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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

so if you have read my supplement post then you should know that i believe one of the key contributers to my DP if not the biggest contributer of all, was low dopamine. you may also know that i have recovered other than the occasional episode of DR. well, for the past few days i have been trying out a new supplement that i have found so helpful and important that i felt it needed it's own thread. so keeping in mind the role dopamine plays in mine and likely many others DP, here is some information on the supplement NADH.

Clinical study confirms NADH has a direct, positive impact on rebuilding brain neurotransmitters. Production of the neurotransmitter dopamine is increased six-fold when taking NADH supplements.

Summary: A University of Paris research study proves that in brain tissue (neuron cell) cultures, the production of the brain neurotransmitters, such as dopamine, can be increased by adding NADH to the culture medium. The study's results showed that adding NADH yields a six-fold increase in the production of the neurotransmitter dopamine. It was also found coenzyme NADH stimulates the production of many different brain neurotransmitters, including dopamine, norepinephrine or noradrenaline, and serotonin.

Benefits of dopamine production: NADH stimulates dopamine production. Medical science has proven that increased dopamine production has a positive effect on the following brain functions: thinking, cognitive functions (like memory & decision making), sex drive, mood, drive, strength, coordination, movement, mobility and much more. Medical science has proven dopamine has a positive impact on growth hormone secretion. Growth hormone secretion is regarded as the key factor for the regeneration of cells and tissue. Increased dopamine production enhances the body's ability to repair or replace damage and wounded cells. Dopamine has been proven to reduce prolactin secretion, which is the cause of appetite. The higher the dopamine levels in the blood, the lower the appetite. It is believed that higher or normalized dopamine blood levels reduces "binge" eating.

Parkinsonian related neurotransmitters: In a double blind placebo controlled study performed at a German university hospital, Parkinsonian patients were treated with NADH or a placebo. The patients receiving NADH showed elevated levels of L-dopa and dopamine in the blood. Medical science has proven that Parkinson's disease occurs when the brain cells that produce dopamine die. All Parkinsonian patients in this German study who were taking NADH improved in their condition. (See the Parkinson's disease section for more information about NADH and Parkinson's disease.)

Definition of neurotransmitter: A neurotransmitter is the chemical that transmits information across the junction (synapse) that separates one nerve cell (neuron) from another nerve cell or a muscle. Neurotransmitters are stored in the end of the nerve cell's bulbous (also called axon). When an electrical impulse traveling along the nerve reaches the axon, a neurotransmitter is released. It travels across the synapse, either prompting or inhibiting continued impulses. There are more than 300 known neurotransmitters.

More types of neurotransmitters: Other university studies performed in France found that NADH stimulates not only the increase production of dopamine, but also norepinephrine in certain brain areas, by more than 40%. Norepinephrine, also known as noradrenaline mediates chemical communication in the sympathetic nervous system. The sympathetic nervous system functions in response to short-term stress and anxiety (the fight or flight response). Medical science has proven that norepinephrine mediates the heart rate, blood pressure, the rate of glycogen (glucose) conversion for energy, as well as and other physical benefits.

For the readers, who want it in scientific terms, Dopamine's protection against brain damage: In neuron cell cultures, dopamine production can be increased by adding NADH to the culture medium. In a dose dependent manner, NADH yields a six-fold increase production of dopamine. Furthermore, NADH stimulates tyrosine hydroxylase (TH), the key enzyme for the production of dopamine in a dosage dependent manner of up to 70%. The neurotransmitter dopamine undergoes what is called auto-oxidation. This process forms cytotoxic agents that may damage very sensitive areas in the basal brain. Research has found auto-oxidation occurs significantly more often in older individuals. A dopamine auto-oxidation inhibiting substance is useful in reducing damage to certain areas within the brain, by retarding cell death and tissue degeneration. An elevated NADH level results in a significant elevation of pyridine dinucleotide levels in the brain. The brain has an active uptake mechanism for the accumulation of nicotinamide through the choroid plexus, indicating this is an important functional role for brain metabolism and oxidative defense. Taken all these factors into account one can conclude that NADH has a protective affect on the brain.

Short summary, why NADH is so important: In addition to its primary role of producing energy, NADH triggers many vital chemical reactions inside the cell. After a lot of clinical research, we are sure that NADH: Acts as the driving force behind increasing energy production and all the benefits that enhanced energy brings. Increasing energy while reducing fatigue. 
Plays a key role in cell regulation with positive physical effects on blood pressure, cholesterol levels, sugar metabolism, heart rate and more. 
Plays a key role in DNA repair 
Plays a key role in the repairs to worn out, wounded or damaged cells. 
Stimulates & increases the capacity of the immune system to produce antibodies and fight foreign invaders & disease. 
It's the most potent biological antioxidant. Antioxidants in the body, such as beta carotene (a vitamin A precursor) vitamins C and D, and selenium -- prevent cell damage, and prevent a variety of diseases, like cancer. 
It increases the synthesis of certain neurotransmitters in the brain providing a positive physical effect on moods, memory retention, and learning. 
It increases the synthesis of other neurotransmitters known to be effective in beating chemical based: alcohol and drug addictions. 
It increases the synthesis of neurotransmitters in the brain known to be effective in correcting specific chemical imbalances. Some of these chemical imbalances are the physical causes of mental illness, anxiety, aggression, depression, despair and hopelessness.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2010)

So do you think that the drug Wellbutrin would have any positive effects on dp'rs since its a dopamine reputake inhibitor?


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

depernding on the persons cause and if dopamine is a factor in their case, then yes.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2010)

Tommygunz said:


> depernding on the persons cause and if dopamine is a factor in their case, then yes.


Sorry, I'm not trying to be argumentative but what you just said almost contradicts your original post about one of the greatest factors in dp being low dopamine. Since Wellbutrin is a dopamine reputake inhibitor wouldn't it essentially have the same effect as this suppliment, regardless of the cause of the dp? Because, as you said, low dopamine is a factor, not in some but in all cases.


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

nah, i meant mine and likely many others. although i know it for sure in my case, i can't be sure this is the case in all cases of DP. that and i don't technically agree with stopping the reuptake being as effective as increasing the production. sorry for any miscommunication.


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## jay2008 (Nov 6, 2007)

I'm starting to sway more towards this conclusion myself. I started taking Prozac a few days ago and, besides tons of negative side effects, zero initial improvement in my DR/DP. I know I need a month or more to see full effects but I don't have much confidence in Serotonin based drugs anymore. I've also tried Lexapro and Zoloft without any change in DR/DP.

I was initially scared to try Wellbutrin as I had read about seizures. Although it appears only in higher doses.

Has anyone tried Wellbutrin and had reduction in DP/DR?


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2010)

jamieinohio said:


> I'm starting to sway more towards this conclusion myself. I started taking Prozac a few days ago and, besides tons of negative side effects, zero initial improvement in my DR/DP. I know I need a month or more to see full effects but I don't have much confidence in Serotonin based drugs anymore. I've also tried Lexapro and Zoloft without any change in DR/DP.
> 
> I was initially scared to try Wellbutrin as I had read about seizures. Although it appears only in higher doses.
> 
> Has anyone tried Wellbutrin and had reduction in DP/DR?


My sister has largely recovered from dp by taking Wellbutrin, Abilify, and Xanax. She has rouge dp/dr but not chronic anymore. I have tried prozac, effexor, lamictal, buspar, neurontin, abilify, ativan and xanax and none of them have helped. The lamictal did help for about 5 days and then really bad stuff started happening. I feel like as far as any drugs go, a dopamine reputake inhibitor is my last resort.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2010)

Tommygunz said:


> nah, i meant mine and likely many others. although i know it for sure in my case, i can't be sure this is the case in all cases of DP. that and i don't technically agree with stopping the reuptake being as effective as increasing the production. sorry for any miscommunication.


Got cha.


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## G.i.t.s (Feb 13, 2010)

Thats not so simple to say. For first only because you have an lack of dopamine, an Dopmane reuptake inhibator doesnt have to work in encreasin the level of dopamine. The Problem is the autoneurons which determine the level of the neurotransmitters like dopamine. So if you have an above average amount of autoneurons, meds like SSRIs, DRIs and so on have no effect, because the body autoregulates the quantity of neurotransmitters by decreasin the self producted amount of neurotransmitters when you try encreasin the level of neurotransmitters artificial.

Because of that, meds like that have "no effect" on some people.
So the body of that people keeps the same level of neurotransmitters.

s + a = x.
s = amount of a self produced neurotransmitter 
a = amount of from outside induced neurotransmitter
x = the totally amount of an neurotransmitter in the body or brain

for persons with that autoregulation:
s depends on a
s = x - a
x - a + a = x
So x is independent from a
That means that independent how many neurotransmitters you get from "outside", the amount of that neurotransmitter in the body/brain will be the same.

And that means: only because you are getting an DRI or SSRi or whatever and having no positive effect, it doesnt mean that you have no lack in that neurotransmitter.

So wellbutrin (Bupropion) doesnt have to increase dopamine.

And one more thing. I have the self opinion like tommy, that dopamine plays a great role in DP/DR. At least for some cases. In mine too.


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## Minerva8979 (Jan 30, 2010)

I haven't been on this forum for weeks, yet minutes ago I had the urge to take a peak and ended up at this post. 
TommyGunz, I've read your posts before about the various supplements you've tested and recommend. This information you give us is so important. Even if these supplements don't help some people with the DP, the reminder of alternative medicine is hopeful and basically inspiring. That being said, I'm usually one to do my own research, but I was wondering what company you purchased the NADH supplement from. Also is NADH the same as Enada NADH?
-Thanks.


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

yes, that is the pattented controlled form of NADH created for consumption. the brand i have is source naturals, enada NADH.


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## opie37060 (Jan 9, 2010)

Tommygunz said:


> yes, that is the pattented controlled form of NADH created for consumption. the brand i have is source naturals, enada NADH.


Have you noticed any effects yet?? Is it helping?


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## Livingthenightmare (Jan 12, 2010)

opie37060 said:


> Have you noticed any effects yet?? Is it helping?


I'm guessing someone cured/almost cured would not make the best guinea pig. So who wants to try this now ?







I just bought a batch of supplements so perhaps someone else will volunteer ?


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

yeah i've had some improvements. also i want to make it known that even though i don't have DP/DR anymore i still haven't recovered 100%. something is still slightly off, but it's hard to determine or explain. i do attribute this slight off feeling to dopamine still being low though. that and i had quite a setback when i quit smoking, the stress from that really screwed with my head.

i felt the effect of the NADH after a few hours, it was pretty rad. just felt more comfortable in my skin and wasn't analizing myself, which are still issues i deal with, only on a much less intense level than they were with DP. in the last few days i have come very close to acheiving 100% recovery, and today i upped the dose from 5mg to 10mg which is the suggested amount for therapeutic use. i would love for someone with DP to try it out.


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## codeblue213 (Feb 15, 2010)

Hey Tommy, I gotta check on my own, but would you know off hand it I can take NADH with Klonopin and Lexapro?


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

so far there are no known drug interactions, but it hasn't been well studied. my advice would be to watch yourself carefully if you decide to take it.


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## Sarasi3 (Mar 4, 2010)

hmmm... hello everyone. i am a new member and the chemical side of DP is new to me. I have had DP for over 8 years and tried effexor for 1 1/2 years (the first years of the dp) is it possible that the effexor caused the lingering consistant DP? also I was wondering, if you think it may be possible to boost certain brain chemicals naturally through diet and maybe even through positive thought processes? i hear when you smile or feel good, endorphins are released etc. i know i sound like a raving hippi, but is there any truth behind my question? also, do you have to take anti-depressants to cure long term anxiety, or does anyone think that a psychologist may be a cure? i guess ebveryone is different. ha ha. thanks, from confused


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## easyreader (Jan 25, 2010)

you sure like messing with your brain chemistry. you might as well go on antidepressants.

did you ever think that constantly obsessing over these magic supplements just reaffirms the idea that you're "sick"?


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

easyreader, you are being very ignorant. i am very agitated by your posts. stop replying to my posts in a negative manor. if you want to learn a little bit about the things you have been commenting on in my threads then feel free to send me a message and i will tell you all that you want to know. for instance the fact that i am opposed to prescription strength medication, if you knew anything about me you would know that. that and every supplement i use is natural and helps your brain do what it is supposed to do, not change it's chemistry. also, why the hell have you targeted me for your negativety, what have i done to you?


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## S O L A R I S (Dec 24, 2009)

I was reading an article, when I came across this sentence which reminded me of your idea about dopamine being integral in DP, below is an abstract. It relates dissociation with attachment theory in childhood. 
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A number of empirical studies support the contention that individual (e.g., temperamental or neurological) variables exert minimal influence on attachment disorganization. However, a recent study challenged this conclusion, suggesting that genetic factors (an allele of the DRD4 gene) related to defective dopaminergic functions in the brain and reduced efficiency of attentional systems, may contribute to attachment disorganization.....

Liotti advanced the hypothesis that early disorganized attachment is the first step in many developmental pathways that (provided they include traumatic experiences during childhood and adolescence) progressively lead to increased vulnerability to dissociative disorders and to dissociative reactions to later traumas.

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You might be on to something my friend!!! I'll post the full article in the new article section.


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## Livingthenightmare (Jan 12, 2010)

I ended up ordering this thing. Will test when it arrives provided the batch of suplements that I just got doesn't kill me (they're made in China







).


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

HA, i would be so offended if i were chinese. lol.

hey solaris, thats pretty awesome. did you ever read this article? http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/19978-check-this-out/page__p__181475__fromsearch__1&#entry181475


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## Livingthenightmare (Jan 12, 2010)

Tommygunz said:


> HA, i would be so offended if i were chinese. lol.


They're worse than the americans exporting AIDS infected blood, they kill everybody indiscriminately with their poisoned medicines, including their own. And then when somebody points it out they say things like "sure some poison got into the medicine but who knows what killed those patients- could be anything, after all they were sick to begin with" just like tobacco companies Blah ...


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## guitarman (Dec 11, 2008)

Tommygunz said:


> also, why the hell have you targeted me for your negativety, what have i done to you?


You are a very positive person. That makes you the arch enemy of the very negative.


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## guitarman (Dec 11, 2008)

Doing some research I've found a little cause for concern in the following paragraph, followed by the source link. The fact that it could cause anxiety would make me very cautious about its use.



> NADH side effects, caution, risk
> Reports of NADH side effects from the use of 2.5 mg are rare. Higher dosages can sometimes lead to NADH side effects of insomnia, anxiety, fatigue, and overstimulation. George, a 42 year-old lawyer from Philadelphia says, "I like the 2.5 mg dose of NADH because of the alertness it provides. However, when I take 5 mg or more, it makes me too stimulated, almost with a panicky feeling." As more individuals start taking this nutrient, we may come across additional reports of NADH side effects. The risk of NADH side effects increase when this supplement is combined with other stimulants. A few patients have found that high dosages used daily for prolonged periods led to mood swings, anxiety, and sleeplessness which resolved when the NADH was stopped. Until we learn more about the long term side effect of NADH, I do not recommend its use on a daily basis for prolonged periods.
> One user noticed that NADH helped her chronic fatigue, but things didn't go well when she stopped. Betty, a 36 year-old homemaker from Houston, says, "I have chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) and was taking 10 mg of NADH daily. I know it really helped my energy level and mood. But I began to have stomach upset from it and stopped for a few days. I then fell quickly into a very bad CFS "crash," the worst one in months." I recommended that Betty only take 2.5 mg of NADH every other day. I don't think we should rely on one nutrient to solve CFS.


http://www.raysahelian.com/nadh.html


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## Livingthenightmare (Jan 12, 2010)

guitarman said:


> Doing some research I've found a little cause for concern in the following paragraph, followed by the source link. The fact that it could cause anxiety would make me very cautious about its use.
> 
> http://www.raysahelian.com/nadh.html


So you just take less or you stop taking it at once or gradually if you notice side effects you can't live with. We're not dealing with cocaine.


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## S O L A R I S (Dec 24, 2009)

I am very curious about this. Ive been to a variety of supplement stores, and whenever I ask for NADH they give me this odd look. Like I'm looking for crack or something lol. I dont think its available here


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## mezz (Sep 8, 2006)

Any success with this supplement?


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## Tommygunz (Sep 7, 2009)

i stopped taking it. it was making me feel overstimulated. i think i was taking too high of a dose, i was taking 5 mg a day. i should have been taking closer to 2.5 mg every other day. only problem is i can't find it in 2.5 mg and you can't break a 5 mg in half because it destabilizes it. so for now it's been postponed.


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## mezz (Sep 8, 2006)

Tommygunz said:


> i stopped taking it. it was making me feel overstimulated. i think i was taking too high of a dose, i was taking 5 mg a day. i should have been taking closer to 2.5 mg every other day. only problem is i can't find it in 2.5 mg and you can't break a 5 mg in half because it destabilizes it. so for now it's been postponed.


You could try a quarter of a sublingual 10mg tablet. Those don't destabilize like that?


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## mezz (Sep 8, 2006)

I've had about 25mg's today, sublingual.. didn't make me feel panicky or anything like that. Weird, I'm oversensitive to caffeine and other stimulants..

I'm feeling a bit better than yesterday and the day before that, it might be or might not be because of this. It's too early to say anything so I'll just keep on trying this supplement, I hope it helps..


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