# Did anyone....?



## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

....leap with joy, run around the room screaming with delight, punch the air in triumph and relief, then sit down and have a nice cup of tea, when they heard the news that the Canadian authorities went to court to have some newborn children taken away from their Jeeeeeeeeeehova Witness-type parents, after they refused them a blood transfusion!

These people should be charged with manslaughter!!!!! Dear god, am I the only one who thinks this? Madness, madness. They were prepared to kill their *own children* because of their nauseating beliefs!!!! Words from a book! A BOOK! PLEASE, tell me I'm not the only one!!! People like this, and their bollock shrivellingly pathetic 'beliefs' should be locked up. Forever! I DON'T CARE WHAT THEY BELIEVE! THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO INFLICT THEIR MADNESS ON CHILDREN, THEIR OWN CHILDREN!!!!! Murderers, pure and simple.

I tell you, if I had the time and money, I would devote the rest of what remains of my life to stamping out all the terrible harm that religion causes. I want to scream at the madness of it all.

And while I'm having this rant, does anyone else think that the Pope should be charged with genocide? You know, for sending out missionaries to Africa, brainwashing them into catholocism (and destroying their indigenous beliefs), and then killing them by denying them the use of contraceptives? Anyone?


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2007)

*Runs to the nearest hiding place*


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

delete


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2007)

"Each to their own"...


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## Fant?me (Feb 2, 2007)

Martinelv said:


> ....leap with joy, run around the room screaming with delight, punch the air in triumph and relief, then sit down and have a nice cup of tea, when they heard the news that the Canadian authorities went to court to have some newborn children taken away from their Jeeeeeeeeeehova Witness-type parents, after they refused them a blood transfusion!


This is actually an example of extremism. Just like Jihad and evangelism. I'm a devout atheist and am infuriated constantly by the practices of religious zealots but most people believe the standard Jehovah's Witness is by definition a zealot (relatively). With the no medical externalities, blood transfusions (they believe that blood is entirely sacred) and some crazy beliefs about the afterlife, but don't all religions? This is an extreme case, and I'm good personal friends with a number of those door knocking bastards and they're no stranger or radical than your casual Christian who sleeps in church.



miss_starling said:


> To be fair, what is so great about the indiginous beliefs of people in Africa?
> Why do you draw a distinction between animalism (primitive religion) and organised religion?


animalism? could there be a more bigoted term for Africa's various religions? You're likening them to the lions on the Savannah. Animalism implies a complete non-understanding of morality. How can religion not contain morality, whether it contradicts your own beliefs or not? Also, religion is by definition organized. Tribal, or privative, "animalistic" or however you want to put it still maintains ritual, spirituality, and congregation. You write as if they act purely on bloodlust, hunger, sex, etc and have no morality, and are essentially sub-human. Even the animal kingdom has morality for chrissakes with animal families and kinship and most recognizably in the primate family.



> That missionaries have gone over there to tell people to be nice to each other isn't a bad thing.


They aren't acting on the behalf of solving the AIDS crisis, otherwise they wouldn't be imposing the Christian belief that there shouldn't be any sex until marriage. Its an act of pure conversion and typical religious short-sightedness and without an ounce of logic.



> In some places it is dog eat dog.


i guess blanketing a village in carpet bombs is more civilized than the atrocities of Sudan or Rwanda. We don't have to wipe the blood from our own faces and just things blow up on television.



> But you can't blame the problems in Africa on the Pope I don't think.


well, hes not personally responsible. he didn't go swinging in the jungle sticking it in chimps but the hole in his brain in the shape of the Holy Bible might have affected his judgment on the matter.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Turns out the correct word is ANIMISM, sorry for any offense caused.

Definition Animism: the doctrine that all natural objects and the universe itself have souls; "animism is common among primitive peoples" 
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

It doesn't imply blood-thirstiness or vampirism.

I used the wrong word, and that was because I had never used the word before but had seen it in a classification system of world religions in a history book.


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## Fant?me (Feb 2, 2007)

Totally forgiven. I apologize as well because i've been watching far too many Richard Dawkins documentaries.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

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## Guest (Feb 24, 2007)

Spiffing. Jolly good show old bean!


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

We are just human beings. We all have our crutches.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2007)

miss_starling said:


> I'm mentally hyperactive, that's why I am posting so much.


*Makes his 1600th post*... Chase me! Chase me!   :wink:


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

I guess in the end I believe in a secular state and the individual's right to a life of moral integrity (providing it doesn't harm people).


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2007)

I read what you wrote only to be unable to recall any of it... I'm gonna beat this damn dyslexia, it's making me invisable...


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## Fant?me (Feb 2, 2007)

miss_starling said:


> I think atheism, of the kind that seeks to destroy other peoples' faith, can be bigotted. It's not like atheism has any proof. You can't prove there is not God, just like you can't prove there is one.


I don't believe there isn't a god, and it was unfair of you to be so assuming. I never said there was no god. I just find it highly unlikely and almost infinitely impossible to determine. I'm just doing the math. If its the same likewise, where its impossible to prove that god does not exist it doesn't reach the same conclusion. This is because all "fact" and the faith surrounding it is fiction. God has never once shown himself to humankind. There is no real evidence for god. He is imaginary and it just flat out does not make sense. Reason is god's greatest enemy.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

I don't think it's a form of extremism at all. It just comes to light when these sort of things go on in 'civilised' western countries - where there is ready access to media and information. Religious atrocities occour on a daily basis - from female castration, wanton homophobia (although I admit this is not the exclusive domain of the religious, but it IS within their dogma), etc, etc.

My real point goes back to the blood transfusion thing. I mean, how can any parent refuse life saving treatment of their child? Imgaine their state of mind. What goes through their heads? So religiously infused that they are prepared, de-faco, to murder their own children? I can't imagine anything more sickening, and the full force of the law should be brought to bare upon these ba***rds. All because of a few lines in an ancient old book. My mind simply comprehend the total insanity of it. It's a testament to the power of the religious virus, it's virility, that it can make people do this kind of thing, actually believing that they are doing the right thing. Astounding. It makes me wonder, with all the warnings on cigarette packets, warning of it's addictive and potential health risks, why there aren't the same warnings on the bible or the koran? And considering these books are 75% concerned with death, blood-letting, infanticide, genocide, homophobia, rape, sexism, shouldn't they at least have an 18 certificate on them? Oh, I forget, all the nasty stuff should be taken in historical context, and thus ignored. Indeed. :shock:

With regards to Africa, I was talking about Christian and Catholic missionaries, with their mind-shattering piety and ignorance of indigenous beliefs - good or bad, and with one rattle of the cross and some tales of fire and brimstone, then sweep eons of civilisation aside. With the promise of some money, a drink of water, and of course, the curse of HIV. HOW DARE THEY!!!! It's digusting that they were, and still are allowed to do this. Freedom of religion? Sure. But what about freedom FROM religion. Ooooh no....we must keep quiet. If we don't, we are at risk of being jailed for religious hatred (even if it's just criticism, atheists don't tend to murder doctors at abortionist clinics or blow themselves up in the middle of a busy markets or give a rat's arse what people get up into the bedroom).

The only 'proof' for the existance of God is........wait for it........we can't prove that he doesn't exist. Cast iron proof that! Just like you can't prove there isn't an invisible leprechaun called Derek who sits on my shoulder. All other proof for the 'divine' (what an oxymoron!) is either mythomania, downright fraud, or a myriad of obvious, verifiable, psychological explainations. However some of the more clever religio try to baffle us with seemingly sensible arguments - creationism (utter, utter rubbish), personal revelation (how utterly trustworthy!), or, when all else fails - some strange semi-mystical blending of their particular flavour of religion with scientific discoveries. I try not to laugh.

Stop the world. I want to get off. Until we get complete church and state seperation, then I'm going to go and live on the moon, and set up my own atheistic colony, where I shall rule with tyrannical liberalism. And bi-monthly orgies. Compolsory.

[/quote]distinction between primitive and modern religions


> Ha! Are you saying that African religions, or lets say - the religious beliefs of the Aborigines are more primitive than Christianity or Islam? Why? In my own experience, 'Western' religion is far more savage than these so-called 'primitive' religions. I'd like you to explain what religions you think are primitive, and why. I know you don't mean it, but it does whiff of western, colonialist bigotry. I thought that had died out in the dark ages. "Those crazy, flesh eating dark-skinned people, howling at the moon."


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2007)




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## Guest (Feb 24, 2007)

Martinelv said:


> then I'm going to go and live on the moon.












1 acre of the Moon 4 ?20 quid! wonder if we leave it till later they will put a buy one get one free offer on?


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

delete


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

edit


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2007)

miss_starling said:


> I don't even know why I am arguing the point.












"HUMM"... *Thinks bout it for a while*... hummm...

I can't "really" put my index finger on it... but" does it have anything to do with your being "Female"... :wink:


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

*My frontal lobes must be damaged*


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Aaahheeem......(throat clearing)......



> some strange semi-mystical blending of their particular flavour of religion with scientific discoveries.


Well, I certainly hope that wasnt directed at me....

First of all, I thought it was a brilliant point by Miss Starling. Why are you giving the benefit of the doubt to native religions? Female mutilations are not in any way a brand of any known religion BUT animism and the indigenous beleifs you are canonizing. Cannibalism, an ancient custom to absorb the energy of one's enemies, is still found througout Africa as a common way to defile people during thier genocides. Its roots are far, far away from Western Europe. The use of child soldiers is neither indigenous nor imported by missionaries. I suspect, nay, expect, that it stems from an amoral view of life with hatred, the almighty dollar, and power being their God. It is probably a fruit of unchecked capitalism, Colonialism, and not surprisingly, communism, which has had a foothold on the contintent since the USSR began exerting power there in the 80s. Check one for atheism. The ritual "cleansing" of women by their village witchdoctor after the death of a husband, which consists of them having sex with him, is not found in any Western or Eastern religion. It IS found in the indigenous beleifs of African villages. There are no condoms allowed in this "ritual". Prostitution, unfaithful husbands, the objectification of women, and indigenous sexual beleifs go the furthest in Africa in perpetuating AIDS. Condoms arent used in these rituals, by the husbands with concubines, or the men who visit prostitutes because they are considered unmanly and because prostitution is a crime of "passion" with little fore or afterthought.

The Catholic population of Africa is highest in Nigeria. Its AIDS rate is 5.4 percent. I've known MANY, many people from Nigeria. The Catholics there have many children, and intact families. They do NOT use condoms. But their rate of infection is low. Although the country is basically divided between a Muslim half and a Christian half, and only 20 percent is Catholic (at least that's the figure in my head from my last almanc read), their infection rate is much lower than any country in Southern Africa, and yet they have the highest population. And yet they are at the greatest risk, according to those espousing the anti-condom conspiracy. Why then arent these Catholic family men catching AIDS with thier unprotected privates? Because they beleive in something called _monogamy_, which is not something an indigenous animist will stress.

I dont really have a huge issue with condoms, and honestly, I'm not sure where I stand with them. I like them better than birth control, but I think using them is still lacking a certain fullness and authenticity of expression, and openness to life. That being said, you dont need to use them even if you are married to a person with HIV. The use of the anti-viral Tamiflu on a daily basis is shown to help prevent HIV infection, while still allowing a couple to conceive if they wish. But that's beside the point. Its just such a vast over-simplification of the whole problem in Africa to blame genocide on an anti-condom policy for a religion nobody belongs to in Africa, that it almost sounds like a conspiracy theory.

As for Jehovah's witnesses' beleifs that blood transfusions are contraindicated by the Old Testament, well, I agree.

Just kidding.

Yes, its an overly literalistic view of the Bible. I dont use the Bible as a surrogate for God. I dont use any Church Council, Pope, priest, friend, or writing as a surrogate. Its a lack of faith that He exists that tells us we need to. I cast myself on him in faith, in deep silent prayer, and that is how I know who I am, Who He is, what He is like, what Truth is. This is what I measure all Councils, religions, Popes, and edicts against. The miracle of the Bible is not that God speaks through it, but that God actually CAN speak through that mess of human error we call the Old Testament. Its not what Evangelicals or Councils teach - it is not His "Word". Some of it is. Some of it claims to be, and isnt. But that isnt why it was written - this isnt why the Jews passed it down through all of their captivities, at all cost. It is a _salvation history_. It shows how in spite of all of the crap they caused, how God still pulled through for the Israelites. One of the Maccabees brothers gives a speech about this in Maccabees. He gives this speech about how God saved them before, and will save them again, as a force one-fourth the size of their Greek oppressors, attempts to free Jerusalem in 400 BC. He gave the rousing speech, and they won. The Old Testament shows how other people have had one-on-one relationships with God. The Psalms by King David express what it is like well. Religion, books, literalism....they are all devices. All human expressions. They may contain God, they may not. God's religion is Truth, and wherever it is, there He is too. And the greatest Truth is that He Loves, and that we are infinitely loveable.

Is it loving to refuse one's child a blood transfusion? No. "When your child asks for a loaf of bread, do you hand him a stone or a snake?" (paraphrase of Christ in the New testament). But these people are living under a lie, the lie that this is what God wants. They are not evil. They are deceived. Just as the women in Africa live under a lie, the lie that after thier husband dies, they must be "cleansed". Just as athiests live under a lie, the lie that they are "alone". Just as child soldiers live under a lie, that thier commanders care about them. Just as Europeans live under a lie, that wealth is what makes us happy. Just as the Catholic Church lives under a lie, that rules make us Godly. There is no freedom except freedom in truth.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> Its a lack of faith that He exists that tells us we need to


What?



> cast myself on him in faith, in deep silent prayer, and that is how I know who I am, Who He is, what He is like, what Truth is.


What?



> The miracle of the Bible is not that God speaks through it, but that God actually CAN speak through that mess of human error we call the Old Testament


 :shock:

Anyway, in summary Home's, Catholocism (spelling) is right, and everyfing else is wrong, yeah? Am I reading you right? If so, why don't you just say so? You don't have to justify your beliefs to me, because I already know they are, well, crackers. But it doesn't make me love you any less.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Darren said:


> miss_starling said:
> 
> 
> > I'm mentally hyperactive, that's why I am posting so much.
> ...


Bloody nora, if that was on 24th Feb, you've made 300 posts in the space of a week. Can that be right?

Rozanne


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Martinelv said:


> > Its a lack of faith that He exists that tells us we need to
> 
> 
> What?
> ...


Laugh out loud. I hope you didn't have you mouth full when you were saying that:

Wghhat?

Wghhat?

In fact I think you have a point about the I'm right you are wrong mentality.

When I experience that I feel like such a narcissist.

I have been thinking a lot about the role of narcissism in religion of late.

I mean, it is quite narcissistic to need the constant attention of a God isn't it?

These are just tit-bits of anti-religious argument, thoughts that intrigue.


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## Epiphany (Apr 28, 2006)

You must have to be quite detached to be willing to allow your child to die knowing that there is a simple commonplace life saving procedure that would restore them to normal health.

Having just become a Mum myself I know that I would do anything....absolutely ANYTHING to save my childs life and I would have no hesitation in going against my own morals/beliefs in order to do so...no matter who/what external pressures were against me. Would I take another persons life to save my daughters? You betcha. Would I give my own? In a heartbeat. I can't fathom these peoples mindset.

I know it is something entirely different but I heard the other day a mother killed her baby by putting her in an oven. I feel chilled to the core when I even allow this scenario to enter my head. I have a high tolerance to blood, guts and gore and have quite a macabre imagination but harming your own child I find incredibly painful to deal with. Post-natal psychosis etc...sure I can understand, but it rips my heart out to think of the pain the child must have to endure as well as the pain the mother might have felt during a moment of clarity upon realising what she had done. Tears me apart. Maybe I'm still hormonal. Damn it...I'm gonna cry. Have to go now and give my baby girl a hug...think happy thoughts.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Liked your post Ephiphany, and wish I had a baby girl to hug.

Like to mention the "new religion" Scientology is just as flakey. I've become anti-psychiatry myself for a number of reasons (mainly I distrust a lot of psychiatrists for their ignorance), but Tom Cruise is the epitome of ignorance -- he doesn't believe mental illness needs any medical treatment.

The thing is, people "need" religion. What is Scientology? It is brand new! It isn't from "an old book." When was L. Ron Hubbard (a crazy man) alive? That "religion" is only what, 50 years old?

I just think it's part of human nature. As time has gone by the pendulum swings back and forth. I believe 100% in the separation of Church and State. But as noted, Muslim is truly a complete integration of politics and religion, moreso than Catholicism.

Thing is, I don't have a lot of faith in the goodness of humanity. I think this is why there IS religion. It is a way to maintain social order. But when it gets out of hand -- as when it is corrupted by extremes -- it has lost it's positive purposes.

I agree though, this denying of medical treatment to children in this manner is barbaric.

Mercy, mercy me.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2007)

Ohhh the blissful joy of ?Drum & Bass? tunes? check out my ?magic fingers? :wink:



Miss_Starling said:


> Bloody nora, if that was on 24th Feb, you've made 300 posts in the space of a week. Can that be right?
> 
> Rozanne


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## invisible.ink (Feb 2, 2007)

Epiphany said:


> You must have to be quite detached to be willing to allow your child to die knowing that there is a simple commonplace life saving procedure that would restore them to normal health.
> 
> Having just become a Mum myself I know that I would do anything....absolutely ANYTHING to save my childs life and I would have no hesitation in going against my own morals/beliefs in order to do so...no matter who/what external pressures were against me. Would I take another persons life to save my daughters? You betcha. Would I give my own? In a heartbeat. I can't fathom these peoples mindset.
> 
> I know it is something entirely different but I heard the other day a mother killed her baby by putting her in an oven. I feel chilled to the core when I even allow this scenario to enter my head. I have a high tolerance to blood, guts and gore and have quite a macabre imagination but harming your own child I find incredibly painful to deal with. Post-natal psychosis etc...sure I can understand, but it rips my heart out to think of the pain the child must have to endure as well as the pain the mother might have felt during a moment of clarity upon realising what she had done. Tears me apart. Maybe I'm still hormonal. Damn it...I'm gonna cry. Have to go now and give my baby girl a hug...think happy thoughts.


I feel ya on that one. I'd do ANYTHING for my son and I would never deny him medical treatment if he needed it, be it against my religious beliefs or not.
She put her baby in an oven? How terrible. I can't imagine.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

I am quite interested in the purpose of religion, and I sort of disagree with the point you make Dreamer about religion being there to serve as social control. I don't believe it is possible to enforce religion to quite this degree. The fact remains that many people are religious in their hearts, it is something they are inclined towards in an internal way.

First of all it seems obvious that there is a need for parental supplementation: to have the perfect image of the father always there for you, and the mother also in some respects (but not so much practised unfortunately).

As well as that I believe religion serves the purpose of self-actualisation. Jonesky wrote about soulbonding, an exercise where the person meditates so much on another person or character that they seem to become part of them in some way.

Aside from the question of whether God exists or not - because I see that as a seperate issue when it comes to logical debate - this process does seem to describe meditation on God. The immersion of the soul in a Divine Being who is perfectly whole in Love and in character. If my memory serves me correct, Christians do believe that a connection with God perfects them, with the filling in being done by God and by aligning their own aspirations with those of the Father.

I am yet to decide on a religious system because of the psychological view-point I hold. Not to say that God doesn't exist. But the practise of religion does seem to say an awful lot about the human psyche. The question of whether a God actually exists is more of an objective one. Although even Christians say that the only way you can truel know God is through your heart, ie through personal experience.

Even if things in the Bible actually happened, for instance Jesus going into the desert and being tempted by the devil....I can't help but see that as a story of psychological meaning. That to me could mean integration of the Shadow as described by Jung.

I don't say these things to offend anyone or dispute the value of religion, but really to say that if I were to be a Christian, I would have to be satisfied that it didn't contradict my fundamental belief that religion says more than anything a lot about human needs....Even if one of those needs is to be able to love freely.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2007)




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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Miss Starling said:


> I am quite interested in the purpose of religion, and I sort of disagree with the point you make Dreamer about religion being there to serve as social control. I don't believe it is possible to enforce religion to quite this degree. The fact remains that many people are religious in their hearts, it is something they are inclined towards in an internal way.


I'm being very simplistic in my theory on this -- I don't just mean social control. I've said many times I'm an agnostic. I was raised by an atheist , attended a non-denominational sp? private school. Only attended Church or Synagogue (happily) with friends. Attended an Arts Camp which was had more of a Christian bent.

I've studied The Bible as history in college. I've studied religions in college and out of curiosity my whole life. I find much of it to be a universal mythology. The stories that appear over and over again in different religions are oddly similar, which means they sprang from similar fears in humans (I believe we are very similar in spite of many cultural differences) and similar needs and hopes, etc. The need for an explanation of "Why are we here?" "Why do bad things happen?" "Why do good things happen, and perhaps we should perform X ritual to make the good thing happen again." "Why do we die?" "Why are we here?" These are all powerful questions.

Whether there is a higher power or not people will always ask those questions.

I have no problem with religion, or rather, personal beliefs, faith, that sustains any individual. I dislike the "this is the only religion" concept, and the corruption that occurs in EVERY religion that exists. I say, whatever floats one's boat is fine with me. But in this example, where a belief endagers a child -- well, that is a problem.

My sense is, say when I see a friend's family I know very well who have been raised Episcopalian but don't go on preaching about God to anyone, that they are one of the healthiest families I know. I see many healthy families wherein faith is an integral part, and these families are so different from my extremely dysfunctional family. Muslim, Jewish, etc.

I also see families raised with religion that are severely dysfunctional.

I see ritual as extremely important in family and community stability. Church/Synagogue/Mosque, etc. is a community unifier. It just is. It is support in a community. I'm starting to talk anthropology here, but it does serve a purpose.

I don't know where "sprituality" comes from. I could argue the biological/adaptive nature of it, but I can also say ... "What do I know?" ... I am not sure ... though sadly, I feel less and less that there is even a "higher power." That doesn't mean that one can't make a decision to live a decent life.

Growing up with a religion is different from growing up with faith, and those two things can be good or bad. Religion can be constructive or destructive to an individual or society. So can Faith. These people who won't let their child get medical help have Faith that God will decide what is to happen -- I think that is a tragic mistake, they don't.

I don't like to take either extreme, but it's issues like this that make me say, "Oh for crying out loud."

ACH, I'm rambling, but with the bottom line here, I am fascinated by psychology, neurology, mythology, anthropology, sociology, etc. All of those things point to various reasons for the presense of religion and spirituality in our lives.

I think it can be valuable ... I don't care to bash any religion, and yet I also see Martin's point in that it can be extremely devisive, harmful, destructive. That to me is the mystery. But we know that good things in this world can become corrupted. "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions" etc.

Hmmm, I don't think anyone has the whole answer to anything. So I take a look around and use what makes sense to me. I guess I wish I had some clear spiritual faith sometimes, but I don't. Hence I don't find "the greatest comfort" that some seem to have.

Yes, I seem to tend towards biological reductionism. But if I see the need for spirituality as some sort of adaptive survival mechanism that works, I can't argue with it. But it doesn't always work. As usual, I'm amazed that human beings get along as well as they do, that the brain functions as well as it does.

And again, I don't think there is necessarily innate goodness in people, those with or without a specific religion or those with or without faith.

I don't know, as the years go by, I find life full of more mysteries than when I started out. I also see a crueler world today, but then every generation says that.

So confusing. But I'm not saying religion/faith/spiritualtiy serve one specific purpose. It serves many wherever it came from.

D


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Dreamer said:


> I see ritual as extremely important in family and community stability. Church/Synagogue/Mosque, etc. is a community unifier. It just is. It is support in a community. I'm starting to talk anthropology here, but it does serve a purpose.
> D


Social control is a human need, in a way. It is the need for security, law and order.

That's important for the individual, the family and society as a whole.

Sorry, I misinterpreted your original point.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2007)

What dates to be the oldest religion known to man (Idealism), and before this religion was creative, what was the cognitive behaviour of man? Was it religion which gave birth to Intelligence as we know it now a days. Even if we disbelieve religion it is still constructed within our human minds to avoid insanity

?Matter is not real? ? Warning, Link may worsen DR/DP?

http://www.parvez-video.com/idealism_theory.asp


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

> Quote:
> Its a lack of faith that He exists that tells us we need to
> 
> What?
> ...


Sigh.

Sigh.

Sigh. Do you really read my posts? I have a sense that you skim them, ignore the large basis of the argument/statistics, and continue with "status quo" comments that dont really challenge me or you. Do you really have any answer for the low HIV rate of Nigeria, if it is Catholicism that causes it? I dont really care about that, which is why I dont really press you about the stats too often. The problem you have with religion isnt based on stats - its based on anger, bias, and extreme prejudice. And that doesnt actually offend me. I feel like I actually understand it. For my part, I dont even beleive Catholicism is the best way to Christ (like I used to), or the only. Now please, pleeeaaassse, read this post through, beginning to end.

When I said "I dont really have a huge issue with condoms, and honestly, I'm not sure where I stand with them. I like them better than birth control, but I think using them is still lacking a certain fullness and authenticity of expression, and openness to life." Does that sound like the Catholic Church's stance? When I say"I dont use any Church Council, Pope, priest, friend, or writing as a surrogate" does it sound like I am telling you to rely on the Catholic Church for truth? To explain your "What?" question above, I will repeat myself and explain:

" I dont use the Bible as a surrogate for God. I dont use any Church Council, Pope, priest, friend, or writing as a surrogate. Its a lack of faith that He exists that tells us we need to. I cast myself on him in faith, in deep silent prayer, and that is how I know who I am, Who He is, what He is like, what Truth is. This is what I measure all Councils, religions, Popes, and edicts against."

I am _agreeing_ with you, oh argumentative one. I do NOT beleive in biblical literalism, period. I _especially_ do not beleive in Biblical literalism that leads to the death of innocents like young Jehovah's Witnesses. If _that_ is crackers, if that is less sane, then by George, lets all be a little crazier. I go onto explain that I dont fall into literalism, because I'm not bound to a book (the Bible) or a man (Pope, priest or friend) to tell me what God is like. When I say "It is a lack of faith that He exists that tells us we need [to rely on them]", I mean simply that if you dont really beleive what you say (that He exists), believe that he lives within us, made us in his image, cares about all of us equally, and is deeply concerned with our happiness and our daily sorrows, the most intimated details of our lives, then you wont pray to Him. You wont have enough faith to even try. And if you try, you wont expect to "hear" from Him deep in the intuition of your heart. Instead, you'll chain yourself to a book, or a man, or an institution, and eventually you'll stop seeing God as He IS, and see Him how men see Him, how men think He is. You'll beleive them when they say to go to war for Him, that he is pro-violence rather than pro-life. You'll beleive them when they say he wants you to strap dynamite onto your chest and blow yourself up in an internet cafe in Jerusalem. And you'll beleive them when they say that He wont allow your child to get a blood transfusion to save his little life.

But IF you beleive, truly beleive, that He IS all of these things, if you at least hope that He is, then you may actually learn to listen to Him. To pray to Him. To "cast yourself on Him, in deep, silent prayer" and learn more about yourself, your calling in life, God's goodness, His Love, and the freedom in him. St. Paul at one point said that "nothing is forbidden me". And St. Therese of Lisieux said that "to the pure of heart, there is no sin". There is freedom of heart, expression, independence, and even freedom from doing wrong, in God.

So in response to:


> Anyway, in summary Home's, Catholocism (spelling) is right, and everyfing else is wrong, yeah? Am I reading you right?


The answer is No, you aren't.

But that's alright - It doesnt make me love you any less. :wink:

Or God.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2007)

*Homeskooled:* What drives you to challenge Martin, a dieing man? why not respect his wishes and views, ( huh? I?ve just had a d?j? vu which didn?t make sense, what triggered it?)? Martine may perceive life totally differently to all whom takes life for granted? I don?t know? forget what I have said, because I?ve no right to make ?any? judgements between you two, and even if I had been following both your moves It wouldn?t be enough to judge. I just see so much stress between you two as you question each other?s beliefs?


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Truth is such a rare thing, it is delighted to tell it.

So spoke Emily Dickinson, who no doubt was feeling akin to how I feel when I speak my heart. More importantly, though, I'm not seeking personal gain from these threads. In the end, I agree with Felix Adler's addage that "the truth which has made us free will in the end make us also glad." Here's both to Martin's gladness and to his health!

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Homeskooled said:


> Truth is such a rare thing, it is delighted to tell it.


I raise my glass to that.

And Martin's health of course, in Darren's words "Bless yaa".


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2007)

Truth based on facts or assumptions?? Now I admit, I?m limited to what I know? which is positive as I?ve much to learn... but I do not quote from others, I have faith in myself and what I believe.

Can you quote anything you have written which is false? or gave you a sense of doubt please?


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2007)

I beg your pardon, I read what I wrote and it?s aggressive? I didn?t intend it to be aggressive, yet I will not edit it as it ?feels? correct.


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## invisible.ink (Feb 2, 2007)

Homeskooled said:


> I am _agreeing_ with you, oh argumentative one. I do NOT beleive in biblical literalism, period. I _especially_ do not beleive in Biblical literalism that leads to the death of innocents like young Jehovah's Witnesses. If _that_ is crackers, if that is less sane, then by George, lets all be a little crazier. I go onto explain that I dont fall into literalism, because I'm not bound to a book (the Bible) or a man (Pope, priest or friend) to tell me what God is like. When I say "It is a lack of faith that He exists that tells us we need [to rely on them]", I mean simply that if you dont really beleive what you say (that He exists), believe that he lives within us, made us in his image, cares about all of us equally, and is deeply concerned with our happiness and our daily sorrows, the most intimated details of our lives, then you wont pray to Him. You wont have enough faith to even try. And if you try, you wont expect to "hear" from Him deep in the intuition of your heart. Instead, you'll chain yourself to a book, or a man, or an institution, and eventually you'll stop seeing God as He IS, and see Him how men see Him, how men think He is. You'll beleive them when they say to go to war for Him, that he is pro-violence rather than pro-life. You'll beleive them when they say he wants you to strap dynamite onto your chest and blow yourself up in an internet cafe in Jerusalem. And you'll beleive them when they say that He wont allow your child to get a blood transfusion to save his little life.
> 
> But IF you beleive, truly beleive, that He IS all of these things, if you at least hope that He is, then you may actually learn to listen to Him. To pray to Him. To "cast yourself on Him, in deep, silent prayer" and learn more about yourself, your calling in life, God's goodness, His Love, and the freedom in him. St. Paul at one point said that "nothing is forbidden me". And St. Therese of Lisieux said that "to the pure of heart, there is no sin". There is freedom of heart, expression, independence, and even freedom from doing wrong, in God.


This makes a whole lot of sense to me. Struck a cord somewhere inside me.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Miss_Starling said:


> Dreamer said:
> 
> 
> > I see ritual as extremely important in family and community stability. Church/Synagogue/Mosque, etc. is a community unifier. It just is. It is support in a community. I'm starting to talk anthropology here, but it does serve a purpose.
> ...


No worries,
I was writing too fast and being rather vague.

I isolate myself so much with this blasted DP, anxiety, yada, yada. I have thought time and again, I should go to Synagogue. My husband (separated from me) is Jewish (and well-versed in Judaism and other religions), but his family weren't practising Jews at all. I've learned a lot about it from actually working in a Synagogue as an office manager some years back.

At any rate, I can't connect with Christianity. And yet I respect Homeskooled and others here who do. So I see the Temple as a wonderful place to become involved in community activities through Jewish ritual.

But I can't do it, because behind the ritual, I have no Faith.

I will say what I find irritating about Christianity is the commercialsim. I am curious why most Christians in America (I think we're especially guilty about this) don't stop the insanity about expensive gift-giving at Christmas, and the insantiy of bunnies, eggs, etc. at Easter when that is the most solemn day of Catholicism.

But a person of any religion can be a good upstanding person, and a person of any religion can be a dirty rotten scoundral. Faith, one could say the same about that as well.

I finally learned the difference between ritual and faith/sprituality about 5 years ago. Took me a long time. What makes sense to me as I always say, are the 10 Commandments and a bit of Zen Buddhism thrown in, with respect for other peoples' views. I like the Psalms and sayings in the the OT and NT ... such as "Let he without sin cast the first stone."

At any rate, this is such a difficult topic to discuss on the internet. Homeskooled has some wonderful points, but you have to STUDY what he writes. And I've missed things myself, the real point he's making. I believe Home's religion is indeed based far more on Faith and a personal relationship with his spirituality.

Darren, Homeskooled and Martin are always sparring, and I think they both enjoy it very much. Home isn't attacking a dying man. Martin, damnit, you aren't dying. That I don't believe.

I was surprised in the mall the other day. I was looking for a sweater or something and the young saleswoman and I started chatting about fashion - so new? LOL :roll: -- yes two women, LOL... and she said, "Well, then when I organize my closet, I always put work in one section, casual in another and Church in a third so I don't mix them up."

I just made a mental note. "Church" is a very specific part of her life. A very important part of her life. And I don't have it. In part, I don't have it because I was raised without it, by someone who HATED not just all faith, but all people.

I don't understand why I didn't buy my mother's atheism, but on the other hand can not embrace spirituality.

None of this is simple.
Sigh.
D

I also thought re: what you said Miss Starling, children WANT discipline, and yes, people want and need order in their lives. An external source of ritual can provide that. That's what I meant. So in a sense "God the Father" is father, and sort of like the Cult of the Virgin Mary, Mary is mother. And of course it all seems to start out with "The Earth Mother." Humans need comfort, and I see nothing wrong with that.

I have problems with it when it is insincere in any way. I like what Home says. Also, has anyone seen this gorgeous woman on TV ... probably only in the US ... I think she was married to a guy named Gene Scott. She is a pastor who speaks about a billion languages and studies the Bible in such depth it's stunning. Listening to her one can see the depth and sincerity of her faith. Pastor ..... _____ Scott? Damn. Sorry, Lol.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Darren said:


> Truth based on facts or assumptions?? Now I admit, I?m limited to what I know? which is positive as I?ve much to learn... but I do not quote from others, I have faith in myself and what I believe.
> 
> Can you quote anything you have written which is false? or gave you a sense of doubt please?


Usually we quote from others who strike a chord with us. I'm always quoting someone who can say something I want to say but says it better. We quote all the time. "But for the grace of God go I." I used a quotation, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." I love one by Dr. W. Osleer, "Ask not what disease the person has, but person the disease has." (that isn't right, can't think of anything) But we quote lyrics, and scripture, or poems, or books that ring true to us. That express, or echo what we want to say.

Those statements mean someone else out there thinks the same way we do, or understands. That is important in this lonely world.

I believe this is directed to Homeskooled. Not sure what the question is. Just curious.

D


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## invisible.ink (Feb 2, 2007)

I am trying to mend my relationship with God. As long as I can remember I labeled myself an atheist and sometimes an agnostic. But now I feel as though He is the only one that can keep me alive on the inside. I'm working hard towards Faith...it really is a difficult concept but I feel I need it or I'll go insane with all my existential thinking.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2007)

> Darren, Homeskooled and Martin are always sparring


I?ve a false belief if not many, this is why I see myself being Ill? I want to be proven wrong by any one in order to become well again? but how can my belief be challenge when it?s on the scale of asking whether ?we exist? or not? A vicious circle which can not be broken, only forsaken? I keep coming in and out of nirvana? happiness with out reason? *shakes head*? cheating life.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2007)

*Dreamer:* Yes in the end we could use our own words to express the same, yet if we use quotes? we may feel less alone on what we?re stating.

Thank you.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2007)

Why is lord stated as being a god and not a goddess? Or am I right in believing ?it? does not take the form of a human.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Humans aren't the only thing in the universe subject to feminity or masculinity. Yin and yang?

Until Judaism was founded, deities were often female. (According to a lecture I heard).

Perhaps the main philosophical reason for God being Male is that he is the Creator, the sperm-donor of creation. He penetrates his followers with his divine essence, which believe it or not, means that all Christian men play a feminine role in relation to God: to receive, submit, lay aside the ego.

The Earth, or Universe, manifests the results of divine penetration.

Creation is what convinces me above all that God does exist.


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## invisible.ink (Feb 2, 2007)

Darren said:


> Why is lord stated as being a god and not a goddess? Or am I right in believing ?it? does not take the form of a human.


In Christianity it is because Adam was formed in God's image. Therefore, God would be a Man. 
But then comes the question, if being a man is defined by having male sexual organs how could God be a man if he clearly has no use for a penis?
I believe God must be a genderless being. It's confusing.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2007)

invisible.ink said:


> Adam was formed in God's image.


Is that the "quote", or is there more too it? if not, it doesn't state whether it was god's physical image... only "image" its self, there's more to image than meets the eye.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2007)

Miss_Starling said:


> Humans aren't the only thing in the universe subject to feminity or masculinity. Yin and yang?
> 
> Until Judaism was founded, deities were often female. (According to a lecture I heard).
> 
> ...


Yin and yang states balance, and so that it the reason feminity and masculinity come into them.

Deities were female? Linked to sexually desires?

Why did god create hell?

Divine penetration? Would that be linked to black holes?

What existed before god, as for god to exist, he would have needed to have been created himself.


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## invisible.ink (Feb 2, 2007)

Genesis 1:26


> Then God said, ?Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[a] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.?


I guess I should've looked it over before posting what I did above. The next verse contradicts what I said about God being a man: Genesis 1:27


> So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.


I suppose "man" being mankind and not male as is implied by the last clause.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

> Until Judaism was founded, deities were often female. (According to a lecture I heard).


When I hit post I forgot who wrote this, LOL, I'm on another page of the thread, never mind, very confused and tired tonight.

I don't know if we can lay this one on Judaism. There's that ol' "Moses and Monotheism", that being that Judaism expresses One god vs. the many Gods of Greece (male and female), Egypt, and many pagan religions.

I read somewhere, and will now have to dig up some book on this, but monotheism I think is actually attributed to one of the Egyptian pharaohs, and was the God Amon Ra? Oh, man. This is from waaaay back. Then apparently this concept of "one god" vs. many translated to certain Hebraic concepts when the Jews were in Egypt.

I buy that a good bit of the old testatment is historical, but in a way one must sort the wheat from the chaff, etc.

This is another problem about all religions, and I don't know all of them, there are so many -- but again, they all seem to spring from a human desire for understanding why?

I don't think the question can ever be answered.

* What I find interesting though is I don't think there is history of ANY culture at any time in human development that DIDN'T have some form of spiritual center and ritual.

Does anyone know?*

I suppose it's another cool thing to look up, and of course we don't know what the earliest caveman was contemplating, but to the best of my understanding this is so.

Of course my problem with this is I believe in evolution, not creationism. Yeah, I am more of a biological reductionist. No matter how you slice it.

I have NO interest in anything tonight. It is presently 8:53pm and it feels as though it will be 25 hours until 11pm so I can go to bed. There is NOTHING that interests me now, except this.

I like knowing things. I suppose knowledge is "control" for me.

Anyway, I don't know who came first the ladies or the men, but I know that early Greek and Egyptian mythology had male and female gods/goddesses. And there was more pantheism than monotheism. Tree Gods, Water Gods, spirits, etc. This would be I guess reflective of Native Indian religion, etc. Oh, Lord, too many ways of trying to understand life.

Have to find a good book on the subject.

SO FREAKIN' TIRED FOR NO FREAKIN' REASON. SIGH.
Nite,
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

From Wikipedia, which I don't trust 100%, but this is how freakin' confusing this whole business is. We always think in terms of Western religion, but there is SO much more out there.

Wikipedia, forgot what I looked up, LOL:

*"God, as a male deity, contrasts with female deities, or "goddesses". While the term 'goddess' specifically refers to a female deity, words like 'gods' and 'deities' can be applied to all gods collectively, regardless of gender. They don't necessarily refer to male gods in specific.*

This article focuses on the last category.

The most prominent triad of *Hinduism Trimurti (which can be seen as three aspects of the same God) is usually depicted as all male* (Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu).

*In most polytheistic religions, both in history and in the present, male deities had the more prominent role.*

The Greek and Roman pantheon was ruled by Zeus and Jupiter, while Wodan had a similar role in the Germanic religion.

When Ancient Egyptian religion developed closer to monotheism, it was Amun, a male god, who rose to the most prominent place.

War gods were, like the rulers of the pantheon, typically male, too; Ares/Mars and Toutatis are obvious examples. Woden was both king of the gods and a god of war.

Athena, a goddess also often associated with war and strategy, is a notable exception.

Sekhmet also is an exception, as is Ishtar."

--------------------
So those who believe/believed in more than one God usually seemed to believe predominantly in males. I have a major theory of this that goes back to male fear of femininity, the power of femininity. So it is far more complex than one would think.

It's weird also there is a "trinity" in Hinduism and a "trinity" in Christianity, or versions thereof -- "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost". When I hear than, I hear male.

Too tired to amazon a good book on the subject, but I have realized a good course to take for pure interest is one in religion.

"I need some distraction, a beautiful release, from this sweet sadness, this glorious madness, that brings me to my knees......"


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## invisible.ink (Feb 2, 2007)

Dreamer said:


> > Until Judaism was founded, deities were often female. (According to a lecture I heard).
> 
> 
> When I hit post I forgot who wrote this, LOL, I'm on another page of the thread, never mind, very confused and tired tonight.
> ...


Pharaoh Akhenaten (sp?) and Queen Nefertiti established the "cult" of the Sun god Ra. He smashed statues of the other gods and forced everyone to only worship Ra. After he died this "cult" was abandoned and Egypt returned to polytheism. I can't believe I remember that from World History class. Egypt was always my favorite ancient civilization, though.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

invisible ink said:


> Pharaoh Akhenaten (sp?) and Queen Nefertiti established the "cult" of the Sun god Ra. He smashed statues of the other gods and forced everyone to only worship Ra. After he died this "cult" was abandoned and Egypt returned to polytheism. I can't believe I remember that from World History class. Egypt was always my favorite ancient civilization, though.


Yup that's it! And as I understand, somehow that time of monotheism of the Sun God Ra or Amon, Amun, Amen Ra, LOL, that the Hebrews incorporated the concept of monotheism ... or some groups did ... and it was ultimately Moses who took this with him and his people when they made their Exodus. Oh man, now I hear the music from "The Ten Commandments". LOL.

Yup, my father took me to the museum on Saturdays and my first stop HAD to be the Egyptian stuff, because of the MUMMIES, LOL. I love old Egyptian art/heiroglyphics, etc. Isis and Osiris, the creation stories. This is odd, but I took an iconography in Art course, and the image of the baby Jesus in Mary's lap is the same as baby Horus in Isis' lap. Hey, that's what I learned in class.

That is what is amazing when you study world mythology you find common themes all over the place. One could look at that in about 17 different ways, interpret it in many different ways.

You know, those were the good old days.

College, and museum days with my Dad, not ol' King Tut 8)


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## invisible.ink (Feb 2, 2007)

I looooove museums! I go to the Museum of Natural History and the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago twice a year. I only leave 80 miles away so it's not a long trip and it's well worth it.
The Museum of Natural History has a HUGE Egyptian exhibit. I took about ninety million pictures.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2007)

There are two and a half Egyptian mummies in our Derby museum, I asked one of the service users what the mummy would taste of if you were to kiss him, she totally laughed? the staff weren't as laughable? although I believed he?d taste of ?carbon?? wonder if he?s prefer tongue or no tongue?


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## invisible.ink (Feb 2, 2007)

Darren said:


> There are two and a half Egyptian mummies in our Derby museum, I asked one of the service users what the mummy would taste of if you were to kiss him, she totally laughed? the staff weren't as laughable? although I believed he?d taste of ?carbon?? wonder if he?s prefer tongue or no tongue?


You're a strange one, Darren. :shock:


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2007)

And you're totally normal! :mrgreen: ))) Huggles (((


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## invisible.ink (Feb 2, 2007)

Perhaps not but I'm no necropheliac. lol Joke.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2007)

Necromouse: (18+, shows a dead mouse in a mouse trap; no blood)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Necromouse.jpg

It's quite normal in the animal kingdom  yet I don't swing "that" way... heh


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Ink, I will make you horribly envious. My mother and I used to travel all over the world. We would nearly kill each other. The last trip I took with her was to Egypt. We took a boat down the Nile. I swear it. I was so DP/DR I don't know how I managed it, but it was amazing.

We actually crawled up INSIDE a pyramid. There was a sarcophagus at the top. Saw the Sphinx. I also saw the Temple at Thebes, Luxor ... and the most astonishing place, Abu Simbal. There are these collosi sp? - giant images of the pharaohs the size of a 20 story building.

We had the chance to also go to the museum in Cairo, which holds the bulk of the contents of King Tut's tomb. I swear there were three FLOORS of a museum with that stuff. We were there an entire day and saw about 1/10th of what was there. We also saw the tomb itself in the Valley of the Kings. Just the main entrance.

I took tons of photos as well, but with an "ancient" and super 35 mm camera. Man, I have to scan those pics at some time. You would pass out.

I must say though, at the time, the city had horrible areas of poverty and misery. Women were treated like crap, including the woman who was our guide -- a Ph.D. in Egyptology who could READ THE HEIROGLYPHICS for us. She was taunted for wearing "Western Clothing" -- very modest dresses. And there is a place called "The City of the Dead" (I think), which is where the impoverished live in a giant graveyard.

I am very fortunate. I have seen places that I fear will be gone, due to wars. So many places have been destroyed in many wars. I fear for Jerusalem as it is the gathering place of so many religions. I've never been to Israel or that area of the Middle East.

It is stunning to see a completely different culture like that.

Makes me feel good I am an American. Sometimes. And it is indeed astonishing to be somewhere where there is no Christmas, no Easter, where there are Mosques with no images -- only mosaics. Fascinating there were mosques built on top of Eygptian buildings. Sand had covered much of ancient Egypt.

Just astonishing. And trying to get a tad back on topic here. :?

D


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Darren, Invisible Ink, Dreamer, 
Darren, I'm not sure why you'd want me to post something that I wrote that I doubt. Why would I write it, then, if I did not think it was true to the best of my ability? I wrote about something that I, indeed, have not made up my mind on - the use of a condom. Does it inhibit true openness to life and sexual expression? Yes, probably, but I dont "know" that. When I "know" something, its a feeling monks call "divine intuition" that I can feel when I pray. Its through this intuition that monks "hear" God. Then you truly feel that you "know" something, or have a deeper understanding of it. It isnt a physical voice, and it isnt just for monks or myself - everyone is supposed to experience this. Its one of the most fulfilling things you can do in life. Most of the things I write are from these silent experiences with God and prayer. Do I have doubt? Yes, but only when I'm not praying enough, or am having a rough time of it because I wasnt praying before making major decisions. This week, for instance has been rough and full of doubt. But what I write, these things are from intuitions deep within me from when I pray, therefore if I know anything, I know these things. Although I'm sure there is a margin of error, as I'm only human. They are also guidelines so that people who read my posts can also come to a fulfilling way to pray and know God, and share some of the fruits from my prayer life, as spotty as it is sometimes.

Is God a male or a female? Well, if he is one or the other, how then can He create the sex that He ISNT? He cant create what is not of Himself. All things are an expression of God and God's love. That includes both males and females. The answer is that God is _both_ male and female. But it serves his relational purposes with humanity, especially in the Old Testament, to be seen as a Father figure. His son, Christ, because he had a physical presence, only possessed the traits of one of the sexes in His physical form. Sex is not something you do, it is something that you are, so it permeates you, soul and body, inside and out. Christ contained both a fully human essence and a fully divine essence. His human essence was male, as his human body was, but His divinity, just like that of his "Father" in heaven, encompasses all gender. The Holy Spirit, who in Christian theology proceeds from the Father and the Son, is usually depicted as a dove. He/it encompasses the Truth that proceeds from God, and who gives the "fruits of the Holy Spirit" - gentleness, love, knowledge, wisdom, understanding, courage, and of course, peace.....all of the things that people aspire to have, to be. They are each seperate persons, but one God, making a complete divine family from which everything that exists springs forths, reflects, and gets its meaning. There could not be two sexes if they were not a part of God first.

There is also much meaning to the word man. In the Genesis account, Adam means something like "human" or the "father of mankind". Before he was given a companion, he was considered to contain both male and female within him , as the first woman, Eve, was taken _from_ him. So the ancient writers saw "Man" as encompassing both genders, at least at this point, making it a little easier to see that the ancients did not quite see God thier "Father" as a slap in the face to women. I have been told that wo-man, in the Old Testament, comes from the combination of "womb" and "man" (in other words, from the womb of a man), although I sort of doubt that this is completely correct, philologically. So there you go, Darren. There's something else I doubt. But that first paragraph I pretty much mean.

Oh, and Invisible Ink, I'm glad you get something from what I wrote. I have some meditations up in the Spirituality section that might help, and sometimes when I write, it just feels right, and peaceful. That's a little how the Holy Spirit feels. I hope it all helps you. Faith isnt really that hard. After you get to know how strongly He exists, its almost hard to call it "faith". At a certain point it just feels realistic.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2007)

*Homeskooled*

With all due respect (not only because you?re a mod of the site, but you also have feeling) you seemed dogmatic/self-righteous Homeskooled? Your doubts are due to lack of praying? So if you where to pray enough, you?d be a dogmatist? Seems as if you?re speaking god?s voice? yet based on assumptions; I?m sure I?ve ill judged you? I?m arrogant due to ?needing? answers. If I had the emotions of being remorseful, I would be truly sorry, yet as I can only be logical with some emotions? all I can offer is an empty sorry?



> The answer is that God is both male and female.


Thank you for your reply on this, I agree with you fully.

---------------------

Fascinating how god is a hermaphrodite? (heh, joke).


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Homeskooled said:


> Is God a male or a female? Well, if he is one or the other, how then can He create the sex that He ISNT? He cant create what is not of Himself.


It did occur to me after writing my bit that that would be the case. In relation to the Universe, I see God as Male. In and of Himself, both sexes because He would be completely whole.


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Darren, 
I've edited my post to streamline it, so there is less about me and more about the process. I hope that helps.



> Your doubts are due to lack of praying?


Yes.



> So if you where to pray enough, you?d be a dogmatist?


No, when I pray enough, my life/existential questions are answered/dissappear/ are consumed by a certainty in God's goodness.



> Seems as if you?re speaking god?s voice?


Insofar as I experience Him. There is always a human element to mysticism, as the experience of God is "filtered" through that person, and the stage they are at.



> yet based on assumptions


There is no way to answer that, as it is in and of itself, an accusation based on an assumption.



> I?m sure I?ve ill judged you


Well, yes.



> I?m arrogant due to ?needing? answers.


_I_ would be guilty of assuming if I said that. I'm sure you are just in lots of doubt and turmoil.



> all I can offer is an empty sorry?


Dont worry about it. Its quite alright.

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Miss_Starling said:


> Homeskooled said:
> 
> 
> > Is God a male or a female? Well, if he is one or the other, how then can He create the sex that He ISNT? He cant create what is not of Himself.
> ...


I hate to quote myself but I had something to add that I thought was worth its own little spot.

God isn't like the Yin and Yang symbol. In theory He is entirely whole. That means that he would be fully integrated.

This relates a bit to my ambitions in my own mind: integration of the many parts so they are not divided but harmonious. Though of course, in my own mind, character traits and such would still have a place. That is what makes me a person with the potential to actualise in the Image of God, rather than Be God.

If Eve came from Adam, that correlates rather beautifully with the idea that before the big bang, all matter was held in an infinitely small space. I am not a physicist, but I expect that polarities like matter and anti-matter, male and female, up and down etc came after the explosion, symbolic of the spit of what was otherwise a whole entity but present in the world...

Okay, I have to admit I'm getting bogged down here. I assume that matter held in infintessimal space was not the same as God Himself. Although in a sense, if the Universe didn't have space-time....it does make you wonder what exactly delineated it from God Himself.

Hm. More food for thought.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Darren said:


> *Homeskooled*
> Seems as if you?re speaking god?s voice? yet based on assumptions


Hey, How's it going?

If there is such thing as truth, it is objective and therefore trans-personal. So when you speak truth, your personality shouldn't figure too much in it, although as Homeskooled says, it will to some degree because it isn't really possible to stop being human to that extent, though it was for Jesus.


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## invisible.ink (Feb 2, 2007)

Dreamer said:


> Ink, I will make you horribly envious. My mother and I used to travel all over the world. We would nearly kill each other. The last trip I took with her was to Egypt. We took a boat down the Nile. I swear it. I was so DP/DR I don't know how I managed it, but it was amazing.
> 
> We actually crawled up INSIDE a pyramid. There was a sarcophagus at the top. Saw the Sphinx. I also saw the Temple at Thebes, Luxor ... and the most astonishing place, Abu Simbal. There are these collosi sp? - giant images of the pharaohs the size of a 20 story building.
> 
> ...


I am horribly envious of you, Dreamer.  That sounds like it was wonderful (aside from the DP) and I would love to travel the world someday, especially to Egypt.
By the way, Dreamer, I visited your website and your story touched me. I spent a few hours last night pouring over everything you had written. I found it very interesting and informative. I can relate to a lot of it and I just want to thank you for making such a wonderful site!


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## invisible.ink (Feb 2, 2007)

Homeskooled said:


> Oh, and Invisible Ink, I'm glad you get something from what I wrote. I have some meditations up in the Spirituality section that might help, and sometimes when I write, it just feels right, and peaceful. That's a little how the Holy Spirit feels. I hope it all helps you. Faith isnt really that hard. After you get to know how strongly He exists, its almost hard to call it "faith". At a certain point it just feels realistic.
> 
> Peace
> Homeskooled


You wrote about your relationship with God so eloquently that it touched me. The relationship you have with Him is something I wish to obtain.
Faith is difficult with me because by definition, Faith is unquestioning belief. And by nature, I am a very inquisitive and questioning person. It is hard for me to have "blind" Faith though I wish to have it. I always question myself and the world and existence. 
I believe the Lord is the only one who can help me and I am working very hard to put my life in His hands.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2007)

Homeskooled said:


> Darren,
> I've edited my post to streamline it, so there is less about me and more about the process. I hope that helps.


Thank you Homeskooled, that?s considerate and it will help ease my dyslexia. Does this ?process? have a name? ("divine intuition"?)



Homeskooled said:


> Your doubts are due to lack of praying? - Yes


?I wasnt praying before making major decisions?, How many major decisions have gone wrong due to you not praying before hand?



Homeskooled said:


> No, when I pray enough, my life/existential questions are answered/dissappear/ are consumed by a certainty in God's goodness.


So you?re going on your gut feelings?(What i would state to be divine intuition myself) yet what?s this about ?praying enough? how can you lack in praying? Do you need/want to prey before each judgement you make, do you avoid believing in yourself? I don?t quite understand and that?s why I ask, not to provoke or upset you, maybe I need to prey myself? Humm, yeah? it wouldn?t harm me to prey and it would also make my judgements on myself and others more clear.



Homeskooled said:


> Insofar as I experience Him. There is always a human element to mysticism, as the experience of God is "filtered" through that person, and the stage they are at.


So due to this element, you believe in something which has yet to be proven? If it courses people to become happier, seems quite wise in some respects.



Homeskooled said:


> There is no way to answer that, as it is in and of itself, an accusation based on an assumption.


tou?ch?; good call.



Homeskooled said:


> I?m sure I?ve ill judged you - Well, yes.


As long as you don?t start feeling uncomfortable? may I carry on the grounds of ?trail and error?, it?s a great way to learn.



Homeskooled said:


> I?m arrogant due to ?needing? answers. - I would be guilty of assuming if I said that. I'm sure you are just in lots of doubt and turmoil.


Then you?d be guilty of being human. Yes, being confused whether I exist or not is quite turmoil? yet you might know this? although I?m unaware whether you?ve recovered from DR/DP.

Thank you for your time and effort Homeskooled, I appreciate your comments as they serve to help me, would be a winner if you gain something in return from me.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Homeskooled wrote something above about the requirement of complete faith in order to experience God truely.

I don't know. For a while I have had a rather contradictory attitude where, although mentally I believed it wasn't possible to prove the existance of God was there, I was willing to pray as if He was. This rather reduced it to an exercise of fantasy.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2007)

*Miss_Starling*

Sound apart from my shoulders, they ache? and I?m quite confused that I haven?t been out tonight with it being my birthday and all, I was invited yet, all I wanted was to relax? I?ve enjoyed myself thought. How are things with you big ears? 

I?m testing everything, I want to know what I believe in? so I must slowly but surely come to some conclusion to what I ?am?.

Truth is so fragile, it?s so wonderful? One truth I believe in is; ?love?, I want to be at the stage where I?ll defend one soul because if that soul died, my would die along with it?

Develop our personalities? Yes? although by allowing a master to develop it for us, we can only assume that we are developing our selves correctly because our mind may become narrow minded, and the main reason, it?s unhealthy to be so self-focused while we lack training.

What does ?transpersonal? mean to you?

Why would god focus on _one_ in 6.5 billion people?

Thank you.

*Clicks fingers*


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2007)

?If you don?t believe in god, you?ll go to hell?

That?s what my sister?s Christian friend told her.

?Why have enemies when you have friends??


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## invisible.ink (Feb 2, 2007)

Darren said:


> Why would god focus on _one_ in 6.5 billion people?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> *Clicks fingers*


God is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Infinite. He Sees all and Hears all, so I don't think it'd be very difficult for Him to focus on each and every being on earth. Simultaneously, at that.


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## invisible.ink (Feb 2, 2007)

Miss_Starling said:


> Faith.
> 
> Homeskooled wrote something above about the requirement of complete faith in order to experience God truely.
> 
> ...


My reasoning is that Life is far too complex to be a "cosmic accident". I could go into detail but my thoughts are difficult to put into words. It's just strange how everything on earth fits together, ya know? Life (as in all life on earth...ecosystems and the like) is like a giant puzzle and every piece is a PERFECT fit. I don't know if I'm explaining myself very clearly but hopefully you'll know what I mean.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

edit


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2007)

*invisible.ink:*

God must be ?all? energy in other to be infinite? even the plastic keys I press as I?m writing these words are part of him? *Hits keyboard really hard*? heh. And so, why would he focus on us?


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

edit

bluh, sorry.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2007)

*Miss_Starling*

I wouldn?t die ?with? another soul in vain, I would protect that soul if need be due to loving them...


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2007)

*Miss_Starling:*

The mind will have to rest.


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## invisible.ink (Feb 2, 2007)

Darren said:


> *invisible.ink:*
> 
> God must be ?all? energy in other to be infinite? even the plastic keys I press as I?m writing these words are part of him? *Hits keyboard really hard*? heh. And so, why would he focus on us?


Why wouldn't He if He created us? We are His children. He would focus on us for the same reason I focus on my son (I know the circumstances are a wee bit different seeing as I don't have 6.5 billion children. lol).
God can be anything He wants. Since He is The Creator he is not limited by the boundaries of physics. He is above and aside from any scientific law that man has discovered because without Him those laws would not be in place.

Anyway, I want to bring something up. Anne Rice wrote a novel called Memnoch The Devil. I don't want to go into the details of the story since that would take forever but it brings up an interesting theory (although it is purely fictional).
Memnoch explains to the main character, Lestat, that he theorized God did not know how He came to be. So, as an experiment, he set Life into motion to see if matter would eventually evolve into an incorporeal being such as Himself. Eventually (in the novel) mankind developed souls.
I don't know...it's a good read.


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## Epiphany (Apr 28, 2006)

Damn...so many issues touched on here that I would like to respond to but just don't have the energy.

HS...I really liked your post (the one that Invisible Ink commented on)...although I don't share your beliefs it really was a lovely analogy. It left me with an image of parallel lines running between your beliefs and my own...
____________________________________________________________
l_________l______________l_________________l_l__________l____l__

Hmmm...so it's been touched on again. The main reason I cannot relate to God. "He", "Him" "Father". It bothers me that "God" has been conceptualised and masculinised (is this a word?) as a caring, feeling being. Had I been encouraged to view "Him" as an element, a force not unlike gravity or inertia, or even as an energy similar to light, sound, vibrating waves of some sort, perhaps I would be able to say I believe in God...but I can't grasp the concept of "God" as a creator, a visionary, as human-like. For some reason the notion strikes me as preposterous and makes me feel quite irritated (for reasons I don't recognise...anyone able to pyschoanalyse that for me...why I feel irritated at the thought?). I won't go into any of my theories or musings on how we all came to be/existence etc but I will say that I recall from a young age questioning my uncomfortableness with the image of "God". My parents encouraged us to find our own answers...and I did dabble with a little religious experimentation when I was younger but none of it ever felt right...the stuff I was being fed just kept giving me that uncomfortable feeling...so many people seem to be missing the point (not that I claim to really know what the point is exactly, but they just seem way off line).

Sigh...why can't we just be comfortable with not knowing? With not having the answers? I wish it didn't bother me.

Drat...have lots more to babble about but have to go. For the best I guess coz I somehow made it all about me anyway. ) Oops.



> God is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Infinite.


BTW...I like this.


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

Epiphany, 
I dont think it matters what sex God is, you know? Nothing can be made by a creator unless the creator first contains it. I cannot write anything that I have not thought. I cannot pretend to be angry until I have at least once experienced. I cannot tell you the difference between a "warm" and a "cool" color unless I can see. God contains the sexes. To His Chosen people, in a brutal, warring era, a male archetype worked. But he cant create mothers unless He Himself can mother.

Does it really matter if a male archetype worked in that time? Feminism seeks to destroy masculine symbolism as if masculinity itself is the offense, the cause of its own insecurity, when in reality, it has always been my experience that feminists are uncomfortable with their own _femininity_ and emotional vulnerability. I've also always noted that while feminism seeks to blame masculine archetypes, few chauvinists attack motherhood. I dont really know what significance this has, I've just noted it. It doesnt seem to be a two-way street. But I digress. Wishing to see God as a force of nature has merit. What I think you may be rebelling against is the cookie-cutter, holy card, religious statue/icon look that you, and most people raised in religious households, associate with God's personhood. Well, he IS bigger than these things - very much so. There is actually more to Him than just His personhood, but you have to get to the heart of the truth about Him before you'll find that out. Your feelings mirror my own at one point. The way to find Him when one feels this way about organized, sentimentalized religion, is what the monks of the ancient Christian world called "the way of nothingness". They threw out all preconceived notions of God, lived in the desert away from all churches, icons, and statues, and simply prayed and waited - in silence - for God to reveal Himself to them, which of course, He/she did. You see, when Moses asked the burning bush Whom he should tell the Jews had sent Him, He said "Tell them that I AM sent you. The God of thier fathers, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob has sent you - I AM. And this shalll be my title for all ages." God did not delineate a gender, but rather the fact that He IS, and that all that exists in the AM, the present moment, gains its meaning from Him. We often ask who created God, but to Him, that is a moot point. Time itself, as Einstein would tell you, is a creation, a force like gravity which can even be affected by the speeds you travel. God is not under this constraint which He created. He has always existed and always will, in His timeless present. So you are probably right to question this, and to seek more, Epiphany. Just know that He IS like you, not in all ways, but many, because you are made in His image, and He is the places within you that are "true".

Peace
Homeskooled


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Homeskooled said:


> few chauvinists attack motherhood. I dont really know what significance this has, I've just noted it.


I'm finding it hard to breath for some reason.

Here's a list of things that I believe attack motherhood:

Artifical food/drink
Pollution
War
Creative suppression in the workplace (of both sexes!)

Industrialism, slavery, raping land of nutrients for dollars.

Actions speak louder than words, and the chauvinists are shouting.


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## invisible.ink (Feb 2, 2007)

Homeskooled-
Once again you awe me with your words. You make me feel as though my pursuit of my relationship with God is the right path. Your insight is profound.
May I ask how you came to terms with all this? How did you find God?


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

:? As much as Homeskooled and I differ, I never, ever get the impression that he is attacking me for my 'lack of faith'. And even if he did, I wouldn't give a damn. It has nothing to do with my leaukemia, nothing at all.

I have absolutely no problem with an individuals personal spiritual belief. Not at all. I don't have the right to care, or the will. My problem is, and always will be, is when the core and blindindly obviously crazy aspects of certain religions interefere with peoples lives, in a negative way. And it's happening all the time, every day, all around us, in almost every aspect of life, and we are meant to put up with it, respect it!!!!! It astonishes me so much that it makes my head spin. The insanity of it all defies comprehension.


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