# Narcissistic emptiness and a solution I found on internet



## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Hi, 
I don't know how many others on here have issues of narcissism stemming from narcissistic emptiness (ie. loss of self prior to onset of depersonalisation). I've found a site which integrates a psychological approach in the framework of spiritual self-realisation, ie finding the essential Beingness, or Presence, as other spiritual teachers have called it.

Here's are some excerpts on the subject of narcissism.
http://www.ahalmaas.com/glossary/n/narcissism.htm



> *Narcissism*
> In narcissism, the experience of the self is disconnected from its core, from the depths of what it is. It is estranged from its true nature, exiled from its primordial home. (The Point of Existence, pg 26)
> 
> Narcissism is not simply alienation from being, but more specifically it is the loss of the Essential Identity. Given our discussion of the function of the Essential Identity to allow identification with one's true nature, it is clear that this loss is the central factor in our incapacity to know ourselves as Being, and thus, in our narcissism. (The Point of Existence, pg 148)
> ...





> *No Self*
> The state of no self is actually a pure manifestation of inner spacious reality, Being in its openness, we experience it as empty space, immaculate and pure, light and clean, empty of everything structured by the mind. However the self reacts to the sense of no self in many ways -- as a loss, as a deficiency, and so on, plus the associations, memories, and feelings that go with these interpretations. All this psychic content pervades the inner spaciousness so that we lose sight of its lightness, purity, immaculateness, and freedom. Instead, we feel it as deficient emptiness, dull and flat, heavy and dark. Only when we allow this emptiness to be, without judgment or rejection, without reaction or opinion, does it shed its obscurations and reveal its inherent truth: the state of no self, the freedom and openness of our Being. (The Point of Existence, pg 337)
> 
> There is consciousness and a kind of emptiness, a void that has no sense of self and no need for a sense of self. The step after that is the loss of consciousness of no-self, and when that consciousness is gone, there is no consciousness of self, or no-self and no knowing that there is no consciousness of self or no-self. This is the absence of mind, consciousness, and sensation. When that happens, it is then possible to be truly spontaneous because there is no self there to reflect on. If you reflect on yourself in this state, the only thing that happens is that you realize your head is turned around and that you are looking outside. There is nothing else to look into; you can only look outward. The main barrier to all these transitions is the belief that you are the person that is connected to the body. You?re taking what we call the shell (because it functions as a defensive shell) to be you. Identifying with the shell brings the terror that you are going to lose the sense of being a person. But what you actually are is not a person; you are a window to the universe. (Diamond Heart Book 4, pg 131)





> *On Nonduality:*
> In the experience of nonduality, it is not as though physical reality were a dream emanating from it -- that perception would still be dualistic. When duality is seen through, physical reality is imbued with the essential dimension, and the two become one. This gives the physical more reality, more substance, more existence, more meaning, more depth, and more dimensionality. When you look at people, they seem more substantial, and even their bodies appear more physical, in a sense. Every object and person has a concreteness and a definiteness that makes each appear more defined, more present, and more complete, because your experience of them includes the depth of the true existence. When everything is perceived as the Absolute, each atom, each form, has its depth. The Absolute not only underlies everything, but penetrates all manifestation. Depending upon which dimension you are experiencing, everything you perceive acquires the depth and beauty of that dimension. (Facets of Unity, pg 87)


Just thought I'd share that. As narcissism is also a psychological topic, I thought I should not confine this to the spirituality section. It would be interesting to see how much depersonalisation is found in people suffering from narcissistic emptiness also. I'll see if I can find something to that effect.
http://content.karger.com/produktedb/pr ... 6039004192



> *Narcissistic Regulation of the Self and Interpersonal Problems in Depersonalized Patients*
> M. Michal, J. Kaufhold, G. Overbeck, R. Grabhorn
> 
> Clinic for Psychosomatic Medicine and Psychotherapy of the J.W. Goethe University, Frankfurt am Main, Germany
> ...


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2008)

I feel I must point out; DP\DR emptiness and narcissistic personality disorder is i 375098358693450489 different things.
DPDR = you feel no sense of self, personality, emotions(therefore: lack of empathy, for FUCK sake, people seem dead and u question their existance in this disorder).
A narcissist is completely different, I DOUBT a narcissist can even get this disorder, it's kinda self-refuting...

So all poor sufferes of this ddisorder, NO you are no egomeganomaliac narcissists


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## Pollyanna 3098 (Dec 12, 2006)

> I feel I must point out; DP\DR emptiness and narcissistic personality disorder is i 375098358693450489 different things.


I must say copeful, you are very specific.
375098358693450489 surly that's give or take a few


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2008)

;P ok, maybe less or maybe not, narcissism is caused by default in the brain, frontal lobes ecspecially, and we got around 100 billion neurons so... the number of differences in narcissists and DPDR might actually be right =P LOL you got my point, I KNOW your that intelligent


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Thanks for clarifying that, nevertheless depersonalisation and narcissism can co-exist.

I understand that being narcissistic is one of the worst labels....or facts of life. People may assume that to be a narcissist or to lack empathy is a malicious act of self-defiance.

I don't consider myself malicious, however I have felt faint to the point of blowing away in the breeze all my life and need to know why addictions and even hobbies couldn't give me a sense of existance. No acheivment was ever enough to make me feel I had accomplished something. I have a permanent sense of failure, in spite of doing well in some areas.

As body-ego-identification is screwed in narcissistic personality disorder, emotions and other bodily related things can be screwed up to...

I had loss of self before chronic depersonalisation. My dp was like the direct result of trying to handle maturity without having the basic sense of identity and existance which other take for granted. In other words, I felt like a ghost before the derealisation went chronic. And couldn't understand why other people acted the way they did. I couldn't understand why I didn't "relate" to people (who I called normal). Or why I felt worthless......why it seemed impossible to consider myself valuable to someone. I had difficulty believing I existed so I didn't understand why anyone could value me.

As a teenager I tried to find myself in the mirror, or in relationshps which were self-serving and based almost entirely on ego. I would have helped anyone but the truth was that I felt people didn't fully exist to me. I gained a small sense of self from being someone who was "helpful" and from the youngest age wanted to serve the community.

All the while, I felt like the kind of person who would never abandon anyone....selfless....couldn't understand people with normal ego-development and why they were primarily geared towards pleasure (pleasure principle).

So even though I was empty and invalidating people unintentionally, I also thought my lack of gross emotionality indicated that I was more refined and caring than others. And so the cycle continued. Till this year when someone burst the bubble.

I haven't received a formal diagnosis however I know that I match the criteria of

- chronic emptiness
- trying to find myself in things and people to no avail
- feelings of inferiority and incompetence
- desire to be helpful in order to feel a sense of existance and worth
- inability to feel I exist 
- invalidation of other people because they are normal and couldn't understand where I was coming from (which is kind of true as I have lost myself).

....this is me...what else can I say. I'm not ashamed of the problem now I know there are answers. I feel it is hardly my fault is my emerging self was not supported. Of course I feel a sense of loss that I may never be a "person" like other people are. But I have had some improvements in my condition recently since being in a relationship with someone who could support me and care about me, in spite of my constant neediness, and since doing meditation on eye-contact and learning Beingness in meditation (ie. identification with undifferentiated consciousness).

It's a long road, and even if I haven't helped someone by writing this, I'm glad I've come out of the closet because I'd rather be honest about myself than live a lie.

Rozanne


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Just found a site on differential diagnosis.

Previous I had thought I was borderline due to the emptiness.

I'm starting to think I need to get a proper assessment because there is no point in selecting psychiatric labels will-nilly even if "emptiness" is the only way I can currently discribe it.

http://www1.appstate.edu/~hillrw/Narcis ... nosis.html



> *Features Distinguishing NPD from
> Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder *
> 
> Individuals with both NPD and OCPD may be perfectionists, believe that others cannot do things as well as they can, have a strong need to control and be emotionally cold. Rather than being self-critical like the person with Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder, however, someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder is more likely to believe that he or she has actually achieved perfection. Moreover, the perfection of persons with OCPD does not take the form of devaluing or being contemptuous of others, demanding admiration, or behaving in a haughty manner.14 As Akhtar and Thomson observed, �The obsessional seeks perfection; the narcissist claims it.�15
> ...


Does anyone else have borderline/narcissistic issues?


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Another good site:

http://peterfox.com.au/npd.htm



> Narcissism: an innate force or tendency opposed to relationship and community (pubmed citations)
> No Beast is there without glimmer of infinity, No eye so vile nor abject that brushes not Against lightning from on high, now tender, now fierce. Victor Hugo 'La L?gende des si?cles'.
> You are your own veil, Hafez, get out of the way ... more on the Sufi paradox of self and Hassidic getting beyond the 'I'
> 
> ...


This sentance stood out at me as particularly true to my past:

A severe narcissist parent or partner will exploit their child's or lover's selflessness and without mercy. They will implicate themselves in their lives and successes whilst blaming them for failures entirely of the narcissist's own doing. The same goes for a narcissist employer with co-narcissist employee.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

In my whole life I have only thought about one thing: satisfying my mother.

When I arrived at university I couldn't understand why people were taking care of themselves and not feeling responsible for others.

I sat in my room of an evening, alone of course, feeling bad about the state of the world and wondering why i felt such a failure. I wondered why other's were immersed in the pleasure principle of self-care.

And rather than giving up the white flag and going over to self-worth, I continued to believe that "i was right" and "others were wrong". That self-denial could be the only form of true worth.

I now have friends who act like this, and try to tell them to care about themselves. To stop eating out of shop bins, and to stop thinking they have to "save the world" or that everything is their fault.

It's impossible to dislodge the primitive sense of guilt, however. And like my friends, I will continue to live in the poverty of lacking worth, of lacking the inherent belief that my pleasure is a worthy pursuit.

I must have some self-worth or desire to be happy otherwise I wouldn't be writing this. There is a nagging selfish introspection which drives me towards the goal of being whole and being of value to others.

But in the meantime, the "real class difference" (in the words of Winnicott) is between the haves and the have-nots. I cannot accept normality because it is all about the self. But I can't accept the have-not because I see it as destruct to self and others.

Unfortunately, no matter how guilty I am, or how much I have sacrificed myself because I believed I have no worth, the net effect is the same. Profound selfishness.

_Self denial is other denial._


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## ash_is_sad (Oct 27, 2007)

I generally relate to you, a damn lot, Rozanne.

I feel that many people here just accept DP, and I do not. Because you have just explained it to me, perfectly. It is a bad habit, not a condition we have to live with. We need to discuss it, not wallow in it.

I used to suffer from doubt, and the way I reacted to it was to disassociate, so I could never could better. It wasn't until I want travelling that Pleasure took me by the Shoulders and shook me, so hard - that I had to stop disassociating and face a nature I had forgotten how to trust - a self love, a faith, a wellbeing and happiness. Basically, my nature, or my 'Being', that I had blocked out. I can imagine a relationship of love of another could do this too. Love is the best healer.

You say about how, in your Childhood, you learnt to sacrifice yourself, to put yourself in a place of emptiness to serve another's needs. I learnt to do this too, or the consequences would be dangerous. How powerful the mind's ability is, to shut down! How unbelievable! And how irresistable it still remains! It's about survival. Your mind can do incredible things to survive.

You wrote, and I have added my symptoms in capitals;
- chronic emptiness AND DARKNESS
- trying to find myself in things and people to no avail - YES, I GET BORED AND LOOK FOR THINGS ON THE OUTSIDE, AS A CHILD I FORMED STATIC IDEALS OF WHAT WOULD MAKE ME HAPPY, AND WHEN I GREW UP I LEARNT TO FEAR THEM IN A WAY I COULDN'T UNDERSTAND, SUCH AS A BEAUTIFUL PLACE, OR ARTISTIC, ATTRACTIVE MAN. I WOULD FORM EMPTY RELATIONSHIPS WITH PEOPLE WHO TICKED MY BOXES ON THE OUTSIDE, BUT WE FAILED TO HOLD ANY REAL CHEMISTRY, WHICH HELPED ME TO QUESTION THE EMPTINESS FURTHER. IN JOB INTERVIEWS, NOW - I AM TERRIFIED, BECAUSE AS A CHILD, I IDEALLISED THESE PEOPLE TO BE UNHUMANELY BRILLIANT, AND NOW THESE SITUATIONS MAKE ME DISASSOSIATE
- feelings of inferiority and incompetence - YES, SEE ABOVE. I THINK THERE IS NO POINT IN TRYING, SOMETIMES, WHATS THE POINT?
- desire to be helpful in order to feel a sense of existance and worth - YES, BECAUSE SOMETIMES I CANT COMPETE. I AM NOTHING, AND THIS PERSON/THING IS EVERYTHING, OR AT LEAST - IN THE STATIC IDEALS I HAVE FORMED TO MAKE ME HAPPY. SOME OF THESE IDEALS ARE THINGS THAT WOULD MAKE ME HAPPY, IF I WAS IN TOUCH WITH MYSELF. THEY ARE MY INTERESTS, BUT EXTERNAL
- inability to feel I exist YES, LIKE FLOATING MIST IN THE DAKRNESS
- invalidation of other people because they are normal and couldn't understand where I was coming from (which is kind of true as I have lost myself). I CAN ALSO BE VERY CRITICAL OF OTHERS, I FIND IT EASY TO BE CRITICAL OF OBJECTIVE THINGS AND NOT MYSELF, BECAUSE THEY ARE MORE REAL THAN ME. WHAT I FAIL TO REALISE, IS THAT THIS PERSON IS NOT THAT BEHAVIOUR, LIKE THE WAY I BEHAVE THAT WAY, BUT DONT EVEN NOTICE. I CAN MAKE 'SHELLS' OF OTHERS TOO, AS YOU HAVE QUOTED. WHEN I DO THIS, THEY JUST BECOME BEHAVIOUR, AND ITS EITHER RIGHT OR WRONG. WHEN IN TOUCH WITH MY TRUE NATURE, I AM ALSO IN TOUCH WITH THEIRS, AND I FAIL TO FIND FAULT, RATHER - THINGS I THINK THEY COULD SUBTLEY CHANGE, PERHAPS. IT WAS THE UNKNOWN I USED TO FEAR ABOUT OTHERS MOST, SO I WOULD FIND MYSELF WITH HORRIBLE PEOPLE, TO FALL BACK INTO MY CHILDHOOD. AT LEAST I COULD TRUST THEM IF I KNEW WHERE I STOOD. I WOULD PROJECT HORRORS ONTO OTHERS...THEY THINK BAD OF ME! - THEY DIDNT

** Phew, I feel like I've been yelling. When I was really unhealthy, I would have anxious thoughts. I felt like - all I was, was my anxiety, and that meant I could fear anything. Anything. If someone said dont step on a floortile or I'd die, I would believe it. I was preparing, not living. I had typical OCD intrusive thoughts too, that I almost felt a compulsive need to carry out, because it was all I could see, and I wanted contol, I wanted to feel.

To me, that would have been the ultimate self destruction, because my nature is very sensitive/caring to others by default. I chose suicide, when the crunch came to crunch. That should say it all, I wanted to destroy myself. Yet, I still get fears sometimes, doubt, I still get bored, ideals - hell, I even still disassociate sometimes just on a more subtle level.
Here's to health, I will say cheers to you, Rozanne, we are almost there!


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2008)

Wow, your really slingin tons of crack here.
Realizing posting mental disorders and symptoms on a site full of hypochondriacs is selling crack to kindergarten kids EVERYONE gets affected IN A NEGATIVE WAY, bad karma bad karma, ur destiny is going to be a ant next life LOLp

Anyway seriously; none of us are narcissistic more than the next guy.
Narcissism is healthy, you need it to survive, otherwise you wouldnt eat, shit, wash ur self, take care of urself, u'd die in 1week.
Everyone can relate to the fact that we search for ourselves in teen years and "find oursellves" in relationships.
you feel full when your with your "the one" love.
You are still mentally growing up into your 20's.
By age 25, most have "found" themselves or atleast "created" themselves, but u continue to grow all your life.
I for one felt full when i was with my girlfriend and less so without her, but I wasnt a dead robot I was full of life, dreaming.
Me no narcissist, neither are you, stop selling crack to kids


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Depersonalisation is a symptom of disorder. It's like the difference between "epilepsy" and "falling over".

There are many causes of depersonalisation. This is one of them. I think I have a right to mention a disorder on here which is known to involve an EARLY fracture in the body-ego relationship.

It is an open forum, and I don't believe I wrote that everyone has NPD. I wrote it was a theme of my life and something I'm trying to get over.


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## Universal (May 30, 2005)

I'm interested in this site. I think there are some interesting books on there too. Thanks for posting about it. I'm generally interested in Eastern Spirituality so I dig this kinda stuff.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2008)

Universal if u ever wanna get over DPDR and regain sanity and reality dont ever mess with easter philosophy, it's the most downright retarded worst type of pseudometaphysicalphilosopicalbullshit ever....

I warned you...

Brain scans on buddhist munks showed the "sense of self(part of your brain)" shuts down while meditating and this can become permanent(or chronic) by chronic meditation.
this is what they call "becoming one" with everything, or becoming "one" with god(same type of shit is displayed in prayer during scans).
So there you have it, the "ONESS" feeling is all a illusion your brain creates.
So if you wanna pursuit DPDR GOGOGO ENLIGHTENMENT, if you wanna live life(it's short enough as it is) KEEP THE FUCK AWAAY


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## Pollyanna 3098 (Dec 12, 2006)

For sale: enciclopedia Britannica $50

No longer needed as copeful knows everything.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

This is really interesting, is especially relate to this:



> a high proportion of people in psychotherapy have adapted to life with a narcissist and as a result have not developed healthy means of self-expression and self-directedness. That has been my clinical experience as well. (If the article link broken go here).
> 
> If you have a bad case of putting yourself down or of subordinating yourself in relationships, the severe narcissist will make a hell of a mess of your self-denial. If you had to keep your head down as a child in order to survive your family DO NOT look to rework this with a severely narcissistic partner or employer in adult life. Choose a therapist on site.


I certainly had to keep my head down to survive and dont have a healthy means of self expression and self-directness. I never considered myself a narcissist though because I always had good empathy with other people, but perhaps it is possible to have a narcissist mother and not become one yourself? perhaps this is the cause of dp?


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## Universal (May 30, 2005)

I don't want to create an argument but I think the kind of oneness Buddhist monks experience is something quite different from DP. I'm planning on buying a couple of those Diamond books. They look mucho interesanto.


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## Corduroy28 (Jun 21, 2007)

If NPD is the act of rejecting your true identity, adopting a new overly inflated ego in an attempt to subconciously overcompensate for a believed personality defect, where does this idea of Narcissistic emptiness come into play?

I looked at the site which rozanne posted about narcissistic emptiness and it seemed to have a lot of material relevant to DP, but it was material I've never heard of before under the discussion of narcissism. Of all the articles, papers, and definitions of narcissism which I've read, the topic of depersonalization has never once surfaced.

I'm just wondering what kind of legitimate proof that this site has that these two things are correlated. I'm ready to believe that they are, but the site has this kind of "new-agey" feel to it without any real scientific back-up that makes me hesitant to believe it.

Rozanne, I'm just wondering who the people behind this site are. That is to ask if they are medical professionals with a legitimate history, or if they're just a bunch of particularly introspective people who came up with a good idea.


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

This is ripped from 
http://www.ahalmaas.com/glossary/n/narc ... issues.htm

*Narcissistic Constellation*

We call this group of states, conditions and structures of the self, ?the narcissistic constellation.?

The disconnection of the self from its essential Presence manifests as a profound and deep wound to the self? Centrally, the narcissistic wound is caused by the decathexis of the Essential Identity.

Alienation from Essential Identity leads to the loss of the profound sense of value and preciousness intrinsic to the sense of one?s identity with Being. Value is a quality of Being which, when lost leads to a loss of self-esteem?

The alienation from the Essential Identity results in narcissistic emptiness. This feels like a deficient emptiness, the specific deficiency being the feeling of absence of the sense of self?

The emptiness and the wound make up one structure, the emptiness wound?

Reactions to this injury include narcissistic rage, envy and depression? 
The narcissistic injury, that is, the emptiness-wound and its various associated affects and reactions is covered over by the self-identity, through the identification with self-images and their associated affects.

The overall structure of self-identity is sometimes experienced as a shell around the deficient emptiness

One does not usually experience the shell directly as a shell ? The usual experience of what we are calling a shell is the sense of self characterized by a specific feeling of identity ?

The more narcissistic the person, in other words, the greater the distance from the Essential Identity ? indicating greater narcissistic injury in childhood ? the more her identity is based on the grandiose self. (The Point of Existence, pg 216)


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## Rozanne (Feb 24, 2006)

Hi Cords, 
First of all thanks for asking these questions. Even if you don't have NPD, it is an excellent disorder to study due to its strong themes on true identity and what constitutes Self.



> If NPD is the act of rejecting your true identity, adopting a new overly inflated ego in an attempt to subconciously overcompensate for a believed personality defect, where does this idea of Narcissistic emptiness come into play?


I think it's fair to say that NPD isn't so much a rejection of true identity, but non-flourishing of true identity.



> I looked at the site which rozanne posted about narcissistic emptiness and it seemed to have a lot of material relevant to DP, but it was material I've never heard of before under the discussion of narcissism. Of all the articles, papers, and definitions of narcissism which I've read, the topic of depersonalization has never once surfaced.


Well..you know what psychiatry is like. It has many inter-related disorders which often occur together. But body-ego is known to be effected in narcissism. I will find a reference for that.



> I'm just wondering what kind of legitimate proof that this site has that these two things are correlated.


It depends on the person. Certainly there are many different reasons for having dp. I wouldn't jump to conclusions. But if you are interested, one of the possibilities is NPD...similarly, Borderline Personality Disorder (which shares some themes with NPD) also has "transient depersonalisation" as a symptom. So there are lots of disorder where depersonalisation can be a co-morbid symptom. The reason why it is associated with narcissistic emptiness is presumable, the body-ego never fully developed...therefore the person is more easily skewed towards falseness or disintegration, disembodiment etc. I'm not a professional, I add...this is just what I see from the material. ...oh and narcissism is also a word for a "mechanism" in psychology. So narcissism doesn't have to be a pathological problem, but occurs naturally in each person also.



> I'm ready to believe that they are, but the site has this kind of "new-agey" feel to it without any real scientific back-up that makes me hesitant to believe it.


It is a spiritual site. But within that paradigm of spirituality, it seems pretty rigorous. I've also noticed that Almaas is quoted by a transpersonal psychologist and spiritual counsellor called Peter Sumner in Australia. He has a site called "The Seer" and I've enjoyed reading his blog there....so yes, it is spiritual but a far as spiritual things go, it is quite a rigorous site. Not all New Age is pseudo-science. Almaas doesn't invalidate science, he has merged psychological understanding in the context of mysticism and finding the true self. Whether one believes in spirit or not is another matter.



> Rozanne, I'm just wondering who the people behind this site are. That is to ask if they are medical professionals with a legitimate history, or if they're just a bunch of particularly introspective people who came up with a good idea.


Almaas has a Ph.D in Physics and after, went into psychology. He is a mystic. And all mystical knowledge is based on direct experience of the soul. So you can question when you need science to be a mystic or not...I would argue not. By for the sake of it...he has a Ph. D as well to show you that he isn't a complete pseudo-scientific fool writing garbage on the net.

This stuff is practised and used by transpersonal psychologists. It is not just a nice idea but it actually being used to rehabilitate people who have chosen to go down the transpersonal route, instead of the traditional Feudian route, which is "personal psychology">  Hope that helps at least put into context what the Almaas site is about for those who are interested in exploring his philosophies further.


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