# Procreation is the most selfish thing you can do!



## MrMortgage (Aug 26, 2005)

I've been thinking of this since I was in second grade! Now dont get me wrong, after all the crap I've been through in this life, nothing can be worth it all, and I wouldnt do it all over again if I could... I ask myself almost everday why I'm still here...Yet I still want to bring a kid in this world, and I dont know why...I guess its because its the natural thing to do...anyway.

Most of us in here would agree that this life is a struggle. There is more suffering in this world then there is not. The worst times in this life are not worth the best...yada yada yada.

Some of us here wish we were never born sometimes because, we wouldn't of known the difference being dead or alive...

*Here's the whole point of the post, you're child did not ask to be born, when you bring a child into this world you know exactly what youre bringing the child in here for, for youre pleasure, so you can love it, and say that you have a little version of you around. If you really love this little baby, then why would you even have it, why did you bring it into a world, where you know it was going to suffer? WHY?*

As I said before, for some supernatural reason, I still want to have a kid, but dang, this stuff has been on my mind for the past 15 years, just wanted to share my thoughts....What do you guys think?


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## MrMortgage (Aug 26, 2005)

Anyone??? If there is no God and when you die you die, then what? Why you bringing on more people to suffer?


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Bottom line, procreation is probably the strongest instinct we have. We don't bring children into the world for our own pleasure per se... if we didn't bring children into the world the species would perish.

All creatures on this Earth reproduce -- they are each here for a purpose, from fruit-flies, to wombats, to horses, etc.. We are creatures/animals.

It boils down in that case, IMHO, to instict, pure and simple. To survival.

However there are choices, conscous choices about bringing children into the world if one feels they can't care for them. But the biological imperative is so strong -- I know it in myself, and I have no children -- most people want children as a vessel for memories/histories/for hope for the future, etc. An immortality if you will.

I don't think it's selfish.

I have no children because of this illness -- many reasons. But it hurts, every day.

Maybe when you are older... I forgot how old you are, your feelings will change. They may not.

Some people really don't want children and that's fine too.

Some people should never have children and they do. That is very sad. As long as the child is wanted and loved and properly cared for, great.

But how do we change the horrors of many non-Western, "3rd World", whatever you want to call them countries, where again, having children is an instinct, where birth control is prohibited, yet there isn't even enough food for a child.

Well, I believe we are animals/bottome line. Complex ones, and if we didn't have children, well there's be no human race.

Best,
D


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

Oh, LOL, and I don't think we can blame mothers in labor. The whole thing starts a tad earlier than that, we um, a man and a women get together after a few drinks........... 8)

It takes two, baby, to make a baby. 8)


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2005)

MrMortgage said:


> I
> *Here's the whole point of the post, you're child did not ask to be born, when you bring a child into this world you know exactly what youre bringing the child in here for, for youre pleasure, so you can love it, and say that you have a little version of you around. If you really love this little baby, then why would you even have it, why did you bring it into a world, where you know it was going to suffer? WHY?*


Not all pregnancies are intentional and not everyone believes abortion is okay. Women do get pregnant even when using birth control. In fact some women get pregnant just by washing their underwear in the same machine as a man's.

As far as having children being selfish... I see what you're saying, but honestly taking care of a child and being kind and patient with that child is a very selfless act... and a thankless, socially undervalued job. Maybe what you're saying is that to have YOUR OWN child is selfish, and everyone should just adopt already existing children?

But no, I would not say that taking care of or raising children is a selfish thing. It's actually quite the opposite, and requires you to put your own sanity and needs aside a great deal.


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## rainboteers (Apr 5, 2005)

littlecrocodile said:


> In fact some women get pregnant just by washing their underwear in the same machine as a man's.


That IS a joke.... right? :shock:


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## MrMortgage (Aug 26, 2005)

Wow!!! I like these respones, keep em' coming!

All good points, *my outlook on the whole thing is just to think about having kids a different way... The same way people say God is all love and caring and really he isn't, I think overall God is more about love then evil, but it's like 60/40.

Same thing with children, I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND THE REASON FOR HAVING KIDS, IF NOT HUMANS WOULD DIE AND SOMETIMES I THINK WE SHOULD LOL BUT SERIOUSLY THAT'S WHY IT'S INSTINCT (ANIMAL INSTINCT)

But overall I hope people can see what I'm saying, and see my first post with an open mind.*


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## MrMortgage (Aug 26, 2005)

OH also I wanted to make clear that I'm pro human birth life or whatever...even though I think I hate this life more then I like it I still want to have a kid, in fact if I meet the right girl and she wanted a kid really bad right away I would help her with that, in theory this time next year I can be a father, and proabably be loving it.

It's not a question of "when you get older you'll understand why we have kids" type of thing, becuase I want a kid now!!! And I dont know why!

*BUT NOTICE WHAT I SAID, "*I*" WANT A KID. THE KEY WORD IS "*I*".

IT'S OBVIOUS THAT THERE IS ALREADY TOO MANY PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD, AND IF IT WAS REALLY ALL ABOUT SURVIVAL WE ARE SMART ENOUGH TO KNOW WHEN WE NEED MORE CHILDREN.

MAYBE 1,500 YEARS AGO IT WAS ABOUT SURVIVAL BUT ITS NOT ANYMORE. HAVING A CHILD IS A SELFISH THING FOR THE FACT THAT WE WANT A KID OR I WANT A KID. THE KID NEVER ASKED TO BE BORN, AND HAVING A KID YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO TAKE CARE OF IT, SO YOU CANT SAY "I'M SO CARING AND UNSELFISH BECAUSE I'M DEVOTING ALL MY TIME TO ANOTHER LIFE"

DONT FORGET YOU WANTED THE KID AND YOU KNOW WHAT COMES WITH THE TERRITORY.

I THINK LITTLE CROCADILE MADE A GOOD POINT, WE SHOULD ADOPT, NOW THAT WOULDNT BE SELFISH.

BUT HAVING ONE ON YOURE OWN BECAUSE YOU WANT ONE, WHEN PEOPLE ARE GIVING KIDS AWAY FOR FREE, WELL....YOU GET THE POINT.

HAVING A KID IS A VERY SELFISH THING, PEOPLE JUST DONT TALK ABOUT IT CAUSE ITS THOUGHT TO BE ONE OF THE GREATEST THINGS EVER! AND WHEN SOMEONE STARTS TO QUESTION HOW GREAT IT REALLY IS PEOPLE GET WEIRD.

KEEP THE COMMENTS COMING, I WANT TO HEAR EVERYONES THOUGHTS, FEEL FREE TO PUT SOME OF MY POINTS DOWN, I WONT GET HURT, DONT FORGET I WANT KIDS OF MY OWN, MY SELFISH ASS LOL  *


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2005)

Mr. Mortgage, I have looked at things the way you do and there are other views, too. No matter how I look at it, I do think wanting a child is selfish, but that doesn't make it wrong. (can't explain that!) I've been reading Alice Miller the last few days and that woman is brilliant. She never overtly states that people are selfish for procreating, but she sees into the f*d up things we do as parents - every single one of them. DON'T have kids till you've read some of her books. It'll make you see people in a completely different way. At first I was so depressed reading her stuff, I cried all the way through and had to keep putting the book down for hours while I recovered. But she really understands something about humans that maybe no one else does. I've been wanting to read "Drama of the Gifted Child " for years, but never got past the first few pages, it was so painful. Yesterday I bought 5 more of her books to read. She has a lot to say about the pain of living.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2005)

Since I read Alice Miller's views on people, I am changing the way I think about and react to others. I called a business about something today and the man was nervous, defensive and kept interrupting. Instead of my usual reaction, which would have been defensive, angry and maybe a little haughty (I'm not proud of it), I stayed calm with no effort. It popped into my mind that he must have developed anxiety as a very young child. When he couldn't answer my question, he felt anxious and probably had no idea why he acted that way. I didn't feel frustrated during or after the call, just called another business. Now I wonder if I'll become more patient when I'm driving in heavy traffic. THAT would be an improvement.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2005)

Since I read Alice Miller's views on people, I am changing the way I think about and react to others. I called a business about something today and the man was nervous, defensive and kept interrupting. Instead of my usual reaction, which would have been defensive, angry and maybe a little haughty (I'm not proud of it), I stayed calm with no effort. It popped into my mind that he must have developed anxiety as a very young child. When he couldn't answer my question, he felt anxious and probably had no idea why he acted that way. I didn't feel frustrated during or after the call, just called another business. Now I wonder if I'll become more patient when I'm driving in heavy traffic. THAT would be an improvement.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2005)

mrmortgage, I am also pro human birth life, but I do understand what you're saying.

Rainbo, I'd like to say I was joking, but that's how I conceived my last five children .


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

littlecrocodile said:


> mrmortgage, I am also pro human birth life, but I do understand what you're saying.
> 
> Rainbo, I'd like to say I was joking, but that's how I conceived my last five children .


LOL.

Jeez, sorry, sometimes I take things far too literally. Sorry. I also understand what you're saying.

I just don't see selfish as the word. Maybe "irresponsible." ACH, I'm always splitting hairs.

And yes, I very much like the idea of adoption, and that takes as much love as having one's own child.

Sorry I keep typing this wrong: EDIT:
Funny, my parents should NOT have had me -- that's for certain. But I don't feel I wish I was never born. I simply wish I wasn't born with anxiety, depression, and in particular DP/DR. It seems if I had my mental health, I'd be a relatively happy person. I really do.

I still think having a child is the most loving and sexy thing one could do. Call me a romantic idiot, LOL.

Sorry.
D


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## maria (Oct 28, 2004)

> if we didn't bring children into the world the species would perish.


But in the end (at least in three billion years) our species is going to perish no matter what. So that's not a valid reason to give birth, but our bodies don't realize it.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2005)

Dreamer said:


> I still think having a child is the most loving and sexy thing one could do. Call me a romantic idiot, LOL.
> 
> Sorry.
> D


You're not a romantic idiot-- you're pro human birth life .


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## enngirl5 (Aug 10, 2004)

> Bottom line, procreation is probably the strongest instinct we have.


I think I'm missing this gene. Because I'm in no hurry to have kids. I want them, just not now or anytime soon.


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## MrMortgage (Aug 26, 2005)

I love this guys! Keep the discussion going, people are starting to see where I'm coming from!

It's human nature, but humans dont like to go against the grain, and people that try to go against the grain get stoned to death.

I came out with a sensitive topic, and if I didnt make good points I would of been stoned to death by mean comments, but all the comments to this post have been really interesting and well thought out...nothing negative from anyone!

It kind of makes everyone think about why we do what we do...Humans are easily convinced that what they do is normal... If everyone started to walk around naked, at first it would be soooo weird but afterwhile everyone would get used to it and 50 years from now walking around naked would be normal!

No matter how unique we all try to be, for the most part we all conform to the masses...that's just how it is.


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## agentcooper (Mar 10, 2005)

true, true! i wish we all did walk around naked (at least in the summer)...i'd be much more comfy that way. :wink:


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## Dreamer (Aug 9, 2004)

maria said:


> > if we didn't bring children into the world the species would perish.
> 
> 
> But in the end (at least in three billion years) our species is going to perish no matter what. So that's not a valid reason to give birth, but our bodies don't realize it.


Despite the fact that the concept of survival seems "primitive" out of date, ancienty -- it is in our makeup. You can't eliminate a drive that evolved millions of years ago.

An instinct for sex doesn't just "go away" and I doubt it ever will.

The instinct for fear still serves us, but sometimes goes bad. Common instincts we STILL have can go awry. Example the Flight or Fight response, which may have gone screwy in SOME us (here on this Board possibly) and causes us to have DP/DR when we DON'T NEED IT for survival purposes.

*The RECENT (in comparison to the whole of the evolutionary process) invention of the automobile did not keep deers from standing still when they get frightened.*

Deers still "stand in the headlights" in a somewhat of a dissociative state and get run over by cars. Not a very good survival instinct but it's still there.

Instinct for survival is powerful in us to this day. It's simply a fact, neither right nor wrong, good nor bad.

Best,
D


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2005)

Mrmortgage, I think you should change the title from "childbirth" to "having children," or, "procreating." Because I'm not sure how anything that feels like your body is being ripped in half and stomped on by venemous dinosaurs can be selfish. And that's what childbirth feels like!


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## sleepingbeauty (Aug 18, 2004)

agentcooper said:


> true, true! i wish we all did walk around naked (at least in the summer)...i'd be much more comfy that way. :wink:


didnt you say you were a middle school teacher agentcooper? dang.. i bet your boy students would be glad to skip their summer vacations and have class all year long! :lol:



> I'm not sure how anything that feels like your body is being ripped in half and stomped on by venemous dinosaurs can be selfish. And that's what childbirth feels like!


that clinches it. put me down on the unselfish list NOW. :?


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## Homeskooled (Aug 10, 2004)

> didnt you say you were a middle school teacher agentcooper? dang.. i bet your boy students would be glad to skip their summer vacations and have class all year long!


Sleepy, you have way too much testosterone. Agentcooper, you have any students with crushes on you yet? Gotta watch out for those middleschool guys....hormones run amok.



> I'm not sure how anything that feels like your body is being ripped in half and stomped on by venemous dinosaurs can be selfish. And that's what childbirth feels like!
> 
> that clinches it. put me down on the unselfish list NOW.


Awwww......is wittle sweeping beauty _scaaawwweeddd_? Notwithstanding, I think everybody thinks that, but inevitably the payoff is probably worth it from from the Mom's standpoint....

Peace
Homeskooled


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## agentcooper (Mar 10, 2005)

Homeskooled said:


> Agentcooper, you have any students with crushes on you yet? Gotta watch out for those middleschool guys....hormones run amok.


if by "crushes" you mean that they want to make my every moment with them as difficult as possible...then yes, i'd say that a good 50 percent of them have a huge crush on me. :lol: middle school...ggrrrr!


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## Monkeydust (Jan 12, 2005)

The problem's in one of your premises. You say that a child's more likely to have suffer than to have a "good life" which isn't necessarily true.


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## Milan (May 29, 2005)

> The problem's in one of your premises. You say that a child's more likely to have suffer than to have a "good life" which isn't necessarily true


Well said :!:


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## peacedove (Aug 15, 2004)

MrMortgage said:


> *Here's the whole point of the post, you're child did not ask to be born, when you bring a child into this world you know exactly what youre bringing the child in here for, for youre pleasure, so you can love it, and say that you have a little version of you around. If you really love this little baby, then why would you even have it, why did you bring it into a world, where you know it was going to suffer? WHY?*


I've thought about this a lot. It seems kinda cruel to me to have children. I always tell my therapist that I never asked to be here, it's not fair I was thrown into this. It would suck if someday I had a kid and she ended up saying the same things. And... I'm confused about the whole God thing. If there is a God and what I've been told about him is true than I definitely don't want to bring a child into this world cuz there's too good a chance it will be damned to hell. Narrow is the path to righteousness right?

And then us creating a child can be compared to God creating the human race in general... I think it was incredibly selfish of God to create us knowing we would all suffer. I also think it's cruel to bring a baby into this torturous world for the same reason.



Monkeydust said:


> The problem's in one of your premises. You say that a child's more likely to have suffer than to have a "good life" which isn't necessarily true.


If I'm plagued by painful mental illness and so is my boyfriend then I think the chances are pretty high that my kid is gonna be a wreck. It's hard to concieve the idea of this "good life" you speak of. Does anyone really have a good life? Or is it just that people are good at pretending everythings just fine when it really isn't? I feel the pain, I see the suffering. I rarely, if ever, see truly happy people. Is there really such a thing as "good life"? If there is it seems there's a slim chance of being blessed with it.

And yet, a part of me still wants to have children. But I know I'd be a horrible mother anyways. I can barely take care of myself and my pets.


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## peacedove (Aug 15, 2004)

maria said:


> But in the end (at least in three billion years) our species is going to perish no matter what. So that's not a valid reason to give birth, but our bodies don't realize it.


Another reason I would feel bad about having children. One day this world will end and if I have children and my children have children... well then I will have family that's gonna have to suffer through the end of time. And even if the world doesn't end... look at what it's coming to. My great great great grandchildren will be living in sh*t. We're using up all our natural resources so fast there will be nothing left for them. Their lives will be worse than ours.


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## MrMortgage (Aug 26, 2005)

peacedove said:


> Narrow is the path to righteousness right?


Very true! And that's why Jesus came down to save us crack pots, through Jesus we are righteous!


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2005)

I would never bring a child into this messed up world, ever. It's sentencing him/her to a life of suffering and unhapiness. This is, the age of unhappiness isn't it? Prozac nation right? Trapped in a prison of genes. I know, because i am, and some of us on this post are as well.

"Your children are not your children. / They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself." -Kahlil Gibran

Think about that quote, let it settle...

-Eros


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2005)

Hey, that's used in a song by Sweet Honey in the Rock. Very pretty song!

Your Children are not your children. 
They are the sons and the daughters 
Of life's longing for itself. 
They come through you, 
But they are not from you, 
And though they are with you, 
They belong not to you.

You can give them your love, 
But not your thoughts. 
They have their own thoughts. 
They have their own thoughts. 
You can house their bodies, 
But not their souls, 
For their souls dwell in a place of tomorrow, 
Which you cannot visit, 
Not even in your dreams.

You can strive to be like them, 
But you cannot make them just like you. 
Strive to be like them, 
But you cannot make them just like you.


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## MrMortgage (Aug 26, 2005)

Eros said:


> I would never bring a child into this messed up world, ever. It's sentencing him/her to a life of suffering and unhapiness. This is, the age of unhappiness isn't it? Prozac nation right? Trapped in a prison of genes. I know, because i am, and some of us on this post are as well.
> 
> "Your children are not your children. / They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
> 
> ...


True, true!


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