel. When trickery and greed are so obvious to me and it's so difficult to know how to counter it..........grrrrrrr!

What's wrong with making an honest profit?? Why do they always seem to want to "take over the world"?


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## dalailama15 (Aug 13, 2004)

> I think the movement towards other medications other than traditional western medicine (also known as pill after pill) is not a bad one, and I think this will create good competition for the western medicine doctors


David. While of course you have some real points, I am not sure I am comfortable with this creation of a dichotomy between "traditional Western Medicine," and "botanical" or alternative, or whatever Medicine.

Many critics of traditional medicine--"traditional" being pejorative--don't seem to understand, or even believe in, science: the idea that you need to present evidence to back up claims, and that there are criteria and systems for determining the validity of this evidence, namely, the systems and criteria of the scientific method. There are people in this alternative community who either can not intellectually grasp what the scientific method is, or think of it as some kind of "Western" conspiracy _against_ the truth, against truths which they know, with absolute certainty, exist, but which are somehow inaccessible to the scientific method.

So professional alternative practitioners can manipulate "energy" in the body which has never been demonstrated to exist, and which doesn't even meet the minimum criteria for something to be _called_ energy, that is, to be measurable and to be able to exert force. They can talk to you about your chakras but can point to nothing, except some kind of ancient mystical knowledge, that these things exist at all. And they can prescribe "herbal" or "natural" or "botanical" medicines as somehow superior because they are _not_ part of "traditional western medicine."

It is intellectually sloppy to use something called "traditional western medicine" as a straw man, to set up, in opposition, some other kind of medicine, much of which is just the same old hocus pocus.

I am not accusing David of doing this, am not debating (although am certainly not adverse to this debate) but just making a point.

anyway


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2006)

dalailama15 said:


> > So professional alternative practitioners can manipulate "energy" in the body which has never been demonstrated to exist, and which doesn't even meet the minimum criteria for something to be _called_ energy, that is, to be measurable and to be able to exert force. They can talk to you about your chakras but can point to nothing, except some kind of ancient mystical knowledge, that these things exist at all. And they can prescribe "herbal" or "natural" or "botanical" medicines as somehow superior because they are _not_ part of "traditional western medicine."


Interesting point of view from a guy who calls himself dalailama. But then, I am not a beach, so.......


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## David Kozin (Jan 11, 2005)

I am also not trying to debate, just clarify my statement above:

Obviously, I understand and believe in the scientific method, or I would not be conducting research based on this method. The idea of presenting evidence to back up claims based off of either quantitative data or significant subjective positive results is useful, but contains limitations. The scientific method definitely has a place in medicine, but in the same way the ability to keep an open mind to unusual data, which may lie outside of statistical significance or measurable quantities, may have significance.

There are many examples of the failure of the scientific method, which relies highly on the current level of technology, and where the lack of scientific proof has lead to actions/beliefs which we would now consider ridiculous at this point. For example, at one point we believed that stomach ulcers were purely psychological phenomena, and until recently there was no evidence to suggest otherwise. So, physicians treated these disorders as a psychological problem. However, now we know that H. Pylori is the bacteria that causes stomach ulcers, and that this bacterium can be transmitted transmitted as a disease (which includes kissing and one could define stomach ulcers as a sexually transmitte disease). Additionally, allopathic medicine has practiced somewhat dubious actions in the past. For example., doctors casually removing tonsils and the appendix from individuals for minor infections simply because they "apparently" had no purpose (I remember a doctor even telling me, "well, while we take care of this surgery we mind as well get remove your tonsils because they may cause problems in the future); this information was based off of current scientific data. However, we now learn tha these organs are important and play roles in the immune and other systems, and the removal of these organs are no longer taken lightly. This is a relatively recent development.

The trend towards alternative medicine, which I also agree is a poor term considering "alternative" is a word with a specific definition, is growing and the insurance companies are catching on (my insurance pays for 90 visits to alternative medicine visits per year), which must be produce a financial benefit for them. A visit to a chiropractor, who is able to reduce back pain is much cheaper than a regimen of opiates or cox-2 inhibitors. There is a reason insurance companies are turning towards preventative medicine. Perhaps it is sloppy to chunk together Western Medicine as a whole, because this medicine is very effective in certain instances. I am obviously familiar with the scientific method, and there was once a time the scientific method via observation of the environment would have suggested the Earth was a flat body and the sun orbited our planet or that the existance of radio waves would have bordered on the idea of magic ("transmitting voice and images in the air? You are surely mad!"). However, it took time to be able to discover differently, as our instruments to measure became more accurate. Additionally, medicine that is based off of current data produced from concrete analysis is not always the most productive way to go about making decisions, as we have learned from history: What we believe to be true at one time, is proven wrong with the development of new equipment and/or theories (relativity and quantum mechanics being significant examples of such theoretical influences with very practical applications).

Science is a great tool, and obviously I apply it on a daily basis, and employ statistical analysis to develop ideas and support ideas about the environment around us. However, I have spoken to doctors, worked in medical offices, and also communicated with individuals in our current medical system, who despite their Nobel Prize or position as leaders in research at Harvard, who turn towards preventative forms of alternative medicine and have challenged ideas of current medical theory because they realize that it is ignorant to believe that we have "finally got it".

Each type of medicinal system is useful in its own way. I would not want to go in for acupuncture if I had a chronic lung infection, but instead would rely on the antibiotics of the allopathic medicine. However, many individuals do not realize how many of these medications come from the alkaloids of plants, and these plants and their alkaloids have been used for centuries as treatments for ailments by "alternative" medicine "doctors" because the affect these plants have on the body has been observed over the centuries.

I do not mean to suggest that one if better than the other, but competition for medicine is going to bring about positive changes in our health care system. Health Care is a business, and if people are finding that they are unsatisfied with being placed on a pill for every little problem they have (people taking paxil to deal with the death of a family member, etc), many of these pills which do carry significant side effects; these patients are going to turn elsewhere. I have watched medical practices that treat patients as if they were nothing but a disease attached to a body, and the goal being to treat the disease and end therapy at this time. It is time that we begin looking at humans and their health prior to the point of disease, and look at the entire overall health of the person to develop subtle changes in diet, activity, and lifestyle choices.

Just as it has been measured via scientific method that watching movies of the holocaust reduces measurable immune factors in the body and individuals watching movies with laughter and happy images increases these immune factors, we must look at the power of belief and the mind-body connection.

Just my thoughts, I try to keep an open mind to all types of medicine. Each has a place, and when someone discounts one over another they are closing an avenue of healing.

All my best,

David


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## Andy (Aug 9, 2005)

I agree with martinelv on this one, the ban in the UK was completely unjustified. I believe that it was briefly banned in some other European countries, but the bans were subsequently lifted after no evidence could be found linking Kava Kava directly to liver disease.


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## ret (Aug 10, 2004)

The simple fact is that that it might be the cause. I'm sure the last thing dpers need is a broken liver, that's suicide time. If it had been anywhere other this dp board, I wouldn't have bothered.


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## 1A (Aug 12, 2004)

I had a potent Kava powder I used for about a year, in 2000. I am here to tell about it. LOL. It wasn't all that bad and very relaxing. I would mix in about a half of a cup, with some water and heat it up in the microwave. It contained a high (very high) level of Kavalactones.

I bought it online for maybe $40 or so. It lasted a whole year -- and I drank it 2-3 times almost every day.

Lava Kava was where I got it, although it looks like they no longer sell it.

http://www.lavakava.com/


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2006)

1A said:


> I had a potent Kava powder I used for about a year, in 2000. I am here to tell about it. LOL. It wasn't all that bad and very relaxing. I would mix in about a half of a cup, with some water and heat it up in the microwave. It contained a high (very high) level of Kavalactones.
> 
> I bought it online for maybe $40 or so. It lasted a whole year -- and I drank it 2-3 times almost every day.
> 
> ...


Do you miss it? Did it have any side effects?


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## 1A (Aug 12, 2004)

beachgirl said:


> Do you miss it? Did it have any side effects?


I kind of miss it, yeah. I'm sure it can be purchased elsewhere -- just don't know if it would be as good as the first time around. If I find a good link, I'll post it here.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2006)

Just a side. If you can't get or don't want to take Kava Kava, another alternative might be to take the B3 Vitamin in the form of "niacinamide", which binds to benzodiazepine receptor sites similar to the way knlonopin, etc. do. Granted you will not get the exact same effect as Kava Kava, but you will still hopefully get some rellief of anxiety while not having to take perscription benzodiazepines (if you are opposed to them).

Just a thought.

Also, to David: Tryptophan is no longer banned in the US. It is not widely available in the US, but it is now legal to purchase it for human consumption without a perscription. It seems like only smaller companies are selling it though. Maybe by banned you meant hard to obtain, but I just wanted to clarify. If you want some, you can look here, perfectly legal and all, and not for "veterinary use only": http://www.iherb.com/tryptophan2.html

Eric


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## 1A (Aug 12, 2004)

eric said:


> Just a side. If you can't get or don't want to take Kava Kava, another alternative might be to take the B3 Vitamin in the form of "niacinamide", which binds to benzodiazepine receptor sites similar to the way knlonopin, etc. do. Granted you will not get the exact same effect as Kava Kava, but you will still hopefully get some rellief of anxiety while not having to take perscription benzodiazepines (if you are opposed to them).
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> ...


I've found that a boatload of Kava Kava is required in order to have similar effects as Klonopin. Although that might just be me.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2006)

eric said:


> Just a side. If you can't get or don't want to take Kava Kava, another alternative might be to take the B3 Vitamin in the form of "niacinamide", which binds to benzodiazepine receptor sites similar to the way knlonopin, etc. do. Granted you will not get the exact same effect as Kava Kava, but you will still hopefully get some rellief of anxiety while not having to take perscription benzodiazepines (if you are opposed to them).
> 
> Eric


I'm going to try that asap and to get a peter levine book. I hate anxiety.


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## David Kozin (Jan 11, 2005)

The lock down of L-Try ended sometime not that long ago I see, but you are right: It is hard to find as a supplement. I was still thinking it was near impossible to find minus asking pharmacists for it.

The same thing with Ephedrine: Although the Ephedrine salt is banned, there are loopholes such as trade name "Bronkaid", which is available over the counter. This medication managed to bypass this ban because it was "FDA Approved" prior to the ban. So, essentially you can get Ephedrine in a high potency 25 mg pill capsule (with some guafensisen in the pill as well I think) at your local super market.

Thanks!

-David


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2006)

It is quite hard to find, and it is now much pricier than it was before the ban I understand. At least it is obtainable, though.

Interesting about the ephedra. I have no desire to take it as it would shoot my anxiety through the roof, but still glad to know that people who need it can obtain it.

Thanks for the info,
Eric


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

A long time ago J_UTAH, a long time ago. But thanks for asking.


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## Lilymoonchild (Jun 18, 2005)

Why are we worried about 70 deaths nation wide from kava? Like martin said, more people have died from peanuts and bees. And SSRIs, for that matter. There are ads on television now that say that Zyprexa contributes to diabetes in some patients, so now some lawyer is trying to make a buck off of that. But what about all the people Zyprexa has helped? Really, I don't know why we have to blow everything so far out of proportion.


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## Lilymoonchild (Jun 18, 2005)

Worldwide, even.


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## Lilymoonchild (Jun 18, 2005)

And cigarettes, for that matter. 70 people die from Kava, so let's go ahead and pull that, but let's let millions die from smoking. What the hell is wrong with the world?!?
All right, I'm done now.


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2006)

Lilymoonchild said:


> What the hell is wrong with the world?!?


I ask myself that question everyday.


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## Methusala (Dec 22, 2005)

I think what's wrong with the world is that Humans evolved on earth without a manual for handling the massive mental and emotional capabilities of their large brains, and how the quality of the child care environment effects that. Human history seems to be in large part the struggle to handle those factors. However were closer now to stable and reliable approaches to doing that than ever before.

M


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## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

Lilymoonchild said:


> But what about all the people Zyprexa has helped? Really, I don't know why we have to blow everything so far out of proportion.


that's like saying why blow the whole dangers of smoking marijuana (or LSD) so out of proportion when so many people are perfectly fine and even BENEFIT from it for years; hard one to swollow for the ones who ended up with dp from it I would think.

Kava and tryptophan get banned because they're relatively cheap, no big pharma or tobacco giant was making big profits off this stuff. As a matter of fact there's a close connection between the ban of tryptophan and the release of Prozac to the market, coincidence? But then tryptophan is soon sold again at a MUCH higher price than before and it suddenly isn't so "dangerous" any more. what's wrong with the world is $$$.


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2006)

[quote="rula"
Kava and tryptophan get banned because they're relatively cheap, no big pharma or tobacco giant was making big profits off this stuff. As a matter of fact there's a close connection between the ban of tryptophan and the release of Prozac to the market, coincidence? But then tryptophan is soon sold again at a MUCH higher price than before and it suddenly isn't so "dangerous" any more. what's wrong with the world is $$$.[/quote]

It's true. Selfishness and greed seem to be the driving forces behind most of what we blindly accept in this culture - maybe all cultures. When someone lacks these characteristics we think he's weird.


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2006)

Mixed messages go around make up your own mind


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