# I imagine theistic people have an advantage.



## Brando2600 (Apr 22, 2010)

First of all i'd like to say that im an Agnostic and don't plan on converting.

I was just visited by two Johoba's Witnesses and it got me thinking that people who beleive have something to lean on during tough times.

Not really sure why im posting this, but it IS in the debate section so I can imagine some flaming.


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

Someone here posted that people who pray or meditate have benefits. Then they got pounded with negative votes.

Yet I heard at a neurological conference that prayer/medication activates the parasympathetic nervous system and thus reduces sympathetic nervous system overactivity - kind of like taking the beta-blocker Inderal (propranolol). This med reduces anxiety (as some here will tell) and is helpful in a lot of ways.

I supposed it depends on what a person's theistic belief is. When I was abused I was told that God was going to hunt me down and will kill me when he finds me because I was so bad. It certainly served their purpose to keep me quite. Never told my parents or anybody for over 40 years. Children are dependent so quickly blame themselves rather than those they depend on - blame shifting is common in abuse.

Even though I don't believe this anymore, it makes me shake while typing this - it was burnt into my mind very deeply. So my theistic views are not particularly healthy. Logic tells me life is beautiful and God must care very much. But bad programming interferes with enjoying this avenue of search.


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## babybowrain (Aug 24, 2010)

yeah, it helps during the worst times, to for example "talk to god" or whatever until it gets better. unfortunately he never answers :S


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2010)




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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

ThoughtOnFire said:


>


Thanx - haven't heard this one in years (Nirvana is great). Never been to Duluth but I think I might like the rabid tooth - foam&#8230;foam&#8230;foam.


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## omniel (Dec 26, 2010)

Visual Dude said:


> Thanx - haven't heard this one in years (Nirvana is great). Never been to Duluth but I think I might like the rabid tooth - foam&#8230;foam&#8230;foam.


lol nice post *01/01/2011 @ 11:01pm*









---

in regards to the OP;

there is only one truth...


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2011)

Visual Dude said:


> Someone here posted that people who pray or meditate have benefits. Then they got pounded with negative votes.
> 
> Yet I heard at a neurological conference that prayer/medication activates the parasympathetic nervous system and thus reduces sympathetic nervous system overactivity - kind of like taking the beta-blocker Inderal (propranolol). This med reduces anxiety (as some here will tell) and is helpful in a lot of ways.
> 
> ...


Man, Im so sorry for what you had to go through. You didnt deserve that.
A child always thinks abuse is their fault, because a child is totally dependent on the adults around him and he must adapt to survive.
The weapon cowardly victimisers use is to to tell you it's your fault. Truth is, a cowardly, perverted, pathetic abuser should pay.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2011)

brando,
just read that people with faith live longer.
I think all religeon is man-made and for institutional mind control.
But I do believe there is a spiritual path.
Religeon is for state and control, but the original founders were individuals. Enlightened men always are. But power draws the corrupt and they quickly form their heirarchys to maintain their curruption, power and status.
But there is a harmony at words end...


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

Brando2600 said:


> First of all i'd like to say that im an Agnostic and don't plan on converting.
> 
> I was just visited by two Johoba's Witnesses and it got me thinking that people who beleive have something to lean on during tough times.
> 
> Not really sure why im posting this, but it IS in the debate section so I can imagine some flaming.


So did they say anything that made you start thinking about this?


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## ValleyGirl (Nov 10, 2017)

It's funny you post this because I was just thinking about this while driving home this morning. I am a Christian and was thinking how a relationship with God can be viewed as emotionally abusive. You are constantly being told that you are inherently bad and that you should ask for forgiveness and then you will be loved if you do what the diety wants you to do. Seems very much like the dynamic of an abusive relationship. I can personally relate to it in my marriage. My ex husband acted as an authority figure who would only give me love if I gave him what he wanted. He was the abusive one and still I was always the one who ended up apologizing. Go figure.

The thing that I have found is that there can also be great love and great peace when you start to understand the inner workings of a relationship with God and not just how it seems to be structured on the outside. They did an entire study on the 23rd psalm in church and it really brought to light how God sees us and why he treats us the way that he does. The entire 23rd psalm talks about how we are sheep and God is the shepherd and that even if we have to walk through the valley of the shadow of death (which is actually a real valley in the middle east and not a metaphore for death) our shepherd is there with us to keep us safe and that he will lead us to an abudant valley of rest where he will provide all of our needs. I really recommend that if you are interested, you go and watch the sermon videos. I can't articulate properly what the pastor said but it really kind of changed my view on the entire struggle of understanding God and what he wants from us. http://livinghopechurch.com/sermons/sermon/the-lord-is-my-shepherd (the series is called intervention)

Anyways, the point is that I have been both an Athiest and a Christian and when it comes right down to it, I pick Christian over Athiest. Yes, it does mean that I cannot just do and say whatever I want and that is restrictive but I have found that how I feel inside living by the Christian standards is better than how I felt living as an Athiest. I think about having dp what it has been like with a God to pray to and a hope to hang on and then thinking what it would be like to have dp without any God and any hope of healing or feeling that someone, somewhere, still loves me and hears my prayers, and I honestly think that without the hope that I have to cling to in God that I would have killed myself already.

So Brando, I agree with what you are saying that it does help to have something to lean on in tought times.


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## flipwilson (Aug 19, 2006)

From my experience there is no advantage. i was a Christian for most of my life until the last 4 years of serious deprogramming and deconversion. The disadvantage in my opinion of being theistic is you are always begging for an answer. To fully believe that in my moment of pure at utter horror that God or Jesus or whoever is looking down on me and yet no help comes my way was actually a horrible feeling. To sit and pray for hours, not catholic repetition but truly talking to God like he is my father and friend, and to be left like this was not comforting. People assume that having something to lean on is better, but I don't believe so, and I think many of us here can attribute being dp because we never relied on ourselves, somewhere down the line a healthy ego was not formed. Once I shed the Christian skin I actually could accept my situation a lot easier knowing the randomness of nature and knowing I wasn't all important when compared to anything else that lives or dies. In religion there is always the "why?" because we are promised certain things in the bible, and when those things don't come to pass its heart wrenching. God makes the claim he loves me and then there is no evidence in my life that he ever gave a fuck, but the universe or nature never claimed or promised me anything and that makes the shit smell a lot better. To believe there is a God that knows my suffering and is able to stop my suffering but chooses not to do so is a scary thing, and if that is the case then God can piss off because then he's not really worth a damn any way. peace.


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## pancake (Nov 26, 2009)

Brando2600 said:


> First of all i'd like to say that im an Agnostic and don't plan on converting.
> 
> I was just visited by two Johoba's Witnesses and it got me thinking that people who beleive have something to lean on during tough times.
> 
> Not really sure why im posting this, but it IS in the debate section so I can imagine some flaming.


I think this is pointed out in the Sierra book. Statistically theists are more likely to recover








Atheist here. Intend to stay that way.


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## pancake (Nov 26, 2009)

Visual Dude said:


> Even though I don't believe this anymore, it makes me shake while typing this - it was burnt into my mind very deeply. So my theistic views are not particularly healthy. Logic tells me life is beautiful and God must care very much. But bad programming interferes with enjoying this avenue of search.


Very good point.


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

flipwilson said:


> From my experience there is no advantage. i was a Christian for most of my life until the last 4 years of serious deprogramming and deconversion. The disadvantage in my opinion of being theistic is you are always begging for an answer. To fully believe that in my moment of pure at utter horror that God or Jesus or whoever is looking down on me and yet no help comes my way was actually a horrible feeling. To sit and pray for hours, not catholic repetition but truly talking to God like he is my father and friend, and to be left like this was not comforting. People assume that having something to lean on is better, but I don't believe so, and I think many of us here can attribute being dp because we never relied on ourselves, somewhere down the line a healthy ego was not formed. Once I shed the Christian skin I actually could accept my situation a lot easier knowing the randomness of nature and knowing I wasn't all important when compared to anything else that lives or dies. In religion there is always the "why?" because we are promised certain things in the bible, and when those things don't come to pass its heart wrenching. God makes the claim he loves me and then there is no evidence in my life that he ever gave a fuck, but the universe or nature never claimed or promised me anything and that makes the shit smell a lot better. To believe there is a God that knows my suffering and is able to stop my suffering but chooses not to do so is a scary thing, and if that is the case then God can piss off because then he's not really worth a damn any way. peace.


You have so many interesting points to think about and how life is for many religious people. It is funny that I was just talking about this kind of stuff with someone else.

*To sit and pray for hours&#8230;and to be left like this was not comforting*

Do you mean to be cured of DP?

*I think many of us here can attribute being dp because we never relied on ourselves*

This is the exact opposite of my personality - always relied on myself. So much so that when brain injury forced me out of work, had a nervous breakdown. Thought a lot about suicide as being better than dependence. To this day, seeing people in authority or thinking about the extent of my disability is a great stress (so use dissociative skills to my advantage - ignore, ignore).

In reality, no man is an island. Very few can successfully live as a hermit. Adjusting to non-self-reliance is difficult - God or no God. And aging eventually takes away the vitality needed to be self-reliant. Funny, aging is ugly but the aged are beautiful (what an odd thought).

*theistic is you are always begging for an answer*

Perhaps I have a theistic heart after all? It doesn't matter what the topic is (religious, medical, mechanical, chemical, biological, etc) I am practically driven by the enjoyment of learning. Answering the unknown. This has always been a great pleasure and seldom an anguish. You are making me think here.









*To believe there is a God that knows my suffering and is able to stop my suffering but chooses not to do so is a scary thing*

In talking to people this seems to be the biggest complaint - why does God permit wickedness? [The next seems to be dislike of accountability (we all like our freedom).]

When you add 'expectation postponed is making the heart sick' (or as you said, *promised certain things in the bible, and when those things don't come to pass its heart wrenching*) - I guess if there is a God, then there must be something more important going on than our own personal circumstances.

In the end, again, how does one balance the joys and responsibilities of free will with getting help? I suppose for me things are a bit more about 'how' than 'why'.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2011)

flipwilson said:


> From my experience there is no advantage. i was a Christian for most of my life until the last 4 years of serious deprogramming and deconversion. The disadvantage in my opinion of being theistic is you are always begging for an answer. To fully believe that in my moment of pure at utter horror that God or Jesus or whoever is looking down on me and yet no help comes my way was actually a horrible feeling. To sit and pray for hours, not catholic repetition but truly talking to God like he is my father and friend, and to be left like this was not comforting. People assume that having something to lean on is better, but I don't believe so, and I think many of us here can attribute being dp because we never relied on ourselves, somewhere down the line a healthy ego was not formed. Once I shed the Christian skin I actually could accept my situation a lot easier knowing the randomness of nature and knowing I wasn't all important when compared to anything else that lives or dies. In religion there is always the "why?" because we are promised certain things in the bible, and when those things don't come to pass its heart wrenching. God makes the claim he loves me and then there is no evidence in my life that he ever gave a fuck, but the universe or nature never claimed or promised me anything and that makes the shit smell a lot better. To believe there is a God that knows my suffering and is able to stop my suffering but chooses not to do so is a scary thing, and if that is the case then God can piss off because then he's not really worth a damn any way. peace.


Im a non-catagory,
but maybe the problem is that no-one tells you what prayer is and what you should and should not expect.I went to sunday school, tried to read the bible, and none of it made any sence to me.
Blasphemy alert! Prayer is another form of pscho-therapy or meditation.
It's about projecting (surrendering) to a force outside of yourself. May not exist, may be pychological projection, but if you bring strong emotional intensity (ie faith), a strong emotional healing can take place.
This will not effect your lottery numbers or stop people dying but its one of many roads to help make sence of things.
(which is really acceptance and the end of childish expectation, where you are alive and living in the real living world)
Or Im full of shit. Im on my journey, your on yours. Best wishes. Adios.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Phantasm said:


> Im a non-catagory,
> but maybe the problem is that no-one tells you what prayer is and what you should and should not expect.I went to sunday school, tried to read the bible, and none of it made any sence to me.
> Blasphemy alert! Prayer is another form of pscho-therapy or meditation.
> It's about projecting (surrendering) to a force outside of yourself. May not exist, may be pychological projection, but if you bring strong emotional intensity (ie faith), a strong emotional healing can take place.
> ...


Yeah I agree with you to a certain extent that prayer is a good antidote to ego grasping in that by declaring there is something bigger than yourself and submitting to it you can create a psychological letting go, which can relax your mind and nervous system in order to help recovery. Most psychological defenses are caused by your ego trying to control the world and to stop suffering so by submitting to a higher power you are showing trust that you will be ok if you let go of your defences and embrace your suffering.

The problem I see with a lot of people involved in Churches though is that they are trying to submit to God out of guilt or fear or out of some sort of brainwashed duty, which I think can actually be harmful as it is like surrendering to an abuser, unless you are freely submitting without emotional manipulation it might just be disempowering and keeping you repressed.

Personally I don't believe in God as a being comprehendible to the human mind rather I prey or try to submit to natures intelligence or the intelligence of the universe or the Tao which I find uncomplicates things.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2011)

Pablo said:


> Yeah I agree with you to a certain extent that prayer is a good antidote to ego grasping in that by declaring there is something bigger than yourself and submitting to it you can create a psychological letting go, which can relax your mind and nervous system in order to help recovery. Most psychological defenses are caused by your ego trying to control the world and to stop suffering so by submitting to a higher power you are showing trust that you will be ok if you let go of your defences and embrace your suffering.
> 
> The problem I see with a lot of people involved in Churches though is that they are trying to submit to God out of guilt or fear or out of some sort of brainwashed duty, which I think can actually be harmful as it is like surrendering to an abuser, unless you are freely submitting without emotional manipulation it might just be disempowering and keeping you repressed.
> 
> Personally I don't believe in God as a being comprehendible to the human mind rather I prey or try to submit to natures intelligence or the intelligence of the universe or the Tao which I find uncomplicates things.


I think of God as the pattern and movement of the universe. Silly little humans kill each other over their holy books (but we all know it's teritory, land, and recources).
Very earthly, material concerns...
"God told me to commit mass-murder"
But you only have to look up to the night sky, with the twinkling stars, to know there is much more going on than us.


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## white (Jan 30, 2011)

i've always secretly wished i was religious. it's like instant friends who care because god makes them be nice and ugh everything is so pretty too, stained glass and angels and i wish i were an angel. nobody appreciates my tourist fascination with christianity







it isn't fair i want to be obligated to something but i guess dedication to imaginary things takes a lot of effort although maybe it would be ok because i am imaginary too? i'd talk to god anyway if i could but i constantly feel like i am being watched (by my self) so i don't*can't(never in life have ever) talk to myself or sing when no one is around (no one is ever around)or pray but i want to pray i want to trick myself into really truly believing in s.om.e..t.h.i.n.g.g.g.gggggg so that i have something to talk at


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## pigandpepper (Sep 26, 2010)

Religion has always been a very fickle thing for me. I was raised in a Jewish household, but my family did not become too religious until my mom died 12 years ago, which is funny considering that most people tend to lose their faith after something like that happens to them, but in the case of my dad, a former atheist, it was quite the opposite. I went to Hebrew school most of my life growing up and for a long time I believed in God, too. Then I got into science. I don't mean to say that one cannot believe in a deity and in scientific theory simultaneously, because one can, but after learning all that I had learned, there was no way I could believe any longer that all the beauty and majesty of the universe is orchestrated by one supreme being, the existence of whom there is no proof. I know that faith is something you are supposed to have blindly, but I cannot make myself believe in something just because I was told it is so. I still practice Judaism out of a respect for culture and tradition (and it is a beautiful tradition which is slowly fading out) although I have stopped keeping kosher. I am, however, most definitely atheist. 
Outside of the realm of science, though, I realized that what we as humans need in order to put a stop to a great amount of the violence that occurs today is not a return to religion, as some zealots might suggest, but rather a step away from it. So many injustices have been committed, and are still being committed today, in the name of God that I refuse to believe that a deity as 'merciful' as the Judaeo-Christian God is supposed to be would allow for so much senseless slaughter. Christianity, especially, puzzles me, although maybe it's because I was not raised under that faith, because of the concept of salvation. I know that there are many Christians of all denominations who practice solely because it makes them happy, but at the same time I can't help but think that many other Christians perform 'Christian' acts because of the promise of salvation and threat of eternal damnation, not out of mere decency. 
But to the religious who practice solely because they believe in it 100% and because it makes them truly happy, I envy you enormously (unless you take the word of the bible verbatim. Then I think you might need to reevaluate your life). I find it so difficult to believe in something so wholly and without question, but at the same time this belief brings you comfort and hope. I wish I could have that kind of faith. However, I think it's also important to remember that any change you want to bring upon yourself, you have to bring about yourself. I think that faith should be seen as a helping hand and not a cure-all. Those who believe in God leave far too much, I think, in His hands, and give Him way too much credit for things that were done by humans. It's important to remember that, if you do believe, maybe he's already given you what you need to move forward and the rest is up to you. As for me, I prefer to remain faithless. Because, after all, any God who warns me to stay away from bacon is obviously deranged and should not be trusted.


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

tofunk said:


> Religion has always been a very fickle thing for me. I was raised in a Jewish household, but my family did not become too religious until my mom died 12 years ago, which is funny considering that most people tend to lose their faith after something like that happens to them, but in the case of my dad, a former atheist, it was quite the opposite. I went to Hebrew school most of my life growing up and for a long time I believed in God, too. Then I got into science. I don't mean to say that one cannot believe in a deity and in scientific theory simultaneously, because one can, but after learning all that I had learned, there was no way I could believe any longer that all the beauty and majesty of the universe is orchestrated by one supreme being, the existence of whom there is no proof. I know that faith is something you are supposed to have blindly, but I cannot make myself believe in something just because I was told it is so. I still practice Judaism out of a respect for culture and tradition (and it is a beautiful tradition which is slowly fading out) although I have stopped keeping kosher. I am, however, most definitely atheist.
> Outside of the realm of science, though, I realized that what we as humans need in order to put a stop to a great amount of the violence that occurs today is not a return to religion, as some zealots might suggest, but rather a step away from it. So many injustices have been committed, and are still being committed today, in the name of God that I refuse to believe that a deity as 'merciful' as the Judaeo-Christian God is supposed to be would allow for so much senseless slaughter. Christianity, especially, puzzles me, although maybe it's because I was not raised under that faith, because of the concept of salvation. I know that there are many Christians of all denominations who practice solely because it makes them happy, but at the same time I can't help but think that many other Christians perform 'Christian' acts because of the promise of salvation and threat of eternal damnation, not out of mere decency.
> But to the religious who practice solely because they believe in it 100% and because it makes them truly happy, I envy you enormously (unless you take the word of the bible verbatim. Then I think you might need to reevaluate your life). I find it so difficult to believe in something so wholly and without question, but at the same time this belief brings you comfort and hope. I wish I could have that kind of faith. However, I think it's also important to remember that any change you want to bring upon yourself, you have to bring about yourself. I think that faith should be seen as a helping hand and not a cure-all. Those who believe in God leave far too much, I think, in His hands, and give Him way too much credit for things that were done by humans. It's important to remember that, if you do believe, maybe he's already given you what you need to move forward and the rest is up to you. As for me, I prefer to remain faithless. Because, after all, any God who warns me to stay away from bacon is obviously deranged and should not be trusted.


You mention *one supreme being, the existence of whom there is no proof*.

Just curious what people think would constitute proof?


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## flipwilson (Aug 19, 2006)

Visual Dude said:


> You mention *one supreme being, the existence of whom there is no proof*.
> 
> Just curious what people think would constitute proof?


 I think it would be safe to assume since we all know we didn't put ourselves here or create trees or the sun then there is obviously something bigger than us, I don't think any human could argue that or let alone define that. But when we start talking about specific faiths and Gods then I think we have to ask 'where is the proof?', because that's the natural response when truth claims are being made about anything. If a claim was made in science, in medicine, or in engineering we would not be looked at as close minded if we asked questions or wanted proof, but with religion those that don't buy it are somehow not seeing the bigger picture or are seen as presumptuous.

When we take Christianity specifically and we view how that particular world worked and understand its history there is no reason to be believe that their particular God exists. When we have stories of God wiping out groups of people, men talking to bushes, demons being cast out into pigs, men being healed with mud how is there any correlation to the way we live, experience, and understand progressive society today? If all of these things continued to occur in the present day then I guess men shouldn't wonder but these things clearly do not. The old religious texts are relegated to the ancient world before men knew much about anything besides brutality and fear. The very fact that proof is needed begs the question 'then where is God?'. If He interacted so intimately with people before in such an audible manner, then why does that not continue? Now for some reason we must seek Him, and he is hidden from this world? How convenient. I think when people ask 'where is the proof?' they are truly asking 'does this religion and its texts line up with modern reality?' and the big three religions certainly do not.


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

flipwilson said:


> I think it would be safe to assume since we all know we didn't put ourselves here or create trees or the sun then there is obviously something bigger than us, I don't think any human could argue that or let alone define that. But when we start talking about specific faiths and Gods then I think we have to ask 'where is the proof?', because that's the natural response when truth claims are being made about anything. If a claim was made in science, in medicine, or in engineering we would not be looked at as close minded if we asked questions or wanted proof, but with religion those that don't buy it are somehow not seeing the bigger picture or are seen as presumptuous.
> 
> When we take Christianity specifically and we view how that particular world worked and understand its history there is no reason to be believe that their particular God exists. When we have stories of God wiping out groups of people, men talking to bushes, demons being cast out into pigs, men being healed with mud how is there any correlation to the way we live, experience, and understand progressive society today? If all of these things continued to occur in the present day then I guess men shouldn't wonder but these things clearly do not. The old religious texts are relegated to the ancient world before men knew much about anything besides brutality and fear. The very fact that proof is needed begs the question 'then where is God?'. If He interacted so intimately with people before in such an audible manner, then why does that not continue? Now for some reason we must seek Him, and he is hidden from this world? How convenient. I think when people ask 'where is the proof?' they are truly asking 'does this religion and its texts line up with modern reality?' and the big three religions certainly do not.


This is an interesting topic.

So when you say *If He interacted so intimately with people before in such an audible manner, then why does that not continue? Now for some reason we must seek Him, and he is hidden from this world?* - Are you really saying the proof would be an intimate interaction with people today? (Such an occurrence _would_ be hard to ignore)

As for *tofunk*'s statement that *Then I got into science* and then states *there was no way I could believe any longer that all the beauty and majesty of the universe is orchestrated by one supreme being, the existence of whom there is no proof*

I do not understand how complex beauty and organization could somehow indicate that God couldn't exist.

Unless I misunderstand *tofunk*, her experience is that there is no proof. And to be told something we don't understand or agree with (like bacon) would mean that the individual (God in this case) *is obviously deranged and should not be trusted.*

*Brando*'s original thought was *theistic people have an advantage*. But to the non-theistic person, either it is a mystery (a common theistic statement) or the grass is greener on one side or the other.

Is seems that much thought about the existence of God seems to be around violence - most often perpetrated by those who claim to be his follower. Few of us like violence. So if God is violent, we wouldn't like him. And why would he make creatures that don't like him. Derangement again?

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Mahatma Gandhi

Somehow it seems important to remove the actions of people out of the equation of what is God like. Or whether God exist.

Thus I ponder, what people consider proof? What would/should I consider proof?


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## flipwilson (Aug 19, 2006)

I actually really do believe the only proof would be for God to be as active and real as he is in those holy books. The main Christian mantra is faith , faith, and faith. Blessed are those who believe and haven't seen. The problem with this is that every key figure in the bible at some point had a very clear undeniable interaction with God. These experiences are not just a warm fuzzy feelings or coincidences that people attribute to God, they are very purposeful interactions. Take these examples: Moses and the burning bush, Noah and his ark, Jonah and the whale, Peter denying Christ, the disciples seeing the holy spirit as fire, Paul being struck down by God on the road, God telling Abraham to kill his son. Does God interact with people like this today?

The funny thing is again your final question is being posed because of non-believers saying there is no proof or asking 'where is the proof'? I would ask the same exact question to the believer. What's their proof and how does any 'evidence' that the believer comes up with lead them to the conclusion that they are correct in their faith? We cannot really prove or disprove a God in the most general sense. What we can do is take what religion gives us and objectively look at it and decide if it correlates with any truth. Knowing what we know about our world now do these claims of God make any sense to who we are? I believe no, and I would challenge any jew, muslim or christian to read their holy books as if they have never seen them before. Forget about the emotional connection to what you think you believe and actually read these texts from front to back and see if God is so loving and just, see if he is really worth worshiping.


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## pigandpepper (Sep 26, 2010)

Visual Dude said:


> You mention *one supreme being, the existence of whom there is no proof*.
> 
> Just curious what people think would constitute proof?


For me, proof constitutes of scientific evidence that is testable and/or observable, and by observable I do not mean someone saying "look at the cosmos, it's so beautiful and delicate, it must have been created by a higher divine power." Furthermore, any research done on the subject would have to be conducted by a non-theistic organization in order for me to be convinced that biases have not determined outcome. However, as there is no method of proving the existence of a God, I remain unconvinced.


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## pigandpepper (Sep 26, 2010)

I just read replies and feel like I need to further clarify my statement.
When I say that I find it difficult to believe in God after learning science, I meant that I found it difficult to believe in a divine master of the universe after gaining a better understanding of the physics that dictate the way our universe works. Modern science has been able to explain so many phenomena that were once widely accepted as acts of God, that I find it illogical to continue believing in God when proof has surfaced that the universe was created in a completely theistic manner. Of course, theists might argue that God is simply testing us, and I must vehemently disagree with that statement. Furthermore, I think you took my comment on bacon far too seriously. It was just a humorous way to close a very long reply.


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## gill (Jul 1, 2010)

Science can give us insight into how things work. But, it doesn't tell us why.

For instance,physics explains forces causing motion. But, why are there forces? No one knows. So there will always be room for these philosophical questions that are anyone's guess.

my two cents.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

I think science proves that many literal interpretations of scripture are wrong, which is a good thing in my opinion as it means religion will become more about internal alegorical states than anything literal in the world, which I think was their original point in the first place.


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2011)

Pablo said:


> I think science proves that many literal interpretations of scripture are wrong, which is a good thing in my opinion as it means religion will become more about internal alegorical states than anything literal in the world, which I think was their original point in the first place.


Word,

Your Buddha Nature, The Christ Within, Awakening Shakti & Shiva.

Zen Buddhism, Gnostic Christianity, Yogic Hinduism.

All of these point to Nirvana, Enlightenment, Moksha.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

ThoughtOnFire said:


> Word,
> 
> Your Buddha Nature, The Christ Within, Awakening Shakti & Shiva.
> 
> ...


Yeah if you look at the inner esoteric traditions within all religions they all more or less say the same thing, it's only the literallist interpretations of religion which divide people and cause wars


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

Pablo said:


> Yeah if you look at the inner esoteric traditions within all religions they all more or less say the same thing, it's only the literallist interpretations of religion which divide people and cause wars


So there been no wars fought by Buddhists or Hindus?


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## Visual (Oct 13, 2010)

Ok, a little more:

The word _Science_ is from the Latin _scientia_, which means "knowledge"

The _Scientific Method_ is based on the basics of:

 Characterizations (observations, definitions, and measurements of the subject of inquiry) 
 Hypotheses (theoretical, hypothetical explanations of observations and measurements of the subject) 
 Predictions (reasoning including logical deduction from the hypothesis or theory) 
 Experiments (tests of all of the above)

In order to prove, you must have all possibilities that have or could occur in the universe throughout eternity.

Since this isn't possible, then you explore whatever evidence is available. So we are limited to empirical observation, experience and experiments. And to inductive reasoning. Knowledge builds but is never complete. Sometimes there are reversals - we were wrong.

"Note that this method can never absolutely verify (prove the truth of). It can only falsify. (This is what Einstein meant when he said, "No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong.")

So E = mc2 has been demonstrated (A-bomb and fission reactors) but not proven.

Einstein brought us close to understanding the relationship of energy and matter. But it is possible that this simple equation isn't true - only closer to anything we have had before. At least it is something we can work with now.

People frequently use the expression, "Science has proven". Some posts under this topic have this idea. But the concept is an oxymoron.

In the end, knowledge is limited and nothing is known for sure. But enough is known to build tall buildings, bridges, rockets, bombs, cars, medicines, etc&#8230; With it we can make reliable decisions and plan on the sun rising tomorrow.

As knowledge increases, then we _can_ use it to do more. What we choose to do with it is another matter.

I've met people who do not believe man has actually gone to the moon - that is was all a show and fake. How do you prove to these individuals whether it is true or not? How do you prove to yourself whether this is true?

As for proving God exists - doesn't it come down to is it reasonable to think God exists or does not exist? Is there substantial evidence either way? Each must evaluate within their self.

This is what I am asking when I posted: *Just curious what people think would constitute proof?*


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2011)

Visual Dude said:


> So there been no wars fought by Buddhists or Hindus?


He meant even inner esoteric traditions within Buddhism and Hinduism.


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## Guest (Feb 6, 2011)

ThoughtOnFire said:


> He meant even inner esoteric traditions within Buddhism and Hinduism.


The mind is suggestable. If it wasnt we would all be well and not be here.
Tyrants/kingdoms/states have always used religeon as mind control.
But a true spiritual experience is/must by its very nature be personal.
You decide something inside you will shine while the fat cats plough their shit.


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