# TLE/Relgious feelings connection? BBC



## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

I again do not dispute the spiritual in life. I don't know the answers. But this could explain the development of religions, and a result of evolution, thousands of years ago, when human beings became further intellectually aware of Self, death, etc.

I still believe that Faith, a need for the spiritual, etc. is hard-wired, in which case "eliminating religion" is not an answer. I don't know that it is possible.

It's dog eat dog out there. I'm stunned that the Palenstinian government has now broken apart ITSELF into two factions. It is a fight for power, land, resources, identity, tribalism.

Personal faith is something completely different.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/20 ... rain.shtml

Article too long to copy in its entirety.

*BBC - "God on the Brain"*

*"Rudi Affolter and Gwen Tighe have both experienced strong religious visions. He is an atheist; she a Christian. He thought he had died; she thought she had given birth to Jesus. Both have temporal lobe epilepsy.
*

Like other forms of epilepsy, the condition causes fitting but it is also associated with religious hallucinations. Research into why people like Rudi and Gwen saw what they did has opened up a whole field of brain science: neurotheology.

The connection between the temporal lobes of the brain and religious feeling has led one Canadian scientist to try stimulating them. (They are near your ears.) 80% of Dr Michael Persinger's experimental subjects report that an artificial magnetic field focused on those brain areas gives them a feeling of 'not being alone'. Some of them describe it as a religious sensation.

Prof Gregory Holmes, Dartmouth Medical School
His work raises the prospect that we are programmed to believe in god, that faith is a mental ability humans have developed or been given. And temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE) could help unlock the mystery.

Religious leaders

History is full of charismatic religious figures. Could any of them have been epileptics? The visions seen by Bible characters like Moses or Saint Paul are consistent with Rudi's and Gwen's, but there is no way to diagnose TLE in people who lived so long ago.

There are, though, more recent examples, like one of the founders of the Seventh Day Adventist Movement, Ellen White. Born in 1827, she suffered a brain injury aged 9 that totally changed her personality. She also began to have powerful religious visions.

Representatives of the Movement doubt that Ellen White suffered from TLE, saying her injury and visions are inconsistent with the condition, but neurologist Gregory Holmes believes this explains her condition....."

_Keep reading at the link ..._

*Read some interesting stuff in the article. I buy this theory. It is amazing what one can do when poking around with the brain. And damage to the brain reveals many amazing secrets, and understanding of NORMAL behavior.

Again, I am a skeptic, but I don't have the answers to anything. I believe spirituality is personal, and ritual can be very constructive.*


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## Guest (Jun 16, 2007)

Thank you for posting that. Even more of an eye opener.


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## Martinelv (Aug 10, 2004)

Absolutey Dreamer - you can wiggle a probe inside someones brain and they suddenly have intense religious experiences, even if they are atheist. What does that tell you?

Will will convert ye yet.


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## Pablo (Sep 1, 2005)

Martinelv said:


> Absolutey Dreamer - you can wiggle a probe inside someones brain and they suddenly have intense religious experiences, even if they are atheist. What does that tell you?


The question the scientists fail to address is whether such "religious" experiences are crucialy important for spirituality and the answer is no they are not, not in my opinion. Perhaps for some religions like Christianity these experiences are important, places like Lourdes in France are founded upon them, but in the scheme of things I dont think they are crucial.

If you presnted this evidence to a Buddhist they would just shrug their shoulders and ask the scientists to find where in the brain the one having the experiences is located? Where in the brain are "you" located? are you all over the brain or are you fluid from one part to the other? Where is consciousness? Scientists have been looking for a long time and have not found it, but Buddha found it thousands of years ago, science is still catching up. Buddhists have been having such "religious" experiences for decades but the advice given to those having them is forget them or ignore them, they are a distraction on the path and those who get absorbed or identifed with them are lost. This scientific evidence does nothing to discredit spiritual paths like Buddhism.


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## HalfAPerson (Aug 22, 2006)

Martinelv said:


> Absolutey Dreamer - you can wiggle a probe inside someones brain and they suddenly have intense religious experiences, even if they are atheist. What does that tell you?
> 
> Will will convert ye yet.


It tells me that someone could wiggle a probe inside our brains and trigger a lot of emotions. Does that mean that none of them are legitimate? If I start thinking along those lines then I imagine we're all androids. With chemicals. Mine are simply imbalanced. Which accounts for the fact that I can see that everything is meaningless sometimes and everything is everything at others. But no need to delve in to that bag of crazy.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

HalfAPerson said:


> Martinelv said:
> 
> 
> > Absolutey Dreamer - you can wiggle a probe inside someones brain and they suddenly have intense religious experiences, even if they are atheist. What does that tell you?
> ...


Dear Half,
No, not saying these feelings are not legitimate, but I find this fascinating. Again, I am interested in evolutionary neurology/psychiatry.

Also, it can explain certain phenomena in mental illness such as schizophrenia. One can make one hear voices, music, hallucinate various things doing this. It has helped neurologists avoid destroying parts of the brain during surgery.

I found it fascinating that in another paper I read, a woman w/epilespy or a tumor was being operated on. During the surgery she experienced DP, she experienced an OBE, she experienced a "spooky feeling that someone was underneath her bothering her."

The experiences are REAL.

And as noted there is no understanding what the religious reactions mean. I am curious.

And Martin, yes, these articles make me question, and question, and question, but I have not come to any clear conclusion. I want to have faith. I want that comfort. I'd like them to stick an electrode in my brain and cure me of this chronic Hell that NEVER lets up.

Again as many have said, spirituality is a personal experience, I have no problem with it. None.

There are neurologists of Faith, who have complete Faith in God, who still look into this. It does not take their Faith away.

But I use this to say, this is part of humanity. If it is, those who argue it should be eliminated are then promoting "lobotomizing" the bulk of the population -- yes YOU Martin 8), lol -- hence, I see it as proving this is PART of what makes us human.

I don't use it to either dispute nor prove spiritual feelings or what they mean. I don't know. I really don't know.

Sometimes I do get frightened that we may be merely the product of our own brains. But life is so ... amazing ... I can't accept that, fully. No offense intended with this.

Peace,
D


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## HalfAPerson (Aug 22, 2006)

Dreamer said:


> I don't use it to either dispute nor prove spiritual feelings or what they mean. I don't know. I really don't know.
> 
> Sometimes I do get frightened that we may be merely the product of our own brains. But life is so ... amazing ... I can't accept that, fully. No offense intended with this.
> 
> ...


Dreamer dear, you are one of the least offensive people I can think of  I really only included half of my ramble. "Sometimes I do get frightened that we may be merely the product of our own brains. But Life is so...amazing...I can't accept that fully." Neither can I.

I am "agnostic" and I know that I won't find lasting peace with any one religion or philosophy. However, I don't debase religion and/or spirituality in one fell swoop. That I can never know what the "truth" is what drives me bananas. So, from a logical perspective, I have to accept that I can't go buckwild on the religous thoughts since they cause me turmoil. Right now I can take comfort in thinking that there's SOMETHING out there bigger than me, whether it's the universe or God or whatever, but it doesn't matter what it is exactly.


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Bless you Half for your kind words.



HalfaPerson said:


> I am "agnostic" and I know that I won't find lasting peace with any one religion or philosophy. However, I don't debase religion and/or spirituality in one fell swoop. That I can never know what the "truth" is what drives me bananas. So, from a logical perspective, I have to accept that I can't go buckwild on the religous thoughts since they cause me turmoil. Right now I can take comfort in thinking that there's SOMETHING out there bigger than me, whether it's the universe or God or whatever, but it doesn't matter what it is exactly.


Amen.


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## PPPP (Nov 26, 2006)

It's fascinating. 
Science can show us so much about ourselves.

I agree though knowing that something is linked to a function of the brain doesn't make it less legitimate.
That's what we are after all. Love, hate, despair, & hope are all functions of the brain but they're as real as anything.

A friend of mine had part of her brain removed a few years ago and we could see the change. And it was frightening. 
I've been down that road of wondering what the point is, what makes us ourselves and what makes us more than robots. 
In the end I think it doesn't matter.
It's what we are and it's legitimate even if you can trace it all to the part of the brain you could poke to make it happen. Even if a surgeon can cut open your head and change you.


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## Scattered (Mar 8, 2005)

And that leads us to the conclusion that we are our brains and once our brains are changed then we are no longer the person we were before. The person we were before is dead, or not even dead, but that particular personality simply vanishes and ceases to exist while a new one is put in its place. It is only in this sense that I agree with Buddhism. There is no self, self is just a temporary manifestation of our biology, located nowhere specifically but contained in various areas of the brain that combine to form a personality state or pattern, a pattern which is similar enough from time to time to give the impression of permanence but ultimately proves to be malleable and illusory.

After this I diverge with the Buddhists. This aspect of Buddhism devoid of its spiritual and cultural trappings, attainments, and enlightened states, is just materialism. It is only when you add all of these other nonverifiable claims about reincarnation, enlightenment, and other mystical states, that Buddhism becomes a religion or even a worthwhile philosophy. The problem is that materialism already explains the world according to the facts that we know about it while Buddhism just builds on some of these scientific principles and adds in some sexy trinkets of wisdom to make it viable as a path. The fact that some of the scientific aspects of Buddhism were discovered thousands of years ago is impressive, but in no way verifies any of the other claims it makes.

Then there is the question of whether or not our emotions are viable in lieu of the knowledge that they are based primarily in a biology that can be tampered with. All I can say on this is that our emotions are useful for what they enable us to do, survive and reproduce. Beyond these simple concepts lies the realm of human interpretation. Romantic love itself is an invented concept. It exists biologically as a high produced by the co-mingling of various chemicals in our brains that encourage us to seek out and maintain mates long enough to have sex with them, have children, and then maybe take care of these offspring for a short time. Beyond these simple processes is the human interpretation of what it means to love, be loved, how one should act when in love, and beyond to the ideas of love as a spiritual experience bestowed on us by an all-loving god, etc.


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