# Attack on America caused by America



## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

I am not going to post much about this here because I don't have much time.

Hopefully some of you will look into this info more yourselves and then post what your educated opinion is about this.

Here are links about Bohemian Club and the Bohemian Grove a place where the leaders of the world get together once a year and worship Moloch a Ba'al God from long ago. Moloch was a God that the Cannonite people sacrifised their children to and now our world leaders are making mock sacrifices to this God Moloch although it now takes the form of an owl instead of a bull.


I am wondering what everyone thinks about this.

Why do you all think that their is no real investigation about what happened on 9/11 even though the familly members of the victims are begging for an investigation?

I don't like to get to involved in politics or anything because of my religious beliefs but I am wondering what the people around here on dpselfhelp think about what really happened on 9/11 and what is going to happen in the future.

Mahalo for any opinions about this.


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## +[ thedeadpoet ]+ (Jul 23, 2006)

As with anything of this nature, it cannot be proven but then again nor can it be disproved.

LOSTONE, don't you ever get tired of believing everything you read?


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

I don't want to argue about this but I have to bring attention to the irony of what you just said to me.

"LOSTONE, don't you ever get tired of believing everything you read?"

Is that what you said to me? :shock:

What was it that I posted in this thread anyway?

What I posted goes in oppisition to what you read in the papers everyday.

The cognitive dissonance in what you just said to me is totally amazing.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

thedeadpoet here is a book you should read just so you understand exactly how your mind is being controled.

http://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychol ... 0688128165

There are many other books like that one but "Influence" Is a pretty good sum up of how the media, sales people, corporations, religion and governments are able to easily mislead basically everyone.

When I started thinking about God and religion I started reading brainwashing books and psychology books just so I could prevent myself from being taken advantage of. The info I have learned is disturbing because I reallize now that most people on earth will basically believe anything they are told if they are told in the right way.

It is sad, but very true.

By the way the proof for what I posted is out in the open, it is not a theory anymore then the fact that Hitler set the reichstag fire would be considered a theory. The only diffrence is what is in our media.

And why can this not be disproven??????????????????

Maybe because there was never any investigation and never will be because all the evidence has been shipped off to China.

Interesting don't you think?

The bohemian grove is pinpointed on a map, go there yourself and you can see with your own eyes what is going on.

If you want proof just drive to this location and see it all for yourself Bohemian Grove is a 11 km?(2700-acre) campground located at 20601 Bohemian Ave, in Monte Rio, California[1]


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Personally I don't take anything any government tells me at face value. There is ALWAYS a hidden agenda.

I don't think 9/11 happened like they said it did. In fact I'm skeptical it was even terrorists that did it. The U.S. simply stood to gain too much from this whole thing for it to be a coincidence (and I don't believe in coincidences).

That said, we'll never know the whole truth about 9/11 just like we'll never know the whole truth about JFK.

As long as the people running our countries (I don't live in America btw) keep hiding behind concepts like "National Security" and believing that we shouldn't have the right to know what's going on on our own planet, we'll always be mushrooms.

For me one of the critical moments in the whole thing was when Bush was put on stand but refused to be signed in "in the interest of national security". If your presedent is flat out refusing to tell the truth then you've got good cause to be concerned.

Oh btw, try not to get too paranoid - its not quite time for the tinfoil hats :lol: View everything with an err of skepticism (doubt is healthy) and trust your own intuition.


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## widescreened (Jun 22, 2005)

LOSTONE, dont believe everything you read. Does this include the Bible??

Not attacking the Bible, just broadening the discussion.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> LOSTONE, dont believe everything you read. Does this include the Bible??


Whoa!

Using my psychic powers I think I can anticipate his answer, or rather to paraphrase:

"Yes, I do believe everything I read in the bible, except the bits I don't like - which I label either 'Historical context only' or 'Parable'."

Which always confuses me, because, as with any other instruction manual - like let's say, how to put up a IKEA shelf, if you miss bits out, skim through past the boring/unappetising bits, it's liable to fall to pieces. I am testament to this. But I guess it's understandable. There is absolutely no way a human being, even on the upper end of the intellectual piety scale, could possibly adhere to all the instructions and rules in the bible, or any other religious tome. I admire the attempt to wittle it down to ten commandments however. It seems that their god realised that we have limited capacity, and a sense of diminished responsibility, so he simplified it a bit.

If only the instruction manual for IKEA furniture had only ten isteps.

:twisted:


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

Ok I must clear something up that I did not fully clear up yet because this has taken the direction of religion.

The words "do not believe everything you read" are usually said so that people will stop reading instead of reading more  how very sad that fact is!

Now if you truely believe everything you read then you will just move with the masses and do what everyone else does and say what everyone else says. That is what is really involved in believing what you read. "believeing everything that you read" means that you only trust the headlines and that you never look deeply into matters for yourself.

In order to know any truth at all in this world you have to do personal investigation yourself. And when you find answers that you don't like then you can't just through them out because you don't like them (thats cognitive dissonance).

But the masses are not always totally wrong, but usually just half wrong because the truth is always right in front of everyone but it always comes with a spin and thats why people just say something like "don't believe everything you read" meaning "don't ever read anything except the headlines". Now that is doublethink http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink , it is simple, if we can't believe most of what we read then we need to "REED MORE!!!" why do people seem to be suggesting that we all read less. I will tell you why, it is because that is the road to stupidity and ignorance, the road most people are on.

The only way to find the truth is to "REED MORE" and not just toss out information only because you already have a premeditated idea of what the truth is. Truth means looking at all sides of the issue and getting the facts right. It does not mean throwing out half or all of the facts just because you don't like what the facts suggest.

Now see what the bible says for yourself. 
Never does it say to not search or to not look for truth. 
ALways the bible urges people to seek out the truth as if were a hidden treasure.

1 Co 2:9-16
*9 But just as it is written: ?Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, neither have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.? 10 For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God.

11 For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of man that is in him? So, too, no one has come to know the things of God, except the spirit of God. 12 Now we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God, that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by [the] spirit, as we combine spiritual [matters] with spiritual [words].

14 But a physical man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know [them], because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines indeed all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For ?who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, that he may instruct him?? But we do have the mind of Christ.*

Notice how it says that the spiritual man examines indeed all things!
If the bible were a lie then the bible would seek to limit knowledge not expand it.

I could put in many more scriptures like this but I will only add one more to show you what the bible teaches.

Mt 7:7,8
*7 ?Keep on asking, and it will be given YOU; keep on seeking, and YOU will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to YOU. 8 For everyone asking receives, and everyone seeking finds, and to everyone knocking it will be opened.*

The bible *never* says anything like "now that you have the truth, look no further" or anything like that, it always says over and over to keep looking and keep seeking more and more for the truth. This involves not just reading but it involves looking for truth everywhere.

This is part of how I know that the bible is truthful because most lies are told in way way that would keep people from seeking out any further knowledge. That is why for many years the Catholic religion would not allow people to even read the bible. Because a lie always seeks to limit knowledge and the truth always seeks to expand knowledge.

Believing that what the media says about 9/11 is the truth before you do your own homework is stupidity. Also believing that the bible is a book of lies before you have done your homework is also stupidity and ignorance.

As I said myself, before I ever started learning anything about God I went and learned about brainwashing psychology so that I could be able to see more easy what was a lie and what was the truth. I suggest everyone else would go and do the same thing.

why would I go and read up about psychology if I was not conserned about being mislead about the bible? I am very conserned about that and always will be. I always look up all the facts that I can in order to know for sure that what I put my beliefs in is actually the truth. All I ask is that you all do the same thing. Just do a little more searching please.

Whatever you believe is truth, I think it is wise for all of us to never stop seeking the truth because maybe we are overlooking something very important.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

Martinelv I just wanted to respond to something you said also.



> There is absolutely no way a human being, even on the upper end of the intellectual piety scale, could possibly adhere to all the instructions and rules in the bible, or any other religious tome.


This is the bibles answer to what you just said.

Micah 6:8 
8 He has told you, O earthling man, what is good. And what is Jehovah asking back from you but to exercise justice and to love kindness and to be modest in walking with your God?

Also

Mt 22:36-40
36 ?Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?? 37 He said to him: ??You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.? 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ?You must love your neighbor as yourself.? 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.?

What is so complicated about that?

Is love really that hard for you to understand Martinelv?

There are only two sides in life, Love and Evil.

I will take the side of Love no matter what anyone says.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

Some more proof

Building 7

Many people do not even know that 3 buildings, not 2 were demolished.


Remember it takes weeks to plan out the controlled demolition of any modern building anywhere.


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## widescreened (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi again LOSTONE. To quote the Bible is like quoting shifting sands

1 Because of translation, ie what is lost in translation from one language to another

2 Because of editing, and purposeful omition

3 Because of what has yet to be discovered in the desest from the Gnostics, or indeed, has been destroyed by time

Bla Bla. The Catholics knew the REAl truth, until the reformation. Then the protestant religions fragmented into dozens of sub Christian religions. It doesnt matter who or what you believe in, or how strongly ou believe in your faith to be the true path, in a short space of time, your belief system will again fragment over an issue relating to

Translation
Interpretation
The second comming, and those that deem Jesus to be for real or an imposter, false prophet, antichrist whatever.
Ad infinitum............

I was raised a Catholic, and know the dangers of black and white belief systems. It would bore and frustrate me to start to write on the above issues and develop them. I hope you find God, but if you deem one thing to be heritical, and your own belief system to be written in stone, get ready for disappointment. All it takes is time, short time for another slant on the same message.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

widescreened my religion is not set in stone and Jehovah's Witnesses don't view the babtizim as a baptizim toward any religion but instead it is something done as a dedication toward God.

Jehovah's Witnesses are not dedicated toward the Watchtower society because they are very aware that evil powers could get into even the governing body. They are dedicated toward God and toward Love and goodness.

Yeah the bible itself has shifted in may ways because of the evil acts of men but the main point of the bible is intact in all translations.

For me the most important thing about religion is that the religion does not take part in the evil that it says it is against.

The only orginized religion that I am aware of that takes no part in politics and war and is preaching throughout the world about the bible is the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I wonder why the bible was attacked in the first place in this thread because it was not the issue of this thread.

I don't really want to talk about religion here because this is not the right place. I only quoted the bible to show that the bible is not against expanding knowledge. No matter if you believe in the bible or not you should take note that the bible never says to limit your knowledge or anything like that. It always says to expand your knowledge and to do everything in your power to search out the truth.

widescreened what you said here has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.



> LOSTONE, dont believe everything you read. Does this include the Bible??
> 
> Not attacking the Bible, just broadening the discussion.


But since you asked the question I will say that it is true you should NOT believe the bible just because that is what is popular or because of the nice idea of a wonderful afterlife. What you should do is believe the bible based on facts that you look up for yourself. Nothing should be believed so quickly in this world that it limits looking for further proof of the truth.

People that believe in the bible should not stop looking or seeking for truth just because they belive they have already found it.

The main issue of this thread is about what our govenments are doing. 
My hope is that people might look a little more into the facts and not just attack an idea simply because they don't like it.

Personally I am a skeptic and I don't believe everything that I read and that is why I know I must read even more and do my own personal investigation of what is the truth because this world is full of lies.

Is it wise to be lazy and not read anything just because the world is full of lies? Maybe all of my opinions are wrong maybe I am being mislead but at least I am applying myself to figuring out what the truth really is. That is the most anyone can do.

The whole point of this thread is that I am looking for educated opinions or any information about 9/11. I want to know what people really think about this. I don't want to just hear something like "don't believe everything you read", that is a pointless statement.

If you believe everything that the media says then thats fine but I would like to hear why.

What do all of you believe about 9/11 and why do you believe what you believe?


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

LOSTONE said:


> There are only two sides in life, Love and Evil.


You got it half right - all there is in life is LOVE 

Also, the Bible is not exempt from having an agenda. In fact its a document that has possibly the most agenda in human history


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

CECIL I like what you just said.

It made me smile, something I don't do very often anymore.

" all there is in life is LOVE"

Actually in a way I totally agree with you because I believe that evil will one day end. And all life will exist in union with love.

Right now there is still a choice between love and evil but I do believe that soon there will only be love.

I also agree that the bible has an agenda but it is the only good agenda I can find.

By the way, thanks Cecil for your opinion in this thread because nobody else seems to care to state a real opinion about 9/11.


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## widescreened (Jun 22, 2005)

Lostone, yes there is an agenda to control people going on, George Orwell style. It has always been going on thru history, the control of people thru fear. It is different today by virtue only of the fact that technology has compressed time and space thru telecommunications, systems of travel etc etc. So yes is my answer, there is an agenda going on.

How do you expect to bring up a topic like this and expect to leave politics out of it??

I didnt bring the bible in to this, you did.

By the very fact that the powers that be on both sides are fundamentalists, the bible is very involved in morally justifying retribution.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

lostone said:


> What you should do is believe the bible based on facts that you look up for yourself. *Nothing should be believed so quickly in this world that it limits looking for further proof of the truth.*
> 
> People that believe in the bible should not stop looking or seeking for truth just because they belive they have already found it.
> 
> ...


Well, this is what I get involved with, foolishly, when it is late, I must get up early, and I can't fall asleep. :evil:

Firstly, as always, I have no clue how one can compare the Bible with the events of 9/11, but that's beside the point. I can't even come at that from any angle.

What I hate, hate, hate are conspiracy theories. I am a skeptic and I have a rather dim view of what a group of people is able to accomplish.

For instance my favorite quotation stolen from someone here: "Three people can keep a secret only if two of them are dead." -- Benjamin Franklin, lol. No truer words have been said. Hence, how in God's name could THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of people cover up the 9/11 disaster.

The logic is so ... impossible. This would mean that for instance every dead person from 9/11... people in the Towers, the planes, the pentagon, etc. are created, made up?

Oh, I'm not going to go into this... if you've been to ground zero ... when it was really "the hole", if you know people who survived and or died ... just regular everyday people you know personally, how could THEY be in on all of this as well?

Conspiracy theories like this are as whacky as any Fundamentalist movement of any kind. When we go to completely illogical extremes ... well, I don't really understand what's going on.

There are awful people in the world. There are stupid people. There are good people. Yes, there are many corrupt people.

If we know there are hundreds of wars going on in the world as we speak, civil and otherwise -- and I mean from Africa to the Middle East to ... name somewhere, are the genocides reported false or real? This gets into the whole "the Holocaust never happened" business.

My husband works for the Federal Government. He has for 30+ years. In all those years he has seen stupidity, incompetence, disorganization, mismanagement, etc. He says every day, if someone COULD carry out a conspiracy properly it would be a miracle, lol.

At this moment ... and he works for the very respectable Federal Trade Commission, the office has sent all the secretaries home as they aren't allowed to work more than 9-5, and he and the attorneys are again Xeroxing until midnight. Xeroxing. There is so much idiocy in government there is no time for conspiracies.

Yes, things are kept secret. Screw-ups, some things that are important to national security, corruption.

Oh dear God why am I writing this.

Choose to believe what you wish to believe.

There is no reasoning with someone who thinks this way. As it was in the Soviet Union, if a plane crashed (pilot error or mechanical) it was always considered a conspiracy as "planes simply don't crash in the Soviet Union." We believe what we want to believe for all the wrong reasons.

Meantime the only thing I agree with is that we should examine everything with skepticism. But honestly, why the HELL would our own government kill our own people. And how could THOUSANDS of civilians be in on this whole "plot". It is humanly impossible. Bottom line, it is impossible.

Planes were hijacked, planes crashed into the WTC, the Pentagon, and into the ground. People were killed. This is far from the first time that terrorists have attacked US interests-- embassies, the Cole, the WTC the first time with a truck bomb. And there are similar messes occuring as we speak all over the world.

Is tribal genocide in Africa a conspiracy? It is the result of vicious dictators. Does it not exist?

Never mind. This IS making me tired.

And no, no, no, no, no, no, no I am not saying Bush has a brain. He is probably the worst President in our history. He is like a horse with blinders on. He doesn't think things through. He is rigid/concrete in his thinking. He doesn't LISTEN to people. He is a person with his own agenda coming from his background/personality, etc.

But for some reason, it was OK that 3,000 Americans were killed, yes? That's alright with everyone? It is extremely high statistically that the US will be attacked again, bigger attacks, worse attacks in the coming years. True, we aren't liked. But war is as old as humankind, as old as our ancestors. Cruelty, destruction is nothing new. Wait until the nuclear bomb heads over here in a few years, from God knows where. China? India? Who knows. Allegiances change for so many complex reasons at the drop of a hat.

Sigh, sigh, sigh.
Nite.
D :shock: 
God Help Us All


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Sorry, double post.

Yes the key I find is anyone who has truly extremist views of any kind are the folks to worry the most about. Fudamentalist ANYTHING is a problem. From religion to politics to whatever....

And as I always say, I defy you to get 12 people in a room, faced with the same facts of a crime, and get them to agree on every point, and on how to deliberate the case. I've been on several juries in my life, and it is astounding how difficult that is, murder case, or auto accident.

12 people, and it can take weeks to come to some general agreement on indictments, punishment, etc.

I give up. :shock: :roll:

Oh, yes, and OJ Simpson is free. Of course, despite all the evidence, he was framed. Oh MY GOD!


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

lostone said:


> Actually in a way I totally agree with you because I believe that evil will one day end.


Sadly, Lostone, this is the reflection of two different camps in the world. I am not an idealist, I don't believe this. I do not believe in innate goodness of the human spirit. I wish I could. There ARE good people.

Perhaps in the future things will get better. I want things to get better. I try to be a decent person, and I falter.

But people are hypocrites. They say, "Dismantle all government and all of us will miraculously be kind to each other. There will be no crime, no pain, no corruption." They say, "People shoudl be allowed to do whatever they want, having innate good, human intentions."

But we forget ... which came first ... the individual, the family, the tribe, THEN the culture, the Government. Government, which is referred to as some sort of living entity unto itself, IS MADE UP OF INDIVIDUAL HUMAN BEINGS, all of whom have different points of view.

And dear God, if we all thought the same, life would be awfully boring.

I wish we didn't hurt each other so much, in so many ways, but this ain't nothin' new.

OK GOODNITE. SHUT UP DREAMER.

Off soapbox.
D


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

Hay Dreamer thanks for you opinion. 

I just wanted to comment about something you said.



> Meantime the only thing I agree with is that we should examine everything with skepticism. But honestly, why the HELL would our own government kill our own people. And how could THOUSANDS of civilians be in on this whole "plot". It is humanly impossible. Bottom line, it is impossible.


Why would our govenment kill our own people?
Answer is simple #1 to take our freedom away from us and #2 because they needed a reason to goto war.

And the answer to the question about thousands of civilians being in on the plot is that they are not all in on it. But actually many peolpe have spoken out about this, people in congress and even people in other governments have spoken out about it, so this is not a well kept secret at all. Even generals have had to retire because of what is going on.

And what really seems more impossible, that some arabs from the middle east were able to pull this off or that the American govenment pulled this off. Fire has never brought down a building in history before but on 9/11 fire somehow brought down 3 buildings. In my mind the idea that some arabs were able to actually break the laws of physics and bring down 3 buildings with fire is the conspiracy.

There are many ideas about what might have happened and not all of them can be true but to me it seems obvious that there is simply no way that the terrorist could have pulled this off without at least the help of our govenment. Someone had to have planted explosives in those buildings and it takes weeks to plan for something like that.

Here is another video where you can actually hear the bombs going off. 

This has happened many, many time in history before. Governments have always been attacking and terrorizing their own people and acting as if it were an enemy. Just look into the history of America itself. Read up about the MKUltra program from the 50s and 60s. Or what about all those Native Americans that were done away with? What about slavery? What about Pearl Harbor? These events are not even disputed anymore.



> Conspiracy theories like this are as whacky as any Fundamentalist movement of any kind. When we go to completely illogical extremes


I hope I am not starting any kind of whacky fundamentalist movement or anything like that :shock: !

If it is considered a fundamentalist movement to talk about the government involvement in terrorist activities then maybe I should not have started this thread. Although I am not really sure what a fundamentalist movement is, I am thinking that it is something bad.

Dreamer please tell me what is a fundamentalist movement exactly and let me know if it has anything in commen with a bowel movement.

If this is some kind of bowel movement then I want no part of it.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

lostone said:


> Why would our govenment kill our own people?
> Answer is simple #1 to take our freedom away from us and #2 because they needed a reason to goto war.


I know I should give up on this, lol. But I've been reading an excellent book I was sent for my birthday! :shock: I'm old.

It's called *The Crisis of Islam: Holy War and Unholy Terror* by Bernard Lewis who is an OLD scholar (older than I am) in Middle Eastern History, past and present. Good Lord the man knows about 10 different languages.

Firstly, problems w/the West and the Middle East actually go back centuries, and the modern era (of high technology and nuclear weapons, etc.) has made it worse since the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1918 I believe. I'm hideous with dates, but I'm forcing myself to learn this.

So if you want some relatively sane historical background there it is to read or not.

It then occurred to me. What you said above. Again, it makes no sense. Our country had been trying to get rid of Saddam Hussein for one reason or other for YEARS. There were many failed attempts by a number of US Presidents including Clinton.

At any rate, he was never a popular fellow, particularly as a vicious, genocidal dictator, even amongt neighboring countries in the Middle East.

SO, how about, we have had problems with Iraq and Iran for YEARS. We have already been terrorized as have been Westerners in many other countries. The US stands for the ULTIMATE in capitalism and modernity -- we are disgusting (I admit it myself, lol) -- we are indeed THE epitome of Western success and perhaps hedonism -- but I guess hedonism doesn't count when any dictator lives in 7 different palaces. Name any dictator these days.

*How about this, vs. some INSANE conspiracy theory? Sorry, but it is so illogoical I can't reason with you on that.

We are not liked by many countries around the world. We were attacked for the first time -- and I don't believe it is the last time -- on our own soil. OK, President Bush chose to use this event -- a REAL event, it didn't have to be staged, we possibly could have AVOIDED it (which shows how incompetent our government can be) -- to invade Iraq and get rid of Saddam. As noted, Saddam for some 10 years? had been sanctioned by the United Nations for violating numerous treaty agreements, for invading local countries, yada.

So, YES IT WAS STUPID, Bush used the REAL attack as an excuse to invade Iraq. Why can't the attack be real? We didn't have to create it.
:roll: OMG!*

Also, what I meant by Fundamentalism is EXTREMISM, taking any POV to the extreme. That could be feminists who end up hating men, to Fundamentalist Mormons who believe it's OK to murder in the name of religion -- not everyday Mormons! -- read "Under the Banner of Heaven". I mean groups of individuals whose beliefs are waaaaaaay over to one side or another, and are extremely rigid and illogical.

Finally, watch any number of PBS documentaries, such as "Why the Towers Fell" -- go to http://www.pbs.org and you can get transcripts/interviews by the very architect/engineer who built the towers. Also, there was a huge argument over this, see the film "United 93" which is brilliant, takes no sides and was produced and directed by a Brit. Available on CD.

Finally go to the site: found this after much Googling, and I can't swear to its accuracy 100% -- http://www.t21.ca/wars/index.htm

It is all about War. Stats, scary stuff, etc. Just a sample:

*
"There have been wars amongst the great powers for 60 percent of the years since 1500. Nine of these wars were general or world wars involving nearly all the great powers. Though not the most prevalent, these are by far the most devastating wars and have the strongest effects on the international system. The twentieth century has seen over 250 wars, including two world wars and a cold war, with more dead than in all previous wars over the past two millennia. If we divide today's wars into the three categories of great power, regional ( possibly including terrorism and the use of weapons of mass destruction), and internal wars, the first is the least likely, but still the most important. We are presently after the equivalent of a major great power war" the Cold War. The turmoil of the post-Cold War transition will continue for a time. *

Also, though no one gives a damn, Africa has the highest rate of tribal warfare, violence, etc., etc. I believe the stats are as of 1999, check the site.

Africa 40%
Asia 35%
Europe 5%
The Americas 5%
Middle East 15%

Final comment on this, and I have to stop responding. God help me. War is so common. Human beings are not innately good IMHO. Different cultures have such different values. In this world since different cultures began to interact and depend on each other things have gotten more difficult.

Conflicting religions, political views lead to this misery. Desire for territory, desire for various commodities, etc., etc., etc.

Why can't someone see these COMMON things in the world.

*We don't need conspiracies to start wars. Again this would imply what many say, that the Holocaust never happened and it was an excuse for all sorts of countries to gang up on the Germans.
:roll: Really, does that make a goddamned bit of sense?

Bush made the wrong call after we were attacked. Yes, he used 9/11 as an excuse to attack Iraq which we've been trying to do since the end of the Cold War, and we've been involved in this plot w/other countries who never liked Saddam either. He didn't need to create a frickin' excuse. We were attacked.

I'm not saying who is right or wrong here, but you don't think that Fundamentalists (extremists who aren't all Muslims), did a rather nasty thing to us? We didn't respond properly, but IT HAPPENED.*

Done.
And I mean, lostone, your views are extreme, they are way over to an illogical POV that doesn't take about a million complex factors into account. Your POV wraps everything up into one neat bow. That is fundamentalism or extremism and it exists everywhere sadly.

There is NO ONE ANSWER to the world's problems. But many people want to thing there is.

Cheers, I need a drink,
D
ACH, I need a break. Recommend the book on Islam. There have been problems with the Middle East/West for CENTURIES. Read the history.

Yes, as my signature says, I'm yelling nonsense down a hole. I give up.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

Dreamer

Thanks for those links, I will have to check them out later on.

Just to let you know, when 9/11 first took place I believed eveything the government said basically. I first started doubting the story when I seen the 9/11 victoms screaming out and protesting about the fact that Rudy Giuliani was shipping all of the material evidence into another country mainly China. When I seen how upset all the victoms family members were getting about this I realized something was not right.

That is why I looked further into what was going on and everything I have learned has pointed in the direction of a cover up.

But people usually don't believe something based on Facts because if that were the case then we would all believe the same thing mostly. The reason that people have such vastly diffrent views in this world is because normally people believe what they want to believe, no matter what the facts are.

So I think that the basic belief diffrence here is that you believe this all happened because of the incompatance of basically the greatest country on earth. And it would have to be one hell of an incompatance to bring 3 buildings down with fire (something that has never been done before).

On the other hand I believe in the evil of our government and of the people of power in this world. History shows us that governments and world leaders have attacked thier own people many, many times before. And it is always done in a way that the 9/11 attacks were done. Even in America some of these kinds of acts have been declassified and are now public knowledge. I do think there are good people in government and in the millitary and some of those people are speaking out about this. But it is my understanding that the people that are in positions of real power in this world are mostly evil and it does not shock me at all to hear that they may be attacking their own people if that is what they have to do in order to start a war.

It is sad but I personally believe that the people of power in this world are far more evil then they are incompatant. And I think the incompatance is all an act. I also believe that many of the conspiracies out there are basically disinformation and it makes the truth much more blurry but this don't prevent me from looking at the evidence for myself.

America and the world is basically a jury now and I think we all should at least take a look at the evidence. Just like we would in a cort of law. We shouldn't just eat up everything our govenment says to us as if it is truth.

Let me know what you think of that book your reading because someone else was just telling me to read that book a few weeks ago. At least I think thats the same book. My memory is messed up.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

lostone said:


> Let me know what you think of that book your reading because someone else was just telling me to read that book a few weeks ago. At least I think thats the same book. My memory is messed up.


Ah, lostone, do you see what you've just said? You are asking me to tell you what I'm reading as opposed to reading it yourself. You are picking and choosing what you read.

I'm saying that this book explains the history of Islam and the West, why we are in conflict.

I also have a sad feeling you won't look up "Why the Towers Fell".

And to say, "How was this perpetrated on the greatest country in the world?" Easy. Why did it take so many countries to bring down Hitler in WWII? Why are we having a HORRENDOUS time in Iraq. If we're as "great" as you say, then our attempt to head Iraq towards democracy should have happened and soon as Rumsfeld foolishly assumed.

READ other sources. I read things like the links you give, hear people talk of them, then try to find the opposite POV to compare it with.

Just briefly, the towers fell, as THEY WERE HIT BY COMMERCIAL JET ENGINES filled with fuel. If you watch any scientific analysis of the thing, you will see some faults in the buildings (WE ARE NOT PERFECT and I think they were completed in the late 1960s).

I forgot exactly, but metal MELTS at a certain temperature, or rather becomes unstable at the molecular level. Just go to PBS ... I'll find the link and READ it. The building was well designed but extremely high burning fuel -- PLANE FUEL, which you don't believe in, so how can I convince you? -- HUGE AMOUNTS OF IT which blew out windows blocks away which subsequent explosions -- caused the building struts to "melt" and pancake downward.

An explosion or series of explosions would not cause that extent of damage.

You say the US is the greatest country on Earth, yet we sound WORSE than the idiots we are. Government is composed of PEOPLE, individuals. Government is not a "thing" an entity, it is the sum of its parts, good and bad. Americans are immigrants. We aren't even a homogeneous population that started out here.

I'll find the PBS link, but I won't read it for you anymore than I'll read the book for you. IF I read links on conspiracies, feel doubtful and do my own research, why don't you. You said we shouldn't believe much of anything we hear. I ESPECIALLY don't believe in ludicrous statements

I'll find the link, and have to give up.

Please READ other sources besides conspiracy theories.
I cannot reason with you, I know.
Best,
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/

Lostone,
Here is EVERYTHING you need to know about 9/11 -- well a LOT. One can never know EVERYTHING about ANYTHING. It is a brand new site on PBS that talks about past programs about 9/11, addresses WHY THE TOWERS FELL -- damage at the molecular level from the heat of the plane crashes -- and has information on the new towers to be built.

It even addresses conspiracy theories.

I can only say, believe what you want to believe. But that I suppose is what I'm doing. The fact that the two of us can't agree simply illustrates that two human beings don't agree on things. I know I won't send the military after you, and I assume you won't nuke me for our differences.

But throughout history, as your group keeps getting angrier at my group and we start collecting followers, we may have trouble. Plain and simple.

I read today they are STILL investigating Princess Diana's death, even though they know for certain that her driver was drunk and driving too fast. Auto accidents are one of the most common ways to die. Even a princess can die in an auto accident.

Another conspiracy theory I can't BELIEVE is in the headlines again.

I beg of you to read this link, but I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/

Everything about conspiracies and science and logic to refute them.
I'm really done with this. I don't know why I try to argue this point with anyone. I need psychiatric help.

8)


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

Dreamer I asked you about that book because there are millions of books in this world and none of us can read all of them.

I only have so much time on my hands and so I don't like to spend the time or money on a book that I am not really going to like or be interested in.

I did watch that nova link that you posted and it is all the same info I have seen over and over. It sounds so crazy to me now that it makes me laugh.

Don't you even wonder why the focus is always on the twin towers?

The media almost never talks about building 7 that was not hit by any jet and was actually further from the twin towers then many other buildings that are still standing.

Larry Silverstein the man that owned all these buildings and had a very large insurance policy on them was on film saying that this building was "pulled" meaning that is was knocked down by his authority. If you read up on how long it takes to plan for a controlled demolition of a building like that you will find out that it takes weeks. Building 7 was knocked down just about 5 hours after the twin towers fell. And just moments after the command was given to pull the building.


I think the reason the media never talks about this building is because there is really nothing they can say. The facts about this are so obvious that they can not even create a story to hide the truth. The building was brought down by explosives, something that takes weeks to plan for.

Dreamer your not talking to a brick wall. I usually try to listen to people even when I fully believe that they are wrong. That is the only way a human can learn. None of the info you posted is really new to me though, it is the same story over and over and that story don't make any sense to me.


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## Epiphany (Apr 28, 2006)

Ok...shouldn't get involved here but I am curious.

Lostone...what is the significance of Building 7? Why did they demolish it and so what if they did...why do they need to talk about it...what is the theory behind the significance of this?

You have said a few times that no building has ever been brought down by fire...what are you basing this on? Fire can very quickly make a building unstable...what makes you so sure it can not bring down a building? You read it somewhere or have you reasearched this? Could the structure of building 7 not have been compromised from the twin towers collapse (which would have shaken the ground and surrounding buildings enough to cause damamge I am sure) enough for it to be deemed unsafe and too hazardous to remain standing? Many surrounding buildings (some up to a kilometre away) were damaged in the bali bombings.

I'll admit I haven't read all the links you posted...lazy I know...personally I do think there are some cover-ups that went on with 9-11 (there is always butt-covering going on especially in polotics), but I think it is fairly extreme to believe the entire event was staged by the govt. Certainly the whole thing was badly handled right the way through but I simply don't believe America's current leader is clever enough or organised enough to pull something like that off.

Having said that...I am going to go and make myself that tin-foil hat on the off-chance I am wrong. Who knows what other conspiracy theories could be true. :wink:


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> That is why I looked further into what was going on


And therein lies the problem. If you look hard enough at anything, you'll convince yourself that all is not as it seems. It's human nature.

A little nauseating, but that's life. Governments lie, all politicians lie or at best - evade the question (sometimes I cringe with embarrassement for them), but I very much doubt that modern, er, civilised (I was going to say western, but that's not exclusively, or even, generally the case) governements are just in it for their own self-interest. The public aren't stupid.

But wild conspiracy theories usually arise from something incredibly dramatic, traumatic - on a large scale, and almost entirely caused by man. You rarely hear conspiracy theories about earthquakes, or hurricanes, or whatever - except from those who's sanity has left the planet with the Little Grey (or is it green, it keeps changing) men that visit them, sigh, during sleep paralysis.

I've never really thought about the psychopathology of those who see conspiracy in everything. And thinking about it, I don't really want to paddle my toes in that particular murky pool. I've leave you all to it.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

Epiphany building 7 is important because even though the other buildings were obviously brought down by explosives, building 7 was even more obviously brought down by explosives and that is why the media never talks about that building.

Here are some pictures for you,

This one is of building 7 and it shows the classic crimp in the building where the center is blown out so that the building falls in on itself. This is how all buidlings are brought down with explosives. http://www.wtc7.net/docs/streamers.jpg

Here is a photo that shows the location of building 7 before it was brought down. http://media.popularmechanics.com/image ... tc7-lg.jpg

This is a map of the area to show the area of the WTC buildings
http://www.wtcdemolition.com/WTC_map2.gif

Now it is a fact that no modern building has ever been brought down by fire! I am not talking about houses or small office buildings I am talking about high rise buildings. These buildings are made of steel and fire even from jet fuel does not melt steel it is just a simple fact. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel
Steel starts to melt at about 2500% F and it *starts* to weaken at about 1500% F, the fires from jet fuel only get up to about 500%F or so. 
http://education.jlab.org/qa/meltingpoint_01.html

In this link you can see the open air temp of burning Jet fuel and also see the max temp of burning jet fuel ever recorded. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_fuel

Now something else to note is that the steel in high rise buildings is not just open normal steel but it is acutally fire proof steel!!!
The media says that the fireproofing was probably knocked off in the crash but remember, nothing crashed into building 7 and that building came down anyway probably because it housed all the FBI and CIA offices that probably had info about the real events of 9/11 inside of it. Or it was just because that was the only other building that Larry Silverstein owned in that area and had just gotten a very large insurance policy on it for 3 billion $Dollars. Probably it was brought down for both reasons though.

Here are some pictures of famous fires that did not bring down the buildings.

The triangle fire (a very old building fire that started the womens rights movement)
http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/images1/m ... e_fire.jpg

This is a building in Spain that burned for days at temps much higher then the WTC buildings. http://www.hemptopia.org/images/spain_fire_core.jpg

Here are a few more examples http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysi ... fires.html

Basically the story of the government and most media is totally unscientific. Besides Larry Silverstein is on tape saying that he ordered for building 7 to be brought down! He admits it, so there is really nothing more to say. That building was brought down right after he gave the order and that would be impossible! A controlled demolition like that would take at least a week to plan for. So it is obvious, the explosives were in place before the planes ever even hit the WTC 1 and 2 buildings.

The idea that President Bush planed all of this is insane, I will admit that, but anyone that really believes that President Bush is the most powerful man in the world has really got a lot to learn. President Bush is just doing what he is told to do. There are many people in the world that are more powerful then he is. The people that are really in power positions are the people that control the money.

Something people keep overlooking about the war is that the US invaded Afghanistan before Iraq. This was probably the main reason for 9/11 and this is why.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... 37,GWYE:en

This was all talked about years ago. The area around Afghanistan is where all the oil is, and that is why we now have taken over that area. Oh lets not forget about the opium trade, it is interesting that the opium fields were actually all burned up before the US took over and now Afghanistan is producing more opium then ever! Actually they are producing about 3 times the amount of opium that they ever have before. Interesting don't you think? http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/2005_Afghan ... est_begins

Afghanistan was the main target, Iraq was just something extra.
But don't be surprised if America goes into Iran sometime soon also, or if America just takes over the entire middle east. Even though America seems to be almost happy about what N. Korea is doing.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> And therein lies the problem. If you look hard enough at anything, you'll convince yourself that all is not as it seems. It's human nature.


Yeah I agree with that a little anyway, but what is your point exactly?

Should we all just walk around like good little robots and not question anything that seems out of place? Is that your suggestion?

Sometimes things are looked at to hard and even the truth can be picked at untill it is not the truth anymore, I agree with that. But we shouldn't all just believe what we are told just because it comes from some authoritative figure. If we do that then we all deserve to be lied to in my opinion.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

My point is that with regard to conspiracy, we should embrace apathy. Sounds harsh? Sounds like you are ready, ney, willing to be kicked around like a football at the politicians whim? No, not really.

Unless you can think up a political utopia which is slightly to the left of Machiavellian, democracy is the best we can hope for. Democracy that embraces total secularism, liberalism. If you can't, or the human race cannot provide such a system (which, except in (and I can think of only one example) Sweden), then we will have to shrug our shoulders and accept it. If I were involved in a disaster, or my country was shocked and devastated like your's was during 9/11, then no doubt I would cling, or rather look for conspiracies to ease the pain. Someone to blame, when the conventional response (the war on turrrr) goes utterly tits up.

We here in the UK have been used to bombings, murders, by the IRA for god knows how long. I can't remember there being any conspiracy theories - because, as in the case of 9/11, if you aren't directly involved then the obvious fact of secterian/religious violence is the answer.

It seems to me that the utter catastrophe of 'electing' a religious neo-conservative government in your country breeds this kind of conspiracy, because of the zealously secretive and relentless bombastic nature of that political philosophy. Don't get me wrong, this isn't an attack on Americans or America individually (although as an individual with a vote - you have to take responsibility for the actions for your country, in the same way that adherent a certain religion must be held responsible for the actions of his religous community - whether it is in your name or not), it is simply my response to the chronic futility of politics, and political debate - on a large scale. Small things don't apply to us. I am no better or worse off now than I was under Thatcher. Or I don't notice it. I don't care that we are becoming a police-state, as long as is doesn't interfere with me. And it doesn't. Sure, there are things that I disagree with, some quite strongly, but seeing as politics is completely futile with regard to the common man, what's the problem?

So there it is. In essence, conspiracy theories erupt in full force in societies that are drowning in secrecy and, most importantly fear and grief. The latest, greatest conspiracy theory over here is about the death of Princess Dianna. But it's only stoked by one man - a man who has been hurt by the British establishment, and who fears it.

As to conspiracy theories regarding, well, I dunno, men on the moon - although it sounds ridiculous - it still comes down to the same thing - fear, disbelief.

I'm not discouraging 'looking into things', because that is our evolutionary gift - but ask yourself, why? And in the end, does it matter?


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> does it matter?


My personal belief is yes, it does matter.

Why?

In order to gain accurate knowledge.

I think that the truth is always important and I hate to see people just accept whatever they are told as if it is the truth.

I imagen that there are many people out there that would actually believe that space aliens from the galactic empire with Darth Vader as commander actually flew those jets into tower 1 and 2. Then with a lazer blast from space they hit building 7, and then they hit flight 93 with another lazer blast and then hit the pentagon by shooting Luke Skywalker out of a lazer cannon.

I do seriously believe there are people that would believe in that story if it were all over the news and the president were preaching about it from the white house.

Or maybe it will be Sauron with the ring of power next time.

Or what if the new truth will be that the umpa lumpas are comming after us? :shock:

I personally will always look up all the info for myself no matter what people tell me. Even if I am told what seems to be the truth, I will look up the facts anyway.

And just FYI there actually already is a religion that worships the power of the Force. Don't believe me.... http://forcereligion.20m.com/ they will even teach you how to become a Jedi.

Why is the truth important?

Because today it is the Muslims, tomorrow it will be Darth Vader!!!
What will we do when the Galactic Empire invades planet Earth? :shock:

That's when the UN will have to take over the entire earth to put a stop to the evil Galactic Empire.

LOL.

I should get paid for my propaganda ideas.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

I rest my case.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

*Take cover everyone!*



















I wonder how many people would believe it if it was on CNN


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

You would !

Tee hee.

:lol:  :lol: :lol:


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

Martinelv my point is that you should look up the facts.

If people come to a crazy conclusion after looking at all the facts then they can't be blamed.

But if you don't look up the facts then your basically just a robot.

This world is run by propaganda and it takes a little work to figure out whats really going on.

The truth is not just going to fall in your lap.

I hate to hear someone suggesting that the truth does not matter.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> If people come to a crazy conclusion after looking at all the facts then they can't be blamed.


What? :shock:

There are no crazy conclusions. It all depends on your frame of reference. And your frame of reference is crazy to begin with, well.....

I shall say no more.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> "There are no crazy conclusions. It all depends on your frame of reference. And your frame of reference is crazy to begin with"


LOL

That sounded funny.

I remember you telling me once before that their is no such thing as truth.

Maybe that is why you find my frame of reference to be crazy in your eyes.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

My personal belief is to do all I can do to find the truth.

If I see you doing the same thing then that will make me happy.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

By the way, I don't believe that you are really apathetic Martinelv.

If you were really apathetic then you would have never posted on this thread.

Maybe you don't know what that word means.

It means you don't care at all one way or the other. 
Well here is a better description http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apathy

If you were apathetic about this then why even post at all?


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

I appreciate Martin's contribution to all of this. I however have
no clue why I continue to participate.

Again, I do not believe in conspiracies, though I do believe in
corruption of one form or another, and ultimately the truth
comes out ... but I prefer to go with logic, than, as noted,
the extreme interpretation.

Re: Building 7. If I could find a good map of the WTC complex
area, you would note that MANY of the buildings that comprised
that complex were destroyed. Building 7 is across the street
from the two towers. Gee, I wonder why it might have any damage?

I mean, people's apartment windows in neighboring blocks
exploded outwards.

HAVE YOU BEEN THERE? Lostone? Were you actually there at "ground zero"? Now, or at any time?

I visited in 2002? I think. The area of destruction was absolutely unbelievable.

Now, however, here is a conspiracy for you -- Martin will be :shock: ,
lol. A small church (on Church Street), which should have been
destroyed, managed to remain. Made me cry. It was a relief area
for those working on "the pile". That entire pile of rubble was hot and
smoking for MONTHS.

OK, Building 7. They obviously focused the initial reports on the two
towers as, again, their demise was the most extraodinary terrorist
event we've seen on US soil. As Martin noted, many other countries
see explosiions, terrorist acts, endlessly.

So, the towers were the focus of the investigation, and the planes,
mainly because this was literally a "murder investigation".

When everyone started figuring out the Towers were a disaster they
evacuated as many people as possible. No one would have believed
those towers would fall. The rest, including the people on the planes,
were killed -- some 3,000? I forget numbers.

At any rate, the buildings SURROUNDING the two towers which fell in
the MORNING of 9/11, were evacuated. People were told to walk out of
the city. LEAVE.

Building 7 was damaged, as were many surrounding buildings. It was
evacuated early on, but it did not collapse until 5pm in the afternoon.

Because the Towers/Pentagon, etc. were foremost in the investigation
other surrounding buildings are STILL BEING INVESTIGATED. The 
concern was how did these huge towers fall and why?

My understanding of Building 7 is it could have been damaged in 
many ways, the same ways that damaged OTHER buildings in the
area. Why it collapsed as it did -- I have faith in scientists and 
engineers. The problem with lack of actual building pieces being missing
is, may I ask, where would you put the rubble of several city blocks
if you needed to dig to see if people were alive. No one believed
they would only find a few people alive. The towers were PULVERIZED.
People, possessions were vaporized for God's sake.

OK, so they are investigating certain similar faults in Building 7's design.

It is probable that debris from the Towers hit Building 7, it WAS ACROSS
THE STREET. The huge hotel was also destroyed, etc., etc., etc.

There was a large gash in the side of the building. Fires burned with 
intensity most of the day in the building. Firefighters I believe were 
otherwise occupied. :roll: It's a miracle MORE buildings didn't burn
down.

*Knowing what is now known about how the molecular configuration
of steel CHANGES and WEAKENS under extreme temperatures ... oh and in the Towers the fire-retardant was literally blown off the struts in the
areas where the planes hit. They now know to have a different kind of
insulation, BUT WHO PLANS TO BUILD A BUILDING IN ANTICIPATION
THAT IT WILL BE HIT BY A COMMERCIAL JET?

So, these buildings were built around the same time, with similar materials. Building 7 most likely had fires of extremely high heat
doing the same damage that happened in the Towers.

THE MOLECULAR CONFIGURATION OF STEEL CHANGES UNDER INTENSE
HEAT. IT CAN FAIL.*

I suppose you could look at all of the space shuttle disasters and say
they were conspiracies. I grew up thinking the space shuttle couldn't
be destroyed. When The Challenger exploded, I was stunned. We
later found out that everyone was aware of the serious dangers of
space flight. Astronauts are aware of this, etc.

Yes, ask questions, be skeptical, but if you assume everything is a
conspiracy (and again as noted, Princess Diana's death), and you only
READ conspiracy theories, well then that is how you think.

I could go on and on and on about all the reasons why we know about
certain things, then later find out other things, etc. This is useless.

And LostOne, you say there are too many books out there to read.
Well, you've put up so many links to read, for US to read, why don't you
try one or two books of a more scientific POV.

Also, the Bernard Lewis book -- he is known as one of the top scholars
in Middle Eastern History. There are certain scholars we turn to when we
want to understand the basics. Try reading it. One book.

Will that kill you?

Never mind. Lunch and a nap.
Well, this is a bit of brainless distraction for a bit anyway.

D
SIGH


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Man, sorry for the double posts.

Was just thinking, there is a huge hoopla over a convention of Holocaust denyers sp?

If you look at the complexity of something, that people don't believe that genocide occurs, not just to the Jews, but to many groups around the world, well, you really start to lose faith in humanity.

I don't know where that logic comes from, but Martin started to discuss it.
Meantime, could we type so that I don't have to scroll fifty feet to the right to read the posts. Sorry if mine came out that way.

:evil:

Why go to the most ILLOGICAL conclusiion? I don't understand that.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> BUT WHO PLANS TO BUILD A BUILDING IN ANTICIPATION
> THAT IT WILL BE HIT BY A COMMERCIAL JET?


Good question.

Answer is that the people that built the WTC buildings were in anticipation that they would be hit by a commercial jet. Not one commercial jet but two.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/design.html

Thats two for each building.

Two times the amount of dammage of what took place on 9/11

Thanks for asking the question Dreamer, now you have the answer.

By the way I never have been a strong believer of conspiracies myself because I am aware that most of them are actually just disinformation. Disinformation is basically the truth but a twisted truth that is pushed right into the face of the public so that when the real truth comes out, nobody will believe it. So it is like a flood of crazy stories and crazy conspiracies that are put out into the public in order to mask a true conspiracy. That is why people just become apathetic and they will just believe anything that is on CNN.

This is why there are so many wacky conspiracies out there. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation

Disinformation has been used many times before on populations in order to mask the truth. So when the truth comes out, people are totaly blind to the truth because they only believe what the main propaganda tells them to believe. Sadly it works and it makes people give up hope of finding the truth. Or even worse it makes people say crazy statements like "there is no such thing as truth".

It is a brainwashing tactic, that governments have used for years. 
They flood the public with all kinds of crazy conspiracies and that way nobody will ever believe the truth because it will just be considered another crazy conspiracy.

These people are not stupid. I think it is very unwise to place the incompatance of the world leaders above the evil of the world leaders. History is the proof that people of power often become very evil. History is also the proof that governments have been attacking their own people since the begining of time.



> Why go to the most ILLOGICAL conclusiion? I don't understand that.


I don't either.

Oh wait, yeah I do. 
Because it is more comfortable.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Lostone, then why believe ANYTHING? From the way you come across you can't believe anything at all. Or believe everything. I can't figure it out.

You believe what you want to believe, I'll believe what I want to believe. It's nothing new.

I can't reason with you, and I suppose as Martin says, "Who cares?"

My question to you is, OK, there's a conspiracy. We blew up our own WTC. Now what? LOL.

Regardless of what you say, the information on that site is as twisted as a Michael Moore documentary.

Do you understand that the WTC was around in the early 1970s? I can't recall the year it was built. In those years we were worried about the Soviet Union lobbing a nuclear weapon or two over at us, and they were worrying likewise.

When the WTC was built, I didn't have a personal computer -- they had those GIGANTIC things and I wouldn't have believed there would be an internet if you paid me.

I used a typewriter, we didn't have cell phones, we didn't have cable, our phones in the house had actual dialers on them, man had JUST landed on the Moon, I flew regularly on airplanes with my mother all over the world -- airplanes that made so goddamned much noise I couldln't hear. Many were larger planes with propellors.

Smoking was allowed on planes -- GOD FORBID, I'll have lung cancer from that one day. When I traveled as little girl all they cared about was "customs" -- that is what items you were bringing back into the country such as elephant tusks or zebra handbags or whatnot.

It was in the early 1970s we worried about hijackings of planes. Holding the passengers for ransom, not using them as weapons! These new terrorists were smarter than we were!

Do you understand that in another time and place, even just 35 years ago, things were amazingly simpler? As I said, I was thrilled with the space program. When we were successful with launches it was amazing. If a launch failed and astronauts died, it was terrifying. No technology is perfect, and we want to believe it is. I was shocked when the Concorde crashed. It had run for YEARS without a crash. None. Do you remember the Concorde?

I honestly don't recall any engineer stating those buildings were built FOR an attack by a jet, but if they said that, they didn't know THEN what they know NOW. That is for certain. But more important, no one would have seriously believed that really would happen.

In the new reports they still say, well, we build a building for the worst-case scenario, but dear God if the NEW WTC were hit by a jet, I wouldn't be surprised it would be a catastrophe. And terrorists are probably already figuring how to bring that thing down now.

If you watch the documentary by the Naudet brothers, Jules and Gideon Naudet, called 9/11 (French brothers there to do a film about a firefighter), they have the only footage of activity INSIDE the Towers right after they were hit.

No one there knew what the Hell was going on -- the firefighters in one tower didn't understand what was happening in another tower. They were INSIDE, communication was poor. Why? No one thinks such things will happen. If you just watched that documentary, which I doubt you will because you have more time to look up conspiracy theories, (and here I am wasting my time arguing with you and I don't know why).

*Also, here is the perfect example. THE TITANIC. No one believed ANYTHING would sink the Titanic. NO ONE. Hence they didn't even put enough lifeboats on the thing, didn't do the proper drills, etc. Sometimes it's ignorance or arrogance. Human beings are also imperfect. If you believe in perfection, you will be sorely disappointed. If you CLING to perfection you might make up a story about what 'really' happened to the Titanic as you wouldn't be able to accept that it could be destroyed by an iceburg!

BAD THINGS HAPPEN. I've got to give up on this discussion!

I'll remain in my ignorant world and you in yours. Things should be alright if someone doesn't nuke us all pretty soon. I really don't have a great deal of faith in humanity, and it's sad.*

Maybe it matters that I'm 48 now. But to be honest, I was never a conspiracy believer. Why do you think I'm not and you are? Curious of your age, but I don't think that makes a difference.

SHIT HAPPENS, whether you want to believe it or not. And we have crazy shit happen, like jets flying into the WTC. NO ONE, in my generation, would have even given that a second thought. Certainly the intelligence we accummulated over time started tipping people off, but the government was INCOMPETENT in getting the information together. This might have been stopped. Some people DIDN'T BELIEVE such a thing could happen.

Did you know that tomorrow Elvis Presley will be on "The Tonight Show" with Jay Leno? He was really in hiding all this time as he knew about the WTC conspiracy and will talk about it, everything. He also worked with Mark Felt on tipping off Woodward and Bernstein about the Watergate scandal! Now THAT I didn't know.

Cheers,
D

Oh, why, why, why do I waste my time on this.
It's sick. :shock:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Also, you didn't mention why the little church survived all of that. Look at the map and see where it is. If we were covering up a Muslim Fundamentalist plot, or staging one, why didn't they destroy the little church?

OMG why am I in this conversation. Waiting for my dinner to cook. I'm tired of holiday cards, and have a headache. I STILL could be doing something more productive.










Hmmm, from looking at this map, I would say someone wanted to make a mess of the symbol of Western capitalism, and did a rather good job of it. I STILL don't understand why that Church was spared -- the symbol of Catholocism. I think MARTIN was behind it. :shock: HE saved the church in a conspiracy to make people BELIEVE IN GOD. MARTIN!

Dreamer, give UP.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2006)

Wasn't Pearl Harbor attacked and destroyed by the Japanese and America knew about these plans, yet let the attacks happen, so America would have a legit reason to get involved in WWII (or something like that)?


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Wendy said:


> Wasn't Pearl Harbor attacked and destroyed by the Japanese and America knew about these plans, yet let the attacks happen, so America would have a legit reason to get involved in WWII (or something like that)?


Woman, woman, woman! OMG. :shock: Those poor WWII Veterans from I don't know how many countries are going to have your head, lol.

I can't justify using the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but at the time the invasion of Pearl Harbor FORCED our hand. We were hangin' back on our haunches on that one. The Russians and their allies did all the dirty work vs. Hitler for us earlier on in the war. Japan was so different then. We were taken by surprise on that one!

I can't find the link now, HELL, where I got this basic history from, but this is what I learned/forgot, try to remember from school.

What is so disturbing is how much hatred there is for the US without complete understanding. The US is such a young country. Many countries that existed before we did perpetrated all sorts of hideous atrocities on the face of the earth. Did stupid things in the name of a million different reasons.

We were not gung-ho on WWII at all -- it wasn't near us. We even closed our borders to Jews trying to escape the Holocaust. We joined in on everything late. It was Pearl Harbor that kicked us in the ass, yup, woke us up. There's a famous book about that called "At Dawn We Slept" ... yup, we were a' sleepin', lol.

Oh, Wendy. Everyone hates the US. No one likes us at all. I'm angry at this administration more than any other for going into Iraq for the wrong reasons. But we had information that could have possibly, MAYBE, stopped this WTC plot, but we never got our act together -- imagine 4,000 tips from all over the world that MAYBE something MIGHT happen. I think, and someone, please correct me, but, yes, with the Japanese, we were absolutely blown out of the water on that one. (No horrible pun intended.)

Also, recently the British stopped their own horrible potential airplane terrorist act, and people thought THEY were being paranoid until everyone found out the extent of that. There are many plots that are stopped that we know nothing about, as if we knew about them, well, they wouldn't have been stopped. (That sentence doesn't make sense). Some things are kept secret, literally to protect.

But, Japan? No way. We got bonked on the head with that one.

OK, now I lost the link for this, but it's basic info on Japan. Nobody liked Japan very much in the 1900s!!!!!!

Wendy, woman, don't do this to me, lol! :shock:

*Japan at the time was one tough country, an angry country. We were already involved with them. They just kicked our butts in our own backyard and STILL didn't back down after they were bombed!*

------------------------------------------------
"During the era of the weak emperor Taisho (1912-26), the political power shifted from the oligarchic clique (genro) to the parliament and the democratic parties.

In the First World War, Japan joined the Allied powers, but played only a minor role in fighting German colonial forces in East Asia. At the following Paris Peace Conference of 1919, Japan's proposal of amending a "racial equality clause" to the covenant of the League of Nations was rejected by the United States, Britain and Australia. Arrogance and racial discrimination towards the Japanese had plagued Japanese-Western relations since the forced opening of the country in the 1800s, and were again a major factor for the deterioration of relations in the decades preceeding World War 2. In 1924, for example, the US Congress passed the Exclusion Act that prohibited further immigration from Japan.

After WW1, Japan's economical situation worsened. The Great Kanto Earthquake of 1923 and the world wide depression of 1929 intensified the crisis.

During the 1930s, the military established almost complete control over the government. Many political enemies were assassinated, and communists persecuted. Indoctrination and censorship in education and media were further intensified. Navy and army officers soon occupied most of the important offices, including the one of the prime minister.

Already earlier, Japan followed the example of Western nations and forced China into unequal economical and political treaties. Furthermore, Japan's influence over Manchuria had been steadily growing since the end of the Russo-Japanese war of 1904-05. When the Chinese Nationalists began to seriously challenge Japan's position in Manchuria in 1931, the Kwantung Army (Japanese armed forces in Manchuria) occupied Manchuria. In the following year, "Manchukuo" was declared an independent state, controlled by the Kwantung Army through a puppet government. In the same year, the Japanese air force bombarded Shanghai in order to protect Japanese residents from anti Japanese movements.

*In 1933, Japan withdrew from the League of Nations since she was heavily criticized for her actions in China.

In July 1937, the second Sino-Japanese War broke out. A small incident was soon made into a full scale war by the Kwantung army which acted rather independently from a more moderate government. The Japanese forces succeeded in occupying almost the whole coast of China and committed severe war atrocities on the Chinese population, especially during the fall of the capital Nanking. However, the Chinese government never surrendered completely, and the war continued on a lower scale until 1945.

In 1940, Japan occupied French Indochina (Vietnam) upon agreement with the French Vichy government, and joined the Axis powers Germany and Italy. These actions intensified Japan's conflict with the United States and Great Britain which reacted with an oil boycott. The resulting oil shortage and failures to solve the conflict diplomatically made Japan decide to capture the oil rich Dutch East Indies (Indonesia) and to start a war with the US and Great Britain.

In December 1941, Japan attacked the Allied powers at Pearl Harbour and several other points throughout the Pacific. Japan was able to expand her control over a large territory that expanded to the border of India in the West and New Guinea in the South within the following six months.


The turning point in the Pacific War was the battle of Midway in June 1942. From then on, the Allied forces slowly won back the territories occupied by Japan. In 1944, intensive air raids started over Japan. In spring 1945, US forces invaded Okinawa in one of the war's bloodiest battles.

On July 27, 1945, the Allied powers requested Japan in the Potsdam Declaration to surrender unconditionally, or destruction would continue. However, the military did not consider surrendering under such terms, partially even after US military forces dropped two atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki on August 6 and 9, and the Soviet Union entered the war against Japan on August 8.

On August 14, however, Emperor Showa finally decided to surrender unconditionally. *

Life ain't nice. We fight, and we fight, and we fight.
And sadly we disagree about things.
Makes me sad.
I indeed don't have high hopes for the next generation. A lot of bad things are going on in the world.
On the other hand, I was always depressed, lol.

Shalom, Pax, Paix, Peace, etc.
D 8)
And I SWEAR I didn't make this up, I think .... :wink:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

*Wait, now I think you're jokin' on me. We were already involved as Alllies against Germany. Hitler was a scary bastard and was trying to take over a good portion of Europe. We were obligated as allies to join the war from early on.*

OK, this is a conspiracy against Dreamer, and I'm gettin' outta' here, YIPES.

:?

I am completely paranoid even though I try to be a relatively decent person that being American is indeed enough reason to get hit on the head with an axe or blown up with a grenade!

We've got big problems. And I don't have a fallout shelter in my apartment building. :shock: Lord have mercy.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> A lot of bad things are going on in the world.


Thats something we can agree on.

I would add some info about what happened during WW2 but I am getting sick of this thread.

We could go all the way back through history talking about all the evil acts of govenments that have took place in the world.

People do basically believe what they want to believe. 
Yes there are people that are even saying that the holocaust never took place! I think the main supporter of that idea is Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/ ... 4255.shtml

I am pretty sure that many Iranians probably believe him.

This is a messed up world.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> is as twisted as a Michael Moore documentary.


Dear lord, do you mean that Dreamer? Everything I've read by him seems absolutely spot-on, absolutely. Are you a closet Republican sweetness? If so, then I'm afraid our marriage is off.

It's funny you mention the church. I'm glad it didn't get destroyed. I like churches. Sure, they smell a like a old peoples home, and the theme music to 'The Omen' starts up when I walk in them, but they are nice. Thing is though, once again - people jump to the conclusion that this church was 'saved' - because it is a house of god. Hmm. Yes. But looking at Dreamers map, a lot of other-non-religious buildings got 'saved' too, ones just as close by. Does god protect financial institutions as well?

I would also like to add something about the second world war. Just in case you didn't realise it, America didn't win it on their own. Just making sure.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2006)

Dreamer, I should have been more precise in my wordings. It was not the the 'Americans' knew about, only of course a few government/army officials that did know about the coming Pearl Harbor attacks. Will see if I can find some link(s).

LostOne, yes that Holocaust thing In Iran is really disturbing and yes, the world is a messed up place and fully agree everyone should look for their own truths in the facts that are presented to them (except for the Holocaust!). I happen to read a book on it now and wonder what the people debating in Iran (from which some have spent time in jail for expressing their ideas the Holocaust never took place) want to talk about? It's crazy.

Did anyone know (and I will try to find a link for this as well), that Richard Nixon had the surface of the Moon staged in a studio and had a famous moviedirector do this and make photo's of it, in case the visit to the moon would fail? 
Im not making this up. I saw it in a documentary with American officials confirming this.

Have the flu, off to bed (again). :?


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> I saw it in a documentary


Well that's it then. Irrefutable, conclusive proof. 

I don't understand why a certain population of people seem to actually 'want' our spectacular achievements to fail, or to be a fraud. Why is that? What is their motivation? Is it some kind of sexual thing? Do these people actually believe that nuclear power exists? Or are we just burning coal at a tremendous rate in those domes? Is it a personality type? Perhaps it's a personality disorder. Yes, I think it is. I'm going to call it: _Conspiracy Delusional Disorder_. Do I win a prize for this spectacular insight?

Diagnosis for this disorder includes any three of the following:

Not believing a word that anyone says, period.
A strong urge to lurk in dark corners, staring suspiciously as something.
A quite unnatural affinity to garishly coloured wollen cardigans
A shocking internet bill.
An inability to 'let go' of previous personal failures.
A pathological mistrust of governments, or any authority figures. 
Obsessional nurturing of imagined grievances.
A wild sense of neurotic gratification in revealing failure.
An utter inability to finish a sentence without wiggling his fingers in the 'quote' manner, to indicate suspiscion.

Case Study:

Nitram was a 35 year old male, who was admitted to Looney-Tunes Hospital for the Pathalogically Mistrustful, London, after being found staring up at the sky and shouting; "They aren't really stars - they are just holes in the sky where the daylight shines through." Upon sedation (with a cheese baguette) the wild eyed Nitram slowly revealed other curious delusional states. To quote:

"Yeah, sniff, I let my house _burn_ down one night because, well, everyone REALLY knows that fire is a holographic projection used by the FBI/CIA/MI5 to scare people. And besides, the men who came to put the, ha, _fire_ out, weren't really fire-men, because EVERYONE REALLY knows they are just actors, like on that film, you know - THE TRUEMAN SHOW. See what I mean? It's all a conspiracy. TRUE....MAN? See? They are laughing at us."

Nitram couldn't elaborate on who exactly was laughing at who, and why. After peeling off his X-Files t-shirt, Nitram was given a complete physical examination. All manner of tests were performed upon him, but no biological cause for his acute mistrust could be found. He continued to rave wildly about all manner of imagined conspiracies, until his elderly mother turned up, hit him over the head with an umberella, upon which he mumbled an apology and shuffled away quietly.


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## Hopefull (Dec 1, 2006)

Martinelv, Thankyou

You never fail to lighten the mood on this site.
That was probably the funniest post I have read yet :lol: 
Brilliant.

Thanks for the laugh

Bailee


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2006)

double post


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2006)

Martinelv said:


> > I saw it in a documentary
> 
> 
> Well that's it then. Irrefutable, conclusive proof.


lol Martin, to my own surprise I did find a link to that documentary.
Here are the text and link:

http://www.orwelltoday.com/moonhoaxdoc.html

Text:


> It was more important that astronauts be seen
> to be walking on the moon
> than actually walk on the moon.
> 
> ...





> I don't understand why a certain population of people seem to actually 'want' our spectacular achievements to fail, or to be a fraud. Why is that? What is their motivation? Is it some kind of sexual thing? Do these people actually believe that nuclear power exists? Or are we just burning coal at a tremendous rate in those domes? Is it a personality type? Perhaps it's a personality disorder. Yes, I think it is. I'm going to call it: _Conspiracy Delusional Disorder_. Do I win a prize for this spectacular insight?


You take this issue to an extreme here and make it absurd. One doesnt have to be delusional or paranoid or suffer from any kind of disorder to put question marks with facts that we get presented on worldly issues day after day. 
If it was directed at me, I personally do not want spectecular achievements to be a fraud. Having seen the documentary, I just wondered: ok, what more is there we people get presented as 'truth' which may not be truth at all (or partially true/untrue).
First thing I learned at the University (even at highschool) was to question things and draw my own conclusions/develop my own views and not take things at face value. I think this is healthy.

And btw, saw the news here about the Ipswich serialkiller. They found another two bodies of prostitutes. Wouldnt be the first serialkiller in Britain though, I recall there was one who worked as a baker in a small town years ago. Forgot his name.

Cheers.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2006)

For Dreamer.
Not PROOf of anything, just some very interesting questions about the whole pearl harbor thing.

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/pearl_harbor.htm



> THE PEARL HARBOR DECEPTION
> 
> Sacrifice At Pearl Harbor
> 
> ...


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL at Martin. Agreed, you do know how to make someone pee their knickers. I read an article ... forgot where ... that women have an extra part of the brain for appreciating humor, and men seem to make better comedians as this is another way for a man to charm a woman! It sounds crazy, but it makes sense. Also, why men and women find different things funny.

But Martin, part of the reason the women are after you -- treat that poor woman well will you -- is your particular sense of humor. The bit about the mussels and the pineapple re: Ephiphany's recent bundle of joy had me laughing hysterically.

*At any rate, SHAME ON YOU Martin.*

I could argue about Michael Moore for 3 hours here and won't. Think that was in another thread.

*Politically, I am a COMBINATION of things. I have conservative leanings in general, but I also have liberal, and even some socialist and libertarian beliefs. I don not believe that any one system solves all problems. It would be like saying one medical treatment cures all ailments. It just isn't possible.*

I can't/and won't apologize for my basic conservative upbringing which resulted in my going to a private college prep school from Kindergarten through 12th grade. It greatly influenced me. Yes, but it didn't mold me into some sort of puppet. Many of my peers today are all over the political spectrum and have many different types of careers and lifestyles.

My mother was an atheist and blindly Republican -- was too busy being a doctor to give a hoot about politics but voted a straight ticket as far back as I can recall. She thought my religious cousins were idiots for believing in God and told them so! Yet she was pro-choice, she hated men and was a feminist before her time -- Medical School grad in 1943 -- about 1% of her medical school class, and she didn't think twice about it.

So, you can't put my mother in any one category. And you can't put me in any one category.

I don't know what I am. There is no "group" I specifically fit into. I don't think anyone does, really. Dick Cheney's daughter is gay. He's in a quandry. He is trying to lighten up, IN THIS ADMINISTRATION AS VICE-PRESIDENT, on this insane Constitutional Ammendment that Bush wants to ban gay marriages. Firstly, that alone is unconstitutional. It is the job of the States and votes by the people, not the Federal Government to make such an ammendment.

But Cheney, a Republican, is all torn up. He loves his daughter. She is gay, she is in a relationship, and she is PREGNANT. He's between a rock and a hard place. Reality hit him hard a long time ago, and he apparently loves his daughter. He doesn't want to support Bush on this. Not that I worry about Cheney on a regular basis. LOL. I'm not crying over his situation.

1. I believe in privitization but see the necessity for particular government agencies, it's inevitable, probably even socialist health care, yet I fear that the quality will go downhill.

2. I am, pro-choice, pro-equality for women/minorities, I have no problem with anyone being gay and am pro gay unions, but I am not a feminist per se. I feel motherhood is underrated, terribly.

3. I could go on and on about how I am not of ANY one party, though I could say I'm generally Republican, yet I'm also not religious. I believe in freedom of religion, yet I don't like integration of church and state obviously. I AM concerned about the environment, and get ribbed for that!

4. I hate George Bush. I find him rather dull, wearing blinders, single minded, rigid, very rigid, and something of a concrete thinker.

Also, considering all the potential candidates for 2008, I can't think of ONE I like, yet. This is not good.??And the mess we're in now, well it's impossible to solve. NO ONE knows how to solve it, Democrat or Republican.

So, my dislike of Michael Moore is basically my dislike of Michael Moore. One individual who happens to be, as far as I'm concerned, a manipulative bastard. He knows just how to edit film in just the right way to get across his OWN agenda. Watching his films is embarassing to me. He is actually from my STATE. His film "Roger and Me" was about the auto industry here.

He twists facts. He takes words out of context.

What is sad is that we even take sides over our political identities. I don't like to think that way. I don't say "Rah, rah, I'm a Republican, I'm a Democrat" and put bumper stickers on my car. I try to look at different situations and figure what the best approach would be.

That isn't easy. I would never want to be a politician. At some point I think every politician finds they can't please everyone and goes to an extreme, or gives up.

Note, Ronald Reagan was one of the original neo-cons. A Liberal who became a Republican. I don't know why that new catch phrase has taken over -- ooooo evil people.

OK, done with rant.
But Good GOD, man. I don't happen to like Hillary Clinton, but I also don't like George Bush. And I don't like Michael Moore, as a human being!

Peace of the holiday season, lol.
Keep us laughing, Martin,
L,
D
And please be nice to this poor love of yours, treat her well, and maybe you will have a lovely wife at some point.
God save the Queen!


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

*Wendy*, that's a lot of information to take in. Let me read it and review it.

I will note that as I said, yes we were isolationsists and were not thrilled getting involved with this war. But we were already involved BEFORE Pearl Harbor. We were fighting in Europe already. We had to assist our allies against Germany and Italy. Then Japan jumped in in the Pacific. So we were worrying about sort of two World Wars going on, one in Europe and one in the Pacific.

And I find that war to be justifiable. Hitler and Mussolini were out of their minds.

My general sense always, however, is to say, if I (or you) were in the position of any leader at any time in history, faced with certain decisions, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? What would be logical?

I have to read that post/links carefully, but even bringing in the concept that Roosevelt was a Mason. OMG. That's old news. There are more odd stories about Masons that are again used by conspiracy theorists.

Let me get back to your post.

THIS IS INSANITY, lol. 
8)
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Oh, here's the question. How is it that it seems (perhaps I'm being a bit defensive here) that only American leaders, the American people, etc. do stupid, cruel things?

Somehow we excuse everyone else ... the great dictators of the world, the former great Empires. No conspiracies there, yet the U.S. ... maybe the US is just one big conspiracy perpetrated by Europe. We are Europeans! We are a country of immigrants. We weren't born here.

My heritage is German, French and Irish. That is my blood, only a few generations back. Yet I was born in the US.

GOD HELP ME IT'S NOT MY FAULT! LOLOLOLOL.

And I feel sort of ... insulted now and again ... not by you Wendy ... but in general, that Americans are "blind sheep", etc. I don't think of myself that way. I think we are far too much into consuming, we are not thoughful about the environment, we have a lot of problems. But maybe I'm parranoid or overly sensitive (well the latter is true), but it is as though every other country in the World is entitled to do what it wishes, and we've somehow CAUSED them to do bad things.

That would mean other countries aren't even operating on their own volition.

The scary thing w/all this conspiracy business is ... and we get into DP City here -- what is real? what isn't?

I have to have some basis of understanding to work from. Be skeptical yes, but not overboard.

I'll have a look at all that stuff.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2006)

Dreamer said:


> GOD HELP ME IT'S NOT MY FAULT! LOLOLOLOL.


Ok and now I want to you to SING it in ALL the colors of the Rainbow! :lol:

It is NOT my fault

It is NOT my fault

 It is NOT my fault

 It is NOT my fault 

(we have some disco-smilies here?)

It is NOT your fault. You are not your government. And your government is not you.
Get that in your head, woman! 8)


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

I don't really want to drag this on anymore but I just wanted to say that I agree with Dreamer about Michael Moore.

I personally think that he is part of the disinformation. Some of what he said seems to be true but mostly he just seems to be whitewashing the truth. Anyone that studies psychology will learn that the govenments and corporations of the world actually hire people like Michael Moore in order to put out disinformation.

Now I don't know the facts about Michael Moore for sure but I do not like him and I would not be surprised if he actually got a nice check from the government for his films.



> One doesnt have to be delusional or paranoid or suffer from any kind of disorder to put question marks with facts that we get presented on worldly issues day after day.


Thanks for pointing that out Wendy. 
I think that anyone that does not question what they see in the media really just has far to much faith that what they are hearing from Wolf Blitzer is actually true. It is not very wise to assume that the governments, corporations and media of this world are always telling us the truth about things. They have far to much at stake to just tell us the truth. These people don't get into positions of power by being honest and they don't maintain power by being honest.

And when did paranoia of government become something that is viewed as bad?

I doubt that any of the survivors of auschwitz would have a problem with being a little paranoid of their government. Trusting in everything that is on CNN or the BBC is not wise at all in my eyes.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Wow, LostOne, you agree about Michael Moore! I swear to you
however, he is his own worst enemy. He has made a fortune out
of "Farenheit 911". He has also been sued repeatedly for "using" 
people, taking their words out of context.

He has lied to everyday folks, told them he was doing an interview
for NBC, or CNN, or some other purpose, then edited their words
OUT OF CONTEXT into his films.

I believe he believes in what he says.

But I also hate certain FUNDAMENTALIST Conservatives. I hate
Anne Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reily. I don't like a lot of
Conservative pundits any more than a lot of Hollywood actors
who think they know everything about politics.

I respect Bono. I love U2, but Martin, did you knkow they are 
actually a Religious Rock Band. Bono is very much a Christian, I
believe he is a Catholic. But he is honest and genuine about where
he is coming from. His work for good causes is genuine.

I also like Jimmy Carter's work on Habitat for Humanity. I like the
guy.

*Wendy* I looked briefly into some of the links you gave, particularly the video on Roosevelt. Comments about it would call it "revisionist" history and history rewritten in hindsite. I have to look further.

What I still don't understand though and no one has answered me is,

WHY the US exclusively? Do you believe there are no plots in other governments then? No corruption? And if you look back in history
virtually every country in the West was an occupying power of some
territory or another. The Dutch in South Africa. The British -- everywhere. The French all over the place. And Muhammed (a true
historical figure) was not only a religious man, but a leader who
sought to take over a huge amount of territory in the name of Islam.

But history is the past, yet, as I always quote from "Magnolia" --

"We might be through with the past, but the past ain't through with us.

Wendy, I'll look into the revisonist version of Roosevelt, but I very much
doubt most of it already. Japan was a huge danger. Other countries --
China, Russia, many Western countries were furious with the Japanese
in those years. They were NOT deterred initially by the two bombs
dropped on their country.

Now, Japan is an ally of ours. Asians are doing better than the rest of us
in university. They are quite a successful nation I admire for their creativity.

There is good and bad in all humans. The world/the government is made up of people .... we are unique people. We bring our own personal issues
into our jobs, and that includes politicians.

SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER. WHY IS IT THE US THAT IS IN THEORY THE
ONLY COUNTRY THAT IS ENDLESSLY CONSPIRING TO DO ONE THING OR
ANOTHER? IS ANY OTHER COUNTRY GUILTY OF THIS?

I need a break. I'm at the library, checking out my revised site on yet another browser. Thank God IE is forgiving. My HTML stinks, but this is helping me write and edit.

Too much time on the computer!

Lostone, I'm surprised you don't like Michael Moore, especially his theories on 9/11? Why don't his conspiracy theories fit with yours?

OK, Happy Holidays to all!
Love,
Dreamer


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## Cam (Dec 13, 2006)

:!:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Wendy said:


> Dreamer said:
> 
> 
> > GOD HELP ME IT'S NOT MY FAULT! LOLOLOLOL.
> ...


Bless you my child. Appreciated. I just get so squirmy about conspiracies. One of my issues I suppose.
Thank you.
"We are family, I got all my sistah's with me!"

Or better yet:

"Good Times! These are the good times!
Good Times! A new state of mind!
A rumour has it that, it's getting late.
Time marches on, just can't wait.
Don't be a fool, participate!
Clams on the half-shell, and rollerskates, rollerskates!" 8)

And can't forget Marvin though: "Ah, mercy, mercy me. Oh, things ain't what they used to be .... "

.... and yet, when have things ever been truly peaceful, EVER, throughout history. Never.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

Dreamer I think I have only seen you get this worked up just one other time, it was in a thread that some 16 year old girl put up (don't remember her name now though).

It does seem to me like you connect yourself with American politics way to much. I was born in the Chicago area and have lived in the US my whole life, but I never consider myself to be linked to the politics of this country. Probably because I am not a politician.



> SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER. WHY IS IT THE US THAT IS IN THEORY THE
> ONLY COUNTRY THAT IS ENDLESSLY CONSPIRING TO DO ONE THING OR
> ANOTHER? IS ANY OTHER COUNTRY GUILTY OF THIS?


To answer that question I will say yes many other countries conspire against their own people. Almost all of them do, they always have. Even way back almost 2000 years ago the city of Rome was totally engulfed in flames that were set by Ceasar Nero then after burning down most of Rome he blamed it all on the Christians and that is when they started killing the Christians in the Arena.

These days it seems that most of the real power players in this world are in many diffrent places but mostly in the US and UK. There are many conspiracies about the illuminati, freemasons and the Jesuits that tie into 9/11 and these same stories go way back through history to the year of 1776. Conspiracies about the illuminati have not went away because the illuminati have not really went away. We still have many secret societies, something that was outlawed (then made legal again) many years ago in europe for good reason.

Here is one link for the basic facts about the illuminati http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminati

One society that is believed to be a part of the modern illuminati is the skull and bones, a secret society that John Kerry and George Bush both are members of, along with many other powerful people.

Here is some info about the skull and bones http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_and_bones

So the reason there are more conspiracies here is because this is where the power is and this is also where the illuminati is. It is a fact that they were responsible for the French Revolution and their plan was to take over all of europe and the world. The same people that were involved with the illuminati have set up many of the modern secret societies in Europe and America.

Think about it, if you were going to try to take over the world then where would you goto? N. Korea?? I don't think so. There are a lot of conspiracies here for a reason but not all of them are true and I believe that most of them are actually disinformation.

Just think about what we know of the MKUltra program that the CIA conducted. Now that is one of the most bizarre stories around but it was a real program that the CIA conducted for years (mostly all declassified now). How can anyone ever put faith in a govenment that conducts brainwashing experiments on thier own people? Most of those people had families and some of them died because of the experimentation. One man that killed himself because of MKultra was actually a high ranking federal employee. Oh and the main focus of Mkultra, in case I did not already say this, it was a program for experimentation with brainwashing tactics!!! Who do you think is being brainwashed with what they may have learned?

Link for MKULTRA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA

So Dreamer these conspiracies exist for a good reason. They are not all false. There are many, many facts that back up many of the more well known conspiracies out there but since there is so much disinformation people don't want to believe anything except for what is on CNN, FOX and the BBC. As I said before, the leaders of the world are not stupid. They make up many of these conspiracies themselves in order to make the truth harder to find.

And about Michael Moore, I don't know what his story really is but I don't think that he is really someone that is seeking the truth. The way that he made his films would lead me to believe that he actually works for the government, CIA or whoever. I don't know for sure but everything in his film mostly just seems like disinformation to me. Although what he said about the Arabs being flown out of the country I found to be true. People that make up disinformation often include facts into their line of misleading disinfo though. That is why they are so successful at diverting the truth. They make the truth look crazy and even irrelevant so nobody cares anymore, that is something I think Michael Moore did very well whether that was his objective or not.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

I could sit on a beach and watch the sunrise and offend someone. It's a god/s given talent, I swear. 

But don't you think, that people who are _really_ into conspiracy theories have certain personality traits - traits that are beyond the norm? I absolutely agree that one must not always take everything at face value, but the whole 9/11 thing, and men on the moon.....

I think these kind of people either have a deep rooted 'hero' complex; and fantasize wildly about the adulation of the masses when they reveal the 'truth', or they seeth with jealously when a person or a group of people does something spectacular, and it digs a knife deep into their own real or imagined failures.

Or am _I_ looking to deep into it?


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## Epiphany (Apr 28, 2006)

> You never fail to lighten the mood on this site


It amazes me how Martin can lighten the mood by darkening the discussion.  Nice work nitraM.



> SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER. WHY IS IT THE US THAT IS IN THEORY THE
> ONLY COUNTRY THAT IS ENDLESSLY CONSPIRING TO DO ONE THING OR
> ANOTHER? IS ANY OTHER COUNTRY GUILTY OF THIS


?

I think we can blame The X-Files for this...Mulder and Scully have a lot to answer for...they have created a generation full of paranoids.

Noone here in Oz ever conspires to do anything...we are all far to lazy and much too busy enjoying the sunshine to bother. :wink:


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## Epiphany (Apr 28, 2006)

> But don't you think, that people who are really into conspiracy theories have certain personality traits - traits that are beyond the norm?


When I was trapped in the throes of DP I'll admit it crossed my mind that everything that I had ever known/learnt/thought about life and just existing in general was just one big conspiracy...as though we as humans had all been kept from seeing the real truth about life and yet it suddenly seemed so clear to me. I had never been one to subscribe to conspiracy theories in the past but suddenly I seemed to be the star of The Truman Show. So maybe it shouldn't be all that surprising that there are people on this site who have (very) alternative and unshakable views from the norm...isn't that what brought most of us here in the first place?


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## Crystal (Dec 13, 2006)

Sorry wrong tread 

crystal


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Hmm. No Epiphany - I've been waiting for a response like this. It's inevitable I guess.

I do not equate people with Delusional Conspiracy Theory (tm) Disorder with DR/DP. They are two seperate things entirely, and you know this. Sure, when you have DR/DP you obsess about the 'reality' of things, but it's a completely different kettle of fish.

DR/DP is a protective mechanism gone wrong. Conspiracy theories are conscious, deliberate actions motivated by...well, god know's what.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2006)

Dreamer said:


> Bless you my child. Appreciated. I just get so squirmy about conspiracies. One of my issues I suppose.
> Thank you.
> "We are family, I got all my sistah's with me!"
> 
> ...


LOLOL. The song I had in mind Dreamer, after I wrote that post was : "I will survive!" (Gloria Gaynor), but that Chic tune really does it!

I have tried to look up stuff on conspiracies in other countries last night, but couldnt find what I was looking for. Will see today if I can find some.
Also found another article on Pearl Harbor that really states the facts. It also says among others, Germany declared war to the US, AFTER Japan declared war to US after Pearl Harbor.

Ok, flu has been really killing me today. Will come back to you (and LostOne) when Im feeling a little bit better to do so.

Keep singing :wink:


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## Cam (Dec 13, 2006)

Hi

I was reading this book while waiting to see my GP, the author was talking about the time he was on this American talk show when a caller rang in and made what he claims to be a great point.

He likened humanity to the husband who knows his wife is being unfaithful, but is desperately trying to persuade himself its not true. When she comes home he confronts her about where she has been and who shes been with. The husband knows the truth, but he is desperately hoping that his wife's explanation sounds credible enough for him to go on kidding himself that everything is fine. he'd rather hear a good lie than accept an unpleasant truth. In the same way, most people don't want to face the conspiracy and corruption of governments or ask why the countries go to war against defenceless civilians, including their own. When governments deliver the lies and excuses for their grotesque actions most people are ready to accept them because they want to believe the lies are true. the alternative is to face the fact that the government is not a benign servant of the people-Its the other way around.

By the way the book was called 
*Infinite love is the only truth-everything else is illusion*

Cam


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> He likened humanity to the husband who knows his wife is being unfaithful, but is desperately trying to persuade himself its not true. When she comes home he confronts her about where she has been and who shes been with. The husband knows the truth, but he is desperately hoping that his wife's explanation sounds credible enough for him to go on kidding himself that everything is fine. he'd rather hear a good lie than accept an unpleasant truth. In the same way, most people don't want to face the conspiracy and corruption of governments or ask why the countries go to war against defenceless civilians, including their own. When governments deliver the lies and excuses for their grotesque actions most people are ready to accept them because they want to believe the lies are true. the alternative is to face the fact that the government is not a benign servant of the people-Its the other way around.


Wow, I am going to have to buy that book. That is a perfict explination of why people would rather put faith in a lie then in the truth.

Just so everyone knows, these conspiracies are not made up because of paranoia. Some of them might be but not all of them.

Here are a few quotes from some famous people.

"The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not 
behind the scenes." --Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli of England, in 1844.

"The Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) is the American Branch of a society which originated in England ... (and) ... believes national boundaries should be obliterated and one-world rule 
established."-- Professor of History Carroll Quigley, Georgetown University, in his book "Tragedy and Hope".

"Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it." - Woodrow Wilson

"[The New World Order] cannot happen without U.S. participation, as we are the most 
significant single component. Yes, there will be a New World Order, and it will force the United 
States to change it's perceptions." -- Henry Kissenger, World Affairs Council Press Conference, 
Regent Beverly Wilshire Hotel , April 19th 1994

"David Rockefeller is the most conspicuous representative today of the ruling class, a multinational fraternity of men who shape the global economy and manage the flow of its capital. Rockefeller was born to it, and he has made the most of it. But what some critics see as a vast international conspiracy, he considers a circumstance of life and justanother day's work... In the world of David Rockefeller it's hard to tell where business ends and politics begins" . Bill Moyers

"We know in the not too distant future, a half dozen corporations are going to control the media. 
We took this step (merger) to ensure we were one of them"--Time Warner spokesperson.

"We shall have World Government, whether or not we like it. The only question is whether 
World Government will be achieved by conquest or consent." -- Statement made before the 
United States Senate on Feb. 7, 1950 by James Paul Warburg

All of us will ultimately be judged on the effort we have contributed to building a NEW WORLD ORDER."--Robert Kennedy, former U.S. Attorney-General, 1967.

"The real rulers in Washington are invisible and exercise their power from behind the 
scenes."-- Justice Felix Frankfurter, U.S. Supreme Court.

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insideous forces working from within." -- General Douglas MacArthur

"For some time I have been disturbed by the way the CIA has been diverted from it's original 
assignment. It has become an operational and at times a policy making arm of the government." -- 
President Harry Truman

"The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government of the U.S. since the days of Andrew Jackson."-- U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt in a letter written Nov. 21, 1933 to Colonel E. Mandell House.

"The real menace of our Republic is the invisible government which like a giant octopus sprawls 
its slimy legs over our cities, states and nation."-- Mayor (1918-1925) John F. Hylan of New York.

"If a nation values anything more than freedom, then it will lose it's freedom; and the irony of it is 
that if it is comfort and security that it values, it will lose that too.Unknown Americans must decide : 
Are we to be governed by Americans or by an International organization ? I, for one, owe no 
alliegence to the United Nations nor will I give it any. I obey only the U.S. Constitution. You had 
better think about this issue, for if the U.N. can violate the Sovereignty of Haiti, Iraq and other 
countries, it can violate ours...The United States may not be the top dog 15 years from now. U.N. 
security council resolutions, backed by say chinese soldiers, could be aimed at us."-Charley 
Reese-Orlando Sentinel

"From the days of Sparticus, Weishaupt, Karl Marx, Trotski, belacoon, Rosa Luxenberg and 
Ema Goldman, this world conspiracy has been steadily growing. This conspiracy played a definite 
recognizable role in the French Revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement 
during the 19th century. And now at last, this band of extraordinary personalities from the under- 
world of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their 
head and have become the undisputed masters of that enormous empire."--Winston Churchill to 
the London press in 1922.

There are many more quotes like these but I don't see the point in posting all of the ones I know of.

Actually there are mounds of evidence that is out in the open about 9/11 and the terrorist acts around the world. If any of you would just look a little deeper into things you would see that terrorist have been attacking basically the entire world since 9/11 and the terror just gets worse and worse. Now who has the ability and the motive for doing this? Are we really to believe that a small band of Muslims have the motive for attacking the entire world? I don't have time to list all the diffrent places that have been attacked in the past few years by "al qaeda" because there are just to many places to list.

Think about it though. Who has the motive for attacking the world like this? "al qaeda"? Yeah al qaeda does but why? Maybe because they are all CIA operatives, now there is some more very public knowledge.

If you look into the past of President Bush you will see that he is actually very close friends with the Bin Laden family and also had very strong ties with Hitler and the Nazi war machine.

Google the name of Prescott Bush and you will see the connection between the bush family and Hitler.

If you don't believe any of those quotes and you are to lazy to look them up then just watch this very short video where you can see President Bush speaking about the NWO on film.

http://vtcommons.org/node/455


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Wendy said:


> LOLOL. The song I had in mind Dreamer, after I wrote that post was : "I will survive!" (Gloria Gaynor), but that Chic tune really does it!
> 
> I have tried to look up stuff on conspiracies in other countries last night, but couldnt find what I was looking for. Will see today if I can find some.
> Also found another article on Pearl Harbor that really states the facts. It also says among others, Germany declared war to the US, AFTER Japan declared war to US after Pearl Harbor.
> ...


LOL
Yes, I have it ALL ass backwards, or "all hind-end to" as my mother would say. Here's the basic scenario as it is so damned complicated. But no, we didn't "allow" Japan to attack us, no, no, no, we were very Isolationist and FDR waited to the last minute to get involved.

OK in brief:

1. War begins in 1939 when Germany invades Poland
2. Initially Russia is WITH Germany. They make a sweetheart deal where they're going to divvy the place up. OMG.
3. The UK -- the entire Crown -- supports Poland. UK, Canada, Australia, yada, yada, yada because of a treaty they had.
4. We support the UK, England, financially, but do not want to be involved.
5. Meantime, the Japanese are causing havoc in the Pacific, beating up on the Chinese.
6. The Japanese want scrap metal from the US to build airplanes. We have an embargo on that and other stuff.
7. * The Japanese get furious with us and bomb Pearl Harbor in 1941,* we have been racist towards them in the past. We also had Japanese internment camps -- Japanese Americans were put in camps as they were suspect of commiting war crimes of some sort.
8. *THIS IS WHEN WE JOIN THE WAR -- on both fronts.*
9. We are with Britain, then Russia who has gotten pissed off by the Germans who end up taking over their land or something, lol.

So the key allies are the UK, the US, and Russia
vs. Germany, Italy and a ton of other smaller countries including Finland for some reason I don't understand. France is also an ally but is defeated by the Germans, and can only help minimally.

THIS INSANE war rages on from 1941 until 1945.

In the end, we don't know what to do about the Japanese. They are scaring the Hell out of everyone and finally we have made headway (with the Russians and Brits) against Germany and Italy. Everyone is pissed with Japan, lol. (This is Dreamer's version of history class).

The atomic bomb is in its last stages of development. FDR ponders using it, but we have already bombed the Hell out of Tokyo with fighter planes. More died from incendiary bombs in Tokyo than from the two atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

FDR DIES -- no he was just OLD, lol, and SICK.
Harry Truman is Vice President and becomes President. With much uncertainty, because nothing else will stop the Japanese, he decides to use the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Even then the Japanese do not want to surrender. A few months later they do.

I think that is now correct. I get confused about Pearl Harbor and bombing Japan, and who was who, as people kept switching allies and a BILLLION things happened at that time.

*Wendy, no way we "allowed" Pearl Harbor to be bombed. I'm sorry. I don't buy it. And we did not want to get involved.

The United States was extremely Isolationist in those years. It may be, I don't know, that we may never have gotten involved if we hadn't been attacked by Japan, I don't know. Those were different times.

But we can still be disco sistah's right? And we'll survive, hey, hey!, LOL.
*

*And LostOne, you have lost me. Too many conspiracy theories there. WAAAAAAY too many. As Martin says, I don't understand the logic behind that type of thinking. Also, many of the quotations by famous people are taken out of context. COMPLETELY out of context.*

I may have a terrible memory, but I'm old -- 48! I can't even bear that. That sort of stuff I did study in school, and I was actually alive, albeit a kid when JFK was President and sadly assassinated sp? WWII (my mother was involved as an M.D. in the U.S. -- women were only allowed to do minimal war stuff, but they ended up filling in men's work positions as all the men were at war. -- "Rosie the Riveter" etc.), my father was a Lt. M.D. officer stationed in the US during the Korean War. My father was also an MD on call Stateside during WWII.

Too many goddamned wars.

OMG LostONE!

:shock: :roll:

Peace,
D 8)


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> And LostOne, you have lost me. Too many conspiracy theories there. WAAAAAAY too many.


LOL

Actually they are all the same.

Here is some information that was on the history channel about conspiracies and how they tie into each other.


Dreamer you asked the question about why all the Conspiracies seem to be in America. I just was trying to point out that the conspiracies are all tied in with each other. If you trust the History channel then watch that video because it covers this info better then I could anyway. Most of the conspiracies in europe and America and the entire world all are about the same people, the people that are in real power positions in this world. There are many diffrent conspiracies but they all basically tell the same story. The history channel puts it together pretty well, watch that video and believe whatever you want. At least after watching that video you will understand why their are so many conspiracies out there.

Mahalo.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

If you look closely at LOSTONE's list, you will see that all the societies and conspiracy theories were/are created not by frogs, nor by giraffes, not even Chimpanzees....but humans. And powerful ones at that. And we all know that people in power fear the loss of power more keenly than those of us who have none, or very little.

I reckon that might have something to do with it. :roll:


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## Pollyanna 3098 (Dec 12, 2006)

OK ,while we are posting quotes, i will post one myself.

Most people are other people. their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.

Oh so sweet the word, irony!

HAHAHA :lol:

3098


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## Cam (Dec 13, 2006)




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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

First Dreamer talks about context without looking up the context obviously and now I am being mocked.

I think I have better things to do with my time.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

Hay Chameleon I did not see your post.



> "Humans detest uncertainty.
> Uncertainties produce anxieties.
> To reduce anxiety, if no factual structure is readily available, humans will simply invent one or accept a ready-to-wear media reality structure, these perceptions, of course, are fictional constructs."


I don't know where you got that quote from but what that is describing is basically cognitive dissonance. Just FYI.

Cognitive dissonance and disinformation go hand in hand basically.

Here is a book that talks a little about cognitive dissonance, disinformation and diffrent brainwashing tactics. 
http://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychol ... 0688128165

That has nothing to do with any conspiracies it is just a book about psychology.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2006)

Dreamer said:


> *Wendy, no way we "allowed" Pearl Harbor to be bombed. I'm sorry. I don't buy it. And we did not want to get involved.
> 
> The United States was extremely Isolationist in those years. It may be, I don't know, that we may never have gotten involved if we hadn't been attacked by Japan, I don't know. Those were different times.*


*

Dreamer. The problem was that the American people didnt want to get involved in WW2 (Isolationism) and that Roosevelt was stuck with this fact. Many an article shows that Roosevelt 'egged on' Japan to attack the US, so Roosevelt had a reason to get involved in WW2. You can look this up, it is in many articles and cant put all of the links that say the same about this.

Also, on the Atomic bombs, I found this. The dropping of the bombs was NOT necessary for Japan to capitulate:




AMERICAN MILITARY AUTHORITIES SAY ATOMIC BOMB UNNECESSARY

The most authoritative Air Force unit during World War II was the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey, which selected targets on the basis of need, and which analyzed the results for future missions. In Hiroshima's Shadow, the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey report of July 1, 1946 states, "The Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bombs did not defeat Japan, nor by the testimony of the enemy leaders who ended the war did they persuade Japan to accept unconditional surrender. The Emperor, the lord privy seal, the prime minister, the foreign minister, and the navy minister had decided as early as May 1945 that the war should be ended even if it meant acceptance of defeat on allied terms.... It is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to December 1, 1945 and in all probability prior to November 1, 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

Click to expand...

(http://www.whale.to/b/mullins8.html#WIL ... BEFORE_THE BOMB_IS_DROPPED).

Dreamer, what you learned in highschool about WW2 is the same I did. However, it was the official version. Having grown a bit older, I can see many official versions of happenings in this world dont necessarily cover the truth.

I like this quote best, that LostOne wrote down:




"The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not 
behind the scenes." --Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli of England, in 1844.

Click to expand...

This doesnt necessarily mean 'conspiracy'. It does mean however that what we see, get taught etc is not what is necessarily true.

This is not an attack on America, as Im greatful they got involved in WW2 (and Canada) so my country was freed from German occupation.
My (deceased) grandparents owned a farm in the country and held at least one jew in hiding.*


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Lostone why do you think I am belittling you?

Yes, people in power are in charge of things. There must always be leaders, and there are always followers. What is getting mixed up here I think are genuine corrupt actions vs. decisions made in times of turmoil. These decisions may be considered "right" or "wrong" by any number of people, but what I don't believe in are conspiracies that imply someone such as F.D.R. had some secret plan to fool the American people.

He made a decision he wasn't even comfortable with, but felt it was necessary. As I said before, if you were FDR at the time, what would you do? Regardless, we could have goaded the Japanese forever ... did they HAVE to attack Pearl Harbor? Did they have no intention to do distruction and bring us into the war themselves. THEY PROVOKED US. We made decisions from there.

I guess this is my POV Wendy. And these things get caught up in strange conspiracies such as the WTC, Masonry, etc.

My goodness, one could call golfing a conspiracy. Many businessmen learn to play golf,not to play golf, but to network with other businessmen. Golfclubs are not secret societies.

I don't consider myself terribly ill informed on conspiracy theories. And what I learned in school is also backed up by my husband who as I've said many times works for the Federal government and was very close to getting his Ph.D. in Political Science ... years back. But he can rattle off dates and history I can't remember for 15 minutes.

I respect his POV as well. This is one reason he and I connected in the first place, though we have other troubles. Sigh.

At any rate, I try to keep up on current politics. I try to understand conspiracy theories. But they make no sense to me.

Again, of course there is corruption, poor decisions. But to me it is ludicrous that FDR would "kill American soldiers" in order to give an excuse to pull us into war.

Again, this is revisionist history. And everyone has a different opinion.

I guess I throw in the towel at this point, as there are vastly different views here. I believe we landed on the moon. I believe Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists attacked the WTC/pentagon of their own volition.

I can't see the logic in the other theories.

If I am blind, then so be it. I DO read, quite a bit, as much as I can concentrate on things. I try to keep up, talk with other people, have discussions like this.

I simply resent being called a blind sheep. I'm sorry if any animosity is felt here. I am writing. You can't hear the tone of my voice, or see my body language, or hear me laugh.

This will never be solved.

And no, we are not all created equal, in many ways, and yes, many people take advantage of this. How could a man such as Hitler get in power? It was very complicated. That doesn't make the Germans stupid people, they got caught up in a nationistic movement after they had been devastated by their loss in WWI. Their morale was rock bottom.

I'm just saying, like the brain, the world is infinitely complex.

Peace to all.
D 8) 
Not angry at anyone. DOn't mean to insult anyone. And I'm not depending solely on my years as a student, which have actually continued throughout my adulthood.

I just have a lousy memory of details.

"There ain't no good guys, there ain't no bad guys, it's only you and me and we both disagree."


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

It just occurred to me. Why couldn't FDR simply have decided to go to war on his own, as Bush did. Then his legacy would be one of a war monger.

And Wendy forgot to mention it's cool what you said about your grandparents helping a Jewish person during the war.

Also, yes we MUST questoin the media. In question in particulr is the internet. I find all sorts of odd sites. Even Wikipedia is unreliable, people can CHANGE the content.

We have to rely on journalists who want to get to the truth. Woodward and Bernstein are the famous example re: exposing the Watergate scandal. Many are revealing much about the Iraq war. There ARE many respectable journalists who take the facts and simply report them without an agenda. I try to find such journalists and rely on them more than other less substantiated media.

If these journalists are being manipulated, where, how do any of us know the truth? We can't. We are all sheep. We no nothing. No one theory is correct and we are ALL living in the dark. I am, but so are those of you who believe differently from what I do.

No offense intended. This is merely a debate.
Lost one I am not mocking you. Why would you say that? And you used a very provocative subject heading about "Americans hurting Americans" or something. Not even "American GOVERNMENT hurting Americans."

And again, the implication is that all Americans are stupid enough to have no knowledge or concern about bad things. Many don't care. Many in other countries don't care what their governments are doing unless it affects their quality of life.

OK, Dreamer SHUT UP, lol.
Gotta go, back at the library and my time is up!


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> This will never be solved.


Yes it will sweetheart. I hear GlaxoSmithKlein are in the final stage of clinical trials for CONSPIRIDOM (Chloroconspirodiazepine), which, as the name suggests, acts like a prophylactic for sufferers of Delusional Conspiracy Disorder (tm). Apparently it blocks the neurotransmitters that sends signals from a sufferer's fingers to his computer keyboard. It has an additional, and welcome, action - such like anti-alcohol drugs; being - whenever the sufferer looks upon a webite with conspiracy theories, he has a histimine-type reaction, comes out in hives and throws up over his shoes.

Recent articles in the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry suggest that it is so selective, however, that side effects may include:

Dressing smartly
Believing everthing that anyone says to you, including infants.
Blindly accepting the Status Quo
Becoming a wealthy, healthy, respected and valuable member of society


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> Lostone why do you think I am belittling you?


Dreamer thats not exactly what I said.

The only thing that bothered me was what you said about context.

I have posted evidence that their have been leeks of the truth from people that would know what they are talking about, and in fact the truth has been preached to us right from the white house and from the state of the union address that Bush Sr. gave on September 11 1991 (very nice date by the way, exactly 10 years before 9/11).

It just bothers me to be discredited because of context and yet the context was never posted. Why should I now have to go look up the context for each quote for you. I know what the context of many of those quotes are but I am not going to spend the rest of my life looking up all the evidence and posting it here just so it can be blindly discredited for one reason or another. I think we all have the same amout of responsibility in this world and it is very sad to me that many would choose the path of passionate apathy.

If any of you would just do your own personal examination of the reality around you then you would all realize that you have been living in a fantasy world. If your going to discredit someone then at least do so with some evedence of your own please.

Dreamer I have more respect for you then some of the other people on this thread but you lost some of my respect when you talked about context and then did not bother to elaborate about what the context was. If you would have done so then you would have seen the truth for yourself. And if that truth was really in conflict with what I have been saying then you could have had something really worthy of posting. But I feel like the arguement against me has basically been at about the level of name calling since the begining of this thread and it makes me feel like I am just wasting my time talking to people that don't care to listen to anything except for what they want to believe.

You are not the person I feel is mocking me though Dreamer. I do not think you will dip to that level. Dreamer you simply just did not back up your own words about context. I wish you would go look up some of the context for yourself because if you really looked into this then you would see everything for yourself. Then you can come back here and post about the context whatever that may be :wink: .

Here is one more quote you can look up very quickly because it is from a magazine.

"The invisible Money Power is working to control and enslave mankind. It financed 
Communism, Fascism, Marxism, Zionism, Socialism. All of these are directed to making the United 
States a member of a World Government ..." -- AMERICAN MERCURY MAGAZINE, December 1957, pg. 92.

Dreamer I maybe should have worded my subject for this thread a little diffrent so people would not feel connected to the evil that is taking place in any way. Just because your husband is in the military does not mean that he is responsible for 9/11. The people that know the full truth at the very top of the world are few in number. They are very, very private for the very same reason the illuminati was very private. Just look up the some info about the bilderberg and you will see how private they really are. The bilderberg don't exist if you were to ask any of the members of the bilderberg but now because of the internet you can see videos online that show all of the most powerful people in the world meeting together at these bilderberg meetings.

This video shows some of the people involved, you can see them on film going to a bilderberg meeting for yourself.


If you look up the context then you will find that all of this is even more true then I am able to show you here.

What bothers me Dreamer is that your obviously not looking into any of the context because if you did then you would see that what I am telling you is the truth. The conspiracy is what you see in the news every day.

Anyway Dreamer no hard feelings, it don't bother me that people don't see the same things I see but I only get bothered by the way people act.

By the way if you have never been to Hawaii you should come out here and talk to the people here about WW2, you will hear some very interesting stories expecially from the marshallese people here. I don't want to get into all that though. There are millions of things I could talk about but if people don't want to look into things for themselves then I am totally wasting all of my time anyway. I gotta go.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> Yes, people in power are in charge of things.


What you have just described is called a dictatorship.



> There must always be leaders, and there are always followers.


What is getting mixed up is who the leaders are and who the followers are.


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## Pollyanna 3098 (Dec 12, 2006)

*WHAT !* :?

What point are you trying to make with your final statement.

PLEASE, forgive my ignorance!

Cheers 3098


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

My point is that the American people used to tell their senators, representatives and the president what to do. The American people used to hold the power in this country and Americans used to realize that if they ever handed that power over to the government then it would be abused.

Now the power of the American people is almost totally gone.

Now even free speach is becoming a thing of the past.

So now the American public and the population of the entire world are becoming the followers because all the power is being handed over without a fight.

Some places are used to that kind of a situation like China or N. Korea for example.

Once the American public lose their power over their government then the control of the greatest military power on earth will be totally lost, and placed into the hands of a few evil men. This has basically already happened. I am just trying to bring that to people's attention.

I really don't have an agenda to push and that is why I am basically wasting my time here, I just feel a deep desire to bring things to peoples attention but it seems that many people don't really care anyway.


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## Pollyanna 3098 (Dec 12, 2006)

Ah yes, I see what you mean, you say that people really don't care anymore, well some anyway, there seems to be this, what can only be described as blind faith!

You are right we are the majority, what if we all said, no, we are not going to live by that rule anymore, what could they do to stop us, so yes it does seem that many people really don't care.

We have become to trusting of our governments.

What do you see as the answer to this escalating problem?

Cheers 3098


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> What do you see as the answer to this escalating problem?


Well I have my own personal beliefs and my own agenda and that is really another topic totally. I really don't have an agenda to push in this thread. I am just trying to get people to look into what is going on in this world a little more.

I have answers for myself that I have gotten from my religion, but that is another topic and I am not going to get into that subject becuase it will get out of hand.

As I said, I am just trying to get people to be more aware of what is going on in this world. It just seems sad to me to see everyone acting as robots and not even knowing who is doing the programing. Once people realize that they are being programed then they can choose for themselves what they want to do about it. I am making my choice and that is a religious one.

What you do is up to you, you can just tell yourself you don't care, or you can do something political like send letters to your representatives or you can look toward religion for answers, it is your choice. I don't want to push an agenda here, that would not be a wise thing for me to do. I just want people to take a closer look at what is going on in this world because many very big things are happining that people are not even aware of. If the only thing any of you do is just look a little deeper into this information then I will be happy.



> You are right we are the majority, what if we all said, no, we are not going to live by that rule anymore, what could they do to stop us, so yes it does seem that many people really don't care.


I just also want to point out that there is a line that can be crossed where the majority will lose the power to say no. It has happened many times in history before. Right now we have free speach but when free speach is taken away then I think we will have crossed the line where we will be unable to say no. Because anyone saying no will be breaking the law by that time. This is what is starting to happen now. It is a little unbelievable but it is true, free speach is dieing and it has a lot to do with 9/11.

The biggest loss of power that the American public probably have ever had was when Woodrow Wilson signed the Federal Reserve into existence. That is something that JFK was trying to reverse along with dismantling the CIA. Thats why their are so many stories about JFK and the truth about his death. 
Since Woodrow Wilson put the entire economy of America in the hands of private bankers we have seen more and more conspiracies every day and for good reason. Now President Bush is pushing for the patriot act part 2, that will basically totally do away with the bill of rights. First they took the economy and now they are taking our rights.

By the way Woodrow Wilson was not one of the bad guys as far as I know because he did regret what he was manipulated into doing. 
This is what he said just after he signed in the Federal Reserve.

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson, after signing the Federal Reserve into existence

But now even worse things are happining because we are crossing that line, that point of no return.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

I will leave you all with a list of some names of people you can contact for more information about all this if you are really interested.

This is mostly for credibility reasons, I just figure it would show some credibility if you all could have a few names of people in Washington that are against the New World Order. These people all believe that 9/11 was an inside Job. Well I am pretty sure thats what they believe anyway.

Here are three people you can write to about all this if you really want to.

Congresswoman Barbara Lee of California http://lee.house.gov/
Congressman Ron Paul of Texas http://www.house.gov/paul/
Congresswoman Cynthia Mckinney of Georgia http://www.house.gov/mckinney/

Ron Paul's website actually has some good info on it you all might want to read. Also his video of him speaking at the house is really good but it is about an hour long, he does make some comments about what is going on though if you have the time to watch it. It is a little scary but it is the truth.

Those three people have spoken out many times against what the NWO is doing. Alex Jones has two of them on film talking about many of the things I have been posting in this thread. These people are not crazy, they are Congress men and women and they are saying the same things I have been saying here.

And I think everyone needs to keep this speech in mind, no matter what happens.

This is a famous free speech clip from Mario Savio of the Free Speech Movement many years ago. We should keep this speech in our minds because free speech it dieing. This is only 1 min long so everyone should have the time to view this. http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeche ... lsitin.htm

In that speech he explains what he would do in the face of evil. I think that speech should be burnt into all of our minds because what he was fearing is now happining.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

*Lostone*, man these discussions get addicting, but there is nothing wrong in our not agreeing on something. This is a debate. Again, I don't mean to insult anyone, and get defensive at times.

*What I meant by contex is HISTORICAL CONTEXT in general. That is words stated 50 years ago must be understood within the context of the events and history going on at the time is all. Also, the world changes so quickly internationally, a policy that works one day, might be a disaster two months down the line.*

And you have WAY too many quotations there for me to respond to all of them, and they are mixed in with things I simply don't believe in. I'd spend a month trying to respond.

There wouldn't be so many political parties (and disagreements WITHIN those parties) if there weren't great disagreement on how to handle domestic policy and foreign policy, and in this world -- so technologically advanced -- things move at the speed of light.

I saw Zbigniew Brzezinski (Polish-American political scientist, geostrategist, and statesman. <------ had to steal that from Wiki as I couldn't spell his name, lol) on Charlie Rose last night. He was National Security Advisor to Carter, and has assisted various Presidents since in various positions. He's now a professor at Johns Hopkins or something. And yes, born in Poland, educated in Canada.

He was EXTREMELY critical of this Bush administration on the show -- brutal. He said literally that the Iraq war and our stance on the Israeli/Palestinian situation is AWFUL, and this could change the course of history re: America as a world power. We have lost our respect and legitimacy around the world. That's the God's honest truth. He thinks that China is the next great power. And he isn't the only one. It looks like this era in our history is resulting in the fall of the US as "the greatest world power."

Who knows. What he said made a lot of sense. But he could be completely wrong. Who knows? History changes in a flash. Someone dies. A new movement springs up somewhere. History is both predictable and unpredictable.

He had some solutions, but wasn't sure about them -- if they would even work, if they were too late to implement. He flat out said, that Bush has no knowledge of history or foreign policy. THAT I've said all along. It is obvous he has great disdain for Bush and said so. Right out in the open on PBS. He finds US Foreign Policy very short-sighted, not looking far enough into the future. But that is true of MANY countries in the world.

So, what I'm saying is ... in 100 years from now ... who KNOWS how the history books will write about Bush. There will be "first hand sources", "primary sources" written by people such as Brzezinski (yes I had to cut and paste that name). But Bush will be quoted. Some of the quotations may sound profound, others idiotic, and again, will be misunderstood by future generations.

I love this quotation, "If you ain't got no philosophy, you ain't got no rules." I agree, but it was said by Squeaky Fromme who was a member of Charles Manson's murderous cult, LOL. You have to be careful whom you quote and where and when, lol.

I VERY much liked what Z.B. had to say last night. But he is a controversial figure. He has been criticized by his "hawkish" beliefs on one hand, but for instance was for the dissidents in East Germany (who unltimately were able to tear down the Berlin Wall) w/the fall of the Soviet Union. He is very supportive of his Slavic roots and of his homeland.

And politicians/leaders/advisors can change their POVs over a lifetime. *Again, neoconservatives -- all that means is they are people who used to be liberal, socialist, even communist who have become conservative. It is now used as slang that means nothing. Ronald Reagan was a neoconservative.* It just means switching from a liberal to a conservative, changing one's political views for one reason or another. It's not a crime.

I'm just saying HISTORICAL context.

Finally, Ron Paul, you mentioned is a cool guy. I admire him. He is a Repulican/Libertarian, but actually ran on the Libertarian ticket? I think, for President at one time.  It sounds if you are perhaps a Libertarian. I have some of those views, but Libertarianism can get extreme -- which is the complete elimination of government, which to me is completely illogical. I can't help it. I've thought of it for a long time, and I can't see it working.

It is actually called "Anarchism" -- and dear God, as far as I can see, will indeed result in anarchy. The whole place will go to Hell. I believe Martin made this analogy when he was making a funny analogy about everyone in each individual household having their own leader and their own way of interacting with others.

Again, my problem ... I am not an idealist. I got into a huge argument with someone over this and we no longer speak. Which is really stupid and sad. But I do not believe in the innate goodness of human beings, and I do not believe we are all equally intelligent, motivated, healthy, etc.

Not everyone is a leader. Many are followers. I could never be a leader. I have too many issues. I'm tired all the time. Bill Clinton sleeps about 4 hours a night and gets 800 things done in a day. He's actually a very bright man.

So to finish this up. I sense you are a Libertarian, and I can't respond to so much information, but also information that is put alongside stuff like,

"How could some poor Muslims (forgot what you said) get together the 9/11 plot." I can't remember all these guys, but they were middle class. They "hid in plain sight". They took flying courses here in America. What they did is fiendishly NOT that complicated. Planes have been hijacked before MANY Times. All they did was fly them into buildings. One flight instructor who warned about these guys (they fooled their way into flight simulation classes -- they speak English, they forged ID, passports, whatever) said I think about one guy *he only wants to learn how to fly the plane, not land or take off.*

So again, when you come back with some statement like that, I have to consider that as something I simply don't believe in and can't respond to.

OK, I have to stop. I get SO damned addicted to these discussions.

*And Wendy, please get over the flu. The worst thing!*

I am not a conspiracy theorist, I am not an idealist, and I haven't the faintest idea of what we're supposed to do now in terms of foreign policy. I think both Ron Paul and Z.B. (last night) have some good ideas. But if they are implemented -- will they work, or will they fail. WE DON'T KNOW.

And JFK -- this is profound, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." -- I think that's correct. And he was assasinated by a lunatic -- NO CONSPIRACY -- if you read "Case Closed" or anything about Oswald you will know the guy was an absolute nut and a loser. What would have happened if JFK had lived? We will never know.

When a celebrity is murdered by a deranged stalker we don't say it's a conspiracy, and politicians, world leaders are frequently the victims of assassins for many reasons. JFK was killed by a mentally ill man who grew up in a very dysfunctional family.

How much has the course of history been changed by one small thing?

And some people found JFK to be a great man. Others disagreed with his policies.

And again, "History is doomed to repeat itself."
That I'd say is true. I've seen it in my lifetime and looking back at the past. We are imperfect human beings.

Shalom, Pax,
Greetings of the Season!
D


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> "How could some poor Muslims (forgot what you said) get together the 9/11 plot." I can't remember all these guys, but they were middle class. They "hid in plain sight". They took flying courses here in America. What they did is fiendishly NOT that complicated. Planes have been hijacked before MANY Times. All they did was fly them into buildings. One flight instructor who warned about these guys (they fooled their way into flight simulation classes -- they speak English, they forged ID, passports, whatever) said I think about one guy he only wants to learn how to fly the plane, not land or take off.


What is amazing about 9/11 is that usually when any plane at all goes off its flight path for even a few moments it will quickly be intercepted by fighter jets just in case they need to shoot it down. But on 9/11 NORAD was ordered to stand down and not scramble fighters. Also they just happened to be runing a test that same day of the exact event that took place. So many people thought that the events of 9/11 were part of the test. That is one hell of a coincidence if you ask me, expecially since they now say that nobody ever imagined that anything like that could ever happen!

How can they say that nobody ever imagined that it would ever happen if they were actually running a test of hijacked planes being flown into the WTC at the exact same time it was happining?

That is why it is so unreal. Because the official story is simply impossible no matter what details you want to focus on. It is totally beyond fiction. That is why I figure they could have just blamed 9/11 on the Galactic Empire from Star Wars and the story would be just as believable. Notice how retarded our intelligence was about everything in a magical way but when it came time to provide a list of bad guys they needed no time at all to know exactly who those bad guys were. Pretty amazing comming from our magically retarded intelligence agencies don't you think?

Yes the intelligence goes from totally magically retarded to Sherlock Holmes on steroids in just a matter of hours. How amazing! One moment they know nothing at all, not even where NORAD is or where any fighter jets are or even where the president is or how to contact him for over an hour, and then they instantainiously somehow know every aspect and detail of the crime that just took place. Amazing! Amazing! Amazing!

I must be tripping on Acid.



> It sounds if you are perhaps a Libertarian.


No LOL I am not even sure what that Libertarian is supposed to mean.
I am planning to become a Jehovah's Witness whenever I can get my life in order and face my fears. Jehovah's Witnesses would not even take part in a topic like this. I never vote and I never really talk about political issues because of my religious belief of being no part of the world in a political and spiritual way. 
If I were a Jehovah's Witness now then I would not have posted this thread I don't think. But I only did so because this information is pretty amazing to me and it really is unreal to me that people don't even take any of this seriously.

This really is kind of a political thread I guess and since I don't really have a political opinion but only a religious one, I really should not have posted this thread in the first place. But like you said this topic is a little addicting in a way and it is hard for me to keep silent about things sometimes. I just really don't like to see people being deceived and my only real goal in this thread is just for people to look a little more into the info about 9/11 before you become to sure of the official story.

I listed those names of people in congress because they are the only people I know of in congress that seem to be suggesting that 9/11 was an inside job. I just wanted people to realize that it is not just conspirators that are suggesting this.

I really need to get off this thread now.

Dreamer I don't have a political opinion. I personally believe that God is going to do away with all the governments on earth soon so none of this really is that big of a deal to me as far as any agenda is concerned. This is all just very interesting and amazing to me, but I am not worried about anything and I don't really care about the politics because of my belief that politics will not be around for very long anyway.

What does matter to me is basically just that people have knowledge of what is going on. I just wish there were no lies in this world, I hate lies.

I really should get off this topic I think. 
I am just going to have to not even read anything in this thread anymore. This topic is to addicting and I am the wrong person to be talking about this issue because of my religion. My religion don't take part in conspiracies or politics so I should not be talking about this anyway  .

I really should have never started this thread in the first place  .


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

> How can they say that nobody ever imagined that it would ever happen if they were actually running a test of hijacked planes being flown into the WTC at the exact same time it was happening?


OK, I've got to stop this, lolololol.

1. The military is scrambling endlessly. This happens every day. They are preparing for any attack scenario. They are preparing for military actions that occur from attacks coming in from OUTSIDE the country. And they don't always carry weapons. If you see the film "United 93" you would see how confused and disorganized they were. How difficult it was to get an OK for "rules of engagement". You can't shoot down a passenger aircraft without full knowledge of what's going on. They didn't KNOW what was going on.

The military is performing all sorts of practice missions as we speak. They have to warn commercial airports of this all the time. They change civilian air flight courses as a result.

2. The problem is, after the Cold War, we cut down on *domestic* defense. I think it was Clinton who cut back significantly on that. We were focusing on terrorist activities OUTSIDE the US.

3. If you don't know what a Libertarain is, you don't know who Ron Paul is. You state you don't know that much about politics. I only know a fraction, but as you say, if this is a religious discussion, you should have said so from the beginning.

I am not religious. Perhaps that affects my POV as well. Well, obviously it does!

Please see the film "United 93". Beware of other films by similar names. This was directed by Paul? Greengrass. A Brit. It is a GREAT film. And it will fall into obscurity because, as I see it, many people don't want to see what I see as the truth. And the truth is painful. The film is so sad and frightening. But it was nominated by the NYTimes Critics as Best Picture of the Year. It will not be recognized by Hollywood at all. It cuts too close to the bone.

We were NOT prepared for 9/11. It is difficult for us to understand that. But we weren't. That is not a conspiracy. No one ever expected a terrorist plot of such magnitude. There hadn't been a hijacking of a plane in some 30 years. No, we were NOT prepared.

Yipes, Lostone, if you don't know what a Libertarian is, and you are using Ron Paul as an example (who is a Libertarian), you have to understand my doubts about what you say. That stuns me. If you want to get rid of government, you are a Libertarian. There is a Libertarain party in the US which received only 25,000 votes in the last election. But my husband voted Libertarian as a protest vote. He hated both Bush and Kerry.

At any rate, no hard feelings. If this is indeed a religious discussion, which no one realized, well, there really is nothing more to say.

I wish you would look at the few recommendations I've given.

Jules and Gideon Naudet's documentary 9/11, Paul Greengrass' film "United 93" -- do NOT mistake either for other films by the same name. And read Bernard Lewis, "The Crisis of Islam" -- you said someone else recommended this to you.

If you have time to look up conspiracy theories, you might have time to read one brief book, 169 pages of easy reading vs. some other books I've tried to read by Thomas Friedman and one by George Packer.

We all need to be informed on many fronts. And my knowledge of politics and history is weak, I admit it, but it is strong enough to support many of my anti-conspiracy theories on some very specific events, especially 9/11 which caught everyone off-guard.

Please have a look at the other POV. And all of this material can be taken out of a library -- books. And the DVDs can be rented for $3.00/piece at a video store.

You started a good discussion, but if this was ultimately based on a religious POV, no wonder we're all confused.

As I said, history, politics, human behavior is as complex as the operation of the human brain -- and the human brain may never be fully understood.

OK, then I guess it's time to stop.
Best,
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Also, published for all Americans to see is the 9/11 Commission Report. It isn't pretty. It is a long read. I've gone through sections. It reveals faults at all levels of government, security measures, evacuation procedures, fire and police response, military response.

This is insane but true. George Bush had to be whisked away onto Airforce One as we thought we may be at war. His whereabouts had to be secret. This is common practice. Cheney was hidden in a bunker somewhere for the same reasons. They had difficulty communicating WITH EACH OTHER. That is absolutely inexcusable. Comunications from ALL of these organizations the FAA, NORAD, etc., etc. was abysmal.

"Rules of engagement" can only be OKd by the President, and they couldn't get in touch with him or the Vice President or anyone else. Ultimately the FAA made its own decisions. So did the air defense folks.

We thought initially we were at war. I certainly did. And we were NOT prepared. We were arrogant.

*The whole thing was one mess of confusion. If anything air traffic controllers were the heroes of this, as were firefighters.

I can't remember who demanded all planes be grounded, and all incoming planes from other countries be sent home or to Canada, but I believe it was someone with the FAA who made that dramatic call. At first any plane remotely suspicious in its actions was followed closely, and controllers became overwhelmed, and scared.

These people took charge. They were WITNESSING what was happening. They were doing what they were taught to do. Air Traffic Controllers are very bright people. They have to be. And it was their boss, or some higher up who took all the planes out of the sky. I don't know who got the few fighter planes to scramble, but they had only minutes to react, and were likewise confused.*

If you don't know these things, you can't understand my side of the story. And hence we can't debate the conspiracies.

OK, DONE, DONE, DONE, LOL.
D


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> If this is indeed a religious discussion


No this is not about religion.

This is just news in my eyes I guess.

But maybe I am wrong.

I have done many drugs at a young age.

That is why I am on dpselfhelp.com anyway :shock: .

Whatever, I have to get out of this thread.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> but you lost some of my respect when you talked about context and then did not bother to elaborate about what the context was


You lose respect for someone because of this? Hells stink bells. You must have a hard day respecting anyone, or anything. It must be exhausting.



> You are not the person I feel is mocking me though Dreamer.


It's me, isn't it.



> I do not think you will dip to that level.


Yes it is me.  Heaven forbid we gentle mock the conspiracy theorists. If not them, then who ? Handicapped people?


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> Yes it is me. Heaven forbid we gentle mock the conspiracy theorists. If not them, then who ? Handicapped people?


 :shock:

What would dpselfhelp do without Martinelv?



> You lose respect for someone because of this? Hells stink bells. You must have a hard day respecting anyone, or anything. It must be exhausting.


Yes actually that is true, I do find it hard to respect anyone. *I do try very hard though.*


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

http://www.serendipity.li/wtc.htm

For all of your 9/11 conspiracy theory needs :twisted:

In all honesty though, there's a few things I found off about the story they gave us about 9/11:

1. Heavily edited by the spin doctors = can't really trust what they said happened.

2. America simply stood too much to gain from the whole thing. People were killed and 2 buildings were destroyed, yes, but they got to invade Iraq and claim Trillions of dollars worth of Oil, countless Millions made in "Rebuilding Iraq" deals etc etc.

3. If you don't think the US government could organise a conspiracy like this (disregarding other similar event e.g. JFK while you're at it) then how can you believe Al Qaieda could pull off something of this magnitude?

I'm not saying I totally believe everything on that website, but I don't believe everything I see on TV either.

Also, I feel more free to talk about it bluntly like this because I'm not in the U.S. TBH if I was I'd be slightly more worried in light of recent developments regarding people's rights to free speech.


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Dreamer said:


> We were NOT prepared for 9/11. It is difficult for us to understand that. But we weren't. That is not a conspiracy. No one ever expected a terrorist plot of such magnitude. There hadn't been a hijacking of a plane in some 30 years. No, we were NOT prepared.


Despite numerous reports apparently crossing the President's desk over the MONTHS prior to the actual event :roll:

Seriously, the US government, according to them, WAS aware of possible terrorist attacks but DID NOTHING.

Either they are bumbling fools or they were in on the game.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> If you don't think the US government could organise a conspiracy like this (disregarding other similar event e.g. JFK while you're at it) then how can you believe Al Qaieda could pull off something of this magnitude?


It is very ironic how people think about things don't you agree CECIL?

By the way, for any of you that don't fully trust the news on T.V. these days, you can goto this website http://blacklistednews.com/index.asp that is a news website and not a conspiracy site. It just shows all the news that the main media does not show. Soon these kinds of websites might be harder to view because a law might be passed soon that will change the internet in a major way. That law will make the internet much more like T.V. and Radio.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Sigh, I come down to "That's Life" to post something else and this is still going on.

- YES, we are bumbling fools. How is it America is full of blind idiots, yet we have conspired a far more complicated thing than the REAL event that occurred.
- In saying that Muslims are incapable of carrying out terrorism you imply they aren't bright enough to do what they did. To be honest, it wasn't that diffiicult.

There are other resources besides commercial Television and the Internet.

READ BOOKS on the history of the Middle East, say that were written BEFORE this happened. Watch good documentaries. Listen to good talking head programs. Watch BBC, CBC, and Middle Eastern programs. These are all available through Public Television.

I am astounded by ignorance. I am astounded by lack of open-mindedness. LostOne in particular, you lost me, as I said, when you admited you don't know much about politics at all. You don't know what a Libertarian is, you don't know how books are published. If you don't know those two things, yet spend time reading conspiracy sites your POV is severely limited.

It is impossible to have a rational discussion with someone who believes in conspiracies.

Oh, and yes, many papers passed through many hands re: indications that 9/11 would happen. This had been planned BY OSAMA BIN LADEN and his minions for quite some time. Yet, you can have a million clues and not be certain about something. And you can have poor communication between many parts of government. It's called BUREUACRACY sp?! sorry. Dear God in Heaven.

Even someone who is young should know some of these things.

You don't give terrorists the credit for their dedication to their own cause.

Bush used 9/11 as a cause to invade Iraq, yes, but he didn'nt CREATE the event to invade Iraq. Why take the most irrational POV.

I just don't understand it.

And no, I'm not a blind fool. I actually READ books. Tell me the last book any of you read on Islamic history that had nothing to do with 9/11, and did any of you read the 9/11 Commission Report. All of our failures are noted there. Including terrible communication.

I'm starting to wonder if the US actually exists or it is a shape-shifting alien conspiracy.

And finally, if there are all these conspiracies, well DO SOMETHING ABOUT THEM. What is all the crabbing about. Take some action folks. Go RESEARCH and show me all of these facts.

The internet is as full of bullshit propaganda as well.

This is absolutely ludicrous.
Lostone, you say you don't know much about politics, foreign affairs, history, etc. Then how in GOD's name can you have this discussion.

This would be like my arguing String Theory with a physicist.

My GOD, I give up. There is no debate here. No give and take. You refuse to read what I suggest, though you ask anyone else to read YOUR side of the story.

:roll:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Also, if this information is on the internet, then it isn't "hidden". In other countries, such as China, and Russia, the media is restricted, the interenet is restricted.

AND, how do you know what is on the internet ISN'T PLANTED by the same people that are planting all other forms of propaganda. None of this makes any sense WHEN YOU REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.

And no, we are not getting billions of dollars of oil, if anything this is forcing us to look into alternative energy. This is a "holy war" a jihad declared by Bin Laden back in 1997 or 1998. All Americans should die. This is OLD stuff going back to the final defeat of Islamic power and influence in the early 1900s, very early, forgot the date.

Islamic states are unification of "Mosque and State" -- we attempt to keep "Church and State" separate. This is in many ways a war of Eastern religion vs. Western secularism (and this is very simplified). Also we are hated for supporting Israel.

You have TO READ SOME FREAKIN' BOOKS, JOURNALS, TAKE SOME HISTORY COURSES, to understand even a little of this.

AND AGAIN, IF YOU REALLY BELIEVE ALL THIS CRAP OF CONSPIRACIES, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. ALL THERE IS IS TALK AND NOONE DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

I can't read this section anymore, it infuriates me.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Dreamer - all I can say is.....and I swore that I never would....

Every word you just said is absolutely positively spot on. Let that be the end of it!!


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> I can't read this section anymore, it infuriates me.


 

Dreamer I think what CECIL was trying to point out is that although it may be possible for Ossama to have planed 9/11 by himself, it would be far more possible for the US to plan and carry out 9/11. For some reason some people act like it would be impossible for the US government to plan 9/11 out and to make the plan become a reality. If it is impossible for the US govenment to do this then how is it possible for Ossama to do it by himself?

The only reason it is assumed impossible is because of the idea that all the people in the US govenment and the people of power in the world are good people and that they are not evil enough to do something like this.

Have you ever heard of a place called Rwanda?

What about Operation Northwoods?

The people in power are so bold that they actually say directly to your face that they plan to kill you and all you do is defend these people.

Think about it.

Here is a quote that is taken from these very people.

"the plan, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; *planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer [Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff] and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, all they needed to launch their war."*

That is from Operation Northwoods.

Dreamer you can either face what that says or you can go into a rage and not believe in reality.

The facts about Operation Northwoods came out at a very odd time, just before 9/11. This is not coincidence, these facts came out at that time for a reason.

Here is a link that talk's about how Operation Northwoods may actually have been wrote by someone in the UK http://www.public-action.com/911/northwds.html. What is an obvious fact is that Operation Northwoods is not denied by the US government. So here we have the US govenment admitting a plan to hijack planes and blame it on quba.

These people are not angles Dreamer, they are the most powerful men in the world and what do you think they want more then anything?
To be nice and loveing towards all?
Or to obtain and maintain as much power as possible?

These people tell you right to your face that they have had plans to kill you.

Operation Northwoods
Operation Northwoods
Operation Northwoods

I believe that the truth about this is in the open because it is all part of the disinformation. Like I said, they put out false and truethful info so that people get confused and build up a huge amount of cognitive dissonance then those people will believe anything because of the automatic human response to make quick sense out of something that is complicated or confusing. That is why there are so many conspiracies about area 51, yes area 51 exists and their is a base their but I seriously doubt that their are aliens at that base. Those stories are just disinformation so that people will not wonder about whats really going on at that base. 
The Russians used the same tactics on their people, so have the Germans along with many, many other countries.

I am not stupid Dreamer, I know the basics about politics and I have a very basic understaning of what a libertarian is but I would not say that I have a knowledge of *public politics *as deeply as you do thats why I said what I said. I have known for a very long time that public politics is all just a show and republicans and democrats are all working for the same people. Thats why I don't even care really about the public show that is going on. The people in power of this world call the masses of this world "sheeple", Bill Clinton has even called the American public "sheeple" publicly before and to be totally honest I do not blame them. If I was in power I think I would find it very hard to resist useing that word myself.

Put 9/11 aside for a moment and ask yourself if you really think that the people ruling the world are really good and decent people. Is that really honestly what you believe? And if you believe in history and you believe that power almost always corrupts human beings then why put so much faith in anything these people say to you? Why not take 5 or 6 looks before you believe what they say to you. The last thing I will ever believe is what the people in power of this world wish to tell me. I do not think there are any bigger or better liers on earth then those people that are leading the world.

But maybe I have slipped into the twilight zone. Although I am not stupid, I have done a lot of drugs and I know that I am a bit messed up in my head.

Maybe the leaders of this world are really angels after all.
Maybe WW1 and WW2 were the rapture that some religions preach about.
People don't just accidentally start hating one another and nations don't just accidentally goto war with each other. The people of power do not care about the "little things" they care about POWER! If they have to kill a few of their own people to gain power then they will not even flinch.

This is why I don't like to take part in politics. I only care about the news. But I do resist this evil, I want nothing to do with it but I will also not go along with it. Dreamer if you want to do something political to change the world then go right ahead. My only goal is to try to inform people about things. And I never do this unless I have spent a great deal of time to gather the facts for myself so that I am not taking part in the lies by accident.

Why are you so eager to defend the people that have the most power in this world? These are the last people we should be eager to defend but people in the west have been conditioned and brainwashed so that the defence of these powerful people is automatic.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. "

-Benjamin Franklin

Do you know why he said that?
Think about it.

Maybe Benjamin was just as crazy as I am.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> have a very basic understaning of what a libertarian is


 

Yes, I'm afraid you don't. A libertarian is someone who, to be frank, doesn't give a s**t how many lies our politicians tell us, because we already know they are lies to begin with. Neo-con's and so forth actually believe the mantra, and knowingly accept the lies as par-for-the-course to succeed in their aims.

Astonishing. Libertarians, such as I, sleep well at night, because they know they are not party to the filthly lies and distortion of reality that the neo-cons wallow in so readily. They sleep well knowing that the world is going to s**t because the vast majorty of people are happy being lied to, and because most, if not all, liberals are democratic at the core, despair at the insanity of politics, hold their hands up - smile at the madness, and let everyone get one with it. Yes, - us sweat-palmed liberals know exactly what is going on, and we while we despair at it all, while the rest of you are charging down the politic path with your 'agenda's' that will make absolutely-no-f*****g difference, except to make things worse, we just relax in the knowledge that we will be dead someday, and we wont be around to witness to consequences of the madness of the neo-con agenda.

Selfish? Yes. It is. I eat meat. Life is short. I havent' got the time, will, or inclination to forecably point out the utter, UTTER, insanity of it. Luckily, I'll die before I have to witness the consequences of this planets current political agenda. Yes. That is selfish.

And I don't care. :lol:


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

Martinelv you are funny.



> A libertarian is someone who, to be frank, doesn't give a s**t how many lies our politicians tell us, because we already know they are lies to begin with.


Maybe if I considered myself political at all then I would call myself a libertarian but I have religious and not just political reasons to try and stay out of the politics of this world. But I do care about whats going on, I just don't want to take part in it. I don't want to be an aid to the liers. I wish only to talk about the news, I leave the politics to everyone else.



> Selfish? Yes. It is. I eat meat. Life is short. I havent' got the time, will, or inclination to forecably point out the utter, UTTER, insanity of it. Luckily, I'll die before I have to witness the consequences of this planets current political agenda. Yes. That is selfish.


  And here I am loosing sleep over the poor boys and girls killed in Rwanda

By the way, for anyone that wants to see the truth.

Here is the truth from ABC, it is not often you will find the truth at ABC but here it is. http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1

Notice the date, May 1, 2001 interesting don't you think. 
I wonder why they chose to declassify that information at that time :shock: ?

It is called disinformation.

They put that information out because they knew that it would make people be less able to believe the truth. It is basic brainwashing psychology.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

I'm glad I'm amuse you LOSTONE. Truely, I really am. I can't stop wars, or alien invasions, or energy vibrations, but at least I can take the piss out of everyone. And I'm glad.



> Maybe if I considered myself political at all then I would call myself a libertarian but I have religious and not just political reasons to try and stay out of the politics of this world. But I do care about whats going on, I just don't want to take part in it. I don't want to be an aid to the liers


The word you are looking for is 'oxymoron'. Embrace it my friend. You'll realise that life without the burdon of.....every other person on the planet who is suffering more (if it is not relative) than you weighing on your mind, is the only path that you can travel. And keep yourself sane.

Our 'intelligence' is not designed to comprehend the absolute madness going on around us. So just sit back, smile at it, and try and make your own life as purposeful as you can.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

Martinelv

Actually I think you just gave me some very good advice.

I used to be a lot like you and I wish I were like you now because then I would be much more happy.

I don't want to be totally apathetic but I think I do make myself sick sometimes.

Really I think that I really needed someone to tell me what you just said to me.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

Thanks Martinelv.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Well, I'm glad Martin was of help here, LOLOLOLOLOL. OMG. This is hysterical at this point.

But LostOne, did you know that in the Qu'ran (there are 800 ways to spell it) that Moses, and Jesus are considered prophets? Both the Old Testament and the New Testament are considered prophesies for the coming of the Prophet Muhammed (pick a spelling) who is a real historical individual who conquered HUGE areas of the land which is now called Europe, the Middle East, Africa. in the 600s I believe. He did so in the name of Allah.

It is believed by those who believe in Islam that the Qu'ran is the final word on God. How does that make you feel as a Christian. Islam is considered far superior to Christianity. By many people in this world. Islam is a religion in MANY countries. There are those in the US, and Europe who are Muslim, who practice Islam. And they aren't idiots, or incompetent people.

Also, no I don't believe all people in power are good, but I also don't believe all people NOT in power are good. It depends on the person.

And if you want to look at the Hell that is going on in Africa, make note that much of it is tribal warfare. And amazingly this mess in Palestine/Israel/Jordan, WHAT A MESS, right now there are TWO factions in Palestine terrorizing each other as to who should be in power, Hamas or the traditional government.

These are civilians fighting against civilians, just as was the Irish Liberation Army, etc. in Britain.

Human beings fight human beings. It is not just governments. Countries are made up of PEOPLE, INDIVIDUALS.

OK, I swear this I'm done.
I come off as a bitch, and I swear I'm not.
Martin told me to stop while I was ahead anyway.

I don't care to act politically myself, but I want to understand.

My feeling is one day we'll all be speaking Chinese anyway, or we will have blown ourselves up. Does it matter then?

I swear, my cousin said, that the attacks happened on 9/11 because 9-1-1 is the phone number you dial to get the police. :?: Oh, and yes the terrorists did mess up. United 93 that was intended to hit the White House got stranded in traffic on the ground. The timing of the attacks was off as a result. Meantime, if you believe this, and you don't, the passengers, knowing they would die anyway, possibly helped bring the plane down. It crashed in PA killing everyone aboard.

What purpose would that serve in the whole plot? If the White House HAD been destroyed by a plane, would you have believed in this any more or any less?

And did you see the doctored images on the Internet of Bin Laden in the smoke rising above the WTC?

I keep trying to refute what YOU'RE saying LostOne. Does it not show that I have done my OWN research and am NOT a blind sheep, accepting everything I hear? I don't understand you.

I give up. I give up. I throw in the towel.
I'm glad Martin is a soothing presense for you. LOL. 8)


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Yes I was in fact pointing out that if you can believe Osama organised it then its equally as likely that the Bush administration organised it.

Ultimately we will never know the truth. Why? Becuase the US Government NEVER TELLS ITS COUNTRY THE TRUTH.

Examples?

JFK Assassination - Inquiries and documents related to it were sealed and NOT OPEN FOR PUBLIC PERUSAL for a number of years. When they were finally revealed they had information ERASED so that the public couldn't see it.

Roswell - Similar situations.

9/11 - Information and enquiries not open for public perusal. The only thing the public heard about it was through news channels owned and/or highly edited by the people in power (i.e. You only hear what they want you to hear).

George Bush gets his day in court and REFUSES to take the oath, thus giving him the right to lie as much as he wants.

Why?

"In the interest of national security".

In other words, there are things they don't want you to know. They want to hold power over you. They don't want you to know the truth because you may do something "stupid" like actually living your own life free of the control of external sources.

Dreamer you said that we should do something about it. Damn right I do every day. But its not looking up the facts and trying to convince you that I'mn right, because honestly it doesn't affect me if you believe me or not.

What I do is live my life the way I want to, free of external control. Its not your President or your government or your bible or even your TV that should tell you how to live, its YOU.

Don't believe everything you read in books, see on TV or the internet. Everything has a bias, everything has an agenda (Yes even this post  ).

Everyone got really up in arms about 9/11. Honestly the only reason it affected me was because I dreaded the future consequences, i.e. War on Iraq, WWIII, tighter controls on how we live.

I just decided not to play the game any more. They can do their thing and I'll do mine.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> George Bush gets his day in court and REFUSES to take the oath, thus giving him the right to lie as much as he wants.


LOL

That is actually very funny to me.

CECIL what you said about choosing your own path I think is a good idea but I personally choose to follow the bible. I make that choice though because I agree with what the bible says.

Dreamer why all this info about Muslims? I have a good friend that is a Muslim and I have read the Qu'ran, so I have a pretty good idea of what Muslims believe already. I have found some of their ideas to be very contradicting, for example they believe that the bible is the word of God but they also believe that much of what the bible says is wrong because men have changed it. This is a contradicting belief in my eyes. (I don't want to get into a talk about religion though) I just want you to be aware that I know plenty about Muslims and about Muhammad. I really don't what this has to do with this thread though.

Actually I am trying to get the Jehovah's Witnesses in contact with my Muslim friend in Dubai right now because she has asked me to help her contact them, just FYI. It is my hope that maybe someday she will become a Jehovah's Witness herself because she obviously sees some problems with the teachings of Islam.



> It is believed by those who believe in Islam that the Qu'ran is the final word on God. How does that make you feel as a Christian.


How should it make me feel?
The bible says I should have love for everyone, so that is how I feel. If I feel anything other then love then I am not truely a Christian anyway.



> did you know that in the Qu'ran (there are 800 ways to spell it) that Moses, and Jesus are considered prophets?


Ok just real quick, the bible says that Jesus and Moses were prophets also. Here is what the word means, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophet
Although in the bible, God directly says that Jesus is his son and Muslims do not believe this. Some people believe that Jesus is God (part of a trinity) and that is blasphemous in the eyes of Muslims as it is also blasphemous in my eyes because both Muslims and Jehovah's Witnesses believe that only God is deserving of our worship. I just wanted to clear that up.



> There are those in the US, and Europe who are Muslim, who practice Islam. And they aren't idiots, or incompetent people.


Who is calling them idiots?



> Also, no I don't believe all people in power are good, but I also don't believe all people NOT in power are good. It depends on the person.


My point about Power is that even good people are usually corrupted by it. Not everyone though, everyone is diffrent but the basic fact is that power is very corrupting and people often become very evil in order to obtain and maintain power. People in positions of power are the last people I will trust, unless they have shown me that they are very trustworthy and honest.



> And if you want to look at the Hell that is going on in Africa


Oh no, not another never ending topic! We could talk about Africa forever and never change anything there. The sad and most basic fact about Afica is that many people don't care about Africans. Racism is probably Africa's biggest problem, that's what I think anyway. Racism between Africans and Racism toward Africa from the rest of the world. There is not much point in saying anything more then that.



> Human beings fight human beings. It is not just governments. Countries are made up of PEOPLE, INDIVIDUALS.


Most INDIVIDUALS on earth are very easy to brainwash.
And who do you think does the brainwashing?
There is just way to much information for me to get into here.



> I come off as a bitch, and I swear I'm not


LOL
Dreamer I think that you are a pretty nice COB  . Really I don't have any bad thoughts about you Dreamer.



> I swear, my cousin said, that the attacks happened on 9/11 because 9-1-1 is the phone number you dial to get the police.


They have actually said that on the news before. But those numbers have a lot of meaning to people in the occult and for numerologist not Muslims. Most Muslims are not really into Numerology as far as I know. I am not an expert on Islam though.



> What purpose would that serve in the whole plot? If the White House HAD been destroyed by a plane, would you have believed in this any more or any less?


Actually I think that plane was targeting the capitol building in D.C. I am really glad that did not happen because then we would be in even more of a dictatorship right now.



> I keep trying to refute what YOU'RE saying LostOne. Does it not show that I have done my OWN research and am NOT a blind sheep, accepting everything I hear? I don't understand you.


Hay it was Bill Clinton that called the American public "sheeple", direct your confusion toward him.



> I'm glad Martin is a soothing presense for you. LOL.


This place really would not be the same without Martin around.



> give up. I give up. I throw in the towel.


I WIN, I WIN  .

I ALWAYS WIN!!

LOL.

Just kidding :lol: .

That was just funny how you said that.

I gave up a long time ago, why am I here?
I guess I have nothing better to do, I need to get a job.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> This place really would not be the same without Martin around.


Now, there are two ways to take that.....


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## Pollyanna 3098 (Dec 12, 2006)

Yer, who else would we have to wind up and run round and round in circles with?

Talk about distraction!

Hey, You are not part of some government conspiracy are you?

I am sure I can find a link somewhere, will get back to you 

Cheers 3098


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

> Yer, who else would we have to wind up and run round and round in circles with?


Oh, has it all been a wind up? The joke's on me.


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> Hey, You are not part of some government conspiracy are you?


I would not be surprised. Martin is probably an MI5 agent.

I would expect them to keep an eye on a place like dpselfhelp.

Just think about it, Martin don't have DP or DR but he puts up more posts then anyone here. It's called propaganda. There is someone else here from the CIA but that person never posts anything, he is just watching us :shock: .



> Oh, has it all been a wind up? The joke's on me.


See he acts as if it's all just a joke but he is actually dead serious about his job.

Just look at his avatar, totally something an MI5 agent would have for an avatar.

Even Dreamer must agree with this conspiracy.

:lol:


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## Cam (Dec 13, 2006)

Yes Yes, it seems as if he is just sitting there all the time waiting and watching, and as you point out so many posts, HHHHMMMM
I think it goes deeper than m15, he seems hell bent on making us belive we are all mentilly ill, any time someone offers an ulternative he cuts it down, and tries to discredit the person who posted it.

HHHHHMMMMM :lol:

cam


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

LOSTONE said:


> I would not be surprised. Martin is probably an MI5 agent.
> 
> There is someone else here from the CIA but that person never posts anything, he is just watching us :shock: .


 :shock: *Grabs Tin-foil hat* :shock:


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> I think it goes deeper than m15, he seems hell bent on making us belive we are all mentilly ill, any time someone offers an ulternative he cuts it down, and tries to discredit the person who posted it.


Yes not only does he love to keep us thinking that we are all crazy but if you post anything positive about DP/DR he will go into a rage. He does not like the idea that DP/DR can actually make you more intuitive and understanding. I wonder why that might be?



> Yes Yes, it seems as if he is just sitting there all the time waiting and watching


I think maybe Martin is just a computer program that was made by the government to watch over websites like dpselfhelp. Martinelv is not really human, the program is just really good at acting human but if you look close then you can see flaws with Martinelv's program.

ELV actually stands for Encapsulation of Living Virtualization.

So they call him Martinelv, Martin is the head programer.



> *Grabs Tin-foil hat*


Yes tin foil will help against some things but it don't protect you from Martinelv :wink: . I put tin foil on every time I get online but that never protects me from the Martinelv program.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

CECIL said:


> LOSTONE said:
> 
> 
> > I would not be surprised. Martin is probably an MI5 agent.
> ...


ROARING.

This reminds me of one of my favorite films, "Signs", where at one point Mel Gibson comes into a room to find that his brother Joaquin Phoenix sp? has put on a tin hat as have the two young children. HOWLING.

LostOne, I'm glad you don't think I'm a bitch. And I'm glad we all think Martin is ... well ... I honestly don't think I've ever encountered anyone like Martin before, LOLOLOL. 8)

L,
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Lostone said:


> just look at his avatar, totally something an MI5 agent would have for an avatar.


On this one, I have a different take. Um, I see it ... in a more Freudian sense.

Also I suppose sometimes a Big Ben is only a Big Ben. 8)


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

> Also I suppose sometimes a Big Ben is only a Big Ben.


Big Ben !

Big Brother!

Think about it!










And what's that other building?
Could it be the House of Parliament? :shock:

LOL


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## LOSTONE (Jul 9, 2005)

See now the Martinelv program is confused.

It don't know how to handle this situation.


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## Cam (Dec 13, 2006)

You know the more I think about this, I think there is more then one operative, I am not going to mention names, but there is another person on this site that doesn't have dp and gives the impression that he smokes pot all the time and god knows what else.

Yet this person seems to have an inexhaustible amount of knowledge when it comes to pharmaceuticals HHHMMMM
And always seems to suggest the mind altering ones to people HHMMM :wink:

Dreamer, do you have instructions on how to make the tin foil hat :lol: :lol: :lol:

Cam :wink:


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Oh ideed. Yes. I do work for MI5. I want to keep you all in a state of mental confusion so that the global domnation goals of the illuminati (which I am a memmber) will be achieved. That is my goal. That is why I post here all the time.

Absolutely spot on. I've been found out. :roll:


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## Epiphany (Apr 28, 2006)

Seeing as we're all fessing up...did I mention I'm one of Charlie's Angels...although currently on maternity leave of course.

I've been doing some research of my own and what I'm about to tell you all could place me in some danger...MARTIN (aka Nitram) IS NOT WORKING ALONE...THERE ARE OTHERS!!!

The mind-reading/psychic capabilities he has displayed are actually a direct result of collective intelligence gathered by himself and the other members of the operative...and he also uses this to extract further information from the rest of us unsuspecting innocents...so keep those tin foil hats on peoples and be afraid...be very afraid!!! :shock:


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

If you only knew the extent of my intelligence eve-dropping networks, in conjuction, and to which I am eternally gratefull, with the alien represntative of the planet Ooozelafplumaaziggaaa (closley related to one of the Spice Girls) then you would not mock me so.

Be afraid.

Be very, very afraid.

And don't eat mince pies. Sultanas are Satan's bum nuts. Don't say I didn't warn you.

I am watching. :evil:


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2006)

......


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

I was serious about everything except the tin-foil hat.

"Its just a ride, and there's no reason to be afraid, ever. Because, its just a ride" - Bill Hicks.


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## mind^partizan (Nov 11, 2006)

To me, the conspiracy theory is the official story of 9/11. You guys here discuss quite a lot. The lady who calls herself "old" here, i think her wisdom is big but knowledge is pretty outdated and she apparently doesnt want update, because she talks about general stuff, not addressing the facts and claims that are raised in the videos linked by the guy who started this topic. Im just trying to be open and NOT offensive in any way. You probably read a lot of books and think that you generally know the reality of the world. Although, its quickly changing. You suggested to read this or that, but by the time i can read one book, US gov. will pass another bill , that wont be exposed properly and we will all continue this discussion while this tyrany is engaging in one war after another. DId you recognize how the pace of events is increasing in 21st century? In 5 years US has managed to invade 2 countries and another 2 are on the list. You say, "oh why im bothering to write this"... thats exactly what the gov is wanting people to do. To think, that "its all the same stuff of politics" , ALTHOUGH it is not. It is a time of extremely important events. We are on the brink of WW3. So you say u are tired to talk about this, but it is the time when the world needs educated view as yours, the most. Now is the time to use what u learned. Dont ignore this issue, if you care about children. How can u be bored to talk about it, when US is like in deepest economical crisis in history , basically because they are feeding the war machine?! Are you happy while paying billions on "war on terror"? Do you feel that this war is worth fighting? Do you feel that ~500 000 Iraqi civilians lost lives are worth the cause? Do you think, your media is working well on asking questions , raisng awarness, demanding answers? Did you know that almost all of American media is owned by 5 corporations? Do you think we shouldnt be discussing things like that?


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2007)

Attack on America caused by America = Civial War


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Damnit, why am I posting.
I sent you a PM mind^partizan

1. Don't insult me please, you know nothing about me
2. I keep up on current events but don't dismiss history, you cannot undersatnd the present without understanding the past.
3. How is it that individuals from foreign countries seem to know more than those of us who live in America? I don't claim to be an expert on anyone else's governemnt/country/culture. I'm trying to understand my own -- that's enough work.

4. How is it that everyone forgets that the US is made up of IMMIGRANTS from individuals from all over the world. The US is unique in that respect.
5. Why the Hell not pick on Martin, or anyone else who happens to agree with me.
6. I joke about my age. Don't insult me by calling me "the old person" or whatever you said.
7. Has everyone forgotten that there are dictators in this world who have decimated their own civilians. Saddam was tried for only one crime. He has murdered thousands of people. He invaded Kuwait and Iran. And had a tremendous desire to acquire and use poisons and the nuclear capabilities of other countries.

Why the HELL does everyone think the US is the most violent country in the world when at this moment there is more crap, violence, murder, mayhem, misery, etc., etc. in virtually every country in this world, particularly those countries with dictators.

What the Hell is wrong with disagreeing.

My New Year's Resolution was to stop getting involved in this. I wanted to have a tad of fun in That's Life.

This is why I said I give up. Nastiness. Lack of respect on this Board.

Damnit.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2007)

I like Dreamer =)


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## CECIL (Oct 3, 2004)

Dreamer said:


> 3. How is it that individuals from foreign countries seem to know more than those of us who live in America? I don't claim to be an expert on anyone else's governemnt/country/culture. I'm trying to understand my own -- that's enough work.


Sadly its because everyone in the world is scrutinizing America right now...except many Americans >_< We get spoon fed your culture all day every day through every medium you can imagine. Other countries are adopting your culture as their own. It also just so happens that America is the most active country in terms of world politics right now.



> 4. How is it that everyone forgets that the US is made up of IMMIGRANTS from individuals from all over the world. The US is unique in that respect.


How is it that Americans forget that they are not the only country in the world? Australia was formed the exact same way America was, including the slaughter of the native inhabitants but minus the civil war. I'm very sure there are other countries who's history is the same.



> 7. Has everyone forgotten that there are dictators in this world who have decimated their own civilians. Saddam was tried for only one crime. He has murdered thousands of people. He invaded Kuwait and Iran. And had a tremendous desire to acquire and use poisons and the nuclear capabilities of other countries.


Has everyone forgotten that the U.S. supported and funded Saddam at every step right up until the first gulf war?

Yes Saddam is a murderer. By the same token, so is George Bush, since he has ordered military action against other countries which has resulted in countless deaths. But that's all in the name of the "War on Terror", so that's ok...

Saddam had "a tremendous desire to acquire and use poisons and the nuclear capabilities of other countries". Meanwhile, the US HAS, DOES and WILL AGAIN use poisons and the nuclear capactities of their own and other countries. Noticing a reccurring theme here?

I might also point out that similar forces are at work in the US itself! Not by overt means like outright killing people, but through more subtle means such as slowly erroding your personal freedoms. By making you so afraid that you willingly lay down what is supposed to be sacred in your country (freedom) and giving over total control of your lives to your government.

Already we are seeing trends that point towards the "Thought police" notion. You aren't allowed to say "bomb" or "explode" or "terrorist" on an airplane anymore, as one example.



> Why the HELL does everyone think the US is the most violent country in the world when at this moment there is more crap, violence, murder, mayhem, misery, etc., etc. in virtually every country in this world, particularly those countries with dictators.


1. U.S. over the last few years at least has invaded the most number of countries and has by a wide margin used the most force while doing so. During these invasions the death toll has risen to incredible numbers, though perhaps not as high as WW1 and 2 (not sure on specifics).

They also at present have, by a wide margin, the largest combined military force in the world as well as the largest nuclear arsenal. Oh, and they are thinking of putting a weapons platform into space just in case that wasn't enough.

The U.S. pumps TRILLIONS (read that number again) of dollars EVERY YEAR into manufacturing weapons/military equipment and developing new and exciting ways to kill people. If you weren't a violent country, perhaps you'd spend that money sorting sorting our your social problems instead? I'm sure a few trillion dollars could feed quite a few homeless people for a start.

2. Crime, murder, mayhem and misery is stupidly high in the U.S. compared to most other countries. People get murdered on your streets every day, while it is a rare occurrence for example here where I live.

3. Other less obvious things like imprisoning people without charging them, indefinately, and simultaneously denying them their own human rights (i.e. againt Geneva Convention) - Guantanamo bay, David Hicks etc.



> This is why I said I give up. Nastiness. Lack of respect on this Board


I'm not trying to be disrespectful to you, I am trying to lay out the facts as they appear to me. IMO no-one can deny the U.S. is doing some pretty terrible things right now. That doesn't mean you are a bad person for living there, but perhaps you can think about who to vote for next time. Or even better, letting this silly "President" idea die out and excercise your "God given right" to take up arms and overthrow the government* 

Also I'd like to point out that I'm not saying my country is any better. Australia has been doing a lot of the same sorts of things, for example our PM constantly supports Bush in whatever crazy idea he has, probably out of fear for what would happen if he didn't.

*In your constitution (Yes, read it) it tells you specifically that the military should not overpower the civilians and if at any time this happens the civilians are OBLIGED to take up arms and overthrow the government. Really. Not saying this is the best course of action, but it actually says that's what you should do in this situation in your constitution, which is right up there next to the bible as far as worhsipped documents go in America.


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