# Depersonalization and enlightenment??



## Ryan432 (Jun 23, 2011)

I was reading 'The Book of Secrets" by Osho today and about 20 pages in I came across this excerpt that describes very closely what I feel during DP... Its describing the indications of tantra (non sexual) when it successfully is leading you towards enlightenment...

"There are indications. One, you begin to feel a different identity within you. You are no more the same. Immediately you are a different person, that is the first indication. So if you begin to feel strange about yourself, know that something is happening to you. Its as if you transported / transformed into a different person. Suddenly it happens, you look at the world in a different way. The eyes are the same, but the looker behind them is different.

Secondly, all that creates tensions, conflicts, starts dropping. Its not after practice for years, immediately they start dropping. You can feel an aliveness coming to you, you are being unburdened. You will begin to feel that gravity has become reversed. Now the earth is not pulling you down. Rather, the sky is pulling you up. Gravity becomes meaningless. Its as if you have no weight. This is to make you available for the upward pull.

Thirdly, everything you do will be different. You will walk in a different way, sit in a different way, and eat in a different way. This difference you will feel everywhere. Sometimes this strange experience of being different creates fear. One wants to go back again and be the same, because one was so attuned with the old. It was a routine world, even boring, but you were efficient in it. Now everywhere you will feel a gap. You will feel that your efficiency is lost. You will feel that your utility is reduced. You will feel that everywhere you are an outsider. One has to pass through this period. You will become attuned again. You have changed, not the world, so you will not fit in. You will become unfit. Everywhere something will feel loose, like a bolt is missing. You will feel like everywhere has been hit by an earthquake. And everything has remained the same, only you, you have become different. But you will be attuned again on a different plane, on a higher plane. You may not have expected that I would say these things. You may have expected that I would say you would become more silent, more quiet, and I am saying quite the contrary. You will become more disturbed. Silence will come later. And if the silence comes first and there is no disturbance, know that no growth has taken place and youve simply adjusted to the old pattern."

Sorry that was so long ... and i had to type that all from the book lol ... but when i read that it really sounds like how i feel.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2011)

There are many threads on this forum of the same nature. Here are some of them:

http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/26254-dp-is-enlightenment/
http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/7123-whats-the-difference-from-enlightenment/
http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28021-dp-a-mistake-or-a-means-of-insight/
http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/24916-dpd-v-enlightenment/


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2011)

Damn, it's like the "Secondly" paragraph is describing how we might feel _when_ we do recover. Can't wait. I'm definitely gonna keep a look out for this book. Thanks for sharing!


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2011)

Dp is not enlightenment. It's more close to the opposite. Enlightenment is a state you develop consciously, and the only reason you don't go back to yourself is because you don't want to do that, because you're peaceful where you are. You're empty, and you love it.

In DP, you're FULL. Full of emotions, trapped. You're not in DP because you love it, you want to get rid of it.

In enlightenment you don't feel like yourself because you believe in what buddhists believe, and you "diminish your ego" (stupidness IMO).

In DP, you don't feel like yourself because you're disconnected from your feelings.


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## noname (Sep 23, 2008)

I dont have read many on this, but the enlightment buddhist speak about is similar to DP ("living with no center", ect)...At a time I was having a little interest for this and from stuff ive read I was 70% sure they was speaking about DP when speaking about enlightement. This is supported wis the fact some paper say DP can be "meditation throwed".

Imagine a culture where DP is accepted as a way of life, an ideal to attain in order to be connected to some divinity or some ideal way of being ?
Our culture of work, stress and never ending stream of concret tiny robotic quick dumbass task make the dp inacceptable for individual, but in a culture where its see as enlightment ? where something can be builded on this state ? 
If dp is the intrinsic state for suddenly being connected to the divin ?

I dont see this impossible.


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## noname (Sep 23, 2008)

Just before I was giving some volatile thinking.

but,



> "There are indications. One, you begin to feel a different identity within you. You are no more the same. Immediately you are a different person, that is the first indication. So if you begin to feel strange about yourself, know that something is happening to you. Its as if you transported / transformed into a different person. Suddenly it happens, you look at the world in a different way. The eyes are the same, but the looker behind them is different.
> 
> Secondly, all that creates tensions, conflicts, starts dropping. Its not after practice for years, immediately they start dropping. You can feel an aliveness coming to you, you are being unburdened. You will begin to feel that gravity has become reversed. Now the earth is not pulling you down. Rather, the sky is pulling you up. Gravity becomes meaningless. Its as if you have no weight. This is to make you available for the upward pull.
> 
> Thirdly, everything you do will be different. You will walk in a different way, sit in a different way, and eat in a different way. This difference you will feel everywhere. Sometimes this strange experience of being different creates fear. One wants to go back again and be the same, because one was so attuned with the old. It was a routine world, even boring, but you were efficient in it. Now everywhere you will feel a gap. You will feel that your efficiency is lost. You will feel that your utility is reduced. You will feel that everywhere you are an outsider. One has to pass through this period. You will become attuned again. You have changed, not the world, so you will not fit in. You will become unfit. Everywhere something will feel loose, like a bolt is missing. You will feel like everywhere has been hit by an earthquake. And everything has remained the same, only you, you have become different. But you will be attuned again on a different plane, on a higher plane. You may not have expected that I would say these things. You may have expected that I would say you would become more silent, more quiet, and I am saying quite the contrary. You will become more disturbed. Silence will come later. And if the silence comes first and there is no disturbance, know that no growth has taken place and youve simply adjusted to the old pattern."


Whats the point here ? im not sure to understand. What the f*** they speak about ? An enlighment ? What is the conclusion following this paragraph ? Cause the autor seem not to consider only one good side about being enlighted this way. You was reading an anti enlightment book ?


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## crystal13 (Jun 19, 2011)

Osho mentions this 'feeling of coming alive', and 'tensions,conflicts dropping'. As long as one is not experiencing this, one experiences something different from, what Osho means here.
Mind you, Osho liked to say things which confused people all the time. He did that on purpose, so that his listeners had to learn to think for themselves.He also threw jokes in between a lot, so that his listeners were reminded to step out of all the drama and seriousness regularly.

Osho also described a state in which 'one is wrapped up within oneself, talks to himself and doesn't need anyone else, for his whole world consists of himself', and says that one is 'ripe for a mental insitution then.'So it is whatver appeals to you, really.

What Osho means in the quoted excerpt from 'The book of secrets' is what happens when you discover that you are master over your feelings, thoughts and emotions: a shift takes place, you realize that there is a living 'you'inside you who is no slave to any drag of the mind/emotions, but a living observer, stronger than any of these disturbances. Then you suddenly find out who is the boss: it's the one beyond your ego, living inside you. It's actually a quite natural feeling. It's the feeling of owning yourself, owning your experiences instead of they owning you, and then seeing that life is not ruling you but you are ruling life. And it's more than that.

It is true that many of Osho's followers have learnt to understand this (as they say in Poona: they 'pop'). It can be a disturbing process ( but not necessarily ) and it does turn everything around, and it's real. The outcome is in any case a beautiful and balanced person. I have met people who have gone through this process themselves and they described it to me.

It is not the same as DP. DP is very unpleasant and somehow you know something is wrong.In the awakening process, things get turned around but you know for sure that it is right, perhaps more right than ever before. It feels healthy. DP does not feel healthy.

So in waking up there is alertness, being more 'aware' (mindful) and you're a living, very present spectator. DP does not feel like that.

You know best for yourself what is going on.


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## Quarter Pounder (Jun 17, 2011)

Don't lie to yourself man, DP is the complete opposite to enlightenment.


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## noname (Sep 23, 2008)

Its just a cultural point of view...
I dont see this as an enlightment with my cultural background, but im open to the possibility some perhaps look for it...


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## cris24333 (Oct 30, 2010)

there not the same.


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## crystal13 (Jun 19, 2011)

noname said:


> Its just a cultural point of view...
> I dont see this as an enlightment with my cultural background, but im open to the possibility some perhaps look for it...


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## crystal13 (Jun 19, 2011)

The thing which brought me closest to enlightenment than anything else, was Qi Gong.
I have to add that in that time, I lived a healthy lifestyle too, you know, no nicotine, caffeïne, alcohol but lots of healthy food & excercise. I also had nothing to worry about, regarding money, social environment or the like.

On the "Linden method"- site , Qi Gong is also being recommended as helpful with DR. But I have mixed feelings about this: I think it is not good when one is sitting at home wrapped up in one's depression already. I do believe that Qi Gong may be very helpful in overcoming DP, BUT FIRST restore a healthy connection with the world and a healthier lifestyle. When the fundament is in place, then the more spiritual/physicalside of healing can be added, in my opinion, and the bonus in this case is a freeway to better health ánd to enlightenment.
I know Qi Gong is a wonderful health-and healing tool , as well as a way for Westerners to reach enlightenment, as through consistent practise one opens up the meridians in the body.

For example: a blocked bladder-meridian can cause fears and schizophrenia-symptoms. This meridian runs from the bladder through the spine up into the brain. 
Fear and fearful thoughts cause blockage in the system. Through learning to quiet the mind and concentrate on certain, well-researched excercises as are practised in Qi Gong,overtime the blockages go away and the energy runs more and more smoothly through the system.
A key to all this is,learning to relax the entire mind and body.
This is obviously very beneficial for health and energy level, and also it promotes enlightenment.

In my own experience this is only possible when one also lives a healthy lifestyle -diet, no toxic substances and no toxic behaviour.
When I practised my Qi Gong, I had done a lot of work before, regarding learning to live healthy and to become a more balanced human being.

Through ignorance on my part I made some mistakes on the path which proved to be not good for the health, I won't go into that too much now: I left my home for a number of years and lived a chaotic lifestyle, I did not live very healthily, and did not practise anything like meditation or Qi Gong. I haven't been practising for years now and do miss it, but I have to restore a normal lifestyle first. 
I had certainly not learnt enough about disciplining the mind and listened to my emotions way too much. So I have been irresponsible and immature. 
Now I am off the path and have DP.

As the Chinese say, 'If you want to shoot high, stand low' so I think ,for myself, before even considering the whole enlightenment-thing, all causes for phenomena like DP or any other imbalance need to be eliminated from one's life. A strong foundation needs to be built first.


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## DiscoStick (Dec 13, 2009)

If this is enlightenment, then enlightenment sucks.


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## crystal13 (Jun 19, 2011)

DiscoStick said:


> If this is enlightenment, then enlightenment sucks.


Hello DiscoStick;
thanks for your reply; I don't really understand what you mean, though. If you could be a bit more specific I'd appreciate it very much.

There are different paths to enlightenment and not every path suits just everyone. Some feel best with the path of cleansing, of disciplin, meditation and excercise. Some feel best with mindfulness. Some prefer the Osho way. Some just go to an Advaita Vedanta satsang a few times and get it. Or listen to, f.e., Byron Katie. Some read a book. Some have to go through their deepest pains (that dóes suck). Whatever someone's path is, enlightenment is great. And whatever your path (or no path) is, it always has to do with freedom and being present in the present moment.

(Enlightenment also does not necessarily mean having to live like a saint. I know a Zen master who swears like a boatsman in about every sentence she utters.)

With greetings


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## DiscoStick (Dec 13, 2009)

Some of the problems I have with this idea are as follows:

It has to do with being present in the present moment? I don't feel present in the present moment. Isn't that the whole nature of DP? Not feeling there?

And being at one with the world? I feel like one against the world.

I participate in the most self-indulgent activities. Isn't 'enlightenment' about a detachment from desires? I desire as many cheap thrills as I can get to connect me to this world.

What part does being depressed have in enlightenment? Or being anxious?

If I were connected to the divine, then I would be among the most wise. and if I were wise and connected to the divine, then I wouldn't have made this list. Checkmate.

No. This is not enlightenment for me. If you think it's enlightenment for you guys, then congratulations. Surely your enlightened state can see that most people who suffer from this wish that they could just get on with their lives like every other person and not be lectured about how they're holy when they know they're not. When I was a kid and sick in hospital, I found it insanely patronising when people told me that I was special and brave. No. I was ill. I was a normal andscared kid, but I was ill. And this is the same. We are _normal_ people. Most of us are probably just your average hedonistic asshole. We're just a bit ill.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2011)

DiscoStick said:


> It has to do with being present in the present moment? I don't feel present in the present moment. Isn't that the whole nature of DP? Not feeling there?


exactly. it's the opposite.

anyway, I don't believe in "enlightenment", I think it's just another way of saying "loving yourself" or "being calm and controlled" or "being totally yourself".


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2011)

No, this is NOT enlightenment. There is such a misconception of what this means. All it means is to throw away all external trappings, value on material things, and come to Mindfulness which is the "gray area" between the extreme Rational and the extreme Emotional reactions to life. Find the middle ground, and know you are neither more nor less important than anyone else in the world, but that we all have value.

One cannot obtain this state with DP -- our obsessions, fears, perceptual distortions keep us from experiencing the joys of life, pure simple joys such as nature, love, the ability to care for others. It is not "loss of Ego, or self" but finding a "center" where you can view the world and life to your "personal best." That's it.

The simplest form of Buddhism is the basis for Marsha Linehan's Dialectical Behavioral Therapy which I have been practicing for several years.

Read the works of Thich Nhat Hahn, Vietnamese Zen Buddhist, who speaks of enlightenment. "The Miracle of Mindfulness" is a great place to start. Also, "No Death, No Fear."

Here is Hahn in a nutshell:

_*"I long to accomplish a great and noble task, but it is my chief duty to accomplish small tasks as if they were great and noble. We have to learn to live happily in the present moment, to touch the peace and joy that are available now."
~ Thich Nhat Hanh ~*_

That's it. And we even make these concepts complicated. Simply find a balance between emotion and reason, let go of a desire for fame, or fears of failure, or feelings of failure. These things are "false beliefs." Simple "BE" -- very difficult to do if you are DP/DR.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2011)

Dreamer* said:


> All it means is *to throw away* all external trappings, value on material things, and come to Mindfulness which is the "gray area" between the extreme Rational and the extreme Emotional reactions to life.


yes. first and most important is *"to throw away".* DP happens to you, without you choosing to feel this way.


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## BobbyG (Mar 3, 2012)

Enlightment is not the RECOGNITION of NO-SELF or NOTHINGNESS. It is the realization of your connection with GOD (child of God) and your individuality/unity with the Creator (God).


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## crystal13 (Jun 19, 2011)

BobbyG,

Thank you, yes, I agree.

Thich Nhat Hanh once said, (well, I guess they all say it) that one should be fully present in the moment. I can barely remember what this was like, but I remember it was good. (boy, do I sound stupid now.)
I wonder now if, being fully present and the recognition of connection with God and the God within, would be the same. 
I guess it does start with being present.
Thich Nhat Hanh also says, by the way, that without happiness, there is no enlightenment. -Nice, when the word happiness has not been in one's universe for a very long time.

-yes,such stupid questions as the one above,arise when one is in a DP-state for long enough.-

I think that DP can also be brought about by some forced attempt to achieve a state as the buddhists describe, non-attachment and so on.
But as DP is so hellish, I wonder what mechanism causes one to do such an obviously wrong thing. Reality becomes such a horror overtime this way, causing more and more trouble, that in the end one (this one at least) does not even want to be present anymore.

If being a child of God, then why do so many people around then so often treat me like shit?
If being a child of God, then why have I become feeling like a slave; of my own lack of money, and of government rules,and of what a nasty neighbourhood thinks of me?

Just sometimes a tiny question remains, what it would be like to be present again (scary, for one thing) and how to become present again.
And the recognition of anything Godlike seems to have become just something to laugh about bitterly, something so out of reach, that it makes (this) one wonder what's the point of living still altogether. Even the question, what is the way to (re-)recognize the connection with God, seems no longer applicable,even though it may be perhaps the most important question of all.

With regards, Crystal13


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