# Ever notice?



## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

I, like many other people on this board, have certain people whom, if I see posts they made or replies they made, will immediately jump to that post.

It made me think of something.

Yes, of course, they ARE the ones whose posts are the most comforting, advice giving, and eye opening to ME (we all have different "favorites", it's not an across the board thing I really don't think)

And that all makes perfect sense.

But there's another part. Not only are they so damn interesting and readable and captivating because they discuss ways I can better my mental health, but they are also from minds whom I feel I'm on a level playing field with and can learn from.

It's not just about the DP, I realized.

Sometimes when we want certain people to help us with DP it could also be a crying out for a similar mind, an intellectual challenge, or a friend who does more than drinks beer while simultaneously scratching his/her crotch. It could be a crying out for something INTERESTING in this world.

When people love us it's all good and great, but we also need people we can RELATE to and people who CHALLENGE us.

So the next time you make a post requesting someone's advice, think about that... (I know I will!) Think that maybe there is more than one thing you're desiring from this person, that maybe in your circles of searching for a cure all you really needed was intelligent conversation with people who have BRAINS! (And that's hard to find in college/young adult years... when you're looking for it only in your peers, because so many people are intent on partying...I wonder if that has a vague relation to the fact that nervous breakdowns are NOTORIOUS for hitting in college, when you're no longer driven by so many rules and regulations that you acutally have time to be more creative and you will actually need more intellect in your life)

Notice on here, we also argue on the effects of medication, the presence or absence of God, homosexuality, drug use, philosophy, etc. We get as passionate and involved in those things as we do in the main message board, sometimes more.

I have a brother who was very hyperactive when he was young, to the point that I would beat him up relentlessly...or mom would scream or hit him. But I dont know if he got hugged a whole lot. Maybe the rush and thrill of the painful strike was the hug substitute...just a want to be touched and paid attention to. Maybe the want and search for certain persons on this board regarding DP issues is also a want to be touched and loved and given attention by them.


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

or, from that last part...a sentence I remember in Janine's book (mind if I borrow it?) "Sometimes a cigar is just wanting to talk to someone"


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2005)

I just love you, lol...I truly do, Melissa. I'd FORGOTTEN my own line till you quoted me, lol...

Here's another (much more poignant quote, and unfortunately I do not know the author), but your post sure hit home for me.

"Lonliness is a longing for KIND, not company."

Another thought along your same lines is that some say what really cures in analysis is the "love" shared by the duo. It's not sexual love (well, it might be in the patient's transference, grin...and I sure was guilty)...but the state of being SEEN in all our ugliness, in all our humanness, and eventually to realize that despite it all (or because of it) we are loved.

It's not the masterful technique employed by well-trained anaysts...but some say, and they just might be right, that all that technique is just something for the two people to DO together, while the affection and the truth is formed.
Love,
J


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

"It's not sexual love (well, it might be in the patient's transference, grin...and I sure was guilty)..."

Why did you make the transference sexual? Was it to do with your past or with the attraction to the guy or lack of father....?


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## jft (Jan 10, 2005)

You are definitely right person3 in your post. I see that in me as well as many on this baord.
But I guess that leaves me out with you, because as I was reading your post I was drinking a beer and scratching my crotch.
jft


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2005)

yes i do notice, i think its just cause we have the same problem and experience the same thing


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## gem (Aug 10, 2004)

As we all walk through this life we will meet people, different kinds of people but one thing for certain those that we chose to spend time with usually have something in common with ourselves. We have all sat in a room with many people at one time or another and before the night is through we will probably end up talking with someone who shares alot of our interests, our likes and dislikes, we will go home knowing we have likely found a new friend. When we become ill one of the first things that I believe we do is isolate ourselves because maybe we do not want others to know we are ill. It is hard to be around those who truly do not understand what we live. Like going out and meeting people just to feel like you belong is part of life so I believe at soome point the pain and lonliness is to hard to cope with alone so we reach out to where we know we may be accepted and that is a place where others share in what we suffer. They know and we know that the pain we live hurts and so we as human beings reach for a place that will have others who know the isolation also hurts. This brings us to a place like this where we know that we will most likely find a friend who understands and cares.

gem.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> but the state of being SEEN in all our ugliness, in all our humanness, and eventually to realize that despite it all (or because of it) we are loved.


Janine. You know I love and respect you. Yes ? Ok, that's good. So I'll begin.

It may be due to my lack of intelligence that I fail to grasp to concept of what that sentence is saying, but please - what does it actually mean ? In reality ? Love by whom ? Everyone is loved ? Despite our uglyness ? I need some cohesiveness dammit !  I'm sorry - it reads like the cult-ish advice you read from a 101 (and I'm also sorry to say, almost exclusively American) self-help/improve yourself/love yourself in 20 days) books. In all our humanness ? What do you mean ? Is this word play with the (undoubtably honourable) intention of acknowledging our ultimate futility ? Does reporting an emotion or action really explain it ?

But anyway, what do I know. But I do agree it's nice to get your teeth into a good debate on this forum. The vast majority of people here are highly witty, with a good jar of intelligence. Problem is, nobody every seems to agree with me when I say anything. In which case, I'm going to cry and scream until someones says "Yes Martin, you're right after all. Please accept these gold ingots as a token of our apologies. May we lick your feet ?"

Incidently:



> Why did you make the transference sexual? Was it to do with your past or with the attraction to the guy or lack of father....?


Does the school of psychoanalysis still believe that homosexuality is some form of extreme narcasism ? Or something to do with the symbolism of an erect penis and the fear of castration ?

Yes, I know I'm spoiling for a fight. 8)


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

For what it's worth Martin, I don't always agree with EVERYthing you say but you put forward good arguments and I like to read them and quite often understand where you're coming from. I think I like the very dry British humour in there somewhere.

There is a lot of new age bullshit popular psychology books out there and I was the biggest cynic in the world but now I need a trip to Ikea to purchase a whole new shelving system to accomodate my new library's worth of psych literature. Self help stuff aswell as my degree coursework but there's a general theme in there somewhere, just different ways of getting the message across to different audiences.

I always read posts by certain people, and if it isn't the name that attracts me, then it might be the subject of the post, but invariably it's the former not the latter so that would indicate that relationship rather than content is the healing power. For myself anyhow. Having lacked empathy we crave it as adults and it creates a better sense of self. Having someone simply understand you is very validating to the soul. There, I could write a cheesy self help book myself.

As for narcissism, it is sooooooo complicated that I am merely scratching the surface with regards to understanding that one, but coincidentally just read something in a book that refers to what you were talking about. It describes the 'Phallic-Narcissistic character' whose narcissism 'consists of an inflation of and preoccupation with their sexual image' and 'it underlines the intimate connection between narcissism and sexuality - specifically, sexuality in terms of erective potency' (Alexander Lowen)

Make of that what you will. It's all I can offer I'm afraid as I don't understand it for love nor money. I am a bit of a narcissist but I don't have a penis, so your guess is a good as mine... :twisted:


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Too kind.

I wouldn't dare go to IKEA anymore. They had a sale at one of the branches in London recently, and there was a mass riot in the queue. The moral of this story ? Shopping for Swedish goods is bad for your health.

Although I agree with most of what Janine says about DR/DP, and especially her worthy advice on recovery, I am extremely skeptical (if not dismissive) regarding the more, er, speculative aspects of psychoanalysis. It says a lot to me that psychoanalysis is very much regarded as a parlour game in this country, and indeed most of europe, where the, how can I put it, psuedo-self-health-cult-for-profit is somewhat less fervent. The problems I have with it, and there are several of them, is the concentration of symbology and the interpretation of events. And therein lies the crux of the matter, I think,...interpretation. I don't believe anyone is qualified to 'interpret' psychological aspects of your personality except yourself. Uncovering and dealing with problems is an entirely different matter of course, which I wholeheartedly encourage. The books on 'dream intepretation' (yes, I know - a fringe enthusiasm) are nothing more than laughable. I think people forget that although they may point to similarities of symbolism across the world, they also forget that the human brain is magnificently adept at noticing similarities and coincidences when there really are none. In which case, providing a 'cure' or suggestions using interpretion in this sense, does more (and I believe has been) harm than good, in some cases. Sometimes, some things are buried for a reason.

In this regard I'm not indulging my usual 'anti-everything' rant. Indeed, I was an enthusiastic pupil of Freudian ideas, and slaved over Alder, Jung and all the rest as a youth. Even now, I believe the basic ideas of ego, unconscious and the like are generally correct, but it smells to me that the more elaborate aspects of psychoanalysis are little more than jumping on the bandwagon to sell a few more books and open a few more clinics. Like my ideas on religion, homeopathy etc, my view as evolved (as I see it) over time, and I can't see the truth in it.

I'm always accused of being close-minded regarding such matters, but I assure you I'm not as bigoted as I may sound. I do actually think about these things, and come to a conclusion which may or may not be correct. I'm not going to apologise for that.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. To quote Richard Dawkins: "Sure, let's keep an open mind. But not such an open mind that our brains fall out".


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

<Duplicate - deleted.>


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2005)

Damn. ITCHING to fight, but way too busy at work - please check back later this evening. Blood shall be spilled.

:lol: :twisted: 
ALL IN FUN!!!!

Love you, too....oh, evil M,
J


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2005)

To MARTIN:

(talk about anti-climax) .....you know what? I've decided you're right, lol...NOT about analysis in general, but about the L word. I detest if it sounded "New Agey" and lovey-dovey - I think in my own little fantasy world (where I spend the vast majority of my time, lol) I was thinking of it as a kind of "mutual respect/loving/appreication for the humanity, etc.." I don't know. LOL

Or I was just thinking that the object of MY desire, said transference-recipient analyst, did somehow make me realize, over much time, many years, that he cared about me. NOT in some lovey-happy-peace symbol way....but in some form that mattered to me personally.

So, retraction of all above LOVE talk in previous posts.

Martin is correct today.
Please note the date and mark your calendars accordingly.
Soon he will say something inaccurate and I will be right back at his throat (lol)

J


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

Martin-
According to Kinsey's work, very few people are absolutely straight...that everyone has had some kind of attraction to the same sex, be it in thought or action or fleeting wonder...of course that doesn't make you not-straight, but what I'm saying is that I don't think homosexuality is the symptom of a certain type of upbringing (in most cases). It's kind of a part of life that both terrifies and intrigues people.

Besides, the time when freud wrote was when homosexuality was still believed to be a mental disorder. It was only later this last century that it wasn't regarded so.


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## jft (Jan 10, 2005)

Person. Have to respond to your comment on Kinsey. It is outside of this thread. But you used him as a source. Is he not now in serious question in his research? I read him and believed, but after learning his techniques I am wondering if he is not to be doubted, big time. In fact he may have dumped a huge blanket of BS on the whole world. Him, Timothy Leary, Huxley, Hefner, and whoever else espoused philosophical views without spun out ramifications I feel have a alot to answer for. It was not all love and beads for everyone. Many of us are experiencing the aftermath. I am on of them. 
jft


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

wow, really? I didn't know that...

what kind of aftermath??!!


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## jft (Jan 10, 2005)

Person. Sarcastic inquiry? 
I hope not.

What I am saying is that many thousands of people like myself that have bought into the developing thoughts of people of influence that later are found out to be less than accurate or even charlatans have a claim to be pissed. Kinsey as we speak is being discredited. His research was flawed, but that will be debated. People promoting drug use (Leary, Huxely etc.) had their say and left a wake of thousands of teenagers with depersonalization, drug incuded psychosis and HPPD. Rock musicians like Jefferson Airplane that advocated overthrowning the money grubbing establishment were later found in lawsuits over who gets the most money out of their albums. In the mean time thousands did lsd in their name.

All I saying is that people with "say" need to be reponsible, and Kinsey apparantly may not have been one of them.
jft


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

jft said:


> People promoting drug use (Leary, Huxely etc.) had their say and left a wake of thousands of teenagers with depersonalization, drug incuded psychosis and HPPD. --- All I saying is that people with "say" need to be reponsible


I think if someone believes drugs are the way to enhanced awareness and enlightenment, she/he is allowed to say it. It is up to those people who decide to believe her/him, not the one who preach. Everyone is responsible of her/himself, and if someone is that stupid to try LSD just bc someone else says it is tasty, so be it. Even a teenager is responsible of her/himself in the end IMO, though I think upbringing can be a very big factor preventing stupid behaviour.

For example I wasn't drawn to rec drugs just bc someone said to me they are wonderful, but rather bc I always have been interested in altered states of consciousness (e.g. lucid dreams, later shamanism) and found out that MDMA can be a great help in processing traumatic memories (it is experimentally used in the treatment of PTSD). For what I have gathered from my experiments with MDMA, I could say the trauma thing is totally true in my case.

However - if someone else goes and eats Ecstasy just bc of my post here and messes her/his mental health up with the drug, I don't see myself responsible for that. Even a stupid deed is a personal choice IMO.


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## lone wolf (Aug 10, 2004)

Oh, and before this thread goes totally off-topic I wanna say that what you said, person3, especially in the opening post of this thread - I can relate 100 %. I come to this forum mainly bc I enjoy the smart discussion here, including your posts.  I wish I could have real life friends too with whom I could share thoughts in the same way I can here. However, I mostly talk about school and other everyday stuff with them in a cafe, and though also that kind of communication is nice, I would feel myself a bit lonely if I hadn't the chance to come here in this board.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Person3, I agree entirely.

I've dabbled in the bi-scene when I've been on drugs, and I enjoyed it and have no shame whatsoever. Why should I ? Saying that, I class myself as virtually 100% hetrosexual, as I don't find (on a day to day, none drug induced basis) men sexually attractive in the slightest. I find some men 'interesting', but that's about it. Most of the time the thought of getting down dirty with a hairy smelly bloke about as appealling as sticking my head in a bucket of fish on a hot day. But then, I never say never again. Why miss out ?


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

Thank you for the interesting conversation guys 

(this is not a closure to it, keep it going!)


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## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

Martinelv said:


> I've dabbled in the bi-scene when I've been on drugs, and I enjoyed it and have no shame whatsoever. Why should I ? Saying that, I class myself as virtually 100% hetrosexual, as I don't find (on a day to day, none drug induced basis) men sexually attractive in the slightest.


i've witnessed many men (and women) turn temporarily bi on the drug scene. it's not a coincidence that women come of out of the experience more openly bi, because it's more socially acceptable, and in the male dominated world even desirable. men however are more threatened by the idea and continue to deny that what felt good, and you *enjoyed* under the influence will feel good when sober as well. only if you'd let your brain relax. lol. imho, drugs only bring out what's already inside, they don't create new feelings.

-ru


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## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

jft said:


> People promoting drug use (Leary, Huxely etc.) had their say and left a wake of thousands of teenagers with depersonalization, drug incuded psychosis and HPPD.


jft, i just bought a Ram Daas book right with a Janine Baker book. I watched a documentary on his life, his stroke, and how he's coping with the new "reincarnation" of himself. I felt like a lot of it was speaking to my new DP'ed self. Ram Daas, Leary and Huxley's writings have influenced my life for the better and i'm not sure what parts of it you refer to as "innacurate". I totally agree with Ninnu, you should experiment with psychedelics when you're mentally prepared, for a specific purpose, and under supervision of someone who can calm your fears when the trip goes bad. it's fear that leaves ppl DP'ed, not the drugs.

hey i like the idea of religion a lot, but i dislike most religious people. you can't blame the genuine attempt of prophets at making the world better on the people who don't get it, and make a mess of something beautiful.

-rula


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

I'm not sure I agree that you 'should' experiment as some people obviously do have reactions to drugs that are not just psychologically induced. Having said that, I'm not anti drugs at all, and in some ways jealous of my more 'sane' friends who can experiment with harder drugs without any repercussions. I steered clear of the harder stuff in my teens as on some level I knew it would send my brain into orbit. But never say never. Just not a great idea for me right now. Plus, if you have an addictive personality like me then its probably not the best idea to 'try' anything with even a sliver of potential addiction. It took me a few months to get off a nasal spray for godsake.
Just out of interest, what 'specific purpose' do you mean? 
I know nothing about Leary or Huxley and am curious.


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## [rula] (Jan 16, 2005)

g-funk said:


> I'm not sure I agree that you 'should' experiment as some people obviously do have reactions to drugs that are not just psychologically induced.


me neither, i used the word "should" in a very specific context, only when you're prepared and have a purpose for doing it, other than partying that is (not that i'm not guilty of that, too.)



> Just out of interest, what 'specific purpose' do you mean?
> I know nothing about Leary or Huxley and am curious.


well, Ninnu for example uses ecstacy to treat a traumatic experience. many use it to learn how to better connect with others, to open up. Leary and Huxley's spiritual/enlightenment journey through pychedelics is old, and rooted in Hindu and buddhist philosophy. problem is that most people skip the important stuff (a la the fast food society that we live in) skip the reading of the teachings, the actual preparation and learning process, and jump straight to swollowing the drugs, mostly to have a good time. that's not what Leary was about.

i just think it's counterproductive to healing to keep blaming the drugs for our problems when the real problem is our own psyche, our own unprepardness to handle the experience. we freak out and have bad trips, that's where DP comes from.

-ru


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## g-funk (Aug 20, 2004)

don't get me wrong - i totally agree about blaming drugs for our symtpoms. it's a way of not having to look at ourselves and sort out that which needs sorting. i miss not having a joint - didn't bring on dp that much at all but im asthmatic :roll:


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## jft (Jan 10, 2005)

I think this is a great website. It has potential to help thousands.
I am not one to ever want to mix it up with anybody when the theme is support. The board here I assume is about dp/dr, not about politics, gender issues or religion. I am not religious.

I was not going to post again here in this thread for I felt I was up against a stacked deck, but after coming home from a meeting of drug casulities like myself tonight I feel a need to.

I did my first hit of acid after two friends for two hours espoused Huxley and Leary to me. As Janine examples in her book, I was not one of those who had any idea I was predisposed to dp/dr. I also did not know that one does NOT need to have ANY predispositon to get HPPD visuals. But it all happened. The HPPD waned, but the dp/dr has gone on for 31 years, 31 years. I went from a 4.0 in high school to flunking out. I was to be doctor. My life was ruined. A couple of you posted libertarian thoughts of "ya, but it was my choice and no one else is responsible". Do children have the wherewithal to make a decision such as this?
My first post addressed Kinsey, but he was not my theme. The theme is that I really feel we all have a responsibilty for what we say. Others just may take us seriously. Leary and Huxey said many wonderful and great things, but they also gave reason and offered license for thousands of unsuspecting innocents to use hallucinogens and destroy their lives. People that are in a position to influence better have it right, or in my mind they are irresponsible, especially when it comes to adversely affecting young, tender, and very vulnerable minds. This includes those that make claims based on bad research. Or those that jsut want to make a buck.

Ideaology is a wonderful thing, until it hits reality square in the face. That is when truth is spun out and understood.
And if you think I am preaching, I am not. I am only a 51 year old man that has suffered tremendously and would give anything to never had heard of Timothy Leary when I was a young teen just trying embrace and understand life. 
jft


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2005)

This website is great, and I hae learned a lot, especially how much or how little I really have in common with many people on this site.

But I wouldn't say it ever helped me. But then again, "God helps those that help themselves." And thus far, I'm fumbling about.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2005)

Privateer I agree, im the same way

I rarely even post anymore on DP/DR/DEPRESSION/ANXIETY related issues because I might " offend" someone lol. And actually I don't spend nearly as much time on this website as I used to. Do I feel any better???? Nope, im still a depressed, anxious, weird mess, who battles through each day. I think if I owned a gun or there was a gun in this house, I might not be alive right now, no joke

But ive also come to realize, I AM MY OWN WORST ENEMY and if I do want to get better, i can really only find the strength within myself and better myself. No Pill or repetative advice from anyone is gonna cure me. Although i do like my current therapist and he gives alot of good advice.

Im trying to find myself before its too late

This site is helpful to alot of beginners but I dunno how beneficial it is to people who have had emotional/mental issues for a decent amount of time, and shit im only 19!!!!!!!!!!!

i need some guidance


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2005)

It's true man, I still get depressed and I still feel as isolated as I ever did as long as I've been going here. But my moods seem to change a lot, though gradually. There's times when I feel anxious, others when I feel fine. Right now I feel stressed and depressed. But I'm definitely my own worst enemy. Let me get to the bottom of this...


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