# Janine - Need your advice for recovery.



## Milan (May 29, 2005)

I'm writing this post targeting Janine but I placed it here so that those who are having a similar experience may find some benefit from these words.

I really want this post to start a thread where Janine can help out with problems that people have on there journey to recovery.

Janine I recently bought your ebook and have read mostly the parts that suggest what you should do to get better. Great book and I recommend it to others on this board.

A quick introduction. I have been having what I suppose you could label as Anxiety/DP/DR disorder for about 2 years. It first struck my when I was on a meditation retreat two years ago. I left after experiencing very strange negative states. Those awful experiences lasted about 5-6 months then dissipated. About a year ago my son woke me early one morning and whilst trying to get to sleep again I had an anxiety attack and unfortunately the feelings came back and I have been battling them since. Got really bad about Xmas time including bad head and chest pains and then I went and saw a psych. He put me on an SSRI which helped me sleep and got rid of the chest and head aches but the CBT seems to have hit a brick wall. At this point I'm feeling very anxious, scared, confused, tired, helpless and sad whilst I spend most of the time battling my mind and only managing to live my life.

I'm writing because I need hope and strength to get through this insidious condition quickly . I probably speak on behalf of a most of the people on this board. Janine because you have gone through this illness I respect your words more so than any other person even if they mean well.

I need to quickly express a couple of symptoms that bother me the most. One is the derealisation. I thought when my head ache and chest pains passed that the feeling of derealisation would also go. But even with a clear head the feeling still comes. I could be coping well then with out thinking and instantly I become overly aware of my surroundings, but in a negative way. In that instant it's like I've noticed the material reality around me for the first time, every thing is recognisable but very odd, strange and very frightening. The anxiety then hits like a lighting bolt and then suddenly nothing makes sense, I lose all grounding and sense of self. Then I'm stuck in this terrible strange altered state of unreality and anxiety. There are many other bothering symptoms and I could spend pages writing about them but ultimately it leads to that God awful feeling where every mental construct of my reality is shattered, and it pains me. It's like I have seen/experienced something that I never should have and now the mind can't settle back into it's normal default state. It's as if I'm afraid of the normal human experience.

Unfortunately I have dissected every thing that makes up my reality which includes my perception of my surroundings, my mind, thoughts, feelings, mental processing, body mind relationship, automatic functioning etc - you all know what I'm talking about. I sometimes convinced that I won't get well because I feel that I've conditioned my mind to readily and unintentionally focus on these states that I've mentioned. When I try not to focus on these things then there is this underlying current of fear which stays with me most of the time. But if I check to see what is bothering me I notice the fear increasing in intensity. I'm trapped.

It's not all doom and gloom. At times when I feel grounded for a few moments and see my wife and child I get those warm fuzzy - I'm real feelings and it's absolutely sublime, I just wish it could happen more often and stay.

Your book has reinforced the fact that only outward actions will fix this problem just like my psych has said. I believe this to be true but a little guidance and reassurance along would help to expedite the recovery.

A question to start the thread:

How do I get past the brick wall I've hit with the CBT? I have a lot of trouble controlling the anxiety. My psych has said that until you believe that nothing will happen to you, you will never get better. I know that, but each time I notice any feelings of unreality, automatic functioning, strangeness of existence/self etc the fear comes back strong each time I don't seem to be able to conquer that (you described a similar experience in your book). I think he is probably going to try different meds but I don't know if this will help as it seems to be more of a mental thing with me.

Basically the question I'm asking is how do you conquer the fear?

Also do you know of any good psychs in this field in Sydney Australia.

Sorry for the long disjointed post but I'm keen to integrate my self.

Kind Regards

Milan


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## Guest (May 30, 2005)

It wasn't disjointed at all (your words) even though I know YOU feel disjointed. That was always amazing to me, that I could sound so together when I truly felt like I was seconds away from total insanity.

Here's the bad news, grin. I NEVER reached a point where I didn't fear the symptoms. I tried. For most of my life, I tried...but every single time those powerful feelings of unreality hit, I was as helpless and as petrifed as the first time I ever felt them.

That's the nature of the animal. We FEEL terrified because the feelings of dp and dr are by nature, creations of the mind that are designed BY THE MIND to separate us from our sense of reality. If you are NOT afraid of them, I'd go so far as to say that it's a very different "flavor" of dp/dr than I ever experienced.

But...you do not actually have to "make peace" with them to get rid of them.

For me, the process was multi-fold. I did heavy duty work on longterm depth therapy (for me, psychoanalytic therapy, but it need not be THAT intense, just intense enough). Once I was able to unlock some of the more "ordinary" fears and obsessions that I'd been living with all my life, the shifts that produced inside my sense of self took away the worst of the symptoms. It sounds so obtuse, but the gist of it for me was this:

I had caused my breakdown, and anxiety and obsessiveness and dp and dr out of trying to live SO hidden from myself, so guarded against many thoughts and feelings. The symptoms were a natural outgrowth of a person who was hanging by a thread of reality anyway - but didn't realize it, or more to the point, never wanted to know.

My personality was a mess, lol....I fluctuated from thinking I was absolutely extraordinary, capable of Greatness, and Destined for greatness - to suddenly plummeting into the depths of self-hatred and total self-disgust. I hated my humanity and loved my "Specialness' - and lived trying to build up fantasies about the one and hide from the other.

That is the VERy short version. In therapy, I was able to (forced to, lol) face much more reality than I ever thought possible. THAT process, the slow examining of how I had constructed a self-image based on lies and fears, that is what made the symtpoms obsolete.

My "focus outward" advice is for the worst of times. As I started to feel more grounded and recover from the horrors, those dp and dr states would STILL rear their heads nearly daily. At those times, I finally learned to FORCE myself not to examine them. I was still terrifief of them, and sometimes had to race back home, lie to people about how I was feeling, etc...the same ol' crap. But once I got home, I did NOT examine the thoughts or sensations. It is the hardest thing you will ever do, but you must FORCE your attention totally away from yourself and your symptoms.

We all try that and quickly say "well, that's lovely, but that doesn't work!" Well, no. It doens't work at first. Or second. It works SLOWLY, over time, as you stop DEALING with the symptoms. We have no choice but to feel them when they come over us. But where we do the damage and sink them in stone is when we TURN INWARD and examine and observe and "watch" ourselves constantly, assessing this moment of symptom versus yesterday's symptom. And we try to form patterns or theories for why this particular bad moment appeared. We are paying attention to them. CANNOT do that and expect to get better.

But...that is very very different from saying you have to not fear them. I never surmounted my fear of them. Never. I just forced my attention away from them, against all impulse, and kept forcing my attention away minute by minute. Some days it was easier, some harder...I kept doing it.

You cannot get well while WATCHING your symptoms or trying to "figure them out" directly.

Work on other aspects of yourself and when they do their worst, FORCE your mental energies anywhere but on self.

I wish I did know someone good to recommend in Australia, but maybe someone else will suggest.

Anway, hope this helps a bit and VERy glad to know my book was useful to you.

All the best,
Janine


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## ret (Aug 10, 2004)

How can I get your book janine?

EDIT: Is there any other way other than through amazon?


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## rainboteers (Apr 5, 2005)

I just bought the book on http://www.amazon.com


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## enigma (Feb 18, 2005)

rainboteers said:


> I just bought the book on http://www.amazon.com


Hey, Janine's books _are_ available on the U.S. Amazon.com now (I just ordered "Unraveling").

Thanks Rainbo!

e


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## rainboteers (Apr 5, 2005)

No problem


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

Janine,

My therapist, who is trained in psychoanalysis, thinks that I want a penis. I am not aware of any such desire -- either now or ever in the past, although I did have a dream once where I had one.

I find the above downright silly, frankly, but my therapist seems otherwise qualified. I haven't a clue whether to stop seeing her or not. I've stayed with the same therapist for more than 10 years.

Any thoughts?

Sojourner


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## Ben (Apr 21, 2005)

Sojourner,

Psychoanalysis is stupid and should have died with the dinosaurs. Freud had some interesting theories and made a lot of people think but rarely solved anything in my opinion. I have two friends who are getting their PhDs in the field of psychology and so I have met a lot of individuals in tht world and most people with training in psychoanalysis are pie-in-the-sky nutjobs. I have very, very little respect for that branch of therapy. You give them a question and they give you another question or an answer that is so broad that it can be read like a damn fortune cookie - how is that solving anything?

Let's say that you do want a Penis? What would Freud say? Well, I doubt that he could come up with anything ultra-constructive from that thought other than you want a Penis. How is that helpful? How is that constructive? If you get a Penis is your world going to make more sense? Why would it be bad or good to have a Penis? So you date someone that reminds who of your dad - who gives a crap? I think the whole thing is nutty and basically exists for job security amongst psychoanalysts. This person is going to take you down a dozen ratholes and end up wasting a lot of money for you...find yourself a more rational therapist and get on with your life.

In my honest opinion, I have never read anything from Freud, Jung, etc. that someone else couldn't have simply made up. Smart people with way too much time and way too much utilization in modern-day therapy.

What kind of therapist would leave you with the thought that you want a Penis and have you believe that gives you any constructive bearing on your state within the physical world in which you live?


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## enigma (Feb 18, 2005)

I've always capitalized the word "Penis".

e


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## rainboteers (Apr 5, 2005)

What I would like to know is why they are so obsessed with sex? I went to a freudian-type therapist. He came highly recommended and I drove 6 hours to see him. I stayed in a hotel for 2 weeks to have 8 sessions with him. All the man talked about was sex. How it related to this problem and that problem. At first I thought he was joking, but he wasn't. Really creeped me out because he wanted very intimate details about my sex life. I don't know if they are all quacks but that one was. The sad part is he is very popular and has tons of clients. Weird. :shock:

I don't think it was right of your therapist to put that thought into your head either, just gave your anxious mind something else to worry about. You have been with her for 10 years. I would say you gave her more than a fair try and if she is not helping move on.


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## Ben (Apr 21, 2005)

enigma - do you have Penis envy or something - geez!


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

Hi, Ben,

Thanks for your comment. One of Freud's ideas is that all girl children go through an infantile stage of "penis envy." Now, maybe it's true. But if it's unconscious, I don't know about it, and saying I am still suffering from the "complex" doesn't help.

I am sure that the unconscious exists, though.

Perhaps I exaggerate the importance of her saying that, though. I did have that dream. But who knows why? If we dream in archetypes, then perhaps it was just a symbol of "power."

I guess my point is -- even if it's true, how does it affect me now? Maybe I need to put that question to her more clearly next week.

Meanwhile, I seem to be realizing that this is a psychological illness, probably predominantly, so as soon as I stabilize, I will ask my doctor about reducing the Zoloft. Not that I have any side effects, but if the Zoloft is masking any feelings, psychotherapy will be less effective.

I have had a breakthrough over the last several days. I actually had an attack that went away. That was the first that I lived through without taking Ativan after at least several hours.

Lord have mercy.

B. or S. or Q. or L.


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

Rainboteers,

Actually, *I* must have brought it up. I am single, never married, and I remember that dream from maybe 8 years ago. Frankly, I think I just wanted a man to love. ; )

So, she didn't plant the idea in my mind -- I brought it up.


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## enigma (Feb 18, 2005)

Ben said:


> enigma - do you have Penis envy or something - geez!


Thought that was something only girls got (at least, according to the highly questionable Dr Freud, anyway), LOL!

e


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## rainboteers (Apr 5, 2005)

I see... 

I have noticed that sometimes therapy works against people though. For instance my anxiety didn't get outta control until I was told I had an anxiety DISORDER. Suddenly everything changed and I was very upset. I was labeled, diagnosed and put in a box. Now I can't find my way back out.

The point I am trying to make is that they can have a powerful influence on your thoughts because we count on them to help us figure out what the hell is going on with us. I hope that made some sense. Gettin kinda tired.

Does penis envy mean that we are jealous of guys because we think they have it easier, or does it mean that we are jealous of their actual penis? I find the latter of the two ridiculous.


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

Don't worry -- men get to have the "castration complex"!!

The notion that little girls see they are "missing" a body part is what's behind it. I don't think I knew about that before I was 5, though. I was the youngest of five girls and I never saw my father naked! LOL.

So I didn't even KNOW I was "missing" anything...

S.


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## rainboteers (Apr 5, 2005)

Oh your kidding? I have a least heard of penis envy, but castration complex? What is that? Are they afraid it will be taken away? Maybe there are some people who really suffer from this so I am trying not to make light of it, but I think these "complexes" are a complete waste of time. At least guys have something too, I was begining to think it was awful unfair. :lol:

Still it all revolves around the penis. If you have one you are scared it will be taken away, if you don't have one you are jealous. If you ask me Frued was just in love with his penis.


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## Guest (May 30, 2005)

Oh, dear Lord, lol?.Milan asks some great questions, I post a nice reply, several people give me some wonderful Book publicity, I go to bed and then by morning the thread has devolved into a Penis Journal, lolol

Okay, here?s the thing about psychoanalysis and Le Penis. Soujourner, I have no idea HOW your analyst broached that topic with you, lol..but it sure sounds like it was sadly lacking context.

Technically, you guys are correct in that the ?penis envy? ideas sound absurd, but there is a kind of ?shorthand? (no organ irony intended) that is used in psychoanalysis (usually from analyst to analyst though) that involves the developmental phase of ?a child becoming aware of sexual differences,? etc. Sometimes the root of a neurotic pattern is based, not in LITERAL wishing-for-a-man?s-penis, but in the symbol of what it represents. If a woman has tremendous conflict around her own aggressive and ambitious impulses ? wants to succeed, to be recognized, to be independent, to be powerful, etc. and AT THE SAME TIME feels enormous guilt or shame over not being submissive, or feels afraid of retaliation ? those kinds of hidden patterns can dictate a personality type. And inside that personality type might lie someone who is ?at war? with life. Wanting to HAVE and afraid to pursue. The ?symbol? around it all, in psychoanalytic language, might involve the penis and what it STANDS for in terms of potency or power.

It also might involve conficts we have with parental authority or the role of our mother - not wanting to surpass her (and at the same time, very much wanting to surpass her, etc., and the unspoken fears that IF we do, we'll lose her love. That can translate into fearing that if we become the powerful Male Role we secretly desire, no one will love us, as if it's an either/or. So we "hide" our penis ambitions, lol....to keep seducing love out of other people, fooling them into thinking we're more submissive and benign than we wish we were - the key here is the FOOLING part, i.e., we can't even trust the love we do get because we believe it's based on a mask.

It?s not even 6 in the morning here, and I think it?s too early for me to try to describe this, lol?.

But psychoanalysis is NOT about this, lol?it?s really a way of learning about the unconscious motivations we all have, learning to recognize what drives an individual, to ?make the unconscious conscious? and to ultimately come to terms with reality in all its good and bad. The premise being that most people spend their lives HIDING from more reality than they digest, and their defenses used to successfully hide and lie to themselves are the root of much pain.

Again, too early for me to be cogent. Just let the penis continue.
LOL,
Janine


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

Janine,

Sorry for apparently hijacking your wonderful response. I found it very helpful. It's amazing to me that in the course of a few days I've changed my thinking about my illness. I am so grateful to whoever runs this site. Who *does* run it, by the way?

Thank you for responding yet again.

What you say makes sense, and I wrote something about "power" earlier, as well.

Again, my therapist is innocent of introducing the subject; it was I who had a dream that I had one and told her about it (some years ago).

I have to talk to her about this and clear it up. Maybe I need to bring a new attitude toward my therapy. I thought I had insight into myself, but perhaps I don't. I thought I understood my motivations and my defenses, but perhaps I am kidding myself. I'm going to talk to my therapist about setting some goals for the therapy and see how that works out. I've been doing some reading on this site, which I found quite helpful:

http://www.aboutpsychotherapy.com/

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Janine, are you the poet from Australia?

S. (I keep starting to sign with my real initial)


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## ret (Aug 10, 2004)

you're not very good at selling your book janine


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## Guest (May 30, 2005)

Janine has some very helpful advice.I'm with her,the fear never leaves.
I also agree when people suggest that dp doesn't frighten them,I think they are way stronger than me or don't have the same variety.

Sorry to digress.

Ben LOL why don't you say what you really think.........seriously I don't want your penis but you crack me up.

I have to admit any therapist who suggested that I had penis envy would have me bolting out the door or window or any escape I could find.
IMO penis envy is so damn ridiculas not to mention sexist.

How come men never envy menstruation,giving birth or breast feeding?

As for some therapists being obsessed with sex.
The first guy I ever went to seemed more than keen to hear the details of my sexual fantasies.I never told him no matter how much he pried.
I figured for that sort of information.............he should pay me LOL.


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## Ben (Apr 21, 2005)

I understand the importance of the subconscious and that being brought up from psychoanalysis, but - geez (penis) come on - I just don't think (penis) it has an overwhelming place in the (penis) world today and to be honest with you (penis), I think that spending an overwhelming amount of time being concerned about (penis) what a particular symbol or thought means as opposed to simply realizing that (penis) it may mean something, and then moving on to (penis) the result of your (penis) thoughts is unconstructive. I think too much psychoanalysis (penis) clouds the reality of a problem - a (penis) problem that exists in the world today needs a (penis) constructive answer; something which Freud (penis) can't provide.

Dreams are an interesting (penis) side-effect of psychoanalysis, but I fear that, again too much concern can be given to understanding the meaning of dreams as opposed to simply looking at how you interact in the world. So you dream about (penis) various different oddly shaped (penis) archetypes, who cares? How does that effect your (penis) world and your (penis) place in it? You may gain a lot of insight into your (penis), but no real solution.

A large (penis) problem deserves solutions. And my question to you is this: did you really pay any attention to what I was saying or were your preoccupied with (penis) something else? What do you think you're paying for when you see a psychoanalyst? Solutions or (penis) insight? Any Tom, Dick (penis) and Harry (penis) can give you insight, but not all can give you your money's worth in answers that solve the difficulties of your existence.


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## Guest (May 30, 2005)

--


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## Ben (Apr 21, 2005)

Because the theories were developed years ago - when all men thought women wanted to me a man.


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## Guest (May 30, 2005)

Ben, that was hilarious! LOL

Wendy wrote:


> Why is there not such a thing as 'vagina envy' btw anyway?


I don't think it's a matter of "lesser" status - just if you can't SEE it (easily) it's a non-issue, grin

Also, in all seriousness, there IS a kind of vagina envy, for sure. And plenty of fear surrounding precisely what goes on inside there for young men. Also, an idolatry of sorts - obsessions with IT, to the exclusion of being able to actually "see" the woman who houses it.

I'm done now.
Leaving the building.
LOL,
J


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

that whole penis envy personality describes me to a "t"...whenever i get to dating a guy I get so uncomfortable about appearing too masculine or something...i decide that I need to attract him through covert ways of looks and such. And i become submissive.

I'm sure this is a microcosm for other areas of my life too. I often dumb myself down, depending on where I'm going I will focus more on looks than I do on my actual performance...

I dunno. I really do feel that sometimes...like I have to explain stuff to people and such...and I then get sucked into it...feeling below them and such..b.ecause in some way i'm letting them control me! so important is their approval I become a different, dumber person to win it.


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## Ben (Apr 21, 2005)

Person3,

What you described is something I've noticed in many women my age - so you're not alone. I see a lot of women fighting with this kind of thing, that is, trying to "dumb" themselves down a bit in order to maintain approval by a man in, what is unfortunately, still a male dominated world. I've known many women who went from intelligent, stable individuals to a basket of nerves and insecurity around a guy who displays the "alpha-male" persona; sometimes they tend to become submissive nuts to them.

I think it's natural for HUMANS to want approval from people - and given the yearning many have to look, act, and perform like those who are famous, I would say it's also human to want approval from those deemed as the leaders of our society. The Western society is very male dominated (as is most societies, unfortunately) and so women - being human - tend to look towards male approval as that is what has been socially deemed as the approval from the "leaders of our society". I really feel its true as many women tend to WANT, even DESIRE, approval and acceptance from a particular male - and the act of getting acceptance from their friends is finding a male that approves of them, too. Disgustingly, this appears to be the nature of our society as many guys who display this kind of alpha-male state are, well, dumb and totally unfit to provide much direction to anyone (let along the Western female which has been stripped of so much honor). What have we given women to strive for in this messed up society besides male acceptance? If a woman gets rich, then she's a money-grubbin' b*tch or a man-hater, if she sleeps with a bunch of guys, then she's a whore. I mean -honestly, what the hell!

I think every relationship has a dominate and a submissive in some areas - hopefully not all. Unfortunately, it tends to be that simpy because someone is male they get the role of dominant. I say unfortunate because, in the past, when I have let my girlfriend make a decision on our behalf - it actually turned out to be the better decision. I think women, in a lot of ways, are smarter than men, so, when it comes to some decisions - its just plain stupid to let a male always decide. I talked to a pastor one time about this (I'm not religious), and he said that a marriage works better when the man makes the decision and the woman follows - I called that idea rediculous (which he didn't like, but I didn't care) and I reminded him that women have brains too. All he could throw at me were Bible verses.

I always believe it's best to realize that you don't NEED anyone's approval (or at least to be more judgmental of those whom you deem as worthy to judge you) - that you'll survive and live just fine without it, and really it doesn't make sense to need their approval for all things (or MOST things, for that matter). You're clearly VERY intelligent (and from what I can tell, also attractive), so you probably only believe you need approval, but you really don't.

What's interesting is that if you deny a male the opportunity to become the dominate, you'll often find they become insecure themselves and suddenly fall apart and, sometimes, want you even more (to prove their manhood). I hate saying this, but, really, humans are quite predictable. Why do you think men find a naked woman with a gun so sexy? Power.

Anyway, I hope I wasn't sounding preachy or pushy - but this kind of social dynamic has ALWAYS fascinated me. However - to call it penis envy is a bit off point here, you really don't want a penis.


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## Revelation_old (Aug 9, 2004)

Great thread lol


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## Guest (May 30, 2005)

Awesome thread.

Janine - you got anymore info on this 'envy' thing from the other perspective i.e. blokes being obsessed with a womans 'bits'


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## Guest (May 30, 2005)

Ben,you do realise that all of the women here at this point will be falling in love with you..............do you hug babies too? 

you are singing our anthem."I am woman, here me roar" lol

Has anybody else noticed how the Hollywood celebs are baby mad?I can't help but wonder if this is having an influence on women today.


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## Milan (May 29, 2005)

I think the penis topic got a little of the recovery track after Janine responded. Anyway I would like to get it back to on the rails with more questions on how to get better and out of this hell. I hope this will help people.

Janine thank you for your response - I have read it so many times I've lost count. I'm still unsure on how hiding from our feelings causes such strange states of mind. I must admit I'm thinking that I must be different and that not facing my feelings is not the root of these experiences. I might think differently if I have gone through your recovery process and sitting peacefully on the other side with a clear mind. I must confess that there were many life changing events in our lives about two months before I got this disorder, the major one being losing many $100k in a poor real estate deal which we are still suffering from. During that time I wasn't sleeping well and that's when I decided to do the meditation retreat to help me relax - bad mistake.

I'll give you an example of how a real life symptom manifests itself and I would like you to make any suggestions if you could.

When engaged in conversation you might find yourself doing the dehumanising thing that you mentioned in your book where you notice people from that weird perspective where everyone suddenly looks different and strange. How do you keep going on when the subject is right in front of you and your feeling very strange and scared of the sensations and feelings your having? How do you force yourself not to experience that. I generally ride it through trying not to gaze directly at the person whilst trying to keep the fear at bay. Did you ever experience that and how did you handle it?

I also notice that in those odd moments where I approach clarity or what I call my normal self my mind seems to recoil bringing me back into a more fearful state as if it's trying protect me from my old self by being in an ever vigilant fearful state. I think I may be afraid that if I feel my normal self the fall back into the pit is further and scarier so it's better to stay in the 'ready to attack', fearful state. Again have you ever experienced that and how did you handle it?

One final thing I would like to mention. Enlightenment. Before this happened I was reading non-duality books by western authors such as Tony Parsons, Leo Hartong, Nathan Gill etc. and I think this also confused the mater. At fist I thought this was the precursor for self realisation and that's the reason for the fear. I have a friend who has had first hand experience and he believed that was happening to me but the when I explained my symptoms he could not totally relate. Even now I sometimes believe that it still may be the case, especially when the authors talk about the self/ego as an illusion, free will as an illusion, talk about being the watcher of the human experience not the doer and that there are no individuals - there is simply consciousness and nothing else, all is unity. This is probably the worst stuff I could have read before this happened but I did and I still ponder on these things (I don't read this stuff anymore, doctors orders). I suppose the only thing to do is to accept it and if there is self realisation so be it . They actually talk about that once there is realisation there is no fear because there is no one to experience the fear, fear simply is. A paradox like this disorder.

Waiting to hear your reply Janine.

Milan


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## rainboteers (Apr 5, 2005)

nevermind... sorry


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## Sojourner (May 21, 2005)

I couldn't say it any better myself, rainbow....


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## dakotajo (Aug 10, 2004)

Penis Envy: In psychoanalytic thought, the desire of girls to possess a penis and therefore have the power that being a male represents. Nowadays, the penis is much deflated in value by girls, and has been replaced by credit cards, a college education, and the vote.


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## Guest (May 31, 2005)

--


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## kchendrix (Feb 28, 2005)

Milan... What you have written I could have written. I am currious how when things are looking odd., or You question if you are real or not, how you stop.... Good questions!


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## Guest (May 31, 2005)

Okay this thread is hilarious.............Ben you have a great sense of humor.

Janine thanks for your replies you write so well and give us all GREAT HOPE. One question. When you said do not examine "self" does that mean when a wave of dp/dr hits to stay busy and distract your thoughts. To not question them i.e. what is this, am I going crazy, what is happening to me etc...???

Thanks,
xo
Sassy


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## person3 (Aug 10, 2004)

dakotajo:

well of course. there is WAY more you can do with a credit card than a stupid bodily organ.



anyway ben, thank you for that response. very well put. i'm kind of pissed off i became submissive to the last person i dated, should have snapped him in half for fuck 's sake.

anyway, i was going to add more but maybe later...


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## Ben (Apr 21, 2005)

person3,

Given the fact that I'm kind of interested in this topic anyway, please do add more some time and let me hear your side to these things (if for no other reason, it will help me understand you more and the female perspective on this thing).

Feel free to PM me if you are uncomfortable posting (though, I doubt you are). I would just be interested in learning from you on this matter (or just letting you vent).


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## Milan (May 29, 2005)

KChendrix

I still don't know how to control this thing. Distraction and focusing on other thoughts and trying to get back into the task I was doing seems to work but the fear is usually strong and stays for a while. Also looking forward to a future event where there is security helps a bit, like going home to see my wife and child. I must admit I don't normally question if I am real because for what ever reason this dosn't bother me. I feel like I exist but being/existing seems strange/odd when when I have these weird senstaions and that scares the hell our of me. It's probably because your view of self and how you fit into reality loses ground and the mind fears this as if it were to perish. I wish I had more to say but that's why I'm hoping Janine might have some extra input.

Janine are you out there? Could you please answer the questions I asked in my last post. I really appreciate your help.

One more thing I wrote the two following rules on a peice of paper that I got from Janines initail post and I carry this around to remind me when I start feeling the symptoms. Maybe you guys should do the same:

1. DO NOT examine your thoughts or senstations
2. FORCE your attention totally away from yourself and your symptoms


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## kchendrix (Feb 28, 2005)

I just got home from my psychologist, and I have to say , JANINE YOU ARE RIGHT.... It may be only a first burst of reality and maybe just maybe I will loose it again.. but it can be found........and how did this happen....

My psych said,, you know we need to stop talking about the symptoms, lets talk about your relationship with your family.......

I kept working my way back to the symptoms,,,, He said no we are not talking about the symptoms any more...

We talked about some different aspects of some of my relationships, and what I really really felt...

5 min before the session was up he said... how are your symptoms... I said I wasn't even thinking about it ... he said do you see what a distraction your symptoms are to finding out the truth about how your feel, they are a cover up for stuff you don't want to deal with.

You know what....All the drive home I was smiling and laughing and enjoying the sunshine like I haven't in months..... Now I know there is a lot of work to be done,,,, BUT THERE IS NOW HOPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2005)

I feel like a split personality (I've got a myriad of possible suggestions and advice re: the questions here and simultaneously some very impressive one liners for B&B Chick, Wendy ? it don?t stand for ?bed and breakfast" folks, lol)

Okay.

Priorities, people ...please. (but do note: the three"p" words in keeping with penis alliteration theme ? sorry, Wendy, but ?penis? is just a _funnier _word, grin)

Here?s the honest to God?s truth about HOW to distract yourself: it?s hell. It?s the hardest thing you will EVER try to do, and it will not get any easier a day, three days, four weeks, two months into it. And the even worse news is that there are no ?techniques? that I can offer that are universal.

The best guideline I can give is this:
Imagine you were (not dp, but when you were well) trying to cross a very flimsy rope bridge HIGH above a scary bunch of jagged rocks. Your life is at stake, you MUST cross the bridge, but every time you start to put one foot down and begin, you freak out. ?It?s too shakey! I?m terrified! I am afraid I?ll get halfway out there and freeze like a cat up a tree! I keep thinking about how high up I am and how weak the bridge is and I feel myself putting one foot in front of the other and it?s like I?m leaving my own body, I can SEE the fall?.I keep picturing myself plummeting down?I CAN?T DO THIS!?

Bottom line: you MUST do it. You must cross the bridge. Now clearly you have established that you CANNOT make yourself do this while looking down at the long fall. You also cannot make yourself do it by imagining yourself ahead of time,?you can?t ?picture? yourself doing it without also picturing yourself falling. You have GOT TO FIND SOME WAY inside your brain to DO it without thinking about it while you do it.

That sounds utterly ridiculous. But if you really seriously imagine the little scenario, you?ll realize that it is precisely how you would have to do it. You could think of ANYthing else besides your own body in space while you crossed. You would, of course, fail from second to second, and your mind would go immediately to the long fall, the danger the terror, etc?but you would HAVE TO force your attention AWAY from what you were actually doing in order to stand a chance of continuing.

Really process the example in your mind. And that will give you SOME kind of a ?hook? as to how/where/what inside your own thinking process has to shift when you?re trying to distract yourself from being AWARE of yourself in the depths of dp and dr.

Make any sense?

And I was TERRIBLE at this. It?s not like I am some Distraction Master, lol?.I was awful. But I had enough of a taste of it WORKING, slowly and in time, just like the wonderful example in the post above by kevitch (or whatever the poor fellow?s name is, lol?sorry!) And I kept at it. I FORCED myself to turn all attention away from my experience ? away from monitoring the experience while I was feeling it ? just like walking across the terrifying bridge.

And you're also correct that talking about the symptoms over and over in therapy is a total waste of time and money. Work on ANYthing else about yourself...any other issues you can dredge up. The symptoms are there for a reason, not for their own sake. Solve the riddles about the REST of you and symptoms become obsolete.

Helpful at all? Hope so!


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2005)

Also, Milan...one trap I fell into over and over again was that I felt like I NEEDED to be aware of my fear to somehow prevent the whole horror show from getting worse. It seemed (wrongly) that if I "forgot" to be terrified second by second, then it would all get worse. TOTALLY false. But it feels correct. Another feeling to ignore/fight when possible.

And this: COnversely, you do not need to talk yourself OUT of being afraid. NO halfway sane person could convince themselves on the spot not to feel terror. You can HAVE the fear and still not stare at it. You can feel fear and still not measure it second by second. You can be at the effect of fear and still not hug it. If it's there, it's there. But don't watch it as if watching it DOES anything (because it only makes it worse)

and you wrote:


> How do you keep going on when the subject is right in front of you and your feeling very strange and scared of the sensations and feelings your having? How do you force yourself not to experience that. I generally ride it through trying not to gaze directly at the person whilst trying to keep the fear at bay


You're totally right. And yes, I definitely had that OFTEN. There are no wonderful answers...you simply do the best you can. If you can stay there and keep talking, do it. If you freak out, make up some flimsey lie and run away. Do what you need to do to cope - but do NOT then spend time and energy examining the event once it's over. MOVE FORWARD. You survived it, period. Do not monitor it or relive it or explore it in the interest of "self-knowledge" or efforts at future control. It will NOT help. More of the same trap


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## Milan (May 29, 2005)

Thanks Janine,

This is the juice I need to hear to keep on going. A lot of the time people on these sites (me included) seem to really focus on the symptoms because they are so bloody luring, they seduce you in such a horrific way. How many times do I test the waters thinking that if I have that experience again and understand it I'll finally get out of this mess. I will conquer this beast by understanding it. But you can't! It never has worked! And do you think you learn from that..no straight back into the analysing and trying to understand the experience and bang it consumes you again.

The first time I got through this thing (before the relapse) I just went on with life whilst thinking it would never go away, but it did and that was with no meds and psychs. I remember walking into the lounge room and I saw a journal that I was keeping at the time with dust on it. I remember thinking 'wow what was that weird experience, I'm glad it's gone' and I couldn't comprehend even having it. OK Janine thanks for your posts. I'll keep trying and failing, trying and failing until one day I'll notice that the feelings have diminished.

Kind Regards

Milan


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## sming (May 7, 2005)

what a cool thread, I wish I could conjure up a witty/insightful reply. Alas all I can add is that I frequently read this site and feel shedloads better, simply because you guys&gals are going through the same grim experience. Well, not the penis envy elements since I have one and having two would be just a bit weird :shock:

I know exactly what you're saying Milan&Janine in that the more you try to prepare for DR, the more you invite it. It's occurred to me on many occasions that the best defence is no defence at all and that worrying about defence (i.e. "I'll do X when it starts", "I'll think of Y when Z happens") is at the very heart of DR. That's how it all started for me 10 years ago, anyway. I spent 4 months obsessionally practicing what to think should I bump into my ex girlfriend. Before I knew it, I'd set the pieces in motion and screwed myself royally.

Sadly, even embracing the "no defence" approach, the "force yourself not to focus on it" approach and the "drink alcohol 'til you can't think" approach, I've yet to find a way out of this quagmire. I sit at work with a S.A.D. stylee daylight lamp on my desk and a sun visor on my head, looking like a bit of a prat knowing deep down that these items are of little consequence. I've done REBT, CAT and CBT for years and am learning ACT. Such is the power of DR, I hold little hope that ACT will help any more than the other two, as others have found.

So, preparation or not, meds or not, FUBAR_Therapy or not, tomorrow may be a fat bunch of arse like today, or it might be OK. I have no way of telling.

At least I try and at least I have some OK days, I suppose.

MAY THE FARCE BE WITH YOU,
Pedr


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## Ben (Apr 21, 2005)

> Do not monitor it or relive it or explore it in the interest of "self-knowledge" or efforts at future control. It will NOT help. More of the same trap


Ah yeah, the great paradox of the disorder. Reminds me of a song by .38 special:

_Just Hold On Loosely, but don't let go 
If you cling to tightly, 
you're gonna lose control_

The reason is quite simple, I believe, and it's because there really IS no answer to some of the things you might ask yourself when in the DP state. Sit back and try to imagine a physical dimension outside of length,width and height - or ask yourself to imagine a new color (one you've never seen before). You've hit the boundaries of what your mind is capable of so let it go or, at least, hold on loosely.


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## gem (Aug 10, 2004)

Milan, I have suffered with dp/dr a long time and I know that this illness effects every part of us. It holds on and sometimes it feels like it has a mind of it's own. I believe there is nothing worse than fear. It is crippling, it holds you in a grip and only let's go when you are able go with the fear. Fighting the fear makes it worse. It is like being in a tornado, it sweeps you up, tosses you around and when it feels you have had enough it let's you down, and sadly you never know where you are going to land. I know, honestly there was a time I thought I would just die from fright. Panick attacks were endless, I felt like I would go insane. Then one day I decided instead of fighting with fear I would try to learn to live with fear. Learn to float through the awful symptoms that anxiety and fear bring. I had to work extremely hard to do this, but I can honestly say I did it. I am not saying that I am no longer afraid all the time but I can say I have learned to accept that my mind goes through periods of fright and I have been able to say to myself okay here we go again, I am definately frightened but it has happened many times before and I will get through this, it takes time and it takes hard work but I am so much better today. There was a time I could not even go out my front door. You have to look into the face of fear and remember that one may not be able to be free of fear but you can learn to float through.

gem.


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## kchendrix (Feb 28, 2005)

What is the mechanism that stuck us here in the first place,, I guess from what I learned the other day it is hidden emotional things.

My greatest fear isn't necessarily how things look strange ,but the feeling of being unreal,,, I even have this question, obsessive question that comes up ,, Am I real.... Why would I even think that, or better yet why can't I stop thinking about that question?


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